cincydooley wrote: So the onus is on Prodos to ensure backers lock their PMs? Am I understanding you correctly?
Well, you tell me. After campaign, PM goes out - I lock it. Some time into the lies, they reopen just in case I want to throw more money at them - I lock it. Even more time into the decit they reopen it, in case I want to throw money at them now or, again, more - I lock it. For wave two, Prodos by now known as Barons of Munichhausen, reopen the PM, because maybe I've been lobotomized in the last two years (this is sort of a look into the future) and want to add more stuff - I have to lock it yet again.
Well, of course I know, Prodos can do no wrong in your eyes, all hail Prodos, frak us stupid backers to want what we paid for over a year ago whereas every Joe can go to their online shop and get it faster than the majority of sayd runts (i.e. backers).
BrookM wrote: If they keep reopening it without telling the backers, then yes.
That's the neat little trick. They did tell, what they didn't tell is, you have to close it again and again, instead of them closing it down after timeframe X. The burden of course is on us to ensure, Prodos is delivering what we paid for, you should know that and thank them on your knees!
They also have failed to deliver all the sculpts that Micro Art Studios contracted them to do for Wolsung, so now I'm stuck waiting for fulfillment of 2 KS' due to their lack of professionalism.
They were scheduled to deliver the final pieces last week, after "forgetting" (as MAS put it) to do the work in the first place, but MAS just sent out an update saying they're still waiting for product...
I've tried to be nice, but it's hard to conceive of Prodos as anything except dishonest and/or incompetent at this stage.
You have to understand, the legal need for holidays, the needed break after such a stressfull vacation. They didn't even have time to tell me, when this ASAP they want to ship my replacement cards will be. Maybe it should have read ASAPP - As soon as Prodos pleases.
A goody from their forums:
Look we totally understand that people are frustrated, but we will not tolerate cursing or calling us liars over and over again. We underestimated the approval process, but now have a handle on it and things are rolling forward.
Truth hurts, doesn't it? You know what's rolling as well, literally? Avalanches.
I am sorry our updates are not satisfactory for you. We are under legal obligation to give scheduled holidays to staff from the beginning of the year. We are still shipping, with the half staff we have in the warehouse.
Well, at least we know, they are poor at planning. Bet when they go to McDonalds, they need two hours to decide what to order. And are pissed, if the clerk takes longer than two minutes and want to yell at the manager.
As to being in shops that was a legal obligation with Fox in the contract. Any shipments still arriving are because the shop did not receive their full initial order when we shipped to them last month.
So you say, among a lot of other things - see? Didn't call them liars.
Ninja Division started shipping to US backers yesterday, and the staff back from holiday have been sending out boxes with renewed fervor.
A snail with fervor is still a snail.
Your rewards are coming just a little while longer.
The snail regard was aimed at their returned vacation staff - can't say anything about Ninja Division's speed or lack of it.
Hopefully, they will get this done soon.
Well, of course I know, Prodos can do no wrong in your eyes, all hail Prodos, frak us stupid backers to want what we paid for over a year ago whereas every Joe can go to their online shop and get it faster than the majority of sayd runts (i.e. backers).
Your strawmen continue to make me laugh. Thank you for that.
I paid for my product at the same time as every other backer. I closed my Pledge Manager when I was done with it. It was quite easy.
BrookM wrote: If they keep reopening it without telling the backers, then yes.
I completely agree. They've not done this to my knowledge. To be fair, I don't pour over every update they provide (I don't have the time or inclination), but I do know they've told us it will be reopening for Wave 2 items.
They did tell, what they didn't tell is, you have to close it again and again, instead of them closing it down after timeframe X.
So you assumed it would just close again automatically? Sounds like a deficiency on your part. Do you also expect your pants to pull themselves back up after you take a gak?
I don't know if I should laugh about you, or pity you. For now, I take your ignorant blind rants with humour. You just can't be helped, sad, but acceptable. Whatever you say, dude, whatever you say ...
No, I take it if they say "We will reopen it until date X" they close it as automatically as they opened it. Well, I guess they are just being malicious to us unreasonably wanting our stuff after months of lies backers. I assumed, If I don't change anything, it is all right, but it wasn't. But hey, this just has to be our fault, never ever any fault on Prodos, right? Hey, look, a Leprechaun ... aw, ain't he cute?
Well, of course I know, Prodos can do no wrong in your eyes, all hail Prodos, frak us stupid backers to want what we paid for over a year ago whereas every Joe can go to their online shop and get it faster than the majority of sayd runts (i.e. backers).
Your strawmen continue to make me laugh. Thank you for that.
I paid for my product at the same time as every other backer. I closed my Pledge Manager when I was done with it. It was quite easy.
BrookM wrote: If they keep reopening it without telling the backers, then yes.
I completely agree. They've not done this to my knowledge. To be fair, I don't pour over every update they provide (I don't have the time or inclination), but I do know they've told us it will be reopening for Wave 2 items.
They did tell, what they didn't tell is, you have to close it again and again, instead of them closing it down after timeframe X.
So you assumed it would just close again automatically? Sounds like a deficiency on your part. Do you also expect your pants to pull themselves back up after you take a gak?
When is the last time you checked your pledge manager? I had recieved no notice of it being reopened, and yet there it was, open. I do take the time to read the updates, every line, because its all the official communication that I have from them. There was no warning that they would reopen it prior to wave two being ready to ship. So yes it is annoying, and no, the onus should not be on us to check and see if its been reopened without notice. I have no issues with pulling my pants up, but if someone pulls them down (without being asked), they can fully expect a bloody nose in return.
Which ignorant, blind rants are those? There haven't been any.
No, I take it if they say "We will reopen it until date X" they close it as automatically as they opened it.
Well, I guess they are just being malicious to us unreasonably wanting our stuff after months of lies backers.
I assumed, If I don't change anything, it is all right, but it wasn't. But hey, this just has to be our fault, never ever any fault on Prodos, right?
Hey, look, a Leprechaun ... aw, ain't he cute?
Were your reading comprehension better, you'd have read that I agree, if they open it without informing the backers, than that's poor form. Alas, you either struggle with said comprehension, or you just skipped over it. Either way, it's still there, in black and white.
As I've said multiple times in the thread, Prodos has plenty of fault with this project. From the poor projections on time frames regarding licensing approvals (more understandable) to their, at times, poor communication (less understandable), there have been clear problems with the project. But they've been pretty open about them, and are still working to get product to backers (again, of which I am one).
Without the KS page being reopened (I don't know if it can be; maybe you, as the enlightened individual you are, can learn us about that), they've chosen to use Facebook as their primary method of information dissemination. Simply because you can't be bothered to look at Facebook is on you, not them. It's not a perfect way to do it, but it's not as if they're non-communicative.
You seem to have fun calling me a "Prodos Apologist," and that's fine. I'm not. I own exactly zero of their other products, and most likely will not back another KS run by them. So, in effect, you're wrong. You clearly think you're right, and very clever, so I'll let you continue to think that. Enjoy.
It's not simply a matter of "not bothering to look at Facebook" though, considering some of this information is being disclosed via a closed Facebook group that requires a Facebook account to access.
I have no interest in making a Facebook account for a variety of reasons. You would think they could just email all the backers seeing as they have everyone's email address, as that would eliminate going through a 3rd party service and guarantee every backer sees any relevant information that is provided.
I have no interest in making a Facebook account for a variety of reasons. You would think they could just email all the backers seeing as they have everyone's email address, as that would eliminate going through a 3rd party service and guarantee every backer sees any relevant information that is provided.
I agree it's an inelegant solution. I don't know why they can't go through email (no idea if they have a colated list of user emails, Etc), nor do I know if they're able to reopen the KS page (though I'm hoping Mr. Moses, in his infinite wisdom, can tell us!).
Ideally, we'd be getting these updates via KS. But we aren't.
Regardless, the major notion I've scoffed at here is that they're not making an effort to communicate with backers or deliver product. I posit they're Doing both, and can easily substatiate that claim.
Are they doing it as well as they could be? Nope. But to claim either of those things, as many people here have, is an outright falsehood.
Were your reading comprehension better, you'd have read that I agree, if they open it without informing the backers, than that's poor form. Alas, you either struggle with said comprehension, or you just skipped over it. Either way, it's still there, in black and white.
As I've said multiple times in the thread, Prodos has plenty of fault with this project. From the poor projections on time frames regarding licensing approvals (more understandable) to their, at times, poor communication (less understandable), there have been clear problems with the project. But they've been pretty open about them, and are still working to get product to backers (again, of which I am one).
Without the KS page being reopened (I don't know if it can be; maybe you, as the enlightened individual you are, can learn us about that), they've chosen to use Facebook as their primary method of information dissemination. Simply because you can't be bothered to look at Facebook is on you, not them. It's not a perfect way to do it, but it's not as if they're non-communicative.
You seem to have fun calling me a "Prodos Apologist," and that's fine. I'm not. I own exactly zero of their other products, and most likely will not back another KS run by them. So, in effect, you're wrong. You clearly think you're right, and very clever, so I'll let you continue to think that. Enjoy
You complain about my comprehension? Uhm, yeah, right, you yourself.
Aber danke, sollen wir vielleicht in meiner Muttersprache weitermachen? Wieviel verstehst du dann davon, mh?
And for those, not speaking German (so nobody thinks I'm insulting anyone):
But thanks, shall we continue in my mothertongue? How much would you understand then, mh?
Again, just for you and your incredible comprehension skills: They said they open, they said no thing of us having to close again.
If you just skip it, well, doesn't change I wrote it.
Got it? Nice. So, now why do I label you as a fanboy?
If you haven't understood it by now, you never will, so please forgive if I don't keep trying.
Ah, sarcasm, the nicer form of insults. Say, is that all you've got?
As many people have told you before, there are some, them, me, others, that don't use FB - and since Prodos HAS the channel to mail backers, it's just ignorant of them, as it is of you, to ignore what has been repeatetly written to you.
But it surely isn't your fault, you just chose to ignore it, it's my job to tell you again and again and again. Oh, you surely think you're very clever and I let you continue to do that.
No, not fun, naked truth or differently put, the truth that is not yours and therefore doesn't exist for you.
Have a nice day.
while it pains me to defend Prodos, I feel it should be pointed out that at absolutely NO POINT during the project have Prodos said they NEED your pledge manager closed before they can ship you wave 1 product. Quite the opposite, they've made it very clear a number of times that they would simply ship whatever wave 1 boxsets you've ordered anyway. The point of closing it was to ensure that if you'd upped your number of boxsets (or added a second pledge) that would definitely be saved and so you'd be shipped the wave 1 component for that. Not closing it, won't prevent them from sending your pledge as it stands anyway.
They've come up with a pile of excuses for being late, but pledges being open has never ever been one of them.
To get back on criticising them for a second, regarding communications - they have ALL of our emails in the pledge manager, so if they could be bothered to send an update to every single backer no matter what route taken, rather than hide occasional updates on a closed Facebook group, they could choose to mass mail every single one of us.
Oh and one last point - we know that despite them saying weeks ago that they wouldn't be taking more orders from third party retailers until KS backers were serviced, they have indeed been doing so. We had thought that those stores getting restocks had simply placed their orders before Prodos locked it down, but today a UK store admitted (on Facebook) that he was offered a restock by Prodos staff only yesterday. Personally I don't mind that Prodos are restocking stores - they clearly need to generate cashflow, but I do mind that they have lied about it to backers. That's a(nother) breach of trust.
ah yes - you're right, though it was my impression (correct or not) that they were saying 4-6 weeks because that was the length of time they expected to take to deal with the backer pledges.
If there were just a few dregs of backers left, and they were getting to them quickly, it'd probably be palatable, but bar a small influx of a dozen or so backers reporting getting shipping notices this week, all the evidence suggests that a large number still have nothing.
Having shipped out is, again addmiting, all they can do on their part. Now if only they'd manage to answer mails in a week or less. Frankly, I can't say if I received a shipping notice but doubt it. As far as I can recall, I was told by Michael (Michal? Geez, not sure) they'd ship, as soon as they'd have my name and address - which in fact they did at the time he wrote that, but I gave it to them again. Given, 1900+ confirmations take their time and since they are no logistics company it's doubtful, they invested in that sort of software. But it would come in dang handy on their part, because it would in the end sooth a lot of people knowing, their stuff is on it's way instead waiting and wondering.
biggusdoggus wrote: while it pains me to defend Prodos, I feel it should be pointed out that at absolutely NO POINT during the project have Prodos said they NEED your pledge manager closed before they can ship you wave 1 product.
I beg to differ.
16 May
Prodos KS Message wrote:9. Pledge manager changes and address update. By Friday we'll have an update for you with instruction how to do changes in the PM, postal address update and locking the PM. PLEASE make sure that you have done final alternations to your pledge, including the updated postal address by 31st of May. IT will affect the shipping date if the pledge manager is not locked.
They implied it or stated it a couple of other times too.
yeah,
To be absolutely fair to Prodos, we need to remember they are selling copies via retailers all over the world!
Probably because they had a contract with fox... it's not Prodos fault this is happening.
To be absolutely fair to Prodos, we need to remember they are sending retailers their second shipments.
Again probably because Fox really hates Kickstarter... it's not Prodos fault this is happening.
To be absolutely fair to Prodos, we need to remember they are selling copies online now and shipping them out within 5 days.
Again probably because they had a contract with fox... I mean Fox probably held a gun to their head and said 'make money bitchs'
it's not Prodos fault this is happening.
I mean Prodos just used our cash to bank roll their project and now their making money selling it.. what have we got to complain about?
Nothing.
If there was something to complain about its Fox's fault.
Just wait...
It will be with you sometime soon. or never.
But you should all totally give them more money while you wait!!
That way they can make more Aliens and more Predators to send to retail shops.
Ninja Division is a great company in my experience. SDE fulfillment went pretty much smooth as silk and I've heard good things about the NAS project they did.
The only possible issue I can see with using Ninja Division is if you get hosed up product (I've seen folks report missing items for example). We don't know if Ninja Division will be able to address those types of issues or if we have to go through Prodos. I suspect the latter.
biggusdoggus wrote: while it pains me to defend Prodos, I feel it should be pointed out that at absolutely NO POINT during the project have Prodos said they NEED your pledge manager closed before they can ship you wave 1 product.
