I use to have a lot of trouble with making a Green Tide army work. Taking an almost all troop army has almost always ended in disaster, It's clunky, slow, and always seems to be in its own way. After 6th came out, I discovered an interesting thing about taking multiple units of 30 Orks, you can put a few in deep cover, even difficult terrain and just run them (they could even be slugga boyz but I usually only use Shootas). the rest of the 30 will move almost in a line, providing intervening cover for the other units. Because if they shoot the first group, the closest model would gain a cover save (unless they are removed) for the closest models in cover. But if they try to shoot the ones in the back they will give cover because of intervening models (this works both ways as you will give cover to your opponent as well, but most armies have better armor or cover saves and this doesn't provide them with any benefits. Unless you can work it to shoot the front models shoot before the back models run and give them the cover they need.

When this is working, it's almost beautiful as every available space is sucked up in the green tide, moving and switching places, eventually charging into Melee.
Have any Ork players experienced this? It's the only reason I would take the boyz is for their numbers and this is why I have stopped using Trukks or even looted wagons. Doing this I have found it makes the Big Mek KFF useless at the cost of 50pts for the cover save, that doesn't gain the benefit or bonus from models in cover.

Well the KFF mek will ensure up to 4 units will get a cover save no matter where the shots come from. I love that guy, you'll almost always get a cover save except from those tau guys. And the KFF will save enough boys to pay for its points.

If you want a cheaper wall then put 30 grots in the front.

I love the tide armies, Roll, Tide, Roll.

KFF is for vehicles

Drakka77 wrote:
KFF is for vehicles

And infantry (and allied infantry, but not allied vehicles).

The KFF is never truly a waste. There will be times when your Boyz aren't in cover (don't forget that cover could easily slow you down) and you'll need a KFF to keep you alive.

Also, have you considered taking away some Boyz and getting a few toys? Deffkoptas will help you deal with tanks before they become trouble. Dakkajets could help you trim up the threats (Devastators and the likes).

I have found that the 5+ cover KFF (50pts) is less effective than 4+ Terrain or intervening models (0pts) .

Slow you down to what 2" instead of 6" - Have you ever moved 4 (30 model) Ork units through a battlefield with Terrain? Because I have and I'm extremely lucky if they all get their 6". Because I will fire my 3 Big Shootas, they will not get to run.

Big Mek KFF is no match to a Warboss (which will take a Nob unit as a Troop) for nearly the same cost.
For 10 pts more you could have a Big Mek SAG.

If you get toys then you are not doing a Green Tide. Defkoptas seem to be a unit of choice for some, for me they are just a waste of points, a few pop shots at them and the unit will rout. Flooding the Field is the Green Tide method of madness.

Yes there is a green tide method that uses the Boyz Trukks, Big Mek is somewhat useful here, but not much since the Trukks are paper and 2/3 of the shots fired, the vehicle will ramshackle with a KFF around. Partly because all weapons can at least glance a trukk, str 5 or better and you will be rolling multiple dice (taking the lowest) on the ramshackle table. I say feh on trukks.

Give them a Battlewagon, that's a different story, fewer weapons that can hit the front or side and with some hull point damage to save against, the KFF might keep the Battlewagon around for another turn.

Other than just one vehicle and the Def Dread, the KFF is useless. It's certainly useless with a Green Tide Army. It's also useless with a Speed Freak and Zogwort's Weirdos. In fact the only army I would bring a Big Mek KFF is a Dread Mob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Well the KFF mek will ensure up to 4 units will get a cover save no matter where the shots come from. I love that guy, you'll almost always get a cover save except from those tau guys. And the KFF will save enough boys to pay for its points.

If you want a cheaper wall then put 30 grots in the front.

I love the tide armies, Roll, Tide, Roll.

With a Big Mek KFF, I have given 11 units the 5+ cover. I have marched a Wall of Orks down a no terrain field and watched them crumble. I have taken only 90 Orks (3 units) without a Big Mek and Flooded them down, not only getting line Breaker, but actually being able to block my opponents movement and took the 3 objectives.Because hiding inside this Tsunami of Orks, was another unit of Thraka and Meganobs. My Boyz, did take 3 Big Shootas, but did not have a Nob. The Chaos Marine player, could not challenge and was overwhelmed. My closest models were in terrain or behind other units and the cover save was actually nice to have. I then realize in all the games that I took the Big Mek KFF, I never thought to use their cover save, I just always rolled the 5+. The one game that I was using the Green Tide and realized that they had a better cover save, it was then that the 115 points I was spending on the Big Mek was worth almost an extra 20 Boyz and even if they were just cannon fodder - that's 18 more shots my opponent would have to take to remove them. Just like taking the Nob Boss, with a PK - that's 5 more boys, plus a Big Shoota - so 3 more shots.

As for Green Tiding with Gretchins, that's a scary thought. Not much of a wall when 9 out of 33 are removed, they have a 50/50 chance to rout. So 1 large blast temple could remove 120 points from your army. I personally would never Green Tide with them, they gain no benefit from being part of an Ork army - they only have a slightly better BS but 12" range str 3 weapon (the only weapon that can't hurt Hull 10) my question is why would you do that to yourself.

Two words: focus fire.

A unit of boyz is literally never completely in cover, so any opponent who knows what he is doing just announces focus fire whenever shooting at orks, just killing the ones outside of cover. Due to large unit sizes, rarely any wounds are wasted. The sole reason for the KFF is to deny focus firing, so you actually get a 5+ cover instead of no cover at all.
Not to mention that 4+ cover is not the norm, though when playing at a GW store, the usually provide little terrain besides ruins. Anything not made out of concrete or rocks will only provide 5+ as well.

The strategy you are suggesting actually isn't that new. The original green tides had a line of gretchin marching in front of them, to force your opponent to waste shots on 3 point models or give you a cover save. However, since casualties are now removed from the closest model to the shooter, your opponent can easily move up to the center of your line and shoot or tank-shock them out of coherency, making the whole strategy fall apart. Another option is charging the flank (or both!) of such a streched-out unit, forcing most of the unit into a conga line of death, as only two or three orks will fight at once.
Another poster hier on dakka tried to mitigate this by moving his orks in crecent-shaped lines, but that proved impractical during actual games, and doesn't fix the charge problem.

Your anecdote is just that, an anecdote.. A kff mek is 85 points, if you spend 115 on him, you're doing it wrong. His job is to bring the KFF, not act like a warboss. You should only ever give your big mek additional wargear if you have spare points after you crammed everything in your list. Besides, how on earth are you getting 9 hits out of a blast. Maybe try spreading out? If you ever lose more than five models to a large blast, you made a playing error.

In total, I think you are just lacking a little experience in playing orks, you are thinking too much like a space marine. Cover saves don't save orks, they force your opponent to spend more shooting on them. You simply don't get your whole army across the board without losses, but we can take a KFF to make at least half it get there. Whenever you make that 5+ roll for the KFF you get a free ork boy. On a mob of 30 you usually get 10 "free" orks. So if you make 15 successful KFF rolls during one game, the KFF already did the same as taking that many boyz.
Also, Gretchin are not for killing anything, they are are tarpit/speedbumps/cheap scoring unit. Charge a unit into a monstrous creature and it will spend the rest of the game killing 3 point gretchins. Sit 10 gretchin on an objective and force your opponent to drop an expensive drop pod onto a 40 point unit. Run a unit of gretchin at an advancing deathstar and watch a 1000 point Draigowing completely annihilating a unit of gretchin. How many points would you spend on making that unit "sit out" one turn?

A "pure" green tide is a powerful list (especially with shootaz), but not something that can beat everything. There are too many things out there which can simply annihilate ork mobz, whether they are 3 or 30 doesn't matter at all. You need some toyz to beat those things, otherwise a blendernaughts, purifiers, manticores, psychers, night scythes or soul grinders will completely ruin your army (just to name a few). I'd suggest adding lootaz and kannons, so you can actually do something about your opponent's threats before turn 3 - plus it still looks like a green tide.

I used to run green tide as well. I have not run them in 6th edition however. But most of what Jidmah said is spot on.

Things green tide will struggle with are dreadnoughts and land raiders. They always gave me fits. There is nothing more frustrating then your nob rolling 3, 3, and 2 on his to hit rolls against a dreadnought and you spend ANOTHER turn locked in combat instead of advancing.

Like Jidmah said, the goal of green tide is to get as many orks across the board as fast as you can. You want them in your opponents face so he has no choice but to deal with them. This is not a finesse army as much as a aim at the red ball and just go kind of army.

The only toys I consider bringing with Green Tide are Lootas to provide covering fire from the rear.

So your answer is no, you haven't used the run the closest models into cover or difficult terrain.
As far as my experience, I play only Orks and try to get in at least 1 game a week. I rarely use green tide, mostly because of the frustrations Green is Best mentioned.
I use Speed Freaks and Dread Mob list mostly. Recently, I've been battling Dark Eldar and brought along my green tide without a KFF and no Nob Boss. My HQ were a Warboss and Big Mek SAG, I used ADL (without a Quadgun) a unit of (1) Big Gunz. and 10 Boyz for rear objectives. This is the same Green Tide List, I used against Chaos Marines only once before and won by a point.
We used Heavy Terrain and I didn't run into any of the problems that Jidmah said. It could be because I was faced against a heavy Wacked DE force, but I easily moved where and how I wanted to. The Warboss and Nob unit did most of the heavy lifting and even though a few times they blasted me without cover, I brought numbers instead of relying on that 5+ cover save.

115 Point Big Mek (KFF, Burna, Cybork) If I'm using Trukks, I would add the Bosspole. Even stripped down to 85, that's still nearly 15 Boyz that can take 13 more shots than the Big Mek KFF

One of the comments I made about the KFF, is that I will forget that the unit might be getting hit with the closest model in cover and just roll the 5+ instead of the 4+. I know that you are so much more experienced than me and would never do such a thing. But if you figure in how many times you have missed that or how many times they got the same 5+ cover, you'll realize that the KFF is simply a waste of points, when your opponent has to wound/remove 20 times before the unit is no longer fearless. If planned right they will run out of shots long before you run out of models. I don't know why you would call that being a space marine - I'd like to see any space marine do what you can do with a Green Tide list.

Relying on tech or using it as a crutch sounds more like a space marine to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh Focus Fire, Yeah there's that roll a 6 and pick your target. That's only with characters or snipers and if they are wasting it to remove a Boy or two - I'm fine with that, it's why I brought along a unit of 30. 1 in 6 they wont shoot the closest model and so 1 in 6 they will give a KFF a purpose. That's like saying I wont assault because they have overwatch.

Just a word of advice. I play IG, and I regularly play against a player who plays green tide. You're underestimating the power of the KFF.
The KFF does two things:

1) Mitigates blast damage at no penalty, because the orks still get the cover save, no matter where they are, so it's stupid not to space them out. In any other army, spacing units out may put them out of cover and make them easy targets for my weapons, but not orks.

2)Allows his orkz to be mobile, and generally act reckless and charge down my throat with a massive green tide. this is the point of the army. Once you're in CC, the opponent's firepower is tied up or tarpitted, and they're going to have a bad time.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that some armies use armor, or have resilient gunlines of their own. 15 more boyz shots doesn't do much compared to the resilience a KFF offers. I garentee you that my guardsmen behind an ADL will outlast your 15 boys in a shooting fight. The points are better spent on the KFF to make sure the majority of your boyz make it into close combat. Once that happens, the game is pretty much over for me.

For the record, when I ran Green Tide, I ran it with Mad Dok and Ol' Zogwort. I ran a unit of 'ard boyz up front followed by 3-5 mobs of 30 boys behind it. As mentioned before, backed up by Lootas and Big Gunz (forgot about them).

I routinely was told this list was not internet approved because of Mad Dok's scalpel rule. I was told they would be kited all over the board. However, there was never any room to get behind by ard boyz because there were literally 100+ models.

I was told 'ard boyz were too expensive and a waste of points. However, they were notoriously difficult to kill and aborbed a TON of fire. They usually died in the end, but not until allowing all of my other orks to cross the board untouched and allowing them to do what they do best: KRUMP STUFF.

Zogwort was more of a thing to spice games up.

Again, I have been told how AWFUL this list was, but it won more often than it lost.

If you are making something work without internets approval run with it. Personally, I try to avoid cover because I do not want to be slowed down by it. I just take my casualties and keep moving forward.

You've got the complete wrong idea about focus firing- you described precision shots. With focus fire, any unit can choose only to allocate wounds to models which are completely out of cover.
The KFF stops this.

 Sleg wrote:
Oh Focus Fire, Yeah there's that roll a 6 and pick your target. That's only with characters or snipers and if they are wasting it to remove a Boy or two - I'm fine with that, it's why I brought along a unit of 30. 1 in 6 they wont shoot the closest model and so 1 in 6 they will give a KFF a purpose. That's like saying I wont assault because they have overwatch.

You might want to take a look at the bottom right corner of page 18.

Go ahead and hide your closest 4-5 models in terrain. I'll ignore them and kill the rest.

When the focus fire rule was brought up was that not the fact that you can pick to shoot at the models that are not in cover? Thats how I understand it. Would this pretty much negate the placing the "nearest in cover" stratetegy unless they were all in that cover?

I ask because I am looking to refine my green tide tactics and find the different points of view/strategies here interesting.

Cheers

edit, sorry was slow to post...

Ok Focus Fire, turns 4+ cover into 6+ armor, instead of 5+ all around. So a few of might have to take the Brunt of the attack, but only those that have no cover, if there are wounds left over, they are wasted, Which is just the peak of the wave.

I kept wondering why my opponent usually doesn't use that, then I remembered, they can't shoot the models they don't have LOS, so then they will shoot starting with the closest that they can see, normally it's 4+ cover, once they eliminate them, then they move on to the 5+ cover, then the few that are in front of the unit behind, giving them the intervening model cover. If they ignore cover, they wont focus fire. If they are taking a lot of shots, I can seen taking out the blocking models so they can shoot, with another unit, the Orks hiding behind. But if they are throwing 20 shots at them, do you really think they are going to use Focus Fire?

But you are right KFF is useful here, so giving up 15 more models made it all worthwhile for you. I can totally understand why you are set in your ways and why you don't even want to consider another way of running the Green Tide.

So I will say this, This Tactic is NOT for you. Currently it seems to be working for me and a workable Ork army list, that isn't Nob Bikers is very rare indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Green is Best! wrote:
I routinely was told this list was not internet approved because of Mad Dok's scalpel rule. I was told they would be kited all over the board. However, there was never any room to get behind by ard boyz because there were literally 100+ models.

Ok I'm trying to understand this sentence. you are Talking about "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" (p59 Ork Codex). This is where even if the unit is reduced to 2 (Mad Doc and a Boy) they are still fearless. He must move as fast as possible (this includes his entire unit) to get into Melee. It doesn't mean he will force his way through the 'Ard Boyz, if he is part of the 'Ard Boy squad, they can move and shoot as normal, but if they are 12" or closer to an enemy unit they must charge (taking Overwatch shots). It doesn't say he will run in the shooting phase, in fact it's the opposite, if you run you can't get into melee, so I usually say he will never run (but it doesn't say this either). Is this what you were trying to say?

First off even though it will cost a heck of a lot more, Mad Doc can give every model except Zogwort, Cybork (5+ invulnerability save) thus rendering a Big Mek in a Mob with no vehicles totally useless. But Mad Doc will make both the Big Mek and Warboss Cybork cost 5pts.

 Sleg wrote:


Currently it seems to be working for me and a workable Ork army list, that isn't Nob Bikers is very rare indeed.

I have to disagree with you on the latter part of this. I have never run Nobz on bikes and have done just fine without them.

I've found the best TAC Ork list in 6th to be a mixture of everything. I like a solid 3 blocks of 20 Shoota Boyz with a KFF as my base, then I add both ranged and alpha-strike options, mixing Lootas and Lobbas with Dakkajets, Deffkoptas, and Warbikes (plus either a Nob/Meganob squad or 20 Slugga Boyz in a Battlewagon).

The resulting force is both incredibly versatile and downright deadly if your opponent underestimates Orks.

I have to say that your list is NOT a Green Tide list. But if your eclectic Ork list is working for you, then you must not be playing against any decent opponents or they are taking crazy pills. Obviously, you are not facing too many drop pods, play against Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau, because even a half baked list from these should table you by the 3rd turn. Because a working Ork list only means you wont get tabled, winning usually isn't an option.
Even with Nob Bikers and not against a test army (so I'm not going to count 75% of the games I play), my win ratio is 4 losses to 1 win. which from what every ork player I know says is damn good for 6th edition.
Other than this army list (my new green tide doesn't count because it's being used to test armies). My Dread Mob, War Boss War, and Green Tide do not win at all. That is the reality of playing the Orks, even using IA 8 Dread Mob, 6th Edition has made it impossible to make a competitive army list.

Now, gloat all you want on losing a valuable HQ slot to an 85 point that in most games you could've had use cheaper and better tactics. Brow beat me all you want with how great your Orks are doing and that using the field does nothing to help your Orks. because they are so great because you can roll a 5 or 6 everytime. When I play I don't roll all that great, only 3 times in the many times did my SAG roll 12. Never has Gutsmek's Dakkacannon caused a wound. I've had my ADL and Quadgun taken over 9 times, so hat now I was being shot at by BS 4 with 100 points that I spent.

Warbikes are Great but 1 wounds makes them worth being shot at and caused to rout. Defcoptas can only be taken in units of 5, and killing at least 2 of them is almost laughable because now you have a 50/50 chance of them routing - I guess you beat those odds all the time. Lootas are a great target, but you don't have anything with any speed and punch to make up for losing them

 Sleg wrote:
I have to say that your list is NOT a Green Tide list. But if your eclectic Ork list is working for you, then you must not be playing against any decent opponents or they are taking crazy pills. Obviously, you are not facing too many drop pods, play against Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau, because even a half baked list from these should table you by the 3rd turn. Because a working Ork list only means you wont get tabled, winning usually isn't an option.

Winning is always an option, put some thought into your game. I've battled my way through drop pods (just speeds up a turn of the game by putting us closer together). I'm 2:0 against the local SW player. I have never played Tyranids, but may soon. I've played against the new Eldar, which were incredibly challenging, but once I got the transports down, I could turn the tide. Most of my games of both 5th and 6th have been against Tau.

 Sleg wrote:
Even with Nob Bikers and not against a test army (so I'm not going to count 75% of the games I play), my win ratio is 4 losses to 1 win. which from what every ork player I know says is damn good for 6th edition.
Other than this army list (my new green tide doesn't count because it's being used to test armies). My Dread Mob, War Boss War, and Green Tide do not win at all. That is the reality of playing the Orks, even using IA 8 Dread Mob, 6th Edition has made it impossible to make a competitive army list.

Play to the #1 specialty of Orks: We roll more dice.

Also, if you feel that Orks are a top tournament army, then you're playing the wrong game. Orks are meant to be fun, but also have a strong base from which a tactician can sculpt a masterpiece army. Orks don't rely on unbalanced units to win, they rely on synergy, with every unit fulfilling a role that helps another part of the army accomplish its role.

The Lootas blow up the Rhino so that the Shoota Boyz can mow them down and mop them up in assault. The Looted Wagon's Boomgun thins the horde of Gaunts so that the Slugga Boyz can hop out of a battlewagon and sweep them whilst the Warboss shows the Tervigon who da boss really is.

 Sleg wrote:
Now, gloat all you want on losing a valuable HQ slot to an 85 point that in most games you could've had use cheaper and better tactics. Brow beat me all you want with how great your Orks are doing and that using the field does nothing to help your Orks. because they are so great because you can roll a 5 or 6 everytime. When I play I don't roll all that great, only 3 times in the many times did my SAG roll 12. Never has Gutsmek's Dakkacannon caused a wound. I've had my ADL and Quadgun taken over 9 times, so hat now I was being shot at by BS 4 with 100 points that I spent.

I'll try and decode your statement here.

You shouldn't count on your SAG to roll a 12. You should count on it to be an anti-infantry threat. Rolling a 12 is a nice bonus to such an awesome gun (this bonus is balanced by the setback of rolling a 2).

If you aren't getting wounds, then you aren't picking the right targets. Don't waste S8 on AV14 unless you've got nothing else to shoot. Instead, hit that AV14 with a Power Klaw.

If you're running a Green Tide, why are you taking an ADL? There's your real points waste. Nothing should be sitting back there hiding when you need every boy to move forwards. Leave the anti-air to your Lootas/Kannons/Dakkajets.

I didn't lose an HQ slot. In all of my games I take a KFF Mek and either a Warboss or a SAG in lower games.
You are never going to make every 5+ cover save, but 5+ cover is a LOT better than 6+ armor.

Some math:

 Sleg wrote:

Warbikes are Great but 1 wounds makes them worth being shot at and caused to rout. Defcoptas can only be taken in units of 5, and killing at least 2 of them is almost laughable because now you have a 50/50 chance of them routing - I guess you beat those odds all the time. Lootas are a great target, but you don't have anything with any speed and punch to make up for losing them

Are you just throwing Warbikes into assault? They're overpriced but have wicked guns. Coddle them and maximize your shooting. Warbikes are another case of constant cover saves saving lives.

Why are you taking Deffkoptas in units of 5? Try 2-3 with Rokkits and scout them. They can deliver Biker Warbosses to the enemy, wreck light tanks/infantry (looking at you, devastators), and tie up what you don't want shooting (Crisis Suits, Fire Warriors, Long Fangs). If the enemy is sinking their heavy weapons into bikes or koptas, then they're not shooting your Battlewagons or Trukks.

Where are you putting your Lootas that they're being auto-targetted. Put them in the back where your opponent has to spend their best large blasts to get them. If they're focusing on the rear, then your Boyz up front can do the damage. If they're focusing on the Boyz up front (which will be aided in survival by the KFF), then your Lootas are free to blast away.

I don't have anything with speed to make up for losing them? What about the Deffkoptas, Warbikes, Dakkajet and Battlewagon, which are obviously both fast and pack a punch.

 Sleg wrote:
Ok Focus Fire, turns 4+ cover into 6+ armor, instead of 5+ all around. So a few of might have to take the Brunt of the attack, but only those that have no cover, if there are wounds left over, they are wasted, Which is just the peak of the wave.

Considering that most shooting units cause 4-5 wounds on average, rarely any of those wounds are wasted. If they have a lot more shots than that, they will simply kill your 4+ cover models and then go on killing those without cover saves.

I kept wondering why my opponent usually doesn't use that, then I remembered, they can't shoot the models they don't have LOS, so then they will shoot starting with the closest that they can see, normally it's 4+ cover, once they eliminate them, then they move on to the 5+ cover, then the few that are in front of the unit behind, giving them the intervening model cover. If they ignore cover, they wont focus fire. If they are taking a lot of shots, I can seen taking out the blocking models so they can shoot, with another unit, the Orks hiding behind. But if they are throwing 20 shots at them, do you really think they are going to use Focus Fire?

