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 Gert wrote:

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
How so? if the FAQ Supplement just introduces the Berzerker and a couple of Strats, Traits, relic, like back in the Index areas first CA everything can work till a month later the WE Dex dropps

Ok, but you know that WE aren't going to be a Supplement right? If a WE book does get made it will be in the same vein as Tsons and DG, not similar to DA or SW where 90% of the roster is shared with a parent Codex. You can't play Tsons and DG using the CSM Codex unlike DA and SW which you can play with just the SM Codex. Even discounting the fact that WE aren't confirmed, we have absolutely no timeframe for when the Codex would be released, and I would be very surprised if it was a month after the CSM Codex.

I am well aware but without the Codex WE no one will be able to field Berzerker, thus I expect the Codex to drop right on the heels of Codex CSM. Just because that is what I would want, not what I necessarily expect GW to do, see below.

For all we know GW could just not care as C SM/Legions are just not important for them.
We need to remember for GW Money comes first and then comes the model, only a loooong way after that any hobby aspect comes in.

Not exactly sure what you mean here.

I was trying to elaborate on the previous statement about the reliability of the rumors. There is no pattern or reason behind what GW does except these two things. So even if i am not right and the Codex WE comes at Christmas the rest of the rumors could be true just because no designer made any model designs for WE yet and GW things they need to sell more SM (all flavors) not any other faction.

On the WE front, I suspect they would do some kind of a stopgap Online PDF to hold people over until The actual codex comes out. It would probably be very basic, but that would track.

Did I miss what is on the KT sprue somewhere in this thread? Curious what kind of upgrades there are.

Besides the Cursed weapon and killing Terminator loadouts, I admit I am liking what I see so far. Thanks again for posting these rumors.

EDIT: I will say that I am pretty suprised by the Greater possessed unit entry not existing anymore. Their Aura and Buff will be missed if you can't get that anymore.

Hi, could I honestly ask what purpose the chosen serve? I have never used em before but it seems to me that possessed are scarier in combat and I could use havocs for shootyshoot. I guess I am no good at spotting what makes a good unit but I just can't work out what role they are supposed to play

Re missing WE, another solution is that Dex drops first, then they are accessible cult troops in the csm Dex

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:
I am well aware but without the Codex WE no one will be able to field Berzerker, thus I expect the Codex to drop right on the heels of Codex CSM. Just because that is what I would want, not what I necessarily expect GW to do, see below.

I was trying to elaborate on the previous statement about the reliability of the rumors. There is no pattern or reason behind what GW does except these two things. So even if i am not right and the Codex WE comes at Christmas the rest of the rumors could be true just because no designer made any model designs for WE yet and GW things they need to sell more SM (all flavors) not any other faction.

When was the last time a Codex was released without new models alongside it? When was the last time a brand new army was released without models alongside it?
GW doesn't do new Codexes without new models and GW certainly doesn't do new armies without new models.

 Sasori wrote:
On the WE front, I suspect they would do some kind of a stopgap Online PDF to hold people over until The actual codex comes out. It would probably be very basic, but that would track.

I think the same, but also given "World Eaters and Berserkers are missing from the codex" is completely impossible for GW to not address I'm going to assume the CSM launch is around when we'll get the first reveal/teaser of the WE 'dex.

 Sasori wrote:
Did I miss what is on the KT sprue somewhere in this thread? Curious what kind of upgrades there are.

So far it sounds like at least a balefire tome and heavy chainaxe.

Possibly a daemon weapon for the champion (if it's distinct from the power sword) and new Chaos icons to make an icon bearer.

 Sasori wrote:
Besides the Cursed weapon and killing Terminator loadouts, I admit I am liking what I see so far. Thanks again for posting these rumors.

EDIT: I will say that I am pretty suprised by the Greater possessed unit entry not existing anymore. Their Aura and Buff will be missed if you can't get that anymore.

Yeah that's pretty garbage if they add a new unit with models only to remove or merge it into a different unit after only 1 edition.

I suppose new standard possessed could end up being greater possessed with the squad having the +1 strength aura and all, but it was kinda cool having Possessed "lieutenants".

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So... until they launch the new world eaters codex, no one gets to play with Khorne berzerkers once the 9th edition CSM codex drops? That's kind of sad face.

Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

When was the last time a Codex was released without new models alongside it? When was the last time a brand new army was released without models alongside it?
GW doesn't do new Codexes without new models and GW certainly doesn't do new armies without new models.

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gert wrote:

When was the last time a Codex was released without new models alongside it? When was the last time a brand new army was released without models alongside it?
GW doesn't do new Codexes without new models and GW certainly doesn't do new armies without new models.

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Which resulted in a bizzare situation where a good 1/3rd of an army wasn't in the codex.

 Jack Flask wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
On the WE front, I suspect they would do some kind of a stopgap Online PDF to hold people over until The actual codex comes out. It would probably be very basic, but that would track.

I think the same, but also given "World Eaters and Berserkers are missing from the codex" is completely impossible for GW to not address I'm going to assume the CSM launch is around when we'll get the first reveal/teaser of the WE 'dex.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if they announced codex World Eater and then left WE players dead in the water beyond that

 Platuan4th wrote:
Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.

No, because Black Templars were included in the Imperial Fists Supplement. But once again, Black Templars could be played without a Supplement because the rules for fielding them were included in the Space Marine Codex. World Eaters will undoubtedly follow the other God-Marked Legions in that they will be entirely separate from CSM with minimal crossover i.e. vehicles, Chaos Lords, Cultists, thereby not being similar to the process used with Space Marines. Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to say this?

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Just as a quick check:
Guard - Agreed, I couldn't find any new releases.
Grey Knights - Grandmaster Voldus was made available as a separate release from the Triumvirate of the Primarch IIRC.
Tyranids - Agreed.
Mechanicus - Were those units included in the Codex though or were there rules included in Engine War? If they were in the Codex and then delayed model release it still counts.
Thousand Sons - Got access to Mutalith and more Tzaangors.
Necrons - Got a plastic Cryptek with the little Spyder pet.

So I do agree that some Codexes didn't get releases. That being said, would you not agree that GW pairs Codex updates with model releases and that the precedent set with 9th would indicate that not a single Codex will not receive at least one new model? And that releasing a brand new army without a single new kit would be unheard of, yes?

Not sure what to make of the removal of greater possessed, and to a lesser extent mutilators. The way GW sells models, I don't forsee the Greater Possessed minis many of us already have being all that useful - it would be like if you bought a boxset that came with 2 random tempestus scions. They are sold in boxes of 5 and fielded in units or 5 or 10 (or 4 if you're running a command squad) - yes you can field a unit of 7, but thats not something that most players do. So if the new Possessed minis end up being "greater possessed" sized and you're fielding units 10, they are probably being sold in boxes of 10 and theres nothing you can really do with them. Even if they are units of 5-10, I think most players will end up buying a 2nd box so they can field a full 10 if they need to rather than say "lemme take a squad of 7 cuz I have some spares lol".

And unfortunately I dont really see any other role for them in the book, other than maybe as Exalted Champions/Lords or maybe in squads of Chosen (in which case the same problem with boxes of 5 applies IMO)?

Mutilators feel like less of a problem to me, as they are an older mini (as opposed to something that literally comes in the current start collecting box for the faction) and could conceivably be fielded as obliterators in melee mode, and frankly I don't know that anybody will much miss them.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.

No, because Black Templars were included in the Imperial Fists Supplement.

Wrong.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Didn't the Black Templars get a digital "get you buy" supplement when the 9th Marine Codex dropped until the actual supplement was released? Probably do the same for World Eaters.

No, because Black Templars were included in the Imperial Fists Supplement. But once again, Black Templars could be played without a Supplement because the rules for fielding them were included in the Space Marine Codex. World Eaters will undoubtedly follow the other God-Marked Legions in that they will be entirely separate from CSM with minimal crossover i.e. vehicles, Chaos Lords, Cultists, thereby not being similar to the process used with Space Marines. Jesus Christ, how many times do I have to say this?

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Mechanicus - Were those units included in the Codex though or were there rules included in Engine War? If they were in the Codex and then delayed model release it still counts.

Nope, they were first included in Engine War. I believe by the end of 8th it piled up to like... uh, 9, or so units not included in the Codex? Three variants of the Flier, both variants of the flying infantry, both variants of the cavalry and both variants of the transport.

 Gert wrote:

A whole bunch of the 8th Ed Codexes dropped with no model release: Guard, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Mechanicus(the wave with dogriders and flyers released later separate from the Codex), Thousand Sons, Necrons, to name a few.

