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Post by: Tomten
I have a problem to figure out which is the most versatile Leman Russ.
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Post by: chrisjuuuh
for versatility, its very hard to beat the standard LRBT with the battle canon. it kills anthing bar terminators, can put hurt on vehicles with strength eight ordenance and with a huge rang can do this from anywhere on the board. The new rules have hurt it by making sponsons snapshot if fired with the main gun....but it is still very good.
other good variants are the Demolisher, Executioner and i feel that these days a Punisher with 3 heavy bolters can also lay down a lot of hurt. But these variants are a lot more specialized and i dont think they will give you an as good a allround performance as the standard battle tank.
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Post by: Tomten
Why would you take a Punisher? Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing i know is that I dont like to face LRBTs
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Post by: seanm222
LRBT I would say. Cheap, scary, dishes out a lot of punishment, and a pain in the ass to deal with.
2nd to that I like to bring the Executioner, 3-5 plasma cannon blasts is nothing to sniff at. Pretty much anything it shoots at will disappear. However the large amounts of points it takes to bring it, means you should build a list around it, instead of slapping it on last.
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Post by: Tomten
Does anyone use demolishers?
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Post by: Grey Templar
They arn't exactly versitile, almost exclusivly because of the 24" range.
If it was 36" you would see them taken all the time.
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Post by: Tomten
Still its a S10 Ap2 Large blast
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Post by: Ailaros
The most versatile russ loadout is a punisher with a hull lascannon and sponsons multimeltas.
Heavy vehicles are handled by the hull weapons, while light vehicles, terminators, monstrous creatures and marines are handled by the hull weapons and turret combined, while hordes are brutally thinned by 20 S5 shots per turn from the main gun.
It's also good against fliers, what with the sheer volume of fire, and you've also got a roughly 50-50 shot of one of the hull weapons hitting. Given that they all have good Ap and good strength (especially within melta range), you've got a decent chance of downing even the heavier fliers.
There's nothing that this loadout can't handle, making it the most versatile.
Following behind this is probably the eradicator with the same hull loadout (isn't as good against light vehicles or fliers, but better against infantry) followed by the exterminator with the same hull loadout (not as good against infantry).
As for the LRBT, don't bother. It can't shoot fliers at all, doesn't have the volume of fire for light vehicles or monstrous creatures, and doesn't have the Ap for heavier vehicles or terminators. In order to be versatile it has to be GOOD against a bunch of different things in my book, and the battlecannon suffers from being pretty crappy against most of the stuff it targets. Think of it as the grenade launcher of the russ world.
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Post by: Tomten
you kill terminators and tanks with it.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Before GW changed Lumbering Behemoth to "Heavy", I'd have said the bog standard LRBT.
Now however, since that change now effectively means that secondary weaponry is always firing snapshops and Plasma Cannon sponsons can't fire in conjunction with the main gun. The Demolisher also suffers painfully as a result of this change.
Personally, in 6th, I'm liking the Exterminator sporting a Lascannon and dual Heavy Bolters. Not cheap but neither is it overly expensive, can present a threat to anything, can move and fire to full effect, and with the advent of HP's (and the fact that the hydra, which otherwise fills a similar role, lacks interceptor and thus is oddly bad at it's secondary fluff role of engaging infantry and light ground vehicles) makes it a mean light vehicle/medium tank hunter and infantry killer with enough shots to make MC's feel the hurt as well.
With regards to other configurations, the basic LRBT is still useful if taken naked. The Vanquisher is even less relevant in 6th with the advent of Hull Points. Punishers are still too expensive for what they do especially after you start sinking points into them. Eradicators...I'd like to think they have a place, but killing non-MEQ infantry isn't something IG need a 165pt+ battle tank for. Demolishers are probably hurt the worst by the Lumbering-Heavy change which really discourages their use this edition. Executioners aren't awful but are *VERY* expensive and can now hurt themselves with Gets Hot!
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Post by: Tomten
gets hot a 1 then you roll again then maybe you lose a hullpoint.
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Post by: WhiteWolf01
LRBTs are an interesting breed. I would say they really shine when taken in combination to off-set one another's weaknesses. That said I would take both the Demolisher and Punisher as my tanks to cover most of my bases. I generally like to run a basic bolter-boat punisher, which just loads up the wounds on infantry or chews through AV10 and sometimes 11. The demolisher is nice as it can focus on either armor or TEQs which is where the demolisher and punisher overlap you could say (the TEQs that is).
Depending on what you are facing, the exterminator could be handy too. 4 TL autocannon shots aren't the greatest against larger squads of infantry but against some mech lists I find it handy. Throw on plasma cannon sponsons and it can handle the squads of larger infantry. It's a weird combination, but against eldar, orks, and guard, I've found it works pretty well.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Even with the Heavy Rule, I prefer LRBT and Demolishers. You're also saving some points since you don't want to take any sponsons. Executioners are pretty brutal too. Of course, none of these are good vs flyers, but you shouldn't be worried about that - chances are you have 2+ Vendettas in your list anyway.
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Post by: Tomten
Why do you take punishers?
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Post by: creeping-deth87
Honestly the main battle tank never lets me down. Amazing range, doubles out T4 for instant death and feel no pain denial, has AP 3, and is decent at handling AV 12 because it's ordnance. Can't go wrong with it.
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Post by: Tomten
But the problem with the LRBT is that you have to shoot your other weapons as snapshoots.
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Post by: creeping-deth87
Tomten wrote:But the problem with the LRBT is that you have to shoot your other weapons as snapshoots.
That's why you don't throw sponsons on it. Keep'em cheap. If you're looking for the shootiest tank then you asked the wrong question with your thread title.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Tomten wrote:But the problem with the LRBT is that you have to shoot your other weapons as snapshoots.
Good thing those other weapons are optional then.
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Post by: Tomten
creeping-deth87 wrote: Tomten wrote:But the problem with the LRBT is that you have to shoot your other weapons as snapshoots.
That's why you don't throw sponsons on it. Keep'em cheap. If you're looking for the shootiest tank then you asked the wrong question with your thread title.
If you suffer a weappon destroyed then yor battlecannon is gone.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Tomten wrote: creeping-deth87 wrote: Tomten wrote:But the problem with the LRBT is that you have to shoot your other weapons as snapshoots.
That's why you don't throw sponsons on it. Keep'em cheap. If you're looking for the shootiest tank then you asked the wrong question with your thread title.
If you suffer a weappon destroyed then yor battlecannon is gone.
50% of the time - you still have the hull weapon.
Also, if you're worried about a single damage result (16% chance) on the chart on an AV14 vehicle (which can only be penned 33% of the time by the best gun in the game with comparable range) then I fear for your sanity.
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Post by: Tomten
its nice to have additional weapons
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Post by: Corollax
Ailaros wrote:A Punisher with hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas is... good against fliers, what with the sheer volume of fire.
...Alright, I'll humor you. Let's do some math and see what this 225 point vehicle can do. I'll assume we're hitting on front or side armor and I'll even assume you can get those pathetic 24" turrets into range with the 6" movement available to you.
Let's start with a vendetta, what is considered the premier flier in vanilla 6th edition 40k. Your main turret is only S5, so we can already discount that. After that, we've got two S8 AP1 shots and an S9 AP2. Neither of these weapons are twin-linked, so all they can do is snap fire. You'll only strip about 0.28 hull points, and you'll be lucky to roll on the damage table more than 19% of the time. That's not just bad, that's astoundingly bad.
So let's look at something a little less potent and a little more ubiquitous, the night scythe. Your hull/sponson weapons are marginally more effective here, managing to strip 0.36 hull points, but you're still not getting to the damage table even 26% of the time. Your turret finally gets to do something, but it's not rolling on the damage table either. It will average about 0.55 hull points. So your 225 point vehicle managed to strip a single hull point from an AV11 transport. Disappointing.
For reference, 225 points of orks will get you 15 lootas. Those lootas will average thirty S7 shots on that night scythe from 12" farther away. Those shots will strip an average of 2.5 hull points from a night scythe, with 2/3 of those results penetrating. That's over twice as effective (and lootas hardly count as "first-choice" in bringing down fliers).
The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
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Post by: Tomten
how can you strip 0.28 hullpoint? Automatically Appended Next Post: You can take a lot of Heavy weapon teams with HB
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Post by: Vaktathi
It's a mathematical average, functionally it means you're likely to do squat to that vehicle.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
It's also nice to be a millionaire. What's your point?
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Post by: Tomten
You cant do a 0,28 hullpoint. You take off a hullpoint or you dont, there is no between.
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Post by: Corollax
Tomten wrote:You cant do a 0,28 hullpoint. You take off a hullpoint or you dont, there is no between.
Obviously. And in the language of averages that I chose to employ in that post, it means that you're going to do nothing to it more 72% of the time. Excuse me for thinking this didn't need to be explained.
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Post by: Tomten
Sry man Automatically Appended Next Post: If you shoot at fliers use vendettas with 3 twinlinked Lascannons
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Post by: Vaktathi
Tomten wrote:You cant do a 0,28 hullpoint. You take off a hullpoint or you dont, there is no between.
What that 0.28 Hull Points means is that, on average, you'll inflict 1 HP damage roughly every 4 turns with that vehicle loadout. It's telling you "hey, I'd need to do this 4 times to knock off a single HP". It's not saying that you can somehow knock off .28 of a hull point.
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Post by: Tomten
How do you pronounce Lascannon? Automatically Appended Next Post: Why do you always compare to MEQs?
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Post by: Ailaros
One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
This is making the assumption that the Russ can somehow out maneuver the Vendetta which is rediculous. Vendettas are MUCH better and almost 100 points less with a volume of other perks.
BUT I will agree that a Punisher load out is versatile among Russes which is the point of the thread I believe. The most versatile I am not so sure, a very fun tank with multi purpose.
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Post by: Corollax
Of course, the vendetta is 130 points, while the punisher you're quoting is 225. So when the vendetta blows up its competition 50% more often, one does wonder why you insist on using inferior units.
Edit: And of course, do note that while the Vendetta is "only" getting 50% more explode results on the Punisher, you're also chipping off 0.75 hull points per volley, where the Punisher is getting 0.28. So it's not just 50% better at exploding outright, it's 200% better at removing hull points.
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Post by: WhiteWolf01
Yeah, but is that one in 12 times worth it? I mean if the punisher has nothing else to shoot at maybe, but most of the time your punisher will have ground targets to focus on, at least in my experience. Adding the MM-las might give you that 1 in 12 chance to down a vendetta, but at the same time your diluting it's potential to wreck hordes even more without its 3 heavy bolters. I get this thread is about versatility, but concerning the punisher is it ultimately worth it? Especially if you have other means of taking out fliers. In your case, maybe not since you don't run the vendetta, but for those who do run vendettas why bother with the MM-las punisher? So you can take out other armor? Sure, but most would also have other units specifically dedicated for those targets. That and I've found MMs to be somewhat disappointing. It seems you need to be within that 12in for them to really work, and I sure as heck don't want my expensive tank within 12in of anything. 24in is bad enough.
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Post by: Corollax
And of course, all this completely neglects the issue of range. Multi-meltas are only 24", after all. Many of the targets you'd like to melt aren't going to be so kind as to walk into your line of fire.
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Post by: Peregrine
Corollax wrote:Of course, the vendetta is 130 points, while the punisher you're quoting is 225. So when the vendetta blows up its competition 50% more often, one does wonder why you insist on using inferior units.
This.
Just like in the Eradicator thread, Ailaros conveniently ignores the entire cost issue and pretends that there's "equivalence" between an expensive unit and a cheaper one that gets better results.
Besides that it's the wrong comparison to make. Who cares about whether the two potential units can kill each other, what matters is how good they are at killing the same target. In that case a Vendetta will kill outright (ignoring HP loss) another Vendetta about one in three times, while the "useful" LR Punisher can only manage it one in twelve. So the LR Punisher is four times worse than the Vendetta at killing Vendettas. And its seven times worse if you consider kills per point. That's so far from "close" that you'd have to be delusional to think that the Punisher can compete.
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Post by: Shadox
Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
Couldn't you just get the Exterminator which do the job better for less and would even have enough shots to challenge bigger mobs?
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Post by: Evertras
Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.
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Post by: Tomten
Shadox wrote: Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
Couldn't you just get the Exterminator which do the job better for less and would even have enough shots to challenge bigger mobs?[/quote
Why would even get the Exterminator? Automatically Appended Next Post: The Vendettas are good at taking out other fliers and AV 10-13. And you can shoot down some MCs.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Corollax wrote:
The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
Nobody said good.
The argument is versatile.
My vote is Leman Russ Annihilator
Main gun-Flyers/Transports/ TEQ/AV14
Hull flamer-entrenched GEQ
Plasmacannon sponsons- MEQ
The big issue when arguing versatility is flyers, and none of the blast ones can handle flyers. The LRA can handle just about everything moderately well kitted like this. Leman Russ Exterminator too, but it will have to choose between Plasmacannon sponsons to cover MEQ/ TEQ, or Multimelta Sponsons to cover AV14.
LRA is the multitool of Leman Russes.
Too bad it sucks.
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Post by: Tomten
Punisher shoots 20 times, 10 hit (average) and 6 wound with saves.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
Evertras wrote: Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.
I kind of understand what Ailaros is saying - Punishers can threaten armour and infantry, whereas Vendettas are only good vs armour, but are much cheaper. Still, a Vendetta also does the anti-armour role FAR better than a Punisher, which suggests to me that you should then use your HS slot to take something that can do something the Vendetta doesn't do well.
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Post by: Tomten
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Evertras wrote: Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.
I kind of understand what Ailaros is saying - Punishers can threaten armour and infantry, whereas Vendettas are only good vs armour, but are much cheaper. Still, a Vendetta also does the anti-armour role FAR better than a Punisher, which suggests to me that you should then use your HS slot to take something that can do something the Vendetta doesn't do well.
The vendetta is a transport as well.
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Post by: jmurph
Yeah, the question was versatility, not pints efficiency or even overall usefulness. So A vehicle that can put out alot of moderate strength shots, some meltas and and las shot is pretty versatile, just like a loadout with the battlecannon, las cannon and some HB sponsons is pretty versatile.
Of course, some load outs are versatile, but also utter garbage for the points. For example. any LRBT "designed" to kill fliers. That's what more specialized tools like the Vendetta are for. OTOH, Vendettas can't drop battlecannon shots or plasma blasts, which are superior against MEQs, and TEQs, respectively. So there is that.
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Post by: Tomten
jmurph wrote:Yeah, the question was versatility, not pints efficiency or even overall usefulness. So A vehicle that can put out alot of moderate strength shots, some meltas and and las shot is pretty versatile, just like a loadout with the battlecannon, las cannon and some HB sponsons is pretty versatile.
Of course, some load outs are versatile, but also utter garbage for the points. For example. any LRBT "designed" to kill fliers. That's what more specialized tools like the Vendetta are for. OTOH, Vendettas can't drop battlecannon shots or plasma blasts, which are superior against MEQs, and TEQs, respectively. So there is that.
The vendetta can transport a group of veterans who carries plasmas
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Post by: Corollax
Peregrine wrote:Just like in the Eradicator thread, Ailaros conveniently ignores the entire cost issue and pretends that there's "equivalence" between an expensive unit and a cheaper one that gets better results.
Besides that it's the wrong comparison to make. Who cares about whether the two potential units can kill each other, what matters is how good they are at killing the same target. In that case a Vendetta will kill outright (ignoring HP loss) another Vendetta about one in three times, while the "useful" LR Punisher can only manage it one in twelve. So the LR Punisher is four times worse than the Vendetta at killing Vendettas. And its seven times worse if you consider kills per point. That's so far from "close" that you'd have to be delusional to think that the Punisher can compete.
How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.
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Post by: Tomten
I want to try out a IG flier list
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Post by: Evertras
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Evertras wrote: Ailaros wrote:One in 12 times a melta-las punisher shoots at a vendetta, it blows up the vendetta. For comparison, the vendetta returns the favor about one in 8 times.
Certainly vendettas are good, but they're not phenominally better, which you would expect for something that much cheaper, and dedicated for few tasks other than blowing russes up.
I'm a little confused. Wouldn't the cheaper unit generally not be expected to perform as well?
Which is sort of the point of this entire thread. Punishers do the job worse, but still in the same league as vendettas, while also being able to target every other unit in the game. They're good here not because they're flyer killers extraordinaire, they're good because they can handle everything.
You know... versatility.
Why would the vendetta only be used for killing russes? Why not instant death things with 2 lascannon hits a phase that can get through terminator armor? That seems versatile to me.
I kind of understand what Ailaros is saying - Punishers can threaten armour and infantry, whereas Vendettas are only good vs armour, but are much cheaper. Still, a Vendetta also does the anti-armour role FAR better than a Punisher, which suggests to me that you should then use your HS slot to take something that can do something the Vendetta doesn't do well.
I'd argue that by the numbers, a vendetta threatens heavy infantry in a similar way that the Punisher threatens light armor. It's no plasma blast, but 2 armor-ignoring probably-instant-deathing wounds average on pretty much anything that isn't in cover will start to catch up around 3+ armor saves (about one wound more for Punisher) and wins out against 2+ armor saves. This is ignoring cost, which makes the vendetta even more desirable, and anything with multple wounds is going to get roasted. Also the range is way higher on the lascannons than the 24" Punisher.
Punisher is way better against hordes, though, no question.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You need less caffeine.
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Post by: Martel732
I'm not an IG player, but when did they gimp lumbering behemoth?
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Post by: Shadox
In the 2nd FAQ wave after 6th edition.
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Post by: Tomten
It wouldve been awesome to have like 6 vendettas and one veteran squad in each one
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Post by: Martel732
Hmm.... wow. That kinda sucks for IG. Most versatile? Are we allowed to narrow this to anti-tank/anti-horde? Because I don't think any Leman Russ variant is in any way good at AA.
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Post by: Ailaros
Yeah, the annihilator is reasonably versatile as well.
This debate isn't about vendettas, but I'll just note that fliers have movement restrictions, and that there are real events that happen in games. I've taken down fliers with regular meltaguns before. To say that you'll never get multimeltas in range is just crazy talk.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Corollax wrote:
How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.
Then both you, and the people you play, are doing something wrong.
An AV 12 Flier is still easier to kill than an AV 14 non-Flier.
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Post by: Vaktathi
DarknessEternal wrote:Corollax wrote:
How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.
Then both you, and the people you play, are doing something wrong.
An AV 12 Flier is still easier to kill than an AV 14 non-Flier.
Hitting on 6's with an "always on" option to Jink? For Orks and their Lootas perhaps. Melta is super plentiful in many armies and most long range AT guns will have a better chance against the ground bound LR than the vendetta, especially higher BS armies, and when it comes to close combat LR tanks are hilariously easy to kill, a tac squad has an easier time killing a moving LRBT than it does killing 2 basic marines on a charge.
The big thing is that the flier is vulnerable to more types of weapons. That said, a BS4 lascannon has double the chance to one-shot an AV14 tank that it does to one-shot a Vendetta.
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Post by: Corollax
DarknessEternal wrote:Corollax wrote:
How right you are. Of course, this does neglect the issue of durability -- that is, how difficult is it for the enemy to kill our unit. The Leman Russ is an AV14 vehicle, and the Vendetta is a flier -- so naturally, the Vendetta wins that competition as well.
Then both you, and the people you play, are doing something wrong.
An AV 12 Flier is still easier to kill than an AV 14 non-Flier.
The last sentence there was meant to be taken in jest. That said, I think you'll find more than a few people willing to argue that the Vendetta is more durable -- at least in the absence of Imperial Armour units. And do keep in mind that this is an AV12 flier that costs less than 60% what the Leman Russ does. A vendetta might be easier to kill, but I can put 70% more of them on the table for what I'd be paying for in a Russ platform. It's like they say -- quantity has a quality all its own.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Ailaros wrote:Yeah, the annihilator is reasonably versatile as well.
This debate isn't about vendettas, but I'll just note that fliers have movement restrictions, and that there are real events that happen in games. I've taken down fliers with regular meltaguns before. To say that you'll never get multimeltas in range is just crazy talk.
Good thing they can't switch to hover mode or leave the table at will.... Oh wait. Imperial fliers do not have movement restrictions.
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Post by: Ailaros
If only my opponents would ever go into hover mode. I would LOVE to get some non-snap-shot lascannon hits on them.
Oh, wait...
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Post by: DevianID
If you want battle tanks to be efficiently versatile, your gonna have a bad time. They simply pay too many points for the durable av14 frame. That said, 4 twin linked s7 shots can damage anything in the game short of av14, and unlike the many blast turret options still gets to shoot flyers. If you add either a Las cannon or multimelta sponsons then you gain limited av14 abilities, but since you are spending a fair bit without increasing defense you dilute the value as a tank at that point.
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Post by: Ailaros
I don't know if "efficiently versatile" is really a thing that 40k is big on.
It seems to me that the game is designed in such a way where you have "ineffectively versatile" things that are cheap (grenade launchers and autocannons spring to mind), or things that are "effectively versatile", that can handle multiple things well, but you have to pay through the nose for them (10x stormtrooper squads, and ensponsoned russes would be examples).
