I forget what their previous name was but the got hit by the GW ip gods before and changed to http://www.coolcastornot.com/
it seems they have been hit again as all of their forgeworld and GW stuff has dissappeared again.

*point and laugh*

Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

Wow, I never would expected that.

Uh... go China?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Opps they missed one!

http://www.coolcastornot.com/at02-28mm-scale-resin-kit-railings-p-203.html

Love how they forgot to take off the plastic tabs from their photo

Wait a couple of weeks and a new website will spring up, this one will close down. Repeat ad nauseum.

The problem for GW is that they always seem to have a grace period of 3-4 months (at least) when they are selling stuff.

 Pacific wrote:
Wait a couple of weeks and a new website will spring up, this one will close down. Repeat ad nauseum.

The problem for GW is that they always seem to have a grace period of 3-4 months (at least) when they are selling stuff.

Was going to mention as much...though it deserves repeating.

There are so many recasters in China that trying to stop them in this manner is like attempting to deal with a termite infestation with a tweezers. They might get one or two - but I could probably find another 50 sources within an hour or less if I was so motivated. More than that, even if they do convince a host (or host country) to go through and remove the recasts...they will not be removed from the market, just shuffled around a bit.

Just searching eBay for Forgeworld with the "Buy it Now" option checked brings up over a dozen (stopped counting) different sources which are in all likelihood recasters.

I agree with Sean here.
There are dozens of these around China and they will just pop up again.

He was pretty lousy as far as recasters go, very limited selection, even more limited inventory... my group and I just placed a 1100 dollar order with all sorts of goodies from another source or two... >.>

Why not just buy from Forgeworld?

Because my 1100 dollar chinese recast order would buy me less than half of what I got from FW?

A shame I ordered a ton of stuff there and the casts were great quality(shipping took a while though, but that is mostly China's fault).

And 1 reason for it is because I don't want to buy 10 sets of FW just for the head to a kit. They broke down many sets into bits.

And contemptors cost $21. So there's that.

This site was the reformed miniatureshobby site. Give them a few weeks and they'll have a new site with all the old product back up.

And if you look at ebay, there is all of squat that GW or FW can do as these companies exist in areas that could care less about IP laws. The items were likely removed at the behest of paypal reacting to pressure from GW. The company will get a new site, a new paypal and go right back to doing it.

This url lasted about a year, so doing this once a year isn't really that much hassle.

 scipio.au wrote:
Why not just buy from Forgeworld?

To be entirely honest, I have bought A LOT from Forgeworld... and our group even more. I could handle the cost if the quality matched. This site actually had MUCH better quality than what I have experienced with FW.

Once quality was an issue as well, couldn't justify buying something from FW when they had it. If it wasn't I still went to FW though

Sites like that need to be wake up calls to FW and GW. The ONLY reason those sites exist is because people very much want the models and they feel that FW in particular is charging far too much for what amounts to toy soldiers.

Perhaps those costs could be justified with plastic injection, but I know personally how much effort it takes to crank out resin models once the molds are made and the prices are quite off. I understand they need to pay for design, overhead, production etc, but those could all be covered with increased sales volume at a lower margin.

If you don't want people to counterfeit your product, price them out of the market. GW and FW could quite easily make resin kits so cheap that China and Russia would be losing money trying to rip them off. As it stands, a Contemptor dread costs $21 in China which is somehow enough to pay the bills there.

And you know how long it takes to make that thing once the mold is done? About 5 minutes of actual handling. The rest of the time is resin curing. You mix, you pour, you wait, you demold. 5 minutes tops.

Copied and pasted from this week's "Why is Forge World's shipping so slow" thread:

Nerm86 wrote:
I ended up giving them a call and apparently it was 'stuck' in the system. The guy had to manually move it or something, anyway all sorted now.

Now I just have to wait a month for it :(

In my opinion, THIS is why the Chinese recasters are so popular. The resin is better, the quality is better, and it shows up in half the time for free shipping.

I don't think FW can, or should try to, compete with counterfeiters on price for reasons that Aerethan already said. On the other hand, they could fix a lot of their stupid shenanigans and stop running a subsidiary of a multi-million dollar business like 2 guys in a garage. They charge a premium price but the quality of their product is often shoddy and the handling is atrocious. The flat 15% shipping is a slap in the face and they should have dropped that years ago.

I think FW should try to compete by offering luxury, premium quality control and handling to go with their luxury, premium prices. I love their designs, but FFS, get it together.

 Ouze wrote:
Copied and pasted from this week's "Why is Forge World's shipping so slow" thread:

Nerm86 wrote:
I ended up giving them a call and apparently it was 'stuck' in the system. The guy had to manually move it or something, anyway all sorted now.

Now I just have to wait a month for it :(

In my opinion, THIS is why the Chinese recasters are so popular. The resin is better, the quality is better, and it shows up in half the time for free shipping.

I don't think FW can, or should try to, compete with counterfeiters on price for reasons that Aerethan already said. On the other hand, they could fix a lot of their stupid shenanigans and stop running a subsidiary of a multi-million dollar business like 2 guys in a garage. They charge a premium price but the quality of their product is often shoddy and the handling is atrocious. The flat 15% shipping is a slap in the face and they should have dropped that years ago.

I think FW should try to compete by offering luxury, premium quality control and handling to go with their luxury, premium prices. I love their designs, but FFS, get it together.

Don't forget that international buyers still have to pay FW's local sales tax for online purchases, which defies like 100% of internet commerce practice and is not required by UK law. I'm inclined to think that it's illegal to charge sales tax on out of state purchases here in the US.

So we pay 15% for the worlds slowest shipping, and then we pay VAT on top of that. All this for fairly light and often quite small resin pieces that can be shipped in medium envelopes with a little bubble wrap.

You know how much shipping I pay for bits from the UK? About $4 regardless of size. Why should FW be making profit on shipping when their markup is already insanely high?


And I totally forgot that coolcast offered free shipping on orders over $25-30, which was insanely easy to break due to how much you could get for that money.


For those who don't know what the prices were like(not that it matters now as the site no longer has GW items) here are a few examples in USD:

5x GK marine torsoes $2.5
12x GK Marine shoulders $2
1x GK Term Legs $.65
1x GK Term Torso $.50
5x GK shield icon $.30
1x GK Term Head $.15
1x GK Term shoulder $.20
1x GK Flamer $.40
1x SM Dev. Lascannon $2.50
1x SM Dev. Multi-Melta $4.00
1x Vamp Lord w/ Terrorgheist $24
1x Gamesday 2006 Daemon Slayer $16
1x Gamesday 2007 Ork Boss $20
1x Archaon on foot $18
1x Harry the Hammer $28
1x Kaptin Badrukk $12
1x Changeling $11
1x Kaldor Draigo $15
1x Firebelly $20
1x Captain Sicarius $12
1x Any etched brass $6.50
1x Contemptor Dreadnought $21
1x GK Dreadnought $18

 Aerethan wrote:
If you don't want people to counterfeit your product, price them out of the market. GW and FW could quite easily make resin kits so cheap that China and Russia would be losing money trying to rip them off. As it stands, a Contemptor dread costs $21 in China which is somehow enough to pay the bills there.

Nonsense. You can only make a profit selling at those prices if you remove the entire cost of designing the model (good artists don't work for free) by just stealing someone else's work, and then cast them in a country with no minimum wage laws or other pesky things getting in the way of minimizing your labor costs.

 Aerethan wrote:
he resin is better, the quality is better, and it shows up in half the time for free shipping.

You mean the resin is worse, the casting quality is far worse than FW's, and it takes 2-3 times as long to get it. I ordered a Malcador from them out of curiosity and I would've had a better product if I'd just lit my $50 on fire.

So we pay 15% for the worlds slowest shipping, and then we pay VAT on top of that. All this for fairly light and often quite small resin pieces that can be shipped in medium envelopes with a little bubble wrap.

Actually what you're doing is paying for the free express shipping I get on my boxes of superheavy tanks (and you probably don't want to know what those cost to ship). So, thank you for ordering expensive things that don't cost much to ship so that FW can continue to give me a good deal.

Because of all those guys that buy quality stuff cheaply from third party recasters, GW and FW are loosing their deserved profit from their hard work. Which in its turn leads to desperate actions to stay in business and avoid eventual insolvency, such as notorious price increases. And because of that small fat boys cannot afford buying the much needed Tactical Space Marine box, which is essential for the Humanity's Domination in the 40th Millenium and stomping over their mates at local GW shop.

Cheap hobbiests are cheap.

These fellers will always exist for any product that is popular,
As will hobbiest that want or believe they deserve their toys at a fraction of the cost.

Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Then it will probably pop up somewhere else as those cheap hobbiests will still want cheap copies.

This would happen whether a SM costs 60p or £60, demand drives this as with all other scams.

You can't compete with free (in this case no design costs or marketing).

In a way, knock-offs are sorta positive sign for the state of the hobby. It means that there's a wide audience which buys stuff, otherwise these recasters couldn't make profit themselves. But obviously, it's a loss for GW (and in general, hobbyists).

 notprop wrote:
Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Simply put...No.

Bigger companies have tried and failed to address China's counterfeit and knock off markets. In the best case scenario, they are ignored. In the worst case scenario, China actually rules that the original creators are in violation of the counterfeiter's right of production and sale within China and they are fined or locked out of the Chinese market for a period of time. China has no interest in addressing the issue - it isn't something which is in their interest to address, and their lack of action has nothing to do with not knowing about it.

In the modern economy, companies factor in Chinese knock offs into their business plan as assumed losses (not much different than assumed losses from shoplifters for retail stores).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Simply put...No.

Bigger companies have tried and failed to address China's counterfeit and knock off markets. In the best case scenario, they are ignored. In the worst case scenario, China actually rules that the original creators are in violation of the counterfeiter's right of production and sale within China and they are fined or locked out of the Chinese market for a period of time. China has no interest in addressing the issue - it isn't something which is in their interest to address, and their lack of action has nothing to do with not knowing about it.

In the modern economy, companies factor in Chinese knock offs into their business plan as assumed losses (not much different than assumed losses from shoplifters for retail stores).

QFT

If some of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world have got nowhere, GW have no chance.

TBH, it's a 'problem' throughout asia; they have a completely different concept of things like copyright and ownership of ideas. My personal record for how many times a single item can break copyright is 3, seen in S. Korea: A t-shirt depicting a lego Super Mario jumping out of a transforming Octopus Prime.

Regarding the topic at hand, I think it will only remain a 'fringe' issue. 99.8% of consumers will continue to buy legitimate products, and be completely unaware of counterfeits even existing. In fact, without any data at all to support my hypothesis, I would say that GW have probably spent far, far more money on solicitors than they would ever have lost from either instances such as this or 3rd party bits makers working in their garages.

Indeed. The main reason I've ever bothered buying fakes is to prevent GW from making those few dollars off of me, since they insist on treating veterans so terribly.

Their core demographic I'd imagine has no clue about recasts in any broad sense.

EDIT: and for the record, I don't feel that GW "owes" me anything. I never said my reasons for buying recasts were valid, but I will own up to them.

I wasn't even aware these existed...

I must live under a rock.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Simply put...No.

Bigger companies have tried and failed to address China's counterfeit and knock off markets. In the best case scenario, they are ignored. In the worst case scenario, China actually rules that the original creators are in violation of the counterfeiter's right of production and sale within China and they are fined or locked out of the Chinese market for a period of time. China has no interest in addressing the issue - it isn't something which is in their interest to address, and their lack of action has nothing to do with not knowing about it.

In the modern economy, companies factor in Chinese knock offs into their business plan as assumed losses (not much different than assumed losses from shoplifters for retail stores).

Best example to back up your point (imo)... Apple... There are stores that sell Apple knock-offs that look like Apple stores...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Simply put...No.

Bigger companies have tried and failed to address China's counterfeit and knock off markets. In the best case scenario, they are ignored. In the worst case scenario, China actually rules that the original creators are in violation of the counterfeiter's right of production and sale within China and they are fined or locked out of the Chinese market for a period of time. China has no interest in addressing the issue - it isn't something which is in their interest to address, and their lack of action has nothing to do with not knowing about it.

In the modern economy, companies factor in Chinese knock offs into their business plan as assumed losses (not much different than assumed losses from shoplifters for retail stores).

Best example to back up your point (imo)... Apple... There are stores that sell Apple knock-offs that look like Apple stores...

To go even further, I seem to recall a documentary where there are entire shopping malls of counterfeit stores. China's like the IP blackspot of the world.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Best example to back up your point (imo)... Apple... There are stores that sell Apple knock-offs that look like Apple stores...

To be fair, in that case many of the Apple Knock offs aren't even really Apple knock offs...just Apple equipment which never makes it onto the boat. For the companies who have items produced in China, that is a similar (though different) problem that they face.

Although the exact numbers are hard to lock down, a friend has a company who sells vacuum equipment. About 10 years ago they relocated their factory from Mexico to China. Everything was identical...same machines in the factory using the same materials and the same tooling. The Mexican factory had a 2% reject rate off the QC checks (bad castings or other problems with the components). The Chinese factory has about an 8% failure rate, though based on his best guesses by watching the counterfeit market (and purchasing a few of them to compare the counterfeits with his product) the 6% change in reject rates largely has been items walking out the back door to be packaged up on the Chinese grey market and sold. The only difference between the two products are the serial numbers which are placed on the equipment stateside after they pass QC checks here. When he broached the subject with the Chinese factory managers, they assured him that he was mistaken and the reject rate dropped to 4%. The counterfeits also had the manufacturers number plate removed and replaced with a generic blank one (with no rating information, model number or other information).

Follow ups with the Chinese government were ignored and follow ups with the US government were effectively dropped by the US government (they said they contacted the Chinese authorities who assured them that that was not happening). Almost everyone I have talked to who has products manufactured in China have similar stories as well. It is just as much a part of business there as bribes are in other countries (and political contributions are in the civilized world).

It sucks they got shut down.

I had 61 items in my cart the day that site died. Sadface...

Their probably are similar and maybe even cheaper stores with more miniatures... right?

I wonder if their quality was better than that of Forge World itself.

 BrookM wrote:
I wonder if their quality was better than that of Forge World itself.

From the couple of people I was chatting with at a GW shop (heh, it was an all nighter Iron Painter thing; things were pretty loose) it sounded like they tend to be just as good. One guy was saying he bought some and the darn things came with cleaned up mold lines. Now that's just a second-hand anecdote so I wouldn't make a major purchased based on that, but if I ever stumble across a recaster with a decent rep I may experiment with my luck.

Having an original contemptor here, and having seen a few of 'theirs' some time ago, I couldn't advise you to buy original, TBH.
and that's on one of the newer sculpts, on which FW casts are generally quite acceptable - but even then the FW original had more defects to fix.

guy with the bootleg contemptor basically told me that's constistently the quality they deliver - seems only their packing material is abysmal, and sometimes that will make components break during shipping. aside from that, seems they deliver superior casts.

it's a bit like buying an original DVD and being forced to watch the stupid unskippable anti-piracy messages, only here you get shafted with inferior quality casts, all for 'doing the "right" thing' and buying original.

 Bat Manuel wrote:
It sucks they got shut down.

