Eldritch Omens by unit, if you prefer just one or two things from the box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldritch Omens by unit, if you prefer just one or two things from the box.

Nice ! Thanks for the link !

Update post

CSM doctrine:

Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
Destruction ''Doctrine'': Heavy/grenade
Massacre ''Doctrine'': Rapid fire/assault
Slaughter ''Doctrine'': pistol/melee

Marks:
Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS

Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)
vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound

''Daemonic Gifts'': (purchaseable upgrade)
Khorne: +1S on the charge
Nurgle: -1 to wound
Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save
Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)
Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each


Legion rule:

NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT
6" aura that cancels obsec

Relics
Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+

Stratagems
Vox scream: cancels AURAS
Jump pack DS turn 1

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT
Some way to give +1 damage to certain units

WB
Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)

BL
ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)

Alpha legion
-1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

Emperor's children
Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

Red corsairs
Charge if they advanced
Models count as 2 for obsec; Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

Creations of bile
+1 str/move
Fight after death in melee
wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

''Build a warband'' renegade traits
+4" to range other than grenade and relic
After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game

WE
Not in the codex


Datasheet info:

Disco lord
not much change

Sorcerer in terminator armor
can have a chaos familiar

Cultist HQ squad
buff cultist moral

Cypher
In the codex

CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon

Mutant cultists
a squad made of a mix of big mutant and small mutants
big mutant at S5 t4 & ap2 in melee
small mutant are S4 t4 & ap1 in melee

Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)
Are no longuer in the codex
Act like harlequins in CWE army, or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
Always Elites
can benefit from army rules
Cannot gain a legion trait

Fallen
No in the codex

Chosen
3w
Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
WS 3+/BS 3+/ 3A (champion 4a)
Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of traits from the list of build a warband traits
Loadout:
everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

Terminators
Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

Greater possessed
Not in the codex (my guess is the models are the new regular possessed models)

Possessed
S5 T5 3W 5A
unit of 10 (do not know if this is total or max)
Personnal guess: either the greater possessed model will be the new stand possessed model, or it will be an upgrade to the standard possessed unit, DG will probably get a FAQ to receive the update

Mutilators
no longer in the book

Warp talon
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Venomcrawler
is now FA
is a bit faster (my guess 12" instead of 10")
now gives +1 to psychic tests
claws and mechatentrites are now just 1 weapon (again my guess this means the claw profile may be getting +2a)
ws3 bs3

Obliterators
have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
ignore modifier for heavy weapons
armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
Has 3 shooting profiles:
Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Other:
Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits (build a warband)
The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle

Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

drbored wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

I believe legionnaries are simply the CSM troop choice+ KT sprue. so i am guessing the patrol will come with the sprue.

So Chosen are basically bladeguard except without the shields so they have no invul save? In other words, they are worse bladeguard ... lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:

drbored wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

I believe legionnaries are simply the CSM troop choice+ KT sprue. so i am guessing the patrol will come with the sprue.

I wonder if the balefire tome can be taken on more than one unit. If it can, it will be wild. Its like every Legionaire squad will be like a rubric marine squad. Can cast 1 and deny 1. But it might be a legion command thing, in which case its only limited to 1 unit.

If warptalons are 2W each and gain "no fallback". That would make them pretty useful. No fallback is huge, especially against armies like Tau.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So Chosen are basically bladeguard except without the shields so they have no invul save? In other words, they are worse bladeguard ... lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:

drbored wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

I believe legionnaries are simply the CSM troop choice+ KT sprue. so i am guessing the patrol will come with the sprue.

I wonder if the balefire tome can be taken on more than one unit. If it can, it will be wild. Its like every Legionaire squad will be like a rubric marine squad. Can cast 1 and deny 1. But it might be a legion command thing, in which case its only limited to 1 unit.

If warptalons are 2W each and gain "no fallback". That would make them pretty useful. No fallback is huge, especially against armies like Tau.

I think Bladeguard and Chosen play very different roles. Chosen having access to combi weapons and an extra trait is pretty great.

As for the Legionairies... tough to say. What can they cast? Some boiled down smite? Might also cost quite a few points to equip, but might also be some good defense against psychic-heavy armies like thousand sons and grey knights.

And yeah, I look forward to Warp Talons being something to fear for once.

--

The combat patrol also makes me wonder what they'll do with the Obliterators and Venomcrawler. The oblits, VC, and greater possessed were all on one sprue in the start collecting box. The master of possession was on his own sprue, so easy to see him getting his own box, and the chaos marines were just monopose marines. But the Oblits and VC are kind of... important.

Obliterators just feels like they have too few shots even with the new profiles. Like D3 big shots? If they roll a 1... that's just one shot coming from a model that will likely cost 90 points? And its not even 3+D3 damage... (Even 3+D3 damage doesn't feel like its enough for so few shots). The Str 7 shot isn't much better. Its only D2 AP2 and there is so much -1 damage in the game now. Only the lower str profiles look more interesting because it has enough shots to justify the Obliterator's cost. But if its all 24 inch range... its just sort of limiting. 4 Havocs can pack 4 chain guns and shoot 32 shots anyway, which is not much worse than 3 obliterators shooting using the lowest profile. And 4 Havocs will probably be cheaper than 3 obliterators by quite a mile.

It feels like a missed opportunity with Obliterators if these rumors are true. Obliterators are specific only to CSM codex. They really should do something more interesting with Obliterators. Of course, there might be strategems for obliterators. But if the baseline stats are not great and needs to be propped up by strategems... its just not a great place to be.

My guess is at least Iron Warriors will have some way to prop oblits up but yeah unless they have the core keyword, don’t see much use for them sadly. And I own 15 lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clockwork, any news on Abaddon? Thank you again for all your hard work.

Thanks for the summary clockworkchris!

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Marks:
Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS

Sounds like they won't actually do anything...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)
vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound

Cool. Another round of "Icon dies = we forget who we're dedicated to". Joy.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
''Daemonic Gifts'': (purchaseable upgrade)
Khorne: +1S on the charge
Nurgle: -1 to wound
Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save
Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase

Games Workshop: Quantifying the statement 'Bare Minimum' at every possible opportunity!

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Emperor's children
Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

Still sucks that they're in the Codex. [EDIT]: And by that I mean, given that Cult Troops have been removed, it sucks that these haven't, as it means no update for them. They technically don't even have miniatures now, given that the kit you use the conversion parts with is no longer sold.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice

And for those of us not playing a Traitor Legion...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords

So no Bolter/Chainsword, and probably not on the Champ either.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)

Malibu Stacey's new hats.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

This is so stupid...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Fallen
No in the codex

Coming soon to a DLC campaign book near you! Maybe they'll be fighting the (conspicuously absent) Farsight Enclaves, or full Eldar Corsair armies.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

Make it stop...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Terminators
Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

I said make it stop!!!!!!!!!!!

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Mutilators
no longer in the book

Games Workshop: Never missing opportunities to miss opportunities!

I think the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex is getting a second lease of life with these rumours. First they took our Daemons, and now our fething Cult Troops. Except Noise Marines, because feth EC players, apparently.

I could see the movement of plague marines, rubric marines, khorne berzerkers, and noise marines out of the Chaos Marine codex to be the first step in creating a more unique identity for chaos marines and keeping those things just for their respective legions.

I know, I know, fluff says otherwise, but we'll see what happens.

They will still let us play with cult marines. But the cult marines in a CSM army won't get the cool stuff, unlike if they were in their own respective legion.

Here is a little collage of what we didn't already know, for those who aren't bothered to compare:

Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each

Relics
Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+


CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon


Other:
The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle

Thanks again for the update Clockworkchris !

So if I understood it correctly Chaos legionaries are taking the place of the regular CSM troupe ?
And do you know if EC still have a way to take noise marines as troupes ? Please, tell me there is

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I think the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex is getting a second lease of life with these rumours. First they took our Daemons, and now our fething Cult Troops. Except Noise Marines, because feth EC players, apparently.

I am really looking forward to 4th ed CSM codex defenders to crawl out of the woodwork and argue completely wrecking the faction is good, actually.

jeeze those combi weapon restricions (1 combi Plas ) reek of can't have the CSM have something over loyalists..

Also build a warband better be AMAZING, else chosen suck even more, because lord knows nobody is going to run combi weapons with them due to the forced hodgepodge and d1 melee weapons ain't it chief.

Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

I know this is not for all but if they would at least move all the other items into Legends. That is not to say this new iteration of no models/no rules is very bad for the hobby but at least that way you can keep some of your old models in the game

So normal the CSM (legionaries) now have a profile of a primaris veteran? (Three attacks.) I don't oppose this, but it is a tad strange after years of GW insisting that normal CSM are no better than tacticals.

 Crimson wrote:
So normal the CSM (legionaries) now have a profile of a primaris veteran? (Three attacks.) I don't oppose this, but it is a tad strange after years of GW insisting that normal CSM are no better than tacticals.

GW has flip-flopped between CSMs being 'better' than standard SMs for a few editions; from 4-7th it was possible to have CSMs with both boltguns and chainswords, but this option was lost in 8th. A single attack isn't that much better, sure, but they were still in hand to hand superior to tactical Space Marines.

After ready this again, this all seems like a bunch of convoluted crap with annoying restrictions. No Greater Possessed, Cult Marines datasheets, Mutilators, or marks of Chaos beyond core and characters? No mention of Renegades beyond Creations and Red Corsairs? Three strange weapons profiles for Obliterators? Cult Marines don't get Legion traits? And the the icon of wrath seems far worse than what we have now. My excitement for this codex has really gone down. The Legion traits are good, but imo, they don't make up the other stuff that I mentioned.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
After ready this again, this all seems like a bunch of convoluted crap with annoying restrictions. No Greater Possessed, Cult Marines datasheets, Mutilators, or marks of Chaos beyond core and characters? No mention of Renegades beyond Creations and Red Corsairs? Three strange weapons profiles for Obliterators? Cult Marines don't get Legion traits? And the the icon of wrath seems far worse than what we have now. My excitement for this codex has really gone down. The Legion traits are good, but imo, they don't make up the other stuff that I mentioned.

To be fair Greater Possessed have been around all of 5 minutes and could easily be rolled back in as squad leader or something, mutilators were a terrible idea from the get-go, the marks kinda makes sense from a "tournament balance lever" angle but I don't like it. The renegades are the build your own option, the reason creations and corsairs get a shout is both they have existing models and have been historically pushed more. Profiles for oblits is fine, less random is always good. Cult marines is a shame and I dislike it, icon of wrath on it's own isn't worth losing sleep over.

The biggest issue I see, which nobody has mentioned yet, is that combat patrol box simply has to be wrong or it becomes a literal impossibility to get hold of master of possessions, venomcrawlers and obliterators.