20 shots fired by one of the most common infantry weapons in the game, the bolter, would result in 13.3 hits and 6.66 wounds. If you allow cover from ruins, that's 3.33 wounds taken. As long as at least four orks are in plain sight, focus fire is better. Most likely your opponent never thought about this. All my opponents are highly competitive players, they never pass up a chance like this.

But you are right KFF is useful here, so giving up 15 more models made it all worthwhile for you. I can totally understand why you are set in your ways and why you don't even want to consider another way of running the Green Tide.

Listen, if you don't like other people opinions, don't post on forums, places for discussion per definition. I have shown you the value of a KFF and it's pretty easy to mathhammer when it starts being better than 15 boyz. Just field a KFF and take note whenever it causes a successful safe. If you come up with numbers greater than 15, the KFF was better. If you don't, drop the KFF. I've done this a couple of games in 6th and it came it usually added up to a lot more than 15.

So I will say this, This Tactic is NOT for you. Currently it seems to be working for me and a workable Ork army list, that isn't Nob Bikers is very rare indeed.

"It works for me against my opponents" is nice. Still not advice you should be handing out unless a new ork player is joining your gaming group. Half the time I am playing, I walk into a GW store, ask the manager if someone is waiting to play and then play a person I never met before and sometimes never play again. "My" strategies tend to work quite well against those opponents, if I'm playing a competitive army, I'm winning or at least drawing those game a lot more often than not. Even if your strategy works well for you, that doesn't mean it couldn't better. If you are not facing anti-horde units and you can simply drown your opponent in troops, all the power to you. However, don't be surprised if get you green but handed if one of your chaps bought a new model or an allied detachment which can actually handle such a one-dimensional army.
Always remember, you are supposed to have fun playing the game, but from what I can tell - despite what half the world claims - every single player is having fun when winning. This is a tactics forum, and meant to help people win the game. No single unit in the entire WH40k ruleset is invincible and can tackle everything thrown at them, not paldins, not nob bikerz, not boyz. If you build an army out of single kind of unit, no matter how awesome that unit is, it will have a massive weakness. For boyz it's close combat experts with large amount of attacks (striking scorpions, khorne berzerkers), large blasts, templates, fliers and dedicated. I'm telling you, that you will be winning more games if you bring stuff to mitigate those weaknesses. If you insist that you are already winning enough games, we have nothing to talk about.

First off even though it will cost a heck of a lot more, Mad Doc can give every model except Zogwort, Cybork (5+ invulnerability save) thus rendering a Big Mek in a Mob with no vehicles totally useless. But Mad Doc will make both the Big Mek and Warboss Cybork cost 5pts.

Grotznik can only cybork non-unique non-vehicle units, and it's not free, but rather costs 5 points per model. So on your boyz mob you are paying 150 points just to cybork them, about twice as much as getting a big mek with KFF, who can protect multiple mobs at once.

The problem about Grotznik is that he may become a liability in certain situations. He is not a terrible model, but more on par with the SAG or tankbustaz - just slightly worse than the choices he is competing with.

 Sleg wrote:
I have to say that your list is NOT a Green Tide list. But if your eclectic Ork list is working for you, then you must not be playing against any decent opponents or they are taking crazy pills. Obviously, you are not facing too many drop pods, play against Space Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar or Tau, because even a half baked list from these should table you by the 3rd turn. Because a working Ork list only means you wont get tabled, winning usually isn't an option.

Even with Nob Bikers and not against a test army (so I'm not going to count 75% of the games I play), my win ratio is 4 losses to 1 win. which from what every ork player I know says is damn good for 6th edition.
Other than this army list (my new green tide doesn't count because it's being used to test armies). My Dread Mob, War Boss War, and Green Tide do not win at all. That is the reality of playing the Orks, even using IA 8 Dread Mob, 6th Edition has made it impossible to make a competitive army list.

Huh? If you are getting tabled by third turn and have such a huge loss ratio, maybe you aren't a decent player? Ever thought about that? Since 6th my win ratio has gone up, not down.

While his list is probably not perfect, it's lot better than going boyz all the way. It's wasting points on the battlewagon and bikers, but outside of that it bring the most important feat: having answers to everything.

Now, gloat all you want on losing a valuable HQ slot to an 85 point that in most games you could've had use cheaper and better tactics. Brow beat me all you want with how great your Orks are doing and that using the field does nothing to help your Orks. because they are so great because you can roll a 5 or 6 everytime. When I play I don't roll all that great, only 3 times in the many times did my SAG roll 12. Never has Gutsmek's Dakkacannon caused a wound. I've had my ADL and Quadgun taken over 9 times, so hat now I was being shot at by BS 4 with 100 points that I spent.

Hey, my SAG has never rolled 12 a single time so far. It still killed more than ten thousand points worth of terminators, space marines and eldar in its games. It's a freakin' 60" AP2 large blast, screw the mishap table.

Warbikes are Great but 1 wounds makes them worth being shot at and caused to rout.

Agree, ignore cover stuff also kills them by the droves.

Defcoptas can only be taken in units of 5, and killing at least 2 of them is almost laughable because now you have a 50/50 chance of them routing - I guess you beat those odds all the time. Lootas are a great target, but you don't have anything with any speed and punch to make up for losing them

They can also be taken in units of one, ignoring the leadership value completely and forcing your opponent to overcommit to stop a single model. Outside of that 2W T5 models with 5+ cover save aren't as easy to remove as you make the out to be.
Also a quick help on statistics: The average chance of rolling 7 or lower is about 60%, so yeah, you're unlucky.

Also everything Dr. What said, besides one thing: Orks are not a tournament army right now because we are lacking the tools to handle some popular strategies (read: fliers). When the new codex drops I fully expect orks to be back in tournament business like they were in 5th. Both kan wall and battlewagons were awesome armies at their respective point levels.

all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.

If your game has improved and you are using units such as Defkoptas, Trukks, or any unit that doesn't roll more dice - there is something seriously wrong with not having plenty of units with Big Shootas, Defgun, and Dakkaguns. You should play games where you don't go first, Drop Pods and Mysetic Spores should rip apart your gunline. I would never take a slugga unit or a grot unit that isn't just hidig behind a wall. Battlewagon usually don't make use of the Def Rolla or even any weapons you might attach, Normally they are just in the way. Green Tide players, if you never bottlenecked your unit, or forced them to travel through difficult terrain and just watched them tear through them, then you do not have a green tide list. A workable force list is one that doesn't get tabled against a real competitive force.

When 6th edition came out, the UK did a 3 day event, close to 40 Ork players entered. No one placed in the top 10. In the USA, with the exception of most of the Ork players switching to a different army, Orks placed dead last, right behind Dark Eldar.

The average roll on a 7 is less than 60% and if you a normally saving, then you are again cheating and it has nothing to do with Luck.

The Ork codex is extremely outdated and the people you are playing against must be a lot nicer than my group, because they are letting you win.

 Sleg wrote:
all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.

I don't think my green tide has ever been tabled. Granted, I have been beaten down to a point where I conceded defeat, but there are always models on the table.

This speaks nothing of my tactical prowess, this is simple math that they cannot roll enough dice to kill all my orks off.

So you're basically saying that you're the pinnacle of ork gaming and anyone better than you is "either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating."

Nothing left to do here *lauches rokkit pack into a Valkyrie's engine*

I'm not gonna lie, orks right now are in a bad spot. Green tide especially so.

The meta has shifted from utilizing AP3 or better weapons with fewer shots (plasma) to using lots of shots that just rely upon failed armored saves.

This is rough on orks, who can be evaporated by such fire.

Orks still have some good tools, like mega nobs, looats and battlewagons. The best way to play orks today is to utilize those tools and focus less on the green tide as your source of victory.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I'm not gonna lie, orks right now are in a bad spot. Green tide especially so.

The meta has shifted from utilizing AP3 or better weapons with fewer shots (plasma) to using lots of shots that just rely upon failed armored saves.

I never thought of it from this perspective. I haven't really run orks in 6th, so I never factored this in. Back in 5th, I used to giggle and laugh when people shot meltas and lascannons into my 6 point orks. But, with the changing of the game, volume of fire has gone up significantly. This would definitely not help out by poor ork boyz.

Even still, at 2000 points, I usually had about 120-150 boyz alone. That is still a TON of orks to kill off. Its just so time consuming and boring for the first few turns that I just don't enjoy playing that style anymore.

With that being said, if I was going to run green tide again, I would get some large bases and model 3 orks per base. I would keep them in the middle for ease of movement. By the time this ever becomes an issue, you should have plenty of dead orks to use in order to swap out. This would make your movement phase go so much smoother while still keeping you relatively spaced out.

warbikes have 2 wounds fyi

If you're playing orks and have never been tabled, you brought enough boys for the Tide! At 1500 points I'm over 100 models. 114 to be exact.

Deff koptas work best at 1-4 models. That way even if you fail a morale and run, you can still recover at full LD, and 7 is way better than 2.

bikers are not part of a tide army, to many points for to few models. you can easily put 500 points into 10 models where each loss hurts.

the tournament army is questionable, and really depends on your area. if you have lots of tau players, just stay home. I avoid timed events because I'm a slow player to start with. But I will go for "league" type tournaments. Same thing as a 1 day tourny, just spread out over 6 weeks and I can take 3 hours to finish my game

We might have the oldest codex, but we still put up a great fight. WAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHH!!!

For my Green Tide army, I don't take Bikes or Defcoptas, because 1 is worth almost 5 Ork Boyz.
My Original Green Tide, had Nobs and PK - I found that I would rather have 5 more boyz. It even sported the KFF, That list has been tabled and didn't have the needed punch a Warboss brings, the new list actually pulled out a win and having the front unit get into Melee is awesome. I know it would be better if they were sluggas, but if a unit is partially caught in difficult terrain, they need to be the shooting unit, while another unit makes its way to the front instead - SO I still take only Shootas.

Why would I put a unit in melee with a unit they can't harm and they will lose numbers every turn? 4 reasons.1. They tie up their powerful units. 2. They give intervening cover to units behind. 3, If my warboss and Nob unit is within 2" they will attack and not be overwatched, or (4) attacked because they aren't the closest model. This is an evil maneuver and so far it's working very well. I pull points from everywhere, especially my gunline, for example if It was a choice between taking the ADL or filling out a unit of Ork Boyz, I would fill out the Ork Boyz, taking out toys such as Dakkajets, Battlewagons, or Defkoptas - I go with numbers numbers numbers.

I would consider conceding as being tabled, because unless it's a tounie, it doesn't matter. During a Tournie, your opponent will gain all points (except First Blood) possible. You can only have the few points you earned (But conceding during a Tournie used to mean you resigned from the entire Tournie, so points no longer matter).

I only concede games when, it's obvious that I have already lost and it's late and I have to get up early the next morning for work. I have walked away from tables, when I do not agree with the house rules people play with.

I know it doesn't seem like it, but time is important when I field a Green Tide list. I usually start pre-deploying my boyz, even if I do not go first. I've gotten pretty good as fast moving them once I have an idea how far 6" is - but it still takes time. most times I bring a buddy to roll dice, while I start moving units during my opponents assault phase.

I would never say Orks can't put up a fight and even as old as their codex is they are by far the most fun to play. Don't forget Orks are the only figures that are always smiling. I just have to put a stop to "my ork list always wins" - uh no it doesn't and because Orks have a diverse list, the more eclectic you create the list, the less likely you are going to see any effectiveness out of them. Like I said before, when I had the KFF, I didn't even consider these things, even without trying you are giving up probably better cover rolls because that 5+ becomes so important. For ork players this is a tactic that should never be overlooked, for me I had to take it out to actually see it in action. But if you think they will implement Focus Fire, they will do that anyway, and if more figures would get 5+ cover, then it would be worth it for your opponent to focus fire, when you have multiple cover saves, they can only focus on the ones without (you'll probably still get your 6+ armor) but if they throw a lot of shots, they can only hit those models, yeah 20 shots just took out 3 orkboyz (which could still survive but it's the max number of figures they can shoot, instead of the 10 5+ saves you need to make, which means on average 6 are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe the problem is lack of understand what a Green Tide is. Here's my 1500, 160 Ork Tidal Wave, which is almost twice as large as my Original 83 model Tide.
HQ
110 Warboss (Cybork, PK, Attack Squig)
123 Big Mek (SAG, Burna, Ammo Runt, Bosspole)

Troop
300 10 Nobs (Painboy, 10 Cybork, Orderly, Waaagh Banner!, Bosspole)
4x195 30 Ork Boyz (Shootas, 3 Big Shootas)
135 20 Ork Boyz (Nob, Shootas, 2 Big Shootas)

Heavy Support
47 Big Gunz (Kannon, 3 Ammo Runt, 6 Extra Crew)

I play a Ork green tide but I spend points on thrakka, burnas, trukks to carry boys, and looted wagons w skorchas to carry earlier burnas. I find they are very competive, I don't always win but I have a decent ratio, plus a KFF Mek makes my transports survive long enough to get within 18 in by turn two. I have tabled my opponents with the quick tide. Or obliterated when they take out trukks.

 Jidmah wrote:
So you're basically saying that you're the pinnacle of ork gaming and anyone better than you is "either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating."

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I have use a Tactic that seems to be working amazing and I wanted to share it. I was wondering if other Ork players have tried this. I wasn't expected resistance to such an extent that player will put forth that Ork wins equals better players. The Truth is I consider myself very experienced with playing Orks, I have played Orks since Warhammer's creation. I was one of the original American play testers of this game. I have only played Orks. I have probably lost more games than most people on here have played. As far as people better than me - I no longer enter Tournaments and I know of probably 100 players that are "better" than me and they lose more than they win and aren't all Ork players.
When you think about just players in a Tournament, almost all of them will have to lose at least once. So presenting that if winning equals experienced player. I will always say no way, if you play a list all the time that has never lost (especially Orks) then there has to be a reason for it, you know the answer. But I will say, this tactic of using your battlefield as an advantage instead of a hindrance because you are relying on your KFF too much - will not win the game, but it might change your thinking on how to run a Green Tide List - which by what you've said you do not do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drakka77 wrote:
I play a Ork green tide but I spend points on thrakka, burnas, trukks to carry boys, and looted wagons w skorchas to carry earlier burnas. I find they are very competive, I don't always win but I have a decent ratio, plus a KFF Mek makes my transports survive long enough to get within 18 in by turn two. I have tabled my opponents with the quick tide. Or obliterated when they take out trukks.

Yeah, I have tried Trukks and Looted Wagons a bunch and for me it always ends in disaster. It's been so bad that once I had to roll 8 dice on single ramshackle. It was almost funny when I rolled 5 ones. Giving up First Blood and my 6 Boyz that were left,you got fleed. KFF for vehicles, I will never argue against. Putting Thraka with Nobs makes them slow and purposeful and Thraka will never benefit from the Feel No Pain. He is much better with 9 Meganobs and a Battlewagon with a defrolla.
The Looted Wagon is only slightly better than a Trukk and 'Don't Press Dat" makes it an expensive mistake for me. You can put the same weapons on a Battlewagon and with a 14 Front and 12 side, it puts the Looted wagon to shame.
I love Burnas, but in the Looted Wagon, they are just asking to be removed and your opponent should relieve you of them and the looted wagon, before they will be able to cause any trouble.
Last, this is a great Ork List, but it doesn't seem like a geen tide. I adore Thraka, but he is taking away from your actual tide. If you don't mind me asking, how many figures are you tiding with here?

In a 2000 pt army I have 5 groups of 11 boys lead by a nob, 3 groups of 5 burnas led by a Mek, and Thrakka leading a Nob squad of about 10. Plus a big Mek with a KFF. ( I don't have any other units that are orks besides this except for a few more boys) All nobs have a PK and all groups are in a transport. Using line of sight I stay out of it till round two rush twelve inches then off load six inches the waaagh the garenteed 12 more inches.

I hope the tide works!!!! I'm taking it to a tourney. W Lootas and Dakka jet.

Remember a Green Tide, relies almost exclusively on taking numbers, if you are fielding less than 80 Orks for a 1500 point game, you do not have a green tide army and the numbers will not benefit you. Because Bikes and other toys are expensive they will cut down your numbers. If you take these, you should focus away from green tide and build your army around your focus. For example, if you take Bikes, you should speed freak your list instead. This will help you adapt to situations better.

 Sleg wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So you're basically saying that you're the pinnacle of ork gaming and anyone better than you is "either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating."

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I have use a Tactic that seems to be working amazing and I wanted to share it. I was wondering if other Ork players have tried this.

Yes, you said exactly that. I win or draw my games more often than not if I want to, against random people I don't know, against my friends which have highly competitive lists and tend to list tailor especially against orks, local store "champions" and veterans. I never get tabled unless running an experimental list or suffering a streak of really bad dice(ever immobilized four battlewagons on turn one? That's rolling 8 's in a row). You are saying I'm lying or cheating. What else is there to discuss? You don't want advice, I'm not forcing it on you.
I'm just giving everyone else the advice to not run a sole one-dimensional list which is guaranteed to fail against at least two of the armies you will see at every grand tourney.

I wasn't expected resistance to such an extent that player will put forth that Ork wins equals better players.

Actually, you were the first one to bring that up. You are bringing no arguments at all besides "it works for me", "you are wrong" and personal attacks, while at the same time, you are putting forth that you have a terrible win/loss record and blame it all on the ork codex. Don't you see the problem in that? Advertising a list which is losing four out of five time as "working"?

The Truth is I consider myself very experienced with playing Orks, I have played Orks since Warhammer's creation. I was one of the original American play testers of this game. I have only played Orks. I have probably lost more games than most people on here have played. As far as people better than me - I no longer enter Tournaments and I know of probably 100 players that are "better" than me and they lose more than they win and aren't all Ork players.

"There's no fool like an old fool." You have just as much experience playing in 6th than anyone here. The guy who brought me to the game is playing orks ever since he bought gorka morka and basically is living in one of our FLGS - and he is probably the worst player I know. Every single one of his couple hundred orks looks better than most minis GW shows on their homepage though. When reading tournament reports on various 40k blogs looking at the success of my local ork players, orks usually place somewhere in upper midfield. I highly doubt that you actually know 100 ork players (especially since you suddenly came to know 60 since your last post) - I couldn't even name 40 competitive ork players, including people here on dakka. I couldn't name 40 players of any army. Not to mention pretty much anyone trying to field his old kan wall at the beginning of 6th pretty much got butchered, so even a realistic 10 players ending at bottom of a tournament isn't much of a surprise.

When you think about just players in a Tournament, almost all of them will have to lose at least once. So presenting that if winning equals experienced player. I will always say no way, if you play a list all the time that has never lost (especially Orks) then there has to be a reason for it, you know the answer.

I never said that I never lose. I just said that I lose less games than I win. If I go 3-1-1 at a tourney, I win more than I lose and probably place high enough to get a free box of boyz. I already agreed with you that orks are not a tournament winning army anymore, losing 80% of your games is not a codex issue.

But I will say, this tactic of using your battlefield as an advantage instead of a hindrance because you are relying on your KFF too much - will not win the game, but it might change your thinking on how to run a Green Tide List - which by what you've said you do not do.

Considering you didn't know what focus fire is before this thread, you can most like attribute that tactic's success to your opponents not knowing either. I experimented with dropping the KFF a lot during the beginning of 6th (dual warpheads, MA warbosses, replacing all nobz with minimal warboss, etc) because the mandatory 85 point tax annoys me. Whenever I did that, I started losing more games. Outside of tourneys with pre-setup tables you get an average of 12 terrain pieces on the table, if your opponent is playing competitively he will drop big ruins on your table edge of your table center or big, non-LoS blocking terrain right in the middle of the board, and distributes half of any other useful terrain along the table edges. This often leaves with as little as two or three terrain pieces to actually hide your green tide behind. Focus fire suddenly is a big problem, even if you get cinematic steel trees with 3+ cover. Now consider that two out of three deployments allow gunlines to deploy out of reach for turn two or three assaults, making you walk as much as 32" with a whooping three pieces of terrain. How are you hiding 120-160 orks behind that? You don't. It's physically impossible.

Edit: my spelling sucks

Jidmah, I never attacked you. I was presenting a new way to run Green Tide - I asked if others have done this. You obviously did not, but processed to continue to say that you can't run a green tide without a KFF. That's NOT why I posted this thread. I put it up because I ran orks in 2 games without a KFF - because it was the only way I could do this was without the use of a KFF.
Also read the quote you quoted me, it's not 100 ork players, because most aren't ork players. At your store you have some dominating Ork players, I get that. It doesn't change the fact that Ork are NOT competitive in 6th.
And because I mistake Focus Fire for something else doesn't mean I don't know what it was.
Thank you for your imput about Green Tide List, but you don't have any problems using a Big Mek KFF and do not want to try something different - I understand that. I would really like to hear from those players that do.

 Sleg wrote:
all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.

Yes, you really did say either he was lying or a cheater, or that his opponents don't know what they're doing.
Knowing Jidmah, none of those can be true.

Thanks rigeld

I am starting to think my posts only reach him by traveling through the warp and getting mutated in the process. He actually accused me of never having tried his suggestion, after thoroughly describing how I did try it and detailing why it failed.

Well, as ork players, why would you get along? Aren't we supposed to fight amongst ourselves until something better and more xeno comes along?

 Green is Best! wrote:
Well, as ork players, why would you get along? Aren't we supposed to fight amongst ourselves until something better and more xeno comes along?

I think that's exactly what's going on. but yes I will stand by it's one of 3 things, If you are not lying or cheating about how Super-dupper your Orks are in 6th edition - It has to be who you are playing. though 5 games really doesn't give much of a sense of how well your force list is, when you break 50 games with a list and still states that you are winning or tie with your games 4 out of 5 games, that's when I'll call shenanigans. And your one loss being because you rolled 8 1's, not because they just devastated your force, doesn't say much for your opponents. A better way would be they just out rolled me, I've rolled 5 1's on 8 dice on a single ramshackle - I wouldn't say it cost me the game. The Necron Player was the reason I lost the game, he rolled better and had a much better list.
If you stated that you ran a few green tide list without a KFF and you lost your test games. I'm sorry I missed that post, because you've only stated that you tend to do poorer with your test armies and obviously much better with your ready army.