They'll be back next month with a new website.

Why couldn't they shut down Forge World while they're at it for their criminal prices?

 Surtur wrote:
Why couldn't they shut down Forge World while they're at it for their criminal prices?

If you just don't go to their site or buy their product, it's effectively the same thing.

 BrookM wrote:
I wonder if their quality was better than that of Forge World itself.

The quality of casts are all on par with GW injected plastics. I've not come across a single bubble or defect.

The ONLY qualm I had was with the shipping time, but that has more to do with Chinese shipping than it does with the company. The parts where sent out in a timely fashion. After it was all said and done it took about 2-3 weeks to arrive.

The few possible recasts I've gotten (normally rhino doors from ebay) have been better quality than the ones I purchased directly from Forgeworld.

I bought one of those big FW Ork Dreadnoughts from them and it was pretty detailed. I also bought a bunch of resin space marines because I just can't pay GW's $4 for a tac marine when all I want to do is make a special weapon guy for squad swaps. The quality on looks good.

Can someone post the new site here? I want. o_o

 Monasou wrote:
Can someone post the new site here? I want. o_o

That's not really something DakkaDakka endorses...

 Shandara wrote:
You can't compete with free (in this case no design costs or marketing).

Well, I'm not seeing any difference in marketing budget between the two entities...

 Monasou wrote:
Can someone post the new site here? I want. o_o

Sorry I don't have access to a time machine...

The website in question is in the OP, the new one which will inevitably spring up does not exist (yet).

I also don't generally share my sources for recasts, lest "the man" catch on to them too quickly.

The best prices are from China, but Russia generally has a larger selection, although I've not found a Russian seller outside of ebay.


And sharing such sources publicly is not allowed here, nor should it be.

From what of them I've seen, quality is about the same as forgeworld.

Wouldn't the easiest way to find out where they are setting up shop again be to contact them through their current website that has no GW products and ask them about it?

In email they have not announced a new site or any plans to make a new site.

They mention doing business by email, but not sure how well that would work without having a visual catalog to go throught.

This thread title is a bit misleading then, isn't it? Cool Cast is not shut down and is still operating, they just removed all their FW product from their website, ostensibly sell it via email, and still have a wide variety of other hobby kits.

 Pacific wrote:

The problem for GW is that they always seem to have a grace period of 3-4 months (at least) when they are selling stuff.

No, I think the biggest problem for GW is that the quality of this guy was WAY better than the quality of product being pushed out by Forge World itself (as a number of others in this thread have said).

The fact of the matter is that Forge World charge an ever more ridiculous price for something they tout as premium, luxury, high-quality product. It's not. Forge World's products frequently arrive with:
- parts bent so badly they don't want to go straight (ork flakk gun),
- slip moulds leaving mould lines that are near impossible to fix (almost every model I've ever bought from them, though the worst offenders may have been gretchin crew)
- shrunken parts for one side of a model that don't fit with the matching part on the other side (storm eagle right side, looks like someone sat on the mould before the piece inside had hardened)
- "sweaty" resin that doesn't appear to have been mixed properly (storm eagle, ork stompa)
- pieces that look like the mould was only partially filled and later filled in with more resin (grot tanks).
- bubbles, shrunken parts and bendy elements that are completely unfit for purpose (SM character conversion kit - especially the sword which was also slipcast, chainaxes - even with a replacement I got six usable weapons out of twenty)

I've lost track of the number of products I've had to ask for replacement parts on. The latest was Angron, who amusingly enough was missing his arms - and of course came with the usual plethora of slipped mould lines. I hate dealing with the problem. I had sworn off FW until foolishly giving them another chance with Angron, but now I find myself regretting giving in to temptation.

Compare this to Coolcast, whose recast parts are:
- mouldline free
- solid, not sweaty
- excellent castings that fit together like FW's product is supposed to
- and it's actually possible to wash the mould release off them in one attempt instead of about three.

Hell, even the recasts of plastic bits are better than GW's plastic mouldings, not a few of which I've had with unacceptable mould lines.

To be honest, the only reason I don't buy from the recasters is that their resin smells something terrible. It's probably going to give you cancer if you fill your house with the stuff. I'd happily keep throwing money at FW to avoid that worry if their products weren't frequently such a load of crap.

TL;DR Forge World needs to get their act together because the recasters' products are not just cheaper but they're MUCH better quality too.

 frozenwastes wrote:
This thread title is a bit misleading then, isn't it? Cool Cast is not shut down and is still operating, they just removed all their FW product from their website, ostensibly sell it via email, and still have a wide variety of other hobby kits.

Well the recasting of GW products has been shut down, and their email says the site will be down at the end of the month, presumably when the registration is up.

Yeah, well you can get a lot more labor for a lot less when you own a sweatshop in China.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, well you can get a lot more labor for a lot less when you own a sweatshop in China.

I really doubt that they were doing the volume to facilitate a sweat shop. They could produce their entire GW line in 2 days with only a few people running molds.

Now if they had the entire FW catalog available, that argument could be reasonable.

Yeah, give them a few weeks and they'll be back up. I bought a whole GK army from them for about 1/4 to 1/2 what it would have cost from GW.

I'll be getting an email from them sometime next month with the new site I imagine.

Hooray for seedy underworlds and black markets!!! brought to you by the convenience of the internet! No more sewers and moldy taverns!

LOL.

The Taco-34 in their Ma.K line is a really great model as well. It's a recast of a Junk Tank Rock model that is only sold within Japan.

Here's a great series of blog posts about building, converting and painting it:

http://fichtenfoo.net/blog/tag/junk-tank-rock/

I didnt even know that these sites were available, i thought gw would trample on all who defy them.

I know what they do is wrong but some of the fw stuff is just plain expensive.

If they drop the price people would buy more stuff, well i would anyway.

Are there anymore site like this?

The site is not shut down, nor are the FW products gone.

Boys and Girls, expect to see Revenant and Phantom Titan dropping in 3 weeks from now.

*Edit, actually the next wave are already out, just not on a private owned website .

 leroy233 wrote:
I didnt even know that these sites were available, i thought gw would trample on all who defy them.

I know what they do is wrong but some of the fw stuff is just plain expensive.

If they drop the price people would buy more stuff, well i would anyway.

Are there anymore site like this?

Thats what GW fans want you to believe, they tell you the quality is bad, which is actually superior.
They tell you the shipping is slow, but its 3 weeks and free shipping.
They tell you its cheap because sweat shop. Well if you call 3 people in a kitchen sized room a sweat shop.
They tell you why GW is expensive, yet I can tell you the recasters are making high % of profit still, even at a fraction of FW price.

However....... I don't like pirates and recasters, and that link still links to recasts, which is still not ok.
Reporting link.

 Kanluwen wrote:
*point and laugh*

Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

Don't know what to tell you.... there are at least 10 other re casters I can find.

But does any of those on Tabao etc. cater to non chinese customers?

They'll be back.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They'll be back.

They always are.

I wonder if they'll move into the recasting of finecast and if so, whether they will have a better quality control than GW?

 LunaHound wrote:
The site is not shut down, nor are the FW products gone.

Boys and Girls, expect to see Revenant and Phantom Titan dropping in 3 weeks from now.

*Edit, actually the next wave are already out, just not on a private owned website .

 leroy233 wrote:
I didnt even know that these sites were available, i thought gw would trample on all who defy them.

I know what they do is wrong but some of the fw stuff is just plain expensive.

If they drop the price people would buy more stuff, well i would anyway.

Are there anymore site like this?

Thats what GW fans want you to believe, they tell you the quality is bad, which is actually superior.
They tell you the shipping is slow, but its 3 weeks and free shipping.
They tell you its cheap because sweat shop. Well if you call 3 people in a kitchen sized room a sweat shop.
They tell you why GW is expensive, yet I can tell you the recasters are making high % of profit still, even at a fraction of FW price.

However....... I don't like pirates and recasters, and that link still links to recasts, which is still not ok.
Reporting link.

 Kanluwen wrote:
*point and laugh*

Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

Don't know what to tell you.... there are at least 10 other re casters I can find.

MMMM..... Luna makes me want to go on a shadowrun down in Jumphouse Barrens.

Just make sure you got the clink, Mr Johnson.

People asking for links: No. Get over it, I'm not posting it or pm'ing you. It's against forum rules, and unfortunately for y'all, I enjoy having my own more or less private shopping network. The reason miniatureshobby/coolcast went down the drain is because certain people (bell of lost souls especially) made the dumb mistake of posting links all over the place. Once everyone knows about it, GW knows about it, and legal action is initiated. Besides that, ordering from my 'contacts' requires going through middlemen, etc. So no joy if you want the amazon.com experience.

chaos0xomega wrote:
People asking for links: No. Get over it, I'm not posting it or pm'ing you. It's against forum rules, and unfortunately for y'all, I enjoy having my own more or less private shopping network. The reason miniatureshobby/coolcast went down the drain is because certain people (bell of lost souls especially) made the dumb mistake of posting links all over the place. Once everyone knows about it, GW knows about it, and legal action is initiated. Besides that, ordering from my 'contacts' requires going through middlemen, etc. So no joy if you want the amazon.com experience.

You got a Doc Wagon Contract for that, too?

Errr... what?

Sorry, got caught up in the Shadowrun moment, looking at the seedy underbelly of rebel casters, and dark deals with Dragons, Demons, and whatnot.

back on track though-

The basic info on this subject is to go look for what your looking for, but don't run your hole when you find it to paraphrase you.

and yes, Virginia, they are out there.

Remember the first rule of fight club?


Yeah, thats the one.

So if you place a large order and they shut down to reopen elsewhere, do they still send you your order? Or refund your money? Typically businesses that close shop aren't terribly good about fulfilling outstanding orders. Especially ones on the other side of the globe.
This is what keeps me from seriously considering an order.

How does everyone feel about the Rackham recasts? I'm tempted to order some. I know many of the molds are currently _in_ China, and last I heard from Paulo Parente, one of the guys who Rackham owed a ton of money to when they went bust is about to destroy them.

 judgedoug wrote:
How does everyone feel about the Rackham recasts? I'm tempted to order some. I know many of the molds are currently _in_ China, and last I heard from Paulo Parente, one of the guys who Rackham owed a ton of money to when they went bust is about to destroy them.

Given the price that CMON are asking for the same minis?

My morality to the subject is entirely governed by my perception of the greed of the manufacturer...

If you really want cheap models go buy it from chinese websites and look for warhammer however, they will not send overseas so thats 1 problem.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
How does everyone feel about the Rackham recasts? I'm tempted to order some. I know many of the molds are currently _in_ China, and last I heard from Paulo Parente, one of the guys who Rackham owed a ton of money to when they went bust is about to destroy them.

Given the price that CMON are asking for the same minis?

My morality to the subject is entirely governed by my perception of the greed of the manufacturer...

I'm talking about the ones that CMON will never be able to re-release because the molds are gone.

 grotblaster wrote:
So if you place a large order and they shut down to reopen elsewhere, do they still send you your order? Or refund your money? Typically businesses that close shop aren't terribly good about fulfilling outstanding orders. Especially ones on the other side of the globe.
This is what keeps me from seriously considering an order.

They never actually go out of business - it just becomes difficult for them to do business under a specific name in the Western world. Paypal refuses to process payments to them until the offending items are removed from the website (though they will still process a payment for an unspecified invoice). eBay removes listings which are the easiest form of advertising for them. Domain registries remove the site from their servers...

The actual casters just keep on casting, more or less oblivious to the efforts to stop them. When a site goes down, they create a new one (Happy Hobby Network or something equally silly). When eBay bans their account - they create a new one. When Paypal stops processing their payments - they create a new Paypal account. While they are indifferent to IP laws, they tend to actually provide pretty good customer support for the products which they sell directly.

I'll miss coolcastornot (until they come back) - I got a few items from them, some back when they were miniatureshobby and they've been consistently great

Shame I don't know about the more obscure sites, but as long as miniatureshobby comes back it'll be alright. Unlike most people I don't actually use them for Forgeworld stuff (although I might if FW take much longer to send out my last order, it's been two weeks already) - I use them for plastic parts recast in resin, because I prefer working in resin. That, and they have a nice range of resin skulls for which I have no idea who the original manufacturer was.

Charax wrote:
I'll miss coolcastornot (until they come back) - I got a few items from them, some back when they were miniatureshobby and they've been consistently great

Shame I don't know about the more obscure sites, but as long as miniatureshobby comes back it'll be alright. Unlike most people I don't actually use them for Forgeworld stuff (although I might if FW take much longer to send out my last order, it's been two weeks already) - I use them for plastic parts recast in resin, because I prefer working in resin. That, and they have a nice range of resin skulls for which I have no idea who the original manufacturer was.

Learn Chinese - there are a lot of them out there. Heck - online translators have gotten good enough you can stumble around without too much of a problem using Google or Bing translators.

 Marthike wrote:
If you really want cheap models go buy it from chinese websites and look for warhammer however, they will not send overseas so thats 1 problem.

except all those chinese sites that send overseas, by which I mean pretty much all of them.

I feel threads like this are actually catering to recasters... so much info and hints and everything >.>
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

 LunaHound wrote:
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

Fighting recasters is GW's job, I don't recall being deputised to help GW protect its business model at any point.

I haven't ordered from these site and would be a bit dubious about it, Im not a fan of ordering from China after a bad seller on the net done me over.

However if the quality is as good as people are saying what are GW playing at with all their money they should be streets ahead in quality?

Charax wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

Fighting recasters is GW's job, I don't recall being deputised to help GW protect its business model at any point.

Just saying, a few wants to "celebrate" some FW items being taken down, while openly link the recaster site.
Which no doubt is bringing in more new customers.....
A bit detrimental I guess to their aim?

Charax wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

Fighting recasters is GW's job, I don't recall being deputised to help GW protect its business model at any point.

The problem is, and GW is shooting themselves in the foot with this, that if you wish for GW to be the game company you want to know and love, you'll protect their game. It's like showing loyalty to your flgs by buying there instead of buying online at places like Wayland or Maelstrom, etc... You love GW, you want to support GW, then you should strive to shut down recasters because they're undercutting GW.

Yes, this is a bit of ridiculous example because GW is very hard to like/love, but at the same time it is something that needs to be done by those that wish to see 40k keep expanding.

The recasters are just making it tough by offering good prices and good, if not better, product.

I'll posit a little point here.

Say Ford made the Pinto. It was expensive, and had all manner of production flaws that required you to fix it up right after you bought it brand new.

Now say that Xao Bing Corp sells that exact Pinto, for less money and you don't have to fix it at all.

Which would you buy?

GW should be forced to fix their quality and pricing, otherwise I,ll keep buying what I can from the company that is doing it right, regardless of who designed the models.

Oddly enough You don't really see recasts of smaller companies like CHS or Maxmini, at least not on the scale that GW has. CHS is a garage company and their products are shipped just fine, and if not they are replaced with proper versions.

How many times did Akaranseth have to swap out Finecast models until he got a proper cast?

And that's an asinine stance to take, especially as it ignores a major factor.

Xao Bing Corp is running their manufacturing in such a way that they are using the exact same machines and the exact same employees that they are paid by Ford for the production of the Pinto.

So why is there such a difference?

