Just was wondering what people's opinions on this are at the moment, just in case we see some interesting answers.
Personally, I would say GK codex.

"All of them are equally OP"

Haha, what does that mean exactly?

Surely that would mean that none of them are overpowered as they are all equal?

Unless you mean that the current codexes have units which destroy too much too quickly?

 Marsden wrote:
"All of them are equally OP"

Haha, what does that mean exactly?

Surely that would mean that none of them are overpowered as they are all equal?

Unless you mean that the current codexes have units which destroy too much too quickly?

It's mostly a joke answer, but you can take it as that, yes. Could just be used to say that they're all unbalanced but not particularly OP though

Tyranids, 100% because of Nidzilla.

 Marsden wrote:
"All of them are equally OP"

Haha, what does that mean exactly?

Surely that would mean that none of them are overpowered as they are all equal?

Unless you mean that the current codexes have units which destroy too much too quickly?

Quite the opposite. It is the only true answer any self-respecting Wargamer can give.

If you've ever lost a game to Grey Knights, Grey Knights surely must be OP.

If you played for some time and eventually lost a game to pretty much every Codex out there, you come to realize that they all must be OP.

If they weren't, how could you have lost?

I voted Eldar are OP because that's my army and I'm trying to be fluffy.

All of them are balanced to me, some are just more 'balanced' then others. Necrons arn't OP, but are a well made codex which takes advantage of 6th ed. But all armies have a rock to their scizzors, necron air force is beaten by imperial air cav while both are beaten by sky fire spam. Which in turn is beaten by horde.

All army lists fall into one such catagory, all catagories have an oppersite army list which wins. Some armies just fit into each catagory better then others. Horde marines wont every be as good as horde orks, because orks are better hordes.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
All of them are balanced to me, some are just more 'balanced' then others. Necrons arn't OP, but are a well made codex which takes advantage of 6th ed. But all armies have a rock to their scizzors, necron air force is beaten by imperial air cav while both are beaten by sky fire spam. Which in turn is beaten by horde.

All army lists fall into one such catagory, all catagories have an oppersite army list which wins. Some armies just fit into each catagory better then others. Horde marines wont every be as good as horde orks, because orks are better hordes.

I'm so bitter I picked scissors...

There are a few that you can consider OP right now. These are what are the 'power builds' right now. Any codex that can produce them you can argue are OP.
1) Blob Guard backed up by Marines.
2) Necron Air.
3) Heldrake backed CSM
4) Very fast moving Turn 2 assault lists (beast packs, daemons, orks)
5) 'Nid psychic choir
Each builds has at least one hard counter. Is it far to say the Necron air build is better than the DE/Eldar beast pack build? Both have hard counters, and both will tear up specific builds.

The Codex that GW still refuses to release, because it is so OP it retroactively destroys armies, even if you've not yet arrived at the table.

Codex: Squats.

>.>

IG. Vendettas alone make them win this poll, but in general, they can just spam everything you'll ever need.

One problem with this one-army conception is that many uber-competitive lists are rocking allies now. Wolves by themselves, may not be the top dog so to speak, but with Imperial Guard allies they're far tougher to crack.

With single armies, my vote goes to IG.

The correct answer is "any army that allies with tau to bring broadsides".

Necrons, no contest.

They are built to take the most advantage of 6E's core rules, and mitigate the changes from 5th more than any other army, moreso than even the actual 6E books.



They've got excellent flyers in an edition that pushes flyers and their flyer transport ignores all the bad/awkward things about being a flyer transport.

Their ground vehicles have AV13 shields+always-on-Jink which makes them (largely) immune to the multi-shot mid-strength weapons that wreak so much havoc on otherwise lighter vehicles, while at the same time having lots of weapons that can remove hull points regardless of strength in large numbers and en-masse.

They can take more advantage of, and manipulate, Night Fight than any other army in the game and Night Fight plays a larger role than it ever has before and appears in every mission.

They take great advantage of the new character rules, particularly with regards to shooting and when it comes to Challenges in conjunction with Mindshackle scarabs.

They have lots of weapons that make outstanding SnapShots, with units snapshotting at BS1 with Tesla weapons putting out an average number of shots equal to that of a BS3 units and when Twin Linked equal to that of a BS8 unit.

Their CC units suffered the least of anyone's as a whole since they relied neither on transports nor assaulting from reserves (and if anything got better, with longer average and maximum charge distances and changes to the Beast unit type on Scarabs).


No army is as well built to 6E's core mechanics as Necrons are, and it shows. Other armies have their strong suits or broken units, but no army fits the glove of 6E as a whole the way Necrons do.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

They are built to take the most advantage of 6E's core rules, and mitigate the changes from 5th more than any other army, moreso than even the actual 6E books.

Since Ward is credited prominently in the 6th ed rules, isn't it likely that the 6th ed rules changes were at least influenced towards straight buffing his pet Necrons? It wasn't necessarily shaped to 6th so much as 6th was shaped to it.


I wish I'd answered Tau, just to confuse people.

It's possible, I don't know either way, it's just that the Necrons seems tailor made for 6th, while at least the first couple actual 6E books (haven't read the daemon book yet so can't comment) still largely feel like they were made for a previous design paradigm with a couple 6E features bolted-on instead of actually being built around the 6E rules.

ASFAIK Dark Angels are meh, Necrons are good. How are CSM and Daemons?

I really want to slap anyone who answers Space Wolves. My fave codex has been bent over repeatedly, and shown the business end of a chainsword.

My vote would be 'Crons as well. They seem to have the most efficient, and reliable codex on the market right now. Never getting screwed on your psychic powers is surely nice as well.

Damn, 6th is terrible...

 Amaya wrote:
ASFAIK Dark Angels are meh, Necrons are good. How are CSM and Daemons?

Daemons I'm not sure, CSM's feel like a 4th edition paradigm book with a Warlord table and some 6E USR's bolted on for kicks and giggles, it's primary bright point for most is its rather ridiculous flyer.

Daemons have some strong units, some great options and are very dense, in that their units have all sorts of interactions with each other to boost one another. Tempered with an element of random that isn't to everyone's taste, although the negatives can be mitigated with army selection somewhat.

Alas, while GK exist and one or two other prominent builds for other armies remain popular, they'll struggle to be top tier.

Still looking forward to fielding mine for the first time though.

Kinda surprised that IG is considered up there, but I guess Valkyrie spam would be really OP right now.

'Crons and IG are powerful at the moment. Having played against the 'Crons they're the freshest in my memory. I can not remember the exact unit my friend used, some sort of storm lord royal court, but it was painful.

I am quite surprised to see Necrons as the highest vote and not CSM or Blood Angels.

Rather odd and interesting.

Vaktathi wrote:CSM's feel like a 4th edition paradigm book

So, I've only taken the briefest of skims over the new demons codex. Someone was also there to tell me a little bit about them. They were talking about how you have the different levels of gifts... things, and how you had a list of things that you could spend points on to make that character better.

I said, "so, they've brought back wargear?" and the person said yes.

It does seem kind of strange...

The only thing I really see OP at this current moment is Airforce spam and Wraith Spam.
Otherwise I don't really see how Necrons are really overpowered.

They still suffer from fighting high T and lots of long ranged stuff since nothing is really long ranged for them that's cost-effective.

How are Necrons even close to winning this? Obvioulsy Blood Angels running Meph...

 Makutsu wrote:
The only thing I really see OP at this current moment is Airforce spam and Wraith Spam.
Otherwise I don't really see how Necrons are really overpowered.

They still suffer from fighting high T and lots of long ranged stuff since nothing is really long ranged for them that's cost-effective.

I did spell it out above. Great flyers with rules that take the hazard out of flyer transports, far more resistance to Hull Point destruction (av13 shields and Jink means they don't care about heavy bolters, multilasers and only minimally care about autocannons, their basic transport gets an extra HP just for giggles) than the other races and an amazing ability to inflict them, astoundingly capable snapshot abilities, excellent ability to take advantage of new character rules (character hit allocation, mindshackle scarabs), CC units that largely gained from 6E where most others lost out, ability to manipulate the now-everpresent Night Fight via Stormlord and Crypteks, etc.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I am quite surprised to see Necrons as the highest vote and not CSM or Blood Angels.

Rather odd and interesting.

Blood Angels? They got rather toned down with the assault and vehicle changes along with the change to Furious Charge. CSM's aren't really any better than they were before (some units got better, some got worse, lots of mediocre stuff in the book) with the exception that they now have a ridiculous MEQ hunting flyer.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I am quite surprised to see Necrons as the highest vote and not CSM or Blood Angels.

Rather odd and interesting.

CSM is a mid tier book by itself, and only used as a primary detachment if you want multiple helldrakes at this point. Work best when allied up with IG or demons.

Blood Angels are dead competitively, weak scoring, massive nerfs to FnP, FC, assault, mephiston and vehicles cut their balls off....at best they aren't in the bottom third, but are jousting with Black Templars for the weakest MeQ army ATM.

IG, SW, necrons, pre-codex post WD-update Demons, and GK round out your top tier. Now that Demons got their new book, I have no idea where they will end up.

I will never, for the life of me, understand the fear of Grey Knights and 'Cron air. To date, I've drawn about one game with them, and always won the rest. Now Tau, that's an army I'm scared of.

Yeah, blood angels WERE way overpowered, and then they got flushed along with other assault armies. Now they're the DE of SM, rather than the SM army that just breaks all the rules to its advantage.

And the arks for necron aren't the worst of it. The command barge only has 3HP, but it still has the AV13 and jink, AND the overlord inside can instantly fix lost HP by turning them into wounds on himself. Put another way, they have 5HP, and are AV13. On a fast skimmer that comes with a S10 Ap1 close combat weapon that the dude doesn't have to get out of the vehicle to use. I'd gladly take a necron player bringing more fliers if it meant that they didn't get to take any of those...

I still don't get it. S10 AP1, but that's just one wound. It's not as if it will instant kill anything, what with most troops being T6.

Oh wait, you don't play 'nids. HAHAHAHA! (J/k)

Nah, seriously. It is a bit scary. But don't forget jink is a cover save (a fair number of weapons deny that), and you can take an Aegis defence line now. So it's not so bad. If you camp some psykers with Div. near the skyfire weapons, 'cron Air is a lot less lethal.

Tyranidfreek01 wrote:
I still don't get it. S10 AP1, but that's just one wound. It's not as if it will instant kill anything, what with most troops being T6.

Oh wait, you don't play 'nids. HAHAHAHA! (J/k)

Nah, seriously. It is a bit scary. But don't forget jink is a cover save (a fair number of weapons deny that), and you can take an Aegis defence line now. So it's not so bad. If you camp some psykers with Div. near the skyfire weapons, 'cron Air is a lot less lethal.

Skyfire weapons are relatively rare and are limited in availability, divination isn't available to everyone, and few weapons capable of hurting AV13 or that have Skyfire ignore cover saves (bar the Hydra, which still can only hope for glances against the AV13 skimmers). A single Aegis gun isn't exactly the scariest thing in the world.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I've blown up my share of necron vehicles with lascannons and meltaguns (because while they're AV13, they're also open-topped, so pretty susceptible to being killed by penetrating hits). The problem is that things like lascannons and meltaguns are the only things that have any serious chance of hurting them, especially before you start getting your face all full of warscythe.

Put another way, necrons in 6th are like necrons in 4th. You have to pack your lists with special anti-necron weapons because nothing else will cut it.

Black Templars are so OP that they aren't even part of the poll!

On a more sane note, how are BA anywhere near as bad as Templars?

