The latest mid-year report by GW created a lengthy discussion here and on many other boards with players discussing what's wrong with GW and what they think needs to be done to fix what they believe is a broken ship. I realize the internet is the location of the vocal minority, where people happy with something rarely go to voice their enthusiasm, but the disgruntled let their voice be heard, however, in all the noise there lies the truth.
All over this board are posters who claim to have abandoned using GW products, games, systems, or whatever. My question for those of you that no longer play or have significantly reduced your involvement in the hobby, what would it take to get you back into the fold?
If GW announced tommorow that they would slash prices across the board, would you be back? How much of a price cut would it take?
What if prices stayed the same but GW started fully explaining their price increases with clarity instead of arbitrary increases?
What about if prices stayed they same but they announced a complete overhaul of the rules with more focus on internal and external balance amongst the rules in each system?
Is there anything that would get you back into the fold? Or are you too far gone to come back?
I'm going to jump in before the 400 'price cut' comments and say this (as an Australian who would be paying Australian prices no less):
They don't need to slash prices left and right. Rules and starter sets need s price cut but that's it.
They need to raise the value (ie quality) of their products to match the price. Right now I can pay $96 for a finecrap bloodthirster from the 90s that is just an awful model, or I can pay $90ish bucks and get an amazing resin deamon model from Meirce (or any one of a few companies actually).
There are these sorts of things all across GWs line, if they want to make the best models in the world, and charge people for the best models in the world, that's great but make models better than the ones your competitors are selling, especially if they are selling them for 40% of the price you are.
In addition to that the rules need a complete overhaul. Make them tight, make them balanced and make them usable in competitive, pick up games instead of just assuming everyone will be playing with a close group of friends in their basement and capable of talking through any problems that crop up like reasonable people.
'4+ it if you don't know' does not grant free reign to print before you proof read, it is not a feature to be celebrated, it does not make your game flawless. It is a fallback to clean up a few outlying problems before they are FAQed, nothing more.
As I haven't bought anything GW in 2 years other than a single box of deathwing knights and a codex from my FLGS when the new DA codex came out, I'd have to say a price cut, AS WELL as bringing market prices in line with the rest of North America.
The Canadian dollar is almost on par with the US, but we have a 20% markup on everything. As such I have to get a 20% discount at my FLGS just to bring the prices on par to US MRSP prices, which is crazy.
And that's just to buy their product. It would be another thing entirely to get me to step into there shops again to buy my plastic crack
A price cut would be nice, say about 10% across the board, but it alone would not be enough, nor would it be necessary. What would really get me back into it would be for them to embrace the internet, attempt to engage their customers and FLGS's, and basically stop treating their lifeblood as if they're their enemy.
I also think that a scaled-down, less expensive paperback version of the rulebooks and codecies would be nice; $120 just for the rules is a bitter pill to swallow. Better playtesting would also go a long way. I'm not expecting a super-tight, uber-balanced tournament based ruleset, but I'd like it if they could make it so that every army had multiple viable options when it comes to building lists, and would stand a fair chance against other lists.
I'm also not terribly fond of the "all random, all the time!" thing they seem to have going on. Like a Daemon vs. Tyranids game would have, according to the rules:
Random scenarios with random deployment and random objectives and random terrain with random effects, the objectives would be worth random values and also have random effects and the Daemons would have their random warp storm table and units randomly show up from reserve while the Tyranids have random synapse effects and everything charges random distances and all the psykers get random powers.
Obviously I weighted this a bit by choosing two armies with the most egregious random elements, but there's still a bit more than I'd like, even in something like Dark Eldar vs. Space Marines.
Some randomness is obviously necessary and exciting. A decent amount of random elements can make things interesting. But I think it's all a bit much, even in WHFB, let alone 40K.
With WHFB I'm also not a fan of the fact that it's balanced around such gargantuan armies, and magic in 8th, in the few games I played, seemed to be the absolute deciding factor. I'd like to see magic toned down without being completely gutted, and I'd like to see the game scale better at smaller sizes.
If the value of quality sculpts is what I pay now and strictly higher price is for better sculpts, I would have to continue paying those prices.
If I accept a price reduction in GW sculpts and get back an inferior product, I would not want to buy from them.
That being said, prices are inflated due to costs in manufacturing and making a return on the product's margins for profit, so I would have to see what the real value of making a model really costs before I ask them to slash prices.
Fair pricing across markets and currencies would go a long way in my book.
Our cousins in Australia, NZ, and Canada are paying far more for a product despite their currencies being on par with the dollar. Even when you factor in shipping, it still doesn't explain why some items are 50% more expensive.
Although rules balances would be nice, I really think there is a loud vocal minority complaining about this, and the majority don't really care. If they really wanted to balance rules and make the game more appealing to a larger audience, they would have to dumb it down pretty hard in my opinion. As it is, it's almost impossible to grasp the game initially without someone explaining it to you step by step, even if you read the rules cover to cover. Hating on individual army rules at this point comes from hyper competitive players that want to beat face everytime they play.
He puts them all in a nice padded box, charges me less than $3.00 CAD for shipping.
GW? $25-30... depends. Unless you spend over $75.00 but that's just like saying here buy one get one other cheap thing for free, since the unit you came for will cost you nearly $75 with shipping anyways...
Shipping from the states? Same thing, some shops online want $15!? While another shop charges me $8.00 for the whole lot?
I used to play 40K but have basically given up on GW due to price, rules, and competition.
Price: I was content with the 2009 pricing when I was able to get a stormraven for around $55USD, a squad of 5 Deach Company for $27CAD. Those were my acceptable pricing. I really don't think I am being unfair because the competition is paying similiar prices. Take Warmachine for example, their large models costs $100US, but the game only allows to field 1 anyway, where as Stormravens I can field as much as 3 of them. I'm willing to pay $160 for 3, but not $300 for 3.
Rules: I hate the current rules in terms of both price and rules balance. especially the current ebooks and dataslates. There is just simply too many booksets to carry around for 1 game. Not to mention how expensive they are (cypher rules at $17.99CAD???)
Competition: Other wargame companies are simply too tempting compaired to GW, they offer either better rules or cheaper models or even both. GW is pushing a 1-click tyranids army for $2000CAD? with that kind of money I can buy entire model range of a competition wargame, proboly with better and more balanced rules as well.
riburn3 wrote: what would it take to get you back into the fold?
I have a fairly long post written about this, but for legal reasons I'm waiting to see if Letters to Penthouse publishes it first.
If GW announced tommorow that they would slash prices across the board, would you be back? How much of a price cut would it take?
About 50%. Seriously, it was a struggle paying $30 for 20 guys back in the day. GW is going to have to hit WGF pricing for me to come back.
What if prices stayed the same but GW started fully explaining their price increases with clarity instead of arbitrary increases?
I don't care about BS excuses. And I would never believe them.
What about if prices stayed they same but they announced a complete overhaul of the rules with more focus on internal and external balance amongst the rules in each system?
I used to buy GW products to model and paint. Rules wouldn't matter at all. Even so, most guys I know are fine using free rules from the internet if they can buy quality plastic models at good prices... So: no slashy, no cashy.
Is there anything that would get you back into the fold? Or are you too far gone to come back?
50% would do it.
Or the return of Battlefleet Gothic at 2002 prices, minus 20% for hurt feelings.
Yes. Price slash across the board. Better models too.
Anectdotal story: Back in '01 I got the 1st LOTR boxed set for Christmas. When my Mother in law found out what it had cost (about $60 USD at the time) she flipped her lid over how expensive it was. (she does not play wargames of any kind)
Moral: When someone from the outside looks at GW prices its no wonder fewer people start playing their games. Yes, there's inflation and all that but the Hobbit boxed set was more than double the price of the first boxed set. Stop the gouge!
If their plastics were about 1/3 of cost they are now it would seem more realistic IMHO.
For me it would be 2 different issues related to prices:
1. Lower them in general about 25% overall.
2. Stop pricing items out according to how many they expect a person to buy. A predator tank does not cost an extra $13 in plastic to make instead of a Rhino, and Sternguard plastics don't cost 2.5x as much to make as tactical marines.
I don't play competitively at all so rules I generally don't care about. I'd like to see some story progression(how long can it be the year 2522?) and see armies all actually get updated before new editions roll out like we did in 6th for WFB.
I'll also accept the resignation of Tom Kirby, Allen Merrit, and Matt Ward.
Alkasyn wrote: I could stomach the prices if the game was fun to play. It isn't.
Fair enough, but that's incredibly subjective. Some people define fun in the hobby as modeling and painting. Some define it as spending a casual afternoon with friends playing the game in a relaxed setting, and some define it as steamrolling everyone with the most cheesed out list possible. I look at a lot of the Tyranid whining on the message boards here and elsewhere and see people upset that they can't make a cheesed out list to counter other cheesed out lists. At the casual level where most of the player base exists, these are hardly issues.
Talking specifically about 40K as I don't play WHFB.
I have enough figures that I don't need to buy more -- perhaps a couple of new edition models like the Riptide but basically I don't need or want to buy whole armies. A price cut on the model kits wouldn't motivate me. I am much more concerned about the price of the rules and codexes, and the quality of the rules.
I have several editions of rules and codexes as I have been playing since late 2004. If I want to replace them and move on to 6th edition, I can get the softback rulebook fairly cheaply, but the codexes are more than twice the cost they used to be, and are larger and heavier to carry around. I also expect that 7th edition will invalidate the current books to some degree in one or two years. Although I got the 6th edition softback, I haven't bought any codexes, even my top armies -- Tau and Tyranids -- because they are so expensive.
What I want to see is a good softback range of codexes to match the rules only rulebook from the starter set. I don't need the fluff and painting guides. They just add useless bulk and price.
GW went a little bit in that direction with the small hardback rulebook. Unfortunately they upped the price to match the old fullsize hardback, but I would stomach it if they did similar codexes at say £20 each, that were nicely done, the same size as the rulebook and with ribbons, etc. So I would compromise on a set of books in hardback at a price point in between the old large format softback stuff and the new hardbacks.
The other thing is rules quality. 40K was never that tight or good a game. Some of the new ideas like Allies plainly don't work, and I don't think the size of the game really accommodates all the stuff like flyers, fortresses and so on. I would like a good, tight ruleset containing about the same content as 4th edition (Killteam for skirmishes, the standard game without superheavies, formations, etc, and a campaign system.) The add-on rules should be published as add-on books like Cities of Death, Apocalypse and so on, and not made part of the core system.
On top of that I would like the rules just to be better written -- clearer and tighter. I'm not that concerned about changing things like UGOIGO. If I want to play a sophisticated tactical wargame there are plenty out there.
I haven't gotten anything directly from GW in 4+ years due to outrageous in store prices. However with that in mind I still play six armies currently the smallest of which is 1k points wise, and four of them are horde armies. The majority of those models I obtained though trade forums, buying them at 40% or higher off traditional prices, it may have taken sometime but I saved a lot of money in the process. Anyway a price cut would be nice but I have no beef with WHFB rules and I tire greatly with those who incessantly criticize GW rules/balance as a whole because really its 40k that is really desiring of that level of criticize.
riburn3 wrote: Fair pricing across markets and currencies would go a long way in my book.
Our cousins in Australia, NZ, and Canada are paying far more for a product despite their currencies being on par with the dollar. Even when you factor in shipping, it still doesn't explain why some items are 50% more expensive.
Same in Europe. Models cost about 9% more on the mainland than in the UK, despite being sold on the same continent and under the same Union. When Maelstrom Games still existed, they were giving up to 30% discounts on orders, and considering that was from the UK price when the currency exchanges were favorable the discount was about 50% total of what I would've paid when buying from a local GW store. I bought two entire 2000 point 'one click' armies with those prices.
The other thing is rules quality. 40K was never that tight or good a game. Some of the new ideas like Allies plainly don't work, and I don't think the size of the game really accommodates all the stuff like flyers, fortresses and so on. I would like a good, tight ruleset containing about the same content as 4th edition (Killteam for skirmishes, the standard game without superheavies, formations, etc, and a campaign system.) The add-on rules should be published as add-on books like Cities of Death, Apocalypse and so on, and not made part of the core system.
I think this is also pretty subjective. Rules like allies and add ons work perfectly fine outside of the most hyper-competitive scenes, and I would imagine the vast majority of us don't roll in those circles. What ruins it is when several players find a broken combo and they plaster it all across the internet. The last serious business tournament I played in last year was a copy and paste of army lists from internet forums. When GW was still running the Grand Tournament system, you wouldn't see an identical list out there. I think the internet has been great for promoting the hobby, but it also has created a darker demon where one persons army list is wrong, and they need to put this, that, and the other in their list, causing lots of players to feel that many of their units are useless, even if they never ever plan to play in a tournament. Now when I play in tournaments in my city (which are very casual), I go out of my way to make far feteched lists with supposedly weak units because it's that much more rewarding to win with something the internet has deemed to be non competitive.
After years of pause from GW I recently got back into completing my armies.
Prices is common denominator but since I have no rush I can spend as little as 30ish per month and still have fun with some gw minis. I mean look at arachnarok that thing is going to take ages to complete…. If you spend 100ish per month then you will have more than enough to keep you very busy and depending on armies you can finish one in 6 - 8 months.
Alkasyn wrote: I could stomach the prices if the game was fun to play. It isn't.
Fair enough, but that's incredibly subjective. Some people define fun in the hobby as modeling and painting. Some define it as spending a casual afternoon with friends playing the game in a relaxed setting, and some define it as steamrolling everyone with the most cheesed out list possible. I look at a lot of the Tyranid whining on the message boards here and elsewhere and see people upset that they can't make a cheesed out list to counter other cheesed out lists. At the casual level where most of the player base exists, these are hardly issues.
Piffle.
Whether somebody buys and plays a game is inherently subjective. Period. End stop. The only objective reason not to buy and play a game is if it is unavailable.
I do not have fun = I do not buy the game. Why would I? - I play games for fun, and the current editions are not games that I think are fun.
I think a game is badly balanced and tested = I do not play the game. If I think that a game is badly balanced/Badly playtested then I am less interested - I want my skill at tactics be the determining factor, not that I was smart enough to pick the uber army of the current edition.
I do not like the miniatures = I do not buy the miniatures. I buy miniatures because I think painting miniature is fun and the painted miniatures look good. If the miniature isn't fun to paint, and looks like crap then I won't buy it. I could (and have) gone on for hours about how I hate many (but by no means all) of the current GW miniatures.
I think that everything is over priced = I do not buy anything. GW has been in this position for three years - the last time I bought anything by GW was terrain at 50% off when a store went under because of a messy divorce. Last year I bought nothing by GW - but my game spending was higher than it has ever been. (Damn you Kickstarter! Damn you!)
If I am going to buy from GW then I need to enjoy the rules, I need to like the models, and they need to be worth the money. At this point GW is three strikes and out.
All the things that I liked about GW are things of the past - I liked the archive models: Gone. I liked the poseable plastic models: Gone. I liked the Specialist Games: Gone.
They would pretty much need to start over from zero.
And, since then, I have gone to other, and in my opinion, better games.
Is that subjective?
Damn skippy it is!
So, honestly? I do not think it at all likely that GW will ever get me back.
@NAVARRO
And that's all well and good for some people but the rest of us wonder why we should spend $100 when the same amount of equal quality models would only cost $45 from one of GWs competitors.
They'd have to make a game that looked fun or interesting to play, and start making models that I actually wanted to own (there are probably a few, I don't really follow their releases, but there isn't a single army they make that I'd buy on 'army aesthetics' alone).
Quite simply GW have to become as customer focused as their competition.Or they will continue to loose sales volumes.
Rule sets are supposed to be instructions to play a game.So professional proof reading and editing go a long way to improve the perceived quality .
Releasing JUST rules and army lists (fluff free,) as free down loads allows easy up dates , (every 6 months or so.)And open up the forums again to allow two way communication between GW staff and customers.
As many have said get price equity across all areas of the world.And adjust prices and/ or game size to drop entry costs to a comparative level.
(Just to point out the total cost of manufacturing GW product is only 24% of retail price.What bumps the price up is the B&M retail chain which eats up over 60% of GWs gross profit!So a re structured retail focus would allow significant price cuts.)
I haven't abandoned gw, but I have diversified. I now play dust tactics, warmachine and infinity, with a copy of x-wing on the horizon. I can't undiversify, and that means gw get maybe 20% of my hobby spend, whereas before, they got 100%
For example, the Cadian models aren't really that great, and the Catachan infantry box is hideous. I'd barely pay WGF costs for them.
But their Nobs box, or their lootas? Or even their regular boyz box? All are great kits that show what GW is capable of when it gets its gak together. Even a minor price decrease of 10-20% would make me a lot more likely to buy them. The only reason I'm not buying them to be honest is because I told myself I wouldn't buy anything from GW until they started going in a direction I like (so never basically) my one weakpoint being their washes, as those things are awesome.
The problem isn't so much that GW has high prices so much as it charges a premium on every model, whether it's premium quality or not. For example, I'll pay Victoria Lamb or Kromlech's prices with no hesitation. I know that while I'm paying a premium, I'm going to get some of those coolest looking models out there. With GW, I just don't have that same confidence.
Also the costs for rules is getting insane. Yeah, I paid $50 for Grey wolf for flames of war, but it's a hardback book with over 300 pages, really nice quality, and has probably over 50 "army lists" from 3 different nations. It even comes with history, basic painting guides, and explanations of uniforms used and unit markings.
For that same cost, in 40k I would get a 50 page book with 2 pages of rules, mostly rehashed fluff I could buy from a previous codex 6 years ago, and (last I checked) no painting guides whatsoever. The Flames of war book also appears to have far more playtesting done and internal balance, since I can use almost any unit I wish out of the book and know that it will at least be useful for something. I wish I could say the same for my IG and Ork codexes.
TL;DR I wouldn't mind GW's "premium pricing" strategy if they actually released things that felt like premium products. I buy GW's washes all the time because I really like them and feel they're worth the money. Anything else they make at best feels like a decent product that I'm over charged for, and at worst, a really crappy product that you're getting taken on.
It is subjective, but you provided clear and concise reasons as to why you personally don't want to play and why GW won't win you back as a customer. The previous poster only said it's not fun with no explanation as to what he defines as fun, and I guess I should have asked him to speak to why he doesn't believe the game is fun anymore instead of saying something is subjective.
As to being "worth the money", how would you define that? I've found it to be worth the money compared to other hobbies like video games, magic, or even other similar modeling games strictly from a cost and recovery standpoint. A new Xbox One plus a few games in the US is $700+ dollars. I can get a good 40k army for that much, and spend 100's of hours of time modeling it, painting it, and playing it. If I take that Xbox back to Gamestop to sell it back, I'll be lucky to get half my money back, and in a few years, I'll be lucky to get a quarter of it back.
In terms of recovery, no other hobby lets you get out and recover a good chunk of your initial investment so easily. In many cases if you've been sitting on an army for a few years, the value of your models has gone up significantly. If it's well painted, its common to receive full retail or more. Example, in 1999 I bought a huge Sisters of Battle army for $250 through GW. Last year I sold it on eBay completely painted for $790. Even if you just want to get rid of a unit that's opened and sitting on sprues, it's not uncommon to still receieve 70% of retail value. And as time goes on, the price of your models appreciate since the price of the models go up through the source.
Pretty much nothing they do will get me back to paying those prices for their models though. That and I stopped playing with GI-Joe when I was about 10 (current crop of ginormous models with questionable aesthetic choices.)
The other thing is rules quality. 40K was never that tight or good a game. Some of the new ideas like Allies plainly don't work, and I don't think the size of the game really accommodates all the stuff like flyers, fortresses and so on. I would like a good, tight ruleset containing about the same content as 4th edition (Killteam for skirmishes, the standard game without superheavies, formations, etc, and a campaign system.) The add-on rules should be published as add-on books like Cities of Death, Apocalypse and so on, and not made part of the core system.
