A greatly depleted Ork revivalist faction fights rearguard actions against a Legion, stripping it of materials and equipment during the rush to Terra. Legions are forced to fight their way through, delays enabling staunch defenses of Imperial positions.
A Warseer suddenly launches a brutal campaign against warring Legions to avert their path away from a shrouded Craftworld. Both sides are caught up in strategic conflicts that draw them to the edge of a contested sector, before the Eldar suddenly withdrawl.
The endless curiosity of some Explorator Majori investigating sites of the Rangdan Xenocides leads to the accidental awakening of some Necron dynasty, which proceeds to carry out hostile activities against Imperial worlds. Contact records are lost in the havoc of the HH, as Loyalists and Traitors alike are forced to fight in order to withdraw.
Stories like this could fit into the Heresy without diminishing the overall setting.
Except we aren't writing a book, it's playing the game. As soon as a Xenos army shows up they have an equal chance to be played as any other faction (excluding the Legions) in the game and then we lose the point of the Heresy being the Heresy, it's now just 40k Lite. A short story or single game about the events you have described is an interesting story, having it be a possibility for every game played is not.
Spoiler:
tneva82 wrote: Besides how much non-crusade stuff there really is in HH? Aka how hard it would be to get aliens to HH game system by creating supplement for crusade.
Crusade involved lots of fighting vs aliens. And legions fought like legions as they weren't split yet.
Again, the Great Crusade is not an issue but IMO it then just becomes 40k with fewer options for Xenos players. As a community effort to help people transition from one ruleset to another I think it's fine but I don't see the point in doing it in any official capacity.
Xenos could be accommodated if they expand the Horus Heresy line to other "historical" time periods. For example, you could have a game set in the period immediately preceding Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade. But then the marine armies would look a lot different. They'd be organized into chapters and follow the Codex Astartes. GW would probably need to design a whole new line of miniatures to cover it properly.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I'm sorry, did I say anything about the trait? Or stratagems? Or relics? Let me check........nope, didn't mention any of that crap. I was talking about Jump Lords. Y'know, those guys that practically every Night Lords player has? The guys that lead our armies? Because they can actually keep up with them?
My army has been led by a Chaos Lord, with paired lightning claws and a Jump Pack since I started it twenty years ago. And no amount of tacked on and CCG inspired nonsense is going to replace that. But go on, keep defending whatever gw decides to strip away from CSM, or anyone else, just because they threw more stratagems at us.
I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.
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Gene St. Ealer wrote: Yep, and CSM 9e replaces your invalidated units and models with gimmicky wombo combo crap that we all seemed to have hated in 8e (I'm sure I could dig up scores of posts from folks in this thread on that topic), but the kneejerk contrarians have conveniently forgotten about all that.
Who is talking about combo wombo? I've seen nothing of the sort like the old codex had.
Okay, let's consider it another way -- what do you think is interesting/new besides bespoke rules for each Legion (we already had that from PA, it's just combined in one book now), or supercharged Legionaries/Possessed/Oblits? What Dudeface posted last page seems like the definition of a wombo combo to me.
I remember when Apothecaries were resurrecting ATVs at the start of 9th. People called it a competitive boogeyman (it didn't end up being one), but pretty much everybody agreed that it was super lame. Now CSM can respawn oblits and it's cool? It feels like many are evaluating this book with a different lens.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: On foot doesn't even work well because they removed lightning claws as a weapon option, too.
At that point you're basically proxying.
With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.
Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.
Daedalus81 wrote: I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.
Perhaps you should consider the concept of empathy then.
CSM players can be annoying (I'm including myself) because it seems like the complaints are never-ending. That being said, considering that the last Codex that is widely considered good (as in it ticks the boxes of a viable army and having good narrative rules) is now old enough to buy alcohol in the USA and the last book that ticked these boxes lasted less than 6 months (Traitor Legions Supplement during 7th) can you maybe understand why people are still angry? I'd even say that more established CSM players have had their armies invalidated than any other army so far in 9th, and the responses have been (at least in my experience):
1 - Just buy new stuff.
2 - Break apart your old stuff and put new stuff on.
3 - Stop complaining because the army rules are good (which might not even be very true).
Do you think any of the above are fair responses? Or do you maybe think that telling people who've had nothing but rubbish from GW for the past 20 odd years for their army are maybe justified in their anger?
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Daedalus81 wrote: With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.
Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.
Except it's not just about Deepstriking. A Terminator Lord doesn't work with Raptors or Talons who have much greater mobility for the rest of the game.
And also Daemon Princes are how much more expensive than a Chaos Lord? It's not lore purity that's the only problem here chief.
Daedalus81 wrote: I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.
Perhaps you should consider the concept of empathy then.
CSM players can be annoying (I'm including myself) because it seems like the complaints are never-ending. That being said, considering that the last Codex that is widely considered good (as in it ticks the boxes of a viable army and having good narrative rules) is now old enough to buy alcohol in the USA and the last book that ticked these boxes lasted less than 6 months (Traitor Legions Supplement during 7th) can you maybe understand why people are still angry? I'd even say that more established CSM players have had their armies invalidated than any other army so far in 9th, and the responses have been (at least in my experience):
1 - Just buy new stuff.
2 - Break apart your old stuff and put new stuff on.
3 - Stop complaining because the army rules are good (which might not even be very true).
Do you think any of the above are fair responses? Or do you maybe think that telling people who've had nothing but rubbish from GW for the past 20 odd years for their army are maybe justified in their anger?
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Daedalus81 wrote: With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.
Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.
Except it's not just about Deepstriking. A Terminator Lord doesn't work with Raptors or Talons who have much greater mobility for the rest of the game.
And also Daemon Princes are how much more expensive than a Chaos Lord? It's not lore purity that's the only problem here chief.
Don't forget the fact that we know the Daemon Prince Datasheet has an expiration date of a few months at best on it, and the fact GW basically lied about including Traitor Guard in the Codex (even if that latter one can be admittably called a pet peeve of mine, since I wanted to make a Cultist-heavy force)
Daedalus81 wrote: I get that. I don't agree with the level of emotional input.
Perhaps you should consider the concept of empathy then.
CSM players can be annoying (I'm including myself) because it seems like the complaints are never-ending. That being said, considering that the last Codex that is widely considered good (as in it ticks the boxes of a viable army and having good narrative rules) is now old enough to buy alcohol in the USA and the last book that ticked these boxes lasted less than 6 months (Traitor Legions Supplement during 7th) can you maybe understand why people are still angry? I'd even say that more established CSM players have had their armies invalidated than any other army so far in 9th, and the responses have been (at least in my experience):
1 - Just buy new stuff.
2 - Break apart your old stuff and put new stuff on.
3 - Stop complaining because the army rules are good (which might not even be very true).
Do you think any of the above are fair responses? Or do you maybe think that telling people who've had nothing but rubbish from GW for the past 20 odd years for their army are maybe justified in their anger?
I own thousands of points in CSM. I'm sure you do as well. Not all of them are going to hit the table.
At some point you either quit or get on with it. That isn't to say don't be upset, but carrying on for days about it? I don't know.
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Gert wrote: Except it's not just about Deepstriking. A Terminator Lord doesn't work with Raptors or Talons who have much greater mobility for the rest of the game.
And also Daemon Princes are how much more expensive than a Chaos Lord? It's not lore purity that's the only problem here chief.
180 for the DP. A Lord with a JP and appropriate weapon would be 110 to 130 sans mark ( if it existed ). I imagine people can find the points -- otherwise what the hell have they been doing all these other editions as units jump in and out of viability?
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Gene St. Ealer wrote: Okay, let's consider it another way -- what do you think is interesting/new besides bespoke rules for each Legion (we already had that from PA, it's just combined in one book now), or supercharged Legionaries/Possessed/Oblits? What Dudeface posted last page seems like the definition of a wombo combo to me.
I remember when Apothecaries were resurrecting ATVs at the start of 9th. People called it a competitive boogeyman (it didn't end up being one), but pretty much everybody agreed that it was super lame. Now CSM can respawn oblits and it's cool? It feels like many are evaluating this book with a different lens.
Did you mean this statement from him?
I mean a mark of slaanesh legionnaires unit with icon getting +1 to hit, fight first, fight twice via strat and the black mace on the champ and a balefire tome allowing diabolic strength isn't something interesting you could do before
This is a unit with a big investment that is super vulnerable. It has mostly chain sword attacks. You'll also need a 10 man so you don't get your relic basically wiped off the table.
To fight twice is 2CP, which is going to be a big ask in this mission set on top of the 1CP spent pre-game. It's a cute unit that gets 4 S6 AP2 attacks. What exactly is it going to judiciously murder? There have been much worse combos in 9th that people made videos on and no one ever talked about them again, because they take a ton of effort.
That' is a whole lot different than deepstriking slaanesh obliterators and blasting away with shoot twice and VotLW.
Resurrecting an Obliterator is spicy, but I've brought back multiple 40 point models in a game that are equally durable ( if not more so ).
Daedalus81 wrote: At some point you either quit or get on with it. That isn't to say don't be upset, but carrying on for days about it? I don't know.
People keep asking why CSM players aren't happy with the Codex or people say that those same CSM players are idiots/WAAC chuds because they want proper unit options. Doesn't take a lot to figure out why the anger has continued in this thread.
180 for the DP. A Lord with a JP and appropriate weapon would be 110 to 130 sans mark ( if it existed ). I imagine people can find the points -- otherwise what the hell have they been doing all these other editions as units jump in and out of viability?
Did you factor in Wings for the Prince or do they just come with them now. Bear in mind I don't have access to the Codex and am going off past experience of Daemon Princes being rightfully more expensive than a Chaos Lord.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Okay, let's consider it another way -- what do you think is interesting/new besides bespoke rules for each Legion (we already had that from PA, it's just combined in one book now), or supercharged Legionaries/Possessed/Oblits? What Dudeface posted last page seems like the definition of a wombo combo to me.
I remember when Apothecaries were resurrecting ATVs at the start of 9th. People called it a competitive boogeyman (it didn't end up being one), but pretty much everybody agreed that it was super lame. Now CSM can respawn oblits and it's cool? It feels like many are evaluating this book with a different lens.
Did you mean this statement from him?
I mean a mark of slaanesh legionnaires unit with icon getting +1 to hit, fight first, fight twice via strat and the black mace on the champ and a balefire tome allowing diabolic strength isn't something interesting you could do before
This is a unit with a big investment that is super vulnerable. It has mostly chain sword attacks. You'll also need a 10 man so you don't get your relic basically wiped off the table.
To fight twice is 2CP, which is going to be a big ask in this mission set on top of the 1CP spent pre-game. It's a cute unit that gets 4 S6 AP2 attacks. What exactly is it going to judiciously murder? There have been much worse combos in 9th that people made videos on and no one ever talked about them again, because they take a ton of effort.
That' is a whole lot different than deepstriking slaanesh obliterators and blasting away with shoot twice and VotLW.
Resurrecting an Obliterator is spicy, but I've brought back multiple 40 point models in a game that are equally durable ( if not more so ).
I don't have the dex yet, so I can't confirm, but with the Black Mace + all the accoutrements (i.e. all the dudes with chainswords fighting twice), it's a bunch (IIRC 12) of S8 AP2 D3 attacks on top of the chainswords. Is that not true? Anyway, it's not the point if it's good or not -- it's what everybody is excited about (that and possessed, and Abaddon I guess) and it totally seems like a CCG combo?
And sure, SOTs coming back are pretty spooky, but there's a vast gulf in the deadliness of an SOT versus an obliterator, even if durability is comparable.
Anyway, I don't see how these are not gimmicky designs. This is the exact sort of thing that propped up CSM 8e, it propped up Orks 9e, and when it was nerfed, everybody complained because those books sucked and were devoid of flavor. Seems like the path we're going down here (that, or the Oblits/Possessed/Abaddon lists will not be as good as expected, and then people will complain about the book being gimmicky and UP.)
Gert wrote: Did you factor in Wings for the Prince or do they just come with them now. Bear in mind I don't have access to the Codex and am going off past experience of Daemon Princes being rightfully more expensive than a Chaos Lord.
Yea - 120 + 35 wings + 10 sword + 15 mark.
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Gene St. Ealer wrote: I don't have the dex yet, so I can't confirm, but with the Black Mace + all the accoutrements (i.e. all the dudes with chainswords fighting twice), it's a bunch (IIRC 12) of S8 AP2 D3 attacks on top of the chainswords. Is that not true? Anyway, it's not the point if it's good or not -- it's what everybody is excited about (that and possessed, and Abaddon I guess) and it totally seems like a CCG combo?
And sure, SOTs coming back are pretty spooky, but there's a vast gulf in the deadliness of an SOT versus an obliterator, even if durability is comparable.
Anyway, I don't see how these are not gimmicky designs. This is the exact sort of thing that propped up CSM 8e, it propped up Orks 9e, and when it was nerfed, everybody complained because those books sucked and were devoid of flavor. Seems like the path we're going down here (that, or the Oblits/Possessed/Abaddon lists will not be as good as expected, and then people will complain about the book being gimmicky and UP.)
Right, if you get diabolic off and you fight twice you'd pick up 10 ( 4 + 1 for diabolic ) attacks like that, however the fight twice is at the end of the phase. If the unit is strong you'll take swing backs. If not then fight twice is irrelevant. And you have to worry about casualties on the way in ( and denies, 27% cast failure, 6% perils ). AP2 doesn't hold up well against AoC.
As it stands it is a highly customized unit that can do some serious hurt, but it also takes a little finesse to get it to the right place.
This, I feel, is why it is so different. I can react to it. I can't do much about deepstriking oblits getting pushed with 3+ CP.
Yeah, I don't disagree, I don't think 10 Marines is going to ruin anybody's day like Oblits might. But I still say it's all very gimmicky - nothing seems to stand on its own (besides Abaddon) the way Custodes and Tau and Eldar and Nids units do. Of course, those books are largely way too good but idk, termicide or 10 LC termis is *exactly* the sort of thing that seems to be missing to me. Futz with the keywords to keep it from being OP when combined with strats, I don't care; it's just a shame that it's gone.
There’s a big difference between resurrecting an oblit and an ATV. The main issue with the latter is the fact it’s classified as a bike but should really be a vehicle, especially with 8 wounds. Nobody really bitches about bringing back attack bikes, which is more similar to the obliterator wounds wise.
Gert wrote: Did you factor in Wings for the Prince or do they just come with them now. Bear in mind I don't have access to the Codex and am going off past experience of Daemon Princes being rightfully more expensive than a Chaos Lord.
Yea - 120 + 35 wings + 10 sword + 15 mark.
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Gene St. Ealer wrote: I don't have the dex yet, so I can't confirm, but with the Black Mace + all the accoutrements (i.e. all the dudes with chainswords fighting twice), it's a bunch (IIRC 12) of S8 AP2 D3 attacks on top of the chainswords. Is that not true? Anyway, it's not the point if it's good or not -- it's what everybody is excited about (that and possessed, and Abaddon I guess) and it totally seems like a CCG combo?