For me I usually do better when someone is testing out their stuff. Orks being versatile allows other players to still play Orks but play totally different list, I have over 35 different ork list that I choose from. I only play friendly games so winning is rarely the actual goal, it's testing out things or having fun goofing around throwing a bunch of dice. But I do know that its hard to believe that I know over a hundred players and have played 40k in 9 countries, and even had articles written about me and playing orks. And here's the Old Fool saying something that you have already tested and dismissed because you are such a great player. But it's true and the Orks now are but a shadow of what they used to be. No Plasma, unless you count the KMB. The SAG with only 7 crazy rolls, instead of 36. I know that your skill with 6th has Blasted me for being narrow minded and I have to admitted I haven't once seen you write that Green Tide always gets caught in Terrain and I always use Terrain cover before using the 5+ cover from the KFF.
No you have actually called me a fool, stated that because I have lost games with the 4th edition Ork Codex, that I'm not doing it right. That I can't run a Green Tide without a KFF, because of two words: Focus Fire. And dismissed all of the rational arguments I have present in contrary to it. Then again you stated that my arguments are closed minded and limited, when you have been very clear that you do not use a Green Tide List without a Big Mek KFF and it would not even be worth thinking about.

Just remember I still have never attacked you, but you have been fairly blatant with your attacks directed at me as a person, instead of the Tactic of moving through Terrain and using it as an advantage.

I found KFF to be a waste of an HQ slot/points...

much better off with a couple warbosses outflanking with snikrot, and ahuge tide of orks coming up behind screening grots/more orks. Or somthing else anyways

I have 0 issues covering all vantage points to the units behind with a mob of 30 orks or grots (or even a units of bikes, which is smaller in #) for me, negating focus fire because all the models are behind intervening models, is easy as pie....

its rolling the 5/6's i need for run moves to get into CC on turn 3 thats the pain in the butt.

 Sleg wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
Well, as ork players, why would you get along? Aren't we supposed to fight amongst ourselves until something better and more xeno comes along?

I think that's exactly what's going on. but yes I will stand by it's one of 3 things, If you are not lying or cheating about how Super-dupper your Orks are in 6th edition - It has to be who you are playing.

Right, you are actually reinforcing that Jidmah is either a liar, a cheater, or a noobcrusher.
That's the right way to make friends and influence people.

instead of the Tactic of moving through Terrain and using it as an advantage.

That's what you've been rambling about? Moving through terrain is an advantage?
I'll be completely honest - your posting style is pretty damn illegible to me so forgive me if it's been this obvious all along...
If you're claiming that this "tactic" is some amazing thing that is letting you in 1/5 games... it's probably not Jidmah doing the noobcrushing.

Seriously, this is not some amazing revelation. It's like saying "Cover is good!". KFF just allows you to bring your cover with you.

Wow, that's a crazy thought of a Huge Building, plopped down in the middle of the board and Terrain on both sides Basically Bottlenecking your Orks or forcing them to run through the building or Trees and you might have a unit or 2 not getting the cover, because you are moving 6" and firing your big shootas, instead of just running them. the Slow down will cause 1 or 2 round loss before the Shootas fire.

How about this tactic for your opponent, that instead of spreading their units out, they deploy them all on one side and just devastate your flank, forcing you to move everything you have to one side of the board.

KFF saves 1/3 of wounds. which means that 6 wounds should remove 4 boyz on average. This doesn't account for Barrage, Ignores Cover, or invulnerable only saves.

If a single unit that can cause an average of 6 wounds per round against a single Ork Boyz unit, will remove 12 Boyz before overwatch and assault. (If they are in a Trukk, 1st turn they will cause the Trukk to ramshackle with 2 dice -taking the lowest) and then cause a LD roll every turn, until the unit routs or is gone. You still have your KFF, hopefully.

18 boys will get overwatched, 2 removed and then assault (No KFF save in melee). Unless you opponent who should charge them first (unless you do something crazy like go to ground in the shooting phase - no bonus to KFF cover - I suspect no one will do this), then if you still have your big shootas, that's 39 shots, 7 wound rolls, 5 saves. 1 model removed. Usually INT is about a 4 for your opponent. It's 3 for your boyz. Hammer strike - takes out 3 and their attack based on 8 in the units, takes out 9 boyz. Orks assault and get very lucky and remove 2 out of 7. the 6 left roll LD 5 or lower (unless you have a nob and it's 7 or lower). Lets say they stay for the Orks turn. Boyz can't shoot into melee, but they will assault them 5 in BTB and 11. You opponent dedicates 4 wounds to the 6 and the rest to the large boyz. Law of averages for the Boyz they will fail the LD and make the Bosspole re-roll bring their numbers to 2. But they only remove 2 from the 3nd unit of Orks. It could go like this for many rounds, in the end the Orks numbers should squeak them by, But once they remove that unit, they will get torn apart.

It's how it should work, but your opponent should be cleaver and remove one side of boyz, while causing the rest of the force to spend yet another turn (total of 4) trying to get into range. 4 Defkoptas (yes, I was wrong they have 2 wounds), all you need to do is take out one, 57% chance of making the morale save. At least with 5 they need to remove 2. They shoot like crap, missing half the time and then 50/50 they cause a wound.
Separate units (3 of them) become prey to All space marines, Tyranids, Tau, and Eldar.. If they shoot and only remove 1, There's the 2 others. Another will get removed by overwatch and the last one will be gone in assault, unlikely doing any damage with a 2 int, 1 with Buzzsaw. Might as well just take Bikes.

These examples are just par for the course - you don't need to roll badly in fact it's based on average rolling and when you throw a lot of dice, you tend to fall always right down the middle. So even against an so-so list from any other army. The Ork player must roll exceptionally well, your opponent rolls exceptionally badly, or both in order to triumph. But your average game should end with a loss. If you play exceptional players like you stated, your wins could be a 1 and your losses should be the rest, extremely rare that you'll tie out of 5 games.

rigeld2 wrote:

That's what you've been rambling about? Moving through terrain is an advantage?
I'll be completely honest - your posting style is pretty damn illegible to me so forgive me if it's been this obvious all along...
If you're claiming that this "tactic" is some amazing thing that is letting you in 1/5 games... it's probably not Jidmah doing the noobcrushing.
Seriously, this is not some amazing revelation. It's like saying "Cover is good!". KFF just allows you to bring your cover with you.

I'm sorry that I'm an illegible poster. But you are commenting on responses, as with all post, I'd like to direct your attention to the very first one.
saying it's just "cover is good" and we should use it, is simplifying the tactic, which is to move your Orks to gain intervening cover, without bottlenecking them into a kill zone and Brining more Orks, instead of taking 'toys', that usually do nothing to improve the effectiveness of the Green Tide. Yes, KFF brings your cover with you and I myself have just rolled the 5+ cover, instead of the 4+. With a KFF, the unit will never goto ground for cover if they are out in the open, because the KFF will not provide 4+ cover.

As far as making friends, unimportant. How the hell do we call each other friends? most responses are unfiltered words - I try to keep it friendly, but I do not like being dismissed because someone thinks I do not know how to play (which is probably true, but that's not part of the thread). I adore other peoples opinions and I always want to know why they have their opinion? I think it's funny that I'm called closed minded and don't like another opinion because there is no "why". I find a lot of post directed at me instead of the issue, I dislike players that use wins to mean they are better when they have played a total of 5 or 6 actual games. I will be the first to say I'm not an expert, but playing 1 game and This tactic failed, doesn't usually qualify as experience. I have won hundreds of games (not in 6th) and lost probably more (not in 6th). I would not qualify as a Nobcrusher. Then again the top 10 players in the US would plainly say they have lost more than they won, because this is a 1 on 1 game, someone has to lose for a winner. Even if you are not playing Orks.

So thank you for chiming in and coming to Jidmah's defence - it certainly looks like he needed the affirmation to delete previous post or edit them so he can be right. Personally, I'm just here to talk about the game. If you can't understand my post, oh well. If you ask, I'll try to do better at explaining it or simplifying it like I did for Jidmah. If I said something wrong, like DefKoptas having 1 wound instead of 2 or put the wrong definition to things like Focus Fire, I appreciate the correction.

If you're going Green Tide you aren't going to ground unless the unit is almost dead.

If you're just here for the game, what's the purpose with calling someone a cheater or liar?

I never called them a cheater or a liar. They made the claim that since I usually don't win with the Orks, there must be something wrong with my list. I looked at their eclectic list and realize that most other armies, should table them 3rd turn. They came back and said that they always win (later they stated that their win ratio was 3wins, 1 tie, 1 loss).
and again said that was the proof that my way doesn't work was that I usually lose. I was an inexperienced player and if II were to take a Green Tide I had to take a KFF for support, because there was no way I would get cover. I presented both the UK and USA statics on the Orks in 6th edition.

Again they said I must not be playing right, because at their local store with very experienced players, they still beat them all the time.

So there had to be 1 of 3 things going on. They are lying (because in their mind if they didn't win, their side of the argument would be wrong). The People they play with do not know how to use their army list (but they are experienced players) or they are cheating (Some people cheat without knowing it and some cheat because they have to win at all cost).

After he stated it was only 5 games and the reason he took a loss was because he rolled 8 1's.

Again, I never called him a cheater or a liar. I wasn't there when he won his 3 games. I can't confirm anything. He could have played 4 games and everything was coming up 6's. The people he was playing could have had the worst rolls. It's unlikely to happen more than once, and impossible to happen 4 out of 5 games. So there has to be something going on. I care only for the fact that his wins, makes my tactic wrong. If his wins didn't, I personally wouldn't care what he does in his games.

 Sleg wrote:
all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.

Sleg wrote:I never called them a cheater or a liar.

Really?

Regardless, instead of insulting another player and instantly doubting their integrity... How about you treat him with respect?
If you have an 80% loss percentage it's possible - just maybe - the problem isn't with the Ork codex.

 Sleg wrote:


For me I usually do better when someone is testing out their stuff. Orks being versatile allows other players to still play Orks but play totally different list, I have over 35 different ork list that I choose from. I only play friendly games so winning is rarely the actual goal, it's testing out things or having fun goofing around throwing a bunch of dice.

(unless you do something crazy like go to ground in the shooting phase - no bonus to KFF cover - I suspect no one will do this)

But your average game should end with a loss

35 lists? Even in the best of days in 5th, there were really only 3 lists. Even if you go for list tailoring you shouldn't need more than 10 lists ever. not that we really have any tailoring options.

And yes going 2 ground if you're 10 models or less does improve the KFF save. just like the stealth & shroud from night fighting improves the KFF save. The KFF is a cover save, anything that improves cover saves, improves KFF saves.

As for the win/loss records, the game has a rock/paper/scissors element to it.
Orks are the rock to the marines scissors, and Tau is our paper. so you can have 75%+ win records, Some are probably even at 90%+ with orks. That doesn't make them cheaters or playing against noobs, it just means they've won more than lost. And if you lose 80% of your games, that doesn't make your opponents cheaters, it just means they know how to pick a list to deal with orks and how to play that list strategically. Trying to read anything more into a win/loss record is just pure speculation. You probably have a list that could win 80% of it's games, but you'd never know you had a strong list as the other 34 dilute your record. Overall records really don't tell you anything, but if you really want to track a w/l record, track each list individually and by race played and the actual numbers. ie:

List 1:
ork vs chaos record 6-0-0
orks vs nids 2-2-2
orks vs tau 1-10
(made up numbers, I play for fun and have no actual data for a proper w/l ration.) The more information you track though, the better you can tailor your lists for what works and what doesn't. so you really can't make blanket statements like you did where you claim your average game should be a loss. my average games tend to go, against marines, necron & guard (win) against nids&tau (lose)

And koptas are worth their points in gold, they come on behind your enemies lines, so they can at a minimum get a side shot in, and sometimes a rear armor shot. Second, 1in6 missions they're scoring, in 5 they're denial units, that can move 12 and turbo boost 24 to contest objects and occasionally claim them. And against guard and eldar and other S3 T3 units, you can assault them with a single kopta and wipe out their unit. Charge, stay locked in combat so you can't be shot, hit and run 33% after your opponents assault phase to cause more problems elsewhere. At a minimum they come on the table and spook your opponent, he can't ignore koptas sitting in his lines and any shots he takes against them, he's not at shooting boys so they help more boys get across the table. The number of koptas is optional, but I suggest 4, sure you test after 1 loss instead of 2. But when your down to your last kopta, if you started with 4 it's a full LD, instead of And if you really like biker lists nothing spooks an opponent more than putting a biker boss in with the koptas on his flank.

Bah, you've got so many rules wrong I don't even know where to start.

So I concede. A actually did lie, and I don't own any orks at all. I borrowed an AOBR set once and crushed a poor sailor, who had only one arm, one leg, one eye, one tooth and could only count to three by slipping him dices which roll ones all the time. That's 100% win chance for me in orks, so I'm undefeated and thus am entitled to belittle anyone who isn't, as I'm clearly the superior ork player. Oh, and for vacation I go seal clubbing in the Antarctica. The kind where you kill baby seals, not the kind where you get to hang out with bunch of drunk cute animals at a club.

leg wrote:
all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.



Sleg wrote:I never called them a cheater or a liar.


Really?

Regardless, instead of insulting another player and instantly doubting their integrity... How about you treat him with respect?

Lets let this one drop peeps, its a really interesting read and thread, dont want to get it locked or banned.
A polite PM apologising and explaining the wording would be much better no?

I would, but considering his tendency to misread everything, putting words in my mouth I never said and continuously calling me a liar and cheater, I'll rather ignore him all together.

There is absolutely no point in trying to have a constructive discussion with someone who is quite obviously not able to do so.

I just hope no one believes the nonsense he is spouting and is unnecessarily losing games because this.

So thank you for chiming in and coming to Jidmah's defence - it certainly looks like he needed the affirmation to delete previous post or edit them so he can be right.

This is a blatant lie. I am terrible at spelling (funnily enough same type of spelling errors in both languages), and thus often edit my posts in order to increase readability.

 Ratius wrote:

leg wrote:
all I can say is you got to be kidding. you are either lying, not playing against people who understand their army list, or cheating. Because if you play Orks and have never been tabled then you are NOT playing Orks.



Sleg wrote:I never called them a cheater or a liar.


Really?

Regardless, instead of insulting another player and instantly doubting their integrity... How about you treat him with respect?

Lets let this one drop peeps, its a really interesting read and thread, dont want to get it locked or banned.
A polite PM apologising and explaining the wording would be much better no?

Indeed.

 Sleg wrote:

Maybe the problem is a lack of understanding what a Green Tide is. Here's my 1500, 160 Ork Tidal Wave, which is almost twice as large as my Original 83 model Tide.
HQ
110 Warboss (Cybork, PK, Attack Squig)
123 Big Mek (SAG, Burna, Ammo Runt, Bosspole)

Troop
300 10 Nobs (Painboy, 10 Cybork, Orderly, Waaagh Banner!, Bosspole)
4x195 30 Ork Boyz (Shootas, 3 Big Shootas)
135 20 Ork Boyz (Nob, Shootas, 2 Big Shootas)

Heavy Support
47 Big Gunz (Kannon, 3 Ammo Runt, 6 Extra Crew)

I agree, that list looks horrible.

My standard lists is usually a bung of shootas (3x30 or 3x20) kitted to the teeth.
Then I fill up the army with toys. I prefer bikes, kannons, lootas and dakkajet.

Just send something more scary in the face of your opponent and he might focus all his fire on that instead of your boyz.
And in the end, you will have more boyz alive reaching the objective or your opponents gunline thanks to the toys.

Jidmah mentioned a few big weaknesses in the Ork army. Soulgrinders, Hellturkeys (or any fliers), Blendernought and Purifiers.
If you make a tide army, you need to fill up the tactical gaps with some toys. You cant just put all the green eggs in one basket.

I dont use the KFF, this might be because how our terrain usually looks like compared to your FLGS. But I have a challange for all the KFF users.
Count every successfull coversave, multiply it with 6 and see if just more boyz wouldnt be a better option after all.
Lets assume your KFF is kitted with 130p (ouch). For the same price you could upgrade two 20 boy squads into 30 boys with an extra bigshoota.

For what its worth, my good friend plays orks in local RTTs and GTs. He's one of the better players I've played with. In my many games with him, this is what I've learned about the ork codex.

* 10 lootas going to ground behind a ADL are great. Your still hitting 50% as often as you were before and getting a 2+ cover. They also don't take a drawback to shooting at flyers

* Meganobs are win. He brings them in truuks. Hides them behind LoS terrain on turn one, then blasts them forward on turn 2. Even if I wreck them, the ramshackle rule is stupidly good

* Since we have been playing more with helldrakes, his lootas are going into a battlewagons more often as a firing platform. With more wave serpents int he game, I expect this trend to continue.

* He uses Ghaz all the time. Not only can Ghaz beat face in assault but his Waaaaagh trick is very helpful. He will often go to ground with his meganobs when getting shot at. People (like me) will then ignore them thinking they are out of the game for a turn. He then pop's Ghaz's Waaaaagh -- making the meganobs fearless who then hop back into the fight and proceed to beat my unsuspecting face in.

* Hes stopped bringing nob bikers. They are just having a hard time against cron air.

* He still brings 90 shoota boys. Sometimes he will swap out a squad of slugga boys, but its usually shoota boys with 3 big shootas. Hes recently started adding a nob back into the squads.

* He still brings one squad of grots. With helldrakes they are easier to burn off the table than they were before. Wave serpents will also make short work of them. As such he keeps them in reserve.

* Warbosses in mega armor are complete money. They are one of the best buys in the game today. Add a cybork body and attack squig and your rocking.

Overall, he's the one who has told me that 'Orks are in a bad spot right now'. Given the latest Tau and Eldar codex's I'm inclined to agree. The good news is that they will probably have a codex before the end of the year given GW's current release schedule!
I think the best use for orks today is as an ally. Bring 60 of them plus a warboss and you have some great objective campers.

You friend seems to be a great warboss

I haven't thought about the fearless trick, that's actually cute.

Do you know how he equips his nob? Full set with PK or boss pole only?

Hes been leaving the PK off lately. I've not seen him use it in the past few months.
I think he might have it in one squad to deal with soulgrinders, etc...

And yea, hes a very good warboss. I enjoy playing players like that because they make my game better.

That is some pretty sound advice for orks.

LabMouse always has the moar gooder ideaz.

Yes, there are a lot of problems running a Green Tide list. Like I said in the start post of this thread as to being slow and clunky. Presenting a working list is awesome, but when your numbers go down, there comes a point when you are no longer running Green Tide. Your list has another name, such as taking bikes would probably make them speed freaks, Taking Meks could be a Mekanik Special or Dread Mob. You wont be tailoring your list around the 3 units of Ork Boyz, you are bringing and once that happens, it's no longer green tide.

 Sleg wrote:
it's no longer green tide.

According to your definition. For many of us a "Green Tide" list involves the primary element of large squads of boyz but is not limited to just boyz.

The only acceptable "official" definition of a "Green Tide" would be the Apocalypse Formation, which includes, at minimum, 100 Boyz and a Warboss.

Your adherence to strictly the core of Ork Boyz is admirable, but is in no way the "definitive" or accepted meaning of Green Tide, both here (and most forums) and in the meta.

 Cryonicleech wrote:

You realize the weaknesses of this list right?
Purifiers will have a field day with your list, much less anything that can affect large units.
I see 1 Kannon, a SAG and the Warboss's Power Klaw (I'm not sure what the Nobz are armed with, but I don't see any Power Klaws)
How do you deal with Vehicles? Flyers? Anything, really.
While I understand the idea of literally drowning the opponent with Ork Boyz, by not taking anything to support these boyz you've created a very exploitable weakness. Everything in moderation, even Boyz. The list seems to lack answers to many threats in 6th and is entirely dependent on one gimmick.

Yes there are so many weakness with running a true green tide list, I don't know where to begin. But it has done exactly what it is suppose to do, It completely floods the battle field, it takes massive casualties and in the 1 of the test with this force it has won, just by the mere fact they couldn't kill enough of them. Big Shootas and Shootas work better than you think. The Boyz can take out most vehicles on a charge. That's right 1 Power Claw and it seems to be enough. Vector strike can't target model in melee and most flyers have 10 back, which shootas and Big Shootas can exploit with snap fire (6's only, instead of 5's and 6's).
Green Tide is most certainly a gimmick, but some player use it (or a least used to use it).

I'll be clear again, this is about using a Green Tide list, some players understand that it's about overwhelming with numbers instead of fire power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cryonicleech wrote:

The only acceptable "official" definition of a "Green Tide" would be the Apocalypse Formation, which includes, at minimum, 100 Boyz and a Warboss.

So my 83, list that only had 60 Boys and a Warboss. Would not have been a Green Tide. I'll agree to that.

 Sleg wrote:


I'll be clear again, this is about using a Green Tide list, some players understand that it's about overwhelming with numbers instead of fire power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cryonicleech wrote:

The only acceptable "official" definition of a "Green Tide" would be the Apocalypse Formation, which includes, at minimum, 100 Boyz and a Warboss.

So my 83, list that only had 60 Boys and a Warboss. Would not have been a Green Tide. I'll agree to that.

This is about using a Green Tide list.

So, then, if an army consists of, minimum, 100 Ork Boyz and a Warboss, it is a Green Tide, regardless of the extra toys that supposedly "don't belong" in the list.

Yes, it's about overwhelming with numbers. But that doesn't mean you can't bring firepower. They're not mutually exclusive.

 Cryonicleech wrote:

This is about using a Green Tide list.
So, then, if an army consists of, minimum, 100 Ork Boyz and a Warboss, it is a Green Tide, regardless of the extra toys that supposedly "don't belong" in the list.
Yes, it's about overwhelming with numbers. But that doesn't mean you can't bring firepower. They're not mutually exclusive.

Yes, my list consists of a SAG, a Kannon, and a PK. It also has a Nob unit hiding in there. I would never say you can't bring Firepower, I think I actually said there comes a point when you no longer have the numbers, that it can't be considered as a Green Tide List. So with another resounding YES! that's what I'm talking about. I never said you can't bring a KFF, I believe I have always said that for me, I stop taking into account that there is so much more Terrain cover that I don't use because I'll always just roll the 5+. Once I took away my (and mine alone) crutch I was amazed by how easy it was to still move (just as fast) down the field and in most cases I had better cover, instead of it just being terrain that is in my way.

I'm sorry if the revelation isn't new for most people and this tactic is so blasé, that I must have just started playing the Orks to have never seen or used that. But using it, even surprised the Chaos Marine player I was playing against and for the first time, I had boyz getting into melee. The Truth is a rarly put together a green tide list because most of the time, it takes way to long to set up, I need to get a second person (basically a bystander) to help and my results have always ended in complete disaster. This time I'm shooting a SAG - where did that come from? I'm bringing a ton more boyz (which I'm actually meeting and surpassing the min req for having a Green Tide and I could easily still make the min req if it were a 1k game.

So thank you.

Other than Ruins how are you getting better cover than a KFF?
1 model within range gives the whole unit cover, whereas relying on terrain means only the models in terrain benefit.

