One of the most annoying player types I've encountered is TFG who complains every single time they lose a model. Tactical squad rolled ten saves and failed two? WHY CAN'T MY POWER ARMOR WORK. Lasguns rolled below average and killed a single model? LASGUNS ARE OVERPOWERED. You took plasma guns and killed something with them? STOP BEING TFG AND PLASMA SPAMMING. Killed a Land Raider? MELTA IS OP, STOP BEING TFG. No matter if you rolled average, or even below average, any outcome in which a space marine dies is automatically unfair. And needless to say this completely ruins the game, to the point where you have to start seriously considering not shooting anymore just to get them to shut up.
So, the question to the rest of you: is there something about having 2+/3+ armor saves that makes you expect that all of your stuff should never die? Are IG/Ork/etc players forced to learn how to handle losses or ragequit and disappear from the community faster? Or is it just coincidence that the examples that I've encountered have both been marine players?
People buy in to the dung BL, Sm fluff etc shovels that one SM can destroy/purge a world just by breathing, then get butthurt when their 'indestructible' SM's bite it.
Doesn't help that a lot of the time SM armies are the first one you have, and they are in many ways playing 40K on easy mode. I've found that non-SM players are a lot more accepting of the deaths of their armies.
Especially so for Nid, Ork and Horde Guard players, who generally get to remove their models by the spadeful each enemy turn..
Sm players are also the most likely to name every model in the force, write the name on the shoulder-pad and create bad fan-fiction about each one. Don't ask me why, but i've only seen this tendency in SM players.
It could be the small, elite thing, but i've not seem this tendency to get so emotionally invested in each guy in Eldar, or other armies that tend to the small and elite builds.
Ascalam wrote: Especially so for Nid, Ork and Horde Guard players, who generally get to remove their models by the spadeful each enemy turn..
Or even elite IG. Glass cannon artillery tanks die early and often, Chimeras explode and take half a veteran squad with them, plasma gunners kill themselves, etc. Even if you play elite IG you're going to either get used to removing your favorite models, or you're going to quit the game entirely within your first few games.
For example, the game that inspired this post: before we even put the first model on the table my opponent was complaining about my pair of Medusas and a LR Demolisher. So, how did this go?
My turn 1: Demolisher is out of range and searchlights something, Medusas put two glances on a Land Raider. Opponent whines about how unfair it is that I damaged the Land Raider.
His turn 1: Demolisher explodes, one Medusa explodes, and the other is immobilized with nothing to shoot at. I remove the models and figure out what unit now has to do the Medusa's job.
Did my opponent admit that the tanks weren't so scary after all? Of course not. He just moved the whining to the next unit which was able to kill a space marine.
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Painbiro wrote: Firstly, may I ask how old this player is? I get the impression he's an adult, which is really, really sad...
Both were adults, at least 20-30 years old. The opponent I played tonight was married with kids, so I can only imagine how bad family game night is...
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Ascalam wrote: Sm players are also the most likely to name every model in the force, write the name on the shoulder-pad and create bad fan-fiction about each one. Don't ask me why, but i've only seen this tendency in SM players.
The funny thing is that one of the people I'm thinking of played a completely bare plastic GK army and had barely even even read the fluff part of his codex. But over and over again he'd roll average or better on his armor saves and complain about how his power armor isn't working. It's like there was the mental blind spot on the fact that a 3+ save means you still fail a third of the time, and his expectation was that he had a rerollable 2++.
As a SM player I was a little taken aback at how often an obscenely expensive unit would die. After a few games I've gotten used to it. I find it's easier to just laugh it off and keep rolling the dice. Eventually your deathstar termi squad will be taken down at range before they can do anything, or calgar will mishap and get sucked into the warp. Nothing you can do, so keep playing and save the story for later conversations of epic fails.
That said after getting into apocalypse... well, nothing can prepare you for losing a titan... doesn't really matter what turn, or how bad it failed, seeing a titan that's half the size of the table die to tau broadsides... that's a hard one to live down.
This is usually a problem with the young space marine players. They think guard is over powered, so they start complaining the moment I put models down.
If I am not paired up to play against them, I don't chose to. I don't like having my opponent whine about my army the whole game. (Although if you rolled like I did today, whineing about how bad your are rolling is perfectly acceptable. )
I do tend to find that a disproportionate number of MEQ players do get whiney when they lose models. But then, I also find that the ones who'll whine loudest are the TFG's/Bandwagoner FotM types who go out and buy the newest greatest netlist and expect to win every game...
The only times I myself ever bemoan my Space Marines "forgetting to slip the 'ON' button" is when I'm lucky to be passing maybe 30% of my saves!
However, I try to keep it lighthearted and comical because everyone has those games where the dice gods just seem to hate you. Unfortuneately for me, that tends to be most games! Heck, one of the last games I played with my Salamanders, I passed barely 10% of my armour saves - 3+ is good my !
When I do vehemently complain though, it's typically because my opponent is being a donkeycave. Like the first game I ever had vs the new GK's;
- GK player looked at my case full of Daemons, then pulls out a bunch of Interceptors and a pair of 10 man Strike Squads...
- He wins the roll for first turn and I fail to grab the intiative...
- Doucebag Warp Quakes the entire table, and then juggles my auto-mishapping units between quake bubbles to ensure he auto-wipes my entire army!
- Then he tells me I deserve it for ruining Fantasy and being a WAAC's Daemon hole and I should go out and buy a real army instead of a broken pile of OP crap...
Sounds like you're playing against whiny and terrible people. It doesn't matter what army they're playing, they'll be the same way about everything.
Reasonable people might get miffed if they fail a disproportionate amount of saves. I know I've gotten a little despondent when I rolled 5 armor saves for terminators only to lose 4.
The difficulty stems from people who are not thinking clearly about what certain probabilities really mean.
A person who looks at a 3+ save may get in the mindset "I will always make this save" just like players who have a 5 or 6+ may fall into a " I will always fail this why bother" attitude. A 3+ save fails 1 in 3 and people who are not prepared for that will grouse.
There is also observer bias where people fixate on only the result they want; a marine player will discouragingly only focus on his failures and declares 'my dice sucks' or ' X is overpowered'. It takes a fair bit of maturity to overcome that, something not everyone you will play against will ever see.
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Experiment 626 wrote: I do tend to find that a disproportionate number of MEQ players do get whiney when they lose models. But then, I also find that the ones who'll whine loudest are the TFG's/Bandwagoner FotM types who go out and buy the newest greatest netlist and expect to win every game...
The only times I myself ever bemoan my Space Marines "forgetting to slip the 'ON' button" is when I'm lucky to be passing maybe 30% of my saves!
However, I try to keep it lighthearted and comical because everyone has those games where the dice gods just seem to hate you. Unfortuneately for me, that tends to be most games! Heck, one of the last games I played with my Salamanders, I passed barely 10% of my armour saves - 3+ is good my !
When I do vehemently complain though, it's typically because my opponent is being a donkeycave. Like the first game I ever had vs the new GK's;
- GK player looked at my case full of Daemons, then pulls out a bunch of Interceptors and a pair of 10 man Strike Squads...
- He wins the roll for first turn and I fail to grab the intiative...
- Doucebag Warp Quakes the entire table, and then juggles my auto-mishapping units between quake bubbles to ensure he auto-wipes my entire army!
- Then he tells me I deserve it for ruining Fantasy and being a WAAC's Daemon hole and I should go out and buy a real army instead of a broken pile of OP crap...
Thats why I pack more than one army, If is see list tailoring my alternate army is easily able to afford the same courtesy.
Theres this kid in my neighborhood who is exactly like that. He basically cries anytime he loses something in his TEQ spam army. Then for some reason, he just stopped showing up to play at my HS game club like thing. We all just kinda shrugged and didn't care, no one really like to play him anyway.
Then a few months down the line he came back. I was the first man "Into the breach". When he went to go assault my poor 10 man vet squad with 5 Termies, my vets must have gotten REALLY pissed off at this and overwatch then killed 1 of them (The termies), and in the following melee the vets killed ALL the remaining Terminators. We all expected him to just rage-quit, but instead we both started laughing our asses off at what just happened all the while creating interesting stories about what it must have been like.
We don't know what caused the kid to change, but he's no longer TFG. Maybe in his absence a wave of maturity finally hit him haha
There is also observer bias where people fixate on only the result they want; a marine player will discouragingly only focus on his failures and declares 'my dice sucks' or ' X is overpowered'. It takes a fair bit of maturity to overcome that, something not everyone you will play against will ever see.
I can say that, at least for me, I start to get frustrated when I lose a marine every time I have to roll more one or more saves. It's irritating having 2 and 3+ saves but losing precious models because I can't stop rolling 1's...this is compounded by the fact that my opponent habitually rolls well on his saves and hardly ever loses anything unless I put a blindingly huge firing squad to it.
That said, it takes until turn 4 or 5 for this to start really getting to me...it's a frustrating experience having the odds work so heavily in your favor on paper but to then roll a terminator death three turns in a row because one lasgun got through and you rolled three 1's (yes I've had this happen).
It's all in how you handle it though. I've seen people get frustrated at the other player like he's cheating or something. For me, I scoff at it and move on, but inside i'm going "ffffuuuuuuuuuuu"
I only find it frustrating when the dice come up with a really really unexpected result.
Failing 5/6 2+ saves on your hammernators as they try to split open the skulls of guardsmen, or having your opponent pass every single save he makes in a round of shooting...
It can be frustrating, and it can fray nerves if you are super serious, but what generally happens is you as a player remember the time you fail all your saves, and conveniently forget all the times you pass your saves.
As an example, back in 3rd ed, my necron phalanx got pretty much wiped out by guard in a single round of shooting, i had 35/45 necrons down, when it came to my WBB rolls, 28 or 29 of them got back up again. this is remembered by me because it won me the game, and by my opponent because it cost him the game.
As quite a veteran gamer, i expect casualties, and i am quite happy to sacrifice units if it will win me the game, but newer players in particular aren't quite as comfortable with this abstract view of the game, and so drama can ensue
The only reason I complain when I get beat with my Space marines/Necrons is because it's completely my fault. I may have the worst dice rolling luck EVER.
It's not because my opponent took anything "overpowered", it's because I fail 75% of my dice rolls, both offensively and defensively, lol. You would think that a 3+ armor save would translate into a better than 50% chance of saving against wounds, but not from these golden fingers, noooo.
In all seriousness, though, I think it's because Space marine players with the wrong attitude are set up to fail. They are told at every turn how SM armies are the best sure-fire winning army, by everyone on the 'net, and by GW itself using them as the posterboy army. So when their so-called "easy mode" army is at the mercy of a player with better tactics on the table, and pure luck itself with the dice, it can be a harsh reality. Necrons tend to have players of the same mindset, too, especially of late.
I mean, c'mon, the other armies' worth are basically compared against Space Marines as a baseline, ala "Eldar Dark Reaper armor is 3+, that's as good as a Space Marine!".
For the record, when I play Eldar, I use tons of Starcannons against my buddies Black Templars. That's because Eldar are smart, not OP, lol.
I can safely say I'm gonna name all of my models in my future SM army, but instead of whining, I just roll a series of d6s to see if I gotta rename models. XD Seriously, I hate morons who believe fluff translates into TT ability
I don't know if it's as much fluff translation as it is believing the hype laid down on all Space Marine-based armies. Plus, lets face it. A lot of us are huge nerds, and at our core are hoping to be vindicated by finally showing our dominance over somebody by winning, and some of us can't overcome that feeling and just have fun. So they rage when they can't win, because frankly that's all they are wanting out of the experience.
