Boosykes wrote: Chaos whinny? Lol you must be joking only whinny players I have seen are loyalist space marines.
Only when they convert their armies to My Little Space Marine Pony.
pfp checks out
As to the accursed weapons, why not? If we step back and look at this problem from another angle, we can see a trend.
Many factions have units that have 1 major weapon across the entire unit (plus the standard grenades, pistol, close combat weapon, etc). We can see Primaris Marines heading in this direction with Aggressors, Hellblasters, Intercessors, Infiltrators, Incursors, Inceptors, and all the other 'ors' that they have. Aside from their tanks (which have far too many weapons), the infantry squads are flattened.
GW traditionally has given many units, everything from Eldar Guardians to Imperial Guardsmen to Chaos Marines a selection of one or two special weapons in the squad. The strange obsession GW has is to give these sorts of units a large variety of special weapons to choose from. There's the standard Flamer, Plasma, Melta, but then there's also grenade launchers, sniper rifles, varieties of heavy weapons, and other things depending on the squad you're looking at.
The intention is to make a unit that you can build in lots of different ways, giving them a little bit of oomf without making them wholly dedicated to one particular thing. That said, in some editions things like bolters or lasguns, y'know, the standard weaponry that a squad would have, tends to be mostly worthless, and the squad is truly taken for the one or two special weapons that it can have. In many lists, people will forego as many troop units as they can in favor of specialist units with as many special weapons as they can.
There are several issues going forward:
a. the expectation is that kits will have consistent numbers of special weapons to kit out a squad of models. Traditionally, that means 2 special weapons for 10 models. However, often there's only 1 of each special/heavy weapon in a kit, which means you need to buy 2 boxes to kit out the models, or the rules need to reflect the limitations. GW, in their infinite wisdom, is unable to remain consistent between these two solutions.
b. the determination of what units get what sorts of special weapons is inconsistent, and more often than not, the rules, meta, or edition of the game will determine that there's either a stand-above weapon option (traditionally the plasma gun or something similar) and one that's usually worthless (traditionally the flamer). To many list-makers and model-builders, this can make it feel like there's wasted space on a sprue where it would have been more worthwhile to have an extra of any other special weapon.
c. in most cases, having these special weapons is good only for a tiny bit of extra punch, but the unit remains made up of mostly bolters/lasguns/the base weapon of the unit, meaning the typical troop unit isn't able to really specialize in anything other than having priority for holding objectives or screening more valuable things in your army. The ultimate irony of a world full of bolters and lasguns dominating the field is made ever so slightly lesser by the fact that those weapons have so little impact in the actual game.
This is all highlighted by the fact that 40k is supposed to be their best-selling game. It's the top-earner, with everything else paling by comparison, so why do factions in 40k remain inconsistent, with many aging models and more limited loadouts? How is it that niche games like Horus Heresy get weapon upgrade and customization packs, but we can't seem to get that for 40k units? They've got the CAD files, we've seen them update units for Kill Team. A lot of the issues that have been talked about ad nauseum in this forum would be wholly resolved by selling an extra pack of upgrade bits. One could be made for Chosen/Havocs/Legionaries that would have extra melee weapons, special weapons, and combi-weapons. Another could be made for the Chaos Terminators to help that kit and those rules be fleshed out, and another for the Cultists to make them ranged. Unnecessary if you want the kits as-is, but there if you want to add those extra options.
Yes it'd inflate the 3rd party bits market, which we already see with 30k, so what's your point?
Yes it would cost more for people that want to chase the meta or that expected those bits to be in the base box, but we're here now.
Yes, I know they won't do it or at least wont try it for another 5 years or something, but let a man dream.
Any other questions?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!
Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.
You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.
Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.
bullyboy wrote: It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!
Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.
You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.
Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.
You asked me to buzz off to let you moan with your fellow whiners in the other thread which is now locked, so I'll just point out once again: dakka has a prevalent rep as an overly negative hostile gak hole because of these sort of comments.
The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.
I'm sorry that people suggesting or trying to help find ways to use your existing models makes you so angry.
Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.
bullyboy wrote: It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!
Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.
You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.
Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.
You asked me to buzz off to let you moan with your fellow whiners in the other thread which is now locked, so I'll just point out once again: dakka has a prevalent rep as an overly negative hostile gak hole because of these sort of comments.
The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.
I'm sorry that people suggesting or trying to help find ways to use your existing models makes you so angry.
Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.
You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.
Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?
You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.
Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?
Yeah this suggestion from bullyboy of 'just proxy buddy!' falls apart the moment you actually have to implement it in game.
bullyboy wrote:It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!
Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.
You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.
Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.
You asked me to buzz off to let you moan with your fellow whiners in the other thread which is now locked, so I'll just point out once again: dakka has a prevalent rep as an overly negative hostile gak hole because of these sort of comments.
The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.
I'm sorry that people suggesting or trying to help find ways to use your existing models makes you so angry.
Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.
You seem to be attempting to close this thread with ad hominem attacks and pilled on hyperbole. Criticism isn't 'sheer hatred.'
Several have expressed dislike about this codex and have given valid reasons for it.
Telling someone to proxy a model isn't a result everyone will accept because it's not an adequate solution. Players go to tournaments, they play strictly 'what you see is what you get,' they enjoy playing the models with the equipment they're modeled with. There are plenty of reasons why proxy isn't a solution for everyone.
Some posters on here can't accept that others don't like what they like and attempt to coerce them into a similar opinion. I honestly don't care if the next person likes or dislikes this codex, or feels it's powerful or weak. However, there are legitimate complaints about the changes, and some are trying to claim they're not valid simply because it doesn't affect their army (or soon-to-be army), so it shouldn't affect anyone.
There will be no other wargear in the entire book. Each data sheet will have exactly one special rule, and one Legion Trait.
Finally.
Balance.
Thats pretty much the feeling when you play Thousand Sons. Options of Inferno bolter or Inferno flamer, basicly the same stats. If you want cc wapons, the terminators have the no-option sword.
Dudeface wrote: Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.
When are you going to learn that you can't dig up?
As a CSM player of 21 years... yeah, we've lost some stuff, it's not ideal but stuff happens. Make the best of it and move on. Give feedback to GW in the survey and outlets they provide.
You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.
Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?
Are all your models identical looking? Gee that must suck.
Mine all have some variance, pretty easy to point out which one has combi flamers. And if you could actually read English, you’d see that I mentioned combi melta was on leader. So yeah, you’ll know exactly which one it is. But keep up the hyperbole.
Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
bullyboy wrote: Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.
bullyboy wrote: Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.
Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.
You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.
Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?
Are all your models identical looking? Gee that must suck.
Mine all have some variance, pretty easy to point out which one has combi flamers. And if you could actually read English, you’d see that I mentioned combi melta was on leader. So yeah, you’ll know exactly which one it is. But keep up the hyperbole.
Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
So you don't expect your opponents to be able to tell the difference between ubiquitous combi-weapons, but you do expect them to remember what the slight variation is between your terminators so that they can tell which one has the combi-weapon they are not modeled with.
bullyboy wrote: Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.
Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.
Good! Hopefully that'll mean you'll finally leave this thread for people that will offer actual constructive criticism and conversation rather than half-baked "solutions" that people have repeatedly told you they don't work, with appropriate reasoning.
Following up with attacks and dismissive comments after people don't take your (inadequate) advice, escalating tensions and hostility, is all on you.
If you want to "finish" a thread, here's what you have to acknowledge:
1. The Chaos Codex is not what many fans wanted. 2. Many options that people had developed in their armies were stripped out. 3. There is no "easy" solution to any of this, and it's unlikely GW will improve the situation of their own volition. 4. People butting into the thread calling the people here whiny or hostile doesn't help the situation or community at all. 5. If people want to complain, let them. Trying to take some higher ground in a realm of personal opinions does you no good.
Sometimes people just need to vent. If I say something like "I don't want to eat dog crap" and you come in with "have you tried a different flavor?" doesn't help at all.
$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD
Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either
the Start Collecting was, what 95? Rough for anyone that missed out on that for the master of possession (likely to be 38) and legionaries (50-60ish) that were in the same box :/
$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD
Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either
the Start Collecting was, what 95? Rough for anyone that missed out on that for the master of possession (likely to be 38) and legionaries (50-60ish) that were in the same box :/
Well, ain't that how it always goes with Star Collecting sets? Most of them had you get a good chunk of them for free, compared to buying separately.
$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD
Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either
the Start Collecting was, what 95? Rough for anyone that missed out on that for the master of possession (likely to be 38) and legionaries (50-60ish) that were in the same box :/
Well, ain't that how it always goes with Star Collecting sets? Most of them had you get a good chunk of them for free, compared to buying separately.
Yarp. I personally would have preferred to pay 60 dollars for each of the kits (60 for 2 oblits and 60 for a venomcrawler) or something like that if they'd gotten better kits and separate boxes. A Venomcrawler able to take some different weapons on the torso, the oblits having some posing/weapon/head options... A man can dream.
IMO, GW is missing out on money by giving these kits their own boxes.
The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.
True. Dakka dakka has been largely out competed by other communities as the go to for leakers. The last leak I saw on here the person posting the leak got his leak shat all over and everyone was incredibly negative lol. Just why bother sharing here if the community is like this you know? I know I wouldnt, there's no motive, leakers leak because they want to enjoy the discussion and get credit, but its just miserable here.
This is all highlighted by the fact that 40k is supposed to be their best-selling game. It's the top-earner, with everything else paling by comparison, so why do factions in 40k remain inconsistent, with many aging models
Mmm. Honestly, I think there is a tidal wave of range updates coming. GW really do seem to do things years in advance, like the Angron CAD model apparently existed at least 2 years ago, and might have been being worked on as much 4 years ago, and in the last 5 years they have multiplied the rate of their model creation and releases to many times that of before, massively scaling with the increased success of the company.
But covid has delayed so much that there's now just this absolutely fething massive bunched up tidal wave of models over years that they have. Like an absolute gakload of models they we are only just seeing the beginnings off.
I'm fully expecting the Imperial Guard update to include many of the guard regiments that people aren't expecting right now like armaggedon, catachan, elysian, valhallan, tallarn etc etc, and a Tyranid range refresh and expansion to coincide with SM2 and a Tau range refresh with many of the auxiliaries like the Kroot being greatly expanded.
bullyboy wrote: It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!
Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.
You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.
Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.
The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.
bullyboy wrote: Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.
Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.
Good! Hopefully that'll mean you'll finally leave this thread for people that will offer actual constructive criticism and conversation rather than half-baked "solutions" that people have repeatedly told you they don't work, with appropriate reasoning.
Following up with attacks and dismissive comments after people don't take your (inadequate) advice, escalating tensions and hostility, is all on you.
If you want to "finish" a thread, here's what you have to acknowledge:
1. The Chaos Codex is not what many fans wanted.
2. Many options that people had developed in their armies were stripped out.
3. There is no "easy" solution to any of this, and it's unlikely GW will improve the situation of their own volition.
4. People butting into the thread calling the people here whiny or hostile doesn't help the situation or community at all.
5. If people want to complain, let them. Trying to take some higher ground in a realm of personal opinions does you no good.
Sometimes people just need to vent. If I say something like "I don't want to eat dog crap" and you come in with "have you tried a different flavor?" doesn't help at all.
While there are plenty of fun and cool things the new book can do, the Chaosistency of it all is maddening. Plus, I had also converted squads of Chosen: one with thunder hammers, one with plasma guns, and one with lightning claws. I can mish-mash them and call the plasma guns combi-plasmas, but there is certainly a level of frustration there. And not being able to mark Daemonkin units seems more than a little weird, especially Possessed.
That said, there's a difference between venting and the last 100+ pages of this thread. How many times does one person need to piss and moan about the same exact thing? At some point you just become a broken record, and no one wants to hear it anymore.
bullyboy wrote: Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.
It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.
Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.
Good! Hopefully that'll mean you'll finally leave this thread for people that will offer actual constructive criticism and conversation rather than half-baked "solutions" that people have repeatedly told you they don't work, with appropriate reasoning.
Following up with attacks and dismissive comments after people don't take your (inadequate) advice, escalating tensions and hostility, is all on you.
If you want to "finish" a thread, here's what you have to acknowledge:
1. The Chaos Codex is not what many fans wanted.
2. Many options that people had developed in their armies were stripped out.
3. There is no "easy" solution to any of this, and it's unlikely GW will improve the situation of their own volition.
4. People butting into the thread calling the people here whiny or hostile doesn't help the situation or community at all.