So... until they launch the new world eaters codex, no one gets to play with Khorne berzerkers once the 9th edition CSM codex drops? That's kind of sad face.

It does put WE armies in a weird position. I guess they would use the 8th ed CSM codex until their codex comes out. But that leads to all sorts of chaos. So maybe...

If we are lucky the could just throw out a balance sheet or FAQ for the Berzerkers and call it a day till the WE Sup dropps.
Didn't they do that with the DA, BA and SW when Codex SM dropped?

Yeah but those Supplements were all released within 3 months of the Marine Codex and those armies could still be played without them. This ain't that.
The fact there seems to be so much radical change makes these rumours less than believable IMO.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Yea, the only thing I had to do was shift around which models were in which squads, and ignore some bolt pistols (although this new batch clarified that, so it seems the bolt pistols are a-okay!)

 Gert wrote:
Yeah but those Supplements were all released within 3 months of the Marine Codex and those armies could still be played without them. This ain't that.
The fact there seems to be so much radical change makes these rumours less than believable IMO.

How so? if the FAQ Supplement just introduces the Berzerker and a couple of Strats, Traits, relic, like back in the Index areas first CA everything can work till a month later the WE Dex dropps

This does not mean these rumors are true. For me at least this does not make them more or less believable.

For all we know GW could just not care as C SM/Legions are just not important for them.
We need to remember for GW Money comes first and then comes the model, only a loooong way after that any hobby aspect comes in.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice

And for those of us not playing a Traitor Legion...

I knew I never should have used that monkey paw!!!
I always wanted a better distinction between HH chaos marines and the renegades with separate datasheets for each but not like this!

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
How so? if the FAQ Supplement just introduces the Berzerker and a couple of Strats, Traits, relic, like back in the Index areas first CA everything can work till a month later the WE Dex dropps

Ok, but you know that WE aren't going to be a Supplement right? If a WE book does get made it will be in the same vein as Tsons and DG, not similar to DA or SW where 90% of the roster is shared with a parent Codex. You can't play Tsons and DG using the CSM Codex unlike DA and SW which you can play with just the SM Codex. Even discounting the fact that WE aren't confirmed, we have absolutely no timeframe for when the Codex would be released, and I would be very surprised if it was a month after the CSM Codex.

For all we know GW could just not care as C SM/Legions are just not important for them.
We need to remember for GW Money comes first and then comes the model, only a loooong way after that any hobby aspect comes in.

Not exactly sure what you mean here.

 Gert wrote:

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
How so? if the FAQ Supplement just introduces the Berzerker and a couple of Strats, Traits, relic, like back in the Index areas first CA everything can work till a month later the WE Dex dropps

Ok, but you know that WE aren't going to be a Supplement right? If a WE book does get made it will be in the same vein as Tsons and DG, not similar to DA or SW where 90% of the roster is shared with a parent Codex. You can't play Tsons and DG using the CSM Codex unlike DA and SW which you can play with just the SM Codex. Even discounting the fact that WE aren't confirmed, we have absolutely no timeframe for when the Codex would be released, and I would be very surprised if it was a month after the CSM Codex.

I am well aware but without the Codex WE no one will be able to field Berzerker, thus I expect the Codex to drop right on the heels of Codex CSM. Just because that is what I would want, not what I necessarily expect GW to do, see below.

For all we know GW could just not care as C SM/Legions are just not important for them.
We need to remember for GW Money comes first and then comes the model, only a loooong way after that any hobby aspect comes in.

Not exactly sure what you mean here.

I was trying to elaborate on the previous statement about the reliability of the rumors. There is no pattern or reason behind what GW does except these two things. So even if i am not right and the Codex WE comes at Christmas the rest of the rumors could be true just because no designer made any model designs for WE yet and GW things they need to sell more SM (all flavors) not any other faction.

On the WE front, I suspect they would do some kind of a stopgap Online PDF to hold people over until The actual codex comes out. It would probably be very basic, but that would track.

Did I miss what is on the KT sprue somewhere in this thread? Curious what kind of upgrades there are.

Besides the Cursed weapon and killing Terminator loadouts, I admit I am liking what I see so far. Thanks again for posting these rumors.

EDIT: I will say that I am pretty suprised by the Greater possessed unit entry not existing anymore. Their Aura and Buff will be missed if you can't get that anymore.

Hi, could I honestly ask what purpose the chosen serve? I have never used em before but it seems to me that possessed are scarier in combat and I could use havocs for shootyshoot. I guess I am no good at spotting what makes a good unit but I just can't work out what role they are supposed to play

Re missing WE, another solution is that Dex drops first, then they are accessible cult troops in the csm Dex

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
I am well aware but without the Codex WE no one will be able to field Berzerker, thus I expect the Codex to drop right on the heels of Codex CSM. Just because that is what I would want, not what I necessarily expect GW to do, see below.

I was trying to elaborate on the previous statement about the reliability of the rumors. There is no pattern or reason behind what GW does except these two things. So even if i am not right and the Codex WE comes at Christmas the rest of the rumors could be true just because no designer made any model designs for WE yet and GW things they need to sell more SM (all flavors) not any other faction.

When was the last time a Codex was released without new models alongside it? When was the last time a brand new army was released without models alongside it?
GW doesn't do new Codexes without new models and GW certainly doesn't do new armies without new models.

 Sasori wrote:
On the WE front, I suspect they would do some kind of a stopgap Online PDF to hold people over until The actual codex comes out. It would probably be very basic, but that would track.

I think the same, but also given "World Eaters and Berserkers are missing from the codex" is completely impossible for GW to not address I'm going to assume the CSM launch is around when we'll get the first reveal/teaser of the WE 'dex.

 Sasori wrote:
Did I miss what is on the KT sprue somewhere in this thread? Curious what kind of upgrades there are.

So far it sounds like at least a balefire tome and heavy chainaxe.

Possibly a daemon weapon for the champion (if it's distinct from the power sword) and new Chaos icons to make an icon bearer.

 Sasori wrote:
Besides the Cursed weapon and killing Terminator loadouts, I admit I am liking what I see so far. Thanks again for posting these rumors.

EDIT: I will say that I am pretty suprised by the Greater possessed unit entry not existing anymore. Their Aura and Buff will be missed if you can't get that anymore.

Yeah that's pretty garbage if they add a new unit with models only to remove or merge it into a different unit after only 1 edition.

I suppose new standard possessed could end up being greater possessed with the squad having the +1 strength aura and all, but it was kinda cool having Possessed "lieutenants".

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So... until they launch the new world eaters codex, no one gets to play with Khorne berzerkers once the 9th edition CSM codex drops? That's kind of sad face.

Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

When was the last time a Codex was released without new models alongside it? When was the last time a brand new army was released without models alongside it?
GW doesn't do new Codexes without new models and GW certainly doesn't do new armies without new models.

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gert wrote:

When was the last time a Codex was released without new models alongside it? When was the last time a brand new army was released without models alongside it?
GW doesn't do new Codexes without new models and GW certainly doesn't do new armies without new models.

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Which resulted in a bizzare situation where a good 1/3rd of an army wasn't in the codex.

 Jack Flask wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
On the WE front, I suspect they would do some kind of a stopgap Online PDF to hold people over until The actual codex comes out. It would probably be very basic, but that would track.

I think the same, but also given "World Eaters and Berserkers are missing from the codex" is completely impossible for GW to not address I'm going to assume the CSM launch is around when we'll get the first reveal/teaser of the WE 'dex.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if they announced codex World Eater and then left WE players dead in the water beyond that

 Platuan4th wrote:
Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.

No, because Black Templars were included in the Imperial Fists Supplement. But once again, Black Templars could be played without a Supplement because the rules for fielding them were included in the Space Marine Codex. World Eaters will undoubtedly follow the other God-Marked Legions in that they will be entirely separate from CSM with minimal crossover i.e. vehicles, Chaos Lords, Cultists, thereby not being similar to the process used with Space Marines. Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to say this?

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Just as a quick check:
Guard - Agreed, I couldn't find any new releases.
Grey Knights - Grandmaster Voldus was made available as a separate release from the Triumvirate of the Primarch IIRC.
Tyranids - Agreed.
Mechanicus - Were those units included in the Codex though or were there rules included in Engine War? If they were in the Codex and then delayed model release it still counts.
Thousand Sons - Got access to Mutalith and more Tzaangors.
Necrons - Got a plastic Cryptek with the little Spyder pet.

So I do agree that some Codexes didn't get releases. That being said, would you not agree that GW pairs Codex updates with model releases and that the precedent set with 9th would indicate that not a single Codex will not receive at least one new model? And that releasing a brand new army without a single new kit would be unheard of, yes?

Not sure what to make of the removal of greater possessed, and to a lesser extent mutilators. The way GW sells models, I don't forsee the Greater Possessed minis many of us already have being all that useful - it would be like if you bought a boxset that came with 2 random tempestus scions. They are sold in boxes of 5 and fielded in units or 5 or 10 (or 4 if you're running a command squad) - yes you can field a unit of 7, but thats not something that most players do. So if the new Possessed minis end up being "greater possessed" sized and you're fielding units 10, they are probably being sold in boxes of 10 and theres nothing you can really do with them. Even if they are units of 5-10, I think most players will end up buying a 2nd box so they can field a full 10 if they need to rather than say "lemme take a squad of 7 cuz I have some spares lol".

And unfortunately I dont really see any other role for them in the book, other than maybe as Exalted Champions/Lords or maybe in squads of Chosen (in which case the same problem with boxes of 5 applies IMO)?

Mutilators feel like less of a problem to me, as they are an older mini (as opposed to something that literally comes in the current start collecting box for the faction) and could conceivably be fielded as obliterators in melee mode, and frankly I don't know that anybody will much miss them.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.

No, because Black Templars were included in the Imperial Fists Supplement.

Wrong.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.

No, because Black Templars were included in the Imperial Fists Supplement. But once again, Black Templars could be played without a Supplement because the rules for fielding them were included in the Space Marine Codex. World Eaters will undoubtedly follow the other God-Marked Legions in that they will be entirely separate from CSM with minimal crossover i.e. vehicles, Chaos Lords, Cultists, thereby not being similar to the process used with Space Marines. Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to say this?

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Mechanicus - Were those units included in the Codex though or were there rules included in Engine War? If they were in the Codex and then delayed model release it still counts.

Nope, they were first included in Engine War. I believe by the end of 8th it piled up to like... uh, 9, or so units not included in the Codex? Three variants of the Flier, both variants of the flying infantry, both variants of the cavalry and both variants of the transport.