I beg to differ.
16 May
Prodos KS Message wrote:9. Pledge manager changes and address update. By Friday we'll have an update for you with instruction how to do changes in the PM, postal address update and locking the PM. PLEASE make sure that you have done final alternations to your pledge, including the updated postal address by 31st of May. IT will affect the shipping date if the pledge manager is not locked.
They implied it or stated it a couple of other times too.
Then I'll humbly stand corrected.
They've definitely said a few times that it didn't matter if it got reopened though, they'd still be able to ship to you.
CptJake wrote: The only possible issue I can see with using Ninja Division is if you get hosed up product (I've seen folks report missing items for example). We don't know if Ninja Division will be able to address those types of issues or if we have to go through Prodos. I suspect the latter.
My understanding is that Ninja took delivery of sealed boxsets - they have no spare parts to be able to deal with issues. Maybe they'll get permission to break open spare stock to deal with such .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moses Bad wrote: Ain't like they never contradicted themselves ...
Indeed - they did so in that very update in fact, since the instructions for address change never materialised.
CptJake wrote: The only possible issue I can see with using Ninja Division is if you get hosed up product (I've seen folks report missing items for example). We don't know if Ninja Division will be able to address those types of issues or if we have to go through Prodos. I suspect the latter.
Thats definitely a concern of mine. I can only imagine how helpful Prodos will be with sorting out shipping errors, given their excellent track record with the rest of this so far. I'm not sure how ND would be able to straighten out shipping errors unless they start opening boxes and doing it that way, which of course would mean some backers would wait even longer. I don't think that Prodos could have fethed this up any worse had they set out to do it in the first place.
Grumpae wrote: Has anyone had any dealings with Ninja Division before? How are they to deal with?
ND handled distribution of Super Dungeon Explore : Forgotten King, a $1.1M KS. Distribution and communication went pretty well, I think. Tracking information was sent in a timely fashion, and screwups were minimal. I think ND does a good job for how big SDE:FK was, esp. for it being their first major product KS. I am willing to buy from ND again.
OTOH, according to Kevin S, ND totally fethed up the Robotech KS in a big way, and none of it is (or was) Palladium's fault for trusting ND and following their lead.
biggusdoggus wrote: while it pains me to defend Prodos, I feel it should be pointed out that at absolutely NO POINT during the project have Prodos said they NEED your pledge manager closed before they can ship you wave 1 product.
I beg to differ.
16 May
Prodos KS Message wrote:9. Pledge manager changes and address update. By Friday we'll have an update for you with instruction how to do changes in the PM, postal address update and locking the PM. PLEASE make sure that you have done final alternations to your pledge, including the updated postal address by 31st of May. IT will affect the shipping date if the pledge manager is not locked.
They implied it or stated it a couple of other times too.
Then I'll humbly stand corrected.
They've definitely said a few times that it didn't matter if it got reopened though, they'd still be able to ship to you.
And that is part of the problem. Their inability to communicate effectively and consistently coupled with contradictory information disseminated across a slew of mechanisms just screams Cluster feth Of The First Order. A guy who gets his info from one facebook group will know something the KS message guys does not, and between the two they may have been told 'definitively' three different and mutually exclusive things.
JohnHwangDD wrote: OTOH, according to Kevin S, ND totally fethed up the Robotech KS in a big way, and none of it is (or was) Palladium's fault for trusting ND and following their lead.
Well, I don't know ND, but I've dealt with PB before and read some really disturbing stuff about Kevin, so I wouldn't put it beyond him, to blame everybody but himself/PB.
cincydooley wrote: Wait. So Prodos did tell us to close the pledge managers or it would affect shipping.
Huh. How about that.
They told us after they opened it without telling us (so many folks assumed theirs were already closed), and then they also said they would issue instructions some folks (like me) were waiting on in order to ensure addresses were correct.
cincydooley wrote: Wait. So Prodos did tell us to close the pledge managers or it would affect shipping.
Huh. How about that.
IIRC they said that in a message that said they would follow up with (a) a link to the pledge manager and (b) details of how to close it, but did neither.
Resulting in some people who don;t file their emails efficiently like what I do (or just never delete anything) having lost the link to the pledge manager and not knowing how to find it or how to close it once they got there.
(and have supplied replacement parts to a mini I bought that had parts missing, despite it costing them more in international postage that I paid for it in the first place which is a real test of customer support)
but
they are really backed up from gencon (and don't seem to have the largest warehouse staff)
so don't expect everything to get into the post at once (I'm sure you don't but it does bare repeating).
Depending on who is responsible for the shipping emails you may find them arriving after your boxes if for example ND have to send the info to Prodos who then have to send it to you
(this is what happened with the UK forgotten king stuff, the drop shipper had to send ND the shipping info which they only did once everything was in the post, and then ND had to send it out to us... hopefully ND will be able to email you direct, but don't count on it)
JohnHwangDD wrote: OTOH, according to Kevin S, ND totally fethed up the Robotech KS in a big way, and none of it is (or was) Palladium's fault for trusting ND and following their lead.
Well, I don't know ND, but I've dealt with PB before and read some really disturbing stuff about Kevin, so I wouldn't put it beyond him, to blame everybody but himself/PB.
Oh great. So either they are crap and totally screwed over PB (doubtful PB needed any help with that...) or they are gluttens for punishment and assume that Prodos won't give them the same treatment? Haven't they seen how Prodos dump all the blame on Fox, now at least they'll have someone else to blame.
So tell me, which option is more appealing, laugh, or cry.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I just hope ND knows what they're getting into with Prodos, and protected themselves financially and contractually.
And if they did, who's willing to bet, another contract, Prodos haven't either read carefully or haven't understood in it's full?
OK, that's evil, but they sure are no business people ...
JohnHwangDD wrote: I just hope ND knows what they're getting into with Prodos, and protected themselves financially and contractually.
And if they did, who's willing to bet, another contract, Prodos haven't either read carefully or haven't understood in it's full?
OK, that's evil, but they sure are no business people ...
To my mind, that sums up Prodos in a single sentence. They make nice looking minis, that much we can be sure, but they appear utterly clueless about how to manage the customer/supplier relationship or indeed (thinking of their dealings with Fox) the licensor/licensee relationship. They are oblivious to the concept of keeping to their word, and when you can't,k then explain why and explain early. Underpromise and overdeliver is totally lost on them. I knew we were in trouble when I was told (by Prodos staff) that Prodos management were mightily pissed off with another successful and highly customer savvy kickstarter purely because they were being shown up and made to look incompetent. They didn't understand that the only reason they appear incompetent is because their actions back that view up.
My bet is that Prodos will slowly withdraw from the front line and go back to doing what they do best - producing figures for other companies. (and even that they can't necessarily get right - I notice they are being blamed for the lateness of Micro Art Studio's KS.
They are being blamed for the lateness of MAS' Wolsung KS; by MAS themselves.
I would not be surprised to see Demigods suffer the same fate after switching to Prodos from Titan Forge for their minis.
Absolutely correct that Prodos makes amazing miniatures, it's their disrespectful behavior, lack of professionalism, absence of business accumen and terrible fulfillment capabilities that will sink the company (and I have no doubt that will happen).
Alex C wrote: They are being blamed for the lateness of MAS' Wolsung KS; by MAS themselves.
Indeed. Not that I like that - I think it's gak that Prodos have spent much of this KS blaming Fox - we don't have a contract with Fox, we have a contract with them, and their inability to manage their relationship with Fox and understand Fox's processes is entirely their fault as far as I'm concerned. It's very bad form to pass the blame onto a third party. So likewise, it doesn't impress me to see MAS blame Prodos openly to their backers. It's just plain unprofessional.
I work in customer support, managing a team of 1st line engineers in a call centre. We pride ourselves in providing excellent service and taking full ownership of our customers issues. If any of them were ever to name a supplier by way of laying blame for a problem, they'd be out of a job so fast they wouldn't know what's hit them.
I'd assume, talent in one field sometimes leads to weird behaviour ... I'd like to use Justin Beaver as an example ... but he has no talent other than to annoy ... Kidding asside. It's odd, Demi haven't checked back with the progress of Prodos' KS to see, if they are up to it.
Biggus So it's rather We haven't ordered in time to provide the necessary sparepart. instead of: We've ordered, but they haven't shipped yet.
Just thought of another reason why I'm ok with the Kingdom Death delay over AVP. Kingdom Death was delayed, but the box grew post fundraising and extra value was added with extra weapons and items etc. iirc AVP has added very little, (unfortunately a backer passed away and I think Prodos said they'd sculpt a head for him in remembrance?). As the AVP project has continued I think my pledge has been devalued, be it an increase in print run, allowing post KS pledges, preorders, and ultimately coming second to an identical retail release. The KD:m box never claimed to be limited/exclusive and KD has also allowed post KS pledges and preorders but the price of doing so has steadily increased, possibly in part reflecting the additional value. Whilst I haven't the rules of either game yet, based on reviews alone, the AVP boardgame sounds like it's best played using the minis and tiles with a separate system, possibly because the rules appear rushed. Part of me wants KD:M to beat AVP to my doorstep just to show how presumably a smaller company can fulfil a boardgame, despite being manufactured in China and managed from America when Prodos are possibly just a couple of hours drive from me. Unfortunately AVP (as a boardgame) will probably gather dust on my shelf, I wouldn't be surprised to see the remaining retail copies being discounted further in the meantime.
for me the difference is simple. We all know KS projects are going to run late; though Battle Systems have just delivered their second consecutive project effectively on time - that's two projects, a year apart in the time it's taken Prodos to fail to deliver 1 - both companies started their project - AvP and Battle Systems Sci-fi (their first of the two) in the same month, had the same end funding date give or take 24 hours, and had the same delivery month (May 2014). Granted BS didn't have IP to deal with, but I believe you'll be pushed to find a single disgruntled BS backer, largely because they've communicated openly and honestly and made backers part of the process - literally! But ultimately we can (and usually do) forgive creators when their projects run late, if, and it's an important if, if they keep us in the loop.
I'm not a KD:M backer, but though I'm well aware of the huge delays in that project, my understanding is that Adam has communicated throughout the process, and been very open when he's done so. I'm sure there are backers that have gotten tired of the wait, but openness and honesty from the creator goes a very very long way towards buying good will.
That's just not something you can say about Prodos. I do believe that Prodos have tried to do the right thing, they're just not very good at it. It's more than possible that at some times their hands have been tied, but putting aside all the mess of the KS being brought down (an episode for which we saw multiple conflicting reasons, none of which really stand scrutiny) and the various other issues they had during the KS design phase, once they got the all clear on the boxed set from Fox, they had absolutely no good reason not to be anything other than honest and open with backers, and yet we've proved that they have continued in the same mould. That tells me that Fox was never really the problem, the problem has always been of Prodos' own doing. They have a habit of saying things without fully thinking it through, without proper planning for all eventualities, and time after time that lack of professionalism has reared up and bitten them. They change their story almost on a whim, they are conservative with the truth seemingly for no good reason other than perhaps they are scared to tell us reality for fear we'll be annoyed, and they totally fail to appreciate that when we catch them out (and we have done so multiple times) that makes us more angry than if they'd been open in the first place. That's not how companies should behave, it's not how adults behave. Hell, it's a lesson that even my youngest child has learned - better to be honest than be caught lying.
That's the real issue - that's why I (and I suspect many others) will never help to fund another Prodos project should they have a change of mind and decide to do another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and lo, the thread on facebook in which a UK store had openly admitted to having been offered a restock, has now been deleted. I wish I'd cut and pasted it for posterity now. Still, plenty of backers saw it, the truth is known, they don't seem to understand that rumours that become fact don't disappear quite that easily.
After some thought, I think I have figured ND's strategy here. They were smeared by PB blaming them as being the source of delay. They probably feel like if this turns out poorly, it won't hurt them, much. But, if they make Prodos customers happy with distribution, they will be heroes. Makes sense, sorta.
I'll be glad when I actually get my stuff, so I don't have to keep coming back to this thread for the slightest fething sliver of information in relation to the project. Ughh.
Grumpae wrote: After some thought, I think I have figured ND's strategy here. They were smeared by PB blaming them as being the source of delay. They probably feel like if this turns out poorly, it won't hurt them, much. But, if they make Prodos customers happy with distribution, they will be heroes. Makes sense, sorta.
And their Relic Knights kickstarter was very delayed as well (over a year) and caused the breakup with their first partner, CMON. They're certainly no saints but ND seems to have improved somewhat since. I'm not sure dipping their toe in Prodos' sewage filled pool will help their image but their savng grace is that they're coming in at the very end (of wave 1) and all they have to do to not piss off backers themselves would be to simply mail things out when they get it. It's clear that they're not involved in the actual design and production and are instead acting as a sales and post office for stuff that is already made.
Frontline Gaming on Youtube (sorry no link at the moment) posted a video battle report. I admittedly didn't watch the whole thing but instead just the bookends. No surprise who won there.
Grumpae wrote: After some thought, I think I have figured ND's strategy here. They were smeared by PB blaming them as being the source of delay. They probably feel like if this turns out poorly, it won't hurt them, much. But, if they make Prodos customers happy with distribution, they will be heroes. Makes sense, sorta.
And their Relic Knights kickstarter was very delayed as well (over a year) and caused the breakup with their first partner, CMON. They're certainly no saints but ND seems to have improved somewhat since.
It's no accident that CMoN launched a direct competitor to SDE and a direct competitor to Confrontation at the time of the ND breakup. Given how ND/SPM handled RK post break, I think the breakup may very well have been more on CMoN than ND.
Could someone who's on the closed AVP facebook group copy across today's "Friday update" if there is one. It would be great if those of us either not on facebook / not willing to join the group could read the update here. Backers seem to get the same message a couple of days later by email.
On a side note, I understand the legal need/use of the closed facebook group, (nothing negative shows up on a google search, there's a nice opportunity for bringing down the banhammer and heavy moderating)
I frequently check Prodos' own forum for updates, so if I spot an official update on there, I'll see if I can't copy it across if it hasn't already.
Some good questions P1 - 05:50 'Why is this product on shop shelves and not with backers?' Sounds like they have run out of money to afford posting out copies. 1 year late means 1 year of company over heads that needed paying...
