Hey mates, recently I played a game today against a IG player with the Steel Legion I currently have (planning on selling them fyi do to medical bills ), when a Tau player came into the store looking for a game. Now seeing us just finishing, he imminently asked if once of us wanted to play and the IG player agreed to it, but things changed dramatically when the Tau player pulled out 2x Riptides. and a bunch of Broadsides with pathfinders with the usually markerlight spam. Now Im not sure if this is the new norm for Tau, but the IG player imminently lost interest in playing, which got the Tau player upset and he began ranting on how he can never get any games anymore with his Tau as too many people believe that they are too strong in this edition as favors them to much thanks to GW making it a shooting game. Now granted, I don't think the IG player shouldn't have agreed to it and then back out but at the same time I can't blame the guy as the two consistent Tau players at my store run super competitive lists w/Riptides and such and they too are struggling to get games in. Now this is just at my store, but from talking to a friend in WA, he even stated that the Tau players at his store bring other armies as no one wants to fight the Tau right now, because in his opinion they are too strong right now and need a nerf to balance them out, as though they suck in CC, GW's changes to the Assault rules made it even harder for people to do that. Persnaly, I just feel they need to real in the Marker-Light spam to the point where its not so powerful, but besides that I don't have an issue with them. Anyone else notice this going on or is it just in my area? I know Tau are one of the top armies in the game now and even I don't relish fighting them as they get a lot of firepower for dirt cheap, but I would still.
I'm always up to play against Tau no matter the list.... Just as long as the person playing them isn't a ****Bag... And by that I mean a bad sport. I enjoy playing against challenging army lists as they challenge me to learn new tactics.
I like playing tough list for the same reason, I enjoy the tactical challenge and finding ways to overcome the tough opposition. Now do I think Tau are very strong in this edition? Yes, and I will be honest I do have the least fun playing them as sitting back and blasting with x2-x5 Riptides is annoying, but I still will play them. Oh and use spellcheck!
Play Daemons and run that stupid deathstart with the 2++ rerollable and make sure there's LOS blocking terrain on the board.
Make sure that the Tau player has to move to shoot and you'll see how much better Daemons can be once you LOS blocking terrain. 40k balances out better with more terrain on the board.
I played in a tournament last week using daemons (Khorne with 20 flesh hounds + grimoire) and faced Tau in all 3 rounds. I won the first 2 games and lost the third to a list with 4 Riptides. I can understand people wanting a break from Tau.
I honestly think the problem stems more from riptides being seen as waac, much like how vendettas were seen that way in early 6e
EDIT: Point being people are getting too worked up from the hype online to play a game with someone, which imo would suck considering at least for me I can only play once every 2 weeks if I am lucky
When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.
When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....
When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.
No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.
When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.
When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....
When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.
No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.
Take an exalt. This is why I've lost interest in 40k.
madtankbloke wrote:I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau
When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.
When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....
When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.
No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.
I completely agree with you. This is why I play Warmachine/Hordes now. I enjoy 40k's fluff, but why can't people seem to wrap their heads about how the game is? lol
madtankbloke wrote:I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau
When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.
When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....
When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.
No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.
I completely agree with you. This is why I play Warmachine/Hordes now. I enjoy 40k's fluff, but why can't people seem to wrap their heads about how the game is? lol
Yup I agree. Every army seems to have something that will annoy someone!
Don't have a problem playing Tau here, there are the 'meta crew' that runs whatever is hot in tourneys so naturally there's the Eldar-Tau and Tau-Tau. It's annoying sometimes but I like the challenge, feels good to beat a Triple Riptide with a Foot-Guard list.
Before a game, you should always make it clear to your opponent if you :
1) want a fun game : you don't bring more than 1 OP unit (Riptide) and try to use unusual units
2) want a semi-competitive game : you bring several OP units or combos.
3) want a no-limit game : you bring all the cheese that you can
If things are clear before the game, nothing can go wrong. If someone agrees to play a no-limit game, he can't blame anyone if things go bad.
All games are fun games. The whole concept of "competitive 40k" and house-ruling away some things you don't like is pathetic and pointless.
Now, I'm not saying that as a riptide-spamming Vendetta-fielding bitch. I'm saying that as a Sisters player who often comes up against so-called 'broken' lists and normally manages at the very least a draw.
Setting ground rules for games that revolve around what list I can use because you don't want to fight a nasty unit? Yeah. No. Want a specific house-rule? Yeah, you should go to a tourney or play with your friends, I'm not tailoring my list so you can feel better about losing.
Furyou Miko wrote: That's ridiculous, Nym. All games are fun games. The whole concept of "competitive 40k" and house-ruling away some things you don't like is pathetic and pointless.
Three days ago I played a pick-up game against a 4 Land Raiders list with my Orks. The only model in my army that could scratch their paint off was my Biker Boss. In the end, the game was a real borefest and I only played it until the end out of respect for my opponent. I didn't have any fun, so I guess your silly assertion "all games are fun games" is pretty much moot.
This game isn't balanced. It has never been balanced. To have fun, both players need to agree on a "cheese" level before the game, otherwise the battle will be one-sided and boring.
PS : there has been quite a lot of "house-ruling is crap" on Dakka lately, and it needs to stop. Whatever you guys will say on the internet won't change the fact that some people use house-rules. You have no power on that, so stop polluting the boards.
Furyou Miko wrote: So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?
It's always the other guy's fault.
I don't wanna up my game, I don't wanna buy the models for an army that can actually deal with an opponent, but I demand the other guy plays down to my level and that he buys new, crappier units so I can win.
And then, for good measure, I make sure to call him the WAAC guy. Not me! Noooooo! Telling other people how to play their armies to improve my own chances at winning is not WAAC at all!
Furyou Miko wrote: So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?
Where the hell did I say it was cheesy ?! I said I had no fun. But before the game, my opponent told me it was going to be rough, and I agreed. That's how we proceed here, and it works well. That's doesn't mean *all games* end up being fun, but at least it helps.
Why are you guys berating an Ork player? Do you realize how old his codex is?
LR spam (not three, FOUR. fething FOUR LAND RAIDERS) is not even a "specialist" army. It's a RPS army that's specifically designed to hammer current TAC lists which plan for AV12 and rear AV10 as commonly found in Tau/Eldar lists. It's a "I'm going to lose if they bring ANY melta, but nobody brings melta anyway, so feth yeah" army.
If that 4 LR guy came in here complaining how he keeps losing, you would probably berate him for his army building choices too. Such hypocrisy.
I would be being a hypocrite if I started complaining that X or Y list was cheesy because it included too many of unit Z.
I'm not. I'm pointing out that not fielding sufficient weapons to take down land raiders is a weakness in your list building, not a statement about how cheesy it is to take four land raiders.
Furyou Miko wrote: So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?
It's always the other guy's fault.
I don't wanna up my game, I don't wanna buy the models for an army that can actually deal with an opponent, but I demand the other guy plays down to my level and that he buys new, crappier units so I can win.
And then, for good measure, I make sure to call him the WAAC guy. Not me! Noooooo! Telling other people how to play their armies to improve my own chances at winning is not WAAC at all!
We have had a lot of discussions about this in our club recently - I actually think its a good idea to chat about what sor tof game you want to play - some people only enjoy highly competative games, some people only enjoy loose, fluffy games/scenarios - most people are somewhere in the middle.
No one should have to "up their game " if they don't want to - in the same way no one should have to play with "weak" units if they don;t want to. However there is a case for agreeing what you are going to play in advance - the same was as tournament set artifical limits and ignore some elements of the actual rules for that envrion. Otherwise people eventually just walk away and do something else.................
In all honesty 40k is in deep imbalance, it is too deep in imbalance that for me it makes the game un-fun to play.
Yeah the IG player should not have agreed to play that game if he was going to turn his back as soon as he saw the Riptides, but on the other side the Tau player should have thought why people don't want to play him, if this is repeated against him imo.
What irritates me slightly on this thread as I have seen at times with other threads is the usual competitive crowd barging in ranting on how they shouldn't have to change their own lists and how they don't want to buy mediocre units, whilst also implying heavily that their opponent has to play at their level in order to compete with them, so wait let me get this straight, in order to combat Tau Riptides all over the place as CSM I have to buy a bunch of "Competitive" units that I don't want to buy, such as Helldrakes, Oblits, Typhus and a shed load of Zombies or add Tzeench CD allies with more DP, Grimore on someone, screamers and Fateweaver... stuff I don't really want to use just so YOU want an evenly balanced game? Sorry but if your not going to pay for mediocre units against me I 'aint buying the competitive units you want me to use. Again no one says this but in thread's like these its always heavily implied.
This is why I agree with Nym's 3 choices, the only thing I disagree with is using one somewhat "OP" unit but because of the heaps of amounts of grey area and deep imbalance of the codex's with the rules, you should say before you begin your game with your opponent if you just there for a game, a few drinks and a laugh or if you want to have a competitive game, Which is a shame since a good ruleset would allow both types of players to have a game and both people would have fun, but all this is in my opinion (awaiting tons of soap and bashing from everybody else, as I would assume for putting my opinion on the internet as apparently my opinion would be "wrong").
Also to note: I don't hold it against my opponent when having a game with what he or she brings if I accept the game, then I play that game... even if it means the game drags for myself..
Just my two and a half cents on the subject: Any game where spamming a unit (like Riptides) is so common, especially to the extent where the competitive lists are effectively 'well I can fir X of these unit so I will take X and then fill out the rest of the list', the problem is not with the players but the game itself.
I won't blame players for taking legal lists that are overly nasty, and I'll play them just like anyone else, but playing those people is exactly what ruined the game for me.
The primary reason to play 40k is for fun, if the IG player knew he wasn't going to have fun he was right to back out of the game. As others have mentioned this game is very poorly balanced, and composition decisions can even further throw the balance off. I enjoy a challenge, if you have watched my battle reports you know I like the close games much better than the blow outs. Somethings to think about as both players in this scenario.
Is it appropriate to bring a killer list to a pick up game without warning your opponent prior to deployment?
Should you feel obligated to just setup your models so your opponent can use them as an ego pump/shooting gallery?
I think most problems in this game can be solved with pre-game communication. You don't necessarily have to tell your opponent exactly what you are playing but there is nothing wrong with saying I am playing a suit spam list with a couple riptides, or I have several flyers in my army, so they can at least prepare to make it a challenge.
jonolikespie wrote: Just my two and a half cents on the subject:
Any game where spamming a unit (like Riptides) is so common, especially to the extent where the competitive lists are effectively 'well I can fir X of these unit so I will take X and then fill out the rest of the list', the problem is not with the players but the game itself.
I won't blame players for taking legal lists that are overly nasty, and I'll play them just like anyone else, but playing those people is exactly what ruined the game for me.
Not really. I'd rather have a game that gives more options, possibly even broken options, and trust in the maturity of players who (for the most part) know that not all available options are appropriate at all times and that a minimum of civilized pre-game communication can easily ensure a fun game for both sides, than a game that is too restrictive to do anything whacky.
It's the same with the ever-recurring Forge World-legality discussion. Just because an option exists, doesn't mean it's appropriate to make use of it at all times and in all circumstances. If in (even the slightest) doubt that it might diminish the overall fun of the experience, try opening your mouth to talk about it before feelings (or egos) get hurt.
Not to mention that there are always different options to go about it. Said Tau Player above could've, to name just one idea, entered to store saying "I want to test my really hard competitive Tau list for a tourny next week. I realize the armies you guys have with you might not be tournament optimized. Would you still allow me to test my mean-tournament-machine against you if I'd use 10% less points than you do?". Or something of that kind.
Nym had a response to a land raider. It was only one (because realistically, a balanced space marine army is only going to have one, maybe two land raiders) but he had a response to it on his HQ choice. Most lists, especially in the current 'meta' are this way in my experience. You have one to three units that can deal with high A.V. reliably.
Nym made a statement that games of 40k can be less fun for one side or the other if the match is a fore-gone conclusion before the first dice is even rolled. Doesn't mean the match can't be played and both sides at least partially enjoy the match on some level. That's not a deficiency in his list building, or the prowess of an opponents list building, but a fact of life.
If you want to ensure both sides enjoy the game a bit more, putting additional restrictions on the list building over and above agreed upon point total, or having a gentleman's agreement before the match to try and stick to a theme, or limit the number of specific units or models fielded for variety's sake is perfectly reasonable, and acceptable. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. Not every dice dropped while playing Warhammer 40,000 needs to be done so with the mindset of a hardcore tournament style match.
I would advise, Furyou Miko, that you not put words in another poster's mouth.
Nym never once uttered one word of complaint. He made a statement of fact based on his own experiences. That game wasn't fun to him. He didn't say it was cheesy, or that his opponent somehow tricked him. He went into the game knowing it was stacked against him and made the best of it. Doesn't mean the other player couldn't have opted to bring a different list when he saw what Nym was playing does it? It's called being conscientious.
That's all I've got to say on the matter. Take it for what you like.
Nym had a response to a land raider. It was only one (because realistically, a balanced space marine army is only going to have one, maybe two land raiders) but he had a response to it on his HQ choice. Most lists, especially in the current 'meta' are this way in my experience. You have one to three units that can deal with high A.V. reliably.
Nym made a statement that games of 40k can be less fun for one side or the other if the match is a fore-gone conclusion before the first dice is even rolled. Doesn't mean the match can't be played and both sides at least partially enjoy the match on some level. That's not a deficiency in his list building, or the prowess of an opponents list building, but a fact of life.
If you want to ensure both sides enjoy the game a bit more, putting additional restrictions on the list building over and above agreed upon point total, or having a gentleman's agreement before the match to try and stick to a theme, or limit the number of specific units or models fielded for variety's sake is perfectly reasonable, and acceptable. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. Not every dice dropped while playing Warhammer 40,000 needs to be done so with the mindset of a hardcore tournament style match.
I would advise, Furyou Miko, that you not put words in another poster's mouth.
Nym never once uttered one word of complaint. He made a statement of fact based on his own experiences. That game wasn't fun to him. He didn't say it was cheesy, or that his opponent somehow tricked him. He went into the game knowing it was stacked against him and made the best of it. Doesn't mean the other player couldn't have opted to bring a different list when he saw what Nym was playing does it? It's called being conscientious.
That's all I've got to say on the matter. Take it for what you like.
-Red__Thirst-
thread seems to have been highjacked a bit. As for the 1-3 options to deal with Av14, I disagree. I go by the motto that if it can reasonably hurt AV14, then it has a much better chance to take out AV13 which is where I want to be. My gaming group has been bringing the AV13 Blood Angel wall out of mothballs. Baal Predators, Vindicators, and standard Preds. My particular bane is Annihilation Barges, most people don't give those things the credit they deserve.
As a Tau player I am seeing some of this anti Tau angst which is why I am glad the new Space Marine codex has been kind to Imperial Fists. I don't even field the standard 2-3 Riptides with markerlights everywhere. In my last 2 games I ran an O'vesa-Farsight star that was close to 1000 points and could go toe to toe with most CC units in the game, it could shoot the ever loving crap out of you but it has Farsight, O'Vesa and a Lightsaber wielding Enclave Commander who could take down tyranid MCs and to top it all off it could jsj and was scoring. It wasn't what most people would consider a tournament winner although I am thinking of taking this to a tournament.
I think the biggest problem with Tau is dice manipulation. After a thoroughly dissapointing game of Axis and Allies: D-Day I remarked to my cousin that if my life came down to a single roll of a 6 sided die with a 50-50 chance of living or dying, I would die every single time. People remark about their luck with dice well I have the absolute worst luck when rolling dice. To hit, to wound, to go first, the deployment map and mission and my personal favorite, the random game length. If I need another turn to win the game, it ends at the end of 5, if my opponent needs and extra turn he gets it.
You might think I am overreacting and being pessimistic, but its true. At a 3 round tournament I will be competitive in 2 rounds and then in the third every roll will go against me, maybe I slighted someone I shouldn't have in a past life I dunnno, but back to dice manipulation...
Whether it is through markerlights or the Multi spectrum Suite and Command and Control Node, Tau get so many rerolls and so much ignores cover its really unfair. When I roll that deathstar I mention above people just shake their head and say whatever. There is no hiding from it and with jsj it will catch you. I remember when O'Vesa just stepped on a Space Marine Chapter Master and he failed his save, my opponent couldn't believe it, he lost in a challenge with a TH/SS to Tau of all armies.
Its not the Riptides, without markerlight support or a support commander a Riptide is really no better than an Imp Guard battle cannon, that is very difficult to take down. Outside of force weapons or a D cannon there is no good way to kill a Riptide. The problem with O'Vesa is that you just LOS those types of wounds onto drones or if need be another crisis suit.
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Makumba wrote: There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time
Sure there is you take a couple very underrated tanks, the executioner.
When I was in my LGS last week there were 3 40k tables and all three had Tau on them (me who played some unconventional tyranids a friend brings out, somebody else I can't remember but I think Space Marines were involved, and someone who got annihilated by Eldar with lots of nightspinners ) so I have to answer "no" to this one.
Although to be honest I played Tau since the original codex and muddled through 5th edition the best I could, also I've fielded Vespid and thought they did well for me. Seeing so many "new kids on the block" is kind of annoying...*grumble grumble grumble bittervet*
I guess I'd describe my playstyle as "the best list I can field with the models I have". 40k is a game, I'm not buying 3 riptides, that's a lot of cash I bought one because it looks cool and I like having a big impressive centerpiece to display my army around. You all can say what you'd like on that subject, but I mostly play 40k with my friends for fun anyway.
Makumba wrote: There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time
Seriously?
My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.
Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.
Furyou Miko wrote: Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.
A Vendetta will only deal 1.25 wounds / turn to a Riptide. That's if the Riptide doesn't use its Nova reactor to upgrade it's invulnerable save to 3++...
Furyou Miko wrote: So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?
It's always the other guy's fault.
I don't wanna up my game, I don't wanna buy the models for an army that can actually deal with an opponent, but I demand the other guy plays down to my level and that he buys new, crappier units so I can win.
And then, for good measure, I make sure to call him the WAAC guy. Not me! Noooooo! Telling other people how to play their armies to improve my own chances at winning is not WAAC at all!
Bingo.
Look over at the "why do people not like playing against unpainted models thread". Its amazing the level of laziness and unwillingness that some people have. Its this defense mechanism people have developed over the years, "If you don't like it, quit" "I can do whatever I want with my hobby" etc etc. Its the anthem of an entitled generation to expect everyone to accept their lazy gak attitudes and bad behaviour as either some sort of life choice or disease.
The warhammer community is packed with Goobs, the guys that never learn, don't want to learn, and are incredibly vocal when it comes to you telling them to up their game.
Just a nit pick but I find it really annoying when people talk about "marker light spam" like it's something new. The effectiveness of a Tau army has always been based around marker lights, it's how they're designed to work, it's what makes them different and everyone and their mum can kill Pathfinders with their new, lower, save.
/rant
Sorry, but I slogged all the way through 5th edition with Tau, because I loved the design and the army philosophy, even though they sucked hard and it annoys me that a lot of people seem to think they don't deserve to be good.
And I concede that they are open to shenanigans, but so are a lot of other armies #glares at his friends three Vendettas#. What we are talking about here is sportsmanship (or lack thereof) not the inevitable imbalances between the various armies.
Jadenim wrote: Just a nit pick but I find it really annoying when people talk about "marker light spam" like it's something new. The effectiveness of a Tau army has always been based around marker lights, it's how they're designed to work, it's what makes them different and everyone and their mum can kill Pathfinders with their new, lower, save.
/rant
Sorry, but I slogged all the way through 5th edition with Tau, because I loved the design and the army philosophy, even though they sucked hard and it annoys me that a lot of people seem to think they don't deserve to be good.
See this is what I don't understand with people. Pathfinders are t3 5+ save models. If they give you a hard time heres a brainwave, kill them first. Its not like they are immune to wounds. Its the first thing I do against tau, kill his marker lights and his army is much more manageable.
Even marker drones aren't hard to deal with (short of the utility 2+ save commander tanking the wounds).
In my LGS I've found out which players want to play competitively and which players simply want to roll dice and move models (Not saying that's bad, but their definition of fun is different to mine). I will usually only try to game with the people who want to play competitive like me, but even we are only semi-competitive. When your income is pocket money, there is simply no way to keep up with the current trend above a unit a month. Every so often a 'real' competitive player comes in and we always try to get a game, because even though chances are we will lose, its my definition of fun. That's how it should be, people should play with people they know they will have their version of fun with, and no one should play a game they wont enjoy.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: In my LGS I've found out which players want to play competitively and which players simply want to play casually (Not saying that's bad, but their definition of fun is different to mine). I will usually only try to game with the people who want to play competitive like me, but even we are only semi-competitive. When your income is pocket money, there is simply no way to keep up with the current trend above a unit a month. Every so often a 'real' competitive player comes in and we always try to get a game, because even though chances are we will lose, its my definition of fun. That's how it should be, people should play with people they know they will have their version of fun with, and no one should play a game they wont enjoy.
Nope, sorry but I had to correct you, as it showed way too much bias in your reply, after all at the end of the day both types of players move plastic soldiers and roll dice.
On topic: I don't hold it against my opponent what they bring (yeah I may have my little nags here and there but, I wont be berating them and hurling insults there way) if I accept a game then I play that game..
Any fluff army versus a tuned army is going to get crushed generally. Every codex on the other hand has the means to put together a solid and balanced army, which in turn will either win or lose based on rock, paper, scissors, good or bad dice rolling, deployment, table type, mission type.
If your army list isn't built with the means to handle flyers, monstrous creatures, blob squads, av 14, or any of the other various codex rules that might arise, I'm not sure how that's the other players issue.
I've seen at least 5 different variations of a nicely built Tau army play, none of them are undefeated, and nobody ever turns down a game with any of the players.
So, anchorbine... my Elysian Drop Troops fluff army is going to get crushed every time, with its two Vendettas, three punisher Vultures, two Avenger Strike Fighters and four Valkyries?
My Order of the Bloody Rose esque Sisters army with two squads of outflanking melta-dominions is going to get crushed generally by a 'tuned' army?
I can understand someones frustration. Now, I play IG, and I hear, "they have so much shooting, long range". However, since the new tau codex, havn't heard that as much.
I don't mind playing against a certain army, however, there is a guy at the FLGS, where I go, who always has the newest OP army list out there. Grey knights Paladin/henchmen list, Necron flying circus, I'm sure he has new SM grav gun spam list with a ton of bikes. It is just what he does, and in any game system. I don't mind playing against certain armies, just certain players.
I don't like it in a tournament where I play the same army, if not the same build, round after round. Has happened, when dark angels were new, had to go two rounds then, fought against Nids in the final. It is boring and, well, just boring to play the same army time and time again.
I went on an undefeated string with my Orks back in 5th edition that was probably around 30 games long. I had my share of draws, but no outright losses. So I understand competitive play and I'm down with it.
That being said, I never net-listed, and I avoided things that most people wouldn't want to face (I didn't run biker nobz or lootas at all).
The fact of the matter is that unless you are in a tournament setting, some players will not want to play against ultra-competitive forces, and sometimes you won't get games. You can moan about other players moaning about your army, but that's just how it works. Most people play semi-competitively, and won't field three vendettas, or three heldrakes, or three riptides, or three land raiders. Those people don't want to play against people who do. They're entitled to screen their opponents.
To those of you crying about players who refuse to play your WAAC list, consider applying your logic to any other voluntary social setting. It's directly analogous to being upset because someone won't go on a date with you, or won't include you in their group of friends. Maybe they just don't like you.
I think the game is more fun if players do not just spam the most powerful units over and over. Varied lists with mix of different types of units produce more interesting games. And if both people play like that, it is not a problem. The Tau player can bring some stealth suits instead of just spamming Riptides and IG player can bring some sentinels instead of three Vendettas. And this doesn't even mean that the game itself cannot be competitive and hard fought, merely that it is won or lost at the table, instead of the list building phase. But as always, the important thing is to talk with the people you play with, and agree on what sort of game you want to play.
Makumba wrote: There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time
Seriously?
