People say if every ork tribe came together, no one in the galaxy can beat them.

People also say if the tyranid hive fleets arrive, no one in the galaxy can beat them.

What if both happened at once?

I'm thinking orkz would win.

A side question, people say guardsmen rely on numbers, but dont the orks and nids outnumber them?

Properly organized, the Orks can beat back Tyranid invasions. It proved successful at Tenebra Prime, where the Ork residents beat the Hive Fleet to a pulp. The Octarius Empire is in a permanent stalemate with a Hive Fleet as well. The Orks are holding against the swarm, drawing more Boyz into the melting pot to fight off the Nids advance.

The Eldar tried a similar tactic in Dawn of War 2, driving the Orks against the Tyranids to stem them off long enough to excavate the buried Craftworld.

Orks have beaten Tyranids, Tyranids have beaten Orks.

I'd bet on the Tyranids myself. Ripper beats Grot

Dakka beats less Dakka. And when things aren't shooty enough, you get choppy.

Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

It's hard to say.

The Necrons are also said to be unstoppable if the other races in the galaxy do not band together to fight them.

GW is sort of unimaginative.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

The issue here is that if the orks and nids get into an all-out war, you get orks the size of dreadnoughts and tyranid monsters to match. I don't think either force is the type to get exhausted from all the fighting.

If they're on equal footing, i'd guess it'd all come down to whoever can replenish they're manpower the fastest. Considering both armies rely on mass number of troops.

Well the Tyranids would get a huge source of biomass, if they won, the Orks can also resupply themselves via spore propogation.

And more importantly, the ongoing conflict makes both sides more powerful; the Nids adapt and grow in size and Orks become physically stronger and bigger with victory...

Whoever wins will be even stronger and more formidable than ever they were before...

I would bet on the Orks myself,.. the theory that if they all unify under 1 waagh bannah (Probs Ghazkull then) they will be unstoppable..

I think this is true,.. and why i think they have the advantage over the Nids,.. Orks are EVERYWHERE,.. every system seems to be infested with them. This while Tyranids are mostly on the borders of known space.. (true, we dont know whats beyond)

Tyranids usualy evade Necrons( no biomass),.. so Necrons will continue to ''live''... If Orks win, they will smash da universe!

And as stated above,.. There seem to be more records of orks winning vs nids then visa versa...

BUT! I am convinced the Nids wont make it easy for da boyz!! This since hyve minds adapt quick and effective.. Which is kind of a plus if nids win,.. they are adapted very well to fight off orks,.. which gives other races a bit more time against the Nids since they will have to switch to anti 'umie,tau,eldar etc etc

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

Orks are never exhausted of fighting !

GW has more or less done this with the Octarian War. The conclusion is it's a stalemate. Sheer Ork numbers combined with Ork tactics (or lack thereof) allow for the Tyranids plenty of biomass to replenish their numbers whereas the Tyrandis are putting up such a good fight that Orks fromall around the Galaxy are arriving, allowing the Orks to replenish their numbers. It's a clobberfest until one gives.

Personally I like the result of the Octarian War given in classic Warhammer 50k fanfic "The Shape of Nightmares to Come" that saw the Tyranids and Orks fuse into an unstoppable hybrid. Tyranid hunger and adaptability with Ork imagination and reproductive capabilities.

I'm with nids. People say orks because of the orks spore reproduction but the spores need a food source and will take atleast months to grow into a fighting force. Nids food source is dead things so there is constant food for them and I think they can make more faster then the spores grow. And the new orks don't know how to fight and have no weapons. So they would be like weapon skill 1 and ballistic skill 0

Jayo'r wrote:
I'm with nids. People say orks because of the orks spore reproduction but the spores need a food source and will take atleast months to grow into a fighting force. Nids food source is dead things so there is constant food for them and I think they can make more faster then the spores grow. And the new orks don't know how to fight and have no weapons. So they would be like weapon skill 1 and ballistic skill 0

The food source of the spores would be the corpses of everything else. Ork spores grow in days not months. New Orks are born ready to fight. Some even know how to build intersellar craft in the first few hours of life. The Orks were designed to wage eternal war. Also If the Orks got bored of fighting the Nids they would just will themselves to victory.

Come on this is no competition the Orks will stomp the Nids good and proper then grind them into the dirt abit just to make sure they got the message.

Besides the Orks spores ensure the Orks will never be beaten for good. A catastrophe that destroys alot of the Tyranid's bio mass stores wont be so easily recovered from than a catastrophe that wipes a bunch of Orks out as the spores will replace there numbers and in all likely hood increase them within weeks.

Commonly held Ork view of warfare wrote:Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

Jayo'r wrote:
And the new orks don't know how to fight

Orkz know how to fight on a instinctive level.

Kind of like how baby turtles know to swim towards the ocean, except with orkz its about how to fire a shoota and swing a choppa.

There is a reason many video games have "Orkz is made for fightan and winnan!" as things some of your units would say.

It depends, I'm of the belief that battles drain tyranid resources because they have to waste energy to recycle the dead into new warriors, if they could overwhelm an Ork world the spores would be eaten as-well as the dead. If they win then I imagine any life sustaining world will have more biomass in its plants and oceans than almost any amount of warriors thrown into it. If nids win a war they get stronger regardless, stalemates and losses however will just waste away the hiveships.

Nids can consume the spores, so its Nids.

And every faction is pretty capable of clearing the galaxy if they unite. Its just a way to pump up the faction in the codex, nothing more.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Nids can consume the spores, so its Nids.

And every faction is pretty capable of clearing the galaxy if they unite. Its just a way to pump up the faction in the codex, nothing more.

cept tau.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Whoever wins - Humanity wins because the victor will be so exhausted of all the fighting that they will be easy prey for Imperium's army's.

Tyranid codex says otherwise. With Octarius being the longest and bitterest conflict between both the Orks and Tyranids, it quite explicitly states both sides are gaining strength because of the fight, not losing strength.

This makes sense - conflict with a race of constantly repopulating fungi would give the Tyranids endless biomass to funnel back into the other Hive Fleets. Constant conflict makes the Orks that don't die graw and gain strength.

I doubt either race actually wants Octarius to end. The Orks have a perpetual proving ground in the most hellish battlefield imaginable to get stronger and the Tyranids have a perpetual biomass machine.

That said, regarding the OP - the main difference is that the Orks won't ever all unite. The closest they came was the Warlord that the Emperor and horus slew in the Great Crusade, but even that wasn't all of the Orks united. However, the Tyranids are coming. They are united. One is a theory, one is an eventuality.

The Beast. The warboss that almost toppled the IOM. He is the one who united almost all of the ork race. The orks actually had a good third of the iom under their control

I will say orks win cause we are talking bout orks. But this literally is a based on who wins the coin toss. In a full out battle between the two races, then strategy is literally a myth in this war. The both armies would have would literally make strategy an impossibility on world scale. They would be just too big.

The orks are neve exhausted after a war, please tell me were it says that anywere? I mean it is true with sane species, but we are talking about the orks, they are anything but sane when it comes to war. Or anything else for that matter

Battle wise, there would only be two types, either it will be over in a day, or it will be ongoing forever and ever. Since both forces are the Blitz kind of forces, then they would literally send everything they had against each other on the first day, two outcomes, one force would be wiped out or, they would gather the remainder of their forces, and call in reinforcements from outside the world. Example: Octarius war.

Also adaption is useless for the orks, as the orks that live would then become better fighters against the nid race. To beat this the nids must adapt, or will be wiped out, since the orks that survive will have the experience from before, they will be better fighters and could probably handle the adaptions better.

The nids have organisms that target microorganisms e.i. orks spores.

willhman wrote:
Battle wise, there would only be two types, either it will be over in a day, or it will be ongoing forever and ever. Since both forces are the Blitz kind of forces, then they would literally send everything they had against each other on the first day, two outcomes, one force would be wiped out or, they would gather the remainder of their forces, and call in reinforcements from outside the world. Example: Octarius war.

Tyranids are not a blitz warfare race. They attack in very distinct stages, and their invasions are severely telegraphed due to people knowing they're coming (the Shadow in the Warp is ironically very visible, and planets undergo severe seismic activity from Narvhals).

First, the Vanguard. Lictors and Genestealers land, infiltrate any societies on the planet, and generally assess the planets viability for consumption. When they reach critical mass, their psychic signature in the warp can be seen, and attracts the nearest Hive Fleet.

Second is the initial attack. This is performed by faster moving Tyranids - Shrikes, Flying Tyrants, Harridans, Harpies, Gargoyles. They attack any lower orbit installations and start harassing the defenses of a planet.

Third are the attack waves. These vary from fleet to fleet. These generally are comprised of light offensive organisms like Hormagaunts, Termagants, Warriors, Tyrants, Raveners, etc. They neutralise the defenses already being harassed by the initial atack.

Fourth is the heavy assault wave. This is optional - if defenses are too tough for the attack waves, they land heavier hitters like Carnifexes, Trygons, Heirophants - organisms that can break tough defenses.

Finally, once opposition has been mostly cleared, the consumption begins.

So while a war might drag on, it's not because Tyranids are a blitz type race. It's because their attack has been stalled at a particular phase. In regards to Octarius, it's stalled a stage 4 - heavy assault has been brought in, but hasn't yet been successful.

The worrying thing is that Octarius is drawing in Orks from all over the galaxy.

That means that eventually, every Ork in the galaxy will be at Octarius.

All we can hope is that the Tyranids win that war, because that's EXACTLY how a mega-waagh will start. Nothing unites Orks like a good fight, and that one's the best - if they win, the Imperium will have to deal with that same united Ork race that they're worried about!

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Battle wise, there would only be two types, either it will be over in a day, or it will be ongoing forever and ever. Since both forces are the Blitz kind of forces, then they would literally send everything they had against each other on the first day, two outcomes, one force would be wiped out or, they would gather the remainder of their forces, and call in reinforcements from outside the world. Example: Octarius war.

Tyranids are not a blitz warfare race. They attack in very distinct stages, and their invasions are severely telegraphed due to people knowing they're coming (the Shadow in the Warp is ironically very visible, and planets undergo severe seismic activity from Narvhals).

First, the Vanguard. Lictors and Genestealers land, infiltrate any societies on the planet, and generally assess the planets viability for consumption. When they reach critical mass, their psychic signature in the warp can be seen, and attracts the nearest Hive Fleet.

Second is the initial attack. This is performed by faster moving Tyranids - Shrikes, Flying Tyrants, Harridans, Harpies, Gargoyles. They attack any lower orbit installations and start harassing the defenses of a planet.

Third are the attack waves. These vary from fleet to fleet. These generally are comprised of light offensive organisms like Hormagaunts, Termagants, Warriors, Tyrants, Raveners, etc. They neutralise the defenses already being harassed by the initial atack.

Fourth is the heavy assault wave. This is optional - if defenses are too tough for the attack waves, they land heavier hitters like Carnifexes, Trygons, Heirophants - organisms that can break tough defenses.

Finally, once opposition has been mostly cleared, the consumption begins.

So while a war might drag on, it's not because Tyranids are a blitz type race. It's because their attack has been stalled at a particular phase. In regards to Octarius, it's stalled a stage 4 - heavy assault has been brought in, but hasn't yet been successful.

Yes the nids indeed have stages, but once infiltration happens then things start to go fast. Say they have infiltrated the government all the way to the governor, this is likely to happen. Then when the shadow in the warp gets detected and is reported to him, he will not do anything about it. This leaves open the door for the nids to come in with the least amount of resistance possible. Once they land, and the world is already in disarray, then the world will fall from the overwhelming forces of the nids. The planning can take years if not days, but usually, a succesful attack from nids probably ends within a month, that is if everything goes according to plan. For orks, they don't really know what a shadow in the warp is. So they can be hit in surprise fast.

Blitz are not fast planning wise. It takes time to mass up the forces needed for the blitz and time to hide them so they can be discovered. It also takes time to find the chink in the enemies armour so that you can get massive damage in the easiest way possible. That is what I meant. The battle itself rarely goes to stage 4 because the forces planetside are already in chaos. This way the nids expend the least amount of energy on each attack as possible. Blitz


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
The worrying thing is that Octarius is drawing in Orks from all over the galaxy.

That means that eventually, every Ork in the galaxy will be at Octarius.

All we can hope is that the Tyranids win that war, because that's EXACTLY how a mega-waagh will start. Nothing unites Orks like a good fight, and that one's the best - if they win, the Imperium will have to deal with that same united Ork race that they're worried about!

Unlikely, nids are killing orks at a great rate, also they are keeping them incredible busy with the ability that the nids have of replenishing their forces

willhman wrote:
Yes the nids indeed have stages, but once infiltration happens then things start to go fast. Say they have infiltrated the government all the way to the governor, this is likely to happen. Then when the shadow in the warp gets detected and is reported to him, he will not do anything about it. This leaves open the door for the nids to come in with the least amount of resistance possible. Once they land, and the world is already in disarray, then the world will fall from the overwhelming forces of the nids. The planning can take years if not days, but usually, a succesful attack from nids probably ends within a month, that is if everything goes according to plan. For orks, they don't really know what a shadow in the warp is. So they can be hit in surprise fast.

Blitz are not fast planning wise. It takes time to mass up the forces needed for the blitz and time to hide them so they can be discovered. It also takes time to find the chink in the enemies armour so that you can get massive damage in the easiest way possible. That is what I meant. The battle itself rarely goes to stage 4 because the forces planetside are already in chaos. This way the nids expend the least amount of energy on each attack as possible. Blitz

A blitzkreig is a sudden and incisive attack, made without warning. Overwhelming force, made up of combined arms, is applied to to a point in the lines to break it open. Like a lightning strike, hence the name.

This doesn't fit a Tyranid attack. A Tyranid attack isn't a lightning attack, it's not made without warning and it's not combined arms. Again - it's not a lightning fast strike, because it is severely telegraphed. You know it's coming. Whether you do something about it or not is up to you, but you know its coming. From a long way away.

It's overwhelming force, but it's not applied to a specific point, it's made to the entire planet. It's not trying to break a hole in the lines - it's trying to break the lines, period. It's not combined arms, like a blitzkreig. The organisms all strike at different times. Heavy armour, a key component of a blitzkreig, doesn't arrive until the light infantry has battered itself bloody against the enemy lines and they realize they can't overcome it.

