Since i can't see one yet, i figured why not creat a page to chuck in comments about the new marine release. Personally i think they have put out some fantastic models, but really just pushed that price tag one step too far in some cases.
The tactical kit looks great, and an increase to £25 was expected, with a bunch of extra bits i think you will get your moneys worth. Thank got they didn't get the Dire Avenger treatment!
Vanguard and Sternguard are great, but i really don;t understand why the squad WITHOUT jump packs gets the higher price tag? my guess would be that with a tonne of extra weapons, you may be able to knock a few extra vets out when combined with the tactical kit. but £30 for 5 guys on standard bases? not cool GW!
The plastic Librarian is kinda cool, but at double the price of a metal one, i really cannot see the attraction (unless they drop the metal/ finecast ones so you have no choice)
As for the plastic captain... Total waste... unnimaginative resculp of the Black reach commander and £4 more than the much sweeter multi part dude, or £2 less than the set of 4 chapter masters. What is with these prices?
Anti Aircraft tank is pretty cool, and a substantailly bulkier vehicle than other Rhino chassis variants the price tag is expected and sound.
It also looks like the only way to get the Plastic claplain is the Reclusium command squad, which is also at a reasonable price, but only the chaplain is new.
Last but not least, the Codex. £5 more than other codecies, but sure a fair bit chunkier. No complaints, but god damn the special edition ones can jog a mile for double the price.
So overall... some lovely idea dampened by yet more crazy GW price tags. what do you think? am i jumping the gun? This is a place for friendly discussion on the new releases! enjoy!
Sidguard wrote: £70 for the collectors edition codex is highway robbery in my opinion[i]. Seriously. Ridiculous.
Fixed that for you, it's a bigger book than any of the others and not that much more than the collector's ones I've already bought, I'm fine with it I just want a pretty book.
I have no insight whatsoever into what GW does with he/she/it's money but hoping it goes to further developing the hobby that i love i have no problem with spending hella qash on it.
It seems they've let loose the hounds of war and put up the Space Marines for Advance Order now... Right after I got my Thousand Sons...
That aside, I've come to a personal agreement on the asinine pricing, that if it's too much, I won't do it. However, getting the codex and a tac squad will do me for now. The website is indeed lagging
But yeah, collector's edition is far too expensive for me to justify buying, I'll be sticking to the minimum to update my ultras.
Gotta admit, the Tactical squad box looks like it will make for a ton of awesome options.
If a pile of money fell in my lap, I would be really tempted to make some Lamentors. The detail and staggering array of bitz is pretty awesome, even if the price is a bit hard to swallow.
Centurions are crazy expensive lol i expected around $55-60 not 73
But i dont place space marines anyway, im an ork. Meaning i see all models as possible looted models
Ive contemplated grabbing a marine chapter but i already have 2 armies and unless the new ork codex just pisses me off i'll probably never even use my tau again once my orks can be competitive without green tide or nob biker missiles and loota spam.
Tactical Marines - Love the new kit, the $50 ($44.75 old) price increase is acceptable for the additional model bits it offers, most of the legs, torso, backpack are unique. Still only offers 1 missle launcher
Venguard - at $50 it is much more expensive than the Blood Angel DC kit at $39.50. Offers the same amount of stuff, but different accessories. I can find myself buying 1 set for kitbash purpose, but $50 is really pushing my limit.
Sternguard - At $60 for 5 guys this has gone past my bottom line. The Sternguard offers great shoulder pads that can be kit bashed to make the main character from Space Marine video game. Its the same price as the terminator squad and even comparable to my $70 Deathwing which can make 3 sets of models. Judging people would want 10 of these. I suggest you use count as from the tactical squad, unless you are an expert painter and wanting to go to town with these guys.
Space Marine inside a Space Marine - $94 for 3 models. My mind is blown. These should be only bought if you need them for a WAAC army. I won't even advice modelers/painters to spend money on these guys, there are better/cheaper models out there for that.
AA Tank - $80 Great looking Model Kit, I guess pricing is on par with other Tank offerings from GW. It does look good though.
Codex - $70 is alright for a GW codex, heard it gives new fluff and the rules are decent. You will need this to play 40K so go get it. It is pricy comparied to other games but this is GW.
Limited ed Cedex - $140; If you have money you don't need, why not?
Command Squad bundle - $110, in insult to GW fans. as most people will have the standard command squad and a razorback. GW is forcing collecters to shell out an extra $75 just to get the unique chaplian.
Chapter master/Librarian - $35 price increase overall, I don't see it offers any additional value compared to the old scuplts.
Overall I like the new kits, but really won't be buying any due to the insane costs. I play BA and DA, and I am using every mothod I can to reduce my army costs. The DV box sets does wonders, and the scuplts are high quality too. I fail to see why these so call new scuplts can price so high. I might just get the normal codex and use my existing BA/DA models as count as.
Space Marine inside a Space Marine - $94 for 3 models. My mind is blown. These should be only bought if you need them for a WAAC army. I won't even advice modelers/painters to spend money on these guys, there are better/cheaper models out there for that.
Honestly theyre just termies with more stuff slapped on. If i ever started space marines i would just buy the $50 USD 5man termie squad and kitbash the hell out of them. If you look closely, its literally the same model under all that extra junk and has unique toys.
Still stunned at the $30US price tag for the plastic librarian and captain. I shudder to think what the Finecast prices would have been...
The dev Centurions aren't that bad, but I'll still wait to see what the 3rd party companies come out with.
The Hunter is probably the only new kit I'll pick up. I might grab a box of the new tacticals, but don't really need it. I run a Red Scorpions legion army, so I already have enough regular dudes.
Really excited to get my hands on the Tactical Squad, and i will probabyly grab both Vet boxes at some point for the extra kit bash bits.
I was never very attracted to the centurions, so the price tag doesn't bother me.
The biggest shocker to me is trying to sell a static pose plastic model for literally double the cost of the nicer looking finecast equivalent? at first i thought the combi-grav would sell the Black Reach clone, but they are readilly available in a tactical box. I just don't understand why anyone would but these models.
Does anyone actually prefer the new librarian and captain over the older counterparts?
For all of the complaining about the Ltd. Ed. dexs GW should set the prices to the maximum amount they can sell them for. Would I like to see them cheaper and in unlimited quantities...yes, I want an Iron Hands one. Will I buy it at that price, no. Will it sell out, yes, almost assuredly.
I am very impressed by most of the releases. The only one I personally do not like is the centurion model. It is a wonderfully detailed model I just don't like the aesthetic.
The termi libby is actually a fantastic sculpt btw. For that level of detail I am very impressed they managed to get it into plastic.
This is a very good release. Instead of raging at your inability to afford the fanciest highest priced parts just enjoy the incredible TAC marine, sternguard with crazy variety of options, and those gorgeous tanks.
Just want to point out the current price point of existing models compaired to the new GW models. Comparsion are made base on type and complexity of models.
Old Lib @ 19.75CAD vs New Lib @$35CAD
Current Killa Kans @$55.50 vs SM inside a SM @$94
Current Tank @$69.25 vs New Tank @$80
BADC squad @$39.50 vs New Vanguard @$50
GKSS @$39.50 vs New Sternguard @$60
I hate to always complain about prices. But I want to show that GW didn't increase their prices becuase of high tech design effort or new multi option bits. They do it just becuase they can. If you find these prices are justified by all means buy them.
wufai wrote: Just want to point out the current price point of existing models compaired to the new GW models. Comparsion are made base on type and complexity of models.
Old Lib @ 19.75CAD vs New Lib @$35CAD
Current Killa Kans @$55.50 vs SM inside a SM @$94
Current Tank @$69.25 vs New Tank @$80
BADC squad @$39.50 vs New Vanguard @$50
GKSS @$39.50 vs New Sternguard @$60
I hate to always complain about prices. But I want to show that GW didn't increase their prices becuase of high tech design effort or new multi option bits. They do it just becuase they can. If you find these prices are justified by all means buy them.
I just looked at what the American price was compared to Australian prices. How the hell can they justify the nearly $50 difference for standard codex little alone the $80 difference of the limited edition codexs. It' not like they are in different languages or they have to convert it to the metric system
Mostly because of Australian import tax but even that doesn't fully justify the price discrepancies. It's the same for most hobby/entertainment products. Because Australia is so isolated, it's easier for distributors to create a monopoly and shut out competitors.
All great sculpts except the Centurians which are fugly. I think my favourite is the librarian, love the cherub.
The prices are ridiculous, and mange to make Forge World look reasonable. My personal favourites are the limited edition codices, £70 lololol. If you can convince yourself that a different cover and a few extra pages are worth paying DOUBLE then go ahead and waste your money.
My worry is that more and more people will get priced out of this hobby, in particular at the entry level, which has to be a bad thing. £140 for a starter army [before spending money on the codex, paints, brushes, glue etc.] compared to £30ish for a computer game, I know which I would choose [if I hadn't already been given the hobby bug when I was a kid myself]. Plus, it doesn't really give people the option of trying out the game to see if they like it.
Anyone else noticed that they are now charging more for the iPad codex than the standard hardback?!
I was already in a dilemma about whether to pay full price instead of FLGS discounted price to get the iBook features, now I'm really going to have to consider my options carefully.
On the plus side I notice that they've put all the plain ebook versions onto the iBook store now...
The prices are ridiculous, and mange to make Forge World look reasonable. My personal favourites are the limited edition codices, £70 lololol. If you can convince yourself that a different cover and a few extra pages are worth paying DOUBLE then go ahead and waste your money.
Agree with you completely, £30 for two amazing looking Praetors from FW ones in terminator armour as well or £36 for two good looking minis from GW. You don't even get any extra pages you get a dust cover with a picture that's already in the codex Oh and you get your pages edged in gold .
The prices are ridiculous, and mange to make Forge World look reasonable. My personal favourites are the limited edition codices, £70 lololol. If you can convince yourself that a different cover and a few extra pages are worth paying DOUBLE then go ahead and waste your money.
Agree with you completely, £30 for two amazing looking Praetors from FW ones in terminator armour as well or £36 for two good looking minis from GW. You don't even get any extra pages you get a dust cover with a picture that's already in the codex Oh and you get your pages edged in gold .
Don't forget the ribbon in your chapter colour!
People with more money than sense will happily buy these. they are made more tempting by the fact the standard dex cover is kinda ugly.
If the plastic heroes where £15 and both vet squads came in at £25 i would be more than happy. why is a plastic model with no options literally double the price of a finecast one? (as i've said, not fussed on centurians, but £40 would have been almost reasonable)
Pricing aside, the lack of customization for the new plastic Captain and Librarian disappointed me. Was hoping for a little more then just a WYSIWYG in the box.
gnoise wrote: Pricing aside, the lack of customization for the new plastic Captain and Librarian disappointed me. Was hoping for a little more then just a WYSIWYG in the box.
The price would be more just if they had a similar level of customisation to the old multi part captain mini, who is in my opinion, still the nicer mini and comes with plenty of options.
gnoise wrote: Pricing aside, the lack of customization for the new plastic Captain and Librarian disappointed me. Was hoping for a little more then just a WYSIWYG in the box.
The price would be more just if they had a similar level of customisation to the old multi part captain mini, who is in my opinion, still the nicer mini and comes with plenty of options.
Indeed, and if you are really desperate for a combi-grav you can always use the one in the Tactical or Sternguard boxes.
Personally I'm sticking with just the codex initially. Once I've seen how the codex changes my both my Black Templars and regular marines I'll look into any additions I might want to make. I do have to say though the Centurions are starting to grow on me if I can find a use for them in my army I will definitely consider them.
gnoise wrote: Pricing aside, the lack of customization for the new plastic Captain and Librarian disappointed me. Was hoping for a little more then just a WYSIWYG in the box.
The price would be more just if they had a similar level of customisation to the old multi part captain mini, who is in my opinion, still the nicer mini and comes with plenty of options.
Indeed, and if you are really desperate for a combi-grav you can always use the one in the Tactical or Sternguard boxes.
Personally I'm sticking with just the codex initially. Once I've seen how the codex changes my both my Black Templars and regular marines I'll look into any additions I might want to make. I do have to say though the Centurions are starting to grow on me if I can find a use for them in my army I will definitely consider them.
I think i'll be going the same way, but i'll be picking up a Tactic box soon as i have the money too. I may have been having a grumble about the Sternbguard price, but damn they are a nice kit!
Actually I think the Vanguards are quite reasonable for what you get, the Tac-box seems to be ok but I wouldn't buy it even if it stayed the old price and the Sternguard-box looks really awesome but is probably a bit too expensive for my taste.
At the moment I'm considering to get the codex and one of the veteran boxes but I'm not entirely sure as I own at least 5 models of both already. I think I'll decide it after a look through the codex.
The new miniatures are mostly quite good looking but the pricing will mean that i won't buy any of them. Tbh, i don't know how GW expects to attract new players when even a small starter army will cost around 100€ + rulebook.
I think both vet boxes will give enough bits to combine with tact or assault marines to create a bunch more than what's in the box. so i reckon you will be able to get your moneys worth eventually.
KingDeath wrote: The new miniatures are mostly quite good looking but the pricing will mean that i won't buy any of them. Tbh, i don't know how GW expects to attract new players when even a small starter army will cost around 100€ + rulebook.
IMO, most of the players will use the book just for update there armies, For attracting new players, GW have more way for that. The one click collection are more for hardcore hobbyists.
For the price, the book is 70$ in Canada and 140 for the limited edition (115$ in US). One is ok, the other is too much because I can made the comparison with the US price (don't want to know the Australian's price). The price for the strike force is good and may be i will buy it next year.
ansacs wrote:
The termi libby is actually a fantastic sculpt btw. For that level of detail I am very impressed they managed to get it into plastic.
.
Their plastic is actually very very good. The level of detail Finecast offers over it is so tiny of a difference i doubt anyone would care if they went plastic and ditched finecast. I have the Cadre for Tau and hes plastic and seriously his detail is spot on (too bad i'll almost never use him since i hate castle tau and he excels in it. Friend bought it for me thats why i even have it)
Jadenim wrote:Anyone else noticed that they are now charging more for the iPad codex than the standard hardback?!
I was already in a dilemma about whether to pay full price instead of FLGS discounted price to get the iBook features, now I'm really going to have to consider my options carefully.
