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What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

Sure, you could have gone renegade at any point so you could realistically use the strat.
However, the Legions have a unique perspective on what the Long War is, something that a renegade could never experience. They didn't just turn to Chaos for power or freedom, they had a cause they believed in and a leader they thought would lead them to victory and then failed. This kind of bitter hatred can be bred into a newly inducted Legionary by a group who were there and witnessed the height of the Legion's power but not so much an Astartes who, potentially just months prior, was a loyal servant of the Emperor. Successive generations of Renegades could obviously indoctrinate their hatred of the Imperium onto their next generations but I argue it's still not the same experience as a member of the Traitor Legions.
Mostly I would argue that it's a simple way to differentiate the Legions and the Chapters.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

I don't disagree - I'd rather a Brass Scorpion myself! - but if the issue is the size of the release, then the Slaughterbrute helps fill the role of a "big monster" whilst simultaneously causing GW no extra expenditure (wouldn't want them to have to raise the prices twice this year! ) and opening up another avenue for purchase for that single kit beyond AoS and 1KSons players.

(Full Disclosure: I own a Slaughterbrute, simply because it was cool, and I'd love for it to get 40k rules like my Mutalith did! )

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Personally I think it's kind of amazing just how many releases Death Guard got, yet despite that they still managed to invalidate every squad in my army.

One squad in your army may be invalidated. One squad may lose a model to still be valid. One squad may...

EviscerationPlague wrote:
One squad in your army may be invalidated. One squad may lose a model to still be valid. One squad may...

Heheheh. Very nice. That one got me.

Me personally I’d like to see the return of the Chaos Cannon of Khorne or Chaos Cauldron of Blood. Or would those just be considered daemons now :(

I kinda thought the skulldozer was an update of the combined wheeled/tower daemon engines already?

It was a Lord of Battle kinda mixed with a Cauldron of Blood and a Death Dealer.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a Lord of Battle kinda mixed with a Cauldron of Blood and a Death Dealer.

Likewise cannon of khorne = daemons skull cannon in concept iirc

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a Lord of Battle kinda mixed with a Cauldron of Blood and a Death Dealer.

...Warhammer is a silly thing isn't it ?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Iron Warriors and Obliterators will FOREVER live rent free in the heads of the anti CSM 3.5 ed codex people. The entire codex must be condemned on that basis.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

and there is me who started TS with the 3.5 Codex and had a lot of fun as they just "sucked" compared to IW, and I still think the list was better than anything the new stand alone Codex added (mainly because I don't play Codex Tzaangors)

For all the issues of 3.5ed CSM (it's very clear from even a brief flick-through that there's plenty of trap options and plenty of "just pick this to win lol") that there is mountains upon mountains of flavour. Everything can be customised, everything can be made to be cool. Sonic Predators, Rubricane Havocs.

All that is gone now. Sure you can have 'count-as' stuff, but the lack of the actual options is well, noticeable.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

And that's another thing: what about Renegades? Are you now suddenly a "Legionaire" as soon as you turn against the Corpse God? Or are Renegades getting a separate (and probably worse. Remember "no VOTLW"?) datasheet?

Heard this originally and thought, perhaps there will be 2 datasheets.

Not sure why they'd abandon Renegades in favor of Legionaires. Certainly would not fit Red Corsairs, who appear to be featured prominently in the Codex.

One other thing: the dual handed Chainaxe, which appears to be an option for Aspiring Champions. If this is a thing, it will probably be more of a thing in World Eaters Codex. I have a couple metal Khorne CSMs featuring one, very interesting models.

I don't think there is much point in gettin stuck on the unit name. It was confusing that Chaos Space Marines was the name of both the unit and the faction, so it makes sense to change the name. But that the unit is called 'Legionaries' doesn't mean they cannot be used to represent renegades.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

I don't disagree - I'd rather a Brass Scorpion myself! - but if the issue is the size of the release, then the Slaughterbrute helps fill the role of a "big monster" whilst simultaneously causing GW no extra expenditure (wouldn't want them to have to raise the prices twice this year! ) and opening up another avenue for purchase for that single kit beyond AoS and 1KSons players.

(Full Disclosure: I own a Slaughterbrute, simply because it was cool, and I'd love for it to get 40k rules like my Mutalith did! )

Well, why not both? Since the Slaughterbrute is essentially a "free" model for gw, there's really no downside for them to include it in the list.

blood reaper wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Iron Warriors and Obliterators will FOREVER live rent free in the heads of the anti CSM 3.5 ed codex people. The entire codex must be condemned on that basis.

Yeah, whenever someone starts complaining about 3.5 I always ask them "So, what exactly was broken about Night Lords in that book?". And then answer is always *crickets* . The complaints are always Iron Warriors and the Siren psychic power. So, stuff unavailable to 6 of the 9 Legions in the book.

@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

But it's not things. It's thing, one strat. I just don't see it as a problem.

 Gert wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

But it's not things. It's thing, one strat. I just don't see it as a problem.

But it was the strongest stratagem in the codex, so locking Renegades out of it essentially made them "weaker". It's similar to how at various times some of the Legions have been locked out of some or all Marks, and I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good call?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yeah, whenever someone starts complaining about 3.5 I always ask them "So, what exactly was broken about Night Lords in that book?". And then answer is always *crickets* . The complaints are always Iron Warriors and the Siren psychic power. So, stuff unavailable to 6 of the 9 Legions in the book.