I think this is also pretty subjective. Rules like allies and add ons work perfectly fine outside of the most hyper-competitive scenes, and I would imagine the vast majority of us don't roll in those circles. What ruins it is when several players find a broken combo and they plaster it all across the internet. The last serious business tournament I played in last year was a copy and paste of army lists from internet forums. When GW was still running the Grand Tournament system, you wouldn't see an identical list out there. I think the internet has been great for promoting the hobby, but it also has created a darker demon where one persons army list is wrong, and they need to put this, that, and the other in their list, causing lots of players to feel that many of their units are useless, even if they never ever plan to play in a tournament. Now when I play in tournaments in my city (which are very casual), I go out of my way to make far feteched lists with supposedly weak units because it's that much more rewarding to win with something the internet has deemed to be non competitive.
I get your point. My view is that I don't want always to play with superheavies, for instance, whether in or out of tournaments, so I don't think they should be part of the core game.
That's not because I don't have suitable models, it's because I think the game doesn't "work" when excessive things are introduced. It's less interesting tactically. 40K is essentially a medium scale skirmish game and cannot digest a lot of the stuff that is being stuffed into it.
Obviously plenty of people feel differently, and that's fine. It's just that I prefer a situation in which people can choose to add extra stuff if they like it, rather than everyone being "forced" to buy everything including stuff they don't want.
Nothing would take me back. With the many 3rd party manufacturers out there, GW is maybe only good for rulebooks and maybe vehicles. Infantry etc. are much better bought elsewhere.
If you compare for instance a GW Imperial Guardsman with a Victoria's Miniatures not-Guardsman, which one looks better? Vic's one, hands down.
Now compare the GW normal Ork boyz, litlle legs, huge body, massive arms and big head. Now compare them with Basicks Orks or Kromlech Orks. Those GW sculpts are nothing more than ugly, don;t you agree?
With the quality of 3rd party manufacturers jumping in making GW stand-ins, the need for GW miniatures is getting less and less.
Low_K wrote: Nothing would take me back. With the many 3rd party manufacturers out there, GW is maybe only good for rulebooks and maybe vehicles. Infantry etc. are much better bought elsewhere.
If you compare for instance a GW Imperial Guardsman with a Victoria's Miniatures not-Guardsman, which one looks better? Vic's one, hands down.
Now compare the GW normal Ork boyz, litlle legs, huge body, massive arms and big head. Now compare them with Basicks Orks or Kromlech Orks. Those GW sculpts are nothing more than ugly, don;t you agree?
With the quality of 3rd party manufacturers jumping in making GW stand-ins, the need for GW miniatures is getting less and less.
At least that's my 2 cents.
Wow so not even upping the quality to be on par or better than the companies you just mentioned would do it?
Even a very significant drop in price and increase in the quality of the rulesets isn't likely to bring me back to previous levels of spending. I'm too invested in other games now.
In order to attract me back -at all-, the products would have to be pitched in an aggressively competitive way.
Perry do 40 models for £20 RRP.
GW would need to do the same with more options and the Warhammer style.
Rules need to be stabilised and reduced in cost. Fluff books (uniforms and livery etc) can be the hardback collectors or reference thing. Rules are rules, keep the fluff separated.
There would need to be stability, I'm thinking WFB3, 40k2 type stability;
Fixed core rules. As in non-changing, or very minimal tweaks. Free to download, or about the price of a magazine for a hard copy.
All armies covered in their own short lists. Reprinted and updated by year, not rules 'edition'. Rebuild all lists from ground up. About the price of a magazine for a hard copy, or free to download. Download version updated 'live'.
Rules updates (new units, FAQ and errata only) in white dwarf or online release.
Supplemental compendium of errata, FAQ and optional rules as a purchasable book for tabletop convenience.
Compendium of army lists available as a hard copy. Reprinted and updated annually; simply includes any clarifications and additions.
They'd just have to be a lot cheaper. Because of the squeeze GW have put on being able to buy their stuff when I had less money I've gone towards skirmish games and become more of a painter and modeller, their prices really soared in the 2000s. Catachans were 20 for £10 when first released, now those exact same figures are 10 for £18. Similarly there's been a cynical halving of the contents of many other boxes with only a small price decrease. Meanwhile other manufacturers are putting out boxes of plastics significantly cheaper per miniature.
GW don't do small games and their character figures are stupidly priced. A single character miniature from GW starts around £15, and that's in Finecast, a medium in simply not interested I because I want quality for painting. That's a huge issue, that the quality is so patchy. Enjoying character miniatures meant I really liked LotR, but those prices soared and the Hobbit prices, while perhaps not entirely GW's fault, are still absurd. Forgeworld do nice things but take their 'niche' demand thing a bit far. Much as I like the Primarchs I'm not paying £50 a pop for them. Horus Heresy stuff should sell like hot cakes but only if it gets a general release instead of this super expensive stuff.
The most expensive stuff I'm getting into is the Batman miniatures game, they are expensive but you only need 3-4 figures aside to play a game. It's not that I can't now afford GW either, but I just can't justify it.
riburn3 wrote: Wow so not even upping the quality to be on par or better than the companies you just mentioned would do it?
I know they wouldn't do that, period. They have this style which they love, with the oversized heads and limbs. If you compare Forgeworld's Imperial Guard with GW's, the difference in style is tremendous. I love the FW ones, they are more realistic than GW yet also more expensive and made from brittle resin. If they would make their new miniatures in te style of FW, in plastic and cheaper (the key word here), ofcourse I would buy them. But they can't do that while then everyone needs a new army while the sizes of the miniatures are off. I hope I haven't put an idea in their minds though
They are also nowadays all about making army lists which require you to either buy loads of miniatures (horde armies) or huge, very pricey kits. The rules they release nowadays are average at best (or so I read, no experience yet with 6th) and frankly I am surprised they even excist. I also don;t like their boycot on shipping to AUS/NZ by online retailers as well as sueing small companies who produce things GW abandoned but still have some IP rights on. That alone is reason enough to ban them
Truth be told I have loads of GW miniatures, even from Rogue Trader days. But I will not buy any new ones (maybe the odd one here and there) while 3rd party manufacturers make them so much better (and cheaper).
Everyone's going to have a different idea about prices, but I don't actually think the raw cost is the problem, the problem is the value provided for that cost.
When I started playing GW games, the company recognised that their asset was not any specific product per se, but rather their IPs and the community that was built around those IPs. Their focus was on expanding and encouraging that community, and providing new ways to interact with those IPs; you could walk into a GW store and both buy and play skirmish games, platoon-to-company level wargames, mass-battle strategy wargames in smaller scales, naval combat games. The store staff built custom tables and terrain, they would play a game against you if there were no other customers around(which was a rare occurrence). White Dwarf, the Citadel Journal, and the various SG magazines provided commentary, new rules, new scenarios, showcases of staff and customer armies and conversions, short stories and so on. There was still a perception that the company was being run by people who enjoyed the hobby they shared with their customers, rather than The Games Workshop Hobby(TM) ie buying GW product.
The company's price rises are not a new phenomenon, they were happening at a rate well above inflation even back in the tail end of those years, and as I said I don't think the raw cost is the problem at all, the issue was that the company stopped providing the added value that justified the premium they began to demand.
I've bought resin minis from wee studios or one man boutique operations that cost much more than a GW figure of equivalent size, I've spent far more than the original retail price on OOP miniatures, and in the past I've bought models in a local retail store when I could have bought them online for anywhere up to 30% cheaper, because in those cases I felt the value was there; small producers who scour their resin casts for the tiniest imperfection and hand-repair them before they send them to you, people who'll help you out with hobby questions, stores that earn customer loyalty through their efforts rather than simply demanding it.
So for me, a cut in the prices themselves is not necessary(although at the very least, the company should commit in future to never raise the cost of their products beyond the rate of inflation unless A; they experience a sustained increase in wholesale materials cost, or B; they add materially increase the value of the box with added models or useful bitz), it's what they charge money for that's at issue, as well as the attitude the company takes towards the community.
In order to get me buying from GW again, as opposed to buying third party miniatures or secondhand stuff with the exception of the very occasional ebay bitz order, I would expect them to dump their microtransaction model for new content; either put it in the codex, put it in White Dwarf, or put in the effort to create a proper product like an Imperial Armour-style book. Reduce the prices for "primary" rules, and provide a voucher in every physical product for a free digital copy. Either properly staff their retail stores and trust the managers and staff to do their job of growing GW's customer base by building a community around the product, or admit that the whole concept of the retail chain doesn't work anymore and switch over to either a franchise system, or a support network to run events and promos in indie stores. They need to recognise that the reason so many people were willing to pay them money for their "catalogue" was that it provided more than just listings of product and exhortations to BUY BUY BUY! and return WD to a proper hobby magazine.
You get the idea anyway; the reason people were willing to pay GW prices was because you weren't just paying for the box of models, you were paying for the network of stores, the community support, the "perks". Take all of that away and you're just left with overpriced models, and quelle surprise a lot of people will take their custom elsewhere.
Oh, and one more thing they would have to do; a clean-sweep of the upper management. Kirby in particular must go, because I wouldn't trust him or anyone he appointed or recommended to succeed him to make changes to the company ethos with any sincerity.
Yodhrin wrote: Everyone's going to have a different idea about prices, but I don't actually think the raw cost is the problem, the problem is the value provided for that cost.
When I started playing GW games, the company recognised that their asset was not any specific product per se, but rather their IPs and the community that was built around those IPs. Their focus was on expanding and encouraging that community, and providing new ways to interact with those IPs; you could walk into a GW store and both buy and play skirmish games, platoon-to-company level wargames, mass-battle strategy wargames in smaller scales, naval combat games. The store staff built custom tables and terrain, they would play a game against you if there were no other customers around(which was a rare occurrence). White Dwarf, the Citadel Journal, and the various SG magazines provided commentary, new rules, new scenarios, showcases of staff and customer armies and conversions, short stories and so on. There was still a perception that the company was being run by people who enjoyed the hobby they shared with their customers, rather than The Games Workshop Hobby(TM) ie buying GW product.
The company's price rises are not a new phenomenon, they were happening at a rate well above inflation even back in the tail end of those years, and as I said I don't think the raw cost is the problem at all, the issue was that the company stopped providing the added value that justified the premium they began to demand.
I've bought resin minis from wee studios or one man boutique operations that cost much more than a GW figure of equivalent size, I've spent far more than the original retail price on OOP miniatures, and in the past I've bought models in a local retail store when I could have bought them online for anywhere up to 30% cheaper, because in those cases I felt the value was there; small producers who scour their resin casts for the tiniest imperfection and hand-repair them before they send them to you, people who'll help you out with hobby questions, stores that earn customer loyalty through their efforts rather than simply demanding it.
So for me, a cut in the prices themselves is not necessary(although at the very least, the company should commit in future to never raise the cost of their products beyond the rate of inflation unless A; they experience a sustained increase in wholesale materials cost, or B; they add materially increase the value of the box with added models or useful bitz), it's what they charge money for that's at issue, as well as the attitude the company takes towards the community.
In order to get me buying from GW again, as opposed to buying third party miniatures or secondhand stuff with the exception of the very occasional ebay bitz order, I would expect them to dump their microtransaction model for new content; either put it in the codex, put it in White Dwarf, or put in the effort to create a proper product like an Imperial Armour-style book. Reduce the prices for "primary" rules, and provide a voucher in every physical product for a free digital copy. Either properly staff their retail stores and trust the managers and staff to do their job of growing GW's customer base by building a community around the product, or admit that the whole concept of the retail chain doesn't work anymore and switch over to either a franchise system, or a support network to run events and promos in indie stores. They need to recognise that the reason so many people were willing to pay them money for their "catalogue" was that it provided more than just listings of product and exhortations to BUY BUY BUY! and return WD to a proper hobby magazine.
You get the idea anyway; the reason people were willing to pay GW prices was because you weren't just paying for the box of models, you were paying for the network of stores, the community support, the "perks". Take all of that away and you're just left with overpriced models, and quelle surprise a lot of people will take their custom elsewhere.
Oh, and one more thing they would have to do; a clean-sweep of the upper management. Kirby in particular must go, because I wouldn't trust him or anyone he appointed or recommended to succeed him to make changes to the company ethos with any sincerity.
Thank you for this. Although I still am very much involved in the hobby and buy GW products with great regularity, this post is full of win. It got me feeling nostalgic to when I played a Dogs of War Army and had to carry my Chapter Approved White Dwarf with me because it had the rules for me to field an Ogre as the leader of my mercenaries. It really makes one reflect on how far GW has gone away from promoting the hobby in all aspects, to just promoting models.
Price cut across the board and much cheaper entry points. Starting a new army shouldn't cost a few hundred dollars for the minimum that people play.
Offer me a faction boxed army with 750 points 1000 for fantasy) for around 125 and a free codex with it. A price cut doesn't have to be anything crazy - 20% I'd say to compare with what online retailers used to offer.; it's the initial cost that's the worst. Buying a tank for $50+ isn't that bad but when I need to spend 3-400 dollars just starting a new army it's not going to get me to even bother. They may take a hit on the starter army by offering it at a lower price but that's the only way to entice new people and encourage new armies.
The boxed set for each game should basically consist of two starter army boxes plus the rules and dice and templates, maybe a bit of terrain pieces. Again a hit as you'd save a ton on it versus individually but that's how it must be for longterm growth.
I would love to see armies in both major systems get box sets that has 750pt armies in them and include the army book/codex and a small rulebook.
This allows new players to know they can jump in, choose an army they want, and know they have everything they need to play outside of dice and tape measures.
Power gamers would complain about units included in these bundles like they do with current battle force compositions, but I think it would get people over the largest hurdle of "what do I need buy in order to play".
riburn3 wrote: I would love to see armies in both major systems get box sets that has 750pt armies in them and include the army book/codex and a small rulebook.
This allows new players to know they can jump in, choose an army they want, and know they have everything they need to play outside of dice and tape measures.
Power gamers would complain about units included in these bundles like they do with current battle force compositions, but I think it would get people over the largest hurdle of "what do I need buy in order to play".
Precisely. I also think codexes and the rulebook should be softcover and smaller, and run no more than $25 (think how the rulebook from Dark Vengeance is). I'm not sure what power gamers complain about right now but as long as the forces are decently balanced there shouldn't be any issue; a newbie isn't going to jump right into powergaming anyways so a balanced force would serve them well.
I was going to say "price cuts", but I think I agree that what I really want is added value and better quality.
I mean, I'm sitting on hundreds of euros worth of painted orks, chaos and marines, as well as a huge fully painted Orc army and an unassembled Chaos Warriors army, and I have no particular inclination to get the tram down to the well resourced GW with lovely tables that is only 40 minutes from me.
I could do it any weekend, but the game is just not fun enough for me. I find the newer codices to be all presentation and no "meat", with obviously crap choices and obviously broken choices taking all the fun out of list building. I am not some hyper tournament player, I like to play theme lists and then try and get as much power out of my theme as I can. It's not much fun when you know that your theme stands zero chance of winning against a standard build.
Added to the problem with the army rules at the moment is the problems with the scale of the game. I have piles of models and I could easily run a huge game using them, I even have a squiggoth and so on. However, I don't see them as being a part of the "main" game, and I dislike seeing the battlefield cluttered with ginormous fliers, super heavies and fortresses. These things are all really cool for themed games, but I wouldn't want to have to deal with it when playing a stranger (which is my likely mode of entry). By forcing me to negotiate with strangers to get a fun game, GW have added an extra layer of social anxiety to travelling to the shop for me, so I don't bother with it.
Add to that the fact that I find 6th ed 40K and 8th ed Fantasy to be utterly bloated rules wise, and even with my large collection, I am not motivated to play the game. My free time is too precious to spend it deploying huge numbers of plastic mens who will be removed in droves due to the vagaries of the dice.
I would actually play the Hobbit, but I feel that is a special case where the prices are SO ludicrous that I can't justify it to myself. I love the plastics they're releasing and really enjoy the LOTR rules set, but I can't see myself paying 35 euro for 6 wolf riders. Especially when Tre Manor is producing stellar miniatures for less money.
So, I guess, a price cut on rules and Hobbit miniatures is needed for me, as well as an improvement in the quality of those rules.
I don't see the rules going the way I want, though. I imagine even more crazy stuff will be crowded into the basic game. Cool if that's your thing, but it's definitely not for me.
I'm not that unhappy with the situation though as it has spurred me to take the plunge into historicals like Saga and Hail Ceasar (which to be honest has even looser rules than GW games). It's also freed me from concerns about things being "GW legal" and allowed me to branch out my collection into all sorts of cool stuff. I've especially enjoyed getting into more "true scale" miniatures. I'm very happy with my hobby at the moment, just not the GW aspect.
I like many others was introduced to war-gaming through 40k. I played it exclusively from 2005 through till 6th Ed hit. And I was done. For me the money/fun ratio wasn't there anymore.
I found WM MKII and I fell in love with smaller style games with tight rules.
I would love to try games like Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, Necromunda, I have heard amazing things (most probably nostalgia on peoples part, but consistently good stuff) about them.
GW needs to go back to its roots, be hobby focused, make it fun again, Like others have said here and in other threads.
On another note, Publicly traded companies are there to "Maximize Shareholder Profitability" and that's fine. However it doesn't have to mean gouging the customers, Put out amazing products with an amazing customer experience and folks will buy your stuff. Simple in concept but apparently harder than just slashing and burning....
Bring the prices inline with other competitors.
Separate design and sales depts, listen to design dept.
Bring back small games in 40k, and space crusade, blood bowl necromunda etc.
encourage independent retailers to push hobby, more games space = more discount.
Give some product to forums as prizes as way of apologizing.
Use internet forums for feedback, listen to customers.
To echo many others, I'd want a price drop initially. Especially on older kits, like basic Marines. And rules now that I think about it. I'd also want a modernised rule set. Alternate activations, living rules, open beta testing. I would also like a modular, or multiple rulesets. The game should be playable, with tactical and strategic depth at all levels from skirmish to mass battle. I'd like the fluff to advance a bit, or have consistent presentation instead of the one upmanship of over the top action presented in every codex.
For pricing, it's very simple. People are going to compare to the substitutes. Model for model, warhammer and warmachine are pretty similarly priced. However, I don't need 100+ models to have a working warmachine army.
3 riptides cost $255. 3 models already cost more than the first 1500 point deathwing army I ever built. (4 boxes of terminators and 1 $40 dreadnought)
Secondly, I think it's a tougher sell these days to new players. As a GW employee, I used to pitch that the starter boxes were similarly priced to games at the $60 mark. At the $100 mark, people are getting sticker shock. On top of that, players are comparing to games like dominion, sentinels of the multiverse, descent,etc etc. Those games are not costing $100+ dollars to start. Not everything should be cheap, but entry into the game should be cheap.
A 10 model dire avenger box used to cost $30. The new box costs $35 for 5 models. You can still get guardians for 10 models for $~30ish dollars. People are not dumb...it's not even price competitive within its own codex. I understand in business you should try to get whatever price you can, but that just reeks of idiocy. 10 tacticals cost $40, and they're a new box with resculpts. The dire avengers are exactly the same. Does GW seriously think people don't know that?
And then...the rules. I hate the beer and pretzls mentality. I hate the game being just a dice game. I enjoy tactics and strategy, and this game has continually tried its best to make tactics and strategy not important. I understand that the game is really about "cool" weapons and "cool" tanks and monsters, but when stuff completely invalidates armies...I become very happy that they are losing money. A great game doesn't gurantee profit, but a bad game guarantees loss.
Now I buy the occasional GW kit (three or four since 6th hit ), but what would really get me back into "The hobby of buying Games Workshop products" would be if they started producing and selling Warmaster and Epic again. If the rules were good and the models were reasonably priced I'd be all over it.
Lower prices; rewrite rules; settle on terms favorable to Chapterhouse; apologize publicly; fire Tom Kirby, Alan Merrett, Andy Jones, and Jes Goodwin; engage positively with customer base; revise antagonistic relationship with independent retailers...
Oh Hell, that'll never happen unless GW get bought out by Hasbro or someone. So...I'd probably get back in if GW got bought out and the upper management was gutted.
My disengagement with GW as a customer is a mix of not being engaged as a customer, better value from competitors, and a moral and ethical dislike for the company.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally, I'm not completely divorced, but I do have one foot out of the door, but I can summarise what it would take for me to really reengage in one sentence
"Convince me you care about your long term customers and the quality of your product."
Well, for starters I'd need players that wanted to play 40k instead of warmachine, myself included!
