Apparently this young lady went through a difficult time at the NYC Comic Con that just happened being asked about her cup sized and being asked to spank someone repeatedly. I feel bad something that should have been an enjoyable experiences turned out to be miserable. I did have to laugh a bit because it does stereotype the whole sex staved nerds you see in movies/shows
I think anyone who is aware of "geek conventions" is aware of these models. Is this sort of thing common for these women? or just an unfortunate encounter?
I'm sorry, but they're just asking for it. Going to a comic-con dressed up in skintight latex with cleavage showing like that is bound to attract attention. Of all the girls going, probably only a small fraction dress like that, yet the article makes it out to imply that they all do it. I mean, look at those photos; one's dressed up in short shorts, fishnets and a tight leather jacket, with the only hint of the event being the Vader mask. I'm not complaining about what they're wearing, I'm saying that if they wear it, they'll have to suck up the fact that they're going to get some male attention that might be considered "overzealous".
Any women dressing up in a sexy outfit as a booth babe in a place with many guys and/or alcohol will have the same experience I think.
Of course not, I was just pointing out that at convention filled with geeks and a very attractive woman wearing the outfit of a sex fantasy more or less plays out the whole "geek thing" you see in skits like family guy, Simpsons, Robot Chicken, one of my personal favorite was That 70s Show Eric wanting Donna to dress up like Princess Leia. I ask my gal to dress up as Lara Croft for Halloween so I am guilty geek looking for his fantasy come true.
I don't buy the story frankly, nothing happened to her, other than the occasional gak pick up line/comment.. why the feth is it in a paper?
Oh its The Daily Mail and she has a decent rack, thats why then.
Its a none story. Attractive people have to put with with people trying to pick up on you, so what? I actually went to the NY comic con dressed in an awesome spidey costume and I fully expected to get more attention from people as a result of wearing it, it was mainly "awesome costume dude" at the con, and then occasional slapped ass off the odd woman/gay bloke when I wore it on the piss afterwards...
And I pulled a bird whilst still in costume in Hogs and Heiffers that night.... Obviously I'm essence of man and you dont see me whinging about all that attention.
The point is, if you don't want people to notice you, don't fething dress up. I think she is just talking gak to get in a newspaper, because I don't think nerds are more sexually aggressive than the next guy. In fact, they are a wee bit more shy (see hover hands)
If she wore that on a building site or a Naval base she would have had to put up with more than "Nice rack!" anyway!
At Comic Con today, I went as Black Cat. This is a gakky picture and there will be better ones of my whole costume coming up but I just want to say something.
Black Cat’s costume has a fair amount of cleavage (conservative compared to many other female comic characters but a good amount as far as what I’ve ever shown). I guess I was not surprised to have a couple men ask to pose with me and then do some doofy “WHOA LOOK AT THOSE KNOCKERS” poses. I just make a really ugly face when I see they’re doing it. One guy with the social graces of a lemur said to me “I was this close to wearing that same outfit. My breasts are large and supple and I think it would have been nice.” Nope. Stop talking.
But aside from guys being doofy and awkward (but clearly not foul-intentioned), I did have my first truly skeezy experience at Comic Con today.
And my first truly empowering moment as well.
This group of men from some kind of Stan Lee fan club blah blah internet video channel blah blah asked to interview with them on camera about Comic Con. I said well okay, sure. Camera is rolling. The “host” is a middle aged, rotund dude. It’s an all-male crew and lots of people (mostly guys) were beginning to crowd around. The following is the interview as burned in my mind. Keep in mind that I expected this to be about Comic Con in general.
Him: I’m here with…
Me: Mandy, aka Felicia Hardy aka Black Cat
Him: ..And she is HOT. Do you think I’m hot enough to pull that off?
Me: Uh, I’m not sure, I’ve never seen you in drag.
Him: I’ve got a great ass. Go on, spank me.
Me: (look at his large ass, popped up mere inches away from me then look into the camera like are you kidding me . No thanks. I may hurt you, I’m a lot stronger than I look.
Him: Aw come on!
Me: No, seriously. Stop.
Him: Damn, alright! Well let me ask you an important question then…what is your cup size?
Me: (big talk show smile) That is actually none of your fething business.
Him: Oh! I think that means to say she’s a C.
Me: I actually have no breasts at all, what you see is just all of the fat from my midsection pulled up to my chest and carefully held in place with this corset. It’s really uncomfortable, I don’t know why I do it.
Him: (to the male crowd) Aw, come on what do you guys think? C cup?
—a few males start to shout out cup sizes as I stand there looking at this guy like this has to be a fething joke, then look at the crowd and see that no amount of witty banter or fiestiness will stop making this whole thing fething dumb. It was clearly a ploy to single out cosplaying women to get them to talk sexual innuendos and flirt with this donkey-cave and let him talk down to them simply because they were in costume and were attractive. Whether I’m in a skintight catsuit or not, I’m a fething professional in everything I do and I don’t need to play nice for this idiot.
Me: This is not an interview, this is degrading. I’m done. (I walk away)
Him: (clearly dumbfounded and surprised) ..Come on, it’s all in good fun!
Me: Being degraded is fun? That was unprofessional and I hope that isn’t your day job because you can’t interview for gak, my man.
And the entire crew and the crowd were SILENT. NOTHING. SHOCK, HONEY. It felt like I was in a heated fog, full of rage and pride and I sashayed away feeling like the most badass melon-fether in the whole damn room, but kind of also on the verge of tears. A slow build of applause would have been appropriate, but from the looks on people’s faces, they were just completely not expecting me to do what I just did- which was really nothing more than speaking up for myself. It wasn’t something one should feel brave for doing but crazy for not doing when necessary.
It’s because many people at these cons expect women cosplaying as vixens (or even just wearing particularly flattering costumes) to be open/ welcoming to crude male commentary and lecherous ogling, like our presence comes with subtitles that say “I represent your fantasy thus you may treat me like a fantasy and not a human in a costume”. And maybe that will always be how the majority of people see us. But that does not mean we have to put up with gak that crosses the line, it does not mean we owe them a fantasy, it does not mean we dress up to have guys drooling over us and letting us know that we turn them on. It is not all about your dicks, gentlemen. So I encourage cosplaying women everywhere to be blunt and vocal with their rights, their personal boundaries, and their comfort level at conventions. I actually encourage girls to be brashly shameless about these things, to not be afraid to speak up if you feel uncomfortable and to let the person doing it know that they are crossing the line. Don’t keep quiet because you’re scared of what they might say or think- because if you say nothing they will continue to see what they’re doing as OK.
Mandy then wrote;
But seriously just want to clear up something: an experience being treated like that at Comic Con has never happened to me before, which is why I was compelled to post and discuss it here. The vast majority of men I’ve encountered show respect to me and other cosplaying women- they ask before posing with me, they often ask before taking a picture at all, they don’t make lewd or derogatory comments and they follow my (and most ladies’) basic rules on touching:Your hands can be on the places they’d be if I was your Mama- if you wouldn’t touch your Mama there, you won’t be touching me there. And it’s nice to know that 99% of men would not play grab-ass with their mamas!
If you’re one of the respectful guys, thank you for doing what you do and for making cons that much more enjoyable and fun for everyone- I truly appreciate it and you.
Does this kind of thing happen to attractive people at cons? Yes. It happened to her, it happens to Jessica Nigiri (if you don't know, google her, you're welcome in advance) it happened to matty, it's happened to me, if you're any where on the attractive scale (six or better out of ten) you'll be getting attention from one gender or another that comes with a general lacking of social ability.
That said, as a community cosplay runs off of drama. Pure, un cut drama.
So the actual truth of what happened to the Black Cat at NYCC is gonna be somewhere in between.
Apparently this young lady went through a difficult time at the NYC Comic Con that just happened being asked about her cup sized and being asked to spank someone repeatedly. I feel bad something that should have been an enjoyable experiences turned out to be miserable. I did have to laugh a bit because it does stereotype the whole sex staved nerds you see in movies/shows
I think anyone who is aware of "geek conventions" is aware of these models. Is this sort of thing common for these women? or just an unfortunate encounter?
Its hard to put into words how concerned I am about her plight.
Apparently this young lady went through a difficult time at the NYC Comic Con that just happened being asked about her cup sized and being asked to spank someone repeatedly. I feel bad something that should have been an enjoyable experiences turned out to be miserable. I did have to laugh a bit because it does stereotype the whole sex staved nerds you see in movies/shows
I think anyone who is aware of "geek conventions" is aware of these models. Is this sort of thing common for these women? or just an unfortunate encounter?
Its hard to put into words how concerned I am about her plight.
I'm sure you're just suffering Frazzled, shall the Wiener Dog nation rise up an ride to the rescue of this unfortunate woman?
When I was tournamenting in Austin a few times back when dinosaurs roamed, the Wife would show up around lunchtime with lunch. The crowd would just stop for a second.
When I was tournamenting in Austin a few times back when dinosaurs roamed, the Wife would show up around lunchtime with lunch. The crowd would just stop for a second.
I had a prior girlfriend get her jollies out by going into game stores with me just to watch everyone stare agape at the person with two X chromosomes as if they'd never seen one. It's kind of sad.
When I was tournamenting in Austin a few times back when dinosaurs roamed, the Wife would show up around lunchtime with lunch. The crowd would just stop for a second.
daedalus wrote:Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Querere victima according to Google translate... Which may or may not be incorrect.
Actually, that would be a pretty cool name for a Land Raider
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Just at a guess "Culpa bit victimia"
if google translate agrees it must be halting elementary latin.
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
Just saying, but if you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then why dress as one.
If you don't want that attention, then why dress up in tight latex with cleavege? That's asking for such situations.
I'm smart enough to not get a delicious lollypop from that man in that bus, and so should she be.
Querere victima according to Google translate... Which may or may not be incorrect.
How did we, in the span of 10 seconds or so, get different results for that?
Haven't a fething clue
Blame Google.
EDIT: Just tested it, I capitalised the B in blame, and it changed... I got the same result as the rest of you without a capital B. Odd...
well literally culpa bit victimia would be "fault of the victim" like mea culpa is "my fault" capitalizing it may actually make the word literally blame; a word I do not know in latin.
thenoobbomb wrote: Just saying, but if you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then why dress as one.
The underlying assumption here seems to be that "attractive woman in tight clothing = sex object." You're not really stating a counterargument so much as restating the initial problem.
thenoobbomb wrote: Just saying, but if you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then why dress as one.
The underlying assumption here seems to be that "attractive woman in tight clothing = sex object." You're not really stating a counterargument so much as restating the initial problem.
How am I supposed to see someone in tight latex with cleavege and all?
What is it then?
Someone just wanting to have fun by dressing up near naked?
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
thenoobbomb wrote: Just saying, but if you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then why dress as one.