Just look at experiences. A bunch of use have (at least) once faced off against that guy that doesn't seem to want to engage us socially during a game, they just boredly move their models across the table. They make it clear that the only facet they are looking to get anything from is the winning endgame.
You may not see a conection here but, When I run my little Hive Tyrant deathstar. You know the 2+ and the 3 guards thing. Anyways Iv noticed that when I'm hungry my tyrant does better overall, like passes its saves or hits and kills things in CC. I know it sounds dumb but it works for me. (Note: its only my Hive tyrant that works this way, all my other MC and troops dont get afftected by this.)
And for TFC who complaine all the time. I had a guy call my 4 bessis and mantacore army overpowerd....
It's not just the 3+ save. When you're dealing with Tactical squads, it's basically 8 models with a 3+ save until you get to the stuff that actually has value.
madtankbloke wrote: I only find it frustrating when the dice come up with a really really unexpected result.
Failing 5/6 2+ saves on your hammernators as they try to split open the skulls of guardsmen, or having your opponent pass every single save he makes in a round of shooting...
It can be frustrating, and it can fray nerves if you are super serious, but what generally happens is you as a player remember the time you fail all your saves, and conveniently forget all the times you pass your saves.
I guess I'm so used to crap dice that it doesn't bother me anymore... I mean, my 'Space Marine gaming career' has always typically gone;
- Every single plasma weapon in the army exploding spectacularly on its first shots. Hell, I've tabled myself on the final turn a couple times just through plasma overheats!
- Failing every single dangerous terrain test throughout an ENTIRE TOURNAMENT! on a Rhino w/Dozer Blade upgrade.
- Passing maaaaybe 30% of my armour saves on a regular basis. (please, never make me roll saves for Termies, it's never pretty! )
- Routinely failing the one or two or so Dangerous Terrain checks on Jump Infantry. (and yet, my IG Drop Troops hardly ever died to the same, but apparently my marines' just love flying head first into solid walls or swan diving onto tree limbs! )
- My Librarians routinly like to fail their psychic tests on boxcars... At a tournament over the summer, my one idiot Epistolary managed to outright kill himself in 3 of 6 games doing this!
- My MISSile launchers and lascannons are lucky to hit once or twice a game. Then of corse, I like to roll just under what I need to glance/pen the target that's been raping my army for the past 3-4 turns! (hell, I think I should just use the blindfolded mutation sprue head for my gunners - they're be just as accurate!)
- I've never once passed Cypher's 4++ save on 3D6.
Sure I have the occaional good game of average or slightly above rolling, but it's not very often... Still, I don't understand why I should ever get seriously upset about it? If anything, it's quite funny to see just much worse things can get!
My best game ever though was that one game I rolled like a champ and nearly tabled Phil Kelly's Ulthwe army! (in 3rd edition w/Codex: Armageddon Salamanders no less!)
No way I'd ever forget that moment of triumph!
Yeah I think it's the people not the army. I play regularly against a SW player and more often than not I gun down his wolf guard with lasguns which just leads to us laughing and chatting. Same with the BA player.
However I kill one gaunt with a stray shot? OMG THE GARD R OP. My local tyranid player is the one who can't seem to handle losing a model.
However I kill one gaunt with a stray shot? OMG THE GARD R OP. My local tyranid player is the one who can't seem to handle losing a model.
God.. that must be awful to a man running gaunts
I mean, I'll bitch a little when a flamer kills 5/5 terminators but the whining is more of a facepalm of disbelief than anything. I haven't run into much of the same problem with anyone that you have peregrine, though I've only just started attending my FLGS regularly, so I'm sure I'll run into this sooner or later
Figuring out how to respond to such children would be nice though
Peregrine wrote: Lasguns rolled below average and killed a single model? LASGUNS ARE OVERPOWERED.
If someone ever said that to me I would quickly reply "AND THERE'S NOT A DAMN THING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT" and wear the smuggest face I could muster.
Ahh.. There's my solution. + = me
Also! If someone starts spouting garbage like the plethora of examples that have been listed here, one could also start suggesting "solutions" to this problem.
Well.. you know.. 3 Assault marine squads with twin LC Sarges, and whirlwinds, are great hard counters to plasma gun spam. OH! and 5 man TAC squads in a twin linked heavy flamer razor back. Those are great too. Will totally wreck an army like mine... yeah...
YAH BURN PEREGRINE, U PLAY AT THE DAYCARE OR SOMEFIN?
But no, really. There are plenty of adults with poor gaming-etiquette.
Have you ever played online games?
The glorious thing about 40k is that it's played face-to-face. Playing 40k with someone who's an immature little bitch, regardless of their age, would be like having sex with someone who's ugly, then complaining when you can't achieve orgasm.
The glorious thing about 40k is that it's played face-to-face. Playing 40k with someone who's an immature little bitch, regardless of their age, would be like having sex with someone who's ugly, then complaining when you can't achieve orgasm.
What a remarkably crass analogy.
But in 40k, you don't complain about the person's face. You complain about their attitude, which more often than not comes out DURING said game, not beforehand. Can't really preemptively refuse a game because someone "looks immature". Then once you're deployed, and a turn or two in, you're not going to back down. You'll avoid them later, yes. But that one game probably is just going to involve some teeth-gritting.
Now, my policy about not playing against ugly people; that's a different story.
People who're decent and reasonable are usually decent and reasonable to play against. Harking back to my sex analogy, it's rare for people to spontaniously change personality once they take their clothes off - if you're a good judge of charector you should be able to tell what they're like off the bat.
Testify wrote: People who're decent and reasonable are usually decent and reasonable to play against. Harking back to my sex analogy, it's rare for people to spontaniously change personality once they take their clothes off - if you're a good judge of charector you should be able to tell what they're like off the bat.
How can you judge someone's character based on:
"Hey man, do you want to play an 1850 game?"
"Yeah, let me grab my stuff."
Unless you're psychic. Which would be cool.
Not to mention, its totally possible for someone to change dispositions when their luck turns sour. Seen it happen.
Testify wrote: People who're decent and reasonable are usually decent and reasonable to play against. Harking back to my sex analogy, it's rare for people to spontaniously change personality once they take their clothes off - if you're a good judge of charector you should be able to tell what they're like off the bat.
How can you judge someone's character based on:
"Hey man, do you want to play an 1850 game?"
"Yeah, let me grab my stuff."
Unless you're psychic. Which would be cool.
Not to mention, its totally possible for someone to change dispositions when their luck turns sour. Seen it happen.
Well, I wouldn't play a game with someone like that until I'd at least talked to them first. If you're willing to play with complete strangers you can't really complain when they turn out to be dickheads.
Well, I wouldn't play a game with someone like that until I'd at least talked to them first. If you're willing to play with complete strangers you can't really complain when they turn out to be dickheads.
So you can judge someone based on a pre-game conversation, but I can't judge someone based on how they act during the actual game?
Also what if I don't have the option but to play a complete stranger? I should give up my hobby from fear of finding an asshat?
I bring this up because I'm uprooting and moving <200miles from where I've lived most of my life, I don't have any choice but to play people I don't know, and a short conversation (most likely about 40k) won't do anything to let me know if they're a jackass. Unless of course I get "Imperial Guard are OP!" as a response to unpacking...
I think it has a lot to do with individual unit values. Marine players tend to have the idea that each model is very valuable and effective, as well as expensive in point cost. Losing 5 terminators to unlucky rolls can easily result in losing the game. It's especially bad when it's massed grot blaster fire or another cheap unit. It's the point disparity.
The other part is how prevalent AP3 weapons are because of a marine overpopulation. Suddenly the feeling is that those 16 point models should only cost 10, since the armor save I'd worthless anyway when everyone is generally sitting in cover that gives them a free sv upgrade.
Of course this is misleading because they forget how many other people pay 10-12 points per basic model, often with inferior stats. All they see is their elite, expensive marines getting blasted to bits by "inferior" forces.
kill my Eldar Jetbike seer council with Plasma guns?.......no problem
Kill my Dire Avengers with boltguns and plasma guns?.....no problem
Kill my Wraithguard with any shooting at all?.......no problem...
but......
start pulling stupid things like Mindshackle Scarabs? And anything that can kill invulnerable save models without them getting any kind of save what so ever and I start to get a little angry. I start thinking things like "what's it called an invulnerable save for if it isn't truly invulnerable?"
I think things like that don't belong in the game in the first place. No saves of any kind abilities make me angry.
start pulling stupid things like Mindshackle Scarabs? And anything that can kill invulnerable save models without them getting any kind of save what so ever and I start to get a little angry.
This is mainly a problem of space Marine players. Me, I play two armies with. The worse saves, IG and orks. Funniest game I ever listened too, while I was playing, was between grey knights a d blood angels. Each complaining over something. Feel no pain, psychic powers, special ammo, and so on.
I had something like this.... except it was a bit different.
Me and a mate had gotten our small armies together and I lost my rule book up his house, now keep in mind that this was before I had time to learn the main rules..... Anyway he would constantly change and make up rules to suit his needs, it's pretty obvious looking back at things now that I have a better grip on the game.
I know my Tau were bad..... but they weren't that bad.
Yeah, This is my general interpretation of a Space Marine player. They want to play the invincible ultra mega super duper soldiers. They are spoon fed the marysue fluff that BL shoves down each and every SM fanboy's throat. "One Space Marine is equal to One Hundred Men." *Scoff*
The fact is Space Marines are a very powerful army, but many players, mostly newer, play them like they are a unbeatable force that can weather any amount of abuse and still win by a landslide.
Last week I had a SM player charge a Squad of Assault Marines into my MegaNobs, after I only took one wound and proceeded to Destroy his entire squad, he gave up on the spot (Turn 3), and Proceeded to tell me how Orks shouldn't have access to 2+ saves and powerfists. Says the player with 2+/3++ Thunderhammer wielding Assault Termies.
All in all, the majority of SM are powergaming tools.
people are far more likely to remember insanely unlikely dice rolls. and they are far more likely to remember unlucky unlikely dice rolls
the most insane episode of dice rolling i ever had was this.
3rd ed Necrons v SM
My opponent had flattened most of my necrons in 1 turn of insane shooting, 35/50 or so necrons were on the floor. when it came to my WBB rolls, 30 or so of them got back up... it won me the game.
I have forgotten all other episodes of avergae luck i've had with my WBB rolls, but that has always stuck in both our minds, and my opponent to this day sometimes says 'if only you hadn't made all those WBB rolls i would have won that game..'
Ha, I remember the first time I used Legion of the Damned. I was under the impression that "Yeah 3 up invuln WOO", but I ended up losing the squad in close combat to...guardsmen.
DUN DUN DUUUUUUN
Since Space Marines didn't really grab my focus, I focused on my Imperial Guard. Whenever one of them dies, I just brush it off.
"Oh, it's just another guardsman, poor Omar, MOVING ON!"
The only time I ever got mad about losing a lot of guardsmen was when I was still in high school. A bunch of people were talking and stealing my attention away from the game by trying to talk to me, and I ended up destroying over half of a platoon with valkyrie MRPs that scattered the wrong way.
I ended up yelling at everyone to STFU.
In the end, I would have won the game due to flamer fun vs. deldar, but the bell rang.
Now, to get back on topic, I am actually friends with the kind of person who'll say "lasguns are OP", and "I hate guard they are so OP they should be BS-12 in comparison to SM". I just laugh and whittle his marines away.
I for one cant roll for . So when i played GK (until shortly after the new codex) i was used to heavy losses and it was kinda a bummer. For me it came from "I just dropped X points on something shouldn't it have done better?" but ya it does happen a ton particularly with stronger units. like killing a squad of termies with 5 rapid fire flashlights pissed off the guy i was playing. well either that or the "I cant believe that just happened" look on my face.
