The Shrike wrote:
"Try?" He rerolls all his choices; and if you ever get a single double, you choose from the list. I'm not a math guy, so I can't give you statistics but I'm guessing it's close to 90% likely he'll get it.

 The Shrike wrote:
It's more than 75% though because if you roll a double on either of the first two rolls, you get to pick right? Am I making this up?

I.E.: I roll a 1 for the first roll and keep it. Second roll I get another 1. I choose Gate.


.....Right?

JinxDragon wrote:
I don't know why being on the table matters in this case. The Puretide Engram Chip starts with the following 'At the start of the bearer's Movement phase' creating a timing limitation. This timing limitation is then further mentioned on page 125 of the basic rule book. Within that mention they are creating further limitations that will prevent special rule that contains these words from being evoked on the turn that a unit comes in from reserves. For the farsight bomb it means they need to be on the table for at least a turn before the chip can be activated thanks to the restriction on page 125.

 The Shrike wrote:
So it says right on page 73 of the Tau codex that pen chips affect only the bearer but I've heard of people using it on buff commanders to grant attached units Monster Hunter or Tabk Hunter etc; what gives? Are they cheating?

 The Shrike wrote:
Does it work on a crisis bodyguard for use in a FarSun bomb?

Eihnlazer wrote:
The only way it wouldn't is if the bodyguard themselves dont count as a seperate unit from the IC.

Can the IC detatch from the bodyguard unit?

If no, then the chip doesnt effect them, if yes then it does.


at least thats my understanding of it.

JinxDragon wrote:
One thing to keep in mind about the Puretide Engram Chip and it's use in a far-sight bomb: It is a 'at the start of the movement phase' special rule. Page 124, I believe as I am trying to go from memory while I am at work but it is one of the last pages in the reserve section, puts restrictions on when a special rule can be used by models coming in from reserves. This would greatly decrease the effectiveness of a Puretide Engram Chip when included in a deep striking unit.

 grendel083 wrote:
There is no "before the start of the movement phase".
(That would be your opponents assault phase)

 DarthOvious wrote:
Interesting, so can a puretide chip be used on the turn in which it deepstrikes in?

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

 grendel083 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Interesting, so can a puretide chip be used on the turn in which it deepstrikes in?

I can't think of anything that would prevent it.
Psychic powers have a specific restriction, as long as the Puretide doesn't you're good to go.

Chrysis wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Interesting, so can a puretide chip be used on the turn in which it deepstrikes in?

I can't think of anything that would prevent it.
Psychic powers have a specific restriction, as long as the Puretide doesn't you're good to go.

I can. Page 125, in bold top left.

JinxDragon wrote:
Shock_at, as much as I hate pulling out this FAQ because of it's gross misuse it is core to the problem at hand,

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

Both of the terms 'start of the turn' and 'start of the movement phase' relate to the same point in the time line, as established by the basic rule book FAQ's, so any rule that effects this time line has to be valid for both terminologies in order to function. This is important as the rules in one section of the basic rule book, reserves and including page 125, use one term while the rest of the book uses another. This wouldn't of been much of a problem if it wasn't for page 125 being a limitation that effects rules outside of this section of the book; making it so this limitation is either a complete waste of ink or the terms are intended to be interchangeable as everything else related to them is interchangeable.

Therefore any special rule that has the 'start of the movement phase' terminology is bound by the page 125 limitations and can not be evoked on the turn you come in from reserves.

 DarthOvious wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Shock_at, as much as I hate pulling out this FAQ because of it's gross misuse it is core to the problem at hand,

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

Both of the terms 'start of the turn' and 'start of the movement phase' relate to the same point in the time line, as established by the basic rule book FAQ's, so any rule that effects this time line has to be valid for both terminologies in order to function. This is important as the rules in one section of the basic rule book, reserves and including page 125, use one term while the rest of the book uses another. This wouldn't of been much of a problem if it wasn't for page 125 being a limitation that effects rules outside of this section of the book; making it so this limitation is either a complete waste of ink or the terms are intended to be interchangeable as everything else related to them is interchangeable.

Therefore any special rule that has the 'start of the movement phase' terminology is bound by the page 125 limitations and can not be evoked on the turn you come in from reserves.

I am having difficulty understanding this. You quote a FAQ which confirms that I can use the Puretide Chip but then afterwards you tell me I can't. The FAQ you cited says that I get to decide what order to declare things. So I deepstrike in with Farsight and then I declare I am using the PEN before doing my movement.

Chrysis wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Shock_at, as much as I hate pulling out this FAQ because of it's gross misuse it is core to the problem at hand,

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

Both of the terms 'start of the turn' and 'start of the movement phase' relate to the same point in the time line, as established by the basic rule book FAQ's, so any rule that effects this time line has to be valid for both terminologies in order to function. This is important as the rules in one section of the basic rule book, reserves and including page 125, use one term while the rest of the book uses another. This wouldn't of been much of a problem if it wasn't for page 125 being a limitation that effects rules outside of this section of the book; making it so this limitation is either a complete waste of ink or the terms are intended to be interchangeable as everything else related to them is interchangeable.

Therefore any special rule that has the 'start of the movement phase' terminology is bound by the page 125 limitations and can not be evoked on the turn you come in from reserves.