The underlying assumption here seems to be that "attractive woman in tight clothing = sex object." You're not really stating a counterargument so much as restating the initial problem.
I say she simply didn't have the foresight to just guess what would happen if she took that costume to the Convention.
I mean... WHO could have predicted such a reaction from such a crowd?
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
Spoiler:
Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
Off-topic, but the second girl is way cuter than the first.
thenoobbomb wrote: Just saying, but if you do not want to be seen as a sex object, then why dress as one.
The underlying assumption here seems to be that "attractive woman in tight clothing = sex object." You're not really stating a counterargument so much as restating the initial problem.
I say she simply didn't have the foresight to just guess what would happen if she took that costume to the Convention.
I mean... WHO could have predicted such a reaction from such a crowd?
Nobody ofcourse. Sure, I'd not have expected such comments either, but well, you know what you will be seen as.
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
Spoiler:
Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
Off-topic, but the second girl is way cuter than the first.
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
Spoiler:
Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
Off-topic, but the second girl is way cuter than the first.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
I'm not saying it's right. Frankly, it disgusts me. There's a lot of things with 'nerd culture' which disgust me however.
I'm just stating what is reality, right or wrong, and remaining completely surprised at how anyone could be outraged by this as if it's just now hit the light of day.
AustonT wrote: Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
AustonT wrote: I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
These are pretty poor substitutes for an actual argument about why what a woman wears in any given situation justifies otherwise degrading behavior on the part of people interacting with her.
So could you please get down to brass tacks and tell me why you really think its okay to sexually harass women based on how they're dressed? I'm asking in good faith as I don't want to just assume that your thought on this matter really only goes as far as "whores should be treated like whores."
The problem isn't that the women who posted the incident was getting stares or comments, it was that some people decided it was ok to be rude to her and harass her because she chose to dress as a comic character and actually had the figure to pull it off. If you read what was said and done it was clear they were out of line, and went beyond just noticing she was wearing a 'sexy' outfit.
Indeed. Reds8n posted her own words as published on Bleeding Cool:
But seriously just want to clear up something: an experience being treated like that at Comic Con has never happened to me before, which is why I was compelled to post and discuss it here. The vast majority of men I’ve encountered show respect to me and other cosplaying women- they ask before posing with me, they often ask before taking a picture at all, they don’t make lewd or derogatory comments and they follow my (and most ladies’) basic rules on touching:Your hands can be on the places they’d be if I was your Mama- if you wouldn’t touch your Mama there, you won’t be touching me there. And it’s nice to know that 99% of men would not play grab-ass with their mamas!
If you’re one of the respectful guys, thank you for doing what you do and for making cons that much more enjoyable and fun for everyone- I truly appreciate it and you.
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
AustonT wrote: Stop harassing me! I just want to buy some cheese and some butter in my totally normal grocery store attire.
AustonT wrote: I enjoy comic books and came to comiccon not dressed as a whore.
These are pretty poor substitutes for an actual argument about why what a woman wears in any given situation justifies otherwise degrading behavior on the part of people interacting with her.
Really you came up with people touching your models and you think THOSE are poor substitutes? I'd be amazed if I didn't already know you.
So could you please get down to brass tacks and tell me why you really think its okay to sexually harass women based on how they're dressed?
I think chicks that go to comic cons dressed in skimpy outfits know what they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
Well, again, not condoning it, just really unsurprising. Frankly, the only thing here that caught me off guard was that this doesn't happen MORE. There's a lot of what I've seen at cons that I can only describe as animals someone bothered to clothe.
To be fair though, if you dress yourself up as what is obviously largely a sexual fantasy (i.e. an impractically skimpily clad woman), don't be surprised when people treat you like you're obviously a sexual fantasy.
Also, why the feth couldn't she just tell her cup size? I've had friends which I barely know tell me theirs...
Alternatively, she could've made a witty comment like 'tell me your size and I'll tell you mine'', and this would have defused the whole situation. She just seems to have put herself in a situation and not know how to navigate it properly.
I fear the slut quality control is slipping these days.
AustonT wrote: they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
They aren't inviting humiliation, or to be touched without permission, or verbally harassed, just like anyone else at the convention. They expect stares, to be stopped and asked for photos, and, oddly, to be treated with the same respect that everyone else there is expecting.
AustonT wrote: they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
They aren't inviting humiliation, or to be touched without permission, or verbally harassed, just like anyone else at the convention. They expect stares, to be stopped and asked for photos, and, oddly, to be treated with the same respect that everyone else there is expecting.
Im sure when they unzip their latex half way they look in the mirror and say "Today I will be respected."
AustonT wrote: Really you came up with people touching your models and you think THOSE are poor substitutes?
As noted on the tin, I used the example to emphasize the objectification that was already being assumed. It's transparently petty to ignore that so I'll assume it sailed over your head despite having made it explicit.
AustonT wrote: I think chicks that go to comic cons dressed in skimpy outfits know what they are inviting, and shouldn't be surprised when they get it. It's like the dudes from dancing bear complaining about sexual harrasment, ok maybe chippendale's would be better.
daedalus wrote: To be fair though, if you dress yourself up as what is obviously largely a sexual fantasy (i.e. an impractically skimpily clad woman), don't be surprised when people treat you like you're obviously a sexual fantasy.
The problem isn't that she was surprised, although she was. (According to her, the vast majority of men who actually attend comic conventions are apparently more respectful of women than either of you.) The issue is that the probability of someone acting like a scuzzbag doesn't really have anything whatsoever to do with its justification.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kovnik Obama wrote: She just seems to have put herself in a situation and not know how to navigate it properly.
I fear the slut quality control is slipping these days.
Sometimes I can't take Chongara seriously. Then I read stuff like this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AustonT wrote: Im sure when they unzip their latex half way they look in the mirror and say "Today I will be respected."
No, clearly they say "maybe today's the day that AustonT will finally notice me and maybe even cop a feel."
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
The rub is whether or not she would still be complaining if she got that kind of attention from a bunch of men whom she thought were very attractive. I would say she was looking for attention, and just became pissed off and disgusted when it wasn't from the kind of people she wanted it to be. Otherwise I assume she would have played coy instead of angry.
I see this with girls at clubs all the time. If you're hot it's not unwanted attention, if you're not it is.
AustonT wrote: Im sure when they unzip their latex half way they look in the mirror and say "Today I will be respected."
I know I do. I don't understand how dressing as Catwoman for a comic convention means you can be gak on and treated as more of an animal and less of a person. I can recognize that a person can be sexy and still be a person at the same time. It really isn't that difficult.
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
The rub is whether or not she would still be complaining if she got that kind of attention from a bunch of men whom she thought were very attractive. I would say she was looking for attention, and just became pissed off and disgusted when it wasn't from the kind of people she wanted it to be. Otherwise I assume she would have played coy instead of angry.
I see this with girls at clubs all the time. If you're hot it's not unwanted attention, if you're not it is.
Ratbarf wrote: I see this with girls at clubs all the time. If you're hot it's not unwanted attention, if you're not it is.
I don't think that is relevant to this situation AT ALL. There's nothing on the face of this situation to lead us to believe she'd welcome the cup size question from any other stranger. So there's an assumption at play here -- ask yourself what it is.
Manchu wrote: The problem isn't that she was surprised, although she was. (According to her, the vast majority of men who actually attend comic conventions are apparently more respectful of women than either of you.)
That's... almost accusatory. I do not believe I've ever been disrespectful of women. I'm just completely unsurprised that others are, especially when they present themselves as an object of sexual fantasy. Objectify yourself, and others will too.
The issue is that the probability of someone acting like a scuzzbag doesn't really have anything whatsoever to do with its justification.
Quite, but we all already knew that. See step 1. Especially the bit about social ineptitude
What a load of sexist, patriarchal, misogynistic bs, Manchu and maybe one other person excepted. If Manchu wasn't already in this thread, I'd have reported the lot of you for offensive language. I mean, we've got slut-shaming, victim blaming (including from a poster that appears to be a woman, at which the mind boggles), and even a touch of 'what about the menz'.
Attitudes and thoughts like the ones expressed by mattyrm, AustonT et al are the reason women don't game as much. They have every right to go to a con in whatever the hell outfit they choose, for whatever reason they choose, just as you do, without being subjected to this kind of vile harassment. It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
I'm just gonna repeat that last bit, in case you missed it the first time round:
It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
Mind you, I'm not defending them, just chuckling at the ridicule of the whole situation:
Using the lovely mother analogy... what would happen if you touched "your momma's" ass or if she EVEN sensed you were THINKING about it?... It usually would go SLAP, no? I doubt someone's mother would run off and whine about it in the news...
There is always the probability of some arse going way overboard in his actions when confronted with an atractive woman in skimpy clothing, and no I do not condone those actions.
Heresy begets Retribution... and sometimes a kick in the nuts.
I don't think that is relevant to this situation AT ALL. There's nothing on the face of this situation to lead us to believe she'd welcome the cup size question from any other stranger. So there's an assumption at play here -- ask yourself what it is.
That women like the attention of men they find attractive? And that cup size is a common flirting technique?
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Yes. Ignore google translator 90% of the time with Latin phrases.
According to a Latin teacher I know: Culpa victimum
Attitudes and thoughts like the ones expressed by mattyrm, daedalus et al are the reason women don't game as much. They have every right to go to a con in whatever the hell outfit they choose, for whatever reason they choose, just as you do, without being subjected to this kind of vile harassment. It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
Heh, what if the roles were reversed? I mean, if I show up to comicon in a speedo or what have you, I expect to be objectified, hell, that's possibly what I'm looking for. For me to then get angry when a bunch of fat girls ask me how long my schlong is kind of hypocritical. I mean, they can clearly see it, it's a speedo.
Manchu wrote: The problem isn't that she was surprised, although she was. (According to her, the vast majority of men who actually attend comic conventions are apparently more respectful of women than either of you.)
That's... almost accusatory. I do not believe I've ever been disrespectful of women. I'm just completely unsurprised that others are, especially when they present themselves as an object of sexual fantasy. Objectify yourself, and others will too.
You're right, maybe I did make an assumption about your argument so let's set the record straight here:
When you say you are not surprised that someone acted this way to her, are you saying that
(1) after all, some people are totally awful
-OR-
(2) after all, she totally had it coming
?
From what you've said so far*, I'd guess you mean both. Trouble is, the second option there totally overwhelms the first: "awful people are awful to people who deserve it."
*As in this:
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Yes. Ignore google translator 90% of the time with Latin phrases.
According to a Latin teacher I know: Culpa victimum
I'll keep that in mind, also, I just wanted an excuse to post this slightly OT video.