If something were both great against all targets, AND really cheap, well, we probably wouldn't see guard lists with anything BUT said unit.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:If something were both great against all targets, AND really cheap, well, we probably wouldn't see guard lists with anything BUT said unit.
And that is why Vendettas are a mandatory unit.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Ailaros wrote:
If something were both great against all targets, AND really cheap, well, we probably wouldn't see guard lists with anything BUT said unit.
I've seen 9 Vendettas.
And before someone whines about the "all targets" part, they can carry 2x Heavy Bolter.
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Post by: Ailaros
For really cheap, too.
Of course, can we think of ANY russ loadout that's going to be good against 9x vendetta spam AND be versatile at the same time?
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
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Post by: DevianID
There are great generalist units to be had besides vendettas if trying to damage av14 is off the table. Hydras are weaker but still have good shot count and twin linked when no flyers are around. The aegis 2+ cover save supported by spammed auto cannon teams are passable as well, as when firing at flyers the go to ground penalty is diminished. But I digress, vendettas are still the best choice around, and very few builds can deal with that many. For Russes to take them on, you would need to hide your rear and camp behind an aegis line with camo nets. You would probably have an easier time beating that force by choking the board so full of models that they can't ever come on the board, or by killing whatever is on the table turn 1 by some means so the vendettas never get to play
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Post by: Red Corsair
Ailaros wrote:If only my opponents would ever go into hover mode. I would LOVE to get some non-snap-shot lascannon hits on them.
Oh, wait...
Not the point, the point is hover mode IS an option that makes the vendetta more maneuverable. That and the ability to leave combat space means it will always be able to out pace a Russ. Good for your crappy PIS las canon spam, that's what the rest of your opponents army is for. If your dedicating your heavy section and your troops to deal with a couple cheap vendettas then you already lost.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Matt.Kingsley wrote:For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
18 Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Exterminators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Vanquishers with Coaxial Stubber, Hull Lascannon, and Sponson Multimelta.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
Ailaros wrote:For really cheap, too.
Of course, can we think of ANY russ loadout that's going to be good against 9x vendetta spam AND be versatile at the same time?
Yes, the ensponsoned Eradicators.
9 Vendettas don't bother me. It's pretty easy to table them in the 2 turns before anything shows up.
2 Vendettas are much more useful.
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Post by: TheCaptain
DarknessEternal wrote: Ailaros wrote:For really cheap, too.
Of course, can we think of ANY russ loadout that's going to be good against 9x vendetta spam AND be versatile at the same time?
Yes, the ensponsoned Eradicators.
9 Vendettas don't bother me. It's pretty easy to table them in the 2 turns before anything shows up.
2 Vendettas are much more useful.
With 9 vendettas, something is all but guaranteed to show up the second turn.
And no good player running 9 vendettas will be table-able. Its as simple as hiding out of LoS for a turn.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
TheCaptain wrote: Matt.Kingsley wrote:For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
18 Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Exterminators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Vanquishers with Coaxial Stubber, Hull Lascannon, and Sponson Multimelta.
Hehe... good point.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Matt.Kingsley wrote: TheCaptain wrote: Matt.Kingsley wrote:For that matter, can we think of ANY russ loadout that will be good against 9x vendetta spam?
18 Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Exterminators with Hull Lascannon and Sponson Multimelta.
18 Leman Russ Vanquishers with Coaxial Stubber, Hull Lascannon, and Sponson Multimelta.
Hehe... good point.
I'm a well of brilliance.
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
Yes. Yes you are.
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Post by: Tomten
The LR with battle cannon is versatile.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Tomten, buddy. I've noticed with several of your posts; you usually just make a short post with a statement and no justification.
At dakka, we like explanations and math.
Because any advice here may lead to someone buying new models.
If I start a thread saying "What is IG's best tank?"
and you say " LR with battle cannon" I'm not going to feel very comfortable buying an LR with battle cannon, because I have no idea why.
You need to explain your posts. Give reasoning why, and maybe put some math behind it as proof. It will make your posts much more useful.
-TheCaptain
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
Either the LRBT or the Executioner with full plasma sponsons. LRBT is decent against almost anything but Termis, cover abuse infantry, fliers, and MC. Plasmastorm Exectuioner is good against anything not AV 14/fliers and cover abuse infantry. The sheer weight of fire gives it enough wounds to handle MC's (not to mention it's got an easier time hitting them) and spaced out elite units like termi squads, and at the same time makes it a threat to hordes. The fact that templates hit at full strength now makes it a threat to parking lots, as it'll strip hullpoints like crazy against a packed in line. The AP also gives you a 1/3 explosion chance (1/2 if open topped) meaning against things like rhinos you even have a chance to kill it outright. With the LRBT, I have run into situations where its useless. I've NEVER ran into a situation where my executioners couldn't kill something redonculously well in the opponent's army.
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Post by: Tomten
TheCaptain wrote:
Tomten, buddy. I've noticed with several of your posts; you usually just make a short post with a statement and no justification.
At dakka, we like explanations and math.
Because any advice here may lead to someone buying new models.
If I start a thread saying "What is IG's best tank?"
and you say " LR with battle cannon" I'm not going to feel very comfortable buying an LR with battle cannon, because I have no idea why.
You need to explain your posts. Give reasoning why, and maybe put some math behind it as proof. It will make your posts much more useful.
-TheCaptain
Thank you for the info. Automatically Appended Next Post: I will do that from now on.
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Post by: Valhalla130
I'm not good at math. I rely on you guys to do all that for me.
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Post by: Martel732
Given the nerf on lumbering behemoth, the answer to this is almost certainly some variant with a non-ordnance weapon, right?
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Post by: TheCaptain
Martel732 wrote:Given the nerf on lumbering behemoth, the answer to this is almost certainly some variant with a non-ordnance weapon, right?
Well, the good answer is "Guard don't "do" versatility."
Guard use
3 of Unit X that do job A
4 of Unit Y that do job B
2 of Unit Z that do job C
and
2 of Unit V that sing, dance, and do two things pretty good.
Basic formula for a guard list.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Martel732 wrote:Given the nerf on lumbering behemoth, the answer to this is almost certainly some variant with a non-ordnance weapon, right?
Only if you like sponsons. If you're like me, and ran basic Russes with no upgrades commonly, then the nerf really didn't affect them. We only lost our heavy bolter, and not even completely because it still protects from Weapon Destroyed and can snap-fire.
I never fired their heavy bolters in 5th anyways because of wound allocation shennanigans. So no real loss honestly.
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Post by: Martel732
Ah, okay. I guess snap firing is less of a loss for the Guard than the Spess Mahreens
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Martel732 wrote:Ah, okay. I guess snap firing is less of a loss for the Guard than the Spess Mahreens 
That and it's a single heavy bolter - commonly agreed to be one of the most useless weapons ever period (since 4th iirc).
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Post by: washout77
Simple answer is we don't really do "versatility"
The Guard rely on multiple redundant specialized units to get a job done. The unit has one purpose, and if it dies another takes it spot and it does the job. Once the job is over, it can provide support for other un-done jobs.
We CAN have versatile units, but thanks to us being only Guardsmen and not Space Marines the unit will be pretty OK at things but not great at anything.
Here is what I do when I play around with lists:
1: List out all the jobs you need to take care of in your meta (or all if you want to), like Heavy Armor killing, TeQ killing, Horde killing, etc.
2: Create 2-3 units to cover each section, and specialize them for that section (obviously, points may restrict what you do here so you may have to bring priorities or sacrifices)
3: Any gaps not covered, or not covered well enough, you can try to patch up with a few generalist units.
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Post by: Tomten
Is the demolisher less competitive thanthe LRBT? I mean who doesnt like a S10 AP2 large blast?
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Post by: Corollax
Unit1126PLL wrote:Martel732 wrote:Ah, okay. I guess snap firing is less of a loss for the Guard than the Spess Mahreens 
That and it's a single heavy bolter - commonly agreed to be one of the most useless weapons ever period (since 4th iirc).
To be fair, there are a few platforms that can do heavy bolters well. Long fangs can pick up five BS4 heavy bolters for a mere 115 points in their long fang squads, though missile launchers are certainly more common. I'm not precisely sure why Long Fangs get a 5 ppm discount on such weird weapons, but it does add a bit of inter-codex variety to the devastator options (even if every devastator squad in that codex seems to be bringing the same weapon).
Of course, if you're really itching for S5 firepower, you can't do much better than the Imperial Armour Vulture (which brings a twin-linked punisher gatling cannon on a BS3 strafing run vector dancing AV12-12-10 flier.) The Leman Russ Punisher promises twenty shots with a complimentary heavy bolter. The vulture gets those shots to the target accurately, for 20% fewer points.
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Post by: Ailaros
TheCaptain wrote:Well, the good answer is "Guard don't "do" versatility."
And normally I'd agree with that, but I don't think this rule is actually that applicable to russes. Russes aren't cheap, and they have actually GOOD mixable weapons options.
MrMoustaffa wrote:LRBT is decent against almost anything but Termis, cover abuse infantry, fliers, and MC.
With the LRBT, I have run into situations where its useless.
And vehicles.
Anyways, I think the bottom line is telling, and a good way to judge versatility, actually. Being good at something is great, but if the thing you're good at causes you to have a unit that does basically nothing for half of your games, then you've got a problem. I mean, it's the main reason I eventually ditched ogryn. I want something that is reasonably useful or better every game, rather than something that alternates between beatface and pine riding depending on the circumstances.
Thankfully, due to russ hull weapon options, you're much less likely to fall into that trap.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
They're actually not too bad against vehicles. I've often tossed shots at fire support vehicles since I know with ordnance, odds are I'll get a pen, and that I'll probably screw that vehicle's ability to shoot well.
But that being said, I'd much much MUCH rather shoot something else.
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Post by: Tomten
Would you take en Executioner over a LRBT? I mean the Executioner can put out 5 blast with AP2 but its 36 inch range while the LRBT has a range of 72 and can hurt vehicles very well and it kill MEQs.
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Post by: Corollax
If I didn't have to cripple my list elsewhere to get the points, I certainly would. A Guardsman with appropriate devotion does not fear death. If Executioners don't exemplify this, I don't know what does.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Tomten wrote:Would you take en Executioner over a LRBT? I mean the Executioner can put out 5 blast with AP2 but its 36 inch range while the LRBT has a range of 72 and can hurt vehicles very well and it kill MEQs.
Not in my Armored Battlegroup. I can't spare the ~100 points more that the Executioner costs.
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Post by: Corollax
Only 80 points (53%) more, but fair enough.
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Post by: Tomten
Its 80 points that you spend on something else.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Isn't that enough for a whole HWS with lascannons?
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
including 1/2 of another leman russ with armored track guards, or TWO plasma cannon sponsons for vanquishers / annihilators / exterminators / eradicators / conquerors.
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Post by: ender502
Alot of great points made in this thread. I'd just like to throw this out...the LR is a good chassis but, as with all guard units, really doesn't DO versatile.
The "Ordnance" turrets make the sponsons almost pointless. And it is the sponsons that create any thing remotely resembling versatility. So, if you are going to pick any of the LR chassis I think you need to look at NON-Ordinance turret russ's.
For versatility i'd go for the exterminator with las in the hull and probably plasma sponsons... multi s7 shots from the turret, a couple of s7 ap 2 blasts and a dedicated s9 AT shot..also, the s7 is not bad at killing light vehicles.
ender502
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Post by: Tomten
i dont like the exterminator because its just more Autocannon shots that you alredy have plenty of.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Tomten wrote:i dont like the exterminator because its just more Autocannon shots that you alredy have plenty of.
Well armored battlegroups don't tend to have as many autocannons as the infantry armies. Although I agree, largely. I'd rather have another regular Russ.
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Post by: Tomten
Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Tomten wrote:Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.
The Vanquisher is ridiculously bad unless you're taking it as the HQ in an armored battlegroup.
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Post by: Trickstick
Unit1126PLL wrote: Tomten wrote:Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.
The Vanquisher is ridiculously bad unless you're taking it as the HQ in an armored battlegroup.
Then it goes to the other end of the scale and becomes awesome. Beast hunter shells are barrels of fun, especially when you tell people that they can one hit kill a tervigon.
Exterminators are better than infantry based ACs, as they can move with no loss of potential. This makes it easier to get side shots.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Trickstick wrote: Unit1126PLL wrote: Tomten wrote:Is the vanquisher a good Anti-tank tank. Its expensive and its oneshot per turn with BS3. you can take pask but hes expensive too.
The Vanquisher is ridiculously bad unless you're taking it as the HQ in an armored battlegroup.
Then it goes to the other end of the scale and becomes awesome. Beast hunter shells are barrels of fun, especially when you tell people that they can one hit kill a tervigon.
Exterminators are better than infantry based ACs, as they can move with no loss of potential. This makes it easier to get side shots.
This is true, both about the Vanquisher and the Exterminator. The Exterminator also is a synchronized twin-linked autocannon, so you get 20pts worth of autocannon shots AND twin link them.
It's roughly like having three or even four squads with autocannons.
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Post by: Tomten
Whats an armoured battlegroup?
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Post by: Vaktathi
Yeah, normal Vanquishers are awful, they're really bad at what they do for what they cost.
Armored Battlegroup Vanquishers taken as HQ units are great however, being BS4 and able to take a coaxial heavy Stubber to allow the main gun rerolls, and the aforementioned Beast Hunter shells add a whole new dimension of usefulness, especially as they're a Blast weapon and can give the Vanq some greater anti-infantry capability.
That said, they're not cheap either, but well worth it with that kit.
I also have really been liking the LC/2xHB Exterminators with Armored Battlegroups, the AB I'm building will have 4 of them as Troops. Setup like that they make very good generalists that can engage infantry, MC's and medium vehicles effectively and still at least threaten to hurt heavy tanks and death stars.
It's an army list from Forgeworld's Imperial Armour Volume 1 that allows one to play an Imperial Guard tank army, with Leman Russ tanks as Troops/ HQ/Elites, and infantry are relatively limited.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
An Imperial Tank Company, the list for which can be found in Imperial Armor Vol. 1, Second Edition. It includes things such as upgrades unique to tank companies (artificer hulls, armored track guards, anti-grenade mesh, etc), orders for tank companies (Concentrated Fire, Evasive Driving, Full Speed Ahead) and specialized ammunition issued to the higher echelons of Imperial armored units (Beast Hunter shells, infernus shells, augur shells, etc).
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Post by: Tomten
I will check that up.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Corollax wrote:
The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
I disagree. If you specialize to make it a dakka dakka dakka machine, HHB and HB sponsons aren't that bad, as are MM sponsons if you want to have some anti-tank. It's a love or hate creature, and mostly not that versatile, and you're right, it's quite poor against most flyers.
My vote would go to either the LRBT (anything except TEQ, flyers and fellow AV14's and probably 13's, but limited volume of fire) or the Exterminator for hitting reliability (no scatter, pretty much guaranteed three S7 hits plus sponsons/hull weapons every turn, but poor against MEQ or better armor). Note that this doesn't make either the "best" Russ-just being more versatile doesn't make them stronger on the whole. The Demolisher gets close, but loses due to short range IMO. It just can't respond to threats fast enough to make it "versatile".
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Post by: Trondheim
For me who face almost noting but Orks, Nids and a few DE noting beats the bog standard battle cannon and HB sponsons and hull mounted HB:
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Post by: TheCaptain
Hedkrakka wrote:Corollax wrote:
The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
I disagree. If you specialize to make it a dakka dakka dakka machine, HHB and HB sponsons aren't that bad, as are MM sponsons if you want to have some anti-tank. It's a love or hate creature, and mostly not that versatile, and you're right, it's quite poor against most flyers.
My vote would go to either the LRBT (anything except TEQ, flyers and fellow AV14's and probably 13's, but limited volume of fire) or the Exterminator for hitting reliability (no scatter, pretty much guaranteed three S7 hits plus sponsons/hull weapons every turn, but poor against MEQ or better armor). Note that this doesn't make either the "best" Russ-just being more versatile doesn't make them stronger on the whole. The Demolisher gets close, but loses due to short range IMO. It just can't respond to threats fast enough to make it "versatile".
Has anyone actually run the math on the 3 HB, Punisher Leman Russ vs. MEQ?
Because even the TL, BS4 Vulture Punishers will only kill 3.8ish MEQ, plus the heavy bolter.
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Post by: phantommaster
I like Ailaros' suggestion on the 1st page.
But I do recommend a pair standard 150pt LRBT's. Take Camo and put them behind a Defense Line if you want.
Besides that I use Exterminators w/ Multi Melta sponsons, cheaper than Ailaros' Punisher and does just about the same with no movement penalty like the standard one.
Demolishers have too short range.
Vanquishers are too single minded for me, other things do their job cheaper.
Eradicators suffer from AP4 but I like them.
Punishers are too expensive for me.
Executioners are too expensive and are a massive target.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
TheCaptain wrote:Hedkrakka wrote:Corollax wrote:
The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
I disagree. If you specialize to make it a dakka dakka dakka machine, HHB and HB sponsons aren't that bad, as are MM sponsons if you want to have some anti-tank. It's a love or hate creature, and mostly not that versatile, and you're right, it's quite poor against most flyers.
My vote would go to either the LRBT (anything except TEQ, flyers and fellow AV14's and probably 13's, but limited volume of fire) or the Exterminator for hitting reliability (no scatter, pretty much guaranteed three S7 hits plus sponsons/hull weapons every turn, but poor against MEQ or better armor). Note that this doesn't make either the "best" Russ-just being more versatile doesn't make them stronger on the whole. The Demolisher gets close, but loses due to short range IMO. It just can't respond to threats fast enough to make it "versatile".
Has anyone actually run the math on the 3 HB, Punisher Leman Russ vs. MEQ?
Because even the TL, BS4 Vulture Punishers will only kill 3.8ish MEQ, plus the heavy bolter.
I use vanilla 40K, so I can't comment on the Vulture. I'm not much of a statistics guy either, but I'll try the math.
20 S5 AP- shots + 9 S5 AP4 shots.
Averages, without Pask:
10 S5 AP- hits + 4.5 S5 AP4 hits
vs. T4, 3+ ( MEQ)
9.7 wounds
3.22 unsaved wounds
vs. T3, 5+ ( GEQ)
12.1 wounds (8.33 AP-, 3.75 AP4)
9.3 unsaved wounds
vs. T4, 2+ ( TEQ)
9.7 wounds
1.6 unsaved wounds
With Pask:
13.67 S5 AP- hits, 6 S5 AP4 hits
vs. T4, 3+ ( MEQ)
13.11 wounds
4.37 unsaved wounds
vs. T3, 5+ ( GEQ)
16.39 wounds (11.39 AP-, 5 AP4)
12.59 unsaved wounds
vs. T4, 2+ ( TEQ)
13.11 wounds
2.19 unsaved wounds
Doesn't look too bad IMO. Yes, sucks against vehicles (well, may glance AV10 and 11 to death, maybe) and most MCs, but against all infantry that dare get into range that's one good burst of fire. It's a pity that the range and mobility are underwhelming. Pask provides a boost, but I'm not sure it's enough to take him.
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Post by: Tomten
I think that the medusa does e better job than the Demolisher because it has a longer range and can hide behind buildings and such.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
The Medusa can hide behind buildings? How? It's not a Barrage weapon IIRC. Agree on the long range, but the survivability sucks. If you're confident that the first shot will count big time, yeah, Medusae are better, but they rarely get a second shot off in my experience. Works best in an AV12 spam list IMO. Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually want to add to the Punisher math a bit, adding popular high toughness setups and light vehicles. T6 2+ or T7+ isn't included as the tank obviously sucks against them.
Without Pask
vs. T5, 4+ (Ork bikers)
7.25 wounds
3.63 unsaved wounds
vs. T6, 3+ (Carnifex, Tervigon, Trygon etc.)
4.83 wounds
1.61 unsaved wounds
vs. T5, 3+, FnP (Plague Marines)
7.25 wounds
1.61 unsaved wounds
vs. AV10
14.5 hits
2.41 glances
2.41 pens
vs. AV11
14.5 hits
2.41 glances
With Pask
vs. T5, 4+ (Ork bikers)
9.84 wounds
4.92 unsaved wounds
vs. T6, 3+ (Carnifex, Tervigon, Trygon etc.)
6.56 wounds
2.19 unsaved wounds
vs. T5, 3+, FnP (Plague Marines)
9.84 wounds
2.19 unsaved wounds
vs. AV10 (stationary)
19.67 hits
3.28 glances
6.56 pens
vs. AV11 (stationary) or AV10 (moving)
19.67 hits
3.28 glances
3.28 pens
vs. AV12 (stationary) or AV11 (moving)
19.67 hits
3.28 glances Automatically Appended Next Post: Doesn't look as good anymore. In fact, the older stuff didn't look too good either. Silly me.
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Post by: Tomten
I thought so but it was not the case.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
ender502 wrote:Alot of great points made in this thread. I'd just like to throw this out...the LR is a good chassis but, as with all guard units, really doesn't DO versatile.
The "Ordnance" turrets make the sponsons almost pointless. And it is the sponsons that create any thing remotely resembling versatility. So, if you are going to pick any of the LR chassis I think you need to look at NON-Ordinance turret russ's.
For versatility i'd go for the exterminator with las in the hull and probably plasma sponsons... multi s7 shots from the turret, a couple of s7 ap 2 blasts and a dedicated s9 AT shot..also, the s7 is not bad at killing light vehicles.
ender502
This.
