azazel the cat wrote: I think it's stupid that North America gets to wait until the 16th to go see it.
This. I can forgive Sydney Australia getting it way back in April cause come on. When's the last time Australia got anything first? But why is North America and the rest of the world waiting an extra week after the UK release?
azazel the cat wrote: I think it's stupid that North America gets to wait until the 16th to go see it.
This. I can forgive Sydney Australia getting it way back in April cause come on. When's the last time Australia got anything first? But why is North America and the rest of the world waiting an extra week after the UK release?
It's like the MPAA is trying as hard as can be to see their film pirated in NA.
Yeah. Especially since its STAR TREK. That's like making a doctor who movie and releasing it in the US on May 7 and in the UK on May 14. It's just backwards.
Iron Man 3 had an international release ahead of its US release. But for STID it's just the UK which is weird. You'd think they'd just release the stupid thing at the same time everywhere.
LordofHats wrote:Yeah. Especially since its STAR TREK. That's like making a doctor who movie and releasing it in the US on May 7 and in the UK on May 14. It's just backwards.
Iron Man 3 had an international release ahead of its US release. But for STID it's just the UK which is weird. You'd think they'd just release the stupid thing at the same time everywhere.
Lacking a global release date was one of the things that really hurt the music industry when Internet piracy was coming into play. Seems just silly to hope that the exact same outcome doesn't happen in the exact same situation.
Going to be honest, I thought this was the best Star Trek movie ever made. It had the action and humour that made the 2009 movie great, combined with original series intrigue and plot twists.
In short, I loved it. Even if it was completely filled with lens flares.
Well....Seeing the old Star TrekWrath of Khan on the big screen and how this one was reversed.......nnnnniiiicccceeeeeeee......Spock wailed the crap out of Khan....after Uhula stun him like 10 plus times
Well, I'm not going to spoil your fun with my opinion (which I've been sharing all over the internet as well as the DCM movie thread) except to say it is very different than what has been posted here. And not in a good way.
Till they decided it was a remake of Star Trek 2 the Wrath of Khan, only without the emotional impact because they'd foreshadowed how they're bring back Kirk in the first #$%^ing scene of the film.
And then they settled everything with a fist fight.
Sigh...
And I still h8, h8, h8 the idea of a reboot. You cannot have a show whose premise is 'boldly go where no one has gone before' and then go backwards.
H8ed the Enterprise show for the same reason.
Still much more logical than Star Trek 11: The Reboot. I give Star Trek 12: The Wrathier of Khanier a covet rating of 4/5 stars.
Am i the only one that was kind of disappointed. It was still really good but disappointing. I think i prefered the first one.
Spoiler:
I was honestly disappointed that spock did the final fight at the end. I figured kirk and spock would do it together even if i heard the roles were switched from the previous incarnation.
Khan was also a terrible bad guy. He gets hyped up endlessly and then he gets defeated pretty easily in comparison. We have them fighting off that large enemy ship for a good chunk of the movie and it doesn't show enough of Khan being an awesome bad guy. H*ll there wasn't even that much at stake as things never escalated like they did in the first movie. In the first movie the vulcan planet was destroyed and earth was almost destroyed.
Also what the h*ll was up with future spock doing a collect call to the alternate reality past version of his star trek buds? He's not supposed to alter the past and yet he makes a call to spock just out of the blue. "Oh hey! By any chance would you know about some guy named Khan?" 'I shouldn't say but i will anyway and hype the crap out of him even though he manages to be a smaller threat than your previous enemy.'
The thing with kirk being revived was a bit expected though somewhat cool. I think i heard it being done in the previous incarnation with spock.
Not really knowledgable on 'star trek' lore but it left me wanting and was still over 2 hours long. I just feel Khan should've been a bigger threat. Perhaps have the whole star fleet at risk of being destroyed or hurt badly through the perfect specimens that Khan's race was.
Well..the original Wrath had the crew split...Chekov with another Captain discovered Khan on a planet that they (original crew) left him on....and Chekov forgot which planet.....
Jihadin wrote: Well..the original Wrath had the crew split...Chekov with another Captain discovered Khan on a planet that they (original crew) left him on....and Chekov forgot which planet.....
I dunno i never felt like things were really at stake. I mean yeah a couple times during the movie some things were at stake but nothing ever got to the point where everything felt as if it was 'all on the line' and relied on the crew with kirk and spock to save the day. There were good parts sure but the vulcan planet and spock's mom died in the first movie and earth was almost destroyed. Things happened in the second movie but not nearly as much was at stake as it was in the first movie.
Jihadin wrote: Well..the original Wrath had the crew split...Chekov with another Captain discovered Khan on a planet that they (original crew) left him on....and Chekov forgot which planet.....
I dunno i never felt like things were really at stake.
Think about what Khan was able to do by himself in the film, then imagine 74 more like him running around, then imagine them with the most advanced warship the Federation had created. The dreadnought was cool. Gonna have to get me one of them.
I'm probably going to see this on Monday. I'm not at all into Star Trek, but I liked the last one pretty well.
That being said, I am a little concerned because of the lens flare.
Yes, I know it's become fashionable to bag on JJ Abrams over his overuse of this effect. That being said I think there is an awful lot of truth in that particular beef. Because they seem to have been rapidly escalating. In Cloverfield, it was merely present, in the last Star Trek it was distracting, and in Super 8 I found it to nearly ruin the movie. Certainly I think it screwed up some scenes, where you'd have dialogue where you can't see characters faces because of a giant corona. So - is it like that here as well?
It is about like the first, as far as lens flare is concerned. That means about 400% more than most movies, but it could have been worse.
I thought the Klingons were handled well, and like there look that is a combination of the old and new, while adding there own touch. The Klingon patrol ships were fairly cool as well.
Ouze wrote: I'm probably going to see this on Monday. I'm not at all into Star Trek, but I liked the last one pretty well.
That being said, I am a little concerned because of the lens flare.
Yes, I know it's become fashionable to bag on JJ Abrams over his overuse of this effect. That being said I think there is an awful lot of truth in that particular beef. Because they seem to have been rapidly escalating. In Cloverfield, it was merely present, in the last Star Trek it was distracting, and in Super 8 I found it to nearly ruin the movie. Certainly I think it screwed up some scenes, where you'd have dialogue where you can't see characters faces because of a giant corona. So - is it like that here as well?
Yes, even in scenes were it makes no sense. It's like the whole thing was filmed through a plate of glass.
Ahtman wrote: It is about like the first, as far as lens flare is concerned. That means about 400% more than most movies, but it could have been worse.
Ok, cool. I think in the first one it detracted rather then added, but it wasn't so bad as Super 8 - I could live with that.
And with that, I depart the thread, lest I be spoilered.
I have to admit I agree with you. The only movie so far in my life that made me feel like I was putting my tan arse on the line again was "Hurt Locker". If you think about it it kind of playing into the "5 year mission" With advance tech from the Dreadnaught due to Khan I can see that mission possible without support for long period of time. Basically the theme is breaking away from the.....canan?...well the establish timeline that we're fimiliar with....So the next old movie was Search for Spock. Since Spock alive we can't go into that timeline and the Genisis Project....Kirk son....ex wife...well you know. Best guess to nail down a good continuation. Federation/Klingon War.
Jihadin wrote: I have to admit I agree with you. The only movie so far in my life that made me feel like I was putting my tan arse on the line again was "Hurt Locker". If you think about it it kind of playing into the "5 year mission" With advance tech from the Dreadnaught due to Khan I can see that mission possible without support for long period of time. Basically the theme is breaking away from the.....canan?...well the establish timeline that we're fimiliar with....So the next old movie was Search for Spock. Since Spock alive we can't go into that timeline and the Genisis Project....Kirk son....ex wife...well you know. Best guess to nail down a good continuation. Federation/Klingon War.
Something really weird that brings in the Borg because of timeline fudging?
Aside from issues with the general direction of the reboot (a touch too popcorny for Trek, I feel), and a certain unnecessary plot device, I mostly enjoyed it and would probably rate it about the 4/5 mark.
I did leave the cinema with a lingering concern, however: (spoilered for those who have yet to see it)
Spoiler:
The new movie seemed to mine past Trek quite heavily, and the plot appeared to take significant elements from Diane Carey's ST:TOS novel Dreadnought (I could be wrong, btw) , and splice them with themes from the original timeline. It makes me wonder how far the reboot can go before they cease to be of much interest to the Star Trek community.
The relentless pandering and references to the original are just there to distract you from realizing that JJ Abrams doesn't give two gakks about what the "star trek community" thinks.
Wow, I like Movie Bob, but he seemed quite butthurt over this. I wouldn't call the movie great, but it was fun and unlike him I would recommend it for an entertaining time. I didn't see the WoK references as purely references, but essentially, as Doctor Who would say, some things are fixed and happen no matter what. It is also a stop gap film that I think (hopefully) sets up them being able to move into completely original territory with the next film, as they start the five year mission. I also disagree with his take on Cumberbatch who was stellar in his ability to be extremely menacing through sheer projection of character.
