as the title says, are the dark angels secret traitors?
i know that the they are supposed to be loyal but are they really?

what do you guys think?

No they are probably loyal...

TBH, it's not a mystery. Luther was falling to Chaos. He betrayed the Lion and nearly killed him. Some of the Fallen say that it was the Lion who was corrupted but there is really no evidence for this.

The real secrets they keep hidden are the things that they've done and the people they've double crossed in the search to capture the Fallen.

 Manchu wrote:
Some of the Fallen say that it was the Lion who was corrupted but there is really no evidence for this.

They said that because the Lion took time to get to Terra because he was playing hide and seek game with Kurze, what was exactly his plan.

"Tired of this constant battle the Night Hunter invited Lion EL´Jonson to parley on the planet of Tsagualsa. Here Konrad Kurze once again mocked the Dark Angels telling Lion EL´Jonson on how in the future the Dark Angels would be called into question as to whether they were truly loyal or just waiting on the sideline to join with who so ever won the battle. Being dragged back to their individual ships while flinging curses at one another, the Lion swore that he wouldn´t return to Terra before he had made Konrad Kurze and his legion pay for their insult against the Dark Angels, as such the Lion wasn´t present at the Siege of Terra and was unable to witness as the God-Emperor sacrificed himself to disintegrate the traitor Horus."

Obviously the Fallen was mislead to open fire on "traitor" Lion. The rest is one very sad history.

To the OP, the loyalist Dark Angels are truly loyalist.
As for Fallen, half o the mare fallen to Chaos after being pulled away and the other half remained loyal ( Cypher is one such example ). But I don't think that the loyalist Dark Angels will listen to them or let them go until Lion tells them so.

What are you quoting from?

"Prince of Crowns" and "Collected Visions".

Entire conversation is in there.

Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

What if the reason that Luther was sent back to Caliban was indeed because the Lion was unsure of his loyalties? What about if the Lion knew that Luther was 100% Loyal to the Emperor and he knew if he went with Horus that he’d never be able to turn his brother which is why he moved him out of the picture to let the story play out?

What if Luther found out about the Lions Heresy? And this is the reason that they were destroyed? A Primarch with so much hold over his followers has much power as we have seen, power enough to manipulate a story? What if the Lion actually did fall a traitor and the real truth the watchers in the dark hold is this fact? A truth that would surely rip the legion apart. A truth that is held back for the greater good? And even to this day the legion believe that they are hunting Traitors from their own chapter.

His story always read to me that he was slightly tainted by the warp from growing up in the wild surrounded by it and the warp creatures (great beasts)in the northwilds of Caliban. But fought to keep it in check with feats of arms to prove his loyalty to the Imperium. That's why he went so mad at Kruze because he cut too close to the heart of the truth of his two sides.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

The Lion was loyal to the Emperor. He was the only person he was loyal to besides himself.

That sounds like something Luther would say.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

Dumb? For a 'MOD' you should be more considerate to its users. I thought the idea of a forum was to discuss, speculate and generally talk about different things. If we all had the same opinions it wouldn't make for much discussion now would it?

Anyway, there is plenty out there in the way of speculation that suggests that the lion wasn't your altogether straight forward loyalist.

Ooo yes, "the Lion" story shows that he has a hidden agenda...but this is new path from BL, which is very different from the old stuff...

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

What if the reason that Luther was sent back to Caliban was indeed because the Lion was unsure of his loyalties? What about if the Lion knew that Luther was 100% Loyal to the Emperor and he knew if he went with Horus that he’d never be able to turn his brother which is why he moved him out of the picture to let the story play out?

What if Luther found out about the Lions Heresy? And this is the reason that they were destroyed? A Primarch with so much hold over his followers has much power as we have seen, power enough to manipulate a story? What if the Lion actually did fall a traitor and the real truth the watchers in the dark hold is this fact? A truth that would surely rip the legion apart. A truth that is held back for the greater good? And even to this day the legion believe that they are hunting Traitors from their own chapter.

this seems to make sense. although if the lion was a traitor, why would Luther want to be absolved by him? one final victroy as the imperium, and the dark angels cheifly, find out the truth of the lion, that he is a traitor?

Personally speaking I think the way the HH series is going there could be a lot of rewriting of fluff for the DA. The authors themselves have already said that they have artistic lisence on the stories they produce. We've already seen a few twists that have got people up in arms.

I think it would be a great story line. The HH was tragic enough for the imperium as it was but can you imagin the impact on the DA to find that all this time the reason they have been hunting the fallen is because they knew that the Lion was a traitor and have been manipulated into think otherwise?

I'm not saying that the DA are in anyway currently tainted or traitor I'm suggesting that the 'holders of the truth' are manipulating a scenario to keep the legion together. The impact of knowing that their own primarch lied to them and ultimately made them turn their own guns on them to protect himself would break it apart.

So they continue to hunt the only people that know different.

I think it's more of a case of the Lion wanting to hold power and being denied at every turn to hold true power and display his real potential. He often struggled with belonging to a greater universe and purpose and especially with being truthful to himself and who and what he was. It's a common occurrence with survivors who lived alone for such a long time alone.

As far as the whole dark secret thing, It's more like he was to falling to Chaos (wanting power but on his terms), but reneged on the deal as the heresy unfolded, unable to decide if he wanted power for himself or to uphold his faith in the Big E. When Conrad called him on his indecision, he felt pushed, especially with the lost of faith and neglect of his second, Luther. Hence the major push to get back to Caliban, so he could sort himself out.

I would bet that the thing of it is that neither he nor Luther truly fell, but were made to believe that their faith in one another was lost (mostly due to the Lion's inability to trust and have faith in others) causing the only true civil war. With each side acting out at one another blindly, goaded into action, without checking into the reality of the situation (Luther could have been fending off invasion and mistook the fleet for an enemy, and the Lion already suspicious and possibly chasing a foe, made a snap judgement).

The Fallen are survivors who know whom in the Imperium pushed the fracture and the reasoning why the Legion was split.This is what enabled the Horus Heresy could fall out like it did, since the Dark Angels were the last Legion capable of bailing out Terra in time, but got caught up in the crossfire of deceit, most like due to the Alpha Legion/Night Lords interference.

Additionally I would bet that the Unforgiven are traditionally the faction that stayed true to Lion (and Imperium),eventually realizing (at least initially) that the Fallen were largely innocent of wrong doing. But since the Imperium demanded a reason and a price for the lack of Dark Angels aid, blame had to be placed somewhere, so they are forced to chase the Fallen so the Legion/chapter didn't get destroyed as Traitors. And like all Marines at the time, the Fallen largely fell to Chaos out of desperation for salvation and the hope of clearing their 'crimes'.

i

Many of the Fallen may not be traitors. They were simply tricked into what happened.

Of course the Dark Angels themselves arn't traitors. The Lion may have been though.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Dumb? For a 'MOD' you should be more considerate to its users. I thought the idea of a forum was to discuss, speculate and generally talk about different things. If we all had the same opinions it wouldn't make for much discussion now would it?

Are you saying that your opinion is that the Lion and the Loyalist Dark Angels are actually traitors? If so, it's still my opinion that it's dumb to think that. It's dumb because not only is there no evidence that they were traitors but there is good evidence that they were loyal. But I didn't take your statement to mean that you actually believed them to be traitors. Rather, I thought you were playing a kind of game where we ignore all the evidence and just make up crazy stuff. So, in such a game, we could say Horus was a loyalist. But my conclusion is, as I said, that this is just a dumb game.


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 Bloody Adair wrote:
It's more like he was to falling to Chaos (wanting power but on his terms)

How is this "falling to Chaos"? He was designed to be one of the leaders of humanity and that's what he did. He was second only to the Emperor and he never broke faith with the Emperor. He was prideful, yes, but that pride never came before his commitment to the Imperium -- unlike Horus.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
I would bet that the thing of it is that neither he nor Luther truly fell

Luther absolutely fell. He regretted it, unlike Abaddon and more than Ahriman, but he fell nonetheless.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
the Imperium demanded a reason and a price for the lack of Dark Angels aid

What? No one knows what happened to the DA except the DA. They are driven by their own sense of honor and dishonor, not the demands of outsiders.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Many of the Fallen may not be traitors. They were simply tricked into what happened.

A SM who can be tricked into betraying his Primarch is a traitor. The world of 40k has tougher standards than the real world in matters like this. SM are supposed to be faultlessly loyal. If there is even a tiny flaw, the whole of their loyalty is in question. This is why the DA are so obsessed with the Fallen in the first place.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course the Dark Angels themselves arn't traitors. The Lion may have been though.

Based on ... ?

Maybe at first neither were Traitors. And were tricked into turning in on itself. If that's the case it sounds like it went "All according to plan" either way I seriously doubt that the fallen haven't been tainted since then. This rendering the point kind of moot.

The problem is that the Fallen became the Fallen by being tainted. Whether they have become more corrupted since is a case-by-case issue. But they surely have not been redeemed. The only redemption for them is confession, repentance, contrition, death, and whatever punishment comes after that.

Exactly my point

 Manchu wrote:
That sounds like something Luther would say.

Probably because it is entirely true.

can i ask Manchu to be a bit less aggressive towards the whole thing. this is a discussion after all.

the lion may at least be tainted by chaos, he did spend his early life in a forest surrounded by warp mutated beasts after all and he does seem incredibly secretive (he could give alpharius a lesson or two)

Tainted? THE Lion?

Let me get you a seat over there where brother interrogator will have a nice and short interview...

Basically, BL shot this down with their HH-series.
Chaos aimed for 50% of the Primarchs, but only got 9 Legions to fall. The first Legion is the one they didn't manage to trap, the one not to fall. Even if the "fallen" make up for a significant part, the now "traitorLegions" had to "cleanse" their ranks of about 30% too.

A second in command, Luther , has been proven guilty of betrayal of Primarch, Legion and Imperium/Emperor. Those who followed him, aren't innocent. All you can question are the methods of the Dark Angels, but these are also common Problems of a lot of organizations right now in the 40k-verse.
Thus , there is NO secret. Trust me....

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
can i ask Manchu to be a bit less aggressive

Please check your tone arguments at the door.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
he did spend his early life in a forest surrounded by warp mutated beasts after all

And Sanguinius has giant angel wings. So ... ? Bringing up Jonson's youth like this is not an argument by itself. What exactly about surviving a Warp-tainted primeval forest do you think tainted him?


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 1hadhq wrote:
All you can question are the methods of the Dark Angels, but these are also common Problems of a lot of organizations right now in the 40k-verse.

Yep, well said. The DA are secretive because they are ashamed. But the source of their shame is their loyalty. This is the same dynamic that led the Lion to pursue (and eventually beat the gak out of) the Nighthaunter. You can question their judgment but not their loyalty. The same is true for Guilliman.

In defense to my statement about Lion and being tainted; even when one is entitled to power and has tons of it, does not absolve them of desiring more. And in being designed with the aid of Chaos, no Primarch is untouched. The difference lies in the upbringing of each and how they handled their problems. And the Lion did this alone, fighting against darkness alone.

Lion was supposedly 1st in succession and most like the Emperor in being the first born; it makes me wonder if the Lion had certain 'plans' and whether or not he was being manipulated by the Lords of Terra or perhaps even his brother Primarchs into isolating himself further. The problem is he is so darn aloof from everyone it's difficult to say where his true loyalties lie (Emperor, Imperium, or himself)

And besides all Luther really wanted was his Primarch to appreciate him and give him a hug!

On the subject of Luther; sure he gave into the lures of Chaos, but unlike others who embraced it, he mourned the decision and refuse to succumb completely.


And while no one outside of the DA may know the absolute truth, I doubt they (being programmed super-soldiers) know it either. My point was the Empire demanded a price for the Dark Angels to exist and serve after the Heresy because of the lack of support at the Siege of Terra. In the age after the HH (where everyone and thing was suspect), they were forced to hunt the Fallen, whether they wanted to (out a sense of honor) or not (survival).