A Tyranid attack is a sustained assault. Starting off with fast, light aerial attacks, followed by successive waves of lighter troops, followed by heavy assault creatures if needed. Pretty standard sustained assault tactics. The speed of the attack waves is measured generally in days to weeks, even months if defenses are tough. Again - not perticularly fast, especially for 40k. Other races to it harder, faster and with better combined arms, like Space Marines.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Yes the nids indeed have stages, but once infiltration happens then things start to go fast. Say they have infiltrated the government all the way to the governor, this is likely to happen. Then when the shadow in the warp gets detected and is reported to him, he will not do anything about it. This leaves open the door for the nids to come in with the least amount of resistance possible. Once they land, and the world is already in disarray, then the world will fall from the overwhelming forces of the nids. The planning can take years if not days, but usually, a succesful attack from nids probably ends within a month, that is if everything goes according to plan. For orks, they don't really know what a shadow in the warp is. So they can be hit in surprise fast.

Blitz are not fast planning wise. It takes time to mass up the forces needed for the blitz and time to hide them so they can be discovered. It also takes time to find the chink in the enemies armour so that you can get massive damage in the easiest way possible. That is what I meant. The battle itself rarely goes to stage 4 because the forces planetside are already in chaos. This way the nids expend the least amount of energy on each attack as possible. Blitz

A blitzkreig is a sudden and incisive attack, made without warning. Overwhelming force, made up of combined arms, is applied to to a point in the lines to break it open. Like a lightning strike, hence the name.

This doesn't fit a Tyranid attack. A Tyranid attack isn't a lightning attack, it's not made without warning and it's not combined arms. Again - it's not a lightning fast strike, because it is severely telegraphed. You know it's coming. Whether you do something about it or not is up to you, but you know its coming. From a long way away.

It's overwhelming force, but it's not applied to a specific point, it's made to the entire planet. It's not trying to break a hole in the lines - it's trying to break the lines, period. It's not combined arms, like a blitzkreig. The organisms all strike at different times. Heavy armour, a key component of a blitzkreig, doesn't arrive until the light infantry has battered itself bloody against the enemy lines and they realize they can't overcome it.

A Tyranid attack is a sustained assault. Starting off with fast, light aerial attacks, followed by successive waves of lighter troops, followed by heavy assault creatures if needed. Pretty standard sustained assault tactics. The speed of the attack waves is measured generally in days to weeks, even months if defenses are tough. Again - not perticularly fast, especially for 40k. Other races to it harder, faster and with better combined arms, like Space Marines.

First off, against the orks, who do not know(I Believe, I could be wrong)about the shadow in the warp, the nids can indeed make a surprise attack. It happened on the first worlds of the Octarius sector, when the orks didn't know about the nids, till they were literally raining down on them.

It has been said that the nids land heavy through light armour. Again I refer to the the Octarius war where on planet Orrok the nids landed heavy armour and light armour down to the surface, I believe they even used bio-titans but I'm not sure.

I can't really say anything to the point thing, but since they have enough forces they can indeed take a planet.

Once again Octarius war planet Orrok, this used a complete and total assault that used every type in it I believe(Getting this from Lexicanum...) the planet fell with in a day. That is ridiculous time, especial since the world was defended by orks.

I do concede the point that nids use blitz tactics in the opening stages of conflict. I do not study the nid how long it takes for nids to gain a world, but I do believe that their invasions span usually around 100 days or so. Which is fast if you ask me. But from what I can tell, nids do use fast attack tactics against the orks. Once again refering to Octarius war.

Wouldn't the orkz win because if one dies it automatically starts putting out spores for more boyz, where as the Nids have to wait til phase 4 is overwith.

If phase 4 never finishes, they never start eating, thus never start ro regain strength.

Where as the orkz as soon as one dies it begins to replish the supply of troops.

The battle at Octarius is only being sustained by the nids because they are calling in help from the fleet, where as the orkz are sustaining it by victors becoming stronger, dead becoming more, and reinforcements.

Hmmm, do you think if you ran a Octarius style horde:
Nobs are basic troop choices, boys are unavailable.
Warbosses are Elite troop choices, perhaps could be taken as a standard troop choices if you take a warboss the size of 3 ghazzgulls as your HQ

Would that be accurate? Since only the strong are left and the boyz have all either died or turned into nobs?

Nids eat spores, means there's less Orks.

Now granted, other factions can also remove them (artillery, fire, plasma, melta, necrons weaponry is pretty much the best thing to get rid of Orks.) But that also means that as long as there's spores, there's sustenance for the Nids.

Also, the part about Orks only giving off spores when they die is a myth - according to the original source in Gorkamorka, Orks are constantly shedding spores from the moment they mature.

The other thing to take into account, however, is the number of viable spores that then turn into snotlings, squigs, gretchin or squiggoths rather than Orks - anything less than a Grot isn't worth much, and Squiggoths take a long time to mature.

 DeffDred wrote:
Ork spores grow in days not months.

Where do you get this from?

The fluff seems to indicate that it takes years and years for an ork infestation to become a fighting force.

Snoipah wrote:
Wouldn't the orkz win because if one dies it automatically starts putting out spores for more boyz, where as the Nids have to wait til phase 4 is overwith.

If phase 4 never finishes, they never start eating, thus never start ro regain strength.

Where as the orkz as soon as one dies it begins to replish the supply of troops.

The battle at Octarius is only being sustained by the nids because they are calling in help from the fleet, where as the orkz are sustaining it by victors becoming stronger, dead becoming more, and reinforcements.

Hmmm, do you think if you ran a Octarius style horde:
Nobs are basic troop choices, boys are unavailable.
Warbosses are Elite troop choices, perhaps could be taken as a standard troop choices if you take a warboss the size of 3 ghazzgulls as your HQ

Would that be accurate? Since only the strong are left and the boyz have all either died or turned into nobs?

Phase 4 doesnt need to happen. Since orks and nids are dying all over the place biomass can be harvested at any point they need.

Yes when an Ork dies it releases spores,.. with Nids i believe they go back to the Hive mind and from there pop back in a new body (formed from biomass) Spores hatch in a couple of days/weeks i believe, i think the Hive mind does this a bit faster though..

Nids are the fleet, its not like they call for backup,. The fleet is a Hive mind that controls all nids,.. on the ground this is channeled through Swarmlords and Tyants which in turn guide the army on the ground..

And no you would not be entirely accurate...

Weak boyz will always be there since orks are dying every second So spores are released, baby orks are born, thus they are average size.. Now the ones who can stay alive long enough, yes,.. they will be bigger and stronger then usual.. But Orks tend to be reckless and literally throw themselves into the enemy,.. so even the big ones will die on regular basis. Also Orks need to ''learn'' their skills when they are born ( they know how to fight instinctively though so anything they need to learn just happens mega quick), while the hive mind remembers everything.

Though one more thing why Orks might have the advantage IMO... Even if an Ork dies of a fatal blow,,.. some Orks tend to stand up after a day or 2 because of their fluffwise regeneration like abilities.. On this planet though,.. If some crazy Painboy/Mad dok doesnt use him for spare parts or if a ripper swarm doesnt consume him he might stand up

And its becoming the whole universe of Orks vs 1 massive hive fleet at one point,.. what if Ghazkull and his lads show up there? I think they will stomp em good!


My Nid fluff knowledge might be slightly off since i dont play them or read about them much..

 -Loki- wrote:


That said, regarding the OP - the main difference is that the Orks won't ever all unite. The closest they came was the Warlord that the Emperor and horus slew in the Great Crusade, but even that wasn't all of the Orks united. However, the Tyranids are coming. They are united. One is a theory, one is an eventuality.

First of all horus didn't slay blackfang nor was even close to winning. Horus's, mortarion's and dorn's forces were crushed and without emprah's intervention horus heresy would not exist.

Orks will unite when the situation call for it. As Octavius oes on it call more orks to te scene fighting against a common foe. Unless nids soon the edge over orks they are doomed. Orks get bigger tyranids don't. Eventually you will have armies of carnifex sized orks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Beast#.UUiECVfQnPo

Notice how this all happened after the HH, and therefore was vanquished without the help of Primarchs or the Emperor.

what I would like to see is a shokk attack gun fire a gaunt through it lmao... a carnifex would be funnier but I imagine it wouldnt fit in the suction tube

This is another one of those questions that I can't believe people are seriously (even semi-seriously) debating.

Unless there's been a massive shift in the background material in a limited edition chapbook or audiobook (since I buy and read everything else), we don't even know where the tyranids come from.

We know that they are extra-galactic, but we don't know if they emerged from our galaxy, hibernated between galaxies, and re-entered, entered our galaxy from a single nearby galaxy, or are in every single other galaxy in the universe.

Let that sink in for a minute.




We don't know whether the tyranids are confined to one galaxy, or billions of galaxies.



This would be like asking someone, "Who would win in a fight between [pick your favorite boxer] and somewhere between one and a billion or more people?".

The question is so impossibly vague that you are just making up an answer.

However, we do know that the few extra-galactic probes the Imperium has sent out were still picking up Ork transmissions last time anyone heard from them, which means that Orks, at least, are confirmed to have gone extra-galactic.

 Bobthehero wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Beast#.UUiECVfQnPo

Notice how this all happened after the HH, and therefore was vanquished without the help of Primarchs or the Emperor.

Beast, Blackfang and Urruk are all diffrent orks.

Urruk is some warboss Horus killed.

Beasts is some badass ork as far as I know intoruduced during 6th edition.

Blackfang is even more badass ork that as far as I know is only documented in an official apocalypse sheet.

burnaboy wrote:
Come on this is no competition the Orks will stomp the Nids good and proper then grind them into the dirt abit just to make sure they got the message.

Besides the Orks spores ensure the Orks will never be beaten for good. A catastrophe that destroys alot of the Tyranid's bio mass stores wont be so easily recovered from than a catastrophe that wipes a bunch of Orks out as the spores will replace there numbers and in all likely hood increase them within weeks.

This sort of thing is nonsense. Do Orks just magically grow from nothing? No, they need spores, they need nutrients, they need food etc, and they need time to grow. If you're going to play the "you can deny Tyranids biomass" card, then you also have to accept that the Tyranids can also poison/consume/hijack an Ork spawning ground and "deny the Orks their re-population". Ground consumed by the Tyranids is unable to support life. Not even Orks can breed on an airless rock without aid. Expect a "dead scar" of worlds behind the Tyranid advance into Octarius.

The reason "deny them biomass" is flagged up so much as the anti-Tyranid strategy is because it's about the only thing that works, bar the occasional miracle weapon like the virus that wiped out a Leviathan tendril.You can do the same thing to Orks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
However, we do know that the few extra-galactic probes the Imperium has sent out were still picking up Ork transmissions last time anyone heard from them, which means that Orks, at least, are confirmed to have gone extra-galactic.

There's a big difference between "extra-galactic" meaning in the void between galaxies, and it meaning in another galaxy altogether (considering the distances involved).

Tyranids fight to live.

Orks live to fight.

I'd say Orks win.

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Beast#.UUiECVfQnPo

Notice how this all happened after the HH, and therefore was vanquished without the help of Primarchs or the Emperor.

Beast, Blackfang and Urruk are all diffrent orks.

Urruk is some warboss Horus killed.

Beasts is some badass ork as far as I know intoruduced during 6th edition.

Blackfang is even more badass ork that as far as I know is only documented in an official apocalypse sheet.

Blackfang was removed from existence by the Emperor and his Custodians http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gharkul_Blackfang

Lexicanum certainly make it sound like the Beast Waaagh was the biggest, and even that was stopped by a weakened Imperium.

Da Butcha wrote:
This is another one of those questions that I can't believe people are seriously (even semi-seriously) debating.

Unless there's been a massive shift in the background material in a limited edition chapbook or audiobook (since I buy and read everything else), we don't even know where the tyranids come from.

We know that they are extra-galactic, but we don't know if they emerged from our galaxy, hibernated between galaxies, and re-entered, entered our galaxy from a single nearby galaxy, or are in every single other galaxy in the universe.

Let that sink in for a minute.

The 5th edition rulebook fluff clearly stated Tyranids have consumed a dozen galaxies before ours. This has not been contradicted by 6th edition fluff.

Xyptc wrote:

burnaboy wrote:
Come on this is no competition the Orks will stomp the Nids good and proper then grind them into the dirt abit just to make sure they got the message.

Besides the Orks spores ensure the Orks will never be beaten for good. A catastrophe that destroys alot of the Tyranid's bio mass stores wont be so easily recovered from than a catastrophe that wipes a bunch of Orks out as the spores will replace there numbers and in all likely hood increase them within weeks.

This sort of thing is nonsense. Do Orks just magically grow from nothing? No, they need spores, they need nutrients, they need food etc, and they need time to grow. If you're going to play the "you can deny Tyranids biomass" card, then you also have to accept that the Tyranids can also poison/consume/hijack an Ork spawning ground and "deny the Orks their re-population". Ground consumed by the Tyranids is unable to support life. Not even Orks can breed on an airless rock without aid. Expect a "dead scar" of worlds behind the Tyranid advance into Octarius.

The reason "deny them biomass" is flagged up so much as the anti-Tyranid strategy is because it's about the only thing that works, bar the occasional miracle weapon like the virus that wiped out a Leviathan tendril.You can do the same thing to Orks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
However, we do know that the few extra-galactic probes the Imperium has sent out were still picking up Ork transmissions last time anyone heard from them, which means that Orks, at least, are confirmed to have gone extra-galactic.

There's a big difference between "extra-galactic" meaning in the void between galaxies, and it meaning in another galaxy altogether (considering the distances involved).

The orks create their own living conditions, their excrement's (Their Poo and piss) is all that is need for their spores to grow. The orks are a fungus, as such they do not require much to grow, anytype of wet substance and some ground will do. As such they literally create a never ending supply, orks do something in their base camp, couple of weeks later spores take root, months later, new ork pops up. Easy as one two three but a little longer.

Also please remeber that nids have bio-organisms that eat other bio-organisms, ork spores, this will hurt their production of orks, but the ork spores are extremely hard to kill, and it might fight back in a way, I don't know if it is possible for them.