On the plus side I notice that they've put all the plain ebook versions onto the iBook store now...
I already thought it was dumb the hardbook version costed the same as the ipad one. Usually hardbook jacks the price up by 10-15 dollars. I dont have an ipad so i'll never buy it anyway but even if i had one i wouldnt...i'd rather have the book.
Probably going to buy the rulebook even though i dont play SM. Tired of being left in the dark on details on new models i dont use lol
KingDeath wrote: The new miniatures are mostly quite good looking but the pricing will mean that i won't buy any of them. Tbh, i don't know how GW expects to attract new players when even a small starter army will cost around 100€ + rulebook.
IMO, most of the players will use the book just for update there armies, For attracting new players, GW have more way for that. The one click collection are more for hardcore hobbyists.
For the price, the book is 70$ in Canada and 140 for the limited edition (115$ in US). One is ok, the other is too much because I can made the comparison with the US price (don't want to know the Australian's price). The price for the strike force is good and may be i will buy it next year.
For those playing at home for Australia players the limited ed is $190 and the standard is $90 odd
ansacs wrote:
The termi libby is actually a fantastic sculpt btw. For that level of detail I am very impressed they managed to get it into plastic.
.
Their plastic is actually very very good. The level of detail Finecast offers over it is so tiny of a difference i doubt anyone would care if they went plastic and ditched finecast. I have the Cadre for Tau and hes plastic and seriously his detail is spot on (too bad i'll almost never use him since i hate castle tau and he excels in it. Friend bought it for me thats why i even have it)
Oh, yes, they can do a lot with plastic. I just wonder. if they switched to Finecast because the materials were cheaper than metal, and if plastic is supposed to be even cheaper than Finecast, then why are these new plastic characters more expensive than their Finecast counterparts which, in turn, were more expensive than the original metals?
Since I am just coming back to WH40k and playing Imperial Guard this time. I shall just get the standard SM codex. The rules are I shall need for the most part. Paying twice the amount as the regular codex seems too much for a limited edition. Especially so when I want to collect all of new 6th Ed. Codexes.
Are the Blood Angels and Space Wolves also included in the new codex or do I have to wait for those 6th Ed codexes as well?
SYKOJAK wrote: Since I am just coming back to WH40k and playing Imperial Guard this time. I shall just get the standard SM codex. The rules are I shall need for the most part. Paying twice the amount as the regular codex seems too much for a limited edition. Especially so when I want to collect all of new 6th Ed. Codexes.
Are the Blood Angels and Space Wolves also included in the new codex or do I have to wait for those 6th Ed codexes as well?
As Shadox said, BA and SW are not in the codex. The same holds for DA of course. Its not clear if BA and SW will ever get a 6th ed update. Maybe we'll have to wait for the 7th ed.
While I think the new Stalker tank is a bit pricey for a Rhino with extra bits it really does look pretty cool. While I only use Space Marines as Allies I might get one of those.
tyrannosaurus wrote:
My worry is that more and more people will get priced out of this hobby, in particular at the entry level, which has to be a bad thing. £140 for a starter army [before spending money on the codex, paints, brushes, glue etc.] compared to £30ish for a computer game, I know which I would choose [if I hadn't already been given the hobby bug when I was a kid myself]. Plus, it doesn't really give people the option of trying out the game to see if they like it.
You are forgetting the £400 for a console or the £700+ for a decent gaming PC. I would think that 40k stacks up quite well against almost any other hobby or sport.
wufai wrote: Just want to point out the current price point of existing models compaired to the new GW models. Comparsion are made base on type and complexity of models.
Old Lib @ 19.75CAD vs New Lib @$35CAD
Current Killa Kans @$55.50 vs SM inside a SM @$94
Current Tank @$69.25 vs New Tank @$80
BADC squad @$39.50 vs New Vanguard @$50
GKSS @$39.50 vs New Sternguard @$60
I hate to always complain about prices. But I want to show that GW didn't increase their prices becuase of high tech design effort or new multi option bits. They do it just becuase they can. If you find these prices are justified by all means buy them.
Yeah I mean, the new tank is essentiall a rhino chassis with some pegs on the bottom and a couple of cool turrets. Certainly not a needed price increase.
I hate to say it but I might have seen the end of my space marine days, I'm hoping the tyranid release keeps me wanting more gw stuff,
Yeah I mean, the new tank is essentiall a rhino chassis with some pegs on the bottom and a couple of cool turrets. Certainly not a needed price increase.
I hate to say it but I might have seen the end of my space marine days, I'm hoping the tyranid release keeps me wanting more gw stuff,
I can only imagine Nids being more expensive, since you get bigger kits which ammount to fewer points. At least a centurion squad is over 200 points in game, whearas these massive MC units (wraithknight/riptide) barely amount to that and cost more $$$
tyrannosaurus wrote:
My worry is that more and more people will get priced out of this hobby, in particular at the entry level, which has to be a bad thing. £140 for a starter army [before spending money on the codex, paints, brushes, glue etc.] compared to £30ish for a computer game, I know which I would choose [if I hadn't already been given the hobby bug when I was a kid myself]. Plus, it doesn't really give people the option of trying out the game to see if they like it.
You are forgetting the £400 for a console or the £700+ for a decent gaming PC. I would think that 40k stacks up quite well against almost any other hobby or sport.
A PC has many other uses besides gaming. GW on the other hand offers nothing but a bunch of,sometimes good looking, plastic. I for one am almost priced out of the hobby, simply because it gets ever more difficult to find a positive connection between what GW offers and what i have to pay for it.
Now than I've seen the pics of Centurion sprues, I have to say I'm impressed by the little hidden details. The structure of the legs is really interesting and the designer has obviously put a lot thought into it. Sadly, same cannot be said of the upper body, it would be much better it the secondary weapons were located somewhere else and we could see the marine's arms instead. Also, the giant orky mittens are goofy and unnecessary, as Centurions apparently are not equipped with power fists. The model looks horrible, but the same time I'm tempted to get the kit just to convert it into something decent. I'm sure it can be done, it's just a lot of work.
The new centurions look ... interesting to say the least, I wouldnt go out and buy them, but if I found them at a reduced price I would have to think pretty hard about it.
Personally I think the old Sternguard and Vanguard look better, and im hoping to get an old Sternguard box before the new ones come out.
To me it seems as if coversion guys/gals are gonna be the ones all over the new stuff, for the many bits and options the sprues are providing.
And personally grav guns just sound stupid to me, and they better have some damn good fluff backing up why they just "appeared" with this codex.
Not trying to gak all over the whole release mind you, im excited for chapter traits and I like the new AA stuff as well, just dont know how much of it im going to buy.
Anyone had trouble with getting hold of the limited edition stuff?
There was a big hoo-hah at the local GW this morning. Website was down and the manager spent two hours on the phone, trying to put some orders through for people.
Honestly, all that trouble for some bloody Space Marines. Tch
So, Crusader Squad with 5 Knights and 5 Scrubs, meltagun, combi-melta and a hidden power weapon in a Drop Pod should land at 195 points (200 for plasma, 205 for Fist instead of PW), and if you wanted to you could buy another PW/PF. 50 scoring bodies in Drop Pods for 975 points with upgrades isn't too shabby. Even 40 for 780 is pretty good, and it leaves you with 970 points of other nice stuff if you're playing 1750 points.
For myself, as I have a fair number of leftover marines I never did anything with, I'll probably get either the vanguard or sternguard kit to expand my elite units (at present I only have one vanguard squad and a dreadnought), but if I didn't have the extra bodies to use the included bits on, I'd never buy those kits.
Even so, I'll end up buying a codex and one kit, and that's it for my marines. At the price point they're charging, I just want one kit of bits, and if I want anything else for the army, I 'll just go forgeworld. I'll pay what is now a marginal increase in price for an aesthetic I greatly prefer. Even that is unlikely however, with the way marines seem to be going, my already marginal interest in the army isn't about to be reinforced.
Also, what I've heard of the rules changes have been decidedly dissapointing; rather than bringing marines closer to the fluff of being very small in number and powerful, GW wants them to be more numerous to sell more models. Current marines are a very poor army, and rather than making them better, they'll just make them cost less.
<Warning for what mite happen. I tend to get lost on my points ><
I posted a thread about this topic and views on it. To recite it pretty much goes as following:
Centurions are stupid. Don't look all that appealing since...it's a space marine in a space marine...biiiig woop... especially since it seems like it tries to do what a Devistator Squads do along with it's other variant trying to do what Assault Squads and/or Assault Termis do. Just over all seems like some attempt to keep with what the Tau and Eldar did with bringing out the big guns(in this case not even all that impressive to say the least.
Sternguard seem well...idk fancier? Idk...idc...
Vanguard guys....eh cool I guess
Stalker/Hunter = I am throwing money at the screen why is nothing happening?!?!!?!? I love the big guns and I like what they say for fluff which makes we wants.
Other new stuff = ...Idc
Lastely the codex...Normal one is okay for the new one. Limited Edition ones can royally go and have fun with it all. Waste of money if you ask me. With that much you can get 2 Tact Squads and maybe some bits. Or get other stuff as a whole.
Summary: I'm a SW player soooo ya....I just want our own update to hurry up and get here. But if there is the chance we get our hands on some of this stuff...I could care less for all of it except for the Stalker/Hunter. That is probably the only thing I care about in this new codex. I was told I should look into getting the SM as allies...With this new stuff...HAHAHAHAHA YEAH RIGHT! I'll stick fully and only to my wolves GW! Your prices are very meh! Not to mention...if I may throw my own grain of salt into this:
Lower the Prices and idk maybe do some more advertising after you drop the prices down by a fair amount to not be as stupid, Stop your policy on other stores or w/e that stupidness was and watch how much more money you'll make for doing all this because of the new players, returning players, and current players buying you out just because they want what you are now selling at a better and more reasonable price
tyrannosaurus wrote:
My worry is that more and more people will get priced out of this hobby, in particular at the entry level, which has to be a bad thing. £140 for a starter army [before spending money on the codex, paints, brushes, glue etc.] compared to £30ish for a computer game, I know which I would choose [if I hadn't already been given the hobby bug when I was a kid myself]. Plus, it doesn't really give people the option of trying out the game to see if they like it.
You are forgetting the £400 for a console or the £700+ for a decent gaming PC. I would think that 40k stacks up quite well against almost any other hobby or sport.
A PC has many other uses besides gaming. GW on the other hand offers nothing but a bunch of,sometimes good looking, plastic. I for one am almost priced out of the hobby, simply because it gets ever more difficult to find a positive connection between what GW offers and what i have to pay for it.
The most common uses for a PC also require a net connection for probably £100+ per year. I'm sorry if you think its too expensive for you, but as I said 40k as a hobby is actually remarkably good value for money when compared to rather a large variety of sports and hobbies.
100pounds per year internet? holy crap thats cheap!
My internet costs me ~60USD a MONTH, which is i think about 40-45pounds.
Anyway thats how i justify the costs for this hobby too...when you actually do the math for other hobbies theyre pretty close its just this one is a game while others are cars or artistic displays or furniture/framing stuff to name a few. Right now thats my issue is that its a GAME. I just returned to Nebraska after serving 6 years in the air force and im having issues finding a gaming group. Now my 2500+ worth of models (probably highly undercosting myself lol) are just collecting dust (or will anyway they take a month for military shipping to go anywhere)
On a random, slightly related topic i used to know a guy that was big into model cars and boats and planes. And he would get the high quality expensive stuff. I'd say hes spent more on that than i do on 40k by quite a bit, and that is literally just toy models whereas i can play with mine outside child's imagination rofl
...on the subject of Finecast vs plastic? The reason for Finecast instead of plastic is simple - they needed to be able to recast all of the older metal models using the same kinds of moulds, as the process is completely different. I expect, over time, Finecast may well be phased out.
...especially if we're going to be charged £18 for one bloody plastic model that doesn't even come with different weapon options and at most 2 heads?! Jesus. I'm more lenient than most when it comes to GW pricing but that's utterly ridiculous.
Byte wrote: Gotta say... Wheres the super oval base marine?
Hmm good point, no MC.
SHOCKING!
Actually it would have just been a Dreadknight variant if anything, and im quite pleased to keep that under 1 army thank you very much rofl. i hate that thing.
Though have to admit the whole "space marine inside a space marine" joke kinda makes it sound like were referring to an MC of some sort lol
Wilytank wrote: Any Marine who thinks their chapter needs a Monstrous Creature is commonly classified by two terms: coward and heretic.
Bleh... I would choose "coward" and "heretic" over "breakfast for Riptides". At least I have Hunters to deal with those pesky Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters/LoCs. Yippiyahayey !
Yeah I mean, the new tank is essentiall a rhino chassis with some pegs on the bottom and a couple of cool turrets. Certainly not a needed price increase.
I hate to say it but I might have seen the end of my space marine days, I'm hoping the tyranid release keeps me wanting more gw stuff,
I can only imagine Nids being more expensive, since you get bigger kits which ammount to fewer points. At least a centurion squad is over 200 points in game, whearas these massive MC units (wraithknight/riptide) barely amount to that and cost more $$$
I can deal with expensive MC's. but this release just doesn't feature anything new when you get right down to it.
Librarian at $35, already had one for cheaper
Chaplain as part of a set that few will need, already have cheaper options
Captain at $35, already had one for cheaper
Tactical squad - price increased with a couple of new options
Stalker - nice new tank, prices outrageous considering it's so similar to a rhino with a cool turret
Vanguard vets - plastic upgrade to an existing kit, nothing truly new
Sternguards, same as vanguards...both cool and nice upgrades, but not NEW
Centurions, the only truly new kit, no ore existing analogue or simple way to convert it...and they're absurdly expensive and stupid looking.
I want something new in a new release...this was a thinly veiled price increase that happened to come with some new rules.
I'm hoping bits sellers on Ebay will satisfy my need for Grav weapons without buying Stern or Van sets... My biggest disappointment is that the Vanguard are now elites instead of FA..
I lied, ill be getting a Sternguard kit, was just looking at the sprues and they are gorgeous! At the same time though, they are slightly less adorned then the previous vets, but still the options and bits are amazing.