5. If people want to complain, let them. Trying to take some higher ground in a realm of personal opinions does you no good.
Sometimes people just need to vent. If I say something like "I don't want to eat dog crap" and you come in with "have you tried a different flavor?" doesn't help at all.
While there are plenty of fun and cool things the new book can do, the Chaosistency of it all is maddening. Plus, I had also converted squads of Chosen: one with thunder hammers, one with plasma guns, and one with lightning claws. I can mish-mash them and call the plasma guns combi-plasmas, but there is certainly a level of frustration there. And not being able to mark Daemonkin units seems more than a little weird, especially Possessed.
That said, there's a difference between venting and the last 100+ pages of this thread. How many times does one person need to piss and moan about the same exact thing? At some point you just become a broken record, and no one wants to hear it anymore.
Usually, sensible adults simply leave. Yeah, they stop replying to the broken records. Then, when the broken records don't have an audience, they stop or go somewhere else.
It really is that simple. The 'complaining about people complaining' simply becomes the new broken record.
GaroRobe wrote: Pre orders up in NZ. Looks like cultist are all on a single sprue…….
Jesus, it is indeed all just one single sprue.
I also count 10 improvised weapons and 10 autopistols, as well as a single Chainsword and a single Boltpistol
They really went all out on the options huh.
I think even the bloody much-maligned new Boyz had more.
Oof. I was really hoping for at least some head swaps or something. It would have been better if they'd just reprinted the Dark Vengenace cultists for another 5 years... gdi.
Hope you like monopose models, it's indeed just CCW + pistols :/
Not good news for anyone (like me) that has loads of the old cultists. Their autoguns will most likely be an illegal option soon enough.
I suppose they can use their rifles as clubs like in the old days, though To be fair, I cant recall any time a cultist accomplished anything by shooting their autoguns.
That Cultist kit is just sad. The sculpts are nice and I'll be happy to buy it once, but I wouldn't want to use it to make a whole unit of Cultists, let alone several.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: While there are plenty of fun and cool things the new book can do, the Chaosistency of it all is maddening. Plus, I had also converted squads of Chosen: one with thunder hammers, one with plasma guns, and one with lightning claws. I can mish-mash them and call the plasma guns combi-plasmas, but there is certainly a level of frustration there. And not being able to mark Daemonkin units seems more than a little weird, especially Possessed.
That said, there's a difference between venting and the last 100+ pages of this thread. How many times does one person need to piss and moan about the same exact thing? At some point you just become a broken record, and no one wants to hear it anymore.
Usually, sensible adults simply leave. Yeah, they stop replying to the broken records. Then, when the broken records don't have an audience, they stop or go somewhere else.
It really is that simple. The 'complaining about people complaining' simply becomes the new broken record.
To be fair, Chaos Marines got teased over half a year ago, had playtest rules leaks in between, official preview ramp up over months and even a month after the codex was released we're still not done with delays. That's plenty of time for reminders of the same issues to crop up again and again. Other armies that aren't well received don't spend so much time in the spotlight. It invites repetition because it simply won't end.
Geifer wrote: That Cultist kit is just sad. The sculpts are nice and I'll be happy to buy it once, but I wouldn't want to use it to make a whole unit of Cultists, let alone several.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: While there are plenty of fun and cool things the new book can do, the Chaosistency of it all is maddening. Plus, I had also converted squads of Chosen: one with thunder hammers, one with plasma guns, and one with lightning claws. I can mish-mash them and call the plasma guns combi-plasmas, but there is certainly a level of frustration there. And not being able to mark Daemonkin units seems more than a little weird, especially Possessed.
That said, there's a difference between venting and the last 100+ pages of this thread. How many times does one person need to piss and moan about the same exact thing? At some point you just become a broken record, and no one wants to hear it anymore.
Usually, sensible adults simply leave. Yeah, they stop replying to the broken records. Then, when the broken records don't have an audience, they stop or go somewhere else.
It really is that simple. The 'complaining about people complaining' simply becomes the new broken record.
To be fair, Chaos Marines got teased over half a year ago, had playtest rules leaks in between, official preview ramp up over months and even a month after the codex was released we're still not done with delays. That's plenty of time for reminders of the same issues to crop up again and again. Other armies that aren't well received don't spend so much time in the spotlight. It invites repetition because it simply won't end.
As of today, it has been 709 days since GW teased they're going to give Chaos Space Marines two wounds.
Geifer wrote: That Cultist kit is just sad. The sculpts are nice and I'll be happy to buy it once, but I wouldn't want to use it to make a whole unit of Cultists, let alone several.
And that's a ridiculously small amount of plastic in the box. They should've just re-boxed this new sprue together with the BSF Abyssal cultists for a single set with at least some variety.
I will say this. I love how easy it is to shave off the "Mindwitch" head bits and just have a creepy hood cultist with his arms out in devotion. Great looking dark acolyte or diorama mini
EviscerationPlague wrote: Can't wait for Dudeface or bullyboy to pop in to say you're just being a negative Nancy about the cultists LOL
Nah, this is a valid concern. I have plenty of the old cultists and very happy that I don’t need more.
I am surprised on oblit price, I honestly thought GW were going to go nuts on that one. Doesn’t affect me as I converted my oblits from aggressors for my IW (but I’m assuming many here wouldn’t like them as they don’t look exactly like GW oblits!!!)
EviscerationPlague wrote: Can't wait for Dudeface or bullyboy to pop in to say you're just being a negative Nancy about the cultists LOL
Nah, this is a valid concern. I have plenty of the old cultists and very happy that I don’t need more.
I am surprised on oblit price, I honestly thought GW were going to go nuts on that one. Doesn’t affect me as I converted my oblits from aggressors for my IW (but I’m assuming many here wouldn’t like them as they don’t look exactly like GW oblits!!!)
I mean, originally if you spent $30 more for the start collecting, you'd get 10 csm and a master of possession. Oh, also two greater possessed (which are just basic possessed now, but still).
EviscerationPlague wrote: Can't wait for Dudeface or bullyboy to pop in to say you're just being a negative Nancy about the cultists LOL
Nah, this is a valid concern. I have plenty of the old cultists and very happy that I don’t need more.
I am surprised on oblit price, I honestly thought GW were going to go nuts on that one. Doesn’t affect me as I converted my oblits from aggressors for my IW (but I’m assuming many here wouldn’t like them as they don’t look exactly like GW oblits!!!)
I mean, originally if you spent $30 more for the start collecting, you'd get 10 csm and a master of possession. Oh, also two greater possessed (which are just basic possessed now, but still).
At least you got price drop when losing models from set. Others aren't as lucky
GW this was not a difficult thing to do. Add a few extra heads. They could have made it a box of 20 instead of 10. There's a dozen ways they could have added value to this box but they did the absolute minimum...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Calling it now, the Possessed will have zero customization options, be 5 models across 1 sprue that they'll charge 60 bucks for.
Anything else would be an f-ing miracle at this point.
These are an improvement over the Dark Vengeance cultists how? We already had monopose plastic cultists. We needed new ones with a different aesthetic why exactly? At least the old ones had autoguns and the option for flamer/heavy stubber. They went through all the effort of a new kit just make it monopose again, but with less options? This is just unacceptable. Fail.
Photos in the codex links did show that the Possessed do seem to have at least a few bits to create diversity between kits. How many extra bits are in there, that's the question.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: These are an improvement over the Dark Vengeance cultists how? We already had monopose plastic cultists. We needed new ones with a different aesthetic why exactly? At least the old ones had autoguns and the option for flamer/heavy stubber. They went through all the effort of a new kit just make it monopose again, but with less options? This is just unacceptable. Fail.
On top of that, you got these cultists with zero options, 10 models, 45 USD
Same thing for Death Guard: Poxwalkers, 10 models, no options, 35 USD
Meanwhile Genestealer Cultists, incredible range of options, heads, weapons, 50 USD
It's like GW doesn't even want you to buy these cultists.
Marshal Loss wrote: Interestingly/depressingly, the first (40k) EC model GW have painted up in many many years:
drbored wrote: Calling it now, the Possessed will have zero customization options, be 5 models across 1 sprue that they'll charge 60 bucks for.
Anything else would be an f-ing miracle at this point.
WB Possessed in the codex have a bunch of different heads & at least one arm option
Maybe EC Codex will have Chosen as a unit they can take as well, whenever they get their codex? Notably, the EC shoulder transfer is missing from the normal Chaos Marine transfers, but it looks like that EC icon was hand painted.
Marshal Loss wrote: Interestingly/depressingly, the first (40k) EC model GW have painted up in many many years:
drbored wrote: Calling it now, the Possessed will have zero customization options, be 5 models across 1 sprue that they'll charge 60 bucks for.
Anything else would be an f-ing miracle at this point.
WB Possessed in the codex have a bunch of different heads & at least one arm option
Maybe EC Codex will have Chosen as a unit they can take as well, whenever they get their codex? Notably, the EC shoulder transfer is missing from the normal Chaos Marine transfers, but it looks like that EC icon was hand painted.
Legionnaire units come with transfers for Thousand Sons - stop expecting things to make sense.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: These are an improvement over the Dark Vengeance cultists how? We already had monopose plastic cultists. We needed new ones with a different aesthetic why exactly? At least the old ones had autoguns and the option for flamer/heavy stubber. They went through all the effort of a new kit just make it monopose again, but with less options? This is just unacceptable. Fail.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: These are an improvement over the Dark Vengeance cultists how? We already had monopose plastic cultists. We needed new ones with a different aesthetic why exactly? At least the old ones had autoguns and the option for flamer/heavy stubber. They went through all the effort of a new kit just make it monopose again, but with less options? This is just unacceptable. Fail.
On top of that, you got these cultists with zero options, 10 models, 45 USD
Same thing for Death Guard: Poxwalkers, 10 models, no options, 35 USD
Meanwhile Genestealer Cultists, incredible range of options, heads, weapons, 50 USD
It's like GW doesn't even want you to buy these cultists.
Or, more probably, GW thinks they can get away with this without a noticeable dip in the sales, due to past experience
tneva82 wrote: Unsurprisingly you aren't target. Somebody with 160 cultists isn't likely to buy more.
They might if the new kit offered them stuff they didn't have before. Access to more or new weapons for example. And that has the bonus of giving people without 160 cultists cool things, too! So there is no downside from a player/collector perspective!
So you can have a kit which offers people choices and will sell to people who have no cultists and those who have lots, or you can have a kit with no options, not even a different weapon loadout, which will sell to a much smaller cross reference of people. I don't know about you, but one of those choices seems objectively better to me.
Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. The fact that these are monopose and in the same style as the BSF cultists suggests that these might have started off as alternate sculpts for BSF but weren't included or released for whatever reason and got repurposed as cultists for CSM. If that's the case, then we may have come very close to not having a cultist kit at all. And we all know what happens to units with no models. So maybe we should consider ourselves lucky to have cultists at all, especially given everything else we lost.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. The fact that these are monopose and in the same style as the BSF cultists suggests that these might have started off as alternate sculpts for BSF but weren't included or released for whatever reason and got repurposed as cultists for CSM. If that's the case, then we may have come very close to not having a cultist kit at all. And we all know what happens to units with no models. So maybe we should consider ourselves lucky to have cultists at all, especially given everything else we lost.
Yeah, nah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's more like Blackstone Fortress was a testing ground for designs for full 40k, as seen with the new Traitor Guardsmen (which aren't in the SODDING BOOK, thus meaning we could get no cultists even if we had the models) - or, for that matter, Cursed City and the Vampire update for AoS
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. The fact that these are monopose and in the same style as the BSF cultists suggests that these might have started off as alternate sculpts for BSF but weren't included or released for whatever reason and got repurposed as cultists for CSM. If that's the case, then we may have come very close to not having a cultist kit at all. And we all know what happens to units with no models. So maybe we should consider ourselves lucky to have cultists at all, especially given everything else we lost.
'We should be grateful we weren't punished more' is a bad take for consumers.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. The fact that these are monopose and in the same style as the BSF cultists suggests that these might have started off as alternate sculpts for BSF but weren't included or released for whatever reason and got repurposed as cultists for CSM. If that's the case, then we may have come very close to not having a cultist kit at all. And we all know what happens to units with no models. So maybe we should consider ourselves lucky to have cultists at all, especially given everything else we lost.
