Leo_the_Rat wrote: What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?
The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.
In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.
The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.
If this is true, then your D2+ weapons will be overcharged plasma, melta, and probably a stratagem (ugh) that turns all of your Accursed Weapons into power fists for a turn. Their effectiveness will probably come down to what combinations of Icon + Daemonic Gift + trait you can give them.
I don't know... It does feel very wrong. It's a whole part of the hobby no ? To customize, to play with and to paint "your dudes". Like with the harly weapons it seem like they didn't even want to bother.
And remember that rumour says that Chaos Knights will come out before us. So it's two releases at least before we finally get our second wound.
I don't need a special rule to tell me that my Chosen wielding an axe is a different special guy with a different special weapon than my Chosen wielding a sword. I especially don't need to spend 3 hours resolving the attacks of my super unique super special super squad because each one has been customized with a unique weapon.
Consolidated weapons like harlequins and Chosen (if these are true) are, for me, the best way for them to allow me to fully customize and play with my dudes. I have honestly been *not* building Chosen specifically because I didn't want to play with their messy weapon options, and also didn't want to optimize and take this year's strongest weapons. Chosen are supposed to be unique guys with their own preferred ways of doing things, having all of them wield a chainsword and a plasma gun doesn't show case that at all. Having Kroghas wield a power axe, Chulxiss wield a chainsword, and Trommal wield a thunder hammer but still being able to quickly roll all my attacks at once is perfect.
Big disagree. I can see the time saved, but thematically it goes against everything that Chosen are. You could just as easily take a squad of Khorne Berzerkers or Warp Talons or anything else if all you wanted to do was roll a bunch of the same attack to blend something up. Each Chosen is a step (or betrayal) away from becoming a Lord in their own right, and having them all baked down into one flat weapon profile is bleh.
They gave Black Templar sword brethren different weapon profiles, so why couldn't they do the same with Chosen?
But, again, I stand by my prediction that these are just the Eldritch Omens rules and not the Codex rules, and will be disappointed or delighted accordingly when the codex comes out.
drbored wrote: These rules could just be the rules that we're getting in the Eldritch Omens box and not what will be represented in the Codex whenever it comes out. GW have done this sort of thing before (remember the rules disparity between the armigers in Forgebane and in the actual Knights codex?)
It's been confirmed that the Eldritch Omens box contains the current Datasheet for Chosen.
I would not be upset if they all had the same weapon profile. IMO that would be superior to "You can only have ONE power sword and ONE lightning claw pair". feth that noise; it's far less efficient than a unit armed with all of the same weapons.
but thematically it goes against everything that Chosen are.
Thematically, Chosen are bad units that take forever to resolve a myriad of attacks that each have different preferred targets? Sure, okay.
Each Chosen is a step (or betrayal) away from becoming a Lord in their own right, and having them all baked down into one flat weapon profile is bleh.
Oh, so they're a unit that takes nothing but chainswords or thunder hammers in the hopes that one day they'll be the guy who gets picked to wield a thunder hammer or the teeth of Ghorisvex, okay.
At least if the weapon profiles are consolidated it encourages people to get creative with their models and make each one look like a lordling-in-the-making instead of a combi-plasma/melta toting suicide unit.
AL literally regard their cultists as members of the legion.
No they don't, they have select operatives that are treated with great respect. These are the folk who can seriously mess up the enemies plan.
The mass hordes of worshippers of the dark gods are there to catch bullet, bolts, blasts etc they don't care an iota about them. Even in crusade & heresy era once there usefulness came to an end they were either killed off, abandoned or sent off to die.
Why would you treat the bottom of the barrel barely human the same as another super human killing machine?
1. Chainswords
2. Chainaxes
3. Power Swords
4. Power Axes
5. Power Mauls
6. Lightning Claws
7. Power Fists
... and make them all the same weapon with the same profile.
It seems wiffy but then again people keep complaining about box based loadouts and finicky options lists etc. Maybe this is the natural next step to reducing the different subsets of dice rolling, multiple profiles and stealth re-releasing 3rd ed with a 10 sticker on the front?
It would be the typical GW response to this kind of feedback.
"Stop making limits on weapons based on sprue content!"
"Ok, to resolve this issue we'll just make all weapons the same."
"That's... that's not what we meant!"
In other words, a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario, reminiscent of the post-Chapterhouse culling, where rather than making models for all the things that had rules, GW just got rid of rules for the things that didn't have models (even if some returned later).
1. Chainswords
2. Chainaxes
3. Power Swords
4. Power Axes
5. Power Mauls
6. Lightning Claws
7. Power Fists
... and make them all the same weapon with the same profile.
I hope you're right, but who knows... And it certainly would be super weird if the similar looking weapons would continue to work normally in other units.
But like I said, the following would be fine by me, and actually preferable to the current situation:
1. Chainswords and Chainaxes
2. Power Swords, Power Axes and Power Mauls
3. Lightning Claws
4. Power Fists
So four different profiles instead of seven, and gives you a tad more freedom to model some variety without the rules getting excessively fiddly.
Why would you treat the bottom of the barrel barely human the same as another super human killing machine?
Because Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.
Because Grandfather Nurgle loves all of his children. (And everyone can spread his gifts equally )
Because for Tzeentch, the great architect of change, even the lowliest cultist is one cunning plan away from becoming the crucial pawn that will push the wheel of fate into motion.
Because Slanesh revels in the beauty of all ecstasies and the miserable surrendering themselves for forbidden pleasures are worth as much as tyrants entertaining the grossest excesses.
It might be a bit head canon-y but the universalism of what the chaos gods value and what they offer is one of the reasons why you can find droves of cultists willing to risk everything to worship them. Most of the renegade legions and other Chaos Space Marines worship the chaos gods as well. And a lot of them do so in the hope of literally become part of them as they ascend into deamonhood. And I think that means that it would be at least believable that some former super duper demi-gods would consider their fellow renegades as, well, fellow cultist. Like, I'm not saying veterans of the long war should walk hand-in-hand with Cletinius, cultist from hive world #459712. But cultist are at least as important to chaos as Space Marine when it comes to corrupting the galaxy.
But like I said, the following would be fine by me, and actually preferable to the current situation: 1. Chainswords and Chainaxes 2. Power Swords, Power Axes and Power Mauls 3. Lightning Claws 4. Power Fists
So four different profiles instead of seven, and gives you a tad more freedom to model some variety without the rules getting excessively fiddly.
I don't hate that as a concept, although the staunch World Eater in me winces at the idea of Chainaxes just being another Chainsword.
But if they all get turned into strats ala. Harli weapons... well...
Why would you treat the bottom of the barrel barely human the same as another super human killing machine?
Because Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.
Because Grandfather Nurgle loves all of his children. (And everyone can spread his gifts equally )
Because for Tzeentch, the great architect of change, even the lowliest cultist is one cunning plan away from becoming the crucial pawn that will push the wheel of fate into motion.
Because Slanesh revels in the beauty of all ecstasies and the miserable surrendering themselves for forbidden pleasures are worth as much as tyrants entertaining the grossest excesses.
It might be a bit head canon-y but the universalism of what the chaos gods value and what they offer is one of the reasons why you can find droves of cultists willing to risk everything to worship them. Most of the renegade legions and other Chaos Space Marines worship the chaos gods as well. And a lot of them do so in the hope of literally become part of them as they ascend into deamonhood. And I think that means that it would be at least believable that some former super duper demi-gods would consider their fellow renegades as, well, fellow cultist. Like, I'm not saying veterans of the long war should walk hand-in-hand with Cletinius, cultist from hive world #459712. But cultist are at least as important to chaos as Space Marine when it comes to corrupting the galaxy.
At least, that's what I think
Oh, the Thousand Sons value their Cultists. Just, y'know, mainly as cannon fodder. Having a use for them is not the same as actually caring about them. And besides, many members of the Legions have been fighting this war for 10,000 years - if a Cultist makes it a month he's lucky. Cultists just don't have the skills, experience, or super-human fortitude to get a Legion Trait - they're simply not Marines.
I was thinking more about this close combat weapon thing whilst on my walk today, and something occurred to me:
The sudden removal of differing types of close combat weapons actually makes perfect sense.
"But wait, HBMDVD... did you just say it makes perfect sense?"
I did. It makes perfect sense for the purposes of not invalidating models, whilst ensuring that any new models can still be played. It actually becomes better than weapon restrictions based on the sprue.
"But wait, HBMHDDVD... you hate weapon restrictions, and you hate removing options, so how is this better?"
If you look at this, as we have been, from the perspective of Chosen, this doesn't seem to track. Why would they do this to Chosen? But if you look at this from the perspective of the even more restrictiveChaos Terminator kit, it actually makes sense.
Think about it: We're worried that the restrictive weapon options will be applied to various units in the upcoming Chaos Codex. Chosen are one such area, but Terminators have it even worse, with one of each type of weapon (except fists, I think) in their box.
So what's the solution? Make them all the same! Rather than "One in five Chaos Termiantor can have a Chainaxe, one in five Chaos Terminators can have a Power Sword"... and so on, you just make them all the same. Now it doesn't matter what you give your Terminators, and it doesn't matter what any Terminators you already own are modelled with.
Then apply that to Chosen, and even CSM Squads, and Raptors and anything that can take those special weapons.
Everything becomes a "Generic Close Combat Weapon", and therefore every model has been invalidated (technically) whilst still being perfectly valid to use.
Genius (by GW standards).
"Who am I even talking to now, HBMBlu-Ray Director's Cut? You've gone mad!"
Oh I still think the whole affair is pants-on-head stupid, and that absolutely none of this is at all necessary. The weapons should do what the weapons do, and you should be able to use them without the utterly asinine restrictions GW has placed upon many units of late since the Death Guard Codex.
But, changing to these one-size-fits-all close combat weapons at least makes sense in a twisted-not-at-all-logical sort of GW way.
Plus there's a level of cosmic irony that, should this be true, the Chaos Codex will once again find itself getting Jervis'd. In fact, it'd be the first large-scale post-Jervis Jervisification!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I was thinking more about this close combat weapon thing whilst on my walk today, and something occurred to me:
The sudden removal of differing types of close combat weapons actually makes perfect sense.
"But wait, HBMDVD... did you just say it makes perfect sense?"
I did. It makes perfect sense for the purposes of not invalidating models, whilst ensuring that any new models can still be played. It actually becomes better than weapon restrictions based on the sprue.
"But wait, HBMHDDVD... you hate weapon restrictions, and you hate removing options, so how is this better?"
If you look at this, as we have been, from the perspective of Chosen, this doesn't seem to track. Why would they do this to Chosen? But if you look at this from the perspective of the even more restrictiveChaos Terminator kit, it actually makes sense.
Think about it: We're worried that the restrictive weapon options will be applied to various units in the upcoming Chaos Codex. Chosen are one such area, but Terminators have it even worse, with one of each type of weapon (except fists, I think) in their box.
So what's the solution? Make them all the same! Rather than "One in five Chaos Termiantor can have a Chainaxe, one in five Chaos Terminators can have a Power Sword"... and so on, you just make them all the same. Now it doesn't matter what you give your Terminators, and it doesn't matter what any Terminators you already own are modelled with.
Then apply that to Chosen, and even CSM Squads, and Raptors and anything that can take those special weapons.
Everything becomes a "Generic Close Combat Weapon", and therefore every model has been invalidated (technically) whilst still being perfectly valid to use.
Genius (by GW standards).
"Who am I even talking to now, HBMBlu-Ray Director's Cut? You've gone mad!"
Oh I still think the whole affair is pants-on-head stupid, and that absolutely none of this is at all necessary. The weapons should do what the weapons do, and you should be able to use them without the utterly asinine restrictions GW has placed upon many units of late since the Death Guard Codex.
But, changing to these one-size-fits-all close combat weapons at least makes sense in a twisted-not-at-all-logical sort of GW way.
Plus there's a level of cosmic irony that, should this be true, the Chaos Codex will once again find itself getting Jervis'd. In fact, it'd be the first large-scale post-Jervis Jervisification!
I think my brain just exploded. And I'm not sure if it's because this makes no sense at all, or WAAAY too much sense.
Crimson wrote: I hope you're right, but who knows... And it certainly would be super weird if the similar looking weapons would continue to work normally in other units.
But like I said, the following would be fine by me, and actually preferable to the current situation:
1. Chainswords and Chainaxes
2. Power Swords, Power Axes and Power Mauls
3. Lightning Claws
4. Power Fists
So four different profiles instead of seven, and gives you a tad more freedom to model some variety without the rules getting excessively fiddly.
Wouldn't it be:
1) Chain weapons
2) Power weapons
3) Lightning Claws
4) Power Fists?
Where do chain fists fit in or, are they a 5th category?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?
The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.
In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.
The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.
If this is true, then your D2+ weapons will be overcharged plasma, melta, and probably a stratagem (ugh) that turns all of your Accursed Weapons into power fists for a turn. Their effectiveness will probably come down to what combinations of Icon + Daemonic Gift + trait you can give them.
I don't know... It does feel very wrong. It's a whole part of the hobby no ? To customize, to play with and to paint "your dudes". Like with the harly weapons it seem like they didn't even want to bother.
And remember that rumour says that Chaos Knights will come out before us. So it's two releases at least before we finally get our second wound.
I don't need a special rule to tell me that my Chosen wielding an axe is a different special guy with a different special weapon than my Chosen wielding a sword. I especially don't need to spend 3 hours resolving the attacks of my super unique super special super squad because each one has been customized with a unique weapon.
Consolidated weapons like harlequins and Chosen (if these are true) are, for me, the best way for them to allow me to fully customize and play with my dudes. I have honestly been *not* building Chosen specifically because I didn't want to play with their messy weapon options, and also didn't want to optimize and take this year's strongest weapons. Chosen are supposed to be unique guys with their own preferred ways of doing things, having all of them wield a chainsword and a plasma gun doesn't show case that at all. Having Kroghas wield a power axe, Chulxiss wield a chainsword, and Trommal wield a thunder hammer but still being able to quickly roll all my attacks at once is perfect.
Big disagree. I can see the time saved, but thematically it goes against everything that Chosen are. You could just as easily take a squad of Khorne Berzerkers or Warp Talons or anything else if all you wanted to do was roll a bunch of the same attack to blend something up. Each Chosen is a step (or betrayal) away from becoming a Lord in their own right, and having them all baked down into one flat weapon profile is bleh.
They gave Black Templar sword brethren different weapon profiles, so why couldn't they do the same with Chosen?
But, again, I stand by my prediction that these are just the Eldritch Omens rules and not the Codex rules, and will be disappointed or delighted accordingly when the codex comes out.
Last I checked, the Sword Brethren profile was awfully done
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I forget. How many kinds of boltguns do Primaris Space Marines have again?
Doobie! You're like a moth to flame when Chaos threads appear. Never a bad thing.
And yeah, Marines have, I believe, 16 and a half different types of Boltgun currently. But you know how it goes: And They Shall Know No Inconvenient Rules.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I forget. How many kinds of boltguns do Primaris Space Marines have again?
Doobie! You're like a moth to flame when Chaos threads appear. Never a bad thing.
And yeah, Marines have, I believe, 16 and a half different types of Boltgun currently. But you know how it goes: And They Shall Know No Inconvenient Rules.
I was fine with the three varieties on Intercessors when they were released. However it has gotten silly now. Heavy Intercessors get their own S5 one because...reasons. Infiltrators and Incursors have different guns AND profiles because...reasons.
The solution that people want, just so that it can be said and on the record is this:
Give us a box with enough options to kit out the squad in interesting and varied ways.
ie, a Chosen box should have enough weapons to give them all chainswords and bolt pistols or bolters, to start.
There should be at least enough of 1 or 2 special weapons to kit the entire squad of 5 (ie, 5 power fists or 5 power swords) and a handful of special weapons that can be given to the champion (lightning claws, power axe, power maul).
It would be a whole extra sprue, add another 30 dollars to the kit, and make the 3rd party bits market swell, but it would be what people want, or closer to it than we currently have.
Nah, I'd say very few people want to pay an additional $30 per kit just to increase the size of their bits box. A few extra weapons per kit that are interchangeable between kits would be quite sufficient (I'm not following the thread very closely atm but that seems what they've chosen).
drbored wrote: The solution that people want, just so that it can be said and on the record is this:
Give us a box with enough options to kit out the squad in interesting and varied ways.
ie, a Chosen box should have enough weapons to give them all chainswords and bolt pistols or bolters, to start.
There should be at least enough of 1 or 2 special weapons to kit the entire squad of 5 (ie, 5 power fists or 5 power swords) and a handful of special weapons that can be given to the champion (lightning claws, power axe, power maul).
It would be a whole extra sprue, add another 30 dollars to the kit, and make the 3rd party bits market swell, but it would be what people want, or closer to it than we currently have.
Sorry but when elite infantry kits are £30-35 already I don't want that price to increase by 30% just for an extra sprue full of weapons that will mostly sit in a bits box.
The ideal solution is a separate & optional upgrade sprue compatible with multiple kits, but for now I'm happy with consolidated weapon profiles over worrying about bits trading or old models becoming unusable.
1. Chainswords
2. Chainaxes
3. Power Swords
4. Power Axes
5. Power Mauls
6. Lightning Claws
7. Power Fists
... and make them all the same weapon with the same profile.
Nah, but some baking down is okay in my opinion.
Power swords, power Mauls, power axes could all be one Power Weapon profile.
Chainswords and Chainaxe could be baked into Chain Weapons
That leaves Lightning Claws and Power Fists to be their weirdly unique 40k weapons.
Now I get why people want every single weapon to have its own profile. It's good to spend money endlessly and it has a drug-like effect on our brains so when we get "I need to make a squad/model with this precise weapon for my dream Space Jam Team!"-feeling nothing feels better than throwing money at GW and buying more models.
I am, however, getting very old, and I'd rather have models I can use for once in an edition than having to throw more money at GW or whatever 3rd party provider kids use these days just to get that new weapon GW overtuned.
It would be a whole extra sprue, add another 30 dollars to the kit, and make the 3rd party bits market swell, but it would be what people want, or closer to it than we currently have.
Yeah, because paying 90+ us dollars for a 5-man kit is the dream.
Plus not all of us have good access to a 3rd party bit market. If I order 2 dollar bit I am close to having to pay 10 dollars for just shipping. So, this is a not a solution for us who live outside unions and other land bodies.