My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.
Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.
3-4 of them including possible interceptor/skyfire on missides ? I have seen marine drop pod armies get mauled on turn 1 and they know that they can get 3-4 pods turn one , I can never be sure to see 3 vendetta on turn 2.
The Tau player can bring some stealth suits instead of just spamming Riptides and IG player can bring some sentinels instead of three Vendettas
But both of those are bad units. why take stealth suits when you can self all crissis and have them as troops and for IG taking sentinals means you give up free first blood to any army with shoting in 6th , which more or less is every army .giving up first blood and then losing because you don't have enough valks to get through the opposing armies AA seems a stupid thing to do . It as if your opponent wanted you to play a bad army , so he can win easier . Because to shot down a single vendetta one unit of sides and a riptide are enough , but to make vendettas effective you need 2+.
Seems like the problems lies with GW and making so many imbalances in the book to where these power gamers can make the most insane lists and suck all of the fun out of a game when they do it, and to be fair, this TAU player has a a server arrogance problem and honestly, I feel like that's all he has going for him as he is a manager a a grocery store of all things and he tries to talk big to me, but Im an Army Vet who was medically discharged so he is fully entitled to keep on trying that because he is the only one who thinks he is so amazing lol. Besides that, I can understand the issues that resolve around this edition and its a big reason why I am getting bored with 40k, as its all about shooting and Tau at the moment stand out because they are one of the strongest shooting armies, as do a few others. It's a shame but its has gotten pretty dull for me right now.
As for the marker-light spam, the reason I feel it is ridiculous at times is not the amount they can get, but the fact that they can use it for over-watch and skyfire as well, which many times I have seen it make assaulting armies (like BA and Orks) not even get close to them, which is too good in my opinion. Oh and the Tau also apparently can get free shots at infiltrators and Deep-Striking units when the come in (didn't even know about that) so basically they have all there bases covered. Reason I think so many people don't like playing Tau is the fact that not only are they an easy army to play, but that they just have so much firepower and rules to make them hit you easier just makes it frustrating for many people to play against, plus this players attitude doesn't help him much as he only wants to play Apocalypse with his list of 9x riptides and numerous pathfinder squads, and broadside teams. Made the mistake of playing him when I was roped into playing a game with him and now I don't even want to go against that again, as it was no fun for the imperial side and he was all frustrated that no one had any fun except him and his partner. There is a reason my friend.
Kilkrazy wrote:
If Tau players are finding it hard to get games when they bring four Riptides, they might like to consider bringing fewer.
This is really the core of the issue.
40K is a game, and both sides want to have fun. There's no obligation for anybody to play against anyone else.
If you show up with an army nobody wants to play against, don't be shocked when nobody wants to play against you. Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should. Tournament play is one thing, but even the most bored of people have other stuff to do than play your Tau+Tau Riptide spam, lol.
But both of those are bad units. why take stealth suits when you can self all crissis and have them as troops and for IG taking sentinals means you give up free first blood to any army with shoting in 6th , which more or less is every army .giving up first blood and then losing because you don't have enough valks to get through the opposing armies AA seems a stupid thing to do . It as if your opponent wanted you to play a bad army , so he can win easier . Because to shot down a single vendetta one unit of sides and a riptide are enough , but to make vendettas effective you need 2+.
You don't get it. I know they're bad units; everyone does. Just like everyone knows Riptides are good. Stealth suits look really nice and Sentinels are cool; yes there are much better units, but if both players bring some not-so-optimal units, it's okay, and you get more varied games.
And I really hate this idea that only way to play competitively is to bring some spammy no-brainer net-list, and if you don't, you're either a moron or a casual player that doesn't take the game seriously. Spamming most OP unit takes no skill, every idiot can do that, knowing how to use your units well (whether they were optimal or not) is what takes some skill. It is perfectly possible to show some restraint at the list building stage, and still play competitively.
But both of those are bad units. why take stealth suits when you can self all crissis and have them as troops and for IG taking sentinals means you give up free first blood to any army with shoting in 6th , which more or less is every army .giving up first blood and then losing because you don't have enough valks to get through the opposing armies AA seems a stupid thing to do . It as if your opponent wanted you to play a bad army , so he can win easier . Because to shot down a single vendetta one unit of sides and a riptide are enough , but to make vendettas effective you need 2+.
You don't get it. I know they're bad units; everyone does. Just like everyone knows Riptides are good. Stealth suits look really nice and Sentinels are cool; yes there are much better units, but if both players bring some not-so-optimal units, it's okay, and you get more varied games.
And I really hate this idea that only way to play competitively is to bring some spammy no-brainer net-list, and if you don't, you're either a moron or a casual player that doesn't take the game seriously. Spamming most OP unit takes no skill, every idiot can do that, knowing how to use your units well (whether they were optimal or not) is what takes some skill. It is perfectly possible to show some restraint at the list building stage, and still play competitively.
QFT Crimson, you have said everything I try to say about the whole issue in a better way
I am leaving my current place because no one wants to play me anymore. Everyone says "I know Im going to loose to you rgiht away" And it gets ANNOYING really. I even stopped taking my good lists.
You don't get it. I know they're bad units; everyone does. Just like everyone knows Riptides are good. Stealth suits look really nice and Sentinels are cool; yes there are much better units, but if both players bring some not-so-optimal units, it's okay, and you get more varied games.
And I really hate this idea that only way to play competitively is to bring some spammy no-brainer net-list, and if you don't, you're either a moron or a casual player that doesn't take the game seriously. Spamming most OP unit takes no skill, every idiot can do that, knowing how to use your units well (whether they were optimal or not) is what takes some skill. It is perfectly possible to show some restraint at the list building stage, and still play competitively.
Now If a w40k army was like a candy bar , then maybe people could play it like that . Do I want to check how fruits and almonds taste , even when I hate the taste of almonds? well it is less then an euro so why not . But when we are talking about something that costs 100or 1000 times more one can't base oneselfs idea of having fun , be it casual or not , on other people buying crapy stuff and playing wih it . The disposable income for them would have to be huge .
If I take lets say one riptide , one vendetta or one of anything , it won't be just a bit less effective . It is going to be dead . My opponent can take a single riptide , not optimal but let us say he does . One units of broadsides, there are no tau lists without 1 of those and an aegis , I willhave to be very lucky for my 2 vendetta to survive entering the table . What fun will I get out of sentinals , every army even if it takes crappy units will kill them with range and gain first blood . keeping them hidden or at the back makes no sense , because then I have arm them with las and make them cost more and still hope my opponent doesn't have something fast or long range which can't blow them up .If I take them am playing with a points handicap . You don't see Bolt runing around with a ball and chain , because he is better then others and him dominating doesn't make his wins less awesome or less fun to watch.
You don't get it. I know they're bad units; everyone does. Just like everyone knows Riptides are good. Stealth suits look really nice and Sentinels are cool; yes there are much better units, but if both players bring some not-so-optimal units, it's okay, and you get more varied games.
And I really hate this idea that only way to play competitively is to bring some spammy no-brainer net-list, and if you don't, you're either a moron or a casual player that doesn't take the game seriously. Spamming most OP unit takes no skill, every idiot can do that, knowing how to use your units well (whether they were optimal or not) is what takes some skill. It is perfectly possible to show some restraint at the list building stage, and still play competitively.
one can't base oneselfs idea of having fun , be it casual or not , on other people buying crapy stuff and playing wih it . The disposable income for them would have to be huge .
What you might call a crappy unit, someone else may like, for example I like Hellbrutes and Sentinels, now they are under assumed "Crap" but to me I couldn't give a feth if I want to use them then I will use them because I like what they are. As I have said earlier if your not gonna buy "mediocre" units then why should I have to buy "competitive" units so only you can have fun (and vice versa)?
Understand this: 40k is clogged up in deep imbalance, this is fact. Another fact: most people who play 40k like to play with stuff they want to use instead of buying "Netlist X, Y and Z". Another fact: because of the way the rules are designed 40k is aimed as a casual game they even say 9/10 times that if there is ever a rules disagreement then you 4+ it, and because there is so much "grey area" in the wording of the rules for 40k your going to be using that 4+ a lot unlike different rule sets where it will tell you the correct way of going things.
Yes there are competitive gamers, but if competitive gamers think they can lord it over thinking that "competitive" 40k players are somehow better than us "Casual" players (as seen in multiple threads on Dakka) then in all honesty 40k is not the game for you, and I would even go so far as to say that if people who play "Netlist X, Y and Z" should really just drop 40k and start WM/H why? because that's a game where competitive play is advertised, aimed at and supported buy their fanbase and company.
Of course you shouldn't buy stuff you don't like, but there are other considerations for liking models than how they perform in the game. My friend told me recently that he'll get a box of Sentinels, because he really likes them. He was not talking out their game effectiveness.
My friend is running a very similar list and thats not a suprise as these are some competitive lists. Ive won against him with my nids using outflank and a large blob of hormagaunts but its not easy to do. Im willing to play tau players but playing the same type of list with them gets borring quick as they do hold the advantage.
My biggest grief towards an opponent is if they have abused me with a unit or combo for a few games, and then every time we play afterward, they KEEP taking it, even though they know it makes for a lopsided game, and I have nothing to counter it (and its not like its a core part of his army). It makes for a boring and frustrating experience, and yes, I let him know about it every game.
Honestly, I'd rather deal with riptides any day of the week over the immortal wave serpents.
Anyone who complains about meqs is just not getting it. Bikes aren't undercosted, they are still a whopping 21 pt/W with 3+ save at best. Grav guns can't be spammed for long, because Orks and Tyranids will end that fast.
Ironcially, IG is one the lists that can shoot back at the Tau/Eldar in a meaningful way. Leafblower from 5th ed is still potent. And then there's the Vendetta still.
When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.
When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....
When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.
No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.
I inverse rage, because I know that losing is the expected outcome when using any amount of BA models, lol. The sad part is that I still feel that the BA codex has a fighting shot against the new C:SM book, but none at all against Tau/Eldar/Demons. That's how bad meqs are.
jonolikespie wrote: Just my two and a half cents on the subject:
Any game where spamming a unit (like Riptides) is so common, especially to the extent where the competitive lists are effectively 'well I can fir X of these unit so I will take X and then fill out the rest of the list', the problem is not with the players but the game itself.
I won't blame players for taking legal lists that are overly nasty, and I'll play them just like anyone else, but playing those people is exactly what ruined the game for me.
Not really. I'd rather have a game that gives more options, possibly even broken options, and trust in the maturity of players who (for the most part) know that not all available options are appropriate at all times and that a minimum of civilized pre-game communication can easily ensure a fun game for both sides, than a game that is too restrictive to do anything whacky.
It's the same with the ever-recurring Forge World-legality discussion. Just because an option exists, doesn't mean it's appropriate to make use of it at all times and in all circumstances. If in (even the slightest) doubt that it might diminish the overall fun of the experience, try opening your mouth to talk about it before feelings (or egos) get hurt.
Not to mention that there are always different options to go about it. Said Tau Player above could've, to name just one idea, entered to store saying "I want to test my really hard competitive Tau list for a tourny next week. I realize the armies you guys have with you might not be tournament optimized. Would you still allow me to test my mean-tournament-machine against you if I'd use 10% less points than you do?". Or something of that kind.
more options are better even if they're broken.... lol
trust in the maturity of 40k players.... double lol
......I play Tau with one unit on braodsides and one riptide. Then I play White Scars Grav gun Spam
Ok well what exact units do you put into both army's like for troops and elites? etc, etc?
atm it just sounds like your opponents are just whining..
A couple of crisis suits for tau, with a skyray and hammerhead. And other things like one unit of pathfinders and so forth.
Im still getting a hod of Space Marines.....But typically Khan and a kitted out chapter master. Hell my last game I brought LC termies in a LR and they where pissed about it.
Makumba wrote: There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time
Seriously?
My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.
Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.
i think i read somewhere statistically it takes about 30 plasma gun shots to down a riptide.
Rommel44 wrote:...which got the Tau player upset and he began ranting on how he can never get any games anymore with his Tau as too many people believe that they are too strong in this edition as favors them to much thanks to GW making it a shooting game.
...but from talking to a friend in WA, he even stated that the Tau players at his store bring other armies as no one wants to fight the Tau right now, because in his opinion they are too strong right now and need a nerf to balance them out, as though they suck in CC, GW's changes to the Assault rules made it even harder for people to do that.
Regardless of the power level of tau at the moment, I'd agree that tau are going to have a hard time getting a game in (at our FLGS half the players switched over to tau with the new codex, and within a month, it became only tau players playing other tau players, and when they got sick of that, and no one else would play them, they started not showing up anymore after a couple of months). The key thing that's missing is this:
EmperorsChosen wrote:People need to realise that it isn't always about winning or losing, if you have fun then you have 'won' really.
... which is the problem. Tau aren't fun to play against. Win or lose. It's not about WAAC and powergaming, and game balance, etc. etc. It's about an enjoyable game.
GW took 5th ed 40k and decided that what it needs is to make gunlines much more powerful than they already were relative to other armies when it came out with 6th ed. Lots of people, myself included, loathe playing gunlines, and find playing against them tedious for several good reasons. It's just not a fun game.
So they made 40k less fun with a gunlinier edition, and then they released tau, which exploited all the rules and just flat-out broke a bunch more, which further exposed the problems 40k has right now.
Nobody should feel obligated to play a game they know is going to be boring. If tau make boring games, their players are going to get fewer games in. Behold, a free market, I suppose. I'd also note that this isn't exactly a new phenominon. I'll point you to places on dakka where this has already been discussed like here and here. It seems that reality on the tabletop is merely catching up with the abstract principles.
Makumba wrote: There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time
Seriously?
My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.
Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.
i think i read somewhere statistically it takes about 30 plasma gun shots to down a riptide.
can you back up your statements with some math?
No, because A) I can't be bothered, and B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Makumba wrote: There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time
Seriously?
My standard Guard list has two squads of meltagunners who can deal with that. Admittedly, I play Elysians, so my melta is almost always in range when it arrives, but a standard guard list just replaces melta with plasma.
Heck, most standard "competitive" guard lists will just Vendetta the riptides out of existence.
i think i read somewhere statistically it takes about 30 plasma gun shots to down a riptide.
can you back up your statements with some math?
the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Its all down to what I've brought. I have daemons, and while my particular daemon list isn't top tier they're not bad as a whole - so I'd be willing to face a higher 'class' of lists if I've got my daemons on me.
If I've brought Orks though, honestly, I won't stand a chance against anything half decent and you won't get a game out of me - because it'll be boring as gak for both of us (unless your a d-bag that enjoys stomping gakky lists)
First off, tau need markerlights or a list built around not using them. There is no other list.
Any tau player that has more than 2 riptides is crossing a line IMO.
Beyond that, I see lots of tau players getting games. The only people I don't see getting games are the always tournament mode players at my FLGS. There's 3, and they can't really get pick up games now because no one wants to play their nonsense. For reference, I'm talking about 2 Daemons and 1 Nercon players.
If you're having trouble with tau, remember they hate av 13 and higher since they have trouble killing it at range. Also, just get to melee and stop complaining. In a recent tournament I made it to melee in a long ways deployment vs a tau player with obliterators, and remember since obliterators can't run, that's a long walk.
Furyou Miko wrote: B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?
If you want to get technical...Physics does. And since dice are made with real consistency, the physics for his dice versus your dice will vary. And the surface you roll on will vary. As will how the dice are released, etc. Stats are a simplified way of looking at outcomes, true physics would give you the real odds but they'd be a bear to actually run.
Furyou Miko wrote: B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?
If you want to get technical...Physics does. And since dice are made with real consistency, the physics for his dice versus your dice will vary. And the surface you roll on will vary. As will how the dice are released, etc. Stats are a simplified way of looking at outcomes, true physics would give you the real odds but they'd be a bear to actually run.
is this your cloak and dagger way of saying that you use weighted dice or some other method of cheating? or is it just a pile of nonsense?
......I play Tau with one unit on braodsides and one riptide. Then I play White Scars Grav gun Spam
Ok well what exact units do you put into both army's like for troops and elites? etc, etc?
atm it just sounds like your opponents are just whining..
A couple of crisis suits for tau, with a skyray and hammerhead. And other things like one unit of pathfinders and so forth. Im still getting a hod of Space Marines.....But typically Khan and a kitted out chapter master. Hell my last game I brought LC termies in a LR and they where pissed about it.
Aye well since I've been reading the SM codex as my friend lent me it I cant really see any problems with it... better for me if you used grav-weapons anyway, I use a ton of daemon engines
It just looks like your opponents are just whining, I wouldn't pay too much attention to them in fact I would shove this pic up in their faces every time they do:
Its what I do on Dakka when I see people whining about the Helldrake..
However I would ask what's in your Chapter Master? just interested that's all..
cvtuttle wrote: I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar... .
And BA, and undoubtedly IG, I think what makes people irked is when people play with an "I win" button, I certainly would not enjoy playing against someone who only uses I win armies, but hey I am just a casual player so to some dakkaites I am a heretic and must be burned
cvtuttle wrote: I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...
I remember when this applied to space wolves spamming long fangs and rune priests
I remember when this applied to Paladin spam
I remember when this applied to helldrake spam
I remember when this applied to riptide spam
I remember when this applied to wave serpant spam
See the pattern? You want a fun pick up game, bring a fun pick up list.
Im guessing you mean using the Farsight Enclave? If its a 1750 game or thereabouts i think hes nerfing his army hard enough since all his power is focused in just the rip tides.
Still its a gimmick and its not much fun to play against. If its a tournament then i have no say in what the other person brings and i just gotta play. But for fun Id like to at least have a chance with my poor space bugs.
I dont enjoy playing Tau vs Tau so i don't. I'm basically avoiding playing my tau until its not the flavor of the month anymore. Kind of made me sad to see everyone just flocking to them when they were probably the second least played army for so long.
When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.
When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....
When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.
No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.
I haven't read all the post in this topic but I wanted to respond to this.
I play 7 armies, used to have Tau but just sold them after playing a little while with this new codex. The only army even approaching OP is Tau, even then it is very possible to field a nice balanced Tau army the problem is the lack of LOS blocking terrain at most clubs/tournaments, Riptides which I would argue ARE OP mostly because of their relatively low point cost, and 6th edition shooting rules. These three things make them unfun to play against, unfun for me to play with, and generally bad for the game at large. Now two of those three things aren't even the fault of the codex! The biggest problem with the codex is there is not a single bad choice in it. Not a one. The worst people can come up with is Vespids but they are just fine even if they aren't amazing. My main army is Nids and I know a thing or two about worthless choices when about 2/3s my book is just bad.
We have a Necron player who is a really good friend of mine and I agree, people complain way to much about them. I think RP are annoying, but not unbalancing. In effect it is army wide FNP with different downsides, it is good, it is great, but they pay for it in other ways. Annihilation Barges? Under costed but not in the same realm as Riptides. I've had one take out a flying hive tyrant in one round of shooting due to some lucky rolling on my friends part and my inability to roll a save. That didn't make me think they were OP, they are a very solid unit. The thing in Necrons that sticks out to me as OP is MSS. It is my opinion that anything that rolls 3d6 on leadership with any kind of substantial effect is OP. The average roll for 3d6 is 11 and that beast out ANY LD in the game. That means 50% of the time MSS is going to go off and that to me is way to easy. Again, as a Tyranid player I have to say that the Dooms ability is the same, it is way to easy and causes way to much damage.
I also play C:SM and...okay I will be honest, I don't get this one. The only reason they may appear OP is if your club runs heavy on the meta with a bunch of Riptides and Wraithknights which get destroyed by Gravguns. Don't know what to say.
There is such a thing as OP, OP is not unbeatable, OP is in relation to other things of it's class. Like the Riptide compared to other MC's or other heavy weapon platforms like Leman Russ. It blows the competition out of the water, the only thing that comes close IMHO is a flying hive tyrant, but the tyrant is priced appropriately for what it does.
Furyou Miko wrote: B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that mathematics affects the world. It doesn't. Mathematics describes the world. It does not have any power to change it. And, with probability, mathematics is never going to be a perfect description because there are too many factors that the mathematics doesn't take into account when rolling dice.
Anyway, everybody knows that the dice gods are real.
I'm one of those people that really doesn't play against Tau. I play really fluffy Dark Angels and having to go up against what is quite possibly the least fun army in the game to play against just doesn't excite me at all.
If there is no one else to play against, yeah I'll battle a Tau player, but if I see more than two riptides, I'm not playing you. I have better things to do than get curb stomped.
That is my thoughts for pick up games. I enjoy playing against Tau when it comes to my matched league games because then I just throw as many Deathwing Land Raiders into my list as possible and see how things go.
Part of the problem here is playing pick-up games in shops. If people played with friends at home or at a club, there would be a much better understood social acceptability of what to put in your army.
When any decent new codex is launched a good "spam" list is found and becomes the hot list for several months until people work out good counters or another hot codex comes out.
People will be complaining about something other than Tau in a few months from now.
True dat. And most of the time they hate me. Except my last game, but I think they were teaching my friend a lesson in not playing since the start of 6th.
Furyou Miko wrote: B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that mathematics affects the world. It doesn't. Mathematics describes the world. It does not have any power to change it. And, with probability, mathematics is never going to be a perfect description because there are too many factors that the mathematics doesn't take into account when rolling dice.
Bingo.
Look over at the "why do people not like playing against unpainted models thread". Its amazing the level of laziness and unwillingness that some people have. Its this defense mechanism people have developed over the years, "If you don't like it, quit" "I can do whatever I want with my hobby" etc etc. Its the anthem of an entitled generation to expect everyone to accept their lazy gak attitudes and bad behaviour as either some sort of life choice or disease.
The warhammer community is packed with Goobs, the guys that never learn, don't want to learn, and are incredibly vocal when it comes to you telling them to up their game.
Not trying to hijack the thread but Wow really? So because I have school, a girlfriend, am in the Army, I work and also take care of myself by working out (and to maintain my shape for military service) that's means I am "lazy"? Maybe before calling everyone who does not paint their armies as "lazy bums" take into account that some people have priorities that take precedence over painting models for their hobby, you don't see me calling players like you "stuck up pricks" for refusing and berating players without a painted army.
... which is the problem. Tau aren't fun to play against. Win or lose. It's not about WAAC and powergaming, and game balance, etc. etc. It's about an enjoyable game.
GW took 5th ed 40k and decided that what it needs is to make gunlines much more powerful than they already were relative to other armies when it came out with 6th ed. Lots of people, myself included, loathe playing gunlines, and find playing against them tedious for several good reasons. It's just not a fun game.
So they made 40k less fun with a gunlinier edition, and then they released tau, which exploited all the rules and just flat-out broke a bunch more, which further exposed the problems 40k has right now.
Nobody should feel obligated to play a game they know is going to be boring. If tau make boring games, their players are going to get fewer games in.
Have to agree with this and its the reason that I cannot and will not play or run a gunline army. Now will I refuse to play someone who runs a gunline army? No, but I do agree that it is not very fun to play against and sadly for most Tau players it is THE list to go with as their rules make an already strong list even stronger. Now I do feel that if someone who is looking for a friendly game and ends up being forced to play a "Tri-Tide" Tau or "Necron Flying Circus" list is the fault of the other player, especially if he knows that his list I not optimized to fight something like that.
Just because the person with the tournament or WAAC list is having fun does not make it a "fun game", and even then don't see how its fun destroying an opponent who has no chance as I find games like that, even if I am the one destroying my opponent its not fun for anyone. People need to be willing to adapt and compromise because this whole "I am a competitive player so they need to buy competitive stuff and play competively" or "I am a fluff player, they need to not spam OP stuff and make cheese lists" is hypocritical either way you look at it.
I think all this Tau pissing and moaning stems from players not really knowing how to play 40k. Frankly if your turning down a battle because you're afraid you might lose you not really a general of an army.
Being relatively new to Tau (and not cos of the rules) I feel very disheartened to know the first models I've had in years (I had to sell the old ones) that I'm starting to build and paint with a plan to build a particular army, are just going to be ignored when I turn up to a gaming centre.
