I currently collect ba and play games with a group of 3 mates. the play orcs, space wolves and .. daemons.
Unfortunately since the new 6th edition rules and that white dwarf update, flamers have become well.. stupidly good.

my mate runs a list which includes 27 flamers, how exactly do i deal with them.
He is currently flaming me to death, I have two storm-ravens, 10 assault terminators with storm shields, 10 death company and i still cant win :(
How to i get past the fact he can deep-strike and flame me to death... they have two wounds and a 5 plus invulnerable save.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
thanks.
Oh p.s assault is horrible d3 hits as over-watch.

Allied Grey Knights detachment

Coteaz
Purifiers Pysbolt Ammo
4x Pyscannons
6x Swords
Strike Squad
4x Swords
1x Pyscannon

490pts

Coteaz goes with purifiers and grabs divination powers and gives purifiers prescience

Strike Squad uses Warp Quake to cause auto mishaps

Coteaz allows purifiers to take an out of sequence shooting attack at enemies arriving from reserve within 12" of him and in LOS.

Should clear up the flamer problem fast

I appreciateyour help, but i don't feel that would be enough, they would get obliterated, as he would just deep strike about 18 inches away. then jump 12 inches before unleashing hell. and it is so difficult to get through 27 ( 3 suads of 9) flamers with 2 wounds and 5+ invunerable. Furthermore they are only 23 or 26 points a model, it doesn't make any sense. They can kill any vehicle due to hull points, are ap1 or 2 templates with no armour or cover saves aloud and wound on 4+, How is an orc nob 20 points (i think) and a flamer 23, they are ridiculously under priced.

 samuele999 wrote:
I appreciateyour help, but i don't feel that would be enough, they would get obliterated, as he would just deep strike about 18 inches away. then jump 12 inches before unleashing hell. and it is so difficult to get through 27 ( 3 suads of 9) flamers with 2 wounds and 5+ invunerable. Furthermore they are only 23 or 26 points a model, it doesn't make any sense. They can kill any vehicle due to hull points, are ap1 or 2 templates with no armour or cover saves aloud and wound on 4+, How is an orc nob 20 points (i think) and a flamer 23, they are ridiculously under priced.

Seriously, consider a grey knights allied detachment. Grey Knights are daemon-bane incarnate on the tabletop. Or, use as many long ranged weapons as possible (lascannons rule, dreadnoughts with 2 tl autocannons would probably help as well, additionally, sniper rifle scouts might prove useful en-masse)

i considered them, but flamers kill them to easily, any tank or amour-ed vehicle is a gonna. literally hordes are the only thing that can stop them. P.s they deeeep strike so long range just fails, in addition they only need to deep strike within 8 inches and your vehicle or men are dead meat. Can you explain how grey knights work against them. cause as far as i can tell, flamers could practically kill any greyknights unit. grey knights are too expensive to be considered a good option, there nice 3 or 2+ amour save is just a waste of points.

 BraveRifles wrote:


Coteaz goes with purifiers and grabs divination powers and gives purifiers prescience

Strike Squad uses Warp Quake to cause auto mishaps

Coteaz allows purifiers to take an out of sequence shooting attack at enemies arriving from reserve within 12" of him and in LOS.

Should clear up the flamer problem fast

This^^^

Flame them back? I don't know. I have not faced a list like that. I will say that a drop pod of flamer vets could be exciting....

 samuele999 wrote:
I as he would just deep strike about 18 inches away. then jump 12 inches before unleashing hell.

Then I believe he is cheating. If I am correct you cannot move after deep strike.

Sorry what i meant to state is that, he deep-strikes them 18 inches away and as you cant kill 27 flamers (he uses nurglings for the other half) in one turn, he then moves 12 inches and can flame up to 8 inches, so you are dead meat. Storm-ravens don't work as he just sits beneath it ,as it must move 18 inches and can only turn 90 degrees. or if it hovers it gets flammed to death next turn. and veterans might work, but if you don't kill all 9 models, 2 flamers will kill all of your guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could you work out how many wounds that would cause and then how many models that would kill, they have 2 wounds are toughness 4 and have 5+ inv, brave rifles.
plus then there is the other 2 squads who would wipe you out in 1 turn, that's 490 pts for 23 or 26 x9 pts so 230at max?

I think your problem probably relies in your tactics.
The Grey Knight unit mentioned should help deal with them accordingly...
Also, another option you may want to consider is taking 10 man cultists squads...that is if you do end up taking Coteaz. You can use these squads to screen your Assault Squads, Termies, DC etc. You can charge these smaller squads absorbing the overwatch from the flamers and follow up with a hard strike. This works better if you ally with SW and take Wolves.

Look into Baal Preds, they are worth their points usually, and they put out a large amount of shots, plus if you play them they would help against Hoard, and Crons.

Just a Couple of ideas.

 samuele999 wrote:

He is currently flaming me to death, I have two storm-ravens, 10 assault terminators with storm shields, 10 death company and i still cant win :(
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

More boots, lets shiny special boots?
The more boots you have on the ground, the less of a problem losing them are as they cost less. Quick look at the old CSM codex (troops)- I could take 23ppm plague marines/1k sons, I can take 21ppm bezerkers, 20ppm(?) noise marines, or 15ppm plain CSM. Sure plague marines are tougher, but I will have less boots on the ground- tougher boots, but less of them. And flamers that wound on a 4+ don't care about T5. What they DO care about, is the fact they have a 5++ and no better save. You need mo' guns. Not elite guns, not elite melee units- you need mo' guns. Massed fire will take them out. They are jumppack marines with a 5++ save. Hurricane bolters+TL Asscannon on the stormravens should tear chunks out of the squad, especially if you can fire within 12"

I don't think people grasp how flamers are so good, vehicles will die. bang landraider, baal preadtor, whatever, they have only got to get within 8 inches when they deepstrike and they will wipe your hull points clean.. marines of any type don't stand a chance 3+ armor s rubbish against templates that give you no armor and cover. they wound on 4+. they have 2 wounds toughness 4, inv of 5+, they are jet infantry and only cost 23 or 26 points. explain what a marine player does, how he gets the firepower to destroy 27 flamers in one, or even if you get the chance as he will have deepstriked and flammed half your army to death. assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.

The Strike squad can also cast wasp wake with make all deep strike unit mishap if they arrive within 12" (after scatter) of the unit so try as he may one of the demon squad deploy at 18" gonna mishap and got kill first turn he come in. He also can't move after deep strike so just run up and peper spray him with storm bolter + psycannon (24" range) then charge. Remember to take some cheap unit to be overwatch diversion though since even grey knight unit doesn't fare well with 4-5 d3 ap3 flamer overwatch

That's a good point i think ill get some grey knight allies! so strike squads all the way, maybe supported by my famous reclusiarch death company 50 re roll to hit re roll to wound attacks?

If he's got 27 flamers in the army, that's 621 points spread into deep-striking units of 9. Based on what you've said about his Nurglings, it sounds like his army is very much a one-trick pony based around his Flamers, and you can take advantage of this.

What you need to do in situations like this is spread out. Have a shooty core, such as a couple of rifleman dreadnoughts or a Devastator squad, then spread out tactical squads to surround these. Take full advantage of your 2" coherency and deploy your tactical marines in a zigzag pattern, leaving a gap of around 4-5" between your shooty core and their bubblewrap.

This way, he won't be able to fry more than maybe three or four marines unless he's placed more or less perfectly, and he's risking mishaps if he tries to squeeze in the gap between your units - if you place it well, he shouldn't be able to fit those 9-man units in the gap at all without mishapping.

The Coteaz squad suggested would make an excellent centerpoint for this as well, making it near impossible for him to set up within 12" of that unit and therefore essentially impossible to be within around 24" of your main shooty units at deployment.

Remember that if he's deep striking outside of flaming range, you've got the first round of fire before he can start trying to hurt you. Also, he has to stay in coherency and depending on the Run roll (if he even uses this) he may be exceptionally vulnerable to Blast fire and templates of your own.

If you don't like the idea of the Grey Knight allies but don't mind allies in general, try Imperial Guard. Take a cheap HQ and a Platoon with 30 or so meatshields, a couple of Special Weapon squads with flamers so you can use his trick against him, and a couple of Heavy Weapon squads with Mortars to really ruin his day. With 30 men set up to take full advantage of coherency, it'll be practically impossible for his flamers to chew their way through before your sheer weight of fire takes them out.

For what it's worth, from what you've mentioned, the Death Company are going to be exceptionally poor against the Flamer list. The Assault Terminators are good at mopping up a unit after they've been beaten down by fire - 3d3 or 4d3 auto hits sounds bad, but 4d3 hits is an average of 8 hits, of which 4 wound and then you fail the armour save on one or maybe two if you're unlucky. Your remaining Termies will then proceed to pound the Flamers to a fine warpdust.

One of my friends does something very similar. Flamers really are too damn good with this update.

My way of countering them? Bubble wrap yourself with a fodder unit. He either drops down, flames them, then you retaliate with mass firepower (rapid fire bolters are very good here); or he drops farther away, in which case you still have your bubble wrap. In the assault phase, charge the flamers with your fodder unit, and he will be forced to overwatch that unit. Then charge with your heavier assault unit - he can't overwatch.

EDIT:
Also, remember how deepstriking works. He has to place his models in a circle - base to base - around the first model. This means he can ONLY use the flamers that don't go over his own unit. Can't have your own guys under your template!

Aelyn wrote:

The Assault Terminators are good at mopping up a unit after they've been beaten down by fire - 3d3 or 4d3 auto hits sounds bad, but 4d3 hits is an average of 8 hits, of which 4 wound and then you fail the armour save on one or maybe two if you're unlucky. Your remaining Termies will then proceed to pound the Flamers to a fine warpdust.

you can only overwatch once. So charge the flamers first with a depleted squad, 1-2 marines, hell even 3-4 if you have to. They will die but then when the assault terminators charge you wont lose any and all his flamers will die.

 Exergy wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

The Assault Terminators are good at mopping up a unit after they've been beaten down by fire - 3d3 or 4d3 auto hits sounds bad, but 4d3 hits is an average of 8 hits, of which 4 wound and then you fail the armour save on one or maybe two if you're unlucky. Your remaining Termies will then proceed to pound the Flamers to a fine warpdust.

you can only overwatch once. So charge the flamers first with a depleted squad, 1-2 marines, hell even 3-4 if you have to. They will die but then when the assault terminators charge you wont lose any and all his flamers will die.

To expand the counter is essentially to go MSU.

 Exergy wrote:
you can only overwatch once. So charge the flamers first with a depleted squad, 1-2 marines, hell even 3-4 if you have to. They will die but then when the assault terminators charge you wont lose any and all his flamers will die.

This. The Terminators have a shot at taking saves so use them as a secondary charge-in unit. This should be easy enough if you keep your units close enough (which is tempting fate against templates, I know).
A couple of other things you can do:
1) take Sanguinary Guard, who will also get a save but are faster and will still mince them in combat.
2) take Priests with Storm Shields, to hopefully prolong their lifespan - the FNP bubbles will keep your troops alive, Termies and SG included. Don't forget that Death Company also have FNP as standard.
3) abuse the Stormravens in zoom mode. Flamers can't attack them as they can't snap-shot templates, and you're likely to have the benefit of bringing it on once you know where the Flamers are.
4) try Vanguard - as they can charge on the turn they arrive, they only need one survivor to lock the unit in combat and allow your other troops to charge without Overwatch. You'll need a big unit for Flamers as a target, though, which would be expensive.

2 5 man Strike Squads and a Divination Inquisitor will provide all the DS protection you need.

The enemy will be forced to DS over 12" away from your lines, and if he scatters to inside 12" he's in major trouble.


Alternativly replace the Inquisitor with Coteaz to make them die before they get to shoot.

You are playing a blood angels army: That's the problem in itself - you are bringing a paper to a scissor fight.

The only way I can fathom that can deal with such a list is a shooty list - something the BA has trouble with...

Have you tried a bolter-armed death company? Pelt them to death. I think the key is keeping them from deep striking at favorable positions.

There is really nothing wrong with your list, and tactics can only help you so much. There are just fights you cant win.

No offece intended to anyone, but you are incredibly naive if you think an allied detachment of only a handful of Grey Knight units is going to be asimple solution to 27 Flamers. Given that I've played against less Flamers with a full Grey Knight army I can say with confidence that is not a solution, only an aid, and at that, they kill the Grey Knights just as easily.

To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

Combat squads.