It's nicely formatted, said the man, damning with faint praise:
This is unironically one of the worst changes implemented by GW in the entire history of the game. Knights, Fliers, Psychic in 7th, etc. does not compare to how bad this is for Warhammer and how badly it goes against the wargaming tradition.
Crimson wrote: I hope you're right, but who knows... And it certainly would be super weird if the similar looking weapons would continue to work normally in other units.
But like I said, the following would be fine by me, and actually preferable to the current situation:
1. Chainswords and Chainaxes
2. Power Swords, Power Axes and Power Mauls
3. Lightning Claws
4. Power Fists
So four different profiles instead of seven, and gives you a tad more freedom to model some variety without the rules getting excessively fiddly.
Wouldn't it be:
1) Chain weapons
2) Power weapons
3) Lightning Claws
4) Power Fists?
This is basically what I meant.
Where do chain fists fit in or, are they a 5th category?
I'd do chainfists as power fists which have some special effect against vehicles, so you'd need to roll them separately only when fighting vehicles.
I did. It makes perfect sense for the purposes of not invalidating models, whilst ensuring that any new models can still be played. It actually becomes better than weapon restrictions based on the sprue.
They started doing this to some units in AoS(first saw combining in Blades of Khorne in 2.0) and it has been rearing its beautiful head elsewhere as well(GSC Hybrids and Metamorphs f.ex.). I just wish they had done this with Death Guard as well.
I would say this is an ideal solution to a game that has decades of weapon option bloat and is causing endless balance issues. One day Chainaxe is king and the next release it is chainsword, and what players get to do is to rip their models apart or buy new ones. So I prefer consolidation personally.
Plus for modelling purposes I love consolidation. I can personalize how my model looks without worrying that I am gimping it for the next ten years because of the rules.
I did. It makes perfect sense for the purposes of not invalidating models, whilst ensuring that any new models can still be played. It actually becomes better than weapon restrictions based on the sprue.
They started doing this to some units in AoS(first saw combining in Blades of Khorne in 2.0) and it has been rearing its beautiful head elsewhere as well(GSC Hybrids and Metamorphs f.ex.). I just wish they had done this with Death Guard as well.
I would say this is an ideal solution to a game that has decades of weapon option bloat and is causing endless balance issues. One day Chainaxe is king and the next release it is chainsword, and what players get to do is to rip their models apart or buy new ones. So I prefer consolidation personally.
Plus for modelling purposes I love consolidation. I can personalize how my model looks without worrying that I am gimping it for the next ten years because of the rules.
Honestly if a new marine codex really is coming I hope this consolidation is involved. Having 6+ weapon profiles on the same model including variants of the same weapon type is obnoxious and needs to end.
lord_blackfang wrote: You could build a very "your dudes" unit of Chosen even back when MEQ only had 3 melee weapon profiles.
In fact, let's not even pretend this is about "your dudes" it's about min maxing.
And what's wrong with that?
I've noticed this in wargaming discourse, that min-maxing is some kind of bad thing.
Why are people not allowed to min-max? Why is that illegitimate? Why is the choice either causal-at-all-costs nightmareville, in which you have these cripple units with mixed weapon options that do nothing, or 'min maxing' - i.e., having an actually functional unit.
drbored wrote: The solution that people want, just so that it can be said and on the record is this:
Give us a box with enough options to kit out the squad in interesting and varied ways.
ie, a Chosen box should have enough weapons to give them all chainswords and bolt pistols or bolters, to start.
There should be at least enough of 1 or 2 special weapons to kit the entire squad of 5 (ie, 5 power fists or 5 power swords) and a handful of special weapons that can be given to the champion (lightning claws, power axe, power maul).
It would be a whole extra sprue, add another 30 dollars to the kit, and make the 3rd party bits market swell, but it would be what people want, or closer to it than we currently have.
I don't think that we can assume that level of pricing sanity from gw. For example: Havocs are on 3 sprues and cost $55, Sword Brethren are on 3 sprues and cost $55, SoB Dominions are on three sprues and cost $60. This kit is on 2 sprues, and if you don't think it will be similarly priced, I have a bridge to sell you. Gw pricing has more to do with battlefield role than sprue count. They could have absolutely included another sprue without jacking the price into the stratosphere.
That said, I'm warming to these rules. It opens up modeling opportunities without worrying about in game effectiveness. It doesn't hurt that this profile is close to lightning claws in most cases, which is what I generally like on my Chosen because "Night Lords" . It does bother me though that they'll probably add stratagems to make them be "power fists for a turn" and the like, because there's already way way too many strategems in the game already. It also bothers me that with only 3 base attacks and no invul, Chosen will not be able to beat Bladeguard in a straight fight. And that just feels wrong.
lord_blackfang wrote: You could build a very "your dudes" unit of Chosen even back when MEQ only had 3 melee weapon profiles.
In fact, let's not even pretend this is about "your dudes" it's about min maxing.
But weapons are not only about what they look like but also how they "feel" like through their effect on the game. Like I had in my head that my raptors with the melta were those who had the higher pain threshold as they bared the searing heat leaking from the tired old weapon. And so on. Have it removed from the "crunch" of the game and only bound to the look of the weapon and it's lore makes it feels... distant ? Accessory ? Like they might as well be nondescript brutal melee weapons.
I'm trying to figure out why the chaos chosen they painted for "How to Paint" youtube video was built with a helmetless head but they painted it like it was a helmet? I'm pretty sure he's only got the lower part of a helmet, and everything beyond that's meant to be skin. Maybe he's a traitor Salamander?
lord_blackfang wrote: You could build a very "your dudes" unit of Chosen even back when MEQ only had 3 melee weapon profiles.
In fact, let's not even pretend this is about "your dudes" it's about min maxing.
And what's wrong with that?
I've noticed this in wargaming discourse, that min-maxing is some kind of bad thing.
Why are people not allowed to min-max? Why is that illegitimate? Why is the choice either causal-at-all-costs nightmareville, in which you have these cripple units with mixed weapon options that do nothing, or 'min maxing' - i.e., having an actually functional unit.
Because there shouldn't be a "best" or "wrong" way to build a unit. Min-max is a symptom of woeful balance a lot of the time. If there was no obvious best loadout before hitting diminishing returns, because it was balanced, min-maxing would go away to a large degree.
Yea if the only way your unit of ultra individualistic champions works is by having all dual wielding double combi plasmas or whatever the skew list of the month is, there's for sure a problem somewhere.
lord_blackfang wrote: You could build a very "your dudes" unit of Chosen even back when MEQ only had 3 melee weapon profiles.
In fact, let's not even pretend this is about "your dudes" it's about min maxing.
And what's wrong with that?
I've noticed this in wargaming discourse, that min-maxing is some kind of bad thing.
Why are people not allowed to min-max? Why is that illegitimate? Why is the choice either causal-at-all-costs nightmareville, in which you have these cripple units with mixed weapon options that do nothing, or 'min maxing' - i.e., having an actually functional unit.
Because there shouldn't be a "best" or "wrong" way to build a unit.
I agree to an extent. GW has no interest in fixing this, however.
Instead, you can't have a squad of five people armed with melta guns. They have to be a cripple unit that can notionally fight five different kinds of enemies, but they can't actually fight any of them, because a diluted selection of weaponry stops them from being able to apply force concentration meaningfully.
Min-max is a symptom of woeful balance a lot of the time. If there was no obvious best loadout before hitting diminishing returns, because it was balanced, min-maxing would go away to a large degree.
Min-maxing is also a symptom of a concept in real life called force concentration.
It really doesn't matter how well balanced something is; by virtue of how most statistics work, maximising one of a certain weapon tends to be the best way to go - in practically any game. It has been like this since 3rd edition.
So now most of my army is illegal, because I made this choice to concentrate weapon options, but for someone, somewhere it is balanced - maybe. It's cool that people argue for customisation until it starts to allow people to win - at that point it becomes an issue.
lord_blackfang wrote:Yea if the only way your unit of ultra individualistic champions works is by having all dual wielding double combi plasmas or whatever the skew list of the month is, there's for sure a problem somewhere.
Yeah my unit of ultra effective fighters instead should all have different weapons, making them a cripple unit that can do nothing. But at least some CAAC-esque players online, for who the concept of winning the game is pure anathema, can feel it matches their idea of the 'lore'.
One thing that kills me about these rumors is that somehow, I've built almost entirely invalid Chosen so far?
Built from CSM Kit. The plasma gun toting ones just in general are not valid any more. I think I have 3 valid dudemans out of this batch (combi-plasma/accursed weapon) but giving some bolt pistols was a huge error
Rihgu wrote: One thing that kills me about these rumors is that somehow, I've built almost entirely invalid Chosen so far?
Built from CSM Kit. The plasma gun toting ones just in general are not valid any more. I think I have 3 valid dudemans out of this batch (combi-plasma/accursed weapon) but giving some bolt pistols was a huge error
Honestly I didn't even build these models for years because it felt wrong to build so many samey loadouts for Chosen. Then my friend wanted to play a tournament prep game IRL so I had to throw together some models against my better judgement.
Now that Chosen have a set of rules I feel comfortable building them by... nooooo!
(I'm probably fine using the plasma gunners in CSM squads and distributing the combi-plasma's among 3 units of otherwise properly loaded-out Chosen, and ignoring the bolt pistols on all of them. It's not like anybody has ever used bolt pistols on Chosen in the history of the game)
lord_blackfang wrote: You could build a very "your dudes" unit of Chosen even back when MEQ only had 3 melee weapon profiles.
In fact, let's not even pretend this is about "your dudes" it's about min maxing.
And what's wrong with that?
I've noticed this in wargaming discourse, that min-maxing is some kind of bad thing.
Why are people not allowed to min-max? Why is that illegitimate? Why is the choice either causal-at-all-costs nightmareville, in which you have these cripple units with mixed weapon options that do nothing, or 'min maxing' - i.e., having an actually functional unit.
Because there shouldn't be a "best" or "wrong" way to build a unit.
I agree to an extent. GW has no interest in fixing this, however.
Instead, you can't have a squad of five people armed with melta guns. They have to be a cripple unit that can notionally fight five different kinds of enemies, but they can't actually fight any of them, because a diluted selection of weaponry stops them from being able to apply force concentration meaningfully.
Min-max is a symptom of woeful balance a lot of the time. If there was no obvious best loadout before hitting diminishing returns, because it was balanced, min-maxing would go away to a large degree.
Min-maxing is also a symptom of a concept in real life called force concentration.
It really doesn't matter how well balanced something is; by virtue of how most statistics work, maximising one of a certain weapon tends to be the best way to go - in practically any game. It has been like this since 3rd edition.
So now most of my army is illegal, because I made this choice to concentrate weapon options, but for someone, somewhere it is balanced - maybe. It's cool that people argue for customisation until it starts to allow people to win - at that point it becomes an issue.
lord_blackfang wrote:Yea if the only way your unit of ultra individualistic champions works is by having all dual wielding double combi plasmas or whatever the skew list of the month is, there's for sure a problem somewhere.
Yeah my unit of ultra effective fighters instead should all have different weapons, making them a cripple unit that can do nothing. But at least some CAAC-esque players online, for who the concept of winning the game is pure anathema, can feel it matches their idea of the 'lore'.
Nope I'm sorry, there's nothing "better" about having to buy and convert precisely X number of models with the most point efficient loadout for a precise damage profile. Wanting a unit to work well regardless how it looks isn't CAAC.
I'm curious why all the veterans in your army, magically carry the exact same loadout with 0 personal preference. "Welcome to the Blood Reapers, here we only craft combi plasmas and powerfists!"
Rihgu wrote: One thing that kills me about these rumors is that somehow, I've built almost entirely invalid Chosen so far?
Built from CSM Kit. The plasma gun toting ones just in general are not valid any more. I think I have 3 valid dudemans out of this batch (combi-plasma/accursed weapon) but giving some bolt pistols was a huge error
I'm wondering if the "trade up to 2 bolters for pistols" bit is an error in the game of "telephone" that's happening between the actual leaker and the poster on B&C that's actually telling us this stuff. Most of the models have pistol holsters on them, and why would anyone trade a boltgun for a bolt pistol? I'm thinking it might actually be "trade 2 bolters for 2 plasma pistols". That would make more sense. Remember, they've already gotten some stuff wrong. Originally everything got a trait, now Cultists don't, I wouldn't be surprised to see that extended to daemon engines to match Death Guard. As for the plasma guns, anyone that doesn't let you "counts as" them as combi-plasma is an .
lord_blackfang wrote: You could build a very "your dudes" unit of Chosen even back when MEQ only had 3 melee weapon profiles.
In fact, let's not even pretend this is about "your dudes" it's about min maxing.
And what's wrong with that?
I've noticed this in wargaming discourse, that min-maxing is some kind of bad thing.
Why are people not allowed to min-max? Why is that illegitimate? Why is the choice either causal-at-all-costs nightmareville, in which you have these cripple units with mixed weapon options that do nothing, or 'min maxing' - i.e., having an actually functional unit.
Because there shouldn't be a "best" or "wrong" way to build a unit.
I agree to an extent. GW has no interest in fixing this, however.
Instead, you can't have a squad of five people armed with melta guns. They have to be a cripple unit that can notionally fight five different kinds of enemies, but they can't actually fight any of them, because a diluted selection of weaponry stops them from being able to apply force concentration meaningfully.
Min-max is a symptom of woeful balance a lot of the time. If there was no obvious best loadout before hitting diminishing returns, because it was balanced, min-maxing would go away to a large degree.
Min-maxing is also a symptom of a concept in real life called force concentration.
It really doesn't matter how well balanced something is; by virtue of how most statistics work, maximising one of a certain weapon tends to be the best way to go - in practically any game. It has been like this since 3rd edition.
So now most of my army is illegal, because I made this choice to concentrate weapon options, but for someone, somewhere it is balanced - maybe. It's cool that people argue for customisation until it starts to allow people to win - at that point it becomes an issue.
lord_blackfang wrote:Yea if the only way your unit of ultra individualistic champions works is by having all dual wielding double combi plasmas or whatever the skew list of the month is, there's for sure a problem somewhere.
Yeah my unit of ultra effective fighters instead should all have different weapons, making them a cripple unit that can do nothing. But at least some CAAC-esque players online, for who the concept of winning the game is pure anathema, can feel it matches their idea of the 'lore'.
Nope I'm sorry, there's nothing "better" about having to buy and convert precisely X number of models with the most point efficient loadout for a precise damage profile. Wanting a unit to work well regardless how it looks isn't CAAC.
I'm curious why all the veterans in your army, magically carry the exact same loadout with 0 personal preference. "Welcome to the Blood Reapers, here we only craft combi plasmas and powerfists!"
Then maybe GW should sell other weapon options, or perhaps even include them all in the box.
I agree - but I don't see why that should restrict the choice of people who want to concentrate weapons.
Because it's by far the most effective build to concentrate weapons. Usually either plasma guns or combi bolters do a good job (power fists and close quarters is a bit of a waste of time).
Interesting that effort converting miniatures doesn't matter if they don't meet a certain nebulous idea of the lore. What does the personal preference of plastic figures matter? Are you telling me Alpha Legion, with their doctrine of 'everyone looks the same and dresses to avoid drawing attention' would have unique weapon load outs for every member?
Casuals live in this ridiculous world where everything is subject to the lore; unless the lore disagrees with them (because it's incredibly nebulous). Every Chosen is an individual! Individual to the point of being a cripple unit.
It's simply impossible to balance 'every load out should be effective'. Even in games a lot more balanced than 40k, like Bolt Action, mixing weapon ranges is a plea for death.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as a brief question; what if you had it that your Chaos Space Marines were well organised renegades who followed in fairly classic legion traditions of concentrating weapons.
I guess that doesn't count? It doesn't fit a nebulous understanding of the lore.
Instead, you have to be an individual, and join the other individuals who have to have a specific weapon option. Chosen are so individual that only one in five Chosen ever has lightning claws. Two other dudes have chainswords (they aren't the individuals in the unit), but two others guys can have unique weapons. They're the real individuals.
I agree - but I don't see why that should restrict the choice of people who want to concentrate weapons.
Because it's by far the most effective build to concentrate weapons. Usually either plasma guns or combi bolters do a good job (power fists and close quarters is a bit of a waste of time).
And allowing ridiculous concentrations of firepower was one of the main stepping stones of the gameplay dumbification of 40k.
I agree - but I don't see why that should restrict the choice of people who want to concentrate weapons.
Because it's by far the most effective build to concentrate weapons. Usually either plasma guns or combi bolters do a good job (power fists and close quarters is a bit of a waste of time).
And allowing ridiculous concentrations of firepower was one of the main stepping stones of the gameplay dumbification of 40k.
Fire power concentration is going to exist in any game where more than a single model has a ranged attack.
I agree - but I don't see why that should restrict the choice of people who want to concentrate weapons.
Because it's by far the most effective build to concentrate weapons. Usually either plasma guns or combi bolters do a good job (power fists and close quarters is a bit of a waste of time).
And allowing ridiculous concentrations of firepower was one of the main stepping stones of the gameplay dumbification of 40k.
Fire power concentration is going to exist in any game where more than a single model has a ranged attack.
You're thinking concentration of bullets, I mean concentration of guns. Smart games don't allow whole squads of identical hyperspecialized ultraeffective weapons that leave zero room for tactics other than choosing the squishiest target. I promise you there was more game in 40k when you had units of 8 bolters, 1 plasma and 1 lascannon.
I agree - but I don't see why that should restrict the choice of people who want to concentrate weapons.
Because it's by far the most effective build to concentrate weapons. Usually either plasma guns or combi bolters do a good job (power fists and close quarters is a bit of a waste of time).
And allowing ridiculous concentrations of firepower was one of the main stepping stones of the gameplay dumbification of 40k.
Fire power concentration is going to exist in any game where more than a single model has a ranged attack.
You're thinking concentration of bullets, I mean concentration of guns. Smart games don't allow whole squads of identical hyperspecialized ultraeffective weapons that leave zero room for tactics other than choosing the squishiest target. I promise you there was more game in 40k when you had units of 8 bolters, 1 plasma and 1 lascannon.
What 'tactics' are there to mixed weapons? It's interesting that people try to act like specialised units should be more effective on some tactical merit, but 40k is neither at the scale or complexity to allow for that.
How is bringing multiple melta guns to blow up tanks not a legitimate strategy? How is it less tactical? How is bringing multiple plasma guns to destroy a terminator unit not a tactical approach? Why is a mixed selection of weapons tactical?