4 Twin-Linked S7 shots at good range gives you a real chance against flyers.
2 Plasma Cannons helps with MEQ/ TEQ and hordes.
Hull Lascannon Gives you a shot at AV14.
Expensive (205), but not stupidly so.
Or Forge World:
Russ Annihilator, hull lascannon and sponson plasma cannons (185).
twin-lascannon and lascannon for hoping to get lucky on anti-flyer, and 2 plasma cannons and 2 lascannon shots for everyone else.
-Matt
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Post by: Tomten
did you only count the punisher cannon or that + the 3 heavy bolters? Automatically Appended Next Post: No not really the 4 TL autocannon shots are not that great against fliers. players here just have AV 12 fliers and S7 is not so good vs AV 12
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Tomten wrote:did you only count the punisher cannon or that + the 3 heavy bolters?
The Punisher Gattling Cannon and three HB are all included, i.e. an idealized setup where all guns get to fire.
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Post by: Tomten
Ok it makes much more sense to me.
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Post by: Peregrine
Hedkrakka wrote:Agree on the long range, but the survivability sucks. If you're confident that the first shot will count big time, yeah, Medusae are better, but they rarely get a second shot off in my experience. Works best in an AV12 spam list IMO.
The first shot of the game is the most important, and the Medusa is best at getting that first shot. The Demolisher is probably better in the long run with AV 14 keeping it alive, but it's very vulnerable to being slow to get into the fight and ending up too little, too late.
HawaiiMatt wrote:4 Twin-Linked S7 shots at good range gives you a real chance against flyers.
Not really. It's a "chance" in that you get to roll dice, but it's a terrible substitute for real AA weapons.
2 Plasma Cannons helps with MEQ/TEQ and hordes.
Not very much. With only two 3" blasts it's too easy to space out and minimize the hits, and in many situations you only get to fire one sponson because of firing arc issues. The Executioner works because it has so many shots that even one hit per shot is decent, and a 360* turret to ensure that it can always get to fire most of its shots.
Hull Lascannon Gives you a shot at AV14.
A very, very bad shot. A single LC is barely better than nothing against AV 14.
Anyway, this just shows the problem with how most people think of "versatility".
Fake versatility is using a bunch of different weapons that have nothing in common. For example, a squad with a sniper rifle, a melta gun, and a grenade launcher. The result is a unit that is mediocre at best against lots of things (since you're always wasting most of the weapons), and no matter what you do with it you're going to be disappointed.
Real versatility is using a unified set of weapons that is awesome against multiple target types. For example, a squad with three plasma guns ( MEQs, MCs, light/medium vehicles) or a Vulture with punisher cannons (hordes, light vehicles, MEQs without FNP). The result is a unit that is effective against a slightly narrower range of targets, but is good against all of them.
Lesson here: don't be fooled by fake "versatility". Focus your setups and do the job right.
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Post by: Tomten
LRBT i versatile, it can kill MEQs, TEQs and vehicles
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Post by: Valhalla130
Okay, i keep seeing that but I have no idea what it means. What is TEQ?
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Post by: Peregrine
Terminator equivalent: a T4/2+ infantry model.
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Post by: Evertras
Tomten wrote:LRBT i versatile, it can kill MEQs, TEQs and vehicles 
Please, Tomten, I mean this nicely, but please write more than one vague, tangential sentence in your posts. It's like trying to follow a distracted mosquito.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Peregrine wrote:Hedkrakka wrote:Agree on the long range, but the survivability sucks. If you're confident that the first shot will count big time, yeah, Medusae are better, but they rarely get a second shot off in my experience. Works best in an AV12 spam list IMO.
The first shot of the game is the most important, and the Medusa is best at getting that first shot. The Demolisher is probably better in the long run with AV 14 keeping it alive, but it's very vulnerable to being slow to get into the fight and ending up too little, too late.
True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though). It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.
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Post by: Tomten
dont know meant GEQs.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Umm, sorry, but I don't get what you mean in this comment. It's much easier for everyone if you refer to older posts using the quote function.
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Post by: Peregrine
Hedkrakka wrote:True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though).
Fortunately I do play AV 12 spam, everything is a Chimera or better except for the flyers.
It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.
It's not too much of a problem. You've got a 42" threat range (vs 30" for the Demolisher), so I've found that usually you can hide the Medusas behind cover and still get a shot on turn 1. It's even easier now that you only need to hide 25% of the model, even small terrain pieces can hide one, and a single Chimera can hide two. And night fighting really helps, the extra cover bonus keeps the Medusas alive, while Chimera searchlights make sure the Medusas aren't hurt by it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Hedkrakka wrote:Umm, sorry, but I don't get what you mean in this comment. It's much easier for everyone if you refer to older posts using the quote function.
What he meant was "I didn't mean to say TEQs in my previous post, it was supposed to be GEQs. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, have nothing constructive to offer, and should probably leave this thread and stop bothering everyone."
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Post by: Tomten
Peregrine wrote:Hedkrakka wrote:True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though).
Fortunately I do play AV 12 spam, everything is a Chimera or better except for the flyers.
It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.
It's not too much of a problem. You've got a 42" threat range (vs 30" for the Demolisher), so I've found that usually you can hide the Medusas behind cover and still get a shot on turn 1. It's even easier now that you only need to hide 25% of the model, even small terrain pieces can hide one, and a single Chimera can hide two. And night fighting really helps, the extra cover bonus keeps the Medusas alive, while Chimera searchlights make sure the Medusas aren't hurt by it.
You can have a 52 threat range if you upgrade it.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Peregrine wrote:Hedkrakka wrote:True, but due to the survivability issues, I think one should probably take no more than one unit for most games, unless you're playing AV12 spam and can saturate the board with them and others, which isn't that popular these days (I think it's still effective though).
Fortunately I do play AV 12 spam, everything is a Chimera or better except for the flyers.
It can also become problematic when the opponent steals the initiative (if you deploy the Medusae in the open in LOS of the juiciest targets and they get free shots at them), although that doesn't happen too often.
It's not too much of a problem. You've got a 42" threat range (vs 30" for the Demolisher), so I've found that usually you can hide the Medusas behind cover and still get a shot on turn 1. It's even easier now that you only need to hide 25% of the model, even small terrain pieces can hide one, and a single Chimera can hide two. And night fighting really helps, the extra cover bonus keeps the Medusas alive, while Chimera searchlights make sure the Medusas aren't hurt by it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hedkrakka wrote:Umm, sorry, but I don't get what you mean in this comment. It's much easier for everyone if you refer to older posts using the quote function.
What he meant was "I didn't mean to say TEQs in my previous post, it was supposed to be GEQs. I really have no idea what I'm talking about, have nothing constructive to offer, and should probably leave this thread and stop bothering everyone."
Yeah, you won't get any argument from me there. Medusae are pure gold in AV12 spam, and perform much better than the Demolisher in such a list. About stealing the initiative, I was concerned about exposing side armor while moving out from behind cover, but considering that you get the first shot off anyway, it probably won't matter.
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Post by: Tomten
mög Automatically Appended Next Post: You offended me.
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Post by: Ailaros
Corollax wrote:The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
There is a lot that's missing from this statement.
Firstly, you have to ally space wolves, which you either may not want to do or may not have the models for. Plus, you can't just take devs, you have to take devs AND an HQ AND some troops. The ally tax is going to make this loadout rather expensive.
Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters. Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.
Thirdly, it is much, much, MUCH easier to kill 5 dudes in power armor than a leman russ. Much. Furthermore, a russ will tend to still be able to fire at full effectiveness until it dies, whereas the long fangs start doing less and less damage as the models carrying the heavy bolters start to go down, meaning that you can make them moot without needing to actually wipe the squad. And that's to say nothing about secondary things like morale.
Fourthly, you can concentrate a lot more killing power onto a russ than on to longfangs. With a 4x HB dev squad, you're looking at 8 HB hits, but a russ can be upgraded to do the 11.5 with its basic weapons and then also shoot at stuff with multimeltas or plasma cannons.
Simply put, the punisher can put out a lot more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies.
And you can take up to 9 of them, unlike your one longfang squad.
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Post by: Valhalla130
I'll never ally in Space Wolves. I'm morally opposed to it. lol
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Post by: TheCaptain
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Post by: Valhalla130
But I don't like wolves.
I know they're super good. But they're also one of those things that we've been talking about in the cheesy/beardy thread.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters. Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.
Why are we comparing 4 HBs in a unit that can take 5 of them?
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Post by: Corollax
Ailaros wrote:Firstly, you have to ally space wolves, which you either may not want to do or may not have the models for. Plus, you can't just take devs, you have to take devs AND an HQ AND some troops. The ally tax is going to make this loadout rather expensive.
Rune Priests are the single best way to get a good blob in 6th edition. If you're intending to run a blob list, you should already be taking these allies. And grey hunters are regarded as some of the best troops available in 6th edition. If these units are a tax, they're a luxury tax, because they are both fantastic.
Ailaros wrote:Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters.
Actually, you do, because Long Fangs come in packs of 1 squad leader and up to 5 long fangs. Which gives 10 hits, precisely what the Punisher's main turret provides. Except at AP4. Which is what I said.
Ailaros wrote:Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.
Let me say this again: Long fangs get TEN hits. There are five heavy bolters present. Five. Try to look the information up before you post, seriously. That said, you're going to pay 115 points for Long Fangs vs. 200 for a Punisher. Is it worth paying 74% more to get 45% more hits, especially when half those hits don't even carry an AP value?
Ailaros wrote:Thirdly, it is much, much, MUCH easier to kill 5 dudes in power armor than a leman russ. Much. Furthermore, a russ will tend to still be able to fire at full effectiveness until it dies, whereas the long fangs start doing less and less damage as the models carrying the heavy bolters start to go down, meaning that you can make them moot without needing to actually wipe the squad. And that's to say nothing about secondary things like morale.
Six dudes. Six dudes in power armor. Please, please look this stuff up before you post. And the Russ only gets to keep firing at full effectiveness if you ignore things like shaken, stun, and weapon destroyed results. Nevermind its unfortunate allergy to melta.
Ailaros wrote:Fourthly, you can concentrate a lot more killing power onto a russ than on to longfangs. With a 4x HB dev squad, you're looking at 8 HB hits, but a russ can be upgraded to do the 11.5 with its basic weapons and then also shoot at stuff with multimeltas or plasma cannons.
Which is a lousy investment and exactly the kind of "fake" versatility that Peregrine was talking about earlier. Don't mix weapon types. Bring quality armaments that can get good results against a variety of targets, rather than sticking a multi-melta on a heavy-bolter platform (which is exactly what you suggested).
Ailaros wrote:Simply put, the punisher can put out a lot more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies.
It gets more dakka into the air, I'll give it that...but I suppose if that's what you were interested in, you'd go back to Orks.
Ailaros wrote:And you can take up to 9 of them, unlike your one longfang squad.
But why would you ever want to? Automatically Appended Next Post:
Probably because Ailaros lacks the Space Wolf codex. It would certainly be consistent with what he's said so far.
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Post by: Ailaros
I don't.
Let's refresh, then. My previous statement should read "Simply put, the punisher can put out a more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies."
Fixed.
Also, with the allies thing, what if I don't want to ally wolves? what if I'm already allying grey knights or something? Saying that the punisher is bad because a very contingent other choice exists that's not even better seems strange to me.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:Simply put, the punisher can put out a more dakka including of better quality
Except it doesn't.
LR Punisher with max HBs: 14.5 hits (some of them AP -) for 200 points, or 13.8 points per STR 5 hit.
Long Fangs with max HBs: 10 hits (all of them AP 4) for 115 points, or 11.5 points per STR 5 hit.
So yes, the LR Punisher puts out more total hits, but only by paying 20% more per hit. And of course if AP 4 is relevant or you're unable to get both sponsons in arc (a common problem) the Punisher is even worse.
Also, with the allies thing, what if I don't want to ally wolves? what if I'm already allying grey knights or something? Saying that the punisher is bad because a very contingent other choice exists that's not even better seems strange to me.
The point is that when you compare the LR Punisher to units that are actually good at providing STR 5 fire ( HB Long Fangs, Vultures) the LR Punisher isn't very impressive.
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Post by: Corollax
The problem is that Long Fangs are not the only other choice. Forgeworld is a very real element of 40k for a good number of people, and the degree to which the Vulture outclasses the Punisher is frankly staggering. There's more than one alternative -- and at 200 points, the Punisher gives you a lot of room to maneuver in selecting these choices.
Edit: And Peregrine beats me to the punch, saying it more quickly and with more supporting evidence. C'est la vie.
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Post by: Valhalla130
I don't think I would compare SM and IG in any way. It's like apples and oranges. Besides, the designers have said before that they don't equate point costs between different armies, just within that one army. So comparing a Vulture and Punisher would work, comparing a Punisher and Long Fangs would not.
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Post by: Ailaros
Peregrine wrote:So yes, the LR Punisher puts out more total hits, but only by paying 20% more per hit.
Until you consider the ally tax.
Were you able to just straight-up take longfangs in the guard codex, it would be a different story, but it isn't. You have to spend a lot more to get 5 heavy bolter toting long fangs in your list than you do to take a punisher.
And with a punisher, you're not capped at taking only one. And you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require the complication of allies.
Peregrine wrote:The point is that when you compare the LR Punisher to units that are actually good at providing STR 5 fire (HB Long Fangs, Vultures) the LR Punisher isn't very impressive.
But it's super contingent. Not everybody is taking space wolves allies, whereas any guard player has access to a punisher.
Plus, with space wolves, you can only ever bring one, and you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platform with the punisher.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:Until you consider the ally tax.
Were you able to just straight-up take longfangs in the guard codex, it would be a different story, but it isn't. You have to spend a lot more to get 5 heavy bolter toting long fangs in your list than you do to take a punisher.
It's only a "tax" if you don't want the units you're forced to take. A rune priest by itself is reason to take SW allies, and the troops are a very solid unit that you're happy to have.
And with a punisher, you're not capped at taking only one. And you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require the complication of allies.
But, as has already been pointed out before, do you really WANT more than one unit with such a narrow role?
(And even if you do, I'd rather take one LR Punisher and a couple Vultures and save my heavy support slots for Medusas/Demolishers/etc.)
But it's super contingent. Not everybody is taking space wolves allies, whereas any guard player has access to a punisher.
"It's the best you've got" isn't a very compelling argument. If you can't do better than the LR Punisher (but you can, with Vultures) then maybe it's time to admit that you just aren't going to have mass STR 5 shooting in your army.
Plus, with space wolves, you can only ever bring one, and you can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platform with the punisher.
We've already been over this. It isn't better quality ( AP - vs. AP 4) and there's only more of it because you pay a lot more points (20% more per hit).
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Post by: Ailaros
Peregrine wrote:We've already been over this. It isn't better quality (AP - vs. AP 4)
Punishers can take X amount of S5 firepower and can also take multimeltas and plasma cannons. Long fangs can't take those weapons if they're full up on heavy bolters.
Peregrine wrote:It's only a "tax" if you don't want the units you're forced to take. A rune priest by itself is reason to take SW allies, and the troops are a very solid unit that you're happy to have.
Sure, and if you're already taking space wolves allies, then sure, take a unit of long fangs. There's nothing wrong with that.
Not everybody is taking space wolf allies, though, for a variety of reasons. If you're not taking SW allies, though, then you should take a punisher, because it can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require said allies that you're not taking.
Also, even if you are allying with SW, you can only bring one unit of long fangs, whereas you can bring quite a few more punishers.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Don't forget wolves can split fire as well
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Post by: Ailaros
That part is certainly true.
Of course, I can't think of how often I'll be wanting to shoot a couple of heavy bolters at one thing and a couple of heavy bolters at something else.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:Punishers can take X amount of S5 firepower and can also take multimeltas and plasma cannons. Long fangs can't take those weapons if they're full up on heavy bolters.
Except that if you remove the sponsons and hull guns then you're only equaling the Long Fangs' firepower at a much higher point cost and without AP 4. Which means that the Long Fangs can then drop a HB or two and equal the HB point efficiency of the Punisher while also bringing MM/ PC/etc AND they have the ability to split fire the PC at an appropriate target while keeping HB fire on a HB target.
Not everybody is taking space wolf allies, though, for a variety of reasons. If you're not taking SW allies, though, then you should take a punisher, because it can put out more dakka, and of better quality, all on a more durable platorm that doesn't require said allies that you're not taking.
Actually you should take a Vulture. The Punisher is, even without considering allies, only (at most) the second-best choice.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Peregrine wrote:
Lesson here: don't be fooled by fake "versatility". Focus your setups and do the job right.
I guess we need to define what is wanted by the thread "Most Versatile LMBT version".
I took the question as which tank would be able to most effectively engage the most types of targets.
For types of targets, I'd consider:
GEQ's/Hordes
MEQ's
TEQ's
AV10-13
AV14
Flyers
Monsters
If you can't even attempt to engage a flyer or AV14, I think you'd be hard pressed to call it Most Versatile.
Not that I'd actually want a tank that was the most versatile. I want a specialist tank that's really good at a specific job, and if it can do something else too, great.
-Matt
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Post by: Peregrine
HawaiiMatt wrote:I took the question as which tank would be able to most effectively engage the most types of targets.
"Effectively" is the key part of that. A token lascannon doesn't make a unit effective against AV 14, so it's silly to claim that an Eradicator with hull LC is "versatile" because it can shoot at infantry in cover and AV 14. It just has so little chance of doing anything that AV 14 targets might as well be impossible for purposes of evaluating it.
If you can't even attempt to engage a flyer or AV14, I think you'd be hard pressed to call it Most Versatile.
That's not really true at all. Being able to engage it with incredibly low chances of doing anything is barely any better than not being able to engage it at all, so it's silly to claim that a token amount of firepower against flyers/ AV 14/etc makes a difference.
Anyway, the most versatile unit should be evaluated as a three-step process:
1) List all of the unit types which each candidate can deal with effectively.
2) Weight each target type by how effective the candidate is against it ( IOW, "good against MEQs and transports" is worse than "amazing against MEQs and good against transports").
3) Weight each target type by how common it is ( IOW, MEQs are more important than other infantry because marines are so much more common).
Once you've done that you can compare target lists and see which units have the best range of options.
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Post by: ender502
Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is true, both about the Vanquisher and the Exterminator. The Exterminator also is a synchronized twin-linked autocannon, so you get 20pts worth of autocannon shots AND twin link them.
It's roughly like having three or even four squads with autocannons.
Yes, the exterminator is like having 3 squads with autocannons (180 points) or 1 heavy weapons squad (75 points). It is AR 14 and hence less vulnerable to a swath of weapons..but at the same time it is more vulnerable to those weapons that cam hurt it... A heavy weapons squad will never be destroyed by a single lascannon shot.
Also, even if you count the plasma's as equivalent to AC rounds, you get another...3 hits per turn at s7..so like another 3 squads or another heavy weapons squad. Then you add in your weapon as well.
So, assuming you ar eusing the tank as a replacement for the heavy weapons squads..you are paying about 50 points foran AR 14 moving lascannon. Not bad.
Oh, and even though I am not a fan of the punisher, I do agree with Alairos that it is better than taking allies.
ender502
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Post by: Ailaros
Peregrine wrote:Except that if you remove the sponsons and hull guns... Which means that the Long Fangs can then drop a HB or two...
Yes, and if you don't arm any unit properly it's going to loo bad. Vets without special or heavy weapons are terrible compared to the killing power of infantry platoons that are.
If you're doing it right, though, then arguments based on doing it wrong don't have much value.
ender502 wrote:Yes, the exterminator is like having 3 squads with autocannons (180 points) or 1 heavy weapons squad (75 points).
Likewise.
Instead of comparing a naked exterminator to an autocannon HWS, it makes more sense to compare a bolter boat exterminator to an autocannon HWS and a heavy bolter HWS. In this case, they both do the same amount of the same kind of damage. Then, for only 20 points more, you lose scoring for half the games, but upgrade to MUCH, MUCH more durability, and the ability to move and fire better, and immunity to a wide swath of weapons, and a free search light.
Sounds like a hell of a deal to me.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:Yes, and if you don't arm any unit properly it's going to loo bad. Vets without special or heavy weapons are terrible compared to the killing power of infantry platoons that are.
You're missing the point completely. You can't base your " LR Punisher is better than HB Long Fangs" numbers on a LR Punisher with hull and sponson HBs and then simultaneously argue that the LR Punisher can gain versatility from taking a hull LC and PC/ MM sponsons. If you want to consider non- HB sponson/hull weapons then you need to reduce the STR 5 firepower numbers appropriately, at which point the Long Fangs can ALSO bring that versatility while keeping their lead in efficiency.
Sounds like a hell of a deal to me.
Only because HWS are bad.
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Post by: Ailaros
Peregrine wrote:You can't base your "LR Punisher is better than HB Long Fangs" numbers on a LR Punisher with hull and sponson HBs and then simultaneously argue that the LR Punisher can gain versatility from taking a hull LC and PC/MM sponsons.
You can certainly say that a punisher is both if it has plasma cannons. Both put out the same amount of S5 hits, but then the russ has plasma cannons. That's both more dakka AND better dakka at the same time. I'd make the same argument for multimeltas as well.