Hibrass wrote: I'm hoping bits sellers on Ebay will satisfy my need for Grav weapons without buying Stern or Van sets... My biggest disappointment is that the Vanguard are now elites instead of FA..
Ed
They probably will, and probably overprice the hell out of them because of people like you (nothing offensive just saying). But, if you got the bodies why buy more bodies? Especially on simple models like most SM models its not that hard to just magnetize the gun arm anyway lol
Yeah I mean, the new tank is essentiall a rhino chassis with some pegs on the bottom and a couple of cool turrets. Certainly not a needed price increase.
I hate to say it but I might have seen the end of my space marine days, I'm hoping the tyranid release keeps me wanting more gw stuff,
I can only imagine Nids being more expensive, since you get bigger kits which ammount to fewer points. At least a centurion squad is over 200 points in game, whearas these massive MC units (wraithknight/riptide) barely amount to that and cost more $$$
I can deal with expensive MC's. but this release just doesn't feature anything new when you get right down to it.
Librarian at $35, already had one for cheaper
Chaplain as part of a set that few will need, already have cheaper options
Captain at $35, already had one for cheaper
Tactical squad - price increased with a couple of new options
Stalker - nice new tank, prices outrageous considering it's so similar to a rhino with a cool turret
Vanguard vets - plastic upgrade to an existing kit, nothing truly new
Sternguards, same as vanguards...both cool and nice upgrades, but not NEW
Centurions, the only truly new kit, no ore existing analogue or simple way to convert it...and they're absurdly expensive and stupid looking.
I want something new in a new release...this was a thinly veiled price increase that happened to come with some new rules.
After discount, the new Hunter/Stalker is just a few dollars more than a whirlwind, and it's a dual kit. How's that out of line?
After discount, the new Hunter/Stalker is just a few dollars more than a whirlwind, and it's a dual kit. How's that out of line?
A basic rhino is $37.25
Razorbacks are $41.25
The 3 HS rhino chassis tanks are $57.75
The stalker/hunter is $65.00
(prices are USD, from GW direct)
All of it's peers are the same price. It's a rhino + one sprue kit. Sure, it's a duel kit, but the pred kit can make a number of diferent configurations as well. It would have been nice if it was the same price point of similar kits. It's paying a "I'm new!" tax of $7.25 for no good reason. I guess we should count ourselves lucky that the other tanks didn't get bumped up to that price point...
Yesterday I was excited about the new releases. Today (after reading through my WD), I'm not.
I do really like the look of the new tactical squad box. The librarian looks great too - but that's where the fun stops for me. The codex is massively overpriced - £35 for the basic edition (not even gonna discuss the LE edition as I'd never get it). The other models are just...boring. The centurions look like they are meant to be the new "wow" unit. But imo they look really stupid. The captain is even worse - why the hell does he have a power sword and a two handed bolter! It just looks like he could use neither effectively. It's also an existing model from the AOBR set, so is totally pointless.
The new vehicles have basically been added to counter an aspect of the game I really dislike - fliers. I'm in the process of building up a few smaller sized armies at the moment, so I'd never play them anyway as the points cost is too high.
I guess I need to actually read the book to see if there are going to be any more model waves coming soon. As a BT player I was really looking forward to seeing them getting an update in this codex. From the Battle Report this month they seem generic and bland and there was no mention of how their Chapter Tactics would affect their play style.
Maybe I'm being too hasty. But it looks like they've released a confused book with little new to offer. If I'm wrong then I guess the blame lays at WDs door for poorly covering the release.
Rest assured that I do. I haven't been this excited about a release in years. The sternguard box has enough bits to make me happy for a long time. I like the re-cut of the tac squad. It's not a drastic change but that's a good thing. But the codex looks like its actually going to be very good. Not overpowered like a Matt Ward move, but still lots of neat new things to try out. Your BT get templar-y rules to keep them going. Not sure how that's boring unless you thought Templars were boring to begin with. On the plus side the BT get a lot of new toys.
I'm with you on that captain figure. Very lame. Mono-pose and just a rehash....for $30. Just no.
These centurions are damn ugly! So, would the rules make up NO! I can instakill these dreadnought costed models. And omg they are 50 pounds for 3! However the rest of the models I'm quite interested to lay against but I'm starting to think marines are looking too flash. Aren't they meant to look bulky and ugly? And has anyone else started noticing GW have stopped translating models into other languages of their boxes? All that they have is English and only one other language!
I like the tactical squad (thought it should come with more heavy weapon options), stern and vanguard boxes. I'd buy some if I hadn't promised myself to reduce my 'to paint' queue before buying anything else! The rest of the releases don't really interest me though.
The models seem ok, the rules are ok too. But when I checked how much a 1500pts army would cost me .... I don't think that many people here are going to be starting a new sm army , which is bogus with sm being the flagship army and all.
No idea but the cost is mind blowing . 3 tacticals 3 razorbacks 1biker chapy to be cpt , 1 DA biker unit , 1 stormraven ,6 centurions , 2 drop pods and 10 sternguard . The cost made me go 0_0 and I have a 10% additional discount at my shop .
But if you don't buy an army , then you have to either already have a collection of it or not play for months. At least this is how it works here. 1500 is the minimum game size , unless it is some sort of demo game in GW store . But there you can only play with the store armies , can't even use your own you just bought in their shop.
All of the armies are expensive, you just dont notice it unless you buy bulk.
I have no idea how much ive spent on orks but its way more than the starting prices for new SMlol. Yeah, their models are cheaper but only by 5-10 bucks usually and unlike other races not a single model in ork codex works fine on their own, so i need at least 2 lol
Same old comments about cost on here, do none of you have other hobbies? Golf, Classic Cars, horse riding, computer games, collecting antiques, vinyl collecting, etc
I have a classic car and TBH fuel to get to an event will get you most of the way to a reasonable 500pt army.
Hobbies cost money and this is a fun one, buy a set, paint it, buy the next one....or buy what you want and leave it all half done like me because you're lacking in time.
It's really not large sums of money to a working adult.
It's over well £100 for a 1000 pt force which is pretty much the smallest a good army with a little bit of everything has.
This statement is silly, 500pts is a fun battle and if you can't afford a little bit of everything then get what you can and build as you go. Who can paint it all in one big go anyway?
Don't go to GW, you can find him for £14.40 if not less elsewhere. Still expensive but every little helps.
I can get my for 20% less then what GW is asking for and it is still too much for an army and I play IG. IG was easy to buy 3x20man boxs , 3xhvy weapon boxs , 3xLR box and I had my army.
It is cheaper to buy the starter set then to buy a chappy and a libby for your army
Makumba wrote: The models seem ok, the rules are ok too. But when I checked how much a 1500pts army would cost me .... I don't think that many people here are going to be starting a new sm army , which is bogus with sm being the flagship army and all.
Space Marines have historically sold very well. I don't think these price hikes are going to hit their numbers too hard.
Makumba wrote: The models seem ok, the rules are ok too. But when I checked how much a 1500pts army would cost me .... I don't think that many people here are going to be starting a new sm army , which is bogus with sm being the flagship army and all.
Space Marines have historically sold very well. I don't think these price hikes are going to hit their numbers too hard.
well maybe in the US , but we had realy few new people start eldar , tau or sm , although those are still fresh. The cost seems to be too high for people who may want to start. All the stuff sold went to people who already have those armies.
wuestenfux wrote: As Shadox said, BA and SW are not in the codex. The same holds for DA of course. Its not clear if BA and SW will ever get a 6th ed update. Maybe we'll have to wait for the 7th ed.
I'd think its almost a definite that BA and SW will get a 6th edition codex. We've had 6 codex releases in a year, with two waves of 2 non-imperial and 1 imperial, and what is shaping up to be another such wave (Nids, Orks, and IG). At the current pace, every codex will be redone in the next year and a half to two years. Heck, they could even keep up the current wave trend and redo Necrons and Dark Eldar with another Imperial dex.
im seriously surprised GW isnt trying to be sneaky with their price increases - less models, cut the price to match so it LOOKS cheaper but its the same price.
I doubt people would be freaking out as much on some things like the Centurion prices if they were 26USD a pop instead of the 78USD for all 3. Same price, but doesnt "look" as bad.
Actually more people would casually buy if they only got 1-2 models instead of 8 lol since it would be around ~10USD instead of 40 . If it werent for bitz markets slightly upping the price, i'd just buy the bitz to make my models but they usually cost what an individual model would with the extra bitz you dont use, without getting the extra bitz (and im a kitbasher i need dem bitz )
Makumba wrote: No idea but the cost is mind blowing . 3 tacticals 3 razorbacks 1biker chapy to be cpt , 1 DA biker unit , 1 stormraven ,6 centurions , 2 drop pods and 10 sternguard . The cost made me go 0_0 and I have a 10% additional discount at my shop .
You're buying 5 vehicle boxes, a large flyer, 2 of the new expensive Centurion boxes, and 2 expensive Sternguard boxes, why did you think that would be cheap?
I'm guessing people want all that stuff for a ridiculously low price like 2 Rhinos for $10.
There are ways of dropping the cost if you are prepared to cut corners. I just brought 60 tactical from Black Reach for £42 and equipped them with heavy weapons, special weapons from FW (yes FW is cheaper than bit sellers now if you buy in bulk) at about £1 a special weapon and £2 a heavy weapon under cutting both the box price and the price from a bits seller. Granted the poses are very similar but you can't drive a Ferrari on Toyota money.
Other option is badly painted pre owned and strip the figures down. Over the weekend I stripped down nearly 70 assault marines that had multiple paint jobs (seriously, who the F paints over the top of an existing paint job with thick paint?!?) that cost me a fraction of the box price.
My Ork infantry, several hundred of them, is all from Black Reach, cost me hardly anything once I sold off the rule books. A tube of green stuff and some bits from my bits boxes later and I've most things sorted. Only the vehicles did I have to buy anywhere near full price.
As a xenos player, I'm happy that grav guns are on the expensive centurian models! Riptides, MANS and broardsides are safe from the clubs resident space marine player! I think the price of the centurians put him off...
If I read the battle report in White Dwarf correctly, the Hunter is a dedicated anti-air, it cannot fire at nonflyers at all. That is a bit too one trick for my tastes if true. Not sure about the Stalker, since they didn't use one. I don't like bunched look of the tank body though. The weapons are very nice however and the box set isn't unreasonable.
I think the devastator Centurions are nice, intensely dislike the drilling arms on the assault versions though. Not really sure I like the entire idea behind them though, something more like a Dreadknight, without the silly terminator hanging out the front would have made more sense. And at 26 USD per model .... I might get a box for a friend as a gift, but they better be a very good friend.
And SM still have to pay 15 points (if what I read elsewhere is correct) for a power weapon but GK still get NFW for free?
Mostly a tyranid player with a good sized Blood Angel army as well. Will wait until someone lets us know if these new units will be usable by BA before I go out and buy anything for myself.
migs6357 wrote: As a xenos player, I'm happy that grav guns are on the expensive centurian models! Riptides, MANS and broardsides are safe from the clubs resident space marine player! I think the price of the centurians put him off...
grav cannons are, grav guns and pistols can be equipped on several other squads. A command squad can deck out in only grav guns if they wish for example. and the tac. sergeant can get a grav pistol and so on.
migs6357 wrote: As a xenos player, I'm happy that grav guns are on the expensive centurian models! Riptides, MANS and broardsides are safe from the clubs resident space marine player! I think the price of the centurians put him off...
Well, the Tactical box contains a grav gun, a grav pistol, and a grav combi weapon.
Makumba wrote: No idea but the cost is mind blowing . 3 tacticals 3 razorbacks 1biker chapy to be cpt , 1 DA biker unit , 1 stormraven ,6 centurions , 2 drop pods and 10 sternguard . The cost made me go 0_0 and I have a 10% additional discount at my shop .
You're buying 5 vehicle boxes, a large flyer, 2 of the new expensive Centurion boxes, and 2 expensive Sternguard boxes, why did you think that would be cheap?
I'm guessing people want all that stuff for a ridiculously low price like 2 Rhinos for $10.
Well it would be awesome , if I could have a good list without those . What else am I suppose to do ? walking stenguard and marines suffer to much from helldrakes and FMC lists. Centurions would have given me anti tank/anti flyer/anti infantry option . The cheap options like the DA marines from the starter set are bad, with their shoty terminators without cycloon , chaplains , non bike HQs etc And it is not the the first time this happen to people around here . Eldar and tau were only restarted here . There is not a single new tau or eldar player . Only old ones who already had broadsides , serpents etc. In fact I don't think we had a new player join and stay. Most when they see the cost of multiple big kites they need to play just drop to other systems .
special weapons from FW (yes FW is cheaper than bit sellers now if you buy in bulk) at about £1 a special weapon and £2 a heavy weapon under cutting both the box price and the price from a bits seller. Granted the poses are very similar but you can't drive a Ferrari on Toyota money.
FW would be an option if it didnt ask for credit cards and didn't ask so much for transport and if someone from the customs opens it and it costs over 100 Euro you have to pay a tax.
Wow those centurion models are fugly and then some, especially the assault based ones with the assault drills. Those gravity guns are fun if you play MEQ. Nothing like paying a premium for some terminators and watching them die in a single round to 2+ to wound them. I guess the key is to swarm the devastator centurians with cultists to limit their effectiveness.
Nice for marines that they now have *2* tanks that can handle AA duty. One has missiles that can try to home in if they miss and the other can target two different flyers at once. Good for the marines that they get a *second* vehicle that can shoot at different targets now. About the only saving grace is that it seems that AA is *all* they can do.
I just laughed loudly when I saw the prices for a lot of the new kits. Even funnier seeing some of the comments here acting as if the prices aren't that bad. Uh...yeah...I'm with the folks who find the prices of those new plastic character figs, the sternguard and the collector's codecies to just be insane. I was considering buying the baseline codex for options with my DA and SW armies, but seriously debating now. Oh well. Have already cut out most GW spending at this stage, so it isn't going to kill me to not buy any of these overpriced kits either.
Skriker
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nwns wrote: Same old comments about cost on here, do none of you have other hobbies? Golf, Classic Cars, horse riding, computer games, collecting antiques, vinyl collecting, etc
I have a classic car and TBH fuel to get to an event will get you most of the way to a reasonable 500pt army.