10 assault marines v 9 flamers. Flamers will average 18 shots from wall of death killing 9 assault marines. That's a big problem, unless you combat squad. Now damage is capped off at 5 marines. The remaining 5 marines can take on 9 flamers in cc once they get into cc. It also helps to detach ic from a squad when fighting flamers.

Msu armies with mobility and halfway decent tt can take flamers.

Here's What I'd do.
1) Take 2 blood ravens. He can't shoot them, they're tough to kill.
Take 2x10 scouts (vet with power fist) and 2x Furioso dreadnought with claws. Whoever doesn't get the overwatch will kill them. You could also toss in the priest if you feel lucky.

Spread out so that he can't hit the rest of your army at once.
Try and deploy in the top story of tall buildings. You can't fire flamers from the ground up that high.

It's a 815 point solution to a ~630 point problem, but you should come out of it ahead.

-Matt

On the turn after your flyers come in, go to hover mode and drop the dreadnoughts and infantry out. Have each pair assault a unit of flamers. He can only over watch once, and whoever he doesn't over-watch at is going to tear the unit apart.

As much as I hate the unit, Stormravens should work really well here. Take heavy bolters, TL assault cannons, and the Hurrican bolter upgrade and just unleash hell. These things can throw out a ton of shots and the flamers just have to take it. You cannot use flamer template against flyers. It sounds like he has very little that might even be able to deal with flyers in the first place.

Do what i did to kill a large block of them. Send typhus at them with nurgle cultist. I cast the malediction to give them gets hot before charging. That helped stop the damage some and then the cultist hit them and eventually wiped them out.

20 man cultist squad of nurgle 130pts
typhus 230
360 pts is steep but

the squad did it easily and really stopped my opponents power squads. I had a zombie squad charge his turbo boosting screamers and locked them up for the game. Solution get them into combat with something that doesnt care about ap2.

The best thing to do before taking anything else is to spread your forces and make the most of unit coherency. You make it so there's less under the template and less spaces for them to drop in easy next to your guys. A flame template also happens to only be 8", and while it is usually over looked they do have the same basic shooting ability that the Horrors have by default as well. So they can still fire at fliers probably, but it'd be like trying to shoot it down with a bolter.

You need to redesign your army if possible. Bring an assault army against a flamer-heavy daemons list and 9 out of 10 games, you'd probably lose.

How you kill flamers is by shooting them to death. You need to add a lot of shooting to your army if you want to take on that army and win on a consistent basis (or at least more than you are currently doing).



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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No offece intended to anyone, but you are incredibly naive if you think an allied detachment of only a handful of Grey Knight units is going to be asimple solution to 27 Flamers. Given that I've played against less Flamers with a full Grey Knight army I can say with confidence that is not a solution, only an aid, and at that, they kill the Grey Knights just as easily.

To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

I played against 44 flamers with my crons! I actually let him take 2200pts of daemons to my 2K necrons.

Here's a little trick against the flamers and you can do it with almost any army (I mean that the same concept applies to other armies).

Before assaulting them, I split up my destroyer lord from my wraiths. I then charge my destroyer lord first. Naturally he dies....but I don't care because he's equipped with a res orb. Then the wraiths can charge in overwatch-free and my d-lord has a 50% chance to get back up.

With other armies, you need a cheap sacrificial unit to make the charge first. After that unit eats the overwatch, then you charge in your hammer unit.


Oh....and it also helped that backing up my wraiths were 4 flyers and 3 annihilation barges.

Where to start?

For one, Blood Angels will ALWAYS be gimped vs Flamers. Unfortunately the lack of bolters really, really hurts you. Lascannons, Missiles and even Riflemen aren't particularly good options because none of them particularly excel at killing light infantry.

Grey Knight detachments aren't the auto-fix that many are making them out to be. For one, warp quake only helps you if you go first (there is also some decreased effectiveness with the ability to pre-measure). Otherwise you are still pretty much at the mercy of the Flamers. Secondly 10 Strikers with 2 Psycannons will only kill 4-5 Flamers, that simply isnt enough as even 2-3 Flamers can easily kill an entire squad of marines.

Sending fodder units in to absorb overwatch or having large, cheap screens are two of your very best options. I would recommend taking Coteaz, 10 Purifiers, 10 Strikes and a squad of max Henchmen, completely plain. This gives you an effective screen with which you can protect the rest of your army and gain more turns of shooting.

As suggested by others, I would also take as few upgrades as possible so as to maximize how many bodies you have on the table!

Does your friend also run screamers and FMCs? Because that is when the flamers get really brutal. New Daemons are borderline broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
As much as I hate the unit, Stormravens should work really well here. Take heavy bolters, TL assault cannons, and the Hurrican bolter upgrade and just unleash hell. These things can throw out a ton of shots and the flamers just have to take it. You cannot use flamer template against flyers. It sounds like he has very little that might even be able to deal with flyers in the first place.

Not a good idea, that storm raven only deals 9-10 wounds resulting in only a few dead flamers. The Raven doesn't come in till turn 2 at the earliest and it also will be mercy to restricted movement abilities due to the nature of fliers. It also costs an INSANE amount of points to take that set-up. They will never really make their points back against a Daemon list.

What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

T4, W2, 5++ jump infantry. Template weapon that glances or wounds on 4+ with no cover or armour saves.

All CD have eternal warrior as well.

Ah.

I was right. They ARE horrible. I'm glad no-one in my area plays daemons.

i would say that long range Dakka and MSU are going to be your best option then. The vindicator idea coudl still work to whittle to squads numbers and ablative woudns down.

Maybe it's a case of take an anti-necron standpoint on it - set up crossfires and concentrate on one squad at a time. kill the whoel squad, then move on to the next. They've basically got a 5+ save to everything so they're not unkillable.

With three squad if you employed the multi-chareg optiona bove (use a small/cheap squad to soak up the overwatch then your Termeis make warp-paste) - that's 33% of the danger gone.

I think you would be best mixing up a lot of the previous suggestions - multi-charge, MSU and spread the army out more to try and force mishaps.

you dont seem to actually want tactics. they're good, yeah. Not many deamon troops are, so they get one close range fire support boosted unit.

SW- prevent deep striking (raven thing) and engage at range, bolters and assault cannons.
GK- same. Psybolts.

New Chaos has a "no overwatch shot" dirge caster on vehicles, if you can a chaos detachment.

Just keep in mind the save and the toughness are the achilles heel here. If you can't exploit them then you will probably get aced. It's not unbeatable though, and you're going at it with one of the worst armies to counter act it. BA is close in low model count armor and toughness troops, which template auto wounders are built to eat. Clearly your frustrated, but if you CAN get over on em, you will have done it with THE WORST army to try and counter deamons with. Think of these games as running with ankle weights.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No offece intended to anyone, but you are incredibly naive if you think an allied detachment of only a handful of Grey Knight units is going to be asimple solution to 27 Flamers. Given that I've played against less Flamers with a full Grey Knight army I can say with confidence that is not a solution, only an aid, and at that, they kill the Grey Knights just as easily.

To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

Finally, someone who knows what he is talking about.


Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with your army. But you may need to tailor your list to fight 27 flamers. And even then, it would still be a pretty longshot with blood angels.

I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

 samuele999 wrote:
assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

 Jihallah wrote:
More boots, lets shiny special boots?

Deathcompany- You are throwing T4 3+ save models at them, with melee weapons i bet. MORE EXPENSIVE THAN YOUR AVERAGE MARINE.

You need more boots, lets shiny boots. Your assault terminators are 200p of nothing against the flamers. Hold them in reserve unless you want to get slapped by lots of flamer templates.

try:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
To the OP, the key to beating Flamers is two fold; disrupt their drops and throw fodder first on the charge. Also, don't be put off by the T4 2 wound thing; they still only have a 5++, it really is like killing an Ork horde when it comes to shooting them. In the end however, Blood Angels being what they are are going to struggle against them. Employ your Ravens to full effect and play them carefully as they are the one thing he can't get from you.

Also- look up spreading out to avoid templates. What shooting do the daemons have that ignore your armor? not much at all. You don't need to hug cover, so spread out to avoid template pain.

One thing as a daemon player- It is hard to deepstrike and be able to hit someone with a template if they aren't guided down. daemons cannot guide themselves without a skyshield pad, and if they do have one- stay away from the skyshield to avoid drop+flame. You should have a turn to pump shots into them. You need to put as many bullets into that mob of flamers before they hit you. How do you put more bullets into them?

More Boots. Mo' boots means Mo' bullets and Mo' bodies to let the force as a whole shrug off the deaths that will happen from flaming.
It's like a warcraft or RTS game with the resources- not "You require more Vespene Gas", its "You require more Boots"

-edit- don't have a BA codex, but couldn't you pump out MSU ass marines with HB razorbacks? seems a cheap way of getting Mo' firepower on the cheap

TanKoL wrote:
I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

The WD update with the chariot changed them and screamers.

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Unless it changed, all deamons are EW, which means no insta-pop.
I have a friend using that exact tactic, with the new tzeentch disks (which are terrifingly good...) as a bonus.

A few tricks :
- You cannot be flamed if you are already in melee - that means get your melee units in melee ASAP, even if its not flamers
- Vehicules are resilient against flamers - i specificaly think about a LR, which is imprevious to flamers (beware of screamers though!). Crusader and its high volume of fire comes to mind
- As other said, a good tactic is volume of fire. Get more boots on the ground. I'd say drop the 2 SR and one of the terminator squad, get some sterguards or even a regular tac squad.
- Use wisely the first 2 turns, when your enemy is largely outnumbered (general daemon trick though)
- max out your melee squads, the OW can only kill that much MEQs. You need to get a few guys in combat just to lock down the flamers. Once that's done, they're toast.

I use PM to great effect considering their resilience. You can have similar toughness with blood priests (or whatever your chaplains/apothecary/FNP guys are called), can't you?

 Seb wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Unless it changed, all deamons are EW, which means no insta-pop.
I have a friend using that exact tactic, with the new tzeentch disks (which are terrifingly good...) as a bonus.

A few tricks :
- You cannot be flamed if you are already in melee - that means get your melee units in melee ASAP, even if its not flamers
- Vehicules are resilient against flamers - i specificaly think about a LR, which is imprevious to flamers (beware of screamers though!). Crusader and its high volume of fire comes to mind
- As other said, a good tactic is volume of fire. Get more boots on the ground. I'd say drop the 2 SR and one of the terminator squad, get some sterguards or even a regular tac squad.
- Use wisely the first 2 turns, when your enemy is largely outnumbered (general daemon trick though)
- max out your melee squads, the OW can only kill that much MEQs. You need to get a few guys in combat just to lock down the flamers. Once that's done, they're toast.

I use PM to great effect considering their resilience. You can have similar toughness with blood priests (or whatever your chaplains/apothecary/FNP guys are called), can't you?

Vehicles resiliant vs flamers? They can kill a land raider as easily as anything else. Every other hit is an auto-glance. So they remove all your hull points rather quickly. The only thing safe from them is a zooming flyer. Land raiders are only more resiliant vs screamers, who still have a shot at penning it with a 10+ on 2d6.

How about MSU?

5man assault squad with flamer (fighting fire with fire) and a razorback with TL heavybolter. Around 120p or something.
The 9 flamers will pop a razorback without any problems, then what? Should they assault the five marines?
With those small 5 man squads you spread out the damage.
He can use his fancy 9 flamer squad to kill either one Razorback or 5 marines per turn.

When you decide to charge, use two units at the same time. Take a damaged squad and go first.
The first squad will whipe but then its safe to go in with the second squad. And with some luck you will keep them locked in combat.

Also as someone else said, they are T4 and 5++, so they are basicly two orcs vs small arms fire. Just pump them full of bolter fire and they will die.
Dont forget to focus fire, as even 2-3 flamers are deadly. You must kill all of them in the squad.

As allied I would recomend guard. Those guardsmen die just as easy as marines to flamers. Use them to bubblewrap and first assault the flamers.

And hope that the deamons will get a new codex in the near future.

I played against my brother last night and he used daemons against me for the first time. I know exactly what you mean with your flamer problem. I was put off at first by the T4 2 wounds, and didn't focus fire on the Flamers or his screamers, but when I decided to finaly bite the bullet and start charging in, I started to focus fire to soften the screamers up. Half the unit died to massed small arms fire both times, and whatever squad was locked in combat with his screamers was immune to flamers. Granted I'm playing Chaos Marines, which isn't Blood Angels, but the principle is the same. Massed small arms fire and focused heavy weapons fire from the start. Take some Heavy Bolters. 4 of them put out enough wounds to worry anything in an all comers list and should get a few turns of shooting in. They're not good in cc, so if he starts with 9 try to gun down 5 or 6 and then get stuck in. They're fearless so you can slowly hack through them, being protected yourself.