I've known a lot of cool SM players too. But we did have TFG in our high school game club. He believed my Orks were scum and thought it was bs that the warboss with power klaw could take out his tanks. He said "That would never happen, the tank would just run him over"
cox.dan2 wrote: I've known a lot of cool SM players too. But we did have TFG in our high school game club. He believed my Orks were scum and thought it was bs that the warboss with power klaw could take out his tanks. He said "That would never happen, the tank would just run him over"
I think this has something to do that there are so many marine players. If most of the people at your game store play marines, it stands to reason that there is a very good chance that the TFGs and whiners will be playing marines. Marines also tend to attract the younger crowd, as we all know, so lots of times the maturity level just isn't there yet.
As a SM player my self (and probly a bad fan-fiction writer some would say lol) it does not bother me if my army cops it because I just enjoy the game.
I remember playing my first ever game against nids and thinking this is awesome as I watched this lonelictor go on a rampage and cutting through my lads until all that was left from both sides was a lictor and a preditor with it's turret ripped off armed only with a bolter facing off over a body strewn battlefield.
I learned then and there that it's just the luck of the dice to how a game goes and who lives and dies as unbelievably my pred gun down the lictor on it's third of forth attempt.
In war people die, fact. And if your an SM player and your facing defeat, raise your banner high as you charge the hated enemy while 'shouting for the Emperor!' until you die gloriously for your lord and master. Marines don't moun, they die without a whimper of self pity.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! This should be entitled Warboss vs. Farseer.
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prophet102 wrote: To contradict some of you. Ive gone entire games with my GK making every single save so to an extent power armor is invincible when your lucky.
In that case, my Orks are invincible as well because It is possible for me to roll all 6's if I get really lucky, or for you to roll all 1's.
Loki is a big enough jerk to be DE , and is apparently fething lousy at predicting the future (or he would have run like hell instead of talking to the Hulk that way
I'm so fortunate that at the game store I play at, at the end of EACH battle, we shake hands congratulate the winner and then exchange tips and things we could have done better.
Also, I remember one game where I nearly tabled my opponent by turn 4, I kept apologising about my dice rolls.
I don't think I get angry if I lose.. more like depressed really.
for example, in my last game against nids. A dakka pred opened fired on a group of hormagaunts, where I procede to roll 8 d6. only one heavy bolter hit, and it didn't even wound.
Also, when the doom of malan'tai dropped on my "castle", he proceded to kill my terminators with the str 4 AP2 pieplate, and used leach life the assault phase.
I lost 2 tactical squads and the rest of my terminator squad. I killed it in my next turn, but by then the Swarmlord got to my lines and tore my guys a new one.
just moments like that that make me me feel so happy
In fact I only got angry when another guy saw me mopeing around after the game, comes up and asks "So how did the game go? did you win?)"
Brother SRM wrote: Sounds like you're playing against whiny and terrible people. It doesn't matter what army they're playing, they'll be the same way about everything.
Reasonable people might get miffed if they fail a disproportionate amount of saves. I know I've gotten a little despondent when I rolled 5 armor saves for terminators only to lose 4.
I got pretty annoyed when something like that happened. I was trying out Ravenwing/Deathwing, and was depending on my DW terminators to do most of the killing. I ended up having the rotten luck of rolling so many 1's for my Terminators, even my opponent agreed that the dice gods were hating on me on that day.
Otherwise, I don't really care if I lose models. 6th ed rules on wound allocations made it easier for me to make my bolter dudes be the ablative wounds and all that.
start pulling stupid things like Mindshackle Scarabs? And anything that can kill invulnerable save models without them getting any kind of save what so ever and I start to get a little angry.
Why. It's an ability of the wargear.
Because, invulnerable saves aren't truly invulnerable if you can get around them are they...it is a stupid ability that should have never been put in the game. I didn't pay a god awful amount of points to keep my independent character safe just so some Space Wolf Rune Priest can Jaws of the World Wolf him off the table with one hit. Or a Dark Eldar doing pretty much the same thing with a lot of their wargear. Or Necrons grabbing a hold of an Eldar mind and making them attack themselves ( Eldar are known for having the most powerful self control of all the races, why would mindshackle scarabs even work on them?)
Those abilities are, in my opinion, very bad game design. Taking away armour saves or cover saves I can understand but NOTHING should have ever gotten past an invulnerable save.
It's not cheap at all. Invulnerable saves aren't totally invulnerable to begin with. But they do give you the ability to ignore things IF you roll well. But not if you roll bad. Volume of fire and bad rolls is how a person should have to get through an invul save, not some cheap piece of wargear that makes a person that it is used against feel as if they have been cheated, even though by the rules, they haven't.
If a model has an invul save it should be able to try to make that save vs everything.
I've only encountered this kind of behaviour from new players and one friend of mine but he has always been a sore loser. I am more likely to encounter "meh, another marine player" attitude when I put my captain on the table, though that attitude turns into "wtf" soon when I start unloading my scouts on the table and soon they will be asking that where is all my power armor (and I just answer "right there" and point at the captain).
People should remember that it is all a game that involves dice so luck has a quite big part in it.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: Those abilities are, in my opinion, very bad game design. Taking away armour saves or cover saves I can understand but NOTHING should have ever gotten past an invulnerable save.
Invulnerable saves have been able to be negated since 3rd edition. Be glad that you don't have to deal with Dreadaxe Dæmon Princes or old Callidus Assassins assaulting anywhere on the board from reserves with C'tan Phase Swords-- both of these units were very strong in assault and ignored all saves completely.
I think poor sportsmanship, immaturity and overly emotional gaming is represented among the gamers of all races, not just marines. In fact some of the most enjoyable gaming I've had was against mature gamers (commanding Ultramarines etc *THE HORROR*) with beautifully painted armies.
Roadkill Zombie wrote: It's not cheap at all. Invulnerable saves aren't totally invulnerable to begin with. But they do give you the ability to ignore things IF you roll well. But not if you roll bad. Volume of fire and bad rolls is how a person should have to get through an invul save, not some cheap piece of wargear that makes a person that it is used against feel as if they have been cheated, even though by the rules, they haven't.
If a model has an invul save it should be able to try to make that save vs everything.
Invulnerable save in general is silly. Because invulnerable is invulnerable. Not a chance to be invulnerable.
So your invulnerable save is a chance to be invulnerable.
Certain wargear alter that chance. To 0%.
Your invuln save is still there. You just can't use it.
If you're upset about the invuln save being ignored by things, you just don't understand the nature of invuln saves.
Jaws ignores it because it sucks you into the warp. Its not hitting you, it's not damaging you, so there's nothing for the invuln to save. It just causes you to go somewhere else.
To the eldar thing; so they have the most powerful self control? Doesn't mean it's perfect self-control. Just better than everyone else. Which is disputable. Because Tyranids have better self control. Because they don't think.
Loki is a big enough jerk to be DE , and is apparently fething lousy at predicting the future (or he would have run like hell instead of talking to the Hulk that way
my archon would have something to say to that... the shadow field is always the kicker- splattering pesky straken was a highlight of one game, we had a laugh after he got whipped to death
on topic...
i'll say now some folks get wound up over some things rightly or wrongly and are entitled to their opinions (even if they are acting like idiots)- however currently to my embarressment i can't help but having a rage against necron scarbs i'll find a way eventually but i just can't kill the darn things fast enough, and the entropic strike mechanic is absurd (thats enough calm down now... )
some marine palyers don't like it when you turn their army to scrap metal, by fair means or foul (in their eyes that its ). The few idiots that i've met have tended to give me an odd first impression from the moment you ask them (for any army this is) for a game/meet them in a tournament. They might not be a bad person but they are of a dispostion that really seems strange- what usually rears it head is the quote "what the hell are they on i wish i had some" .
i haven't met any of these types in a while though, if i ever played a game at a store i'd expect to bump into one or two, as I pointed out to a few newbie 40k players recently- marines are not always the best, it depends upon your list and playstyle preferences.
I had a regular opponent for years. Played him over 50 times, won 0- drew 6- lost 47......
It didn't matter what I bought to the table, Eldar, Nids, SM, C:SM, blob IG, Necrons, Tau.. He ate them all with his Orks. We played through 3 iterations of 40k, from 2nd through to 5th. It didn't matter what I rolled, he bettered it. His tactics were superior, his army was constantly evolving and he was quite the most disgustingly lucky person I've ever met. Add these things to the fact that I'm (still) tactically naive and just about the unluckiest bloke in the TT universe, and I had every reason to be TFG.
However, we almost always had a great time, didn't matter if it was 500pts over lunch time or 5000pts over the weekend. It was always awesome. Good beer, good music and good company.
Sure, there were times when I rage-quit, there were times when I thought "screw this, I'm taking up M:TG" ( which I was marginally more successful at tbh) but most of the time it was played in a good and friendly way.
As for SM players, I've met a few who were tools, but no more than I feel when I lose a tac squad to 6 Grots and a fething runtherd... I just like to hide my emotions until I'm mulling over the result with mates at home or in the pub. Some people can't help but get emotional when their army gets tabled after 3 turns. Suck it up and learn from it, that's all I can say really!
I play Blood Angels, Nurgle Chaos Marines, Tyranids and Tau.
Means I only cry half the time
Seriously though the army choice has little to do with it; it's down to the personality of the player although Marines are the army of choice for the majority so maybe it skews perceptions slightly.
Consider that it's easy to put faith in a 3+ compared 5+ or 6+ so it can seem more galling when you fail. Hell I stopped taking Termies because I always trusted the 2+ and it never paid off.
Well, it's more frustrating to lose a high value model than one (or several even) low point models, if only because it's visibly a more significant piece of your army missing. This applies to any elite army, marines are just the most common by far.
TrickyTaquito wrote: Well, it's more frustrating to lose a high value model than one (or several even) low point models, if only because it's visibly a more significant piece of your army missing. This applies to any elite army, marines are just the most common by far.
This. Every Space marine is quite an investment. The local SM player at our store never misses a chance to bitch. I honestly don't understand it, as I play orks. So while I remove mine by the fistful, the dude has a hissy fit when Brother Gerald gets a choppa to the face.
I honestly find it liberating playing orks. Not giving a hoot about each model is rather nice.
I have a friend who plays IG that does this exact thing when i start unpacking my necrons.
i will pop a couepl of his tansk and he will just give up and start sayign "well the games over, nothing i can do about it now" everytiem i roll a dice.
for a whiel i switched to my Chaos army any time i played him as i coudn't be bother with the whining, but i have gotten tot he poitn where i'm thinking I actually prefer my necrons - i prefer shooty armies and that's why i started buying them in the first place.
i have even told him on several occasions exactly hwo to beat (hwo to get around RP, what to shoot thsi particular unti with etc etc) btu nothgin seems to hep him get over it.
What an excellent and mature OP! I love it when emphircal research and TTG come together.
Clearly you are experiancing a normal situation and given your sample size of two, this is a study that surely does not warrent investigation or analysis, but should immediately be published as a warning to not only possible future SM players, but to anyone unfortunate enough to face them.
Yes, the second you pick up a SM model, brain chemistry is altered. It comes from the curve of the paldrons mainly, but good science also shows that it is also a natural change that can come from reading the unique flavor of SM fluff in the Codex. Both the aura of power from the "power armor" (see what they did to you there?) and the constant pumping of expectations from the codex lore, make it impossible for otherwise intelligent humans to discern 2/6 odds and the randomness of dice. I am sure that you have never encountered a mature SM player, as the 3+ save actually does make this impossible.
This is only true, as you hypothesized, when using 2+/3+ armour. Players who run an all scout marine force only deal with this crippling effect when their HQ is attacked, but are otherwise unaffected.
