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 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

Don't worry they'll whack the price up another £12.50 for the privilege.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

Don't worry they'll whack the price up another £12.50 for the privilege.

Depends if they do a "kill team" box and a "chaos marines" box without the extra sprue, side by side. Honestly having an extra sprue for a tenner you can choose to buy would be better.

I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

Voss wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

Crap. This is just the current kit with a 'cut content' sprue, isn't it?
A few heads, bits and bobs, and stray weapons, maybe even this missing bolters, pistols and chainswords.

hard to say its cut content when the existing sprues are packed and theres no room for anything further on them. Its already a 3 frame kit, GW doesnt - to my recollection - do 4 frame kits for infantry units, and a big part of that has to do with the logistics that underly the production process. the additional frames that gw is releasing with kill team can only exist because GW is upcharging for them to cover the added costs and associated overhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

I would guess it uses some sort of unnecessarily complex staggered alternating feed mechanism to chamber rounds from each belt on a separate basis, or its set up to pull the second belt in after the first depletes

Well, I hope we'll be able to buy that upgrade sprue on it's own at some point. I don't really want to try to source it from these KT boxes.

 Sasori wrote:
Well, I hope we'll be able to buy that upgrade sprue on it's own at some point.

If they did sell it it'd cost 1/3rd the price of a box of CSMs sadly. But they won't sell it. They'll want you to buy the even more expensive KT box.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

Magic.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just noticed on the reaper auto cannon that the feed consists of parallel strands of bullets. As far as I can see it has a single rotating barrel. So how do you feed it 2 bullets at a time and not have it jam?

Have you seen assault cannons!! 40k guns don’t have to make sense. Just look cool.

Gert wrote:Aaannnd now the horror sets in. I was really hoping that these rumours would be untrue.

Same. But if this is confirmed, then it's likely so is the rest. Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics out of the codex, Greater Possessed and Mutilators just gone, Accursed Weapons and jigsaw options for Terminators. And that godawful, unbalanced, Night Lords Legion trait. The only sliver of hope I can see is that these leaks are from playtest rules, so they could be different in the actual codex. But it's a very thin sliver.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Here I was thinking that the Nachmund KT box would contain the terrain they previewed not so long ago.

And here we have the 'Malibu Stacey's New Hat' sprue for the CSM kit. Chaincannon is nice, but I want two of that double-handed Chaineaxe.

The terrain in the box is pretty anaemic.

I'll take the chaincannon and the flayed skin pauldron, they can keep the rest.

Dudeface wrote:

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/21/the-new-chaos-space-marines-kill-team-is-here-and-theyve-got-a-host-of-new-ways-to-slay/

Upgrade sprue for CSM

And I think there is our first rumour confirmation.

Cursed weapons ahoy!

I wouldn't read terribly far into it - Orks got a sniper rifle after all.

At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn.

So oddly enough, I actually think having CSM troops at 60 points a unit is a benefit for us now. Cheap and not being too much of a point tax is how I see the value of good obsec troops now. With the game being so lethal as it is now. 1W, 2W on a model doesn't matter much really.

I honestly am not that optimistic about the way the rumors are going with the new codex. No amount of new rules are going to make our basic CSM troops good at killing stuff. They are just basic troops. Just keep them cheap is what I want now.

Its the fast attack units and elite units that will matter. Why not heavy support? Well, short of daemon engine lists, I have come to the realisation that no amount of buffing in our heavy support will make them S tier. The key reason being we are not the shootist faction. We have never been known to be. GW simply will not buff our heavy support units to the shooting level of Tau. And while Daemon Engines are fluffy, I want more because our codex is called codex CSM, it is not called codex daemon engines.

So it will be the FA and Elite choices where we will get a lot of our power from in the new codex. But if its true we are losing all the cult marines, then, we basically just have our base terminators, chosen, warp talons, raptors and bikes. (Are possessed in or out? I have no idea).

So yeah... I really have no idea how they are going to go with this new codex. And I kind of worry.

Its kind of ironic that with Custodes, GW was willing to give that army literally everything, with zero weakness! Its fast (cos jet bikes), super tanky, shoots hard (cos salvo), hits hard and even can have 4++ to mortal wounds. How can GW allow an army that can literally do everything so well?