I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Oh yeah that's right everything is so OP in the codex.
Guess I shouldn't use my riptide.
What about crisis suits? Nah they're probably OP.
Firewarriors? No they're too good for the cost.
Personally I thought war games were something you tried to win.
Now don't get me wrong I know the game has flaws but as they say. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Look over at the "why do people not like playing against unpainted models thread". Its amazing the level of laziness and unwillingness that some people have. Its this defense mechanism people have developed over the years, "If you don't like it, quit" "I can do whatever I want with my hobby" etc etc. Its the anthem of an entitled generation to expect everyone to accept their lazy gak attitudes and bad behaviour as either some sort of life choice or disease.
The warhammer community is packed with Goobs, the guys that never learn, don't want to learn, and are incredibly vocal when it comes to you telling them to up their game.
Wow really? So because I have school, a girlfriend, am in the Army, I work and also take care of myself by working out (and to maintain my shape for military service) that's means I am "lazy"? Maybe before calling everyone who does not paint their armies as "lazy bums" take into account that some people have priorities that take precedence over painting models for their hobby, you don't see me calling players like you "stuck up pricks" for refusing and berating players without a painted army.
Furyou Miko wrote: B) the maths don't affect the dice rolls, so it's worthless as a measuring stick.
Really? What does then? Little dice spirits perhaps?
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that mathematics affects the world. It doesn't. Mathematics describes the world. It does not have any power to change it. And, with probability, mathematics is never going to be a perfect description because there are too many factors that the mathematics doesn't take into account when rolling dice.
Anyway, everybody knows that the dice gods are real.
Do you realise probability and statistics are used to calculate EVERYTHING in our modern world; consumer patterns, weather patterns, insurance values, investments, bookmakers odds, performance of employees, etc etc. You can use maths and a good understanding of probability to affect the world around you and every successful business person, teacher, accountant, doctor, salesman, etc etc, DOES! Using the laws of probability rather than gut instint is what will make you successful. Whilst probability cannot give you EXACT numbers, it will tell you the most likely outcomes and what to expect so you can plan accordingly. Dismissing probability because it does not give definite values is foolish and shows a distint lack of understanding of probabilities. (Read up on bell curves to get a basis of understanding)
And please - claiming that you won't do the maths because you can't be bothered shouldn't be a proud boast - it is an example of either laziness or ignorance of mathematics. It is offhanded comments like this and ones such as the older generations saying without any embarrassment "oh I was never any good at maths at school" (could you imagine them admitting they struggled with reading at school with no embarrassment?), that makes it difficult for us maths teachers to make our pupils understand how important mathematics is for their development and comprehension of the world around them!
Look over at the "why do people not like playing against unpainted models thread". Its amazing the level of laziness and unwillingness that some people have. Its this defense mechanism people have developed over the years, "If you don't like it, quit" "I can do whatever I want with my hobby" etc etc. Its the anthem of an entitled generation to expect everyone to accept their lazy gak attitudes and bad behaviour as either some sort of life choice or disease.
The warhammer community is packed with Goobs, the guys that never learn, don't want to learn, and are incredibly vocal when it comes to you telling them to up their game.
Wow really? So because I have school, a girlfriend, am in the Army, I work and also take care of myself by working out (and to maintain my shape for military service) that's means I am "lazy"? Maybe before calling everyone who does not paint their armies as "lazy bums" take into account that some people have priorities that take precedence over painting models for their hobby, you don't see me calling players like you "stuck up pricks" for refusing and berating players without a painted army.
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
EDIT: It also seems you have the time to go on online forums and read through a few pages and make responses, you should be painting.
I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
And you have proved mine, maybe it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army but not if you want to paint the army WELL. Yes, a life outside of my hobby is an "excuse" you must be blessed to have so much free time on your hands. And for your information with all that I still have a partially painted army that is being finished up what I don't like is the label of "everyone is lazy and making excuses" as its a laughable comment. Saying taking care of your family or serving your country is an "excuse" is ridiculous, so kudos for you man for having ample free time.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I agree, if you are having trouble combating something or fighting a certain army you are only going to get better by fighting it and trying different tactics, utilizing different units ect. I can understand some peoples frustration when it comes to playing armies they are struggling against, but instead of complaining they should ask questions and see what they could do better, even from their opponent.
Boniface wrote: I think all this Tau pissing and moaning stems from players not really knowing how to play 40k. Frankly if your turning down a battle because you're afraid you might lose you not really a general of an army.
Being relatively new to Tau (and not cos of the rules) I feel very disheartened to know the first models I've had in years (I had to sell the old ones) that I'm starting to build and paint with a plan to build a particular army, are just going to be ignored when I turn up to a gaming centre.
I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Oh yeah that's right everything is so OP in the codex.
Guess I shouldn't use my riptide.
What about crisis suits? Nah they're probably OP.
Firewarriors? No they're too good for the cost.
Personally I thought war games were something you tried to win.
Now don't get me wrong I know the game has flaws but as they say. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I almost believe this is satire but at the same time you might be serious...
If someone whines that EVERYTHING in your codex is OP? Yeah they are just whiners. If someone makes valid arguments that certain units in your book are oppressively strong and some codices have no ability to counter? That is not whining, that is basic understanding of the game.
You seem to be under the impression that GW takes the time to balances each codex against one another and that everyone is on a level playing field. I have news for you, it's not. That is what so many people defending Tau don't seem to understand but pay lip service to. We all know this game is unbalanced to an extreme level but when it comes down to it, and your army is THAT army, you refuse to acknowledge it. Or you point fingers at other over the top armies like that makes it better. I wont berate someone for playing Tau, I will still play them mostly. But if I am playing my Nids and a Tau player drops down an all jump army with three Riptides, tons of battle suits, and a wall of kroot, I probably wont play them unless they are a good friend and they want to just test the list to see how ridiculous they can be. What I will do is guide them to play someone that might give them a challenge, suggest another match up. When I play my Nids and I decide to play swarmy with tons of gaunts and gargoyles I don't like play my friend who plays Death Wing because there is a good chance the game is going to go completely in my favor. We will have a laugh and instead of watching me throw buckets of dice all night at him we will play other people to have better match ups. In that situation I would play my dad who loves to field IG in blobs. Nothing captures the feel of an epic game like a gaunt horde versus IG blobs. The game may only last three turns before the FLGS we play it closes but it is so much fun!
I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
You don't. Terribly sorry, but the Tau Codex IS more powerful than the other ones. I wouldn't call it OP, but it's more powerful, just like Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights ruled 5th edition.
Look over at the "why do people not like playing against unpainted models thread". Its amazing the level of laziness and unwillingness that some people have. Its this defense mechanism people have developed over the years, "If you don't like it, quit" "I can do whatever I want with my hobby" etc etc. Its the anthem of an entitled generation to expect everyone to accept their lazy gak attitudes and bad behaviour as either some sort of life choice or disease.
The warhammer community is packed with Goobs, the guys that never learn, don't want to learn, and are incredibly vocal when it comes to you telling them to up their game.
Wow really? So because I have school, a girlfriend, am in the Army, I work and also take care of myself by working out (and to maintain my shape for military service) that's means I am "lazy"? Maybe before calling everyone who does not paint their armies as "lazy bums" take into account that some people have priorities that take precedence over painting models for their hobby, you don't see me calling players like you "stuck up pricks" for refusing and berating players without a painted army.
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
I'm with gmaleron on this. I have a gf who I live with, a mother who I am the sole carer for, a career which takes up hours and hours of my 'non-working' day, have a 45min commute to work each day (both ways), im miles away from all my old friends and require regular trips to Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester and London just to see them, I play football (the proper one where you use your FEET not your hands), go to the gym, funnily enough, cook, iron, clean and wash dishes/clothes for myself, have 8 boxes of unstuck models and don't own a tv. Now are you going to say that I need to prioritise if I want a game of my favourite hobby?!? People have different lifestyles to you and you need to realise this!
Honestly this doesn't surprise me. Its not because Tau are Over Powered, but rather because Tau are simply no fun to play against.
Tau are boring for opponents for the exact same reasons that many people find playing against Dwarves in Warhammer Fantasy to be tedious. Long Range Gunlines suck to play against.
I have always stood by the proposition that Warhammer 40K is best when the average engagement range is 24 inches or less. At these shorter ranges considerations such as rapid firing, but putting yourself at greater risk of being charged, moving into cover to get an advantage vs an opponent without grenades in cc, and other considerations come into play. Both players are a lot more involved and tactics and the movement phase really come into play.
What happens is that Tau has come along and their "competitive" lists tend to focus on blasting the ever living crap out of their opponents from long range, ignoring cover, and with plenty of cheap interceptor to make already high risk deep strike units useless. That sucks to play against, because it feels like the Tau player is just playing against themselves. Strategy in movement in drained away because the Tau can out range most enemies guns and ignore their cover, strategy in positioning is drained because cheap interceptor ruins already risky deep strike and outflankers. Even fast assault units tend to crumple to supporting fire.
I AM NOT SAYING TAU ARE OVERPOWERED, They can be defeated, and there are ways to play against them that will defeat them in an objective game like 40K. But its often not fun, and I cannot blame anybody for refusing to play a game when a gun line is pulled out of a bag. Because win or lose the experience is empty.
The main I complaint I here with tau is that its basically "civil war" style games where you just shoot and remove models. For a lot of people combat is the most satisfying part and Tau make that extremely difficult to pull off. Just removing stuff that hasn't done anything is not very fun. This is only amplified when played against a very good general.
It also forces you to completely change the typical linier tactics.
Boniface wrote: I think all this Tau pissing and moaning stems from players not really knowing how to play 40k. Frankly if your turning down a battle because you're afraid you might lose you not really a general of an army.
Being relatively new to Tau (and not cos of the rules) I feel very disheartened to know the first models I've had in years (I had to sell the old ones) that I'm starting to build and paint with a plan to build a particular army, are just going to be ignored when I turn up to a gaming center.
I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Oh yeah that's right everything is so OP in the codex.
Guess I shouldn't use my riptide.
What about crisis suits? Nah they're probably OP.
Firewarriors? No they're too good for the cost.
Personally I thought war games were something you tried to win.
Now don't get me wrong I know the game has flaws but as they say. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
You sound like the typical Tau Power Gamer who says that people are dumber then you are and who think you are so much better then they are because you are good at a game, congrats on being a classic example of this. And no, no one is saying that the Tau are OP, I just think that it is unbalanced and boring to play against particular Tau Lists at the moment due to the face that the new 40k rules favor the Tau in a lot of ways, as well as the fact that the Tau have means to address everything, including there weakness against CC. And sorry, but blaming the game when YOU CHOSE to play a list you know super competitive and a list that has a hard time getting games in, then thats YOUR fault, not the games. Most people like to make competitive, but fun lists so that everyone can enjoy them, but someone who purposely goes out of there way to curb stomp opponents just to win is someone with competitive issues who needs to win all the time to make himself feel good about himself it seems, or is just doing it to be a jerk.
Tau are one of the easiest armies to play because all they have to do is sit behind an Aegis Defense Wall, and get all the weapons that ignore cover and just sit back and watch there opponents die. Its no fun to play and it just makes the other player feel frustrated while the Tau player either gloating or feeling bad about it. Now, the one Tau player at my store got pissed when I called him out on his "fun list", which ended up being 3x Riptides on top of marker light spam, and I said straight up that he is a powrer gamer. Should of seen his face when I said that and even more so when he noticed everyone in the store nodding in agreement. So no, its not hard to make a competitive Tau list at all.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
If only that were true. A well written and balanced ruleset would allow this to occur, its just as shame that isn't what GW bothers to make these days.
I think the least enjoyable game that I ever played was a 7th ed fantasy game against a fully kitted out Bloodknight deathstar (naturally proxied out of random unpainted models). No fun was had.
That being said it is bad players that need to be avoided more than bad lists but when playing strangers all you have to go on is the list so....
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
Agree with you 100%. I play the game for fun, but all it takes is one power-gamer and his insane list of 3+ Riptides to ruin the fun for everyone.
I'm with gmaleron on this. I have a gf who I live with, a mother who I am the sole carer for, a career which takes up hours and hours of my 'non-working' day, have a 45min commute to work each day (both ways), im miles away from all my old friends and require regular trips to Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester and London just to see them, I play football (the proper one where you use your FEET not your hands), go to the gym, funnily enough, cook, iron, clean and wash dishes/clothes for myself, have 8 boxes of unstuck models and don't own a tv. Now are you going to say that I need to prioritise if I want a game of my favourite hobby?!? People have different lifestyles to you and you need to realise this!
Great, life is hard. I do 60 - 78hour work weeks, and paint 40k for 30minutes to an hour a day, go see my GF and hit the gym. You're quitting, giving up and making excuses instead of adapting. If you don't have time to paint how do you have time to play? And again, you're on the internet RIGHT NOW, why couldn't you use the time that you used to read this thread to prime models? Do a base coat? 3 hours a week isn't impossible and you can make massive leaps in that time over months.
He who says he can, and he who says he can't are both usually right.
I'll go a step further and actually post a how to speed paint tutorial.
Poly Ranger wrote: People have different lifestyles to you and you need to realise this!
Its perfectly possible to paint a 10 man squad to a reasonable tabletop standard in an hour and half, everyone can find an hour and a half. I just painted 150 infantry in 3 months and I was Afghan.
In fairness, the Eldar are stronger than the Tau I think. Maybe the Tau are more boring to play against, but I feel that if I can just get close enough, I can win. Getting close to Eldar is a lot harder.
I'm with gmaleron on this. I have a gf who I live with, a mother who I am the sole carer for, a career which takes up hours and hours of my 'non-working' day, have a 45min commute to work each day (both ways), im miles away from all my old friends and require regular trips to Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester and London just to see them, I play football (the proper one where you use your FEET not your hands), go to the gym, funnily enough, cook, iron, clean and wash dishes/clothes for myself, have 8 boxes of unstuck models and don't own a tv. Now are you going to say that I need to prioritise if I want a game of my favourite hobby?!? People have different lifestyles to you and you need to realise this!
Great, life is hard. I do 60 - 78hour work weeks, and paint 40k for 30minutes to an hour a day, go see my GF and hit the gym. You're quitting, giving up and making excuses instead of adapting. If you don't have time to paint how do you have time to play? And again, you're on the internet RIGHT NOW, why couldn't you use the time that you used to read this thread to prime models? Do a base coat? 3 hours a week isn't impossible and you can make massive leaps in that time over months.
He who says he can, and he who says he can't are both usually right.
I'll go a step further and actually post a how to speed paint tutorial.
Because I prefer gaming over painting. I prefer discussion of 40k over painting. You honestly have no idea what you are talking about when you consider other people 'quitters' for not painting. Just because YOU enjoy something and believe in something doesn't mean you should force others to be or believe that way. In fact, that is what has led to most of the problems throughout human history. You know nothing of my life apart from the small amount I have just told you. Therefore you are in no position and have absolutely NO right to judge me! If I want to sit back after a hard day at work, I'm not going to think of painting my models to please you first. Walk on mate and go judge somebody else because I can't be bothered with taking your judgemental attitude (edited to avoid offense).
Boniface wrote: I think all this Tau pissing and moaning stems from players not really knowing how to play 40k. Frankly if your turning down a battle because you're afraid you might lose you not really a general of an army.
Being relatively new to Tau (and not cos of the rules) I feel very disheartened to know the first models I've had in years (I had to sell the old ones) that I'm starting to build and paint with a plan to build a particular army, are just going to be ignored when I turn up to a gaming center.
I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Oh yeah that's right everything is so OP in the codex.
Guess I shouldn't use my riptide.
What about crisis suits? Nah they're probably OP.
Firewarriors? No they're too good for the cost.
Personally I thought war games were something you tried to win.
Now don't get me wrong I know the game has flaws but as they say. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
You sound like the typical Tau Power Gamer who says that people are dumber then you are and who think you are so much better then they are because you are good at a game, congrats on being a classic example of this. And no, no one is saying that the Tau are OP, I just think that it is unbalanced and boring to play against particular Tau Lists at the moment due to the face that the new 40k rules favor the Tau in a lot of ways, as well as the fact that the Tau have means to address everything, including there weakness against CC. And sorry, but blaming the game when YOU CHOSE to play a list you know super competitive and a list that has a hard time getting games in, then thats YOUR fault, not the games. Most people like to make competitive, but fun lists so that everyone can enjoy them, but someone who purposely goes out of there way to curb stomp opponents just to win is someone with competitive issues who needs to win all the time to make himself feel good about himself it seems, or is just doing it to be a jerk.
Tau are one of the easiest armies to play because all they have to do is sit behind an Aegis Defense Wall, and get all the weapons that ignore cover and just sit back and watch there opponents die. Its no fun to play and it just makes the other player feel frustrated while the Tau player either gloating or feeling bad about it. Now, the one Tau player at my store got pissed when I called him out on his "fun list", which ended up being 3x Riptides on top of marker light spam, and I said straight up that he is a powrer gamer. Should of seen his face when I said that and even more so when he noticed everyone in the store nodding in agreement. So no, its not hard to make a competitive Tau list at all.
Nice one. Shaming a guy for being better than you at mandollies.
It's understandable, though, as the alternative requires effort and you seem to be under the impression that wins should just be handed to you.
Learn to play, and you'll soon realize that the Tau gunline crouching behind an aegis line is pretty crappy and easy to beat, and a Tau army that relies on markerlight support from Pathfinders is easily dismantled. Or, just continue sucking and whine about the evil powergamers.
Tau is not an overpowered army. Not in a competitive sense. It's a good army, yes, but so are Necrons, Space Marines, Daemons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Sisters. It's only overpowered against scrubs who cannot comprehend any other way of playing 40k than going for a massive slugfest in the middle, while putting a few token squads on objectives during deployment and expecting them to still be there 6 turns later.
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
And you have proved mine, maybe it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army but not if you want to paint the army WELL. Yes, a life outside of my hobby is an "excuse" you must be blessed to have so much free time on your hands. And for your information with all that I still have a partially painted army that is being finished up what I don't like is the label of "everyone is lazy and making excuses" as its a laughable comment. Saying taking care of your family or serving your country is an "excuse" is ridiculous, so kudos for you man for having ample free time.
Ah so you're just advocating laziness.
I guess they don't teach "adapt and overcome" in the military anymore.
Here's how to paint 10 minute guardsmen:
Prime white
Brush on watered down khaki, flesh, dark grey and whatever the armour colour you choose is.
Apply wash
Paint metal
Apply wash
There, you have a table top ready army that you can go back and wet blend up if you choose. You've proven my point entirely, instead of trying, you've just quit and made a defense mechanism as to why you're right. AND YOU'RE STILL ON THE INTERNET WASTING TIME. You clearly have the the spare hour to paint!
I'm with gmaleron on this. I have a gf who I live with, a mother who I am the sole carer for, a career which takes up hours and hours of my 'non-working' day, have a 45min commute to work each day (both ways), im miles away from all my old friends and require regular trips to Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester and London just to see them, I play football (the proper one where you use your FEET not your hands), go to the gym, funnily enough, cook, iron, clean and wash dishes/clothes for myself, have 8 boxes of unstuck models and don't own a tv. Now are you going to say that I need to prioritise if I want a game of my favourite hobby?!? People have different lifestyles to you and you need to realise this!
Great, life is hard. I do 60 - 78hour work weeks, and paint 40k for 30minutes to an hour a day, go see my GF and hit the gym. You're quitting, giving up and making excuses instead of adapting. If you don't have time to paint how do you have time to play? And again, you're on the internet RIGHT NOW, why couldn't you use the time that you used to read this thread to prime models? Do a base coat? 3 hours a week isn't impossible and you can make massive leaps in that time over months.
He who says he can, and he who says he can't are both usually right.
I'll go a step further and actually post a how to speed paint tutorial.
Hmmm you seem to be suffering from a superiority complex apparently, just hush and let people paint there armies on there own time and not yours dude. Who cares about that anyways? I honestly dont care if its painted or not, just so long as they have an army to play with then Im content with that. As for me, Im not a good painter but I still try, my issue is that I like to get my whole army together before I start painting, thats just how I do it.
And Thud, not trying to single you out but again, you play Tau all the time and yet someone earlier pointed out that Tau players just don't see it or wont admit it that there Army is hard to fight due to the rules that made shooting even better. I have beaten the Tau a number of times, but they are extremely frustrating and boring to play against oveall.
Poly Ranger wrote: People have different lifestyles to you and you need to realise this!
Its perfectly possible to paint a 10 man squad to a reasonable tabletop standard in an hour and half, everyone can find an hour and a half. I just painted 150 infantry in 3 months and I was Afghan.
I can't. I am actually totally awful at painting and it takes me longer to paint a model than to mark a class worth of books and its still an awful paint job. We are not all the same. And I do not mind paying more on ebay for painted models to make my army look better. But when someone I play judges me because I have 2 or 3 squads in a 1.5k battles unpainted it makes me very annoyed. Its like somebody refusing to let you join in at football because you have two left feet! My favourite part of the hobby is battling not painting and thats what im in the game for!
Hmmm you seem to be suffering from a superiority complex apparently, just hush and let people paint there armies on there own time and not yours dude. Who cares about that anyways? I honestly dont care if its painted or not, just so long as they have an army to play with then Im content with that.
I don't really care, just don't sugar coat lazy cant do attitudes. Instead of making the million of excuses just simply say "Im lazy and don't want to try to find the time" and move on.
I'm more annoyed about people bitching that they cant do something and make it seem like its out of their power to do anything about it. That's defeatism at its very core.
EDIT: Or get your army commissioned! Clearly if some of you work so much you have the money.
There is nothing wrong with being upset that no matter what you do, your opponent will have a greater than 50% chance of beating you, just because he picked Tau.
However, it's foolish to play 40K and expect the rules to be balanced enough to always be able to have a fair or advantageous match up.
If you choose to play Dan, you can't complain about the other Street Fighters. But it's also your right to refuse a match. And when this many people dodge Tau outside of tournaments, it's kind of telling of the game's balance and/or Internet hype.
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
And you have proved mine, maybe it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army but not if you want to paint the army WELL. Yes, a life outside of my hobby is an "excuse" you must be blessed to have so much free time on your hands. And for your information with all that I still have a partially painted army that is being finished up what I don't like is the label of "everyone is lazy and making excuses" as its a laughable comment. Saying taking care of your family or serving your country is an "excuse" is ridiculous, so kudos for you man for having ample free time.
Ah so you're just advocating laziness.
I guess they don't teach "adapt and overcome" in the military anymore.
Here's how to paint 10 minute guardsmen:
Prime white
Brush on watered down khaki, flesh, dark grey and whatever the armour colour you choose is.
Apply wash
Paint metal
Apply wash
There, you have a table top ready army that you can go back and wet blend up if you choose. You've proven my point entirely, instead of trying, you've just quit and made a defense mechanism as to why you're right. AND YOU'RE STILL ON THE INTERNET WASTING TIME. You clearly have the the spare hour to paint!
Are you for real? I mean...Seriously?
"Adapt and overcome!" For painting? Seriously?
Listen, for some of us the last thing we want to do after working all day is sit down to paint. I know I only paint on my days off if I don't have anything else planned. I like to paint my armies better than JUST table top ready, so it takes me a bit more time to finish a squad than just throwing colors on. I paint maybe one day a week for an hour or two. That's not giving up, I just don't care so much about little plastic and metal army men that I want to dedicate hours a day to finish my armies, I will do it at my leisure as it suits me. Unless you start paying me to paint then I do not care in the slightest what you think.
I know your post wasn't directed at me but it might as well have been with this attitude you are advocating. Why do you get so worked up that someones DARES to enjoy their free time in ways different from you.
@Ravenous. Look I may have come across as irritated and peeved but it really annoys me when people get their superiority complex of painting over me. And when I'm basically told i'm lazy that just infuriates me. I am not lazy. In fact probably one of the least lazy people you will ever meet. I am currently on my phone typing as I cannot sleep (it is almost 12 here and im up at 5). I simply do not have the time to paint, unless I get absolutely zero relaxation time (painting is definitely not relaxing for me - it is a chore). So please in future do not judge people as lazy if you do not know them or their circumstances.