That being said, I do agree it has it's flaws, but mine were quite different then his. In the end I would probably give it a B-.
To be honest I'd rather they plundered obscure EU works than simply stuffing in old foes such as the Borg, for instance, but I don't want the films to become little more than sugary fan-service.
The last one was supposed to be a "starting point" for "original territory" as well.
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RossDas wrote: To be honest I'd rather they plundered obscure EU works than simply stuffing in old foes such as the Borg, for instance, but I don't want the films to become little more than sugary fan-service.
The fan service is the sugar, but it's only there to disguise the bitter pill of star trek being made more for frat boys than for you.
Rented Tritium wrote: The last one was supposed to be a "starting point" for "original territory" as well.
Eh, the last was more about setting up the universe and introducing the new characters. I agree they didn't need to do this story to establish them, but I would be willing to be marketing research showed that people wanted Khan, so they went that way. If they just retread after the ending of the film then I will agree that they are just spinning their tires. Of course, considering the haul it is going to take (including more than just frat boys) they may get the wrong idea, and it wouldn't be the first time that producers took away the wrong message, that people like retreads of old stories.
I also don't like the divisive attitude of 'our Star Trek' and "this is for frat boys" attitude, and one reason I am glad that they changed it, as the rigidity and exclusiveness is kind of sad. It is like like a bunch of nerds one day decided it was just for them, and it gives them the chance to be donkey-caves about something and make fun of other people, especially for not getting it; the oppressed becomes the oppressor, as it were.
Rented Tritium wrote: The last one was supposed to be a "starting point" for "original territory" as well.
Eh, the last was more about setting up the universe and introducing the new characters. I agree they didn't need to do this story to establish them, but I would be willing to be marketing research showed that people wanted Khan, so they went that way. If they just retread after the ending of the film then I will agree that they are just spinning their tires. Of course, considering the haul it is going to take (including more than just frat boys) they may get the wrong idea, and it wouldn't be the first time that producers took away the wrong message, that people like retreads of old stories.
I also don't like the divisive attitude of 'our Star Trek' and "this is for frat boys" attitude, and one reason I am glad that they changed it, as the rigidity and exclusiveness is kind of sad. It is like like a bunch of nerds one day decided it was just for them, and it gives them the chance to be donkey-caves about something and make fun of other people, especially for not getting it; the oppressed becomes the oppressor, as it were.
Cool, so now you have another group to feel superior about and call donkey caves for having opinions about things. Congrats!
Rented Tritium wrote: Cool, so now you have another group to feel superior about and call donkey caves for having opinions about things. Congrats!
I'm just describing their attitude as presented of "not for you, mine mine mine", which tends to be more problematic then "why must you think so narrowly". I'm not presenting myself as superior, I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of having that attitude, of which the farce is magnified when we realize that people are holding it for a piece of pop culture. Liking something isn't a problem, but clinging to a thing is. This is as silly as someone saying they don't like racists and responding that they are just as intolerant, and therefore the same as a racist because they don't like racists.
Rented Tritium wrote: Cool, so now you have another group to feel superior about and call donkey caves for having opinions about things. Congrats!
I'm just describing their attitude as presented of "not for you, mine mine mine", which tends to be more problematic then "why must you think so narrowly". I'm not presenting myself as superior, I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of having that attitude, of which the farce is magnified when we realize that people are holding it for a piece of pop culture. Liking something isn't a problem, but clinging to a thing is. This is as silly as someone saying they don't like racists and responding that they are just as intolerant, and therefore the same as a racist because they don't like racists.
Let's say they announced that the next mustang was going to be a subcompact or that the next corolla was going to be a full size SUV. Would you tell the people who liked those cars before that they're saying "mine mine mine"?
Star trek has been fundamentally shifted into a different type of thing entirely. Dumbing down or actioning up star trek for movies is awesome and brings it to a wider audience, but what they did here was move it away from a segment of the original audience.
It is one thing to increase your target audience, it is another thing to move the tent. Imagine a venn diagram. What you want to do is increase the size of the sections so more people like it. What they did was move one of them completely.
Just got back from seeing the movie. Enjoyed it immensely. So in addition to rebooting the series, they're rebooting the even-odd rule for Star Trek movies
Only thing that bugged be is why did they need to take Khan alive for his blood? They had 72 other superhuman-sicles to take blood from...Why did it have to be Khan's?
I got the feeling Khan was the OG. Or it could be that they didn't have time to test the popsicles and knew that Khan's worked.
Either way I quite enjoyed the film. And a buddy of mine who went with me who has never seen anything Star Trek said it was excellent which to me is what the series needed. More people enjoying it instead of it appealing to a limited populace.
Hulksmash wrote: I got the feeling Khan was the OG. Or it could be that they didn't have time to test the popsicles and knew that Khan's worked.
Either way I quite enjoyed the film. And a buddy of mine who went with me who has never seen anything Star Trek said it was excellent which to me is what the series needed. More people enjoying it instead of it appealing to a limited populace.
In my personal Fanon Khan used the advanced tech recovered from the Romulan Squid Ship (which supposedly used Borg tech) to put nanites in his blood.
Since he never showed magic ressurection blood powers before.
that's also how the Enterprise and USS Vengence could go from Kronos to Earth in 12 seconds and how the Enterprise could hover a short shuttle ride from Kronos without being spotted.
And yes, these things annoyed me enough I had to actually think about them.
I still have no idea how Khan managed to put his crew into the torpedos but not get them unfrozen. There's a lot of ways the whole hostage gimmick could have worked but that one seemed a real stretch.
Rented Tritium wrote: Let's say they announced that the next mustang was going to be a subcompact or that the next corolla was going to be a full size SUV. Would you tell the people who liked those cars before that they're saying "mine mine mine"?
As always, context is king. It isn't just as simple as a change, but instead of just complaining about Ford making changes, the fans are feel the need to belittle those who might enjoy the model; recognizing one doesn't like the direction something has taken doesn't require insulting other people in the process, which is a problem I have been seeing.
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: In my personal Fanon Khan used the advanced tech recovered from the Romulan Squid Ship (which supposedly used Borg tech) to put nanites in his blood.
Since he never showed magic ressurection blood powers before.
He also did a lot of other feats that the other Khan wasn't able to do, but guessed that it becuasew they had a better budget to show of someone who was geneitically modified to be a superhuman. Still, that doesn't really explain super blood. It certainly wasn't adequately explained, especially since a chemical that can revive necrotic tissue is quite a game changer.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: that's also how the Enterprise and USS Vengence could go from Kronos to Earth in 12 seconds and how the Enterprise could hover a short shuttle ride from Kronos without being spotted.
That is one of the problems of the film in that they don't give a good sense of the passing of time. Considering how they go on about how the torpedo's are experimental long distance weapons they are supposed to be firing from the neutral zone.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I still have no idea how Khan managed to put his crew into the torpedos but not get them unfrozen. There's a lot of ways the whole hostage gimmick could have worked but that one seemed a real stretch.
Khan didn't put his crew in the torpedoes, the admiral did. It was part of his blackmail scheme.
This as a sci fi film was ok, it's not star trek though, star trek has memorable characters and a fairly decent character developed plot, this has none of that, khan was downright boring, kirk shows no progression from the first film and Spock seems to be the same...I didn't like this film, too many plot holes and handwavium effects..so much potential wasted.
Now to wait for man of steel..here's hoping it's good.
I was decidedly underwhelmed. I think the casting is excellent, the villain was awesome,but the action sequences do nothing for me, and the plot made no sense, even compared to the first reboot movie. As an example, he blows up a research facility using a cunning plan, then just gets a cute little shuttle and tries to shoot Admiral Marcus. Nuh-uh, I don't buy it. I like my geniuses to actually use some cunningness.
Fifty wrote: I was decidedly underwhelmed. I think the casting is excellent, the villain was awesome,but the action sequences do nothing for me, and the plot made no sense, even compared to the first reboot movie. As an example, he blows up a research facility using a cunning plan, then just gets a cute little shuttle and tries to shoot Admiral Marcus. Nuh-uh, I don't buy it. I like my geniuses to actually use some cunningness.
agreed on the underwhelming aspect of the movie, I had pretty high expectations and found the plot to be way to predictable
Rented Tritium wrote: The relentless pandering and references to the original are just there to distract you from realizing that JJ Abrams doesn't give two gakks about what the "star trek community" thinks.
I loved it, thought it was the best Star Trek movie yet (felt like the damn movie was only an hour long!!!) and I found it far better than Iron Man 3: which is not a phrase I ever thought I'd type onto the Internet. I had friends who were planning on seeing a movie to iChat and I urged them to see this, telling them it was far superior to IM3. The movie was fun, had plot points that old fans expected (and were not disappointed with) and should have been quite enjoyable for new fans too. Very pleased, and I'll look forward to seeing it again!