Orks crash land on a dead world, they lose snots and grots and other things, over time, orks spores pop up from the dead and the excrements of the remaining orks. Decades later, new ork world. Easy as that.

Fire kills spores, explosions kill spores. The Nids will be fine

Uh, might have escaped your notice, but nids don't use fire or explosions.

Edit: spores? The hell, Miko.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Uh, might have escaped your notice, but nids don't use fire

Pyrovores flamespurt says hi.

Carnifexes bioplasma says hi.

While being based on organic acids, both are described as producing fire.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
or explosions.

Not conventional explosives, they have their own biological equivalents. Mostly throwing out acid, or like the new Rupture Cannon, something capable of causing an implosion that can turn a tank inside out. Pretty sure Ork spores aren't immune to acids or implosive effects.

Tyranids are fine.

 Manchu wrote:
Tyranids fight to live.

Orks live to fight.

I'd say Orks win.

Manchu sums it perfectly.

Cite what ya want, say what ya want. Orks win all the way. And don't forget Gork and Mork. Remember they make the emprah shudder with a mere stir, and they brush aside chaos with easeness. If such a fight as to be a total war ever would erupt between orks and 'nids, orks would instinctively come from all around the galaxy and beyond, directed by their gods. They would build bigger, killier weapons, and join forces in growing scale, until they overcome 'nids. That's just the way they work. Orks are not natural born exterminators nor full scale dominators, but they are downright good fighters, the harder the fight the better they fight.

An Octarius ork army btw would have skarboyz (with battlewagon transports) and boyz as troops and stompas as heavy support, at the very least...

Furthermore, a Tyranid invasion of a world isn't just built around macroscopic creatures ripping your face off. It's also a microscopic war as the planet is bombarded with spores of all sorts that drive local flora to extremes, mess with the life cycles of fauna and eventually reduce your lungs to sludge.

I'm sure that the Tyranids can come up with a viral spore that targets nascent Ork fungus and either kills it or does something useful with it.

Tyranids are good at adapting and turning what is used against them back on their foes. Once the Tyranids really get to grips with the biology of the Orks things could be very different.

The hyper-resilient Ork ecosystem versus the hyper-predatory Tyranid ecosystem. Given that the Orks don't change their biology, but the Tyranids do, I think the Tyranids will have the edge in a true war of attrition. The Orks will need fast, brutal and crushing victories like they had at the start of the Octarius war (and even then, they only failed to kill one Hive Ship and that was enough to rebirth an entire tendril of Leviathan).

^

An Ork Waagh is like a tsunami, they destroy everything in its wake, not even giving you time to come up with a counter strategy,.. as said numerous times.. More and more orks are coming, they feel the call of battle in their very soul... the bigger the fight gets, the greater the call gets,.. Right now its a stalemate, but eventually the hive fleet will become so outnumbered it just cant hope to stand against the coming green tide... Orks dont care about sludge lungs 1 ork dies, releases hundreds of spores and is reborn hundreds time over (if nids dont destroy his spores ) But just be glad,.. The Nids will only lose 1 hive fleet, there are many more When da Orks are done Stompin, the waagh will continue untill it loses its momentum... Then it will be small ork bands getting larger and larger all over again to stop another ''undefeatable'' opponent..

Now Nids lovers and Ork lovers! Continue!

I have a hard time imagining the Orks claiming anything more than a moral victory.

Granted they take that hands down. They get to take part in the literally greatest fight in 40,000 years. Can't imagine anything that would make an Ork happier

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
^

An Ork Waagh is like a tsunami, they destroy everything in its wake, not even giving you time to come up with a counter strategy,..

So is a Hive Fleet.

The difference being every Hive Fleet has the same goal, and is directed by the same intelligence, whilst every Waaagh has its own leader, own goals, and doesn't communicate or coordinate at all with each other outside or 'Fight there? Fight there!'.

 rabid1903 wrote:
I have a hard time imagining the Orks claiming anything more than a moral victory.

How do you have a hard time picturing orks claiming anything other then a moral victory?

willhman wrote:

 rabid1903 wrote:
I have a hard time imagining the Orks claiming anything more than a moral victory.

How do you have a hard time picturing orks claiming anything other then a moral victory?

Sorry, guess I should have clarified. I meant I can't see the Orks emerging victorious against the Tyranids. Tyranids are literally hunting them at every level. They even have microorganisms to eat the spores.

I mean, sure the more battles an Ork fights the bigger and badder they get. But every Tyranid that lives is used to make a whole army of better Tyranids. As soon as the Tyranids find something that works it gets distributed to the whole army.

Orks can survive from photosynthesizing light to the algae in their system in the same way coral do.

Orks grow and thrive on conflict, the more protracted the conflict becomes, the stronger the orks become and the stronger the offspring orks from spores released through conflict deaths become.

Tyranids, especially given the new fluff, are vulnerable to burning themselves out through hyperevolving new morphs and not obtaining the vast quantities of food they require to fuel them.

Tyranids are given to massively overwhelming a planet's defenses with all manner of deadly biomorphs in a tsunami of initial violence.



If all orks came together and were working in unison against the hive fleets, they'd obliterate them. Orks literally require starlight to function. Someone earlier said 'ripper beats grot' (which is debatable when 'grot carries gun and possesses opposable thumbs..) but Gaunt sure as all hell does not beat Ork...

My theory?

One on one, a ork beats a nid(AND EVERYFING CUZ ORKZ IS BEST) so if this scenario happened, the first line of orks will fall, but the second line would advance past it, denying the nids the ork spores as food. This would create a bubble for the spores to thrive as the lines advance. And when the spores get to size they help an already powerful line, while the nids crumble since they cant get to the dead or dying to feed.

Of course, the orks wont know what they're doing, they just charge in because its natural to them, and in a way, it helps prevent their dead's spore growth from being bothered.

Gork and Mork were geniuses when they created the orkz, they probably know that if they made all the orkz eager to charge, the dead one's spores will thrive.

 rabid1903 wrote:

willhman wrote:

 rabid1903 wrote:
I have a hard time imagining the Orks claiming anything more than a moral victory.

How do you have a hard time picturing orks claiming anything other then a moral victory?

Sorry, guess I should have clarified. I meant I can't see the Orks emerging victorious against the Tyranids. Tyranids are literally hunting them at every level. They even have microorganisms to eat the spores.

I mean, sure the more battles an Ork fights the bigger and badder they get. But every Tyranid that lives is used to make a whole army of better Tyranids. As soon as the Tyranids find something that works it gets distributed to the whole army.

You do realize that most orks have horrible armour? So they adapt, what will they adapt to? Better claws to cut through armor? Awesome, especially when most of the army has the weakest armour there is, their skin. Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you. Oh I know, a type of micro-organism that kills by eating the flesh of a target. Amazing except that the world has a huge amount of micro-organisms already, the ork spore, and oh yeah some orks are have metal bodies. Not much good.

The orks are a race were you can't really out advance them, you just have to take them on head on. Now yes I am sure there are some exceptions to what I said, but in the long run it doesn't matter, for every adaptation that there is, the orks will just get an advancement from tech. Really this is a head beater fight more then anything.

Nah, Tyranids have it in the bag. Their ruin of the natural environment wouldn't kill the orks straight off, but it is obviously doing enough that one hive fleet is holding a planet in standstill against the arrival of every Ork in the neighborhood. Eventually, the Tyranids will take it home, just like the rest of the galaxy.

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Hunchkrot wrote:
Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Actually, the Octarius war started when Kryptmann lured a tendril of Leviathan to the system. Not one hive ship, but not all of Leviathan either. Given the size of Leviathan, the tentrils are still pretty big, but it's not all of the hive fleet, since the rest of it is still out wrecking up the galaxy.

lets all give a big thank you to our favorite Inquisitor and his gambit, for making this all possible.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

No I understand that in the end that orks are probably almost always outnumbered. What I'm trying to say is that you can't really affect the orks with adaptations. Also, nids want simpler creatures to breed. The more complex, the more energy spent on one creature. That's why they don't have the "perfect" killing machine, cause it takes up wayyy to much Bio-mass.

Octarious in not the biggest ork empire out there. It is one of the biggest yes but the biggest is the Charadon empire. Sorry if I mispelled it. Also they are fighting the biggest Nid hive fleet to date. It might not be all of it but it is a major tentacle. So don't be saying that nids are walking all over them. cause they ain't.

Fungi organism are rather weak to poison and disease, or so I read, so there's that.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Fungi organism are rather weak to poison and disease, or so I read, so there's that.

Might be true, except we don't know what type of fungi this is, I mean we are talking about extraterrestrials here. For all we know they might have a added bonus against poisons and disease because of the fungus, or they might not, we just don't know enough about them to be sure.

Hunchkrot wrote:
Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Its a tendril and its a stalemate.

Orkz having a stalemate with a tendril is a pretty big thing.

Its just a waiting game until every ork becomes a meganob or 95% cybork.

Snoipah wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Its a tendril and its a stalemate.

Orkz having a stalemate with a tendril is a pretty big thing.

Its just a waiting game until every ork becomes a meganob or 95% cybork.

I didn't realize a stalemate was where one side was losing?

The Tyranids are slowly 'winning', in that they're taking ground away from the Orks. As per recent fluff (in the Tyranid issue of White Dwarf a while ago), the Tyranids have started to adapt to the Orks socialogical structure by assassinating Warlords with the Swarmlord. A handful have already been killed, which has destabilised the region and allowed the Tyranids to take multiple continents on Octarius. In other words, the Tyranids are adapting strategically and are making headway to taking the planet.

It was a stalemate as of the Tyranid codex. Now, it's not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

No I understand that in the end that orks are probably almost always outnumbered. What I'm trying to say is that you can't really affect the orks with adaptations. Also, nids want simpler creatures to breed. The more complex, the more energy spent on one creature. That's why they don't have the "perfect" killing machine, cause it takes up wayyy to much Bio-mass.

Not biological adaptions, but adaptions come in many forms. Tyranids, as per recent fluff, are adapting strategically to the Orks sociological structure being based around singular leaders (Warlords) and are taking advantage of it.

willhman wrote:
Octarious in not the biggest ork empire out there. It is one of the biggest yes but the biggest is the Charadon empire. Sorry if I mispelled it. Also they are fighting the biggest Nid hive fleet to date. It might not be all of it but it is a major tentacle. So don't be saying that nids are walking all over them. cause they ain't.

I wouldn't even call it a big tendril of Leviathan. When you look at the utter carnage the rest of the hive fleet is causing, the resources they've devoted to Octarius just isn't very much compared to what would be needed to destroy things like major Forgeworlds.

 -Loki- wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Actually, the Octarius war started when Kryptmann lured a tendril of Leviathan to the system. Not one hive ship, but not all of Leviathan either. Given the size of Leviathan, the tentrils are still pretty big, but it's not all of the hive fleet, since the rest of it is still out wrecking up the galaxy.

I was discounting the space battle before the initial landing, so as to give my argument a little more weight. But fine, I suppose we can be totally honest But also, in the Tyranid codex it wasn't even really a stalemate.They have taken three planets so far,"no signs of stopping","not only surviving, but thriving", things like that. I think it was a stalemate in planetstrike, but that's old news by now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snoipah wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Its a tendril and its a stalemate.

Orkz having a stalemate with a tendril is a pretty big thing.

Its just a waiting game until every ork becomes a meganob or 95% cybork.

I haven't read anything that would imply the Orks are doing anything but prolonging their deaths. And it was a tendril, that was destroyed almost in its entirety in a space battle. Which is very impressive, especially for orks.. But, one ship managed to make landfall, and that one ship has rebuilt itself and is ravaging the sector.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last edit, I promise! I never realized there was a White Dwarf article about this. If there's anything in there, I don't know it. What issue was it?

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

No I understand that in the end that orks are probably almost always outnumbered. What I'm trying to say is that you can't really affect the orks with adaptations. Also, nids want simpler creatures to breed. The more complex, the more energy spent on one creature. That's why they don't have the "perfect" killing machine, cause it takes up wayyy to much Bio-mass.

Not biological adaptions, but adaptions come in many forms. Tyranids, as per recent fluff, are adapting strategically to the Orks sociological structure being based around singular leaders (Warlords) and are taking advantage of it.

willhman wrote:
Octarious in not the biggest ork empire out there. It is one of the biggest yes but the biggest is the Charadon empire. Sorry if I mispelled it. Also they are fighting the biggest Nid hive fleet to date. It might not be all of it but it is a major tentacle. So don't be saying that nids are walking all over them. cause they ain't.

I wouldn't even call it a big tendril of Leviathan. When you look at the utter carnage the rest of the hive fleet is causing, the resources they've devoted to Octarius just isn't very much compared to what would be needed to destroy things like major Forgeworlds.

I was talking about Biological adaptations though... I know that the nids can outsmart the orks, but they can't adapt their bodies to actually make that much of a diffrence without spending huge amounts of biomass on one creature, that might die from a lucky missle to the head.

MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

 -Loki- wrote:

I didn't realize a stalemate was where one side was losing?

The Tyranids are slowly 'winning', in that they're taking ground away from the Orks. As per recent fluff (in the Tyranid issue of White Dwarf a while ago), the Tyranids have started to adapt to the Orks socialogical structure by assassinating Warlords with the Swarmlord. A handful have already been killed, which has destabilised the region and allowed the Tyranids to take multiple continents on Octarius. In other words, the Tyranids are adapting strategically and are making headway to taking the planet.

It was a stalemate as of the Tyranid codex. Now, it's not.

Right until the ork codex...

The individual conflicts like that aren't really comparable, they shift with the story in each new codex. The important bit, and perhaps further reason for tyranid players to seek out Cruddance and rant at him, is that his background severely restricted the Hive Fleets from relentless and remorseless walls of biomechanical horror that cannot be stopped to something akin to a bear waking from hibernation, desperate to feed and consume, frantically evolving new morphs to get this done as fast as possible or they burn themselves out and die off.

He fundamentally changed the way the tyranids operate, this is intentionally introduced weakness to the nids, it was introduced both to them and to necrons to lessen them both in order to give back the crown of Ultimate Bad to Chaos as the design team felt it had been eclipsed a mite by both these xenos.

