Not going to read through 80 pages of this to check if it has been said before, but I have come up with a surprisingly effective strategy due to playing a day of low PL games using just the starter set.
There were several missions where I needed to get my Wraithguard around the board due them being my only infantry squad. Whilst I did make use of webway portals, I also positioned them in a way that would allow me to use the 6" advance stratagem AND the Fire-and-Fade stratagem on them. Although it wasn't easy for them to get to objectives, once I got them there they did not get dislodged at all. Combined with some Quickens once I get some Warlocks, I can relatively easily put my Wraithguard in the most inconvenient place possible and force my opponents tocome to the, rather than just trying to avoid them.
Obviously Wave Serpents are a great delivery system too, but you can't spend the whole game inside one, and this made them surprisingly good at getting around the board independently. People thought they were safe and really, really weren't. It used up CPs for sure, but really forced people to react to me in ways they did not expect to have to.
I think you have too many points tied up in wraith units, and not enough tied up in skyweavers. Word of the Phoenix is kind of a waste being cast on 2 bikes. I'd drop two units of Wraith (especially the one in the Webway) and use those points to increase two units of skyweavers to 6 models each. Then you can place one of those in the webway if you like to protect it, while ensuring you can maximize the protection on the other unit (i.e. implement lightning fast reactions). On Turn 2, you can drop in the other unit and rain down thunder, by getting the first unit to within 7" of a unit it should be able to kill, and using word of the phoenix on the DS unit.
I think you have too many points tied up in wraith units, and not enough tied up in skyweavers. Word of the Phoenix is kind of a waste being cast on 2 bikes. I'd drop two units of Wraith (especially the one in the Webway) and use those points to increase two units of skyweavers to 6 models each. Then you can place one of those in the webway if you like to protect it, while ensuring you can maximize the protection on the other unit (i.e. implement lightning fast reactions). On Turn 2, you can drop in the other unit and rain down thunder, by getting the first unit to within 7" of a unit it should be able to kill, and using word of the phoenix on the DS unit.
Well im only going to own 6 bikes, so making a unit of 6 is fine but it wont be a legal detachment.
Edit: Also surprised you'd drop the webway Wraithcannons, as they are pretty much going to be the most reliable kill button in the army, as I can just deploy them in range of whatever I need killed on turn 2 or 3.
I agree it's a lot of points on wraiths though, but the only wraith unit I don't already own are the wraithblades so they'd be the first to go. I did want to make a set though as I find the models cool.
Shame 15 wraithguard/blades aren't feasible in one list, would be a cool list imo.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Hopefully you guys don't mind me interjecting with a few questions; How good are the FW Shadow Spectres outside of being pretty models? They seem like really maneuverable MEQ killers but they're quite pricey in terms of points and they seem to be in competition with Shining Spears. They do have an interesting gimmick of additional hits with shooting so what are people's thoughts on them?
Then just a quick question for Banshees and Scorpions: are they worth playing?
Shadow spectres are decent, good at taking down infantry but a bit expensive and fragile, they require careful use but are dangerous. They're hard hitting skirmishers, at least that's the way I see them.
I like banshees, more as a disruptive unit usually, unless you're fighting guard or something equally squishy, they're great for charging things with flamers etc or to shut down a tank. I usually run a squad of seven in a wave serpent with five fire dragons. The dragons jump out and shoot whilst the banshees charge in to either shut down whatever the dragons shot at or to prevent a counter attack via charge or gunfire.
Scorpions seem best used in a shooting army, I've run a couple of squads in an alaitoc gunline list and they're handy for popping up on objectives in later turns. They don't do a lot offensively but with a 2+ save in cover they can take a bit of shifting.
Cheers, yeah, only reason I'm asking is because I love the models but I don't want to run them if they're not good enough.
Banshees suffer with S3 and they need to get the charge.
I always have a soft spot for scorpions and I'd like to find a place for them in this edition, but much like the last it seems they aren't quite there.
Re about jinx casting - > I feel the best combo is Farseer + Warlock (bike or not). Then use the +1 casting strat. Now you have a wp 6 doom and jinx.
Also if you want to go crazy against infantry in casting range. Executioner on a 6 and smite that does d6 on a 10+. Costs another 1 cp to cast 3 powers with a Farseer but it can be devastating.
Well im only going to own 6 bikes, so making a unit of 6 is fine but it wont be a legal detachment.
Edit: Also surprised you'd drop the webway Wraithcannons, as they are pretty much going to be the most reliable kill button in the army, as I can just deploy them in range of whatever I need killed on turn 2 or 3.
I agree it's a lot of points on wraiths though, but the only wraith unit I don't already own are the wraithblades so they'd be the first to go. I did want to make a set though as I find the models cool.
Shame 15 wraithguard/blades aren't feasible in one list, would be a cool list imo.
Hear you on the bikes, but he does have a point of not wasting Word of the Phoenix on 2 bikes. Simply pay a CP to bring a unit of 6 in as an Auxiliary Detachment.
On the wraithcannons, without a spiritseer nearby to use the strategem, they will not get the job done (I have used them many times and to be effective from deep strike alone you would need at least 8 of them).
I would keep them in a wave serpent
Well im only going to own 6 bikes, so making a unit of 6 is fine but it wont be a legal detachment.
Edit: Also surprised you'd drop the webway Wraithcannons, as they are pretty much going to be the most reliable kill button in the army, as I can just deploy them in range of whatever I need killed on turn 2 or 3.
I agree it's a lot of points on wraiths though, but the only wraith unit I don't already own are the wraithblades so they'd be the first to go. I did want to make a set though as I find the models cool.
Shame 15 wraithguard/blades aren't feasible in one list, would be a cool list imo.
Hear you on the bikes, but he does have a point of not wasting Word of the Phoenix on 2 bikes. Simply pay a CP to bring a unit of 6 in as an Auxiliary Detachment.
On the wraithcannons, without a spiritseer nearby to use the strategem, they will not get the job done (I have used them many times and to be effective from deep strike alone you would need at least 8 of them).
I would keep them in a wave serpent
Spending a CP when I would only have 8 is a heavy price to pay, though as I'm now thinking of having just 2 wraith squads in the serpents it means I'm not currently spending any points on webway strikes. So an aux detachment is an option I'll keep in mind.
Also thinking of not running ynnari, and sticking to a Ulthwe detachment with a Harlequin support. Seeing how the points line up though.
Edit: List draft part 3 - the draftening.
Battallion (Craftworld)
Farseer + 5x Wraithguard with Wraithcannon (in Wave Serpent 1)
Spiritseer + 5x Wraithguard with D-Scythes (in Wave Serpent 2)
Totals up to 1950, though the solitaire is an afterthought for giggles and if there's a more interesting and fun use for the last 150 points I'm sure I can give it up for something.
Only 8CP though, and not much in the way of screens or chaff. But I only aim for casual fun lists anyway, I just want it to at least put up a fight.
keep the Spiritseer with the Cannon guard, they need the reroll 1s (or all with strategem) to hit, not the scythes.
I would still get haywier bikes. Drop the second troupe of harlies to get them in. Might want to think about a Shadowseer too. With the hemlocks close by, there are plenty of mortal wounds to happen with the grenade launcher etc
So I've finally decided on my third army. I play Deathwatch for Imperium and Thousand Sons for Chaos. I've decided to start my Craftworld Eldar army, and I'm dead excited.
I played 2e as a kid and was in love with my small eldar force - don't know why it's taken me this long to get going with a new version, but there you go. One advantage is that my painting and conversion skills are good enough now that I can make a really good looking force, so I'm going to take my time and get them right. Wake the Dead pushed me over the edge, as it strikes me as such a great backbone for a CE force - I've split two boxes with marine-playing friends.
So I have my guardian webway bomb, 2 wave serpents, 2 spirit seers and the option to run wraithguard. I have 2 ranger squads on the way. I'll be buying 3 Fire Prisms and a Hemlock soon enough, as they seem like the central fire-base units for CW.
But can I get your opinions on the best way to run the Avatar? I know he's suboptimal, but screw that, you can only let mathematics determine your lists to a certain extent. The guy is an absolute boss, and the Young King is one of my favourite aspects of the Eldar elegy/desperation identity. So if you were in my shoes, how would you build around him?
A few obvious approaches would be Biel-Tan Banshees and Lances for court of the young king strat, 2x20 Guardians to leverage his morale buff, maybe falcon's swiftness on him to help him keep up with faster elements. What would be your choice of units to help the guy out, or to benefit from his great, but limited, buff? I look at Abaddon and wonder if Khaine might just need a butt load of Ulthwe Guardians mobbing alongside him.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble and thanks for any ideas you might have.
Falcon's swiftness is pretty essential for the avatar if you ask me, being able to advance and shoot gives him a 10-15 inch movement which is pretty quick really.
I'd personally run the two units of Wraithblades with swords in serpents alongside the avatar. They hit pretty hard on the charge, especially in a iyanden force with the psytronome and the stategy to buff the spiritseers buff to 12".
Might be worth having either some banshees or spears to get off a turn one charge if possible to disrupt your opponent until your Wraithblades and avatar move in to put the beat down.
Well im only going to own 6 bikes, so making a unit of 6 is fine but it wont be a legal detachment.
Edit: Also surprised you'd drop the webway Wraithcannons, as they are pretty much going to be the most reliable kill button in the army, as I can just deploy them in range of whatever I need killed on turn 2 or 3.
I agree it's a lot of points on wraiths though, but the only wraith unit I don't already own are the wraithblades so they'd be the first to go. I did want to make a set though as I find the models cool.
Shame 15 wraithguard/blades aren't feasible in one list, would be a cool list imo.
Hear you on the bikes, but he does have a point of not wasting Word of the Phoenix on 2 bikes. Simply pay a CP to bring a unit of 6 in as an Auxiliary Detachment.
On the wraithcannons, without a spiritseer nearby to use the strategem, they will not get the job done (I have used them many times and to be effective from deep strike alone you would need at least 8 of them).
I would keep them in a wave serpent
Spending a CP when I would only have 8 is a heavy price to pay, though as I'm now thinking of having just 2 wraith squads in the serpents it means I'm not currently spending any points on webway strikes. So an aux detachment is an option I'll keep in mind.
A detachment can only be Ynnari if it includes one of the three characters. So an aux detachment of Skyweavers wouldn't be Ynnari.
kingheff wrote: Falcon's swiftness is pretty essential for the avatar if you ask me, being able to advance and shoot gives him a 10-15 inch movement which is pretty quick really.
I'd personally run the two units of Wraithblades with swords in serpents alongside the avatar. They hit pretty hard on the charge, especially in a iyanden force with the psytronome and the stategy to buff the spiritseers buff to 12".
Might be worth having either some banshees or spears to get off a turn one charge if possible to disrupt your opponent until your Wraithblades and avatar move in to put the beat down.
I like it. Doesn't sound particularly bleeding edge competitive, but with the psytronome I can see wraithblades being quite surprisingly nasty. Maybe one with D-scythes and one with swords, as the psytronome only hits one unit right?
kingheff wrote: Falcon's swiftness is pretty essential for the avatar if you ask me, being able to advance and shoot gives him a 10-15 inch movement which is pretty quick really.
I'd personally run the two units of Wraithblades with swords in serpents alongside the avatar. They hit pretty hard on the charge, especially in a iyanden force with the psytronome and the stategy to buff the spiritseers buff to 12".
Might be worth having either some banshees or spears to get off a turn one charge if possible to disrupt your opponent until your Wraithblades and avatar move in to put the beat down.
I like it. Doesn't sound particularly bleeding edge competitive, but with the psytronome I can see wraithblades being quite surprisingly nasty. Maybe one with D-scythes and one with swords, as the psytronome only hits one unit right?
I'm away from the book at the moment so can't remember exactly off hand how the psytronome works. Personally I'd use the cannons rather than the scythes for the longer range and bigger potential damage output, either way you won't go too far wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do you guys get on against dark eldar? I've had two games at 1500 pts at my local gw shop recently and got soundly beaten both times. Admittedly the dice were definitely against me last night but the dark eldar seem comparable in effectiveness but at roughly two thirds the price. The other player had, I think, four raiders with three ten man squads of warriors with dark lance and blaster, a squad of ten wyches plus lillith, two archons and three ravagers.
I was running alaitoc. I had two falcons with 5 dire avengers inside each, two wave serpents with a combination of two squads of five banshees, five dire avengers and seven fire dragons plus a double bright lance wraithlord. I had a farseer, a bonesinger and a warlock skyrunner. I was hoping to present a very resilient force with everyone in transports or a tank or similar.
He seized initiative after I rolled a seven to start first, kind of summed up my day with the dice, he just sped up the table started by popping a falcon and the avengers inside and it carried on from there. I know my list wasn't exactly super competitive but I'm not sure what list I can put together since they just seem so much more point efficient than craftworlds.
Only speaking from vs experience here, but what about a couple of autohitting hemlocks+jinx? That should smear a raider every turn, and be out of range on t1 if you lose initiative. I've never see a wraithlord makes its points back in this edition, and a straight swap would net you +100pts to spend too. Again, this is just from watching and playing against CWE.
zerosignal wrote: "As for Jinx, its Warp Charge 7, which means it will only go off 50% of the time."
58.3%
Don't forget the Command re-roll. I'd bet that ups the chances quite a bit. It does for me at least, using it to reroll the lowest of the 2 dice.
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Jinx is still Warp Charge 7 and only goes off 50% of the time statistically. Sure, one can improve the chances slightly (assuming you have the CP or haven't spent a CP to perform a re-roll already that phase). Don't treat warlocks like they are Farseers and have built in free re-roll options. There is a cost to that re-roll both in terms of CP and the limiting of the option to use that CP elsewhere.
On 2D6, Jinx has a 57.1429% chance of going off without any re-rolls of any kind. This is because there is 21 different 2d6 outcomes, and 12 of them = 7+.
The Biel-Tan relic is very very useful for casting those critical powers, but, I feel it only works in certain lists or Ynnari. I personally much prefer to use the +1 to cast stratagem when a Farseer and Warlock are within 6” of each other. This essentially gives you a 71.428% chance of casting Jinx without a re-roll.
As for Wraiths, I just wish most of the units weren’t so damn expensive!
36 combinations (6^2) , 21 are 7+, 21/36 = 58.3%
Just a general (pedantic) note, if you're going to say 'goes off XXX % of the time statistically', make sure you use correct probabilities.
I'm not very good at mathematics, so probabilities and statistical analysis are a bit of a stretch for me, but there are plenty of online tables, resources etc which can calculate things for you.
grouchoben wrote: Only speaking from vs experience here, but what about a couple of autohitting hemlocks+jinx? That should smear a raider every turn, and be out of range on t1 if you lose initiative. I've never see a wraithlord makes its points back in this edition, and a straight swap would net you +100pts to spend too. Again, this is just from watching and playing against CWE.
Hemlocks are nasty, but somewhat predictable and at 200+ points they get costly fast. They absolutely have a place in a lot (read: a great many) of lists, but depending on what else you're taking their points and role may be better allocated to other things.
luke1705 wrote: I'm also debating if I should make my Harlequin detachment Ynnari. Trying to pilot a list similar to the one that Sean Nayden won a GT with recently:
zerosignal wrote: "As for Jinx, its Warp Charge 7, which means it will only go off 50% of the time."