There is this fantasy in the heads of certain people that unless you leap through several hoops and have some kind of specialised approach towards something, you didn't really achieve that goal. Ambushing an enemy unit with a mass of anti-tank weapons isn't legitimate; you have to fight him with three different units, most of whom can't harm him.
I remember playing with one las cannon and one plasma gun. It fething sucked. The units were worthless. They contributed nothing to the game. They were not more tactical - except in that you desperately had to figure out the best way for them to do more than just sit on an objective.
Causals live in a fantasy realm where games should revolve around specific conceptions of fluff.
I agree - but I don't see why that should restrict the choice of people who want to concentrate weapons.
Because it's by far the most effective build to concentrate weapons. Usually either plasma guns or combi bolters do a good job (power fists and close quarters is a bit of a waste of time).
And allowing ridiculous concentrations of firepower was one of the main stepping stones of the gameplay dumbification of 40k.
Fire power concentration is going to exist in any game where more than a single model has a ranged attack.
You're thinking concentration of bullets, I mean concentration of guns. Smart games don't allow whole squads of identical hyperspecialized ultraeffective weapons that leave zero room for tactics other than choosing the squishiest target. I promise you there was more game in 40k when you had units of 8 bolters, 1 plasma and 1 lascannon.
What 'tactics' are there to mixed weapons? It's interesting that people try to act like specialised units should be more effective on some tactical merit, but 40k is neither at the scale or complexity to allow for that.
And no one in warfare has EVER concentrated [url=https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/world-war-2/images/d/da/StG_44-8.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120706194132]specific kinds of weapons!
[/url]
How is bringing multiple melta guns to blow up tanks not a legitimate strategy? How is bringing multiple plasma guns to destroy a terminator unit not a tactical approach? Why is a mixed selection of weapons tactical?
Causals live in a fantasy realm where games should revolve around specific conceptions of fluff.
And since you like to tag people as "casuals", what fun label do you associate with yourself?
The vast bulk of people in this hobby aren't sweaty cheese mongering tournament dwellers, they're casual. They play... casually.
My primary interest in the game is playing it as a game. I enjoy the lore and universe, but the lore is nebulous, and pretty much 99.99% of people don't know what the feth they're talking about when it comes to it. A majority of people understand 40k based on memes and gak, and then try to judge how the game runs on that stuff (like a game of Chinese Whispers).
But I don't go to tournaments, and I exclusively play with my friends.
My interest when it comes to games is to build the most effective fighting force possible, while still having it try to make sense on some level (i.e., no Khorne Bezerkers in my Emperor's Children army). I don't buy units that don't interest me (I don't really like the Discolord, for example, and I don't feel that having three of them would ever really be cool). I also don't chase the 'new hot thing', because t now I have 2,000pts of models, I don't like to have to keep updating my collection.
I believe certain things are important; I would rather people's models not become invalid (under any circumstances). I am against any miniature ceasing to be usable, and I am a proud absolutist in this regard. I would rather conversions and custom stuff remain a key part of the game. It annoys me that these things are curtailed, when they negatively impact all groups of players.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
Folding chain axes and power swords and such into one profile makes some sense imo because as far as I could tell, chain axes had lost any uniqueness after the changes to power swords, and weren't much different from chain swords either.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
I don't see why the datasheet is going to be a nightmare. Folding chainaxes, chainswords and their power weapons equivalent into a single profile can only translate into a less nightmarish datasheet because there will be less options.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
Powerfist / claws are probably for the unit champion only looking at the sprue quantities. Then all the all various weapon types (chain weapons, sword, axe, etc) fall under the same profile.
The vast bulk of people in this hobby aren't sweaty cheese mongering tournament dwellers, they're casual. They play... casually.
I play casual all the time and even I hate this proliferation of options that make you feel like you are throwing wet noodles at an enemy. It's why I'd rather pick consolidation of profiles and give me freedom to do whatever I want when modeling my heroes than sit an edition out because GW decided that the profile I picked is the worst one.
Trap unit/weapon options just create feel bad moments for everyone, regardless of whether they are casuals or competitive.
I do however think that going forward ranged weapons will keep all their distinctiveness so anyone afraid of plasma and melta becoming the same can probably relax. I think consolidation is much more likely to happen with melee weapons as it appears to be a rising pattern in GW game development. Especially since many melee weapons have weird availability depending on box and edition and is a part of a phase that has return actions. Ie. it can easily be the slowest phase in the game if every model has bespoke melee weaponry.
Dudeface wrote: I'm curious why all the veterans in your army, magically carry the exact same loadout with 0 personal preference. "Welcome to the Blood Reapers, here we only craft combi plasmas and powerfists!"
I can just see the scene. A few Blood Reapers are standing around waiting for the next raid. Sgt. Ralph comes in with a new recruit. "Alright son let's get you equipped so you can go out on the next raid."
"Thanks Sarge. What do I need?"
"Well you get this wonderful bolt pistol and chain sword combo. It's been a favorite for years."
"Wow! Thanks again Sarge. By the way what's the next raid going to be against?"
"I'm pretty sure I heard the Captain say something about some lousy bug ship that's getting to close to our turf."
"Gee Sarge, I'm not sure that I want to go toe to claw with some tyranids. Can I have a heavy bolter like that guy over there?"
"Sorry son. we're all individualist here. Fred already has a heavy weapon. Charlie over there has a special weapon. I have a plasma pistol and power axe. So I'm afraid you'll have to make do."
blood reaper wrote: Interesting that effort converting miniatures doesn't matter if they don't meet a certain nebulous idea of the lore. What does the personal preference of plastic figures matter? Are you telling me Alpha Legion, with their doctrine of 'everyone looks the same and dresses to avoid drawing attention' would have unique weapon load outs for every member?
Maybe you should look at actual AL models, not your straw fanfictiony ones. Both HH and 40K. Unless you're telling me Armillus Dynat, Alpha Legion Praetor, and Autilon Skor look the same and have identical loadouts?
And as a brief question; what if you had it that your Chaos Space Marines were well organised renegades who followed in fairly classic legion traditions of concentrating weapons.
Seeing they don't have their homeworlds or subject forge worlds anymore, it's about as valid question as asking what if they were still loyalist or pretending to be one of the current chapters.
Incidentally, in all 3 cases the answer would be the same - you'd use Codex: SM, because that's what would fit their fluff and organization. Not try to invent some laughable excuse for minmaxing and expect people to just roll with it. And hell, why stop here? What if they all had looted custodes gear? Or stole eldar wraith technology and all had wraith bodies? Or local necron lord fell in love with them and gifted them a truck of phase swords?
Is this serious argument of a troll? but fine, let's unpack these photos. On the first one, you see a few soviet soldiers holding SMGs. You know, your basic, light infantry weapon. Yes, they also hold a few captured german guns, but they are notably not in combat, not on the front lines, not using them, and for all we know it's just a propaganda photo showing off spoils of battle.
The second photo is even more comical, as it's just a squad armed with STGs. Your basic assault rifle, light infantry weapon, again. You can see they don't all hold panzerfausts, HMGs like MG-42, sniper rifles, flamethrowers or whatever gak that even Hollywood would call stupid and over the top, that you are trying to call 'sensible'. Gee, I wonder why?
There is this fantasy in the heads of certain people that unless you leap through several hoops and have some kind of specialised approach towards something, you didn't really achieve that goal. Ambushing an enemy unit with a mass of anti-tank weapons isn't legitimate; you have to fight him with three different units, most of whom can't harm him.
No, there is this comical fantasy in the heads of munchkin min-maxers that looks, fluff, realism, and all that silly stuff don't count, must WAAAC harder. Who cares about dumb gak like weapon costs and ammo logistics, your renegades on the run MUST be regimented like IG, pee on fluff, logic, and common sense, because anyone who follows these is [insert whatever slur for people who like setting/balance is 'in' this week], eh?
But hey, feel free to prove me wrong and show how US army, richest organization on the planet, gives every soldier in basic platoon a Javelin anti-tank launcher and two heavy machine guns, one for each arm. What? They don't? Maybe you should write them angry mail saying how dumb they are because they just give them something "wimpy" like M4 glorified SMG, and without a grenade launcher at that
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
The B&C poster only specifically called out power fists and chainfists as not being Accursed Weapons. I assume that the "one model per 5 can replace their boltgun with one additional Accursed Weapon" is meant to represent paired lightning claws, so lightning claws are Accursed Weapons for Chosen and Terminators. It's only a guess though.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
Powerfist / claws are probably for the unit champion only looking at the sprue quantities. Then all the all various weapon types (chain weapons, sword, axe, etc) fall under the same profile.
The loadout GW has been showing for the Chosen has the Champion with a power maul, 1 Chosen with Dual Claws, 1 with Powerfist, and 2 other members, so we know that most likely isn't the case.
There’s honestly nothing stopping gw from making kits where you can arm everyone with every option, or at the least making them multipart to the point where you can have a wargear kit. There’s also nothing stopping em from making things cost sub-5 points to balance them more.
blood reaper wrote: Interesting that effort converting miniatures doesn't matter if they don't meet a certain nebulous idea of the lore. What does the personal preference of plastic figures matter? Are you telling me Alpha Legion, with their doctrine of 'everyone looks the same and dresses to avoid drawing attention' would have unique weapon load outs for every member?
Maybe you should look at actual AL models, not your straw fanfictiony ones. Both HH and 40K. Unless you're telling me Armillus Dynat, Alpha Legion Praetor, and Autilon Skor look the same and have identical loadouts?
And as a brief question; what if you had it that your Chaos Space Marines were well organised renegades who followed in fairly classic legion traditions of concentrating weapons.
Seeing they don't have their homeworlds or subject forge worlds anymore, it's about as valid question as asking what if they were still loyalist or pretending to be one of the current chapters.
Incidentally, in all 3 cases the answer would be the same - you'd use Codex: SM, because that's what would fit their fluff and organization. Not try to invent some laughable excuse for minmaxing and expect people to just roll with it. And hell, why stop here? What if they all had looted custodes gear? Or stole eldar wraith technology and all had wraith bodies? Or local necron lord fell in love with them and gifted them a truck of phase swords?
Is this serious argument of a troll? but fine, let's unpack these photos. On the first one, you see a few soviet soldiers holding SMGs. You know, your basic, light infantry weapon. Yes, they also hold a few captured german guns, but they are notably not in combat, not on the front lines, not using them, and for all we know it's just a propaganda photo showing off spoils of battle.
The second photo is even more comical, as it's just a squad armed with STGs. Your basic assault rifle, light infantry weapon, again. You can see they don't all hold panzerfausts, HMGs like MG-42, sniper rifles, flamethrowers or whatever gak that even Hollywood would call stupid and over the top, that you are trying to call 'sensible'. Gee, I wonder why?
There is this fantasy in the heads of certain people that unless you leap through several hoops and have some kind of specialised approach towards something, you didn't really achieve that goal. Ambushing an enemy unit with a mass of anti-tank weapons isn't legitimate; you have to fight him with three different units, most of whom can't harm him.
No, there is this comical fantasy in the heads of munchkin min-maxers that looks, fluff, realism, and all that silly stuff don't count, must WAAAC harder. Who cares about dumb gak like weapon costs and ammo logistics, your renegades on the run MUST be regimented like IG, pee on fluff, logic, and common sense, because anyone who follows these is [insert whatever slur for people who like setting/balance is 'in' this week], eh?
But hey, feel free to prove me wrong and show how US army, richest organization on the planet, gives every soldier in basic platoon a Javelin anti-tank launcher and two heavy machine guns, one for each arm. What? They don't? Maybe you should write them angry mail saying how dumb they are because they just give them something "wimpy" like M4 glorified SMG, and without a grenade launcher at that
I hate how forums are set up because they make organising responses an absolute nightmare.
I don't remember Chosen being officers. Are Chosen officers? Are Chosen Praetors? Why are you raising those examples?
Incidentally, the Alpha Legion Praetor models... are actually designed to look very similar to one another and even share the same kind of armour design as Alpharius. Funny that you didn't bring that up. Funny how you didn't bring up the equipment of Headhunters, either.
Chaos Space Marines do have home worlds in some cases. A number of warbands do have home bases.
The Space Marine codex doesn't have marks or Daemon Engines.
The point of the photos was in lieu of a wider description, but during the war both the Soviets and Germans concentrated certain units around specific weapons. I.e., Soviet troops made use of SMG companies, primarily armed with, you guessed it, SMGs. Volksgrenadiers on the other-hand primarily made use of STG-44s.
I don't recall saying fluff doesn't count. It seems very silly to suggest all Chaos Space Marines are just rabid weirdos with zero organisation. iirc the Death Guard, i.e., actual rabid weirdos, actually marched into the Eye of Terror in good order.
I can't imagine Javlein anti-tank launchers would be good against every opponent. Nor would HMGs. You'd struggle to keep up logistics or ammunition. I don't recall plasma guns being the same as these weapons?
Your post is full of strawman examples and dishonesty. Casuals have a serious case of scrub mentality.
Dudeface wrote: I'm curious why all the veterans in your army, magically carry the exact same loadout with 0 personal preference. "Welcome to the Blood Reapers, here we only craft combi plasmas and powerfists!"
I can just see the scene. A few Blood Reapers are standing around waiting for the next raid. Sgt. Ralph comes in with a new recruit. "Alright son let's get you equipped so you can go out on the next raid."
"Thanks Sarge. What do I need?"
"Well you get this wonderful bolt pistol and chain sword combo. It's been a favorite for years."
"Wow! Thanks again Sarge. By the way what's the next raid going to be against?"
"I'm pretty sure I heard the Captain say something about some lousy bug ship that's getting to close to our turf."
"Gee Sarge, I'm not sure that I want to go toe to claw with some tyranids. Can I have a heavy bolter like that guy over there?"
"Sorry son. we're all individualist here. Fred already has a heavy weapon. Charlie over there has a special weapon. I have a plasma pistol and power axe. So I'm afraid you'll have to make do."
Now that's CAAC.
This is why I made a unit of guys all armed with combi-bolters. Firstly, I think it looks cool, secondly, it puts out a lot of shots and can kill swarming units very quickly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: How to spot WAACers, they say they're not WAAC but blame "CAAC" for all their problems
I don't recall blaming you for anything since you uh, don't actually have any influence on the game. I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
lord_blackfang wrote: How to spot WAACers, they say they're not WAAC but blame "CAAC" for all their problems
It is useless for any discourse to set up people as binary choices. It does your argument no good, especially since no one here has blamed people who enjoy casuals for causing problems. If anything the issue is pointed at how GW has set up the entire thing and how problematic it is in various ways. At worst people have argued that casuals might not see the issue for what it is, but no one is blamed.
I would, however, suggest that people might enjoy Kill Team much better if they really want every weapon to be unique and get the feeling you are a roving warband. I do believe this is a big source of contention as 40k in 2nd edition was much more of a skirmish game than its current iterations, and I get the feeling people miss the more RP aspect that 2nd edition had.
I know I enjoy KT for that reason. You are closer to your squad unit than in a large 40k game.
lord_blackfang wrote: How to spot WAACers, they say they're not WAAC but blame "CAAC" for all their problems
It is useless for any discourse to set up people as binary choices. It does your argument no good, especially since no one here has blamed people who enjoy casuals for causing problems. If anything the issue is pointed at how GW has set up the entire thing and how problematic it is in various ways. At worst people have argued that casuals might not see the issue for what it is, but no one is blamed.
I should say that while I do massively dislike CAAC attitudes, I do not blame CAAC for the faults of the game. Incidentally it is telling of a 'CAAC' attitude that someone who has an interest in bringing strong lists is 'WAAC' (back in the day, WAAC did not mean competitive, but meant people who lied, cheated, and actively subverted the game to win).
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
Honestly I thought B&C had kinda died off a long time ago. I remember back in the day I would visit there, and here, most days, but I stopped going there cos it was all just space marines (which was kind of dull, even though they are my primary interest). A quick check of traffic says it has 1/3 of the traffic of Dakka, which is surprisingly high imo.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
blood reaper wrote: I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Newsflash, meta chasing is called that because it's something you have to do perpetually, you don't catch the meta and then play the same OP gak forever.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Appended the lot in a spoiler for continuity, but let's just handle this:
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
At no point have I argued this.
You play the game primarily detached from fluff to try and win. You built your Terminators with the "optimal loadout". You're upset at losing this as the proposed new rules are less effective. You blame this on "CAAC" mentality.
You're literally annoyed that you cannot spam the optimal build as to gain advantages over others. The exact thing you claimed you didn't argue for, but are more than happy to a use and manipulate. I'm not being dishonest here, you're just lacking a lot of self awareness.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
Okay, that sounds less crazy. But if they're going to combine some weapons, I still feel they would do it across the board, or at least for the whole army. It is weird and confusing if some units have separate rules for their power swords and axes and some don't. Makes mockery of WYSIWYG, really.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
Okay, that sounds less crazy. But if they're going to combine some weapons, I still feel they would do it across the board, or at least for the whole army. It is weird and confusing if some units have separate rules for their power swords and axes and some don't. Makes mockery of WYSIWYG, really.
It's a throw back to 3rd and I'm OK with it tbh for the most part, I think I could even get behind some magical profiles for havocs to get round the mixed sprues.
blood reaper wrote: I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Newsflash, meta chasing is called that because it's something you have to do perpetually, you don't catch the meta and then play the same OP gak forever.
All chain axes was literally the base load of Chaos Terminators. All power weapons has been an option for Terminators since 3rd edition. All combi-weapons has also been the same.
A change in the meta would not bother me; the models would be valid. If plasma guns became junk, so what? The models would still be usable. They would still be legal. I could still use them in the game The problem is the models are no longer valid, and can't be used in game.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Appended the lot in a spoiler for continuity, but let's just handle this:
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
At no point have I argued this.
You play the game primarily detached from fluff to try and win. You built your Terminators with the "optimal loadout". You're upset at losing this as the proposed new rules are less effective. You blame this on "CAAC" mentality.
You're literally annoyed that you cannot spam the optimal build as to gain advantages over others. The exact thing you claimed you didn't argue for, but are more than happy to a use and manipulate. I'm not being dishonest here, you're just lacking a lot of self awareness.
My upset is that the models aren't valid anymore.
If they weren't effective, then it'd be a mistake I'm willing to concede and I wouldn't care too much. In fact I wouldn't mind at all, because ultimately I could still use the (I still use my Chaos Space Marine units even if they have suboptimal builds, because the models are still legal).
The problem is I literally can't use the squad as is.