Hobbies cost money and this is a fun one, buy a set, paint it, buy the next one....or buy what you want and leave it all half done like me because you're lacking in time.
It's really not large sums of money to a working adult.
Sorry but comparing playing 40k to collecting classic cars, horse riding, golf, collecting antiques and other high end hobbies is a bit preposterous. 40k is a *game* and shouldn't even be remotely close to those things in cost, but it is. Why is that? Because people compare it to other more expensive hobbies to validate the crazy prices. I should not be able to purchase 2 new handguns for my collection for less than it costs to buy a new 1500 space marine army. It is crazy and as long as people keep convincing themselves that all hobbies are not cheap it will get worse and worse. There are plenty of cheap hobbies out there. There are also plenty of stupidly expensive hobbies out there. 40k is way overpriced for what it is: Plastic toy soliders for gaming on the table top. You can call them "collector's" minis, and label them however you like they are still painfully overpriced for what they are.
So does anyone know if the costs of bikes? Are they more in line with CSM or DA, or what? Rumors said they were four points cheaper than current, but I assume that's per bike. What about the base cost?
DogofWar1 wrote: So does anyone know if the costs of bikes? Are they more in line with CSM or DA, or what? Rumors said they were four points cheaper than current, but I assume that's per bike. What about the base cost?
Given the book isn't out yet the answer to that is about a week away...
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
DogofWar1 wrote: So does anyone know if the costs of bikes? Are they more in line with CSM or DA, or what? Rumors said they were four points cheaper than current, but I assume that's per bike. What about the base cost?
Have people started receiving codexes yet? It's going to be hard to tell if the rumours are correct till people have them in hand, I've been told mine should arrive Friday at the latest.
I was wondering if someone had maybe seen something from 40k radio with hard numbers, or at least hard analogies from which numbers could be inferred.
davou wrote: bikes are down to 84* percent of their original cost.
Is that for individual bike costs, or for base cost for the unit, or both? If for individual bike costs that's in line with what 40k radio was saying, but they didn't mention anything for base unit cost, and that would place the cost approximately 5 points above their CSM cousins for the base three bikes.
DogofWar1 wrote: I was wondering if someone had maybe seen something from 40k radio with hard numbers, or at least hard analogies from which numbers could be inferred.
davou wrote: bikes are down to 84* percent of their original cost.
Is that for individual bike costs, or for base cost for the unit, or both? If for individual bike costs that's in line with what 40k radio was saying, but they didn't mention anything for base unit cost, and that would place the cost approximately 5 points above their CSM cousins for the base three bikes.
I'm guessing base cost as vet sergeant is an upgrade again now rather than default.
AHReese wrote: I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
This, we finally have bundle deals that are deals! This is such a good thing, yet we whine. The % aren't quite that high in every currency, but still... discounts! from GW!!! only thing that would surprise me more would be a Christmas sale at this point.
Lobukia wrote: This, we finally have bundle deals that are deals! This is such a good thing, yet we whine. The % aren't quite that high in every currency, but still... discounts! from GW!!! only thing that would surprise me more would be a Christmas sale at this point.
I'm a little puzzled as to what makes it so surprising. It's not that many years ago that GW used to offer army boxes for each new 40K and WHFB release. They generally weren't massive savings, but they were there.
And Battleforces have been around for decades now, and with the exception of the Guard one in 4th edition have always offered a reasonable (and in some cases rather significant) discount.
The non-discounted one-click bundles that GW have been offering of late are certainly ridiculous, but they're not, and never have been, the only way GW offers bundle deals.
I said a month ago that I could see a 5-man sternguard going for $50 if it included all the options in multiple quantities. Glad to see I was spot on. Actually, I believe they were one combi- less for each gun than I was anticipating. That kit is definitely meant to be bought alongside a tactical box for all the stuff it comes with: combine them, and you'll have a fantastic set of 15 models. Also rejoice that you won't have to buy anymore FC upgrade packs for all those combis. The amount of stuff you get, by GW standards, makes it worth the $50. Vanguard prices are okay too. Centurions and the tank prices are high though...$60 for centurions (still ugly as sin) and same price for this tank as a whirlwind would have been the right call.
R3YNO wrote: Just out of curiosity, how old was the old tactical squad kit?
The models were originally made for 3rd edition, resprued with a new accessory sprue at the start of 4th, and then the accessory sprue upgraded with the start of 5th.
AHReese wrote: I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
Add the rulebooks and we are at almost 300€ (or a bit less if you get further discounts) for a new player. How GW wishes to attract new players with that pricing policy is beyond me.
Actively promoting small scale entry level games (40k in 40 minutes was great for example) and offering affordable (that is, 50$) starter sets like Privateer Press does would be an option
but apparently this is currently not desired by GW.
AHReese wrote: I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
But the strike force has a whirlwind, land raider and a vindicator. Those are all bad options . That is 1 bad , 1 ok if your tailoring and 1 ok if you happen to run WS/BT and assault units. Getting stuff you don't need cheaper , doesn't make a unit choice good.
AHReese wrote: I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
But the strike force has a whirlwind, land raider and a vindicator. Those are all bad options . That is 1 bad , 1 ok if your tailoring and 1 ok if you happen to run WS/BT and assault units. Getting stuff you don't need cheaper , doesn't make a unit choice good.
i might get that strikeforce. Just because its a deal. I really dont care about the Dread in there but thats about it (far as i know anyway) thats kinda pointless.
I'm trying to decide WHAT is bad about the Centurion models that is turning all of us off. I agree there are some things that just don't seem right about them, even though this is 40k and the Imperium has any right to make their armor look like anything they want.
I'll list off some possibilities, and let me know if any of these ring true to you all:
1) Perhaps the fact that they aren't unique to a particular chapter alone makes them feel like they are far too common, when these sorts of things should seem so specialized that they're hardly seen in the 40k universe, realistically
2) The shoulders actually appear too smooth for the harder edged look of the rest of them, clashing in a bad way
3) Their utility is not immediately clear
About these - #1 is a lore thing, for those of us familiar, only. It's something that can get under our skin perhaps, but perhaps we should realize that no matter what way you cut it, these things WILL be super rare. So there is that.
#2 makes sense lore-wise, given the Astartes' penchant for taking super special care of their equipment, so giving it a nice sheen and smoothness makes some sense. However, this is a practice we're not used to seeing them ever bother with - too much attention to the aesthetic. But then again, see #1 - they're super rare. As for the actual aesthetic of what we're seeing with the curved shoulders, it does clash with the rest - but as others have pointed out they CAN be modified rather easily, to be made to mesh with the rest of the design. I'd love to see such conversions. It's not the worst offense GW could have made, really.
#3 - Their utility between the terminators and the dreadnaughts does exist for sure on the tabletop, i'd have to say - but not at a glance. It's a choice between these and devastators for the ranged options, since they serve the same exact purpose, only tweaked differently in terms of what you specifically get for the points for such a long ranged role. Not an unwelcome idea, but we're just not used to it.
All that being said, I don't see what people are talking about with the helmets - plus the kit comes with some great heads. Also, when it comes to bashing fortifications that are hard to get to, these guys are literally made for them; I don't see the problem with them in that capacity.
So it's just the idea behind them and the aesthetic that's a bit hard for us to get behind them, I'd have to say. That being said, most everyone seems to like them better the more and more they see them, which means that *really*, it's not that we hate them, just alien to what we've ever liked before. So it just takes some thinking about it, but yeah - I think they actually get a thumbs up from me, and that will stand the test of time.
Seems like we have a different one for sale here . Still no marine army uses assault space marines or dreadnoughts . Honor guards are also much worse then sternguard.
I actually think the aesthetic of the Centurion's is fine, especially when you see the art for them. The problem I have is the pose that the models are in - they just look as if they're standing there kinda bored. I know it'd be difficult with such a bulky model, but I think more dynamic posing would have helped these a lot.
people hate the centurions because theyre basically baby dreadnoughts. Looking at their legs you wonder how the crap they move (which makes me think theyre SNP) because theyre so bulky and thick.
Personally i dont love them but i dont hate them, theyre fine.
AHReese wrote: I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
But the strike force has a whirlwind, land raider and a vindicator. Those are all bad options . That is 1 bad , 1 ok if your tailoring and 1 ok if you happen to run WS/BT and assault units. Getting stuff you don't need cheaper , doesn't make a unit choice good.
Aside from the fact that it doesn't have those, since when did 65pts Whirlwinds become bad? Last I checked most people think they are great.
I really like the way the strike force looks. It's a great box for someone starting out. Or even for people bulking out their collection. I'm buying one. It has a number of advantages over the old battle force.
5 man scout squad. Snipers this time, not the oft-maligned bolter/shotgun scouts.
2 full 10 man tac squads. Not the 1.5 tac squads from before. If you are playing marines, you need these guys.
Razorback. not a rhino, you get the options.
Assault marines. These guys might not be hyper-competitive, but they do work fine as a harassment unit. Same as the old battle force.
So that's the comparable stuff to the old force, and it's either better, or at worse the same. Then they added:
Drop pod.
Ven dread
Captain
Command squad
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
Dreads aren't the best these days, but hardly useless. They can also be equipped for multiple roles, making it a flexible kit for a starting army. The venerable dread is also the best looking of the dreads, so even if you field him as a normal dread, he looks cool.
Captain and Command squad. The captain was the low man on the SMHQ list in our last codex, I'm not sure how they will fare in the next. One of the big problems with the command squad was the price, and the fact that you needed to take the captain. IIRC they are now open to all HQs, so I think they will become more useful. Either way, both these sprues are chock full of bits. You could easily make 6 sternguard instead if you wanted, or just jazz up the rest of your force.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
Nevelon wrote: (snipped)
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
(snipped)
You get a drop pod and a CC dreadnought. Sorted
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
Another important point in my view is that the force is also a pretty reasonable match to the kinds of strike forces that the fluff has Marines using all the time, rather than the ultra-efficient liosts that tend to appear for tournaments.
Nevelon wrote: (snipped)
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
(snipped)
You get a drop pod and a CC dreadnought. Sorted
One problem looking at the strikeforce in a vacuum is the options for the dread. While drop podding dreads is a good tactic, you normally see it done with MM dreads or Ironclads. IIRC the options in the ven. kit are PC, AsC, and TTLC. No MM. While a drop podded assault cannon can do very unkind things to the rear armor of most tanks, against hard targets you are going to want the MM.
Unfortunately, the only place to get MM dreads is the OOPAoBR, or FW/3rd party bits. Or kit-bashing.
In my opinion, vanguard and sternguard sets are just upgrade packs that come with models(more legs) and heaps of bits, which could be used to say.. Build 2 10men sternguard or vanguard when combined with tac or assault squads respectively.
Considering the sternguard kit comes with 8 combis,HF, 2 SB, grav pistol, melta, grav rifle,plasma gun and 6 vet bolters which rounds up to 21 weapons(not including some of the other shorty weapons in the kit) you prob be using, hence 20 sternguard just from that kit.
Your sternies may not sound as flashy anymore since they will have to be donating their fluffy shoulder pads and other armor parts but come on... I thinks it's safe to say we all have those flashy leftover bits that you always wanted to use.
Although I cannot say the same for new SM players. Well they could buy the tac squad with stern and make 15 sterns. The tac squad sgt is alr kinda flashy and their kit also comes with cool bits and a combi. If they want more units, just buy that 5man tac squad set. It cost less than half the price of a tac squad for half a tac squad although without the cool bitz
Netsurfer733 wrote: So it's just the idea behind them and the aesthetic that's a bit hard for us to get behind them, I'd have to say. That being said, most everyone seems to like them better the more and more they see them, which means that *really*, it's not that we hate them, just alien to what we've ever liked before. So it just takes some thinking about it, but yeah - I think they actually get a thumbs up from me, and that will stand the test of time.
Your position may work for you, but not everyone. I really couldn't care less where the units fit into the space marine toolkit and I far prefer there not be a bunch of chapter specific minis with special rules. New formations I like. Things like deathcompany or ravenwing which use standard parts of the space marine forces in different ways I like. Baal predators, sanguinary guard and vengeance land speeder are the kinds of things I hate. Heck even their usage in the recent WD battle report showed them to be rock solid and scary against MEQs.
For me it is the simple fact that I hate the miniatures. They are one of the ugliest things GW has ever released, especially with those CC breaching drill arms. UGLY. It is that simple for me.
I've said this elsewhere, and I know as a brand-new player my wisdom will be taken with a grain of salt... but GW's pricing, while very high within the context of the rest of our hobby, still isn't insane by macro-"hobby" standards.
If I spend $45 on a Tactical Marine box, I might spend 10-15hrs painting them up nicely, another hour or two figuring out how I wanted them loaded out... etc...
Before even hitting a table for a single game I will have gotten as much "hobby" value out of them as I have many of the video-game I bought, and was immediately bored with.
Likewise, I have caught myself avoiding playing 40K for years, despite wanting to, because of the price, and yet in doing so, all i've really accomplished is that i've spent thousands on other games/systems, where maybe one out of three is actively played at game-shops. If I had back every $200-300 pledge I made on some pretty box 'o plastic Kickstarter I backed, but then never EVER played, painted, etc... I'd easily have two or three large WH40k armies by now.
Are their prices high versus say Mantic (who, incidentally, I work for)...? Of course they are... but even I know that I can find games of 40k anywhere, any time, in essentially any country... and sometimes that is worth a bit of a premium.
Or, God forbid, you just love the game and want to play it for fun-sake.... and buy "counts as" armies from other producers. :-)
AHReese wrote: I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.
But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.
This, we finally have bundle deals that are deals! This is such a good thing, yet we whine. The % aren't quite that high in every currency, but still... discounts! from GW!!! only thing that would surprise me more would be a Christmas sale at this point.
I've gotta say... the Strike-Force literally pushed me over the edge from casual observer to, "I'm going to play WH40k". I hadn't even heard about online discounters and it still felt like a solid deal. Considering that I could have had that set for about $200-shipped, and it makes up the backbone of a proper SM army, I can't see what the problem is.
If they keep this new "Strike-Force" bundle thing going, then GW can count on me to finally flesh out my wife's "purely for hobby" Assault on Black Reach Orks, into a full army as well.
