bullyboy wrote: OK, so you want your HWC knight to have a 4+ invuln, there is a 2CP strat in the new wraith host detachment that allows the spiritseer to swap his invuln with a wraith host model (I think mode, maybe unit?).. That's solid.
That does sound interesting, where did you see this? Is there more details available than what's on the community page?
bullyboy wrote: OK, so you want your HWC knight to have a 4+ invuln, there is a 2CP strat in the new wraith host detachment that allows the spiritseer to swap his invuln with a wraith host model (I think mode, maybe unit?).. That's solid.
That does sound interesting, where did you see this? Is there more details available than what's on the community page?
bullyboy wrote: OK, so you want your HWC knight to have a 4+ invuln, there is a 2CP strat in the new wraith host detachment that allows the spiritseer to swap his invuln with a wraith host model (I think mode, maybe unit?).. That's solid.
That does sound interesting, where did you see this? Is there more details available than what's on the community page?
in a Youtube video review of Vigilus book.
Didn't realise they were up, awesome, I'll take a look.
Sadlty the Wraith Host advantages affecting a Wraithknight are rare and almost nonexistent.
Since it's a LoW it will be on his own Detachment and unable to gain the word unless you pay an extra CP for himself alone.
We can get a new psy power wich is just making a wraith unit being on cover for amor saves (may be useful since it can be paired with Protect should the need arise.
And the relic it's just a Witchstaff that ignores demons invul saves.
I mean it's not great but you can pull some funny shenanigans on some Wraith units.
Maybe a supreme command detachment with a couple of spirit seers, a warlock, a unit of Wraithblades and the wraithknight?
I can see it working great with a blob of ten cannon guard though, a four plus invulnerable buffed by protect should be very annoying to clear.
I've gained about 50 points in my 1500 point list. I already had a 6th Ranger in a squad, so I can drop him and get a whole extra squad. I am actually quite pleased, that could be very useful.
I’m going to be swapping out one of my 5 ranger squads for a squad of 8 storm guardians with two flamers. They’re the same points now, and I’m curious if they’ll be better bubble wrap.
Supreme Command is the way it's going to be if you want a wraith host WK. It has one elite slot for a blade or guard, and the wraithseer has just taken a 25pt haircut, so is now very viable imo. D-cannon warlord hunter is 145pts now, and also a viable option for that invuln-swap strat.
But maybe the Hemlock is the most obvious beneficiary of that strat? Pretty dirty.
Or a 10 strong wraithsword / cannon / flamer unit.
I think the big sleeper unit with the wraith host detachement are wraithscythes. They can get a 4++ or even 3++. +1 attack makes them pretty decent in melee. And then they can just fall back and flame again in your turn. Pretty nice. They probably outfight any wraithblades in damage when you combine flame & melee vs just melee of the blades. And they are cheaper than the axes.
I've had plenty of joy with that, but you need to avoid getting encircled. But yeah, even though I always warn people I can fall back and still fire, people's faces when it happens are generally hilarious.
Wraithseer price cost it's unchanged since previous CA, can be fun but still unless they update the Datasheet it's a 11-12 wounds character with T7 (it didn't get the T boost from codex)
Windriders are also a kind of a tactical surprise unit, running a full 9 man squad with twin catapults it's just 29 points more than a guardian bomb, and with the insane mobility we can play with keeping it out of LoS in the rear or just webway drop them depending on enemy and terrain.
I can see a list of three squads of nine windriders 486 pts backed by three squds of rangers or avengers for troops. 27 Biel tan windriders kill 20 odd marines and double that of guard according to mathhammer. 54 T4 wounds on 27 bikes gives reasonable resilience by eldar standards and good board control plus they are very difficult to pin down because of fly. With their speed they should get the first big round of shooting too before getting in rapid return fire range.
I think spears are still in a perfectly fine position. Honestly they'd still be competitive at +5pts, and I feel we got off easy considering their prevalence in the competitive scene and the fact that they're resin.
Saim-Hann scatter laser windriders are going to be the way to go I think. The points cut on the SL has made it very viable and a 36" range and moving without penalty makes them great kiters and objective takers/holders.
A combined punch of Riders for long range horde suppression and Spears for close in anti-monster/tank, backed by Vypers/Grav tanks for a fully zoomy force has potential methinks.
It'll be CP starved, but one can always drop down a few barebones Ranger teams for objective camping and Battallion fill-outs.
Sterling191 wrote: A combined punch of Riders for long range horde suppression and Spears for close in anti-monster/tank, backed by Vypers/Grav tanks for a fully zoomy force has potential methinks.
It'll be CP starved, but one can always drop down a few barebones Ranger teams for objective camping and Battallion fill-outs.
Yeah, for me this opens up potential for an Outrider, but it'll still require an Alaitoc Battalion with Rangers for CPs. Until Battalions are brought back down to 3CPs and Battle Forged grants 5CPs like it SHOULD BE, Battalions will remain mandatory and thus Wildrider hosts will remain casual lists only
With the drop on Twin Cats, there is now an 8ppm difference between Twin-cat WRs and Shuricannon WRs. Given the range difference and WRs not wanting to get too close, I still think Shuricannons are worth it, but at 8ppm less, Twin-cat WRs are at least appealing.
With the drop on Twin Cats, there is now an 8ppm difference between Twin-cat WRs and Shuricannon WRs.
Given the range difference and WRs not wanting to get too close, I still think Shuricannons are worth it, but at 8ppm less, Twin-cat WRs are at least appealing.
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I was thinking more Saim-Han Scatbikes for hordesweeping, with Alaitoc Vypers/Falcons (in the same battalion as the Rangers) for long-range fire support (if I'm mathing it out right, a Starcannon Falcon is down to 125 points, while a twin Shuricannon Vyper is at 60), and Spears for close-in mulching.
I still feel like Shuricannons are better than Scatter lasers, even Saim-Hann Scatterlasers. The slight chance to get AP-3 evens out the extra shot per model and Shuricannons allow the WRs to Advance and still fire, which has more tactical uses (like getting the fudge out of a bad situation) It's nice that it's actually priced accordingly now, but for only 3ppm more, I'd rather not be forced to be Saim-Hann just to break even.
If Alaitoc gets FAQ'd to provide a cover bonus instead, it might be worth it to take Saim-Hann, but even as cover, it's a better trait for WRs that Saim-Hann, sadly. And if I am not taking them as Alaitoc, I may as well take them as Biel-tan with just Twin-cats and use them as suicide units.
The only unit I would even want to be Saim-hann is an Autarch Skyrunner with Laser lance and Reaper launcher, because it's the only unit that gets both bonuses.
Lord Perversor wrote: Sadlty the Wraith Host advantages affecting a Wraithknight are rare and almost nonexistent.
Since it's a LoW it will be on his own Detachment and unable to gain the word unless you pay an extra CP for himself alone.
We can get a new psy power wich is just making a wraith unit being on cover for amor saves (may be useful since it can be paired with Protect should the need arise.
And the relic it's just a Witchstaff that ignores demons invul saves.
I mean it's not great but you can pull some funny shenanigans on some Wraith units.
This is not true.
You can have everything you need out of this detachment by taking a supreme command with one of your HQs being a spiritseer and the LOW being a WK. You can even throw a unit of Wraithguard or Wraithblades in there if you're feeling spicy, it's got an elite slot.
don't bother with the relic, only take the WL trait if you also want the wraithblades and you want to have it on a farseer or something, totally skip the relic unless playing daemons.
Boom, everything you want to have out of the wraith host, for the low cost of 2 extra HQs (and our HQs are both inexpensive and excellent.) Enjoy a double cannon WK with an invuln and perma-cover.
Lord Perversor wrote: Sadlty the Wraith Host advantages affecting a Wraithknight are rare and almost nonexistent.
Since it's a LoW it will be on his own Detachment and unable to gain the word unless you pay an extra CP for himself alone.
We can get a new psy power wich is just making a wraith unit being on cover for amor saves (may be useful since it can be paired with Protect should the need arise.
And the relic it's just a Witchstaff that ignores demons invul saves.
I mean it's not great but you can pull some funny shenanigans on some Wraith units.
This is not true.
You can have everything you need out of this detachment by taking a supreme command with one of your HQs being a spiritseer and the LOW being a WK. You can even throw a unit of Wraithguard or Wraithblades in there if you're feeling spicy, it's got an elite slot.
don't bother with the relic, only take the WL trait if you also want the wraithblades and you want to have it on a farseer or something, totally skip the relic unless playing daemons.
Boom, everything you want to have out of the wraith host, for the low cost of 2 extra HQs (and our HQs are both inexpensive and excellent.) Enjoy a double cannon WK with an invuln and perma-cover.
Yep i totally forgot supreme allow a LoW to be part of it, but i must say it sadden me most of our Wraith units didn't get anything more fancy than just melee boost
On the other hand i have been revising the points and weapons and i'm tempted in try the 3x Vaul's with vibro cannon, as a cheap albeit kinda fixed alternative to reapers for long range firepower since you get for just 120p an almost parallel firepower as a 4-5 man Reaper unit with more durability and with high chance 2nd and 3rd platform can wound far easier than reapers on same target.
Lord Perversor wrote: Sadlty the Wraith Host advantages affecting a Wraithknight are rare and almost nonexistent.
Since it's a LoW it will be on his own Detachment and unable to gain the word unless you pay an extra CP for himself alone.
We can get a new psy power wich is just making a wraith unit being on cover for amor saves (may be useful since it can be paired with Protect should the need arise.
And the relic it's just a Witchstaff that ignores demons invul saves.
I mean it's not great but you can pull some funny shenanigans on some Wraith units.
This is not true.
You can have everything you need out of this detachment by taking a supreme command with one of your HQs being a spiritseer and the LOW being a WK. You can even throw a unit of Wraithguard or Wraithblades in there if you're feeling spicy, it's got an elite slot.
don't bother with the relic, only take the WL trait if you also want the wraithblades and you want to have it on a farseer or something, totally skip the relic unless playing daemons.
Boom, everything you want to have out of the wraith host, for the low cost of 2 extra HQs (and our HQs are both inexpensive and excellent.) Enjoy a double cannon WK with an invuln and perma-cover.
Yep i totally forgot supreme allow a LoW to be part of it, but i must say it sadden me most of our Wraith units didn't get anything more fancy than just melee boost
On the other hand i have been revising the points and weapons and i'm tempted in try the 3x Vaul's with vibro cannon, as a cheap albeit kinda fixed alternative to reapers for long range firepower since you get for just 120p an almost parallel firepower as a 4-5 man Reaper unit with more durability and with high chance 2nd and 3rd platform can wound far easier than reapers on same target.
Well, unless you want them to be the focus of the detachment, in which case they can have 4++/permacover. That's pretty nice for any wraith unit. WWP a unit of wraithguard onto the battlefield and give them 2+/4++, watch your opponent try to kill them.
I think the play would be a supreme detachment with 2x Spiritseers, a Farseer, and a 10 man wraith unit. Fully amped up, you could get a unit to 2+/3++/5+++ (plus cover potential). That is a really tough unit to take down. Now the question is whether you'd take Blades or Guard?
Question for the group: If you were set on taking 3 WKs in an army, which combination would you take? So far, the points decreases open up the potential for a decent Battalion + Super Heavy detachment. That's 11CP, which is 1 more than my typical list.
I'd like to take 3 Skyrunner Charaters (1 Farseer + 2 Autarchs) with minimum Troops. The idea would be for the Farseer to Fortune one of the WKs and the Autarchs to support the other 2.
I'm not interesting in the Sword WK as it is no longer that much cheaper than the Suncannon WK. Nor am I sold on the HWC one since it is not the most expensive and has no invul. I am actually thinking 2 Suncannon WKs with 1 Skathach WK with 2 Deathshroud cannons The Suncannon WKs can start on the table, each with an Autarch escort and the Skathach WK can drop in turn 2 and be Fortuned. And of course, the Farseer would have Doom.
Any thoughts?
Also, what would you think of 2 Inferno lance WKs against a Knight list? 1 Inferno Lance + Shield on each Worth it, or is a single Deathshroufn cannon better (especially with Doom)
Galef wrote: Question for the group: If you were set on taking 3 WKs in an army, which combination would you take?
So far, the points decreases open up the potential for a decent Battalion + Super Heavy detachment. That's 11CP, which is 1 more than my typical list.
I'd like to take 3 Skyrunner Charaters (1 Farseer + 2 Autarchs) with minimum Troops.
The idea would be for the Farseer to Fortune one of the WKs and the Autarchs to support the other 2.
I'm not interesting in the Sword WK as it is no longer that much cheaper than the Suncannon WK. Nor am I sold on the HWC one since it is not the most expensive and has no invul.
I am actually thinking 2 Suncannon WKs with 1 Skathach WK with 2 Deathshroud cannons
The Suncannon WKs can start on the table, each with an Autarch escort and the Skathach WK can drop in turn 2 and be Fortuned.
And of course, the Farseer would have Doom.
Any thoughts?
Also, what would you think of 2 Inferno lance WKs against a Knight list? 1 Inferno Lance + Shield on each Worth it, or is a single Deathshroufn cannon better (especially with Doom)
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I'd want to run at least one in a Spirit Host Detachment with a Spiritseer, but if you have to stick to a 3 detachment limit, that wouldn't work for you as you want three and you'd only be able to get 5CP by running two Supreme Commands with a Aux Superheavy. Are you constrained by list building restrictions?
Galef wrote: Question for the group: If you were set on taking 3 WKs in an army, which combination would you take? So far, the points decreases open up the potential for a decent Battalion + Super Heavy detachment. That's 11CP, which is 1 more than my typical list.
I'd like to take 3 Skyrunner Charaters (1 Farseer + 2 Autarchs) with minimum Troops. The idea would be for the Farseer to Fortune one of the WKs and the Autarchs to support the other 2.
I'm not interesting in the Sword WK as it is no longer that much cheaper than the Suncannon WK. Nor am I sold on the HWC one since it is not the most expensive and has no invul. I am actually thinking 2 Suncannon WKs with 1 Skathach WK with 2 Deathshroud cannons The Suncannon WKs can start on the table, each with an Autarch escort and the Skathach WK can drop in turn 2 and be Fortuned. And of course, the Farseer would have Doom.
Any thoughts?
Also, what would you think of 2 Inferno lance WKs against a Knight list? 1 Inferno Lance + Shield on each Worth it, or is a single Deathshroufn cannon better (especially with Doom)
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I'd want to run at least one in a Spirit Host Detachment with a Spiritseer, but if you have to stick to a 3 detachment limit, that wouldn't work for you as you want three and you'd only be able to get 5CP by running two Supreme Commands with a Aux Superheavy. Are you constrained by list building restrictions?
Yes, I'd prefer only 3 detachments and no less than 10CPs The Skathach WKs being ~500pts seem fairly decent, but I don't think I'd do more than 1. Mostly because that paints a pretty big target on the 1 WK that would start on the table. I think 2 on the table and 1 Skathach is the sweet spot
Ideally, this list would start with 2 WKs and the rest Characters, so the opponent has no other targets to fire on. It would also be Alaitoc with Rangers dropping near objectives later. Even tempted to let my opponent go first if possible to use Prepared Positions. 2 WKs with -1 to be hit and +1 cover and 5++ might be hard to chew through. Then the third on drops in to delete a unit or two.
Shoulder guns are also a must, and I am thinking Scatter lasers on all of them for some cheap dakka. Maybe Shuricannons on the SWK to mess with Doom. Or should I go all out with Starcannons?
If it were me I'd go for three iyanden sword and board. Throw in three wraithlords, give everyone two shuriken cannons. Advance everything up to try for the turn two charges. Psytronome as much as possible. Maybe not the strongest but watching your opponent trying to take down that much T8 wraithbone should be entertaining.
I don't see any point in the Sword/Board WK since it's only 30pts less than the Suncannon WK. Both get 5++ and Titanic feet (which is where the real melee is).
It might be worth swapping them against an IK list, but otherwise, I just don't see why you would drop that much needed dakka.
I wish you could take 1 HWC + Shield. I'd take 2 of those all day.
grouchoben wrote: People's opinions on the Shining Spears +3pts? Seems pretty fair to me, and won't stop me from taking my newly-converted spears, personally.
IMO they still are cheaper than they should be, only a 3pt increase is 100% ok with me
I would really use a spirit seer with a wing in place of one of the autarchs. I think autarchs are pretty far from amazing, the spirit seer can give your skat wraith knight his 4++ (which can then go to a 3+++) and is a decent candidate to hold the rock. Might even be able to squeeze in a min sized unit of wraithguard to DS in.
grouchoben wrote: People's opinions on the Shining Spears +3pts? Seems pretty fair to me, and won't stop me from taking my newly-converted spears, personally.
IMO they still are cheaper than they should be, only a 3pt increase is 100% ok with me
Yeah, this is the only unit I use that went up, but so many other units went down for me, that I was able to readjust my lists to add more of the stuff I want
drakerocket wrote: I would really use a spirit seer with a wing in place of one of the autarchs. I think autarchs are pretty far from amazing, the spirit seer can give your skat wraith knight his 4++ (which can then go to a 3+++) and is a decent candidate to hold the rock. Might even be able to squeeze in a min sized unit of wraithguard to DS in.
Protect only works on Infantry or Bikes, with the WK is neither. So I'm not sure how you are using a Spiritseer to buff a WK's ++ save. Plus, Autarchs with Laser Lance and Reaper Launchers are good on their own, whereas a Spiritseer does jack-all if it fails a Psychic test. I've won games by properly using my Autarchs to plink wound off units before charging them in an nearly wiping the rest.
grouchoben wrote: People's opinions on the Shining Spears +3pts? Seems pretty fair to me, and won't stop me from taking my newly-converted spears, personally.