 Gert wrote:

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Just as a quick check:
Guard - Agreed, I couldn't find any new releases.
Grey Knights - Grandmaster Voldus was made available as a separate release from the Triumvirate of the Primarch IIRC.
Tyranids - Agreed.
Mechanicus - Were those units included in the Codex though or were there rules included in Engine War? If they were in the Codex and then delayed model release it still counts.
Thousand Sons - Got access to Mutalith and more Tzaangors.
Necrons - Got a plastic Cryptek with the little Spyder pet.

So I do agree that some Codexes didn't get releases. That being said, would you not agree that GW pairs Codex updates with model releases and that the precedent set with 9th would indicate that not a single Codex will not receive at least one new model? And that releasing a brand new army without a single new kit would be unheard of, yes?

Existing models added to a book don't count as a release. The new Mechanicus units were added in Engine War. If you're counting Voldus, then you can't count the Canoptek Cloak Cryptek which wasn't individually released for another 6+ months(it was released in the same vs box as the Armiger Warglaives hence why I didn't count it as a "Codex release") after, in which case, the current Grey Knights and Thousand Sons Codexes didn't get a release, either(neither "release" has gotten a separate release from Witchfire).

Ah ok, my apologies.
And yet my point stands does it not? Every single Space Marine Subfaction could still be played with or without its Supplement. WE will categorically not be able to do this following on from what we've seen with DG and Tsons.


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 Platuan4th wrote:
Existing models added to a book don't count as a release. The new Mechanicus units were added in Engine War. If you're counting Voldus, then you can't count the Canoptek Cloak Cryptek which wasn't individually released for another 6+ months(it was released in the same vs box as the Armiger Warglaives hence why I didn't count it as a "Codex release") after, in which case, the current Grey Knights and Thousand Sons Codexes didn't get a release, either(neither "release" has gotten a separate release from Witchfire).

I thought Necrons got the Cryptek at the same time as the Codex, oh well. As for Voldus, absolutely counts because neither the unit nor the model was in the previous Codex. For the Infernal Master and Crowe, they were released with the Codexes in the Hexfire box and it's only factors outwith GW's control that they haven't been released individually post-Codex.

Also, nice dodge of the question I asked. Always easier to be right when you never have to answer

Greater Possessed existing at all always confused me.
Why not just make new regular Possessed?

Yeah, it was a weird add, but I think they were trying to introduce more of a chaos equivalent to Lieutenants or Ancients, etc. So they came up with the idea of a chaos space marine more daemonically infused than normal, to the extent that they had a daemonic aura that inspired/empowered other nearby units, whereas regular possessed were just mutated and killy madlads.

One wonders why they couldn't do a separate get-you-by PDF for EC as well...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One wonders why they couldn't do a separate get-you-by PDF for EC as well...

In what capacity?

By all reasonable assumption GW isn't prepared to spin them off as their own force so they're still printed in the main 'dex.

What possible reason would there be to make a PDF list for 2 unit entries and a handful of traits if it won't even be updated for likely another edition? Sadistic parity?

People keep clinging to the idea that Emperor's Children will get a codex soon, but they're deluding themselves. If World Eaters really do get their codex this year, look at how many years it took between Thousand Sons' 1st codex and them. It's probably years away.

Just like how in December people kept posting that the color purple on the advent engine articles was hinting at Emperor's Children showing up. It's just copium.

 DO IT TO IT wrote:
People keep clinging to the idea that Emperor's Children will get a codex soon, but they're deluding themselves.

I don't think anyone is clinging to that idea, or deluding themselves with anything. They're in the upcoming Chaos book, whereas WE aren't, and that's pretty clear cut.

I'm just saying that they should be cut because they should be doing an EC book.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Except I made a squad kitted out with all plasma guns.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Except I made a squad kitted out with all plasma guns.

So did I for one of my Chosen squads, your point?

 DO IT TO IT wrote:
People keep clinging to the idea that Emperor's Children will get a codex soon, but they're deluding themselves. If World Eaters really do get their codex this year, look at how many years it took between Thousand Sons' 1st codex and them. It's probably years away.

Just like how in December people kept posting that the color purple on the advent engine articles was hinting at Emperor's Children showing up. It's just copium.

TBF Tsons were released in November 2016 in Wrath of Magnus and DG were (properly) released in September 2017. Not that much time inbetween.
With both factions now fleshed out (sort of in the case of the Tsons), I wouldn't be surprised to see WE at the tail end of 2022/early 2023. But EC? Nah. If they're coming in 9th its going to be dead last after every other possible option (by my count Imperial Knights, Chaos Knights, CSM, Daemons, Nids, the 6 Marine Supplements).

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Except I made a squad kitted out with all plasma guns.

So did I for one of my Chosen squads, your point?

Assuming Manfred von Drakken means combi-plasmas, since straight up plasma guns were a 1/squad thing during 8th edition, still means that most of the models are likely legal still. Just can't be used together in a single unit. Like mine. I now have 3 units worth of combi-plasmas, and am free to model all the chain axes, power axes, chainswords etc that I want without worrying about taking 3 hours to resolve 1 units attacks.

Rihgu wrote:
Assuming Manfred von Drakken means combi-plasmas, since straight up plasma guns were a 1/squad thing during 8th edition, still means that most of the models are likely legal still. Just can't be used together in a single unit. Like mine. I now have 3 units worth of combi-plasmas, and am free to model all the chain axes, power axes, chainswords etc that I want without worrying about taking 3 hours to resolve 1 units attacks.

Actually, Chosen could have up to 5 Special Weapons in a unit. 4 could replace their Boltgun with Combi-Weapons or Special Weapons and an additional Chosen could replace their Boltgun with a Special or Heavy Weapon. So in a unit of 10, you could have 1 Champion, 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns, and 4 with Boltguns.

oh ho dang, so you can. My mind blanked out after Combi-Weapons every single time because why would you ever take the exact same weapon, with an upside, for no additional cost. (Except combi-flamers, for some reason, apparently?)

Why yes, I would like to completely specialize in killing vehicles and never have any option to use a bolter as well.

 Gert wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Assuming Manfred von Drakken means combi-plasmas, since straight up plasma guns were a 1/squad thing during 8th edition, still means that most of the models are likely legal still. Just can't be used together in a single unit. Like mine. I now have 3 units worth of combi-plasmas, and am free to model all the chain axes, power axes, chainswords etc that I want without worrying about taking 3 hours to resolve 1 units attacks.

Actually, Chosen could have up to 5 Special Weapons in a unit. 4 could replace their Boltgun with Combi-Weapons or Special Weapons and an additional Chosen could replace their Boltgun with a Special or Heavy Weapon. So in a unit of 10, you could have 1 Champion, 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns, and 4 with Boltguns.

And said Champion could take a Combi-Weapon from the Champion Weapon list, so you could do 5 Specials AND a Combi of the same weapon. Suffice to say, 3 of my Chosen squad are maxed out(Plasma for my Scourged, Meltas for my Iron Warriors, Flamers for my Night Lords). This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

 Platuan4th wrote:
This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

See I never really liked that Tsons, a Legion that had every single Marine turned into dust-filled magic-powered automatons, could have units like Raptors or Chosen. Why would they have Chosen when Rubrics exist? How could they have the fast unit of Raptors when the Legion's premier unit was slow-moving? I do think there should have been a Havoc variant of the Rubrics and at least some form of Daemon Engine or special magic weapon but a lot of things just didn't make sense for me. I do think Tsons got the short end of the stick when it came to unique units.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

See I never really liked that Tsons, a Legion that had every single Marine turned into dust-filled magic-powered automatons, could have units like Raptors or Chosen. Why would they have Chosen when Rubrics exist? How could they have the fast unit of Raptors when the Legion's premier unit was slow-moving? I do think there should have been a Havoc variant of the Rubrics and at least some form of Daemon Engine or special magic weapon but a lot of things just didn't make sense for me. I do think Tsons got the short end of the stick when it came to unique units.

Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

See I never really liked that Tsons, a Legion that had every single Marine turned into dust-filled magic-powered automatons, could have units like Raptors or Chosen. Why would they have Chosen when Rubrics exist? How could they have the fast unit of Raptors when the Legion's premier unit was slow-moving? I do think there should have been a Havoc variant of the Rubrics and at least some form of Daemon Engine or special magic weapon but a lot of things just didn't make sense for me. I do think Tsons got the short end of the stick when it came to unique units.

To be honest I lost faith in GW Legion design when we went from 7th to 8th ed and the 8th ed DG Codex.

Traitor Legions literally gave us Death Guard Havocs - after they appeared in the artwork since 3rd edition 40k and that lasted all of 5-6 months. And then they took it away.

8th ed then took Power Fists from DG Terminators as well...something which had been around since 2nd ed 40k! Hells, even our specialist Terminator type in 30k has Power Fists!

Scarab Occult Terminators weren't that terrible in comparison simply because they remembered that the base load out of a Chaos Terminator was power weapon/combi-bolter and so the Scarab Occult maintain that...

But yeah, some of their design decisions are off and utterly bizarre at times.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

 clockworkchris9 wrote:

Cypher
In the codex

lol...this is my favorite part of the leaks...

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

No, I get it. Just generic musings on how the Tsons were botched so badly despite having some good potential.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

No, I get it. Just generic musings on how the Tsons were botched so badly despite having some good potential.

Tsons were botched?

No Cult troops in CSM makes me pretty sad. I really enjoyed the old LoC, Rubrics, Flamers vibe back in the day, but I am looking forward to the Chosen.

If Rubrics were in this book I was tempted to use them in CSM given the icons and gifts so perhaps not a terrible idea to separate them.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

To be honest I lost faith in GW Legion design when we went from 7th to 8th ed and the 8th ed DG Codex.

Traitor Legions literally gave us Death Guard Havocs - after they appeared in the artwork since 3rd edition 40k and that lasted all of 5-6 months. And then they took it away.

8th ed then took Power Fists from DG Terminators as well...something which had been around since 2nd ed 40k! Hells, even our specialist Terminator type in 30k has Power Fists!

Scarab Occult Terminators weren't that terrible in comparison simply because they remembered that the base load out of a Chaos Terminator was power weapon/combi-bolter and so the Scarab Occult maintain that...

But yeah, some of their design decisions are off and utterly bizarre at times.

Yes, people didn't get to keep everything 100% the same as before. But that hardly takes away from the fact that the Tsons got 6 kits to the DG's 20 odd individual kits (including the Starter Set and ETB boxes) and that the DG range made much better use of Nurgle versions of regular CSM and SM units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tsons were botched?