Luckily there are calm and rational IG players, like yourself, out there, that are devoid of the hyperbole and knee-jerk "TFG syndrome" that SM players are so susceptible to. The maturity and depth of character of the IG players (who never whine about be rolled by any CC unit out there or complain of the change to "heavy" that the Leman Russ went through or have a long history of personal attacks and a natural proclivity to call people "stupid" on internet forums ) is also due to thier choice of plastic army guys to push around the table. Clearly in being so upset about people complaining about irrational blind spots, they would never themselves go complain irrationally about something so trivial and silly, that in even uttering of the offense, one would question the intellect of the party(s) involved... :S
Ascalam wrote: Especially so for Nid, Ork and Horde Guard players, who generally get to remove their models by the spadeful each enemy turn..
Or even elite IG. Glass cannon artillery tanks die early and often, Chimeras explode and take half a veteran squad with them, plasma gunners kill themselves, etc. Even if you play elite IG you're going to either get used to removing your favorite models, or you're going to quit the game entirely within your first few games.
For example, the game that inspired this post: before we even put the first model on the table my opponent was complaining about my pair of Medusas and a LR Demolisher. So, how did this go?
My turn 1: Demolisher is out of range and searchlights something, Medusas put two glances on a Land Raider. Opponent whines about how unfair it is that I damaged the Land Raider.
His turn 1: Demolisher explodes, one Medusa explodes, and the other is immobilized with nothing to shoot at. I remove the models and figure out what unit now has to do the Medusa's job.
Did my opponent admit that the tanks weren't so scary after all? Of course not. He just moved the whining to the next unit which was able to kill a space marine.
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Painbiro wrote: Firstly, may I ask how old this player is? I get the impression he's an adult, which is really, really sad...
Both were adults, at least 20-30 years old. The opponent I played tonight was married with kids, so I can only imagine how bad family game night is...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote: Sm players are also the most likely to name every model in the force, write the name on the shoulder-pad and create bad fan-fiction about each one. Don't ask me why, but i've only seen this tendency in SM players.
The funny thing is that one of the people I'm thinking of played a completely bare plastic GK army and had barely even even read the fluff part of his codex. But over and over again he'd roll average or better on his armor saves and complain about how his power armor isn't working. It's like there was the mental blind spot on the fact that a 3+ save means you still fail a third of the time, and his expectation was that he had a rerollable 2++.
1. Yes some Marines players are way out of line.
2. True story i was using my deathwing against my friends IG he fires 3 plasma gunners 2 1's 1 arnor save failed His Reaction "Yes, Only 1 Died!!!"
It is all in how you play the game I admit to naming everyone in my Deathwing some names are serious some are funny.But I am far more accepting of losing models as I also play Skaven in WHFB (where you actually have the rule Expendable.) I think most people who run elite armies hate how their soldiers are no where near as tough as they are in the fluff and the average guardsman is a lot more dangerous (compared to fluff.)
To put this into words that can be simply explained Fluff does not equal Rules. Get over play the game.
Testify wrote: People who're decent and reasonable are usually decent and reasonable to play against. Harking back to my sex analogy, it's rare for people to spontaniously change personality once they take their clothes off - if you're a good judge of charector you should be able to tell what they're like off the bat.
How can you judge someone's character based on:
"Hey man, do you want to play an 1850 game?"
"Yeah, let me grab my stuff."
Unless you're psychic. Which would be cool.
Not to mention, its totally possible for someone to change dispositions when their luck turns sour. Seen it happen.
I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.
For example, the game that inspired this post: before we even put the first model on the table my opponent was complaining about my pair of Medusas and a LR Demolisher. So, how did this go?
My turn 1: Demolisher is out of range and searchlights something, Medusas put two glances on a Land Raider. Opponent whines about how unfair it is that I damaged the Land Raider.
His turn 1: Demolisher explodes, one Medusa explodes, and the other is immobilized with nothing to shoot at. I remove the models and figure out what unit now has to do the Medusa's job.
Did my opponent admit that the tanks weren't so scary after all? Of course not. He just moved the whining to the next unit which was able to kill a space marine.
You're not able to do that, you have to fire ALL your weapons at the target, if you cannot do that you cannot light something up, so he was somewhat right in his complaint.
I kind of noticed that people tend to whine when they feel like they've been taken out of the game quickly. Alpha strike armies, such as my Dark Eldar, cause a lot of whining when turn one your Land Raider is a wreck as well as the vindicator. Also I've been called cheese because of the Night Vision. Cheese? Dark Eldar? Wha?
I used to be a real tool when I first started playing in 2nd edition. I had a space marine army, and no matter what flavour of the week army my friend picked up, I always ended up fighting tooth and nail over the course of every fight, his new army was always cheesier than my army, right up until I got Mephiston to play with. After that, he got the Chaos Codex, and I'd get minced up by Kharn the Betrayer and Abbadon.
Since then, a lot of time has passed, and I've collected Eldar and more Recently, some Orks. My first effort was to join the local GW store's Apocalypse games. This did a great job of setting the tone. On the turn my reinforcements turned up, My Avatar skewered a unit of Bloodcrushers single-handedly, and my ten-strong unit of Wraithguard hilariously overkilled a Necron Annihilation barge. The next turn, my Avatar was shot to bits by bolters, and my Wraithguard were obliterated by a Monolith pieplate and a C'tan. At this point I learned: My local store doesn't have Eldar players, so my units were a nasty shock to the other side, and that drawing a lot of attention to yourself in an Apocalypse game is a bad idea. I grinned as my models were wiped out as they had made an impression, and that the other team did a good job with their dice rolls.
Since playing about with my Eldar in Apoc I have had a quick 500pt game with my fledgling Ork army and almost got tabled by a Tzeentch daemon force.
Picking an army with low survivability or just taking part in an Apocalypse game teaches you pretty quickly not to worry too much about losses. As gpfunk says, it's liberating to know you'll take heavy casualties. It teaches you to think about the bigger picture in your games rather than lamenting your centrepiece unit being mauled by bad luck.
Do consider that Space Marines of all flavors are some of the most popular armies, and many players make sure they have the tools to deal with Power Armor. The SM player isn't cursing you in particular, he's just tired of meeting armies full of guns that deny him saves or wound his marines on 2+ so he has to roll a bucket of saves where statistically 1/3 fail.
ShatteredBlade wrote: I kind of noticed that people tend to whine when they feel like they've been taken out of the game quickly. Alpha strike armies, such as my Dark Eldar, cause a lot of whining when turn one your Land Raider is a wreck as well as the vindicator. Also I've been called cheese because of the Night Vision. Cheese? Dark Eldar? Wha?
Hrm, with AV10 on most vehicles, i suppose your opponent simply mean't swiss cheese.
Spetulhu wrote: Do consider that Space Marines of all flavors are some of the most popular armies, and many players make sure they have the tools to deal with Power Armor. The SM player isn't cursing you in particular, he's just tired of meeting armies full of guns that deny him saves or wound his marines on 2+ so he has to roll a bucket of saves where statistically 1/3 fail.
So Imperial Guard players should be suicidal, right?
Because every gun denies my save, wounds me on 3+ or better, and most instant death me.
ShatteredBlade wrote: I kind of noticed that people tend to whine when they feel like they've been taken out of the game quickly. Alpha strike armies, such as my Dark Eldar, cause a lot of whining when turn one your Land Raider is a wreck as well as the vindicator. Also I've been called cheese because of the Night Vision. Cheese? Dark Eldar? Wha?
Hrm, with AV10 on most vehicles, i suppose your opponent simply mean't swiss cheese.
When every vehicle in your codex bar two things can be glanced to death by bolters, I tend to agree.
Spetulhu wrote: Do consider that Space Marines of all flavors are some of the most popular armies.
So Imperial Guard players should be suicidal, right?
Ofc not. The marine player just sees losses as much worse - the points that bought him ten marines gets a Guard player 25-30 men to sacrifice. And if people stock up on anti-marine weapons they're wasting points on high-strength low-AP guns if they happen to face you instead. A guard commander knows from the start that he needs to sacrifice some men in order to win. A marine player has all the GW poster boy hype as well as the Codex hype about wargear to make him feel like the marines should be doing better instead of just dying out there.
I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.
He sounds very interested in learning the finer points of the game.
Good for him.
True he'll tell you after he's calmed down (dreaded 13th really gets him) this is how he learns ev ery other armies rules its actually quite instructional.
I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.
He sounds very interested in learning the finer points of the game.
Good for him.
True he'll tell you after he's calmed down (dreaded 13th really gets him) this is how he learns ev ery other armies rules its actually quite instructional.
There is a difference though. Someone who does that and says, " Oh, wow I didn't know that!" is trying to learn. Someone who hands the book back and proclaims" That is such B and your army is broken I hate Mat Ward blah blah blah overpowered blah blah Congress." isn't exactly trying to learn the book.
Now that I think about it, one of the greatest games I've ever had was with Space Marines, and I lost so many men that it was hilarious. I was going against my friend (he uses Dark Eldar), and by the end of the game, we decided to call it a draw. We had both lost so many men that we barely had a single squad left, each. And they were across the board from each other, both sitting on an objective. It was an absolute bloodbath. I was not upset when I lost a space marine, because I expected defeat anyways. But that still goes down as the greatest game I've ever played, not because neither of us one, but because of the sheer carnage we inflicted on each other.
I have a friend who will challenge anything you do if he hasn't heard of it. he will ask you to show him it in your book.
He sounds very interested in learning the finer points of the game.
Good for him.
True he'll tell you after he's calmed down (dreaded 13th really gets him) this is how he learns ev ery other armies rules its actually quite instructional.
There is a difference though. Someone who does that and says, " Oh, wow I didn't know that!" is trying to learn. Someone who hands the book back and proclaims" That is such B and your army is broken I hate Mat Ward blah blah blah overpowered blah blah Congress." isn't exactly trying to learn the book.
There's two guys I play against once in a while that illustrate this point.
One is pretty new to the game, and likes to be on top of things.
Him: 'What's the BS on your Ravager?'
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him : 'Ok, cool. ' - proceeds to remember that they are BS 4 from here on, with occasionally reminders if it's been a while between games.
Other guy...
Him: 'Whats the BS on your Ravager? '
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him: 'That's BS! Everyone knows Eldar are BS 3 standard!'
Me : Shows him codex ' See, BS 4'
Him: 'Gotta be a typo. No way Eldar are as good shots as Space Marines! This is such BS! '
Me: 'Dude, it's 4 all through the codex. CWE have BS 3 units, but DE are base 4. Can we get back to the game? '
Him: (muttering..what bs, SM are better than Eldar ..) 'What AP are those Dark Lances again? Ap 4 right?)
Me: 'AP 2"
Him : Grabs codex and riffles, muttering ' what utter BS!' Xenos shouldn't have AP2! At least it's only S 8, not like my much-better Lascannons, so it's not going to hurt my Awesxome Land raider much.
Me: Explains the Lance rule.
Him: Goes incoherant about how BSOP powerful Xeno armies are compared to SM.
Ascalam wrote: There's two guys I play against once in a while that illustrate this point.
One is pretty new to the game, and likes to be on top of things.
Him: 'What's the BS on your Ravager?'
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him : 'Ok, cool. ' - proceeds to remember that they are BS 4 from here on, with occasionally reminders if it's been a while between games.
Other guy...
Him: 'Whats the BS on your Ravager? '
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him: 'That's BS! Everyone knows Eldar are BS 3 standard!'
Me : Shows him codex ' See, BS 4'
Him: 'Gotta be a typo. No way Eldar are as good shots as Space Marines! This is such BS! '
Me: 'Dude, it's 4 all through the codex. CWE have BS 3 units, but DE are base 4. Can we get back to the game? '
Him: (muttering..what bs, SM are better than Eldar ..) 'What AP are those Dark Lances again? Ap 4 right?)
