Anyone kept track of Prodos' misleading or incorrect use of information or u-turns? Prodos may be busy "fulfilling" but they seem to be well practiced at burning bridges.
Off topic... I'm wondering if the Terminator Genisys game is any good? I'm thinking Alien vs Predator vs Terminator potential. (Don't need AVP:THB to arrive to play it, I have horrorclix aliens, predators and some excellent predastore hunters. I have some gripping beast marines to if I wanted to chuck them in the mix)
Alternatively, has anybody home brewed any of these factions into Deadzone?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps... Nice to have a message board where any doubts or conserns don't get your message deleted or permabanned. Free speach etc etc.
PomWallaby wrote: Anyone kept track of Prodos' misleading or incorrect use of information or u-turns? Prodos may be busy "fulfilling" but they seem to be well practiced at burning bridges.
Off topic... I'm wondering if the Terminator Genisys game is any good? I'm thinking Alien vs Predator vs Terminator potential. (Don't need AVP:THB to arrive to play it, I have horrorclix aliens, predators and some excellent predastore hunters. I have some gripping beast marines to if I wanted to chuck them in the mix)
Alternatively, has anybody home brewed any of these factions into Deadzone?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps... Nice to have a message board where any doubts or conserns don't get your message deleted or permabanned. Free speach etc etc.
The miniatures aren't a patch on AvP*, but gamewise it's tremendous fun, really well designed.
Probably the 'surprise hit' of the year so far for me in fact.
* EDIT: that's probably a bit unfair, the terminators are perfectly adequate for what they are.
Hang on ? So the second wave figures they had finished and cast up almost a year ago weren't actually ok'd buy fox !! Remember all the pictures of boxs of them they kept showing! So now we have to waif while fox ok them ..what if they need to be changed ? Do prodos have the cash flow to ditch £1000s of worth of product and recast them ? .
Thanks Pacific, I get the distinct impression AVP rules will go straight in the bin until properly play tested and fixed. Terminator may be a good alternative to mess about with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @JoRugby, update was seen on Prodos' own forum. (I agree an email wouldn't have gone a miss.)
Joyboozer wrote: The sculpts for wave two mentioned were reported as being approved except for the packaging quite some time ago. How surprising they actually weren't.
In addition, all those boxes full of ... well, crap? I'd say, Prodos 1, truth still 0.
PomWallaby wrote: Anyone kept track of Prodos' misleading or incorrect use of information or u-turns? Prodos may be busy "fulfilling" but they seem to be well practiced at burning bridges.
Off topic... I'm wondering if the Terminator Genisys game is any good? I'm thinking Alien vs Predator vs Terminator potential. (Don't need AVP:THB to arrive to play it, I have horrorclix aliens, predators and some excellent predastore hunters. I have some gripping beast marines to if I wanted to chuck them in the mix)
Alternatively, has anybody home brewed any of these factions into Deadzone?
Ps... Nice to have a message board where any doubts or conserns don't get your message deleted or permabanned. Free speach etc etc.
That'd be one hell of a scoreboard. I mean, if you think boxes of cast stuff it started waaaaaay back. Bah, who needs the frakking fanbase? As long as nobody sues, they are on the win ... no, wait, that doesn't account for the internet age anymore. Dang forums and communicating people ... why can these runts (i.e. us backers) leave a company alone and just throw the money at them?
JoeRugby wrote: Where did the update come from I didn't get an email for this one?
Interesting that they reopened people's pledges and there's nothing in the update about it.
My pledge is stuck as awaiting in the manager so I'm guessing that it's still closed.
Bah, email, shemale, all the same. As long as the true hardcore fanboys get the info and just can't get out of their nerdgasms, that's good enough. The other runts (i.e. us backers) would just find more hairs to pick and god forbid, accuse them of lying anyways or, again.
Uhm, go check your PM. Mine's been closed for months and surprise, it was all open again, just in case I wanted to add some more money into a bottomless pit.
Hey, at least you guys will get something. I've been waiting for the completion of Assimilation Alien Host, a KS which was done *before* this one even launched, and still no word as to when we can actually expect anything like Swarm level or above to be finished. I just want someone to buy me out of my pledge so I can be done with it.
I backed Alien Assimulation Host as well. I don't think it's fair to compare it to AVP. Yes Troll Forged are slow, but if I remember correctly the money ran out ages ago. Unlike some projects which shut down, Ed has continued to sculpt and cast and pledges are slowly being fulfilled. I think I backed at "swarm" so should be due the pledge manager "soon". AVP however was always going to go to retail as plastic, the kickstarter was for a resin limited collectors edition. Troll forge have used their funds to set themselves up but are fulfilling backers first. On the other hand Prodos haven't yet produced the "retail" plastic edition and instead have decided to sell the collectors kickstarter edition at retail before sending it out to backers. A lot of backers of AVP I suspect would have been better waiting for retail. I understand that Fox may have a stranglehold over Prodos, perhaps even a gagging order, but Prodos come across not very sincere or apologetic. Besides, when Troll Forged run into difficulty they didn't falsely lockdown the kickstarter page to shut out the crowd with burning pitchforks. When it comes to kickstarter delays, Kingdom Death bucks the trend there. Sometimes somethings are worth the wait.
I backed at 'Real Aliens' level. I've no intention of, but if I add an additional copy of the game, my Pledge only increases by £30, plus I get addtional free items to choose. If I further increase the extra games to 2, that then adds on an additional £70.
Anyone else have this same calc? Not sure their pledge manager is correct.
Perhaps they manually check each closed pledge manager, cross-referencing the backer name to any forum posts to see if he or she has been naughty or nice..
BrookM wrote: Perhaps they manually check each closed pledge manager, cross-referencing the backer name to any forum posts to see if he or she has been naughty or nice..
haha - if that was the case, since I was kicked out of the KS, and then subsequently banned from the forum (now reinstated), there's no way on earth they'd have allowed me to pick up box number 50 at Expo.
BrookM wrote: Perhaps they manually check each closed pledge manager, cross-referencing the backer name to any forum posts to see if he or she has been naughty or nice..
I'm fethed then I've been pissing on their cornflakes for a few weeks now.
So I finally had a chance to check my pledge manager, and yep it was open! Why they opened it I'm not sure, but I'll be damned if they think I'm dropping any more money on this now! Between Avp, and the slew of other stuff I bought to support this game, I'll need to play for a long time to recoup any benefits!
Grumpae wrote: So I finally had a chance to check my pledge manager, and yep it was open! Why they opened it I'm not sure, but I'll be damned if they think I'm dropping any more money on this now! Between Avp, and the slew of other stuff I bought to support this game, I'll need to play for a long time to recoup any benefits!
I suspect that is one reason they did it without asking/notifying you. The other is likely to have the ready excuse of "how can we ship to you when your pledge manager isn't even finalized?!?".
[quote=I suspect that is one reason they did it without asking/notifying you. The other is likely to have the ready excuse of "how can we ship to you when your pledge manager isn't even finalized?!?".
I wouldn't put it past them.
Oh geeze we would have shipped your pledge, but you need to close the manager.
But I closed the manager months ago...
Yes but we did you the favour of opening it back up for you without you needing to ask us to.
But I had no intention of adding to it at this point.
Oh we see, hmmm back of the list for you! And just for good measure, we'll open you pledge manager again, so you can reconsider...
warboss wrote: I suspect that is one reason they did it without asking/notifying you. The other is likely to have the ready excuse of "how can we ship to you when your pledge manager isn't even finalized?!?".
I forget when or where it was posted but at one time there was a post where they stated they reopened all pledge managers to update final shipping information. Backers were supposed to re-verify everything, probably hoping for some last minute additions as well, then close it to show that everything was finalized. I initially ignored it because I thought I recently closed it, unlike some friends who had closed it ages ago. So I figured I would be fine. When I did check back it was still open so I closed it.
It's good to see that they have at least put things in place to get this deliver in North America. Hopefully this won't come back to bite Ninja Division by association or worse Prodos throwing them under the bus for errors and delays that are actually their own fault.
Well, we can say, Prodos hasn't run this project into the ground like Palladium Books did with their KS.
But then, this isn't a contest on who runs the worst KS-after-campaign.
I'd like to see the kickstarter page reopened. Remember when Prodos said this?
"It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped."
PomWallaby wrote: I'd like to see the kickstarter page reopened. Remember when Prodos said this? "It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped."
I'm not sure they can to be honest. Not that there'd be much point since they're (verrrry slowly) fulfilling the pledge rewards right now.
OK, so here's the deal ...
This morning at 8:45 the doorbell rang and shook me out of bed after approx 5 hours of sleep.
It was the UPS guy with a big black heavy package. Dozy is signed, put it aside and ignored it until I gulped down my first coffee - today won't be fun, but going back to sleep is next to useless.
Checked the address - for my wife, from Poland. Synaptic relais falling into place: Must be AvP ... who cares, need more coffee (Don't even approach me before cup #3).
Now I have that much. First I thought, wide and heavy box, but are those two copies? It was, I just expected the box to be thicker.
I haven't rummaged through the contents - you already know what there is and I'm gonna check, if everything is complete.
So, it took exactly one week from Poland to Germany - they share a border, but hey ...
As it looks, you have to write them an angry mail (unless you're not in the EU, since hell knows, when those distributors will start shipping) and make sure, your PM is locked and tight to get your goods. Sad thing, after all that wait, this shouldn't be necessary.
Now I don't want to paint the devil at the wall, but I shouldn't wonder, if the whole "close your PM" will be rince and repeat for wave two.
Just a little something, to put Prodos to shame (as if such a thing was even remotely possible).
I've ordered me a copy of Warlords Terminator Genesys. Arrived rather quick, but the box got pretty beat up during transit. Mailed them, provided them with a picture, now I'll get a new box (just the box) that I have to fold up. Quick response times and I must admit, I'm a happy customer. Now for playing that bugger itself ...
Adding to that point my copy of avp arrived this morning (not a backer just bought online), upon opening it seems I have 10 stalker and 5 infant aliens. God knows who checks the components.
Packaging errors can happen, anywhere. Not just with the small companies. I don't say that, because I now at least have my basegame, it's fact.
I'll even go that far to check through all, count every token and card, if it's all accounted for.
If I where you, I'd contact them, maybe send them a pic of the bags. I'd see one of three scearios: They ignore you - I'd doubt that. They want you to return the whole game or at least the two bags and send out replacement. They send you the missing minis and tell you, to keep the difference.
obviously we can't trust any thing prodos say or write to know if this is true...
But it does seem odd that a company that set up the AVP KS listed as a UK company is searching for a UK distributer.
Panic...
It's not that odd. Prodos started out in the UK but moved their casting to Poland (the printers were already in Poland IIRC) a while back and their packing and shipping followed.. because warehouses are apparently a fair bit cheaper over there. Now all orders from Prodos come direct from Poland, with Rob and co still at the "head office" in the UK.
Moses Bad wrote: Packaging errors can happen, anywhere. Not just with the small companies.
I don't say that, because I now at least have my basegame, it's fact.
I'll even go that far to check through all, count every token and card, if it's all accounted for.
If I where you, I'd contact them, maybe send them a pic of the bags.
I'd see one of three scearios:
They ignore you - I'd doubt that.
They want you to return the whole game or at least the two bags and send out replacement.
They send you the missing minis and tell you, to keep the difference.
Had sent an email this afternoon so will wait and see.
Thanks for the heads up regarding closing the pledge manager. That would have sat there for ages.
I had to hunt for the password just to get into it. It seems weird to think I could add to the pledge (not that I remember what's in any of the levels) after all this time. I got it from the shop after the KS, so it seems very odd to be able to tweak it.
Now this is just a really minor tid bit and I really don't give a damn, if or if not ... But since this IS the exclusive KS version of the game that's being dished out ... wasn't there a promise for all backer names to be present somwhere on it? As I said, doesn't matter at all for me, but I can't recall they took a step back from that.
Moses Bad wrote: Now this is just a really minor tid bit and I really don't give a damn, if or if not ... But since this IS the exclusive KS version of the game that's being dished out ... wasn't there a promise for all backer names to be present somwhere on it? As I said, doesn't matter at all for me, but I can't recall they took a step back from that.
Yeah, but only for true backers, who believe in Prodos.
Moses Bad wrote: Now this is just a really minor tid bit and I really don't give a damn, if or if not ... But since this IS the exclusive KS version of the game that's being dished out ... wasn't there a promise for all backer names to be present somwhere on it? As I said, doesn't matter at all for me, but I can't recall they took a step back from that.
From the Kickstarter page ....
---------------- "ᗩɴʏᴛɪᴍᴇ" ---------------- Digital AvP Wargaming Rules and Thanks in the Exclusive Edition Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game Rulebook
So it's "Thanks" whatever that means - could be a list of names or just a small generic sentence in the credits thanking all who supported the KS.
and it's in the miniatures game rulebook - ie the hardback wargaming rulebook due in Wave 2 (or will it be 3). One interesting point to add though - that rulebook is Exclusive meaning it'll be different for the KS backers than it is when it goes to retail. (yeah, I don't believe that'll happen either)
TL: DR - no UK partner doing it themselves will take until another 3 weeks to finish. Australia is random when ever they come across one. 600 units shipped to date (well actually they don't know and that's a guess) but that seems to include stock sent to SPM so they aren't shipped to backers Prodos just got them off their hands. Stop saying we are going out of business we are fine (but cutting it close to the wire) no refunds the money is all used up.
So either no UK distributor would touch them or wanted to much money to do it.
In fairness there's a lot of information in this update even if details are still a bit vague
This is Rumour Control, Here are the Facts...
1. Do we have an estimated date when Wave 1 will be completed?
Yep, end of August. We hope sooner than that, of course. By shipping stock to Ninja Division in one bulk, we've managed to reduce the number of parcels to be shipped quite significantly!
2. UK partner?
We still have to confirm this, but it is looking like we will not. This will not necessarily speed things up. It will take us a week to manufacture all the stock, then 4-5 days to get it to the warehouse, then 4-5 days for them to ship. We would think that in 3 weeks time (working days) we could achieve the same ourselves. The UK and EIRE was our largest zone for Backers at roughly 40% of the Kickstarter being the UK and EIRE alone.
3. How many backers have been shipped?
We do not know exact figures, but including the shipment to America, roughly 600.
4. When do the second batch of Wave 2 items go to Fox for approval?
This should occur on Monday or Tuesday of the coming week.
5. What steps have been made to increase output?
We are still sourcing a printer that can print in quality and in high volume. We are also looking at additional assembly companies to work with actually putting the game together and shrinkwrapping it.
We have increased manufacturing capacity by up to 40% this week. A huge step was made last night, with some equipment that arrived. 2 of our directors actually worked from 2PM until 10AM this morning installing equipment and testing the production line. This is good news for AvP, for Warzone and for all of our clients. We are running with the intention of creating at least 150 copies of AvP a day, with possibly more.
6. Are we shipping to Australia?
Yes, there are 149 backers in Australia. We are shipping to them whenever they come up in our stack of orders.
7. Are we leaving (x) until last so that we can ship Wave 1 and Wave 2 together to save money?
No. At least, not intentionally. Sure, we are a business and we would like to save money; but that is not our key driver. We made a statement a few weeks ago, saying that if we could ship Wave 1 and Wave 2 together, we would. That still applies, but we are not holding back the shipment, or purposely delaying it to do that. The fundamental point there is that we need to ship the Kickstarter Wave 1 to make sales of the Boxed Set.
8. Are we going out of business, hence the slow production rate?
Not at all. We have invested in too many staff and too much equipment recently for that to be the case. Sure, we are cutting it fine, but only so that we can get the Kickstarter shipped out as fast as possible. Please understand that the stage we are at is usually referred to as the 'stocking up' period. Most companies would do this behind closed doors, build up a huge stock-holding and then ship it all out at once. That is the case, I am sure, for any of the other licensed games that have been released recently. We are aware that we made a mistake trying to ship it all piecemeal and we are now trying to rectify that with the decision to ship the USA products with Ninja Division and to sign them up as our North American publisher.