Well, I went for Tau, mainly because my mate and I got bent over and seriously abused on seperate occasions by an army of 3 hammerheads and 3 x 4 suits with dual everything. The Hammerheads were rocking 3+ cover saves and could ignore terrain, while plasma with no gets hot just ruined everything I had.

that was my CSM and my mate's Space Puppies 2k armies.

Admittedly the list was not designed to go against vehicles, plus I made some tactical errors. But that's just such a huge amount of T6-10 shooty, even if I had gone broken org heavy, must of them would be blown up 1st turn.

I think I need daemon allies to DS into him. CSM just can't get across the board quick enough. turn 3 I had 2 units left (helchicken had just arrived and some troops cowering in the corner with their L9).

Though none of my guys have GK and the Guard and Cron friends ain't used to their armies yet.

But anyone not gunlining Tau is doing it wrong.

I voted GK but actually cronz.

I voted Necrons, as it's the codex with access to the most overpowered lists, not factoring in allies (and possibly still top dog factoring in allies) While the French Bakery of Doom has it's counters, a Wrathwing army with a strong air-force is very powerful and difficult to counter with a standard, all-comers list.

Crons take the top spot with guard coming in 2nd. Airforce is nearly unkillable at this point except for other flier armies. If you can bring both anti-inf and anti-tank with fliers, you can wipe almost any army off the board.

The whole cron airforce "yeah, im going to move 24, drop guys 6, then shoot them out to 12 with haywire and good anti-inf" bs means you wont have vehicles around turn 2-3 unless you sit them at the back of your table. Even if you do, the doom scythe will still draw lines across the board, blowing up whatever you tried to save. Did i mention all those transports have anti-light vehicle and anti-horde weapons also? And the ability to ignore the problems with crashing fliers for passengers.

Vendetta+Vulture guard is close behind. Being able to pop anything bar large terminator squads (who takes those these days?) the turn you come on, then proceed to continue doing so for the rest of the game with very little chance of being killed is pretty annoying. Add in all the other goodies guard get, such as cheap special weapons, accurate deepstrike meltas, magically appearing det packs, and cheap ability to run lots of troops give guard a huge advantage to those who have the money to run that kind of list.

Behind that? SW are still strong, but the cheap missle spam of 5th is less effective in 6th. GH, LW, and TWC are still as effective as ever, but the changing meta to a more infantry-focused concentration means that SW dont have as many of the cards as they did in 5th.

Nids are a wrench that gets thrown into a few lists. They out-tank some lists, but get obliterated by many more. Strong vs crons, BA, leafblower guard, eldar gunline. Weak vs DE, air guard, eldar harlequin spam, SW, GK, or armies allying in portions of the above.

I think it's interesting to note that orks are thus far undisputedly not considered OP
Though that could be something to do with the poll only allowing your top choice of OP....

Anyways I find that fact interesting. Orks can get some pretty nasty lists right up in your face by turn two, and they can spam so much stuff that enemy manouverability is almost impossible. (I don't think they're OP, btw, but nobody seems to really be factoring them in ).

What strikes me the most is the difference between the top dogs and the others.
From what I recall, in whole 5th edition there was never such a distinct leap between most voted OP armies and others. It was kinda smoother, not such a huge spike.
Right now we have first, second, third place and literally the rest not being even close to top 3.

One will also notice that the #1 spot has more than twice as many votes than #2, while the gap between #2 and #3 is nowhere near as pronounced, which is also telling in how each of the top are perceived relative to each other.

Also it should be noted

Orks =/= OP

Necrons are a bit ridiculous in some areas. IG and Gk still do some crazy things.

But mostly a few things could fix this

1. Necrons raise flyer points by 15-25%. Forgot one thing REMOVE MSS
2. GK remove Warp Quake, tighten up the inquistorial warband shenaningans.
3. IG Vendettas 230 pts (sorry but that is about what they should be compared to other flyers IMO) Also remove blobs leave them as separate squads. (Fluff portion) Put in some rules for Traitor guard, and fewer plasma guns in the army they are uncommon supposedly eveery tom dick and harry shouldn't have one. Meltas on the other hand are just fine.

Also interesting to note is that Matt Ward has written two of the top three OP codecies, and that all of them belong to the IOM.

Selym wrote:
Also interesting to note is that Matt Ward has written two of the top three OP codecies, and that all of them belong to the IOM.

Really the Necrons are part of the Imperium. Do tell.

 captain collius wrote:

Selym wrote:
Also interesting to note is that Matt Ward has written two of the top three OP codecies, and that all of them belong to the IOM.

Really the Necrons are part of the Imperium. Do tell.

They ally with the BA, but I meant that the other two were. Writing fail...

I still place certain guard, nercon and grey knight setups as the top.

As for the worst book overall, probably nercons.

Necron and IG cause of Flyer Spam. Cron is only higher than IG cause its much cheaper to get their flyers (IG Vendetta are gonna set you back at least $100 each unless you convert)

Most broken vehicle: chimeras
Most broken unit: wraiths, vets
Most broken flyer: vendetta, night scythe
Most broken wargear: mss, runes of f you psykers
Most broken characters: necron lord with mss
Most broken transport: night scythe

Kind of sums that up pretty well

 Formosa wrote:
Most broken vehicle: chimeras
Most broken unit: wraiths, vets
Most broken flyer: vendetta, night scythe
Most broken wargear: mss, runes of f you psykers
Most broken characters: necron lord with mss
Most broken transport: night scythe

Kind of sums that up pretty well

Seems legit.

Selym wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Selym wrote:
Also interesting to note is that Matt Ward has written two of the top three OP codecies, and that all of them belong to the IOM.

Really the Necrons are part of the Imperium. Do tell.

They ally with the BA, but I meant that the other two were. Writing fail...

Its okay i just wanted an opportunity to say "do tell".

The weight people judge armies by flyers, in some cases almost exclusively, is interesting, and most telling indeed. Nobody seems to care how much armor you can field, how many scoring units you can bring, how much you can take advantage of psychic powers or how fast an army can be, but rather it's flyers and their ability to deal with them that seems to define

 Formosa wrote:
Most broken vehicle: chimeras
Most broken unit: wraiths, vets
Most broken flyer: vendetta, night scythe
Most broken wargear: mss, runes of f you psykers
Most broken characters: necron lord with mss
Most broken transport: night scythe

Chimeras? Really? Also, Vets? Vets and Chimeras work well together, but without each other aren't what they are together, and Chimeras are significantly less useful and *far* less survivable in 6E.

Wow, it's kind of a pleasant surprise that the time has finally come where Space Wolves aren't the uber-OP fest.

It's pretty funny that Necrons went from "kind of competitive if you abuse the hell out of certain poorly worded outdated rules" to "roflstomp everything".

I'd say imperial guard, but purely as allies to a marine book. They do thing's together that take away the weaknesses of guard armies. Guard are meant to suffer from low morale units, and giving them ATSKNF, takes away their biggest weakness. It's like giving all ork's 3+ armour, it would take away their biggest weakness of being squishy.

 Ailaros wrote:
I mean, don't get me wrong, I've blown up my share of necron vehicles with lascannons and meltaguns (because while they're AV13, they're also open-topped, so pretty susceptible to being killed by penetrating hits). The problem is that things like lascannons and meltaguns are the only things that have any serious chance of hurting them, especially before you start getting your face all full of warscythe.

Put another way, necrons in 6th are like necrons in 4th. You have to pack your lists with special anti-necron weapons because nothing else will cut it.

...lascannons are special anti-necron weapons now? O_o

 Amaya wrote:
It's pretty funny that Necrons went from "kind of competitive if you abuse the hell out of certain poorly worded outdated rules" to "roflstomp everything".

Consider yourself sigged.

necrons are just rediculoussly under costed on some awesome air units, that complement very effective, troops that are also pretty cheap for what they do,

add to this that when you play crons you can basically throw out the whole rule book because when you play crons it feels like im playing a totally different game,

why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

As a Daemon player, I voted Grey Knights.

While Warp Quake isn't an outright auto-win button anymore, the GK codex is still nothing but a giant Trolling of Daemon players. No book should ever be an outright hard-counter to another entire book!

Even with list tailoring to specifically take-on Knights, it's still a massive uphill battle for Daemons. Just not fun in the least.
I'd rather spend 2 hours having my finger nails pulled out while hanging upside down by my eyeballs than face another pointless 20min waste-of-time playing against Derp Knights...

 IHateNids wrote:
why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

Pretty much, yeah. It's frustrating being unable to counter some of the things in the necron book.

It's annoying as hell to kill something, and it still has a chance to come back to life. It's like "Okay, you can stop shooting now, but it might not be dead". It would have been infinitely less annoying if resurrection protocols was a saving throw of sorts, so that you could keep firing at something until you KNOW it's dead.

It's an uncounterable mechanic, and it's annoying as hell to play against.

Don't even get me started on the AP1 melee weapons at initiative, or the MSS.

The way to counter rez protocal, is to focus fire on unit's. If you kill the whole unit, they can't come back.

Yeah, that's hard, which is why they are so strong, but if you only shoot a little at each squad, it will do far less damage than focussing and totally destroying one squad.

Initiative is only 2. MSS Ill give you though...

also, if I may, the biggest, most-complained about unit in the CronDex dosent have RP.

 IHateNids wrote:
Initiative is only 2. MSS Ill give you though...

also, if I may, the biggest, most-complained about unit in the CronDex dosent have RP.

Can't give flyers RP thankfully.

 IHateNids wrote:
why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

except that you can wipe out the entire unit, and then the character with EL allows for RP, not to mention it wastes a lot of firepower when you have to shoot at one guy standing just to make sure his 5-10 buddies dont get back up.

I remember when you could get around RP with instand death, and they should have kept it like that,
now its just a super charged FnP

RP isnt even the uber cheese, its the rediculously good, under costed flyers, with crazy rules that allow units to never get hurt in them, and lets them pop out at 24" and still move/shoot normally
no other army has a (almost) army wide rule better then FnP, no other army has flyer transports that actually make the unit inside invincible, let alone for such a cheap points cost.

and MSS... enough said







Automatically Appended Next Post:
thankfully forgeworld is releasing another awesome flyer to help the under powers necron air force.

Hmm... Every army now has at least one vote, which at minimum proves that there are some things that each army just cannot handle.
I find it interesting that there are now two votes for Orks as an OP army, they lead me to believe that those votes were jokes, because the ork codex's units + combinations have pretty good counters in all codicies (footslog being the easiest to counter unless you brought a lot of anti armour, and they went all boyz, with every 10th boy having a rokkit, or added PK nobz w/painboy on bikes, which is one b*tch of a unit).

I am a LITTLE curious why guard is running so strong. Yes, vendettas are good, but a single undercosted unit does not an overpowered codex make.

As vaktathi notes, necron fits 6th ed like a glove, with most of its units and play styles optimized for this rules edition. Take your vendetta blinders off and tell me, what else about guard is overpowered? Is it infantry platoons? Russes? any of the elites choices? any non-vendetta FA options?

I'd certainly put GK above IG. 6th ed is about MSU, which GK can do cheaper than guard, (and, I'd say better due to wargear options) thanks to henchmen. GK is a psychic army, and psychic powers got way better in 6th edition. GK have always relied on mid-strength weapons to do their killing, and you can now glance vehicles to death. Close combat got a lot tricker, but GK can shunt, etc. etc. It seems like GK much better fits the changes to 6th ed than guard does.