'We should be grateful we weren't punished more' is a bad take for consumers.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. The fact that these are monopose and in the same style as the BSF cultists suggests that these might have started off as alternate sculpts for BSF but weren't included or released for whatever reason and got repurposed as cultists for CSM. If that's the case, then we may have come very close to not having a cultist kit at all. And we all know what happens to units with no models. So maybe we should consider ourselves lucky to have cultists at all, especially given everything else we lost.
The main issue with this is that GW seems to have dug a hole that they don't know how to fill.
It started with 6th edition Dark Vengeance. They added Cultists as a troop option to the Chaos Space Marines Codex. The options were pretty straightforward and limited even back then, because even then it was based on the cultists that came in the Dark Vengeance box. That starter box lasted not only through 6th edition, but through 7th edition as well. When they finally took it down, the only replacement that the cultists got was a single miniscule box of 5 push-fit models, 3 melee, 2 autoguns, but the datasheet for the Cultists remained the same.
Enter 8th edition. By then, that piddly box of 5 models is still on sale for a little while. Eventually it disappears when Blackstone Fortress comes out. Now, BSF starts off with Traitor Guard, and then eventually they get a box of 8 cultist models, mostly with ranged weapons, but let's break that down. 1 of the 8 is a firebrand with an over-the-top flamer. Another is the cultist leader with chainsword and pistol. One is a grenade launcher, one is a heavy stubber. That leaves you with 4 autoguns.
Think about that for a moment. In order to satisfy the needs of a squad of 10 cultists with ranged weapons, you have to buy 2 boxes of 8 and leave many of the models aside. 8 become autoguns, 1 becomes the leader, and 1 is a special weapon. Don't want to pay the points for a special weapon? Gotta get another box to get a 9th autogun, and it'll be the same push-fit model that you already have 2 of. The other side of this is that we STILL do NOT have a proper melee loadout for the Cultists, and a LOT of the rest of the 40k model range doesn't supply enough pistols and melee weapons to convert it out of something else.
Genestealer Cult models don't have enough melee weapons and pistols. You could use Necromunda models, but then you're using something that's actually a slightly different scale (Necromunda models like Delaque and Escher look HUGE compared to 40k things). The next closest thing would maybe be Tzaangors, but you're buying a kit AND an upgrade pack to get the chainsword+pistol option.
What Chaos Marines needed to satisfy their Cultist troop option was pretty simple. A box of 10 cultists with pistols and melee weapons, and boy did GW give us that and NOTHING more, while having the gall to charge more for it.
Even setting price aside, you're getting a box of 10 models that gives you the bare minimum in terms of what GW's technology and design team can produce. There is one singular arm/head swap in the entire kit, with many heads molded to specific torsos and others you MIGHT be able to swap around a little bit. There's no ranged weapons, no special weapons, no way to make anything other than the bare-bones loadout.
What Chaos Marines NEEDED was a box of cultists that you could kit out either with pistol+ccw or with autoguns, along with a single flamer, heavy stubber, and grenade launcher, and maybe a couple of mask or head swaps. THEN you'd have options. You could go and add on the Cultists of the Abyss models for extra variety, be able to swap heads around to help models from being samey. It would have been 2 sprues in a box that they could have easily charged 55 dollars for, and because it had the options to kit out the squad how the codex determined, I doubt we'd be as livid. We'd probably still find complaint, but it'd be harder to do.
Now, you know what I see? I see another option that's about to be stripped. Come 10th edition Chaos Marines, I foresee the Cultist datasheet being stripped down to ONLY pistol and ccw, with no options for anything else, whenever they finally decide to retire the Cultist of the Abyss box that they've tried to hobble along.
The legacy of the Chaos Cultists is something that could have been resolved at ANY point along this path, and GW kept refusing to do that extra little bit of work. If the original Cultist of the Abyss models had been a box of 11, with 3 more autoguns and the Firebrand as a separate character... if they had reprinted the Dark Vengeance cultists and just kept them going ad infinitum like they seem content to do with things like Chaos Bikers... if the cultist kit we just got had a few more options in the box (even if they weren't autoguns, just having a few more heads/arm swaps would have been amazing)... But in every way, GW seem content to give Chaos Marines a hodgepodge of attention, missing out on details, stripping us of options, and in the case of the cultists, doing the bare minimum.
I would have rather not had Chaos Cultists in the codex at all.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. The fact that these are monopose and in the same style as the BSF cultists suggests that these might have started off as alternate sculpts for BSF but weren't included or released for whatever reason and got repurposed as cultists for CSM. If that's the case, then we may have come very close to not having a cultist kit at all. And we all know what happens to units with no models. So maybe we should consider ourselves lucky to have cultists at all, especially given everything else we lost.
All the BSF miniatures were 'easy-to-build', requiring no glue to assemble, and also had slottabase tabs. These new cultists lack those features, and so must have always been intended as pure 40k miniatures.
And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
RazakelXIII wrote: And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
lmao yeah.
People complaining that we have 180+ pages of... people complaining, don't seem to understand that this saga has been LONG. Everything from picking apart early playtest rumors to the leaks finally being confirmed to the reveals of the models to the release of the Codex (which was back in June) and now to the release of the Cultists (end of July) and now we're seeing that the Possessed, Master of Possession, and Accursed Cultists might not even be available until early-mid August... this has been a VERY LONG RIDE and I'm ready to move on to the next faction.
RazakelXIII wrote: And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
lmao yeah.
People complaining that we have 180+ pages of... people complaining, don't seem to understand that this saga has been LONG. Everything from picking apart early playtest rumors to the leaks finally being confirmed to the reveals of the models to the release of the Codex (which was back in June) and now to the release of the Cultists (end of July) and now we're seeing that the Possessed, Master of Possession, and Accursed Cultists might not even be available until early-mid August... this has been a VERY LONG RIDE and I'm ready to move on to the next faction.
It's not over yet, we still have the entire arc of the Daemon Prince datasheet with an expiration date and the new Daemon Prince model.
RazakelXIII wrote: And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
lmao yeah.
People complaining that we have 180+ pages of... people complaining, don't seem to understand that this saga has been LONG. Everything from picking apart early playtest rumors to the leaks finally being confirmed to the reveals of the models to the release of the Codex (which was back in June) and now to the release of the Cultists (end of July) and now we're seeing that the Possessed, Master of Possession, and Accursed Cultists might not even be available until early-mid August... this has been a VERY LONG RIDE and I'm ready to move on to the next faction.
It's not over yet, we still have the entire arc of the Daemon Prince datasheet with an expiration date and the new Daemon Prince model.
lol yep, and we still don't know if the traitor guard are going to get their datasheet in the Chaos Marine codex or something else.
Part of the endless self-fufilling prophecy where space marines get the highest quality and highest quantity of releases then lo and behold they sell better.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Or if the leaks for a new bike kit will come out this edition or be reserved as something to be released in the next edition.
Seeing as the two major kits that are still stuck in 3rd ed are Bikers and Huron Blackheart, I'm predicting a Renegade Chapters supplement that'll have expanded rules for all that other stuff (the Purge, Flawless Host, etc) as well as those updated models.
We may just not see it for a while. GW's got a lot to release, including tons more 30k kits, 4 battletomes in the Fall for AoS, and we're still waiting on Leagues of Votann, Chaos Daemons, Astra Militarum, and World Eaters for 40k.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Or if the leaks for a new bike kit will come out this edition or be reserved as something to be released in the next edition.
Seeing as the two major kits that are still stuck in 3rd ed are Bikers and Huron Blackheart, I'm predicting a Renegade Chapters supplement that'll have expanded rules for all that other stuff (the Purge, Flawless Host, etc) as well as those updated models.
We may just not see it for a while. GW's got a lot to release, including tons more 30k kits, 4 battletomes in the Fall for AoS, and we're still waiting on Leagues of Votann, Chaos Daemons, Astra Militarum, and World Eaters for 40k.
Don't forget that they'll need to update the Daemon Prince datasheet. Rather than a proper supplement, I predict that expanded rules for Renegades would arrive via campaign book, which would also update the Daemon Prince and include the Traitor Guard.
RazakelXIII wrote: And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
lmao yeah.
People complaining that we have 180+ pages of... people complaining, don't seem to understand that this saga has been LONG. Everything from picking apart early playtest rumors to the leaks finally being confirmed to the reveals of the models to the release of the Codex (which was back in June) and now to the release of the Cultists (end of July) and now we're seeing that the Possessed, Master of Possession, and Accursed Cultists might not even be available until early-mid August... this has been a VERY LONG RIDE and I'm ready to move on to the next faction.
There's a good chance you should make that late August. Warcry is a two week pre-order and while not impossible, it seems out of character for GW to have a pre-order for the missing Chaos models on August 6 to coincide with the Warcry release on the 13th. We're most likely to see anything new on August 13 for a release on the 20th.
Also considering Kill Team has been reasonably on time so far, that's another August release that may take precedence over the remaining Chaos stuff if it doesn't release alongside it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It is strange how they can release so much and have it feel insufficient.
EightFoldPath wrote: Did I miss the price on the venomcrawler + 2 oblits box coming out on pre-order tomorrow?
Also, CSM Kratos still not out yet, it came out for the lapdogs on 07 June?
Gw is clearly sticking with their "no spikes, no Chaos" stance on the Kratos. You want one in a Traitor Legion? Play 30k. You can get two in one HS slot (Squadrons!). With Flare Shields! And it can actually get a cover save!
NinthMusketeer wrote: It is strange how they can release so much and have it feel insufficient.
Too many static kits that don't do what they should out of the box.
Chosen used to be a customizer's dream unit, rather than 'squishy terminators.' Cultists and cultist command offer little, and do so without any options or personalization. None of these kits provide a rationale for buying more than one, and several involve making an intensive, convoluted rationalization for buying any at all.
A real obliterator kit would've flown off the shelves. I think a venomcrawler-style reimagining of the older demon engines would've too.
Even cultists would've sold if they'd had parts enough to build a squad with options and the command squad was part of the box. Instead we've got the nazgul and some generic freaks in a completely different style that doesn't match anything.
Also bikes.
A Chaos update could've easily been a slam dunk. This is just a mess.
Missing out on things like a kratos datasheet feels like spite. All that's involved is swapping some keywords around.
The main issue with this is that GW seems to have dug a hole that they don't know how to fill.
It started with 6th edition Dark Vengeance. They added Cultists as a troop option to the Chaos Space Marines Codex. The options were pretty straightforward and limited even back then, because even then it was based on the cultists that came in the Dark Vengeance box. That starter box lasted not only through 6th edition, but through 7th edition as well. When they finally took it down, the only replacement that the cultists got was a single miniscule box of 5 push-fit models, 3 melee, 2 autoguns, but the datasheet for the Cultists remained the same.
Enter 8th edition. By then, that piddly box of 5 models is still on sale for a little while. Eventually it disappears when Blackstone Fortress comes out. Now, BSF starts off with Traitor Guard, and then eventually they get a box of 8 cultist models, mostly with ranged weapons, but let's break that down. 1 of the 8 is a firebrand with an over-the-top flamer. Another is the cultist leader with chainsword and pistol. One is a grenade launcher, one is a heavy stubber. That leaves you with 4 autoguns.
Think about that for a moment. In order to satisfy the needs of a squad of 10 cultists with ranged weapons, you have to buy 2 boxes of 8 and leave many of the models aside. 8 become autoguns, 1 becomes the leader, and 1 is a special weapon. Don't want to pay the points for a special weapon? Gotta get another box to get a 9th autogun, and it'll be the same push-fit model that you already have 2 of. The other side of this is that we STILL do NOT have a proper melee loadout for the Cultists, and a LOT of the rest of the 40k model range doesn't supply enough pistols and melee weapons to convert it out of something else.
Genestealer Cult models don't have enough melee weapons and pistols. You could use Necromunda models, but then you're using something that's actually a slightly different scale (Necromunda models like Delaque and Escher look HUGE compared to 40k things). The next closest thing would maybe be Tzaangors, but you're buying a kit AND an upgrade pack to get the chainsword+pistol option.
What Chaos Marines needed to satisfy their Cultist troop option was pretty simple. A box of 10 cultists with pistols and melee weapons, and boy did GW give us that and NOTHING more, while having the gall to charge more for it.
Even setting price aside, you're getting a box of 10 models that gives you the bare minimum in terms of what GW's technology and design team can produce. There is one singular arm/head swap in the entire kit, with many heads molded to specific torsos and others you MIGHT be able to swap around a little bit. There's no ranged weapons, no special weapons, no way to make anything other than the bare-bones loadout.