Like numerous armies have T3 (fragile), some are slow (DG). Some are bad in melee (Tsons, IG and Tau). What did Custodes give up? seriously. They literally have zero downside...

Numbers. It's just painful as we're in the elites swing of the edition pendulum

Eldenfirefly wrote:
At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn...

Noooo !! Don't do it ! Don't lose hope. Not so close our fabled 2nd wound !

Eldenfirefly wrote:
...They literally have zero downside...

They all look the same. That's their downside

We have yet to see how GW is going to treat the Kill Team extra sprues.

The only kits that have had extra sprues put out have been the Cadian Shock Troops (which was before kill team), the Pathfinders (which aren't out on their own yet) and the Chaos Marines (which aren't out at all yet).

Could be they treat these boxes like the Cadian Shock Troop box which replaces the old one. Could be they sell some of them side-by-side, label one Kill Team Legionaries (like how the Krieg and Kommando boxes are clearly labeled for Kill Team) and the other the regular Chaos Marines.

We'll see what happens. I have a feeling that, like the Sister Novitiates, it'll be a half-sprue of extra weapons/options, so it likely won't be a drastic increase in price, because GW tends to keep their base troop units relatively inexpensive since you need a lot of them, but then makes more elite units and HQ's much more expensive, but I could be wrong.

beast_gts wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw has sense of humour poking fun with 12 wound csm

Nothing in the article mentions 12 wounds. What are you talking about?

Ah, I don't have FB and go directly to the WarCom site.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
At this point, I would rather they keep our basic troops at 1W. In most factions now, obsec troops are just there to do actions and keep behind LOS terrain to huddle on an objective. Or to throw on an objective with the expectation they die next turn.

So oddly enough, I actually think having CSM troops at 60 points a unit is a benefit for us now. Cheap and not being too much of a point tax is how I see the value of good obsec troops now. With the game being so lethal as it is now. 1W, 2W on a model doesn't matter much really.

I honestly am not that optimistic about the way the rumors are going with the new codex. No amount of new rules are going to make our basic CSM troops good at killing stuff. They are just basic troops. Just keep them cheap is what I want now.

Its the fast attack units and elite units that will matter. Why not heavy support? Well, short of daemon engine lists, I have come to the realisation that no amount of buffing in our heavy support will make them S tier. The key reason being we are not the shootist faction. We have never been known to be. GW simply will not buff our heavy support units to the shooting level of Tau. And while Daemon Engines are fluffy, I want more because our codex is called codex CSM, it is not called codex daemon engines.

So it will be the FA and Elite choices where we will get a lot of our power from in the new codex. But if its true we are losing all the cult marines, then, we basically just have our base terminators, chosen, warp talons, raptors and bikes. (Are possessed in or out? I have no idea).

So yeah... I really have no idea how they are going to go with this new codex. And I kind of worry.

Its kind of ironic that with Custodes, GW was willing to give that army literally everything, with zero weakness! Its fast (cos jet bikes), super tanky, shoots hard (cos salvo), hits hard and even can have 4++ to mortal wounds. How can GW allow an army that can literally do everything so well?

Like numerous armies have T3 (fragile), some are slow (DG). Some are bad in melee (Tsons, IG and Tau). What did Custodes give up? seriously. They literally have zero downside...

The problem is that Chaos Marines are basically just Space Marines with a different coat of paint, curved blades and sprinkled tails and tongues. They're supposed to all be 10,000 year old veterans who have bathed in the Warp, learned from deamons and from mighty warp entities. They're supposed to be blessed with powers, dark gifts and abilities that make even the abilities of normal astartes jump up to 11. Everything has been enhanced beyond what even the emperor's genetic gifts could bestow. Strength, Endurance, Speed.

But they aren't portrayed like that. Their squads should be smaller, but way more killy and tough when compared to their cousins. They should be able to cary a lot of flexibility with their tactics because they have the training of Astartes, but also the blessings of the Dark Gods.

Sort of the way I see it is something like this.

Legionaries should be capped at 5 models per unit. Something like this for a statline: M: 6 WS: 3+ BS: 3+ S: 5 T: 5 W: 3 A: 2 Ld: 9 Sv: 3+
I think having an inbuilt 5+ or 6+ FNP to illustrate that they are protected not only by their armor, but the warp energy that they've gained is a must. Some testing could be done to see if either 5 or 6 is too little or too much, adjustments can then be made. They should be able to take lots of different weapons, having very strange but cobbled together loadouts. Instead of a "Boltgun" as a weapon, it probably needs to be something like "Warp-fire Boltgun" and either remain at S4, but gain a point of AP or move up both in AP and S as it's a weapon that is fueled by warp energy. Five Legionaries should easily equal 20 regular Astartes.

