Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 18:50:10


Post by: Wayshuba


I stopped in my LGS the other day after a long absence (almost five years - life has been busy). Anyway, got to chatting with the owner as I noticed that on the 12 tables he has for mini-gaming, 9 were playing Warmahordes, 1 was playing 40k and the other 2 were playing Infinity.

Just out of curiosity, I asked him what his most popular mini games were over the last few years. Ironically, he has a software program that actually tracks all this. After hearing the 2012 feedback (to which he was even surprised because he hadn't looked at the year end consolidation yet) I asked if he had numbers back further. He said yes and asked what year, so I said 2005 (2 years after Warmachine released). We both found the discussion interesting. Here was the feedback.

In 2005, Warhammer 40k and Warhammer were his top two games, with 40k outselling Warhammer almost 3 to 1. Warhammer also outsold Warmachine that year by almost 5 to 1 (he didn't share his actual financials with me).

In 2012, Warmachine was his top selling product line followed by Hordes, then 40k, then Warhammer. But, here was the surprise... When he totaled the sales, Warmachine outsold 40k by almost 4 to 1 and Hordes outsold it by about 2.5 to 1. His comment was he didn't realize until we were chatting by just how much PP had overtaken GW.

I asked why he thought this was, and he just commented that PP is benefiting from the 'GW effect'. I asked what he meant by that (figuring that he was going to directly knock on GW pricing, which he didn't), but he said that kids get into what they see being played. He said that over the last two years, Warmahordes has dominated play and it is easy to get into. Also, the parents felt easier buying their kids Warmahordes because it didn't look so intimidating cost wise. He then recounted a story of how a 15 year old kid came in with his Dad and was looking to get into 40k (Eldar) the kid got the rulebook, codex, hq (farseer & warlocks) and two guardian boxes (basically the minimum starting requirement). When he rang them up and the total came to over $220 (including tax), the father told him to immediately put it back, that he wasn't paying $200 for a bunch of plastic men. So he talked to them about Warmachine and they got a rulebook, army book and battlegroup starter box for just under $100. The father was okay with that and the kid was now a new Warmachine player. Thus why he referred to the GW effect. We talked a few minutes about the $100 GW starter boxes and he said they are only good as long as someone wants to play one of the two armies in the box but with 14 different armies, there was a better chance they were going for the rulebook, codex and a battle force which still puts entry at more than twice what Warmachine is. I found that most interesting.

That is in the space of 7 years. Just out of curiosity, what trends have you all noticed in mini-game play at your LGS in the last five years?

TL;DR: At my LGS, Warmahordes has now overtaken GW as the main played games and the pricing is part of that. What are the trends at your local LGS over the last five years?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 19:00:25


Post by: agustin


Same thing at the store I play at. Was massively GW with no Warmachine in 2005. Now it's WM/H all the time and the GW product takes less than a 5x3 foot section of the wall. One of each starter, a few army books, and a few squad boxes for core units. It used to take up half the shelf space at the store and all you'd be able to play there was 40k, WFB and D&D. Now it's all WM/H and Pathfinder, with a smattering of Flames of War, Dystopian Wars and Infinity.

Just the other day a dad and his 13 year old son came into the store looking for warhammer. Those of us playing WM/H overheard the father say things like "We just can't do this right now" and the PG who was in the store had the kid playing a demo game of WM a few minutes later. He bought a Cryx starter and I helped him clean and assemble the models and we played a game. Then his dad bought a Khador starter right as they left.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 19:30:16


Post by: Easy E


Well, mos tof the stores I walk into locally are composed of the following:

1. CCGs at the counter
2. One wall of GW
3. One wall of Warmachine
4. Back wall a mix of Pathfinder, FFG Games, other Board Games, and Flames of War.

Nothing else. It seems this "renaissance" of wargames only happens on the internet.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 19:42:32


Post by: lord_blackfang


Back in 2005 we all played GW games and there was this one dude trying to drum up interest in Warmachine.

5th edition, coupled with the preceding dumbing-down phase of Codex design, pretty much killed 40k for my entire generation. Now you see the occasional youngster play, and a few ancient grognards come out of the woodwork at tourneys, but none of the people that used to form my core group play anymore.

Some of us switched to Warmahordes and it ran strong for a while, but lately 3-4 excessively competitive players have driven everybody else off.

On the Fantasy side of things, the players were always extremely cutthroat and they all ragequit when 8th edition hit. They play FOW now.

Infinity is currently on the rise, we'll see how long that goes before the WAACers come along and ruin it.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 19:59:56


Post by: matphat


Same thing in my store.
I feel this is really about accessibility.
WM/H has made a much more accessible game in just about every respect.
I've been mucking around with WM/H for about 6 months now, and 40k for about two and a half years now and WM/H is a much more fluid system IMO.
I still like 40k, but I'm starting to see the appeal of WM/H.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 20:13:16


Post by: Daston


Could it not also be due to where you guys are? You US guys do tend to have a soft spot for your own products (and quite rightly so).

Its one of the really frustrating things about the UK, no one supports our industries and then wonder why they move production to china etc forcing loads of people out of Jobs.

Anyway back on topic.

From my neck of the woods its still 40k/Fantasy that are top with hardly any mention of WM/H


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 20:25:21


Post by: Mr. Grey


I don't know it's necessarily because the US favors US-based companies and game systems. From what I've heard, WH40K is hugely popular here in the States, particularly when it comes to space marines.

I only head to my local FLGS on Warmachine night, so I've never seen what the store looks like on 40K evenings, but I know that the owner takes pre-orders on new 40K releases, and is almost always completely sold out on release day. So there has to be a pretty decent contingent of 40K players around as well.

Personally, I played 40K and Warhammer between about '97 and '03. Got into Warmachine around 2006 and have been playing on and off ever since. Last summer/fall I briefly got interested in Orks, but the costs are just so daunting that I still haven't actually played a game of 6th edition. I think I currently own about 500 points of orks, but I don't yet have the 6th edition rulebook. $80 for the base rules hurts in the wallet. I'd estimate that I put about $180 into minis+codex, and I know for a fact that I don't have nearly enough of an amy to play anything decent with. Never really met a 40K player that's willing to do small 500 point games, either.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/21 23:57:56


Post by: silent25


It boils down to advocates for the game system. If there are enthusiastic people pushing the game, it will pull people in. WMH had difficulty getting established in my area because the first Press Ganger was convinced the best way to demo WM was to kick your face in and played up the worst aspects of "Play like you have a pair" mentality stressed early on in MK1. He was kicked out of my FLGS after throwing a fit over losing tables to a MtG per-release. A couple years later after MK2 came out, a new Press Ganger came in and really started pushing the game. Was on par with 40k till he was actually hired by PP and left for Seattle. Game withered again. See a couple people playing, but nothing more then 2 - 4 people at any time of the week. From what I understand, there are several players searching for a store to do a game night, but they want Friday night and all game stores in the area do MtG Friday Night gaming and that fills all the tables out.
40k still has a strong showing with 12 tables on league night and 3 - 6 tables other nights. Fantasy fills out 3 - 6 on the weekend. Both systems have some very enthusiastic people pushing the leagues.
I don't see any young people playing fantasy, but do see them playing 40k. New players in Fantasy are normally post college.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 01:34:03


Post by: Saphos


Warmahordes has no real following here. Infinity and other small games are on the rise, 40k and Fantasy still do well all in all. The advocacy theory has strong evidence. Those games that have strong proponents are indeed played here. Godslayer is starting to have more and more followers here.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 01:38:37


Post by: hotsauceman1


My FLGS posts it.
Warhammer has been the top Table top war games for the last two years
Warmachine is catching up. I was actually there today and over heard the staf talking. They are all Warmachine players(no one in the store played any Warhammer). Which is all fine with me, I don't get a damn. but they sad how if someone is looking into getting into Warhammer, they will push Warmachine on them because it is better. It saddens me because out player base is dieing. And the store owners likes this. He pretty much said Warhammer 40k is sucking.
And he wonders why we all buy online.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 01:54:06


Post by: RatBot


I honestly can't quote statistics for my store, as I only moved here a couple years ago and it seems like the big changes for a lot of stores started happening around then. They also play Warmachine and Warhammer on different days. anecdotally, my store does official Warmachine nights every week,but only has one day a month for Warhammer.

Whenever I go to my hometown next (probably next Winter, though maaaybe this Summer), I intend to check the local stores and ask about it.

I do have to imagine it's much easier to get people to start playing Warmachine or Malifaux or Dystopian Wars (assuming they have support in the local community) than Warhammer simply due to cost of entry; Most of these games can be started for $100 or less, regardless of which faction you pick, whereas if you want to play anything other than Dark Angels or Chaos Space Marines in 40K, or High Elves or Skaven in Fantasy, the start up costs are staggering. Even then I don't think the High Elf and Dark Angel forces are 100% legal right out of the box and will require the player to buy at least one more unit.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 02:14:03


Post by: AduroT


We've got far more Warmachine players, and for awhile PP outsold GW but recently GW has been selling more. Though I think that has a lot to do with one of the Warmachine guys apparently having a distributor license or something and buying stuff for himself and some others at wholesale price so people are buying less stuff from the store directly.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 02:14:45


Post by: -Loki-


My FLGS has migrated back to 40k. If I drop in for a game, there's always about half a dozen 40k games going on, and maybe 1 Warmahordes game.

When I asked one of the regulars about how many Infinity players they get while he was playing a game of Warmahordes, he said 'On and off, just like this game'.

They do, however, have leagues for various games, and they always seem to get enough people for anything.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 02:24:57


Post by: hotsauceman1


I wonder, Will PP ever turn into another GW? Will they turn into a players fear of a company that just cares only about its product and nothing more?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 02:38:22


Post by: privateer4hire


Gaming is usually regional and, as has been pointed out, has a portion of popularity driven by advocates. It is still more difficult to start a non-mainstream game (no matter how enthusiastic the advocate) if there are entrenched community players of other systems that refuse to play anything new.

Also, it would be interesting to see Dakkaite locations other than national level esp. stateside to get a better anecdotal feel.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 03:26:12


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


One of the many shops around my area has nearly stopped ordering GW stuff, as it doesnt move so well... Last time I stopped in, they had 3/4 of the Infinity line, 90% of the major Malifaux stuff (notably their paper terrain, and all the books), and a host of other stuff that wasnt there previously... I asked what the deal was, and they were saying that enough guys who used that store asked the owner to order things for other games, particularly Infinity and Malifaux that he went ahead and did it, apparently things have been going swimmingly with that choice.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 05:56:48


Post by: silent25


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I wonder, Will PP ever turn into another GW? Will they turn into a players fear of a company that just cares only about its product and nothing more?


Possibly. That Matt Wilson has been copyrighting his new material in his name instead of PP may indicate he is looking to sell PP. He and his wife have been running the company for a decade now and pretty sure the idea of selling and being able to enjoy the fruits of their labor hasn't crossed their mind. Heck, they live in LA, not Seattle. They may be already trying to get out.

Discussing with an older gamer, 50+ age, he said PP is where GW was prior to Bryan Ansell's buyout from Steve Jackson. It has reached a level of expansion and any further expansion will require a significant investment in the level of millions. To get that kind of money will require large investors that want a return on their money. Rick Priestly pointed out once the bankers came in at GW, the demand for constantly increasing revenues began and thus the regular price increases. I don't buy it fully, but given PP still has trouble meeting demand means they haven't been able to or want to expand production.

Back to the talk of advocates, one that GW did that I thought was stupid was the dropping of Outriders. They were definitely the advocates the game needed.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 07:19:08


Post by: Grot 6


Wayshuba wrote:
I stopped in my LGS the other day after a long absence (almost five years - life has been busy). Anyway, got to chatting with the owner as I noticed that on the 12 tables he has for mini-gaming, 9 were playing Warmahordes, 1 was playing 40k and the other 2 were playing Infinity.

Just out of curiosity, I asked him what his most popular mini games were over the last few years. Ironically, he has a software program that actually tracks all this. After hearing the 2012 feedback (to which he was even surprised because he hadn't looked at the year end consolidation yet) I asked if he had numbers back further. He said yes and asked what year, so I said 2005 (2 years after Warmachine released). We both found the discussion interesting. Here was the feedback.

In 2005, Warhammer 40k and Warhammer were his top two games, with 40k outselling Warhammer almost 3 to 1. Warhammer also outsold Warmachine that year by almost 5 to 1 (he didn't share his actual financials with me).

In 2012, Warmachine was his top selling product line followed by Hordes, then 40k, then Warhammer. But, here was the surprise... When he totaled the sales, Warmachine outsold 40k by almost 4 to 1 and Hordes outsold it by about 2.5 to 1. His comment was he didn't realize until we were chatting by just how much PP had overtaken GW.

I asked why he thought this was, and he just commented that PP is benefiting from the 'GW effect'. I asked what he meant by that (figuring that he was going to directly knock on GW pricing, which he didn't), but he said that kids get into what they see being played. He said that over the last two years, Warmahordes has dominated play and it is easy to get into. Also, the parents felt easier buying their kids Warmahordes because it didn't look so intimidating cost wise. He then recounted a story of how a 15 year old kid came in with his Dad and was looking to get into 40k (Eldar) the kid got the rulebook, codex, hq (farseer & warlocks) and two guardian boxes (basically the minimum starting requirement). When he rang them up and the total came to over $220 (including tax), the father told him to immediately put it back, that he wasn't paying $200 for a bunch of plastic men. So he talked to them about Warmachine and they got a rulebook, army book and battlegroup starter box for just under $100. The father was okay with that and the kid was now a new Warmachine player. Thus why he referred to the GW effect. We talked a few minutes about the $100 GW starter boxes and he said they are only good as long as someone wants to play one of the two armies in the box but with 14 different armies, there was a better chance they were going for the rulebook, codex and a battle force which still puts entry at more than twice what Warmachine is. I found that most interesting.

That is in the space of 7 years. Just out of curiosity, what trends have you all noticed in mini-game play at your LGS in the last five years?

TL;DR: At my LGS, Warmahordes has now overtaken GW as the main played games and the pricing is part of that. What are the trends at your local LGS over the last five years?


This, exactly to a T.

Our local stores at the time had other additional issues, but the effect was about the same.

Three states, same issue. Then there was the economy, that stepped up pretty much everything.

Warmahordes is already in the same boat as GW though. The last guys I priced local were sitting at 89.00 for a squad box of ten guys.

Needless to say I wanted to smash someone over that one.

They seem to sell a few, though. seeing as there are some on fridays that still show up.

Most ave thier guys from before the new price hikes, but from what I see, the move to plastics didn't do anything that the intent was originally for.

Prices are still the same, if not higher.

Gaming is becoming more diverse, though. So when your seeing the spread from all geners, I guess we can tank GW and Warmahordes for something.

More choices, more games, nothing wrong with that.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 08:24:21


Post by: AduroT


Depends on Which ten guys. Their upcoming ten and thirteen man Winterguard boxes are both only fifty. The ~$80+ units tend to be the more parts heavy knights and such with more or larger parts.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 08:35:38


Post by: Laughing Man


Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 08:50:08


Post by: MrMoustaffa


My area is all over the place. Our local store owners are not huge fans of GW corporate. They've been screwed many a time on orders, "missing" releases, etc. As a result, they do everything they can to push 3rd party systems. Both have a strong 40k presence, but almost all players have the what I like to call "I play 40k and..." syndrome. Basically, everyone has some 40k stuff, so it's the easiest to find a game for. However, many people find the prices a bit daunting, and start looking into other systems, depending on what they like. Cutthroat tourney players are migrating to Warmachine/hordes thanks to the ruleset, others (like myself) are migrating to games like Bolt Action and FoW due to time setting and scale. Others are getting into infinity, dust, and that star wars dogfighting game. Every time a new codex comes out or a new price increase pops up, you start to hear more "man, I really need to get started on my other games." I highly doubt the switch will be overnight, but I see it gradually going that way a bit more every day.

Basically, everyone plays 40k right now because we already have the stuff for it. Give us a few years and a few more price changes, and I'll have a feeling it'll start becoming "I play bolt action, and 40k occasionally if somebody wants a game" or "I play Warmachine and dust my 40k stuff occasionally when I'm feeling nostalgic". The hostile nature GW has had to our local stores has pretty much killed any desire they have to keep their 40k communities going. I'm pretty sure if they could switch to other companies and drop GW tomorrow with no penalties they'd do it in a heartbeat.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 09:14:01


Post by: Herzlos


It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 09:37:26


Post by: NAVARRO


Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


You shoud try salute, great way of getting into all scifi trends etc.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 09:37:32


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


When I came back to Norway in 2009, there were more or less two games being played in Oslo, WHFB (biggest) and 40k. There were a few FOW players around, but most of them were focused on their little FOW island in Drammen. There was a general feeling of decline, however. WHFB was flagging slightly.

At the recent Norwegian Nationals, We had 75 (81 sign-ups) WHFB players, 39 (41 sign-ups) WM/H players and 28 40k players. 40k should probably have been bigger (40 would not be unreasonable) they had some issues with communication, sadly. Overall, its seems like the growth of "other games" have benefited the GW game community as well, as increased miniature exposure and con organization helps to get their guys back. We have never had so many miniatures gamers at one con in Norway before.

In our local store, WM/H dominates. A typical wednesday game night has 3-5 WM/H tables going and 1-2 40k/Fantasy tables going. Infinity also has a showing (with one exception they all play WM/H as well, so it takes one out) and there is the occasional Mordheim, Dystopian Wars and Bolt Action game. At the local club, WM/H has much less presence since game night is fridays and the players are on average older - they spend fridays with their families. It recently moved to tuesdays since it turns out a lot of other players also have families. Let's see what happens.