Nids took a 'fluffnerf'. Given that it was always a 50/50 with them v orks prior to that, yeah, against the Old One's green tac-nuke supersoldiers, as proposed as working in an ordered unison, mate, the bugs would be endangered species in short order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

Indeed, orks flourish in protracted conflict, tyranids exactly the opposite. If the bugs don't break them fast and all orks vs all tyranids, that just isn't going to happen, then it's a good day to be green...

I take the OP means, ALL orks united versus the entire Hive Fleet?

Yeah, Orks would win. Why? Everything outside of this Galaxy is also populated by Orks.

 Soladrin wrote:
I take the OP means, ALL orks united versus the entire Hive Fleet?

Yeah, Orks would win. Why? Everything outside of this Galaxy is also populated by Orks.

There is no evidence to support that, beyond an old and heavily mis-quoted piece about an Imperial probe travelling beyond the galactic halo and still picking up Ork communications. In no way does that translate into there being Orks in any other galaxy, let alone every other galaxy.

Xyptc wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
I take the OP means, ALL orks united versus the entire Hive Fleet?

Yeah, Orks would win. Why? Everything outside of this Galaxy is also populated by Orks.

There is no evidence to support that, beyond an old and heavily mis-quoted piece about an Imperial probe travelling beyond the galactic halo and still picking up Ork communications. In no way does that translate into there being Orks in any other galaxy, let alone every other galaxy.

Same way as there is no evidence of more hive fleets outside the galaxy, it is heavily suggested, but never proven for fact....

"unbeknownst to the Imperium, the threat is of an even greater magnitude, for the bulk of the Tyranids have not yet reached the Imperium's galaxy, their masses still strewn across the void. So immeasurably large is the invasion fleet that its furthest stretched tentacles alone have entered the Imperium's space." 6th ed. Rulebook, pg. 215.

Hunchkrot wrote:
6th ed. Rulebook, pg. 215.

The rulebook I have on hand does't go that high .

Sorry...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Indeed, orks flourish in protracted conflict, tyranids exactly the opposite.

It's funny, because the Tyranid codex is saying the opposite. I know logic playing a part would deem them to be bad at protracted engagements, but 'The Tyranids are thriving' on the Octarius war puts on official stance on this statement - it's wrong. Tyranids are not just doing fine in their biggest protracted conflict yet, they're thriving.

Logic doesn't apply to 40k, and Tyranids are not different.

The strange part of all the Tyranid hate generally comes from people either not reading their fluff, or just not wanting them to be as powerful as GW is making them. Whatever way you cut it, going by official fluff, Tyranids are bascially the 'galaxy ender'. Logic need not apply to them, as per normal 40k. They're numberless, and with the small amount that's hit the galaxy, tremendous damage has been done. More are coming - a lot more.

 Manchu wrote:
MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

No he didn't. He said something silly like "Orks can live off of starlight." Even plants that photosynthesize need water and nutrients, not to mention carbon and oxygen in the air. Tyranids have spaceborne organisms and completely use up all the useful organic molecules in their area of control, meaning they can fight on when orks cannot, and ork spores cannot grow in any ground held by the tyranids long enough for tyrannoforming to start taking effect.

Besides, it has been mentioned repeatedly in the codexes that Tyranids can somehow move the mass they digest from the hive fleet digesting a planet to other parts of the hive fleet via the warp. They can ship in their own food through magic. The orks have not demonstrated this ability.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Besides, it has been mentioned repeatedly in the codexes that Tyranids can somehow move the mass they digest from the hive fleet digesting a planet to other parts of the hive fleet via the warp. They can ship in their own food through magic. The orks have not demonstrated this ability.

Switching sides here for a moment, do you happen to have the source for that particular bit of fluff? Tyranids have always been my favourite element of 40k, and I've followed their evolving fluff almost from the start and I've never come across any confirmation of how they move the excess mass. I've seen lots of theories put forwards, including (as you say) moving it through the Warp, but also giant Hive ships that have never been seen before that come in and carry it all off to parts unknown and also what basically amounts to magic-science with the Tyranids burning all the excess matter up to replenish lost energy after an invasion. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been outright stated one way or another, because there are few, if any, witnesses to the final stages of the consumption of the world.

Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

Which if anything is only even more terrifying. If the main "body" of the Tyranid race is currently outside the galaxy (well, it's confirmed that it is) but more importantly intends to stay outside the galaxy and simply grapple with our worlds with extended tendrils and then pull its winnings back out of reach then we've all got big problems because the bulk of our enemy will be completely out of our reach, and able to use the mass it has claimed to throw an endless swarm at us until all resistance is crushed.

The only space-faring race that could conceivably challenge such a distant and powerful threat would presumably be the Necrons...

Xyptc wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

Which if anything is only even more terrifying. If the main "body" of the Tyranid race is currently outside the galaxy (well, it's confirmed that it is) but more importantly intends to stay outside the galaxy and simply grapple with our worlds with extended tendrils and then pull its winnings back out of reach then we've all got big problems because the bulk of our enemy will be completely out of our reach, and able to use the mass it has claimed to throw an endless swarm at us until all resistance is crushed.

The only space-faring race that could conceivably challenge such a distant and powerful threat would presumably be the Necrons...

You forgot about the dark elder and their black holes in a box.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

No he didn't. He said something silly like "Orks can live off of starlight." Even plants that photosynthesize need water and nutrients, not to mention carbon and oxygen in the air. Tyranids have spaceborne organisms and completely use up all the useful organic molecules in their area of control, meaning they can fight on when orks cannot, and ork spores cannot grow in any ground held by the tyranids long enough for tyrannoforming to start taking effect.

Besides, it has been mentioned repeatedly in the codexes that Tyranids can somehow move the mass they digest from the hive fleet digesting a planet to other parts of the hive fleet via the warp. They can ship in their own food through magic. The orks have not demonstrated this ability.

I was talking about food sources, orks need only sunlight (suns are stars...), I was not suggesting they exist in vacuums.

If it's been mentioned that nids move organic mass to other parts of the fleets via the warp previously, that is no longer the case as the new codex made it VERY clear the revised tyranids do not use the warp at.all. So no 'magic food' for you!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I was not suggesting they exist in vacuums

Orks might be able to survive a vacuum environment though... I mean there are tales of ork ships getting blown up in asteroid belts, then are plagued with ork roks years afterwords. I do not know if that means that orks can live in vacuum(not enough fluff on the subject) but it does point out that orks can indeed survive a certain amount of time in the vacuum of space.

They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Why can't orks survive in a vacuum, besides the radiation and the explosive effect? They can balance their algae production and animal cell usage proabably. Also, who says orks cant evolve? It says they produce by spores. Couldn't that mean external sexual production?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Why can't orks survive in a vacuum, besides the radiation and the explosive effect?

Because nothing says they can? The aforementioned example of a ship exploding in an asteroid field which is then turned into a bunch of Roks, it's more likely sufficient Orks got clear in protective gear.

If we're just going to assume zenos can do anything until something says they can't, well, this sub forum is going to die a horrible death.

Based on my last game (1000 or 1500 pts (forget which) Nids vs Orkz) I would have to give it to Nids. At the end of Turn 6 he had a battlewagon, 5 lootaz and 10 boyz. I had lost...some spawned Termagants and I had more approaching.

Xyptc wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

Which if anything is only even more terrifying. If the main "body" of the Tyranid race is currently outside the galaxy (well, it's confirmed that it is) but more importantly intends to stay outside the galaxy and simply grapple with our worlds with extended tendrils and then pull its winnings back out of reach then we've all got big problems because the bulk of our enemy will be completely out of our reach, and able to use the mass it has claimed to throw an endless swarm at us until all resistance is crushed.

The only space-faring race that could conceivably challenge such a distant and powerful threat would presumably be the Necrons...

Might be right here,... Nids tend to avoid Necrons because there is no biomass to gain.. In an all out fight i would not know but Necrons might be able to win.. they disintatragte on atomic lvls with their gauss rifles,.. so i assume biomass would not be retrievable,.. though nids might be able to harvest on microscopic lvls i dont know...

''On topic''

ORK POWAH!!!

Havent read about orks surviving decapitation,.. i have read though that orks shot in the head tend to stand up after a while,.. if they are lucky.... But arent the orks using garguants and squiggoths? They should rival the Super dinosaurs of the Nid race

Ork fighta-bommas are often open-window affair, and they still fly in space.

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.

Can you actually read the answer I gave?

You don't need a headless body, you can graft the head onto a complete ork and the new two headed ork can operate each half independently for tool use and killing capability. You can further graft on arms to use more weapons.

In citing this, I was further demonstrating the basic ork physiology, the basic rank and file ork boy's superiority over the rank and file termagant of the hive fleets. The Ork boy vs the Tyranid Termagant is what determines the battlefield victories. The Ork's capabilities utterly dominate the Termagant's.

Then add in the previously referenced resilience of Ork forces.

In the 'reality' of 40k, the nids will win as they are unified. The raised question was what would happen if the tyranids fought a unified ork race.

The answer is the bugs lose, badly.

Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

The 'current fight' against Tyranids takes more than 30 minutes. Don't think of it like an actual 40k game. You're not going to be fighting off 10 Termagants when wait for another mycetic spore to come down. You're going to be getting swarmed by thousands. With thousands behind them, and thousands behind them.

Stopping to play doctor during that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.

Can you actually read the answer I gave?

You don't need a headless body, you can graft the head onto a complete ork and the new two headed ork can operate each half independently for tool use and killing capability. You can further graft on arms to use more weapons.

In citing this, I was further demonstrating the basic ork physiology, the basic rank and file ork boy's superiority over the rank and file termagant of the hive fleets. The Ork boy vs the Tyranid Termagant is what determines the battlefield victories. The Ork's capabilities utterly dominate the Termagant's.

Then add in the previously referenced resilience of Ork forces.

In the 'reality' of 40k, the nids will win as they are unified. The raised question was what would happen if the tyranids fought a unified ork race.

The answer is the bugs lose, badly.

Fair enough, though I still don't think you actually answered the question posed (when has an Ork ever continued to fight without its head).

As for whether the Orks unify - they haven't yet. And going by 'the biggest Ork beats down the rest to become Warlord', Even The Beast wasn't unifying all of the Orks, and he was melon-fething huge.

Like I said earlier - Orks winning if they are unified is a theory, because it's never happened. Tyranids winning because they are unified is an eventuality, because they always are, and always will be unified.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

The 'current fight' against Tyranids takes more than 30 minutes. Don't think of it like an actual 40k game. You're not going to be fighting off 10 Termagants when wait for another mycetic spore to come down. You're going to be getting swarmed by thousands. With thousands behind them, and thousands behind them.

Stopping to play doctor during that?

Dats wat da otha boyz be for! they charge forth while da dok patch da utha boyz up!

No, stop, its annoying. Especially for non native speakers.

Orks surviving decaps, could be propaganda, its in their codex, and its a general assumption that the 'dex is filled with it.

My stance on it is that.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

The 'current fight' against Tyranids takes more than 30 minutes. Don't think of it like an actual 40k game. You're not going to be fighting off 10 Termagants when wait for another mycetic spore to come down. You're going to be getting swarmed by thousands. With thousands behind them, and thousands behind them.

Stopping to play doctor during that?

I have no idea where '30 mins' comes from, the ork book I'm reading from, Ere We Go indicates the bodies and heads were recovered after a battle, still alive and able to take grafting. That would indicate far longer than 30 mins to me, more like several hours.

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.

Can you actually read the answer I gave?

You don't need a headless body, you can graft the head onto a complete ork and the new two headed ork can operate each half independently for tool use and killing capability. You can further graft on arms to use more weapons.

In citing this, I was further demonstrating the basic ork physiology, the basic rank and file ork boy's superiority over the rank and file termagant of the hive fleets. The Ork boy vs the Tyranid Termagant is what determines the battlefield victories. The Ork's capabilities utterly dominate the Termagant's.

Then add in the previously referenced resilience of Ork forces.

In the 'reality' of 40k, the nids will win as they are unified. The raised question was what would happen if the tyranids fought a unified ork race.

The answer is the bugs lose, badly.

Fair enough, though I still don't think you actually answered the question posed (when has an Ork ever continued to fight without its head).

As for whether the Orks unify - they haven't yet. And going by 'the biggest Ork beats down the rest to become Warlord', Even The Beast wasn't unifying all of the Orks, and he was melon-fething huge.

Like I said earlier - Orks winning if they are unified is a theory, because it's never happened. Tyranids winning because they are unified is an eventuality, because they always are, and always will be unified.

It's all theory and conjecture, the actual size of the remaining hive fleets operating or in hibernation beyond the galactic rim has never been cited. The number of orks beyond the galactic rim has also never been cited. Both have been alluded to being vast and terrible, neither is every actually measured. We also have the hinted at 'other threat', a species or power that the tyranids are actually fleeing from...

With a slip of whimsy, the next ork codex could clearly state 'As Ghaz's victories continue, so too do the orks flock to his banner, on and on in a tide of unswerving loyalty and obedience to his banner, a waaagh to frighten the gods' and suddenly you have the potential background for a unified greenskin gestalt.

And your bug unity has already been threatened, hive fleets already turn on one another in the background, it's already been observed that splinters who've been travelling apart for a while will attack each other on sight, the winner absorbing the biomass of the losers, just as readily as ork warbosses waaaghs striking at each other... The victorious fleet might emerge with a greater stock of biomass option, but still, it will be weakened by the fighting for a while and in that, they are rendered as weak as any other, independent thinking species in the game.

Then we have the loss of warp movement from the tyranids, massively slowing their fleets movement, the now clearly stated hypermetabolism they must satiate on waking and their greatly weakened from one or two codices before. As I mentioned previously, this is intentional, as is the necron background nerfing, to allow Chaos back to being the biggest of the big bads.

 -Loki- wrote:

The aforementioned example of a ship exploding in an asteroid field which is then turned into a bunch of Roks, it's more likely sufficient Orks got clear in protective gear.

wait, are you serious? We are talking about the orks right? you know, the race that forgoes all safety purposes and tries to pile on as much weapons as possible. Their is no such thing as protective gear on any of their machines. I mean I made a thread awhile back asking if it is possible for orks to survive in space, almost all of them said yes, I even got a logical answer saying that it is indeed possible, he even listed(Kinda, been awhile) how their biology could indeed make it possible for them.