I am having difficulty understanding this. You quote a FAQ which confirms that I can use the Puretide Chip but then afterwards you tell me I can't. The FAQ you cited says that I get to decide what order to declare things. So I deepstrike in with Farsight and then I declare I am using the PEN before doing my movement.

No. The FAQ says they happen at the same time. That time is the beginning of the turn. Page 125 says you can't use things that must be used at the beginning of the turn on the turn you enter from reserves. The order of events is irrelevant because using the ability is prohibited.

rigeld2 wrote:
And then you read page 125 which says it can't be done the turn you deep strike.

Seriously - why are you ignoring page 125?

 Lemartes12 wrote:
The Chip also doesn't give you the option to use it you HAVE to use it you just get to choose what it does.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
It states "At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following rules... blah blah blah rest of the rules"

It does not give you the option to not use it, so you aren't really using it as much as it has to happen.

So in a tournament if you feel like being a D*** and your enemy takes this and doesn't declare what he is using you can tell the judge he is cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also with the rules regaurding reserves the FAQ says you choose the order. IE you choose for your reserves to come in before anything else happens. As long as you deploy them prior to moving other units not coming in by reserves.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
Wouldn't that invalidate any Ultra Marine chapter tactics for units coming in from deep strike then? IE Turn 1 you delcare Tac Doctrine and drop your tac squads, so they wouldn't get this rule because they came in from reserve?

rigeld2 wrote:
And none of that matters at all to the issue in question. I'll quote the relevant part of the rule since no one has decided to read it.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Bold is mine. The order is irrelevant - if it has to be used at the start of the turn (it does) it can't be if you just arrived from reserves.

Seriously - it was cited previously. Continuing the argument without knowing all the rules involved is less than polite.

 DarthOvious wrote:
The FAQ might say that the turn & the movement phase start at the same time BUT that does not mean that they equate each other.

The wording you are saying would mean that Psykers would not get to do their spells after deepstriking since they cast them at the start of the movement phase, but funnily enough the FAQ you cited actually confirms that it is allowed.

The rule on page 125 also says "use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn". The puretide chip is not an ability it is a piece of wargear and the special rules it bestows are NOT USED AT THE START OF THE TURN, they are used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. For instance, the term special rules is referencing the special rules section of the rulebook. As such:

In other words you can use the puretide chip because it is a piece of war gear. IT IS NOT AN ABILITY OR SPECIAL RULE IN ITSELF.

The rule you are referencing is to declare that abilities or special rules THAT GET USED at the start of the turn are not allowed after deepstriking. This is because the chance to use them has passed.

rigeld2 wrote:

They really do.

No, funnily enough you're misreading the FAQ. Also, page 67 disallows Psykers from casting blessings/maledictions the turn they arrive.

When does it bestow the special rule? That's what you look at, not what the special rule does.

Caps is cruise control for cool. You can tone it down and no one would mind.
War Gear grants abilities. PEC's ability is to grant special rules. When do you use that ability?

And PEC is used at the start of the turn.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

They really do.

Do they? The FAQ just said it happens at the same time. It did not equate them. So what are you using to state this?

When does it bestow the special rule? That's what you look at, not what the special rule does.

No actually. The rule just says you can't use any abilities or special rules at the start of the movement phase if deepstriking. Read it again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

The special rules conferred do not get used at the start of the movement phase. They get used in the shooting & assault phases.

Wargear are not abilities so it doesn't matter. For instance jump packs are wargear and you can use them when deepstriking at the start of the movement phase. So obviously wargear can be used when deepstriking. The special rules are not being used at the start of the movement phase, so it doesn't''t matter. The wording of the Tau rule also says you pick one special rule and that's it. It doesn't say you may pick one ability, it says that you pick one and the unit has that rule. In other words I need to pick a rule from the list.

I am not using an ability or special rule at the start of the movement phase, so what is the problem?

This is backed up by the fact that the special rules section in Tau Codex does not include the PEN. The PEN is listed under Signature Systems. So According to the Tau Codex the PEN is not a special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

Cite the phase prior to the start of the movement phase. Please prove it exists - you're asserting it does.

That's not what I'm saying. I don't care about the special rules that are conferred - they're irrelevant.

Your jump pack comparison highlights your misunderstanding.
Movement isn't an ability. Conferring a special rule on yourself is.

Is it an ability?

Are you attempting to use it at the start of the turn?

So Wargear cannot ever grant special rules or abilities? That's what you're asserting.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Logan's FAQ cinched it.

They are worded the same, and the same abilities are granted even.

Fragile wrote:
Many codex rules are in violation of BRB rules, until you can show an exemption for the one you have in particular, the BRB rule would stand. Logan can do unique things that no one else can, that does not mean everyone can.

JinxDragon wrote:
I will need to read more on Logan and how the FAQ relates to the PureTide Engram Chip before I can state for sure how it sways my view on the 'start of the movement phase.' There are certain aspects that could render this FAQ limited to just the one character, or it could be used for precedent grounds. I do not have the resources right now and will have to refrain from commenting on it till I can do some more in depth research. It would be nice to have something I could use to over come page 125, as the PureTide is something I consider a high priority and the only downside it has is page 125.