Anybody else have a laugh when Kal Penn (Kumar from Harold & Kumar go to White Castle) showed up as Khan was crashing back on Earth? I appreciated his 1/4 second cameo-I'm sure Sulu had something to do with that.
I enjoyed it. A lot. Was it perfect? No far from it, but Pine was WAAY better, Cumberbatch was awesome and the plot was a total surprise and not spoiled in the trailers.
The ending was telegraphed a MILE off and was pretty lazy or at the very least a nod to the fans too far. The sacrifice was fine, as part of that characters arc it worked. But then it just got silly.
That said there were LOADS of nods to the original material that were both subtle and geniuine and a real pleasure for a long time Trek fan like me.
I've seen it twice at the Cinema and enjoyed it both times. Its flawed but i thought it much better than Iron Man 3.
d-usa wrote: I wanna know why Uhura has a job when they can just use a cell phone from the neutral zone to call earth...
She knows multiple languages and probably knows how the different forms of communication work on a technical level so that she can send, intercept, receive, and all sorts of other fun things relating to that field. I imagine their communication signals were being jammed, what with the whole 'sabotage the Enterprise to cause a war' thing. They broke the warp drive, why would they not also screw up communications?
d-usa wrote: I wanna know why Uhura has a job when they can just use a cell phone from the neutral zone to call earth...
She knows multiple languages and probably knows how the different forms of communication work on a technical level so that she can send, intercept, receive, and all sorts of other fun things relating to that field. I imagine their communication signals were being jammed, what with the whole 'sabotage the Enterprise to cause a war' thing. They broke the warp drive, why would they not also screw up communications?
not to mention without Uhura the bridge would have no eye candy
Com wasn't so much jammed as it was simply being ignored by Starfleet. I mean they were calling Starfleet who's boss is the guy in charge of the conspiracy. But I can't imagine an ship designed for exploration wouldn't have a communication specialist. Especially with a potentially hostile empire they could be at war with any time as a neighbor. I mean our naval officers could probably communicate by cell phone now but they have communication specialists.
I thought quite a few of the references were good. As a long time Trekkie but never really a fan of ToS I still have liked these movies. This one more than the first since we didn't have to spend 20-30 minutes introducing the characters.
And Cumberbach (or however you spell it) was awesome. His presence was excellent. He radiated threat and danger. His posture reminded me of large cats waiting to strike.
It was an OK film if you remember to switch off your higher brain functions.
As an action film it was quite enjoyable but what really spoils it were the tedious soap opera segments (especially between Ohura and Spock) which didn't exactly leave the actors covered in glory.
Benedict Cumerbatch made a suprisingly good badie
Spoiler:
although the bit with the Klingons was just stupid
Yes, it has plot holes that you could drive a truck through...but so does nearly every big movie. It was solid entertainment with a lot of great action and a visually appealing cast and scenes.
Cumberbatch was great. Kirk, Spock, Bones, Scotty and Uhura had good contributions. Sulu and Chekov added more in this film than the first one but still need a bit more to do.
The film copies elements from other sci-fi and action film tropes, but that is par for these types of films. We just want to see them take the tropes and execute them better than before. I think this film executed them well but not really better than previous films.
Alice Eve was not a bad addition but her screen presence was not as impressive as most of the other cast members.
The Klingons got wedgies...hopefully, a future film will give us a better fight. At least they looked good dying like flies.
The ship to ship battle scenes were brief and poorly thought out. The director could learn a lot from naval battle scenes or even films like the Pirates of the Caribbean or Master and Commander. Actually, the person-to-person fight scenes were also poor - usually dark with awkward angles.
The film also had several lofty morals that probably mean more to Americans than the rest of the world.
The real litmus test...would I watch it again....yes, but not for another 15 €. I will see it again on DVD.
There weren't nearly enough in this movie. I needed to see 25 more for complete satisfaction.
Otherwise, I enjoyed the movie. Saw it in 3D, but don't think it added anything other than seeing the Superman trailer in 3D. CANNOT wait for that flick. Let the summer movies begin!
JB wrote: The wife and I both enjoyed it immensely.
Yes, it has plot holes that you could drive a truck through...but so does nearly every big movie. It was solid entertainment with a lot of great action and a visually appealing cast and scenes.
Cumberbatch was great. Kirk, Spock, Bones, Scotty and Uhura had good contributions. Sulu and Chekov added more in this film than the first one but still need a bit more to do.
The film copies elements from other sci-fi and action film tropes, but that is par for these types of films. We just want to see them take the tropes and execute them better than before. I think this film executed them well but not really better than previous films.
Alice Eve was not a bad addition but her screen presence was not as impressive as most of the other cast members.
The Klingons got wedgies...hopefully, a future film will give us a better fight. At least they looked good dying like flies.
The ship to ship battle scenes were brief and poorly thought out. The director could learn a lot from naval battle scenes or even films like the Pirates of the Caribbean or Master and Commander. Actually, the person-to-person fight scenes were also poor - usually dark with awkward angles.
The film also had several lofty morals that probably mean more to Americans than the rest of the world.
The real litmus test...would I watch it again....yes, but not for another 15 €. I will see it again on DVD.
I think most of the characters got to grow, and I do like that you feel like you are watching the old actors but still feel like they are growing into new personas. I feel like I am watching the old characters, but I don't feel like I am watching a copy of the old characters (if that makes any sense).
One thing I noticed when watching it a second time is that you see a lot more of the civilians in this movie, which I did like. In the past it almost felt like it was always all Starfleet so seeing even a little bit of civilians was nice.
I like the current uniforms. Might have been to give it more of a military feel (together with the question of "we used to be explorers, are we military now?" of the movie).
The mini-Birds of Prey were nice, and I thought the Klingons looked good.
JB wrote: The wife and I both enjoyed it immensely.
Yes, it has plot holes that you could drive a truck through...but so does nearly every big movie. It was solid entertainment with a lot of great action and a visually appealing cast and scenes.
Cumberbatch was great. Kirk, Spock, Bones, Scotty and Uhura had good contributions. Sulu and Chekov added more in this film than the first one but still need a bit more to do.
The film copies elements from other sci-fi and action film tropes, but that is par for these types of films. We just want to see them take the tropes and execute them better than before. I think this film executed them well but not really better than previous films.
Alice Eve was not a bad addition but her screen presence was not as impressive as most of the other cast members.
The Klingons got wedgies...hopefully, a future film will give us a better fight. At least they looked good dying like flies.
The ship to ship battle scenes were brief and poorly thought out. The director could learn a lot from naval battle scenes or even films like the Pirates of the Caribbean or Master and Commander. Actually, the person-to-person fight scenes were also poor - usually dark with awkward angles.
The film also had several lofty morals that probably mean more to Americans than the rest of the world.
The real litmus test...would I watch it again....yes, but not for another 15 €. I will see it again on DVD.
I think most of the characters got to grow, and I do like that you feel like you are watching the old actors but still feel like they are growing into new personas. I feel like I am watching the old characters, but I don't feel like I am watching a copy of the old characters (if that makes any sense).
One thing I noticed when watching it a second time is that you see a lot more of the civilians in this movie, which I did like. In the past it almost felt like it was always all Starfleet so seeing even a little bit of civilians was nice.
I like the current uniforms. Might have been to give it more of a military feel (together with the question of "we used to be explorers, are we military now?" of the movie).
The mini-Birds of Prey were nice, and I thought the Klingons looked good.
Yeah, I liked the mini-Warbirds too. They looked sleek and aerodynamic whilst maintaining the Klingon brutality and blockiness we all love.
The guy sitting opposite me at work is ranting about how terrible the movie was.
His key complaint was Khan is supposed to from India, but he's played by a 'pom'. When I pointed out the original actor wasn't an Indian either, he shrugged and kept ranting how the original was better.
All this does is solidify my need to see it. If trekkies are hating it, I'm going to enjoy it immensely.
I didn't really understand why Kronos looked like a Decepticon-ized Cybertron? It was like an abandoned, GW-grimdark Coruscant.
Just didn't mesh at all with the images I remember from The Next Generation. The moon actually in the process of crashing into it seemed a little extreme (it was touching the surface!!), but I seem to remember something like that from previous Trek stories-- wasn't it a reference to The Undiscovered Country?
...where young Spock made a phone call to old Spock asking for spoilers on how the movie was supposed to end.
Yea, that was the end-all, be-all of Trek right there, wasn't it?
Pity he didn't consider
Spoiler:
calling a TUG to come tow the ships to a safe orbit instead. He would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives lost when Khan crashed the dreadnaught into DOWNTOWN SAN FRANCISCO!
I, on the other hand, found it just plain awful. Oh. My. GOD.
This is quite possibly the worst movie made involving successful franchise I've ever seen... and that INCLUDES Transformers, Star Wars 1-3, Superman 3, and Batman Returns.
It suffers from one of the same problems SW 1-3 had - they had to drop everything to inject a little humor of the sort the original cast could do in passing. The chemestry was off, the acting overdone (and not just by Kirk this time), the special effects...