As I stated before when I explained how I described myself as a player, I do not think, casual or competitive, figures should become illegal. Under any circumstances.
(For the record; I have numerous models that are no longer very competitive, and I still use them.)
Crimson wrote: What was the profile of the accursed weapons? I think it was posted, but I can't find it now...
S+1, AP-3, D1, +1 attack. Agreed it's going to be weird if this only applies to Chosen and Terminators. Wouldn't put it past them to do similar to Aspiring Champions in the other squad types if this is true.
I don't hate the idea of "accursed weapons" being a catch-all mix of different weapon types given a common profile for ease of gameplay. In fact I rather love it.
What I hate though is that this wasn't done for plague marines, black templar sword brethren, or a number of other units that have gross datasheets as a result of the obscene number of different weapons they can be equipped with in very specific quantities. While it makes for ugly datasheets, it does allow those armies a degree of greater flexibility/optimization/capability by allowing players to pick the weapon mixes they want that are conducive to their armies needs, instead of sticking most of the squad with a genericized weapon that leaves them no room to efficiently answer certain specific threats.
What I also hate is that I'm not convinced that this decision will stick - I fully expect that a lot of us are going to build Chosen and Terminator squads based on the Accursed weapon paradigm, only for GW to pull a fast one on us and go back to a pure WYSIWYG approach in their next codex 2-3 years from now which will invalidate our squads and force us to buy and build additional kits to field decent squads again.
It would be nice if GW would do some confidence building and remediate things like plague marine, sword brethren, etc. profiles via a balance dataslate so that these units follow a similar paradigm, so that we know that this is the approach of the future and not just another one-off thing that they are going to hit CSM with and then abandon, shortchanging CSM players from being able to build units with the same flexibility as those of other factions.
So is a lightning claw now classed as an accursed weapon, do we think? Or are they gone from the CSM terminators now? Would be properly miffed if the latter, I'm literally just finishing painting my unit that I built back in 6th edition - 2 of the guys have lightning claws...
It would be nice if GW would do some confidence building and remediate things like plague marine, sword brethren, etc. profiles via a balance dataslate so that these units follow a similar paradigm, so that we know that this is the approach of the future and not just another one-off thing that they are going to hit CSM with and then abandon, shortchanging CSM players from being able to build units with the same flexibility as those of other factions.
I mean regarding longevity, it wouldn't matter either way.
10th Edition is probably a year away and every edition has the very real possibility that, assuming GW doesn't do another 8E reset, they can still suddenly change their mind and reverse course on some change the had doubled down on only months prior.
And I know GW works far in advance but I somewhat wonder if Accursed Weapons we're their kneejerk reaction to the intense community negativity around the 9E DG 'dex and we're only suddenly feeling the effect now.
Crispy78 wrote: So is a lightning claw now classed as an accursed weapon, do we think? Or are they gone from the CSM terminators now? Would be properly miffed if the latter, I'm literally just finishing painting my unit that I built back in 6th edition - 2 of the guys have lightning claws...
Sadly, that there is an option for a model to exchange the Combi-bolter for a 2nd Accursed Weapon suggests that the Claws are Accursed Weapons, too.
The problem is I literally can't use the squad as is.
As I stated before when I explained how I described myself as a player, I do not think, casual or competitive, figures should become illegal. Under any circumstances.
(For the record; I have numerous models that are no longer very competitive, and I still use them.)
You are correct that you cannot use the squad as is anymore, but there is no merit behind the claim that the models aren't valid any more. The model load out still seems to work fine as an accursed weapon plus combination weapon. You just can't take entire units of identical load outs now. The unit compisition is invalid now, but it doesn't affect the models themselves.
The problem is I literally can't use the squad as is.
As I stated before when I explained how I described myself as a player, I do not think, casual or competitive, figures should become illegal. Under any circumstances.
(For the record; I have numerous models that are no longer very competitive, and I still use them.)
You are correct that you cannot use the squad as is anymore, but there is no merit behind the claim that the models aren't valid any more. The model load out still seems to work fine as an accursed weapon plus combination weapon. You just can't take entire units of identical load outs now. The unit compisition is invalid now, but it doesn't affect the models themselves.
"Yes, the models aren't invalid - if you just buy more models." I would have to buy *five boxes* of Terminators to still be able to make use of all those figures, which to me seems a bit absurd. It would also be very expensive.
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?
By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.
No problem. I'm pretty invested in this having played CSM for 20 years with my only other army being my now Legends R&H. And yeah, Terminators are getting hit with a double whammy if this is true: consolidated profiles and jigsaw "you get what's in the kit" rules. The loadout restrictions definitely hurt the worst. Being able to specialize better has always been a thing for Chaos Terminators compared to their loyalist counterparts. We can still get more combi-weapons than them, but those melee weapon restrictions? One chainfist? Really?
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?
By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.
No problem. I'm pretty invested in this having played CSM for 20 years with my only other army being my now Legends R&H. And yeah, Terminators are getting hit with a double whammy if this is true: consolidated profiles and jigsaw "you get what's in the kit" rules. The loadout restrictions definitely hurt the worst. Being able to specialize better has always been a thing for Chaos Terminators compared to their loyalist counterparts. We can still get more combi-weapons than them, but those melee weapon restrictions? One chainfist? Really?
I do appreciate your work in bringing the rumors over from B+C, but gosh every new rumor about these loadouts is worse than the last.
I don't want to get into the argument of WAAC vs CAAC because it's pedantic and pointless. People play their game the way they want to play it.
A WAAC player will have all their terminators loaded out with powerfists and combi-plasmas because that's the most cost effective way of bringing them to the table.
A CAAC player will have all their terminators loaded out with powerfists and combi-plasmas because they like the way that a uniform squad looks when they put it on the table.
A middle-ground player will have all their terminators loaded out with powerfists and combi-plasmas because they like the combination of effectiveness and ease of play.
All are valid ways of loading out their terminators and all can be rightfully upset that the money they spent in kitting out their terminators now feels wasted, that they have to shelve most of those models and/or buy a new set to fit these new rules, the only sense of which comes from the fact that there *are not enough options in the box* to kit out your models like this any more.
There's two sides to this coin. One, rising kit prices makes it more and more difficult to get the bits. GW also doesn't want people buying from 3rd party bits sellers (there's a legality involving it being GW product but bits sellers not posting the caveat that these are not for kids or something like that and therefore GW could still legally be on the hook despite a 3rd party selling the product or something idk). They also don't want people complaining about having to buy multiple boxes of a kit to complete a loadout.
Remember the situation with the Havocs and the Reaper Chaincannon? On the one hand, GW should have added at least one more reaper chaincannon into the kit (or, stunningly, maybe not include that weapon at all and save the sprue space for another option). On the other hand, people were LIVID that you'd have to buy 4 boxes of Havocs to complete a squad of 4 Reaper Chaincannons.Instead of simply adding more to the kit (as by this point these kits have already been designed and printed for the past few years), they tailor the rules to try to make everyone happy and don't make anyone happy.
As it is, glad I didn't buy any terminators and probably won't be touching chosen. I don't want to build a loadout only to get burned by GW when the second 9th ed codex comes out that finally gives Chaos Marines the same t5 that space marines inevitably get.
Edit:
The benefit, after thinking and chatting a bit more on this, is that you can make the squad look however the feth you want and the rules for most of the weapons will still be the same. A squad all with chainswords will be just as potent and competitively viable as a squad with all power swords, since the profiles are the same. Want to make each guy individual and stand out? Fantastic, go for it.
Also consider the benefit to new players. So many times you see "What's the best loadout for X or Y?" And instead of going through all of the mathhammer, you can simply tell them "Make your dudes however you think is coolest, all the weapons use the same profile, so they can look however you want. The only different one is the power fist, which is slower but hits harder." Much easier for people to digest.
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?
By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.
They kind of simplified a lot of the melee weapons like they have been doing already, but as I suggested before they will not touch ranged profiles.
What I hate though is that this wasn't done for plague marines, black templar sword brethren, or a number of other units that have gross datasheets as a result of the obscene number of different weapons they can be equipped with in very specific quantities. While it makes for ugly datasheets, it does allow those armies a degree of greater flexibility/optimization/capability by allowing players to pick the weapon mixes they want that are conducive to their armies needs, instead of sticking most of the squad with a genericized weapon that leaves them no room to efficiently answer certain specific threats.
As someone who has played Death Guard almost exclusively in 9th I would have loooved for them to consolidate the weapons for Plague Marines and Blightlords. Would have made my life much simpler and cheaper. Can't wait for an edition refresh and all the combi-weapons to be the hot gak. I'll end up with 100 Blightlords in a few years time(currently at 40).
On the upside they did consolidate melee weapons for Hybrids and Metamorphs which made life better. I am actually wondering if they are testing the waters with melee weapon consolidation in 9th since it appears so random.
The benefit, after thinking and chatting a bit more on this, is that you can make the squad look however the feth you want and the rules for most of the weapons will still be the same. A squad all with chainswords will be just as potent and competitively viable as a squad with all power swords, since the profiles are the same. Want to make each guy individual and stand out? Fantastic, go for it.
Also consider the benefit to new players. So many times you see "What's the best loadout for X or Y?" And instead of going through all of the mathhammer, you can simply tell them "Make your dudes however you think is coolest, all the weapons use the same profile, so they can look however you want. The only different one is the power fist, which is slower but hits harder." Much easier for people to digest.
Kind of what I've been saying earlier. I feel unified weapon profiles just opens the design floor for people who want to kitbash and personalize their minis to the max.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
So, this squad's Power Sword is a Power Sword, but this squad's Power Sword is an Accursed Weapons. And this squad's Lightning Claws are Lightning Claws, but this squad's Lightning Claws are Accursed Weapons.
Sure. Makes total (GW) sense.
I just cannot believe that this is their "solution" to sprue-constrained weapon options. Boggles the mind...
It is unfortunate that making the game easier for new players has come at the consequence of harming older players.
I would not have minded the consolidation of power swords and chain axes, since those weapons aren't really meaningfully different at this stage (iirc, they aren't different at all actually). Lightning claws? A bit less, but ultimately, the issue is that you have consolidated things (good) while taking other things away. New players 'benefit' exponentially at the cost of other players.
I would also not have had issues with unified weapon options. The game would become a lot more bland, but to be quite honest, I would not have cared that much. It is the invalidity of the miniatures which annoys me.
There were other ways to fix this; they would've taken a lot more effort and forced a general revision of how sprues are made. GW took an easy route, and the easy route comes at the expense of many people. I am completely opposed to options becoming invalid, and it is annoying this happened.
Incidentally the squad can't actually be modelled with everything in the box with no restrictions - something people should actually remember. You can't take both a Reaper Auto Cannon and Heavy Flamer.
blood reaper wrote: It is unfortunate that making the game easier for new players has come at the consequence of harming older players.
I'm not sure that this is even easier for new players. It is pretty confusing if similar looking weapon has different rules depending on what squad has it.
Some consolidation of weapon profiles makes sense, but it should happen in coherent and holistic manner.
blood reaper wrote: It is unfortunate that making the game easier for new players has come at the consequence of harming older players.
I'm not sure that this is even easier for new players. It is pretty confusing if similar looking weapon has different rules depending on what squad has it.
Some consolidation of weapon profiles makes sense, but it should happen in coherent and holistic manner.
I am basically playing devils advocate when I say "Sure, it's easier for new players" because I can't be bothered arguing that point.
There were other ways to fix this; they would've taken a lot more effort and forced a general revision of how sprues are made. GW took an easy route, and the easy route comes at the expense of many people. I am completely opposed to options becoming invalid, and it is annoying this happened.
Isn't this Termie kit only a few years old, deep into the "no model no rules" era, and more or less the same content as the previous one? GW must not perceive this to be a problem or they would have fixed it then.
There were other ways to fix this; they would've taken a lot more effort and forced a general revision of how sprues are made. GW took an easy route, and the easy route comes at the expense of many people. I am completely opposed to options becoming invalid, and it is annoying this happened.
Isn't this Termie kit only a few years old, deep into the "no model no rules" era, and more or less the same content as the previous one? GW must not perceive this to be a problem or they would have fixed it then.
Well sprues are usually made several years ahead of time, but its clear something prompted the change. Needless to say, GW doesn't see many things as issues, which is one of the biggest issues with GW.
In second edition, you could give all your blood claws a power fist and a chainsword, or pretty much anything else you wanted. It looked great. Some say the Blood Claw Sergeant was the best mini of his generation, and I can't officially disagree. They say he could parry attacks with his cheap chainsword and smash face with the fist. Didn't even attack last. I think Death Company were in a similar position. It looked amazing, that's all I cared about. Then, apparently in the next edition there was a big shakeup, and options were drastically limited? And rules were flipped all around? My point being, I'm sure that generated a lot of spilled ink and bitter tears for you guys back then too. And life carried on as usual for the rest of us : D
Does anyone remember that these are rumours and not facts? Why are you all getting so massively bent out of shape acting like these are 100% confirmed Codex rules. Be concerned but it's not like the world is ending, jeez.
JWBS wrote: In second edition, you could give all your blood claws a power fist and a chainsword, or pretty much anything else you wanted. It looked great. Some say the Blood Claw Sergeant was the best mini of his generation, and I can't officially disagree. They say he could parry attacks with his cheap chainsword and smash face with the fist. Didn't even attack last. I think Death Company were in a similar position. It looked amazing, that's all I cared about. Then, apparently in the next edition there was a big shakeup, and options were drastically limited? And rules were flipped all around? My point being, I'm sure that generated a lot of spilled ink and bitter tears for you guys back then too. And life carried on as usual for the rest of us : D
I don't understand what the point is here.
"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"
imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.
I'm just blown away at the idea that Chaos are getting Jervis'd. Again.
It's enough to make me not even care about the new 'Nid book.
Gert wrote: Does anyone remember that these are rumours and not facts? Why are you all getting so massively bent out of shape acting like these are 100% confirmed Codex rules. Be concerned but it's not like the world is ending, jeez.
And you've arrived to try and shut down yet another conversation. Shocker.
How dare we discuss rumours in a News & Rumours sub-forum, right?
Gert wrote: Does anyone remember that these are rumours and not facts? Why are you all getting so massively bent out of shape acting like these are 100% confirmed Codex rules. Be concerned but it's not like the world is ending, jeez.
And you've arrived to try and shut down yet another conversation. Shocker.
How dare we discuss rumours in a News & Rumours sub-forum, right?
A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.
"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"
imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.
My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.
"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"
imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.
My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.
So what, because people being annoyed didn't change anything means people shouldn't be annoyed? What exactly is your point? It's wrong to be annoyed?
There's a bizarre "cutting off your own nose to spite your face" sentiment in the 40k community that never ceases to amaze me.
I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.
JWBS wrote: I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.
The snide nature of this post is so thick you could spread it on toast.
JWBS wrote: The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said.
The root of suffering, in this instance, is GW. There is simply no reason for this change outside of their asinine no model/no rule stance having a head-on collision with their penchant for changing horses mid-race and having a paradigm shift in how they do rules.
I thought it'd happen with the 'Nid 'Dex, but apparently it's Chaos players who get to bend over.
(Again, operating under the core assumption that all of this is true)
JWBS wrote: Not even remotely snide. If you want to see it as an attack then that's on you, frankly I don't care ; )
Because it is an attack. You're being snide. I'm annoyed that I have effectively wasted a bunch of money on models which I can't really use now. It's a problem I'm annoyed because what? I'm attached to the idea of not losing money?
The Buddha also taught to measure attachments, since they could not be removed. You cannot just 'assert' mental states.
JWBS wrote: I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.
JWBS wrote: I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.
Why even play 40k in the first place then.
Life is like a river; sometimes people dump a lot of sewage into it. I forgot where I was going with this metaphor.
blood reaper wrote: A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.
It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.
"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"
imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.
My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.
So what, because people being annoyed didn't change anything means people shouldn't be annoyed? What exactly is your point? It's wrong to be annoyed?
There's a bizarre "cutting off your own nose to spite your face" sentiment in the 40k community that never ceases to amaze me.
I mean, people feel that way about a lot of things. Things magnitudes more important then silly little plastic soldiers. And to be clear, I also think it's strange. But it's also easier to relativize and try to downplay things that displease you or others. If everything is just a drop of water in the sea, there's no reason to get worked up.
But I think it's important to criticize what you can and make it known. I mean, if people never complained about their hobbies we wouldn't have Pathfinder now !
I should probably clarify that I don't give a flying toss about this controversy. I'm not a gamer. If the models were terrible? Or if they were ridiculously overpriced, or some other shittery had occoured? Yes I'd be interested. The only reason I entered the fray was because all these complex, micro managed wargear options reminded me of my awesome first incarnation Blood Claws and DC (and all the other vanilla jump pack assault marines I painted, which you could also give six hand flamers, two power swords, one power axe and a plasma pistol per squad, if you liked the idea of doing that), and it amused me to think of it.
"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"
imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.
My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.
So what, because people being annoyed didn't change anything means people shouldn't be annoyed? What exactly is your point? It's wrong to be annoyed?
There's a bizarre "cutting off your own nose to spite your face" sentiment in the 40k community that never ceases to amaze me.
I mean, people feel that way about a lot of things. Things magnitudes more important then silly little plastic soldiers. And to be clear, I also think it's strange. But it's also easier to relativize and try to downplay things that displease you or others. If everything is just a drop of water in the sea, there's no reason to get worked up.
But I think it's important to criticize what you can and make it known. I mean, if people never complained about their hobbies we wouldn't have Pathfinder now !
Yeah people do, and in this case I feel annoyed with this. I also feel annoyed with climate change, racism, etc. I think you are allowed to be annoyed with things. It's true I can relativize this, but at the end of the day I wargame weekly, I pour a lot of time and effort into it, and I've been doing so for well over 10 years now. The change annoys me. Now people can say "It's wrong to get upset", well I'm sorry. I'm invested. Not just emotionally either; financially too!
blood reaper wrote: A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.
It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.
Yep. That sounds like Dakka business as usual to me.
JWBS wrote: I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.
Why even play 40k in the first place then.
Life is like a river; sometimes people dump a lot of sewage into it. I forgot where I was going with this metaphor.
A wise man once said "A flute with no holes is not a flute and a doughnut with no hole is a Danish."
blood reaper wrote: A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.
It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.
Yep. That sounds like Dakka business as usual to me.
blood reaper wrote: A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.
It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.
Yep. That sounds like Dakka business as usual to me.
Precisely why i love this place.