You're just not making sense.

rigeld2, you joined the conversation. So that huge building that your opponent plops down in the middle of the board, every game, can be considered a ruin or fortification (a 4+ and possible 3+). In past games I would just go around it, unless it bottlenecked me too much and I had to go through it. If I was shot at, I would still just roll the 5+.
So with the exception of some ruined buildings, the rest of the terrain you are left with either no LOS or the same. For the most part if you have to cross a wide open field (which never happens for me) your save would be worse, because unless you bring grots, you can't go to ground, because of fearless.
Now, if I would get the same cover for 0pts, I realized that my Big Mek KFF usually ends up doing nothing and it takes up a HQ slot, plus was costing me a minimun of 85pts (the cost of 14 wounds for a 2 wound figure).
I had to change my thinking from instead of just sucking up the difficult terrain roll (that I desperately tried to avoid), I would embrace it, moving the massive army where I wanted to, because I need the terrain.
Cybork is very expensive, the 5+ is an invulnerable save not just a cover save but for me I would once again try to avoid terrain and end up bottlenecking my units who's movement would come to a stand still.
For players, that have done this I was wondering how it was working for you? If you brought along the KFF, do you realize how many rolls would have been the same, better, or worse than if you didn't bring it along? Because it still doesn't change your shooting, with the models behind, you will still grant that 5+ save.

 Sleg wrote:
rigeld2, you joined the conversation. So that huge building that your opponent plops down in the middle of the board, every game, can be considered a ruin or fortification (a 4+ and possible 3+). In past games I would just go around it, unless it bottlenecked me too much and I had to go through it. If I was shot at, I would still just roll the 5+.
So with the exception of some ruined buildings, the rest of the terrain you are left with either no LOS or the same. For the most part if you have to cross a wide open field (which never happens for me) your save would be worse, because unless you bring grots, you can't go to ground, because of fearless.
Now, if I would get the same cover for 0pts, I realized that my Big Mek KFF usually ends up doing nothing and it takes up a HQ slot, plus was costing me a minimun of 85pts (the cost of 14 wounds for a 2 wound figure).
I had to change my thinking from instead of just sucking up the difficult terrain roll (that I desperately tried to avoid), I would embrace it, moving the massive army where I wanted to, because I need the terrain.
Cybork is very expensive, the 5+ is an invulnerable save not just a cover save but for me I would once again try to avoid terrain and end up bottlenecking my units who's movement would come to a stand still.
For players, that have done this I was wondering how it was working for you? If you brought along the KFF, do you realize how many rolls would have been the same, better, or worse than if you didn't bring it along? Because it still doesn't change your shooting, with the models behind, you will still grant that 5+ save.

If you have one unit of boys providing cover for everyone else, then that unit is your bottle neck. you can only move as fast as that unit. It can be a bigger hindrance than the cover it provides. And grots do that job better and cheaper so you can get some bigger guns and more klaws.

your nob squad is just an expensive boy squad, you're paying 8 points more for 1 less wound. If you're not going to give them bikes, klaws, a painboy or extra weapons, you really don't need them.

KFF protects you from barrage weapons, overwatch shots, vehicle explosions (inside or out) and your front line when they're in the open. Terrain does provide cover and sometimes better cover, but it can never protect your entire army. Why not use both?

Drop the nobs, downgrade your shield line to grots, and get more kannons, get lootas, and definitely get more klaws. I know tides logic is boys before toys, but trust me, the toys are nice to.

If you have only one unit providing cover - this is about switching your front unit off so they can move through difficult terrain. The problem with using grots is they have to stay in front, Also they will probably route after the first volley of shots are taken.

So yes, you will bottleneck, you would've bottlenecked anyway. As for using both, I'm not against using the KFF, but I have to weigh it against more useful HQ options and 14 wounds. If it will save more than 86 orks from shots fired that regular cover wouldn't provide, then taking the KFF is worth it. Otherwise, 14 more Ork Boyz with shootas to absorb wounds is the better value. A Warboss will always be better, taking a Nob unit as a scoring unit with Cybork and FNP - is better overall than a 5+ cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My math was off it would be 72 or more Boyz instead of more than 86, I didn't take into account that the Big Mek had 2 wounds

 Sleg wrote:
If you have only one unit providing cover - this is about switching your front unit off so they can move through difficult terrain. The problem with using grots is they have to stay in front, Also they will probably route after the first volley of shots are taken.

So yes, you will bottleneck, you would've bottlenecked anyway. As for using both, I'm not against using the KFF, but I have to weigh it against more useful HQ options and 14 wounds. If it will save more than 86 orks from shots fired that regular cover wouldn't provide, then taking the KFF is worth it. Otherwise, 14 more Ork Boyz with shootas to absorb wounds is the better value. A Warboss will always be better, taking a Nob unit as a scoring unit with Cybork and FNP - is better overall than a 5+ cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My math was off it would be 72 or more Boyz instead of more than 86, I didn't take into account that the Big Mek had 2 wounds

How do you figure 72?

it only costs 15 boys, so if it saves 15 it made it's points. 13 if your just counting wounds.

It's complicated, based on average shots to average hits to average wounds. You take the base min for 84 points, it's 14 Ork Boys, all with a 6+ armor save (the average ap weapon negates that). Strip out all equal saves, including intervening models and cover saves. You are left with models that would take open field shots (Focus Fire), Barrage Weapons, and overwatch shots. You are not taking into account that Ork Shoota Boyz might shoot. Take 2 units of Boyz, with the KFF it's 23, without its 30. What I forgot to factor in is the 2 wound HQ with a higher LD, when the units drop below 11. This will happen faster with the 23 than the 30.

Build the equation based on these factors and take the average as the firm means. This assumes that both armies will roll exactly the same.

Total that up
The answer is 71.7634 so 72 or more.

Originally I didn't take into account that the Big Mek had 2 wounds
that answer was 86.2343... so more than 86.

You're going to have to show your work on that - the actual equation and not your babbling explanation.

Because the way you just explained it makes less than zero sense and actually would be literally impossible to calculate.

 easysauce wrote:
warbikes have 2 wounds fyi

That's incorrect.

Nob Bikers have 2 wounds, regular bikers only 1.

I've never as of yet had my orks tabled. I'm still playing almost the same army since mid 5th. Battlewagons and deffrollas with a dash of Nob Bikers. Lootas to spare.

rigeld2 - I'm going to just refuse to do that, since it's just babbling, just assume I'm wrong and move on. compare 2 wounds to 14 wounds and the number of time that you believe wont get saved, if the Big Mek saves move, then use the Big Mek.

The problem with greentide is meeting a foe who can play that game better than you can.

My endless pooping Termagant babies list for example, or the Krieg assault brigade's forever reinforcing platoons of doom.

Kain, facing off against a real horde, I would say is the least of the problems with Green Tide.
the biggest problem, I've found is movement. When you cover your deployment zone from the start and then begin the slow movement, you mostly have to just take every shot by your opponent for 3 turns.
If your opponent doesn't panic and focuses on one of your flanks, removing the unit with the Big Mek and still keeping away from the other units, the Green Tide should crumble everytime. Bottlenecking is the worst and it allows your opponent to 300 you and just keep killing those in front, which means that in order to avoid this, you have to slug through difficult terrain make 3 turns until contact 4-5 (sometimes the game will end before melee ever happens).

But that said, if Green Tide (or the 2 other examples you mentioned) can restrict the opponents movement and force them into endless shooting of Fearless Troops, they might actually pull a win. But so far, only bringing an extremely large number of Boyz I have been able to do this. taking fewer boyz for firepower (toys) has never been effective Green Tide for me - yes there are times that victory is possible, but the boyz were no longer effective enough and I might as well just built my force around the Toys instead of trying to Green Tide.

 Kain wrote:
The problem with greentide is meeting a foe who can play that game better than you can.

My endless pooping Termagant babies list for example, or the Krieg assault brigade's forever reinforcing platoons of doom.

I'll agree nids & guard are hard fights. and you just can't declare when the game starts who will win.

and sleg, if they concentrate on the big mek, and it lives. The second part to that strategy is he plays hot potato, and never finishes in the unit he starts in. I think the part of your math that needs looking at is you are counting the loss of shooting for the 15 boys that payed for the big mek. But along with that you even admit you're not shooting til turn 3. So if the mek can save 15+ boys by round 3 it's a wash for loss of shooting.

When it comes to the HQ selection isn't it that Green Tide players prefer Big Mek with KFF to Warboss because Warboss actually gives you 0 synergy and BM gives you 5+ cover.
And since you HAVE to have 1 HQ, people just take BM because it improves their major force, Green Tide that is.

sirlynchmob wrote:
and sleg, if they concentrate on the big mek, and it lives. The second part to that strategy is he plays hot potato, and never finishes in the unit he starts in. I think the part of your math that needs looking at is you are counting the loss of shooting for the 15 boys that payed for the big mek. But along with that you even admit you're not shooting til turn 3. So if the mek can save 15+ boys by round 3 it's a wash for loss of shooting.

My math is pretty sound, but lets go with the simple math of 12+ saves equals price of Big Mek. The wounds give, can not provide natural 5+ cover saves from terrain or intervening models. Also half the weapons do not have an AP, so any 6 that you roll would be an armor save. So you will have to roll 42 save rolls, losing on average 32 Boyz, in order to justify the cost of the Big Mek, But wait that's not all, you have smaller units, Losing 13 (instead of 20), will cause the unit to make LD test, failing at 20%-43% of the time, Which if they have a Bosspole, will cause another wound to a Boy which they will fail 50% of the time.
If the opponent concentrates on the Big Mek's unit - intervening cover doesn't matter it's still 5+, shooting the Big Mek's unit wouldn't count towards making the Big Mek useful, they should be able to eliminate that unit before he can hot potato.

 Sleg wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and sleg, if they concentrate on the big mek, and it lives. The second part to that strategy is he plays hot potato, and never finishes in the unit he starts in. I think the part of your math that needs looking at is you are counting the loss of shooting for the 15 boys that payed for the big mek. But along with that you even admit you're not shooting til turn 3. So if the mek can save 15+ boys by round 3 it's a wash for loss of shooting.

My math is pretty sound, but lets go with the simple math of 12+ saves equals price of Big Mek. The wounds give, can not provide natural 5+ cover saves from terrain or intervening models. Also half the weapons do not have an AP, so any 6 that you roll would be an armor save. So you will have to roll 42 save rolls, losing on average 32 Boyz, in order to justify the cost of the Big Mek, But wait that's not all, you have smaller units, Losing 13 (instead of 20), will cause the unit to make LD test, failing at 20%-43% of the time, Which if they have a Bosspole, will cause another wound to a Boy which they will fail 50% of the time.
If the opponent concentrates on the Big Mek's unit - intervening cover doesn't matter it's still 5+, shooting the Big Mek's unit wouldn't count towards making the Big Mek useful, they should be able to eliminate that unit before he can hot potato.

I see what you're doing.

Just about every weapon put on the table ignores our armor. It's safe to say we'll almost never take an armor save.

I agree you'd count only the cover saves that the KFF provides, not terrain. So all you'd need is a divided sheet of paper to test with: Kff saves and terrain saves. I'd divide them again into saves taken & saves made. But feel free to track armor saves taken & made as well. Might as well get as much data as possible. Taking 42 cover saves is rather easy to do after 2 rounds of shooting, but for this kind of comparison it's the data from games that count. If you get the 42 cover saves that you normally wouldn't have gotten then it definitely paid for itself.

I'm not sure how you figured the LD tests, at LD:7 you have a 58.33% of passing it from any shooting attack, then you get a chance to reroll. so you'll make the test more than you'll fail the test.

For your build:
110 Warboss (Cybork, PK, Attack Squig)
123 Big Mek (SAG, Burna, Ammo Runt, Bosspole)

4x195 30 Ork Boyz (Shootas, 3 Big Shootas)
135 20 Ork Boyz (Nob, Shootas, 2 Big Shootas)

you'd keep the 4x30 boys, The points you save by replacing your warboss would make your 5th mob 25 boys, or if you replace the SAG you'd have a unit of 28. So that's actually more boys for you, not less. And compared to a SAG who's just as likely to kill more boys then the enemy a KFF starts off saving boys just from that.

 Sleg wrote:
rigeld2 - I'm going to just refuse to do that, since it's just babbling, just assume I'm wrong and move on. compare 2 wounds to 14 wounds and the number of time that you believe wont get saved, if the Big Mek saves move, then use the Big Mek.

How about this:

Cost of the KFF: 85 (iirc)
Cost of a boy: 6 (iirc)

85/6=14.

If the KFF saves more than 14 boyz it's paid for itself.
Here's the "impossible to determine" part - the KFF only gets used on models (not units) that are out of terrain. Having the KFF affords you the option of leaving models out of terrain and not caring. Not having it means you have to hug cover to have a save. KFF == options. No KFF == reduced options.

There's no "mathematical" way for you to prove it because you cannot ever mathematically represent the battlefield. If you have 90+ models, however, it's likely that half of them will be out of cover. A Barrage weapon, focus fire... there's multiple ways to hit models that aren't standing in area terrain. The KFF gives those models a save. Screening with grots doesn't (because you shoot chump guns at the screen, models go away, you shoot into the pretty gap).

First, not all shots from a Barrage weapon provide no cover. The shot is taken from the hole, so any other unit hit, would get intervening cover of 5+. You have to take those shots out as well. But Focus Fire, will, the only difference, is they will not have to use focus fire, to hit any unit they want because they all get 5+ cover. 5+ cover only saves 1/3 of the time.

You have to weigh your not shooting HQ against 14 possible shooting Ork Boyz. So it would have to save 12+ Ork boys that normal cover wouldn't.

12+ is less than 14. Seriously, do you even read you own posts? Not to mention that you put out some magic numbers, claim your math is correct and then refuse to show your calculation. That's just as good as making up numbers - there is no way to tell if you're right or wrong.

If you suffer 45 wounds, a KFF will save 15 of those on average. 45 wounds are 90 S4 hits, which are 135 BS4 shots. Seems like a lot? You are taking these shots across at least two turns, so 67.5 shots per turn, which are 33.75 bolters, gauss rifles, shuriken catapults or any equivalent weapon.
So, if as much as three troops choices manage to shoot your orks for two turns you've almost gained the value of the KFF the second you charge.

Also, if your opponent is drops a large building for you to hide behind in the center of the board, he really is giving you an advantage. He could just drop the building on your table edge and deny you any cover at all.

Just to sum up everything you said:
You don't need the KFF, if...
- all your terrain is ruins (well, that actually might happen)
- your opponent does not focus fire and instead targets the closest model (aka playing against weak players)
- you forget to take 4+ cover saves because of the KFF (a warboss is also useless if you forget to move him)
- you actually get to take your 6+ armor most of the time (grot horde?)
- you cybork everything with Mad Doc Grotznik (for as little as than 150 points per mob)
- it doesn't work against barrage (which it does)
- you usually have more than the average 12 pieces of terrain, so you can hide the vast majority of your 90 orks in cover (outside of cities of death... unlikely)
- you take a scoring nob unit with FNP and cybork (whatever that has to do with anything)
- your opponent is dropping terrain in favor of you, rather than in favor of him (dead orks are better than slow orks)
- you are fielding smaller units than 30 because you bought a KFF (why should you?)
- you save less than 12 additional boyz over the course of a game (as shown above, not that hard in most games)

So, in your own words, you've pretty much said that there is no reason not to take a KFF.

 Sleg wrote:
First, not all shots from a Barrage weapon provide no cover. The shot is taken from the hole, so any other unit hit, would get intervening cover of 5+.

I never said that a Barrage weapon ignores cover. With a 30 man blob it's unlikely for it to scatter outside of a single unit, meaning you won't get an intervening unit cover save.

You have to take those shots out as well. But Focus Fire, will, the only difference, is they will not have to use focus fire, to hit any unit they want because they all get 5+ cover. 5+ cover only saves 1/3 of the time.

And how often does no cover save?

You have to weigh your not shooting HQ against 14 possible shooting Ork Boyz. So it would have to save 12+ Ork boys that normal cover wouldn't.

I've never - ever - seen a game decided by 14 boyz shooting (what is that - 14 shots per turn, BS2, assuming they shoot every single turn... 14 shots, 1/3 hit (5), 1/2 wound (Str4 right? 3 wounds), 2/3 save for 1 wound per turn. Seriously. You're going to hang an argument on that?)

 Sleg wrote:
First, not all shots from a Barrage weapon provide no cover. The shot is taken from the hole, so any other unit hit, would get intervening cover of 5+. You have to take those shots out as well. But Focus Fire, will, the only difference, is they will not have to use focus fire, to hit any unit they want because they all get 5+ cover. 5+ cover only saves 1/3 of the time.

You have to weigh your not shooting HQ against 14 possible shooting Ork Boyz. So it would have to save 12+ Ork boys that normal cover wouldn't.

And no cover, never saves. so an extra 1/3 of the times is a definite improvement. I also showed how you'd have more boys by taking a cheaper HQ. so you're not losing out on any shooting, you can even give the mek a burna and still add a few boys to your list.

/edit oh and you don't even need to take the KFF to see if it would help you, next time you play just tally up boys who didn't get a cover save that the KFF would have provided one to.

And Rigeld2, that would be 28 shots from 14 boys, most orks are packing shootas now days, not the old sluggas.
so 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.

I ran a greentide with lootas and 3 deffdread out of the 52 games I played 50 won and 2 drew (drew with draigo wing, I can't push 10 paladins draigo and a Libby off their objective, necron were pretty OP when they came out as we all know.)

My green tide has beaten Purifers spam, inquisitor (GK) acolyte av12 spam, 2x landraider GK all were the OP armies at the time.

I used the tools I has, bodies and KFF and terrain to beat all those army. My list had nothing special it's pretty much a net list except without the kanwall but with 3 deffdread with flamer and rest CC weapons

12 is based on the cost of a Big Mek which equal 14 minus the 2 wounds of the Big Mek. You should really read my post. Because everything you stated is actually completely wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marthike wrote:
I ran a greentide with lootas and 3 deffdread out of the 52 games I played 50 won and 2 drew (drew with draigo wing, I can't push 10 paladins draigo and a Libby off their objective, necron were pretty OP when they came out as we all know.)
My green tide has beaten Purifers spam, inquisitor (GK) acolyte av12 spam, 2x landraider GK all were the OP armies at the time.
I used the tools I has, bodies and KFF and terrain to beat all those army. My list had nothing special it's pretty much a net list except without the kanwall but with 3 deffdread with flamer and rest CC weapons

What was the Points on the 50 games?
So you had at least 100 Boyz, a Warboss, Big Mek KFF, Lootas, and 3 Deff Dread - Skorcha and CC (95 points each). Hopefully you had an ADL for your Lootas.
In all 50 games not one army you played against, just shot out one side of Orks, and then removed the rest of the Orks with ease while you struggled through terrain. Because you should become a Ranked Player and single-handed bring the 4th edition Orks to actually placing at GW sanctioned events. I mean wow, 50 out of 52 games and no loses, I think it's unbelievable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
I see what you're doing. Just about every weapon put on the table ignores our armor. It's safe to say we'll almost never take an armor save.

My original equation takes this into account - only to simplify the fact that a lot of mounted units or CC special units tend to only carry weapons without an AP. But yes I'm always shocked when I'm rolling the 6+ armor save - but it would be no where near half, probably in the high 80 percentile range (might as well just take it out).

I agree you'd count only the cover saves that the KFF provides, not terrain. So all you'd need is a divided sheet of paper to test with: Kff saves and terrain saves. I'd divide them again into saves taken & saves made. But feel free to track armor saves taken & made as well. Might as well get as much data as possible. Taking 42 cover saves is rather easy to do after 2 rounds of shooting, but for this kind of comparison it's the data from games that count. If you get the 42 cover saves that you normally wouldn't have gotten then it definitely paid for itself.

So you have to have a practical test, instead of just using averages?

I'm not sure how you figured the LD tests, at LD:7 you have a 58.33% of passing it from any shooting attack, then you get a chance to reroll. so you'll make the test more than you'll fail the test.

The actual percentage of passing LD test is 57.142857142857(repeated) - round to 57% pass, fail at 43% but only if your nob is still alive otherwise your LD 5 28.571428571428(repeated) - rounded to 29%, fail at 71%.

I need to make a correction because of Mob Rule - it's not 80% but 90.476190476190(repeating) - rounded to 90% so it would be a 10% fail not 20% - going from LD10 down to a LD7 possible LD5 - so failing at 10% - 43% possible 71%.

I've already play tested Green Tide plenty to know that when I don't have a KFF, my opponent will shoot the easier or no cover units before shooting at the units that have something to lose like an HQ. If they are throwing a lot of shots or think they will do a lot of wounds, they don't waste the focus fire, especially when they could remove cover from a unit and allow other units to shoot with no cover the front line, instead of the same unit behind. This is solid thinking, except I seem to still take the same amount of time, what every their shooting method is.

When I have taken the KFF, there is a huge bullseye on that unit. Because it isn't any safer than a Grot or Ork Boyz front line, They might as well shoot that unit first or the Lootas or any other unit they perceive as a threat, usually elimiting the punch from the force. Most times I leave the game wondering why I didn't just take more boyz. In earlier editions of 40k, lots of boyz worked so much better than it does now.

Overwatch for Orks is not a big deal. Overwatch for other armies is the change from hitting on 3's to only 6's this seems to make a huge difference and why I usually do not hesitate to assault ever. I've had the tables turned and been assaulted instead, only because Orks arealways better when they charge.

There is one combination resulting in a 2, two resulting in a 3, three resulting in a 4, four resulting in a 5, five resulting in a 6 and six resulting in a 7, for a total of 21 out of 36 combinations.

21/36 = 0.583333

Considering your long string of miscalculations, your "equation" is worth absolutely nothing unless you post it. That is, if it exists.

I haven't seen green tide used competitively since the Heldrake was released.

@sleg number of cover saves taken Is near impossible to figure out mathematically during a game with a ever changing battle field, and against all knows armies. so yes a few games keeping track of the numbers will give enough raw data to see how effective the KFF is. The more games the more data and better we can predict games.

LD will never go below 7 for shooting attacks which is what we're really talking about here for boys. If you're trying to bring grots into this, I don't see the point since you're not running them and we've been talking about boys to kff costs. but if you bring them up you should separate between boys & grots then.

And again, cheaper HQ=more boys so you're gaining boys when you use the KFF.

@Jidmah he's calculating for the number of saves needed to save the 14 boys the kff costs in points. so if you took 42 cover saves you should end up saving 14 boys. I'm not sure about the LD numbers though.

@D6Damager I still take a tide army and usually face off and win against chaos. But my tide has lootas and koptas and force fields, oh my!. lootas will wreck most chaos vehicles including the chicken.