I'd get back into GW in a second if that's what people were playing, and where I could get in a game easily multiple nights a week.
Now, I could still find games and tournaments, and I could play 40k if I really wanted to. What would make me want to? That's a longer question.
Price doesn't bother a ton. At least, that wouldn't stop me alone. I have enough stuff that I can play without buying more, and when 6th hit, I had even more, including tons of unpainted stuff. At this point, my unpainted 40k collection is pretty tiny. Still, I would build a new army from the ground up if I thought I would have fun playing with.
To me, 40k is not fun because the game is highly random, needlessly complicated, and no longer particularly evocotive of the back ground. I tapped out before the proliferation of dataslates and the like, but simply facing double heldrakes was enough to show me that the game had wild imbalance problems.
I've been playing mostly warmachine, and it's shocking how well balanced that game is, between factions and within them. It's also often simpler. A quick example: In 40k, movement is simple: move 6". Difficult makes that 2d6, pick the highest, while "move through cover" makes it 3d6", pick the highest. So the new rule (difficult terrain) adds a random element, while a secondary rule just complicates the first new rule. Compare to Warmachine, were difficult simply halves your movement, which is basedon the speed of models (dwarves are slower then elves!). Pathfinder simply ignores difficult terrain. So difficult terrain is a known factor, and two rules simply cancel each other out. that's a big abstraction, sure, but it makes things simpler, and allows for tactical choices. 40k's rules put things in the hands of fate.
In short, I think that 40k has overly complicated rules, and overly simple actual gameplay. Until the rules lose a lot of the unneccesary fiddliness, it'll be hard to try to play.
I'm curious about that too, but don't want to derail the thread. I've never heard anything that would make me think Jes Goodwin was a disgusting human being.
No, I mean Jes Goodwin. I will not support a company that hires Jes Goodwin for anything. Regardless of his artwork, he disgusts me as a human being.
Wow! There some goat fellatio or something I'm hitherto unaware of?
I've met him and I really, really don't like him.
He will lie with a smile and stab you in the back. And he isn't stupid or unskilled. That makes it worse. He stays at GW because he likes what he is doing there...
But that's just me, and I'm pretty biased. There are so many folks who were at GW that are just sweet, honest, well-meaning folks and great artists. You look Jes Goodwin in the face and it is very easy to see why he is still with GW.
Well that's fair enough, we've all met people and instantly thought "I don't like you."
In fact, on the rare occasion I've ever been burned by anyone, personally or professionally, it has invariably been when, for whatever reasons, I've suppressed or ignored that instinct.
To answer the OP more emphatically, if GW were to be sold, and a new Mangement/design team came in, I would jump back into 40k if they rebooted the game.
And I mean a complete, 2nd edition to 3rd edition style reboot. New core rules, new army lists, the whole deal. I think it would the sale of the company, but I look at what happend with TSR when WotC bought it. 2nd Edition D&D was super bloated and dumb, and they really helped revive it.
I want to buy, build, paint, and play 40k armies. It's just not worth it right now...
jonolikespie wrote: @NAVARRO
And that's all well and good for some people but the rest of us wonder why we should spend $100 when the same amount of equal quality models would only cost $45 from one of GWs competitors.
Because you already have tons of competitors models on your collections and want specifically Gw minis for your wfb project?
I dont know about other people but personally I'm having fun completing some of my old armies and the cost does not bother me much. But my shopping habits are very modest and spread so I can cope better I guess.
I barely have time for anything so Hobbies are almost extinct in my life, so the ritual of going to a store buying some minis and then assemble etc reminds my old days. Thats good enough for me if I can do it like once each 3 months.
Once you have ridiculous amounts of minis and collections already you select things differently, its not about saving 25% its about buying exactly what you want.
Edit: Forgot to add about being selective... you could create the best model in the world, and price it as free but if it was finecast I would not want it on my collections... so maybe thats something GW should change.
Bring back the specialist games, re-open the bunkers and hobby centers, allow the design studio to do their job and put out creative content, and most of all reconnect with the customer base rather than driving them away in droves.
Basically reset the company to how it was in the late 90''s before they went public.
It seems that more and more people are seeing similarities and parallels between GW and the fall of TSR - up to and including a CEO that disdains their core audience.
But their are also a fair number of differences -
One difference is that by their late days TSR was trying to open ever more properties rather than cutting down to focus on two or three games. (Anyone remember Dragon Dice? ) so resources were spread ever thinner.
GW has gotten rid of all but their two (three if you count Hobbit) games.
The quality of TSR books plummeted at the end - all except for their core hardcovers. (Their hardcovers were things of beauty, built to withstand a nuclear war....)
GW is increasing the physical quality of their books - but then increasing the price far beyond that of those improvements.
Of course, this is also not the first time that GW has decided to slap everything in hard covers - anyone remember City Scape? cut out cardboard buildings... in a hardcover....) And both then and now the bindings have left something to be desired.
TSR had a wide edition cycle, while GW is getting narrower and narrower in the cycle between editions - GW doesn't need hardcovers, they need three ring binders....
But the start of the solution for both companies is the same - axe the CEO.
TSR had Lorraine Williams (and, ah, the tales that have been told), GW has Kirby (a lot fewer personal anecdotes - Lorraine annoyed people on a personal and daily basis, Kirby only does so in grand gestures)....
One difference is that by their late days TSR was trying to open ever more properties rather than cutting down to focus on two or three games. (Anyone remember Dragon Dice? ) so resources were spread ever thinner.
GW has gotten rid of all but their two (three if you count Hobbit) games.
Sort of, in effect they got rid of the specialist games almost a decade ago, they kept things lingering on life support by keeping models available but the games were all but dead to GW. So pruning those isn't a recent move. While they reduced their focus to the core games they done a lot to up the SKU count so that is an effort to expand their core properties. Each release they'd add new models to the army's range. They've increased the release rate for black library, DLC, main book and codexes. So while the lines have narrowed in focus they've been pushing hard to expand the total offered product within those lines.
They also cut a lot of staff which means they are spreading thinner. While they may have remained stable in the studio the core of their interaction is through their retail staffers which have been slashed. When you remove the most prominent public face of your company it will cost you customer interaction and ultimately loyalty.
There is a major difference between TSR and GW, TSR advertised like crazy you couldn't walk into a gaming store without seeing TSR products or open a gaming magazine that didn't feature some sort of related TSR content. They spammed all the major conventions like Gen Con and Origins so they had a highly visible public face even if they didn't have TSR employees directly interacting with consumers. Meanwhile Gw does none of that the only advertising they do is internal through their employees and word of mouth. By slashing that employee base they have effectively removed the majority of their only "advertising"
Without bunkers and hobby centers in the US it will not create the draw and interest level that has helped GW grow into the size it has been. By switching away from the hobby related aspects they have chosen a path that is going to act as a barrier to new players entering the GW market which is the lifeblood of the company. Old salts certainly have buying power but it's nothing compared to the "churn and burn" crowd of new customers which they've specifically sought out for the last decade or more.
It's going to be very hard for new people to discover GW in the US when they force indy retailers to stop carrying products and GW's one man shops can't support the gaming or hobby end which is what currently draws a huge portion of the new customer base.
Alkasyn wrote: I could stomach the prices if the game was fun to play. It isn't.
Fair enough, but that's incredibly subjective. Some people define fun in the hobby as modeling and painting. Some define it as spending a casual afternoon with friends playing the game in a relaxed setting, and some define it as steamrolling everyone with the most cheesed out list possible. I look at a lot of the Tyranid whining on the message boards here and elsewhere and see people upset that they can't make a cheesed out list to counter other cheesed out lists. At the casual level where most of the player base exists, these are hardly issues.
Fun for me means I can:
play the models I like with a chance to win (no useless models)
have a dynamic rules system that is not centered on killing each other
paint nice looking models
Infinity provides all of these. After tasting the ARO(automatic reaction order) system which allows you to make tactical decisions that can even hurt your enemy during HIS turn, I never looked back on Warhammer. My tactical marines would just keep standing when being shot at. My Hassasin shoot back. A lot more fun.
1) The studio gets outsourced to someone with a track record of good game design. The current model of splash releases and backwards compatibility is stupid. I have zero confidence in anyone at GW in terms of games design and will never buy a game from them again.
2) The customer experience of the product is redesigned from the ground up as if it's a completely new product for the market.
3) GW releases it's stranglehold on distribution and allows distributors to carry their product just like any other so local stores never have to deal directly with GW if they don't want to. And stores can sell the product however they want to whomever they want. Be it online, overseas, whatever.
Yeah, "price cut" is the bandwagon answer, and I'm not going to be jumping on it, it's far too crowded already.
What GW need to do is feedback and reward their customers a bit more, and maybe offer the odd deal or two. I'll deal with each of these three points separately.
Feedback - GW provides what is a very strange product, when you think about it. Every few years, a re-release of a certain army is done, which, provides certain people in the hobby with new stuff, but also can make certain people quite upset. It's odd. Think about it. If, I dunno, Hollister released a new line of T-shirts, there's no chance that many customers will become upset and sell all their old Hollister T-shirts on eBay. Yet, with GW, this can happen, as I'm sure some people will have done over the new Nid codex. I think feedback or some questioning of hobbyists would benefit GW a lot. This wouldn't compromise their secrecy - a simple running poll on the website for every army would work in their favour - and they can still release the "big shiny" models, that will pull in lots of impulse buyers and they can still give them good rules so people will buy them anyway. But, maybe, they'll be able to make that extra unit viable, and hence sell some more.
Also, I think GW could use this to fill gaps in their range. For example, I think there's a fairly big demand for a new, proper, SoB release and new range, as well as a skirmish version of WHFB. GW might not know this, but some communication with hobbyists could inform them of such things and hence they can pick up on some new sales.
Reward - I've been saying this for years, but I think GW would HUGELY benefit from a Reward Card System. For every, say, pound you spend you get a point and those points could be spend on either a) stuff in-store or b) merchandise you can't otherwise buy (a system like HMV or Nintendo) have set up. I really think there's a huge potential for the latter. We've seen that GW customers lap up this sort of stuff so using points on artwork, limited edition models, signed Black Library books etc would be popular and wouldn't inhibit GW's profit making that much, as people are still buying everything. This system would benefit us but also GW. GW make a lot of their sales on impulses, and double points on pre-orders (and other choice sets like Battleforces and Starter boxes) would just add to that. It would also encourage more people to buy direct from GW, rather than via an independent stocklist or eBay.
Deals - Again, like every business, especially ones with large profit margins like GW, deals are big business. I doubt GW will ever do buy-one-get-one-free, but something like a free character model when you purchase a battleforce would be a huge incentive to spend, just like any deals are. And we get to save money. I'm no expert, but I'm of the belief that HMV have managed to cling on purely because of their recurring 2 for £10 deals.
Honestly, I really dislike it when people compare prices to Warmachine and act as if Warmachine's prices were anything other than slightly less obscene, like the Shocker to GW's Spocker. The models are way too expensive for anyone who isn't into wargaming for "tight rules" above all else and already sure he's going to like wargaming in general, i.e. a certain type of GW expat. If my first wargaming experience was with PP's models, I would still be fething around with Monopoly.
Besides, the strength of plastic is that it can be produced in larger numbers for cheap--why bother tooling it if you're not going to use its strength?
Anyone who says prices don't matter either already has enough models already or is living in some kind of economic bubble. The lifeblood of these games are the younger gamers who bring in fresh blood and cash, and they certainly can't afford your attitude of "I'll spend whatever crazy amount if I like their minis."
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Honestly, I really dislike it when people compare prices to Warmachine and act as if Warmachine's prices were anything other than slightly less obscene, like the Shocker to GW's Spocker.
The usual argument is that you need less of those expensive models to have a proper Warmachine army, which of course means gak for painters/modellers.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Honestly, I really dislike it when people compare prices to Warmachine and act as if Warmachine's prices were anything other than slightly less obscene, like the Shocker to GW's Spocker.
The usual argument is that you need less of those expensive models to have a proper Warmachine army, which of course means gak for painters/modellers.
But means everything to actual gamers, which no offense meant but I would bet gamers outnumber the people who just buy cool figures to paint. The reason for the comparison is because getting into Warmahordes is around $50 for a workable, if lightweight, army. You can pick up a faction boxed set and sit down to play a game with anybody else. You cannot do that in WHFB or 40k; the boxed set doesn't usually give enough for a workable army, neither do the Battleforces, and you're looking at $300 or so just to have a basic army. That's the appeal of Warmahordes over GW's crap; I can go to my FLGS right now and buy let's say a Cygnar battle box, and be ready to play some actual games, or spend $99 with a friend and get two fairly decent armies if we want to use what's included in the two player box. With GW, I'd spend twice as much and still not have a legit army, by which I mean more than the stupid "demo game" style one or two units a side which few, if anyone, actually plays, I mean actual entry-level points values. The Warmahordes battle boxes give you that for around $50, while GW costs about 4+ times as much to hit the basic (750/1000 points) mark.
Cheaper is nice, can't complain if it goes down, although my FLGS does a 20% discount on all GW, so can't really complain.
I'd like to see the rules balanced out, no brainer really.
Get rid of those silly hardback books, there is no need to make them hardback other than to make more money out of the same book.
Venture online, bring out a GW army builder where you put armies together, make it a reasonable price too. A online book is no where near the same price as a physical one.
I know Space Marines are the front men of the company, but do we really need so many Space Marine books?
im trying to get back into it, and i think eveyrthing seems OK except the lack of availability at hobby stores (yeah ive seen that great games workshop conspiracy vid and that guy has a good point unfortunately) and the absurd pricing.
if they can't keept a 10 man box of tactical marines under 50 bucks than something is horribly wrong.
edit: i can't speak to the gameplay balancing yet but i'll take the peoples word for it that it could use some revisions.
i would also love to see a starter box with imperial fists ( a great alternative "vanilla" marine chapter) versus eldar. but thats just my pipe dream
I cannot comment on the rules given that I have not played for so long, but from reading the forums here there does seem to be some issues with the rules.
Lets see, if I wanted to get back into the hobby my outlay for a bare bones legal force would be;
Rulebook $74.25
Blood Angels Codex; $33
Space Marine Commander; $22.25
Tactical Squad; $40
Assault Squad; $33.00
Total; $202.50
Or if I went with a battleforce (add a Rhino and Death Company) instead the total is $240.50
That is just to get a very small pick up game going, and before I even think about putting paint to plastic. If I wanted a more rounded force;
Death Company; $33.00 (Troops)
Chaplain $16.00 (HQ)
Sanguinary Guard; $33.00 (Elites)
Terminator Assault Squad; $50.00 (Elites)
Baal Predator; $57.75 (Fast Attack)
Vanguard Veterans; $40 (Fast Attack)
Vindicator; $57.75 (Heavy Support)
Dreadnought; $46.25 (Heavy Support)
My total has just gone up to $536.25. That is quite a price hurdle for anyone starting/coming back into the hobby.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: I cannot comment on the rules given that I have not played for so long, but from reading the forums here there does seem to be some issues with the rules.
Lets see, if I wanted to get back into the hobby my outlay for a bare bones legal force would be;
Rulebook $74.25
Blood Angels Codex; $33
Space Marine Commander; $22.25
Tactical Squad; $40
Assault Squad; $33.00
Total; $202.50
Or if I went with a battleforce (add a Rhino and Death Company) instead the total is $240.50
That is just to get a very small pick up game going, and before I even think about putting paint to plastic. If I wanted a more rounded force;
Death Company; $33.00 (Troops)
Chaplain $16.00 (HQ)
Sanguinary Guard; $33.00 (Elites)
Terminator Assault Squad; $50.00 (Elites)
Baal Predator; $57.75 (Fast Attack)
Vanguard Veterans; $40 (Fast Attack)
Vindicator; $57.75 (Heavy Support)
Dreadnought; $46.25 (Heavy Support)
My total has just gone up to $536.25. That is quite a price hurdle for anyone starting/coming back into the hobby.
Exactly, herein is the problem. You would spend $240 for the bare legal amount basically, and that's hoping people are willing to play smaller points games with you otherwise you need the $536 amount to actually start to play. That's ridiculous, especially when other companies offer basic armies for less than half the cost. I priced an equivalent Vampire Counts army compared to Mantic's KOW Undead boxed army and the total was $588 for GW versus $175 for KoW, for the same number of models + the rules; over three times the cost for the same number of figures.
I'm just going down with the ship. Not going to quit, and jump into some new game that probably won't last 6 months past kick starter...
I technically have restarted, everytime a new rule set comes out, I see the shiny new figures and jump! I've seen the rules change, I've seen the miniatures change, I like the old stuff when it was new, I like the new stuff it looks amazing! I got divorced, moved several times, so this latest edition I restarted all over again. I collected up the hobby from basic tools, and brushes to figures, and models. Then out of the blue the ex gave my stuff back... Which was nice to have back because I have 26 years or so of collecting, mainly nice to have the most recent projects back, and my books.
So really I started over again, I love it, bad rules ok rules whatever, I've been entertained with it all in some apsect. There was a time then the rules were terrible, that modelling became the strong part of my 40K hobby.
Some of this disucssion and nay saying can bring a bloke down, but I've seen it come and go. Seasonal... More hobby centers are opening, more stuff is coming out. Not too concerned.
Really good reading, you guys for the most part are very well spoken.
Now for people in full time employment, with a relatively steady income this can be more manageable by budgeting, buying in limited amounts, etc. but that means excluding those with less disposable income. This affects younger people coming into the game. To keep the business alive in the long term you need new people getting invested in the hobby, otherwise you are selling to a shrinking base.
Kelly502 wrote: Not going to quit, and jump into some new game that probably won't last 6 months past kick starter...
I'm wondering what you mean by this, you know that there are other established games out there right? Warmachine, Infinity, Dystopian Wars/Firestorm Armada and Mantics stuff aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Hell most of those kickstarters are by established companies looking to grow.
Kelly502 wrote: Not going to quit, and jump into some new game that probably won't last 6 months past kick starter...
I'm wondering what you mean by this, you know that there are other established games out there right? Warmachine, Infinity, Dystopian Wars/Firestorm Armada and Mantics stuff aren't going anywhere any time soon.
Hell most of those kickstarters are by established companies looking to grow.
I've seen them come and go bro'. That's what I meant. GW's games have been there consistantly since I've been gaming.
I'll split this into different levels of "back in".
To get me to buy some new models again whenever I feel like wasting some cash instead of say, a video game or MtG cards:
- Reduce 10 man squad cost to $25
- Reduce character model cost to $10
- Reduce large model (dreadnought) price to $30
- Reduce extra large model (baneblade) price to $75
- Implement bit service for reasonable price to allow non-covered items in the sets above. Must have things like dual lightning claws for CSM.
- I'd like price to be MSRP, but could be 20% higher as long as I can pick-up for the above price.
- Allow and support FLGS carrying the full line of models.
To get me to actually play my army again:
- Scrap the current 40K and fantasy rules.
- Start over with a well balanced game with community feedback (see Warmachine V2 for how)
- Deploy one or two big army books (imperium and not imperium), then roll out additions which grow the options, but don't obsolete the prior books, for all armies at once (see Warmachine).
- Make rules tournament quality and able to support tournaments.
To get me to buy another army:
- Rules from above
- Price reductions from above
- Good starter box
- Incentives to play such as sponsored events for new releases.
- Engagement with the community on what is coming up.
To get me to promote the game:
- Engagement with the community such as forums, facebook, twitter, etc.
- All of the above
- Maybe hold a sale sometime
- Commitment to the community
Pricing, 75+ USD is far too much for my own personal budget to get a BASIC RULE BOOK. Many of the model kits are getting the same/worse.
Balance. I'm sorry, but my Nid army should be able to compete with or beat ANY list put on the table. Each edition and each codex seems to make it more and more difficult for those who don't wish to play the latest, greatest force to win, much less compete. This is one area where I feel groups like Privateer Press are beating GW.
With the balance issue goes the tightness of the rules. two players should not have to halt a game during the first shooting phase due to both units' special rules preventing or boosting the shooting aspects of each involved.