As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The order these things happens in is irrelevant - you are coming in from reserve, and you have to use this special rule at the start of the movement phase. Page 125 outright forbids this from occurring

There is no conflict - for there to be a conflict the Codex would have to state "even when arriving from reserves".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

Well:
-There is nothing that says you can't choose a special rule prior to entering the board.
-If two things happen at the same time (at the start if the movement phase) the player gets to choose the order they occure.
-No ability is being used, one is just being chosen, which does not counter any rules.
-Logan's FAQ changed no wording, it just says it can happen. So a different model with a rule worded the same way would get the same ruling. If they actually changed his rule, it would have been errata'd not FAQd.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the FAQ on Logan shows that they altered the rules to allow Logan to do this

Please, show where this FAQ allows anyone else to do this. Page and graph.

Well:
-There is nothing that says you can't choose a special rule prior to entering the board.
-If two things happen at the same time (at the start if the movement phase) the player gets to choose the order they occure.
-No ability is being used, one is just being chosen, which does not counter any rules.
-Logan's FAQ changed no wording, it just says it can happen. So a different model with a rule worded the same way would get the same ruling. If they actually changed his rule, it would have been errata'd not FAQd.

So what you're saying is that while there is no rule to allow it, Logan's special rule provides a precedent?

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

Fragile wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule on page 124 doesn't apply to rules that must be used.
It applies to rules that must be used at the start of the turn.

It's not choosing to use the rule that bans it. You're choosing to use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn. Therefore the rule on p124 comes into effect.

Well Logans ability comes into affect at the start of the turn and that was FAQd to be aloowed when deepstriking. Its true that if they changed the ruling it would have been errated and not FAQd. So In essence it does set a precedent.

Tyranid ICs cannot join a unit in a spore pod, therefore by that reasoning, no other army's ICs can join units either in drop pods. ( Using the Logan example for context.)

Fragile wrote:
No, its about a basic rule that says ICs can join units in drop pods. But then, for no explained reason a FAQ says Tyranids cannot. That FAQ changes the rules.

You cannot use start of turn powers when you come in from reserve. Then for no explained reason, its says Logan can. This FAQ breaks a rule.

You cannot use a FAQ answer for anything other than what it specifically addresses. You cannot claim precedent or you can start pulling your ICs out of your droppods with your Sternguard vets.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It's just wargear that let's you choose a special rule.

None of the rules it confers affect the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be like saying a combo plasma gun can't shoot the plasma the turn it deep strikes in.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
It's just wargear that let's you choose a special rule.

None of the rules it confers affect the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be like saying a combo plasma gun can't shoot the plasma the turn it deep strikes in.

No, it's not. The combi has no rule saying it must be used at the start of the movement phase.
Come up with a relevant example please.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

That's it, its just a decision. What rules disbar me from making decisions? I wouldn't be able to move forward with the game if I couldn't make any decisions. So I deep strike in but alas I'm not allowed to make decisions any more according to you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, the decision is not made in the shooting phase - that's been proven.

That's it, its just a decision. What rules disbar me from making decisions? I wouldn't be able to move forward with the game if I couldn't make any decisions. So I deep strike in but alas I'm not allowed to make decisions any more according to you.

No, it's a decision that happens because of wargear. And what's denied on the turn you deep strike?

 DarthOvious wrote:
1) FAQ for Logan allows him to use his ability. People have already referred to an FAQ to try and link start of movement to being equal to start of turn, so it cannot be discounted. If you discount it as being invalid becase the guys who wrote it don't know what they are doing then the previous FAQ cited must be invalid on the same basis.

 grendel083 wrote:
Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

The FAQ for Logan's ability applies to Logan's ability, not every ability used at the start of the movement phase.
This is an exception to the rule on p124, not a blanket excuse to ignore the rule.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

This has been covered, the special rules granted are all used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. So none of them are used at the start of the turn which the rule on Page 125 states. All thats done at the start of the bearers movement phase is that the rule to be used is nominated. It basically says, pick a rule and you have that rule until the bearers next movement phase.

 DarthOvious wrote:
If they wanted to change Logans ability then they could have used the errata to change the wording. The fact it was acknowledged in the FAQ would seem to suggest that they never intended for the rule to be used in that manner.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

You're assuming I haven't.
You'd be wrong. That's what you get for assuming.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Actually you gave an exclusive statement - do this OR this, with no possibility for and / or. ANd rigeld proved your assumption, that there is only an OR, wrong, by doing both.

So "you guys can...." is a false statement, based on a faulty assumption. No assumption required to show that, just logic

 Nilok wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you guys can argue about this forever or you could all send GW and email and get the question FAQ'd

Unfortunately they haven't FAQ'd anything in months unless it was a missprinting in the codex.

Also this is You Make Da Call, there is no arbitrator here but brute force.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Are you saying Wargear can never grant an ability?
So the Ork wargear "Docs Tools" doesn't grant FNP?

This has been covered, the special rules granted are all used in the shooting or assault phases of the game. So none of them are used at the start of the turn which the rule on Page 125 states. All thats done at the start of the bearers movement phase is that the rule to be used is nominated. It basically says, pick a rule and you have that rule until the bearers next movement phase.

No - your interpretation cannot be correct. The unit does not have those special rules. The wargear gives you the ability to choose one of those special rules.
You're ignoring the middle fact - that the wargear gives you the ability to choose. That's your mistake.

 DarthOvious wrote:
If they wanted to change Logans ability then they could have used the errata to change the wording. The fact it was acknowledged in the FAQ would seem to suggest that they never intended for the rule to be used in that manner.