Hind-sight is 20:20, as they say.
If you do spot somewhere that this kind of rumour is being spread, we would be very interested in where the source is. Please advise us to where you heard this. We are keen to deal with the source of that particular rumour.
9. Why didn't you answer my question?
Apologies, that's not intentional, we must have missed it. Please can you list it below and we will do our best to answer as soon as we can. Please also be aware that some questions are more appropriate for private email. If you have a customer complaint/query, please email sales@prodosgames.com, where he will forward you to the right place.
10. Why will you not give refunds?
Simply put, the money pledged on Kickstarter is used by us as an investment. We have enough capital to ship your copies and continue the production of the game. We have spoken to Kickstarter and our right to refuse a refund is equal to the right to request one. The fact we have begun shipping and that we are sharing these updates is enough to prove we have every intention to provide every backer with the products we promised (with reasonable, aesthetic changes).
11. The Kickstarter is still down, will it ever go back up?
We're aware of that and yes, we hope for the Kickstarter to go back up eventually. We would imagine that, at the earliest, this will be when the project is completed and all items are approved. We are in discussion with Fox regarding it, as it would open the doors again and get rid of the nasty suggestion of 'IP Dispute' that is factually incorrect.
12. Will Prodos Games be holding another open day soon?
Yes, we are intending to run an Open Day in Leamington Spa soon. We will be communicating with Crusaders about their assistance with this and would invite all fans of Prodos Games to attend. This may or may not be in our offices. We will see!
Gen Con is next week, don’t forget we will be in booth 1943 with our US partner Ninja Division. We will be handing out AvP boxes to North American backers that come to the booth. Please bring a printout copy of your pledge manager with you to speed up the process.
Shipping to all non-North and South American backers continues from our Poland facility.
We are awaiting word back from Fox on the physical approval of the Wave 2 packaged products.
Thanks again all and please accept my apologies for the delay in getting this communication to you.
Cheers,
Prodos Games LTD
Just checked there are 2094 backers but yeah 600 so far isn't a great showing that's only 29% and from the wording it looks like some didn't ship to backers just to other distribution.
If there are 840ish UK and Ireland backers they won't be done in 3 weeks at the current rate they haven't even shipped that many in 4 weeks or so.
The 'we are ramping up production' part makes me wonder about the pst 'Look! We have ALL the figures ready to go!' updates.
WTF? Did they not think they would need to have production at a certain rate ready to go once approvals were in? And did they not think to set that up over the past year so it was just a matter of turing on the capability?
Long term they are gonna have big problems. IF this game becomes slightly popular in retail channels they do not seem like they are close to being able to support keeping the distro chain fed. That is going to turn potential stockists away from the game (why set aside shelf/display space for something you cannot consistently have in stock?)
Any doubt that the backers were/are screwed has left me. Once this project delievers I'd be happy to see the licence go elsewhere. Bridges are burnt.
As for company health, there are plenty of ways of "rumour control". Eg. https://www.duedil.com/company/08373380/prodos-games-ltd I use similar records in work to run simple background checks on clients to assess if they're ever likely to pay.
To have to announce that the company is fine is alarming considering that many announcements have been either misdirection or mistaken. Also, selling the kickstarter edition at retail at kickstarter prices or cheaper stinks of a firesale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ... Add that to the undertones of "kickstarter is not a store", we owe backers nothing but webstore preorders are different and the whole experience is incredibly frustrating.
Just looked at those figures and they are in no way doing fine net assets of £6,200 and based on that Liquidity ratio of 0.2 anything less than 1 means you can't pay your debts they aren't even close. Obligations to backers aren't counted as trade debts either. That's not rumours of trouble that's cold hard facts.
DaveC wrote: Just looked at those figures and they are in no way doing fine net assets of £6,200 and based on that Liquidity ratio of 0.2 anything less than 1 means you can't pay your debts they aren't even close. Obligations to backers aren't counted as trade debts either. That's not rumours of trouble that's cold hard facts.
Those figures are derived from returns filed in January 2014. They're pretty worthless as any meaningful measure of the company now.
Well, the KS was funded november 29th 2013 so they (should have) had the KS cash right thereabouts, and they only have to pay for the metric fethtonne of printed materials and shipping right about now. It's wouldn't be the first (board game) KS where cash ran out before printed materials and shipping hit home.
OTOH I *really* can't imagine that those duedil.com figures include the 350K or so GBP they should have gotten from the KS after fees; if nothing else the total assets (remember: before liabilities) could hardly be only the 80Kish GBP mentioned.
So honestly I think this is a 2013 report which does not yet incorporate the KS earnings, which apparently were 'creatively' lifted to 2014. Given how/when they were realised this seems like dubious accounting to say the least, but that's just a fiscal matter.
Moses Bad wrote: I wonder ... if you go to the PM and throw everything out, will there be a refund?
No, not really, but it sure works the other way around.
I was thinking that when I went in. What would have happened had I just removed my pledge level? Or replaced it with a lower one (I suppose even to the $1/£1 in there.)?After all, I wasn't a KS backer. Would I get my pennies back?
I was actually more interested what would happen to my pledge if I removed it, and went the other way. It looked like it would have allowed anything. After a bit of comparison, I just added a second level beside the first to get freebies.
I think those were ones I wanted the first time, but the KS page went down round about that time. *That* was when I had the thought I wouldn't get anything.
DaveC wrote: Just checked there are 2094 backers but yeah 600 so far isn't a great showing that's only 29% and from the wording it looks like some didn't ship to backers just to other distribution.
If there are 840ish UK and Ireland backers they won't be done in 3 weeks at the current rate they haven't even shipped that many in 4 weeks or so.
Bit more than 2,094 backers, since I'm in the 2,700 region lol.
Kickstarter doesn't reallocate backer numbers when someone drops out they just keep allocating new backer numbers so its very common to have a backer number higher than the actual number of backers at the end of a project.
Pacific wrote: Well it's fair enough, you can just dump the minis in the bin when they arrive.
If by 'bin' you mean 'ebay', I fully intend to. feth Prodos and anything they touch.
Fenriswulf wrote:I'm interested in seeing how some of these miniatures turn out, so I might hang around here to see if peeps have some of the resin ones to sell off
CptJake.. meet Fenriswulf!
If nothing else the miniatures are absolutely stunning.
In all honest, they are the best you could have hoped for from these franchises. Only thing lacking is the Machiko miniature from the Dark Horse comics!
The guys at my local club have copies of this game and seem fond of it. They sculpts look really nice and I have seen the guys playing it several times and they seem to have had fun. At first they figured the pred was overpowered but that view seems to have changed after they started playing three player games.
I dont like the fact that people here seem to have no got their kickstarter copies yet I can walk into my FLGS and pick a copy of the shelf.
Pacific wrote: Well it's fair enough, you can just dump the minis in the bin when they arrive.
If by 'bin' you mean 'ebay', I fully intend to. feth Prodos and anything they touch.
Man, I'm sorry to hear you say that. I've followed your comments here and on BGG, and as a rule; agree with your thoughts. I disagree here though. I have no love left for Prodos, they have a poor business model at best, but the Aliens, and Predators franchises have always been at the top of my list. Regardless of how I feel about the creator of the game, I still want the game. Had I not backed it on KS I would most likely not have bought it retail. So, even though this is the most fethed up ks I have ever experienced (yes I know there's worse examples out there) my desire to have some AVP action on my table top once a week or so out weighs the bs. I can't help but think, that after all the pain, to sell off the pledge now, is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I realize that you might not feel the same way as I do about the franchise, but hope that you at least get a chance to see it in front of you, before you arbitrarily sell it off.
Pacific wrote: Well it's fair enough, you can just dump the minis in the bin when they arrive.
If by 'bin' you mean 'ebay', I fully intend to. feth Prodos and anything they touch.
Man, I'm sorry to hear you say that. I've followed your comments here and on BGG, and as a rule; agree with your thoughts. I disagree here though. I have no love left for Prodos, they have a poor business model at best, but the Aliens, and Predators franchises have always been at the top of my list. Regardless of how I feel about the creator of the game, I still want the game. Had I not backed it on KS I would most likely not have bought it retail. So, even though this is the most fethed up ks I have ever experienced (yes I know there's worse examples out there) my desire to have some AVP action on my table top once a week or so out weighs the bs. I can't help but think, that after all the pain, to sell off the pledge now, is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. I realize that you might not feel the same way as I do about the franchise, but hope that you at least get a chance to see it in front of you, before you arbitrarily sell it off.
Cheers!
I understand what you are saying, and I LOVE Aliens and Predators (heck, I have a slew of 'cloaked' preds ready to go!:
And I tried to give my 'Nids a bit of a 'Aliens' look:
And I have more than enough EM4/Copplestone 'Marines' painted up to play a game. And modern SWAT, cops and civilians for those types of scenarios.
What I was hoping for out of this was a GOOD boardgame and some better figures. I've gone through the rule PDF and frankly am not all that impressed. The fact the printed copy is different from the PDF (and the PDF is the 'updated version' which already has errors identified) does not go over well with me. feth, how long have they had to get it right and they couldn't even get the correct file to the printer (or ensure the printer used the correct version before printiong them off)? As is, I don't see Prodos being successful enough at getting the retail version out there and accepted by the board game crowd (the multi part plastics will hurt them bad, as will the complex rules) so I don't see this game taking off. A few Mega Fans of the franchise will LOVE the figures and maybe will use the 'wargame' rules if they ever get released. And I'm genuinely happy for the folks who do enjoy the boardgame and the wargame version. And the figures DO look nice. The folks who really want these figures deserve to have them.
But I have figures I can use. And rule sets I like to use them with. Heck, I even have my Space Hulk tiles to use (which look a LOT better than the cap Prodos is delivering.)
And I have personal extenuating circumstances that help drive my decision (kind of the icing on the cake). I recently moved to a much smaller house and about 98% of my gaming stuff is still packed in boxes and stored in a basement area. Adding a ton of stuff from this KS that I'm not going to use for this game is silly to me at this point. I'm not gonna sell my already painted figures (which I initially was intending to do to make room for the new, I DID sell off my AvP HorrorClix collection in anticipation of these figures). So for me, rather than support Prodos any more, even by showing off their figures or playing their game, I would rather just unburden myself from it and get it to someone who will use it/enjoy it.
Maybe that is cutting off my nose to spite my face. But over the last year I've offered the pledge to folks allegedly looking for a pledge (I always get 'Well, I can't afford the full pledge you have') and looked to get a refund (and that didn't happen). So now, it will get offered here on Dakka, on LAF, and if it does not go fast enough, on Ebay. My only real decision is should I sell off the baord game and then sell off 'wave 2' (and 3 and 4 or how ever many there ends up being) or hold on to it as it comes and try to dump it as one lot.
So yeah, feth Prodos. I don't 'need' this stuff and it won't cause me any pain to get it to someone who feels they do need it.
CptJake wrote: I've gone through the rule PDF and frankly am not all that impressed. The fact the printed copy is different from the PDF (and the PDF is the 'updated version' which already has errors identified) does not go over well with me. feth, how long have they had to get it right and they couldn't even get the correct file to the printer (or ensure the printer used the correct version before printiong them off)? As is, I don't see Prodos being successful enough at getting the retail version out there and accepted by the board game crowd (the multi part plastics will hurt them bad, as will the complex rules) so I don't see this game taking off. A few Mega Fans of the franchise will LOVE the figures and maybe will use the 'wargame' rules if they ever get released. And I'm genuinely happy for the folks who do enjoy the boardgame and the wargame version. And the figures DO look nice. The folks who really want these figures deserve to have them.
for what it's worth (which I know in your case is not a lot), my understanding (and I'm one of those first 50), is that with the exception of the first 50 that got delivered at UK Expo, all subsequent boxes have gone out with the newer rulebook. Granted, that's chock full of grammar and spelling errors as well, but at least the majority of backers will get the current rulebook. The 50 will then be shipped the rulebook again with wave 2. Personally I'm hoping that works in my favour because Prodos will have fixed many of the errors by then, but the reality is that they don't seem to care much about that, and their forum is so chock full of fanbois who jump on any criticism with calls for troll hangings (thus proving that they haven't the faintest idea what trolling actually is), that I don't think Prodos is listening to anybody calling to have the rulebook updated. It's a shame, and I agree, a poor rulebook, combined with overly complicated rules (for a boardgame) is going to potentially kill this game at retail. Add in 12+ part plastics, and that's it gone for sure. They may have changed their minds however on the minis - apparently even the resins were at one time 7+ parts, and they changed them at the last minute (probably causing some of the extensive delays in the process) to be 2-3 part. Maybe that's one of the reasons the plastics are also so hugely delayed - maybe they've gone away to redesign those as well. Or maybe one of the reasons they've just massively ramped up production ability of their pro-cast resins is because they'll scrap plastic altogether and stick with 2-3 part resin. I hope so, because I believe that's their only chance of a successful retail product.
I get why you don't want to offer Prodos your patronage any more. I still feel the same way about the CMoN/SmV combo that made such a mess of SW, but I would say this - the figures that Prodos have produced are amongst the best I've ever seen, and in that respect they've done the franchise proud. Just a shame they are such a poor company at almost every other aspect.
I'm not a McVey fan either. But at least his level of dishonesty never approached what we still get from Prodos. His issue was more competency (or lack there of) when it came to getting a game published. And in his favor in my particular case, he did eventually make good on a couple promises he made at his expense (I bought one of the painted sets on KS and there was an issue with the Barker weapon options).
Yeah Cap'n, I get your points. Your cloaked preds and modded 'nids are awesome! The space restriction is what it is right? To see sour grapes on your limited shelf space would just be a slap in the face. It's just a shame to me that this worked out in such a way that this gaming community has lost a great contributor! Cheers!
I haven't even assembled the minis yet - or broke out the cardboard. Maybe next weekend, last weekend I assembled the Terminator Genesys minis, which was a little annoying at some times, but hey, as long as I don't have to break out pliers to bend parts to fit how they should be, like I was forced to do with my WH40K Warlord a few years back ...
Mh, do I support Prodos? No. Will I buy more of their take on AvP? Depends. I think I'll have a lot more fun converting other companies' minis for the game - like those warrior nuns Raging Heroes put out. In the novels there was a cult and I have no problem expanding the universe as I see fit for a potential fourth party (or more) that try to fight Xenos and Preds for whatever reason (or protect them). All I need are those blank cards that where promised ... but, seeing how Prodos upholds promisses, I guess I have to break out the scanner and do it myself.
Theirs somebody on the facebook page asking members to fill in a survey on how well the kickstarter was run im guessing only the good comments will get through
dekinrie wrote: Theirs somebody on the facebook page asking members to fill in a survey on how well the kickstarter was run im guessing only the good comments will get through
Unbelievable! Talk about putting a kick me sign on your own back! Words escape me!
dekinrie wrote: Theirs somebody on the facebook page asking members to fill in a survey on how well the kickstarter was run im guessing only the good comments will get through
there is? where?? I'm on both their product pages (boardgame and wargame) and their company page, and I don't see any survey.
I'd love to see the results. But then again, you can bet if it looked anything negative, the fanboys would do a praise over and over again just to make it look good.
roughly how big is the box (dimension/weight)? my gf is going to be at gencon, so i may have her pick up my pledge for me, except that I pledged for 2 copies, so I dont want to burden her with 50 lbs of crap.
I can't confirm that, but it sure is heavy, and the box is also big - 530x320x60.
When I picked mine up at Expo, I was lucky enough to have somewhere I could stash it for the day. I sure wouldn't have wanted to lug it around, and two of them? Yeah good luck chaos0xomega, you're not going to be popular.
One is tiresome to carry around a full day, let alone two of them.
IF possible, let her get there, reserve them (maybe check contents? But who want's to go through all that during a con?), collect short before closing.