If this was reddit I'd apply a !remind me for a month, and when the codex comes out and has these rules confirmed, I'd drop a big stinking wet "I told you so", validating all of our rage.
And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".
A big part of this hobby is complaining. It was born in the UK after all.
Yeah people do, and in this case I feel annoyed with this. I also feel annoyed with climate change, racism, etc. I think you are allowed to be annoyed with things. It's true I can relativize this, but at the end of the day I wargame weekly, I pour a lot of time and effort into it, and I've been doing so for well over 10 years now. The change annoys me. Now people can say "It's wrong to get upset", well I'm sorry. I'm invested. Not just emotionally either; financially too!
I feel like there was an issue with the way I worded things because I couldn't agree more with you
JWBS wrote: I should probably clarify that I don't give a flying toss about this controversy. I'm not a gamer. If the models were terrible? Or if they were ridiculously overpriced, or some other shittery had occoured? Yes I'd be interested. The only reason I entered the fray was because all these complex, micro managed wargear options reminded me of my awesome first incarnation Blood Claws and DC (and all the other vanilla jump pack assault marines I painted, which you could also give six hand flamers, two power swords, one power axe and a plasma pistol per squad, if you liked the idea of doing that), and it amused me to think of it.
”It doesn’t affect me, therefore there’s no point in complaining about it,” is not an uncommon take, but it ain’t a good one.
drbored wrote: And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".
drbored wrote: And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".
Us being wrong about this is a good thing.
But I doubt we will be.
It is looking more likely the more we see. Though, as aggravating as the changes to Terminators are, I still find the removal of Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics more troubling and circumspect. And I'd still like to get an explanation of what exactly "Unmarked units gain some support from custom traits" means.
JWBS wrote: I should probably clarify that I don't give a flying toss about this controversy. I'm not a gamer. If the models were terrible? Or if they were ridiculously overpriced, or some other shittery had occoured? Yes I'd be interested. The only reason I entered the fray was because all these complex, micro managed wargear options reminded me of my awesome first incarnation Blood Claws and DC (and all the other vanilla jump pack assault marines I painted, which you could also give six hand flamers, two power swords, one power axe and a plasma pistol per squad, if you liked the idea of doing that), and it amused me to think of it.
”It doesn’t affect me, therefore there’s no point in complaining about it,” is not an uncommon take, but it ain’t a good one.
Sorry, I forgot to add my usual disclaimer that these are my own personal views and that I do, in fact, understand that my own personal views are indeed my own personal views and that other views potentially exist and that these views may be just as valid, or more so, than my own (I can't believe I keep neglecting to do this! I think it's because it's so blindingly obvious that I just forget it could ever need to be said. Consider me adequately chastised).
That was my response to him insinuating that I think (let alone said, at any point) ”It doesn’t affect me, therefore there’s no point in complaining about it."
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wow... I'd forgotten about the removal of Cult Troops.
Man... it's never good to be a Chaos player. Serves us right for choosing an NPC race I 'spose.
We've been paying the price for the 3.5 codex ever since we got to 5th edition. Four editions in a row of GW not knowing what to do with us, not following through on completing a line of models, giving us half-baked rules, trimming us down, bloating us up, only to sweep the rug out with edition changes while our old models get older and our new models remove beloved options.
If the rumors of all of this stuff are true, there will be some silver lining. The legion traits are the best I've seen in a very long time. Marks coming back, Icons becoming better, getting a superdoctrine, getting thematic stratagems across the board... there's some good stuff in there. Getting a new warpsmith and getting Chosen models AT ALL is a positive for collectors and painters, and if the rest of the rumors are true and we FINALLY get a box of cultists that's not just 5 push-fit cultists in a random assortment of weapons, that'll be a huge deal. Similarly, new Possessed and Chaos Bikers would go a long way to knocking away a lot of the oldest kits in the line, and we can only pray that they don't do to Chaos bikers what they did to Primaris bikers.
It's not rocket science. Chaos isn't Eldar. There aren't 10 different aspect warriors to update. There's literally 2 cult troops, bikes, possessed, and cultists. The rest of the range is pretty solid, setting aside the age of anything with a rhino-chassis, and the last update getting new CSM, some new leaders, Havocs, and a couple other things was great.
The issue is the follow-through. We still don't have a separate box of Obliterators, you can still only get them in the start collecting, and god forbid you want more than 2. We are still waiting on World Eaters and Emperor's Children, almost, what, 6 years after Magnus hit the scene and GW started down this path of giving us Chaos Primarchs and separating the god-aligned legions? It's a long time to wait. Hobbyists have passed on from this world in the time that it's taken GW to get to even this point. It's simultaneously infuriating and keeping me perpetually hopeful that I can continue living to see the day that we get a new Noise Marine kit, the major faction that got me into this emperor-forsaken hobby in the first place.
So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.
So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.
otoh, Legion Chaos marines literally used to all fall under the banner of "Chaos marines, but you get to choose the colour". IW were silver, BL were black, but they all had the same stuff. We have come some way since then, but no faction will ever rival loyalist Astartes for breadth and depth and that will absolutely never change.
So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.
otoh, Legion Chaos marines literally used to all fall under the banner of "Chaos marines, but you get to choose the colour". IW were silver, BL were black, but they all had the same stuff. We have come some way since then, but no faction will ever rival loyalist Astartes for breadth and depth and that will absolutely never change.
True, we've come a long way, but I wouldn't want Chaos Marines to become the same bloated mess that Space Marines are.
I'd be content with similar treatment to a codex like Tau just got (a rethinking of some of their core rules, how markerlights and overwatch works) or similar treatment to Drukhari (separate groupings of models that all come together in a 'however you want them' sort of fashion) or even like how Sisters of Battle went (a solid range of rules and units with quite good internal balance). Keep in mind that I'm talking about rules treatment here.
Instead, GW tries to tie us to a weird combination of the rules that Space Marines get, but where Space Marines and their various traits tend to be focused and fluffy, Chaos Marine traits are all over the place and disjointed, with GW never knowing how to combine us with the Daemons that we're supposed to be able to summon, or the difference between daemon engines and other vehicles, or making arbitrary separations on what gets legion traits and what doesn't. The only other time I've seen an issue like this was when Genestealer Cult couldn't get cult traits for their vehicles, but that was rectified.
So, it's just been a mess for a long time, and the start of it was 5th edition. Chaos Marine fans have just not been uniformly content with what we've gotten and there's no way that GW can make us all happy.
Like, for me, either go with the daemon engines or don't. Either make Dark Mechanicum and move all the crazy daemon engines over there and leave the Chaos Marines with the classic vehicles and options to ally with Dark Mech, or get rid of the classic space marine vehicles and create some new daemon engines that give us a new transportation option or something. This mix where the models don't even look like they're from the same range and the rules apply sometimes to one vehicle and sometimes to one daemon engine is not cutting it for me.
My worry/hope is that cult troops are being taken out as weapons/stats/skills are changing and they have to ignore what is in cult books.
They are going full seperation.
The accursed weapons are an example of this. Maybe they will also, like SMs discover rending ammunition for their bolters on standard troops.
Maybe these guys will have traits on all their vehicles!!!!
I say hope/fear because I think they need that separation otherwise hands are tied by the cult codex and improvements can't be made, hence the hope.
The fear is exact same thing, but means my DG are really going to be left behind by the creep.
Doohicky wrote: My worry/hope is that cult troops are being taken out as weapons/stats/skills are changing and they have to ignore what is in cult books.
They are going full seperation.
The accursed weapons are an example of this. Maybe they will also, like SMs discover rending ammunition for their bolters on standard troops.
Maybe these guys will have traits on all their vehicles!!!!
I say hope/fear because I think they need that separation otherwise hands are tied by the cult codex and improvements can't be made, hence the hope.
The fear is exact same thing, but means my DG are really going to be left behind by the creep.
It would not surprise me if GW decided on full separation, because it feels like the kind of stupidity GW would engage in.
Incidentally it will reveal how lopsided and awkward the new codex will be. Imagine there being just one cult unit - it sounds so incredibly tacky and unfinished.
Of course, you can already play out the defences of this kind of thing, "Oh well, if you already have one unit of Rubricane, just buy another and an HQ. CONSOOM more!"
So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.
otoh, Legion Chaos marines literally used to all fall under the banner of "Chaos marines, but you get to choose the colour". IW were silver, BL were black, but they all had the same stuff. We have come some way since then, but no faction will ever rival loyalist Astartes for breadth and depth and that will absolutely never change.
Ok, you've established that you played 2nd and at some point stopped playing, and based on this statement I'm going to assume that you didn't play in late 3rd or 4th. Because if you had, you'd know that under the 3.5 Codex the Undivided Legions were definitely NOT just the same "but you get to choose the color". A Night Lords army was NOT the same as an Alpha Legion army, which was NOT the same as an Iron Warriors army, which was NOT the same as a Word Bearers army. They all played differently and though they used many of the same units they didn't take them in the same combinations or use them the same, and they DID have some unique units to themselves. The Legions have never had that much flavor and distinction since, and it was all achieved in a 80 page book. With codexes currently ballooning to 200+ page counts I think they could do it again if they just tried. The question is whether or not they will.
drbored wrote: And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".
Us being wrong about this is a good thing.
But I doubt we will be.
It is looking more likely the more we see. Though, as aggravating as the changes to Terminators are, I still find the removal of Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics more troubling and circumspect. And I'd still like to get an explanation of what exactly "Unmarked units gain some support from custom traits" means.
Could be that you can still put those units into the army, just that they are no longer part of the core codex. Having two separate datasheets for the same unit is just a source of controversy. A bit like how Nurgle Daemons are no longer in Death Guard or Brood Brother datasheets are no longer in GSC.
What is the probability that GW resists the urge to make Accursed Weapons kill their own bearers on a roll of 1?
That seems a bit harsh for a 'baby' Daemon Weapon. How about you just forfeit your attacks for that turn.
It seems a bit stupid for an army to rely on a weapon for 10,000 years that fails to work 1/6th of the time. I mean chaos may equal randomness but it does not equal rampant stupidity.
drbored wrote: And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".
Us being wrong about this is a good thing.
But I doubt we will be.
It is looking more likely the more we see. Though, as aggravating as the changes to Terminators are, I still find the removal of Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics more troubling and circumspect. And I'd still like to get an explanation of what exactly "Unmarked units gain some support from custom traits" means.
Could be that you can still put those units into the army, just that they are no longer part of the core codex. Having two separate datasheets for the same unit is just a source of controversy. A bit like how Nurgle Daemons are no longer in Death Guard or Brood Brother datasheets are no longer in GSC.
That's pretty much how they work according to the leak. They're not in the codex, but you can take them, but they don't get Legion traits. They do get the "Army trait" though, again, if the leak is correct.
What is the probability that GW resists the urge to make Accursed Weapons kill their own bearers on a roll of 1?
That seems a bit harsh for a 'baby' Daemon Weapon. How about you just forfeit your attacks for that turn.
It seems a bit stupid for an army to rely on a weapon for 10,000 years that fails to work 1/6th of the time. I mean chaos may equal randomness but it does not equal rampant stupidity.
Looks at Plasma guns
Yeah, that's totally stupid, no army in 40k would ever possible rely on something like that for thousands of years.
Granted, I forgot about plasma guns. Game wise most people either use them with a reroll or, until recently only used them with positve to hit modifiers. However, I would still differentiate the Accursed weapon from a plasma weapon due to the fact that if your plasma gun doesn't work either you're dead or your at least out of immediate harm's way. With the accursed weapon if it doesn't work then your in melee with nothing but a large stick in your hands.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Isnt that literally the entry from the current Codex? Always chance for an unfortunate change.
Yes, which 100% matches the rumor about the Accursed Weapons. Said the box would come with the old sheet, and the codex would have the Accursed Weapons profiles.
Would be a damn shame. Going from being able to take a slew of special weapons and heavy weapons to...
Well, some glorified bolter-carriers with maybe two combi-bolters.
Oh well.
The final nail in the coffin for me will be updated Chaos Bikers. If that part of the rumor is true, then I imagine the nu-GW will strip them down of all options and turn them into the same thing as Primaris Outriders.
I can dream that maybe they'll at least give the champion in a Chaos Biker unit a special weapon, but... well, at this point, I'm not counting on it.
aracersss wrote: How reliable is the guy making up these "codex rumors"?
About as reliable as any rumour outlet, which is to say: not at all. They have been posting on a thread on B&C and are apparently in contact with someone who has at least seen the codex. Not much more info is known.
aracersss wrote: How reliable is the guy making up these "codex rumors"?
About as reliable as any rumour outlet, which is to say: not at all. They have been posting on a thread on B&C and are apparently in contact with someone who has at least seen the codex. Not much more info is known.
Thier source has a playtest copy from what I can make out. In theory at least, could be made up, but something to discuss and ruminate over is better than nothing.
aracersss wrote: How reliable is the guy making up these "codex rumors"?
About as reliable as any rumour outlet, which is to say: not at all. They have been posting on a thread on B&C and are apparently in contact with someone who has at least seen the codex. Not much more info is known.
Thier source has a playtest copy from what I can make out. In theory at least, could be made up, but something to discuss and ruminate over is better than nothing.
Yeah, I enjoy discussing these things, as it helps pass the time between releases and reveals.
It could all prove to be bunk, but time will tell.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Isnt that literally the entry from the current Codex? Always chance for an unfortunate change.
It has the Astartes Chainsword being the only difference.
Actually, they got the Astartes Chainsword when Codex: Space Marines came out and a number of other common weapons (heavy bolter, meltagun, etc...) were updated game-wide.
Which, really, makes CSM not getting their second wound yet even MORE aggravating.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Which, really, makes CSM not getting their second wound yet even MORE aggravating.
Every boon from the Gods of Chaos comes with an equal bane to remind us that they are not on our side, and that it is we who serve them:
You can have your second wound, but to do so you must give up all your cult troops and weapon individuality. You will forever be shackled with a sword or a hammer or a lightning claw that for some reason all act in the same manner, all whilst the Adeptus Astartes shoot at you with 23 different types of Bolter.
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
So if this follows the kit -- where are the lightning claws? I'm guessing the mace and axe are "accursed"?
There's also only two power fists - not three. Poweraxe?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote: Here is the Datasheet from the Box. Would be a horrible bait and switch after this datasheet if they went with the accursed weapon non-sense.
So, exactly the same as present. Still W1...lol...
Greetings! Welcome to dakka, though I see you're not exactly new, but just not a frequent poster here. You're going to be absolutely bombarded with questions. Let me start!
1: Can you possibly elaborate on "Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits"? Does that mean that there are specific custom traits that benefit Unmarked units? Or can they gain those traits similar to how Chosen can, only by paying points instead of for free like Chosen?
2: Your source said that the Night Lords trait doesn't stack. Is it possible that only applies to the +1CA, and the leadership debuff does stack? Because if it doesn't, it will be useless against many factions.
My apologies for being so forward, but I've been dying to get a chance to ask you these questions.
@Daedalus: It's assumed that the "1 model in 5 can exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon" is the lighting claws.
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
So if this follows the kit -- where are the lightning claws? I'm guessing the mace and axe are "accursed"?
There's also only two power fists - not three. Poweraxe?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote: Here is the Datasheet from the Box. Would be a horrible bait and switch after this datasheet if they went with the accursed weapon non-sense.
So, exactly the same as present. Still W1...lol...
Having just built my terminators yesterday, there are 3 powerfists in the kit. The Lightning Claws are Accursed Weapons (dual lightning claws being represented by swopping combi-bolter for a second accursed weapon)
Nothing new as of yet, as for my source I've already mentioned some info on B&C. Found him on reddit leaking info about the eldar codex, looked through his history and discovered he had been leaking tidbits as comments in different posts for the past 5 months... and following the massive leak of validated info on codex eldar, all his comments were true. We only communicate by reddit chat.
Greetings! Welcome to dakka, though I see you're not exactly new, but just not a frequent poster here. You're going to be absolutely bombarded with questions. Let me start!
1: Can you possibly elaborate on "Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits"? Does that mean that there are specific custom traits that benefit Unmarked units? Or can they gain those traits similar to how Chosen can, only by paying points instead of for free like Chosen?
2: Your source said that the Night Lords trait doesn't stack. Is it possible that only applies to the +1CA, and the leadership debuff does stack? Because if it doesn't, it will be useless against many factions.
My apologies for being so forward, but I've been dying to get a chance to ask you these questions.
@Daedalus: It's assumed that the "1 model in 5 can exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon" is the lighting claws.
1: I asked and chosen gaining an extra trait is the only unit in the codex that can do that, its my opinion that this ability is equivalent to the veteran skills from codex 3.5.
2: Yup it is non stacking, but that isnt so much and issue when you think about it. Most units and vehicules are LD 8 and below (almost all drukhari units, a lot of space marine units have LD8 (apart from elites and HQ with ld9), nids have terrible LD, guard as well. things that have good LD usually have either low model count (custodes who we kill through volume of attacks) or swarm (necrons, its easier to drop them to half strength) anything LD 9 like most hqs or thing like imperial knights, a NL raptor can easily tag it.
Personnaly I am hoping to get the DG stratagem for -4LD on terminators.
And no problem ask away, no one in my entourage plays CSM so the forums have been the best place to share these, reddit/facebook/4chan have been a cesspool.
LC in chosen or terminator squads are accursed weapons from what I understand.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Weird that Chosen would get a special ability but not Chaos Terminators, which are just Chosen with Terminator Armour.
Not a new concept to GW, really. Sternguards have had specialist ammo while terminators "wallow" for ages in the vanilla dex.
I think that's the trade off, Terminators get 2+/5++ (and bolter discipline to fire at max shots at max range at all times? idk if that's still in the book), Chosen get skills.
Welcome, appreciate you stopping by and answering questions, even if I don't like the answer to some of them!
My main question is what kind of support is there for Daemon Engines in the book? Is Daemonforge still in? Does it do the same thing?
Ill ask for daemonforge, but I was told that warpsmiths and disco lords were pretty much the same.
Thanks for sharing what you've found and being a line of communication to the person leaking the stuff.
Is there any way you can ask about Chaos Bikers? They were rumored as a unit getting an updated kit (alongside Possessed and Cultists). I'd be really curious to see if their rules have changed at all.
Welcome, appreciate you stopping by and answering questions, even if I don't like the answer to some of them!
My main question is what kind of support is there for Daemon Engines in the book? Is Daemonforge still in? Does it do the same thing?
Ill ask for daemonforge, but I was told that warpsmiths and disco lords were pretty much the same.