And sure, SOTs coming back are pretty spooky, but there's a vast gulf in the deadliness of an SOT versus an obliterator, even if durability is comparable.
Anyway, I don't see how these are not gimmicky designs. This is the exact sort of thing that propped up CSM 8e, it propped up Orks 9e, and when it was nerfed, everybody complained because those books sucked and were devoid of flavor. Seems like the path we're going down here (that, or the Oblits/Possessed/Abaddon lists will not be as good as expected, and then people will complain about the book being gimmicky and UP.)
Right, if you get diabolic off and you fight twice you'd pick up 10 ( 4 + 1 for diabolic ) attacks like that, however the fight twice is at the end of the phase. If the unit is strong you'll take swing backs. If not then fight twice is irrelevant. And you have to worry about casualties on the way in ( and denies, 27% cast failure, 6% perils ). AP2 doesn't hold up well against AoC.
As it stands it is a highly customized unit that can do some serious hurt, but it also takes a little finesse to get it to the right place.
This, I feel, is why it is so different. I can react to it. I can't do much about deepstriking oblits getting pushed with 3+ CP.
Oh I'm not advocating it'll wreck the game (although you've all missed that the d3 on the mace spills excess wounds over), but it's "interesting". It's a combination of stuff you couldn't do before and it makes the legionnaires unit here a serious threat as an example.
You'd all better hope that when they do the assembly instructions for the new daemon prince they don't decide that back-pack vents vs wings is the main differentiating feature between the 40k and AoS build.
JNAProductions wrote: "The new book is more powerful" is not the same as "The new book is better".
The new book is objectively better ( not that this was a high bar to beat ). I played with it this weekend and it was quite fun.
No, it isn't "objectively" better. It might be better for you, and lots of other people, but for some of us it isn't. Night Lords without a Jump Lord is complete .
Yea these sort of hyperbolic statements don't do it for me. The NL traits are all better. Some strats are powered down, but more flexible than just 3 ways to charge harder. The relics all appear to be improved other than losing 2+ on stormbolt.
But..."complete gak", I guess.
It's like reading those obnoxious new headlines. "Person SLAMS thing!" It's just over the top language.
I'm sorry, did I say anything about the trait? Or stratagems? Or relics? Let me check........nope, didn't mention any of that crap. I was talking about Jump Lords. Y'know, those guys that practically every Night Lords player has? The guys that lead our armies? Because they can actually keep up with them?
My army has been led by a Chaos Lord, with paired lightning claws and a Jump Pack since I started it twenty years ago. And no amount of tacked on and CCG inspired nonsense is going to replace that. But go on, keep defending whatever gw decides to strip away from CSM, or anyone else, just because they threw more stratagems at us.
There is a lot right with this codex as Daedalus implies, but there are some things not kosher. I believe the weapon restrictions are more of an annoyance but completely agree that the jump pack issue is more of a you move by GW that makes people sour. If they are willing to walk back on this (like the Eldar autarch), I think that would go a long way, even if it was just for the Lord.
I'd agree with that, though I'd say that having large swathes of models invalidated is more than just an "annoyance" for most people. The codex isn't bad functionally, and there is some good stuff in it, but the wargear restrictions are big deal breakers for many, and the loss of Jump Packs for characters is one of the worst. Fixing that would be a major fix for many (including myself).
Daedalus81 wrote:Who is talking about combo wombo? I've seen nothing of the sort like the old codex had.
Go look at the Dakka CSM tactics thread. It's almost nothing but Abaddon and: (X)+(Y)+(B)+(A)= SUPER KILLY/DURABLE! And without getting into specific examples, and whether or not they're actually viable, the issue is that most of the actual use anyone is finding for things in the codex involves stacking multiple traits, stratagems, psychic powers, and prayers on units, which is something many of us were hoping that the faction could get away from.
Daedalus81 wrote:With charges needing an 8 now from deepstrike ( when charging into area terrain ) I'd just take a claw terminator lord until GW fixes it.
Krieg Acerbus is also a DP from the biggest warband for Night Lords, so that IS an option for lore purists.
Besides the mechanical issues that Gert has pointed out, you have to remember that Acerbus was an antagonistic character that showed up for a few pages at the end of the Lord of the Night novel. The actual protagonist (though definitely not the "good guy") of the novel was Zso Sahaal, a Night Lords character very opposed to the use of Chaos by the Legion. And he used a Jump Pack and paired lightning claws. So, you can do one of several antagonistic characters in the novel, but not the "Star".
And though Acerbus proves that a Daemon Prince can be "lore accurate" for the Legion, you have to remember that one of the big draws of the Legion is the "we don't do Chaos worship" aspect of it (including myself). And a Daemon Prince doesn't really jive with that. So they may be "lore accurate" for the Legion as a whole, but not for some people's own particular armies, which goes straight against the "making your dudes YOUR DUDES" aspect of 40k.
Daedalus81 wrote:I own thousands of points in CSM. I'm sure you do as well. Not all of them are going to hit the table.
At some point you either quit or get on with it. That isn't to say don't be upset, but carrying on for days about it? I don't know.
Have you not seen myself and others pointing out that the Liber Hereticus is a FAR better suited option for anyone looking for actual customization and better overall rules than this codex? "Quiting" is definitely an option. And considering the massive superiority of the rules, both for the Legions and the Core rules, I definitely see myself trying to play a lot more HH in the future than 40k. But I'd like to be able to enjoy 40k as well, especially considering how much easier it is to get a game of 40k.
But you have to consider, if your only argument is "Don't like it? Then get out", then that's a pretty poor defense of the codex.
180 for the DP. A Lord with a JP and appropriate weapon would be 110 to 130 sans mark ( if it existed ). I imagine people can find the points -- otherwise what the hell have they been doing all these other editions as units jump in and out of viability?
We play what we like, and deal with it, whether it's "viable" or not. But if what we like is just gone, then even that isn't an option, is it? This isn't a matter of an option no longer being "viable", it's a matter of it just being gone.
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Abadabadoobaddon wrote: You'd all better hope that when they do the assembly instructions for the new daemon prince they don't decide that back-pack vents vs wings is the main differentiating feature between the 40k and AoS build.
bullyboy wrote: There’s a big difference between resurrecting an oblit and an ATV. The main issue with the latter is the fact it’s classified as a bike but should really be a vehicle, especially with 8 wounds. Nobody really bitches about bringing back attack bikes, which is more similar to the obliterator wounds wise.
I think there is a matter of immersion too. Obviously 40k pushes that in a lot of ways, but a medic, running up to a destroyed buggy with two pilots, using his ability to heal biological damage to restore the entire buggy and both pilots to complete health, THAT is a bit much. Comparatively the warp-spawned daemonic creature of flesh and metal fused together into an ever-shifting mass standing back up after being destroyed isn't very surprising.
Memnoch wrote: Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.
(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).
Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.
At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.
Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.
Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.
Memnoch wrote: Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.
(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).
Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.
At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.
Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.
Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.
Keep in mind that even if they take combi-weapons, they still have their accursed weapons. Chosen are melee unit who get to have a few special weapons thrown in. I converted a 5-man unit to have thunder hammers (silly me, apparently) and another with plasma guns. I'm just gonna mash them all together (with a random Chosen that has 2 lightning claws) and run 'em as one big, happy, Tzeentched-up mess.
Memnoch wrote: Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.
(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).
Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.
At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.
Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.
Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.
Keep in mind that even if they take combi-weapons, they still have their accursed weapons. Chosen are melee unit who get to have a few special weapons thrown in. I converted a 5-man unit to have thunder hammers (silly me, apparently) and another with plasma guns. I'm just gonna mash them all together (with a random Chosen that has 2 lightning claws) and run 'em as one big, happy, Tzeentched-up mess.
And.....Chaos Terminators still have their Accursed Weapons....
Memnoch wrote: Its bad enough losing the jumppack/wings for the Lord, but today I realised that you can no longer give Terminators twin LCs.
(Yeah a bit late to the party but anyway).
Ive no issue with shiny new stuff being must buys with new codexes but invalidating existing models in peoples collections is beyond frustrating.
At least termie lords still can take them, my biggest gripe is the lack of plasma rifles for chosen.
Chosen can still take combi-plasma tho? You can get up to 4 of them in a 10 man unit.
Which really isn't a lot and doesn't help make the unit shootier. I'd rather be limited and take 2 Combi-Melta and 1 Combi-Plasma on Chaos Terminators. Chosen just don't have anything going for them over Terminators besides being able to take an Icon. That's not a great advantage.
Keep in mind that even if they take combi-weapons, they still have their accursed weapons. Chosen are melee unit who get to have a few special weapons thrown in. I converted a 5-man unit to have thunder hammers (silly me, apparently) and another with plasma guns. I'm just gonna mash them all together (with a random Chosen that has 2 lightning claws) and run 'em as one big, happy, Tzeentched-up mess.
And.....Chaos Terminators still have their Accursed Weapons....
I hate this codex sometimes. Im going to miss my fallen angel plasma rirflemen squad...
Yes, clearly, the unit is now completely useless because it can only take four plasma guns instead of five. The Chosen plasma spam reign of terror has ended.
Yes, clearly, the unit is now completely useless because it can only take four plasma guns instead of five. The Chosen plasma spam reign of terror has ended.
Now do the comparison that has relevance with 5 models in a squad and 3 fewer plasma gun/combi-plasma.
Yes, clearly, the unit is now completely useless because it can only take four plasma guns instead of five. The Chosen plasma spam reign of terror has ended.
Actually they currently only get two, not four. And it looks like two Combis TOTAL. Even if it's dumb looking, I'd rather take the two Combi-Melta and one Combi-Plasma with Terminators.
They showed us a new demon prince that had the option to take a gun. but in the new codex there is only the old demon prince. Do we have to buy a new book if the new demon prince comes out ??
skeleton wrote: They showed us a new demon prince that had the option to take a gun. but in the new codex there is only the old demon prince. Do we have to buy a new book if the new demon prince comes out ??
GW is capable of publishing updated datasheets without books:
skeleton wrote: They showed us a new demon prince that had the option to take a gun. but in the new codex there is only the old demon prince. Do we have to buy a new book if the new demon prince comes out ??
GW is capable of publishing updated datasheets without books:
Those must be links to the CSM Kratos, the TS Kratos and the DG Kratos, strange there are only two, but I am not going to click on them to find out which one is missing.
skeleton wrote: They showed us a new demon prince that had the option to take a gun. but in the new codex there is only the old demon prince. Do we have to buy a new book if the new demon prince comes out ??
GW is capable of publishing updated datasheets without books:
Those must be links to the CSM Kratos, the TS Kratos and the DG Kratos, strange there are only two, but I am not going to click on them to find out which one is missing.
No. The updated Autarch after their boned-headed move of not putting rules in the Codex for the two models that were designed and advertised as cross-compatible plus the updated Captain in Gravis Armour and Primaris Champion datasheets.
Now I'm not saying will publish a PDF for the new Daemon Prince. The only thing GW does consistently is be inconsistent.
ph34r wrote: So wait, Master of Possession, uh is this model not able to be purchased any more? Just in an OOP start collecting box? I'm loving it
Along with the venomcrawler and oblits.
A query I raised in the killteam thread - CSM boxes have been reboxed as "Chaos legionnaires" without the upgrade sprue, the killteam squad is also called "Chaos legionnaires". So there's a naming conflict but more importantly I assume the Killteam box will cost more for the extra sprue at this point?
ph34r wrote: So wait, Master of Possession, uh is this model not able to be purchased any more? Just in an OOP start collecting box? I'm loving it
Along with the venomcrawler and oblits.
A query I raised in the killteam thread - CSM boxes have been reboxed as "Chaos legionnaires" without the upgrade sprue, the killteam squad is also called "Chaos legionnaires". So there's a naming conflict but more importantly I assume the Killteam box will cost more for the extra sprue at this point?
Wait what? Did they really remove those models? Those just came out!
NinthMusketeer wrote: Back in the day army books had rules for units before their models were released.
Then chapterhouse happened and army books went to only having rules for units that had current models.
So a codex having rules for units that no longer have models seems like the natural progression
No, the natural progression is Codexes not having rules for all models that are currently available, of course. Which, funnily enough, is also the case with the CSM Coded.
ph34r wrote: So wait, Master of Possession, uh is this model not able to be purchased any more? Just in an OOP start collecting box? I'm loving it
Along with the venomcrawler and oblits.
A query I raised in the killteam thread - CSM boxes have been reboxed as "Chaos legionnaires" without the upgrade sprue, the killteam squad is also called "Chaos legionnaires". So there's a naming conflict but more importantly I assume the Killteam box will cost more for the extra sprue at this point?
Wait what? Did they really remove those models? Those just came out!
Hey, they can't even be bothered to tell people why they aren't selling the brand new models either.
Havocs/Marines/Terminators and the assorted characters are the most recent chaos models they actually sell.
Shadowspear? gone
Chosen and warpsmith? Nope.
Assorted cultists, possessed, etc? Nowhere to be found.
Oh, but the kill team sprue for legionnaires will be on the shelf soon.
A pure triumph of a model range and release!
drbored wrote: Honestly at this point I can only assume that GW is trying not to let out that there's a big mess-up somewhere in the distribution chain.
Companies don't like admitting or letting slip that they've messed up in some way since that invites lawsuits from shareholders.
Silence is all we're going to get until the models finally do release.
I mean, they've been pretty clear about that, what with the pandemic and the global supply chain catastrophe.
ph34r wrote: So wait, Master of Possession, uh is this model not able to be purchased any more? Just in an OOP start collecting box? I'm loving it
The assumption is that he will be released as a clamshell character since he's on his own sprue.
We're kind of hoping that the Obliterators and Venomcrawler are also released separately in some fashion. They share a sprue, I believe, so whether that's going to be as a retail box or mail order only is uncertain. If it happens at all, of course.
But as said above, Chaos models are delayed for whatever reason and GW doesn't feel like telling us, so who knows if and when any of that happens.
drbored wrote: Honestly at this point I can only assume that GW is trying not to let out that there's a big mess-up somewhere in the distribution chain.
Companies don't like admitting or letting slip that they've messed up in some way since that invites lawsuits from shareholders.
Silence is all we're going to get until the models finally do release.
I mean, they've been pretty clear about that, what with the pandemic and the global supply chain catastrophe.
Yes, they have been very open in some cases. In others, total silence.
I feel like I, too, should steal HBMC's line and put it here.
As much as I hate paying $70 for the guys with the upgrades, I do need more spikey marines. Though I would rather they sold the upgrade sprue separately. But I don't think they have done that with any Kill Team boxes yet, have they?
bullyboy wrote: It’s $65 for the kill team set, not $70. So paying $5 for the upgrade sprue seems a no brainer
The heavy chainaxe is fun, since it effectively gives you an extra power fist.