P1 - 11:10 'Wasn’t it supposed to be plastic at retail?' Sounds like they run out of money to do plastic - only one sprue got made. So continuing to sell resin to raise cash. Future retail version is being reduced in size, and KS size remains the same as the current retail version
Obviously I'm not typing out exactly what was said.
P1 -15:10 'What are your obligations to KS backers?' We can send them out when we want. We can refuse refunds while we dangle to dream of shipping one day.
P1 - 24:30 'Why is the KS down?' We deleted the wrong one; Fox then said they wanted it to stay down... Plus it’s easier to keep it down to avoid a whole load of bs.
P2 0- 6:30 'There’s a lot of negative stuff on the internet' This has taken a negative effect on Rob personally ... affecting his sleep etc. I started to feel sorry for him... But I then remembered they took our money willingly... Can't be happy with him taking my £238 and delivering feth all by now while I can see copies in my local FLGs and in forbidden planet and on eBay.
What comments do they expect Backers to make? Backing the project has turned out to be the worst/slowest way to get a copy. Basically we back the project and we collectively made it happen, and we are the last to get to play it.
Well I've got no illusions of getting anything "soon", and apparently as long as they post updates they can take as long as they like, as they mentioned, but it also makes them feel bad.
Put, on the positive, at least talys doesn't post in these threads.
P2 0- 6:30 'There’s a lot of negative stuff on the internet' This has taken a negative effect on Rob personally ... affecting his sleep etc. I started to feel sorry for him... But I then remembered they took our money willingly...
I don't have time to go to your links right now but I did this on BGG:
My comment there was:
Me on BGG wrote:I love the way Rob between :40 and 1:16 talks about rewarding KS folks and making sure they get the benefits of having been early supporters.
Meanwhile, they have restocked some retailers and most KS backers still have nothing. They are fulfilling orders for the game from their own damned web store while KS backers are still waiting.
Talk about lack of integrity.
Screw Prodos.
If Rob has issues with being called a liar and having his integrity questioned, perhaps he should stop lying and proving he doesn't have much integrity. I don't give a crap about is feelings as it is perfectly clear he doesn't care about the feelings of the KS backers.
CptJake wrote: They are fulfilling orders for the game from their own damned web store while KS backers are still waiting.
Talk about lack of integrity.
Screw Prodos.
This^
I think they are out of money and need to sell copies to keep the company afloat while the trickle out copies to backers.
Basically they have no finacial motovation to supply to backers... Which would be fine if they come out and say this.
Not great but we would know why we are being gak on.
Why have the a webstore with 200 copies? shouldn't they have gone to backers.
In the Audio interview above Rob says they are making 200 and shipping 200 per day at the factory? to who?
I can only guess retail.
Which makes farce of what he said in that video interview you just linked...
Big Jim V wrote:This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for August 14, 2015:
It been a bit of a quiet time here at Prodos Due to the holiday period we are at the end of, we will be steaming ahead at full strength next week.
1. There will be a new Retail version of the board game, so the Kickstarter version will become more exclusive again. The backers received the game via the Kickstarter with a huge discount, meaning that there was a small gap between the production cost and money received (profit on the game box), however, between 2013 when we initially have did the calculation and the time 2015 rolled up the manufacturing cost went up by almost 30%, meaning that we as Prodos have taken the cost on the chin, after all, the delays caused with approval and so on are not backers problem but instead are ours.
Now we have been told that the material cost is going up again, by 15%. We along with the manufacturer have come to consensus that we will release 2 versions of the game; the Kickstarter that you will receive and the retail that shops will begin receiving; the retail will be different from the Kickstarter version you will be getting, the box weights less by over 1KG (different materials used) and will be smaller by 3cm (with a new layout). There will also be a reduction in the number of tiles (a few corridors will be removed plus flamer and blast template is also game- since they are not used in the core board game at all).
This will allow us to make a retail version and KS as a 2 different version of the games as initially promised, thus, you the backer will keep the value vs money and quality that you have paid in 2013.
2. We are happy to announce that the Spanish version of the AvP:THB rules PDF is available to download on our website in the Download section. The French and German versions should be available next week.
If you would like to receive your game in different language than English we will make it an option in the pledge manager next week, as long as your game was not shipped already, we will get you the language of your choice sent to you.
3. Shipping and Wave 1 completion, we are doing our best to get all Wave 1 boxes shipped by the end of August, however this may slip until the middle of September. We understand this will be upsetting too many and are sorry that it is the case, but we want to be as honest as we can here. All North American backers will be sent by the end of August via our US partners Ninja Division.
Please bear with us a little while longer, we are shipping, it is steady going but a bit slow. Know that your rewards are coming, it’s just taking longer than we initially expected and for that we are truly sorry.
You the Kickstarter backers are very important to us and we are not happy that many of you are upset, we really wish it could be different, honestly. We wish you all had your board game boxes already and we were well on to Wave 2.
Has anyone with the box taken a look at scenarios and tiles that come with the box?
Are there any scenarios that use all the tiles? If not, how many tiles (realistically how many sheets of tiles) can they leave out of the 'retail' version and still have all the scenarios in the book be playable with what is in the box?
I wonder if this new 'retail' version will still include the KS Exclusive Resin Figures?
So when it was financially convienent for them to break their kickstarter promises at the expense of kickstarter backers, they did.. and now when it is financially convienent to return to them at the expense of future retail customers, they do. Lol... at least they're consistent in that regard.
CptJake wrote: Has anyone with the box taken a look at scenarios and tiles that come with the box?
Are there any scenarios that use all the tiles? If not, how many tiles (realistically how many sheets of tiles) can they leave out of the 'retail' version and still have all the scenarios in the book be playable with what is in the box?
I wonder if this new 'retail' version will still include the KS Exclusive Resin Figures?
I don't believe any scenario in the starting booklet uses all the tiles. I can look again when I get home.
I wonder how much of their resources they will transfer to making the new retail version and how quickly shops will get it - Rob mentions 2 weeks time in the interview which means they must already be gearing up to make them. If I recall correctly the interview mentioned removing 3 sheets of corridors which are not needed for the core game and that the miniatures will remain resin as they don't have the funds to make the plastic versions.
CptJake wrote: Has anyone with the box taken a look at scenarios and tiles that come with the box?
Are there any scenarios that use all the tiles? If not, how many tiles (realistically how many sheets of tiles) can they leave out of the 'retail' version and still have all the scenarios in the book be playable with what is in the box?
I wonder if this new 'retail' version will still include the KS Exclusive Resin Figures?
They have only been able to pay for one plastic sprue (preds) so I'd guess yes.
Big Jim V wrote: 1. There will be a new Retail version of the board game, so the Kickstarter version will become more exclusive again...
Well it will equally as exclusive all retail sets currently being sold ... Currently £60 for a 'KS exclusive' copy at my local FLGsbtw
Big Jim V wrote:...If you would like to receive your game in different language than English we will make it an option in the pledge manager next week, as long as your game was not shipped already, we will get you the language of your choice sent to you.
So they're opening our pledge managers again!! christ.
I think this is the machine they are installing to our pledgemanagers.
Is that the same full strength the last year ran on?
1. And again, the fault lies at an unknown party. ~coughfoxcough~
2. ... Other languages ... great ... wonder what the distributor for Germany will say about it.
3. Wait, what? Prodos? Honest? That's a new one ... and I believe it, when I see it.
No, of course, new customers (retailers, their online shop) are fresh money - and what's more fun than spending fresh money?
Mh ... I dunno ...
No, absolutely feeling to pity for them and their sleepless nights. It's not like the haven't caused it themselves.
Oh, and another teeny weeny nitpick, please correct me, if I'm wrong.
Let's go back wayyyyy, to end of campaign.
From this whine-post regarding production costs I read again, Prodos are absolutely crap when it comes down to contracts.
Which part ever went up for 30% and after that 15% ...
Again, I can be wrong, but Prodos have been tied by contract to take 5K games from the manufacturer.
But they forgot to put a clause into their contract, that no matter when after production starts, fixed price, no rise?
I know almost zilch about production, but when I would make a contract, forced to take X units I'd make sure I'd fix the manufacturer on the costs - raw materials getting more expensive? Well, sorry mr. manufacturer.
Ah well, no real news.
Moses Bad wrote: Oh, and another teeny weeny nitpick, please correct me, if I'm wrong.
Let's go back wayyyyy, to end of campaign.
From this whine-post regarding production costs I read again, Prodos are absolutely crap when it comes down to contracts.
Which part ever went up for 30% and after that 15% ...
Again, I can be wrong, but Prodos have been tied by contract to take 5K games from the manufacturer.
But they forgot to put a clause into their contract, that no matter when after production starts, fixed price, no rise?
I know almost zilch about production, but when I would make a contract, forced to take X units I'd make sure I'd fix the manufacturer on the costs - raw materials getting more expensive? Well, sorry mr. manufacturer.
Ah well, no real news.
The way these contracts typically work is based of off quotations with lots of provisios. One of them being they will only be able to hold pricing on xyz until a certain date, and or, a clause saying that after such and such a date there will be a price increase. Due to most of this being based off the price of oil, which globally has dropped big time, yet the costs have been going up, due to the price of production at the refineries.. They (big oil) can't make money on the one hand so they make it on the other. I don't believe there was any way Prodos could protect themselves from certain price increases. At my work a quotation will only hold pricing for 30 days, but certain things are only one week, as they are volatile commodities. All of this excuses nothing, and if they would have had their poop in a group a year ago, would not be affecting them negatively at this time what so ever.
Exalts for everybody! Plenty of lines to read between from the latest updates, which in fairness, has been prompt and public. I don't think backers are expected to like the news though.
I'd have to agree that it's the things not said which are the most telling. Amazed that they can't say X% of core boxes have been dispatched, which would still include the boxes collected at cons and boxes shipped to Ninja Division.
Perhaps I have selective memory, but I still cannot recall a backer posting here that they'd recieved their box. (Collecting from a con, preordering, ordering or picking up a box at retail doesn't count IMO.)
CptJake wrote: I wonder if this new 'retail' version will still include the KS Exclusive Resin Figures?
I'm assuming they are going to use the "spin-cast" resin miniatures that they previewed recently in the new "low-value" retail boxes, and the KS exclusive boxes, including already shipped to retail and backers, will have the traditional poured resin miniatures
Oh, and shipping is going to slip into September, really, did not see that coming!
Grumpae wrote: Due to most of this being based off the price of oil, which globally has dropped big time, yet the costs have been going up, due to the price of production at the refineries.. They (big oil) can't make money on the one hand so they make it on the other. I don't believe there was any way Prodos could protect themselves from certain price increases.
They could have delivered on time, and not suffered the cost of delay.
PomWallaby wrote: Perhaps I have selective memory, but I still cannot recall a backer posting here that they'd recieved their box. (Collecting from a con, preordering, ordering or picking up a box at retail doesn't count IMO.)
Uhm, here, me, only one I know about ... about three weeks ago.
After a fairly pissed but sarcastic toned email.
PomWallaby wrote: Perhaps I have selective memory, but I still cannot recall a backer posting here that they'd recieved their box. (Collecting from a con, preordering, ordering or picking up a box at retail doesn't count IMO.)
Uhm, here, me, only one I know about ... about three weeks ago.
After a fairly pissed but sarcastic toned email.
Still nothing for me, maybe I am to patient and polite...
CptJake wrote: Has anyone with the box taken a look at scenarios and tiles that come with the box?
Are there any scenarios that use all the tiles? If not, how many tiles (realistically how many sheets of tiles) can they leave out of the 'retail' version and still have all the scenarios in the book be playable with what is in the box?
I wonder if this new 'retail' version will still include the KS Exclusive Resin Figures?
They have only been able to pay for one plastic sprue (preds) so I'd guess yes.
Do we know that as fact?
Here's a though - if that is true and they can't pay for the other sprues, then maybe they are so cash poor they can't pay for all the shipping to backers? Maybe they have a hand to mouth existence - and they are servicing retailers when they can simply because they need (and I mean desperately need) the cash in order to pay for more shipping.
They have only been able to pay for one plastic sprue (preds) so I'd guess yes.
Do we know that as fact?
Here's a though - if that is true and they can't pay for the other sprues, then maybe they are so cash poor they can't pay for all the shipping to backers? Maybe they have a hand to mouth existence - and they are servicing retailers when they can simply because they need (and I mean desperately need) the cash in order to pay for more shipping.
I'd hope not, it's just a thought.
It's discussed around 12 minutes into the interview they have only got the Predator sprue done, the rest is "not an investment we are quite ready to make right now, and it's not an investment that we could make until we've generated the revenue to make that investment"
so basically they don't have the money to do it and have to stick with resin.
yeah,
Can't afford to complete the plastics is pretty much the same thing as run out of money...
Hence I don't think we are getting our copy any time soon.
If they honestly made this clear I'd respect them....
However they just keep talking BS so we have no idea whats happening.
I suggest we all start stomping our feet more online.
I've made my views known on the comments for every video/review I can find and will keep doing so until they send me my product.
sorry - I hadn't watched the interview that far in.
So they can't afford to get the plastic tooling made, and they can't afford to ship all the backer pledges because of cashflow issues. (actually, thinking about it, I was essentially told they had major cash flow issues by staff at Expo)
But this would also suggest that they have no access to credit - at least not more credit than they already have.
All that points to a company in pretty serious trouble. I note that they tried to defend rumours of financial difficulties in an update a few weeks back, to the point of being quite aggressive about it. They wanted to know the source of the rumours, so that they could address them directly. Seems to me, looking at that interview, and given what I was told at Expo, they should probably look in-house .....
and if their own staff are essentially saying they are in trouble, then it's no longer a rumour.
So essentially, we have thre possible situations.
All is fine and we'll get what we payd for - game and add ons (in due times or ... soon) - and all that financial trouble stuff is still a rumour.
We at least get the base game and then Prodos is officially on the rocks.
Who hasn't his game yet can hope, they'll get their games before Prodos officially declares bankruptcy.