Like I said you need to use multiple units...one to sacrifice and one to put in the smack down. Combat squad everything.

Lol... Just found this online.... I am the daemon player mentioned... ( Jevans )
Btw I just bought 27 more flamers today...
Yep, that's 54 flamers....
... I am such a good friend...

Just tell him 27 flamers is ballocks and you won't play his nonsense. There's no real way to stop it, short of massing firepower and hoping for the best.

For all you thinking I am unsporting player... I am actually not... I still to this date have only won one or two games against Sam, and this is my answer to that... Sam is a really good player, and even with this really cheesy list, he manages to beat me most times...

...however 54 flamers create an entirely different problem...

To be Honest I think you are an amazing friend... I wish i had friends like you

 n0t_u wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

The WD update with the chariot changed them and screamers.

They really need to stop putting rules in WD. I have my brb behind me and I was about to accuse the daemon player of cheating.

 CuddlySquig wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
I have a question that might seem stupid ... either that or my Codex : Demons is bugged ...
Where do you see flamers with W 2 ? mine show A2 but W1 .... so no big deal punching them full of bullets ...
edit : and Sv 4+ in my book ...

The WD update with the chariot changed them and screamers.

They really need to stop putting rules in WD. I have my brb behind me and I was about to accuse the daemon player of cheating.

Though I do like getting updated rules in the WD this is a problem I'm seeing a lot lately. I just saw someone recently, a new player to 40k have no idea what was going on when everyone was telling him that he was wrong about his flamers even though he had the codex open right in front of him.

It's not just the new players either, a few weeks ago at a tournament 3 out of 5 games I had to tell my obviously experienced opponents that I am not playing my SoB wrong when they kept reciting old rules.

Stay Spread out, use terrain to your advantage. Remember if they can't see you they can't hurt you. Make him "thread the needle"

Layer squads and remember he has to hit the most of a squad IIRC use stuff like this to your advantage.

Might be an idea to play 1999+1 opposed to 2k with a double FoC ^^

54 fits in one FoC.

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

Just Bolter drill him to death bud, if your not gunna use grey knights you gotta take the punch and deliver it three times as hard

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

Think they are referring to the dual force org at 2000 points.

I use 1 unit of 6-9 flamers and 1 unit of 6 screamers. With a Daemon update on the horizon, I would not drop 200 bucks on flamers that may get nerfed into oblivion in a month or two.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

I thought they were Troops. My bad.

Do they drive you to drink?

 samuele999 wrote:
I don't think people grasp how flamers are so good, vehicles will die. bang landraider, baal preadtor, whatever, they have only got to get within 8 inches when they deepstrike and they will wipe your hull points clean.. marines of any type don't stand a chance 3+ armor s rubbish against templates that give you no armor and cover. they wound on 4+. they have 2 wounds toughness 4, inv of 5+, they are jet infantry and only cost 23 or 26 points. explain what a marine player does, how he gets the firepower to destroy 27 flamers in one, or even if you get the chance as he will have deepstriked and flammed half your army to death. assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.

I agree with Jihallah. Your friend covers the board in Flamers? Cover the board with marines. He can get 27 flamers, you can get 100 marines in 1600 points.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
54 fits in one FoC.

Flamers are max squads of 9
elite slots
so max 27

WD update

I thought they were Troops. My bad.

All good, had to doublecheck the update to see squad size ^^

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Everything in Codex: Daemons of Chaos has eternal warrior. EVERYTHING. Instant death is useless against them (apart from wounding on a 2+, although GK I believe have a trick which bypasses EW on Daemons).

Flamers are stupid good. Deepstriking templates that ignore most armor means pretty much the turn they arrive they will take out whatever units they want. Not sure why they made em so good I have had a single unit of them mess me up bad can't imagine going against 3. Best I can suggest is use your flyers maybe guard allies for some more. Other than that some of the basics spread your units out to the max so less fit under a template. Arrange your units so there is very limited options for him to deepstrike and have cheap inexpensive units as his only targets where he can (this is hard to do and I can see with a space marine dex how it would be even harder). Keep some guys in stormravens until after those suckers come in so you get to deploy around him rather than the other way around. I feel for you though having gone against them I hate flamers.

Edit: Something else I thought of maybe the skyshiled landing pad might help it confers 4+ invul not cover to those on top of it and putting some heavy fire power on it might help allot.

Orks, nids, and guard give my flamers the greatest challenge.

Shoota boys die as easy as space marines to flame templates, pack a lot of dakka, and are cheap enough to take wall of death hits. Sure the alternate 3 shots at BS4 S4 ap4 shots also hurt orks well, but shootas really hurt flamers.

With nids it's all about skill. 2 small units of gaunts charging flamers is pretty much doom for the flamer. Nids do very well in shooting and CC when it comes to stripping t4 models of wounds.

IG are dirt cheap and do well at plinking away at flamers, but once again it's all about skill. Flashl ights, griffons, multi lasers, and heavy flamers all do a good job at wracking up wounds on units of flamers.

The deadliest thing I found about flamers is their speed. They look good on paper, but won't perform up to expectations without skillful maneuvering, but when used right they are even better than they look on paper.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Do they drive you to drink?

 samuele999 wrote:
I don't think people grasp how flamers are so good, vehicles will die. bang landraider, baal preadtor, whatever, they have only got to get within 8 inches when they deepstrike and they will wipe your hull points clean.. marines of any type don't stand a chance 3+ armor s rubbish against templates that give you no armor and cover. they wound on 4+. they have 2 wounds toughness 4, inv of 5+, they are jet infantry and only cost 23 or 26 points. explain what a marine player does, how he gets the firepower to destroy 27 flamers in one, or even if you get the chance as he will have deepstriked and flammed half your army to death. assault is pointless when over-watch generates d3 hits per model. I have tried my death company, I have tried stormravens, i have tried terminators with stromshelds. nothing seems to work for me.

I agree with Jihallah. Your friend covers the board in Flamers? Cover the board with marines. He can get 27 flamers, you can get 100 marines in 1600 points.

You can never have enough boots!

Ya, although I prefer my Knights to Blood Angels I have a friend who has a massive army of them and I have learned to respect their power as well. I'd recommend first beefing up your death company. You can have a squad of 30 with feel no pain; Imagine what two of those squads could do on the ground with a 10 man thunder hammer storm shield squad backing them up. Flamers may kill a lot, but what is left should wipe them out and feel no pain is better than nothing which is what a GK Strike squads would get. To be effective with Warp Quake you need to bring mostly or all Grey Knights to try to spread it around to make the most use of it. Otherwise, ya Storm Ravens don't come in till turn 2+, but that is one less turn your weaker unit(s) inside take fire; and when it comes in zooming you can still deploy the units and they in turn can fire with precision as your opponent literally has to come to you with a Deamons codex or hold them inside and shoot them to death while you bide your time and drop onto the objective(s) turn 5.

Keep your units big, dig in and wait for the reinforcements and by then your opponent will be exposed and you'll have the tactical advantage.

9 flamers will, on average cause 9 wounds with no armor save when you assault them.

A unit like TH/SS terminators will then lose 3 of them then successfully tie up the flamers for the rest of the game.

Another option is to assault with an already damaged unit, using up the overwatch, then assault with another squad.

If you're going second you can always reserve your entire list.

He will be forced to drop in with his first wave (which you know he has to roll for right?). You can then come on in a position to take maximum advantage. Take an allied detachment which aids reserve manipulation for more reliability if you like.

You should be using a shooting list, or if you must be assault based have sacrificial units to absorb overwatch. The flamers will die easily to torrent firepower. Seriously, 2 wounds at toughness 4 with a 5+ save isn't much to crow about.

Pack your army with volume of firepower; baals, storm ravens, land speeders, tactical marines, devastators, whatever you like as long as it shoots a lot. You out range him and have greater mobility.

 rems01 wrote:
If you're going second you can always reserve your entire list.

Welcome to 6th edition where not only is this not always possible, it will guarantee a loss in many codexes.

The answer is simple. Create a bubble. If he is spending a significant amount of points into that army pick out a unit/s that cost the the equal or even better, a lot less! Choose a unit which you think will deal poorly with the very army your facing and deploy them in a half-circle with 2" in between every single one. Now with 6th and premeasuring measure carefully and make sure they cant jump over your bubble-unit. Behind ur meatwall you will place your counter units which in next round will charge out and deal with them. Combat is the weakness of the flamers of tzeenth(basically every tzeenth unit share this weakness) You dont need your enitre army, just a unit to tie them up for some round and eventually defeat them having in mind how horrible the flamers are in combat.

Horrible in Close Combat yes, but they have a 4+ invul as well. I've been stuck in CC with Pink Horrors for three turns because they refuse to die or fall back.

The Bubble is a good idea, that is why I am pro 30 man squads. Even if they come in and and kill 9 Death Company, they are then in rapid fire range of the other 21. The opponent gets to chose who they fire over-watch at as you declare your assaults before all assault moves are made if memory serves me. One good thing about playing Deamons is they have to come to you. Good spacing as well as large squads should keep your squads alive as well as catch the flamers in a crossfire.

Flamers have a 5++ save now.

You do not declare all assaults at once - you do them in order. That means you can put a bait unit out there.

I would rather run small units against flamers than large ones - it can limit the damage at least. Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Daemons have to come to you, but unlike other foot armies they can get there Turn 1 with a DS then eat a turn of shooting before being right there. That is assuming the alpha strike from Flamers and Screamers do not decimate your ability to fight back.

In my experience the above is exactly what usually happens.

I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!

Lasguns for the win.

 Tomb King wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!

Lasguns for the win.

whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

That's still better than anything I could do with Orks for the same points. 30 Shoota boyz with 3 Big Shootas will only average 7 unsaved wounds on a unit of Flamers... and get toasted in return. However, getting all these guardsmen in range is nigh impossible, and imo that's the real problem.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've been playing with 18 flamers + 8 crushers for a while now.
(The crushers are there to get my flamers out of a jam if their assaulted)

 calypso2ts wrote:
Better yet get in a vehicles and try to stay safe from the flamers.

Let me tell you, this bit of advise gives me the biggest problems. I have to spend a full turn blowing up the rhino before I can get to the chewy nuggets inside.

When shooting at the flamers, you need to really focus fire. One squad of GH with 2 PGs will do ~5.03 wounds to the flamer squad. That's great when there are only 3 flamers, but if your facing 9 its nowhere nearly enough. You will need to focus a lot of fire to kill them.

The problem is that even 2-3 flamers can be a significant threat. That's what makes flamers so good. Even if most of them get shot up, a few can still clear a squad off an objective.

First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire!

Lasguns for the win.

whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

50 man blob is a whole 250pts. I think that would be a nice easy trade.

Nym wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
whats that 150 shots, 75 hits, 25 wounds, 8 saves, 17 wounds on the flamers. Thats with a 50 man blob, that's managed to essentially kill 1 squad.

That's still better than anything I could do with Orks for the same points. 30 Shoota boyz with 3 Big Shootas will only average 7 unsaved wounds on a unit of Flamers... and get toasted in return. However, getting all these guardsmen in range is nigh impossible, and imo that's the real problem.

The thing about flamers is they deep strike near you.

Everyone is talking like flamers are entering on their own. Unfortunately you will get assaulted by both flamers and screamers and that is the problem. Daemon lists have been winning lately even without over spamming flamers. You only need about 15 of them and 18 screamers to table a lot of opponents in five turns. Blobs are the best defense backed up by template weapons.

What's even scarier is 26 flamers in 1000pts...
With 9 screamers in there for support...

TWC can take overwatch hits on SS

TH/SS termes can take over watch hits.

Worst case scenario is multi wound models such as wraiths, tyranid warriors, ogryns, grotesques, and chaos spawn.

Worst of the worst is definitely wraiths. 3++ invo still works, and S6 rending attacks are still S6 v T4.

Flamers are a MEQ problem. MEQ is still competitive, it's just no longer the meta in 6th. Once the meta realizes that MEQ are no longer the meta the meta will be very diversified.

RegalPhantom wrote:
Everything in Codex: Daemons of Chaos has eternal warrior. EVERYTHING. Instant death is useless against them (apart from wounding on a 2+, although GK I believe have a trick which bypasses EW on Daemons).

The Nemesis weapons (if that's what you're referring to) don't bypass EW per say. They force an additional check, the Daemon model has to fail a Ld check, but is still immune to the Force Weapon instant death portion.