Seriously... good on them for making tempting bundles that bring their prices much more in line with the best other games out there right now.
Nevelon wrote: (snipped)
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
(snipped)
You get a drop pod and a CC dreadnought. Sorted
One problem looking at the strikeforce in a vacuum is the options for the dread. While drop podding dreads is a good tactic, you normally see it done with MM dreads or Ironclads. IIRC the options in the ven. kit are PC, AsC, and TTLC. No MM. While a drop podded assault cannon can do very unkind things to the rear armor of most tanks, against hard targets you are going to want the MM.
Unfortunately, the only place to get MM dreads is the OOPAoBR, or FW/3rd party bits. Or kit-bashing.
I know very little about the different dreads, but isnt the difference between them literally the weapons and the Ironclad is slightly beefier? Wouldnt be that hard to kitbash the venerable in the kicker kit to be an Ironclad for said droppod.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've said this elsewhere, and I know as a brand-new player my wisdom will be taken with a grain of salt... but GW's pricing, while very high within the context of the rest of our hobby, still isn't insane by macro-"hobby" standards.
If I spend $45 on a Tactical Marine box, I might spend 10-15hrs painting them up nicely, another hour or two figuring out how I wanted them loaded out... etc...
Before even hitting a table for a single game I will have gotten as much "hobby" value out of them as I have many of the video-game I bought, and was immediately bored with.
Your anaolgy doesn't hold when you acknowledge the fact that you can get just as much hobby value out of cheaper products just as readily. The price of the tactical squad box doesn't determine how much enjoyment you get from building the kit and painting the minis. The contents determine that. The price just determines how many you can buy. A perfect example is that I can get a much higher quality plastic armor kit from a company like Acadmey or Dragon with 10x the detail of any plastic GW armor kit available, photoetched parts AND a turned aluminum gun barrel for around $45. Look at the price of the new marine AA tanks. It is crazy. I will have far more enjoyment and modeling time building my new Dragon 1/35 scale mobelwagon *and* converting it for use with my marines as an AA platform than I will get from building a silly GW armor kit AND it will look even better on the table as well because it is so detailed from the get go.
Mind you, you don't have to rationalize your position to me in the end. If you are fine paying the prices as they are now then feel free to do so. I think that is the issue here overall as somehow if you don't want to pay the prices anymore you are some kind of whiner, and if you do keep paying them you are some kind of idiot. When it all depends on what your threshold is. I reached mine, even with what I make and I honestly never thought that would happen. I currently have 11 armies and some parts of a 12th (which will be hitting ebay before too long), and one of those is chaos renegades army full of forge world conversion pieces so it isn't as if I haven't spent a lot on GW in the past. Just won't be much in the future aside from the Ork, DE and SW codecies...
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've said this elsewhere, and I know as a brand-new player my wisdom will be taken with a grain of salt... but GW's pricing, while very high within the context of the rest of our hobby, still isn't insane by macro-"hobby" standards.
If I spend $45 on a Tactical Marine box, I might spend 10-15hrs painting them up nicely, another hour or two figuring out how I wanted them loaded out... etc...
Before even hitting a table for a single game I will have gotten as much "hobby" value out of them as I have many of the video-game I bought, and was immediately bored with.
Your anaolgy doesn't hold when you acknowledge the fact that you can get just as much hobby value out of cheaper products just as readily. The price of the tactical squad box doesn't determine how much enjoyment you get from building the kit and painting the minis. The contents determine that. The price just determines how many you can buy. A perfect example is that I can get a much higher quality plastic armor kit from a company like Acadmey or Dragon with 10x the detail of any plastic GW armor kit available, photoetched parts AND a turned aluminum gun barrel for around $45. Look at the price of the new marine AA tanks. It is crazy. I will have far more enjoyment and modeling time building my new Dragon 1/35 scale mobelwagon *and* converting it for use with my marines as an AA platform than I will get from building a silly GW armor kit AND it will look even better on the table as well because it is so detailed from the get go.
Mind you, you don't have to rationalize your position to me in the end. If you are fine paying the prices as they are now then feel free to do so. I think that is the issue here overall as somehow if you don't want to pay the prices anymore you are some kind of whiner, and if you do keep paying them you are some kind of idiot. When it all depends on what your threshold is. I reached mine, even with what I make and I honestly never thought that would happen. I currently have 11 armies and some parts of a 12th (which will be hitting ebay before too long), and one of those is chaos renegades army full of forge world conversion pieces so it isn't as if I haven't spent a lot on GW in the past. Just won't be much in the future aside from the Ork, DE and SW codecies...
Skriker
Which is fair, but I am trying to take a wider view. You're right, if the sum-total of hypothetical "value" were the painting of the minis, then I absolutely could sit down with a Reaper Miniature KS pledge, and be set for the next year...
That said, there are countless games which I will never get a chance to play, because while I was lured in by "value" and a volume-to-dollar proposition I couldn't resist, I didn't have the presence of mind to realize that "game value" is zero, if I paint those guys and then want to play with them, only to find that no one in 100-miles plays said game. :-p
I don't ever want to be "that guy", but part of WH40k's allure to me as I sit on hundreds and hundreds of unusable minis (many times from AMAZING, but entirely under-appreciate games, mind you), is that I feel like it comes with insurance. When I get my hobby value out of these, then they will have guaranteed game value as well.
I know very little about the different dreads, but isnt the difference between them literally the weapons and the Ironclad is slightly beefier? Wouldnt be that hard to kitbash the venerable in the kicker kit to be an Ironclad for said droppod.
The difference is mostly in the arms. One of the things that makes the ironclad stand out is that it has a DCCW on both the right and the left. While kitbashing a multi-melta would be a reasonably easy job (assuming you had a spare MM bit) fabricating a close combat arm would be an advanced building project.
I don't think any of the kits in the strike force come with a MM. Land speeders, attack bikes, LRC/R, and devastators I think are your options from a purely marine POV. And most of those are going to want to use the melta themselves...
Oh, and as an aside... you don't have to justify your opinions to me either. :-) People take hobby stuff too seriously sometimes, and feel the need to look down on people who don't come to the same conclusions that they do.
I have a friend who loves 40k more than anything, in any hobby, and his entirely collection is "counts as" from generic 3rd party, cheapie minis lines. And you know what? I'd never suggest he's anything but the biggest 40k fan I know.
Money spent or saved doesn't determine fandom, and there is plenty of room for all folks in table-top gaming. Cheers!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Oh, and as an aside... you don't have to justify your opinions to me either. :-) People take hobby stuff too seriously sometimes, and feel the need to look down on people who don't come to the same conclusions that they do.
I have a friend who loves 40k more than anything, in any hobby, and his entirely collection is "counts as" from generic 3rd party, cheapie minis lines. And you know what? I'd never suggest he's anything but the biggest 40k fan I know.
Money spent or saved doesn't determine fandom, and there is plenty of room for all folks in table-top gaming. Cheers!
Legality of the models really only takes place in a GW store or at a tournament. If you got a large enough group where you can play more than say once a month and you hate tournaments, why spend the money if its going to hurt your budget? personally i dont care what people field, unless its one of 3-4 armies i usually dont know what they are without asking anyway lol.
I know very little about the different dreads, but isnt the difference between them literally the weapons and the Ironclad is slightly beefier? Wouldnt be that hard to kitbash the venerable in the kicker kit to be an Ironclad for said droppod.
The difference is mostly in the arms. One of the things that makes the ironclad stand out is that it has a DCCW on both the right and the left. While kitbashing a multi-melta would be a reasonably easy job (assuming you had a spare MM bit) fabricating a close combat arm would be an advanced building project.
I don't think any of the kits in the strike force come with a MM. Land speeders, attack bikes, LRC/R, and devastators I think are your options from a purely marine POV. And most of those are going to want to use the melta themselves...
Ah, ok yea that wouldnt be TOO hard to kitbash into an ironclad. The average joe wouldnt be able to do that though, i agree. Being SM, you kinda have to have the power fist and/or the vice-grip looking thing....too bad they arent orks you can just slap a giant stick on there and call it good rofl
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've said this elsewhere, and I know as a brand-new player my wisdom will be taken with a grain of salt... but GW's pricing, while very high within the context of the rest of our hobby, still isn't insane by macro-"hobby" standards.
If I spend $45 on a Tactical Marine box, I might spend 10-15hrs painting them up nicely, another hour or two figuring out how I wanted them loaded out... etc...
Before even hitting a table for a single game I will have gotten as much "hobby" value out of them as I have many of the video-game I bought, and was immediately bored with.
Likewise, I have caught myself avoiding playing 40K for years, despite wanting to, because of the price, and yet in doing so, all i've really accomplished is that i've spent thousands on other games/systems, where maybe one out of three is actively played at game-shops. If I had back every $200-300 pledge I made on some pretty box 'o plastic Kickstarter I backed, but then never EVER played, painted, etc... I'd easily have two or three large WH40k armies by now.
Are their prices high versus say Mantic (who, incidentally, I work for)...? Of course they are... but even I know that I can find games of 40k anywhere, any time, in essentially any country... and sometimes that is worth a bit of a premium.
Or, God forbid, you just love the game and want to play it for fun-sake.... and buy "counts as" armies from other producers. :-)
I'd have to agree here, as my other hobby is firearms, and dropping the occasional $400 on a new army or expansion pales in comparison to ordering a good rifle and all the accoutrements necessary to get it up and running, to say nothing of the regular cost of ammo to keep your aim on target
Yeah I've about reached my threshold on prices and will most likely just resort to hoardobits and blackdagger as long as they are around (which probably won't be much longer). Sadly, the new kits, aside from the stumpy baby dreads, are pretty good looking.
Also, whle we are comparing GW to other hobbies, it's so hard for me to support GW after my summer love affair with gamer friendly companies like warlord games and Battlefront (who links people's FOW blogs to their front page).
Sometimes I feel like my favorite grim dark hobby company has been hijacked. I'll never leave the 40k universe, but these new prices will stop me from starting my triannual new Marine chapter.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
I'd say we have to wait and see. If the rumors are right Dev's and the Captain may have moved up in the rankings, and no one really knows how the Cets are going to stack up till they hit the table.
I was tempted to pickup a space marine chapter to play with my tau but with all the price hiking I think i can live without. It was bad enough having to buy new broadside for my tau but GW is getting out of control with the price hikes. It feels like every 6 months i hear about how they are getting more expensive. I may have to stop buying into the game before to long. This makes me sad but i'm not going to keep trowing my money at them just to get slapped in the face.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
Well that's your opinion. Personally, I like Devs(especially as I play Crimson Fists). The baby dreadnoughts are terrible models. As for out performing them: I guess you have your codex? Until Saturday, I don't think it's fair to say what sucks and what's great.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
Well that's your opinion. Personally, I like Devs(especially as I play Crimson Fists). The baby dreadnoughts are terrible models. As for out performing them: I guess you have your codex? Until Saturday, I don't think it's fair to say what sucks and what's great.
Even Saturday will be too soon to say this for sure. If the rumors from 40K Radio are 100% accurate, I'm looking forward to trying out devs in Ultramarines, but until a bunch of games have been actually played, it's all theory and guessing. People had a ton of opinions on Tau the day that codex came out, and look how much lists have changed in the past couple months. Even Deamons, people said was weak and no longer a tournament winning book when it was released, and that doesn't look so smart now.
Anybody who tells you "No no, that is bad. Never play that unit!" about something they have zero experience with or against is being, to be polite, a pinhead.
Skriker wrote: A perfect example is that I can get a much higher quality plastic armor kit from a company like Acadmey or Dragon with 10x the detail of any plastic GW armor kit available, photoetched parts AND a turned aluminum gun barrel for around $45. Look at the price of the new marine AA tanks. It is crazy. I will have far more enjoyment and modeling time building my new Dragon 1/35 scale mobelwagon *and* converting it for use with my marines as an AA platform than I will get from building a silly GW armor kit AND it will look even better on the table as well because it is so detailed from the get go.
Why must GW's detractors always plug some other company? I find it pathetic. We're both playing for plastic toys. In the end it's a money and time wasting hobby that we enjoy. If you enjoy some other company's product, good for you. Most of us buy GW models because we like them, not because they're cheap or have some great value. How many tactical squads are you realistically going to buy if they dropped to $1 per box worldwide?
The issue with Devs in 5th was they were expensive, with their marine costs, and the heavy weapons were more expensive too. The result was that a 10 man squad with 4 heavy weapons was going to cost, at a minimum, 230 points, and that springing for the cheapest heavy weapons. If I wanted to spring for a lascannon, it was literally the cost of a rhino, meaning the cost of a squad could easily end up in the high 200s or low 300s.
Compare that to DA, and presumably C:SM, and you can take 10 men, 2 missile launchers with flakk missiles, and 2 lascannons, for about 230 points, the same as the cheapest loadout in 5th. You saved 40 points between 5th and 6th, and that's WITH flakk. Without flakk, it's a 60 point difference.
I do think there will be things comparable in worth in 6th to devastators, but I think Devastators re-entered the scene as a viable HS option, and I think they're pretty much must take for IF/CF, unless you are running tons of Centurions, who with lascannons, will probably be more expensive than 10 Devastators for 3 of them.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
Dreadnoughts are fine, Sternguard are Marines with fancy weapons (easily converted from Command Squad) and the Captain can be used as a Chapter Master with access to the new Relics. Assault Marines are bad in the current Vanilla Codex, they might be playable as Raven Guard in the new Codex. Centurions can't take Plasma Cannons or Multi-meltas and cost 60PPM before upgrades; Devastators are going to put out more firepower but won't be as mobile or tough.
Waaay to expensive for me. I will stick to eBay sniping and proxy models. I would rather stick with GW products but now I shall be filling their competitors pockets by the looks of it. One step too far.
With salvo weapons and lascanon each the centurions out shot devastators .Dreads are bad I haven't seen any one post or use a list with them in 6th . Even rifleman are weak , because av12 and low hull points make them die too fast.
Well as far as Australia is concerned, the new Tacticals are actually rather good. The new Tactical box comes with far more options than the last one and at $65 is only $2 more. The really weird thing is that the Space Marine combat squad is $41. So I could get 5 stock Space Marines with bolters for $41 or 10 with all the different options for $65? I know which ones I am getting. I would also like to weigh in praising the new Sternguard and Vanguard kits, they just look amazing and sooooo many options.