I always preferred the "Angels of Darkness" take on things. I never liked the Lion, I believed Luther all the way.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
even when one is entitled to power and has tons of it, does not absolve them of desiring more

Why does one need to be absolved from desiring more power? If the desire for power is a sin, what does that make the Emperor? The sin we're talking about is disloyalty. There is evidence that Jonson wanted to be Warmaster. There is no evidence that he wanted to replace his father.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
Lion was supposedly 1st in succession and most like the Emperor in being the first born

Where are you getting this notion that the Lion was the Emperor's "firstborn"? The Primarchs were grown in vats. We have no sense of whether any of them were grown before or after any of the others. The DA are the First Legion but that has no correlation with Jonson's rank among the Primarchs.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
My point was the Empire demanded a price for the Dark Angels to exist and serve after the Heresy because of the lack of support at the Siege of Terra.

If you didn't make this up, can you provide a source? I think you will find that "the Empire" did not demand anything of the DA. Guilliman demanded the DA break the Legion into Chapters. But there is nothing in Codex Astartes about the Deathwing.


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 riverhawks32 wrote:
I believed Luther all the way.

On what basis? Your dislike of Jonson?

Loving the debate on this by the way, even if Manchu made me cry for calling me dumb. I think I need to state for the record the anything I've said is not necessarily what I believe it's just generalthoughts and musings.

Conspiracy sparks the imagination when there are gaps. The problem I have with the DA story is that it's taken from their perspective. History is written by the victors and the masses believe. I refuse to believe that the lion was whiter than white and Luther was blacker than black. The truth lies I between somewhere.

DILL3NGER wrote:
even if Manchu made me cry for calling me dumb

Your tears give me strength! In all seriousness, I don't think you're dumb (and did not call you dumb) but I think the idea that the Lion and the Loyalist DA are actually traitors is very dumb indeed.

DILL3NGER wrote:
I refuse to believe that the lion was whiter than white and Luther was blacker than black. The truth lies I between somewhere.

Fortunately, no one is saying either of those things. We generally agree that the Lion was a prideful man. And that Luther was not a ravening Chaos worshipper. Our disagreement is that Jonson's pride made him a traitor to the Imperium and that Luther's regret made him a loyalist.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
even if Manchu made me cry for calling me dumb

Your tears give me strength! In all seriousness, I don't think you're dumb (and did not call you dumb) but I think the idea that the Lion and the Loyalist DA are actually traitors is very dumb indeed

See this is where we’ve gone wrong.

I never said that the DA were or are traitor (I did say this in an earlier post), my intention was to say that there is a possibility that the Lion was thinking about siding with Horus during the HH and that their current DA beliefs about the Fallen are built on a lie. It’s clearly stated that The Lion was very indecisive when it came to siding during the heresy. I think it’s in the book ‘The Primarchs’ he confronts the Night Lords? And doesn’t obliterate them when he understands their intent which was very much in his gift. If memory serves me right he even knocked the head off one of his closest brothers for disagreeing with him. This is not the actions of a man that is sure of his intentions.

Now I go back to my point. Luther being sent back to Caliban to ‘Oversee recruitment’ is a massive bitch slap to his brother. There must be more to this story. I truly believe that The Lion had mistrust in Luther’s loyalties should he decide to side with Horus.

Upon his return to Caliban I think the Lions paranoia has gotten the better of him and to then destroy the only person that could sow doubt was the only action. The whole thing about Luther being tainted by Chaos isn’t exactly 100% due to the fact that supposedly the Lion and Luther eradicated the entire ‘Monsters’ from the planet when the Lion rose to power.

What makes the Dark Angels so interesting and special (best flavour of all SM in my opinion) is doubt. While raw and mundane facts imho clearly state loyal lion/treacherous Luther, the point where it starts to get interesting is that INDEED PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE OTHER WAY, because in the end it is not a question of who acted against whom, but a question of personal motivation... the facts interpreted the other way round make sense. You only have to question the Lion's personal motivation for his acts. Wasn't there a thought of the day that thinking is the road to doubt, and doubt is the road to heresy?
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt. Psychologically, their seclusive and secretive ways tell their big secret in even bigger letters. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR LOYALTY THEMSELVES! The small words "yeah... but, what if..." have taken roots in their souls, hearts and minds. They are not sure themselves about the loyalty of the Lion, not sure about the loyalty of the Fallen ones, not sure about the loyalty of their acolytes, not sure about their own loyalty. They "interrogate" the captured Fallen ones with such vigor, because there is only ONE answer they can stand to hear. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty not because they want to hide half of their brooderhood fell. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty, because there is this small whispering in their mind they cannot wipe out: "yeagh... but... what if..."

So in the end I believe the moment we find out the final truth will be the moment the Dark Angels are just another chapter with robed men and a monastery fortress. Let's norish that small flame of doubt, it's what makes the shadows deeper beneath those monks' robes.

(The second paragraph of this post is my personal psychological analysis of the Angels, not confirmed by quotable text passages. Yet Lionell Johnson's poem "Dark Angel" is about the same whispering treacherous voice you cannot silence...)

 Hruotland wrote:
What makes the Dark Angels so interesting and special (best flavour of all SM in my opinion) is doubt. While raw and mundane facts imho clearly state loyal lion/treacherous Luther, the point where it starts to get interesting is that INDEED PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE OTHER WAY, because in the end it is not a question of who acted against whom, but a question of personal motivation... the facts interpreted the other way round make sense. You only have to question the Lion's personal motivation for his acts. Wasn't there a thought of the day that thinking is the road to doubt, and doubt is the road to heresy?
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt. Psychologically, their seclusive and secretive ways tell their big secret in even bigger letters. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR LOYALTY THEMSELVES! The small words "yeah... but, what if..." have taken roots in their souls, hearts and minds. They are not sure themselves about the loyalty of the Lion, not sure about the loyalty of the Fallen ones, not sure about the loyalty of their acolytes, not sure about their own loyalty. They "interrogate" the captured Fallen ones with such vigor, because there is only ONE answer they can stand to hear. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty not because they want to hide half of their brooderhood fell. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty, because there is this small whispering in their mind they cannot wipe out: "yeagh... but... what if..."

So in the end I believe the moment we find out the final truth will be the moment the Dark Angels are just another chapter with robed men and a monastery fortress. Let's norish that small flame of doubt, it's what makes the shadows deeper beneath those monks' robes.

(The second paragraph of this post is my personal psychological analysis of the Angels, not confirmed by quotable text passages. Yet Lionell Johnson's poem "Dark Angel" is about the same whispering treacherous voice you cannot silence...)

This, this, this.

You sir are spot on.

DILL3NGER wrote:

 Hruotland wrote:
What makes the Dark Angels so interesting and special (best flavour of all SM in my opinion) is doubt. While raw and mundane facts imho clearly state loyal lion/treacherous Luther, the point where it starts to get interesting is that INDEED PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE OTHER WAY, because in the end it is not a question of who acted against whom, but a question of personal motivation... the facts interpreted the other way round make sense. You only have to question the Lion's personal motivation for his acts. Wasn't there a thought of the day that thinking is the road to doubt, and doubt is the road to heresy?
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt. Psychologically, their seclusive and secretive ways tell their big secret in even bigger letters. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR LOYALTY THEMSELVES! The small words "yeah... but, what if..." have taken roots in their souls, hearts and minds. They are not sure themselves about the loyalty of the Lion, not sure about the loyalty of the Fallen ones, not sure about the loyalty of their acolytes, not sure about their own loyalty. They "interrogate" the captured Fallen ones with such vigor, because there is only ONE answer they can stand to hear. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty not because they want to hide half of their brooderhood fell. They try to silence everyone who might utter a doubt against their loyalty, because there is this small whispering in their mind they cannot wipe out: "yeagh... but... what if..."

So in the end I believe the moment we find out the final truth will be the moment the Dark Angels are just another chapter with robed men and a monastery fortress. Let's norish that small flame of doubt, it's what makes the shadows deeper beneath those monks' robes.

(The second paragraph of this post is my personal psychological analysis of the Angels, not confirmed by quotable text passages. Yet Lionell Johnson's poem "Dark Angel" is about the same whispering treacherous voice you cannot silence...)

This, this, this.

You sir are spot on.

i have to agree with dill3nger. you probably have got it!!
it does make sense, and i thank you!!!
even the Lion actions could be put down to self-doubt, does he stay loyal to his distant father or does he break away?
the lion did want to become next warmaster, so the temptation to take more power was there at least.

 Hruotland wrote:
The theme of the Dark Angels is doubt. To be precise, it is self-doubt.

No, absolutely wrong. Read the fluff. The theme of the DA is secret shame. If you know anything about the single-minded way that they pursue the Fallen, you know they are not about doubt.

Shame can be brought on by self-doubt, and often is

love where you went with this hruotland!

 xcasex wrote:
Shame can be brought on by self-doubt

Sure. Back on topic, however, the DA seem to have no doubts as to their own loyalty or the treachery of the Fallen or their obligation to track the Fallen down.

What is the actual level of knowledge from say the front line legions to the supreme grand master as to who knows what?

I'm reading Ravenwing at the moment and it states that the average legionnaire is told that Horus killed the Lion. It also comes across that they are not even aware of the fallen. At what level are you indoctrinated into the mysteries of the DA?

Is there any proof that the supreme grand master azreal is even aware of 'All' of the facts? Lexicanum states that the watchers in the dark whisked off the lion to the deepest part of the rock. Has anyone actually seen him since?

DILL3NGER wrote:
What is the actual level of knowledge from say the front line legions to the supreme grand master as to who knows what?

Line trooper = knows as much as an Ultramarine.
Veteran = knows there are problems to be solved
Ravenwing = Knows not everything is as it seems and sometimes the mission is all that counts.
Deathwing = knows there are fallen angels and they need their help...
Inner circle = knows who these fallen are and how to identify them.
Supreme Grand Master = knows most of the story.

DILL3NGER wrote:

I'm reading Ravenwing at the moment and it states that the average legionnaire is told that Horus killed the Lion.
It also comes across that they are not even aware of the fallen.

WTF Thorpe???? " Horus killed the Lion. "

Isn't it preferrable to have a story that cannot be disproven so easily? Like " the Lion is gone since Caliban was blown up " , who would doubt the loss of a Primarch in such event?

DILL3NGER wrote:

Is there any proof that the supreme grand master azreal is even aware of 'All' of the facts? Lexicanum states that the watchers in the dark whisked off the lion to the deepest part of the rock. Has anyone actually seen him since?

Azrael knowns most of the facts, i guess. All of them? Maybe only the Lion himself...
And no. no one has seen the Lion since.
Except said watchers, who met him on Caliban early, who also acted as advisors in his time leading the Legion.
Still one of them carries a helmet for Azrael and the real question would be : your chapter master runs around with a small hooded figure in his tow, and youre supposed to be xenophobic, how does this turn out on a daily basis?

Manchu wrote:

xcasex wrote:
Shame can be brought on by self-doubt

Sure. Back on topic, however, the DA seem to have no doubts as to their own loyalty or the treachery of the Fallen or their obligation to track the Fallen down.

Yes, to the outside. They SEEM to have no doubts. Yet all this only begins to make sense if you postulate the one person/faction they have to persuade of their loyalty to the emperor are they themselves. The loyalists and the fallen have split long ago, and they hunt the Fallen down with all needs. If they were sure of their own and their primarch's loyalty they would not have to make so much hush-hush. They could openly declare "parts of our legion went the wrong path, but see, we do everything to undo them, for we, the rest, are loyal and steadfast as should be". Their enormous efforts to hide everything about it are a big confession there at least MIGHT be something wrong with themselves. The Fallen are a threat to their own loyalty, and not just because they fell. They mirror something of the loyalists what they fear. otherwise they just could declare them outcasts and demand a chance to prove their unshaken loyalty.

Well, in the end on the meta-level it might be a case of the beholder finding more meaning in a work of art than the artist ever meant to express. Like the Dada movement, or the Southpark series. But the fact the writers might not have intended it does not mean this level of meaning is not inherent to it. Even if the writers did not apply that level of interpretation by will, it is still applied, because on a subconscious level everyone understands how the psyche works.

I haven't read much on this (other than what is in the lexicanum), but since history is written by the victors most of what we see is going to have a Pro-Lion bias. Unless there is a novel specifically talking about Lion's thoughts and actions durring the HH we must be content to speculate. I like having a bit of the unknown it allows for flexibility when coming up with back story for your army.

*Edit* Side question: Are the Dark Angels the only loyalist chapter to change their colors after the HH?

History is written by the victors doesn't apply because we're not talking about history.