Of course, that's one of the neat things about russes - you have options. If what you want is to put down more S5 hits than longfangs, there's an option for that. If what you want is to put down the same number of S5 hits, but also be great against any vehicle in the game, there's an option for that too. So many options, which is one of the things that makes russes versatile (versatility in the list building being another type of versatility).
Plus, all that aside, punishers still come on a more durable platform and don't require allies.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros wrote:You can certainly say that a punisher is both if it has plasma cannons. Both put out the same amount of S5 hits, but then the russ has plasma cannons. That's both more dakka AND better dakka at the same time. I'd make the same argument for multimeltas as well.
THAT ISN'T A VALID COMPARISON.
Seriously. If you want to compare the two units you have two choices:
1) Maximum STR 5: all- HB Punisher vs. all- HB Long Fangs.
or
2) Versatility: MM/ PC/ LC Punisher vs. Long Fangs with mixed HBs and PCs/ LCs/ MMs.
In either case the Long Fangs win. They have less total firepower, but better firepower per point, and firepower per point is the statistic that matters. What you can NOT do is use the all- HB Punisher to "prove" that it beats the Long Fangs at STR 5 while simultaneously talking about how its hull and sponson weapons let it be an anti-vehicle threat.
Plus, all that aside, punishers still come on a more durable platform and don't require allies.
Which is true. I'm not sure how the Long Fang comparison even came up since the real reason not to take Punishers is the Vulture, not allied Long Fangs. But if you're going to talk about the comparison you're going to do it right, not just make up whatever numbers you want.
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Post by: DevianID
To weigh in, if you need lots of s5 firepower for infantry, that normally means there is a lot of infantry. This means that said infantry may be vulnerable to multiple hits with a small/large blast.
If those 2 things are true, then we should be considering more than just who carries s5. For example, I can never see the point of long fangs with bolters because long fangs with missiles can do more damage to infantry with frag templates while retaining the s8 ap3. Likewise, a hb punisher versus a squad of 3 griffins, the griffins can deal much much more damage to almost all infantry squads. And if the enemy doesnt have a lot of infantry models for 3 large blasts to hit on, then what is the punisher shooting at anyway?
By trying to compare s5 shot quality I think the larger picture was lost. In any event, the punisher tank is expensive and very specialized, regardless of sponson weapon load out. This should automatically disqualify it from the versatile tank category.
For versatile LRBT, I like the exterminator with no upgrades, the vanilla with no upgrades, and the demolisher with no upgrades. I like the demolisher because of the rear av of 11 low price, for the times when you just need immunity to s4 in close combat for your guard tanks. Likewise, the exterminator and vanilla russ main guns have decent targets of engagement that you can almost always be shooting something, while again being cheap.
To me, the most important quality of the russ is its price. I want the most tanks on the field as possible to establish weapon immunity as quickly as possible. To this end, expensive russes are liable to be destroyed early on before the enemies anti av14 weapons have been silenced, creating holes in your defense that the rest of the enemy force can exploit. If that happens, then the entire point of the tank column is lost, and you would have been better off with killing power instead of tank defense.
For example, let us review the las cannon multi melta punisher. 2 such tanks cost the same as 3 vanilla tanks. 4 such tanks cost the same as 6 vanilla tanks.
If your opponent kills 2 of your tanks before you silence their av14 weapons, you are left with either 2 expensive punishers or 4 vanilla russes. The enemy may be able to avoid the remaining punishers and get to your troops, but the 4 russes, while only vanilla, can still shield your forces. Your tanks were never meant to do the heavy killing anyway, so the relative destructive power of 2 expensive punishers versus 4 vanilla russes is of less import than the fact that its 2 av14 tanks compared to 4.
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Post by: tankboy145
Demolisher is great Ap2 large blast s10 shot that just ruins days but as is heavy, ordnance, and really short range it almost kills itself being so close.
Vanquisher is not that great. Running a vanq with pask and lascannon hull isnt too bad because he has his crack shot to give him a s9 main gun and a s10 lascannon if he doesnt move against vehicles
Punisher can be pretty scary as a bolter boat. Ive dropped daemon princes in a turn with the tank alone. Im not a fan of mixing weapons like lascannons and MM with it yet. its a bit pricey too.
LRBT is my favored choice as I like to keep my stuff cheap. Not bad for AV14 armor, long range gun, ap3 is nice against meq, its even got a chance to damage light armor, s8 insta kills t4 units, and its large blast!
Executioner with plasma cannons and lascannon hull is not to be messed with. I used it a game and dropped and entire thousand suns unit in 1 turn with just that tank. I love it but pricey.
Eradicators arent terrible and there great with the ignoring cover against GEQ's and +2 cover units. I see bolter boats as the best use for these for massed infantry fire power.
I have not used the exterminator yet but 4 s7 ap 4 twinlinked shots aren't terrible but arent amazing. Against hordes its only a couple shots, against meq it may not ven wound as its only ap4. And against most monstrous creatures will creature wounds but will still get good armor saves. With s7 it would also have some trouble against light armor but can still damage it. I feel that this tanks sponsons make it perform a certain role, as bolter boat will help against adding wounds and horde, with plasma against teq and meq/monstrous creatures and I myself will probably try the las hull and bolter sponsons to see how it performs. I have 1 on order but it is the 3rd edition one if im correct(just a really old model with a dude riding on the back)
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Post by: Red Corsair
Either way both parties seem to be forgetting... long fangs can split fire... This means no matter WHAT MIX OF WEAPONS you bring it can be useful. Long fangs win on cost and play style regardless.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
tankboy145 wrote:Demolisher is great Ap2 large blast s10 shot that just ruins days but as is heavy, ordnance, and really short range it almost kills itself being so close.
Vanquisher is not that great. Running a vanq with pask and lascannon hull isnt too bad because he has his crack shot to give him a s9 main gun and a s10 lascannon if he doesnt move against vehicles
Punisher can be pretty scary as a bolter boat. Ive dropped daemon princes in a turn with the tank alone. Im not a fan of mixing weapons like lascannons and MM with it yet. its a bit pricey too.
LRBT is my favored choice as I like to keep my stuff cheap. Not bad for AV14 armor, long range gun, ap3 is nice against meq, its even got a chance to damage light armor, s8 insta kills t4 units, and its large blast!
Executioner with plasma cannons and lascannon hull is not to be messed with. I used it a game and dropped and entire thousand suns unit in 1 turn with just that tank. I love it but pricey.
Eradicators arent terrible and there great with the ignoring cover against GEQ's and +2 cover units. I see bolter boats as the best use for these for massed infantry fire power.
I have not used the exterminator yet but 4 s7 ap 4 twinlinked shots aren't terrible but arent amazing. Against hordes its only a couple shots, against meq it may not ven wound as its only ap4. And against most monstrous creatures will creature wounds but will still get good armor saves. With s7 it would also have some trouble against light armor but can still damage it. I feel that this tanks sponsons make it perform a certain role, as bolter boat will help against adding wounds and horde, with plasma against teq and meq/monstrous creatures and I myself will probably try the las hull and bolter sponsons to see how it performs. I have 1 on order but it is the 3rd edition one if im correct(just a really old model with a dude riding on the back)
You dropped an entire unit. Of Thousand Sons. With an Executioner. In a single turn.  You, my friend, really have to be favored by the dice gods.How many 4++ saves did they fail?
Anyhow, you should seriously try Exterminators in a few games before writing them off-they might not sound spectacular, but they're the ultimate utility russ if you want to make use of hull weapons/sponsons without getting overly points-heavy, and 4 TL autocannon shots are often better than you think. I believe they're much better than they sound, especially if you choose the right upgrades.
58966
Post by: tankboy145
Hedkrakka wrote:
You dropped an entire unit. Of Thousand Sons. With an Executioner. In a single turn.  You, my friend, really have to be favored by the dice gods.How many 4++ saves did they fail?
Anyhow, you should seriously try Exterminators in a few games before writing them off-they might not sound spectacular, but they're the ultimate utility russ if you want to make use of hull weapons/sponsons without getting overly points-heavy, and 4 TL autocannon shots are often better than you think. I believe they're much better than they sound, especially if you choose the right upgrades.
It was a full 10 man squad with a sorcerer and I killed everything except the sorcerer. I think I might have put a wound on him, He didnt know the executioner had that many small plast shots and his guys were a little closer than normal and sure enough I managed to reck them up. I believe 3 of the shots hit spot on and the last 2 scattered only like 3 inches still doing 2 or 3 wounds a piece and the lascannon actually hit and wounded.
Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?
As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.
May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.
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Post by: Tomten
Ailaros wrote:Corollax wrote:The Leman Russ Punisher is bad. It's astoundingly bad. If you want S5 firepower, take an allied contingent of long fangs. They'll get the same number of shots on the target as your punisher turret, but they'll do so from 12" farther with the decency to be AP4 while doing so.
There is a lot that's missing from this statement.
Firstly, you have to ally space wolves, which you either may not want to do or may not have the models for. Plus, you can't just take devs, you have to take devs AND an HQ AND some troops. The ally tax is going to make this loadout rather expensive.
Secondly, 4 HB longfangs put down fewer hits than a punisher (8 to 11.5), and don't have the option to spend only 20 more points for a pair more heavy bolters. Comparing the longfangs to a bolter boat punisher, you're now looking at 8 hits against 14.5. Put another way, you're getting close to only having 2/3ds as many hits. The heavy bolters still have range (though only 6" more - remember, the russ can move and fire at full strength, unlike long fangs), and still have the Ap, but you've got to reach pretty far to say that the devs have better killing power.
Thirdly, it is much, much, MUCH easier to kill 5 dudes in power armor than a leman russ. Much. Furthermore, a russ will tend to still be able to fire at full effectiveness until it dies, whereas the long fangs start doing less and less damage as the models carrying the heavy bolters start to go down, meaning that you can make them moot without needing to actually wipe the squad. And that's to say nothing about secondary things like morale.
Fourthly, you can concentrate a lot more killing power onto a russ than on to longfangs. With a 4x HB dev squad, you're looking at 8 HB hits, but a russ can be upgraded to do the 11.5 with its basic weapons and then also shoot at stuff with multimeltas or plasma cannons.
Simply put, the punisher can put out a lot more dakka including of better quality, and it does it with better force concentration on a much more durable carrier, and is more simple, not requiring allies.
And you can take up to 9 of them, unlike your one longfang squad.
Can a punisher fire at two different units? The long fangs are also cheaper then the punisher (85 points to be precise)
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Post by: TheCaptain
Comparing Leman Russ Punisher V. Longfangs.
Wha.
What have I come in on?
Punisher confers cover AND armor saves.
No Twin linked. Heavy, thus slow.
Super expensive.
Str5 is a wildly awkward Str that isn't useful. Especially not at BS3
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Post by: Tomten
I think its good idea to scout a vehicle squadron consisting of demolishers.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
tankboy145 wrote:Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?
As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.
May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.
Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non- MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.
In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.
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Post by: tankboy145
Doesn't sound bad, I will probably stick with bolter boat as that is I believe what it comes with. I will also try the hull lascannon and bolter sponsons since it can also do some damage at vehicles. Maybe even the plasmas at one point. Im working on trying the different russes out but I hate when units get too expensive! especially tanks for when your opponent drops in some melta units and you lose a tank or 2 turn 1, nasty stuff. lol
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Post by: Ailaros
tankboy145 wrote:I will probably stick with bolter boat as that is I believe what it comes with.
Actually, the new russ kits are pretty sweet. Not only do they give you all the sponsons options, and in plastic too, but they do them in a really neat way. Instead of the guns and the kind of drum things that keep the sponson in place being one piece, now they're two. It's a drum with a mounting lug in it.
As such, you can put the drum into the sponson as normal, and so long as you don't glue them down, you can swap them out easily for different ones. They even stay in there pretty well without glue.
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Post by: kestril
Terminators and their equivalents. (Toughness 4 with a 2+ save)
Edit: "First Unread" doesn't always mean "the last post in the thread." Oops.
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Post by: tankboy145
Ailaros wrote:tankboy145 wrote:I will probably stick with bolter boat as that is I believe what it comes with.
Actually, the new russ kits are pretty sweet. Not only do they give you all the sponsons options, and in plastic too, but they do them in a really neat way. Instead of the guns and the kind of drum things that keep the sponson in place being one piece, now they're two. It's a drum with a mounting lug in it.
As such, you can put the drum into the sponson as normal, and so long as you don't glue them down, you can swap them out easily for different ones. They even stay in there pretty well without glue.
Oh yea I got quite a few of the newer russes but those are all my battle tanks lol. Just the other day I got a good deal on an exterminator leman russ but its an older model because the autocannons are metal. Damn rule change made my LRBT with sponsons garbage and thats all I got, except 4 of them are with out sponsons I believe but those once are all neat and painted and wethered lol I guess its time to buy more turrets lol.
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Post by: golan2072
Everyone seems to use them here in Israel and dislike the vanilla LRBT due to the Heavy rule. Personally I don't like the 24'' range, though...
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Post by: Tomten
golan2072 wrote:
Everyone seems to use them here in Israel and dislike the vanilla LRBT due to the Heavy rule. Personally I don't like the 24'' range, though...
Cant you outflank them with creed?
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Post by: MajorStoffer
The Punisher is not to be discounted; there are better anti-horde options out there, and as such, I tend to use it as a "here, make a bunch of saves, I hope you're lucky" tank.
It's bajillion shots mean it isn't half bad at flying circuses; Flying MCs really get annoyed with this tank, as does any unit which a small size.
See, blast template units are great, but there's a maximum possible wounds they can inflict, especially when targeting small units. My Executioner can wipe terminators, but my template is going to mean I'm only going to get a couple wounds. Punishers confer armour saves, but they make the enemy take enough of them to eventually fail.
As such, with the footslogging nature of 6th, I've found my punisher performs quite well; not brilliantly, as the BS3 is a liability, but it rarely fails to make back its cost. With Pask in a codex list, or with BS4 courtesy of Grizmund in the Armoured Company it becomes a good deal more deadly, but the price point is a bit high for my tastes.
That being said, the Punisher is not a versatile unit; it's more or less useless against vehicles, it's ok at anti-horde, and to an MEQ army, they're probably the least dangerous of all the Russ variants, but they remain a solid "ok" across the board.
I've actually found my Exterminators to be quite versatile, either as a mini-bolter boat, or as a vehicle/MC hunter.
Equipped with bolters, you've got 9 St 5 AP4 shots, and 4 twin linked St7 Ap4 shots; xenos hate this thing, and it reliably hits and wounds targets of a wide range reliably. Light vehicles don't like this tank, and you're more or less guaranteed to kill something, even if you're fighting a TEQ list.
The other option I use is Lascannon, MM sponsons, and go hunt vehicles and MCs. The autocannons are a good source of wounds/glancing hits, and the sponson options just do horrible things to the aforementioned targets, and in a pinch, it can go after things like Terminators, Paladins, Nobs and such with some efficiency.
Note, YMMV, as I run this tank as my Company Command Tank for my Armoured Company, and as such, it's BS4, and I usually buy an extra hull point for it, as the second option in particular loses a lot of power due to BS3.
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Post by: Tomten
Why would you take a punisher when there are much better choices?
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Post by: sudojoe
Divination punisher squadron of 2 tanks minimum?
Rerolling 40 shots from just the main cannons is nothing to sneeze at. Chuck on 3 HB and a stubber or two in there and it's ork level of shooting for volume. Pretty much guaranteed to burn down everything infantry or MC based shy of a iron arm nid or wraith lord in one go and possibly those too with just sheer volume)
Personally my favorite version has been the exterminator with lascannon and HB sponsons as I use it mostly in a long range platform unsupported for target versitality.
I've been more and more swapping my LR's to the anti-infantry roles and my infantry and air power to the anti-tank roles in 6th but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing.
Also, anyone use the eradicator anymore? I've been finding it to be kind of good lately mostly cause I seem to face it off against alot of other guard, tau, eldar, and necron warrior blocks. Vs marines it just forces saves but still been kind of useful from a TAC perspective.
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Post by: 797th Red Tigers
If you see your opponent rolling out Orks, 'Nids, or Tau, use the Punisher.
You will vaporize the enemy.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
797th Red Tigers wrote:If you see your opponent rolling out Orks, 'Nids, or Tau, use the Punisher.
You will vaporize the enemy.
Not to mention Eldar/ DE. I hate seeing one on the board when I bring my poor, poor AV10/11 boats and Dark Brethren.
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Post by: Testify
Hedkrakka wrote:tankboy145 wrote:Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?
As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.
May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.
Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non- MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.
In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.
Those sponsons aren't going to do an awful lot against the only thing that the Exterminator has over the Punisher, i.e. anti-light vehicle. S5 will bounce off tanks, and against infantry still doesn't make it as affective as the Punisher.
For comparison, against MEQ the Punisher gets 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 0.83 kills, with the HBs adding 1 to that. The Punisher gives 2.2 kills, plus the HBs. And whether or not you should devote so many points to a tank that is weak against both infantry *and* vehicls, as opposed to one that is somewhat strong against infantry and weak against vehicles, is debatable.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Testify wrote:Hedkrakka wrote:tankboy145 wrote:Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?
As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.
May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.
Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non- MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.
In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.
Those sponsons aren't going to do an awful lot against the only thing that the Exterminator has over the Punisher, i.e. anti-light vehicle. S5 will bounce off tanks, and against infantry still doesn't make it as affective as the Punisher.
For comparison, against MEQ the Punisher gets 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 0.83 kills, with the HBs adding 1 to that. The Punisher gives 2.2 kills, plus the HBs. And whether or not you should devote so many points to a tank that is weak against both infantry *and* vehicls, as opposed to one that is somewhat strong against infantry and weak against vehicles, is debatable.
OK, Mathhammer time. Again. I hate Mathhammer.
Punisher vs. Exterminator
vs. AV11 (say, a Rhino)
Range: 24"
The Punisher w/ HB sponsons gets 29 shots, 14.5 hits, 2.08 glances.
The Exterminator w/ HB sponsons gets 4 S7 & 9 S5 shots, 3 S7 & 4.5 S5 hits, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.
Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 0.75 glance.
Exterminator: same as above, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.
Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 1.0 pen, 0.5 glances.
Performance: Even at optimum range, the Punisher loses to the Exterminator. 0:3
vs. MEQ (T4, 3+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 9.67 wounds, 3.22 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 5.5 wounds, 1.83 unsaved wounds
Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
Exterminator: As above, 1,83 unsaved wounds
Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.83 unsaved wound
Performance: The Punisher is better when its cannon is in range, but loses heavily if it isn't. 1:5
vs. GEQ (T3, 5+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 12.08 wounds, 9.31 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds
Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: As above, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds
Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 ID wounds
Performance: Again, the Punisher kicks ass at close range but is helpless otherwise. 2:7.
Summary: The HB Punisher is only better at really close range against infantry targets, and is comparatively poor against AV11 transports, and can't hurt AV12 at all. That's the main issue with the Punisher. If you only look at the number of shots, you're not going to get the big picture. Add the fact that the Exterminator is some 30 points cheaper, gets at least one extra round of shooting due to its longer range and all you lose in return is 1 point of rear armor, the Punisher is just no match unless you face an assault horde like Nids or maybe Orks. In a TAC list, I'd opt for the Exterminator first. The Punisher is good, I mean very good when it has the right targets, but getting that target in range is problematic with heavy vehicle+short range. That's my reasoning anyway, but yours is a valid point of view too.
58966
Post by: tankboy145
Hedkrakka wrote: Testify wrote:Hedkrakka wrote:tankboy145 wrote:Now about the exerminator whats are some good loadouts for them?
As I mentioned above I have 1 on the way but I believe since its an older model it will be bolter boat or hull las and bolter sponsons. I wasnt sure if plasma cannons or anything else was questionable but I wont be able to use anyways.
May try ordering a newer model to experiment a little. But I would agree, I wouldnt say its useless or not worth it but it can seriously take some fire power.
Depends on who you're playing and the points limit, really. I like bringing full HB and use them to put wounds on non- MEQ and take out some transports. If you want to, you can get PC or MM sponsons, which give you extra anti-infantry/anti-tank respectively, and if you're feeling really fancy, Pask can be considered with his crazy improved armor penetration which turns the exterminator autocannon into a Wazdakka Dakkakannon which is BS4 TL. All of these upgrades are super expensive (and ultimately not worth it), though, and as pointed out by others, not that good at making stuff explode. Don't forget the hull lascannon option if you go vehicle hunting, Pask basically turns it into a S10 weapon. Even without him, the Exterminator is one of the best Russes to get a hull LC, since its range matches the main gun's and can support anti-vehicle efforts, albeit at BS3. I don't like it, but it can work.
In my experience, the Exterminator's main advantage is psychological. People don't believe it can do a lot of damage, so they ignore an AV14 vehicle in favor of others. I may have been lucky, but I've seen many opponents shoot at Chimeras or even snapfire at Vendettas before shooting at it. 3 S7 hits per turn+sponsons+hull weapon aren't bad at all, and the Exterminator is super reliable. Battle Cannons, Eradicator Nova Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Demolisher Siege cannons can scatter off completely-the Exterminator Autocannon doesn't. You won't get any spectacular results, but a few hits every turn reliably. Best? No. Acceptable? Certainly. That's my opinion anyway.