I guess they don't teach "adapt and overcome" in the military anymore.
Here's how to paint 10 minute guardsmen:
Prime white
Brush on watered down khaki, flesh, dark grey and whatever the armour colour you choose is.
Apply wash
Paint metal
Apply wash
There, you have a table top ready army that you can go back and wet blend up if you choose. You've proven my point entirely, instead of trying, you've just quit and made a defense mechanism as to why you're right. AND YOU'RE STILL ON THE INTERNET WASTING TIME. You clearly have the the spare hour to paint!
Advocating laziness my @$$, get off your high horse dude, never seen someone so full of themselves because they paint models. When did I say I have quit? When did I say I have stopped painting? Guess what, I never did and you can keep the military out of it as I am sure someone who probably has never been deployed or asked to serve there country can relate to. Ill just "adapt and overcome" to be sure to ignore you in the future, oh and by the way your still on the internet as well .
The issue I had with you was never the fact that I don't paint my models, a fact that you conveniently seemed to overlook, but the fact you were calling everyone lazy, quitters, ect. for not having painted armies. First of all READ before posting stuff, second just because you enjoy speed painting your army does not mean all of us do and third the fact that I do all that outside of the hobby an that makes me lazy? Keep on trolling bro, your just making people who prefer to play with painted armies look bad with your biased, inaccurate and negative comments.
Sorry for Hijacking the thread, but don't appreciate someone who has never met me accusing me of being lazy, sadly over a hobby, back to topic!
And Thud, not trying to single you out but again, you play Tau all the time and yet someone earlier pointed out that Tau players just don't see it or wont admit it that there Army is hard to fight due to the rules that made shooting even better. I have beaten the Tau a number of times, but they are extremely frustrating and boring to play against oveall.
Uhm, I'm not a Tau player.
I will be, once I get my Farsight book in the mail, but that's more of a modelling project and will be as far from OP as you could possibly get with Tau (super-fluffy Farsight Enclaves).
I personally spent 3 and a half months painting my army of dark angels before I ever took it into a store. Those nights when you're going to play, just don't go and paint your models dude.
Lets take it over here guys, I don't want to derail this thread.
Back to tau, I think the other problem is that tournaments are usually lighter on terrain and Tau have obvious advantages and counters to nearly everything that you can squeeze into a standard list. You can still out fight them but you need to be smarter about it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.
Reanimation protocol is - edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason -
Tau firepower is way too good for the price afforded.
Seriously, when a squad of Stealth Suits eats up half a blob of Cultists and we're paying about the same price, there is a problem.
That said, the fix for the Tau is simple: MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE. Same with the Necrons.
Getting tired of playing Kill Team against a Necron player whose throwing 20 damn whatevers at my 6 Chosen and they keep getting back up. At least in a fire fight with Tau, they have the good decency to die when I roll a 6 through their fxcking eye piece. ><
Yeah pretty much anything you can take is fluffy as a game represents a blink of time on a battlefield. If we really wanted to do fluffy you'd have 10,000pts of space marines vs 1000pts of guard at there main munitions depot that causes rules for remainder of the 9000pts of guardsmen to have shortages on food and ammo.
Fluff games are carefully played and narrated, pick up games are pretty much whatever you got, and tournaments you are looking to bring the most efficient. So you cant really be surprised when you take a knife to a gun fight. Plus fluffy armies usually means self imposed rules and restrictions, you cant expect everyone to cater to that.
People are no way obliged to play against someones quadtide, IG rain of pain or triple drakes or whatever unless they go to a tournament or whatever.
"Competitive" 40k is not the only 40k around, some people just want to enjoy themselves and if that involves not facing your cheese then deal or go play someone else - just like they are doing when they refuse to play against you.
Personally, I ask "casual or serious" before each game, and I make sure potential opponents are 100% clear that I'm bringing a list of whichever type before we start.
Seriously, when a squad of Stealth Suits eats up half a blob of Cultists and we're paying about the same price, there is a problem.
Wait, what?
Are you complaining about STEALTH SUITS being OP?
With the other guys talking about cover-ignoring Riptides and Buffcommanders and what-have-you, I could at least see where they're coming from, even if I disagree strongly, but Stealth Suits?
People are no way obliged to play against someones quadtide, IG rain of pain or triple drakes or whatever unless they go to a tournament or whatever.
"Competitive" 40k is not the only 40k around, some people just want to enjoy themselves and if that involves not facing your cheese then deal or go play someone else - just like they are doing when they refuse to play against you.
Personally, I ask "casual or serious" before each game, and I make sure potential opponents are 100% clear that I'm bringing a list of whichever type before we start.
Yup, the difference for me there is that I will leave the movement tactics at home (unless they start pulling them) and I will help with your rules and stuff you forget. In a tournament I will wreck you using every tactic I can and will let you be responsible for your mistakes.
Seriously, when a squad of Stealth Suits eats up half a blob of Cultists and we're paying about the same price, there is a problem.
Wait, what?
Are you complaining about STEALTH SUITS being OP?
With the other guys talking about cover-ignoring Riptides and Buffcommanders and what-have-you, I could at least see where they're coming from, even if I disagree strongly, but Stealth Suits?
Now you're just taking the piss.
Noooo, I'm a new player who has been shot to Please don't bypass the language filter like this.Reds8n by shooting. Yes, Riptides, Buffcommanders and all that stuff the pro's know all about is frustrating, but for a new jack like me, when just Stealth Suits can eat up half of your troop choice, that's bad. I also didn't know I was "complaining" necessarilly, as much as I was joining the conversation.
I, also, apparently have a radically drastic way of fixing this Shooting Spam session that apparently is also a completely newbie suggestion (based on the responses I got last time I suggested this) however, the problem I've had with shooting hasn't been getting into Charge Range, but actually completing the damn charge with sh!t like Overwatch and Supporting Fire. So, the way I (in my head) got around this for my Chaos Space Marines was a larger Dirge Caster (8 in instead of 6 in).
And terrain. Terrain is probably the most important thing needed to beating down a shooting match. It's how I get around. Of course, pro's tell me that I'm playing on boards with more terrain than normal, so go figure.
Noooo, I'm a new player who has been shot to see above. Reds8n by shooting. Yes, Riptides, Buffcommanders and all that stuff the pro's know all about is frustrating, but for a new jack like me, when just Stealth Suits can eat up half of your troop choice, that's bad. I also didn't know I was "complaining" necessarilly, as much as I was joining the conversation.
One Stealth Suit costs more points than seven Cultists. For the same points as a minimum squad you can have a unit of 20 Cultists (including the squad leader dude).
Stealth Suits are also armed with anti-light infantry weapons.
You shouldn't really be surprised that they killed a bunch of your cannon fodder.
Guess I can't have an opinion any which way, huh?
This ain't my first rodeo, cowboy.
You get to have as many opinions as you want, but that doesn't mean people will agree with them.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.
To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.
I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.
Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.
Niexist wrote: Yeah cultists have a 6+ armor save, so they're bound to die, I mean no save against a bolter after all.
No doubt. That's what they are there for. In fact, the start about putting them around an HQ (like Abbadon or Kharn) is built around that fact. lol. But when (and Tau players, check me here because this could just be a continuation of my "Cheat" story) Stealth Suits can infiltrate, then dump 10+ shots on a blob of cultists that's only 20 strong.... well, you can see how that becomes ridiculous really quick. lol
Honestly though, I think Tau are destined to be shrunk the same way Grey Knights and SM get shrunk by point costs. If the Tau want to keep their awesome shooting, then there should be less soldiers to shoot so awesome-ly.
To whoever (Thud?): No, I'm not surprised my cultists get slaughtered. Like I said, that's what they are for. I'm just disturbed that they were slaughtered before turn 1 was even over. @.@ Before I could even have a turn 1, I lost half of my troop choices. There are all kinds of factors that can get thrown up, but that potential is just absurd, imb. Especially when you consider everything else I was up against at that time.
It's like the Tau have every single rule in the book, it's just a matter of when they want to use them. Another example of something the Tau don't need? Hit and Run? Why? Long Guns wasn't bad enough, we had to make them longer by letting the soldiers run away after they shoot? That's crazy. ><
And I don't post in the hopes of agreement, chief. In fact, I learn more when I'm proven wrong or had things explained a little better. For example, Niexist helped me understand this situation better.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.
To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.
I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.
Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.
So.... Spamming crappy units = fluffy and themed, but spamming good units = douchy powergaming and unfluffy?
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.
To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.
I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.
Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.
So.... Spamming crappy units = fluffy and themed, but spamming good units = douchy powergaming and unfluffy?
Gotcha.
There are 8 seperate very different units for Ravenwing, and 3 for deathwing, for a total of 11 different units in a deathwing/ravenwing combination army, how is that spam compared to bringing 3 of a single unit???
hotsauceman1 wrote: I think people need to stop whining over loosing. If you want to get better, Get better. To win requires dedication. If you want to win it requires you to train and make yourself better, which requires time. If you do not want to put in the time, then dont whine
I don't care about winning, I care about having fun. Having my fluffy army crushed by triptide or any other competitive list is absolutely no fun for me. So don't whine when I don't feel like playing against a powergaming list and say no to playing you.
I have to ask this. What is a "Fluffy" army. Because everything in the codex is fluff. Tau do use riptides, they are fluff.
To me at least, a fluffy army is one that has a specific theme around it that really defines how the entire army is played.
I love playing my Ravenwing/Deathwing army. It isn't optimal because of the ridiculous amount of ap2 that is in the game now, but still a blast to play and it really feels like I am doing Dark Angels things. It's high risk, mediocre reward but an absolute blast to play and play against, from what I have been told. Spamming three of a single unit like a riptide or a heldrake just seems to me more of a powergaming move than a fluff one. Yeah riptides are there in the codex but it also says they are a very rare thing. Fielding 3+ riptides just isn't fluff friendly. I honestly don't even mind heldrake spam that much from a fluff perspective, I just dislike how they toast my bikes.
Different strokes for different folks though. I don't mind playing competitively, but when I'm playing my fun fluffy list I don't want to go up against a tournament curbstomping list.
So.... Spamming crappy units = fluffy and themed, but spamming good units = douchy powergaming and unfluffy?
Gotcha.
Spamming three riptides isn't fluffy. They are supposed to be extremely rare in the empire. And yes, spamming what is generally viewed as OP is a pretty douchy powergaming move. I don't mind playing (well I do slightly) playing against triptide or 3drake with my competitive lists, but when I tell someone I am playing my casual silly list and they drop triptide or the like on the field, that just isn't nice. I don't go into a casual game with my 4 Land Raider list when I know they would be ill equipped to deal with it, even though it would be fluffy for Dark Angels. When I play casual games I play for the fun that the battle is going to be and not to win, although that is always icing on the cake. Dropping triptide in a casual game is just an donkey-cave move and there is absolutely no way to spin it any other way.
I have to agree - no one is obligated to play against anyone else.
I went to the store this week - a tau player was there, and had trouble getting a game. No one wanted to play him.
His army is always the same - minimum firewarriors, max all other shooting, maybe 10% painted. He cordons off his army behind an aegis, and doesn't move.
By the way, I guess I should mention I don't take the defensive line in my army. It's not even something I think about so I keep forgetting it's actually a thing people use with Tau.
I think the real issue is less with the Tau codex (thoug it can be OP with certain buolds), but with people still playing terrain like it's 5th edition. If you can draw a clear line of sight eithout SOME kind of cover or LOS terrain from any point on any table edge to any point on the opposite table edge you're not doing it right. Planet cueball and Agriworld fights are dead, playmore terrain and things get more even.
And remember to roll for Night Fight. It cuts some of the Tau firepower down a bit as less units can shoot.
Furyou Miko wrote: My Order of the Bloody Rose esque Sisters army with two squads of outflanking melta-dominions is going to get crushed generally by a 'tuned' army?
Aye... my SoB in general have no problems with AV14 or Tau. Tanks just go poof and I have enough bodies to spend on taking out Tau infantry so the army gets crippled and non-scoring. I seldom manage to take out all the silly jump-around suits but I don't need to as long as they stay away from my few remaining scoring models.
Virtually every codex can come up with an optimal build, whatever the hell that is, and be competitive. Ultimately, it comes down to which mission and table type the game is. Exactly how well will a tau army do on the short table with 5 objectives and 12 fire warriors as troop choices? Probably not very good. Tau armies aren't terribly good against av 13-14 either for that matter. I've seen IG armies tear Tau to pieces. I've seen chaos demons shred a Tau army, and I've watched Eldar completely destroy a Tau army.
If your argument is, you don't like playing Tau, because you don't have fun against Tau, ok, fair enough. If your argument is you don't like playing Tau because they hold a massive advantage over every other army, your best bet is to buy a Tau codex, understand it, and then build an army that can exploit it's weaknesses.
Units are typically spammed because they are too good for their cost in points. If one such unit is cheap and extremely good, why not have a maximum number of them?
In our group we don't/can't follow wysiwyg on models all the time, but we indicate what is what on the model. I have not fielded the same list more than a couple of times. It is fun to have varying opposition instead of always facing 3 Riptides, WS spam or flycrons with the usual number of wraiths.
Last I played our Tau he fielded Vespids and 2 Devilfish. It was good fun.
Naw wrote: Units are typically spammed because they are too good for their cost in points. If one such unit is cheap and extremely good, why not have a maximum number of them?
In our group we don't/can't follow wysiwyg on models all the time, but we indicate what is what on the model. I have not fielded the same list more than a couple of times. It is fun to have varying opposition instead of always facing 3 Riptides, WS spam or flycrons with the usual number of wraiths.
Last I played our Tau he fielded Vespids and 2 Devilfish. It was good fun.
Agreed, I hate playing the same list over and over again, heck thats why I have so many points into Dark Angels, if I want I can run greenwing, or Deathwing (currently not enough bikes to run ravenwing YET!)
Do you realise probability and statistics are used to calculate EVERYTHING in our modern world; consumer patterns, weather patterns, insurance values, investments, bookmakers odds, performance of employees, etc etc. You can use maths and a good understanding of probability to affect the world around you and every successful business person, teacher, accountant, doctor, salesman, etc etc, DOES! Using the laws of probability rather than gut instint is what will make you successful. Whilst probability cannot give you EXACT numbers, it will tell you the most likely outcomes and what to expect so you can plan accordingly. Dismissing probability because it does not give definite values is foolish and shows a distint lack of understanding of probabilities. (Read up on bell curves to get a basis of understanding)
And please - claiming that you won't do the maths because you can't be bothered shouldn't be a proud boast - it is an example of either laziness or ignorance of mathematics. It is offhanded comments like this and ones such as the older generations saying without any embarrassment "oh I was never any good at maths at school" (could you imagine them admitting they struggled with reading at school with no embarrassment?), that makes it difficult for us maths teachers to make our pupils understand how important mathematics is for their development and comprehension of the world around them!
I know all that.
Statistics is my best subject in mathematics (much to the derision of my mathematician friends).
I also know that the statisticians who work on consumer patterns, insurance values, etc put a hell of a lot more numbers into their calculations than just the equivalent of BS, S/T and Sv+ comparisons that get used in 40k mathhammer.
The fact is that the maths involved in 40k strategising are so simple as to be as accurate as guessing. They're an insult to statistical analysis. In addition, all working out the statistical probabilities does in 40k is demoralise people. and destroy their fighting spirit. In stead of, "It's a small chance, but this is my only hope! FOR THE EMPEROR!!" it turns into "Oh, I can't do this, there's only a 5% chance of doing it any damage, I should just give up and pack away. This is impossible."
That is why I can't be bothered. It just damages the hobby and isn't accurate enough to be meaningful.
That said, the fix for the Tau is simple: MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE.
I disagree entirely; Tau were only marginally more expensive under their last codex and they were terrible in 5th ed. They had already improved under 6th whilst still using their 4th ed codex, which tells me that the problem doesn't lie within the Tau codex itself, but with the fact that 6th edition has refocused the rules in a way that happens to supremely suit Tau. If you want to fix that, you need to be looking at the rule book, probably with the assaulting from vehicles (or not, as is currently the case).
Ironically I think the main problem in the Tau codex that contributes to this is the one unit that got more expensive in relative terms; the humble Devilfish. Tau shouldn't be a static gun line army IMHO, they used to be all about manoeuvre fire. But when your base transport, naked, is 80 points, you just don't want to be sinking the points into it. If the Devilfish was a more reasonable price (say 60 points), you might see more Tau players loading up the Firewarriors to move off the gun line to claim forward objectives or use the good ol' fish of fury tactics. And that would bring them in range of your precious melee units and mid-range weapons.
That said, the fix for the Tau is simple: MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE.
I disagree entirely; Tau were only marginally more expensive under their last codex and they were terrible in 5th ed. They had already improved under 6th whilst still using their 4th ed codex, which tells me that the problem doesn't lie within the Tau codex itself, but with the fact that 6th edition has refocused the rules in a way that happens to supremely suit Tau. If you want to fix that, you need to be looking at the rule book, probably with the assaulting from vehicles (or not, as is currently the case).
Ironically I think the main problem in the Tau codex that contributes to this is the one unit that got more expensive in relative terms; the humble Devilfish. Tau shouldn't be a static gun line army IMHO, they used to be all about manoeuvre fire. But when your base transport, naked, is 80 points, you just don't want to be sinking the points into it. If the Devilfish was a more reasonable price (say 60 points), you might see more Tau players loading up the Firewarriors to move off the gun line to claim forward objectives or use the good ol' fish of fury tactics. And that would bring them in range of your precious melee units and mid-range weapons.
+1
I only ever faced them once in 5th, they looked nice but were a little 'wtf?' one the gameplay side- now of course they are far better.
my 2k list for arguments sake:
commander
3 battle suits- these guys have killed way more than the riptides combined 3 marker light hits= goodbye squad
2 riptides
36 walking FW
2x 6 FW in devilfish
2 hammerheads
3 broadsides
10 pathfinders (2x5)
its caused more trouble than I ever imagined I actually move up the board when it is needed, using an ageis line is asking for an ig army to drop manticores on it, they hurt... moreover it removes the flexibility that Tau have they are good at gunlines no doubt. But a bit of moving around makes their firepower even better, seeing 2 riptides move up the table with back up has caused more than one army to collapse. However that depends upon the opposing force, as sometimes players refuse to play ball and go for their own gun line which then ends up in them getting blown to bits.
And most of the 'abuse' I've suffered has been about pathfinders and markerlights handy for buggering up a nasty squad in short order
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
oh the arrogance!
Agreed. It's almost as if they think the list needs doesn't even need them there to move the models, choose what to use and where, what to shoot and to roll dice. Apparently the list is all you need!
Seriously, Tau may make for stronger lists, but lists alone don't win games.
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
oh the arrogance!
Agreed. It's almost as if they think the list needs doesn't even need them there to move the models, choose what to use and where, what to shoot and to roll dice. Apparently the list is all you need!
Seriously, Tau may make for stronger lists, but lists alone don't win games.
Debatable.
Orks in 4th ed were nearly idiot proof, even in 5th you had to go out of your way to make a bad list. Then grey knights happened... purifiers pfffft.
Guard are actually really good in this edtion (until they nerf them into the ground with the next book, cause its only got one direction to go), barrage being a snipe weapon makes them silly. A cheap mortar can kill a 30pt marine with a heavy weapon. In my eldar I take a single Shadow weaver and he MVPs every game killing 5 times his cost usually.
Boniface wrote: I'm sorry that we Tau player just know how to build better lists than the rest of you so they can play against any army relatively effectively.
Yes, that must be it! Your mad skills at list building! Imagine those Ork, Blood Angels etc players are just a bunch of morons for not knowing how to build a winning list.
oh the arrogance!
Agreed. It's almost as if they think the list needs doesn't even need them there to move the models, choose what to use and where, what to shoot and to roll dice. Apparently the list is all you need!
Seriously, Tau may make for stronger lists, but lists alone don't win games.
Debatable.
Orks in 4th ed were nearly idiot proof, even in 5th you had to go out of your way to make a bad list. Then grey knights happened... purifiers pfffft.
Guard are actually really good in this edtion (until they nerf them into the ground with the next book, cause its only got one direction to go), barrage being a snipe weapon makes them silly. A cheap mortar can kill a 30pt marine with a heavy weapon. In my eldar I take a single Shadow weaver and he MVPs every game killing 5 times his cost usually.
No list works with zero player input. This isn't a game you can set to AFK mode, walk away, come back and have won.
The fact is that a well built list can, and will, mitigate a lot of the weaknesses of the army, or captialize on it's strengths (or both) by a really slip shod player can lose with it just as well as anything. Lists don't win games on their lwn, they just make it easier for players to win games instead.
I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
Zagman wrote: I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top. You cant quote one tournament as proof of your theory. This very next one invalidates saying without question elder should be more feared than tau
Niexist wrote: There are 8 seperate very different units for Ravenwing, and 3 for deathwing, for a total of 11 different units in a deathwing/ravenwing combination army, how is that spam compared to bringing 3 of a single unit???
Space Marines on bikes, Space Marines in Terminator armour and Land Speeders. Not spammy at all.
Very Superstitious wrote: Spamming three riptides isn't fluffy. They are supposed to be extremely rare in the empire.
I don't know what fluff you're reading, but pretty much the only fluff I've come across with regards to Riptides describes several of them working together.
Zagman wrote: I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
and, with the very next post, everything you have said is invalidated.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top.
Did you actually bother to read his post before you "invalidated" it? In your link, you have to go down all the way to #42 to find a Tau army without allies. Below an SoB army and a Blood Angels army.
Three out of the first 4 are Tau allied with Tau? Presumably to get more Riptides? Does that not say somehting about their / The Tau Codexes power in the game?
First time I read their stats I was shocked about hard Riptides are to kill.........High toughness wth a 2+ armour then they get a a 5++ and Feel no pain if that was not enough.....
Its a bit sick when there are a number of them..........
Zagman wrote: I'm going to post what I just posted on another thread literally minutes ago.
Wow, more people whining about Tau.
Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.
The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.
Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.
Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.
As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.
And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top. You cant quote one tournament as proof of your theory. This very next one invalidates saying without question elder should be more feared than tau
Yep, posting results where the O'VesaStar came out of nowhere and before people knew how to deal with it. Also, people have brought their eldar up to speed after finding they pretty much destroy Tau. Results from the latest tournaments have Tau placing behind Tau/Tau, Tau/SM, Tau/Eldar, Eldar/Tau, Eldar. Don't forget to note how much of that field included Tau.
Mono Tau isn't that strong, but they bring a ton to other armies. The meta is constantly evolving and takes time to settle. We are only beginning to realize the effects of SM.
PS, the NOVA was not the most recent major tournament and was pre SM. You know, that army which brings a hard counter for Broadsides, Riptides, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lucarikx wrote: Strangely enough, pure Tau was on the final table at FoB Invitational.
Edit: I had to go to 27th to find Mono Tau. And 3 of the bottom 6 were Mono Tau. That tells a different story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: Three out of the first 4 are Tau allied with Tau? Presumably to get more Riptides? Does that not say somehting about their / The Tau Codexes power in the game?
First time I read their stats I was shocked about hard Riptides are to kill.........High toughness wth a 2+ armour then they get a a 5++ and Feel no pain if that was not enough.....
Its a bit sick when there are a number of them..........
And that was right after Farsight Enclave dropped and it hit the Meta hard. Now, the Meta has adjusted and Riptide Spam is much weaker than it was before. GravSpam is a pretty hard counter. The O'VesaStar doesn't seem to be faring as well this last two months.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Reanimation protocol is
Snip~
Getting tired of playing Kill Team against a Necron player whose throwing 20 damn whatevers at my 6 Chosen and they keep getting back up. At least in a fire fight with Tau, they have the good decency to die when I roll a 6 through their fxcking eye piece. ><
Sorry bring this back for a sec.