3.5ed complainers either point to that (and you could've balanced IW simply by cutting the access to additional Obliterators and Heavy Support options and removing Siren) or attempt to begin a bizarre discourse on the presence of renegades. "But what about Renegades? The book doesn't feature Renegades!" (therefore all legion choices should be cut).

The stain of the 4th ed Codex has never left the faction. That codex sucks so much it has managed to wreck every subsequent codex.

You guys are reading way too much into HBMC reading way too much into a simple complaint of "Thousand Sons lacked options in 3.5".

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

Everyone who used it, maybe. Certainly not everyone who faced it - even if they were only having to face the IW aspect of the book.

@HBMC - Would you not have the Lord of Skulls on your list of potential units for the WE book? It is explicitly Khornate, after all.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Gert: If they're going to lock Renegades out of things like VotLW, then they should get something that the Legions don't in return. They shouldn't just be "Legions -1". Agree?

But it's not things. It's thing, one strat. I just don't see it as a problem.

But it was the strongest stratagem in the codex, so locking Renegades out of it essentially made them "weaker". It's similar to how at various times some of the Legions have been locked out of some or all Marks, and I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good call?

Never mind the 2 pages of strats, 5 extra warlord traits and a page of relics per legion they never got parity on.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Edit: And weird that Chosen have the same number of attacks as the "standard" troops. Guessing so do terminators?

Well they don't even get unique weapons anymore, so why would the absolute cream of the crop, best-of-the-best, veteran Chaos Space Mari... sorry, Legionnaires have more attacks than regular Spa... Legionnaires?

That'd just be silly!

And that's another thing: what about Renegades? Are you now suddenly a "Legionaire" as soon as you turn against the Corpse God? Or are Renegades getting a separate (and probably worse. Remember "no VOTLW"?) datasheet?

GW probably realised that 99% of people play some form of Legion army. Renegade players are a distinct minority outside of when the tournament meta shifts a certain way.

I say this as someone with a small Renegade Chapter collection.

 Dysartes wrote:
@HBMC - Would you not have the Lord of Skulls on your list of potential units for the WE book? It is explicitly Khornate, after all.

I was more listing new things, but I guess it counts as a vehicle.

Bigger question though: Would it be cut from the CSM book?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

Everyone who used it, maybe. Certainly not everyone who faced it - even if they were only having to face the IW aspect of the book.

@HBMC - Would you not have the Lord of Skulls on your list of potential units for the WE book? It is explicitly Khornate, after all.

You do realize that those of us that played other Legions had to deal with the same IW cheese as well, right? And we still loved the codex.

Those of us who played Iron Warriors and didn't bring 3x3 Oblits, a Basilisk and whatever else was the 'meta' also had to deal with.

I brought Havocs, for crying out loud...

 Platuan4th wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?

There's a whiff of disingenuity with that statement, given that it's a well documented fact that 1KSons sucked in 3.5, so calling it a 'much celebrated' book in that context seems like a judgement on the whole book based upon Pete Haine's 2nd mistake (the first being to give his own army - Iron Warriors - the best rules).

Yes, we sucked in 3.5, and everyone does, in fact, celebrate the hell out of the book, thus it's a "much celebrated book".

An army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

Thousand Sons don't have any, no reason to think World Eaters will. Thus far (admittedly its a sample size of 2) the only legion with its own unique wargear in the codex are the Death Guard, with 3 daemon engines (PBC, MBH, FBD, not including additional from forgeworld), plus a bevy of special and heavy weapons to select from across their vehicles and units. The only unique gear the Thousand sons have are warpflamers/heavy warplamers, soulreaper cannons, prosperine kopeshes and whatever their special cyclone missile launchers on terminators are called, everything else is bog standard chaos marines kit (except for, arguably, inferno boltguns). Even then the terminator missile launchers aren't particularly unique themselves. I would love for 1kSons to get the same treatment DG did, and I hope WE get that same treatment too.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'd add "plastic Blood Slaughterer". WE should have at least one unique daemon engine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
What stuff were Renegades locked out of? Because I've found exactly one strat, VotLW.

Yeah, but should they have been locked out of that? If you went Renegade in M33, I'm pretty sure you qualify as a "veteran" by the "current time-line".

Thousand Sons don't have any, no reason to think World Eaters will. Thus far (admittedly its a sample size of 2) the only legion with its own unique wargear in the codex are the Death Guard, with 3 daemon engines (PBC, MBH, FBD, not including additional from forgeworld), plus a bevy of special and heavy weapons to select from across their vehicles and units. The only unique gear the Thousand sons have are warpflamers/heavy warplamers, soulreaper cannons, prosperine kopeshes and whatever their special cyclone missile launchers on terminators are called, everything else is bog standard chaos marines kit (except for, arguably, inferno boltguns). Even then the terminator missile launchers aren't particularly unique themselves. I would love for 1kSons to get the same treatment DG did, and I hope WE get that same treatment too.

I didn't say that they "would", I said that they "should". And so should Thousand Sons, for that matter.