What Chaos Marines NEEDED was a box of cultists that you could kit out either with pistol+ccw or with autoguns, along with a single flamer, heavy stubber, and grenade launcher, and maybe a couple of mask or head swaps. THEN you'd have options. You could go and add on the Cultists of the Abyss models for extra variety, be able to swap heads around to help models from being samey. It would have been 2 sprues in a box that they could have easily charged 55 dollars for, and because it had the options to kit out the squad how the codex determined, I doubt we'd be as livid. We'd probably still find complaint, but it'd be harder to do.
Now, you know what I see? I see another option that's about to be stripped. Come 10th edition Chaos Marines, I foresee the Cultist datasheet being stripped down to ONLY pistol and ccw, with no options for anything else, whenever they finally decide to retire the Cultist of the Abyss box that they've tried to hobble along.
The legacy of the Chaos Cultists is something that could have been resolved at ANY point along this path, and GW kept refusing to do that extra little bit of work. If the original Cultist of the Abyss models had been a box of 11, with 3 more autoguns and the Firebrand as a separate character... if they had reprinted the Dark Vengeance cultists and just kept them going ad infinitum like they seem content to do with things like Chaos Bikers... if the cultist kit we just got had a few more options in the box (even if they weren't autoguns, just having a few more heads/arm swaps would have been amazing)... But in every way, GW seem content to give Chaos Marines a hodgepodge of attention, missing out on details, stripping us of options, and in the case of the cultists, doing the bare minimum.
I would have rather not had Chaos Cultists in the codex at all.
I empathize with this feeling so much. It just ticks me off that they could have fixed this at any point in the last decade and simply refuse to be bothered putting an ounce of effort in.
RazakelXIII wrote: And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
Wasn't there something someone posted that said the gribbly chaos part of the release was pushed back to the end of August? :(
Also, apparently the possessed do have some options, although probably nothing super special. Anyone with the codex able to confirm with some pics?
RazakelXIII wrote: And while we're all still reeling from the audacity of that cultist sprue, the Possessed, which are almost certainly going to receive a similar treatment, STILL aren't in the preview for next week's preorders.
Wasn't there something someone posted that said the gribbly chaos part of the release was pushed back to the end of August? :(
Also, apparently the possessed do have some options, although probably nothing super special. Anyone with the codex able to confirm with some pics?
I see one alternate arm for one model and 6 different heads.
Such lovely minis but the cultist box price is ridiculous. We'll see similar with guard infantry. I love all the new minis barring a few from the coven but the prices are now pretty insane
No no no. We need to wait for the Renegades supplement which will have extra Red Corsair rules, build-a-warband traits, and traitor guardsmen.
That'll surely fix it...
Lord Damocles wrote: No no no. We need to wait for the Renegades supplement which will have extra Red Corsair rules, build-a-warband traits, and traitor guardsmen.
That'll surely fix it...
Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
bullyboy wrote: Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
I love how you come in, ignore all the issues that people have been talking about the *model* side of the faction, or how the rules relate to many of the models in the case of stripped options, and just barrel in with being pleased with yourself about the book.
Rules change often. Watch, we'll have that many books that we'll "need" shortly enough, as the next campaign happens, supplements come out again, and probably some White Dwarf stuff as well.
bullyboy wrote: Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
I love how you come in, ignore all the issues that people have been talking about the *model* side of the faction, or how the rules relate to many of the models in the case of stripped options, and just barrel in with being pleased with yourself about the book.
Rules change often. Watch, we'll have that many books that we'll "need" shortly enough, as the next campaign happens, supplements come out again, and probably some White Dwarf stuff as well.
Not everybody has same issues. If his collection isn't affected the loss of options is less concern for him.
Shock horror different people different opinions. Guess you think dakka should be just echo chamber with one truth only allowed.
bullyboy wrote: Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
I love how you come in, ignore all the issues that people have been talking about the *model* side of the faction, or how the rules relate to many of the models in the case of stripped options, and just barrel in with being pleased with yourself about the book.
Rules change often. Watch, we'll have that many books that we'll "need" shortly enough, as the next campaign happens, supplements come out again, and probably some White Dwarf stuff as well.
Not everybody has same issues. If his collection isn't affected the loss of options is less concern for him.
Shock horror different people different opinions. Guess you think dakka should be just echo chamber with one truth only allowed.
It's shocking horror when said poster ignores said problems and goes "nah you're a bad consoomer"
This whole release has been a big rebuttal of the "wait and see" argument. We waited, we saw, and everything was either as bad as expected, or worse.
You are forgetting the corollary to Wait And See though. Now it's time for You've Complained Long Enough Already.
Well, considering the momentum that Chaos players have built up over the past 15 years, that would be a case of an Unstoppable Force meeting.......a wet paper bag. Considering the quality of the arguments presented by the "You've Complained Long Enough Already" crowd.
bullyboy wrote: Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
I love how you come in, ignore all the issues that people have been talking about the *model* side of the faction, or how the rules relate to many of the models in the case of stripped options, and just barrel in with being pleased with yourself about the book.
Rules change often. Watch, we'll have that many books that we'll "need" shortly enough, as the next campaign happens, supplements come out again, and probably some White Dwarf stuff as well.
Not everybody has same issues. If his collection isn't affected the loss of options is less concern for him.
Shock horror different people different opinions. Guess you think dakka should be just echo chamber with one truth only allowed.
It's shocking horror when said poster ignores said problems and goes "nah you're a bad consoomer"
Nah, it’s more shock horror that many actually ignore my past comments (go ahead, search in this thread) that agreed with many sentiments about the book. But as soon as I oppose the “common” view by stating that some complaints seem over the top, well then the flock just gathers and does what dakka flocks do.
The book is enjoyed by many, and is doing well it seems in comp scene (I think Auspex just posted a video about winning lists, haven’t watched yet). Trouble is there is this angry group posting here that intends to shout down anybody that either likes the book or opposes their viewpoint.
Shame that although several now on block, I still see the responses in quotes. Oh well.
aracersss wrote: does anyone feel like the old 6th cultists look much better than the new range?
I like both. I think the old Dark Vengeance cultists are great for 'seen too much war, fallen to chaos almost despite themselves' type cultists like you might see supporting forces like the Iron Warriors or Night Lords. The newer ones seem like more established religious fanatics like you might see in a Word Bearers force. I think if I had to choose one aesthetic though I prefer the older ones.
aracersss wrote: does anyone feel like the old 6th cultists look much better than the new range?
I do. I think they look better as a 'military' force rising up. Ragtag, cobbled together, poor equipped, but vicious.
The new cultists don't look bad and they definitely feel more like 'cultists' than 'insurgents' but to me they only look appropriate in an Emperor's Children/Slaanesh force. The 6th edition cultists could be used in any legion and look the part, especially Death Guard.
bullyboy wrote: Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
I love how you come in, ignore all the issues that people have been talking about the *model* side of the faction, or how the rules relate to many of the models in the case of stripped options, and just barrel in with being pleased with yourself about the book.
Rules change often. Watch, we'll have that many books that we'll "need" shortly enough, as the next campaign happens, supplements come out again, and probably some White Dwarf stuff as well.
Not everybody has same issues. If his collection isn't affected the loss of options is less concern for him.
Shock horror different people different opinions. Guess you think dakka should be just echo chamber with one truth only allowed.
It's shocking horror when said poster ignores said problems and goes "nah you're a bad consoomer"
Nah, it’s more shock horror that many actually ignore my past comments (go ahead, search in this thread) that agreed with many sentiments about the book. But as soon as I oppose the “common” view by stating that some complaints seem over the top, well then the flock just gathers and does what dakka flocks do.
The book is enjoyed by many, and is doing well it seems in comp scene (I think Auspex just posted a video about winning lists, haven’t watched yet). Trouble is there is this angry group posting here that intends to shout down anybody that either likes the book or opposes their viewpoint.
Shame that although several now on block, I still see the responses in quotes. Oh well.
You aren't just opposing a view, you're just outright ignoring and dismissing concerns.
And please, two tournaments is like nothing. If that's your standard, you probably loved the 6th edition Tyranid codex.
bullyboy wrote: Meh, as someone who was playing Iron Warriors with the chaos codex, shadowspear supplement, Vigilus ablaze and Psychic awakening Faith and Fury, this new codex is a godsend. That’s four books I can put away and replace with one. Don’t need new units so the book is a win for me, and probably a few others. I may get the possessed if they don’t turn out to be priced ridiculous but certainly don’t need them.
I love how you come in, ignore all the issues that people have been talking about the *model* side of the faction, or how the rules relate to many of the models in the case of stripped options, and just barrel in with being pleased with yourself about the book.
Rules change often. Watch, we'll have that many books that we'll "need" shortly enough, as the next campaign happens, supplements come out again, and probably some White Dwarf stuff as well.
Not everybody has same issues. If his collection isn't affected the loss of options is less concern for him.
Shock horror different people different opinions. Guess you think dakka should be just echo chamber with one truth only allowed.
It's shocking horror when said poster ignores said problems and goes "nah you're a bad consoomer"
Nah, it’s more shock horror that many actually ignore my past comments (go ahead, search in this thread) that agreed with many sentiments about the book. But as soon as I oppose the “common” view by stating that some complaints seem over the top, well then the flock just gathers and does what dakka flocks do.
The book is enjoyed by many, and is doing well it seems in comp scene (I think Auspex just posted a video about winning lists, haven’t watched yet). Trouble is there is this angry group posting here that intends to shout down anybody that either likes the book or opposes their viewpoint.
Shame that although several now on block, I still see the responses in quotes. Oh well.
You aren't just opposing a view, you're just outright ignoring and dismissing concerns.
And please, two tournaments is like nothing. If that's your standard, you probably loved the 6th edition Tyranid codex.
Again, reading is useful. I stated “seems like” doing well, so that implies an uncertain aspect because definitive data has not been gathered yet. It’s still relevant that someone is driving them effectively.
Its pretty irritating that one of the cultists has a bionic chest/arm with no alternative. So multiple boxes of cultists means multiple bionic cultists.
The rest of them being monopose could be solved with a few swaps at the wrist but not that particular model.
So a weekend of tourneys has come and gone, and nuCSM are sitting at a 46% winrate. Considering other codexes came out of the gate hot with massive winrates, that's not exactly a pleasant sight.
Word Bearers did better though, they're doing ok. But Night Lords are sitting at a 10% winrate... so yeah. Just re-affirming my decision not to get this codex and use my CSM for grimdark future instead.
cole1114 wrote: So a weekend of tourneys has come and gone, and nuCSM are sitting at a 46% winrate. Considering other codexes came out of the gate hot with massive winrates, that's not exactly a pleasant sight.
Word Bearers did better though, they're doing ok. But Night Lords are sitting at a 10% winrate... so yeah. Just re-affirming my decision not to get this codex and use my CSM for grimdark future instead.
God damn, GW really does not like Night Lords, huh?
cole1114 wrote: So a weekend of tourneys has come and gone, and nuCSM are sitting at a 46% winrate. Considering other codexes came out of the gate hot with massive winrates, that's not exactly a pleasant sight.
Word Bearers did better though, they're doing ok. But Night Lords are sitting at a 10% winrate... so yeah. Just re-affirming my decision not to get this codex and use my CSM for grimdark future instead.
God damn, GW really does not like Night Lords, huh?
I'm not sure where that number is coming from, as 40KStats has them at a 52% winrate with 38 games played this past week? CSM are at 51%, with 870.
cole1114 wrote: So a weekend of tourneys has come and gone, and nuCSM are sitting at a 46% winrate. Considering other codexes came out of the gate hot with massive winrates, that's not exactly a pleasant sight.
Word Bearers did better though, they're doing ok. But Night Lords are sitting at a 10% winrate... so yeah. Just re-affirming my decision not to get this codex and use my CSM for grimdark future instead.
God damn, GW really does not like Night Lords, huh?
I'm not sure where that number is coming from, as 40KStats has them at a 52% winrate with 38 games played this past week? CSM are at 51%, with 870.
cole1114 wrote: So a weekend of tourneys has come and gone, and nuCSM are sitting at a 46% winrate. Considering other codexes came out of the gate hot with massive winrates, that's not exactly a pleasant sight.
Word Bearers did better though, they're doing ok. But Night Lords are sitting at a 10% winrate... so yeah. Just re-affirming my decision not to get this codex and use my CSM for grimdark future instead.
God damn, GW really does not like Night Lords, huh?