Spoke to my FLGS today regarding my pre-order retail copy - he's not yet had any deliveries, but then he operates on buy or return policy - so no cash flow until goods are sold...despite this he recently had a prodos rep ask him if he would stock their stuff (despite him doing this anyway already...) Long and short of it was, he thinks that they're only servicing those orders that are pay-up-front (which suggests real cashflow problems), which suggests not-good things. As a result I cancelled my order, and am now seriously pondering not getting this at all. It's a toss up between what could be great minis (if I can get a good copy) vs getting a 'cut down' reduced retail box if I don't get it soon, and potentially buying a game that isn't that great to play, vs one that might be a Real collectors edition, if only for the wrong reasons (very few actually in circulation.)
If the 'cut down retail' version is cheaper, but you are mainly interested in the figures, go for it. The figures will b the same s in the current retail/KS version.
Played at a FLGS yesterday, owner suggested I have a look at "AVP:THB". I politely told them not to wind me up any further about it. interestingly, whilst they were aware that it was largely funded by ks backers, they were very surprised to hear that backers needed to wait until enough copies are sold at retail so that Prodos can afford to honor the ks pledges.
Like people said, I don't want to see prodos crippled either, perhaps now AVP is at retail they are in a better position. Cash flow kills companies fast. But on the flip side, Warzone should be selling and why develop the Starcraft IP at a time of financial uncertainty depending on the success of AVP's retail release.
Prodos is much more than just AVP, so I'm surprised that the financial benifits of withholding backers copies of AVP outweigh the damage to their reputation. Even if Prodos were to announce a Mass Effect line, (which I'd be all over) there is little chance I'd back it. "Kickstarter is not a store", however Kickstarter pledges on their webstore is a store.
I think Ive officially decided to never purchase another Prodos or Palladium product again after these two kickstarters. Well, I mean I have *something* to show from Robotech tactics at least, even if wave 2 never happens... but the fact that the product that I gave Prodos money for over a year ago is currently sitting in a distribution center somewhere but not being sent to me because theyd rather generate more income off new sales is infuriating (and they are creating some serious ill will amongst the people who would otherwise be most likely to continue to support their game, and by extension their company, in the future with further purchases).
The States might be ok. I'd have thought Ninja Divison would have been sent all they need to fulfill N.American backers. I think this is more a European / Rest of the World problem based on the interviews / updates.
I've yet to receive any sort of email or notification whatsoever regarding my pledge from Ninja Division. Nor have I seen any indication of other American backers receiving anything. If ND has everything they need to go ahead with fulfillment then they are sure taking their sweet time with it.
I feel the same, I've already done the same with studio mcvey stuff i had most of their ltd ed stuff ,but the debacle that was sedition wars turned me sour . This has done the same before all this me and my group were seriously looking at warzone so that probably at least 1k of sales lost
I know that prodos are doing the production of minis for a number of other companys so alternate money lines are flowing into them seperate of warzone and AVP , panzerfauste from hysterical games aswell as 15mm marine tactical unit for white dragon games
dekinrie wrote: I know that prodos are doing the production of minis for a number of other companys so alternate money lines are flowing into them seperate of warzone and AVP , panzerfauste from hysterical games aswell as 15mm marine tactical unit for white dragon games
yup. other projects as well such as 3d printing for Micro Art Studio's kickstarter Wolsung, though it should be noted that MAS are reporting experiencing delays in receiving some of the prints from Prodos, thus delaying their project.
So now Prodos are getting a bad press from 3rd party customers let alone us backers.
I hadn't thought about them running a giant shell game/ponzi scheme with other business' money as well as backers, using new incoming money to pay for previous mistakes on their part while delaying the project(s) paid for. That's a scary potential situation.
Only thing we can hope for is that one of Prodos projects turns out to be successful enough to infuse them with the cash needed to 'catch up' on their finances and get everything rolled out the door.
chaos0xomega wrote: Only thing we can hope for is that one of Prodos projects turns out to be successful enough to infuse them with the cash needed to 'catch up' on their finances and get everything rolled out the door.
the irony being that this was probably the very project they expected (or at least hoped with good reason) would be their breakthrough product. It may yet be - I do hope that all the bad blood hasn't killed the game. If they can just get it out of the door, for all the issues they've had and for all our frustration, I'd hope and expect it to take off big time - if not as a board game (not convinced) then certainly as a wargame - I just hope they've learned from the errors of the boardgame rulebook and have gotten the wargame right.
dekinrie wrote: I know that prodos are doing the production of minis for a number of other companys so alternate money lines are flowing into them seperate of warzone and AVP , panzerfauste from hysterical games aswell as 15mm marine tactical unit for white dragon games
chaos0xomega wrote: I forget, didnt they say (months ago) that they already produced all the minis for this, not just the Wave 1 pieces but Wave 2 as well?
yes they did, but they recently stated that the wave 1 minis had been redesigned towards the end of the process to reduce them from approximately 7 parts down to 2-3. This mean trashing the 115000+ minis they'd already produced for wave 1 and had been sitting in boxes gathering dust for months. It may be the need to remake these minis that's slowing production of complete box games right now. Guessing this was Fox demanding minis that were simpler to construct, it shouldn't mean they have to do the same with wave 2 which you are right, is also sitting gathering dust, at least most of it is. We never have seen youngbloods, clear preds, predator objective markers, 3d terrain or faction specific dice, so who knows where they are with those items.
chaos0xomega wrote: I forget, didnt they say (months ago) that they already produced all the minis for this, not just the Wave 1 pieces but Wave 2 as well?
yes they did, but they recently stated that the wave 1 minis had been redesigned towards the end of the process to reduce them from approximately 7 parts down to 2-3. This mean trashing the 115000+ minis they'd already produced for wave 1 and had been sitting in boxes gathering dust for months. It may be the need to remake these minis that's slowing production of complete box games right now. Guessing this was Fox demanding minis that were simpler to construct, it shouldn't mean they have to do the same with wave 2 which you are right, is also sitting gathering dust, at least most of it is. We never have seen youngbloods, clear preds, predator objective markers, 3d terrain or faction specific dice, so who knows where they are with those items.
That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do... to scrap thousands of minis just to remake them again at your own cost voluntarily to make things easier for the backers.. who, you know, they haven't cared about for months before and after. The simpler and more consistent answer given their recent history is that they just didn't make them and lied about it. We'll never know the truth though...
chaos0xomega wrote: I forget, didnt they say (months ago) that they already produced all the minis for this, not just the Wave 1 pieces but Wave 2 as well?
yes they did, but they recently stated that the wave 1 minis had been redesigned towards the end of the process to reduce them from approximately 7 parts down to 2-3. This mean trashing the 115000+ minis they'd already produced for wave 1 and had been sitting in boxes gathering dust for months. It may be the need to remake these minis that's slowing production of complete box games right now. Guessing this was Fox demanding minis that were simpler to construct, it shouldn't mean they have to do the same with wave 2 which you are right, is also sitting gathering dust, at least most of it is. We never have seen youngbloods, clear preds, predator objective markers, 3d terrain or faction specific dice, so who knows where they are with those items.
That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do... to scrap thousands of minis just to remake them again at your own cost voluntarily to make things easier for the backers.. who, you know, they haven't cared about for months before and after. The simpler and more consistent answer given their recent history is that they just didn't make them and lied about it. We'll never know the truth though...
But... there were photos of the minis, werent there? Boxes and boxes and boxes (and more boxes) of them?? Maybe this is why Prodos is in such dire financial straights? They can't exactly reprocess resin minis into new minis (I mean, you can grind up resin minis into a fine powder and use it to cut liquid resin, but you're talking probably 5-10% of the total volume of the resin at best) nor can they recoup labor costs to produce them... thats a pretty significant monetary investment that Prodos had to take on the chin if its at all true (not that I have much sympathy, had they managed the project better from the start and been more careful with the approvals process none of this crap would have happened).
Yes there were lots of boxes, and even video of a Prodos employee tearing them open and throwing the contents around like a child as if to say "here they fething are!" to the backers.
Unfortunately they did it all long before Fox came back to them and said they needed to be fewer pieces and have the copyright stuff on them (which I think they put on the bases, right?).
I would not be surprised if all those minis got scrapped.
Even if they did need to produce new miniatures for the box game, that wouldn't mean they would have to throw them out. They could use them to fulfill is backers wave two add-ons. Would be such a waste otherwise.
Grumpae wrote: Even if they did need to produce new minister s for the box game, that wouldn't mean they would have to throw them out. They could use them to fulfill is backers wave two add-ons. Would be such a waste otherwise.
Unless Fox demanded that all of the miniatures be fewer parts.
I'm just thinking Fox may be more lenient for the backer only stuff. Also might give a bit more variety to the models. If they can't use them, c'est la vi. Their own damn fault for making a ton of inventory that wasn't approved.
It's been discussed before but I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere. There appear to be 3 legal entities revolving around Prodos:
Prodos Ltd (Company 07804204)
PRODOS GAMES LTD (Company 08373380)
and CEREBRUM GAMES LTD (Company 09160536)
Prodos Ltd appears to be a shell from the accounts and only Jarek is a director.
Prodos Games Ltd looks like the active company and has Mark Rapson, Jarek Ever and Michal Pawlaczyk as directors
Cerebrum Games Ltd has the same 3 directors as Prodos Games Ltd but is quite new and hasn't filed any accounts yet.
Prodos Games Ltd is also a Director of TITAN GAMES (LEAMINGTON SPA) (Company 09130219) which looks like an off-shoot of Titan Games Ltd in Staffordshire.
The bit that I'd love to look at is what Cerebrum is set up for - I can totally understand reasons for spinning off different parts of company activities into separate entities, but one of those is to insulate the group against one failure taking down the group - good for the company, less so for any company creditors. The Titan Games thing I'd guess is some sort of dipping the toe in retail, maybe setting up a UK Mail Order arm (speculation) and I doubt it's anything to worry about.
I'd also love to look at Prodos Games Ltd's accounting treatment for the Kickstarter, as their 2014 accounts (as at 31/1/14) state creditors as £73,315 - I'd have thought they would have received all the KS funds at that point, so in that case either they are not showing KS backers as a creditor or they are showing the value at much less than the pledge values e.g. at manufacture cost only (or there's something I haven't thought of). That creditor value is also shown as secured, and I'd doubt that the KS backers count as a secured creditor.
although according to Webcheck, it appears that Mark Rapson is no longer a Director at Prodos Games Ltd (you will probably have to search for prodos games on there - the link looks general):
Hmm - while double checking some things on Webchek, it seems Jarek and Michal were terminated as directors of Cerebrum on the same day as Mark Rapson ceased to be a Director of Prodos Games Ltd, and an application has now been made for striking off (the company would cease to exist). That sounds like Mr Rapson would have an interesting set of stories to tell (although I suspect he wouldn't be able to).
I wasn't sure how Prodos Games Ltd holding a directorship in their off-shoot worked - interestingly they don't have a store in Leamington Spa listed, so maybe it was a future idea to have a Joint Venture - sort of Prodos version of Warhammer World with Titan running it (pure speculation)? Unlikely to be relevant to the AvP KS though tbh. The bit that's really tweaked my interest is Mark Rapson seemingly nothing to do with Prodos any more.
Cheers - I didn't know that and I'd always got the impression that he was one of the main driving forces behind Prodos - I could have got that wrong though - if he's branching off into other stuff that would explain him leaving the top table positions at Prodos.
Strange enough, anybody remember the HQ 25th anni thing back then?
A lot of people thought it would never come and everybody backing it after the third try on different sites was an idiot.
Now it looks like, that thing will be done long before AvP ...
Moses Bad wrote: Strange enough, anybody remember the HQ 25th anni thing back then?
A lot of people thought it would never come and everybody backing it after the third try on different sites was an idiot.
Now it looks like, that thing will be done long before AvP ...
I guess that the main difference I see with that, is at least you knew going into it the HQ25 was a risk. I didn't fully appreciate the risk with AVP, no ones fault but my own on that one.
Sorta, yeah.
They communicate even less than Prodos (a peep every quarter a year or so) and release has been pushed from may to july to september - maybe that was the last one ...
Moses Bad wrote: Strange enough, anybody remember the HQ 25th anni thing back then?
A lot of people thought it would never come and everybody backing it after the third try on different sites was an idiot.
Now it looks like, that thing will be done long before AvP ...
I'm not at all sure HQ25 is going to reach backer hands - the game still has to go final, then GW Legal & Hasbro Legal can enjoin to assess to what extent EU / US IP may be infringed and whether distribution licenses may be required. There is a lot that can happen on HQ25.
AvP at least has the legal issue squared via the license with Fox.
Huh, might be a particularly foul-tempered chihuahua now you mention it. I've never been much one for zoology. (and now you mention it, I'll gladly trust the chihuahua over Prodos just the same )
richred_uk wrote: It's been discussed before but I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere. There appear to be 3 legal entities revolving around Prodos:
Prodos Ltd (Company 07804204)
PRODOS GAMES LTD (Company 08373380)
and CEREBRUM GAMES LTD (Company 09160536)
Prodos Ltd appears to be a shell from the accounts and only Jarek is a director.
Prodos Games Ltd looks like the active company and has Mark Rapson, Jarek Ever and Michal Pawlaczyk as directors
Cerebrum Games Ltd has the same 3 directors as Prodos Games Ltd but is quite new and hasn't filed any accounts yet.
Prodos Games Ltd is also a Director of TITAN GAMES (LEAMINGTON SPA) (Company 09130219) which looks like an off-shoot of Titan Games Ltd in Staffordshire.
The bit that I'd love to look at is what Cerebrum is set up for - I can totally understand reasons for spinning off different parts of company activities into separate entities, but one of those is to insulate the group against one failure taking down the group - good for the company, less so for any company creditors. The Titan Games thing I'd guess is some sort of dipping the toe in retail, maybe setting up a UK Mail Order arm (speculation) and I doubt it's anything to worry about.
I'd also love to look at Prodos Games Ltd's accounting treatment for the Kickstarter, as their 2014 accounts (as at 31/1/14) state creditors as £73,315 - I'd have thought they would have received all the KS funds at that point, so in that case either they are not showing KS backers as a creditor or they are showing the value at much less than the pledge values e.g. at manufacture cost only (or there's something I haven't thought of). That creditor value is also shown as secured, and I'd doubt that the KS backers count as a secured creditor.
although according to Webcheck, it appears that Mark Rapson is no longer a Director at Prodos Games Ltd (you will probably have to search for prodos games on there - the link looks general):
Hmm - while double checking some things on Webchek, it seems Jarek and Michal were terminated as directors of Cerebrum on the same day as Mark Rapson ceased to be a Director of Prodos Games Ltd, and an application has now been made for striking off (the company would cease to exist). That sounds like Mr Rapson would have an interesting set of stories to tell (although I suspect he wouldn't be able to).