Thanks for sharing what you've found and being a line of communication to the person leaking the stuff.
Is there any way you can ask about Chaos Bikers? They were rumored as a unit getting an updated kit (alongside Possessed and Cultists). I'd be really curious to see if their rules have changed at all.
Already asked for that one, but no info yet. I am very interested in seeing what there rules will be, seeing that if all this info is true, CSM has no more pure shooting unit for special weapons spam.
Rihgu wrote: Not a new concept to GW, really. Sternguards have had specialist ammo while terminators "wallow" for ages in the vanilla dex.
I think that's the trade off, Terminators get 2+/5++ (and bolter discipline to fire at max shots at max range at all times? idk if that's still in the book), Chosen get skills.
But that's equipment, not abilities. I understand that difference, I don't understand this one.
Welcome, appreciate you stopping by and answering questions, even if I don't like the answer to some of them!
My main question is what kind of support is there for Daemon Engines in the book? Is Daemonforge still in? Does it do the same thing?
Ill ask for daemonforge, but I was told that warpsmiths and disco lords were pretty much the same.
Thanks for sharing what you've found and being a line of communication to the person leaking the stuff.
Is there any way you can ask about Chaos Bikers? They were rumored as a unit getting an updated kit (alongside Possessed and Cultists). I'd be really curious to see if their rules have changed at all.
Already asked for that one, but no info yet. I am very interested in seeing what there rules will be, seeing that if all this info is true, CSM has no more pure shooting unit for special weapons spam.
Yeah, that's true and weird, since if Terminators and Chosen can only take what's in their boxes, then they can't really spam any particular weapon, they're always paying the 'bolter tax'. Meanwhile, Space Marines and many other factions have multiple kinds of 'special weapons' units that can take all one of something...
Welcome, appreciate you stopping by and answering questions, even if I don't like the answer to some of them!
My main question is what kind of support is there for Daemon Engines in the book? Is Daemonforge still in? Does it do the same thing?
Ill ask for daemonforge, but I was told that warpsmiths and disco lords were pretty much the same.
Thanks for sharing what you've found and being a line of communication to the person leaking the stuff.
Is there any way you can ask about Chaos Bikers? They were rumored as a unit getting an updated kit (alongside Possessed and Cultists). I'd be really curious to see if their rules have changed at all.
Already asked for that one, but no info yet. I am very interested in seeing what there rules will be, seeing that if all this info is true, CSM has no more pure shooting unit for special weapons spam.
Yeah, that's true and weird, since if Terminators and Chosen can only take what's in their boxes, then they can't really spam any particular weapon, they're always paying the 'bolter tax'. Meanwhile, Space Marines and many other factions have multiple kinds of 'special weapons' units that can take all one of something...
either bikers are going to be insane shooting wise or CSM might be the faction to rock vehicules. The legion traits and super doctrines as well as standard doctrine really boost them alot.
Doohicky wrote: My worry/hope is that cult troops are being taken out as weapons/stats/skills are changing and they have to ignore what is in cult books.
They are going full seperation.
The accursed weapons are an example of this. Maybe they will also, like SMs discover rending ammunition for their bolters on standard troops.
Maybe these guys will have traits on all their vehicles!!!!
I say hope/fear because I think they need that separation otherwise hands are tied by the cult codex and improvements can't be made, hence the hope.
The fear is exact same thing, but means my DG are really going to be left behind by the creep.
I can understand removing cult units, not that I like it mind. I play all of CSM factions, Cult units should be best when used from there faction (PM's in Death Guard), then god aligned faction (the purge) than in any faction (Black Legion), but with the leaks/rumours we have seen they will out perform DG/TS simply by getting doctrines. Yes they have a few strats to buff them, but that costs CP usually better spent elsewhere.
I'd rather they keep the cult units, but it becomes a massive pain to keep them balanced across books.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I'm fully ready for the new Codex to remove every single Pistol option for the Warpsmith, except the single one the new model has in the box.
A bunch of charismatic egotistical maniacs, strictly following equipment regimen and logistics...
spot the problem.
Sam btw with DE but what do i know.
Anyways, i am still curious if only cultists get shafted via no trait or if all mortal members that will come out get the GW treatment.
With every new rumour I am thinking to throw my big chaos armies in the thrash. I am so tired to be the punching bag with flavorless rules. Accursed weapons? They already done this in AoS. They will do it again.
Lord_Valorion wrote: With every new rumour I am thinking to throw my big chaos armies in the thrash. I am so tired to be the punching bag with flavorless rules. Accursed weapons? They already done this in AoS. They will do it again.
Ship it to me, I'll make sure to dispose of them properly!
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I'm fully ready for the new Codex to remove every single Pistol option for the Warpsmith, except the single one the new model has in the box.
A bunch of charismatic egotistical maniacs, strictly following equipment regimen and logistics...
spot the problem.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I'm fully ready for the new Codex to remove every single Pistol option for the Warpsmith, except the single one the new model has in the box.
A bunch of charismatic egotistical maniacs, strictly following equipment regimen and logistics...
spot the problem.
Sam btw with DE but what do i know.
Anyways, i am still curious if only cultists get shafted via no trait or if all mortal members that will come out get the GW treatment.
The "problem" is the rules writers apparently don't talk with the fluff writers. More evidence can be found in that they've apparently decided that the only veterans in a CSM army are Chosen, and that if all of this is true they're railroading all of the Legions into taking Marks, again, despite having some variation on the line of "the 8th Legion do not appear to worship any one of the Chaos Gods, and see their more dedicated brethren as weaklings, fools, etc" in every single Codex. Same old, same old.
Oh well, back to questions:
@clockworkchris9: Anything on our psychic powers? Do they remain the same? What about the Mark locked powers? Is the Chaos Familiar stratagem still in the codex, and if so, has it changed in any way?
Edit: Also, the leaked loadout options for units haven't included anything about the Aspiring Champion options. Are these still separate from the rest of the squad? Or included in those options?
I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Whilst I don't disagree, it's not like marines don't have power sword, master crafted power swords & various other random blades with power nodes attached which all share a very similar if not identical visual profile with different rules.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Rumour monger already said the Accursed Weapons are only for Chosen and Termies.
Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Rumour monger already said the Accursed Weapons are only for Chosen and Termies.
Yea, that would still be quite weird to have models with weapons that are visibly the same, but operate differently.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Rumour monger already said the Accursed Weapons are only for Chosen and Termies.
Yea, that would still be quite weird to have models with weapons that are visibly the same, but operate differently.
That has basically been a thing since I started 40k/fantasy in 5th/8th edition respectively, made worse with each as time went on. As pointed out above, power sword vs master-crafted power sword vs relic power sword. Then you've got weapons that visibly look very different, but operate the same. Like chaos chainswords vs astartes chainswords. But astartes chainswords (as seen on tactical marines, assault marines) vs other imperial chainswords (as seen in IG) also operate differently! But IG chainswords and Eldar chainswords operate the same, unless they're scorpion chainswords (I think?) which look about as much like Aeldari chainswords as Chaos chainswords look like Astartes chainswords.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
No? Because if you can't validate the rumors yourself and the information you're providing seems contradictory or unbelievable, then it's perfectly reasonable for people to discuss the validity as well as the contents.
Might it turn out that your source is correct? Possibly. I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
Whether or not that's the same poster you're talking about I don't know. But there have also been multiple fake leakers so getting worked up over a third hand rumor seems a little silly at this point.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Rumour monger already said the Accursed Weapons are only for Chosen and Termies.
Yea, that would still be quite weird to have models with weapons that are visibly the same, but operate differently.
That has basically been a thing since I started 40k/fantasy in 5th/8th edition respectively, made worse with each as time went on. As pointed out above, power sword vs master-crafted power sword vs relic power sword. Then you've got weapons that visibly look very different, but operate the same. Like chaos chainswords vs astartes chainswords. But astartes chainswords (as seen on tactical marines, assault marines) vs other imperial chainswords (as seen in IG) also operate differently! But IG chainswords and Eldar chainswords operate the same, unless they're scorpion chainswords (I think?) which look about as much like Aeldari chainswords as Chaos chainswords look like Astartes chainswords.
Bridging armies, yes, but not so much internally.
Aggressor gauntlets are the same as PF.
Also a MCPS to a PS is far less different to whatever an Accursed weapon could be and a LC. You already know a PS is +1S AP3 and the MC will just be +1D. If the accursed weapons don't reroll to wound and add an attack it makes no sense.
But maybe that's what they'll be and that'd make base terminators pretty dope.
I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Rumour monger already said the Accursed Weapons are only for Chosen and Termies.
Yea, that would still be quite weird to have models with weapons that are visibly the same, but operate differently.
That has basically been a thing since I started 40k/fantasy in 5th/8th edition respectively, made worse with each as time went on. As pointed out above, power sword vs master-crafted power sword vs relic power sword. Then you've got weapons that visibly look very different, but operate the same. Like chaos chainswords vs astartes chainswords. But astartes chainswords (as seen on tactical marines, assault marines) vs other imperial chainswords (as seen in IG) also operate differently! But IG chainswords and Eldar chainswords operate the same, unless they're scorpion chainswords (I think?) which look about as much like Aeldari chainswords as Chaos chainswords look like Astartes chainswords.
Bridging armies, yes, but not so much internally.
Aggressor gauntlets are the same as PF.
Also a MCPS to a PS is far less different to whatever an Accursed weapon could be and a LC. You already know a PS is +1S AP3 and the MC will just be +1D. If the accursed weapons don't reroll to wound and add an attack it makes no sense.
But maybe that's what they'll be and that'd make base terminators pretty dope.
It's just another way of doing "you get what's in the kit" rules. Neither the Chosen nor Terminator kits have enough axes/swords/claws to equip the entire squad, so they get this consolidated profile instead. The Warp Talons kit has enough lighting claws to equip the entire squad, so it gets a "pass". You can't use normal logic to understand this, you have to use "gw logic".
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to press X to doubt LC becoming a generic weapon. Either the source missed something or the rumor is wrong. Otherwise Warp Talons become a visual disconnect or they themselves get the generic weapon, too.
Rumour monger already said the Accursed Weapons are only for Chosen and Termies.
Yea, that would still be quite weird to have models with weapons that are visibly the same, but operate differently.
That has basically been a thing since I started 40k/fantasy in 5th/8th edition respectively, made worse with each as time went on. As pointed out above, power sword vs master-crafted power sword vs relic power sword. Then you've got weapons that visibly look very different, but operate the same. Like chaos chainswords vs astartes chainswords. But astartes chainswords (as seen on tactical marines, assault marines) vs other imperial chainswords (as seen in IG) also operate differently! But IG chainswords and Eldar chainswords operate the same, unless they're scorpion chainswords (I think?) which look about as much like Aeldari chainswords as Chaos chainswords look like Astartes chainswords.
Bridging armies, yes, but not so much internally.
Aggressor gauntlets are the same as PF.
Also a MCPS to a PS is far less different to whatever an Accursed weapon could be and a LC. You already know a PS is +1S AP3 and the MC will just be +1D. If the accursed weapons don't reroll to wound and add an attack it makes no sense.
But maybe that's what they'll be and that'd make base terminators pretty dope.
It's just another way of doing "you get what's in the kit" rules. Neither the Chosen nor Terminator kits have enough axes/swords/claws to equip the entire squad, so they get this consolidated profile instead. The Warp Talons kit has enough lighting claws to equip the entire squad, so it gets a "pass". You can't use normal logic to understand this, you have to use "gw logic".
It's worth keeping in mind with these things that since 8th ed GW has actively given up cohesive stats across the game in favor of rules to allow specific units to do specific things, regardless of how they compare to other things in the game. The first instance of this that I can recall is the Genestealer Cults gunslinger and his much lamented trash pistols from 8th ed. This is the paradigm now. If GW actually thinks they can make a unit's rules work in a specific way by given them (even more bespoke) bespoke rules, they will do it with no regard for consistency with anything outside that unit.
I wouldn't really call it another way of doing no model, no rules and more a natural consequence of boxing themselves in with it. They can either let it go and accept that the unit can't work with the lousy options its given, which obviously doesn't work, or try to justify the rules they want and need to write to make it work somehow with an extra dose of pretense, just so long as it doesn't violate the sanctity of no model, no rules*.
I don't know if accursed weapons will be as rumored in the codex, but you absolutely should believe that even in defiance of common sense this kind of rule writing can and will happen in the game. As it already has. This is how GW works nowadays.
*Not that it's consistently enforced. GW gonna GW, after all.
I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
They haven't said a lot about Knights, and much of it is pretty cryptic, but basically:
CK getting new Questoris and Armiger variant models
Both IK and CK are going to want lots of Armigers
Knights have some ability to confer buffs/orders to Armigers. Described as a "Knight and Squire"
[This is purely my speculation] Based on him knowing rules for IK as well as CK it seems to imply both dexes are releasing around the same time
Pretty intreasting. A Questoris AND Armiger is for CK is really nice. The Questrios one already looks cool from the rumors, but getting some Armigers is awesome. That should hopefully be enough to spice up the range enough from IK.
I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
No? Because if you can't validate the rumors yourself and the information you're providing seems contradictory or unbelievable, then it's perfectly reasonable for people to discuss the validity as well as the contents.
Might it turn out that your source is correct? Possibly. I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
Whether or not that's the same poster you're talking about I don't know. But there have also been multiple fake leakers so getting worked up over a third hand rumor seems a little silly at this point.
Honestly, I see why clockworkchris9 is frustrated. On B&C they're discussing the content of the rumours, the credibility of the source is stated upfront and the mods step in to stop people demanding their nans medical history to prove the sky is blue.
They come here to share excitement and interesting stuff to discuss and people are so stiff about it all, refusing to accept anything unless it's a leaked picture a lot of the time. Rumours don't exist on Dakka any more really, the eldar calendar proved that, so many people just dumping on it because it wasn't believable, from a 'proven source', or simply because discord or reddit were mentioned. Discussing it for fun was secondary to it being legitimate.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
No? Because if you can't validate the rumors yourself and the information you're providing seems contradictory or unbelievable, then it's perfectly reasonable for people to discuss the validity as well as the contents.
Might it turn out that your source is correct? Possibly. I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
Whether or not that's the same poster you're talking about I don't know. But there have also been multiple fake leakers so getting worked up over a third hand rumor seems a little silly at this point.
Honestly, I see why clockworkchris9 is frustrated. On B&C they're discussing the content of the rumours, the credibility of the source is stated upfront and the mods step in to stop people demanding their nans medical history to prove the sky is blue.
They come here to share excitement and interesting stuff to discuss and people are so stiff about it all, refusing to accept anything unless it's a leaked picture a lot of the time. Rumours don't exist on Dakka any more really, the eldar calendar proved that, so many people just dumping on it because it wasn't believable, from a 'proven source', or simply because discord or reddit were mentioned. Discussing it for fun was secondary to it being legitimate.
And the original Eldar rumors there ended up being complete bunk, before someone came in with actual leaks complete with blurry photos of the codex.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
No? Because if you can't validate the rumors yourself and the information you're providing seems contradictory or unbelievable, then it's perfectly reasonable for people to discuss the validity as well as the contents.
Might it turn out that your source is correct? Possibly. I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
Whether or not that's the same poster you're talking about I don't know. But there have also been multiple fake leakers so getting worked up over a third hand rumor seems a little silly at this point.
Honestly, I see why clockworkchris9 is frustrated. On B&C they're discussing the content of the rumours, the credibility of the source is stated upfront and the mods step in to stop people demanding their nans medical history to prove the sky is blue.
They come here to share excitement and interesting stuff to discuss and people are so stiff about it all, refusing to accept anything unless it's a leaked picture a lot of the time. Rumours don't exist on Dakka any more really, the eldar calendar proved that, so many people just dumping on it because it wasn't believable, from a 'proven source', or simply because discord or reddit were mentioned. Discussing it for fun was secondary to it being legitimate.
And the original Eldar rumors there ended up being complete bunk, before someone came in with actual leaks complete with blurry photos of the codex.
There weren't any blurry codex photos until after new years iirc.
The datasheet for the Warpsmith can be 90% the same with a small line that says "This model can be equipped with either a Power Axe or a Thunder Hammer" and boom done. It's a relatively small line in the grand scheme of things.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Guys this has already been stated to be a leak that i myself cannot validate, could we stop posting that we need to take this with salt and that you dont believe it or that you have doubts. Its redundant and serves no purpose, instead lets just talk about our opinions on the actual leaks.
No? Because if you can't validate the rumors yourself and the information you're providing seems contradictory or unbelievable, then it's perfectly reasonable for people to discuss the validity as well as the contents.
Might it turn out that your source is correct? Possibly. I've also seen a Reddit poster that posted about both the ranger jetbike and exact box contents over 8 months ago. And lately they posted info about the yet undiscussed Chaos Knight release, both models and rules.
Whether or not that's the same poster you're talking about I don't know. But there have also been multiple fake leakers so getting worked up over a third hand rumor seems a little silly at this point.
Honestly, I see why clockworkchris9 is frustrated. On B&C they're discussing the content of the rumours, the credibility of the source is stated upfront and the mods step in to stop people demanding their nans medical history to prove the sky is blue.
They come here to share excitement and interesting stuff to discuss and people are so stiff about it all, refusing to accept anything unless it's a leaked picture a lot of the time. Rumours don't exist on Dakka any more really, the eldar calendar proved that, so many people just dumping on it because it wasn't believable, from a 'proven source', or simply because discord or reddit were mentioned. Discussing it for fun was secondary to it being legitimate.
And the original Eldar rumors there ended up being complete bunk, before someone came in with actual leaks complete with blurry photos of the codex.
There weren't any blurry codex photos until after new years iirc.
There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
And the original Eldar rumors there ended up being complete bunk, before someone came in with actual leaks complete with blurry photos of the codex.
There was a set of rumours posted on r/Eldar in late November that turned out to be inaccurate.
However the next set of rumours from Dec 1st onwards came with no public proof, but apparently shared some material privately with the admins of the Eldar discord in return for a vouch. These rumours were at least 90% accurate so far.
Then from the start of January a third person started to leak codex images via the Eldar Discord server.
And the original Eldar rumors there ended up being complete bunk, before someone came in with actual leaks complete with blurry photos of the codex.
There was a set of rumours posted on r/Eldar in late November that turned out to be inaccurate.
However the next set of rumours from Dec 1st onwards came with no public proof, but apparently shared some material privately with the admins of the Eldar discord in return for a vouch. These rumours were at least 90% accurate so far.