I'm not sure where that number is coming from, as 40KStats has them at a 52% winrate with 38 games played this past week? CSM are at 51%, with 870.
95% sure 40k stats includes dinky locals nobody cares about.
GW put out the points updates for every faction. Chaos Marines were listed there, but to save everyone a few minutes, no points changes were made.
I wasn't expecting any, since the Codex did just come out, but it's obnoxious that GW doesn't highlight any changes with any different colors. Could have saved more people a lot more time.
But yeah, winrate statistics anywhere between 45-55% are generally a 'success' for GW, with things lower or higher than that being imbalanced and needing to be brought back into some semblance of normalcy.
We still are waiting for an FAQ on a few details (legionaries plasma pistols breaking the 'by the box' loadout), to see what happens with Traitor Guard, and of course the rest of the kits to actually be released...
drbored wrote: GW put out the points updates for every faction. Chaos Marines were listed there, but to save everyone a few minutes, no points changes were made.
I wasn't expecting any, since the Codex did just come out, but it's obnoxious that GW doesn't highlight any changes with any different colors. Could have saved more people a lot more time.
But yeah, winrate statistics anywhere between 45-55% are generally a 'success' for GW, with things lower or higher than that being imbalanced and needing to be brought back into some semblance of normalcy.
We still are waiting for an FAQ on a few details (legionaries plasma pistols breaking the 'by the box' loadout), to see what happens with Traitor Guard, and of course the rest of the kits to actually be released...
Doubtful pistols will be FAQ'd, several heavy weapons and champion melee weapons also not in the box. FWIW, almost every unit that has wargear options falls short of 'by the box' save for terminators and chosen - with fun unique ways to not meet the arbitrary standard on each.
aracersss wrote: does anyone feel like the old 6th cultists look much better than the new range?
I like both. I think the old Dark Vengeance cultists are great for 'seen too much war, fallen to chaos almost despite themselves' type cultists like you might see supporting forces like the Iron Warriors or Night Lords. The newer ones seem like more established religious fanatics like you might see in a Word Bearers force. I think if I had to choose one aesthetic though I prefer the older ones.
Definitely prefer the Dark Vengeance cultists, they looked like Imperial workers who'd grabbed guns and maybe hung a homemade chaos star off their belts.
The new ones like they had a couple of weeks to go to a tailor and work on their Chaos Cultist Cosplay outfits. One of them would look 'right' leading a squad of more normal guys but all together they look more like a Vegas review than a rag tag rebel group.
Maybe they're ment to represent mortal servants from the Eye o'Terror rather than rebel cultists?
aracersss wrote: does anyone feel like the old 6th cultists look much better than the new range?
I like both. I think the old Dark Vengeance cultists are great for 'seen too much war, fallen to chaos almost despite themselves' type cultists like you might see supporting forces like the Iron Warriors or Night Lords. The newer ones seem like more established religious fanatics like you might see in a Word Bearers force. I think if I had to choose one aesthetic though I prefer the older ones.
Definitely prefer the Dark Vengeance cultists, they looked like Imperial workers who'd grabbed guns and maybe hung a homemade chaos star off their belts.
The new ones like they had a couple of weeks to go to a tailor and work on their Chaos Cultist Cosplay outfits. One of them would look 'right' leading a squad of more normal guys but all together they look more like a Vegas review than a rag tag rebel group.
Maybe they're ment to represent mortal servants from the Eye o'Terror rather than rebel cultists?
I've got a bunch of the DV ones. I have a single box of the Cultists of the Abyss, but I'm gonna grab another for the extra grenade launcher. Probably will snag a single box of the new guys to mix in with everyone.
I think the worst part about this codex is that it's not even that far off from being a good CSM codex. If they didn't take out all the customization for characters/chosen/terminators/etc it jumps to like an 8/10. Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
But that's just happy, not even like ecstatic. Remember when they went through and made sure every LSM legion got a new character, even the ones who already had them? Why couldn't they do that for us. Decimus, Honsou, Erebus, it's not like we don't have tons of characters who deserve models...
It all just feels so lazy, and slapdash, and so... it just missed the mark as hard as it could.
It does feel like many of the things that are hard to get right were done right, then so many things which are trivially easy to get right they screwed up.
drbored wrote:GW put out the points updates for every faction. Chaos Marines were listed there, but to save everyone a few minutes, no points changes were made.
I wasn't expecting any, since the Codex did just come out, but it's obnoxious that GW doesn't highlight any changes with any different colors. Could have saved more people a lot more time.
But yeah, winrate statistics anywhere between 45-55% are generally a 'success' for GW, with things lower or higher than that being imbalanced and needing to be brought back into some semblance of normalcy.
We still are waiting for an FAQ on a few details (legionaries plasma pistols breaking the 'by the box' loadout), to see what happens with Traitor Guard, and of course the rest of the kits to actually be released...
Don't forget the eventualFAQ for our fw units. It'll just add the relevant keywords to make them work with the codex, but we still need it.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:God damn, GW really does not like Night Lords, huh?
No, no, no. The 40k rules team doesn't like Night Lords. The HH rules team seems to love them. It feels like the morale, Pinning, and Night Fighting (especially the Night Fighting) rules were written just for them. They go together with their Legion rules like peanut butter and chocolate.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
They're... ok. I have trouble theory-crafting rules with them in HH. Terror Squads/Night Raptors not getting line in their RoW really shot all my plans tho I'm still workshopping ideas.
Anyway if the rest of the codex was better I could at least happily use a homebrew legion trait instead, when playing with friends. But as soon as I get to chosen or terminators I just get sad again and stop.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
They're... ok. I have trouble theory-crafting rules with them in HH. Terror Squads/Night Raptors not getting line in their RoW really shot all my plans tho I'm still workshopping ideas.
Anyway if the rest of the codex was better I could at least happily use a homebrew legion trait instead, when playing with friends. But as soon as I get to chosen or terminators I just get sad again and stop.
They're "ok"? A Talent For Murder works for both melee and shooting, and is achievable through multiple easy methods: Pin them, force a Fallback, and if you can't do those, just outnumber them. Which isn't hard for a Legion that heavily uses jump pack units, which are all Bulky(2). Preysight ignores ALL of the effects of Night Fighting, and can be given to ANY Night Lords unit, including dreadnoughts, which gives Night Lords the only dreadnoughts that can ignore the -1BS and 24" LoS restrictions of Night Fighting. And even if Night Fighting isn't in effect Preysight still ignores Shrouded, which is a very common defensive ability, including the benefit of one of the two Reactions in the Shooting Phase. Nostroman Chain Weapons are great, and so are Night Raptors and Terror Squads, even without Line as they can still Deny. You bring Assault and Recon squads for Line. And in a game where deep strike for Terminators is rare, we get TWO types of Terminators with it built in. These rules are even better than the rules Night Lords had in 3.5.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
They're... ok. I have trouble theory-crafting rules with them in HH. Terror Squads/Night Raptors not getting line in their RoW really shot all my plans tho I'm still workshopping ideas.
Anyway if the rest of the codex was better I could at least happily use a homebrew legion trait instead, when playing with friends. But as soon as I get to chosen or terminators I just get sad again and stop.
They're "ok"? A Talent For Murder works for both melee and shooting, and is achievable through multiple easy methods: Pin them, force a Fallback, and if you can't do those, just outnumber them. Which isn't hard for a Legion that heavily uses jump pack units, which are all Bulky(2). Preysight ignores ALL of the effects of Night Fighting, and can be given to ANY Night Lords unit, including dreadnoughts, which gives Night Lords the only dreadnoughts that can ignore the -1BS and 24" LoS restrictions of Night Fighting. And even if Night Fighting isn't in effect Preysight still ignores Shrouded, which is a very common defensive ability, including the benefit of one of the two Reactions in the Shooting Phase. Nostroman Chain Weapons are great, and so are Night Raptors and Terror Squads, even without Line as they can still Deny. You bring Assault and Recon squads for Line. And in a game where deep strike for Terminators is rare, we get TWO types of Terminators with it built in. These rules are even better than the rules Night Lords had in 3.5.
I don't like that preysight became a thing you have to buy. And I don't like that Kurze is basically a must-take. But most of all, I just like chaos more than I like basic marines.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
They're... ok. I have trouble theory-crafting rules with them in HH. Terror Squads/Night Raptors not getting line in their RoW really shot all my plans tho I'm still workshopping ideas.
Anyway if the rest of the codex was better I could at least happily use a homebrew legion trait instead, when playing with friends. But as soon as I get to chosen or terminators I just get sad again and stop.
They're "ok"? A Talent For Murder works for both melee and shooting, and is achievable through multiple easy methods: Pin them, force a Fallback, and if you can't do those, just outnumber them. Which isn't hard for a Legion that heavily uses jump pack units, which are all Bulky(2). Preysight ignores ALL of the effects of Night Fighting, and can be given to ANY Night Lords unit, including dreadnoughts, which gives Night Lords the only dreadnoughts that can ignore the -1BS and 24" LoS restrictions of Night Fighting. And even if Night Fighting isn't in effect Preysight still ignores Shrouded, which is a very common defensive ability, including the benefit of one of the two Reactions in the Shooting Phase. Nostroman Chain Weapons are great, and so are Night Raptors and Terror Squads, even without Line as they can still Deny. You bring Assault and Recon squads for Line. And in a game where deep strike for Terminators is rare, we get TWO types of Terminators with it built in. These rules are even better than the rules Night Lords had in 3.5.
I don't like that preysight became a thing you have to buy. And I don't like that Kurze is basically a must-take. But most of all, I just like chaos more than I like basic marines.
You have to pay for Preysight because it's so much stronger now. And Curze is no more of a "must-take" than any other primarch. The Legion functions just fine without him.
The last part I can understand. Not getting to play your Obliterators, Daemon Engines, etc can be a big issue if you love using those units. You can get a "bit" of Chaos in 30k Night Lords by bringing a Legion Esoterist for some Daemon summoning, or some Word Bearers allies. But I can totally understand that those aren't the same.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
They're... ok. I have trouble theory-crafting rules with them in HH. Terror Squads/Night Raptors not getting line in their RoW really shot all my plans tho I'm still workshopping ideas.
Anyway if the rest of the codex was better I could at least happily use a homebrew legion trait instead, when playing with friends. But as soon as I get to chosen or terminators I just get sad again and stop.
They're "ok"? A Talent For Murder works for both melee and shooting, and is achievable through multiple easy methods: Pin them, force a Fallback, and if you can't do those, just outnumber them. Which isn't hard for a Legion that heavily uses jump pack units, which are all Bulky(2). Preysight ignores ALL of the effects of Night Fighting, and can be given to ANY Night Lords unit, including dreadnoughts, which gives Night Lords the only dreadnoughts that can ignore the -1BS and 24" LoS restrictions of Night Fighting. And even if Night Fighting isn't in effect Preysight still ignores Shrouded, which is a very common defensive ability, including the benefit of one of the two Reactions in the Shooting Phase. Nostroman Chain Weapons are great, and so are Night Raptors and Terror Squads, even without Line as they can still Deny. You bring Assault and Recon squads for Line. And in a game where deep strike for Terminators is rare, we get TWO types of Terminators with it built in. These rules are even better than the rules Night Lords had in 3.5.
I don't like that preysight became a thing you have to buy. And I don't like that Kurze is basically a must-take. But most of all, I just like chaos more than I like basic marines.
You have to pay for Preysight because it's so much stronger now. And Curze is no more of a "must-take" than any other primarch. The Legion functions just fine without him.
The last part I can understand. Not getting to play your Obliterators, Daemon Engines, etc can be a big issue if you love using those units. You can get a "bit" of Chaos in 30k Night Lords by bringing a Legion Esoterist for some Daemon summoning, or some Word Bearers allies. But I can totally understand that those aren't the same.
It's not even so much the chaos units as the chaos feel. It's hard to really explain in detail, I guess. To be clear, I do want to play them in HH, I would rather just have a good chaos night lords army than a good HH night lords army. Like, if terror squads were a 40k thing, I'd be happier about them than in HH where I feel like I'm better off not even really taking the unique units to do what I want.
cole1114 wrote:Fix the NL's awful trait and I'd be happy, at the very least.
Seriously cole1114, if you want good rules for your Night Lords then you need to check out HH. That game has given the 8th Legion the best rules that they've ever had, IMHO.
They're... ok. I have trouble theory-crafting rules with them in HH. Terror Squads/Night Raptors not getting line in their RoW really shot all my plans tho I'm still workshopping ideas.