I'd love to see them put things like the Space marine Strikeforce (although I'd get rid of the stupid drop pod that just takes up space and replace it with a Predator or something cool) for every army, as a good entry point to starting a new force. Price it like $174.99 or even $199.99 and throw in the codex for free. New/returning players can pick that up and have everything they need for a basic, entry-level army. Will it be the best army ever? No probably not, but it would give you an HQ, troops, and extras (Elite/Fast/Heavy) to serve as a solid starting point to expand.
That should be done for every army in the game; all boxed units should have the appropriate amount of troops (within reason for some things that let you field like 40), meaning no garbage like WHFB units being fielded in 20 but bought 10 to a box thus forcing you to spend double, or even worse garbage like Dire Avengers that were cut in half and the price actually increased so you're paying more for less models; include in them with all available options (i.e. don't just offer 1 heavy weapon, offer plastic versions of all of them with duplicates if duplicates are allowed in the codex), and put a straight 40% price reduction across the board on everything - if they're convinced of pushing people to order from GW direct as a lot of the rumors are, offer that discount exclusively via GW Mail Order; bring back buying Bitz. Make a paperback small rulebook for $20, and put codexes back to how they were in 3rd edition style at the same price. Get some decent paints not charge more for less paint (go work out a deal with Vallejo to license their Game Color range or use Army Painter or something like that).
The increased sales would make up for any perceived profit loss.
I said this in one thread, but I think it bears repeating here. Have starter sets of snap fit models, of a set point limit (maybe 750) that contains a legal army plus an Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support choice, but also have the rules and codex included. But do the same as Corvus Belli. The free rules have no art work, no photographs of models, no fluff etc. it is just the basic rules that you need to get started with.
What would it take for me? Depends on what you mean by "get back into Gw products". I have 20k worth of painted figs so stubbornly not using them only punishes me and not Gw. That said... I bought a single 40k figure in 2013 (Gamesday captain secondhand) and used to average one ARMY a year. 40k used to be my game of choice and now its my game of last resort that I bring an army for in case the other 2-3 games I want to play have no takers at the FLGS. What drove me away? Definitely the prices were the biggest push but the craptacular finecast rollout along with my general dislike for 6th edition were the final nails in that coffin. I sold off almost all my unpainted or unwanted figs from superheavies to basic infantry and I'm left with 99.9% painted armies that each fit in a large single carrying case each.
I don't think after the past two years of not buying any units that I'll ever get back to starting new armies even with a price cut. At this point, I'm doubt I'd acquire any new army other than by a painted army swap with another player. With a better ruleset available for $20 as a stand alone purchase and cheaper codex options, I could be swayed back to playing regularly and buying some codex/expansion books which would likely reignite my interest in related GW properties. It is usually overlooked in these types of discussions but the prices caused a lack of play on top of figure purchases which decreased my interest 40k overall which caused me to NOT buy a single 40k related book or videogame during that time as well. As always, YMMV.
I would probably start a new army if they stopped lowering the model count and increasing the price tag. The Cadians are my example. I love IG and want more, but $29 for a box of ten that used to cost $35 for a box of 20ish is outrageous. Plus the pay to win aspect of it, I dont want to have to buy a AA unit to take out a flyer that almost every army has now, Maybe make my pintle mounted gun on my Russ AA.
Plus the codex change to much and their price. I have a German army in FoW and am on my second book. First book cost me 20, second cost me 20. I've had 4 space marine books now, first 15, then 20, then 25ish, then 30ish and now its going to cost me 60ish when a hard cover comes out.
I was browsing at my FLGS yesterday and saw the Harpy at $115 and the Haruspex for $100, and the prices made me feel dirty. Instead I bought a bit of infinity terrain (a MAS garage) and a Tohaa Ectros HMG for &40 total.
As for rules, I don't mind 6th, in fact I enjoy the randomness. But I'm a Tyranid player - need I say more?
Price cuts. Basically. About 50% reduction minimum.
A company that doesn't despise me would help as well. But if you're a late-twenties "nerd" with a focus on gaming and quality, GW wants nothing to do with you. Stop treating your fanbase as the enemy and stop waging a war against them as well.
Honestly? If it's a model that'll make a good transition to KoW that I can get inexpensively. I want some GW dryads for my Sylvan kin, but that's all I can think of, at the moment. As for GW games? Nah, there's better stuff. I spent a decade loving GW stuff, but eventually I reached my limit. Crappy rules, crazy prices, and I found better games. I have no reason to go back to inferior games. Their fluff is great though, I'll continue reading the Horus Heresy novels and I'll even continue buying paints. That's it though.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
Pretty much this. Plus having a local store near more that I can play at. The GW at Concord Mills (Concord, NC) was awesome, but when it closed down it really killed the hobby around here, because people would drive those extra miles for a dedicated stored that played 40K and Warhammer. Instead of the places now that have a closet space and a roll of grass carpet for the table, while the rest of the store has umpteen million tables for fricken' MTG (no beef with MTG just a beef with current LGSs in the area.)
Plus there is no KoW, Warmachine, no Infinity, no nothing BUT MTG. There isn't even a FOW place, and I really don't want to play it. Even D&D/Pathfinder is still either a drive, or you go play at someone's house.
So really I'd go back to GW primarily if they opened a store within a 30-45 minute drive (even an hour would be fine. Ideally a 15 minute commute I'd be in heaven.) And they had dedicated gaming nights and open gaming on the weekends.
Another nice big slice of come back to me cake, would be going back to 3rd edition rules (for 40K at least) with some tweaks. And 20 US dollars paper back codexes and army books that stayed relevant for 8-10 years.
In a nutshell, everything that Mantic currently does better than them.
- Low prices. (£1/mini infantry, £1.50/mini elites, £2/mini cavalry, tanks for £15-20)
- Excellent free rules which are well-balanced, cater to tournament players and are reguarly updated.
- No throwing lawsuits at anything that moves.
I took a break from Warhammer for a while and what got me back into it was walking into a GW store in Virginia and talking to the staff who were gamers and were obviously excited about gaming. That's what got me back into it. I dusted off my SOB army and started collecting a whole new Imperial Fist army.
If GW wanted to get back in the game, they'd re-create such places, throw as many sponsored tournaments as they could and reach out to players of all kinds. (Yes, GW, even the veterans.)
scarletsquig wrote: In a nutshell, everything that Mantic currently does better than them.
- Low prices. (£1/mini infantry, £1.50/mini elites, £2/mini cavalry, tanks for £15-20)
- Excellent free rules which are well-balanced, cater to tournament players and are reguarly updated.
- No throwing lawsuits at anything that moves.
Yeah, basically. They don't even have to offer the rules for free (although it would be nice) but $70 for a rulebook and $50 for an army book/codex is ridiculous, especially when its clear that they purposely used hardcover and quality paper simply to raise the price to that level. Price things appropriately versus trying to milk money out of people with charging more for units that you don't use as much of, stop cheating people on the value versus price (I should not have to buy two boxes of a unit for WHFB to field a standard-sized unit; it should be one box = one standard sized unit), and of course fix the damn rules so it's not an arms race where whoever buys the biggest, baddest, most expensive toys gets an advantage because usually the most expensive units ($$$) are also the ones that can win games for you - see: Helldrake @ $75, Riptide @ $85, Wraithknight @ $115. It almost sounds like a bad scammy commercial trying to sell you expensive junk: "Space Marines getting into assault range and beating your Tau senseless? Do you wish you could blow up those pesky enemy tanks with no problems? Well you're in luck! Just purchase three Riptide battlesuits from your local GW today and show those genetically-enhanced humans the might of the greater good! All for the low price of $255! Order now!"
Even with the high prices, people still buy. But, to expand the existing player base, there would have to be a few things done.
1. Start with a moratorium on price increases for the near term. A price decrease would actually be bad for the market, especially for retailers who purchased based on the current price. Simply put new product out at existing price points and allow the economy's inflation to slowly catch up.
2. If Fantasy is to continue to need a higher model count than 40k, then there will need to be more models in the boxes instead of the 5 that match 40k boxes.
3. While tournament support is not required, the rules and supplements should be written with the understanding that people do play tournaments and want a fair game.
Breotan wrote: 1. Start with a moratorium on price increases for the near term. A price decrease would actually be bad for the market, especially for retailers who purchased based on the current price. Simply put new product out at existing price points and allow the economy's inflation to slowly catch up.
I'm not waiting 35 years for inflation to catch up with GW pricing.
I agree, a price decrease is pretty unlikely and you're right to point out how counter-productive it could be- I hadn't thought of that.
What they could do, and arguably this has already started, is offer new deals that are better value- new battleforces and so on.
What they need to do, over all, is make sure the quality of their releases is good. If they were to release some decent boxed games, I'd buy them. I'm sure lots of us would. I'm worried that Dreadfleet has scared them off doing that, and that they don't understand why Dreadfleet was a failure. Mantic has done very well with stuff like Project Pandora, Dwarf King's Hold and Deadzone, and that's with the myriad production and quality issues they've had. GW producing more sets like the Space Hulk re-release, would really get me buying. If they did a "hunter orc" bundle for the hobbit with a discount, I'd pick it up.
They have options to provide value or release things that don't require a total change of their production model or a drastic cut to prices.
A price decrease might have to come with an elimination of
their shops and a renewed partnership with existing retailers
and volunteers, but I don't see that happening. I think it would
be profitable, just not profitable to support a capitalist profit
seeking venture that seeks to grow sales exponentially over
the years.
What would bring me back would simply be having a good
reason to play with my models. Make the rules less random
and vague and more fun to play with whatever army you're
deciding to play with.
malfred wrote: A price decrease might have to come with an elimination of their shops and a renewed partnership with existing retailers and volunteers, but I don't see that happening. I think it would be profitable, just not profitable to support a capitalist profit seeking venture that seeks to grow sales exponentially over the years.......
A GW without shops overnight would be 1/10 of the size assuming it survived the transition - so about the size of PP. Pro rata it might be more profitable but not in in actual terms. So I agree not likely. The shops also constrain the price. They cannot reduce prices while the shops/property/rent represent so much of their cost and turnover. Property is wildly variable and GWs margin (10-11%) is soon impacted by rises. Also as a PLC the Managerscannot (intentionally ) smash the company stock they work for or the Law might be interested.
warboss wrote: What would it take for me? Depends on what you mean by "get back into Gw products". I have 20k worth of painted figs so stubbornly not using them only punishes me and not Gw. That said... I bought a single 40k figure in 2013 (Gamesday captain secondhand) and used to average one ARMY a year. 40k used to be my game of choice and now its my game of last resort that I bring an army for in case the other 2-3 games I want to play have no takers at the FLGS. What drove me away? Definitely the prices were the biggest push but the craptacular finecast rollout along with my general dislike for 6th edition were the final nails in that coffin. I sold off almost all my unpainted or unwanted figs from superheavies to basic infantry and I'm left with 99.9% painted armies that each fit in a large single carrying case each...........
See now I think that this is the rub of it. I'm like warboss here but see it from a different angle. I have plenty of minis and armies kicking about (not 20k's worth!) and not great desire to pick up a new one - the occasional update or rulebook but that's it. I'm very much the reason why GW do not target vets as much as new gamers. I can afford their products so the prices don't bother me so much I just don't need them (for the most part).
So I suppose my main gripe would be that they have become so staid, more unit for existing armies isn't really innovation for me. Just 3 systems doesn't cut it and they have released some good rulesets in the last decade but not for their main game. The various Historical rulesets based off of Warmaster or the LoTRs rules (the Legends series) and the excellent Kampfe Groupe Normandie (missed out on 28mm WW2 there fellers!) have all come and gone and some are now being very successful for other companies. So I would see this change, not the reintroduction of historicals (that ship has sailed) so much as the release of other games. Spulk, Gorka Morka, Necromunda etc were good intros to newbs but also a boon to busy professionals/parents that have limited time to game like me. The odd time these get released I snap up a copy, that even meant a copy of Dreadfleet!
Also the old barmy silliness that has been lost. Not likely in a corporation but I'm sure they can find a consultant or something.....
I entered GW products with Talisman and Space Crusade. Still have both buying the original sets even though I am rebuying the new Talisman set for my nephew.
I still play games a lot and always will, but playing Warhammer is getting harder and harder to get a game.
Number one on the list is getting a player base. It doesn't matter what they do if I have no one to game with. So making it more accessible to people beginning is first and foremost.
Stop the embargo bs and support local clubs will bring way more profits in the long run down in OZ.
We used to be a very lucrative market for them but peeps have moved on due to the policies of GW over the last few years.
Then comes writing balanced rules and having no codex significantly overpowered.
I don't deny that there isn't a price problem in Australasia but are these not mutually exclusive. Local resources cannot compete when being undercut from abroad?
I don't deny that there isn't a price problem in Australasia but are these not mutually exclusive. Local resources cannot compete when being undercut from abroad?
Good question Notprop. My personal opinion is that our local games shops can compete because they cover many games: Table top, card games, board games and jigsaw puzzles (my wife is a mad fan of these).
I can only speak for myself who spends about $5000 (sometimes more but never less a year of war gaming /puzzles/ board games and since the embargo I have purchased nothing from GW. That said I have bought from forge world however I am spending far more on board games, infinity and warmahordes these days because I feel jilted by a company that I adored.
Still got all my armies from day dot ( my second ed orcs are my favourite but they never see play time these days)
The independents are doing great in my home city but they don't rely on GW sales. It would seem that the GW hobby is diminishing down here.
notprop wrote: I don't deny that there isn't a price problem in Australasia but are these not mutually exclusive. Local resources cannot compete when being undercut from abroad?
Local stores were only being undercut because Games Workshop is ripping them off. If Australian wholesale was UK wholesale + shipping instead of UK wholesale + 100%, local stores wouldn't be at such a disadvantage.
I haven't really played anything else than GW's games since I took up the miniature wargaming hobby, mostly because 40K takes up all the time I have for painting and gaming.
I purchased most of my miniatures years ago, and the models that I have purchased the last two years, I have either bought used from other players, ordered from eBay, converted, or purchased as OOP from resellers.
I think the reason why I don't feel like I have been ripped of, is because none of the armies I play have been updated since at least 2009 when I begun, and because I purchased most of what I have back then, I haven't really been hit by price hikes.
The only thing I have noticed is that almost all of their rule book releases since 6th edition have been worthless to me. They have gone up in price and down in content, so the only two books I have purchased from GW is the 6th edition hardback and the new Apocalypse rules.
Right now I'm being tempted to get into either Malifaux or FoW, so that means if GW starts making mistakes with either updating Orks or IG, I probably won't be buying a lot of their stuff in the future.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
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Ruberu wrote: I would probably start a new army if they stopped lowering the model count and increasing the price tag. The Cadians are my example. I love IG and want more, but $29 for a box of ten that used to cost $35 for a box of 20ish is outrageous. Plus the pay to win aspect of it, I dont want to have to buy a AA unit to take out a flyer that almost every army has now, Maybe make my pintle mounted gun on my Russ AA.
Plus the codex change to much and their price. I have a German army in FoW and am on my second book. First book cost me 20, second cost me 20. I've had 4 space marine books now, first 15, then 20, then 25ish, then 30ish and now its going to cost me 60ish when a hard cover comes out.
When they first changed the box we found out is was the same price due to the heavy weapon. It was 16 for $35 and then you had to add on 2 heavies for $17 a piece. That comes to $29 per unit (well, 29.50 a unit so I guess you save a $1 with the new structure if you buy 2 units). I think what you are looking at is that you want more satisfaction from your purchases. What could GW offer in their boxes to increase your satisfaction? GW should try to balance that with their pricing structure.
They could start by offering a way to get a decent beginner army without spending $400 or more. I don't mind paying for big bad additional units, but the initial cost to get beyond a bare minimum demo game 1 HQ and 2 Troops is astronomical and has totally soured me on even bothering, because I don't want to fork out that much money just to get the bare minimum that other people at the store will play.
Offer me a boxed army for under $200 that has a 750-1000 point army with a good selection of units to make a well-rounded force, and throw in the codex for free. Something like the Space Marine Strikeforce boxed set but about $50 cheaper and maybe with a little better selection. I'd be much more likely to collect an army (or in my case even bother to play) if I could get a starting force for $175 or so and have enough to play entry-level points games while fleshing out the list.
First off, they would need to reduce the size of the game. I want to be able to manuever and not just pack the board with models. That means increasing points per model and using fewer models.
Reducing the size of the game would also reduce the start-up costs.
Two, they need to completely redo the turn sequence. IGOUGO is old and outdated. Plus, it is boring. This needs to change to alternate activation at the minimum.
Three, they need to actually start making games again. I want to explore the 40K and Fantasy universe and the main battle games are not the only/best way to do that,
First off, they would need to reduce the size of the game. I want to be able to manuever and not just pack the board with models. That means increasing points per model and using fewer models.
Reducing the size of the game would also reduce the start-up costs.
This one always confuses me. The players drive the size of games (beyond the lesser effect of in-game unit minimum points costs), I'm not sure of where GW states the game is for X points and X points only. I firmly believe that 40k plays best at 1000-1500 points on a 6'x4' table but 1500 would appear to be the minimum that most organised events are for. People just want to play with all their toys I suppose.
Three, they need to actually start making games again. I want to explore the 40K and Fantasy universe and the main battle games are not the only/best way to do that,
Tru dat. Let the LotR licence expire and give me Epic 30,000 first and Mordheim/Necromunda redux to follow. All with glorious new plastic terrain!
First off, they would need to reduce the size of the game. I want to be able to manuever and not just pack the board with models. That means increasing points per model and using fewer models.
Reducing the size of the game would also reduce the start-up costs.
Two, they need to completely redo the turn sequence. IGOUGO is old and outdated. Plus, it is boring. This needs to change to alternate activation at the minimum.
Three, they need to actually start making games again. I want to explore the 40K and Fantasy universe and the main battle games are not the only/best way to do that,
I would agree with your first point, to a point. I think that armies like Guard, in many ways NEED the large numbers on the board. Though that said, perhaps, as a compromise on this aspect, they can have more easily variable table sizes, based on model counts?
I think that many other games have figured out decent, or better ways of doing turn sequence. Heck, I wouldn't mind a DnD style "initiative check" to determine who goes in what order.
I DEFINITELY agree with three. While I never played BFG or any of the current RPGs out there, I did like the idea of BFG and even Epic, and wish there were more current ways to get into those games.
boyd wrote: Is the price parity between other counties due to a tariff?
"Disparity". And no, it's not. There is no tariff on Games Workshop's products entering Australia. Prices should actually be 10% cheaper in Australia, because we only pay a 10% GST and not a 20% VAT.
Da Boss wrote: I'm perplexed at the number of people who want LOTR to be dropped.
Wouldn't it be better for them to make money off it by doing it well?
Can it be done well? Lord of the Rings never offered anywhere near as much freedom to the player as 40k does in terms of flavour - it was about somebody else's characters, not your own. That was fine when we were talking about the Lord of the Rings, but the Hobbit is twice as long as it should be - if not four times - and nowhere near as good.
Well, I certainly enjoy the game, just not the prices. It's a heroic skirmish in a relatively low fantasy setting. The rules are solid and lots of the models are nice for people who like their fantasy "classical".
Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it needs to be dropped. It was a good moneymaker for GW when they were dealing with it properly- ie. when it was well marketed and priced.
I'm not a fan of the OTT grimdark that is modern 40K, but I don't want it do disappear because of that- I just don't play or buy things for it much any more. It seems churlish to want other people's fun to disappear just because you don't like it.
Edit: The movies, of course, are a different kettle of fish. Lots of mistakes made there.
I always find it interesting, the undercurrent on many forums of "when I'm talking about GW I'm talking about 40k." I know that it is now the money maker for GW, just an interesting observation.
40k really just needs to have the rules tightened up, with a an available low cost entry that will get new customers hooked on the hobby.
However, I strongly think that Warhammer and The Hobbit is where GW needs to make changes. I really don't know what could be done for The Hobbit, I think it's a smart system, some of the models are just priced insane.
For Warhammer GW needs to bring the soul of that setting back. Everyone seems to say, "Well Warhammer just seems like generic fantasy." I feel like that is far from the truth.
In the end, I don't think it would take much to bring me back. GW just doesn't want to make the effort. Fine, I'll go give my money to Warlord Games.
I haven't left, but I guarantee that 99.9% of everyone who posts a reply will say...