Those sponsons aren't going to do an awful lot against the only thing that the Exterminator has over the Punisher, i.e. anti-light vehicle. S5 will bounce off tanks, and against infantry still doesn't make it as affective as the Punisher.
For comparison, against MEQ the Punisher gets 3 hits, 2.5 wounds and 0.83 kills, with the HBs adding 1 to that. The Punisher gives 2.2 kills, plus the HBs. And whether or not you should devote so many points to a tank that is weak against both infantry *and* vehicls, as opposed to one that is somewhat strong against infantry and weak against vehicles, is debatable.
OK, Mathhammer time. Again. I hate Mathhammer.
Punisher vs. Exterminator
vs. AV11 (say, a Rhino)
Range: 24"
The Punisher w/ HB sponsons gets 29 shots, 14.5 hits, 2.08 glances.
The Exterminator w/ HB sponsons gets 4 S7 & 9 S5 shots, 3 S7 & 4.5 S5 hits, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.
Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 0.75 glance.
Exterminator: same as above, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.
Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 1.0 pen, 0.5 glances.
Performance: Even at optimum range, the Punisher loses to the Exterminator. 0:3
vs. MEQ (T4, 3+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 9.67 wounds, 3.22 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 5.5 wounds, 1.83 unsaved wounds
Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
Exterminator: As above, 1,83 unsaved wounds
Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.83 unsaved wound
Performance: The Punisher is better when its cannon is in range, but loses heavily if it isn't. 1:5
vs. GEQ (T3, 5+)
Range: 24"
Punisher: 14.5 hits, 12.08 wounds, 9.31 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 4.5 S5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds
Range: 36"
Punisher: 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, 3.75 unsaved wounds
Exterminator: As above, 3.75 unsaved wounds + 2.5 ID wounds
Range: 48"
Punisher: nothing.
Exterminator: 3 S7 hits, 2.5 ID wounds
Performance: Again, the Punisher kicks ass at close range but is helpless otherwise. 2:7.
Summary: The HB Punisher is only better at really close range against infantry targets, and is comparatively poor against AV11 transports, and can't hurt AV12 at all. That's the main issue with the Punisher. If you only look at the number of shots, you're not going to get the big picture. Add the fact that the Exterminator is some 30 points cheaper, gets at least one extra round of shooting due to its longer range and all you lose in return is 1 point of rear armor, the Punisher is just no match unless you face an assault horde like Nids or maybe Orks. In a TAC list, I'd opt for the Exterminator first. The Punisher is good, I mean very good when it has the right targets, but getting that target in range is problematic with heavy vehicle+short range. That's my reasoning anyway, but yours is a valid point of view too.
Thanks for thw mathhammer. I rely on it most of the time. The only reason I dont take the punisher is because Its just so expensive. I mean its only 30pts more than the exterminator with bolters but those are upgrades spent else where in the army. I would assume bolter boat exterminator is better than adding a hull lascannon then as well.
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Post by: Gibblets
unless you're fighting GEQ hordes I'd say go with the hull LC everytime. It complements your main weapons range and target priorities. It also allows the tank to engage AV11+ with some reliability at the cost of horde wounds. There's rarely a time that a HB will be more useful then a LC. In fact I'd say it's a toss up between a HF or HB. The HF is good for some CC deterant or cover flushing.
67384
Post by: Tomten
Just take the standard LR.
58966
Post by: tankboy145
I normally do as thats my favorite variant but Im experimenting with some of the other russes to see if theres other viable options.
67384
Post by: Tomten
tankboy145 wrote:
I normally do as thats my favorite variant but Im experimenting with some of the other russes to see if theres other viable options.
Its good to try out the different variants.
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Post by: Ross74H
I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.
Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!
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Post by: Tomten
Ross74H wrote:I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.
Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!
Why dont you take sponsons?
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Post by: Peregrine
Tomten wrote:Ross74H wrote:I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.
Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!
Why dont you take sponsons?
Because of the ordnance rule. Please read the entire thread for context before replying.
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Post by: tankboy145
Ross74H wrote:I have only used the LRBT and the demolisher. Even then i dont have much luck with the dice so reluctant to try out the others.
Mind you, I run mine sponsonless as well!
I used to run some demolishers but they were targeted fast and with their short range usually got 1 shot before they were assaulted and died.
So lately Ive only run the LRBT, and I also dont equip them with sponsons. Just received an exterminator and will probably run it with lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons.
Executioner is powerful but if it scatters to much and doesnt get enough hits it may not get its points back and becomes to expensive.
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Post by: Griddlelol
tankboy145 wrote:*Insert any blast Russ here* is powerful but if it scatters too much and doesn't get enough hits it may not get its points back and becomes too expensive.
That's not really a valid argument for not taking one. I've had games where my LRBT hasn't done a thing, it's rare but my last game against BA and tyranids come to mind. Doesn't stop me from taking one, especially considering people spend a lot of time shooting it even if it does scatter constantly. In fact the Executioner can benefit from scatters more than the others because of the small template.
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Post by: Tomten
Is it better to take a heavy stubber? I mean that if you get a weapon destroyed then its a 50% chance that your big gun goes away but if you take a heavy stubber then its just a 33% chance.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
To destroy a weapon, they need to penetrate, then roll one specific number- an approximate 17% chance AFTER you suffer a penetrating hit. Penetrating a Russ is difficult as long as you don't shoot it from behind. Plus, you have another 50% buffer from your hull weapon. So no, it's not worth the points to get a heavy stubber just to improve your chance of retaining your turret weapon. The only Russ I'd consider putting a stubber on would be the Punisher. You know, dakka dakka dakka dakka dakka...dakka?
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Post by: Griddlelol
Hedkrakka wrote:To destroy a weapon, they need to penetrate, then roll one specific number- an approximate 17% chance AFTER you suffer a penetrating hit.
Indeed, the same odds as blowing it up, which is why I don't take the whole "you need to protect the main weapon" arguments very seriously.
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Post by: Tomten
So you just take a naked LR?
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Post by: sudojoe
Exterminator with LC + HB sponsons. Force the HB wounds on the meat shield units alot of squishy armies put up front and then froce them to take the AC or LC wounds on their HQ which might be next closest before you know it.
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Post by: Tomten
sudojoe wrote:Exterminator with LC + HB sponsons. Force the HB wounds on the meat shield units alot of squishy armies put up front and then froce them to take the AC or LC wounds on their HQ which might be next closest before you know it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Its just 6 shots which 3 Will probably hit. Its not great anti infantry.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Tomten wrote: sudojoe wrote:Exterminator with LC + HB sponsons. Force the HB wounds on the meat shield units alot of squishy armies put up front and then froce them to take the AC or LC wounds on their HQ which might be next closest before you know it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its just 6 shots which 3 Will probably hit. Its not great anti infantry.
Yeah. Not to mention the AC is hardly an HQ killer.
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Post by: Tomten
But the LRBT can kill almost everything.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
It can, but it can completely miss, too. The Exterminator doesn't miss. That's the main reason to take it (not that it's better than the LRBT). Much less destructive potential with the main gun, but more reliability and ability to play with sponson and hull weapon options.
Naked LRBTs are best value for the points if you're going for flexibility IMO. I have a star-crossed love for the Exterminator, and it works too, but it's a little more points heavy due to the upgrades it needs.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Hedkrakka wrote:
It can, but it can completely miss, too. The Exterminator doesn't miss. That's the main reason to take it (not that it's better than the LRBT). Much less destructive potential with the main gun, but more reliability and ability to play with sponson and hull weapon options.
Naked LRBTs are best value for the points if you're going for flexibility IMO. I have a star-crossed love for the Exterminator, and it works too, but it's a little more points heavy due to the upgrades it needs.
The LRBT rarely misses with the generous blast rules and the way cover works now. Since cover is on a model-by-model basis rather than a unit basis, then the enemy must bunch up into small clusters if they all want to fit behind cover, which means that the template can get upwards of 8 hits on a squad. If they wish to spread out (limiting the templates to ~3 hits minimum) then some of the models will be out of cover to be focus-fired by some other portion of your army (for example, plasma-gun veterans).
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Unit1126PLL wrote:
The LRBT rarely misses with the generous blast rules and the way cover works now. Since cover is on a model-by-model basis rather than a unit basis, then the enemy must bunch up into small clusters if they all want to fit behind cover, which means that the template can get upwards of 8 hits on a squad. If they wish to spread out (limiting the templates to ~3 hits minimum) then some of the models will be out of cover to be focus-fired by some other portion of your army (for example, plasma-gun veterans).
That may be true, but still, the Exterminator hits more reliably-a multiple-shot TL weapon is statistically more likely to hit than a scattering blast template. That's not to say it's better, as I have explained in my post. It's basically a large anti- MEQ blast vs. a generalist main gun+hull weapon/sponson support. It's a matter of taste.
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Post by: Ailaros
MajorStoffer wrote:That being said, the Punisher is not a versatile unit; it's more or less useless against vehicles, it's ok at anti-horde, and to an MEQ army, they're probably the least dangerous of all the Russ variants, but they remain a solid "ok" across the board.
Hedkrakka wrote:The HB Punisher is only better at really close range against infantry targets, and is comparatively poor against AV11 transports, and can't hurt AV12 at all.
I thought I'd address both of these together.
You can certainly set up parameters wherein punishers look bad compared to other russes, but what you look at it more holistically, the punisher rules. Anything within 30" (don't forget they can move and fire) is a target, and with good sponsons, they can beat the hell out of anything.
Yes, the exterminator can certainly handle AV12 better than a punisher, but the exterminator still isn't great against AV12. Bring that armor value down to 10, and the punisher easily wins the contest. Shoot one at a venom some time, and you'll see just how much damage they can do.
Yes, the executioner can get more kills on bunched up terminators at 40" away, but lets present a more realistic situation. Terminators are much more likely than not to be closer than that, and with their larger base, it's pretty darn easy to displace out to one model hit per hit rolled. And then they get their invul save. A punisher beats executioners against terminators in most circumstances.
The list goes on. It's better against MEq in most circumstances than a LRBT. It's better against MCs than anything in the codex. Pretty much the only common thing that the punisher doesn't hands-down beat is infantry in cover relative to the eradicator and multi-wound T5 infantry as the demolisher. You can find a few circumstances where the punisher is relatively worse than any given specific other variant, but most of the time, they're just doing more damage.
Throw on good hull weapons, and they're hurting anything, and with a non-ordnance, they can fire everything at once, which is terribly convenient against things like fliers and monstrous creatures and... well... anything that both a multimelta and a heavy bolter equivalent is capable of damaging.
Which is a lot.
Which is why they're not only versatile, but a good idea.
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Post by: Corollax
Punisher, vs. AV10: 10*(1/2)*(1/3) = 3.33 hp, 1.67 pens
Exterminator, vs. AV10: 4*(3/4)*(2/3) = 2 hp, 1.5 pens
Punisher, vs. AV11: 10*(1/2)*(1/6) = 1.67 hp, 0.0 pens
Exterminator, vs. AV11: 4*(3/4)*(1/2) = 1.5 hp, 1.0 pens
Punisher, vs. AV12: lol
Exterminator, vs. AV12: 4*(3/4)*(1/3) = 1hp, 0.5 pens
So for anti-vehicular purposes, the Exterminator is a more reliable choice, since it can actually manage to do something respectable against middling armor values. And since it's also 40 points cheaper...
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Post by: Ailaros
... but the punisher is better against AV10.
Plus, don't forget sponsons. Yes, if you give anti-tank sponsons to both exterminators and punishers, the exterminator will still always be better against AV12 and 11. The punisher is still going to be good against these targets, properly equipped, and, more importantly, are always still going to be equal to or better against the exterminator against literally everything else in the game.
Which is why it's 30 points more expensive, and why it's more versatile.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Ailaros wrote:... but the punisher is better against AV10.
Plus, don't forget sponsons. Yes, if you give anti-tank sponsons to both exterminators and punishers, the exterminator will still always be better against AV12 and 11. The punisher is still going to be good against these targets, properly equipped, and, more importantly, are always still going to be equal to or better against the exterminator against literally everything else in the game.
Which is why it's 30 points more expensive, and why it's more versatile.
Oh, the Punisher gets sponsons. So what? So does the Exterminator. I fail to see what difference sponsons make when the options and costs are the same. When comparing non-ordnance Russes, what you should be doing is comparing the main guns. And I'm sorry, but a gun with 24" range, AP- and no way to hurt AV12 at all can't be described as "versatile" by any stretch of imagination.
Killing infantry, especially light infantry, is the area of specialization of the Punisher, so of course it's going to be better than the generalist Exterminator against them, but the Exterminator can hurt a wider range of targets (i.e. AV12), thus making it more versatile, without even considering the differences in cost and range.
Remember that 30 points means three more meltaguns or two more Lascannons, and with a 48" range, the Exterminator will always have something worthwhile to shoot at, even late in the game, a feature which the Punisher simply can't match.
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Post by: Ailaros
I don't know how I can make this much more clear.
An exterminator with anti-tank sponsons and a punisher with anti-tank sponsons are both equally good against AV13+, and are both pretty good at AV10-12, even though there is a slight quality difference one way or the other depending on which specific AV we're talking about.
Put another way, they're roughly the same against most vehicles in this configuration.
And then the punisher is way better against everything else.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
The comparison makes no sense because you can get the same thing everywhere, the differences are the rear AV, range, cost and most importantly, the main gun. The Exterminator wins convincingly at all but the first of these points, and is thus the better option for versatility. The kitted Punisher may be better, I would dispute that claim too, but that would be the topic of another thread.
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Post by: Trickstick
Hedkrakka wrote:Remember that 30 points means three more meltaguns or two more Lascannons...
I really dislike these sort of statements. This is only true if you already have the carriers in your list but for some reason didn't use their weapon slots. You are not taking into account the carrier cost. If you had said "upgrade 6 flamers to meltas", that would have made sense. You never really get the chance to pay 30 points for some meltaguns.
Sorry, it just annoys me.
As for the russ, I am coming to the conclusion that none of the variants are rubbish, they all have good and bad points. The punisher may be slightly over costed, but that is probably because people would have been crying that it was broken if it was 20-30 points cheaper.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
That statement is just an example. I'll avoid similar examples in the future just for you. That said, I'd encourage you to work on your annoyance threshold.
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Post by: Ailaros
45 points can get you a lascannon and a pair of meltaguns, sure.
45 points could also get you a lascannon and two MULTIMELTAS, all on an AV14 platform that can move and shoot.
Hull weapons on a leman russ are a steal. Some of the best value weapon upgrades you can take.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Ailaros wrote:45 points can get you a lascannon and a pair of meltaguns, sure.
45 points could also get you a lascannon and two MULTIMELTAS, all on an AV14 platform that can move and shoot.
Hull weapons on a leman russ are a steal. Some of the best value weapon upgrades you can take.
True.
I'm tired of saying this, but the Exterminator has the same options for the same additional cost, and thus these constitute no advantage over the Exterminator.
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Post by: Ailaros
You said that the advantage of the exterminator is against AV12 which the punisher can't hurt. The punisher can hurt AV12 if it has sponsons. Therefore, it's not a valid argument.
Furthermore, if we're comparing both tanks with sponsons, the exterminator is only a bit better against AV11 and 12. Meanwhile, the punisher is much better against everything else.
Take the exterminator if you are willing to sacrifice being good against lots of things in order to be slightly better at a narrower range of things. Of course, you're going to be taking a vehicle that is less versatile.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Having a weapon that is "effective" against tanks and a weapon that is great against light infantry doesn't make you versatile.
A versatile unit should:
1-Never sit around, find something to shoot at every turn or at least threaten multiple enemy units,
2-Have weapons that are individually effective against multiple enemy types (i.e. not a collection of weapons that are effective against different enemy types),
3-Be able to respond to changes in the battlefield situation effectively.
The Punisher fails at all three points.
1-Its range is limited, thus it often can't find stuff to shoot at effectively. You'll likely argue that you add a hull lascannon, but a single LC shot isn't worth it for 195 pts+sponsons, even on a heavy AV14 chassis. Everything else only works at short ranges, unless you take HB/PC sponsons.
2-The Punisher Gattling Cannon is only effective against light/medium armored infantry and AV10 vehicles, which are rare unless you're facing Land Speeder spam, Orks or DE. Taking sponsons that are potentially effective vs. tanks doesn't negate this problem. You should also ask yourself if two BS3 MM that may or may not be able to see the target are effective AT anyway.
3-Being slow and lacking in reach, the Punisher can't react to anything. You simply go after your initial objectives or drift without a target for several turns.
Consider the fact that you're constantly ignoring the cost of the punisher, and that the same sponsons have the same effect on the other chassis with a gun that can take anything except AV14. So, the range and comparatively limited scope of the main gun makes the Punisher less versatile than the Exterminator (and indeed, other Russ variants).
Again, that's not saying that the Punisher is bad-quite the contrary. It's just that the Punisher has nothing to do with versatility-quite the contrary, it's quite specialized and it does its specific task very well.
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Post by: Red Corsair
I find it hilarious that the best example for the punishers AT capability is against cheap fast transports and skimmers. Especially the DE ones which will have NS meaning your main gun will likely never fire a round at it. If your firing it at an ork truck your going to lose the game because your playing orks and you chose to fire a punisher canon at a truck lol. If dealing with speeders they will get the drop first with a MM more then likely. I like the punisher but it is insane to claim it has decent AA or AT capability, it's great for infantry just make a dakka boat.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Red Corsair wrote:I find it hilarious that the best example for the punishers AT capability is against cheap fast transports and skimmers. Especially the DE ones which will have NS meaning your main gun will likely never fire a round at it. If your firing it at an ork truck your going to lose the game because your playing orks and you chose to fire a punisher canon at a truck lol. If dealing with speeders they will get the drop first with a MM more then likely. I like the punisher but it is insane to claim it has decent AA or AT capability, it's great for infantry just make a dakka boat.
+1 to that.
Punisher=infantry killing.
Punisher+full HB=infantry demolition.
Punisher+anything else=wasted points. (well, maybe PC would work, but probably still too expensive)
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Post by: Ailaros
The punisher cannon is not just good against light infantry.
It's better than a battlecannon against MEq, and it's better than almost everything against terminators and it's also better than any russ variant against monstrous creatures.
And, as mentioned, it can be good against vehicles.
The punisher is only versatile if you ignore the fact that, kitted properly, it can handle more targets better than any other russ.
Arguing that something is crappy by carte blanche ignoring huge swaths of its effective abilities makes for a pretty weak viewpoint.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Ailaros wrote:The punisher cannon is not just good against light infantry.
It's better than a battlecannon against MEq, and it's better than almost everything against terminators and it's also better than any russ variant against monstrous creatures.
And, as mentioned, it can be good against vehicles.
The punisher is only versatile if you ignore the fact that, kitted properly, it can handle more targets better than any other russ.
Arguing that something is crappy by carte blanche ignoring huge swaths of its effective abilities makes for a pretty weak viewpoint.
Seriously, how many hits are you assuming per Battlecannon shot?
vs. MEQ (cover saves scale linearly, so no need to consider them)
BC - assume average 4 hits, 3.33 wounds, 3.33 unsaved wounds
or assume 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds
PGC- 10 hits, 6.67 wounds, 2.22 unsaved wounds
Never mind that the BC gets at least one extra shot due to the range difference, and the differences in cost. Don't start whimpering about sponsons again, comparing a 200+-point vehicle to a 150-point vehicle is pointless.
"It can be good against vehicles" is plain ridiculous, I'm not taking that one seriously. Anything is good against AV10, and your precious Punisher can't take down anything else.
Oh, and I'm also sure it's much better than everything against Termies and MCs. Better than an Executioner, for example (which would have been contending for most versatile were it not for its high cost). Laughed and ignored.
What does "kitted properly" mean? From your earlier posts, I believe that would be MM sponsons and a hull LC. Colossal waste of points to get a weapon that can hurt something, a weapon that can hurt something else, and a weapon that can't hurt anything, and the tank is still very short ranged and cumbersome, and thus inflexible.
Going with your definition:
-a Valkyrie w/MRP is more versatile than a Vendetta,
-it's a good idea to throw pintle mounted weapons and/or HB sponsons on a Vanquisher,
-a CCS with PF, one melta, one plasma, one flamer and one sniper is versatile (hey, technically it can hurt anything!).
I don't think I need to say more.
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Post by: ChocolateGork
The punisher MIGHT be able to hurt anything but if you do the math its incredibly unlikely and it has a tiny range
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Post by: Ailaros
All right people, you want me to list them all out for you? Let's assume that both tanks have hull lascannons and sponson multimeltas.
Punisher vs. Exterminator
AV10: punisher
AV11: exterminator
AV12: exterminator
AV13: equal
AV14: equal
T4Sv6: punisher
T4Sv6 in cover: punisher
T3Sv5: punisher
T3Sv5 in cover: punisher
T3Sv5 w/aegis: punisher
T4Sv3: punisher
T4Sv3 in cover: punisher
T4Sv3 w/aegis: punisher
T4Sv2: punisher
T6Sv2: punisher
T6Sv3: punisher
Look at that again. The punisher is better than the exterminator at almost everything. It is more versatile. End of. I'd also note that the only time that the exterminator is much better is against AV12 - a target type that the exterminator isn't that effective against.