58.3%
Don't forget the Command re-roll. I'd bet that ups the chances quite a bit. It does for me at least, using it to reroll the lowest of the 2 dice.
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Jinx is still Warp Charge 7 and only goes off 50% of the time statistically. Sure, one can improve the chances slightly (assuming you have the CP or haven't spent a CP to perform a re-roll already that phase). Don't treat warlocks like they are Farseers and have built in free re-roll options. There is a cost to that re-roll both in terms of CP and the limiting of the option to use that CP elsewhere.
On 2D6, Jinx has a 57.1429% chance of going off without any re-rolls of any kind. This is because there is 21 different 2d6 outcomes, and 12 of them = 7+.
The Biel-Tan relic is very very useful for casting those critical powers, but, I feel it only works in certain lists or Ynnari. I personally much prefer to use the +1 to cast stratagem when a Farseer and Warlock are within 6” of each other. This essentially gives you a 71.428% chance of casting Jinx without a re-roll.
As for Wraiths, I just wish most of the units weren’t so damn expensive!
36 combinations (6^2) , 21 are 7+, 21/36 = 58.3%
Just a general (pedantic) note, if you're going to say 'goes off XXX % of the time statistically', make sure you use correct probabilities.
I'm not very good at mathematics, so probabilities and statistical analysis are a bit of a stretch for me, but there are plenty of online tables, resources etc which can calculate things for you.
Well, 63% of the time, I am 110% correct statistically...
grouchoben wrote: Only speaking from vs experience here, but what about a couple of autohitting hemlocks+jinx? That should smear a raider every turn, and be out of range on t1 if you lose initiative. I've never see a wraithlord makes its points back in this edition, and a straight swap would net you +100pts to spend too. Again, this is just from watching and playing against CWE.
Hemlocks are really good - I perfer crimson hunter exarchs personally. Cheaper - easier to keep alive - about the same damage output.
Xenomancers wrote: I perfer crimson hunter exarchs personally. Cheaper - easier to keep alive - about the same damage output.
The range difference is significant. A pair of CHEs can bracket the entire board, and their loadout is flexible enough (I prefer the starcannon variant for pure versatility, but they make excellent tank hunters with the dual brightlance) to threaten just about everything.
I find the main problem is keeping my screen alive/effective against the warriors and raider combo. He can march up and dish out a lot of firepower because of the open topped raiders. The fact that all his vehicles have a 5+ invulnerable save makes them annoying to take down because my tanks get no save against his dark Lance's whereas my heavy guns get stopped one third of the time. I doomed and jinxed the raider with the wyches which worked well but that's only once per round and not guaranteed. Normally I run two prisms rather than the falcons but wanted to keep my troops safe.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found the wraithlord reasonably effective, he scored a couple of hits with his lances and chopped down three wyches and a couple of warriors too. He wasn't that big a target so escaped the punishment which focused on the falcons first, then the serpents.
I think the exarch Vs hemlock debate comes down to the list, they're both great units, one favours a long range shooty army, the other a more aggressive advancing army.
bullyboy wrote: keep the Spiritseer with the Cannon guard, they need the reroll 1s (or all with strategem) to hit, not the scythes.
I would still get haywier bikes. Drop the second troupe of harlies to get them in. Might want to think about a Shadowseer too. With the hemlocks close by, there are plenty of mortal wounds to happen with the grenade launcher etc
Yes sorry that was a mistake, the spiritseer was meant to be with the wraithcannon group, I put them the wrong way round.
Dropping the second troupe means there's no way to make it a detachment though. As it would be 1hq, 1troop and 1fast attack. Adding a shadowseer wouldn't help matters. I'd need to add either a second troupe troop, or 2 more fast attack choices (not really feasible).
kingheff wrote: I find the main problem is keeping my screen alive/effective against the warriors and raider combo. He can march up and dish out a lot of firepower because of the open topped raiders. The fact that all his vehicles have a 5+ invulnerable save makes them annoying to take down because my tanks get no save against his dark Lance's whereas my heavy guns get stopped one third of the time. I doomed and jinxed the raider with the wyches which worked well but that's only once per round and not guaranteed. Normally I run two prisms rather than the falcons but wanted to keep my troops safe.
Here's the thing: you don't want Brightlances for fighting Venoms and Raiders. You want Starcannons or Doom Weavers. Hell, even massed Shuricannon fire would work too.
Weight of fire is the key, not traditional tankbusting.
I usually only ever try and make detachments that give CP, and had always assumed the patrol detachment was the same as the old school patrol (1hq 2 troops). This makes life a little easier, though it would still be nice to get some CP haha.
Thanks
Xenomancers wrote: I perfer crimson hunter exarchs personally. Cheaper - easier to keep alive - about the same damage output.
The range difference is significant. A pair of CHEs can bracket the entire board, and their loadout is flexible enough (I prefer the starcannon variant for pure versatility, but they make excellent tank hunters with the dual brightlance) to threaten just about everything.
Indeed - my thoughts exaclty. Normally I go starcannons too.
I do normally use the star cannon falcon, I just had an odd 30 points so spent them on lances.
As a rough plan for the list I'd swap out the banshees for a unit of wraithguard with cannons and a warwalker with two starcannons for the wraithlord.
kingheff wrote: I do normally use the star cannon falcon, I just had an odd 30 points so spent them on lances.
As a rough plan for the list I'd swap out the banshees for a unit of wraithguard with cannons and a warwalker with two starcannons for the wraithlord.
Compare falcon to Crimson hunter. Why would you ever take a Falcon?
Holding 6 guys isn't really worth it - pluc flacons really don't like moving. You can take CTM (which i would take on a falcon regaurdless) even still though - most the time you don't want to shoot the closest target.
I know the falcon isn't the best but I like them. Stick a star cannon and shuriken cannon on it with a CTM and trundle forward carrying something like a squad of fire dragons or go with two shuriken cannons and six avengers in a Biel tan list. They put out a decent amount of firepower and are flexible in what they can shoot.
I just prefer the look visually of tanks and troops in a skirmish game like 40k, it's more of a preference even if it's not as strong in game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd rank them as decent but not the optimum
I'm obviously assuming that I'm not the first to notice this, but as my other army is Chaos it's something that I noticed today regarding the Avatar.
Now I've already heard it's overpriced, and I just assumed it was a general complaint which underperforming units, hardly a unique situation, and the Avatar has often been overpriced in the past too (for whatever reason).
Something I noticed today though what it's statline. It's REMARKABLY similar to a Nurgle Daemon Prince.
Same WS Same BS Same Toughness
Same Wounds
Same Armour Save
Same Invulnerable Save
Same Feel no Pain Save
Strength of attacks is similar, a CSM prince is stronger while a normal Nurgle prince is about the same.
The Prince has more attacks (depending on weapon loadout, it's usually either about the same or several attacks extra).
The Prince can move at 12" vs the Avatar's 7".
Their Auras are different but comparable I think, I'm taking them as even for the sake of argument.
Oh, and Princes are Psykers, and so can cast 1 power or smite a turn.
So the Prince is the same, but with 5" more movement, and some pretty potent psychic power options. And is 70 points cheaper.
I mean... what?
Edit:
To add, one advantage the Avatar has is a single 12" Assault Lascannon shot, compared to the Assault 2 bolter of a Prince. So the Avatar wins on shooting. But then the Prince gets psychic buffs + smite which probably works out about the same or better on pure damage, and doesn't include the force multiplier that the psychic buffs can be.
This seems a flawed and illogical comparison on a ton of levels. They're different units. Yes demon princes are good, and yes the Avatar could use a points drop, there isn't much else to say. The strength of the Avatar is the 12 inch bubble of fearless. Fearless imo is one of the strongest auras in the game. That and he is an untargetable beatstick in an army that only has a few of those.
The avatar is overcoated for sure, which is a shame, but he's a pretty good unit overall.
Having melta in both shooting and melee is nice, he can put out a lot of damage.
His aura is potentially very nice because it's so big, banshees and spears can move forward and as long as they stay less than 12" they can re-roll charges to help get in a first round charge with a reasonable chance of success. Give the avatar the +2" movement warlord trait and advance him up, potentially fire and fading him up even further.
At 200 pts he's a great unit at 250 he's probably too expensive for competitive but perfectly useable.
Colgado wrote: This seems a flawed and illogical comparison on a ton of levels. They're different units. Yes demon princes are good, and yes the Avatar could use a points drop, there isn't much else to say. The strength of the Avatar is the 12 inch bubble of fearless. Fearless imo is one of the strongest auras in the game. That and he is an untargetable beatstick in an army that only has a few of those.
Obviously the comparison isn't apples to apples, as we all know points costs are rarely balanced between different armies for similar units because you have to compare things like army synergy and buffs etc etc. An identical you it in one army might be a powerhouse due to available psychic powers or transportation or something.
So flawed, sure, I say as much that it's not a perfect comparison. But illogical?
The units are almost identical, apart from the aura and the psychic ability. Seems like a totally logical thing to compare. If the Avatar was slightly more expensive (say 200 points) I'd say they compared well to each other. But at 250 points... I mean if they raised princes to 250 points each noone would play them, and they're currently the best unit in the chaos army.
But then that's the effect points has. I do hope for a cut for the Avatar, I do like him even if he wouldn't fit well into my fast eldar list.
So, i dont specialise in CWE, i mostly play DE/Quins, tho i do have a CWE army, i just dont play full armies of it much at all. But i feel the Avatar is better than what players make it out to be. I can understand if you are scared for it to be shot turn 1, tho if you are able to build a list to use him and you can keep him alive a couple turns i truly feel he is a good unit.
This buffs are very good, especially for Banshee's, guardians, etc.. Morla is good, but re-roll charges and with stratagems can be game changing. He is also good at threatening short range (the range and melee profiles). SUre he only has 5 attacks, but vs certain thinks thats enough.
I'd say he is equal to a Swarmlord, tho you might need to build your army around the Avatar more so that the Swarm Lord, and you might need a stratagem more than Nids. I still feel it is worth it.
The only bad part about him is his slow movement, in an army with such massive movements you can really tell how slow he is.
OrdoSean: which event do you refer to? Maybe have the list?
I think the Avatar is costed under the assumption that a large number of units profits from his auras. Fearless imo is rarely relevant as most players will focus any singular unit until it's dead anyways and the charge reroll doesn't come into play a lot as the only units that are considered competitive, that do charge are shining spears.
I still dream of a foot aspect warrior list that is playable without the feeling of handicapping myself...
I dont think that list is terrible at all, Guardians are great, and when taking so many the Avatar seems to make since (as i stated above he can work, but works better with units he buffs).
If you have dedicated Threats, the Wyches wont be shot at, thats kinda the key to wyches, dont get them shot at. They can really surprise someone with the damage, especially with Nets, drugs, drug strats, other strats, and Cursed blade for +1S. You can heavily buff 1 unit of Wyches, they are someone fast as well, ic an see giving 1 5man +2 movement for a 9" + D6 movement base on a cheap troop unit.
Guardians can DS, have Invuls, FnP, good anti-infantry shooting, if they dont DS can Fire and Fade afterwords, can even shoot after falling back if are tied up, finally being Ulthway you can give them +1 to hit.
Eldard is just good, i'm honestly surprised more dont take him.
A few questions:
Are the points a typo tho? I thought Rangers were 60pts? And i think i know why you piked Dreaming shadow (so they can shoot twice maybe) and b.c its not the popular pick, but IDK if i would ever give up Soaring Spite, Advancing with full BS is so good.
Pretty surprising list. I'm curious as to what happened there because I'm definitely inclined to agree with the naysayers trashing those unit choices. Guardians are like paper even when fearless. Once the skyweavers go down, I'm not seeing many other serious threats to any reasonably screened heavy armor. I mean, everything else literally has to walk up the board to even do anything. Maybe DS'ing both guardian squads was enough to completely clear enemy screens?
Wraithknight can be magnetized with all loadouts possible. I have 2 and both are magnetized. Just be sure to use strong enough magnets. I'm sure there are tutorials on youtube. I heavely modified my WKs, so I can't really give you precise tips.
Does the "Vauls Wrath" strat mean that death-spinner weapon batteries have a -4 ap when they wound on 5+, or does it still need to be a natural 6?
I think the Vauls Might stratagem allows you to re-roll your wound rolls of 1, not add 1.
Such a shame Support Batteries aren't that effective this edition, they sit in that nice 50-75 point point bracket useful to round off a list when you don't have 100+ points to spare on another bigger unit. And they were a brutal Dark Horse in 7th thanks to the durability of gun platforms.
Does the "Vauls Wrath" strat mean that death-spinner weapon batteries have a -4 ap when they wound on 5+, or does it still need to be a natural 6?
I think the Vauls Might stratagem allows you to re-roll your wound rolls of 1, not add 1.
Such a shame Support Batteries aren't that effective this edition, they sit in that nice 50-75 point point bracket useful to round off a list when you don't have 100+ points to spare on another bigger unit. And they were a brutal Dark Horse in 7th thanks to the durability of gun platforms.
D cannons are actually really good. All support weapons really need to be able to move and shoot with no penalty though IMO.
The Prince has more attacks (depending on weapon loadout, it's usually either about the same or several attacks extra).
The Prince can move at 12" vs the Avatar's 7".
Don't forget prince's tend to have this keyword "fly" which even with the faq nerf is still bloody good and one of the best keywords you can have in the game. Mobility difference isn't just 5".
Albeit different units etc. To utilize that 12" fly you would be less effective aura provider so...
Hi everybody,
i am still not sure how to support my army with psyker. At 2k i usually run something like:
- 2X Dire Avengers in 2 Wave Serpent
- 1X Ranger
- 2X5 Dark Reaper/ 1X10 Dark Reaper
- 1X5 Spears + 1 Autarch Skyrunner
- 2 Hemlocks/ 1 Hemlock, 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch (Jinx)
- Usually Alaitoc
Now here is the problem i have, usually i go for:
-1 Farseer Skyrunner (Fortune + Doom)
-1 Warlock Skyrunner (Protect)
Both in the Shining Spears for sweet 3++ 4+++ 5+++; i can use Seer Council with them.
So i if i pass all the tests i have a hard to kill Spear unit and can burst down a Target with Jinx and Doom (obviously just in an ideal case).
But i feel its too all or nothing for the Spears and i would like to make use of Guide for the Reapers.
How do you guys use your Psyker? More defensive or offensive? What combinations do you normally go for? I am curious about your feedback!
Cheers!
luke1705 wrote: I'm also debating if I should make my Harlequin detachment Ynnari. Trying to pilot a list similar to the one that Sean Nayden won a GT with recently:
Of course, I would have to tweak the points to make the Yvraine appear instead of the Troupe Master, but do you guys think its a good idea to do so?
Those gardians would be better suited as ulthwe.
Harlequins are always better being harlequin codex.
Wyches are garbage.
My 2 cents.
Wyches on foot are pretty bad yes, but deep striking them is not awful. Come in on turn 2 with 2 levels of power from pain?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
barboggo wrote: Pretty surprising list. I'm curious as to what happened there because I'm definitely inclined to agree with the naysayers trashing those unit choices. Guardians are like paper even when fearless. Once the skyweavers go down, I'm not seeing many other serious threats to any reasonably screened heavy armor. I mean, everything else literally has to walk up the board to even do anything. Maybe DS'ing both guardian squads was enough to completely clear enemy screens?