Shrivetalon and Anointed don't have 40k rules but they're neat conversion bits.
Reaper Chaincannon is pretty nice, especially paired with a Heavy Bolter in a ranged squad, helps up the dakka.
The Daemon Blade and Baleflame Tome are decent options to add some mortal wounds to your army.
For many of them however, I wouldn't recommend putting them all into the same squad, so really, getting one box of the Kill Team Legionaries and a couple boxes of the regular Chaos Marines will help you save... 5 bucks and stretch those bits.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Why couldn't they have announced those would be released on X date back when the codex hit?
GW never announces when a model will be released before the announcement of the next week's preorder. Why would be any different in this case? The only reason to panic buy is impatience.
You know I've finally figured out what annoys me about modern Chaos Marine Models, and it's the fact that practically every marine wears a loincloth/loinchainmail. I find that it makes the model looks too busy and it is unsuitable for the less ritualistic of the chaos legions (Iron warriors, Night lords, World Eaters, etc.)
Scottywan82 wrote: And they confirmed the cultists box is Autopistol and CCW only, no weapon options and no Autoguns. What a worthless release.
I'm quietly expecting them to be a fair bit more than the £20 I'd be willing to pay for them as well.
The price doesn't even get to be a factor for me. I can't imagine why I'd ever run them with pistols and close combat weapons. It's less than half of what should be in there. Just pathetically lazy. They could be £10 and I'd still pass.
Make a fething box with the proper options, you useless sacks of gak.
So, Obliterators finally get a (sort of) separate box. Be interesting to see the pricing on that, as you'll need 2 boxes to build a full squad (and then you'll have one extra model left over).
Really puzzled by how GW continues to treat Chaos. Cultists are a main part of the Codex since 6th Edition, yet they only ever get some monopose leftover models.
Obliterators are one of the strongest units edition after edition, and one of the most iconic, but still languished in Failcast for eternity only to get replaced by monopose models from a Starterbox. Apparently GW couldn't care to make a proper Set for them combining them with Mutilators (as everybody expected them to do since shadowspear), so they just rerelease a sprue that should have never stopped being sold to begin with.
I get the feeling that GW learned in 6th / 7th they have to do something with CSM, but outside of DG and TS they really don't know what to do with the army and models, so Codex and models are a strange Patchwork again and again. Which is bad when they're supposed to represent the main evil guys and when they have the same roots as the poster boys.
So to sum up - we got a codex that took away half our options (again), it's taking ages for the new models to be released, and when the models ARE released they will be monopose with not even a weapon swap. At this point I get the sense that there is actual malice towards CSM as a faction from somewhere in GW. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.
Every few years I get the urge to pick up my paintbrush again, only to get smacked away with more disappointment. I can sort of accept the ruleswriting being almost criminally negligent because I came into this hobby right when the 3.5 book was on its way out, so I don't even remember a time when Chaos had decent rules. But when not even the miniatures hold up, when said miniatures are supposed to be where all the money comes from, what's even the point of the release? I can't express how much it frustrates me to look around the internet and see all these circular arguments about whether Night Lords have been screwed over when even as a Word Bearer, for whom this codex is supposedly a buff and for whom the models are pretty blatantly geared towards, I can't get excited.
I've yet to see any evidence that the Possessed will have more than one or two spare bits. Possessed. I'd love to be wrong but at this point it really looks like what should be the weirdest and most diverse unit in the game is being reduced to the same five models forever. They don't even look that mutated compared to the rest of the range. I can hear the cries of "just convert bro" and I'd be joining that chorus if GW didn't actively make it such a pain in the rear to do any converting because the head is actually part of the backpack and the right hand is the same bit as the left foot and the torso is cut three billion different directions. Is it Chapterhouse's fault? Is it Rountree's leadership? What happened to this company? Why is it that every time I think about GW I think "gee I miss the Kirby era more and more every day"? How is that even possible?
/existential crisis. The Long War continues, brothers.
And I guess just so that this post has a sliver of positivity, it's pretty nice that the Kill Team box is only $5 extra. Now if only it had an autocannon so we had access to the options GW actually deigned to give us.
I'm scratching my head right now trying to work out which of these models are re-releases from various boxes and which are completely new - especially since we keep seeing stuff in previews.
Cultists Box - ???
Dark Commune - New?
Chosen - uhhh....?
Warpsmith - this was in one of those 2-army boxes, right?
Warpforged - and I believe so were these. Shadowspear?
Anyone able to help me out? GW's constant limited releases and re-releases make some of this stuff as clear as mud!
Azazelx wrote: I'm scratching my head right now trying to work out which of these models are re-releases from various boxes and which are completely new - especially since we keep seeing stuff in previews.
Cultists Box - ???
Dark Commune - New?
Chosen - uhhh....?
Warpsmith - this was in one of those 2-army boxes, right?
Warpforged - and I believe so were these. Shadowspear?
Anyone able to help me out? GW's constant limited releases and re-releases make some of this stuff as clear as mud!
Cultists and Dark Commune are new, everything else is a re-relase.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Really puzzled by how GW continues to treat Chaos. Cultists are a main part of the Codex since 6th Edition, yet they only ever get some monopose leftover models.
The weirdest thing is, these aren't leftovers. This is chaos cultists attempt #6, in an actual box. This what they thought chaos players wanted.... for some reason.
Really old metals
6th/7th edition starter sets (mix of rifles, pistol/ccw and even a few special weapons.)
BSF traitor guard (mix)
BSF Cultists of the Abyss (mix)
KT traitor guard (mix)
and now... this. Somehow this is what they settled on after years of flailing with the concept of cultists. This is worse than everything that came before, and I can't even begin to fathom why they did these and the KT traitors at the same time, but chose these to go in the codex and left out the traitor guard.
The worst part is, I actually like these as individual sculpts. They're good-looking, have character and aren't over-wrought or overly ornate.
But for game pieces they're the absolute last way I'd field them on the table. And no options.
The distance between Eldritch Omens coming out in February and finally getting the Warpsmith and Chosen here in July is pretty insane.
Just need the Possessed, Accursed Cultists, and Master of Possession, which I'm expecting to be the next wave, HOPEFULLY the following week, but who knows, really? Could be another month before we see them as GW prioritizes things like Warcry and Underworlds instead.
As for the Cultists, I fully expect Chaos Marine 10th edition codex to get rid of any options that cultists have and limit them to just close combat weapons and pistols. They're just trying to sell more of the Cultists of the Abyss (soon to be reboxed as 'Cultist Warband') which has your autoguns, grenade launcher, and heavy stubber. Oh, but of course only 4 autoguns, so you'll need 2 boxes for enough models for a squad of 10... but that spits in the face of GW doing 'just in the box'... but then it remains inconsistent, so it seems to check out.
Voss wrote: The weirdest thing is, these aren't leftovers. This is chaos cultists attempt #6, in an actual box. This what they thought chaos players wanted.... for some reason.
Really old metals
6th/7th edition starter sets (mix of rifles, pistol/ccw and even a few special weapons.)
BSF traitor guard (mix)
BSF Cultists of the Abyss (mix)
KT traitor guard (mix)
and now... this. Somehow this is what they settled on after years of flailing with the concept of cultists. This is worse than everything that came before, and I can't even begin to fathom why they did these and the KT traitors at the same time, but chose these to go in the codex and left out the traitor guard.
The worst part is, I actually like these as individual sculpts. They're good-looking, have character and aren't over-wrought or overly ornate.
But for game pieces they're the absolute last way I'd field them on the table. And no options.
This is exactly it. I was over the moon when I saw rumors of plastic cultists in a real box. When they previewed them and they matched the BSF cultists, I was ready to dole out cash for them on the spot. What could possibly have been going on that they genuinely thought this loadout with monopose figures was what ANYONE wanted? This was a waste of everyone's time. The sculptor, the painters, the marketing team, the customers. This hasn't even released and I am already back where I was when BSF came out: wondering when - if ever - we will get a real fething set of cultists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: As for the Cultists, I fully expect Chaos Marine 10th edition codex to get rid of any options that cultists have and limit them to just close combat weapons and pistols. They're just trying to sell more of the Cultists of the Abyss (soon to be reboxed as 'Cultist Warband') which has your autoguns, grenade launcher, and heavy stubber. Oh, but of course only 4 autoguns, so you'll need 2 boxes for enough models for a squad of 10... but that spits in the face of GW doing 'just in the box'... but then it remains inconsistent, so it seems to check out.
If that is genuinely their expectation for customer behavior, I suggest they wish for it in one hand and gak in the other, and see which one gets filled first.
Voss wrote: The weirdest thing is, these aren't leftovers. This is chaos cultists attempt #6, in an actual box. This what they thought chaos players wanted.... for some reason.
Really old metals
6th/7th edition starter sets (mix of rifles, pistol/ccw and even a few special weapons.)
BSF traitor guard (mix)
BSF Cultists of the Abyss (mix)
KT traitor guard (mix)
and now... this. Somehow this is what they settled on after years of flailing with the concept of cultists. This is worse than everything that came before, and I can't even begin to fathom why they did these and the KT traitors at the same time, but chose these to go in the codex and left out the traitor guard.
The worst part is, I actually like these as individual sculpts. They're good-looking, have character and aren't over-wrought or overly ornate.
But for game pieces they're the absolute last way I'd field them on the table. And no options.
This is exactly it. I was over the moon when I saw rumors of plastic cultists in a real box. When they previewed them and they matched the BSF cultists, I was ready to dole out cash for them on the spot. What could possibly have been going on that they genuinely thought this loadout with monopose figures was what ANYONE wanted? This was a waste of everyone's time. The sculptor, the painters, the marketing team, the customers. This hasn't even released and I am already back where I was when BSF came out: wondering when - if ever - we will get a real fugging set of cultists.
So you mean, exactly how they did it when they made a new Boyz kit? Picking the worst loadout possible and giving no other options?
H.B.M.C. wrote: And the Firebrand is now just a Cultist with a Heavy Flamer.
Despite the fact that the dude is so juiced up, he's basically the size of a space marine. Nice.
The inconsistency of GW also ticks me off. So the cultist kit that is coming out presumably doesn't have special weapon options. But the BSF cultist do. So you can include those special weapons in your unit, but only if you buy both kits, right?
So why can't we do the same with other kits? Why are the chosen options so limited to what is strictly in the kit (and even then, not every option from that kit)?
I have the feeling these new Cultist models might be some rejects or alternate models they made when creating BSF (that's why I called them leftover in the other post). Or maybe the Designer did them in their free time and suggested GW to make a proper kit out of them together with the Abyss guys. For the people who can't use 3rd party models because they have to play in a GW I hope these come pretty cheap at least.
I haven't found an exact match at a glance but that bracket should translate to 36€, I think. More expensive than they should be, but less excessive than they might have been.
The Obliterators and Venomcrawler aren't on the list, which probably makes them direct only. On the bright side that means I still get to predict price. Everybody loves a good guessing game! So I'm going to say part of a start collecting box for the price of a start collecting box. That seems like GW's latest approach, albeit most accurately seen on terrain components of big boxes.
I haven't found an exact match at a glance but that bracket should translate to 36€, I think. More expensive than they should be, but less excessive than they might have been.
The Obliterators and Venomcrawler aren't on the list, which probably makes them direct only. On the bright side that means I still get to predict price. Everybody loves a good guessing game! So I'm going to say part of a start collecting box for the price of a start collecting box. That seems like GW's latest approach, albeit most accurately seen on terrain components of big boxes.
Or more than sc. Like fyreslayer magmadroth that got higher price than sc and lost 10 vulkite berserkers in process. Good thing got sc while i could and now am on magmadroth avoidance. I stick witth 3 sc one's i have
Interesting. I didn't know that was still in use. 35€ items got bumped to 36€ and I think 37€ by the price increases of the last years.
But hey, I'll take it.
tneva82 wrote: Or more than sc. Like fyreslayer magmadroth that got higher price than sc and lost 10 vulkite berserkers in process. Good thing got sc while i could and now am on magmadroth avoidance. I stick witth 3 sc one's i have
Luckily I'm hyper positive about GW and expect their prices to only be super dumb, not super dumb +1. Go positivity!
But more seriously, I'm reluctant to draw on Fyrslyrs for comparison because it seems that GW has sabotaged that army in every imaginable way, and it may not be reflective of how other armies are treated. Even if Chaos Marines have gotten more than their share of bogus treatment.
That's the price of pox walkers plus new model tax. Pretty much what I expected.
The difference there is the pox walkers are widely available from the combat patrols and years of dark imperium + various magazines existing. I appreciate GW doesn't think that way but as a "consoomer", cultists are way harder to come by.
*looks up from painting up another DKOK kill team as DG cultists*
You were saying?
On a more serious note, it's not hard to guess the prices of infantry boxes. Just find a box with similar number of models and options released since the start of 8th and then add 1.5-6.5 GBP depending on how many price hikes have happend since their release.
Scottywan82 wrote: And they confirmed the cultists box is Autopistol and CCW only, no weapon options and no Autoguns. What a worthless release.
So how those who want pistol&ccw have zero value?
Hyperbole is strong.
Who actually wants that loadout? I'm not really seeing any good use for such a unit? S3, T3, they'll have 1 attack plus 1 for the CCW and a pistol shot in the shooting phase. Hitting on 4s.
What exactly is that unit meant to do that a unit armed with rifles cannot do while at the same time having better shooting?
And again, people are not saying that the kit shouldn't have pistols and CCWs, just that it should also have rifles so people have a choice.
Scottywan82 wrote: And they confirmed the cultists box is Autopistol and CCW only, no weapon options and no Autoguns. What a worthless release.
So how those who want pistol&ccw have zero value?
Hyperbole is strong.
Who actually wants that loadout? I'm not really seeing any good use for such a unit? S3, T3, they'll have 1 attack plus 1 for the CCW and a pistol shot in the shooting phase. Hitting on 4s.
What exactly is that unit meant to do that a unit armed with rifles cannot do while at the same time having better shooting?
And again, people are not saying that the kit shouldn't have pistols and CCWs, just that it should also have rifles so people have a choice.
If we had an actual decent mortal follower dex, (like we had) with a reason to use that loadout (like we had) ...
Scottywan82 wrote: And they confirmed the cultists box is Autopistol and CCW only, no weapon options and no Autoguns. What a worthless release.
So how those who want pistol&ccw have zero value?
Hyperbole is strong.
Who actually wants that loadout? I'm not really seeing any good use for such a unit? S3, T3, they'll have 1 attack plus 1 for the CCW and a pistol shot in the shooting phase. Hitting on 4s.
What exactly is that unit meant to do that a unit armed with rifles cannot do while at the same time having better shooting?
And again, people are not saying that the kit shouldn't have pistols and CCWs, just that it should also have rifles so people have a choice.