Just as a quick check:
Guard - Agreed, I couldn't find any new releases.
Grey Knights - Grandmaster Voldus was made available as a separate release from the Triumvirate of the Primarch IIRC.
Tyranids - Agreed.
Mechanicus - Were those units included in the Codex though or were there rules included in Engine War? If they were in the Codex and then delayed model release it still counts.
Thousand Sons - Got access to Mutalith and more Tzaangors.
Necrons - Got a plastic Cryptek with the little Spyder pet.

So I do agree that some Codexes didn't get releases. That being said, would you not agree that GW pairs Codex updates with model releases and that the precedent set with 9th would indicate that not a single Codex will not receive at least one new model? And that releasing a brand new army without a single new kit would be unheard of, yes?

Existing models added to a book don't count as a release. The new Mechanicus units were added in Engine War. If you're counting Voldus, then you can't count the Canoptek Cloak Cryptek which wasn't individually released for another 6+ months(it was released in the same vs box as the Armiger Warglaives hence why I didn't count it as a "Codex release") after, in which case, the current Grey Knights and Thousand Sons Codexes didn't get a release, either(neither "release" has gotten a separate release from Witchfire).

Ah ok, my apologies.
And yet my point stands does it not? Every single Space Marine Subfaction could still be played with or without its Supplement. WE will categorically not be able to do this following on from what we've seen with DG and Tsons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Existing models added to a book don't count as a release. The new Mechanicus units were added in Engine War. If you're counting Voldus, then you can't count the Canoptek Cloak Cryptek which wasn't individually released for another 6+ months(it was released in the same vs box as the Armiger Warglaives hence why I didn't count it as a "Codex release") after, in which case, the current Grey Knights and Thousand Sons Codexes didn't get a release, either(neither "release" has gotten a separate release from Witchfire).

I thought Necrons got the Cryptek at the same time as the Codex, oh well. As for Voldus, absolutely counts because neither the unit nor the model was in the previous Codex. For the Infernal Master and Crowe, they were released with the Codexes in the Hexfire box and it's only factors outwith GW's control that they haven't been released individually post-Codex.

Also, nice dodge of the question I asked. Always easier to be right when you never have to answer

Greater Possessed existing at all always confused me.
Why not just make new regular Possessed?

Yeah, it was a weird add, but I think they were trying to introduce more of a chaos equivalent to Lieutenants or Ancients, etc. So they came up with the idea of a chaos space marine more daemonically infused than normal, to the extent that they had a daemonic aura that inspired/empowered other nearby units, whereas regular possessed were just mutated and killy madlads.

One wonders why they couldn't do a separate get-you-by PDF for EC as well...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One wonders why they couldn't do a separate get-you-by PDF for EC as well...

In what capacity?

By all reasonable assumption GW isn't prepared to spin them off as their own force so they're still printed in the main 'dex.

What possible reason would there be to make a PDF list for 2 unit entries and a handful of traits if it won't even be updated for likely another edition? Sadistic parity?

People keep clinging to the idea that Emperor's Children will get a codex soon, but they're deluding themselves. If World Eaters really do get their codex this year, look at how many years it took between Thousand Sons' 1st codex and them. It's probably years away.

Just like how in December people kept posting that the color purple on the advent engine articles was hinting at Emperor's Children showing up. It's just copium.

 DO IT TO IT wrote:
People keep clinging to the idea that Emperor's Children will get a codex soon, but they're deluding themselves.

I don't think anyone is clinging to that idea, or deluding themselves with anything. They're in the upcoming Chaos book, whereas WE aren't, and that's pretty clear cut.

I'm just saying that they should be cut because they should be doing an EC book.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Except I made a squad kitted out with all plasma guns.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Except I made a squad kitted out with all plasma guns.

So did I for one of my Chosen squads, your point?

 DO IT TO IT wrote:
People keep clinging to the idea that Emperor's Children will get a codex soon, but they're deluding themselves. If World Eaters really do get their codex this year, look at how many years it took between Thousand Sons' 1st codex and them. It's probably years away.

Just like how in December people kept posting that the color purple on the advent engine articles was hinting at Emperor's Children showing up. It's just copium.