"Price reduction"
I do think their prices are getting to be grossly absurd. I really wanted to do another Tyranid army when the new codex dropped, but the new kit prices are keeping me from doing it. Even after discounts from an online retailer, it's too much. I've finally reached my breaking point, I didn't think I had one, but apparently I do and GW's hit the mark.
I will continue to play 40K, but I will only lightly expand upon the armies I already have.
GW needs to make a 20% cut in their MSRP pricing across the board and a 25% cut for all newer kits (i.e. Tyanids, Space Marines, Eldar, Tau).
the prices are mostly OK with more and more standouts. many of the big kits, sternguard, witch elves etc are way overpriced for unknown reasons.
they should bring the overpriced kits in line with the rest and it would be fine.
i dont care how much they dress them up or how many dust jackets they put on it, the rules books otoh are stupidly overpriced for some copy paste from the last book garbage rule set. i would not even pay 20 dollars for most of these new codexs in their current state.
As miniatures can be comparably priced by competitors that are doing quite well like Infinity, Warmachine, etc., I think it's fair to say that there's something about the whole package that GW offers that makes their prices out of line. It's probably a combination of high model counts, codex numbers and figures per kit not lining up and a variety of other factors that make the prices seem so ridiculous.
It's like their rules are actively devaluing their miniatures, the way they package their miniatures is sub-optimal for the rules and the whole thing is presented as a money grind from the starter product on. Super expensive rulebooks, high price ebooks, day 0 DLC, etc., etc.,,
The only way I'd get back in is a complete and total overhall of every aspect of how GW approaches the market. As long as independant stores have to deal with GW directly rather than being able to order through distributors who don't try to dictate terms, I will NEVER buy another one of their products.
Overhall of the games.
Overhall of kits to make sense in terms of number of figures per sprue with the new overhalled rules.
Overhall of how products are sold and distributed.
Overhall of their legal strategy
No purchases until all that happens.
Prices? I don't think they need to cut the cost per kit, but instead offer an effective price cut by offering more figures per sprue and by designing sprues to be the best possible value for the customer rather than the best value for GW at the customer's expense.
Crazy, I know, offering a solid product at an appropriate price. What am I thinking?
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
I don't see how that works. The model would cost the same to produce. The profit margins would be smaller. I think they should be focusing on getting more customers into the hobby than gauging the customer on every purchase.
Not that it matters the question isn't what should gw do to get more business. It is what would they have to do to get me to start buying them. Around a 50% maybe 40% cut in prices would make their models a decent value for money for me. At the moment they are not.
I said it at the start of the thread but I'll say it again, the prices don't need to actually drop.Yes it would be nice but realistically at this point it would be a very risky move for GW.
Instead they need to drastically raise the perceived value of their models. They are far from the best on the market and recently even their plastics have taken a hard hit with things like witch elves and shadow warriors, they are for all intents and purposed 5 monopose plastics in a unit of 10-40. Monopose (or close to it) plastics just plain suck.
As well there is the mess that is their game. Quite often recently I've seen models and thought 'oh wow, those are lovely (these aren't GW ones) but I have no use for them'. Everything I think that about I could easily work into either 40k or fantasy but I'm dismissing such thoughts out of hand because I have no interest in trying to muddle though those rulesets any more.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
I don't see how that works. The model would cost the same to produce. The profit margins would be smaller. I think they should be focusing on getting more customers into the hobby than gauging the customer on every purchase.
Not that it matters the question isn't what should gw do to get more business. It is what would they have to do to get me to start buying them. Around a 50% maybe 40% cut in prices would make their models a decent value for money for me. At the moment they are not.
Lets say it costs $1 to produce a model, $1 to ship, and $1 in labor. Their G&A remains the same. If the model cost $10, they would have a $7 margin to cover their G&A expenses. Cut the price to $5 and they have a $2 Marin to work with. Now, to meet the expected demand because you will sell more, your G&A will increase because head count will increase. Mind you this would be labor for people not associated with manufacturing the product but people indirectly associated (ware houses, shop staff, management to oversee new employees, etc.). Next, to meet the new demand, you either have to get new machines to make the product (large capital outlays - debt? - GW currently has none other than trade payables disclosed in their statements). Next new labor or overtime to meet demand (unless the UK doesn't have over time laws like the US) which would mean an increase in their $1 per unit metric. Making more doesn't necessarily mean its cheaper because you have to store excess product that doesn't move which means larger ware houses, more utilities, and more labor. That's why sharp cuts won't happen, why you may see a small cut but nothing drastic. It's like the US healthcare system - try to make too many changes and now you can't figure out what worked and what didn't.
I think you will see prices change and several decreases on products but it will be about 10% or so. Nothing more than that over the next 6 months and they will probably offer several deals.
If they are smart, they will update their rule set for fantasy to test the waters. Offer the changes on their website like they did with the change to 4th edition. Gauge interest and tweak them based on feed back.
As far as the forums go, they dropped them because of a handful of bad apples (same with their face book account). If you want to communicate with them about their business practices, contact their investor relations. You don't have to flame their forums. Go on PP and complain about something they did. See how fast the thread gets locked and deleted. If you have a concern contact them directly. The other issue was their language filter - their forum would block any post using inappropriate language. While technology has changed in the 9 years since they had a forum, I think they should do it and just flag key words as inappropriate.
If you really don't like the way management is doing things, buy shares and form a group. Put together a list of demands you want management to address. Get the names of share holders to sign it and list the number of shares they have. At the end of the day, management will respond if you were to say you have 3% of the company making a specific inquiry. Contact them first for a response and tell them you want to know something specific by a deadline. If that fails, contact a news paper in the UK that discusses them in the finance section. They have analysts who follow them. Have them ask the question and now it's open in the public. I've got stock so you can count me in if you go this route. Just please don't go the route of an online petition as a group of concerned customers. It has more clout from a share holder as you are actually able to question their ability to lead and back up what you say by voting against them if necessary. 3-5% of the total shareholders could also get someone on their board if you position someone with the right background and experience in say running an independent shop.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
I don't see how that works. The model would cost the same to produce. The profit margins would be smaller. I think they should be focusing on getting more customers into the hobby than gauging the customer on every purchase.
Not that it matters the question isn't what should gw do to get more business. It is what would they have to do to get me to start buying them. Around a 50% maybe 40% cut in prices would make their models a decent value for money for me. At the moment they are not.
the prices are fine. 33 US for 5 sanguinary guard is fair. buy from a discounter that figure drops to 25 bucks. which is a fair price IMO. i would not raise it more, i wouldn't drop it lower either.
gouging people by region is what needs to go. im not liking gouging people for new overpowered stuff either. compared to sanguinary guard, they are asking seventeen dollars more for sternguard for some unknown reason. all fiveman kits should be the same price, and 50 is too much. Leave it at 35, get rid of regional pricing and most of us will be happy.
wanting 50% off is just getting greedy on your side.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
I don't see how that works. The model would cost the same to produce. The profit margins would be smaller. I think they should be focusing on getting more customers into the hobby than gauging the customer on every purchase.
Not that it matters the question isn't what should gw do to get more business. It is what would they have to do to get me to start buying them. Around a 50% maybe 40% cut in prices would make their models a decent value for money for me. At the moment they are not.
the prices are fine. 33 US for 5 sanguinary guard is fair. buy from a discounter that figure drops to 25 bucks. which is a fair price IMO. i would not raise it more, i wouldn't drop it lower either.
gouging people by region is what needs to go. im not liking gouging people for new overpowered stuff either. compared to sanguinary guard, they are asking seventeen dollars more for sternguard for some unknown reason. all fiveman kits should be the same price, and 50 is too much. Leave it at 35, get rid of regional pricing and most of us will be happy.
wanting 50% off is just getting greedy on your side.
Could be tariffs for the unequal pricing. I don't want to pay more in the US because Canada or Australia charges a larger tariff. Same with the people in the UK - they shouldn't suffer because exporting the product costs more.
So I suppose my main gripe would be that they have become so staid, more unit for existing armies isn't really innovation for me. Just 3 systems doesn't cut it and they have released some good rulesets in the last decade but not for their main game. The various Historical rulesets based off of Warmaster or the LoTRs rules (the Legends series) and the excellent Kampfe Groupe Normandie (missed out on 28mm WW2 there fellers!) have all come and gone and some are now being very successful for other companies. So I would see this change, not the reintroduction of historicals (that ship has sailed) so much as the release of other games. Spulk, Gorka Morka, Necromunda etc were good intros to newbs but also a boon to busy professionals/parents that have limited time to game like me. The odd time these get released I snap up a copy, that even meant a copy of Dreadfleet!
That's pretty much it for me also. If they put the 'Games' back into 'Games Workshop' - bring back some of the dynamism and creativity that made them the biggest company in the sci-fi/fantasy industry, and move beyond just re-releasing the same 3 games. Let the talented guys they have working with them exercise their creative muscle beyond what the suits dictate will make the largest margin. Help support the independents rather than declare war on them, realise that the wargaming hobby is in this together against the increasing number of options for kids free time, and that ultimately they are in the most important position to help realise that ambition.
TBH I know some of the changes within GW have come with the changes in myself. The core games have become increasingly targeted at kids (it's certainly lost its 'adult' edge - I won't say out and out 'childish' although some of those new kits are just so damned toy-like) as I myself have grown older. And, of course there is the same issue of playing the same game for 20 years, when you start realising the rules changes have reverted to a system used 2 editions ago. I don't listen to the same albums, play the same computer games over and over again through a long periods of time - why should the same be expected of wargaming?
But regardless of all of this, the biggest barrier right now is probably entry price. There is no real way an average middle class kid can get an army from scratch, of the points value and composition that GW intend. It was hard enough when I got into games more than 20 years ago, with a hell of a lot more skirmish and board-game type releases from GW available back then. I couldn't even imagine it if I was growing up now.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
I don't see how that works. The model would cost the same to produce. The profit margins would be smaller. I think they should be focusing on getting more customers into the hobby than gauging the customer on every purchase.
Not that it matters the question isn't what should gw do to get more business. It is what would they have to do to get me to start buying them. Around a 50% maybe 40% cut in prices would make their models a decent value for money for me. At the moment they are not.
the prices are fine. 33 US for 5 sanguinary guard is fair. buy from a discounter that figure drops to 25 bucks. which is a fair price IMO. i would not raise it more, i wouldn't drop it lower either.
gouging people by region is what needs to go. im not liking gouging people for new overpowered stuff either. compared to sanguinary guard, they are asking seventeen dollars more for sternguard for some unknown reason. all fiveman kits should be the same price, and 50 is too much. Leave it at 35, get rid of regional pricing and most of us will be happy.
wanting 50% off is just getting greedy on your side.
Could be tariffs for the unequal pricing. I don't want to pay more in the US because Canada or Australia charges a larger tariff. Same with the people in the UK - they shouldn't suffer because exporting the product costs more.
everyone knows it harks back to the exchange rates from the 90s.
I also agree with the rest of your post; I'd spend more if the kits were...well, better or had more stuff. If the Basilisk was ~$5-10 cheaper and was a dual kit for the Medusa as well with bits for every upgrade, I'd be all over it.
I mean, imagine a plastic closed cabin bassie/medusa. It'd be a thing of beauty.
*Edit* Also, as a Mordian player, I either spend $50 per squad of 10 with no special weapons, or spend the same amount at Vic Minis for 'not-Mordians' that are fully posable multi-part resin with a huge amount of options.
Sorry, but all items shipped from GW US to Canada qualify as NAFTA goods are exempt from that tariff. They just put proper NAFTA documentation on their commercial invoice and no tariff, just GST/PST/HST. I used to do customs clearance as a job and have helped a local store with their GW shipments after they set up their account. Whether or not sprues shipped to GW US and then boxed there should count as NAFTA goods is another debate.
We'll see once the trade sales is moved to Lenton if they'll ship to each store across the Atlantic or if they'll still use their US distribution centre.
They would have to first show they are willing to listen to their customers:
- Play test new codexes and models.
- Have the company be more open in what they have planned for the future.
- If they are going to keep the prices as is, provide more models per box.
- Make the game less about massive (expensive) models and more about having fun.
I'm likely to buy specialist games for a reasonable price (£30-40), or buy into a smaller scale WHF (maybe Mordheim sized or something between Mordheim and WHF).
Reduced prices may get me to start a new army in WHF/40K, but I think a good ruleset would help. 40K feels like a bit of a slog at the moment with the constant referring back to the book.
In regards to the rules, I actually think the main ruleset is solid. What screws it up are the individual army rules and their constant contradiction to BRB rules and other codex rules.
Personally I am finding it really hard to answer this question. I backed away in 2005 because of the way the LotR game (my initial draw) went, and stopped buying completely in 2007. However I have 2 sons who both saw "daddy's toys" and wanted models of their own, and as they got older had friends who were into GW and so I got dragged back by them. However, the eldest is 13 and decided he's no longer interested and the 11 year-old youngest is more excited by the stuff coming out of Mantic these days - he can't be bothered to get his head around 40k or WFB's rules and sees what his pocket money will buy him from GW, and reacts accordingly.
So I think for me it would have to be a root and branch change. 40k and WFB would have to be revised so that they were pretty much unrecognizable compared to the current editions which in my view are huge, bloated, unplayable monstrosities of games. Prices oif course would have to be reduced, I can give a percentage as GW's prices are all over the place, but 50p for a plastic trooper seems reasonable £3 for a hero. Obviously vehicles and larger kits would be more, but there's no way I'm paying more than £20 for a big tank. £10 for a smaller vehicle like a rhino seems reasonable to me. For plastic. Resin i'd pay more.
A big killer for me though is that they no longer make metal models. Plastic toys just don't cut it for me unless they are super-cheap. I don't buy plastic because in anway they have quality. I buy plastic because it is often the only affordable way to build a sizeable army for a given system. Given the choice I much prefer metal. Plastic has the association of "mass produced, cheap". It reminds me of the old boxes of airfix models I had as a kid, and metal reminds me that actually I'm no longer a kid and there is something more to the models than little toys I played with on the carpet as a 7 year-old. If they brought back metal for character models, and didn't charge the earth, I could be possibly persuaded to part with the odd £1 or to. But I'm never going to pay £10, £15, £20 for a hero model. £5 is my absolute limit, and that has to be something pretty special.
The final nail in the coffin though is overall "fun". these days there is just an atmosphere of despair around all things GW. They have betrayed the community on so many levels, over such a long period of time and to such a degree that I feel like a spurned lover. Even if they came back crawling on their knees, I fear that my response would be to kick them in the face, not embrace them. It is strange to feel this way over a commercial company, but it is the way I feel, and judging by the comments on this and other forums, I am not alone in this somewhat irrational hatred.
Osbad wrote: Personally I am finding it really hard to answer this question. I backed away in 2005 because of the way the LotR game (my initial draw) went, and stopped buying completely in 2007. However I have 2 sons who both saw "daddy's toys" and wanted models of their own, and as they got older had friends who were into GW and so I got dragged back by them. However, the eldest is 13 and decided he's no longer interested and the 11 year-old youngest is more excited by the stuff coming out of Mantic these days - he can't be bothered to get his head around 40k or WFB's rules and sees what his pocket money will buy him from GW, and reacts accordingly.
So I think for me it would have to be a root and branch change. 40k and WFB would have to be revised so that they were pretty much unrecognizable compared to the current editions which in my view are huge, bloated, unplayable monstrosities of games. Prices oif course would have to be reduced, I can give a percentage as GW's prices are all over the place, but 50p for a plastic trooper seems reasonable £3 for a hero. Obviously vehicles and larger kits would be more, but there's no way I'm paying more than £20 for a big tank. £10 for a smaller vehicle like a rhino seems reasonable to me. For plastic. Resin i'd pay more.
A big killer for me though is that they no longer make metal models. Plastic toys just don't cut it for me unless they are super-cheap. I don't buy plastic because in anway they have quality. I buy plastic because it is often the only affordable way to build a sizeable army for a given system. Given the choice I much prefer metal. Plastic has the association of "mass produced, cheap". It reminds me of the old boxes of airfix models I had as a kid, and metal reminds me that actually I'm no longer a kid and there is something more to the models than little toys I played with on the carpet as a 7 year-old. If they brought back metal for character models, and didn't charge the earth, I could be possibly persuaded to part with the odd £1 or to. But I'm never going to pay £10, £15, £20 for a hero model. £5 is my absolute limit, and that has to be something pretty special.
The final nail in the coffin though is overall "fun". these days there is just an atmosphere of despair around all things GW. They have betrayed the community on so many levels, over such a long period of time and to such a degree that I feel like a spurned lover. Even if they came back crawling on their knees, I fear that my response would be to kick them in the face, not embrace them. It is strange to feel this way over a commercial company, but it is the way I feel, and judging by the comments on this and other forums, I am not alone in this somewhat irrational hatred.
I might be wrong but I can't ever remember a price point you are asking for during my two decades in the hobby. When I bought my first pewter Dwarf Lord in 1997 it was $12.99, which at the time was 9 or 10 pounds.
In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet. People are more likely to flock to the internet to complain about a company rather than sing it's praises. I love my Ford F150, but I don't go to the internet forums to tell everyone I love it. However, when it had an electrical issue, I went to the internet and found several forums of people complaining about the same issue and hating on the car. People that owned competitor trucks chastizing owners of the F150. If I were to base everything I think about my car based on internet forums, I would assume it's the worst car ever made and it's going to be out of production. In reality, it's the top selling vehicle in the US. A better analogy is Apple and their products. They are priced at a premium, where you can find competitors options that often do the same thing or more for much less, and there is a ravenous internet community of defenders and detractors of their products.
I think the same can be said about GW. When you are one of the world's largest table top wargaming companies and they are priced at a premium, you are going to have some detractors, and people singing the praises of the competition. Up until I started reading forums a few years back, I had no idea there was such an anti-GW community out there. Most complaints locally were about increasing prices. Even now, the only time I see people really complaining about GW is on the internet. I have lived all over the United States in 7 different states in cities large and small, and no real complaints outside of the hobby being expensive (which it always has been). My community now has about 60 active players, and out of that maybe 6 or 7 take any part in the online wargaming community. While some of them do take issue with GW, and some have stopped playing and gone over to products like Privateer Press, the vast majority still love the hobby.
riburn3 wrote: In regards to the rules, I actually think the main ruleset is solid. What screws it up are the individual army rules and their constant contradiction to BRB rules and other codex rules.
That's still the fault of the core rules to some extent. If you have a solid basic ruleset where the steps of doing something are clearly defined, then you can hang new rules from that or create exceptions to them without any problem.
For example: In Warmachine, there are several stages that a model goes through when it loses it's last damage point, and different effects trigger at each one. Most of the time, it doesn't matter (loses all damage, take it off the table) but sometimes it does. Say I have a model that explodes when it dies, that gets killed by a model that heals damage when it kills something. I can check the order of sequences to see which effect goes off and which doesn't.
Compare that to the 40K question of "Does Entropic Strike trigger if the model was wounded but makes a Feel No Pain roll?", which went on for several torrid pages in YMDC, mainly because the rulebook was fuzzy on whether a model that passes FNP suffers an actual wound at any point (I think). Fold armour and FNP into the to-wound roll, instead of the odd "Damaged but you may be retroactively not damaged." system.
An even release schedule would help with this problem a lot. Codexes shouldn't have to play roulette every time a new edition comes out, and factions shouldn't languish in the vicious circle of "not selling because they're neglected, neglected because they're not selling", and editions wouldn't need to compatible with army books that might be up to a decade old. Release the edition and a basic form of the army lists, in the style of Ravening Hordes. Release army books for the new edition. And then release new books that have something for all the factions (or half the factions) at once.
riburn3 wrote: In regards to the rules, I actually think the main ruleset is solid. What screws it up are the individual army rules and their constant contradiction to BRB rules and other codex rules.
That's still the fault of the core rules to some extent. If you have a solid basic ruleset where the steps of doing something are clearly defined, then you can hang new rules from that or create exceptions to them without any problem.
For example: In Warmachine, there are several stages that a model goes through when it loses it's last damage point, and different effects trigger at each one. Most of the time, it doesn't matter (loses all damage, take it off the table) but sometimes it does. Say I have a model that explodes when it dies, that gets killed by a model that heals damage when it kills something. I can check the order of sequences to see which effect goes off and which doesn't.