Ratbarf wrote: Heh, what if the roles were reversed? I mean, if I show up to comicon in a speedo or what have you, I expect to be objectified, hell, that's possibly what I'm looking for. For me to then get angry when a bunch of fat girls ask me how long my schlong is kind of hypocritical. I mean, they can clearly see it, it's a speedo.
So you've made up a ridiculous situation out of nothing and expect that to be an argument in a discussion about reality?
Attitudes and thoughts like the ones expressed by mattyrm, daedalus et al are the reason women don't game as much. They have every right to go to a con in whatever the hell outfit they choose, for whatever reason they choose, just as you do, without being subjected to this kind of vile harassment. It is not a woman's fault if a man is sexist towards her, it is the man's fault for being sexist towards her.
Heh, what if the roles were reversed? I mean, if I show up to comicon in a speedo or what have you, I expect to be objectified, hell, that's possibly what I'm looking for. For me to then get angry when a bunch of fat girls ask me how long my schlong is kind of hypocritical. I mean, they can clearly see it, it's a speedo.
Except she didn't just wear a Speedo, which isn't a costume by the way, she wore a costume. The questions should have been about the costume.
@Manchu: See, the argument I got from him was neither of those, but that women will let men they think are attractive treat them badly, but not ones they are attracted to. Essentially women are mean to most men, but will tolerate rich or handsome men to get attention.
From what you've said so far, I'd guess you mean both. Trouble is, the second option there totally overwhelms the first: "awful people are awful to people who deserve it."
I'm trying to say that most people are totally awful. That's the fundamental issue here. It's not her fault that most people are totally awful. I'm courteous to women to a fault.
I just don't understand why you would put yourself in the lion's den assuming you knew that some people (who are stereotypical for that kind of venue) are totally awful.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I wouldn't dress like that, were I an attractive con-going female.
I also blame myself if I forget to lock my car doors and get my car cleaned out. I assume that, until proven otherwise, every person I encounter is an exemplary paragon of everything bad in humanity, until proven otherwise.
When I was tournamenting in Austin a few times back when dinosaurs roamed, the Wife would show up around lunchtime with lunch. The crowd would just stop for a second.
I like seeing half naked chicks in "artistic" costumes at GenCon.
If some mouth-breathing feth-tards ruin that by chasing away the pretty ladies by harassing and/or groping them, I'm going to have to start forming a posse.
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Dude, no.
First, even attractive women can like comic books. Second, cosplay necessarily entails histrionic or narcissistic motives to the same extent that table top gaming necessarily entails paraphilic infantilism -- i.e., not at all.
Since you are well down the path of objectification, I don't mind using this example: Let's say you have a GD-quality army for 40k or Fantasy on display at a con and some dude comes over and starts fondling your models. I guess you had it coming since you only brought that army out in public to get attention. Now, imagine we're not talking about pieces of plastic pretty much entirely disassociated from you and that same douche from the hypothetical started treating your person like an attractive toy.
Thats not a fair comparison. The fair comparison would be some dude scomes over and just obsessively stares at them, and/or makes a rude comment to them. Remember boys: ogling is not battery. What Dad does to you after seeing you ogling his daughter, is.
Frazz, by all means, go into dad mode on this one to understand reason. Situation is, a few years out, some guy asks GC her cup size while a bunch of other dudes hoot and holler.
Ahtman wrote: The problem isn't that the women who posted the incident was getting stares or comments, it was that some people decided it was ok to be rude to her and harass her because she chose to dress as a comic character and actually had the figure to pull it off. If you read what was said and done it was clear they were out of line, and went beyond just noticing she was wearing a 'sexy' outfit.
All she ha to do was slap him and the problem is solved. Plus she might have gotten a round of applause. Come on wimminz, be fierce!
Manchu wrote: Indeed. Reds8n posted her own words as published on Bleeding Cool:
But seriously just want to clear up something: an experience being treated like that at Comic Con has never happened to me before, which is why I was compelled to post and discuss it here. The vast majority of men I’ve encountered show respect to me and other cosplaying women- they ask before posing with me, they often ask before taking a picture at all, they don’t make lewd or derogatory comments and they follow my (and most ladies’) basic rules on touching:Your hands can be on the places they’d be if I was your Mama- if you wouldn’t touch your Mama there, you won’t be touching me there. And it’s nice to know that 99% of men would not play grab-ass with their mamas!
If you’re one of the respectful guys, thank you for doing what you do and for making cons that much more enjoyable and fun for everyone- I truly appreciate it and you.
Do any of you really want to defend the guys she's actually complaining about? Really???
As Ahtman noted.
1. Oggling, hey dem's de breaks.
2. verbal comments or touching, thats completel unacceptable and requires a response. As noted a nice backhand should do fine.
remember, ancient budha say: if you see a naked man running down the street, you should start running too. Anything that can make a man run buck naked down the street is something worth running from.
daedalus wrote: I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I wouldn't dress like that, were I an attractive con-going female.
Wait but hold on, let's listen to what the woman herself has to say. This is NOT how she is usually treated at cons.
Which, frankly, blows me away. Again, how little I think of the kinds of people I see at cons.
According to her experience at least, her being sexy isn't taken by most or even many comic con attendees as a license to say/do whatever they want to her. But why does that matter? Whether people actually do treat this woman or similarly situated women badly should have nothing to do with whether they should.
Ahtman wrote: Essentially women are mean to most men, but will tolerate rich or handsome men to get attention.
But his first comment was that she wanted attention from unattractive, socially inept men.
I think I was confusing Ratbarf's and Daedalus's statements.
Well, while we're on the subject, I think the implication of ratbarf's argument is that there's no such thing as a per se offensive statement. The tack seems to be that offense is something relevant only to the particular situation, or phrased much more poorly, something that the victim decides. A handsome, rich man asking her bra size while a bunch of other dudes carried on is hypothetically not offensive -- if she liked it. So, in other words, is it sexual harassment if she doesn't complain? According to definitions with which I'm familiar, one of the elements of sexual harassment is "unwanted." So we have the same kind of ambiguity as surrounds rape. And a lot of this discussion is reminding me of the talks on OT about rape.
Frazz, by all means, go into dad mode on this one to understand reason. Situation is, a few years out, some guy asks GC her cup size while a bunch of other dudes hoot and holler.
(see later posts - we're in agreement I think).
Oggling - Grr but not that actionable.
comments or touching -CRY HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE WIENER DOGS OF WAR!
Frazz, by all means, go into dad mode on this one to understand reason. Situation is, a few years out, some guy asks GC her cup size while a bunch of other dudes hoot and holler.
(see later posts - we're in agreement I think).
Oggling - Grr but not that actionable.
comments or touching -CRY HAVOC AND LET SLIP THE WIENER DOGS OF WAR!
I figured that trying to slip wieners would be part of the problem here...
At Comic Con today, I went as Black Cat. This is a gakky picture and there will be better ones of my whole costume coming up but I just want to say something.
Black Cat’s costume has a fair amount of cleavage (conservative compared to many other female comic characters but a good amount as far as what I’ve ever shown). I guess I was not surprised to have a couple men ask to pose with me and then do some doofy “WHOA LOOK AT THOSE KNOCKERS” poses. I just make a really ugly face when I see they’re doing it. One guy with the social graces of a lemur said to me “I was this close to wearing that same outfit. My breasts are large and supple and I think it would have been nice.” Nope. Stop talking.
Wut? 0_o No wonder she had such an averse reaction. That gak is creepy as feth.
Thing is, I'm not saying the blokes were not proper dickless losers.. that fat guy doing the interview sounds like a total ball-bag. Who thinks acting like that impresses women? I mean, I would try and pick her up maybe.. and anyone with a brain knows the best way to do that is be nice, crack the occasional joke and then ask her is she fancies a drink afterwards, not ask her to slap your ass and act like a juvenile, but what I'm getting at is, he DIDNT assault her, and he didn't grope her either! He basically said some ridiculous gak and asked her to slap his ass.
I'm not defending the bloke, I'm just saying she is being ridiculous as well, and obviously loves attention, hence the media, and going dressed as black cat anyway. Ergo, your groping analogies are unfair!
Here is a fair one, if I was at a con dressed in my spiderman costume and ten girls all came over (rare as feth no doubt at comic cons so Ill intent a website) from .. I don't know.. comicbookbirds.com
And then one of them said "Hey spidey, grab one of my tits and pose for a photo" and I said "er.. Im not very comfortable with that" and then one shouts "Ok, how big is your dick!?" and they all start laughing. Now, this is common in the UK (Hen parties are worse than stag-dos!) and the usual thing a bloke does is grin, and then quickly feth off. If I was in the above situation, I would of course, not be bothered at all and shrug it off. I would reply "Its about as big as a AAA battery" and then feth off to the pub.
Is there any need to kick up a fuss? Why not just answer his gak question and then get on with your life/get annoyed when he actually does start fully sexually harassing or groping you?
I'm just saying, I don't really think he was anything other than a really sad corny bastard trying to pull a fit bird. He certainly didnt grope, assault, or do anything majorly inappropropriate. If he slapped her ass, instead of merely requesting a slap for example, thats a line crossed.. but as it stands I just see it as a fat unfunny fether showing off in front of people and doing a really gak job of trying to impress a bird!
I don't think there needs to be a rulebook that everyone checks before they can legitimately feel awkward and offended. Can you sympathize with this woman feeling grossed out and denigrated in this particular situation or not?
Manchu wrote: I don't think there needs to be a rulebook that everyone checks before they can legitimately feel awkward and offended. Can you sympathize with this woman feeling grossed out and denigrated in this particular situation or not?
Manchu wrote: I don't think there needs to be a rulebook that everyone checks before they can legitimately feel awkward and offended. Can you sympathize with this woman feeling grossed out and denigrated in this particular situation or not?
I can understand feeling grossed out, not denigrated. It feels good when people know you are attractive right?
For example.. I was once in a gay bar in Sydney, basically because I was after shagging this mint bird who wanted to go with two gay blokes.. anyway, the bar was cheap, I had a good time, several men came onto me, and at one point a massive black dude with a strong accent actually stomped over and said "I really like you mon!" and tried to kiss me really aggressively, to the point that his bottom lip brushed against my fething chin as I jerked away from the bloke and went "arg!"
Anyway, I was grossed out sure, but I didn't feel bad or denigrated...same on that hen do I told you about ages ago where loads of chicks were acting like savages and one grabbed my bollocks! Its great when people fancy you regardless of your interest in them. Sure its better if you like them cos then you get some action... but even if they are ugly woman or men, it far from makes you feel bad... its nice to know people find you attractive regardless, so why on earth get butt hurt about it? Clearly she likes being the centre of attention, and the knowledge that she could feth 90% of the men in the building.