Or take them to a hotel or whatever, car trunk.
Well, shes staying at the convention center, so it would just be a matter of taking the 10 minutes to carry them to her room. The bigger concern is whether she can fit them in the van that she took with 11 other people.
Another thought that hit me. That whole reopening the PMBS would have made sense, if a) they actually had something new to show, like the terrain. or b) really were short to ship out the extras. Everything else is just, well, stalling tactics.
Alex C wrote: Seriously though, what's the quality like on the cards and tiles?
The cards feel pretty standard in my opinion. The tiles are ... well, I think Decent's are thicker and they sure aren't as thick as Space Hulk but I guess they'll do. Maybe I'll treat them with a layer of glue along the edges to seal tem, but that's rather personal preference.
Still no sign of mine, although I don't know how much of that is due to my pledge manager having seemingly re-opened itself, and whether the problems in Calais are stopping stuff getting in to the country.
Friend of mine that works in a company that exports is having an absolute nightmare getting stuff out of the country, I guess it must be the same for things coming in also.
As of 11th July "out of the 700 UK backers 300 have already been shipped,"The two backers I know personally are not part of the 300.
Perhaps I've missed news from some happy backers but I only remember hearing from the 50 who picked up at the Expo. I would have hoped by now more of those 300/250 packages would have arrived.
My concern, if valid, is that a later production run may use poorer quality / worn molds than those at used to produce the retail copies now collecting dust at the FLGS.
PomWallaby wrote: As of 11th July "out of the 700 UK backers 300 have already been shipped,"The two backers I know personally are not part of the 300.
Perhaps I've missed news from some happy backers but I only remember hearing from the 50 who picked up at the Expo. I would have hoped by now more of those 300/250 packages would have arrived.
My concern, if valid, is that a later production run may use poorer quality / worn molds than those at used to produce the retail copies now collecting dust at the FLGS.
The 700 was a lie according to their last updat which said 600 in total has been sent including the yank stock. If I remember correctly.
Whatever the number I just checked Prodos' web store and they have 207 boxes available. There is some twisted logic somewhere if it is the backers who need to wait on production. IMO since the retail "contractural obligations" should have been achieved the remaining stock should be sent out and replenished. As I mentioned earlier, there are already loads of boxes available at retail for those who want it (some priced cheaper than directly from Prodos). Sounds like a fiasco.
Kinda frustrating that I really want to be having fun with this game and there are backers who actually got their stuff and have done sweet feth all with it
Re Stocks etc arriving this week include :
............... AVP boxed game re-stocks should also be arriving today..........., great in store prices again on these lines smile emoticon
so not only have they had retail stock, already, they're getting another lot too
I do wish Prodos [I am of course assuming this is direct from Prodos as I don't think there are any UK distributors as such?] would have finishes shipping to the KS backers before throwing this out into the wild in such numbers (especially since they seem so slow in boxing the stuff up)
CptJake wrote: Lot easier to send a pallet to a distributor than the single copies which make up the pallet load to backers.
AND you get to claim 'We sent out a whole pallet load today!'
not that they're actually made that claim yet. They are very vague on how many they've shipped.
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Alex C wrote: Kinda frustrating that I really want to be having fun with this game and there are backers who actually got their stuff and have done sweet feth all with it
I think that every time I walk past a parked Ferrari.
Seriously - I grabbed mine at Expo because I was there, and why the bloody hell shouldn't I?
real life is currently getting in the way.
in other news, given how few Prodos have shipped, I'm very glad I took the opportunity.
Alex C wrote: Kinda frustrating that I really want to be having fun with this game and there are backers who actually got their stuff and have done sweet feth all with it
I think that every time I walk past a parked Ferrari.
Seriously - I grabbed mine at Expo because I was there, and why the bloody hell shouldn't I?
real life is currently getting in the way.
in other news, given how few Prodos have shipped, I'm very glad I took the opportunity.
Alex C wrote: Kinda frustrating that I really want to be having fun with this game and there are backers who actually got their stuff and have done sweet feth all with it
I think that every time I walk past a parked Ferrari.
Seriously - I grabbed mine at Expo because I was there, and why the bloody hell shouldn't I?
real life is currently getting in the way.
in other news, given how few Prodos have shipped, I'm very glad I took the opportunity.
I was mostly kidding around
Mostly...
haha - so am I - I've built most of the models and started adding pins. I'm desperately trying to finish painting a heroquest set to take on holiday, and then it's on to avp. acrylic bases are on their way.
and of course the 50 they gave out at Expo are also in that 600.
Realistically the number of parcels that have left Prodos Towers with actual postage stamps on them is awfully low.
The real problem I think is production. We know they've discarded the 7+ part models for 2/3 part ones in the boxset, likely because Fox told them it was too complicated for construction as a boardgame (and since it's supposed to be a general boardgame aimed at non-hobbyist gamers, rightly so). I'd hazard a guess that that decision is one of the reasons approval took so long - they had to get those figures redesigned, re moulded, and then reapproved, and then they had the problem of needing to make all the figures - that's around 115000 models, with no time to do it. They've just (apparently) installed new machines to vastly speed up production, and coincidentally announced their new spincast method of figure production (which uses a sprue of AvP marines in the publicity shot), so the holdup all along has been them - their failure to produce the low part count figures that Fox expected for a boardgame, and now their failure to produce the replacements quickly.
So either I'm clumsy, which I doubt, or margins may vary. I've started assembling the marines (and they'll be all I'm doing today). But fiddeling those tiny arms in ... seriously, they made the smartgun arms one piece,why not the rest? At least those two guys just handling pulse rifles. There are little tabs on the arms, but I had to shave them all, so they would fit into their respective slots. I really reccomend dryfitting before glueing. And another thing is, why model soles? And no fan of that runnning pose.
After the first minis I must simply ask, why no balljoints?
Next, as glue set, I went through the cards. Mh, twice the greek alphabet in mission cards, helluva lot tactic cards for the marines but none for the Preds and sure no stat cards. Checked the other game, there it's present. So, mailing Prodos, hoping they get back to me soon. Easily explained, they packed two card packs labeled 2 (little holes in the box) and none labeled 3. Can happen, not mad about it, let's see how this will be handled.
PomWallaby wrote: As of 11th July "out of the 700 UK backers 300 have already been shipped,"The two backers I know personally are not part of the 300.
Perhaps I've missed news from some happy backers but I only remember hearing from the 50 who picked up at the Expo. I would have hoped by now more of those 300/250 packages would have arrived.
My concern, if valid, is that a later production run may use poorer quality / worn molds than those at used to produce the retail copies now collecting dust at the FLGS.
The 700 was a lie according to their last updat which said 600 in total has been sent including the yank stock. If I remember correctly.
Still not got mine or heard anything
Moses you done anything with your set yet?
What could also potentially be an issue is that, even if they have sent out hundreds to the UK, those could have been sat queuing in a truck at Calais for the past week.
Yes, I am serious. I went to prodos, paid via paypal, and 5 days later, viola! Pretty stoked! Bought the lv426 "bug hunt" terrain from fantasy arc too and the apc from khuran (?)...
Well being a backer of the KS mails like these makes me sad and a bit angry at Prodos, I got nothing so far while retail and simple mail order gets their stuff...
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Moses Bad wrote: So either I'm clumsy, which I doubt, or margins may vary.
I've started assembling the marines (and they'll be all I'm doing today).
But fiddeling those tiny arms in ... seriously, they made the smartgun arms one piece,why not the rest? At least those two guys just handling pulse rifles.
There are little tabs on the arms, but I had to shave them all, so they would fit into their respective slots. I really reccomend dryfitting before glueing.
And another thing is, why model soles?
And no fan of that runnning pose.
...
I know the feeling from their Warzone minis. While most are great minis the assembly can be a REAL pain! (deep down where you can't really scratch...)
AAN wrote: Well being a backer of the KS mails like these makes me sad and a bit angry at Prodos, I got nothing so far while retail and simple mail order gets their stuff...
I know the feeling from their Warzone minis. While most are great minis the assembly can be a REAL pain! (deep down where you can't really scratch...)
Yeah, that mushy feeling deep down telling you, to frakk yourself. Like I said, it's sad you have to write an angry mail, to get your stuff (or to move up on their list - 'course, if every backer does that, Prodos woul return to what they are doing now. Handling their first line customers is just ... well, you know yourself how you feel about it.
I'm doing TTs for ... I think I started at 16 with Battletech, so around 23 years by now. If you know BT minis, you know, they can be fiddely at times but never like this. If this is what Prodos expects the casual gamer to do (not us geeks, we know how to do this stuff), they really have not the slightest about customer base. Not that their handling of backers proves anything different. But, and I am willing to give them that, other than another popular franchise KS *cough Palladium Books cough*, they reduced part numbers dramatically and evaded moldlines.
I just wonder, haven't read the rules and for those asking, Version 1.1 included, what are those two dials for? The holes in the middle imply, they are supposed to be assembled together, but no connector piece. Flipping through the pages, I've seen nothing of them, so I assume, they are for the wargame.
I'm not sure if it was implied or directly stated, but I was under the impression Ninja Division took some of their stock to GENCON and would ship out the rest during August.
Moses Bad wrote:
I just wonder, haven't read the rules and for those asking, Version 1.1 included, what are those two dials for? The holes in the middle imply, they are supposed to be assembled together, but no connector piece. Flipping through the pages, I've seen nothing of them, so I assume, they are for the wargame.
they are blast/acid spit templates for the wargame. Odd that they included them in the boardgame box - I guess they had space on the cardstock and thought "why not" - ultimately it saves you ordering plastic ones from them or (probably) doing cut-out/photocopy and stick from the wargame rulebook, so I get it, but it does seem to confuse the two products for no good reason. An added concern is that I've seen one gamer on facebook state that he's glad he has multiple copies of the boardgame because he found there aren't quite enough tokens in a single box - in which case, there was probably a better use for the "spare" cardstock space.
Alex C wrote:Was there any timeframe given for the US stuff reaching Ninja Division and being shipped out?
Hearing about web orders being fulfilled inside of a week has clouded my memory...
CptJake wrote:I'm not sure if it was implied or directly stated, but I was under the impression Ninja Division took some of their stock to GENCON and would ship out the rest during August.
No specific timescale beyond a (rather hollow) "hope" to get everything out during August, but yes, they have shipped all North America stuff to Ninja who, having taken a load to GenCon and apparently taken any uncollected ones back, will then begin distribution to NA backers, I'd assume over this next week or so.
biggusdoggus wrote: they are blast/acid spit templates for the wargame. Odd that they included them in the boardgame box - I guess they had space on the cardstock and thought "why not" - ultimately it saves you ordering plastic ones from them or (probably) doing cut-out/photocopy and stick from the wargame rulebook, so I get it, but it does seem to confuse the two products for no good reason. An added concern is that I've seen one gamer on facebook state that he's glad he has multiple copies of the boardgame because he found there aren't quite enough tokens in a single box - in which case, there was probably a better use for the "spare" cardstock space.
I think the spit template is that longer one, so there are two blast templates? Sure, why not ... Frankly, if all the space on the cardboard would've been used, there could be roughly tripple or quadrupple the number in tokens.
Update regarding the cards. Received an answer, I will get replacement ASAP. Well, we'll see, what ASAP means for them.
I don't think so. There does not seem to be a big US retail presence yet, all the ones I've seen are coming from the UK. So, hopefully there are folks waiting for copies with cheaper shipping in the US.
warboss wrote: So basically everyone has copies of the game in hand that wants them except for the majority of backers who paid two years ago?
Yup. Retailers and the general public can give Prodos money and get hold of it as much as they like, but those of us who bought a KS pledge have to wait because they already have our money and therefore we don't represent a fresh revenue stream.
Unfortunate that my first post to Dakka Dakka has to be a negative one.
Prodos poor handling of this and their compete lack of communication has exhausted my patience. I've posted the following to their Facebook pages, but if it disappears due to "technical" issues, I've copied it below. If Prodos do not bother to update backers in a meaningful manner I suggest that backers, either UK based or outside the UK, contact trading standards via the e-mail. It would be helpful if this could be flagged with other backers or websites. I'll happy post outcomes to this thread.
Well Prodos you have exhausted my patience. To give you a fighting chance, let me give you a chance to update your backers with concrete information and clear dead lines. You might also like to explain exactly why the Kickstarter page was suspended, why Kickstarter exclusive box sets were sent to sale before backers and why you are unwilling to maintain any form of communication with backers.
Just to let you know, first thing Friday I will be passing on the full details of this to Warwickshire County Council Trading Standards. Likewise, I will be contacting the licensing department of 20th Century Fox and inform them of the referral of this to trading standards, as they too are involved.
I'll be posting a copy of this to wargaming forums, suggesting that other backers, in the event of no suitable update, to contact the councils trading standard department. Thankfully full details are on their web site.
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/tradingstandards
Wont do anything they aren't covered under trading standards as they have sold neither goods nor services . You have invested i a business expansion and unfortunately the outcome hasn't been as forecast and returns are slower than expected . Expect a polite letter from trading standards agency telling you there's nothing they can do.
And this KS was clearly a pre-order, Prodos treated it that way, promising very specific deliverables for a very clear price. They sold the exact same product via their webstore (selling complete pledge packages.)
feth trying to call it 'investing in their expansion'. That is a load of dung.
when you pledge in a kickstarter you aren't guaranteed any return for your outlay .the backer can say they plan to produce something and as a thank you for your support they can give you rewards but they dont have too (its in the t&cs ) kickstarter just states that a reasonable effort should be made by the campaign starter to follow through with what the campaign was set up for .
Do i think we will get our box sets ..yes ..am i pissed off its taking so long and others can purchase the final product ? ...yes but you have to remember that from day one prodos said their intention was to produce a box game to bring to retail and thats what they have done !! .
Ok they did say that pledgers would get copies at an earlier date
But they wouldn't be the first to fail in that respect ! A issue ttat was well known about before prodos even started the campaign.
Uhm ... I know, it's not totally related, but there are several companies - Cmon, Mantic - that view KS purely as a pre-order system, and it works for them.
Every creator gives specific dates and all but the rarest live up to them. Specific price, look at the above two companies for example, doing the exact thing. They did expand, sort of - they even expanded into "how much BS can you tell investores without them having legal ground to sue my ass".
Curnow ... I'm not sure where to put you ... Unfortunately, I can't C&P the english version, since from my end, KS is now in german and that won't do you no good, but I think to recall that in da Rulz KS says or at least used to say: Creator must fullfill or reimburse. Now don't get me wrong, KS gives a crap if either or. They cash their cut and that's that for them. And even if a creator would reimburse, I really really doubt, KS would hand over their share.
Now, yes, they said boxed game, and they said exclusive KS version. That the first run in the shops would be the KS exclusive version (minus the exclusiveness) wasn't mentioned until months after the campaign and after they already ran late. We all where promised freebies according to our Levels, up to now, none. I'm not exactly sure, but I think recalling, Facehuggers to be in the box ... well, none.
No, they wouldn't be the first and won't be the last, but as I said many many many times before to them: This isn't a contest to run the worst campaign, stop competing! What have they done? Sure, they made Jim, Hans and Pierre happy, that they didn't have to part with their money months and years in advance but on the same breath disgruntled about 1,750 backers - maybe there are some still happy. Not one of them. Not too sure if it was "Berserker exclusive" or if resin was the only exclusiveness on that, but no matter, people had the chance afterwards for them as well. There are companies, who run a great campaign - some do a decent job, straight forward, not much to complain - other suck dingelingadong and you probably won't see them again, but they fullfilled - there are those who run out of money and virtually die and those who literally run with the money - and then there are those who seem to really try hard to hit every mine, to kill the ship they're on and have a great time doing so. Intent to kill the fan- and customer base in every possible way.
From what I read, some, by far not all, will never buy any future add-ons. If there ever will be, if Fox doesn't pull the plug on Prodos for this one.