If we had an actual decent mortal follower dex, (like we had) with a reason to use that loadout (like we had) ...
if only...
Yeah, you'd think with so many cultist kits being added, they'd be worthwhile additions to the codex. But no.
And with the mutants and torments as a better CC unit (but still inferior to piles of CSM options), you'd think a shooty cultist unit would be a priority.
Its a mess and a dumb design decision no matter what metrics you're using.
I have been known to play "how many cultists can i field" games and it honestly never matterd if they were melee or ranged. Rule of cool all the way, Baby!
Would love some alternative bitz in the box but we will see about that in the sprue -picture.
(Also: everything human sized is a cultists if you do a bit of kitbashing. So they for me are the one kit that has the best alternatives if you are dissatisfied with it)
The cultist HQ is expensive - but that was expected and they are a one-of by for me anyways, so i can accept it.
Chosen? Gotta be honest with you: the kit is not impressive enough to justify me getting more than the ones i got for cheap from the battlebox. Absolutely a missed opportunity and not worth the price compared to the still expensive but good looking Legionaries.
Scottywan82 wrote: And they confirmed the cultists box is Autopistol and CCW only, no weapon options and no Autoguns. What a worthless release.
So how those who want pistol&ccw have zero value?
Hyperbole is strong.
Who actually wants that loadout? I'm not really seeing any good use for such a unit? S3, T3, they'll have 1 attack plus 1 for the CCW and a pistol shot in the shooting phase. Hitting on 4s.
What exactly is that unit meant to do that a unit armed with rifles cannot do while at the same time having better shooting?
And again, people are not saying that the kit shouldn't have pistols and CCWs, just that it should also have rifles so people have a choice.
If we had an actual decent mortal follower dex, (like we had) with a reason to use that loadout (like we had) ...
if only...
Yeah, you'd think with so many cultist kits being added, they'd be worthwhile additions to the codex. But no.
And with the mutants and torments as a better CC unit (but still inferior to piles of CSM options), you'd think a shooty cultist unit would be a priority.
Its a mess and a dumb design decision no matter what metrics you're using.
We got this nugget yesterday:
Warhammer Community wrote:The Warpforged – consisting of a skittering Venomcrawler and two hulking Obliterators – are the perfect way to add heavy firepower to your warband, adding a ranged counterweight to all your close-combat specialists. Not that they won’t get stuck into the melee given a chance – they are aligned to Chaos, after all.
As much as we joke (or "joke") about it, there's a very real chance that Chaos is actually seen as an NPC faction by the designers whose imagination for the faction never extends to plausible motivations and means to achieve their goals. Who needs esoteric crap like that for these weird cultist guys anyway? They're aligned to Chaos, after all...
Actually, nevermind the fact Chosen have so little alternative bits and options - do they even have enough bits to make the default loadout? Because I'm pretty sure it only comes with 2 Bolt Pistols, and you need 5 for a fully WYSIWYG squad.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Actually, nevermind the fact Chosen have so little alternative bits and options - do they even have enough bits to make the default loadout? Because I'm pretty sure it only comes with 2 Bolt Pistols, and you need 5 for a fully WYSIWYG squad.
Every model has a pistol. Holsters. They're a thing. Look them up.
Yeah, none of this surprises me. I'm pretty sure several people called it a couple of times in the 170+ pages before this one that this is what would happen to the oblits+venomcrawler.
As for the autogun cultists, I figure it's easier just to use the Traitor Guard. Since it's not listed as an 'autogun' but instead a 'cultist firearm' it could be just about anything.
And then, once you've built those, GW will release a datasheet for the traitor guard that will also have a bunch of nonsensical restrictions so you can only build what's in the box.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing a Redditor noticed is this:
So at the very least it looks like there will be more options for your Cultists, at least for some arm and head swaps.
drbored wrote: Yeah, none of this surprises me. I'm pretty sure several people called it a couple of times in the 170+ pages before this one that this is what would happen to the oblits+venomcrawler.
As for the autogun cultists, I figure it's easier just to use the Traitor Guard. Since it's not listed as an 'autogun' but instead a 'cultist firearm' it could be just about anything.
And then, once you've built those, GW will release a datasheet for the traitor guard that will also have a bunch of nonsensical restrictions so you can only build what's in the box.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One thing a Redditor noticed is this:
So at the very least it looks like there will be more options for your Cultists, at least for some arm and head swaps.
Interesting, I wonder if the tentacles and the like make for appropriate accursed cultists?
Awesome to see at least some models will have an alternate build.
Although its a completely different arm (since it's got tentacle fusion and spikes), I don't like how similar both arms are. The armor looks similar and the sword looks identical (from what we can see). It looks basically like a head swap and tentacle addition, and not a completely new arm
H.B.M.C. wrote: Weird that you'd make a kit with alternate heads/arms that just build the same config, and not include the rifle option.
Maybe there're only options for one of the arms and the head for each cultist. Sure, three of the BSF cultists wield their autogun in only one hand, but they don't have a CC weapon (nor pistols) in the other.
Well, alternative heads are always welcome - especially for those masks. They're okay, but having the option is good.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Weird that you'd make a kit with alternate heads/arms that just build the same config, and not include the rifle option.
Maybe there're only options for one of the arms and the head for each cultist. Sure, three of the BSF cultists wield their autogun in only one hand, but they don't have a CC weapon (nor pistols) in the other.
Well, alternative heads are always welcome - especially for those masks. They're okay, but having the option is good.
Agreed. Even if the only option is the head for most of the models, being able to forego the weird masks will be great.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Weird that you'd make a kit with alternate heads/arms that just build the same config, and not include the rifle option.
Just what I was about to say too. Again, this entire box is a waste. They might as well have not released anything for cultists if this half-job was all they could muster.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Weird that you'd make a kit with alternate heads/arms that just build the same config, and not include the rifle option.
Maybe there're only options for one of the arms and the head for each cultist. Sure, three of the BSF cultists wield their autogun in only one hand, but they don't have a CC weapon (nor pistols) in the other.
Well, alternative heads are always welcome - especially for those masks. They're okay, but having the option is good.
Agreed. Even if the only option is the head for most of the models, being able to forego the weird masks will be great.
While I don't have a problem with the masks per se, I'm not going to say no to extra heads, bare or otherwise. If the box of ten makes twenty models without overt clones, it's a big step up from previous cultists even if half their wargear is missing. Baby steps, I guess.
While i wholeheartedly support the ignore button in this Forum one does not need too much hyperbole to Interpret
"They might as well have not released anything for cultists if this half-job was all they could muster."
as " it is not what i want and i am the only thing that matters ".
Or to play an my favorite tune: what happened to "it is not what i wanted but i am happy for everyone who does like it "?
Anyway: is GW still doing alternating weeks (AoS/40k/Specialists) or is there a chance we get the mutants ( Cultists and Mahreenz) sooner than in a month?
Anyway: is GW still doing alternating weeks (AoS/40k/Specialists) or is there a chance we get the mutants ( Cultists and Mahreenz) sooner than in a month?
this said BOB from War of sigmar:
note : The chaos mutant and large mutant release have been slowed to end of august (last minute decision from gw so I guess it must be a production delay)
Does that mean it's an alternate build for an alternate Sergant of the unit? So we can give them a Boltpistol and a Chainsword?
That could explain the tentacle making them stand out more. Though since this is a chaos unit, all the weapons for cultist may just be grouped together
Not all of them. No fists for Chosen. No claws for Raptor Champs. Same asinine weapon limits on combi-weapons/fists/chainfists in Terminator units. And the Exalted Champ still has to take a Combi-Weapon.
No mutilators also. You know, an actual model that GW sold.
I don't know why that one rubs me the wrong way so much. I never bought the kit (let's all admit it, it was pants, but so were the old oblit models) but I converted up 6 of them. I know I'm not the only one. I don't know why the utter apathy and derision for their fanbase ever surprises me, but yet it happens every time. I guess I'm the sucker.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Not all of them. No fists for Chosen. No claws for Raptor Champs. Same asinine weapon limits on combi-weapons/fists/chainfists in Terminator units. And the Exalted Champ still has to take a Combi-Weapon.
And apparently lightning claws are "free" for Chaos Lords, as they don't have a price. Typical low effort . Whelp, guess Night Lords are a Legends army now.
Kinetochore wrote:And still no lightning claws :-(
And, incidentally, no Chaos Kratos rules, despite saying they will look at it 5 weeks ago
Gw obviously thinks that it makes more sense for a bunch of Primaris Marines with shiny new Cawl Tech weapons, power armour, and floating tanks to have HH era vehicles than, y'know, actual veterans of the Horus Heresy. We get dinobots instead. Can't wait to see how badly they screw up our fw units. /s
Kinetochore wrote:Also bothers me there's no power level for Lord with Jump pack.
I like a freebie as much as the next man but no power level cost to upgrade your Lord to have a jump pack in crusade seems a bit OP
Says jump packs are +1PL for Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Not all of them. No fists for Chosen. No claws for Raptor Champs. Same asinine weapon limits on combi-weapons/fists/chainfists in Terminator units. And the Exalted Champ still has to take a Combi-Weapon.
And apparently lightning claws are "free" for Chaos Lords, as they don't have a price. Typical low effort . Whelp, guess Night Lords are a Legends army now.
Because the baked in cost of the Thunderhammer and Plasma pistol cover it. Note that they DO have costs for models that don't come with the book base load out.
That said, not sure why the Exalted has to pay for his.
I don't know why that one rubs me the wrong way so much. I never bought the kit (let's all admit it, it was pants, but so were the old oblit models) but I converted up 6 of them. I know I'm not the only one. I don't know why the utter apathy and derision for their fanbase ever surprises me, but yet it happens every time. I guess I'm the sucker.
They weren't in the prior book, right? I can't even remember at the moment. I'm guessing they just let those fall off the radar.
Sad that they're officially legendeding jump packs.
I don't know why that one rubs me the wrong way so much. I never bought the kit (let's all admit it, it was pants, but so were the old oblit models) but I converted up 6 of them. I know I'm not the only one. I don't know why the utter apathy and derision for their fanbase ever surprises me, but yet it happens every time. I guess I'm the sucker.
They weren't in the prior book, right? I can't even remember at the moment. I'm guessing they just let those fall off the radar.
Sad that they're officially legendeding jump packs.
Mutilators were absolutely in the 8e book. They only stopped selling them when the 9e codex went on pre-order IIRC, same as the jump pack lord.
Not Online!!! wrote:So when will SM lose access to HH units, HQ on bikes, HQ with Juppacks?
merely curious, is all.
They won't, and we all know it. Worst case scenario? They lose jump packs for firstborn, but they're immediately replaced by a shiny new Primaris HQ with a Jump Pack. In fact, that's already in the rumour mill, isn't it?
And the only reason we have HH stuff is because fw gave them to us in IA13. They only remain because they're grandfathered in. Give them time.....
I don't know why that one rubs me the wrong way so much. I never bought the kit (let's all admit it, it was pants, but so were the old oblit models) but I converted up 6 of them. I know I'm not the only one. I don't know why the utter apathy and derision for their fanbase ever surprises me, but yet it happens every time. I guess I'm the sucker.
They weren't in the prior book, right? I can't even remember at the moment. I'm guessing they just let those fall off the radar.
Sad that they're officially legendeding jump packs.
Yes, Mutilators were in the 8th edition codex.
And yes, it's "sad" that they're basically sending the most iconic HQs of an entire Legion to Legends. But hey, Black Legion still get one, don't they?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Not all of them. No fists for Chosen. No claws for Raptor Champs. Same asinine weapon limits on combi-weapons/fists/chainfists in Terminator units. And the Exalted Champ still has to take a Combi-Weapon.
And apparently lightning claws are "free" for Chaos Lords, as they don't have a price. Typical low effort . Whelp, guess Night Lords are a Legends army now.
So you think lightning claws should be more expensive than thunderhammer and plasma pistol? As price of those is on lord so if lc cost more you are paying th+whatever price you apply to lc
H.B.M.C. wrote:Not all of them. No fists for Chosen. No claws for Raptor Champs. Same asinine weapon limits on combi-weapons/fists/chainfists in Terminator units. And the Exalted Champ still has to take a Combi-Weapon.
And apparently lightning claws are "free" for Chaos Lords, as they don't have a price. Typical low effort . Whelp, guess Night Lords are a Legends army now.
So you think lightning claws should be more expensive than thunderhammer and plasma pistol? As price of those is on lord so if lc cost more you are paying th+whatever price you apply to lc
No, I don't. So I was wrong for pointing that out. And it's already been covered. Do you feel better now?
Not Online!!! wrote: So when will SM lose access to HH units, HQ on bikes, HQ with Juppacks?
merely curious, is all.
To be fair, they Legended a bunch of that stuff for Loyalists too.
This is more stupid though since the Jump Lord was literally still for sale not long ago.
It was sarcasm and cynism to convey my disruntlement at the utter dogshit inconsitency of this dex and its design choices in the grand scheme of things.
I want to make it clear that i am NOT advocating for SM to loose first born options. ( i am sure though that consolidation of intercessors would go a long way which is ALSO not removal of options).
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
You mean the implications of what happened a month ago and you personally have discussed about 5 times already in here? I want to see news and or rumours in the thread, release dates, options we don't know about etc. a 57th rant about night lord HQ's isn't helping at this point. Want to whine? Go do it in the general thread.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
See above, not the place. The legends coming out is news, moaning about stuff in the codex is not.
EviscerationPlague wrote: > lazy Legends update happens
> nooooo don't discuss it since it'll ruin my perception of GW!!!!1!
Well it changed neither my perception of GW nor yourself. Please, continue to discuss about how the lack of a jump pack lord is a shock for another 3 weeks.
What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
You mean the implications of what happened a month ago and you personally have discussed about 5 times already in here? I want to see news and or rumours in the thread, release dates, options we don't know about etc. a 57th rant about night lord HQ's isn't helping at this point. Want to whine? Go do it in the general thread.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
See above, not the place. The legends coming out is news, moaning about stuff in the codex is not.
Time to whine about the legends then, and the fact they didn't include the non-gutted versions of Chosen and Termies.
Clearly there are no termies from before the 8th edition release Wha.
Clearly all that have converted and specialised theirs from the 8th ed are WAAC garbage that infests this community and needs to be purged..
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
You mean the implications of what happened a month ago and you personally have discussed about 5 times already in here? I want to see news and or rumours in the thread, release dates, options we don't know about etc. a 57th rant about night lord HQ's isn't helping at this point. Want to whine? Go do it in the general thread.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
See above, not the place. The legends coming out is news, moaning about stuff in the codex is not.
Yes, the Legends PDF is the news. And it carries right back to the previous complaints because people were hoping that gw would remove their heads from their backsides and actually errata some of this stuff back in, as they did with the CWE Autarch. But this obviously means that isn't happening. So without any hope for recourse, the discussion is reopened.