No Cult troops in CSM makes me pretty sad. I really enjoyed the old LoC, Rubrics, Flamers vibe back in the day, but I am looking forward to the Chosen.

If Rubrics were in this book I was tempted to use them in CSM given the icons and gifts so perhaps not a terrible idea to separate them.

Comparatively speaking IMO. Tsons got a small release for 7th then in 8th got 4 AoS units ported to the Codex. It was just lazy and a disappointment after seeing how good the DG release was.

 Gert wrote:
Comparatively speaking IMO. Tsons got a small release for 7th then in 8th got 4 AoS units ported to the Codex. It was just lazy and a disappointment after seeing how good the DG release was.

Ah, I get you. Thousand Sons are a little different mechanically so I'm not super concerned about that dynamic since the new book pushes the psychic angle really well. Maybe we'll see some other Rubric variants in the future.

It's something that I would be concerned about for potential WE and EC releases. Would we see something like Tsons where there are only 10 unique units and half of them are variants of the same base unit (sorcerer variants) or would we see a more expansive release like DG where more aspects of each Legion/God are seen (like with the Plague Surgeon or Tallyman).

Personally I think it's kind of amazing just how many releases Death Guard got, yet despite that they still managed to invalidate every squad in my army.

 Gert wrote:
It's something that I would be concerned about for potential WE and EC releases. Would we see something like Tsons where there are only 10 unique units and half of them are variants of the same base unit (sorcerer variants) or would we see a more expansive release like DG where more aspects of each Legion/God are seen (like with the Plague Surgeon or Tallyman).

Lore wise there's a little more freedom there. I don't expect World Eaters to be particularly innovative character wise though being they're all nuts.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Really? I recall that they had a lot going for them.

Wouldn't a WE army look pretty much like the box set they offered a little while ago (36 Berzerkers and an HQ)?

Not if GW follows the design cues from DG. We'll see Khornate versions of at least Chaos Lords, Cultists, and Terminators, with other possible units in the form of Champion variants, Dark Apostle equivalents, and a Daemon Engine or two. What would be really nice is a unit of Bloodcrusher Cavalry.

 Gert wrote:
Not if GW follows the design cues from DG. We'll see Khornate versions of at least Chaos Lords, Cultists, and Terminators, with other possible units in the form of Champion variants, Dark Apostle equivalents, and a Daemon Engine or two. What would be really nice is a unit of Bloodcrusher Cavalry.

Would be weird if they didn't get the Master of Executions, too, considering they're supposed to be Khorne followers.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Would be weird if they didn't get the Master of Executions, too, considering they're supposed to be Khorne followers.

I file that under Champion variants. Stuff that you'd see in a Legion or Chapter command squad basically e.g. Apothecaries, Standard Bearers.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Would be weird if they didn't get the Master of Executions, too, considering they're supposed to be Khorne followers.

But he's not a World Eater Master of Executions, so that could cause some hang-ups.

 Gert wrote:
Not if GW follows the design cues from DG. We'll see Khornate versions of at least Chaos Lords, Cultists, and Terminators, with other possible units in the form of Champion variants, Dark Apostle equivalents, and a Daemon Engine or two. What would be really nice is a unit of Bloodcrusher Cavalry.

It all depends if WE is a supplement or a stand alone. I can't see them getting many kits if they're just a supplement and things like cult terminators will just be a data sheet...maybe an upgrade sprue.

Why would it be a supplement?

I mean, all the various Marine Chapters are in the Marine book. WE have been removed from the Chaos book. They can hardly supplement something they're not part of.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It all depends if WE is a supplement or a stand alone. I can't see them getting many kits if they're just a supplement and things like cult terminators will just be a data sheet...maybe an upgrade sprue.

Just going off of what the general plan seems to be i.e. a 40k version of AoS with the God factions as their own Codexes, I would be surprised to see it as a Supplement outside of inclusion in a campaign book like Cadians or Leviathan. And they aren't "proper" supplements like the SM ones or Traitor Legions was.

I think the issue with DG, and to some extent TS, is that they weren't stand alone armies for the longest time. They were grouped together in the CSM Codex and so they'd all have access to the same units. The DG terminators you'd build would come from the standard CSM terminator kit (with maybe FW torsos if you were feeling generous). Then when they finally got new units for their separate armies, they had to be completely new kits. Upgrade sprues wouldn't have been enough to match the rest of the army, so the terminators, etc, got redesigned.

I am fine with Tsons actually. Love that they play rather differently from other armies. Rubrics and scarabs are finally the mainstays of the army, as they should be.

DG also has their own unique style which I like. Just sad that their defining trait Digustingly resilient for -1 dmg is now given to so many other faction units.

I am still not sure what GW sees as "defining" for CSM. We will see. Removing WE from the codex takes away even more flavor from the codex. So, wonder just how the CSM armies playstyle will be like. Shooty? (We will never outshoot the shooty armies like Tau, admech). Fighty? (WE are out of the codex, they will reserve the most fighty styles for that codex). Tanky? That's DG's style. Psychic heavy? That's Tsons style. So balanced ? Jack of all traits, master of none? That's the most generic and boring, honestly. Oh well, we will see.

Has any other faction had to deal with big swathes of their army being made out of date, in recent editions? Like, even as far back as 4th edition.

Chaos Marines just keep getting the shaft. Instead of giving us models, they give us restrictions that invalidate more and more of our armies, taking away options and leaving us with less.

Aside from maybe Astra Militarum where there's straight up whole regiments that you just can't purchase any more, has any other faction had to deal with this level of invalidating restrictions? The only other thing I can think of is Space Wolves blood claws that could no longer take power fists and chainswords, but that change happened ages ago.

CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon

So, is the 1 special + 1 heavy for a 5 man squad, or 10? Can the Aspiring Champion still take a combi-weapon? And is the daemon blade and plasma pistol standard, or optional? Not impressed with the "new stuff". "Malibu Stacie's new hat", as H.B.M.C puts it.

Crimson wrote:So normal the CSM (legionaries) now have a profile of a primaris veteran? (Three attacks.) I don't oppose this, but it is a tad strange after years of GW insisting that normal CSM are no better than tacticals.

We're probably losing Hateful Assault, so same attacks standard as "normal" primaris get when charging/charged/HI, less than a "veteran" (Hah!) primaris when doing the same. So sort of in between.

Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

And that's another thing: what about Renegades? Are you now suddenly a "Legionaire" as soon as you turn against the Corpse God? Or are Renegades getting a separate (and probably worse. Remember "no VOTLW"?) datasheet?

Pretty sure VotLW is a strat now anyway but it's a weird name, yes. Especially when Rubric Marines and Plague Marines are a thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would it be a supplement?

I mean, all the various Marine Chapters are in the Marine book. WE have been removed from the Chaos book. They can hardly supplement something they're not part of.

I guess it depends how many kits they could put on it. Maybe if it's like a late year release they could fit it in? I dunno. Just seems like a lot of stuff.

 Gert wrote:
Pretty sure VotLW is a strat now anyway but it's a weird name, yes. Especially when Rubric Marines and Plague Marines are a thing.

Yes, a strat that Renegades couldn't use. That's my point. Are they going to lock them out of it, and other "Legionaire" stuff, again?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I guess it depends how many kits they could put on it. Maybe if it's like a late year release they could fit it in? I dunno. Just seems like a lot of stuff.

Angron
2 Characters*
[Fancy Unit]**
Berzerker Terminators
New Berzerkers
[Chaff Unit]***
Slaughterbrute****

*"Skull Lord" and some sort of "Khorne Chaplain"
**Bikes, or guys riding Juggers, or whatever. Roughly the equivalent to the Exalted Sorcerer/Deathshroud box
***Make it Beastmen. Tie it into an AoS Beastmen re-release, so the kits can cross between 40k and AoS ala Tzaangors
****Lets 40k players use the other half of that box

So 1 big ticket item, three regular boxes, 2 clampacks, and then 1-2 potentially repurposed/duel purpose kits. They keep the use of the Daemon Prince, the Executioner guy, Terminator Lords, Helbrutes, Possessed and all the vehicles/current Daemon Engines.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And that's another thing: what about Renegades?

We all float Legionaire down here!

What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

Sure, you could have gone renegade at any point so you could realistically use the strat.
However, the Legions have a unique perspective on what the Long War is, something that a renegade could never experience. They didn't just turn to Chaos for power or freedom, they had a cause they believed in and a leader they thought would lead them to victory and then failed. This kind of bitter hatred can be bred into a newly inducted Legionary by a group who were there and witnessed the height of the Legion's power but not so much an Astartes who, potentially just months prior, was a loyal servant of the Emperor. Successive generations of Renegades could obviously indoctrinate their hatred of the Imperium onto their next generations but I argue it's still not the same experience as a member of the Traitor Legions.
Mostly I would argue that it's a simple way to differentiate the Legions and the Chapters.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

I don't disagree - I'd rather a Brass Scorpion myself! - but if the issue is the size of the release, then the Slaughterbrute helps fill the role of a "big monster" whilst simultaneously causing GW no extra expenditure (wouldn't want them to have to raise the prices twice this year! ) and opening up another avenue for purchase for that single kit beyond AoS and 1KSons players.

(Full Disclosure: I own a Slaughterbrute, simply because it was cool, and I'd love for it to get 40k rules like my Mutalith did! )

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Personally I think it's kind of amazing just how many releases Death Guard got, yet despite that they still managed to invalidate every squad in my army.

One squad in your army may be invalidated. One squad may lose a model to still be valid. One squad may...

EviscerationPlague wrote:
One squad in your army may be invalidated. One squad may lose a model to still be valid. One squad may...

Heheheh. Very nice. That one got me.

Me personally I’d like to see the return of the Chaos Cannon of Khorne or Chaos Cauldron of Blood. Or would those just be considered daemons now :(

I kinda thought the skulldozer was an update of the combined wheeled/tower daemon engines already?

It was a Lord of Battle kinda mixed with a Cauldron of Blood and a Death Dealer.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a Lord of Battle kinda mixed with a Cauldron of Blood and a Death Dealer.

Likewise cannon of khorne = daemons skull cannon in concept iirc

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a Lord of Battle kinda mixed with a Cauldron of Blood and a Death Dealer.

...Warhammer is a silly thing isn't it ?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Iron Warriors and Obliterators will FOREVER live rent free in the heads of the anti CSM 3.5 ed codex people. The entire codex must be condemned on that basis.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

and there is me who started TS with the 3.5 Codex and had a lot of fun as they just "sucked" compared to IW, and I still think the list was better than anything the new stand alone Codex added (mainly because I don't play Codex Tzaangors)

For all the issues of 3.5ed CSM (it's very clear from even a brief flick-through that there's plenty of trap options and plenty of "just pick this to win lol") that there is mountains upon mountains of flavour. Everything can be customised, everything can be made to be cool. Sonic Predators, Rubricane Havocs.