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Here, I will tell you of an ork that gets hit in the face by a bolter round, you know the rocket propelled grenades that space marines use. His name is Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka. You know the ork that is one of the greatest orks around.

Also in the Armageddon book, it gives a short explanation of why the black templar were crushing ork heads, because there had been accounts of orks, losing bodies, but their them coming back afterwords, or something along those lines.

So greatest ork survives a bolt to the face.

Doesn't mean all Orks can survive, or we'd bolting as fast as Usain Bolt right now.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So greatest ork survives a bolt to the face.

Doesn't mean all Orks can survive, or we'd bolting as fast as Usain Bolt right now.

I agree, but it does show that it is possible for an ork to survive a bolt to the face, and then still be a threat. I mean, really what more do you need? If an ork can survive a bolt to the face, isn't it probable for an ork to survive decapitation and still be a threat?

No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So greatest ork survives a bolt to the face.

Doesn't mean all Orks can survive, or we'd bolting as fast as Usain Bolt right now.

I agree, but it does show that it is possible for an ork to survive a bolt to the face, and then still be a threat. I mean, really what more do you need? If an ork can survive a bolt to the face, isn't it probable for an ork to survive decapitation and still be a threat?

The 4th edition Tyranid codex describes a Carnifex surviving Exterminatus by Cyclonic torpedoes, and sitting on the now atmosphere-less rock regenerating. it was awoken by an Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team who then had to finish it.

Have any Orks survived Exterminatus by Cyclonic torpedo? Because if they haven't, Tyranids have just about 1000-upped them.

Just because one of the greatest living orks can tank a bolt to the face, that does not mean every ork can fight without a head. And isn't his skull made of adamantium or something?

Hunchkrot wrote:
Just because one of the greatest living orks can tank a bolt to the face, that does not mean every ork can fight without a head. And isn't his skull made of adamantium or something?

Half of his head was replaced with adamantium after the bolt.

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

Wait, do you mean surviving decapitation? Because we do not know that. Carnifexes are tough, but we do not know if they can survive a decapitation.

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

Wait, do you mean surviving decapitation? Because we do not know that. Carnifexes are tough, but we do not know if they can survive a decapitation.

No, surviving exterminatus by cyclonic torpedo. That thing the Imperium likes to do that incinerates an entire planet, all biological matter and atmosphere. There's fluff of Carnifexes surviving that.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

Wait, do you mean surviving decapitation? Because we do not know that. Carnifexes are tough, but we do not know if they can survive a decapitation.

No, surviving exterminatus by cyclonic torpedo. That thing the Imperium likes to do that incinerates an entire planet, all biological matter and atmosphere. There's fluff of Carnifexes surviving that.

Oh, well yes that would be useful, against the IOM, but against the orks, not so much. Plus, that probably a Ghazzy moment. The carnifex probably had luck on it's side, just like Ghazzy did. The Decapitation, for orks though, can be useful in all kinds of situations. Say the body of an ork body is completely ruined, but its head is fine. Now another ork had it's head crushed, so the dok just puts the ork head on that other orks body, and viola, ork fighter back in fight. This is really useful in protracted wars. Cuts losses down, and brings in fighters. Also thanks to orks robust nature, the body doesn't even have to be full intact, they can organic parts with mechanical ones, bringing even more bodies for use.

willhman wrote:
Oh, well yes that would be useful, against the IOM, but against the orks, not so much. Plus, that probably a Ghazzy moment. The carnifex probably had luck on it's side, just like Ghazzy did. The Decapitation, for orks though, can be useful in all kinds of situations. Say the body of an ork body is completely ruined, but its head is fine. Now another ork had it's head crushed, so the dok just puts the ork head on that other orks body, and viola, ork fighter back in fight. This is really useful in protracted wars. Cuts losses down, and brings in fighters. Also thanks to orks robust nature, the body doesn't even have to be full intact, they can organic parts with mechanical ones, bringing even more bodies for use.

The ability to survive the heat and explosive force from a cyclonic furnace capable of incinerating a planet wouldn't be useful against anyone but the Imperium? What?

It's not a resistance to cyclonic torperdos specifically. It's a testament to how tough Carnifexes are, and Tyranids have quite a few bugs that are even tougher than them.

The fact that a Carnifex, probably the lowest on the Tyranid Monstrous Creature scale, can survive that, is impressive. The fact that the only comparable Ork you can find is the toughest Ork in the fluff at the moment is also pretty evident of how much tougher Tyranids can make their bugs than Orks, if needed. There's one Ghazkull. There's hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough, or tougher, than Carnifexes per invasion.

No, this is not evident on Gaunts, because it's not needed. Gaunts aren't meant to be that tough. But I can't see any evidence of Orks making any land based vehicles as tough as a Carnifex, let alone anything tougher than a Carnifex.

Being decapitated and surviving for 30 minutes? Admirable. Surviving Exterminatus and regenerating in a vacuum, and requiring a ship based Lance weapon to be finished off? Better.

Orks don't do exterminatus. And Carnifexes don't usually survive anywhere NEAR that amount of firepower.

Again, it just got lucky.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks don't do exterminatus.

Orks don't use boltguns either. But resistance to a bolt is surely going to have an impact on a conflict with them.

Again, it's not a resistance to cyclonic torpedos, it's in general how tough they are. If they can survive the heat and impact from a cyclonic torpedo, they're kind of tough, you know?

 Melissia wrote:
And Carnifexes don't usually survive anywhere NEAR that amount of firepower.

Again, it just got lucky.

Well obviously it got lucky. We don't have pages of fluff describing entire heavy assault waves surviving. Even still, it survived heat that would melt a titan to slag.

But the most survivable we see Orks in fluff is their brain surviving 30 minutes after decapitation, or the toughest Ork in the fluff survivng a bolt to the head (who got similarly lucky).

Those aren't really comparitive.

But anyway, since this topic has turned into the usual tiny fluff exerpt dick measuring it usually does, I'll bow out until a new one appears next week.

 -Loki- wrote:

The fact that a Carnifex, probably the lowest on the Tyranid Monstrous Creature scale, can survive that, is impressive. The fact that the only comparable Ork you can find is the toughest Ork in the fluff at the moment is also pretty evident of how much tougher Tyranids can make their bugs than Orks, if needed. There's one Ghazkull. There's hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough, or tougher, than Carnifexes per invasion.

Ok but since this is a nid invasion, shouldn't the tougher creatures be on the planet? yet the only survivor was a carnifex, which as you said was the lowest creature on the monstrous creature scale, but the tougher creatures didn't survive. So that has alot to say about the circumstances about what happened to the carnifex.

Also when Ghazzy was hit by a bolt, he was a ork boy, that is the lowest you can go if you are a ork.

My mistake guys. I went back and I reread the passage, and it talks about mass moving undetected. Back then, the Tyranids used the warp, so I mentally put the pieces together.

MGS, are you serious? I have every Tyranid codex except for the latest one, and they've always had a Shadow in the Warp and used psionic abilities clearly powered by the warp. How can they exist without the warp?

Might as well make the Necrons into space mummies...

Man, I hate GW getting old.

Either way, each circumstance has only happened once, to one person, so they can both be attributed to luck. I'd also like to mention there still is no evidence that orks can continue fighting after decapitation, so we should quit using that example. "one time one ork got shot in the head and got better", does not equate to fighting after decapitation.

If it was written than an ork with a new head grafted onto his body could effectively fire and such fight, you don't need an "official" writer to write a battle where dead orks do get new heads and fight effectively. If you are told that a boy/nob had half his head blown off and replaced with compnents and plating, then fighting on and becoming one of the greatest fighters in (fantasy) written history, you don't need to bring any evidence about other orks being able to do the same. You are already been told they're are able to.

'Nids are full scale predators. Sort of semi intelligent locusts which have developed interstellar travel and lethal weaponry on a battlefield/planetary scale, and they work as a sort of natural recycling effect on a planetary level; they got somewhere, eat everything, then move on and leave the planet to recycle. That is what they are, what they do, and they are pretty good at it.

Orks are ultimate fighters and survivors. You can say they are made to fight everything and survive everything. They will fight against anything, keep fighting while getting pounded, endure it, growing and strengthening through it, and ultimately beating it. They were built so. They were meant so. It is not that they want to be so. They are so. That is what they are, what they do, and they are just the best at it.

That the ork species does not unify is an innate built in limitation for them not being the dominant species and letting others flourish. In fact orks are not dominators, being plenty of examples of collaboration with humans, for example, even contract and employment in both directions. But such a limitation is not an inbuilt self destruction mechanism. Orks are able to work for a common goal, and it has been stated that they are able to do so even at a subconscient level in an interstellar scale.

So there is no point in trying to demonstrate any species owning orks in any way. It is simply not possible. Do you want an ultimate explanation? Well, you got it. Not, better still, get two of 'em:

GORK.

MORK.

Now that is something nobody can even match, as has been widely exposed. The two greatest entities in the warp, far stronger and tougher than any other one, be they chaos powers, emperor of mankind, eldar gods, etc. Both able to communicate with and direct orks and their efforts in a galactic level. Both of them with an unsurmountable invincivility regarding any 'nid effort to conquer them (or anybody else's efforts for that matter). Thing is, just nobodyu can wipe out orks. Nobody. There is an ultimate mechanism to ensure that. You can go rambling for hundreds of pages, bringing every explanation you can think of, but there is simply no way to wipe out orks. And in an ultimate fight, orks have the upper hand. Always. There is simply nothing that can hurt orks in such a level as to affect their survival as a species, and being so, and being them natural born fighters, any such enough protracted war can only ever end with an ork victory (but see below).

Just change the question. Want 'nids winning over orks? Ask for a planet. For an empire. For a subsector. For a sector. But not for a protracted war. Not for a war for a survival of the species. Then you have already lost. because orks will survive everything which is not the material erasing of the galaxy, and possibly even furthest in scale. 'Nids on the other hand won't be able to predate the whole of orks. So they would ultimately lose the fight, tell it as you like, explain it as you like, in as many chapters as you like. The most able predators wouldn't be able to own the ultimate survivors. BUT wait: orks would not ever try to wipe out 'nids. Never, ever. They would not ever try to wipe out such a good fighter (see Ghaz and Yarrick). One can guess the hive mind would ultimately adapt to such a reality and use it to its advantage as a training method for going elsewhere.

So end result is theoretically orks would win such a conflict, but that is never going to happen.

 DOGGED wrote:
If it was written than an ork with a new head grafted onto his body could effectively fire and such fight, you don't need an "official" writer to write a battle where dead orks do get new heads and fight effectively. If you are told that a boy/nob had half his head blown off and replaced with compnents and plating, then fighting on and becoming one of the greatest fighters in (fantasy) written history, you don't need to bring any evidence about other orks being able to do the same. You are already been told they're are able to.

'Nids are full scale predators. Sort of semi intelligent locusts which have developed interstellar travel and lethal weaponry on a battlefield/planetary scale, and they work as a sort of natural recycling effect on a planetary level; they got somewhere, eat everything, then move on and leave the planet to recycle. That is what they are, what they do, and they are pretty good at it.

Orks are ultimate fighters and survivors. You can say they are made to fight everything and survive everything. They will fight against anything, keep fighting while getting pounded, endure it, growing and strengthening through it, and ultimately beating it. They were built so. They were meant so. It is not that they want to be so. They are so. That is what they are, what they do, and they are just the best at it.

That the ork species does not unify is an innate built in limitation for them not being the dominant species and letting others flourish. In fact orks are not dominators, being plenty of examples of collaboration with humans, for example, even contract and employment in both directions. But such a limitation is not an inbuilt self destruction mechanism. Orks are able to work for a common goal, and it has been stated that they are able to do so even at a subconscient level in an interstellar scale.

So there is no point in trying to demonstrate any species owning orks in any way. It is simply not possible. Do you want an ultimate explanation? Well, you got it. Not, better still, get two of 'em:

GORK.

MORK.

Now that is something nobody can even match, as has been widely exposed. The two greatest entities in the warp, far stronger and tougher than any other one, be they chaos powers, emperor of mankind, eldar gods, etc. Both able to communicate with and direct orks and their efforts in a galactic level. Both of them with an unsurmountable invincivility regarding any 'nid effort to conquer them (or anybody else's efforts for that matter). Thing is, just nobodyu can wipe out orks. Nobody. There is an ultimate mechanism to ensure that. You can go rambling for hundreds of pages, bringing every explanation you can think of, but there is simply no way to wipe out orks. And in an ultimate fight, orks have the upper hand. Always. There is simply nothing that can hurt orks in such a level as to affect their survival as a species, and being so, and being them natural born fighters, any such enough protracted war can only ever end with an ork victory (but see below).

Just change the question. Want 'nids winning over orks? Ask for a planet. For an empire. For a subsector. For a sector. But not for a protracted war. Not for a war for a survival of the species. Then you have already lost. because orks will survive everything which is not the material erasing of the galaxy, and possibly even furthest in scale. 'Nids on the other hand won't be able to predate the whole of orks. So they would ultimately lose the fight, tell it as you like, explain it as you like, in as many chapters as you like. The most able predators wouldn't be able to own the ultimate survivors. BUT wait: orks would not ever try to wipe out 'nids. Never, ever. They would not ever try to wipe out such a good fighter (see Ghaz and Yarrick). One can guess the hive mind would ultimately adapt to such a reality and use it to its advantage as a training method for going elsewhere.

So end result is theoretically orks would win such a conflict, but that is never going to happen.

Discussion closed?

Hunchkrot wrote:
Either way, each circumstance has only happened once, to one person, so they can both be attributed to luck. I'd also like to mention there still is no evidence that orks can continue fighting after decapitation, so we should quit using that example. "one time one ork got shot in the head and got better", does not equate to fighting after decapitation.

Orks were decapitated and their heads placed on other bodies and the ork was combat capable again, additional limbs added simply increased the number of weapons they could hold.