Ok they did say that pledgers would get copies at an earlier date
actually, they didn't say that, at least not in the initial kickstarter offering. They implied it, by saying that retail would be available towards the end of 2014 (with kickstarter delivery set for May 2014), but given that those date are estimates by definition (and as we know have turned out to be gross underestimates) they did not specifically state that pledgers would definitely get their copies prior to it going to retail.
That said, they did say an awful lot of things that haven't come to fruition, particularly in respect to exclusivity of a number of components, not just the resin models, but also cards, tokens, and the "deluxe" box itself, plus of course the short story / fluff that should be in the rulebook, but isn't.
I'm amused by a paragraph in their "risks and challenges" section ...
As a team we are highly experienced in logistics and manufacturing and have learnt a lot about expectation and delays having already completed a highly successful Kickstarter campaign for our first project: Warzone Resurrection.
As a team we are highly experienced in logistics and manufacturing and have learnt a lot about expectation and delays having already completed a highly successful Kickstarter campaign for our first project: Warzone Resurrection.
seriously, you couldn't make that up.
Why? They have learned (geez, aren't they supposed to be british? At least some? I may fill in too many commas, but dang I can at least spell ... most of the time ...) how to sink expectations, how to max out delays and, most importantly, how to turn your gamehungry customer base into a pack of rabid haters.
Alpharius wrote: Actually, doesn't KS say you've entered into a 'contract' with the creator?
It certainly used to say that...
It's a contract, but it's hard to enforce when the creator doesn't deliver. Technically, one could use the courts to compel them to deliver or refund, and there is minimal precedent for this.
yeah,
Trading standards Job is prevent people from cheating people out of money.
I would hope trading standards I think would take a dim view of Prodos.
I know that in America there has been a KS legal case taken to court against project creator who took the money and used it for other things.
Prodos said they would use the money to make copies of the game for KS backers.
But they seem to have taken it to set up a business providing copies of the game to non-backers.
Didn't they blame the recent strike action for delaying their shipments?
Hasn't that cleared?
Thinking about taking legal action and submitting a small claims court claim.
Ok now admittedly I am no global law expert, but I would think it's going to cost money to sue or take other legal action, right? How does that make any sense? Even if you won, most likely you break even. I honestly don't think they have enough money to give refunds. I bet they were strapped for cash when warzone didn't have them bringing in enough revenue stream. I mean do what you want, I just can't see the point. I just hope they survive long enough for me to get all my stuff.
In the UK actions via the Small Claims Court do have a fee based on the amount you are claiming. Upto £300 say, it is £25 or £35 depending if you do it on line or via paper copies. There might be other fees depending on how far the case progresses in the courts, but if you win they are reimbursed.
Kickstarter is a grey area legally and yes there are caveats around projects failing and no guarantees. However, this one has funded, the product produced and is on sale. For me, the crux of the matter is the frankly shadey actions of Prodos which have not filled me with confidence. The lack of communications, the constant blaming of third parties or events outside of their conto (which are manageable)l, their apparent inability to actually run a company or manage contractors.
Yes I could sit on my hands and in all likelihood the product will probably arrive. But unfortunately I'm not convinced, with luck I won't need Trading Standards or enforcement, but I'd rather start the process now. I have backed kickstarters which have been delayed, the one main difference was the communication, the clarity and the fact that didn't ignor the backers. Something sadly lacking from Prodos.
I'm rather with Grumpae at this one. Sure, their methods are sub anything, but, and that's a big but, they started delivering. Not as fast as hoped, not in the anticipated order and all that doesn't make good on their behavior. With busniness standards as these they can't hope to be in the business for too long. But they didn't run with the money. I'd rather see my stuff than them in court. Though I guess it'll take a long time, until this has all been delivered.
i see no point in pursuing legal action at his point. They have made the product, is is making it to market, and it most definitely is also making it to backers as well. As such, they are meeting their commitment. Sure, they've not handled things well, their communication is poor (hell, it's practically non-existent and when it does happen is chock full of mis-truths and sometimes plain lies) but we are getting our stuff.
You don't have a leg to stand on. Legal action will most certainly lead to that being confirmed, but cost you both time and money in the process.
Better, if you feel really put out by this all, to vote with your feet with respect to being a future Prodos customer, and be sure to tell your friends that you think they should be avoided as well.
Legal action is certainly the last resort, as it comes with a cost and is time consuming.
Again, I'd be happy if I actually saw some evidence, I don't see large numbers of people on forums confirming that they have revived copies. Those that do appear to have picked them up directly. With no regular or coherent updates from Probos we are left in the dark. Their previous actions do not do anything to provide assurances that they are filling their commitments. They have social media channels that they could use, they have the Kickstarter mailing list and if all else fails large forums. There is frankly no excuse for their head in the sand approach.
As for voting with my feet, no worries there. Prodos have lost me as a future direct customer. I might buy their products if it is on a shelf, but I'll not buy direct from them or support their kickstarters.
Anyhow, hopefully we will have an update shortly from them.
Jim, all duly noted and I will not tell you otherwise ...
But another fact is, even with the KS page up, the vast majority of backers didn't participate in any discussions.
So it can and must be assumed, they are thinly spread on forums like BGG, Dakka, Prodos' itself and different FB-Groups that are held by Prodos (and cencored) and some that are not.
Roughly, if nicknames are any indicator, out of all of those backers I see not even a hundred participating in forums - can't say zp about FB, not using it.
Whileas I don't want to say, all of those silent people are appy backers, they are in the grey and for all we know they might have their stuff or don't.
Directly for Prodos (though I doubt you still read here): You showcased your stuff with Battlesystems, look at them as guideline how to handle a KS and customers, not at Defiance or Palladium Books.
No worries Moses Bad. Good point, it might just be the vocal minority and we are at the very end of the mailing list.
While backers are spread across forums, even on the bigger ones and the smaller ones, I see little positive AvP press and certainly very little in the way of painted miniatures, games played etc. Which going on the quality and subject matter I'd have expected to see plenty.
As for the Probos Facebook page, well if you want a case study in how not to manage social media, it's right there.
No way how they might want to turn it, they not just let the ball drop. I once said, they kicked it off to Pluto ... by now I'm aiming for Alpha Centaury.
There are so many ways I told them how to handle things better, they confirmed, followed it for a week or two and then went back to basics which in Prodos' case means silence.
KS or no KS, in the end it was a business transaction and even if not you can't just take peoples money and then flipp the bird.
Roughly 60 to 70% of the neg-press could've been avoided, if they just went honest, even if all they said was "we can't tell much but here is the little we do". Instead they chose to hide or blame other people. If you're doing business with a dinosaur (both in age as in size) like Fox you don't give out timelines and if you do you phrase it around stuff like "we hope we will be able to".
It wasn't all Prodos' fault things went slow, that much I have to give them. Some suit taking weeks to approve a sprue is way beyond ridicolous.
But if they would've taken into account what several backers have told them how to communicate, well, you can imagine.
This campaign started with a buzz, yeah - finally - an AvP game with great minis to show.
But slowely and surely they killed it.
The minis are great, lookwise, though not to assemble - at least the marines are a pain in the butt.
The tiles, while looking good, could've used more variety. Crates on nearly all of them? How hard is it to draw different sets and then smashed in ones of the same for the infested tiles? Blastmarks, scorchmarks, stuff like that to add atmosphere. I nearly would've said spent shells but marine guns don't spill out shells.
The rules will be looked at in some time and I'm sure I can tweak what I don't like.
But all of that, all the positive in these few lines don't and will never make up for the way Prodos handles it's customers.
I may have my two copies, granted - but the bulk of what I ordered is still nowhere to be seen and we've seen boxes shock full with Crushers, for example.
I can not and will not support Prodos in a way making good press for them, when it gets to their management. And how they handle QC issues still remains to be seen. Like I said, they want to send out ASAP. If that's the same ASAP they've done so far ... well, I'm not holding my breath.
Grumpae sums up my thoughts. "I just hope they survive long enough for me to get all my stuff. "
I really don't see much success with action against them, given that goods are now going out. I'd be pretty disappointed if the next wave ended up an asset as Prodos shut their doors due to legal action.
I'm not terribly upset (although it's not great) about retailers getting it first either. They aren't going to get all the KS freebies. So I'm getting more value for money even if I have to wait (a lot) longer. It's a small comfort. While it's disastrous to their backer base, I can see how they may have been forced (a lot of it their own fault) down that route.
Moses mentioned Battle Systems. My box for the Fantasy terrain arrived on Monday. There were a few little hitches in their delivery for a few backers. But they had everything very well planned, so they really were minor. In the middle of shipping, they answered my e-mail in under an hour on a Saturday. Heck, they knew more about the fault than the courier where the fault was.
I was really looking forward to not only these figures, but others in the future. That seems remote enough that I'm not sure Hudson would pick it up on a motion tracker.
I'm not terribly upset (although it's not great) about retailers getting it first either. They aren't going to get all the KS freebies. So I'm getting more value for money even if I have to wait (a lot) longer. It's a small comfort. While it's disastrous to their backer base, I can see how they may have been forced (a lot of it their own fault) down that route.
Until we see retail prices both on the Prodos webstore and what discounters charge, your 'more value for the money' is really more of an assumption than a fact. The only KS exclusive at this point is the Berserker, and though pre-ordering via KS may have gotten us a better deal, we also had money tied up for well over a year. Freebies like the face huggers were assuredly priced into our pledges. If retail prices are comparable to KS prices, retail customers may well come out ahead. Remember, Prodos sold pledge levels at the same price on their webstore after the KS, and they avoided the KS and (at the time) Amazon payment fees so they netted more per pledge.
thothkins wrote: Moses mentioned Battle Systems. My box for the Fantasy terrain arrived on Monday. There were a few little hitches in their delivery for a few backers. But they had everything very well planned, so they really were minor. In the middle of shipping, they answered my e-mail in under an hour on a Saturday. Heck, they knew more about the fault than the courier where the fault was.
I was really looking forward to not only these figures, but others in the future. That seems remote enough that I'm not sure Hudson would pick it up on a motion tracker.
I'll be happy if I just get these.
Yeah, if you read in their comments, you know I'm one of those unfortunate chumps to receive someone elses order But as I said, stuff like that can happen and as long as it gets resolved, I have no beef. OK, so my mail from today hasn't been answered yet, but still I don't think that's reason for concern - dependig on incoming mails, an answer can very well take up to five days or maybe even more.
First time post ob Dakka, being watching the Prodos AVP KS closely on Dakka and other forums, and the Prodos AVP Facebook group page, as I am a backer, in the UK
Whileas I don't want to say, all of those silent people are appy backers, they are in the grey and for all we know they might have their stuff or don't.
I am one of the "grey's", don't have my stuff and am not happy with Prodos
Grumpae wrote: I just hope they survive long enough for me to get all my stuff.
That is my stance too. I believe, or hope, we will get the main game, but have my doubts about the rest of the stuff
It is my perseption that Prodos during 2014 were promoting at a lot of shows, but appear to have withdrawn from the circuit during 2015, not wanting any face-to-face contact with KS backers
Also, the Calais dispute was just another excuse they could use, other stuff was getting through and since (I know, received items from the continent for work), just another Prodos smoke screen
I don't even want to think about the possibility that they won't be able to ship the extras. I pledged just shy of 1100 GBP (approx. 2000 CAD) for this and if all I get are three copies of the board game... Yeah, I know its my fault for going in so heavy on this, long time fan of the franchise and lost my mind for sure. Especially in hindsight. I would never, ever go this crazy on another ks project. Lesson learned I guess.
It is my perseption that Prodos during 2014 were promoting at a lot of shows, but appear to have withdrawn from the circuit during 2015, not wanting any face-to-face contact with KS backers
Your perception is wrong. They were at GenCon this weekend.
It is my perseption that Prodos during 2014 were promoting at a lot of shows, but appear to have withdrawn from the circuit during 2015, not wanting any face-to-face contact with KS backers
Your perception is wrong. They were at GenCon this weekend.
they've also been at UK Expo and Salute, two of the biggest UK shows this year, and maybe others.
Yup, also Crusade in Penarth nr. Cardiff. They weren't promoting AVP at the time, just Warzone. In fairness I got the impression that they were fully aware of problems, just not in a position that they could do any more to help.
PomWallaby wrote: In fairness I got the impression that they were fully aware of problems, just not in a position that they could do any more to help.
Honestly,this is the impression I've gotten, too. Both from the FB posts and interactions from their employees and from my direct interactions with them at GC.
krazynadechukr wrote: The fact backers don't have their games yet, but stores & ebay stores are already selling them to Q Public!
There will always be ebay sales before all backers get product. Considering a good portion of US people picked up pledges at GenCon, I can see many of them selling them. Some got their copies from retail first, then selling their pledge they picked up. Others just tired of waiting will be selling their box as well. This isn't entirely new as I've seen this with many KS, people who get pledges first starting to sell them.
CptJake wrote: Until we see retail prices both on the Prodos webstore and what discounters charge, your 'more value for the money' is really more of an assumption than a fact.
Possibly. But it was an assumption I found appealing. It arrived well packaged, very quickly from my initial investment in it. It also arrived in a single piece without any fiddly assembly. I'm so impressed I'm tempted to go for the very reasonable Wilful Ignorance add on. That should keep me going into the new year.
Moses Bad wrote: Yeah, if you read in their comments, you know I'm one of those unfortunate chumps to receive someone else's order .
Oh, to be a person who got 10 sets with all the add ons by mistake. Just for a few minutes before closing the box back up. >sigh< Hope it gets sorted out for you really quickly Moses.
Grumpae wrote: I don't even want to think about the possibility that they won't be able to ship the extras. I pledged just shy of 1100 GBP (approx. 2000 CAD) for this and if all I get are three copies of the board game... .
Is there a post where I can see what you'd get for that at a glance? Wow. I do understand the appeal for the minis and this particular franchise. I can see your way of saying "I just hope..to get all my stuff." has a bit more resonance than mine with that sort of outlay. Although I'd feel like an idiot for putting more money in only a week or so ago, after seeing all these issues.
Some even sell stuff, they haven't yet - like one Robotech Tactics sale I've seen on ebay, where one was selling his pledge for a ridicolous price ... and their wave 2 is nowhere to be seen as well.
It happens, will always, as long as people are willing to buy.
Is there a post where I can see what you'd get for that at a glance? Wow. I do understand the appeal for the minis and this particular franchise. I can see your way of saying "I just hope..to get all my stuff." has a bit more resonance than mine with that sort of outlay. Although I'd feel like an idiot for putting more money in only a week or so ago, after seeing all these issues.
Well you asked for it... Sorry in advance for the spamish nature of this. Honestly don't even know how to feel about it really, but I'm fairly sure I'm still excited though.
Pledge: Get to the chopper
Included & Free items ( 3 X )
A Royal Guard x1( 1 )
KS P Berserker( 2 )
AVP Game (Box)( 1 )
Facehuggers x9( 1 )
Picked 100k stretch item/s:
A Warrior x5
A Warrior x5
A Stalkers x5
Picked 155k stretch item/s:
M Sentry guns x2
M Sentry guns x2
M Sentry guns x2
Picked 310k stretch item/s:
A Eggs (Obj. Marker) x4
Add ons
M Colonial Marines x5 (Add-on)( 7 )
P Cloaked Young Blood x3( 2 )
P Cloaked Berserker x1( 3 )
Major Dutch Schaefer( 1 )
Lieutenant Linn Kurosawa( 1 )
P Cloaked Pred x1 (Spear)( 4 )
P Cloaked Pred x1 (Disc)( 4 )
Extra bits (3heads, 4 guns)( 4 )
Predator ship (Extra tiles)( 1 )
P Young Blood x3( 2 )
P Cloaked Pred x1 (Ranged)( 4 )
P Predator Hellhounds x2( 3 )
P Predators x3( 2 )
P Spear (Obj. Marker) x4( 1 )
A Queen x1( 3 )
Predator dice x3( 2 )
A Crusher x1( 2 )
A Predalien x1( 4 )
A Eggs (Obj. Marker) x4( 4 )
A Warrior x5( 8 )
A Royal Guard x1( 3 )
A Stalkers x5( 4 )
A Infant x5( 3 )
Alien dice x3( 3 )
Weyland-Yutani Commandos( 7 )
Half synthetic (Obj. Marker) x4( 1 )
M Power Loader x1( 2 )
M Sergeant x1( 4 )
M Sentry guns x2( 4 )
Marines dice x3( 2 )
Pledge: You want a Piece of me you ugly...