Those necrons shouldn't be getting back up as they aren't a unit. killing one is removing the whole unit: AKA no Res
Back to OP, a Big chunk of all the complaints always stems from lack of LOS, and not understanding the damn rules. Also half the people not wanting to change there current lists to accommodate the new changes.
As something i should sig eventually.
Savageconvoy wrote: These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"
So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.
hi this is the most recent tourney. Notice all the tau at the top. You cant quote one tournament as proof of your theory. This very next one invalidates saying without question elder should be more feared than tau
We get it Martel732, lament all BA players cause they have an old dex and they are overcosted. We get it, they'll come around again. It sucks, there is only one competitive BA build and it involves spamming Ravens. This is a normal part of 40k.
All in all the thread has became the following: -mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units. -Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so) -obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced".. -Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play? -So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair -Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them
For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAACTFG Power gamer, etc, etc
All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..
What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..
Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.
Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).
Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.
Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board
Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..
Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..
Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..
-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die. -Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that. -Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.
Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..
On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..
Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...
My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.
I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).
The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.
The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?
I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons
The Tau are weakest in a phase of the game that often doesn't even happen against them or doesn't have any meaningful impact on the outcome. That is, you feed the assault squad an expendable unit and then just shoot them to next turn.
What happened to reliance on synergy as a weakness?
A lot of there strength still comes from multiple different units working together?
Why are both of your examples so extremely skewed
there is nearly nothing that stops deep strikes from scattering that doesn't involve models being put closer (aka in charge range). If you know your going to face riptides why are you clumping models together to allow 7 hits per template that's just silly. and for that matter why are you failing EVERY moral test? The examples them selves just erked me though anyway I will agree dice happens. consistent or not.
Edit: geeze i should refresh first. (at happygolucky)
ClockworkZion wrote: Also love the "I stopped paying attention, so let's post a wall of text" post right above my previous post.
Works a charm , just posting final thoughts on my opinion of the whole thread.
At least it was not a trolling post
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: What happened to reliance on synergy as a weakness?
A lot of there strength still comes from multiple different units working together?
Why are both of your examples so extremely skewed
there is nearly nothing that stops deep strikes from scattering that doesn't involve models being put closer (aka in charge range). If you know your going to face riptides why are you clumping models together to allow 7 hits per template that's just silly. and for that matter why are you failing EVERY moral test? The examples them selves just erked me though anyway I will agree dice happens. consistent or not.
Edit: geeze i should refresh first. (at happygolucky)
As I said it was deliberate to show each groups side of the argument so both side's could agree on some type of ground (what that ground is, is up to the posters) without the rudeness that many posters have posted in this thread (because in general people are willing to listen if you put both sides of the argument in a non bias layout)
All in all the thread has became the following:
-mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units.
-Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so)
-obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced"..
-Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play?
-So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair
-Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them
For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAACTFG Power gamer, etc, etc
All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..
What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..
Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.
Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).
Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.
Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board
Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..
Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..
Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..
-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die.
-Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that.
-Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.
Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..
On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..
Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...
My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.
I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).
The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.
The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?
I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
Really I will grant that if Tau dex was out in 5e I think it would have been a good codex that would have covered weaknesses, but not nullifying weaknesses (for instance if there wasnt overwatch tau would have to be much more strategic, rather than just burn markerlights til cheese)
EDIT: and please Tau players dont try to feed me the tripe of "WE GET THE NEW CODEX SO LEAVE US ALONE IN OUR CHEESE" because all that makes me want to do is interwebz slap you in the face when you gripe about the next cheesy army....then again thats how I feel about all the people who say that about their army, I started DA in mid 5th where they were subpar....and I will keep playing them when they go subpar later this edition/next edition
All in all the thread has became the following:
-mobbed by competitive gamers (as per usual on these types of threads) lording over that people should not play casual games by stating that they should not take "crap" units.
-Same Tau players whining that people should be forced to play their triple tide list (by heavily implying it so)
-obnoxious posters Saying that other gamers are not better tactician's then them because "Tau lists are evenly balanced"..
-Painting? WTF has that got to do with how Tau play?
-So many people on there high horses, its makes me despair
-Casual gamers crying that everything in Tau is OP and how its always the beardy gamers who play them
For me Tau are not OP I will agree here with the competitive crowd that anyone saying Tau are OP are whining, these people will also be the people who say that at least one Helldrake on the board at being a WAACTFG Power gamer, etc, etc
All army's have a strength and a weakness, the problem with which frustrates people is in the next paragraph..
What frustrates people about Tau is that their strength covers their weakness so efficiently that it gives people the Illusion that Tau are OP, and the Tau weakness is that they suck in close combat. Ok so now we (the players) have established the weakness we will try to exploit it (as any tactician would do).. If only it were that simple with the case of Tau..
Im going to put forth CSM as the opposing army (since its my main army and its a good example of how imbalanced the game is) and say CSM were to have repeat games against the classic Riptide gunline everyone keeps on talking about now in the CSM codex that codex in majority is a close combat army with bolters. ok so Im going to use a few squads of CSM with plasma guns, great some nice AP 2 fire and some Boltguns, next im going to use 20 Khorne Berserkers because that would be exploiting the weakness of the Tau: A big massive CC unit to rip the line apart. now Im going to use a Juggerlord with spawn (again exploiting the weakness of Tau: big meaty CC unit) next im going to use double Helldrakes (because if my opponents going to use triple Riptides im going to use Helldrakes) now im going to add in a pair of mauler fiends (again exploiting their weakness) and 2 Maulerfiends, now I have a nice themed force which could have a punch as well.
Deployment: Dawn of war, Mission: purge the Alien (because lets say how that is rolled).
Ok we roll off and the Tau player goes first. he fires the marker lights at my plasma squad in some ruins and manages to get 4 marker lights on each squad, ok nothing bads happening... until the Riptides start blazing their guns, all overcharge successfully and then bombard the units within the ruins both squads are in ruins at opposite edges so one two Riptides go for each squad whilst another goes for my Juggerlord unit in the centre.
Both Riptides don't scatter their blasts and are dead on target covering 7 guys each, the Tau player then takes the marker light counters off reducing my cover save to above a 6+ meaning I don't get a cover save. Tau player now gets 7 wounds, that is a total of 7 guys dead, no saves of any kind allowed, I then take a moral test and fall back 7-8"... Ok well that was strong but I will not be demoralised... next the Juggerlord takes hits from the riptide, and manages to get some serious damage on him (I do not know the Str. of the Overcharge blast so I don't know if it would instant death them all, but I will go on the assumption that it wont, hopefully giving this discussion fairness), now because of how I placed the unit (we will say there are 6 spawn and the Juggerlord) and how wound allocation works now there 2 Spawn dead without any saves as both middle parts of the each opponents deployment zones have no cover and the terrain is Symmetrical for fairness, he then fires at my Juggerlord unit again with his FW and because of weight of fire kills my Lord and another spawn then the missile sides from the Broadsides kill the rest of the spawn.. Ok so again heavy losses (Tau 4-0 through Slay the Warlord, First blood and the kill point for the Juggerlord) but I can live with it, plus I now know the units I need to take out ASAP which are the pathfinders, plus my Berserker's in the middle (as I would have no other place to put them if I wanted to get into assault quickly) have not been touched and both plasma squads roll to rally and fail running away another 7-8" moving off the board
Ok my first turn, I move my Berserker's up front head on to combat the gunline (since that is their role on the Battlefield) as well as the Maulerfiends to combat the pathfinders hiding among the ruins, I then run the Berserker's 3" as that is what I rolled and I did not have the range to shoot and then in the assault phase (seizing the chance and would know it would help me out) charge the FW behind the ADL as I was too far out for the pathfinders, but alas I fail my charge distance. Now tau players Turn two... I then start thinking and praying to the dark gods that my saves help me live..
Tau turn 2: 2 units of crisis suits enter the Battlefield with a PEN commander via DS landing on target, pathfinders again marker light away, this time at the Maulerfiends both get 2 marker lights on them each fiend, in the shooting phase the missile sides then fire using up the marker lights at the fiends glancing, reducing one to one HP and one to 2 HP... okay they are still alive yey ... the crisis suits then blow up both fiends through their shooting ... Oh.. then all riptides fire at the Berserker unit killing them all with overcharge blasts... within two turns the CSM player is tabled and cannot place his drakes on the board as the CSM player does not have any units on the board..
Ok so now the CSM player has to think how to beat the Tau with his CSM, he knows he will be using CC units since majority of his units are CC in the codex..
-Deep striking? Ok well CSM knows that there is lots of interceptor fire, so CSM player knows that its going to get lit up and probably die.
-Outflanking/getting stuff out of reserve close to the Tau players units? the amount of interceptor also prevents that.
-Allies? great so now that CSM player who only wanted CSM now has to buy another army to find ways to beat that list.
Now this has not been "mathammered" and this has not been a personal experience, but the simulation is deliberate, and whilst I know there will be "those people" who will comment saying that "people don't use KB" or "it wont scatter on target all the time" if your one of those people then you have clearly missed the point of the post beyond an epic scale. This is to show Tau players why people get frustrated with their army, the CSM player had only goy halfway to the board, with no chance of surviving, tell me would you like to be in the CSM players shoes? to get wiped off the board within two turns finding out that your units you want to choose had no chance of survival? this is what irks many people of the tau codex, they have essentially made Tau Codex: Team America: World Police, guns blazing without little or any thought required, blazing their guns as if they were having a BBQ, they cover there weakness that well..
On the other side of the Argument, I do feel empathy for the Tau players that don't get games as I had this problem sort of, as once I had proxied a Lifta-droppa battlewagon (which I was intending to buy when I had the cash) for an Apoc game (back before the Current IA: Apoc book when they could glance D6 times still in 6th) against my opponents who was a Necron opponent and a tau opponent (the Tau Codex was the current one people use today), now The Tau player was great, nothing wrong with the Tau, however the Necron players stated acting up on one occasion which put me off Apoc..
Basically I was using my Orks with a Stompa and a Skullhammer battle fortress (this was also the Apoc edition before the current one) it was around 600pts aside, but I digress, the Necron/Tau went first turn and managed to kill off a vindicator (giving them first blood) I had a LR reduced to 1 HP (as I was using Orks and CSM) from gauss fire and both super-heavies were reduced to 2-4 HP (remember that Stompas had 12 HP alongside the Skull hammer) with combined effort from both armies... Ok so heavy hitting but that's ok as its part of the game... Now my first turn, I glance my Necron opponents only Monolith once with my LR I then fired at the Monolith again with my Lifta-Droppa wagon, I hit it then drag it somewhere then glance it 3 more times wrecking it...
My Necron opponent then stated having a right go at me saying how broken and OP it was and unless I bought the appropriate model my opponent would not let me use it again, this moment took 20mins wasting game time and the Tau opponent left the gaming area to the store as he was sick of the arguing, I was just struck on the spot and just told my opponent that I liked the unit for its look and rules (as you Tau players would for your stuff), we did get back to the game in which the Necron Opponent killed the Lifta-droppa with some Crypteks (so it got one shotted off the board anyway?) and both super-heavies died, The Necron Opponent then makes a remark saying how the gauss weapons did not have to worry about super-heavies... this ticked me off real bad after all that whining he made about the wagon, but I kept it to myself.
I then have told myself that I would never play Apoc again, in which since then I have only played it once against a different opponent, I also have abandoned my Orks after that as I just felt crap for using them after that game, since then I occasionally use them. What I am trying to say to Tau players is that I do understand that it would be really annoying not getting games, after all you spent around £150 for those riptides and more for the rest, and I can understand on some level that it would be frustrating not being able to get games with the stuff you bought as was I with the Lifta-Droppa, but in all honesty without trying to sound harsh or snarky, but maybe you have to turn down that amp from 11 to maybe 7, by all means use stuff you want to use, but don't go all spammy with your best units unless you want tourney practice, in which case always alert your opponent before playing, if your playing just a normal game try to turn the volume down, and don't be surprised if someone does not want to play your list, after all you know how deadly your list is and so does your opponent, same here I wouldn't act or be surprised if my opponent refuse a game against me if I were to use Typhus plague zombies with triple Drakes. Maybe with the spare points you will find a new unit you will like (yeah it may not amount to the same power as the Riptide but it maybe one of those units that you may like just because the unit looks or feels on the battlefield is awesome for you just saying but trying different things has its own bonuses as well as the multiple units you used before hand ).
The point of the post was to show both sides (who have segregated themselves and now started attacking each other by the throat, in what appears to be violating rule 1 of Dakka which is to be polite from my perspective). each others argument without the sharpened stakes and keeping the civility of this discussion. If anyone starts to cherry pick my post to use to your arguing advantage then you have clearly missed the point of my post and therefore just showing how stuck up you are about your side of the argument.
The things that imbalancing does to us all in 40k eh?
I don't have a problem with Tau in general, I like the Riptide model and think it looks really cool my gripe is with the filthy elves... I mean Eldar and those rusty tin heads... I mean Necrons
Wow, that post was rather pointless, but you road in on your high horse anyway. You seem to care enough about this thread and pay enough attention to put up a block of dribble. I normally don't insult people's writing or posts like this, but wow, that was a poorly written mess. The points you attempted to make could have been made in a quarter of the text.
Now, I actually read it and wish I could get that precious minute back.
Though, I may have misunderstood, if your point was to bring levity and make the thread feel ridiculous, you did quite well.
I'm going to reiterate my points.
Tau aren't as OP as people think. The competitive scene is changing to show that, if you still think otherwise, pay more attention to the Meta. Tau need allies or end up as allies themselves and usually with Eldar. Eldar are far more frightening than Tau and vastly more powerful. Daemons are very strong, so are Space Marines, and CSM can still pull its weight.
So, anyone who is whining that Tau are OP, take a look at 6th Ed Eldar, then the history of 40k. It happens. It changes. Deal.
If you are a casual gamer, which there is nothing wrong with, stop whining. You play for fun and don't worry about optimizing, so don't worry if armies aren't perfectly balanced. Your problem is when you want to play a casual game against a competitive player.
I'm getting sick and tired of people complaining..."I'm a casual gamer and like to take fluffy lists.... but I hate that I can't beat competitive armies." If you've got a problem talk to your casual opponents.
Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.
Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.
Good for you, you proved my point. You have the hours needed to build an army, but no time to paint it despite the numerous ways to speed paint (airbrush, dipping, power washing) and making excuses for it. Where there is a will there is a way. I don't harp on anyone that is trying. But it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army.
And you have proved mine, maybe it takes the slightest bit of effort to paint an army but not if you want to paint the army WELL. Yes, a life outside of my hobby is an "excuse" you must be blessed to have so much free time on your hands. And for your information with all that I still have a partially painted army that is being finished up what I don't like is the label of "everyone is lazy and making excuses" as its a laughable comment. Saying taking care of your family or serving your country is an "excuse" is ridiculous, so kudos for you man for having ample free time.
Like gmaleron, I don't paint nearly as much as I used to. Too busy with work and fething these days. As for playing hard-to-counter lists, bring it. I don't mind getting tabled. I'll figure out how to stomp your list.
Seems like many people just used my thread to complain about other things but what the topic was......... not what I was going for lol. However, I think the problem stems from the fact that Tau get a lot of benefits in this edition with the rules that favor shooting armies, and since shooting is all they can do, thats what makes many players feel like that they are unbalanced. Now like I have said earlier, the Tau are not OP, however its no fun playing against an Army that has all of the answers for overwatch, skyfire, and ignoring cover all in one book for fairly cheap units. Many people at my store seeing Tau being tweaked in a few areas, as they are by far the army receiving the most complaints from people at the moment, as they have become a competitive players dream army in terms of smashing opponents, because they can do it so easily without even trying. Its not hard to make competitive list with Tau, if anything its the easiest thing to do because many Tau players just make a gunline and say come at me, which no one wants to play against as the rules make it way to one-sided.
My only beef or if you can even call it that is that I feel the marker-light spam should only be used in the regular shooting phase, and not be allowed in the skyfire or over watch. With so much marker light spamming these days, it makes it impossible for assaulting armies to get even close to opponents a lot of the time, and that I feel makes it really unbalanced. Whats the point of even having asaulting units anymore if they can't even assault turn 1? Sure many people (aka Tau and IG players) would say that would be too strong for armies such as BA's and Orks, but at least it brought variety to the game. Also, Eldar are a lot differnt then the Tau, as yes they can be strong but in the process, the trade-off is that Eldar have very few units on the field, as there models are extremely expensive, especially compared to the Tau, which is why I haven't had issues with Eldar as they have elite, but small forces that I can usually deal with.
The fact of the matter remains is that it's not the Tau who are too strong in themselves, but the rules for this edition of 40k make them extremely hard to fight, and its obvious the idiots at GWHQ didn't think things through and now they are having to deal with this issue. as the GW rep at my store has heard that they keep receiving complaints to how unbalanced the Tau book is, not necessary from the book itself, but from the rules that GW made in this edition buy strengthening the shooting phase and making assaulting null. Also, I think the issue is that far too many power gamers play Tau just because its the easiest army to spam certain units and one that allows them to utterly destroy people as 40k is all about shooting,
I will play Tau if they aren't bringing the usual gunline, Riptide and Broadside spam list with a hundred marker lights, but thats rare these days and I won't play in a game where I know it will be no fun and one where I will get frustrated in. I can admit it, Im the type of guy who voices his frustration but thats who I am, and though its not like Im complaining 24/7 about it, but I will get frustrated if I play an Army like that, and it takes the fun out of the game completely.
Is there a function difference between OP and undercosted? Because I feel that a lot of Tau units are undercosted for how the rules of 6th edition work. Basically, shooting troops need to be more expensive and assault troops need to be cheaper. In some cases, a LOT cheaper.
And I've said it several times that Eldar are even worse for sheer lethality and undercostedness. The Wave Serpent has finally stolen the title from the Vendetta.
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p
The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.
Martel732 wrote: Is there a function difference between OP and undercosted? Because I feel that a lot of Tau units are undercosted for how the rules of 6th edition work. Basically, shooting troops need to be more expensive and assault troops need to be cheaper. In some cases, a LOT cheaper.
And I've said it several times that Eldar are even worse for sheer lethality and undercostedness. The Wave Serpent has finally stolen the title from the Vendetta.
nothing the tau have is undercosted , they pay for everything . serpents are cheap either . What both those armies do is show bad design in other codex. Tau and eldar have great synergy between units , you can almost feel that both those codex were designed with armies in mind and not just randomly making up single units . But I guess when someone designes a faction you play for decades it is different then some random dude being forced to do copy pasta and add new units the sells department thinks new codex should have.
Zagman wrote: Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.
Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.
And there it is plain as day exalted and agreed.
Gamer 1: "Oh hai, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff over there though is looking for a game though and is gearing up for a tourney too"
G2: "Ah thanks, I just spoke to a guy over there who had a crazy themed Baharroth list he wanted to test, maybe you can try him"
G1: "Cool, thanks, have a good game"
And scene.
It takes like 30 seconds. The competitive player doesn't have to nerf his list, the casual player doesn't have to modify his list to compromise his vision and everyone wins. Know what kind of game you're bringing, learn what kind of game your opponent is after and if they match, play. If not, look for another opponent.
Whatever your style finding like minded gamers is the first step to getting the most fun from the game.
As I am a new player to 40K I have only played Tau once. And of all the games I have played that was by far the most uninteresting, boring game that I have played.
I know what Tau gunlines can do (i have their codex) and went into the game with my Orks expecting an uphill fight. But I wouldn't call it a fight at all, more like a slaughter.
So this last weekend the same Tau player asked for another game, and I declined. Two reasons; one, there was BA and IG armies available to fight and secondly,
it would not have been fun. I don't get alot of time to game and when I do, I would like to have fun and get to use the models I have painted and converted.
I did feel bad when the Tau player packed up and left. And from anecdotal evidence from those that I played that day, he was getting less and less games.
FYI, I lost both games to the BA and IG armies. But they were incredible games and my boyz actually got stuck in and my Warboss got to go on a rampage for a little bit before being crushed.
Zagman wrote: Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.
Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.
And there it is plain as day exalted and agreed.
Gamer 1: "Oh hai, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff over there though is looking for a game though and is gearing up for a tourney too"
G2: "Ah thanks, I just spoke to a guy over there who had a crazy themed Baharroth list he wanted to test, maybe you can try him"
G1: "Cool, thanks, have a good game"
And scene.
It takes like 30 seconds. The competitive player doesn't have to nerf his list, the casual player doesn't have to modify his list to compromise his vision and everyone wins. Know what kind of game you're bringing, learn what kind of game your opponent is after and if they match, play. If not, look for another opponent.
Whatever your style finding like minded gamers is the first step to getting the most fun from the game.
I think thats all good - but it can in fact lead to some players not getting games at all.............its a difficult one to call really.
Gamer 1: "Oh hey, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff is usually up for a comp game but is away and Dave and Max are just here for a bit of a laugh - playing a scenario game. Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him"
No good tournament player would want to play against someone he doesn't know , the chance that others will get wind about his tournament list would be too great .
You guys make it sound as if there were countless free tables standing around , no one playing and groups of people playing different systems walking around the store asking each other for games .
Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him
So a dude comes to a store , has to wait till someone playing w40k and then gets the news that maybe next week someone will be that that may be able to play him. If of course both of the have time , both of the dudes want to play against each ohter, the Jeff person isn't playing someone else , the tau X player can play next week and the tournament isn't next week . why not slap him with a wet towel , doesn't leave marks and hurts like hell , specialy if you put a stone in the towel .
As a competitive Gamer, I always play to win. However, given the fact that not everyone has the same experience i have, or has been collecting for as long as i have and therefore doesn't have as complete a collection as i do, or indeed isn't of the same mentality as me, it often behooves me to take a selection of army lists to a games night. whereupon i ask what kind of game they are expecting. if its just for fun, i'll take a fluffy army. if its they want a challenging, but not a cut-throat game, i'll take a different army. and if its a no-holds barred game i'll take an O'vesa star, or Taudar or whatever evil inconcievable nastiness i happen to be trying that particular week.
The fact is that my new group isn't the same as my old one, so i've had to adapt my style, and what expectations i have from a game to the local players, and the local meta. It was challenging at first, but its got easier over time. Adapting a list, isn't the same as not playing to the best of my ability. I will never go easy on anyone, except perhaps the new 'never played before' guy, and they are usually warned away from me (without justification).
For thoseof you who say tau are overpowered, and no fun to play against. well, part of the challenge of 40k is fighting different opponents, with different strategies, and pounding their armies into the ground. the way to learn how to beat tau isn't to refuse to play them, its to play them again, and again, and again until you work out what exactly works, and what doesn't. Throughout my gaming career, i've often faced armies that i just couldn't beat with whatever faction i was playing at the time. My strategy was, first to buy the army book, and second, to play that army again, and again and again until i'd figured out how to beat them, and then beaten them at least 50% of the time.
If you take the time to examine the Tau codex, you will find there are a few glaring weaknesses, and a a few key units that boost the effectiveness of the army as a whole. Take those units out, and you reduce the overall effectiveness of the army. If you allow the Tau to dictate the terms of the battle, which, in my experience, is what usually happens, and they will take you apart effortlessly. If you dictate the terms to the Tau, the game will go your way more often than not
^^^ You still don't get it. Tau are not fun to play against. First they do millimetre moves forever, then shoot forever and finally make the millimetre moves back, taking forever.
Of course there are some variations to this, but the majority seem to play that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unfortuntunately GW does not change any costs afterwards. I guess they don't see any problems.
Frankenberry wrote: Don't have a problem playing Tau here, there are the 'meta crew' that runs whatever is hot in tourneys so naturally there's the Eldar-Tau and Tau-Tau. It's annoying sometimes but I like the challenge, feels good to beat a Triple Riptide with a Foot-Guard list.
Exactly! I don't remember anyone giving tau players a break when the tau codex sucked so badly, and now those same people are trying to keep tau from using and enjoying their first decent codex ever.
Naw wrote: ^^^ You still don't get it. Tau are not fun to play against. First they do millimetre moves forever, then shoot forever and finally make the millimetre moves back, taking forever.
Of course there are some variations to this, but the majority seem to play that way.