I've had opponents try to tell me that if a Daemon is hit by a Nemesis Force Weapon it can suffer instant death, as if the weapon strips Eternal Warrior from the model. It doesn't quite work that way.

Flamers are a MEQ problem. MEQ is still competitive, it's just no longer the meta in 6th. Once the meta realizes that MEQ are no longer the meta the meta will be very diversified.

Flamers are a Meq and Teq problem. They also hurt hordes to a degree. You will see mostly allied Meq lists still. Whatever flamers do not finish off can be handled by screamers. Honestly - I play daemons with CSm allies. I stopped playing my primary list because it was not fun for a lot of other players. Sure it can be beaten - but you need blobs not MSU squads to bubblewrap your main damage producing squads. Vehicles also help a lot. Unfortunately or fortunately for those that play a lot of screamer/flamer, those are not the most common lists now. I have beat GK with warp quake many times. A mech GK list with allies (IG or Necrons) is a whole other matter. They can take on my list. Rune priest SW with IG can take on my list. Still overall daemons are proving quite competitive now since players realized that allies shore up almost all their weaknesses and that FMC heavy lists are one shot affairs easily taken out. I cut down on my flamers of late ... played this list a few days ago ...

1 Chaos Lord; Mark of Khorne; Juggernaut; Axe of Blinding Fury; VotlW; Gift of Mutation; Sigil of Corruption 180
1 Lord of Change; Mastery of Sorcery 260
6 Flamers of Tzeentch 138
20 Cultists; 2 Flamers 100
3x 5 Plaguemarines; 2 Plasmaguns; Melatbomb 465
6 Plaguebearers of Nurgle 90
5 Chaos Spawn; Mark of Khorne 160
9 Screamers of Tzeentch 225
2x 5 Havocs; 4 Autocannons 230
2 Obliterators; Mark of Nurgle 152

Even only six flamers and nine screamers were enough to cause my opponent some major headaches. The list is not even optimized - it was an attempt to tone down ( I was playing daemons as the primary force with CSM detachment so I had two units of flamers and two of screamers). It still ran over a GK list in five turns. He just did not have enough models or vehicles on the table.

Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

 calypso2ts wrote:
Flamers have a 5++ save now.

Do they? I thought that the German FAQ said that their Daemon special rule refers to the one in the Chaos Daemons Codex and not the rulebook? The one in the Codex says nothing about a save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Feel No Pain wrote:
Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

Fine, charge the Flamers with your Bikes, they each get D3 hits that kill you on 4s. How many bikes do you plan on charging in to how many flamers?

Never attack flamers with elite units. You shoot flamers down or try and bog them down with an expendable large squad. .

Feel No Pain wrote:
Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

yep, please lock my flamers in CC as they get to WoD you first.

Demons sadly ALL have eternal warrior...so no insta-gibbing

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Feel No Pain wrote:
Simple Formula=

Fast moving assualt squad example, Bikes.

Chase them and lock them in combat.

yep, please lock my flamers in CC as they get to WoD you first.

Thats why you throw a expendable unit in their first then hit them hard with something else.

I am going to try template spam again demons this weekend, plus a skyshield for a 4++ save and some FNP good ness, Against flamer spam I would know what to do though, could wipe his troops out but then you will most probably lose your troops in the process. I

eternal warriors cheif best way to figure out how to kill flamers it to realize how many wounds you will need to inflict upon them in shooting to kill them for a unit of 9 thats 18 wounds you will have to cause. inceneraters work great because you will wound on i think 2 maybe 3 either way deepstriking leaves um bunched up so them bunched up 4 inceneraters will do at least 3 wounds a per dude unless he rolls really really well they will all die. thats the fastest way to kill um other then that castle up with your warp quakes and shoot the piss out of them with weapons that will wound


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and if your gonna get into assault with them charge with 12 points of henchmen first or a unit thats all ready been badly damaged and once your in they will die

A Stormraven full of GK with a expendable Dread on the back to take the Overwatch. If the Flamers don't Overwatch the Dread he locks them, if they do he dies but you can smash the remaining Flamers with the GK. You should always get the charge from the Stormraven by Zooming in from Reserves and then Assaulting the next turn. If the Flamers run from you instead then you took them out of the game anyway. If you are not in a position to charge then don't Glide that turn and you are safe from all templates anyway. Depending on the mission the Flamers can be made useless, in Purge just fly around and kill the other stuff, in objective missions just kill the scoring units and last turn drop on the objectives or play the draw and win on Linebreaker/Kill Warlord/First Blood points.

Edit: As was stated already, with BA you are hosed. My favorite army to see with my Daemons even before the broken Flamer changes was MEQ without transports.

Hi! I am finally back! I have been on holiday to beadle and have come back to find this massive post.
1. Thank you everybody, you have all tried to at least help me!
2. Unfortunately, I am not rich!!!!! it drives me up the wall, war-hammer is quite expensive and i cant afford to revamp an entire army. I am willing to spend some money on some good units, but i can just build a whole new army, i have to alter my blood-angels lists! I do appreciate all the help people, but saying, use imperial guard, or use nids or whaterver, is not what i want to do!
3. He does not just spam flammers, but FMC and screamers.
4. He is now buying helldrakes to demolish my stormravens
5. I am considering some grey knights.
6. I like paladins. Yes paladins - 1 paladins with a nemisis warding stave can take all the overwatch of a flamer squad and still survive, if they have feel no pain. on average they will hit 18 times and wound 9. he has two wounds and a 2+ inv! This is because over-watch is part of the assault phase. ( i hope this is correct or am i being stupid?
8 I like using combat squads, it is a good idea, but when victory points are so crucial in 6th edition, they are very easy to give away.
9. I use 10 men death company with bolters and no jumpacks.
10. razor back spam, is a pet hate, it is well, abusing war-hammer and incredibly unfriendly.
11. Thanks again for all your help, i am sorry if i have not mentioned all of your ideas, but there was quite a lot! also this is not a rant, but i am annoyed with GW for making flammers, well a bit too good in my eyes.
12. I think its going to be a few grey knights, with plenty of boots, i have well over 70 tactical marines and see what that does, although he will probably resort to his 60 blood-letters again. And i will consider using a suicide unit to get the charge in as well.

 schadenfreude wrote:
TWC can take overwatch hits on SS

TH/SS termes can take over watch hits.

Worst case scenario is multi wound models such as wraiths, tyranid warriors, ogryns, grotesques, and chaos spawn.

Worst of the worst is definitely wraiths. 3++ invo still works, and S6 rending attacks are still S6 v T4.

Flamers are a MEQ problem. MEQ is still competitive, it's just no longer the meta in 6th. Once the meta realizes that MEQ are no longer the meta the meta will be very diversified.

razorwing flocks eat flamers for breakfast lunch and dinner.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Demons sadly ALL have eternal warrior...so no insta-gibbing

Slight correction.

Daemons in the Daemon Codex all have EW.

Just being a Daemon doesn't make you have EW.

Still...

30 Death Company and with a Librarian you can give them telekinetic dome so they have a 5++ and Feel no pain. Better than most everything gets against flamers. If you roll Divination on your librarian you can end up with a 4++ and feel no pain on that squad and that's better than anything gets to my knowledge (I wouldn't recommend it unless you have two mastery level two librarians so 1 with telekinetic dome is probably best); then the flamers are in rapid fire range and are toast and if there is 1 or 3 left you can charge them with the death company because they are Relentless.

I agree with you on the spending, but as long as you are resigned I'd recommend filling out your partial squads before going half squads of anything else.

 samuele999 wrote:


8 I like using combat squads, it is a good idea, but when victory points are so crucial in 6th edition, they are very easy to give away.

I thought this edition most of the missions were control points and only 1 in 6 was kill points. And I still think a sky shield landing pad could possibly mess up his day.

Do Skyshields give a 4++ save?

 samuele999 wrote:
6. I like paladins. Yes paladins - 1 paladins with a nemisis warding stave can take all the overwatch of a flamer squad and still survive, if they have feel no pain. on average they will hit 18 times and wound 9. he has two wounds and a 2+ inv! This is because over-watch is part of the assault phase. ( i hope this is correct or am i being stupid?

Warding Staves give a 2+ versus wounds caused in close combat. Overwatch is not wounds caused in close combat (yes, it's in the assault phase but if you've declared a charge you cannot be in close combat).

Doesn't work

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
Do Skyshields give a 4++ save?

Yes 4+ invul save if the sides are up.

pepe5454 wrote:

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
Do Skyshields give a 4++ save?

Yes 4+ invul save if the sides are up.

Note its against shooting only.

I heavily agree samuele999 and with those suggesting gk ss and quisi, if he cant ds next to you, and they deepstrike in a circle, plasma cannon the freakin hell out of them, what that,s 9x 3 plasma cannon wounds, thats one unit of flmaers eeradicated. then the purifiers shooting at the other flamer squad, with the help of the rest of your other units that's 18 of 27 flamers killed, and now he has just 9 left. the problem is that he has 3 squads, 1 squad no problem.

Just tarpit the upper level so you cant get assault, the only issue would be if they are underneath it but then they cant shoot you, just concentrate fire on the rest of their army. Its mainly to protect my troops and devi's and thunderfires for the first turn or two, hopefully by them i would have inflicted enough wounds to kill off enough of their flamers to be able to spread my troops out. Only thing that worries me in CC would be the DP's and I plan on killing them with hyperios and storm raven to ground them then 8 krak missiles to take em out

pepe5454 wrote:

 samuele999 wrote:

8 I like using combat squads, it is a good idea, but when victory points are so crucial in 6th edition, they are very easy to give away.

I thought this edition most of the missions were control points and only 1 in 6 was kill points. And I still think a sky shield landing pad could possibly mess up his day.

I think he's talking about secondary objectives and how small units might make you more vulnerable to losing First Blood.

Yes, combat squads are a nightmare for first blood!

For first blood I would be more worried about light vehicles but ya I see the point there it's one reason I don't use truks with my orks any more.

Yeah they also are suffering under 6th edition.

Dezstiny wrote:
I heavily agree samuele999 and with those suggesting gk ss and quisi, if he cant ds next to you, and they deepstrike in a circle, plasma cannon the freakin hell out of them, what that,s 9x 3 plasma cannon wounds, thats one unit of flmaers eeradicated. then the purifiers shooting at the other flamer squad, with the help of the rest of your other units that's 18 of 27 flamers killed, and now he has just 9 left. the problem is that he has 3 squads, 1 squad no problem.

Where do you buy these blessed plasma cannons that always hit, always wound, and always make the enemy fail their save? I could use a squad of those!

You really don't need to ally in grey knights to beat the flamer/screamer combo. There are plenty of usefull things in the blood angel's codex that can help you out. One of the most important things though is how you deploy your army.

A few things that will help

1.) Corbula, seriously a 2+ feel no pain, use his re-roll and he can assault a unit of flamers by himself and not take a wound usually.

2.) Thunderhammer stormshield terminators, back up by a priest, a 3+ followed by a 5+ means you lose, on average 2 terminators to a flamer overwatch.

3.) Your deployment. When putting your units on the table you need to maximize your coherency and put them vertical not horizontal on the table. Remember you can only kill what your guns have range to so if your friend can only get 3 guys under his templates on the drop then he can only kill 3 guys.

4.) Against daemons combat squads are your friends.

5.) Storm Ravens are awesome for area denial. Instead of trying to guarantee yourself some shots use the to physically block off part of the table so that your opponent cannot jump in and flame you. Also use them to make it so that screamers have to make a long charge against you.

Warmaster wrote:




3.) Your deployment. When putting your units on the table you need to maximize your coherency and put them vertical not horizontal on the table. Remember you can only kill what your guns have range to so if your friend can only get 3 guys under his templates on the drop then he can only kill 3 guys.

If he can only get 3 guys under one template but he has 5 guys there with templates I am pretty sure he can kill up to 15 even if all 5 templates are hitting the same 3 guys. Unless the faq'd that and I didn't catch it.

pepe5454 wrote:

Warmaster wrote:




3.) Your deployment. When putting your units on the table you need to maximize your coherency and put them vertical not horizontal on the table. Remember you can only kill what your guns have range to so if your friend can only get 3 guys under his templates on the drop then he can only kill 3 guys.

If he can only get 3 guys under one template but he has 5 guys there with templates I am pretty sure he can kill up to 15 even if all 5 templates are hitting the same 3 guys. Unless the faq'd that and I didn't catch it.

Pretty sure this is right, from what I was re-reading in the BGB.