IMO they still are cheaper than they should be, only a 3pt increase is 100% ok with me
Yeah, this is the only unit I use that went up, but so many other units went down for me, that I was able to readjust my lists to add more of the stuff I want
drakerocket wrote: I would really use a spirit seer with a wing in place of one of the autarchs. I think autarchs are pretty far from amazing, the spirit seer can give your skat wraith knight his 4++ (which can then go to a 3+++) and is a decent candidate to hold the rock. Might even be able to squeeze in a min sized unit of wraithguard to DS in.
Protect only works on Infantry or Bikes, with the WK is neither. So I'm not sure how you are using a Spiritseer to buff a WK's ++ save.
Plus, Autarchs with Laser Lance and Reaper Launchers are good on their own, whereas a Spiritseer does jack-all if it fails a Psychic test. I've won games by properly using my Autarchs to plink wound off units before charging them in an nearly wiping the rest.
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There is a stratagem (relic ? something) in the vigilus specialist detachment to pass your spiritseer's invul to one wraith unit I think. So you could use the HWC load out and use your spiritseer to provide an invul save to the WK (dunno how you would get to 3++ though).
Holy crap, that's actually a possibility – cast Protect on the Spiritseer, and trigger the strat. The WK inherits a 3++. Depends on the wording, but if it works, that's serious biz.
grouchoben wrote: Holy crap, that's actually a possibility – cast Protect on the Spiritseer, and trigger the strat. The WK inherits a 3++. Depends on the wording, but if it works, that's serious biz.
If i'm not mistaken that stratagem is wording as the Wraithknight using the spiritseer rune armor save ( wich is a fixed 4++) while the psy power boost the unit save wich only applies to the model not the armor per se.
grouchoben wrote: Holy crap, that's actually a possibility – cast Protect on the Spiritseer, and trigger the strat. The WK inherits a 3++. Depends on the wording, but if it works, that's serious biz.
It can't inherit a 3++ because the spiritseer never had a 3++, it had a 4++ with a +1 to whatever it rolls on the dice.
Same goes for cover saves, cameloline cloaks, and the new army trait for alaitoc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: so Iyanden is still about the best for mech lists.
Biel-tan is still best for windrider lists with shurikens
Ulthwe is the best for ??? Wraith units or black guardians?
Alaitoc is good for Reapers? now with a modified 2+ save...what about Wraithlords, Knights, or any other base 3+ save units. So Warp Spiders are -1 to hit and 2+ modified saves....is that right?
And Saim Han is good for vypers and scat bikes with charging assault units from Wave Serpents.
Alaitoc did not change, it's still -1 to hit and still probably the best overall (unless something else was announced).
I know they've been brought up briefly, but with the points drops shadow-weavers and night spinners seem a lot more appealing. Are they finally worth it? Indirect fire is strong, especially with ITC terrain rules.
3 support platforms is just about one night spinner. That's 3d6 s6 d1 vs 2d6 s7 d2 - both with the rend. I tend to favor the spinner for the d2 but I wonder if the platforms don't outperform vs 1 wound infantry. What are your thoughts?
What do people think about the nerf to Wave Serpents?
Specifically, the old "go-to" Wave Serpent build of 3 Shuriken Cannons got bumped up in price by 10% from 134 to 147 (13pts)
Do you think the new price is worth running triple cannons? Or will the "budget version" of the shuriken serpent with the twin catapults at 139pts be the better option? (Only 5 more than before.)
Kouzuki wrote: What do people think about the nerf to Wave Serpents?
Specifically, the old "go-to" Wave Serpent build of 3 Shuriken Cannons got bumped up in price by 10% from 134 to 147 (13pts)
Do you think the new price is worth running triple cannons? Or will the "budget version" of the shuriken serpent with the twin catapults at 139pts be the better option? (Only 5 more than before.)
I think it's still worth it. With the various reductions in the other locations, I don't think in the end the price hike on them will be noticed.
Though in my lists I only run three of them, so the cost difference it easily outweighed elsewhere. I suppose if you were running more of them, it might be more difficult to compensate for.
I think it's still worth it. With the various reductions in the other locations, I don't think in the end the price hike on them will be noticed.
Though in my lists I only run three of them, so the cost difference it easily outweighed elsewhere. I suppose if you were running more of them, it might be more difficult to compensate for.
Unfortunately all the units in my list didn't get any major points reductions forcing me to either cut a wave serpent, or change it out for something else.
Do you think he triple cannon serpent is still the way to go at 147 points now?
Lithanial wrote: Better question I think is with the Falcon being a fair bit cheaper than a Serpent now with more guns, are Falcons now worth it again?
Falcons might be interesting to look at, but, you always have to remember that the Serpent gets its shield whereas the Falcon doesn’t have the same level of protection.
I did make a Windrider + Hornet list pages and pages ago that was interesting at the time, but is now substantially cheaper. I also agree that I think the Shuriken cannons are still better than the Scatter Lasers on Windriders. Sure the extra shot is nice, but, you have to 100% go Saim-Hann (which isn’t bad now that Vypers are looking interesting) but, the -3 AP on 6’s, especially when paired with Doom on things like Knights and Tanks, is by far more important than the additional shot.
The serpent is still a better transport, the falcon is still a better tank. I'd run a serpent with the twin catapult and use the spare pts for vectored engines rather than a third cannon.
Falcons look good now, with a bright lance and shuriken cannon for 140 pts it outperforms a fire prism against tank types unless the prisms use linked fire. Handy if you need to use CP for other tricks.
Colgado wrote: Alaitoc did not change, it's still -1 to hit and still probably the best overall (unless something else was announced).
I know they've been brought up briefly, but with the points drops shadow-weavers and night spinners seem a lot more appealing. Are they finally worth it? Indirect fire is strong, especially with ITC terrain rules.
3 support platforms is just about one night spinner. That's 3d6 s6 d1 vs 2d6 s7 d2 - both with the rend. I tend to favor the spinner for the d2 but I wonder if the platforms don't outperform vs 1 wound infantry. What are your thoughts?
At 112 points base Spinners are absolutely beastly. 125 for their direct combat configuration (Shuricannon + CTM so they can scoot and shoot directly).
Vaul weapon plattforms are now very good backfield objektive holders. Cheap, pretty durable, long range without needing los and not threatening enough to be a prime target.
The Night Spinner has a slightly different role, even thought their weapons Arme very similar.
Should we brigade now? Or rather double battalion with cheap troops like DA and rangers? I find myself starved of CP regularly by turn 2/3 running battalion+spearhead and Ulthwe Autarch as warlord, that beimg at 1500 - 1750 pts. And that won't get better with the wraithhost i'm plann7ng to build...
I am looking at double battalion as a serious option at 1500. Anything above that and it is probably a no-brainer.
3 squads of Rangers, and the newly cheaper Storm Guardians with the newly cheaper Fusion Guns will only go to 180 + 228. That is taking it just above 400. Along with a Farseer, Warlock & Spiritseer that I would want anyway, I could take an extra Spiritseer for buffing and runes purposes and still have points to spend on things to take advantage of the buffs.
Well you can take twin linked scatter lasers on the wave serpent now to keep costs down. Not quite as good....but still a useful piece.
I like the Night Spinner as it can move and escape. It cannot hide as well....but the degrading stats vs removing models as the vaul unit takes hits is a wash more or less.
I am in the process prior to the CA 2019 of painting a 2 WS + 2 Falcon +1 night spinner list. The Wave Serpents will have the dangerous cargo but will be outfitted with the cheaper weapons. The falcons will have things like Banshees so if shot down they could still make a next turn charge. Night Spinner moving up from behind the convoy.
Now my opponent will have to choose if he wants to take out the Wraith Guard/Fire Dragon transport or go after the heavier guns on the falcons with less cargo threat.
I should have ample points for crimson hunters, vypers and some scat bikes plus a couple characters on bikes to keep up. Between Cloudstrike and Phantasm I hope to have very little drops for the enemy to prepare for.
Does Prepared Position work on Vehilcles like the Falcon and Wave Serpent? That stratagem is starting to look more favorable.
Sterling191 wrote: It's all gonna come down to how many Heavy Support slots you want. Since CWE can't vehicle squad their heavy armor it's a damn crowded role.
I never find I'm running out of slots, if you need more you can just add a warlock/ spiritseer and create a spearhead detachment for +1 cp and 6 more heavy slots.
If you're looking to minimize drops, you can get two squads that fit in Falcons into each Wave Serpent. And Twin BL Serpents aren't as much worse than Falcons as they should be. That said, the Falcon may have a place, now.
As for Vaul's Wrath, I'd imagine you wouldn't want to mix profiles if not doing so is cheap. So if you're already bringing lots of Grav Tanks, a Night Spinner might be a better option than a Vaul's Wrath. But if you're already going to have a bunch of lighter targets, Vaul's Wrath might make more sense.
BL Serpents are starting at 162 now, and will go into the 170s easily if you want to make them mobile. That's Prism/CHE territory.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, as I'm sitting here doing the math, the Starcannon CHE drops in at 161 points now, while the baseline Prism is at 162.
I'm really looking forward to looking at the new points this weekend and tweaking some lists. I know I can pretty much see them now, but I prefer in hand to better absorb.
So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I... ...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?
Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2
Galef wrote: So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I...
...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?
Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2
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To be fair, the Supreme Command of 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer Skyrunner, 5 Wraithblades/Guard, 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Wraithknight, in addition to (imo) Eldrad + 1 Warlock Skyrunner and 3 troops is a really nice base to start with, and will give you around 600 points to play with. Not a great deal, but, certainly enough to start adding in some other units of potential.
Galef wrote: So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I... ...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?
Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2
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To be fair, the Supreme Command of 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer Skyrunner, 5 Wraithblades/Guard, 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Wraithknight, in addition to (imo) Eldrad + 1 Warlock Skyrunner and 3 troops is a really nice base to start with, and will give you around 600 points to play with. Not a great deal, but, certainly enough to start adding in some other units of potential.
I guess my issue is that I rarely have more than 10CPs to spend, and blow through them by turn 3 on stuff like Linked Fire, Fire and Fade, Lightning reflexes, etc. All strats I have found to be mandatory, not to mention the Command point reroll for the odd roll of 1 or 2 on something that only needed a 3+
In order to do this combo, it would require me to: A) intentionally take detachments that yield slightly less CPs than my typical lists (although still 9 as you described instead of the 10 I usually get) B) use those fewer CPs before the game starts for the Wraithhost Keyword (now down to only 8CPs) and each turn for the Stratagem (7,6,5)
So order to get a WK a 4++, I look at it as a 5+CP investment. Is 5 or more CPs worth it? Not to me, and not when other WKs can get a 5++
Yeah, it's actually not as bad as you're making it sound. You are already getting a heavy discount for the WK, and now you're making it more survivable. Tack on Fortune and it's going to be hard to put down.
Nothing stopping you adding a cheap battalion to give the CPs you need.
bullyboy wrote: Yeah, it's actually not as bad as you're making it sound. You are already getting a heavy discount for the WK, and now you're making it more survivable. Tack on Fortune and it's going to be hard to put down.
Nothing stopping you adding a cheap battalion to give the CPs you need.
I'm not saying it's bad, it's just too high a cost for my playstyle. 3 HQ is about my max, rarely 4. In order to do this combo AND have a decent amount of CPs, I'd need to take 5 HQs and spend even more CPs. Just seems like a drain on already dwindling resources.
Now, a Battalion + Super Heavy detachment netting 11CPs total is appealing, even if it requires 3 WKs
Galef wrote: So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I...
...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?
Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2
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To be fair, the Supreme Command of 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer Skyrunner, 5 Wraithblades/Guard, 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Wraithknight, in addition to (imo) Eldrad + 1 Warlock Skyrunner and 3 troops is a really nice base to start with, and will give you around 600 points to play with. Not a great deal, but, certainly enough to start adding in some other units of potential.
I guess my issue is that I rarely have more than 10CPs to spend, and blow through them by turn 3 on stuff like Linked Fire, Fire and Fade, Lightning reflexes, etc. All strats I have found to be mandatory, not to mention the Command point reroll for the odd roll of 1 or 2 on something that only needed a 3+
In order to do this combo, it would require me to:
A) intentionally take detachments that yield slightly less CPs than my typical lists (although still 9 as you described instead of the 10 I usually get)
B) use those fewer CPs before the game starts for the Wraithhost Keyword (now down to only 8CPs) and each turn for the Stratagem (7,6,5)
So order to get a WK a 4++, I look at it as a 5+CP investment. Is 5 or more CPs worth it? Not to me, and not when other WKs can get a 5++
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To be fair, if you are taking WKx3 you aren't spending any CP on linked fire as you can't afford fire prisms. Now something I just thought of for you that would allow you to take 2x HWC and still get a 5++ is the Skyshield Landing Pad fortification. It will cost you 110 points, but you would have enough room for at least two WK and some other support. Then you can do a Battalion/Supreme Cmd/Fortification Network in a 2k list. The points will be tight, but its doable.
mokoshkana wrote: To be fair, if you are taking WKx3 you aren't spending any CP on linked fire as you can't afford fire prisms.
True, but I can easily see the Command reroll being needed more for fewer units that have more important rolls (specifically 2d6 shot rolls)
mokoshkana wrote: Now something I just thought of for you that would allow you to take 2x HWC and still get a 5++ is the Skyshield Landing Pad fortification. It will cost you 110 points, but you would have enough room for at least two WK and some other support. Then you can do a Battalion/Supreme Cmd/Fortification Network in a 2k list. The points will be tight, but its doable.
And I did this very thing in 7E. I even have an Eldar Landing pad that I'd love to use again:
bullyboy wrote: Yeah, it's actually not as bad as you're making it sound. You are already getting a heavy discount for the WK, and now you're making it more survivable. Tack on Fortune and it's going to be hard to put down.
Nothing stopping you adding a cheap battalion to give the CPs you need.
I'm not saying it's bad, it's just too high a cost for my playstyle. 3 HQ is about my max, rarely 4. In order to do this combo AND have a decent amount of CPs, I'd need to take 5 HQs and spend even more CPs. Just seems like a drain on already dwindling resources.
Now, a Battalion + Super Heavy detachment netting 11CPs total is appealing, even if it requires 3 WKs
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Sure, it won't fit everyone's playstyle, but it's nice that it now is a viable option which it wasn't before. I'm sticking with the suncannon knight at 431pts with starcannon shoulders. I won't need it in a specialist detachment.
I'm probably going to give the Spearhead detachment a whirl with 3 sword wraithlords at 95pts each. Probably stack a large wraith axe unit in there too.
bullyboy wrote: Yeah, it's actually not as bad as you're making it sound. You are already getting a heavy discount for the WK, and now you're making it more survivable. Tack on Fortune and it's going to be hard to put down.
Nothing stopping you adding a cheap battalion to give the CPs you need.
I'm not saying it's bad, it's just too high a cost for my playstyle. 3 HQ is about my max, rarely 4. In order to do this combo AND have a decent amount of CPs, I'd need to take 5 HQs and spend even more CPs. Just seems like a drain on already dwindling resources.
Now, a Battalion + Super Heavy detachment netting 11CPs total is appealing, even if it requires 3 WKs
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Sure, it won't fit everyone's playstyle, but it's nice that it now is a viable option which it wasn't before. I'm sticking with the suncannon knight at 431pts with starcannon shoulders. I won't need it in a specialist detachment.
I'm probably going to give the Spearhead detachment a whirl with 3 sword wraithlords at 95pts each. Probably stack a large wraith axe unit in there too.
Yeah, if you can get Protect and Fortune on the Wraithblades, they are going to be pretty impervious to damage. You could even throw in a bone singer for an extra smite and the ability to heal those wraith back up as needed.
Galef wrote: So let me get this straight, I can have a 4++ HWC WK if I...
...take 5 HQs (3 for the Command detachment for the WK to be in, 2 for the mandatory Battalion I need for CPs), spend 1 CP to give it the keyword and another CP PER TURN to transfer the Spiritseer's Invul to the WK?
Yeah, no. I think I'll pass on that. It'd be far better to just take a Skathach WK with Inferno Lance and Shield if I really want an anti-Knight shooting WK with an Invul. It may be about 100pts more, but I don't need to bleed CPs to make it work. Added bonus that it can either leave the table if needed and/or drop in on turn 2
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To be fair, the Supreme Command of 2 Spiritseers, 1 Farseer Skyrunner, 5 Wraithblades/Guard, 1 Wave Serpent and 1 Wraithknight, in addition to (imo) Eldrad + 1 Warlock Skyrunner and 3 troops is a really nice base to start with, and will give you around 600 points to play with. Not a great deal, but, certainly enough to start adding in some other units of potential.
I guess my issue is that I rarely have more than 10CPs to spend, and blow through them by turn 3 on stuff like Linked Fire, Fire and Fade, Lightning reflexes, etc. All strats I have found to be mandatory, not to mention the Command point reroll for the odd roll of 1 or 2 on something that only needed a 3+
In order to do this combo, it would require me to:
A) intentionally take detachments that yield slightly less CPs than my typical lists (although still 9 as you described instead of the 10 I usually get)
B) use those fewer CPs before the game starts for the Wraithhost Keyword (now down to only 8CPs) and each turn for the Stratagem (7,6,5)
So order to get a WK a 4++, I look at it as a 5+CP investment. Is 5 or more CPs worth it? Not to me, and not when other WKs can get a 5++
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Well, the CP outlay for the WK would be 3CP, then an additional 2 per turn after the first use of the strat. I'd also argue with the 600 points you could easily pick up a 3rd detachment for another 1CP or, if you feel like the WK and Guard/Blades can carry, another battalion to help you play the mission.
I do agree though, that, the chances you'll take a HWC WK over one of the other types is pretty slim, but, the opportunity is there, and going from a 5++ to a 4++ has saved thousands of Knights since their codex was released. Sure, it costs an extra cp, but, also works in combat.
Any more thoughts on either the Skyshield LP or Voidshield Generator? Now that WKs are a bit more playable, either of these Forts might make them that much better. Or even adding a Fort to any Eldar army.