So I was there and although I only heard about his games anecdotally, he beat:
A very good player with a triple Riptide Tau list
Abaddon and 150 cultists plus Ahriman and a bloodletter bomb
90 plagubearers + support characters (and some thousand sons for extra mortals)
The standard Castellan + Custodes Supreme Command + IG Brigade (in the finals)
Triple Vault (though that matchup was somewhat unfair for the necron player with that crazy Harlequin “shoot necrons on a 2+ as I die” thing)
Someone else who was 3-0 on day 1. May have been 6 wave serpents and 3 Ravagers, but don’t quote me on that
TLDR it was a very competitive tournament with 90 + people showing up. Sean has always been able to do things that the rest of us can only dream about. His opponents were all undefeated entering into the game against him.
luke1705 wrote: I'm also debating if I should make my Harlequin detachment Ynnari. Trying to pilot a list similar to the one that Sean Nayden won a GT with recently:
Of course, I would have to tweak the points to make the Yvraine appear instead of the Troupe Master, but do you guys think its a good idea to do so?
Those gardians would be better suited as ulthwe.
Harlequins are always better being harlequin codex.
Wyches are garbage.
My 2 cents.
Wyches on foot are pretty bad yes, but deep striking them is not awful. Come in on turn 2 with 2 levels of power from pain?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
barboggo wrote: Pretty surprising list. I'm curious as to what happened there because I'm definitely inclined to agree with the naysayers trashing those unit choices. Guardians are like paper even when fearless. Once the skyweavers go down, I'm not seeing many other serious threats to any reasonably screened heavy armor. I mean, everything else literally has to walk up the board to even do anything. Maybe DS'ing both guardian squads was enough to completely clear enemy screens?
So I was there and although I only heard about his games anecdotally, he beat:
A very good player with a triple Riptide Tau list
Abaddon and 150 cultists plus Ahriman and a bloodletter bomb
90 plagubearers + support characters (and some thousand sons for extra mortals)
The standard Castellan + Custodes Supreme Command + IG Brigade (in the finals)
Triple Vault (though that matchup was somewhat unfair for the necron player with that crazy Harlequin “shoot necrons on a 2+ as I die” thing)
Someone else who was 3-0 on day 1. May have been 6 wave serpents and 3 Ravagers, but don’t quote me on that
TLDR it was a very competitive tournament with 90 + people showing up. Sean has always been able to do things that the rest of us can only dream about. His opponents were all undefeated entering into the game against him.
Not sold on the witches (in fact they are garbage no mater how you slice it) - though your list that has yncarne instead of a trashatar is MUCH better. Though the way yncarne deploys is just awful.
I'd scrub the wyche cult units and take a DE batallion with khabs in venoms.
or another option is making your harlequin detachment into a batallion with troops
Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.
grouchoben wrote: Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.
He has a dakka account. He responded in the battle report thread about this tournament.
Clealy the whole list isn't trash - harlie bikes are teir 1 and specialize at killing knights and wave serpents. As are solitaires and eldrad. The gardians are okay - I often deep strike full 20 man gardians. It's just his ancillary choices that are garbage...Ra instead of autarch - avatar??? wyches??? Ra is decent but autarch is better. Avatar is hella bad - wyches are garbo.
grouchoben wrote: Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.
He has a dakka account. He responded in the battle report thread about this tournament.
You mean the 2 things about how good some of the units are that he took? Something many of use already been saying.
What makes a good player an amazing player is knowing when and what to do at the right times.
Like against certain armies he should DS a guardian squad or 2, other times the Wyches, other times DS nothing, maybe play hyper aggressive, or completely defensive. Strategies in playing an army are not stagnate, you need to adjust to what you are facing. Yes you need a clear goal in mind but its the movements, deployments and target priorities that players want to see ESPECIALLY at a GT level as most of us dont get to be on those top tables.
Even long time veteran players that knows all the stats/mathhammer, and are good players can always learn from others.
Grouchoben, this whole thread frustrates me for those exact reasons. This whole thread is about unit analysis and list-building in a very uninteresting way. Most of the analysis is purely about how much something can theoretically kill, and if not, how well it can stay alive.
I'd really like to see more discussion of how units can A) be used most effectively, B) be used symbiotically or at least co-operatively with other units (either by actual rules, or simply because they complement each others roles well.) and C) to achieve victory in a range of missions, not just killing stuff. Sure, tabling your opponent is one way to win, but not the only way.
This can be about units, it can be about stratagems, it can be about. It can even be about psychic powers, warlord traits and relics. But it should be about how to use things well together, not just about which one is "best" or "trash".
For example, whilst I am sympathetic to the argument about the Avatar being gak, I'd rather see discussion about how to maximise its value. Sean, from commentary here and elsewhere, seems to have used it to shore up the morale issues of a squad of guardians, but he also got some benefit from being able to use it as a counter-attack unit. Are there other ways of achieving the same thing? For example, using an Iyanden list to limit morale losses and heaping a Phoenix Lord in the middle?
Some people in each of these conversations try to defend units, and do so by pointing out the qualities of the unit, but too often they are shouted down and instead of trying to find ways of optimising how to use things, people simply bitch and moan that they want cheaper, better toys for killing stuff with.
grouchoben wrote: Does Sean ever write anything, blogs or such? I'd be really interested to hear how he runs his lists, they're always swerve balls! It's funny, people are presented with evidence that this list beat a lot of very competitive lists lpayed by great players, and it dosn't compute. Should be possible. Those units are trash. Etc, etc. We need some more risk taking and building for specific tactics in our community, and it would be great to have people like Sean leading the way.
He has a dakka account. He responded in the battle report thread about this tournament.
You mean the 2 things about how good some of the units are that he took? Something many of use already been saying.
What makes a good player an amazing player is knowing when and what to do at the right times.
Like against certain armies he should DS a guardian squad or 2, other times the Wyches, other times DS nothing, maybe play hyper aggressive, or completely defensive. Strategies in playing an army are not stagnate, you need to adjust to what you are facing. Yes you need a clear goal in mind but its the movements, deployments and target priorities that players want to see ESPECIALLY at a GT level as most of us dont get to be on those top tables.
Even long time veteran players that knows all the stats/mathhammer, and are good players can always learn from others.
It would be nice to see some reports of it.
I'd love to see a real battle report from his games at this event. It would answer a lot of my questions.
^^A link to the Battle for Salvation twitch stream. I think the game I linked (the final vs the knight + Custodes Captains list) is the only game that he plays on stream that weekend. But then again, it’s him vs a good player playing (arguably) the best and most meta list that 40k has to offer.
It’s rather telling that the knight (house raven) lived throughout the entire game and Sean still won. I spoke to Sean after the game about how that happened and he said there was a crucial moment where he thought the bikes were out of LOS (they weren’t) and that was unfortunate for him. I think the final score was 23-19, but don’t quote me on that.
Below is a link to Sean’s blogspot from eons ago if you really want to stalk his brain, but he doesn’t update it regularly any more.
IG/Castellans played terrible. He had the power to move up and overwhelm the eldar player and he didn't do it. I can't even tell you what he was doing all game. Castellan never even moved as far as I can tell.
Sometimes you shouldn't do that but against 40 gardians and 26 wyches plus maganra...yeah...you just move up and table him.
Just wondering if anyone has run a big group of reapers buffed by protect and screened by asurman and dire avengers?
This would give you a 4+ invulnerable save plus potentially-2 to hit from alaitoc and lightning reflexes. You can go crazy and pile conceal and fortune on top but that seems too big an investment for one unit.
The avengers would be a slightly more durable screen and asurman provides great counter charging potential.
I'm going to give it a try this week at my local gw store but an curious if anyone has any experience with this combo?
It looks good on paper, but in reality a T3 4+ save is nothing to write home about, even with Alaitoc shenanigans. You need at least two RoB powers (Protect, Conceal) to make it worthwhile, at which point you're talking about investing 300 points to keep a single mediocre troop slot alive.
Against pretty much everything except units that can ignore malus to hit, Rangers in cover are better, and even then I'd probably take the Rangers purely because of the efficiency and synergy they have with other Eldar strategies.
kingheff wrote: Just wondering if anyone has run a big group of reapers buffed by protect and screened by asurman and dire avengers?
This would give you a 4+ invulnerable save plus potentially-2 to hit from alaitoc and lightning reflexes. You can go crazy and pile conceal and fortune on top but that seems too big an investment for one unit.
The avengers would be a slightly more durable screen and asurman provides great counter charging potential.
I'm going to give it a try this week at my local gw store but an curious if anyone has any experience with this combo?
Asurman is really expensive. That is his biggest problem. His buff is awesome though. 4++ dire avengers are almost worth their 12 point cost. The asurman tax is too high though.
Umm, the plan is to buff a squad of ten dark reapers with asurman and protect for a 4+ invulnerable save. The dire avengers are only there to screen, sorry if I was unclear, it's what I get for posting from my phone at work.
Asurman is really expensive. That is his biggest problem. His buff is awesome though. 4++ dire avengers are almost worth their 12 point cost. The asurman tax is too high though.
Amusingly enough I find Asurmen is a terrifying beatstick if supported correctly. It's a massive opportunity cost to pull of, but a >50% chance to drop d3 mortal wounds per hit on a target carves right through things. The whole package (Asurmen + Autarch + Farseer + Warlock/Spiritseer) is pushing 500 points, but damn can it do some scary things if it manages to connect.
kingheff wrote: Umm, the plan is to buff a squad of ten dark reapers with asurman and protect for a 4+ invulnerable save. The dire avengers are only there to screen, sorry if I was unclear, it's what I get for posting from my phone at work.
No I understood you. The reapers will also get a 4++ if you protect them. It seems decent enough for a causal game. I find the best way to protect reapers is just to keep them out of LOS using fire and fade. Move up - shoot - fire and fade behind wall.
Another point to make is that if you protect reapers and they are in cover - they have a 1+ save. Realistically this will give you a 4++ against ap -3. I don't think you need asurman to make this work.
Asurman is really expensive. That is his biggest problem. His buff is awesome though. 4++ dire avengers are almost worth their 12 point cost. The asurman tax is too high though.
Amusingly enough I find Asurmen is a terrifying beatstick if supported correctly. It's a massive opportunity cost to pull of, but a >50% chance to drop d3 mortal wounds per hit on a target carves right through things. The whole package (Asurmen + Autarch + Farseer + Warlock/Spiritseer) is pushing 500 points, but damn can it do some scary things if it manages to connect.
He certainly is a killer with +1 to wound. Also just looking at him now. 175 is not a terrible price for him. It really is a shame though that dire avengers are so expensive - it would be fun to run them together.
I find the 5++ on other Aspects more impactful than the 4++ on DAs. DAs are already cheap, have a 4+, and a third of their wounds already have a 4++. If they're hitting your DAs with good AP, they aren't hitting something more important. Fire Dragons, Scorpions, Banshees, etc all want to get close, costs too much per model, and have no invuln. A 5++ means they dont' fall over to moderate AP.
That said, I use Asurmen because I enjoy him. You're better off with a Farseer. Too many points.
(He *did* oneround a 4-man Custodes squad once. And did 15 unsaved wounds to a Termie squad another game. But those are anomolies - he doesn't reliably do that kind of damage.)
Cover works great but tends to work best with small units, same with fire and fade. The theory I had was that to get the most out of the buffs like guide was to lump in on a max sized unit which is going to be tricky to keep in cover or fire and fade back out of sight.
Plus the invulnerable works in melee too if you do get charged by something with reasonable ap. Having asurman, who seems, avatar aside, to be our best beat stick, standing by for a counter attack is pretty decent. If the reapers do get taken down, stick protect on asurman to give him a 2+ invulnerable instead!
Problem is that if you're looking for a counter-charge unit, an Autarch does almost as well as Asurmen for half the price while still providing synergy with their reroll aura.
And that's before discussing your options if you go soupy and use say a Red Grief Succubus or Obsidian Rose Blasterchon to open up even more options.
But the autarch doesn't supply an invulnerable save which is the point of this plan, reapers are awesome but pretty fragile. Especially against bigger guns which tend to be the ones with the range to hit them.
Reapers have a 3+ standard save. You need melee of better than AP -2, or ranged of better than AP-3 (you are keeping them in cover right?) to actually benefit from Asurmen's 5++.
The biggest threat to Reapers are Autocannon type weapons with high weight of fire but minimal AP that exploit their T3 nature. If an enemy is pointing their Lascannons at Reapers, they're not pointing them at Prisms or other grav tanks. Which is a net win.
If you're really dedicated to keeping your Reapers alive, task a Warlock/Spiritseer to Conceal them. -2 to hit, alongside a countercharge Auarch, gives them far more of a boost for less points than Asurmen.
Well, that's why I factored in protect for a 4++. At worst a 50% chance of ignoring any wounds, on top of minuses to hit, seems to be enough of a deterrent to hopefully keep my opponent from targeting the reapers at all.
Maybe it's just me but I find reapers die pretty quickly even in cover and at 34 pts each every one that dies is very painful both in terms of cost and loss of firepower.
You need to look at the whole casualty equation, not just the save. Yes, you can achieve a 4++, but with a smaller point investment you can achieve the equivalent of a 1+++ (with the potential for a 0+++ or -1+++ depending on your opponent and CP supply) while also providing an offensive boost.
I understand what you’re trying to pull off, and it can work, but from an end efficiency standpoint there are other, better options.
I understand that there may be better solutions via other means but one nice thing about this plan is that it's not dependent on CP's or much of anything, it's pretty much a passive ability, barring the warlock casting protect. Plus it doesn't just affect the reapers. Getting three small squads of avengers into asurman's buff range should be pretty easy and should make for a reasonably tough and effective little screen.
Xenomancers wrote: IG/Castellans played terrible. He had the power to move up and overwhelm the eldar player and he didn't do it. I can't even tell you what he was doing all game. Castellan never even moved as far as I can tell.
Sometimes you shouldn't do that but against 40 gardians and 26 wyches plus maganra...yeah...you just move up and table him.
Respectfully disagree. I’m not sure what you think was going to move up and table the guardians and wyches. That would have been an awful move for the knights player. Getting up close and personal is exactly what all of those Eldar models want. Also the Castellan moved on turn 1?
Xenomancers wrote: IG/Castellans played terrible. He had the power to move up and overwhelm the eldar player and he didn't do it. I can't even tell you what he was doing all game. Castellan never even moved as far as I can tell.
Sometimes you shouldn't do that but against 40 gardians and 26 wyches plus maganra...yeah...you just move up and table him.
Respectfully disagree. I’m not sure what you think was going to move up and table the guardians and wyches. That would have been an awful move for the knights player. Getting up close and personal is exactly what all of those Eldar models want. Also the Castellan moved on turn 1?
Getting up close and personal is exactly what straken buffed infantry want too. LOL. Not to mention the sheild captain and hell hounds.
The guy played his lists like crap and he lost to a vastly inferior list. Like...did you see how many people criticized the list straight away?
everyone is saying "how did that list not get tabled?" well the answer is simple - his opponent didn't even try.