Mmm Barbeque

I agree with the Aussie, you need more boots on the ground.

I know that this is not the best combo, but consider necrons. Perhaps 1 Destroyer Lord, 5x Warriors, 6x Wraiths (with some whip coils) and 1 annihilation barge (if you've got spare points). Wraiths really don't care about flamers or screamers all that much. Even if they were to charge a unit of 9 flamers, overwatch would only average 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2 failed invuln's, 1 dead wraith.

Thanks for the necron point, but unfortunately i can't afford a new army and am unwilling to give up on my beloved ba.
I have 10 terminators with storm shields, but they die to easily - I'm very good at rolling 1's.
The template point is a very good point!
So, if he only gets 3 under his template, at max range, can he only kill 3. Basically if i had a squad of marines and he had flamers in front of them, and he could only reach some of them with his flame template , can he only kill the ones he can reach?

 samuele999 wrote:
Thanks for the necron point, but unfortunately i can't afford a new army and am unwilling to give up on my beloved ba.
I have 10 terminators with storm shields, but they die to easily - I'm very good at rolling 1's.
The template point is a very good point!
So, if he only gets 3 under his template, at max range, can he only kill 3. Basically if i had a squad of marines and he had flamers in front of them, and he could only reach some of them with his flame template , can he only kill the ones he can reach?

If it's just one flamer yes. but if it's a group you count the hits and wounds all at once so even if he could only reach 3 guys in a squad with the template he could deal many more wounds than that with a squad of flamers and so could wipe out the whole unit even though the others were out of range.

I thought in 6th edition you could only kill models that were in range of your weapons?
Although i don't have my rule book with me.

I dunno... What did we do in the game we played today? That seemed okay...

 samuele999 wrote:
I thought in 6th edition you could only kill models that were in range of your weapons?
Although i don't have my rule book with me.

Nope. As long as part of the unit started the shooting attack in range, the entire unit can be killed. Page 16 iirc.

rigeld2 wrote:

 samuele999 wrote:
I thought in 6th edition you could only kill models that were in range of your weapons?
Although i don't have my rule book with me.

Nope. As long as part of the unit started the shooting attack in range, the entire unit can be killed. Page 16 iirc.

Otherwise you would have a debacle with rapidfire.

What about flamer templates?

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What about flamer templates?

Rigeld just answered that part, two posts up.

Daemon Flamers rule the world! I was (un)fortunate to realize the true horror of the rules update the week of release during a tournament. I came on Dakka trying to explain the carnage and of course, most didn't get it and still don't get it. O well, If you can't beat 'em...

Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

Kevlar wrote:

 Seb wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Unless it changed, all deamons are EW, which means no insta-pop.
I have a friend using that exact tactic, with the new tzeentch disks (which are terrifingly good...) as a bonus.

A few tricks :
- You cannot be flamed if you are already in melee - that means get your melee units in melee ASAP, even if its not flamers
- Vehicules are resilient against flamers - i specificaly think about a LR, which is imprevious to flamers (beware of screamers though!). Crusader and its high volume of fire comes to mind
- As other said, a good tactic is volume of fire. Get more boots on the ground. I'd say drop the 2 SR and one of the terminator squad, get some sterguards or even a regular tac squad.
- Use wisely the first 2 turns, when your enemy is largely outnumbered (general daemon trick though)
- max out your melee squads, the OW can only kill that much MEQs. You need to get a few guys in combat just to lock down the flamers. Once that's done, they're toast.

I use PM to great effect considering their resilience. You can have similar toughness with blood priests (or whatever your chaplains/apothecary/FNP guys are called), can't you?

Vehicles resiliant vs flamers? They can kill a land raider as easily as anything else. Every other hit is an auto-glance. So they remove all your hull points rather quickly. The only thing safe from them is a zooming flyer. Land raiders are only more resiliant vs screamers, who still have a shot at penning it with a 10+ on 2d6.

Quick question from someone without a Chaos codex, but aren't the flamers S4? If so, how would they do anything to vehicles like the LR?

 whipthorn wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 Seb wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
What are Flamers?

Soudns like (i've never seen the rules) T4 Jump infantry with just a 5++ (but no armour save presumably).

Sounds like a job for a vindicator. BA Vindi are Fast so it coudl move and keep ot of range, drop a S10 pir plate of a DS squad of flamers (now that they are nicely bunched up) and they are inst-gibbed.

How are they killing vehicles with flamers?! They sound horrible!

Unless it changed, all deamons are EW, which means no insta-pop.
I have a friend using that exact tactic, with the new tzeentch disks (which are terrifingly good...) as a bonus.

A few tricks :
- You cannot be flamed if you are already in melee - that means get your melee units in melee ASAP, even if its not flamers
- Vehicules are resilient against flamers - i specificaly think about a LR, which is imprevious to flamers (beware of screamers though!). Crusader and its high volume of fire comes to mind
- As other said, a good tactic is volume of fire. Get more boots on the ground. I'd say drop the 2 SR and one of the terminator squad, get some sterguards or even a regular tac squad.
- Use wisely the first 2 turns, when your enemy is largely outnumbered (general daemon trick though)
- max out your melee squads, the OW can only kill that much MEQs. You need to get a few guys in combat just to lock down the flamers. Once that's done, they're toast.

I use PM to great effect considering their resilience. You can have similar toughness with blood priests (or whatever your chaplains/apothecary/FNP guys are called), can't you?

Vehicles resiliant vs flamers? They can kill a land raider as easily as anything else. Every other hit is an auto-glance. So they remove all your hull points rather quickly. The only thing safe from them is a zooming flyer. Land raiders are only more resiliant vs screamers, who still have a shot at penning it with a 10+ on 2d6.

Quick question from someone without a Chaos codex, but aren't the flamers S4? If so, how would they do anything to vehicles like the LR?

Ignore armor saves/glance on a 4+

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Quick question from someone without a Chaos codex, but aren't the flamers S4? If so, how would they do anything to vehicles like the LR?

Ignore armor saves/glance on a 4+

I suppose you could see if you could get him to let you use allies from the old Daemonhunters Codex and surprise the Flamers with the old 36"/S6/AP4/Heavy 3/Ignores Invulnerable saves psycannons, but that's a bit of a long shot.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I suppose you could see if you could get him to let you use allies from the old Daemonhunters Codex and surprise the Flamers with the old 36"/S6/AP4/Heavy 3/Ignores Invulnerable saves psycannons, but that's a bit of a long shot.

lol I was so glad those didn't make a comeback ^^

It boils down to two basic lines of reasoning. If you can't find a way to beat it via rules, then there has to be a solution tactically.

There was a thing on 3++ the other day that explained this whole "problem"

DarthDiggler wrote:
Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

The bastion is a bad idea. If a flame template touches a fire point everybody inside takes d6 hits. If 6 templates touch a fire point the unit will take 6d6 hits, averaging out to about 21 hits or 10.5 wounds no armor or cover.

The librarian and thunder fire are good ideas, and good for an all comers list. The tfc really punishes flamers if they choose to fire on the turn they deepstrike and remain clustered.

Null zone has been my bane when playing daemons. Going after the null zone librarian is always my top priority.

Only real safe place would be in a full 10 man squad of th/ss termies.

I know you are talking about your experience with Flamers, but what about screamers? Screamers with invisibility power have 2+ cover and are making every unit in close combat WS1. They have AP 2 and they have Armorbane. They also can fly over hordes to do amazing dammage to them. Getting "invisibility" is nothing certain, but with very cheap sorcerer (or two of them) level 3 you have a good chance.

Has anyone played against them? If your answer is "yes", what can you recommend to stop them?

How is it 2+ cover?

Screamers/Flamers dont really need invisibility IMHO. Its a big point investment to cast it in them, and their already durable enough.
(You need to ally in a lvl 2 psyker, and ally in the troops)

For those points you can just buy more flamers/screamers.

I agree

Unless you are playing a CSM list with allied daemons.

 schadenfreude wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

The bastion is a bad idea. If a flame template touches a fire point everybody inside takes d6 hits. If 6 templates touch a fire point the unit will take 6d6 hits, averaging out to about 21 hits or 10.5 wounds no armor or cover.

The librarian and thunder fire are good ideas, and good for an all comers list. The tfc really punishes flamers if they choose to fire on the turn they deepstrike and remain clustered.

Good point about being inside. What about sitting on top? Difficult to get flamer templates to touch the top of the bastion and the Libby can shoot the gun on top when needed.

 jy2 wrote:
Unless you are playing a CSM list with allied daemons.

This is the case

Flamers hit the top as normal... As it is oly 1 floor up...

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
How is it 2+ cover?

Jink+turbo-boost+Invisibility=2+ cover

Ah....

Jink is 5+, invisibility makes it 2+. No need for turbo boost.

Unless you have the vindicator well wrapped, they will kill it before it fires. If the player is good, you will struggle to do a lot to him with that vindy. Just saying...

Flamers are freaking awesome. Seriously.

GK should end them - stike squads to keep them out of flamer range on the deep strike and storm bolters and psycannons to shoot them to death.

Unless you can pump out > 21 wounds per squad, you are going to get flamed.

What do you mean by wrapped?

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What do you mean by wrapped?

Placing your infantry around your vehicles. In this case to stop the flamers from getting too close on the deep strike and wrecking the Vindicator.

 Rampage wrote:

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What do you mean by wrapped?

Placing your infantry around your vehicles. In this case to stop the flamers from getting too close on the deep strike and wrecking the Vindicator.

Fairly hard to do actually, especially if its a risky Daemons player. That said though I'd rather flame the squad anyway ^^

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

An'arkh'ad'nron wrote:
What do you mean by wrapped?

Placing your infantry around your vehicles. In this case to stop the flamers from getting too close on the deep strike and wrecking the Vindicator.

Fairly hard to do actually, especially if its a risky Daemons player. That said though I'd rather flame the squad anyway ^^

True, you're going to need one hell of a large block of infantry to stop the flame templates from not also hitting the vehicle assuming a direct hit. And even if you do have that huge block you're going to lose a lot of models.

 Rampage wrote:
True, you're going to need one hell of a large block of infantry to stop the flame templates from not also hitting the vehicle assuming a direct hit. And even if you do have that huge block you're going to lose a lot of models.

They're required to cover as much of the target unit as possible - so hitting the tank behind the unit isn't as easy as you think.
It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either - even assuming a direct hit on the Deep Strike.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Rampage wrote:
True, you're going to need one hell of a large block of infantry to stop the flame templates from not also hitting the vehicle assuming a direct hit. And even if you do have that huge block you're going to lose a lot of models.

They're required to cover as much of the target unit as possible - so hitting the tank behind the unit isn't as easy as you think.
It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either - even assuming a direct hit on the Deep Strike.

Well surely if you're close enough and firing from the front of the weapon then you'd hit the covering unit with a shorter width of the template and go through. Although I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up.

DarthDiggler wrote:
Null zone!!! Take a vanilla librarian and cast null zone. Next you need the volume of fire to take advantage of the null zone. Thunderfire cannon!!! Make your BA the allied attachment and take 2 Thunderfire cannons. Spread those cannons out far so if he drops flamers to deal with them, then the flamers will be out of the fight for a while. More mobile volume of fire. Attack bikes!!! Those are highly mobile and can shoot up flamers.

Now deploy the librarian in an impenetrable position (at least for flamers) the Bastion. Flamers can't hurt it and you get the null zone off from it. Any flamer drop that shoots will eat a ridiculous amount of damage from thin fire cannons, coupled with null zone should drop a squad in one turn. If they drop and run add in the firepower of 6 attack bikes that dish out 18 heavy Bolter shots and you should kill them quick.

The best part about all of this is the cost. A Libby, 2 cannons and 6 attack bikes are 540pts.

Cant have 2 thunderfires, only 1 heavy support in a allied attachment, I know because i was going to run this yesterday.

I ran a BA list with 2 devi squads, sang priest and corbulo 2 libbys (one ba with divi powers, one SM with null zone and gate) scout squad with heavy bolter, thunderfire, storm raven assault squad with flamers and tac squad with plasma cannon and storm raven oh and 3 hyperios AND sternguard. All but the ASM's and SR were on a skyshield, he deepstruck the flamers under the skyshield and everyone around it (10 horrors, 2x 10 plague bearers) really restricting what I could fire at, which I knew would be the issue with the skyshield.