Compare that to the 40K question of "Does Entropic Strike trigger if the model was wounded but makes a Feel No Pain roll?", which went on for several torrid pages in YMDC, mainly because the rulebook was fuzzy on whether a model that passes FNP suffers an actual wound at any point (I think). Fold armour and FNP into the to-wound roll, instead of the odd "Damaged but you may be retroactively not damaged." system.
I get what you're saying, but the larger issue with the individual books is that they are all written by different people and often introduce a new mechanic such as entropic strike, that introduces a rule completely left out of the larger game. Warmachine is a tighter rule set, but that was one of the intents when the game was made. In Warhammer, in the first couple of pages they tell you to roll off if there is a rules dispute without clarity. That right there should be a heads up that not everything will be perfect, especially playing a game that has newer editions with older edition codex books that require backwards/forwards compatibility. Most rational people are able to come to a logical conclusion on the rules and get over it with a rule as intended philosophy, and never think about it again. Some people can't do that so easily so they then spend hours on the internet arguing the minutia of a game that was never built to be super serious business.
I might be wrong but I can't ever remember a price point you are asking for during my two decades in the hobby. When I bought my first pewter Dwarf Lord in 1997 it was $12.99, which at the time was 9 or 10 pounds.
I wouldn't deny it. I remember my first Citadel model was a dwarf from the Fantasy Tribes line. It cost me 25p, which was about a quarter of my weekly pocket money. That felt expensive then, back in 1985! However, there are companies who produce models for the prices I am prepared to pay, and in metal too. Just Citadel aren't one of them.
riburn3 wrote: In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet.
I certainly think it is prevalent on the net, which tends to act as a focus for negative emotion in many ways. However, my personal experience is that it is more than just that. I remember lots of fun events - Games Day, store based stuff, White Dwarf's 30th anniversary party - with cake! All of that was exuberant fun which made you want to spend time hanging around GW. None of that exists any more. Any fun that remains around the 40k and WFB brands is the tail end of GW's involvement at Warhammer World (can you see Warhammer World being constructed if 2004 had been now though?) and what clubs are able to generate internally themselves. I am not decrying those aspects - they are still fun.
Also White Dwarf, Citadel Journal, Fanatic Magazine. Etc. All of those had an element of fun about them. Now the atmosphere WD for the last few years has just been.... sterile. A sort of fun that just isn't.
that's what I'm feeling. When I was a kid, back in the late 80's there was a vibe around GW that drew me in. Nowadays there's nothing comparable that attracts my own kids who are the age now I was then. Sure the world has changed, but it's not all down to Xbox and PS4. There is definitely a different atmosphere. GW is simply a business now, not a hobby centre. And that is fundamentally unattractive to little boys!
riburn3 wrote: I get what you're saying, but the larger issue with the individual books is that they are all written by different people and often introduce a new mechanic such as entropic strike, that introduces a rule completely left out of the larger game..
You're missing the point. It's because Warmachine has clear steps for things like attacking or killing a model that new rules can be grafted onto the game so easily. For example, when the Convergence faction came out for Warmachine, they worked quite differently from other armies, but were easily integrated into the game. Their warjacks can pass focus to each other, but because the wording of how they do it has clear meanings, it's easy to see how it works and interacts with existing effects. For example, if I cause Disruption to one of them, does that prevent it getting focus in this way? The system uses the word "allocate", and Disruption stops "allocation", so it is indeed prevented. For a simpler example, their robotic infantry have an existing special rule called "construct" that says they're not living models. So when I'm checking if they're immune to a certain effect, I just see if that rule specifies living models.
Because the basic rules are there, new additions can be hung from that ruleset without needing to re-invent the wheel and leave ambiguities open when two special rules conflict.
riburn3 wrote: Warmachine is a tighter rule set, but that was one of the intents when the game was made. In Warhammer, in the first couple of pages they tell you to roll off if there is a rules dispute without clarity. That right there should be a heads up that not everything will be perfect, especially playing a game that has newer editions with older edition codex books that require backwards/forwards compatibility. Most rational people are able to come to a logical conclusion on the rules and get over it with a rule as intended philosophy, and never think about it again. Some people can't do that so easily so they then spend hours on the internet arguing the minutia of a game that was never built to be super serious business.
That's a dodge. 40K has had four editions where the basic rules are the same, but they still can't get it right? I don't believe that GW couldn't do that if they wanted to. 40K is not more varied or out-there in terms of rules than Warmachine or Infinity is.
If a rules set is balanced and tight, nobody loses. There seems to be a notion out there that players of more balanced games are grim, WAAC types who can't just chill out and have fun. Actually, they're much like playing 40K, except that rules arguments are resolved by checking what the rules say, rather than "cheat on a 4+", and there's less social pressure not to bring an army that's "too good".
First off, they would need to reduce the size of the game. I want to be able to manuever and not just pack the board with models. That means increasing points per model and using fewer models.
Reducing the size of the game would also reduce the start-up costs.
Two, they need to completely redo the turn sequence. IGOUGO is old and outdated. Plus, it is boring. This needs to change to alternate activation at the minimum.
Three, they need to actually start making games again. I want to explore the 40K and Fantasy universe and the main battle games are not the only/best way to do that,
Sorry to quote myself, but I wanted to add -on to what I said earlier and an edit would just get lost.
The Fourth thing I would like to see would be a return to the "Cult" marketing philosophy that had earlier on. IN this marketing model, you let your loyal followers get a glimpse inside the "inner workings" of the product. You help them feel like they are part of the company by introducing them and letting them get to know the personalities of the key design people. It helps people feel like they are part of something larger and appeals to their need for Status in a relatively low status hobby. With such a strategy you don't earn and build customers, but hobbyists. This is some of the "vibe" that Osbad is talking about.
GW has moved away from this marketing ethos to something else. Now, they only try to employ Push marketing methods and try to force feed everything from on-high down to the base. The natural reaction to such a marketing process is for the customer to gag.
erratyk wrote: As I haven't bought anything GW in 2 years other than a single box of deathwing knights and a codex from my FLGS when the new DA codex came out, I'd have to say a price cut, AS WELL as bringing market prices in line with the rest of North America.
The Canadian dollar is almost on par with the US, but we have a 20% markup on everything. As such I have to get a 20% discount at my FLGS just to bring the prices on par to US MRSP prices, which is crazy.
And that's just to buy their product. It would be another thing entirely to get me to step into there shops again to buy my plastic crack
What have you been watching recently? The Canadian Dollar is no where near par. in fact it is on a downward spiral for the last 4 months. Today we are at $1.10 which is a large price gap. The CAD is not strong. We had a fluke couple years. GW prices products fine for us Canadians.
Easy E wrote: This is some of the "vibe" that Osbad is talking about.
Yes, it is.
I recently got in big on Mantic's Deadzone Kickstarter, and I've been playing and buying models for Kings of War for years, and my 2 lads have got in on both games too. What appeals to me about them, and has kept me interested, positive, and buying (just bought Project Pandora today as it happens!) is more than the quality of the rules (which do appeal) or the models (which I tend to find value for money - lower prices on the whole than many others and reasonable, if not outstanding, quality) is the general atmosphere and "vibe". Partly indeed that stems from the Pathfinder community that you see out and about at shows and events (even the little regional ones we tend to have here in the UK in lieu of a large independent network of FLGS's: such as Smoggycon and Border Reiver in the North East of England). That is certainly a positive effect of Mantic's approach to the issue.
I'm not trying to provoke a Mantic>GW discussion here, as I know Mantic aren't perfect and there were various issues with the KoW kickstarter for instance. But there is one clear difference in this regard in that Mantic do *give the impression* that they care about the hobbyists that buy their stuff a lot more than GW, and are therefore practicing a model that GW used to but do no longer. Pathfinders are one aspect. Open Days where you actually get to play games and see new stuff and have whacky fun are another (I went to the one in May 2013 and it was excellent - compare that to 2013's Games Day and the news that not even that will take place in 2014!). Also their staff are regularly on social media - Facebook, Twitter, Youtube. And engage in Unboxings, blogs, interviews with Beasts of War etc. They even support a fanzine: Ironwatch which is edited and produced for free by a fan, but with official support and endorsement by the company! It costs them little (in fact the fanzine saves them money and meant that they could axe the Mantic Journal which was a bit of a commercial faliure), but it generates such positive PR that really creates a positive buzz around the company and its products. Lots of externalities.
Now, Mantic is a much smaller company than GW, but it has such a different vibe that it is unreal. And this is something that others have mentioned before. Ever since the forums were closed down in a response to the level of outcry to the jiggering of White Dwarf issue 316 back in 2005 if I recall correctly, there has been a gradual withdrawal from all contact with their customers as anything other than a source of income. Culminating of course in what lsat year or so became an outright war against some of their biggest fans in the form of some outrageous C&D claims claiming ownership of absolutely everything under the sun. (Now I'm not saying GW should permit their IP to be infringed, I'm just saying they appear to the fans to be taking it to the nth degree of viciousness and pointless nastiness)
It has got to the stage where their brand is actually a drag on them in PR terms. I suspect that actually the name "Games Workshop" has negative value and that for many people if they saw two identical models side by side, one branded "GW" one branded "AN Other Company", they would be prepared to pay more for the latter just to rub GW's nose in it! they have generated so much "negative goodwill" in accounting terms that if another miniatures company (assuming one could be found with the available capital) bought them out, they would actually only be prepared to pay somewhat less than the total value of their net assets - the difference being the amount of money they would have to pay to restore the image of the brand!
riburn3 wrote:In regards to the rules, I actually think the main ruleset is solid. What screws it up are the individual army rules and their constant contradiction to BRB rules and other codex rules.
Would you consider the intersection of contained turns and the model count of a given codex to be a fault of the rules or the fault of the codex?
In the last game of 40k I played, I was playing nids. I think it was turn two and I moved my rather large swarm. I think it was around 70 models, but probably more (it's been 6+ years, I don't quite remember). Then a very large number of them fleeted. And then a large number of them charged, So while my opponent just stood there I did around 200 or so model movements. At the end of the game I actually apologized to the opponent for making them wait through the movement of my swarm and told him that I would never do that to an opponent again. And I haven't. I understand that in casual games people will roll the fleet and everything and do one movement per model directly into combat, but that's a perfect demonstration about how the rules are broken and you have to ignore them for it to work. And it was a small store tournament, not a casual event.
kronk wrote:Players in my area. Can't find any.
And you're just north of Chicago, which GW considers one of their strongholds in North America.
My main concern with 40k and fantasy is that it is not epicly cool enough these days... The fluff describes things like they are awsome. Take Dreadnought for example.. then it gets a glancing hit and explodes, that is just boring....
Compare this to warmachine and things actually can be cool and feard by the enemy. If you are also good at strategi, things can be deadly...
And who really wants to roll 30-40 plus dice???, It takes a long time and it takes up space, overall the main reason everyone in my gaming group about 15 people started dropping out of 40k and WHFB from the year 2010 was the fact that it is not cool(too play, the fluff is cool, but playing it takes a long time and is boring and a very disappointing experience. We have all now switched over to other games, mainly Warmachine/hordes. And I dont think anyone wants to go back hehe..
Pricing has never been an issue for us, and has had no relevance on our decision to drop GW games. The rules are.. Many of us personaly think Warmachine /Hordes miniatures look like crap, and we convert things to make them look atleast decent. But in the End you want to play a fun game and in the time it takes to play one 40k fight at decent points i can play 3 or more warmachine/hordes battles. So both time and the lackluster rules has played a large part to why we no longer play GWs games.
GW needs to drop all their old rules and make big Monsters COOL with lots of Hits, have cinematic rules, like throwing and slaming stuff on the table. Make Terminators, Big tyranids and all the other things that are in the lore Tough and badass and stop with the Randomness of things... Tighter and better rules, COOLER more badass combos.... When a warbeasts comes charging down on your troops in warmachine you know its going to KICK ASS.. When a drednought charges in 40k it will probably die to a glancing power weapon hit before it gets a chans to strike, SO F...ing lame...
I personaly dont understand why people keep playing GW games.... There are just so many other games that have far cooler and better rules...
It'd really only take 1 thing:
- A new, modern rule set that entirely scraps the old one. A rule set built from the ground up to be focused on having healthy and varied metagame while producing dynamic and interesting game states.
Bonuses to seal the deal:
-Models that all feel like distinct game elements, rather than "Team of Space Marines with 1 Big Gun" vs "Team of Space Marines with 4 Big Guns".
-A lowered count of distinct entities active in the game. This doesn't neccesiarly fewer models, just a change in how the engine handles those models as gameplay objects.
riburn3 wrote: In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet.
You are very wrong here, We trash GWs games as much in IRL, as we do on the Internet. That statment is the same as some dude who told me on an MMO forum, "that there were only people that were unhappy with a game that posted on the forums". I think it was Star Wars the Old republic. I told him he had to be a very unhappy customer then because he was on the forums(posting his white knight arguments that the game was great ofc hehe). He immediatly replied that was not the case. He was happy and the game was just fine "nothing to see here move along". I then whent on and said "somtimes a cigar is just a cigar" Sigmund Freud said...haha, 6 months later it whent free to play.... Crap is crap, and Balance is the new Holy Grail of the kidds these days(those customers that GW are trying to get into the hobby). The success of competetive Video/PC games have created an atmosphere that BALANCE is key if you want to play with the big boys, if you aint got a balanced game you got gak. And contrary to what some of you belive everyone from Joe Casual gamer too the ultra competative player care about BALANCE.. Nobody accept stuffy old men, who are still living in the 90s, wants to play a bear and pretzels game in the year 2014...
Facts are the Atmosphere of despair has been going on for a long time now.. But the diffrence now from the year 2004-2005 is that there are ALOT, and I mean ALOT of other games that have established brands out on the market. Many of them started more then a decade ago. People who were on the fence, thinking they might not last, do not have those concerns in the year 2014. All of these games also have superior Rules compared to GW games... I predict a slow death for Games Workshop, they have fixed with the numbers for years now, but you cant keep that up forever.
The Writing is on the wall, they are going down, they are cutting and cutting and cutting, No more translation of whitedwarf, one man stores, The last Gamesday looked like a joke, Trying to shut down other copycat brands who make similar miniatures but cheaper and constant price hikes. And they F with people that we as a community interact with, Beast of War and Miniwargaming are examples but there are many others.. When you combine all these things there is going to be blow back, It has been going on for years now, but it takes time to bring down a giant... They have taken everything that was fun about the hobby and cut it away. Now they just want to sell miniatures with some crapy unfinished rules slapped on, and the new generation is not buying it, because they have grown up on PC/consol/video games and they want BALANCE...because that is whats "COOL" these days...
And the worst thing is that once people are gone they never come back, because GWs policy has never been to retain customers.
To address the OP I'm in the same boat as a lot of people- bring back some specialist stuff. I haven't given GW any real cash is a long time, but I would happily drop cash on a decent Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, Necromunda or even Epic sets. Hell I'd buy Space Crusade and Warhammer Quest if I could.
Why GW makes it so hard for me to give them money is beyond me. I feel almost like if you walked into the boardroom and said 'Did you know there are *other games* out there?' they'd genuinely look shocked.
No codex's the main rulebook is expensive enough as it is and should contain army lists.
Decomplicate the rules. Way to many special rules and other such nonsense.
If you cut price by 50% won't that just double the costs to produce the model? Wouldn't that only compound the situation as they are beefing up their workforce and other selling expenses for less of a return?
I don't see how that works. The model would cost the same to produce. The profit margins would be smaller. I think they should be focusing on getting more customers into the hobby than gauging the customer on every purchase.
Not that it matters the question isn't what should gw do to get more business. It is what would they have to do to get me to start buying them. Around a 50% maybe 40% cut in prices would make their models a decent value for money for me. At the moment they are not.
the prices are fine. 33 US for 5 sanguinary guard is fair. buy from a discounter that figure drops to 25 bucks. which is a fair price IMO. i would not raise it more, i wouldn't drop it lower either.
gouging people by region is what needs to go. im not liking gouging people for new overpowered stuff either. compared to sanguinary guard, they are asking seventeen dollars more for sternguard for some unknown reason. all fiveman kits should be the same price, and 50 is too much. Leave it at 35, get rid of regional pricing and most of us will be happy.
wanting 50% off is just getting greedy on your side.
No its not greedy and its ridiculous of you to say so especially considering many consider GW's current pricing to be greedy. Prices are fine to you and some others, to many they are not worth it at all, to some a small discount would be fine. To me it is not worth it at all. I would purchase from elsewhere, I am certainly not willing to pay the costs it would take to make a playable force. New plastic characters are around £15 which is way to much for me to be willing to pay.
I am a part of a local gaming community that dropped GM en masse, shortly after 8th edition WHFB came out.
Twelve players, quitting the same week.
Negativity - it's not just for the internet, anymore.
Most of us didn't think that we were quitting GW - just not that happy with 8th, and we thought that we would try out this new fantasy game from Mantic, 'just this once'.
I don't think any of us have played WHFB since.
I was an exception - I had already played KoW by then, and had already ditched WHFB.
On the other hand, we still play Mordheim, which remains my favorite GW game.
Heck, if they did a The Hobbit version of Mordheim....
Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.
Seriously? Cut the prices. At least 30% off.
And don't treat those players/modellers who use non-GW products as though they're plague-bearing baby-eating Anti-Christs.
Not-so-seriously? Institute a basic level of hygiene (with sniffer dogs if necessary), manners and gamesmanship amongst the patrons and staff - all certainly necessary in the stores I've visited.
Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.
That's not quite right. Discount retailers typically sell at that discount for all lines. Does that mean ALL products are overcosted 20-25%? Its because they (often) don't have a storefront eating up overhead. What Gamesworkshop does do is try and funnel all sales directly to GW, where they get 100% of MSRP, rather than the 50% (or whatever) they sell to distributors. The other rising game companies (Privateer, Wyrd, Mantic, etc) are less worried about trying to compete directly with the Brick and Mortar stores that sell their products, and just get them out in a wide market. Including, gasp, the internet. Crazy how making your product easy to buy can work out well for ya.
I mean, this isn't to say their products ARENT overpriced. Consider that you can buy a recast GW character on the cheap, but I haven't really seen/heard of any recasts of their competition. I think that somewhat speaks to how much padding their is in some of their pricing structure, because its less profitable for people to counterfeit them.
Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.
From their own figures, GW spends about 20% of the final RRP before sales tax getting the product on the shelf (design, manufacture, logistics)
It is well known that independents purchase stock at ~40% of RRP before tax.
So yes, there is room for a price reduction, but half is just dreaming because GW's non-product overhead is so high that it would drive them under in no time at all.
If they were to dispose of their retail chain, seriously downsize admin and management, and sell solely through wholesale distribution, then maybe something approaching 50% would be feasible without breaking the company, but that's just not going to happen.
If that is someone's line in the sand for buying back in to GW, fair enough, that's your right, but don't be planning any new army purchases in that basis.
I think the way to effect a price reduction without an actual slashing of product prices is to concentrate on sprue design that's focused on maximum utility for the end user in all future projects.
The existing sprue designs are done. The tooling is done and production is happening. Existing products can't really be revamped for more models per box.
Another problem is that everything else about the product experience devalues the models. The model count of a full army and the figures basically being nothing more than wound counters in games cocentrating on units all serve to make the purchases both a smaller and smaller portion of the total cost of a full army and makes the individual figures less and less relevant in a collection or game.
Oh, and the slashing of models per box for the same price is just terrible. Normalizing all elites in 40k to 5 figures per box is just crazy. And 10 figure WFB boxes in an edition where you introduce a horde rule? They should be concentrating on sprues rather than figure count as they are the unit of production and tooling. This trend of offering less and less in a box is terrible. I get that they need to stretch out the purchases to get more money, but at 5 figures a pop or 10 figures a pop, a lot of units in both 40k and WFB become obviously not viable and people won't go down the path of building them.
Imagine building a viable witch elf unit. How many $70 boxes of 10 is the typical Canadian WFB going to buy?
Stick two extra sprues of WE in (assuming 5 per sprue.) your costs per unit increase by a matter of what? £1, perhaps £2, your margin remains solid, your customer doesn't feel violated by an unsanded wooden pole, everyone wins.
Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.