Me: 'AP 2"
Him : Grabs codex and riffles, muttering ' what utter BS!' Xenos shouldn't have AP2! At least it's only S 8, not like my much-better Lascannons, so it's not going to hurt my Awesxome Land raider much.
Me: Explains the Lance rule.
Him: Goes incoherant about how BSOP powerful Xeno armies are compared to SM.
He should spend less time whining and more time shooting.
There used to be a time where I absolutely hated Dark Eldar, and would hate to go against them in a game. But then I discovered the merits of mechanized veterans.
Ascalam wrote: There's two guys I play against once in a while that illustrate this point.
One is pretty new to the game, and likes to be on top of things.
Him: 'What's the BS on your Ravager?'
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him : 'Ok, cool. ' - proceeds to remember that they are BS 4 from here on, with occasionally reminders if it's been a while between games.
Other guy...
Him: 'Whats the BS on your Ravager? '
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him: 'That's BS! Everyone knows Eldar are BS 3 standard!'
Me : Shows him codex ' See, BS 4'
Him: 'Gotta be a typo. No way Eldar are as good shots as Space Marines! This is such BS! '
Me: 'Dude, it's 4 all through the codex. CWE have BS 3 units, but DE are base 4. Can we get back to the game? '
Him: (muttering..what bs, SM are better than Eldar ..) 'What AP are those Dark Lances again? Ap 4 right?)
Me: 'AP 2"
Him : Grabs codex and riffles, muttering ' what utter BS!' Xenos shouldn't have AP2! At least it's only S 8, not like my much-better Lascannons, so it's not going to hurt my Awesxome Land raider much.
Me: Explains the Lance rule.
Him: Goes incoherant about how BSOP powerful Xeno armies are compared to SM.
He just won't accept any rule that hurts him without arguing it, and will browbeat his opponents into accepting his version of the rules.
Unfortunately (for us both) i tend to wind up opposite him in the league i'm in with a few friends, and he's the BFF for one of my friend's friends, so it's a bit hard to shift him. The rest of the group are awesome to play.
He just won't accept any rule that hurts him without arguing it, and will browbeat his opponents into accepting his version of the rules.
Unfortunately (for us both) i tend to wind up opposite him in the league i'm in with a few friends, and he's the BFF for one of my friend's friends, so it's a bit hard to shift him. The rest of the group are awesome to play.
Well. If he's that bad, just bring the cheesiest list you can and slaughter him.
Since he's going to whine either way, why not make it a good one?
I don't tend to care much about losses, although I'd admit that losing a super-pimped crisis suit is a bitch.
But when an enemy model just deepstrikes in, with some sort of "no serious error even possible" and proceed to kill twice his own cost before I even get a chance to react?
That, right there, pisses me off.
But when an enemy model just deepstrikes in, with some sort of "no serious error even possible" and proceed to kill twice his own cost before I even get a chance to react?
That, right there, pisses me off.
At least that guy is one-per-army guy, who can actually fail with his scatter on the demo charge a bit. annoying, but ultimately not game-braking.
Also, I must admit, some things that hit my by suprise make me go "WHAT!? no way! you can do THAT?" and then proceed to check the codex, bt if the codex confirems, I just focus on removing said unit that took me off balance instead of whining about it.
Whining does not win games. shooting things full of holes and blasting them to narnia does.
I think some people are kind of missing the point here. I'm not talking about just general TFG behavior, I'm talking about a specific kind of bad behavior. That is, a complete misunderstanding of statistics that leads certain players to think that a 3+ armor save is way more effective than it really is, and complain about how unfair it is when they do things like roll ten saves and lose two models.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: You're not able to do that, you have to fire ALL your weapons at the target, if you cannot do that you cannot light something up, so he was somewhat right in his complaint.
Wrong. The rule says that you do it after firing all of your weapons, as in you can't fire one weapon, say "I searchlight", and then fire the rest of your weapons without allowing the cover save for night fighting. There's no requirement that you fire every single weapon on the vehicle or you can't searchlight.
And anyway, my opponent didn't complain about the searchlight, the point is that the unit he whined about because of that nasty AP 2 pie plate that could kill space marines didn't even get to shoot once, it just searchlighted and died without ever firing a pie plate.
Wrong. The rule says that you do it after firing all of your weapons, as in you can't fire one weapon, say "I searchlight", and then fire the rest of your weapons without allowing the cover save for night fighting. There's no requirement that you fire every single weapon on the vehicle or you can't searchlight.
Shooting: Page 12
Check Range Rule:
At least one weapon must be in range of the Target Unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen.
The main issue is you are out of range to shoot in the first place.
It's an illegal action, so it cannot be performed.
Wrong. The rule says that you do it after firing all of your weapons, as in you can't fire one weapon, say "I searchlight", and then fire the rest of your weapons without allowing the cover save for night fighting. There's no requirement that you fire every single weapon on the vehicle or you can't searchlight.
Shooting: Page 12
Check Range Rule:
At least one weapon must be in range of the Target Unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different target must be chosen.
The main issue is you are out of range to shoot in the first place.
It's an illegal action, so it cannot be performed.
Zebio is right. Can't target a unit outside 36", and can't searchlight something you can't target. In nightfight, that is.
Early on when I first started learning the game., I hadn't decided what army to play. A friend told me about SMs, and I decided to go for that. Nobody in the group played them, so it kept a very diverse environment.
I made all the rookie mistakes, taking too few units in favor of heavy weapons, loading up my HQs with wargear, and wasting points on pointless upgrades. I got my ass handed to me more times than I care to recall, and it was frustrating.
Rather than complain, I tried to fix my approach, albeit in a poor way. I looked to the other SM builds. I tried BAs (They sucked under 3.5.) and that failed, as there were way too many random elements bogging them down. I moved on to BTs, which actually worked out fairly well for me. It came down to finding new tactics that worked, and it took both time and a lot of painting to get there. That's what a lot of new players across the board experience.
They get sucked in by the fluff, the exposure of the "tier one" armies, and think that simply running those armies leads to victories. It just takes them time to finally figure out it doesn't work that way.
Take it from one of those people who came up with dumb fluff for his current original chapter, who still likes to name his characters. It's just Eager Rookie Syndrome, and the only cure is experience.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The main issue is you are out of range to shoot in the first place.
I was out of range for the main gun, the one that actually mattered.
I was in range to snap fire the hull heavy bolter at a Land Raider just so I could count as shooting at it and use the searchlight.
Anyway, that part isn't relevant because my opponent didn't complain about the searchlight. I only mentioned it to point out that the LR Demolisher didn't actually kill anything with that "overpowered" pie plate before it was killed.
Kilkrazy wrote: There are more Space Marines players than other codexes, so it stands to reason you would be more likely to meet uncongenial players.
The other point is that Space Marines are often chosen by newcomers to wargaming, who are often younger, and in consequence less aware of odds, etc.
It would be unfair to say that Space Marines attract complainers.
I would agree that it is unfair to generalize all Space Marine players as the group that whines the most. I mean, I play against a Tyranid/Daemon player and when he feels like he isn't going to win he just proclaims that his codex sucks and gives up.
i try never to complain and i'm a die hard BA fan. i just like red. I give my friends the benefit of the doubt 90% of the time, if you say its that way. its that way. its just a game and your not being to paid to play it, why get mad or upset.
yeah, so brother corbulo just took 30 shots and made all of his saves. SO. move on, we've all seen stupid stuff roll out.
Ascalam wrote: There's two guys I play against once in a while that illustrate this point.
One is pretty new to the game, and likes to be on top of things.
Him: 'What's the BS on your Ravager?'
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him : 'Ok, cool. ' - proceeds to remember that they are BS 4 from here on, with occasionally reminders if it's been a while between games.
Other guy...
Him: 'Whats the BS on your Ravager? '
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him: 'That's BS! Everyone knows Eldar are BS 3 standard!'
Me : Shows him codex ' See, BS 4'
Him: 'Gotta be a typo. No way Eldar are as good shots as Space Marines! This is such BS! '
Me: 'Dude, it's 4 all through the codex. CWE have BS 3 units, but DE are base 4. Can we get back to the game? '
Him: (muttering..what bs, SM are better than Eldar ..) 'What AP are those Dark Lances again? Ap 4 right?)
Me: 'AP 2"
Him : Grabs codex and riffles, muttering ' what utter BS!' Xenos shouldn't have AP2! At least it's only S 8, not like my much-better Lascannons, so it's not going to hurt my Awesxome Land raider much.
Me: Explains the Lance rule.
Him: Goes incoherant about how BSOP powerful Xeno armies are compared to SM.
I would love to play against the complaining one... and propably end up driving him completely insane.
You know, as a Space Marine player, I've never had this problem. One of my regular opponents plays Eldar. I know that even though I have good saves his army puts out about a gazillion shots a turn. Some are going to get through. I think there are alot of people who read the fluff about these marines being whirlwinds of destruction, pulling xenos arms off and beating them to death with it and they start playing the game thinking their dudes are going to be borderline invincible like in the fluff. I know there's stuff out there that can wreck my dudes. While having good saves is nice, I'm perfectly aware it's not guaranteed victory.
There's a new guy at my FLGS that brags about how he started playing GK because that was the most powerful codex and he wants to win. Well, he's been getting his ass beaten across the galaxy. He basically just assumed that he could show up with GK and just start tabling people. It's super annoying. His most recent "boo hoo" session was him telling his opponent about how Commander Dante's Death Mask was bs and that his opponent was making it up. Whenever he loses he gets very huffy and just tosses his models around back into their container. It's funny and annoying at the same time.
Ascalam wrote: There's two guys I play against once in a while that illustrate this point.
One is pretty new to the game, and likes to be on top of things.
Him: 'What's the BS on your Ravager?'
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him : 'Ok, cool. ' - proceeds to remember that they are BS 4 from here on, with occasionally reminders if it's been a while between games.
Other guy...
Him: 'Whats the BS on your Ravager? '
Me: "all my DE vehicles are 4, because DEBS is 4 standard, like your SM. '
Him: 'That's BS! Everyone knows Eldar are BS 3 standard!'
Me : Shows him codex ' See, BS 4'
Him: 'Gotta be a typo. No way Eldar are as good shots as Space Marines! This is such BS! '
Me: 'Dude, it's 4 all through the codex. CWE have BS 3 units, but DE are base 4. Can we get back to the game? '
Him: (muttering..what bs, SM are better than Eldar ..) 'What AP are those Dark Lances again? Ap 4 right?)
Me: 'AP 2"
Him : Grabs codex and riffles, muttering ' what utter BS!' Xenos shouldn't have AP2! At least it's only S 8, not like my much-better Lascannons, so it's not going to hurt my Awesxome Land raider much.
Me: Explains the Lance rule.
Him: Goes incoherant about how BSOP powerful Xeno armies are compared to SM.
I would love to play against the complaining one... and propably end up driving him completely insane.
Sorry, but what idiot cries when a model is killed, especially a basic infantry model? And who cries "lasguns are too powerful"? The OP sounds a bit over-the-top himself, I seriously doubt this actually happened.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Sorry, but what idiot cries when a model is killed, especially a basic infantry model? And who cries "lasguns are too powerful"? The OP sounds a bit over-the-top himself, I seriously doubt this actually happened.
Clearly you don't play pickup games.
Or you play in heaven itself.
Socially, wargamers tend to be more...maladjusted than some other demographics. By no means is this a blanket statement that all wargamers have poor social skills, but it seems they can be more prone to it.
During games where they lose, this possibility multiplies.