As was mentioned in another thread recently, the readers can look at this from an out-of-universe perspective. The "present time" of the Horus Heresy is forever captured on the pages of the novels. The novels are not "histories" written subsequent to the "actual events." There were no "actual events" outside of the what is written on the page of the novel. And what is written on the page of the novel is that Jonson was not a traitor.

This is really the simplest question of all time.

@Thatedguy, i think that the dark angels may have been the only chapter to change their colours after the heresy.

@manchu they havent actually got to the caliban war yet in the HH series, so we dont really know, and even though he did end up fighting for the imperium, was he playing a long game? was he considering turning? we dont know so we debate, discuss and talk about it. we're not going to get an answer until GW actually say, but in the mean time, we discuss.

it is interesting how people think fallen=chaos marines, but most shown dont actually worship chaos, and are still rather loyal.

The Fallen are not loyal actually. I don't know what you've been reading.

Also, the HH series hasn't gotten to the Siege of Terra yet but I don't see any lame "debates" about Horus changing his mind and tearfully apologizing to daddy.

...and risking to sound like some dumb ignorant fg:

No, this is not the question at all.

The question was not "was the Lion a traitor" but "the unforgiven or the fallen, who are really the loyalists?" And my answer to that is: "sounds to me that the Angels themselves are not so sure about!" At least the Angels of the "Present". Without doubt the Unforgiven want to be recognized as loyalísts by all means. Jonsons loyalty doesn't matter in this point, but what the Inner Circle makes from it. After ten millenia at least it should have been possible for the seed of doubt and mistrust to bloom. But imagine the chaos (in a classic sense) reigning after the Fall: the homeworld scattered, the legion torn in two, shards and splinters everywhere.
Don't you think that many an Angel would have insecurities what is right and what is wrong? Particularly considering that lies and deception are a probate tool of Chaos in order to separate its targets from the herd? For sure at least there will be single Fallen ones totally sure of their own loyalty and that the Lion was the traitor.

Maybe this is not written in the HH novels. But it is inherent in the picture that is painted of the Unforgiven, a picture that is older than the novels you cite. It is a picture from a time I keep as my precious and everything that follows will be bent until it breaks or fits into that continuum.
Go on, opt for the "IT IS WRITTEN, NO MORE MYSTERY" version. believe in the Dark Angels being just another , quite dull chapter, somewhere between Black Templars and Robed Whiners, created by authors slowly killing the last interesting bits of grimdark universe by enlightening every small secret. Or accept the possibility of the "Enshrouded Truth After All That Turmoil", keep the fascinating vagueness of the pre-HH aera by happily fitting the novel facts into the rest of the world so they actually make sense. This is, and has always been, the way of the Fanboy. YOU ARE NO FANBOY! IN YOUR MIND THERE NEVER HAVE BEEN SQUATS UNTIL THEY WERE MENTIONED IN THE 6 ED. RULEBOOK! YOU SIR ARE A BAD MAN!

p.s. for one cannot be sure on the inturweb, there is always someone square enough to feel offended: the last part written in capitals was satirical and not at all meant as an attack, but as a humorous comment.

You are saying that loyalist DA of M41 doubt that they are loyal because they have been faithfully hunting their traitorous brethren for 10,000 years?

I guess I just don't see your point.

 Manchu wrote:
The Fallen are not loyal actually. I don't know what you've been reading.

Also, the HH series hasn't gotten to the Siege of Terra yet but I don't see any lame "debates" about Horus changing his mind and tearfully apologizing to daddy.

That must be as he is dying but how the hell it can happen in a space of mere seconds is debatable as only Empy would see it and execute Horus at the spot, and as long as the Primarches doesn't go down faster than hookers like LL HH I'm sated(of course this is not a cruel joke LL, just plain fun and a twisted admiration as I really adore what that man writes). At least that would be how I would have written it, having Empy executing his favorite son son Horus knowing he would want it exposing throat.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
@Thatedguy, i think that the dark angels may have been the only chapter to change their colours after the heresy.

@manchu they havent actually got to the caliban war yet in the HH series, so we dont really know, and even though he did end up fighting for the imperium, was he playing a long game? was he considering turning? we dont know so we debate, discuss and talk about it. we're not going to get an answer until GW actually say, but in the mean time, we discuss.

We actually have gotten to the cause of the Caliban War. It was in "Fallen Angels".

Luther and the Dark Angels on Caliban were preparing to fight the Imperial presence on the planet, effectively seceding from the Imperium.

it is interesting how people think fallen=chaos marines, but most shown dont actually worship chaos, and are still rather loyal.

There is no "most". The Fallen are individuals, with a few warbands scattered throughout their numbers. Or at least that's how they have been for a long time. The upcoming Codex might change things dramatically or keep the status quo, we do not know yet.

@ Manchu

No I say they believe that the fundaments of their loyalty might be questionable. They hunt their Fallen because it is the right thing to do, but the secrecy they try to maintain about it is because they fear this question might be answered against them if any of the Fallen fall into the hands of e.g. the inquisition.

That doesn't make any sense.

The DA are secretive about the Fallen because they are honor-obsessed space knights. They don't want it getting around that half their Legion rebelled against their Primarch, and so also the Emperor considering that the Lion was indisputably loyal to the Emperor, around the time of the Horus Heresy.

They are not worried about this because they secretly think they themselves are traitors. They don't want their Primarch and their history and their traditions and their identity shamed because of Luther and the traitors who followed him.

Completely agreed Manchu. Plus they have a fanatical hatred of anyone that escaped. They are one of the more fanatical chapters you can come across. And with fanaticism comes secrecy as they can't be really brought to confess anything. They are utter fanatics and believe anyone who knows anything about their secret shame shall be brought to death. That's the average Dark Angel for ya. 100X and you have an average Interrogator Chaplain. I don't need to go further.

...That doesn't make sense. If there is nothing to shame about you don't need to shame.
But the true difference seems to be, you search for action heroes, I search for drama, for character studies. I suppose if we both watch "apocalypse now" we see two different movies.

Every culture has it set of shame Hruot, the Dark Angels is one of secrecy and secret shames. It might not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me at least. But then again understanding isn't always a good thing.

 Hruotland wrote:
...That doesn't make sense. If there is nothing to shame about you don't need to shame.

A father who commits crimes shames his children. It is not because the children are at fault.

 Hruotland wrote:
But the true difference seems to be, you search for action heroes

No, the true difference is that I'm reading the fluff and you're making up your own.

Here's a quick question about the Fallen. They've been loose for some 10,000 years now. Should they have died by now from.... Oh I don't know...... Old age?

Nurgle wanted a piece of the puzzle. The warp is fizzle, which basically means you can be your own grandfather. And other things I don't wanna know.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Should they have died by now from.... Oh I don't know...... Old age?

(1) Warp effects
(2) hiding in the Webway
(3) SM have no expiration date

And that's just off the top of my head.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
Should they have died by now from.... Oh I don't know...... Old age?

(1) Warp effects
(2) hiding in the Webway
(3) SM have no expiration date

And that's just off the top of my head.

The "original" background on the Fallen was that the Chaos Gods scattered them through not only space, but time. Last I saw that had not been changed.

That's much better than anything I came up with after not thinking about it for more than a few seconds.

I agree with Manchu that there seems to be nothing in the fluff to doubt the Dark Angels loyalty. At least not in the train of thought that is followed here. (That they sometimes disobey direct orders and deny assistance to pursue The Fallen could be called another form of disloyalty, though).
But a lot of other questions that were raised here seem to be perfectly valid, at least if we can trust the Lexicanum. (I didn't read the short stories yet).

1) While the confessions from the Fallen do not necessarily mean that their version is the right one, or question the loyalty of the Dark Angels as such, it DOES allow for doubts on Lion's loyalty or true motives.

2) The Fallen definitely are not loyalist (because that would have prohibited any thoughts of secession or staying with Luther after he demonstrated Chaos powers).
But to be disloyal does not necessarily mean to be chaotic. It means to be renegade. See Soul Drinkers, see Relictors, see Crimson Castellans.

All in all, I see grounds for doubts both on Lion El'Jonson's true motives and on the true reasons of why the Dark Angels hunt The Fallen: just shame of their disloyalty, i.e. "the chapter's shame", or also to silence them, else they disclose "the Primarch's shame".

treslibras wrote:
I see grounds for doubts both on Lion El'Jonson's true motives

Can you be specific?

 Manchu wrote:

treslibras wrote:
I see grounds for doubts both on Lion El'Jonson's true motives

Can you be specific?

As I said, I have neither read the The Black Pearl nor Unforgiven stories but they seem to confirm what Astelan told in Angels of Darkness.

From Lexicanum:


The direct reference to Lion El'Jonsons taint & alleged fall to Chaos is in Angels of Darkness. But if you have not read that, I wonder why you are discussing in this thread.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
And while no one outside of the DA may know the absolute truth, I doubt they (being programmed super-soldiers) know it either. My point was the Empire demanded a price for the Dark Angels to exist and serve after the Heresy because of the lack of support at the Siege of Terra. In the age after the HH (where everyone and thing was suspect), they were forced to hunt the Fallen, whether they wanted to (out a sense of honor) or not (survival).

Errm, the Dark Angels Inner Circle are the only ones who know (most of) the truth about the Dark Angels' secret sin in the 41st Millennium Imperium. Well, they, Johnson, Luther and whatever Fallen are still at large. A few scattered individuals here and there may also hold a shard of truth, but if the DA ever find out about such a person, they hunt them down to find out what exactly and how much they know. Previous DA Codices actually had special rules to determine whether someone in the opposing army knew anything and if they did capturing them immediately became a DA objective.
(I hope they bring that back in their new Codex.)

Secondly, the Imperium did not demand anything from the Dark Angels after the Heresy, because it was the impending arrival of the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves that caused Horus to make his final gambit. It didn't matter how quickly the two Legions were going to arrive, they were always going to be too late.

@treslibras: Your argument boils down to "because the Fallen say so ... over and over."

 Manchu wrote:
@treslibras: Your argument boils down to "because the Fallen say so ... over and over."

That might seem so but it would probably be more accurate as "at least 3 different sources of fluff give an alternative reading of what happened on Caliban"

Unless you want to argue that everything that Loyalists say (in fluff) is right and canon, and everything Renegades say is unfluff and a lie. That would indicate you had issues separating ingame morals and meta-plot information.


Since I am not the master of the WH40K universe, I think that someone at GW gave green lights to have these renegades say what they had to say, for a reason. Could be just to confuse us, and a future DA novel will bring out the truth.
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history. It is a contested version now.

Three different sources have the Fallen telling the same whiny story. So what? Luther sold them on that gak before they got scattered through space in time. It doesn't matter how many Fallen echo Luther's lies that the Lion "stole his thunder" -- all that matters is that the guys saying this are all Fallen.

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not.

Fallen Angels shows us Luther jealously corrupting the Fallen and treacherously attacking Jonson upon his return to Caliban. Please tell me how this can be twisted into the Lion betraying the Emperor and the DA covering that up for 10,000 years? We KNOW Luther's motives: he used to be Jonson's superior and teacher and now his pupil exceeded him in all respects. He was jealous and the Ruinous Powers could not help but notice.

 Manchu wrote:

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not..

just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so.

the fact that 3 different sources, even though fallen, say much the same, does raise some doubt on the dark angels. after all, the fallen have been tortured and interrogated for years so they have no reason to lie

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so

Yeah. This is what I've been trying to tell you, "Chaos Emperor." Because your only argument is "what if" -- which is just making up stuff regardless of anything actually published on the subject.

A lie is not true because three different liars tell you it the same way -- and especially not when they came up with the lie together in the first place. Also, what are you talking about with this idea that the Fallen have no reason to lie? Their lie is the only thing they have left.

 Manchu wrote:

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so

Yeah. This is what I've been trying to tell you, "Chaos Emperor." Because your only argument is "what if" -- which is just making up stuff regardless of anything actually published on the subject.

A lie is not true because three different liars tell you it the same way -- and especially not when they came up with the lie together in the first place. Also, what are you talking about with this idea that the Fallen have no reason to lie? Their lie is the only thing they have left.

Or is it that the DA lie is all that they have left?

 Chaos Emperor wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not..

just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so.

the fact that 3 different sources, even though fallen, say much the same, does raise some doubt on the dark angels. after all, the fallen have been tortured and interrogated for years so they have no reason to lie

What you are missing is that the sources were all members of Luther's movement.

