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 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

See I never really liked that Tsons, a Legion that had every single Marine turned into dust-filled magic-powered automatons, could have units like Raptors or Chosen. Why would they have Chosen when Rubrics exist? How could they have the fast unit of Raptors when the Legion's premier unit was slow-moving? I do think there should have been a Havoc variant of the Rubrics and at least some form of Daemon Engine or special magic weapon but a lot of things just didn't make sense for me. I do think Tsons got the short end of the stick when it came to unique units.

To be honest I lost faith in GW Legion design when we went from 7th to 8th ed and the 8th ed DG Codex.

Traitor Legions literally gave us Death Guard Havocs - after they appeared in the artwork since 3rd edition 40k and that lasted all of 5-6 months. And then they took it away.

8th ed then took Power Fists from DG Terminators as well...something which had been around since 2nd ed 40k! Hells, even our specialist Terminator type in 30k has Power Fists!

Scarab Occult Terminators weren't that terrible in comparison simply because they remembered that the base load out of a Chaos Terminator was power weapon/combi-bolter and so the Scarab Occult maintain that...

But yeah, some of their design decisions are off and utterly bizarre at times.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

 clockworkchris9 wrote:

Cypher
In the codex

lol...this is my favorite part of the leaks...

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

No, I get it. Just generic musings on how the Tsons were botched so badly despite having some good potential.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

No, I get it. Just generic musings on how the Tsons were botched so badly despite having some good potential.

Tsons were botched?

No Cult troops in CSM makes me pretty sad. I really enjoyed the old LoC, Rubrics, Flamers vibe back in the day, but I am looking forward to the Chosen.

If Rubrics were in this book I was tempted to use them in CSM given the icons and gifts so perhaps not a terrible idea to separate them.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

To be honest I lost faith in GW Legion design when we went from 7th to 8th ed and the 8th ed DG Codex.

Traitor Legions literally gave us Death Guard Havocs - after they appeared in the artwork since 3rd edition 40k and that lasted all of 5-6 months. And then they took it away.

8th ed then took Power Fists from DG Terminators as well...something which had been around since 2nd ed 40k! Hells, even our specialist Terminator type in 30k has Power Fists!

Scarab Occult Terminators weren't that terrible in comparison simply because they remembered that the base load out of a Chaos Terminator was power weapon/combi-bolter and so the Scarab Occult maintain that...

But yeah, some of their design decisions are off and utterly bizarre at times.

Yes, people didn't get to keep everything 100% the same as before. But that hardly takes away from the fact that the Tsons got 6 kits to the DG's 20 odd individual kits (including the Starter Set and ETB boxes) and that the DG range made much better use of Nurgle versions of regular CSM and SM units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tsons were botched?

No Cult troops in CSM makes me pretty sad. I really enjoyed the old LoC, Rubrics, Flamers vibe back in the day, but I am looking forward to the Chosen.

If Rubrics were in this book I was tempted to use them in CSM given the icons and gifts so perhaps not a terrible idea to separate them.

Comparatively speaking IMO. Tsons got a small release for 7th then in 8th got 4 AoS units ported to the Codex. It was just lazy and a disappointment after seeing how good the DG release was.

 Gert wrote:
Comparatively speaking IMO. Tsons got a small release for 7th then in 8th got 4 AoS units ported to the Codex. It was just lazy and a disappointment after seeing how good the DG release was.

Ah, I get you. Thousand Sons are a little different mechanically so I'm not super concerned about that dynamic since the new book pushes the psychic angle really well. Maybe we'll see some other Rubric variants in the future.

It's something that I would be concerned about for potential WE and EC releases. Would we see something like Tsons where there are only 10 unique units and half of them are variants of the same base unit (sorcerer variants) or would we see a more expansive release like DG where more aspects of each Legion/God are seen (like with the Plague Surgeon or Tallyman).

Personally I think it's kind of amazing just how many releases Death Guard got, yet despite that they still managed to invalidate every squad in my army.

 Gert wrote:
It's something that I would be concerned about for potential WE and EC releases. Would we see something like Tsons where there are only 10 unique units and half of them are variants of the same base unit (sorcerer variants) or would we see a more expansive release like DG where more aspects of each Legion/God are seen (like with the Plague Surgeon or Tallyman).

Lore wise there's a little more freedom there. I don't expect World Eaters to be particularly innovative character wise though being they're all nuts.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Really? I recall that they had a lot going for them.

Wouldn't a WE army look pretty much like the box set they offered a little while ago (36 Berzerkers and an HQ)?

Not if GW follows the design cues from DG. We'll see Khornate versions of at least Chaos Lords, Cultists, and Terminators, with other possible units in the form of Champion variants, Dark Apostle equivalents, and a Daemon Engine or two. What would be really nice is a unit of Bloodcrusher Cavalry.

 Gert wrote:
Not if GW follows the design cues from DG. We'll see Khornate versions of at least Chaos Lords, Cultists, and Terminators, with other possible units in the form of Champion variants, Dark Apostle equivalents, and a Daemon Engine or two. What would be really nice is a unit of Bloodcrusher Cavalry.

Would be weird if they didn't get the Master of Executions, too, considering they're supposed to be Khorne followers.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Would be weird if they didn't get the Master of Executions, too, considering they're supposed to be Khorne followers.

I file that under Champion variants. Stuff that you'd see in a Legion or Chapter command squad basically e.g. Apothecaries, Standard Bearers.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Would be weird if they didn't get the Master of Executions, too, considering they're supposed to be Khorne followers.