Overall, getting WM/H to where it currently is at in Norway has been a lot of work and enthusiasm. Advocates is definitely necessary. The store miniature guys play WM/H, 40k, Fantasy and Dystopian Wars, so they are hardly very biased toward one system, but the WM/H/Infinity/other games people have a really good relationship with them, which helps a lot.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 10:55:33


Post by: Herzlos


 NAVARRO wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


You shoud try salute, great way of getting into all scifi trends etc.


I've been toying with visiting salute, but it'd involve flights and overnight stays so becomes painfully expensive even before I go mad at the stalls


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 11:08:54


Post by: AduroT


 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 14:18:58


Post by: hotsauceman1


See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 14:31:33


Post by: NAVARRO


Herzlos wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


You shoud try salute, great way of getting into all scifi trends etc.


I've been toying with visiting salute, but it'd involve flights and overnight stays so becomes painfully expensive even before I go mad at the stalls


I can imagine that, travelling in the UK is quite expensive. If you manage to find the extra cash you will not regret what salute has to offer, its something memorable and I cannot recall any better place to be introduced to hundreds of new ranges, games etc.


hotsauceman1 wrote:See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


Here we go again


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 14:32:21


Post by: PhantomViper


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


You are wrong.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 14:33:21


Post by: WaaaaghLord


We have more 40k players at our LGS, and GW stuff probably sells more, but at tournaments we tend to get a better turnout for WMH. I'm not sure if this means there are more competitive WMH players or not, but thats certainly what it seems llke.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 14:34:27


Post by: lord_blackfang


 AduroT wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 14:38:20


Post by: PhantomViper


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.


Yup.

That is because PP doesn't do yearly price updates so you were actually paying 2003 prices for metal models instead of 2012 prices. If you would compare older metal warjacks with newer ones the price difference was ridiculous for no apparent reason!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 15:19:16


Post by: timetowaste85


My local game store is pretty much only board games on one night of the week, and cards and roleplaying every other night. Wargaming has dried up, as the only miniatures game they ever promoted was Warhammer, and those of us who did play there have all gotten fed up with the store and left (manager actually asked local players to go in and purposely lose [they had already left, and he tried to get them back in only to lose] to drum up sales for him, without offering them any incentive). That's what employees are for: to play and lose to drum up sales (if anybody is going to do it, that is).

The game store that I LIKE is an hour away, but the guy has almost as large a collection of WM/H as he does Warhammer/40K. He also has a large section of Fantasy Flight, including Dust and a large collection of LCGs. Follow this up with Infinity, Malifaux and Mantic getting places on his shelf, and I'd much rather go there. From my understanding, he does still sell more GW-but not by much anymore.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 15:48:14


Post by: Deadnight


Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


Im wondering if we're living in alternative Scotlands here mate! Where abouts are you based? I can tell you for a fact that there is a booming warmachine/hordes scene here in Edinburgh, and quite a number of folks play in Glasgow, Perth, St. Andrews and Dundee. A lot of folks travel for tournaments between the places.

Maybe you're not seeing the scene i see because you don't know the right people?

Regarding actually buying it, again, no offense but you are quite wrong. there is Worlds at War in Livingston, outside edinburgh for all your warmachine, hordes, malifaux, infinity, dystopian wars, dropzone commander (soon! he tells me), flames of war and other historicals. And he carries a great stock/selection with it. There are other places that sell in Edinburgh and Glasgow as well, with few hassles. Im not certain about further up north but i can easily find out.

But if you're in or around the Edinburgh area, there are quite a few clubs that regularly host warmachine, hordes as well as 40k and WFB, and a host of other games. if you're interested, just let me know.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 15:57:47


Post by: Hargus56


My local store is a GW so it doesn't count. I am located in the East Bay of the San Francisco Bay Area, the next closest independent store sells both but say there is almost never a game down there mostly Card Games and RPGs though they do sponsor a yearly tournament for WHFB/WH40k/Warmahordes. The next closest independent store sells all 3 but says 40k is barely played there, fantasy hasn't been played in years but Warmahordes is being scheduled 3 nights a week, though when I go in during the work week around noon which I have done a dozen times no one is playing. Now my local GW store usually has a game (if not 2-3) going on all the time, though right now with 6th releasing it is mostly 40k. The difference between the GW store and the independent store is if I have an issue with a figure they will help me. I recently needed assistance building 2 metal screaming skull catapults, went in talked to the new GW manager he said to come in the next day as early as possible and we sat down and built them. Since fantasy at the store is slow he told me to come in after they open during the week and he will play a game with me. The independent store employees are usually too busy stocking, the owners probably don't want to pay their employees to play. Don't want to hijack the thread with a GW v. Independent Store deal but as a mainly fantasy player Independent stores don't make me feel very welcome. Having said that cost is huge, I can't get people into GW games because no one wants to drop $200 for a 750-1000pt army to get their foot in the door, with Warmahordes you buy a $40 battlebox and can check out the game.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 16:33:17


Post by: Backfire


I seldom visit my FLGS, but what I gather, WHFB was number one until 5th edition 40k. Now it's 40k, FoW, Blood bowl and WHFB. WM/H seems quite miniscule at least for now. Couple of years ago one guy said he was the only Warmachine player in entire city.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 16:37:22


Post by: Mad4Minis


 Mr. Grey wrote:
I don't know it's necessarily because the US favors US-based companies and game systems. From what I've heard, WH40K is hugely popular here in the States, particularly when it comes to space marines.



The closest LGS to me (about an hour away) has about equal retail space dedicated to PP and GW stuff. They also have a decent little section for Infinity, along with the required RPG and boardgame sections, and of course behind the counter is loaded with cards. I dont get there often because of the distance, but next time Im there Ill have to go over to the table side and see whats actually being played.

Here in my house the favorites are Song of Blades & Heroes and Heroscape. We just got our Blackwater Gulch kickstarter load, but havent assembled or played the stuff yet. It looks like Im about to dump a load of 40k stuff, mostly because most of what I want is Forgeworld. Will probably also go ahead and finish the wifes Chaos Daemons army too.

EDIT: I also have some 15mm WWII tanks and a set of generic tank rules I made that I still need to do some playtesting on...


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 17:02:55


Post by: Herzlos


 NAVARRO wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


You shoud try salute, great way of getting into all scifi trends etc.


I've been toying with visiting salute, but it'd involve flights and overnight stays so becomes painfully expensive even before I go mad at the stalls


I can imagine that, travelling in the UK is quite expensive. If you manage to find the extra cash you will not regret what salute has to offer, its something memorable and I cannot recall any better place to be introduced to hundreds of new ranges, games etc.


I'll make it down at some point (might save up for next year and make a longer trip of it). The fact it's the same weekend as the London Marathon doesn't help either though, as the hotels are all more pricey than normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadnight wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's still very much GW and historics over here (Scotland/UK). I think I've seen one RPG store with Warmachine stuff, and no infinity anywhere. I try to go to most of the local conventions and it's the same story; lots of GW resellers (most 2nd hand though), and lots of historics, but very little else in terms of sci-fi.


Im wondering if we're living in alternative Scotlands here mate! Where abouts are you based? I can tell you for a fact that there is a booming warmachine/hordes scene here in Edinburgh, and quite a number of folks play in Glasgow, Perth, St. Andrews and Dundee. A lot of folks travel for tournaments between the places.

Maybe you're not seeing the scene i see because you don't know the right people?


You're probably right and I'm just missing it. I'm a funny set up as I work in Edinburgh but spend more free time in Glasgow, and live between the two. I've only been into a club once, locally, and the Edinburgh Games Hub twice, and most of the Hub games were 40K (there was some folk playing Dust though).

All of the shows I've visited: Targe (kirrimuir), Carronade (Falkirk), Claymore (Edinburgh), Wappinshaw (Glasgow) have been mostly 40K and historics, but I know they are mostly run by historics clubs.

Regarding actually buying it, again, no offense but you are quite wrong. there is Worlds at War in Livingston, outside edinburgh for all your warmachine, hordes, malifaux, infinity, dystopian wars, dropzone commander (soon! he tells me), flames of war and other historicals. And he carries a great stock/selection with it. There are other places that sell in Edinburgh and Glasgow as well, with few hassles. Im not certain about further up north but i can easily find out.

But if you're in or around the Edinburgh area, there are quite a few clubs that regularly host warmachine, hordes as well as 40k and WFB, and a host of other games. if you're interested, just let me know.


I've heard of Worlds at War, and I'm not too far away but I've never actually been, so I'll need to try and find it. Are there any Edinburgh clubs handy for the city centre and not running too late?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 17:34:52


Post by: Mattman154


 AduroT wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


If I remember right, the Rifle Corps has more separate parts than the infantry which could lead to the price tie.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 17:49:49


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


It seems that in Europe Warmachine/Hordes may not have taken off as much as it has in the States? Purely from anecdotal evidence. Why is that do you think?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 18:06:39


Post by: PhantomViper


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
It seems that in Europe Warmachine/Hordes may not have taken off as much as it has in the States? Purely from anecdotal evidence. Why is that do you think?


Not really, over here the only system that rivals WMH in number of tournament participation is FoW.

WHF, that was without a doubt the most played system a few years back, has declined steadily ever since 8th was released and 40K as virtually disappeared after a very brief resurgence when 6th came out.

There are a few people dabbling with Infinity, Saga, Bolt Action and Dystopian Wars but no tournaments so far.

I think that WHF didn't take off in some other European countries due to the prevalence of GW stores on said countries, but since we never suffered from that particular problem there was no outside incentive to stick with GW games.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 18:22:19


Post by: Pipboy101


I played 40k from 1997 till 2010 no stop. But in January of 2010 I started to get into warmahordes. I got tired of GW's crazy price increases and how a new army will always destroy the previous armies. So in 2011 I started to cull my 40k and sunk that money into warmahordes. Now that I have zero GW product now I have no regets because warmahordes is such a great game I have no regrets.

Any game is as expensive as you want it to be but warmahordes is so much easier to get into. Plus their 2 player starter boxes are a much better deal than anything GW has come up with within the past 10 years. In all honesty till GW starts to be a bit more realistic on their price points it will continue to drive people to other games.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 18:59:43


Post by: Deadnight


Herzlos wrote:

You're probably right and I'm just missing it. I'm a funny set up as I work in Edinburgh but spend more free time in Glasgow, and live between the two. I've only been into a club once, locally, and the Edinburgh Games Hub twice, and most of the Hub games were 40K (there was some folk playing Dust though).


this is actually quite amusing, in a good way

you work in edinburgh, hang out in glasgow, and live in the middle of the two. Well, with all due respect mate, but get your arse over here to Livingston. there's two clubs that do warmachine in Livi alone - worlds at war on a tuesday from 2 or 3 onwards, and also at the weekend, and there is Battleground, on a friday evening/saturday morning. seems like a perfect fit for you.

i also know of some glasgow gamers - i think they play at one of the universities, but i can find the details for you without too much hassle.

Herzlos wrote:

All of the shows I've visited: Targe (kirrimuir), Carronade (Falkirk), Claymore (Edinburgh), Wappinshaw (Glasgow) have been mostly 40K and historics, but I know they are mostly run by historics clubs.


Skirmish in Livi had a warmachine tournament, and Worlds at War do a fairly frequent tournament (one a month to two months at the very least) that attracts nice numbers. We've got our two local pressgangers who do a very good job of organising things. I know more about the convention scene in Ireland where i hail from, but i get the impression they're less developed here in these pagan lands. regardless, they're probably the wrong places to be looking. Like i said, check out worlds at war and other spots.

Herzlos wrote:

I've heard of Worlds at War, and I'm not too far away but I've never actually been, so I'll need to try and find it. Are there any Edinburgh clubs handy for the city centre and not running too late?


its in craighouse, about 5 minutes from the motorway. you should go, if you're in the area - we've got a good bunch of guys and girls there. like i said, tuesdays and weekends mainly, unless you want to organise a game another evening too. and we have a facebook page - if you're interested, i'll PM it to you - its always good to get fresh victims... er players

as to ediburgh clubs, there is the hub (normally on a friday from what i hear - i normally dont play there - i work in Livi so Livi is a perfect spot for me for a post-work game) and there is also the Edinburgh League of Gamers (ELG) that meet at the RAF club on the London road (just off the very top of Leith walk, so its slap bang in the middle of the city) on wednesday evenings. feel free to turn up any time after 6.30 or 7 until about 10ish.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 19:06:19


Post by: Dysartes


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


That WGRC box will, if you use all 10 men, give you 8 points towards an army.

The typical game/tournament sizes are 25, 35 and 50 points.

Given how large a chunk of an army that box is, it isn't surprising people say PP are cheaper for an army, while individual models may be closer to GW price points.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 19:08:19


Post by: Trondheim


We dont have any War machines/hordes or Infinity in my club. We do have however have a good number of FoW and All hail Cesare player plus Pike & Shot players. So all in all we have a good and blended crowd when it comes to games, but the general agreement is that GW & Walord games are the main ones.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 19:18:31


Post by: Saldiven


The FLGS where I go most often has seen a similar migration, though not as dramatically as mentioned by the OP. I do not have access to his sales numbers, but I can see what is stocked on the walls and what people are playing when I visit.

5+ years ago, the store only had a small number of tables, and gaming was largely 40K dominated. Occasionally, there were groups that played other systems that came out, but they were definitely not very common. Today, the owner has a larger space with ten full sized gaming tables available pretty much all the time, and space for another 8-10 if there's a tournament. On any given day, you'll see pretty much anything being played. In the last two years, there has been a dramatic increase in skirmish games other than Warmahordes; there has been an increase in Malifaux, Infiniti, Dark Age, and even games like Bushido. I think its likely that GW games are still the largest single game maker being played, but the total number of players doing skirmish games have to be at least as common as the GW players.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 19:33:10


Post by: IHateNids


My friendly local is predominantly 40k atm. We all have fantasy and WM/H armies in the beginnings as well.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 20:31:05


Post by: Poppabear


 Easy E wrote:
Well, mos tof the stores I walk into locally are composed of the following:

1. CCGs at the counter
2. One wall of GW
3. One wall of Warmachine
4. Back wall a mix of Pathfinder, FFG Games, other Board Games, and Flames of War.

Nothing else. It seems this "renaissance" of wargames only happens on the internet.


Well said.

Mine usually consists of Warhammer and 40k for the main wall, then Ancients, Warmachine/Hordes and Flames of War as the smaller games

the other one I got to just consists of Ancients, Warmachine/Hordes and Flames of War.

But I don't see why all this PP vs GW crap keeps popping up (even if thats not what the OP was intending. It always seems to go that way. But as Easy put it, I guess it really only happens on the internet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what really bugs me, is when people start spouting "PP is way cheaper then GW" which is just totally wrong. The game is awesome and the models are two but they have just as stupid pricing as GW does.

And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 20:40:50


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Dysartes wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


That WGRC box will, if you use all 10 men, give you 8 points towards an army.

The typical game/tournament sizes are 25, 35 and 50 points.

Given how large a chunk of an army that box is, it isn't surprising people say PP are cheaper for an army, while individual models may be closer to GW price points.

Point is though. They are not cheaper. An army may cost less, but its still not cheaer model wise. Their paint is better though.
IDK, I guess I'm just mad over hearing about how the employees at my store try to push people away from 40k and over to Warmachine. Just because they like it more.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 20:46:41


Post by: Dentry


 Poppabear wrote:
And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.


Might wanna go for the Battle Box in the future. About the same as GW's starter box (Dark Vengeance).


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 21:18:16


Post by: Deadnight


Poppabear wrote:[
And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.


2 of those are "dreadnoughts" though

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Point is though. They are not cheaper. An army may cost less, but its still not cheaer model wise. Their paint is better though.


but if the army costs less, then it is cheaper? neh?

My stance? a thirty-five point "army" will set you back a lot less than a 1500point army. but then again, unlike with 40k, where people seem to settle on "the list", and they play that "army" exclusively for months on end without really swapping stuff out. (blame it on the nature of only a handful of things being truly competitive) that doesnt happen in the warmachine community. No one plays that one "the list". Blame it one the fact that everything can be built into a game winning build. So the end result isnt you getting a 35pt army. the end result is you playing a game, and while you have 35pts in play for that game, you might have 100+ points in your case waiting for its turn.

I was curious as to the costs involved for myself in warmachine/hordes. bear in mind, i've got all the books, 2 factions, multiple casters, jacks, beasts, units etc. its cost me a lot.

that said though, at the end of the day, Warmachine and Hordes are cheaper to get into. And IMO its more exciting to play. then again, in the long run, it will end up costing you as much as GW-games. So for me, its the wrong selling point to focus on.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 21:20:41


Post by: hotsauceman1


Exactly.
Who just ends with "I got an playable force, I dont need anymore models"
Everyone ends up buying more.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 21:24:09


Post by: Laughing Man


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.

They also added parts to make every jack on that chassis instead of just the one set of arms and head, so it's not a straight "but this went up in price" comparison. The light warjacks are a better comparison, with the resculpted plastic lancer going from $17 to $18 and gaining about 50% more bulk over the old metals.

And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.

$73 NZ, according to Total Wargamer.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 22:10:40


Post by: Mattman154


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Exactly.
Who just ends with "I got an playable force, I dont need anymore models"
Everyone ends up buying more.




Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 22:26:52


Post by: RatBot


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Exactly.
Who just ends with "I got an playable force, I dont need anymore models"
Everyone ends up buying more.