From their own figures, GW spends about 20% of the final RRP before sales tax getting the product on the shelf (design, manufacture, logistics)
It is well known that independents purchase stock at ~40% of RRP before tax.
So yes, there is room for a price reduction, but half is just dreaming because GW's non-product overhead is so high that it would drive them under in no time at all.
If they were to dispose of their retail chain, seriously downsize admin and management, and sell solely through wholesale distribution, then maybe something approaching 50% would be feasible without breaking the company, but that's just not going to happen.
If that is someone's line in the sand for buying back in to GW, fair enough, that's your right, but don't be planning any new army purchases in that basis.
Thats a very fair point. It does depend on the models too. Some are over 50% more than I would pay some are far less. I would also doubt all models have 20% cost brining them to production considering many are obviously priced in regard to points cost rather than production costs. But I imagine thats a decent average to work from.
When I say around 50% price cut I mean I would like it to cost close to half the current price it does to create a viable army you can play the game with. Not to worried how they do that. More models per box maybe? Better battlebox deals? Less costly books? Get rid of codexs?
Those are all more achievable ways of getting to that cheaper price point, and certainly a lot of them would be achievable without the potential impact a direct slash in RRP would have.
FWIW I think "power level pricing" is a really daft idea too, it is almost like GW intend it to be part of the balancing of the game, and is definitely responsible for the more extreme outliers that really highlight how expensive things can get.
You're also right about the 20%, that figure is the percentage of their turnover that they list as cost of sales, which in the last one or two annual reports has also included product development, but is an average across their whole range, from paint and tools through books to plastic kits. I would suspect paint and tools (which they don't make themselves) could well be higher as a percentage of RRP, and items such as the 5 man Elite boxes could well be lower. (Things start to get really muddy with the plastic kits though, as the molds would be a significant startup cost, which could then be deferred over the lifetime of the kit, so a new kit would theoretically have a lower margin/higher cost than one that had been in production for a few years and recouped it's startup costs, which is why it is best to work wih averages.)
While power level pricing is insane, I think expected numbers
purchased pricing makes sense. Why produce a high quality
single commander with lots of options if you're going to only
ever sell 1 or 2 to a player and not raise the price?
I would go back to GW if they made smaller sized game without the huge models.
The reason is I never got to paint everything when playing 40k and often you needed multiples of the same units and vehicles which completely ruined the motivation.
Now with Warmachine, you can have the same amount of fun with less models. Instead of spamming, variety gives you more strength and almost all models are normal sized easy to transport.
How people get to transport 3 valkyries for instance is beyond me.
Prices has no importance for me, the resources put into modelling and painting is the most limited resource.
It is nice going from work to the game store and pulling a few snap shut containers out of my brief case, 3 or 4 dice and some flat templates and have a 25 point warmachine game. If I happen to have a laptop bag then I can easily carry 35 points stuffed with soft cloths in small containers. And that fits around my work stuff. Games like Malifaux and Infinity are even easier.
High model count might look cool when it's all painted up and covering the table, but I see so many downsides that it would definitely have to go before I got back into a GW game.
riburn3 wrote: In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet.
You are very wrong here, We trash GWs games as much in IRL, as we do on the Internet. That statment is the same as some dude who told me on an MMO forum, "that there were only people that were unhappy with a game that posted on the forums". I think it was Star Wars the Old republic. I told him he had to be a very unhappy customer then because he was on the forums(posting his white knight arguments that the game was great ofc hehe). He immediatly replied that was not the case. He was happy and the game was just fine "nothing to see here move along". I then whent on and said "somtimes a cigar is just a cigar" Sigmund Freud said...haha, 6 months later it whent free to play.... Crap is crap, and Balance is the new Holy Grail of the kidds these days(those customers that GW are trying to get into the hobby). The success of competetive Video/PC games have created an atmosphere that BALANCE is key if you want to play with the big boys, if you aint got a balanced game you got gak. And contrary to what some of you belive everyone from Joe Casual gamer too the ultra competative player care about BALANCE.. Nobody accept stuffy old men, who are still living in the 90s, wants to play a bear and pretzels game in the year 2014...
Facts are the Atmosphere of despair has been going on for a long time now.. But the diffrence now from the year 2004-2005 is that there are ALOT, and I mean ALOT of other games that have established brands out on the market. Many of them started more then a decade ago. People who were on the fence, thinking they might not last, do not have those concerns in the year 2014. All of these games also have superior Rules compared to GW games... I predict a slow death for Games Workshop, they have fixed with the numbers for years now, but you cant keep that up forever.
The Writing is on the wall, they are going down, they are cutting and cutting and cutting, No more translation of whitedwarf, one man stores, The last Gamesday looked like a joke, Trying to shut down other copycat brands who make similar miniatures but cheaper and constant price hikes. And they F with people that we as a community interact with, Beast of War and Miniwargaming are examples but there are many others.. When you combine all these things there is going to be blow back, It has been going on for years now, but it takes time to bring down a giant... They have taken everything that was fun about the hobby and cut it away. Now they just want to sell miniatures with some crapy unfinished rules slapped on, and the new generation is not buying it, because they have grown up on PC/consol/video games and they want BALANCE...because that is whats "COOL" these days...
And the worst thing is that once people are gone they never come back, because GWs policy has never been to retain customers.
That is purely anecdotal. Just like my example. My community has been doing nothing but adding players to Warmahordes, Fantasy, and 40k for the last 5 years since I've been here. I live in a metro of 1 million people, in one of the poorest regions of the United States, and the hobby has only been growing. No one is despairing.
Other folks here are going to be splashing around anecdotes of the exact opposite, of entire groups leaving the hobby, just like you. Obviously I know an atmosphere of despair exists to some degree (heck I created this thread so I'm aware), but your lone anecdote does not make that so, just like mine doesn't counter yours. All of us provide anecdotal evidence. Fantasy seems to be dying but there are dozens here saying its thriving in their group. Whose right? At the end of the day, GW is still much larger than their competitors, sit on some good IP, and have weathered numerous storms in the past.
Lastly, if you don't think people turn to the internet to complain and voice their concern over individuals that are completely satisfied with a product, you are deluding yourself.
At this point I am not sure what GW could do to lure me back.
For the first time in since I began playing in 2003 I have not purchased the last codex, neither Stronghold Assault or Escalation, have not purchased any of the supplemental codex books, and since last September I have only purchased two vehicle kits which still sit unassembled. I was a long time coming but now I have no desire to play 40K every again. Yes i still love the models, the grim dark setting and backstory, but pricing, craptacular rules that offer no balance or fun, as well as a toxic player community bent on exploiting this lousy ruleset have made playing a game of 40K as much fun as my next trip to the doctor.
So what should be done? here are a few suggestions, in no particular order:
1) Price adjustment. - Lower the prices to a level that will attract and sustain both new and old players. At $100 or more no one purchases the starter set. Veteran players rarely start new armies anymore.
2) Balanced and well written rules. - I'm no longer interested in playing a game where I have to play one of a handful of builds to be competitive. Even when winning with these builds, the game is not fun. Write a balanced game where list building and shotty rules ( 2+ rerollable save, etc ) do not determine the outcome of each game before the first die is cast.
3) Tournament support and control. - When GW was involved in Games Days and their own Grand Tournaments, the whole hobby was important to win their event, Organized play needs to refocus on all aspects of the hobby and the only way to get the community back to this level is for GW to step back in and set the standard. I would also serve to spread some good will back into the gaming community.
4) Create a way to submit feedback, and actually listen to your consumer base.- I know it's a dream but most successful organizations actually care about the people who are consuming their products and use their opinions to help direct upcoming sales.
So there you have it. Basically if I felt GW was actually attempting to produce a quality game that was fun to play I would have never strayed. Unfortunately the game changed and GW's policy of zero customer support and zero attention to customer opinions has finally caught up to them. I am sure in typical fashion they will seek to blame the electronic age of video games, the price of raw materials, labor, distribution, the unbalance of global currency, etc but the bottom line is they stopped making a quality product. Build a better mousetrap and the world will make a path to your door.
Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.
From their own figures, GW spends about 20% of the final RRP before sales tax getting the product on the shelf (design, manufacture, logistics)
It is well known that independents purchase stock at ~40% of RRP before tax.
So yes, there is room for a price reduction, but half is just dreaming because GW's non-product overhead is so high that it would drive them under in no time at all.
If they were to dispose of their retail chain, seriously downsize admin and management, and sell solely through wholesale distribution, then maybe something approaching 50% would be feasible without breaking the company, but that's just not going to happen.
If that is someone's line in the sand for buying back in to GW, fair enough, that's your right, but don't be planning any new army purchases in that basis.
If they doubled the amount of product in every box, would that put them under?
Cutting prices to a point that isn't insulting, writing a ruleset that is well designed, playtested, and actually fun to play, and perhaps adopting a model aesthetic that doesn't look like a fisher price toy.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:If they doubled the amount of product in every box, would that put them under?
Maybe. (sorry, I know, worst answer ever)
It all depends on whether or not it impacts sales when people start the game and during the year or two that follows them joining.
Right now GW can sell them a high price starter, a codex, maybe a rulebook and a battleforce, and then a unit box or two every now and again.
If doubling the number of miniatures in a box would result in people skipping on some purchases, then GW doesn't have the room in their margin for it. If they'd spend roughly the same amount and just enjoy the greater number of miniatures, then GW would still be slightly worse off because they had to spend more on production, shipping and distribution.
So it depends whether or not it would result in more purchases. We might all say that yeah, we'd buy more, but the odds are we might buy ever so slightly less as we struggle to process twice the number of miniatures into our games.
It's also possible that GW could suddenly start offering much better value but the bridges they have burned make it too late. That their direct only focus means they just don't have the marketing power to get the word out about the new value in their product. They need to dramatically increase sales and get people excited again and it's a hard ask with their current approach.
I think it's probably just better for everyone if GW continues their decline into irrelevancy and their market share gets slowly divided up among multiple competitors who are all growing. If GW wants to wake up along the way and do the things that would get its customers back, I'm all for that too. .
Given that online retailers can offer 20% off GW and still make a profit, we can infer that GW is at least 20% over costed as no store would sell product at a loss.
From their own figures, GW spends about 20% of the final RRP before sales tax getting the product on the shelf (design, manufacture, logistics)
It is well known that independents purchase stock at ~40% of RRP before tax.
So yes, there is room for a price reduction, but half is just dreaming because GW's non-product overhead is so high that it would drive them under in no time at all.
If they were to dispose of their retail chain, seriously downsize admin and management, and sell solely through wholesale distribution, then maybe something approaching 50% would be feasible without breaking the company, but that's just not going to happen.
If that is someone's line in the sand for buying back in to GW, fair enough, that's your right, but don't be planning any new army purchases in that basis.
If they doubled the amount of product in every box, would that put them under?
No.
The cost of a sprue is a fraction of the cost of the whole product (especially when you can discount any design and mould tooling costs as the mould already exists) so all you add to the overall cost is essentially the cost of plastic and the extra time (minutes? If that) to cast a couple more sprues.
It would certainly add to their costs, but would still maintain a healthy margin at point of sale.
Now, if you were to consider that more product per box means less unit sales and therefore their income would suffer that way, you might have a point. However, you'd have to weigh up the increase in sales from people who were now willing to buy at the new "value point" vs the number of people who would have bought two boxes under the old structure. Personally, I think that's a moot point, because if GW doesn't start selling stuff to more people, then the downward trend will continue anyway, regardless.
Do people actually believe their line of BS that they price things in a way to recoup the costs from the molds?? Hasn't the fact that most every other miniatures company out there can offer the same number of figs or more at half the price debunked that by now?
I am not out of the hobby but I am not spending that much anymore.
Regarding the price decrease I know I want one but I am sure that this will also devalue my current collection so if you already have a gazillion of minis then a major price drop will result in money loss on the minis you already own, so it is kinda of a mixed blessing.
Quality is nice if you forget the failcast bs but like most people said if you charge the highest price that must happen for a reason.
Right now there is a ton of artists out there that produce, with access to lesser means, minis that are far superior than the GW ones. Simply look at the raging heroes Female IG line.
My most important problem stands with the rules. There is a constant blur that I feel it originates from the need for the game to be simple enough that a 8 years old can play it. Guess what?! I have no desire to make up rules on a roll of 4+ especially in the tournament scene. Make a starter rule set that is easy for entry playing and small ages and then complex clear rules for grown up adults and tournaments. Rules upon which codexes can be balanced correctly. And PLAYTEST the hell out of them. Release them on the internet for free and let us do the play testing! Forums thrive with people that can provide complete breakdowns of rules and units through extended play testing. Listen to the internet!
My bottom line is that the fun is gone. GW needs to find the games side and forget a bit about the workshop side deep inside the company.
Capamaru wrote: Right now there is a ton of artists out there that produce, with access to lesser means, minis that are far superior than the GW ones. Simply look at the raging heroes Female IG line.
Bad example - they're significantly more expensive than GW even with the Kickstarter discount, and they're still faffing about months after the first wave was supposed to be released.
A big killer for me though is that they no longer make metal models. Plastic toys just don't cut it for me unless they are super-cheap. I don't buy plastic because in anway they have quality. I buy plastic because it is often the only affordable way to build a sizeable army for a given system. Given the choice I much prefer metal. Plastic has the association of "mass produced, cheap". It reminds me of the old boxes of airfix models I had as a kid, and metal reminds me that actually I'm no longer a kid and there is something more to the models than little toys I played with on the carpet as a 7 year-old. If they brought back metal for character models, and didn't charge the earth, I could be possibly persuaded to part with the odd £1 or to. But I'm never going to pay £10, £15, £20 for a hero model. £5 is my absolute limit, and that has to be something pretty special.
This.
I think just the same; I'm forty years old and messing about with plastic soldiers? At least give me something that feels like it's worth the money I just paid.
I am most displeased with the manner in which GW treats its employees. From what I have seen it is a blessing if they fire you, and that is something that they do with frequency. They would have to start treating their employees like human beings to get me back.
GW also happened to pull out of the local retail market. I am not inclined to buy their products if they do not want to sell them to me.
After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.
As someone who DOES NOT play the game at all, the price point for games workshop models is expensive, but in reality it's really not. 35 dollars for 10 men that you may spend a week perfecting and putting hours upon hours of work into? That doesn't seem ridiculous at all. And even still when you don't want to pay full price across the board just go to ebay. That place is a treasure trove of cheap warhammer stuff.
After ditching the hobby for many years so I could focus more on school, the enjoyment that I get from these models has brought me back. For my type of slow progression of a box by box army, Games-Workshop sells at a price point that I would gladly pay for.
WayneTheGame wrote: Do people actually believe their line of BS that they price things in a way to recoup the costs from the molds?? Hasn't the fact that most every other miniatures company out there can offer the same number of figs or more at half the price debunked that by now?
PrettyLawful wrote: After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.
Once you finish school and have to start supporting yourself, that's going to change drastically.
PrettyLawful wrote: After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.
Once you finish school and have to start supporting yourself, that's going to change drastically.
One of the most interesting aspects of being an adult is making a lot of money, but having less disposable income then ever.
Still, as a working adult I have the money to pay GW prices, I just don't have the time to play a lousy game.
PrettyLawful wrote: After having another hobby that costs quite a lot more than and GW minature, these prices become more and more meaningless. I am a senior in high school and I have a job and I can pay for the hobby, especially during the winter where I can shovel my way to the bank.
Once you finish school and have to start supporting yourself, that's going to change drastically.
This. When I was a senior in high school (and just after as a freshman in college) and had lots of disposable income with no real expenses (living with relatives, older car that was bought with cash, etc) I was able to buy new things every week and start armies on a whim (and I did; I would buy a few units of a new army just because, then a month or two later get bored and decide to try another army). As a working professional that isn't the case anymore.
WayneTheGame wrote: Do people actually believe their line of BS that they price things in a way to recoup the costs from the molds?? Hasn't the fact that most every other miniatures company out there can offer the same number of figs or more at half the price debunked that by now?
Don't think anyone was saying this?
I certainly wasn't, but the cost of tooling the molds is certainly a significant expenditure that has to be factored into the projected profitability of the kit. The main reason other companies are able to charge less has nothing to do with the cost of producing models and everything to do with not having a massively bloated cost base as a result of maintaining a network of stores. I've said for some time the the store network is probably doing more harm than good in terms of how restricting it is in GW's ability to react to the market.
Probably the biggest thing GW could do to get me back into their games would be to severely cut the cost of rules. My Tyranids and Lizardmen are shelved because I didn't feel like buying a $60 book to play them, and next edition turnover I am probably dropping Fantasy altogether (because probably a $100 rulebook).
I am not saying make it free, but when I could buy the rules for any other game, plus a sizable chunk of other stuff (such as, say, everything I need to re-fight the battle of Yavin), I am somewhat less than inclined to buy your stuff.
Would this actually make GW money, at least in terms of me? Maybe, maybe not. I also have problems with the quality of rules and their general attitude, but if I were actually playing the game, maybe I would fall for some of their new units. I know there are some I like, but if all I'm doing is a painting project, I am going to buy a cheaper model if I am not going to play with the model. If I were actually playing their game, I might go for that big, expensive model, as both painting and playing something is better than just painting it.
Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.
The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.
I haven't read all seven pages so far but there's a common theme in what I have read....prices
I've got 5 armies all over 2000 points now. I don't need to buy any more to keep playing other than the codecies. Some of the new shiny toys are nice but I can't justify the cost.
Plus the cost of initially starting this hobby has become far too high now. I know it's a long time ago now but the 3ed Starter Set cost less than a Riptide does now and it included a Tac Squad, Landspeeder, 16 Dark Eldar Warriors Templates, Rulers.......you get the picture.
Two words really sum up my GW involvement right now, Specialist Games. It would take a complete revamp of Mordhiem, Necromunda, Gorkamorka and BFG for me to touch GW ever again. I own 3,000+ points in DKoK and IG another 1.5k in orks. Yet I haven’t played 40k since qualifying for feast of blades.
The game is broken. For me the last straw was the high toughness, high wound minis. The wraith knight and rip tide became too much. Cost and rules. Last round of FoB qualifier I lost everything to an elder army and barely made a scratch. It wasn’t even a fair fight. It was like me boxing my 8 year old. I admit I rage quit. But it was a long time coming. I make a good salary but can’t afford to keep up with codex creep.
Right now I am actively buying every Necromunda fig I can get my hands on. I go every Saturday with premade gang lists and minis to my flgs and teach anyone to play Necromunda who wants to learn. Every one of them says the same thing “Wow, why isn’t 40k this fun!.”
So in summation:
1. Specialist games
2. Prices need to be realistic (realistic is 5$ a fig in mho)
I think I'm done with playing conventional 40k... despite being a fanboy for the background, the dataslits and wanton regard for rules balance have killed it for me. The mini design choices have also killed it. I'm attracted by shinier things and better game systems. X-wing for fun and easy games, infinity/FOW for the miniatures and tactical game fix, and continuing to make mini's from the 40k universe that may or may not be useable in a game, I don't give a feth anymore.
I'm still into GW products though, it's called black library and Forge World... To really get me back into it, I would need an adult version of the game based on skirmish with a completely rewritten, modern ruleset. I'm still willing to pay forge world prices for their product, so I can't say that prices are the main problem, but forge world gives me real quality and artistic sculpts.
That being said, I may possibly be dragged back in by a new Imperial Guard codex and give them my money for that, despite hating myself.... 40k is still fun when you basically play narrative and scenarios and not be crazy about balance, who wins, or taking uber units.
Polonius wrote: Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.
The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.
And what is the end result of that? You get boxes full of useless "bits" for a markup price of 30 or 40%...
If they used that extra "sprue quality" to pack in more special or heavy weapons then you would have a point.
GW would be in a tough spot to cut current prices. Their best bet is to freeze price hikes on new products and focus on releasing them at lower prices then they would have. Then gradually they can reduce prices of older products.
If the rumours are true about FW being sold through the GW website... then it may be possible to support my local store through FW purchases. I imagine we would also no longer need to do bulk purchases to avoid the brutal FW shipping charges if we have them delivered to a store.
Polonius wrote: Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.
The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.
And what is the end result of that? You get boxes full of useless "bits" for a markup price of 30 or 40%...