They'll be back.

In fact, in the last few weeks, at least two Russian-based recasters have set up shop online. I've already taken advantage of the savings.

 Aerethan wrote:
I'll posit a little point here.

Say Ford made the Pinto. It was expensive, and had all manner of production flaws that required you to fix it up right after you bought it brand new.

Now say that Xao Bing Corp sells that exact Pinto, for less money and you don't have to fix it at all.

Which would you buy?

GW should be forced to fix their quality and pricing, otherwise I,ll keep buying what I can from the company that is doing it right, regardless of who designed the models.

Oddly enough You don't really see recasts of smaller companies like CHS or Maxmini, at least not on the scale that GW has. CHS is a garage company and their products are shipped just fine, and if not they are replaced with proper versions.

How many times did Akaranseth have to swap out Finecast models until he got a proper cast?

I agree with the sentiments of your statement, but you're missing out on the massive levels of regulation that come with the production of cars.

I would like to note that you did have to fix the Pinto right after you bought it, but at the same time there are different regulations between models and cars. A finecast model won't ignite and explode if you drop its ass on the table. Though if you were GW, it would be a nice marketing strategy, and a way to make people buy more models as they would have to replace their new and improve "fineshrapnel".

Also I'm not saying recasters are a good thing or a bad thing, I don't buy from them because I don't buy enough GW to warrant me looking at their recasting competitiors, but the guy I was responding to was asking why it is our job as gamers to police the market when it's GW's job...

Also in the continuance of your example... if Ford's Pinto had issues and overpriced the value of the car that exploded upon being rear-ended, and Xao Bing Corp sold that exact same car cheaper and without the threat of death, I would go to Chevy instead of buying the Ford, no one is forcing me to only buy the Ford, just like no one is forcing me to buy GW models (or sculpts) for GW games.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Charax wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

Fighting recasters is GW's job, I don't recall being deputised to help GW protect its business model at any point.

The problem is, and GW is shooting themselves in the foot with this, that if you wish for GW to be the game company you want to know and love, you'll protect their game. It's like showing loyalty to your flgs by buying there instead of buying online at places like Wayland or Maelstrom, etc... You love GW, you want to support GW, then you should strive to shut down recasters because they're undercutting GW.

Yes, this is a bit of ridiculous example because GW is very hard to like/love, but at the same time it is something that needs to be done by those that wish to see 40k keep expanding.

The recasters are just making it tough by offering good prices and good, if not better, product.

Maybe they'll start offering good, if not better, rules and fluff as well.

 leroy233 wrote:
I haven't ordered from these site and would be a bit dubious about it, Im not a fan of ordering from China after a bad seller on the net done me over.

However if the quality is as good as people are saying what are GW playing at with all their money they should be streets ahead in quality?

I feel dubious about every new retailer I try, the first order is always a gamble - I chucked in a $30 order with the expectation that either I'd lose $30, or I'd gain models & a new source of models. It paid off massively. It did take a month to get here though, so those are just factors you have to weigh up.

 LunaHound wrote:


Just saying, a few wants to "celebrate" some FW items being taken down, while openly link the recaster site.
Which no doubt is bringing in more new customers.....
A bit detrimental I guess to their aim?

It does seem quite inconsistent, except that the links are going to a place that explicitly doesn't sell GW recasts anymore, so I dont see how it's helping - they don't use redirects on the site so whenever the replacement goes up knowing the URL for the old shop won't help

 Alfndrate wrote:

The problem is, and GW is shooting themselves in the foot with this, that if you wish for GW to be the game company you want to know and love, you'll protect their game. It's like showing loyalty to your flgs by buying there instead of buying online at places like Wayland or Maelstrom, etc... You love GW, you want to support GW, then you should strive to shut down recasters because they're undercutting GW.

By the same token shouldn't I always buy direct from GW so they get the whole price of whatever I buy rather than a FLGS or online retailer taking a cut?

Brand loyalty is a funny thing, because it usually comes into play because a certain brand is better in some way than another - like the android Vs iphone thing, people are loyal to a brand because of that brand's attributes, but here they're the exact same products, the only difference is the source. I don't think many companies would survive (indeed, many haven't) because someone else could manufacture the exact same thing cheaper. If someone started selling NotCoke which had the same exact properties as regular coke, but was cheaper, people will choose it.

Here, the differences are quite minor (the casting medium, the fact it's being sold from China, the fact it's not GW selling it, the relative obscurity of the recasters) that the only reasons to show loyalty are if one of those very specific differences resonates with you in some way?

Personally? I've given GW (Forgeworld, really) about £40 this year, the rest I buy second-hand, the people I game with have full armies, the local GW shut down almost a decade ago - I don't really see how my gaming would change one iota if GW crumbled tomorrow, so without the "Do it to keep GW alive because you wub them" argument what is there as an incentive?

 angel of ecstasy wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Charax wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

Fighting recasters is GW's job, I don't recall being deputised to help GW protect its business model at any point.

The problem is, and GW is shooting themselves in the foot with this, that if you wish for GW to be the game company you want to know and love, you'll protect their game. It's like showing loyalty to your flgs by buying there instead of buying online at places like Wayland or Maelstrom, etc... You love GW, you want to support GW, then you should strive to shut down recasters because they're undercutting GW.

Yes, this is a bit of ridiculous example because GW is very hard to like/love, but at the same time it is something that needs to be done by those that wish to see 40k keep expanding.

The recasters are just making it tough by offering good prices and good, if not better, product.

Maybe they'll start offering good, if not better, rules and fluff as well.

How is this hard to understand?

No corporation not based in a third world country is able to compete with recasters.

Recasters have no real overhead to speak of, nor do they worry about things like paying their employees a livable wage.
The phenomenon from China is that these recasters are actually using the same molds that the corporation which is paying the factory to produce their product gave them.

 LunaHound wrote:
The site is not shut down, nor are the FW products gone.

Boys and Girls, expect to see Revenant and Phantom Titan dropping in 3 weeks from now.

*Edit, actually the next wave are already out, just not on a private owned website .

 leroy233 wrote:
I didnt even know that these sites were available, i thought gw would trample on all who defy them.

I know what they do is wrong but some of the fw stuff is just plain expensive.

If they drop the price people would buy more stuff, well i would anyway.

Are there anymore site like this?

Thats what GW fans want you to believe, they tell you the quality is bad, which is actually superior.
They tell you the shipping is slow, but its 3 weeks and free shipping.
They tell you its cheap because sweat shop. Well if you call 3 people in a kitchen sized room a sweat shop.
They tell you why GW is expensive, yet I can tell you the recasters are making high % of profit still, even at a fraction of FW price.

However....... I don't like pirates and recasters, and that link still links to recasts, which is still not ok.
Reporting link.

 Kanluwen wrote:
*point and laugh*

Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

Don't know what to tell you.... there are at least 10 other re casters I can find.

That is expensive for a recast. £16.8

Charax wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

The problem is, and GW is shooting themselves in the foot with this, that if you wish for GW to be the game company you want to know and love, you'll protect their game. It's like showing loyalty to your flgs by buying there instead of buying online at places like Wayland or Maelstrom, etc... You love GW, you want to support GW, then you should strive to shut down recasters because they're undercutting GW.

By the same token shouldn't I always buy direct from GW so they get the whole price of whatever I buy rather than a FLGS or online retailer taking a cut?

No

Brand loyalty is a funny thing, because it usually comes into play because a certain brand is better in some way than another - like the android Vs iphone thing, people are loyal to a brand because of that brand's attributes, but here they're the exact same products, the only difference is the source. I don't think many companies would survive (indeed, many haven't) because someone else could manufacture the exact same thing cheaper. If someone started selling NotCoke which had the same exact properties as regular coke, but was cheaper, people will choose it.

Not to step on your parade, but there already is NotCoke, and it exists all around the word. My own personal experience with "NotCoke" was with a drink called Mecca-Cola. The can I had tasted exactly like coke, and according to my professor who bought it for the class after watching the Coke Wars documentary in our Intercultural Communications class, it was cheaper than a 12 pack of Coke. The reason why the majority of people still buy Coke is because it's got mass market, global appeal. Mecca-Cola is literally marketed to the muslim community world-wide. And there are already examples of people in other countries buying "NotCoke" that's cheaper... is LA Ice Cola still a thing in Australia?

 angel of ecstasy wrote:

Maybe they'll start offering good, if not better, rules and fluff as well.

LOL! Well played sir.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 angel of ecstasy wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Charax wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Its really not helping us fight recasters....

Fighting recasters is GW's job, I don't recall being deputised to help GW protect its business model at any point.

The problem is, and GW is shooting themselves in the foot with this, that if you wish for GW to be the game company you want to know and love, you'll protect their game. It's like showing loyalty to your flgs by buying there instead of buying online at places like Wayland or Maelstrom, etc... You love GW, you want to support GW, then you should strive to shut down recasters because they're undercutting GW.

Yes, this is a bit of ridiculous example because GW is very hard to like/love, but at the same time it is something that needs to be done by those that wish to see 40k keep expanding.

The recasters are just making it tough by offering good prices and good, if not better, product.

Maybe they'll start offering good, if not better, rules and fluff as well.

How is this hard to understand?

No corporation not based in a third world country is able to compete with recasters.

Recasters have no real overhead to speak of, nor do they worry about things like paying their employees a livable wage.
The phenomenon from China is that these recasters are actually using the same molds that the corporation which is paying the factory to produce their product gave them.

Forgeworld is being cast in China? Or are they casting resin copies from the plastic injection molds?

None of the parts that were sold on coolcast are manufactured in China by those same methods from GW.

Does china do any manufacturing for GW models? If so, I'd say it's only a matter of time before we start seeing plastics on the black market, and I'll crap myself from all the savings.

Perhaps companies will think twice about having China do all their production if it means that exact copies will outsell the originals.

News Flash!

From 2013 all GW miniatures will have an rfid tag embedded somewhere in the model.

All models will be scanned at our HHHobby Centres before any gaming commences. Any models failing the scan will be confiscated as fakes and destroyed.

Obviously older, official, miniatures will not have the tag, and so will need to be replaced with newer finescan originals. We appreciate the impact this may have on our loyal and valued customers, so for the initial week from launch we will only increase prices by 317% to cover the cost of the new finescan technology.

After the initial promotion prices will stabilise at a very reasonable 500% of today's prices, which I'm sure our loyal fans will appreciate is still very reasonable pricing for the peace of mind that their models are the genuine articles.

Holy crap FineScan. I love it.

Forge World was being cast in China at one point, yes. A large quantity of the range was.

China was approached for manufacturing GW models. By all accounts, GW pulled out.

Yes, a batch of my Elysians are from China and sold by FW, the kicker is, best batch of casting to date. Space Hulk was also done in China.

Charax wrote:
By the same token shouldn't I always buy direct from GW so they get the whole price of whatever I buy rather than a FLGS or online retailer taking a cut?

No. GW's sales through FLGS or online retailers are legal. GW has willingly accepted a lower cut of the sales in exchange for allowing the third-party seller to pay the costs of shelf space, marketing, etc. While there's something to be said for "buy where you play", there's certainly nothing unethical about buying through any legal seller of GW's products.

This is NOT the same as buying from a recaster that steals GW's work and sells illegal copies of it.

Here, the differences are quite minor (the casting medium, the fact it's being sold from China, the fact it's not GW selling it, the relative obscurity of the recasters) that the only reasons to show loyalty are if one of those very specific differences resonates with you in some way?

And the tiny little difference that the recasters are stealing someone else's work. It's no different than walking into a GW store and stealing a box of space marines off the shelf. Now, this might be ok with you (the popularity of illegal pdfs of GW books demonstrates that it's a common attitude), but don't pretend that we're talking about just another retailer to buy from.

Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

Here is a visual aid:

Just because I don't deal with piracy or sales, can you please explain why recasters that sell copies of GW products are not "stealing" simply because they're selling a copy of a GW product rather than walking into a GW and stealing the model?

The MPAA and RIAA have been able to make a decent case that piracy is theft...

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

3) IP theft is still theft. This isn't someone putting up scans of a book just because they can, it's a case of stealing someone else's work and selling it for your own gain.

Aerethan has a very clear dog in this fight, as it's well-known that he recasts models for his own use.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

I thought GW moved all the model production out of China a while ago...

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

I know for a fact that coolcast has made sales that GW never would have gotten.
Saying that everyone who buys a recast would've bought from GW if the recast wasn't available is naive.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

I thought GW moved all the model production out of China a while ago...

And you think that the company returned the molds and all stock produced?

Companies like Hasbro basically figure on "lost" stock when it comes to producing in China, as mysteriously the machines keep running even when the workers aren't there. It's like they have little elves that churn out action figures that get sold as if they're the real thing...

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

I know for a fact that coolcast has made sales that GW never would have gotten.
Saying that everyone who buys a recast would've bought from GW if the recast wasn't available is naive.

Actually he is correct.

Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

While this might be true in the case of digital piracy where there's no profit involved, it isn't true here.

1) In at least some cases it IS a lost physical object, since the "recaster" is using the original molds provided by the company to make legitimate models, and just selling (hypothetically) 10% of the production on the side for their own profit.

2) This isn't a case of a lost "sale" where the person probably wouldn't have bought the item in question, it's a very clear loss of the money spent on the illegal copy.

3) IP theft is still theft. This isn't someone putting up scans of a book just because they can, it's a case of stealing someone else's work and selling it for your own gain.

1. FW no longer produces in China, nor does GW. So there isn't some use of official molds for the black market. And honestly, it isn't hard to make molds, so the masters aren't even needed.

2. Loss of sales to competitors is still loss of sales, regardless of the legality of that competition. It is money that GW isn't making because someone else is. It isn't too different from people using PP models for Warhammer, which is also a lost sale.

3. IP is a very new concept. As the CHS case shows, GW's designs may not fall under sculptural art work, and instead as production design, which would make them not protected under UK law. I'm not saying that recasting is legal, or cool, or what have you.

4. I don't really have a dog in this as Kanluwen points out. My only qualm with this is that I was a customer. I don't sell my casts(not that that makes it any less illegal to make them). And honestly if GW wants to sue me they are welcome to. They can have my 93 Cavalier and already bad credit. I don't own any major assets, nor would they ever see a dime from me.


And as has been said, just because I bought a recast doesn't mean I didn't buy from GW. In many cases I bought the recasts because of the price. Do I need an OOP Archaon? No. If GW produced the model still and sold him at market value($50 on ebay) would I buy it from them? Hell no. But at $18 I can afford it, and it'll sit on my shelf until the day I get bored enough to paint it. GW didn't lose a sale there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And you think that the company returned the molds and all stock produced?

Companies like Hasbro basically figure on "lost" stock when it comes to producing in China, as mysteriously the machines keep running even when the workers aren't there. It's like they have little elves that churn out action figures that get sold as if they're the real thing...

I'm not saying that. He said that it was models skimmed off the top of the production line. If they aren't producing in China, they weren't skimmed off the top of the production line. In other words, his statement was incorrect.

Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Because the purchased models would not have been purchased at GW prices. Guaranteed.

Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

By those standards ebay is lost sales. So fine, if we want to nit pick.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And you think that the company returned the molds and all stock produced?