Is it really the army then or the players who choose to play this way? An army is only a collection of models, rules and fluff. It's up to a player to choose how to express that on the table and people who play Tripleriptide or build lists that can be described as "unfun" are more the issue for choosing that form of expression over any other options.
I'm going to say other players aren't free of blame. I've seen one complaint on /tg/ that they should have to hide their army (use LOS blocking terrain) to close in against Tau, and they ignored advice about prioritizing Pathfinders first. That isn't the Tau player's fault, that's the fault of the opponent for refusing to adapt, learn and use terrain properly. Like wise asking if they're willing to tone it down because your tired of getting curbstomped, or asking them to give you feedback afterwards on things you did are valid ways to either seek the kind of game you want (and at this point I bet there are Tau players who are willing to oblige just so they can actually play), or learn how to beat Tau.
Regardless of how you choose to go about it, blaming a collection of models, rules and fluff won't solve things. Better communication, adaptation and learning how they really work instead of mashing the "OP" button will.
cvtuttle wrote:I remember when this post applied to Space Wolves, then Grey Knights, then CSM (w/Heldrakes), then Tau, then Eldar...
Just seems like it is cyclical. You are never going to learn to beat an army unless you play against it.
But it isn't. Grousing about a new codex is tradition. People who play the new codex not being able to play games... that's new. Dare I say, unique.
We're looking at something very different here, not merely more of the same.
It's not new. All of those armies I listed were, at one point, considered "win button" armies that required no skill to play.
He was saying Tau players being refused games was a new trend, not that the idea that certain armies are seen "win button" armies.
If that's the case it isn't true either. This happened with all of those armies (which was my original point). It was especially poignant with Grey Knights.
Zagman wrote: Casual players and Competitive players need to communicate their expectations and wants clearly. For most its a continuum, and if the gap between players is too wide problems arise. Find opponents who are looking for the same type of game you are.
Effective communication would solve all of our problems. Don't expect everyone else to play the same game you do.
And there it is plain as day exalted and agreed.
Gamer 1: "Oh hai, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff over there though is looking for a game though and is gearing up for a tourney too"
G2: "Ah thanks, I just spoke to a guy over there who had a crazy themed Baharroth list he wanted to test, maybe you can try him"
G1: "Cool, thanks, have a good game"
And scene.
It takes like 30 seconds. The competitive player doesn't have to nerf his list, the casual player doesn't have to modify his list to compromise his vision and everyone wins. Know what kind of game you're bringing, learn what kind of game your opponent is after and if they match, play. If not, look for another opponent.
Whatever your style finding like minded gamers is the first step to getting the most fun from the game.
That happens pretty often at my FLGS. Just last week I walked in and there were only 2 people aside from me. 1 wanted a tournament WAAC game, and I played the other last week (who refuses to play me because I play daemons, even though I lost to his eldar) So we just hung out and talked for a bit, then when other people came in, we started playing against the new arrivals. Ill probably be playing against a friends Tau tonight, then hopefully I might get to use my Necrons to rematch the eldar player.
Tbh, I'm really not surprised that Tau are struggling to find games.
My mate's broken me.... With me trying to beat him with my Chaos (who as much as the interweb say are useless, I at least usually get a decent go at a game).
But .... Tau..... just no. I've been getting tabled for just about a year.
Gunline, Deep Striking, LRers, Rhino Rush, Spawn Zergs... but I'm dead before I even get near him.
Maybe because I'm actually using chaos marines in my list and only 1 heldrake... maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
Anyway, I've tried every type of build I can think of, but I just can't get at him. I imagine my books not the only one with the same problem.
Also liked the post about why should I have to bring 210 cultists and 3 Heldrakes to win a game...
So they're getting no sympathy from me.... They need hit with the nerfbat back to 4th edition.
But for the next comp in Jan, my CSM are going Blue (Apparently you don't go back).
madtankbloke wrote: For thoseof you who say tau are overpowered, and no fun to play against. well, part of the challenge of 40k is fighting different opponents, with different strategies, and pounding their armies into the ground. the way to learn how to beat tau isn't to refuse to play them, its to play them again, and again, and again until you work out what exactly works, and what doesn't. Throughout my gaming career, i've often faced armies that i just couldn't beat with whatever faction i was playing at the time. My strategy was, first to buy the army book, and second, to play that army again, and again and again until i'd figured out how to beat them, and then beaten them at least 50% of the time.
If you take the time to examine the Tau codex, you will find there are a few glaring weaknesses, and a a few key units that boost the effectiveness of the army as a whole. Take those units out, and you reduce the overall effectiveness of the army. If you allow the Tau to dictate the terms of the battle, which, in my experience, is what usually happens, and they will take you apart effortlessly. If you dictate the terms to the Tau, the game will go your way more often than not
Very well put. Back in 2nd edition Eldar were considered overpowered and impossible to beat. Everyone said it and everyone believed it, but I never had a problem with them in any games. Why? Because I watched others play against them regularly. I bought the codex. I thought about what I saw. It was exactly the same thing. Back then if you let eldar control the flow of battle and let their units all do what they did best then they would stomp you into the ground. If you pulled all those highly specialized units out of their comfortable roles they fell quite easily. Tau are the same. Pay attention. Watch others play. Read the codex. Play them as often as you could to test out your theories. Eventually you will succeed against them. Let Tau do what they do best with impunity and you have no room to complain that you got shot to pieces. It is like the old joke with the doctor when the guy goes in and says, "Doc it hurts if I do this" and the doc replies, "Well don't do that." So if what you are doing allows Tau to walk all over your force then don't do that next time. If you play the same opponent again and their army is the same and yours is the same and you again try to use the same tactics that seriously failed you before , your chance of success is not that good. Yet this is what people do game in and game out. "The same failed tactics haven't worked in any game I've played against Tau so "obviously" Tau are over powered". Heaven forbid someone try to shake up and change their tactics when something doesn't work. One of my regular opponents plays Tau and I was thrilled to see the Tau book get the upgrade it deserved. That meant I had to figure out how to deal with a *real* threat from the tau finally...
nope, round here I eat tau for breakfast in friendly games/tournies, but even stuff i have trouble with i enjoy playing.
it is, in my opinion, on the guy who backed out as soon as he saw an army he couldnt deal with, as he is being unsporting in "pre-defeat" as it were. .
he offered to play, that it will be a tough/unwinnable game should remind him that he needs to adapt his meta a bit, take some more anti monstrous creature stuff.
I hear the same "complaints" about riptides as I hear about wraith knights, wraith lords, MY dreadknights, and NIDs...
my IG army has plenty of anti monstrous creature stuff to deal with rip tides.... is it as ROFLSTOMP rediculous as how much stuff my GK army has to do the same thing? no, but its not that far off considering my GK have to get into HTH and my IG can just leaf blower everything 1st turn. It is fairly easy to have enough weight of fire/ap2 to take down a riptide or three with my IG, as I have other monster spam and 2+ save stuff to deal with already.
heck I have lots of FLYING monster spam to deal with...
sometimes this game means laughing while your guys get exploded.
thats when you sweep up the gibs, and come back with some plasma/detta/las spam on your ig or increase your ability to deal with monsters as they are a big part of the meta now and are not going anywhere with nids/orks on the horizon.
Grumzimus wrote: Tbh, I'm really not surprised that Tau are struggling to find games.
My mate's broken me.... With me trying to beat him with my Chaos (who as much as the interweb say are useless, I at least usually get a decent go at a game).
But .... Tau..... just no. I've been getting tabled for just about a year.
Gunline, Deep Striking, LRers, Rhino Rush, Spawn Zergs... but I'm dead before I even get near him.
Maybe because I'm actually using chaos marines in my list and only 1 heldrake... maybe that's what I'm doing wrong.
Anyway, I've tried every type of build I can think of, but I just can't get at him. I imagine my books not the only one with the same problem.
Also liked the post about why should I have to bring 210 cultists and 3 Heldrakes to win a game...
So they're getting no sympathy from me.... They need hit with the nerfbat back to 4th edition.
But for the next comp in Jan, my CSM are going Blue (Apparently you don't go back).
If you can't beat them... become an ally force.
What's he running? Have you asked for advice about how you're playing? Have you asked to try switching armies for a game to see how he combats his Tau?
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p
The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.
....Really, Burn marker lights getting rid of the cover save by jink, and then go to town with Railguns.
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p
The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.
....Really, Burn marker lights getting rid of the cover save by jink, and then go to town with Railguns.
You my sir are a hero, I will agree that the Tau bring in a new meta of covering weaknesses, if all codices were like this I think less people would travel to other TT wargames, problem is quite frankly the Tau made a big power leap instead of new codex power creep (to you naysayers please grab the old BT codex, or DA codex....or really any out of date codex and try to play against the newer codices....idk how SoB do it).
By having a seriously powerful codex with the exception of our lack of anti-air options. :p
The only reason you don't see threads complaining about outflanking melta dominions is because so few people have to face them in the first place.
....Really, Burn marker lights getting rid of the cover save by jink, and then go to town with Railguns.
What jink?
Evading with flyers, it gives you jink, which at least according to my brb is a cover save
Makumba wrote: No good tournament player would want to play against someone he doesn't know , the chance that others will get wind about his tournament list would be too great .
You guys make it sound as if there were countless free tables standing around , no one playing and groups of people playing different systems walking around the store asking each other for games .
Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him
So a dude comes to a store , has to wait till someone playing w40k and then gets the news that maybe next week someone will be that that may be able to play him. If of course both of the have time , both of the dudes want to play against each ohter, the Jeff person isn't playing someone else , the tau X player can play next week and the tournament isn't next week . why not slap him with a wet towel , doesn't leave marks and hurts like hell , specialy if you put a stone in the towel .
er that was exactly the point I was making - its not a good thing...............
Wardragoon wrote: Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units
Um, Sisters don't have markerlights OR railguns. I was pointing out that the only weakness Sisters have is that they don't have any anti-air, and that the only reason you don't hear about how broken we are is because so few people get a chance to get crushed by us.
Wardragoon wrote: Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units
Um, Sisters don't have markerlights OR railguns. I was pointing out that the only weakness Sisters have is that they don't have any anti-air, and that the only reason you don't hear about how broken we are is because so few people get a chance to get crushed by us.
"Crushed" isn't a word I'd use, but yes, with so few of us about there aren't many who really know what to expect out of a game with the army.
I love the armchair assessments where every Tau build seems to have the perfect answer for every situation present in every list...
For the person who said the Tau will just hit that Flyer with Markerlights, boost the BS, and ignore its cover. The only Skyfire Marker-lights in the entire codex are on the Skyray and Sunshark Bomber. Otherwise those Markerlights are snapshotting. So, he'd need on average 18 Markerlights to get the three necessary to remove cover and boost BS by 1. That includes MarkOs and Drones, he can't give them Skyfire, they still snapshot even with the Drone Controller. A lovely vacuum scenario with no real table top bearing.
Riptides unsupported do not have a high damage output, but supported Riptides with either tons of Markerlight, a Buffcommander, or an allied Farseer can. Markerlights are generally easy to counter, pathfinders die easily, Iridium Marko is much tougher to counter without positioning or focus fire. Try and take out their support, or if you have an assault contingent try and sweep the Riptide. Riptide Spam is generally weak in Troops and supporting Units.
Gunline Tau has weaknesses. They are highly immobile and create seems in their army which can be exploited. Anonomous5 wrote a pretty good article on 3++ i believe about it. Exploit their weaknesses, use your premeasuring to your advantage, and attack the weak links in their army.
HYMP Broadsides have a limited range, exploit it.
Troops are the single greatest weakness in the Tau Codex. The Tau codex is also extremely weak against AV14. As much as people want to think the entire codex has interceptor, it doesn't, Drop Pod assault can cripple a Tau army if done correctly.
Tau can be beaten, and the meta is shifting. Eldar are hands down the top and they particularly wreck Tau on a consistent basis. In my experience peoples greatest problem is that do not understand the Tau Codex, how it plays, its weaknesses, and how to counter them. That generally takes time and a willingness to change. 40k is not static, you have to change and adapt with the times.
Learn, adapt, and stop complaining. And before you tell me you aren't a competitive player, then stop playing the competitive players.
Wardragoon wrote: Sorry, I wasnt refferencing the dominion bit, just the no antiflyer bit
EDIT: I don't even know what dominions are I assume they are SoB units
Um, Sisters don't have markerlights OR railguns. I was pointing out that the only weakness Sisters have is that they don't have any anti-air, and that the only reason you don't hear about how broken we are is because so few people get a chance to get crushed by us.
Oh wow.....I derped hardcore hahaha I was thinking tau for whatever reason, sorry
The Tau players around here who decide they just want to play line up and shoot don't get many games, whereas those that play missions do.
I beat one of these guys twice in one evening after he demanded a re-match after I beat him with my DE. Sure enough he then goes on about how DE is broken and not fair. Gues you cannot please them all ( oh and i didnt use venom spam either)
Ok a challenge to make the point one way or another. Tau players know the weaknesess of their army better than anyone. So here's the challenge:
1) Find a mate who has a 4/5k plus army that isn't tau, eldar, or whitescars (new element and probably the best build overall of the new dex).
2) Give each other a list of everything you own in said army (doesnt have to be wysiwyg) and swap dex's.
3) Make a 2k army from their list to counter your tau army.
4) Carry on insisting that you win so many more games because you are a better general and not because Tau are underpriced and can cover their own weaknesses effectively or that it has anything to do with being a shootyvarmy in the shootiest edition.
5) Play against the 2k list your mate has made with your army, best out of 3/5.
6) Repeat with different friends varying armies.
7) If successful, and still win many games, come back on this thread and tell the naysayers 'I told you so'.
8) If unsuccessful, admit tau are undercosted.
I realise a lot of people would not like others using their models btw. But it would be an effective experiment otherwise.
Poly Ranger wrote: Ok a challenge to make the point one way or another. Tau players know the weaknesess of their army better than anyone. So here's the challenge:
1) Find a mate who has a 4/5k plus army that isn't tau, eldar, or whitescars (new element and probably the best build overall of the new dex).
2) Give each other a list of everything you own in said army (doesnt have to be wysiwyg) and swap dex's.
3) Make a 2k army from their list to counter your tau army.
4) Carry on insisting that you win so many more games because you are a better general and not because Tau are underpriced and can cover their own weaknesses effectively or that it has anything to do with being a shootyvarmy in the shootiest edition.
5) Play against the 2k list your mate has made with your army, best out of 3/5.
6) Repeat with different friends varying armies.
7) If successful, and still win many games, come back on this thread and tell the naysayers 'I told you so'.
8) If unsuccessful, admit tau are undercosted.
I realise a lot of people would not like others using their models btw. But it would be an effective experiment otherwise.
Or swap armies for games and show them how they can beat your army with their stuff or even offer post game advice so they can improve. This doesn't need to be complex you know.
As an experiment you would need multiple trials to come to a correct conclusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But yes shorthand that would also work :-p. Then it blatently has nothing to do with the list building stage and all to do with the strategy and tactics used on the board when it comes to the tau builds... obviously.
Poly Ranger wrote: As an experiment you would need multiple trials to come to a correct conclusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But yes shorthand that would also work :-p. Then it blatently has nothing to do with the list building stage and all to do with the strategy and tactics used on the board when it comes to the tau builds... obviously.
Which was the point. Watching someone use your army to effectively take down the army you typically have issues with is a great way to learn new things.
And if you still win then it might be they don't know how to counter their army and it's just a netlist, or your army doesn't have the tools in it.
Ahhhh not the total point because if you can pick from a wide variety of units as well as the opponent, it will demonstrate which codex is easier to build powerful lists with, and demonstrate to what extent the game is won/not won at the list building stage. Thus also demonstating if one codex hold advantage over the others from the get go.
Otherwise the Tau player could say 'I beat you with my tau because I am the better general but I lost to you with your army because you built a poor list', they may even have a legitimate point, but it takes what I suggested to prove it.
Poly Ranger wrote: Ahhhh not the total point because if you can pick from a wide variety of units as well as the opponent, it will demonstrate which codex is easier to build powerful lists with, and demonstrate to what extent the game is won/not won at the list building stage. Thus also demonstating if one codex hold advantage over the others from the get go.
Otherwise the Tau player could say 'I beat you with my tau because I am the better general but I lost to you with your army because you built a poor list', they may even have a legitimate point, but it takes what I suggested to prove it.
Not every player has a huge berth of models though, which was the point that some players may lack the proper tools or not be built to handle the Tau list. That said, if that's the case then the Tau player getting a good curb-stomping might help them understand what the opposing side is feeling and be more sympathetic about it in the future. Not everyone can drop a couple hundred bucks just to get some stuff to handle an opponent's army after all.
No game is won at the list-building stage, some just have better handicaps than others.
I've played armies I knew I couldn't beat with the list I had simply to learn new things. Both about my army, and the opponents.
It's all about attitude. Taking a crap list against a tooled up tourney list can still be an enjoyable game. For me it boils down to willingness to try things you've never done before. Yes, I love winning and I certainly try to win every game I play. But I love learning things more.
The IG player in the OP wussed out. Instead of just backing out, maybe he could have tried a new deployment style. Or maybe changing his tactics, or maybe used a few units in ways he's never considered before - like sending guardsmen into close combat.
I play DE. This army requires a tremendous amount of patience and time to figure out how to use. A new DE player might lose 100 games before light bulbs start going off and they learn the real strengths of the army.
A couple months ago I played against a very good tournament player who not only used necrons, but was using FW models as well. I watched him wipe the floor with another good player then I asked him for a game. Most people shied away from his list. The following week I purposely sought him out to get another game in. Yes, I was creamed both times. But yes, I learned a lot and therefore totally enjoyed the games.
I guess I take a longer view of this. The only games I don't like are if the opponent is a dick or if I simply don't learn anything ( win or lose ). Take what you will from that.
I have no problems with fighting Tau.
Its allies that is the problem. Tau allying with Tau for 5 Riptides....or Allying with Eldar for psychic rerolling ignore covering shenanigans.
Allies are a plague on this game.
I think without them, Tau are just a good army, with allies, they become omgwtfbbqbacon broken
iGuy91 wrote: I have no problems with fighting Tau.
Its allies that is the problem. Tau allying with Tau for 5 Riptides....or Allying with Eldar for psychic rerolling ignore covering shenanigans.
Allies are a plague on this game.
I think without them, Tau are just a good army, with allies, they become omgwtfbbqbacon broken
Somehow I get the feeling allies will only be a 6e thing, when seventh drops you will have so many people with half an army, that GW will accidentally forget about allies forcing people to buy their 'Fine, Cheap models'
Swapping armies is certainly a thing to try too. A couple people did after our 2012 summer tournament where quite a few players had complaints about the Necrons. (Which I incidentally managed a draw against with SoB and would have won if I remembered to measure for Linebreaker.) The Orks which were decisively crushed in the tournament were a good enough list that the Necron player could smash his own army with them. Thing is, he really is a good player.
No, not just good players will have bought the "newest most OP army" - but many that start calculating combos from the first leaked pages will certainly feel drawn to it. We have a couple that can spend a lot of time calculating which unit type most likely gets to do things and which is best at that on average vs the armies others own.
Frankenberry wrote: Don't have a problem playing Tau here, there are the 'meta crew' that runs whatever is hot in tourneys so naturally there's the Eldar-Tau and Tau-Tau. It's annoying sometimes but I like the challenge, feels good to beat a Triple Riptide with a Foot-Guard list.
Exactly! I don't remember anyone giving tau players a break when the tau codex sucked so badly, and now those same people are trying to keep tau from using and enjoying their first decent codex ever.
Skriker
Just throwing this out there; The argument that "NOBODY GAVE ME A BREAK SO EF-EM" is a child's cry.
For starters, I don't think anyone out there has played every single gamer in the world. So the certainty can be dropped. And I can say this with certainty because I'm a terrible player and will play just about anything, if for any reason so I can get better and no never to charge 20 cultists at a monolith. XD
That aside though, I will outright refuse a game if it looks like the other player is just in it to win it, because chances are they will win. And they know that. And they plan that. So that they and only they can win and be winners. And if that is you, then you deserve to be ousted until you go to tournament and pay to play the way you want.
I play for fun and want games in accordance. If a tourny player says "Hey I need to tool this, will you help?" then the first thing I'm going to do is laugh and say "There wasn't anyone better?" and then the next thing I'll do is probably sit down and play a game thanks to communication and honesty.
As a Chaos player in 6th ed and just starting out, I KNOW I'm at the bottom of the barrel, so cutting players some slack isn't impossible for me or many others I'm sure. But that needs to come from the Tau and 'Crons as well. Even if a Tau player said "Sorry, I'm going to be drawing firing lines," I'd say, "Really? Can you at least TRY something different?" and then he charges one squad of pathfinders? FINE. Good enough. At least you tried and could try harder next time.
Turning into a rant. Leaving my two cents on the table.
I think 40K demonstrates very well how snowball effects happen. Seemingly minor changes in the 6th edition CRB combine with improves codices for lists that are shooting heavy and we get this mess.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Just throwing this out there; The argument that "NOBODY GAVE ME A BREAK SO EF-EM" is a child's cry.
As a Chaos player in 6th ed and just starting out, I KNOW I'm at the bottom of the barrel, so cutting players some slack isn't impossible for me or many others I'm sure. But that needs to come from the Tau and 'Crons as well. Even if a Tau player said "Sorry, I'm going to be drawing firing lines," I'd say, "Really? Can you at least TRY something different?" and then he charges one squad of pathfinders? FINE. Good enough. At least you tried and could try harder next time.
Turning into a rant. Leaving my two cents on the table.
It isn't a child's cry it is a fact. Tau have sucked since their inception. Their first codex was overpriced, underpowered and the only thing it had going for it was some minis with a cool new look. Their second codex was worse. They made everything even more overpriced, and turned the only HQ slot into a liability that in order to use its special abilities had to be visible by other units in the army and that made it vulnerable to enemy targeting. Its death could easily see almost the entire tau army run off the table. Yeah great books. Now they finally have a decent book that makes the Tau play as they have been described as being from the beginning and everyone is whining that they are actually capable now. It is just pathetic. Tau are the only army in 40k I have never built one of, but I can respect fairness to allow them to have their day. People will figure it out and eventually no one will freak out about it anymore. Besides if Tau generals are all playing the same boring gunlines it shouldn't be too hard for people to figure them out now should it. Of course a version of the rules that shifts the power level towards shooting is going to benefit and army that is 90% shooting focused. The real child's cry is people expecting Tau to nerf their own armies because their opponents don't want to have to do the leg work to learn how to defeat them.
Not every Tau or Necron player is a TFG and don't just run their army to be dicks to people. One of my regular opponents plays Tau and he is just thrilled to have a codex that is actually finally *capable* on the table and where most of the units in it have a decent role to play finally. My primary armies have been chaos marines from the get go back in the late 80s and when the two realm of chaos hardbacks came out. I still play them regularly and I don't complain or whine that the CSM codex is weak or at the bottom of the heap. I just play and I let my opponents play their armies as well.
Pretty much every edition of the game has one stand out "This army is impossible to beat!" codex out there and invariably that statement always proves to be wrong in the end.
That aside though, I will outright refuse a game if it looks like the other player is just in it to win it, because chances are they will win. And they know that. And they plan that. So that they and only they can win and be winners. And if that is you, then you deserve to be ousted until you go to tournament and pay to play the way you want.
Let me get this straight, if I play to win, you would refuse to play a game. Are you seriously suggesting that in order to play against you, your opponents should play to lose? and that the only way you will play someone is if you are guaranteed to win?
Both players have a vested interest in winning, whether its a competitive game, or a fluffy hello kitty game, you want to win. your attitude before during and after a game is what makes you a good, or bad, opponent, not what units you bring to the table. I know some cut-throat generals, who are a blast to play against. I also know some fluffy bunny not cometitive types who are just asking to be strangled.
I've played Tau since their inception, i've attended tournaments with a Tau army, ranked highly in quite a few of them with an underpowered codex. seen grins from opponents expecting an easy game only to wipe the floor with their army.