I don't think I've ever heard something like the OP is describing... when has anyone heard any player claim that a lasgun is over-powered? And anyone who is crying over a troop model dying is a serious mental case.
So I'm not sure the Peregrine is serious or kidding...
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I don't think I've ever heard something like the OP is describing... when has anyone heard any player claim that a lasgun is over-powered? And anyone who is crying over a troop model dying is a serious mental case.
So I'm not sure the Peregrine is serious or kidding...
No one claims lasguns are overpowered. People claim guard rolling 30/40/50, even 145 (max possible in one unit) lasgun shots. That's what brings the tears.
Most weirdest case of a opponent crying OP was against a Necron Player who after the second turn kept saying my Mastery Lv 3 Nurgle sorcerer with Palanquin, Sigil, spell familiar Murder Sword (I know what some of you are thinking but he hid his overlord in the corner of his deployment zone the entire game so didn't get near him) was so OP is wasn't funny just because I got a few lucky saves while the rest of my army was wiped out by just about every Necron gimmick in the book (mind scarabs, large scarab swarms, monoliths, C'tan etc) got Iron arm, endurance and weapon virus.
I lost badly it wasn't funny after which continued complainng how OP it was saying the CSM codex is too OP it is really unfair to players whose codex is not as OP I avoid playing against him now
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I don't think I've ever heard something like the OP is describing... when has anyone heard any player claim that a lasgun is over-powered? And anyone who is crying over a troop model dying is a serious mental case.
So I'm not sure the Peregrine is serious or kidding...
No one claims lasguns are overpowered. People claim guard rolling 30/40/50, even 145 (max possible in one unit) lasgun shots. That's what brings the tears.
so? that's what you get when you play IG. The Necron player in our area never cried when I charged lightning claw Terminators into his warriors. No one cries when my Doom is killing troops just from proximity. It sounds like people need to get a grip or get out of gaming. If it is getting to these guys this much that their units are dying by the advantage of their enemy or the weakness of their own army, a serious supply of prozac may have to be shipped to some game stores.
We all can agree that 40k is a lot better than online games...everyone in here who ever played a MOBA knows what I'm talking about.
There are, however, some really ridiculous guys out there you'd usually avoid...especially at tournaments. Game's going well when the TO decides to have a judge closely following one certain guy because of numerous complains.
Same goes for players you might know...ye know, people who, even before the game, already complain about their army being so weak (GK player...) while yours is so OP (not even one flyer -_-) and they just keep moaning throughout the entire game complaining about every tidbit. Sigh.
Sigvatr wrote: We all can agree that 40k is a lot better than online games...everyone in here who ever played a MOBA knows what I'm talking about.
There are, however, some really ridiculous guys out there you'd usually avoid...especially at tournaments. Game's going well when the TO decides to have a judge closely following one certain guy because of numerous complains.
Same goes for players you might know...ye know, people who, even before the game, already complain about their army being so weak (GK player...) while yours is so OP (not even one flyer -_-) and they just keep moaning throughout the entire game complaining about every tidbit. Sigh.
Forgive my ignorace, but what's a MOBA? (I've NEVER been into online games of any kind.)
As for Marine players being whiney gits. One of the local GK players will only play Warp Quake spam against my Daemons, because apparently Daemons are too OP in Fantasy and deserve to be kicked in the balls at every turn.
You should hear him rant about the WD update now... We only stop crying in mirth once we realise he's actually being serious and thinks Daemons are too powerful because Breath of Chaos is "broken & OP", while he believes that no daemons should have ap2 attacks.
One problem with SMs and statistics, is that each individual action has about a 2/3 chance of being successful. So you can look at a single multimelta shot, or armor save, or what not, and say "I should make this most of the time" Each roll is independent of each other.
But then reality rears its ugly head, and you look at how many dice you chuck in a game, and the overall number of failures. Making the transition from "odds of a single roll" to "statistic probabilities" is not easy to do.
I can only assume that guard and ork players assume they are going to fail all the time, so when they make armor saves, it's gravy. And half or more of every shot that goes downrange is going to miss. They can't assume success, and trust in weight of fire to get results.
It's the mindset difference between hoard and elite armies.
In the back of my mind, I know my MM land speeder is going to miss a third of the time, fail to pen occasionally, and roll crappy results on the damage chart frequently. But when I send it out, I trust that it will kill a tank. But I do tend to take a pessimistic view on dice; I know they are trying to kill me. So I build a few back-up plans into my army list, for when the MM speeder chokes out on the field.
If I was more of an optimist, I might rage against fate. But as a glass-half-empty kinda guy, I just shrug and move on.
I'm flippant about losses, I tend not to focus on individual models (with the exception of my HQ, but rather, focus on how my army overall is doing. I don't go into games thinking that I'll lose half my army or more, I go in thinking, how much damage can I inflict on the enemy. This mind set makes it so easy for me to accept losses. I suppose that's the difference between horde and elite. You care less about the fact that you lost two or three squads that turn.
Forgive my ignorace, but what's a MOBA? (I've NEVER been into online games of any kind.)
MOBA games are games like DotA, League of Legends, Smite, Guardians of Middle-Earth, etc. Highly competitive games and their communities are, simply put, trash. Everyone thinks he's god tier, everyone always blames his team / bad luck etc., extremely foul language...it's really, really bad. Imagine the worst guy you know. Imagine him having a bad day. Take that x10.
Hey, now THATS generalization! I play LoL, and so does alot of people I know and the vast majority of us are fully aware that we are medicore players at best.
Bad teams DO happen and it IS frustrating, but trash-talks and foul language gets you banned really, really quick.
On the flip side, good teams where you go like "well, I could have been AFK all game long and we would have still won" happen as well. and are also annoying as you feel useless.
Its just that the matchmaker makes mistakes sometimes and pair people who should not be playing with each other. a "good game" is where all players on both teams are around the same skill level, and that's what usually happens-then everyone have a good time whether they win or lose.
In my group, there is a vanilla, BA, SW, DA,GK.... and aside from the GK (who realises his dudes are just expensive tactical marines w/ power weapons) they all go into rage mode when my pod of devilgants comes in and kills a tactical squad. Then says nothing when they all get wiped in a single shooting phase from the tac squad next to them. As a tyranid player, I usually don't get to take my armor saves, normally because 6+ armor vs boltguns, or missiles/lascannons vs MC. The only real vindication comes when the 5 strong TWC unit charge 10 termagants, make 15 hits (12 regular/ 2rending) only to kill 2 gants .
I started off playing Tau in 5th and I think I used to be that guy.
I started with very few suits because there were rumors abound about Tau getting updated soon and my friends at the FLGS were fans of the bigger games. This would always end up with my enemy having more missile launchers than I had suits. So every time my few elites or HQs failed their cover save I'd have to remove an entire expensive model that also had my only real anti-MEQ firepower. My most common opponent also played BA with a DS unit led by Dante that would just destroy my army when it hit. The guy always ended up making every save/fnp no matter how much firepower I poured into his units. I never raged enough to go flipping tables, but it quickly made games not fun very quickly.
As I got more and more suits and experience I haven't freaked out from losing a suit or even entire unit. Though losing one does end up in me losing a lot of firepower.
I haven't really seen anybody get upset about losing models lately. I've taken down plenty of expensive models in overwatch and even taken down a lot of units in CC with crisis suits and firewarriors. I've lost plenty of suits to dangerous terrain checks lately. We've always been able to just laugh it off.
I think that Space Marine players (or any quality over quantity army) have this problem the most. However, it also happens with IG, Ork, and Tyranid players. It's especially hilarious when it happens with the latter, since it doesn't matter with their armies. I think it mostly comes from inexperience.
When I first started using power armor units, I was very impressed with how survivable they were, but I didn't expect them to be unkillable. I actually found it OP when I first started that the save for every model in an army would be 3+. I've since found that it isn't a problem. I also did have the prior experience of using models with 5+ and occasionally 4+ saves.
I think the reason why people rage about losing models is because they see it as a sign of losing, and if they lack experience, they don't have any other plan to try to win if one of their plans gets ruined because something got destroyed.
Yeah I used to get annoyed when the marines started falling but hey, I was 8 so I'd get rage regardless of how I was losing. Now after playing orks for ages I'm more like... I get to make a save? What sorcery is this!
I only become emotional when I've run out of Crypteks for Trazyn to inhabit. I also won't lie, I play warhammer while I drink....so that could contribute.
As a foot guard player I'm used to my models dying. It used to confused my friends (Blood Angels, Space Wolves x2 and Eldar) when instead of wincing when I lost 10 or more men in an assault, I shrugged it off like it was nothing. After a while they finally realized it literally was nothing to me other then 50pts.
I encountered this kind of player at my local GW. I was playing Space Marines and he was playing IG. This kid cried when my devastator squad took out his Leman Russ + chimera veteran squad in 2 turns. He's also a spoiled brat as well making his mum buy him something every time she comes to pick him up.
BoomWolf wrote: Hey, now THATS generalization! I play LoL, and so does alot of people I know and the vast majority of us are fully aware that we are medicore players at best.
Bad teams DO happen and it IS frustrating, but trash-talks and foul language gets you banned really, really quick.
On the flip side, good teams where you go like "well, I could have been AFK all game long and we would have still won" happen as well. and are also annoying as you feel useless.
Its just that the matchmaker makes mistakes sometimes and pair people who should not be playing with each other. a "good game" is where all players on both teams are around the same skill level, and that's what usually happens-then everyone have a good time whether they win or lose.
Of course it's a generalization
LoL truly has the upper hand though and it's the reason why after 2 years, I come back to LoL. Riot does a really good job at trying to keep things civil while Valve keeps driving the train right into the wall...Valve is unwilling to work on fundamental problems such as the Russian problem, no surrender option and terrible manners while letting the game stagnate. still, there are a lot of really terrible players in LoL too. Mostly youngsters.
Peregrine wrote: One of the most annoying player types I've encountered is TFG who complains every single time they lose a model. Tactical squad rolled ten saves and failed two? WHY CAN'T MY POWER ARMOR WORK. Lasguns rolled below average and killed a single model? LASGUNS ARE OVERPOWERED. You took plasma guns and killed something with them? STOP BEING TFG AND PLASMA SPAMMING. Killed a Land Raider? MELTA IS OP, STOP BEING TFG. No matter if you rolled average, or even below average, any outcome in which a space marine dies is automatically unfair. And needless to say this completely ruins the game, to the point where you have to start seriously considering not shooting anymore just to get them to shut up.
So, the question to the rest of you: is there something about having 2+/3+ armor saves that makes you expect that all of your stuff should never die? Are IG/Ork/etc players forced to learn how to handle losses or ragequit and disappear from the community faster? Or is it just coincidence that the examples that I've encountered have both been marine players?
What I have found is that many Space Marine players discount as useless any specialized melee unit that cannot one shot a terminator regularly. Of course this means that just about EVERY melee unit in the game is useless by their definition. No one cries louder than Space Marine players, though, when a melee unit actually *can* do that, because, yes, they think their terminators should never die.
That said I've not seen space marine players be the only ones who rage quite. Oddly one of my regular opponents HATES the level of ability of his Imperial Guard, but at the same time he loves them and will never even consider playing anything else on the table. Hahahahahaha
Skriker
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GhostKnight31 wrote: Most weirdest case of a opponent crying OP was against a Necron Player who after the second turn kept saying my Mastery Lv 3 Nurgle sorcerer with Palanquin, Sigil, spell familiar Murder Sword (I know what some of you are thinking but he hid his overlord in the corner of his deployment zone the entire game so didn't get near him) was so OP is wasn't funny just because I got a few lucky saves while the rest of my army was wiped out by just about every Necron gimmick in the book (mind scarabs, large scarab swarms, monoliths, C'tan etc) got Iron arm, endurance and weapon virus.