Companies like Hasbro basically figure on "lost" stock when it comes to producing in China, as mysteriously the machines keep running even when the workers aren't there. It's like they have little elves that churn out action figures that get sold as if they're the real thing...

I'm not saying that. He said that it was models skimmed off the top of the production line. If they aren't producing in China, they weren't skimmed off the top of the production line. In other words, his statement was incorrect.

Except it's not.

There were, as of March, still things being produced in China. Just because production ceased since then does not mean that the machines and molds are not still present, especially since the things being produced in China were plastic kits for the most part.

Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

Because the purchased models would not have been purchased at GW prices. Guaranteed.

Irrelevant. You bought a model produced by them, opting for the illegally produced option rather than the legally produced option.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

No, they didn't lose a sale. No sale of those models from GW ever would have happened.
I might have bought them from eBay, but likely not.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again:
Yes, they did lose a sale.

The product exists as produced by them. The fact that you weren't going to buy from them is irrelevant.

The fact is that you bought the exact same product, justifying it with "a smaller price".

By those standards ebay is lost sales. So fine, if we want to nit pick.

It is, but if we're going to nitpick...

The company has still been paid for that model.

 Aerethan wrote:
2. Loss of sales to competitors is still loss of sales, regardless of the legality of that competition. It is money that GW isn't making because someone else is. It isn't too different from people using PP models for Warhammer, which is also a lost sale.

Except buying from PP is ALSO legal. Stop comparing legal purchases to illegal ones.

3. IP is a very new concept. As the CHS case shows, GW's designs may not fall under sculptural art work, and instead as production design, which would make them not protected under UK law. I'm not saying that recasting is legal, or cool, or what have you.

Err, no. The CHS case arguably shows that you can make your own designs based on GW's IP, not that you can make a literal copy of GW's work. There's a huge difference between the two.

Do I need an OOP Archaon? No. If GW produced the model still and sold him at market value($50 on ebay) would I buy it from them? Hell no. But at $18 I can afford it, and it'll sit on my shelf until the day I get bored enough to paint it. GW didn't lose a sale there.

Let's not pretend this is about maintaining access to OOP models (a cause I can sympathize with, if the model is genuinely OOP and never coming back). The majority of recast sales are of things GW currently produces.

Boo wah about black markets and counterfeits. Every industry has them, and every company has fan boys who sound the alarm when they find them.

The difference here is that there isn't feth all that GW can realistically do about it beyond having paypal and site registrars slow them down.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There were, as of March, still things being produced in China. Just because production ceased since then does not mean that the machines and molds are not still present, especially since the things being produced in China were plastic kits for the most part.

Right. I'm not disputing that.
Nothing is produced there currently. Therefore nothing sold from there is "skimmed" from GW's current production. Which is what Peregrine said.

Let's not pretend this is about maintaining access to OOP models (a cause I can sympathize with, if the model is genuinely OOP and never coming back). The majority of recast sales are of things GW currently produces.

Did you see the metal models that coolcast offered? every one of them was OOP.

So now you have moral relativism. It's ok to recast something that GW stopped selling, but not current products?

It's not my fault GW released LE models that look insanely better than the production ones.

And with the destruction of the Bitz service, they opened themselves up to a crap ton of lost sales. GW could very well stem the tide of piracy on their products, but instead they probably ignore it like they do every other model company.

 Aerethan wrote:
Did you see the metal models that coolcast offered? every one of them was OOP.

No, since I hadn't seen that particular site before it was posted here, and the context was FW recasts, not OOP recasts.

So now you have moral relativism. It's ok to recast something that GW stopped selling, but not current products?

It's not entirely ok, but it's less obviously wrong if you're talking about a product that will never be sold by the original producer, assuming you'd be willing to buy a legitimate one if it was sold again. And no, it isn't moral relativism because the situations are completely different.

And with the destruction of the Bitz service, they opened themselves up to a crap ton of lost sales. GW could very well stem the tide of piracy on their products, but instead they probably ignore it like they do every other model company.

How exactly can GW stop piracy? If people are willing to buy illegal copies of GW products there's no way GW can stop it, since it's very hard to sell at that kind of discount when you have to deal with minimum wage, workplace safety laws, artists who expect to be paid for their work, etc. Don't try to blame GW for your willingness to support IP theft.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aerethan wrote:
Boo wah about black markets and counterfeits. Every industry has them, and every company has fan boys who sound the alarm when they find them.

So because theft is common we should just ignore it?

GW could quit discontinuing items that apparently still have a demand.

And metal models are still viable for the older pieces. Have you seen what an Empire Grandmaster costs now? In metal it was $15 which was high for old sculpts that are single piece models. Now in Finecast they are $29, same sculpts cheaper medium, slightly more work.

No one asked for Finecast, no one wants it in the form it's at.

So for those, yes GW could stop it.

And let's not pretend like GW is strapped for profit once they've paid the bills. The business is run by what appear to be 5 year olds with no concept of long term viability. They squeeze every penny they can out of the market, and expect stupid fast turnaround on their customer base.

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's not pretend this is about maintaining access to OOP models (a cause I can sympathize with, if the model is genuinely OOP and never coming back). The majority of recast sales are of things GW currently produces.

Peregrine, I am shocked. We have found common ground

The only items I feel no qualms about purchasing are items that are out of production. That's my personal line, I understand everyone has different ones.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I wonder if they'll move into the recasting of finecast and if so, whether they will have a better quality control than GW?

They'd have to get a perfect finecast cast to mould their recasts off of. So no, it ain't gonna happen. /snide

But they might get a finecast model, properly fix it with putty and then make moulds of that, producing a higher quality product in metal than the original finecast. A friend of mine bought some of the new necron finecast releases in metal off of ebay and they were way, way better than GW's crap.

As for legality, China is not a western democracy. I don't believe the sellers are actually violating any Chinese laws. Whether or not importing goods you know to be counterfeit for personal use is a crime will vary based on your jurisdiction.

 Aerethan wrote:
Pirating =/= theft. GW didn't lose something they made. They were pirated.
GW didn't have something stolen off the shelf. You can't compare the two at all. A lost sale? sure, but lost sales are not the same as shrink/theft.

Technically it is counterfitting, not piracy. Still, the end result is the same. Did GW/FW get any money for the figure you purchased? If you had bought a legitimate figure, even on the secondary market, they would have. If you bought a counterfit figure then they did not. You could say that it is the guys doing the counterfitting who are guilty of stealing money from GW, but by buying those counterfit products you are complicit in the act. Also, the US and UK have laws in place regarding counterfit of physical goods so don't think your file-sharing analogy will help you if you wind up in court.

Yeah, they're just dodging GW again. There is something wrong with your business model when a hobbit has acceptable knock offs. I look forward to finding them yet again.

Heh, i always miss these places

 Kanluwen wrote:

Irrelevant. You bought a model produced by them, opting for the illegally produced option rather than the legally produced option.

Or maybe, they bought a model produced by them, opting for the illegally produced option rather than nothing.

I don't agree with counterfeiting, but I don't agree with equating it with a lost sale either. Your model implies that the person who buys from a recaster would have bought the item at any price from the original seller and that's clearly not true.

Somewhat more on-topic, Coolcast had the Tyranid Brood Nest on their site recently. Ironically, it was priced higher than the last price I saw it for on Forge World's website but when I checked FW the thing was out of production...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

And if I bought a (legit) FW model off of eBay for cheaper than what FW is selling it for, is that a sale 'lost', even though the model is 100% legit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you buy the product that GW sells from Coolcast?

If yes: That is a sale that GW did not receive. The only way you could make this argument is if it's OOP models, but even then it's still a bit of a logical fallacy as the original product is still available on the market.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

And if I bought a (legit) FW model off of eBay for cheaper than what FW is selling it for, is that a sale 'lost', even though the model is 100% legit?

OFC it is plus living in embargoland makes us elligible for a 60 pounds GW tax that we are supposed to pay praising our beloved overlords.
I never bought from a recaster but after GW's 2011 antics for the Asia-Oceania markets if I ever order from GW it will be a miracle.

M.

 Marthike wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
The site is not shut down, nor are the FW products gone.

Boys and Girls, expect to see Revenant and Phantom Titan dropping in 3 weeks from now.

*Edit, actually the next wave are already out, just not on a private owned website .

 leroy233 wrote:
I didnt even know that these sites were available, i thought gw would trample on all who defy them.

I know what they do is wrong but some of the fw stuff is just plain expensive.

If they drop the price people would buy more stuff, well i would anyway.

Are there anymore site like this?

Thats what GW fans want you to believe, they tell you the quality is bad, which is actually superior.
They tell you the shipping is slow, but its 3 weeks and free shipping.
They tell you its cheap because sweat shop. Well if you call 3 people in a kitchen sized room a sweat shop.
They tell you why GW is expensive, yet I can tell you the recasters are making high % of profit still, even at a fraction of FW price.

However....... I don't like pirates and recasters, and that link still links to recasts, which is still not ok.
Reporting link.

 Kanluwen wrote:
*point and laugh*

Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

Don't know what to tell you.... there are at least 10 other re casters I can find.

http://i.imgur.com/XLM5A.jpg

That is expensive for a recast. £16.8

Its $26 for the whole model, the currency displayed was... Chinese dolla


And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.

I mean sure, I guess I can understand when the beloved company gets out done by pirates, yet
if you really love FW, you would ask them to step up their game, instead of making false information up to make FW ( AND FINECAST ) look better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:

It does seem quite inconsistent, except that the links are going to a place that explicitly doesn't sell GW recasts anymore, so I dont see how it's helping - they don't use redirects on the site so whenever the replacement goes up knowing the URL for the old shop won't help

Because, the link specifically links to a counterfeiter site, ATM they halt carrying FW, GW items,
which does not mean they dont carry pirated items.
Quoting myself, If one cares about something, its an issue, if they dont, then its drama.
We shouldn't be mad against counterfeiters only because they recast FW items... we should be against counterfeiter because counterfeiting is wrong....

Lastly, this thread lets people know counterfeiters exists ( which many didnt earlier )
now they'll be looking for them,

AND when that website decides to continue their shenanigan, then what? removing the link would be too late then.

Yet, it's not restricted to FW. And it has nothing to do with them being "FW employees".

Forge World, for the span of a year or so in 2009, explored mass manufacturing by contracting out production to a Chinese firm.
As BrookM mentioned, there was a hefty run of Elysian Drop Troops done in China. There was also a run of Death Korps of Krieg, various Marine Dreadnoughts, and other "high volume" items which sell in droves.

In order to do so--they would have to provide molds to the Chinese firm for production purposes.

Supposedly production numbers and quality were not acceptable for the amount the firm was charging, with a large number of the master molds provided to the firm "walking off" the factory floor and being replaced with shoddy molds.

So yeah. Clearly they never ever ever would have had the molds to work from.

Ever.

Simple question. What happens when you inject resin into plastic mold machine?

Also, what year was Decimator made.

What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

Oh I just want to know, what happens when you inject resin into a GW plastic mold machine. Since I have never tried yet, and you seem to know these things?

So... do you happen to know what happens?

Play nice guys....

What does this have to do with anything?

Forge World outsourced to a Chinese firm for awhile. That has nothing to do with plastic production, nor does it have anything to do with GW.

There are firms in China which do resin production, and FW contracted out to one of them. That requires them to give over molds for production.

It is not an uncommon phenomenon. I suggest you do some research.

It has to do with everything kan.

Just tell me, can you use GW plastic molds to yield resin products or not.
Im asking you because you are always at the forefront of claiming the nice casts are made by FW equipments.

 Kanluwen wrote:
What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

Everything actually.

Your assertion is that they were using the moulds given/sold/licensed to to them by FW to make their FW recasts. Thing is they were making resin recasts of GW's regular plastic kits and brand new FW resin kits as well. They're doing more than just using the moulds they had - they're making new ones.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

Everything actually.

Your assertion is that they were using the moulds given/sold/licensed to to them by FW to make their FW recasts. Thing is they were making resin recasts of GW's regular plastic kits and brand new FW resin kits as well. They're doing more than just using the moulds they had - they're making new ones.

Which as Aerethan posted, isn't that hard. Garage operations can do that.

That still does not change the fact that the firm in question did have possession of FW's (and potentially GW's, depending on if they had been awarded the contract for the plastics as well) molds at one time when they were contracted and were making product using said molds.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Play nice guys....

Always am mister :3

So they shared it out with the others then?

They never needed the FW or GW contract to produce it, they just needed some way to acquire a model.

 n0t_u wrote:
So they shared it out with the others then?

They never needed the FW or GW contract to produce it, they just needed some way to acquire a model.

True, but having the original molds doesn't hurt any.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
So they shared it out with the others then?

They never needed the FW or GW contract to produce it, they just needed some way to acquire a model.

True, but having the original molds doesn't hurt any.

And realizing counterfeiters doesn't need to use FW molds to produce BETTER products doesn't hurt either.

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.

Any proof, or just pulling opinions out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

Running a factory with hundreds of employees versus a shop floor of dozens plays a large part in that.

And I would be very interested to see exactly how many casts these counterfeiters go through before they get these "flawless" casts given the nature of resin casting.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Running a factory with hundreds of employees versus a shop floor of dozens plays a large part in that.

And I would be very interested to see exactly how many casts these counterfeiters go through before they get these "flawless" casts given the nature of resin casting.

Oh now now, you are just back paddling.
What ever the chinese did, so can FW.

You are forgetting, producing additional only costs FW a few dollars to make sure you get a flawless product.

IF FW felt like it, they could, but nope.

Or we can settle with " pirates more competent than original "
or
"Pirates actually cares more about customers to throw away the flawed one, but hey! look! they are already surpassing FW in their QC and Customer Satisfaction support!"

Either way, all at the same time, still keeping the quality, and keeping the profit / business up.

Also, Not too sure whether resin can be re used or not hmmm


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.

Any proof, or just pulling opinions out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

What do you think? Also, the more you know, more power to you sir :3



B.I.N.G.O found some more

@Luna: Resin can be reused - but only as filler (You can either grind it into dust and mix it in like any other filler, or you can just sandwich bits of the resin in between fresh stuff.

Unlike metals, that just go back into the crucible and remelted down.

At the end of the day, it boils down to - How much am I going to pay for XXX model.

The way prices are these days? You are seriously nit picking these guys in china making bank?

FW should have though of that before sending the business out there, kept it local, and then at least they could have justified to exhorbant prices.

Then we could get into it over "Finecrap", itself. They charge MORE for the shoddy finecrap now then for Forgeworld.

No, it boils down to if you want to keep playing, you need to put it to Wart and company that they need to change the way they do business. OR face the loss.


On YOUR end, you can either pay 200+ for something, or 100. Thats not a real hard choice, at the end of the day.

The 100% disturbing thing for gamers should be- That the "Pirate" is doing the product BETTER then the standard issued stuff from FW. If I were FW, I'd be worried.


If you want to stop Pirated stuff, YOU would just not buy from them. ( Nevermind QUALITY! We WANT our bubbles and miscasts, Thats what makes them.... finecast!)