Im aware that it IS somewhat different for women obviously, but the point stands. It was hardly an awful experience, and possibly even slightly gratifying if she hated the guy and knew he wanted to shag her and she was safe in the knowledge she could walk off and basically go "feth you loser"
AustonT wrote: I don't feel an iota of pity or sympathy for the plight of this woman.
Right, I'm not interested in convincing you to do otherwise. I just want to know if you have a reason for this and if so, is it your previously stated "she shouldn't be surprised so I don't care" argument or something else?
mattyrm wrote: It feels good when people know you are attractive right?
No, I don't think it's that simple. I don't think whether or not people want to do sexual things to you quite translates into the sort of acknowledgment of attractiveness that generally feels good.
I now have script to write on *Crowe's Pimp Wagon Thanks to this thread,
*Crowe's Pimp Wagon: A GK Stormlord designated as Castellan Crowe's personal transportation. Amenities include a Hot Tub, Sauna, a dozen Sororites that are all licensed Massusses, and a stage upon which the Goff Rokkas give performances.
@Ahtman: To what extent, if at all, do you think the fellow in question thought "you reap what you sow" as he began the interview? In all sincerity, do you think this is more of a post hoc justification or something that creates the possibility for that kind of rudeness in the first place?
I would lean toward Post Hoc Justification. I think they just wanted to screw with a pretty girl, and really any reason they could come up with would have done. It is easier to be an donkey-cave if you can justify it by putting the blame on the other person.
"I wouldn't have killed it and made a dress of it's skin if it wasn't walking around wearing such nice skin" - Buffalo Bill ~Silence of the Lambs
It would have been far different if the guy in question had been tall, muscled and chisel jawed.
It's a pathetic double standard and if the woman in question had wanted more limited male attention, there are thousands of uniforms and costumes that would have allowed this. She wanted attention, dressed in a highly provocative way and to feel good about being admired but had established herself a set of rules of conduct that someone overstepped.
Is the guy who did this a jackass? Absolutely.
Is the girl entitled to shout loudly about it? Hardly. It's the same as wearing something risque to a nightclub and getting hit on by a guy that was 'creepy' or 'awkward'. It was an unpleasant experience which she should have dealt with and moved on.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It would have been far different if the guy in question had been tall, muscled and chisel jawed.
When you are done with your Orb of Absolute Knowledge of Incidents That Didn't Occur can you share it with the rest of us? Some people, even men, have self-confidence and are also self assured, and wouldn't take abuse from anyone, regardless* of thier looks.
*I really wanted to put irregardless just to watch heads pop off, but I didn't.
Isn't comic con usually filled with hot chicks in skimpy outfits? I mean not that they're fans or anything, but a lot of the booths/companies advertising there hire them. Surprised this finally made it an issue.
Well despite the attitudes ITT, men-at-cons (similar to men-at-arms) are apparently not usually utter creeps even in the presence of sexy ladies. And when one gives it even a little thought, one reasons that this is perhaps why sexy ladies are not uncommonly found at cons, too. Go figure, girls come around when they're not constantly made uncomfortable by weirdos. The things one learns!
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
It's one thing when someone has a unpleasant experience due to a case of minor stupidity or naivity and another thing entirely for walking into a horn dog convention dressed as the nicest hot dog bun to ever walk the planet.
I dont think anyone is really advocating that its ok to sexually harass anyone, but this is the real world. Some people are dicks. I wonder if all the people white-knighting this woman REALLY believe she was surprised by any of this behavior. It doesn't make it out ok to be abusive to her, but again, this is life.
What did she think was going to come out of wearing a revealing costume at a convention full of awkward men? Oh wait a news story thats right.. Part of me wonders if she is even really a fan or just looking for attention. Considering the majority of attractive women at these conventions are paid models, methinks it may be the latter.
Again, harassment, not cool. But if you wear a suit made of honey in the woods, dont be surprised when your attacked by a bear. Common sense here.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
Yes. Ignore google translator 90% of the time with Latin phrases.
According to a Latin teacher I know: Culpa victimum
That's going on... I dunno something, probably a dreadnought or a Immolator
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
It's one thing when someone has a unpleasant experience due to a case of minor stupidity or naivity and another thing entirely for walking into a horn dog convention dressed as the nicest hot dog bun to ever walk the planet.
That argument might hold water we accept that comic book fans are unable to control themselves in a way that all others are unable and we also ignore the far greater trend of people being respectful as opposed to being churlish.
Comic book fans = horn dogs and social misfits apparently. It is nice to see a gaming forum stereotype other enthusiasts (though, lets face it, the ven diagram for Wahammer and comics has a pretty good crossover) with great relish while also making denigrating women for wanting to look and feel good about themselves.
LordofHats wrote: It's one thing when someone has a unpleasant experience due to a case of minor stupidity or naivity and another thing entirely for walking into a horn dog convention dressed as the nicest hot dog bun to ever walk the planet.
So if anything, he should have raped her even? I mean, clearly it's just common sense:
DutchKillsRambo wrote: But if you wear a suit made of honey in the woods, dont be surprised when your attacked by a bear. Common sense here.
Better example: If I leave a lot of high value items in plain view in my car and park it in a bad neighborhood, should I be surprised when my car is broken into? Surely the thief bears the most blame, but I am also not responsible somewhat for being an idiot?
LordofHats wrote: It's one thing when someone has a unpleasant experience due to a case of minor stupidity or naivity and another thing entirely for walking into a horn dog convention dressed as the nicest hot dog bun to ever walk the planet.
So if anything, he should have raped her even? I mean, clearly it's just common sense:
DutchKillsRambo wrote: But if you wear a suit made of honey in the woods, dont be surprised when your attacked by a bear. Common sense here.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
It's one thing when someone has a unpleasant experience due to a case of minor stupidity or naivity and another thing entirely for walking into a horn dog convention dressed as the nicest hot dog bun to ever walk the planet.
That argument might hold water we accept that comic book fans are unable to control themselves in a way that all others are unable and we also ignore the far greater trend of people being respectful as opposed to being churlish.
Comic book fans = horn dogs and social misfits apparently. It is nice to see a gaming forum stereotype other enthusiasts (though, lets face it, the ven diagram for Wahammer and comics has a pretty good crossover) with great relish while also making denigrating women for wanting to look and feel good about themselves.
Thats why wimminz shouldn't go to comic book conventions. They should stay at biker bars, monster truck rallies, and spring break events, where the men are more civilized and recognize women for their inherent beauty.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Better example: If I leave a lot of high value items in plain view in my car and park it in a bad neighborhood, should I be surprised when my car is broken into?
So when we catch the guy who broke into your car, we do what? Let him go? Maybe punish you somehow?
I'm still waiting for a better example. Certainly there was a sentence that followed this statement, but considering how wrong headed it was, I have to assume it isn't the example you originally were thinking of, and a bizarre tangent.
Manchu wrote: Does anyone know how to say "blame the victim" in Latin? I'd like to have it carved over the door. Also, might look nice on a Land Raider.
That argument might hold water we accept that comic book fans are unable to control themselves in a way that all others are unable and we also ignore the far greater trend of people being respectful as opposed to being churlish.
.
But she even says that most people are respectful at these cons. But a few weren't. So whats her argument? Some people are childish donkey-caves? Congratulations she figured out not everyone in the world is nice. Here's your degree from kindergarten.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Better example: If I leave a lot of high value items in plain view in my car and park it in a bad neighborhood, should I be surprised when my car is broken into?
So when we catch the guy who broke into your car, we do what? Let him go? Maybe punish you somehow?
Given that she was wearing a provocative outfit in a place where some are celebrating their love of oversexed Anime characters, it could be safe to assume she wants to act in character. Be all provocative and enjoy the attention.
The guys in question may have simply been playing along.
Its all about context really.
Would this be appropriate in public? Hell no.
Is it appropriate in a Comic-con? Maybe.
Of course many of these outfits would violate indecent exposure laws in public. Thussly, one would assume that a location where said outfits would be appropriate would also be an appropriate venue for a little sexual banter.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Better example: If I leave a lot of high value items in plain view in my car and park it in a bad neighborhood, should I be surprised when my car is broken into?
So when we catch the guy who broke into your car, we do what? Let him go? Maybe punish you somehow?
Metaphors of: hot dogs and buns and being attacked by a bear.
The bear thing is something my grandpa used to say about life in general pretty sure he didnt mean rape. And if you wouldnt have purposely misquoted me I said right after that the thief carries the most blame. But again I'll ask. In my example, do I not share some blame?
It wasn't an argument. She wasn't having a debate. She just told of a bad experience she had, and considering how all her other experiences had been positive. She was surprised that it happened, and I can understand her surprise. I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised how many people still hold the attitude that if a women dresses in a certain way she deserves what she gets.
It wasn't an argument. She wasn't having a debate. She just told of a bad experience she had, and considering how all her other experiences had been positive. She was surprised that it happened, and I can understand her surprise. I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised how many people still hold the attitude that if a women dresses in a certain way she deserves what she gets.
See your mistake is that anyone is saying she deserved it. Nobody is. Were all saying that its bs she was surprised. Its a PR stunt plain and simple.
If by "share some blame," you mean "have it coming," "deserve it," "that what was done to me is somewhat justified" ... uh, NO. Do I really need to tell you this?
DutchKillsRambo wrote:Better example: If I leave a lot of high value items in plain view in my car and park it in a bad neighborhood, should I be surprised when my car is broken into? Surely the thief bears the most blame, but I am also not responsible somewhat for being an idiot?
LordofHats wrote: It's one thing when someone has a unpleasant experience due to a case of minor stupidity or naivity and another thing entirely for walking into a horn dog convention dressed as the nicest hot dog bun to ever walk the planet.
So if anything, he should have raped her even? I mean, clearly it's just common sense:
DutchKillsRambo wrote: But if you wear a suit made of honey in the woods, dont be surprised when your attacked by a bear. Common sense here.
Where did you get rape from?
How will Manchu drum up his indignation without making you into a rape supporter?
Plonk.
Caruso isn’t a victim, she’s a provocateur. She is the interloper at a Weight Watchers convention who carries around an open bag of fried chicken and is outraged when a starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick. I’m sure the remarks about her body were boorish and inappropriate, and she either knew she was going to attract them, or should have known. If she is determined to dress like various Marvel anatomical marvels in a den of comic book geeks, she should be willing to cut the poor boys some slack when their jaws hit the floor. Not doing so is hypocrisy—”Look at me! Look at me ! Hey, buddy, what do you think you’re looking at?” as well as cruel. It also borders on entrapment. My guess is that the Comic Con attendees who offended her would never make such comments to a real woman in the real world, but mistakenly assumed that someone who dives into a fish tank dressed as bait is going to be accommodating to nibbles.
She was surprised because people don't usually treat her this was at cons. But she's not upset because of the surprise. The behavior is no better just because someone might reasonable expect it.