Now, let's try that again against the LRBT:
AV10: punisher
AV11: punisher
AV12: LRBT
AV13: LRBT
AV14: equal (because you're going to be using sponsons)
T4Sv6: punisher
T4Sv6 in cover: punisher
T3Sv5: punisher
T3Sv5 in cover: punisher
T3Sv5 w/aegis: punisher
T4Sv3: LRBT
T4Sv3 in cover: punisher
T4Sv3 w/aegis: punisher
T4Sv2: punisher
T6Sv2: punisher
T6Sv3: punisher
Once again, the punisher walks away with it.
What's more important here, even, is that it's not just more versatile than one tank, it's more versatile than ALL tanks, which is a much harder feat to accomplish.
The punisher can handle more things than any other tank. It is more versatile. A properly equipped punisher can handle many things well. You have to ignore the math to come to a different conclusion.
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Post by: alarmingrick
But I'm not equipping EITHER of the tanks with a hull las or MM sponsons.
Now redo the math. The Punisher is too expensive before I make it outrageously expensive.
The LRBT is good with just a HHB, IMHO. If I'm putting sponsons on it, it's a Demolisher, Executioner
or an Exterminator. You're pouring more points onto something to make it better. It's like throwing
points into a CCS or any IG unit to make them SM, which they'll never be.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
I hate talking about people rather than arguments, but you're forcing me to. Seriously, Ailaros, you need to stop ignoring select portions of the argument just to believe you're in the right. If both tanks have a hull LC and sponson multimeltas, you already beat the point, since you're not considering the differences between the Punisher and the Exterminator, and once again you're ignoring the fact that the Exterminator gets at least one extra round of shooting due to its range (in which case most of the points turn in its favor), ignoring cost issues, and even your math is wrong and manipulative.
The EAC can glance AV13, so the exterminator is better against AV13. Cover saves make no difference whatsoever, since the enemy gets them against both tanks, they're just there to make the areas where the Punisher is better seem more broad. That alone shows that your intention is to prove yourself right rather than impartially look at the facts. I conceded multiple times that the Punisher is a great tank and the PGC is great against infantry and AV10, but that doesn't make the tank versatile. I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over-look at the earlier posts if you finally decide to understand why.
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Post by: Ailaros
Yes, any russ can take the same sponsons. This does not make it a control variable, though, as sponsons mean different things to different russes based on what their turret weapon is.
For example, a pair of multimelta sponsons won't make a demolisher very much more versatile, but it certainly will make a punisher.
Discounting hull weapons on a russ is like discounting special weapons in a vet squad.
As for your comments, helldrakka, I've read them all up until this point, and have been replying in kind. Arguments that punishers are bad aren't based on fact. Arguments that exterminators are better at a small number of things than a punisher does not make them more versatile over all. I mean, a vanquisher can handle AV14 better than either a punisher or an exterminator, but does that make it a more versatile tank? No. You have to look at things comprehensively.
And then, as mentioned, there's the definition of versatility itself. In order to be versatile, in my book, something has to be able to handle a lot of target types WELL. So what if the exterminator can hurt AV13? It doesn't do that job well by any stretch of the imagination.
This whole thread isn't devoted to what's the best russ variant to blow up rhinos, it's devoted to what's the overall best against the most targets. Everything you've said up until this point looks at things too narrowly to answer the broader question.
11
Post by: ph34r
You are loading your initial conditions Ailaros. Why would we always assume to be taking max sponsons + hull gun? That is 45p of bloat in many cases. When comparing that loadout on a LRBT, the LRBT is obviously going to be bad because it can't shoot its main gun with its 45p of sponsons!
Combining extremely high strength AT with extremely low strength AT is obviously going to give you the best overall results. That should be apparent. The real question is, are those 45p of sponsons worth it? Are LR hull vehicles worth it at all compared to artillery? I find the 6" movement to be somewhat crippling for a punisher in my experience, even if every time it fires it wipes out a rhino or landspeeder, you just are not going to get there soon enough.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Ailaros wrote:Yes, any russ can take the same sponsons. This does not make it a control variable, though
Uh.
That's exactly what a control variable is.
Also.
Leman Russ Annihilator is still the absolute best for versatility.
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Post by: Glocknall
It is seriously silly to try and compare the Punisher to any other Leman Russ in the codex. It is a very niche tank no matter what sponsons you put on it.
10 shots from the cannon miss straight out of the gate. 7 of those wound MEQs, of which you might net 3 kills.
Against TEQs you might net 1 kill. No way in hell is a Executioner not better than those numbers.
Furthermore range is always an issue. AV 14 is great but a lot of units are very nasty the closer they get to the tank. 24" is just not a lot of cushion to keep such an obvious target alive. See Land Raider if you doubt this....
Punisher is great on paper but its like a lot o units, once someone has blundered into its sights they will not do so again.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Ailaros wrote:Yes, any russ can take the same sponsons. This does not make it a control variable, though, as sponsons mean different things to different russes based on what their turret weapon is.
For example, a pair of multimelta sponsons won't make a demolisher very much more versatile, but it certainly will make a punisher.
Discounting hull weapons on a russ is like discounting special weapons in a vet squad.
As for your comments, helldrakka, I've read them all up until this point, and have been replying in kind. Arguments that punishers are bad aren't based on fact. Arguments that exterminators are better at a small number of things than a punisher does not make them more versatile over all. I mean, a vanquisher can handle AV14 better than either a punisher or an exterminator, but does that make it a more versatile tank? No. You have to look at things comprehensively.
And then, as mentioned, there's the definition of versatility itself. In order to be versatile, in my book, something has to be able to handle a lot of target types WELL. So what if the exterminator can hurt AV13? It doesn't do that job well by any stretch of the imagination.
This whole thread isn't devoted to what's the best russ variant to blow up rhinos, it's devoted to what's the overall best against the most targets. Everything you've said up until this point looks at things too narrowly to answer the broader question.
I see your fantasies are quite vivid. I keep saying "Punishers are good, but not versatile" and you keep somehow perverting what I post and claim I have tried to show Punishers are bad. I'm simply looking at things the way they are, rather than trying to make something work. It's a simple fact that an EAC can take wounds/ HPs off more types of enemies than the Punisher can. So does the EPC and the Battlecannon. You are claiming yourself that "The Punisher is better against this and that and this and that", and refuting your own argument. I know you can't get it into that head of yours, but I have been saying all along that the Punisher does its job superbly if it is in range, but lacks the reach, target breadth and genuine versatility/flexibility of the Exterminator. To make things even simpler for you: If you take multiple specialized weapons, you're either highly specialized (such as a bolter boat Punisher) or unfocused and wasteful (such as an Eradicator with MM sponsons, or your Punisher build). If you have weapons that are effective (not necessarily super effective) against most types of enemies, you're versatile (such as an Exterminator, Executioner or LRBT).
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Post by: ender502
Though you have to consider sponsos when comparing the LRBT against the Punisher (b/c ordinance) you do not need to do that for the Punisher/Exterminator example.
v MEQ
Punisher, 20 shots, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 2.2 unsaved wounds per turn
Exterminator, 4 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, .75 unsaved wounds per turn
The question is do we modify for range? The exterminator has twice the range so should be able to hita target longer. Also, with a greater range you will have greater target selection options.
Also, since w edo not need to consider sponsons.... The exterminator is better versus AV 13
The Punisher is also 30 points more than the exterminator.
I think it is fair to say the Exterminator is better versus vehicles than the Punisher, while the Punisher is better versus infantry.
ender502
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Post by: Stormrider
As someone who has trumpeted the Punisher as a viable tank for the longest time, the thought if it being truly versatile now with the new rules hosing Ordnance tanks is pretty cool.
Punishers aren't intended to beat up vehicles, trying to argue its effectiveness (or lack thereof) against vehicles is a bonus to the respective arguments. It's S5, the only vehicles it should ever fired at vehicles out of a lack of targets. With proper sponson kitting (I use HB's for more S5 and a hull LC) it can take on any kind of model in the game.
Infantry in the open or bad cover, low model count units, independent characters, monstrous creatures, light vehicles, and anything foolish enough to deep strike near a Punisher will probably be blended up.
Exterminators are also the bomb, love 'em. Can effectively hurt most things in the game (albeit with less shots) and really can be quite a dangerous in great lists.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Stormrider wrote:As someone who has trumpeted the Punisher as a viable tank for the longest time, the thought if it being truly versatile now with the new rules hosing Ordnance tanks is pretty cool.
Punishers aren't intended to beat up vehicles, trying to argue its effectiveness (or lack thereof) against vehicles is a bonus to the respective arguments. It's S5, the only vehicles it should ever fired at vehicles out of a lack of targets. With proper sponson kitting (I use HB's for more S5 and a hull LC) it can take on any kind of model in the game.
Yes, Punishers are fully viable, even great, but specialized, i.e. the exact opposite of versatile. I like them too, but in the context of this thread, which is about versatility, they are pretty much fail. Think about other units in the game, or from other games.
1-Obliterators. Versatile? Yes. Why? They have a weapon (called "obliterator weapons") that is effective against everything. It's a single weapon that fires in different profiles to achieve that. Nothing ever sits idly by and only costs points. They don't pay for extra weapons that will be useless against whatever they're shooting at. The Punisher proposed by Ailaros (and seemingly, you) does. And they have a good reach, too. The Punisher doesn't have that either.
2-Devastators/Havocs/Long Fangs/Purgation Squads. Which squad is versatile, one with one heavy bolter, one missile launcher, one lascannon and one plasma cannon, or one with four missile launchers (or plasma cannons)? Definitely the latter. Versatility comes from WEAPONS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE AGAINST MULTIPLE ENEMY TYPES-not having multiple weapons that are very effective against different enemy types that sit there being useless whenever you fire at something else. You're paying for weapons, so every turn they sit around doing nothing is a waste of points.The loadout discussed for the Punisher costs 50% more than a naked Exterminator or LRBT, most of which go to waste if there is no viable target for the main gun in range.
I don't dispute the fact that Punishers can be better on the tabletop, but they're not versatile by any stretch of imagination.
BTW, about people deep striking near your tanks... The suicide melta tactic works great against anybody who brings in overpriced vehicles which are dangerous if they get in range, such as... Guess what? Players will likely take the chance, rather than be scared off, deep strike near your Punishers and melta them to death with good chances of success.
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Post by: Tomten
I think that i should try both the punisher and the exterminator. Automatically Appended Next Post: I think that i should try both the punisher and the exterminator.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Tomten wrote:I think that i should try both the punisher and the exterminator.
Great idea. It's quite easy to make an Exterminator turret without using any glue (except the plates on the turret, the searchlight and the hatch, of course) if you use a closed hatch. The Punisher Gatling cannon also fits the turret without gluing, so if you don't like either, you can easily go back to other tried and tested versions.
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Post by: tankboy145
For my own experiences over the past couple weeks I will say I am never taking a punisher against meq or teq. I had tried the bolter boat and even when there was many wounds my opponents managed to make them. Only successful time the bolter boat worked was when pask was in it and the tank killed 3 and a half daemon princes(took 2 wounds off one so i would say half) in 1 game. But against meq I will gladly stay with my LRBT's.
Since 6th has started most of my opponents and meta in general have learned that with hull points and glancing not doing any damage result to vehicles my LRBT's are a bit harder to kill, so at range most of my opponents dont even fire at my tanks. With that said I cant remember the last time I had a tank die when it was shot, they all die to assault, so also on that note with the punishers range unless all its PGC shots, MM shots, and lascannon kill its target it is probably going to die. So with a 24in range the tank will probably get 1 or maybe 2 effective turns of shooting before it is assaulted and most likely killed.
Until I start seeing more people having good use I dont think I want to bring out a tank that cost 200+ points. In my meta most of my opponents run up with transports or have some sort of deep striking units and I would would rather have a 150pt LRBT die without any use(although with the LRBT's range it will see something) than a 200+ tank dieing only to be a meatshield.
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Post by: Stormrider
Hedkrakka wrote:
Yes, Punishers are fully viable, even great, but specialized, i.e. the exact opposite of versatile. I like them too, but in the context of this thread, which is about versatility, they are pretty much fail. Think about other units in the game, or from other games.
More Vacuum-Hammer...
S5 is great against all infantry in the open and can wound all MC's. A bolterboat Punisher is a blender. I think you're confusing efficiency for versatility. The sponson weapons on a Russ are there for two reasons: 1. Synergize with the main gun (i.e. Plasma Cannons on an Executioner) or 2. As a "just in case" measure. I use my sponsons both ways and have never really felt that I wasted my points by taking them. Alairos is arguing point 2, he's saying that if you need some multi-meltas in a pinch, you'll have them instead of relying on another unit (melta vets) to pick up the slack and be at complete positional efficiency and have all of the weapons ready in order for them to fill the role.
The view that a tank must have optimum efficiency is quite narrow, Land Raiders are intrinsically inefficient at both of their jobs for their cost. Now, are they effective? Hell yeah. AV 14 all around is a tough nut to crack and they pretty much cannot be killed easily by anything except melta spam or Vendetta LC Spam.
[quote=]
1-Obliterators. Versatile? Yes. Why? They have a weapon (called "obliterator weapons") that is effective against everything. It's a single weapon that fires in different profiles to achieve that. Nothing ever sits idly by and only costs points. They don't pay for extra weapons that will be useless against whatever they're shooting at. The Punisher proposed by Ailaros (and seemingly, you) does. And they have a good reach, too. The Punisher doesn't have that either.
Obliterators are quite versatile, they're also Demons, +2 Armor and are one of the more powerful units in the game. They're also 70 points ( MoN is another 8 if you're smart) a model and cannot avoid being ID'd without MoN. They also cannot be a part of a vehicle squadron, are highly immobile and eat up one FOC choice in a pretty beefy codex. Sure they're versatile, they can also be run over by Kabalite splinter rifle fire. The Punisher is not built for anti-tank, it's just not, it's built to be an area denial unit/infantry spiller. If you need to kill/damage a lighter vehicle, it can, and it will be arguably just as effective as an Exterminator.
2-Devastators/Havocs/Long Fangs/Purgation Squads. Which squad is versatile, one with one heavy bolter, one missile launcher, one lascannon and one plasma cannon, or one with four missile launchers (or plasma cannons)? Definitely the latter. Versatility comes from WEAPONS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE AGAINST MULTIPLE ENEMY TYPES-not having multiple weapons that are very effective against different enemy types that sit there being useless whenever you fire at something else.
More Marine foot units that can still be killed by all kinds of small arms fire, have no invulnerable save and can still be trolled in Close combat. Yes they are certainly versatile, they're also not a Leman Russ. Conflating the argument is a sign you're losing it.
You're paying for weapons, so every turn they sit around doing nothing is a waste of points.The loadout discussed for the Punisher costs 50% more than a naked Exterminator or LRBT, most of which go to waste if there is no viable target for the main gun in range.
I don't dispute the fact that Punishers can be better on the tabletop, but they're not versatile by any stretch of imagination.
Are CCS's with PG's in your back line that are well out of range of everyone "wasting points"? No, it's a calculated risk you take with BS4 models that are infantry, especially if they're trying stay alive. Are Leman Russ' that are moving flat out to try to get to an ideal shooting location next turn wasting their points? No, this game is based upon tactics, not raw statistics. Statistics are great indicators of a unit's overall potential against other units, however, this game has variables that cannot be accounted for with raw numbers (terrain layout, turn length, objective locations, movement of your opponent, your opponent themselves), when you argue in a vacuum anything makes sense. I am not disagreeing that Punishers are inefficient points wise, but they're quite versatile.
BTW, about people deep striking near your tanks... The suicide melta tactic works great against anybody who brings in overpriced vehicles which are dangerous if they get in range, such as... Guess what? Players will likely take the chance, rather than be scared off, deep strike near your Punishers and melta them to death with good chances of success.
Does meltacide stop Marine players from bringing Land Raiders? NO! This has been a part of the game since at least 3rd. This requires very small positioning of your tank (i.e. hide your rear armor of 11) and some unit placement to deny the easy Deep Strike placement of that meltacide unit. This argument is bush league. If you honestly think I don't account for that, you're truly grasping at straws. I've taken highly immobile artillery for all of the 10 years that I have played IG, do you honestly think I have never seen that before?
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Post by: tankboy145
Of course it wont stop marine players from bringing land raiders its about termintors or death star units favorite transport(probably their only) short of a storm raven now if the army has it. With that said that land raider is more so protection for those termies. Because as mentioned is hard to crack but if it is their will be a ton of pain coming out of it. Generally easiest way to pop one too is to melta or assault it or get rreally lucky shooting and rolls with high strength low ap weapons. But if your already close to melta or assault it, then the power unit inside is also ready to rip you apart as well.
With guard you usually spam vehicles. Most lists I see on dakka everyone is spamming something in the list and if you have different units all mixed up then that list will probably fail. So will you actually spam 2 or 3 LRP with MM sponsons and hull lascannon or 2 that are kitted as bolter boats? In a marine army that land raiders job is probably just to deliver a more powerful unit up the board to destroy anything they come up against. With guard we spam our units because 1 will always fail, 2 will come close to getting the job done, and sometimes 3 might finish it. Ive seen this else where on dakka and Ive found it to be true. I just cant find myself paying 225pts for a tank that probably wont do a great job, and then to spend another 225pts on another tank to back up the first.
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Post by: Ross74H
Having actually used my tanks a bit recently (LRBT, Vanq, Exterminator, Eradicator, Executioner, Destroyer and Thunderer) I have found that actually, the most helpful game wise has been the Thunderer.
yes I know its FW, but its proved to be a pretty good unit, it doesnt look as potent as it is thanks to the lack of turret, but all the times I have used it, its been the only one of my three Russes to survive to the end of the game.
Might just be the way I play as I'm still a bit new at this but its provde itself good enough for me to build another pair of them. And if it gets moaned about I just play it as a Demolisher.
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Post by: Tomten
Hedkrakka wrote: Tomten wrote:I think that i should try both the punisher and the exterminator.
Great idea. It's quite easy to make an Exterminator turret without using any glue (except the plates on the turret, the searchlight and the hatch, of course) if you use a closed hatch. The Punisher Gatling cannon also fits the turret without gluing, so if you don't like either, you can easily go back to other tried and tested versions.
But sadly I didnt succed. I tried tried to magnetize the gun but when i realized that it would be a lot of work I just glued the battlecannon on the turret.
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Post by: tankboy145
Ross74H wrote:Having actually used my tanks a bit recently ( LRBT, Vanq, Exterminator, Eradicator, Executioner, Destroyer and Thunderer) I have found that actually, the most helpful game wise has been the Thunderer.
yes I know its FW, but its proved to be a pretty good unit, it doesnt look as potent as it is thanks to the lack of turret, but all the times I have used it, its been the only one of my three Russes to survive to the end of the game.
Might just be the way I play as I'm still a bit new at this but its provde itself good enough for me to build another pair of them. And if it gets moaned about I just play it as a Demolisher.
As i dont really have forgeworld Im not familiar with that type of russ variant, what does it have?
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Stormrider wrote: Hedkrakka wrote:
Yes, Punishers are fully viable, even great, but specialized, i.e. the exact opposite of versatile. I like them too, but in the context of this thread, which is about versatility, they are pretty much fail. Think about other units in the game, or from other games.
More Vacuum-Hammer...
S5 is great against all infantry in the open and can wound all MC's. A bolterboat Punisher is a blender. I think you're confusing efficiency for versatility. The sponson weapons on a Russ are there for two reasons: 1. Synergize with the main gun (i.e. Plasma Cannons on an Executioner) or 2. As a "just in case" measure. I use my sponsons both ways and have never really felt that I wasted my points by taking them. Alairos is arguing point 2, he's saying that if you need some multi-meltas in a pinch, you'll have them instead of relying on another unit (melta vets) to pick up the slack and be at complete positional efficiency and have all of the weapons ready in order for them to fill the role.
The view that a tank must have optimum efficiency is quite narrow, Land Raiders are intrinsically inefficient at both of their jobs for their cost. Now, are they effective? Hell yeah. AV 14 all around is a tough nut to crack and they pretty much cannot be killed easily by anything except melta spam or Vendetta LC Spam.
Hedkrakka wrote:
1-Obliterators. Versatile? Yes. Why? They have a weapon (called "obliterator weapons") that is effective against everything. It's a single weapon that fires in different profiles to achieve that. Nothing ever sits idly by and only costs points. They don't pay for extra weapons that will be useless against whatever they're shooting at. The Punisher proposed by Ailaros (and seemingly, you) does. And they have a good reach, too. The Punisher doesn't have that either.
Obliterators are quite versatile, they're also Demons, +2 Armor and are one of the more powerful units in the game. They're also 70 points ( MoN is another 8 if you're smart) a model and cannot avoid being ID'd without MoN. They also cannot be a part of a vehicle squadron, are highly immobile and eat up one FOC choice in a pretty beefy codex. Sure they're versatile, they can also be run over by Kabalite splinter rifle fire. The Punisher is not built for anti-tank, it's just not, it's built to be an area denial unit/infantry spiller. If you need to kill/damage a lighter vehicle, it can, and it will be arguably just as effective as an Exterminator.