Included & Free items ( 1 X )
A Facehuggers x5( 1 )
A Royal Guard x1( 1 )
KS P Berserker( 2 )
Hardback Rulebook( 1 )
Picked 100k stretch item/s:
A Warrior x5
Picked 155k stretch item/s:
M Sentry guns x2
Picked 310k stretch item/s:
A Eggs (Obj. Marker) x4
Also, the Calais dispute was just another excuse they could use, other stuff was getting through and since (I know, received items from the continent for work), just another Prodos smoke screen
To be fair I know someone who works in a company that imports/exports and has had an absolute nightmare with what's going on in Calais.
Although that's not to exonnerate Prodos at all, it's absolutely disgusting that they're sending out multiple deliveries to shops and website purchasers when they still have hundreds of people that have paid for their game ages ago still AvP-less.
Also, the Calais dispute was just another excuse they could use, other stuff was getting through and since (I know, received items from the continent for work), just another Prodos smoke screen
To be fair I know someone who works in a company that imports/exports and has had an absolute nightmare with what's going on in Calais.
I can understand some disruption due the ongoing Calais issue, but it's not an insurmountable barrier. I'd have expected either Prodos or their carrier to have actioned some from of business continuity or a work around solution. Mind you, I assume that the shipment is stuck in France along with the Prodos employee responsible for communicating with the backers.
Moses Bad wrote: I may "only" be in for roughly 550 GBP, that's still some money.
I just wanted to say, I'm definitly not bragging, nor do I feel that because I was so foolish as to pledge so much that I somehow deserve better treatment than other backers. As far as I'm concerned any money put into this kickstarter has become high risk. If only I had known at the time, I would never have gone in this much, I guess in my head ks was more of a pre-order thing and I didn't realize the risk involved. I just hope that everyone gets their stuff, and enjoys it when they do.
I've not yet sat through it all, but the first 20 minutes of this make for uncomfortable watching from the point of view of the longevity of the boardgame. Joe is very very critical of the rulebook design, the complexity of the rules themselves (which he notes appear to be wargame rules shoehorned into a boardgame), the lack of individual force reference sheets, the small size of the action tokens, and then the fact that the beautiful looking models aren't even on the frigging board at the start of the game.
Alex C wrote: His thoughts basically summed up my perception so far; beautiful minis but you'll need to fix the rules/rulebook yourself.
Hopefully the Wargame rules are presented better.
Yeah the rulebook is horrible even if you forgive the poor spelling and grammar (which I can't). There's some fan made reference sheets on Facebook which helps, but it shoudln't have been necessary.
I'm told that the Wargame rules are based on WZR, and that the WZR rulebook is pretty horrible as well. I've never played so can't comment, but it doesn't bode well for AvP; The Miniatures Game.
I know, though I'm not even close to the biggest investors. But it doesn't matter if you pledged for one copy or halluva lot more - WE made this game and Prodos is mostly denying it.
chak wrote: Oh no it's not a Calais's problem : I'm french (in Paris) and i can say that no french backers have received anything at this time !
It "could" be Jims problem, since he's british - BUT, probably just another one of those come in handy excuses by Prodos. Roughly a month ago they could've used german postal strike as an excuse and would.
Grumpae wrote: I just wanted to say, I'm definitly not bragging, nor do I feel that because I was so foolish as to pledge so much that I somehow deserve better treatment than other backers. As far as I'm concerned any money put into this kickstarter has become high risk. If only I had known at the time, I would never have gone in this much, I guess in my head ks was more of a pre-order thing and I didn't realize the risk involved. I just hope that everyone gets their stuff, and enjoys it when they do.
I didn't want to put you up as a bragger. You love the franchises - faceeatness I remember - and went head over heels. Can happen. Remember some guy in another KS complaining, now he's got neither minis nor food - THAT is foolish.
You deserve the same treatment as every backer which should be helluva lot better than Prodos is showing. This was a combined effort, no matter how much a single person added. This sours the whole behaviour by them, to put new customers and retail first. OK, retail may be contract mumbo jumbo by Fox, could be. But new online shop customers should be put back in line, far end. After all this "you get it first" we'd at least deserve that much.
That would be a cool side by side. Do you have any of the female ones? I've got a dozen of the clix variety from chieftain to invisible but they obviously didn't make that kind and I'm curious how they'd look next to the rest of the clan. If you have any of the clix ones, can you throw them in the pic as well?
Pacific wrote: If I had pledged £550 on this and still not received any goods I would be considering legal action.
What the feth is wrong with them, at the very least you would have thought they would have had the sense to placate the big spenders.
The idea of legal action might have a certain appeal and with them being in the EU like myself it would even possible. But the cost that would bring should also be considered. Sure as hell I don't want to justify what they did and do and will do, but that could mean losing more money, than actual gaining, since they (partly) shipped some games to backers. Regarding the part with big spenders, I must object. As stated before, this was joint effort, not the deed of those who paid for more than a copy of the game and a few add-ons. Prodos should placate all of their backers - without all of us, this game would've either never seen the light of day or considerably later ... according from their present speed somewhere around 2020.
Well Prodos have had a week to sort themselves out, as there has been no communications or updates I have reported them to Trading Standards.
For other backers, a bit of a wall of text, but here is the Citizans Advice information on where you stand, with some support to backers outside the UK and legal bits. If you are happy to wait and hope that Prodos deliver, then please skip...
This is rumour control...
1). Prodos now is in breach of UK distance selling legislation as their contact number is not connected. Likewise, I don’t think the postal address of the small industrial unit is their company headquarters, so another breach. I’ve made enquiries as to activity at the postal address, so I hope to be able to confirm whether or not Prodos are actually using the site.
2). Concerned backers should contact UK Citizens Advice either by phone or e-mail. At the current time, this would be civil dispute and there is no legal requirement for Trading Standards to investigate. However, weight of complaints play a key part of this, so the more complaints made to Citizens Advice the more chance there is of Trading Standards investigating and taking action.
3). As Prodos is not communicating and does not appear to be sending the product out, this should now be considered as a breach of contract. The terms and conditions of both the Kickstarter and Prodo should be taken into consideration. However, via the T&C’s of Kickstarter we the backers have fulfilled outside of the contract by fully funding the Kickstarter. Prodos is now required to deliver as per the Kickstarter project outline (so copies of the game and related add ons etc). As there is physical product, then the legal terms, conditions and timescales as outlined in the UK distance selling legislation are also relevant. As such Prodos, now have to either honour the contract as agreed or return you to the position pre contract i.e. return your money. A beach of contact template can be found here. This should be completed and two copies produced, one to be sent via registered post to Prodos headquarters and one to be kept on file.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/taking-action-about-consumer-problems/making-a-complaint/write-a-letter/list_of_sample_letters/
4). Backers should contact Trading Standards via Citizens Advice, this can be via phone or e-mail (for those outside of the UK), they take the details, provide initial advice and will pass on the complaint to, in this case Warwickshire Trading Standards and your own local authority Trading Standards if UK based. You will need Prodos address as this is required. Now at this stage it is deemed as civil dispute and there is no legal requirement for Trading Standards to investigate, unless of course you have had a chat and a coffee with your local head of trading standards. However, weight of complaints play a key part of this, so the more complaints made to Citizens Advice the more chance there is of Trading Standards investigating and taking action.
5). In the UK if you paid on your credit card and it was more than £100 then your credit card company is “jointly and severally liable for any breach of contract or misrepresentation by the company” under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Now you will need to go via your cards complaint process as well, so double check.
6). However, Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act also applies to foreign transactions as well as goods bought online, by telephone or mail order for delivery to the UK from overseas. Full details can be found here along with further guidance for amounts under the £100 figure.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act
7). If this is unsuccessful then you can escalate to the financial omboardsman for no cost, I’m presuming this is for UK individuals but it would be worth checking with Citizens Advice for those outside of the UK.
8). If at the end of this you are unsuccessful or there is a need to take matters further, that is then via the County Court, which Citizens Advice can assist with. However, I haven’t explored how that is applicable to backers outside of the UK, it might need to be a group action or similar.
... seriously?
Going from disgruntled (rightfully) to small child tantrum?
I'm no lawyer, but I'd say, paragraph 3 will break your neck.
True, shipping to backers hasn't taken priority for them. But, and I say BUT - they do ship, did, whichever. All any court has to find is one backer that got something and to be true, there is at least one. And if you don't believe me, the backing account was/is Andrea. As dusgruntled as I am about the behaviour, the delays, the zip of silence, I will not lie and say we received nothing.
Moses Bad wrote: ... seriously?
Going from disgruntled (rightfully) to small child tantrum?
I'm no lawyer, but I'd say, paragraph 3 will break your neck.
True, shipping to backers hasn't taken priority for them. But, and I say BUT - they do ship, did, whichever. All any court has to find is one backer that got something and to be true, there is at least one. And if you don't believe me, the backing account was/is Andrea. As dusgruntled as I am about the behaviour, the delays, the zip of silence, I will not lie and say we received nothing.
Not to mention a not insignificant number of backers have received product....
cincydooley wrote: Not to mention a not insignificant number of backers have received product....
Mh, I don't know. I really don't. Like I said, we know zip about the vast majority. Afterwards online shop customers don't apply There are so many things, they could've done to make this a better experience for everybody ...
Small child tantrum, an interesting view. I'd hope that it is more an outline of actions that people can take using consumer law. But if you want me to scream until I'm sick, I might need a bit of a run up. Again, if you want to sit and wait, please do so. But in the absence of any information on product or timescales you may wish to start taking steps.
The above is from Citizans Advice in the UK and is the legal position. I spent a constructive half an hour discussing the ins and outs with one of their advisors. Whilst it is dependant on exact specifics it is a starter for ten.
Now, Prodos are free to demonstrate that they have sent products out and they would need to also demonstrate that they have fully met their contractual obligations to all backers. Yes it is a bit hazy, but again if you wish to start looking at your options here are some pointers.
Now let's see, what I see.
1900+ backers with roughly (and benefit ofd the doubt) 100 (I think it's far less, but I'll be generous) writing in the forums I frequent.
Of these 100 a few are grinding their teeth, are less than happy how this is handled and rightfully so.
Of these 100 a few are overly supporting for the company that has taken our money and doesn't seem to be obliged too much with that tid bit of fullfilling their part of the deal. Their problem.
Of these 100 a few are stomping their feet, would lovingly lob that mentioned grenade and get even, pull charges or maybe beat Prodos' staff to a pulp if encountered.
No matter how you twist it and turn it, that leaves roughly 1800 backers you know nothing about - like I told you, like you accepted.
A little number juggeling: Now imagine you are a company that has fethed up seriously - not so bad you go bankrupt, but your investors are utterly pissed at you.
Let's assume, of those 1900 backers, only 10% write an email every two days, demanding an answer - that's 190 emails every two days.
I don't know about you, but even with the best intentions my happiness to answer them or give them the answers they deserve or an answer that soothes them dwindles rappidly.
Ok, now we handled their less than stellar email answering.
Let's get to updates.
For months nobody was happy about their updates, again, rightfully so. Would you want to put out weekly updates you just know will generate hundreds of mails full of negative feedback, justified or not? I doubt it.
Updates done, moving on to shipping.
To call it slow would be an understatement.
They have packing errors, but those happen with the biggest companies as well. That little fact they shipp out online shop orders is beyond anything I can put into words, said so before and I stand with that. There hasn't even been news about their UK distributor talk or the US and I dare say, that's where the bulk of the games is going to, or should go to.
OK, so far, so good.
Up to now, all I've seen are a few less than happy backers, me among them.
One dude ranting like he wants to start a witchhunt and crucify all of Prodos' staff but is just words.
And then there's you.
One, out of 1900+ people.
You know, it can be mere coincedence, but there's this Big Jim V on the Prodos forums giving out their updates and tryed to soothe the angry backers. Struck me a little odd.
Go ahead, make your claims. Go to them eye to eye - in an office or at a con. You can do whatever makes you happy.
yeah,
I'm equally unhappy and don't like being treated like gak by prodos.
Their continuous lies and mistruths have worn me down... but I waited.
We would get our game 1 month before retail... not great, but that's OK I guess.
Then they said they would be selling to Stores at the same time as shipping to backers, FOX contractual obligations??? Crap... but fine I'm still getting the game 'soon'...
The game hits retail.
...
...
But yet I'm still waiting...
Prodos are selling it on their webstore and delivering within 5 days! so their online store isn't having problems at Calais...
I'm still waiting.
online stores selling stock cheap on eBay.
I'm still waiting...
feth it I'm done waiting...
I've had enough I want my stuff or my money back the advice given above is great.
A fair point that we are unsighted on exact numbers, however, I'd go with the lack of posts about backers receiving their product. The only"look at this cool stuff" that I have seen has been from those either pick up copies from a small stock at show or how have bought them. We could argue numbers all day, but I'd suggest that we are both in the dark about who has actually received anything.
As for my "ranting like I want to start a witch hunt and crucify all Prodos staff", well I think you might be a tad far of the mark. As I say if you want to start looking at issues here they are. Yes I've reported them to traded standards, nothing wrong with that at all, in fact a sensible move if you wish in future to progress a claim. As for the "pin out, grenade in" approach, yes it could look that way, but as I've exhausted the gentle routes, sometimes you need to push a little harder.
As for suggesting that my messages here suggest some form of wish to go "eye to eye in an office or at con", can I politely suggest that you are very wide of the mark.
I can understand that Prodos might be snowed under with e-mails, but being unable to post one update, put one message on social media. I'm sorry but that smacks either of total incompetence or there is no one there.
As for my user name being similar to someone on the Prodos messages boards, that is a coincidence. I use the same name on TMP, Frothers, Wargames Web Site etc. In fact given sometime this weekend, I'll hopefully post in other sections, just to avoid being the "foot stomping one" on the AvP thread.
cincydooley wrote: Not to mention a not insignificant number of backers have received product....
Mh, I don't know. I really don't. Like I said, we know zip about the vast majority. Afterwards online shop customers don't apply
There are so many things, they could've done to make this a better experience for everybody ...
And I don't think they disagree with that at all.
Regardless, there are at least the 100 people that got their copies at GenCon, and the additional folks in the EU that have received them. Any notion of a "breach of contract" is absurd, if only because they are making a good faith effort (regardless if how "good' you think their effort it) to get product into people's hands.
And then there's the whole fact that Kickstarter doesn't actually promise you any kind of physical product....
But then again I couldn't care less if they sell it at retail first. I don't support KS projects because I need to be first...
Big Jim wrote: A fair point that we are unsighted on exact numbers, however, I'd go with the lack of posts about backers receiving their product. The only"look at this cool stuff" that I have seen has been from those either pick up copies from a small stock at show or how have bought them. We could argue numbers all day, but I'd suggest that we are both in the dark about who has actually received anything.
As for my "ranting like I want to start a witch hunt and crucify all Prodos staff", well I think you might be a tad far of the mark. As I say if you want to start looking at issues here they are. Yes I've reported them to traded standards, nothing wrong with that at all, in fact a sensible move if you wish in future to progress a claim. As for the "pin out, grenade in" approach, yes it could look that way, but as I've exhausted the gentle routes, sometimes you need to push a little harder.
As for suggesting that my messages here suggest some form of wish to go "eye to eye in an office or at con", can I politely suggest that you are very wide of the mark.