VSG seems kinda pricey, but gives a 4++ to a bigger bubble of units. SLP is a bit more affordable, but only provided a 5++, which many units might already have. The bonus for either in a list with a WK is that it's more T8 to try an draw fire away from the WK But I don't think either are worth it for just 1 WK. 2 maybe, and only the HWC WKs.
Galef wrote: Any more thoughts on either the Skyshield LP or Voidshield Generator?
Now that WKs are a bit more playable, either of these Forts might make them that much better. Or even adding a Fort to any Eldar army.
VSG seems kinda pricey, but gives a 4++ to a bigger bubble of units. SLP is a bit more affordable, but only provided a 5++, which many units might already have.
The bonus for either in a list with a WK is that it's more T8 to try an draw fire away from the WK
But I don't think either are worth it for just 1 WK. 2 maybe, and only the HWC WKs.
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I'm not sure where you are seeing the VSG gives a 4++ as BS tells me its only a 5++. Now the way I read the VSG, it would benefit from its own aura, so even though it has 2 less wounds than the Landing Pad, it would be more survivable with its better save. I think the landing pad is better at an 80pt discount. Don't forget a 2x Deathshroud Cannon SWK can benefit from the 5++ if you want to start it on the board or drop it into your zone on Turn 2.
mokoshkana wrote: I'm not sure where you are seeing the VSG gives a 4++ as BS tells me its only a 5++.
I'm looking at a leaked datasheet from when the Index dropped, but the VSG gives 4++ between 10-18 wounds. Once it drops to 9, it only grants a 5++. 4 or less only a 6++ So unless an FAQ changed that, I think that's still the way it works.
In a way, that kinda works in it's favor (for WKs) as it encourages opponents to try a shoot at it (instead of the WKs) to drop the save. But the SLP gives a 5++ until it's dead, so that's a plus for it too.
I actually have Eldar versions of both...and 3 WKs. So I'm theory hammering several combos to see what works (on paper/in my head at least) It's tough, as I wouldn't want WKs sitting back all game since much of their cost is in those Titanic feet. If I just want to sit back, I'd just use Prisms (like my normal list does)
For the VSG, perhaps I can deploy it at the edge of my DZ and on turn 1 move the WKS to the edge of it's Aura (so that enemy units cannot move within the aura) By turn 3 if I haven't neutralized all threat to the WKs, the VSG won't matter as I've probably lost already. But if I have neutralize most of the threats, the WK can move forward and charge remaining units.
any honorable mentions for 3rd party eldar(ish) chainswords, have a veritable bucket of unassembled ancient metal body plastic arms guardians but hardly any chainswords
anyone have an easy recipe for elder Bastions? I think they are T9 and 20 wounds and a beast to kill.....throw 10 dark reapers inside with about 8 storm guardians when it goes boom to soak up damage and to screen the Aspect warriors.
For 160 points and some quad guns.....I think it would be a good go.
Would a home made one of foam board or resin be permitted in most tournaments???
admironheart wrote: anyone have an easy recipe for elder Bastions? I think they are T9 and 20 wounds and a beast to kill.....throw 10 dark reapers inside with about 8 storm guardians when it goes boom to soak up damage and to screen the Aspect warriors.
For 160 points and some quad guns.....I think it would be a good go.
Would a home made one of foam board or resin be permitted in most tournaments???
I have a DE one. I have used for fun, nothing for comp games, as its easier to kill than you would think, especially vs re-roll meta and Smash Captains (they auto hit you in melee). It has been destroyed by turn 2 every game so far, some games turn 1.
It is slightly skinnier than a normal Bastion (1" skinnier actually) but i did that kinda on purpose as its DE and DE are skinny Elves.
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Automatically Appended Next Post: PS here is another pic along with Void Shield Generator
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Yes they are painted poorly b.c i didnt care they are for friendly games .
Turnip Jedi wrote: any honorable mentions for 3rd party eldar(ish) chainswords, have a veritable bucket of unassembled ancient metal body plastic arms guardians but hardly any chainswords
I tought about making my own silicon nolds and use the Striking scorps as base ( the arm looks like guardian armor anyway) but i need to find some decent shuriken pistol for left arms ( unless i kitbash some from harlies and guardians arms.)
Turnip Jedi wrote: any honorable mentions for 3rd party eldar(ish) chainswords, have a veritable bucket of unassembled ancient metal body plastic arms guardians but hardly any chainswords
I tought about making my own silicon nolds and use the Striking scorps as base ( the arm looks like guardian armor anyway) but i need to find some decent shuriken pistol for left arms ( unless i kitbash some from harlies and guardians arms.)
yep pondering giving blue stuff and milliput a go, just thinking the teeth might be a bit shaky
Still think S-Cannons over Scatters, especially with the Doom/Jinx combo
My issue is now that 2 Scatters are only 1pt more than 1 Starcannon, you either get 8 Str6 AP0 shots, or 2 Str6 AP-3 D:d3 shots
With the Suncannon and 4 total HWCs, I feel more lacking in the # of shots department than the power of shots.
But normally, I'd agree
Knights don't care much for tarpits, they move over infantry and still shoot after falling back from CC. Unless you missposition so hard you're swamped by the entire enemy army. But even then you could just stomp away happily. A list with three knights might also happily sacrifice one of those to tarpits for ultimate freedom of movement with the rest.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Knights don't care much for tarpits, they move over infantry and still shoot after falling back from CC. Unless you missposition so hard you're swamped by the entire enemy army. But even then you could just stomp away happily. A list with three knights might also happily sacrifice one of those to tarpits for ultimate freedom of movement with the rest.
They care about tarpitting by being in front but not in combat thus denying more valuable targets being charged though. That's something. Though there's 2 issues for that here.
a) the knights are often characters so you need to be 3.1" away, not 1.1" or you'll get charged and stomped on your turn.
b) eldars don't have that much models so especially keeping problem a in mind that is albeit tricky sometimes. But surrounding knight with 20 guardians to save more valuable target from being stomped/objective being taken COULD be worth it sometimes.
So what do you guys think of the warp hunter now it's down to roughly the same as a fire prism?
D6 auto hits at s10 ap-4 d6d at 12" looks like the money shot for me. Granted it doesn't get a strategm or shoot twice like the prism but packs a nasty punch.
I'm thinking of taking 2 as counter attackers, seem to be facing a lot of storm fangs/ravens getting in my face turn 1 atm and the auto hits helps negate any hit modifiers they are stacking.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Knights don't care much for tarpits, they move over infantry and still shoot after falling back from CC. Unless you missposition so hard you're swamped by the entire enemy army. But even then you could just stomp away happily. A list with three knights might also happily sacrifice one of those to tarpits for ultimate freedom of movement with the rest.
They care about tarpitting by being in front but not in combat thus denying more valuable targets being charged though. That's something. Though there's 2 issues for that here.
a) the knights are often characters so you need to be 3.1" away, not 1.1" or you'll get charged and stomped on your turn.
b) eldars don't have that much models so especially keeping problem a in mind that is albeit tricky sometimes. But surrounding knight with 20 guardians to save more valuable target from being stomped/objective being taken COULD be worth it sometimes.
They were talking about Galef's 3x WK list, not imperial knights.
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Trashpanda wrote: So what do you guys think of the warp hunter now it's down to roughly the same as a fire prism?
D6 auto hits at s10 ap-4 d6d at 12" looks like the money shot for me. Granted it doesn't get a strategm or shoot twice like the prism but packs a nasty punch.
I'm thinking of taking 2 as counter attackers, seem to be facing a lot of storm fangs/ravens getting in my face turn 1 atm and the auto hits helps negate any hit modifiers they are stacking.
I don't like the idea of a pricey tank that has random shots. I'd rather take something that is more reliable.
I personally think the Warp Hunter is interesting now. 16” move, can ignore LoS at 36” or uses a super flamer 12” flamer. 28” flamer range backed up by the right style of army could do some serious work.
If the tables have big chunks of LoS terrian or that shaky ICT (?) ruins rule is in effect there might be some merit, Prisms probaly still better due to the Stratagem
Yeh they are a bit swingy with the hits and damage but I'd hold a CP for it, and you might only need to get 2 or 3 hits to take a chunk of wounds off something.
The range I'm not too bothered about, 28" threat range isn't too bad and there's always cloudstrike if you need it.
It's the auto hits that has me interested, I keep running into flyers stacking minus' to hit which really takes the edge off my prisms.
Trashpanda wrote: Yeh they are a bit swingy with the hits and damage but I'd hold a CP for it, and you might only need to get 2 or 3 hits to take a chunk of wounds off something.
The range I'm not too bothered about, 28" threat range isn't too bad and there's always cloudstrike if you need it.
It's the auto hits that has me interested, I keep running into flyers stacking minus' to hit which really takes the edge off my prisms.
There are much better counters to your problem. Dark reapers or Hemlocks (still a bit random, but much less so than the warp hunter) can do the job better and they will have more versatility.
Trashpanda wrote: Yeh they are a bit swingy with the hits and damage but I'd hold a CP for it, and you might only need to get 2 or 3 hits to take a chunk of wounds off something.
The range I'm not too bothered about, 28" threat range isn't too bad and there's always cloudstrike if you need it.
It's the auto hits that has me interested, I keep running into flyers stacking minus' to hit which really takes the edge off my prisms.
There are much better counters to your problem. Dark reapers or Hemlocks (still a bit random, but much less so than the warp hunter) can do the job better and they will have more versatility.
It's not as clear cut imo. 177 points will get you 1 Warp Hunter. 170 will get you 5 Reapers and 210 will get you a Hemlock.
Without a shadow out a doubt, the Warp Hunter is more survivable than the 5 Reapers, and is slightly less so than the Hemlock due to it's inbuilt -1 and spirit stones.
The Hunter can pretty much go wherever it wants to and still target whatever it wants to, Reapers and Hemlocks are bound by LoS and, to an extent, movement.
Reapers will always hit on 3's, Hemlocks will always auto-hit, but, Hunters can auto-hit as well. Hemlocks have a slightly better average in terms of number of shots, but, the Hunter has the better "average" in terms of damage done per shot. Hemlock does have the advantage when it comes to T6 models though. 5 Reapers will average more shots and just slightly more hits than the Hunter, however, at a lower strength and AP. Flat 3 damage is nice, but, overall the 3.5 average of the Hunter is arguably better "in the long run".
Hemlock also has the advantage of being a psyker and it's -ld debuff.
The real argument should be whether or not the Hunter is better or worse than a Fire Prism, or whether 2 or 3 Prisms are better than 2 or 3 Hunters using Linked Fire.
So are Wraithlords now worth taking due to their points drop?
I am thinking about expanding my eldar army with the new box set...
I have 90 guardians 15 Dire Avengers 2 vypers 10 dark reapers 2 war walkers 10 wind runners 3 Wave Serpents 1 Falcon 3 Heavy Weapons Platforms 15 Rangers 12 Scorpions 10 Wraith Guard 3 Spirit Seers 5 Warlocks 1 Eldrad 1 Karandras 2 Autarchs
I think getting some wind runners and converting them into some spears and the guardians into storm guardians might be quite helpful and just giving em all flamers.
If they only had 9 wounds and thus did not have a degrading profile, maybe.
It's kinda weird that models with 9 wounds end up being better than models with 10-11 wounds
Kdash wrote: It's not as clear cut imo. 177 points will get you 1 Warp Hunter. 170 will get you 5 Reapers and 210 will get you a Hemlock. Without a shadow out a doubt, the Warp Hunter is more survivable than the 5 Reapers, and is slightly less so than the Hemlock due to it's inbuilt -1 and spirit stones.
It is definitely more survivable in the open, but it will be harder to hide. 5 reapers can use terrain much more effectively due to Fire and Fade.
Kdash wrote: The Hunter can pretty much go wherever it wants to and still target whatever it wants to, Reapers and Hemlocks are bound by LoS and, to an extent, movement.
It can use its second profile which cuts the amount of shots even more to bypass LOS. Hemlocks generally won't suffer from LOS issues as they have the movement to get wherever they need to even on their lowest profile, which by the time they reach it, there should be more space to operate on the board for them to maneuver. Reapers can suffer from LOS issues.
Reapers will always hit on 3's, Hemlocks will always auto-hit, but, Hunters can auto-hit as well. Hemlocks have a slightly better average in terms of number of shots, but, the Hunter has the better "average" in terms of damage done per shot. Hemlock does have the advantage when it comes to T6 models though. 5 Reapers will average more shots and just slightly more hits than the Hunter, however, at a lower strength and AP. Flat 3 damage is nice, but, overall the 3.5 average of the Hunter is arguably better "in the long run".
In order for the Hunter to autohit, it has to put itself dangerously close to the enemy lines. 12 inches is not a safe distance on a T7 3+ chassis.
Kdash wrote: The real argument should be whether or not the Hunter is better or worse than a Fire Prism, or whether 2 or 3 Prisms are better than 2 or 3 Hunters using Linked Fire.
I'm not keen on the eldar tanks other than wave serpents myself and hornets. I'd rather spend those points elsewhere.
Ultimately, there are arguments for and against the options above, but the one thing both reapers and the hemlock have over the hunter is the fact that they exist in the CWE codex. There are still those folks out there who still like to pretend that Forgeworld is not affiliated with GW and refuse to play with those models.
Trashpanda wrote: So what do you guys think of the warp hunter now it's down to roughly the same as a fire prism?
D6 auto hits at s10 ap-4 d6d at 12" looks like the money shot for me. Granted it doesn't get a strategm or shoot twice like the prism but packs a nasty punch.
I'm thinking of taking 2 as counter attackers, seem to be facing a lot of storm fangs/ravens getting in my face turn 1 atm and the auto hits helps negate any hit modifiers they are stacking.
Its playable now, but not competitive at all. Its 180pts for D3 shots... thats not good lol. Look at other 180pts tanks that shoot, they tend to get more shots or re-rolls, something to make sure the hit more often. Armigers are 4D3 shots for example.
The problem is, GW values Str 10 way to much, yeah it can wounds T5 vehicles on a 2+, but if you are paying earily 200pts for average 2 shots a turn, you are most likely only doing 1D6 damage a turn, especially if you moved and they have an invul of some type.
A Ravager is 140pts for 3 Lances, those are S8, and it will out damage 1 Warp Hunter vs a Rhino (4.67 wounds vs 312 wounds) Sure Warp Hunters are more survivable, but when you take 3 of them vs 3 Ravagers, thats 120pts difference, that is enough to get another tank! So now you have 4 tanks vs 3 lol.
The Big thing that Warp Hunter has is Ignore LoS, but thats honestly needed b.c its -1 to shoot if you move.
Trashpanda wrote: So what do you guys think of the warp hunter now it's down to roughly the same as a fire prism?
D6 auto hits at s10 ap-4 d6d at 12" looks like the money shot for me. Granted it doesn't get a strategm or shoot twice like the prism but packs a nasty punch.
I'm thinking of taking 2 as counter attackers, seem to be facing a lot of storm fangs/ravens getting in my face turn 1 atm and the auto hits helps negate any hit modifiers they are stacking.
Its playable now, but not competitive at all. Its 180pts for D3 shots... thats not good lol. Look at other 180pts tanks that shoot, they tend to get more shots or re-rolls, something to make sure the hit more often. Armigers are 4D3 shots for example.
The problem is, GW values Str 10 way to much, yeah it can wounds T5 vehicles on a 2+, but if you are paying earily 200pts for average 2 shots a turn, you are most likely only doing 1D6 damage a turn, especially if you moved and they have an invul of some type.
A Ravager is 140pts for 3 Lances, those are S8, and it will out damage 1 Warp Hunter vs a Rhino (4.67 wounds vs 312 wounds) Sure Warp Hunters are more survivable, but when you take 3 of them vs 3 Ravagers, thats 120pts difference, that is enough to get another tank! So now you have 4 tanks vs 3 lol.
The Big thing that Warp Hunter has is Ignore LoS, but thats honestly needed b.c its -1 to shoot if you move.
Obviously it depends on deployment and stage of the game, but, a Warp Hunter could do 8.1 wounds to the Rhino due to the flamer profile. 8.6 with the shuriken catapult.
Kdash wrote: It's not as clear cut imo. 177 points will get you 1 Warp Hunter. 170 will get you 5 Reapers and 210 will get you a Hemlock.
Without a shadow out a doubt, the Warp Hunter is more survivable than the 5 Reapers, and is slightly less so than the Hemlock due to it's inbuilt -1 and spirit stones.
It is definitely more survivable in the open, but it will be harder to hide. 5 reapers can use terrain much more effectively due to Fire and Fade.
Kdash wrote: The Hunter can pretty much go wherever it wants to and still target whatever it wants to, Reapers and Hemlocks are bound by LoS and, to an extent, movement.
It can use its second profile which cuts the amount of shots even more to bypass LOS. Hemlocks generally won't suffer from LOS issues as they have the movement to get wherever they need to even on their lowest profile, which by the time they reach it, there should be more space to operate on the board for them to maneuver. Reapers can suffer from LOS issues.
Reapers will always hit on 3's, Hemlocks will always auto-hit, but, Hunters can auto-hit as well. Hemlocks have a slightly better average in terms of number of shots, but, the Hunter has the better "average" in terms of damage done per shot. Hemlock does have the advantage when it comes to T6 models though. 5 Reapers will average more shots and just slightly more hits than the Hunter, however, at a lower strength and AP. Flat 3 damage is nice, but, overall the 3.5 average of the Hunter is arguably better "in the long run".
In order for the Hunter to autohit, it has to put itself dangerously close to the enemy lines. 12 inches is not a safe distance on a T7 3+ chassis.
Kdash wrote: The real argument should be whether or not the Hunter is better or worse than a Fire Prism, or whether 2 or 3 Prisms are better than 2 or 3 Hunters using Linked Fire.
I'm not keen on the eldar tanks other than wave serpents myself and hornets. I'd rather spend those points elsewhere.