Look, I get that this stuff doesn't affect everyone equally, but for some of us, it's a pretty big problem. And we aren't just going to take it quietly.
I'm actually kind of glad about this, since in the past, GW said that they wouldn't be updating Legends. The lack of ap on the chainsword is odd, though, and has to be an oversight.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
You mean the implications of what happened a month ago and you personally have discussed about 5 times already in here? I want to see news and or rumours in the thread, release dates, options we don't know about etc. a 57th rant about night lord HQ's isn't helping at this point. Want to whine? Go do it in the general thread.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
See above, not the place. The legends coming out is news, moaning about stuff in the codex is not.
Yes, the Legends PDF is the news. And it carries right back to the previous complaints because people were hoping that gw would remove their heads from their backsides and actually errata some of this stuff back in, as they did with the CWE Autarch. But this obviously means that isn't happening. So without any hope for recourse, the discussion is reopened.
Look, I get that this stuff doesn't affect everyone equally, but for some of us, it's a pretty big problem. And we aren't just going to take it quietly.
100% on board with that gad, but you've at least done the right thing and tried to contact GWiirc and ask for a change. More people should do that, direct the energy in a useful manner rather than just complaining or sniping at people.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: With legends GW has only one Job: copy&paste what was there in the prior Codex and has now been lost.
I don't know why they fail at that.
I'm not a bit surprised. They fumbled on this entire release, why would they suddenly become competent now?
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
You mean the implications of what happened a month ago and you personally have discussed about 5 times already in here? I want to see news and or rumours in the thread, release dates, options we don't know about etc. a 57th rant about night lord HQ's isn't helping at this point. Want to whine? Go do it in the general thread.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
See above, not the place. The legends coming out is news, moaning about stuff in the codex is not.
Yes, the Legends PDF is the news. And it carries right back to the previous complaints because people were hoping that gw would remove their heads from their backsides and actually errata some of this stuff back in, as they did with the CWE Autarch. But this obviously means that isn't happening. So without any hope for recourse, the discussion is reopened.
Look, I get that this stuff doesn't affect everyone equally, but for some of us, it's a pretty big problem. And we aren't just going to take it quietly.
100% on board with that gad, but you've at least done the right thing and tried to contact GWiirc and ask for a change. More people should do that, direct the energy in a useful manner rather than just complaining or sniping at people.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
Don't like it, don't post in the thread. Simple as that. If you don't want to discuss the implications of what's happening and how it affected you, whatever.
You mean the implications of what happened a month ago and you personally have discussed about 5 times already in here? I want to see news and or rumours in the thread, release dates, options we don't know about etc. a 57th rant about night lord HQ's isn't helping at this point. Want to whine? Go do it in the general thread.
Dudeface wrote: Can we please not have another 20+ pages of the exact same complaints and conversations about loadout changes on loop?
We got some new news today, it was somewhat disappointing and re-opened still fresh wounds for lots of folks. Why would that not be worth discussing? What is the point of asking people to not discuss things? Why don't you just pass on this thread?
See above, not the place. The legends coming out is news, moaning about stuff in the codex is not.
Yes, the Legends PDF is the news. And it carries right back to the previous complaints because people were hoping that gw would remove their heads from their backsides and actually errata some of this stuff back in, as they did with the CWE Autarch. But this obviously means that isn't happening. So without any hope for recourse, the discussion is reopened.
Look, I get that this stuff doesn't affect everyone equally, but for some of us, it's a pretty big problem. And we aren't just going to take it quietly.
100% on board with that gad, but you've at least done the right thing and tried to contact GWiirc and ask for a change. More people should do that, direct the energy in a useful manner rather than just complaining or sniping at people.
Yes, people should definitely contact gw directly and let them know how they feel. And I'll remind everyone that the place to do that is: 40kFAQ@gwplc.com
But you still have to understand that people are going to basically yell "ouch" when gw comes up and kicks them in the shin. Especially if said shin hasn't healed up yet from the last few kicks that gw gave it. And problems sometimes have to be agitated on, so that people notice them and actually do something. And if this complaining gets just a few people to write an email to gw, it has accomplished something.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm actually kind of glad about this, since in the past, GW said that they wouldn't be updating Legends. The lack of ap on the chainsword is odd, though, and has to be an oversight.
Given writing the Legends usually consists of someone copypasting something from previous relases, without looking at the current edition?
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
You said, and I quote:
"What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone"
So where does that apply to the unit I legit ran as a blob clearer?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Why would they deliberately leave it out though? Marine chainswords have had ap for I think two years now.
No, you're almost certainly right, I was just trying to be clever. It was most likely an error. I don't foresee them bothering to ever correct it, though. And at that point, the origin of the mistake is largely irrelevant.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
You said, and I quote:
"What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone"
So where does that apply to the unit I legit ran as a blob clearer?
It doesn't very obviously. What is your emotional attachment to that unit? There are 3 options:
1. I used it for X and that purpose is taken away
2. I lovingly converted/painted that unit
3. I'm competitive and it was an optimal build
You ruled out 3 and indicated at 1. So I'd advise that models rules change pretty often between editions and just because it's not the go-to horde clearer for you any more, it doesn't make them useless.
As I said to Gert, you have the advantage of all having the same loadout, use them as a unit of stock termies with max combi-flamers, nobody will complain. That way if they're lovingly converted (love to see them if so), at least they can be used.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
They don't get the free 20 hits and it's been 2 years, evidently the design paradigm has shifted and if we're being frank, the poster boys get different treatment. I fully expect they'll lose the option on the next pass.
New Chaos Legends PDF with all the actual options they left out of the codex for no reason.
... Did they really f cking remove the Sonic Dread option ?
Oh man, I missed that. You've gotta be kidding me. I was all pissed about losing my Mutilators when I really should've been thinking about my Sonic Dreads. GW SUCKS GW SUCKS GW SUCKS GW SUCKS REEEEE
I'm hoping that maybe the palanquin, jump and bike lords could be available to the Death Guard at some point, and the juggernaut lord to the World Eaters when that codex arrives.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The lack of ap on the chainsword is odd, though, and has to be an oversight.
That is a level of optimism I simply do not possess. I am genuinely envious.
Why would they deliberately leave it out though? Marine chainswords have had ap for I think two years now.
Lazy legends update is accidentally ok in this regard - the copy paste of the old datasheet includes old no AP chainsword as default wargear, but they can all be swapped for items from the melee list which includes modern astartes chainswords with AP (which you then lose again to AOC).
Anyone want to enlighten me on what the point is on the Terminator Lord update? He already has access to all melee weapons plus either a gun or lightning claw in the off hand, "upgrading" to any melee weapon in the offhand is either way worse or super gamey (double chainfist + slaanesh daemon weapon), legends being gamey just makes you feel bad for actually using it IMO.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
They don't get the free 20 hits and it's been 2 years, evidently the design paradigm has shifted and if we're being frank, the poster boys get different treatment. I fully expect they'll lose the option on the next pass.
The weapon restrictions on Terminators have nothing to do with S4 AP0 combi-flamers. They're because "that's what's in the kit". If they were worried about that, don't you think those Rubrics with their S4 AP-2 (possibly AP-3 depending on how they decide their Icon works) flamers would raise some eyebrows?
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
They don't get the free 20 hits and it's been 2 years, evidently the design paradigm has shifted and if we're being frank, the poster boys get different treatment. I fully expect they'll lose the option on the next pass.
The weapon restrictions on Terminators have nothing to do with S4 AP0 combi-flamers. They're because "that's what's in the kit". If they were worried about that, don't you think those Rubrics with their S4 AP-2 (possibly AP-3 depending on how they decide their Icon works) flamers would raise some eyebrows?
That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer, although there has been a lot of talk online about including rubrics for the flamers, so it hasn't gone unnoticed.
Nevertheless I imagine space wolves will get the same treatment when they get a 9th book.
drbored wrote: I'm not even surprised. I'm just disappointed.
Now we wait for the FAQ and whatever they're going to do with the Traitor Guard datasheet (if that's ever coming).
To be clear, I'm not expecting any improvements, just more of the same disappointment.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did just call them the shooty cultists, like someone else suggested. It would be on-brand for how lazy this entire release has been.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
They don't get the free 20 hits and it's been 2 years, evidently the design paradigm has shifted and if we're being frank, the poster boys get different treatment. I fully expect they'll lose the option on the next pass.
The weapon restrictions on Terminators have nothing to do with S4 AP0 combi-flamers. They're because "that's what's in the kit". If they were worried about that, don't you think those Rubrics with their S4 AP-2 (possibly AP-3 depending on how they decide their Icon works) flamers would raise some eyebrows?
That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer, although there has been a lot of talk online about including rubrics for the flamers, so it hasn't gone unnoticed.
Nevertheless I imagine space wolves will get the same treatment when they get a 9th book.
Man, those squads of 12 Burna Boyz tellyporting in must be really tearing apart the tournament meta.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
They don't get the free 20 hits and it's been 2 years, evidently the design paradigm has shifted and if we're being frank, the poster boys get different treatment. I fully expect they'll lose the option on the next pass.
The weapon restrictions on Terminators have nothing to do with S4 AP0 combi-flamers. They're because "that's what's in the kit". If they were worried about that, don't you think those Rubrics with their S4 AP-2 (possibly AP-3 depending on how they decide their Icon works) flamers would raise some eyebrows?
That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer, although there has been a lot of talk online about including rubrics for the flamers, so it hasn't gone unnoticed.
Nevertheless I imagine space wolves will get the same treatment when they get a 9th book.
Man, those squads of 12 Burna Boyz tellyporting in must be really tearing apart the tournament meta.
Oh noes, the burn (ba-dum-tsch) how could I not realise that 12 t5 6+ wounds doing 12d6 hits is the same as 30 t4 2+/5++ wounds doing 10d6 + 20 hits + 20 bolter rounds.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The lack of ap on the chainsword is odd, though, and has to be an oversight.
That is a level of optimism I simply do not possess. I am genuinely envious.
Why would they deliberately leave it out though? Marine chainswords have had ap for I think two years now.
Lazy legends update is accidentally ok in this regard - the copy paste of the old datasheet includes old no AP chainsword as default wargear, but they can all be swapped for items from the melee list which includes modern astartes chainswords with AP (which you then lose again to AOC).
Anyone want to enlighten me on what the point is on the Terminator Lord update? He already has access to all melee weapons plus either a gun or lightning claw in the off hand, "upgrading" to any melee weapon in the offhand is either way worse or super gamey (double chainfist + slaanesh daemon weapon), legends being gamey just makes you feel bad for actually using it IMO.
In the old Codex I used to run a World Eater Terminator Lord with chainfist and power axe. The axe was upgraded to the Berzerker Glaive, which have him 5+ FNP and a Dmg2 option of I didn't want to fight at -1 to hit.
Thankfully, the model is magnetised so when the new Codex was leaked I just quickly made up a new arm to make him legal again, but this Legends update would've fixed that anyway.
Besides, it's not a bad option to have an alternative melee weapon available if your main weapon is a Daemon Weapon. If the Daemon resists, you have the option of simply dealing to the other weapon, though admittedly you could already do that with a lightning claw.
drbored wrote: I'm not even surprised. I'm just disappointed.
Now we wait for the FAQ and whatever they're going to do with the Traitor Guard datasheet (if that's ever coming).
To be clear, I'm not expecting any improvements, just more of the same disappointment.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did just call them the shooty cultists, like someone else suggested. It would be on-brand for how lazy this entire release has been.
I think it wins the award for most mishandled release in GW history. Cut content, loss of options, bizarre paradigm shift, inconsistent application of said paradigm shift, models coming out late & separated from the codex, old stuff missing (MoP still), no communication as to why any of this happened or if it will be addressed... just a huge mess.
Personally, I scuttled my plans I started forming when the model reveal happened, and just want the rest to come out so we can be done with it. They screwed the chaos pooch again, let the empty daemon book come out and we can move on towards guard (which hopefully isn't as restricted by subfactions as it looks) and stripped down world eaters (still hope that won't be as bad, but I know its baseless) and hopefully a quick squat dump. Then see if there are any signs of hope on the horizon.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: What do you hope to get from this, Dudeface? Do you think anybody is going to listen to you and do what you say? This stupid whining about the thread content is way more offtopic than the (supposed) whining itself.
He hopes to gain "GW okay, just wait!" which is not something I plan to listen to as we get more updates. I will express my frustration as will others, and if he doesn't want to hear it thats too bad. It's an open forum.
You're right it's an open forum for me to also express my frustrations.
I couldn't give less of a gak about the perception of GW or their perception to you, honestly, I enjoy the game and I consider that a lot of the criticisms levelled against them are overzealous a lot of the time, but yeah they do daft gak a lot of the time and sometimes need pulling up.
Regards the chaos stuff, yes losing options sucks, being asked to pay for other books for use of 1 unit sucks, is it a good idea form GW? obviously not.
Is whining endlessly in a news and rumours thread over and over and over and over going to actually help in any way? Not at all.
@Gert I didn't tell you not to complain, I offered solutions to you using the models you're upset about having illegal loadouts on.
But honest to god, since it's an open forum, suck it up a little. We have people who advocate piracy complaining about buying books. You weren't going to buy them anyway. What was the joy in the combi weapons you lost? "oh well I really enjoy deepstriking in, removing 1 unit, using the should-be-extinct shoot twice strat to do it twice then make easy charges with my emps children strats" - no tears shed that is gone. If your love is the models and the conversions and paintjob you put on them, the loss of a few plasma/melta/whatever shots shouldn't matter.
I have sympathy for the jump pack characters (owning some myself), I have sympathy for the book gated units, hell I even have sympathy for mutilator owners, I'm sure some exist. the rest of it isn't really a huge make or break sort of thing unless you're a tournament regular, in which case I dare say the model itself is of less import than the rules 9/10 anyway.
LOL, good to know my unit of Khorne Terminators with all Combi-Flamers was actually broken via shooting twice. Thanks, because I was relentlessly beating opponents with that.
Your khorne terminators with combi flamers couldn't fire twice. Starting to think you make a lot of this up.
From a game balance perspective, having 3w t4 2+/5++ units drop in from reserve with 10d6+20 flamer hits + 20 bolter rounds, might be a bit much to balance against as its entirely uninteractive for your opponent when they turn up.
If it's such a balance problem why can Space Wolves still do it?
They don't get the free 20 hits and it's been 2 years, evidently the design paradigm has shifted and if we're being frank, the poster boys get different treatment. I fully expect they'll lose the option on the next pass.
The weapon restrictions on Terminators have nothing to do with S4 AP0 combi-flamers. They're because "that's what's in the kit". If they were worried about that, don't you think those Rubrics with their S4 AP-2 (possibly AP-3 depending on how they decide their Icon works) flamers would raise some eyebrows?