For guard? It's just a single model, and it's becoming more and more counterable as more things get skyfire and flakk missiles and fliers of their own.

I think for Guard is the case that you can bring 3 of (arguably) the best, most versatile tank in the game outside of apocalypse in a single FOC slot.

You can also do this with Hellhounds (wich are unbelievably annoying to Necron Warriors) and pretty much the best Artillery vehicle in the game.

Vendettas just happen to be something that is used most often, as a lot of people who bought the models because they fitted in lists/were needed for a regiment/the models are awesome now find those models to be even better at their task, because of the Flyer rule.

Marbo is annoying though, he will always get you a victory point

 Vaktathi wrote:

The weight people judge armies by flyers, in some cases almost exclusively, is interesting, and most telling indeed. Nobody seems to care how much armor you can field, how many scoring units you can bring, how much you can take advantage of psychic powers or how fast an army can be, but rather it's flyers and their ability to deal with them that seems to define

 Formosa wrote:
Most broken vehicle: chimeras
Most broken unit: wraiths, vets
Most broken flyer: vendetta, night scythe
Most broken wargear: mss, runes of f you psykers
Most broken characters: necron lord with mss
Most broken transport: night scythe

Chimeras? Really? Also, Vets? Vets and Chimeras work well together, but without each other aren't what they are together, and Chimeras are significantly less useful and *far* less survivable in 6E.

Ok I dont mind explaining.
Chims: stat wise not too bad, it's the ease in which you can still spam this unit, compare it to every other transport option out there and it wins hands down, with one notable exception..night scythe.
Vets: same as above, these are so cheap and spamable they need a slight nerf, 3 meltas, 3 plasmas etc, only allow 1 special in this unit and watch people cry.

easysauce wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

except that you can wipe out the entire unit, and then the character with EL allows for RP, not to mention it wastes a lot of firepower when you have to shoot at one guy standing just to make sure his 5-10 buddies dont get back up.

Except you can't use RP for the rest of the unit if all that's left is a character..and it's no different than how you've always had to shoot necron units - shoot the entire thing down before you move to the next.

I remember when you could get around RP with instand death, and they should have kept it like that,
now its just a super charged FnP

Back when it was a 4+ instead of a 5+ and ID didn't matter anyway since there was always at least one lord nearby with the old AoE rez orbs? Sure, I'll trade for that if you want to throw your AT weapons at my infantry instead of my vehicles.

RP isnt even the uber cheese, its the rediculously good, under costed flyers, with crazy rules that allow units to never get hurt in them, and lets them pop out at 24" and still move/shoot normally
no other army has a (almost) army wide rule better then FnP, no other army has flyer transports that actually make the unit inside invincible, let alone for such a cheap points cost.

While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board, which almost guarantees they are no longer a threat to your objectives.

and MSS... enough said

Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

thankfully forgeworld is releasing another awesome flyer to help the under powers necron air force.

And it costs how many points? And does what exactly? The only thing we know about it is what it looks like and that it costs over $100.


Now...all that said, necrons are still deserving of the vote for most OP codex out there. It's packed with so many under-costed units/wargear, it's not even funny.

 Ailaros wrote:
I am a LITTLE curious why guard is running so strong. Yes, vendettas are good, but a single undercosted unit does not an overpowered codex make.

As vaktathi notes, necron fits 6th ed like a glove, with most of its units and play styles optimized for this rules edition. Take your vendetta blinders off and tell me, what else about guard is overpowered? Is it infantry platoons? Russes? any of the elites choices? any non-vendetta FA options?

I'd certainly put GK above IG. 6th ed is about MSU, which GK can do cheaper than guard, (and, I'd say better due to wargear options) thanks to henchmen. GK is a psychic army, and psychic powers got way better in 6th edition. GK have always relied on mid-strength weapons to do their killing, and you can now glance vehicles to death. Close combat got a lot tricker, but GK can shunt, etc. etc. It seems like GK much better fits the changes to 6th ed than guard does.

For guard? It's just a single model, and it's becoming more and more counterable as more things get skyfire and flakk missiles and fliers of their own.

I play IG and GK, some orks too now,

when all I want to do is win, IG every time, for the last 3 editions, you can just put so much on the table that as long as your dice somewhat average out you are golden. with guard its never about a single model, its about having multiples of everything and still having pts left, 3 dettas or more depending on pts with scoring units and a solid gun line will win me plenty of games. Id say the two are even, if not edge guard, but that may just be because ive played, and won, far more games for far longer with them.



the other codex's will be updated to work with today's rules and even out, except for necrons,

necrons are severely underpowered, especially in the air department, so I predict they will get some more air units to balance that out and make them competitive.

Maelstrom808 wrote:


While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board, which almost guarantees they are no longer a threat to your objectives.

To be fair it's still infinitely better than being destroyed, and means they can secure/reinforce your own objectives, and often there are enough of them that they still have plenty of opportunity to get to objectives.

and MSS... enough said

Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair it's still infinitely better than being destroyed, and means they can secure/reinforce your own objectives, and often there are enough of them that they still have plenty of opportunity to get to objectives.

I agree that it is better, and that it allows for reinforcement on your own objectives, but it is still a drawback that forces the cron player to readjust his strategy mid-game. How big of an adjustment boils down to how many units got shot down, and what the composition of his forces were like. It's not like the cron player just shrugs off the transport going down.

2+/3++ HQ's with S7 AP1 Amourbane weapons? I doubt it, they just wouldn't auto-win most challenges. They'd still be pretty solid.

Except they are I2, so pretty much any good CC unit that isn't entirely based on using I1 weapons will tear them apart before they get to do much, and with all the gauss, the armourbane isn't going to matter all that much unless you get into CC with a walker (in which case, you've already screwed up somewhere along the way).

RP isnt even the uber cheese, its the rediculously good, under costed flyers, with crazy rules that allow units to never get hurt in them, and lets them pop out at 24" and still move/shoot normally
no other army has a (almost) army wide rule better then FnP, no other army has flyer transports that actually make the unit inside invincible, let alone for such a cheap points cost.

While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board, which almost guarantees they are no longer a threat to your objectives.

---really? coming on from reserves instead of the whole squad dying is a pretty big difference, esp when its only 3 or 4th turn, and that unit's only 18" from the center of the board since it moves 6" after it comes on. Most games will have some objectives in my zone and some in his, or center where they are still going to get shot at.

there is 0 risk to take a unit in the scythe, where as other flyers are death traps if shot down, and cant go zooming 24" into the back field to deploy a non scattering, non snap shoting unit,

other flyers dont do this, and are more expensive.

and MSS... enough said

Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

----I dont agree they would be trash with out it, lords have a decent stat line and decent weapons, they now have a coin flip chance to beat ANY model in the game as well, so the one thing thats supposed to be weak in the army is actually pretty good.
where as before lords trash other "cc" weak armies like guard, tau, now they can flip a coin to trash any tricked out character/monstrouscreature because they cannot "stop hitting themselves"

they were only supposed to be decent in CC not able to take on anything with a good chance to win.

its already one of the best shooty/zoomy armies... all thats left is CC, and they were already better then tau or guard in that respect.

HQ's are mandatory, and lords fit the bill and are usefull and unlock useful things, thats hardly a tax... thats paying for something.

100pts tax for the ability to have a cryptex jump out of a 24" zooming flyer with a squad of death marks move 6" in with that template staff wounding a 2+'s ap 2, and there are more fun things to do with royal courts as well.

a 30" 2+ to wound ap 2 template weapon? and a valuable HQ choice for 100pts you say? its a deal every time already.

add to this res orbs and other options its even more attractive...

add MSS and now every model in the game has at least a 50% chance to lose right off the bat, let alone to attacks.

MSS is utterly ludicrous. It is a cheap, spammable item that has 50% chance per turn auto-winning against a Bloodthirster. Even if it costed hundred points and was limited to one per army it would still be too good. It is the single most broken thing in the game.

easysauce wrote:
---really? coming on from reserves instead of the whole squad dying is a pretty big difference, esp when its only 3 or 4th turn, and that unit's only 18" from the center of the board since it moves 6" after it comes on. Most games will have some objectives in my zone and some in his, or center where they are still going to get shot at.

there is 0 risk to take a unit in the scythe, where as other flyers are death traps if shot down, and cant go zooming 24" into the back field to deploy a non scattering, non snap shoting unit,

other flyers dont do this, and are more expensive.

Yes it's cheaper than it should be, I never argued that or that the 24" drop capability was strong. But saying that there is 0 risk in getting your night scythe shot down is just flat wrong which is what I was addressing. Is it far less of a disadvantage? Of course, no one is going to dispute that, but it can still mean the difference between a win and a draw/loss, which is all I was pointing out. I still think it needs about a 30% cost increase. Also keep in mind that the other flyer transports are generally better armed, better armored (arguably considering living metal), and can hover.

----I dont agree they would be trash with out it, lords have a decent stat line and decent weapons, they now have a coin flip chance to beat ANY model in the game as well, so the one thing thats supposed to be weak in the army is actually pretty good.
where as before lords trash other "cc" weak armies like guard, tau, now they can flip a coin to trash any tricked out character/monstrouscreature because they cannot "stop hitting themselves"

they were only supposed to be decent in CC not able to take on anything with a good chance to win.

its already one of the best shooty/zoomy armies... all thats left is CC, and they were already better then tau or guard in that respect

Yes, they can beat any model in the game...which is why you don't get into CC against a lord with your tricked out model. You get into CC with them with a dedicated CC unit with a decent model count and you crush them or at worst tar pit them. Send your tricked out CC monster against something that isn't specifically built to destroy it.

Lords are not what makes the cron army strong in CC, wraiths and scarabs do that. Lords with MSS are what makes Necrons strong against Characters, and that's a big difference.

HQ's are mandatory, and lords fit the bill and are usefull and unlock useful things, thats hardly a tax... thats paying for something.

As I said before, just about any I2 cc character is going to be fairly dead weight unless you are bringing something that negates that I2. Aside from MSS, there is nothing else to make it worthwhile.

100pts tax for the ability to have a cryptex jump out of a 24" zooming flyer with a squad of death marks move 6" in with that template staff wounding a 2+'s ap 2, and there are more fun things to do with royal courts as well.

a 30" 2+ to wound ap 2 template weapon? and a valuable HQ choice for 100pts you say? its a deal every time already.

I was wrong before, it's a 90pt tax, but still that's a 90 point tax for a 225pt unit (that probably doesn't get to use it's super special 2+ To Wound if it's flyer gets shot down). I'll find better uses for those points thank you very much.

add to this res orbs and other options its even more attractive...

The orb that statistically will only pay for itself when using a 20 man warrior blob?

add MSS and now every model in the game has at least a 50% chance to lose right off the bat, let alone to attacks.

Again....don't attack it with your uber model. There are usually better options.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

add MSS and now every model in the game has at least a 50% chance to lose right off the bat, let alone to attacks.

Again....don't attack it with your uber model. There are usually better options.

Pretty difficult when the other player is running a Destroyer Lord + Wraithstar...

I play Necrons and Grey Knights and my friend would certainly say my Grey Knights are over powered

He plays chaos and i think his heldrakes are overpowered,
although he does bring 3

I think every army has something a little overpowering and when someone takes advantage of that its just strategy

I couldnt pick just 1 anyways, i havent played every army so i wouldnt know

 Macok wrote:
What strikes me the most is the difference between the top dogs and the others.
From what I recall, in whole 5th edition there was never such a distinct leap between most voted OP armies and others. It was kinda smoother, not such a huge spike.
Right now we have first, second, third place and literally the rest not being even close to top 3.