Okay, the special effects were pretty good. But so were the effects in SW 1-3. Special effects does not a good movie make.
Next... why bother resetting the universe in your FIRST movie... if you're just going to plagurize half the ORIGINAL second movie for YOUR second movie?
And plot holes. C'mon. I've already mentioned
Spoiler:
the failure to call for a tug. But more to the point, WHERE THE HECK WAS THE EARTH'S DEFESNES? Have they totally forgotten about the destructive potential of these ships? Have they even forgotten about the Heinlan Maneuver, of just dropping rocks on a target to do incredible damage? Is Earth REALLY left that naked to attack in Abram's universe? No wonder Admiral whats-his-nose was worried about the Klingons, a couple cruisers could devastate the whole planet!
Not to mention the total lack of defenses at Star Fleet Command. A guy with the equivalent of an armed chopper shoots up a command briefing room without anyone even noticing he was coming? Seriously?
Oh, and Kirk KICKING the warp core back into alignment? Somehow I would have thought it would require a bit more precise alignment than could be done KICKING it repeatedly.
That's just the beginning... but I'm going to stop here because I need to go throw up.
No, I meant that wasn't it one of Kronos' moons in The Undiscovered Country that got blown up in a laboratory accident, sending it into a disintegrating orbit towards Kronos? I thought it was the point the forced the Klingons to ask the Federation for help, which Kirk really didn't want to give because of the situation with his son.
My memory is rusty because the movies came out whan I was a kid, but I liked how this movie had a bunch of nods to the "original" timeline, that being one of them.
Though this movie has a glaring hole that was in the original..........
Where are all the other ships??? Nothing was in orbit around Kronos OR Earth more than the station Enterprise was docked at! Nothing!
Saw it yesterday. I really liked it. Nearly peed myself with excitement when Kahn revealed his true name. Spock screaming KAAAAAAHN! may have been the greatest moment in ST history. Kind of wish they left Kirk dead so it was the true reverse of Star Trek II. They just could have brought him back in next one.
Yeah, but it was a civilized world, not a world-spanning city like Coruscant, where you can fly ships through the lower levels like canyons.
Of course, this is the same movie where Earth's gravity pulls the ships down, when they come out of warp near the moon ( ). Suspension of belief is needed.
They weren't in orbit around Kronos, they were way out in the neutral zone, which is a big section of space, thus the whole point of giving them experimental long range torpedoes. The shuttle they flew to Kronos on was a non-Federation vehicle so that the Federation would not be implicated.
Distance and travel time were certainly one of the issues they had trouble expressing in a relevant way in the film.
Where are all the other ships???
Well a bunch of the captains and first officers were killed, and I imagine others were out elsewhere. I also get the impression Star Fleet isn't the 900lb. gorilla of the quadrant just yet with a huge fleet. Also recall in the last film the Romulan ship took out a good chunk as well, and I imagine it would take time to rebuild.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AegisGrimm wrote: Of course, this is the same movie where Earth's gravity pulls the ships down, when they come out of warp near the moon
Well, the Enterprise drifted toward Earth until it was pulled into the atmosphere, as it was pretty jacked up by the other ship. One can drift in space you know.
In regards to where all the ships are IIRC at this point in history Starfleet is very small. It wouldn't surprise me if they didn't even have 30 ships.
Just got back from the theatre. Really enjoyed the movie. Love how well the actors are capturing the old actors.
A few things I didn't like though were the Klingons. I know they never can seem to settle on a particular style form movie to movie or series but I didn't really care for this new style. Plus Klingons are all about close combat and they were just getting hosed down like they were weak or something.
Khan was ok. I felt the original actor did a better job though.
Love the role reversal between spock and kirk at the end there.
One thing I didn't understand was how khan had the knowledge to build advance tech when he was frozen for 300 years. In the original movie that's how they defeated him. Sure he was super strong and smart but he was not experienced with advanced tactics in space.
Over all I really like the movie. The Klingon thing is the only thing that really annoys me. Not sure why. Maybe it was all the jewelry.
d-usa wrote: And the shuttle landed on an abandoned part of Kronos.
Perhaps I misunderstood the point of your statement; I don't think that point was being questioned, but perhaps I missed it. I'm guessing it had something to do with the moon crashing into the planet.
d-usa wrote: They did try to make it clear that they were in an abandoned section of Kronos.
The 'X Merchants'* shuttle they were in went to Kronos, the Enterprise never left the Neutral Zone.
*They stated where they got the shuttle from but I don't remember now. Like saying it was an Orion Pirate shuttle.
They said it was from 'The Mudd incident' (the comic series has been working over a lot of the material from the original series and Mudd's Daughter featured in the comic prequel Countdown to Darkness.)
It was mainly the little things that annoyed me, like the fact that the Enterprise seemed to Warp from Earth to Kronos (and back again) in a matter of minutes. This happened on the 1st film as well. Even at top warp speed that should take days.
Oh and the fact that it is apparently possible to Transport directly from Earth to Kronos in the first place with a portable transporter. If that is possible you may as well abolish Star Fleet altogether.
Overall I still enjoyed it allot more than the 2009 film.
The blonde science officer chick was immediately spotted as Kirk eye candy, she obligingly strips giving a wonderful, if brazenly long and awkward frontal shot in her underwear, then she strides off with the torpedo on the panetoid wearing a suit that made her ass look 1 meter wide.
They went through the motions jumping from action sequence to action sequence but there was no real soul to the characters or movie that made you want them to win.
Cumberbatch was the exception, once the revelations started flowing I started hoping he would kick everyone's ass.
wowsmash wrote: One thing I didn't understand was how khan had the knowledge to build advance tech when he was frozen for 300 years. In the original movie that's how they defeated him. Sure he was super strong and smart but he was not experienced with advanced tactics in space.
Remember Khan is a super genius and a super soldier. I'm not sure if they mention how long he's been awake but it's not unheard of for people maybe not as advanced technologically to see a new application of existing technology. And he's geared toward murder and mayhem so it makes sense that once he's started to understand the concepts (and he should be able to) that he'd be able to design new systems and weapons. And it's not like he wouldn't grasp the tactics required in a space environment, he's smart enough.
Didn't watch the original series where they first encountered Khan though, only the movie, so I'm not sure how that portion relates to the reboot universe.
IIRC WWIII was instigated by Kahn in the 1990s. It nearly destroyed humanity and became the catalyst for humans to become pacifist utopians. So Kahn hails from a lost Dark Age of Warfare Technology if you will, which is why the evil Admiral guy wanted to bring him back in the first place.
wowsmash wrote: One thing I didn't understand was how khan had the knowledge to build advance tech when he was frozen for 300 years. In the original movie that's how they defeated him. Sure he was super strong and smart but he was not experienced with advanced tactics in space.
Remember Khan is a super genius and a super soldier. I'm not sure if they mention how long he's been awake but it's not unheard of for people maybe not as advanced technologically to see a new application of existing technology. And he's geared toward murder and mayhem so it makes sense that once he's started to understand the concepts (and he should be able to) that he'd be able to design new systems and weapons.
I saw it, and am still not sure what I think... the beginning was Awesome.
I'm going to see it again tomorrow so I'll update then
Spoilered thoughts:
Spoiler:
I think the fact that it mirrored the old movies in many moments threw me off, and that I'll enjoy it more the second time now that I'm expecting that kind of "past shadowing".
Is it just me, or does the Enterprise appear impossibly huge? Maybe the TV shows had problems truly capturing the scale of these ships due to budget constraints, but the Enterprise seems twice the size of the Enterprise-D of the Next Generation.
Cumberbatch did well, I would like to see him back for a Wrath of Khan type film in the future. I still think the Reliant and Enterprise fight in Wrath of Khan is the best ship to ship combat scene in ST history.
That said, I enjoyed the movie immensely. Sure, it's not old Star Trek but old Star Trek died a painful death with Enterprise and Voyager and the last few Next Gen films.
Sgt_Scruffy wrote: Is it just me, or does the Enterprise appear impossibly huge? Maybe the TV shows had problems truly capturing the scale of these ships due to budget constraints, but the Enterprise seems twice the size of the Enterprise-D of the Next Generation.
Cumberbatch did well, I would like to see him back for a Wrath of Khan type film in the future. I still think the Reliant and Enterprise fight in Wrath of Khan is the best ship to ship combat scene in ST history.
That said, I enjoyed the movie immensely. Sure, it's not old Star Trek but old Star Trek died a painful death with Enterprise and Voyager and the last few Next Gen films.
I liked Voyager! What did it do to deserve such hatred?
Also, I'll be honest, Spock's "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" was simply glorious.
Breotan- As I mentioned, I'm seeing it again and I'll update after if I feel the same way as that review. I was starting to feel that way, but now I'm not sure... I think they may have pulled it off. I'm going in with an open mind for the second time and will see what happens
Lol that was somewhat of an amusing review. One thing that just stuck out to me after reading it. Khan beat down all those Klingons and the enterprise away team all at the same time but somehow Spock and uhura were to much for him? Does that seem odd to anyone else?