How is that relevant? GW changes rules in FAQs frequently. And even if you're going to (incorrectly) assert it's not a rule change how does that give precedent to anything? Or are you going to agree that precedent says ICs cannot embark into transports during deployment based on the Tyranid FAQ denying ICs entry into mycetic spores?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darth - yes, you make a choice. That choice has an effect that something is used - you go from not having monster hunter to having monster hunter

Yes.

You are using an ability. You then may not ever use the consequence of that ability (the rule, for example MH) that turn, but have still had to do something in order to have that chance.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

Page 125 flat out restricts this, with no RAW reasoning otherwise. Logan has a specific exception allowing his THK ability to function, despite it also often granting a rule (relentless) that only applies during the shooting phase.

Rob

Page 125 does not restrict it. Read it again. It resticts Special rules or abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn when deepstriking. Monster Hunter is not used at the start of the turn.

What is in question here is if the wargear to nominate the rule can be used or not because the decision is made at the start of the turn. As I said though, wargear in itself is not an ability or specail rule. The PEN isn't even listed under the Tau Special Rules, it is listed in the signature systems area of the codex. The wording doesn't even say that the PEN is used, the rules says pick a rule, you have that rule. It doesn't give me an option to not use it. Its says I pick a rule and I have that rule.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
^
This is what i was talking about.
Anyway interested in seeing how they FAQ it. IMO im going to have to go with the wargear thing. Otherwise RAW would disallow some chapter tactics from affecting marines based off the wording.

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

You are using an ability. You then may not ever use the consequence of that ability (the rule, for example MH) that turn, but have still had to do something in order to have that chance.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

What is in question here is if the wargear to nominate the rule can be used or not because the decision is made at the start of the turn. As I said though, wargear in itself is not an ability or specail rule. The PEN isn't even listed under the Tau Special Rules, it is listed in the signature systems area of the codex. The wording doesn't even say that the PEN is used, the rules says pick a rule, you have that rule. It doesn't give me an option to not use it. Its says I pick a rule and I have that rule.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

JinxDragon wrote:
As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

What is in question here is if the wargear to nominate the rule can be used or not because the decision is made at the start of the turn. As I said though, wargear in itself is not an ability or specail rule. The PEN isn't even listed under the Tau Special Rules, it is listed in the signature systems area of the codex. The wording doesn't even say that the PEN is used, the rules says pick a rule, you have that rule. It doesn't give me an option to not use it. Its says I pick a rule and I have that rule.

None of which is relevant - you're still using it to pick a rule.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

It's preposterous because some things might not work the way you're expecting? What?
And the UM Chapter Tactics is the only one potentially affected by this. I say potentially because it's not the deep-striking unit activating the rule. But let's not let actual rules get in the way of your crusade.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

For goodness sake, there is NO LIMITATION ON GRANTING ABILITIES ON PAGE 125. It just says you can't use any abilties that have to be used at the start of the turn.

2) Deepstrike unit and choose ability for the PEN. I am not using an ability and I am not using a special rule at this point of the game. So Page 125 is not relevant at this point.

Notice how Jet Packs can still be used in the assault phase, even in a turn when they have deepstriked. So just because they have deepstriked this does not affact their abilities that they use in the assault phase.

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

I meant in relation to The High King Rule. Did they change the codex rule or the BRB rule?

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

Why not just change the wording and errata it? They did that with the Blood Chalice gear for Blood Angels. They changed the wording to make sure it only applied to BA units.

Games Workshop even say that FAQs are their INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. You can argue that they change rules all the time if you like but GW have said themselves that their FAQs are the interpretation of the rules currently in place and are different from errata.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

I am not conflating special rules & abilites. I am just stating that the PEN is neither of them.

Abilities can still be granted for using in the shooting and/or assault phases of the game.

And what stops me from picking a rule? I am not using the rule yet. The wargear allows me to pick a rule for later use. There is nothing to say that I cannot use wargear. Even then it doesn't say that I am using said wargear. The wargear itself grants a special rule every turn. I just have to pick that rule every turn at the start of the movement phase. However it doesn't say I am actually using the wargear at that point in order to do it.

Oh I see, so you want to be able to argue for the use of the Ultramarines traits but you will deny that the PEN is allowed. The Ultramarines traits say that the doctrines are picked at the start of the turn. All of the doctrines that are listed are either used by models or used by units that turn. So deepstriking units will be using a trait that you CHOOSE at the start of the turn. The PEN chip says I can get to pick a rule for the unit for the turn, so if you want to get technical over it the unit isn't activating the rule, I am. It says that I get to pick the rule, so I am making the choice.

To do so, at the start of your turn, state which doctrine you wish to use (if any)- that doctrine is in effect until the beginning of your next turn.

The same reasoning you are using for Ultramarine doctrines I can use for the PEN. The wargear just allows ME to pick a special rule for that unit every turn. My wargear is functioning in the exact same way as those Ultramarine traits.

Errata provide corrections to the errors that sometimes creep into our books. It is important to note that Errata carry the same 'authority' as the main rules and permanently modify published material; where one of our books says one thing and the errata changes this to something else, the errata takes precedence as the 'correct' version of that material.

Amendments are changes made to our rules in order to make them work within a new context; the most common example would be when a new core rulebook is released which then has a knock-on effect of invalidating existing material. They are not designed to fix newly created weaknesses or shortfalls, but simply to ensure that no rule, unit, item of equipment or whatever else is left incompatible with the current edition of the game.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

The bolded has no basis in the actual rules.

