Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Alright some big updates.

Bikers (unit of 3-9)
Replace pistol for chainsword
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
Icon
Champ
Plasma pistol
1 weapon from Melee weapon

This is the part I'm most excited about. Not only can they take icons, but we are finally seeing some options for the Bikers. 2 special weapons, 2 combi weapons, and the champion can indeed take an alternate melee weapon. If this is all true, then my fears of them getting the Primaris Outrider treatment was for naught and all we need now is to see the rumored new models.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

If true, this is completely absurd, the previous champ had them as its only loadout (and the other kit got retired in what, the early 2000s or something?) and you've had the option to take one for the new kit, it doesn't interfere with GW's policy of only things in the box, and it's been kind of iconic as part of the raptor schtick for ages, including the raptor lord, raptor named character, I'm pretty sure the raptor champion in the NL series(?), and is the basis for them getting a specialized elite unit variant.

Like, there's no reason to do it other than completely arbitrary limits. It fits both the background and models and is hardly some sort of overpowered combo.

drbored wrote:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Alright some big updates.

Bikers (unit of 3-9)
Replace pistol for chainsword
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
Icon
Champ
Plasma pistol
1 weapon from Melee weapon

This is the part I'm most excited about. Not only can they take icons, but we are finally seeing some options for the Bikers. 2 special weapons, 2 combi weapons, and the champion can indeed take an alternate melee weapon. If this is all true, then my fears of them getting the Primaris Outrider treatment was for naught and all we need now is to see the rumored new models.

This would certainly require a new kit - has that come up yet?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

If true, this is completely absurd, the previous champ had them as its only loadout (and the other kit got retired in what, the early 2000s or something?) and you've had the option to take one for the new kit, it doesn't interfere with GW's policy of only things in the box, and it's been kind of iconic as part of the raptor schtick for ages, including the raptor lord, raptor named character, I'm pretty sure the raptor champion in the NL series(?), and is the basis for them getting a specialized elite unit variant.

Like, there's no reason to do it other than completely arbitrary limits. It fits both the background and models and is hardly some sort of overpowered combo.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. The kit includes 5 pairs of Lightning Claws, for a total of 10. I'm guessing this is a case of "incomplete information" coming from Clockworkchris's source. It would also be locking the 8th Legion's most iconic unit out of their most iconic weapon. Nah, can't be right. And locking Raptors out of Icons is equally confusing.

Exactly. The kit is filled with LCs to use on the Champ.

Does the Raptor hit have Icons?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

This would certainly require a new kit - has that come up yet?

Yup.

As part of the big leak list.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Exactly. The kit is filled with LCs to use on the Champ.

Does the Raptor hit have Icons?

No, but neither does the Terminator kit. Unless, they're counting something on the trophy racks?

They could be. Or a part from the kits that could easily be stuck on a Terminator or a backpack (but not a jump pack) that could act as an Icon.

Or maybe even something from the rumoured Malibu Stacy New Hat sprue that might comm in the KT box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They could be. Or a part from the kits that could easily be stuck on a Terminator or a backpack (but not a jump pack) that could act as an Icon.

Or maybe even something from the rumoured Malibu Stacy New Hat sprue that might comm in the KT box.

Eh, maybe. But, if something in one of the kits, or the "Malibu Stacy New Hat Sprue ( )" could fit Terminators, Chosen, and "Chaos Legionaries", wouldn't it fit Havocs as well, even if it didn't fit jump packs?

Edit: I hit "submit" accidentally before finishing my post.

I'll be mightily impressed if they somehow make the WB trait worse after almost 5 years of that abomination.

Not saying they can't it will just be an impressive feat.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eh, maybe. But, if something in one of the kits, or the "Malibu Stacy New Hat Sprue ( )" could fit Terminators, Chosen, and "Chaos Legionaries", wouldn't it fit Havocs as well, even if it didn't fit jump packs?

Havocs, yes, you're right. Honestly I wasn't thinking about them - all my focus was on Raptors due to them potentially losing Lightning Claws for no good fething reason. Like with the upcoming 'Nid book, I am far more concerned with what we're losing over what we're getting.

The whole Icon thing worries me. They fethed that up royally once before, and given everything we've heard this is sounding more 4th Edition-y every second.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eh, maybe. But, if something in one of the kits, or the "Malibu Stacy New Hat Sprue ( )" could fit Terminators, Chosen, and "Chaos Legionaries", wouldn't it fit Havocs as well, even if it didn't fit jump packs?