That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer, although there has been a lot of talk online about including rubrics for the flamers, so it hasn't gone unnoticed.
Nevertheless I imagine space wolves will get the same treatment when they get a 9th book.
Man, those squads of 12 Burna Boyz tellyporting in must be really tearing apart the tournament meta.
Oh noes, the burn (ba-dum-tsch) how could I not realise that 12 t5 6+ wounds doing 12d6 hits is the same as 30 t4 2+/5++ wounds doing 10d6 + 20 hits + 20 bolter rounds.
Not even an equivalent amount of points LOL. Just admit you're wrong when you completely forgot Rubrics can do it and for far cheaper.
Voss wrote: Personally, I scuttled my plans I started forming when the model reveal happened, and just want the rest to come out so we can be done with it. They screwed the chaos pooch again, let the empty daemon book come out and we can move on towards guard (which hopefully isn't as restricted by subfactions as it looks) and stripped down world eaters (still hope that won't be as bad, but I know its baseless) and hopefully a quick squat dump. Then see if there are any signs of hope on the horizon.
Here too. I was all geared up for a Chaos Marine army with loads of the new cultists and just a few marine units, but that's definitely not happening now. I wanted to grab the new Chosen too, if only to gear up some champions for the regular squads. Looking at the stuff now just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The sooner we are on to the next army release, the better.
Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason
There is no way to respond to this properly without blowing rule 1 to smithereens. Maybe take a closer look and see if you still feel that way about "choas players".
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason
The issue is that the codex actually makes many people's models/armies unplayable. Which means for them it absolutely isn't a "good codex with some good rules". But I think you know that, and you're just trolling. But go ahead, prove me wrong. Explain exactly how a codex that invalidates large swathes of people's collections should be considered "good" by those said people.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable. and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason
Between squatting, datasheets which make no sense, more datasheets that make even less sense, 97 stratagems but not even capable of making custom traits, "mere mortal-itis" after introducing a cultist command squad and mutants... and playable? Considering the sorcerer is now what the MoP last edition was, basically an afterthought and not worth the HQ slot opportunity cost, CSM still not being worth it, etc etc et all.
Not even an equivalent amount of points LOL. Just admit you're wrong when you completely forgot Rubrics can do it and for far cheaper.
Do you even read?
That's a fair point, I forgot they could 10 man flamer
Like seriously? Open your eyes, but well done, have a pat on the back for "winning" an internet debate.
Well at least you can admit it wasn't done for any balance reasons.
Nah it's based on whats in the box, I'd still stand my assessment that a brick of terminators doing stupid volumes of auto hits out of deepstrike is hard to price fairly though. I fully expect rubrics to remain the only unit that can pull it off (that I can think of off top of my head) come 10th ed.
Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
'not trolling' and summarizing what's lost as 'a few weapon options no one took' is incompatible.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
No one took he says, lemme see, the last competitive builds included all combi-plasma (which you can't do anymore) terminators.
Jumppacks were vital for functioning buffs and beatsticks so sorcerer and lords are now deadweight.
Legionaires if they showed up in 10 man blocks when you wanted to make them work as red corsairs were always specialised with 2 heavies or specials of the same type which now also doesn't work anymore..
Hmmm chosen still suck due to lack of specialisation and this dex made that somehow worse.
Hmmm... but sure 97 stratagems will fix all of the above..
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Nobody took two of the same weapon on Legionaires?
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Nobody took two of the same weapon on Legionaires?
As soon as GW finally allowed it i decided with the at the time new sculpts to make my dreamwarband centered around CSM... yeah, not one of these squads is now legal anymore and if i want to field my PM i need to buy another codex aswell
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Glances at 30 Terminators with double lightning claws
Riiight.
Also I'm still bloody upset GW basically lied yet again when they said the 'Dex will include Traitor Guard. But I guess that's just what I get for trusting WarCom
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
That's basically a nothing statement, "stuff changes" yeah that's correct but it's also not very useful.
hotsauceman1 wrote: But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good.
Do you have some insider information that confirms this codex is actually strong? Seems like a clear dud. I don't think "sure you can't play with your miniatures any more, but the book is strong I think" is a good trade.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Again, where are you getting this good codex thing?
Things we know for sure:
-It's a codex
-Some models are no longer usable
Things we definitely don't know:
-It's so strong that you'll forget all about those models you can't use any more
I lost:
Chaos Lord with lightning claw and combi-bolter
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
Daemon Prince warp bolter and fleshmetal exoskeleton
4 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
My friend lost:
5 Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords
5 Khorne Berserkers with chainswords and chainaxes
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack
2 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
If your argument is "hardly anything was lost" that's just not correct, and if your argument is "it's a good codex though" I would ask how is a codex that takes away your gak a good codex, if your argument is "it's a competitively strong codex though" that is both yet to be seen and irrelevant to me wanting to use my games workshop models that I paid for and spent hours building.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good. If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Nobody took two of the same weapon on Legionaires?
Finally, we've found the target demographic for the original metal Chaos Terminator boxed set. People who only take one of each weapon.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason
because they lost options, even if the remaining bits are highly playable that's annoying to chaos players. especially as MANY long time CSM players have many loveingly converted models that are now no longer in the codex. I can very much understand the annoyance here.
Even if we accept that these changes might "in the long run be good, and that whats THERE is great" it's still something that is going to jutifiably be rage inducing.
Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing
So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
He’s not completely wrong though. The codex is a decent codex that can run some effective and fluffy lists. On the flip side, GW just made some “weird” decisions that seem unnecessary, except for pissing off existing players. Legionaries can still pick 2 weapons that fit a similar role, but was it necessary to not allow duplicate weapons (only 2 per squad)? No, it’s a weird choice when allowing duplicate are is in no way game breaking.
Could they have kept the JP resin lord in circulation to allow the dataslate? Yep, sure could, but they didn’t.
Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.
So, in theory he’s correct that it’s a decent codex game wise, but incorrect that people are whining for “no reason”.
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Im not trolling.
I truly do not understand, models change and come and go.
That's basically a nothing statement, "stuff changes" yeah that's correct but it's also not very useful.
hotsauceman1 wrote: But an army with goo competitive rules, that allows the codex to function, That is good.
Do you have some insider information that confirms this codex is actually strong? Seems like a clear dud. I don't think "sure you can't play with your miniatures any more, but the book is strong I think" is a good trade.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If some models get lost on he way, thats sad. But having a good codex is better than some models no longer being viable.
and what was really lost? a few weapon options no one took?
Again, where are you getting this good codex thing?
Things we know for sure:
-It's a codex
-Some models are no longer usable
Things we definitely don't know:
-It's so strong that you'll forget all about those models you can't use any more
I lost:
Chaos Lord with lightning claw and combi-bolter
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
Daemon Prince warp bolter and fleshmetal exoskeleton
4 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
My friend lost:
5 Chosen with combi-bolters and chainswords
5 Khorne Berserkers with chainswords and chainaxes
Chaos Terminators squad with all power fists
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack
2 Aspiring Champions with combi-bolter
If your argument is "hardly anything was lost" that's just not correct, and if your argument is "it's a good codex though" I would ask how is a codex that takes away your gak a good codex, if your argument is "it's a competitively strong codex though" that is both yet to be seen and irrelevant to me wanting to use my games workshop models that I paid for and spent hours building.
The essence of what 40K rules are, is changing. For the worse or better I cannot say. But it sounds to me like what a lot of you want, and would thrive in is Heresy, which has endless amounts of customization for your models.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing
EC don't fight first against the whole army. The fact that you don't know this is a perfect example of why this book is not actually good. Army rules are cool but very, very inconsistently applied, most of the actual power comes from stupid wombo combos, and of course, yeah, lots and lots of invalidated loadouts. Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.
Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.
That's a good sidestep.
Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."
Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing
MoS gives you fight first if you buy it for everyone, not just being Emperors Children.
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.
That's a good sidestep.
Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."
Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.
It's both? If people feel the products are crap people will look elsewhere, but the owner can't complain about not selling the books if they don't make an effort to encourage it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
It's called "trying to give you an out". But, since you didn't take it......
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing
Do you actually expect people to be happy about trading the use of the models and units that we've had for literally decades for gamey like stratagems and "combos"? Am I supposed to be happy that the HQs that are literally one of the defining elements of my Legion have been hurled into the obscurity of Legends for the pathetic trade of a garbage Legion trait and some cheap parlor tricks?
And good rules? Do you actually expect any Night Lords player whose seen what we were given by the Horus Heresy writers just weeks before this dumpster fire was released to consider this mess "good"? Please. You can't sell a cheap, shoddy knockoff product when you've got the real thing with all of the options sitting right next to it on the same shelf, for the same price. No one will want your out of date rotten tripe when fresh steak is available for the same $$$.
You can't convince a long term CSM player that this book is "good" when we know that they can do better, because we have seen them do better. And not only years in the past, but recently, and in a game that is alive and well.
This book is just another in a long series of slaps to the face from gw to long time Chaos players. And many of us have had enough of them. We thought you were trolling because we couldn't believe anyone could "seriously" have such an opinion. But I guess you do, though I still don't understand how.
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
I certainly hope so. Maybe GW will finally realize how ridiculous their update pattern is and do something to break the cycle.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Love how you guys think someone disagreeikg with your opinion is trolling.
No I'm serious.
Every codex lost stuff over that last few editions.
But the chaos codex rules are strong, strategems are good and they have some brutal combos(like EC always fighting frost across the whole army)
Again losing stuff is something we have known will be happening for along time, since Index armies where a thing
MoS gives you fight first if you buy it for everyone, not just being Emperors Children.
Did you buy the codex?
And you're still limited by who you can give MoS to, even in an EC army. Again, that's one of the obvious reasons why the book sucks even to people who are new to Chaos (in a similar way to why people complained about 9e Admech). For people who have existing CSM armies, you'd have to be pretty damn lucky to not be impacted by the loadout restrictions. (I know I'm preaching to the choir here, to be clear)
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
well of course she can't sell the product if she ALLOWS pirated products in her store.
That's a good sidestep.
Clearly, when you have customers expressing that they aren't interested in buying a product that is by it's very history (over four years now) likely to be unusable and severely contorted within mere weeks of launch, the problem isn't "I let them play with whatever they want."
Frankly you and I both know the current codex set up is poorly maintained and hugely wasteful. To try and assert that it's simply the issue of the store not turning them away, is very much being willfully ignorance of the problem. We don't have to have a discussion about the pros and cons of piracy, to discuss the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players. This issue of either finding a way to make them better products, or finding a viable alternative for the company is something we can discuss however, and should be discussing as a community.
It's both? If people feel the products are crap people will look elsewhere, but the owner can't complain about not selling the books if they don't make an effort to encourage it.
You guys are misinterpreting what I am saying. The owner wasn't complaining about not being able to sell books. There is no discussion about complaints about lost sales. She was saying that books aren't selling and that some customers have outright stated they don't wish to pay for an inferior product, which is the issue with the codexes. I am using this as evidence that some peoples minds have changed in the last year on Codexes and then attempting to see if this is localized, or if we might start to see larger groups of folks abandoning buying new codexes over fears that they will continue to be not worth the money.
Togusa wrote: So this past weekend I went up to one of the new game spaces in my local area to check out how the 40K community was doing and I ran across something I didn't expect to see.
Almost everyone there was playing with a kinko's copy of their codex and not the physical book. Without going to much into detail to avoid breaking forum rules, they sourced their rules through other channels and when I spoke to the store owner she informed me that she's having a tough time selling codexes specifically, with a lot of customers expressing fear that they do not want to spend money on something that will be mostly obsolete within a month of purchase. She did tell me that model sales are still doing quite well and that AoS/40K combined are outselling magic at her store, for about the last six months. Which seems like good news for the local community.
I wonder, have we finally hit the peak for GW books, where people have been burned enough that they're no longer focusing on buying certain products in favor of buying more models?
I certainly hope so. Maybe GW will finally realize how ridiculous their update pattern is and do something to break the cycle.
That is my feeling as well. I've taken to to write to GW and tell them about issues that I feel are quite negative with regard to their books recently. I'm hoping if they start to pay attention and (hopefully notice sales drops) that it will sprue further change in their codex/book model.
They took cult troops out of the book (except for hopeless ancient no model Noise Marines). Mutilators are just gone. Greater Possessed are just gone. They've invalidated entire swathes of peoples' armies.
This isn't just a few little things here and there. It's yet another Chaos Codex where we lost more than we gained.
How do you not get this? How do you have the gall to come in here and just say we're so "salty", acting as if these issues aren't real.
That's why people call you a troll.
bullyboy wrote: Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.
Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.
All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.
Togusa wrote: the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players.
Tyranid Codex/cards were invalidated before they even hit shelves in Australia, and it only got worse from there with the one/two punch of the new points and the "balance" dataslate.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?
Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities
H.B.M.C. wrote:
bullyboy wrote: Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.
Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.
All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.
Classic GW codex update change. Every edition something changes be it optimal unit options or available unit options.
My Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad went from being allowed a 2 weapon upgrades in a 5-model squad to requiring a 10-model squad when the 9th Edition Codex rolled out. I'm sure you remember when Skitarii and Wyches went from being allowed 3 special weapons to 1 of each of the 3 special weapons in their 9th Edition Codex.
In this sad case, Chaos wasn't singled out for special treatment. Everyone is getting whacked with the WITB stick (actually the what was the kit built to kitbash with stick).
H.B.M.C. wrote: So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?
Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities
So, in your opinion/interpretation, would the Lord on Jugger gain +1S when charging/charged/heroically intervening from the Mark of Khorne?
alextroy wrote: In this sad case, Chaos wasn't singled out for special treatment. Everyone is getting whacked with the WITB stick (actually the what was the kit built to kitbash with stick).
No one's saying Chaos was singled out. And "Yeah but it happened to everyone else!" doesn't make the complaints any less valid.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?
Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities
H.B.M.C. wrote:
bullyboy wrote: Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.
Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.
All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.
Classic GW codex update change. Every edition something changes be it optimal unit options or available unit options.
My Adepta Sororitas Battle Sister Squad went from being allowed a 2 weapon upgrades in a 5-model squad to requiring a 10-model squad when the 9th Edition Codex rolled out. I'm sure you remember when Skitarii and Wyches went from being allowed 3 special weapons to 1 of each of the 3 special weapons in their 9th Edition Codex.
In this sad case, Chaos wasn't singled out for special treatment. Everyone is getting whacked with the WITB stick (actually the what was the kit built to kitbash with stick).
No, it wasn't, and I've covered this multiple times. But fine, we'll do it again:
1: The Chosen kit is fully kitbashable with the Legionaries, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Those combi-weapons will attach to the shoulders of those models just as easily as the ones in the Chosen kit, and yet all Legionaries, Havoc, and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option to take combi-weapons.