Caruso isn’t a victim, she’s a provocateur. She is the interloper at a Weight Watchers convention who carries around an open bag of fried chicken and is outraged when a starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick. I’m sure the remarks about her body were boorish and inappropriate, and she either knew she was going to attract them, or should have known. If she is determined to dress like various Marvel anatomical marvels in a den of comic book geeks, she should be willing to cut the poor boys some slack when their jaws hit the floor. Not doing so is hypocrisy—”Look at me! Look at me ! Hey, buddy, what do you think you’re looking at?” as well as cruel. It also borders on entrapment. My guess is that the Comic Con attendees who offended her would never make such comments to a real woman in the real world, but mistakenly assumed that someone who dives into a fish tank dressed as bait is going to be accommodating to nibbles.
If by "share some blame," you mean "have it coming," "deserve it," "that what was done to me is somewhat justified" ... uh, NO. Do I really need to tell you this?
Ok Im not saying justified. Im saying if I did leave money out in my car in a bad neighborhood, can I really be surprised when it gets broken into? Your hung up on justification or deserving. Im not saying its ever deserved. But if you make poor decisions they can come back on you.
And before you get bent out of shape and try to turn this into a rape thing, stop. Its not. She wasnt raped. She had socially awkward weirdos make rude comments. Your trying to connect comments about this situation into something bigger than it is. Getting raped and having an idiot clumsily hit on you are so far different its not even funny.
AustonT wrote: How will Manchu drum up his indignation without making you into a rape supporter?
Try and pay attention. One metaphor ITT was that the con-goers were like hot dogs and the woman was a hot dog bun. Another one was that the con-goers were like bears and the woman was wearing a suit made out of honey. There is a beat to this tune but it's not coming from my drum.
I love how a bunch of internet dwelling gamers are referring to people who might dare go to a comic convention, described as a "horn dog convention", as "starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick".
If people talked about gamers that way you'd be throwing fits about stereotyping gamers.
AustonT wrote: How will Manchu drum up his indignation without making you into a rape supporter?
Try and pay attention. One metaphor ITT was that the con-goers were like hot dogs and the woman was a hot dog bun. Another one was that the con-goers were like bears and the woman was wearing a suit made out of honey. There is a beat to this tune but it's not coming from my drum.
Im sorry but your the one trying to connect the threads here. Maybe you see RAPEEEEEEEEE!!!!! at every metaphor, but you were also the first person to even bring it up so.
AustonT wrote: How will Manchu drum up his indignation without making you into a rape supporter?
Try and pay attention. One metaphor ITT was that the con-goers were like hot dogs and the woman was a hot dog bun. Another one was that the con-goers were like bears and the woman was wearing a suit made out of honey. There is a beat to this tune but it's not coming from my drum.
The first time I heard about this I thought Lions and a meat suit; that doesn't make it a rape metaphor. It about putting yourself in a position. If you walk down MLK boulevard in any major city in the US with a sandwich board proclaiming your disgust for insert obiligitory racial slur, your brutal beating is inevitable. Don't blog about it. Would you like to make that into a rape scenario?
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Getting raped and having an idiot clumsily hit on you are so far different its not even funny.
And yet the rhetoric is exactly the same. Like Auston just posted, echoing your own sentiment, men are basically wild animals who cannot control their hard-wired bio-imperatives. So if a woman decides to throw herself in the way of that, "we can't be surprised" if there are bad results.
There is so much wrong with that, it's hard to know where to begin. Men aren't unthinking animals. And women aren't throwing themselves into the teeth of unthinking animals. What does it matter one way or another if anyone is surprised by any bad act?
Ahtman wrote: I love how a bunch of internet dwelling gamers are referring to people who might dare go to a comic convention, described as a "horn dog convention", as "starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick".
If people talked about gamers that way you'd be throwing fits about stereotyping gamers.
I don't differentiate between comic attendees or gamers.
Taken as a whole, it's the same thing. That's a venn diagram with TONS of overlap.
Ahtman wrote: I love how a bunch of internet dwelling gamers are referring to people who might dare go to a comic convention, described as a "horn dog convention", as "starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick".
If people talked about gamers that way you'd be throwing fits about stereotyping gamers.
No a lot of those stereotypes are true. I know this is the internet where everybody is 6'4" 250lbs and pulls girls left and right but anybody that has been to a con knows that theres a lot of social misfits there.
Manchu wrote: So if anything, he should have raped her even? I mean, clearly it's just common sense:
I'm not talking about extremes or saying its acceptable. Blame the victim isn't inherently an invalid thing to do. It's like people who complain about the government but never vote in an election. Sure they can complain they should be listened to if their concerns carry legitimate value, but I'm still going to call them bleeding morons of the fifth degree.
In other words:
”Look at me! Look at me ! Hey, buddy, what do you think you’re looking at?”
Dress as Felicia Hardy of all characters, and something like this is bound to happen eventually. It finally happened and she's offended? Someone lost their Obviously Gonna Happen Sooner or Later Club membership card. Lets not even go into Black Canary or heaven forbid... classic Wonder Woman (we need a bondage joke, someone think fast!). If you don't want to be offended don't go into a position where you will be offended.
kronk wrote: I don't differentiate between comic attendees or gamers.
Taken as a whole, it's the same thing. That's a venn diagram with TONS of overlap.
I agree, which makes the condescending remarks about it being a convention full of males that, gosh darn it, just can't control themselves around the women folk, that much more sad.
Ahtman wrote: I love how a bunch of internet dwelling gamers are referring to people who might dare go to a comic convention, described as a "horn dog convention", as "starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick".
If people talked about gamers that way you'd be throwing fits about stereotyping gamers.
Ahtman wrote: I love how a bunch of internet dwelling gamers are referring to people who might dare go to a comic convention, described as a "horn dog convention", as "starving attendee tries to snag a drumstick".
If people talked about gamers that way you'd be throwing fits about stereotyping gamers.
Not really, I could go for a drumstick.I can always go for a game of hide the hotdog.
AustonT wrote: If you walk down MLK boulevard in any major city in the US with a sandwich board proclaiming your disgust for insert obiligitory racial slur, your brutal beating is inevitable.
Regarding the alleged inevitable outcome, so what? And how is a woman dressing in a sexy outfit anything like being a loud racist?
LordofHats wrote: Blame the victim isn't inherently an invalid thing to do.
Regardless of all possible cases, we have one to hand where it is totally invalid. Again, her complaint wasn't that people gave her attention. It's not like all attention must be the same. There's respectful and disrespectful attention. I mean you do see a difference between what he said to her and some other guy saying "hey, can I have a picture with you, I really like your costume, thanks, bye"?
Desperate men are pathetic and gross. So if a dude walks in with some fake muscles and a gay dude runs up and starts asking his dick size or talking how he wants to blow him, that's okay too right? None of you would be bothered by it? Sexism is great :/
Edit: I think we're old enough to be past the sentiment of "well, she looks like a slut so it's okay to treat her like gak!"
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Getting raped and having an idiot clumsily hit on you are so far different its not even funny.
And yet the rhetoric is exactly the same. Like Auston just posted, echoing your own sentiment, men are basically wild animals who cannot control their hard-wired bio-imperatives. So if a woman decides to throw herself in the way of that, "we can't be surprised" if there are bad results.
There is so much wrong with that, it's hard to know where to begin. Men aren't unthinking animals. And women aren't throwing themselves into the teeth of unthinking animals. What does it matter one way or another if anyone is surprised by any bad act?
Stop grabbing at straws. Its not related. Are you really gonna stand here and say SOME men arent basically animals? That there aren't disgusting pigs of human beings out there? That anyone doesn't know this? Nobody is saying its ok. But its part of life that will probably never change. You put a pair of tits in front of some guys and it changes them. Not justified, never is. But it happens. Crime is never justified. But it happens. There is no way that in her what looks to me about mid 20's is this the first time she's had a guy say rude things to her. She's looking for media attention now plain and simple.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Desperate men are pathetic and gross. So if a dude walks in with some fake muscles and a gay dude runs up and starts asking his dick size or talking how he wants to blow him, that's okay too right? None of you would be bothered by it? Sexism is great :/
AustonT wrote: What you meant to say was how are they different.
No, I am asking you why you think a woman in a comic book character costume at a comic book convention is like a loud, obnoxious racist in a minority neighborhood.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Edit: I think we're old enough to be past the sentiment of "well, she looks like a slut so it's okay to treat her like gak!"
You would think so, but here are several pages that prove otherwise.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Are you really gonna stand here and say SOME men arent basically animals?
That's not at issue. Your claim is that women should expect bad treatment because some people might treat them badly. The correct answer is that people who treat women badly are the problem, not the women who are treated badly.
Manchu wrote: I mean you do see a difference between what he said to her and some other guy saying "hey, can I have a picture with you, I really like your costume, thanks, bye"?
You know I do, and I've already said that's not my point. 'Blame the victim' shouldn't be an instant scape goat for her to absolve herself of any and all responsibility when this sort of thing happens. Dress as this person:
And it WILL happen. There is one person in the clear wrong in this situation, and another person being upset over milk they spilled themselves.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Desperate men are pathetic and gross. So if a dude walks in with some fake muscles and a gay dude runs up and starts asking his dick size or talking how he wants to blow him, that's okay too right? None of you would be bothered by it? Sexism is great :/
Edit: I think we're old enough to be past the sentiment of "well, she looks like a slut so it's okay to treat her like gak!"
Its not sexism its numbers. Theres just not as many gay guys as straight at these cons. You all act like rude comments never get said to anyone. And from my experiences with the gay community a lot of them are that forward. Thats how some guys think they can score a mate.
And again, nobody is saying its ok to treat someone like gak. But it happens. Either deal or dont go outside.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Desperate men are pathetic and gross. So if a dude walks in with some fake muscles and a gay dude runs up and starts asking his dick size or talking how he wants to blow him, that's okay too right? None of you would be bothered by it? Sexism is great :/
Edit: I think we're old enough to be past the sentiment of "well, she looks like a slut so it's okay to treat her like gak!"
Its not sexism its numbers. Theres just not as many gay guys as straight at these cons. You all act like rude comments never get said to anyone. And from my experiences with the gay community a lot of them are that forward. Thats how some guys think they can score a mate.
And again, nobody is saying its ok to treat someone like gak. But it happens. Either deal or dont go outside.
Hmm, gay stereotyping too. What a nihilistic world you live in.
Eventually anything and everything will happen everywhere and anywhere. It is a big universe and a long time line. "It will happen eventually" isn't a very good defense for gakky behavior.
AustonT wrote: What you meant to say was how are they different.
No, I am asking you why you think a woman in a comic book character costume at a comic book convention is like a loud, obnoxious racist in a minority neighborhood.