Ultimately, there are arguments for and against the options above, but the one thing both reapers and the hemlock have over the hunter is the fact that they exist in the CWE codex. There are still those folks out there who still like to pretend that Forgeworld is not affiliated with GW and refuse to play with those models.
I do agree with a lot of what you've said, but i still think the difference is small enough to be worth considering now.
In regards to the range thing, i guess it depends on what is counting you - as a Hemlock will have to be within 16" itself, so, if something can reach the Hunter, it can likely just as easily reach the Hemlock - granted infantry can't generally charge the Hemlock, but, charging -4AP flamers either way isn't a very satisfying situation.
Well I have no idea what to expand my army with currently. I don't know if the new box set will help with my eldar at all. As they seem extremely viable currently with my current build.
I am still not sure on a wraith knight or adding in a new farseer or replacing my rangers with dire avengers. (still don't have any shining spears either)
Trashpanda wrote: So what do you guys think of the warp hunter now it's down to roughly the same as a fire prism?
D6 auto hits at s10 ap-4 d6d at 12" looks like the money shot for me. Granted it doesn't get a strategm or shoot twice like the prism but packs a nasty punch.
I'm thinking of taking 2 as counter attackers, seem to be facing a lot of storm fangs/ravens getting in my face turn 1 atm and the auto hits helps negate any hit modifiers they are stacking.
Its playable now, but not competitive at all. Its 180pts for D3 shots... thats not good lol. Look at other 180pts tanks that shoot, they tend to get more shots or re-rolls, something to make sure the hit more often. Armigers are 4D3 shots for example.
The problem is, GW values Str 10 way to much, yeah it can wounds T5 vehicles on a 2+, but if you are paying earily 200pts for average 2 shots a turn, you are most likely only doing 1D6 damage a turn, especially if you moved and they have an invul of some type.
A Ravager is 140pts for 3 Lances, those are S8, and it will out damage 1 Warp Hunter vs a Rhino (4.67 wounds vs 312 wounds) Sure Warp Hunters are more survivable, but when you take 3 of them vs 3 Ravagers, thats 120pts difference, that is enough to get another tank! So now you have 4 tanks vs 3 lol.
The Big thing that Warp Hunter has is Ignore LoS, but thats honestly needed b.c its -1 to shoot if you move.
Yeh but tbh I'm not thinking of taking it for the long range shots, fire prisms and crimson hunters are better for that.
I'd be taking it for the close range d6 auto hits, either to counter attack something like a storm raven/fang in my deployment zone, or use cloudstrike to get it within striking distance and go on the offensive.
Trashpanda wrote: So what do you guys think of the warp hunter now it's down to roughly the same as a fire prism?
D6 auto hits at s10 ap-4 d6d at 12" looks like the money shot for me. Granted it doesn't get a strategm or shoot twice like the prism but packs a nasty punch.
I'm thinking of taking 2 as counter attackers, seem to be facing a lot of storm fangs/ravens getting in my face turn 1 atm and the auto hits helps negate any hit modifiers they are stacking.
Its playable now, but not competitive at all. Its 180pts for D3 shots... thats not good lol. Look at other 180pts tanks that shoot, they tend to get more shots or re-rolls, something to make sure the hit more often. Armigers are 4D3 shots for example.
The problem is, GW values Str 10 way to much, yeah it can wounds T5 vehicles on a 2+, but if you are paying earily 200pts for average 2 shots a turn, you are most likely only doing 1D6 damage a turn, especially if you moved and they have an invul of some type.
A Ravager is 140pts for 3 Lances, those are S8, and it will out damage 1 Warp Hunter vs a Rhino (4.67 wounds vs 312 wounds) Sure Warp Hunters are more survivable, but when you take 3 of them vs 3 Ravagers, thats 120pts difference, that is enough to get another tank! So now you have 4 tanks vs 3 lol.
The Big thing that Warp Hunter has is Ignore LoS, but thats honestly needed b.c its -1 to shoot if you move.
Yeh but tbh I'm not thinking of taking it for the long range shots, fire prisms and crimson hunters are better for that.
I'd be taking it for the close range d6 auto hits, either to counter attack something like a storm raven/fang in my deployment zone, or use cloudstrike to get it within striking distance and go on the offensive.
I totally think couldstrike is the best use for it. Then use a reroll for the number of shots if you roll a 1 or a 2. It will do pretty good against flyers that way. If they have a flyer they will blow you up before before they get close or just kill you with the flyer - A storm raven for example will 1 shot you with decent rolls. Plus I feel like storm ravens are probably going to be running with the thyphon/ twin las build and stay back to get buffs now.
Just played my first Eldar list with 2018 CA points. 1750 army build. I took out 1 Falcon and 3 Dark Reapers, 5 Banshees and a smattering of other points from my 2000 list.
Faced a Nid force with 2018 CA build. I forgot the -1 to my Crimson Hunter and lost it first turn. At one point he was up 14 to 6 VPs. ( I had passed and let him take first turn after winning) But I came back and pretty much demolished him.
If there was a turn 6 he would not have had much cept Hive Guard and Termagaunts.
I had 5 tanks + 2 Wraithlords + 2 Vypers besides the CH.
It was the first real Mechdar list I fielded and it worked very well. The Night Spinner was very good. It was never targeted as the other tanks were always more of a threat and it took out what ever unit I needed gone.
Made a few mistakes but did my normal move up the flank and roll up the enemy down his battleline. He was a Kronus gunline mostly which did not work too well.
Even though he got a nice point drop in CA. (I have a NID army as well) The Eldar got some great relief in this years CA.
I recommend trying windriders in larger groups, storm guardians helped mopped up a 30 blob of gaunts. Only my precious wraithguard did only 2 wounds of damage from 2 rounds of shooting a Tyrant point blank. They suffered no casualties....just some light bruising.
Ofc the NOVA Lance was great. The Autarch held his own for a round from a CC Tyrant.
I was underwhelmed with the Falcons Pulse Laser. First time Ive used one this edition. Interesting enough it was never targeted. Perhaps I did get its points back from a full 5 turns of shooting.
With all the tanks, The Saim Han Vypers had a field day. The cheapere Vypers and War Walkers are good. The Saim Han craftworld ability works very nicely with them.
admironheart wrote: The Saim Han Vypers had a field day. The cheapere Vypers and War Walkers are good. The Saim Han craftworld ability works very nicely with them.
atm with no magnets it is Bright Lance and Star Cannon. I want to get a 3rd Vyper but now windriders are a consideration.
Since your vehicles are going to suffer move and fire....I try to keep scatter lasers with 4 shots or shuriken cannons on the bigger vehicles and put the heavy more expensive guns on the Saim-Han Vypers.
Remember even though our WS went up in points...if you transition some to twin linked scatter lasers and twin linked shuriken catapults you can get a WS that is only 5 points more than the old 3 shuriken cannon loadout. But we are saving in other units in much bigger ways.
I was running them anyway, makes it easier now. I do advocate WLs with just swords, cheap at 95pts.
I agree, they were OK before and better now. T8 is a decent bonus when facing hordes of S4 attacks like massed Ork mobz.
I like Glaives and dual shuricannons as you can Advance and still fire at decent effect and then charge in and whack things. For just 115 points, it makes quite an effective distraction carnifex. Run it as a second wave in a mech list or as part of a Wraith Host and it will cause your opponent problems by being too tough to kill easily, too fast to ignore and just shooty and hitty enough to be a threat.
Having said that, dual starcannons are now really cheap and surprisingly effective.
The thing with WL and WS. .... Both can die from 1 round of concentrated shooting. Much like 1 carnifex isn't bad...but multiples charging + Screamer Killers to boot become a real pain.
If you take a WL....take several...some with swords....some with guns.....either way you will get your bang out of some of them.
Dageran wrote: Does anyone know if there was ever an update regarding the Wraithseer’s status as a “Wraith Construct”?
It still looks like, RAW, the Wraithseer couldn’t benefit from the “Spirit Host” detachment rules.
Sadly FW units remain largely ignored despite the latest updates and FAQs, the Wraithseer still remains without Wraith Host "Keyword" and still boasting T7.
I'm super happy with Prince Yriel's new points. I absolutely love him in my Iyanden force, wounding on 2s is really nice and now he's cheaper than standard Autarchs. Downside is that his warlord trait is crap, so you have to give up the 6s to regain Command Points so that a spiritseer can be your warlord for the reroll charge trait in the new wraith host detachment.
What do we think of Hornets now? I’m considering a squad of 3 with the mini pulse lasers, crystal targeting matrix and vectored engines. On turns they don’t shoot, 18+2d6 advance, at -2 to shoot; or they move 18” and shoot nearest enemy on 3+ with 18 shots.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: What do we think of Hornets now? I’m considering a squad of 3 with the mini pulse lasers, crystal targeting matrix and vectored engines. On turns they don’t shoot, 18+2d6 advance, at -2 to shoot; or they move 18” and shoot nearest enemy on 3+ with 18 shots.
I reckon it has game!
I'd personally still run them with Shuriken Cannons and Vectored Engines. Advance each turn and hit on 4's, but they will have a base -2 to hit all the time.
So does the Falcon come into the conversation now? Thinking armed with starcannon and shuricatapults. 3 Falcons are 375pts, whereas 3 Prisms are 471pts. With the strat, the prism is still superior by a long way, but it's almost 100pts saving.
Spiritseer, psytronome of Iyanden, Revered by the Dead 65
2 wraithlords with glaives 190
1 wraithlord, brightlance, starcannon 118
6 Axe wraithblades 270
NuhJuhKuh wrote: What do we think of Hornets now? I’m considering a squad of 3 with the mini pulse lasers, crystal targeting matrix and vectored engines. On turns they don’t shoot, 18+2d6 advance, at -2 to shoot; or they move 18” and shoot nearest enemy on 3+ with 18 shots.
I reckon it has game!
I want to love them because they’re probably my favourite model in the Eldar arsenal, but while they’re much better now, they’re probably not great. With pulse lasers and a CTM their closest comparison is dissie ravagers. They’re 10 points cheaper, but have 6 shots to the ravager’s 9, albeit at 1 higher strength and 12” greater range. They trade 2 wounds and a 5++ save for a non-degrading statline, a 3+ base save, and better ability to use stratagems (since you can put 3 in a single unit).
With pulse lasers they may be more useful in the back field. With twin shuricannons and vectored engines for 90 each, they can be very hard to hit but probably won’t do enough to be seen as a major threat.
bullyboy wrote: So does the Falcon come into the conversation now? Thinking armed with starcannon and shuricatapults. 3 Falcons are 375pts, whereas 3 Prisms are 471pts. With the strat, the prism is still superior by a long way, but it's almost 100pts saving.
Spiritseer, psytronome of Iyanden, Revered by the Dead 65
2 wraithlords with glaives 190
1 wraithlord, brightlance, starcannon 118
6 Axe wraithblades 270
Iyanden Spearhead
Prince Yriel 70
3 Fire Prisms 471
1996pts
What would you put in the Falcons if you took them? It seems a waste not to utilize the transport option.....still a potent list.
Hornets with twin hornet lasers look very good to me now. Long range firepower that's great against anything except tanks etc, tough enough chassis for 110 pts each? Effectively three star cannons for the price of two.
Rather than diving all over the points changes in Chapter Approved I've been mulling over the new missions and currently have the following things I'm thinking on.
1, With the change from First Blood to First Strike, I'm wondering if a Webway Portal in your own deployment zone could actually be worth it to shelter the squishy parts of your force for that one turn?
2, Could going second now actually be a more potent choice between being better setup to dash for Linebreaker and being able to react better with reserves?
3, When playing Maelstrom of War, what Tactical Objectives would people now cut from their deck?
Wonder what anyone else's thoughts on the new missions are.
What would you put in the Falcons if you took them? It seems a waste not to utilize the transport option.....still a potent list.
Probably something cheap like MSU Dire Avengers. They can take shelter early and emerge later to take objectives or clear hordes as needed. Between Battle Focus and 18" range, they have a decent threat radius from the Falcon. You can also use them to hide buffing characters potentially although not on their own.
kingheff wrote: Hornets with twin hornet lasers look very good to me now. Long range firepower that's great against anything except tanks etc, tough enough chassis for 110 pts each? Effectively three star cannons for the price of two.
?
You meant 3 star cannons for the price of 4 ? The hornet pulse laser cost 2 times the price of a star cannon.
I think Falcons are battletanks first, and their transport cap is ancellary. If the Falcon moves, it gets -1 to hit, which really hurts it's PulseLaser, probably the other weapon too. And CTM only lets you shoot at the closest - which is unlikely to be what you want to put that PulseLaser into.
As crappy as it is, this usually means I want my Falcon to stay stationary. Not a very Eldar thing to do, but it is what it is.
The biggest issue I have with non-Shuriken Canon Hornets is that you have to make a choice. Advance and get the -1 to hit, or stay still and shoot with the heavy weapons. You could move and shoot with the -1 penalty, but, at the point you might as well advance and take the -1 penalty with the Shuriken instead, whilst gaining the defensive buff.
For 90 points you get 6 Shuriken Cannon shots, hitting on 4’s but on a platform that then has a base -2 to hit (-3 if you’re Alaitoc).
kingheff wrote: Hornets with twin hornet lasers look very good to me now. Long range firepower that's great against anything except tanks etc, tough enough chassis for 110 pts each? Effectively three star cannons for the price of two.
?
You meant 3 star cannons for the price of 4 ? The hornet pulse laser cost 2 times the price of a star cannon.
Sorry, complete brain fart on my part! I blame it on me writing it at 6am and not having a coffee yet...
I still think they're a decent option at that price though.
I assume you also have Wave Serpents on the field with more in your face units.
So you have the spot for 6 models....Other than Dire Avengers what do you put in them?
DA = 3" Embark, 7" move, d6 Assault, + 18 range = 29" - 35" threat.
Honestly DAs are the only reasonable choice. They are cheap and don't make Falcon more of a threat, have decent enough range and can help fill a Brigade.
I assume you also have Wave Serpents on the field with more in your face units.
So you have the spot for 6 models....Other than Dire Avengers what do you put in them?
DA = 3" Embark, 7" move, d6 Assault, + 18 range = 29" - 35" threat.
Dark reapers, I often hide a unit of five inside a falcon to shield them from fire. They both want to be far back.
I've had some success with banshees too. The free 3" disembark can help with a first turn charge, especially if going second.
I am toying with the following list after seeing one that did really well in ETC. Following the recent reduction in Jetbike cost plus the ETC cover rules I think it can do really well. CP shortage is what bothers me. What do you think?
Not sure 6 command points is enough as you stated but the list looks good and very competitive. Why Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned for the Spearhead? To get Eldrad?
Can I ask people about Ulthwe Avatar & Storm Guardians? I'm close to pulling the trigger on the bitz I'd need for a stack of 24 SGs. I know it's easy to overestimate unit efficacy with CWE, as we tend to work on the basis of jinx/doom/other buffs which, in reality, can be hard to chain together, and only work on one or a few units. But 366pts buys you 24 troops with morale immunity, and a good unit to receive those buffs, in a faction that can easily give them 2+ to hit, alongside the standard stuff. And of course the delicious, melt-ing-your-mouth centre of molten Avatar goodness.
The new CA missions all seem to favour boots on ground, and troops in particular, so this is looking more and more like a decent option to me for a central push unit.
What would you all advise to complement this stack of an Avatar + 1 or 2 maxed out SG morale-immune blobs?
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Not sure 6 command points is enough as you stated but the list looks good and very competitive. Why Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned for the Spearhead? To get Eldrad?
Yes cause of Eldrad.
Possible changes would be to have the Reapers in one squad and drop the serpant and Eldrad and get 3x6 rangers and a skyrunner farseer plus a skyrunner warlock.
More CPs that way but the reapers will not be safe inside the serpant if I loose first round.
grouchoben wrote: What would you all advise to complement this stack of an Avatar + 1 or 2 maxed out SG morale-immune blobs?
Isn't that essentially playing Tyranids? Was kind of inevitable people would want to do it with the point drops, but before pulling that trigger as you say I'd actually check to see if you wouldn't be better off doing such mob playstyle with a different faction that doesn't require a swarm of bitz.
Storm Guardians are still garbage even with the points drop, unless you want to use them as cheap objective holders, but even then, why not splurge for DA? For 7 more points, you lose 2 wounds, but pick up a better save (Exarch has a 4++) and much better base weapons. Storm Guardians won't do anything in combat, if they even make it, without significant buffs that could be better used elsewhere.
I'm used to running Tzaangor + cultist blobs in TS armies, so I'm quite comfortable with the idea of having to stack buffs & strats in order to unlock a blob's potential.
4++/6+++ for 1cp is a bargain, for example, and makes them pretty decent defensively.
You lose a shot from the catapult changing to pistol, but range is the same, and their price drops by 2ppm model which is a reallllly big deal on blob units. There are also some very punchy combos that seem viable to me, as Warlocks seem to have a lot of CC buff powers....
For example a 24-guardian unit with a Storm of Blades Autarch, using Supreme Disdain & Black Guardians strats, and benefiting from Enhance, gives you an average of 64 hits, 21 of them at -1ap, with the cost being a cast and 2cp on 2 strats. That knight was jinxed and doomed already, right? Well, your guardians just did 11.7 damage to it in CC. ... That's all very good for a 144pt unit.
They ain't wyches but I want to run pure CWE, and I think they might take a few opponents by surprise.
Well with Ulthwe Black Guardian strat.... Storm Guardians can be devastating. Sure it is a lot of Resources...It is very nice to see a unit of genestealers cut down by storm guardians b4 they get to attack.
20 Storm Guardians with Chainswords. 120 points
Doom on target
Autarch nearby....easy enough
Cast Enhance on Storm Guardians
Charge
That is 40 attacks
Disdain Strategem
Black Guardian Strategem
Hit on 2+. reroll 1's and exploding attack rolls on 4+
39 base hits,,21.5 exploding hits
= 45 saves on T3
= 33 saves on T4/T5
=18 saves on T6 and higher
for a 120 point unit getting a standard 2 CP plus 1 aura + psychic support....which is pretty standard stuff....that is a lot of possible wounds.