Makumba wrote: With salvo weapons and lascanon each the centurions out shot devastators .Dreads are bad I haven't seen any one post or use a list with them in 6th . Even rifleman are weak , because av12 and low hull points make them die too fast.
You get either Grav Cannons or Lascannons on Centurions, not both. At around 80 PPM for TLLC Centurions you can get 2 Devastators with Lascannons. 2 lascannons > 1 TLLC in terms of firepower. The Centurion is T5, has 2+ armour and can move, but is more vulnerable to Force Weapons, S10 weapons and ID in gereral. It's a trade off, but saying that Devastators will have less firepower simply isn't true.
Regarding Dreadnoughts, with the massive shift away from melta towards plasma Ironclads in Drop Pods are pretty good. Riflemen are still fine, although not as good as in 5th.
DogofWar1 wrote: The issue with Devs in 5th was they were expensive, with their marine costs, and the heavy weapons were more expensive too. The result was that a 10 man squad with 4 heavy weapons was going to cost, at a minimum, 230 points, and that springing for the cheapest heavy weapons. If I wanted to spring for a lascannon, it was literally the cost of a rhino, meaning the cost of a squad could easily end up in the high 200s or low 300s.
Compare that to DA, and presumably C:SM, and you can take 10 men, 2 missile launchers with flakk missiles, and 2 lascannons, for about 230 points, the same as the cheapest loadout in 5th. You saved 40 points between 5th and 6th, and that's WITH flakk. Without flakk, it's a 60 point difference.
I do think there will be things comparable in worth in 6th to devastators, but I think Devastators re-entered the scene as a viable HS option, and I think they're pretty much must take for IF/CF, unless you are running tons of Centurions, who with lascannons, will probably be more expensive than 10 Devastators for 3 of them.
Don't forget Salamanders w/Vulcan for cheap and twin-liked multi-melta shenanigans!
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
I think you're misunderstanding who the Strike Force is aimed at. It may be a bad investment in terms of building a tournament competative list, but in terms of an entry level army whcih gives a good selection of some of the iconic Space Marine units, it's a good deal. It's also a good selection for people learning the rules, as it's a nice varied selection of units. It may be that the new Codex will mean that the best investment for a competative player would be 9 Centurions or whatever, but I think this is a good box for newer players.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
I think you're misunderstanding who the Strike Force is aimed at. It may be a bad investment in terms of building a tournament competative list, but in terms of an entry level army whcih gives a good selection of some of the iconic Space Marine units, it's a good deal. It's also a good selection for people learning the rules, as it's a nice varied selection of units. It may be that the new Codex will mean that the best investment for a competative player would be 9 Centurions or whatever, but I think this is a good box for newer players.
I don't see new players spending 140€ + rulebooks for an army they might not like in a game they might not like. Both 40k and Fantasy lack real entry level packages (appart from DV of course ) which give new players the opportunity to simply try out the game and their favourite faction without spending lots of money first. Of course, a weak (or let's call it unfocused if you prefer) entry level army which forces the new player to buy new units just to have a somewhat adequate chance of winning a game isn't that helpful either.
It doesnt force anyone to buy anything. Once again it is a OPTION that people have.
I would rather have more options than few. If I was going in this would be a nice price break point. Since from a discounter the strike force goes for like 165 it really is a good entry point for someone who wants to start.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
Others have already summed up my thoughts on your reply, but I want to put in my own two cents on a few points.
I have sitting on my workbench a captain and command squad box I picked up before the new sternguard were announced/leaked. The plan was to assemble them as sternguard, so I would have more variety then the ones I was currently using (the old metal box for 5, tyrannic vets for 4, and one really old vet) The command squad box has shoulder pads with terminator honors, the captain box has spare combi weapons. Both boxes have lots of ornate bits and extras enough to bling out marines. You don't need a spare torso to replace the apothecary, if anything, you need more bolter arms. While there may be stores out there that require the exact specific kit to represent a unit, I think those are going to be the minority. WYSWYG sternguard can be as simple as a tac marine with a specific paint job. The sculpted terminator honors and extra bits are just gravy.
C:SM have a number of ways they can be played. Probably more ways then there are players. Some are more competitive, yes, then others. Some units are also better in certain roles. I field a lot of stuff that the internet frowns on. Not all of it in one list, mind you. I'll toss a dread in a list, or field a 5 man assault squad. And they do work. It's easy to get caught up in "BA assaults are better then vanilla" and "Grey hunters out perform tac squads" But I'm playing the game with the cards I've been dealt. I don't ally, I use my units. And while my Ultramarine assault squad is not the flying blender that BA can produce, it is a fine backfield harassment/counter charge unit that has won me games. It's also been mowed down like chumps, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
With the new codex, particularly the new chapter tactics, we are going to have to re-evaluate everything.
Even in the 5th ed codex I'd recommend new players picking up a dev box. Even though devs themselves were mediocre, adding the options to your tac squads was priceless. And even though point-inefficient, devs still work at getting firepower downrange.
The strikeforce is something around $310 worth of stuff for $225. And it's not a one-click bundle, so presumably will be available though your FLGS a/o discounter at whatever better price you can get from them. You can pick 2-3 kits worth of stuff you don't like, throw it out, and still be ahead of the game. If you sell/trade/ebay the stuff you don't want, the deal gets even better. Or just paint and play it, you might be surprised...
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
I think you're misunderstanding who the Strike Force is aimed at. It may be a bad investment in terms of building a tournament competative list, but in terms of an entry level army whcih gives a good selection of some of the iconic Space Marine units, it's a good deal. It's also a good selection for people learning the rules, as it's a nice varied selection of units. It may be that the new Codex will mean that the best investment for a competative player would be 9 Centurions or whatever, but I think this is a good box for newer players.
I don't see new players spending 140€ + rulebooks for an army they might not like in a game they might not like. Both 40k and Fantasy lack real entry level packages (appart from DV of course ) which give new players the opportunity to simply try out the game and their favourite faction without spending lots of money first. Of course, a weak (or let's call it unfocused if you prefer) entry level army which forces the new player to buy new units just to have a somewhat adequate chance of winning a game isn't that helpful either.
They do spend that much though. I've seen it happen quite a few times in my local GW shop. Typically, they have a friend who plays, and they'll spend a couple hours in the shop talking to people and watching some games. They then think about what army they would like, and buy a bunch of the models.
That's the kind of person the Strikeforce is aimed at, and I think it's a good option.
The other kind of "new player" is the one who is given the game as a gift. These are the people who typically just buy the starter box, or are given the starter box.
This is the kind of person the Strikeforce is NOT aimed at.
There's also the third kind of "new player", who drops $1000 and jumps in the deep end. They are more rare, but it happens.
This is the kind of person who buys the Ultrabox, or whatever that super box is called that has a ton of stuff in it.
I think you're misunderstanding who the Strike Force is aimed at. It may be a bad investment in terms of building a tournament competative list, but in terms of an entry level army whcih gives a good selection of some of the iconic Space Marine units, it's a good deal. It's also a good selection for people learning the rules, as it's a nice varied selection of units. It may be that the new Codex will mean that the best investment for a competative player would be 9 Centurions or whatever, but I think this is a good box for newer players.
I don't see new players spending 140€ + rulebooks for an army they might not like in a game they might not like. Both 40k and Fantasy lack real entry level packages (appart from DV of course ) which give new players the opportunity to simply try out the game and their favourite faction without spending lots of money first. Of course, a weak (or let's call it unfocused if you prefer) entry level army which forces the new player to buy new units just to have a somewhat adequate chance of winning a game isn't that helpful either.
I more meant newer players, not completely new players. If I was GW I'd see this as mainly being marketed as people who'd bought DV, liked it and were looking to expand a marine army. For that, I think it fits the bill. Better than yet another 1 click bundle!
So um ... at the risk of not getting involved in pricing complaints ... I noticed on the GW site that the Centurions are in both heavy AND elite slots. Has anyone heard anything on this? Looking at that it almost seems like you could have as many as six squads of them in one army if you filled all three heavy and three elite slots. If the cost of a regular marine falls in line with DA/CSM, you could then fill your remaining points with a horde of cheap MEQ and have what looks to be a pretty shooty army.
Tycho wrote: So um ... at the risk of not getting involved in pricing complaints ... I noticed on the GW site that the Centurions are in both heavy AND elite slots. Has anyone heard anything on this? Looking at that it almost seems like you could have as many as six squads of them in one army if you filled all three heavy and three elite slots. If the cost of a regular marine falls in line with DA/CSM, you could then fill your remaining points with a horde of cheap MEQ and have what looks to be a pretty shooty army.
Assault Centurions are Elites
Devastator Centurions are Heavy Support
So yes, you could have 6 squads of them. 3 each of assault and devastator.
Tycho wrote: So um ... at the risk of not getting involved in pricing complaints ... I noticed on the GW site that the Centurions are in both heavy AND elite slots. Has anyone heard anything on this? Looking at that it almost seems like you could have as many as six squads of them in one army if you filled all three heavy and three elite slots. If the cost of a regular marine falls in line with DA/CSM, you could then fill your remaining points with a horde of cheap MEQ and have what looks to be a pretty shooty army.
The assault versions are elite, the devastator versions are HS. Or so the rumors have lead me to believe. So while you could have 6 squads, only 3 of them would be shooty.
Tycho wrote: So um ... at the risk of not getting involved in pricing complaints ... I noticed on the GW site that the Centurions are in both heavy AND elite slots. Has anyone heard anything on this? Looking at that it almost seems like you could have as many as six squads of them in one army if you filled all three heavy and three elite slots. If the cost of a regular marine falls in line with DA/CSM, you could then fill your remaining points with a horde of cheap MEQ and have what looks to be a pretty shooty army.
Assault Centurions are Elites and Devastator Centurions are HS. I suppose you could get a pretty nasty group of centurions going with a bunch of Tacticals too, but the cost is going to be pretty high. Like, almost your entire army's points go towards Centurions high.
So yes, you could have 6 squads of them. 3 each of assault and devastator.
Ah! Thanks! I figured I had missed something obvious. lol From what I've heard of the assault versions, I can't figure out why you would ever want to take them. Well there goes that list idea!
So yes, you could have 6 squads of them. 3 each of assault and devastator.
Ah! Thanks! I figured I had missed something obvious. lol From what I've heard of the assault versions, I can't figure out why you would ever want to take them. Well there goes that list idea!
Well, they are still T5 with 2W and can take a LR as a dedicated transport. The Siegedrills, while ugly, coupled with a LR as a delivery platform could be a good assault unit opposed to TH/SS terminators. The armorbane USR also adds to their assault ability.
While I think the Devastator version will be better, I think they assault ones will still possess some usefulness in dealing with MC's in CC.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Which is fair, but I am trying to take a wider view. You're right, if the sum-total of hypothetical "value" were the painting of the minis, then I absolutely could sit down with a Reaper Miniature KS pledge, and be set for the next year...
That said, there are countless games which I will never get a chance to play, because while I was lured in by "value" and a volume-to-dollar proposition I couldn't resist, I didn't have the presence of mind to realize that "game value" is zero, if I paint those guys and then want to play with them, only to find that no one in 100-miles plays said game. :-p
I don't ever want to be "that guy", but part of WH40k's allure to me as I sit on hundreds and hundreds of unusable minis (many times from AMAZING, but entirely under-appreciate games, mind you), is that I feel like it comes with insurance. When I get my hobby value out of these, then they will have guaranteed game value as well.
Thanks for the follow up.
Yes your points are all solid ones and make a better argument that the way you had stated it before. You can get lots of modelling hobby out of any kinds of gear, but yes if your local gaming paradigm is focsued towards 40k more than other games then yes you will definitely get more bang for your buck. My FLGS doesn't even see much of any GW gaming anymore. It is all Malifaux, Flames of War and Warmachine/Hordes nowadays for mini gaming. Only GW minis that get seen on the table anymore there are with folks using their WFB minis with Mantic's new ruleset and not actual Warhammer rules.
I sold off my entire collection of Darkest Africa and British colonial figures a few years ago because the player based had pretty much dried up and not everyone likes the concept of Colonial battles. So I have definitely been there. Years ago when they released a boxed set for Warzone, I picked it up because it was FULL of infantry minis. After finding not a single person who wanted to play it I converted them all over for use in 40k. Half became an IG army and the other half because a chaos IG/renegades army) so I still got full use out of the minis despite the game itself being a loss.
And like I said, despite my disagreement with your initial point my disagreement really doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the hobby, find it worthwhile to pay the prices things are sold for now, and are content with it. Your hobby and most importantly your money.
Well, they are still T5 with 2W and can take a LR as a dedicated transport. The Siegedrills, while ugly, coupled with a LR as a delivery platform could be a good assault unit opposed to TH/SS terminators. The armorbane USR also adds to their assault ability.
While I think the Devastator version will be better, I think they assault ones will still possess some usefulness in dealing with MC's in CC.
Those are all good points. I just get a bad feeling from Slow and Purposeful assault units. Especially ones that are that expensive. Although there is an undeniable "cool factor" with the image of a squad of these being dropped in via Storm Raven or Emerging from a Land Raider ...
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Oh, and as an aside... you don't have to justify your opinions to me either. :-) People take hobby stuff too seriously sometimes, and feel the need to look down on people who don't come to the same conclusions that they do.
I have a friend who loves 40k more than anything, in any hobby, and his entirely collection is "counts as" from generic 3rd party, cheapie minis lines. And you know what? I'd never suggest he's anything but the biggest 40k fan I know.
Money spent or saved doesn't determine fandom, and there is plenty of room for all folks in table-top gaming. Cheers!
Skriker wrote: A perfect example is that I can get a much higher quality plastic armor kit from a company like Acadmey or Dragon with 10x the detail of any plastic GW armor kit available, photoetched parts AND a turned aluminum gun barrel for around $45. Look at the price of the new marine AA tanks. It is crazy. I will have far more enjoyment and modeling time building my new Dragon 1/35 scale mobelwagon *and* converting it for use with my marines as an AA platform than I will get from building a silly GW armor kit AND it will look even better on the table as well because it is so detailed from the get go.