Luther was sent back to Caliban, along with a number of veteran members, to raise the next intake of Dark Angels.
Rather than seeing this as an honor and a measure of trust, they saw it as being shunned and as their Primarch abandoning Caliban to the machinations of the nascent Imperium.

I do not see how this "raises some doubt on the Dark Angels". It shows that there was a fundamental issue (the individuals being sent back to Caliban) which led to Luther being able to seize control on Caliban. Especially in light of the events in "Fallen Angels", where Terrans (who I personally theorize were loyal to Erebus and Horus' faction) summoned a monstrosity from the Warp on Caliban. That event led to Luther being able to solidify a large number of the Dark Angels planetside into a Caliban centric movement which then rebelled against both Jonson and the Imperium.

 Manchu wrote:
Three different sources have the Fallen telling the same whiny story. So what? Luther sold them on that gak before they got scattered through space in time. It doesn't matter how many Fallen echo Luther's lies that the Lion "stole his thunder" -- all that matters is that the guys saying this are all Fallen.

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not.

Well that kind of proves my point about not being able to seperate between ingame morals, i.e. "everything that loyalist sources in fluff say must be true, and everything non-loyalist sources in fluff say must be a lie".


My dad told me never to argue with fools. So I am out.

Cheers!

That must have been the only thing he ever said to you then. We aren't just dealing with two different second hand accounts. We get to "see" what happens for ourselves. And what we see does not line up with what the Fallen say.

Luther had a genuine grievance with the Lion, seeing as the latter basically banished all of the Calaban-born Marines to baby-sitting duty after one brief campaign*, and then proceeded to ignore their communicaes for the better part of a century despite them achieving unprecedented success rates in Marine recruitment, implantation and training. Then there's their feelings of being betrayed by the Imperium, which in short order turned their lush forest world into a strip mine and all their populace into slaves (and indeed sacrifices to Chaos). On one hand, they are being scorned by their Primarch; on the other, the same Imperium that recruited the Lion has shown itself to be dangerous and corrupt.

Of course, we aso last left Luther studying daemonic lore, which as we all know never ends well. Much like the vague malcontent feelings (why did the Emperor leave us? why are these remembrancers all up in our grills? why are those pansy bookworms on Terra telling real warriors how to propagate war?) of the Legions were fanned into full-blown rebelion by Erebus and friends, I have no problem believing that Luther fell, and fell hard, regardless of his initial good intentions and valid concerns.



*My personal theory on his rationale for this is their exposure to daemons in said campaign. The Lion was quite familiar with Chaos given where he grew up, and perhaps in his paranoid nature assumed that those born on Calaban may be more succeptive to corruption, or indeed already tainted in some way. With that in mind, keeping them quaranteened on Calaban seems like a valid option. The ensuing cold shoulder treatment is probably just the Lion's Asperger's syndrome coming through. I mean, the guy is basically Sheldon from Big Bang Theory x1000.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Secondly, the Imperium did not demand anything from the Dark Angels after the Heresy, because it was the impending arrival of the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves that caused Horus to make his final gambit. It didn't matter how quickly the two Legions were going to arrive, they were always going to be too late.

Don't forget the Ultramarines, who were also en route, and who coordinated the entire counter-offensive during the Heresy, and the Scouring in the aftermath.

 Manchu wrote:

Also, the HH series hasn't gotten to the Siege of Terra yet but I don't see any lame "debates" about Horus changing his mind and tearfully apologizing to daddy.

Quote FTW!!!

The Lion EITHER

1. Put personal desires above the safety and well being of the Imperium; or,
2. Purposefully delayed going to Terra in order to wait and see where his loyalty should lay.

Regardless of which way you want to look at it he was a traitor.

DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I always preferred the "Angels of Darkness" take on things. I never liked the Lion, I believed Luther all the way.

Having just read that book, I have to agree. Not all of the Fallen can be considered traitors to the IoM and Emperor, especially when there were conflicting reports on the status of the Lion's loyalty getting back to the DA on Caliban. I personally like the idea that although the Lion may not have fallen to Chaos, that he was being pragmatic about the whole Heresy and really was waiting to see who came out on top before deciding who to side with. In that light, the DA on Caliban could justifiably argue that the Lion was not fully in support of the Emperor and that continuing to follow the Lion was in fact heresy. I see that hesitation, that inaction through waiting to see who the clear victor would be in the Lion as the DA's biggest secret aside from the Fallen themselves. It is such an important secret, not just for the honor/purity/etc. of the DA's themselves, but one that if revealed at the time, or perhaps even now, could lead to a further schism in the IoM or even another HH-like fracturing.

I do not know about the Lion, but i see the DA in 40k as traitors, they find it more important to hunt the fallen, instead of saving/helping the Emperor's servants.

With the HH visions, in Primarchs, the lion is depicted as having his watchers by his side, strong enough to actually physically harm other beings. Thus, his guilt and his doubt were strong enough to manifest even at that point. What guilt and doubt?

Perhaps a dip back to 2nd edition may help.
"luther, using his skills at oratory to lead the dark angels under his command to the path of chaos"

HOWEVER, reading from the same source, we also see that "the forces of chaos had been defeated.....And for Jonson one final, shattering betrayal remained to be discovered".

So, from that we can deduce that the fall of luther and thus the destruction of calibran came after the siege of Terra and the death of horus.

Ironic, perhaps from a chapter that's pride is the first.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Wh....... What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Doctadeth wrote:
With the HH visions, in Primarchs, the lion is depicted as having his watchers by his side, strong enough to actually physically harm other beings. Thus, his guilt and his doubt were strong enough to manifest even at that point. What guilt and doubt?

Perhaps a dip back to 2nd edition may help.
"luther, using his skills at oratory to lead the dark angels under his command to the path of chaos"

HOWEVER, reading from the same source, we also see that "the forces of chaos had been defeated.....And for Jonson one final, shattering betrayal remained to be discovered".

So, from that we can deduce that the fall of luther and thus the destruction of calibran came after the siege of Terra and the death of horus.

Ironic, perhaps from a chapter that's pride is the first.

are you saying that the watchers are a sort of manifestation of the lions psyche? A sort of physical imaginary friend?

Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

 Doctadeth wrote:
Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

Source?
Like, please quote it....


Or if thats too much to ask, return to the real fluff.
Because its no secret what the watchers are not. IIRC they are not " guilt and angst "....

clively wrote:The Lion EITHER

1. Put personal desires above the safety and well being of the Imperium; or,
2. Purposefully delayed going to Terra in order to wait and see where his loyalty should lay.

Regardless of which way you want to look at it he was a traitor.

The Horus Heresy short-stories, Savage Weapons and The Lion, as well as AD-B (the author of the former), clarify the Lion as loyal to the Emperor.

DILL3NGER wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Wh...what?

Y........you didnt know? DA's "orientation" is quickly suppressed by DA fans, but it was GW that started it and that makes it canon.

And Luther, who was too old to recieve gene seed and was merely augmented was able to wreck a PRIMARCH. Weak sauce.

Are they Native Americans? Are they knights? Are they green, black, or cookie dough colored? Just a very confused chapter and understandably angry with the Emprah. Lets wish them, and their codex bandwagoneers, a merry millenium.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Said non-astartes human had access to major chaos mojo, on top of being the Lion's surrogate father. But that don't count when we can make childish homo jokes, noooooo

This thread has basically made me love the DA, something I never thought possible.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Doctadeth wrote:
Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

Source?
Like, please quote it....


Or if thats too much to ask, return to the real fluff.
Because its no secret what the watchers are not. IIRC they are not " guilt and angst "....

5th edition DA codex, in Azeraels entry.
And HH primarchs as well hints at it.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Said non-astartes human had access to major chaos mojo, on top of being the Lion's surrogate father. But that don't count when we can make childish homo jokes, noooooo

It was GW's joke, not mine. Dont shoot the messenger!

I think the DA's deffinetly suffer from some major guilt issues. It is like they are trying to compensate by having so many Chaplains. A beard of chaplains if you will. There is no possible way our loyalty could ever waiver, JUST LOOK AT ALL THESE CHAPLAINS!!!! These Big LOYAL Chaplains, doing LOYAL things and punishing those who may not be LOYAL. I just dont think they are secure in their Loyalty to the Emperor.

 Doctadeth wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Source?
Like, please quote it....


Or if thats too much to ask, return to the real fluff.
Because its no secret what the watchers are not. IIRC they are not " guilt and angst "....

5th edition DA codex, in Azraels entry.
And HH primarchs as well hints at it.

Am sorry but I have to insist on the quote...

And I'd like to see a 5th ed DA codex, too.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

I want to play

What if the Emperor, was actually Tzeentch

 Galdos wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

I want to play

What if the Emperor, was actually Tzeentch

The Souldrinkers would like to speak with you

So not wanting to wade through four pages when I already know the answer, which is, Dun de de dun! They both are.

Pretty much the Lion betrayed the Calibanites because he new that the world was very heavily tainted with Chaos, the population was not originally exposed that much however due to the presence of the beasts killing anyone who got too close to the tainted areas. When the beasts were killed the taint was able to spread the general population. Though in the books they blame this upon the introduction of Terrans onto Caliban. Since they had such a very heavy Chaos taint Luthor knew that the world would be ordered exterminatus, so Luthor and the rest of the Calibanite Dark Angels who were with him betrayed their oaths to the Emperor and broke off from the Imperium. During this time however Luthor himself did fall to Chaos with the help of Cypher.

It's all in Fallen Angels.

I thought they rebelled because The Imperium was crapifying their planet.

I thought they Rene,led because they were jealous of the DA on assignment with the Lion and the rest was excuses and Chaos.

 Manchu wrote:
I thought they Rene,led because they were jealous of the DA on assignment with the Lion and the rest was excuses and Chaos.

Yes but also because Caliban was being figuratively destroyed by the Imperium. The Imperium does strip mine worlds, tithe them and destroy local culture.

 Omegus wrote:
Don't forget the Ultramarines, who were also en route, and who coordinated the entire counter-offensive during the Heresy, and the Scouring in the aftermath.

We all know Rowboat Girlyman is the true traitor. He skipped all the major battles, and then took charge during the aftermath and made-up a bunch of rules to further weaken all the other legions.

Sounds a bit like Neutral Evil to me. Wait until the rest of the party is weakened, come in, take over, take the spoils for yourself, split them up and make rules to ensure you stay on top.

Not to mention he trained his men on how to fight the loyalist legions. When asked about it he said because he knew some would resist his rule

Ok wait so....this conversation has done nothing but make me confused hahaha

So....both think they are the loyalists, and the other is the traitor, but we as the 3rd party know things about them they don't so what we get is a really screwed up story with 9000 different interpretations and different fluff paths. Sounds pretty typical hahahaha

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I thought they Rene,led because they were jealous of the DA on assignment with the Lion and the rest was excuses and Chaos.

Yes but also because Caliban was being figuratively destroyed by the Imperium. The Imperium does strip mine worlds, tithe them and destroy local culture.

Not really.

The "turning point" was when a group of Terrans (who seemingly have ties to Horus) enacted a ritual in Caliban that opened up a Warp gate. Luther used that as an excuse to recede from the Imperium.

 Hruotland wrote:

Yes, to the outside. They SEEM to have no doubts. Yet all this only begins to make sense if you postulate the one person/faction they have to persuade of their loyalty to the emperor are they themselves. The loyalists and the fallen have split long ago, and they hunt the Fallen down with all needs. If they were sure of their own and their primarch's loyalty they would not have to make so much hush-hush. They could openly declare "parts of our legion went the wrong path, but see, we do everything to undo them, for we, the rest, are loyal and steadfast as should be". Their enormous efforts to hide everything about it are a big confession there at least MIGHT be something wrong with themselves. The Fallen are a threat to their own loyalty, and not just because they fell. They mirror something of the loyalists what they fear. otherwise they just could declare them outcasts and demand a chance to prove their unshaken loyalty.

Bravo! I applaud you, good sir! This is an exellent analysis of the nature of Dark Angels.

The best thing about 40K fluff is that it allows these sort of nuances; that you can never be quite sure what is a fact and what is a myth, and that it indeed is all matter of perspective. This is a marvellous richness that I would prefer to be cherished instead of to be squished until every fact is boringly set into stone.

And what I remember of Manchu's previous contributions on different subjects, he does not deal well with nuances, he wants absolutes.