I've noticed dakka is strongly favored towards Orks.

People praise stuff like that ork guy that ripped of a Titan head on his bike, betcha a Kriegsman that they'd say its terrible and Marty Sue if a SM did it to a Stomper or a Chaos Titan.

So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

What surprises me most is that there are two votes for everything being perfectly balanced...

Selym wrote:
Hmm... Every army now has at least one vote, which at minimum proves that there are some things that each army just cannot handle.

Templars don't.

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

Second oldest.

On the topic of MSS, the "just charge something else" is kinda hard when there's eleventyfive Lords all over the place. As a Templars player I'm dependent on my Characters actually killing stuff. MSS completely feth everything over for me. I know it's avoidable if you make sure that you're not engaged at the start of the combat and stuff, but it's a bloody hassle and doesn't always work.

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

It's probably the Errata that enabled them to have "always on" 3+cover saves for vehicles for 5pts each. Statistically they're still easier to kill than they were in 5E, but it's something that annoys a lot of people.

What I find really funny is that SoB have more votes than Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Vanilla SM... What do they actually have that's so OP? Bolters? Flamers? Meltaguns? Exorcist tanks? The 6+ inv save is more a novelty than useful and they have no anti-psyker capability. Any list built to kill marines will kill them too and they have T3 so more wounds to save. Even Celestine is more annoying than OP against anything that can put out bucketfuls of high-strength attacks.

The space marines at least have the advantage of 5-man base squad size for troops, and Combat Squad option if they take 10. SoB have one troop choice (solid, admittedly) with 10 minimum size. And a special rule (Faith points) that gets less useful the larger the game since you'll soon have more units than possible points to use.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

Last game I played was a 3 vs 3 (500 pts each): lost 7 to 6 VP, but we cheered at the moral victory of succeeding in sinking the throne-despised ghost ark

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

Last game I played was a 3 vs 3 (500 pts each): lost 7 to 6 VP, but we cheered at the moral victory of succeeding in sinking the throne-despised ghost ark

Moral victories are fun

Also, if things in the Necron codex were just a bit more expensive, they would be nowhere near as OP, but it just so happens that Matt Ward decided he likes codex creep...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

It's probably the Errata that enabled them to have "always on" 3+cover saves for vehicles for 5pts each. Statistically they're still easier to kill than they were in 5E, but it's something that annoys a lot of people.

Even though they are far more expensive then everyone elses (Barring Eldar)

Experiment 626 wrote:

I'd rather spend 2 hours having my finger nails pulled out while hanging upside down by my eyeballs than face another pointless 20min waste-of-time playing against Derp Knights...

Wow, DE torture > fighting GK. Sorry, just had to quote that as it gave me an audible laugh (a literal LOL if you will).

Experiment 626 wrote:
No book should ever be an outright hard-counter to another entire book!.

My DA are geared to take on CSM (which my brother plays, YAY DV!), but admittedly it isn't such an uphill battle for him.

Back on topic, I voted Necrons. Mainly because its "which codex is most OP" and not "which codex has the most OP build/units" which necrons would still be a contender for. I tend to build TAC lists, but forget winning with that vs necrons, unless the dice gods smile upon my hands and/or my opponent is a tactical *insert demeaning word here*. I find even with a tailored list, which I hate building, I still struggle to beat my friend's necrons, and he isn't exactly a tactical guru. No insult to him, he just hasn't played as long/much as the rest of our main group.

For me it isn't one or two units that make them OP in my opinion, it's the combination of all of those factors that does. MSS + RP + their fliers + this that and the other thing = OP to me. my two cents.

Not saying Tau are overpowered so don't take that as what I am saying I don't think that at all. However 6th gave them a much needed boost with the 3+ cover but also in the nerf to other armies not being able to charge when they outflank (snikrot plus warboss usually worked well for me against tau). Add to that the shift towards shooting away from cc and they are doing fairly well now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Necroes wrote:
So... how are Tau overpowered? I understand they have rail guns, and jetpacks are annoying to field against (at least, that's what I'm told) but it's the oldest codex out there, and one of the basic troop selections are next to useless.

It's probably the Errata that enabled them to have "always on" 3+cover saves for vehicles for 5pts each. Statistically they're still easier to kill than they were in 5E, but it's something that annoys a lot of people.

Even though they are far more expensive then everyone elses (Barring Eldar)

True, I won't deny that most of them are, I'd say Hammerheads are probably exactly where they should be but are the exception, the bigger issue being that the nature of the army generally requires more Railguns than hammerheads will provide. But it's the perception that 3+ cover saves makes on people, even if really it's the only thing holding them up.

I voted Necrons, because in my mind, there isn't anything else that comes close. A well run TAC Necron list can realistically handle just about any other TAC list with no trouble. The problem is when spam comes into the mix. Spam armies of every kind will always have the built-in hard counter, which is why CronAir doesn't seem to win many tourneys. CronAir that goes first against another flyer spam army or an AA spam army doesn't last long at all. Then the Cron players (and those that beat Cron spammers) cry that the army is being unfairly targeted.

Truth is, a balanced Necron army (ie, taking multiple types of units, no just min/maxing) is damn difficult to deal with for just about anybody. They have no discernable weakness to exploit for the most part, as they can have large, cheap units of tough troops (Necron Warriors) that have great synergy with other units (Crypteks, Lords, Ghost Ark, Nightscythe). They have slightly more expensive but very efficient troops in Immortals (w/Telsa=antihorde by itself), which are durable enough to work in smaller units. Combine the efficient troop selections with incredible Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support units that are generally considered undercosted by alot, and you have an army that doesn't need to spam units to be punishing.

Finally, the last bit of icing on the silver frosted cake. A single 1750 point army can have multiple "combi-trick" units whereas most armies are lucky to be able to field a single trick unit in that point range. My regular Necron opponent will often run a large "Silver Tide" brick (20 warriors, overlord w/Rez Orb, cryptek or two, and Ghost Ark) along with the wonderful Nightscythe/Deathmark/Cryptek combo, and top that off with Imhotek and a reroll granting Cryptek in a large group of immortals. And he still has points left over for Wraiths, Destroyers, and an Annihilation barge or two. I always feel like I've left half my army in the box by mistake when I play him.

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

LD 10, oh noes, let's jut forget about the fact that most armies in this game are immune to fear and sweeping advance -_____________________-

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

LD 10, oh noes, let's jut forget about the fact that most armies in this game are immune to fear and sweeping advance -_____________________-

Mmm... True...

I wish there was a counter to ATSKNF, in the same way that ATSKNF is a counter to Fear, and that Fear is a counter to anything that can even concieve of a cowardly act, but charged you anyway.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

Even without MSS, a Necron Lord would have better defenses than an assault terminator (2+/3++), since it's also T5 and can pop right back up. Then you remember that it is basically swinging a chainfist with -1S that will go before any weapon even remotely close that is not being wielded by Kharn the Betrayer on the charge or Abaddon. and that it -still- unlocks a court yhat lets you game night-fighting to your advantage.

So, yeah. MSS basically exists to make psychostroke grenades look sane.

 Amaya wrote:
ASFAIK Dark Angels are meh, Necrons are good. How are CSM and Daemons?

Power wise, CSM are ok, there codex has generated a lot of hate because many players wanted more options for representing the original traitor legions.

Demons, in my view near terrible, easily as bad as they were for most of the previous edition.
(following is from a post i made on another forum)

We are in 6th edition which has a lot of flyers and not a few that are broken. Demons cant do jack-all against flyers. You have bs 3 soulgrinders for your main antiflier support, good luck taking out av12 and you will struggle with AV11.

Flying monstrous creatures have the ridiculous grounding rule that means your FMC will be blown out of the sky about as fast as poop goes through a goose or you can say "GW price rise".

The random rolling for effects and gear/options is hit or miss depending on your personal preference so there is no point in making a value judgement that it is good or bad. However, it has the potential for slowing the game down and perhaps more potential than many rules for people to cheat and "forget" which roll they made for gear during the game. I think 6th edition already has too many rules that arent really needed and I find the random table design to be a lazy man's approach to game design.

Monsterous creatures cost way too many points for their ability and durability

The troop selections are mostly crap, cheaper, but still crap

Too many fantasy rules leaking into 40k in this codex, more lazy design

Fiends nerfed for no good reason

warpflame rule = stupid

The skull cannon is good for taking out troops but this is not the kind of shooting the army needs

GK are still a very hard counter to this army, even GK as allies optimized for an all comers list will wipe the floor with demons

5+ is lame, its the same as the usual/common cover save nearly everyone will get on any table with reasonable terrain

The demon army will struggle against a lot of chimeras and/or rhinos. Eventually people will figure out chimeras arent as bad as initial predictions so I expect IG with lots of vehicles and firepower to just annihilate demons with ease.

Flyers, tanks, shooting; three things that are mainstays of 6th edition are all things demons are weak against. Consistency, a hallmark of any good "all comers" army is sadly lacking due to all the random rolls. I could see taking demon allies with CSM for purely fluff reasons. If you are designing an army that you are serious about performing well and consistently on the table top I dont think you would pick demons.

JWhex wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
ASFAIK Dark Angels are meh, Necrons are good. How are CSM and Daemons?

Power wise, CSM are ok, there codex has generated a lot of hate because many players wanted more options for representing the original traitor legions.

Demons, in my view near terrible, easily as bad as they were for most of the previous edition.
(following is from a post i made on another forum)

We are in 6th edition which has a lot of flyers and not a few that are broken. Demons cant do jack-all against flyers. You have bs 3 soulgrinders for your main antiflier support, good luck taking out av12 and you will struggle with AV11.

Flying monstrous creatures have the ridiculous grounding rule that means your FMC will be blown out of the sky about as fast as poop goes through a goose or you can say "GW price rise".

The random rolling for effects and gear/options is hit or miss depending on your personal preference so there is no point in making a value judgement that it is good or bad. However, it has the potential for slowing the game down and perhaps more potential than many rules for people to cheat and "forget" which roll they made for gear during the game. I think 6th edition already has too many rules that arent really needed and I find the random table design to be a lazy man's approach to game design.

Monsterous creatures cost way too many points for their ability and durability

The troop selections are mostly crap, cheaper, but still crap

Too many fantasy rules leaking into 40k in this codex, more lazy design

Fiends nerfed for no good reason

warpflame rule = stupid

The skull cannon is good for taking out troops but this is not the kind of shooting the army needs

GK are still a very hard counter to this army, even GK as allies optimized for an all comers list will wipe the floor with demons

5+ is lame, its the same as the usual/common cover save nearly everyone will get on any table with reasonable terrain

The demon army will struggle against a lot of chimeras and/or rhinos. Eventually people will figure out chimeras arent as bad as initial predictions so I expect IG with lots of vehicles and firepower to just annihilate demons with ease.

Flyers, tanks, shooting; three things that are mainstays of 6th edition are all things demons are weak against. Consistency, a hallmark of any good "all comers" army is sadly lacking due to all the random rolls. I could see taking demon allies with CSM for purely fluff reasons. If you are designing an army that you are serious about performing well and consistently on the table top I dont think you would pick demons.

Spoken like someone who hasn't even tried playing an actual game with the new codex yet...

- Daemons have no trouble vs the average 2-4 Flyers. Plaguebears w/Aegis line quad-gun, Soul Grinders, any FMC, 7D6/S6 Flickering Fire w/Prescience... Yep, sure looks like Daemons will auto-lose vs even a single flyer to me.