Dissie Ravagers are a competitive choice, 2 War Walkers with Star Cannons are pretty similar now.
I see several downsides;
Slower, and if you move you have bs4
one shot less
Random d3 damage
The obvious adavantage is that they are Eldar so you won't need an Archon.
They fill a similar role as Dark Reapers, so is there an upside if you go for War Walkers.?
mokoshkana wrote: Storm Guardians are still garbage even with the points drop, unless you want to use them as cheap objective holders, but even then, why not splurge for DA? For 7 more points, you lose 2 wounds, but pick up a better save (Exarch has a 4++) and much better base weapons. Storm Guardians won't do anything in combat, if they even make it, without significant buffs that could be better used elsewhere.
Because you can't buff-stack DAs into a unit that can one-bang a DP in CC. I love DAs, from my limited experience of them (I'm pretty new to CWE), but they do a very different job.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as to garbage? Cultists are 1 point cheaper. They will still see a lot of play on top tables. I think SGs at 6ppm might turn out to be a sleeper hit, is all.
Nivoglibina wrote: Dissie Ravagers are a competitive choice, 2 War Walkers with Star Cannons are pretty similar now.
I see several downsides;
Slower, and if you move you have bs4
one shot less
Random d3 damage
The obvious adavantage is that they are Eldar so you won't need an Archon.
They fill a similar role as Dark Reapers, so is there an upside if you go for War Walkers.?
Walkers can innately deep strike. They also dont die to a minor breeze.
admironheart wrote: Well with Ulthwe Black Guardian strat.... Storm Guardians can be devastating. Sure it is a lot of Resources...It is very nice to see a unit of genestealers cut down by storm guardians b4 they get to attack.
20 Storm Guardians with Chainswords. 120 points
Doom on target
Autarch nearby....easy enough
Cast Enhance on Storm Guardians
Charge
That is 40 attacks
Disdain Strategem
Black Guardian Strategem
Hit on 2+. reroll 1's and exploding attack rolls on 4+
39 base hits,,21.5 exploding hits
= 45 saves on T3
= 33 saves on T4/T5
=18 saves on T6 and higher
for a 120 point unit getting a standard 2 CP plus 1 aura + psychic support....which is pretty standard stuff....that is a lot of possible wounds.
Yeah that's all well and good in a vacuum, but not quite as likely in practice. Are you marching them across the field? They'll likely get shot off the board or you're going to spend 2CP to keep them alive before they ever get into combat. Deep striking them? You're going to have to burn a CP to make that charge. Enhance is WC 7, so there is another possible command point there. Doom is likely wasted on the target you're trying to stab to death, unless you're shooting it first, which likely makes your charge more difficult if your opponent is thinking tactically. Could they be fun as a gimmick once or twice, sure. But I can think of much better ways to spend my points that don't rely on a bunch of CP and psychic powers to work.
mokoshkana wrote: Storm Guardians are still garbage even with the points drop, unless you want to use them as cheap objective holders, but even then, why not splurge for DA? For 7 more points, you lose 2 wounds, but pick up a better save (Exarch has a 4++) and much better base weapons. Storm Guardians won't do anything in combat, if they even make it, without significant buffs that could be better used elsewhere.
Because you can't buff-stack DAs into a unit that can one-bang a DP in CC. I love DAs, from my limited experience of them (I'm pretty new to CWE), but they do a very different job.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as to garbage? Cultists are 1 point cheaper. They will still see a lot of play on top tables. I think SGs at 6ppm might turn out to be a sleeper hit, is all.
Cultists are great because the other CSM troop (Space Marines) is almost thrice the cost without thrice the benefit.
There is synergy in Storm Guardians, but for me, the cost to make them to viable is too much.
Yeah that's all well and good in a vacuum, but not quite as likely in practice. Are you marching them across the field? They'll likely get shot off the board or you're going to spend 2CP to keep them alive before they ever get into combat. Deep striking them? You're going to have to burn a CP to make that charge. Enhance is WC 7, so there is another possible command point there. Doom is likely wasted on the target you're trying to stab to death, unless you're shooting it first, which likely makes your charge more difficult if your opponent is thinking tactically. Could they be fun as a gimmick once or twice, sure. But I can think of much better ways to spend my points that don't rely on a bunch of CP and psychic powers to work.
There is synergy in Storm Guardians, but for me, the cost to make them to viable is too much.
Depends on your playstyle. He mentioned them in an Avatar blob. I am not convinced a 30 to 40 blob costing over 400 points is worth it other than to soak up fire and to slow the enemy entering an area ot the battlefield is still worth it.
If and when I use SG it is a 114 point screen (19 models) PLEEEEASE shoot at them rather than my other units like dark reapers. What they are is a counter assault unit to save my gunline.
In my new list they are only 8 models and not much of a threat....but they are there to screen my characters. Not much of a screen but one that has worked as I have a whole lot of other threats in the same locale that keeps them under the radar....and I need bodies to keep my farseer and autarch from getting targeted.
"If and when I use SG it is a 114 point screen (19 models) PLEEEEASE shoot at them rather than my other units like dark reapers. What they are is a counter assault unit to save my gunline."
Exactly! If they're shooting at my SG blob they are shooting at a) the cheapest models on my roster and b) a 4++/6+++ unit with zero morale issues. It's a sizeable victory if my opponent targets the SGs instead of the reapers, DAs, Shining Spears, etc.
grouchoben wrote: "If and when I use SG it is a 114 point screen (19 models) PLEEEEASE shoot at them rather than my other units like dark reapers. What they are is a counter assault unit to save my gunline."
Exactly! If they're shooting at my SG blob they are shooting at a) the cheapest models on my roster and b) a 4++/6+++ unit with zero morale issues. It's a sizeable victory if my opponent targets the SGs instead of the reapers, DAs, Shining Spears, etc.
admironheart proposed a much different use for his storm guardians. He is running them barebones as a screen, while you are talking about buffing them to oblivion to make them viable. If you are moving them up the board, then the support has to move with them, which opens up options for your opponent. I'd rather invest that 114 points into something more worthwhile myself. That's just about two units of rangers or two units of DA to hold objects, screen, and provide small arms fire support. Additionally, it could be two Vypers or two units of stock Windriders to provide harassing units. I'm just saying there are better options. If you're going to push them up the field to do some damage, I'd rather spend the points on Wraithblades with shields. With that same psychic support, they can get to 2+/3++/5+++ and at three wounds each, that is vastly more survivable. Once they hit your enemies lines, they can actually do some serious damage as well.
I think I remember seeing somewhere that arriving from cloudstrike with a scorpion, for example, counts as its highest move category for determining the invulnerable save. Can't find anything about it, can anyone point me to a source or did I just imagine that?
Fair enough mokoshkana. Wraithblades are indeed great in cc when buffed, but they aren't troops, have zero guns, need transports, and cost twice as much. Against something like screens, genestealers, blobs, etc., the SGs are going to seriously outperform them too. Also, it's not the same psychic support - my scenario only required one cast from a warlock - yours requires two, one from a farseer, one from a warlock. WGs also hate mortal wound spam, whereas SGs are an ideal soak unit to deal with it.
But at least I'm glad we can agree that SGs are worth talking about in the same conversation as wraithblades at least. I'm proxying a 24-model blob in lots of games this week, 44 guardians in total! Will report back on how they fare.
For those that run Soups, particularly Harlies on bikes with Eldar, what do you do regarding HQs for them?
Skyweavers are great, adding a HQ can be hard though. I want to run a very mobile army, almost everything on bikes. but I'm not sure if a foot HQ will keep up. Looking at a Shadowseer, the Eldar HQs will be Skyrunners.
Adding a Troupe and a Transport will cost ~200pts, 300pts with the HQ, although not a complete tax as they could be effective on their own. I'd prefer not to include them and put the pts somewhere else.
Do people have problems with foot harlies in a mobile force? I'm worried they will be left behind/easy to pick off.
I just add in 1 Shadowseer, she gives you Quickening for that unit basically. I think troupes are a complete waste of space, i have a quin army and i dont even want to play with troupes. Wyches are literally 1/2 the points and are better in every way other than FP spam.
I'm looking for some feedback between two 1,250pt army lists for an upcoming tournament.
They were designed as a Take All Comers list, and both share the same core, however one has more on-board pretense and mobility whereas the other has more firepower.
I am trying to figure out which would be the better pick for an upcoming tournament in the near future, and would very much appreciate your feedback.
If anything, I'd appreciate if you guys took at look and gave me your first impressions of which armylist looks "scarier" to fight against.
Amishprn86 wrote:I just add in 1 Shadowseer, she gives you Quickening for that unit basically. I think troupes are a complete waste of space, i have a quin army and i dont even want to play with troupes. Wyches are literally 1/2 the points and are better in every way other than FP spam.
Shadowseer, 6 Skyweavers, done.
Just running with an out rider detachment? I'm thinking 10 skyweavers, 3, 3 & 4. Fully kitted, with the shadowseer.
Kouzuki wrote:I'm looking for some feedback between two 1,250pt army lists for an upcoming tournament.
.
Second list I think, but.
What's ya plan with the waveserpents?
What ya plan about takling tanks?
Lithanial wrote: Out of curiosity, what do people think is the best loadout for a Seer Council currently? Accepting that it's a big points sink of non-efficiency.
Max out resilience as Alaitoc with Conceal & Protect and just be a pain to shift? Then Jinx, Smite & Charge whatever gets close?
It's far too many resources to make it work IMO. Some have tried and had success, I'm sure, but at the end of the day it is an expensive unit that MUST succeed with all its powers or just it just gets removed. It's too juicy of a target and can indeed be targeted.
Personally, I would have MUCH rather preferred the Warlock and Warlock Conclave to have been a single datasheet. Same with the Skyrunner variants. It SHOULD have been: 1-10 Warlocks with Character and the following rule: Conclave: All Warlocks in this unit are deployed at the same time within 6" of another Warlock from the unit, but each Warlock is a separate unit from that moment forward. If a Warlock is within 3" of one or more Warlocks from its original unit during any Psychic Phase, it may reroll any 1s rolled for casting a Psychic power.
No need for Character and non-Character Warlocks. All Warlocks should be the same, be Character, each can have a different power and they get a same bonus for being close to members of its unit. Done. 40-50ppm tops
Lithanial wrote: Oh I totally get that they are too expensive and as such there are better choices for WAAC competitive players.
My question is that even with that being the case, how would people go about using that unit to good effect?
admironheart wrote: I still use my 2 model Warlock Conclave since the points hike.
First most players don't even think of them as non characters
I hide them in vehicles to start or keep them out of los the best I can
I love having 2 powers to pick from. If one dies it is still a functioning unit.
Ive only had 1 round where anyone targeted them and I took no losses.
Certainly good advice.
I'm not really bothered by their points cost, but rather their lack of Character.
I'd love to be able to use them as Admironheart suggests, but I just can't rely on opponents ignorance to prevent them from getting killed.
That are a super juicy target, especially if you take more than 2. And since their whole purpose is to buff certain units, it makes no sense not to target them when you have the chance (with is anytime they aren't in a transport).
I guess you could use said transport to block LoS on them once they do come out. Or Fire and Fade, but I really don't like the idea of using CPs on a unit that should already be Character and thus not need to Fire and Fade at all.
Not sure if they're still a great unit, but as an Iyanden player, I will have 2 with swords moving up with axe guard around a spiritseer with psytronome and reroll charges. 95pts for the sword wraithknight is great, plus with Iyanden, the degrading statline is not as bad.
I feel the points drop is enough to bring them into contention as worthwhile units. Don't forget that some of the heavy weapons came down in price too. A dual Starcannon WL is now only 111 points.
I generally use them in 2 roles. Firstly with 2 heavy weapons to babysit my firebase and deter anyone from trying to assault my Dark Reapers. The 111 point variant I mentioned above is good as he can contribute plenty of firepower himself with just enough melee potential to deter lightweight attackers.
The second role is 2 Shuricannons and Glaive in a mech list. Advance them and they can nearly keep up with your Grav tanks while still shooting. Your opponent has to decide between shooting his anti-tank weapons at the tanks and their cargo or the Wraithlords. If he ignores the Lords, he risks a pretty punchy 2nd wave hitting him at full strength. With Glaives, WL are wounding Knights on a 3+ and doing D6 damage, enough to pose a respectable threat if they can get the charge.
IMHO the points drop is enough to let WLs function as distraction-Carnifexes. They are cheap enough to spam, durable enough to require dedicated anti-tank firepower to put down and hitty enough to cause decent damage so your opponent will be unwise to ignore them.
Lastly, T8 is a significant deal against the horde meta that seems to be developing. Massed S4 attacks will bother them a lot less than Dreads and other T7 unit.
Has anyone here ever tried running a list based on deep striking a fully buffed 10-man Wraithguard squad? If so what was your experience like?
I'm thinking about making a casual list that's all about the 10-man wraithhost bomb. With Twilight Gloom, Conceal, Protect, Fortune, and Spirit Shield we can get those Alaitoc Wraithguard to 1+/3++/5+++ with -2 to hit on the turn they come in.
If the rest of the list is made of some sort of fast, durable anti-chaff unit like serpent spam or flyer spam, then the T2 invincible wraithguard bomb could potentially be devastating.
I have tried it before but slightly differently, I did it with doom on the gallant my opponent was playing.
I used iyanden for the re-roll all hits strategy, doom and jinx on the gallant and conceal from a warlock skyrunner. The gallant had taken four wounds from my fire prisms but it melted once the wraithguard hit.
I'm tempted to try it again with the new invulnerable strategy but ten wraithguard are not easy to get rid of as long as there's reasonable terrain. You've got to hit them with a lot of firepower because they're like mini tanks. With conceal and lighting fast reflexes giving them -2 to hit it's not easy to bring enough shots to take them down. The fact that they're 30 wounds split into chunks of 3 doesn't help either.
Yeah I'm thinking Spirit Shield/Twilight Gloom really takes their toughness to the next level. They will have 2+ saves against AP1 and 3+ invulns against everything else. Kinda like spears but slower and tougher.
The only concern is to make sure that we clear away enough of the enemy screen T1 to expose some decent targets for the wraithguard.
I just now put together a goofy brigade with the WG bomb and min squads of shadow spectres and tempest reapers. And some vypers too. Might try playing this some time.
[Ulthwe Brigade] [2000 points] [15CP]
Eldrad Ulthran, Doom, Fortune, Executioner
Spiritseer, Faolchu's Wing, Revered by the Dead, Twilight Gloom
Warlock, Protect/Jinx
10x Wraithguard
2 x 3 Shadow Spectres
6 x 5 Rangers
3 x 1 Vypers
3 x 3 Dark Reapers, 3x Tempest Launchers
1x Wave Serpent, Vectored Engines
1x Hemlock, Jinx
I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.
kingheff wrote: I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.
I think Weapon platforms can offer a lot of oportunities now. as you properly point.
The Shadow Weavers can provide a quite decent anti horde Firepower with enough durability to sustain some punishment. We sacrifice the always hit on 3+ for several more units and quite more durable also worth to notice the enemy need to focuse each platform one by one wich make them even more harder to kill than just shooting at a 6-10 man reaper unit wich also helps to draw some Antitank firepower from other threats.
Also i'm a firm believer that Vibro canons can be a powerful threat , for just 40 points we get 1d3 S7 -1 Ap Dmg2, and for each one Firing at the same target we start to get +1 wound and extra -1 Ap so we'll get to wound almost anything at 2+ with a -3 save from the 3rd platform firing at the target, the only downside it's the random shoots but i feel it's worth a shoot.
kingheff wrote: I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.
I can actually agree with that means my support weapons can actually be used again
My Night Spinner was just a beast the first time I took it out...so Shadow Weavers should do well.
If I used Vibro Cannons I would take 4 to 6 of them.
That way you have:
1) you can lose up to 2 and still pull of the trick.
2) you will get 4 that can do the trick rather than just 1
3) you can target 2 different units with the trick if needed.
admironheart wrote: My Night Spinner was just a beast the first time I took it out...so Shadow Weavers should do well.
If I used Vibro Cannons I would take 4 to 6 of them.
That way you have:
1) you can lose up to 2 and still pull of the trick.
2) you will get 4 that can do the trick rather than just 1
3) you can target 2 different units with the trick if needed.
Spinners have always been productive, they just havent been efficient. Post-CA I really dont see a reason why a grav-list woudn't triple up on em
Unless i need a very mobile army i think Shadow Weavers are better.
you are trading the random 2d6Dmg 2 for a 3d6dmg 1 if you are deploying them vs horde inf, you'll rarely need the Dmg 2 from NS (it may come handy in some situations) and if the situations arises you can relocate the Support weapons in your backline with ease and use guardian stratagems to keep them alive or boost they efficiency if using Ulthwe trait.
If only the NS may have the same firing twice boost as the Russ and Fire prism does then it would be a real contender and worthy to field as a more polivalent unit to deal with some vehicles too.
Depends on what needs killing. For hordesweeping, Shadow Weavers take the cake no question. But with bikes and things like Sentinels about to appear more often, that S7, D2 profile in high volume is looking more appealing for cracking light vees that rely on toughness rather than saves.
So with the points drops, is the Saim Hann scatbike back on the menu? 23pts for 4 shots with no negative to hit. Vs most hordes it will be wounding on 2s. I don't think the Vigilus formation offers anything for them, but a simple outrider detachment led by either an autarch or farseer skyrunner to help with horde control and take objectives early.
bullyboy wrote: So with the points drops, is the Saim Hann scatbike back on the menu? 23pts for 4 shots with no negative to hit. Vs most hordes it will be wounding on 2s. I don't think the Vigilus formation offers anything for them, but a simple outrider detachment led by either an autarch or farseer skyrunner to help with horde control and take objectives early.
If you are also running Spears and other melee units, maybe.