 Jidmah wrote:
There is one combination resulting in a 2, two resulting in a 3, three resulting in a 4, four resulting in a 5, five resulting in a 6 and six resulting in a 7, for a total of 21 out of 36 combinations.

So you are counting two separate roll for 3 because it's a 1 and 2 or 2 and 1. for your average. Not just 1 roll like snake eyes 1 die is a 1 and the other is a 2. Because both dice can't be 2 nor can they both be 1. But using your results, it's 58%, instead of 57%.

21/36 = 0.583333
Considering your long string of miscalculations, your "equation" is worth absolutely nothing unless you post it. That is, if it exists.

How about I say it's worth nothing to you, since you have said nothing that would encourage me to show my work. You have only shown how petty you are by misquoting me and either removing past statements or changing them to sway the argument towards you. In the end it doesn't matter, this is about using Terrain for a Green Tide Army, if you have a KFF - I'm so very happy for you. If you don't have problems moving through terrain, I'm jumping for joy at the fact that you are such a winner. If this was something that you have solved by just being a better player, I don't know how that helps. But there are those of us who do have this problem terrain. There are those like me who only wished we didn't use terrain so I can move my force unimpeded down the field and engage with my opponent. So please stop trolling and join the discussion or ignore it like you stated you were going to do before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
@sleg number of cover saves taken Is near impossible to figure out mathematically during a game with a ever changing battle field, and against all knows armies. so yes a few games keeping track of the numbers will give enough raw data to see how effective the KFF is. The more games the more data and better we can predict games.
LD will never go below 7 for shooting attacks which is what we're really talking about here for boys. If you're trying to bring grots into this, I don't see the point since you're not running them and we've been talking about boys to kff costs. but if you bring them up you should separate between boys & grots then.
And again, cheaper HQ=more boys so you're gaining boys when you use the KFF.

Sorry, I was in the middle of creating a Green Tide list with Grots and Mad Doc, but you are correct that the LD never drops below 7 which is according some equal to 42% failure - not 43% that I maintain (but doesn't really matter).
Now you got to the heart of the matter, I do agree that taking a KFF (85pts) instead of a Warboss (110) equals more Boyz. I also agree that the 2 test games (1 win 1 loss) is not a valid test, compared to the overwhelming losses I've taken using the green tide in 5th Edition (which technically wasn't a green tide army in the first place). I've done the best with 6th Edition, playing Speed Freaks (Warboss Biker, attached to troop Nob Bikers). Next I would say was a Dread Mob, with 2 SAG attached to an elite Nob unit and 2 units of Lootas (Drop Pods usually wreak them). Strangely enough a Thraka army places 3rd on my list. And then there are 28 other army list, I would prefer over Green Tide. A Big Mek KFF with a Burna in a Battlewagon (Def Rolla) as part of a vehicle heavy force, is awesome. Protecting footsloggers still seems like a waste to me.

So yes, winning one game would never qualify this as the perfect tactic for a Green Tide, but it made me very aware of how much cover I was giving up for a HQ that as long as they have LOS, they will wreak that unit a Big Mek is in. Which is why I ask if anyone has done this, moving the Ork Boyz as a Wave - I was actually looking for feedback, not looking to get attacked because I presented something that is obviously crazy. As far as actually testing this with my group, it's not worth it (because I'm really not a Green Tide player), yes I have over 1k of shoota boyz, but if I even use 60 of them that's a lot for me in most of my force list.

The reason we don't trust your formula is that you're showing a marked failure in understanding how probability works.

The odds of a 7 or less on 2d6 is and always will be 7/12 or 21/36 as Jidmah showed.

 Sleg wrote:
Jidmah, I never attacked you. I was presenting a new way to run Green Tide - I asked if others have done this. You obviously did not, but processed to continue to say that you can't run a green tide without a KFF. That's NOT why I posted this thread. I put it up because I ran orks in 2 games without a KFF - because it was the only way I could do this was without the use of a KFF.
Also read the quote you quoted me, it's not 100 ork players, because most aren't ork players. At your store you have some dominating Ork players, I get that. It doesn't change the fact that Ork are NOT competitive in 6th.
And because I mistake Focus Fire for something else doesn't mean I don't know what it was.
Thank you for your imput about Green Tide List, but you don't have any problems using a Big Mek KFF and do not want to try something different - I understand that. I would really like to hear from those players that do.

Using cover is a new way to run a Green Tide? I'm pretty sure that's all armies in 5th edition. Nowadays you're just going to get Focus Fired. Have fun dealing with Manticores, Night Scythes, Punishers, etc. without your 5+ KFF save.

@sleg

The walking wall has been used, never by me. Because you are taking a slow army and making it slower. but those who have done it, used grots because they're cheaper meat shields. So if your opponent wants to get rid of the wall he's putting shots into models that are there to die, so your boys may live.

a single line of troops will bottle neck you more than terrain would, as you're really adding in a extra bottle neck. you still have to work through terrain, plus try to keep coherency by going around large buildings which can prove difficult. If you can't split the unit and reform on the other side of the building you end up pulling in a side of your wall which removes cover & slows down the models behind it.

I agree 2 games does not make a proper test as I've stated previously. If you've got some ocd for statistics a pen & paper can record some interesting data. You don't need a KFF to see if it would help or not, just tick off anytime you don't get a cover save when a KFF could have provided one. So you can try out the meat wall, keep some notes, and keep the same list for at least 10 games, preferably against different armies to see how it does.

rigeld2 wrote:
The reason we don't trust your formula is that you're showing a marked failure in understanding how probability works.
The odds of a 7 or less on 2d6 is and always will be 7/12 or 21/36 as Jidmah showed.

Odds of rolling a 7 or less is 12/21 possible outcomes. it can't be 7/12 because you can't roll a 1 with 2 dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
@sleg The walking wall has been used, never by me. Because you are taking a slow army and making it slower. but those who have done it, used grots because they're cheaper meat shields. So if your opponent wants to get rid of the wall he's putting shots into models that are there to die, so your boys may live.
a single line of troops will bottle neck you more than terrain would, as you're really adding in a extra bottle neck. you still have to work through terrain, plus try to keep coherency by going around large buildings which can prove difficult. If you can't split the unit and reform on the other side of the building you end up pulling in a side of your wall which removes cover & slows down the models behind it.
I agree 2 games does not make a proper test as I've stated previously. If you've got some ocd for statistics a pen & paper can record some interesting data. You don't need a KFF to see if it would help or not, just tick off anytime you don't get a cover save when a KFF could have provided one. So you can try out the meat wall, keep some notes, and keep the same list for at least 10 games, preferably against different armies to see how it does.

Yeah I was given the suggestion to take the full grot (33 models) and attach mad doc to them making them fearless and just run this wall straight at them. It is from my understanding the most common method of using Green Tide. It provides the same cover as Terrain and a KFF and they have to shoot all the Gretchins with FNP down to Mad Doc, if he survives he just joins the closest Ork Boyz Group and does the same thing. I'm not thrilled with it, he cost 160 points, but can give Lootas Cybork and saves the 30 point cost for a painboy in the Nob unit. plus the 120pts Gretchin unit saves 75 points from the Boyz, if I take 2 Gretchin units I just save 150 points which almost pays for Mad Doc alone. This method would do 2 things: 1 decrease the number of Boyz, if they drop below 100 it's no longer a Green Tide List. 2. Change the Tactic I presented completely. Even still 33 fearless Gretchins and Runtherd are certainly more of a shot absorber than 30 Ork Boyz without Fearless.

Still it all boils down to my method of playing, I will say if I do run a Green Tide it will be the Mad Doc/Gretchin method way before KFF providing footslogging unit 6" with 5+ cover. And NO I will not being giving every unit in the list cybork - only the ones I like. So I beg of you to not misquote me.

 Sleg wrote:


Odds of rolling a 7 or less is 12/21 possible outcomes. it can't be 7/12 because you can't roll a 1 with 2 dice.

This is not correct. Roll probabilities on 2D6 can be found here: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm. There are 36 possible outcomes from rolling 2D6, each with equal probability. Of these, 21 of them have value 7 or less. This means that the probability of rolling a 7 or less on 2D6 is 21/36, which reduces to 7/12. I can't even work backwards from your value to figure out what you might have done to compute it. How did you get 21 in the denominator?

@sleg I don't think I've misquoted you, you have been hard to follow what you've been saying.

feel free to post your list and tell us how it goes.

And for the probabilities, if you have 2d6 there are 36 outcomes.
http://www.stormtiger.org/bob/gaming/rpg_math/bell_curve/2d6_all_combinations.cgh

UncleMeat wrote:

This is not correct. Roll probabilities on 2D6 can be found here: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm. There are 36 possible outcomes from rolling 2D6, each with equal probability. Of these, 21 of them have value 7 or less. This means that the probability of rolling a 7 or less on 2D6 is 21/36, which reduces to 7/12. I can't even work backwards from your value to figure out what you might have done to compute it. How did you get 21 in the denominator?

There are not - the chance of roll 2,3,11,12 are exactly the same. You are rolling 2 dice - correct not a d12. Your probably doesn't change, each dice has a 1 in 6 chance for any number on it. with 2 dice it is 1 in 6 with each not combined. Any doubles are also the exact same probability. You can't change that. You do not have a 7/12 chance nor do you have a 21/36. you can never have a number divisable by 12 because you can not roll a 1 with 2 dice. If you said you had a 6/11 chance or 12/22 or 18/33 I could see your logic, but it still would be wrong. Because there are only 21 possible outcomes, not 36. for example rolling a 1 and 2 = 3, it's the same as rolling a 2 and 1, it's not another possible outcome - it is the same. Get your probability right, and not look at some site telling you something that is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
21 possible outcomes
1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4 1,5 1,6
2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6
3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6
4,4 4,5 4,6
5,5 5,6
6,6


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the exact same probability to roll any of the 21 possible outcomes, you do not have a greater probability of rolling a 3, than you have rolling a 2, 11, or 12.
you have the same probability of rolling a 4, a 5, a 9, or a 10 (2 chances each)
just like you have the same with 6,7, and 8 (3 chances each).

If you tossed the dice separately first die rolls a 4, you have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1, and vise versa - because the chances of getting a 4 and a 1 are the same as getting double 6's. the difference is if you get a 3 and a 2 your chances are doubled for getting a 5. If you need to roll a 7 or less, there are 12 possible outcomes out of 21.

D1, D2

1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4, 1,5 1,6
2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4, 2,5 2,6
3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4, 3,5 3,6
4,1 4,2 4,3 4,4, 4,5 4,6
5,1 5,2 5,3 5,4, 5,5 5,6
6,1 6,2 6,3 6,4, 6,5 6,6

That's 36 possible outcomes for rolling 2D6.

This thread seriously needs to be buried.

 Sleg wrote:
for example rolling a 1 and 2 = 3, it's the same as rolling a 2 and 1, it's not another possible outcome - it is the same. Get your probability right, and not look at some site telling you something that is wrong.

Yes, it very much is a different outcome. Rolling 1,2 is not the same outcome as rolling 2,1 even if the sum is the same. This is easily verifiable: Flip two coins. You have three different outcomes:

[heads, heads]
[heads + tails]
[tails, tails]

You are saying that [heads, heads], [heads + tails] and [tails, tails] each have the same probability. But there are two different ways to get [heads + tails], namely [heads, tails] and [tails, heads] - exactly like rolling [1,2] and [2,1]. What you will find is that the probability distribution will be 25% - 50% - 25%. It doesn't matter that it's "the same outcome", what matters is that there are two ways to get that outcome and thus the chance of that happens doubles. In the same way, you have twice the chance of rolling a 3 on 2d6 than you do of rolling a 2.

 Sleg wrote:
If you tossed the dice separately first die rolls a 4, you have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a 1, and vise versa - because the chances of getting a 4 and a 1 are the same as getting double 6's.

That's technically correct - the odds of rolling a 4 followed by a 1 is exactly the same as rolling 6,6. The difference is that in the game you don't care if you roll a 4 followed by 1, or 1 followed by 4. So you have twice the odds of rolling the combination [4,1] than you do rolling [6,6] - and similarly you have twice the odds of rolling [2,3], for a total of four times the odds of rolling 5 over 12.

Here's another reference site - this one is the Georgia State University. They probably know what they are talking about. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/math/dice.html

If that's what you believe, I'm not going to stop any of you from your belief. But I'm very well versed in statistics of rolling dice and will stand firm on my belief of throwing 2 dice simultaneously and their result. because no matter how you break it down, you still can't roll a 1 with 2 dice with 6 sides. so if you need to roll a 7 or less, you will never roll a 1. it can't be 7/12, even if the State University of Georgia says it, still doesn't make it true.

We are getting off the subject. which is why I was trying to stear clear of "showing my math", and I'm sorry for feeding the trolls.

Back to Green Tide and using terrain, so anyone else used terrain or know someone that uses it.

How in the heck did a thread get orks and math combined together? These things just don't go together at all!!!!

 Sleg wrote:
If that's what you believe, I'm not going to stop any of you from your belief. But I'm very well versed in statistics of rolling dice and will stand firm on my belief of throwing 2 dice simultaneously and their result. because no matter how you break it down, you still can't roll a 1 with 2 dice with 6 sides. so if you need to roll a 7 or less, you will never roll a 1. it can't be 7/12, even if the State University of Georgia says it, still doesn't make it true.

Go do some more research - that's not the only place that says so.
You're. Wrong. You're not well versed in dice statistics. You don't understand reducing fractions.

We are getting off the subject. which is why I was trying to stear clear of "showing my math", and I'm sorry for feeding the trolls.

We're trolling? Who said they had some amazing formula that took into account impossible factors and came up with a value of -what was it, 72? - boys to a KFF? And refuses to show said formula?

Back to Green Tide and using terrain, so anyone else used terrain or know someone that uses it.

So amusing. And I'm the one trolling.

Your understanding of probability is factually wrong. The probability if a given number on a d6 is 1/6. Now you need the probability of 2 numbers on 2 different d6. Please show the math that goes from 1/6 to 1/21. There is decades of math showing how to figure the odds of 2 independent events.

"To admit you were wrong is to declare you are wiser now than before."

 Sleg wrote:
How about I say it's worth nothing to you, since you have said nothing that would encourage me to show my work.

Hurray for more personal attacks
Do you want me to put your exact quotes next to those arguments? I actually went through every single one of your posts to write that post and just repeated what you said. They even are in thread order, in case you want to double-check.

You have only shown how petty you are by misquoting me and either removing past statements or changing them to sway the argument towards you.

Look, repeating a blatant lie isn't going to make it either true, nor does it make you look more credible. The forum software dakkadakka is utilizing puts the exact time and date underneath any post you edit if someone else has already read it. As none of my posts have an editing time stamp dating after your next response, you're making yourself look like an idiot by continuing to claim this. If you still doubt this, you can ask a mod to check the change logs of this thread.

In the end it doesn't matter, this is about using Terrain for a Green Tide Army, if you have a KFF - I'm so very happy for you. If you don't have problems moving through terrain, I'm jumping for joy at the fact that you are such a winner. If this was something that you have solved by just being a better player, I don't know how that helps. But there are those of us who do have this problem terrain. There are those like me who only wished we didn't use terrain so I can move my force unimpeded down the field and engage with my opponent. So please stop trolling and join the discussion or ignore it like you stated you were going to do before.

I will continue "trolling" you as long as you keep advertising a tactic which (according to you yourself) regularly gets you tabled, while backing it up with nothing but magic numbers, unlikely opponent gameplay and misunderstood game rules.

So yes, winning one game would never qualify this as the perfect tactic for a Green Tide, but it made me very aware of how much cover I was giving up for a HQ that as long as they have LOS, they will wreak that unit a Big Mek is in.

So, what's the difference whether they shoot the unit of the big mek instead of any other boyz? You still lose the same amount of models per turn. If anything, you'll have the boyz unit in front getting into combat faster, because the fire is concentrated elsewhere. The big mek also makes the unit ld 8, and if you're that concerned about them breaking, spend your last 5 points of a boss pole for a big mek, making it nigh impossible for him to run off the board.

Which is why I ask if anyone has done this, moving the Ork Boyz as a Wave - I was actually looking for feedback, not looking to get attacked because I presented something that is obviously crazy.

If you go back an read the thread, you'll see that we gave you feedback (take lootaz to handle threats at range, bring KFF to have more cover, bring dakkajets to handle fliers), and then you started to attack people by calling them crazy, liers, cheaters and whatnot. Actually, you attacked anyone who didn't just flat-out agree with you. Feedback includes people not just agreeing with you. If you just want people to agree with you, don't post on forums.

You have the exact same probability to roll any of the 21 possible outcomes, you do not have a greater probability of rolling a 3, than you have rolling a 2, 11, or 12.

I just laughed myself to tears about this. You really shouldn't ever go near Las Vegas unless you plan on going bankrupt.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Green is Best! wrote:
How in the heck did a thread get orks and math combined together? These things just don't go together at all!!!!

Ha, I can prove this wrong:

moar boyz + moar shootaz = moar dakka

 Sleg wrote:

You have the exact same probability to roll any of the 21 possible outcomes, you do not have a greater probability of rolling a 3, than you have rolling a 2, 11, or 12.
you have the same probability of rolling a 4, a 5, a 9, or a 10 (2 chances each)
just like you have the same with 6,7, and 8 (3 chances each).

Yes, you are technically correct. You have the same change of rolling a 3 as you do a 12. However, this is only true if you count rolling a 2,1 and 1,2 as different.

How about this. Let's play a game:

We can roll 2 dice. I win if I roll any combination of 6,7, or 8. You win if you get 2,3,4,5,9,10,11, or 12. Ten bucks a roll for one hundred rolls. Interested?

Lol i laughed a lot by going through this thread

Just Saying Jidman---> Walking How to play Ork s Guide... Whenever i had trouble... saw one of his suggestions,.. next game...frack.. dat git wuz right!

Why are people even showing doubt about the KFF? Its an absolute given that thing rocks... When ever do Orks get to make a reguar armour save? Oh right ap- weapons since everything else negates their armour... So if i get to make a 5+ cover save m like hey! I actually get to make a save! Wow! True,.. 'eavo armor gives you more possibilities to make a save.. but hey... only my HQ/ Nobz or 1 squad with Grotsnik... But thats it.. Otherwise i'd rather take the extra boy for 1 point more...

I do have to say... i have trouble running green tide lately.. but that is because i lost focus for a while... and while i lost focus my opponents got better... No matter... crysh my Orks? I crush em right back with my Crons

*powerfist to all the Orks players*

 Green is Best! wrote:
How about this. Let's play a game:

We can roll 2 dice. I win if I roll any combination of 6,7, or 8. You win if you get 2,3,4,5,9,10,11, or 12. Ten bucks a roll for one hundred rolls. Interested?

You might wanna double check your math there before you get too cocky. At any rate I'd be happy to take you up on that game.

Egads! You might be right! So, I will take 5 as well and my 4 numbers should split evenly between his 7.

Like i said before, why are we mixing orks with maths?

 Green is Best! wrote:
Egads! You might be right! So, I will take 5 as well and my 4 numbers should split evenly between his 7.

Like i said before, why are we mixing orks with maths?

Orks work well with math.
We live in the law of large numbers, and cause our opponents to die by them
We love ratio's like 3:1 I have 3 models to each of yours.
and knowing the odds help when you really need a 8 for a crucial charge, (41.66) you know it's a good time for a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!

OH AND THIS IS MATHHAMMER!!

Ok no more Math. Saturday I'm going to be Bringing another Green Tide List, this one includes the required 100+ Ork Boyz and a Warboss. It will also include 33 Gretchin Force, Mad Dok, a Nob Troop Unit, without a Painboy and 2 units of 10 Lootas.
I will record everytime an Ork Boy is removed without a cover save and present that number here. I will also record everytime a Loota takes a cybork check instead of cover. I am playing 3 games with a 2 hour time limit (which includes setup) each. I will just present the hard facts from the games, Playing Space Wolves, Chaos Marines, and Dark Eldar (Skaven)

So you can't show how your math was correct (because it wasn't) and now you don't want to talk about. Sure.

Is it only the Lootas that will have cybork? I personally think it's a waste of points on them, but whatever floats your boat.

rigeld2 wrote:
So you can't show how your math was correct (because it wasn't) and now you don't want to talk about. Sure. Is it only the Lootas that will have cybork? I personally think it's a waste of points on them, but whatever floats your boat.

Again NO MORE MATH - just believe I'm wrong and it was babbling and move on. I have already shown how I came to all of my conclusions and you have either failed to see them or tried to correct me. I'm not going to change my view of dice rolling and I'm not going to convince you either way that my equations are workable.

So NO MORE MATH - lets talk about Orks shall we? Lootas with Cybork is never a waste for me. if they are for you then you have 100 more points to spend.

 Sleg wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So you can't show how your math was correct (because it wasn't) and now you don't want to talk about. Sure. Is it only the Lootas that will have cybork? I personally think it's a waste of points on them, but whatever floats your boat.

Again NO MORE MATH - just believe I'm wrong and it was babbling and move on. I have already shown how I came to all of my conclusions and you have either failed to see them or tried to correct me. I'm not going to change my view of dice rolling and I'm not going to convince you either way that my equations are workable.

So NO MORE MATH - lets talk about Orks shall we? Lootas with Cybork is never a waste for me. if they are for you then you have 100 more points to spend.

A little ironic that you made such a stand against a 50pt KFF that can give 5+ cover to dozens of boys, but you'll pay 100pts for a 5++ on 20 boys?

yes, I believe a 5+ Invulnerable Save for Lootas not Boyz is worth more to me than a 5+ Cover Save for Boyz.
I don't find it Ironic at all, since I usually give Nobs and the Warboss cybork. Because no matter the shot taken, I will always get to make my invulnerable save.

Also I have nothing against using the KFF, I was always saying for me taking the KFF never seemed worth it, when there was natural cover and intervening models providing it for free. Also that you don't always need to use a HQ slot for a weak boss that doesn't shoot.

it is cheaper just to get a skyshield though. it gets you a 4+ invuln and a positioned elevated firing platform.

And if you fill it with lootas it intimidates others into thinking your unassailable.

Sirlynchmob, that's probably the best advice I ever heard. I'll have to get off my butt and buy a Skyshield or proxy something (though I don't think I have anything similar).

I like it a lot and then I don't have to seem to be ironic.

Ok I did not use the Skyshield, nor did I use Gretchins. The Points were 1000 (710 points for Green Tide Portion) - SAG, 1 Big Gun (Kannon) and 10 Lootas. Skaven player didn't make it, played against, Chaos (Khorne), Tyranids (Doom and Mowloc), and Space Wolves (with long fangs, and some death thing). I actually won the game against Choas by 3 points, even with a Landraider. Against Space Wolves, lost by a point (Technically Tied - but ran out of time and didn't finish my movement phase for the bottom of the 3rd - I would've have Line Breaker. Lost to the Tyranids because of a contested objective. All games were ended by the 3rd turn.