All that is gone now. Sure you can have 'count-as' stuff, but the lack of the actual options is well, noticeable.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

And that's another thing: what about Renegades? Are you now suddenly a "Legionaire" as soon as you turn against the Corpse God? Or are Renegades getting a separate (and probably worse. Remember "no VOTLW"?) datasheet?

Heard this originally and thought, perhaps there will be 2 datasheets.

Not sure why they'd abandon Renegades in favor of Legionaires. Certainly would not fit Red Corsairs, who appear to be featured prominently in the Codex.

One other thing: the dual handed Chainaxe, which appears to be an option for Aspiring Champions. If this is a thing, it will probably be more of a thing in World Eaters Codex. I have a couple metal Khorne CSMs featuring one, very interesting models.

I don't think there is much point in gettin stuck on the unit name. It was confusing that Chaos Space Marines was the name of both the unit and the faction, so it makes sense to change the name. But that the unit is called 'Legionaries' doesn't mean they cannot be used to represent renegades.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

I don't disagree - I'd rather a Brass Scorpion myself! - but if the issue is the size of the release, then the Slaughterbrute helps fill the role of a "big monster" whilst simultaneously causing GW no extra expenditure (wouldn't want them to have to raise the prices twice this year! ) and opening up another avenue for purchase for that single kit beyond AoS and 1KSons players.

(Full Disclosure: I own a Slaughterbrute, simply because it was cool, and I'd love for it to get 40k rules like my Mutalith did! )

Well, why not both? Since the Slaughterbrute is essentially a "free" model for gw, there's really no downside for them to include it in the list.

blood reaper wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Iron Warriors and Obliterators will FOREVER live rent free in the heads of the anti CSM 3.5 ed codex people. The entire codex must be condemned on that basis.

Yeah, whenever someone starts complaining about 3.5 I always ask them "So, what exactly was broken about Night Lords in that book?". And then answer is always *crickets* . The complaints are always Iron Warriors and the Siren psychic power. So, stuff unavailable to 6 of the 9 Legions in the book.

@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

But it's not things. It's thing, one strat. I just don't see it as a problem.

 Gert wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

But it's not things. It's thing, one strat. I just don't see it as a problem.

But it was the strongest stratagem in the codex, so locking Renegades out of it essentially made them "weaker". It's similar to how at various times some of the Legions have been locked out of some or all Marks, and I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good call?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yeah, whenever someone starts complaining about 3.5 I always ask them "So, what exactly was broken about Night Lords in that book?". And then answer is always *crickets* . The complaints are always Iron Warriors and the Siren psychic power. So, stuff unavailable to 6 of the 9 Legions in the book.

3.5ed complainers either point to that (and you could've balanced IW simply by cutting the access to additional Obliterators and Heavy Support options and removing Siren) or attempt to begin a bizarre discourse on the presence of renegades. "But what about Renegades? The book doesn't feature Renegades!" (therefore all legion choices should be cut).

The stain of the 4th ed Codex has never left the faction. That codex sucks so much it has managed to wreck every subsequent codex.

You guys are reading way too much into HBMC reading way too much into a simple complaint of "Thousand Sons lacked options in 3.5".

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

Everyone who used it, maybe. Certainly not everyone who faced it - even if they were only having to face the IW aspect of the book.

@HBMC - Would you not have the Lord of Skulls on your list of potential units for the WE book? It is explicitly Khornate, after all.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

But it's not things. It's thing, one strat. I just don't see it as a problem.

But it was the strongest stratagem in the codex, so locking Renegades out of it essentially made them "weaker". It's similar to how at various times some of the Legions have been locked out of some or all Marks, and I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good call?

Never mind the 2 pages of strats, 5 extra warlord traits and a page of relics per legion they never got parity on.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

And that's another thing: what about Renegades? Are you now suddenly a "Legionaire" as soon as you turn against the Corpse God? Or are Renegades getting a separate (and probably worse. Remember "no VOTLW"?) datasheet?

GW probably realised that 99% of people play some form of Legion army. Renegade players are a distinct minority outside of when the tournament meta shifts a certain way.

I say this as someone with a small Renegade Chapter collection.

 Dysartes wrote:
@HBMC - Would you not have the Lord of Skulls on your list of potential units for the WE book? It is explicitly Khornate, after all.

I was more listing new things, but I guess it counts as a vehicle.

Bigger question though: Would it be cut from the CSM book?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

Everyone who used it, maybe. Certainly not everyone who faced it - even if they were only having to face the IW aspect of the book.

@HBMC - Would you not have the Lord of Skulls on your list of potential units for the WE book? It is explicitly Khornate, after all.

You do realize that those of us that played other Legions had to deal with the same IW cheese as well, right? And we still loved the codex.

Those of us who played Iron Warriors and didn't bring 3x3 Oblits, a Basilisk and whatever else was the 'meta' also had to deal with.

I brought Havocs, for crying out loud...

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

An army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

Thousand Sons don't have any, no reason to think World Eaters will. Thus far (admittedly its a sample size of 2) the only legion with its own unique wargear in the codex are the Death Guard, with 3 daemon engines (PBC, MBH, FBD, not including additional from forgeworld), plus a bevy of special and heavy weapons to select from across their vehicles and units. The only unique gear the Thousand sons have are warpflamers/heavy warplamers, soulreaper cannons, prosperine kopeshes and whatever their special cyclone missile launchers on terminators are called, everything else is bog standard chaos marines kit (except for, arguably, inferno boltguns). Even then the terminator missile launchers aren't particularly unique themselves. I would love for 1kSons to get the same treatment DG did, and I hope WE get that same treatment too.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

Thousand Sons don't have any, no reason to think World Eaters will. Thus far (admittedly its a sample size of 2) the only legion with its own unique wargear in the codex are the Death Guard, with 3 daemon engines (PBC, MBH, FBD, not including additional from forgeworld), plus a bevy of special and heavy weapons to select from across their vehicles and units. The only unique gear the Thousand sons have are warpflamers/heavy warplamers, soulreaper cannons, prosperine kopeshes and whatever their special cyclone missile launchers on terminators are called, everything else is bog standard chaos marines kit (except for, arguably, inferno boltguns). Even then the terminator missile launchers aren't particularly unique themselves. I would love for 1kSons to get the same treatment DG did, and I hope WE get that same treatment too.

I didn't say that they "would", I said that they "should". And so should Thousand Sons, for that matter.

 blood reaper wrote:
Rubricane Havocs

Ackchyually you couldn't give MoT to Havocs.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

Lord of Skulls?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

Lord of Skulls?

Yeah, sure, I'd include it in the WE army list. But the KLOS is a LoW, they need a more "general use" daemon engine that you can include in a typical list without specifically building the list around it, which you generally have to do with LoWs.

Maybe a little baby Brass Scorpion?

John D Law wrote:
Me personally I’d like to see the return of the Chaos Cannon of Khorne or Chaos Cauldron of Blood. Or would those just be considered daemons now :(

I have a Cannon of Khorne and just count it as a Chaos Vindicator.

Heres a semi-related thought. If World Eaters are coming, what do we think their chaff unit is going to be (along the lines of Tzaangors and Poxwalkers)? Blood Pact or Khorngors? And if its Blood Pact do they come with Stalk Tanks?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Heres a semi-related thought. If World Eaters are coming, what do we think their chaff unit is going to be (along the lines of Tzaangors and Poxwalkers)? Blood Pact or Khorngors? And if its Blood Pact do they come with Stalk Tanks?

I'd like to see the beast men guard from blackstone fortress expanded and used.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Heres a semi-related thought. If World Eaters are coming, what do we think their chaff unit is going to be (along the lines of Tzaangors and Poxwalkers)? Blood Pact or Khorngors? And if its Blood Pact do they come with Stalk Tanks?

Like I said a page or so ago, make it the Beastmen. Tie it into an AoS Beastmen re-release, so the kits can cross between 40k and AoS ala Tzaangors.

That'd work well, and the aggression of Beastmen would fit with Khorne.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Maybe a little baby Brass Scorpion?

Brass lobsters ?

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Maybe a little baby Brass Scorpion?

Brass lobsters ?

Brass Crab, if GW wants to chase the crab fandom that developed this year

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Maybe a little baby Brass Scorpion?

Brass lobsters ?

Brass Crab, if GW wants to chase the crab fandom that developed this year

I support this 100%.

It'll just be nice to finally have the 3rd god-aligned legion out, and those old berzerkers pushed into the new realm of plastic.

The evercrabs, champions from 10,000 different species across the galaxy who all evolved into the ultimate warrior life form: the crab. Those who could not complete their final metamorphosis into crab are bound as spirits to crab daemon engines.

Id definitely be curious how they do WE, given they're all berserkers. Potentially a lot less power armour perhaps with the bulk of troops being the cult that has formed around some survivors of Khorne's chosen legion.

As for cult troops in regular chaos armies, wouldn't be surprised to see that's the Black Legion's special thing in their supplement. Or that it's something to identify leaks.

There will be more beastmen in the same vein as those from Blackstone fortress. This is my prediction.

That said, Blood Pact would be awesome…. But no Ghosts probably means no Blood Pact.

Could we perhaps first get Traitor Guard at all before we dream of a specific variety of it, please? Thanks.

You already got it - in blackstone fortress... and before that by forgeworld... and before that in Codex: Eye of Terror (or was it Codex: Armageddon? I forget).

Eye of Terror had the Lost and the Damned army list.

But come on, you know I'm talking about plastic kits that make a 40k army, not a handful of random models, nice as they are, in some side game.

 Geifer wrote:
Could we perhaps first get Traitor Guard at all before we dream of a specific variety of it, please? Thanks.

The reliable rumors say we are, so think we're good on that count.

Clockwork,

Any news on the Psychic powers and who gets them? Are we keeping both trees, is the Malefic tree options opening up to more characters?

 ph34r wrote:
The evercrabs, champions from 10,000 different species across the galaxy who all evolved into the ultimate warrior life form: the crab. Those who could not complete their final metamorphosis into crab are bound as spirits to crab daemon engines.

My dude... we could totally use this to overhaul the defiler!

Alright some big updates.

So my source corrected me on some things that i wrote here. Marks and daemonic gifts are one and the same. So this means marks need to be purchased and on top of providing a keyword it also provides you automatically with the daemonic gift.

So you want to make your chosen khorne. You pay some points and the chosen gain the keyword khorne & the +1s on the charge. This also means that the perks apply to all core and characters, including helbrutes.