So....both think they are the loyalists, and the other is the traitor, but we as the 3rd party know things about them they don't so what we get is a really screwed up story with 9000 different interpretations and different fluff paths.

This seems to sum up why there is really no definitive answer to the OP, I'd say read the novels for yourself and make up your own mind

 Crimson wrote:

 Hruotland wrote:

Yes, to the outside. They SEEM to have no doubts. Yet all this only begins to make sense if you postulate the one person/faction they have to persuade of their loyalty to the emperor are they themselves. The loyalists and the fallen have split long ago, and they hunt the Fallen down with all needs. If they were sure of their own and their primarch's loyalty they would not have to make so much hush-hush. They could openly declare "parts of our legion went the wrong path, but see, we do everything to undo them, for we, the rest, are loyal and steadfast as should be". Their enormous efforts to hide everything about it are a big confession there at least MIGHT be something wrong with themselves. The Fallen are a threat to their own loyalty, and not just because they fell. They mirror something of the loyalists what they fear. otherwise they just could declare them outcasts and demand a chance to prove their unshaken loyalty.

Bravo! I applaud you, good sir! This is an excellent analysis of the nature of Dark Angels.

No. It's not. At one point it might have been, but that point is gone now.

The best thing about 40K fluff is that it allows these sort of nuances; that you can never be quite sure what is a fact and what is a myth, and that it indeed is all matter of perspective. This is a marvellous richness that I would prefer to be cherished instead of to be squished until every fact is boringly set into stone.

And what I remember of Manchu's previous contributions on different subjects, he does not deal well with nuances, he wants absolutes.

Actually, there are "matters of perspective" and "absolutes".

The "absolutes" are that the Fallen are traitors. They broke faith with the Imperium and Luther knows it. There's even hints that he was planning to do it before the whole incident with the Warp Beasts happened.
The Loyalists were not.

The "matters of perspective" come into play when you start looking at the perspective of the various members of the Legion who sided with Luther. Did they all know what they were doing or did they all just blindly follow Luther?

There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

Lion = todays standards of pure evil.

Luther = generically good guy, a swell man, gets turned chaos.

 Crimson wrote:
And what I remember of Manchu's previous contributions on different subjects, he does not deal well with nuances, he wants absolutes.

You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
Lion = todays standards of pure evil.

Luther = generically good guy, a swell man, gets turned chaos.

I know the Lion ain't nice, but pure evil? Wow. That is quite the interpretation. How is he evil? I mean I still fancy my interpretation of him being good, but not nice. And Luther. Well Lionel and Lex Luther comes to mind of Smallville-fame. That's how I have taken on him.

I think "good but not nice" is a great way to describe all the loyalist Primarchs. [EDIT: other than Vulkan, who was I guess good and nice] It's a useful phrase, that.

 Manchu wrote:
I think "good but not nice" is a great way to describe all the loyalist Primarchs. [EDIT: other than Vulkan, who was I guess good and nice] It's a useful phrase, that.

Yeah I sort of get a bit flabbergasted myself when people claim a loyal primarch is evil. That sort of makes no sense for me. The obviously evil and crazy ones went for Chaos. The rest is firmly in our minds at least in good ain't nice-territory.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

Nobody knows. That's kind of the point...

What about this?

Marines fighting Marines is hardly the stuff of HH type treachery. Witness how many of the rogue chapters that fought with Lugft Huron did penance and are in good standing.

 Doctadeth wrote:
Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

The watchers appeared before The fall by a long shot. They themselves also said they have exsisted long before the primarch arrived on caliban.

Of all the Unforgiven and the Fallen, there is only one that I'm not 100% sure of what side he's on, and that's Cypher.

 Manchu wrote:
You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

Thing is, you take the fluff as facts, while some of us see it as propaganda and myths.

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

Thing is, you take the fluff as facts, while some of us see it as propaganda and myths.

Thing is, you do not understand the difference between the different kinds of narratives.

Some pieces of the background are what is referred to as "omniscient narratives". These pieces are definitive absolutes. They are facts of the setting.
Some pieces of the background are published in what can be referred to as "first-person narratives" or "third-person narratives". These are not necessarily facts of the setting, but they can be.
These kinds of bits are what the propaganda and myths of the Imperium/Eldar/whoever.

 Crimson wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You have a poor memory, perhaps. More likely you simply did not understand the posts you are thinking of when you first read them. I do not want absolutes; I want arguments based on published material. Many of the posts ITT belong in the Dakka Fiction section instead of 40k Background. In your homebrew fluff and fanfiction, the Fallen can be loyal to the Imperium while the Unforgiven are the true betrayers of the Emperor. In the published setting, the one that comes from the 4th edition DA dex and the BL novels, it's the other way around.

Thing is, you take the fluff as facts, while some of us see it as propaganda and myths.

Lets see. The sources of the Dark Angels having turned against the light of the Emperor are the Fallen ones. I mean, you basically is walking blindly into Hitler's (who was a very horrible person) statement: "It's easier to fall victim to a big lie than a small one."

And being ruthless like dispatching Black Templars who came in their way doesn't mean Chaos worship. That's being secretive, and they knew they could get away with it with their secret intact. Again good is not nice comes to mind (which seems to reach a Memetic Mutation when I write the quote).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

It doesn't matter if it's old.

Obviously, books about military campaigns are going to focus more on Fallen who are actively anti-throne. Arkos was an Alpha Legionaire who might have known something about The Fallen. There was no proof of that but the DAs just assume that Chaos Marines are always a good lead on The Fallen info which they are.

Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

It doesn't matter if it's old.

Actually KC, it does. A lot of the old fluff gets reprinted just because they need filler. In the case of "Fallen rice farmers" it is old stuff that was valid under the previous bits of fluff, but not entirely validated yet by the way the Horus Heresy is playing out.

In the "old" fluff, there was room for the followers to simply have been duped by Luther. There is no longer that.

Obviously, books about military campaigns are going to focus more on Fallen who are actively anti-throne. Arkos was an Alpha Legionaire who might have known something about The Fallen. There was no proof of that but the DAs just assume that Chaos Marines are always a good lead on The Fallen info which they are.

Actually the Dark Angels assume that Arkos the Faithless is a good lead because of the fact that he had been sighted with a member of The Fallen prior to Vraks.

The Dark Angels don't just pick names out of a hat. The Ravenwing's entire job is to track The Fallen, and not just on the battlefield. For all intents and purposes they are an intelligence network.

Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Heh.

That's not even remotely true.
The Badab War was the result of Loyalists putting "the good of the Imperium and their Brother-Astartes above all".
The Space Wolves nearly coming to blows with the Inquisition over the Second Armageddon War is from them putting "the good of the Imperium and its citizens above all".
All of the various Loyalists have their tipping points. The only difference is that with the Dark Angels their tipping point is based upon an event which took place during one of the most desperate timeframes of the Imperium.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Wow, that's super wrong. Just about all the chapters can be said to be pursuing their own agenda. What makes the DA stand out is that they don't assume their agenda is synonymous with "the good of the Imperium." You can imagine Azrael saying to Calgar, "did you ever stop to think that your little empire is just vanity?" Damn that would be a good story.

What if both of them are good ???

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Wow, that's super wrong. Just about all the chapters can be said to be pursuing their own agenda. What makes the DA stand out is that they don't assume their agenda is synonymous with "the good of the Imperium." You can imagine Azrael saying to Calgar, "did you ever stop to think that your little empire is just vanity?" Damn that would be a good story.

You also have the Iron Hands. They are in my book more servants of AdMech than IOM. They are quite cold-blooded as well, their battle-cry says more than enough.

But i agree the notion you wrote about Azrael stating that to Calgar would be fun, especially with the many colors I imagine Calgar's face would take.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

It doesn't matter if it's old.

Actually KC, it does. A lot of the old fluff gets reprinted just because they need filler. In the case of "Fallen rice farmers" it is old stuff that was valid under the previous bits of fluff, but not entirely validated yet by the way the Horus Heresy is playing out.

In the "old" fluff, there was room for the followers to simply have been duped by Luther. There is no longer that.

Obviously, books about military campaigns are going to focus more on Fallen who are actively anti-throne. Arkos was an Alpha Legionaire who might have known something about The Fallen. There was no proof of that but the DAs just assume that Chaos Marines are always a good lead on The Fallen info which they are.

Actually the Dark Angels assume that Arkos the Faithless is a good lead because of the fact that he had been sighted with a member of The Fallen prior to Vraks.

The Dark Angels don't just pick names out of a hat. The Ravenwing's entire job is to track The Fallen, and not just on the battlefield. For all intents and purposes they are an intelligence network.

Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Heh.

That's not even remotely true.
The Badab War was the result of Loyalists putting "the good of the Imperium and their Brother-Astartes above all".
The Space Wolves nearly coming to blows with the Inquisition over the Second Armageddon War is from them putting "the good of the Imperium and its citizens above all".
All of the various Loyalists have their tipping points. The only difference is that with the Dark Angels their tipping point is based upon an event which took place during one of the most desperate timeframes of the Imperium.

We've talked about this before. Fluff doesn't have and expiry date. It's canon until retconned.

As for your Badab War and Space Wolves comments you seem to be agreeing with me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Wow, that's super wrong. Just about all the chapters can be said to be pursuing their own agenda. What makes the DA stand out is that they don't assume their agenda is synonymous with "the good of the Imperium." You can imagine Azrael saying to Calgar, "did you ever stop to think that your little empire is just vanity?" Damn that would be a good story.

Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

The Dark Angels agenda is "protect our secret." Note how they're the only ones with a secret agenda.

@Kanluwen SW clash with the "I" was in the first war for armageddon...

Also is there a book where fallen are portrayed as true chaos marines?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

Whatever that means. The point is: That's certainly what they believe. Of course opinions will vary on what's best for The Imperium but they are carry out their duties in good faith. The same can't be said of The Unforgiven.

It's very clear what that means. Chapters like the Black Templars are delusional. They're on their little vengeance quest and they dress it up as "for the Emperor!" The UM tend their little garden of Ultramar and it's all "for the Emperor!" The Space Wolves do whatever they want "for the Emperor!" The DA do what they do "for the Emperor" as much as any other chapter pursues its own agenda "for the Emperor." Blotting out the stain on their honor, their Primarch's honor, and ultimately the honor of the Emperor himself is certainly not treacherous. Space Marines come to blows with their brother chapters over far, far less.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

Whatever that means. The point is: That's certainly what they believe. Of course opinions will vary on what's best for The Imperium but they are carry out their duties in good faith. The same can't be said of The Unforgiven.

The Unforgiven believes they must first be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor. Sorry that's for me is a direct statement that they have the IOM best interest at heart, but they are so ruthless in their pursuit that they might even eliminate friendlies. Like a certain incident proved with the Black Templars.

 Manchu wrote:
It's very clear what that means. Chapters like the Black Templars are delusional. They're on their little vengeance quest and they dress it up as "for the Emperor!" The UM tend their little garden of Ultramar and it's all "for the Emperor!" The Space Wolves do whatever they want "for the Emperor!" The DA do what they do "for the Emperor" as much as any other chapter pursues its own agenda "for the Emperor." Blotting out the stain on their honor, their Primarch's honor, and ultimately the honor of the Emperor himself is certainly not treacherous. Space Marines come to blows with their brother chapters over far, far less.

Do you even believe what you arguing? Because you're starting to sound like Melissia. Are you honestly saying the Ultramarines and Space Wolves don't really care about wellbeing of The Imperium and its citizens?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

Whatever that means. The point is: That's certainly what they believe. Of course opinions will vary on what's best for The Imperium but they are carry out their duties in good faith. The same can't be said of The Unforgiven.

The Unforgiven believes they must first be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor. Sorry that's for me is a direct statement that they have the IOM best interest at heart, but they are so ruthless in their pursuit that they might even eliminate friendlies. Like a certain incident proved with the Black Templars.

No The Black Templars believe they must be redeemed. The Dark Angels just want to protect their secret. The secret comes first. Before everything and anything. Even the lives of their own Brother-Marines.

No, I'm saying that you have a very uncomplicated view of loyalty which doesn't fit at all with the GrimDark.

Astartes are forever getting into trouble fighting other Imperial institution including other chapters. They all justify it with their loyalty to this, that, or the other concept of the Emperor and the Imperium.