You can jump from honey and bears to rape but you can't connect the dots here?
Manchu wrote: LoH, whether something bad does or does not happen does nothing to justify it.
Actions can have obvious outcomes. This should have been expected. Anyone who doesn't expect it is either completely out of touch with reality, or a complete moron.
EDIT: Then again, I'm paranoid with no faith in human decency
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Are you really gonna stand here and say SOME men arent basically animals?
That's not at issue. Your claim is that women should expect bad treatment because some people might treat them badly. The correct answer is that people who treat women badly are the problem, not the women who are treated badly.
And yes that is my claim. There are bad people out there in the world. This is not new. She's in her 20's. She knows this. She's looking for attention on a non issue. Up next at 11, strippers are being objectified around America!
Ahtman wrote: Eventually anything and everything will happen everywhere and anywhere. It is a big universe and a long time line. "It will happen eventually" isn't a very good defense for gakky behavior.
Thats either very deep, or stolen from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Or both.
AustonT wrote: What you meant to say was how are they different.
No, I am asking you why you think a woman in a comic book character costume at a comic book convention is like a loud, obnoxious racist in a minority neighborhood.
You can jump from honey and bears to rape but you can't connect the dots here?
So I can take it you don't have a good reason as to why comparing a person dressed as a comic book character to a person shouting racial epithets is justified and apt?
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: It wasn't the pedophiles fault those school kids wore their darling uniforms. He had to run over and tell them how pretty they were.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Desperate men are pathetic and gross. So if a dude walks in with some fake muscles and a gay dude runs up and starts asking his dick size or talking how he wants to blow him, that's okay too right? None of you would be bothered by it? Sexism is great :/
Edit: I think we're old enough to be past the sentiment of "well, she looks like a slut so it's okay to treat her like gak!"
Its not sexism its numbers. Theres just not as many gay guys as straight at these cons. You all act like rude comments never get said to anyone. And from my experiences with the gay community a lot of them are that forward. Thats how some guys think they can score a mate.
And again, nobody is saying its ok to treat someone like gak. But it happens. Either deal or dont go outside.
Hmm, gay stereotyping too. What a nihilistic world you live in.
Its stereotyping to say "In my experiences"? How exactly? Oh right its not. Your really gonna say that a lot of guys gay or straight aren't extremely forward when hitting on potential mates?
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: It wasn't the pedophiles fault those school kids wore their darling uniforms. He had to run over and tell them how pretty they were.
Exalted!
Would anyone here honestly walk up to either a booth babe or a con attendee wearing a skimpy outfit and ask her for her cup size? Honestly?
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: It wasn't the pedophiles fault those school kids wore their darling uniforms. He had to run over and tell them how pretty they were.
Not even remotely related. Were talking about adults here. And also I dont believe its a crime for a paedo to tell a child their uniform was cute.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: It wasn't the pedophiles fault those school kids wore their darling uniforms. He had to run over and tell them how pretty they were.
Not even remotely related. Were talking about adults here. And also I dont believe its a crime for a paedo to tell a child their uniform was cute.
It is if that offender is in the system and violating a distance restriction.
AustonT wrote: What you meant to say was how are they different.
No, I am asking you why you think a woman in a comic book character costume at a comic book convention is like a loud, obnoxious racist in a minority neighborhood.
You can jump from honey and bears to rape but you can't connect the dots here?
So I can take it you don't have a good reason as to why comparing a person dressed as a comic book character to a person shouting racial epithets is justified and apt?
Obvious outcomes are obvious. The example is both justified and apt. You and Machu can't defend a racist on the streets, you should save your indignation for someone who puts themself in an obvious position and cries foul.
Its also no really applicable as a comparison. No one expects an adult to want to rape their kid (though as Monty Python taught me long ago, expect the unexpected), but a woman dressed in a sexy outfit in a highly populated area with a lot of men, should expect that some of them are probably gonna be douche bags. Hell, men are probably douche bags to her when she is in everyday clothes from time to time. Hell x2, people will be douche bags for no clear reason at all.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: It wasn't the pedophiles fault those school kids wore their darling uniforms. He had to run over and tell them how pretty they were.
Exalted!
Would anyone here honestly walk up to either a booth babe or a con attendee wearing a skimpy outfit and ask her for her cup size? Honestly?
Nope.
1. I'm not a boor.
2. I don't like being slapped.
3. I don't like it when the missus runs over me in the van. In fact I sort of hate that.
AustonT wrote: You can jump from honey and bears to rape but you can't connect the dots here?
Strangely, it makes sense to me that people talking about this situation with images of penetration and violence might have something non-coincidental to do with ideas about rape. But I am having a really hard time figuring out how someone who is doing something appropriate to where they are is like the exact opposite of that.
LordofHats wrote: a woman dressed in a sexy outfit in a highly populated area with a lot of men, should expect that some of them are probably gonna be douche bags.
Does this mean she should be ok with the treatment, and just not open her mouth and talk about it or write about it? It would seem, by the reaction given here, that she should just accept it and not bother anyone with her story. I, obliviously, disagree with the sentiment that she is being silly for talking about the incident. I think she was right to talk about it; it is how we minimize such occurrences instead of excusing them.
Let's be clear: I never said anything about breaking laws or sexual acts, only social responsibility. A pedophile approaching a child and saying something inappropriate is a valid comparison of a nerd approaching a scantily clad woman and saying something inappropriate in terms of the latter. Other examples include:
-Someone walking up to a homeless man and calling him "Smelly McPieceO'Crap"
-Someone telling an old person to just die already
-Someone asking someone else's wife if she'd like to screw in front of her husband
-Someone telling a random stranger they're going to hell unless they jump through a set of hoops
All of these are valid in terms of "someone say something inappropriate to someone else" and will and do eventually happen. It doesn't mean it should though.
Ahtman wrote: Does this mean she should be ok with and just not open her mouth and talk about it or write about it? It would seem, by the reaction given here, that she should just accept it and not bother anyone. I, obliviously, disagree with that sentiment. I think she was right to talk about it. It is how we minimize such occurrences instead of excusing them.
My problem is mostly that I find this to be a complete non-story.
Morning News: Men treat sexily dressed woman poorly.
Me: They've been running this story for the past 50 years. I don't know what's wrong with the news today.
She's not some special butterfly in a special world where nothing bad ever happens. This is the real world. Dress like Felicia Hardy and someone will be an ahole. Accept it and move on. Telling the whole world about won't change anything because I'd bet millions this won't be the last time someone is a dick to her at a comic convention.
This isn't a moral argument. Also, your comparison is still poor. It seems to me you're saying that the woman went to the con in order to be sexually harassed.
LordofHats wrote: a woman dressed in a sexy outfit in a highly populated area with a lot of men, should expect that some of them are probably gonna be douche bags.
Does this mean she should be ok with and just not open her mouth and talk about it or write about it? It would seem, by the reaction given here, that she should just accept it and not bother anyone. I, obliviously, disagree with that sentiment. I think she was right to talk about it. It is how we minimize such occurrences instead of excusing them.
By all means expressing displeasure with dickbags is quite alright. Where I and I think a few other people are having trouble believing is that she was 1) actually surprised and 2) not just trying to garner media attention now. From looking at her blog, it appears that she's not even really a comic fan, but rather a struggling fashion designer. Which leads me back to the faux outrage to get media hits on her website.
I'm late to this party, so I'll just jump in with two quick observations:
1. Post #3 was the first instance of outright victim blaming. That has to be some sort of record, Dakka.
2. My S/O and I go to a lot of cons in costume. And from experience, I can say that the only even remotely lecherous or impolite people are exclusively members of the indie press, and even then it is maybe 1 in 3 from that group. I'm really disappointed at how that article has painted the entire con-going crowd out to be a horde of ravenous cannibals on the prowl for supple boob-flesh, as I've found 99% of people to be extremely polite and respectful about taking photos.
Yes, we agree that sometimes things happen and then other things happen and they may correlate. Now, how do we get from that to "she deserved it"?
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azazel the cat wrote: I'm really disappointed at how that article has painted the entire con-going crowd out to be a horde of ravenous cannibals on the prowl for supple boob-flesh
The woman herself has emphasized that this is NOT the case, as far as her experience goes. But it's just a media stunt, you know.
AustonT wrote: You can jump from honey and bears to rape but you can't connect the dots here?
Strangely, it makes sense to me that people talking about this situation with images of penetration and violence might have something non-coincidental to do with ideas about rape. But I am having a really hard time figuring out how someone who is doing something appropriate to where they are is like the exact opposite of that.
bwah ahha haha hahahaha
To be clear: I'm laughing because I think you told a joke.
Well, sure it sums up your position. But when we add it all up it comes out to: "women deserved and got bad treatment."
Except thats not my position. I've said dozens of times harassing women is not ok. But I still think she did this all on purpose. What attractive 23 year old girl living in NYC is unaware there are filthy people in the world? Honestly.
This isn't a moral argument. Also, your comparison is still poor. It seems to me you're saying that the woman went to the con in order to be sexually harassed.
She went to that con to be objectified, she got treated like an object. Cue end credits.
Where did I say she deserved it? I only dared to point out that "blame the victim" shouldn't be a phrase anyone can just throw out to absolve someone of any responsibility for their own actions that may have had an unpleasant outcome.
As I tried to allude in my first post, its one thing to blame a woman for dressing in a miniskirt and being raped, and another to blame her for dressing in a miniskirt and having guys just be general dicks. One is an extremely obvious foreseeable outcome, so someone can look at the guy and say "shame on you" and then turn to the woman and say "come on, what did you honestly expect?"
This isn't a moral argument. Also, your comparison is still poor. It seems to me you're saying that the woman went to the con in order to be sexually harassed.
She went to that con to be objectified, she got treated like an object. Cue end credits.
You walked into the street to try and get blown by gay men. It's your own fault.
People go to conventions for all sorts of reasons. I went to GenCon to make contacts and didn't play any games. If someone treated me rudely would it be ok because I wasn't there for the main purpose of the convention? There are people at NYCC promoting movies and TV shows that have nothing to do with comic books either, are they also attention seeking whores deserving of being treated poorly? There isn't a singular purpose to these events, there are many purposes: promotion is one of them, having fun another, and for some it is work.
There is nothing to back up that her shock and humiliation is 'faux-anything'. Knowing something might happen and having it actually happen are two very different things. We all know that humans can die at any moment, but if you came on the boards and said that your brother was in a car accident and was killed, and that you were shocked, it would be cruel and asinine to tell you that you are stupid for being surprised and that we all know that if happens.
If you are used to being treated nicely, and people are friendly and outgoing to you at every con you have been to and then suddenly some people try to humiliate you it will be a shock and a surprise.