- FMC's may not be as outright amazin gas flyers, but they're hardly trash. Besides, at least ours get saves when being grounded - that's more than Tyranids get.

- The random stuff is being so overblown it isn't even funny anymore...
The Warpstorm table gives us an added bonus to our shooting phase which is pretty quick otherwise outside of a heavy/mono-Tzeentch army.
The Reward tables let us freaking tailor our characters to our enemy! Or at worst, we can load-up on champions w/initiative-order ap2 ccw's for a whole 15pts. I can hear every single MEQ player crying foul right about now...
If it takes you more than 5 minutes to roll up and record everything, then you need to learn how to write properly.

- MC's are no longer super cheap auto-takes that can solo half an army - get over it! Besides, we have 'Thirsters that essentially come fully equiped, GUO's & Princes get Biomancy for cheesing things up and LoC gets Divination and is a combat beatstick w/Eternal Blade.
Our Monstrous gribblies are overall pretty fairly costed for what they do... Even the Keeper who's somewhat lackluster compared to all the others is still the cheaper at base cost and can take Telepathy for fun! (invisibility anyone?!)

- How are our Troops crap? 9pts gets us T4/Shrouded objective campers. Or a reiculously fast, high initiative combat girl with Rending. And for a whole extra point, we can get our hands on WS5/S4/ap3 MEQ beatsticks.
Large Troops units are even scarier when supported by their relevent Heralds.

- How are Fiends nerfed? Sure, they lost 2 attacks. They gained +1 wound, move even faster than before (as if that was even possible), inflict -1Ld to nearby enemy psykers AND anything they charge get's hit by -5I!
Add a mounted Herald w/Locus of Beguilment + Greater Etherblade and laugh at anything that's not a Deathstar. (actually, even some Deathstars will still fear that...)

- Warpflame isn't stupid. It simply means Tzeentch shooters need to focus fire and outright kill or cripple their target/s.

- The Skullcannon does more than simply kill enemy troops...

- GK's eye-raping Daemons is not an issue of Codex: Daemons being underpowered, but rather the GK book being outright beyond broken against us.

- 5++ can't ever be ignored. Yes it makes us more vulnerable to small arms than say MEQ's are. We're also more resiliant to all the scariest crap than aynthing else in the game. And again, rolling a 10 on the Warpstorm table gives you +1 to your saves for a turn, and Tzeentch can take Divination which has a power that does the same for a chosen unit.
5++ has been pretty standard for Daemons for a long time. Not sure why you think this is suddenly a huge issue...

- The Daemon army has Rending and high strength attacks out the wazoo. Bring your tanks. I've got more options for Rending, psudo-gauss Plagueswords, armourbane, S5/6 basic attacks, etc... than I know what to do with. And that's before I look at what shooting options I've got!



Mass flyer spam is a problem for every fething army in the game bar the flyer-spamers themselves!
The tanks & shooting on the otherhand has all of 1 turn to kill my entire army, (which can now simply deploy normally AND all at once!), before I start ripping them into tiny little pieces.
GK's may still laugh at Daemons true, (but then their book is designed to outright curbstomp us so why is that so surprising?) Everyone else on the otherhand...

Daemons may not be the brand new top-tier god-level codex. But aside from the GK issue, they're a solid book that have tools to deal with pretty much anything. (except GK's of corse)

Eldar have four votes... Really people!?

One good piece of gear does not make the second oldest codex (IIRC) OP.

I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

There should be a "your mom" option haha

warpspider89 wrote:
Eldar have four votes... Really people!?

One godly piece of gear does not make the second oldest codex (IIRC) OP.

Fixed that for you!

In all fairness, Runes of F-you psykers isn't game-breaking in the least when you look at things like Necrons in general, Psycho/Rad grenades and some of the other undercosted options out there... Besides, Runes will almost certainly get fixed within 8 months anyways.

 Melissia wrote:
I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

I'll admit to one of those sister votes being mine, just done for the lols.

I was not disappointed.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

I'll admit to one of those sister votes being mine, just done for the lols.

I was not disappointed.

Same here.

Necrons. Holy ever living-dead Necrons. Heres an idea: Lets make a MEQ, that when it dies, you roll a die to see if you get a free 16pt(?) model back! Well forget that, lets make an entire squad of that. NO! Even BETTER! Let's make ALL the Infantry in a codex do that! So then we have to give them bad vehicles and guns to make up for it then right? HECKS NO BRO! They got crazy fluff technology! We'll give them something better the the Tau Railgun, on a freaking PLANE THING. Heres to you Necroisant! *blows brains out*

How are Tau OP? at least one person put that up there. Broadsides? Their good thanks to a quirk of re-rolling. Turns out when the rules uniformly put everyone at the same level to shoot air, the unit with more dice and/or re-rolls thinks your cute. Maybe in a like 500-750pt game but I don't see it otherwise.

For anyone saying Daemons are OP - they have massive weaknesses.

For anyone saying Daemons are under powered - they seem designed to ally with CSM, who's strong points almost exactly match the daemons weak points and vice versa.

Vaktathi wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board

To be fair it's still infinitely better than being destroyed, and means they can secure/reinforce your own objectives

Actually, I'd one-up this.

In a regular transport, when you cause a vehicle explosion, a lot of guys are killed. When you take down a flying transport, it's a death sentence to those inside.

When you shoot down a necron flier, the unit inside gets to teleport, unharmed, directly to any objective within 9" of their board edge. Either you get to capture/contest an opponent's objective with contemptible ease, or you get to do it to one of your own objectives, EVEN WHEN YOU GET SHOT DOWN.

More than a little silly, in my book.

I'm kind of (extremely, actually) shocked to see the Guard get so many votes.

Personally, I think they are all pretty balanced. Some of them have units that are very easy to use, which makes it easy for players with a poorer grasp of tactics to win with them. I don't think that makes those units "better," it just makes them more intuitive (or basic information on how to use them more widespread).

Personal opinion, of course, which most people obviously don't agree with.

@Jimsolo>>>Y'know I thought so to, until I played against the HQ choice they can take that can throw down two special orders a turn that paired even remotely effectively can mean death to alot of units. He wasn't THAT bad but...ugh. Didn't help that the same guy used that Forgeworld flyer withtwinlinked punisher cannons that kills a unit per turn. That got banned from my games hardcore. But technically thats not in their Codex. I'm told IG have always been top three level power though so I could see it.

I think the Guard votes are mainly due to the tendency of some doinks to spam Vendettas like they are going out of style.

I went against an 12 Vendetta list last night. Didn't exactly warm the cockles of my heart...

Being able to Pieplate an army out of existence on turn one may have it's part too


Guard have their weaknesses, but they are still a stonking strong codex.

You're surprised to see that the most common ally in the game is voted highly? Really? Let's run down a list:

Best troops in the game in terms of options, as well as the fact they can have the most troops of any codex - this, in an edition revolving around troops

The only codex with blob squads, with at least 5 characters in

One of the best flyers in the game which is so good it was undercosted in 5th when you still used normal BS to hit it

Orders, which make the already impressive fire power of the guard utterly incredible

Access to good large blast weapons, many of which are barrage for character sniping. In particular, Griffons, Basilisks and Manticores are super good and just wreck stuff. Leman Russes are also amazing

If you use Forge World, they have access to the best stuff bar none. Scoring artillery with skyfire/interceptor, 75 point S8 AP3 large blast barrage weapons, Vultures, Thudd Guns... it's really quite astonishing

Best shooting in the game, easily. You can have a lasplas squad for 85 points and take that up to 30 times in one FOC. Remarkably, that's not even the best option

Allies with most armies. This is the true strength in 6th - any army can get access to an incredible flyer, a great heavy support piece and a ton of troops - even most IG primary armies don't use most than 2 troop slots and that's what allies have access to! There's a reason we see so many IG allies in tournaments.

It's an incredible codex and, IMO, has been one of, if not the utmost, the top armies in the game since it was released. It's marginally worse after the vehicle nerf but rather than spamming tanks, it can now have 50 man fearless/ATSKNF blobs with 5 power axes and the ability to throw away characters in challenges risk free. I'd rather face Necrons than IG any day.

 Sigvatr wrote:
LD 10, oh noes, let's jut forget about the fact that most armies in this game are immune to fear and sweeping advance -_____________________-

Pity that those armies do not come back to life (save a handful of pricy characters)... but let's ignore it, the fact that LD is used for other tests, and let's ignore that if the unit falls back far enought, they do not self-resurrect...

RP units self-resurrect
Add resurrection orb
Add a chain effect weapon (tesla, anyone?) from a weapon usable by all the models in one unit
Add flyer transports (with benefits mentioned in above messages)
Hypothesis: ten immortals, ten tesla carbines, joined overlord with res. orb, dedicated night scythe > 390

For that price I can't think of an similarly powerful unit.

In addition, necrons *also* have fearless units, units with an absurd Preferred Enemy (everything!)

Just for curiosity's sake, I'd like to know what could be the cost of some units, calculated by the very first edition rules...

I repeat myself: it was just a ghost ark, but we cheered when it went down

They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

I'll admit to one of those sister votes being mine, just done for the lols.

I was not disappointed.

I'm also guilty of this.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic :/

I'm surprised people complain about the Wraithwings and 'Cron Air. As a Necron player, I have no interest in either list (Wraith models are spindly as crap and I only have two croissants).

Realistically, I love Av13 wall lists. I bring Imotek and a Chronomatron Cryptek, 3 Anni Barges, 2 Ghost Arks, 2 Triarch Stalkers, and some flyers. The 4+ seize, the night fighting boosted jinking Av13, and the guns have been a terror to my local meta. I played a Tau match up last week, used wraiths instead of more Av13... the wraiths did okay, but I jinked just about every railgun shot that came my way. Ended up winning with 4 objectives, slay the warlord, line breaker, and first blood. It was dirty.

I'm going to augment my list by bringing in Grey Knights with Coteaz, DCA, Stormraven and maybe a psiflemen dread for extra S8 punch. I'll have a cheap, scoring CC unit (cheaper than wraiths or royal court), a supreme flyer supported with a croissant backup, and still all the Av13 and night fighting. (and searchlights on the dread and raven,... and I'll have divination on Coteaz to give my Raven a 4++ save, if lucky!)

Necron Av13 wall = dirtiest. I fear vendettas a bit, but CSM I laugh at because they rarely have >S7 guns and the hell turkey can do jack crap as long as I'm in a vehicle!

I votes IG because while it lacks the WTF-factor of present-day Necrons, it's just too efficient.

Its vehicles are actually better than the Marine/xenos equivalents for the same role: cheaper, resilient, fire amazing weapons and can be fit in quantity into a list. It's like Cruddace considers BS3 to be a horrible handicap and boosted everything else to 11 while jacking the price down.

Orders compound the issue. You already have more and stronger stuff than the other guy, now lets get your guys to act twice, never miss, or stay on the board longer. The Vendetta is a big issue but hardly the only one: veteran squads, blobs, AV12+ spam (a cheap transpot that allows 5 guys to fire from the inside?), platoons.

Add allies and you have literally no weaknesses. You can get the best psykers from other Imperial armies, join ATSKNF models to your units to troll people, and get to be amazing at CC if you bring in Space Wolves or Dark Angels. That's only if you really care, though, because you hav ethe option of just piling on more pie plates and half-priced flyng death.

Selym wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic :/

No, you'll have to guess! Muwahahahaha!


Of course I was being sarcastic; I really didn't think there was any question about it.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

Selym wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic :/

No, you'll have to guess! Muwahahahaha!