Now for icons, here is a list of markable units who can have icons:
Legionaires
Chosen
Possessed
Bikers
Terminator

Here is a list of markable units that cannot get icons:
Raptors
Warptalons
Helbrute
Havocs

Also

Raptors (unit of 5-10)
Chainsword and pistol
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 plasma pistols
Champ
Can take plasma pistol
Power sword or fist

Bikers (unit of 3-9)
Replace pistol for chainsword
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
Icon
Champ
Plasma pistol
1 weapon from Melee weapon

Warptalons (unit of 5-10)

Lucius gains 3 additional attacks and +1 damage if fighting a unit with a 3+ WS

Cypher can only be hit on a 4+

Harkon can make a raptor unit reroll hit and wound

Abbadon is incredibly killy

Are the combi-weapons for the Bikers referring to the guns mounted on their bikes?

Thanks for the update clockworkchris9

Any chance you could ask about how Psychic powers work? Do we still have the two trees? Is Malefefic still locked to only the MoP?

If I'm understanding this right, Raptors can now get 3 plasma pistols and 2 plasma guns, while having 3A base and +1S from Khorne mark/gift?

So a unit of 5 is packing 7 plasma shots in 12", then charging for 4 power sword/fist, 8 astartes chainswords, and 6 "no profile" attacks at S5? Potentially with full re-rolls on hits and wounds from Haarken? that'll clear an objective!

My guess is it's going to be like the current codex 2 pistols or 2 special weapons rather than an "and".

Thanks for the update !

Does it mean that Lucius still has the same profile as before and he just has this new ability ?

Terminators keeping access to icons (while having none in the kit) while e.g. Raptors lose icons (also having none in the kit) is a little odd.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Terminators keeping access to icons (while having none in the kit) while e.g. Raptors lose icons (also having none in the kit) is a little odd.

Yeah, a bit odd. The Chosen kit has very teeny tiny icons in it, which is a nice touch. The regular Chaos Marine kit also only has the 2 generic icons, no real way to identify which god they're worshipping.

But then, 9th ed is full of rules that aren't represented on the model, so I think it'll be ok.

Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Alright some big updates.

Bikers (unit of 3-9)
Replace pistol for chainsword
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
Icon
Champ
Plasma pistol
1 weapon from Melee weapon

This is the part I'm most excited about. Not only can they take icons, but we are finally seeing some options for the Bikers. 2 special weapons, 2 combi weapons, and the champion can indeed take an alternate melee weapon. If this is all true, then my fears of them getting the Primaris Outrider treatment was for naught and all we need now is to see the rumored new models.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

If true, this is completely absurd, the previous champ had them as its only loadout (and the other kit got retired in what, the early 2000s or something?) and you've had the option to take one for the new kit, it doesn't interfere with GW's policy of only things in the box, and it's been kind of iconic as part of the raptor schtick for ages, including the raptor lord, raptor named character, I'm pretty sure the raptor champion in the NL series(?), and is the basis for them getting a specialized elite unit variant.

Like, there's no reason to do it other than completely arbitrary limits. It fits both the background and models and is hardly some sort of overpowered combo.

drbored wrote:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Alright some big updates.

Bikers (unit of 3-9)
Replace pistol for chainsword
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
Icon
Champ
Plasma pistol
1 weapon from Melee weapon

This is the part I'm most excited about. Not only can they take icons, but we are finally seeing some options for the Bikers. 2 special weapons, 2 combi weapons, and the champion can indeed take an alternate melee weapon. If this is all true, then my fears of them getting the Primaris Outrider treatment was for naught and all we need now is to see the rumored new models.

This would certainly require a new kit - has that come up yet?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

If true, this is completely absurd, the previous champ had them as its only loadout (and the other kit got retired in what, the early 2000s or something?) and you've had the option to take one for the new kit, it doesn't interfere with GW's policy of only things in the box, and it's been kind of iconic as part of the raptor schtick for ages, including the raptor lord, raptor named character, I'm pretty sure the raptor champion in the NL series(?), and is the basis for them getting a specialized elite unit variant.

Like, there's no reason to do it other than completely arbitrary limits. It fits both the background and models and is hardly some sort of overpowered combo.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. The kit includes 5 pairs of Lightning Claws, for a total of 10. I'm guessing this is a case of "incomplete information" coming from Clockworkchris's source. It would also be locking the 8th Legion's most iconic unit out of their most iconic weapon. Nah, can't be right. And locking Raptors out of Icons is equally confusing.

Exactly. The kit is filled with LCs to use on the Champ.

Does the Raptor hit have Icons?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

This would certainly require a new kit - has that come up yet?

Yup.

As part of the big leak list.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Exactly. The kit is filled with LCs to use on the Champ.

Does the Raptor hit have Icons?

No, but neither does the Terminator kit. Unless, they're counting something on the trophy racks?

They could be. Or a part from the kits that could easily be stuck on a Terminator or a backpack (but not a jump pack) that could act as an Icon.

Or maybe even something from the rumoured Malibu Stacy New Hat sprue that might comm in the KT box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They could be. Or a part from the kits that could easily be stuck on a Terminator or a backpack (but not a jump pack) that could act as an Icon.

Or maybe even something from the rumoured Malibu Stacy New Hat sprue that might comm in the KT box.

Eh, maybe. But, if something in one of the kits, or the "Malibu Stacy New Hat Sprue ( )" could fit Terminators, Chosen, and "Chaos Legionaries", wouldn't it fit Havocs as well, even if it didn't fit jump packs?

Edit: I hit "submit" accidentally before finishing my post.

I'll be mightily impressed if they somehow make the WB trait worse after almost 5 years of that abomination.

Not saying they can't it will just be an impressive feat.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eh, maybe. But, if something in one of the kits, or the "Malibu Stacy New Hat Sprue ( )" could fit Terminators, Chosen, and "Chaos Legionaries", wouldn't it fit Havocs as well, even if it didn't fit jump packs?

Havocs, yes, you're right. Honestly I wasn't thinking about them - all my focus was on Raptors due to them potentially losing Lightning Claws for no good fething reason. Like with the upcoming 'Nid book, I am far more concerned with what we're losing over what we're getting.

The whole Icon thing worries me. They fethed that up royally once before, and given everything we've heard this is sounding more 4th Edition-y every second.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eh, maybe. But, if something in one of the kits, or the "Malibu Stacy New Hat Sprue ( )" could fit Terminators, Chosen, and "Chaos Legionaries", wouldn't it fit Havocs as well, even if it didn't fit jump packs?

Havocs, yes, you're right. Honestly I wasn't thinking about them - all my focus was on Raptors due to them potentially losing Lightning Claws for no good fething reason. Like with the upcoming 'Nid book, I am far more concerned with what we're losing over what we're getting.

The whole Icon thing worries me. They fethed that up royally once before, and given everything we've heard this is sounding more 4th Edition-y every second.

Aye, and I don't like all of the potential customization and improvements for our units being tied into Marks and Icons, again. That also smacks of post 4th edition codex design. It's even more galling if one of those options won't be available for two of the 8th Legion's most iconic units. It's like they're saying "No, you can't follow the fluff and run your units without Marks without just being worse. But you STILL can't have all of the perks if you do, either. ". And on top of that Legion trait. Aargghh!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

If true, this is completely absurd, the previous champ had them as its only loadout (and the other kit got retired in what, the early 2000s or something?) and you've had the option to take one for the new kit, it doesn't interfere with GW's policy of only things in the box, and it's been kind of iconic as part of the raptor schtick for ages, including the raptor lord, raptor named character, I'm pretty sure the raptor champion in the NL series(?), and is the basis for them getting a specialized elite unit variant.

Like, there's no reason to do it other than completely arbitrary limits. It fits both the background and models and is hardly some sort of overpowered combo.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. The kit includes 5 pairs of Lightning Claws, for a total of 10. I'm guessing this is a case of "incomplete information" coming from Clockworkchris's source. It would also be locking the 8th Legion's most iconic unit out of their most iconic weapon. Nah, can't be right. And locking Raptors out of Icons is equally confusing.

But those lightning claws are supposed to be used to make Warp Talons. What you're describing strays treacherously close to, dare I say it, kitbashing. We'll brook none of that here! Good day to you sir!

The day when we call something "kitbashing" when all the parts are coming from the same kit is a sad day indeed.

I know that's not what you were doing, Doobie, but even so.

Havocs used to be able to take regular bolter guys to fill out their ranks (ablative wounds). Now, they're just squads of 5, with the champion and 4 heavy weapon carriers.

Now, I'd probably say "and that's why they don't have an icon bearer", but with icons being little backpack decorations, it makes less sense... That said, many Havoc backpacks have reloading arms, extra ammo, missile racks, etc that would get in the way of mounting an icon.

Also, it could be that the raptor champ can still take lightning claws. Remember, we're getting this stuff third-hand. The leaker takes it from their playtest booklet, types it up for clockwork to write it, who then gives it to us. The leaks we end up with don't look exactly like the way GW writes rules, and aren't formatted that way either (no offense to clockwork chris or the leaker).

So, little bits could be getting lost in translation. We'll see.

drbored wrote:
Now, I'd probably say "and that's why they don't have an icon bearer", but with icons being little backpack decorations, it makes less sense... That said, many Havoc backpacks have reloading arms, extra ammo, missile racks, etc that would get in the way of mounting an icon.

If it were a Champion upgrade, then it could fit on his backpack (I presume??? I've not built any of my Havoc Champs yet).

drbored wrote:
Also, it could be that the raptor champ can still take lightning claws. Remember, we're getting this stuff third-hand. The leaker takes it from their playtest booklet, types it up for clockwork to write it, who then gives it to us. The leaks we end up with don't look exactly like the way GW writes rules, and aren't formatted that way either (no offense to clockwork chris or the leaker).

So, little bits could be getting lost in translation. We'll see.

I don't think they will, but I hope you're right and I'm wrong. In fact, every instance where I'm wrong about these things a net positive for the player-base.

Raptor Champions losing the option to take lightning claws sounds as weird as "Legionaire" Champions and (apparently) Biker Champions being forced to take a plasma pistol as standard equipment. I think it's just information getting mixed up, or only half right, in the transfer of information from the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. The leaker is either accidentally or intentionally (possibly to hide their identity from gw) giving out partial information.

I mean doesn't every CSM Champion having plasma weaponry as standard equipment sound odd? Are all of the Legions Dark Angels all of the sudden now?

drbored wrote:
Havocs used to be able to take regular bolter guys to fill out their ranks (ablative wounds). Now, they're just squads of 5, with the champion and 4 heavy weapon carriers.