LordofHats wrote: I only dared to point out that "blame the victim" shouldn't be a phrase anyone can just throw out to absolve someone of any responsibility for their own actions that may have had an unpleasant outcome.
And I already told you to stop running away via generalization and actually talk about the topic. So what's your take here: should we blame the victim in this case or not?
DutchKillsRambo wrote: I've said dozens of times harassing women is not ok. But I still think she did this all on purpose.
So you think she went to the NYCC that day with the specific intention of being sexually harassed?
No. But I do believe that she was well aware that it could happen. And then oh look post on my blog, get media on my side, watch hits on my blog skyrocket, make money. I think she's quite clever actually, not this naive young girl that saw the horrible things men could say for the first time. At age 23. In NYC.
kronk wrote: I liked the first couple of pages where there were pictures of hot chicks in costumes.
Yea, those were good times weren't they? The sun was shining, small animals were playing in the meadow, and spring was in the air. It was before the Dark Time....
There is nothing to back up that her shock and humiliation is 'faux-anything'. Knowing something might happen and having it actually happen are two very different things. We all know that humans can die at any moment, but if you came on the boards and said that your brother was in a car accident and was killed, and that you were shocked, it would be cruel and asinine to tell you that you are stupid for being surprised and that we all know that if happens.
If you are used to being treated nicely, and people are friendly and outgoing to you at every con you have been to and then suddenly some people try to humiliate you it will be a shock and a surprise.
So you really think a 23 year old attractive girl living in NYC has NEVER been hit on rudely before? I'd love to see the percentages on that cuz it just aint happening. Have any of you ever been to NYC? Just walking down the street with my then girlfriend would elicit hoots and hollers from hispanic day laborers on a weekly basis. And this was the nice section of Manhattan. And similar experiences with literally every single girl I know thats lived there or visited there. Again, its not ok. But its also not a surprise.
Anyone could be attacked at any moment, are you telling me that if a significant person in your life just showed up at your door bloodied and bruised saying they had been attacked that you would just shrug and say 'you should have been aware that it could have happened' and not be surprised at all?
Manchu wrote: should we blame the victim in this case or not?
You say running away, I say it's a trap!
The topic is: Woman dresses sexily and gets harassed by guys.
The frank answer is: "Lady what did you think was gonna happen?" and "Come on guy have some class." The statements may be issued in any order or for convenience placed on opposite ends of a sign so both may be read at once.
Anyone could be attacked at any moment, are you telling me that if a significant person in your life just showed up at your door bloodied and bruised saying they had been attacked that you would just shrug and say 'you should have been aware that it could have happened' and not be surprised at all?
She was bloodied and brusied? Violent attacks happen as often as rude words? See where Im going with this? Getting violently attacked is not at all similar to getting rudely hit on.
If your significant other showed up and said a group of guys yelled obscene things at here while walking home would you get all Liam Neeson and go beat them up for not showing a woman the utmost respect? No you'd probably try to be nice to her and say something to the effect "sorry dear some people are donkey-caves but you cant let it get to you"
We all know women only exist to please men. Certainly they would never do anything for any other reason. If it weren't for men, women would just wear head to toe burlap sacks.
I'd need an up-close and in-person view of the costume in question to be sure...
I concur... we need evidence to render our verdict....
Just being a good citizen here...
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Ahtman wrote: We all know women only exist to please men. Certainly they would never do anything for any other reason. If it weren't for men, women would just wear head to toe burlap sacks.
Anyone could be attacked at any moment, are you telling me that if a significant person in your life just showed up at your door bloodied and bruised saying they had been attacked that you would just shrug and say 'you should have been aware that it could have happened' and not be surprised at all?
She was bloodied and brusied? Violent attacks happen as often as rude words? See where Im going with this? Getting violently attacked is not at all similar to getting rudely hit on.
If your significant other showed up and said a group of guys yelled obscene things at here while walking home would you get all Liam Neeson and go beat them up for not showing a woman the utmost respect? No you'd probably try to be nice to her and say something to the effect "sorry dear some people are donkey-caves but you cant let it get to you"
What I have gathered from this thread is that you are not good at understanding analogies, and even worse at making them. Though you make a mean strawman, I give you that.
That argument isn't about violence or overreacting, but about your consistent argument that since people know it can happen it shouldn't be a surprise. We are giving examples of why it is entirely possible to know something is a possibility and still be surprised.
Shame that she had to meet some jerks who cannot control themselves. Well now we know what camp I am in, now for the rest.
Could she be using this for more coverage for herself? Yes. Could she be using the coverage she is getting to show that the behavior is inappropriate? Yes. Why is the first statement more likely for some folks and the second one so far fetched?
And I may have missed it as this thread got HUGE fast...but has someone linked to the blame the victim thread yet?
You know, I think all our troops in Afghanistan are just asking to be shot.
I mean, they went there knowing what it was like. And then they wear those outfits that really make them stand out and even put little US flags on their sleeves even though they know how it makes some people feel. If you wear the outfit of an american soldier around Taliban, you get shot. And yet they keep on wearing it and going out there, dressed like 'that'.
Or maybe this whole "they are asking for it because they dressed that way" argument is stupid no matter how you try to apply it.
For the record I was being sarcastic in my last reply. Women wear what they want for whatever reason they want. No one psychically knows this. Some days I wear light make up, girl jeans and a tight t-shirt. Other days I wear a looser shirt, a cool jacket and a beanie. It's based on what I feel, not to please others (though getting service at places and not getting arrested is a concern, otherwise I'd just be naked all the time). In either case I'm not begging for someone to call me a disparaging slur or worthless stoner hippy.
LordofHats wrote: The frank answer is: "Lady what did you think was gonna happen?" and "Come on guy have some class." The statements may be issued in any order or for convenience placed on opposite ends of a sign so both may be read at once.
No, the only answer is "come on guys have some class." You put that other one on there and "come on guys have some class" is meaningless. It becomes "she had it coming."
I can know I could be struck by lightning, but then I should know that if I drink five beers I'm gonna be a little tippy.
There is a difference between knowing things can happen and knowing they WILL happen.
No, the only answer is "come on guys have some class." You put that other one on there and "come on guys have some class" is meaningless. It becomes "she had it coming."
If you absolutely demand that any statement pointing out that a woman in sexy clothes is going to attract negative attention to be a condemnation of the woman then I guess you can spin it that way but its a rather narrow way to look at the world.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Getting violently attacked is not at all similar to getting rudely hit on.
Let's put all our difference aside for just a second and be reminded that different outcomes can have similar causes. A child playing with a knife might just knick her finger or she might slit her throat. If she only knicks her finger, we don't wait until she slits her throat to act.
If your significant other showed up and said a group of guys yelled obscene things at here while walking home would you get all Liam Neeson and go beat them up for not showing a woman the utmost respect? No you'd probably try to be nice to her and say something to the effect "sorry dear some people are donkey-caves but you cant let it get to you"
When you ask these questions, you're excluding me right and really saying would a reasonable person do these things right?
LordofHats wrote: I can know I could be struck by lightning, but then I should know that if I drink five beers I'm gonna be a little tippy.
There is a difference between knowing things can happen and knowing they WILL happen.
I think it is fair for her to not expect someone asking to interview her to turn around and treat her like gak. This would be an example of knowing it can happen, not that it will. IF someone asks to interview me I would assume they want to, you know, interview, not that they are putting on an elaborate ruse just to mock me for their own amusement. It would be more likely for me not expect that it would happen, even though I know it can, if I had done interviews several times before and I had not been lied to about the nature of the inquiry.
Anyone could be attacked at any moment, are you telling me that if a significant person in your life just showed up at your door bloodied and bruised saying they had been attacked that you would just shrug and say 'you should have been aware that it could have happened' and not be surprised at all?
She was bloodied and brusied? Violent attacks happen as often as rude words? See where Im going with this? Getting violently attacked is not at all similar to getting rudely hit on.
If your significant other showed up and said a group of guys yelled obscene things at here while walking home would you get all Liam Neeson and go beat them up for not showing a woman the utmost respect? No you'd probably try to be nice to her and say something to the effect "sorry dear some people are donkey-caves but you cant let it get to you"
What I have gathered from this thread is that you are not good at understanding analogies, and even worse at making them. Though you make a mean strawman, I give you that.
That argument isn't about violence or overreacting, but about your consistent argument that since people know it can happen it shouldn't be a surprise. We are giving examples of why it is entirely possible to know something is a possibility and still be surprised.
About ready to quit the thread as I don't really care that much and there's been good points on both sides I think, but your comparing a very rare event to a very common event. At least in my life Ive been subject to far far far more verbal abuse than physical. And its just hard for me to believe that she was actually caught unaware. And its clear that you and several others feel different.
And is any straight man here really gonna say they don't get turned on by attractive women in skimpy clothes? That a full Costco sweatsuit elicits the same response in your brain as a bikini?
The only problem is when you act on those impulses in an obscene way.
This isn't a moral argument. Also, your comparison is still poor. It seems to me you're saying that the woman went to the con in order to be sexually harassed.
She went to that con to be objectified, she got treated like an object. Cue end credits.
No. She went to that con dressed in an A+ Black Cat costume, ripped from the pages of a comic book. She obviously put effort into making sure her costume was true to the artist's design, and she -thankfully- had a body-type that suited the costume.
By contrast, these girls went to a con to be objectified. You'll notice an obvious difference. I present: Chewbacca & Pikachu.
Ahtman wrote: IF someone asks to interview me I would assume they want to, you know, interview, not that they are putting on an elaborate ruse just to mock me for their own amusement.
Yeah, it was pretty stupid for half the people who try out for American Idol to even think they made it to the finals on actual talent.
Welcome to High School. People will lie to you solely to humiliate you on a daily basis.
If you were to go out wearing dreadlocks, a hippy poncho, ripped courdoroy pants and a Dead shirt, would you be surprised when someone thought you were a stoner?
This isn't a moral argument. Also, your comparison is still poor. It seems to me you're saying that the woman went to the con in order to be sexually harassed.
She went to that con to be objectified, she got treated like an object. Cue end credits.
No. She went to that con dressed in an A+ Black Cat costume, ripped from the pages of a comic book. She obviously put effort into making sure her costume was true to the artist's design, and she -thankfully- had a body-type that suited the costume.
By contrast, these girls went to a con to be objectified. You'll notice an obvious difference. I present: Chewbacca & Pikachu.
On a serious note: There's a time that you need to take your lady seriously... then, there's a time when she wants to be objectified... its your job to figure out when and how.
Yeah, what about pornstars? Do they like to be objectified? I dunno. Is that what they think being a pornstar is all about? Seems to me that in the best situations, those ladies have have someone professionally negotiate exactly who does exactly what to her (et vice versa) and it only happens when she agrees and to the extent that she continues to agree. So, I'm not seeing the connection ... ?