Oh he is and he can!
The said Mark Rapson here.
Cerebrum Games will cease to exist very shortly
I am no longer part of Prodos Games
Prodos Ltd predates Prodos Games and was JE personal company for contracts linked to his former career.
The Titan Games Company is a dead shell set up for a shop venture which would have been a partnership between Prodos and Titan Games. This project was killed by Titan Games.
Prodos Games has no owners in the UK and yet another company owned by ProdosGames and Jarek's father in Poland (pila) called Archon Games.
I worked approximately 20 hours a week for Prodos for promises and lies and on average £100 of expenses a month. I wised up.
I don't believe Prodos Games are in financial issues. I do believe that the remaining ownership have an ethical approach to their employees, minor share holders, business customers or KS backers, that differs significantly to mine and what most people would consider normal. These reasons are why I left.
I set up Cerebrum between the same 3 owners but with me in control. JE has majoity of Prodos Games. I did this because I have 3 game ideas which I wanted to maintain ownership of. When it became clear that the remaining ownership of Cerebrum/Prodos Games would not support (and infact would actively inhibit these projects) I left and sold ALL shares to Prodos Games and closed down Cerebrum.
Prodos Games has the licence for the Hysterical Games game Panzerfauste (owned in the majority by Rob Alderman - now listed as Director of Sales for Prodos Games). This I understand will be KS but in Hysterical's name although it will be a Prodos project.
Hope that helps....and just to say I'm truely shocked and disturbed by how the KS backers for AvP have been treated in the last couple of months.
All of this sounds like:
Prodos have no money issues, but give a frak about obligations towards backers (nothing new there).
About 98% of everything Prodos said regarding continued excuses are what everybody expected them to be and Prodos always denied and even felt offended by the mere mentioning: lies (nothing new here).
I stand with my previously estimated timetable: Full completion by the end of 2017.
All of this raises just one question in my opinion, well, a few, but we'll see where I end up ... What are they thinking? Killing not just their first customer base but also pissing off their investors. If we where a bank, they'd be crawling so low, moles would take cover. Do they have even the slightest bit of empathy? Business sense clearly not but they should have a vague idea how they would feel and I got the feeling, they'd be raising hell if they'd be treated that way. Somehow this looks psychologically speaking like a bully behaviour: They get crap from Fox and they take it out on the next one, i.e. us, but can't stand it if we tell them we know they are fraking with us. Like we should be grateful that (if) we get the game, they took all the work (OK), the risk (financially not really) and the time and effort and Fox's bevahiour. Well, guess what Prodos, you are a pathetic bunch of liars. Unfortunately, they are too scared or full of themselves to read here or react. Is it worth mentioning/any wonder, I haven't received an answer to my mail asking, when ASAP for those replacement cards will be?
Just wrote a second one, this time pissed. C'mon, I don't need those cards before other backers receive, but I do want an answer and three weeks should be enough time.
I suspect that a lot of what Prodos are saying is an instruction from Fox is not. Personally I don't believe that Fox said it must be in retail channels by 30/6/15 at the same time as holding up approvals. I certainly don't believe (and I don't think Prodos have explicitly claimed this - just not corrected their cheerleaders when they have assumed it) that Fox have instructed Prodos to serve retail ahead of KS backers.
I appreciate that Mark may well not be in a position to answer specific queries like these, and totally respect that (or even he just doesn't want to having left it well behind).
Or gets some lawsuit for whistleblowing, so to say.
Update regarding the cards: Shipped, yesterday ... geez, Prodos, a little more communication results in way less bummed customers ... what do you call people unable to learn? I demand it being called to be Prodos ... take it up in a dictionary! It's sad, I only get a response/reaction, when I write unfriendly absuive mails.
Moses Bad wrote: Or gets some lawsuit for whistleblowing, so to say.
Update regarding the cards: Shipped, yesterday ... geez, Prodos, a little more communication results in way less bummed customers ... what do you call people unable to learn? I demand it being called to be Prodos ... take it up in a dictionary!
It's sad, I only get a response/reaction, when I write unfriendly absuive mails.
You're just responding in kind to unfriendly abusive "updates". It's more like speaking the same language.
Prodos strikes again from the Kings of War update (Prodos are making the Blaine mini)
Just to keep you up to speed but we are having some minor stock issues with the Tyrant Blaine miniature on Gramakh that is slowing down our ability to ship orders. We’ve not been sent enough by our supplier and are getting deliveries every two or three days to replenish stock enough so that we can keep sending out orders.
Why would mantic need prodos to make that? I thought mantic made plenty of resin and metal minis themselves in the past? Did they stop making anything on their own with the kickstarters and the switch to various forms of plastic?
warboss wrote: Why would mantic need prodos to make that? I thought mantic made plenty of resin and metal minis themselves in the past? Did they stop making anything on their own with the kickstarters and the switch to various forms of plastic?
No idea but several people in the KoW thread have reported that Prodos made Blaine so they seem to be outsourcing some of the miniatures at least and Prodos have got some of that work.
Ah, thanks. It appears BOLS was able to get a copy of AVP at gencon and have posted an unboxing. I'm guessing they didn't buy it but rather were given a gratis review copy instead due to their relatively high profile as a blog.
warboss wrote: Why would mantic need prodos to make that? I thought mantic made plenty of resin and metal minis themselves in the past? Did they stop making anything on their own with the kickstarters and the switch to various forms of plastic?
No idea but several people in the KoW thread have reported that Prodos made Blaine so they seem to be outsourcing some of the miniatures at least and Prodos have got some of that work.
I got this a year ago, wouldn't be surprised if Mantic got the same message and decided to use Blaine as a test piece.
Hello,
My name is Jim Vidlak from Prodos Games; we would like to let you know about the services that we are offering to other miniatures companies like yourself. I know your current project is done, but we might be able to help you in your future projects.
We are a miniatures company that offer 3d design, printing and casting services to members of the game industry. We can do any or all of these services for you depending on your needs.
Have you truly considered how efficient 3D design and printing is for the miniatures gaming industry? In less than a year we here at Prodos Games have created an entire miniatures range with over 80 individual units and are about to release a second range using these cutting edge 3D design and print technologies.
Just imagine you could add to or update your product like in a mere fraction of the time it would take to create and update them by traditional methods. With 3D sculpting and printing your models can be made and in production in weeks as opposed to months or years.
The team we have assembled has been responsible for some of the cutting edge 3D model designs you have seen from such companies as Puppet Wars, Micro Art Studios, and Modiphius Entertainment.
We provide a full service option for all your 3D design needs; from concept art, the 3d sculpting process, 3d printing, and casting your project in Liquid Plastic. We can provide services from small runs to large scale production. We provide services based upon what suits your project's needs best.
Somehow I can't see, Prodos doing this for long ... Stalling their own KS (say, has their first one been done by now?). Stalling two other games. Even if no company looks here to see, how Prodos are doing, they are killing yet another moneysource. Yaih, Prodos. You know King Midas? The guy that turned everything he touched to gold (yeah, died at the end, like any good greek tragedy - but that's not what I'm aiming for)? Guess what everything turns into, you lay your paws onto? You have three guesses and the first letter is an S.
Yaih, Prodos. You know King Midas? The guy that turned everything he touched to gold (yeah, died at the end, like any good greek tragedy - but that's not what I'm aiming for)? Guess what everything turns into, you lay your paws onto?
You have three guesses and the first letter is an S.
I believe they have also stalled the fulfilment of the Wolsung kickstarter as well for Micro Art Studio.
From their latest update
Posted by Micro Art Studio
Hi Guys,
the Giant Golem is produced, the cards are ready, but we are still waiting for the package from Prodos games we were supposed to get last week. There still is no sign of it, so we are unable to give any definite dates. What we can assure you of though is that the shipping will start as soon as Julia and Benito casts arrive from Prodos. We really hope is only a matter of a few days.
I've actually been emailing Prodos recently about a quote for producing some Miniatures. I'm definitely glad I did some research on them and read this thread as they certainly won't be getting any of my business now.
AlexHeap wrote: I've actually been emailing Prodos recently about a quote for producing some Miniatures. I'm definitely glad I did some research on them and read this thread as they certainly won't be getting any of my business now.
You still might be able to use them - timing is critical/key here. They are delivering to the other campaigns, just a bit...late!
Also, Maxmini does good resin casting too - in case you're wondering!
Well I guess the good news is that, whenever it comes, you know the Blaine miniature will look good. That's not a guarantee you can make with Mantic all the time.
Moses Bad wrote: Why? They're all over the place, except with backers ...
And the miniatures and overall game components are glorious.
Really great looking stuff.
But you better go and buy at your local shop, because Prodos, your trustworthy, communicative, reliable and truthfull creators will rather send the fifth restock, before you get yours.
Moses Bad wrote: Why? They're all over the place, except with backers ...
And the miniatures and overall game components are glorious.
Really great looking stuff.
But you better go and buy at your local shop, because Prodos, your trustworthy, communicative, reliable and truthfull creators will rather send the fifth restock, before you get yours.
Moses Bad wrote: Why? They're all over the place, except with backers ...
And the miniatures and overall game components are glorious.
Really great looking stuff.
But you better go and buy at your local shop, because Prodos, your trustworthy, communicative, reliable and truthfull creators will rather send the fifth restock, before you get yours.
We already established I got mine from Prodos.
I may even order a 2nd copy from them.
Fill your boots man! I'm sure it won't affect the dismal (at best) delivery of my copies. Honestly I'm glad someone is liking the game enough to buy another copy.
What I see there is a troll that is just trying to provoke people with his cheerleading.
Reason why I put him on ignore.
I could be running to some mod, whining I feel offended by him, but since I'm no crybaby ... it's just bye bye.
Rob Prodosgames Whoa! That escalated...
Okay, it was set at 9999 units in stock, because we are the manufacturer. It doesn't mean we are sitting on a mountain of AvP's... tongue emoticon
If we had 9999 copies of AvP in our warehouse, we would be over the moon!
We do have issues with both manufacturing and shipping at this stage.
We have to generate turnover (which is not a problem) in order to continue shipping the Kickstarter.
As a USA backer, your order will ship from Ninja Division at the end of September. We know it's been pushed back, but that is our problem, not NDs. Our final shipment to them has been delayed and they think the best thing for the US market is to get it all shipped at the same time. We agree!
2 hrs · Unlike · 4
From the Facebook Group. The first time that Prodos have explicitly acknowledged that they cannot afford to ship KS backer rewards without funds from retail sales. I applaud their belated honesty while raising an eyebrow at their dubious programme management abilities.
Thanks for sharing, I'm not a fb person so I would never have seen this otherwise. Not at all surprised by this information. I'm sure we all suspected this. Especially due to them constantly reopening the pm, making retailers their priority, etc. I'm not going to believe any shipping announcements until the product shows up on my doorstep. I sure wish I could somehow stop thinking about it all the time though...
Hmmm, just re-reading that (I skimmed the bit about the US as I'm not there)
On 14th August, we (or you/ they) get:
Jim Prodosgames
14 August at 16:53
This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for August 14, 2015:
<SNIP>
3. Shipping and Wave 1 completion, we are doing our best to get all Wave 1 boxes shipped by the end of August, however this may slip until the middle of September. We understand this will be upsetting too many and are sorry that it is the case, but we want to be as honest as we can here. All North American backers will be sent by the end of August via our US partners Ninja Division.
On 20th August that becomes:
Rob Prodosgames <SNIP>
As a USA backer, your order will ship from Ninja Division at the end of September. We know it's been pushed back, but that is our problem, not NDs. Our final shipment to them has been delayed and they think the best thing for the US market is to get it all shipped at the same time. We agree!
That's a heck of a shift to the right to announce in a reply to someone else's post and not an 'official announcement', especially when not all NA backers are in the group, so the news seeps out from forums like this.
All of this makes me wonder how long Prodos can hold onto the license before Fox decides to pull the plug in favor of giving it to a company that will give them a better revenue stream.
Considering how popular the Alien and Predator deck building games are Fox must be getting a decent return on that licensing deal. I'm sure what they are getting from Prodos must pale in comparison.
I think the popularity of the deck-building games should show Fox that there is a thriving AvP gaming market that Prodos isn't capable of tapping into, because they don't seem to understand that market and instead put themselves into a niche section of that market cutting themselves off from a larger source of revenue.
Moses Bad wrote: What I see there is a troll that is just trying to provoke people with his cheerleading.
Reason why I put him on ignore.
I could be running to some mod, whining I feel offended by him, but since I'm no crybaby ... it's just bye bye.
My feelings.
Crushed.
You're welcome to run to any mod that you want. My rebuts to your arguments haven't been, in any way, shape, or form, harassing or off-topic. Most have been rooted in simple fact. You seem to have trouble with those.
You can continue to complain and complain; that's on you.
At this point I'm honestly not sure if ND even recieved any of them to ship out. We know that they got 50 or whatever to give out at GenCon, but did they get any more than that? We don't know. I would love to see something from ND about it, but highly doubt that they would risk the new partnership at this point, as I'm sure Prodos wouldn't be happy about it. Did someone mention eye gouging earlier? I'll second that motion.
I think the popularity of the deck-building games should show Fox that there is a thriving AvP gaming market that Prodos isn't capable of tapping into, because they don't seem to understand that market and instead put themselves into a niche section of that market cutting themselves off from a larger source of revenue.
Who's to say there's a captive audience that wants to produce a Licensed AvP game outside of Prodos? The property has been around for 30 years. There hasn't been a miniatures game associated with it like, seven years since HorroClix died.
If Fox was really concerned about getting a game to market, they'd leverage Wizkids or Hasbro or even Upper Deck (they did minis once...), companies that all have higher budgets than Prodos.
I think the popularity of the deck-building games should show Fox that there is a thriving AvP gaming market that Prodos isn't capable of tapping into, because they don't seem to understand that market and instead put themselves into a niche section of that market cutting themselves off from a larger source of revenue.