2: The lighting claws in the Raptors/Warp Talons kit are also fully compatible with all of the aforementioned kits, but Legionaire, Havoc and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option for lighting claws. Which is especially egregious in the case of Raptor Aspiring Champions, which are literally built from the same kit.
3: The "official" Chaos Lord in Power Armour kit is actually the Obsideus Mallex model from Blackstone Fortress, and is a Black Legion character complete with molded on Black Legion iconography, and he doesn't share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the Legionaries Chosen Havocs, and Raptors kits. And yet we are expected to use him for ALL Legions, and he can take multiple weapons from the Legionaries, Chosen, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Meanwhile, Harkon does share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the aforementioned kits, and his Black Legion iconography is on his shoulder pads, which again are fully swappable with any shoulder pads from any of the aforementioned kits. But he can not be used to build a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack for any other Legion besides Black Legion.
The optional equipment rules for CSM don't follow any paradigm. They are simply arbitrary, and are seemingly based on "you can kitbash/convert what we say you can". Stop trying to make sense of them. Only madness lies down that road.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.
Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.
I think the question should rather be why should they? They're special weapons, except they aren't if everyone carries one. And again, the only reason you want them is for a deep strike wombo combo shot which is exactly what chaos is known for and is old AF. You don't hear imperial players asking for a full unit of cyclone terms etc.
Also, I don't understand why you're comparing terminators to primaris when you actually have an identical Imperial unit to compare to, weird. What are Imperial termi loadouts again? Full of combi-plasmas?
Combi on the leader plus 2 more per squad is perfectly fine.
I do sympathize with the powerfist situation though, but that falls in line with my bizarre choice by GW out take that I mentioned in my post.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So do these Legends Mounted Lords have Marks...?
Well, they have the Mark of Chaos keyword and appropriate keyword for their god... so I think GW kinda assumes they do even though they fail to follow the rules process in the codex to gain the mark associated abilities
So, in your opinion/interpretation, would the Lord on Jugger gain +1S when charging/charged/heroically intervening from the Mark of Khorne?
I would let you do it if you played me because it doesn't make sense for them to put the Mark of Chaos keyword on the unit if it wasn't supposed to have the Mark of Chaos.
A rules lawyer might argue you didn't follow the rules in the Mark of Chaos part of the codex and say no. Unfortunately this is GW, where RAI is normally easy to identify but different from RAW due to the writers making too many assumptions.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Lol, CSM finally get a good codex with some good rules to actually make most of the book playable.
and people STILL complain.
man choas players really are salty for no reason
90% of my complaints are about the models, and how you are "allowed" to kit them out according to the book. I never cared about how good or bad the book was. If it was a trash book but we had awesome models, I'd have actually been happier.
I'm salty because we're still using a leftover vehicle upgrade sprue from 1996, a few other models from 3rd and 4th edition that don't match the style or even scale of the newer ones.
I'm salty because the upcoming Cultist kit was so close to being good, if they had added, once again, an extra sprue of options (in this case autoguns) so that we had all the options in one box (ironically the thing that many other entries are restricted to).
I'm salty because GW can't seem to make up their mind on any of the entries of this faction, and as ever, as I have said before and will say yet again, my blame lies predominantly with the design team.
The miniature design team and their creative director cannot apparently be bothered to give this faction a few key things.
A. A Chaos Lord with more than a thunder hammer and plasma pistol, or heck, even just a head swap option would be better at this point.
B. More than one pair of lightning claws in any new kit they make. The weapon choices are so random that the rules team are forced to write a ledger of what you can and can't take in a squad.
C. Any update to 20+ year old vehicles (not just for Chaos, but for many factions across 40k).
D. Stylistic and scale updates to units ranging from the Spawn to the Bikers to the Defiler, all old and aging.
E. Forced the Oblits and Venomcrawler into a bizarre situation where you have to buy them together in monopose boxes with zero customization options.
And that nowhere along their process was there apparently anyone that said, "Hey, these sorts of things are kind of an issue for this model range, can we get some work done on this?"
Oh, but let's go ahead and create a hodgepodge Cult Demagogue unit with a bunch of one-off models that will forever be a mess of rules.
I don't know if it's a budget issue, an issue of inspiration, whatever, but the design team seems totally fine copy-pasting the same Space Marine armor pieces across a dozen generic characters and other units, but can't be bothered to give us Chaos Lord model?
If the design team doesn't do right by the actual model itself, then everything else from there becomes a failure. The rules become a failure, the book becomes a failure, the rest of the faction suffers as a result.
Who knows? Maybe we just have to wait for them to put out all the World Eaters and Emperor's Children stuff first, a project that's taken them nearly a decade up to this point (and still no news on when EC will actually happen) and THEN maybe they'll be able to revisit Chaos Marines to get the few laggards like Huron Blackheart and the Bikers out of 3rd edition.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.
Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.
I think the question should rather be why should they? They're special weapons, except they aren't if everyone carries one. And again, the only reason you want them is for a deep strike wombo combo shot which is exactly what chaos is known for and is old AF. You don't hear imperial players asking for a full unit of cyclone terms etc.
Also, I don't understand why you're comparing terminators to primaris when you actually have an identical Imperial unit to compare to, weird. What are Imperial termi loadouts again? Full of combi-plasmas?
Combi on the leader plus 2 more per squad is perfectly fine.
I do sympathize with the powerfist situation though, but that falls in line with my bizarre choice by GW out take that I mentioned in my post.
Cyclone Missiles aren't special weapons. That's a heavy weapon like the Heavy Flamer and Autocannon.
Secondly, Space Wolf Terminators can do it. Are they broken?
No, it wasn't, and I've covered this multiple times. But fine, we'll do it again:
1: The Chosen kit is fully kitbashable with the Legionaries, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Those combi-weapons will attach to the shoulders of those models just as easily as the ones in the Chosen kit, and yet all Legionaries, Havoc, and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option to take combi-weapons.
2: The lighting claws in the Raptors/Warp Talons kit are also fully compatible with all of the aforementioned kits, but Legionaire, Havoc and Raptor Aspiring Champions lost the option for lighting claws. Which is especially egregious in the case of Raptor Aspiring Champions, which are literally built from the same kit.
3: The "official" Chaos Lord in Power Armour kit is actually the Obsideus Mallex model from Blackstone Fortress, and is a Black Legion character complete with molded on Black Legion iconography, and he doesn't share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the Legionaries Chosen Havocs, and Raptors kits. And yet we are expected to use him for ALL Legions, and he can take multiple weapons from the Legionaries, Chosen, Havocs, and Raptors kits. Meanwhile, Harkon does share the same shoulder/arm connection design as the aforementioned kits, and his Black Legion iconography is on his shoulder pads, which again are fully swappable with any shoulder pads from any of the aforementioned kits. But he can not be used to build a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack for any other Legion besides Black Legion.
The optional equipment rules for CSM don't follow any paradigm. They are simply arbitrary, and are seemingly based on "you can kitbash/convert what we say you can". Stop trying to make sense of them. Only madness lies down that road.
I applaud you all for trying to make this clearer, but some of the replies you get seem willfully ignorant at this point. They understand. They just don't want to agree.
They took cult troops out of the book (except for hopeless ancient no model Noise Marines). Mutilators are just gone. Greater Possessed are just gone. They've invalidated entire swathes of peoples' armies.
This isn't just a few little things here and there. It's yet another Chaos Codex where we lost more than we gained.
How do you not get this? How do you have the gall to come in here and just say we're so "salty", acting as if these issues aren't real.
That's why people call you a troll.
bullyboy wrote: Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.
Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.
All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.
Togusa wrote: the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players.
Tyranid Codex/cards were invalidated before they even hit shelves in Australia, and it only got worse from there with the one/two punch of the new points and the "balance" dataslate.
greater posessed being gone is an odd one given they're newish models too. removing a unit that was a metal model dating back to 3rd edition I can understand but removing a relatively new model is a pretty dumb decision
They took cult troops out of the book (except for hopeless ancient no model Noise Marines). Mutilators are just gone. Greater Possessed are just gone. They've invalidated entire swathes of peoples' armies.
This isn't just a few little things here and there. It's yet another Chaos Codex where we lost more than we gained.
How do you not get this? How do you have the gall to come in here and just say we're so "salty", acting as if these issues aren't real.
That's why people call you a troll.
bullyboy wrote: Terminator loadouts are fine IMHO, I don’t think a specific combi weapon should be spammed through the whole squad.
Forget combi-weapons for a second: You can't even take all power fists.
All Power Fists in a Terminator Squad isn't exactly revolutionary or even the most effective way of equipping them, but it's never been an issue before. Now it suddenly is.
Togusa wrote: the VERIFIABLE FACT that 40K codexes are a waste of money for the players.
Tyranid Codex/cards were invalidated before they even hit shelves in Australia, and it only got worse from there with the one/two punch of the new points and the "balance" dataslate.
greater posessed being gone is an odd one given they're newish models too. removing a unit that was a metal model dating back to 3rd edition I can understand but removing a relatively new model is a pretty dumb decision
They weren't removed so much as rolled into the new possessed profile, there's nothing to distinguish the greater from the normal any more in terms of minis. If I were to guess they maybe considered releasing the possessed back when shadowspear came out perhaps and the 2 on the sprue would have been a "minimum unit" jobby.
You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.
I can't tell if you're confusing "good" with "OP". If it lands at 50% WR that's a "good" book. If it does it with multiple builds that's an "excellent" book imo.
I see the much touted useless Night Lords trait landing a 3rd place at The Warhound at Game Grid GT this last weekend which is a good sign.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.
I can't tell if you're confusing "good" with "OP". If it lands at 50% WR that's a "good" book. If it does it with multiple builds that's an "excellent" book imo.
I see the much touted useless Night Lords trait landing a 3rd place at The Warhound at Game Grid GT this last weekend which is a good sign.
I can play that game too -- look at CSM win rates overall last weekend, they're below average. And one 3rd place placing in a tournament of like 35 people is really nothing to write home about.
Also, I predict CSM lists will be pretty cookie cutter. Abaddon, MoP, Oblits, Termies, Venomcrawlers... and maybe a little bit of variety on top of that. But there's no way it'll be like Nids/Tau/Eldar were where you have a fair bit of choice, it's just not that strong of a book.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: You know, with all of these people saying how good the new Codex is we should be entering a silver age of chaos victories in events. I mean no one has said it is Nid level or Harlie level but still there should be a large up tick in victory percentage (IIRC the last number I saw was around 35%). Let's see those results and show everyone just how mediocre.. I mena good the CSM codex really is.
I can't tell if you're confusing "good" with "OP". If it lands at 50% WR that's a "good" book. If it does it with multiple builds that's an "excellent" book imo.
I see the much touted useless Night Lords trait landing a 3rd place at The Warhound at Game Grid GT this last weekend which is a good sign.
I can play that game too -- look at CSM win rates overall last weekend, they're below average. And one 3rd place placing in a tournament of like 35 people is really nothing to write home about.
Also, I predict CSM lists will be pretty cookie cutter. Abaddon, MoP, Oblits, Termies, Venomcrawlers... and maybe a little bit of variety on top of that. But there's no way it'll be like Nids/Tau/Eldar were where you have a fair bit of choice, it's just not that strong of a book.
There have been supply issues with the book which will limit it's availability for some tournaments and then there'll have been list submission cut offs and the fact ATC and WTC are coming up all making the "big" tournaments a none entity for a little while. Give it a month and it'll be a clearer picture, if they scrape a 50% using a "best possible" type list then yeah that's no ideal.
I can play that game too -- look at CSM win rates overall last weekend, they're below average. And one 3rd place placing in a tournament of like 35 people is really nothing to write home about.
Also, I predict CSM lists will be pretty cookie cutter. Abaddon, MoP, Oblits, Termies, Venomcrawlers... and maybe a little bit of variety on top of that. But there's no way it'll be like Nids/Tau/Eldar were where you have a fair bit of choice, it's just not that strong of a book.
I don't think people are going to have to worry about lists. It's the secondaries that are rough.
Of the 3 players that took BL this past weekend --
I can play that game too -- look at CSM win rates overall last weekend, they're below average. And one 3rd place placing in a tournament of like 35 people is really nothing to write home about.
Also, I predict CSM lists will be pretty cookie cutter. Abaddon, MoP, Oblits, Termies, Venomcrawlers... and maybe a little bit of variety on top of that. But there's no way it'll be like Nids/Tau/Eldar were where you have a fair bit of choice, it's just not that strong of a book.
I don't think people are going to have to worry about lists. It's the secondaries that are rough.
Of the 3 players that took BL this past weekend --
Abaddon certainly isn't an 'I win' button and neither are terminators.
On the other end of that a Night Lord player went 4-1 with:
DP, Disco, MoP, 10 termies, 2 MoE, Raptors, VC, Talons, Havocs
Last week a BL player went 4-1 with ( notably as WWWWL )
Abby, Apostle, Disco, MoP, 10 termies, 2x5 chosen, 3 VC
That's not really a refutation of my post though? I'm not saying anything is an "I Win" button, but I think successful lists will have a lot of commonalities, which this bears out. That said, I still maintain that it's too early to draw any conclusions (I merely put the data/claims out there after Dudeface claimed that single NL placing indicated the book was a strong book.)
H.B.M.C. wrote: It was never a problem before, why is it a problem now?
Answer: It's not. The only reason the limit is there is because of the kit.
Don't pretend that any of these changes are due to balance.
Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.
So because you say it's not a problem, it's not a problem? This is kindergarten-level rhetoric, anybody can say that about anything.
It’s not a problem because it simply isn’t a problem. The unit is playable with 2 combis as much as it is with 5, and you’ll see terminators being used extensively in lists, so obviously it’s not a combi weapon issue. Lords without JPs is an issue, as are some other glaring omissions and changes. Combi weapons and no duplicate hvy/specials in legion squads isn’t (although the latter is weird, it’s still not a problem)
Chaos players have a label of being a little more whiny than your average 40K faction player, and complaining about combi change on terms isn’t helping.
That's not really a refutation of my post though? I'm not saying anything is an "I Win" button, but I think successful lists will have a lot of commonalities, which this bears out. That said, I still maintain that it's too early to draw any conclusions (I merely put the data/claims out there after Dudeface claimed that single NL placing indicated the book was a strong book.)
That's really not what I said either, I commented saying that people in this thread complained how useless the nightlords trait was, but if it can land 3rd its a good sign. To mean that in the context of the other half of my post, it's likely to be a book that lands 50%ish with multiple builds.
That's not really a refutation of my post though? I'm not saying anything is an "I Win" button, but I think successful lists will have a lot of commonalities, which this bears out. That said, I still maintain that it's too early to draw any conclusions (I merely put the data/claims out there after Dudeface claimed that single NL placing indicated the book was a strong book.)
That's really not what I said either, I commented saying that people in this thread complained how useless the nightlords trait was, but if it can land 3rd its a good sign. To mean that in the context of the other half of my post, it's likely to be a book that lands 50%ish with multiple builds.