So, YES. Orks have suffered decapitation and been able to continue to fight afterwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My mistake guys. I went back and I reread the passage, and it talks about mass moving undetected. Back then, the Tyranids used the warp, so I mentally put the pieces together.

MGS, are you serious? I have every Tyranid codex except for the latest one, and they've always had a Shadow in the Warp and used psionic abilities clearly powered by the warp. How can they exist without the warp?

YES. Go and read the newest tyranid codex, it severely hampers the tyranid race in terms of movement in space, requiring biomass to survive and being generally up gak creek without a paddle if they can't win a war or make severe inroads to obtain food quickly. They are now very limited due to a hypermetabolism, the norn queens burn up huge amounts of food creating new biomorphs and force evolving their troops to combat, if they can't win relatively early, they are boned.

The Eldar understand this and have been wiping out all life on worlds around the fringes of the nid v ork fight from Kryptman's gamble. They are denying the splinter fleet the opportunity to feed whilst it hurls it's self at the wall of orks, to burn it's energy up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:
The fact that a Carnifex, probably the lowest on the Tyranid Monstrous Creature scale, can survive that, is impressive. The fact that the only comparable Ork you can find is the toughest Ork in the fluff at the moment is also pretty evident of how much tougher Tyranids can make their bugs than Orks, if needed. There's one Ghazkull. There's hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough, or tougher, than Carnifexes per invasion.

No, this is not evident on Gaunts, because it's not needed. Gaunts aren't meant to be that tough. But I can't see any evidence of Orks making any land based vehicles as tough as a Carnifex, let alone anything tougher than a Carnifex.
Being decapitated and surviving for 30 minutes? Admirable. Surviving Exterminatus and regenerating in a vacuum, and requiring a ship based Lance weapon to be finished off? Better.

I've already told you the 30 mins thing is a red herring, detach yourself from it, no actual time limit has been set by ork books, only that the heads were recovered after a battle still alive and they were attached to bodies and became fully combat effective.

One carnifex got lucky in an explosion. You have no citation that there are 'hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough' in a planetary invasion. The only comparison you need to be conducting is the millions of orks vs the millions of gaunts and in that, bugs lose. Also I've never encountered a carnifex that wouldn't break given a few lootaz, so screw exterminatus, how many deff guns do you suppose there would be?

There are many, many examples of carnifex (carnifi?) dying to lascannons, plasma fire, hero's punches, being left in the car on a hot day etc and one example of a carnifex surviving an orbital bombardment, which therefore is the normal circumstance and which is the fluke?

Cyclonic Torpedoes

Cyclonic Torpedoes are much more immediate in action than virus bombs, having enough power to ignite a planet's atmosphere following their detonation. The blast radius is large enough to be seen from space and the detonation powerful enough to crack a planet's crust and destabilise its core. Only the forces of the Inquisition and the Adeptus Astartes are known to have access to Cyclonic Torpedoes and can use them to order an Exterminatus.

Virus Bombs

Imperial Virus Bombs release a special virus known as the Life-eater Virus that was genetically designed to quickly spread and destroy all organic cellular structures it infects, reducing all planetary life, whether flora or fauna, to an undifferentiated organic sludge of biochemicals. This process of cellular decay also produces huge volumes of flammable gases as a by-product, which is later ignited and turns the atmosphere into a firestorm that usually takes out whatever life may be left. Only those who may have escaped into especially-deep underground shelters can survive a Virus Bomb attack. The population of Tallarn managed to escape complete destruction this way, but their once-verdant world was forever transformed into a desert. Virus bombs are known for their extreme speed; in the fiction surrounding the Horus Heresy, they completely wiped out Istvaan III's entire population of 16 billion people in only minutes.

Get back to me when orks and nids can survive virus bombing lol

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

There are many, many examples of carnifex (carnifi?) dying to...being left in the car on a hot day

I'll be grinning all day. Thanks.

 ]Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
If it was written than an ork with a new head grafted onto his body could effectively fire and such fight, you don't need an "official" writer to write a battle where dead orks do get new heads and fight effectively. If you are told that a boy/nob had half his head blown off and replaced with compnents and plating, then fighting on and becoming one of the greatest fighters in (fantasy) written history, you don't need to bring any evidence about other orks being able to do the same. You are already been told they're are able to.­

Yes, anecdotical evidence =/= proof. Because going by that example, we can all survive a 10 000 feet fall strapped on an airplane seat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliane_Koepcke)

And as I said earlier, it can easily be codex propaganda in favor of the Orks, just like the Space Marines do crazy stuff in their codex, but people brush it off as Imperial propaganda.

If orks undergo surgery after battle, recieve new heads, and are fully combat capable afterwards, that still does not equate to getting their head cut off and continuing to fight immediately afterwards. It just doesnt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old One eye had his brain shot out by Sergeant Telion. Does this mean every single carnifex can fight on after losing his entire head? No. It means there is a single carnifex out there who is surprisingly tough.

Hunchkrot wrote:
If orks undergo surgery after battle, recieve new heads, and are fully combat capable afterwards, that still does not equate to getting their head cut off and continuing to fight immediately afterwards. It just doesnt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old One eye had his brain shot out by Sergeant Telion. Does this mean every single carnifex can fight on after losing his entire head? No. It means there is a single carnifex out there who is surprisingly tough.

First off, I can't remeber which book, but it is either Rynn's world, or Helsreach, I believe it is helsreach, it stats that a group of marines, after killing off a attacking group of orks, was taking the time for crunching ork skulls, because there have been many times, were a ork thought dead came back and was able to hurt them, even kill space marines again, if you want I can re-read these novels and find out where it is in these books.

Second, it is said that Old One Eye has incredible regenerative abilities. Also because of these abilities, the nid race doesn't want him back into the hive fleet because he has weird genetics, as such, no, there are no other carnifexes out there that are like him, but in Ghazzy's case, he was just a normal ork boy, who got lucky, and became one of the biggest orks out there.

Orks don't do propaganda.

They could, would make sense.

Yeah, I'll brush it off as propaganda and stories made to scare the crap out of the enemies and whatnot.

I personally think, it's a better achievement when, as a high standing ork, you can pluck an apple off a tree and tell your entire army it is a explosive, then throw it to have a grenade sized blast.

Well to Orks fan, that is how it works, to some other people, the Ork will look very silly, as an apple lacks a few parts to be an actual grenade.

Or perhaps planting explosive apples in all the space marines lunch boxes will become the greatest ork guerilla tactic ever.

By your logic, crushing the ork skulls would not help, because the orks would just continue to fight regardless of their head. Much more likely is that they were breaking skulls to ensure none of the more kunnin' orks were hiding among the dead.

As for Old One Eye, the codex states he's just a normal carnifex-strain monster. So if all orks are capable of being Ghazkhghull tough, then all carnifexes could be One Eye tough.

But that's enough of that.

Yes, there are plenty of other accomplishments much more impressive than decapitation. How about that biker who destroyed a Titan.

FYI: Chickens who get their heads off sometimes run around after, not for long though.

Hunchkrot wrote:
By your logic, crushing the ork skulls would not help, because the orks would just continue to fight regardless of their head. Much more likely is that they were breaking skulls to ensure none of the more kunnin' orks were hiding among the dead.

As for Old One Eye, the codex states he's just a normal carnifex-strain monster. So if all orks are capable of being Ghazkhghull tough, then all carnifexes could be One Eye tough.

But that's enough of that.

Ok, how is my logic pointing out that orks can fight without their skulls? I'm just saying that Space marines take the time to destroy ork skulls after a battle, just to make sure they are dead, so they won't come at them at a later date in the war.

As for the Old One Eye, I just re-read the page on lexicanum. Looks like they changed it since the last time I read it. Indeed it is a normality for carnies to have his regenerative powers now thanks to Hive fleet Leviathan. Sorry about that, I was using old fluff. You are right, now Carnies can become another Old One Eye.

No, I was referring to the earlier point about Orks fighting without heads. If they could, then crushing the skulls wouldn't be too useful. I'm too lazy to check who posted the headless fighting thing, but your logic above was sound.

Hunchkrot wrote:
No, I was referring to the earlier point about Orks fighting without heads. If they could, then crushing the skulls wouldn't be too useful. I'm too lazy to check who posted the headless fighting thing, but your logic above was sound.

I believe it twas me, it was how space marines were stomping on ork skulls to make sure the orks were dead, because there have been many cases of orks suffering wounds that would kill any sane creature, only hurting orks and then these orks who are supposed to be dead from those wounds would come around and do an attack against those same forces and cause casualties. In the end it is just saying that orks are really annoying if you don't destroy the brain.

Bobthehero wrote:They could, would make sense.

Yeah, I'll brush it off as propaganda and stories made to scare the crap out of the enemies and whatnot.

Orks don't make stories to scare the crap out of enemies; orks do fight the crap out of enemies.

Phonics wrote:I personally think, it's a better achievement when, as a high standing ork, you can pluck an apple off a tree and tell your entire army it is a explosive, then throw it to have a grenade sized blast.

You know, it is possible that if orks are convinced that an apple can work as a grenade, it actually could work as a grenade.

Bobthehero wrote:Well to Orks fan, that is how it works, to some other people, the Ork will look very silly, as an apple lacks a few parts to be an actual grenade.

In spite of that. Orks know it is a fruit, they're not mindless bugs, c'mon. Orks evolve to be the ultimate fighters and survivors. 'Nids on the other side are no more than oversized bugs waiting for the right boot to stomp on 'em. And you know, stompin' is an old favourite of orks...

Besides, you can fear an ork armed with an apple. An ork can kill you with an apple. A 'nid can only consume apples.

My brain is actually hurting reading through the last couple of pages with all the ork fanboyism. The arguements are pointless and nonsensical. Ghazz had a bolter explode in his face and lived. Big freaking whoop! Humans survive bullets going through their face and live, have their limbs blown apart and live. That surviving decapitation thing again big whoop. So you have a lifeless body and a head screaming "arghhhhh my body!! What the f**k happened to my body". Seeing as how everybody is going the fanboy way then so will I. As long the nids are in synapse they are invincible. A gaunt has his lower body blown away but the hive mind says you still got your gun so keep firing. If that doesn't float your boat then how about they creat some thing like old one eye but better a swarmlord with super regen abilities that when it gets shot or stabbed its wounds automatically heal. It gets blown to bits but all cells regroup in a matter of seconds. Sorry for grammar and spelling on my iPod

Jayo'r wrote:
My brain is actually hurting reading through the last couple of pages with all the ork fanboyism. The arguements are pointless and nonsensical. Ghazz had a bolter explode in his face and lived. Big freaking whoop! Humans survive bullets going through their face and live, have their limbs blown apart and live. That surviving decapitation thing again big whoop. So you have a lifeless body and a head screaming "arghhhhh my body!! What the f**k happened to my body". Seeing as how everybody is going the fanboy way then so will I. As long the nids are in synapse they are invincible. A gaunt has his lower body blown away but the hive mind says you still got your gun so keep firing. If that doesn't float your boat then how about they creat some thing like old one eye but better a swarmlord with super regen abilities that when it gets shot or stabbed its wounds automatically heal. It gets blown to bits but all cells regroup in a matter of seconds. Sorry for grammar and spelling on my iPod

As a tyranid fan, I think the battle would be a ork....loss.... The main problem is the fact that tyranids would just consume their spores along with the planet... I really hate to say that as I love orks too. In space the orks may stand a chance. Please stop giving examples of one creature everyone! Give examples that multiple orks/nids do.

Its going to depend entirely on the battle, people keep bringing up the more Ork reinforcements is more biomass but in the grand scheme of things that is nothing. The aftermath of a battle is not a huge meal for the Tyranids, wiping out a planets defences and stripping every bit of organic matter from the planet is.
Think Nids land on Earth, theirs seven billion humans to eat sure, but then theirs every tree, plant, insect, animal, the soil, the ocean. The nids need an area to basically strip mine, the more they expand this area the more forces they can commit, if the Orks force a stalemate and the nids commit more ships they're loosing out because those ships should be decimating other planets to build more ships, at the end theres less food for each to move on, less to build new hives and if the hive is concentrated they're more vulnerable to a kunning Ork crashing a couple dozen Roks into the fleet and I think a damaged hive ship is a bigger loss to the fleet than almost any amount of committed ground troops.

Hive fleets build strength by smashing the resistance and then consuming the planet as quickly and efficiently as possible to build more hive fleets so the invasion can theoritically exponentially grow and grow.

I think a nid fleet either dies because the hive ships straight up get destroyed or the initial invasion gets forced back and the hive ship has to cannibalise itself to commit more forces and dies.

If it does smash the initial defences then it wins because no matter how many forces it did destroy and loose its got an entire planet to strip down to rock and build more ships.

That being said its Stagnant 40k and GW loves a never ending stalemate.

Jayo'r wrote:
My brain is actually hurting reading through the last couple of pages with all the ork fanboyism. The arguements are pointless and nonsensical. Ghazz had a bolter explode in his face and lived. Big freaking whoop! Humans survive bullets going through their face and live, have their limbs blown apart and live. That surviving decapitation thing again big whoop. So you have a lifeless body and a head screaming "arghhhhh my body!! What the f**k happened to my body". Seeing as how everybody is going the fanboy way then so will I. As long the nids are in synapse they are invincible. A gaunt has his lower body blown away but the hive mind says you still got your gun so keep firing. If that doesn't float your boat then how about they creat some thing like old one eye but better a swarmlord with super regen abilities that when it gets shot or stabbed its wounds automatically heal. It gets blown to bits but all cells regroup in a matter of seconds. Sorry for grammar and spelling on my iPod

It is you who have gone the fanboy way, nothing wrong about it as long as it is not meant to insult anyone; people stating about Ghazz or the carnifex were making citations that may serve as examples by extrapolation, with more or less fortune. And it is official background. Even interpretation and speculation has been made referring to such background information. Surviving decapitation for a given time (note that you only cited part of the thing, and that is wrong) is again something written in official fluff so it may serve as an example, moreover as it has been referred to more than once. There is also people claiming and citing about 'nids. If you want to make a confronting statement, be fun and civil or be boring and civil; look for Void__Dragon's posts, answers and questions and answers to his questions as an example of confrontation in a maybe annoying but definitely constructive, civil and respectuous manner.