....I actually do. Or rather, I start a different army. I had "finished" my Skaven and was contemplating starting up either Tomb Kings or Beastmen before I decided to stop buying GW products, then I realized for the cost of a single 2400-2500 point Beastmen army (the typical points value for my local meta at the time) I could get two to four Warmachine armies. I don't collect models just to collect models. Every single model I buy I intend to play games with. So I, in fact, do just what you said people don't do. What am I going to do, buy another box of Tactical Marines to go with the 40 I already have? Buy three Verminlords so I can have one to use in a game and the other two serve as pretty $50 paperweights?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 22:30:56


Post by: Grimtuff


 Easy E wrote:
Well, mos tof the stores I walk into locally are composed of the following:

1. CCGs at the counter
2. One wall of GW
3. One wall of Warmachine
4. Back wall a mix of Pathfinder, FFG Games, other Board Games, and Flames of War.

Nothing else. It seems this "renaissance" of wargames only happens on the internet.


Erm, no. All that proves is it is not happening in your area. you have no other data.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 22:32:55


Post by: -Loki-


 Dentry wrote:
 Poppabear wrote:
And last time I recalled, the starter box... for lets say, Khador, was 90 NZD.... 90 flippen bucks for three models.


Might wanna go for the Battle Box in the future. About the same as GW's starter box (Dark Vengeance).


And, shockingly, comes with far less models. In fact, comes with less models than just the Dark Angels force in a standard edition DV without Seraphicus. For, as you said, about the same price.

Yes, the armies in it are more complete. But value of models in game should never concern price - something people always lament with GW pricing, say, individual characters higher than individual grunts, yet PP seems to be adored for the practice (though PP do it on a range-wise basis. it's all more expensive because you don't need as much).

I still cringe when I walk into my FLGS semi interested in Warmahordes, and grab a metal squad off the rack. Then see the $100au price tag. Then see the command models are another $33au. Sure, I only need to buy it once, but ~$130au for a squad and command models is... disheartening, to say the least.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 22:49:10


Post by: Dentry


Agreed, Loki. We need all plastics everywhere for everything.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/22 23:18:00


Post by: Mattman154


 -Loki- wrote:
I still cringe when I walk into my FLGS semi interested in Warmahordes, and grab a metal squad off the rack. Then see the $100au price tag. Then see the command models are another $33au. Sure, I only need to buy it once, but ~$130au for a squad and command models is... disheartening, to say the least.


Just curious, do you remember which unit that was?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 04:44:41


Post by: -Loki-


Mattman154 wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
I still cringe when I walk into my FLGS semi interested in Warmahordes, and grab a metal squad off the rack. Then see the $100au price tag. Then see the command models are another $33au. Sure, I only need to buy it once, but ~$130au for a squad and command models is... disheartening, to say the least.


Just curious, do you remember which unit that was?


Honestly, no, I don't know enough anout Warmachine to recognise them, and didn't bother remembering the name.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 05:10:44


Post by: Chozo


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.


To be fair, my Legion Carnivean-body warbeasts went from $40 for a block of pewter so heavy you could bludgeon a baby to death with it (and correspondingly chip like all hell) to $35 for the 3-in-1 kit. I think they just standardized the costs of the heavy kits across all factions without worrying about the individual particulars.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 05:14:19


Post by: TheContortionist


Hobby Quest Games in Longmont Colorado.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 05:49:31


Post by: Rainbow Dash


back home, the FLGS didn't have much anything in terms of warhammer, a few 40k players but MTG and yugioh were the truly dominant forces there
the only quasi-gaming store is a comic book store which MTG is very often played, and where I get the MLP comics lol (and blind bags, oddly enough)


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 06:38:58


Post by: AduroT


PhantomViper wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
Don't think there's anything that went up in price when switching to plastic. Most everything stayed the same price per box, but shifted to a five or ten man box, instead of three or six.


I think the worst I've heard of is Winterguard Rifle Corps which remain $50 after switching to plastic, which is most odd because the thirteen man Winterguard Infantry is also $50 despite having three more guys than the ten man Rifle Corps.


The Prime 'jacks certainly went up in cost at the switch to plastic, the Cryx one went up 25%.


Yup.

That is because PP doesn't do yearly price updates so you were actually paying 2003 prices for metal models instead of 2012 prices. If you would compare older metal warjacks with newer ones the price difference was ridiculous for no apparent reason!


And the plastic jacks are also bigger and come with extra parts.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 10:08:35


Post by: Herzlos


Deadnight wrote:
Herzlos wrote:

You're probably right and I'm just missing it. I'm a funny set up as I work in Edinburgh but spend more free time in Glasgow, and live between the two. I've only been into a club once, locally, and the Edinburgh Games Hub twice, and most of the Hub games were 40K (there was some folk playing Dust though).


this is actually quite amusing, in a good way

you work in edinburgh, hang out in glasgow, and live in the middle of the two. Well, with all due respect mate, but get your arse over here to Livingston. there's two clubs that do warmachine in Livi alone - worlds at war on a tuesday from 2 or 3 onwards, and also at the weekend, and there is Battleground, on a friday evening/saturday morning. seems like a perfect fit for you.

i also know of some glasgow gamers - i think they play at one of the universities, but i can find the details for you without too much hassle.

Herzlos wrote:

All of the shows I've visited: Targe (kirrimuir), Carronade (Falkirk), Claymore (Edinburgh), Wappinshaw (Glasgow) have been mostly 40K and historics, but I know they are mostly run by historics clubs.


Skirmish in Livi had a warmachine tournament, and Worlds at War do a fairly frequent tournament (one a month to two months at the very least) that attracts nice numbers. We've got our two local pressgangers who do a very good job of organising things. I know more about the convention scene in Ireland where i hail from, but i get the impression they're less developed here in these pagan lands. regardless, they're probably the wrong places to be looking. Like i said, check out worlds at war and other spots.

Herzlos wrote:

I've heard of Worlds at War, and I'm not too far away but I've never actually been, so I'll need to try and find it. Are there any Edinburgh clubs handy for the city centre and not running too late?


its in craighouse, about 5 minutes from the motorway. you should go, if you're in the area - we've got a good bunch of guys and girls there. like i said, tuesdays and weekends mainly, unless you want to organise a game another evening too. and we have a facebook page - if you're interested, i'll PM it to you - its always good to get fresh victims... er players

as to ediburgh clubs, there is the hub (normally on a friday from what i hear - i normally dont play there - i work in Livi so Livi is a perfect spot for me for a post-work game) and there is also the Edinburgh League of Gamers (ELG) that meet at the RAF club on the London road (just off the very top of Leith walk, so its slap bang in the middle of the city) on wednesday evenings. feel free to turn up any time after 6.30 or 7 until about 10ish.


I was actually going to try and make it to Skirmish, but for some reason never got round to it. I'll try checking out Worlds At War, it's inside the Craigshill Mall?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 21:16:10


Post by: Easy E


 Grimtuff wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Well, mos tof the stores I walk into locally are composed of the following:

1. CCGs at the counter
2. One wall of GW
3. One wall of Warmachine
4. Back wall a mix of Pathfinder, FFG Games, other Board Games, and Flames of War.

Nothing else. It seems this "renaissance" of wargames only happens on the internet.


Erm, no. All that proves is it is not happening in your area. you have no other data.


Yeah. I know. i wasn;t beign totally serious, but no one could know because I didn't put a smiley.

I think this just highlights and reinforces the idea that gaming is regional. What is going strong in one area may not be the same elsewhere. Of course, if we go high enough on the geography scale, you will start to see "overall" winners and losers.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 21:37:06


Post by: angel of ecstasy


Though people are welcome to play any GW game they want at the tables, my LGS doesn't stock or support GW games anymore (except Blood Bowl).

Besides MTG, Warmahordes is their main range, followed by Flames of War.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/23 21:59:39


Post by: djones520


They've tried a couple times to get Warmahordes to take off at my FLGS, each time the items end up in the 50% off bin.

GW has a deathgrip in this region. Flames of War is probably the second best seller.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/24 02:11:41


Post by: Laughing Man


djones520 wrote:
They've tried a couple times to get Warmahordes to take off at my FLGS, each time the items end up in the 50% off bin.

GW has a deathgrip in this region. Flames of War is probably the second best seller.

Really? I'd thought Vader was still PGing over at Fantasy Books. Of course, it's been a couple years since I played down there and we also get a bunch of Illinois players here at Game Nite, so I have a hunch we're cannibalizing a lot of your local players lately...


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/25 18:15:26


Post by: sparkywtf


God forbid the customers at the FLGS have to look at anything that isn't GW.

We attempted getting into WMH once. That died out quick.

God forbid I bring in a different game like blackwater gulch or even some of the board ones like SW or Dreadball.

The owner is pretty much going to keep pushing GW till people stop buying GW (not in the over pushy way like a GW store would be). He just has no interest in expanding to other lines when other lines do not sell.


That being said, there are a few people who have WMH and do play occasionally, but usually after they finishing playing a game or 2 of 40k.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/25 18:26:49


Post by: orkybenji


My game store seems to be Magic > board games >>>war machine > GW >>>>> flames of war.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/26 16:11:03


Post by: djones520


 Laughing Man wrote:
djones520 wrote:
They've tried a couple times to get Warmahordes to take off at my FLGS, each time the items end up in the 50% off bin.

GW has a deathgrip in this region. Flames of War is probably the second best seller.

Really? I'd thought Vader was still PGing over at Fantasy Books. Of course, it's been a couple years since I played down there and we also get a bunch of Illinois players here at Game Nite, so I have a hunch we're cannibalizing a lot of your local players lately...


At the old store there was a very small group who played, but in the 4.5 years I've been living here now, it's never been a thing. The group I was playing Fantasy with gave Fantasy up with 8th edition and moved on to Warmachine, but they stopped coming to the store then as well.

40K is the juggernought here. And the player base is just as strong as it ever has been. We get a lot of guys from the Missourri side for our tourneys.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 01:16:46


Post by: Ugavine


Well, ignoring my local games store, that's Games Workshop, the other FLGS doesn't sell GW products. They sell other wargames but it's only a small shop and the only wargame I've seen played there was 7TV - actually I was playing it. Magic & Heroclix are the big games.

At my games club there are a vast variety of games played. Of the Wargames I would say 40K has the lead over Flames of War and various Warlord Games historicals.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 06:00:46


Post by: martin74


I have noticed a trend at the local game store where I live. WHFB and 40K were te big guns three/four years ago. When you saw someone playing WM/H or only thing else you gave them that crazy look. Now, you still see games every night being played, but te range of game systems is rather large. WHFB, 40K, Wm, Hordes, Malifaux, and even Dystopian wars is common to see being played.

There are those purist out there tat will only play GW. They need to losen up.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 12:56:04


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


I see that many UK peeps say that historicals are played whilst the States players seem to play more fictional wargames.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 15:32:20


Post by: GreySkull


I live in a podunk town in Texas where there's a church for just about every block and if anyone one of the bible-thumpers saw my Chaos army, they'd go Salem Witch-Trials on my $%^. So I go to Waco to play at the Game Closet (yes, shameless advertisement for them, I know ). I got into Warmachine a few years ago and I have the first patch for the tournament season for 2007.

Everyone who played Warmachine there (which was pretty much everyone in the store) had stopped playing GW games to because of their antics and price-gouging. More than one voiced their opinion that the GW universes had stagnated. And I can see why they'd say that, 40k will never go past the 41st millenium, the weapons will never change or new ones will never be created, and hell, we don't even know what year exactly 40k or even Warhammer fantasy takes place in so you can get a feel for the passage of time in-universe.

I like the imagery in 40k and Warhammer Fantasy, but the pricing is the only real reason I don't collect them anymore. Games Workshop has seriously shot themselves in the foot this time and I believe they'll be laying off lots of workers as a result of their stupidity. I understand the price of metals, I understand the price of plastics is not much better, and yes, they have to make a profit. However, they're a company built upon the fandom of nerdy (you are, I am, just embrace it! ) individuals with not a lot of money to spare, especially in this economy. GW should have taken this into account when they priced their stuff.

Privateer Press first of all has a snappy name ("Privateer Press" just has this ring to it ) and they are very interested in what their fans have to say. I've only had one problem with a PP mini and it was promptly and curteously handled by their very professional (and very nice! ) customer support staff.

As the OP stated, the starting package is very much more affordable than what you'd pay for a GW starting army. A warcaster and two warjacks (some sets have more) is a starting set and costs (from what I can recollect) around $50 before tax. Yes, you can play an entire game with just these few pieces . Can you do that with GW games? No. No you can't. It's a much more simplified game and you'll be thanking PP that there are only a few armies to choose from.

PP games are also smaller and faster requiring you to think on the run unlike in a GW game where its all very static and clunky. They come with cards to help with quick-referencing for each model/unit and the rules are all pretty straight-forward.

I have to say that PP is where it's at. GW is quickly (through it's own fault mind you) becoming a dinosaur and losing touch with it's fans hasn't helped it's case. Should GW wish to remain a viable company well into the future, it'd better put on the brakes and get back in touch with those that helped make it what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Srry, I tend to ramble a bit, but I'm sore over the stupidity I'm seeing in one of my favorite companies. I figured they actually cared for their fans...screw'em.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 16:07:51


Post by: hotsauceman1


Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 16:46:27


Post by: Grot 6


PP is where it is for being the "Anti- GW...".

They built it into thier foundation and pushed the image forward. They don't care, but they DO listen to thier fanbase and ask for feedback on units. It then forges forward and improves the whole.

I'm not a real big fan of a heck of a lot of PP's recent manuvers. Level 7 being one of thier ... oddest. But when it counts, they have strong following and positive impressions on thier Warmahordes lines.

As for "playing a game... All it takes is a jack or three, caster, and some infantry to get going. You don't actually have to "Keep up with the joneses" with all of the new units and stuff.

I started out whith them in the very begining with 2 sets. One of Cryx, the other of Cygnar. painted up the cryx right off, the other guy took a few months.

The set stayed in the closet on waiting list form painting for that time. When I finished it, and the game... continued. I didn't need a large force, and jumped right in with what I had.
No running out and trying to get the lickies and chewies, and what I had, the base box and a couple of infantry... were fine.

I didn't need to get all crazy either.

if anything, THIS was the game to give one the time to enjoy the units and painting for the painting and units sake.

So if thats a facade, keep that going, because it surew as heck makes owning a game easier when the compnay actually knows exactly what the units are and not squatting everything at every iteration of change.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 16:49:49


Post by: Generalstoner


Just chiming in here. The local gaming store here is
1. Warmahordes
2. 40k
3. Fantasy
4. Flames of war

Given time I think Flames of war is going to overtake both GW games or at least be tied for 2nd with 40k. Like any game it is cyclic where eventually some games will have a new following due to their releases. The Colossal and Gargantuan lines are really pushing PP right now.

I think part of the problem with GW is the uberslow releases of codices. 2 of my 3 armies have not had codices in years and one... the Black Templars ... are in danger if you ask me of getting "squatted."



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 17:12:08


Post by: chaos0xomega


I havent seen a game of fantasy played locally since shortly after 8th dropped, though there are several people who own forces, I being one of them. It is generally felt by the local player base that 8th sucks (I disagree). 40k and Warmahordes are fairly tied for popularity, there is a huge crossover between the two groups with only a few people remaining exclusive fans of one or the other, for the most part it seems warmahordes is gaining in popularity. We are currently starting up Infinity (we have a very small number of players) and Malifaux (even fewer), and we have a few Flames of War players as well (mostly playing 40k/WMH).


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/27 18:01:37


Post by: Laughing Man


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.

Fine. Replace "cares" with "Realizes the best way to build brand loyalty is to personally engage your fanbase on all levels of your company, to develop a ruleset that meets the needs of all market segments instead of only casuals, to build communities with leagues and tournament support, to politely treat customers like human beings with an ounce of common sense, and to play nice with your independent retailers so that they'll scratch your back and push your products." Is that better?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 00:14:10


Post by: RatBot


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.


What Laughing Man said.

No one thinks, say, Matt Wilson is going to show up to their birthday party, but they provide excellent support for local stores and clubs, provide tournament packages, and engage their community at conventions and on their forums.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 00:23:03


Post by: Laughing Man


 RatBot wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.


What Laughing Man said.

No one thinks, say, Matt Wilson is going to show up to their birthday party, but they provide excellent support for local stores and clubs, provide tournament packages, and engage their community at conventions and on their forums.

Not yours, maybe.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 00:24:14


Post by: hotsauceman1


IDk, Maybe im just ticked because i often hear people at my local store Praising PP and dissing GW, its kinda annoying.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 01:37:09


Post by: gunslingerpro


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
IDk, Maybe im just ticked because i often hear people at my local store Praising PP and dissing GW, its kinda annoying.


You stated this. Repeatedly. Perhaps instead of bad mouthing the company, give it a shot. Even if it's not your cup of tea, you'll become more experienced in the process.


In regards to the 'rivalry', let me say this: Games Workshop has seemingly embraced that they are a model company, and have removed themselves from the gaming portion of the industry. Privateer Press has focused on the gaming portion with Iron Arena, Steamroller, and the Master's events.

Is this because PP is earlier in their existence arc, i.e. the old GTs and prize support of GW of old? Who knows. But folks will flock to a company (or companies) that fill the niche they want.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 01:45:38


Post by: hotsauceman1


Thing is. I have nothing against the company really. I keep meaning to start it. I want too. But whenever I try, the people who give me advice always start badmouting GW, saying things like "This would cost X from GW" kinda points me away.
Most of the models looked great. PP seems nice, but their fan base around here DOESNT.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 02:18:46


Post by: CIsaac


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thing is. I have nothing against the company really. I keep meaning to start it. I want too. But whenever I try, the people who give me advice always start badmouting GW, saying things like "This would cost X from GW" kinda points me away.
Most of the models looked great. PP seems nice, but their fan base around here DOESNT.