Anyway if the rest of the codex was better I could at least happily use a homebrew legion trait instead, when playing with friends. But as soon as I get to chosen or terminators I just get sad again and stop.
They're "ok"? A Talent For Murder works for both melee and shooting, and is achievable through multiple easy methods: Pin them, force a Fallback, and if you can't do those, just outnumber them. Which isn't hard for a Legion that heavily uses jump pack units, which are all Bulky(2). Preysight ignores ALL of the effects of Night Fighting, and can be given to ANY Night Lords unit, including dreadnoughts, which gives Night Lords the only dreadnoughts that can ignore the -1BS and 24" LoS restrictions of Night Fighting. And even if Night Fighting isn't in effect Preysight still ignores Shrouded, which is a very common defensive ability, including the benefit of one of the two Reactions in the Shooting Phase. Nostroman Chain Weapons are great, and so are Night Raptors and Terror Squads, even without Line as they can still Deny. You bring Assault and Recon squads for Line. And in a game where deep strike for Terminators is rare, we get TWO types of Terminators with it built in. These rules are even better than the rules Night Lords had in 3.5.
I don't like that preysight became a thing you have to buy. And I don't like that Kurze is basically a must-take. But most of all, I just like chaos more than I like basic marines.
You have to pay for Preysight because it's so much stronger now. And Curze is no more of a "must-take" than any other primarch. The Legion functions just fine without him.
The last part I can understand. Not getting to play your Obliterators, Daemon Engines, etc can be a big issue if you love using those units. You can get a "bit" of Chaos in 30k Night Lords by bringing a Legion Esoterist for some Daemon summoning, or some Word Bearers allies. But I can totally understand that those aren't the same.
It's not even so much the chaos units as the chaos feel. It's hard to really explain in detail, I guess. To be clear, I do want to play them in HH, I would rather just have a good chaos night lords army than a good HH night lords army. Like, if terror squads were a 40k thing, I'd be happier about them than in HH where I feel like I'm better off not even really taking the unique units to do what I want.
Beyond bringing an Esoterist, the Word Bearers allied detachment is a good idea. What you could do is paint them in a Night Lords detachment and say that they are a special unit of Chaos-corrupted Night Lords. Take a Diabolist as the HQ and have a unit or two of tac support Marines with plasma guns that are updated to warpfire blasters. You could also take a unit or two of Gal Vorbak. Since none of these units are scoring units anyway, the fact that the Word Bearers and Night Lords are Distrusted Allies won't matter.
Rumor was that they're not going to be until the end of august.
Wouldn't be surprised if they come out alongside the Daemon book at this point, along with Combat Patrols for Nurgle and Khorne. (Their start collecting boxes are gone from the website). One last chaos push.
Maybe the FAQ/Errata is taking so long because they're trying to rectify their mistakes LOL
They already doubled down on those with the Legends PDF. Still no FAQ for our fw units either.
Oh well, way more interested in when the FAQ for HH is coming. Just how does an Ordnance weapon with Armourbane work......
Ordnance rerolls a die and Armorbane rolls two dice total, right?
I don't remember anymore haha
Close. Ordnance is roll two dice, keep the highest. Armourbane is roll two dice, and add them together. And understandable that you'd forget. Probably too busy trying to remember what happens when you combine: unit(X)+trait(Y)+relic(Z)+stratagem(D)+psychic power(Q)+......
I am OK if GW needs to delay a few months before releasing all of the kit options in a new book. What I disagree with is the total silence on when that will be.
Actually, pretty nice and not so different that if you have say some Beserkers converted up with AOS Khorne bits they'll still look cohesive in the army or unit.
Got to say I'm kinda disappointed after all that time waiting. Feels very generic to me. Without the sculpted Khorne symbols it could be just any other modern CSM sculpt.
I do hope the remaining squad got some more character.
Interestingly, the shoulder pads have the same grooves that CSM units have, but Thousand Sons and Death Guard lack them.
Strangely, Kharn's model has one shoulder pad that is also missing a groove. That debuted around the time of the current Raptors, who also lack grooved shoulder pads (despite releasing after DV, which featured Chosen that debuted the unique shoulder pads.)
a_typical_hero wrote: Got to say I'm kinda disappointed after all that time waiting. Feels very generic to me. Without the sculpted Khorne symbols it could be just any other modern CSM sculpt.
I do hope the remaining squad got some more character.
I quite like it. Of the 4 cult troops, Berzerkers are the ones with the least reason to deviate in terms of appearance from standard chaos troops. Noise marines have augmentations and sonic doodads, rubrics are rune encrusted dust canisters, and plague marines are half man, half armor, and half rot. Khorne makes do with some chains, skulls, axes, and bad attitude.
For sure. With the other three, there's a lot more dedication to the aesthetic.
Rubrics all wear quite distinctive Heresy pattern armour albeit with fancy swirls and robes to show they haven't really changed in 10k years.
Plague Marines have the signs of being Astartes but also have the intense physical corruption that marks them as servants of Nurgle.
Noise Marines will be interesting to see with a new sculpt but even then they merge themselves with their weapons and turn their bodies into walking speakers.
Berzerkers are just angry dudes, sometimes with helmet things. To be a Berzerker you just have to be earth-shatteringly angry all the time. No tentacles, no drug or speaker racks, no runes escribed to stop the dust from falling out. Just an angry dude with a big weapon.
I think I finally realized what my biggest issue is.
I'm still in love with the FW upgrade heads. If they had replaced the vox grill with pointy looking teeth, I think it would have gone a long way into making this model look less of a khorne marine and more of a berserker
Bureau Gnome wrote: Again, what's with GW's fetish for plastering loin/chaincloths on all Chaos Marine models since the mid 2010's?
Broadly, they're the wild barbarians to the noble Space Marine knights.
And that is a perfect Zerker design, with enough visual clues to clearly identify the model, without turning it into a walking pile of skulls and Khorne symbols. Calling it "plain" is an insult to purposeful design.
Bureau Gnome wrote: Again, what's with GW's fetish for plastering loin/chaincloths on all Chaos Marine models since the mid 2010's?
I can think of a couple of reasons.
A groin is a good place to put dangly bits.
GW's models occasionally have bad anatomy, especially the Chaos Terminators, with legs being too far apart at the hip. Dangly bits can cover this up and create the illusion that GW isn't bad at anatomy.
Marine armor is pretty top heavy and the lower half is very disco pants. That can lead to models looking unduly thin in the thighs. Bulking them up with dangly bits helps avert that appearance.
Dangly bits give GW an opportunity to tie models of the same faction together with recurring design elements. Rags for generic Chaos Marines, chains for Khornates, tabards for Black templars, nightgowns for Dark Angels. It's an effective use of otherwise empty and unused space.
As seen on the new Mk.VI Marines, you can make power armor very plain. Plain models have advantages and disadvantages. GW has a tendency to create models that are covered in a fair amount of detail, with that detail usually being quite deep. This lets even beginners paint their models to a decent standard without much experience and only basic techniques, thus improving the look of models on the tabletop and hopefully providing a boost in motivation to keep at it.
As has been mentioned, dangly bits can give Chaos Marines a wilder appearance, telling you something about their character.
The new Khorne Berserker is serviceable to me. I was expecting a little more bling on them, but this isn't bad. The only thing that would prevent me from purchase is if GW thinks a box of 10 should be the cost of Legionaries with the upgrade sprue and not the $60 U.S. most 10 marine kits are. Because at the end of the day, this Khorne Berserker model isn't that much different than a CSM, and 3rd party conversion bits are easier than ever to get a hold of.
Who cares about detail when the important takeaway here is the immense improvement in terms of stance. No longer is Khorne being worshipped by a group of footballers.
a_typical_hero wrote: I just think they felt more different back then from the old CSM than they do now.
They seem like regular CSM with a different paintjob to me.
Comparison
Spoiler:
Okay, but why?
What are some big differences that were present between old Zerkers and old CSM that are not present between modern Zerkers and modern CSM?
What are some big differences that were present between old Zerkers and old CSM that are not present between modern Zerkers and modern CSM?
I made another one with full squads:
- Berserkers looked busier / more detailed. They are about equal right now.
- The colours (especially gold and red) are more vibrant, though that is just a paintjob and can be changed.
- The unit's silhouettes are quite different from each other. We don't have the full picture, yet, but the shown model is nearly identical in pose to the squad leader (?) of the generic CSM squad.
- Not all, but some Zerkers looked way more dynamic than the generic CSM. Again, that might change with the full squad's release.
- The Khorne symbols (apart from the head) are rather small and easy to miss. File them off and you basically have the generic squad leader. Maybe it's a problem with the angle, as we don't see the shoulder pads.
Spoiler:
The sculpt is of a high quality, it just doesn't scream KILL.MAIM.BURN. to me as they used to.
What are some big differences that were present between old Zerkers and old CSM that are not present between modern Zerkers and modern CSM?
I made another one with full squads:
- Berserkers looked busier / more detailed. They are about equal right now.
- The colours (especially gold and red) are more vibrant, though that is just a paintjob and can be changed.
- The unit's silhouettes are quite different from each other. We don't have the full picture, yet, but the shown model is nearly identical in pose to the squad leader (?) of the generic CSM squad.
- Not all, but some Zerkers looked way more dynamic than the generic CSM. Again, that might change with the full squad's release.
- The Khorne symbols (apart from the head) are rather small and easy to miss. File them off and you basically have the generic squad leader. Maybe it's a problem with the angle, as we don't see the shoulder pads.
Spoiler:
The sculpt is of a high quality, it just doesn't scream KILL.MAIM.BURN. to me as they used to.
-Subjective. Personally don't see a difference.
-Not a difference in the actual models
-Also subjective. Personally I see no less difference now than before. Pose looks dissimilar, but it's possible I am looking at a different build.
-The zerker has a full sprint pose, which only one of the CSM models shares (could have missed some alt builds though, maybe someone can correct me).
Right now it seems like a very subjective difference being seen.
Old Zerkers were only more 'dynamic' compared to old CSM because they were all poses mere moments before falling on their face, instead of mid-dump.
But in all seriousness, of course they're all going have more dynamic poses, because unlike back then, modern GW doesn't suck at modelling and can give both CSM and Zerkers very dynamic, natural poses.
Still then, most CSM in the kit are posed both feet on the ground, and the one Zerker we saw thus far is posed sprinting.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with the Plague Marines from an aesthetic standpoint?
I personally think they're second only to the Space Wolves in how visually flanderised they've become.
I don't think the term really works when the entire point of the legion is to be focused on a very specific theme. Previously they just didn't have the model support.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with the Plague Marines from an aesthetic standpoint?
I personally think they're second only to the Space Wolves in how visually flanderised they've become.
I don't think the term really works when the entire point of the legion is to be focused on a very specific theme. Previously they just didn't have the model support.
I agree. I don't think that word really applies to the plague Marines. Besides, the kit itself allows for 'cleaner' versions, with fewer gaping maws in their armour and whatnot. There are some parts that go a bit too far (the fly Terminator is a bit much, but only because you can't not build one in every 5 like that - which is a failure of kit design, not of aesthetics), but generally the faults of the Death Guard line are their lack of customisability and options. They're very set in stone, with little variation possible, as they represent the shift between full-on multi-part modular kits (Thousand Sons were the last) and the more jig-saw puzzle style that they mostly do now (of which Death Guard were the first for 40k).
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with the Plague Marines from an aesthetic standpoint?
I personally think they're second only to the Space Wolves in how visually flanderised they've become.
Imo, they seem very cartoony. Big tentacles and mouths, surprisingly bright colors, etc. nurglings get a pass but I was underwhelmed by most of the range.
It’s not really a deal breaker, but it does kind of suck that all plague marines have to be death guard now. Obviously that’s what the faction represents. But the models are so far disconnected from vanilla marines that you can’t mix some into your csm as plague aligned csms, because of how different the armor is. Not to jinx it, but that doesn’t look like an issue for the berserkers. Which may also be an issue for some players lol
One side is a bit "meh" because, well, it's not that different to the CSM Legionaries. I feel if there was more indoctrination on MKII parts it would have been a lot more distinct.
The other side is Loving This for it's kit bashing potential. a few scrapes off the Khorne markings and a quick replacement of a Night Lords Helm and I have some CC Legionaries! A quick backpack change to a Jump Pack and we get some really nice looking Raptors! Got some spare CC bits from the Legionaries KT box and I'm sure some of these bodies are great for dynamic looking special weapons! I mean look at those chains!!