Why must GW's detractors always plug some other company? I find it pathetic. We're both playing for plastic toys. In the end it's a money and time wasting hobby that we enjoy. If you enjoy some other company's product, good for you. Most of us buy GW models because we like them, not because they're cheap or have some great value. How many tactical squads are you realistically going to buy if they dropped to $1 per box worldwide?
Why must GW shills ignore the fact that just because someone offers up a counter argument that they are not a GW detractor? I find it pathetic. I have 11 armies for 40k alone. That doesn't include the rest of the GW products I've bought and owned for the last 25+ years and still use regularly for other games by GW.
Given that the person I responded to was making a point on "hobby value" to rationalize the prices, the most direct and effective way to compare to that is to show that cheaper products ALSO bring just as much hobby value and can even bring more. Also I didn't "plug" another company I say "Like" dragon or Academy, also implying other companies like them providing similar products, as there are plenty. That is not a company plug, but an *example* of the types of companies making kits like those I described to support the ACTUAL point I was making. All of the vehicles in both of my IG armies and in my current chaos renegades army are all hyperdetailed 1/35 scale kits and not GW tanks. So I also speak from experience here as well, as I can spend a couple hours working on building a 1/35 Japanese chi-ha tank from some other manufacturer for use as chimera, or I can build an actual GW chimera in 30 minutes from sprue to complete. Modeling value for me does not come from the GW kit in this instance. The better price is just icing on the cake.
I know this is tough for you, but it helps if you actually pay attention to what the post is actually about: In this case it was showing that cheaper products from *any* manufacturer also provide hobby value just as readily as overpriced products from GW. Hard to make a comparison based on price of product comparing GW product to GW product since they are all reaching those heights of silliness on cost.
The number of tactical squads people buy worldwide probably won't change if the price dropped a lousy $1 and that example is just stupid. If they dropped $10-$15 I expect that the volume would increase significantly worldwide.
So I heard command squads lost access to special weapons. Can this really be true? It would make them pretty much pointless, especially combined with the decreased cost of the honour guard, as kitting command squads for CC isn't cost effective either. Not to mention rendering many command squads people already have unusable.
Crimson wrote: So I heard command squads lost access to special weapons. Can this really be true? It would make them pretty much pointless, especially combined with the decreased cost of the honour guard, as kitting command squads for CC isn't cost effective either. Not to mention rendering many command squads people already have unusable.
Here is the latest rumor I've seen. Word is that there are codexes floating around out there already, so we might be able to get firm answers.
Command Squad
1 may be taken for each Captain, Chaplain or Librarian in the army
Apothecary
Storm shields
May trade Bolt Pistols for Bolters
Veterans may take Melee, and Ranged, Special wargear
May take Standard of the Emperor Ascendant
Wargear
Ranged Weapons: Models may replace their Boltgun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following:
Spoiler:
Stormbolter
Combi-Flamer, Melta, Plasma, or Grav
Grav Pistol
Plasma Pistol
Melee Weapons: Models may replace their Boltgun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following:
Spoiler:
Power Weapons
Lighting Claw
Power Fist
Thunderhammer
Special Weapons:
Spoiler:
Flamer
Meltagun
Grav rifle
Plasma gun
While there may be certain combinations that might be invalid, it looks like the bulk of models should be fine. I would not be surprised if you had to swap out a weapon for a storm shield, rather then just adding one like before. But that's wild speculation on my part. I'd not get worked up over rumor at this point: we are almost there!
But Special Wargear is different from Special Weapons, former is things like Auspices, Refractor Fields etc. while the latter are Meltas, Plasmas and so forth.
rigeld2 wrote: Meltas, Plasma, etc fall under ranged weapons...
Not in the armoury. Ranged is Combis, Pistols and Stormbolters. Meltagun, Plasmagun, Flamer and Gravgun are under a separate entry of Special Weapons.
Special Issue Wargear:
Spoiler:
Auspex
Melta bomb
Digital Weapons
Teleport Homer
Jump Pack
Bike
I guess the question is if "Special" wargear refer to "Special Weapons" or "Special Issue" Or both, for that matter. On the bright side, if it is for the wargear, not the weapons, jump pack command squads! But judging what what they have been classically equipped with, I'm going to assume they are talking about the weapons, at least until I get my book. I can see the confusion though.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
I don't know why... but this post just keeps rubbing me the wrong way.
My response is... who cares if the units are the best? I mean... the Strike-Force is a discounted bundle to help folks get started... that's all. GW isn't promising you tournament worthy lists right out of the box.
From my understanding, the included units are relatively straight-forward and each captures a different element of the game mechanically AND the fluff.
My favorite units aesthetically are the Dreadnaughts... should I box them because they're "bad"? Yeah.... no.
I could care less about winning at all costs... and as a new player... if I don't ever use "bad" units and figure out why they don't work within the context of the game... how will I ever grow to learn what I DO want to use, or what works?
well that prerelease was a fething shower.... noone who ordered the Ltd edition through my local got one... all the orders taken on paper and being submitted on the monday, It's apparent that this was known on the monday/tuesday and yet I wasn't contacted till after 3pm today....
first of all this is a fethed off bitchfest no apologies for that
I am curious as to what order was used for processing the in store orders submitted from the stores paper records, was it done by store rank or alphabetically, I know it was submitted and gone through based on recieving the email from CS with the details I gave. It had the right name and the right store and even the Manager didn't get his special edition codex order
Not impressed atm it seems GW in my experience can't run a Ltd release without failure.
The resolutions offered in the email were missing the point of an in store preorder.. you know "Getting it on Release Day" and frankly I expected a little more fething competence and not for the manager to have to tell me he Fought to get them to allow the credit issued to be in store rather than online.
so yeah really not impressed.
Final grade E - it looked so promising and the potential for a well orchestrated response to the website crash gave me hope that a better grade could be issued but.... no.... just no.
Codex - not much choice there, just no no no no to special edition ones, a plain one in brown paper wrap is just fine...
AA Tank - looks good, one more for the car pool I think it may magnet up well for either configuration. Not a must have but it has merit for looking cool.
Vanguard - No. Unless they do something radical. I have the prior metal ones still in the plastic container. Nice bits but, no, no, not needed.
Sternguard - They really look good and by looking at the sprue, the bits are good incentive: figure "must buy".
Tactical marines - Sure, why not, lots of parts, more unique, more guys to mix with the rest of the "horde". How can I get "moahr" grav guns out of this??
Centurions - Awww... sure, yeah, I will get them... hope I can find something obvious to make them look better, first off, need to find MANY magnets. Buy for something to fill-in for my dreadnaughts until they are cool again and for a conversion "challenge".
Darn, that is a lot of money. Why is this the same weekend when the Robotech Kickstarter closes? This is gonna hurt.
I don't see new players spending 140€ + rulebooks for an army they might not like in a game they might not like. Both 40k and Fantasy lack real entry level packages (appart from DV of course ) which give new players the opportunity to simply try out the game and their favourite faction without spending lots of money first. Of course, a weak (or let's call it unfocused if you prefer) entry level army which forces the new player to buy new units just to have a somewhat adequate chance of winning a game isn't that helpful either.
Well, you might be mistaken, because I did it this past Saturday, and two other folks from my shop (none of us who did any group-think), did so the week earlier.
Trust me... in the weird age of Kickstarter and this hobby... dropping $200 isn't even an ordeal anymore for many folks starting a game.... especially, as i've said elsewhere, a game I KNOW has a history, a dedicated community, and games played wherever I go. That knowledge beats the crap, in my mind, out of a random CMoN flavor of the month, which I assure you I will never see played within six months of its release.
everyone says its too much but look at it this way!
£20 for 10 marines?? thats £2 each then think how many times you will use them! thats pretty dam cheap if you ask me!!
its an expensive hobby ive only been doing it since christmas and i must of spent £600+
Yeah, with the lists I've been thinking about running, I'm gonna need moar bikes and probably a Sternguard kit for bits. I think I can run my 1500 list right now if I clip the extra man off the attack bikes and make them regular bikes, but I'm looking at 24 or 25 bikes at 2k, and I don't have quite that many.
Also, will need a whirlwind at 2K, unless I change my planned list up.
So probably a 200 dollar investment sooner or later (probably later), unless I suddenly decide I need a Stormraven or something (which I probably will end up deciding sooner or later, haha)
Also might need more Devastators. If I switch my lists from allying IF to making them primary detachments, I'm gonna need at least 2-3 full squads of those bad boys.
I'd like to see a Heldrake finish off 6 squads of 5 Devastators parked behind an ADL with a Quad gun. "Oh noo....you got 1 squad...now hold still, the other 5 have to shoot at you"
Incidentally, just as an extra contribution, for fun sake, to the pricing discussion.
I just had to buy a Winterguard Infantry set for my Warmachine army. 10 Infantry (or you can buy a box with 13 modesl 3 w/rockets), for $50, in plastic, with ZERO extra bits or options.
I don't know... but price parity with GW doesn't exactly make Privateer look like the white-knights some people treat them as.
The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.
But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.
Half of the new strike force is bad investment.
Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .
I don't know why... but this post just keeps rubbing me the wrong way.
My response is... who cares if the units are the best? I mean... the Strike-Force is a discounted bundle to help folks get started... that's all. GW isn't promising you tournament worthy lists right out of the box.
From my understanding, the included units are relatively straight-forward and each captures a different element of the game mechanically AND the fluff.
My favorite units aesthetically are the Dreadnaughts... should I box them because they're "bad"? Yeah.... no.
I could care less about winning at all costs... and as a new player... if I don't ever use "bad" units and figure out why they don't work within the context of the game... how will I ever grow to learn what I DO want to use, or what works?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Incidentally, just as an extra contribution, for fun sake, to the pricing discussion.
I just had to buy a Winterguard Infantry set for my Warmachine army. 10 Infantry (or you can buy a box with 13 modesl 3 w/rockets), for $50, in plastic, with ZERO extra bits or options.
I don't know... but price parity with GW doesn't exactly make Privateer look like the white-knights some people treat them as.
There are a lot of arguments as to whether or not Warmahordes is cheaper than 40k, and the argument can be made both ways. Counter argument to the cost you mentioned is that, you paid full retail vs. Ebay where you can get the exact same thing for only $36. Secondly, with the Winterguard unit, most lists even at higher points will typically only have a single unit of them, where in 40k it's not uncommon to need 3 or more of the same unit.
IMO Warmachine IS cheaper to start. Even if you end up spending the same amount of money as a 40k army, you get an army that is far more flexible with list building in Warmachine. I've also noticed that no matter what unit you buy from PP, they all seem to be equally useful vs. 40k (Warptalons anyone?).
Don't get me wrong, I love both games as they both have their individual elements that make them unique and fun to play. Cost wise, I have to say I prefer PP as when I buy something from them, I feel like I'm getting more for my money -- which may end up changing with the new GW kits. The Sternguard and Vanguard kits are very nice and come with a lot of options I can glue onto other models to expand my army further.
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Rules wise, anyone else notice that the TFC's have Barrage added to each shot type? That's going to make them even better now.
It also sounds like Vulkan has access to a Command Squad now. That will be epic!
Just noticed in this months WD some bloke in the kit bash section has kitted his tacticals out with a Heavy Flamer! are HFs going to be mor ewidely available now?
stargasm wrote: Just noticed in this months WD some bloke in the kit bash section has kitted his tacticals out with a Heavy Flamer! are HFs going to be mor ewidely available now?
Those who claim to have the Codex already, say no to Tacticals having a Heavy Flamer.
Rysaer wrote: I managed to get my hands on the book/models yesterday, I've opened a thread for questions and I'll do my best to answer as soon as I can.
Wow, the no specials on command squads is a turnaround. Did not see that one coming. It was always expensive, but I didn't think broken. I guess that scraps the 4xgrav gun bike command squad though...
stargasm wrote: Just noticed in this months WD some bloke in the kit bash section has kitted his tacticals out with a Heavy Flamer! are HFs going to be mor ewidely available now?
Silly as it is I really like the concept of heavy flamers and seeing them more readily usable would make me a happy camper.
Edit: Bummer to read shortly after in the thread that this is not to be the case. :(
Thaylen wrote: Can anyone with the new codex tell me if you can still take both a bike and artificer armor?
It looks like the generic CM and Captain can take Artificer AND a Bike. That then unlocks Bike squads of at least 5 models as Troops (ALL bike squads of 5 + models, not just 1 as the rumors were saying).
Yes. Calgar and Lysander went up quite a bit.
Khan and Moondrakken went down a lot.
Tiggy went down a ton.
Most the rest stayed the same or only moved 5-10 points.
tyrannosaurus wrote:
My worry is that more and more people will get priced out of this hobby, in particular at the entry level, which has to be a bad thing. £140 for a starter army [before spending money on the codex, paints, brushes, glue etc.] compared to £30ish for a computer game, I know which I would choose [if I hadn't already been given the hobby bug when I was a kid myself]. Plus, it doesn't really give people the option of trying out the game to see if they like it.
You are forgetting the £400 for a console or the £700+ for a decent gaming PC. I would think that 40k stacks up quite well against almost any other hobby or sport.
Um .... NO.!
You can buy about 10 of the top board games out there for the price of one very entry level 40k army. Teach all of your freinds and play endless varied games. Not just one game with limited player base (due to price, complexity etc).
You can take up fishing. Quite a bit cheaper.
etc. etc.
There are inumerable hobbies that are cheaper than 40k.
I can build a PC to run SC2 for 400 USD. You can't build an army of anything in 40K for 460 USD. As a game, SC2 is so far ahead of 40K it's disgusting.
centuryslayer wrote: flipping through the rulebook, Am I wrong when it looks like only scouts can take the hellfire shells for the HB?
would be awesome devestators could take them and blow the living carp out of Nids >
What really sucks about this is the new HB in the sternguard box. If anyone else was going to get it, it should have been them! Is it wrong that I'm kinda hopeing for a UM supplement, so I get get rules for Tyranid war vets, who get this?
Martel732 wrote: I can build a PC to run SC2 for 400 USD. You can't build an army of anything in 40K for 460 USD. As a game, SC2 is so far ahead of 40K it's disgusting.