I've had similar experiences around these parts. It feels like one of those 'there's nothing as fanatical as the converted' sorts of things in regards to a lot of folks. Also a lot of the WAAC player types went to PP games whereas the casual modellers are the ones I've experienced playing GW (though they have WAACs still) mostly.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 03:07:10


Post by: AduroT


 RatBot wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.


What Laughing Man said.

No one thinks, say, Matt Wilson is going to show up to their birthday party, but they provide excellent support for local stores and clubs, provide tournament packages, and engage their community at conventions and on their forums.


DC, their lead designer, showed up at our FLGS one game night when he was in town visiting his wife's family. Hung out for about half an hour or so and then had to get going. Him and others also show up at Warmachine Weekend, an independently run mini-con every year.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 03:12:28


Post by: Laughing Man


They also typically go drinking with folks from the convention afterwards. DC is... interesting with a few beers in him.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 03:43:44


Post by: agustin


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thing is. I have nothing against the company really. I keep meaning to start it. I want too. But whenever I try, the people who give me advice always start badmouting GW, saying things like "This would cost X from GW" kinda points me away.
Most of the models looked great. PP seems nice, but their fan base around here DOESNT.


So what if they badmouth something else you like? Are there really any problems other than that they rub you the wrong way when it comes to their opinions about GW?

I get that no one likes to hear that something they like has bad qualities, but to actually have that impact ones hobby choices seems really strange and self limiting.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 03:58:01


Post by: gunslingerpro


 CIsaac wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thing is. I have nothing against the company really. I keep meaning to start it. I want too. But whenever I try, the people who give me advice always start badmouting GW, saying things like "This would cost X from GW" kinda points me away.
Most of the models looked great. PP seems nice, but their fan base around here DOESNT.


I've had similar experiences around these parts. It feels like one of those 'there's nothing as fanatical as the converted' sorts of things in regards to a lot of folks. Also a lot of the WAAC player types went to PP games whereas the casual modellers are the ones I've experienced playing GW (though they have WAACs still) mostly.


It appears you've both run into former GW players who've made the switch due to perceived slights, which is unfortunate. I advise you to treat them like you do anyone who has been burned by any company. Carefully.

hotsauceman, don't let their comparisons drive you away. Let them know that you're aware of the price comparisons. But remember it is the most accessible and simple comparison, even if their opinions are biased.

CIsaac, seeing as you've played the game (I see Menoth in your sig) but not in a rather long time (old point totals), try giving it a go again if you enjoyed it at all the first time. I've come to find that the WAAC people, when viewed from the ruleset, aren't actually WAAC. They just play a game with a tight ruleset, thus can change their playstyles as neccessary to win.


I don't mean to be the defender of PP or to highjack this thread, but mending fences and breaking down biases are something we can all aim for.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 06:11:23


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


The break down of the store is thusly:

A big second hand book rack which contains both RPG splat books and the like and actual fantasy novels, a couple massive book racks (three or so) with all the RPG systems you could dream of, another small shelf with Black library stuff, a couple big walls filled to the brim with GW products and another case with all the WFB and 40k codex. A couple massive paint racks, and a huge paint display case with just about everything in it. The rest of the room has racks dedicated to table top games (think Munchkin, Settlers of Cattan, that type of thing) all the TCG stuff is kept behind the counter and the rest of the walls are taken up with PP (a decent amount but nothing compared to GW), some Infinity (starting to catch on in the local), and flames of war.

The local Warmahordes night is well attended, but nothing like the 40k night. GW rules the local area, and I'd put Flames of War in second place for "most actively played" (not shocking, this is a military town, so military history's popular)


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 11:24:05


Post by: CIsaac


 gunslingerpro wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thing is. I have nothing against the company really. I keep meaning to start it. I want too. But whenever I try, the people who give me advice always start badmouting GW, saying things like "This would cost X from GW" kinda points me away.
Most of the models looked great. PP seems nice, but their fan base around here DOESNT.


I've had similar experiences around these parts. It feels like one of those 'there's nothing as fanatical as the converted' sorts of things in regards to a lot of folks. Also a lot of the WAAC player types went to PP games whereas the casual modellers are the ones I've experienced playing GW (though they have WAACs still) mostly.


It appears you've both run into former GW players who've made the switch due to perceived slights, which is unfortunate. I advise you to treat them like you do anyone who has been burned by any company. Carefully.

hotsauceman, don't let their comparisons drive you away. Let them know that you're aware of the price comparisons. But remember it is the most accessible and simple comparison, even if their opinions are biased.

CIsaac, seeing as you've played the game (I see Menoth in your sig) but not in a rather long time (old point totals), try giving it a go again if you enjoyed it at all the first time. I've come to find that the WAAC people, when viewed from the ruleset, aren't actually WAAC. They just play a game with a tight ruleset, thus can change their playstyles as neccessary to win.


I don't mean to be the defender of PP or to highjack this thread, but mending fences and breaking down biases are something we can all aim for.


For me there's also a rather particular story of a really jerky group of players that really soured me on the deal. I admit that it's personal experience, but I've not seen anything to change my mind about it. Whereas in this area we also one one of the best and most loyal old guard Outriders from the GW halcyon days still running the local scene and he does everything he can to foster a good environment so it's easy to want to stay associated with that.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 11:30:45


Post by: AduroT


Yeah, but Jerky and WAAC players can happen in both games. Have had a few 40k players in the past that were banned from events for cheating at the FLGS, but never had a Warmahordes player that got caught cheating yet.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 15:55:37


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


Truly difficult players are pretty rare anyway, thankfully. I've run into only one the last 5 years (and he eventually quit to play other games after being a jerk at three tournaments in a row).

I also do not think WAAC players actually exist. It is like "Politically Correct", a successful invented (or in PC's case, adapted) word with rather ambigeuous meaning whose main purpose is to bash other people over the head with.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 17:23:42


Post by: silent25


 CIsaac wrote:


For me there's also a rather particular story of a really jerky group of players that really soured me on the deal. I admit that it's personal experience, but I've not seen anything to change my mind about it. Whereas in this area we also one one of the best and most loyal old guard Outriders from the GW halcyon days still running the local scene and he does everything he can to foster a good environment so it's easy to want to stay associated with that.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme. The early years of "Play like you have a pair" left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of interested gamers.

As for all the people who state PP is a "better" company than GW, no it isn't. Both companies are bad. Have heard from multiple sources that working at PP is horrible. It's poorly run, turnover is high, and relies on a pool eager fanboys to replenish the ranks. Shocking reason for the turnover is the business philosophy of Matt Wilson's wife who runs the business side of the company. If an employee has been with the company for more than two years and hasn't been promoted, is fired. Heard this business philosophy several years ago. Thought it was idiotic then, still think it is idiotic now.

Reason for the shortages a few years ago at PP, they fired two of their three figure casters and planned to have the third train new casters. Problem is, he left the company a month later, leaving them to scramble to rebuild production.

Though one source of this info stressed, don't think any of the other companies are good either. CMoN is also ruthless and not to trust their owner further than you can throw him and even Reaper can have a sharp elbow when it needs it. That source also joked he is now hearing the same "converted" talk ex-GW players/employees had when moving to PP from ex-PP players/employees who are moving to other games and companies.




Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 17:42:19


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


What about Warlord Games?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 17:51:30


Post by: PhantomViper


silent25 wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:


For me there's also a rather particular story of a really jerky group of players that really soured me on the deal. I admit that it's personal experience, but I've not seen anything to change my mind about it. Whereas in this area we also one one of the best and most loyal old guard Outriders from the GW halcyon days still running the local scene and he does everything he can to foster a good environment so it's easy to want to stay associated with that.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme. The early years of "Play like you have a pair" left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of interested gamers.

As for all the people who state PP is a "better" company than GW, no it isn't. Both companies are bad. Have heard from multiple sources that working at PP is horrible. It's poorly run, turnover is high, and relies on a pool eager fanboys to replenish the ranks. Shocking reason for the turnover is the business philosophy of Matt Wilson's wife who runs the business side of the company. If an employee has been with the company for more than two years and hasn't been promoted, is fired. Heard this business philosophy several years ago. Thought it was idiotic then, still think it is idiotic now.

Reason for the shortages a few years ago at PP, they fired two of their three figure casters and planned to have the third train new casters. Problem is, he left the company a month later, leaving them to scramble to rebuild production.

Though one source of this info stressed, don't think any of the other companies are good either. CMoN is also ruthless and not to trust their owner further than you can throw him and even Reaper can have a sharp elbow when it needs it. That source also joked he is now hearing the same "converted" talk ex-GW players/employees had when moving to PP from ex-PP players/employees who are moving to other games and companies.


Source?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 17:56:45


Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)


silent25 wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:


For me there's also a rather particular story of a really jerky group of players that really soured me on the deal. I admit that it's personal experience, but I've not seen anything to change my mind about it. Whereas in this area we also one one of the best and most loyal old guard Outriders from the GW halcyon days still running the local scene and he does everything he can to foster a good environment so it's easy to want to stay associated with that.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme. The early years of "Play like you have a pair" left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of interested gamers.

As for all the people who state PP is a "better" company than GW, no it isn't. Both companies are bad. Have heard from multiple sources that working at PP is horrible. It's poorly run, turnover is high, and relies on a pool eager fanboys to replenish the ranks. Shocking reason for the turnover is the business philosophy of Matt Wilson's wife who runs the business side of the company. If an employee has been with the company for more than two years and hasn't been promoted, is fired. Heard this business philosophy several years ago. Thought it was idiotic then, still think it is idiotic now.

Reason for the shortages a few years ago at PP, they fired two of their three figure casters and planned to have the third train new casters. Problem is, he left the company a month later, leaving them to scramble to rebuild production.



Though one source of this info stressed, don't think any of the other companies are good either. CMoN is also ruthless and not to trust their owner further than you can throw him and even Reaper can have a sharp elbow when it needs it. That source also joked he is now hearing the same "converted" talk ex-GW players/employees had when moving to PP from ex-PP players/employees who are moving to other games and companies.




Stuff like the two years "up or out" rule isn't really new nor is it just a PP thing. It seems to have prevailed in some business schools. I worked for a major computer company for 6 years, and they had the same philosophy. Keep in mind this is also a 60,000 employee company. It's a way to keep folks on their toes and remove dead weight (or that was the party line anyway).



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 18:11:51


Post by: Chongara


 darefsky wrote:


Stuff like the two years "up or out" rule isn't really new nor is it just a PP thing. It seems to have prevailed in some business schools. I worked for a major computer company for 6 years, and they had the same philosophy. Keep in mind this is also a 60,000 employee company. It's a way to keep folks on their toes and remove dead weight (or that was the party line anyway).



This seems like an absurd line of reasoning. It requires that number of positions above any other given position are equal in number or you'll have to fire people by virtue of there not being enough room at the top. You could have a gaggle of people who are fundamentally great at their jobs and simply not the best for whatever higher positions opened (if any did at all), in that two-year window. You then fire them and get total incompetents in their place. In fact that seems almost certain to happen. If anything it feels like the best this could accomplish is keeping a higher percentage of new hires in entry level positions to avoid having to give out salary increases or to keep them in trial or contract positions and thus pay out fewer benefits.. or both.

Then again I'm not a fancy schmancy business school graduate so whatever.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 18:18:50


Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)


Chongara wrote:
 darefsky wrote:


Stuff like the two years "up or out" rule isn't really new nor is it just a PP thing. It seems to have prevailed in some business schools. I worked for a major computer company for 6 years, and they had the same philosophy. Keep in mind this is also a 60,000 employee company. It's a way to keep folks on their toes and remove dead weight (or that was the party line anyway).



This seems like an absurd line of reasoning. It requires that number of positions above any other given position are equal in number or you'll have to fire people by virtue of there not being enough room at the top. You could have a gaggle of people who are fundamentally great at their jobs and simply not the best for whatever higher positions opened (if any did at all), in that two-year window. You then fire them and get total incompetents in their place. In fact that seems almost certain to happen. If anything it feels like the best this could accomplish is keeping a higher percentage of new hires in entry level positions to avoid having to give out salary increases or to keep them in trial or contract positions and thus pay out fewer benefits.. or both.

Then again I'm not a fancy schmancy business school graduate so whatever.



And now you know the reason the companies stock was once in the $60 range and now hovers around $12....


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/28 19:18:22


Post by: silent25


 darefsky wrote:
Chongara wrote:
 darefsky wrote:


Stuff like the two years "up or out" rule isn't really new nor is it just a PP thing. It seems to have prevailed in some business schools. I worked for a major computer company for 6 years, and they had the same philosophy. Keep in mind this is also a 60,000 employee company. It's a way to keep folks on their toes and remove dead weight (or that was the party line anyway).



This seems like an absurd line of reasoning. It requires that number of positions above any other given position are equal in number or you'll have to fire people by virtue of there not being enough room at the top. You could have a gaggle of people who are fundamentally great at their jobs and simply not the best for whatever higher positions opened (if any did at all), in that two-year window. You then fire them and get total incompetents in their place. In fact that seems almost certain to happen. If anything it feels like the best this could accomplish is keeping a higher percentage of new hires in entry level positions to avoid having to give out salary increases or to keep them in trial or contract positions and thus pay out fewer benefits.. or both.

Then again I'm not a fancy schmancy business school graduate so whatever.

And now you know the reason the companies stock was once in the $60 range and now hovers around $12....


A retired friend who was hired as a manager at a company that practiced this (not PP), told me it doesn't promote the most productive employees, it promotes the most political (aka brown nosers) employees. All you have are people that can convince others they are doing a good job, not necessarily an actual good job. He didn't stay there long before deciding it was a good idea to leave before he engaged in acts of physical violence

Also, if you ever have a chance to meet Mike McVey in person, give the man a hug. He has had the unfortunate experience of having a major dump be taken on him by both GW and PP.
*edit* and no, he is not the source of my information.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 05:23:41


Post by: CIsaac


silent25 wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:


For me there's also a rather particular story of a really jerky group of players that really soured me on the deal. I admit that it's personal experience, but I've not seen anything to change my mind about it. Whereas in this area we also one one of the best and most loyal old guard Outriders from the GW halcyon days still running the local scene and he does everything he can to foster a good environment so it's easy to want to stay associated with that.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme. The early years of "Play like you have a pair" left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of interested gamers.



Yup. My experiences happened right in the middle of that marketing theme. WAAC was a way of life for those players I played.

A conversation went something like this -- with some minor editing most conversations were essentially the same:

Me: "I just started playing. I've got Menoth and I'm halfway through painting them. Would you like a friendly game? I could use some practice."
WAAC Player: "You have Menoth? They're too powerful right now. I won't play friendly games with you. I will pull out my Tourney list."
Me: "Um. I don't even have all my models assembled so can't field a balanced list yet."
WAAC Player: "You shouldn't have picked Menoth. You must have known they were the best when you picked them."
Me: "I like the color scheme and I like paladins and knights. What more of a reason do I need?"
WAAC Player: "You should really do more internet research before picking your army. Go buy another and I'll play a friendly list."
Me: "I can't afford that."
WAAC Player: "Your problem, not mine. Don't play Menoth around here unless it's a tourney."

I haven't pulled my Menoth army out except to inspect them after moving apartments since then. It's a shame. They were some really nice models.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 05:51:24


Post by: agustin


Why didn't you tell the guy to piss off and find another opponent? Menoth are certainly not the strongest faction. Just look at the constantly cycling top spots at the major tournaments, there simply is no top faction.

That guy would be a dick regardless of the game you are playing. Why not instead do some networking and exchange contact info with other people playing the game? It works so much better than hoping for a pick up game.

Send the guy a link to this thread so he can read how he's a chump for not being willing to play a new person just because they play a specific faction.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 06:18:45


Post by: CIsaac


agustin wrote:
Why didn't you tell the guy to piss off and find another opponent? Menoth are certainly not the strongest faction. Just look at the constantly cycling top spots at the major tournaments, there simply is no top faction.

That guy would be a dick regardless of the game you are playing. Why not instead do some networking and exchange contact info with other people playing the game? It works so much better than hoping for a pick up game.

Send the guy a link to this thread so he can read how he's a chump for not being willing to play a new person just because they play a specific faction.


This happened a few years back. Apotheosis was just coming out, I remember. I don't remember the guy's name and it was basically the viewpoint of the entire WM league, as that conversation happened in several different versions. At the time it was the only shop in the area I could find that had it. I had, before that, ordered all the models online and only been playing with one friend who owned just the Khador starter box using only the models from my starter box. I bought some more, found where the one league in DFW was at the time, and then... that happened.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 08:59:45


Post by: agustin


That sucks. I don't think Menoth was the strongest in MK1 either though. The crap you could pull with Legion, for example, was ridiculous in comparison-- though even then I'm not sure I could pick a clear strongest faction.

Have things changed over the intervening years? Perhaps it's time to see the beautiful models on the table? I bet you could find entirely new opponents if those guys are still around and mired in their group-think like that.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 09:13:38


Post by: gunslingerpro


Apotheosis was during the broken times of MKI. It was similar to people complaining about GK at the end of 40k 5th.

That said, that guy was quite clearly an asshat.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 09:53:08


Post by: RoninXiC


I have never ever played against a waac opponent. Never ever has anyone tried to f* me in the ass because I happened to be a newbie.