You know this. It's obvious. The example of the SW telling the Inq. to feth off has already been brought up. You're saying the DA are an exception while everyone else gets a pass.

What's more important to Marneus Calgar: the fall of Armegeddon or the fall of some world in Ultramar? For the Emperor indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The secret comes first. Before everything and anything.

Oh for heaven's sake, pause for two seconds and ask yourself why that is the case. The secret is important because it's the very hinge of their loyalty. They are tracking down these traitors BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES ARE LOYAL. If they were also traitors or didn't care about the Impeirum then they would live and let live. "The Fallen? Who cares, we're all Fallen."

 Manchu wrote:
No, I'm saying that you have a very uncomplicated view of loyalty which doesn't fit at all with the GrimDark.

Astartes are forever getting into trouble fighting other Imperial institution including other chapters. They all justify it with their loyalty to this, that, or the other concept of the Emperor and the Imperium.

You know this. It's obvious. The example of the SW telling the Inq. to feth off has already been brought up. You're saying the DA are an exception while everyone else gets a pass.

What's more important to Marneus Calgar: the fall of Armegeddon or the fall of some world in Ultramar? For the Emperor indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The secret comes first. Before everything and anything.

Oh for heaven's sake, pause for two seconds and ask yourself why that is the case. The secret is important because it's the very hinge of their loyalty. They are tracking down these traitors BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES ARE LOYAL. If they were also traitors or didn't care about the Impeirum then they would live and let live. "The Fallen? Who cares, we're all Fallen."

Ya, I guess it is pretty simple. The other Chapters fight for The Emperor while the Dark Angels fight for their reputation.

Yeah, the SW would gladly go to war with the Inquisition "for the Emperor." You're on to something. Or maybe just on something.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, the SW would gladly go to war with the Inquisition "for the Emperor." You're on to something. Or maybe just on something.

Yes, once again you bring up The Inquisition as if it were synonymous with Imperium or Humanity. A good example of an organization with more individuals working on their own personal agenda than the Dark Angels is The Inquisition.

You say I have a simplistic view of loyalty? Your only criteria seems to be whether or not a group has been at odds with The Inquisition.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
A good example of an organization with more individuals working on their own personal agenda than the Dark Angels is The Inquisition.

And yet it is the ultimate authority in the Imperium because its authority is sanctioned by the Emperor himself. So the very word of the Emperor is not enough to bring the SW to heel because they are so ... loyal? Or perhaps loyalty is more complicated than all the departments in the office getting along? Yes, I think that's the answer.

All Astartes fight primary for the Emperor, all in their own way.

Templars are on never ending Crusade to prove their loyalty and to keep the Great Crusade alive ( minus the Imperial Truth ).

Wolves are also on a mission to help whatever Imperial military force in need of assistance, like the Raven Guard.

Ultramarines are protecting the Imperium by providing 60% of all Space Marine chapters while maintaining their own little empire to protect the Imperium's back.

Dark Angels are something else, they are providing assistance to every Imperial Organization but they put Fallen as priority because if any Fallen is to ever spoke to some Imperial officials their chapter would be tainted forever and in worst case maybe even declared traitors and purged. That is why their secret is so important to them, to keep their purity and also to prove their loyalty by capturing all fallen and make them repent for their crimes before the news about their betrayal leaks.
The only problem with this is the fact that they are living sometimes very important battles ( 13'th Black Crusade ) to investigate any rumors about fallen.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
A good example of an organization with more individuals working on their own personal agenda than the Dark Angels is The Inquisition.

And yet it is the ultimate authority in the Imperium because its authority is sanctioned by the Emperor himself. So the very word of the Emperor is not enough to bring the SW to heel because they are so ... loyal? Or perhaps loyalty is more complicated than all the departments in the office getting along? Yes, I think that's the answer.

Really Manchu? So 100% of Inquisitors are 100% loyal to The Emperor?

I always wondered why everything worked so smoothly amongst them all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
All Astartes fight primary for the Emperor, all in their own way.

Templars are on never ending Crusade to prove their loyalty and to keep the Great Crusade alive ( minus the Imperial Truth ).

Wolves are also on a mission to help whatever Imperial military force in need of assistance, like the Raven Guard.

Ultramarines are protecting the Imperium by providing 60% of all Space Marine chapters while maintaining their own little empire to protect the Imperium's back.

Dark Angels are something else, they are providing assistance to every Imperial Organization but they put Fallen as priority because if any Fallen is to ever spoke to some Imperial officials their chapter would be tainted forever and in worst case maybe even declared traitors and purged. That is why their secret is so important to them, to keep their purity and also to prove their loyalty by capturing all fallen and make them repent for their crimes before the news about their betrayal leaks.
The only problem with this is the fact that they are living sometimes very important battles ( 13'th Black Crusade ) to investigate any rumors about fallen.

Correct. Except other Chapters have had traitors fall to Chaos and not been purged. Entire chapters have found themselves on the wrong side of The Imperium like in the Badab war and been brought back into the fold. The Space Wolves even ticked of The Inquistion.
They do what they do not out of a justifiable fear of The Imperium but because they are ashamed.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Really Manchu? So 100% of Inquisitors are 100% loyal to The Emperor?

Your response has literally nothing to do with what I wrote and you quoted.

You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

I'm telling you that many, many chapters come to blows with other Imperial institutions, including the Inquisition (who explicitly operate on the Emperor's own authority) and other Marines, for all kinds of reasons and usually with some rationalization about honor and loyalty to back it up.

And yet somehow you still manage to think the DA are unique in coming into conflict with other loyal Imperial forces.

I'm sorry KC, I cannot help you to understand the obvious any better than I already have.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Really Manchu? So 100% of Inquisitors are 100% loyal to The Emperor?

Your response has literally nothing to do with what I wrote and you quoted.

You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

I'm telling you that many, many chapters come to blows with other Imperial institutions, including the Inquisition (who explicitly operate on the Emperor's own authority) and other Marines, for all kinds of reasons and usually with some rationalization about honor and loyalty to back it up.

When did I say that? Lately you take other people's points and argue them against me.

 Manchu wrote:
You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
When did I say that?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels just want to protect their secret. The secret comes first. Before everything and anything. Even the lives of their own Brother-Marines.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor". The Dark Angels agenda is "protect our secret."

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Lately you take other people's points and argue them against me.

At least one of us reads your posts.

How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

Which ways? The loyalists are loyal, but in their way. The Ultras is the exemplar chapter but loyal mostly to themselves. The Dark Angels behaves likes some wrestler obsessed to wipe clean a secret shame. The Iron Hands are more loyal to AdMech than IOM. The Raven Guard used forbidden technology during the Horus Heresy which are biting them in their ass now. The Space Wolves are hated by the inquisition. The Imperial Fists are the nicest Space Marines, but their stone-faced exterior means no-one would write about them. The Salamanders are frequently confused with Mauraders of Starcraft II. The White Scars are only interesting for the 100 Mongol players of the game. The Blood Angels is obsessed about the demise of their primarch in a very unhealthy manner.

Everyone has traits and weaknesses which appeal to different sort of people. But I won't call them traitors.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

Which ways? The loyalists are loyal, but in their way. The Ultras is the exemplar chapter but loyal mostly to themselves. The Dark Angels behaves likes some wrestler obsessed to wipe clean a secret shame. The Iron Hands are more loyal to AdMech than IOM. The Raven Guard used forbidden technology during the Horus Heresy which are biting them in their ass now. The Space Wolves are hated by the inquisition. The Imperial Fists are the nicest Space Marines, but their stone-faced exterior means no-one would write about them. The Salamanders are frequently confused with Mauraders of Starcraft II. The White Scars are only interesting for the 100 Mongol players of the game. The Blood Angels is obsessed about the demise of their primarch in a very unhealthy manner.

Everyone has traits and weaknesses which appeal to different sort of people. But I won't call them traitors.

It was more of a joke post, but as a Guard player, most Marines are traitors or at least heretics for the same reason mutants are - they have impure geanseed in many cases.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

Which ways? The loyalists are loyal, but in their way. The Ultras is the exemplar chapter but loyal mostly to themselves. The Dark Angels behaves likes some wrestler obsessed to wipe clean a secret shame. The Iron Hands are more loyal to AdMech than IOM. The Raven Guard used forbidden technology during the Horus Heresy which are biting them in their ass now. The Space Wolves are hated by the inquisition. The Imperial Fists are the nicest Space Marines, but their stone-faced exterior means no-one would write about them. The Salamanders are frequently confused with Mauraders of Starcraft II. The White Scars are only interesting for the 100 Mongol players of the game. The Blood Angels is obsessed about the demise of their primarch in a very unhealthy manner.

Everyone has traits and weaknesses which appeal to different sort of people. But I won't call them traitors.

It was more of a joke post, but as a Guard player, most Marines are traitors or at least heretics for the same reason mutants are - they have impure geanseed in many cases.

I love the guard myself. I basically thinks the IOM without the Imperial Guard would simply just rapidly collapse. Without the Space Marines. Confederacy anno 1864. Ineffective, but still able to defend itself. Thousands of guardsmen go into the trenches for every Space Marine. They are just overlooked.

 Manchu wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
When did I say that?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels just want to protect their secret. The secret comes first. Before everything and anything. Even the lives of their own Brother-Marines.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor". The Dark Angels agenda is "protect our secret."

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Lately you take other people's points and argue them against me.

At least one of us reads your posts.

Ah, I see the confusion. I'm not talking about other chapters. I'm talking about within the Dark Angels themselves. The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

 Byte wrote:
This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

How does it have that? Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

How does it have that? Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

The elitist opinions and "view down the nose" approach of points are just hard on the palate. I guess I'm just to grounded.

 Byte wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

How does it have that? Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

The elitist opinions and "view down the nose" approach of points are just hard on the palate. I guess I'm just to grounded.

To a certain point I agree, but the people going up against fluff here go up with the backing of basically blatant liars who are trying to justify their conduct. But some thinks could be handled more politely like Manchu's quarrels, even though I agree with his points. And the guys he has argued with haven't been a hair better.

Still my point is standing, the people telling me that they think the Dark Angels betrayed Empy is basically loons for me, it's the same with the viewpoint some have about Lion being purely evil, while I think of him as good is not nice. Their sources are Fallen Angels and no-one have bothered answering that accusation. And they are not reliable as witnesses, and taking another viewpoint than what's etched in stone in this case is dangerous and belongs to Dakka Fiction, not Background.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

Yep them's the facts. Any thing else is fanfiction. The Unforgiven can make for great tragic characters ... but they're still traitors. I encounter the same issue with people talking about the Thousand Sons. Magnus was NOT loyal. But people will say again and again and again it wasn't his fault, he just wanted to be loyal, he didn't have it coming. None of that fits with anything published, however. The fact is that Magnus chose sorcery over his father. Yes, he's sympathetic and fascinating but he's still a traitor. The Lion and the DA have the exact opposite problem. They are loyalists who simply aren't easy to sympathize with. As Beaviz wisely pointed out, they're good but not nice. That's how good is in 40k: NOT nice, not sympathetic, not really recognizably good according to IRL standards. But just because they are so unlikable, whereas maybe someone like Magnus is very likable (he's one of my very favorite characters), they're still loyal and from the Imperial perspective they are still the "good guys."

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.

I don't know what Iron Hands incident you are speaking of but it's still not the same. I admit Chapters disagree all the time even violently but the the DAs turn on their own. They mind wipe and "disappear" their Brothers. No one acts like this. That's when I lost respect for them. It's like that scene in A Few Good men about Loyalty. Unit-Corps-God-County.

Some chapters are: Emperor- Chapter-Imperium- Humanity
Some are: Chapter-Emperor- Humanity-Imperium
etc.

The Dark Angels are: The Secret-The Secret-The Secret-Emperor.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.

I don't know what Iron Hands incident you are speaking of but it's still not the same. I admit Chapters disagree all the time even violently but the the DAs turn on their own. They mind wipe and "disappear" their Brothers. No one acts like this. That's when I lost respect for them. It's like that scene in A Few Good men about Loyalty. Unit-Corps-God-County.

Some chapters are: Emperor- Chapter-Imperium- Humanity
Some are: Chapter-Emperor- Humanity-Imperium
etc.

The Dark Angels are: The Secret-The Secret-The Secret-Emperor.