The Eldar list needs to be within 12" for almost all of it's killiness. The IK list needs to be within 12" for maybe half it's killiness. Sure, Straken, Shield Captain, Knight etc want to get close. But moreso than Guardians, Wyches, and Avatars?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What cause, beyond the list winning not fitting your current model, do you have to suggest the IK player didn't even try?
Bharring wrote: The Eldar list needs to be within 12" for almost all of it's killiness. The IK list needs to be within 12" for maybe half it's killiness. Sure, Straken, Shield Captain, Knight etc want to get close. But moreso than Guardians, Wyches, and Avatars?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What cause, beyond the list winning not fitting your current model, do you have to suggest the IK player didn't even try?
straken catachans beat all of those units with relative ease. You are acting like he should be scared of gardians...uhhh - no. those units can't hang point for point with anything in the imperial list which is a fully optimized list.
Plus I didn't say that the guy didn't try to win (in whatever way he was trying) I said he didn't try to table his opponent which he could have done very easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I play a lot of games - it's not uncommon in the "competitive scene" of games for the game to devolve into a passive camp fest. Almost all games do this. Thing is - there is a reason for that. In most games passive wins. In 40k aggression almost always wins.
I also play a lot of games. Guardians aren't afraid of IG infantry. They'll kill them by platoons.
Catachans advance to get close. Guardians and wytches move up, guardians advancing. Guardians shoot most of the IG, then wytches clean up the survivors.
I play a medium amount of games. Guardians land shoot kill guardsmen. Can stand with them in assault for a bit.
You really think the castellan which our ranges the entire eldar army should have advanced into charge range of the avatar? The avatar was mid board turn two. Move up and the castellan gets rocked into combat.
If I hadn’t been so lazy with my bikes in this game and used terrain correctly the game would not have been close. As it was close of turn 4 I had gained the lead in the game and was in dominant board position. Most of the guard infantry was dead and all of the shield captains as well.
Guardians are a gold standard unit. Backbone of great eldar lists. Hard to kill. Great at killing anything in the game with doom.
Not the correct thread but wyches are also amazing.
The IG player played the game about as well as he could have. He has a lot of experience with his list vs competitive players and is himself a good player. However, as Sean said, the matchup was not a good one for the knight player, and Sean played well enough to win.
Just because you don’t understand how Sean’s list works doesn’t mean that it’s not good. For example, not understanding that every guardian squad has 2 gun platforms in them to give them a 3+ save (or 2+ if in cover or buffed with a spell). It might not seem like a big deal, but that save variety means the squad has an enormous amount of durability because they can take lascannons shots on guardians, and no AP shots on the platforms, saving 70-90% of the time. You could even give the guardians a 4++, buff it to a 3++ with protect, and then conceal them to make them -1 to hit. Don’t forget the Ulthwe 6+++. Are you seeing now how maybe you don’t quite see the entire picture about how a unit works when you try to analyze it in a vacuum? @Xenomancers
Perfect example of how forums devolve into list building and mathhammer, even when presented with serious arguments that positioning and synergies might outweigh what is arithmetically the best pick.
Asurman is really expensive. That is his biggest problem. His buff is awesome though. 4++ dire avengers are almost worth their 12 point cost. The asurman tax is too high though.
Amusingly enough I find Asurmen is a terrifying beatstick if supported correctly. It's a massive opportunity cost to pull of, but a >50% chance to drop d3 mortal wounds per hit on a target carves right through things. The whole package (Asurmen + Autarch + Farseer + Warlock/Spiritseer) is pushing 500 points, but damn can it do some scary things if it manages to connect.
Forgot to ask, I assume this is for re-roll ones, doom and empower respectively?
Forgot to ask, I assume this is for re-roll ones, doom and empower respectively?
Correct. The Autarch isn't strictly necessary, but having a beatstick wingman isn't the worst thing in the world, especially when it can disrupt overwatches with the Banshee Mask.
Plus its pretty damn fluffy having a pair of heroes just wade in and melt faces from time to time.
Very true, I did think about a asurman and Jain zar combo, not only for the overwatch denial, but I figured anything left after the beat down hopefully they won't have a weapon to hit back with!
While denying a counterstrike is a consideration, remember that Asurmen is T4 with a 2+/3++ in melee (and you can always go bat**** with your Farseer thats supporting him and drop a Fortune for a 5+++). Against most things you'd actually be willing to charge him into, he can typically
handle himself.
Not saying it couldnt be a potent combo (and fluffy as all hell), just that those extra points may be more impactful elsewhere on the board.
Of course, but thats two warlocks/seers to boost one model. It's a one trick pony with a lot of moving parts, and rather fun to play, it's just so unwieldy and inefficient that my brain sneezes a few times when I think about it
Sterling191 wrote: While denying a counterstrike is a consideration, remember that Asurmen is T4 with a 2+/3++ in melee (and you can always go bat**** with your Farseer thats supporting him and drop a Fortune for a 5+++). Against most things you'd actually be willing to charge him into, he can typically
handle himself.
Not saying it couldnt be a potent combo (and fluffy as all hell), just that those extra points may be more impactful elsewhere on the board.
Sure, I just like it as a funny idea more than anything. Knocking the emperor's sword out of guilliman's hand springs to mind!
Also, in an Uthwe list, Asurmen is probably your only model without a 6+++ already.
I don't have my book in front of me - I thought the Autarch aura was <Craftworld>, not Asuryani?
I find Asurmen to be the perfect counter-captain, in less competitive games. I wouldn't want to send him up against Smashfether (unsure how the numbers work out), but in less competitive games, him + DAs will mean when you go up against Captain + Tacs, you can actually push for CC. Overcosted for what he does, and you don't find his favorite scenarios at top tables much (by my reckoning). But a blast in many casual games.
Support with Banshess (or Scorpions) and with a smallish Reaper squad in back (or some other big guns), and you have a core 'demi-company' list that gives both players a great time (again in casual games). Fill to flavor.
Bharring wrote: That's what I thought - so what benefit would an Autarch give a Phoenix Lord, since it won't get the rerolls?
None directly because I'm a fething idiot who has been playing it wrong for months (in my defense some of the Phoenix Lord nuance limitations are just bloody dumb).
Standing by my bit on it being a good beatstick buddy though, especially if you're committing supporting Banshees, Scorpions or other melee units to the rush.
Are any of the phoenix lords actually any good / useful?
Assuming that the Autarch is only allowed the Codex options (so no banshee masks etc), as it would seem likely that those options will be squatted sooner rather than later so I'm not going to waste time/money on conversions.
If you're not running Aspect Warriors, Phoenix Lords aint gonna do anything special for you. Each imparts additional affects, of one magnitude or another, to their namesake Aspect. Some boost all Aspects.
Asurmen gives Avengers a 4++, and all other Aspects a 5++
Bharroth gives a boost to Leadership (increased for Swoopin Hawks).
Fuegan allows Fire Dragons to reroll 1s for ranged weapons
Irrylith imparts an 18" fear bubble to Shadow Spectres
Jain Zar allows Banshees to fight first
Karandras gives exploding 6s on melee strikes to Scorpions (technically 6+s, which leads to hilarious things when you throw Scorpions at enemies in cover with the right boost)
Sterling191 wrote: If you're not running Aspect Warriors, Phoenix Lords aint gonna do anything special for you. Each imparts additional affects, of one magnitude or another, to their namesake Aspect. Some boost all Aspects.
Asurmen gives Avengers a 4++, and all other Aspects a 5++
Bharroth gives a boost to Leadership (increased for Swoopin Hawks).
Fuegan allows Fire Dragons to reroll 1s for ranged weapons
Irrylith imparts an 18" fear bubble to Shadow Spectres
Jain Zar allows Banshees to fight first
Karandras gives exploding 6s on melee strikes to Scorpions (technically 6+s, which leads to hilarious things when you throw Scorpions at enemies in cover with the right boost)
Maugan Ra lets Reapers reroll 1s to hit
A lot of those seem fairly lacklustre, I mean I'm sure they're fine in themselves but things like fear bubbles and re-rolling 1's are nothing unique to the Phoenix Lords. I mean it's nothing that you can't get from a bog standard SM Captain.
Which seems odd in itself, thousands of years of technology and experience, vs an Astartes middle-management. But that's just 40k for you in general.
Jain Zar interests me, being able to prevent overwatch on a unit. Even without some Banshees on the table he can assault a unit and shut down it's overwatch. Pricey though.
Asurman might be worth it with some Avengers, but still seems like spending the points on more avengers would be better protection.
A lot of those seem fairly lacklustre, I mean I'm sure they're fine in themselves but things like fear bubbles and re-rolling 1's are nothing unique to the Phoenix Lords. I mean it's nothing that you can't get from a bog standard SM Captain.
Some are, some arent. Each is also a fairly hefty beatstick in their own right, some in melee, some at range, some both.
Let's look at two of my favorite combos:
The Irrylith Leadership Bomb and the Karandras Streetsweeper.
Irrylith gives all of his Spectres an 18" fear bubble that forces an enemy to roll another die and discard the lowest for Morale checks. By itself, eh fairly lackluster. Combine it with other terror abilities that Eldar have (DEldar Phantom grenades, Hemlocks, Harlie fear auras, etc) and you can end up with a setup that does *more* damage in Morale than in does in Fight or Shooting.
Karandras on the other hand imparts a 6+ exploding attack to his namesakes. 1/6 chance with only 2 attacks, that sounds terrible right? Well hang on there. Scorpions innately add +1 to their hits when Fighting anything in cover. Tack on enhance and suddenly you've got exploding 4+s. But wait, toss in Supreme Disdain and each exploding 4 triggers two additional attacks, and you're hitting on 2s.
Playing Eldar is about unit synergy, not what a single unit alone can do.
A lot of those seem fairly lacklustre, I mean I'm sure they're fine in themselves but things like fear bubbles and re-rolling 1's are nothing unique to the Phoenix Lords. I mean it's nothing that you can't get from a bog standard SM Captain.
Some are, some arent. Each is also a fairly hefty beatstick in their own right, some in melee, some at range, some both.
Karandras on the other hand imparts a 6+ exploding attack to his namesakes. 1/6 chance with only 2 attacks, that sounds terrible right? Well hang on there. Scorpions innately add +1 to their hits when Fighting anything in cover. Tack on enhance and suddenly you've got exploding 4+s. But wait, toss in Supreme Disdain and each exploding 4 triggers two additional attacks, and you're hitting on 2s.
Playing Eldar is about unit synergy, not what a single unit alone can do.
Sometimes you also need to recognize when a combo is cool in theory but underwhelming and expensive in practice. I often go down the same path of combo adding all kinds of buffs to make some of the combat aspect units work. But when you’re adding multiple Psykers on top of your base Farseer/protect seer; stratagems like supreme disdain and an expensive guy like karandras, that’s two additional hq choices and a stratagem to make 10 striking scorpions pretend to be as good as wyches in combat.
The combos in eldar go even beyond their own codex. While all three books can stand alone to one degree or another. With eldar and drukari being able to compete solo and harlequins misty being lower tier, it’s when the three books are combined that options really open up. The best shooting units (Spears, guardians, reapers)and characters(farseers, spiritseers, Phoenix lords, avatar) are found in the eldar codex, best combat options in the drukari( wyches and grotesques) and the best specialty units in harlequins(solitaire and haywire bikes).
Overall the hardest units to make work are the foot based combat units. And gw struggles to get them right. Wyches are great. Scorpions, banshees, incubi, harlequins all have serious flaws that are difficult to fix. Points cost and such being one flaw but also stats and delivery of t3 models that need to perform in combat where attrition is often the name of the game.
Also on the Phoenix lord discussion. Maugen ra and Jain zar both work well in lists with decent price points and unique skill sets that they can bring to the table. Asurmen is a fun beat stick with maybe a little too high a price tag. And bahhroth is actually a very cheap utility character as well. I use maugen ra a lot competitively in both eldar and ynarri lists, and have used Jain a few times as well, though her skills are often mimicked and improved on by index gear autarchs.
I play 25+ Dire Avengers with Asurmen from time to time and he is better than you give him credit for. He won't win you tournaments, but he is pretty good.
Maxamato wrote: Beside of Phoenix Lords, what do you think from The Visarch?
Not sure how do use him as well as Yncarne.
Any hints?
The Visarch is really just an expensive shield for Yvraine, and she doesn't need one(as she is a character with less than 10 wounds, so she can hide among the troops). The Yncarne can now be deployed normally, and he is a beat stick. He functions similarly to the Avatar of Khaine in that you march him towards a target you wish to destroy. As he is also a character with less than 10 wounds, you can surround him with other units for protection. The trickier parts about him are knowing when to use his relocation ability for optimal advantage.
Weidekuh wrote: I play 25+ Dire Avengers with Asurmen from time to time and he is better than you give him credit for. He won't win you tournaments, but he is pretty good.
Maxamato wrote: Beside of Phoenix Lords, what do you think from The Visarch?
Not sure how do use him as well as Yncarne.
Any hints?
The Visarch is really just an expensive shield for Yvraine, and she doesn't need one(as she is a character with less than 10 wounds, so she can hide among the troops). The Yncarne can now be deployed normally, and he is a beat stick. He functions similarly to the Avatar of Khaine in that you march him towards a target you wish to destroy. As he is also a character with less than 10 wounds, you can surround him with other units for protection. The trickier parts about him are knowing when to use his relocation absolut for optimal advantage.
Thx!
So, is it probably worth to team up him with an Avatar?
You can't have both of them in the same detachment because the Avatar can't be Ynnari (he belongs to a different deity), but in separate detachments, I suppose you could double up on them. However they kind of serve the same purpose and they won'tt buff each other or have a lot of synergy. For fun though, absolutely! I have though of doing it myself just to make a goofy list called "Dueling Avatars"
My opponent said he's bringing terminators so we've agreed to avoid soup and generally take more fun units.
I ran 1 squad of 2 Vypers with starcannons and shuriken cannons way back in January, and, I found they were ok, but probably only just “ok”. I ran them as Saim-hann as well so I could move and shoot without penalty, which, I think is a must if you want to run with heavy weapons imo. I didn’t really feel like I would have benefited much from them having a 20” move, especially as the cost starts getting ridiculously high.
I can see them working in a Biel tan shuriken army, maybe a couple in support of a unit of shining spears. You can make a case for war walkers for the invulnerable save or the hornet for the minus one to hit but hornets are a bit expensive for a couple of shuriken cannons.
T6 and a 5++ are pretty big durability factors in favour of War Walkers (vs Vypers). And because they can battle focus the difference in movement isn't very big either.
Its so close though, and they cost the same points. Probably the better question is what fits in the theme of your force, and your personal preference of the model itself (war walkers are a far newer kit).
The Vyper squadron ended up performing admirably in my game last weekend. My two Hemlocks and four wave serpents ended up drawing all of the fire anyway, so the Vypers were basically free to hop around the map adding support shurikens whereever it was needed. They probably die to a stiff breeze but for my purposes that game they were a great utility chaff clearance/cleanup unit especially since they kept their 20" move all game.
Spartacus wrote: T6 and a 5++ are pretty big durability factors in favour of War Walkers (vs Vypers). And because they can battle focus the difference in movement isn't very big either.