An angry Spock is pretty powerful, more so than a human. Uhura got the drop on him, and blasted him quite a few times with a phaser, and it still was barely enough. Oh, and he had just crashed a spaceship from orbit, so he may have been a little weakened by, you know, impacting with a planet.
From the review:
And we know this because Spock says “I had vowed never to tell you anything of your future because I want to live your own life and blah blah blah” just before adding “but Khan is an donkey-cave and here’s exactly how we defeated him.”
Old Spock never told them how they beat him, or anything beyond Khan being extremely dangerous and that defeating him came at great cost.
wowsmash wrote: Lol that was somewhat of an amusing review. One thing that just stuck out to me after reading it. Khan beat down all those Klingons and the enterprise away team all at the same time but somehow Spock and uhura were to much for him? Does that seem odd to anyone else?
When he was up against the Klingons he caught them by surprise and had his two super guns.
And Spock was super angry at that point AND Ahura did stun him about 10 times before he dropped.
I think the fact that Harrison transports from Earth to Kronos isn't that ridiculous. He used Scotty's algorithm from the first movie but improved it because he is a superhuman genius.
I think the point about being able to use the blood from any of the other 72 candidates is also a bit of a non-starter considering that McCoy had already created a successful serum from Khan's blood. Why would they risk it not working when they had Khan right there?
The one thing I didn't get is how the ended up back at Earth after being ambushed during Warp travel. I also don't understand where the rest of Star Fleet was when the Enterprise was being shot out of the sky by the Dreadnought. They are the only "plot holes" I have with the film.
I don't think Into Darkness is "lazy", I think Abrams genuinely wanted to address problems that fans had with the original movie in deviating from the official timeline. This timeline is a dark reflection of the Star Trek that we know, and I hope it continues for many years to come. Khan could definitely find himself in another movie, perhaps not in the next but certainly a fourth if there is to be one.
Hoping for a fully fledged Klingon War in the next film.
Medium of Death wrote: The one thing I didn't get is how the ended up back at Earth after being ambushed during Warp travel. I also don't understand where the rest of Star Fleet was when the Enterprise was being shot out of the sky by the Dreadnought. They are the only "plot holes" I have with the film.
When the dreadnought fired on the Enterprise and knocked it out of warp it was closing in on Earth. After that the ship was drifting towards Earth until it got caught in the Earth's gravity. Still, it is part of the problem the film had with relating time and distance.
Ahtman wrote: An angry Spock is pretty powerful, more so than a human. Uhura got the drop on him, and blasted him quite a few times with a phaser, and it still was barely enough. Oh, and he had just crashed a spaceship from orbit, so he may have been a little weakened by, you know, impacting with a planet.
From the review:
And we know this because Spock says “I had vowed never to tell you anything of your future because I want to live your own life and blah blah blah” just before adding “but Khan is an donkey-cave and here’s exactly how we defeated him.”
Old Spock never told them how they beat him, or anything beyond Khan being extremely dangerous and that defeating him came at great cost.
Not true.
Spoiler:
After Old Spock said that, New Spock said "exactly how?" and then they cut away. I'm assuming that while off scene, Old Spock told New Spock to use against him what he holds most dear or most desperately wants. I forget the line that New Spock used later.
I loved it. The ONLY problem I had with the movie is that the way they defeat Kahn seemed a little too... easy. Considering he's supposed to be a villain that is above and beyond, it just felt like it should have taken a little more effort than detonating the torpedoes after beaming them aboard.
I saw it last night. I liked it OK, but I didn't think it was great. I think the first one was a little better.
I do have some nits to pick:
1.) The scene with Alice Eve in her underwear was flat out the most gratuitous thing I've ever seen in a film not helmed by Joe Eszterhas. I think Alice Eve is very pretty, and her body is incredible, but it was an inappropriate scene that did nothing for the movie and in fact kind of took points away from it. I have no problem with erotiscm or nudity in general at all - I love boobs - but it has to have at least some kind of context, such as those aliens Kirk was bedding - that was fine.
2.) I asked earlier in the thread about the lens flare, and indeed, as I was told, it was not that bad. However there was one scene in particular where it was totally breaking immersion, again with Alice Eve - when she was talking to robocop and pleading for him to not destroy the Enterprise.... the blue lens flare was so extreme you literally could not see her face. What the F, guys. Someone needs to get JJ Abrams into a seat and clockwork orange his ass to averse him to lensflare.
3.) When Kirk "died". Look, that's... that's not going to work. No one at all thinks at any point you're going to kill off a main character, let alone James Tiberious Freaking Kirk. It's so impossible that the whole scene had absolutely no tensions. It's like killing off Batman 15 minutes into a movie, everyone knows they're not going to kill the goddamn Batman.
The action scenes were pretty solid. I thought Simon Pegg did a great job, as did Benedict Cumberbatch (although his menacing was generally at a 7, and we could have used him at a 9). Chris Pine did as well as Chris Pine is capable of. Zach Quinto was good as always.
creeping-deth87 wrote: ...the way they defeat Kahn seemed a little too... easy. Considering he's supposed to be a villain that is above and beyond, it just felt like it should have taken a little more effort than detonating the torpedoes after beaming them aboard.
Too easy? Originally he was just a better than normal athletic human. Kirk might not be able to beat him in a straight up fight but a phaser should still take out Khan's genetically engineered arse. In this version he's practically a god who can't be beat by the likes of mortal men. Hell, Xena couldn't stop this guy. I was half expecting him to literally jump out of STID and lant in the upcoming Man of Steel, make Zod his b**ch, and pimp-slap the snot out of Superman just because he can.
Characters - great
Story cool
music great
effects - cool
the only negative thing for me was the comedy Chekov and Scotty and his "ewok" friend - but I rationalise this is something that only he can see as he is drunk
There was a funny moment there where Kirk tells Chekov to go ahead and put on a red shirt and he swallows with grief as if he's been sentenced to death.
I actually really really really wish they'd have left kirk dead. How awesome would that be? They'd actually be doing something cool and exciting. Instead we get comic book death. Like that hasn't been done a thousand times to the dismay of everyone. Sure I love the guy who currently plays Spock, and find the guy playing Kirk kind of dull, but I think a Star Trek with the whole crew but no Kirk would leave the door open for some really interesting emotional and character development.
Killing James Tiberous Kirk be like killing Luke Skywalker. Kirk became the property of Death but Death got screwed over......think Death is pissed now...at Kirk.....Khan...writers....JJ Abrams.....film crew.....MCCOY
creeping-deth87 wrote: ...the way they defeat Kahn seemed a little too... easy. Considering he's supposed to be a villain that is above and beyond, it just felt like it should have taken a little more effort than detonating the torpedoes after beaming them aboard.
Too easy? Originally he was just a better than normal athletic human. Kirk might not be able to beat him in a straight up fight but a phaser should still take out Khan's genetically engineered arse. In this version he's practically a god who can't be beat by the likes of mortal men. Hell, Xena couldn't stop this guy. I was half expecting him to literally jump out of STID and lant in the upcoming Man of Steel, make Zod his b**ch, and pimp-slap the snot out of Superman just because he can.
I also was wondering if they'd switched reels and I was getting a preview of Man of Steel as well. Khan is a bad MF... but he's still HUMAN. JJ went WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY over the top with Khan.
The only reason Khan was 'human' level in TOS is due to the lack of good special effects. He did stop a door from closing/locking on the Enterprise and brute force it open is memory serves in TOS.
Khan was like Captain America "ultimate human" superheroic in TOS. Way beyond everyone else. Kirk beats him with a pipe on (in D&D terms) being high level, having lots of hit points, and rolling some nat 20s. Spock could take him on because he's superhuman too. They turned Khan up to 11 in this one, but I liked him a lot.
I really like the way the characters are handled in this series. All the core characters are done a great deal of justice, and the Spock/Kirk contrast remains the center, the contrast between our hearts and our minds and how they conflict even when driven by the same ideals and principles.
I also liked this one better than Iron Man: 3. It has some holes and issues, but less egregious ones, for my money. The time & distance things were a bit odd, but I kind of accepted the "we can get anyone on the phone from anywhere" thing as a conceit for the setting. My main thought was that some events were big enough that they could have used a bit more time & space to be expanded on.
Mannahnin wrote: Khan was like Captain America "ultimate human" superheroic in TOS. Way beyond everyone else. Kirk beats him with a pipe on (in D&D terms) being high level, having lots of hit points, and rolling some nat 20s. Spock could take him on because he's superhuman too. They turned Khan up to 11 in this one, but I liked him a lot.
I really like the way the characters are handled in this serious. All the core characters are done a great deal of justice, and the Spock/Kirk contrast remains the center, the contrast between our hearts and our minds and how they conflict even when driven by the same ideals and principles.