He's talking about a great schism addressing whether or not the Emperor was really the Omnissiah. The schism affected the Iron Hands and they ended up splitting, while the Mechanicus (who also suffered) just kind of agreed to sweep it under the rug.

...if I am not mistaken.

The Blood Ravens make the Dark Angels look like saints, just pointing that out.

I got into the hobby through Dawn of War and what I know of Blood Ravens fluff compared to Dark Angels fluff has me easily believing that the Blood Ravens are far worse than Dark Angels.

The Dark Angels and the Unforgiven are simply seeking out traitors to clear their name and honor, only reason they're so secretive is their own shame and dishonor due to the fact the Fallen exist.

The Blood Ravens are 'relic hunters'. They actively search for anything related to their chapter.

In Dark Crusade, they went to war on Kronus because of rumored Blood Ravens relics, they demanded that the IG left, but the IG refused due to their own orders from Segmentum Command. According to Dawn of War II, the Blood Raven's victory ending is cannon, so that means they slaughtered an entire regiment of IG, even those who sided with them, all because they were obssessed with their relics.

In Soulstorm, they went to work for the sake of finding their relics again. This time, not with just a single planet, like Kronus, but the entire Kaurava System. They sent FIVE companies, that's half of the bloody chapter. Only difference between Davian Thule's compaign and Indrick Boreale's campaign is that Indrick's caused the lost of those five companies.

The Dawn of War II Trilogy has members of the remaining chapter falling to chaos, including the chapter master. Let's add in the fact that not only do they collect relics from their chapter, they also take wargear and relics belonging to other chapters, other imperial forces and even the forces of chaos.

So while the Dark Angels have their secrets, it's nothing compared to the Blood Ravens. The only reason they haven't been disbanded, from what I've been told, is because they have friends within the Inquisition.

The IH was riven by the Moirae Schism. During the Nova Terra Interregnum, a group of Mechanicus adepts noted fluctuations in the Astronomican which they interpreted as prophetic message of the Omnissiah -- including the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus. A massive civil war followed. Some of the IH Marines believed the prophecy and the chapter nearly tore itself apart. But the IH command structure is non-Codex; they are ruled by the Great Clan Council. The schismatics were therefore exiled. Now, keep in mind the IH philosophy of cutting away weakness. Basically, the schismatics were cast out for moral weakness. This is pretty much the deepest insult imaginable in their value system.

It all comes down to value systems. The IH cast out the schismatics not because they value their own purity instead of some facile notion of greater nobility, a.k.a. the "brotherhood of Marines," but precisely because their brotherhood only has meaning when viewed through the lens of strict Mechanicus orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, purity -- these are the conditions of brotherhood. It's the same with the DA. The secret is not important on its own, but only through the lens of their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and their Primarch. Preserving this honor is their most central value, the value by which all other values are measured. The life or death of individual Marines is nothing compared to that. It's the same for all Marines: why do they fight and die to protect the rest of the Imperium, which is pretty despicable and pathetic compared to themselves? The IH especially: why sacrifice their own lives of cultivating strength for the sake of the weak?

The reason is: it is a matter of honor. And this is also why the IH ruthlessly punish the weak even after the battle is done. And why the DA stridently keep their secret, regardless of even the internal collateral damage. A brother who does not die but is dishonored should rather be dead. And if he'd rather survive dishonored -- then he is by definition a traitor. That is the definition of the Fallen. The DA creed is that honor is more important than life and they force the Fallen to accept that via Interrogator Chaplains.

 Manchu wrote:
The IH was riven by the Moirae Schism. During the Nova Terra Interregnum, a group of Mechanicus adepts noted fluctuations in the Astronomican which they interpreted as prophetic message of the Omnissiah -- including the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus. A massive civil war followed. Some of the IH Marines believed the prophecy and the chapter nearly tore itself apart. But the IH command structure is non-Codex; they are ruled by the Great Clan Council. The schismatics were therefore exiled. Now, keep in mind the IH philosophy of cutting away weakness. Basically, the schismatics were cast out for moral weakness. This is pretty much the deepest insult imaginable in their value system.

It all comes down to value systems. The IH cast out the schismatics not because of they value their own purity instead of some facile notion of greater nobility, a.k.a. the "brotherhood of Marines," but precisely because their brotherhood only has meaning when viewed through the lens of strict Mechanicus orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, purity -- these are the conditions of brotherhood. It's the same with the DA. The secret is not important on its own, but only through the lens of their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and their Primarch. Preserving this honor is their most central value, the value by which all other values are measured. The life or death of individual Marines is nothing compared to that. It's the same for all Marines: why do they fight and die to protect the rest of the Imperium, which is pretty despicable and pathetic compared to themselves? The IH especially: why sacrifice their own lives of cultivating strength for the sake of the weak?

The reason is: it is a matter of honor. And this is also why the IH ruthlessly punish the weak even after the battle is done. And why the DA stridently keep their secret, regardless of even the internal collateral damage. A brother who does not die but is dishonored should rather be dead. And if he'd rather survive dishonored -- then he is by definition a traitor. That is the definition of the Fallen. The DA creed is that honor is more important than life and the force the Fallen to accept that.

Thanks - I guess I got it wrong off the cuff. But the example stands!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Thanks - I guess I got it wrong off the cuff.

Not totally. The central issue was probably the idea that Mars would fall to the Ecclesiarchy because the Adeptus Mechanicus does not purge those of their number who believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah. But the Martian fleets and armies did thoroughly wipe out the Moirae schismatics. Moirae itself was utterly destroyed. The last vestige of that schism is the chapter that became known as the Sons of Medusa. Why does Mars tolerate them? Because of their ancient treaties with Terra and Terra vetted the Sons of Medusa.

 Manchu wrote:
The IH was riven by the Moirae Schism. During the Nova Terra Interregnum, a group of Mechanicus adepts noted fluctuations in the Astronomican which they interpreted as prophetic message of the Omnissiah -- including the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus. A massive civil war followed. Some of the IH Marines believed the prophecy and the chapter nearly tore itself apart. But the IH command structure is non-Codex; they are ruled by the Great Clan Council. The schismatics were therefore exiled. Now, keep in mind the IH philosophy of cutting away weakness. Basically, the schismatics were cast out for moral weakness. This is pretty much the deepest insult imaginable in their value system.

It all comes down to value systems. The IH cast out the schismatics not because they value their own purity instead of some facile notion of greater nobility, a.k.a. the "brotherhood of Marines," but precisely because their brotherhood only has meaning when viewed through the lens of strict Mechanicus orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, purity -- these are the conditions of brotherhood. It's the same with the DA. The secret is not important on its own, but only through the lens of their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and their Primarch. Preserving this honor is their most central value, the value by which all other values are measured. The life or death of individual Marines is nothing compared to that. It's the same for all Marines: why do they fight and die to protect the rest of the Imperium, which is pretty despicable and pathetic compared to themselves? The IH especially: why sacrifice their own lives of cultivating strength for the sake of the weak?

The reason is: it is a matter of honor. And this is also why the IH ruthlessly punish the weak even after the battle is done. And why the DA stridently keep their secret, regardless of even the internal collateral damage. A brother who does not die but is dishonored should rather be dead. And if he'd rather survive dishonored -- then he is by definition a traitor. That is the definition of the Fallen. The DA creed is that honor is more important than life and they force the Fallen to accept that via Interrogator Chaplains.

That's fascinating and all but the point remains about the loyalty tree.

You have slightly changed the tone of the DAs from what they are and even what you've said before. At many Chapters core is duty, fanaticism or martial prowess. Your trying to make the Dark Angels theme vengeance and honour. But you know their central theme in secret shame. They will commit any completely honourless act to protect it.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
That's fascinating and all but

Okay, number one, if you want to be treated with respect don't act like this.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Your trying to make the Dark Angels theme vengeance and honour. But you know their central theme in secret shame. They will commit any completely honourless act to protect it.

Number two, if the DA were not obsessed with honor they would feel no shame. What are they ashamed of? That's right, dishonor.

For God's same man I'm not being sarcastic. It is fascinating, I find the Iron Hands fascinating and wouldn't mind having a whole other thread on this Moriae Schism but if we get into that here we'lll get majorally sidetracked.

Yes, the have a type of honour but it is not The Chivarous or Bushido style honour. It's the Pakistani Honour Killing type of honour. They are the types to murder their own to protect their rep.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I find the Iron Hands fascinating and wouldn't mind having a whole other thread on this Moriae Schism

You were there.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, the have a type of honour but it is not The Chivarous or Bushido style honour. It's the Pakistani Honour Killing type of honour. They are the types to murder their own to protect their rep.

What is the difference between the concept of honor that motivates ritual suicide and the kind of honor that motivates murder of family? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question, although I think it certainly should be one.

I was thinking more of the code of combat than the suicide thing. Actually I'm probably thinking of Klingons....

Anyway, what I'm saying is 99% of chapters wake up in the morning and think "how am I going to serve The Imperium today."

The Dark Angels wake up and think "how am I going to hunt The Fallen today".

Most Chapters are purposefully trying to win Imperial Battles. Imperial victories from Dark Angels actions are incidental to their true mission. They have "collateral victories"

That's overstating it. The DA go about the usual business of being Space Marines until they catch the scent of the Fallen.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I was thinking more of the code of combat than the suicide thing. Actually I'm probably thinking of Klingons....

Anyway, what I'm saying is 99% of chapters wake up in the morning and think "how am I going to serve The Imperium today."

The Dark Angels wake up and think "how am I going to hunt The Fallen today".

Most Chapters are purposefully trying to win Imperial Battles. Imperial victories from Dark Angels actions are incidental to their true mission. They have "collateral victories"

That's the Ravenwing line of thought. The regular Dark Angel is like a regular Space Marine, only even more secretive. Most in fact doesn't even know about the Fallen. That comes with age and position.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I was thinking more of the code of combat than the suicide thing. Actually I'm probably thinking of Klingons....

Anyway, what I'm saying is 99% of chapters wake up in the morning and think "how am I going to serve The Imperium today."

The Dark Angels wake up and think "how am I going to hunt The Fallen today".

Most Chapters are purposefully trying to win Imperial Battles. Imperial victories from Dark Angels actions are incidental to their true mission. They have "collateral victories"

That's the Ravenwing line of thought. The regular Dark Angel is like a regular Space Marine, only even more secretive. Most in fact doesn't even know about the Fallen. That comes with age and position.

Am I being unfair to all Dark Angels? Yes. The majority of line Infantry don't know anything. Only the Inner Circle secretly moves 9 chapters around to pursue their secret agenda. Most of the Dark Angels just think they are smiting foes of The Emperor for the sake of smiting. Y'know acting like Space Marines.

Manchu,

I'm neither labeling anyone as a traitor nor exhonerating them, but I do have some questions for you and would appreciate it if you would share your perspective and perhaps clarify something for me.



Thanks!

Good questions -- and I think the answers lay in the questions themselves. In fact, they have the same answer.

In every Chapter, there is some knowledge which is only shared among the most trustworthy brothers. This is because knowledge is dangerous in 40k, even for Space Marines. In some cases, it is especially dangerous for Space Marines considering how much damage they do when they turn traitor. This "rule of the setting" certainly applies to the particular secret that the DA keep.

A large part of Space Marine psychology is built around a pseudo-mythological understanding of the galaxy. The enemies that strike from the Immaterium are not "Warp Xenos." No, they are daemons. For a Marine, honor is not just a matter of duty but also of faith. They aren't soldiers; they are warrior-monks. All of this is essential to SM morale. The life of a Space Marine is brutally difficult. For a normal person, it would be a terrible torture. These ideals of faith keep him going.

At the center of Space Marine morale is the Emperor himself, to whom they are connected via their Chapter History -- especially veneration of the Primarch (when they know who their Primarch is). In this way, the memory of the Horus Heresy -- the knowledge that some remained steadfast in their faith and overcame the darkness of treachery -- is very, very important to their discipline. Chapters that do not know their history are especially vulnerable to temptation for this reason. Think of the Blood Ravens.

The existence of the Fallen strikes at the heart of this principle. The doubt sewn by their lies is inimical to the psychology necessary to maintain loyalty against the challenges and strains of the life of a Space Marine. Only the most ruthlessly loyal Marines, the ones with the greatest will to serve the Emperor and honor the Primarch, can resist the temptation to explore that doubt to its bitter end. What if all of this is for nothing? What if it means nothing? Falling into that pit of despair means falling to Chaos.