Its so close though, and they cost the same points. Probably the better question is what fits in the theme of your force, and your personal preference of the model itself (war walkers are a far newer kit).
A factor against the war walker is the lack of ability to fall back and fire if they get dragged into combat and maybe the fact it's heavy support where we do have some pretty tasty options to compete with but it's an extremely close call.
Does anyone have any experience with the forgeworld cobra or scorpion? I have the opportunity to get one semi cheap (150$ us for a 260$ model...) and i dont know if its worth it or not. They look awsome but points wise seem expensive.
Azuza001 wrote: Does anyone have any experience with the forgeworld cobra or scorpion? I have the opportunity to get one semi cheap (150$ us for a 260$ model...) and i dont know if its worth it or not. They look awsome but points wise seem expensive.
Of all the eldar super heavies I feel they are the only ones currently in an okay place (phantom is to but its 2.5k solo) they cost a decent chunk of points a d the scorpion more than the cobra but those pulsars will put stuff down pretty quick.
I've put up a list in the army list forum trying to utilise both avatars in a footdar list I'd appreciate some help there if anyone has advice. I'm running a reaper block with avengers and shining spears primarily.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, but the cobra scares me a bit, d6 shots has me worried of that dreaded 1 or 2. Then the enemy gets a 3++ and well, thats not gonna do much.....
Yeah I prefer the scorpion in terms of output but it does have like a 100 point increase over the cobra with upgrades it's just over 700.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, but the cobra scares me a bit, d6 shots has me worried of that dreaded 1 or 2. Then the enemy gets a 3++ and well, thats not gonna do much.....
Yeah I prefer the scorpion in terms of output but it does have like a 100 point increase over the cobra with upgrades it's just over 700.
Which is the other side of that coin. At 700+ pts for 3+/5++/6+++ it has some toughness to it for sure but its still really kinda all eggs 1 basket. At 550 pts the cobra is a little easier to swallow....
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, but the cobra scares me a bit, d6 shots has me worried of that dreaded 1 or 2. Then the enemy gets a 3++ and well, thats not gonna do much.....
Yeah I prefer the scorpion in terms of output but it does have like a 100 point increase over the cobra with upgrades it's just over 700.
Which is the other side of that coin. At 700+ pts for 3+/5++/6+++ it has some toughness to it for sure but its still really kinda all eggs 1 basket. At 550 pts the cobra is a little easier to swallow....
Yeah the cobra is for sure the easier add to a list at 700 in on 1 model (cause you do want some upgrades) you need a lot of other high priority armour targets I think fireprisms work there. At least it then mutually forces one set to at least make it through or you to achieve something. I still prefer the scorpion though just because if I make this huge investment it should at least produce consistently good results and the pulsar does.
The Scorpion is now 700 pts standard I believe, its gun is terrifying but only really works against certain armies, mostly things like knights or other super heavy units, although it can also work against things like big custodes units.
If you can arrange a game against certain opponents it can work brilliantly but it's not a great choice in an army where you don't know your opposition.
kingheff wrote: The Scorpion is now 700 pts standard I believe, its gun is terrifying but only really works against certain armies, mostly things like knights or other super heavy units, although it can also work against things like big custodes units.
If you can arrange a game against certain opponents it can work brilliantly but it's not a great choice in an army where you don't know your opposition.
It's pretty dang terrifying. It will pretty much nuke anything off the table in 1 round except a 3++ save knight. Also with -1 to hit trait it's never going to be less than -2 to hit turn 1 (basically indestructible) then you can fortune it. It's cost is quite high though for a unit that can't threaten more than 1 unit in a turn. When deepstrike was actaully playable - this unit basically took deepstrike away from your opponent because with forwarded - you would just get a free turn off shooting with a unit that auto destroys anything it shoots lol. It's even less valuable now that DS has been almost removed from the game with it's restrictions.
kingheff wrote: The Scorpion is now 700 pts standard I believe, its gun is terrifying but only really works against certain armies, mostly things like knights or other super heavy units, although it can also work against things like big custodes units.
If you can arrange a game against certain opponents it can work brilliantly but it's not a great choice in an army where you don't know your opposition.
It's pretty dang terrifying. It will pretty much nuke anything off the table in 1 round except a 3++ save knight. Also with -1 to hit trait it's never going to be less than -2 to hit turn 1 (basically indestructible) then you can fortune it. It's cost is quite high though for a unit that can't threaten more than 1 unit in a turn. When deepstrike was actaully playable - this unit basically took deepstrike away from your opponent because with forwarded - you would just get a free turn off shooting with a unit that auto destroys anything it shoots lol. It's even less valuable now that DS has been almost removed from the game with it's restrictions.
Like I think its playable it's not fantastic but you could win with one in certain match ups at least. Vampire hunter and revenant though got dumpstered and tbh they were much harder to win with.
My general meta has a lot of knights in it. Also in the tournaments we run where forgeworld is allowed its 2500 pt lists and no restrictions on anything. I think i will pick it up. For the cost of 150$ it seems like a good deal. I don't think i would run it alitoc though, for 1 i hate that trait with a passion, dont like playing against it or with it (personal preference, i know competitive wise its THE choice) but i thinik Iyandin fits really well with it, keeping it at almost fully funcional until almost end game. Finally whats the thoughts on keeping something like this alive t1? If you deep stike it is it consider moving at full speed when it comes in t2? Or should i just hope for t1 and get the cover bonus if not and hope it lives long enough to get used?
If all tables were like the table on stream.
By hiding inside buildings so they could not get shot at.
I don't understand this. The one game I saw that people talk about, the Guardsmen got on top of a building (which is a common way to deny charging), not inside one. Or did I miss something? Also apparently the trick requires LOS-ignoring units, and there are no Wraith units that do.
To be fair, wraithguard are deceptively difficult to kill, especially if they get buffed up with things like protect, conceal, or fortune. I’ve personally had the displeasure of chewing through a 10 man unit a few times. I can hardly imagine what 4 of those would be like. You just kind of hit target saturation. Your strength 4 guns are not used to wounding on 5’s and having no infantry units that they want to shoot at. Same goes for your close combat, and all of your strength 5. Hope you strength 3 stuff likes wounding on sixes. It’s like Custodes bikes but with less range on their anti infantry, a worse armor save and no invuln, but cheaper per wound. And with much better defenses vs mortal wounds, which definitely are a weakness of primary Custodes armies.
I'm curious how this list was run. With the 3 units of wraiths being too big to fit in transports I guess two would go in the webway but the third is left foot slogging?
kingheff wrote: I'm curious how this list was run. With the 3 units of wraiths being too big to fit in transports I guess two would go in the webway but the third is left foot slogging?
Right, exactly -- and only 5 command points, so you're down to 2 off the bat with the webway. I don't want to call fluke on anybody doing well at a tournament, but I couldn't see how one would reproduce this. I bet this person benefited considerably from the tournament parameters.
Spartacus wrote: I wonder what was the purpose of the DE patrol is? Stratagems? Would it not be better to flesh out the Supreme command detachment as a CW battalion?
Spartacus wrote: I wonder what was the purpose of the DE patrol is? Stratagems? Would it not be better to flesh out the Supreme command detachment as a CW battalion?
for access to Agents of Vect.
If you're Webway Portalling 2 Squads, you wouldn't even have enough to do it once though. It that one party trick really worth gimping the list so hard?
Seeing as he won plenty, apparently it is. A lot about this list's doesn't make sense to me but I love seeing Wraithguard on the table at all.
Gives me some crumb of hope for the squads of axe, cannon and sword wraiths I'm taking down to my local gw store tomorrow. With an avatar too for good measure.
kingheff wrote: Gives me some crumb of hope for the squads of axe, cannon and sword wraiths I'm taking down to my local gw store tomorrow. With an avatar too for good measure.
The avatar is great but you really want to take advantage of his leadership bubble if you can, which the wraithguard better not need lol
kingheff wrote: I'm curious how this list was run. With the 3 units of wraiths being too big to fit in transports I guess two would go in the webway but the third is left foot slogging?
You are full LoS blocked if in ground floor terrain features for ITC rules (unless you have ignore LoS weapons), and most LoS weapons are S4/S5 0AP or -1ap, Nids has some strong ones, S8, -2ap, D3. there are some LoS ignore that is stronger but most dont take (Thunderfire cannons IMO are great for this).
Hey all, I brought a fluffy-ish Biel-Tan to my local gaming club at the weekend. I wanted to try out Shining Spears and Striking Scorpions in this edition and they were fairly lack lustre. It could have been the match-up or me playing them wrong, but I think I should have just loaded up on more shuriken weapons.
Let me know what you all think of this:
List 1750pts
Battalion Detachment:
1 Farseer w/ spear, doom, mind war
1 Spiritseer (warlord), w/ the spirit stone of anathlan, jinx/protect and Biel-Tan Natural Leader (pseudo-Guide)
3x 5 Dire Avengers inc. Exarch
10 Guardians w/ shuriken cannon platform
6 Striking Scorpions inc. Exarch w/ claw
6 Fire Dragons inc. Exarch
3 Shining Spears inc. Exarch
3x Wave Serpents w/ triple cannons (two had vectored engines)
Spearhead detachment:
1 Farseer w/ fortune and executioner
5 Dark Reapers inc. Exarch
2x 2 War Walkers w/ double shuriken cannons
My opponent brought Space Wolves, consisting of 45 fenrisian wolves, 5 cyberwolves, 2 lords on wolves (1 which makes dogs autopass leadership in a 12" bubble), a rune priest, 15 long fangs (5 Las, 5 Plas, 5 Missiles), an attack bike and some bikers.
I've spoilered the report to read at your leisure to give a bit of context to the list. TLDR: I won soundly.
Spoiler:
He set up first and I deployed my two farseers, dragons and dire avengers inside their respective serpents and largely huddled everything into a corner in case I didn't get first turn. I paid a CP for the guardians to set up in the webway, with my scorpions and war walkers with their own special reserve rules.
The mission was pitched battle or something, I just set out to kill everything.
Turn 1
I got first turn despite his +1 to take first turn which was great for me. I drove everything forward and shot up his wolves as I felt I needed to neuter his charges as much as possible. I used the spears as a screen for one wave serpent between some terrain after flying up and using fire and fade to retreat 7 inches. The reapers ate some of the long fangs with the spiritseer beside them and the spiritseer protected one wave serpent. I flew one serpent out to the side with a 5 man squad of avengers to see if my opponent would direct some wolves that way.
He did, which split his force in two and away from the 12" autopass morale bubble. He took some wounds off my serpents across the board and assaulted the isolated serpent and my spears which shielded my other serpent. Isolated serpent bit the dust and killed two of my avengers inside. My spears were wiped too and he consolidated towards my serpent.
Turn 2
The guardians came forth from the webway on the same flank as my war walkers, behind his advancing line of doggies, bikes and warlord. The scorpions jumped from their hiding spot to aid the 3 remaining avengers who were tying up 15 dogs and a lord. My other avengers disembarked with the farseers and the dragons did the same. The two serpents backed up a bit and the reapers moved up to get a target on his warlord. I fortuned a serpent closest to the long fangs, doomed and jinxed his warlord, failed executioner and mind war on different targets even with rerolls.
I obliterated the majority of his wolves in this turn with the pincer move of the walkers and the guardians on one side and the avengers on the other. The dragons killed off his bikes and attack bike and I proceeded to murder his warlord with the dark reapers. The scorpions charged and whiffed/didn't do anything worth their points other than kill half a dozen doggies.
His turn two involved charging his remaining wolves into the dire avengers, failing a charge with one squad and making it in with the other. Didn't get very far with them as they died to overwatch and killed two avengers. The rest died to morale on that side. The other lord and his dogs wiped the avengers and the scorpions but they were far away from my main force and were out of the game.
Turn 3
I rearranged my army into good positions and shot the wolves that were left, wiping the squad and putting the lord to one wound. I killed a long fang squad and killed another to a man and that was pretty much my turn.
My opponent called it there, seeing as I was in a much stronger position by the end of my T3.
Overview
Probably a really good match-up on my side, my weight of shots didn't care about the autopass morale bubble and any combat he got wasn't enough to put a dent in my army by the time he got there. I feel like the list I brought doesn't care about first turn due to the low model count on the board at the start of the game and the ability to strike in a pincer move with the guardians, walkers and the potential support of the scorpions.
The scorpions were disappointing and I don't think I'll be taking them again. Maybe it was a mismatch in terms of opponent, wolves aren't infantry so the mandiblasters couldn't deal out any mortal wounds. The 25% chance of a charge is also horrible so I guess they'd need their own transport to get them into combat. I still like them a lot though.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Hey all, I brought a fluffy-ish Biel-Tan to my local gaming club at the weekend. I wanted to try out Shining Spears and Striking Scorpions in this edition and they were fairly lack lustre.
So whatever he's doing works well against stacking minus to hit - only one unit of WG had D-Scythes. Rolling up against that many Eldar flyers for a whole tournament would give me nightmares.
I suppose Hemlocks only kill 2-3 WG per turn. And the remaining WG could potentially one turn the Hemlocks provided they hit with the wraithcannons on the following turn.
What do we do against the ork guns? I'm about to have a game with a buddy who's intent on running ~10 of the autohitting buggers. I plan to use the trusty guardian bomb, dark reapers and some shining spears as my core, but what else? Even serpents seem like a liability at this point, considering the points costs of those things. Then again, roll over and let them have their way isn't quite my style... what do you think? Is it time for warwalkers and wraithheavy lists?
Cpt. Icanus wrote: What do we do against the ork guns? I'm about to have a game with a buddy who's intent on running ~10 of the autohitting buggers. I plan to use the trusty guardian bomb, dark reapers and some shining spears as my core, but what else? Even serpents seem like a liability at this point, considering the points costs of those things. Then again, roll over and let them have their way isn't quite my style... what do you think? Is it time for warwalkers and wraithheavy lists?
They are T5, 6 wounds 5+ save so you should have decent time just killing them. If you go first, likely 60% chance vs orks, you should be able to remove quite a lot of them before they even shoot. Do you use ITC rules? Hiding your skimmers will protect from shooting as they don't ignore LOS.
Once you thin numbers they are much less scary. 3 will average 7.5 wounds vs falcon. 5.8 vs wave serpent so 6 wouldn't even in average kill a wave serpent while costing 270 pts
War walkers with twin star cannons should do well against them, coming in at 240 pts for a squad of three. Wraithlords with twin star cannons should do well too, with the ability to charge into big units of boyz, slowing up the green tide.
kingheff wrote: War walkers with twin star cannons should do well against them, coming in at 240 pts for a squad of three. Wraithlords with twin star cannons should do well too, with the ability to charge into big units of boyz, slowing up the green tide.
Tip. Don't plan too much about charging into big boys of boyz to slow them down. Fairly sure most big mobs of boyz you will be seeing are coming out of deep strike or da jumped and then charging needing 8" with reroll 1 or both dice. So plan more for ensuring those deep striking boyz don't make havoc on your lines.
kingheff wrote: War walkers with twin star cannons should do well against them, coming in at 240 pts for a squad of three. Wraithlords with twin star cannons should do well too, with the ability to charge into big units of boyz, slowing up the green tide.