I also liked this one better than Iron Man: 3. It has some holes and issues, but less egregious ones, for my money.
I remember in the original series, Spock was putting dents in the Enterprise bulkheads with his fists, so I was hoping for a better showing between him and Khan. That said, I liked the way they reversed Spock and Kirk's positions with the reactor scene. I think the franchise got far better with the second movie.
Well, just saw it this past weekend. I thought it was awesome. I am not a trekkie, however, so I am not comparing it to ToS or any of the others.
One thing I must say: J.J. Abrams makes Star Trek damn emotional! I hardly ever get teary while watching films, but there are moments in both the first movie and Into Darkness that had the man-tears welling in the corners of my eyes a bit. The bit between Spock and Kirk on opposite sides of the reactor door was surprisingly moving, though I could have done without the "Khaaaann!" after Kirk "dies."
I think the fact that Spock is usually so cool and calculated makes the moments when he loses control i.e. chasing down and beating the gak out of Khan, watching Kirk die, all the more visceral.
rubiksnoob wrote: Well, just saw it this past weekend. I thought it was awesome. I am not a trekkie, however, so I am not comparing it to ToS or any of the others.
One thing I must say: J.J. Abrams makes Star Trek damn emotional! I hardly ever get teary while watching films, but there are moments in both the first movie and Into Darkness that had the man-tears welling in the corners of my eyes a bit. The bit between Spock and Kirk on opposite sides of the reactor door was surprisingly moving, though I could have done without the "Khaaaann!" after Kirk "dies."
I think the fact that Spock is usually so cool and calculated makes the moments when he loses control i.e. chasing down and beating the gak out of Khan, watching Kirk die, all the more visceral.
In space no one can save you from the feels.
I actually liked Spock doing that along with the whole way the Spock and Kirk parts flipped from the earlier episodes with Khan. As good as Sherlock was playing Khan, and he did a bang up job, Ricardo Montalban still owns that role.
Khan literally a trained "killer". Spock not a trained "killer". Only thing that separated Spock from Khan was sheer emotions. The few times I saw Khan face during the fight I thought he was thinking "DAMN Vulcan STAY DOWN"
While Spock isn't SPecial Forces or anything, he does have military hand-to-hand training I would imagine. Mix some knowledge and experience fighting with being an angry Vulcan and I can buy that he would be able to stand up to Khan, for a bit at least.
Martial arts are an integral part of Vulcan culture. ALL Vulcans train, to some degree or another, in Maritial arts. The Neck Pinch is a prime example - this isn't some random Vulcan trick, it's a carefully trained and thought-out martial arts technique for disabling an opponent without hurting him. One trains with it EXTENSIVELY in the process of learning it.
And never forget, Vulcan's affinty for logic and peace is a VERY recent state of affairs. As recently as a couple thousand years ago (which given Vulcan's extened lifespan is probabaly only equivalent to 4-500 years of human history) they were warlike on a planetary scale, the likes of which only Ghenghis Khan could appreciate. Their martial arts contain a plethora of lethal techniqes as well, not to mention weapon techniqes. (Refer back to 'Amok Time' for a bit of how that works).
In short, a Vulcan should be an equal match for a human super-soldier. JJ's Khan Noonian Singh wasn't a super-soldier, he was a flat-out superhuman brick (low-end, perhaps, but still well beyond human limits).
And pale beyond belief for a character that was supposed to hail from India...
Saw this yesterday in 3D. Really loved it, and its a great next step in the trek reboot. The kirk/spoc relationship is moving on very nicely and was great to see scotty have a bigger role. Bring on the next one.
I'm finding that while I enjoyed it in the theater, as time goes by and I unpack it more, it does not hold up well. Still, enjoyed it at the time, and would watch it on Netflix if I were bored.
Breotan, after seeing this movie a second time, I disagree with the review you linked to. I watched Wrath of Khan on Netflix before writing this to be sure. The new movie is Way better. Seriously. The old scene between Kirk and Spock was definitely amazing, but the new one was done well, and the movie overall was good.
Like Mann says below, I do think some events could have used more time to develop, but the characters are handled so well in the Star Trek reboot. Overall, I love it
Mannahnin wrote: Khan was like Captain America "ultimate human" superheroic in TOS. Way beyond everyone else. Kirk beats him with a pipe on (in D&D terms) being high level, having lots of hit points, and rolling some nat 20s. Spock could take him on because he's superhuman too. They turned Khan up to 11 in this one, but I liked him a lot.
I really like the way the characters are handled in this series. All the core characters are done a great deal of justice, and the Spock/Kirk contrast remains the center, the contrast between our hearts and our minds and how they conflict even when driven by the same ideals and principles.
I also liked this one better than Iron Man: 3. It has some holes and issues, but less egregious ones, for my money. The time & distance things were a bit odd, but I kind of accepted the "we can get anyone on the phone from anywhere" thing as a conceit for the setting. My main thought was that some events were big enough that they could have used a bit more time & space to be expanded on.
My biggest complaint with the plot is really only in two parts:
Spoiler:
Why did they park the Enterprise underwater? It makes a cool 3d scene sure but they could have been in Orbit and actually descended into the smoke from the volcano and saved Spoke without being seen!
And: How is it that no one notices a firefight between the Enterprise and Dreadnought on Earth? It's the home base of Star Fleet and the Federation and no one notices anything??? It's just kind of bizarre how the events in the series sometimes played out.
And: How is it that no one notices a firefight between the Enterprise and Dreadnought on Earth? It's the home base of Star Fleet and the Federation and no one notices anything??? It's just kind of bizarre how the events in the series sometimes played out.
Spoiler:
I think this was already covered, but a year ago many Starfleet vessels were wiped out by the uber-Romulan/Borg vessel. At the beginning of this movie the Captains/First Officers of what were left were then killed/injured by Khan. This is early in Starfleets existence still, they aren't the uber Navy of the quadrant, and have been dealt some pretty harsh blows to their ship numbers.
The Vengeance was being led by the head of the Fleet, and most likely wasn't in the mood to send a message to Earth saying he was about to destroy one of his own ships. It isn't that Earth doesn't know, it is that, as far as they know, there isn't a reason to be concerned about what is going on, that "everything is fine, we're all fine...how are you?".
Wait if the loss of seven ships has so hammered the Federation, why was Klingon Empire not obliterated by its enemies? After all, they lost 47 ships.
Now THAT would be a shift, if the Klingon Empire gets overthrown or effectively taken down by rebellions from its slave states. Alternatively a nice war of aggression by the Federation on them would be impressive.
Pretty sure the Klingon-Federation War is up next.
As Ahtman said the Federation is not a superpower at this point. In fact they just lost Vulcan, founding world and probably second most important planet in the UFP.
Would be cool. Commodore garth kicking Klingon butt.
Having said that I may just wait until this one comes out on rental. The Khan thing has really put me off, and I find my self looking forward to the Superman flick, WWZ, and The End, much more.
Frazzled wrote: Wait if the loss of seven ships has so hammered the Federation
For all we know those 47 ships were of the type that Khan was blowing out of the air single-handedly. We can't rebuild 7 F-22's in a year, let alone replace 7 (I would be curious where the number originated from though) capitol ships and all hands on board in a year. If the US lost all it's carriers in one day, excluding the Enterprise, it would be a pretty serious blow to our force projection, not to mention the amount of manpower lost. It ain't no little thing.
Frazzled wrote: Would be cool. Commodore garth kicking Klingon butt.
Having said that I may just wait until this one comes out on rental. The Khan thing has really put me off, and I find my self looking forward to the Superman flick, WWZ, and The End, much more.
You haven't even seen it yet? You just enjoy a good feed of spoilers I guess eh?
Frazzled wrote: Would be cool. Commodore garth kicking Klingon butt.
Having said that I may just wait until this one comes out on rental. The Khan thing has really put me off, and I find my self looking forward to the Superman flick, WWZ, and The End, much more.
Yuo haven't even seen it yet? You just enjoy a good feed of spoilers I guess eh?
Spoilers don't bother me for this. i wasn't expecting a deep plot.
I don't see how you can be peeved about a plot point in a film you haven't seen and so have no context for. Anyway, you should go check it out it's good.
d-usa wrote: He was the same way about the last Batman movie, it's a Frazzled thing.
I didn't like the last Batman movie, and regret renting it. It spoiled the essential greatness of the second movie. Except now I break into Bain conversation mode and make the wieners whine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Am I the only one looking forward to seeing The End? And the new The End movie too?
I actually find I like DKR more as time goes on. I suppose it is because the initial viewing, even if one is trying to be objective, is compared to DK.
I'm guessing when the enterprise gets rebuilt and re-christened at the end that it has all the new tech like improved warp capability's etc. It would seem odd that after getting pretty much destroyed by USS Vengeance and all the advanced tech they have from khan it would be silly to build it Identical to what it was. I was hoping for a new Enterprise B at the end but I guess not.