I guess I need to see the rest of them but right now my Kitbashing mind is screaming need for these!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I agree. I don't think that word really applies to the plague Marines. Besides, the kit itself allows for 'cleaner' versions, with fewer gaping maws in their armour and whatnot. There are some parts that go a bit too far (the fly Terminator is a bit much, but only because you can't not build one in every 5 like that - which is a failure of kit design, not of aesthetics), but generally the faults of the Death Guard line are their lack of customisability and options. They're very set in stone, with little variation possible, as they represent the shift between full-on multi-part modular kits (Thousand Sons were the last) and the more jig-saw puzzle style that they mostly do now (of which Death Guard were the first for 40k).
I fething hate the deathguard range, every 3rd guy having to have a gigantic tentacle sprouting from their kidney, or as you say the fly terminator, it’s infuriating to me. Absolutely prevented me from making a death guard army. The old ones were chipped, decayed, damaged armor. Looked like marines that had been through hell but were kept together and not allowed to die. The new ones look like they got dunked in a fish tank and came out covered in tentacles and random mouths.
Why does the new Cultist squad come with a Chainsword, even?
I'm not seeing a point, since you can't bloody legally equip your unit with one!
Chaosistency?
They can be equipped with 'brutal assault weapons'. Few weapons in the game are more 'brutal' than the chainsword. The brutal assault weapon also grants an extra attack like a chainsword. Also of note, it's not an Astartes Chainsword.
Why does the new Cultist squad come with a Chainsword, even?
I'm not seeing a point, since you can't bloody legally equip your unit with one!
Chaosistency?
They can be equipped with 'brutal assault weapons'. Few weapons in the game are more 'brutal' than the chainsword. The brutal assault weapon also grants an extra attack like a chainsword. Also of note, it's not an Astartes Chainsword.
The "Brutal Assault Weapon" is the default melee weapon for all of them, though, and also the only option. The Chainsword is a purely cosmetic choice, it seems.
Why does the new Cultist squad come with a Chainsword, even?
I'm not seeing a point, since you can't bloody legally equip your unit with one!
Chaosistency?
They can be equipped with 'brutal assault weapons'. Few weapons in the game are more 'brutal' than the chainsword. The brutal assault weapon also grants an extra attack like a chainsword. Also of note, it's not an Astartes Chainsword.
The "Brutal Assault Weapon" is the default melee weapon for all of them, though, and also the only option. The Chainsword is a purely cosmetic choice, it seems.
yes and than google wrote down whatever the AI thought the scream of pain was and the Editior (external guy, never has had anything to do with 40k, but it was the cheapest offer) made the text into the final Codex
H.B.M.C. wrote: I agree. I don't think that word really applies to the plague Marines. Besides, the kit itself allows for 'cleaner' versions, with fewer gaping maws in their armour and whatnot. There are some parts that go a bit too far (the fly Terminator is a bit much, but only because you can't not build one in every 5 like that - which is a failure of kit design, not of aesthetics), but generally the faults of the Death Guard line are their lack of customisability and options. They're very set in stone, with little variation possible, as they represent the shift between full-on multi-part modular kits (Thousand Sons were the last) and the more jig-saw puzzle style that they mostly do now (of which Death Guard were the first for 40k).
I fething hate the deathguard range, every 3rd guy having to have a gigantic tentacle sprouting from their kidney, or as you say the fly terminator, it’s infuriating to me. Absolutely prevented me from making a death guard army. The old ones were chipped, decayed, damaged armor. Looked like marines that had been through hell but were kept together and not allowed to die. The new ones look like they got dunked in a fish tank and came out covered in tentacles and random mouths.
TBF many details people identify as 'tentacles' on Nurgle models are probably engorged parasites (certain subtle design cue differences between them and how GW sculpts tentacles) though obviously players can fluff however they prefer. Still an entirely valid point though, with the fly terminator being particularly egregious. The Putrid Blightkings kit was an example of GW doing the 'zigzag' sculpting but making it work in a way that really left the field open for customizing.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I agree. I don't think that word really applies to the plague Marines. Besides, the kit itself allows for 'cleaner' versions, with fewer gaping maws in their armour and whatnot. There are some parts that go a bit too far (the fly Terminator is a bit much, but only because you can't not build one in every 5 like that - which is a failure of kit design, not of aesthetics), but generally the faults of the Death Guard line are their lack of customisability and options. They're very set in stone, with little variation possible, as they represent the shift between full-on multi-part modular kits (Thousand Sons were the last) and the more jig-saw puzzle style that they mostly do now (of which Death Guard were the first for 40k).
I fething hate the deathguard range, every 3rd guy having to have a gigantic tentacle sprouting from their kidney, or as you say the fly terminator, it’s infuriating to me. Absolutely prevented me from making a death guard army. The old ones were chipped, decayed, damaged armor. Looked like marines that had been through hell but were kept together and not allowed to die. The new ones look like they got dunked in a fish tank and came out covered in tentacles and random mouths.
TBF many details people identify as 'tentacles' on Nurgle models are probably engorged parasites (certain subtle design cue differences between them and how GW sculpts tentacles) though obviously players can fluff however they prefer. Still an entirely valid point though, with the fly terminator being particularly egregious. The Putrid Blightkings kit was an example of GW doing the 'zigzag' sculpting but making it work in a way that really left the field open for customizing.
GW's official painting videos refer to them as tentacles, so even if the designers intended them to be parasites it would seem the rest of the company either didn't get the memo or don't care to correct the supposed misconception.
Semper wrote: Bloody hell, such a long wait! Why bother showing it off lol
Thanks for the answers though!
Someone leaked a copy of the model somewhere online (a playtester, or someone with an advanced copy of a book), and whenever someone does that, GW immediately posts an article with a high quality image to counter the potato leak. I don't think they were intending to show off the model this early otherwise.
Semper wrote: Bloody hell, such a long wait! Why bother showing it off lol
Thanks for the answers though!
Someone leaked a copy of the model somewhere online (a playtester, or someone with an advanced copy of a book), and whenever someone does that, GW immediately posts an article with a high quality image to counter the potato leak. I don't think they were intending to show off the model this early otherwise.
They don't always post a new picture crisp picture for every leaks though. No ?
Not always, no. But the few cases where GW doesn't react are, as best as I can remember, related to new edition launches where even if a leaker steals GW's thunder, GW is unwilling to come out early in acknowledgement and instead just pretends that nothing happened until they are ready to get their their marketing machine rolling. New models tied to a codex release don't get that kind of consideration, so in most cases if there's a significant enough leak, GW reacts to it.
Semper wrote: Bloody hell, such a long wait! Why bother showing it off lol
Thanks for the answers though!
Someone leaked a copy of the model somewhere online (a playtester, or someone with an advanced copy of a book), and whenever someone does that, GW immediately posts an article with a high quality image to counter the potato leak. I don't think they were intending to show off the model this early otherwise.
They don't always post a new picture crisp picture for every leaks though. No ?
These days, yes they do. We’ll, Almost always at least. The exceptions being a few primaris leaks and the horus heresy. They may not reveal the whole picture but they’ll address at least one model from it, like with AM or Angron
I'm super happy about the Possessed coming out, but I hope that there are Combat Patrol boxes focused on all four gods, not just Khorne. Also, it doesn't look like we'll be getting any new daemon models.
RazakelXIII wrote: "There are multiple build options in the [Possessed] set"
Next week, when the sprue pics drop, I'm just going to stare at them and laugh for hours.
There are! We even already know what they're going to be!
One guy can have a different arm and the guy posed ripping apart a Marine can be posed without the Marine, resulting in him doing a street mime act instead.
What variety.
Edit: pictures of said options, as seen previously
GaroRobe wrote: Still no separate release for the master of possession 🤔
Nope, nope. Chaos marines are over now, GW has written this release off as one of their biggest disasters yet (which is impressive in the history of chaos marine codexes). We're done.
...until the daemon prince in December, and the real datasheet, anyway. Sigh.
GaroRobe wrote: Still no separate release for the master of possession 🤔
Nope, nope. Chaos marines are over now, GW has written this release off as one of their biggest disasters yet (which is impressive in the history of chaos marine codexes). We're done.
...until the daemon prince in December, and the real datasheet, anyway. Sigh.
At this point, I am not even optimistic we will get a new datasheet.
Given that possessed have had so many previous kits, I think the price point may be a bit high. I'm not even considering them given the other 14 possessed I already possess...
The accursed cult is looking more appealing to me. With a discount from the usual suspects these are looking like a fun batch of horrors to add to my forces. Happy to see the metal horrors are coming out, but the arms are so horrible to stick. I have 40 of these and I don't think I could take the paint of doing another 10. A real pity is that there is no way to get brimstone horrors on their own.
Just got hold of the new codex - WTF happened to Greater possessed? They are a relatively new models as well. I thought they might of been merged with the normal possesed like the torment in the accursed cultists unit, but no sign of them!
Drakheart wrote: Just got hold of the new codex - WTF happened to Greater possessed? They are a relatively new models as well. I thought they might of been merged with the normal possesed like the torment in the accursed cultists unit, but no sign of them!
You can just run them as normal possessed, they're the same size now
Drakheart wrote: Just got hold of the new codex - WTF happened to Greater possessed? They are a relatively new models as well. I thought they might of been merged with the normal possesed like the torment in the accursed cultists unit, but no sign of them!
You can just run them as normal possessed, they're the same size now
Yeah, Greater Possessed were just a unit they created to justify the size of the new possessed models that came in Shadowspear, but without having to release the new unit to replace the old kit. The older possessed were too small compared to the new models, and thus greater possessed were born.
Sureshot05 wrote: Given that possessed have had so many previous kits, I think the price point may be a bit high. I'm not even considering them given the other 14 possessed I already possess...
The accursed cult is looking more appealing to me. With a discount from the usual suspects these are looking like a fun batch of horrors to add to my forces. Happy to see the metal horrors are coming out, but the arms are so horrible to stick. I have 40 of these and I don't think I could take the paint of doing another 10. A real pity is that there is no way to get brimstone horrors on their own.
Possessed have had TWO previous kits. A god awful set of sculpts in metal that looked like they were based on Tim Curry in various movies and the plastic kit that's being replaced with the new one.
'So many previous kits.' It's two and one of those was metal monoposes. For the record....
Chaos Terminators have had, by the same metric, 4 (2 plastic, 2 metal ), Raptors have had 3 (Current plastic, 1 metal, 1 hybrid),, Havocs have had 2 (current plastic, hybrid/metals) and base CSM have had 5 and a half not including RT singles (KT, current plastic kit, Shadowspear monopose plastics, 5th ed plastic sprue recut/additions, 3rd ed plastic, 2nd ed plastic, 2nd ed hybrids).
Please don't act like Possessed have had some abundance of kits. They really haven't.
What's the possessed unit size in the new codex? Can people just easily add the two "greater possessed" models they're likely to have to an unit made out of the new possessed kit without it being a hassle? If so then it seems fine.
Crimson wrote: What's the possessed unit size in the new codex? Can people just easily add the two "greater possessed" models they're likely to have to an unit made out of the new possessed kit without it being a hassle? If so then it seems fine.
10. So if you buy 2 boxes of Possessed and add them to your Greater Possessed you'll have 12. Or one box and have 7. Wonderful.
Given their size, you could combine the left-over parts with some Havocs to make up the numbers. But that would require:
1. Both kits to be compatible. 2. The possessed kit to actually have lots of alternate parts.
Sadly this is not the Citadel Reality we live in. Not since the 1KSons release in 7th.
I was thinking more along the lines of using one or two of the new possessed and proxying them as something else. And then just add the Shadowspear duo to complete the unit of five.
The possessed are huge and have bigger bases than vanilla CSMs, but I'm sure they could pass as chaos lords, apostles (since they have huge bases for some reason), etc
Crimson wrote: What's the possessed unit size in the new codex? Can people just easily add the two "greater possessed" models they're likely to have to an unit made out of the new possessed kit without it being a hassle? If so then it seems fine.
10. So if you buy 2 boxes of Possessed and add them to your Greater Possessed you'll have 12. Or one box and have 7. Wonderful.
Given their size, you could combine the left-over parts with some Havocs to make up the numbers. But that would require:
1. Both kits to be compatible.
2. The possessed kit to actually have lots of alternate parts.
Sadly this is not the Citadel Reality we live in. Not since the 1KSons release in 7th.