Then from the start of January a third person started to leak codex images via the Eldar Discord server.
All in all, very little of what was leaked was complete bunk
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
I honestly don't understand why the topic of rumor validity is so important. With GW being so tight-lipped and taking their sweet time getting things out, I'm thankful for anything that keeps the conversation going and I enjoy the speculation that comes with it. I know some rumors end up being bupkis, but I also know that they're fun to talk about regardless. Either way, the only thing that matters in the end is the official release, and everything up until that point is just debates, hopium and copium.
drbored wrote: I honestly don't understand why the topic of rumor validity is so important. With GW being so tight-lipped and taking their sweet time getting things out, I'm thankful for anything that keeps the conversation going and I enjoy the speculation that comes with it. I know some rumors end up being bupkis, but I also know that they're fun to talk about regardless. Either way, the only thing that matters in the end is the official release, and everything up until that point is just debates, hopium and copium.
I'd say validity is important because people get massively riled up over this stuff, act like it's 100% going to happen, and then start hurling insults if someone says "stop being so mad it's just a rumour". Generally, it also happens that if someone doesn't believe the rumour they get told "you just don't understand GW" or "you're <insert insult> if you think GW wouldn't do that". The discussion never goes anywhere, it just becomes another dumping ground for those who have an axe to grind. Just my two pence.
drbored wrote: I honestly don't understand why the topic of rumor validity is so important. With GW being so tight-lipped and taking their sweet time getting things out, I'm thankful for anything that keeps the conversation going and I enjoy the speculation that comes with it. I know some rumors end up being bupkis, but I also know that they're fun to talk about regardless. Either way, the only thing that matters in the end is the official release, and everything up until that point is just debates, hopium and copium.
I'd say validity is important because people get massively riled up over this stuff, act like it's 100% going to happen, and then start hurling insults if someone says "stop being so mad it's just a rumour". Generally, it also happens that if someone doesn't believe the rumour they get told "you just don't understand GW" or "you're <insert insult> if you think GW wouldn't do that". The discussion never goes anywhere, it just becomes another dumping ground for those who have an axe to grind. Just my two pence.
That's fair. In my mind it's less about validity and more about where you get your entertainment. This sort of forum is entertainment, whether it's watching other people grind axes or speculating on what's coming, what might come, etc.
From what I've seen, anyone that makes any sort of claim along the lines of "GW would NEVER/ALWAYS do this!" ends up being wrong more often than not, and that's fun to watch.
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
It isn't, but it's more interesting to discuss the actual leaked rules. For instance, look at that Night Lords trait compared to the others. How am I supposed to make that work against high leadership factions? C'mon, give me that "Daedalus" positive spin.
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing. The fact that this comes about only because of GW's asinine no model/no rule issue having a head-on collision with an extremely option poor kit (Chaos Termies) makes it all the worse, as it is 100% in GW's power to not do this. This is a dilemma of their own creation and, sadly, a solution that only they could come up with...
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing.
But that's exactly what the Jackals deal with when it comes to the models having shotguns, autopistols, and an autogun all having one generic "Jackal guns" statline despite Neophytes being able to literally mix those three actual weapon statlines in a squad.
I can literally in one army put a unit down with 1 autopistol, 4 shotguns, and 5 autogun that have autopistol, shotgun, autogun statlines when they shoot and in that same army put down a unit with 3 shotguns, 3 autopistol, and 2 autoguns that all share a 12" Pistol 2 statline when they fire.
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing. The fact that this comes about only because of GW's asinine no model/no rule issue having a head-on collision with an extremely option poor kit (Chaos Termies) makes it all the worse, as it is 100% in GW's power to not do this. This is a dilemma of their own creation and, sadly, a solution that only they could come up with...
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing. The fact that this comes about only because of GW's asinine no model/no rule issue having a head-on collision with an extremely option poor kit (Chaos Termies) makes it all the worse, as it is 100% in GW's power to not do this. This is a dilemma of their own creation and, sadly, a solution that only they could come up with...
Yeah, I'll forever be in the camp that GW should just have more bits in the box, especially if kit prices are going to keep going up like they are. Simplification of rules aside, this is the greater point of the issue. So many sprues are jam-packed with bits, in ways that minimize seam-lines gorgeously, but with less and less customization.
In a faction like Chaos Marines where customization is incredibly important, having both kit options and rules options shrink away like this feels real bad.
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing.
But that's exactly what the Jackals deal with when it comes to the models having shotguns, autopistols, and an autogun all having one generic "Jackal guns" statline despite Neophytes being able to literally mix those three actual weapon statlines in a squad.
I can literally in one army put a unit down with 1 autopistol, 4 shotguns, and 5 autogun that have autopistol, shotgun, autogun statlines when they shoot and in that same army put down a unit with 3 shotguns, 3 autopistol, and 2 autoguns that all share a 12" Pistol 2 statline when they fire.
Yeah, that's more my issue. I actually don't care about 'jackal guns' and 'accursed weapons' as something supposedly inherently bad. I actually liked all power weapons (or hand weapons in fantasy) being the same back in the day- it meant modelling for the look of the miniature, not min/maxing every applicable bonus. I honestly really like that more. 'Small arms' being a category for anti-infantry weapons is an idea I can get behind instead of 4.5 pages of stats vomit- save that for small scale games like Necromunda or Warcry.
But I very much dislike them being inconsistent about it.
Platuan4th wrote: But that's exactly what the Jackals deal with when it comes to the models having shotguns, autopistols, and an autogun all having one generic "Jackal guns" statline despite Neophytes being able to literally mix those three actual weapon statlines in a squad.
My apologies. I didn't realise they had done it with ranged weaponry, only a few random HTH weapons (an axe here, a pick there).
Yeah... that's beyond stupid. And I really thought that the insufferable word-salad unit option nonsense from Death Guard through Sword Brethren was the bottom of the barrel. Somehow GW dug deeper.
drbored wrote: Yeah, I'll forever be in the camp that GW should just have more bits in the box, especially if kit prices are going to keep going up like they are. Simplification of rules aside, this is the greater point of the issue. So many sprues are jam-packed with bits, in ways that minimize seam-lines gorgeously, but with less and less customization.
'Bits, bits, everywhere and not a option to use...' - The Rime of the Ancient Jervisifier
drbored wrote: In a faction like Chaos Marines where customization is incredibly important, having both kit options and rules options shrink away like this feels real bad.
It's a doubly poor showing for Chaos in this particular instance, because we're finally getting a full plastic Chosen kit.
Chosen. The Chosen of the Warmaster. The leader's top soldiers. The absolute best of the best. The men who have been through everything, slaughtered thousands in the name of the Dark Gods, and should, by rights, have first pick of the best equipment. And what do they get:
1. A sprue with a limited selection of weapons*. 2. Rules that make all their weapons generic.
Yeah, that's the sting. Tbh, I can deal with rules being wonky or weird or simply lacking, I've been dealing with that since 5th edition when it comes to Chaos Marines.
But when the actual kits are less impressive... All I can hope is that I can indeed kitbash the Chosen more easily than some other models. Plague Marines, for example, sometimes only build one or two ways. As long as I can swap in some Havoc, Chaos Marine, or Raptor weapons in among the Chosen, then I can make whatever I want. But, for a kit that's likely going to be 60USD for 5 models, I was hoping for a lot more.
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing. The fact that this comes about only because of GW's asinine no model/no rule issue having a head-on collision with an extremely option poor kit (Chaos Termies) makes it all the worse, as it is 100% in GW's power to not do this. This is a dilemma of their own creation and, sadly, a solution that only they could come up with...
Yeah, I'll forever be in the camp that GW should just have more bits in the box, especially if kit prices are going to keep going up like they are. Simplification of rules aside, this is the greater point of the issue. So many sprues are jam-packed with bits, in ways that minimize seam-lines gorgeously, but with less and less customization.
In a faction like Chaos Marines where customization is incredibly important, having both kit options and rules options shrink away like this feels real bad.
It comes down to gw not putting equal sprues for equal $$ in kits. Chaos Terminators are two sprues for $60. Meanwhile, Sword Brethren are three sprues for $55. The Chaos Terminators kit comes with, what? 11 melee weapons? My Cataphractii came with: 10 lighting claws, 5 power fists, 5 chainfists, and a power sword. Why couldn't they get another sprue in the Chaos Terminators box when they could similar models?
Platuan4th wrote: See, I totally buy the Accursed Weapon thing after they did the same thing to Jackals in the GSC book.
Jervis' kids must be playing the game again.
Yeah I dunno if I'd call it the 'same thing'. Giving us a situation where one unit has a Lightning Claw that's the same as a Power Maul, but another where it's not, is needlessly confusing. The fact that this comes about only because of GW's asinine no model/no rule issue having a head-on collision with an extremely option poor kit (Chaos Termies) makes it all the worse, as it is 100% in GW's power to not do this. This is a dilemma of their own creation and, sadly, a solution that only they could come up with...
Yeah, I'll forever be in the camp that GW should just have more bits in the box, especially if kit prices are going to keep going up like they are. Simplification of rules aside, this is the greater point of the issue. So many sprues are jam-packed with bits, in ways that minimize seam-lines gorgeously, but with less and less customization.
In a faction like Chaos Marines where customization is incredibly important, having both kit options and rules options shrink away like this feels real bad.
It comes down to gw not putting equal sprues for equal $$ in kits. Chaos Terminators are two sprues for $60. Meanwhile, Sword Brethren are three sprues for $55. The Chaos Terminators kit comes with, what? 11 melee weapons? My Cataphractii came with: 10 lighting claws, 5 power fists, 5 chainfists, and a power sword. Why couldn't they get another sprue in the Chaos Terminators box when they could similar models?
A wonderful question that I'd love to ask the higher ups.
drbored wrote: But when the actual kits are less impressive... All I can hope is that I can indeed kitbash the Chosen more easily than some other models. Plague Marines, for example, sometimes only build one or two ways. As long as I can swap in some Havoc, Chaos Marine, or Raptor weapons in among the Chosen, then I can make whatever I want. But, for a kit that's likely going to be 60USD for 5 models, I was hoping for a lot more.
I've never sat down and counted them, but I believe I own roughly 5-6 boxes of Vanguard Vets, 5-6 boxes of Sternguard Vets and between 8-10 boxes of Deathwatch Vets. I bought them all to kit-bash the ever-loving feth out of them, mixing and matching all sorts of crazy gear.
Then I look at the Chosen kit... and... what went wrong?
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
It isn't, but it's more interesting to discuss the actual leaked rules. For instance, look at that Night Lords trait compared to the others. How am I supposed to make that work against high leadership factions? C'mon, give me that "Daedalus" positive spin.
I think I am in the minority, but I personally don't really mind the "Accursed Weapons" thing. I own a lot of old metal terminators, some with chain axes, some with power swords, some power mauls etc, and it will be actually quite nice that the weapons have the same profile so can just be rolled all at once. And the "Accursed Weapons" profile actually looks pretty good. I mean do people really want to have a combat where you roll one chain ax, four chain swords, a power sword, a power maul, and a fist? Now you can just put any weapon that looks cool (like a power maul as the profile sucks) or kitbash your own cool looking weapons (like a buzz saw or daemon whip) and not worry about what it does. Actually kit bashing my own weapons seems like the best reason to like this rule, as it opens up a lot of possibilities. And it is better than GW limiting you to the exact weapons in the kit so one chose must have claws, on one can have a chain ax etc.
I am more annoyed about terminators losing access to the combi-bolter weapons as I can't take a melta bomb squad (never had the energy to get all the plasma) anymore and that kind of sucks. I feel bad for anyone who put in the work for the plasma spam.
Outside of the terminator/chosen issue I am really liking the rumors so far. I think the doctrines seem good but not over the top. I am pretty excited as I have not played CSM for several years and really want to break out my models.
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
It isn't, but it's more interesting to discuss the actual leaked rules. For instance, look at that Night Lords trait compared to the others. How am I supposed to make that work against high leadership factions? C'mon, give me that "Daedalus" positive spin.
Hang on let me go read them, lol.
So, -2LD @ 9" is pretty decent. If that stacked under current rules it would murder so hard - not even considering -1 CA. If spearguy still puts out -1LD then you're 3/4 the way to the -4LD from DG terminators.
I don't know your favorite mark, but +1S and +1AP with another +1AP in doctrine on top of the +1 to wound...like that friggin' murders with basic weapons...
The ability to trigger morale with the -2 when you hit melee will be quite high.
xeen wrote: I mean do people really want to have a combat where you roll one chain ax, four chain swords, a power sword, a power maul, and a fist?
I want the rules to represent the models on a consistent basis.
I want a Lightning Claw pair in one squad to be the same as a Lightning Claw pair in another squad, not claws in one and some Jervisified generic weapon in another because the people writing the rules had a mental meltdown when faced with no model/no rule vs poorly designed kits. Personally I don't think that's too much to ask a power sword be a power sword consistently across the entire army, especially given Marines have 89 different types of Bolters.
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
It isn't, but it's more interesting to discuss the actual leaked rules. For instance, look at that Night Lords trait compared to the others. How am I supposed to make that work against high leadership factions? C'mon, give me that "Daedalus" positive spin.
Hang on let me go read them, lol.
So, -2LD @ 9" is pretty decent. If that stacked under current rules it would murder so hard - not even considering -1 CA. If spearguy still puts out -1LD then you're 3/4 the way to the -4LD from DG terminators.
I don't know your favorite mark, but +1S and +1AP with another +1AP in doctrine on top of the +1 to wound...like that friggin' murders with basic weapons...
The ability to trigger morale with the -2 when you hit melee will be quite high.
"Spearguy" is Black Legion. As for Marks, I prefer none, because they're Night Lords. But since that doesn't appear to be a viable option again, I'd go "mix-n-match". Nurgle for Havocs (T5 with -1 to wound and auto-wounding 6s with chaincannons, yowza), Khorne for Raptors for the reasons you stated, Slaanesh for Warp Talons (hitting on 2s + fighting first + no fallback + 5 attacks = Bladeguard killers). Still undecided on CSM and Chosen (need to see all of those Veteran Skills first). Sound like a plan?
Just....looking at the Chosen Sprue is depressing.
The sheer amount of split torsos, split bodies with one and a half legs etc. is just depressing. I wasn't a huge fan of the CSM kit going down that route but at least the arms and in some cases the torsos were salvageable and could be, for the most part mixed with heads/shoulders/arms from other kits.
But the Chosen Sprue.... literally has backpacks that are forced to bodies. Bodies that have the strangest splits I have ever seen.
At least it looks like we can mostly ccw/pistol or all bolter them if need be but given what they pulled with Plague Marines, I don't trust them not to shaft us with random luck of the kit options.
What they did to Plague Marines was diabolical. In the space of 1 edition. 1 edition the majority of my DG army basically became illegal. And I have no idea who the hell thought that was a good idea.
Did they not think people woulddouble up on weapon options and run multiples? I mean, it's a wargame, technically. Strategicially it's not valid to run a squad that has half a dozen different weapons suited for half a dozen different targets.
The universal blobbing of weapons seems...terrible.
Now, if they pulled a complete overhaul of the gave so that infantry all had X, Y or Z TYPES as profiles for weapons, that wouldn't be a problem.
But as people have pointed out with GSC - when you can literally have other units in the very same army with the very same VISUAL representation of weapons but completely different statlines... that's a problem.
Clarity and WYSIWYG is important. And though this might be an easy solution for WYSIWYG purposes and to not completely invalidate CSM players squads entirely (haha, only 1 pair of Lightnig Claws for your Terminators, RIP those squads of them) the other option is to just let us take them as we did before and NOT restrict them to what horrible design plans GW decided when doingt he kit for options.
DarkStarSabre wrote: But the Chosen Sprue.... literally has backpacks that are forced to bodies. Bodies that have the strangest splits I have ever seen.
The backpacks, arms, pauldrons & heads/helmets are interchangeable in the same way as they are in e.g. the basic CSM box. You're not forced to put certain backpacks on certain bodies.
Yeah it's not quite the Havoc situation, where the helmets attach to the backpack, further limiting posing.
But, still, given the type of kit we couldhavegot, it ain't great, and the disappointment is further compounded by what I said earlier: These are meant to be Chosen, FFS!
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
It isn't, but it's more interesting to discuss the actual leaked rules. For instance, look at that Night Lords trait compared to the others. How am I supposed to make that work against high leadership factions? C'mon, give me that "Daedalus" positive spin.
Hang on let me go read them, lol.
So, -2LD @ 9" is pretty decent. If that stacked under current rules it would murder so hard - not even considering -1 CA. If spearguy still puts out -1LD then you're 3/4 the way to the -4LD from DG terminators.
I don't know your favorite mark, but +1S and +1AP with another +1AP in doctrine on top of the +1 to wound...like that friggin' murders with basic weapons...
The ability to trigger morale with the -2 when you hit melee will be quite high.
"Spearguy" is Black Legion. As for Marks, I prefer none, because they're Night Lords. But since that doesn't appear to be a viable option again, I'd go "mix-n-match". Nurgle for Havocs (T5 with -1 to wound and auto-wounding 6s with chaincannons, yowza), Khorne for Raptors for the reasons you stated, Slaanesh for Warp Talons (hitting on 2s + fighting first + no fallback + 5 attacks = Bladeguard killers). Still undecided on CSM and Chosen (need to see all of those Veteran Skills first). Sound like a plan?
Yea, but he isn't a replacable keyword so I think you can slide him in...if he's worth it.
Mmm, I do wonder if there is a "no mark" option they missed otherwise it sounds good. I am quite interested in Rubrics that pass the first failed save and go to AP3. If the failed save applies to dreads...oh baby.
drbored wrote: But when the actual kits are less impressive... All I can hope is that I can indeed kitbash the Chosen more easily than some other models. Plague Marines, for example, sometimes only build one or two ways. As long as I can swap in some Havoc, Chaos Marine, or Raptor weapons in among the Chosen, then I can make whatever I want. But, for a kit that's likely going to be 60USD for 5 models, I was hoping for a lot more.
I've never sat down and counted them, but I believe I own roughly 5-6 boxes of Vanguard Vets, 5-6 boxes of Sternguard Vets and between 8-10 boxes of Deathwatch Vets. I bought them all to kit-bash the ever-loving feth out of them, mixing and matching all sorts of crazy gear.
Then I look at the Chosen kit... and... what went wrong?
I'd say three things stick out to me.