But competitively, WRs really, really need to be Alaitoc. They are just to fragile otherwise. And the Shuricannon is STILL the optimal weapon choice.
WRs are one of the few Eldar units that actually gets a lot out of Battle Focus. Combine with the (much needed) Ap-3 on 6s, and I'd argue that Shurcannons are better than Scatter lasers even in a Saim-Hann list.
Personally though, I like the idea of taking 2 Shuricannons and 1 Scatter laser per unit. Gives some slight versatility and shave just a few points off.
kingheff wrote: I think three squads of three shadow weaver support weapons would be a good replacement for the reapers. Twelve extra points get you 9d6 S6 -4 rending shots on 45 wounds T5 platforms rather than 12 T3 wounds with the reapers.
I like those shadow weavers a lot. The minimum unit size of 1 makes for some interesting possibilities. Maybe I could consolidate the reapers into a single 10-man squad, then drop the serpent and bring 4 shadow weavers. The list would play pretty defensively killing chaff with reapers/shadow weavers/vypers before the wraithguard drop T2.
I prefer catapults on windriders performing the deepstrike catapult bomb similarly to guardians. If they survive the reply they're able to fall back and shoot or move to another objective.
For scatter lasers I prefer the look of war walkers, a squad of three runs at 162 pts with two scatters each. That's great resilience for the points and good long range anti infantry shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nine walkers with scatters is 486 pts, that's 54 wounds with the invulnerable save toting 72 S6 36" range shots. In an alaitoc list with rangers, heavy support and fliers they provide the horde clearance that rangers lack.
kingheff wrote: I prefer catapults on windriders performing the deepstrike catapult bomb similarly to guardians. If they survive the reply they're able to fall back and shoot or move to another objective.
For scatter lasers I prefer the look of war walkers, a squad of three runs at 162 pts with two scatters each. That's great resilience for the points and good long range anti infantry shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nine walkers with scatters is 486 pts, that's 54 wounds with the invulnerable save toting 72 S6 36" range shots. In an alaitoc list with rangers, heavy support and fliers they provide the horde clearance that rangers lack.
Definitely looking at the shadow weavers and war walkers in my lists, although I'm wondering of the warwalkers sporting starcannons are a strong way to go. yes, they're 66pts compared to 54pts with the scatter lasers but 3 of them are throwing out some serious firepower. I do like your thought process though on horde clearance (add that with the shadow weavers for some extra fun).
I'm currently building a dual craftworld list, an Iyanden spirithost and probably an Alaitoc battalion. Having warwalkers with scatters is quite tempting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, based on recent discussions...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry to keep spamming, but what are your thoughts on axe vs sword guard?
Axe guard are 45pts per model, sword guard 35pts. I'm thinking of running a wraith host detachment but wonder if the 2CP to give the swords a 4+ invuln for one turn is too much of a price to pay. Axes have tremendous resiliency (with Protect and Fortune), and now with reroll charges on spiritseer and +1 attack from the strat, can do some serious damage. S7 AP-3 D3 damage vs S6 AP-3 1D. I think I'd rather spend my CPs on the +1 Attack strat and Guided wraithsight, than the 2CP 4+ invuln for the swords.
Especially with cawl's wrath and Oblits, I've seen unprotected wraithguard just wiped off the table. Of course, the conversation comes up about axes on foot in large numbers or smaller unit of swords in wave serpent.
Walkers with star cannons is my usual loadout, not enough shots for hoards but elite infantry or light vehicles are what I use them for and they're very good at that.
I'd swap the two hemlocks for hunter exarchs, make more sense to me in an alaitoc list.
With the blades it depends how you want to use them. With swords they can dice apart a whole lot of infantry, the axes are good against tanks. But they always go in a serpent, they're just too slow on foot, especially in an eldar list.
Definitely looking at the shadow weavers and war walkers in my lists, although I'm wondering of the warwalkers sporting starcannons are a strong way to go. yes, they're 66pts compared to 54pts with the scatter lasers but 3 of them are throwing out some serious firepower. I do like your thought process though on horde clearance (add that with the shadow weavers for some extra fun).
If you're going with significant numbers of SWs then I'd personally double down on the starcannon walkers. At 66 points they're a fantastic light vee that can threaten anything on the board with doom support due to their weight of fire and hefty innate AP, while at the same time being a unit that doesn't cripple you if several go down during the course of the match.
I just snagged 3 wraithlords. Thinking about running them naked as cheap distraction carnifexes. T8 10w 3+/6+++ Ulthwe trait for 85 points seems reasonable. It's no plagueburst crawler yeah, but it's also cheaper, faster, and doesn't mind getting stuck in CC.
slave.entity wrote: I just snagged 3 wraithlords. Thinking about running them naked as cheap distraction carnifexes. T8 10w 3+/6+++ Ulthwe trait for 85 points seems reasonable. It's no plagueburst crawler yeah, but it's also cheaper, faster, and doesn't mind getting stuck in CC.
I assume you know it won't be the most competitive thing ever, but it could work. I wouldn't do completely naked though, at least give them swords so they are actually somewhat of a threat to things.
Yeah they're not competitive but at 85 points they're good enough a casual pick.
I feel like anything that inflates their points cost is a bit of a waste though. The sword lets them swing at S9 D6 damage instead of S7 flat 3 damage. I doubt they're ever going to connect with anything worth swinging the sword at, and if they do the S7 AP3 flat 3 damage fists will do just fine.
Practically speaking the sword is only better against T8 targets which I highly doubt are ever going to be chargeable by wraithlords. I expect these guys to run in, tank some hits, kill some infantry, and die. To that end I might even pay the 12 points for double flamers before paying the 10 points for a sword.
I'd put at least one shuriken cannon on Lord so he could shoot and then use fire and fade to move additional "7 to enemy. No flamers - catapults cost nothing and feel simply better to me.
Lord's can work well supporting an assault style force with a couple of shuriken cannons or with, personally for me, star cannons providing some backfield melee threat for a gunline.
They're not the most powerful selection in the codex but they provide a decent threat to any army that wants to get in close to your lines and with the points drop they're a very viable option if not the most competitive.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, how would a Wraith Construct army fair these days?
They are pretty good at busting elite infantry and heavy targets but will definitely struggle against hordes. My advice is don't run a pure Wraithost, you will need some Troop choices to provide anti-horde firepower, CPs and ObjSec.
Having said that, I think that a Wraith-heavy army is definitely viable after the Chapter Approved points drops. Not top-tier by any stretch but good enough for fun games and non-tourny play.
I would build your Wraithlords with Shuricannons and Glaives and your Wraithknights with either shield/glaive or shield/suncannon with scatter lasers. This will give you as much anti-infantry firepower as you can muster while still hitting hard in melee against heavier targets. For shooting big targets, a big blob of Wraithguard with cannons in the Webway can do a lot of damage once you have cleared chaff screens away.
Wraithguard with D-scythes and Wraithblades have some mileage but need Wave Serpents to get them places. This is no bad thing as an army of all T7/T8 targets will definitely make life harder for your opponent, particularly if stacked with the Alaitoc or Ulthwe traits. The Hemlock is also good and is a Wraith unit as well as another psyker.
Back these up with a sprinkling of HQs and 3 MSU Ranger squads for feeding CPs and grabbing objectives and you should have a decently competitive force.
Seems like wraithknight going down in price means i can include one my 2k list. I bought the eldar craftworld box, and will post a list I am planning up that uses the uthwe ruleset.
Shadenuat wrote: I'd put at least one shuriken cannon on Lord so he could shoot and then use fire and fade to move additional "7 to enemy. No flamers - catapults cost nothing and feel simply better to me.
This is pretty awesome. Works best with a single wraithlord, though I suppose even just FnF 1 of the 3 is not bad. If I'm running 3 wraithlords I'm still fairly tempted to just run them naked as carnifexes basically. 85 points is soooo cheap. That's 8.5 points per T8 wound.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, how would a Wraith Construct army fair these days?
They are pretty good at busting elite infantry and heavy targets but will definitely struggle against hordes. My advice is don't run a pure Wraithost, you will need some Troop choices to provide anti-horde firepower, CPs and ObjSec.
Having said that, I think that a Wraith-heavy army is definitely viable after the Chapter Approved points drops. Not top-tier by any stretch but good enough for fun games and non-tourny play.
I would build your Wraithlords with Shuricannons and Glaives and your Wraithknights with either shield/glaive or shield/suncannon with scatter lasers. This will give you as much anti-infantry firepower as you can muster while still hitting hard in melee against heavier targets. For shooting big targets, a big blob of Wraithguard with cannons in the Webway can do a lot of damage once you have cleared chaff screens away.
Wraithguard with D-scythes and Wraithblades have some mileage but need Wave Serpents to get them places. This is no bad thing as an army of all T7/T8 targets will definitely make life harder for your opponent, particularly if stacked with the Alaitoc or Ulthwe traits. The Hemlock is also good and is a Wraith unit as well as another psyker.
Back these up with a sprinkling of HQs and 3 MSU Ranger squads for feeding CPs and grabbing objectives and you should have a decently competitive force.
Thanks for the advice, luckily I built by current Wraithlord with that loadout, unluckily my Wraithknight has duel heavy wraith cannons. But I'm thinking I might do half wraith host, half guardian style units (tanks, defenders, wind riders, etc.) to fill in the anti-infantry role and works for my Craftworld's fluff.
Tiberius501 wrote: [Thanks for the advice, luckily I built by current Wraithlord with that loadout, unluckily my Wraithknight has duel heavy wraith cannons. But I'm thinking I might do half wraith host, half guardian style units (tanks, defenders, wind riders, etc.) to fill in the anti-infantry role and works for my Craftworld's fluff.
Dual Wraithcannon is a bit over-costed and the lack of an invulnerable save can hurt but at least it is not as bad as it was. Stick some shoulder guns on and run him on a flank where he can use his range and mobility to bust tanks while avoiding the worst of enemy reprisals.
Still overpriced compared to most Imperial Knights but at least he is easier to buff with Psykers and/or Autarch.
They’re tough as hell, but still need support. I like to accompany my Wraith-cannon webway bomb with my Biel-Tan “Natural Leader” (its a fantastic warlord trait, especially for a psyker), and my Wraithblades with a stock Autarch in a Wave Serpent. Speaking of Wave Serpents, they make decent weapon platforms if you go with dual Star Cannons/Bright Lances and CTM.
I have had success putting a D-scythe Wraith unit in the webway with a Warlock. He casts Quicken to get them in range. They shoot, with an option of using Fire and Fade. Two units in the webway is 3cp, but it can be impactful.
Fifty wrote: I have had success putting a D-scythe Wraith unit in the webway with a Warlock. He casts Quicken to get them in range. They shoot, with an option of using Fire and Fade. Two units in the webway is 3cp, but it can be impactful.
You can make it cheaper on CPs if you give the Warlock the Alaitoc Relic, Shiftshroud of Alanssair. Or even just put the Warlock on a Jetbike and Advance him towards wherever the Scytheguard appear.
Having said that, I don't much fancy this tactic. Quicken has a WC7 meaning you only have just over a 50% chance of pulling it off and you can bet your opponent will try to Deny it. The problem is that if it goes wrong, your expensive Scytheguard are going to be left swinging in the breeze and you can bet your opponent will do everything in their power to make sure you won't get so good a chance again.
In any case, I thought this was not legal. Didn't the March FAQ ban further movement after arriving from Reserves after Chaos players started abusing Warp Time?
Tiberius501 wrote: [Thanks for the advice, luckily I built by current Wraithlord with that loadout, unluckily my Wraithknight has duel heavy wraith cannons. But I'm thinking I might do half wraith host, half guardian style units (tanks, defenders, wind riders, etc.) to fill in the anti-infantry role and works for my Craftworld's fluff.
Dual Wraithcannon is a bit over-costed and the lack of an invulnerable save can hurt but at least it is not as bad as it was. Stick some shoulder guns on and run him on a flank where he can use his range and mobility to bust tanks while avoiding the worst of enemy reprisals.
Still overpriced compared to most Imperial Knights but at least he is easier to buff with Psykers and/or Autarch.
Wow, I hadn't realised how good the suncannon was, I just took the anti-tank option without really looking at the others... that and 2 scatter lasers seems pretty damn nice with the 5++ as well. Hmm, I'm gunna have to try and break these guns off now!
Good way to think about the Suncannon WK, its just a Sword and board WK that you pay +30 points for to have an extra shooting attack. The feet are better or the same in close combat than the sword in 95% of situations anyway, so its still a close combat optimized WK really.
There was a really good article on frontline gaming a while ago about Wraithguard; my take away from it (maybe not the exact intent of the author mind!) was the D-Scythe dudes are great targets for “Matchless Agility” as the scythes are assault weapons anyway, and hit automatically. If you include the 3.5” disembarkation from a Wave Serpent (because it’s “within” and not “completely within”, and they have 40mm bases), any turn they start in a transport, and you have 1CP to burn, they have a threat range of 3.5+5+6+8=22.5” without having to rely on a Quicken going off.
Even though the Seer is now cheap....he has drawbacks.
T7 and 12 wound targetable model with mostly junk psychics.
They say with the new wraith strategems he could have a purpose.
expensive HQs tend to buff this edition AS WELL as fight. So you need to find more than 1 roll for him.
I love the Distortion Cannon, but the short range hurts. If games had loads of los blocking terrain he would be great.
Alas most boards cannot conceal a ripper swarm in 8th
Sadly IA:xenos stilll remain largely ignored and barely updated aside minor codex releases, so Wraithseer is stuck with Spirit Host keyword and without Wraith Host or Wraith Construct ones so the new stratagems/detachment from nihilus are useless for him.
Give me your opinions, oh collective, on two alternative buys:
3 support platforms vs 3 war walkers.
My starter-CWE force as it currently stands is: 20 Guardians 10 DAs 10 Scouts 6 Fire Dragons 6 Banshees 6 swooping hawks 3 shining spears/windriders 2 hemlocks/CHEs 1 Wraithknight 1 Wraithlord 5 WG/WBs Wave Serpent Avatar & HQs.
I want to be able to plug in a small gunny unit to various lists. I like the look of Star Walkers (nice profile, fairly resilient, now cheap) and Shadow Weavers (cheap indirect fire, I play a lot of ITC). Both have their merits. Which would you buy & paint first? Many thanks in advance.
3 War Walkers magnetised will serve you better in more situations than some vibro cannon support platforms. The walkers also scale better in terms of what points you play at and can deep strike which is a good option too!
NuhJuhKuh wrote: There was a really good article on frontline gaming a while ago about Wraithguard; my take away from it (maybe not the exact intent of the author mind!) was the D-Scythe dudes are great targets for “Matchless Agility” as the scythes are assault weapons anyway, and hit automatically. If you include the 3.5” disembarkation from a Wave Serpent (because it’s “within” and not “completely within”, and they have 40mm bases), any turn they start in a transport, and you have 1CP to burn, they have a threat range of 3.5+5+6+8=22.5” without having to rely on a Quicken going off.
Ah, nice tip. But lol this and Lightning Fast Reflexes working on Wraithguard is so unfluffy. Didn't Wraithguard even have special rules for how slow they were in previous editions?
Their base movement is still the lowest in the codex if memory serves, you can help overcome this with strategies and powers but they're slow by craftworlds standards.
The sword blades are decent anti hoard, especially when used as iyanden with the psytronome, a unit of ten giving 40 attacks on the charge, I think 70 with the psytronome on the charge, they chew through a lot of chaff.
I have noticed a lot of MInd War in the recent lists.
I love the power in theory but have yet to find it useful on tabletop.
My problems are 1) too few enemy characters 2) characters are way across the board and too fare away.
I think with a Hemlock, warlock power, maybe some DE allies and such you could wreck some enemies, but I just haven't seen it.
I used to love Fortune but recently have been taking Executioner to clear out some chaff. Most opponents wont try to nullify it as they want to take out Doom.
Speaking of Doom. Have you seen or fielded an elder Farseer without it this edition???
Been tinkering with various Ynnari / Craftworld / Coven / Kabal lists over the past year and my ADHD has me wanting to incorporate more Harlequin components into a list. My question is actually around Support Weapons, specifically with Shadow Weavers. If I'm not mistaken, you could theoretically have up to 9 support units (3 squads of 3 units). As I've never used them before, my second question is that after deployment, each support weapon ostensibly becomes its own unit for purposes of declaring firing or being selected for psychic powers.
So in this instance, it would be to babysit the support weapons with an autarch as opposed to trying to cast Guide on them.
The list I've been tinkering with incorporates some pretty durable elements from coven for board control, fire support, objective holding, and psychic support from the Craftworlds detachment, and then some additional shenanigans from the Harlequins detachment.
You're correct, you can take three squads of three which then act independently after deployment, but they must be deployed in their squads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think mind war could work with a warlock and farseer on bikes in an aggressive list. Give the warlock embolden to buff the seer to give him 11LD, give the seer mind war and doom, throw in a hemlock for the additional minus two and things like company commanders or orks will have a tough time of it. You've always got smite if there's nothing in range. It's not the optimal option but it's not bad.
Even though the Seer is now cheap....he has drawbacks.
T7 and 12 wound targetable model with mostly junk psychics.
They say with the new wraith strategems he could have a purpose.
expensive HQs tend to buff this edition AS WELL as fight. So you need to find more than 1 roll for him.
I love the Distortion Cannon, but the short range hurts. If games had loads of los blocking terrain he would be great.
Alas most boards cannot conceal a ripper swarm in 8th
Sadly IA:xenos stilll remain largely ignored and barely updated aside minor codex releases, so Wraithseer is stuck with Spirit Host keyword and without Wraith Host or Wraith Construct ones so the new stratagems/detachment from nihilus are useless for him.
Yeah being targetable is a pain, it's a shame but I'm going to try it out in some friendlies anyway. I just want to get the thing into combat and chop something up.