2-Devastators/Havocs/Long Fangs/Purgation Squads. Which squad is versatile, one with one heavy bolter, one missile launcher, one lascannon and one plasma cannon, or one with four missile launchers (or plasma cannons)? Definitely the latter. Versatility comes from WEAPONS THAT ARE EFFECTIVE AGAINST MULTIPLE ENEMY TYPES-not having multiple weapons that are very effective against different enemy types that sit there being useless whenever you fire at something else.
More Marine foot units that can still be killed by all kinds of small arms fire, have no invulnerable save and can still be trolled in Close combat. Yes they are certainly versatile, they're also not a Leman Russ. Conflating the argument is a sign you're losing it.
You're paying for weapons, so every turn they sit around doing nothing is a waste of points.The loadout discussed for the Punisher costs 50% more than a naked Exterminator or LRBT, most of which go to waste if there is no viable target for the main gun in range.
I don't dispute the fact that Punishers can be better on the tabletop, but they're not versatile by any stretch of imagination.
Are CCS's with PG's in your back line that are well out of range of everyone "wasting points"? No, it's a calculated risk you take with BS4 models that are infantry, especially if they're trying stay alive. Are Leman Russ' that are moving flat out to try to get to an ideal shooting location next turn wasting their points? No, this game is based upon tactics, not raw statistics. Statistics are great indicators of a unit's overall potential against other units, however, this game has variables that cannot be accounted for with raw numbers (terrain layout, turn length, objective locations, movement of your opponent, your opponent themselves), when you argue in a vacuum anything makes sense. I am not disagreeing that Punishers are inefficient points wise, but they're quite versatile.
BTW, about people deep striking near your tanks... The suicide melta tactic works great against anybody who brings in overpriced vehicles which are dangerous if they get in range, such as... Guess what? Players will likely take the chance, rather than be scared off, deep strike near your Punishers and melta them to death with good chances of success.
Does meltacide stop Marine players from bringing Land Raiders? NO! This has been a part of the game since at least 3rd. This requires very small positioning of your tank (i.e. hide your rear armor of 11) and some unit placement to deny the easy Deep Strike placement of that meltacide unit. This argument is bush league. If you honestly think I don't account for that, you're truly grasping at straws. I've taken highly immobile artillery for all of the 10 years that I have played IG, do you honestly think I have never seen that before?
All you said is basically what I'm saying-the bolter boat punisher is great, I totally agree with that. What I don't agree with is that taking "just in case" weapons makes you versatile. I also argue that your second way to take sponsons is a waste of points. Two single shot BS3 weapons with a 12" effective range and arc of fire problems? No thanks. The tank is already pretty short ranged to begin with. If you said PC sponsons, I would be totally OK with that, the Punisher is the second best 2+ armor cracker after the Executioner anyway. If you said HB sponsons, I'd totally agree. But MM is pointless. If you're willing to give up 30 points for something that doesn't synergize with your main gun and may or may not be able to do something extra, be my guest, but my approach is clear-NIET.
And it's basically you confusing efficiency with versatility, you keep saying "the Punisher is great against this and that"-I know it is, nor do I dispute it. But it doesn't make you more versatile than an Exterminator, LRBT or Executioner, which all have a wider range of targets for their main gun and longer range as a bonus. I agree that your overpriced LC/ MM Punisher is more effective than the Exterminator-It just has nothing to do with versatility.
You're missing the point (or more likely, twisting the argument) on the examples. You're simply pointing out their counters but failing to see that they are not direct comparisons, but rather simple examples to show Ailaros (and yourself) why your definition of "versatility" is flawed. All the more reason to believe that you're so frustrated about being wrong that you're looking for loopholes. What does having an invulnerable save or the ID rule have to do with versatility? Simply look at the weapon loadouts. All the Russes have the same front and side armor and the same number of hull points. Short range Russes have rear AV11 to keep from being assaulted, and that's it.
If you're giving your CCS plasma guns and having them stand in your back line, I feel sorry for you, Mr. 10-year IG veteran. Yes, it's a waste. You throw a HW team on a static CCS, and probably a standard or a Vox (if you're into that kind of thing), and the one or two slots left can go to any weapon you like, but it uses leftover points that just have to be wasted. Let's just say you took 4 plasmas and they didn't fire for 3 turns. It's not rocket science-if a gun doesn't fire (like Lascannons can, has no associated plan (like Meltas and Demo charges do) and doesn't deter or affect the enemy's plan (like Flamers and Meltas do), it's not working. And if it's not working, it's wasting time, and incidentally, points. 30 points in this case. Plasma units have three courses of action available to avoid this, in order of preference: 1-get a transport, 2-infiltrate or outflank, 3-advance on foot. Standing in a back line? Sheesh.
The answer regarding Land Raiders have already been given, but let me repeat-they're the best transport for assault units (although they're rare compared to 5th now).
Oh, and if you think MM sponsons make a Punisher versatile, give serious thought to why the Demolisher isn't versatile. It's great against anything except flyers (so its target spectrum is much wider than the Punisher), and it's cheaper, and doesn't need sponsons, does it? The reason is the range.
I'm not trying to teach you anything, but the OP may not have encountered those melta suicide team tactics before, Mr. 10-Year IG Veteran. And BTW, don't you dare try to teach me how to play CSM. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tomten wrote: Hedkrakka wrote: Tomten wrote:I think that i should try both the punisher and the exterminator.
Great idea. It's quite easy to make an Exterminator turret without using any glue (except the plates on the turret, the searchlight and the hatch, of course) if you use a closed hatch. The Punisher Gatling cannon also fits the turret without gluing, so if you don't like either, you can easily go back to other tried and tested versions.
But sadly I didnt succed. I tried tried to magnetize the gun but when i realized that it would be a lot of work I just glued the battlecannon on the turret.
Don't worry about it, LRBTs are always useful (even if not best at anything except MEQs in the open) and you can always find a role for them. You've made a decent choice, thank God we can stop this pointless discussion now. Good luck with the LRBT.
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
I am sensing anger and frustration in this thread and there seems to be no consensus on the actual most versatile LR model.
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Post by: TheCaptain
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I am sensing anger and frustration in this thread and there seems to be no consensus on the actual most versatile LR model.
Leman Russ Annihilator. Literally /thread.
Only tank that can (reasonably) threaten:
GEQ
MEQ
TEQ
MC's
Multi-wound models
Transports
Tanks
Flyers
and pen:
AV10
AV11
AV12
AV13
AV14
Literally /thread. Literally.
The only other tank that can do ALL of this is the Vanquisher.
And the Vanquisher is made of suck.
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Post by: tankboy145
Whats the profile of the annihilator isn't it twinlinked lascannon or am I thinking of something else?
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Post by: Inquisitor Jex
Yes that's it. A FW model believe
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
What TheCaptain says is true, but the LRBT Annihilator is almost as garbage as the Vanquisher.
...moreso in an ABG where it lacks co-axial weapons and special ammunition.
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Post by: Ailaros
TheCaptain wrote:Ailaros wrote:Yes, any russ can take the same sponsons. This does not make it a control variable, though
That's exactly what a control variable is.
No it's not. Just because something is common does not automatically make it a control variable.
What you're saying is the equivalent to "You can't tell a good baseball team by its pitchers, because all baseball teams have pitchers". If the quality of a pitcher made the same impact on every team equally, then it would be a control variable, but it doesn't, so it's not. Same for russes.
Hedkrakka wrote:It's a simple fact that an EAC can take wounds/HPs off more types of enemies than the Punisher can.
The math will never make this statement true, no matter how vigorously you assert it.
Hedkrakka wrote:unfocused and wasteful (such as an Eradicator with MM sponsons, or your Punisher build)
What? So versatility you happen to disagree with is wasteful rather than versatile? Why?
Plus, unfocused is not an antonym for versatile. If anything, it's a synonym.
Hedkrakka wrote:Oh, and if you think MM sponsons make a Punisher versatile, give serious thought to why the Demolisher isn't versatile.
Because demolishers are terrible against infantry, what with having their firepower seriously disrupted by displacement, not ignoring cover saves, and being a blast weapon, so not even the best against hordes. And it can't even shoot at fliers.
Of course, you can ameliorate this somewhat with bolter sponsons, certainly, but you're still not going to be very good against fliers, and against infantry the main cannon causes the rest of them to snap fire, making all those bolter shots less effective.
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Post by: Martel732
Since a given vehicle or weapon team can generally only fire at a single target, specialization, rather than versatility, seems more desirable.
This question is similar to the missile launcher thread. Yes, the ML is versatile, but it does both jobs poorly, so its still rubbish.
I think what TheCaptain said is true, but versatility does not equal effectiveness. If you want to now find the sweet spot of versatility and effectiveness for the Leman Russ hull, that's going to be a long thread I think.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Ailaros wrote:TheCaptain wrote:Ailaros wrote:Yes, any russ can take the same sponsons. This does not make it a control variable, though
That's exactly what a control variable is.
No it's not. Just because something is common does not automatically make it a control variable.
What you're saying is the equivalent to "You can't tell a good baseball team by its pitchers, because all baseball teams have pitchers". If the quality of a pitcher made the same impact on every team equally, then it would be a control variable, but it doesn't, so it's not. Same for russes.
If every baseball team has the same 4 pitchers, then it is a control variable.
Every russ has the same 4 (or 5?) sponsons. Viola, control variable.
The constancy of the variable across all tanks is what makes it a control variable. That's a fact. By definition.
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Post by: Ailaros
Martel732 wrote:Since a given vehicle or weapon team can generally only fire at a single target, specialization, rather than versatility, seems more desirable.
On cheap, flimsy units that you can spam the hell out of, and don't have the opportunity to make actually good against a variety of targets, I would certainly agree with you. PCSs, SWSs, vets, and HWSs should all have the same kind of weapon.
But we're talking about something that is expensive, and durable, and CAN be outfitted to handle multiple threats. This is where you can really invest in versatility.
Plus, specialization, while good, also has its risks. If you bring a meltagun SWS and your opponent brings foot guard or a green tide, then you're only out 65 points. No big deal. A melta-las vanquisher, on the other hand, throws 200 points down that rabbit hole - a much bigger loss.
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Post by: tankboy145
So yet again since I see the punisher with MM sponson and lascannon hull is defended heavily as best all around tank and since statistics show its a better tank whos gunna start spamming them???
As I see it there really isnt any versatile Leman russ. Each one has its own rolls at what it does and the sponsons are just added fire power that may not even compliment the targets the tank is intended for.
Any time I see a thread for a list on dakka generally each unit is spammed with 2 or even 3 of one type of unit. The tank is so heavily defended as being better than all the other then why dont people take it over others?
Back when I said most versatile unit I would also like to add that as in a competitive game the best way to win is capturing objectives with the units to get them. Heavy support is their to "support" the troops in doing what they need to do.
My answer to the original poster is that he should build an army. Look at what hes lacking and then have his leman russ be kitted to fill that roll. Because even though the punisher is what is statistically "Versatile" over other Leman russ I find it overly expensive and I guarantee It probably wont be great at its job.
Everyone also is comparing each tank to another but I have rarely seen people consider range as a factor. With the punisher only having a real threat range of 24, 30 if it advances is actually kinda poor and have found that once it is in range then the enemy most likely will probably be assaulting it too.
If your opponent is also stupid enough to just throw troops into its range without effectively trying to take the tank out then I guess good for you. But if I knew my opponent had that many points sinked into a leman russ like that I would just have my anti tank go for them because with that many point sinked into heavy support there wont be as much firepower else where. Especially in any games less than 2000pts.
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Post by: Ailaros
Well, that's because range isn't actually that big of an issue.
Firstly, russes are heavy, which means you need to add 6" to everyone's range straight away. Even if your opponent refuses to advance, you can still shoot at stuff straight across from you turn one.
Secondly, if your opponent is constantly dancing around to keep out of a 30" range (as if they're even going to be able to do that all that well), then that's a HUGE strategic coup for you. You're going to be able to move troops off of an objective without even firing your gun, and you're going to create large areas of the board in which your opponent isn't going to be able to operate. You don't even need to fire a shot for this to be a big deal.
Of course, what's most likely is that, being faced off against a guard player, your opponent is going to be trying to close range. If your opponent is a gunline, then they're not going to be moving, so range once again is less of an issue.
I'll admit that having a shorter range isn't as good as a longer range, but 30" is still a pretty friggin big threat range. Were we talking about flamers or melta-range meltaguns, I'd be quick to concede the point, but for russes, even the shortest ranges aren't THAT short.
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Post by: tankboy145
I dont know about you but I would rather a squad be less in numbers the closer it gets than at full strength, especially marines or anything that has assault potential to destroy that leman russ.
And dancing around the russ would be the idea to get less of its weapons to fire at you when you move in. And if you say you will just pivot then you just exposed your weaker side armor to your opponent who If smart and had anti tank weapons would take that advantage. Not hard to flank a russ, especially one with such a short range. But back where range is a factor and bringing a squad down in size... If the squad was lower in numbers then you wont have to expose weaker sides to your russ because you probably would only need a MM and the PGC to finish the job.
But competitively speaking saying your at some big tournement would you spam these punisher with MM's and lascannons with your army since they are so versatile?
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Post by: Ailaros
tankboy145 wrote:I dont know about you but I would rather a squad be less in numbers the closer it gets than at full strength, especially marines or anything that has assault potential to destroy that leman russ.
Well, that REALLY depends, though. What's important is that you kill whatever the threat is before it gets to you, regardless of what range you kill it at. Grenade launchers have a long range, for example, but they're not as likely to kill most stuff as a meltagun, even if the meltagun doesn't get as many shots due to range restrictions.
For example, a punisher is going to brutalize a horde, and be better at taking down terminators before they make it into close combat when compared to an exterminator. An exterminator may get to shoot first (once again, though, may), but the punisher shoots harder. Hard enough to make up for whatever turn it doesn't get to shoot.
tankboy145 wrote:And dancing around the russ would be the idea to get less of its weapons to fire at you when you move in.
In which case, you have a huge strategic benefit.
Plus, if your opponent is moving in, then they're in range of your guns. Plus, the idea of flanking a russ to expose side armor in order for the russ to shoot doesn't make much sense when you consider that its main gun is on a turret (and it's not too difficult to get 2 of 3 hull weapons pointing at something without exposing yourself too much).
tankboy145 wrote:But competitively speaking saying your at some big tournement would you spam these punisher with MM's and lascannons with your army since they are so versatile?
At the most recent local tournament, a las/ MM punisher spammer took 2nd at a local tournament of 12 players. I took only 2 of them and came in 4th. I know that this is a ludicrously tiny data set, but it is possible to do well. Which is what the on-paper statistics say they should.
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Post by: tankboy145
Yes but if you cant really harm your opponent at range then they will just advance quickly in the open. But if you have something like a LRBT then your opponent is going to spread out and should be in cover, in which will slow them down and means you should get more shots from the rest of your army to drop them regardless of the cover.
And melta guns have a specific roll(tank killing) that they are good at, grenade launchers are not. This relates back to my previous comment that its not how versatile one unit is at taking on multiple different units because each unit in your army should have a roll. Now if your army is seriously lacking anti tank and horde that you have to take such an expensive unit to do so then I guess thats your choice.
So to the original poster, you should build an army and find where your lacking. Then base your heavy support around that.
If your lacking anti tank get yourself some melta stormies. Maybe try vendettas as well great anti flyer and tank hunter, you know what dont just take a vendetta throw some melta vets in that vendetta and now you have a super tank hunting unit. If you lack anti horde then add more blast weapons, more flamers, most importantly more lasguns.
It is more common now that most people will take their strong points in their army instead of less troops unless troops are their strong points but Ive noticed my chaos opponents taking very cheap troops choices but maxing their stronger elite and fast attack choices. With guard I find their heavy support and troops to be their best so I wouldnt be surprised at your opponent taking that much heavy support. But if im correct didnt your opponent also run pask in 1 of those tanks? If so thats 950 or 900 points sinked into heavy support. Why not focus on the troops off the bat to atleast tie the game if anything and then try to hold off the heavy support.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
tankboy145 wrote:Yes but if you cant really harm your opponent at range then they will just advance quickly in the open.
Show me a unit that can go from 31" to close combat in a single phase, and I'll show you a unit that NO russ can effectively handle.
tankboy145 wrote:So to the original poster, you should build an army and find where your lacking. Then base your heavy support around that.
But you're missing his point. He asked "what is the most versatile", not "is versatility a good thing?"
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Post by: tankboy145
Its not about a single unit coming up against your lines. Its about a whole army that basically coming up to your lines at full strength. A blood angels army consisting of about 4-maybe 5 assault squads(usually 4) and storm ravens with dreads and other special units ready to drop out would surely tear this apart. None of the marines would have to spread out as there probably wouldnt be any blast weapons in the army so when they get to assault most of them should be in range. But if you got 3 or 4 assault squads coming at you a turn that means you are going to rely on a tank to Hopefully be effective enough to drop an assault squad in 2 turns before it reaches a tank.
You are devoting so many points in taking this amount of heavy support that its going to almost be the main part of your army. After just recently using the punisher a couple times against Meq opponents I fail to see how even with MM sponsons and a lascannon this tank could drop an assault squad in 2 turns before the tank is in melta/assault range.
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Post by: Tomten
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tankboy145 wrote:Yes but if you cant really harm your opponent at range then they will just advance quickly in the open. But if you have something like a LRBT then your opponent is going to spread out and should be in cover, in which will slow them down and means you should get more shots from the rest of your army to drop them regardless of the cover.
And melta guns have a specific roll(tank killing) that they are good at, grenade launchers are not. This relates back to my previous comment that its not how versatile one unit is at taking on multiple different units because each unit in your army should have a roll. Now if your army is seriously lacking anti tank and horde that you have to take such an expensive unit to do so then I guess thats your choice.
So to the original poster, you should build an army and find where your lacking. Then base your heavy support around that.
If your lacking anti tank get yourself some melta stormies. Maybe try vendettas as well great anti flyer and tank hunter, you know what dont just take a vendetta throw some melta vets in that vendetta and now you have a super tank hunting unit. If you lack anti horde then add more blast weapons, more flamers, most importantly more lasguns.
It is more common now that most people will take their strong points in their army instead of less troops unless troops are their strong points but Ive noticed my chaos opponents taking very cheap troops choices but maxing their stronger elite and fast attack choices. With guard I find their heavy support and troops to be their best so I wouldnt be surprised at your opponent taking that much heavy support. But if im correct didnt your opponent also run pask in 1 of those tanks? If so thats 950 or 900 points sinked into heavy support. Why not focus on the troops off the bat to atleast tie the game if anything and then try to hold off the heavy support.
Thank you, I will build my lists like this in the future.
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Post by: tankboy145
Your very much welcome. In guard as other will also note its not how versatile each unit should be but more so how well a certian unit is at doing a specific job. Like melta vets are great at tank hunting so you use them for anti armor, you would think twice about throwing them at a horde. But as I mentioned build a list and find your weak points and then try to see if you can have your heavy support fill that role.
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Post by: The Crusader
tankboy145 wrote:Its not about a single unit coming up against your lines. Its about a whole army that basically coming up to your lines at full strength. A blood angels army consisting of about 4-maybe 5 assault squads(usually 4) and storm ravens with dreads and other special units ready to drop out would surely tear this apart. None of the marines would have to spread out as there probably wouldnt be any blast weapons in the army so when they get to assault most of them should be in range. But if you got 3 or 4 assault squads coming at you a turn that means you are going to rely on a tank to Hopefully be effective enough to drop an assault squad in 2 turns before it reaches a tank.
You are devoting so many points in taking this amount of heavy support that its going to almost be the main part of your army. After just recently using the punisher a couple times against Meq opponents I fail to see how even with MM sponsons and a lascannon this tank could drop an assault squad in 2 turns before the tank is in melta/assault range.
But if you are testing a single Punisher against multiple units, that makes it an unfair test. Plus which, a kitted out Punisher costs 225 points. That's only slightly more than a up-gunned assault squad of 10 men. Plus if the Russ is smart/Survival concious it'll get 3 turns of shooting which may not necessarily kill the squad but it'll certainly hurt them a lot. And a Exterminator would almost certainly do just as bad if not worse because of the ROF of the autocannon.
It has been said that each has their own particular forte. I think the LRBT excels at being average at damn near everything. The Vanquisher: killing heavy armour, albeit sporadically. The Exterminators forte is killing light Armour and MC's at a push. The punisher is an anti horde/ MEQ tank which would make it a good choice depending on one's meta.
The only way the Exterminator would be able to compete with the punisher would be to become a bolter-boat to crank out as many shots as possible. Likewise the punisher would have to become an AT armed tank.Thus armed the only area an Exterminator would excel would be against AV12 & 13 and again, 11 at a push depending on dice. One will never truly become more versatile because it depends on what you face most often. If you play against a lot of light to heavy armour, go for the Exterminator. If MEQ, go punisher.
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Post by: Ailaros
tankboy145 wrote:But if you got 3 or 4 assault squads coming at you a turn that means you are going to rely on a tank to Hopefully be effective enough to drop an assault squad in 2 turns before it reaches a tank.
The argument you're making is similar to the one made when people complain about rough riders because they only get to use their lances once.