By the way I guess such a response by the hive mind would not go the way of creating big super creatures but more resilient and powerful lesser ones to check ork troops, which are seen as superior to 'nid ones (read gaunts).

Orks would win. Tyranids can only build on Creep so they can't deploy forward bases or staging areas easily.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Tyranids can only build on Creep so they can't deploy forward bases or staging areas easily.

That's the ZERG from Starcraft..... COMPLETELY different game. Lulz

Oh just a piece of random information, did you know that it is rumored that Blizzard entertainment actually approached Gw and tried to make a warhammer 40k game? Gw turned them down, so Blizzard created Starcraft!

I think she knows that. It was a joke.

Don't be silly, Melissia. The mechanicum do not joke.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Don't be silly, Melissia. The mechanicum do not joke.

There goes my dream of being a mechanicum stand-up comedian...

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As far as I can tell, no one has explained how the tyranids could resolve their long-term vulnerabilities regarding biomass. The orks will not starve as fast as the nids. That means the nids have to overwhelm the orks quickly and the fluff does not seem to support that they can reliably do this.

 Manchu wrote:


As far as I can tell, no one has explained how the tyranids could resolve their long-term vulnerabilities regarding biomass. The orks will not starve as fast as the nids. That means the nids have to overwhelm the orks quickly and the fluff does not seem to support that they can reliably do this.

Because a carnifex survived exterminatus apparently.

Seriously, again, they have suffered the additional background power reduction of losing warp travel, their fleets move dramatically more slowly now. Yet another insult added to the injuries of the last codex. It really did knock them off their perch as the biggest of the big bads, just as intended.

 Manchu wrote:
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As far as I can tell, no one has explained how the tyranids could resolve their long-term vulnerabilities regarding biomass. The orks will not starve as fast as the nids. That means the nids have to overwhelm the orks quickly and the fluff does not seem to support that they can reliably do this.

True, the Tyranids use biomass so quickly when they are invading a world that they run the risk of burning themselves out. On the other hand, this super-fast biology also means that they can recover from near-extinction in an incredibly short time; enough to wipe that silly grin off of an Ork world in short order. This brings me back to the whole Ghorala war; the Tyranids were reduced to a single Hive Ship, and then when that was killed they were reduced to just a light shower of Mycetic Spore son an incredibly well fortified (and unified) Ork world. They went on to recover, consume the planet and re-develop that entire tendril of Leviathan.

So how do the Tyranids resolve their long-term need to feed? Easy. They feed. On Orks. Of which there are a great many.

Xyptc wrote:
So how do the Tyranids resolve their long-term need to feed? Easy. They feed. On Orks.

Trouble is, that gets us exactly to the same place -- Tyranids needing to overwhelm orks quickly. I think this is because feeding is not a long-term need for a Tyranid force; rather, it is the most immediate need imaginable. The point is, Tyranids are always operating on a deficit of calories. This is why they prowl the Void looking for galaxies to guzzle rather than staying put and ... well, just farming basically. They cannot metabolically afford to do anything but consume and even that act of consumption needs to be extremely efficient. In terms of efficiency, Orks are the opposite. Nothing they do is necessarily efficient because it does not need to be. The Nids have to constantly balance their metabolic checkbook (which, again, is always in the red) and every Ork victory is an extremely nasty stomach ache. The Orks don't deal in that kind of precision and it makes them very durable. All other things being equal (and that's where the fluff examples are iffy as they are so broadly told), Orks and Nids might stalemate on Day 1 but the Orks only get stronger in the situation of stalemate whereas Nids get weaker. One thing the Nids have in their favor is that they arrive in overwhelming force whereas Orks need to get going. That's why it's so crucial in this scenario for the Nids to win fast.

What would happen if a kroot ate an ork and a nid?

So GW nerfed the Tyranids and the Necrons to make Chaos look more like a threat? How long until they do they same to the Orks?

The sad part is that Chaos is still just a joke who can never win by their own design. Sure, they have a lot of compelling background, but they just don't make a convincing Big Bad at all.

I got my money on nids. Irks know no strategy other than rush headlong into battle.

The hive mind is a greater entity with the ability to adapt in real time using synapse nodes to interpret success or failure on a skirmish by skirmish basis. Most importantly the hive mind entity can easily use its ever present will and its omniscience-like knowledge to overcome its foes.

roxor08 wrote:
I got my money on nids. Irks know no strategy other than rush headlong into battle.

There are many examples of this being wrong, Ghaz has defeated the most erudite minds in Imperium military for many battles, the entire Blood Axe clan is dedicated to being sneaky, evasive and tactical, the orks are best described as possessing little higher intelligence and much low cunning.

roxor08 wrote:

The hive mind is a greater entity with the ability to adapt in real time using synapse nodes to interpret success or failure on a skirmish by skirmish basis. Most importantly the hive mind entity can easily use its ever present will and its omniscience-like knowledge to overcome its foes.

The hive mind is not an entity. There is no superbrain lurking somewhere. The hive mind exists throughout the fleets and is extremely variable, being an amalgam of the creatures that make it up. It's certainly not omniscient. In the case of a fleet encountering resistance, where it's falling into hunger and desperation, it's likely the amalgam will make more and more mistakes due to the rising conflicting wants and needs making it up and the lessening of it's numbers to attrition.

roxor08 wrote:

The hive mind is a greater entity with the ability to adapt in real time using synapse nodes to interpret success or failure on a skirmish by skirmish basis. Most importantly the hive mind entity can easily use its ever present will and its omniscience-like knowledge to overcome its foes.

Why does everyone think the hive mind is a entity? The hive mind is the gestalt collective thought of everything from a zoanthrope to a gaunt.

Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

roxor08 wrote:
Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

Because 'orks charge headlong into things unlike nids'. Tyranids are the very epitome of throwing living troops at a target till it runs out of ammo. The Swarmlord is famous as a creature because it uses tactics and strategy otherwise nids just try to saturate and overwhelm.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

Because 'orks charge headlong into things unlike nids'. Tyranids are the very epitome of throwing living troops at a target till it runs out of ammo. The Swarmlord is famous as a creature because it uses tactics and strategy otherwise nids just try to saturate and overwhelm.

Not true at all. At ghorala (not 100% on spelling) nids used tactics to consume the planet. They charged skar fangs fortress then retreated drawing the orks out. Then used venomthropes to kill his squad and lictors to rip him to shreds

Deathleaper is another example of nids tactical genious by destroying the morale of the soldiers by scaring their leader shitless

Jayo'r wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

Because 'orks charge headlong into things unlike nids'. Tyranids are the very epitome of throwing living troops at a target till it runs out of ammo. The Swarmlord is famous as a creature because it uses tactics and strategy otherwise nids just try to saturate and overwhelm.

Not true at all. At ghorala (not 100% on spelling) nids used tactics to consume the planet. They charged skar fangs fortress then retreated drawing the orks out. Then used venomthropes to kill his squad and lictors to rip him to shreds

Deathleaper is another example of nids tactical genious by destroying the morale of the soldiers by scaring their leader shitless

Ok, Ghorla(No one knows how to spell it) was a something that will not happen in most cases. The reason being, is that the nids landed, and THEY were the ones that was outnumbered. This is never the case. It is either, they are out numbered by alot, or it is around even. Because they were out numbered, they had to literally use Guerrilla tactics, something that we never hear about, because nids never use those tactics, unless the Swarm lord is there.

Another reason, the nids won, was because they were not a threat to the orks planet side. They were at MOST a couple thousand. Orks, when not faced with a THREAT usually do not worry about it, so they turn to each other. Using this to its advantage, the nids, started to use hit and runs. Orks could have stopped this at anytime, but because they didn't belive that the nids were a threat, then they didn't act. I mean what ork, would kill something that could give it a proper fight?

This debate again? Though it's fun to speculate, it's a lot like scientists estimating the number of lifeforms in the universe: unknown x unknown x unknown x unknown = yes, wait for it...UNKNOWN!

By the way, how is it that orks don't need to eat much anyway? I would think their activity would require a great deal of nutrition, at least as much as a tyranid. Are they plants or animals? or neither? Regardless, tyranids seem to have at least one advantage - wiping out pockets of them still garners the hive mind information, whereas wiping out orks is information lost to the orks. The orks may need to start over a few times in learning something, the tyranids do not.

Orks seem able to "farm" food from their own waste.

I made this distinction earlier but it's worth repeating: Nids fight to live while Orks live to fight. If Orks did not want to fight, they could just hole up in some system and do fine. Nids could not do that. They must move on to a new food source to survive. This alone shows us that Nids have a major weakness vis-a-vis Orks.

^ That is very interesting; I hadn't considered that.

It seems though the tyranids would also be able to hibernate considering their ships plod across the cosmos in search of fresh resources.

Yep, the Hive can shut down and in fact sometimes must shut down for lack of food. This is the weakness I was talking about that Orks don't share.

 Manchu wrote:
Orks seem able to "farm" food from their own waste.

Actually, Orkoid ecology is quite interesting. It's part of their genetics.

Ork spores first spawn mushrooms and snotlings to tend to the mushrooms. Then, as the gestalt psychic energy from the snotlings gets strong enough, it starts spawning grots, whom start building infrastructure, weapons, camps, etc, in preparation for the final stage, in which Orks spawn, and form the head of the society.

On a side thought, do tyranids have a preference for biomass that fights back? I know this may seem silly, but wouldn't it be less effort to harvest a planet with little animal life but rich with plant life? Is there some stimulus to attack higher beings? Is a psychic presence needed, such as Terra, or even orks for that matter? Is that why Necrons are left alone?

I wonder because it seems there would be more planets of biomass without much resistance, so it would seem more tyranid creatures would not be combat-oriented but more akin to giant harvesters. Great, ponderous slugs slowly scouring every square foot of the planet surface comes to mind.

Maybe in the next codex? : P

They probably DO hav ethat sort of thing.

We just don't hear about it because 40k focuses on war.

The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Hunchkrot wrote:
The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Ok first off, the orks did not perceive the nids as a threat. This is obvious because the orks didn't retaliate. It has been shown many a time were an ork warboss is killed, and his waaaagh falls apart. The reason it falls apart is because there is no enemy that is tuff enough for them. At this time, warbosses who wanted to be leader of the Waaaagh fight for the leadership. Because of their inner fighting, this allows said weak enemies to become threats, were as before they were not. An example of this is Ghorola. Because the nids numbers were so low, the orks thought that Skarfang died because he was just weak.

If Skarfang was a tuff ork then he would have taken the nids down easily. Since the bugs killed him, then logically, he was a weak boss, it wasn't cause the nids were strong opponents, just that Skarfang was stupid and weak. I mean, how could they be a threat, only one ship got through, and landed not even a tribes worth of nids, that shouldn't be so tough.

This is the kinda stuff the ork warbosses thought as they battled each other because they thought that they were the toughtest orks out their and so on and so forth. The nids didn't really kill the orks, it was the ork warbosses pride. If you read the books, what usually stops the orks from actually winning is their belief that they can't possible lose till it is to late to see that because they thought the couldn't lose they left openings that the enemy could exploit to their victory. This happens alot in today's warfare and will continue to happen for as long as we see it.

Also Genestealer cults do not count as Guerrilla warfare. The reason being is that, they are a vanguard strain, meant to weaken the enemy, so that the main invasion of the hive fleet may commence with as little difficulty as possible. To do this, genestealers integrate themselves into society, and then when prepared, go for all out rebellion. This is to stir up chaos.

Other reasons why genestealer cults don't use Guerrilla warfare is because, when they start their revolution, they will usually have a good portion of the population on their side. Also, genestealers should have infiltrated the government by now, all the way to the top. Because of this, this effectively stops the military on the planet from becoming able to work efficiently. Indeed, it isn't unlikely to see two regiments of loyal pdf fighting each other because they both believe the other is corrupted.

Guerrilla warfare is when a smaller force fights a larger force using unorthadox tactics, and yes the genestealers do use unorthadox tactics, by the time they are usually found out, they are not the smaller force. The genestealers invade, integrate themselves part of the system, then ripe the system in half, effectively cutting off a united enemy. Indeed genestealer cults usually are the ones that are the larger force, and the IOM is the one using guerrilla tactics, because the genestealers have either fooled, infected, and put in people who will serve them. Brood brothers, serve to make the bulk of the pdf forces, so that when the time comes, they will turn, and leave the rest of the pdf without an army. Genestealers and 4th generations will infect\take over commanding positions in the pdf, making leadership a problem. This effectivly leaves a nothing but chaos, so that when the hive fleet comes there is no organized defence waiting for them.

Genestealers are not Guerrilla fighters but Saboteurs, and sleeper agents.

Skar fang did perceive them as a threat. In the current nid codex there's a quote from skar fang saying "dis ain't no stinkin scrap against puny gits dat run and hide behind walls when the killing starts, dis is proper fightin"

Lets move away from ghorala you still haven't argued against deathleaper being an example of nid tactics and the doom is also another example

Hive fleet jormungander also used strategy "jormungander favoured subtler methods than the siege tactics displayed by other hive fleets"

Interesting read


If it was mentioned already, sorry for reposting it

The War for Armageddon has a lot of infos about how fast orks grow from spore to "fighters". The more pressure, the faster the orks grow/reproduce. So on Octa there will be orkz grown to the seize of nobs in days I guess since on Arma it takes them around two months.

Genestealer cults don't work in Orkish society.

In fact, the very small cults that do survive being torn apart in the ork kultcha are swept up, genestealers and all, into the Ork Waagh.

Ork genestealer cults were available as 'freebootaz' in the same named book because the genestealer instinct is overwrought by the massive ork psychic power around them, they serve the orks they try to infiltrate, if the orks don't turn on them and break them for 'bein weird bugz'.

So, some things to consider:

Genestealer tactics, that would work on human, eldar, tau or most anything else biological in the galaxy, don't work on Orks. The Bugs end up serving the Greenskin kultcha.

Ork Weirdboyz can resist and effectively trap possession attempting Greater Daemons... Their psychic powers and the huge onslaught of the Waagh are, at least, capable of resisting the shadow in the warp and may well be capable of disrupting the synapse 'chain of command'. They serve two gods, often cited as beings so powerful they can terrorize the chaos gods like a couple of giant green jocks beating up the emos.