Been tinkering with various Ynnari / Craftworld / Coven / Kabal lists over the past year and my ADHD has me wanting to incorporate more Harlequin components into a list. My question is actually around Support Weapons, specifically with Shadow Weavers. If I'm not mistaken, you could theoretically have up to 9 support units (3 squads of 3 units). As I've never used them before, my second question is that after deployment, each support weapon ostensibly becomes its own unit for purposes of declaring firing or being selected for psychic powers.
So in this instance, it would be to babysit the support weapons with an autarch as opposed to trying to cast Guide on them.
The list I've been tinkering with incorporates some pretty durable elements from coven for board control, fire support, objective holding, and psychic support from the Craftworlds detachment, and then some additional shenanigans from the Harlequins detachment.
Thanks for the help in advance!
So maybe drop the second group of shadow weavers and add an autarch? If the Autarch is your warlord you also can attempt to regen some CPs (and even more likely if Ulthwe using the Trait)
Been tinkering with various Ynnari / Craftworld / Coven / Kabal lists over the past year and my ADHD has me wanting to incorporate more Harlequin components into a list. My question is actually around Support Weapons, specifically with Shadow Weavers. If I'm not mistaken, you could theoretically have up to 9 support units (3 squads of 3 units). As I've never used them before, my second question is that after deployment, each support weapon ostensibly becomes its own unit for purposes of declaring firing or being selected for psychic powers.
So in this instance, it would be to babysit the support weapons with an autarch as opposed to trying to cast Guide on them.
The list I've been tinkering with incorporates some pretty durable elements from coven for board control, fire support, objective holding, and psychic support from the Craftworlds detachment, and then some additional shenanigans from the Harlequins detachment.
Thanks for the help in advance!
So maybe drop the second group of shadow weavers and add an autarch? If the Autarch is your warlord you also can attempt to regen some CPs (and even more likely if Ulthwe using the Trait)
Thanks that's good advice.
I've taken the Shadowseer out and downgraded to a Troupe Master and cut back a few wracks to fit in the Autarch
I’m thinking I’ll run it with my Farseer Skyrunner to 1) keep up with him and be an ablative shield 2) benefit from “Natural Leader” and get shooting re-rolls on everything.
That said, how should I arm them? Star cannon & twin catapults are dead cheap at 55pts post CA2018, but is it worth giving one Vyper either a Bright Lance or EML to fight different targets?
FWIW I typically run my Farseer with DOOM, Executioner and the Beil-Tan psyker relic.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Santa was good to me and I got a Vyper squadron!
I’m thinking I’ll run it with my Farseer Skyrunner to 1) keep up with him and be an ablative shield 2) benefit from “Natural Leader” and get shooting re-rolls on everything.
That said, how should I arm them? Star cannon & twin catapults are dead cheap at 55pts post CA2018, but is it worth giving one Vyper either a Bright Lance or EML to fight different targets?
FWIW I typically run my Farseer with DOOM, Executioner and the Beil-Tan psyker relic.
Cheers all!
I have my three equipped with dual Shuriken cannons, which is going to be especially good for you as Biel-Tan. At 60 points, they are the same shots as 2x Shuriken Cannon windriders, but their survivability goes through the roof for a measly 4 points.
I did consider that, but felt that it would be a waste of “Natural Leader” if they’re accompanying my Farseer. Also, I’ve just put together three classic Warwalkers with that configuration to take advantage of “Battle Focus” and indeed the BielYan trait
NuhJuhKuh wrote: I did consider that, but felt that it would be a waste of “Natural Leader” if they’re accompanying my Farseer. Also, I’ve just put together three classic Warwalkers with that configuration to take advantage of “Battle Focus” and indeed the BielYan trait
I think you'd be better off having that Farseer accompany the Walkers as they are a bit more survivable. The problem with vypers and even walkers with heavy weapons is the negative to hit for moving and shooting, and vypers are too mobile to sit still in my opinion.
At ITC, what's people thoughts on Axe Guard vs Dual Sword Guard? I'm fine tuning my list (getting close) and wondering if I should take the cheaper swords to take on a horde opponent or the aze shield to be more tanky.
here's where I am currently...
Farseer skyrunner 132
Fire Prism 157
Fire Prism 157
3 Shadow Weavers 111
Hemlock 210
Hemlock 210
Harlequin auxiliary
6 Skyweavers, 5 glaives 300
The thought above is Protect on the Spiritseer and Fortune on the Farseer to make the axe guard really tanky. If I go dual sword instead, I'd opt for Empower on the Spiritseer to make the swords get more wounds through (and it's cast on a 6+, weird), take a cheaper warlock instead of Yriel, giving me 8 more Guardians for the squad, aiming them a more useful webway option.
NuhJuhKuh wrote: I did consider that, but felt that it would be a waste of “Natural Leader” if they’re accompanying my Farseer. Also, I’ve just put together three classic Warwalkers with that configuration to take advantage of “Battle Focus” and indeed the BielYan trait
I think you'd be better off having that Farseer accompany the Walkers as they are a bit more survivable. The problem with vypers and even walkers with heavy weapons is the negative to hit for moving and shooting, and vypers are too mobile to sit still in my opinion.
That's why I'd go with your dual shuricannon option for the Vypers, no negative to hit, full rerolls from Farseer trait. Leave the hvy weapons for the warwalkers IMHO, unless you plan to outflank. But if going Biel Tan, more shuriken ain't all that bad Take your heavy weapons on prisms and fliers.
With the Wraithblades I think it's a toss up. They've both done very well for me, in my last game I took both against a custodes army and they were great. I was running my altansar force as iyanden with the psytronome and they both got charges off and chopped up the imperiums finest with applomb. That and some lucky mortal wound output resulted in a turn three tabling.
How many use detachments from more than one trait?
I normally use 2
I really missed the Codex: Craftworlds that introduced the first SwordWind, Wraith, WildRider, etc and Court of the King rules.
WHAT I REALLY LIKED ABOUT that codex was that it implied that Each Craftworld specialized in a certain FORMATION of their units. But most craftworlds had Wraith Units and SwordWind units, Pathfinder formations, etc.
So it was understood there could be a version of the 'black guardians' on some craftworld named XYZ that would work in their Detachment like an Ulthwe one, but they could then bring in their own SwordWind Detachment and a Patrol of their Wild Rider jet bike units.
I don't like that the current edition seems to make you 'ally' different craftworlds if you want different Traits.
Q: If a unit of Wraithblades is targeted by the Psytronome of
Iyanden relic and the Wrath of the Dead Stratagem, what is
their Attacks characteristic that phase?
A: 5. When modifying characteristics you always apply
any multiplication or division (rounding fractions up)
before applying any addition or subtraction.
Well, that sucks, and i doubt they'll adjust their faq on how +1 strength and power fists work to mirror it.
At least they've also prevented ynnari from using the new detachments. That could have gotten bad, real fast
Would you consider spamming 9 vibro cannon support weapons? For 360 pts you get 45 T5 wounds with an average of 18 auto cannon type shots at 48" range with the consecutive shot bonuses on top. That's a lot of potential damage against T7 tanks and elite infantry, even against knights they'll chip away with the advantage of preventing things like gallants from advancing.
I've got three vibro and six d-cannons I could proxy, might have to give it a try soon.
LoS is a problem for them, they are great weapons honestly, (the rules for them at least, +1 AP and to wound, so always -3ap 2+ to wound) but they dont move and must have good LoS in which they have LoS to you too.
Might try them in one big blob with an autarch, they're a bit bigger footprint than a landraider according to my rough comparison and can all fit within buff range just.
Because they're so cheap you can get a lot of other toys too. If they try to take down the vibros that keeps things like flyers and prisms safe, if you're alaitoc 9 support weapons shouldn't go down too quickly.
slave.entity wrote: Curious how that maths against reapers. They're tougher but reapers are more accurate and can fire and fade with a much smaller footprint to boot.
I chucked some numbers into Mathhammer8thed.com.
9 Vibrocannons with an Autarch will expect to do 11 damage to a knight type target. This better than Reapers who expect 7.8 wounds, but is shy of 3x Fire Prisms (+Stratagem) who expect 12.6 wounds, and are about the same cost as 9 guns + Autarch.
The Vibro cannons do prevent advance, but Fire Prisms don't all need LOS and have better chaff killing with the dispersed fire mode.They can also fly out of combat, whereas if a Support battery blob gets caught in melee, theyre pretty much gone for the game. Vibro-cannons are still a bit meh when not focus-firing all on one target.
The fact that they count as nine separate units is quite interesting.
They can give away a lot of kill points, which isn't great obviously.
But the fact that they are separate units makes them potentially difficult to judge for the opponent to assign firepower to take them down compared to bigger single targets. Also they are not that easy to pin down in melee, because they are separate units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you think of this list?
My only problem with your list is board presence. 3 units of 3 Windriders helps, but, you have nothing backing them up should they die turn 1 or 2 as your Fire Prisms want to stay hidden and your Vibro Cannons won’t be moving. Going first you can do some serious damage, but if you fail to kill that Castellan or allow that unit of 30 Boyz to use Da Jump right at you, then there isn’t much left that you can do in the following turns as you’ll be on the back foot struggling to pick up either Eternal War, Maelstrom or ITC points.
I know what you mean, I'd probably not deploy the rangers until I have to to allow them to grab objectives late on if possible.
Maybe scatter laser warwalkers instead of the windriders would be a bit more survivable but I'd lose firepower.
The prisms and vibros can do anti infantry but it's not ideal.
kingheff wrote: I know what you mean, I'd probably not deploy the rangers until I have to to allow them to grab objectives late on if possible.
Maybe scatter laser warwalkers instead of the windriders would be a bit more survivable but I'd lose firepower.
The prisms and vibros can do anti infantry but it's not ideal.
I’d be more inclined to go with 1 squad of 5/6 Windriders and either 1 squad of 3, or a squad of Hawks. I’d also prob drop the Scatter for Shuriken Cannons as well, depending on preference though.
Makes the big squad a bit more of a target, but makes it easier to protect and support with powers and stratagems. The Hawks then also have the ability to only be on the table turns 2, 4 and 6 if you want (or 1, 3 and 5) to limit their exposure to death. All depends on the game you’re playing though.
Originally I thought about a squad of nine for lighting reflexes etc but soon abandoned that idea because of board presence.
A unit of hawks isn't a bad shout, I do love hawks even if they are flimsy.
I would probably keep the scatter lasers just because of the range makes it easier to keep them at a distance to keep the -1 to hit.
So what are some best practices when running Craftworld and/or Ynnari vs. competitive ITC Orks? Our local meta has been absolutely over-run with folks running 120 or more Boyz, the Loota spam, etc... and while my lists always feel competitive, I always feel more stressed vs. Orks than anything else.
When running Ynnari I often do a 6 and 4 man Harley Haywire bike unit to answer the Knight meta, and they're no slouches vs. weak hordes... but I still feel like I need another anti-horde tool in the toolbox.
That's why im thinking 5 Iyanden wraithblades in a serpent with spiritseer (with psy power +1 to wound). They hit a unit of 30 orks and use the wraith sight strat. With psytronome, that's 30 attacks (35 if going with vigilus detachment), hitting on 3s rerolling, wounding on 2s with -3 AP. You may not even need the serpent if the terrain works (may need movement psy then)
Anyone have any advice for an all infantry Craftworld army? I have pretty much every unit in the Codex frequently in triplicate and over a dozen Warlocks, but I own zero wave serpants, grav tanks, wraithknights or Warwalkers. [I do own three Wraithlords, and a single ViperJetbike.]
I wanna share with you guys a cool tactic I used yesterday against a Blood Angels player. We were using the long deployment (football field, I can't remember the name), but despite being quite far back in my deployment, he used a Stratagem that allowed his 15-man Death Company unit to Move+Advance before the game began.
That put the unit in a position to move in his turn and be only a 7" rerollable charge away from my Spears, Windriders, and a Fire Prism. I'd never used the redeploy Strat before, but I realized that I really wanted my Storm Gaurdians in front of those units, so I used the Strat to move the Spears & Prism away, and put the Storm Guardians way in front of everything.
I specifically placed the SGs 10" away from the Death Company (they were that close to my deployment even before the first turn began). That prevented them from moving their full distance as they could not Fly over the SGs and still land 1" away from them. So the max they could move was 9". And everything behind the SGs was just far enough behind them to prevent Pile-in to those units.
I was pretty proud of thinking of this on the spot and wanted to share it with you guys. I'm pretty sure it allowed me to win the game overall, since the DCs were only able to kill the SGs, rather than my Spears, WRs & a Prism. All of which made big contributions to later turns.
I also killed a Storm Raven solely with 2 Skyrunner Autarchs with Fusion guns & twin-cats. That freed up my Prisms, who were going to fire at the Raven, to link Fire and kill one of his 2 Armigers.
That seems like the very best way to use Phantasm. And in terms of CP usage, it balances out with what he spent to use Forlorn Fury, so well worth it, in my opinion.
I've never had cause to use it as I don't play very often and no-one has tried to pull a stunt like that on me. The simple "bluff" method of using it to misdirect my opponent seems not useful enough. WIth the new missions in CA2018 though, setting up in full first, then moving three units after my opponent sets up in full might be far more worthwhile.
Fifty wrote: That seems like the very best way to use Phantasm. And in terms of CP usage, it balances out with what he spent to use Forlorn Fury, so well worth it, in my opinion.
I've never had cause to use it as I don't play very often and no-one has tried to pull a stunt like that on me. The simple "bluff" method of using it to misdirect my opponent seems not useful enough. WIth the new missions in CA2018 though, setting up in full first, then moving three units after my opponent sets up in full might be far more worthwhile.
There's a player at my LGS that does this every time he drops first post-CA. it's delightfully infuriatingly fluffy.
We were indeed playing a CA mission, but I actually deployed last. I should have just put the SGs in front from the beginning, but due to the limited terrain, I put them in cover, thinking he wouldn't be able to get that close.
But he rolled a 5 to Advance, putting those DC too close for comfort, so I used the Strat to place them exactly where they would prevent their full movement.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Anyone have any advice for an all infantry Craftworld army? I have pretty much every unit in the Codex frequently in triplicate and over a dozen Warlocks, but I own zero wave serpants, grav tanks, wraithknights or Warwalkers. [I do own three Wraithlords, and a single ViperJetbike.]
I love all infantry lists....but they never seem to work.
So now I use 5 tanks and a plane....not my normal playstyle but for 8th....you cannot beat vehicles.
For an all infantry army, careful use of the Webway stratagem will be essential. Maybe include some Rangers too, to deploy late. Don't set up on the edge of your deployment zone without a good reason -sit at the back and the enemy may have to come to you. Large defender or stprm guardian squads can survive surprisingly well if protected by a celestial shield, matchless agility, Fortune and Protect and choose the Iyanden or Ulthwe traits. Alaitpc even more so, if you can stay ver 12" away. Do you have Wraithguard? They can soak up a LOT of damage.
Galef wrote: I wanna share with you guys a cool tactic I used yesterday against a Blood Angels player.
We were using the long deployment (football field, I can't remember the name), but despite being quite far back in my deployment, he used a Stratagem that allowed his 15-man Death Company unit to Move+Advance before the game began.
That put the unit in a position to move in his turn and be only a 7" rerollable charge away from my Spears, Windriders, and a Fire Prism.
I'd never used the redeploy Strat before, but I realized that I really wanted my Storm Gaurdians in front of those units, so I used the Strat to move the Spears & Prism away, and put the Storm Guardians way in front of everything.
I specifically placed the SGs 10" away from the Death Company (they were that close to my deployment even before the first turn began). That prevented them from moving their full distance as they could not Fly over the SGs and still land 1" away from them. So the max they could move was 9". And everything behind the SGs was just far enough behind them to prevent Pile-in to those units.
I was pretty proud of thinking of this on the spot and wanted to share it with you guys. I'm pretty sure it allowed me to win the game overall, since the DCs were only able to kill the SGs, rather than my Spears, WRs & a Prism. All of which made big contributions to later turns.
I also killed a Storm Raven solely with 2 Skyrunner Autarchs with Fusion guns & twin-cats. That freed up my Prisms, who were going to fire at the Raven, to link Fire and kill one of his 2 Armigers.
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Phantasm is the strat I think. It's really good for mech lists. When deploying first with 4 Serpents I've put two on each flank, then use Phantasm to pick a flank to put all 4 on. The opponent basically get's no useful information to go on from my deployment.
I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.
Fifty wrote: For an all infantry army, careful use of the Webway stratagem will be essential. Maybe include some Rangers too, to deploy late. Don't set up on the edge of your deployment zone without a good reason -sit at the back and the enemy may have to come to you. Large defender or stprm guardian squads can survive surprisingly well if protected by a celestial shield, matchless agility, Fortune and Protect and choose the Iyanden or Ulthwe traits. Alaitpc even more so, if you can stay ver 12" away. Do you have Wraithguard? They can soak up a LOT of damage.
I've got 20-30 Wraithguard. Conventional wisdom seems to be to deepstrike them, but to me it makes more sense to stick them on the board and webway in Fire Dragons as those guys arn't doing squat if they start on the board outside transports.
Previous editions I've focused on big blobs of Seer supported wraithguard and wraithlord supported by in cover rangers and very far away reapers, backed up by deepstriking Swooping Hawks. I'm unsure if this is viable in 8th however, as Wraithguard seem to have gotten a lot worse in terms of durability, as have rangers.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.
I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used. But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.
I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.
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He's already played his stratagem, so you are fine. Just wait until he completes the action and you are free to play yours. He cannot take his back and claim sequencing as he's already done it.
mokoshkana wrote: He's already played his stratagem, so you are fine. Just wait until he completes the action and you are free to play yours. He cannot take his back and claim sequencing as he's already done it.
Eldrad is a top tier competitive unit like Yvraine. Avatar and Phoenix lords can be fun but they are not bleeding edge competitive like Eldrad. I could see Amallyn Shadowguide being used if someone was looking to fill out a vanguard. She does almost nothing in gameplay terms though. Too bad. Could be kind cool if she could screen for characters like a sort of one-man ranger squad.