Thank you sir, may I have another!
(Google search- Chinese copyright infringement of Games Workshop) This is what comes up

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=chinese+copyright+infringement+of+Games+Workshop&oq=chinese+copyright+infringement+of+Games+Workshop&gs_l=serp.3...32820.39650.0.40197.25.25.0.0.0.0.662.5062.5j7j2j7j1j1.23.0.les%3Beqn%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue..0.0...1c.1.plif1tjnkF0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=11b8100df2353230&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=615

http://www.chillingeffects.org/copyright/notice.cgi?NoticeID=30508
http://www.mi40k.com/2010/05/10/warhammeralliance-com-sued-by-games-workshop/
http://samods.org/articles/wiz/warletters

etc.etc.etc.

And.... lets not even start talking about 3D printers.


On my end? I know about them, but even though I have no love for GW- I'm not going to buy any copy from someone over in another country so they can make bank if they can, rip you off, and possibly not send you jack for your purchase, or even send you some sort of biohazardous material.

Feth both of them, Feth GW, and the Recasters.

As long as GW treats me like a shill, they can worry about thier own handwringing and "Protection"- seeing as they lost over $5,000+ USD in sales from me annually for the past three years.

Just so you know, though- these products are not honestly reputable, no matter how "Good" you think they are.

Maybe you get what you paid for, maybe they take your money and you get nothing, or maybe even they give you a pile of medical waste, who really knows.


Google search for Chinese recast toy hazards

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=chinese+recast+toys+hazards&oq=chinese+recast+toys+hazards&gs_l=serp.12...4185.19214.0.20856.37.37.0.0.0.0.333.6431.12j9j3j12.36.0.les%3Beqn%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue..0.0...1c.1.bWCA9jDSPic&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=11b8100df2353230&bpcl=35466521&biw=1366&bih=615


buyer beware.

1. Coolcast will NOT be continuing under that URL. The company itself isn't called coolcast, or anything really. The site will be shut down at the end of the month(so they say) and they will likely open up a new one under a different name, but with the exact same pages and layout as before, which is what they did last time this happened.

2. Their access to FW molds is moot. They don't need them, and they don't gain much by already having them, other than perhaps a day or two of mold making up front.

3. Their casts are better because they bother to find out what works. As you can see they sell a lot more than GW/FW, and those items are also resin. They've been doing this a while and know what methods and resins will yield the best results. This is called R&D, something that FW should invest in.

Now at least Coolcast had the decency to use an off white resin, so you really can't argue that they are originals. Now the Russian casts are all in FW grey resin, making them pretty indistinguishable from the originals, thus allowing them to slide by on ebay so much.

And on that note, ebay casters don't have to prove that they AREN'T counterfeits if they don't look like it. To the average person they look legit, and ebay isn't going to start asking Russia for their FW receipts.

Honestly, Russia is the bigger threat here since they do almost the entire 40k GW line as well as a large chunk of the new Warhammer Forge stuff.


If GW was a company that earned some modicum of respect from me, I'd never buy another recast. As they are, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Stealing from thieves is still stealing, yes. But Robin Hood got away with it and won, so there's that.

Now quick, fanboys take everything I said out of context.

 Aerethan wrote:
Now quick, fanboys take everything I said out of context.

Yes sir! *salutes*

 Aerethan wrote:
... NOT ... really. The site [steals] FW molds [to] gain much...

[FW] casts are better [and] they sell a lot more than [Coolcast]... [FW have] been doing this a while and know what methods and resins will yield the best results. [Coolcast do not]. This is called R&D, something that [Coolcast] should invest in.

... Coolcast [has no] decency...

Honestly, [Coolcast] is the bigger threat here [and not FW].

If [Coolcast] was a company that earned some modicum of respect from me, I'd buy recast[s]. As they are, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Stealing from [FW] is still stealing, yes. But [I support Hiter] so there's that.

Clearly this man supports Hitler.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
Now quick, fanboys take everything I said out of context.

Yes sir! *salutes*

 Aerethan wrote:
... NOT ... really. The site [steals] FW molds [to] gain much...

[FW] casts are better [and] they sell a lot more than [Coolcast]... [FW have] been doing this a while and know what methods and resins will yield the best results. [Coolcast do not]. This is called R&D, something that [Coolcast] should invest in.

... Coolcast [has no] decency...

Honestly, [Coolcast] is the bigger threat here [and not FW].

If [Coolcast] was a company that earned some modicum of respect from me, I'd buy recast[s]. As they are, I don't lose any sleep over it.

Stealing from [FW] is still stealing, yes. But [I support Hiterl] so there's that.

Clearly this man supports Hitler.

You are my hero.

I just met you, and this is crazy, but I buy recasts, and like Hitler maybe?

 notprop wrote:
Cheap hobbiests are cheap.

These fellers will always exist for any product that is popular,
As will hobbiest that want or believe they deserve their toys at a fraction of the cost.

Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Then it will probably pop up somewhere else as those cheap hobbiests will still want cheap copies.

This would happen whether a SM costs 60p or £60, demand drives this as with all other scams.

China's business model is a monster created in the attic of capitalistic western world. What happens now (and probably more in the future) can only be described as poetic justice.

I bought a couple of Tyranid Spore chimneys from them, more than a year after FW decided to not sell them anymore. FW said they would have to double the price if they wanted to continue selling them, the Chinese sold them for less than original price. No lost sales, perfect quality, happy gamer.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I bought a couple of Tyranid Spore chimneys from them, more than a year after FW decided to not sell them anymore. FW said they would have to double the price if they wanted to continue selling them, the Chinese sold them for less than original price. No lost sales, perfect quality, happy gamer.

This probably has more to do with limited space and warehousing for FW, where continuing to sell something means they can't sell something else that makes them more and sells better.

 LunaHound wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.[/size]

Any proof, or just pulling opinions[/size] out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

What do you think? Also, the more you know, more power to you sir :3

What do I think?
I know that you have no way of knowing what goes on in China in any significant detail. You have an opinion of what you think you know goes on, but you actually have no real idea of what exactly goes on - with no more certainty than anyone else here. Claiming something like "100% false" discredits your posit, as you have no way of actually knowing what goes on in a factory on the other side of the world, despite your rather arrogant and misguided assertion. Though, I guess it's a bit of a habit. I'm probably going to put you on ignore now, as this isn't the first time you've come out of left field with this kind of rant filled with ...passionate opinion presented as hard fact (despite the language barrier).

edit - tags and typo

I say feth games workshop, they totally deserve this.

Scratch building used to be a thing when I first started the hobby, that's all this is.

Games workshop management just need to get of their high horses, realize that they are a toy soldiers company and dramatically cut their prices, this Chinese competition is healthy in my opinion and GW needs to learn how to be competitive in a modern market.

Other consumer goods continue to get cheaper or improve in quality/features, flat screen TVs, smart phones, laptops, games consoles, but GW products continue to go up in price without improvements to the product being made, it's unsustainable.

Frankly I'm surprised these sites get any business as they're so tricky to find for the uninformed.

I'm not sure how I feel about the morality of recasting, and I certainly don't have any hobby money spare, but I've tried to find some of these sites just to look and no luck at all.

If they are as cheap as is said and were easier to fall over in a Google search, GW and FW could have a real issue.

 LunaHound wrote:
Simple question. What happens when you inject resin into plastic mold machine?

 Kanluwen wrote:
What do plastic mold machines have to do with anything?

 LunaHound wrote:
Oh I just want to know, what happens when you inject resin into a GW plastic mold machine. Since I have never tried yet, and you seem to know these things?

So... do you happen to know what happens?

What happens when you try to use those molds for resin production is you get resin castings. You just have to use a special injection molding machine that works with two-component resins like these ones:

http://www.nisseiamerica.com/special.html

The molds for polystyrene can be refitted to be used with resins easily, it depends mostly on the type of resin being used. If the resin is too thin it will run out of the mold before it sets so you have to use a fairly viscous resin with a fast set time.

 scipio.au wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:

And to those in tin foil cast claiming the counterfeit items are made by FW MOLD AND EX FW EMPLOYEES.

^This is 100% false. Chinese counterfeiters does NOT use FW molds, and the majority of them are NOT FW employees,
NOR do they need any "FW" training to handle resin. They have been pirating garage kits for decades, FW is baby walk in comparison.[/size]

Any proof, or just pulling opinions[/size] out of ...whole air and calling it "100%" truth?

What do you think? Also, the more you know, more power to you sir :3

What do I think?
I know that you have no way of knowing what goes on in China in any significant detail. You have an opinion of what you think you know goes on, but you actually have no real idea of what exactly goes on - with no more certainty than anyone else here. Claiming something like "100% false" discredits your posit, as you have no way of actually knowing what goes on in a factory on the other side of the world, despite your rather arrogant and misguided assertion. Though, I guess it's a bit of a habit. I'm probably going to put you on ignore now, as this isn't the first time you've come out of left field with this kind of rant filled with ...passionate opinion presented as hard fact (despite the language barrier).

edit - tags and typo

Are you good at connecting the dots? If you are, I'll show you more info
Don't disappoint me sciipio, for someone that calls me out so strongly /gasp
I'll finish the rest of the "proof" you need when I get home, arrogance.... misguided assertion...?
Hmm its almost like you are describing another person in the thread xD
Don't worry, I'll back up everything I said later, just don't give me the same excuse of " **** your proof, I don't understand chinese"



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mechanicalhorizon wrote:


What happens when you try to use those molds for resin production is you get resin castings. You just have to use a special injection molding machine that works with two-component resins like these ones:

http://www.nisseiamerica.com/special.html

The molds for polystyrene can be refitted to be used with resins easily, it depends mostly on the type of resin being used. If the resin is too thin it will run out of the mold before it sets so you have to use a fairly viscous resin with a fast set time.

Thank you very much mechanicalhorizon, I wonder if FW uses these type of machines in china?
I assume they cost more than the single plastic material type?

Luna,

So none of these sites you're pulling images from ship to the US? Bummer.

Soliciting, advocating, or directly pirating IP on this site is a violation of our rules. Please don't do so, or we'll have to suspend your account.

You do know, however, that if you Post the links here, they will be deleted and the thread likely locked.

For obvious reasons, pretty much any website that doesn't want to get in trouble with legitimate companies cannot allow the advertising of recasting sources.

Soliciting, advocating, or directly pirating IP on this site is a violation of our rules. Please don't do so, or we'll have to suspend your account.

Thank you very much mechanicalhorizon, I wonder if FW uses these type of machines in china?
I assume they cost more than the single plastic material type?

As far as I've been told GW no longer produces anything in China except for printed material, which they've always outsourced (AFAIK). They did try to produce FW material in China when GW had their own manufacturing plant there but they had constant quality issues with more than just the models.

The first shipment of the (then new) Foundation paints had to be mostly thrown out since the paint lids were not being sealed properly in China so the paint leaked out of the pots during shipping. That's just one example of many problems I could list.

The cost of the resin injection machines is comparable to plastic injection machines. They are very similar except for how the material is fed into the mold, so about 1/3 of the machine is different than a plastic injection molding machine.

 RiTides wrote:
You do know, however, that if you Post the links here, they will be deleted and the thread likely locked.

For obvious reasons, pretty much any website that doesn't want to get in trouble with legitimate companies cannot allow the advertising of recasting sources.

Which is odd since it was said none of said sites shipped outside of China but ok, thanks for editing my post.

Stop being dense, posting such sites is against forum rules and is also incredibly stupid (assuming youre smart enough to figure out how to get around the overseas shipping dilemma). Cool casts issues started when the internet at large figured out its existence, both because GW gave em a hassle and too many customers and too little inventory makes for an empty store

chaos0xomega wrote:
Stop being dense, posting such sites is against forum rules and is also incredibly stupid (assuming youre smart enough to figure out how to get around the overseas shipping dilemma). Cool casts issues started when the internet at large figured out its existence, both because GW gave em a hassle and too many customers and too little inventory makes for an empty store

Instead of just assuming the worst of someone you don't know and being confrontational and rude; you could have just said that there are ways around the international shipping hurddle and I would have been fine with that. Not being "in the know" in such matters, I in fact was not aware that there are ways around the issue and it did not occur to me.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Sooner or later this blip will come to someone's attention in China (ie if/when Gw becomes relatively wide spread there) and they will address these individuals with the usual subtle Chinese law interpretation. Recasting/IP copying represents a significant stain on Chinas reputation and one that they will expunge as move rapidly toward the modern developed state they want to be/are.

Simply put...No.

Bigger companies have tried and failed to address China's counterfeit and knock off markets. In the best case scenario, they are ignored. In the worst case scenario, China actually rules that the original creators are in violation of the counterfeiter's right of production and sale within China and they are fined or locked out of the Chinese market for a period of time. China has no interest in addressing the issue - it isn't something which is in their interest to address, and their lack of action has nothing to do with not knowing about it.

In the modern economy, companies factor in Chinese knock offs into their business plan as assumed losses (not much different than assumed losses from shoplifters for retail stores).

QFT

If some of the biggest auto manufacturers in the world have got nowhere, GW have no chance.

If their largest restaurant chain is KFC and they have no problem copying their logos and branding, this is just a little blip.

I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Stop being dense, posting such sites is against forum rules and is also incredibly stupid (assuming youre smart enough to figure out how to get around the overseas shipping dilemma). Cool casts issues started when the internet at large figured out its existence, both because GW gave em a hassle and too many customers and too little inventory makes for an empty store

Im going to play devil's advocate though. The first post in this thread is already advertising the counterfeiter's website.
If anything was supposed to be allowed or not allowed, we should have seen it should we not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

boyd wrote:

FBC = flame broiled chicken
KFG = kentucky fried Gai ( chicken in cantonese )
KLG = Kentucky lucky Gai
MFC = My favorite chicken

xD

Yes, the first post did make the advertisement, but this thread is stoking curiosity to search for other sites. There are screen caps (albeit blacked out) of alternatives. These threads always end up turning into an argument about whats illegal or legal, as well as an advertisement for the many counterfeiters out there that do exist.

 Hulkster wrote:
Yes, the first post did make the advertisement, but this thread is stoking curiosity to search for other sites.

Doubleplusgood of you to point out these thoughtcrimes.

 Hulkster wrote:
Yes, the first post did make the advertisement, but this thread is stoking curiosity to search for other sites. There are screen caps (albeit blacked out) of alternatives. These threads always end up turning into an argument about whats illegal or legal, as well as an advertisement for the many counterfeiters out there that do exist.

Well thanks to this thread I'm making a dirt cheap barrel of monkys list, so yeh it's probably time to not only lock, but delete the thread too.

I will continue to buy from games workshop but anything that I consider to be vastly overpriced eg single miniatures and bitz, I'll now be getting from china, 40 pence per combi melta, booyah!

And no I'm not going to help anyone find my source so don't bother asking.

Exactly,

This thread is already contributing to further counterfeiter sales. Similar sites, although harder to find/order from, are gaining new customers as we speak. Forums should be careful not to repeat the mistakes of Bell of Lost Souls. This thread should be deleted, unless of course you actually WANT more folks to head over to Ta.... well you get the idea.

 Hulkster wrote:
I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

Says the guy with 13 gallery images, 7 of which are of models that are blatant ripoffs of GW IP.