Terminators might come in three models per unit. Their statline could be: M: 5 WS: 2+ BS: 2+ S: 6 T: 7 W: 5 A: 4 Ld: 9 Sv: 2+
As the Legionaries, test the 5-6+++ Idea, but make sure they keep their classic 5++, consider testing it at a 4++.

There are many other types of rules that could be considered. Marking a unit of Legionaries with the mark of Khorne could enhance their WS: to a 2+ and could grant the whole unit an additional attack. A mark of Nurgle on the Terminators could increase their FNP to a 4+++ or grant T8, making them very hard to kill without access to Plasma or Melta strength weapons. The Mark of Slaneesh on either unit could add +1 Movement and grant +1 advance and +1 Charge as well. I much prefer the idea of marks DOING something other than just opening up stratagems.

This is really rough, but I think you can see what I mean. They need to feel like their own unique faction, rather than just Copy-Paste Astartes with Horns and Tentacles. Until we get GW on this line of thinking, the army is going to be treated as the second rate cousin that it has been for many editions now.

And that leads me to this statement.

Custodes are, what CSM should be. Whenever I see Custodes being played I can't help but think this is how the CSM should play. Not cookie-cutter-copy-paste Astartes. But as absolute U N I T S. Terrifying in battle, towering over even Primaris, brimming with eldritch energies and empowered through dark prayers, foul magics and "gifts" of the Dark Gods they now Serve.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And that godawful, unbalanced, Night Lords Legion trait. The only sliver of hope I can see is that these leaks are from playtest rules, so they could be different in the actual codex. But it's a very thin sliver.

Seems like the trait is working on you already... impressive.

drbored wrote:
We have yet to see how GW is going to treat the Kill Team extra sprues.

The only kits that have had extra sprues put out have been the Cadian Shock Troops (which was before kill team), the Pathfinders (which aren't out on their own yet) and the Chaos Marines (which aren't out at all yet).

Could be they treat these boxes like the Cadian Shock Troop box which replaces the old one. Could be they sell some of them side-by-side, label one Kill Team Legionaries (like how the Krieg and Kommando boxes are clearly labeled for Kill Team) and the other the regular Chaos Marines.

We'll see what happens. I have a feeling that, like the Sister Novitiates, it'll be a half-sprue of extra weapons/options, so it likely won't be a drastic increase in price, because GW tends to keep their base troop units relatively inexpensive since you need a lot of them, but then makes more elite units and HQ's much more expensive, but I could be wrong.

The death korps guard were a standard infantry squad with a killteam extra sprue but I feel they will be released on their own eventually.

 Togusa wrote:
Custodes are, what CSM should be. Whenever I see Custodes being played I can't help but think this is how the CSM should play. Not cookie-cutter-copy-paste Astartes. But as absolute U N I T S. Terrifying in battle, towering over even Primaris, brimming with eldritch energies and empowered through dark prayers, foul magics and "gifts" of the Dark Gods they now Serve.

Suddenly I want to convert a Custodes army to be Chaos-y.

drbored wrote:
We have yet to see how GW is going to treat the Kill Team extra sprues.

The only kits that have had extra sprues put out have been the Cadian Shock Troops (which was before kill team), the Pathfinders (which aren't out on their own yet) and the Chaos Marines (which aren't out at all yet).

Could be they treat these boxes like the Cadian Shock Troop box which replaces the old one. Could be they sell some of them side-by-side, label one Kill Team Legionaries (like how the Krieg and Kommando boxes are clearly labeled for Kill Team) and the other the regular Chaos Marines.

We'll see what happens. I have a feeling that, like the Sister Novitiates, it'll be a half-sprue of extra weapons/options, so it likely won't be a drastic increase in price, because GW tends to keep their base troop units relatively inexpensive since you need a lot of them, but then makes more elite units and HQ's much more expensive, but I could be wrong.

I expect that in the longer term you'll see:
a) A Kill Team branded box with both the basic kit and upgrade sprue. This is currently the only way to buy Krieg guys. Troops will have a slight discount (like how Krieg are cheaper than Kommandos).
b) Where possible (Krieg Guardsmen or CSM) the Combat Patrol box contains just the base troops models without the upgrade sprue.
c) Some base kits might also show up in Xmas or battle boxes too without the extra KT sprue.

Old GW would've sold the upgrade sprues on their own. It was a more innocent time

I'm wondering what's going to happen to my Emp's Children army. I would hope that I could still take Noise Marines as troops, but no one has said one way or the other. I don't own a single CSM or cultist as my army was driven by the Noise Marines so if I have to buy "Legionaires" then I'm probably out of here until 10th.

Billicus wrote:
Old GW would've sold the upgrade sprues on their own. It was a more innocent time

But Old GW didn't have a Facebook page!!!

part of the problem is GW's refusal of allowing customisable rues / models has infected its design choices, meaning that the CSM codex has to represent everything from a recent turncoat to a veteran legionaire chosen to a chaos lord of old.
In one dex.
Now GW would be perfectly capable of doing a customisable unit entry alas that would make it easier for 3rd parties to get a cut of the pie, even if most players didn't use 3rd parties to begin with in the aeons past, however in the aeons past Gw was also a lot cheaper and buying a bunch of bikas f.e. and nobs to create a big choppy warbika warboss was a lot more feasable.

 Togusa wrote:

The problem is that Chaos Marines are basically just Space Marines with a different coat of paint, curved blades and sprinkled tails and tongues. They're supposed to all be 10,000 year old veterans who have bathed in the Warp, learned from deamons and from mighty warp entities. They're supposed to be blessed with powers, dark gifts and abilities that make even the abilities of normal astartes jump up to 11. Everything has been enhanced beyond what even the emperor's genetic gifts could bestow. Strength, Endurance, Speed.

But they aren't portrayed like that. Their squads should be smaller, but way more killy and tough when compared to their cousins. They should be able to cary a lot of flexibility with their tactics because they have the training of Astartes, but also the blessings of the Dark Gods.

The fluff is pretty clear that that is *not* what they are supposed to be. The fluff goes to great lengths to explain that because of the way time in the warp flows, for many of the chaos legionnaires the Horus Heresy was basically yesterday and that they don't actually have 10,000 years of experience fighting the Emperor. Its also clear that not all chaos space marines are legionanaires of Heresy vintage and that many are more recent converts from the post-Heresy era who have either betrayed their chapters or are of one of numerous chapters that have turned against the Imperium. Likewise the fluff is clear that the chaos legions and renegade space marine chapters alike continue to recruit and create new marines through varying methods and that many within their ranks are not actually veterans of the Heresy era (and that in some cases the practices used to recruit and make new chaos marines results in them being inferior to the loyalist types as a result of mixing gene seeds or using damaged and degenerated genetic stocks, etc. Likewise the fluff goes to great lengths to make it clear that those astartes who have "bathed in the warp, learned from daemons and from mighty warp entites" are just as likely to turn up to be mutated squibs and mewling chaos spawn with all matter of deformities and useless mutations that actually make them less functional and less capable as they are to be blessed with powers, dark gifts, and supernatural abilities.

The idea that they've all honed their skills over millennia of fighting or have all been blessed by dark power and are all enhanced and dialed up to 11 is simply false. Its only a select few that can really claim that, specifically Chosen (representing a 10k year veteran whos picked up some warp-gifted ability over time as they've powered up and gained experience) and Possessed (representing a 10k veteran whos specifically made pacts with daemons and gods to buff themselves up to over 9000, to the point that their bodies have become a willing vessel/meathouse for daemons to inhabit), but the rules thus far have largely failed to represent that aspect of them well. Chosen have historically only been marginally better than a regular marine statline wise and veteran skills often haven't counted for much (if they had them at all) and they basically end up being CSM with extra weapon options, meanwhile Possessed have tended to trend more in the direction of being somewhere halfway between a chaos marine and a chaos spawn as opposed to being marines who've od'd on daemonic patronage and dark blessings.

What Chosen should have is a generally superior statline to CSM, i.e. 2+ WS/BS, +1A, +1W, +1 or +1 LD, plus the "veteran skill" concept (however thats implemented) and the access to expanded wargear + icons/marks and special upgrades/rules to represent 10,000 years of collected skill, ability, and warp-infused kit, etc. Unfortunately stats-wise it looks like they are getting just +1 Wound only vs regular legionnaires, not clear on LD - though they do gain an additional attack over legionnaires via accursed weapons being standard alongside bolter/bolt pistol, whereas legionnaires will only get that if they swap their bolter for a chainsword, so I guess it kinda levels out. Wargear-wise it sounds like their options are going to be made more restrictive/limited than it currently is (and arguably more limited than the legionnaires will be) and lose out on a lot of flexibility.

Possessed should be a Chosen thats hopped up on dark power, so +1S, +1T, +1A and another +1LD over a Chosen but trade out the veteran skill for invul save and/or special rules representing the gifts bestowed upon them by daemonic patronage, etc. It looks like they are getting the +1S and +1T and +2A (or +1 after you account for accursed weapons), not sure on LD again. Unfortunately, like in times past, they are probably going to stick with Possessed having traded in their weapons for subpar mutations, when in reality I would argue that Possessed should be the ones stuck with "accursed weapons" to represent a mixture of super-powered warp-gifted mutations and daemon-forged blades (which should probably have a slightly better profile than the accursed weapons currently do, I would say S+1 ap-3 d2 would be appropriate) and I'll also make the controversial statement that they should also have "daemonic boltguns" as a ranged weapon, representing a mixture of daemon-forged ranged weapons, daemon/warp-infused bolter shells, and mutation-induced ranged weapons (similar to obliterators having weapons that are literally parts of their bodies) with a profile like 18" Pistol 2 S5 AP -1 D1 (or maybe Pistol 1 but D2) that would put them in an interesting place where they are better than a bolter but different from an inferno boltgun/daemon prince warpbolters but still keeps the unit mainly melee focused while reprsenting the "daemonic instability" aspect that would probably otherwise interfere with their ability to aim at longer ranges (hence limited to 18" range). Oh, and give them the option for wings I guess. The main problem I have with posessed currently is that they are basically diet chaos spawn/a chaos spawn that kept their power armor and some of their marine abilities. Overall the unit better represents the idea of mutants wearing power armor, rather than being what should be more akin to mini-daemon princes. A daemon inhabiting the body of a 10,000 year veteran genetically engineered super-soldier should be a +++Marine that dials up all of a marines capabilities to 11, rather than a -Marine which has traded off a number of capabilities and skills to become a mediocre chaos spawn with an armor save.

I think there should be room for both extremes, and a balance, for CSM.

Relatively recent Renegades, still piecing together what they're doing.
Hard-bitten Legionnaires with millennia of experience and infused with Warpstuff.
And a mixture-perhaps a squad of those Legionnaires leading a much less disciplined and skilled warband, or a hard-bitten warband down on its luck that has to take on a few of the rabble.

Edit: I will say, T7 Terminators is kinda bonkers, though. That's... That's literally Dreadnought or Rhino tough, Togusa.

If GW had actually USED their new design space, it'd work better, but as-is, while I like your direction, I do think you went overboard.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think there should be room for both extremes, and a balance, for CSM.

Relatively recent Renegades, still piecing together what they're doing.

And they should just use the main SM codex because Renegades wouldn't suddenly forget they can use Landspeeders and Whirlwinds. The main Loyalist Scum codex needs to accommodate Huron and the Red Corsairs, the Crimson Slaughter, etc.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I think there should be room for both extremes, and a balance, for CSM.

Relatively recent Renegades, still piecing together what they're doing.

And they should just use the main SM codex because Renegades wouldn't suddenly forget they can use Landspeeders and Whirlwinds. The main Loyalist Scum codex needs to accommodate Huron and the Red Corsairs, the Crimson Slaughter, etc.

the best thing about the SM dex is, that it has more support and if you wanna go legion, you get all the ancient stuff like grav guns and such, which chaos marines just forgot, outside of FW of course.

This is why I support Intercessors and similar loyalist marines going down in points now. CSM need the points on them to be in the right place to allow the very similarly statted CSM units to be in the right place too.

Basic CSM will also never have better basic profiles than Plague Marines, Rubrics and (soon) Zerkers from the specilalist codexes.

Chosen though, they could and should have better profiles than PMs, etc.