I can understand that Prodos might be snowed under with e-mails, but being unable to post one update, put one message on social media. I'm sorry but that smacks either of total incompetence or there is no one there.
As for my user name being similar to someone on the Prodos messages boards, that is a coincidence. I use the same name on TMP, Frothers, Wargames Web Site etc. In fact given sometime this weekend, I'll hopefully post in other sections, just to avoid being the "foot stomping one" on the AvP thread.
Which corrolate with the lack of people in forums. I don't say you are unreasonably frustrated, I only argue the validility of the claim, they haven't shipped. Well, I know I have received. Tre, one out of 1900+ is a very low number, but again, in the dark.
Actually, that witchhunt remark wasn't directed at you at all, which might explain, why you feel it off the mark. Same the grenade thing.
Ah believe me, I've worked CS and it was an experience I wish upon noone. I didn't even dare to take a week off, for nobody was touching my customers (one of few speaking english) so I had an avalanche waiting for me every time. That's why I said again and again, so many oportunities for Prodos, none taken.
Regardless, there are at least the 100 people that got their copies at GenCon, and the additional folks in the EU that have received them. Any notion of a "breach of contract" is absurd, if only because they are making a good faith effort (regardless if how "good' you think their effort it) to get product into people's hands.
And then there's the whole fact that Kickstarter doesn't actually promise you any kind of physical product....
But then again I couldn't care less if they sell it at retail first. I don't support KS projects because I need to be first...
Could be, but it doesn't help, if they show no effort in changing that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think absolutely nobody here cares for people who had to collect themselves. Sure, backer got stuff, but they had to do it on their own. Sorry, in my book collecting doesn't add to shipped. No, KS did not - Prodos did and that's all what this is about.
cincydooley wrote: Any notion of a "breach of contract" is absurd, if only because they are making a good faith effort (regardless if how "good' you think their effort it) to get product into people's hands.
And then there's the whole fact that Kickstarter doesn't actually promise you any kind of physical product....
But then again I couldn't care less if they sell it at retail first. I don't support KS projects because I need to be first...
Now the key issue, is that contract is with the company producing the item, not Kickstarter. Now a failure of a project at the funding stage and then a company running off with the cash would be a bit of a legal grey area. However, if a company asks you to back a project, which then fully funds, that under UK law (as I understand from the experts) is a contract. They ask you to fund for an identified outcome and delivery, you do, they have the cash and you have a contract.
Now in this situation, it's funded (we the backers have done ourside of the contract), Prodos have produced said item but haven't / don't distribute. That is a clear breach under UK law, full stop.
Now without any form of communication we are in a bit of a pickle, if you are a unicorn and raindows kind of person then there is evidence that Prodos are fulfilling their side however slowly. Well that's super, nothing to worry about. If you are a glass half empty person, then the lack of communications and poor distribution are a great concern.
However, as you are not a backer, then I guess you must find this all very interesting.
Which corrolate with the lack of people in forums. I don't say you are unreasonably frustrated, I only argue the validility of the claim, they haven't shipped. Well, I know I have received. Tre, one out of 1900+ is a very low number, but again, in the dark.
Actually, that witchhunt remark wasn't directed at you at all, which might explain, why you feel it off the mark.
Same the grenade thing.
Ah believe me, I've worked CS and it was an experience I wish upon noone. I didn't even dare to take a week off, for nobody was touching my customers (one of few speaking english) so I had an avalanche waiting for me every time.
That's why I said again and again, so many oportunities for Prodos, none taken.
Not a problem, Moses Bad and reading back I misunderstood the comments.
There is a skill to CS and it's not easy, likewise communications are a nightmare to get right. But as you say, Prodos have had all the opportunities to sort out the information and have taken none of them. Hence the lack of a coherent understanding.
However, as you are not a backer, then I guess you must find this all very interesting.
I am a backer. Full stop.
I have my base game. Full stop.
Yeah, but you are also one of the lucky few who picked it up at a convention. People unable to do so (at least in the US) are still waiting.
Yes, I understand that.
But it supports a notion, should one want to argue it, that Prodos is making a good faith effort to deliver their product, and is in breach of exactly nothing per Kickstarter's Terms of Use (Section 4).
It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.
Am I fortunate that I have my copy? I guess. Would I be super concerned if I didn't have it yet? Nope. While everything hasn't been perfect, Prodos has been communicative and has remained in the public eye by attending conventions and regularly updating their FB posts and replies.
So again, 'good faith effort.' I see it here. Clearly.
Again, I really don't see any point in going the legal route. The only benefit that I can see is it makes a person feel like they are doing something. I can't see it improving shipping speeds, or their incredible ineptitude when it comes to communication, orginization, and business acumen.
The way I see it, is that we will eventually get our stuff, it will take way too long to get, and many of us (not I) will not want the game by then, however they will fulfill their obligations to us. They will have lost the majority of the people that would have helped make this game a true retail success, and thus eliminated any profitable revenue stream from this venture.
The future of Prodos will most likely be making awesome minis for other more successful companies, and getting out of production of games entirely. The biggest question I have about all of this is why? How for feth's sake can such a (tragic) comedy of errors ever have come to be? Every time they take a step backwards of spew out obvious bs, I just shake my head. Every challange can be seen as a problem, or an opportunity, it seems they consistantly choose the opportunity of making another problem for themselves. I used to wait for them to realize this and improve, I have now given up on that. I really think its in their best interest to get out of dealing with the public in anyway, and just stick to what they actually do best. Make mini's!
Big Jim wrote: Well Prodos have had a week to sort themselves out, as there has been no communications or updates I have reported them to Trading Standards.
:golfclap:
Seriously, good on you for doing this. While it may not improve things in the short run, holding companies accountable can only have positive long term effects.
BTW, the only thing I am surprised about is that you did not also alert Fox Legal that their licensee is in breach of contract, and that you have referred said breach to your local authorities. If Fox Legal gets enough notices, they have a lot more ability to compel Prodos to deliver.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moses Bad wrote: Of these 100 a few are grinding their teeth, are less than happy how this is handled and rightfully so.
Of these 100 a few are stomping their feet, would lovingly lob that mentioned grenade and get even, pull charges or maybe beat Prodos' staff to a pulp if encountered.
Go ahead, make your claims. Go to them eye to eye - in an office or at a con. You can do whatever makes you happy.
From your numbers, you're saying the remaining 1800+ don't care about getting the stuff they paid for? They're basically all OK with flushing their money down the toiletin exchange for a bunch of empty promises?
The likely outcome is that a number of reports forces Prodos to be accountable, like they were supposed to be from the get-go. If Prodos demonstrates substantive Good Faith Effort toward fulfilling the contract, they can probably avoid legal action and investigation, which is what everybody really wants.
BTW, the only thing I am surprised about is that you did not also alert Fox Legal that their licensee is in breach of contract, and that you have referred said breach to your local authorities. If Fox Legal gets enough notices, they have a lot more ability to compel Prodos to deliver.
That's the next option, but hopefully it won't be required as will luck the trading standards route will give the necessary nudge.
JohnHwangDD wrote: From your numbers, you're saying the remaining 1800+ don't care about getting the stuff they paid for? They're basically all OK with flushing their money down the toiletin exchange for a bunch of empty promises?
No, rather they don't participate in Forums or FB or anything at all - every sort of social media is somethig, they don't give a frakk about or, they are someplace entirely else. With the drop of the KS page, some people sort of vanished, because they don't go rummaging in forums.
Like me as an example, I don't care for FB, it can thrive or go to hell, I wouldn't know if my wife wouldn't use it ... and she didn't care for Prodos' FB at all.
I imagine they sure as hell are angry ... but nice how you try to turn my argument around - I did never say, they don't care, all I said is, we know frakk if they received anything.
Please, next time try a little harder or not at all - don't waste my time.
Thank you.
BTW, the only thing I am surprised about is that you did not also alert Fox Legal that their licensee is in breach of contract, and that you have referred said breach to your local authorities. If Fox Legal gets enough notices, they have a lot more ability to compel Prodos to deliver.
That's the next option, but hopefully it won't be required as will luck the trading standards route will give the necessary nudge.
Dinosaur as Fox is, they should be aware of the happenings, the bad rep. Which might be just as irrelevant to them. Game hit retail, all they care about. The backers are just a pesk that will vanish sooner or later.
To quote our chanselour "Das Internet ist für uns alle Neuland" - "The internet is a whole new turf for all of us", like because old geezers have no clue (as in Fox), nobody does.
Other companies have proven so as well - their whole handling is still absolutely 80s. In my impression, they think the only people customers are talking to, are their friends, if a company frakks up. As if they're not even aware of forums, blogs, FB and whatnot.
I wish you the best of luck with your efforts, but doubt anything will change.
cincydooley wrote: Did you contact this trading standards board every time a video game you've preordered gets delayed?
In the UK you'd use trading standards in case where the usual routes for sorting out problems fail. If I had pre ordered an item, the company failed to provide the item and didn't communicate, then yes I would. The important thing is that they are their to protect the consumer and to provide assurance.
I've backed other kickstarters that have been delayed, but in these cases the companies have maintained constant and clear communications. Yes you need to be sensible and give the companies a chance, but (in my opinion) with no communications, (in my opinion) no product being sent out and the fact that they can't provide a working phone number rings alarm bells for me.
As one of the 'silent' 1800, I am fething ticked off about the nonsense Prodos is pulling. I've been lurking on this forum following this train wreck since Prodos shut down the KS page, but the majority of you have been saying what I would say (and have emailed and messaged Prodos about). I was sympathetic at first, because dealing with corporate suits is no doubt a nightmare. However, I'm tired of the BS and the backers being taken for the ass. I want the items I pledged for, so I can never deal with Prodos directly again. Even having Prodos involved in a project will color my view of potentially backing future kickstarters.
188 copies available on their web shop atm . Wonder if they have tracked delivery could just order all 188 and then put in a paypal claim for them not turning up lol.
Yeah its a joke !i can only hope that the reason they have gone quite is that its all hands to pumps packing up the boxs for you guys .as i didn't have a box game in my pledge just a load of marines I've given up hope of ever seeing them .
Prodos is quite active in their FB page for the game. To claim they aren't is an outright falsehood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just sent my email, complete with photographs, to UK Citizens Advise to let them know how pleased I am with my copy of AvP from Prodos games and how receptive to feedback their in person employees were at GenCon in Indianapolis.
I also sent screenshots of the many interactions Prodos has had with customers on Facebook to provide example of their good faith effort to deliver to backers and provide response to the (often vile) feedback they receive.
@cincydooly,
IMHO that would just be supporting Big Jim's claim seeing that you had to collect it yourself at a con. How is any UK backer reasonably expected to collect from GenCon? I paid to have it shipped to me, I shouldn't have to chase after the few copies going at cons. Also, whilst Prodos is active on FB (and twitter) there are plenty of unanswered posts and frustrated backers. I don't understand the lack of presence on their own forum (a mix of frustrated backers and fanbois).
cincydooley wrote: Prodos is quite active in their FB page for the game. To claim they aren't is an outright falsehood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just sent my email, complete with photographs, to UK Citizens Advise to let them know how pleased I am with my copy of AvP from Prodos games and how receptive to feedback their in person employees were at GenCon in Indianapolis.
I also sent screenshots of the many interactions Prodos has had with customers on Facebook to provide example of their good faith effort to deliver to backers and provide response to the (often vile) feedback they receive.
As a concerned backer, of course.
Fair point, yes they have been active on Facebook, I'm just struggling to see anything relating to them actually updating backers, which is the key point. I'm very glad that they have a new moulding system, but that isn't related to sending out copies of AvP.
I'm very glad you have your copy and that the guys on the Ninja Division stand and the cardboard cut out Prodos member of staff were very receptive.
However, for me I see a lack of direct communication with backers, I'm unable to contact Prodos as their UK phone line doesn't work, they are not responding to polite and civil e-mails and they are not responding to either polite or hostile messages on their Facebook page.
Trading standards will work on a case by case basis and I'm sure some people are happy, however, in my case I have concerns. Likewise I supplied the website links, screenshots, Kickstarter updates etc to show the lack of information In my case.
It's gotten very slippery in here ... oh, blind fanboy, I get it.
OK, so it's been a week since I reported the misshap with my cards. I was told "we will send ASAP" - OK, sounds good at first. But of course, ASAP in Prodos' terms means entirely different things than in those of normal people. I have not gotten the replacement by now and when I asked a week ago, what timetable ASAP follows, guess what, no answer up to today. Sorry, mr blind happy selfcollecting and in your opinion Prodos is god and can do no wrong, there is no such thing as good communcation by Prodos. It's a rare thing, like unicorns, Leprechauns, angels and such. It must've been a glitch, I received that first mail in the first place. Yeah, I know, made the numbes of 190 mails per day myself. Ah well, I have a second game with complete cards, so I'm at least able to play.
Hardly a blind fanboy. Hardly a fanboy at all, in fact.
I think the bitching and moaning has reached a fever pitch and I think it's sad and pathetic, especially since much of it is predicated on blatant mistruths.
"Prodos hasn't been communicative with customers." Lie. Yes they have. They're regularly posting on the FB group.
"But it doesn't have anything to do with fulfillment". Lie. On Aug 7 they made a post that details when wave 1 will be shipping to NA backers, as well as the status of shipping for Euro backers as well as information on wave 2.
"Prodos isn't trying to get anyone that backed the KS product." Lie. As a single concrete example, they air shipped 100 copies to gencon for backers to pick up.
Jim Prodosgames
21 hrs · Edited
This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for Friday August 7, 2015
We are back from a very successful trip to Gencon with our US partners at Ninja Division; I handed out almost 100 AvP boxes to happy backers and had a bunch of great conversations with them about AvP as well. It was awesome meeting everyone who could come to Gencon to pick up their AvP boxes.
Also for anyone that picked up their AvP boxes at Gencon please note you will receive a shipping email as we add you to the system for receiving your boxes. This is just how the system works.
Ninja Division will proceed with shipping to North and South American backers next week.
We are still shipping to backers in the rest of the world, however things are slow going. This is due to packaging changes being make to the core box due to damages caused during shipping. The cards will now be located in the brown interior box with the miniatures. Shipping is also slow because we have half our staff on scheduled vacations. We are legally bound to give them their vacations that were schedules and approved at the beginning of the year.
Wave 2 approval is still pending due to a slight redesign of the packaging that needs to be done, more news when we have it.
More and more we see people asking about seeing the final models for Wave 2, we will show them as soon as the packaging is approved.
Cheers,
Prodos Games LTD
There was also this KS update sent out on July 25th:
Spoiler:
This is Rumour Control, Here are the Facts...
1. Do we have an estimated date when Wave 1 will be completed?
Yep, end of August. We hope sooner than that, of course. By shipping stock to Ninja Division in one bulk, we've managed to reduce the number of parcels to be shipped quite significantly!
2. UK partner?
We still have to confirm this, but it is looking like we will not. This will not necessarily speed things up. It will take us a week to manufacture all the stock, then 4-5 days to get it to the warehouse, then 4-5 days for them to ship. We would think that in 3 weeks time (working days) we could achieve the same ourselves. The UK and EIRE was our largest zone for Backers at roughly 40% of the Kickstarter being the UK and EIRE alone.
3. How many backers have been shipped?
We do not know exact figures, but including the shipment to America, roughly 600.
4. When do the second batch of Wave 2 items go to Fox for approval?
This should occur on Monday or Tuesday of the coming week.
5. What steps have been made to increase output?
We are still sourcing a printer that can print in quality and in high volume. We are also looking at additional assembly companies to work with actually putting the game together and shrinkwrapping it.
We have increased manufacturing capacity by up to 40% this week. A huge step was made last night, with some equipment that arrived. 2 of our directors actually worked from 2PM until 10AM this morning installing equipment and testing the production line. This is good news for AvP, for Warzone and for all of our clients. We are running with the intention of creating at least 150 copies of AvP a day, with possibly more.