My first turn of shooting was at the plague bearers as I could see both squads with the bulk of my troops on either side of the skyshield, one squad had 1 left and the other 2 which just cost me first blood. my assault marines where combat squaded out in the open which was a mistake, they got wiped out for first blood for him. The skyshield really restricted his units though, the flamers killed 1 tac squad in 3 turns and that was because I let him wound stuff he couldnt see as he didnt agree that while using templates he couldnt kill what you cant see and as the skyshield is cheese I let him.

It was 2k point game and at the end I had 10 sternguard left, SR, both libbys, corbulo, hyperios x2 and 3 scouts left, he had 8 horrors, 3 plague bearers and 3 flamers left. So it was close but I knew from the off the limitations the skyshield imposes, even more so when facing demons that are in your deployment turn 1 (against deployed armies, different story totaly I would say).

If you check my previous threads it has a list of his demons in it, and that was against just 1 group of 9 flamers, they really are hard to beat in my limited experince. And I was made to go first and there wasnt one mishap.

Basically you are going to rarely, if ever, win this matchup.

The suggestions to take Coteaz with an allied GK detachment is good advice, but it won't be enough to stop 3 full squads of flamers.
Especially if he is also running screamers.

If these are friendly games, I would suggest having your friend limit the flamers to 1 or 2 squads of 6 MAX in his list. They are not balanced and don't
make for a fair matchup. These are supposed to be fun games, not mini ard boyz' where everyone cheeses out and abuses everything.

fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The english one has been out for a while. This is why I said I'll wait. Translations always have errors.

They Have the Codex Daemon Rule, but benefit from 5++ and Fear as per the FAQ. Everything in the codex has this.

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Q: Do models chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons and / or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Chaos Daemons official update have the
Daemon special rule from the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, or do they
have the Daemon army special rule from Codex: Chaos Daemons?
(p27)
A: All models from Codex: Chaos Daemons and/or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Daemons official update have the
Daemon army special rule listed in Codex: Chaos Daemons
with the addition of the Fear special rule from the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook and a 5+ invulnerable save.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

Well not for me ^^ been playing Daemons for years

IMO, one of the worst aspects of flamers is being able to glance any vehicle on a 4+, meaning with a usually maxed out squad of flamers they can kill a LR as easy as a land speeder, with the hull point system its a tad unfair!.

MarkyMark wrote:
IMO, one of the worst aspects of flamers is being able to glance any vehicle on a 4+, meaning with a usually maxed out squad of flamers they can kill a LR as easy as a land speeder, with the hull point system its a tad unfair!.

It's really rough with the first squad eats the LR, than the second squad eats the innards.

Besides you can run them in up to 9

I run them in 2 squads of 5.

maybe I should change them to a squad of 9

The biggest weakness flamers have is concentrated small arms fire.

I was playing my friends CSM yesterday on turn one I dropped a squad of flamers, and with 3 CSM squads shooting bolters/plasma at them, they were whittled down to just 3 flamers. He then assaulted them with 5 chaos spawn and wiped them.

The problem is not focusing enough attention on them. The other squad of flamers I had came in on turn 4, and proceeded to burn away those same 3 squads because he focused fire on my bloodcrushers with them. If you forget about flamers, they will fry you.

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

I suppose I can understand your disappointment if you regularly face Flamers, but did you honestly expect Flamers and Screamers to be the only units in the Codex that don't have an invulnerable save?

If your friend is going to run that many flamers - run 2 squads of strikes and a squad of interceptors. Bring a GK GM for Grand Strategy and then Warp Quake the entire board.

You win this matchup at least 50% of the time from just winning the roll for first turn.

 calypso2ts wrote:
If your friend is going to run that many flamers - run 2 squads of strikes and a squad of interceptors. Bring a GK GM for Grand Strategy and then Warp Quake the entire board.

You win this matchup at least 50% of the time from just winning the roll for first turn.

Not any more. He can easily bring enough allies to wipe one of your squads off the board and open up 1/3 of the table.

 undertow wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

I suppose I can understand your disappointment if you regularly face Flamers, but did you honestly expect Flamers and Screamers to be the only units in the Codex that don't have an invulnerable save?

Not at all. But let's put it this way. Do you really think that they'd be overcosted if they didn't have an invulnerable save? They'd still be fantastic units. Why add more cheese to the cheese? Although I can understand why they got the save. I don't mind facing cheesy lists / units in the slightest, gives me a chance to learn exactly how they work face to face, but I got my hopes up a little bit after reading the German FAQ.

 Rampage wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

I suppose I can understand your disappointment if you regularly face Flamers, but did you honestly expect Flamers and Screamers to be the only units in the Codex that don't have an invulnerable save?

Not at all. But let's put it this way. Do you really think that they'd be overcosted if they didn't have an invulnerable save? They'd still be fantastic units. Why add more cheese to the cheese? Although I can understand why they got the save. I don't mind facing cheesy lists / units in the slightest, gives me a chance to learn exactly how they work face to face, but I got my hopes up a little bit after reading the German FAQ.

Sure lets take away a SM save and give them an extra wound. See if that would raise a fuss at all. Oh look a Template (slush)

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

I suppose I can understand your disappointment if you regularly face Flamers, but did you honestly expect Flamers and Screamers to be the only units in the Codex that don't have an invulnerable save?

Not at all. But let's put it this way. Do you really think that they'd be overcosted if they didn't have an invulnerable save? They'd still be fantastic units. Why add more cheese to the cheese? Although I can understand why they got the save. I don't mind facing cheesy lists / units in the slightest, gives me a chance to learn exactly how they work face to face, but I got my hopes up a little bit after reading the German FAQ.

Sure lets take away a SM save and give them an extra wound. See if that would raise a fuss at all. Oh look a Template (slush)

Yeah, it won't really matter. Even without the Invuln they're just as durable as they were before the update, except they're a lot less expensive.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Rampage wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
fun games eh, I didnt enjoy the game at all yesterday but that was as much down to me using a skyshield as much as it was facing flamers, any unit that can start in front of you has 2 wounds and a invul and EW which just roll to wound and your model is dead, is not fun to play against. With such a static deployment as i had it wasnt fun either.

If I recall correctly, when the new FAQ drops in English flamers won't have invulnerable saves anymore. A German one is already out and it says that they only have the Daemon special rule from the Daemons Codex and not the one from the rulebook.

The new english FAQ is out, they get the codex demons demon rule and the BRB demon rule, so have 5+ save

Ok, didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up. That's a disappointing ruling.

I suppose I can understand your disappointment if you regularly face Flamers, but did you honestly expect Flamers and Screamers to be the only units in the Codex that don't have an invulnerable save?

Not at all. But let's put it this way. Do you really think that they'd be overcosted if they didn't have an invulnerable save? They'd still be fantastic units. Why add more cheese to the cheese? Although I can understand why they got the save. I don't mind facing cheesy lists / units in the slightest, gives me a chance to learn exactly how they work face to face, but I got my hopes up a little bit after reading the German FAQ.

Sure lets take away a SM save and give them an extra wound. See if that would raise a fuss at all. Oh look a Template (slush)

Give us EW and give our weapons no cover or armour saves and add the cost up by what 7 points? fine!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:
The biggest weakness flamers have is concentrated small arms fire.

I was playing my friends CSM yesterday on turn one I dropped a squad of flamers, and with 3 CSM squads shooting bolters/plasma at them, they were whittled down to just 3 flamers. He then assaulted them with 5 chaos spawn and wiped them.

The problem is not focusing enough attention on them. The other squad of flamers I had came in on turn 4, and proceeded to burn away those same 3 squads because he focused fire on my bloodcrushers with them. If you forget about flamers, they will fry you.

Of course, this is the best way to deal with flamers, there is zero point in putting high str weapons on them as they are usually only one dice, save them for the DP's GD and other high toughness units. Templates (frags typhoons etc) and rapid fire weapons are the best way, make them roll as many dice as possible, but it is still a lot of dice to roll until you take out 18wounds on a unit with a 5++ save sadly.

Actually the best way to deal with them is a multi-charge. But you would need some cheap throw away units to do that. Get past their overwatch and they die quickly.

Kevlar wrote:

Not any more. He can easily bring enough allies to wipe one of your squads off the board and open up 1/3 of the table.

Wait, what? How are you blowing away these units at the start of the movement phase?

Quit bitching about flamers. They are what they are, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got even nastier when the new Daemon book hits.

You should only be seeing 3 full squads of them in tournaments. If you are seeing that build in friendly games, you need
to coach your gaming buddies. Or find new gaming buddies.

Firstborn wrote:
Quit bitching about flamers. They are what they are, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got even nastier when the new Daemon book hits.

You should only be seeing 3 full squads of them in tournaments. If you are seeing that build in friendly games, you need
to coach your gaming buddies. Or find new gaming buddies.

Troll much?

On topic: I have found another good way to take out flamers is with flamers. Vets with 3 flamers in a chimera can really do a number on them. They are mobile and effective. Thoughts?

Firstborn wrote:
Quit bitching about flamers. They are what they are, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got even nastier when the new Daemon book hits.

You should only be seeing 3 full squads of them in tournaments. If you are seeing that build in friendly games, you need
to coach your gaming buddies. Or find new gaming buddies.

Any tips on world hunger or global warming? You don't charge for your 2 cents do you?

 Tomb King wrote:
On topic: I have found another good way to take out flamers is with flamers. Vets with 3 flamers in a chimera can really do a number on them. They are mobile and effective. Thoughts?

Not really. At most you're doing about 1 wound to maybe half of the unit, their save is only a 5+. While it sounds good to start, remember to do this you're putting yourself where they want them. Losing a single flamer like that is fine; generally you take a larger unit to fit in sacrifices like this as you grind it through the enemy. Remember, they're sort of the Daemon's version of melta vets. I'm not sure about everyone else, but one of the main reasons I take any is to help with the enemy tanks. If possible you'd do better with a flyer, preferably with blast weapons, as they don't have anything that can effectively take those down, they can shoot at it with their little Horror attack but it shouldn't do any damage.

Firstborn wrote:
Quit bitching about flamers. They are what they are, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got even nastier when the new Daemon book hits.

You should only be seeing 3 full squads of them in tournaments. If you are seeing that build in friendly games, you need
to coach your gaming buddies. Or find new gaming buddies.

I like this guy.

 Brometheus wrote:

Firstborn wrote:
Quit bitching about flamers. They are what they are, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got even nastier when the new Daemon book hits.

You should only be seeing 3 full squads of them in tournaments. If you are seeing that build in friendly games, you need
to coach your gaming buddies. Or find new gaming buddies.

I like this guy.

I've been testing with some Daemon lists recently with a friend. It's been rough for him but we're still tight. Running a flying circus hybrid-esque thing.

5xFMC's
2x5 flamers
3x5PB

Nice. My attitude for all games lately (including against demons fun) is "I'mma go ahead and last until turn 7, so get comfortable."

Here, this solves people's problems: Refuse to play until someone tones down their list, if it's an issue. Why is it so hard to just find another person to play?

To the OP: Bunch up. I know it's silly, but... It will concentrate the amount of wounds you can cause in return.

 Brometheus wrote:
Nice. My attitude for all games lately (including against demons fun) is "I'mma go ahead and last until turn 7, so get comfortable."

Been blowing people out by turn 4. Turn 3 was the best so it's no IG Leafblower, but it's alot more fun ^^

Maybe so.. but ask anyone about my Invulnerable Saves.

 Brometheus wrote:
Maybe so.. but ask anyone about my Invulnerable Saves.

haha I hear ya on that. Been rolling hot on grounding checks, hope it keeps up for another week.

Fateweaver can help their saves right? If I recall he does or gives them a 2nd and makes you decide kill fateweaver or kill the flamers. My friend did this but I had 2 squads of lootas and 50 boys and a dakka jet on waaagh shooting at the flamers and rolling 3 shots for the lootas. Enough to kill one of the units but was hard choice to go for fateweaver or the flamers Hopefully kill FW and make it easier to kill flamers but if you fail to kill him then on his turn you're dead. Or Just make him roll so many dice he is going to fail enough to make the flamers manageable.

pepe5454 wrote:
Fateweaver can help their saves right? If I recall he does or gives them a 2nd and makes you decide kill fateweaver or kill the flamers. My friend did this but I had 2 squads of lootas and 50 boys and a dakka jet on waaagh shooting at the flamers and rolling 3 shots for the lootas. Enough to kill one of the units but was hard choice to go for fateweaver or the flamers Hopefully kill FW and make it easier to kill flamers but if you fail to kill him then on his turn you're dead. Or Just make him roll so many dice he is going to fail enough to make the flamers manageable.