In this case, what matters is the damage that you do, and that you do said damage before its too late. In this particular case, whether you do it a lot all at once a few turns from now, or a little bit over the first few turns isn't all that terribly important here. It's like how meltaguns are still useful, even if you don't get to shoot them for the first couple of turns of the game.
tankboy145 wrote:I fail to see how even with MM sponsons and a lascannon this tank could drop an assault squad in 2 turns before the tank is in melta/assault range.
Well, against regular marines, a las/melta punisher is putting down 4 marines per turn of shooting. That's better than you're going to get with a splat cannon unless they're literally balled up out in the open. Of course the russ would do better then, but that situation is pretty rare.
Now, if you want to bring blood angels into this, of course, things do change a bit. The russes extra range is largely negated by everything being fast (it's not going to be too hard for assault marines to move forward to a place that's difficult to engage them and then strike you on turn two, for example). On the other hand, the punisher does get a bit worse (more like 3.5 killed) when you throw FNP into the mix.
It's still an advantage to the punisher, though. A splat cannon is only going to hit every other time it shoots, and then you've still got to not roll 1's to wound. In order for a battlecannon (or colossus, or whatever) to equal the damage of a punisher, they've got to be able to cover TEN MODELS per shot. That doesn't seem very likely.
Even if you assume an extra round of shooting for the battlecannon, things still don't look well for it. If we're talking about the colossus, then you have to take into account the fact that it's only an AV12 vehicle.
In any case, against opponents with any semblance of dispersion, the battlecannon's killing power is going into the toilet, while the punisher's damage profile remains the same.
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Post by: Peregrine
Ailaros, there are two major problems with your analysis:
1) Cost. You're comparing a cheaper Exterminator to a more expensive Punisher. You either need to compare them at equal price, which means an Exterminator with sponsons vs. a base Punisher, or you need to reduce the Punisher's firepower numbers proportional to the difference in base price between the two. Otherwise it's just a flawed comparison, like arguing that a Sentinel is a better AA unit than a Vendetta because you brought 10,000 points worth of Sentinels against a single Vendetta.
2) Range. Yes, 24" means that you'll usually, but not always, be in range of something. However, it does NOT mean that you'll be in range of the ideal target. A 30" threat range means that you will sometimes have to settle for shooting the target you can reach instead of the target you want to kill, while 48" range almost always gets you the ideal target. Similarly a 24" gun means that you have limited room for movement to stay out of melta range, avoid assault units, keep your tank behind cover, etc. You'll often have to move straight towards your target, even if it means being out in the open with a melta squad within range next turn. On the other hand with 48" range you have a lot of flexibility in your movement options, you can move back out of range, move around cover instead of risking a dangerous terrain test by driving through it, keep your tank behind an aegis line at all times, etc. Does it mean that you never take 24" range weapons? Of course not, but you need to be aware that you have a major drawback attached to that gun.
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Post by: tankboy145
The Crusader wrote:tankboy145 wrote:Its not about a single unit coming up against your lines. Its about a whole army that basically coming up to your lines at full strength. A blood angels army consisting of about 4-maybe 5 assault squads(usually 4) and storm ravens with dreads and other special units ready to drop out would surely tear this apart. None of the marines would have to spread out as there probably wouldnt be any blast weapons in the army so when they get to assault most of them should be in range. But if you got 3 or 4 assault squads coming at you a turn that means you are going to rely on a tank to Hopefully be effective enough to drop an assault squad in 2 turns before it reaches a tank.
You are devoting so many points in taking this amount of heavy support that its going to almost be the main part of your army. After just recently using the punisher a couple times against Meq opponents I fail to see how even with MM sponsons and a lascannon this tank could drop an assault squad in 2 turns before the tank is in melta/assault range.
But if you are testing a single Punisher against multiple units, that makes it an unfair test. Plus which, a kitted out Punisher costs 225 points. That's only slightly more than a up-gunned assault squad of 10 men. Plus if the Russ is smart/Survival concious it'll get 3 turns of shooting which may not necessarily kill the squad but it'll certainly hurt them a lot. And a Exterminator would almost certainly do just as bad if not worse because of the ROF of the autocannon.
It has been said that each has their own particular forte. I think the LRBT excels at being average at damn near everything. The Vanquisher: killing heavy armour, albeit sporadically. The Exterminators forte is killing light Armour and MC's at a push. The punisher is an anti horde/ MEQ tank which would make it a good choice depending on one's meta.
The only way the Exterminator would be able to compete with the punisher would be to become a bolter-boat to crank out as many shots as possible. Likewise the punisher would have to become an AT armed tank.Thus armed the only area an Exterminator would excel would be against AV12 & 13 and again, 11 at a push depending on dice. One will never truly become more versatile because it depends on what you face most often. If you play against a lot of light to heavy armour, go for the Exterminator. If MEQ, go punisher.
Yes but generally a good IG armor spams its units. So if your are going to take this 225 russ then you should be spamming 2 or 3 of them and if you take 3 then thats 675pts in 3 tanks which can be killed the same was as a LRBT. Now if you dont spam them your opponent will and should be smart enough to focus anti tank weapons on that one tank and make you lose out on such an expensive tank.
I also understand each leman russ has its own forte. Exactly why I said the original poster should build an army and find his weak spots and get the appropriate heavy support for the job instead of trying to base his army around heavy support.
Also if you take so many points in these tanks you also have to make sure you can save enough points to have infantry troops to be able to move out and capture objectives on your opponents side of the table. Also why you should build your army and with what points youve got get your heavy support to fill where your lacking.
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Post by: Peregrine
tankboy145 wrote:Yes but generally a good IG armor spams its units. So if your are going to take this 225 russ then you should be spamming 2 or 3 of them and if you take 3 then thats 675pts in 3 tanks which can be killed the same was as a LRBT.
That's not necessarily true. You want to spam the same TYPE of unit ( AV 12, AV 14, infantry hordes) and you want to have redundancy in every role, but not necessarily the exact same unit. So, for example, if you already have a punisher cannon Vulture or two you might be content with only adding one more punisher cannon to your list, and then spend the other two heavy support slots on LR Demolishers.
Now if you dont spam them your opponent will and should be smart enough to focus anti tank weapons on that one tank and make you lose out on such an expensive tank.
It's not that simple. It's an easy choice if you only have one vehicle on the table and therefore a clear target for every railgun/ LC/melta/etc in their army, but can you really say that you always shoot the LR Punisher instead of the LR Demolishers next to it, the Chimera full of plasma vets on the other side, etc? Of course not.
Also, anyone who makes target priority decisions based on how many points the target costs is a bad player.
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Post by: BryllCream
Hedkrakka wrote:
vs. AV11 (say, a Rhino)
Range: 24"
The Punisher w/ HB sponsons gets 29 shots, 14.5 hits, 2.08 glances.
The Exterminator w/ HB sponsons gets 4 S7 & 9 S5 shots, 3 S7 & 4.5 S5 hits, 1.0 pen, 1.25 glances.
*snip*
Performance: Even at optimum range, the Punisher loses to the Exterminator. 0:3
I think that's a miss-type. What you actually meant was "The Punisher is 60% more effective than the Exterminator at <24".
Hedkrakka wrote:
Performance: The Punisher is better when its cannon is in range, but loses heavily if it isn't. 1:5
You mean it's not very good when it's not in range? Well blow me down.
The Exterminator sucks, and the maths backs this up.
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Post by: The Crusader
tankboy145 wrote: The Crusader wrote:tankboy145 wrote:Its not about a single unit coming up against your lines. Its about a whole army that basically coming up to your lines at full strength. A blood angels army consisting of about 4-maybe 5 assault squads(usually 4) and storm ravens with dreads and other special units ready to drop out would surely tear this apart. None of the marines would have to spread out as there probably wouldnt be any blast weapons in the army so when they get to assault most of them should be in range. But if you got 3 or 4 assault squads coming at you a turn that means you are going to rely on a tank to Hopefully be effective enough to drop an assault squad in 2 turns before it reaches a tank.
You are devoting so many points in taking this amount of heavy support that its going to almost be the main part of your army. After just recently using the punisher a couple times against Meq opponents I fail to see how even with MM sponsons and a lascannon this tank could drop an assault squad in 2 turns before the tank is in melta/assault range.
But if you are testing a single Punisher against multiple units, that makes it an unfair test. Plus which, a kitted out Punisher costs 225 points. That's only slightly more than a up-gunned assault squad of 10 men. Plus if the Russ is smart/Survival concious it'll get 3 turns of shooting which may not necessarily kill the squad but it'll certainly hurt them a lot. And a Exterminator would almost certainly do just as bad if not worse because of the ROF of the autocannon.
It has been said that each has their own particular forte. I think the LRBT excels at being average at damn near everything. The Vanquisher: killing heavy armour, albeit sporadically. The Exterminators forte is killing light Armour and MC's at a push. The punisher is an anti horde/ MEQ tank which would make it a good choice depending on one's meta.
The only way the Exterminator would be able to compete with the punisher would be to become a bolter-boat to crank out as many shots as possible. Likewise the punisher would have to become an AT armed tank.Thus armed the only area an Exterminator would excel would be against AV12 & 13 and again, 11 at a push depending on dice. One will never truly become more versatile because it depends on what you face most often. If you play against a lot of light to heavy armour, go for the Exterminator. If MEQ, go punisher.
Yes but generally a good IG armor spams its units. So if your are going to take this 225 russ then you should be spamming 2 or 3 of them and if you take 3 then thats 675pts in 3 tanks which can be killed the same was as a LRBT. Now if you dont spam them your opponent will and should be smart enough to focus anti tank weapons on that one tank and make you lose out on such an expensive tank.
I also understand each leman russ has its own forte. Exactly why I said the original poster should build an army and find his weak spots and get the appropriate heavy support for the job instead of trying to base his army around heavy support.
Also if you take so many points in these tanks you also have to make sure you can save enough points to have infantry troops to be able to move out and capture objectives on your opponents side of the table. Also why you should build your army and with what points youve got get your heavy support to fill where your lacking.
Not necessarily. A good IG armoured list will have a large amount of tanks (Surprise, surprise.) So if the Russ does become a massive bullet-magnet, that's all firepower that won't be directed at troops/troop transports that are getting closer to objectives. If the enemy focuses on the transports and such that gives the Russ to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
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Post by: Tomten
Why is the executioner so popular? Yes it can kill terminators but its expensive and only has three small blasts (five if you take sponsons).
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Post by: TheCaptain
Tomten wrote:Why is the executioner so popular? Yes it can kill terminators but its expensive and only has three small blasts (five if you take sponsons).
AP2 is a huge deal.
Being a heavy weapon is almost equally huge.
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Post by: Tomten
TheCaptain wrote: Tomten wrote:Why is the executioner so popular? Yes it can kill terminators but its expensive and only has three small blasts (five if you take sponsons).
AP2 is a huge deal.
Being a heavy weapon is almost equally huge.
It doesnt matter when the enemy is in cover.
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Post by: DaddyWarcrimes
Replacing their 2+ armor with a 5+ cover is nice. Forcing an assault unit to hug terrain rather than advance is nice. All in all, I call it a win.
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Post by: Ross74H
tankboy145 wrote:
As i dont really have forgeworld Im not familiar with that type of russ variant, what does it have?
Its bascially a turretless and unable to take sponsons variant of the Demolisher. Its also cheaper than a normal Russ at 140 points AFAIK.
This
So far, its proved to be my most effective Russ variant and I have used four or five variants in my games (normally at least a pair plus the lone Thunderer).
Might just be the way its luck runs though, it seems to get ingored and the normal Russes targetted first.
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Post by: BryllCream
DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Replacing their 2+ armor with a 5+ cover is nice. Forcing an assault unit to hug terrain rather than advance is nice. All in all, I call it a win.
I am usually gentlemanly enough to point out that terminators have an invulnerable save, so they don't need to hug cover. My opponents nearly always forget this.
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Post by: Tomten
DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Replacing their 2+ armor with a 5+ cover is nice. Forcing an assault unit to hug terrain rather than advance is nice. All in all, I call it a win.
Most models which have a 2+ save also have at least a 5+ invul save. Terminators dont need cover they are cover if they not are in a LR
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Post by: TheCaptain
Tomten wrote:DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Replacing their 2+ armor with a 5+ cover is nice. Forcing an assault unit to hug terrain rather than advance is nice. All in all, I call it a win.
Most models which have a 2+ save also have at least a 5+ invul save. Terminators dont need cover they are cover if they not are in a LR
And reducing them from that 2+ to a 5+ is why the executioner is nice.
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Post by: Martel732
This whole debate has highlighted why cracking LRs is more important that toting plasma. If you can get the terminators on foot before they get where they're going, you can torrent them down with practically anything if you have it en masse. This is why, in my mind, melta is still king. Hail to the king, baby.
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Post by: TheCaptain
Martel732 wrote:This whole debate has highlighted why cracking LRs is more important that toting plasma. If you can get the terminators on foot before they get where they're going, you can torrent them down with practically anything if you have it en masse. This is why, in my mind, melta is still king. Hail to the king, baby.
Las.
Cannons.
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Post by: Martel732
As much as I love the lascannon, I can't rely on them to stop a LR in a timely manner. Someone has to have the balls to get within melta range of the LR and go for it. This is why I love attack bikes so much in 6th. Give em FNP, and they are actually hard to stop enroute even taking concentrated fire.
But for something like the vindicator or LR demolisher, lascannon is the king.
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Post by: Tomten
TheCaptain wrote: Tomten wrote:DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Replacing their 2+ armor with a 5+ cover is nice. Forcing an assault unit to hug terrain rather than advance is nice. All in all, I call it a win.
Most models which have a 2+ save also have at least a 5+ invul save. Terminators dont need cover they are cover if they not are in a LR
And reducing them from that 2+ to a 5+ is why the executioner is nice.
When i fight terminators they usually have a 3+ invul save and FNP.
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Post by: Martel732
BA terminators? TH/SS? Again, crack the LR and torrent them to death. Takes a bit longer with FNP, but same thing applies.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
I've been trying to stay off this thread, but I see that's not such a wise decision. Ailaros, by being capable to hurt, I mean just being capable, not better. The EAC can hurt anything except AV14, the PGC can't hurt AV12 and 13. By "being able to hurt", I don't mean "being better against". In this context, just add and subtract-the EAC can hurt more targets-not that it will. As I stated multiple times, I'm not concerned about which tank is better, especially given the difference in cost.
BryilCream, obviously you've never tried the Exterminator before, so do proxy it once and watch as it fires every turn with OK results, but nothing too spectacular, while no one shoots at it thanks to most people having contempt for it as you do. If all you want is a piece of AV14 that you expect to survive, the Exterminator is best. If you expect a lot from your Russ, yeah, go for more specialized versions (I often do, objectively the Exterminator isn't best by any means, and may be 5th in the entire non-FW Russ line in terms of overall efficiency). The whole point of the comparison you mentioned is to illustrate how much the range difference matters, especially if you get short table edge deployment.
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Post by: Afrodactyl
I personally have been liking the bolter boat Exterminator. Whilst not doing any one thing fantastically, it holds its own for me as a good take all comers piece of armour.
I dont care that it cant tackle av14, I have melta vets and vendettas for that.
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Post by: Bonde
I have had a painted Leman Russ hull equipped with a lascannon for a while now and I have two turrets for it.
The first is the Exterminator and the second is the Vanquisher with Pask.
So far I have only used it with the Exterminator turret, and every time I have used it, I have wished for those HB sponsons to be on. It simply doesn't do a lot of damage against vehicles, nor a lot of damage to infantry either. If I had those extra HB's, it would be decent against GEQ and MC's at least.
The Vanquisher turret has been on the shelf since I got it, because right now that variant is just too expensive to field for what it does. Maybe I should just get a third Leman Russ hull with 3x heavy bolters?
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Post by: Tomten
Martel732 wrote:BA terminators? TH/ SS? Again, crack the LR and torrent them to death. Takes a bit longer with FNP, but same thing applies.
Yes and I you can just kill them with lasguns a lot of lasguns.
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Post by: Afrodactyl
As I previously mentioned, a 3 HB exterminator is serving me well so far. I definitely recommend at least proxying one.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Afrodactyl wrote:As I previously mentioned, a 3 HB exterminator is serving me well so far. I definitely recommend at least proxying one.
Exterminators are funny creatures. They don't do their job by doing a s***load of damage, but by just being cheap and being there, contributing oh so small amounts to the carnage while soaking up fire. While being highly versatile, they tend to pose insufficient psychological threat when fielded alone. Whenever I field one by itself, the opponent tends to ignore it. Remember, if your Russes aren't being shot at, you're wasting points. Artillery is both cheaper and more powerful, it just lacks the same survivability.
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Post by: Peregrine
Hedkrakka wrote:Remember, if your Russes aren't being shot at, you're wasting points. Artillery is both cheaper and more powerful, it just lacks the same survivability.
That's not entirely true. It's a relevant argument for the blast Leman Russes where the artillery tanks give you the same (or better) weapon, but it fails in the cases where there's no artillery tank with an equivalent gun. There's no artillery tank that can duplicate what the Exterminator can do, so you have to judge it on its own merits.
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Post by: Corollax
If you want to be technical, an autocannon HWT will mimic an Exterminator turret's firepower. Of course, doing so means you're sacrificing mobility and survivability to a degree that pretty much negates the comparison.
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Post by: Griddlelol
Hedkrakka wrote:
Exterminators are funny creatures. They don't do their job by doing a s***load of damage, but by just being cheap and being there, contributing oh so small amounts to the carnage while soaking up fire.
I've always been disappointed each time I use an exterminator. My opponent generally ignores it, so it doesn't do that much firepower soaking as you might think. If they do destroy it (think outflanking Hive Tyrant warlord) I tend to just shrug and I'm glad my opponent didn't decide to shoot something else.
I've not tried the punisher, but from the looks of this thread it is the most versatile. I might give it a go, but I just have that horrible thought in the back of my head saying "you could get a vulture for less points."
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Post by: Afrodactyl
The trick I have for making it pull its weight is simply being highly aggressive with it; driving it forward and shoving it down your opponents throat to force them to deal with it. Im also using it as my chief tank-shocker because of this.
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Post by: Griddlelol
Afrodactyl wrote:The trick I have for making it pull its weight is simply being highly aggressive with it; driving it forward and shoving it down your opponents throat to force them to deal with it. Im also using it as my chief tank-shocker because of this.
How do you tank shock with a heavy vehicle?
I was using it as a bolter-boat, in which case driving it too far forwards is rather pointless, I suppose I could kit it with MM and charge towards an opposing tank. However if I do that, I might as well make it a demolisher.
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Post by: Hedkrakka
Griddlelol wrote: Hedkrakka wrote:
Exterminators are funny creatures. They don't do their job by doing a s***load of damage, but by just being cheap and being there, contributing oh so small amounts to the carnage while soaking up fire.
I've always been disappointed each time I use an exterminator. My opponent generally ignores it, so it doesn't do that much firepower soaking as you might think. If they do destroy it (think outflanking Hive Tyrant warlord) I tend to just shrug and I'm glad my opponent didn't decide to shoot something else.
I've not tried the punisher, but from the looks of this thread it is the most versatile. I might give it a go, but I just have that horrible thought in the back of my head saying "you could get a vulture for less points."
If you read my entire post, you'll see it also happens to me. You need to have a lot of them (well, at least two) and/or use them to cover something important to make the enemy shoot at them. "an" Exterminator will always disappoint you, use Exterminators instead.
Punishers are great, but as I said, not versatile. I've tried the hull LC/ MM sponson build considered here multiple times and shooting at something as ordinary as a Wave Serpent is painful in itself. 20 shots go to waste and you're stuck with three BS3 single shot weapons. It still excels against infantry and most MC, but that's it. The Punisher is very good at its role, but not versatile. Also, if you have access to FW, definitely use that, it's the same gun on a flyer AFAIK, who wouldn't love that?
Peregrine: The average firepower an Exterminator Autocannon dishes out is equal to three Autocannon teams. Admittedly the Exterminator has a smaller standard deviation, but it should be close enough for comparison purposes.
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Post by: Afrodactyl
Griddlelol wrote: Afrodactyl wrote:The trick I have for making it pull its weight is simply being highly aggressive with it; driving it forward and shoving it down your opponents throat to force them to deal with it. Im also using it as my chief tank-shocker because of this.
How do you tank shock with a heavy vehicle?
I was using it as a bolter-boat, in which case driving it too far forwards is rather pointless, I suppose I could kit it with MM and charge towards an opposing tank. However if I do that, I might as well make it a demolisher.
It only happens rarely, but I occasionally get it off. Its like, one in ten games, but I dont really tank shock with any of my chimeras haha.
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Post by: Tomten
Is it a good idea to tank shock?
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Post by: TheCaptain
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
Besides targeting fliers (which LRs shouldn't. I mean we have Vendettas come on) I just take a ton of demolishers. They never disappoint. With enough on the board you will be able to touch everything with their pie plates of death.
I play an Armored Battlegroup and they are ALWAYS used.
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Post by: Afrodactyl
It depends on what you're plowing into. A small group of say, cultists, is a great target if you need it out of the fight.
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Post by: Tomten
You can tank shock everything that wont kill you. Automatically Appended Next Post: But it all depends if you are close enough.
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