What did everyone think of the Klingons? It's the first time we've really seen them in the new series. I thought the makeup job was is a little more advanced now than it used to be and they were pretty intimidating.
Mr Nobody wrote: What did everyone think of the Klingons? It's the first time we've really seen them in the new series. I thought the makeup job was is a little more advanced now than it used to be and they were pretty intimidating.
OK saw it.
Liked:
-the Klingons. They seem predatory and not that "honor bound samurai" shtick going on. Much more like STOS. Aggressive and alien looking. I like their giant batleths.
-the dreadnought. If the admiral was ready for war I'm thinking there's more than one of these. They look like they could kick serious ass. I wonder, how do they compare vs. a galaxy class.
Didn't like:
-immature Kirk. Again?
-The space battles. I liked the dreadnought catching up and blasting it out, but the overall battle was merely ok.
-Superman er Khan. How did he become super super man? There are limits to humans. I liked the actor but really?
-The plot was meh.
-overall meh. Major letdown from the first "reimaging." On thepositive I saw the Superman trailer. Looks good.
-The admiral was so much better. I'd rather him just talk then anyone else.
One thing that peeves me about Abrams' version is that Pike was supposed to be Spock's friend. Kirk hardly knew the man. Sad to see that tossed away for "The Captain Kirk Show".
Seeing as Kirk's dad died, it isn't shocking that they'd bring in a classic character to bring Kirk into Star Fleet instead. And Pike was still Spock's friend :/ Sorta.
Breotan wrote: One thing that peeves me about Abrams' version is that Pike was supposed to be Spock's friend. Kirk hardly knew the man. Sad to see that tossed away for "The Captain Kirk Show".
Spock and Pike's relationship is mostly professional, Kirk and Pike's is Mentor/Mentee with some father/son elemnts tossed in. Spock and Pike are friendly, but their relationship really isn't like Kirk and Spocks. In the pilot of ST I don't get the impression they are good friends, and later in The Menagerie Spock is more motivated by duty and logic then a strong personal bond.
Frazzled wrote: Spock shouts a lot in the old pilot, and is quite emotional.
Does he? I don't recall that, but it has been some time since I watched it.
He does, but it is important that pilot Spock is in no way an accurate representation of TOS Spock. The Spock in the pilot was pretty "normal" and they had a woman who was cold and non-emotional. They changed that aspect of being cold and without emotion to Spock when the series was picked up.
Frazzled wrote: Spock shouts a lot in the old pilot, and is quite emotional.
Does he? I don't recall that, but it has been some time since I watched it.
Yes. I'm talking "The Cage" Pilot I here now. They were trying for an emotional alien (wo that turned out different) and a female first officer (Later Nurse Chapel).
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Mr Nobody wrote: What did everyone think of the Klingons? It's the first time we've really seen them in the new series. I thought the makeup job was is a little more advanced now than it used to be and they were pretty intimidating.
Yes. They seemed much more predatory. Would not want to be one of their prisoners. Did not expect to see Klingons repelling out of ships.
After all, the Admiral was right. War is inevitable.
Till they decided it was a remake of Star Trek 2 the Wrath of Khan, only without the emotional impact because they'd foreshadowed how they're bring back Kirk in the first #$%^ing scene of the film.
And then they settled everything with a fist fight.
Sigh...
And I still h8, h8, h8 the idea of a reboot. You cannot have a show whose premise is 'boldly go where no one has gone before' and then go backwards.
H8ed the Enterprise show for the same reason.
Still much more logical than Star Trek 11: The Reboot. I give Star Trek 12: The Wrathier of Khanier a covet rating of 4/5 stars.
Concur on all points except hating Enterprise, which I really enjoyed. I realize this makes me a pariah amongst a lot of Trek fans but Voyager kicked donkey too so there
I did however strongly appreciate how they mirrored Wrath of Khan in the final arc of the movie, it was actually really enjoyable. 4/5.
edit: The Klingons were great! I hope we see more of them soon.
Still much more logical than Star Trek 11: The Reboot.
Looking at the amount of money the reboot has made and the number of non-Star Trek people they were able to get into the theaters it seems pretty logical, actually.
There is a lot to like about the new series, but I'm hoping that with someone other than JJ at the helm we will get something in between the groaning, ponderous morality plays of the older series with the SUPERFAST, CUT, CUT, LEEEEEEEENNNNNSSSSFFFFFLLLLAAAARRRRREEEE of the new films. They have a good cast overall, and nice designs, they just need someone with a bit more gravitas to elevate it. The potential is there, but it needs a steadier hand, and I say that as someone who overall enjoyed the new movies.
The issue with Abrams and why I don't want him any where near a new Star Wars film is that the man is technically competent, and extremely so, but he has no vision. So his films will never be anything more then "good" at the very best.
I think JJ Abrams is going to do very well on Star Wars, considering that the Visual Look for the new Star Trek has been taken from the original trilogy, Empire specifically.
Bringing Star Trek to a wider audience by combining the characters with top quality visuals and action pace is quite visionary imho. At any rate he is listed as being involved in the next film.
I'd like to see the Borg in the new series. Nero's ship IIRC had Borg technology, perhaps this was detected by them prior to it's passage through the "Black Hole". Temporal Rift would have been better. Maybe entering the larger Black Hole tore the Narada apart and displaced it's parts throughout time and space.
If not the Borg, it seems unusual for the Romulans to be absent. Perhaps the Klingon War is bypassed in favour of the Romulan war. Klingons and the Federation being forced to ally.
Medium of Death wrote: I think JJ Abrams is going to do very well on Star Wars, considering that the Visual Look for the new Star Trek has been taken from the original trilogy, Empire specifically.
Bringing Star Trek to a wider audience by combining the characters with top quality visuals and action pace is quite visionary imho. At any rate he is listed as being involved in the next film.
I'd like to see the Borg in the new series. Nero's ship IIRC had Borg technology, perhaps this was detected by them prior to it's passage through the "Black Hole". Temporal Rift would have been better. Maybe entering the larger Black Hole tore the Narada apart and displaced it's parts throughout time and space.
If not the Borg, it seems unusual for the Romulans to be absent. Perhaps the Klingon War is bypassed in favour of the Romulan war. Klingons and the Federation being forced to ally.
We had Romulans in the first film.
I'd like to see something completely different, new.
Q could be awesome, and honestly if you're bringing back Q you need to bring back his actor. I love the idea of John de Lancie dropping references to the various other timelines he's also mucking around in for kicks. As for bad guys, in this period of Federation History there's plenty of bad guys to deal with that aren't the traditional big three, time line wise the Borg are still deep in the Delta Quadrant, the Romulans are pre-warp, so the Klingon Empire is the big threat of the day, followed by other antagonistic factions such as the Gorn, Tholians, etc.
Lots of options, but I do think it's gonna be game on with the Klingon Empire for round three, which I heartily welcome. To Sto-Vo-Kor!
It was a great movie, I would love to see Q come back,
it was a bit odd when kirk pulled a spock... and the last bit of the movie was pretty predictable as soon as I heard someone had to go into the warp core.
even though I knew what was going to happen, I was still quite happy to hear "KHANNNNNNNNN"
I don't think there will be a big Klingon war in the 3rd one. I wonder if there will be a third one though. Financial results so far have been signficiantly below expectations.
Frazzled wrote: I wonder if there will be a third one though. Financial results so far have been signficiantly below expectations.
That just means they will scale the budget back, not that they will stop making them; $328.5 million (as of June 2013) is still a decent chunk of change, and that isn't counting merchandising and home video sales/rentals.
No Q and no Borg. These are TNG things. They should just have some old fashioned Star Trekking in the next one with the Federation-Klingon lurking in the background or as a subplot. Then do something that focuses on the war or end it in the fourth one.
Don't forget that at this early point in the timeline, many of the more aggressive races of the Federation were only marginally - if at all - members. Andorians, Tellarites, and Orions are all valid villians at this point. It would be interesting to finally see the Andorian 'Blue Fleet' on the big screen. Do that and I might even watch the next movie
On Netflix, naturally. There's no way I'm paying money to JJ anymore.
Vulcan wrote: Don't forget that at this early point in the timeline, many of the more aggressive races of the Federation were only marginally - if at all - members. Andorians, Tellarites, and Orions are all valid villians at this point. It would be interesting to finally see the Andorian 'Blue Fleet' on the big screen. Do that and I might even watch the next movie
On Netflix, naturally. There's no way I'm paying money to JJ anymore.
Whats the andorian blue fleet?
Of course, if we still have aggressive federation races (not counting the humans) why did they need Khan again?
I would like the next film to involve something new and original. I would have liked this one to do that as well, but I'll give them their bridge movie as it set up the five year mission and made Kirk a bit less hotheaded.
In the first film the only real growth for the character was to find something to believe in, but his recklessness and flaunting the rules still won out the day, so there is no reason why that should have changed between films.
Ahtman wrote: I would like the next film to involve something new and original.
I wanted this from the last two.