Yes Fateweaver grans a 6" re-roll are. Fairly large bubble for Kairos' ability

Have you all tried a vet squad or pcs decked out with flamers? Fight flamers with flamers. They arrive in tight formation and take out your chimera.. squad gets out and burns them for it. 4 PCS flamers will on average cause 18 wounds to a cluster of 9 flamers in one shooting phase.

 Tomb King wrote:
Have you all tried a vet squad or pcs decked out with flamers? Fight flamers with flamers. They arrive in tight formation and take out your chimera.. squad gets out and burns them for it. 4 PCS flamers will on average cause 18 wounds to a cluster of 9 flamers in one shooting phase.

That would be 6 dead models with avg rolling 3 dead models if Kairos is there. Granted though if you get out of your chimera to burn them you had better kill them all.

 Tomb King wrote:
Have you all tried a vet squad or pcs decked out with flamers? Fight flamers with flamers. They arrive in tight formation and take out your chimera.. squad gets out and burns them for it. 4 PCS flamers will on average cause 18 wounds to a cluster of 9 flamers in one shooting phase.

You asked what we thought... ignored it and then asked again...
Lasgun spam may be better against them than flamers. At least then you're not sitting there where they want to and assuming they want to go for them rather than say a LR or something. They're like melta sternguard.

 n0t_u wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Have you all tried a vet squad or pcs decked out with flamers? Fight flamers with flamers. They arrive in tight formation and take out your chimera.. squad gets out and burns them for it. 4 PCS flamers will on average cause 18 wounds to a cluster of 9 flamers in one shooting phase.

You asked what we thought... ignored it and then asked again...
Lasgun spam may be better against them than flamers. At least then you're not sitting there where they want to and assuming they want to go for them rather than say a LR or something. They're like melta sternguard.

Lol sorry about I could not find my post so thought it might have been deleted along with the trolling one. With wall of death flamer vets might not be bad objective holders in cover. Might try more flamers in my list and see how it goes.

 Lord Sludge wrote:
I agree with the Aussie, you need more boots on the ground.

At least a handful of people have listened to me

You know what makes an army incrementally harder for me, a daemon player, to use my nastys like fiends, flamers and FMC's?

Boots. The more boots, the harder it gets

Kevlar wrote:
Actually the best way to deal with them is a multi-charge. But you would need some cheap throw away units to do that. Get past their overwatch and they die quickly.

Strange that good tactics like these...

...require many boots to accomplish BOOTS. YOU NEEDS THEM. LOTS OF THEM.

Kevlar wrote:

Dezstiny wrote:
I heavily agree samuele999 and with those suggesting gk ss and quisi, if he cant ds next to you, and they deepstrike in a circle, plasma cannon the freakin hell out of them, what that,s 9x 3 plasma cannon wounds, thats one unit of flmaers eeradicated. then the purifiers shooting at the other flamer squad, with the help of the rest of your other units that's 18 of 27 flamers killed, and now he has just 9 left. the problem is that he has 3 squads, 1 squad no problem.

Where do you buy these blessed plasma cannons that always hit, always wound, and always make the enemy fail their save? I could use a squad of those!

you also forgot never get hot.

A lot of these guys have clearly neither played with or against 27 flamers. Please, guys, quit trying to pass bad mathhammer off as good advice.
Plasma cannons suck against them - they are only bunched up for one turn, and it is just too hard to do enough damage - 33% of ALL wounds are ignored. Mass firepower is how you deal with flamers. to kill a squad outright, you will need to put 27-30 wounds on them. (Or 13-15 S8 plus wounds.) That is freaking hard to do, and that deals with one of the three squads.

Do not for get the REST of the daemon army - screamers and FMC's... ...they might not be awesome, but daemons are pretty good again.

Yea, I have had trouble with even one unit of them. I dont run codexes that exactly have the throw away units to spare. Considering it basically costs you two units to try and lock up one unit if you are lucky. One from the flamers killing them, then one from the overwatch.

Multiply this across three units of them and takes hordes to really have that level of attrition.

Also then there is still the other half of his army to deal with.

Also the ones that cant see with their flamers still get 3 shot bolters on top of the flame template

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
..., quit trying to pass bad mathhammer off as good advice. ... you will need to put 27-30 wounds on them. (Or 13-15 S8 plus wounds.) That is freaking hard to do, and that deals with one of the three squads.
.

I love when people knock mathematics and then totally botch the calculations because s8+ means nothing to eternal warrior daemons unless they somehow found FNP

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
A lot of these guys have clearly neither played with or against 27 flamers. Please, guys, quit trying to pass bad mathhammer off as good advice.
Plasma cannons suck against them - they are only bunched up for one turn, and it is just too hard to do enough damage - 33% of ALL wounds are ignored. Mass firepower is how you deal with flamers. to kill a squad outright, you will need to put 27-30 wounds on them. (Or 13-15 S8 plus wounds.) That is freaking hard to do, and that deals with one of the three squads.

Do not for get the REST of the daemon army - screamers and FMC's... ...they might not be awesome, but daemons are pretty good again.

LoL good to see you play against them so much that you know the Entire Daemon Codex Has Eternal Warrior. Most Daemons only have an invul save.

The trick to killing them is truly lots of wounds. That's all, make them roll lots of dice. Be it bolters, flamers, battle cannons. The more wounds you dish out the more will die.

I play against them, not with them. Sorry I don't know their codex. I do know, however, that what I said is exactly true - you kill them with volume of fire. Force as many saves as possible on them to kill them. I also know that you have to put around 30 wounds on a squad to kill it.

I have played against them a lot, I just don't have any S8 shooting so I have little experience with that. I kill them with frfsrf blobs and stormbolters and psycannons.

As a deamon player I would say flamers are broken, no question at 1000 points, less so at 1,999 but at 2,000 they get to double them so..yeah. Broken.

Good job most deamon players are decent people

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
..., quit trying to pass bad mathhammer off as good advice. ... you will need to put 27-30 wounds on them. (Or 13-15 S8 plus wounds.) That is freaking hard to do, and that deals with one of the three squads.
.

I love when people knock mathematics and then totally botch the calculations because s8+ means nothing to eternal warrior daemons unless they somehow found FNP

They no longer have eternal warrior it was not included in the FAQ. It was rewritten to include an invulnerable save and add ‘fear’
So ST 8 will take them out

B wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
..., quit trying to pass bad mathhammer off as good advice. ... you will need to put 27-30 wounds on them. (Or 13-15 S8 plus wounds.) That is freaking hard to do, and that deals with one of the three squads.
.

I love when people knock mathematics and then totally botch the calculations because s8+ means nothing to eternal warrior daemons unless they somehow found FNP

They no longer have eternal warrior it was not included in the FAQ. It was rewritten to include an invulnerable save and add ‘fear’
So ST 8 will take them out

It states the get the Daemon rule from the codex as well as Fear and a 5++. I suggest you go and give it another read.

Q: Do models chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons and / or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Chaos Daemons official update have the
Daemon special rule from the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, or do they
have the Daemon army special rule from Codex: Chaos Daemons?
(p27)
A: All models from Codex: Chaos Daemons and/or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Daemons official update have the
Daemon army special rule listed in Codex: Chaos Daemons
with the addition of the Fear special rule from the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook and a 5+ invulnerable save.

IDK, wait till Daemons get a new codex and probably lose the eternal warrior rule?

All I know is the more shots you have the better the chance. Also flying things they are unable to kill.

Assaulting works too, but be sure to double charge with an expendable unit going first, to use up the overwatch. Once you get into CC they're pretty terrible and tend to just be tied up. More boots on the ground improves all these things, and is a good strategy in general. especially when you keep your dudes nicely spread out.

That's why I run 4 cultist squads and only one or two squads of plague marines...

 Meade wrote:
IDK, wait till Daemons get a new codex and probably lose the eternal warrior rule?

All I know is the more shots you have the better the chance. Also flying things they are unable to kill.

Assaulting works too, but be sure to double charge with an expendable unit going first, to use up the overwatch. Once you get into CC they're pretty terrible and tend to just be tied up. More boots on the ground improves all these things, and is a good strategy in general. especially when you keep your dudes nicely spread out.

That's why I run 4 cultist squads and only one or two squads of plague marines...

Maybe, we'll prolly find out in January (Rumoured)

yes there are ways to play around it. The flamers are just part of it though. Screamers are down right nasty themselves. Than flying Daemon Princes. So much fun stuff in the codex that is really hard to deal with.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Maybe, we'll prolly find out in January (Rumoured)

yes there are ways to play around it. The flamers are just part of it though. Screamers are down right nasty themselves. Than flying Daemon Princes. So much fun stuff in the codex that is really hard to deal with.

I think if GW bothered to put the daemon rule into the BRB that way it's likely. Not to mention the CSM also losing EW.

Yeah pretty much. The lists used in Feast of Blades with the comms relay and maxed out screamers and flamers look brutal. The OP should thank his lucky stars that his buddy hasn't discovered that yet. Although I read back in the thread and the same stuff said applies to screamers as well, more bodies, bubble wrapping units, dual charging the flamers, etc. more shots will ground the DP's as well. Those tactics and list builds give you a fighting chance at least.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

B wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
..., quit trying to pass bad mathhammer off as good advice. ... you will need to put 27-30 wounds on them. (Or 13-15 S8 plus wounds.) That is freaking hard to do, and that deals with one of the three squads.
.

I love when people knock mathematics and then totally botch the calculations because s8+ means nothing to eternal warrior daemons unless they somehow found FNP

They no longer have eternal warrior it was not included in the FAQ. It was rewritten to include an invulnerable save and add ‘fear’
So ST 8 will take them out

It states the get the Daemon rule from the codex as well as Fear and a 5++. I suggest you go and give it another read.

Q: Do models chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons and / or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Chaos Daemons official update have the
Daemon special rule from the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, or do they
have the Daemon army special rule from Codex: Chaos Daemons?
(p27)
A: All models from Codex: Chaos Daemons and/or the White
Dwarf, August 2012, Codex: Daemons official update have the
Daemon army special rule listed in Codex: Chaos Daemons
with the addition of the Fear special rule from the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook and a 5+ invulnerable save.

I did go look it up and I have to say you are completely right version 1.2 kind of cleared that up. As I was looking i at the breath of chaos it only says armor and cover so I guess invulnerable saves can be taken?

Correct.

Then as for the blood angles, storm shields would be a defense but what I was thinking was the death cult assassin. you get 3 for 120 they act independently so 1 can charge soak up over-watch then then the rest or even another squad.

B wrote:
Then as for the blood angles, storm shields would be a defense but what I was thinking was the death cult assassin. you get 3 for 120 they act independently so 1 can charge soak up over-watch then then the rest or even another squad.

Thought DCA was a Inquisitor Warband thingy in Codex:GK

Depends on which way your group is using Overwatch. Theres an old debate about if you can or cannot overwatch the second + squad if you don't on the first, etc

I have a gamer at the FLGS who runs this 3x9 flamer list and it is tough to beat, only a handful of options. They have been eating my GK for breakfast, saving a LOT more than 33% (even in the last game where he used my dice, he forgot his). Especially with that Fateweaver and the re-rolls. In our last game I blasted away with my IG FRFSRF and did 10 wounds. He saved 9. Then swooped in and blasted 25 models (2 of his units flamed 3 of mine).

What sucked was that only about 7 models were under the templates, each getting hit 3 or 4 times...
The ruling that makes them really broken is that now models in a unit not under a template can be killed. IMHO *that* is the rule that is broken.

 hdbbstephen wrote:
The ruling that makes them really broken is that now models in a unit not under a template can be killed. IMHO *that* is the rule that is broken.

It was the same in 5th edition.
And maybe 4th - don't remember.

B wrote:
Then as for the blood angles, storm shields would be a defense but what I was thinking was the death cult assassin. you get 3 for 120 they act independently so 1 can charge soak up over-watch then then the rest or even another squad.

For BA's, take sang priests as well, we get FNP against breath of chaos. I am planning on running 20 termies against a demon list soon, 15 TH SS (as thats all I have) 5 LC's, then 3 tac squads and DC squad, combat squad the termies into three squads of 5 two with sang priests in termie armour and a HQ in there as well, soak up the overwatch then charge in with the DC as well, that will take care of the flamers and MC's, 24 bolters plus special and heavy weapons to take the rest of his army out, well thats the plan at least!

rigeld2 wrote:

 hdbbstephen wrote:
The ruling that makes them really broken is that now models in a unit not under a template can be killed. IMHO that is the rule that is broken.

It was the same in 5th edition.
And maybe 4th - don't remember.