Choas - Lost 24 Orks because of no cover, - rolled their imaginary cover and would have saved only 7 - 3 were because night fighting would have given 3+ cover insead of 4+. I also have the units spread out and would have needed 2 KFFs in order to have protected them all. SAG roll str 3 twice and str 7 once - causing no wounds.

Tyranids Lost 12 Orks because of no cover, but made 6+ 9 times. But Doom removed 7 and I had to move to attack it instead of pressing forward. Again the Warboss did the best. SAG rolled 2 first turn removing itself and Kannon amost the entire Kannon unit, even though I had a Runtherder make his 'Look Out Sir", I rolled a LD 9 and they ran off the back of the board.

Space Wolves ripped me apart, though I sustained no lack of cover losses I was faced with Invulnerable only saves. Also this Hammer attack, Psychic power, shot through 2 units og boyz doing only the removal of 1 Boy, but I did lose my SAG, which only rolled 4,4 in the first turn. They basically shot out the right side and then moved. I lost pretty solidly to them, even though time ran out, it was pretty clear if we completed the game I probably would have been done for Even though the Loods actually shot very well. they couldn't turnit int a victory.

So 7 of your 12 no cover orks were to the doom?
You know you get cover saves from his ability, right?

you really should drop the SAG, After 3 games like that can you really say he earned his points? or he's worth his cost in boys?

Reading this thread makes me laugh so much
Hyperbole, insults, and terrible, terrible maths
Keep it up

sirlynchmob wrote:
you really should drop the SAG, After 3 games like that can you really say he earned his points? or he's worth his cost in boys?

I was going to use a completely different tide list, but we created these test list awhile back and I was told that in order to keep the test fair no changes, so no Mad Doc and no skyshield (which I still need to aquire).
Yeah, the SAG is one of those weapons, that since the 4th edition Ork codex came out, it's just not as wacky as it used t be. In fact most shots are fairly boring, I have probably done worse over all with it than my few spectacular rolls like 8 Str 9 hits. 3 games with a poor showing does not decrease its value, in fact it makes me want to take it more, after a few games they get comfortable and not target it, so that when it actually does something, I get the "WTF". But you are certainly correct, it rarely earns back it's value and if I played competitively I probably would not include it, then again I probably would not use the Green Tide either.

With Doom, I was given a lot 5+ cover, because of terrain, still lost 7 in total because of the 2 movement phases it was around for. It didn't last through my shooting phase, but it did cause 2 units to slow their charge forward.

You only lost 7 models to the Doom of Malan'Tai? You must be playing the mentally ill or something.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
You only lost 7 models to the Doom of Malan'Tai? You must be playing the mentally ill or something.

Because the 3 units effected at the top of the 2nd turn, only failed to save 6 of the 10 wounds and during my movement, 2 units were able to get 6" away and the single unit rolled an 11 and failed to save, before 2 of the units killed it in my shooting phase. The Tyranid Player must be "mentally ill or something". All I can say is if that was mentally ill playing, I can't see how it would have done any better tactically. I could have easily rolled worse, but just as easily rolled much better.

You killed a 3++, W9 model with two units of shooting?

Tactical_Genius wrote:
You killed a 3++, W9 model with two units of shooting?

it's possible. 60 boys shooting
120 shots
40 hits
20 wounds
6.666 statistically unsaved wounds. a bit of bad saving and it's dead.

Yes, took 104 shoota shots, 18 Big Shoota shots. Out of the 104, 73 hit, and 11 Big Shootas shots hit. Out of the 73, 46 wounded and only 8 Big Shootas wounded. Saves were 16 1's and 7 2's, If I failed to kill it with 2, I would have 48 more shoota shots, with 9 Big Shootas.

This was better than average for me, but when it all boils down even if I did half as well with the shooting, I would still have eliminated it. If It survived all 3 units shooting at it, I would have charged it and certainly taken it out.

 Sleg wrote:
Yes, took 104 shoota shots, 18 Big Shoota shots. Out of the 104, 73 hit, and 11 Big Shootas shots hit. Out of the 73, 46 wounded and only 8 Big Shootas wounded. Saves were 16 1's and 7 2's, If I failed to kill it with 2, I would have 48 more shoota shots, with 9 Big Shootas.

This was better than average for me, but when it all boils down even if I did half as well with the shooting, I would still have eliminated it. If It survived all 3 units shooting at it, I would have charged it and certainly taken it out.

nvm

 Sleg wrote:
Yes, took 104 shoota shots, 18 Big Shoota shots. Out of the 104, 73 hit, and 11 Big Shootas shots hit. Out of the 73, 46 wounded and only 8 Big Shootas wounded. Saves were 16 1's and 7 2's, If I failed to kill it with 2, I would have 48 more shoota shots, with 9 Big Shootas.

This was better than average for me, but when it all boils down even if I did half as well with the shooting, I would still have eliminated it. If It survived all 3 units shooting at it, I would have charged it and certainly taken it out.

You had a 73/104 hit rate with BS2? then 11/18 also with BS2?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

You had a 73/104 hit rate with BS2? then 11/18 also with BS2?

This isn't playing the averages, this is what I actually rolled for this shooting turn. Other shooting turns I rolled below average, which is why when confronting the Doom, I was using 3 units, because I felt that only 1 would be able to charge and attack in Melee, no matter how well or poorly I rolled, the Doom was not going to survive, and that is exactly how green tide works.
If I threw enough wounds, eventually my opponent will roll enough 1's and 2's (the exact same percentage 33.33 to fail as I had to succeed) - so Out of a possible 152 shoota shots (51 hits), 27 Big Shoota (9 Hits). Wounds would be shootas - 25, big shootas - 6. Failed saves 3 on shootas with 2 from Big Shootas.
Assault would be with the unit that had the Warboss, and suffered the least casualties but 20 + the warboss get into melee (lets say it killed a few with overwatch or on int 4, but might have taken wounds in the process so that number wouldn't matter, because it wouldn't change the number attacking it). 60 4+ strikes, 30 wounds, 10 failed saves. Then the warboss on int 1 with PK, 5 3+ strikes, 3 to 4 wounds, any failed wounds it is dead, so even if I had not caused 1 wound with all the shooting and melee with the Boyz, Doom would still be removed, if it failed to save from any of the Warbosses attacks,

In 1 game with the SAG I rolled 3 twice - does this improve the average of rolling a 3 on 2d6 - no it doesn't the law of averages stays the same.

While I still think his strategy can be improved, there is no need to beat on him for getting lucky dice. That's how probability works. If you have a lot of rolls with a low chance of success, it's possible to get results far above the average, even though it's not likely. In return, his SAG got all the bad dice.

Also, the doom probably could have done more, but not much. Assuming it arrived via deep strike, it could have shot its blast (maximum 5 hits if Sleg properly spread out), plus using its leech twice, for an average of one dead ork per mob (ork ld was 10, the average for 3d6 is 10.5), for a total of 11 wounds before it died, one more than it actually did.

I think that bringing more kannons would have fixed the problem much more elegantly though - a kannon wound instant-deathes the doom, no matter how many wounds it has left, and T7 gretchin aren't exactly a good target for it before it hits eight or more wounds.

There is no "law of averages" though. If anything, there is a definition for average, which says that it when rolling a large number of dice, the total sum of all results divided by the number of rolls is going to be very close to sum of all possible results divided by the number of possible results.

Which really means nothing.

To really mathhammer something you need to look at the standard deviation of all possible results. However, calculating it is very time consuming and most people have either don't remember it from school/college or have never learned/understood it in the first place. That's why everyone is using the much easier to calculate averages which give somewhat of a ballpark figure of what to expect.

Since you are just rolling two dice for a SAG, getting a result relatively far below (or above) average is much more like than when rolling 60 dice for a unit of shoota boyz. That's called the law of large numbers, an ork's best friend in statistics.

I think that we can all agree given the current state of the ork codex it is very hard to win. There is not much in the ork codex worth taking. Our army wide special rules, waaagh and mob up, are very lack luster and every unit in the codex is overpriced. There is no reliable way to get your boyz across the table. Trukks are just bad, looted wagons worse and battle wagons are just ok. Our upgrades are even worse. For a nob with a power klaw you can literally have 7 boyz, for a big shoota you can have another boy, for a big choppa another boy, for a rocket almost 2 boyz. An ork boy is not even really a decent choice of something to take. For the same cost as an ork boy you can have a kroot who has a simmilar enough stat line but also has steath ruins, infiltrate and, outflank. The fact of the matter is if you play orks expect to loose. Against a halfway decent opponent you will not be able to win. Just play them as a fun punching bag for your opponent and hope our codex comes soon.

Orks are not nearly that bad off. If you're losing literally every match the problem might not be in the codex.

You can say that i guess however, I disagree. The ork codex IS that bad... A DA assault marine is the same price as a stormboy, a kroot the same as an ork boy, A mega nob costs more than a terminator. With prices like these you cannot expect to win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and just to explain what my previous post said...
stormboy: a boy witha jumpack that goes an extra d6 but may crash and kill the boy
Space marine with a jumpack: 3+ save, higher strength and leadership, higher BS, has and they shall know know fear.
which would you rather have for your points?
Ork boy: fearless if they are in a squad of more than 10 6+ armor save same s, ws, ld. fet fleet for 1 turn per game. have furious charge, have same I and LD, better toughness 1 more attack.
Kroot: a pretty poor troop choice for the tau. Have infiltrate move through cover stealth forest, outflank if you take a kroot hound it even has acute senses, access to sniper rounds. Better BS longer range gun.
Which would you rather have for your points?
Megga nob: almost equal to a terminator marine in every way except. NO IVN save! this make them pretty much terrible because if your not shooting or attacking these guys with ap2 then you are a horrible player. they are 5 more points than a terminator... the bad terminators... you can get terminators for as much as 13 points less than these guys.

enough said or would you like more xamples of units that are better than ork units at less cost? How about we compair the rhino/drop pod to the ork trukk? or the ork boy to a termigaunt/hormagaunt?

Kroot are a poor troop choice?
Mega nobs suck?
AP 2 abounds?

Please compare a boy to a termagant. Please. The boy is better in nearly every way.

Regardless, if this is how you think then there's no chance ill convince you. There are successful ork players - in this very thread even. What you're saying is that their opponents are bad or they're lying. That's a poor stance to take.

rothrich, I agree with you, The 4th Edition Ork Codex can not be competitive enough to face off with any other army, without being extremely lucky with your die rolls. Creating a competitive force, you are left with only 7 units from a codex of 27 choices. Those units are:

Nob Bikers are the only unit that can challenge any opponent. they are extremely expensive and with low point games, they end up deathstar'ing your Orks. Goes without saying Warboss Biker is a must, it turns your Nobs into troops and is very hard to kill.

Lootas are always good and with 6th they got even better. They are also very easy to kill and should be the focus of any opponent to rid the board of them in the 1st turn. If you built a force with keeping them around beyond that, you built your force to lose even friendly games.

Thraka can survive almost anything, he can challenge, he makes Waaagh! worth casting. He's very expensive, slow and purposeful. He is great with a unit of Meganobs in a Battlewagon. I've also attached him to Snikrot and he did some serious damage.

Battlewagons the only vehicle that can limit what your opponent will shot at it with. The Def Rolla scares the pants off any opponent and if they are shooting the battlewagon instead of your Lootas it will be their loss if you never get to smash into their force.

Last is the Big Gunz, Kannons. Very cheap toughness 7 Grots. If you have a few points to spare and an open heavy support slot, these are always good to have around especially the BS 3.

Other than these few units, everything else is pretty much cannon fodder. Upgrading their weapons tends to be a waste of points, since they will probably never get to use them.

Orks can't shoot so they rely on a lot of dice to accomplish their goal. Single shot weapons are worthless, doesn't matter how powerful they are. Shootas are only good in 20+ units, Big Shootas are the same.

Full Gretchin units have a 50/50 *correction* 67/43 chance of routing at the loss of 9. They are only worth taking if you don't have any other options. And that's it for your troop options, upgrading to 'ard boyz is just another waste of points.

Yes, some of us Ork players are just sitting on our hands and hoping that GW does something nice for the Orks, because even by their own admission the current Orks will never be able to place in any of their tournaments.

termagaunts have access to poison and are fearless and have rage (I think) when outside of synaps range they are cheaper than a boy and have fleet for the entire game not just one turn. They only have 1 less attack and can be taken in large squad sizes as well. given the choice of termagaunts or ork boys i think that I would rather have the termagaunt.

I Don't think that meganobs suck I just think that they are far too expensive for what you get. 2 wounds is nothing compared to an inv sv and they should not be 5 points more than a terminator, they should be 5 points less than a terminator.

Wait that is a hormaguant...

Ok then termagaunts. They give you access to the tervagon as a troops choice which makes more and more termaguants. The tervagon continues to make more and more "free" termagaunts each turn while your squad of ork boys who were more expensive just die off. They also have access to an assault 3 gun and have a bs3 if I'm not mistaken.

Compared to a fire warrior kroots are considered the weaker choice in the tau codex for troops.


When I was at gamesday I played across from a new DA player who claimed to get stomped by his friends orks every time that they played. My friend played across from this ork player. The ork player moved his truck 6 in got out 6 in shot and then assaulted. Do you see what the ork player did wrong there? Meanwhile I was in assault with his friend. His friend had a singel unit of terminators. I had 2 units of zombies and a unit of chaos spawns. he finnished of one squad of zombies and then tried to consolidate. I told him that he was still in combat with my other two units and that he had to stay in the combat. He really had no clue as to what the rule was. It seems to me that many of people who play this game do not know the rules. Or maybe they are just to lazy to look something up if they do not know what the rule is. The fact of the matter is that the orks are the weakest codex in 40k by a lot. They should never win against any of the new codexes that have come in the past 3 years. They can win against some armies like the current SM dex, (that is going to change next month) other orks are a good fight for them, imperial guard can still be a good fight for them, but for the most part. orks should lose every time.

I can't believe that if the Orks lose most or all of their games, it must be either that list taken or how the Ork Player used them. Because in some people minds "the Ork can't be that bad - I always win when I field them."

The Truth is in the pudding. Just to list some things my Orks are facing: Drop Pods, Mowdoc, jaws of the world wolf, Eldrad, Doom of Mal'tai, Logan, Librarian, Heldrake, Long Fangs, Hive Guard, Khorne, Land Raider, Pathfinders, swarmlord, and on and on. The only thing that Orks have on their side is that most people are building their tournament list to take on Space Marines not Orks. thugh it gives them no advantage.

All I can say to people currently playing Super Winning 4th Edition Orks (Not using IA 8 Dread Mob to supplement or ally with, because it's not allowed at sanctioned events). Take this army to a REAL tournament (one is being held about once a month somewhere in the world) and actually prove GW wrong and get ranking because there isn't a player is currently ranked with an Ork army list.

First, I would recommend you tell the players you are up against, to build a real list, proxy if they have to. and put it up against your super duper Orks. If you are still winning more than 30% of your games. then you have cracked the code and are doing what no other player can do - you should quit your job and make a living playing 40k.

Sleg I saw this post and saw that you were getting beat up by all of these people. I had to step in and reinforce what you were saying. Lets just cross our fingers and hope that we get our dex before the nids get theirs. People want to say that sisters need it more because they only have a WD codex but their WD codex is better than out 4th ed written with 5th in mind codex...

rothrich wrote:
termagaunts have access to poison and are fearless when outside of synaps range they are cheaper than a boy and have fleet for the entire game not just one turn. They only have 1 less attack and can be taken in large squad sizes as well. given the choice of termagaunts or ork boys i think that I would rather have the termagaunt.

Hormagaunts. And with toxin sacs they're 2 points more than a boy. They're Fearless inside Synapse, not outside.
And they have no shooting attack. If you don't see how detrimental that is in 6th edition there's no point continuing. If you honestly would prefer Hormies over boys you're a fool. You do realize they're T3 right?

ok then termagaunts. They give you access to the tervagon as a troops choice which makes more and more termaguants. The tervagon continues to make more and more "free" termagaunts each turn while your squad of ork boys who were more expensive just die off. they also have access to an assault 3 and have a bs3 if im not mistaken.

So the only good thing about Termagants is the Tervigon as a troop.
And yes - they have access to an assault 3 gun. Which doubles their cost to almost double a boy.

Compared to a fire warrior kroots are considered the weaker choice in the tau codex for troops.

It depends entirely on the rest of the build. Kroot are nowhere near a bad troop.

The ork player moved his truck 6 in got out 6 in shot and then assaulted. Do you see what the ork player did wrong there?

Page 79 says you can disembark before or after moving the transport as long as it hasn't move over 6".
Page 79 explains you can disembark 6".
Open Topped allows you to assault after disembarking (page 33 Assault Vehicle).

Perhaps you could explain?

It seems to me that many of people who play this game do not know the rules.

Heh.

The fact of the matter is that the orks are the weakest codex in 40k by a lot. They sould never win agains any of the new codexes that have come in the past 3 years. They can win against some armies like the current SM dex, (that is going to change next month) other orks are a good fight for them, imperial guard can still be a good fight for them, but for the most part. orks should lose every time.

So you really are saying that Jidmah's opponents are dumb or that Jidmah is lying.
Cool, thanks for invalidating everything you say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have some magic formula that says a KFF is worthless also?

Ithought that you could either shoot or assault. I must have gotten this confused with 5th ed. looking at the rulebook I do not see any restrictions about both shooting and assaulting. And I am not saying that anything is worthless I am saying that they are simply worth less than what they cost inside the codex. regardless termigants are fearless inside and have rage outside. 2 more points and my boyz could hack down any MC in the game? Sure ill take it thank you! and slugga boys who really are the ones we should be compairing them to might as well not have a shooting attack. they only hit 1/3 of the time and even when they do wound most of the time the hits get shrugged off by your opponent and they only lose 1 or 2 models out of the 30 shots you just made.The fact that termigaunts allow access to the tervigon is what makes them good. What of it? what do ork boys give you access to? The ork trukk.... If you are happy with the ork codex and think that there are others out there who need a new dex more than them please tell me who and why. I don't claim to know all the rules. If I don't know the rules I look them up.

rothrich wrote:
You can either shoot or assault after getting out of your trukk you cannot do both.

Citation required. There is no rule saying any such thing (as long as the weapons fired are Assault or Pistols).

I don't claim to know all the rules. If I don't know the rules I look them up.

So please - look this one up and prove me wrong. Instead of claiming others don't know the rules prove it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: and it wasn't a 5th edition thing either.

You can't compare point costs across codexs - you just can't.
Perhaps ... Stop comparing and start trying to get value? If you consider your codex to be the bottom, you'll never get better.

I did look it up and apologize for being wrong. maybe it was 4th then I really don't know where I got this from. Like I said I am sorry. The thing is you can not get value from the orks. I have playde orks for years, I love orks however, I really just do not see a way to win with the dex in the current condition. They do not lose every time they just lose against armies that have newer codexes. They can do just fine against armies with 5th ed codexes. They are really no match for CSM DA or tau I know this because these are the armies that I play against time and time again. The DE are a verry beatable army necrons not so much. I am very tired of people on this thread calling one another a liar or saying that I called someone a liar. rigeld2.... Tell me with all honesty that the orks do not need any kind of update. That they are fine the way they are and that they can compete with any tourney list in the game. If you can show me a website where an ork player has won a tournament since 6th has dropped using only units from Codex: Orks I will be quiet and won't post again.

rothrich wrote:
The thing is you can not get value from the orks. I have playde orks for years, I love orks however, I really just do not see a way to win with the dex in the current condition. They do not lose every time they just lose against armies that have newer codexes. They can do just fine against armies with 5th ed codexes. They are really no match for CSM DA or tau I know this because these are the armies that I play against time and time again. The DE are a verry beatable army necrons not so much. I am very tired of people on this thread calling one another a liar or saying that I called someone a liar. rigeld2.... Tell me with all honesty that the orks do not need any kind of update. That they are fine the way they are and that they can compete with any tourney list in the game. If you can show me a website where an ork player has won a tournament since 6th has dropped using only units from Codex: Orks I will be quiet and won't post again.

You said that against a halfway decent opponent orks cannot win. Which means that the people who are winning with orks are either lying about winning or they're playing poor opponents.

I can't and have t ever said that orks don't need an update. But there's a world of difference between "need an update" and "bottom of the barrel can't ever win unless the opponent is a drooling moron." In my local meta orcs do okay. Not amazing, but okay. I've lost to very well focused and played Battlewagon lists and I've tabled an opponent using a very unfocused whatever looked good list.

OK then it seems like we can find some middle ground in here. The question is not really can they win or not? I Never said that anyone was lying about winning. Poor opponents... maybe they are poor opponents I really do not know. I think that the goal of any codex should be that all units in the codex have a place. This is not the case with the orks. There are just too many units that are very very weak. They need an update and they really really struggle to get a win. With great rolls on the ork part and poor rolls on your opponents parts you will probably win. however in pretty much every case if one player rolls really well all game and the other rolls very poor the whole game the player who rolls well will win every time not just "probably" win. It is a real shame when you cannot take units that you like because they have no value in game.

Every - literally, every - codex has units that are not worth taking. Pretending its something only orks suffer from is ludicrous.

And it's not just about rolls - the only time I rolled poorly in my Battlewagon games was for psyker powers. His Lootas only ever rolled 1s for number of shots.

Every build is scissors to another builds rock. If you're consistently getting stomped perhaps its time to remember the saying "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result".

Whatever dude I'm done. I have tried to find middle ground with you. You apparently are just unable to compromise. The orks are a terrible army and are the bottom of the barrel if you want to believe it or not. If it makes you feel better about losing to them by believing that they are "just not that bad" then go ahead but I will not be responding to any more of your posts.

Yup - that post exemplifies "middle ground".

rigeld2 wrote:
Every - literally, every - codex has units that are not worth taking. Pretending its something only orks suffer from is ludicrous.

True, but orks have more than usual. Most armies have 1-2 units that are either utter trash (Vespid for instance) or CAN be viable but noone takes because they compete with a better alternative so noone takes them.