What they did was playing the game to the maximum. They destroyed me the first few times, but I actually felt very good after those game. It showed me that the game had a lot to offer. 40k/40k is all about rolling some dice. WH/Ho is about knowing the rules, coming up with combinations and finding weaknesses in the opponents play.

I loved getting destroyed for it showed my this game offered depth and a way to improve on your own abilities.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 10:24:37


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


I think a lot of people mistake playing the game to win for "WAAC" playing. The way to counteract that is to make it entirely clear you want to play a casual, relaxed, learning game.

I mean, I've been playing WMH for almost 6 years now, and I sometimes get my rear handed to me unexpectedly now and then. That just means I will never fall for that trap again


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 13:16:13


Post by: angel of ecstasy


Eh, Warmahordes players bleed just like everyone else.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 13:20:10


Post by: CIsaac


agustin wrote:
That sucks. I don't think Menoth was the strongest in MK1 either though. The crap you could pull with Legion, for example, was ridiculous in comparison-- though even then I'm not sure I could pick a clear strongest faction.

Have things changed over the intervening years? Perhaps it's time to see the beautiful models on the table? I bet you could find entirely new opponents if those guys are still around and mired in their group-think like that.


Yeah. That store shut down. More stores carry the product and even offer a permanent 25% off. I'm still working on getting my Space Marine army modeled though and I'm having real trouble getting any motivation to touch any of the old, unpainted, metal slugs of models from MK1 still in the closet. I already sold some unpainted Skorne models for more marine terminators.

The old 'never get a second chance to make a first impression' thing, I guess.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 13:54:57


Post by: Easy E


 angel of ecstasy wrote:
Eh, Warmahordes players bleed just like everyone else.


Source?



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 14:17:11


Post by: Blood Hawk


 CIsaac wrote:

Yup. My experiences happened right in the middle of that marketing theme. WAAC was a way of life for those players I played.

A conversation went something like this -- with some minor editing most conversations were essentially the same:

Me: "I just started playing. I've got Menoth and I'm halfway through painting them. Would you like a friendly game? I could use some practice."
WAAC Player: "You have Menoth? They're too powerful right now. I won't play friendly games with you. I will pull out my Tourney list."
Me: "Um. I don't even have all my models assembled so can't field a balanced list yet."
WAAC Player: "You shouldn't have picked Menoth. You must have known they were the best when you picked them."
Me: "I like the color scheme and I like paladins and knights. What more of a reason do I need?"
WAAC Player: "You should really do more internet research before picking your army. Go buy another and I'll play a friendly list."
Me: "I can't afford that."
WAAC Player: "Your problem, not mine. Don't play Menoth around here unless it's a tourney."

I haven't pulled my Menoth army out except to inspect them after moving apartments since then. It's a shame. They were some really nice models.

That situation isn't unique to warmachine in all honesty. I ran into the same situation with my grey knight army that I got in trade from a guy trying to get out the 40k hobby. The guys I know locally refuse to play them, and if they somehow do manage to agree to play it becomes an exercise in them giving up at the first possible opportunity, followed by a 20 minute bitch fest where they assume I am supposed be that crying shoulder for them as they bitch and bitch. Now I don't even bother bringing that army an more (I guess I am lucky I have multiple armies). I only get to play them at tournaments, but otherwise the army is just collecting dust. Which is a shame since they are really nice models.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 15:24:28


Post by: CIsaac


 Blood Hawk wrote:

That situation isn't unique to warmachine in all honesty. I ran into the same situation with my grey knight army that I got in trade from a guy trying to get out the 40k hobby. The guys I know locally refuse to play them, and if they somehow do manage to agree to play it becomes an exercise in them giving up at the first possible opportunity, followed by a 20 minute bitch fest where they assume I am supposed be that crying shoulder for them as they bitch and bitch. Now I don't even bother bringing that army an more (I guess I am lucky I have multiple armies). I only get to play them at tournaments, but otherwise the army is just collecting dust. Which is a shame since they are really nice models.


It's much more discouraging when trying to get into a game initially and when still trying to learn, trust me.

Maybe I'll try it again, one day, but I've got a lot on my hobby plate before that and I'm in no hurry.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 16:19:34


Post by: Mad4Minis


 gunslingerpro wrote:
Games Workshop has seemingly embraced that they are a model company, and have removed themselves from the gaming portion of the industry.



I guess thats a good thing, as their rules systems have continued to get worse. I am about to build a 40k army (leaning towards Tau) and finishing my wifes Daemons army. Im going to play my army a little bit in 6th 40k rules with a friend of mine, but both my army and my wifes will be used with the Shockforce/Warengine rules system when we play at home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:

Yup. My experiences happened right in the middle of that marketing theme. WAAC was a way of life for those players I played.

A conversation went something like this -- with some minor editing most conversations were essentially the same:

Me: "I just started playing. I've got Menoth and I'm halfway through painting them. Would you like a friendly game? I could use some practice."
WAAC Player: "You have Menoth? They're too powerful right now. I won't play friendly games with you. I will pull out my Tourney list."
Me: "Um. I don't even have all my models assembled so can't field a balanced list yet."
WAAC Player: "You shouldn't have picked Menoth. You must have known they were the best when you picked them."
Me: "I like the color scheme and I like paladins and knights. What more of a reason do I need?"
WAAC Player: "You should really do more internet research before picking your army. Go buy another and I'll play a friendly list."
Me: "I can't afford that."
WAAC Player: "Your problem, not mine. Don't play Menoth around here unless it's a tourney."

I haven't pulled my Menoth army out except to inspect them after moving apartments since then. It's a shame. They were some really nice models.

That situation isn't unique to warmachine in all honesty. I ran into the same situation with my grey knight army that I got in trade from a guy trying to get out the 40k hobby. The guys I know locally refuse to play them, and if they somehow do manage to agree to play it becomes an exercise in them giving up at the first possible opportunity, followed by a 20 minute bitch fest where they assume I am supposed be that crying shoulder for them as they bitch and bitch. Now I don't even bother bringing that army an more (I guess I am lucky I have multiple armies). I only get to play them at tournaments, but otherwise the army is just collecting dust. Which is a shame since they are really nice models.


A buddy of mine is just getting into 40k and picked GK, even before learning about them, just because ho likes the models and the whole "holy crusader" thing. Ive warned him several times that he will have a hard time finding a pick-up game, as many people want nothing to do with GK. Honesly, Im not really looking forward to playing them that much, as I know that once he gets better with the rules and gaming tactics in general Ill get pasted every time.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/01/29 16:59:22


Post by: Alfndrate


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thing is. I have nothing against the company really. I keep meaning to start it. I want too. But whenever I try, the people who give me advice always start badmouting GW, saying things like "This would cost X from GW" kinda points me away.
Most of the models looked great. PP seems nice, but their fan base around here DOESNT.


Pointing out cost differences doesn't mean you're bad mouthing GW. I'm a Henchman for Malifaux, my main job is to convince someone that Malifaux is the game for them, I tell them of the small model counts, the low cost of entry, and the unique mechanics you don't find in most other wargames (the card flipping, cheating fate, and alternating activations). But I'm also loyal to my FLGS because they're more supportive of my actions than my old store (I live an hour from the store I hench at, but it's only a 15 min drive from work lol ). So when the store owner is busy running his business and Magic Tournaments, I tend to field ANY questions about any of the war games he has in the store, which are 40k, Fantasy, Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, Flames of War, and Malifaux, all games I play. I try to find out what the person is looking for, if they want a small game, I point them towards Malifaux, the Hobbit, and Flames of War (for half of the Open Fire Box and 3 more tanks, I have a 1500 point army that I can play with little issue), if they want large battles, I suggest 40k, Fantasy, or Flames, if they want low cost... you get the point.

Anecdote spoilered below
Spoiler:
I was talking to a young man that had gotten like 250 bucks for Christmas and wanted to start up a war game. he was deadset on 40k, so I answered his questions, giving my honest opinions as someone that has played 40k and was soured in 5th edition by the people I played with and not the game (though 6th is making it hard for me to like it). I told him plenty of times that other games would get him more bang for his money, but if 40k is what he truly wanted then I would suggest, x, y, or z. Especially after narrowing it down that he wanted Dark Angels or Chaos. So I suggested getting Dark Vengeance and he could technically have both (paint them up as the fallen). Then I walked him over to the GW paints, and show him their new paint by numbers, and he walked out of there supporting 40k and not Malifaux. I showed him the game, gave him a demo, but in the end it didn't scratch the itch he wanted, cost wasn't what he was after... He wanted big games with lots of models, and wanted something his friends played.


I feel as though you're suggesting they're badmouthing GW with a phrase like that, but "This would cost X from GW" is simply a way of measuring costs. I can tell you that 50 dollars of GW will get you enough to start an army, but it'd be a lie, wheras I can say, "50 bucks will get you this Warmachine starter, or this Malifaux starter, deck, and rulebook and with each you'd have enough to play full, legal games. But w/e just try the games, if you have issues with the people that play them, buy a box or two and play at home with friends who won't be total wads to you.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 04:58:03


Post by: knightdrake


 CIsaac wrote:
silent25 wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:


For me there's also a rather particular story of a really jerky group of players that really soured me on the deal. I admit that it's personal experience, but I've not seen anything to change my mind about it. Whereas in this area we also one one of the best and most loyal old guard Outriders from the GW halcyon days still running the local scene and he does everything he can to foster a good environment so it's easy to want to stay associated with that.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme. The early years of "Play like you have a pair" left a bitter taste in the mouths of a lot of interested gamers.



Yup. My experiences happened right in the middle of that marketing theme. WAAC was a way of life for those players I played.

A conversation went something like this -- with some minor editing most conversations were essentially the same:

Me: "I just started playing. I've got Menoth and I'm halfway through painting them. Would you like a friendly game? I could use some practice."
WAAC Player: "You have Menoth? They're too powerful right now. I won't play friendly games with you. I will pull out my Tourney list."
Me: "Um. I don't even have all my models assembled so can't field a balanced list yet."
WAAC Player: "You shouldn't have picked Menoth. You must have known they were the best when you picked them."
Me: "I like the color scheme and I like paladins and knights. What more of a reason do I need?"
WAAC Player: "You should really do more internet research before picking your army. Go buy another and I'll play a friendly list."
Me: "I can't afford that."
WAAC Player: "Your problem, not mine. Don't play Menoth around here unless it's a tourney."

I haven't pulled my Menoth army out except to inspect them after moving apartments since then. It's a shame. They were some really nice models.


I've been playing WM in the Dallas area since 2004 and never encountered this type of behavior. Which did this happen at and when?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 15:09:22


Post by: CIsaac


knightdrake wrote:

I've been playing WM in the Dallas area since 2004 and never encountered this type of behavior. Which did this happen at and when?


As I mentioned before, the store has shut down. It was about 06-07. I don't remember the name, but it was in the North Dallas suburbs. Richardson/Plano area I believe. The store was a mix of Mini gaming and Cyber Cafe with computers filling the areas that tables didn't.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 17:17:31


Post by: knightdrake


I was a Pressganger at that time at Gamewyze in Plano, which fits your description. Really sad to learn someone treated you that way. If it was at Gamewyze, I ran that league and allowed playing games against non-league members to count. Gave them a +1 hospitality bonus for doing so as I believe no gamer should miss out. I would of been all over them for that attitude.

Time has passed on this but if this experience was at Gamewyze then accept a late apology as I don't run a group with that type of attitude.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 17:36:05


Post by: Rainbow Dash


it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 17:51:12


Post by: PhantomViper


 Rainbow Dash wrote:
it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon


I really don't care if you take up the game or not so don't take this as any type of attempt to "convert" you.

But there is no such thing as a power gamer in WMH, there is no such thing as an internet list that plays itself in WMH, there is no such thing as any type of army or list that gets "tabled" without any chance to do anything about it or where all you have to do is roll dice and you'll win!

I'm not going to lie and say that some units aren't more powerful and some units aren't less powerful, perfect balance in any game with the complexity of a tabletop wargame is impossible to achieve. But when it comes down to it, player skill will trump unit power in the vast majority of times.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:01:53


Post by: Piston Honda


Magic dominates here, getting anywhere from 40 to 60 people each friday. On big tournaments they get over 100 getting people from other states.

for miniatures games 40k is still king followed by Malifaux.

Lot of people own warhammer very few play it. fewer have any painted.

Warmachine started to get popular back in 2008, then it died some how.

Love the models for Warmachine/Hordes (in particular the Troll Bloods) but the game seems rather intimidating. Everywhere you look it seems like it is all driven by competitive tournament style games and events, basically a relaxed casual gamer such as I myself finds it a bit more in your face than other games. Malifaux is rather enjoyable for that reason.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:02:51


Post by: Rainbow Dash


well GW has jaded me game wise, I should give hordes (since I own the rulebook) a try, hopefully the people here are nice


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:03:19


Post by: Grimtuff


PhantomViper wrote:
 Rainbow Dash wrote:
it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon


I really don't care if you take up the game or not so don't take this as any type of attempt to "convert" you.

But there is no such thing as a power gamer in WMH, there is no such thing as an internet list that plays itself in WMH, there is no such thing as any type of army or list that gets "tabled" without any chance to do anything about it or where all you have to do is roll dice and you'll win!

I'm not going to lie and say that some units aren't more powerful and some units aren't less powerful, perfect balance in any game with the complexity of a tabletop wargame is impossible to achieve. But when it comes down to it, player skill will trump unit power in the vast majority of times.


This.

There's no netlists or "one list to rule them all" in WMH. You just don't see those kinds of things like you do with 40k such as CronAir or Leafblower IG for example.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:05:12


Post by: knightdrake


WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:07:41


Post by: Rainbow Dash


knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.


suppose then I will just have to learn what to look for and avoid them like the plague


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:19:45


Post by: Grimtuff


knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.


You're missing my point. Unlike in 40k where you will continually see "This is the only army X list to take EVER if you wish to remain competitive!" and this is the one and only one list you're supposed to take throughout that codex's lifespan in a particular edition. You just do not see this kind of thing in WMH, yes there are some factions that are generally regarded as being above the curve (Cryx, Legion) you don't see Cryx or Legion ROFLstomping every tournament across the land like you do with certain FOTM 40k lists.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:21:19


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:22:02


Post by: Chongara


 Rainbow Dash wrote:
knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.


suppose then I will just have to learn what to look for and avoid them like the plague


You're still approaching things from a very 40k sort of mindset. I'll see if I can elaborate a bit on what some of the posters are getting at here:

The first thing is that while certainly are some models that are generally more powerful than others and some specific combos will appear across a variety of lists, outside of some very specific kind of skew stuff say Double Stormwall + eHaley there is relatively few lists you can look at go "Ok this is going to be a really bad play experience, and nothing I can do will change that" or "Only very specific lists can deal with this". I mean you can generally spot a caster or specific models that will always give you fits but if you make a point of avoiding those you'll be avoiding *Everything*. It's not like just 1 faction or just 1 model per faction has some killer ability that can lead to a blowout if not addressed, it's every faction and a fair number of models in each faction that can do that.

In 40k listing building is really about finding a first order optimal strategy. Find what gives you the biggest bang for your points, spam it up to the FOC limit, then move on to the second best thing, spam it. Etc.. *


That really isn't the overall approach in Warmahordes. It's about picking tools "ok I want to use this to deal with armor and this to deal with infantry, im going to take this and this to help me deliver that, and I'm going to take this as defensive insurance against that". An army built to win by killing the enemy caster will look different than one built to win on the scenario, which will look different than one built to win by attrition all within the same faction or even caster.

In general you have to look at it like you might look at MTG or Starcraft. There are several proven approaches to the various problems that can arise from your opponents and how the game plays, and certainly things that don't really work. However, really no matter what you're playing there is either going to be a change in approach or a small change in list composition that will let you deal with whatever you struggle against.

I mean within general limits of course. If your entire thing is "I wanna run Amon-Ad Raza, with nothing but multiple max units of Flameguard Cleanses and Deliverers plus a Crusader" well yeah that's going to land on it's face. However, that's kind of a trade off you get with a game that really rewards deliberate list construction.


*This isn't to say spam never works, spam lists exist however they're trying to accomplish something specific with that and it's going to have a huge exploitable weakness.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:27:52


Post by: PhantomViper


knightdrake wrote:
WM does have its share of top tier builds so saying there is no power game isn't fully true. There is a noticeable difference between a competitive player and casual. This would be the power gamer factor that gives the player base a bad rep. Then again I have seen this playing 40k, Infinity and other games so is an issue in any game played. WAAC is some players fun in gaming where others it can be more social.


No, they haven't. Look at various tournaments top 10 and you'll see the vast majority of the 11 factions represented therein. Look at the factions that are repeated and you'll see completely different lists. Its true that there are a few lists that people consider to be "top tier". Funny thing about those lists? No one seems to be able to win anything with them except for their original creators!

If someone doesn't know enough about their faction / game that he needs to copy a list of the internet, chances are that he doesn't know enough about the game / faction to be able to win with that same list...


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:29:16


Post by: Rainbow Dash


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


no it doesnt, the models themselves in PP are more pts, thusly you need less of them, besides if you buy the intro box, forget what its called, thats a fully legal army, right there, for like 50 bucks... no army in warhammer can get close to playable for 50 dollars
the books are also much cheaper


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/01 18:29:36


Post by: PhantomViper


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?


The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/02 02:27:26


Post by: AduroT


PhantomViper wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?


The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...