The new profile itself and mandatory heavy weapons are fine. The problem is the fix squad size like with Outriders and Suppressors.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Raptor Champions losing the option to take lightning claws sounds as weird as "Legionaire" Champions and (apparently) Biker Champions being forced to take a plasma pistol as standard equipment. I think it's just information getting mixed up, or only half right, in the transfer of information from the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. The leaker is either accidentally or intentionally (possibly to hide their identity from gw) giving out partial information.

Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

Especially given that the brain bug that is current Plasma Weaponry began because Plasma Weapons were meant to be rare, and the ones the Traitor Legions had didn't work properly, giving us the Mk.I Plasma Guns from 2nd Ed.

That somehow made it to 3rd Ed as "all plasma guns explode", all the way through to "plasma guns insta-gib people" and now potentially "CSMs always have them".

Look on the bright side: At least we never became this. Or this. Or this. Or this.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Raptor Champions losing the option to take lightning claws sounds as weird as "Legionaire" Champions and (apparently) Biker Champions being forced to take a plasma pistol as standard equipment. I think it's just information getting mixed up, or only half right, in the transfer of information from the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. The leaker is either accidentally or intentionally (possibly to hide their identity from gw) giving out partial information.

Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

Yes, that's a definite possibility.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

And there's the additional asterisk of "these rumours are supposedly coming from playtest rules". So even if they're real, they could change. Imagine how much different DE would be if Dark Lances had retained their original Dd6 that they had when playtested.....

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

And there's the additional asterisk of "these rumours are supposedly coming from playtest rules". So even if they're real, they could change. Imagine how much different DE would be if Dark Lances had retained their original Dd6 that they had when playtested.....

This. Even through all the stuff about accursed weapons and all that, it could end up being reverted depending on the feedback that GW gets from their playtesters.

Now, the playtesters are usually the competitive type, which is why we are where we are with the state of 40k and 9th edition, so whatever the end result is will likely be based on that sort of mentality...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

I mean, y'all are coming up with complicated reasons for why something this stupid would be included in the rumors but not actually be a thing in the actual release. I'm just pointing folks towards Occam's Razor.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

I mean, y'all are coming up with complicated reasons for why something this stupid would be included in the rumors but not actually be a thing in the actual release. I'm just pointing folks towards Occam's Razor.

It kinda comes across as someone walking into a McDonald's and being like "You know this place sells burgers, right?"

Yes. Yes we are fully aware all this could be fake. We are discussing it anyway because it's fun to speculate on the reasoning and potential future of this stuff.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

I mean, y'all are coming up with complicated reasons for why something this stupid would be included in the rumors but not actually be a thing in the actual release. I'm just pointing folks towards Occam's Razor.

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

That's Hanlon's Razor. Occam's Razor is "the simplest answer is usually correct."

And sure, you probably ought to have some buy in to talk about said rumors. It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

GW has a history of making decisions which have surprised much of the player base, which seem out of touch with players, arbitrary, removing options for a vast number of reasons that invalidate configurations (exploited imbalances or combinations like spamming certain things; many many wargear combos from back when they were actively promoting their line as customizable and favoring kitbashes; moving units to slots that make predictable army configurations invalid; eliminating entire factions and subfactions because they didn't feel like supporting them; making previously discrete options general or vice versa; making subfactions into factions or making factions into subfactions), often reacting to financial or legal factors, but just as often attending to logic of just making something distinct from something else; the entire legends category primarily consists of things which were legal (and most of which had either official models or had ones that took no great initiative to make from combined kits).

In short, it's hardly out of the question for GW to do something that seems nonsensical or arbitrary though might obey internal company logic at the cost of player collections.

Also, speaking for myself above, I carefully qualified my statement as an if-then hypothetical, and HBMC has been very clear about speculating as well.

It can amuse you all you want, but it takes no great contortion acts to see the possibility that GW might do something arbitrary and irritating. I would imagine they care about existing players' collections exactly to the degree that they don't want players' anger hurting their brand, because they're not making money off of things they've already sold; frankly, I would say this fits most gaming companies as well, GW is just bigger so has more flexibility.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

That's Hanlon's Razor. Occam's Razor is "the simplest answer is usually correct."

And sure, you probably ought to have some buy in to talk about said rumors. It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

In absence of anything else floating about for CSM, it's all we got until something contrary comes up. Might as well partake and have the conversation in absence of anything better to do.

We all know we could be being fed a load of crud, but might as well continue the debate like they're gospel for fun.

Yeah, I mean I think everyone here understands these are rumors.

At least from my perspective, the stuff so far seems pretty feasible. If it's fake, I'll at least applaud the effort being put in, because nearly everything so far I could see being pretty legitimate. As far as that is concerned, we should have a pretty good idea after the CSM side of the KT box is shown how legitimate some if it is.

Anyway,

Harkaan getting improved sure would be nice. I'm hoping he's like an Elite or something in the new book though, or doesn't take up a slot.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

That's Hanlon's Razor. Occam's Razor is "the simplest answer is usually correct."

And sure, you probably ought to have some buy in to talk about said rumors. It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

Oops ! My bad ! Thanks for the correction !

Occam's Razor doesn't apply here any more than Hanlon's would.

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

Discussing the rumours and their implications if true is "contorting" ourselves?

Would you rather we greet every rumour with "That's bull gak! Prove it!"?

 Sasori wrote:
Yeah, I mean I think everyone here understands these are rumors.

At least from my perspective, the stuff so far seems pretty feasible. If it's fake, I'll at least applaud the effort being put in, because nearly everything so far I could see being pretty legitimate. As far as that is concerned, we should have a pretty good idea after the CSM side of the KT box is shown how legitimate some if it is.

Anyway,

Harkaan getting improved sure would be nice. I'm hoping he's like an Elite or something in the new book though, or doesn't take up a slot.

At least make his Lightning Claw do more damage if they won't let him use his GODDAMN SPEAR IN MELEE SERIOUSLY

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Yeah, I mean I think everyone here understands these are rumors.

At least from my perspective, the stuff so far seems pretty feasible. If it's fake, I'll at least applaud the effort being put in, because nearly everything so far I could see being pretty legitimate. As far as that is concerned, we should have a pretty good idea after the CSM side of the KT box is shown how legitimate some if it is.

Anyway,

Harkaan getting improved sure would be nice. I'm hoping he's like an Elite or something in the new book though, or doesn't take up a slot.

At least make his Lightning Claw do more damage if they won't let him use his GODDAMN SPEAR IN MELEE SERIOUSLY

At least he makes for a great base for a Lord with jump pack

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

With a Reaper Chaincannon--finally!

The Balefire Acolyte is also fairly cool.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Looks like this confirms a bunch of the previous rumours posted.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

And I think there is our first rumour confirmation.

Cursed weapons ahoy!

I quite like the Kill Team. Not as spangly/busy as I imagined, but cool looking all the same.

Also kind of how I’d like to see more CSM squads. Less regimented, more individualistic. Small warbands in their own right.

Aaannnd now the horror sets in. I was really hoping that these rumours would be untrue.

At least the models look cool.

I'll be hard on GW for a lot of stuff, but the models are pretty consistently good.

Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Is that one legionnaire wearing a corrupted reiver helmet? Chaos Primaris confirmed or just battlefield salvage?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Is that one legionnaire wearing a corrupted reiver helmet? Chaos Primaris confirmed or just battlefield salvage?

I think it's just meant to be a skull-mask. Chaplains had them long before Reivers existed.

 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Is that one legionnaire wearing a corrupted reiver helmet? Chaos Primaris confirmed or just battlefield salvage?

I think it's just meant to be a skull-mask. Chaplains had them long before Reivers existed.

I agree on that point, but taside from mk7 helmets, there is also what looks like chaos primaris helmets in the mix too. But, could also be mk4 i suppose.

 Rinkydink wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Is that one legionnaire wearing a corrupted reiver helmet? Chaos Primaris confirmed or just battlefield salvage?

I think it's just meant to be a skull-mask. Chaplains had them long before Reivers existed.

I agree on that point, but taside from mk7 helmets, there is also what looks like chaos primaris helmets in the mix too. But, could also be mk4 i suppose.

Dark Vengeance Chosen had those too. As you say, they're just corrupted MK4.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

I can't believe how tone deaf that was. The people on WarComm seem to have zero insight into the disposition of the community.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

I can't believe how tone deaf that was. The people on WarComm seem to have zero insight into the disposition of the community.

lmao the chaos community is very serious business

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

I can't believe how tone deaf that was. The people on WarComm seem to have zero insight into the disposition of the community.

It's because they know they did it.

Umbros wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

I can't believe how tone deaf that was. The people on WarComm seem to have zero insight into the disposition of the community.

lmao the chaos community is very serious business

Yes, the classic "HURR DURR GUISE WHY ARE YOU MAD ABOUT TOY SOLDIERS", as if the fact that they are miniatures invalidates the fact that they cost hundreds/thousands and take hours to build and paint. Yes, why would anybody be annoyed with GW's crappy rules support of them indeed

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Umbros wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

I can't believe how tone deaf that was. The people on WarComm seem to have zero insight into the disposition of the community.

lmao the chaos community is very serious business

Yes, the classic "HURR DURR GUISE WHY ARE YOU MAD ABOUT TOY SOLDIERS", as if the fact that they are miniatures invalidates the fact that they cost hundreds/thousands and take hours to build and paint. Yes, why would anybody be annoyed with GW's crappy rules support of them indeed

Everytime people do this i think "Why are you on a dedicated 40k forum if you think it's a stupid thing to care about toys for children?"

so with the confirmation of some rumors like the double axe and the book for CSM units..

What other rumors are there about new units?

I think the axe + skull mask would be a good base for a not terrible looking lord executioner

Wonder if the sprue has other goodies we haven’t seen

zamerion wrote:
so with the confirmation of some rumors like the double axe and the book for CSM units..

What other rumors are there about new units?

New cultists, new cultist HQ, new mutants, new bikers... I keep updating the main post !

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Nothing in the article mentions 12 wounds. What are you talking about?

Big shot in the arm for these rumours. Not thrilled by an upgrade sprue for a troops choice that is less than 3 years old, though I really like the parts themselves.

 Rinkydink wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Is that one legionnaire wearing a corrupted reiver helmet? Chaos Primaris confirmed or just battlefield salvage?

I think it's just meant to be a skull-mask. Chaplains had them long before Reivers existed.

I agree on that point, but taside from mk7 helmets, there is also what looks like chaos primaris helmets in the mix too. But, could also be mk4 i suppose.

They're Mark IV helmets, not Primaris.