In my Mind, what defines a good player, from a bad one, isn't that you cry cheese every time your opponent uses a unit you don't like, or a combination of units you don't like, but that he finds a way to defeat that army. it sounds almost like you think just playing Tau ensures victory, and that's so far from the truth you wouldn't believe.
If you don't play to win, you won't, and if you don't even try to play against the current top dog codex, you won't beat them, ever.
I don't think he was being quite that literal madtankbloke, as I think what he meant was that he didn't want to play against the WAAC guy, regardless of which army they were playing.
I have guys at my club that refuse to take Wave Serpents etc in Eldar lists and other such examples and play so called 'fluffy' lists. But they are damned good players, that will give you a good game, because they play fluff but still field a balanced list. Outright refusing to play someone because they field a certain army is bs in my opinion. if you want to play a TAC list that is fluffy, fine, but don't take a fluffy list and then complain when it has gaping holes in it's structure.
But then, I come from an MTG background and have met guys that hate netdecks and only play their own decks and have fun and other guys that do the same, are arrogant about it and say that you suck because you play a card that is in a winning list. There will always be eejits like that in every LGS/hobby and those are the ones I try to avoid.
Eldar don't need wave serpents to be a very effective list. They need them to be the undisputed #1 list. I'm pretty certain that Eldar could field a list with 0 wave serpents and still have an advantage over any meq list.
Martel732 wrote: Eldar don't need wave serpents to be a very effective list. They need them to be the undisputed #1 list. I'm pretty certain that Eldar could field a list with 0 wave serpents and still have an advantage over any meq list.
And Tau don't need Riptides and Necrons don't need flyers, etc for them to win. My point was that balanced lists will always perform well, if you take time to consider your options and are willing to change. People who play 5 year old lists and still expect to win are being unrealistic!
Naw wrote: ^^^ You still don't get it. Tau are not fun to play against. First they do millimetre moves forever, then shoot forever and finally make the millimetre moves back, taking forever.
Of course there are some variations to this, but the majority seem to play that way.
Is it really the army then or the players who choose to play this way? An army is only a collection of models, rules and fluff. It's up to a player to choose how to express that on the table and people who play Tripleriptide or build lists that can be described as "unfun" are more the issue for choosing that form of expression over any other options.
I'm going to say other players aren't free of blame. I've seen one complaint on /tg/ that they should have to hide their army (use LOS blocking terrain) to close in against Tau, and they ignored advice about prioritizing Pathfinders first. That isn't the Tau player's fault, that's the fault of the opponent for refusing to adapt, learn and use terrain properly. Like wise asking if they're willing to tone it down because your tired of getting curbstomped, or asking them to give you feedback afterwards on things you did are valid ways to either seek the kind of game you want (and at this point I bet there are Tau players who are willing to oblige just so they can actually play), or learn how to beat Tau.
Regardless of how you choose to go about it, blaming a collection of models, rules and fluff won't solve things. Better communication, adaptation and learning how they really work instead of mashing the "OP" button will.
way too true
i've always pointed out that going for the pathfinders was a good way to casue 'problems' for Tau- after many massacres of space marines the players have begun to adapt. However I always set them up so they can be protected by the rest of my army so that is me countering their tactics
As I have said before Riptides maybe awesomsauce, but they don't really kill that much unless your markerlights are rather lucky and you do not scatter, then you get the whines of OP - with the pathfinder caveat i mentioned above... crisis suits on the other hand give way more bang-for-buck but are far more squishy.
That does not hide the fact that the assault phase jump move is very very useful, and is another cause for whines....
I am really looking forward to the impending January/February thread regarding Tyranids 'OP dominance' in the assault phase, and how people will be refusing games with tyranid players. Tau will soon be another standard gunline army, nothing to write home about. Or perhaps next year, Blood Angels will be the army that everyone complains about!
clively wrote: I've played armies I knew I couldn't beat with the list I had simply to learn new things. Both about my army, and the opponents.
It's all about attitude. Taking a crap list against a tooled up tourney list can still be an enjoyable game. For me it boils down to willingness to try things you've never done before. Yes, I love winning and I certainly try to win every game I play. But I love learning things more.
The IG player in the OP wussed out. Instead of just backing out, maybe he could have tried a new deployment style. Or maybe changing his tactics, or maybe used a few units in ways he's never considered before - like sending guardsmen into close combat.
I play DE. This army requires a tremendous amount of patience and time to figure out how to use. A new DE player might lose 100 games before light bulbs start going off and they learn the real strengths of the army.
A couple months ago I played against a very good tournament player who not only used necrons, but was using FW models as well. I watched him wipe the floor with another good player then I asked him for a game. Most people shied away from his list. The following week I purposely sought him out to get another game in. Yes, I was creamed both times. But yes, I learned a lot and therefore totally enjoyed the games.
I guess I take a longer view of this. The only games I don't like are if the opponent is a dick or if I simply don't learn anything ( win or lose ). Take what you will from that.
No offense dude but I wouldn't want to play in a game where I would know that I would get my teeth kicked in so I don't blame him for that. Besides, this Tau player is a A-Grade Power Gamer who only has fun if he totally demolishes his opponents, and he even told me that he prefers Apocalypse size games so he can get even more shenanigans to his advantage. He got mad once when he drew against my IG in a small point game and wouldn't shut up about it, and it was even worse when he lost to Tyranids due to poor rolling. Currently, here are 2x other Tau players at my store, both are also running the competitive, Riptide spam, and that gets old really quick.
That makes me think hes the typical band-wagon tau player, and trying to not pass off as one because he has 2 riptides instead of 3/4.
I play tau, and i usually feel the opposite when i completely crush my opponent with them. Same with orks but it doesnt happen as often with them lol. Bad rolls galore, or just a paper to rock matchup it doesnt matter either way i feel like a dick because he didnt stand a chance. But its a dice game so that happens sometimes. The only time i have ever gotten heated was when i went an entire game of rolling nothing but 1s and 2s (that is of course, after my 4/5th game and actually knew the rules i was being conned for. My first few games i didnt accomplish anything and i found out it was a rule mixup between 5th and 6th rules that was the reason, not me).
I'll never understand why people insist on outright destroying their opponent. No challenge no fun to me. Same goes for any game not just 40k. Yes i field 2 riptides but i also have an HBC on one of them and i also field Piranhas. Threw off my last opponent because hes never even SEEN piranhas lol.
Tau players fail to get games at my store simply because they always show up when everyone has to leave. Otherwise I'd always fight the blue skinned bastards.
I always play aginst Tau and the issue I run into is a Tau competitive list can be balanced and strong without spam
In order for my list to compete with that it needs to be a spam list like flying circus or screamerstar. But since its a friendly game its looked down upon. /endrant
I think thats all good - but it can in fact lead to some players not getting games at all.............its a difficult one to call really.
Gamer 1: "Oh hey, do you want to play a game?"
Gamer 2: "Sure, I have my Tau list I'm fine tuning for a tourney with me"
G1: "Ah, my list is a sort of silly World Eaters list that isn't very strong from a competitive viewpoint, neither of us will likely get very much out of such an unbalanced game, Jeff is usually up for a comp game but is away and Dave and Max are just here for a bit of a laugh - playing a scenario game. Sorry mate, maybe Jeff will be up next week and you can try him"
The guy can arrange a game for next week, get to know people, figure out the kind of lists people like to play. A gaming group is a community like any other, the more you put in the more you get out. Maybe he finds someone willing to play later in the night, maybe he just gets to know his fellow gamers, chats about the hobby, gives tips to newer players. Then next week he comes back because he's arranged games with Jeff and his regular opponent.
It's a social hobby, it's not like an online shooter lobby where you drop in, play, leave. You can approach a group like that but you're never gonna get full potential from it. For some people going to a club or FLGS is a huge investment of time, maybe they can make Vassal contacts at the club to get more games in.
Tau are currently a very strong dex and people know it. They can get a lot from a very simple point and click playstyle that counters many "casual" lists in a very hard and unengaging way for your opponent that is only made worse if the tables are a bit sparse terrain wise. As such people who want to run that kind of list need to make more effort to get to know their opponents as many folks wont want to play. Same as a silly weak themed list, just flipped, "competitive" players aren't gonna want to play such a weak list so they too must invest in their community more.
Invest in your 40k community, it'll pay dividends in the long run.
Just started 40K last weekend and chose Tau mainly because of the cool looking Fire Warriors and Battlesuits. Didn’t realise they’re seen as a power army and people have problems playing against them…..
Hoping this doesn’t hinder me in my first foray into 40K.
Only started it as our local GW is running a Winter Crusade where we have to start a brand new army either in WHFB or 40K and at end of Jan have a fully painted 1500pt army. If you do, go down to Warhammer World for free and spend the day battling each-others new armies.
I shouldn't worry about it. I think the current moaning about Tau has been greatly exaggerated.
A lot of people got used to Tau being rubbish in the previous two editions and are finding it hard to rethink their game plan when they have to play them now.
Perhaps it would be helpful for some of the people saying Tau are not OP to suggest good ways of dealing with Tau gunlines sitting behind Ageis, Riptide heavy and likely with Eldar psychic support.
Especially for those armies with older Codexes..........
Alot of people have trouble dealing with this and finding any kind of enjoyment in playing against it...............
Kilkrazy wrote: The Aegis defence line and Eldar are not part of the Tau codex, they are part of the overall game rules.
I suggested earlier in the thread to:
Play without allies and Aegis defence line.
Put more terrain on the table.
Play at a lower points level.
All those things would help any match-up to be more interesting.
Agreed, and that goes back to the work out stuff together but when a Tau player turns up with the Aegis and Eldar and wants a game with his competative list - what are the effective generic counters that people have discovered by playing against them that all Codexes can use?
I'm a longtime tau player, and I can honestly say that the new codex is pretty strong, but not that hard to beat. It requires you to tailor your list a bit, but the fundimental tau tactic still works: get in close. Be it riptides, broadsides or FW, get in close and they will lose. Supporting fire sucks to go up against, but if you plan it right the tau support won't have LOS, so they can't shoot. Another option is actually to tank shock them. They have to move out of the way because their grenades suck, and that cuts off LOS, increases the distance between units, and seriously panics most players. Are tank shocks considered assault? If they aren't, then I don't get supporting fire either. Also: multiassault! I can only support fire once, and I don't get to snap shot from a unit that has already done supporting fire.
Poly Ranger wrote: As an experiment you would need multiple trials to come to a correct conclusion.
You need at least 4 games to run a 2x2 (players, army) DOE with only 1 replicate on the corner points and no center points. That's holding the game type and deployment sequence constant. The conclusions of such a DOE would be minimal, trivial really.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Aegis defence line and Eldar are not part of the Tau codex, they are part of the overall game rules.
I suggested earlier in the thread to:
Play without allies and Aegis defence line.
Put more terrain on the table.
Play at a lower points level.
All those things would help any match-up to be more interesting.
Agreed, and that goes back to the work out stuff together but when a Tau player turns up with the Aegis and Eldar and wants a game with his competative list - what are the effective generic counters that people have discovered by playing against them that all Codexes can use?
I get your point.
40K arguably is a bit of a game of paper/scissors/stone. There are lots of codexes which have particular strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately the game is not balanced to the point that all codexes can always counter anything that any other codex might bring to the table.
When someone brings a tournament list, it is likely to be the kind of list that exploits a particular build, vulnerable to a specific counter but strong against non-specific lists.
In defence of Tau, I should imagine that IG with Eldar allies in a defence line probably present a similar kind of problem.
As my main army is Tyranid, I would think about using Spore Pods and Mawlocks to disrupt the defences. IG could use barrage artillery. SMs could use Land Raiders to bring assault forces up quickly.
Also, terrain that blocks the defence LoS is always helpful.
Mr Morden wrote: Perhaps it would be helpful for some of the people saying Tau are not OP to suggest good ways of dealing with Tau gunlines sitting behind Ageis, Riptide heavy and likely with Eldar psychic support.
Especially for those armies with older Codexes..........
Alot of people have trouble dealing with this and finding any kind of enjoyment in playing against it...............
One of the oldest codecies now is orks. I have seen orks decimate the new Tau with a few simple things. They charge in with multiple battle wagons and use them to disrupt the Tau line and cut off LoS between units. They then disgorge their contents of nobz and burna boyz and they stomp the isolated unit into the group. Battle wagons are AV14, so that helps a lot. Then while those units keep doing their thing of isolating and culling tau units and keeping the tau player busy the rest of the boyz rolled up in trukks and on foot to join the slaughter. Meanwhile their commandos were sneaking in and taking out the pathfinder teams that the tau player kept hidden in the back field. Quite an effective take down. If orks can do it with their codex anyone else should be able to come up with a tactic that works for them.
There is no one single solution that will work for everyone exactly the same way. You need to figure it out based on your codex. If you generally try to beat the tau the same way every time that fails horribly, take note of exactly what doesn't work and change it. Eventually you will find something that does work. Tank shock is a great tool. In objective based games ignore the suits and focus your fire on the tau troops to keep them from being able to claim any objectives. Stomp the pathfinders. Markerlights are one thing that make the tau hit so effectively. Remove those tools and the tau just aren't as great anymore. Isolate tau units from each other to mitigate the strength of their supporting fire abilities. Deep strike/flank assault to keep the gun line busy with close in threats while moving the bulk of your power closer. The key is that you need to figure out how to accomplish these tasks with your codex, or you speciifc army as not everyone has every unit from a codex and not everyone has the ability to have more than the 1500 points of units they need to play. If you don't have many options you will really need to get creative.
Hikaru-119 wrote: Tau players fail to get games at my store simply because they always show up when everyone has to leave. Otherwise I'd always fight the blue skinned bastards.
Correct: You mean you would fight them Blueberries . Plus, a friend showed me this that explains my reasons for calling them that perfectly lol.
Mr Morden wrote: Perhaps it would be helpful for some of the people saying Tau are not OP to suggest good ways of dealing with Tau gunlines sitting behind Ageis, Riptide heavy and likely with Eldar psychic support.
Especially for those armies with older Codexes..........
Alot of people have trouble dealing with this and finding any kind of enjoyment in playing against it...............
One of the oldest codecies now is orks. I have seen orks decimate the new Tau with a few simple things. They charge in with multiple battle wagons and use them to disrupt the Tau line and cut off LoS between units. They then disgorge their contents of nobz and burna boyz and they stomp the isolated unit into the group. Battle wagons are AV14, so that helps a lot. Then while those units keep doing their thing of isolating and culling tau units and keeping the tau player busy the rest of the boyz rolled up in trukks and on foot to join the slaughter. Meanwhile their commandos were sneaking in and taking out the pathfinder teams that the tau player kept hidden in the back field. Quite an effective take down. If orks can do it with their codex anyone else should be able to come up with a tactic that works for them.
There is no one single solution that will work for everyone exactly the same way. You need to figure it out based on your codex. If you generally try to beat the tau the same way every time that fails horribly, take note of exactly what doesn't work and change it. Eventually you will find something that does work. Tank shock is a great tool. In objective based games ignore the suits and focus your fire on the tau troops to keep them from being able to claim any objectives. Stomp the pathfinders. Markerlights are one thing that make the tau hit so effectively. Remove those tools and the tau just aren't as great anymore. Isolate tau units from each other to mitigate the strength of their supporting fire abilities. Deep strike/flank assault to keep the gun line busy with close in threats while moving the bulk of your power closer. The key is that you need to figure out how to accomplish these tasks with your codex, or you speciifc army as not everyone has every unit from a codex and not everyone has the ability to have more than the 1500 points of units they need to play. If you don't have many options you will really need to get creative.
Skriker
exactly.. hve an exalt...
plenty of great strats for dealing with tau... they are just the "gun lines" gun line... tau armies are generally immobile turtles, super strong when you take them on, in their turf, with all their synergized abilities all at once, but separate them, or take out a key unit, and they start to fall apart.
for objective missions, they have to stick a portion of their force out of the turtle zone, which you can use your superior manuverability (you do HAVE manuverability right? thats a key thing to have in a TAC list)
heck, I tend to outshoot tau at 20-24" with my GK's, flank them, and rarely even need to charge into CC to deal with anything but a riptide or two or three...
my IG out range tau, usually have more disposable scoring bodies too.
my orks just mob them, tau cannot cause enought HITS to take out my green tide.
gotta change along with the meta,
riptides are not WAAC, there are DK, WK's, nids, demons, ect and LOTS of monsters in the meta now, gotta adapt to that.
As an IG player I like the rules as I felt that melee has always been overpowered considering that table widths are actually really short. Playing by the old rules you would really need to play on a table about 6 feet long or more to balance out the power differences between melee and ranged.
So far my mechanized IG still makes swiss cheese out of tau as you can just load veterans up in chimeras and pop out shotguns and melta guns or whatever.
Also, in terms of just a fun fluffy army I to change up my imperial guard and have exterminators and flak cannons and auto cannon weapons teams. Defiantly not the most effective build, but I have a huge affinty for the auto cannon which got better with the new rules.
Majsharan wrote: As an IG player I like the rules as I felt that melee has always been overpowered considering that table widths are actually really short. Playing by the old rules you would really need to play on a table about 6 feet long or more to balance out the power differences between melee and ranged.
So far my mechanized IG still makes swiss cheese out of tau as you can just load veterans up in chimeras and pop out shotguns and melta guns or whatever.
Also, in terms of just a fun fluffy army I to change up my imperial guard and have exterminators and flak cannons and auto cannon weapons teams. Defiantly not the most effective build, but I have a huge affinty for the auto cannon which got better with the new rules.
Know the feeling mate. I currently run a Mech Guard list at the moment and so far I have done really well against the Tau, wiith my only loss against them coming in an apocalypse game that was way one-sided as this particular Tau player set the game up to his advantage from the start, aka complete tool and power gamer attitued . However, overall Im currently 2-1-1 against him, as he has a hard time dealing with all of my Chimeras who usually pop smoke turn 1x and then just take it from there. Eradicators are great against Tau for the sole purpose of ignoring cover in this edition for sure.
Kilkrazy wrote: I shouldn't worry about it. I think the current moaning about Tau has been greatly exaggerated.
A lot of people got used to Tau being rubbish in the previous two editions and are finding it hard to rethink their game plan when they have to play them now.
Tau were rubbish in 4th? They were the JSJ-area terrain kings...
I don't mind Tau at all. With so many bad players in my area using them and copying internet lists, it's actually quite funny when I beat them.
*Of course, I admit that I'm not winning against Tau because of superior playing skills. I'm winning because some Tau players here have no idea how to use their internet army correctly and I take advantage of it if they're the ones to challenge me to a game against their "unbeatable" 2 Riptides.
So to answer the OP, no- Tau find plenty of games here.
I am terrified to play against a competent Tau player. I have not yet. I am smart enough to research their codex and abilities just like I do for every enemy army, and I am always breathing a sigh of relief when I see a player forget to Markerlight up, for example. Of course I don't say anything. I'm already a very lenient player in that I will let people go back and do Blessings and what-not if they forgot, or move inconsequential units after they've started shooting. Sorry bro. No going back to Markerlight my one Rhino, or Ahriman's unit if you're Nova-charging that Riptide.
Kilkrazy wrote: I shouldn't worry about it. I think the current moaning about Tau has been greatly exaggerated.
A lot of people got used to Tau being rubbish in the previous two editions and are finding it hard to rethink their game plan when they have to play them now.
Tau were rubbish in 4th? They were the JSJ-area terrain kings...
That in itself doesn't win games, and was not immune to counter moves.
Compare and contrast with Eldar tanks with holofield.
Kilkrazy wrote: I shouldn't worry about it. I think the current moaning about Tau has been greatly exaggerated.
A lot of people got used to Tau being rubbish in the previous two editions and are finding it hard to rethink their game plan when they have to play them now.
Tau were rubbish in 4th? They were the JSJ-area terrain kings...
That in itself doesn't win games, and was not immune to counter moves.
Compare and contrast with Eldar tanks with holofield.
Except Tau were the secondary, with Fish of Fury helping them out in winning games and keeping their gunlines protected.
You point at JSJ as if it is an unassailable game winning manoeuvre. Every army has some kind of special thing going for it.
Fish of Fury wasn't that good either, and it didn't protect gun lines because you used FoF with a mobile army.
Tau was fairly rubbish for the first half of 4th edition, with a thin 3rd edition codex. They improved after their 4th edition codex came out, but they were never top tier.
Mr Morden wrote: Perhaps it would be helpful for some of the people saying Tau are not OP to suggest good ways of dealing with Tau gunlines sitting behind Ageis, Riptide heavy and likely with Eldar psychic support.
Especially for those armies with older Codexes..........
Alot of people have trouble dealing with this and finding any kind of enjoyment in playing against it...............
One of the oldest codecies now is orks. I have seen orks decimate the new Tau with a few simple things. They charge in with multiple battle wagons and use them to disrupt the Tau line and cut off LoS between units. They then disgorge their contents of nobz and burna boyz and they stomp the isolated unit into the group. Battle wagons are AV14, so that helps a lot. Then while those units keep doing their thing of isolating and culling tau units and keeping the tau player busy the rest of the boyz rolled up in trukks and on foot to join the slaughter. Meanwhile their commandos were sneaking in and taking out the pathfinder teams that the tau player kept hidden in the back field. Quite an effective take down. If orks can do it with their codex anyone else should be able to come up with a tactic that works for them.
There is no one single solution that will work for everyone exactly the same way. You need to figure it out based on your codex. If you generally try to beat the tau the same way every time that fails horribly, take note of exactly what doesn't work and change it. Eventually you will find something that does work. Tank shock is a great tool. In objective based games ignore the suits and focus your fire on the tau troops to keep them from being able to claim any objectives. Stomp the pathfinders. Markerlights are one thing that make the tau hit so effectively. Remove those tools and the tau just aren't as great anymore. Isolate tau units from each other to mitigate the strength of their supporting fire abilities. Deep strike/flank assault to keep the gun line busy with close in threats while moving the bulk of your power closer. The key is that you need to figure out how to accomplish these tasks with your codex, or you speciifc army as not everyone has every unit from a codex and not everyone has the ability to have more than the 1500 points of units they need to play. If you don't have many options you will really need to get creative.
Skriker
exactly.. hve an exalt...
Lol looks exactly like a copy of my response to another tau moan threads that I posted 3 days ago:
"If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.
Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:
- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.
You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS"
Soooo, I've been busy the last few days, and so have you guys. XD I started to read from First Unread and then noticed the couple posts quoted out of mine. I'd like to clarify some points and smooth over some wounds.
I believe, first and foremost, that unless you are playing official status (and this comes from a background in Yu-gi-Oh as a Tournament class player -still got my decks, less go. Haven't rare-hunted in a while. +__+) in a tournament setting or in some fashion that dictates some overall global score, that people and myself play for fun. Otherwise, if it's no fun, you are probably not playing. Now, is it fun to Win? Yes. Is it fun to lose? Depends on how, it turns out. For example, in First Person Shooters, my favorite tactic is the Kamikaze. Will I win? Probably not. Will I have fun? ABSOLUTELY. Making an enemy player win with a score of 1 to -100 is hilarious sometimes. (Battlefield 3? C4 attacks anyone? I KNOW IT'S NOT JUST ME OUT THERE DRIVING THEIR MOTORCYCLES INTO TANKS!)
So there is that staple position.
From there, the whole childs cry thing was limited specifically to the scope of that statement itself, and in no way reflected on the Tau as a race, but rather some of the players (or perhaps a lot of players, as it turns out. Enough players? Let's go with that) who take that claim. Look, I haven't had the greatest of life and I'm not going to say it's been the hardest either, but because it has been difficult, does that mean I go about making everyone else's life difficult too? No. Because I'm a grown up and I deal with my problems better than that. At least I hope I do. At least I can say I deal with them more creatively ( like suicide-ing on your corpse 100 times).
Hope that cleared some stuff up. Going back to reading now. I hope I'm not being a dick. Oh, and instead of using examples from other games, here are some WH40K examples.