6. Are we shipping to Australia?
Yes, there are 149 backers in Australia. We are shipping to them whenever they come up in our stack of orders.
7. Are we leaving (x) until last so that we can ship Wave 1 and Wave 2 together to save money?
No. At least, not intentionally. Sure, we are a business and we would like to save money; but that is not our key driver. We made a statement a few weeks ago, saying that if we could ship Wave 1 and Wave 2 together, we would. That still applies, but we are not holding back the shipment, or purposely delaying it to do that. The fundamental point there is that we need to ship the Kickstarter Wave 1 to make sales of the Boxed Set.
8. Are we going out of business, hence the slow production rate?
Not at all. We have invested in too many staff and too much equipment recently for that to be the case. Sure, we are cutting it fine, but only so that we can get the Kickstarter shipped out as fast as possible. Please understand that the stage we are at is usually referred to as the 'stocking up' period. Most companies would do this behind closed doors, build up a huge stock-holding and then ship it all out at once. That is the case, I am sure, for any of the other licensed games that have been released recently. We are aware that we made a mistake trying to ship it all piecemeal and we are now trying to rectify that with the decision to ship the USA products with Ninja Division and to sign them up as our North American publisher.
Hind-sight is 20:20, as they say.
If you do spot somewhere that this kind of rumour is being spread, we would be very interested in where the source is. Please advise us to where you heard this. We are keen to deal with the source of that particular rumour.
9. Why didn't you answer my question?
Apologies, that's not intentional, we must have missed it. Please can you list it below and we will do our best to answer as soon as we can. Please also be aware that some questions are more appropriate for private email. If you have a customer complaint/query, please email sales@prodosgames.com, where he will forward you to the right place.
10. Why will you not give refunds?
Simply put, the money pledged on Kickstarter is used by us as an investment. We have enough capital to ship your copies and continue the production of the game. We have spoken to Kickstarter and our right to refuse a refund is equal to the right to request one. The fact we have begun shipping and that we are sharing these updates is enough to prove we have every intention to provide every backer with the products we promised (with reasonable, aesthetic changes).
11. The Kickstarter is still down, will it ever go back up?
We're aware of that and yes, we hope for the Kickstarter to go back up eventually. We would imagine that, at the earliest, this will be when the project is completed and all items are approved. We are in discussion with Fox regarding it, as it would open the doors again and get rid of the nasty suggestion of 'IP Dispute' that is factually incorrect.
12. Will Prodos Games be holding another open day soon?
Yes, we are intending to run an Open Day in Leamington Spa soon. We will be communicating with Crusaders about their assistance with this and would invite all fans of Prodos Games to attend. This may or may not be in our offices. We will see!
Gen Con is next week, don’t forget we will be in booth 1943 with our US partner Ninja Division. We will be handing out AvP boxes to North American backers that come to the booth. Please bring a printout copy of your pledge manager with you to speed up the process.
Shipping to all non-North and South American backers continues from our Poland facility.
We are awaiting word back from Fox on the physical approval of the Wave 2 packaged products.
Thanks again all and please accept my apologies for the delay in getting this communication to you.
Jim Prodosgames
21 hrs · Edited
This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for Friday August 7, 2015
We are back from a very successful trip to Gencon with our US partners at Ninja Division; I handed out almost 100 AvP boxes to happy backers and had a bunch of great conversations with them about AvP as well. It was awesome meeting everyone who could come to Gencon to pick up their AvP boxes.
Also for anyone that picked up their AvP boxes at Gencon please note you will receive a shipping email as we add you to the system for receiving your boxes. This is just how the system works.
Ninja Division will proceed with shipping to North and South American backers next week.
We are still shipping to backers in the rest of the world, however things are slow going. This is due to packaging changes being make to the core box due to damages caused during shipping. The cards will now be located in the brown interior box with the miniatures. Shipping is also slow because we have half our staff on scheduled vacations. We are legally bound to give them their vacations that were schedules and approved at the beginning of the year.
Wave 2 approval is still pending due to a slight redesign of the packaging that needs to be done, more news when we have it.
More and more we see people asking about seeing the final models for Wave 2, we will show them as soon as the packaging is approved.
Cheers,
Prodos Games LTD
That's really helpful, can I ask which Facebook page it is one please? I haven't seen it on the Prodos Games or the open AvP one. Do I presume it's the closed AvP Facebook page?
I would have been helpful if it had actually gone to backers.
cincydooley wrote: Hardly a blind fanboy. Hardly a fanboy at all, in fact.
I think the bitching and moaning has reached a fever pitch and I think it's sad and pathetic, especially since much of it is predicated on blatant mistruths.
Just pointing out I'm not a fanboy... but I do like to play devils advocate a lot. ^_^
PomWallaby wrote: How is any UK backer reasonably expected to collect from GenCon? I paid to have it shipped to me, I shouldn't have to chase after the few copies going at cons. Also, whilst Prodos is active on FB (and twitter) there are plenty of unanswered posts and frustrated backers.
To be fair UK backers had access to AvP at Cons before US backers. Although I do understand that you feel you shouldn't have to go pick them up, that however is a choice. It was available sooner and the choice was to wait for it delivered. Granted if you weren't going to any of those cons the given choice is to wait. There will always be frustrated backers unfortunately. I do find it amusing when I compare things like AvP to Kingdom Death though, always interesting to see how fan bases are different. As for the questions, many questions have been answered it is just that people don't like the answers.
Big Jim wrote: However, for me I see a lack of direct communication with backers, I'm unable to contact Prodos as their UK phone line doesn't work, they are not responding to polite and civil e-mails and they are not responding to either polite or hostile messages on their Facebook page.
What email are you using, many people have been using the wrong email honestly. In fact even I initially used the wrong email when emailing to pick up AvP at GenCon. Other than that I've had no issues at other emails with them, although responses are about 1-2 weeks out. It probably depends on what is considered a polite and civil email, just because an email is polite and civil but contains information about taking them court or saying they are misleading, doesn't mean someone would probably respond. I'm not saying your emails said that, it was just an example that one perons polite and civil doesn't necessarily match up to another person's perception.
Hardly a blind fanboy. Hardly a fanboy at all, in fact.
I call what I see.
I think the bitching and moaning has reached a fever pitch and I think it's sad and pathetic, especially since much of it is predicated on blatant mistruths.
I rest my case.
"Prodos hasn't been communicative with customers." Lie. Yes they have. They're regularly posting on the FB group.
Dude, kid, fanboy ... if I am forced to join a social media thing I give a rat's ass about and then join a closed wannabe elite club when there is a way for them to communicate ... then they may not be silent, they just decide, they don't want to share the info with us frakking backers - i.e. not communicating. You can whine and bitch and be as pathetic all you want, that is a cold hard fact.
"But it doesn't have anything to do with fulfillment". Lie. On Aug 7 they made a post that details when wave 1 will be shipping to NA backers, as well as the status of shipping for Euro backers as well as information on wave 2.
And when ever was a time given by Prodos any good? Wait, when was it planned? Oh, yeah, somewhere 2014. True, not everything is solely their fault, but I see a glint of fanboyance with you.
"Prodos isn't trying to get anyone that backed the KS product." Lie. As a single concrete example, they air shipped 100 copies to gencon for backers to pick up.
So you expect everybody to fly to the US, pay addmitance, fly back home, maybe hotel inbetween not to mention food to get their game? Ah, the life of a partially blind fanboy, it must be grand.
Odd, I get spam from FB not even being there (yeah, I know, just because it says FB doesn't mean, it actually is) but absolutely none from Dakka.
Mhmhmh, odd odd odd ...
OK, another Saturdsay, another build report. This time: The Infants. Detailwise they are, as often mentioned, great. Somehow this resin is pretty rubbery - great if you bend it a litle, doesn't snap right off but a pain in the butt when trying to fixate it to shave off excess. I'm taking that back. Partly partly. Some minis are softer than others, guess it depends on the exact mixture. Excess is mostly found on the tails, but managleable. Again I have to shave the pegs to fit their corresponding holes. Gotta be really careful about it. Taking off the mold injections on the feet can be a bit tricky but doable, though you might find some acesss between the toes. Worst idea designwise are the injection parts right in the palms. Not wanting to break up the design is a fine choise, but getting those out without slicing a claw off is a real bummer - one of mine has lost a claw, it went flying and now I'll have to rebuild a claw with greenstuff. Will be fiddely, but it can be done.
As with the marines, your typical boardgame nerd may have a hard time but will manage. For the casual gamer just another part he/she will give up on it.
Moses Bad wrote: As with the marines, your typical boardgame nerd may have a hard time but will manage. For the casual gamer just another part he/she will give up on it.
In my experience "typical boardgame nerds" are pretty much the same as "casual gamers". The fact that the majority of boardgames require little to no assembly allows them to play at their leisure without investing too much time and effort.
Most "boardgame nerds" will pass on this game because it is obviously not a true boardgame, it is a simplified miniatures game being marketed as a boardgame, either to fulfill some sort of contractual obligation or to mislead consumers into thinking it is something it is not.
Moses Bad wrote: Aw, c'mon.
What are true boardgames then? Only three come to mind and none have nice miniatures, only pretty simple pawns - Ludo, Chess and Checkers.
Better question would be "How many people consider AvP to be a board game."
I know I don't.
If I have to buy tools and adhesive to properly assemble the components of a game, I consider that game to be more of a hobby game (wargame or miniatures game) and not a board game.
Well, I say, it has a board, it's a board game, no matter how complicated to set up. Remember Mouse Trap and other games in it's keel? Board games. And the rules can be as illogical as the bible, still a board game. Only difference, the people it appeals to and the what I call casual gamer will not be. Too complicated rules, too much fiddely diddely. Whereas a lot of people don't care for the rules or the board, they just wanted minis to use for own purposes.
Result, it's a poor board game when it gets to playability (and this includes what I've heard of the rules and what I know myself of the fiddely diddely of the minis), but it's a board game.
I have a love/hate relationship with this thread.
I'm gonna try and forget about things for August, see if a box turns up and if Prodos decides to sent backers an official update. I've ordered the Terminator Miniature Game so that should keep me plenty occupied.
I'm not "worried" about AVP (provided the latest estimates aren't WAY off or things implode) as Kingdom Death, Journey Wrath of Demons and Rum and Bones may all arrive in the meantime. I like to think I'm backing fewer projects nowadays!
Off topic, Marrow (Journey Wrath of Demons) seemed a bit of a gamble on an unknown company but they've been pretty cool throughout. I'd back them and Kingdom Death again if funds allow. Cmon projects tend to be hit or miss depending on the game.
Moses Bad wrote: Well, I say, it has a board, it's a board game, no matter how complicated to set up.
Remember Mouse Trap and other games in it's keel? Board games.
And the rules can be as illogical as the bible, still a board game.
Only difference, the people it appeals to and the what I call casual gamer will not be. Too complicated rules, too much fiddely diddely.
Whereas a lot of people don't care for the rules or the board, they just wanted minis to use for own purposes.
Result, it's a poor board game when it gets to playability (and this includes what I've heard of the rules and what I know myself of the fiddely diddely of the minis), but it's a board game.
Technically speaking it is a board game, simply because it is played on a board, but then, technically speaking, so are games played on "boards" decorated with terrain, like 40K.
Last time I checked games like Mouse Trap didn't require glue or any other tools to assemble.
Look at Mantic's Mars Attacks The Miniatures game. The out of the box components of that game essentially amount to a board game, yet they chose to call it a miniatures game. Why?
My point is that, if this were intended to be a board game marketed toward the board game crowd, and not a miniatures games being labeled as a board game, the design choices would have been a lot different.
Does 40K come with a board? No. Does AvP come with a board? Yes. C'mon, if you want to mince every single word, just because you can't stand being corrected, you can call roulette a board game. My parents had it, with a board. Usually not, sometimes did. They had glitches, like many things with moving parts - but, that's rather on a case to case basis.
Because they wanted to? Ask them, not me. I could argue, as long as you don't need a measure, it's a board game - but then classic BT would be a board game just as well.
You really want to go and question Prodos' decissions? After all these months? It's labeled a board game. The target audience is board gamers. They missed that audience so far, I can't even say how far.
But, according to you, there is only one viewpoint that is valid and that just has to be yours. Fine. Have a nice day.
Moses Bad wrote: Does 40K come with a board? No. Does AvP come with a board? Yes.
C'mon, if you want to mince every single word, just because you can't stand being corrected, you can call roulette a board game. My parents had it, with a board.
Usually not, sometimes did. They had glitches, like many things with moving parts - but, that's rather on a case to case basis.
Because they wanted to? Ask them, not me.
I could argue, as long as you don't need a measure, it's a board game - but then classic BT would be a board game just as well.
You really want to go and question Prodos' decissions? After all these months?
It's labeled a board game. The target audience is board gamers. They missed that audience so far, I can't even say how far.
But, according to you, there is only one viewpoint that is valid and that just has to be yours.
Fine. Have a nice day.
I don't mind being corrected, if I was misrepresenting a fact, but I have only been presenting my point of view on what makes a board game and how typical board gamers will respond to games like AvP. In other words my opinion on the matter.
If you don't like it, fine, but just because I counter your opinion with my own opinion doesn't mean mine is the only valid opinion, it just means I disagree with yours which seems to be what you really have a problem with.
AvP is what is known as a Miniatures Board game or Board game with miniatures, which is different than a Board Game. It does play on a game board, but it also isn't strictly confined to simply just a board. It is more a Miniatures Board game because the pieces are multi-pieced that need to be assembled and are typically a higher quality detailed miniature than board games.
Board Games are usually board games or more closely CMoN style games that are playable straight out of the box, without the need to clean and assemble miniatures.
There are people that cross into both categories but there are people that also stay strictly within their categories as well. It is an interesting market with varied opinions, compared to standard Board games (with no miniatures).
Sheep wrote: It wAs posted as a fb update last time, they edited the language and posted it out as an email to every backer, not just those on the closed fb page.
Thanks for taking the time to post it, don't mind the short response mate.
The closed group that literally anyone can join? That one?
Read the thread. Don't post the same stuff over again. Pretty simple stuff.
Sheep wrote: It wAs posted as a fb update last time, they edited the language and posted it out as an email to every backer, not just those on the closed fb page.
Thanks for taking the time to post it, don't mind the short response mate.
The closed group that literally anyone can join? That one?
Read the thread. Don't post the same stuff over again. Pretty simple stuff.
I'm not going to sign up to Facebook so I can't join.
As long as their sharing the info outside of this I don't mind. but if they have two open Facebook pages, it doesn't make sense to me that they would only interact with people via the closed one and be a bit rubbish interacting with people in the other 2.
Happy we've got an update I would have liked a progress report on how many units have been shipped ( just to see if it's gone down again )
or an update on their actual production capacity, didn't they say when they made the KS version available to non backers it was because they had to print a minimum x thousand copy's at a time.
If that's the case and the minis are all done(again like they have Said before) what's the hold up in production?
If about 600 were shipped as of 25th July and they were aiming to produce 150 boxes a day shouldn't all the remaining boxes be made for us reminding 2093 backers? ( I would have thought the last update would have been a big pic of all the games ready to go and how many they can post each day given they have a half their staff off)
This might be a little "out of date". Trudged through my old emails to find this from August 2014.
"2. As we are manufacturing a Kickstarter Exclusive Game, we have to make a minimum of 5000 units (this is the minimum amount to meet the next bracket for printing costs).
After checking our Kickstarter numbers, we will not meet even half of this number, meaning we would be warehousing over 2500 unused games that won't be available once we start shipping to backers. Warehousing any product has a huge cost implication. This is why we made the business decision to sell these remaining units using the same offer as Kickstarter and keep things fair. It also made business sense for us to meet the demands of folks who did unfortunately miss the Kickstarter. These 5000 copies represent a collectable, Special Edition version of the game as promised and once they are gone, will not be available again.