DarthOvious wrote:The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

Lemartes12 wrote:You say it has no basis but you don't give me a reason why it doesn't. The abilities granted by a blessing either A) count as a rule or ability and therfore are denied use to the unit arriving by deepstrike or B)Do not count as a rule/ability and do affect the unit. The same thing would apply to the war gear it either is or it isn't. You can not say one is and the other isn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

Actually, it's easy to say one is and the other isn't.
One is used by the unit at the start of the turn. The other is cast by another unit that has no restrictions on it.
There's no rule denying a benefit from an outside source - just that a unit entering from reserve can't use abilities or special rules. You've invented a circumstance and you're trying to make it fit when it doesn't.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Actually, it's easy to say one is and the other isn't.
One is used by the unit at the start of the turn. The other is cast by another unit that has no restrictions on it.
There's no rule denying a benefit from an outside source - just that a unit entering from reserve can't use abilities or special rules. You've invented a circumstance and you're trying to make it fit when it doesn't.

How does it not fit?

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

For goodness sake, there is NO LIMITATION ON GRANTING ABILITIES ON PAGE 125. It just says you can't use any abilties that have to be used at the start of the turn.

And what is granting that special rule (not ability - there is a difference)?

2) Deepstrike unit and choose ability for the PEN. I am not using an ability and I am not using a special rule at this point of the game. So Page 125 is not relevant at this point.

So the PEC doesn't grant you the ability to choose a special rule? You have that ability without the PEC?

Notice how Jet Packs can still be used in the assault phase, even in a turn when they have deepstriked. So just because they have deepstriked this does not affact their abilities that they use in the assault phase.

Are Jet Packs wargear that must be used at the beginning of the turn? No? Then why are you comparing them? It's like words matter or something.

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

I meant in relation to The High King Rule. Did they change the codex rule or the BRB rule?

Since the FAQ was in the Codex section and not the BRB section, it'd be the codex specific rule.

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

Why not just change the wording and errata it? They did that with the Blood Chalice gear for Blood Angels. They changed the wording to make sure it only applied to BA units.

Because they didn't feel like it? It's not my place to guess why - I can only go by what's given.

Games Workshop even say that FAQs are their INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. You can argue that they change rules all the time if you like but GW have said themselves that their FAQs are the interpretation of the rules currently in place and are different from errata.

And when their interpretation is in direct contradiction to the written rule, did they change the rule or does the written rule stand?

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

I am not conflating special rules & abilites. I am just stating that the PEN is neither of them.

Abilities can still be granted for using in the shooting and/or assault phases of the game.

You are conflating them. I bolded one example above and copy/pasted another from your post.

And what stops me from picking a rule? I am not using the rule yet. The wargear allows me to pick a rule for later use. There is nothing to say that I cannot use wargear. Even then it doesn't say that I am using said wargear. The wargear itself grants a special rule every turn. I just have to pick that rule every turn at the start of the movement phase. However it doesn't say I am actually using the wargear at that point in order to do it.

The wargear grants you a nifty ability. What is that ability? That you must pick a special rule at the beginning of your movement phase. How are you picking that special rule? By using the ability that the PEC grants.

Oh I see, so you want to be able to argue for the use of the Ultramarines traits but you will deny that the PEN is allowed. The Ultramarines traits say that the doctrines are picked at the start of the turn. All of the doctrines that are listed are either used by models or used by units that turn. So deepstriking units will be using a trait that you CHOOSE at the start of the turn. The PEN chip says I can get to pick a rule for the unit for the turn, so if you want to get technical over it the unit isn't activating the rule, I am. It says that I get to pick the rule, so I am making the choice.

The UM traits are not used my models or units.

To do so, at the start of your turn, state which doctrine you wish to use (if any)- that doctrine is in effect until the beginning of your next turn.

Note how it's not an individual unit using it, you're stating overall which one you wish to use and then individual units/models can benefit.

The same reasoning you are using for Ultramarine doctrines I can use for the PEN. The wargear just allows ME to pick a special rule for that unit every turn. My wargear is functioning in the exact same way as those Ultramarine traits.

Demonstrably false.

 DarthOvious wrote:
I can choose a special rule, that doesn't mean I am using said rule.

Are Jet Packs wargear that must be used at the beginning of the turn? No? Then why are you comparing them? It's like words matter or something.

So Jet Packs don't deep strike? If Jet Packs deep strike are they not counted as moving at the start of the turn/movement phase according to you.

The codex specific rule which works as the same in your eyes to the PEN? And considering that the FAQ is interpretation of the rules then surely they interpretate the PEN in the same way then since they said so.

And what else did they give you? They gave you their intent of the FAQs and what they are used for.

They didn't change the rule, their interpretation just doesn't match the one you want or the the one you think is the correct interpretation. I have done my best to explain why to you, however you refuse to listen to such an interpretation to begin with.

The PEN is given to my unit at army list stage, so technically it grants the unit a special rule every turn when I write the army list.

Also how are Ultramarine units getting thier abilities/special rules? By using the ability provided by doctrines? So by your own logic Ultramarines can't use their rules when deepstriking either.

Yeah, to be bad using your interpretation units that deepstrike can't use them then. That is how afterall how Page 125 says it. Read Again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

Doctrines are declared at start of turn and applies to units. So using your faulty interpretation would render Ultramarine chapter traits as being invalid when deepstriking.