I lost badly it wasn't funny after which continued complainng how OP it was saying the CSM codex is too OP it is really unfair to players whose codex is not as OP I avoid playing against him now
That is rich! A necron playing complaining that someone else's codex is overpowered, ESPECIALLY after it sounds like he wiped out your entire army with little difficulty except for that one Nurgle sorcerer...ummm...yeah...some people really just need a good dose of perspective, preferably wrapped around a large baseball bat.
I used to have a friend that has moved recently and he played Eldar but the crappy thing about playing against him was that whenever I destroyed a wave serpent of wiped a squad he would pitch a major tantrum in the middle of our FLGS it was quite embarrassing.
So it is not just a SM player thing it is a crybaby whiner thing regardless of army played.
One of my normal opponents plays GK and will normally just stand there and look at his models that fail saves. I think he's letting the death of his expensive units sink in. I fully expect to see a single tear roll down his cheek as I look at him looking at his models.
I play ork so I have a big smile on my face as I shovel off my dead boyz. It just so fun!
I never tend to care about lost models unless it's just ridiculous or I lose a whole squad. Even then I tend to just laugh it off.
Two examples:
-The very first time I used a librarian with my Raven Guard army, he got perils on one power and failed the other. Starting off strong!
-Whenever I play with my green tide, if I can't get one of the boys to stay standing I just say that his friends killed him. I have 120 boys to replace him haha.
I know whenever I shoot 8 missile launchers at a rhino to only shake , while my opponent explodes my predator, and two rhinos with 8 autocannons. It can Set me on edge. I don't think I ever get whiney, but maybe a little bit to observant of when I fail more saves than I should have. Really I think its because you remember what you failed and not when you killed all 5 termites with a tac squad
rabid1903 wrote: I never tend to care about lost models unless it's just ridiculous or I lose a whole squad. Even then I tend to just laugh it off.
Two examples:
-The very first time I used a librarian with my Raven Guard army, he got perils on one power and failed the other. Starting off strong!
I got over losses back during 2nd edition Space Marine. In a 6000point a side game we had no less than 4 sets of 3 cannon of khorne each. For those not in the know cannon of khorne had a randomly rolled strength with a 1 in 6 chance of misfiring and blowing themselves up. On our first turn our side proceeded to fire with all 4 units in series. At the end of rolling for the last unit there were 3 cannon left out of the initial 12 and we hadn't destroyed or even hit anything other than our own 9 cannon. The whole room laughed for about 20 minutes straight on that one. After that, though, nothing else ever came close to the insanity so I never got bugged by losses again.
rabid1903 wrote: I never tend to care about lost models unless it's just ridiculous or I lose a whole squad. Even then I tend to just laugh it off.
Two examples:
-The very first time I used a librarian with my Raven Guard army, he got perils on one power and failed the other. Starting off strong!
I got over losses back during 2nd edition Space Marine. In a 6000point a side game we had no less than 4 sets of 3 cannon of khorne each. For those not in the know cannon of khorne had a randomly rolled strength with a 1 in 6 chance of misfiring and blowing themselves up. On our first turn our side proceeded to fire with all 4 units in series. At the end of rolling for the last unit there were 3 cannon left out of the initial 12 and we hadn't destroyed or even hit anything other than our own 9 cannon. The whole room laughed for about 20 minutes straight on that one. After that, though, nothing else ever came close to the insanity so I never got bugged by losses again.
Skriker
Oh god that just reminded me of the the last Apoc game I played in. It was 7500 points a side and I got to bring out my shiny Dominatrix. My friend took a vortex grenade as a strategic asset, because he just thought they were hilarious. He runs out with some lone guy in the face of the full health-wound regenerating Dominatrix and chucks the nade. It then proceeds to chase the Dominatrix for the next two movement phases, scattering 11" to keep up with her. Needless to say, she got a single round of shooting off before my 1750 point centerpiece was sucked into a mini black hole. Best part is the vortex grenade vanished after that.
Oh god that just reminded me of the the last Apoc game I played in. It was 7500 points a side and I got to bring out my shiny Dominatrix. My friend took a vortex grenade as a strategic asset, because he just thought they were hilarious. He runs out with some lone guy in the face of the full health-wound regenerating Dominatrix and chucks the nade. It then proceeds to chase the Dominatrix for the next two movement phases, scattering 11" to keep up with her. Needless to say, she got a single round of shooting off before my 1750 point centerpiece was sucked into a mini black hole. Best part is the vortex grenade vanished after that.
Talk about efficiency haha.
That is the funniest fetching thing I've ever read in my entire life, even beating the Leman Russ comment "It's perfect for Space Wolves. Clunky, badly designed, and it still manages to wreck face."
Oh god that just reminded me of the the last Apoc game I played in. It was 7500 points a side and I got to bring out my shiny Dominatrix. My friend took a vortex grenade as a strategic asset, because he just thought they were hilarious. He runs out with some lone guy in the face of the full health-wound regenerating Dominatrix and chucks the nade. It then proceeds to chase the Dominatrix for the next two movement phases, scattering 11" to keep up with her. Needless to say, she got a single round of shooting off before my 1750 point centerpiece was sucked into a mini black hole. Best part is the vortex grenade vanished after that.
Talk about efficiency haha.
That is the funniest fetching thing I've ever read in my entire life, even beating the Leman Russ comment "It's perfect for Space Wolves. Clunky, badly designed, and it still manages to wreck face."
played a blood angle player like that put all his models with full up grades in his flyer when i shoot it down across impassable terrain (that he set up) it was an unfair game tile his drop pods dropped in and destroyer every thing i had. tho i suppose ive been that guy a few times seeing as i play tau i might complain a bit when a marine player starts cheering every time he kills one of my models just erk's me to no end.
It's poor sportsmanship. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that Space Marine players are on average younger and newer to the hobby than people who play other armies; growing out of blaming defeats on other people out to get you instead of acknowledging your own mistakes or poor fortune is part of growing up.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I don't think I've ever heard something like the OP is describing... when has anyone heard any player claim that a lasgun is over-powered? And anyone who is crying over a troop model dying is a serious mental case.
So I'm not sure the Peregrine is serious or kidding...
No one claims lasguns are overpowered. People claim guard rolling 30/40/50, even 145 (max possible in one unit) lasgun shots. That's what brings the tears.
so? that's what you get when you play IG. The Necron player in our area never cried when I charged lightning claw Terminators into his warriors. No one cries when my Doom is killing troops just from proximity. It sounds like people need to get a grip or get out of gaming. If it is getting to these guys this much that their units are dying by the advantage of their enemy or the weakness of their own army, a serious supply of prozac may have to be shipped to some game stores.
Seriously, people, this is a game...
I have actually stopped using the Doom of Malantai against my friends in our games. Was causing my eldar playing friend to teeter on the edge of madness.
I know players of all armies that complain about things not just in 40k but in Fantasy as well.
For me I will admit I sometimes will be TFG depending on what happens.
My best example is that in 5th Ed I had just started using IG and my friend who mainly plays Fantasy decides to join us in 40k (he is a WAAC kind of guy, who will cheese up lists as much as possible) and he picks Vanilla SM. Pretty much whole army of as much Str8-10 and Ap 1-2 He could get in it. He gets the first turn and blows up all 3 of my Leman Russes leaving me with about 40 guys and a command squad then goes to kill half of that. Start of my turn 1 I had about 20 guys so I just packed up and quit. It was just a sad game for me and normally it's not like that.
But I also know a few guys who do nothing but complain no matter what and they ruin the fun of the game. They will get mad even when they are winning and just bitch about pretty much everything you could think of.
"Oh you are empire with a bunch of warmachines, that's so BS," says the guy who plays Dark Elves with large blocks of crossbowmen (who out range half my stuff and shoot me dead before i even get a turn).
"Your 5 man IG command squad just killed a group of Terminators in melee even though you have no special melee weapons," complains the guy who runs nothing but terminators.
I've also had my fair share of bad dice rolls as statistically I roll a 1-2 as my average so I chalk most of my stuff up to just not being lucky with dice rolls. It can be tough after awhile though when i toss out 60 dice and do 0 wounds then they toss out 10 dice and deal 9 wounds
i do find that sm players in general take more heart into the army because the fluff is that much stronger. never will you find a ork player naming his boyz, maybe his nobz but very rarely. I do find that when i sho up to a game as a ork player i expect 80% or more losses. marines walk in expecting 10% on the average super fluffy marine.
I had the fun game of playing one marine player - blood angels when the dex came out, running a assult marine list with all the fixings. Against my slugga thrakka list. I rolled very well, and managed to get the charges on him, tabling him with only 6 ork boyz lost. He was so mad he left the store, didnt come back for 3 months, and when he did come back - he had orks. that army made him humble when he returned to power armor.
I also find that guard players tend to get very upset when important units vanish. At least my roomie does as he likes to say: "I really dont want just put my guard on the table just to pick them back up in the box" i simply say - have you tried foot orks?
Y'know whats really bad? When you have tau rapid fire into the side armor of a Predator, and glance it to death.
I have done that, and they do not like it.
To the above poster, I play both IG and orks. It is frustrating to play the guys who only play marines who build a specific list just to neat you. Nothing like watching WAACSM guy drop a pod of stern guard with heavy flamers and Melta to light up your tanks and watch you soldiers burn. Then, the ironclad comes down and torches up a squad. What am I getting at? Most sm players Taylor a list. My basic list for either army I have is the same from game to game.
It is funny to drop a few terminators to snap fire (rapid fire LASGUNS from a blob squad 30 strong) and then he fails to reach his charge distance. Priceless it was. Only to watch the remaining termis fail after FRFSRF. What was his reinsert? LASGUNS and orders are over powered. Not his 2+/3+ storm shield mobile tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is even better when you hear the whinny SM layer brag about how good he is of a player. Then I offer him to play as guard or orks, letting him use my armies, always a somewhat polite decline. Most SM only players wouldn't know what to do without their power armor.
martin74 wrote: To the above poster, I play both IG and orks. It is frustrating to play the guys who only play marines who build a specific list just to neat you. Nothing like watching WAACSM guy drop a pod of stern guard with heavy flamers and Melta to light up your tanks and watch you soldiers burn. Then, the ironclad comes down and torches up a squad. What am I getting at? Most sm players Taylor a list. My basic list for either army I have is the same from game to game.
It is funny to drop a few terminators to snap fire (rapid fire LASGUNS from a blob squad 30 strong) and then he fails to reach his charge distance. Priceless it was. Only to watch the remaining termis fail after FRFSRF. What was his reinsert? LASGUNS and orders are over powered. Not his 2+/3+ storm shield mobile tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is even better when you hear the whinny SM layer brag about how good he is of a player. Then I offer him to play as guard or orks, letting him use my armies, always a somewhat polite decline. Most SM only players wouldn't know what to do without their power armor.
Post full of vitriol about how all SM players whine, while simultaneously claiming that all SM players are idiots that only win because their stuff is OP. 7/10.
martin74 wrote: To the above poster, I play both IG and orks. It is frustrating to play the guys who only play marines who build a specific list just to neat you. Nothing like watching WAACSM guy drop a pod of stern guard with heavy flamers and Melta to light up your tanks and watch you soldiers burn. Then, the ironclad comes down and torches up a squad. What am I getting at? Most sm players Taylor a list. My basic list for either army I have is the same from game to game.