LOL, I jumped back in straight from 3rd Ed, back then you could only allocate wounds to models under the template. And Flamers were 40 pts, with a Daemonic Aura 4+ save, 2W, with a "shoot flame" attack up to 6" range that did d6 S3 hits to one target. FoCs were different then, too, with 25% of your CSM list able to be allocated to Daemons - which would have limited you to 12 in a 2k pt game.

I am learning a whole new game of 40k here...

The thing with taking thunderhammer terminators to deal with the flamers is screamers. Yes, if he is stacking flamers, it is safe to assume he has a couple of squads of terminator-eating jetbikes as well.

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
The thing with taking thunderhammer terminators to deal with the flamers is screamers. Yes, if he is stacking flamers, it is safe to assume he has a couple of squads of terminator-eating jetbikes as well.

Yes I do...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have lots of screamers also...

I had the fun of dealing with a deamon list with my graud. It was a 2000 pt game so I had 2 quad guns as well as lots of troopes I ran a mass list of Platoons with ml and gl or autocannon gl , and on 50 man blobwith comisar lord with 5 flamers, he drop and tourch my 30man, 3 ml 3 gl. to a man with the 9 man flamers next turn 1st rank 2nd rank took out one squad buy them self and the flamers hit 4 more from the scremmers. mass fire will ruin thier day all day. next time I am going to split the heavy equiped squads and leave the blob as a target.

I don't get this multiple hits thing, page 16 is hardly relevant, as the way it is written is completely unintelligble.

'As long as a model is in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model is out of range.'

Right, the reason for my comment, firstly Template weapons dont use To Hit Rolls which means that the entire rule doesn't apply to them. Secondly the rule uses the word "model" and then the word "he". Grammar would therfore infer that the rule only applies to models and not units. Which makes the rule completely useless. (Had the second part read the unit is considered to be in range then all bets are off...)

As near as I can see/infer, template weapons only hit those models actually covered by the template.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Right, the reason for my comment, firstly Template weapons dont use To Hit Rolls which means that the entire rule doesn't apply to them. Secondly the rule uses the word "model" and then the word "he". Grammar would therfore infer that the rule only applies to models and not units. Which makes the rule completely useless. (Had the second part read the unit is considered to be in range then all bets are off...)

As near as I can see/infer, template weapons only hit those models actually covered by the template.

I concur, this needs an FAQ. We took a vote, and I put it to "You make da call" and all say that everybody dies.

Actually, Template weapon placement takes place of rolling to hit. So it can be equivocated to it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, Template weapon placement takes place of rolling to hit. So it can be equivocated to it.

That was the consensus. Since I have jumped from third ed to sixth, it's a little hard to swallow.

 AndrewC wrote:


As near as I can see/infer, template weapons only hit those models actually covered by the template.

Yes you calculate hits based on the models touched by the template. Then you roll to wound against majority toughness. Then you allocate wounds and make saves using the various wound allocation techniques. Even though you only "hit" those models, you can allocate wounds to any model in the unit that you have Line Of Sight to. Whether or not those models were covered by the template, or even in range of the template does not matter. Just as long as they aren't completely hidden by Line of Sight blocking terrain, or intervening models.

Kevlar wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:


As near as I can see/infer, template weapons only hit those models actually covered by the template.

Yes you calculate hits based on the models touched by the template. Then you roll to wound against majority toughness. Then you allocate wounds and make saves using the various wound allocation techniques. Even though you only "hit" those models, you can allocate wounds to any model in the unit that you have Line Of Sight to. Whether or not those models were covered by the template, or even in range of the template does not matter. Just as long as they aren't completely hidden by Line of Sight blocking terrain, or intervening models.

But thats the point of my observation, the rule that allows you to do so only allows you to 'roll' the hits for those shots where you have rolled to hit. Templates don't roll to hit, which the rule on P16 specifically calls out for. It's a very badly written rule.

Can I ask someone to point out the thread on YMDC where this was polled, because I can't find it. TY.

Oh found it, three people responding is hardly an overwhelming consensus.

Cheers

Andrew

As was said earlier, placing the template is the equivalent of rolling to hit.

Daemons aren't the only template abusers - ork burnawagons are freaking deadly.

But unfortunately it is not rolling to hit, it is a separate mechanism. A mechanism that is not recognised by the rule on P16.

Whether your RAI is what was intended by GW (more than likely I admit) what GW wrote is not the same.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
But unfortunately it is not rolling to hit, it is a separate mechanism. A mechanism that is not recognised by the rule on P16.

Whether your RAI is what was intended by GW (more than likely I admit) what GW wrote is not the same.

Cheers

Andrew

Yay glad most TOs don't use your logic

Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

Unless they have pavane. Collapsing your platoon into a nice template shaped formation right in front of the flamers should generate quite a decent amount of hits.

Kevlar wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

Unless they have pavane. Collapsing your platoon into a nice template shaped formation right in front of the flamers should generate quite a decent amount of hits.

And a not so reliable morale check.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

 riverhawks32 wrote:
Ally guard. Take 2 platoons full to the brim in bodies. Space them out full coherency length. Demons drop, kill a couple, die to the 58725725 FRFSRF shots flying at them.

Unless they have pavane. Collapsing your platoon into a nice template shaped formation right in front of the flamers should generate quite a decent amount of hits.

And a not so reliable morale check.

Don't combine the platton. Pavane + flamers isn't that scary if it's only going to kill a 10 man squad of regular gaurdsmen.

 AndrewC wrote:
But unfortunately it is not rolling to hit, it is a separate mechanism. A mechanism that is not recognised by the rule on P16.

Whether your RAI is what was intended by GW (more than likely I admit) what GW wrote is not the same.

It would do you well to actually read the rules if you want to discuss them.
Page 52, Template weapons. Instead of rolling to hit, place the template.
That equates the two mechanisms.

>>AndrewC, by "polling" I meant the group of players at the FLGS. If that's how they play, that's the rule. Until or unless it gets FAQd. Which is unlikely since it's been that way since 5th Ed.

I suppose it jumped out at me because it was such a departure from 3rd Ed, which was the rule when I last played back in '03.

rigeld2 wrote:
It would do you well to actually read the rules if you want to discuss them.

Oh Yes, that wonderful statement, thank you for providing it.

Page 52, Template weapons. Instead of rolling to hit, place the template.
That equates the two mechanisms.

Firstly thank you for for acknowledging that there are two separate mechanisms at work here.

Page 52 describes the method for determining hits for template weapons by telling you to ignore To Hit rolls however the rule on P16 specifically refers you to the To Hit rules.

I have already acknowledged that the RAI is as you have stated, I have only pointed out that RAW (due to a badly written rule) templates can only hit those models actually under the template as the rule allowing you to roll over excess hits to other members of the squad is 'closed' to templates because they have no access to the activating condition which is To Hit rolls.

Have a nice day.

Andrew

Take this to YMDC if you still disagree - its off-topic for this thread.
Placing the template is equivalent to rolling to hit. Meaning the rule is not "closed" to it.

It'd be better if they only hit models under the template - template sniping would be awesome.

The rule on page 16 has nothing to do with wounding models not under a template. Not sure why it's being brought into the argument.
What allows models not under the template to be wounded is on page 52 "Wounds inflicted by Template weapons are allocated following the normal rules".
Templates must hit as many models as possible, this meanst he closest model may not even be hit by the Template, but the closest model must be allocated to first.

 Yuber wrote:
You are playing a blood angels army: That's the problem in itself - you are bringing a paper to a scissor fight.

The only way I can fathom that can deal with such a list is a shooty list - something the BA has trouble with...

Have you tried a bolter-armed death company? Pelt them to death. I think the key is keeping them from deep striking at favorable positions.

There is really nothing wrong with your list, and tactics can only help you so much. There are just fights you cant win.

LValx wrote:Where to start?

For one, Blood Angels will ALWAYS be gimped vs Flamers. Unfortunately the lack of bolters really, really hurts you. Lascannons, Missiles and even Riflemen aren't particularly good options because none of them particularly excel at killing light infantry.

Grey Knight detachments aren't the auto-fix that many are making them out to be. For one, warp quake only helps you if you go first (there is also some decreased effectiveness with the ability to pre-measure). Otherwise you are still pretty much at the mercy of the Flamers. Secondly 10 Strikers with 2 Psycannons will only kill 4-5 Flamers, that simply isnt enough as even 2-3 Flamers can easily kill an entire squad of marines.

Sending fodder units in to absorb overwatch or having large, cheap screens are two of your very best options. I would recommend taking Coteaz, 10 Purifiers, 10 Strikes and a squad of max Henchmen, completely plain. This gives you an effective screen with which you can protect the rest of your army and gain more turns of shooting.

As suggested by others, I would also take as few upgrades as possible so as to maximize how many bodies you have on the table!

Does your friend also run screamers and FMCs? Because that is when the flamers get really brutal. New Daemons are borderline broken.

This almost made me cry. I only read page 1 and the last one... BA are not bad against flamers. We can take bolters just as much as smurfs can, we can take more punishing fire than them for cheaper (see dev prices), we can kill flamers too.
That said, spread out with a core of shooty troops. Then...

jy2 wrote:Before assaulting them, I split up my destroyer lord from my wraiths. I then charge my destroyer lord first. Naturally he dies....but I don't care because he's equipped with a res orb. Then the wraiths can charge in overwatch-free and my d-lord has a 50% chance to get back up.

With other armies, you need a cheap sacrificial unit to make the charge first. After that unit eats the overwatch, then you charge in your hammer unit.

this. Shoot them with bolters/whatever the hell you want then charge in with 1-4 models then again with legit combat units. Just dont spread out much at first... I mean, dont advance one unit forward etc...

This is my next plan of attack against demons, use a termie shield literally, all with TH SS and sang priests with them, then have a lot of bolters deployed behind them so any templates will be directed onto the termies, let the termies take the alpha strike then rapid fire rapid fire rapid fire, then termies charge in then the DC,

Finally a use for chaos mutliators.

Single mutilator absorbs the overwatch fire from a unit of flamers so that your real assault unit can charge in unmolested.

Although I suppose 10 cultists could do the same thing.

Don't forget that the guy with flamers is also sporting S5 AP2 screamers to destroy your wall of terminators.

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
Don't forget that the guy with flamers is also sporting S5 AP2 screamers to destroy your wall of terminators.

But he isnt, its nurgle and tzeentch.

Someone has probably already said this but grab an allied vanilla marine libby and have him take null zone then just force him to take saves. I use this against all the deamons I p[lay and it obliterates them.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
Don't forget that the guy with flamers is also sporting S5 AP2 screamers to destroy your wall of terminators.

But he isnt, its nurgle and tzeentch.

But he is...
I play both flamers and screamers....

If a player spams flamers and takes no screamers with daemons as his primary detachment, then you should beat him, as he has no clear understanding of the codex. A squad of screamers will just destroy terminator squads and low initiative squads outright. If your opponent is 3+ armor I4 exclusively, then they are tank hunting jetbikes.

Daemons are viable again, and very hard to deal with for many builds.

Right I'm back again to find this post is still alive!

So basically would
Corteaz + 2 unit of grey knight strike squads
+ imp
with loads of 10 man squads
mortars
griffons etc

Work?

I'm gonna have to give up on my ba against my demon friend, but the look on his face will be beautiful with this list.
Strike squads mean he cant deepstrike with 12 inches of my imp line if I go first
Corteaz is lovely at 100 points,lv 2 pysker, who could get a 4++ inv for a unit or re-roll to hits + re roll seize the initiative
Then imp do what they do best, send out a billzilion shots+ small templates via griffons + mortars
And then I laugh mwhaaa

And thanks guys for your help!

10 strikes
10 interceptors
10 purifiers or a unit of purgation with 4 heavy incinerators.
Coteaz

Shunt the interceptors, cover almost the entire board with warpquake. When you place a mishap coteaz and 4 heavy incinerators light up the entire squad while still clustered.

 samuele999 wrote:
Right I'm back again to find this post is still alive!

So basically would
Corteaz + 2 unit of grey knight strike squads
+ imp
with loads of 10 man squads
mortars
griffons etc

Work?

I'm gonna have to give up on my ba against my demon friend, but the look on his face will be beautiful with this list.
Strike squads mean he cant deepstrike with 12 inches of my imp line if I go first
Corteaz is lovely at 100 points,lv 2 pysker, who could get a 4++ inv for a unit or re-roll to hits + re roll seize the initiative
Then imp do what they do best, send out a billzilion shots+ small templates via griffons + mortars
And then I laugh mwhaaa

And thanks guys for your help!

Uh oh....