Tip. Don't plan too much about charging into big boys of boyz to slow them down. Fairly sure most big mobs of boyz you will be seeing are coming out of deep strike or da jumped and then charging needing 8" with reroll 1 or both dice. So plan more for ensuring those deep striking boyz don't make havoc on your lines.
I wasn't saying that as a general rule, just that wraithlords are tough enough to survive melee against boyz, bogging them down to protect more valuable units. Even 90 choppa attacks ends up causing only 3.33 wounds against a wraithlord.
I've modified a list I made before to help against the green tide after the ork codex release. I have dire avengers creating a screen against the teleporty Boyz and then 2 20 man guardian blobs to deal with them. One guided and one with reroll ones from an autarch should be enough to really cripple 2 squads of boyz. Then shining spears and dark reapers to clean up or deal with the ork (relatively) light vehicles
I find Wave Serpents pretty good too. Go triple shuricannon and that is 9 S6 shots at BS3+, even on the move. They are tough enough to take a charge better than Guardians or Avengers (who can shelter inside or behind them). Next turn, the Serpents withdraw and still shoot (thanks to Fly) and your short-ranged infantry unload on them. Then maybe charge in some Striking Scorpions to finish them off.
Wraithguard with D-scythes are not a bad choice either. T6/3+ with 3 wounds each mean they can take a pounding. Their guns are possibly overkill but 5xD3 autohits each time they fire or get charged is not bad and they can withdraw from combat and still shoot thanks to their "Implacable" rule.
Well, 50 points for a 2+ sniper shot feels a bit much, i agree - especially as she's locked into Biel-Tan and an elite choice.
That said, the phase crystal is pretty nice, though, i think i'll take Illic for +30 points over her every single game. If she had been a HQ it might be an auto-take for Biel-Tan armies, but, Illic for +30 or a 5 man Ranger squad for +10 is just better.
Also, character protection. Typically, you want them shooting at your Rangers instead of your Reapers, but for an army without a backfield soft target, she might have a use.
Hi guys, recent polite dispute in a game - is the interaction between Jinx and invulnerable saves spelt out anywhere? The closest I can find to black-and-white is the Big FAQ where there's mention of invulnerable's benefiting from a +1; are we just making an assumption based on the negative corollary?
Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.
That suggests that a penalty to saves is likewise applied to both.
Thanks chaps. I think Spartacus has the closest answer for me; in hindsight my opponents logic chain (which I slipped into as well, to be fair) was that the invulnerable was what he'd already been modified down to (i.e that he'd gone from a 3+ to a 'firewall' of 5++) rather than the intended which is "I'm choosing to take my invulnerable save instead of my armour save".
Essentially king, yes, that seems to be it. The mistake is in perception, I think, and in my not really knowing (at the time) how to put it. But next time our group meets up I'll be fine.
Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws? A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.
That suggests that a penalty to saves is likewise applied to both.
When and where was this? b.c it could be referring to cover saves or alike. Not arguing mostly just asking.
Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.
That suggests that a penalty to saves is likewise applied to both.
When and where was this? b.c it could be referring to cover saves or alike. Not arguing mostly just asking.
First entry on page 8 of the rulebook FAQ.
Also, cover saves are slightly different, in that they specifically state modification of the armour save, not any save.
kingheff wrote: Doesn't jinx affect the rolls rather than the save itself? I'm away from the book but I think that's the difference.
It is. Players typically just shorthand it as a modified save value, as opposed to a modified save roll. You still need to meet the same threshold to make the save, you just have a little help doing it as opposed to having an easier threshold to meet.
Hi guys, I'm coming back to 40k after long break and gonna play Craftworlds. Can you suggest me what should I buy for start? I thought about buying Farseer, guardians, dire avengers and wave serpent. Is it a good idea if I want to start with small battles?
woodgun wrote: Hi guys, I'm coming back to 40k after long break and gonna play Craftworlds. Can you suggest me what should I buy for start? I thought about buying Farseer, guardians, dire avengers and wave serpent. Is it a good idea if I want to start with small battles?
If you're coming back at a fairly casual level look at the Craftworld half of the Wake the Dead box. It's a pretty solid starting patrol detachment. Supplement it with a Start Collecting and you're off to the races with a reasonable assortment of viable (but not bleeding edge) units.
The battleforce box set coming out for Christmas is a steal, farseer, 10 guardians, 5 avengers, 3 wind riders, a vyper and a wraithknight for £100 I believe. Combine that with the start collecting box and/or the eldar half of wake the dead and you've got a decent amount of units to build up from.
I really wish they hadn't put in the Wraithknight, but given how much trash they are in 8th I can't blame GW for trying to clear stock on a model nobody wants right now.
Sterling191 wrote: I really wish they hadn't put in the Wraithknight, but given how much trash they are in 8th I can't blame GW for trying to clear stock on a model nobody wants right now.
Patience. CA might make them somewhat worthwhile again. Although it would take about a 100pt drop for that to happen
grouchoben wrote: 5++ across all loadouts, rising to 4++ with the shield, would do the job imo.
Alternatively, give WKs spirit stones, because they literally have tons of them. And drop their points cost to be on par with IKs. That would do the job right
showing an Eldar force containing the WK and other wraiths. Apprently, according to the guys that did the leak video (who've been very accurate so far - French guys) that force is dropping 3-400 points.
grouchoben wrote: That's exactly what I'm doing heff! It's a great time to start CW...
It really is, the stuff may not be the best options going but you get plenty of them and they will give you an eldar looking eldar army.
Shame they didn't put an autarch in this new box, or at least a farseer on bike.
showing an Eldar force containing the WK and other wraiths. Apprently, according to the guys that did the leak video (who've been very accurate so far - French guys) that force is dropping 3-400 points.
I've seen that. I'll be honest the WK isn't my jam, even at a reasonable points cost (which we're easily more than 100 points away from right now).
I'm *much* more interested at WW and WL changes cause I'd love to put a bunch of those on the table.
showing an Eldar force containing the WK and other wraiths. Apprently, according to the guys that did the leak video (who've been very accurate so far - French guys) that force is dropping 3-400 points.
That's a big drop, but there are a lot of the the units that they're pushing out in their boxes so maybe they want to give you a reason to buy them. It'd be great if a wraith heavy list was a more optimal option.
Awesome if true! I already run WW and WL ‘cause the models are so cool - and hoping to pick up a WK for Crimbo for same reason.
I’ve also just picked up a squadron of 3 oldskool Warwalkers on eBay which I’m going to magnetize to take different weapons (I have a bunch spare), so if they’re cheaper too all to the good!
They’re coming with 40mm rounds, but I don’t think that’s big enough - anyone who has the old models, do you recommend 50mm or 60mm?
Also,now that split-fire is a thing, what do folks think of 3 Warwalkers with A Bright Lance and Starcannon/Shuricannon each? Playing Beil-Tan
Even with split fire, I’d try to keep your guns with similar range brackets. So no mixing shuricannons with the other guns. One could also argue about mixing MLs in there as well, but I think there is more of an issue in mixing 24" and 36” then 48/36.
I think running them pure shurican, especially with Beil-Tan, makes for a decent fire and forget backfield harassment unit. They come with their own re-rolls, so can work fine unsupported.
The other guns probably want to hang out closer to a seer for some buffs. With all those guns in one unit, you can leverage a singe cast of your powers farther. Mixing makes more sense here. Brightlance/Starcannon could be nasty, and threaten a large swath of your opponent’s table.
Nevelon wrote: Even with split fire, I’d try to keep your guns with similar range brackets. So no mixing shuricannons with the other guns. One could also argue about mixing MLs in there as well, but I think there is more of an issue in mixing 24" and 36” then 48/36.
I think running them pure shurican, especially with Beil-Tan, makes for a decent fire and forget backfield harassment unit. They come with their own re-rolls, so can work fine unsupported.
The other guns probably want to hang out closer to a seer for some buffs. With all those guns in one unit, you can leverage a singe cast of your powers farther. Mixing makes more sense here. Brightlance/Starcannon could be nasty, and threaten a large swath of your opponent’s table.
YMMV.
Points value notwithstanding, a three-pack of WWs with a Starcannon / Brightlance pairing is a pretty nifty target for Guide (or Biel-tan WL mini-Guide).
Going to try to build this list for a future tournament. (have not played a tournament in 15+ years)
Spoiler:
Iyanden Battalion
HQ Farseer Skyrunner 135
HQ Index Autarch with Banshee Mask, Death Spinner and Faolchu's Wing 83{warlord}
T 5 rangers 60
T 8 Storm Guardians 56
T 10 Defender Guardians 80
E 5 Howling Banshees with Executioner 68
E 5 Fire Dragons with Fire Pike 123
Flyer Crimson Hunter 160
HVY Falcon with Shuriken cannon x2 155
HVY Falcon with Shuriken Cannon x 2 155
HVY 3 Dark Reapers 102
TRANS Wave Serpent 3 shuriken cannons 134
TRANS Wave Serpent twin Scatter lasers and shuriken cannon +CTM 139
Saim-Hann Outrider Detachment
HQ Autarch Skyrunner Nova Lance 103
FA 6 windriders 3 with scatter lasers 153
FA Vyper with Bright Lance 75
FA Vyper with Bright Lance 75
HVY Night Spinner with CTM 140
I think that is 1999 {anyone care to check my math}
only 9 cps and still a whopping 12 drops....so much for a small mech elder list lol
Rangers in reserve.
10 defender guardians in a wave Serpent with CTM
8 storm guardians and 3 dark reapers in Serpent
Banshees and Dragons in the Falcon
The Autarch with the Wings goes in 1 tank as well. He deploys and moves 12"+ advances with tanks to add Path of Command
tanks form a line with Serpents in frong and flanked by vypers and jetbikes who hide as best they can behind tanks. Night Spinner brings up the Rear Flank
Farseer flys in the middle of the tanks.
Nova Lance Autarch waits for his target to charge and destroy.
Crimson Hunter does his thing in the back til he needs to block chargers.
I have not played a flyer since the first month of 8th ed. and never played the Crimson Hunter....but I hear it is good.
I think I have decent fire power and good mobility. Not much hth (storm guardians are more for screens and stuff)
Thoughts or concerns????
thanks
I am thinking of the Warlord trait that adds 2" to the move speed so the Warlord will move at 14" . But I could give him Iyandens trait for a 3rd Deny the Witch roll.
Looks a bit light on anti tank to me. You've maybe got too much anti infantry if anything. Swap out the reapers and banshees for another unit of fire dragons maybe? Taking out the windriders for two more vypers or spears looks good to me too. Using vehicles backed up by autarch support looks like your best melee option, it's not really what the army is built for though so I'd imagine it being more of a counter charging situation.
It's in line with all deep strike abilities, and that function actually works now. Before this fix you couldn't legally use the non-standard deployment mode.
Hey folks,
I know CA 2018 is right around the corner, but I'm looking to start a second army besides my AdMech and I'm researching if Eldar are the right thing for me.
I want to play a really mobile army comprised of mechanised Infantry and tanks or flyers. The Eldar psy power is an added bonus for me.
Would such a army work? I play in a quite competitive environment and want at least be able to give my opponents a run for their money.
Also with the rumored nerf to Alaitoc's -1 to hit: Which Craftworld would be most suitable for this playstyle? And is there a reason to run Craftworld vs Ynnari?
Three squads of guardians riding in serpents backed by fire prisms, crimson hunter flyers, HQ's on bikes with some shining spears should be pretty competitive and fulfill your requirements pretty handily.
A rough 2000 pts list has autarch, farseer and warlock on jetbike, three squads of ten guardians with platform, three wave serpents, a squad of eight shining spears, three fire prisms and four crimson hunters two of which are exarchs.
With plenty of shuriken fire Biel tan works well for the re-roll ones.
lash92 wrote: Hey folks,
I know CA 2018 is right around the corner, but I'm looking to start a second army besides my AdMech and I'm researching if Eldar are the right thing for me.
I want to play a really mobile army comprised of mechanised Infantry and tanks or flyers. The Eldar psy power is an added bonus for me.
Would such a army work? I play in a quite competitive environment and want at least be able to give my opponents a run for their money.
Also with the rumored nerf to Alaitoc's -1 to hit: Which Craftworld would be most suitable for this playstyle? And is there a reason to run Craftworld vs Ynnari?
I played this list in a tournament a few weeks ago. Not the most ultra-competetive but real fun. Went 3 wins and 2 draws. Next time i would swap the hemlock for another prism and spirit seer and drop the cannon on the 10-man guardian squad to get all the chsracters into the serpents. A lone hemlock is basically a suicide unit and fire prisms are crazy good!
Budzerker wrote: So... how do we beat orks. Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...
Webway portalling in a Guardian bomb might help. Obviously not possible T1 so use for first round of shooting to clear out the grot screen on one facing so as to give the Guardians somewhere to land and a proper LOS. I am trying to decide if Striking Scorpions might actually be useful to clear them out.
I used 15 D scythe Wraithguard in Shuricannon Wave Serpents to squash a 120 man Catachan melee horde yesterday. They use the extra move from disembarking plus advance to get in range and melt about 30 enemies in your shooting phase, then again when they get charged. They're tough enough to survive mostly intact then you just fall back and melt some more.
I've had no experience with Orks since the new codex came out but I imagine they will be a similar kind of enemy to face.
Ulthwe Battalion
Eldrad
Warlock
10 Rangers
12 man Guardian Squad
15 D-ScytheGuard
3 WSerpents
1498
Im thinking about ditching Eldrad from the list next time and just going with a Spiritseer, then adding more Wraithguard
Not fast enough to shoot on T1. Ful loota star(which I think he's mostly worried about) will cause 9 wounds past save. Needs 2 of those to down one wraithguard(damage 2) so 4 guard dies. Then they will shoot again. So you would be looking at 2 squads having lost 4 members in average once they are out of transports so make sure to disembark AFTER you have dealt with loota star or prepare to lose most of them if that loota star is still alive.
Also don't count on orks charging you anymore. They have become more of shooty army with the codex funnily enough.
Seriously high rate of fire will thin down by sheer weight of numbers. That 2+ grot screen save doesn't last forever. Alternatively if you have high rate of S3-S4 AP-1 weapons you MIGHT consider firing grots directly and to bypass the ork T4 and deal with grot T2 instead. You lose 1/6 of wounds going to lootas though.
CP expensive solution is to have the dark eldar allies and use the vect to stop the grot screen strategem when you shoot with your best anti-infantry gun and vaporize most of squad(rule Q: can ork use that strategem again for next gun?). Going to be expensive CP wise but ork army could get screwed by losing that huge firepower just like that.
tneva82 wrote: Not fast enough to shoot on T1. Ful loota star(which I think he's mostly worried about) will cause 9 wounds past save. Needs 2 of those to down one wraithguard(damage 2) so 4 guard dies. Then they will shoot again. So you would be looking at 2 squads having lost 4 members in average once they are out of transports so make sure to disembark AFTER you have dealt with loota star or prepare to lose most of them if that loota star is still alive.
Also don't count on orks charging you anymore. They have become more of shooty army with the codex funnily enough.