It is funny to drop a few terminators to snap fire (rapid fire LASGUNS from a blob squad 30 strong) and then he fails to reach his charge distance. Priceless it was. Only to watch the remaining termis fail after FRFSRF. What was his reinsert? LASGUNS and orders are over powered. Not his 2+/3+ storm shield mobile tanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is even better when you hear the whinny SM layer brag about how good he is of a player. Then I offer him to play as guard or orks, letting him use my armies, always a somewhat polite decline. Most SM only players wouldn't know what to do without their power armor.
Hah. Except C:SM is a mediocre codex at best.
If you're facing tailors, don't tell people what list you're using.
If you're facing whiny players, don't play them.
If you're making sweeping generalizations like "most SM players tailor", and "SM players are whiners" you're being silly.
Also; saying "Sm players would be lost without Power Armor" is like saying Necrons would be lost without reanimation protocol. Probably not, but it's a big factor that makes the codex work how it does. Won't ever change.
I play all my games as fluffy as possible. I play Raven Guard and it doesn't matter what my opponent is bringing to the table, I'll stick to my fluffy list. Sure, it has a balance of heavy weapons to bring down vehicles and so on, but generally I have it all tailored to me.
As for me personally, I love it when a model in my army is destroyed or killed. If a couple of marines in my tac squad or an entire squad are wiped out, that should motivate my other marines to hit back twice as hard. It may sound like I get too involved but it keeps me motivated. If I get tabled, then screw it, I was outclassed. My guys will be avenged next time. I always play games like that, especially RPG's.
I'm playing a 40KRPG at the minute and every time one of my guys dies, I don't cry about it, I go with it, I enjoy having that sense of loss from a character I may have spent a few games building up. I love having tragedy in my games. It's what adds to the story of it all.
My best friend however plays Chaos Marines and honestly, he is one of those people that always blames everything except chance. The game is based on tactics and lucky rolls. He can rarely get his head around that, even in computer games he always blames hacks over another persons skill. I usually tell him that if he's not going to deal with it better, I'll quit and he usually shuts up and starts enjoying himself then, but I can't imagine another randomer being quite so willing to play a game with him.
I play mech vet guard at the moment, and I'll admit that each casualty I take stings. However, playing green tide Orks when I started in 2001, has gotten me used to stripping casualties away, so I usually hold my tongue and get on with it when a vet squad or a russ bites the dust.
People buy in to the dung BL, Sm fluff etc shovels that one SM can destroy/purge a world just by breathing, then get butthurt when their 'indestructible' SM's bite it.
Thats EXACTLY my problem. My friend plays black templars and has read the BT novels... And every time my ork kills something of his its 'but in the books a single marine can kill an whole ork horde, wtf' ... Every single flapping time.
People buy in to the dung BL, Sm fluff etc shovels that one SM can destroy/purge a world just by breathing, then get butthurt when their 'indestructible' SM's bite it.
Thats EXACTLY my problem. My friend plays black templars and has read the BT novels... And every time my ork kills something of his its 'but in the books a single marine can kill an whole ork horde, wtf' ... Every single flapping time.
My brother does the same thing at times, especially with our little kill team games. we use house rules where we dont have any unit restrictions just points. he was feeling cocky one time so he brings in one terminator squad. first squad of elysians on the board kills them (no clue why i got lucky that time, never been that lucky with any other army). he whined about that no on end.
Though seriously im with him. WTF, how could i get that lucky? (i usually fail everything a 1/4 hit is a better then average roll for me on a 4+).
Some people do have problems... Ruins the game :I I am a SM player aswell. The thing is, players of Tau, Eldar, Nids, Orks, IG etc. all are 'body of corpses' type of armies, while Space Marines don't die in fluff. But it would be unfair to just have SM players to have 'a squad of 4 SMs' adding a Tactical, Devastator, Assault, and maybe a captain or something. People need to accept the fact that they need to make it even, budget wise too. Pretty much telling the world 'buy 3 space marines for 100 bucks while every other army pays thousands'. Those players should just stick to DOW mods like Movie Marines for DC and SW or DOWII with Brothers of the Fourth.
I played a 2v2 with My Orks (I decided to try a biker army for this game) + A Friend's Foot-IG (We filled the deployment!) vs. Vanilla Marines and Tau.
Through the whole game, I heard comments about how stupid/broken 40k is, including:
2" Coherency is dumb! It should be 1"!
(The IG Lascannons blew up a small bunker that had a really expensive devastator squad in it, killing them all).
The response: Ugh! The building rules are stupid!
Bike warfare is stupid and doesn't make sense in the 41st millenium!
My Land Raider Redeemer ignores the cover on your Warbikes! They'll be dead in know time! (1 Bike squad shot and assaulted 2 tac squads to death while a single biker nob attempted to break the LRR, but failed. The nob then proceeded to survive 1 of its flamers, its multi-melta, a combi-melta shot from an SM commander, and then finally died from an assault by 4 LC terminators (2 of which died with the nob). Then I had to hear about how great his terminators were for killing the Nob...
His Stormtalon comes in, and has to use everything it has to blow up my Dakkajet. I then have to listen to the math about how the Stormtalon is SOOOO much better than my flyer. This is followed by a mini-lecture on how flyers don't belong in 40k.
The worst example I have had to face was recently and thankfully the guy is not a regular so I probably wont be seeing him anytime soon, probably the next tournament which is later this month! :
-He ran Space Wolves (easily one of if not the most popular army at my FLGS besides Necrons now that 6th is out) against my Elysian IG using the Imperial Armor 8 rules (I asked him before the game and he said it was okay that I did).
-He had the standard Thunderwolf Cav spam backed up by Grey Hunters in Rhinos all rushing towards me, every single one was kitted out with storm shields and either plasma guns or some sort of nasty CC weapon. (Will be honest, the only thing about SM's in general I have any complaint about is Storm Shields, should be much more pricy to get then they are but thats just IMOP). He also had two packs of Long fangs with Missile Launchers.
-I run them as pure Vets with x3 plasma guns and grenadiers (Vets so I have to buy less of them since FW models are insanely expensive, x3 Plasma guns because they are the all around best weapon in regards to fighting infantry and vehicles and Grenadiers to fit the fluff of my army). I state that to show that I am not doing it to be a cheese, tailoring my list kind of player, I run the same thing everytime to fit my armies fluff.
-Thanks to my deepstrike rules that my infantry and drop sentinels get from the book my Plasma vets as well as Drop Sentinels (w/ Multi Meltas) were able to destroy his rhinos and do alot of damage to his Grey Hunters. His Thundercav block was being a tough nut to crack and his Long Fangs made mincemeat of my Drop Sentinels.
-Thats when my Flyers came in in the form of x2 Vendetta Gunships and x2 Vulture Gunships with a TL Punisher Cannon each (I lose all tanks for the Vultures). Needless to say I was able to take down his his Thunderwolf Cav very fast and my drop vets took out his long fangs giving me the win (I still lost both Vendettas and a Vulture).
-After the game he lost it, ranting about how Forgeworld is OP (its not), How Imperial Guard should not be allowed to deepstrike anyone, Vulture Gunships were cheese (I pay a little more points for a Flyer and lose all the treaded vehicles in the standard IG codex, they are not cheese) and that Sentinels should never be allowed Multi-Meltas as they are a Space Marine weapon only. He then went on to say that I tailored (which other players in the store defended me and said I hadnt), and then stated at least he played an army that actually took SKILL to play as .
Now I do have to say I have come across a higher concentration of players like this who play a power armor army, however that doesnt mean that they all do and by no means they are all the worst (that honor belongs to a Dark Eldar player who said my Chaos Space Marine Thousand Son army was cheese when they had their old book!) I feel that alot of it is because they are Space Marines which are an easy army to get into and it attracts alot of new and younger players into the game. Also along with that I feel that GW catering to them as much as they do may give the wrong message to some in the form of some entightlement that they should win because they are Space Marines.
gmaleron wrote: The worst example I have had to face was recently and thankfully the guy is not a regular so I probably wont be seeing him anytime soon, probably the next tournament which is later this month! :
-He ran Space Wolves (easily one of if not the most popular army at my FLGS besides Necrons now that 6th is out) against my Elysian IG using the Imperial Armor 8 rules (I asked him before the game and he said it was okay that I did).
-He had the standard Thunderwolf Cav spam backed up by Grey Hunters in Rhinos all rushing towards me, every single one was kitted out with storm shields and either plasma guns or some sort of nasty CC weapon. (Will be honest, the only thing about SM's in general I have any complaint about is Storm Shields, should be much more pricy to get then they are but thats just IMOP). He also had two packs of Long fangs with Missile Launchers.
-I run them as pure Vets with x3 plasma guns and grenadiers (Vets so I have to buy less of them since FW models are insanely expensive, x3 Plasma guns because they are the all around best weapon in regards to fighting infantry and vehicles and Grenadiers to fit the fluff of my army). I state that to show that I am not doing it to be a cheese, tailoring my list kind of player, I run the same thing everytime to fit my armies fluff.
-Thanks to my deepstrike rules that my infantry and drop sentinels get from the book my Plasma vets as well as Drop Sentinels (w/ Multi Meltas) were able to destroy his rhinos and do alot of damage to his Grey Hunters. His Thundercav block was being a tough nut to crack and his Long Fangs made mincemeat of my Drop Sentinels.
-Thats when my Flyers came in in the form of x2 Vendetta Gunships and x2 Vulture Gunships with a TL Punisher Cannon each (I lose all tanks for the Vultures). Needless to say I was able to take down his his Thunderwolf Cav very fast and my drop vets took out his long fangs giving me the win (I still lost both Vendettas and a Vulture).
-After the game he lost it, ranting about how Forgeworld is OP (its not), How Imperial Guard should not be allowed to deepstrike anyone, Vulture Gunships were cheese (I pay a little more points for a Flyer and lose all the treaded vehicles in the standard IG codex, they are not cheese) and that Sentinels should never be allowed Multi-Meltas as they are a Space Marine weapon only. He then went on to say that I tailored (which other players in the store defended me and said I hadnt), and then stated at least he played an army that actually took SKILL to play as .
Now I do have to say I have come across a higher concentration of players like this who play a power armor army, however that doesnt mean that they all do and by no means they are all the worst (that honor belongs to a Dark Eldar player who said my Chaos Space Marine Thousand Son army was cheese when they had their old book!) I feel that alot of it is because they are Space Marines which are an easy army to get into and it attracts alot of new and younger players into the game. Also along with that I feel that GW catering to them as much as they do may give the wrong message to some in the form of some entightlement that they should win because they are Space Marines.
On the bright side, you have the support of your fellow gamers in your defense against TFG. Though, I personally would have gone off on him and present fluffy reasons why the IG get MM (because they are a HUMAN weapon) and get deep striking, as well as give him the FW rules to educate himself. The last part won't do much good, probably, given how humans like that are (I've done a small study on people like that using my fellow students at my school as my sample), but it would make me feel better.
Some of my favorite moments in gaming are when things are going catastrophically. But I have to be in the right mood for it.
I like the pointless slaughter where no one really gains any ground, they just keep throwing their forces into the grinder. Like a Starcraft game I played with my brother on a map with virtually unlimited resources. We eventually decided to send just masses and masses of our basic melee units at each other, after we discovered that the Protoss "artillery" were easily capable of massacring anything the Zerg could send at them on land. The game lasted three hours before we got disconnected from the LAN. 10,000 dead Zerg. 2,000 dead Protoss. Neither of us was able to advance very far - the line of scrimmage moved up and down the map between our bases throughout the whole game.
It was the most awesome game of Starcraft I've ever played.
If it was a completely one-sided fight, I wouldn't enjoy that kind of slaughter so much. But I very much enjoy it when both sides are getting slaughtered and are unable to finish it.
Reading my own thoughts here makes me wonder why I don't enjoy playing Imperial Guard more...
Also, came across this comic years ago, was looking for it to post it here. ^^