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Or the Girls Gone Wild? Or girls that compete in wet t-shirt contests? Or amateur stripper nights? They all dont like getting objectified?
There's a common theme here...
Or the Glamour shots they post on Facebook and twitter? What are they doing there?
whembly wrote: There's a time that you need to take your lady seriously... then, there's a time when she wants to be objectified... its your job to figure out when and how.
Show that to your wife. (I can't wait for your response: "she loves it!!!")
I get the feeling that there are women in the world who are more willing to be objectified so long as they get paid for it. A lot. Liking it might be a different issue when you're pulling seven figures.
"If you're good at something, never do it for free."
Yeah, what about pornstars? Do they like to be objectified? I dunno. Is that what they think being a pornstar is all about? Seems to me that in the best situations, those ladies have have someone professionally negotiate exactly who does exactly what to her and it only happens when she agrees. So, I'm not seeing the connection ... ?
Its hard for me to believe they dont like being objectified as their whole point is to separate men from their money by becoming a sexual object. They become a sexual fantasy for men and some make a lot of money doing it. You act like no woman has ever benefited from being a sex object.
There's truly been some strange and pretty digusting comments in this thread, I mean, wow. Next time I wonder why there are certain aspects of nerd culture where there are a huge lack of women participating in i'll just read this thread again.
whembly wrote: There's a time that you need to take your lady seriously... then, there's a time when she wants to be objectified... its your job to figure out when and how.
Show that to your wife. (I can't wait for your response: "she loves it!!!")
Not married...
But, yea... she knew that. Every women I've been with either flat-out told me (and smacking me at the same time) or insinuated this...
Hell even a pretty girl getting losers to buy them drinks at a bar is objectifying themselves. Some women are empowered by objectification as they can use it as a tool. Others deal with awful bs their whole life because men see them as nothing but a tool for their gratification.
I will admit I think my position has changed a bit due to this discourse with Cannerus, Ahtman, and Manchu.
Overall I think its a lot more convoluted than any of us have been saying really.
daedalus wrote: Step 1: Dress up to attract attention around unattractive people who characteristically have problems with social interaction, ESPECIALLY with women.
Step 2: Act surprised and outraged. Alert the media, because step 1 was still not enough attention.
Lord-Loss wrote: There's truly been some strange and pretty digusting comments in this thread, I mean, wow. Next time I wonder why there are certain aspects of nerd culture where there are a huge lack of women participating in i'll just read this thread again.
LordofHats wrote: I work a job I hate because its the best paying job I can get. I see no reason why porn stars must necessarily have a different mentality.
I highly doubt one gets into the porn industry without at least a passing enjoyment of sex.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: You act like no woman has ever benefited from being a sex object.
Sure, because that's not the point of this discussion. You keep saying that this woman put herself in a position she did not enjoy because she did enjoy it (in some sense) but lied about it to reap a benefit. I am taking her at her word, that she did not enjoy it and did not ask for it. So for me, the lesson isn't that women can benefit from being treated badly. I'd say the lesson is, you're not supposed to treat people badly and made-up, post hoc hypothetical scenarios doesn't change that.
LordofHats wrote: I work a job I hate because its the best paying job I can get. I see no reason why porn stars must necessarily have a different mentality.
I highly doubt one gets into the porn industry without at least a passing enjoyment of sex.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Overall I think its a lot more convoluted than any of us have been saying really.
I 100% agree with this.
LordofHats wrote: I work a job I hate because its the best paying job I can get. I see no reason why porn stars must necessarily have a different mentality.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: You act like no woman has ever benefited from being a sex object.
Sure, because that's not the point of this discussion. You keep saying that this woman put herself in a position she did not enjoy because she did enjoy it (in some sense) but lied about it to reap a benefit. I am taking her at her word, that she did not enjoy it and did not ask for it. So for me, the lesson isn't that women can benefit from being treated badly. I'd say the lesson is, you're not supposed to treat people badly and made-up, post hoc hypothetical scenarios doesn't change that.
Look through her website Manchu. She has shirts with couples performing various sex positions. Shirts with the word whore on it. A jean skirt with feth it written on the back. There;s no way these comments were knew to her.
There was an interesting point on the last page of women wanting to be objectified at times. I completely agree on this point. Strippers, porn stars, etc. have all been listed and are perfect examples. If you a tell girl in the bar bikini contest she's hot it'll make her smile and make you smile.
Most of you know I have an interesting history, so I can say with some authority it's very important to develop the awareness of what a woman wants, when she wants it and what she *thinks* she wants. If one is attempting to woo a girl in a public place, say a coffee shop, witty conversation, a flirty glance and a fitting compliment should be more than enough to get a feel of where she stands on you. She's already decided that quickly. Let's say you're at a club dancing and a girl wearing skimpy clothes comes up and starts dancing with you and grinding, she may or may not want anything more from you. Come on too strong and you'll alienate her immediately. Come on too weak and she'll judge you as a pussy. If you're in the bedroom, sometimes it is appropriate to handle her, toss her around and say horribly objectifying things, but this takes either knowing a person very well, or being compatible enough to read them very well. The only way to build that awareness is to communicate and observe til it becomes a sixth sense. Hopefully this has been informative.
Apparently "I look good and I'm not afraid of attention" = I don't deserve to be treated like a person. People like that are only objects that want to be objectified. Anything else would be uncivilized.
She acted naive by saying she was shocked that men would be rude to her for wearing a racy costume at a comic con. In my mind shes lying. In yours shes not. Only she knows the truth.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: She acted naive by saying she was shocked that men would be rude to her for wearing a racy costume at a comic con. In my mind shes lying. In yours shes not. Only she knows the truth.
No, no: she said she was surprised that people would act this way to here in a situation where that normally doesn't occur in her experience. As a separate matter from surprise, she was also repulsed by the behavior.
Ahtman wrote: Apparently "I look good and I'm not afraid of attention"
So when you get that attention dont be surprised when its not all good maybe?
Your falling back to that failed idea that there aren't different types of attention. I should also have added "I'm not scared of human sexuality" to that bit as well, which much of this seems to revolve around. It isn't that she wanted attention, it is that the attention in this case was based around sexuality to some extent, and to a known comic character as well. We have multiple forums on this very website for people to seek attention on their work, but we don't condemn them for it and demean them as people for showing their minis, but we do to this woman.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: I highly doubt one gets into the porn industry without at least a passing enjoyment of sex.
I think most of the human race has at least a passing enjoyment of sex. But really, have sex with a hot member of the opposite (or same) sex in front of a camera and we'll pay you more than most people make in half a decade? I'd do it but I don't have the legs for it
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: If you a tell girl in the bar bikini contest she's hot it'll make her smile and make you smile.
Telling a girl she's hot in a situation where that comment is appropriate and welcome isn't really objectifying her.
It is though, but I clarify that I don't believe in good and bad, just stuff existing. Objectifying isn't inappropriate in and of itself, just most of the time with most people. I say it is objectifying her because to a small degree you are indicating that her physical appearance is more important than her other attributes at that moment. A Shakespearean sonnet is a classier way of doing this which shows, through time and effort, a concern towards arousing her emotion as well which indicates you care about more parts of her. Even the Bible gets a little objectifying at times ("Your breasts are like fawns"). What the real issue is, is that women only want to be objectified when they want to objectified and it's up to men to decode their psycho-ness (which men have their own breed of and both sexes trade off on even within the framework of sexual identity).
Ahtman wrote: Apparently "I look good and I'm not afraid of attention"
So when you get that attention dont be surprised when its not all good maybe?
Your falling back to that failed idea that there aren't different types of attention. I should also have added "I'm not scared of human sexuality" to that bit as well, which much of this seems to revolve around. It isn't that she wanted attention, it is that the attention in this case was based around sexuality to some extent, and to a known comic character as well. We have multiple forums on this very website for people to seek attention on their work, but we don't condemn them for it and demean them as people for showing their minis, but we do to this woman.
If you cant see that sexuality changes the subject matter, especially in prudish America, then your being daft. A woman in a skintight outfit is very different than a mini of the same thing. But then we could trace it all the way back to why all comic artists feel the need to sexualize their female characters.
Ahtman wrote: Apparently "I look good and I'm not afraid of attention"
So when you get that attention dont be surprised when its not all good maybe?
Your falling back to that failed idea that there aren't different types of attention. I should also have added "I'm not scared of human sexuality" to that bit as well, which much of this seems to revolve around. It isn't that she wanted attention, it is that the attention in this case was based around sexuality to some extent, and to a known comic character as well. We have multiple forums on this very website for people to seek attention on their work, but we don't condemn them for it and demean them as people for showing their minis, but we do to this woman.
If you cant see that sexuality changes the subject matter, especially in prudish America, then your being daft. A woman in a skintight outfit is very different than a mini of the same thing. But then we could trace it all the way back to why all comic artists feel the need to sexualize their female characters.
To sell more comics. Unless they're actually attempting to change people's minds about women in general in a negative way, the women in the comic books are fictional so it's a fairly victimless crime. Kinda like killing a character in a horror movie.
AustonT wrote: Right she can only Cosplay and pose as comic book characters right?
You've lost me now. All I know is that you have failed to show any evidence supporting your statement.
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: I say it is objectifying her because to a small degree you are indicating that her physical appearance is more important than her other attributes at that moment.
That's what you think telling a girl she is hot means? I use it to mean "I find you sexually attractive."
AustonT wrote: Right she can only Cosplay and pose as comic book characters right?
You've lost me now. All I know is that you have failed to show any evidence supporting your statement.
I see plenty of evidence.
This is kind of weaving in and out of my question for Cannerus, but is the issue here that you are equating sexual attractiveness with being objectified? My own account of sexuality is that people are the proper objects of sexuality so even in that technical sense, being the object is not different from being a person -- in other words, this isn't the de-personalizing objectification that we're talking about. (Contrast this with someone who wants to rub their privates against a shoe or a pillow.) A woman being sexy isn't being less of a human being.
my wife leaves the house in her corset, and her sweater puppets will be up her nose.
look at her? fine. she wore it, its out, no sense in getting angry. she can cover up if it upsets her.
touch her? absolutely not. then you deal with me. and i'm prepared to go to jail in defense of my wife.
shout inappropriate things at her? combo of one and two. show some respect and keep the dirty thoughts in your head where everyone elses are. I WILL say something back, but she can always put the girls away if she wants to.
its really all up to the woman. if they enjoy the attention, clearly they have emotional issues and they need help, OR, they're just fine and don't mind the objectification.
meanwhile, I walk Renn Faire in a kilt and boots. and thats it. like it or don't, its how I roll. same can be said for the ladies.
slap him and the problem is solved. Plus she might have gotten a round of applause. Come on wimminz, be fierce!