Where does one draw the line of what is right and wrong? Is it ok to buy, paint and post pics of your models that are obvious ripoffs of GW IP? But wrong to buy a straight-up copy of a GW model?

I think if you researched it a bit, you'd see that GW has gone after those that originally made those GW IP ripoff models you have in your gallery.

They are cool models and I like them too but It really weakens your argument when you have such things in your gallery.

 Hulkster wrote:
Exactly,

This thread is already contributing to further counterfeiter sales. Similar sites, although harder to find/order from, are gaining new customers as we speak. Forums should be careful not to repeat the mistakes of Bell of Lost Souls. This thread should be deleted, unless of course you actually WANT more folks to head over to Ta.... well you get the idea.

Well as I said earlier, I think this competition is healthy for games workshop, companies that don't have direct competition stagnate, games workshop is stagnating.

Hopefully these copies become popular enough that games workshop management are forced to innovate, shake things up and cut prices to a more reasonable level, but they won't, because they are arrogant and ignorant to the real world, where competition exists.

 Hulkster wrote:
I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

True, dat. The post before your made me want to go get some delicious, oily, salty KFC chicken for lunch.

 scipio.au wrote:

 Hulkster wrote:
I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

True, dat. The post before your made me want to go get some delicious, oily, salty KFC chicken for lunch.

Here are the stuff you wanted. Since I took the effort to satisfy your curiosity, return the favor.

Tell me whats wrong in this picture. And the significance of it.
In case you aren't familiar with Eldars, you are looking at a Wraith Seer, which is a plastic resin hybrid kit with GW WraithLord and FW add on.
Get my drift?

Sigh...

Only DakkaDakka would try to defend Chinese knockoff companies.

These companies are scum and need shutting down.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Sigh...

Only DakkaDakka would try to defend Chinese knockoff companies.

These companies are scum and need shutting down.

This opinion is pretty ignorant, they are not doing anything against the law in their country.

That isn't saying much, Chinese law is...screwed up to say the least. They are making money off of someone else's hard work, and losing money from the people who actually made the original models. Chinese laws deliberately protect knockoff companies because they want to preserve Chinese business, no matter how morally objectionable.

Im assuming scipio realized the significance of the wraith lord seer photo? Anyone else want to deduce for fun? ;p

kan?

 Squigsquasher wrote:
That isn't saying much, Chinese law is...screwed up to say the least. They are making money off of someone else's hard work, and losing money from the people who actually made the original models. Chinese laws deliberately protect knockoff companies because they want to preserve Chinese business, no matter how morally objectionable.

Why should we have to pay more for an inferior product, from what I've read, many of the recasts are of a better quality than games workshop/forgeworlds own products, if it is the case, GW needs to step up their game or cut prices.

Why should we have to pay more for a storm raven than fully functional digital camera? Games Workshop do not make a premium product, they like to believe they do, but they don't. Games Workshop products are not art until they are painted by us, they are mass produced injection moulded plastic toy soldier kits, if someone can do it better and cheaper than them, then more power to them.

Games workshop as a company have existed without any major competition for around 30 years, this is the number one reason for the annual price increases we see, other companies adapt to cheap competing products from china or die out, and now it's time for Games Workshop to learn to adapt along with the rest of the consumer goods industries.

 LunaHound wrote:
Im assuming scipio realized the significance of the wraith lord seer photo? Anyone else want to deduce for fun? ;p

kan?

It's a complete resin kit not made by GW/FW......

Mike712 wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Im assuming scipio realized the significance of the wraith lord seer photo? Anyone else want to deduce for fun? ;p

kan?

It's a complete resin kit not made by GW/FW......

See, that was easy and fast, 100% spot on

I am a big fan of cheap foreign recasters, I get lots from them .
It's not really sales lost by GW either, I would not buy anything if I had to pay GW or FW ridiculous prices.
I hope this recaster does not give up after this small hurdle.

projectkmo wrote:

 Hulkster wrote:
I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

Says the guy with 13 gallery images, 7 of which are of models that are blatant ripoffs of GW IP.

Where does one draw the line of what is right and wrong? Is it ok to buy, paint and post pics of your models that are obvious ripoffs of GW IP? But wrong to buy a straight-up copy of a GW model?

I think if you researched it a bit, you'd see that GW has gone after those that originally made those GW IP ripoff models you have in your gallery.

They are cool models and I like them too but It really weakens your argument when you have such things in your gallery.

Hey, I never said what my own opinion was on whether its right or wrong, or where I draw the line. As you can see in my gallery, I have been around the block when it comes to rare minis. I just think, that as a site and community, if you frown upon promoting counterfeit sites then lock this thread. The curious will stumble upon all the alternatives that are out there, just as I did when I saw "hey somebody makes primarch models that dont exist!"

These threads always seem to turn into a debate about the evils of GW or those dastardly Chinese and there counterfeiting ways.

All I'm saying is that is that these piracy debates always seem to promote piracy. If as a community that is not something you want to do, a la what happened when belloflostsouls revealed miniatureshobby, then you should lock the thread.

Mike712 wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
That isn't saying much, Chinese law is...screwed up to say the least. They are making money off of someone else's hard work, and losing money from the people who actually made the original models. Chinese laws deliberately protect knockoff companies because they want to preserve Chinese business, no matter how morally objectionable.

Why should we have to pay more for an inferior product, from what I've read, many of the recasts are of a better quality than games workshop/forgeworlds own products, if it is the case, GW needs to step up their game or cut prices.

Why should we have to pay more for a storm raven than fully functional digital camera? Games Workshop do not make a premium product, they like to believe they do, but they don't. Games Workshop products are not art until they are painted by us, they are mass produced injection moulded plastic toy soldier kits, if someone can do it better and cheaper than them, then more power to them.

Games workshop as a company have existed without any major competition for around 30 years, this is the number one reason for the annual price increases we see, other companies adapt to cheap competing products from china or die out, and now it's time for Games Workshop to learn to adapt along with the rest of the consumer goods industries.

 LunaHound wrote:
Im assuming scipio realized the significance of the wraith lord seer photo? Anyone else want to deduce for fun? ;p

kan?

It's a complete resin kit not made by GW/FW......

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

Suppose you were a painter. You spent weeks painting beautiful landscape pictures. And then some bastard comes along, copies the picture, and sells it, making money off of your effort. And then because his prices are cheaper, you don't get any money for the painting that you had made. You would be angry. After all, you would deserve the money for your hard work, not some thief.

And that is exactly the case here. Recasting is theft. Theft is illegal and detestable. By buying recasts you are stealing money from the sculptors who deserve said money, and giving it to filthy criminals. So before you click the buy button, think about the blood sweat and tears that went into making the original model, before you give your money to some sweaty Chinese copycat.

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

And if you were buying those sculpted models then fair enough, but you're not, you're buying copies of the sculpts that can be mass produced for mere pennies, mass production on the scale that Games Workshop does should mean cheap models, due to economies of scale, but this is not the case. For the price we pay, the models should be assembled and painted to a near Eavy Metal standard, not simply a cardboard box full with some 99 pence worth of mass produced plastic gakk.

Suppose you were a painter. You spent weeks painting beautiful landscape pictures. And then some bastard comes along, copies the picture, and sells it, making money off of your effort. And then because his prices are cheaper, you don't get any money for the painting that you had made. You would be angry. After all, you would deserve the money for your hard work, not some thief.

This happens, it's not even illegal as long as you're not claiming that the one you are selling is the original, back in my oil painting days I used to paint and sell copies of famous paintings, it was fine because the people I sold to were aware they were copies not the origional.

And that is exactly the case here. Recasting is theft. Theft is illegal and detestable. By buying recasts you are stealing money from the sculptors who deserve said money, and giving it to filthy criminals. So before you click the buy button, think about the blood sweat and tears that went into making the original model, before you give your money to some sweaty Chinese copycat.

I understand perfectly that Chinese laws are different. However, those laws are wrong and need changing. Just because something is does not mean it should be so.

But then I imagine the only reason you support these recasters is because you are too much of a skinflint to buy the real thing.

Mike712 wrote:

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

And if you were buying those sculpted models then fair enough, but you're not, you're buying copies of the sculpts that can be mass produced for mere pennies, mass production on the scale that Games Workshop does should mean cheap models, due to economies of scale, but this is not the case. For the price we pay, the models should be assembled and painted to a near Eavy Metal standard, not simply a cardboard box full with some 99 pence worth of mass produced plastic gakk.

Nonsense.

As it is, biggest brands tend to be most expensive for consumer. It's a fact of life. Red Bull, Apple, Mercedes, Evian...

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I understand perfectly that Chinese laws are different. However, those laws are wrong and need changing. Just because something is does not mean it should be so.

But then I imagine the only reason you support these recasters is because you are too much of a skinflint to buy the real thing.

That's a textbook example of ethnocentricism, you don't see them that blatantly much these days.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
I understand perfectly that Chinese laws are different. However, those laws are wrong and need changing. Just because something is does not mean it should be so.

But then I imagine the only reason you support these recasters is because you are too much of a skinflint to buy the real thing.

Or maybe their laws(apart from their human rights laws which are nothing other than deplorable) are in fact better.

Don't presume to know my financial tastes, this is nothing to do with being a skinfilnt, hell I collect Star Wars Statues that cost £100s a piece, but if I can buy the same thing or something better and cheaper elsewhere I will do, that's just smart, it's basic consumer economics, something that Games Workshop doesn't seem to have the most basic understanding of because until now they have not experienced any significant competition.

If I feel like I'm not getting value for money, which I don't because Games Worshop products are horrible value for money, the perceived value and real value falls far below what they are charging then I will go to someone else.

I've spent £1000s on genuine Games Workshop and Forgeworld products, most dating back to when their prices were more sensible, now their prices are a rip off and they wont see much more money from me until their prices drop somewhere in the region of 40% or their product is substantially improved somehow.

Mike712 wrote:


You just don't get it, in China where this is happening they have different laws regarding IP they are not breaking the law by recasting Games Workshop/Forgworld or any other products, what you fail to understand is this is how the market in China works. You can buy a Luxury Mercedes in China, but it's not really a Mercedes, or a BMW, or an Iphone, they are Chinese companies simply using well know western companies IP to sell their products, there is no illusion that they are genuine, Games Workshop miniatures are small fry compared to the full scale of copping of IP that happens in China and happens all within the constraints of Chinese law. To call them criminals is simply incorrect.

Now please do some research before you try to argue a point of which you have little understanding.

Don't throw stones mr. glass house...

China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization. What they are doing in china *IS* illegal and breaking Chinese laws. China just has poor enforcement of many of these laws as much of it is local government enforcement. Just because it is widespread and ignored doesn't mean it is legal there. There is just little recourse for someone to walk into China, find an actual person infringing and then take them to court over it. As far as the officials know, these are legal castings until someone complains within china.

They are breaking the laws in CHINA. The china market 'works' because they have lax enforcement, don't investigate and ask questions and most of the companies being infringed upon have ZERO access to the country in question to bring the parties to bear in a civil court.

There is actually a China-Britain business council exactly for this situation and helping businesses have remedy for counterfeiters.

Also:
http://www.mac.doc.gov/China/Docs/BusinessGuides/IntellectualPropertyRights.htm

So please... do not spout garbage about how it is LEGAL in China and that makes everything ok. It is 100% not legal in CHINA and CHINA does see piracy as a real issue even though they lack the ability to enforce it.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
That isn't saying much, Chinese law is...screwed up to say the least. They are making money off of someone else's hard work, and losing money from the people who actually made the original models. Chinese laws deliberately protect knockoff companies because they want to preserve Chinese business, no matter how morally objectionable.

Why should we have to pay more for an inferior product, from what I've read, many of the recasts are of a better quality than games workshop/forgeworlds own products, if it is the case, GW needs to step up their game or cut prices.

Why should we have to pay more for a storm raven than fully functional digital camera? Games Workshop do not make a premium product, they like to believe they do, but they don't. Games Workshop products are not art until they are painted by us, they are mass produced injection moulded plastic toy soldier kits, if someone can do it better and cheaper than them, then more power to them.

Games workshop as a company have existed without any major competition for around 30 years, this is the number one reason for the annual price increases we see, other companies adapt to cheap competing products from china or die out, and now it's time for Games Workshop to learn to adapt along with the rest of the consumer goods industries.

 LunaHound wrote:
Im assuming scipio realized the significance of the wraith lord seer photo? Anyone else want to deduce for fun? ;p

kan?

It's a complete resin kit not made by GW/FW......

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

Suppose you were a painter. You spent weeks painting beautiful landscape pictures. And then some bastard comes along, copies the picture, and sells it, making money off of your effort. And then because his prices are cheaper, you don't get any money for the painting that you had made. You would be angry. After all, you would deserve the money for your hard work, not some thief.

And that is exactly the case here. Recasting is theft. Theft is illegal and detestable. By buying recasts you are stealing money from the sculptors who deserve said money, and giving it to filthy criminals. So before you click the buy button, think about the blood sweat and tears that went into making the original model, before you give your money to some sweaty Chinese copycat.

Your analogy assumes that the sculptors are not getting paid because of the recasts, which isn't true.

If you hire a commission sculpt, you pay for it up front. The artist doesn't generally get paid for each copy sold, he is just paid X for the original. So really, you can't compare that to an artist who never had his product bought because of a copy, as that is simply not the case here.

FW is getting screwed out of money, not individual artists. Now most FW sculptors are on some sort of salary I'd assume, and are not freelance designers. As such, they are still paid for their work, and it is managements problem if the company loses money, not really the artists.

I highly doubt that anyone at FW will lose their job from cutbacks caused by some black market activity and a loss of sales. They charge an insane premium, much higher than any other games company. If the prices were more in line with industry standards, then the black market would drop off becuase of the low difference in price.

FW sells 5 marines for $37, double the already high price that GW charges for plastics. On Ebay you can get that same kit, in the same or better quality of cast, for $26. If the FW ones were $30, then there'd be no real reason to buy the recasts, because $4 isn't going to break the bank, unless you are buying like 100 of them. An $11 difference for 5 models is significant though.

Let's look at another popular item from FW, the Contemptor Dreadnought. On FW's site, with XE.com's current rate, a Contemptor runs $48, and weapons run about $13. A GW Dreadnought is $46 and comes with 4-5 weapons, as well as optional parts and decor. So the FW Equivalent would be $113, well over 2x the GW plastic cost. Now that same Contemptor was on Coolcast for $21, with $8 weapons. The body itself is 50% of the FW price, and the weapons are 65% of the FW price. On Ebay Contemptor bodies are about $35, and weapons are still $8.

If FW closed that gap a little, then there'd be no real financial reason to buy recasts. Again, as someone who knows how much labor it takes to actually cast something once molds are already made, FW's prices are not in line with their costs, or they are paying people way too much to pour resin all day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for those thinking that Taobao has good prices, the recasts I see at first glance are way over priced. An example would be a Contemptor Conversion Beamer which goes for $12 USD is listed at 108 Yuan, which is $17 US.

So there's that.

China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization. What they are doing in china *IS* illegal and breaking Chinese laws. China just has poor enforcement of many of these laws as much of it is local government enforcement. Just because it is widespread and ignored doesn't mean it is legal there. There is just little recourse for someone to walk into China, find an actual person infringing and then take them to court over it. As far as the officials know, these are legal castings until someone complains within china.