1) Chosen are a mixed ranged-melee squad. Compared to Sternguard and Vanguard which focus on having mostly ranged or only melee, Chosen are trying to cram a smorgasbord of sidearms, melee, and dedicated ranged weapons all onto one kit. Deathwatch Vets have a similar experience with one standard layout and two of all other options.
2) Chaos kits, by virtue of the aesthetic GW leaned into, are a lot less space efficient. Compare Chosen with DW Vets, pretty much every part of the Chosen takes up more space. Huge stretched backpacks, horned helmets, extended chainsword bladefronts, a separate cape, a trophy rack, icons, etc.
3) Beyond aesthetic, the Chosen are just "bigger". They have the new upscaled proportions like other Chaos and also DW Vets, but unlikeDW Vets (who have pretty tight stances) 3/5 of the Chosen are in very wide legged stances which take more space. The Chosen are also divided into front and back halves which takes twice as much space. Then you also have the chainaxes, power axe, and power maul which have been upgraded from earlier short hafted depictions to these new medium hafted versions which take up yet more space...
It all just comes together to take an already packed concept and turn it into an overstuffed kit.
Sasori wrote: There were not, and one of the leakers had been leaking stuff for months before even the advent calendar. Which is why it's a bit annoying when we have people dumping on the rumor folks when they come here. Like, we already know to take anything with salt, it's rumors after all.
I'm just asking questions about things that seem weird and what it might mean for other units. I don't really think that's verboten.
It isn't, but it's more interesting to discuss the actual leaked rules. For instance, look at that Night Lords trait compared to the others. How am I supposed to make that work against high leadership factions? C'mon, give me that "Daedalus" positive spin.
Hang on let me go read them, lol.
So, -2LD @ 9" is pretty decent. If that stacked under current rules it would murder so hard - not even considering -1 CA. If spearguy still puts out -1LD then you're 3/4 the way to the -4LD from DG terminators.
I don't know your favorite mark, but +1S and +1AP with another +1AP in doctrine on top of the +1 to wound...like that friggin' murders with basic weapons...
The ability to trigger morale with the -2 when you hit melee will be quite high.
"Spearguy" is Black Legion. As for Marks, I prefer none, because they're Night Lords. But since that doesn't appear to be a viable option again, I'd go "mix-n-match". Nurgle for Havocs (T5 with -1 to wound and auto-wounding 6s with chaincannons, yowza), Khorne for Raptors for the reasons you stated, Slaanesh for Warp Talons (hitting on 2s + fighting first + no fallback + 5 attacks = Bladeguard killers). Still undecided on CSM and Chosen (need to see all of those Veteran Skills first). Sound like a plan?
Yea, but he isn't a replacable keyword so I think you can slide him in...if he's worth it.
Mmm, I do wonder if there is a "no mark" option they missed otherwise it sounds good. I am quite interested in Rubrics that pass the first failed save and go to AP3. If the failed save applies to dreads...oh baby.
Nah, as JNAPRODUCTIONS points out, he'd break the Legion bonuses. The 8th doesn't need some punk that turned Black Legion anyway.
It looks like the best "no mark" can get is +1CA from a Mark of Vengeance. They did mention that "Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits" traits though, so maybe something. I doubt they'll let vehicles have Icons, but you never know.
The only real use for that idiot is kitbashing a chaos lord with jump pack... if that stays a possibility.
And even then, I'm not sure its worth it for the price and the weirdly distinctive bits and bobs (particularly the chest plate and oversized tubes on the jetpack).
It comes down to gw not putting equal sprues for equal $$ in kits. Chaos Terminators are two sprues for $60. Meanwhile, Sword Brethren are three sprues for $55. The Chaos Terminators kit comes with, what? 11 melee weapons? My Cataphractii came with: 10 lighting claws, 5 power fists, 5 chainfists, and a power sword. Why couldn't they get another sprue in the Chaos Terminators box when they could similar models?
It's almost like a society where corporation subsist almost solely thanks to the value extracted from workers doesn't make for the best products .
Seriously, I'd give much to be given a spreadsheet with the actual cost of production (counting designing, casting, transport, distribution, etc...) of our boxes of plastic soldiers and compare it to GW's profits. If we knew the gap, it might make some of their pricing decisions less arbitrary. And it might also make the price of the boxes drop a bit (or the salary of all of GW's employees rise a lot )
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah it's not quite the Havoc situation, where the helmets attach to the backpack, further limiting posing.
But, still, given the type of kit we couldhavegot, it ain't great, and the disappointment is further compounded by what I said earlier: These are meant to be Chosen, FFS!
This is nu-GW though. The age of those types of kits ended with the rise of the Primaris and only a handful of kits released since have challenged that ethos.
Usually, I don't mind it. Sisters of Battle, my main army, has a lot of ways to customize and swap parts. Death Guard really got the short end of the stick. Chaos Marines, even with the new Chosen, don't seem to be that bad, but are definitely on that side of the spectrum.
I know it's tangential to the Chaos discussion, but YES, absolutely flipping awful, on a number of levels. Tiny sprue? Check. Each model only goes together in one specific way? Check. No optional/variant parts whatsoever? Check. So all these things combine to essentially give you a kit that gives you five monopose (and I use that in the strictest sense of the term; fixed poses, no swapping or changing of bits AT ALL) models for an eye-watering THIRTY ONE AND A HALF QUID, with the added bonus that they're INCREDIBLY fragile and fiddly to put together, which has the corollary of making it very difficult indeed to do any chopping and swapping if you feel the inclination to try and convert them for a bit of variety. Hands-down the worst GW kit I've encountered in recent years, and all the more galling given that Flayed Ones are one of my fave Necron units. We hates it.
Gert wrote: If the Flayed Ones were a box of 10 I'd be less inclined to hate it.
For sure – if it had ten different poses it would be twice as good as it is currently, but if for some reason five's the limit, would it really have killed them to make some parts swappable, or even just put in some variant heads?Absolute stinker of a kit, tied with the new Ork Boyz on my dog house.
As usual with GW though, there's no rhyme or reason to any of it – cf the new Ork Kommandos; a similarly niche unit to Flayed Ones in their respective faction, and they get ten guys (plus a squiggling and a grot) with a mind-boggling array of cool options and bitz, which can even be mixed and matched across models. All for five quid more than the pitiful Flayed Ones kit.
Yea, I'm not going to buy the flayed ones, I built 10 of them out of warriors, plasticard and green stuff, and if I ever need more, I'll do the same again. The new kit is terrible value for the money, and I won't support it.
Would the Kommando kit be as versatile if it wasn't released for Kill Team? I could easily see it ending up as monoposed as the other orks kits released at that time.
GaroRobe wrote: Would the Kommando kit be as versatile if it wasn't released for Kill Team? I could easily see it ending up as monoposed as the other orks kits released at that time.
Of course not, and i'd bet it would also be 5 dudes instead of 10 + Squig and Grot.
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
Is the book a MoT only thing or can Nurgle and Slaanesh marks take it too?
Assuming the leaks are accurate and they have the codex, can't the leaker leak the upcoming units? We know new chaos models are coming so they should be in the new codex
GaroRobe wrote: Assuming the leaks are accurate and they have the codex, can't the leaker leak the upcoming units? We know new chaos models are coming so they should be in the new codex
What other units are there, he already leaked the new cultist stuff and the chosen, possessed. All that is missing is bikers, and hes bot willing to give me thst info yet.
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
Is the book a MoT only thing or can Nurgle and Slaanesh marks take it too?
I am awaiting validation on this but my guess its for any marls apart from khorne.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is my sources impression, and something mirrored by others on B&C. The book and chainaxe might be a kill team upgrade sprue for the csm vs corsairs box
GaroRobe wrote: Assuming the leaks are accurate and they have the codex, can't the leaker leak the upcoming units? We know new chaos models are coming so they should be in the new codex
What other units are there, he already leaked the new cultist stuff and the chosen, possessed. All that is missing is bikers, and hes bot willing to give me thst info yet.
The original (and so far highly accurate) rumordump mentioned Traitor Guardsmen and Possessed Humans. And new Cultists as well, but I doubt they'll be any different from the ones in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
clockworkchris9 wrote: This is my sources impression, and something mirrored by others on B&C. The book and chainaxe might be a kill team upgrade sprue for the csm vs corsairs box
Well, let's hope it includes a chaincannon. And a combi-weapon for the Champion!
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
Now, that is super intreasting. Being able to turna squad into a Psyker has some intreating implications with the new CA missions.
What about the Human style possesed or Mutants from that one rumor? Is there any info on those?
Couldn't they already do that ? There's even a little guy on the sprue.
They turned it into a stratagem. Hey, wait! Could they actually be turning something that went from being a piece of wargear to being a stratagem back into a piece of wargear? Holy crap! We got one back!
I think the worst part of the Flayed Ones kit was mostly putting it together. I have never felt as miserable putting together a mini. I think the only kit I hate more is the Skaven Arch-Warlock which I looked at, tried to fit, and then dumped it into the pile of shame when I can bother fielding a dremel on the balcony.
The Arch-warlock maybe gets a pass since it's an "older" model and metal (honestly amazed that Ikit Klaw wasn't turned to finecast, but the GW site says metal.)
Flayed Ones are a new plastic kit and the fact that they're such a nuisance to assemble is unforgivable. Especially since it's a monopose kit that could have just been easy-to-build or snapfit.
You’d have to take Harken in an Aux, then-and you’d lose the super doctrine type ability, probably.
Right - he'd have to get the rule to be addable as an exception, which is unlikely for someone of his stature. There's still spawn, which I know Gad won't like. Not sure what else might have LD malus.
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
Now, that is super intreasting. Being able to turna squad into a Psyker has some intreating implications with the new CA missions.
What about the Human style possesed or Mutants from that one rumor? Is there any info on those?
So the mutant unit can be built with a mixe or 2 types of models.
Daedalus81 wrote: Right - he'd have to get the rule to be addable as an exception, which is unlikely for someone of his stature.
You never know. When he got FAQ'd to have his rule only effect Black Legion Raptors GW changed his rule back to all Raptors regardless of subfaction to make it fit with the idea of the Black Legion leading many different Warbands under the banner of Abaddon.
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
Now, that is super intreasting. Being able to turna squad into a Psyker has some intreating implications with the new CA missions.
What about the Human style possesed or Mutants from that one rumor? Is there any info on those?
So the mutant unit can be built with a mixe or 2 types of models.
Small mutants
S4 t4 ap1 melee
Big mutant
S5 t4 ap2 melee
Oh you did mention these before, I apologize for asking a question that has already been answered.
I guess I'm just ready to get the codex at this point hahah.
so what are these?
... also anyone saw the new rules for harlequin weapons? Stratagems for weapons is a clusterfeth. Feels like they did on harlequins just to use them as a scapegoat before the announcement of accursed weapons (if truthful)
Sloth from the Goonies was really a heretic this whole time.
Having seen the Chosen with the 360 degree view, I really like the champion and I'm not sold on the rest. A lot of them seem to have recycled CAD elements from the Death Guard, with the power fist, to the tentacles holding bolters on their backpacks. They are slightly more mutated than the standard CSM kit, but only barely. At most, they have tentacles on their backpacks or maybe one on their leg or a single fleshy cable. Far less gribbly than the DV Chosen. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to your personal opinion. Personally, although I prefer the DV chosen, the rampant mutations were a bit too "possessed" for my taste.
Also, not that it's new since we saw the sprues, but I like the optional god-specific icons. I'm hoping for a god-specific head for the champion as well. It definitely looks like two of the heads could be for khorne or tzeentch/slaanesh.
Gert wrote: Woah woah, hold up. There's actual proper Icons in this kit? Not just generic star and eye of Horus?
I took a close look at the sprue pics yesterday and it seems there's a small generic Chaos Star on a backpack pole, as well as 4 circular icons that glue into that star.
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
I can't remember a time when Helbrutes (dreadnoughts) could take icons. May be meaning Marks?
Chaos terminator sorcerer getting his familiar back is pretty great.
Wait wait wait. Chaos Space Marine troops can purchase a book that makes the unit psychic... and a 2 handed chainaxe option? Is this about the cultists, or actual Chaos Marines? Just checking.
Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)
Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar
Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout)
I can't remember a time when Helbrutes (dreadnoughts) could take icons. May be meaning Marks?
Chaos terminator sorcerer getting his familiar back is pretty great.
Wait wait wait. Chaos Space Marine troops can purchase a book that makes the unit psychic... and a 2 handed chainaxe option? Is this about the cultists, or actual Chaos Marines? Just checking.
I am intrigued by this too. The upgrade of the book and the chainaxe, is it a unit improvement only in points (like a specialization) or does it mean that it can be represented in the miniature? if it is the latter, it would surely mean that the KT against corsairs are chaos marines and not cultists or renegade guard...
zamerion wrote: The upgrade of the book and the chainaxe, is it a unit improvement only in points (like a specialization) or does it mean that it can be represented in the miniature?
It sounds to me like a copy of the Black Templars 'Relic Bearers' rules. Non-character infantry and biker units can take one per unit for a small points / power level increase. Each upgrade is max 1 per army and the specific model carrying it has to be marked in some visually obvious way. BT need a chaplain in the army to do it, so CSM might need to have a sorcerer or dark apostle.
I would dare to ask some questions, as aside from Chosen there is still a lot to get to piece the codex together. Then of course answer how you can.
What about faction mechanics (eg. contagions, acts of faith)? Shall we expect something other than "Dark Doctrines" ?
What about faction upgrades that you pay with points (eg. mechanicus orders, sisters' blessings)? Is it just icons and marks for core and characters? Seems something too generic to me
Can your contact give us some more examples of stratagems/traits/relics?
What about psychic powers? Will be there one for sorcerers and one for MoPs as before? Shall we expect the same powers of TS's Dark Hereticus?
Is there some interesting change in datasheets? For example I would expect some changes to Master of Execution and Exalted Champions, which rarely worked as intended.
Finally, for a broader feedback, do you have some indiscretion about the design of the faction? What was the aim? To have just a mirror of SMs like Chaos Knights? A synergic force with Daemons and cultist? A three codex in one as Drukhari?
You’d have to take Harken in an Aux, then-and you’d lose the super doctrine type ability, probably.
Right - he'd have to get the rule to be addable as an exception, which is unlikely for someone of his stature. There's still spawn, which I know Gad won't like. Not sure what else might have LD malus.
Yeah, no spawn in my Night Lords. No Black Legion defector either, my guys don't fight "under the banner of Abaddon" (ugh). The only help they'll get is Raptors. Which goes to show what's wrong with the trait: you shouldn't have to take specific units just to make it work. But I'm not worried. These are just leaks, and they're supposed to be coming from playtest rules. So, it's quite possible that they'll change. If not, I'll just use some of the custom traits that suit me better.
But enough of that, have you seen the full 360 views of the new Chosen? I won't be using those helmetless heads, but besides that, those are some real Veterans of the Long War.
I wonder how long until they're available separately on eBay......
Gadzilla666 wrote: But enough of that, have you seen the full 360 views of the new Chosen? I won't be using those helmetless heads, but besides that, those are some real Veterans of the Long War.
I wonder how long until they're available separately on eBay......
Yea I always do helmets.
I picked up two on eBay. $185 was low enough for me to jump on them. Looks like I'm finally starting Eldar, too.
GaroRobe wrote: Only starter sets. Gw limiting the number of boxes drives individual unit prices up. Like Octarius kill team units went for $80
Sorry, I should clarify: I more meant old stuff. When these boxes come out - limited or not - the older kits in them flood out everywhere.
The best example is that Deathwatch/Eldar box from a while ago. The new stuff in there was the Deathwatch Vets, their HQ, and the plastic Eldrad. Everything else (Ven Dread, Vanguard Vets, Harlis, Harli Bikes, Harli Skimmer, Death Jester) was old stock - stuff that'd been out for ages - so bits sites were flooded with that gak. I picked up 24 Harlis - 4 boxes - for £20. Twenty pounds!!! A few weeks ago I got 9 Allarus Terminators for £60. Each box costs £30 normally.
I love that. Sadly, the forgefiends currently going for $60, the new units are $50, and characters are ~$40 on eBay. And individual chosen marines are $20. Fingers crossed at least some of those prices drop once the box is public.
GaroRobe wrote: I love that. Sadly, the forgefiends currently going for $60, the new units are $50, and characters are ~$40 on eBay. And individual chosen marines are $20. Fingers crossed at least some of those prices drop once the box is public.
Yea, eBayers gonna eBay. They do have to charge a bit more than the box costs to make up for not selling some of the models. That's why it's always better to split with a friend if you can.
You’d have to take Harken in an Aux, then-and you’d lose the super doctrine type ability, probably.
Right - he'd have to get the rule to be addable as an exception, which is unlikely for someone of his stature. There's still spawn, which I know Gad won't like. Not sure what else might have LD malus.
Yeah, no spawn in my Night Lords. No Black Legion defector either, my guys don't fight "under the banner of Abaddon" (ugh). The only help they'll get is Raptors. Which goes to show what's wrong with the trait: you shouldn't have to take specific units just to make it work. But I'm not worried. These are just leaks, and they're supposed to be coming from playtest rules. So, it's quite possible that they'll change. If not, I'll just use some of the custom traits that suit me better.
But enough of that, have you seen the full 360 views of the new Chosen? I won't be using those helmetless heads, but besides that, those are some real Veterans of the Long War.
I wonder how long until they're available separately on eBay......
That's assuming that the rules for Haarken remain the same. They could change dramatically for all we know.
And yeah, seeing all the detail on the backpacks, with chainswords and bolters held by tentacles, is a really nice touch. The models are gorgeous, I just wish there was more in the box.
GaroRobe wrote: I love that. Sadly, the forgefiends currently going for $60, the new units are $50, and characters are ~$40 on eBay. And individual chosen marines are $20. Fingers crossed at least some of those prices drop once the box is public.
Thank God i live in Poland, where my favourite reseller has the Chosen up for 35$ and the Forgefiend for 45$.
Gert wrote: Woah woah, hold up. There's actual proper Icons in this kit? Not just generic star and eye of Horus?
Yea you can see them here:
Spoiler:
They do seem fairly small, however.
The second sprue has a little chaos star circle on a pole, which I'm gonna take a wild guess and say the god specific icons will fit into that. Then you can use that on the champion's backpack instead of the current skull trophy rack.
)
strategems in the game already. It also bothers me that with only 3 base attacks and no invul, Chosen will not be able to beat Bladeguard in a straight fight. And that just feels wrong.