But he's not a World Eater Master of Executions, so that could cause some hang-ups.

 Gert wrote:
Not if GW follows the design cues from DG. We'll see Khornate versions of at least Chaos Lords, Cultists, and Terminators, with other possible units in the form of Champion variants, Dark Apostle equivalents, and a Daemon Engine or two. What would be really nice is a unit of Bloodcrusher Cavalry.

It all depends if WE is a supplement or a stand alone. I can't see them getting many kits if they're just a supplement and things like cult terminators will just be a data sheet...maybe an upgrade sprue.

Why would it be a supplement?

I mean, all the various Marine Chapters are in the Marine book. WE have been removed from the Chaos book. They can hardly supplement something they're not part of.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It all depends if WE is a supplement or a stand alone. I can't see them getting many kits if they're just a supplement and things like cult terminators will just be a data sheet...maybe an upgrade sprue.

Just going off of what the general plan seems to be i.e. a 40k version of AoS with the God factions as their own Codexes, I would be surprised to see it as a Supplement outside of inclusion in a campaign book like Cadians or Leviathan. And they aren't "proper" supplements like the SM ones or Traitor Legions was.

I think the issue with DG, and to some extent TS, is that they weren't stand alone armies for the longest time. They were grouped together in the CSM Codex and so they'd all have access to the same units. The DG terminators you'd build would come from the standard CSM terminator kit (with maybe FW torsos if you were feeling generous). Then when they finally got new units for their separate armies, they had to be completely new kits. Upgrade sprues wouldn't have been enough to match the rest of the army, so the terminators, etc, got redesigned.

I am fine with Tsons actually. Love that they play rather differently from other armies. Rubrics and scarabs are finally the mainstays of the army, as they should be.

DG also has their own unique style which I like. Just sad that their defining trait Digustingly resilient for -1 dmg is now given to so many other faction units.

I am still not sure what GW sees as "defining" for CSM. We will see. Removing WE from the codex takes away even more flavor from the codex. So, wonder just how the CSM armies playstyle will be like. Shooty? (We will never outshoot the shooty armies like Tau, admech). Fighty? (WE are out of the codex, they will reserve the most fighty styles for that codex). Tanky? That's DG's style. Psychic heavy? That's Tsons style. So balanced ? Jack of all traits, master of none? That's the most generic and boring, honestly. Oh well, we will see.

Has any other faction had to deal with big swathes of their army being made out of date, in recent editions? Like, even as far back as 4th edition.

Chaos Marines just keep getting the shaft. Instead of giving us models, they give us restrictions that invalidate more and more of our armies, taking away options and leaving us with less.

Aside from maybe Astra Militarum where there's straight up whole regiments that you just can't purchase any more, has any other faction had to deal with this level of invalidating restrictions? The only other thing I can think of is Space Wolves blood claws that could no longer take power fists and chainswords, but that change happened ages ago.

CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon

So, is the 1 special + 1 heavy for a 5 man squad, or 10? Can the Aspiring Champion still take a combi-weapon? And is the daemon blade and plasma pistol standard, or optional? Not impressed with the "new stuff". "Malibu Stacie's new hat", as H.B.M.C puts it.

Crimson wrote:So normal the CSM (legionaries) now have a profile of a primaris veteran? (Three attacks.) I don't oppose this, but it is a tad strange after years of GW insisting that normal CSM are no better than tacticals.

We're probably losing Hateful Assault, so same attacks standard as "normal" primaris get when charging/charged/HI, less than a "veteran" (Hah!) primaris when doing the same. So sort of in between.

Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

And that's another thing: what about Renegades? Are you now suddenly a "Legionaire" as soon as you turn against the Corpse God? Or are Renegades getting a separate (and probably worse. Remember "no VOTLW"?) datasheet?

Pretty sure VotLW is a strat now anyway but it's a weird name, yes. Especially when Rubric Marines and Plague Marines are a thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would it be a supplement?

I mean, all the various Marine Chapters are in the Marine book. WE have been removed from the Chaos book. They can hardly supplement something they're not part of.

I guess it depends how many kits they could put on it. Maybe if it's like a late year release they could fit it in? I dunno. Just seems like a lot of stuff.

 Gert wrote:
Pretty sure VotLW is a strat now anyway but it's a weird name, yes. Especially when Rubric Marines and Plague Marines are a thing.

Yes, a strat that Renegades couldn't use. That's my point. Are they going to lock them out of it, and other "Legionaire" stuff, again?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I guess it depends how many kits they could put on it. Maybe if it's like a late year release they could fit it in? I dunno. Just seems like a lot of stuff.

Angron
2 Characters*
[Fancy Unit]**
Berzerker Terminators
New Berzerkers
[Chaff Unit]***
Slaughterbrute****

*"Skull Lord" and some sort of "Khorne Chaplain"
**Bikes, or guys riding Juggers, or whatever. Roughly the equivalent to the Exalted Sorcerer/Deathshroud box
***Make it Beastmen. Tie it into an AoS Beastmen re-release, so the kits can cross between 40k and AoS ala Tzaangors
****Lets 40k players use the other half of that box

So 1 big ticket item, three regular boxes, 2 clampacks, and then 1-2 potentially repurposed/duel purpose kits. They keep the use of the Daemon Prince, the Executioner guy, Terminator Lords, Helbrutes, Possessed and all the vehicles/current Daemon Engines.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And that's another thing: what about Renegades?

We all float Legionaire down here!