China's government don't care and wont act as long as their economy keeps growing, the fact that China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization is simply a posterity measure to keep everyone in the west happy and quiet.

Where in the landscape picture analogy does it allow for the fact that the finished copy is a better painting than the original?

Mike712 wrote:

China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization. What they are doing in china *IS* illegal and breaking Chinese laws. China just has poor enforcement of many of these laws as much of it is local government enforcement. Just because it is widespread and ignored doesn't mean it is legal there. There is just little recourse for someone to walk into China, find an actual person infringing and then take them to court over it. As far as the officials know, these are legal castings until someone complains within china.

China's government don't care and wont act as long as their economy keeps growing, the fact that China is part of the World Intellectual Property Organization is simply a posterity measure to keep everyone in the west happy and quiet.

But don't pretend that you are supporting law-abiding citizens in a perfectly legal market transaction then when we all know that is totally not true. Just admit "I waaaaant it and I should get things I want" is your primary motivation and don't claim that you are supporting legal business with a country with different laws.

Actually China's government does care, and it is actually one of the less talked about issues in this presidential election. The US government actually is suing china over a bunch of issues, this being one of them.

The biggest issues they have is lack of manpower to investigate and lack of access to confirm claims. If companies don't register thier patents, copyrights and trademarks in China, they have minimal tools to do anything about it. Hard to enforce copyright infringement for a copyright chinese officials have no ability to confirm.

It is getting better, it is still rampant, and China is making effort even though compared to the west it is a joke. None of it makes it legal so let's just remove that pathetic justification from this discussion and keep it to the 'other' justifications.

I read that a few months back and found it hilarious that America think they can just "sue" China
Hahahahaha

Here's how that's gonna go:

US: We're going to sue you
China: Fine, because we're going to pay any fines by levying a large export tax on all goods we produce, like those many, many electronic components that go into your shiny new iPads and phones and computers and EVERYTHING.
US: Um..call it a draw?

I wish they'd levy a huge export tax.. We'd bring jobs back pretty quickly!

nkelsch wrote:

But don't pretend that you are supporting law-abiding citizens in a perfectly legal market transaction then when we all know that is totally not true. Just admit "I waaaaant it and I should get things I want" is your primary motivation and don't claim that you are supporting legal business with a country with different laws.

Actually China's government does care, and it is actually one of the less talked about issues in this presidential election. The US government actually is suing china over a bunch of issues, this being one of them.

The biggest issues they have is lack of manpower to investigate and lack of access to confirm claims. If companies don't register thier patents, copyrights and trademarks in China, they have minimal tools to do anything about it. Hard to enforce copyright infringement for a copyright chinese officials have no ability to confirm.

It is getting better, it is still rampant, and China is making effort even though compared to the west it is a joke. None of it makes it legal so let's just remove that pathetic justification from this discussion and keep it to the 'other' justifications.

I'm not claiming what I'm doing is legal once recasted products are imported to a country with stringent IP regulation like here in the UK it's breaking the law.

My primary motivation is that as a consumer I will chose the best value product, I wont pay over the odds if I can get a similar product elsewhere cheaper.

Like I said posterity measures, keep everyone happy, nothing really will be done.

Lack of man power, that's hilarious, there's over 1.3 billion of them, if they actually wanted to do something about it, it would be done and at a scale unimaginable to the rest of us.

blingman wrote:
I read that a few months back and found it hilarious that America think they can just "sue" China
Hahahahaha

Can you sue the people who are your primary creditors?

How much money do we owe China? What would we accomplish by suing them? Monetary damages?

And how does one sue an entire country? What court is that settled in? Whose jurisdiction?

 Hulkster wrote:

projectkmo wrote:

 Hulkster wrote:
I think this thread should be locked, its already giving counterfeit sites advertisement.

Says the guy with 13 gallery images, 7 of which are of models that are blatant ripoffs of GW IP.

Where does one draw the line of what is right and wrong? Is it ok to buy, paint and post pics of your models that are obvious ripoffs of GW IP? But wrong to buy a straight-up copy of a GW model?

I think if you researched it a bit, you'd see that GW has gone after those that originally made those GW IP ripoff models you have in your gallery.

They are cool models and I like them too but It really weakens your argument when you have such things in your gallery.

Hey, I never said what my own opinion was on whether its right or wrong, or where I draw the line. As you can see in my gallery, I have been around the block when it comes to rare minis. I just think, that as a site and community, if you frown upon promoting counterfeit sites then lock this thread. The curious will stumble upon all the alternatives that are out there, just as I did when I saw "hey somebody makes primarch models that dont exist!"

These threads always seem to turn into a debate about the evils of GW or those dastardly Chinese and there counterfeiting ways.

All I'm saying is that is that these piracy debates always seem to promote piracy. If as a community that is not something you want to do, a la what happened when belloflostsouls revealed miniatureshobby, then you should lock the thread.

If that is the case then I apologize. It was late and it seemed a little Pot/Kettle/Black-ish etc.

As I said though, I like those models in your gallery, especially the Horus one. I'm not excusing or condoning the IP infringement or the straight-up re-casting of models but I do understand that there are enough people out there (demand) over the years that would love to own model/s representing the various Primarchs etc such that if GW/FW were smart, they would have created/issued them themselves ages ago. Like so many of the various model/weapon options that are found in the various codices that don't have an official GW model. Someone else takes the initiative to design/create an acceptable stand-in model (which may or may not be IP infringement - see Chapterh**** etc) for those missing from the GW/FW line-ups.

As for straight-up re-casting - I know it's wrong and should not be encouraged/supported etc period.

That said, I have seen a number of re-casts and they were very high quality with little or no flash on any of the parts. It was if most of the items had been cleaned prior to being shipped. Packaging was well done on the few occasions we're I've witnessed an un-boxing. Bubbles? I don't recall seeing any actually. Bent and warped items? Again, nothing like I've witnessed over the years from FW. I recall one item I saw (re-cast) that had one blemish and had been filled (not sanded though) prior to shipping.

So I can understand peoples desire for better QC from FW. Even with FW's excellent CS (which I have needed a # of times and was/am thankful for) it would still be nice to see FW QC catch more prior to shipping, especially for those overseas.

Price? As many others have previously stated, there is a lot of money invested in the creation of new models which a re-caster does not need to worry about. I would imagine that most Asian re-casters have VERY VERY little overhead when it comes to employee wages/benefits etc. which would allow for them to sell at a much lower price. Even so, I'm fairly certain (though I can't back it up) that FW makes a very tidy profit on most of its kits such that they likely could lower prices and still do fine but again, I'm only speculating. So while re-casting is straight-up WRONG, I can understand the appeal to a lot of folks.

Who knows, maybe this will turn out like the music pirate issue... I believe there was some study recently that determined that people who have pirated music, also BUY A LOT more music than those who have not/do not pirate music.

Mike712 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

But don't pretend that you are supporting law-abiding citizens in a perfectly legal market transaction then when we all know that is totally not true. Just admit "I waaaaant it and I should get things I want" is your primary motivation and don't claim that you are supporting legal business with a country with different laws.

Actually China's government does care, and it is actually one of the less talked about issues in this presidential election. The US government actually is suing china over a bunch of issues, this being one of them.

The biggest issues they have is lack of manpower to investigate and lack of access to confirm claims. If companies don't register thier patents, copyrights and trademarks in China, they have minimal tools to do anything about it. Hard to enforce copyright infringement for a copyright chinese officials have no ability to confirm.

It is getting better, it is still rampant, and China is making effort even though compared to the west it is a joke. None of it makes it legal so let's just remove that pathetic justification from this discussion and keep it to the 'other' justifications.

I'm not claiming what I'm doing is legal once recasted products are imported to a country with stringent IP regulation like here in the UK it's breaking the law.

My primary motivation is that as a consumer I will chose the best value product, I wont pay over the odds if I can get a similar product elsewhere cheaper.

Like I said posterity measures, keep everyone happy, nothing really will be done.

Lack of man power, that's hilarious, there's over 1.3 billion of them, if they actually wanted to do something about it, it would be done and at a scale unimaginable to the rest of us.

You should take your own advice

You just don't get it, in China where this is happening they have different laws regarding IP they are not breaking the law by recasting Games Workshop/Forgworld or any other products,

Now please do some research before you try to argue a point of which you have little understanding.

Your utter lack of understanding of the legalities probably extends the the lack of understanding of the free market. I am curious what your career is? Most people have jobs as a direct or indirect result of the 'western' marketplace working the way it does, copyrights included... Blatantly disregarding the marketplace and breaking the law harms the economy and loses people jobs. It is part of the reason the world economy is in the state it is because people 'cheated' in the marketplace by not following the rules. Just because you think you are sticking it to GW with a vindictive attitude of entitlement, doesn't mean it is limited to hurting them as it hurts the economy as a whole. Multiply thousands or millions of people 'cheating' in various industries and various ways and it all adds up.

I don't knowingly do harm to other industries because I don't want to lose my job due to others having the same entitled selfish attitudes towards work I do. I either pay or do without... never consume without paying or via illegal infringing ways. I highly recommend 'doing without' as no one has the right to own things.

If no one has the right to own things, as you exactly said Nkelsch, then GW doesn't have the right to own it's designs, and more so all IP law is pointless.

If no one owns anything, then pretty much all matters of theft are void.

People have every right to own things, and that has been the case since the beginning of mankind, regardless of where mankind began.

Some cultures don't view certain things as ownable, such as native Americans and land. But those same cultures do accept ownership over personal property, such as clothing, tools, food etc.

If I don't have the right to own something, then neither does GW.

 Aerethan wrote:
If no one has the right to own things, as you exactly said Nkelsch, then GW doesn't have the right to own it's designs, and more so all IP law is pointless.
.

This isn't IP, this is copyright. And they do have the right to own their copyright.

You don't have a right to own a copy of their copyright. You can have a copy under their legal guidelines or not at all... this is where you don't have the right to infringe just because you "waaaaaaaaaaaaant it and should get things you want."

nkelsch wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
If no one has the right to own things, as you exactly said Nkelsch, then GW doesn't have the right to own it's designs, and more so all IP law is pointless.
.

This isn't IP, this is copyright. And they do have the right to own their copyright.

You don't have a right to own a copy of their copyright. You can have a copy under their legal guidelines or not at all... this is where you don't have the right to infringe just because you "waaaaaaaaaaaaant it and should get things you want."

But that isn't what you said. You said

I highly recommend 'doing without' as no one has the right to own things.

So if no one has a right to own things, then neither does GW. Copyrights are ownership, and IP is copyrightable.

And what I can or can't do has little to do with legal guidelines. Just because something is illegal doesn't make it a) wrong, or b) impossible. Plenty of countries have laws that outlaw things that most of us consider morally acceptable, like women showing their faces, or heaven forbid their hair.

Secondly, just because something is illegal doesn't make it impossible to do. I speed on the freeway when traffic permits, as I don't particularly enjoy driving 90 miles to go visit family every other weekend. Do I feel a single bit of remorse or guilt about it? No. Is it illegal? Absolutely. Legality has very little bearing on my moral perception of an action, especially when it's a law that I had no input on.

We live in a country where other people made the rules, and we are expected to abide by them whether we agree or not. In fact, almost every lawmaker in this country is out of touch with the very people who have to obey those laws. Speed limit laws are predicated on the idea that I don't know how to safely drive at 100 MPH, which is in no way true, especially when it's on a 10 mile straight stretch of freeway at 2am on a Tuesday and there isn't another car within 200' of me in any direction.

So no, I don't feel bad about breaking laws that I'm opposed to, or that were made without my input.

nkelsch wrote:

Your utter lack of understanding of the legalities probably extends the the lack of understanding of the free market. I am curious what your career is? Most people have jobs as a direct or indirect result of the 'western' marketplace working the way it does, copyrights included... Blatantly disregarding the marketplace and breaking the law harms the economy and loses people jobs. It is part of the reason the world economy is in the state it is because people 'cheated' in the marketplace by not following the rules. Just because you think you are sticking it to GW with a vindictive attitude of entitlement, doesn't mean it is limited to hurting them as it hurts the economy as a whole. Multiply thousands or millions of people 'cheating' in various industries and various ways and it all adds up.

I don't knowingly do harm to other industries because I don't want to lose my job due to others having the same entitled selfish attitudes towards work I do. I either pay or do without... never consume without paying or via illegal infringing ways. I highly recommend 'doing without' as no one has the right to own things.

No the market is the way it is because the richest and most powerful are greedy and short sited..... The rules that are in place actually assist in allowing them to make the poor and irresponsible choices that have caused untold repercussions for the economy.... and you question my understanding.. I feel we have very polarised opinions on this matter and while I'm not opposed to capitalism in the slightest I am opposed to capitalistic greed, it will be the downfall of all of us.

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

 Aerethan wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

I can assure you that my services go far beyond anything that an Indian call centre can offer, my business ethos revolves around cutting costs for my clients while retaining necessary systems functionality, and no that does not mean pirated software and hardware that fell of the back of a lorry, so don't even go there okay.

 Aerethan wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

You would be surprised how low some 'contractors' can undercut competition when they illegally use software. One of the biggest problems we face in IT contracting industry is when companies undercut bids and then later find to have only they were able to be the lowest bidder by either not understanding or blatantly ignoring that the technology solution they pitched had a 200k software licence attached to it which wasn't legally obtained.

I have had three projects this year where we lost a bid to a low-bid small business only to 6 months later be approached by the client with a sole-source bid to take over because the only way it was 'cheaper' was through rampant piracy. If those people could beat us with open source products, hard work and knowledge, more power to them. If they have to do it through ignorance and illegal practices, then they deserve to be found out.

Every industry is impacted by greed and it is not always the people at the top, the self-employed, small businesses cheat just as much as the big guy, it happens at all levels.

And I never speed, and I come to full and complete stop at red lights before turning right... I actually did so before we had red-light cameras on every corner which do not allow drivers to motor through intersections even if they 'think' it is clear because we have way too many pedestrian deaths due to the human brain ignoring unexpected input like pedestrians. I have about 150 speed/redlight cameras within a 5 mile radius of my house and it does save lives. I do not speed because it directly harms people in my community.

Man I hate chinese miniatures, no matter how many you order you're always hungry again in half an hour.

Red light cameras huh?

I think we've veered off topic a bit.

nkelsch wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

My career? Drug dealer, Pimp, Attorney to the rich and famous! No really, I work in IT, with some background in business, self employed, I provide very reasonably priced advice and support for individuals and other small businesses.

And he manages to survive even though India offers the same services at lower prices >.>

You'd think FW could.

You would be surprised how low some 'contractors' can undercut competition when they illegally use software. One of the biggest problems we face in IT contracting industry is when companies undercut bids and then later find to have only they were able to be the lowest bidder by either not understanding or blatantly ignoring that the technology solution they pitched had a 200k software licence attached to it which wasn't legally obtained.

I have had three projects this year where we lost a bid to a low-bid small business only to 6 months later be approached by the client with a sole-source bid to take over because the only way it was 'cheaper' was through rampant piracy. If those people could beat us with open source products, hard work and knowledge, more power to them. If they have to do it through ignorance and illegal practices, then they deserve to be found out.