It was mentioned before that I wish they had not tried to connect it at all to the older series and just rebooted, but they don't respond to my emails. The question at this point is whether we can make peace with what we have gotten, and while I would have preferred a total reboot, I can live with what we have gotten. I think they missed an opportunity, but c'est la vie.
Liked it a lot. Really thought Cumberbatch was a great Khan. Very intense portrayal.
Only a few things that I didn't like....really do I still need spoiler warnings at this point?
1) Scottys Mushroom alien side kick. I was really hoping it wouldn't be back. This is almost as bad as the ghetto bots from Transformers 2.
2) Klingons, Really? What was the point. I would have rather wait until ST 3 to see them unleashed, not as Trek Universe version of Dark Eldar.
3) Spock and Uhura...it's so cliche, and it doesn't really work for me. Would rather have seen a vulcan lady introduced as Spocks love interest.
Besides those small gripes, thought the movie was great. Looking forward to Star Trek III Wrath of the Dark Eldar.
Finally saw it. It was one of the worst movies of the franchise, if not the worst. Maybe Insurrection was worse, but it's close. Now, I thought first "new" Trek was OK. It was not a classic, didn't really have much of a Trek feel and with some gigantic black...er...plot holes, but it was respectable. However, with the new one, it was blatantly obvious they had no ideas whatsoever left. Everything in the movie, and I do mean EVERYTHING, was ripped off from previous movies or series. In some cases, from the very last movie!
There were huge plot holes:
Spoiler:
-super-warp-transporter which can instantly transport you through entire quadrant? Really? And it fits your pocket?
-Enterprise travels to Kronos in less than a day (and then travels back to Earth in 5 minutes).
-apparently, Neutral Zone goes right by Klingon Homeworld. It also appears to be really tiny, since Enterprise can stay on right side of it and still be within weapons range of Kronos. Seems like pretty useless buffer zone to me.
-I don't get why everyone seems so worried about a war with Klingons, as they seem to have no fleet, almost no defences on their homeworld and their military seems incompetent. Apparently even their patrol ships don't bother to report enemy contacts to upper echelons.
-Starfleet coordinate system seems ingeniuous, as just with four numbers you can pinpoint exact tiny region of space on a region many dozens of light years across.
-in aforementioned coordinates there is a super-secret military base, which is not guarded in any way: Scotty simply flies there with regular shuttle and lands without anyone noticing and gets on board the most secret vessel of the Starfleer. I take it back, Starfleet seems to have equal incompetence level with Klingons so there is plenty to fear for.
-Enterprise gets thrown out of the warp 'prematurely' - only to end up within Lunar orbit of the Earth. Man, how convenient. One would think that had they remained in the Warp even 5 seconds longer, they would have overshot Earth by several lightyears.
I don't even bother to list the ways previous Treks were recycled, only the most obvious:
Spoiler:
Climatic battle is between Enterprise and much larger, much more advanced ship. Enterprise has no chance unless its crew performs some miraculous boarding actions. Coincidentally, movie before this one had exact similar climatic battle. So did the movie before that one. So did movie before THAT one.
Geez, out of ideas much, guys?
Seems pointless after that to list things like way overlong, boring action scenes or way overlong, boring dialogue scenes to put 'tension' between the characters. Suffice to say that both the director and writers are incompetent in the way that they almost make Star Wars prequels look coherent.
I think the problem for some people is this fim was designed to apeal to lots of people with: cool effects, good acting from the main cast, fun story, great charcter interaction and humour - i thought it was superb - except for Scotty and the Ewok and Chekov as comedy - as opposed to Sulu who was great -"If you test me"
Insurrection on the other hand was a trekkie film and absolutely dire IMO - as bad as Nemesis - and these were the films that the new films are trying not to emulate.
Plot problems
Spoiler:
-super-warp-transporter which can instantly transport you through entire quadrant? Really? And it fits your pocket?
Yep - its star trek tecnobable - its normal and a plot device
-Enterprise travels to Kronos in less than a day (and then travels back to Earth in 5 minutes).
yep - they put thier foot down on their way back - cruising speen on their way there
-apparently, Neutral Zone goes right by Klingon Homeworld. It also appears to be really tiny, since Enterprise can stay on right side of it and still be within weapons range of Kronos. Seems like pretty useless buffer zone to me.
Is the Klingon Homeworld thier centre of power - maybe not - looks like Praxis has exploded and so mayeb they moved much of their population etc.......
-I don't get why everyone seems so worried about a war with Klingons, as they seem to have no fleet, almost no defences on their homeworld and their military seems incompetent. Apparently even their patrol ships don't bother to report enemy contacts to upper echelons.
Fair point - althouhg see previous and maybe the patrol ships were crewed by arrogant iridots posted to a backwater section of the Klingon planet due to being well arrogant idiots.
-Starfleet coordinate system seems ingeniuous, as just with four numbers you can pinpoint exact tiny region of space on a region many dozens of light years across.
In the context of a fun action film - who cares
-in aforementioned coordinates there is a super-secret military base, which is not guarded in any way: Scotty simply flies there with regular shuttle and lands without anyone noticing and gets on board the most secret vessel of the Starfleer. I take it back, Starfleet seems to have equal incompetence level with Klingons so there is plenty to fear for.
Fair enough - although why didn't they just fly into Mordor on the Eagles and drop the ring in that way..............also if you look like you should be there - usually you can get away with things -
-Enterprise gets thrown out of the warp 'prematurely' - only to end up within Lunar orbit of the Earth. Man, how convenient. One would think that had they remained in the Warp even 5 seconds longer, they would have overshot Earth by several lightyears
Insurrection on the other hand was a trekkie film and absolutely dire IMO - as bad as Nemesis - and these were the films that the new films are trying not to emulate.
Insurrection was indeed a Trek film - it felt like sloppily written 2-part episode of TNG. Nemesis, however, was pretty much from same mould as two "new" Treks, in fact the plot of Into Darkness was almost exact duplicate! This is big problem of Hollywood, they have absolutely no courage anymore to try any new ideas. Everything is recycled, rebooted, whatever. I bet that within 3 years we will have another Spider-Man reboot, another Batman reboot, probably also Twilight-reboot.
-super-warp-transporter which can instantly transport you through entire quadrant? Really? And it fits your pocket?
Yep - its star trek tecnobable - its normal and a plot device I'm pretty familiar with Trek technobabble, and they don't usully feature devices so powerful which are then casually ignored as nothing special. I mean, such a transporting device would completely transform entire quadrant, and it was treated as not a big deal, in fact it was implied it was invented by Scotty! And talking about teleportation, wasn't it hella-annoying that they constantly came up with lame excuses not to use transporters, it was used so often I pretty much began to laugh about it in the end. It was drinking game material.
-Enterprise travels to Kronos in less than a day (and then travels back to Earth in 5 minutes).
yep - they put thier foot down on their way back - cruising speen on their way there
One might think that Klingon homeworld is not quite so accessible as it's within minimal flight distance from Federation homeworld, but guess not....
-apparently, Neutral Zone goes right by Klingon Homeworld. It also appears to be really tiny, since Enterprise can stay on right side of it and still be within weapons range of Kronos. Seems like pretty useless buffer zone to me.
Is the Klingon Homeworld thier centre of power - maybe not - looks like Praxis has exploded and so mayeb they moved much of their population etc.......
Neutral zone is big. You have to travel through it, it contains lots of worlds - otherwise there would be no point in such a "neutral zone". You have to travel through it and it takes substantial amount of time.
This was gigantic incompetence from behalf of the writers, producers and director and showed they are totally incompetent. It was such an enormous blunder it alone was enough to ruin any believability of the plot. When Cameron directed Titanic, he didn't have the ship meet the iceberg 20 miles off Southampton.
-Starfleet coordinate system seems ingeniuous, as just with four numbers you can pinpoint exact tiny region of space on a region many dozens of light years across.
In the context of a fun action film - who cares
It stops being fun when it is clear that writers, directors or producers don't bother to get even simplest details right. If they don't care, I don't care.
-in aforementioned coordinates there is a super-secret military base, which is not guarded in any way: Scotty simply flies there with regular shuttle and lands without anyone noticing and gets on board the most secret vessel of the Starfleer. I take it back, Starfleet seems to have equal incompetence level with Klingons so there is plenty to fear for.
Fair enough - although why didn't they just fly into Mordor on the Eagles and drop the ring in that way.......
Sauron had air defences. Eagles were amongst his foremost enemies, he was prepared for them...
Whilst I'm at it, how about the items around which the plot circled around - the torpedoes. Thing is, those torpedoes were pretty compact. Freezer pods must have taken about 80% of their internal volume: yet they apparently were fully functional weapons - warhead, propulsion, targeting systems, whole shebang. Do Federation torpedoes have 80% of their volume empty space? How do you think say, AMRAAM would work if you took three-fourths of the internal stuff out from it and replace it with frozen Guinea pigs? Not too well, I should imagine.
.
). Suspension of belief is needed.