Of course I was being sarcastic; I really didn't think there was any question about it.

 Sephyr wrote:
I votes IG because while it lacks the WTF-factor of present-day Necrons, it's just too efficient.

Its vehicles are actually better than the Marine/xenos equivalents for the same role: cheaper, resilient, fire amazing weapons and can be fit in quantity into a list. It's like Cruddace considers BS3 to be a horrible handicap and boosted everything else to 11 while jacking the price down.

Keep in mind half the Xenos books are still 4E books, especially Tau and Eldar, which were costed and designed to the ridiculous invinci-skimmer 4E vehicle rules. Comparing them isn't exactly great. As for compared to marines, none of their tanks that serve the same role are cheaper, a Chimera is not cheaper than a Rhino or a Razorback (unless you give the Razorback AT guns that the Chimera can't get), a Leman Russ is not cheaper than a Predator. That said, they're supposed to have better tanks than the Marines, since they rely on them a lot more as guardsmen suck, the Marines have amazing infantry and their tanks are support units. Nothing about this has changed since 2nd edition.

Also, tanks are...mediocre at best in 6th edition, unable to affect mission objectives at all and easier to kill than they've ever been in just about any edition.

Orders compound the issue. You already have more and stronger stuff than the other guy, now lets get your guys to act twice, never miss, or stay on the board longer.

Yes, the T3 5+sv infantry units that otherwise don't get cool abilities like ATSKNF, Combat & Chapter Tactics, Descent of Angels, Counterattack, Chaos Marks, army-wide Furious Charge/Waagh, Brotherhood of Psykers/etc. They don't go off automatically (failing 28% of the time on most units, 42% of the time on units like Heavy Weapons squads), the ones that *really* matter can only be issued by a CCS.

Nothing allows them to 'never miss', at best it reduces their hit rate to 25% (slightly better than BS4) against Tanks and MC's specifically if a CCS is within 12" of them and has LoS to the target himself and the target unit gets off their LD7/8 test, likewise, nothing allows them to shoot twice in a turn or anything like that. Most of the Orders stuff is hugely situational.

The Vendetta is a big issue but hardly the only one: veteran squads, blobs, AV12+ spam (a cheap transpot that allows 5 guys to fire from the inside?), platoons.

Vendettas yes, they're dumb.

Veterans? Veterans are only good when used in conjunction with a transport (otherwise they're just guardsmen with 2 extra special weapons options and BS4 at a 40% price premium before you buy any guns), which are far less effective in 6E, and how often do you see footslogging vets? .

Blobs are strong, but hardly broken, especially in 6E where assault utility and wound allocation makes it much more awkward to work.

AV12 spam was great in 5th, super strong, but 6th specifically made mid-AV vehicles about the easiest things in the game to engage and destroy, it's probably one of the easiest builds for most armies to defeat in 6th.

I think you're the first person I've seen complain about Platoons in general, they've been operating like that since 2nd edition. You can fit in a lot of dudes, but most of the platoon units are thoroughly "meh", not just in an absolute sense but for their cost as well, especially as the fire support units lack unit leaders and leave them at Ld7.

I keep reading that MSS is way to overpowered,
as far as it goes for reading the rulebook, it would seem that there are ways around MSS
Simply be the Assaulter!!
MSS scarabs says before any blows have been struck
Issuing a challenge says the exact same thing

conclusion, whoevers turn it is gets to choose which is taken first

So, assault the necrons, put some basic troop in base contact with the lord, tell them to do MSS scarabs, THEN issue the challenge, and punch the lord in the face!

While they're certainly powerful, Guard aren't remotely "OP" until you begin factoring in allies. By adding allies, you allow the army to gain access to some special rules that are disproportionately beneficial to Guard, and provide the book with units that can cover its intended weaknesses. As allies themselves, Guard give a player the ability to leverage a ton of models into their allied detachment, which can be exploited to good effect by most armies.

I voted GKs, just because the Purifier spam list backed up by Storm Ravens is one of the most disgusting lists that I've seen (though Tervigon spam is a close second). That said, every GK army list is not that list, and if an opponent shows up with Grey Knights I'm not going to write them off as TFG out of hand. People are far too willing to put a label on an army list based solely on what codex that it is drawn from, instead of the content of the list itself.

Necrons - they have relatively cheap flyer transports which currently means they can out fly anyone with their army. They also have a lot of neat tricks they can pull with HQ and royal court. Compounded by the fact that we are in a mixed environment with some codex having answers to flyers and the old ones predating 6th and having a real problem dealing with them.

I would vote Orks..but I'm fairly certain the poll is asking about the current Ork codex and not the second/third edition codices.

Best units ever - Madboyz and Lootaz with Plasma Cannons...

I think guard are the most versatile. Tho Russ can be a nightmare esp w/ some Valkyrie support. They can ally w/ almost anyone too.

No one at my store was scared of nids till I played them. Everyone scoffed and said 2nd tier codex. Now I'll be lucky to get a game w/ them. Have only lost 1 game and he cheated.

Everyone said they were weak vs air but Spore pods dropped behind the air w/ a Flyrant w/ old adversary smishes em quick. Well atleast guard flyers. Only 1 necron player at our store and he is strong and doesn't use air. Never had a Marine player use flyers yet. Ravens scare me.

Knights of the grey stuff. Oh how I hate going against them...playing with chaos means it's double trouble

 Black Lantern wrote:
Knights of the grey stuff. Oh how I hate going against them...playing with chaos means it's double trouble

Actually, if you avoid deamonic units, CSM can put up a pretty powerful fight with the right units. If you force GK's to get into melee with some Thousand Sons, the GK player's going to have a hard time getting out of that combat, as S10 AP3(?) Force Weapons means bugger all against a unit full of 4++ saves.
After that, just overwhelm them with numbers (Cultists / Allied Guard / Allied Orks), and there is little that GK cheese units can do to stop you

Grey knight's hate plague zombies. Assault them with a 35 man zombie squad, and they won't get out of the fight all game most times.

 Evileyes wrote:
Grey knight's hate plague zombies. Assault them with a 35 man zombie squad, and they won't get out of the fight all game most times.

Yeah
Chaos can pull some truly dick-moves now

Selym wrote:

 Black Lantern wrote:
Knights of the grey stuff. Oh how I hate going against them...playing with chaos means it's double trouble

Actually, if you avoid deamonic units, CSM can put up a pretty powerful fight with the right units. If you force GK's to get into melee with some Thousand Sons, the GK player's going to have a hard time getting out of that combat, as S10 AP3(?) Force Weapons means bugger all against a unit full of 4++ saves.
After that, just overwhelm them with numbers (Cultists / Allied Guard / Allied Orks), and there is little that GK cheese units can do to stop you

Not to mention that you ignore his Purifiers' armour save with shooting... but for that matter, who takes Thousand Sons?

I did. I borrowed my mates CSm for a 2500 point battle.

I had 40 TSs + Ahriman on the field, I love the things. I actually remember shooting down a Vendetta with one of the Aspiring Sorcerors' Doombolt

Amaya wrote:It's pretty funny that Necrons went from "kind of competitive if you abuse the hell out of certain poorly worded outdated rules" to "roflstomp everything".

I cry bs on that. The old dex was broken and top tier, the new one is incredibly freakin' OPed out the yin yang. That's the short version.

Carnage43 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
why? because that unit you mostly killed isnt actually mostly dead?

Pretty much, yeah. It's frustrating being unable to counter some of the things in the necron book.

It's annoying as hell to kill something, and it still has a chance to come back to life. It's like "Okay, you can stop shooting now, but it might not be dead". It would have been infinitely less annoying if resurrection protocols was a saving throw of sorts, so that you could keep firing at something until you KNOW it's dead.

It's an uncounterable mechanic, and it's annoying as hell to play against.

Don't even get me started on the AP1 melee weapons at initiative, or the MSS.

Amen

Evileyes wrote:The way to counter rez protocal, is to focus fire on unit's. If you kill the whole unit, they can't come back.

Yeah, that's hard, which is why they are so strong, but if you only shoot a little at each squad, it will do far less damage than focussing and totally destroying one squad.

Do you realize how stupidly hard that is?

KnuckleWolf wrote:Necrons. Holy ever living-dead Necrons. Heres an idea: Lets make a MEQ, that when it dies, you roll a die to see if you get a free 16pt(?) model back! Well forget that, lets make an entire squad of that. NO! Even BETTER! Let's make ALL the Infantry in a codex do that! So then we have to give them bad vehicles and guns to make up for it then right? HECKS NO BRO! They got crazy fluff technology! We'll give them something better the the Tau Railgun, on a freaking PLANE THING. Heres to you Necroisant! *blows brains out*

Oh so true.

Ascalam wrote:I think the Guard votes are mainly due to the tendency of some doinks to spam Vendettas like they are going out of style.

I went against an 12 Vendetta list last night. Didn't exactly warm the cockles of my heart...

Being able to Pieplate an army out of existence on turn one may have it's part too


Guard have their weaknesses, but they are still a stonking strong codex.

12 Vendettas? Holy hell what does that guy do for a living? Is his last name Gates or something?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Not to mention that you ignore his Purifiers' armour save with shooting... but for that matter, who takes Thousand Sons?

I have a buddy who plays 1K Sons. Takes 3 squads, Ahriman, a squad of bikers and a Sorceror on a Bike. All backed up with a single Heldrake. The army is brutal and won him a tournament not too long ago (and a 2 hour rant on why the Heldrake is "broken").

I take Thousand Sons.

Also, I am amused that Sisters now have eight troll votes.

I can only really comment on GK as they are the only "Overpowered" army I have played. For one they have a Vindicare Assassin and an annoying Dreadknight! Is it purifiers (can`t remember the name) that have so many heavy weapons for a cheap price. AND finally the fact that GK roll 4D6 for Armour Pen! Absolutely ridiculous. I made the mistake of bringing a mechanised list and all my vehicles were destroyed in 2 turns! I HAD 6! As for Necrons I do not know however, I have played Tyranids and they have so many Special Rules like Synapse creature meaning they cannot be insta-killed. A Mawloc makes a mess of my elites and troops with the Terror from the Deep!

Selym wrote:

 Black Lantern wrote:
Knights of the grey stuff. Oh how I hate going against them...playing with chaos means it's double trouble

Actually, if you avoid deamonic units, CSM can put up a pretty powerful fight with the right units. If you force GK's to get into melee with some Thousand Sons, the GK player's going to have a hard time getting out of that combat, as S10 AP3(?) Force Weapons means bugger all against a unit full of 4++ saves.
After that, just overwhelm them with numbers (Cultists / Allied Guard / Allied Orks), and there is little that GK cheese units can do to stop you

I know I got a shed load of thousand son upgrade packs recently so I'll be fielding soon. Also, the new codex has opened things up a little. I HATED our last codex.

Crons by far are the most op.

Space Furries are pretty OP imo, expecially with IG allies

Necrons are OP everywhere they make an appearance, the tabletop, the RTSs, the RPGs. I cannot think of anywhere they are not broken and unbalanced.

chapgrimaldus wrote:
Necrons are OP everywhere they make an appearance, the tabletop, the RTSs, the RPGs. I cannot think of anywhere they are not broken and unbalanced.

Seems that way - in the origianl DoW series they would utterly pwn everything by being invisible, and having a freaking monolith, which just ate armies.

In every bit of fluff I've seen for them they annihilate almost everything and punch through tanks like it's nobody's buisness. And then get up after being shot to gak.