And he did it because people told him Cygnar can't win. Of course Cygnar forums mostly called it invalid because he used a lot of Mercs in one of his lists. He's moved back to Cryx this year again though with his favorite eLich and Denny Pirates.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/02 03:03:34


Post by: Chongara


 AduroT wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?


The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...


And he did it because people told him Cygnar can't win. Of course Cygnar forums mostly called it invalid because he used a lot of Mercs in one of his lists. He's moved back to Cryx this year again though with his favorite eLich and Denny Pirates.


That's a damn silly argument. The merc models Cygnar has access to are a part of what the faction can bring to the table, it's silly to arbitrarily say which tools do or don't count. You might as well say any win with Asphexious doesn't count because "He was totally a circle before".


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/02 05:41:30


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


But at least it's still fluffy, is it not?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/03 00:54:50


Post by: Surtur


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
But at least it's still fluffy, is it not?


Yep! Cygnar hires mercs from time to time so it's not out of the question.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/03 01:58:53


Post by: malfred


Trolls and Arcane Shield = Shudder


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/03 16:31:19


Post by: GreySkull


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im sorry to say this. The PP doesnt care about you. A company never cares about you. its cares about your money. It puts on the facade of caring so you will spent your money on them.


I know it doesn't, and I know they only care about money. I'm an adult, not an idiot and I'll thank you very much for not talking to me like I'm a child.

With that out of the way I 'll just say I'll never buy another product from GW. I'm tired of their price-gouging and disrespect for their fans. I'll play the skirmish games, but I'm not money on their products ever again. I learned that lesson a long time ago.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 00:40:29


Post by: AduroT


Saying that a company never cares about you and only cares about your money is stupid though. There's no reason they can't care about both. I honestly feel like PP Does care about it's customers, though that's not to say I don't think they care about or put more priority on money.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 01:07:15


Post by: boyd


We have 2 good press gangers in Orlando. Cuevas and another press ganger from Melbourne/Palm Bay started the big tournament - the Crucible. Chris plays WHFB too which is how I got pulled into Hordes. We are lucky in Orlando - we have 5 different shops and you can find a game for any system. One shop caters to PP, one has a great leagues (pp, GW), one is always hosting a 40k tournament on the weekend, we have a small GW shop where you can find a good number of WHFB players, and another that is big on 40k and LotR. Also if you're within a 2 hour drive from Orlando, the press ganger gets the guys to go on a crusade and travel to wherever. They've gone as far north as Jacksonville and as far south as Miami. So we have an active PP group and a large 40k following since some weeks we have 2-3 weekly tournies.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 01:53:07


Post by: NoQuestionzAsked


PhantomViper wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


You are wrong.


Do not say "You are wrong" Explain yourself.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 02:34:51


Post by: nobody


There is a warmahordes presence at my LGS, but they only seem to show up for the scheduled warmahordes night and for tournaments...I rarely see them on open gaming nights. Open gaming night is usually 40k, with some FoW and Malifaux, and maybe a table of Infinity.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 03:11:54


Post by: carmachu


For us, ist all warmachine/hordes. We all grew up over a decade ago (or more) on fantasy and 40k, but fantasy has died a screaming death as all the die hards finally threw up their hands in disgust over 8th. 40k died before that, as it was getting annoying with GW and their antics in rules, waiting for codex to get update. and the newest edition got no traction.

warmahordes fills alot of itches GW no longer does- it can played easier as a fun game or as a cut throat tournment prep. Modeling and painting are filled as well. The rules are tight, no arguements and rules get clarified with regularity. And as the OP pointed out, the entry is SO MUCH easier to get into, battle box and your good to go for a start. easier to build modularly- 15,25,35,50 pt games go much faster then 1500-2000 and switching casters is easier.

But ultimately what alot of us enjoy is the fact of everyone gets something with every release. No more DE player needing 9 years for an update, no ork player languishing over waiting while 4 marine books come out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
Saying that a company never cares about you and only cares about your money is stupid though. There's no reason they can't care about both. I honestly feel like PP Does care about it's customers, though that's not to say I don't think they care about or put more priority on money.


PP cares about the customer long haul. They want them coming back, you can see it in how they handle their customers and game problems.

GW does not. You can see it how it handles veteran players vs new players. GW is all about the churn. Its all about the shiney.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 10:14:57


Post by: PhantomViper


 NoQuestionzAsked wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
See, That is what Ticks me off, People say PP is cheaper, it is not. I still see gigantically stupid prices. It may only costt 100$ to get in, But it will cost you the same to expand as it would a GW game.


You are wrong.


Do not say "You are wrong" Explain yourself.


I don't need to explain myself, there are literally tens of threads where these arguments are thrown about and in every single one of them it has been proven that GW is significantly more expensive than any other miniature game on the market.
















Now lets just wait for the predictable arguments stating that if you play 40K with a single squad box then it really, really, really is a cheap and affordable game...


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 12:59:45


Post by: Chongara


PhantomViper wrote:


I don't need to explain myself, there are literally tens of threads where these arguments are thrown about and in every single one of them it has been proven that GW is significantly more expensive than any other miniature game on the market.

Now lets just wait for the predictable arguments stating that if you play 40K with a single squad box then it really, really, really is a cheap and affordable game...


As someone has played both, I can certainly say I spent more assembling a shrimpy little Space Wolves force than I have getting the ability to field a healthy variety of 50pts lists for Protectorate of Menoth, and that was before a couple of the more recent rounds of GW price hikes. Yeah it's been done to death, but I don't mind beating a dead horse.

Anyway I've been wanting to jump into Circle recently so I put together a 35pt list that I'd want to jump on right away so I could be right at my playgroup's most common points level. I'll copy/paste the shopping cart I still have saved for reference


Ghetorix Character Heavy Warbeast Upgrade Kit Circle Blister PIP72062 $11.89
Kromac the Ravenous Warlock Circle of Orboros Blister PIP72020 $20.99
Shifting Stones Unit Circle Blister PIP72016 $8.39
Stone Keeper Unit Attachment Circle Blister PIP72051 $6.99
Stoneward & Woldstalkers Unit Circle Box PIP72041 $17.49
2 Feral / Pureblood / Stalker Warpwolf Heavy Warbeast Kit Circle Box PIP72057 $48.98
Gorax Resculpt Light Warbeast Circle Blister PIP72055 $15.39
Lord of the Feast Character Solo Circle of Orboros Blister $9.09
Druid Wilder Warlock Attachment Circle Blister PIP72049 $5.59

Total: $144.80 (This is obviously a discounted price at an online retailer which 40k has as well, but I found they were typically smaller discounts and really annoying to get because GW doesn't let you use online shopping carts at those stores)

This probably one of the more expensive ways to jump to 35pts as I'm not using any of the starter kits, I'm going with a beefy two-model medium base caster who costs more than twice as much as some other good options. With about $70 more worth of models I could have get enough pieces to run 35pts lists under about 2-3 more casters, and have a solid 50pts list under at least one. I think in terms of popularity of common points levels that are events are played at, these are probably analogous to 1500 & 2000 points in 40k respectively but someone feel free to correct me.


I just hopped over the GW site and a Space Marine tactical squad is $37.50 MSRP and is probably about what, 200/1500 pts? Forgive me if this is off I've not played 40k in a while.

A box of Exemplar Errants is $49.99 MSRP and is 8/35 pts.

Granted they're both 10 dudes so you're getting a lower price per model on the Space Marines. However, in terms of value as "Dollars per % of a viable army" the Errants are ahead. This is Space Marine infantry and probably the most favorable comparison you're going to get to GW stuff. If you're going into armies with relatively low value troopers like Ork Boyz or Guardsmen the difference is going to be huge.

I'm looking at a Dreadnought and that's now $46.50 MSRP and is again like 200/1500pts or so? The Reckoner/Sanctifier/Castigator kit is $34.99 MSRP and is 8/35 pts. They're also comparably sized big stompy robots.

I think I'd concede that the overall price per model is probably fairly similar on infantry lists, but even at the most infantry spammy you're not going to need as many dudes. The price per army is just flat out no contest, and on big value models like beasts & jacks vs dreads or single characters it's really no contest in value or price per model.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 18:51:35


Post by: Deadnight


 Rainbow Dash wrote:
it always did seem warmahordes had a more power game-y feel to it, which I abhor in a game
the simple concept of a game being fun is a rare thing these days, with warhammer, I'd not even take my army out if they were playing one of the broken armies.
I didn't feel like taking all those orcs or goblins out to be slaughtered turn 2
complete waste of time, I'm not a noob anymore, I know what I want from the miniature hobby and fighting internet lists tooled to table you before you can do much of anything is not my idea of fun (or even vice versa)
as nice as the trolls and minions are, I don't think I'll be taking up the actual game anytime soon


With all due respect, you are very much approaching this with a GW-centric point of view.

you talk of power gaming as a huge negative (no... wait. Hear me out), not bothering when someone takes out a broken army (and i can empathise. Iron Warriors in fourth edition really drove me from the game). you talk of internet lists tooled to take you apart. And most importantly, you talk of "fun", as very much being the antithesis of "powergaming" - that in itself is a hallmark of the GW-centric thinking. And i say this with genuine regret that that is your experience, that that is what defines your point of view.

It always saddens me that in general in the 40k community, competitive gaming is laced with such negative vibes that you show. that somehow, competitive gaming is "doing it wrong". And the funny thing is, i can see how you would come to that point of view wen playing 40k games. We all have those horror stories of GK, and Leafblower spam armies that destroy our own in a turn or two. In my case, it was Iron Warriors back in fourth against my tau. You never really had a chance. And as such, those "power lists" get such a hugely negative vibe attached to them. But is it because of their power level? I dont think so. Is it because the other guy had a desire to win? I dont think so. I think its something more. I think this whole thing of competitive gaming, and powergaming being bad, and ruining your experience is only due to your own narrow perception. And believe me, i dont say this in a bad way. I've found in general people who play GW games tend to have a very narrow and skewed view of things. And its not that they're bad folks, or bad gamers. It boils down to the fact that thats all they've been exposed to. That and the self perpetuating moaning and groaning that is the 40k community. a group of 40k players is jokingly called a "whine" for a reason! What im trying to say is, what if your experience of powergaming being bad was only because of this narrow point of view? What if, elsewhere, "powergaming" as known in 40k circles isnt an issue. And thats how i see it. the negativity of the 40k community only reinforces this skewed attittude where you feel that when you win, you must almost apologise to your opponent. "doing your best" is frowned on and a pathetic little whiny "dont hurt me", "dont play too hard", and "if no one wins, no one loses" kind of attitude seems to be the order of the day.
To me, the problem boils down to a lack of balance. Only certain codices are good. within those codices, only certain builds are good. Maybe 20% of the options out there are "good", whilst the rest are mediocre, bad, or plain old pointless. So a guy who builds a list based on the top options versus a guy who takes bits and pieces? What happens? optimisation wins. he will nuke the other guy. And as such, competitve gaming is seen in a negative light. powergamers ruin the game.

But what if it wasnt this case. What if all the options were good? What if it was you, and not your list, that won a game? Here is the thing. In warmachine, everything is broken. Everything can be built into a game winning strategy. Powergaming isnt an issue, because everything is built with the same attitude. that powergamer who ruined your games of 40k with his broken lists? Yeah, warmachine makes him dead ordinary. your skills are what matter, not your army lists. All of a sudden, all that whining you're used to doesnt make any sense. you see it as the buzzing in your ear that it really is. you are on the same page as your opponent. there is less whining and moaning, less chat of "thats too broken!!! nerf it", and more Page 5. I've demoed this game to a lot of folks, and a lot of folks were surprised by the sense of freedom they found in both the game, and the community. all that stuff in GW games that you hated in GW games doesnt really seem to matter.

How would you feel if the concept of "powergaming" as seen in 40k circles didnt exist? What if it boiled down to you just playing a game, and doing your best.
How about you got to see the "fun" side to the full metal mayhem that is warmachine, instead of shuddering inside because something is "too powerful". embrace the beast i say, and you'll realise its not the monster you make it out to be. its just 40k that makes it seem such a way.
How would you feel if that powerful list came out, and all of a sudden, you want to take it on? Because you can? Because Page5 instills in you an attitude of taking on the big dogs. because you're a big dog yourself. no need to run and hide, and whine later on dakka. How would you feel to be able to say you took it on with pride? 40k doesnt let you do that. warmachine encourages it.
What if those turn two slaughters you abbhor didnt happen? What if your armies abilities to do well were down to you, and your skills as a gamer, and not the codex you followed? When you lose, its because you lost fair and square, you simply got outplayed, not because your opponent took a FOTM army against yours, whilst you've been waiting 10 years for an update. What if a single dice roll could have swung it. a single mistake, or decision, attack here, or go there? How you played, not what you took. Afraid of turn 2 massacres, and facing off against clearly more powerful forced? Well, What if yours were just as capable of taking it on the chin, and fighting back on equal terms?
Internet lists tooled to beat you? Doesnt happen. Ask a Space Wolf player what list works, and he'll tell you X, Y and Z. Ask a khador player what list works, and he'll answer with pretty much most of the khador roster. Look at the tournament results. Look at the lists that go up. No one ever really plays the same list. Players win tournaments. Not armies.

I apologise for going off on a tangent Rainbow. But really, try the game out. your experience from 40k - well, in my mind, a lot of it is irrelevant. Most important thing i learned when i picked up warmachine, and what i pass on to everybody i teach how to play is if you've learned wargaming from GW, then be prepared to forget everything you think you know, and prepare for a whole new way of thinking.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 22:38:44


Post by: carmachu


PhantomViper wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?


The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...


What list was he playing? Is there a link to his overview?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/04 23:36:03


Post by: Blood Hawk


carmachu wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Though unlike GW, other factions that aren't Cryx or Legion can easily win games. Wasn't the winner of some recent big US tournament a Circle player?


The winner of the biggest, most prestigious tournament in Warmahordes was playing Cygnar...


What list was he playing? Is there a link to his overview?

Well there was a video camera set up filming the final game, you should be able to figure out what is in his list from the video. http://teamcovenant.com/blog/2012/11/08/wmw-finals-video/

Edit: Here the list I found on the cygnar forum on the privateer press website

Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Rangers (5pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Journeyman Warcaster (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)

VS.

Grand Scrutator Severius (*6pts)
* Redeemer (6pts)
* Redeemer (6pts)
* Reckoner (8pts)
Vessel of Judgement (9pts)
Vessel of Judgement (9pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Errants (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard Bearer (2pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Vassal Mechanik (1pts)


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 00:19:06


Post by: Mattman154


 Blood Hawk wrote:


Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Rangers (5pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Journeyman Warcaster (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)


Damn, 9/14 things taken were Mercs. I guess that's what they're there for!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 01:33:49


Post by: xraytango


 AduroT wrote:
Depends on Which ten guys. Their upcoming ten and thirteen man Winterguard boxes are both only fifty. The ~$80+ units tend to be the more parts heavy knights and such with more or larger parts.



Still cheaper than a full squad of Terminators $100.00-$120.00 per ten.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 01:37:16


Post by: Panzeh


I kinda think that the advantage of Warmahordes is the tight rules and the way you don't have to treat it sort of like a roleplaying hobby game. You can sit down and play it building good lists and trying to win, and not feel like you're breaking the game to do it.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 08:22:43


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


Mattman154 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:


Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Rangers (5pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Journeyman Warcaster (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)


Damn, 9/14 things taken were Mercs. I guess that's what they're there for!


I enjoyed Muse on Minis (I think it was) fluff justification of the battle. Caine is relaxing in a bar with his pal Reinholdt, leering at the women, making the Journeyman uncomfortable and using the Squire to as a table for his drinks.Then a Ranger Swift Sergeant runs in and exclaims "holy %&#, Severius just rolled into town with two battle engines!" So Caine and company head outside, throw some coin at the mercenaries relaxing outside, fire up the jacks on the fly and run out to meet old man Sevvie in the streets of the finals table:



...and then they get down to business


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 14:00:39


Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)


Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
Mattman154 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:


Captain Allister Caine (*5pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Alexia Ciannor & the Risen (Alexia and 9 Risen Grunts) (5pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Rangers (5pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Journeyman Warcaster (3pts)
Ragman (2pts)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)


Damn, 9/14 things taken were Mercs. I guess that's what they're there for!


I enjoyed Muse on Minis (I think it was) fluff justification of the battle. Caine is relaxing in a bar with his pal Reinholdt, leering at the women, making the Journeyman uncomfortable and using the Squire to as a table for his drinks.Then a Ranger Swift Sergeant runs in and exclaims "holy %&#, Severius just rolled into town with two battle engines!" So Caine and company head outside, throw some coin at the mercenaries relaxing outside, fire up the jacks on the fly and run out to meet old man Sevvie in the streets of the finals table:



...and then they get down to business



Had to exault that!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 14:07:11


Post by: malfred


I hope no one brought trenchers or dygmies to that table


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 16:31:05


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


I've noticed that the Warmachine players are generally older. The 40k players are younger. The 40k players often decide to play massive 2 vs 2 3000 point battles just for fun while the WM players take a very organised mindset to the game - 35 points max, kill the caster, etc. Which is not a bad way to play at all. I've had more tense WM games than 40k games.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 16:42:06


Post by: CIsaac


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I've noticed that the Warmachine players are generally older. The 40k players are younger.