Orks can survive without food, by utilizing the algae in their system to photosynthesize and produce starches.

Orks flourish in conflict and especially in protracted conflict, growing larger, more aggressive and more likely to produce new weapons of war (Mekboyz, painboyz etc are stimulated by warfare to experiment further, creating new forms of weaponry, just like nids biomorphs).

Orks have warp-capable fleets, they can navigate the warp highly effectively using weirdboyz.

Tyranids are therefore unable to infiltrate and undermine ork world societies.

Tyranids must consume large amounts of biomass rapidly or fall back into a potentially deadly hibernation brought on by weakness.

Tyranids are incredibly slow in moving their fleets since the Narval (sp) was introduced and warp travel taken away.

It would be a big and propa fight, but if we're going All vs All and taking that, without actual numbers, to be around the same size forces, spanning entire star systems, the unified orks will resist the tyranids, entrench and then start pushing back, and when that happens, they'll sweep the bugs off the table.

And dont forget about the Ork startegists!!! Tricksy gitz! They surely give the orks an overwhelming advantage!

Get 'em ladz! Dakka dakka dakka!
WAAAGH! THE ORKS! WAAAGH!

Rotgob, ork strategist





Orks,.. gotta love em

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Genestealer cults don't work in Orkish society.

In fact, the very small cults that do survive being torn apart in the ork kultcha are swept up, genestealers and all, into the Ork Waagh.

Ork genestealer cults were available as 'freebootaz' in the same named book because the genestealer instinct is overwrought by the massive ork psychic power around them, they serve the orks they try to infiltrate, if the orks don't turn on them and break them for 'bein weird bugz'.

So, some things to consider:

Genestealer tactics, that would work on human, eldar, tau or most anything else biological in the galaxy, don't work on Orks. The Bugs end up serving the Greenskin kultcha.

Except that the most recent material on this, the last Tyranid Codex, has the Genestealer Cult in the Octarius sector thriving and spreading far and wise with great ease, before finally being purged. So while the Genestealer tactics that work on humans don't work on Orks, they clearly did something else that worked extremely well. Well enough to summon a sizable tendril of Leviathan.

Codex info since several years ago should be ignored... See Necrons, who were big bad boys and now are just skinny dudes next door. Next Ork codex could say, what, that some warboss has raped a Hive Queen and that 'nids are slowly but surely becoming a newer squig breed or somefink.

Xyptc wrote:

Except that the most recent material on this, the last Tyranid Codex, has the Genestealer Cult in the Octarius sector thriving and spreading far and wise with great ease, before finally being purged. So while the Genestealer tactics that work on humans don't work on Orks, they clearly did something else that worked extremely well. Well enough to summon a sizable tendril of Leviathan.

Does it state genestealer cults?

Let me go check this..


Page 30 of the nid codex says 'within weeks the tyranid infestation had spread to a dozen worlds' which does not mention stealer cults, nor tyranid dominance on those worlds, but likely genestealers reaching orkish worlds from the Hulk that Kryptman sent into that realm and sending out psychic signals.

Is there any other part of the codex that indicates cults of greenstealers? Or of them dominating the local orkish cultures? I'm not finding any.

willhman wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Ok first off, the orks did not perceive the nids as a threat. This is obvious because the orks didn't retaliate. It has been shown many a time were an ork warboss is killed, and his waaaagh falls apart. The reason it falls apart is because there is no enemy that is tuff enough for them. At this time, warbosses who wanted to be leader of the Waaaagh fight for the leadership. Because of their inner fighting, this allows said weak enemies to become threats, were as before they were not. An example of this is Ghorola. Because the nids numbers were so low, the orks thought that Skarfang died because he was just weak.

If Skarfang was a tuff ork then he would have taken the nids down easily. Since the bugs killed him, then logically, he was a weak boss, it wasn't cause the nids were strong opponents, just that Skarfang was stupid and weak. I mean, how could they be a threat, only one ship got through, and landed not even a tribes worth of nids, that shouldn't be so tough.

This is the kinda stuff the ork warbosses thought as they battled each other because they thought that they were the toughtest orks out their and so on and so forth. The nids didn't really kill the orks, it was the ork warbosses pride. If you read the books, what usually stops the orks from actually winning is their belief that they can't possible lose till it is to late to see that because they thought the couldn't lose they left openings that the enemy could exploit to their victory. This happens alot in today's warfare and will continue to happen for as long as we see it.

Also Genestealer cults do not count as Guerrilla warfare. The reason being is that, they are a vanguard strain, meant to weaken the enemy, so that the main invasion of the hive fleet may commence with as little difficulty as possible. To do this, genestealers integrate themselves into society, and then when prepared, go for all out rebellion. This is to stir up chaos.

Other reasons why genestealer cults don't use Guerrilla warfare is because, when they start their revolution, they will usually have a good portion of the population on their side. Also, genestealers should have infiltrated the government by now, all the way to the top. Because of this, this effectively stops the military on the planet from becoming able to work efficiently. Indeed, it isn't unlikely to see two regiments of loyal pdf fighting each other because they both believe the other is corrupted.

Guerrilla warfare is when a smaller force fights a larger force using unorthadox tactics, and yes the genestealers do use unorthadox tactics, by the time they are usually found out, they are not the smaller force. The genestealers invade, integrate themselves part of the system, then ripe the system in half, effectively cutting off a united enemy. Indeed genestealer cults usually are the ones that are the larger force, and the IOM is the one using guerrilla tactics, because the genestealers have either fooled, infected, and put in people who will serve them. Brood brothers, serve to make the bulk of the pdf forces, so that when the time comes, they will turn, and leave the rest of the pdf without an army. Genestealers and 4th generations will infect\take over commanding positions in the pdf, making leadership a problem. This effectivly leaves a nothing but chaos, so that when the hive fleet comes there is no organized defence waiting for them.

Genestealers are not Guerrilla fighters but Saboteurs, and sleeper agents.

You do have a very valid point on genestealers being saboteurs rather than guerrilas. I'd never looked at it like that. But as for Skarfang? That's a whole lot of inferrence. I've never read anything that stated how strong Skarfang was, or anything that suggested the orks didn't know he was killed by nids, or anything that suggested the orks didn't percieve the nids as a threat, before or after Skarfang's death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, there weren't any cults in Octarius. But I do remember reading about the existence of ork cults recently. In the background story for the campaign weekend for June, maybe? I'll look it up later.

Hunchkrot wrote:

And no, there weren't any cults in Octarius. But I do remember reading about the existence of ork cults recently. In the background story for the campaign weekend for June, maybe? I'll look it up later.

They exist, in limited numbers. You used to be able to buy them to work in Ork armies, the genestealers fell into working for the orks instead of the intended, due to the ork's odd reproductive cycles and really potent psychic power.

Lexicanum, citing Freebooterz, says Orks can instinctively detect alien infection. If that is accurate (MGS, can you confirm?) and still current, it pretty much puts the last nail in the coffin for arguing genestealers are a Nid advantage in this debate. Genestealers are only a large-scale threat if they can go undetected for a long period of time.

 Manchu wrote:
Lexicanum, citing Freebooterz, says Orks can instinctively detect alien infection. If that is accurate (MGS, can you confirm?) and still current, it pretty much puts the last nail in the coffin for arguing genestealers are a Nid advantage in his debate. Genestealers are only a large-scale threat if they can go undetected for a long period of time.

It is indeed and has ever been thus.

The genestealer cult relies on it's human (or whatever) looking generations or infected hosts passing through normal society and achieving positions of power, Orks can 'smell' the 'not right-ness' of genestealer taint, just as they can with chaos taint or (from back in the day) vampire taint.

And, as I mentioned, it's also clearly stated in these old books that the genestealers get caught up by the saturation of gestalt orkish psychic energy and succumb to it, the smallish bug-hybrid warbands become an underclass/mercenary faction of regular orkish society and serve in the ork waaaghs, even against hive fleets...

It has ever been thus and has never yet been retconned.

It's strange that the "static charge" of Waaagh! psychic energy does not disrupt the Hive Mind.

 Manchu wrote:
It's strange that the "static charge" of Waaagh! psychic energy does not disrupt the Hive Mind.

I imagine that it would, again it would be dependent on numbers, saturation and dominance of forces, but I'd well imagine the disruptive, brutal and chaotic nature of the Waaagh backfeeding through the local shadow in the warp would wreck serious damage to synapse control and communications, much like daemons and their warpstorms.

Then again, if there is sufficient tyranid dominance, the shadow in the warp would start bringing it's black brick wall of order to the local warp, setting it to the very antithesis of what sustains chaos or empowers the orks. A while back I compared it to an ephemeral game of tetris, the locked down, ordered parts of the warp where the hive fleets were forming a great wall of 'order' that other powers can't manipulate or thrive in. The Ork waaagh seems incredibly well suited to cracking that wall, like a giant green wrecking ball.

But fluff doesn't seem to support Waaagh! energy disrupting the Hive Mind at all, at least as far as I can remember. But I daresay we'd have to get into rules-as-fluff type discussion to get to the bottom of that one.

Hunchkrot wrote:

willhman wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Ok first off, the orks did not perceive the nids as a threat. This is obvious because the orks didn't retaliate. It has been shown many a time were an ork warboss is killed, and his waaaagh falls apart. The reason it falls apart is because there is no enemy that is tuff enough for them. At this time, warbosses who wanted to be leader of the Waaaagh fight for the leadership. Because of their inner fighting, this allows said weak enemies to become threats, were as before they were not. An example of this is Ghorola. Because the nids numbers were so low, the orks thought that Skarfang died because he was just weak.

If Skarfang was a tuff ork then he would have taken the nids down easily. Since the bugs killed him, then logically, he was a weak boss, it wasn't cause the nids were strong opponents, just that Skarfang was stupid and weak. I mean, how could they be a threat, only one ship got through, and landed not even a tribes worth of nids, that shouldn't be so tough.

This is the kinda stuff the ork warbosses thought as they battled each other because they thought that they were the toughtest orks out their and so on and so forth. The nids didn't really kill the orks, it was the ork warbosses pride. If you read the books, what usually stops the orks from actually winning is their belief that they can't possible lose till it is to late to see that because they thought the couldn't lose they left openings that the enemy could exploit to their victory. This happens alot in today's warfare and will continue to happen for as long as we see it.

Also Genestealer cults do not count as Guerrilla warfare. The reason being is that, they are a vanguard strain, meant to weaken the enemy, so that the main invasion of the hive fleet may commence with as little difficulty as possible. To do this, genestealers integrate themselves into society, and then when prepared, go for all out rebellion. This is to stir up chaos.

Other reasons why genestealer cults don't use Guerrilla warfare is because, when they start their revolution, they will usually have a good portion of the population on their side. Also, genestealers should have infiltrated the government by now, all the way to the top. Because of this, this effectively stops the military on the planet from becoming able to work efficiently. Indeed, it isn't unlikely to see two regiments of loyal pdf fighting each other because they both believe the other is corrupted.

Guerrilla warfare is when a smaller force fights a larger force using unorthadox tactics, and yes the genestealers do use unorthadox tactics, by the time they are usually found out, they are not the smaller force. The genestealers invade, integrate themselves part of the system, then ripe the system in half, effectively cutting off a united enemy. Indeed genestealer cults usually are the ones that are the larger force, and the IOM is the one using guerrilla tactics, because the genestealers have either fooled, infected, and put in people who will serve them. Brood brothers, serve to make the bulk of the pdf forces, so that when the time comes, they will turn, and leave the rest of the pdf without an army. Genestealers and 4th generations will infect\take over commanding positions in the pdf, making leadership a problem. This effectivly leaves a nothing but chaos, so that when the hive fleet comes there is no organized defence waiting for them.

Genestealers are not Guerrilla fighters but Saboteurs, and sleeper agents.

You do have a very valid point on genestealers being saboteurs rather than guerrilas. I'd never looked at it like that. But as for Skarfang? That's a whole lot of inferrence. I've never read anything that stated how strong Skarfang was, or anything that suggested the orks didn't know he was killed by nids, or anything that suggested the orks didn't percieve the nids as a threat, before or after Skarfang's death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, there weren't any cults in Octarius. But I do remember reading about the existence of ork cults recently. In the background story for the campaign weekend for June, maybe? I'll look it up later.

Ok, for the Ghorala attack, the orks thought that they had already won. I mean, they had taken out the the hive fleet, only one ship had dumped its spores. Skarfang didn't think they were a threat, he thought they were sport. Yes he thought they were good fighters fight,but he didn't think they could kill him, until the moment that killed him by outsmarting him...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

Except that the most recent material on this, the last Tyranid Codex, has the Genestealer Cult in the Octarius sector thriving and spreading far and wise with great ease, before finally being purged. So while the Genestealer tactics that work on humans don't work on Orks, they clearly did something else that worked extremely well. Well enough to summon a sizable tendril of Leviathan.

Does it state genestealer cults?

Let me go check this..


Page 30 of the nid codex says 'within weeks the tyranid infestation had spread to a dozen worlds' which does not mention stealer cults, nor tyranid dominance on those worlds, but likely genestealers reaching orkish worlds from the Hulk that Kryptman sent into that realm and sending out psychic signals.

Is there any other part of the codex that indicates cults of greenstealers? Or of them dominating the local orkish cultures? I'm not finding any.

So "cult" is the wrong word. Genestealer infestation? Either way, the Genestealers that Kryptman sent to Octarius managed to multiply significantly and spread across several worlds. How they did it is unclear, but they did none the less.

Yeah Willhman, I understand what you're saying. But since it's not actually written out, I don't think we should refer to it. These fluff battles are very serious business, you know!

 Manchu wrote:
But fluff doesn't seem to support Waaagh! energy disrupting the Hive Mind at all, at least as far as I can remember. But I daresay we'd have to get into rules-as-fluff type discussion to get to the bottom of that one.

The fluff at the very least supports that WAAAGH! energy doesn't get disrupted by the hive mind.

Actually in a sense, WAAAGH! energy and the hive mind are pretty similar I think.

The orks would probably win with the unlimited and not warp based power of the wagh and that they are just as numerous as the nids.