And in the TT in 4th and now 6th ED, they munch armour like there's no tomorrow, and burn through infantry as if they weren't even there.

I wouldn't mind if they were well pointed/balanced, but Ward has never heard of such a thing.

Wow so much hate on te necrons. I can agree that the airforce is op and just plain boring. But you gotta see that a necron ovelord with mss and a warscythe isn't completly op. Without mss they are weak and will die to most others in melee sicne they can't take an inv save. They only got 3 attacks and only ws 4 so they should only hit with max 2 hits per round in melee with their reroll of 1 included. Sure it will go through armor and has high str but that's not alot of damage. They have no other points than just get into melee and they hit slower and less than most.
Take one Wolf Lord for example in a way noone ever runs it and just get him a thunderhammer and a stormshield and the necklace and he would probably kill the necron overlord in one round if he pass the mss. That's a simple rather cheap lord and will obliterate a necron lord in melee without mss.

Fenric wrote:
Wow so much hate on te necrons. I can agree that the airforce is op and just plain boring. But you gotta see that a necron ovelord with mss and a warscythe isn't completly op. Without mss they are weak and will die to most others in melee sicne they can't take an inv save. They only got 3 attacks and only ws 4 so they should only hit with max 2 hits per round in melee with their reroll of 1 included. Sure it will go through armor and has high str but that's not alot of damage. They have no other points than just get into melee and they hit slower and less than most.
Take one Wolf Lord for example in a way noone ever runs it and just get him a thunderhammer and a stormshield and the necklace and he would probably kill the necron overlord in one round if he pass the mss. That's a simple rather cheap lord and will obliterate a necron lord in melee without mss.

Don't necron lords have an AP2 weapon at initiative?
No other army gets that. Have a lord charge some terminators.
Add to that the fact that they can get 2+ saves (and I think some pretty good inv saves too) that don't really cost all that much, and they'll be murdering way more than they cost.
Also - get a unit of 20 warriors within 12" of a vehicle.
See how that turns out.

Don't necron lords have an AP2 weapon at initiative?
No other army gets that.

This is completely false.

It's AP 1. but other Armies have AP 2 weapons that go at Init.

 Sasori wrote:

Don't necron lords have an AP2 weapon at initiative?
No other army gets that.

This is completely false.

It's AP 1. but other Armies have AP 2 weapons that go at Init.

Okay, but I was close

Wich one is the most overpowered?
One I don't play, ofcourse. Otherwise it wasn't overpowered, just a cool and 'competetive' army.

Selym wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Don't necron lords have an AP2 weapon at initiative?
No other army gets that.

This is completely false.

It's AP 1. but other Armies have AP 2 weapons that go at Init.

Okay, but I was close

You were wrong about the AP of the weapon, and wrong about there being no other AP 2 weapons that go at init. There is no close.

Fenric wrote:
Wow so much hate on te necrons. I can agree that the airforce is op and just plain boring. But you gotta see that a necron ovelord with mss and a warscythe isn't completly op. Without mss they are weak and will die to most others in melee sicne they can't take an inv save. They only got 3 attacks and only ws 4 so they should only hit with max 2 hits per round in melee with their reroll of 1 included. Sure it will go through armor and has high str but that's not alot of damage. They have no other points than just get into melee and they hit slower and less than most.
Take one Wolf Lord for example in a way noone ever runs it and just get him a thunderhammer and a stormshield and the necklace and he would probably kill the necron overlord in one round if he pass the mss. That's a simple rather cheap lord and will obliterate a necron lord in melee without mss.

Isn't either Sempiternal Wave or Phase Shifter a 3++ save? I know one of them is a 2+ armour, but I'm pretty sure the other one is a 3++. Furthermore, Necron Lords are T5, which makes a huge difference when it comes to Power Fists and the like.

The Weave is 2+, the Shifter 3++.

Dont forget that a Necron also has that annoying habit of not staying dead

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fenric wrote:
Wow so much hate on te necrons. I can agree that the airforce is op and just plain boring. But you gotta see that a necron ovelord with mss and a warscythe isn't completly op. Without mss they are weak and will die to most others in melee sicne they can't take an inv save. They only got 3 attacks and only ws 4 so they should only hit with max 2 hits per round in melee with their reroll of 1 included. Sure it will go through armor and has high str but that's not alot of damage. They have no other points than just get into melee and they hit slower and less than most.
Take one Wolf Lord for example in a way noone ever runs it and just get him a thunderhammer and a stormshield and the necklace and he would probably kill the necron overlord in one round if he pass the mss. That's a simple rather cheap lord and will obliterate a necron lord in melee without mss.

Isn't either Sempiternal Wave or Phase Shifter a 3++ save? I know one of them is a 2+ armour, but I'm pretty sure the other one is a 3++. Furthermore, Necron Lords are T5, which makes a huge difference when it comes to Power Fists and the like.

Semp weave is 2+ save and phase shifter is +3 save sure but you can't use Shifter on a destroyer lord so he gets killed by anything with ap 2 weapon and 4 attacks basically. Without the mss he is just too weak sicne sure he can attack at initiative but it's only 2 and as i stated he's only got 3 attcks at ws 4 so he doesn't even hit a standard marine on 3+ meaning he kills max 2 marines a turn as an all out melee guy. Only thing he is good at is to try and win challenges with mss. A standard Overlordf can get it all but will be very slow so noone ever runs them except in a command barge and then it's a waste of points most of the time to deck him out in shifter and all the stuff. Plus then he's alone and more vulnerable.

a Dlord is T6, so most 'Marines' without a TH/PW will very rarely wound him. Couple with the fact of 2+ to wound w/ PE means pretty much an auto wound against anything none-HQ

Fenric wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fenric wrote:
Wow so much hate on te necrons. I can agree that the airforce is op and just plain boring. But you gotta see that a necron ovelord with mss and a warscythe isn't completly op. Without mss they are weak and will die to most others in melee sicne they can't take an inv save. They only got 3 attacks and only ws 4 so they should only hit with max 2 hits per round in melee with their reroll of 1 included. Sure it will go through armor and has high str but that's not alot of damage. They have no other points than just get into melee and they hit slower and less than most.
Take one Wolf Lord for example in a way noone ever runs it and just get him a thunderhammer and a stormshield and the necklace and he would probably kill the necron overlord in one round if he pass the mss. That's a simple rather cheap lord and will obliterate a necron lord in melee without mss.

Isn't either Sempiternal Wave or Phase Shifter a 3++ save? I know one of them is a 2+ armour, but I'm pretty sure the other one is a 3++. Furthermore, Necron Lords are T5, which makes a huge difference when it comes to Power Fists and the like.

Semp weave is 2+ save and phase shifter is +3 save sure but you can't use Shifter on a destroyer lord so he gets killed by anything with ap 2 weapon and 4 attacks basically. Without the mss he is just too weak sicne sure he can attack at initiative but it's only 2 and as i stated he's only got 3 attcks at ws 4 so he doesn't even hit a standard marine on 3+ meaning he kills max 2 marines a turn as an all out melee guy. Only thing he is good at is to try and win challenges with mss. A standard Overlordf can get it all but will be very slow so noone ever runs them except in a command barge and then it's a waste of points most of the time to deck him out in shifter and all the stuff. Plus then he's alone and more vulnerable.

Guess what? A Terminator Chaplain with a Power Fist also only gets 2 kills a turn, and he's not T6, can't move as fast, prevents his unit from sweeping and, above all else, can't keep a 275+ beatstick from doing feth all in CC 50% of the time. If you get into combat with such a model you should die; your opponent has paid a premium to be able to take on the toughest units in the game with his IC; flat-out murderizing him half the time for less points than it costs to buy a Plasma Pistol isn't OK.

Wow, with 500+ votes you can really see a trend here, just another proof of GWs poor game design.

 Ailaros wrote:
The correct answer is "any army that allies with tau to bring broadsides".

Lol, can i claim to not be cheap if i ally with guard to bring quake cannons?

lol, at the idea that nobody takes Overlords. Someone hasn't actually tried playing with Necron listbuilding or looked at the cool stuff they can do.

Fenric wrote:
Wow so much hate on te necrons. I can agree that the airforce is op and just plain boring. But you gotta see that a necron ovelord with mss and a warscythe isn't completly op. Without mss they are weak and will die to most others in melee sicne they can't take an inv save. They only got 3 attacks and only ws 4 so they should only hit with max 2 hits per round in melee with their reroll of 1 included. Sure it will go through armor and has high str but that's not alot of damage. They have no other points than just get into melee and they hit slower and less than most.

A Necron Overlord w/weave and phase shifter, warscythe, and MSS has been proven to be a more potent HtH combatant than Abaddon. A generic character using rather commonly used wargear items outfights the freakin' leader of the Black Crusades, the single baddest Space Marine character in the game. And you don't think that's a bit OP?

Now put that Overlord in with a Royal Court that sports a single reroll per phase, S8, AP2, Assault 1 36" range firepower, can turn open terrain into Difficult terrain for one unit, and can make it nightfighting (or not) in a single turn, and inflicts d6 S8 autohits to any unit that charges it, ALL in a single unit. Yeah, Necrons aren't OP at all....


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 TheKbob wrote:
I'm surprised people complain about the Wraithwings and 'Cron Air. As a Necron player, I have no interest in either list (Wraith models are spindly as crap and I only have two croissants).

Realistically, I love Av13 wall lists. I bring Imotek and a Chronomatron Cryptek, 3 Anni Barges, 2 Ghost Arks, 2 Triarch Stalkers, and some flyers. The 4+ seize, the night fighting boosted jinking Av13, and the guns have been a terror to my local meta. I played a Tau match up last week, used wraiths instead of more Av13... the wraiths did okay, but I jinked just about every railgun shot that came my way. Ended up winning with 4 objectives, slay the warlord, line breaker, and first blood. It was dirty.

I'm going to augment my list by bringing in Grey Knights with Coteaz, DCA, Stormraven and maybe a psiflemen dread for extra S8 punch. I'll have a cheap, scoring CC unit (cheaper than wraiths or royal court), a supreme flyer supported with a croissant backup, and still all the Av13 and night fighting. (and searchlights on the dread and raven,... and I'll have divination on Coteaz to give my Raven a 4++ save, if lucky!)

Necron Av13 wall = dirtiest. I fear vendettas a bit, but CSM I laugh at because they rarely have >S7 guns and the hell turkey can do jack crap as long as I'm in a vehicle!

You are kind of just proving the point about Necrons being OP. Most armies have one or two builds that are just punishing...Necrons can just pick crap out of the Codex at random and punish just about every other army. The weakest unit in the army (Flayed Ones) is only the weakest because its not as strong as every other unit. In any other army, Flayed Ones would likely be a middle of the road unit.

The fact that you want to put in Grey Knights to "augment" an already OP army says something...

"the Codex that GW still refuses to release, because it is so OP it retroactively destroys armies, even if you've not yet arrived at the table."

Codex: Squats.........................

or a dedicated Sisters of Battle dex.....surely SOB won't follow same route as the Space Dwarves!!!

xxvaderxx wrote:
Wow, with 500+ votes you can really see a trend here, just another proof of GWs poor game design.

Not really, it shows that 1-3 armies might be overpowered, but most armies are fine.

pax_imperialis wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
The correct answer is "any army that allies with tau to bring broadsides".

Lol, can i claim to not be cheap if i ally with guard to bring quake cannons?

Mmm... Artillery.... *Drool*

Abaddon can almost clear a single unit per turn with all his attacks and his stats. Only thing a necron lord does well is in challenges or vs small expensive units.
Tbh no I have almost never seen a single Overlord beign used outside a command barge(see one now in the battle repots section so will see how that works out) but imo they are too slow to do much and can be mostly ignored.