Havocs, yes, you're right. Honestly I wasn't thinking about them - all my focus was on Raptors due to them potentially losing Lightning Claws for no good fething reason. Like with the upcoming 'Nid book, I am far more concerned with what we're losing over what we're getting.

The whole Icon thing worries me. They fethed that up royally once before, and given everything we've heard this is sounding more 4th Edition-y every second.

Aye, and I don't like all of the potential customization and improvements for our units being tied into Marks and Icons, again. That also smacks of post 4th edition codex design. It's even more galling if one of those options won't be available for two of the 8th Legion's most iconic units. It's like they're saying "No, you can't follow the fluff and run your units without Marks without just being worse. But you STILL can't have all of the perks if you do, either. ". And on top of that Legion trait. Aargghh!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Forget that: No Raptor Champ with Lightning Claws???

One Raptor Champion may be used in your Warp Talon squad

If true, this is completely absurd, the previous champ had them as its only loadout (and the other kit got retired in what, the early 2000s or something?) and you've had the option to take one for the new kit, it doesn't interfere with GW's policy of only things in the box, and it's been kind of iconic as part of the raptor schtick for ages, including the raptor lord, raptor named character, I'm pretty sure the raptor champion in the NL series(?), and is the basis for them getting a specialized elite unit variant.

Like, there's no reason to do it other than completely arbitrary limits. It fits both the background and models and is hardly some sort of overpowered combo.

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. The kit includes 5 pairs of Lightning Claws, for a total of 10. I'm guessing this is a case of "incomplete information" coming from Clockworkchris's source. It would also be locking the 8th Legion's most iconic unit out of their most iconic weapon. Nah, can't be right. And locking Raptors out of Icons is equally confusing.

But those lightning claws are supposed to be used to make Warp Talons. What you're describing strays treacherously close to, dare I say it, kitbashing. We'll brook none of that here! Good day to you sir!

The day when we call something "kitbashing" when all the parts are coming from the same kit is a sad day indeed.

I know that's not what you were doing, Doobie, but even so.

Havocs used to be able to take regular bolter guys to fill out their ranks (ablative wounds). Now, they're just squads of 5, with the champion and 4 heavy weapon carriers.

Now, I'd probably say "and that's why they don't have an icon bearer", but with icons being little backpack decorations, it makes less sense... That said, many Havoc backpacks have reloading arms, extra ammo, missile racks, etc that would get in the way of mounting an icon.

Also, it could be that the raptor champ can still take lightning claws. Remember, we're getting this stuff third-hand. The leaker takes it from their playtest booklet, types it up for clockwork to write it, who then gives it to us. The leaks we end up with don't look exactly like the way GW writes rules, and aren't formatted that way either (no offense to clockwork chris or the leaker).

So, little bits could be getting lost in translation. We'll see.

drbored wrote:
Now, I'd probably say "and that's why they don't have an icon bearer", but with icons being little backpack decorations, it makes less sense... That said, many Havoc backpacks have reloading arms, extra ammo, missile racks, etc that would get in the way of mounting an icon.

If it were a Champion upgrade, then it could fit on his backpack (I presume??? I've not built any of my Havoc Champs yet).

drbored wrote:
Also, it could be that the raptor champ can still take lightning claws. Remember, we're getting this stuff third-hand. The leaker takes it from their playtest booklet, types it up for clockwork to write it, who then gives it to us. The leaks we end up with don't look exactly like the way GW writes rules, and aren't formatted that way either (no offense to clockwork chris or the leaker).

So, little bits could be getting lost in translation. We'll see.

I don't think they will, but I hope you're right and I'm wrong. In fact, every instance where I'm wrong about these things a net positive for the player-base.

Raptor Champions losing the option to take lightning claws sounds as weird as "Legionaire" Champions and (apparently) Biker Champions being forced to take a plasma pistol as standard equipment. I think it's just information getting mixed up, or only half right, in the transfer of information from the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. The leaker is either accidentally or intentionally (possibly to hide their identity from gw) giving out partial information.

I mean doesn't every CSM Champion having plasma weaponry as standard equipment sound odd? Are all of the Legions Dark Angels all of the sudden now?

drbored wrote:
Havocs used to be able to take regular bolter guys to fill out their ranks (ablative wounds). Now, they're just squads of 5, with the champion and 4 heavy weapon carriers.

The new profile itself and mandatory heavy weapons are fine. The problem is the fix squad size like with Outriders and Suppressors.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Raptor Champions losing the option to take lightning claws sounds as weird as "Legionaire" Champions and (apparently) Biker Champions being forced to take a plasma pistol as standard equipment. I think it's just information getting mixed up, or only half right, in the transfer of information from the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. The leaker is either accidentally or intentionally (possibly to hide their identity from gw) giving out partial information.

Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

Especially given that the brain bug that is current Plasma Weaponry began because Plasma Weapons were meant to be rare, and the ones the Traitor Legions had didn't work properly, giving us the Mk.I Plasma Guns from 2nd Ed.

That somehow made it to 3rd Ed as "all plasma guns explode", all the way through to "plasma guns insta-gib people" and now potentially "CSMs always have them".

Look on the bright side: At least we never became this. Or this. Or this. Or this.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Raptor Champions losing the option to take lightning claws sounds as weird as "Legionaire" Champions and (apparently) Biker Champions being forced to take a plasma pistol as standard equipment. I think it's just information getting mixed up, or only half right, in the transfer of information from the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. The leaker is either accidentally or intentionally (possibly to hide their identity from gw) giving out partial information.

Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

Yes, that's a definite possibility.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

And there's the additional asterisk of "these rumours are supposedly coming from playtest rules". So even if they're real, they could change. Imagine how much different DE would be if Dark Lances had retained their original Dd6 that they had when playtested.....

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

And there's the additional asterisk of "these rumours are supposedly coming from playtest rules". So even if they're real, they could change. Imagine how much different DE would be if Dark Lances had retained their original Dd6 that they had when playtested.....

This. Even through all the stuff about accursed weapons and all that, it could end up being reverted depending on the feedback that GW gets from their playtesters.

Now, the playtesters are usually the competitive type, which is why we are where we are with the state of 40k and 9th edition, so whatever the end result is will likely be based on that sort of mentality...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

I mean, y'all are coming up with complicated reasons for why something this stupid would be included in the rumors but not actually be a thing in the actual release. I'm just pointing folks towards Occam's Razor.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

I mean, y'all are coming up with complicated reasons for why something this stupid would be included in the rumors but not actually be a thing in the actual release. I'm just pointing folks towards Occam's Razor.

It kinda comes across as someone walking into a McDonald's and being like "You know this place sells burgers, right?"

Yes. Yes we are fully aware all this could be fake. We are discussing it anyway because it's fun to speculate on the reasoning and potential future of this stuff.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Or, hear me out, it's just fake.

No gak Sherlock. Everything in this thread has a giant asterisk next to it with "Maybe not true/partially true". That applies to pretty much all rumours.

I mean, y'all are coming up with complicated reasons for why something this stupid would be included in the rumors but not actually be a thing in the actual release. I'm just pointing folks towards Occam's Razor.

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

That's Hanlon's Razor. Occam's Razor is "the simplest answer is usually correct."

And sure, you probably ought to have some buy in to talk about said rumors. It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

 Laughing Man wrote:
It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

GW has a history of making decisions which have surprised much of the player base, which seem out of touch with players, arbitrary, removing options for a vast number of reasons that invalidate configurations (exploited imbalances or combinations like spamming certain things; many many wargear combos from back when they were actively promoting their line as customizable and favoring kitbashes; moving units to slots that make predictable army configurations invalid; eliminating entire factions and subfactions because they didn't feel like supporting them; making previously discrete options general or vice versa; making subfactions into factions or making factions into subfactions), often reacting to financial or legal factors, but just as often attending to logic of just making something distinct from something else; the entire legends category primarily consists of things which were legal (and most of which had either official models or had ones that took no great initiative to make from combined kits).

In short, it's hardly out of the question for GW to do something that seems nonsensical or arbitrary though might obey internal company logic at the cost of player collections.

Also, speaking for myself above, I carefully qualified my statement as an if-then hypothetical, and HBMC has been very clear about speculating as well.

It can amuse you all you want, but it takes no great contortion acts to see the possibility that GW might do something arbitrary and irritating. I would imagine they care about existing players' collections exactly to the degree that they don't want players' anger hurting their brand, because they're not making money off of things they've already sold; frankly, I would say this fits most gaming companies as well, GW is just bigger so has more flexibility.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Well, you kind of have accept the premise to participate in the conversation.

Also, I don't think Occam's razor (do not attribute an action maliciousness if incompetence is an option) is applicable here.

That's Hanlon's Razor. Occam's Razor is "the simplest answer is usually correct."

And sure, you probably ought to have some buy in to talk about said rumors. It's still funny watching how far people will contort themselves to continue to treat said rumors credulously.

In absence of anything else floating about for CSM, it's all we got until something contrary comes up. Might as well partake and have the conversation in absence of anything better to do.

We all know we could be being fed a load of crud, but might as well continue the debate like they're gospel for fun.