It's typically the opposite from what I've seen around here. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 18:32:16


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


Our local WMH guys are also considerably older, as many of them - like me - got back into wargaming with WMH. 40k has the younger crowd and WHFB somewhere in between. We actually have the numbers for this, as we got the ages of the players for the recent multi-system Nationals.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 18:36:12


Post by: Mattman154


Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
Our local WMH guys are also considerably older, as many of them - like me - got back into wargaming with WMH. 40k has the younger crowd and WHFB somewhere in between. We actually have the numbers for this, as we got the ages of the players for the recent multi-system Nationals.


Would you be able to post those statistics? Not trying to argue, just curious


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 18:40:17


Post by: RatBot


While I can't speak for the local 40K players, at my store the only person under the age of 18 who play Warmahordes is the Press Ganger's son.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 18:43:50


Post by: MaCa


No WMH exodus here. The city I live in is small (200k people) and we've got about 20-25 people playing 40k, a little more playing WFB and I know 3 people into WMH.

I can see why MHW might be more popular elsewhere, but Poland is usually one of the slowest to react to change, especially when it comes to "luxury" stuff such as miniature collectible wargames. We're a bit slow on the uptake, and since GW successfully invaded our region and occupied its player base, it never really saw any visible competition.

It might be different in larger cities though. Here's to hoping that other games, including WMH, will threaten GW enough for them to stop being lazy and start finally considering their business model more than just miniature sculpting.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/05 19:02:27


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


There were 50 or so guys at the Polish Masters in Krakow in November, one of our local (as in Oslo, Norway) polish players got us to go.

Mattman154 wrote:
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
Our local WMH guys are also considerably older, as many of them - like me - got back into wargaming with WMH. 40k has the younger crowd and WHFB somewhere in between. We actually have the numbers for this, as we got the ages of the players for the recent multi-system Nationals.


Would you be able to post those statistics? Not trying to argue, just curious


I don't have them myself, they were relayed to me at the debrief last week. It is mainly important because this year, one of our backers were an umbrella organization for "fantastic pasttimes" that get community funding for youth activities, so we had to have the numbers on everybody since there was extra funding involved depending on how many people under the age of 26 signed up.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/14 20:46:10


Post by: clively


 CIsaac wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I've noticed that the Warmachine players are generally older. The 40k players are younger.


It's typically the opposite from what I've seen around here. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.


I was in a local store the other day picking up some paint. Two old guys were playing a FoW game and talking about how 40k'ers were just a bunch of "young punks". First off, I'm 40, so take that as you will. Second, the people I've seen play in 40k tournaments in that store range from 16 to 60; with a median somewhere between the mid 20s to mid 30s. Those guys would probably have classified me as a young punk!

Point is: not only is anecdotal evidence well, anecdotal; words like "younger" and "older" are relative to the speaker. For someone in their 50 to 60s, just about everyone is "younger". For someone in their teens, just about everyone is "older". I'm not making a claim as to either CIsaac or ExNoctemNacimur's ages; rather, just pointing out that "younger" to me is 30, whereas that would be "older", or even "ancient" from my kids point of view.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/14 20:53:06


Post by: Polonius


I think you're more likely to see a working adult get into WMH than into GW. That's supposition, but WMH has a lower buy in, and low point games are still fun and meaningful. So, a person can buy a battlebox, then the rulebook, then the faction book, then a few units, and slowly build their way up.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/15 02:26:59


Post by: malfred


 Polonius wrote:
I think you're more likely to see a working adult get into WMH than into GW. That's supposition, but WMH has a lower buy in, and low point games are still fun and meaningful. So, a person can buy a battlebox, then the rulebook, then the faction book, then a few units, and slowly build their way up.



I don't understand the logic here?

You're saying that someone with a job will play WMH but that they have to spend less?

I think there's a second argument you have to make about how GW targets younger gamers
who don't need jobs or something like that.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/15 09:46:47


Post by: Herzlos


It might have something to do with people who are earning the money looking for more value in stuff.

If you equate that Deathwing squad to half a days work, you might be less inclined to splash out on it when there are cheaper systems out there.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/15 12:09:37


Post by: Chongara


 malfred wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
I think you're more likely to see a working adult get into WMH than into GW. That's supposition, but WMH has a lower buy in, and low point games are still fun and meaningful. So, a person can buy a battlebox, then the rulebook, then the faction book, then a few units, and slowly build their way up.



I don't understand the logic here?

You're saying that someone with a job will play WMH but that they have to spend less?

I think there's a second argument you have to make about how GW targets younger gamers
who don't need jobs or something like that.


I think the point may be if you're a yougin' mostly spending your parents money or just dumping what you get after school from slingin' burgers you don't mind dropping your money without really thinking about it. If you're a working adult with bills, rent/mortgage, a partner, maybe even a carpet demon or two your money is worth more to you, even if you have a larger pool to spend. I think this is especially true if you're a working adult that doesn't have a particularly high income.

There are folks in my playgroup who can afford to maybe buy a new warjack every 2-3 months. They just don't have the money to do much else. Still since even single piece swap-outs can really change the feel of a list for WM/H that maybe $26.00 they spend on a warjack kit goes a lot longer way to changing their play experiences than that same $26.00 would in 40k.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/16 23:30:26


Post by: Kajon


My local 40k group consists of people who lacks time and have been playing 40k since a long way back and built up a huge collection. They mostly just want to paint nice models and play occasionally. The prices are no huge issues.

But I recently begun playing Malifaux at a other store where everyone had switched from 40k to WM/H as they felt it was a better competitive game.

So I don't think personal experience counts so much as everyone's local group is different.

But I would start playing WM/H myself if I liked the models and didn't have such a huge 40k collection.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/17 00:20:23


Post by: The Dark Apostle


My guess I'd that's it's gonna be a domioe effect, as one gets richer the smelly-sweaty-nerdy fanbase migrates to the other as the rich turns into what GW currently is, a diva of pure-bred nerds who want nothing more than money. Although the process will take about 10 years per migration, I think in 2030 it'll be down to about a migration of 5 years.

The other outcome, some other war-game comes out that turns "mainstream" I.e. On the levels of xbox. Now wargaming is well known and this game turns to a horrible mixture of games workshop, Microsoft, apple and Disney!

Think about it; you pay a subscription along with the usual stuff that's 2x times the price of 40k, but every edition only changes 2 rules, comes out every 6 months and armies become redundant after each new edition! It'll be hell!

But the positive side, 40k becomes yet again an outcast, fairly expensive hobby that few play. Just like it was in the 1990's


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/17 00:24:32


Post by: hotsauceman1


Herzlos wrote:
It might have something to do with people who are earning the money looking for more value in stuff.

If you equate that Deathwing squad to half a days work, you might be less inclined to splash out on it when there are cheaper systems out there.

I never equate my days work to my hoppy expenses. Or else it would not be worth it. For example, A blister is 20 or so dollors from many places. For me, that is 3 hours work from a job i really dislike. If i think "would i go through the 3 hours of cutting onions for this blister" i would never buy anything.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/17 00:34:59


Post by: marielle


 malfred wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
I think you're more likely to see a working adult get into WMH than into GW. That's supposition, but WMH has a lower buy in, and low point games are still fun and meaningful. So, a person can buy a battlebox, then the rulebook, then the faction book, then a few units, and slowly build their way up.



I don't understand the logic here?

You're saying that someone with a job will play WMH but that they have to spend less?

I think there's a second argument you have to make about how GW targets younger gamers
who don't need jobs or something like that.


You are missing the meme of the thread - WM/H is for employed adults who play competitive manly games - you need to have bought into the NLP to understand.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/17 16:39:40


Post by: gunslingerpro


marielle wrote:
 malfred wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
I think you're more likely to see a working adult get into WMH than into GW. That's supposition, but WMH has a lower buy in, and low point games are still fun and meaningful. So, a person can buy a battlebox, then the rulebook, then the faction book, then a few units, and slowly build their way up.



I don't understand the logic here?

You're saying that someone with a job will play WMH but that they have to spend less?

I think there's a second argument you have to make about how GW targets younger gamers
who don't need jobs or something like that.


You are missing the meme of the thread - WM/H is for employed adults who play competitive manly games - you need to have bought into the NLP to understand.


Or, y'know, this:

Chongara wrote:
If you're a working adult with bills, rent/mortgage, a partner, maybe even a carpet demon or too your money is worth more to you, even if you have a larger pool to spend. I think this is especially true if you're a working adult that doesn't have a particularly high income.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/17 17:42:42


Post by: Bobthehero


Can't say I've asked around, but considering there are 110 members in our facebook group and we're usually filling every tables at the FLGS when we meet up, I'd say WH40k is going strong, I know there's a bunch of WH players and some Dust as well, don't know much about their numbers.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/21 15:52:12


Post by: Easy E


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It might have something to do with people who are earning the money looking for more value in stuff.

If you equate that Deathwing squad to half a days work, you might be less inclined to splash out on it when there are cheaper systems out there.

I never equate my days work to my hoppy expenses. Or else it would not be worth it. For example, A blister is 20 or so dollors from many places. For me, that is 3 hours work from a job i really dislike. If i think "would i go through the 3 hours of cutting onions for this blister" i would never buy anything.


Sorry to tell you this, but that is EXACTLY how you need to start thinking about things.

If you want to get mor ecomplex, you can reduce the cost by also figuring in the time you will spend using the product vs other products.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 05:01:48


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


clively wrote:
 CIsaac wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I've noticed that the Warmachine players are generally older. The 40k players are younger.


It's typically the opposite from what I've seen around here. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.


I was in a local store the other day picking up some paint. Two old guys were playing a FoW game and talking about how 40k'ers were just a bunch of "young punks". First off, I'm 40, so take that as you will. Second, the people I've seen play in 40k tournaments in that store range from 16 to 60; with a median somewhere between the mid 20s to mid 30s. Those guys would probably have classified me as a young punk!

Point is: not only is anecdotal evidence well, anecdotal; words like "younger" and "older" are relative to the speaker. For someone in their 50 to 60s, just about everyone is "younger". For someone in their teens, just about everyone is "older". I'm not making a claim as to either CIsaac or ExNoctemNacimur's ages; rather, just pointing out that "younger" to me is 30, whereas that would be "older", or even "ancient" from my kids point of view.



Good point!

The WM/H players often are 16 and up while the 40k players are generally 13-ish. It is very anecdotal evidence, but it may be useful to someone, somewhere, in the mists of time.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 15:39:00


Post by: privateer4hire


Local group pretty much will only play 40k or Warmahordes. There's a small resurge of WHFB and some interest in X-Wing.

Seems to be a 20s-30s group but fairly large and very active.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 16:25:38


Post by: cincydooley


So... If I'm a working adult and my money is more valuable to me then the logical conclusion is that I'd avoid 40k?

That doesn't seem to make any sense.



Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 16:59:37


Post by: agustin


It makes loads of sense. You simply get more for your gaming dollar in terms of total game experience with WM/H than you do with 40k. Go with 40k if modeling and painting is more important to you than gaming, but if gaming is your thing, PP's games will be better value for the money.

EDIT: Assuming of course that you enjoy the type of game play PP's games offer.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 17:01:41


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


. . . unless you don't like PP's games.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 17:09:56


Post by: agustin


Yes, i edited my post accordingly.

If you want a game where you just have a blast rolling dice and make some pew-pew laser sounds while you have toy soldiers kill each other, then 40k is perfectly fine. It's a game that doesn't really do well when you take it seriously though.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 17:18:35


Post by: cincydooley


 agustin wrote:
Yes, i edited my post accordingly.

If you want a game where you just have a blast rolling dice and make some pew-pew laser sounds while you have toy soldiers kill each other, then 40k is perfectly fine. It's a game that doesn't really do well when you take it seriously though.


So if I "value my money" I should pick the one I like more. Wow. Mind blowing stuff there.

But if im a "serious and mature" gamer I shouldn't buy GW. Ahh. Got it.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/23 19:52:01


Post by: NAVARRO


 agustin wrote:
It makes loads of sense. Go with 40k if modeling and painting is more important to you than gaming,



Modelling and painting is more important to me... thats why I love to paint and collect the chunky metals from PP and use GW for the converting fix... Don't see why you assume PP is less hobby orientated just because its not packed with thousands of extra bitz... I mean the goal is to paint a mini and field it and PP metals do that as good if not better than GW. ( detail wise there is no comparison the PP metals with the GW plastics)


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 14:03:41


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


I think he means that with GW plastics, there are loads of parts and interchangable kits that result in nearly endless possibilities with just the plastics and glue but with PP it's a bit harder.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 14:25:18


Post by: hotsauceman1


I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 14:53:34


Post by: Alfndrate


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


Can 40k be just as serious as Warmachine without squabbling over rules? Because when I see 40k get to be srs bzns, it usually means there is a rule dispute happening. Now will the top competitor's play seriously and play to win and know the rules well enough to avoid most of those issues? Yes, now about if we open that up to a wider player base? Do we have more or less rules arguments and people getting into heated arguments of words printed on a page? In my experience, it's more with 40k. Are there rules arguments in Warmachine? Absolutely, but the rules are clear enough that generally it's never more than, "check the wording on x in the rulebook" (if you can't find it on the card).


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 22:02:24


Post by: NAVARRO


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I think he means that with GW plastics, there are loads of parts and interchangable kits that result in nearly endless possibilities with just the plastics and glue but with PP it's a bit harder.


I still struggle to see why extra bitz on their kits makes the experience better for the painter... as for the hardcore modeler both companies have different appeals but one does have a bits service that you can buy individual bits ( guess who?).

In short both companies offer a very good experience for the painter/modeler in you.
I could never say to any hobby orientated fella that if he likes the painting side of things he should go to GW rather than PP... even the paints are good quality in both companies.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 22:09:08


Post by: cincydooley


Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 22:11:57


Post by: RatBot


I prefer that than GW's "Here's a gakload of bits you have to pay for whether you want them or not!" Of course, if GW did barebones kits and sold the bits extra then they'd probably price the bits in such a way that it ends up being more expensive than it is now, so perhaps one should be careful what one wishes for. I know they used to do seperate bitz (and still do to a very limited extent), but I don't recall how they were priced.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 22:12:39


Post by: NAVARRO


 cincydooley wrote:
Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Try harder.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 22:28:51


Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish


 cincydooley wrote:
Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Hmm.. I see your point.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 22:49:29


Post by: cincydooley


 NAVARRO wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Try harder.


At what? It's a ridiculous point to make, especially when every GW kit comes with extra pieces.

Am I supposed to pretend PP is so benevolent because they "let" us buy bitz? Gimmeabreak.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/24 23:41:05


Post by: -Loki-


 Alfndrate wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


Can 40k be just as serious as Warmachine without squabbling over rules? Because when I see 40k get to be srs bzns, it usually means there is a rule dispute happening. Now will the top competitor's play seriously and play to win and know the rules well enough to avoid most of those issues? Yes, now about if we open that up to a wider player base? Do we have more or less rules arguments and people getting into heated arguments of words printed on a page? In my experience, it's more with 40k. Are there rules arguments in Warmachine? Absolutely, but the rules are clear enough that generally it's never more than, "check the wording on x in the rulebook" (if you can't find it on the card).


In my experience? Yes. My friends and I rarely have issues over rules. I have one friend that gets into arguments, but that's over him deliberately misinterperating rules to bend the game in his favour. Or I hopeit's deliberate, considering he's a qualified teacher now. Everyone else quite happily plays 40k with the released rules and no house ruling, no squabbling.

Do I think the rules could be written better? Absolutely. Do I think rules squabbles are generally from pedants with too much time on their hands to analyse them? Definitely.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 00:17:22


Post by: Evil_Toast


 cincydooley wrote:
So... If I'm a working adult and my money is more valuable to me then the logical conclusion is that I'd avoid 40k?

That doesn't seem to make any sense.



I don't think I need to point out (again) that as a big person, man dollies isn't the number 1 priority in my life. Car payments, rent, food, fuel, utilities, medical aid, pension, insurance and a savings of some sort for when you hit a razor blade in the candy floss of life take preference. So, I've started playing Dust:Warfare last year. Today I picked up a Axis transport($39.95) and Recon Grenadier squad($14.95). This is a whopping 20.6% of my total army(300AP standard size local). To equate it to 40K, 5 Chaos Marines($25.00) and a Rhino($37.25) is a massive 7% of a 1850pt army. For $7.80 less, I got a fully legal and fully armed infantry squad and a Transport that's bigger than a Rhino. That requires no assembly to play with, so I've got more time to spend on painting that sucker up between work, studies and family commitments.

Makes perfect sense to me.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 00:20:12


Post by: cincydooley


Yes. I have a full allies army myself. What's your point? Just because its cheaper doesn't mean it's more logical for me to buy it.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 00:30:31


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 cincydooley wrote:
Yes. I have a full allies army myself. What's your point? Just because its cheaper doesn't mean it's more logical for me to buy it.


He's basically trying to point out that a person who is a wargamer SHOULD be a relatively responsible adult and take care of their life needs before their gaming wants.


Obviously, we should buy into the game that gives us the most enjoyment. For Evil_Toast, apparently Dust gives him the enjoyment that GW doesnt give as much of, so for him it is more cost effective and logical to get into that game than a GW one.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 00:39:37


Post by: cincydooley


 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
Yes. I have a full allies army myself. What's your point? Just because its cheaper doesn't mean it's more logical for me to buy it.


He's basically trying to point out that a person who is a wargamer SHOULD be a relatively responsible adult and take care of their life needs before their gaming wants.


Well clearly. But after that, how does a logical conclusion that you shouldn't buy GW follow?

Obviously, we should buy into the game that gives us the most enjoyment. For Evil_Toast, apparently Dust gives him the enjoyment that GW doesnt give as much of, so for him it is more cost effective and logical to get into that game than a GW one.