So even those who successfully become Astartes, although they have endured many physical and mental trials to do so, may not have the moral fortitude to engage with such a secret. The foundation upon which they passed all those trials, after all, could be cracked by knowledge of that secret. Even hardened Interrogator Chaplains, as you point out, sense the doubt within themselves when they hear a man who should be their brother utter such a blasphemous insult to their deepest values.

Enlightenment!

Manchu,

Thank you for your in depth explanation as it clarifies a few questions that were rattling around inside my head.

To finalize - there is no way that this particular fallen (Astelan) could be honest about both his desire to support the emperor by continuing the "dream" of manifest destiny for mankind in the stars, and his claim that he didn't desire revenge even though he felt he had been betrayed first by the Lion?

Given any perceived contradiction between loyalty to the Emperor and loyalty to one's Primarch, there are only three possible explanations: (1) the Emperor is a traitor; (2) the Primarch is a traitor; or (3) the one with contradicting loyalties is a traitor.

The Fallen are so sad because they are so proud. For all the reasons I said above, faith is the cornerstone of Space Marie psychology. This applies even to the Fallen. They must explain their treachery somehow and since they dare not blame the Emperor, they blame the Lion. Pure denial. It is really a tragic state. The Interrogator Chaplains bring them to a vengeful salvation via torture, guiding them to the final realization that it is truly they themselves rather than the beloved Primarch who betrayed the Imperium.

It's beautiful in a sick way. But that's 40k for you.

What of the Fallen that just found himself on the wrong side of a war and doesn't blame anyone? Is it really worth so much effort to hunt him across the galaxy and torture him to death?

It's a matter of blind unrepenting honor, nothing else.

Remember there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It's a matter of blind unrepenting honor, nothing else.

Remember there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

Of course, but that includes the accuser.

Then you must see that the Fallen, worshiping chaos or not must be brought to justice. That's the only way for the Unforgiven to become forgiven. This is a clear case of what it says on the tin.

Manchu,

Thanks again!

I've been clawing my way halfhazardly through both the 40k and HH books. Having read only about 25 of the novels, I realize I have some fairly glaring gaps in my "knowledge". I feel I may have been a little lost myself and was seeing grey even when it appears there's no room for it; the 40k world is more black and white. And the possibility that some authors possess the ability to "humanize" the devil may be where my view has been skewed, lol!

And that's why another perspective helps. Thanks!

Cheers, Starscream. I love a good fluff question. It's true that 40k is really black and white but they dress it up as grey to make you doubt and rethink everything. I don't mind. Gives me something to discuss.

More "grey and black" I'd say.

Yeah, not black and white in terms of evil and good. More like, the issues are clear. Whether or not it's "good" to wipe out a planet, it can be necessary. That kind of clarity is more elusive IRL.

Yes, thankfully it's not so clear irl if blowing up a planet is a good idea. I think sometimes it's not so clear in 40K either.

Usually blowing up a planet is not something done lightly. I mean the IOM have only about 1 million worlds. So if they carelessly wastes their worlds, they will soon end up with only Earth.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Usually blowing up a planet is not something done lightly. I mean the IOM have only about 1 million worlds. So if they carelessly wastes their worlds, they will soon end up with only Earth.

Until they blow her too...

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

Yep them's the facts. Any thing else is fanfiction. The Unforgiven can make for great tragic characters ... but they're still traitors. I encounter the same issue with people talking about the Thousand Sons. Magnus was NOT loyal. But people will say again and again and again it wasn't his fault, he just wanted to be loyal, he didn't have it coming. None of that fits with anything published, however. The fact is that Magnus chose sorcery over his father. Yes, he's sympathetic and fascinating but he's still a traitor. The Lion and the DA have the exact opposite problem. They are loyalists who simply aren't easy to sympathize with. As Beaviz wisely pointed out, they're good but not nice. That's how good is in 40k: NOT nice, not sympathetic, not really recognizably good according to IRL standards. But just because they are so unlikable, whereas maybe someone like Magnus is very likable (he's one of my very favorite characters), they're still loyal and from the Imperial perspective they are still the "good guys."

We ex-staffers know the truth - i was told after my interview in Bath (uk) when i was offered a place in GW - but i cant tell you cos you dont have the tattoo of the (pre sundering - pre-broken - spear/sword hybrid)deathwing on your right upper arm (many inner circle staff from the mid 90 to 00s do - seriously - ask around...)

i can only say Manchu isnt on the right track... sorry bud

my fav army is my black n red (with some newer vvv dark green) darkangels - played along side my black with white hand printed/painted deathwing - from the deathwing/genestealer comic & original 1990s short novel (the originals - every time) - and i say spear/sword hybrid - we believe it was a spear at one point in the da progression of its background history and became the sword of monks n monestery lore later - check out the vintage art image in this months white dwarf - a tactical sgt is ramming his honour spear into the ground - showing he WILL NOT retreat beyond this point (NA Indian practice in combat). and another interesting bit - deathwing = historical and current NA Indian word/name.


--- i will add a bit more - every newbie marine scout who has joined n moved up the ranks since the fall is a good guy thru n thru - but those vets and inner circle guys - tut tut tut... they know what they did, and who they did it to, and what those wronged guys in black did in response, and what they then did to those guys, and why those guys then called out for help n did a runner.... - those old inner guys need to find the ones who know all these truths, and remove them from play. very 'wounded knee' in its setting..... the truth is whatever the victors say it is eh........

Because every staffer from the 90s was told the direction the game's background would go...

Sorry man, but what you were told then is not how the background is now.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because every staffer from the 90s was told the direction the game's background would go...

Sorry man, but what you were told then is not how the background is now.

i know, just wanted to tell the TRUTH to the newbies who would otherwise never know..... curse gws obsession with monk robes!!!

It occurs to me that despite being among the most successful Legions, the Dark Angels owe little of their success to Lion.

The Calaban exiles were banished after only one campaign, and the events of Fallen Angels occur a mere 50 years later, by which point the Heresy had begun.

 Omegus wrote:
It occurs to me that despite being among the most successful Legions, the Dark Angels owe little of their success to Lion.

The Calaban exiles were banished after only one campaign, and the events of Fallen Angels occur a mere 50 years later, by which point the Heresy had begun.

2nd edition codex stipulates that the fall of Calibran occurred after the heresy had finished.

And? The Heresy lasted only a handful of years, by which time the Great Crusade had stalled.

 Doctadeth wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
It occurs to me that despite being among the most successful Legions, the Dark Angels owe little of their success to Lion.

The Calaban exiles were banished after only one campaign, and the events of Fallen Angels occur a mere 50 years later, by which point the Heresy had begun.

2nd edition codex stipulates that the fall of Caliban occurred after the heresy had finished.

Codex Dark Angels 6th ed places the fall of Caliban in the "scouring" after the Heresy. ( page 8 ).
Right at their return from Terra, as it is was and will be.

Again, I don't see how that is relevant. Luther and the other Calaban warriors were banished to Calaban (ostensibly to oversee recruitment) about 50 years before the Heresy began. They were sent back after only a single short campaign, which was the first campaign the Dark Angels launched after being re-united with their Primarch.

So again, most of the First Legion's successes can be attributed to their Legion Masters. And most of the success of the knightly orders of Calaban can be attributed to Luther holding it all together while Lion hogged the glory.

Lion is basically the most extraneous Primarch of them all.

Legion masters? Wouldn't that be The Lion? He's resposible for the Legion's success or lack thereof.

Yeah, I'm not following Omegus on this one either.

Yeah I emigrated to Huh?-land on this one.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
as the title says, are the dark angels secret traitors?
i know that the they are supposed to be loyal but are they really?

Who knows...? People who dig too much into their exploits tend to meet their ends in unfortunate "accidents".

Some have suggested that Alpha Legion is actually working against Chaos, just undercover. Maybe DA are doing the reverse.

Just like to point out:
Russ himself pushed 2 chapters over the edge and engaged in combat with them:
-The Thousand Sons (Book 2)
-The Dark Angels (Lion and the Wolf)
Good on ya Mr Wolficans it's like everytime he engages a Loyalist Legion in battle, the legion ends up to a horrible fate, what's up with that?
As for OP:
I will compare the Lion to Sam off the Gone Series (Awsome Novels). Both think of themselves as leaders and dictators, ruling their people fairly, but then shrugging off all responsibility in times of peace to their counter-parts (Edilio for Sam and Luther for Lion) but when going to war their are among the best warriors of their people and great leaders in wartime, ready to crush the enemy, and leave their counter-parts behind.
The counter-parts get jealous that they are treated as slaves or bearers of news and not out by their best friends side.
Also another comparison between the two, they will say their loyal, but when questioned on it and ordered to do it, they will not take the crap and take advice from their own council (a tradition for the DA I guess) on where and when to kill the enemy.

If we take HH books to be canon and written "in time" (no historical distortion) then this is cut and dry. The Lion is loyal, Luther is a traitor, and Cypher could go either way. At the end of Fallen Angels we learn that the Lion lead a portion of his expedition to a forgotten forge world to secure siege engines that Horus ordered constructed roughly 50 years previous. After capturing these engines Perturabo and the Iron Warriors show up, apparently still loyal. The Lion and Perturabo have a talk and the Lion lays out his plans for after Horus's defeat, asking Perturabo for his backing in the Lion's push to become the new Warmaster. Of course Perturabo turns and hands the hard won engines over to Horus leading to the siege of Terra.

The Lion almost stopped the Heresy in its tracks with less than a Chapter's worth of Space Marines.

The only question in my mind is did the Lion leave Cypher to protect/stop Luther, did Cypher contribute to Luther's fall, or somewhere in between. It is strongly implied that the Lion understood that Caliban was tainted and that Cypher was the only other living person with this knowledge, having been a member of the Order of the Wolf.

"There is only the Emperor, none is worthy on inheriting that mantle." - Lion El'Jonson, The Primarchs.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Legion masters? Wouldn't that be The Lion? He's resposible for the Legion's success or lack thereof.

Uh no. The Legion Masters were the Space Marines who led the Legions before they were re-united with their Primarchs. One example is the dreadnought guy in Betrayer. He led the War Hounds before Angron came along.

My point is pretty simple.

Crusade lasted about two centuries, with the Dark Angels being literally the first Legion. The Lion wasn't found until ~50 years before the Heresy. So his contribution to the Dark Angels' accomplishments only encompasses maybe a quarter of the time they spent crusading.

 Just Dave wrote:
"There is only the Emperor, none is worthy on inheriting that mantle." - Lion El'Jonson, The Primarchs.

Nice - maybe that's why he didn't like Guiliman so much...

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
"There is only the Emperor, none is worthy on inheriting that mantle." - Lion El'Jonson, The Primarchs.

Nice - maybe that's why he didn't like Guiliman so much...

Yeah, there's another quote about him no sooner bending his knee to Guilliman, than to Horus and his belief they're both idiots...

 Omegus wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Legion masters? Wouldn't that be The Lion? He's resposible for the Legion's success or lack thereof.

Uh no. The Legion Masters were the Space Marines who led the Legions before they were re-united with their Primarchs. One example is the dreadnought guy in Betrayer. He led the War Hounds before Angron came along.

My point is pretty simple.

Crusade lasted about two centuries, with the Dark Angels being literally the first Legion. The Lion wasn't found until ~50 years before the Heresy. So his contribution to the Dark Angels' accomplishments only encompasses maybe a quarter of the time they spent crusading.

I see what you're talking about. I think The Lion was one of the first Primarchs found wasn't he? How much time each Primarch spent actually leading his Legion could be another interesting thread.

Yeah, those would be some pretty ... let's say interpretive calculations indeed ...

Well Omegus said 50 years so I assume he got that from somewhere. We do know Horus was found first (right?) and Alpharius last.

I'd like to know where the ~50 came from as well. At the end of Fallen Angels the Lion is discussing the siege engines he has just "acquired" and says that Horus ordered them constructed 50 years ago and he read that in a battle report. To me that says the Lion had been on crusade much longer than 50 years. Also they reference a few waves of new Astartes being brought up on Caliban and going from novice to battle brother, even in M31, takes a fair amount of time

The beginning of Fallen Angels, Zahariel states that Lion has let them languish on Caliban for half a century,

Much appreciated, I spend so much time harping on the end I guess I should pay more attention to the beginning