No its not. Not using your interpretation its not.

rigeld2 wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

No, there's no basis to assume that the interpretation must be equal. GW's official interpretation of Logan's rules was that it worked. There's no evidence that they meant it to be broader than that.
Even with that, that's an argument of intent. A completely different discussion.

Yes there is. They said it themselves. What they said is VERY clear. You now have no leg to stand on.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

What part of official interpretation of the existing rules do you not understand? Read what it says.

1) "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata"

They clarrify that these are NOT RULES OR ERRATA. They are not a change to said rules. They are an interpretation of the current rules already in place.

2) " they should be considered the 'official' interpretation"

The even say that these rulings ARE THE OFFICAL INTERPRETATION OF SAID RULES.


Now considering that in your eyes, the function of the PEN is EXACTLY THE SAME FUNCTION AS LOGANS RULE. Then how come the same interpretattion cannot be made. In your eyes Logan can do what the PEN cannot do despite the fact that they work in the exact same way and despite the fact that GW said that this is not a rules change but an interpretation of already existing rules.

Once again.

1) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit Deepstrike onto table.

2) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit choose Special Rule. In your eyes both abilites to do this say they happen at the start of the turn.

3) Logans Unit/ PEN Unit use special rule in shooting phase i.e. Tank Hunter.

Once again, GW have clarrified that they HAVE NOT MADE ANY RULE CHANGES HERE and that they have INTERPRETATED EXISTING RULES IN PLACE. That means the interpretation for Logan can also be applied to the PEN. It works, in your eyes, exactly the same way as Logans rule.

JinxDragon wrote:
Units deep striking only do so for one simple reason: They have the deep striking rule.

Even if you where to remove the jump pack, but leave the deep striking rule in place, then the unit still would be able to deep strike. Nothing within the deep striking rule states 'you can only use it if you have X war-gear,' so it clearly is not limited or linked in any way to a specific type of wargear.

JinxDragon wrote:
Units deep striking only do so for one simple reason: They have the deep striking rule.

Even if you where to remove the jump pack, but leave the deep striking rule in place, then the unit still would be able to deep strike. Nothing within the deep striking rule states 'you can only use it if you have X war-gear,' so it clearly is not limited or linked in any way to a specific type of wargear. There are also units out there with deep striking rules yet lack a jump pack, jet pack or any other obvious piece of war-gear which the special rule is applied through. They simply have it on their base model, and still can use it even with the lack of war-gear that is normally associated with deep striking.

Nor, to my understanding as I am going off memory, is there a rule that states the deep striking unit can not use a jump or jet-pack after deep striking. The one you are likely thinking on limits specific types of movement after deep striking, movement types that can legally be done by all units and not just those with war-gear granting deep strike. Instead of out right limiting any war-gear, this rule instead puts the limitation on things like 'movement phase' or 'charging.' Should I be remembering properly, thrust move during the assault phase still possible even for units that deep strike in.

 grendel083 wrote:
Weapon mountings almost never listed. It wasn't in this case, you normally look to the model. It clearly isn't a turret.

Turret mounting do not always have a 360* arc. It's arc is how much it can actually rotate. A Storm Raven turret for example cannot rotate 360*.

And again, the base should never be used to determine weapon range or arc of sight on a vehicle. The FAQ is directly changing the rules.

So should a Strom Raven use the Heldrake FAQ to allow using the base?

 Miri wrote:
So.. no abilities can be used on the turn a unit arrives from reserves. Even ones that appear to be automatic such as the must choice of the PEN chip. Does this also mean that a psyker doesn't generate his warp charges?

In another vein, using psychic powers is a 'you may' choice. The PEN chip seems to read as a 'you must' choice. The codex says I absolutely MUST choose a special rule. How does one get around the 'you must' obligation in the wording of the PEN chip?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

 DarthOvious wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

He is missing the point that it says that the unit can't do what he is talking about. Players and other units can still do things. He is also missing the point that the PEN doesn't give you the option to choose, it tells you to pick a rule and the unit has that rule. To not pick a special rule for the unit would be to not follow the wording for the PEN and thus you have taken BRB as being precendent over Codex, which according to page 7 of the BRB is not the case.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

Rules on page 7 is a bad point on which to discuss this particular arguement, its a passage which is often misunderstood and it won't get you very far here. I advise to move on from this point.

However, I would argue that as the ability is not 'used' by the 'unit' at the start of the turn and is therefore not subject to the restrictions on page 125, with the being intent of page 125 to stop literal abilities from use without opponent being able to act to counter (Similar from first turn infiltrators etc.). This would explain the why behind the Logan FAQ and perhaps open up to more ability timing and type discussions.

Unless I have missed it while reading through the thread, there has not been any GW defined meanings of ‘Used’ being discussed? I think this is a good direction to move the thread in and is actually the make or break point.

JinxDragon wrote:

I disagree Lemartes12, as page 125 only prevents an ability on the model coming from reserve from being evoked.

In the case of the pskyer, the model evoking the rule is not the target of the blessing. Page 125 does not contain any line stating any unit coming from reserve can not be targeted. Given that the model containing the psyker rule was on the table at the start of the turn, it is not bound by page 125 or the duplicate restrictions found in the psyker section of the book and can cast the ability. As there is nothing on page 125 preventing something being targeted at the start of the movement phase, nothing is preventing it from being the target of a blessing.