Right, but to make the blanket statement that its illogical to buy GW is foolish.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 00:44:56


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 cincydooley wrote:


Obviously, we should buy into the game that gives us the most enjoyment. For Evil_Toast, apparently Dust gives him the enjoyment that GW doesnt give as much of, so for him it is more cost effective and logical to get into that game than a GW one.


Right, but to make the blanket statement that its illogical to buy GW is foolish.



If the argument was purely "which game gives the most bang for the buck" then yeah it would be an acceptable blanket statement, but I think that in a case of LGS's and with the variety of gaming options out there, I still think that THIS argument comes down to what you enjoy playing/painting/modelling the most, when compared to what is readily available in your area.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 01:01:09


Post by: Evil_Toast


Exactly. When Necrons came out, I was dying to buy and army of them (being my first army I played, then stupidly sold.). After looking at local costs , for example I would be paying $8.77 more than you for 10 Necron warriors at local prices, seeing as we can't order from those apparently parasitic online retailers anymore. I have 4 40k armies, and that's where it's going to stay. And now I have to pay $73.84 for a new style codex too.

Unless I missed the point of this thread, I can't seem to see the post that stated "Why you all need to use cincydooley as the yardstick to measure your TTWG expenditure and enjoyment against."
Probably because it's not here. For you, your obviously happy with GW. But for everyone here whose is not you, we have our own financial limits and circumstances. So bear that in mind next time you post something snarky and argumentative, like this:
 cincydooley wrote:


So if I "value my money" I should pick the one I like more. Wow. Mind blowing stuff there.

But if im a "serious and mature" gamer I shouldn't buy GW. Ahh. Got it.

And
 cincydooley wrote:
Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 01:51:06


Post by: Chongara


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


This statement interests me. Would you mind outlining what you think makes Warmachine healthy tournament/competitive game, and what 40k does the same or differently that also makes it a healthy tournament/competitive platform? The more specific you could be, particularly if you can provide concrete examples drawn from the mechanics of the respective game engines the better.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 01:56:25


Post by: cincydooley


Chongara wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


This statement interests me. Would you mind outlining what you think makes Warmachine healthy tournament/competitive game, and what 40k does the same or differently that also makes it a healthy tournament/competitive platform? The more specific you could be, particularly if you can provide concrete examples drawn from the mechanics of the respective game engines the better.


I'd simply quote the sum 2000 player that will be competing in 6 weeks at adepticon In various tournaments. Seems to work okay there and has for 10 years. I'm probably wrong though.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 02:20:26


Post by: malfred


 cincydooley wrote:
Chongara wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


This statement interests me. Would you mind outlining what you think makes Warmachine healthy tournament/competitive game, and what 40k does the same or differently that also makes it a healthy tournament/competitive platform? The more specific you could be, particularly if you can provide concrete examples drawn from the mechanics of the respective game engines the better.


I'd simply quote the sum 2000 player that will be competing in 6 weeks at adepticon In various tournaments. Seems to work okay there and has for 10 years. I'm probably wrong though.


It works because of a the independently developed many paged FAQ and
the independently run volunteers. Basically, it works because people want it
to work and not because the game itself makes it so.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 02:43:53


Post by: hotsauceman1


To quote Dr. Ian Malcolm.
Life will find a way.
Just because YOU think 40k cant be competitive, doesnt mean others do not.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 02:59:13


Post by: Amaya


martin74 wrote:I have noticed a trend at the local game store where I live. WHFB and 40K were te big guns three/four years ago. When you saw someone playing WM/H or only thing else you gave them that crazy look. Now, you still see games every night being played, but te range of game systems is rather large. WHFB, 40K, Wm, Hordes, Malifaux, and even Dystopian wars is common to see being played.

There are those purist out there tat will only play GW. They need to losen up.


Why exactly? What gives you the right to dictate to someone what they should or should not play? I will never play Warmahordes or whatever it is because I have zero interest in the setting or the fluff. I also don't care if you swear by it and refuse to ever play a GW game. Suggesting that someone "needs to loosen up" is insulting to their opinion. I think warjacks and many of the other models in WM/H are incredibly ugly and poorly designed. I would never want to play with them or paint them. Some people love them. Different strokes.

hotsauceman1 wrote:To quote Dr. Ian Malcolm.
Life will find a way.
Just because YOU think 40k cant be competitive, doesnt mean others do not.


That is a stupid handwavium quote.

cincydooley wrote:
Chongara wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


This statement interests me. Would you mind outlining what you think makes Warmachine healthy tournament/competitive game, and what 40k does the same or differently that also makes it a healthy tournament/competitive platform? The more specific you could be, particularly if you can provide concrete examples drawn from the mechanics of the respective game engines the better.


I'd simply quote the sum 2000 player that will be competing in 6 weeks at adepticon In various tournaments. Seems to work okay there and has for 10 years. I'm probably wrong though.


Both systems can be competitive. PP just supports the gameplay/tournament aspect more than GW. A good parallel would be LoL (or GW) and WoW. WoW can be competitive in PvP, but it still has major balance issues.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 03:00:07


Post by: Chongara


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To quote Dr. Ian Malcolm.
Life will find a way.
Just because YOU think 40k cant be competitive, doesnt mean others do not.


Statements like this are fair enough I suppose, but they don't convey much of anything substantive.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 03:08:22


Post by: Sean_OBrien


 cincydooley wrote:
Chongara wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I disagree, 40k can be just as serious as a game as Warmachine.


This statement interests me. Would you mind outlining what you think makes Warmachine healthy tournament/competitive game, and what 40k does the same or differently that also makes it a healthy tournament/competitive platform? The more specific you could be, particularly if you can provide concrete examples drawn from the mechanics of the respective game engines the better.


I'd simply quote the sum 2000 player that will be competing in 6 weeks at adepticon In various tournaments. Seems to work okay there and has for 10 years. I'm probably wrong though.


I would recheck that figure....I think the total attendance for Adepticon is around 2000 or so...unless of course they have increased attendance dramatically since the last one I went to. Of those, you only get a few hundred who actually play in the tournaments.

That said - you can compete in almost anything, however certain things are better suited for competition than others. GW had stated (can't remember if it was in one of their web videos/articles or through White Dwarf) that they are not writing their rules for tournaments...so, that sort of puts them off balance when it comes to tournament play.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 03:13:01


Post by: cincydooley


Warmachine/Hordes is absolutely better suited, and for a ton of reasons. If anyone is disputing that, it's a bit silly. That's not preventing tons of people from competing in lots of 40k tournaments all over the country, from Adepticon to Feast of Blades.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 12:29:32


Post by: Chongara


 cincydooley wrote:
Warmachine/Hordes is absolutely better suited, and for a ton of reasons. If anyone is disputing that, it's a bit silly. That's not preventing tons of people from competing in lots of 40k tournaments all over the country, from Adepticon to Feast of Blades.


Well yeah, of course it isn't stopping them from having tournaments. You can make competition out of almost anything but doesn't make whatever your competing with have any depth, or have anything to do with testing skill, or even have anything to do with the more general purpose of the activity in question.

I'd wager the popularity of 40k and size of the tournaments involved in it have far more to do with the strength of the 40k IP and GW being sort of the first ones to open the market than it does anything to do with 40k as a game.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 16:21:13


Post by: Chumbalaya


PP is the best. GW is epic fail xD

Am I cool yet?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 16:56:13


Post by: Chongara


 Chumbalaya wrote:
PP is the best. GW is epic fail xD

Am I cool yet?


No. Not really. I don't think anyone outside a few trolls are saying like that. GW certainly does have it's issues namely: Aggressive price escalation, poorly balanced & sloppily written rules, wonky release schedules and no community engagement. I also tend to think people see most of these as areas where other companies, PP included are stronger.

However it does have it's strengths: Attractive Miniatures, high-quality plastics, engaging IPs, dedicated fanbase. However these things alone don't really make for a healthy game. Honestly if GW re-vamped the game engine and was more even-handed with releases, I might want to buy back into 40k if my playgroup ever got over the bad feelings they developed for it.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 17:14:56


Post by: Polonius


I've played 40k for a decade, and still enjoy it. I've been getting into PP recently, and the games/hobbies are very different.

Neither does anything the other doesn't do at all. Meaning, you can have a fluffy, converted, Pp army, or play hardcore competitive 40k. But, in my experience the strengths of each system are pretty apparent.

Warmahordes games turn on tactics, combos, and cleverness far, far more than 40k. Small mistakes can lose games. the upside is that each model is capable of more actions, and a good player can do more to win a game than he can in 40k. (meaning, IMO, warmachine allows skill to be actively used, while 40k revolves much more on capitilizing errors.) Also, and maybe it's just because I'm new, I find myself really needing to think about what i'm going to do with every unit.

40k simply doesn't have that. Army match ups and list construction are far more crucial at all but the highest levels of play. OTOH, the depth of the world is so much higher. I can't just create a new Iron Kingdom, or even my own warcaster. I can create my own space marine chapter, give it rich fluff, and convert them extensively, all of which is dififcult to impossible with PP.

Going from 40k, where army balance is improving but still way off, and unit balance is often an afterthought, playing Warmachine has been a refreshing experience. Now, I haven't had enough Koolaid to think that warmahordes is perfectly balanced, but you can win with any faction.

So, no, it's not that I don't think 40k can be played competitively. I've done it, and it's a lot of fun. But playing a game designed to be competitive? Pretty awesome.

Oh, and one thing that I stopped whining about after playing PP? GW's prices. I've spent more on my Cygnar than I have for Orks!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 17:33:59


Post by: The Shadow


I usually play at my local GW (because of better people, if you must know) which obviously means complete GW Games. I'm quite pleased as far as that's concerned, as it used to be very difficult to get anything but a 40k game there and now you can play WHFB fairly easily and LoTR/The Hobbit is actually really popular.

There is a non-GW Gaming Club down the road though but even that is mainly 40k games (same goes for shelving space). There's quite a few Malifaux players but, to be honest, that's about it.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 18:50:33


Post by: NAVARRO


 cincydooley wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Try harder.


At what? It's a ridiculous point to make, especially when every GW kit comes with extra pieces.

Am I supposed to pretend PP is so benevolent because they "let" us buy bitz? Gimmeabreak.


Who did claim PP did anything but to provide a service option that can help people who like to convert? Benevolent? Are you stuck in the fairy tale land where things are either good or evul?

This has nothing to do with benevolence, this is just a service that you can use it or not. It's your choice... much like it's your choice to buy GW boxes packed with bits ( let me guess you think those are free? )

Both are different services/biz models that you either buy or leave on the shelf. Both are good options for modellers.

Try harder at expressing yourself like an adult.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 19:09:24


Post by: Polonius


Boxes stuffed with bits are better for starting hobbyists, as they provide a ton of options in one set. Look at something as old as the Empire Militia up to the current DA stuff shows a lot of options in a single kit.

A deep bitz catalogue is better for more advanced hobbyists, or ones that know exactly what they want. The elimination of bitz was one of the big "the GW I know is gone" moments for me.

Though, the fact that bitz ordering makes rehabbing second hand minis vastly easier is probably something to consider!


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 19:15:42


Post by: cincydooley


 NAVARRO wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:
Oh boy! I can buy extra bits!!! Goody gumdrops! How nice of them!!!!


Try harder.


At what? It's a ridiculous point to make, especially when every GW kit comes with extra pieces.

Am I supposed to pretend PP is so benevolent because they "let" us buy bitz? Gimmeabreak.


Who did claim PP did anything but to provide a service option that can help people who like to convert? Benevolent? Are you stuck in the fairy tale land where things are either good or evul?

This has nothing to do with benevolence, this is just a service that you can use it or not. It's your choice... much like it's your choice to buy GW boxes packed with bits ( let me guess you think those are free? )

Both are different services/biz models that you either buy or leave on the shelf. Both are good options for modellers.

Try harder at expressing yourself like an adult.


Yeah, I've had no difficulty "expressing [myself] like an adult."

In my opinion, that of a singular indivudual that plays both games, offering up "but Privateer has a bitz ordering service" as a better alternative to GW boxes coming with bitz is foolish.

I also believe, because of their abundance of multi-part plastic miniatures and extra bits that come with them (that so many seem to abhor), that GW kits are more "hobby" oriented than Privateer kits, in that they allow for coversions and creation of individual, unique models right out of the box. I substantiate this with the fact that many Privateer kits don't even have a full box of unique models (Trollkin Sluggers, I'm looking at you).

I don't entirely remember how we moved down this path (I think it may have been in regards to which is better for 'hobby') but it's a moot point.

We all have opinions, and it is mine that, because of the aforementioned reasons, GW kits are better for "hobby."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
 agustin wrote:
It makes loads of sense. Go with 40k if modeling and painting is more important to you than gaming,



Modelling and painting is more important to me... thats why I love to paint and collect the chunky metals from PP and use GW for the converting fix... Don't see why you assume PP is less hobby orientated just because its not packed with thousands of extra bitz... I mean the goal is to paint a mini and field it and PP metals do that as good if not better than GW. ( detail wise there is no comparison the PP metals with the GW plastics)


Ah ha. Found it.

In my opinion, converting and creating unique models is part of the "hobby." Again, like I said before, because of my perspective of what "the hobby" entails for me, I see the GW kits as more "hobby oriented."

I'd also argue that there are plenty of GW plastics that have the same level of detail or better as PP metals, but that's not worth the argument at this point.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I think he means that with GW plastics, there are loads of parts and interchangable kits that result in nearly endless possibilities with just the plastics and glue but with PP it's a bit harder.


I still struggle to see why extra bitz on their kits makes the experience better for the painter... as for the hardcore modeler both companies have different appeals but one does have a bits service that you can buy individual bits ( guess who?).

In short both companies offer a very good experience for the painter/modeler in you.
I could never say to any hobby orientated fella that if he likes the painting side of things he should go to GW rather than PP... even the paints are good quality in both companies.


Oh lovely, and here's the other piece. You inferred that for the "hardcore modeller" Privateer was better because they have a bitz ordering service.

Again, I simply disagree, and we can leave it at that.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 21:49:58


Post by: NAVARRO


Cincydooley, that sounded a more errr constructed post

Your starting point is different from mine I think. I mean your definition of what is the hobby seems to be reduced/based on your personal perspective and thats why based only on your preferences you discard one or the other company as the best for what you need... While what I posted was more orientated to the post at hand... I cannot say to anyone who likes the hobby they should go with x or Y because both companies offer a very solid hobby experience in all aspects.

I dont want to debate here the shortcomings of multipart kits and how a metal miniature not aimed at multipose can reach a much higher level of satisfaction for those who love to paint dynamic pieces.
Thats why if anyone approaches me asking which of the companies offers a better hobby experience I would reply both.
Both have differences and different strong services and to me thats good enough.

And no, comparing how both companies supply their extras is not foolish and NOPE I have not hinted one was better than the other... I just disagreed to a post that said one was not hobby orientated with a clear example.

Now my personal selfish opinion... I collect PP because I love metal and painting and I collect GW because I love multipart conversions and sculpting... And I collect tons of other minis... So there you have it from someone who takes the hobby to the extreme in every level...






Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 22:35:52


Post by: cincydooley


There we go. Middle ground :-).

I like a lot of my PP sculpts. I'm just still irritated about the black 13th and the Trollkin Sluggers. :-)


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/25 22:48:30


Post by: -Loki-


 Polonius wrote:
Boxes stuffed with bits are better for starting hobbyists, as they provide a ton of options in one set. Look at something as old as the Empire Militia up to the current DA stuff shows a lot of options in a single kit.


Empire Militia, like Skaven Night Runners, are bad examples. They were never intended to be used as Fantasy regiments, they were the human and Skaven warbands from the Mordheim starter. That's why there's so many options - they were meant to make a bunch of individually equipped models.

They're not a case of GW being nice giving you a bunch of extras in the regiment - they're a case of GW being cheap and reusing really old molds they had kicking around from Mordheim to use in Fantasy.


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/26 07:59:21


Post by: Surtur


 -Loki- wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Boxes stuffed with bits are better for starting hobbyists, as they provide a ton of options in one set. Look at something as old as the Empire Militia up to the current DA stuff shows a lot of options in a single kit.


Empire Militia, like Skaven Night Runners, are bad examples. They were never intended to be used as Fantasy regiments, they were the human and Skaven warbands from the Mordheim starter. That's why there's so many options - they were meant to make a bunch of individually equipped models.

They're not a case of GW being nice giving you a bunch of extras in the regiment - they're a case of GW being cheap and reusing really old molds they had kicking around from Mordheim to use in Fantasy.


I'd never heard of that, what other plastic kits were originally for mordhiem?


Warmahordes, Warhammer and Your Favorite LGS @ 2013/02/26 13:41:44


Post by: cincydooley


 Surtur wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Boxes stuffed with bits are better for starting hobbyists, as they provide a ton of options in one set. Look at something as old as the Empire Militia up to the current DA stuff shows a lot of options in a single kit.


Empire Militia, like Skaven Night Runners, are bad examples. They were never intended to be used as Fantasy regiments, they were the human and Skaven warbands from the Mordheim starter. That's why there's so many options - they were meant to make a bunch of individually equipped models.

They're not a case of GW being nice giving you a bunch of extras in the regiment - they're a case of GW being cheap and reusing really old molds they had kicking around from Mordheim to use in Fantasy.


I'd never heard of that, what other plastic kits were originally for mordhiem?


I believe those are the only two.

Coincidentally, I believe one of those "extras" sprues from the Empire Militia was also included in the witch hunters boxed set from mordheim (the one with the dog).