-Charging your only squad of cultists (other troop is "Doppleganger" Marines) into Swarmlord
-Watching a Helbrute go Berzerk on some IG -Blocking a Land Raiders path with some Deep Struck Nurglings. ...Things like that. <<
Yeah, I would agree that tau haven't ever been rubbish. At least, not since 4th edition. MSM WAS a lot more powerful with old area terrain, and there was less stuff with indirect fire back in the day as well. Also, most codices were a LOT less shooty two editions ago.
The only problem was when everyone caught up with their shooting towards the end of 5th. This reduced the number of different kinds of tau builds down to roughly 1, but that one list wasn't all that bad either. TL S10 Ap1 en masse wasn't exactly a breeze to play against.
The only people who thought tau were bad were tau players, who fawned over themselves to see who could badmouth their codex in the strongest possible language. It took them getting a stupid codex to bring tau players up to the point of "pretty well balanced, but could still be a bit stronger" that most tau players seem to feel.
Really, it seems to be a matter of everyone but tau players agreeing on what the power level of tau is like, and tau players still bemoaning how their long-martyred codex could still be stronger.
And THAT'S the one thing that's been true since 4th ed...
Ailaros wrote: This reduced the number of different kinds of tau builds down to roughly 1, but that one list wasn't all that bad either.
You realize this is the definition of a bad army, right? No army at the time was so awful that you couldn't come up with even a single build that would have a chance of winning, bad armies were the ones that were severely limited in what options they could use and weren't all that competitive even when they took their few good ones.
The only people who thought tau were bad were tau players, who fawned over themselves to see who could badmouth their codex in the strongest possible language.
Lol? Virtually everyone agreed that Tau in late 5th were solidly in the bottom tier of armies, and competitive tournaments confirmed this pretty indisputably.
It took them getting a stupid codex to bring tau players up to the point of "pretty well balanced, but could still be a bit stronger" that most tau players seem to feel.
You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think any meaningful number of Tau players are asking for a stronger codex overall. The biggest complaints about the codex are the poor internal balance and the over-use of the magic laser pointer gimmick.
The only people who thought tau were bad were tau players, who fawned over themselves to see who could badmouth their codex in the strongest possible language.
Lol? Virtually everyone agreed that Tau in late 5th were solidly in the bottom tier of armies, and competitive tournaments confirmed this pretty indisputably.
Funny, but reading through certain threads seem to give the same opinion of the situation right now.
"Meta just does not yet know how to cope with Tau."
"Riptides aren't that good, kill their markerlights and they do nothing."
"Just get in CC with Tau and they will automatically lose."
I do not believe Tau in 5th were the bottom tier, but then again our group never played truly optimized lists. We rarely if ever use the same list twice. Of course our Tau player already then spent most of his time thinking about his army's movement to the extent that we often joked about introducing a chess clock. In tournaments such meticulous moving could not be done.
It took them getting a stupid codex to bring tau players up to the point of "pretty well balanced, but could still be a bit stronger" that most tau players seem to feel.
You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think any meaningful number of Tau players are asking for a stronger codex overall. The biggest complaints about the codex are the poor internal balance and the over-use of the magic laser pointer gimmick.
That, and certain combos even without the markerlight support. Luckily I face only one Riptide but that HBC makes a mess of my daemon troops. We need to improve our scenery. Oh and notify the Tau player that his Riptide only moves 6" in movement phase?
Naw wrote: Funny, but reading through certain threads seem to give the same opinion of the situation right now.
Not really, those quotes are just saying that Tau aren't as overpowered as some people claim. That's very different from 5th, where pretty much everyone agreed that Tau were a very weak army.
I do not believe Tau in 5th were the bottom tier, but then again our group never played truly optimized lists.
Yeah, that's how it was. Tau could compete as long as nobody else brought optimized lists that could exploit their weaknesses, but that kind of environment isn't the real game. When people didn't deliberately weaken their own armies to give the Tau players a chance it was much less even.
Tier isn’t a defined term, of course, but most people reckon it to be three divisions -- top, middle and bottom.
There are 15 armies in the game, so roughly five are in each tier. In that scheme I am astonished to find people who think there were five armies worse than Tau in 5th edition.
IMO Necrons were probably the bottom army. Tau got progressively worse as newer and better codexes were published, and they weren’t a fresh book at the start. I would certainly put Tau in the bottom five if not the bottom three over the whole life of the edition.
Returning to 6th edition, though, if your local Tau player is a cheat that is a reflection on him, not on the codex.
Kilkrazy wrote: Tier isn’t a defined term, of course, but most people reckon it to be three divisions -- top, middle and bottom.
There are 15 armies in the game, so roughly five are in each tier. In that scheme I am astonished to find people who think there were five armies worse than Tau in 5th edition.
IMO Necrons were probably the bottom army. Tau got progressively worse as newer and better codexes were published, and they weren’t a fresh book at the start. I would certainly put Tau in the bottom five if not the bottom three over the whole life of the edition.
Returning to 6th edition, though, if your local Tau player is a cheat that is a reflection on him, not on the codex.
Well if I had to pick five armies that were worse, Daemonhunters was pretty close till it's update, necrons had a very specific build (till update). And that's kinda...it.
They actually weren't half-bad in 500 pts. or 1000 pts. games where few opponents could throw too much target saturation at them.
At 1500 and higher, Tau armies usually had all their "useful" stuff maxed out and were simply adding pointless bling to Crisis Suits. They also had absolutely nothing to deal with reserves, drop-pods, null-deployment lists, etc.., xept (relatively) pricey bubble-wrap set-ups (pretty much the exact opposite of today ). Tau in 5th Edition played "all right" if you played 40K "old school" 3rd/4th Edition style, e.g. both sides set up on their side of the table and move towards each other. However, 5th Edition was the heyday of things like all-Drop Pod, Elder-dual-Autarch-all-Reserve, full-outflanking-bike-army, etc.. and all that kind of shenanigans.
The most interesting part of this thread to me, is that there is a huge faction of people stating that Riptides are overpowered. It is stated that running three or more Riptides is a blatant power move. If you look in other threads, there is a huge faction of people who take the stance that Forgeworld is "official" and just as balanced as standard units for use in 40k in spite of there being zero mention of it in the 6th edition rulebook.
If they don't tweak the Forgeworld Riptide rules much, a Tau player utilizing Forgeworld would now be able to bring 6 Riptides to the table in a standard FOC army.
If you look in other threads, there is a huge faction of people who take the stance that Forgeworld is "official" and just as balanced as standard units for use in 40k in spite of there being zero mention of it in the 6th edition rulebook.
They don't state FAQs, supplements, and white dwarf is legal either, but people still use those, also not a good idea to bring it to other threads.
If they don't tweak the Forgeworld Riptide rules much, a Tau player utilizing Forgeworld would now be able to bring 6 Riptides to the table in a standard FOC army
Yeah, those are experimental rules though, not really balanced yet.
anchorbine wrote: The most interesting part of this thread to me, is that there is a huge faction of people stating that Riptides are overpowered. It is stated that running three or more Riptides is a blatant power move. If you look in other threads, there is a huge faction of people who take the stance that Forgeworld is "official" and just as balanced as standard units for use in 40k in spite of there being zero mention of it in the 6th edition rulebook.
If they don't tweak the Forgeworld Riptide rules much, a Tau player utilizing Forgeworld would now be able to bring 6 Riptides to the table in a standard FOC army.
Ouch.
Always boils down to the same thing. There are many different options in the game and for this game. But that doesn't mean all options should be used at all times. There are specific games where it's ok to use 3 Riptides. There are specific games where it is ok to use Forge World. In 90% of all 40K games you play, most likely neither will be ok.
Just because and option exists "legally" doesn't give you any right to use it unconditionally at all times, especially if it is to the detriment of your opponent's enjoyment of the game.
anchorbine wrote: The most interesting part of this thread to me, is that there is a huge faction of people stating that Riptides are overpowered. It is stated that running three or more Riptides is a blatant power move. If you look in other threads, there is a huge faction of people who take the stance that Forgeworld is "official" and just as balanced as standard units for use in 40k in spite of there being zero mention of it in the 6th edition rulebook.
If they don't tweak the Forgeworld Riptide rules much, a Tau player utilizing Forgeworld would now be able to bring 6 Riptides to the table in a standard FOC army.
Ouch.
Always boils down to the same thing. There are many different options in the game and for this game. But that doesn't mean all options should be used at all times. There are specific games where it's ok to use 3 Riptides. There are specific games where it is ok to use Forge World. In 90% of all 40K games you play, most likely neither will be ok.
Just because and option exists "legally" doesn't give you any right to use it unconditionally at all times, especially if it is to the detriment of your opponent's enjoyment of the game.
Yep, saw this coming, even though forgeworld is to the betterment of the game rather then a detriment, where 90%+ games I play involve forgeworld.
anchorbine wrote: The most interesting part of this thread to me, is that there is a huge faction of people stating that Riptides are overpowered. It is stated that running three or more Riptides is a blatant power move. If you look in other threads, there is a huge faction of people who take the stance that Forgeworld is "official" and just as balanced as standard units for use in 40k in spite of there being zero mention of it in the 6th edition rulebook.
If they don't tweak the Forgeworld Riptide rules much, a Tau player utilizing Forgeworld would now be able to bring 6 Riptides to the table in a standard FOC army.
Ouch.
Always boils down to the same thing. There are many different options in the game and for this game. But that doesn't mean all options should be used at all times. There are specific games where it's ok to use 3 Riptides. There are specific games where it is ok to use Forge World. In 90% of all 40K games you play, most likely neither will be ok.
Just because and option exists "legally" doesn't give you any right to use it unconditionally at all times, especially if it is to the detriment of your opponent's enjoyment of the game.
Yep, saw this coming, even though forgeworld is to the betterment of the game rather then a detriment, where 90%+ games I play involve forgeworld.
If that is how your group plays and they are ok with it, why not?
Hell, I play 90% of my games with whacky house-rules of some kind or another, and that is most definitely to the betterment of the game
Nah, Daemons were definitely the bottom of the list for a long while.
Actually Daemons had a good list for a while with Crusher/Fiend/Fateweaver, if just very, very specific..And then GK came and they dropped to the bottom.
anchorbine wrote: The most interesting part of this thread to me, is that there is a huge faction of people stating that Riptides are overpowered. It is stated that running three or more Riptides is a blatant power move. If you look in other threads, there is a huge faction of people who take the stance that Forgeworld is "official" and just as balanced as standard units for use in 40k in spite of there being zero mention of it in the 6th edition rulebook.
If they don't tweak the Forgeworld Riptide rules much, a Tau player utilizing Forgeworld would now be able to bring 6 Riptides to the table in a standard FOC army.
Ouch.
"Official" is frankly bad word choice. Of course Forge World is "official", it's a Games Workshop brand. The argument is if it's "legal" for play outside of house rules making it so which some of us believe so as it operates off of Page 108's permission to alter the army list, which is also what Codex Supplements use to be legal options for play.
Either way, if you're playing a game for fun (not for tournament) and your opponent wants to plonk down 3+ Riptides it might be time to take them aside and explain that it's not fun to play against that and maybe point out that under the Spirit of the Game it's not really what the game is meant for either.
And honestly I don't really get the purpose of the spam. Tau have a lot of neat stuff and only plopping Riptides down seems rather silly when they have a wide list of options to choose from.
Nah, Daemons were definitely the bottom of the list for a long while.
Actually Daemons had a good list for a while with Crusher/Fiend/Fateweaver, if just very, very specific..And then GK came and they dropped to the bottom.
Oh I know of that list, but it was unreliable (could end up rolling and getting the wrong half of your army early one), you had to deep strike (hope you don't mishap!) and everytime Weaver takes a wound you have to test to see if he'll flee making him a rather weak lynchpin for the army.
And one good list doesn't save a codex as we all know.
Returning to 6th edition, though, if your local Tau player is a cheat that is a reflection on him, not on the codex.
He definitely is not a cheat. Playing both 5th and 6th can cause confusion.
We usually play at 1000 or 1250, only lately have we gone to 1500. I want 1850, but real life gets in the way.
He is very thoughtful when it comes to his movement or assault moves. If he can space his models 2" apart he will do exactly that. Like I said, we need a chess clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post: About Riptides, if they were not "that good", then why are all Tau players trying to fit as many of them as possible to their lists?
In my own opinion it all comes down to the skill of the player. Ive played people who riptide spam whatever you call it and won using nids blood angels and even chaos space marines. I've played vendetta lists n people who have played since rouge trader and won. Ive beat necrons new space marines space wolves and all that and I have found that its my skill against their skill that comes down to it... I don't get why people are so upset I guess they really hate loosing. I mean come on I lost my first year of playing 40k almost and it's because I used op units but no strategy that all it is. Man up people please if you don't want to lose then 40k isn't for you because you can't always win
I feel sorry for the older tau players. To go through the ruff seasons, finally get your moment in the sun and then have people get after you for being the new cream of the crop.
Rotary wrote: I feel sorry for the older tau players. To go through the ruff seasons, finally get your moment in the sun and then have people get after you for being the new cream of the crop.
BoLS actually summed up that kind of thing well (for once):
If it were merely a matter of people being annoyed at people spamming their best units, then there wouldn't be a problem here. Some people have been choosing to do this since 40k began. It's nothing new. The fact that tau players are having problems getting games is a sign of something much different and worse from the ordinary.
And tau were definitely not at the bottom of the heap, and now have moved up to the middle of the pack. That's just as bizarre as the idea that 5th ed was the great edition of assault, and in 6th ed, it's now balanced. Tau was certainly not top tier, but it definitely wasn't the worst army - only tau players ever thought that. Everyone else pretty consistently put SoB, BT, oldcrons, nids and, before their 5th ed codex, orks or DE at the bottom. Arguments based on nothing but historical revisionism aren't that convincing.
In 5th ed, the problem with the tau codex was that there was more or less exactly one build for them. That one build had the best small arm in the game, mass special weapons drops on tough, MSM units (including non-gets-hot plasma), and they were the only army in the game that could spam S10 Ap1. They may have only had one build, but it wasn't a bad build.
They were a mid-tier one-trick army before. Now they have a codex that's so bad and that has changed (or, more, completed the change) of the game towards gunlines so much that people aren't playing them anymore.
People have cried cheese, and on the other side have been reassured by that army's players in the past. What's going on now is different, and for good reasons.
Massive crisis suit deathstar that telports 24" with allies, doesnt scatter with farsight, gets stealth and shrouded because farsight is banging shadowsun (wtf?) Oh yeah, also ignores cover and twin linked with everything. And probably ignores your armour save as well. Have fun pulling models because i play codex win. Lolol
Rant over. Sorry i just had to play against this and all i can say is i wish i kept my tau army from 5 years ago.
In 5th ed, the problem with the tau codex was that there was more or less exactly one build for them. That one build had the best small arm in the game, mass special weapons drops on tough, MSM units (including non-gets-hot plasma), and they were the only army in the game that could spam S10 Ap1. They may have only had one build, but it wasn't a bad build.
The problem was that outflanking armies practically ruined that build so hard that rankings didn't matter.
Ork Kommando with SC kommando? Tied up Broadsides or crisis suits.
Genestealer List? Yeah good luck with that.
Drop Pods? Sternguard made a mockery of your vehicles and broadsides.
Then you had lists that could actually outfight and outshoot tau at times, like Space Wolves, Necrons, IG, and Grey Knights, and even Dark Eldar.
The build was at best, okay, at worst it dropped to the bot.
As a side thought, what does it say about a person who says "I can't get a game. What's wrong with everyone?"
Perhaps this is one of those super-ambiguous statements that anyone can make about anything, especially when I start comparing examples taken from my own life and times where I thought everyone was ganging up on me. However, before I even begin to act on that impulse, I typically have to hyper-analyze the situation first to make sure it really isn't just me being stupid and not realizing the pink elephant in the middle of the room everyone else sees. And this does a lot to a persons psychology after a while, especially if you find yourself on the losing end all the time.
We can put this to real world examples and come up with staggering revelations, however keeping this to WH40K and Human Behavior, I'd say it's a lot more likely that a Tau player is doing something to piss off the players that don't want to play with them at that point. Even if we're talking displacement from a player who actually is a jerk with Tau and the average player who is still strategizing their army for maximum (personal) effectiveness.
So for example, you play Tau and can't get a game. Why? Probably something to do with your line up. So then at that point, if you really wanted to play that badly, wouldn't you come up with a compromise of some kind to ensure that you could play?
I don't know why this doesn't seem second nature or common sense for a lot of people.
Ex: I play Chaos and I know players don't want to see 3 Heldrakes eating up their troop choices. So maybe I play 1 Heldrake instead? Or no Heldrake if it's really that much of a problem? I know it's not because the rest of my army is pretty useless, but at least I'm willing to meet my players half-way there.
We can put this to real world examples and come up with staggering revelations, however keeping this to WH40K and Human Behavior, I'd say it's a lot more likely that a Tau player is doing something to piss off the players that don't want to play with them at that point. Even if we're talking displacement from a player who actually is a jerk with Tau and the average player who is still strategizing their army for maximum (personal) effectiveness.
So for example, you play Tau and can't get a game. Why? Probably something to do with your line up. So then at that point, if you really wanted to play that badly, wouldn't you come up with a compromise of some kind to ensure that you could play?
I don't know why this doesn't seem second nature or common sense for a lot of people.
Ex: I play Chaos and I know players don't want to see 3 Heldrakes eating up their troop choices. So maybe I play 1 Heldrake instead? Or no Heldrake if it's really that much of a problem? I know it's not because the rest of my army is pretty useless, but at least I'm willing to meet my players half-way there.
This particular issue is where the incessant whining comes from but that being said....
From my personal experience there are several key points that keep on turning up:
1. gunlines are boring
2. riptides are OP
3. players trying to impose 'their version' of Tau on the users of the army without think that a) their army list might not be the best to take them on, and b) making a huge assumption that the Tau players has headed for cheese.
4. Tau players 'should tone it down' in some cases
Warning personal opinion alert
Points 3 & 4 are highly subjective and to be frank I find it disgusting that someone would try and force someone to play an army in the fashion that they do not want to for their own egotistical reasons. At my club at least it is unheard of, folks get abused for using cheese but we all accept that we all have a right to use whatever list we like with the caveat of being trolled if things whiff a bit.... that is not to say in any way my club is full of WAAC players we are no way near that . We all like a good game regardless of the result or the trolling that happens in between, especially when particular sets of dice are used
'Bent dice' is a regular accusation especially when I fire Tau overwatch
On point 2:
Riptides are nowhere near broke really, they are highly survivable indeed but their firepower is mediocre at best, unless Mr markerlight is involved then they become 'OP' in their own way. I suspect they are overused (guilty your honour ) when really one would be sufficient to give support to the crisis suits which, in my games have killed far more units than I would care to mention. Yet again no one complains until markerlights ensure a dead squad per turn if you are lucky, oh and then you bugger off out of range until next turn leading to more whining
On point 1:
lots of armies do it these days, but as Tau are good at it, it becomes the main culprit for that reason. Notwithstanding the commonality of space marine armies which can get rather badly splattered by Tau firepower but I digress...
feel free to disagree these are again my honest humble opinions....
I play Chaos and I know players don't want to see 3 Heldrakes eating up their troop choices. So maybe I play 1 Heldrake instead? Or no Heldrake if it's really that much of a problem? I know it's not because the rest of my army is pretty useless, but at least I'm willing to meet my players half-way there.
But then you can play only 1160pts games , or do you buy extra units you wouldn't normaly want just so that other people can pick the army you should play in a way they like ? And considering different people may find different things bad , you would have to buy a lot of models just to keep them happy and even then they may just not want to play , because they don't like you , don't have time or don't like to play against your army no matter what you bought. Few people can start with a 3k points army , just so that other may pick 1500 armies they want to play against. And knowing human nature they will pick stuff they can own the easiest .
On a side note, if you cant beat tau, take Iron Clads. Most people struggle against av13 these days. Riptides have a hard time with them, and with interceptor they could easily waste the fusion gun shot (you shouldn't be dumb enough to deploy it within 9").
Rotary wrote: I feel sorry for the older tau players. To go through the ruff seasons, finally get your moment in the sun and then have people get after you for being the new cream of the crop.
Of course nobody feels sorry for marine players who have always been bad and get hate for no reason throughout the entire history of the game.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: So then at that point, if you really wanted to play that badly, wouldn't you come up with a compromise of some kind to ensure that you could play?
Because I'd rather go do something else than give my opponent veto power over my army. If the local TFGs are so terrified of losing or having to improve their lists that they refuse to play, well, there are plenty of other things to do that don't involve interacting with people like that.
In my local meta most people realize that Tau isnt that crazy strong..
The codex isnt much stronger/weaker than eldar/daemons/necrons and presumably when nids and orks come out there will be 4-5 top codex's which in my mind is pretty decent balance.
Seer council, flying circus, riptide spam, cron air...everyone has spamming cheesy lists that SUCK to play against without a tournament list and mindset.
jakl277 wrote: In my local meta most people realize that Tau isnt that crazy strong..
The codex isnt much stronger/weaker than eldar/daemons/necrons and presumably when nids and orks come out there will be 4-5 top codex's which in my mind is pretty decent balance.
Seer council, flying circus, riptide spam, cron air...everyone has spamming cheesy lists that SUCK to play against without a tournament list and mindset.
The potential issue there is that the list is not strong against certain lists - but presumably is still crazy strong against those not listed? I am not sure its a pretty decent balance to have 4-5 codexes that are equal and the rest are not?
There is a wider discussion about play styles and opponents and fitting it with each other - Tournament play should be fairly clear and same with "friendly games" - its the grey area in the middle that cause issue I think - one persons generic "fun" list being horrible XXXX Spam list to another.
Yesterday, I went to my gaming club and out of the 4 40k games I saw, there was 4 Tau vs Tau. Okay, one of them was a Farsight vs Tau .
So yeah, from my part: if I decided that I would never play against Tau, I wouldn't have any opponents left. Out of the 24 active 40k players, we have ~19 Tau (plus 3 Eldar, 1 Greycron and 1 SoB)...
Marines can get five ASM in a pod with two flamers for 80 pts I think for anti-pathfinder duty, but I'm not sure how good this unit is for general usage. Marines can't escape the truth that 3+ armor and T4 are their cornerstones, and 3+ armor and T4 sucks now. Okay, paying what GW charges for 3+ and T4 armor sucks.
gossipmeng wrote: Lol looks exactly like a copy of my response to another tau moan threads that I posted 3 days ago:
"If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.
Not a copy. I did see your "if it was me" post in the other thread, but also had actually seen something similar to it in practice once already. Tau player thought he had an easy win because it was against orks, but it wasn't. Lost and painfully too, especially after the smug pregame attitude of why the opponent was bothering with orks since the Tau were just going to own them. That ork player definitely did their homework. Also the kind of ork army that laughed at the usual anti-ork flamer spam as well. That ork player had a good day that day and showed that orks are still viable as an army in 6th. Sure the orks could have lost big time if they had just done the usual walk the hordes up under withering fire regardless approach on the Tau. Sadly I get to see other people play 40k a lot more often than I get to play it myself these days. :(
My usual opponent who plays Tau doesn't consider them unbeatable by any means. He knows how perfectly everything has to work for them to succeed. What makes Tau so scary is that people are just walking in and letting the Tau dictate how the battle plays out and giving the Tau that control pretty much is what let's them win handily.
), when a Tau player came into the store looking for a game. Now seeing us just finishing, he imminently asked if once of us wanted to play and the 
I bought one because it looks cool and I like having a big impressive centerpiece to display my army around. You all can say what you'd like on that subject, but I mostly play 
I actually move up the board when it is needed, using an ageis line is asking for an 
the players have begun to adapt. However I always set them up so they can be protected by the rest of my army so that is me countering their tactics 
. However, overall Im currently 2-1-1 against him, as he has a hard time dealing with all of my Chimeras who usually pop smoke turn 1x and then just take it from there. Eradicators are great against Tau for the sole purpose of ignoring cover in this edition for sure.