The chapter tactics do raise a few questions but that is because we have no clue whom is evoking the rule. Nearly every model has this rule but it is an army wide benefit that comes from it. It is therefore impossible for us to state that the model evoking the rule is one that came in from reserve, it could just as easily be one that has been on the table since deployment. Seeing we don't know for sure whom is evoking the special rule, we can not state it is denied simply because some other model came in from reserve.

As for the Puretide being a 'player choice,' I am not at all convinced. It is a single rule that can be found on a specific model, unlike chapter tactics which is almost army wide. The rule itself contains references to the bearer and the benefits is immediately applied to the bearer. There is nothing at all to suggest that it is different then other, arguably, denied abilities with similar wording simply because the player is involved in the decision making process. The ability clearly originates from a single source, so if we have a rule denying an ability being evoked from a source when it comes in from reserves....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darth - so you assert that the start of the movement phase is NOT the start of the turn? Please find this mysterious point before the movement phase then. Page and Paragraph.

The unit is choosing the rule they will have.

You can use blessings on a unit that arrives on turn, from a psyker already on the table, because - rules. The rules on p125 only disallow you from using your own abilities.

Logan works because they FAQd him to work. NO other reason. You can argue intent all your like.

You still have no rules based argument. You are purely arguing intent. As per the rules of the forum please state this in your posts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

Except the rules for IC's specifically allow it. Funny it's as if the rules actually matter.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

Please understand the difference between a unit benefiting from an outside decision and a unit making decision. You're coming up with some interesting red herrings.

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

JinxDragon wrote:
When you get down to technicalities, it is always the player that makes a choice whenever any is presented as the models are just pieces of cheap resin. Therefore we can not simply state that the player's involvement in the process is enough to allow us to ignore limitations presented on page 125. Even if we could take that argument, in the case of chapter tactics, that player involvement in the 'choice' changes whom is using the ability then you would still need to prove the PureTide Engram Chip is designed to operates in the same way, instead of operating identical to rules with the same limitations. I am not convinced of this fact because it is a specific rule on a single model that talks about a benefit that only that model gets, which is granted to it at the specific point in time addressed by page 125.

As for your five questions:
1) The use of the word unit means it is a unit wide limitation, therefore all models within said unit are also bound by the limitation unless they have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

2) This one is technically correct from a law-rules point of view; because the term it uses is 'start of the turn' and not movement phase. The problem with this interpretation is the fact that the terminology used in the special rule section is 'start of the movement phase.' If the two are not interchangeable then we have a limitation written for rules that do not exist! Interestingly, the one ability which would seem to fit perfectly into the limitation on page 125 was overturned by FAQ....

3) War-gear grant special rules and abilities, which are then in turn used by the model that possesses the war-gear unless the rule itself tells you otherwise.

4) It doesn't matter if it was an ability triggered without choice, it would still have to deal with the limitations on page 125.

5) Of course or else there is no issue at all, as the page 125 limitation is only on units coming in from reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shout all you like, it doesnt alter your error

The start of the movement phase is defined as the first paert of the turn. The two are equal terms. Deny this all you like, it does not alter the rules.

Regarding FAQs - our point is that they use the FAQ to change rules, such as Logans. Whcih it is - it was a rule change in 5th, and is still a rule change now. So your argument, whcih was based on the concept that FAQs do not change rules, is undermined. That is it.

The unit indeed has been granted this ability, as without the PEN they do not have the capability to choose the special rule. You may have explained, but given your faulty understanding of a basic concept, your explanation continues to be an incorrect one.

You have been told, and explained, the rules many times now. Play how you like, however please do not claim you do not know the rules.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

How bout you go back to the post i made which says benefiting from a blessing falls under special rules by the logic you presented. Your right reading IS Fun(damental)

DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

So that does mean that benefiting from a choice is not an ability? Perhaps you take your own suggestion at reading things.

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

 Lemartes12 wrote:
When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

I disagree that everything is a special rule. I've never said that it is - you've been assuming I have.
edit: And I did answer it, just not in a very direct fashion - I apologize for that. The fact that I disagreed with the conclusion and said that there was no basis in the rules for it should have indicated that I disagreed with the premise as well... but it wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?
Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.
Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

Thank you for asking instead of assuming.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

I disagree that everything is a special rule. I've never said that it is - you've been assuming I have.
edit: And I did answer it, just not in a very direct fashion - I apologize for that. The fact that I disagreed with the conclusion and said that there was no basis in the rules for it should have indicated that I disagreed with the premise as well... but it wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?
The unit is denied to use it
Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.
Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

Thank you for asking instead of assuming.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

You keep bringing up the bolded point even after being told - repeatedly - that it's irrelevant.
WRT the italics - What are you denied permission to do when coming in from Reserves? Hint - it's the reason this thread exists and it's on page 125.

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

 DarthOvious wrote:
All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn.

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn.

And what allows you to make that choice? Is it the unit using wargear?
By the wording for it, no you are, all it is saying is when it is used and who it targets.

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Because the unit is doing something that allows you that choice.
The unit itself is not doing anything, the wargear is just asking "hey i have to give a rule to this guy what do you(the player) want

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

They're two totally incomparable things. It's wargear the *unit* posesses. That wargear, when used, allows you to make a choice.
wargear is not denied by PG. 125.