Useless Ork units include:
Kommandos
Burnas
Killa Kanz
Deffdreadz
Looted Wagons
Flash Gitz
Burna-Bommer
Blitza-Bommer

Not really useless but not as viable units include:

Deffkoptas (Useful, but with BS2 even though theyre TL they can be a waste of points easily)
Warbuggies (Alternative to Deffkoptas in some peoples mind)
Weirdboyz (3 Dakkajets pretty much demand you take a weirdboy, thats about all hes good for)
Warbikerz (Regular ones. They are overpriced and easy to get rid of for how strong they are)

There is a HUGE difference in worthless/almost worthless models between orks and other codexes. This is the problem orks have, we only have 2 viable lists and both can be countered easily (bikernobz or MANz following a wheeled force, green tide supported by loota/kannon fire). I can play my orks and have fun in a non-serious environment because i can bring units i have more fun with that might not perform as well as they should but i have more fun using them. Soon as the tournament gloves come off i get slaughtered because every other race has a 2-3 unit compilation in their army that cost maybe 500pts total that hardcounters the crap outta both these lists, or shuts it down enough to where i need some awesome rolls to win.
EDIT: And for the record all it takes to counter both these lists is a high volume of fire. Random big gun i know every army has to pop the BW if i have them, 30+ medium-strength shot spam to wipe me off the board as my 4+ or 5+ covers wont suffice against that much dakka.

Burnas are useless?

Hormagaunts
Genestealers
Rippers
Shrikes
Sky-Slashers
Pyrovore

That's just the codex I'm most familiar with. And really, the Pyrovore is bad enough to count twice.

Remember - I've not said that the ork codex is top tier.
But statements like "worst ever" "only wins vs bad opponents" etc... They're just plain wrong.

And ignoring allies in 6th edition is even more ludicrous

Yes burnas are useless. 15pts a pop, FAQ ruined their sole purpose (burnawagons), they have a t-shirt save and really nothing special in melee unless they dont shoot. And low enough numbers with that crap durability to be easy to push away even with just infantry fire.

Tyranids also have what more than TWICE the units in their codex than orks? and you still listed less units than i did.

But this isnt a comparing argument, this is about orks.
I agree ignoring allies in 6th is a pretty big mistake since theres some pretty insane lists coming about involving allies. But orks have no battlebrothers and all that i can think of that would be viable to bring youre better off allying orks in and bringing 2 30man blobs than you are using them as main force.
What would you bring, if anything, to help orks deal with other races countering their only viable lists so easily?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yes burnas are useless. 15pts a pop, FAQ ruined their sole purpose (burnawagons), they have a t-shirt save and really nothing special in melee unless they dont shoot. And low enough numbers with that crap durability to be easy to push away even with just infantry fire.

Burna wagons are still available. Instead of having 10 Burnas you have 9 Burnas and a Mek.

Tyranids also have what more than TWICE the units in their codex than orks?

Not counting characters it's 27 Tyranids 23 Orks unless I miscounted. Hardly twice.

and you still listed less units than i did.

I also forgot Warriors and Lictors. And many would say Carnifexes and Tyrant Guard.

I agree ignoring allies in 6th is a pretty big mistake since theres some pretty insane lists coming about involving allies. But orks have no battlebrothers and all that i can think of that would be viable to bring youre better off allying orks in and bringing 2 30man blobs than you are using them as main force.
What would you bring, if anything, to help orks deal with other races countering their only viable lists so easily?

Something to present a long range threat since the big weakness is being shot on the way in.

Vineheart, you forgot a few useless units from the orks
Nobs not on a bike
tankbustas
stormboyz

They are all way over costed and have limited in game uses.
really it is easier to list units that do have a use

shoota boyz
nob bikes
big gunz
lootas
big mek
warboss




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyrant guard allow you to take a prime with your tyrant... hardly useless, hormagaunts are great in large numbers with poison, they can do some serious damage to monsters, ask any player that uses them.

A walking Tyrant is not as good in 6th as a Flyrant. Which makes Tyrant Guard as useless as many of the "useless" units you've listed.

The mek "upgrade" is useless in a squad of burnas...

rothrich wrote:
The mek "upgrade" is useless in a squad of burnas...

Demonstrably false.
You can only wound what is in range of the weapons fired. That's ~8" for Template weapons. Even a Mek with a slugga (that's the pistol, right?) increases that by 4".

See, knowing rules is a good thing.

A walking tyrant with tyrant guard and a prime is ridiculously tough! Carnefexes in squads of 3 are super tough. Hardly as bad as any of the units listed as useless for the orks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hahahah! sick that big shoota in there instead of another burna! or better yet take a rokkit or a kustom megga blaster! The mek doesn't even raise their leadership! You have no idea what you are talking about if you honestly think that being forced to take a mek in the place of another burna is a useful thing.

Carnifexes are as tough as 12 marines and cost about that much.

A walking Tyrant with A single guard and Prime is close to 400 points... And isn't as tough as you think it's a good unit because of Iron Arm abuse, but you lose out on any chance of Skyfire in your army. Have fun with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rothrich wrote:
hahahah! sick that big shoota in there instead of another burna! or better yet take a rokkit or a kustom megga blaster! The mek doesn't even raise their leadership! You have no idea what you are talking about if you honestly think that being forced to take a mek in the place of another burna is a useful thing.

Lets see... Burma wagons go out of style because of an FAQ that limits where wounds can be allocated.
With the swap of a single model Burna wagons are exactly as effective as they were before.

Yeah going from killing everything under the template to wiping out entire units is totally not useful. Sorry for knowing the rules and how they work.

you can take a harpy right? Honestly dude you are trying to say that nids need an update more than orks. Nids need an update too. why don't you take the tau and try to find as many useless units? Even blood angels are better off than orks maybe you can try to say that they need an update before orks... The next three codexes up are orks nids and IG. There is a reason for this. Nids and orks lack skyfire, have too many units that don't have a place in an army that is even built with the intention of a friendly game. They have NO builds that can be used for tournament play, They have tons of units in their dex that are either missing models or have models from the early 90's. But if you want me to say it I guess I will. Nids are better than orks. A good nid player should be able to stomp the orks if they take the right list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That wagon should never make it into range if you are a smart player.

Burnas are great in Dread Mob where they can, you know, actually get a fething trukk

MANz are alright, they should go on the useful list.

Theres other good stuff in Dread Mob as well. Grot Bomm, Supa Kannons, Grot Tanks... the GBL in particular approaches OP tier

Dakkamite, thank you for your opinion. However, my argument is that Codex: Orks is terrible and extremely hard to win with. Imperial armor books really don't count in my mind. You should not be FORCED to buy forgeworld. Forgeworld is a way to use units that are supposed to be supplemental for campaigns written out in the AI books. They really have no place in friendly games and are really not written with any kind of balance in mind the way that the like new hardback codecies seem to be.

rothrich wrote:
you can take a harpy right?

And Harpies only have blast weapons. Guess what doesnt work on Flyers?

Honestly dude you are trying to say that nids need an update more than orks. Nids need an update too.

No, I'm not trying to say that. At all. I'm saying that you have a very negative attitude about the ork codex and that's stopping you from making and using workable lists.

why don't you take the tau and try to find as many useless units? Even blood angels are better off than orks maybe you can try to say that they need an update before orks... The next three codexes up are orks nids and IG. There is a reason for this. Nids and orks lack skyfire, have too many units that don't have a place in an army that is even built with the intention of a friendly game. They have NO builds that can be used for tournament play, They have tons of units in their dex that are either missing models or have models from the early 90's. But if you want me to say it I guess I will. Nids are better than orks. A good nid player should be able to stomp the orks if they take the right list.

So - a codex is either at the top or worthless to you?
That's what it sounds like you're saying, and that's plain silly.

That wagon should never make it into range if you are a smart player.

Oh - so it's a threat? Gee, that means it needs to be dealt with.
It's almost like multiple threats marching at your opponent are a good thing...
And wagons cross the table all the time. 12" + 6" flat out + 6" the second turn is lots of templates being dropped.
You're acting like Burna wagons were never a thing.

That FAQ needs to be FAQ'd honestly. I agree with you on that another gun increases the "kill range" but i come across people all the time, even those that USED to use flamer units, that think since its a different strength its not extending the wound pool range. I can see their argument because otherwise wtf was the point of the FAQ? i'd prefer to just ignore it all together but of course people wont take that too kindly when it means removing 10+ more models due to a burna wagon getting in range somehow.
Its a gimick tactic anyway so i'd rather just avoid the headaches of trying to convince 50% of the people i face theyre reading the rule wrong. When someone who used to run drop pod flamers stops running them because he thinks the other guns dont increase the kill zone, and he normally loves that unit, its pretty much impossible to change his mind since all his arguments will be "My unit does that but not anymore! So neither does yours!"

im severely hoping the next gaming group i find when i move in a few weeks doesnt have anyone like that. I rarely use flame templates, but this FAQ makes me not even want to use them in a fun game (mass burnas WAAAAAGH!)

And yea i did forget tankbustas/stormboyz/footnobz lol woops. One of the big gunz is pointless too since it defeats the point of big gunz...dirt cheap and still does something. Zzap Kannons are strong, but expensive and suicidal as any 11 or 12 rolls kills a grot and it costs 15pts more per gun (almost double) for an AP2 and a possible strength increase, average strength cut.

EDIT: And harpies are a joke i'd rate them weaker than kommandos lol. If they had a 3+ armor i think they would be somewhat viable but 4+ is penned sooooo easy...the few times i ever saw one i just plastered it out of the sky with loota fire before it even got to shoot at my green tide.
And unless its a big game, orks rarely have more than 1 threat after bringing battlewagons to make burnas remotely effective to begin with. Its always either almost no boyz and 2 threatening things riding in the BWs, or enough boyz to do something rite proppa and only 1 threat (hence why i take bikernobz since they ride behind the wagons)

I wish you all the luck. Ive played orks for 5 years and can't seem to get anything out of them in this edition of shooting. Ive also played Tau for years and now that this new dex has dropped I havent seen an Ork player get a win against Tau. Ive fought Orks multiple times and Farsight Bomb (probably the thing you're going to see the most of and I know people are tired of hearing it's name) can and will kill 33.5 Boyz a turn from just shooting. Thats a squad of boyz dead every turn and theres isnt anything you can do about it. It rerolls to hit, ignores cover and rerolls ones to wound (farsights preferred enemy orks). It can declare stubborn so you wont sweep it plus it has Hit and Run at I5 so you can't tar pit the unit. Plus with the amount of attacks that unit has it will probably beat you in combat (21 attacks at S5, 14 attacks at S3, 4 attacks at S5 AP2, and 4 attacks at S4), and thats after you get overwatched by shots that reroll to hit and wounds of 1 due to farsights preferred enemy (Orks). Not trying to tell you there's no point in playing your army but after I skimmed your thread it didnt seem that anyone mentioned the most devastating unit in the game. I figured you had the right to know before it just surprised you. Plus given the knowledge you may be able to better prepare yourself for whats to come

Although considering how long this has gotten I probably missed the part where this was mentioned already.

Um, unless im missing something Farsights preferred enemy orks is only for him not his whole unit. So either his blade guarantees a kill, or his single plasma does not the whole squad.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Um, unless im missing something Farsights preferred enemy orks is only for him not his whole unit. So either his blade guarantees a kill, or his single plasma does not the whole squad.

You may want to read preferred enemy. "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..."

Preferred Enemy is a "if a unit contains at least one model with..."

Well shizz i totally flopped that one lol.

Guess that reinforces my beliefs that preferred enemy should never be on a specific race. It just gives you an unusual advantage that normally doesnt exist.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well shizz i totally flopped that one lol.

Guess that reinforces my beliefs that preferred enemy should never be on a specific race. It just gives you an unusual advantage that normally doesnt exist.

I completely agree. As of right now I feel in a game between players of equal skill and average rolls Orks have absolutely no chance in winning against Tau. And if I remember correctly in the Farsight supplement the entire army gains the preferred enemy (Orks) special rule for free. This is completely ridiculous and that's coming from a Tau player.

Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

The only time i'm running a green tide again is after taking some heavy duty painkillers.

Last time i ran one was a three-game tournament with 2 1/12 hour rounds, and my back was not appreciative...

I'm getting too old to green-tide these days, though there is something glorious about seeing 180+ orks on the table.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well shizz i totally flopped that one lol.

Guess that reinforces my beliefs that preferred enemy should never be on a specific race. It just gives you an unusual advantage that normally doesnt exist.

I completely agree. As of right now I feel in a game between players of equal skill and average rolls Orks have absolutely no chance in winning against Tau. And if I remember correctly in the Farsight supplement the entire army gains the preferred enemy (Orks) special rule for free. This is completely ridiculous and that's coming from a Tau player.

Only in melee though (except Farsight and his unit ofc).

Yeah thats a big issue with green tide, i usually dont run more than 90 boyz because of it. So much time bent over. I move faster than most but its because im guesstimating good distances rather than actually looking at it, so im not 100% properly spaced (probably 1-3 more boyz hit by a pi plate than optimum spacing allows).
And my lower back has issues as it is, any idea how hard it is for someone with lower back problems to do 50+ situps in a minute to pass a military physical test every 6 months? My back HATES that test almost as much as i hate green tide bending me over the table (wow that sounded gay)

That is another reason why I wouldn't play Green Tide at the moment. It's way to taxing to play and there's some very hard counters for it that are very popular (artillery guard and Tau being the main two that come to mind).

That's exactly the reason I don't play green tide either. I am a pretty fast player (which gives me an excuse to get miffed when people take 40 minute turns) but green tide take soooooo long to play. I definitely wouldn't think it's a green tide though. One thunderfire cannon can almost destroy a whole mob in one go.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

But wait - I thought it was literally impossible for orks to win unless their opponent is a fool!
Surely I haven't been misled!

What is the world coming to, I have to agree with rigeld here.

Orks are not bottom tier, most codexes still struggle against the tide. Few armies can put out the firepower to really threaten that many boys.

It's also not an auto lose to tau, it really depends on the mission being played. Most tau lists I've seen skimp on the troops choices so just kill their troop choices. Even if they can kill 1 mob of 30 boys a turn, after 5 turn the orks should still have a full mob left.

It seems most people shy away from the tide for other reasons (time, pain, tedious) than because they're "bottom tier."

Or in a tourney barely making it to turn 3 before times up. It could be clear you will probably win the game you just did not have enough time to get into position. I started Orks going towards green tide and quickly added other things after a few tourney's where I never finished a game. I don't like to be slow played and hate having a game come down to what turn we make it to rather than who would have actually won the game had it played out.

Although without green tide tau managed to table me by turn 2 before my reserves could come in not sure if the tide would do that much better.

So far the biggest problem I have encountered with playing Green Tide is movement. But there never is enough Time, if you are going to field Green Tide you have to play with a time limit and so far this isn't for the green tide player. It's for your Opponent who is basically stupefied by the massive army coming at him, They tend to waste a lot of time just looking at the masses.

I think that where the orks are concerned it's a case of the written fluff being greater than their actual use, they really are not a horde army - there are so many other hordes that just do it better and cheaper. Orks are rally ment to get to the assault phase they basically tear apart everything. The problem has always been getting them there with enough of them to actually do the needed damage. If any army knows they are facing a Green Tide, all they have to do is pick one side or the other and deploy their entire army there. Focus on one unit at a time and force the ork player to spend the entire game moving instead of fighting. Space Wolves do it best but all space marines including chaos have this advantage as well, Nids, Eldar, Tau, Demons, Imperial Guard, and even Ork oppenents will destroy a Green tide or an ork army with massive boyz using this simple tactic. If the Green Tide brings a KFF, they can focus on shooting the Big Meks unit first (since they all have the same cover), once that unit is gone it's back to just regular shooting. The other thing that the Big Mek hinders is shooting the Lootas. The moment your opponent realizes that LOS on lootas provides the same coverage and every other unit, they will be taken apart first.

The only thing a green tide has in its favor is they can only take out so much in a turn. Most army list are built to destroy vehicles, which for the most part is your toys. I have found that the more diverse your list is, the less effective it will be. For instance a single Dakkajet wont strike fear in your opponent, since most unit can snapfire it out of the sky. 3 Dakkajets, with a weirdboy rerolling everytime for a 6 - can be devastating.

A green tide list with 164 models will turn the battlefield green (purple in my case). it may not win but your opponent will have to claw out their victory and if you play with time limits, the orks might win partly on the fact that your opponent couldn't get their reserves on the field. Twice, I got slay the warlord this way. Playing is an exercise in patience (which mine are always pushed to their limit). It's will not be an exciting nor thrilling game. Green tide is all about attrition and once it starts removing enemy units, it becomes more difficult for your opponent to take out your units. For my group 1500 pts should never go over 2 hours - we have done it and afterwards for the winner the victory is never sweet. I don't know what the limit for tournament are now, but a few years back, they were hard lined at a hour. I know of some ork players that never even made it to turn 2 in that time. The last time I used green tide we were able to get to turn 3, fairly consistently, but never saw turn 4.

It's why nob bikes rule, The Painboy gets to shoot and protect the unit with Cybork and FNP and the Waaagh Banner! is just icing. I've made many list and played all sorts of Different and wacky orks - but I have to say if 705 points (Taking up an HQ and a Troop slot) aren't being spent on this unit - there is no way an Ork army can compete. Can Orks still lose? Yes! but it's almost always a closer game.

Dakkamite, I agree with you, more than you know. I'm very jealious that your group allows Forgeworld as an ally supplement. How that would help my Orks, I can't begin to tell you. With the IA 8 Dread Mob list, I can't see anyone taking Green Tide, a Warboss biker, Zhadsnark and Gutsmeks (Or 2 Warboss Bikers and Zhadsnark) would be amazing to have. Speed Freaks are my perfered list currently, IA 8 would only be an improvement.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

But wait - I thought it was literally impossible for orks to win unless their opponent is a fool!
Surely I haven't been misled!

sirlynchmob wrote:
What is the world coming to, I have to agree with rigeld here.

Orks are not bottom tier, most codexes still struggle against the tide. Few armies can put out the firepower to really threaten that many boys.

It's also not an auto lose to tau, it really depends on the mission being played. Most tau lists I've seen skimp on the troops choices so just kill their troop choices. Even if they can kill 1 mob of 30 boys a turn, after 5 turn the orks should still have a full mob left.

It seems most people shy away from the tide for other reasons (time, pain, tedious) than because they're "bottom tier."

The logistics were a pain, but moving 180 models per turn was considerably less gak than I thought it would be (still terrible though). The real issues were the RPS element - auto win against armies that haven't gone the path of spammed templates and auto-loss against the few that have, and the fact that though this army was as powerful and irresistable as the tide, it was also as interactive. I felt completely surplus to the requirements of the game, as my 180 models could win the game on autopilot instructions of "move towards closest enemy or objective, shoot, assault where possible" and still do perfectly fine.

It honestly felt like playing a thousand dollar, four hour version of rock paper scissors.

sirlynchmob wrote:
What is the world coming to, I have to agree with rigeld here.

Orks are not bottom tier, most codexes still struggle against the tide. Few armies can put out the firepower to really threaten that many boys.

It's also not an auto lose to tau, it really depends on the mission being played. Most tau lists I've seen skimp on the troops choices so just kill their troop choices. Even if they can kill 1 mob of 30 boys a turn, after 5 turn the orks should still have a full mob left.

It seems most people shy away from the tide for other reasons (time, pain, tedious) than because they're "bottom tier."

It's not an auto loose to Tau? Lol did I mention that at 1850 I can also have 3 riptides? Three large blast per turn with secondary weapon firing? Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC? Cause that makes it to were if I position myself right I can kill two boyz squads in a turn with 1 unit... That doesnt count in the Riptide large blasts or my troops (even if I only have 2) shooting. I don't have to worry about objectives if your army is dead.

Green tide doesn't work too well against necrons either, at least for me.

I've rarely got past the midfield line with Orks running an infantry list.

There is a big difference between never winning and being the bottom army. I'm saying that with the current Ork list you will lose more than you will win.

If you opponent sees they are playing against green tide. with the exception of their Drop Pods leaving the reserve pods empty. Or taking their units out of their Mysetic Spores and not leaving them on reserve.

Even a heavy tankbusting army should claim victory against green tide. Like Dakkamite said the Orks are playing a game of Roshambo and they are always saying Paper. All you opponent has to learn is to not be a rock, instead be sissors.
Let the force bottleneck and stumble through terrain, while one by one each ork unit is eliminated.
So far Doom is not very effective against large units but it does what is is suppose to do and that's dely. Mowdoc is destruction to a green tide. Hive Guard don't care if you are in terrain or have a KFF. Fist of the World Wolf shoots a 24" path right though several units. Flame Thowers are devisating, while Meltagun not so. But shooting bolters can wreak the orks. Heldrake just creams a tide unit. Landraider with Khorne inside basically does what ever it wants, tank shocking units and removing all that can't get out of its way.

I don't want to talk about Tau and Eldar. Orks had trouble fitting into 5th edition. Now their very outdated codex really doesn't mesh well in the new rules. If we could access 'ere we go, 2nd edition. I would be singing a totally different tune. The 4th edition codex stripped all of wacky orky things out. For those that can make it work, I'm happy for you, it still wont change the fact that the other armies need to hold back.

Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC?

Um, did you also forget to mention that the Puretide chip only affects the model using it? Tank/Monster Hunter and Stubborn are rules that only require 1 model to have it, Furious Charge and the other rules are by a model by model basis.

Even with it i fail to see how you would beat orks

 Sleg wrote:
There is a big difference between never winning and being the bottom army. I'm saying that with the current Ork list you will lose more than you will win.

That's not what you started the thread saying, so that's progress.

If you opponent sees they are playing against green tide. with the exception of their Drop Pods leaving the reserve pods empty. Or taking their units out of their Mysetic Spores and not leaving them on reserve.

You cannot drop an empty spore. Tyranids don't have the same options Marines do.

it still wont change the fact that the other armies need to hold back.

Sigh... That's simply not true.

This discussion has proven to me two things.

1# the KFF is awesome

2# even orks can troll

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC?

Um, did you also forget to mention that the Puretide chip only affects the model using it? Tank/Monster Hunter and Stubborn are rules that only require 1 model to have it, Furious Charge and the other rules are by a model by model basis.

Even with it i fail to see how you would beat orks

I meant to say stubborn at that point. The Puretide chip gives so many rules that I forget which are which sometimes. I would declare stubborn so even if they win I should pass LD and wipe the unit in the following turn. And on the charge I have 5 attacks from farsight at I5 at S5 AP2. I should hit with 4 and wound with 3. I have 5 S4 attacks from Shadowsun at I4. I should hit with 3 and wound with 1.5 of them. I then have 26 S3 attacks at I4. I hit with 14 total. I'll wound with roughly 5. At I2 (Same as the Orks) I'll have 28 S5 attacks from the crisis suits. Ill hit with 16 attacks and wound with 13. That comes to a grand total of 3 dead from Farsight and 19.5 wounds from the unit. They will then pass 3 armor saves leaving 9.5 Orks left (counting the one dead from my 1 shot during the shooting phase). Assuming they got to attack with every model left (even though given the foot print on a 30 man boyz squad is HUGE so that probably wont happen) they will have 60 attacks and will hit with 40 and wound with about 13. Between rolling save on drones and crisis suits (mixed saves) lets say I do half on 3+ and half on 4+. I should fail 2 on 3+ and 3.5 on 4+. The Nob (assuming Im stupid enough to assault at an angle to where he can get his attacks in or unable to avoid it) kills 3 drones. That's only 8.5 total wounds while I dealt them 19.5 wounds, even if the nob kills 3 suits he dealt me 11.5 while I dealt 19.5. That should be enough to require a leadership test of which they will more than likely fail and I sweep them at I5. That's how you beat Orks in CC with Farsights squad. YAY MATH (I think)!