Who's to say there's a captive audience that wants to produce a Licensed AvP game outside of Prodos? The property has been around for 30 years. There hasn't been a miniatures game associated with it like, seven years since HorroClix died.
If Fox was really concerned about getting a game to market, they'd leverage Wizkids or Hasbro or even Upper Deck (they did minis once...), companies that all have higher budgets than Prodos.
There might not be a company that wants to produce a miniatures game right now (licensed minis aren't a sure thing), but with the increasing exposure of the licenses, (Alien 3.2, Predator 4, Prometheus 2, not to mention the comic reboot and success of Alien Isolation and the deck-building games) there might be a company willing to produce a true boardgame that uses the licenses, but I think Prodos has that possibility tied up.
I also have to wonder how long Fox will let Prodos drag them and their IP through the mud before stepping in. Even though Fox isn't producing the game, the bad publicity and mismanagement by Prodos still reflects back upon them.
As a UK based Kickstarter backer, my copy arrived yesterday via UPS. Although I received the e-mail from Prodos on the 10th, the parcel wasn't logged with UPS until the 14th. Delivery wise for the UK it's goes Poland, Germany and then to the UK via air.
Contents wise, no damaged rule book, printing on the cards and boards look fine on the initial first look. All the miniatures look to be fully cast with the correct arms etc.
A couple of pointers, the figures are very detailed and the multipart nature of the marines might cause some issues. The cutting disc blades are paper thin and the spear might benefit from replacing the shaft with a metal rod.
Hopefully, other UK backers are getting their boxes and that delivery is ramming up.
Big Jim wrote: As a UK based Kickstarter backer, my copy arrived yesterday via UPS. ...
Yay! Good news.
Big Jim wrote: Hopefully, other UK backers are getting their boxes and that delivery is ramming up.
raced off to e-mail...but nothing. too much to hope for. Considering how often my pledge manager has been open I checked that too. It says awaiting. That doesn't sound as though it's closed. Can anyone remind me what the "awaiting" status means? I'm sure I did get an e-mail telling me the thing was closed, after I added in some extras.
Tbh at this point i would be happy if they turned around and said dear backers we've messed up and cant afford to send you copies out ,if your happy to wait then do tjat if you want to then you can pay the postage and we will ship it out
CURNOW wrote: Tbh at this point i would be happy if they turned around and said dear backers we've messed up and cant afford to send you copies out ,if your happy to wait then do tjat if you want to then you can pay the postage and we will ship it out
Is it bad that when I first read that instead of postage I saw hostage?
thothkins wrote: raced off to e-mail...but nothing. too much to hope for. Considering how often my pledge manager has been open I checked that too. It says awaiting. That doesn't sound as though it's closed. Can anyone remind me what the "awaiting" status means? I'm sure I did get an e-mail telling me the thing was closed, after I added in some extras.
Don't fret - awaiting means as much as "waiting to be fulfilled". At least, that's how I remember. And I haven't received a real shipping confirmation - guess you only get one of those, if you order in the online shop. You get a receipt, but that's about it. I even had to write them in the typical manner, sadly, because I didn't get a receipt. But paranoid as I am I wanted a confirmation, on what I spent my money instead of just having that spreadsheet.
CURNOW wrote: Tbh at this point i would be happy if they turned around and said dear backers we've messed up and cant afford to send you copies out ,if your happy to wait then do tjat if you want to then you can pay the postage and we will ship it out
Not like we haven't yet. Wonder what would happen, if I'd add another base game in the PM ... won't try it.
Grumpae wrote: Is it bad that when I first read that instead of postage I saw hostage?
No, that's just Freud. As in Siegmund (dunno how well known he is outside of Europe).
Oh, and a quick sidenote: GameZone have contacted me, what to print as of whom the HQ box belongs to. So far, this still looks as if it will actually happen ... sometime in September.
CURNOW wrote: Tbh at this point i would be happy if they turned around and said dear backers we've messed up and cant afford to send you copies out ,if your happy to wait then do tjat if you want to then you can pay the postage and we will ship it out
assuming of course that they have enough money to manufacture the KS boxsets - I'm not convinced. I've heard (did I read it here?) that they are refusing restocks to retailer who expect goods on credit and targeting those who will pay up front. To me that stinks of a company without two brass farthings to rub together for a coffee. If they won't ship to retailers on credit, then they simply don't have the cash to finish the sets they need for backers who have already paid.
Of course it can be extrapolated that if they don't have funds for completing this KS, then their other projects, including WZR aren't earning them significant income.
Frankly they could kiss my shiny white ass if they asked for more of my money. Prodos and I had a deal, I paid a certain amount and they were to ship a certain set of product to me for that amount. Asking for more without having fulfilled ANY of their current commitment to me and without an option for a refund instead (which we know cannot happen) would be met with laughter by myself.
There would be zero guarantee that even with more money they would ship anything in any timely manner, except of course Their Word, which is worth nothing to me at this point.
Jim Prodosgames
57 mins · Edited
This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for Friday August 21, 2015
This week we shipped the last of the North American boxes to Ninja Division, once they receive them they will ship all remaining US backers all in one go. Doing so means we can assure all of our US backers receives the game in 1 large combat drop. Yes, this is later than we had intended, but we would much rather assure that you all received your games together then risk lone marine getting left behind due to delays.
Next Wednesday we will receive the next shipment of board games. There have been some manufacturing delays between having both types of board game boxes (KS and retail) printed, unfortunately xenomorphs got into the power ducts again and cut the power.
We understand this may not be the most happiest of updates and we do understand your frustrations, please accept our apologies and rest assured you will have your game with the deadliest adversaries in the Galaxy soon enough. Stay Frosty.
Cheers,
Prodos Games LTD
Let's assume, it is true, it still strikes me odd.
Shipping the last boxes - that means, they already had some.
Why wait to ship it all at once? Who did they think they'd anger by one backer receiving and one still waiting?
Could anybody even be more pissed about shipping?
More in general is possible, depending on the BS they are pulling in the future, but about shipping is about at it's max.
Don't fret - awaiting means as much as "waiting to be fulfilled". At least, that's how I remember. And I haven't received a real shipping confirmation - guess you only get one of those, if you order in the online shop.
You get a receipt, but that's about it. I even had to write them in the typical manner, sadly, because I didn't get a receipt. But paranoid as I am I wanted a confirmation, on what I spent my money instead of just having that spreadsheet..
Thanks for that. It's been so long, I couldn't remember it I know what you mean about paranoia about it. I've kept everything I could just in case my pledge gets "lost" somewhere along the way. Or transmissions go down from LV-Prodos.
There was an interesting thread on the FB group last night (I didn't screenshot it) that's been deleted.
Essentially it was someone posting a screenshot from the Wolsung KS campaign by Micro Art Studios that was saying Prodos were late & partial in delivery and no explanation was forthcoming.
Jarek (I think - the poster was yarooprodosgames which I think is Jarek) posted saying that they had shipped some but would ship no more until MAS settled their old invoices, and that MAS had been told this.
Not taking a side on the truth of this one, but while there's accusations about Prodos delaying other KS campaigns, it's only fair to also let their response get the same audience.
Moses Bad wrote: But if they are right for a change, why delete it?
I won't take either stance, but I can't help smelling fish.
Well, to be fair, it's not the most tactful way to collect debts Not if you want to keep earning from that customer. There may well be other sides and a bit of "he said she said", so I don't have a huge problem with it being deleted on diplomacy grounds. It's nothing concrete, but an interesting snap shot.
EDIT - UPDATE
Today's MAS Wolsung KS update has this paragraph "One more thing I would like to clarify since a lot of comments here mention Prodos Games. They are our good friends and we are happy with the quality of their service. The cast quality is excellent. The delays are not caused by their lack of professionalism, but rather some technical issues that could hardly be forseen. We are willing to cooperate with them further in the future and are convenient that our partnership will continue in a fruitful way."
Which reading between the lines sounds a lot like "umm, yes, we did owe them money". To me at least.
i think are quite busy on the mini production front as mantic have been delayed with their pledges that included blaine from the updates prodos are shipping them in batches though considering there a couple of thousand to be made its gonna take more than 5 minutes
As far as shipping goes, they can announce what ever dates that they want. The only way I'll believe its been shipped is when it shows up at my door.
As per wave 2.... I highly doubt we'll see this year. I'm thinking more along the lines of second quarter. Again, I'll believe it when it hits my door step, and not a foot sooner.
How does that go, fool me once, shame on you, fool me for two years.... yeah, something like that.
krazynadechukr wrote: Man, I must have lucked out with this whole thing. I placed an order on August 4th & got it August 7th. It came from Poland & I am in the USA (CA).
Ordered a second one on August 10th (5am my time) & that got here August 12th!
That's because you're ordering direct via their website, which apparently they are sending out immediately.
Those of us in the US who ordered KS copies have to wait for Ninja Division to ship them, and apparently they are waiting until all backer copies are with them and ready to ship before sending any out.
krazynadechukr wrote: Man, I must have lucked out with this whole thing. I placed an order on August 4th & got it August 7th. It came from Poland & I am in the USA (CA).
Ordered a second one on August 10th (5am my time) & that got here August 12th!
Thanks for buying two. Sooner Prodos has cash the sooner they can afford to spare copies to send to backers. Worst thing that can happen is that Prodos have no cash and backers are left with no games. (I contimplated buying a box cheap at retail but couldn't bring myself to fling any more money at AVP. My original pledge was uneasily high and I have doubts that the AVP licence will stick around long.)
On the flip side, just had tracking info for Marrow's Journey:Wrath of Demons and CMON's Rum and Bones. So it appears both will beat Prodos' "soon". I may ask to pick up a box at Prodos' stand at the local con next month.(Provided it hasn't arrived by mid September). I've met the guys on the stand before and know better than to talk about the screw ups.
Alex C wrote: Yep, they seem to be doing a lot of work with KoW and MAS reports they have more product for Wolsung that just came in.
Hopefully this is generating enough funds for them to continue AvP fulfillment. ND should be shipping to us backers in the US soon, right?
And hopefully Fox approves Wave 2 soon, would be nice to have this wrapped up by the end of the year.
I would be happy just to get my wave 1 at this point
Me too! I think it's due imminently (for me, anyway). Prodos had shipped the last US copies to Ninja Division a week or so ago and ND said they'd start shipping when they had all copies in hand.
Joyboozer wrote: What was the estimated shipping date for international again?
I believe it was the first of soon.... Seriously though, they've announced so many different dates and failed them all so far, I wouldn't worry too much about what they say at this point. Proof is in the pudding so they say. When they show up at my house, I'll believe them about shipping.
This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for Friday August 28, 2015
Shipping has been slow. Painfully slow. We get that this is the bane of many of you and that it is hard to understand, believe or trust why this is the case. We are trying to be as open as possible. Sometimes things are just out of our control; 2 prime examples are that the Spanish manufacture of the AvP bases went on holiday for an entire month – with no rhyme nor reason or even consideration that we might try to contact them. We did have a backup plan, the supplier from the UK who supplied our bases for Warzone Resurrection. Great! However, they sent the wrong bases, which have had to be replaced. This is incredibly frustrating, but simply the way things are. Our original manufacturer is back on track and bases have been purchased for Wave 2 and the remaining boxes. They'll be coming in soon.
We have been very focused on getting AvP done and shipped, meanwhile, we have neglected Warzone Resurrection for almost 3 months. We just cannot afford to focus on shipping the KS alone, backers are getting their games, it is just at a slow a steady pace. Please remember we are a business with many other responsibilities that must be met as well. This is to ensure that you all get your games and we continue to operate in the future, allowing us to release all of the awesome things you guys would love to see for AvP, Warzone and everything in between.
The Spanish and German translated copies of the board game will be out in September, we are having an issue getting the option to switch languages types in the pledge manager. We hope to have pledge manager news next week. Of course, we will try to update you guys as soon as we can.
So the burning question everyone asks is where we are at with Backer Fulfillment; out of 2850 total backers we have shipped 1450 board game boxes out; this includes the 600 sent to the US for North American fulfillment. As for the UK backers we have 350 of them left to ship.
We received 400 more game boxes from the assembling company today, they will start shipping on Monday. The next batch of 400 is due at the end of next week if our suppliers can get us the components we need to package them. We are pretty certain this will be the case and we'll do our best to keep you up to date regarding this.
The majority of Wave 2 Add-ons have been approved. We have assigned some staff to start going through the Add-ons checking them for quality and packaging them. Starting next week Add-ons will start shipping with game boxes. There are some items which have not been approved as yet, but we are going to make these a Wave 3 shipment. We think it’s the best way to move this product forwards for you guys and for our business.
Here is the list of models in Wave 2: Alien Queen, Facehuggers, Alien Warriors, Alien Royal Guard, Predalien, Alien Crusher, Power Loader, Colonial Marines Sergeant, Weyland-Yutani Commandos, Sentry Guns, Female Predator, Linn Kurosawa (AvP Arcade), Dutch Schaefer (AvP Arcade), Predator Hellhound, Predator Berserker.
A very loose timetable that we are shooting for with future fulfilments - we are shipping with the intention that everyone has their board game box by mid-October and further intention that everyone has all of Wave 2 shipments sent to backers by mid- November.
In the very near future we will be adding a Blog feature to Prodosgames.com to use for updates, share information and to show previews of things to come. We do read all of our customer feedback.. positive and negative..You have told us that our communication has not been acceptable to all of you guys and we are going to make steps to rectify this, and we would like to thank you for your continued patience.
Many thanks,
Prodos Games LTD
There's also a link to a video which I haven't watched:
So only 350 uk backers left to ship ? Im guessing along with the 50 people who picked their games up from salute that the grand total of uk backers was 400 ? .
They've shipped 1450 copies of the game out ? 600 to the us leaves 850 and that 850 must include the ones sent to retailers .
Ok, so of the 2850 backers they have shipped 1450 boxes? I'm pretty sure a fair amount of us got more than one box each? Or, do they mean they have shipped out 1450 pledges? Oh, and wave 3, oh yeah, can't wait for that! No seriously, I can't wait, ship my damn stuff already!
Prodos: If you're reading this-Do what Mantic does and get every fething body you can get your hands on from Prodos and get them packing!!
They've got all that bloody stock just sat there. Ridiculous.