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

... and? Relevancy please?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

JinxDragon wrote:
DathOvious,

1) Unless the rules involve tell you otherwise, of course. Now most of the rules that deal with 'model level' events are worded it will usually give you either direct permission to evoke the rule at the model level, or provide a trigger event that is something that happens at the model stage. However, if I had a rule preventing me from moving a unit that turn I could not argue that moving the models individually allows me to ignore that unit wide limitation.

2) The others pointing out why you can not use this FAQ are correct: It is too precise, addressing a single character in a single codex. As codex's already have permission to be exception to the standard rules, and specific rules even more so, we can not use this as evidence of intent. It is impossible for us to tell if the writer intended it to be a 'this character only exception' or of they did intend for it to re-write the entire rule-set for all. If this was within the basic rule book FAQ it would have a lot more grounds to be considered a more 'general interpenetration' that would allow it to be applied to all.

However, I personally find it quite interesting that this particular ability was FAQ'ed away from page 125 because it seemed a prime case file for page 125! The fact they have used two terminologies bother me, it is a sign that they need better editors as this occurs quite a few times throughout the rule books. Then they go ahead and deny the rule being applied to the one terminology that matches... makes it hard for me to know what to think.

3) I do see you issue with the wording because it is a little vague. It does not state whom is making the choice, opening the interpretation that it could very well be an outside source that 'uses' the ability and not the model in question. Seeing as that outside source would not be arriving from reserves it wouldn't be bound by the limitations on page 125. I do not know if I can accept this argument, it does not state the player makes the choice and everything else directly relates to the model. Even the very sentence granting permission does state the word 'bearer' without clarifying whom makes the choice.

4) Unless stated elsewise is clearly that; the rule would have to state that it has permission to ignore page 125. For example: A special ability stating that a unit can charge on the turn they come in from reserve would directly over-turn page 125's limitation on charging. A special ability, used at the start of the turn, that states it is evoked when the model comes in from reserves would also overturn page 125.

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn.

And what allows you to make that choice? Is it the unit using wargear?

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Because the unit is doing something that allows you that choice.

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

They're two totally incomparable things. It's wargear the *unit* posesses. That wargear, when used, allows you to make a choice.

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

... and? Relevancy please?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase. I move everything on from reserves, at that point the buff commander can choose an ability at the start of its movement, and move on the board. It is quite simple that the unit will benefit from tank hunter or the like on the turn it arrives from reserves SINCE IT COMES AFTER THE START OF THE TURN. ie blessings and maledictions and reserve rolls...

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

No one going to answer this?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

No one going to answer this?

Sorry, i assumed you would have just looked it up by now. It's a very simple one to find.
Page 9 "The Turn"
This lays out all the phases in a turn. You'll note that there is nothing before the movement phase.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

Reserves happen at the beginning of the turn.
Blessings happen at the beginning of the movement phase.

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This FAQ reinforces that those two terms are interchangeable.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Rapture wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

I can't agree with this. This is a set of rules where words and phrases are given meaning so That they can later be referenced - something must be defined as equivalent for it to be equivalent. Just because X always happens at Y doesn't mean that Y = X.

There is currently nothing between the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase, but there could be. Consider if the PEN rules called for a choice 'after the beginning of the turn but before the beginning of the movement phase.' That space exists because the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are never defined as one piece of the timeline that makes up the turn. Currently, there is nothing between the two, but that doesn,'t mean that we can destroy the potential for that space to be filled.

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?

The difference between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase if you're agreeing they are simultaneous.
The PEC must be used at the same time that you're forbidden from using abilities.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

Reserves happen at the beginning of the turn.
Blessings happen at the beginning of the movement phase.

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This FAQ reinforces that those two terms are interchangeable.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?

The difference between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase if you're agreeing they are simultaneous.
The PEC must be used at the same time that you're forbidden from using abilities.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Apparently we're not using FAQs because the writers of those FAQs are stupid according to some people because they FAQ'd Logans start of turn rule to work while deepstriking and then assume its because it must be a rule change rather than a clarification that a player picking a rule at the start of the turn isn't a unit doing anything.

Also just because they happen at the same time then that does not mean they are the same thing. Activity A and Activity B occurring at the same time does not mean that activity A = Activity B. So when a rule says start of turn, that does not necessarily equate to start of movement phase. Its very common that when you arrange events in plans that they start at the same time. A sub-section of that plan may also start at the same time as the plan starts but that doesn't mean that the first task of that sub-level is referrenced the same level as the first tier of the plan.

It doesn't matter. The reference to turn or movement changes it. It would be the same way in a plan. If my boss was to ask me what was happening at the start of sub-section B, then just because sub-section B starts at the same time as the plan then that doesn't mean he is referencing the start of plan. He is still referencing the start of sub-section B.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
well i need to get some sleep so in the event your talking about my question it goes along with raptures coment

x happens
y happens at the same time

Nothing specifically states X=Y.
That is just an assumption everyone is making. And from what i have gotten from you it is bad to make assumptions in this thread.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you never did answer the question.
"Which goes back to my question,if you would be so kind as to answer.
You are at the bank getting money. = x
While you are getting your money the bank gets robbed. = y

Did you rob the bank?
Or is it just happening at the same time"

im guessing you missed the post. so as i stated before it is wording. One does not fufuile the same paramaters as the other. TURN and Movement being the key words.