I still find it ridiculous that even a puny little Necron Lord can have a cheap upgrade that allows it to walk right up to any of my monstrous creatures and even if they have the best leadership possible wipe it out without taking any damage 50% of the time, let alone the fact that it's possible to have one in every single unit they field.

Fenric wrote:
Abaddon can almost clear a single unit per turn with all his attacks and his stats. Only thing a necron lord does well is in challenges or vs small expensive units.
Tbh no I have almost never seen a single Overlord beign used outside a command barge(see one now in the battle repots section so will see how that works out) but imo they are too slow to do much and can be mostly ignored.

First off, Abaddon costs 265 points, and if you want him to cross the field, he has an additional price tag of a fething expensive meatshield unit (Anywhere from a full blob of cultists, up to a full unit of terminators, neither of which is a reliable shield for Abby), and possibly a further 230 points for a transport (Land Raider), because he'll be taking half an army's firepower on turns 1-3, because nobody wants him in melee (except you).
A necron lord is rather inconspicuous, and one with MSS or tesseract labaryinth costs a helluva lot less than Abby, and iirc you cantake quite a few lords in a 'cron list.
And they don't need transports to survive.

Selym wrote:

Fenric wrote:
Abaddon can almost clear a single unit per turn with all his attacks and his stats. Only thing a necron lord does well is in challenges or vs small expensive units.
Tbh no I have almost never seen a single Overlord beign used outside a command barge(see one now in the battle repots section so will see how that works out) but imo they are too slow to do much and can be mostly ignored.

First off, Abaddon costs 265 points, and if you want him to cross the field, he has an additional price tag of a fething expensive meatshield unit (Anywhere from a full blob of cultists, up to a full unit of terminators, neither of which is a reliable shield for Abby), and possibly a further 230 points for a transport (Land Raider), because he'll be taking half an army's firepower on turns 1-3, because nobody wants him in melee (except you).
A necron lord is rather inconspicuous, and one with MSS or tesseract labaryinth costs a helluva lot less than Abby, and iirc you cantake quite a few lords in a 'cron list.
And they don't need transports to survive.

Most people NEVER consider anything their own codex can do is OP. Instead is always just 'fair/fluffy/balanced for reasons x/y/z'

Look at how many GK players blindy swear up and down that there's nothing wrong with their book outright roflstomping Daemons with no effort... But it's okay because it's fluffy since GK's are Daemonhunters.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Selym wrote:

Fenric wrote:
Abaddon can almost clear a single unit per turn with all his attacks and his stats. Only thing a necron lord does well is in challenges or vs small expensive units.
Tbh no I have almost never seen a single Overlord beign used outside a command barge(see one now in the battle repots section so will see how that works out) but imo they are too slow to do much and can be mostly ignored.

First off, Abaddon costs 265 points, and if you want him to cross the field, he has an additional price tag of a fething expensive meatshield unit (Anywhere from a full blob of cultists, up to a full unit of terminators, neither of which is a reliable shield for Abby), and possibly a further 230 points for a transport (Land Raider), because he'll be taking half an army's firepower on turns 1-3, because nobody wants him in melee (except you).
A necron lord is rather inconspicuous, and one with MSS or tesseract labaryinth costs a helluva lot less than Abby, and iirc you cantake quite a few lords in a 'cron list.
And they don't need transports to survive.

Most people NEVER consider anything their own codex can do is OP. Instead is always just 'fair/fluffy/balanced for reasons x/y/z'

Look at how many GK players blindy swear up and down that there's nothing wrong with their book outright roflstomping Daemons with no effort... But it's okay because it's fluffy since GK's are Daemonhunters.

While you are right, Abaddon can at least be shown to have weaknesses (Like the fact that 265 points of any good army will be enough lascannons to murder him from 48", and that a typical army is pretty allergic to Abby, and will shoot the feth outta him. Not to mention the boons table...). I will admit that if Abby ever does get into melee he is one of the most OP things out there, but all it takes is the right amount of firepower and that 265 points you spent? Left you in the dirt. You actually have to build your army around him, whereas 'cron lords with MSS/Tesseract or GK cheese units were made to compliment the army.

It's Tau.....Our ascension is a matter of time. And the time is next weekend. LOL. And then it will be Eldar, then Marines, then who knows.

I play tau. I do not play broadsides because right now they are too strong vs flyers, and I hate me some flyers. I might play the new ones after the nerf on the gun. Stealth suit/Crisis Commander teams are a little broke, and I do run two of those though now. But I kinda need a win condition unit. GO KSI'M'YEN! I am officially now not most people. Yay

KnuckleWolf wrote:
I play tau. I do not play broadsides because right now they are too strong vs flyers, and I hate me some flyers. I might play the new ones after the nerf on the gun. Stealth suit/Crisis Commander teams are a little broke, and I do run two of those though now. But I kinda need a win condition unit. GO KSI'M'YEN! I am officially now not most people. Yay

The new Railguns on Broadsides will be almost 25% more effective AA than the current Railguns...

But the accuracy I think will be offset by the lower strength and penetration. Accuracy goes up like 50% tops. They are supposedly 8/2, so against common air AV12 to pen that's a 4+/5+ as opposed to 2+/3+(33%drop) and only plus one on the Damage chart (16% drop). IDK, you might be right. More hits will mean more chances.

[Percentages are chance increase/decrease on a d6]

Haven't read the whole thread but I think there is a difference between strong and OP.

For me OP would mean that the codex does something through either bad point assignment or having things that largely avoind the basic mechanics ofthe game (either arent bunderable to shooting/assault or auto kill in shoot or assault) to the point where the army is beyond being counterable. Right now I don't think there is a codex that is beyond counterable (especially if forge world is taken into account).

Necrons's are strong but everything they do is counterable by another power build, especially if you include forge world. Is necrons really over powered when compared to SW/IG blob with forge world?

Right now there are some close to OP single units like hell turkeys, or anihliation barges, or MSS but each of these is counterable and generally the codex they come from has some weaknesses (necrons have nothing that is particularly scary in close combat if you use the right tool).

Things are balanced but power builds will always dominate non-power builds . A codexs ability to make power builds does not equal OP.

Pony_law wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread but I think there is a difference between strong and OP.

For me OP would mean that the codex does something through either bad point assignment or having things that largely avoind the basic mechanics ofthe game (either arent bunderable to shooting/assault or auto kill in shoot or assault) to the point where the army is beyond being counterable. Right now I don't think there is a codex that is beyond counterable (especially if forge world is taken into account).

Necrons's are strong but everything they do is counterable by another power build, especially if you include forge world. Is necrons really over powered when compared to SW/IG blob with forge world?

Right now there are some close to OP single units like hell turkeys, or anihliation barges, or MSS but each of these is counterable and generally the codex they come from has some weaknesses (necrons have nothing that is particularly scary in close combat if you use the right tool).

Things are balanced but power builds will always dominate non-power builds . A codexs ability to make power builds does not equal OP.

The point against necrons is that they have a lot of cheap power builds that stomp their equivalent in any other army. And then we have necron fliers, who bypass some flier rules that were designed to make fliers more balanced.

Pony_law wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread but I think there is a difference between strong and OP.

For me OP would mean that the codex does something through either bad point assignment or having things that largely avoind the basic mechanics ofthe game (either arent bunderable to shooting/assault or auto kill in shoot or assault) to the point where the army is beyond being counterable. Right now I don't think there is a codex that is beyond counterable (especially if forge world is taken into account).

Necrons's are strong but everything they do is counterable by another power build, especially if you include forge world. Is necrons really over powered when compared to SW/IG blob with forge world?

Right now there are some close to OP single units like hell turkeys, or anihliation barges, or MSS but each of these is counterable and generally the codex they come from has some weaknesses (necrons have nothing that is particularly scary in close combat if you use the right tool).

Things are balanced but power builds will always dominate non-power builds . A codexs ability to make power builds does not equal OP.

With necrons, it's not about the "power builds" really, it's that, as a whole, they're built so much better to take advantage of the 6E ruleset than any other army and minimize/negate the disadvantages the 5E to 6E switchover introduced in so many other armies.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
Wow, with 500+ votes you can really see a trend here, just another proof of GWs poor game design.

Not really, it shows that 1-3 armies might be overpowered, but most armies are fine.

No, that kind of pool won't show you that. I'm not saying that it isn't true, but only one vote on the top dog won't show how most of armies are balanced between each other (the not-top-dogs pool).

KnuckleWolf wrote:
But the accuracy I think will be offset by the lower strength and penetration. Accuracy goes up like 50% tops. They are supposedly 8/2, so against common air AV12 to pen that's a 4+/5+ as opposed to 2+/3+(33%drop) and only plus one on the Damage chart (16% drop). IDK, you might be right. More hits will mean more chances.

[Percentages are chance increase/decrease on a d6]

They're S8 AP1 Twin-linked Skyfire. It's better at AA than S10 AP1 Twin-linked non-Skyfire. Accuracy going from BS1 to BS3 is a whopping 200% increase in hits, and it gets even greater if Broadsides turn out to have BS4.

I think all the Crisis suits do as well, and Commenders get BS5...

but we'll see on April 6th

I would like to point out that unless Tau can stop anything getting into melee with them (By shooting the gak out of everything in an amazingly OP wall of fire), then I would not consider Tau particularly OP.
But, then again, I would be throwing Abaddon at them, so....

Pony_law wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread but I think there is a difference between strong and OP.

For me OP would mean that the codex does something through either bad point assignment or having things that largely avoind the basic mechanics ofthe game (either arent bunderable to shooting/assault or auto kill in shoot or assault) to the point where the army is beyond being counterable. Right now I don't think there is a codex that is beyond counterable (especially if forge world is taken into account).

Necrons's are strong but everything they do is counterable by another power build, especially if you include forge world. Is necrons really over powered when compared to SW/IG blob with forge world?

Right now there are some close to OP single units like hell turkeys, or anihliation barges, or MSS but each of these is counterable and generally the codex they come from has some weaknesses (necrons have nothing that is particularly scary in close combat if you use the right tool).

Things are balanced but power builds will always dominate non-power builds . A codexs ability to make power builds does not equal OP.

Well said.

Pony_law wrote:
Necrons's are strong but everything they do is counterable by another power build, especially if you include forge world. Is necrons really over powered when compared to SW/IG blob with forge world?

Right now there are some close to OP single units like hell turkeys, or anihliation barges, or MSS but each of these is counterable and generally the codex they come from has some weaknesses (necrons have nothing that is particularly scary in close combat if you use the right tool).

The flaw here is you are countering a basic Necron codex build against allied armies containing FW units....that's not exactly an even comparison and pretty much proves the point. I could easily counter your SW/IG blob with a Necron/GK build.

And while assault may be the only area that Necrons don't completely dominate in, calling that a weakness is misleading. Their ONLY weakness in assault is their initiative, that's it. Their dedicated assault units are nasty, and have some insane advantages that other armies don't have (2 wound jump troops w/S6 rending and the ability to make their opponents strike at I1, S7 AP1 armourbane that strikes at initiative, MSS on characters).

Strangely enough, the Necrons don't need a complete overhaul to take them down from OMG OP! to just strong and balanced. Some points values need to be adjusted, the Nightscythe as a dedicated transport needs to go, wounds that would cause Instant Death need to negate Reanimation Protocols, and some of the characters and wargear items need their power toned down a notch.