The complaint wasn't that the Night Lords trait was "useless", it was that it was practically useless against some factions, while being possibly debilitating against others. Basically making Night Lords a gatekeeper faction.
And [SOMEONE] winning a few games in a tournament [SOMEWHERE] doesn't disprove that. We'll need a lot more data to evaluate that. It will require enough to compare Night Lords win rates against various factions across a lot more games.
Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.
bullyboy wrote:
It’s not a problem because it simply isn’t a problem. The unit is playable with 2 combis as much as it is with 5, and you’ll see terminators being used extensively in lists, so obviously it’s not a combi weapon issue. Lords without JPs is an issue, as are some other glaring omissions and changes. Combi weapons and no duplicate hvy/specials in legion squads isn’t (although the latter is weird, it’s still not a problem)
Chaos players have a label of being a little more whiny than your average 40K faction player, and complaining about combi change on terms isn’t helping.
...so wait, is it about balance, or not? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.
bullyboy wrote:
It’s not a problem because it simply isn’t a problem. The unit is playable with 2 combis as much as it is with 5, and you’ll see terminators being used extensively in lists, so obviously it’s not a combi weapon issue. Lords without JPs is an issue, as are some other glaring omissions and changes. Combi weapons and no duplicate hvy/specials in legion squads isn’t (although the latter is weird, it’s still not a problem)
Chaos players have a label of being a little more whiny than your average 40K faction player, and complaining about combi change on terms isn’t helping.
...so wait, is it about balance, or not? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
There will be no other wargear in the entire book. Each data sheet will have exactly one special rule, and one Legion Trait.
I know you're taking the mick but in honesty if they had just said models can have an accursed combiweapon which was bolter + I dunno assault 2 s6 ap-2 d2 or something, that would have actually solved a lot of this.
simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
...do I really have to explain why that doesn't work?
IDK, maybe my reading comprehension wasn't good enough and it's a brilliant suggestion, I just read it incorrectly.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Like, why shouldn't termies get to spam combi weapons, Bullyboy? They've had that forever, it is not game-breaking (especially when compared to a lot of what has been released lately), and it's emblematic of the flexibility that is available when embracing the ruinous powers.
Oh, and the existence of Primaris (in particular Eradicators) refutes this idea that "special weapons can't/shouldn't be spammed" or whatever.
I think the question should rather be why should they? They're special weapons, except they aren't if everyone carries one. And again, the only reason you want them is for a deep strike wombo combo shot which is exactly what chaos is known for and is old AF. You don't hear imperial players asking for a full unit of cyclone terms etc.
Also, I don't understand why you're comparing terminators to primaris when you actually have an identical Imperial unit to compare to, weird. What are Imperial termi loadouts again? Full of combi-plasmas? Combi on the leader plus 2 more per squad is perfectly fine.
I do sympathize with the powerfist situation though, but that falls in line with my bizarre choice by GW out take that I mentioned in my post.
Imperial players can do units with loads of cyclone terminators - Deathwatch Terminators (no kit, just a shoulder pad) can take 3 in any squad they appear in.
Imperial players can do units full of combi plasmas - Wolf Guard Terminators can take what they want.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It was never a problem before, why is it a problem now?
Answer: It's not. The only reason the limit is there is because of the kit.
Don't pretend that any of these changes are due to balance.
Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.
So because you say it's not a problem, it's not a problem? This is kindergarten-level rhetoric, anybody can say that about anything.
It’s not a problem because it simply isn’t a problem. The unit is playable with 2 combis as much as it is with 5, and you’ll see terminators being used extensively in lists, so obviously it’s not a combi weapon issue. Lords without JPs is an issue, as are some other glaring omissions and changes. Combi weapons and no duplicate hvy/specials in legion squads isn’t (although the latter is weird, it’s still not a problem)
Chaos players have a label of being a little more whiny than your average 40K faction player, and complaining about combi change on terms isn’t helping.
The unit is playable with 2, no arguments at all with your opinion, but consider for a moment that all options across the entire codex have been cut back - there isn't a single special weapons squad in this entire codex (unless you count S4 weapons on cult infantry). Every other army in the game has it's equivalent of a special weapons squad. Also consider that there is no access to generic weapons like powerfists, GW as recently as last edition was pushing boxes like Betrayal at Calth and encouraging the models inside as an Imperial vs Chaos faction agnostic set - it's just another in a long line of "sucks to be you" if you have bought their product to use in their game only to be told no.
The "what's in the box/no model no rules" stance is and always has been bizarre, no one builds an army from just one box and it is ridiculous to want to try and get every option into one box in the exact quantities you are permitted to take. If the same idea was simply tweaked to "what's in the range/no model no rules" I bet 99% of players wouldn't care at all (things like Juggernaut Lords which haven't been sold for ages would be in legends, but just about every power/terminator armoured option exists in a current kit).
Boosykes wrote: Chaos whinny? Lol you must be joking only whinny players I have seen are loyalist space marines.
This long thread proves otherwise, lol.
I think I’ve been clear through this thread that some things are terrible decisions by GW, but others are really minor and many other armies have lost options this edition. Some are more bizarre than others, but it is what it is. When it’s glaring like the chaos lord jump pack, you pressure GW with countless emails (see Eldar autarch as example), but others just need to be let go.
I don’t think the Lord issue will change though due to no plastic kit. GW needs to stop making a 20th version marine character and make several chaos lord options. Huge missed opportunity.
Never once mentioned balance. My point is it’s not a problem now either. The fuss is unnecessary in regards to this change.
bullyboy wrote:
It’s not a problem because it simply isn’t a problem. The unit is playable with 2 combis as much as it is with 5, and you’ll see terminators being used extensively in lists, so obviously it’s not a combi weapon issue. Lords without JPs is an issue, as are some other glaring omissions and changes. Combi weapons and no duplicate hvy/specials in legion squads isn’t (although the latter is weird, it’s still not a problem)
Chaos players have a label of being a little more whiny than your average 40K faction player, and complaining about combi change on terms isn’t helping.
...so wait, is it about balance, or not? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.
Ah yes, brilliant, brilliant! Truly, there's no problem with units being illegal if what they're equipped with visually doesn't matter and anything can be made to count-as anything. Truly a work of genius.
This begs the question of why the hell limit any datasheet to bits that are only in the box, if they're going to have no bearing on what they're equipped with in-game.
Not once did I have an opponent look at my harlequin close combat weapons and say they were modeled wrong. Heck, they didn’t even know the difference between them. It’s not like you are using a missile launcher as a plasma gun. It’s a tiny piece on the end of a twin barrel that you can barely see. But keep making it a massive issue, lol.
My IW terminators all have combi bolters (minus the auto cannon), but I’m going to be running champ with combi melta and 2 combi flamers in the squad.
There will be no other wargear in the entire book. Each data sheet will have exactly one special rule, and one Legion Trait.
I know you're taking the mick but in honesty if they had just said models can have an accursed combiweapon which was bolter + I dunno assault 2 s6 ap-2 d2 or something, that would have actually solved a lot of this.
In reality yes. Instead of having unique profiles for everything under the sun, they could just put Fist/Sword/Axe/Hammer under the profile "Power Weapon" and be done with it.
bullyboy wrote: Not once did I have an opponent look at my harlequin close combat weapons and say they were modeled wrong. Heck, they didn’t even know the difference between them. It’s not like you are using a missile launcher as a plasma gun. It’s a tiny piece on the end of a twin barrel that you can barely see. But keep making it a massive issue, lol.
My IW terminators all have combi bolters (minus the auto cannon), but I’m going to be running champ with combi melta and 2 combi flamers in the squad.
Welp, agree to disagree, I guess. I'm pretty sure if you dug up any "40k faux pas" thread on dakka, shady inconsistent proxying would be mentioned. I guess if you don't see it as a problem that you're one of those people, we're at an impasse.
ETA: and *obviously*, Harlequin weapons and combi-weapons that have been ubiquitous and well-known for decades are nowhere near comparable lmao, don't even try to trot that one out.
There will be no other wargear in the entire book. Each data sheet will have exactly one special rule, and one Legion Trait.
I know you're taking the mick but in honesty if they had just said models can have an accursed combiweapon which was bolter + I dunno assault 2 s6 ap-2 d2 or something, that would have actually solved a lot of this.
In reality yes. Instead of having unique profiles for everything under the sun, they could just put Fist/Sword/Axe/Hammer under the profile "Power Weapon" and be done with it.
I think 2 profiles foe generic power weapons and 2 profiles for heavier power weapons would suffice.
bullyboy wrote: Not once did I have an opponent look at my harlequin close combat weapons and say they were modeled wrong. Heck, they didn’t even know the difference between them. It’s not like you are using a missile launcher as a plasma gun. It’s a tiny piece on the end of a twin barrel that you can barely see. But keep making it a massive issue, lol.
My IW terminators all have combi bolters (minus the auto cannon), but I’m going to be running champ with combi melta and 2 combi flamers in the squad.
Welp, agree to disagree, I guess. I'm pretty sure if you dug up any "40k faux pas" thread on dakka, shady inconsistent proxying would be mentioned. I guess if you don't see it as a problem that you're one of those people, we're at an impasse.
ETA: and *obviously*, Harlequin weapons and combi-weapons that have been ubiquitous and well-known for decades are nowhere near comparable lmao, don't even try to trot that one out.
HQ weapons look far different in comparison to various combis, so point is more than valid. Only one that might be obvious is the plasma due to coil color, flamer, bolter and melta are way too similar to be an issue.
There’s blatant proxying that leads to confusion, and then there’s this scenario which is borderline pedantic.
bullyboy wrote: Not once did I have an opponent look at my harlequin close combat weapons and say they were modeled wrong. Heck, they didn’t even know the difference between them. It’s not like you are using a missile launcher as a plasma gun. It’s a tiny piece on the end of a twin barrel that you can barely see. But keep making it a massive issue, lol.
My IW terminators all have combi bolters (minus the auto cannon), but I’m going to be running champ with combi melta and 2 combi flamers in the squad.
Welp, agree to disagree, I guess. I'm pretty sure if you dug up any "40k faux pas" thread on dakka, shady inconsistent proxying would be mentioned. I guess if you don't see it as a problem that you're one of those people, we're at an impasse.
ETA: and *obviously*, Harlequin weapons and combi-weapons that have been ubiquitous and well-known for decades are nowhere near comparable lmao, don't even try to trot that one out.
HQ weapons look far different in comparison to various combis, so point is more than valid. Only one that might be obvious is the plasma due to coil color, flamer, bolter and melta are way too similar to be an issue.
There’s blatant proxying that leads to confusion, and then there’s this scenario which is borderline pedantic.
I'm pretty sure anyone that isn't an, uh, visually impaired redditor knows how a Plasma, a Bolter and a Melta look like.
bullyboy wrote: Not once did I have an opponent look at my harlequin close combat weapons and say they were modeled wrong. Heck, they didn’t even know the difference between them. It’s not like you are using a missile launcher as a plasma gun. It’s a tiny piece on the end of a twin barrel that you can barely see. But keep making it a massive issue, lol.
My IW terminators all have combi bolters (minus the auto cannon), but I’m going to be running champ with combi melta and 2 combi flamers in the squad.
Welp, agree to disagree, I guess. I'm pretty sure if you dug up any "40k faux pas" thread on dakka, shady inconsistent proxying would be mentioned. I guess if you don't see it as a problem that you're one of those people, we're at an impasse.
ETA: and *obviously*, Harlequin weapons and combi-weapons that have been ubiquitous and well-known for decades are nowhere near comparable lmao, don't even try to trot that one out.
HQ weapons look far different in comparison to various combis, so point is more than valid. Only one that might be obvious is the plasma due to coil color, flamer, bolter and melta are way too similar to be an issue.
There’s blatant proxying that leads to confusion, and then there’s this scenario which is borderline pedantic.
I'm pretty sure anyone that isn't an, uh, visually impaired redditor knows how a Plasma, a Bolter and a Melta look like.
We’re talking a combi weapon where one tiny barrel is different, not the entire weapon. But nice try.
This thread continues to remind me how fortunate I am with my gaming group. Although I’ve been to and watched many tournaments, and some of the travesties presented on table make this conversation on combis laughable.
How is what you're doing with your IW termies NOT blatant proxying? "These guys who look exactly the same have different weapons". That is the epitome of messy proxying that can lead to confusion and disagreements with opponents.
Why don't you define what blatant proxying is for us.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: How is what you're doing with your IW termies NOT blatant proxying? "These guys who look exactly the same have different weapons". That is the epitome of messy proxying that can lead to confusion and disagreements with opponents.
Why don't you define what blatant proxying is for us.
"These guys who look exactly the same have different weapons" and now, thankfully to Accursed Weapons, you can have that AND "These guys who look differently have the exact same weapon" at the same time, in the same squad!
Gene St. Ealer wrote: How is what you're doing with your IW termies NOT blatant proxying? "These guys who look exactly the same have different weapons". That is the epitome of messy proxying that can lead to confusion and disagreements with opponents.
Why don't you define what blatant proxying is for us.
Yea that level of proxy is a bit too far for me.
If you have two plasma and a flamer and wanted to run them as two melta and a flamer then whatever. As long as I know the model you pulled was distinguishable as that particular special weapon then go for it.
Not difficult. Combi melta on sgt, who is already distinguishable. One term has reaper auto. 3 terms remaining, pretty easy to point out only one who is rocking a combi bolter. Or don’t, either way, I’m really not bothered.. Just no reason to make such a big deal about little differences.
Running a tissue box as a land raider is not something I’m going to approve, lol. I understand that GW makes changes all the time and I don’t expect my buddies to tear apart models they’ve painted. If you want to be a d-bag about wysiwyg to an extreme level, good luck with the fun experience.
I’ve seen many 40K games, and swing by one of the busiest stores in my area. Unpainted grey masses, half built junk, etc, yet some of you gonna scream about a combi weapon. Madness.
bullyboy wrote: We’re talking a combi weapon where one tiny barrel is different, not the entire weapon. Nice try.
This argument doesn't work. Plasma, Melta and Flamer weaponry is some of the most iconic in 40k, and combi-weapons are visually distinct from one another. "Just pretend they're regular combi-bolters!" is a truly lousy argument.
And despite just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "This isn't a problem!", it is a problem, because people have entire units of Terminators that have been completely invalidated as a result of these asinine and unnecessary changes. Other units in the game can have all the same combi-weapon, but Chaos Terminators are suddenly restricted and we should just accept that because... pretend they're not combi-weapons?
And now you're even suggesting that you be inconsistent about it on a unit to unit bases (combi- on a champ is fine, but pretend it's something different in a squad).
Jump Pack since I started it twenty 
The weapon restrictions on Terminators have nothing to do with S4 AP0 combi-flamers. They're because "that's what's in the kit". If they were worried about that, don't you think those Rubrics with their S4 