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Nothing in the article mentions 12 wounds. What are you talking about?

They said it on Facebook.

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Nothing in the article mentions 12 wounds. What are you talking about?

beast_gts wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Nothing in the article mentions 12 wounds. What are you talking about?

lol, that's clever. Good one.

I look forward to seeing the mess of rules that we'll need to equip a regular 40k 9e squad of Chaos Marines with some of these options.

That said, I think we're going to see some pretty interesting MSU builds of Chaos Legionaries. 5 man squad with a balefire tome for a cheap psychic unit. 5 man squad with a heavy chainaxe, aspiring champ with daemon blade, and throw in a few other melee upgrades for good measure. 5-man squad with a reaper chaincannon for some easy extra dakka.

It's really only when you get up to 10 models that things just don't make sense, since you end up with 7 models that just act as ablative wounds for a champion and two special weapons. We'll see how it goes. This reveal definitely lends a lot more credence to the rumors that we've been discussing (insert: I told you so to that one guy harping on people complaining about rumored rules)

Here I was thinking that the Nachmund KT box would contain the terrain they previewed not so long ago.

And here we have the 'Malibu Stacey's New Hat' sprue for the CSM kit. Chaincannon is nice, but I want two of that double-handed Chaineaxe.

The terrain in the box is pretty anaemic.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

Don't worry they'll whack the price up another £12.50 for the privilege.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

Don't worry they'll whack the price up another £12.50 for the privilege.

Depends if they do a "kill team" box and a "chaos marines" box without the extra sprue, side by side. Honestly having an extra sprue for a tenner you can choose to buy would be better.

I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

hard to say its cut content when the existing sprues are packed and theres no room for anything further on them. Its already a 3 frame kit, GW doesnt - to my recollection - do 4 frame kits for infantry units, and a big part of that has to do with the logistics that underly the production process. the additional frames that gw is releasing with kill team can only exist because GW is upcharging for them to cover the added costs and associated overhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

I would guess it uses some sort of unnecessarily complex staggered alternating feed mechanism to chamber rounds from each belt on a separate basis, or its set up to pull the second belt in after the first depletes

Well, I hope we'll be able to buy that upgrade sprue on it's own at some point. I don't really want to try to source it from these KT boxes.

 Sasori wrote:
Well, I hope we'll be able to buy that upgrade sprue on it's own at some point.

If they did sell it it'd cost 1/3rd the price of a box of CSMs sadly. But they won't sell it. They'll want you to buy the even more expensive KT box.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

Magic.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

Have you seen assault cannons!! 40k guns don’t have to make sense. Just look cool.

Gert wrote:Aaannnd now the horror sets in. I was really hoping that these rumours would be untrue.

Same. But if this is confirmed, then it's likely so is the rest. Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics out of the codex, Greater Possessed and Mutilators just gone, Accursed Weapons and jigsaw options for Terminators. And that godawful, unbalanced, Night Lords Legion trait. The only sliver of hope I can see is that these leaks are from playtest rules, so they could be different in the actual codex. But it's a very thin sliver.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Here I was thinking that the Nachmund KT box would contain the terrain they previewed not so long ago.

And here we have the 'Malibu Stacey's New Hat' sprue for the CSM kit. Chaincannon is nice, but I want two of that double-handed Chaineaxe.

The terrain in the box is pretty anaemic.

I'll take the chaincannon and the flayed skin pauldron, they can keep the rest.

Dudeface wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

And I think there is our first rumour confirmation.

Cursed weapons ahoy!

I wouldn't read terribly far into it - Orks got a sniper rifle after all.

At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn.

So oddly enough, I actually think having CSM troops at 60 points a unit is a benefit for us now. Cheap and not being too much of a point tax is how I see the value of good obsec troops now. With the game being so lethal as it is now. 1W, 2W on a model doesn't matter much really.

I honestly am not that optimistic about the way the rumors are going with the new codex. No amount of new rules are going to make our basic CSM troops good at killing stuff. They are just basic troops. Just keep them cheap is what I want now.

Its the fast attack units and elite units that will matter. Why not heavy support? Well, short of daemon engine lists, I have come to the realisation that no amount of buffing in our heavy support will make them S tier. The key reason being we are not the shootist faction. We have never been known to be. GW simply will not buff our heavy support units to the shooting level of Tau. And while Daemon Engines are fluffy, I want more because our codex is called codex CSM, it is not called codex daemon engines.

So it will be the FA and Elite choices where we will get a lot of our power from in the new codex. But if its true we are losing all the cult marines, then, we basically just have our base terminators, chosen, warp talons, raptors and bikes. (Are possessed in or out? I have no idea).

So yeah... I really have no idea how they are going to go with this new codex. And I kind of worry.

Its kind of ironic that with Custodes, GW was willing to give that army literally everything, with zero weakness! Its fast (cos jet bikes), super tanky, shoots hard (cos salvo), hits hard and even can have 4++ to mortal wounds. How can GW allow an army that can literally do everything so well?

Like numerous armies have T3 (fragile), some are slow (DG). Some are bad in melee (Tsons, IG and Tau). What did Custodes give up? seriously. They literally have zero downside...

Numbers. It's just painful as we're in the elites swing of the edition pendulum

Eldenfirefly wrote:
At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn...

Noooo !! Don't do it ! Don't lose hope. Not so close our fabled 2nd wound !

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...They literally have zero downside...

They all look the same. That's their downside

We have yet to see how GW is going to treat the Kill Team extra sprues.

The only kits that have had extra sprues put out have been the Cadian Shock Troops (which was before kill team), the Pathfinders (which aren't out on their own yet) and the Chaos Marines (which aren't out at all yet).

Could be they treat these boxes like the Cadian Shock Troop box which replaces the old one. Could be they sell some of them side-by-side, label one Kill Team Legionaries (like how the Krieg and Kommando boxes are clearly labeled for Kill Team) and the other the regular Chaos Marines.

We'll see what happens. I have a feeling that, like the Sister Novitiates, it'll be a half-sprue of extra weapons/options, so it likely won't be a drastic increase in price, because GW tends to keep their base troop units relatively inexpensive since you need a lot of them, but then makes more elite units and HQ's much more expensive, but I could be wrong.

beast_gts wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Nothing in the article mentions 12 wounds. What are you talking about?

Ah, I don't have FB and go directly to the WarCom site.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn.

So oddly enough, I actually think having CSM troops at 60 points a unit is a benefit for us now. Cheap and not being too much of a point tax is how I see the value of good obsec troops now. With the game being so lethal as it is now. 1W, 2W on a model doesn't matter much really.

I honestly am not that optimistic about the way the rumors are going with the new codex. No amount of new rules are going to make our basic CSM troops good at killing stuff. They are just basic troops. Just keep them cheap is what I want now.

Its the fast attack units and elite units that will matter. Why not heavy support? Well, short of daemon engine lists, I have come to the realisation that no amount of buffing in our heavy support will make them S tier. The key reason being we are not the shootist faction. We have never been known to be. GW simply will not buff our heavy support units to the shooting level of Tau. And while Daemon Engines are fluffy, I want more because our codex is called codex CSM, it is not called codex daemon engines.

So it will be the FA and Elite choices where we will get a lot of our power from in the new codex. But if its true we are losing all the cult marines, then, we basically just have our base terminators, chosen, warp talons, raptors and bikes. (Are possessed in or out? I have no idea).

So yeah... I really have no idea how they are going to go with this new codex. And I kind of worry.

Its kind of ironic that with Custodes, GW was willing to give that army literally everything, with zero weakness! Its fast (cos jet bikes), super tanky, shoots hard (cos salvo), hits hard and even can have 4++ to mortal wounds. How can GW allow an army that can literally do everything so well?

Like numerous armies have T3 (fragile), some are slow (DG). Some are bad in melee (Tsons, IG and Tau). What did Custodes give up? seriously. They literally have zero downside...

The problem is that Chaos Marines are basically just Space Marines with a different coat of paint, curved blades and sprinkled tails and tongues. They're supposed to all be 10,000 year old veterans who have bathed in the Warp, learned from deamons and from mighty warp entities. They're supposed to be blessed with powers, dark gifts and abilities that make even the abilities of normal astartes jump up to 11. Everything has been enhanced beyond what even the emperor's genetic gifts could bestow. Strength, Endurance, Speed.

But they aren't portrayed like that. Their squads should be smaller, but way more killy and tough when compared to their cousins. They should be able to cary a lot of flexibility with their tactics because they have the training of Astartes, but also the blessings of the Dark Gods.

Sort of the way I see it is something like this.

Legionaries should be capped at 5 models per unit. Something like this for a statline: M: 6 WS: 3+ BS: 3+ S: 5 T: 5 W: 3 A: 2 Ld: 9 Sv: 3+
I think having an inbuilt 5+ or 6+ FNP to illustrate that they are protected not only by their armor, but the warp energy that they've gained is a must. Some testing could be done to see if either 5 or 6 is too little or too much, adjustments can then be made. They should be able to take lots of different weapons, having very strange but cobbled together loadouts. Instead of a "Boltgun" as a weapon, it probably needs to be something like "Warp-fire Boltgun" and either remain at S4, but gain a point of AP or move up both in AP and S as it's a weapon that is fueled by warp energy. Five Legionaries should easily equal 20 regular Astartes.

Terminators might come in three models per unit. Their statline could be: M: 5 WS: 2+ BS: 2+ S: 6 T: 7 W: 5 A: 4 Ld: 9 Sv: 2+
As the Legionaries, test the 5-6+++ Idea, but make sure they keep their classic 5++, consider testing it at a 4++.

There are many other types of rules that could be considered. Marking a unit of Legionaries with the mark of Khorne could enhance their WS: to a 2+ and could grant the whole unit an additional attack. A mark of Nurgle on the Terminators could increase their FNP to a 4+++ or grant T8, making them very hard to kill without access to Plasma or Melta strength weapons. The Mark of Slaneesh on either unit could add +1 Movement and grant +1 advance and +1 Charge as well. I much prefer the idea of marks DOING something other than just opening up stratagems.

This is really rough, but I think you can see what I mean. They need to feel like their own unique faction, rather than just Copy-Paste Astartes with Horns and Tentacles. Until we get GW on this line of thinking, the army is going to be treated as the second rate cousin that it has been for many editions now.

And that leads me to this statement.

Custodes are, what CSM should be. Whenever I see Custodes being played I can't help but think this is how the CSM should play. Not cookie-cutter-copy-paste Astartes. But as absolute U N I T S. Terrifying in battle, towering over even Primaris, brimming with eldritch energies and empowered through dark prayers, foul magics and "gifts" of the Dark Gods they now Serve.