Every industry is impacted by greed and it is not always the people at the top, the self-employed, small businesses cheat just as much as the big guy, it happens at all levels.

And I never speed, and I come to full and complete stop at red lights before turning right... I actually did so before we had red-light cameras on every corner which do not allow drivers to motor through intersections even if they 'think' it is clear because we have way too many pedestrian deaths due to the human brain ignoring unexpected input like pedestrians. I have about 150 speed/redlight cameras within a 5 mile radius of my house and it does save lives. I do not speed because it directly harms people in my community.

And now you are insinuating that I pander pirated software to clients, buying copies of toys from china and distributing pirated software which would be commercial suicide for me are leagues apart, I have a stellar reputation and can easily back that with references from past clients.

I can charge less because by comparison other companies overcharge, £60-£80 labour costs to fit a new laptop screen is the norm, it's a 30 minute job at most and I charge accordingly.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Red light cameras huh?

I think we've veered off topic a bit.

If only this thread had cameras to make us all post more safely

Mike712 wrote:


And now you are insinuating that I pander pirated software to clients, buying copies of toys from china and distributing pirated software which would be commercial suicide for me are leagues apart, I have a stellar reputation and can easily back that with references from past clients.

I can charge less because by comparison other companies overcharge, £60-£80 labour costs to fit a new laptop screen is the norm, it's a 30 minute job at most and I charge accordingly.

Actually I was pointing out your industry is directly impacted by copyright infringement and someone not playing by the rules can take food directly out of your families mouth... If you felt it was mirroring anything within your oganization or buisness practices, that is on you.

Mike712 wrote:
And if you were buying those sculpted models then fair enough, but you're not, you're buying copies of the sculpts that can be mass produced for mere pennies, mass production on the scale that Games Workshop does should mean cheap models, due to economies of scale, but this is not the case. For the price we pay, the models should be assembled and painted to a near Eavy Metal standard, not simply a cardboard box full with some 99 pence worth of mass produced plastic gakk.

You do realize that the cost of producing a model is not just the raw material cost, right? And that if GW sold their products for "mere pennies" they'd be bankrupt within a week?

Now please do some research before you try to argue a point of which you have little understanding.

Which is ironic given your lack of understanding of economics.

nkelsch wrote:

Actually I was pointing out your industry is directly impacted by copyright infringement and someone not playing by the rules can take food directly out of your families mouth... If you felt it was mirroring anything within your oganization or buisness practices, that is on you.

Then maybe you should not have quoted me when you wrote that, doing so makes it seem as the comment was directed at me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

You do realize that the cost of producing a model is not just the raw material cost, right? And that if GW sold their products for "mere pennies" they'd be bankrupt within a week?

Yes I am fully aware of all the costs involved, the design of the original, the forging of the moulds which in the case of plastics can run into hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds, the packaging, transportation, marketing, upkeep of the facilities and Games Workshops own stores, and so on, still with all that factored in with the volume that GW produce they are still massively over priced for what they are, mas produced injection moulded plastic, which as mediums goes is dirt cheap.

Mike712 wrote:
Yes I am fully aware of all the costs involved, the design of the original, the forging of the moulds which in the case of plastics can run into hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds, the packaging, transportation, marketing, upkeep of the facilities and Games Workshops own stores, and so on, still with all that factored in with the volume that GW produce they are still massively over priced for what they are, mas produced injection moulded plastic, which as mediums go is dirt cheap.

Where exactly do you get your standards for what a "fair" price is and where the "overpriced" line is? And why does the medium matter when the raw material costs are only a small part of the final cost of the item?

 Peregrine wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
Yes I am fully aware of all the costs involved, the design of the original, the forging of the moulds which in the case of plastics can run into hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds, the packaging, transportation, marketing, upkeep of the facilities and Games Workshops own stores, and so on, still with all that factored in with the volume that GW produce they are still massively over priced for what they are, mas produced injection moulded plastic, which as mediums go is dirt cheap.

Where exactly do you get your standards for what a "fair" price is and where the "overpriced" line is? And why does the medium matter when the raw material costs are only a small part of the final cost of the item?

It's nothing to do with the raw materials, the process as a whole at the scale at which GW carries out their business is inexpensive.

To get an idea of what is a fair price you have to compare it to similar product. In comparison to other forms of model kit/toy GW kits are overpriced and have been increasing in price at a rate far exceeding inflation year on year, if you're going to argue that GW products are good value, well I don't know...seriously

Yes I am fully aware of all the costs involved, the design of the original, the forging of the moulds which in the case of plastics can run into hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds, the packaging, transportation, marketing, upkeep of the facilities and Games Workshops own stores, and so on, still with all that factored in with the volume that GW produce they are still massively over priced for what they are, mas produced injection moulded plastic, which as mediums goes is dirt cheap.

Remember though, the designers/sculptors/concept artists are hourly wage earners so the cost of making the sculpts and concepts is spread out over a large period of time (between 3-5 months) and they are also working on more than one project at a time.

The silicone molds used for metal casting cost between $30-$40 each and can last for over a decade. I don't have costs for Finecast molds, but I was told they use a similar process to molds made for metal casting so the cost would be comparable. Even less per figure since the weapons and arms are sprued together with the body so you have less molds to make than when they were sold in metal separately.

The steel/aluminium tools used for plastic injection molding are also made by hourly staff with CNC machines so the cost of those is far less than what you would think. I was told by several managerial level staff at GW Lenton that the steel/aluminium tools cost a few thousand to make for squad size sprues and the tools usually have 2 sprues cut into them. Larger sprues like the Mumakil etc do cost more, but nowhere near the hundreds of thousands of dollars you guys think they cost. GW used to have them made out-of-house by another company, back then they were expensive. But not anymore.

A while back there was a spreadsheet posted with some of the Direct Sales codes that had some of the costs listed. Those match up with what I have in my old spreadsheets so you can get an idea of how little it really costs GW to produce a single sprue or component. I'm sure the cost of Finecast is less, but the labor involve din producing Finecast is more than metal, but the individual cost of components should be about the same (give or take a few cents).

The other costs like marketing, package design etc are spread out over several departments so they have their own way of tracking and paying for their costs.

This, I call it Exhibit B
For anyone still claiming pirates using GW, FW molds to yield flawless counterfeits? I shall put an end to that silly argument.
Anyone please feel free to deduce the significance of this new picture.

Mike712 wrote:
To get an idea of what is a fair price you have to compare it to similar product. In comparison to other forms of model kit/toy GW kits are overpriced and have been increasing in price at a rate far exceeding inflation year on year, if you're going to argue that GW products are good value, well I don't know...seriously

Except for one little problem here: GW's models aren't really much different in price per model than other 28mm games. The only people who are selling stuff significantly cheaper are either the dedicated "cheap model" companies that produce an inferior product, or small-scale companies with a handful of models and all of the work done by a single person as a hobby.

 Peregrine wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
To get an idea of what is a fair price you have to compare it to similar product. In comparison to other forms of model kit/toy GW kits are overpriced and have been increasing in price at a rate far exceeding inflation year on year, if you're going to argue that GW products are good value, well I don't know...seriously

Except for one little problem here: GW's models aren't really much different in price per model than other 28mm games. The only people who are selling stuff significantly cheaper are either the dedicated "cheap model" companies that produce an inferior product, or small-scale companies with a handful of models and all of the work done by a single person as a hobby.

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=1393

36 models for $29US, made by GW sculptors, in plastic. That is $.80 per model. GW's average 10 man box is $24.75, 3x the cost of Perry Minis. They are hardly inferior.

Also, you can't compare price per model against other games. Warmahordes requires far fewer models to play the game for example.

So really you have to look at the cost to play the game, in which case GW is the most expensive by a large margin.

There are plenty of other companies that make perfectly fine looking models for much less than GW. The difference is that those companies don't make brick and mortar stores with ludicrous rent in areas that don't need them. The price for all those GW stores is tacked on to the retail price I guarantee. GW survived just fine without having their own stores down the street from LGS's. And honestly, any place that doesn't already have an LGS in it probably can't support such a niche store, let alone one that ONLY sells GW product.

Let's not pretend that GW is doing everything in their power to promote healthy competition or heaven forbid promote wargaming as a hobby in general. They pretend that no one else makes models, and they price like there is no competition, which is a rather head in the sand approach to business that will eventually fail terribly.

EDIT: so Perry Miniatures has an army deal on those ACW models:

D1 Union Army Deal 20 x boxes of plastic Infantry, 4 x boxes of plastic Cavalry, 6 x metal artillery packs, 3 high command metal mounted figures ( 720 Infantry, 51 Cavalry 24 artillerymen and 6 guns)
£300 or $482 USD. Show me a GW army that will yield 800 models for under $500.

 Aerethan wrote:
36 models for $29US, made by GW sculptors, in plastic. That is $.80 per model. GW's average 10 man box is $24.75, 3x the cost of Perry Minis. They are hardly inferior.

Do the historical models also come with the extra options that GW kits usually include?

Also, you can't compare price per model against other games. Warmahordes requires far fewer models to play the game for example.

Why not? The question here isn't overall price to play, it's whether particular models are overpriced, and whether that overpricing is severe enough to ethically justify IP theft. And the only thing that matters for that is price-per-model for roughly equivalent models.

Let's not pretend that GW is doing everything in their power to promote healthy competition or heaven forbid promote wargaming as a hobby in general. They pretend that no one else makes models, and they price like there is no competition, which is a rather head in the sand approach to business that will eventually fail terribly.

What does that have to do with anything? The wisdom of GW's business plan has nothing at all to do with whether or not their products are "overpriced" in some objective sense.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

You are missing the point. The sculptors and model designers of GW and FW put a lot of effort into making those models. Recasters are making money off of someone else's hard work, and drawing money away from the people who put all that effort into making those models.

Suppose you were a painter. You spent weeks painting beautiful landscape pictures. And then some bastard comes along, copies the picture, and sells it, making money off of your effort. And then because his prices are cheaper, you don't get any money for the painting that you had made. You would be angry. After all, you would deserve the money for your hard work, not some thief.

And that is exactly the case here. Recasting is theft. Theft is illegal and detestable. By buying recasts you are stealing money from the sculptors who deserve said money, and giving it to filthy criminals. So before you click the buy button, think about the blood sweat and tears that went into making the original model, before you give your money to some sweaty Chinese copycat.

You are living in a dream-world. The sculptors aren't getting a cut of the proceeds of every model they designed in perpetuity for every copy of that model sold. They get their (no doubt miserly) salary, and the profits go to shareholders and executive bonuses.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
36 models for $29US, made by GW sculptors, in plastic. That is $.80 per model. GW's average 10 man box is $24.75, 3x the cost of Perry Minis. They are hardly inferior.

Do the historical models also come with the extra options that GW kits usually include?

Also, you can't compare price per model against other games. Warmahordes requires far fewer models to play the game for example.

Why not? The question here isn't overall price to play, it's whether particular models are overpriced, and whether that overpricing is severe enough to ethically justify IP theft. And the only thing that matters for that is price-per-model for roughly equivalent models.

Let's not pretend that GW is doing everything in their power to promote healthy competition or heaven forbid promote wargaming as a hobby in general. They pretend that no one else makes models, and they price like there is no competition, which is a rather head in the sand approach to business that will eventually fail terribly.

What does that have to do with anything? The wisdom of GW's business plan has nothing at all to do with whether or not their products are "overpriced" in some objective sense.

Ok, we'll go with objective arguments against the prices.

In 2000, a 19 man box of Empire soldiers was $25. It was a full multi piece kit that allowed tons of customization. In 2002~ that price rose to $30, with the statement that the increase was to offset profit losses on metals. The next year metal models increased anyway. In 2006~ that price then went to $35 for the exact same box, giving the same excuse as before. Then 2007 happened, and the Empire was redone. The old box was done away with, and a new boxed set structure was put into place. 10 models, at $22. Those models which are far less customizable and have all manner of God awful skulls and crap all over them as well as monkey faces and a lack of shoes. So subjectively an inferior product at an objectively higher price. So in 7 years the models went down in quality and went up 70% in price. And that was before the economy crapped out. So what happened when people could afford less in discretionary spending? GW instituted company wide price increases annually. Now that same box is $24.75 and since it wasn't raised this year, it will certainly be raised next year.

So since GW isn't exactly offering some staggeringly huge improvement in quality, but they are charging more, we can objectively say that they are over priced, especially when you look at Finecast quality versus the price increases those models saw for the EXACT same sculpt.

Forgeworld is a premium price specialty kit making division of GW. At the very least it's certainly worth noting that they can't seem to compete on casting quality with a Chinese knock off company.

Just think about that. Would any other company settle for quality worse than Chinese knock offs? Why does Forgeworld?

As for legalities, it's important to remember that China is still technically a communist country and any and all property rights are only extended so far as they are government exceptions to the official policy of abolition of property. China can sign all the international treaties about IP as needed to appease their customer nations, but that doesn't actually mean anything inside their own borders. They'll make a show of cooperating some times, but that's about it.

The US can sue China all they like, but China could simply sell, rather than buy, US treasuries to pay any damages and the damage to the purchasing power of the US dollar would be far, far greater than any cost to China in an international trade court case.

China will protect China. All the shows China puts on of closing counterfeit operations are only done on those brands that are produced in China by approved businesses with enough clout to get it done. That's not GW.

 Peregrine wrote:

Do the historical models also come with the extra options that GW kits usually include?

Not napoleonics, because it seems people don't want them as they'd rather they were easier to put together (though the Perry's often have multiple head options, sometimes as many as 4) However just go take a look at their WotR stuff for options. Also not every GW kit has a bunch of options, just look at the Bretonnian kits.

 frozenwastes wrote:
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Also, it's illegal in China for foreigners to own capital property, including business assets like IP. If you want to own a factory in China, you technically have to partner with a Chinese national and under local law the Chinese national has a 100% stake in the enterprise and is simply your supplier. So how do you handle the application of an international treaty about intellectual property inside a country that both forbids foreign ownership of the business asset itself, and only recognizes any sort of property rights at all as temporary exceptions to communist property abolition?

As someone who works for a company that owns a factory in shenyang, china, this isn't true -_- I think you're thinking of malaysia, where they used to require you to have a local citizen be the majority shareholder.

i always wonder about the people that keep saying that gw puts out a superior product and that's why they can charge as much...

maybe i'm just a jaded not so old gamer, i started in 98 where boxes were $15-20 for 16-20 multi pose miniatures. I can understand inflation and 'cost of materials' but every year even if its the same box sitting in the warehouse still gets a price increase you are telling me that's the way it's supposed to be?

it's the same people who blame knock offs and the second hand market for the price increase. it is not like you can say the customer service has increased, less RTT's, GT's and Gamesdays actually worth going to.

There is a market for this stuff sure, but at the same time there are a bunch of gamers in the dark that have no idea what;s going on. I remember walking into a gw store and saying that i got my oop minis from bartertown/ebay and received a bunch of dazzled looks that such a thing existed.

Like i said before maybe i'm just an jaded gamer but i just never really could understand what is up with people who play gw games having that whole 'beaten wife syndrome'.