TBF Tsons were released in November 2016 in Wrath of Magnus and DG were (properly) released in September 2017. Not that much time inbetween.
With both factions now fleshed out (sort of in the case of the Tsons), I wouldn't be surprised to see WE at the tail end of 2022/early 2023. But EC? Nah. If they're coming in 9th its going to be dead last after every other possible option (by my count Imperial Knights, Chaos Knights, CSM, Daemons, Nids, the 6 Marine Supplements).

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Well, so much for all those Chosen I converted during 8th edition. I don't think any of them are legal anymore.

LET US CONVERT OUR MODELS, DAMMIT!

Barring the guns(which yes, affects all my older Chosen), having a generic weapon stat gives us MORE room for conversions, not less.

Except I made a squad kitted out with all plasma guns.

So did I for one of my Chosen squads, your point?

Assuming Manfred von Drakken means combi-plasmas, since straight up plasma guns were a 1/squad thing during 8th edition, still means that most of the models are likely legal still. Just can't be used together in a single unit. Like mine. I now have 3 units worth of combi-plasmas, and am free to model all the chain axes, power axes, chainswords etc that I want without worrying about taking 3 hours to resolve 1 units attacks.

Rihgu wrote:
Assuming Manfred von Drakken means combi-plasmas, since straight up plasma guns were a 1/squad thing during 8th edition, still means that most of the models are likely legal still. Just can't be used together in a single unit. Like mine. I now have 3 units worth of combi-plasmas, and am free to model all the chain axes, power axes, chainswords etc that I want without worrying about taking 3 hours to resolve 1 units attacks.

Actually, Chosen could have up to 5 Special Weapons in a unit. 4 could replace their Boltgun with Combi-Weapons or Special Weapons and an additional Chosen could replace their Boltgun with a Special or Heavy Weapon. So in a unit of 10, you could have 1 Champion, 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns, and 4 with Boltguns.

oh ho dang, so you can. My mind blanked out after Combi-Weapons every single time because why would you ever take the exact same weapon, with an upside, for no additional cost. (Except combi-flamers, for some reason, apparently?)

Why yes, I would like to completely specialize in killing vehicles and never have any option to use a bolter as well.

 Gert wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Assuming Manfred von Drakken means combi-plasmas, since straight up plasma guns were a 1/squad thing during 8th edition, still means that most of the models are likely legal still. Just can't be used together in a single unit. Like mine. I now have 3 units worth of combi-plasmas, and am free to model all the chain axes, power axes, chainswords etc that I want without worrying about taking 3 hours to resolve 1 units attacks.

Actually, Chosen could have up to 5 Special Weapons in a unit. 4 could replace their Boltgun with Combi-Weapons or Special Weapons and an additional Chosen could replace their Boltgun with a Special or Heavy Weapon. So in a unit of 10, you could have 1 Champion, 5 Chosen with Plasma Guns, and 4 with Boltguns.

And said Champion could take a Combi-Weapon from the Champion Weapon list, so you could do 5 Specials AND a Combi of the same weapon. Suffice to say, 3 of my Chosen squad are maxed out(Plasma for my Scourged, Meltas for my Iron Warriors, Flamers for my Night Lords). This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

 Platuan4th wrote:
This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

See I never really liked that Tsons, a Legion that had every single Marine turned into dust-filled magic-powered automatons, could have units like Raptors or Chosen. Why would they have Chosen when Rubrics exist? How could they have the fast unit of Raptors when the Legion's premier unit was slow-moving? I do think there should have been a Havoc variant of the Rubrics and at least some form of Daemon Engine or special magic weapon but a lot of things just didn't make sense for me. I do think Tsons got the short end of the stick when it came to unique units.

 Gert wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
This change still isn't as annoying as losing Chosen, Raptors, and Havocs from my Thousand Sons(there's a reason I even have a Scourged army...).

See I never really liked that Tsons, a Legion that had every single Marine turned into dust-filled magic-powered automatons, could have units like Raptors or Chosen. Why would they have Chosen when Rubrics exist? How could they have the fast unit of Raptors when the Legion's premier unit was slow-moving? I do think there should have been a Havoc variant of the Rubrics and at least some form of Daemon Engine or special magic weapon but a lot of things just didn't make sense for me. I do think Tsons got the short end of the stick when it came to unique units.

Look, I was excited to have options after having to deal with basically having Rubrics, Chosen, and Terminators plus vehicles during the much celebrated 3.5 book, OK?