This goes for the Predator Berserker (both opaque and clear cast) model too.
Please bear in mind that the quantities listed on our website are there simply so that we do not sell out of a particular pledge level. Until the end of October, we will continue to sell them and then once we reach that time, we will stop selling them.
Any remaining copies will be donated to charity and distributed to retailers to use as demo copies. We read a comment on our forum suggesting we were making 8000 copies available, which is simply not the case!"
I think 5000 boxes were originally being produced with less than 2500 going to kickstarter backers. (I'm curious how many of the remaining 2500+ copies became demo copies or raised money for charity). A lot can happen in a year though and I don't know if the intended print run has changed.
Interestingly I never thought meeting " the demands of folks who did unfortunately miss the Kickstarter" meant pushing the KS exclusive version into general retail via the distribution network.
It was bad enough the went back on KS exclusive and sold it to those poor unfortunate souls who missed the KS via their own webstore. I guess many of those poor souls really needed to see it in their FLGS or favorite webstore to feel they were treated fairly.
And meanwhile the majority of KS backers wish they could be treated as fairly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Latest North Star newsletter says they have AvP back in stock. As in they had some, sold out, and have been restocked.
19th July update,
"We are not selling to retailers at the moment for 4-6 weeks, whilst we fulfil KS shipments"
Perhaps the restock was dispatched before July 19th. Either way, if backers fall behind retail restocks in priority, I'll let people draw their own conclusions.
PomWallaby wrote: 19th July update, "We are not selling to retailers at the moment for 4-6 weeks, whilst we fulfil KS shipments" Perhaps the restock was dispatched before July 19th. Either way, if backers fall behind retail restocks in priority, I'll let people draw their own conclusions.
Of course those restocks were payd in January or February, no worries. Of course it's possible, they have their HQ in orbit, speeding with enough km/h to, according to Einstein, have allready passed those weeks. It's just us chumps down on earth who live by normal space-time who don't get it. Just remember, Prodos is communicative, truthfull, friendly, determinded to fulfill to backers and all around good and nice guys who can't do no wrong. End of sarcasm.
November 2014,
"The Board Game will ship to retailers at the same time as Kickstarter backers. This might mean that you get your copy a few days before your FLGS or perhaps a few days after, but we intend to make sure wherever we can that Kickstarter backers get theirs first."
Happy that Ninja Division are handling things across the pond. IMO they did a good job shipping SDE.
PomWallaby wrote: November 2014,
"The Board Game will ship to retailers at the same time as Kickstarter backers. This might mean that you get your copy a few days before your FLGS or perhaps a few days after, but we intend to make sure wherever we can that Kickstarter backers get theirs first."
Shipping re-stock to retailers before backers get theirs is a bit different though...
The fact they are already restocking retailers well before KS backers have their stuff shipping seems to negate that 'at the same time' phrase. For feths sake, they are fulfilling new orders from their OWN damned web store before fulfilling KS backers.
PomWallaby wrote: November 2014,
"The Board Game will ship to retailers at the same time as Kickstarter backers. This might mean that you get your copy a few days before your FLGS or perhaps a few days after, but we intend to make sure wherever we can that Kickstarter backers get theirs first."
Happy that Ninja Division are handling things across the pond. IMO they did a good job shipping SDE.
A few days would have been much better, than a few months... hopefully Ninja Division are able to get the North American ball rolling...
I 'think' Swatters is a bit larger scale though, with fire team bases and not single figures for the most part.
I may be wrong though...
On Board Game Geek there are free rules for a game called 'Bug Hunt' based on the Aliens movies, and Victory Point Games has 'Forlorn Hope' which would be pretty good for these figures (you would have to use tiles made for the larger scale figures as opposed to the map the game comes with.
Two Hour Wargames has rules that would work with the figures as well. There are more rules sets out there too.
angelofvengeance wrote: In fairness, Marines are pretty squishy in pretty much all the fluff lol. Not sure what you're expecting Alex.
Does anyone know what Prodos are like FAQs and Errata-wise? Good/bad?
I was expecting a game where the Marine player isn't out of the game by turn 2 and has to sit there watching the Alien and Pred players having fun.
Any playthroughs I've seen have had the Marine player out of the game before he can really do anything.
It might be fluffy, but makes for a poor game experience.
I will certainly give the RAW a try, but am looking at other options too.
I think things can be modded to work. I'm thinking one pred not three for example. I also think that there is great potential for some interesting match ups. I can see a scenario where the pred needs to "save" the marines, so that he can get the trophy's he needs to get his objective. All in all, humans are at a disadvantage here, it is a horror based action game after all. I wouldn't like to be out in the first couple rounds, but at the same time, its not realistic to go toe to toe with xeno's. I really want to try the rules and scenarios first, before I start making changes. Every new rule set takes a while to get the hang of, so I'm not too fussed by the play throughs. Its obvious that for most of them its their first time through it. I'd like to see some veterans do a play through, with insightful tips and advice on game play. I can see the appeal of Angry Joe, but its not my cup of tea. I work with trades guys and play in a rock band, and still found his cursing to be excessive. I'm also pretty sure those fellas were feeling no pain, Not to take anything away from it, there was definitely some issues with the rules and the layout is terrible. Speaking of which, does anyone have a decent rules reference?
Dark Severance wrote: To be fair UK backers had access to AvP at Cons before US backers. Although I do understand that you feel you shouldn't have to go pick them up, that however is a choice. It was available sooner and the choice was to wait for it delivered. Granted if you weren't going to any of those cons the given choice is to wait.
It isn't much of a choice at all, to be fair. I dropped £150+ onto AvP, why should I then pay another £75 in transport costs to travel from Manchester down to London, then other costs AND travel time to pick up a game that I paid for two years ago? It's unreasonable of Prodos to ship out restocks, while people who paid to get this whole idea off the ground in the first place, are left waiting for their stuff.
I managed to get a refund of my money earlier this year from Paypal, I contacted Prodos via facebook, kickstarter, e-mail and I never got anything back. I told them about my Paypal action, so I gave them chance and I still didn't get anything. Everything about Prodos screams dodgy as hell.
stubacca wrote: To be fair UK backers had access to AvP at Cons before US backers.
Agreed, in fact this was the 1st time in several years I didn't go to Expo. 700 Uk backers after only 50 copies, I didn't fancy my chances. A friend went but I didn't want him put out lugging the box around. Ultimately I thought picking up from Expo was a bit of a gimmick as we were expecting the game to be dispatched shortly after.
stubacca wrote: To be fair UK backers had access to AvP at Cons before US backers.
Agreed, in fact this was the 1st time in several years I didn't go to Expo. 700 Uk backers after only 50 copies, I didn't fancy my chances. A friend went but I didn't want him put out lugging the box around. Ultimately I thought picking up from Expo was a bit of a gimmick as we were expecting the game to be dispatched shortly after.
ah, man. I derped and misquoted you by accident, sorry!
Some dude earlier said it was a choice that UK backers didn't pick it up at a con but, as you said, 700 compared to 50 + the expense of getting down to London. It wasn't much of a choice
stubacca wrote: To be fair UK backers had access to AvP at Cons before US backers.
Agreed, in fact this was the 1st time in several years I didn't go to Expo. 700 Uk backers after only 50 copies, I didn't fancy my chances. A friend went but I didn't want him put out lugging the box around. Ultimately I thought picking up from Expo was a bit of a gimmick as we were expecting the game to be dispatched shortly after.
ah, man. I derped and misquoted you by accident, sorry!
Some dude earlier said it was a choice that UK backers didn't pick it up at a con but, as you said, 700 compared to 50 + the expense of getting down to London. It wasn't much of a choice
Anybody mad enough to travel to Expo specifically to pick up their game was simply crazy, and likely wasted their journey. I got there 10 minutes after the place opened on the Saturday and I was lucky enough to pick up box number 50. The queue of disappointed backers behind me was 20 deep, and by all accounts Prodos spent most of the day turning people away.
Big Jim wrote: Well I have received a shipping notification from Prodos for my Kickstarter order. Let see if it's as swift as buying direct from them.
More than happy to eat humble pie as and when it arrives.
Although I have updated my complaint with his, until this Kickstarter is actually delivered in full, it'll remain open as a watching brief.
So the trend for backers so far is to kick up a fuss and make themselves an pain in the bum and they will send stuff out to keep the peace ...while everyone else .... hope you get your stuff .
Big Jim wrote: Well I have received a shipping notification from Prodos for my Kickstarter order. Let see if it's as swift as buying direct from them.
More than happy to eat humble pie as and when it arrives.
Although I have updated my complaint with his, until this Kickstarter is actually delivered in full, it'll remain open as a watching brief.
So the trend for backers so far is to kick up a fuss and make themselves an pain in the bum and they will send stuff out to keep the peace ...while everyone else .... hope you get your stuff .
That really is taking conspiracy theory to an extreme.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW - lots of reports of shipping notifications today and yesterday throughout Europe but also including in the US, and even as far afield as NZ It does appear that they are finally getting themselves organised.
Glad to hear about the shipping notifications going out. I would really love to get one as well. Although, I do know that living in Canada puts me pretty low on their priority list.
CptJake wrote: Being a backer puts you pretty low on their priority list.
Fair enough I'm heading to Florida for a couple of weeks mid September so I would really like to have it before then, just so I don't have to worry about it whilst on vacation.
Those do look nice. I think the plastic bases from Sedition Wars would be really good for this game too. And since you can pick up copies dirt cheap you get the bases at a very reasonable price. You may be able to use the tiles for AVP as well.
CptJake wrote: Those do look nice. I think the plastic bases from Sedition Wars would be really good for this game too. And since you can pick up copies dirt cheap you get the bases at a very reasonable price. You may be able to use the tiles for AVP as well.
I thought the same. They do look good, but I'll admit I simply don't have the patience to sculpt any of the "alien creep" on them.
If you're not concerned with that, I think they'll be great!
My brother was over last night and was asking where the cocooned bodies were....I may have to figure that out as an objective or something. Maybe a 40mm with a cocooned body and an alien egg in front of it?
I would probably use a square base. It would fit better up against 3D walls or tile edges (and be different from round bases with playable figures on them).
Maybe get a couple short lengths of plastruct I-Beam in a size you think appropriate, set a couple two inch or so lengths up from the base, add a piece of plastic card between them as a base for your green stuff 'alien weirdness' with a spare head and maybe an arm sticking out. Egg(s) in front would make it look pretty cool.
Grumpae wrote: Glad to hear about the shipping notifications going out. I would really love to get one as well. Although, I do know that living in Canada puts me pretty low on their priority list.
if I understand things correctly, all the Americas stuff has been shipped to Ninja Division (Soda Pop) who are distributing from the US, so your wait shouldn't be too long now - they have something like 4-500 to send out. At least it's already on the right side of the pond.
Automatically Appended Next Post: re bases - a lot of backers have gone with the Sulaco, Arc and Hive tiles from Fenris Games. They seem pretty much a perfect match.
IMHO, the SW bases, while cool, are not quite the right design - they look too high tech (more Infinity than grungy mining/research station)
The environmental effects and door mechanics are junk, Marines die too easily, Preds are waaaayyyy OP, and so on and so on...
Seriously considering getting Genesha Games' "Swatters" ruleset to play this with. Sounds miles better while being 10x less complicated.
Age of Sigmar, perhaps?
One could do worse...
I am very seriously thinking of adapting the core AoS engine to the various miniature collections that have minis I like, but gakky rules that I can't stand. This way, I can just focus on the things that matter, rather than nonsense and minutiae. Not Heavy Gear comes to mind, along with the stalled Not Car Wars project I was fiddling with. Not Sedition Wars, too.
I wonder if GW would consider Open Sourcing or Licensing the AoS engine to other OEMs, like WotC did with d20 OGL. Hmm...
Alpharius wrote: You wonder if GW would...open source something?
You don't *really* wonder that, do you?
... or License.
The AoS engine is 2 pages (subtracting the magical Terrain, extra deployment and Sudden Death options), and easily adapted. As a board game engine, it does basically everything you need. Then, tack on the 2 pages of AvP stuff. Or Car Wars stuff. Or whatever. Being forced to tighten to the true core is a good thing.
CptJake wrote: Those do look nice. I think the plastic bases from Sedition Wars would be really good for this game too. And since you can pick up copies dirt cheap you get the bases at a very reasonable price. You may be able to use the tiles for AVP as well.
I don't think i could stand to use the sedition wars bases even though i have 100+ of them .the painful memory of what could of been coupled with the rubbish experience of the avp kickstarter would be too much ! fenris for me I've got some of the larger bases for vehicles and they are great quality.
Alpharius wrote: You wonder if GW would...open source something?
You don't *really* wonder that, do you?
... or License.
The AoS engine is 2 pages (subtracting the magical Terrain, extra deployment and Sudden Death options), and easily adapted. As a board game engine, it does basically everything you need. Then, tack on the 2 pages of AvP stuff. Or Car Wars stuff. Or whatever. Being forced to tighten to the true core is a good thing.
GW saying, ever, to basically play their games with other people's models?
That is so far from their current business model and stated goals to be...impossible!
Alpharius wrote: You wonder if GW would...open source something?
You don't *really* wonder that, do you?
... or License.
The AoS engine is 2 pages (subtracting the magical Terrain, extra deployment and Sudden Death options), and easily adapted. As a board game engine, it does basically everything you need. Then, tack on the 2 pages of AvP stuff. Or Car Wars stuff. Or whatever. Being forced to tighten to the true core is a good thing.
GW saying, ever, to basically play their games with other people's models?
That is so far from their current business model and stated goals to be...impossible!
GW licenses their IP all the time, so I don't see why they wouldn't take a few bucks for the generic "Age of X". After all, it wouldn't be Warhammer or Sigmar or any of that IP. Just the engine that defines model action on the tabletop / board.
Alpharius wrote: Licensing their IP vs. 'Play Our Game But Don't Buy Our Models'?
Yeah...no.
It is so far fetched that it seems...slightly trollish.
Are you deliberately choosing confuse things? I will take one last stab at explaining / clarifying:
It's not "playing their game", because it's a GENERIC ENGINE that is adapted to whatever IP is appropriate, in the same way that FFG's "flight path" engine is used (licensed) for (WizKids) Star Trek, (Wings of Glory) WW1 dogfighting, and (WotC) D&D Dragons in addition to Star Wars. None of the flight path licensees is playing Star Wars X-Wing or using any of the Star Wars universe IP. They are all using a version of FFG's Flight Path game engine IP. As a general engine, it could easily be adapted to Car Wars, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, BFG, or any other vehicle movement system.
GW licensing the "Age" engine for other skirmish boardgames would be great, due to the simplification and standardization.
As far as using other game systems for the rules, I'd throw in for using Savage Worlds/Rail Wars to handle the game. I have a box on preorder from my FLGS (supposed to be in on 9/17), and if the base game rules don't fit my fancy, I'll be converting it to SW.
Just read on the Prodos forum that we will need to watch our pledge managers again. Apparently when the wave two products receive approval they will be opening the pledge manager again. Heads up! I'm sure this will go smoothly and by the numbers...
... that is exactly what I was saying a few weeks back - rince and repeat for another round of available excuses, why they don't ship - stupid backers forgot to lock their PM.
By the looks of it, Prodos' management is so incredible stupid, they should run politics - no matter where you are, your politicians can't be any dumber than that.
Moses Bad wrote: ... that is exactly what I was saying a few weeks back - rince and repeat for another round of available excuses, why they don't ship - stupid backers forgot to lock their PM.
So the onus is on Prodos to ensure backers lock their PMs? Am I understanding you correctly?
Moses Bad wrote: ... that is exactly what I was saying a few weeks back - rince and repeat for another round of available excuses, why they don't ship - stupid backers forgot to lock their PM.
So the onus is on Prodos to ensure backers lock their PMs? Am I understanding you correctly?
If they keep reopening it without telling the backers, then yes.
:golfclap:
