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Eldritch Omens by unit, if you prefer just one or two things from the box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldritch Omens by unit, if you prefer just one or two things from the box.

Nice ! Thanks for the link !

Update post

CSM doctrine:

Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
Destruction ''Doctrine'': Heavy/grenade
Massacre ''Doctrine'': Rapid fire/assault
Slaughter ''Doctrine'': pistol/melee

Marks:
Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS

Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)
vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound

''Daemonic Gifts'': (purchaseable upgrade)
Khorne: +1S on the charge
Nurgle: -1 to wound
Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save
Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)
Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each


Legion rule:

NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT
6" aura that cancels obsec

Relics
Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+

Stratagems
Vox scream: cancels AURAS
Jump pack DS turn 1

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT
Some way to give +1 damage to certain units

WB
Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)

BL
ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)

Alpha legion
-1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

Emperor's children
Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

Red corsairs
Charge if they advanced
Models count as 2 for obsec; Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

Creations of bile
+1 str/move
Fight after death in melee
wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

''Build a warband'' renegade traits
+4" to range other than grenade and relic
After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game

WE
Not in the codex


Datasheet info:

Disco lord
not much change

Sorcerer in terminator armor
can have a chaos familiar

Cultist HQ squad
buff cultist moral

Cypher
In the codex

CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon

Mutant cultists
a squad made of a mix of big mutant and small mutants
big mutant at S5 t4 & ap2 in melee
small mutant are S4 t4 & ap1 in melee

Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)
Are no longuer in the codex
Act like harlequins in CWE army, or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
Always Elites
can benefit from army rules
Cannot gain a legion trait

Fallen
No in the codex

Chosen
3w
Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
WS 3+/BS 3+/ 3A (champion 4a)
Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of traits from the list of build a warband traits
Loadout:
everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

Terminators
Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

Greater possessed
Not in the codex (my guess is the models are the new regular possessed models)

Possessed
S5 T5 3W 5A
unit of 10 (do not know if this is total or max)
Personnal guess: either the greater possessed model will be the new stand possessed model, or it will be an upgrade to the standard possessed unit, DG will probably get a FAQ to receive the update

Mutilators
no longer in the book

Warp talon
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Venomcrawler
is now FA
is a bit faster (my guess 12" instead of 10")
now gives +1 to psychic tests
claws and mechatentrites are now just 1 weapon (again my guess this means the claw profile may be getting +2a)
ws3 bs3

Obliterators
have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
ignore modifier for heavy weapons
armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
Has 3 shooting profiles:
Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Other:
Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits (build a warband)
The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle

Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

drbored wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

I believe legionnaries are simply the CSM troop choice+ KT sprue. so i am guessing the patrol will come with the sprue.

So Chosen are basically bladeguard except without the shields so they have no invul save? In other words, they are worse bladeguard ... lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:

drbored wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

I believe legionnaries are simply the CSM troop choice+ KT sprue. so i am guessing the patrol will come with the sprue.

I wonder if the balefire tome can be taken on more than one unit. If it can, it will be wild. Its like every Legionaire squad will be like a rubric marine squad. Can cast 1 and deny 1. But it might be a legion command thing, in which case its only limited to 1 unit.

If warptalons are 2W each and gain "no fallback". That would make them pretty useful. No fallback is huge, especially against armies like Tau.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So Chosen are basically bladeguard except without the shields so they have no invul save? In other words, they are worse bladeguard ... lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:

drbored wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

Some interesting tidbits about the Legionaries... I thought that that might be Chaos Marines but with an extra kill team sprue, but then you said they'd be in the combat patrol...

So that's definitely a headscratcher right there.

I believe legionnaries are simply the CSM troop choice+ KT sprue. so i am guessing the patrol will come with the sprue.

I wonder if the balefire tome can be taken on more than one unit. If it can, it will be wild. Its like every Legionaire squad will be like a rubric marine squad. Can cast 1 and deny 1. But it might be a legion command thing, in which case its only limited to 1 unit.

If warptalons are 2W each and gain "no fallback". That would make them pretty useful. No fallback is huge, especially against armies like Tau.

I think Bladeguard and Chosen play very different roles. Chosen having access to combi weapons and an extra trait is pretty great.

As for the Legionairies... tough to say. What can they cast? Some boiled down smite? Might also cost quite a few points to equip, but might also be some good defense against psychic-heavy armies like thousand sons and grey knights.

And yeah, I look forward to Warp Talons being something to fear for once.

--

The combat patrol also makes me wonder what they'll do with the Obliterators and Venomcrawler. The oblits, VC, and greater possessed were all on one sprue in the start collecting box. The master of possession was on his own sprue, so easy to see him getting his own box, and the chaos marines were just monopose marines. But the Oblits and VC are kind of... important.

Obliterators just feels like they have too few shots even with the new profiles. Like D3 big shots? If they roll a 1... that's just one shot coming from a model that will likely cost 90 points? And its not even 3+D3 damage... (Even 3+D3 damage doesn't feel like its enough for so few shots). The Str 7 shot isn't much better. Its only D2 AP2 and there is so much -1 damage in the game now. Only the lower str profiles look more interesting because it has enough shots to justify the Obliterator's cost. But if its all 24 inch range... its just sort of limiting. 4 Havocs can pack 4 chain guns and shoot 32 shots anyway, which is not much worse than 3 obliterators shooting using the lowest profile. And 4 Havocs will probably be cheaper than 3 obliterators by quite a mile.

It feels like a missed opportunity with Obliterators if these rumors are true. Obliterators are specific only to CSM codex. They really should do something more interesting with Obliterators. Of course, there might be strategems for obliterators. But if the baseline stats are not great and needs to be propped up by strategems... its just not a great place to be.

My guess is at least Iron Warriors will have some way to prop oblits up but yeah unless they have the core keyword, don’t see much use for them sadly. And I own 15 lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clockwork, any news on Abaddon? Thank you again for all your hard work.

Thanks for the summary clockworkchris!

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Marks:
Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS

Sounds like they won't actually do anything...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)
vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound

Cool. Another round of "Icon dies = we forget who we're dedicated to". Joy.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
''Daemonic Gifts'': (purchaseable upgrade)
Khorne: +1S on the charge
Nurgle: -1 to wound
Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save
Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase

Games Workshop: Quantifying the statement 'Bare Minimum' at every possible opportunity!

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Emperor's children
Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

Still sucks that they're in the Codex. [EDIT]: And by that I mean, given that Cult Troops have been removed, it sucks that these haven't, as it means no update for them. They technically don't even have miniatures now, given that the kit you use the conversion parts with is no longer sold.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice

And for those of us not playing a Traitor Legion...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords

So no Bolter/Chainsword, and probably not on the Champ either.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)

Malibu Stacey's new hats.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

This is so stupid...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Fallen
No in the codex

Coming soon to a DLC campaign book near you! Maybe they'll be fighting the (conspicuously absent) Farsight Enclaves, or full Eldar Corsair armies.

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

Make it stop...

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Terminators
Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

I said make it stop!!!!!!!!!!!

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
Mutilators
no longer in the book

Games Workshop: Never missing opportunities to miss opportunities!

I think the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex is getting a second lease of life with these rumours. First they took our Daemons, and now our fething Cult Troops. Except Noise Marines, because feth EC players, apparently.

I could see the movement of plague marines, rubric marines, khorne berzerkers, and noise marines out of the Chaos Marine codex to be the first step in creating a more unique identity for chaos marines and keeping those things just for their respective legions.

I know, I know, fluff says otherwise, but we'll see what happens.

They will still let us play with cult marines. But the cult marines in a CSM army won't get the cool stuff, unlike if they were in their own respective legion.

Here is a little collage of what we didn't already know, for those who aren't bothered to compare:

Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each

Relics
Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+


CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) (not confirmed but my guess is 10 man squad like plague marines and rubrics)
loadout:
AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
1 legionaire can take a special weapon
1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
1 legionaire can take a chaos icon


Other:
The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle

Thanks again for the update Clockworkchris !

So if I understood it correctly Chaos legionaries are taking the place of the regular CSM troupe ?
And do you know if EC still have a way to take noise marines as troupes ? Please, tell me there is

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


I think the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex is getting a second lease of life with these rumours. First they took our Daemons, and now our fething Cult Troops. Except Noise Marines, because feth EC players, apparently.

I am really looking forward to 4th ed CSM codex defenders to crawl out of the woodwork and argue completely wrecking the faction is good, actually.

jeeze those combi weapon restricions (1 combi Plas ) reek of can't have the CSM have something over loyalists..

Also build a warband better be AMAZING, else chosen suck even more, because lord knows nobody is going to run combi weapons with them due to the forced hodgepodge and d1 melee weapons ain't it chief.

Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

I know this is not for all but if they would at least move all the other items into Legends. That is not to say this new iteration of no models/no rules is very bad for the hobby but at least that way you can keep some of your old models in the game

So normal the CSM (legionaries) now have a profile of a primaris veteran? (Three attacks.) I don't oppose this, but it is a tad strange after years of GW insisting that normal CSM are no better than tacticals.

 Crimson wrote:
So normal the CSM (legionaries) now have a profile of a primaris veteran? (Three attacks.) I don't oppose this, but it is a tad strange after years of GW insisting that normal CSM are no better than tacticals.

GW has flip-flopped between CSMs being 'better' than standard SMs for a few editions; from 4-7th it was possible to have CSMs with both boltguns and chainswords, but this option was lost in 8th. A single attack isn't that much better, sure, but they were still in hand to hand superior to tactical Space Marines.

After ready this again, this all seems like a bunch of convoluted crap with annoying restrictions. No Greater Possessed, Cult Marines datasheets, Mutilators, or marks of Chaos beyond core and characters? No mention of Renegades beyond Creations and Red Corsairs? Three strange weapons profiles for Obliterators? Cult Marines don't get Legion traits? And the the icon of wrath seems far worse than what we have now. My excitement for this codex has really gone down. The Legion traits are good, but imo, they don't make up the other stuff that I mentioned.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
After ready this again, this all seems like a bunch of convoluted crap with annoying restrictions. No Greater Possessed, Cult Marines datasheets, Mutilators, or marks of Chaos beyond core and characters? No mention of Renegades beyond Creations and Red Corsairs? Three strange weapons profiles for Obliterators? Cult Marines don't get Legion traits? And the the icon of wrath seems far worse than what we have now. My excitement for this codex has really gone down. The Legion traits are good, but imo, they don't make up the other stuff that I mentioned.

To be fair Greater Possessed have been around all of 5 minutes and could easily be rolled back in as squad leader or something, mutilators were a terrible idea from the get-go, the marks kinda makes sense from a "tournament balance lever" angle but I don't like it. The renegades are the build your own option, the reason creations and corsairs get a shout is both they have existing models and have been historically pushed more. Profiles for oblits is fine, less random is always good. Cult marines is a shame and I dislike it, icon of wrath on it's own isn't worth losing sleep over.

The biggest issue I see, which nobody has mentioned yet, is that combat patrol box simply has to be wrong or it becomes a literal impossibility to get hold of master of possessions, venomcrawlers and obliterators.

So... until they launch the new world eaters codex, no one gets to play with Khorne berzerkers once the 9th edition CSM codex drops? That's kind of sad face.

It does put WE armies in a weird position. I guess they would use the 8th ed CSM codex until their codex comes out. But that leads to all sorts of chaos. So maybe...

If we are lucky the could just throw out a balance sheet or FAQ for the Berzerkers and call it a day till the WE Sup dropps.
Didn't they do that with the DA, BA and SW when Codex SM dropped?

Yeah but those Supplements were all released within 3 months of the Marine Codex and those armies could still be played without them. This ain't that.
The fact there seems to be so much radical change makes these rumours less than believable IMO.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Yea, the only thing I had to do was shift around which models were in which squads, and ignore some bolt pistols (although this new batch clarified that, so it seems the bolt pistols are a-okay!)

 Gert wrote:
Yeah but those Supplements were all released within 3 months of the Marine Codex and those armies could still be played without them. This ain't that.
The fact there seems to be so much radical change makes these rumours less than believable IMO.

How so? if the FAQ Supplement just introduces the Berzerker and a couple of Strats, Traits, relic, like back in the Index areas first CA everything can work till a month later the WE Dex dropps

This does not mean these rumors are true. For me at least this does not make them more or less believable.

For all we know GW could just not care as C SM/Legions are just not important for them.
We need to remember for GW Money comes first and then comes the model, only a loooong way after that any hobby aspect comes in.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 clockworkchris9 wrote:
CSM legionaries
legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice

And for those of us not playing a Traitor Legion...

I knew I never should have used that monkey paw!!!
I always wanted a better distinction between HH chaos marines and the renegades with separate datasheets for each but not like this!

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
How so? if the FAQ Supplement just introduces the Berzerker and a couple of Strats, Traits, relic, like back in the Index areas first CA everything can work till a month later the WE Dex dropps

Ok, but you know that WE aren't going to be a Supplement right? If a WE book does get made it will be in the same vein as Tsons and DG, not similar to DA or SW where 90% of the roster is shared with a parent Codex. You can't play Tsons and DG using the CSM Codex unlike DA and SW which you can play with just the SM Codex. Even discounting the fact that WE aren't confirmed, we have absolutely no timeframe for when the Codex would be released, and I would be very surprised if it was a month after the CSM Codex.

For all we know GW could just not care as C SM/Legions are just not important for them.
We need to remember for GW Money comes first and then comes the model, only a loooong way after that any hobby aspect comes in.

Not exactly sure what you mean here.