Or just throw up the white knight flare and summon the superfans for free labor on weekends like Palladium does. They get paid in autographs and pizza!
CURNOW wrote: So only 350 uk backers left to ship ? Im guessing along with the 50 people who picked their games up from salute that the grand total of uk backers was 400 ? .
They've shipped 1450 copies of the game out ? 600 to the us leaves 850 and that 850 must include the ones sent to retailers .
Im gona be 80 by the time this is done
Per the update on July 10th there are 700 UK backers and 300 had shipped at that stage so they managed 50 in one and a half months (or was the information in one of their messages inaccurate remember a lot were delayed by the Calais situation (even though the shipments are sent by air from Germany) are Prodos even checking what they said in previous messages.
Spoiler:
Prodos Games Ltd says:
Hello, here is your AvP:THB update for Friday July 10, 2015
We are looking to increase the number of packages shipping a week, by using a UK based business partner (to be announced) to ship the UK packages, out of the 700 UK backers 300 have already been shipped, once our partner is in place things will speed up, know that we are working on this. Once this partner is in place the Polish facility will be able to focus on other the European and Asian (including Australia) backers. We have already shipped some European backers and the first Australian backers this week.
US backers will have an option to pick-up their AvP board games at Gencon, to be able to pick up your copy at Gencon you must email sales@prodos.co.uk the email must contain your first name, surname and order number, then at pick up you must present an ID with your name on it. All other individual USA and Canadian orders will begin shipping from our US partner (to be announced) following Gencon. All US and Canadian backers will be shipped to backers by September.
September is the reconfigured Retail launch for the USA and Canada. No more boxes will be shipped to US shops before then.
Wave 2 approvals are still pending, but should be sorted out soon.
As always we appreciate your patience and understanding.
Cheers,
Prodos Games LTD
1. We were told the KS Exclusive version could not be KS Exclusive because they needed to order in a quantity that gave a decent price (5K copies if I recall correctly.) But it seems they are ordering small batches of components and assembling sets as the components arrive.
2. Bases. Seriously? They are ordering bases in small lots instead of for the whole shebang? And they didn't have orders with Need By dates put in?
3. As mentioned, no real way to know if their totals are accurate or if they include what went to retailers (and are being sold and shipped ASAP via their own fething web store).
4. Allowing backers to switch to a different language at this stage is going to not work. Folks who already got theirs but want a different language are hosed. Folks now waiting hopefully for them to unfuck the pledge manager may still have their English copies sent while they wait. Prodos fething with the pledge manager yet again instills fear of 'Hey, you didn;t close your pledge manager we opened for you and didn't tell you about, so we couldn't ship your game. So Solly!'
A lot of this reeks of a company with severe cash flow issues. The inability to even order the bases is not a good sign.
Yeah, like switching languages now would be suitable. Hey, Prodos, you should've checked what you can offer shortly after campaign and add it in the PM to choose. Or, like GZ, you come from france? You get the french version. Germany? German.
Now to the update ... Say, aren't facts that turn out false in the end rumours as well? Ah, no, they're lies ... sorry, my bad. English not mother in cheek tongue of mine is. Sorry for that terrible sentence.
A whole company, going on holidays for a month? Yeah, right. And please remember Prodos, we are people that gave you our money roughly one and a half years ago. So plase bare with us, that we are pissed with you and don't care for your excuses anymore.
A third wave? FRAKK, and I thiought that particular line was sort of just sitting there. Now it looks like, wave three was planned over a month ago. Now people, please don't be mad because they haven't peeped about it before, but we all know, Prodos going honest all of a sudden would only result in our heads exploding. We should be thankful for their consideration.
Mid-October and mid-November ... see what he did there? No year mentioned. Smart move.
No, you will not improve on your communication. So, what do I see happening? At least three more times for the PM to be opened and us having to close it again. But just a second ... counting through: Not approved and therefore beig on Wave 3, 4 or whichever: Those other Marines All of the tokens - Eggs, Spears, Android Youngbloods Pred-Ship-Tiles Wargame rules And the 3D scenery
Yaih, Prodos! Mid-November, yeah, right, 2020 at best ...
Prodos: If you're reading this-Do what Mantic does and get every fething body you can get your hands on from Prodos and get them packing!!
They've got all that bloody stock just sat there. Ridiculous.
Or just throw up the white knight flare and summon the superfans for free labor on weekends like Palladium does. They get paid in autographs and pizza!
8-|
Seriously? Even for Palladium that almost sounds as if you can't possibly be serious... They actually did that? Wow. Gobsmacked here
8-|
Seriously? Even for Palladium that almost sounds as if you can't possibly be serious... They actually did that? Wow. Gobsmacked here
Did a quick search to find one of the dozen or more calls for volunteers they put out and found this one. It does mention "trade" in product as well as defacto payment to their credit. I'm not sure if that was in the earlier announcements.
HELP Wanted: Still have a need for volunteers
We are looking for volunteers to help prep, package and ship Robotech® RPG Tactics™ every day and weekend over the next few weeks until they are all out of the warehouse. If you live in the area and are willing and able to help, please contact us at the Palladium office (734-721-2903 tel.). Please do so even if you’ve already let us know you are willing to help. Happy to trade some Palladium product for your help. Thank you.
I mean, seriously. If you want to be optimistic, go for it, no harm done. Me, I'm rather the calculating type. They wanted to be done shipping base game end of Juli. Now it's mid-October. This taken as a baseline results in end of December. Wave 2 could take another six months - because ... maybe I'm nitpicking, but there was no mention the package has been approved as well. And then there's wave 3 ...
As pointed out earlier they (unless there is a language issue) seem to be trying to be clever by saying how many boxes have been shipped to backers not how many backers have been fulfilled.
Interestingly the KS funded with 2093 backers so 757 backers came on after the campaign?
Also how is delivering this update to a closed Facebook page trying to improve communication. Edit I take this bit back I've just had the email through
8-|
Seriously? Even for Palladium that almost sounds as if you can't possibly be serious... They actually did that? Wow. Gobsmacked here
Did a quick search to find one of the dozen or more calls for volunteers they put out and found this one. It does mention "trade" in product as well as defacto payment to their credit. I'm not sure if that was in the earlier announcements.
HELP Wanted: Still have a need for volunteers
We are looking for volunteers to help prep, package and ship Robotech® RPG Tactics™ every day and weekend over the next few weeks until they are all out of the warehouse. If you live in the area and are willing and able to help, please contact us at the Palladium office (734-721-2903 tel.). Please do so even if you’ve already let us know you are willing to help. Happy to trade some Palladium product for your help. Thank you.
wow.
Though as you said that specific help wanted notice does sound rather less crusty than it initially seemed. Downright charming as far as PB's record goes, in fact
I don't know what your opinion is, but I sorta cringe at the thought of a wave 3. They're having trouble shipping now - be it moneywise or not. Two additional waves won't change that and so I'd actually prefer, to get it all in one go ... just my opinion.
JoeRugby wrote: Has anyone heard from Prodos if they are allowing backers to pick up their copies at upcoming shows?
Dragon daze is in Newport in next couple of weeks and if I go that would be cool
I was thinking exactly this. The optimist in me hopes with so many core boxes dispatched to the uk I'm now in the "vocal minority" that hasn't recieved theirs but will do "soon". The pessimist in me thinks to ask to collect from Dragondaze would mean that I could end up missing out on the limited numbers of boxes and be pushed to the back end of fulfilment.
I think no-one would doubt right now that there would be lots of use of the words 'perps', 'hi-ex' and some instant executions carried out. We've gone long beyond the Cubes stage at this point
JohnHwangDD wrote: Question, were people allowed to pledge $1 and then update to the full amount in the PM? If so, those should be treated as retail.
What about people who pledged £XXX and then updated to £XXX + X in the pledge manager?
I think it's pretty clear now that if you were involved with kickstarter at all that Prodos is in no rush to fulfill provided that they can demonstrate that progress is still being made. (Obeying kickstarter rules). Prodos seem pretty switched on who needs to be fulfilled first (and last). Unfortunately kickstarter favours the creators over backers. ks makes money from projects and needs to keep creators sweet. KS is a lovely way to risk other peoples money risk free! (Provided that you can demonstrate the funds were used on the project and the money has now gone there is no obligation of rewards or refunds). Hence I won't be adding a penny to the PM whilst I consider myself to be out of pocket.
My friend runs a gaming store. He can order in (and has done) copies of AVP to sell to his Customers. But like me, has yet to receive his copy from the KS.
I think the problem is less Prodos than crowdfunding.
If a company mismanages a project and finds themselves lacking funds, this will more likely "come to a head" towards the end of the project (or base game) than earlier -- especially if the money originally earmarked for shipping is now gone. At this point, the project has been delayed (because the delays *caused* the cost overruns), and the backers are unhappy, making it unlikely that the creator will ask the backers for more funds. Hence, they'll look for money from another source -- the distributors. As others have suggested, distributors no doubt have a more formal -- and enforceable -- contract than backers, so get the base game before backers. It's more efficient to ship a hundred games to one distributor than one game to each of 100 backers, so the retail stores get the product first.
In the long run, this creates ill-will with the crowdfunding community, but, if a project's been mismanaged enough, it's unlikely the creator will run another crowdfunding project, anyway.
I disagree. Anyway you look at it, this is Prodos' fault. The main problem I have seen with ks, is that they set the goals too low, and therefore can run into the problems you have desicribed. The other part is not having everything ready to go. I realize that we are funding projects that wouldn't otherwise exist, however, certain key parts should be in the bag (or box). Like the rules! This can lead to a long wait for backers while they fix typos, grammar, etc. Set realistic lead times, and have your components ready to go!
At any rate, It is all Prodos' fault. They should have done more research into Fox's approval process. They should have had the core game elements pre-approved, like the rules!, tiles, one of each mini, etc. Things don't run this poorly by accident. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
So, I emailed Prodos on a hunch to reset the password for my PM, and reassure myself that my pledge rewards were locked in.
UNLOCKED.AGAIN!. GOD ING DAMMIT!!!
angelofvengeance wrote: So, I emailed Prodos on a hunch to reset the password for my PM, and reassure myself that my pledge rewards were locked in.
UNLOCKED.AGAIN!. GOD ING DAMMIT!!!
To say I am annoyed would be an understatement.
When was the last time that you locked it? How many more times are they going to do this to us? I just want my stuff and then be done with this horrible horrible ks! My patience has been tried and found wanting!
Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Sep 4 2015
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This is Rumor Control and these are the Facts for Friday September 4, 2015:
Due to issues with Prodos Games work accounts of our team members we will unfortunately be moving from Facebook to a blog on the Prodos Games site for updates in the near future. We will still attempt to share them here and we will definitely send all updates via email.
In October we will be attending Essen Spiel in Germany October 9th-11th and we are stand 2-E175, if you are attending and have not received your wave one shipment you will be able to pick it up there. Although we hope to have all the board games delivered by the time Essen Spiel comes around, we're just saying the option is there! We look forward to meeting many of you at Essen Spiel, this was a great fun show for us and AvP last year we are certain this year will be excellent as well! Rob will, as usual, be trying his hardest to speak German with you! Don't forget, we will have German copies of the game available at the show!
We have physical copies of the German and Spanish versions of AvP on hand. The French version will be a little while longer to get as the cost for the printing of these smaller runs is a lot more than we initially expected. We are still working on the pledge manager so you can switch the language in your KS box, we should have this sorted in the next week or so.
The North American copies of AvP are still on the boat in transit to Ninja Division, once they clear customs and the boxes arrive to Ninja Division they will begin shipping them quickly.
We would like to apologise to all of the backers that received shipping notifications on Aug 10th and 11th that have not received their shipment. It is standard procedure to wait 2 weeks to put in a claim from our end and, as some backers started putting in comments saying they arrived without tracking, we thought nothing of it initially. Obviously, we waited a little bit and eventually saw that there are a number of people who have still not had their KS arrive (Jean-Pierre and Sebastian, we know you guys are waiting!), so we decided that we needed to chase it up. We have since then opened a claim and chased them on the phone. On Monday, we will be going to their depot to find out what is happening exactly, hopefully picking up the stock. However, in the meantime, we will be shipping these again anyway, just to make sure it's resolved one way or another.
No video this week, but some pictures of the translated cards and book from when they hit the warehouse!
Yeah, I saw that and my initial thought was "So, a cash strapped company decides to offer something they did not have to (translated copies) and now whines at the cost of the small print runs. Nice. I wonder how that will effect delivery..."
They really ought to right a book on running a small business. Maybe they can run a KS project to get it published.
CptJake wrote: Yeah, I saw that and my initial thought was "So, a cash strapped company decides to offer something they did not have to (translated copies) and now whines at the cost of the small print runs. Nice. I wonder how that will effect delivery..."
They really ought to right a book on running a small business. Maybe they can run a KS project to get it published.
Maybe, if that book was about running a small business - into the ground! Maybe the book should be a tragic comedy?
Clearly you don't really want your stuff shipped. If you did, you would keep your damned pledge locked.
Lol if you'd said that to me earlier I'd have bitten your head off! haha. All sorted now so I MAY actually see my rewards! In the grim, dark future of soon, there is only promises of delivery
Clearly you don't really want your stuff shipped. If you did, you would keep your damned pledge locked.
Lol if you'd said that to me earlier I'd have bitten your head off! haha. All sorted now so I MAY actually see my rewards! In the grim, dark future of soon, there is only promises of delivery
Don't feel bad. My copy is probably enroute to the US on the Zebu.
I'll just leave our PM as it is until there is word, they are about to start shipping wave two - otherwise I have to lock that dreaded thing three more times ...
Just went through the pics ... WHO translatet that? Just on that card ... I stopped counting at the tenth spelling or comma error.
Just imagine, we offered them translation - I am working full time as a translator, wifey is a lector who can check for errors I might have made ... but no ...
CURNOW wrote: Probably as close as I'm going to come to my pledge this year ...lol
Damn, man! I saw you at GeekFest and I recognised the name on your badge. I thought "I wonder if that's the same Curnow on Dakka" but I'm sure that when I checked previously, your profile didn't mention that you were from Cornwall. I thought it was just a coincidence Yeah, I saw that copy and had much the same reaction you did. And then I saw the sticker price and abandoned any thoughts of buying a box just to have one in hand!