Actually my Nurgle Daemons came in under that at 2000 Pts
You can put together a small but decent force of 1500-2000 pts for 460-ish, especially if you hit up the Swap Shop, Ebay or discounters
Ah pay pal so you need credit cards. awesome . That is like saying "when you get a good job , a house , a car and a wife and a good bank account , you will then be able to buy GW stuff cheaper" , not very helpful.
Makumba wrote: Ah pay pal so you need credit cards. awesome . That is like saying "when you get a good job , a house , a car and a wife and a good bank account , you will then be able to buy GW stuff cheaper" , not very helpful.
I'm 20, haven't got a job, house or significant other and I've got a credit card. I really don't see the problem.
Makumba wrote: Ah pay pal so you need credit cards. awesome . That is like saying "when you get a good job , a house , a car and a wife and a good bank account , you will then be able to buy GW stuff cheaper" , not very helpful.
I'm 20, haven't got a job, house or significant other and I've got a credit card. I really don't see the problem.
You don't even need a credit card....a bank account will suffice, which anyone can get.
Exactly, Pay Pal has had quite some improvements.
I've even set it up to take the money directly from my account, so I don't even need to send anything to them myself.
NickTheButcher wrote: So what would the best way to make an Honor Guard unit be? It looks like the current kit is branded with Ultramarine markings......
I would also need to know best way to get power axe and relic blade bits....
The new sternguard kit is so ornate, you could pass them off as honor guard with little effort. Just need to swap weapons around. Same with the Vanguard kit, although they are not as overwrought as their sternguard cousins. But that kit contains a relic blade and at least one axe, I'd have to check and see if there are more on the sprue.
The old DA upgrade sprue has a number of swords that could serve as relic blades as well.
NickTheButcher wrote: So what would the best way to make an Honor Guard unit be? It looks like the current kit is branded with Ultramarine markings......
I would also need to know best way to get power axe and relic blade bits....
The new sternguard kit is so ornate, you could pass them off as honor guard with little effort. Just need to swap weapons around. Same with the Vanguard kit, although they are not as overwrought as their sternguard cousins. But that kit contains a relic blade and at least one axe, I'd have to check and see if there are more on the sprue.
The old DA upgrade sprue has a number of swords that could serve as relic blades as well.
Awesome. I have 2 boxes of Sternguard on order, but those will actually be Sternguard. I do have a new box of VV ordered as well, and I don't think I'll be actually using them as VV though, so I can certainly use the weapons from there. Maybe the DA Vets with the VV weapons would work nicely.
oh yes, I was oogling Honour guard today for my Crimson Fists, Pedro Kantor + 10 Honour guard (with relic blades against MC armies)... Hubba hubba! (cheaper than 10 Sternguard too)
But yeah, I will buy the sternguard kits instead as well ^^
NickTheButcher wrote: So what would the best way to make an Honor Guard unit be? It looks like the current kit is branded with Ultramarine markings......
I would also need to know best way to get power axe and relic blade bits....
The new sternguard kit is so ornate, you could pass them off as honor guard with little effort. Just need to swap weapons around. Same with the Vanguard kit, although they are not as overwrought as their sternguard cousins. But that kit contains a relic blade and at least one axe, I'd have to check and see if there are more on the sprue.
The old DA upgrade sprue has a number of swords that could serve as relic blades as well.
Awesome. I have 2 boxes of Sternguard on order, but those will actually be Sternguard. I do have a new box of VV ordered as well, and I don't think I'll be actually using them as VV though, so I can certainly use the weapons from there. Maybe the DA Vets with the VV weapons would work nicely.
The VV box comes with a Relic blade and at least one axe, there is also a less ornate axe in the assault squad box. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of power swords in both kits too.
I'm 20, haven't got a job, house or significant other and I've got a credit card. I really don't see the problem.
You don't even need a credit card....a bank account will suffice, which anyone can get.
Not here. To get an account in any bank here you either need a job[16+ only unless a judges lets you works sooner] or have a pension [dead parents or beind disabled or having a stypendium of some sort , but those money can only be spend on stuff for school].
Not here. To get an account in any bank here you either need a job[16+ only unless a judges lets you works sooner] or have a pension [dead parents or beind disabled or having a stypendium of some sort , but those money can only be spend on stuff for school].
I suppose that would be much more difficult for people under 16, but if you have no job, then how are supporting the hobby? If your parents help you, than they can simply get a paypal account for online purchases. If my kids wanted to start an army, I'd be more than willing to do it in a way that saves as much money as possible.
Also, for Honour Guard, the standard Grey Knight box is where you need to luck. Cut off/file down the Inquisition symbols and books, and you've got 5 guys in ornate armour with either greatswords for relic blades, cool-looking falchions for power swords, and unique helmets. Mixing them with regular marines bits helps make them look less grey-knight-esque, which the SG or VV box would certainly help with.
They're also much cheaper than any equivalent option, being $35USD for 5 with enough greatswords or falchions to do whatever you want with them, and a handy thunder hammer. I made a ktibashed Gabriel Angelos, 5 honour guard, and replaced all the finecrap swords on the old vanguard with one box, and still had stuff left over to donate to a Blood Angels player to customize some of his units.
The Halberds are also Power Axes when you're playing anything other than Grey Knights. PAGK is where I'm going to go for weapons, helmets and stuff for my BT Honour Guard.
davou wrote: They just fixed the bikes and let command squads take special weapons again.
So, as suspected by many, the Command Squad thing really was an omission. They really can't get these "veteran" type units right, can they? Chaos Termies and the DA Command and Veteran units all needed errata for wargear options.
I just modelled a Sanguinary Guard with the GK-Halberds, that would make for some an awesome Relic Bladed Honour Guard.
lord_blackfang wrote: So, as suspected by many, the Command Squad thing really was an omission. They really can't get these "veteran" type units right, can they? Chaos Termies and the DA Command and Veteran units all needed errata for wargear options.
It's a direct result from forcing almost every unit into a universal wargear-template.
As someone who updates his own "army builder-software" it's a blessing, but it can cause for some issues.
I only feel bad for people who bought a 90 Euro codex that already has a FAQ after two days.
Nope, but they have gigantic wings and nobody sees the Jump Packs It's a small price that I have to pay for not playing BA anymore.
But I will predict that our Honour Guard will have Jump Packs in a year! And when I look at the Honour Guard, I am really looking forward to the SG. They'll be awesome!
Kangodo wrote: I just modelled a Sanguinary Guard with the GK-Halberds, that would make for some an awesome Relic Bladed Honour Guard.
lord_blackfang wrote: So, as suspected by many, the Command Squad thing really was an omission. They really can't get these "veteran" type units right, can they? Chaos Termies and the DA Command and Veteran units all needed errata for wargear options.
It's a direct result from forcing almost every unit into a universal wargear-template.
As someone who updates his own "army builder-software" it's a blessing, but it can cause for some issues.
I only feel bad for people who bought a 90 Euro codex that already has a FAQ after two days.
Martel732 wrote: Gonna miss divination. However, the land speeder storm with assault scouts makes me happy.
You can always take Tigurius as an ally He's the same price as our LvL2 Librarian with a Plasma Pistol. But he is lvl3, has perfect BA-rules and can almost 'pick' his powers while hardly failing any Psychic test and he has an almost perfect Warlord-trait.
My plan is on a Ravenguard ASM-list with Razorbacks, led by Korvydae (I could perhaps take Shrike to Infiltrate my scoring ASM) And I will ally Tigurius with Scouts, maybe take a group of Sternguard and put Tiggy in a droppod with them.
So far, based of what I own, I am looking at Shrike, level 2 libby with jump pack and telepathy, two squads of ASM, two scouts squads in storms, two tac squads with plasma in razors w/las plas, two tacs on foot with h bolters, two pred annihilators, one stalker and aegis line with quad gun.
I'll only need to get the Storms and the Stalker. I have no idea if this will be good or not. I probably need to work in some bikers with grav.
Once again the BT have been left in the dark, its a shame that this game had to swing so violently towards RNG. But don't get me wrong, 6th Ed has made the game much more exciting.
I'm just peeved that BT have been left in limbo, with GW attempting to keep BT fluffy with CC/ challenges whilst slapping a memo down saying "Less CC, More Pew Pew!"
I'm not a competitive player and enjoy creating a list around lore, but I'm finding myself gradually leaning towards converting my BT to Crimson Fist/ Iron Hands for the sake of actually ENJOYING MY GAMES!
Kangodo wrote: I just modelled a Sanguinary Guard with the GK-Halberds, that would make for some an awesome Relic Bladed Honour Guard.
lord_blackfang wrote: So, as suspected by many, the Command Squad thing really was an omission. They really can't get these "veteran" type units right, can they? Chaos Termies and the DA Command and Veteran units all needed errata for wargear options.
It's a direct result from forcing almost every unit into a universal wargear-template.
As someone who updates his own "army builder-software" it's a blessing, but it can cause for some issues.
I only feel bad for people who bought a 90 Euro codex that already has a FAQ after two days.
Kangodo, that is exactly what I hope to do for some new honor guard.
File off the scattered Blood Angel Iconography and I reckon they'd look pretty sweet. And then you added the Grey Knight halberds to them? As someone else previously mentioned, I also have a box of Vanguard incoming so I'll see how I like them for that role as well considering I doubt they will actually be used as Vanguard.
What gets me about the new codex is that they made it so that only certain special characters can be fielded with certain special rules.
This wouldn't be a problem if there was a fair representation for all of the Chapter Tactics.
The Iron hands got the shaft. Hard. They cant have ANY special characters if you want to play with their special rules. The Ultrasmurfs get 6 frakking special characters (2 of which are lame and useless) and the Iron Hands, who are a first founding legion as well, get nothing at all.
Gunnvulcan wrote: What gets me about the new codex is that they made it so that only certain special characters can be fielded with certain special rules.
This wouldn't be a problem if there was a fair representation for all of the Chapter Tactics.
The Iron hands got the shaft. Hard. They cant have ANY special characters if you want to play with their special rules. The Ultrasmurfs get 6 frakking special characters (2 of which are lame and useless) and the Iron Hands, who are a first founding legion as well, get nothing at all.
I'm really mad about that.
Well it's all relative. In the previous book only way to field non-Ultramarine chapters was to take special character, and there was one for only five chapters. There wasn't any for Iron Hands - in fact they were barely mentioned in the book. So in fact this is a big improvement.
Apart from the price, I think if you look at the page which sells them individually, you'll see they're closer to Dreadnought size than Centurion. I was thinking more the Thallax for Centurions:
Always read this thread title too fast in the forum list, and think it says something about 'Marinegasm.' Dyslexia-fueled hopes always dashed by the closer inspection. One of these days I'm going to remember...
Gunnvulcan wrote: What gets me about the new codex is that they made it so that only certain special characters can be fielded with certain special rules.
This wouldn't be a problem if there was a fair representation for all of the Chapter Tactics.
The Iron hands got the shaft. Hard. They cant have ANY special characters if you want to play with their special rules. The Ultrasmurfs get 6 frakking special characters (2 of which are lame and useless) and the Iron Hands, who are a first founding legion as well, get nothing at all.
I'm really mad about that.
You do know that you can make an IHCM on a bike with the EWSS and a TH and he is possibly the most dangerous HQ choice in the book?
He can stand toe to toe with Lysander and Marneus and can deck Draigo all the while being a lot more manoeuvrable.
While he's not fluffy at all, I'd give him a try. He's nails against just about everything.
Makumba wrote: Not here. To get an account in any bank here you either need a job[16+ only unless a judges lets you works sooner] or have a pension [dead parents or beind disabled or having a stypendium of some sort , but those money can only be spend on stuff for school].
You don't need a job to get a bank account. You just need money to put in it in the US. Pretty sure I saw that US flag next to your name Makumba. I had my first bank account at 9 years old if memory serves. I used Christmas club accounts for years to make sure I had money to buy gifts for the family when I was a kid as well. Banks don't care how old you are unless you want a loan or a credit card. Otherwise if all you want to do is store your money you are good to go.
Skriker
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Gunnvulcan wrote: What gets me about the new codex is that they made it so that only certain special characters can be fielded with certain special rules.
This wouldn't be a problem if there was a fair representation for all of the Chapter Tactics.
The Iron hands got the shaft. Hard. They cant have ANY special characters if you want to play with their special rules. The Ultrasmurfs get 6 frakking special characters (2 of which are lame and useless) and the Iron Hands, who are a first founding legion as well, get nothing at all.
I'm really mad about that.
This is pretty stupid that did away with the character flexibility of the original codex. Guess they want to encourage people to play certain chapters and since folks have also commented on the single tunr nature of the Ultramarine tactics, maybe them having extra special characters is supposed to be a bonus. If forcing the special characters on chapters there should be at least 1 special character for every main chapter presented in the book, but oddly for Games Workshop (well not really....) they did not build such parity in to the list. I far prefered the encouragement of the last C:SM that said to take whatever special character you like, paint them up for your army and give them a new name because they were only combos of rules and not linked to a single army.
You don't need a job to get a bank account. You just need money to put in it in the US. Pretty sure I saw that US flag next to your name Makumba. I had my first bank account at 9 years old if memory serves. I used Christmas club accounts for years to make sure I had money to buy gifts for the family when I was a kid as well. Banks don't care how old you are unless you want a loan or a credit card. Otherwise if all you want to do is store your money you are good to go.
Have no idea why it is there. Am Polish , my mail is polish and I am Poland right now . It changed to an american flag one time , when I check my mail while I was at my aunts home in UK.
I suppose that would be much more difficult for people under 16, but if you have no job, then how are supporting the hobby? If your parents help you, than they can simply get a paypal account for online purchases. If my kids wanted to start an army, I'd be more than willing to do it in a way that saves as much money as possible.
I gather cans ,aluminum stuff and copper stuff and then sell it. I sell stuff I gather in woods like berries , mushrooms. I also go to work durning summer to gather stuff in Germany . Most of that goes for my stuff for school ,but the rest I spend on models.
Makumba wrote: Have no idea why it is there. Am Polish , my mail is polish and I am Poland right now . It changed to an american flag one time , when I check my mail while I was at my aunts home in UK.
Ahhh that explains it then. Definitely not the same as in the USA. Was confused as to why you you were saying you needed a job first. Gotcha.
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(Hmm. Maybe Dakka needs a Squat for its ninja emoticon?)