Is their unit size just ten? That seems unlikely, as they come in boxes of five, right? Certainly it is 5-10, seven being a valid unit size?
Crimson wrote: What's the possessed unit size in the new codex? Can people just easily add the two "greater possessed" models they're likely to have to an unit made out of the new possessed kit without it being a hassle? If so then it seems fine.
10. So if you buy 2 boxes of Possessed and add them to your Greater Possessed you'll have 12. Or one box and have 7. Wonderful.
Given their size, you could combine the left-over parts with some Havocs to make up the numbers. But that would require:
1. Both kits to be compatible.
2. The possessed kit to actually have lots of alternate parts.
Sadly this is not the Citadel Reality we live in. Not since the 1KSons release in 7th.
Is their unit size just ten? That seems unlikely, as they come in boxes of five, right? Certainly it is 5-10, seven being a valid unit size?
Yes, it indeed is 5-10, but very few people actually ever run an uneven number of models as a general rule.
Yes, it indeed is 5-10, but very few people actually ever run an uneven number of models as a general rule.
Right, but that's a personal choice. Seven possessed seems fine, so there really is no issue. It's not like they need to follow Codex Astartes or something.
Yes, it indeed is 5-10, but very few people actually ever run an uneven number of models as a general rule.
Right, but that's a personal choice. Seven possessed seems fine, so there really is no issue. It's not like they need to follow Codex Astartes or something.
Someone should tell GW that because they wrote the rules to make it look otherwise.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Give me a box of possessed and a box of legionnaires and I'll give you 15 possessed. I enjoy converting though, not everyone's in that boat.
I think the scale mismatch (those thick, mutating thighs are spreading all over 40mm bases) and the sheer lack of possessed bits would make that questionable.
Those are probably some of the sparsest sprues I've seen from GW in a while (both possessed and accursed).
I mean we were kidding ourselves to think that the kit would allow any variation whatsoever, but it's still disappointing to see how set-in-stone those Torments are.
But, of course, there's no such thing as mono-pose, as people have been telling me for months. Just like "no model/no rule" was a myth when I first started talking about it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Give me a box of possessed and a box of legionnaires and I'll give you 15 possessed. I enjoy converting though, not everyone's in that boat.
Don't forget the 10 extra base you'll need. Those new possessed are plus-sized
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean we were kidding ourselves to think that the kit would allow any variation whatsoever, but it's still disappointing to see how set-in-stone those Torments are.
But, of course, there's no such thing as mono-pose, as people have been telling me for months. Just like "no model/no rule" was a myth when I first started talking about it.
Oof. And, as expected, they have a few extra heads and what looks like three arm variations. Just awful.
EDIT: Slightly better than I first suspected. The champion get the useless icon or some spikes on his backpack. There are alternate heads for everyone. Each other possessed has a "fixed" arm and one that includes an option.
The chainaxe guy can have Tyranid claws instead of his axe.
The space marine killing dude can have a rock at his feet instead of the marine and a reaching bare arm instead of the armored arm holding the marine head.
The spiky mace tentacle guy can have a power fist with a massive spike growing out of it instead of the mace tentacle.
The guy whose left arm is a blade can have tentacles instead of the blade.
Still not great, but genuinely more options than I thought.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean we were kidding ourselves to think that the kit would allow any variation whatsoever, but it's still disappointing to see how set-in-stone those Torments are.
But, of course, there's no such thing as mono-pose, as people have been telling me for months. Just like "no model/no rule" was a myth when I first started talking about it.
I've recently tried out mono-build as an alternative phrase.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean we were kidding ourselves to think that the kit would allow any variation whatsoever, but it's still disappointing to see how set-in-stone those Torments are.
But, of course, there's no such thing as mono-pose, as people have been telling me for months. Just like "no model/no rule" was a myth when I first started talking about it.
I've recently tried out mono-build as an alternative phrase.
Mono-build is a much better phrase for those minis that have zero possibility and no options.
As for mono-pose, I don’t remember anybody claiming there’s no such thing. The only arguments I’ve seen concerned where to draw the line between posable and monopose. A lot of modern GW kits have what I would call limited posability. Some people call them monopose, some people argue they can be posed to a degree and therefore aren’t monopose. At the end of the day is a stupid argument that has nothing to do with the models and everything to do with either the definition of a phrase that nobody can agree on, layered with bad faith arguments from both sides of the love/hate GW coin.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
I don't understand what GW has against cultists in this release, they're all completely mono-build. I wonder if they were initially meant to all come in one big boxed set or something.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I don't understand what GW has against cultists in this release, they're all completely mono-build. I wonder if they were initially meant to all come in one big boxed set or something.
Someone was tired of people asking for plastic cultists and so they did the crappiest job they could.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I don't understand what GW has against cultists in this release, they're all completely mono-build. I wonder if they were initially meant to all come in one big boxed set or something.
Someone was tired of people asking for plastic cultists and so they did the crappiest job they could.
Perhaps someone designed some great cultists and GW decided to sell them as a new ash waste gang for necromunda, so the design team had to come up with a new cultist box over a weekend.
Well to be fair, I dont mind the new cultist that much, and the dark commune was great. But even though I have loads of cultists for my word bearers, I cant say I would bother much with their models or options.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I don't understand what GW has against cultists in this release, they're all completely mono-build. I wonder if they were initially meant to all come in one big boxed set or something.
Someone was tired of people asking for plastic cultists and so they did the crappiest job they could.
A less disillusioned take one this would be that the people asking for Chaos Cultists were in GW's legal department and wanted the option covered for legal reasons, but because Chaos Marines aren't high on this year's update list they had to make do with the smallest monopose kit they could make because of sprue budget constraints for the Chaos Marine release. Throw in a desire from the miniature designers to do new things and not retread the same old stuff and you have perfect conditions for an unsatisfying release like this.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Can you post the assembly guides or at least the head options?
GaroRobe wrote: Can you post the assembly guides or at least the head options?
Stahly normally posts reviews on the Tale of Painters website. I imagine he only just got the figures.
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Geifer wrote: A less disillusioned take one this would be that the people asking for Chaos Cultists were in GW's legal department and wanted the option covered for legal reasons, but because Chaos Marines aren't high on this year's update list they had to make do with the smallest monopose kit they could make because of sprue budget constraints for the Chaos Marine release. Throw in a desire from the miniature designers to do new things and not retread the same old stuff and you have perfect conditions for an unsatisfying release like this.
Yes, I am sure they have pathetic excuses for their lazy release. However, I don't think it counts as disillusioned when I am exactly as disappointed by them as I already expected to be.
EDIT: Vincent Knotley (@VincentKnotley on Twitter) used most of the alternate arms for his Possessed.
If GW just wanted to push out a Cultist kit, they already have all of the files for the Dark Vengeance units. Which would have actually made for a better kit...
With only eight heads, you can toss in two shadow spear guys and bam, ten uniqueish possessed
Also, based on the image, basic chaos backpacks work as well. Chosen may be a better source for backpacks but it does allow another way to customize them
GaroRobe wrote: Can you post the assembly guides or at least the head options?
Stahly normally posts reviews on the Tale of Painters website. I imagine he only just got the figures.
Unfortunately there won't be an in-depth review of the new Chaos models over on Tale of Painters (I did review the Chaos Cultists and Dark Commune here: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/07/review-chaos-space-marine-cultists-dark-commune/) as I'm busy working on next week's review and I've got a Traitor Guardsmen painting tutorial coming up tomorrow
Crimson wrote: What's the possessed unit size in the new codex? Can people just easily add the two "greater possessed" models they're likely to have to an unit made out of the new possessed kit without it being a hassle? If so then it seems fine.
10. So if you buy 2 boxes of Possessed and add them to your Greater Possessed you'll have 12. Or one box and have 7. Wonderful.
Given their size, you could combine the left-over parts with some Havocs to make up the numbers. But that would require:
1. Both kits to be compatible.
2. The possessed kit to actually have lots of alternate parts.
Sadly this is not the Citadel Reality we live in. Not since the 1KSons release in 7th.
Wait. The unit size is 10? Does that mean you need two boxes to actually field them?
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Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Yes, it indeed is 5-10, but very few people actually ever run an uneven number of models as a general rule.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Can't say I wasn't warned here before Really hurting for the Accursed. Those torment stick out so much that having even two of the same on the table would look silly. Guess it's a "only ever buy once" type of deal for me.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Is it possible that you have any Gal Vorbak to make a size comparison with for the Possessed? It would be interesting, considering that they basically have the same stats.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Is it possible that you have any Gal Vorbak to make a size comparison with for the Possessed? It would be interesting, considering that they basically have the same stats.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Is it possible that you have any Gal Vorbak to make a size comparison with for the Possessed? It would be interesting, considering that they basically have the same stats.
We should give GW some credit though; while these are monopose and for the cultists monobuild the builds do look really cool. It does suck, massively, that there is little/no customization but they clearly put effort into making the one thing that is there high quality.
If we hyperbolize this into the worst thing then we have nowhere to go for kits that actually are worse!
The new Posessed are the first ones that i actually like to look at (greater posessed were/are also OK).
The old plastic ones have been unbuilt in a drawer for probably 15+ years because for all their flexibility and options i did not find a way to like them.
'nuff said.
That rather sizable move of the goalposts is a roundabout way to answer the question but I suppose it does answer it.
Edit: To head off the most common response I have encountered in lines of conversation like this; I am perfectly happy to agree, just show me the evidence to back claims made: a kit(s) that is similar or better quality, more modular, and has been available for multiple years. I don't feel it exists.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Is it possible that you have any Gal Vorbak to make a size comparison with for the Possessed? It would be interesting, considering that they basically have the same stats.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Is it possible that you have any Gal Vorbak to make a size comparison with for the Possessed? It would be interesting, considering that they basically have the same stats.
I can confirm the Possessed are monopose and the same size as the (former) Greater Possessed. Each of the five models has a choice of two arms. There are three additional heads, per assembly guide meant for specific bodies but if you remove the peg the heads should fit most bodies. Champion can have an optional icon on his backpack, the dude standing on the dead Marine can also have a plain rock instead. Backpacks are interchangeable as they fit any body. Sculpts are all around amazing and as they are Greater Possessed size and on 40mm size, they're taller than Primaris.
Now, the Accursed Cultists... what you see is what you get. Both the Torments and Cultists are all monopose models with no assembly options or optional bitz. Sad but to be expected. Cultists are on 25mm bases and the same size as regular Cultists, Torments are on 40mm bases so they aren't that huge. The detail on these is amazing though, especially the Torments are amazing sculpts again. You can really see how far miniature design has come on these, compare these to Chaos models 10 or 20 years ago.
Is it possible that you have any Gal Vorbak to make a size comparison with for the Possessed? It would be interesting, considering that they basically have the same stats.
So basically identically sized, nice
God the old Possessed were just God awful.
A lot of the bits are still great, though. I'm using a number of the bladed arms from the old Possessed kit as stand-ins for chain bayonets for my Horus Heresy Word Bearers army. I have seen pictures of the old models where they actually look pretty cool due to a cool paint job.
Another good source for converted Possessed are the Dark Vengeance Chosen. They're pretty corrupted already, you just have to replace the arms:
Spoiler:
This, however, is probably my favorite Possessed conversion ever:
Ash over at GMG has kitbashed some great looking Heresy Gal Vorbak from the new Posessed. Seems like if was as simple as replacing the backpacks and heads with more Heresy relevant bits and adding the odd weapon.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Ash over at GMG has kitbashed some great looking Heresy Gal Vorbak from the new Posessed. Seems like if was as simple as replacing the backpacks and heads with more Heresy relevant bits and adding the odd weapon.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Ash over at GMG has kitbashed some great looking Heresy Gal Vorbak from the new Posessed. Seems like if was as simple as replacing the backpacks and heads with more Heresy relevant bits and adding the odd weapon.
Well, back then, the old Possessed were amazing. They were one of the first Chaos models were they got the mutated power armour look right, before that it was just random tentacles and spikes sticking out (see the very old metal Possessed).
They're "ok"? A Talent For Murder works for both melee and shooting, and is achievable through multiple easy methods: Pin them, force a Fallback, and if you can't do those, just outnumber them. Which isn't hard for a Legion that heavily uses jump pack units, which are all Bulky(2). Preysight ignores ALL of the effects of Night Fighting, and can be given to ANY Night Lords unit, including dreadnoughts, which gives Night Lords the only dreadnoughts that can ignore the -1BS and 24" 