Last month I said I was waiting on Rum&Bones, Journey: Wrath of Kings, KD: Monster & AVP to arrive. (That's a lot of cheddar). Anyways, R&B and Journey arrived and I've had a wave 1 shipping notification from KD:M.
Find it very frustrating seeing the AVP boxes in all good FLGS. Just pack one extra in the shops order and let me pick it up there? Local con coming up which Prodos will be attending, but no mention of them having "copies that Prodos can afford to fulfill pledges with and not needing to sell at retail".
I'll take it all back if I recieve AVP this month, but "soon" is always a month away. I expect the "guy who writes dispatch labels" will take an unforeseen month long holiday next.
PomWallaby wrote: Last month I said I was waiting on Rum&Bones, Journey: Wrath of Kings, KD: Monster & AVP to arrive. (That's a lot of cheddar). Anyways, R&B and Journey arrived and I've had a wave 1 shipping notification from KD:M.
Find it very frustrating seeing the AVP boxes in all good FLGS. Just pack one extra in the shops order and let me pick it up there? Local con coming up which Prodos will be attending, but no mention of them having "copies that Prodos can afford to fulfill pledges with and not needing to sell at retail".
I'll take it all back if I recieve AVP this month, but "soon" is always a month away. I expect the "guy who writes dispatch labels" will take an unforeseen month long holiday next.
They only have 3 people doing QC and packing at Prodos. It's nuts.
If there are only three people packing, they're doing a superb job keeping up with supplying stores and their own webstore. The market is flooded with flgs, webstores, Amazon, eBay, wherever.
There is nothing physicaly different for supplying the backers core boxes, backers are just low priority. Ironically these are or were likely to be the people most interested in the game.
CURNOW wrote: Probably as close as I'm going to come to my pledge this year ...lol
Damn, man! I saw you at GeekFest and I recognised the name on your badge. I thought "I wonder if that's the same Curnow on Dakka" but I'm sure that when I checked previously, your profile didn't mention that you were from Cornwall. I thought it was just a coincidence Yeah, I saw that copy and had much the same reaction you did. And then I saw the sticker price and abandoned any thoughts of buying a box just to have one in hand!
Yeah i was really close to getting one and then chucking mine on ebay if it ever turns up . I was with the short cadian lol
Alpharius wrote: PLEASE NOTE: There is a dedicated SWAP SHOP forum here on Dakka Dakka.
Please note: I did not offer my stuff for sale, I stated I hope I can sell it when I have it. I don't even have my stuff yet, and can't sell it until I do. When I do, I'll be sure to list it here on the Swap Shop.
Moses Bad wrote: I'll just leave our PM as it is until there is word, they are about to start shipping wave two - otherwise I have to lock that dreaded thing three more times ...
Just went through the pics ...
WHO translatet that?
Just on that card ... I stopped counting at the tenth spelling or comma error.
Just imagine, we offered them translation - I am working full time as a translator, wifey is a lector who can check for errors I might have made ... but no ...
care to explain to a non-German speaker? I fully expect the translations to be chock full of errors, but nobody has raised it on facebook yet.
I guess, most people just don't really care, if it's Team Taktiken (wrong) or Team-Taktiken (correct) or Auf Grund (meaning at the bottom of a waterbody) instead of Aufgrund (meaning because of). In German in most cases two nouns are combined with a dash.
They get the general idea and that's enough in most cases.
Besides that, working in that department sort of makes you a bit more attentive when it comes to sentence structure and the whole riff raff.
After two reforms concerning grammar in the written german language, I didn't care anymore ... until I had to for this job.
But frankly, if I'd forward that to the lector, I'd get no more commissions from that particular publisher.
Moses Bad wrote: I guess, most people just don't really care, if it's Team Taktiken (wrong) or Team-Taktiken (correct) or Auf Grund (meaning at the bottom of a waterbody) instead of Aufgrund (meaning because of). In German in most cases two nouns are combined with a dash.
They get the general idea and that's enough in most cases.
Besides that, working in that department sort of makes you a bit more attentive when it comes to sentence structure and the whole riff raff.
After two reforms concerning grammar in the written german language, I didn't care anymore ... until I had to for this job.
But frankly, if I'd forward that to the lector, I'd get no more commissions from that particular publisher.
Sounds expensive to get right. Google Translate function is free and if it's good enough for the internet then it's good enough for Prodos!
Well, you can have it either cheap or good - both is a rare occasion. And obviously they went with cheap.
Just for Fun of it, your sentence via Google translate and my correction underneath
Klingt teuer richtig zu machen. Google Translate -Funktion ist kostenlos und wenn es gut genug für das Internet , dann ist es gut genug für Prodos! Klingt teuer, es richtig zu machen. Die Google-Übersetzungsfunktion ist kostenlos und wenn es gut genug für das Internet ist, dann ist es gut genug für Prodos!
The difference isn't too big, but it's there. Google Translate is like a Baboon on caffeine for two weeks on a row - pretty much useless but for the crudest of things. But I'm preaching to the choir.
Moses Bad wrote: Well, you can have it either cheap or good - both is a rare occasion.
And obviously they went with cheap.
It isn't that is rare, it is just not always the decision made as you can only choose 2 of the 3 methods between Cheap, Good, Fast.
You can do "Cheap" and "Good" but that usually means it will take a lot more time to complete.
You can do "Cheap" and "Fast" but then the quality isn't that good.
You can do "Fast" and "Good" but then it is more expensive.
It looks like they went with "Cheap" and "Fast" which does mean the quality will be lacking. Given that delays already and they need revenue, it was clear they wouldn't choose "Good" as an option.
Just posted as an update on facebook under Jarek's login ...
Hey guys,
I just want to update you, out of step of our, usually quite rigid, weekly updates.
Make of it what you will. We have established that it's quite clear, nothing is enough, unless we actually get your product shipped. That's something we are working on. Sure it's slow, but it needs to be for it to happen and for us to stay around. This whole experience has made us decide that some things simply won't happen again.
1. Facebook
One of those things, unfortunately, has to be that we simply cannot devote our time, in this way, to appearing in public portals (specifically Facebook). This doesn't mean you are not worth our time! We're aware that many want to read between the lines of our actions, comments, etc and that's whjy I'm writing in the way I am... I'm hoping the raw emotion here kind of gets through.
In the grand scheme of things, we're actually a very small company. 30 or so guys, of which only 3 actually have the English skills and knowledge to present information to you is just not enough. We appreciate the support of you all and we want to make it very, very clear that we respect every single one of you; regardless of your stance as you are our pledgers, customers or even just well-wishers. Heck, even the trolls, who may spend time online just to make our lives difficult, they are still a part of the community. I've shaken hands with you guys, wherever I can at events, I've spoken about where we are, what we are feeling and what makes us tick and I take great delight in that!
Sadly, some recent activity has really hit-home the reasons why this way of working, at least while we are shipping the Kickstarter, just isn't possible. We do not have a staff-member that works specifically on answering questions; in the past, we have had people that the community has known are the guys to get hold of. Firstly, Rob (myself), a 'veteran' from the Warzone Resurrection Kickstarter days (I lost a lot of hair back then!). It quickly became too much for me to handle and, as head of sales, I knew that this task just wasn't for me anymore. Every so often, I still get messages and I do deal with them, because I can and a personal, moral, part of me just wants to fix things for people. That's my character. It's been abused in the past by a number of people (to the point where people genuinely questioned my actual existence!) and that has resulted in my pulling out of this task. We then hired Michal Prodosgames, whose account was specifically made not to show his surname as he has an aversion to Facebook and being found there. Annoyingly, due to being reported by an 'unknown individual', he has had to change his account name. Then there is Jim, Jim is our USA salesman, an incredibly valuable member of our team and someone who, in the past, against all odds, has been able to remain level-headed, calm and cool in the face of Kickstarter's most awkward moments. However, this evening, he received some fairly disgusting and personal threats aimed towards him privately; which has led to our emergency writing of this update.
As I am sure you are all aware, enough is enough. We want to say that this IS NOT us burying our head in the sand. We will be contactable. You can PM us on the Alien vs Predator: The Hunt Begins Like page. We will continue to visit Facebook groups, but WE WILL NOT be commenting on any of those groups. We will also continue to look at Beasts of War, we will look at the Lead Adventure forum and we will look at Frothers. Hell, maybe even Dakka Dakka, that well-known cesspit of vitriol and hate!
2. How can we contact Prodos Games then?
You can email us through the usual portals of:
Kickstarter Pledge Queries: Michal.Pawlaczyk@prodos.co.uk Sales/Events planning: rob.alderman@prodos.co.uk Customer Services (Replacement parts): agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk Manufacturing: sales@prodosgames.com Alien vs Predator: The Hunt Begins Like Page
Prodos Games Like Page
Mutant Chronicles Like Page
Our webstore Customer Service Email function
We are ALWAYS happy to respond to your queries and will do everything we can to make sure you are sorted. If one of these emails is not responding according to your expectations, please do contact the like page, or simply email again. There is a very good chance that your message has been missed and then buried. This does happen, sadly; but it is very rarely intentional and quite embarrassing to see that it has occurred when it does.
3. Where will we see updates?
Okay, one of the big mistakes from the start was that we have not made a database of emails from the Kickstarter and the pledges made on our website. That was rather silly of us, lesson learnt. However, the updates will be PUBLICLY available for all to see, warts and all, on our new blog on the website (http://prodosgames.com). You will be able to comment on these. However, it protects our staff from having insults hurled at them, when they are doing the best job they can, under quite dire circumstances, with very little in the way of pay off. Our whole website will be going through a transformation to be more user friendly. The blog will not just be AvP, it will be Warzone, expose some interesting stuff from the industry about manufacturing and what we actually do here. We hope for these updates to be daily.
4. Numbers of shipments:
We hate to disappoint people. We're aware we do disappoint people. Our numbers are disappointingly few. Embarrassingly few. This probably comes from not being particularly 'pro' at giving information and knowing exactly what we 'should' be telling people. Every action has a reaction, and all that. Right now, we are still going with the 1 week making Retail copies, 1 week making Kickstarter copies method we mentioned. This has meant we have been able to clear out our retail orders (including a severely delayed shipment to the USA) and will clear some Kickstarter shipments during this week. Importantly, and in the minds of many pledgers on the FB Group, we have just booked in all of the shipments from the 10th and 11th of August that do not have tracking numbers provided by our Courier service. We are currently working on getting those original shipments, placed on the 10th/11th back or claiming some kind of payment back.
We hope that, by the end of this week, we will also be able to claim that much more has been shipped, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
5. Overall feeling at Prodos Games right now:
Actually, we are becoming more and more aware that reaching for the stars can actually be one's downfall. We are looking at going back to roots a little, and looking for slow-expansion, rather than the rapid expansion we sort of imposed on ourselves. We have 2 truly fantastic licenses here. Mutant Chronicles, which has been a dream to work on since Kickstarter and AvP, which we are incredibly excited to develop beyond the realms of Kickstarter. We've helped a great number of companies and aim to work on strengthening those relationships. We don't want to be the company that gets passed the buck, we want to be the company that is resolute, keeps chugging on against the odds (lets face it, most companies would have given up by now, but we are sure that Rob will somehow stay alive if he keeps taking the happy pills!) and one that has formed really honest relationships with other industry stalwarts. Sure, we want plastic injection, sure we want to be the biggest company in Europe based in this commodity, but really, is that what we will really gain from it at this stage?
A further delayed Kickstarter, a hell of a stressed out team here and genuinely no sleep. That's where we are now and that's not where we want to be. We honestly believe that the decisions made in this update will go a long way to helping us retain our sanity and continue (slowly) getting you the best products, service and designs that we can provide.
Cheers/Na Zdrowie!
Well, hopefully these changes will prove positive and enable the company to continue and grow.
And hopefully once fulfillment is done and dusted, the Prodos guys can get back into a good frame of mind.
Sad to read about that situation with Jim. I've not been the kindest to Prodos in the past but it sounds like some people have taken things way too far there.
Expecting/hoping for half of what you were promised one year later than you were told makes you a hater. It's a common theme amongst the epic badly run campaigns. So is "no refunds".
I know my comments have very often and very deliberately been lees than kind. I am probably on their list of vitriolic haters.
But I do not think I've ever been less than accurate. Don't like being called a liar? Don't lie. Don't like getting called out for breaking promises and for poor communications? Don't break promises and learn to communicate better.
Yup, that's the industry's opinion of Dakka. It's worst than 4Chan.
So to improve its image within the industry, Dakka's community needs to post thousands of borderline porn pics and links to pirated files? That is a very dysfunctional industry.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CptJake wrote: I know my comments have very often and very deliberately been lees than kind. I am probably on their list of vitriolic haters.
But I do not think I've ever been less than accurate. Don't like being called a liar? Don't lie. Don't like getting called out for breaking promises and for poor communications? Don't break promises and learn to communicate better.
I like your solution more. Poor folks sitting on hundreds of massively delayed boxes that were supposed to be in ks backer hands a year earlier can sleep better at night and the ks backers can just play those games instead of looking at folks sit on ks rewards earmarked for people who bought them long after backers pledged.
Yup, that's the industry's opinion of Dakka. It's worst than 4Chan.
So to improve its image within the industry, Dakka's community needs to post thousands of borderline porn pics and links to pirated files? That is a very dysfunctional industry.
Please don't!
I've talked to plenty of 'industry people' who don't have that view of Dakka Dakka at all, so, whatever.
I hope PRODOS was joking, maybe?
Either way, here's hoping they sort out their own mess soon.
Yup, that's the industry's opinion of Dakka. It's worst than 4Chan.
So to improve its image within the industry, Dakka's community needs to post thousands of borderline porn pics and links to pirated files? That is a very dysfunctional industry.
Please don't!
I've talked to plenty of 'industry people' who don't have that view of Dakka Dakka at all, so, whatever.
I hope PRODOS was joking, maybe?
Either way, here's hoping they sort out their own mess soon.
I doubt Prodos was joking - TPTB at Palladium and the Pod have echoed similar sentiments.
remember a lot were delayed by the Calais situation (even though the shipments are sent by air from Germany) are Prodos even checking what they said in previous messages.
ING DAMMIT!!! 