Except at only killing 19.5 you might not remove fearless...

ive never had a full 30boy blob get in an assault. Theres always a few dead from before. I imagine hed remove fearless.

Preferred enemy really should be on unit types not a race. Thats just unfair to that race lol

Well, I posted on page one. I took 180 boyz to a tourney and got my a$$ handed to me. The terrain was a problem and I won one game vs Daemons, but it REALLY would've been another loss had we finished. So just FYI. And if you say, "it's the way you played it..." Think about it first. My ENTIRE deployment is orks. One game I didn't even kill a single model. Admittedly it was the much reviled frog people... but still.
My $0.02

Dok G, yikes! sorry to hear that.
I have only used the green tide in 6th for testing, basically it started out helping a bud (chaos marines) to see the limits of their shooting potential.
It was the first time I didn't use the KFF because I just wanted to bring more Boyz (inadvertently creating a true Green Tide) and I actually slaughtered them. I didn't keep track of how many I lost because of no cover (it was a lot) and my opponent spread out his force and basically tried to take them all on at the same time. This was when I noticed that the dreaded Terrain was actually helping me - So (for me alone it seems) I posted my findings and wondered if others did the same. So far only a few have done this, but with a slight change in my opponents tactics (not changing their list, specifically to stop the Green Tide), my great and wonderful tactic, seems to fall apart.
I have used it to help another player learn how to play DE with skaven proxy and they won without much of a contest - even still learning what Dark Eldar Codex can do, I didn't stand a chance.
Since I used the list in a friendly 3 game round robin with 3 other players and with the exception of falling asleep in the middle of the last game, I didn't do well, but I did awesome in terms of what the orks can do. For now, I'm not going to horde the Orks anymore, I'd rather see more Bikes, Deff Dreads, SAG, and even weird boyz - because even when I lose those games, I have a much better time playing, than I have with the Green Tide.

Like I said, this isnt me hating on orks, Ive played them for 5 years and are hands down my favorite army and after running math hammer after math hammer scenarios in my head I can't think of a scenario where Orks beat Tau. I wasnt even mentioning having my Kroot shoot Nobz in the face before I assault the unit. I also have necrons and while it is a slightly better matchup for the orks it can still come to a grinding halt for the Tide if the reanimation protocols start doing hard work. A squad of wraiths can cause big problems for the boyz. Although Thraka and 9 mega nobz jumping out of a wagon and getting the assault still wrecks the face off of any unit in the game.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC?

Um, did you also forget to mention that the Puretide chip only affects the model using it? Tank/Monster Hunter and Stubborn are rules that only require 1 model to have it, Furious Charge and the other rules are by a model by model basis.

Even with it i fail to see how you would beat orks

I meant to say stubborn at that point. The Puretide chip gives so many rules that I forget which are which sometimes. I would declare stubborn so even if they win I should pass LD and wipe the unit in the following turn. And on the charge I have 5 attacks from farsight at I5 at S5 AP2. I should hit with 4 and wound with 3. I have 5 S4 attacks from Shadowsun at I4. I should hit with 3 and wound with 1.5 of them. I then have 26 S3 attacks at I4. I hit with 14 total. I'll wound with roughly 5. At I2 (Same as the Orks) I'll have 28 S5 attacks from the crisis suits. Ill hit with 16 attacks and wound with 13. That comes to a grand total of 3 dead from Farsight and 19.5 wounds from the unit. They will then pass 3 armor saves leaving 9.5 Orks left (counting the one dead from my 1 shot during the shooting phase). Assuming they got to attack with every model left (even though given the foot print on a 30 man boyz squad is HUGE so that probably wont happen) they will have 60 attacks and will hit with 40 and wound with about 13. Between rolling save on drones and crisis suits (mixed saves) lets say I do half on 3+ and half on 4+. I should fail 2 on 3+ and 3.5 on 4+. The Nob (assuming Im stupid enough to assault at an angle to where he can get his attacks in or unable to avoid it) kills 3 drones. That's only 8.5 total wounds while I dealt them 19.5 wounds, even if the nob kills 3 suits he dealt me 11.5 while I dealt 19.5. That should be enough to require a leadership test of which they will more than likely fail and I sweep them at I5. That's how you beat Orks in CC with Farsights squad. YAY MATH (I think)!

Cool.... soooo how many points was that unit that managed to beat a 180 pt boyz squad?

Many of you may play green tide. I played green tsunami.
Only played at 2000 points, 6 mobs of 30 boys, led by a Waagh boss and warp head. Ran behind 3 teams of killa kans. 191 models there is honestly no way to kill it all before it gets to you. This has been tested the Orkney brain boys in da lab had a good laugh and high fives all around until it escalated quickly.

Spaz431 wrote:
191 models there is honestly no way to kill it all before it gets to you.

Six thunderfire cannons disagree with you.

Necron tesla would like to respectfully ask for you to take that back.

Would you like me to continue?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Spaz431 wrote:
191 models there is honestly no way to kill it all before it gets to you.

Six thunderfire cannons disagree with you.

Necron tesla would like to respectfully ask for you to take that back.

Would you like me to continue?

Dont forget the single manticore.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Spaz431 wrote:
191 models there is honestly no way to kill it all before it gets to you.

Six thunderfire cannons disagree with you.

Necron tesla would like to respectfully ask for you to take that back.

Would you like me to continue?

Dont forget the single manticore.

Not to mention 9 Griffons.

So if you build an army specifically to beat a certain army it will win? Interesting...

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

Spaz431 wrote:
191 models there is honestly no way to kill it all before it gets to you.

Six thunderfire cannons disagree with you.

Necron tesla would like to respectfully ask for you to take that back.

Would you like me to continue?

Dont forget the single manticore.

Not to mention 9 Griffons.

45 Lootas could probably mow them down as well.

herpguy wrote:
So if you build an army specifically to beat a certain army it will win? Interesting...

Multiple thunderfire cannons, necron tesla, and trip manticore is not uncommon in TAC lists. I was joking about the griffons.

Ok, OP would your opinions change about Green Tide if KFF gave a 5++ Inv to shooting, but not CC, attacks?

 PipeAlley wrote:
Ok, OP would your opinions change about Green Tide if KFF gave a 5++ Inv to shooting, but not CC, attacks?

That's what I'm hoping for with the new codex. there's way to many things out there now that ignore cover.

rigeld2 wrote:

rothrich wrote:
The mek "upgrade" is useless in a squad of burnas...

Demonstrably false.
You can only wound what is in range of the weapons fired. That's ~8" for Template weapons. Even a Mek with a slugga (that's the pistol, right?) increases that by 4".

See, knowing rules is a good thing.

Yup... it's still viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Ran a green tide today. It was boring, cumbersome and tiring to play, and essentially an auto-win against armies that don't take the maximum number of templates permitted.

Never again.

But wait - I thought it was literally impossible for orks to win unless their opponent is a fool!
Surely I haven't been misled!

I know...

Jeeze...

This is making me wanna bring out the boyz and do some curb stomping to prove the naysayers wrong!

Remember: "Shoot da choppy, chop da shooty".

Spaz431 wrote:
Many of you may play green tide. I played green tsunami.
Only played at 2000 points, 6 mobs of 30 boys, led by a Waagh boss and warp head. Ran behind 3 teams of killa kans. 191 models there is honestly no way to kill it all before it gets to you. This has been tested the Orkney brain boys in da lab had a good laugh and high fives all around until it escalated quickly.

Actually that's a pretty standard Green Tide/Kan wall build. More effective in 5th that 6th, with the drop to KFF and the change in rules.

A true green tsunami at 2000 pts would be 300 -odd boyz, ditch the kanz, and run a couple of kff meks to give them all cover instead. The kanz are just targets for the antitank guns that would otherwise be killing one boy at a time.

@Spaz... Yes... I fielded 196 models....


Game 1: Puredar Loss
Game 2: Slaanesh Flying Circus - Win... (actually tie)
Game 3: Puredar Loss
Game 4: Taudar - Crushing loss
Game 5: Dark Angels - Loss

herpguy wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Did I also mention that if I declare Furious Charge with the Puretide EN I will beat the orks in CC?

Um, did you also forget to mention that the Puretide chip only affects the model using it? Tank/Monster Hunter and Stubborn are rules that only require 1 model to have it, Furious Charge and the other rules are by a model by model basis.

Even with it i fail to see how you would beat orks

I meant to say stubborn at that point. The Puretide chip gives so many rules that I forget which are which sometimes. I would declare stubborn so even if they win I should pass LD and wipe the unit in the following turn. And on the charge I have 5 attacks from farsight at I5 at S5 AP2. I should hit with 4 and wound with 3. I have 5 S4 attacks from Shadowsun at I4. I should hit with 3 and wound with 1.5 of them. I then have 26 S3 attacks at I4. I hit with 14 total. I'll wound with roughly 5. At I2 (Same as the Orks) I'll have 28 S5 attacks from the crisis suits. Ill hit with 16 attacks and wound with 13. That comes to a grand total of 3 dead from Farsight and 19.5 wounds from the unit. They will then pass 3 armor saves leaving 9.5 Orks left (counting the one dead from my 1 shot during the shooting phase). Assuming they got to attack with every model left (even though given the foot print on a 30 man boyz squad is HUGE so that probably wont happen) they will have 60 attacks and will hit with 40 and wound with about 13. Between rolling save on drones and crisis suits (mixed saves) lets say I do half on 3+ and half on 4+. I should fail 2 on 3+ and 3.5 on 4+. The Nob (assuming Im stupid enough to assault at an angle to where he can get his attacks in or unable to avoid it) kills 3 drones. That's only 8.5 total wounds while I dealt them 19.5 wounds, even if the nob kills 3 suits he dealt me 11.5 while I dealt 19.5. That should be enough to require a leadership test of which they will more than likely fail and I sweep them at I5. That's how you beat Orks in CC with Farsights squad. YAY MATH (I think)!

Cool.... soooo how many points was that unit that managed to beat a 180 pt boyz squad?

Mine is about 970pts. And it didnt kill a 180pts boyz squad. It killed two boyz squads of about 220pts a piece which is 440pts total and a huge hole out of your green tide line. Next turn if you attempt to assault me I'll overwatch and kill roughly 9 boyz off your front line (In other words, your closest models). This will have probably taken your assault away considering the angle you would have had to assault from after my jet pack move after eating 2 of your squads in the previous turn. Even if you do get in my gun drones will go first along with Farsight and Shadowsun and youll be lucky to swing back with enough boyz to kill more than 3 models. If you're not swept in combat at this point I will hit and run at Initiative 5 and jump 3d6 over the heads of the boyz that assaulted me and position myself to shoot the previous assaulted squad to death while i whittle down another squad of boyz in preperation of another assault that will end in another full wipe or sweeping advance. In 3 player turns I've killed 4 squads of boyz. This isn't estimation, I've actually done this before. If you say "Well your opponent was stupid for giving you those assaults" you may want to keep in mind that I autohit deepstrike so I pick when and where I kill. If you back up from me to prevent multi-squad death then instead of trouncing through your army Ill simply tiptoe through it. There is no escape, you will not out maneuver me. I'm faster and better than anything in a greentide list. Including Thraka or some other boss in a battle wagon that wont live ling enough to see the move and assault phase of its next turn.

So if it shows up turn 2 it might conceivably kill it;s own weight before the end of the game.

Not a dig. It sounds like a fairly effective unit. what was the rest of your army, because that one unit is like, half your points in a 2000 Pt game

Also, a 30 Boyz squad will have to get to 10 or less models by the end of the CC to have to make a sweep test, or they stay fearless and aren't going to go anywhere.


Also, i may be being dense (long day) but how are you killing two full 30 man ork squads in one turn with this unit alone? I don't have the new Tau codex, so i'm assuming there is something i'm missing.


Can this uber-deathstar assault the turn it comes in, also? If so i can see it jump in-shooty-assault-deathing a unit, but if not, how is it getting into CC before turn 3?

Ascalam, I am wondering the exact same thing as you. I am pretty positive it is physically impossible for this squad to kill a squad of boys per turn.

Without the codex, i can't really tell.

1000 pts of suits and drones could conceivably carry enough firepower to clear off a full squad of boyz a turn, and/or finish them off in assault.

Of course that leave the remaining 1800 pts worth of Orks to do something constructive to the 1000 pts of Tau remaining.

A lot would also depend on the terrain (for cover/blocking LOS issues) and deployment. Dawn of war deployment doesn't give the Tau much time to kill the horde before it closes.

KFF really does need to provide an invul save. Something like a shield, since thats basically what it is, where if the shots originated outside of the shield it provides a 5++ to affected units (still 6" range but affects entire unit like it currently does, not model by model) but if the shot originates from within the shield no invul, since its not crossing the barrier anymore.

And obviously CC wouldnt matter since youre bypassing the field by walking through it real quick.

 Ascalam wrote:
Without the codex, i can't really tell.

1000 pts of suits and drones could conceivably carry enough firepower to clear off a full squad of boyz a turn, and/or finish them off in assault.

Of course that leave the remaining 1800 pts worth of Orks to do something constructive to the 1000 pts of Tau remaining.

A lot would also depend on the terrain (for cover/blocking LOS issues) and deployment. Dawn of war deployment doesn't give the Tau much time to kill the horde before it closes.

I have been playing with a Farisght Enclave list for about two weeks that is pure battlesuits and Riptides and one of the toughest matchups has been in the form of a Green Tide army list, though I was able to win both times I played it. The best unit I have had against it has been this:

-(x2) Burst Crisis Suit Teams
*w/ x3 Crisis Suits, Bonding Knives, x2 Burst Cannons Each, x1 Drone Controller, x2 Gun Drones Each

This build puts out a whopping 36 S5 AP5 shots a turn and if combined with marker drones and/or an allied Commander with the Command and Control Node the results are devestating to any group of Ork Boyz.. The only way I have been able to win was to focus ALL my firepower into one Ork Boy Unit at a time, with primary focus on Lootas or even charge one of my Riptides into assualt to contain a squad of boyz for a few turns. Both of these tactics worked rather well, however I barely scrapped by with a win as I nearly did not have enough bodies to finish the job. Also terrain actually saved me in one of the games as it was in our ruined city board at my FLGS and all the difficult terrains slowed him down considerably.

Vineheart01 wrote:KFF really does need to provide an invul save. Something like a shield, since thats basically what it is, where if the shots originated outside of the shield it provides a 5++ to affected units (still 6" range but affects entire unit like it currently does, not model by model) but if the shot originates from within the shield no invul, since its not crossing the barrier anymore.

And obviously CC wouldnt matter since youre bypassing the field by walking through it real quick.

Really depends on how the shield works. Even in (semi-) official stuff there are multiple KFFs described, from the Episode 1 like bubble, over a looted shield generator from an eldar battlecruiser(carried by the arch-arsonist), to a tesla-coil simply zapping any bullets out of the air.

The tesla coil zapping bullets out of the air supports the invul save idea. If its a defensive retaliation devise, why is it considered a "cover save" which implies youre hiding behind something?

Gmalaron, I'm sure those teams could smoke some Orks. The issue is that that's not an all-comers list there. I'm sure if Chosen Praetorian used a standard farsight bomb load out he's not able to wipe 4 squads in 3 turns.

Also, the KFF becoming an invul is definitely something desperately needed. With tau and eldar now ignoring cover left and right, you really can't rely on it as a sound tactic anymore.

Im able to do this because my unit has target locks. Or I can just shoot my entire unit at one Boyz squad (dealing 32.5 wounds, aka whole unit death) and put one of shadowsuns fusion blasters into another squad allowing me to assault it and knock it down below fearless and sweep it in CC. And at 1850 I can have two squads of kroot with sniper rounds, and aegis line with a comms relay (so more than likely my unit WILL come in turn 2). It cannot assault the turn it comes in but I was referring to the turn after it comes in. That leaves enough pts for some riptides or broadsides, Depending on your playstyle. And I dont need to mention what large blasts and missilesides do to boyz squads, do I? In case you dont know a squad of missilesides kills roughly 13.5 boyz per turn. Large blast vary depending on how you deploy your units. I have this response alot when I tell people what this unit can do. I then play a game with them and they stand with mouths open as they try to figure out a way to deal with this unit of Demigods. I deepstrike in on a BA player with Tau allies at one point and killed a unit of broadsides, mephiston, and a unit of fire warrriors, all in the turn i landed.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The tesla coil zapping bullets out of the air supports the invul save idea. If its a defensive retaliation devise, why is it considered a "cover save" which implies youre hiding behind something?

I like describing it as the orks think its a force field, but it's really just pumping out lots of billowing black smoke. So it's harder to get a clear shot on them.

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im able to do this because my unit has target locks. Or I can just shoot my entire unit at one Boyz squad (dealing 32.5 wounds, aka whole unit death) and put one of shadowsuns fusion blasters into another squad allowing me to assault it and knock it down below fearless and sweep it in CC. And at 1850 I can have two squads of kroot with sniper rounds, and aegis line with a comms relay (so more than likely my unit WILL come in turn 2). It cannot assault the turn it comes in but I was referring to the turn after it comes in. That leaves enough pts for some riptides or broadsides, Depending on your playstyle. And I dont need to mention what large blasts and missilesides do to boyz squads, do I? In case you dont know a squad of missilesides kills roughly 13.5 boyz per turn. Large blast vary depending on how you deploy your units. I have this response alot when I tell people what this unit can do. I then play a game with them and they stand with mouths open as they try to figure out a way to deal with this unit of Demigods. I deepstrike in on a BA player with Tau allies at one point and killed a unit of broadsides, mephiston, and a unit of fire warrriors, all in the turn i landed.

I don't think anybody is trying to argue against the facts that Tau are broken, extremely boring to play with, and Orks completely stand no chance against them.

I'm just trying to figure out how you can say a farsight bomb can kill 4 squads in 3 turns by itself.

He is assuming that the boyz squads wont come more than 1 at a time, or that the rest of the army won't whittle it down with shooting first.


Also, that the farsight bomb could kill 20 boyz on the assault is dubious.

Indeed, while it is humorous the deification that Chosen is giving the Tau, his numbers are only good when taken as a single unit vs a single unit. There are also some minor rules mistakes made in his math hammering.

Tau are strong, mainly because they are fresh out of the box, but fighting them really has not changed too much. Supporting fire is the most deadly thing that you have to watch for now

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he is going purely off optimistic mathhammer, not actual practice.

Have you guys got any ideas for countering GT.
Im thinking mainly along the lines of squad killing VS combat effectiveness killing.

For example say you are facing 100 Orks in the GT @4x25.
You work out you can kill say 25 in one turn.
Is it better to wipe out a whole unit (leaving 3) or kill say 12/13 in two squads leaving them with 13/12 left respectively.
There are still 4 squads there, as opposed to 3 but does the combat effectiveness of the 2 weakened ones offset a full wipe?

Any ideas?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would killing say 6 from each squad be an option either?

Lol ok, Ive only fought orks 3 times since the new dex dropped, two of which was against green tide lists. Im going to Nova at the end of the month so I guess we'll just see how it goes there. My mathhammer may have been off due to rounding errors but you may also not be taking preferred enemy orks into account, like a few others were doing. And if you land at the end of a tide line ------X, X being where I land i can take the squads one at a time. But Im done giving examples with math and experience. Try to find someone competent that plays tau and request a game against Farsight bomb, if they have more than 2 brain cells to rub together you'll see what Im saying.

Ratius, I've only used Green Tide for 6th in 5 games so as far as this working everytime I can't say.
Every time I have lost it is because my opponent removed one unit at a time and kept their distance from the bulk of the force.
The 2 times I have won, it was because my opponent spreaded out their fire leaving 20+ in all the boyz units without eliminating a unit.
Basically most players play to the center, against a Green Tide, you can hinder their movement while causing massive destruction to their force. If the Orks deploy first, find their Big Mek KFF (probably closer to the center) and just hit that unit with everything you have. After just focus on their flank, charge into melee if you can.
If you do this quickly the Ork player will have already lost the game without even knowing it.

So Sleg: Vs say 25X4 Ork boyz =100.
You say remove that 25 man Mob and keep retreating backwards? Staying out of that 18" (shoota) kill range?

Would you recommend a refused flank VS GT (if possible?)

What if he dosent run a KFF Steg? Say 40 mna Grot shield?

removing a flank is easy and can be done on autopilot. Staying out of 18" range of most of the force is simple. For those of us who have run 100+ Orks know full well, that the front unit will keep those in behind and even most of their own unit out of range when shooting. so a few will make range and only a 3rd will hit, average half wound, and half will save. That's the average.

If you are playing a timed game, put as few units on reserve as possible, unless you can bring them in first turn. Your average game will only last 3 turns.

Grot walls will rout - think of them as just another unit. You will find that once you get over the shock of looking at the massive force and just remain focused on their toys and one unit at a time winning is very easy to accomplish every time with any semi-competitive army list - even another ork army.

Remember Green Tide is playing Roshambo and always calling Paper. You need to change your tactic from Rock to Scissor. So instead of trying to take on the entire force, surgical strike them and truly I can't see how the Orks could win.

 Ratius wrote:
So Sleg: Vs say 25X4 Ork boyz =100.
You say remove that 25 man Mob and keep retreating backwards? Staying out of that 18" (shoota) kill range?

Would you recommend a refused flank VS GT (if possible?)

What if he dosent run a KFF Steg? Say 40 mna Grot shield?

Agree with Sleg, shoot one unit until it's dead, half-dead units are still very dangerous, dead units aren't.

Refuse flank deployment is very powerful against hordes, simple because the other flank can't get over to you physically - there's too many other orks in the way. And if they do, they have to give up their spread-out formation. making your blasts and templates much more powerful. I'd argue that deploying everything on one flank is the way to beat hordes of any kind. 3plusplus.com had an article dedicated to this specifically, with many pretty pictures.

As for grots, I'm with Sleg here again. The take a lot more wounds than orks due to low toughness, so you can make them rout with low-range guns which can't reach the orks. If they are spread too thin, you can even attempt to either shoot them out of coherency (which causes them to block the orks following behind them next turn) or just declare focus fire and just kill the orks not hidden by a grot - there should be plenty.