Seriously high rate of fire will thin down by sheer weight of numbers. That 2+ grot screen save doesn't last forever. Alternatively if you have high rate of S3-S4 AP-1 weapons you MIGHT consider firing grots directly and to bypass the ork T4 and deal with grot T2 instead. You lose 1/6 of wounds going to lootas though.
CP expensive solution is to have the dark eldar allies and use the vect to stop the grot screen strategem when you shoot with your best anti-infantry gun and vaporize most of squad(rule Q: can ork use that strategem again for next gun?). Going to be expensive CP wise but ork army could get screwed by losing that huge firepower just like that.
If mass 2 Damage shooting is the scariest thing about Orks right now, I'd suggest that Wave Serpents filled with something must be an auto-include. They would laugh off that kind of shooting, protect your more vulnerable stuff and add some decent Shuricannon fire.
tneva82 wrote: Not fast enough to shoot on T1. Ful loota star(which I think he's mostly worried about) will cause 9 wounds past save. Needs 2 of those to down one wraithguard(damage 2) so 4 guard dies. Then they will shoot again. So you would be looking at 2 squads having lost 4 members in average once they are out of transports so make sure to disembark AFTER you have dealt with loota star or prepare to lose most of them if that loota star is still alive.
Also don't count on orks charging you anymore. They have become more of shooty army with the codex funnily enough.
Seriously high rate of fire will thin down by sheer weight of numbers. That 2+ grot screen save doesn't last forever. Alternatively if you have high rate of S3-S4 AP-1 weapons you MIGHT consider firing grots directly and to bypass the ork T4 and deal with grot T2 instead. You lose 1/6 of wounds going to lootas though.
CP expensive solution is to have the dark eldar allies and use the vect to stop the grot screen strategem when you shoot with your best anti-infantry gun and vaporize most of squad(rule Q: can ork use that strategem again for next gun?). Going to be expensive CP wise but ork army could get screwed by losing that huge firepower just like that.
If mass 2 Damage shooting is the scariest thing about Orks right now, I'd suggest that Wave Serpents filled with something must be an auto-include. They would laugh off that kind of shooting, protect your more vulnerable stuff and add some decent Shuricannon fire.
True wave serpents are loota hard counter. For those orks will likely be using smasha guns(32pts, averages over 1 hit per gun, equal t at 2d6, d6 damage),kustom mega kannons(more expensive, bit more hits, s8) or traktor kannon(45pts, 1 autohit, s8, vs flying vehicle 2d6 pick highest damage and auto explosion). In particular expect smasha guns to be very popular. Good thing is they are just t5 6 wounds though for 32pts not that soft.
But yeah. Wave serpent is good spoil for loota star. Only 9 damage per 2 shot round. If they get 3 shots per loota(1/3 chance, cp reroll used for 1 shot) they average wave serpent. And shoot twice means one will be wrecked in any case but that's bit dissapointing result. Of course 3 shots on first salvo means average one dead and one seriously dented one.
Hi guys, i was looking for some eldar to expand my collection, i was wondering if someone could give me a sort of tier list, so that i dont buy something i will never play. Thank you
(consider i know almost nothing about eldar in 8th)
Chapter Approved 2018 is expected to drop in the next few weeks. If you can, hold off on making any decisions until then, especially if your criteria is unit capability and not hobbyist interest.
Sterling191 wrote: Chapter Approved 2018 is expected to drop in the next few weeks. If you can, hold off on making any decisions until then, especially if your criteria is unit capability and not hobbyist interest.
Budzerker wrote: So... how do we beat orks. Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...
Probably the best thing you can do is take night spinners or a unit of shadow weavers. Just bait out the stratagem and then shoot something else. Or another okay idea is just to remove the grots with a really efficient weapon...like scatter bikes (what are those things) very good at killing grots and orks though.
Budzerker wrote: So... how do we beat orks. Lootas out of LoS behind a Grot shield especially...
Probably the best thing you can do is take night spinners or a unit of shadow weavers. Just bait out the stratagem and then shoot something else. Or another okay idea is just to remove the grots with a really efficient weapon...like scatter bikes (what are those things) very good at killing grots and orks though.
Also worth to consider swooping hawks 24" assault 4 guns can work quite well to clear Grots or even T3 hordes with enough mobility to properly position themselves.
Yes, Hawks are excellent for mowing down Grots. A basic 65 point squad has great mobility and will kill 8-9 grots per volley. They are not bad vs Ork boyz either.
Sterling191 wrote: Because charging with Windriders and Vypers is such a brilliant idea...
Agreed, however an Autarch and Spears will definitely benefit from that too. Farseers and Warlocks are situational, but there are times that it could be beneficial.
Sterling191 wrote: Because charging with Windriders and Vypers is such a brilliant idea...
Agreed, however an Autarch and Spears will definitely benefit from that too. Farseers and Warlocks are situational, but there are times that it could be beneficial.
Spears aren't listed as a unit which can be part of the formation.
Sterling191 wrote: Because charging with Windriders and Vypers is such a brilliant idea...
Agreed, however an Autarch and Spears will definitely benefit from that too. Farseers and Warlocks are situational, but there are times that it could be beneficial.
Spears aren't listed as a unit which can be part of the formation.
Yikes, missed that one. Well, perhaps one of the stratagems gives them some sort of super hammer of wrath charge?
bullyboy wrote: Wraithknight down by over 100pts, that is good news!
Not quite "over" 100pts. The wording of the Community article said it dropped to just over 300pts before weapons. As the current WK is 402, it'd have to be 301 to be "over" 100pt drop. More likely it's between 302 and like 320. Either way, a very welcome change.
I might take out my 3 WK list for a spin again.
Yikes, missed that one. Well, perhaps one of the stratagems gives them some sort of super hammer of wrath charge?
Unless it's on a 3+ or something, its not remotely worth the risk of the charge.
Depends on what you are charging. There's definitely a reason to charge a Leman Russ (or some other tank variant) with jet bikes to stop it from shooting. In that instance, the mortal wounds would be icing on the cake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A sword and board WK for 372 with shoulder weapons is still a tough sell for me. It's absolutely better than one at 472, but that's still too much for something that is too vulnerable. Now if they tack on spirit stones, then we've got some potential...
I dunno. Melee knights have +1 WS and attack over a WK; the WK would cost even with sword and board. In exchange for that +1 WS and attack, you get your invuln 100% of the time and access to much better psychic support. I'm not going to say top tier but I think pretty useful.
If the sun cannon could be something more like an AGC? That would then be legit.
Why these were not originally part of the model's options is beyond me. Nonetheless, they aren't in the plastic kit, so they will likely never be added as options.
I also feel like the shoulder weapons shouldn't be optional, similar to how a WL has to take 2 of either Catapults or Flamers
So, I’ve been having a couple of discussions with people in regards to the new Wraith Host +1 attack stratagem and how it stacks specifically in relation with Wraith Blades with Swords and the Iyandan Relic.
Wraith Blades have 2 base attacks.
They get +1 attack if they charge.
If you use the stratagem they get another +1 attack,
and then, if using the swords, another +1 attack. So, before the relic is taken into account they can have a base attack stat of 5.
The question is, does the Iyandan Relic double the 5, or, does the additional sword attack get added to the total after the multiplication?
In the “strength modifiers and power fist” faq example, we see that the base stat is modified first, and then the weapon then applies its multiplication bonus. If the weapons “ability” is always applied last, then, this would result each Wraith Blade having 9 attacks in a turn they charge, use the strat and pop the relic.
If the weapons ability is taken into account before the relics multiplication, it would result in 10 attacks per model.
Another interpretation I’ve seen so far, is that the relic only affects the “starting” attack number (i.e. 2), and then the additional bonuses are applied after, giving a total of 7 attacks per model.
I’m personally leaning more towards the result being 9 attacks per model, due to how the power fist works, but I can also see it being 10 attacks with the relic popping after everything else.
I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.
Nevermind, i found the note in the designers commentary that shows it'll only be 7 per model.
Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.
This shows that you do the doubling first, then all the additions :(
Still i now want to get a large unit of axe-wraithblades for my counts-as Ulthwe wraithhost. 4 powerfist attacks per model on the charge, especially if they get cheaper on t6, 3+/4++/6+++ seems tasty.
I know that the swords get an extra attack, but I exclusively use the axe guard simply due to resiliency. With Protect/Fortune, they are absolutely a nightmare to take out. 4 attacks each, or 6 with psytronome is pretty tasty, especially if you already spent a CP on Guided Wraithsight. With this new warhost, I'm going to have to revisit a foot Iyanden list again.
The WK change is nice, but 415 for the HWC variant is still too much. The sword variant may see play at 365 to 391 depending on shoulder guns. The real winner to me though is the Skathach at 510 with the deathshroud cannons. Deep strike allows that variant to avoid alpha strike.
Windriders are now 18pts with the twin shuriken, which is awesome!
mokoshkana wrote: The WK change is nice, but 415 for the HWC variant is still too much. The sword variant may see play at 365 to 391 depending on shoulder guns. The real winner to me though is the Skathach at 510 with the deathshroud cannons. Deep strike allows that variant to avoid alpha strike.
But deep striking it means you miss out on a whole turns worth of shooting. Is that worth it on a 500+pt model? Not for me. But the Suncannon variant look decent now
mokoshkana wrote: Windriders are now 18pts with the twin shuriken, which is awesome!
I think the real winner is Scatterbikes. Scatter laser went down to 7ppm, which combined with the decrease on WRs themselves, makes a WR with Scatter lasers cost the same as WRs with Twin-cats pre-CA
mokoshkana wrote: The WK change is nice, but 415 for the HWC variant is still too much. The sword variant may see play at 365 to 391 depending on shoulder guns. The real winner to me though is the Skathach at 510 with the deathshroud cannons. Deep strike allows that variant to avoid alpha strike.
But deep striking it means you miss out on a whole turns worth of shooting. Is that worth it on a 500+pt model? Not for me. But the Suncannon variant look decent now
I think forgoing the turn of shooting in order to protect your WK and set it up for a charge is (although at 9") is worth it. Plus with the Deathshroud Cannons, being 10" range, you've got really great options when you come onto the table.
mokoshkana wrote: Windriders are now 18pts with the twin shuriken, which is awesome!
I think the real winner is Scatterbikes. Scatter laser went down to 7ppm, which combined with the decrease on WRs themselves, makes a WR with Scatter lasers cost the same as WRs with Twin-cats pre-CA
Agreed, this is great news for Saim-Hann players. I also think that Twin-cat bikes now have some potential at that low price of 18.
At 11ppm Dire Avengers is pretty solid. I would have liked to have seen 10ppm, but I'll take it. Now that rangers are nerfed horribly, I think they'll see play for sure.
I'm actually thinking mixed weapons on WRs might actually be worthwhile now. There's now a 8ppm difference between Twin-cat WRs and Shuricannon WRs and Scatterlasers are right in between both.
So a potential build that could be appealing might be: 5 WRs with 3 Shuricannons and 2 Twin-cats. The Twin-cats acting as ablative wounds and being front and center as the unit moves forward to get range, so you can take them as casualties to extend enemy charges. 106pt unit
Or, what I might personally do because I have them modeled as such: 6 WRs w/ 4 Shuricannons and 2 Scatter lasers. It's a nice even 150pt unit that can move in a way to get the Shuricannons in range, but not have to move the Scatterbikes. As you take casualties, you can take the Scatters first, as they are the cheapest. If you need to Advance, you only lose 2 model's shooting (or none if the Scatters have been removed)
Windriders with twin cats do look pretty tasty now. 162 pts for a max squad makes them two points more than a max defender blob. With two less wounds but greater survivability, without strats anyway, and only four less shots with the fly keyword and great speed. Plus they don't need the deep strike to get in range.
kingheff wrote: Windriders with twin cats do look pretty tasty now. 162 pts for a max squad makes them two points more than a max defender blob. With two less wounds but greater survivability, without strats anyway, and only four less shots with the fly keyword and great speed. Plus they don't need the deep strike to get in range.
But sadly they cannot be compared to Guardian blobs due to not being Troops.
I'm still trying to figure out if WRs have anything to offer than Spears or Vypers don't do better. It should be that they're the cheapest option, but I'm not sure that pans out from an efficiency standpoint.
Spears and Vypers are more durable per point and are capable of causing about the same damage per point.
Besides "because I've had the models as my core army since 4E", is there any reason to take them?
I'm feeling that five man avenger squads for back field objective holding is probably the way to go for troops now, three squads for 165 isn't bad value, at least if you look at it as a troop tax.
Vypers are more durable but lack the firepower, spears are spears, the only downside being that they have a massive bullseye painted on them!
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.
Nevermind, i found the note in the designers commentary that shows it'll only be 7 per model.
Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.
This shows that you do the doubling first, then all the additions :(
This will probably get lost in the CA hubbub, but I still think the designers' commentary (accidentally) gives us an answer of 9:
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.
This doesn't exactly answer the question exactly, but it does show that the designers' intent was for modifiers to still follow sequential order; i.e. the S is doubled and then reduced by 1, resulting in a S of 5 instead of 4. So if we take that heuristic and apply it to the wraithblades, we see that the addition modifiers Fires of Wrath and Wrath of the Dead occur before the multiplication modifiers (i.e. in the charge phase rather than the fight phase). Then, the psytronome triggers, getting us to 8 attacks, and the Ghostswords trigger after that (as per the blurb that you quoted), getting us to 9. Basically, I think that blurb on order of operations is really misleading; if 2 modifiers occur simultaneously, you multiply first and then add, but if they're not simultaneous, you apply them in the order they occur.
kingheff wrote: I'm feeling that five man avenger squads for back field objective holding is probably the way to go for troops now, three squads for 165 isn't bad value, at least if you look at it as a troop tax.
Storm Gaurdians might actually be better as "don't really contribute anything other than cheap CPs" Troops. 8 models for 48pts vs 5 models for 55pts. Plop them in cover and forget about them.
I still like Rangers for their late game objective grabbing and an occasional MW, but I might throw in a min Storm Gaurdian Squad in as a cheaper screen
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I think it's only the base attacks, charge and strat that get doubled, as it says "double its attack characteristic". The additional attacks from the swords, other than the others, are applied in the fight phase "when this model attacks..."-style, so don't alter the datasheet, i.e. the attacks characteristic.The bonus attack from the stratagem and charge should get doubled though.
With things that happen "at the start of x phase" i think i remember the player whose turn it is decides on order. I'll see if i can dig up a source.
Nevermind, i found the note in the designers commentary that shows it'll only be 7 per model.
Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength
characteristic, and that model is equipped
with a melee weapon that also has a
modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain
the order in which the modifiers are
applied to the characteristics and the
weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s
current Strength characteristic. To do so
apply all modifiers to it that multiply or
divide the value, then apply any that add
or subtract to it. Having done this, you
then modify this value as described by the
weapon’s Strength characteristic.
This shows that you do the doubling first, then all the additions :(
This will probably get lost in the CA hubbub, but I still think the designers' commentary (accidentally) gives us an answer of 9:
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength
characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a
friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an
enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic.
That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then
fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength
characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at
Strength 10.