Storm guardians are hord-priced now (6ppm), and sync well with an Avatar for his fearless buff. 24-model Blobs with -1/2 to hit and 4++ are pretty tasty, but their offensive output hinges on stacking lots of buffs that you might want going elsewhere.
There's was an Avatar list that won a big ITC Tourney a little while ago, don't have any details sorry but someone might. It was before Chapter Approved too I think.
-----------------------------
Question for the tactica thread:
Since Wraithguard gained the option of D-Scythes in 6th(?) Edition, we've been unable to mix weapons options within the unit. Hypothetically, if we were allowed to do this, would you?
Same thing for Wraithblades (i.e. a mix of Swords and axe/shields), as they seem to be the Talk of the Town lately.
I'm building 3x war walkers and I'm debating on the load out. I'm leaning towards 2 with dual Bright Lances and 1 with dual Missile Launchers or 3 with one BL and one Missile Launcher as more of a heavy weapon hybrid. Thoughts?
Star cannons are boss, especially when targetting a doomed unit. And shuricannons transform the walker into a scout role, harrassing flanks and capping distant objective. I'd definitely magnetise them.
mokoshkana wrote: I'm building 3x war walkers and I'm debating on the load out. I'm leaning towards 2 with dual Bright Lances and 1 with dual Missile Launchers or 3 with one BL and one Missile Launcher as more of a heavy weapon hybrid. Thoughts?
Option 1) is how I built my first squadron, but option 2) is how I'd build them now! If nothing else, makes desicions about which model to take damage first easier, as they're all the same.
Having said that, double Starcannons are relatively cheap now, and with access to Guide and Doom, those 12 S6 -3 D3 shots are gonna sting. 18 Shuriken shots not to be sniffed at either.
So, maybe magnetize if you can? Otherwise my recommendation is 1 BL + 1 AML each
mokoshkana wrote: I'm building 3x war walkers and I'm debating on the load out. I'm leaning towards 2 with dual Bright Lances and 1 with dual Missile Launchers or 3 with one BL and one Missile Launcher as more of a heavy weapon hybrid. Thoughts?
Option 1) is how I built my first squadron, but option 2) is how I'd build them now! If nothing else, makes desicions about which model to take damage first easier, as they're all the same.
Having said that, double Starcannons are relatively cheap now, and with access to Guide and Doom, those 12 S6 -3 D3 shots are gonna sting. 18 Shuriken shots not to be sniffed at either.
So, maybe magnetize if you can? Otherwise my recommendation is 1 BL + 1 AML each
Starcannons don't do much for me as I have 3x Hornets with the Hornet Pulse Laser that's vastly superior (although 12 points more). As for Shuriken Cannons, I have three vypers that would fill that need, so I'm mostly interested in backfield heavy weapons for my war walkers.
The more I think about it, Dual Scatter Laser is 24 shots for a full squad and that only costs 162 points. It's a pretty resilient back field objective grabber.
I run my war walkers with brightlances a lot of the time. 6 lances average 10 wounds against t7, 3+sv without psychic support which is a sweet spot against most vehicles, and make efficient use of guide. On the other hand they are a pain to chew through thanks to their invuln and considerable stats for the price. Add Alaitoc or Ulthwe and they're a pain to shut down.
I sometimes went with 6 shuricannons as i don't own Vypers. If i had three of those with the current pointscosts i'd leave shuriken and advancing on objectives to them.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.
I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.
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A roll off would have been required. Page 178 of the rulebook in the sidebar to the left "Sequencing". Both Forlorn Fury and Phantasm stratagems have the wording "start of the battle but before the first round". This means you both have to declare all your stratagems that you are using pre-first turn (such as this case) and roll off to see who executes theirs first.
It's a wierd one. I don't think Galefs example broke any rules- he used his stratagem at the appropriate time. If both players want to wait for the other player to declare, then a dice off seems sensible.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: It's a wierd one. I don't think Galefs example broke any rules- he used his stratagem at the appropriate time. If both players want to wait for the other player to declare, then a dice off seems sensible.
I was just pointing out the obscure rule that rarely comes into play I break rules unwittingly every single game so I'm more guilty of rules violating than most!
I do wonder how that works tho. The fairest way is for both to secretly write down what if anything they will use beforehand. Used to come into play a lot with the pre FAQ Eldar Rangers rule when fighting something like Alpha Legion or guard with Scout Sentinels.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.
I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.
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A roll off would have been required. Page 178 of the rulebook in the sidebar to the left "Sequencing". Both Forlorn Fury and Phantasm stratagems have the wording "start of the battle but before the first round". This means you both have to declare all your stratagems that you are using pre-first turn (such as this case) and roll off to see who executes theirs first.
The problem is that I would not have used my Strat unless he used his. The use of Forlorn Fury "triggered" the use of Phantasm.
And Sequencing doesn't really work here because it requires it to be a particular players turn, yet this all happened before the first battle round began.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm not sure if you have to dice off to determine which player uses pre-game move strats first though. Might come up if you play vs the same Blood Angels opponent again.
I'm under the impression that Strats can be used a reaction to events, regardless of sequencing, so long as the Strat guidelines are met. So I only use the Strat because he rolled high enough on his Advance to make me worry. The timing was valid for my Strat, so it could be used.
But even if we rolled off in this case, I think the outcome would have been the same. I would have placed the SGs so that even with a 5-6" Advance, the DC could not Fly over the SGs and thus had to stop 1" in front of them.
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A roll off would have been required. Page 178 of the rulebook in the sidebar to the left "Sequencing". Both Forlorn Fury and Phantasm stratagems have the wording "start of the battle but before the first round". This means you both have to declare all your stratagems that you are using pre-first turn (such as this case) and roll off to see who executes theirs first.
The problem is that I would not have used my Strat unless he used his. The use of Forlorn Fury "triggered" the use of Phantasm.
And Sequencing doesn't really work here because it requires it to be a particular players turn, yet this all happened before the first battle round began.
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Yep! Probably needs a further FAQ! But in the fairest sense you both have to probably declare at the same time or else the person who declares second seems to get the advantage.
But even then a roll off would be required to see who would do their first. According to the rulebook at least. Its rare it comes up tho
"If these things occur before or after the start of the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved"
So Agents of Vect is at the whim of a roll off? Because that doesn't "trigger" until another strat is used. But what you are suggesting is that since they happen at the same time, sequencing would give the player whose turn it is the ability to choose which is resolved first.
So if a Knight uses the +1 invul strat and you try to counter it, Agents of Vect will obviously be chosen by the Knight player to be resolved first, and thus allow them to use their strat.
That's silly.
He chose to use Forlorn Fury and began to resolve it, getting a 5" Advance. That prompted me to counter with Phantasm.
Are you saying that because he began to resolve his Strat, I missed my opportunity to use Phantasm?
Because the timing was still there for me to use it. And forcing us to back track and roll off may have altered his Advance roll, which clearly would favored me and thus been unfair.
No, I am pretty sure we did it correctly. The only different way we might have done it was for me to declare Phantasm before he began resolving his move.
Galef wrote: So Agents of Vect is at the whim of a roll off? Because that doesn't "trigger" until another strat is used. But what you are suggesting is that since they happen at the same time, sequencing would give the player whose turn it is the ability to choose which is resolved first.
So if a Knight uses the +1 invul strat and you try to counter it, Agents of Vect will obviously be chosen by the Knight player to be resolved first, and thus allow them to use their strat.
That's silly.
He chose to use Forlorn Fury and began to resolve it, getting a 5" Advance. That prompted me to counter with Phantasm.
Are you saying that because he began to resolve his Strat, I missed my opportunity to use Phantasm?
Because the timing was still there for me to use it. And forcing us to back track and roll off may have altered his Advance roll, which clearly would favored me and thus been unfair.
No, I am pretty sure we did it correctly. The only different way we might have done it was for me to declare Phantasm before he began resolving his move.
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No way. It only applies to things that happen at the same time (specifically "before the battle begins" or "at the start of X phase"
For things like Vect they usually specifically say "use this strat just after your opponent has spent CPs to use a stratagem"
Phantasm has no such wording. In fact many times its used regardless of whether the opponent has something that's used "after deployment but before the battle begins". In other words Phantasm is more than just a reactive stratagem.
So yeah you have to both declare if you are using any such stratagems (or activating some models ability ie "scout sentinels") and then roll off if BOTH of you are using at least 1.
Reading the Sequencing side bar specifically addresses things like this IMO. I don't see any gray area outside of the declaration order.
Take for instance a mirror match between 2 craftworld eldar players. Who has to declare they are using "phantasm" first? That's why the sequencing side bar was put in to address things like this. It sure could be more clear saying that players need to simultaneously declare which strats/unit abilities they are going to use like this.
I'll certainly grant if both player are using pre-game strats, you should roll off for which player resolves which first, like 2 Eldar players using Phantasm. But there is no way you have to roll off before anything is declared.
I did not intend to use Phantasm (because I already deployed my entire army second) until he declared Forlorn Fury. Now, we should have rolled off at that point to see who resolves which first, but since it really would not have made any changes, we didn't think of it.
His DC were going to move as far forward as he could, and I was going to redeploy to put my SGs as a roadblock.
I see your point about rolling off to resolve, but I don't think I have to declare Phantasm until hearing that Forloirn fury was to be used as well. Then we'd roll off
Vect is an example of a Stratagem being a valid trigger for a stratagem.
I'm not sure how the rules are intended to work out, but I always assumed that, unless there was a rule specifying otherwise, you could react with any valid action.
A good question for YMDC.
Re: who is using "Phantasm" first? Depends on declaration, I would think.
If both declare they want to use it immediately, you roll off, as both decided to do the same thing.
If the second player declares Phantasm in response to the first, then second uses Phantasm after the first; it's an action in response to the first player using phantasm.
If they both declare they'll use Phantasm in response to eachother? Neither. They can't react to what noone has done. Each player must decide to either use it and be reacted to or not use it.
Not sure if thsoe are the rules, but they're how I would have played it.
Let's say I'm the blood angel player. Why do I not have the right to see if you are using Phantasm and then react to whether or not I want to use Forlorn Fury? Perhaps I ONLY want to use it if you DON'T want to use phantasm? Why should it be fair only for the Eldar player in this case? There is no wording in phantasm that suggests this nor is there wording on Forlorn Fury that does.
Bharring,
What happens if both players wait indefinitely before the other declares which strats they are using? Obviously the advantage would belong to the person who is reactive...why not then just have a staring contest to see who flinches first?
The best solution is to have both players secretly write down which ones they plan on using if any. Then they reveal at same time. Then they roll off for order if they both had at least 1 thing. Its tough luck if someone only wanted to use a stratagem if the other player did.
Let's say I'm the blood angel player. Why do I not have the right to see if you are using Phantasm and then react to whether or not I want to use Forlorn Fury? Perhaps I ONLY want to use it if you DON'T want to use phantasm? Why should it be fair only for the Eldar player in this case? There is no wording in phantasm that suggests this nor is there wording on Forlorn Fury that does.
Easy solution: If BA player wants to use FF, they declare it, then Eldar player can declare P as a reaction If Eldar player declares P, the BA can then declare FF as a reaction.
In either case, the player who intended on doing X did so and the other player reacted. I agree both situations would THEN require a reroll to determine which is resolved But why should either have to send the CPs on a Strat they were not going to use until the situation of the game changes?
Unrelated Stratagem question, but does Forewarned trigger off of things like "Da Jump", or is it literally only valid vs. deepstrike as it refers to units set up from "reinforcements"?
"What happens if both players wait indefinitely before the other declares which strats they are using?"
What happens when you want to wait to select the next shooting unit until after your opponent uses RIS? Nothing, if he doesn't want to use RIS.
In this case, gameplay would proceed. If neither are using Phantom/Fury, then the before-game is over, and it's time to move on.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Unrelated Stratagem question, but does Forewarned trigger off of things like "Da Jump", or is it literally only valid vs. deepstrike as it refers to units set up from "reinforcements"?
Reinforcements does not mean 'Reserves'. Its more equal to the old term 'deepstrike'. I dislike that they've used a term that sounds so much like reserve forces to refer to something to do with movement. They then confuse things even further by using the term "Reinforcement Points" occasionally when talking about the points you might keep as extra for Daemon summoning etc.
Basically reinforcements covers any time where you set up a unit on the battle field more than 9 inches away from the enemy. The description of Reinforcements (on the movement phase page) is very broad in scope and covers all phases and circumstances as far as I can read. So yes, Forewarned can be used when an Ork player used 'Da jump'.
In the other thread Galef brought up an interesting point.
If all 'before the first turn' must be declared at the same time ...due to some inference from the FAQ on other sequencing......then that would totally nerf the use of the most used stratagem..: Command Re-roll.
Obviously you can choose to use that stratagem after the others have been resolved. So It leads to a conclusion that other strategems could follow suit in that part of the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On ANOTHER note. I think I will be facing off vs my first Tau list since 3rd ed. My opponent is normally top 3 in every tournament and has played Guard, Dark Eldar and Tau since 3rd.I beat him my last game and maybe 1 other time in all those years since 3rd.
What should I watch out for and what should I target???
I'm just starting Eldar and was wondering if there is a Warlock equivalent to a Farseer? That is is there a warlock that can cast 2 spells and 2 denies. I am aware of the council but I'm really looking for only 1 model with a reasonable point cost (140-170).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm just starting Eldar and was wondering if there is a Warlock equivalent to a Farseer? That is is there a warlock that can cast 2 spells and 2 denies. I am aware of the council but I'm really looking for only 1 model with a reasonable point cost (140-170).
Nope, only the Farseer. All other single spellcasters in Craftworlds can cast/deny 1 spell.
The bonesinger is hard to adquire now (since it's a limited release model), the rules may come in some PDF format in warcom, but it's pretty much a warlock that only can cast smite or heal 1d3 wounds in vehicles/wraith constructs, for the points cost you are better going off with a Spiritseer or Warlock most of the time.
Lord Perversor wrote: The bonesinger is hard to adquire now (since it's a limited release model), the rules may come in some PDF format in warcom, but it's pretty much a warlock that only can cast smite or heal 1d3 wounds in vehicles/wraith constructs, for the points cost you are better going off with a Spiritseer or Warlock most of the time.
I already have a Farseer Skyrunner, who I usually take as my Biel-Tan Warlord (so “Natural Leader” and “Spirit Stone”) with Doom and Executioner, and he gets a lot of work done by himself. Also just finished painting a squadron of Vypers who will act as his ablative shield as he zips around the battlefield while benefitting from his passive “Natural Leader” warlord trait.
But I’m waiting on a 2nd Farseer, this one on foot (actually the original Eldrad model - I want to convert it into a generic Farseer like the one GW did back in ‘98!), and I don’t know what powers to give him.
I’m thinking Guide and Fortune, and keep him in the back field buffing my long-range units. Or should I mix up the powers?
Then again, if I take a Hemlock then maybe I should consider Mindwar... but on which Farseer?
Mind War is probably best on the Jetseer since he will have the mobility to go hunting enemy characters. If you go this route, consider adding some Swooping Hawks since they give nearby units +1Ld. Every Mortal Wound helps.
I would probably go Doom and Mindwar on the Jetseer and Guide and Fortune on the Footseer but a bit of experimentation may help determine if this works best in practice.
I find faolchus wing works great with a, formerly, footslogging farseer.
If you've got something worth guiding and protecting I'd stick to those powers but mind war is a fun power too, just requires more investment.
So my list has only 10 CPs for an ITC tournament. It is my first of such.
My Warp Jump Autarch Warlord has an Avenger Shuriken Catapult. Is it worth spending 1 CP to get an additional relic....I was think Star of Vaul to permit him to have 4 shuriken 18" shots? He will be in the middle of my mech dar list
And I was taking Seer of the Shifting Vector or should I take Incomparable Hunter. {I was thinking that most characters would laugh off 4 shuriken shots).
admironheart wrote: So my list has only 10 CPs for an ITC tournament. It is my first of such.
My Warp Jump Autarch Warlord has an Avenger Shuriken Catapult. Is it worth spending 1 CP to get an additional relic....I was think Star of Vaul to permit him to have 4 shuriken 18" shots? He will be in the middle of my mech dar list
And I was taking Seer of the Shifting Vector or should I take Incomparable Hunter. {I was thinking that most characters would laugh off 4 shuriken shots).
Sadly the Codex Faq deny you such posibility.
Page 123 – Blazing Star of Vaul
Change the first sentence to read:‘Model with a shuriken pistol or twin shuriken catapult only.
If you have Spare points, the Dark reaper launcher it's your best option, or the Swooping hawk Lasblaster for a bit of anti horde shooting,
Seer of shifting Vector it's a nice Warlord trait that can help if you plan to stick him into melee, also Fate's messenger it's a good option if you feel it's going to take some damage.
admironheart wrote: So my list has only 10 CPs for an ITC tournament. It is my first of such.
My Warp Jump Autarch Warlord has an Avenger Shuriken Catapult. Is it worth spending 1 CP to get an additional relic....I was think Star of Vaul to permit him to have 4 shuriken 18" shots? He will be in the middle of my mech dar list
And I was taking Seer of the Shifting Vector or should I take Incomparable Hunter. {I was thinking that most characters would laugh off 4 shuriken shots).
Sadly the Codex Faq deny you such posibility.
Page 123 – Blazing Star of Vaul
Change the first sentence to read:‘Model with a shuriken pistol or twin shuriken catapult only.
If you have Spare points, the Dark reaper launcher it's your best option, or the Swooping hawk Lasblaster for a bit of anti horde shooting,
Seer of shifting Vector it's a nice Warlord trait that can help if you plan to stick him into melee, also Fate's messenger it's a good option if you feel it's going to take some damage.
It actually doesn't stop him doing it, the Autarch does have a shuriken pistol and the second sentence which is unchanged states that any shuriken weapon can be upgraded.
Take your heavy weapons on prisms and fliers.