This doesn't exactly answer the question exactly, but it does show that the designers' intent was for modifiers to still follow sequential order; i.e. the S is doubled and then reduced by 1, resulting in a S of 5 instead of 4. So if we take that heuristic and apply it to the wraithblades, we see that the addition modifiers Fires of Wrath and Wrath of the Dead occur before the multiplication modifiers (i.e. in the charge phase rather than the fight phase). Then, the psytronome triggers, getting us to 8 attacks, and the Ghostswords trigger after that (as per the blurb that you quoted), getting us to 9. Basically, I think that blurb on order of operations is really misleading; if 2 modifiers occur simultaneously, you multiply first and then add, but if they're not simultaneous, you apply them in the order they occur.
The problem with this is that the Stratagem does not tell us to modify the attack characteristic. It just says they gain an +1 attack, which is a subtle difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kingheff wrote: I'm feeling that five man avenger squads for back field objective holding is probably the way to go for troops now, three squads for 165 isn't bad value, at least if you look at it as a troop tax.
Vypers are more durable but lack the firepower, spears are spears, the only downside being that they have a massive bullseye painted on them!
New points:
Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannon = 60
2x Winrider with Shuriken Cannon = 56
There's a massive durability difference in those 4 points...
Sorry I've missed something. How have they been nerfed?
They weren't. Unless you were using them as turn 1 screens that also pushed back enemy units. They can still do that, of course, but they have to deploy like a normal unit.
Personally, I think Rangers got BETTER, since you can bring them in on later turns to grab an objective.
New points: Vyper with 2x Shuriken Cannon = 60 2x Winrider with Shuriken Cannon = 56
There's a massive durability difference in those 4 points...
Agreed, but look at this: Vyper with Scatter laser/twin-cat = 49 2x WR with 1 Scatter/1 twin-cat = 41
That's an 8pt difference, which isn't much, but it show that when comparing the 2, maybe the same loadout isn't the best to compare Afterall, WRs cannot take BLs, StarCannons or MLs and a Vyper cannot take 2 of the same weapon outside Shuricannons I still agree, WRs are shafted by Vypers and Spears existing, but at least they're more on par than before
Bharring wrote: "+1 attack" means "Find the 'Attack' characteristic, and add one". It does not mean "And roll one more time to hit".
Plus, the strat actually does say to add 1 to the attacks characteristic. The only thing that doesn't is the text of the ghostsword, which I don't think anybody can claim gets multiplied anyways (by PEMDAS). So all in all, I think this has to be 9 attacks per wraithdude (doesn't this sound fun???)
Bharring wrote: "+1 attack" means "Find the 'Attack' characteristic, and add one". It does not mean "And roll one more time to hit".
Plus, the strat actually does say to add 1 to the attacks characteristic. The only thing that doesn't is the text of the ghostsword, which I don't think anybody can claim gets multiplied anyways (by PEMDAS). So all in all, I think this has to be 9 attacks per wraithdude (doesn't this sound fun???)
Apologies, I incorrectly remembered how that stratagem read. I thought it was something along the lines of "may make an additional attack" which would not modify the characteristic. That's what I get for not double checking.
8 man storm guardians aren't bad as the cheapest troops for screening, avengers have a bit more firepower and range, plus the exarch has his invulnerable, it's probably a toss up.
Shuriken cannon windriders look a bit overpriced, that's why I'd stick to twin catapults. Chapter approved seems to have done its job though, spears were the only competitive choice out of the three, now at least we can have a debate!
I'll take swooping hawks over rangers for late game objective grabbing personally, but they're not troops so that's in rangers favour.
kingheff wrote: 8 man storm guardians aren't bad as the cheapest troops for screening, avengers have a bit more firepower and range, plus the exarch has his invulnerable, it's probably a toss up.
Shuriken cannon windriders look a bit overpriced, that's why I'd stick to twin catapults. Chapter approved seems to have done its job though, spears were the only competitive choice out of the three, now at least we can have a debate!
I'll take swooping hawks over rangers for late game objective grabbing personally, but they're not troops so that's in rangers favour.
Yeah, when 8E dropped and removed my only Troop choice (WRs) I had to go out and get Rangers as the next best option. Storm Guardians and Dire Avengers going down give more options for me.
I still like Rangers best because they basically have a Webway Portal for free. Since units cannot drop in Turn 1 at all in Matched Play I don't fee the urgent need for a Turn 1 Screen.
So Rangers can drop down when and where I need them
Worth to notice the Sword and Board Wraithknight will be 375 points with CA, since they upped the Scattershield to 30p instead 20p, so maybe there is a slight chance it may grant a 4++ now?
Lord Perversor wrote: Worth to notice the Sword and Board Wraithknight will be 375 points with CA, since they upped the Scattershield to 30p instead 20p, so maybe there is a slight chance it may grant a 4++ now?
one can wish.
If it does, that isn't even the "final nail" in the HWC WK's coffin. It's more like ripping open the coffin, dumping flaming refuse onto the WK, putting the lid back on, then putting the final nail in it. Because no one in their right mind would take a 415pt WK with no invul over a 375-405 variant with 4++
Now if the WK gets an new datasheet in CA granting it a 5++ (even if it's just against shooting) on all variants, than we are in business. But not such leak has been hinted at.
Sorry I've missed something. How have they been nerfed?
The changes in big FAQ #2 mean that they can either deploy normally, or be forced to arrive by 'deep strike' on turn 2, with a -1 to hit with their already weak long rifles. This is pretty horrible compared to their old ability to deploy wherever and screen/shoot at full BS right away on turn one. \
They're still good at camping one or two objectives in your deployment zone, but other than that, they're a pretty iffy choice IMO, especially if you are trying to fill out double battalion.
I'm pretty sure that things that modify attack value (the new Stratagem I believe) are added to the base value, and then that number is doubled via the Psytronome. Attacks added for Wargear options (you may make an additional attack with this weapon) is done after all other modifiers have gone off... as it is "an additional" attack after the normal attacks have been resolved.
It would look like this:
Wraithblades: 2 Attacks
Stratagem: +1 Attack Characteristic (says to add directly to the characteristic)
Their charge trait also states that they gain +1 attack characteristic when they charge, exact same language.
The would bring them up to 4 Attacks, which the Psytronome would double to 8. Then when they actually start making their attacks, they elect to make 8 attacks with their blades, and an additional attack with the blades (per the wargear) for a total of 9.
Looks like 85 points based off what I can see. Pretty good if you as me.
I see War Walkers got reduced to 40ppm from 50ppm. That's kinda awesome. I always loved war walkers but I reckon that'll make it a serious consideration in higher point games.
Really happy with the war walkers, six wounds at toughness 6 with the invulnerable save and scouting for 40 points is great value.
I'm wondering about a big blob of storm guardians to accompany the avatar, using his fearless aura. With chainswords for the extra attack, they could do some work with the 4+ invulnerable strategy and protect. 24 for 144 pts they could be a nasty tarpit.
Agusto wrote: Has anyone with really good eyesight been able to decipher what the cost of the Wraithlord is going to be?
Looks like 85 points based off what I can see. Pretty good if you as me.
Definitely. With WKs coming down 80 ppm and Wraithlords nearly 20 (plus the drops in various weapons), I can see my Wraithhost getting dusted off.
It might see me digging into my start collecting box that has been languishing in the pile of shame. Seeing D-scythes cut by 2 points doesn't seem like a lot but it makes up for the marginal increase of Wave Serpents. Plus, I don't have any wraith units so with the focus on them in the Vigilus maybe another SC! box might be a solid investment.
I'm also very happy about the drop in points for Dire Avengers, I take them anyway and making them cheaper just makes it better. Asurmen might be worth giving a try once CA is released/
The full irony it's the wraithguard changes, making them 10 points cheaper by reducing both weapons cost by 2, while keeping the model at same price seems odd.
Even more so when Wraithblades took no changes at all.
Also just add Storm guardians and Guardian defenders to the mix, so melee version it's 6 points worth but shooty one 8 points just for 1 extra shoot , means that unless you want a guardian bomb Storm defenders are always better.
Best change so far, for 88 points you can get a 8 man dire avenger squad with 18" range and 5++ save wich may become a decent all around troop right now.
No has mentioned this but striking scorpions went down 3 points. Bitting blade went down 3 point and scorpion claw went down 3 points. 5 man squad of scorpions with exarch with claw cost 64 points. That might make them useful.
I'm guessing that blades didn't get a drop because they've got more strats and the psytronome to buff them? I'll take a 20 point drop to my webway ten cannon blob quite happily. The psytronome charge combo for blades isn't that easy to pull off but it's mighty effective when it does.
Wraithguard and Wraithblades are expensive but they're tough as old boots and can dish out a lot of damage. They give us a real board presence along with wave serpents. They didn't need much adjusting. Roll in cheaper wraithlords and sword and board knights and you've got a fast melee army that hits like a truck and is very tough to take down quickly.
clodax66 wrote: No has mentioned this but striking scorpions went down 3 points. Bitting blade went down 3 point and scorpion claw went down 3 points. 5 man squad of scorpions with exarch with claw cost 64 points. That might make them useful.
I really want to hope that they'll do something now that they're a cheap combat unit but I honestly don't think they can compete outside of casual games. I'll give them another try, but they have no fast and reliable way of getting into combat unless you use that stratagem to give them +2" to their charge when they deepstrike. On a similar note, I'm disappointed that nothing happened to Banshees, they're in a similar spot.
Yeah, scorpions look interesting as objective grabbers. With a 2+ in cover and their deepstrike. Still probably prefer hawks myself for the speed after deepstrike but scorpions become a decent option at that price.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Banshees do ok from a wave serpent, they're not special in combat but they eat overwatch and the exarch with executioner is nice plus her debuff. Deploying 3" from the serpent, moving, advancing and then charging? Sounds good to me, great for shutting down screening units with decent firepower, making flamers even more useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I couldn't read the avatar points value, I guess he must have changed?
So it took me a while to find out where things were and where the discussion was happening, but I figured that I'd rip someone's point change list from Reddit and post it here for conveinience's sake.
Spoiler:
Dark reapers : 12 (no change)
Falcon : 110 (-15)
Farseer : 110 (no change)
Fire Dragons : 10 (+3)
Night Spinner : 110 (-25)
Shining Spears : 24 (+6)
Spiritseer : 65 (no change)
Storm Guardians : 6 (-1)
Striking Scorpions : 10 (-3)
Support Weapons : 25 (-5)
vyper : 40 (-10)
war walkers : 40 (-10)
warlock : 55 (no change)
warlock conclave : 45 (no change)
wave serpent : 120 (+13)
windriders : 16 (-2)
wraithknight : 315 (-87)
wraithlord : 85 (-18)
Avatar : 220 (-30)
Eldrad : 135 (-15?)
Fuegan : 140 (-10)
Jain Zar : 117? (-23?)
Karandras 125 (-25)
Yriel : 70 (-30)
Missile Launcher : 20 (-5)
Avenger Catapult : 3 (-1)
Biting Blade : 5 (-3)
D-Scythe : 20 (-2)
Death Spinner : 6 (-2)
Dragons Breath Flamer : 14 (-3)
Firepike : 17 (-3)
Flamer : 6 (-3)
Fusion gun : 14 (-3)
Fusion pistol : 7 (-2)
Scatter Laser : 7 (-3)
Scattershield : 30 (+10)
Scorpions Claw : 9 (-3)
Shadow Weaver : 12 (-13)
Shimmershield : 10 (-10)
Starcannon : 13 (-2)
Suncannon : 60 (- 58)
Twin Missile Launcher : 40 (-10)
Twin Scat Laser : 12 (-5)
Twin Shuri Catapult : 2 (-3)
Twin Starcannon : 24 (-4)
Vibro cannon : 15 (-15)
Wraithcannon : 15 (-2)
Forgeworld:
Corsair Cloud Dancer Band: 20
Corsair Cloud Dancer Felarch: 25
Corsair Reaver Band: 7
Corsair Reaver Felarch: 12
Corsair Skyreaver Band: 10
Corsair Skyreaver Felarch: 15
Hornet: 60 -25
Phoenix: 183
Revenant Titan: 2000
Scorpion: 700
Skathach Wraithknight: 420
Vampire Hunter: 1500
Warp Hunter: 275? hard to read
Wasp Assault Walker: 55
Wraithseer: 100 -25
Aeldari missile launcher: 20 -5
d-cannon: 45
deathshroud cannon: 45
flamer: 6
Fusion gun: 14
Hornet pulse laser: 25 -5
Prism Blaster: 25 -5
Prism Rifle: 20 -5
Scatter Laser: 7
Shuriken cannon: 10
Sonic Lance: 60
starcannon: 13 -2
Twin shuriken cannon: 17
Twin shuriken catapult: 2 -3
twin starcannon: 24 -4
wraithcannon: 15 -2
I hope this helps somewhat.
On another note, does the point reductions for Support Batteries tickle anyone's fancy? I like the models but they were not worth it. Cheapest for them now is 37 points for a shadow weaver so does a reduction of 18 points make a big difference per platform?
Avatar dropped 30 points which in my opinion makes a footdar list pretty viable.
Also updated it to show the Forgeworld units that got point reductions and increases. I don't know the original costs from CA 2017 so it's not much of a use but I'll update it should anyone tell me.
Skatach Knight got dropped 100 points I think? Does that make it much better than the other options on the codex knights?
Tyranid Horde wrote: Also updated it to show the Forgeworld units that got point reductions and increases. I don't know the original costs from CA 2017 so it's not much of a use but I'll update it should anyone tell me.
Skatach Knight got dropped 100 points I think? Does that make it much better than the other options on the codex knights?
Your values for prism blaster/prism rifle are reversed. They actually went up by 5 points each, not down :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also RIP Scorpion, Phoenix, Vampire Hunter, and Revenant Titan.
Not like any of these actually saw play but I've always loved the idea of fielding a Scorpion someday.
Were prism rifles/blasters changes in CA 2017? If not those are 5 less than they are listed as in FW's Index Xenos. Shadow Spectres are now 28 a piece and the Exarch 32 (with rifle). Not bad at all.
Your values for prism blaster/prism rifle are reversed. They actually went up by 5 points each, not down :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also RIP Scorpion, Phoenix, Vampire Hunter, and Revenant Titan.
I'm pretty sure thats all from last CA.
My Vampire Hunter has only ever seen the shelf.
Scorpion is still playable and could even pull out into competitive. The changes to Deep strike make it a little less appealing though.
My bad, you're right. CA 2018 puts prism blasters/rifles squarely in the middle in pts value between original index points and the nerfed pts from last CA.
Loving the look of those point decreases. I think that night spinners and warp spiders might see some time on the table with their points decrease. I think warp spiders might become more important to have some -1 to hit modifiers around the army and having S6 weapons to clear screens like grots and guardsmen. The night spinners will help solve problems like smasha guns and the newly priced intercessors
OK, so you want your HWC knight to have a 4+ invuln, there is a 2CP strat in the new wraith host detachment that allows the spiritseer to swap his invuln with a wraith host model (I think mode, maybe unit?).. That's solid.
What does everyone think about a 10 man D-Scythe Wraithguard blob, popping an auto-advance stratagem and then quicken to move again + advance (I think they can only advance normally now). This with their guns gives them a 25-30" threat range turn one and the only real coin toss is the quicken ability but you can get a plus one to that with another strat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or is a 10 man Wraithcannon blob from the webway usually a better play?