If they used that extra "sprue quality" to pack in more special or heavy weapons then you would have a point.
I like the options included. Look at Grey Knights. You can build three different units, with all possible options, out of a single kit. No upgrade blisters, no metal/plastic hybrids, none of it.
Admittedly, GW units tend to have more options, but you get a lot more modelling options with a GW kit, even if some of them are purely aesthetic.
Polonius wrote: Lets also not pretend that any manufacturers really match GW for sprue quality. Dont' get me wrong, Warlord plastics look great, but GW packs a lot onto each sprue for basic troops.
The more I look at other models, the more I see what I have to pay for metal/resin/restic, and the more I see the quality of low priced hard plastic... well, buying GW seems more and more acceptable to me.
And what is the end result of that? You get boxes full of useless "bits" for a markup price of 30 or 40%...
If they used that extra "sprue quality" to pack in more special or heavy weapons then you would have a point.
I like the options included. Look at Grey Knights. You can build three different units, with all possible options, out of a single kit. No upgrade blisters, no metal/plastic hybrids, none of it.
Admittedly, GW units tend to have more options, but you get a lot more modelling options with a GW kit, even if some of them are purely aesthetic.
Now that's a thought. What if you were able to build Tactical/Assault/Devastator marines out of a single box, with all options (e.g. no crap like only including 1 heavy weapon when the squad can take up to 4). That's be worth $40 or so in my opinion.
Well, Devestators are tricky, if only because they can take up to four each of five different weapons. A sprue of twenty heavy weapons would probably be its own sprue, if not spill onto a second. Practicality has to kick in at some point.
At the other end of the space marine spectrum is the assault marine sprue, which doesn't even include flamers, and is hideously expensive.
Of course, the real loser are things like Eldar Dire Avengers: no real options, and $35 for five! I mean, you can get top quality metals for that price. Compare that to Grey Knights, which is cheaper, includes options for varient close combat weapons, and every weapon option, plus a bonus psycannon!
Prices are high, and a cut would be great, but GW can and has made kits that simply can't be beat by any other manufacturer in terms of quality and value for the dollar. That they squander that is a shame.
They used to be. Since Finecast and the new dex's of the last couple of years, they've been using unobtainium, far more expensive than platinum.
On a serious note, I maybe have a little more perspective at age 49 and 35+ years in the wargaming hobby, so here goes.
GW have followed the same evolutionary path as many companies that grow from a boutique type company into a large international juggernaut. In phase 1, the customer is all important. You bend over backwards to get customers, and you do everything possible to make as many of them as possible into repeat customers. Perceived quality and value are generally at their highest, since ensuring a good customer experience is paramount. Your future existence depends on it.
In phase 2, a company starts realizing that more product is necessary to keep existing customers in the fold. New people are brought in to bring new ideas to the table, and the emphasis starts shifting to more new stuff. At this point, the customer is no longer in the driver's seat, but rather rides shot gun with new product and expansion in the driver's seat. Existing customers are still the life blood of the company, and keeping them is still important.
In Phase 3, the company has gone public, and now has share holders and a board of directors. If you're a customer, forget about riding shot gun, or even sitting in the back seat. You're just not in the car anymore. The one and only emphasis is bottom line. Gots to keep the share holders and board happy. Gots to pay the CEO, COO, CFO, etc., their seven or eight figure salaries. At this point, improving the bottom line usually means cutting employee wages, closing retail outlets, raisng prices, etc. Existing customers are often deemed unimportant since their yearly contribution to the company kitty has shrunk. Getting new customers, even if they don't stick around long, is far more important, and puts far more cash in the kitty.
Some companies go through these phases much, much better than GW. They have failed their loyal customer base. I'm still involved with GW, but I don't buy their paint, brushes, or any other modeling supplies. I've seen the two closest GW stores in my area close after having gone from 3 man, to 2 man operations open 6 days a week, to 1 man operations open only 5 days a week, and closing for 30 minutes a day for lunch. Fortunately, I have ~800 points of models still on sprues in their boxes in addition to about 500 points assembled and awaiting paint (I work slowly, lol), and I buy Vallejo paints on line, so there's no reason for me to drive an hour to either the Bunker or closest GW to me. I realize many people have to drive that far, but I'm in a metro area of 3.5 million.
Do they over charge for their product? Uh, yeah. Crappy (I'm assuming squirrel hair) brushes at almost the cost of my Raphie 8404 kolinskys? Yeah, that's overcharging. More money for a smaller pot of paint that's no better than the competitions bigger bottles? Yep, over charging. Boxes of 5 troops at about the same price as a box of ten troops? Yep. I understand command type figs being more expensive, it works the same with historicals, but not to nearly the same extent as the GW price structure. They have become blind and arrogant, and feel they are the only game in town. This has caused them to lose focus on what made them, and it has alienated long term customers. It's a shame. I have a lot of very fond memories of afternoons and evenings spent in my former FLGW. I miss the guys working in those stores, and I miss a lot of the regulars that I used to game with and learn from. I don't see those days ever coming back. The stores feel too corporate now, and I'm not sure there is anything, including bringing prices in line, that could bring me back to the same level of involvement I used to have and enjoy. In fact, I've been spending more and more time lately visiting Dixon and Essex's sites looking to get back into historical gaming.
people complaining about prices... that is just silly... GW prices have inlfated at a slower rate then bottles of pop...
its more money to buy a pizza + 6 pack of beer then most of my model boxes (about 50$) guess which one lasts longer? I still have 14+ year old models that I still use on the table.
when I ski, I dont complain that I had to spend 500$ on skis and still have to pay 100+ for lift passes or 50$ on gas to drive to the mountains
when I buy a blank peice of dencet canvass to paint, it costs 10-50$ for a decent one depending on size...
when I go on a fishing trip, it costs 20$ for bait and snacks/misc, 20-30$ for gas each time...
I do however, agree that GW needs to be much more involved with rules/balance... I was REALLY hopeful that their FAQ updates would be every month or so... and really, its just plain LAZY/STUPID in the times of the internet, to NOT answer 5 FAQ questions per codex every 8 weeks or so... such a cheap way to increase the fun that people have and stop player burn out due to arguing.
Companies like Discount Games Store and other online merchandisers make it really hard to justify paying GW prices.
I recently got my codex, brand new, unopened and untouched, for $10 less that list price, shipping included. I also got me a 6th ed Tactical Squad for the same savings.
Why on earth would I allow GW to charge me that extra? Especially since they seem so able to provide retailers with price cuts that allow them to offer the product at such a reduced rate. I just don't see why I'm paying so much more to grab the item off the shelf myself, or have GW ship it to me.
You know, I haven't been playing this game for near as long as some, but I'm a pretty smart guy and it doesn't take much to do some investigating and it seems to me that the only thing keeping GW afloat right now is us, the consumer. Sure GW doesn't listen to us or probably even care what we have to say, but we all still keep buying the models and the books don't we?
What the hell pizza and beer are you buying for $50? I can get the best pizza in Cleveland Delivered, with a craft beer six pack, for about $35 plus tip!
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
This^. I can say an hour at the range will run me ~$150 with ammo, targets and range fee, but what in the Sam Hill has that got to do with wargaming or GW?
I'm not exactly out of the hobby, but what would make me more interested is:
1. not trying to have each army book/codex outdo the previous. Instead just changing the rules for the previous through FAQ, White Dwarf, or a complementary online version of a codex would balance the game a lot more, and drive people to be less competitive
2. Generally encourage strategy over army selection. One of the reasons why I think the LOTR SBG (or now Hobbit SBG) rules are the best I've seen from GW is that you can essentially win with any army, as long as you play strategically well. (there was a Rohan outrider cheat which unfortunately they did not fix). There was a guy who won the Grand Tournament many years in a row, with different armies, despite the rules not changing in between. This would make themed armies more competitive, and generally make the game more open and fun, especially for those starting.
3. A bit of a price cut on the rules and the basic kits.
it's ridiculous that I can buy 10 Witch Elves (a core unit) for 45e, or 10 Corsairs for half of that, 22.50e (not to mention 5 Doomfire Warlocks, a rare cavalry unit for 25)
Why would I, with limited money, buy the Witch Elves?
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
This. And GW loses in pretty much every case. If you compare to Warmahordes, it can get just as expensive but for a full/diverse force, not the basics that you need just to get started (I could buy a standard-sized and diverse Warmachines force for what it would cost to get a starter points value Warhammer army). If you compare to Warlord/Perry/Mantic, GW loses in everything other than possibly quality, and even quality-wise their competitors aren't that awful for tabletop gaming quality.
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
This. And GW loses in pretty much every case. If you compare to Warmahordes, it can get just as expensive but for a full/diverse force, not the basics that you need just to get started. If you compare to Warlord/Perry/Mantic, GW loses in everything other than possibly quality, and even quality-wise their competitors aren't that awful for tabletop gaming quality.
And, to be fair, one doesn't normally buy plastic minis for display pieces (except maybe the odd tank/large kit)
reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!
I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?
A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!
It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!
The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.
This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.
darkcloak wrote: reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!
I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?
You're making an objective argument for a subjective decision, you think $15 is too much, I agree, others will not. You're also mistaking apathy for pragmatism. For instance, I acknowledge that GW is somewhat backed into a corner pricing wise because of it's overheads, that's their problem, and I choose to spend my money elsewhere most of the time, as, apparently, are an increasing number of others. There's no point in getting het up about it, just decide what's best for you and go with it.
A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!
How long will that take you? How much do you value your time? How much spare time does the guy buying one have? How strong are his scratch building skills? Again, whether a model is "worth it" or not is a personal decision based on multiple criteria.
It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!
The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.
This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.
Welcome to capitalism, it's not perfect, but it's the best we've got. The fact that you state " have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products" implies you still are, at least for now, which makes your whole statement a tad hypocritical.
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...
all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.
a coke bottle costs me 2.50, a RC bottle costs me 1$... so? does that mean coke is over priced, or are you just getting what you pay for.
I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...
*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*
in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...
all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.
a coke bottle costs me 2.50, a RC bottle costs me 1$... so? does that mean coke is over priced, or are you just getting what you pay for.
I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...
*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*
in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.
This post is so full of logic holes I'm surprised it hasn't deleted itself under the weight of its own inaccuracy.
easysauce wrote: same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...
Don't spend much time in the P&M section, huh? Lots of people posting their work for those games. It's quite a stretch to say no one plays those games.
darkcloak wrote: reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!
I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?
A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!
It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!
The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.
This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.
I respect your point and I think it is a very valid one. Yet I think it will fall on deaf ears unfortunately.
What you're writing about unfortunately is not a problem that only exists within war gaming, but truly an issue that pervades itself throughout society. Personally I have had to think very hard about how moral it is to be buying what essentially are pretty pieces of plastic or pewter. I do not think many people consider what a moral juxtaposition it is that we are perfectly willing to use our hard earned money on products which generate a profit for (mostly) corporate elites. Yet many among us are unwilling to donate or use our money for charitable causes.
I doubt any great change would come soon though. As some people think that just because they have worked hard for their money it entitles them to use that money solely on themselves. I think the key as with almost everything in life is moderation which allows us to see that no value should be placed on money, rather value can be placed on the experiences derived from products.
That is the problem of consumerism though. And as a result of our society nearly every person is a consumer.
However, let us not cast judgement on people for what they spend their money on. To the guy saving for a Forge World Titan, that may very well be something he will take great pride in and will t really hurt someone else if he purchases it? Or someone willing to spend their money on what may be perceived as overpriced products, it is sad, but I know some people who unfortunately do not have much other sources of joy in their life besides war gaming so if someone wishes to buy it then why not? Someone's purchases may seem irresponsible on a global scale, but the issue of perspective is extremely important to keep in mind or else we tend to forget the values someone else ascribes to things.
Those are just my musings as a Philosophy Major though
To the topic though of would need to be done to get me involved in GW again?
My main issues are prices, while several have speculated that price cannot simply be slashed and I agree with them; where prices could be reduced is in the rules and bundle deals, which offer a great value. As a college student, that is paying for most of my education myself, I rarely have any disposable income and the little I do have has been going towards infinity products as its easy to buy a 10 blister once a month. This blister also has a lot more value than a similar GW blister, because of each model in infinity having a much greater level of interaction within the game. I can also strip the paint when I feel like it, something not as easily done with a plastic or resin model (as far as I know most GW blisters are that way?)
If GW had a skirmish game I would definitely be inclined to purchase it as those scale of games are easy for me to regularly purchase a blister pack or two. In addition I would love if they brought back the specialist games, I' ve only been in the war gaming hobby for a little less than 2 years and as a result never had a chance to get into BFG, Epic, etc. I would branch off into those games, especially if there was a fairly priced starter box (not 100 dollars, 40-60) that had 2 forces, rules, templates, etc.
Now getting back into 40k? That would be tough because I am not really interested in the current rules, they just are not fun now that I have played other games. Randomness is fine, but its silly the amount that is in 6th edition, then the balancing of the game always had me scratching my head. I'd like a huge reboot, but that is not feasible and I don't think GW would ever do that.
When I first started 40k with a bunch of friends at the very tail end of 5th edition it was fun! I only had ~1000 point Blood Angels army, but it was great I thought besides the very obvious balancing issues. I still had fun though, but then 6th came out and I started to grow very disinterested in the game because with it came even more terribly balanced armies. I think that is one thing I got annoyed with though is how armies are updated. Instead of giving several armies updates at a time (such as releasing new units for several armies every month or 2) for some reason GW releases whole codex updates that don't make sense to me because of how badly balanced they can be and causes some armies to languish while others get updates and with it increasingly powerful units.
If balance was established I would get involved with 40k again. I understand 40k and Infinity are very different games, but having rules accessible online for free gives infinity an edge in my opinion. Imagine if 40k had a rules wiki, would that not be awesome? Or official forums? Or even at the very least a small amount of communication with fans?
I respect you if you finished this post. Lol I lost my focus very quickly and may edit later for clarity.
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
comparing GW minis/games to other off brand ones is like comparing coke to RC cola... very different flavours.. very different things...
all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.
a coke bottle costs me 2.50, a RC bottle costs me 1$... so? does that mean coke is over priced, or are you just getting what you pay for.
I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...
*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*
in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.
You don't fully grasp why making a comparison between GW and snowboarding is pointless, do you?
Your post somehow manages to create a perfectly valid comparison, but you actually believe its wrong.
A comparison between Coca-Cola and RC cola is a perfectly valid example and exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. This is comparing two products in the exact same product category. When I'm picking a bottle of pop to drink, I don't look at the price of Coca-Cola and think how much cheaper it is than a snowboard.
Likewise, when you're discussing the prices of a one wargaming company, the only comparisons that matter are the prices of another wargaming company. I don't know why the size, fluff background, or amount of armies (really?) has to do with anything when discussing the prices of a plastic tank kit or a sprue of infantry.
Your problem is that you're trying to compare GW to a GW clone, when the discussion is about the value of GW as a wargaming company compared to other wargames and their value. It costs roughly between $500-1000 for a 1500pts ish army (depends on the specific list), while that same $500-1000 can buy me 6000pts of Firestorm Armada. Consider that an average game of Firestorm is run at 800-1200pts.
Now that's an example of the value of a GW game vs. another game.
When discussing the value of the kits, then you talk about any and all similar models. As another example; I play Mordian Iron Guard. I can pay $50 for 10 Mordians from GW, or I can go to Vic Minis and pay $45 for 10 not-Mordians. When you consider that the Vic minis kit is multi-part resin, with more detail, and comes with far options including a special weapon, there's really no choice what to buy.
That's the value of a GW kit. You can do the same for many other sprues they produce; much of their fantasy line when compared to Mantic as an example.
While the point you're making is that its somehow logical to say that a squad of space marines is cheap because my hobby car cost me $5000. Its completely, 100% illogical and has zero relevance to discussing how GW's prices are becoming increasingly more absurd, which is only emphasized and underscored by the rise of cheaper alternatives, whether through entirely different games (Firestorm Armada) or alternative kits designed for 28mm heroic games (Victoria Miniatures).
At this point, I'm not entirely sure GW could actually win me back at all. I'll break down my reasons into sections. For reference, I got into both WFB and 40k around the year 2000, and gave up on both in late 2012.
- Models:
While GW's plastic models have (mostly) been very impressive for the last few years, in my personal experience the "Finecast Debacle" was/is every bit as extreme as the internet claimed it to be. In addition to that, while some of the extremely large models they've brought out are undoubtedly very cool to look at (Arachnarok, Tyrannofex, Riptide, etc), just as many have been boxy, childish eyesores. Either way, I feel many are too large for "standard" games.
Finally on this front, I think I've grown bored with the aesthetic. Time was, almost every range they produced would thrill me equally. But now I'm so sick of the freakin' Imperium and it's "SKULLS AND METAL BOXES FOR ALL" aesthetic. Lately, only Tyranid, Tau, Dark Eldar and Dark Elf models have any lure for me at all. Why don't I buy them? That brings me to section two:
- Prices:
I'm not saying GW should lower their prices, but as a New Zealander, paying prices comparable to Australia, it's very easy to say "no more" when a company expects $75 for a box of ten Tactical Marines, $85 for five Sternguard. Again, I'm not in a position to dictate how GW set their prices, but I am in a position to walk away laughing after seeing the pricetag on things. I suppose if they did lower prices, it'd make it easier for me to choose to go back to the company, but price was fairly far down the list of "reasons to quit" for me.
- Rules:
Let me just say this: I haven't enjoyed a single game of 40k since 4th, and I even found 4th pretty frustrating. I also have not enjoyed any games of 8th Fantasy that I've played, and 7th didn't really do much for me either. It's easy to call "rose tinted glasses" here, but for a long time, the game has felt like a chore to be done in order to appease my friends and justify my collection more than an aspect of the hobby I indulge in to relax.
If GW released (or re-released) a solid skirmish ruleset, I'd buy that in a heartbeat, however.
What would get me back into the core games?
*Make Fantasy about manoeuvring again, with magic something that can help along the way rather than being the biggest part of the game (at least around here). Remove random charging. Remove/change the rules around hordes.
*Make 40k MUCH simpler and more streamlined. Remove almost all random tables. Remove/merge most of the USRs. Remove random Assault distances. Make big stuff like fliers, Riptides, 6-wound Tyranids etc available only after the 1500pts mark has been exceeded. Make it much easier to play smaller games straight out of the rulebook.
- The Company Itself:
I won't go on about this side of things for very long. I'm well aware that most "big" companies are amoral at best sometimes, but lately GW has been making some frankly pig-headed moves (the Spots the Space Marine thing immediately comes to mind, as does the unnecessarily long Chapterhouse issue), and it comes down to this - I'm sure mega-companies that I buy from every day do horrible things all the time, but I'm only buying a can of soda or a hamburger at a time off those guys and don't even think about it. When the choice is spending all of my disposable on something, I'm more likely to support a company that I just assume is full of jerks as opposed to one I know is full of jerks.
- The Kick(start)er:
The biggest reason I probably wouldn't get back on the GW wagon, even if they did make some or all of the changes I mention, is the amount and quality of competition. In particular, the recent Prodos Games Alien vs. Predator kickstarter has already seen me flog off the bulk of my Tyranids and Guard, as I straight up don't need or want them any more in light of licensed Alien and Colonial Marine figures. Add to that stuff like Malifaux and Infinity, which I don't play but do buy models from because I prefer the aesthetic, and GeeDubs has a lot of catching up to do to in order for me to be interested again. Sigmarites and Adeptus Astartes just don't do it for me any more.
- The Twist:
Due to my backlog of figures, I still paint GW figures almost every week, and would play either 40k3e or Necromunda again in a flash if I could round up a group who was interested. We still play Mordheim locally too, although unfortunately not many of those guys are interested in 40k or its' spin-offs.
Wow, that was a much longer post than I intended it to be. Thanks to anyone who actually read it.
riburn3 wrote: In regards to you atmosphere of despair, I largely think that only exists on the internet.
You are very wrong here, We trash GWs games as much in IRL, as we do on the Internet.
That is purely anecdotal. Just like my example. My community has been doing nothing but adding players to Warmahordes, Fantasy, and 40k for the last 5 years since I've been here. I live in a metro of 1 million people, in one of the poorest regions of the United States, and the hobby has only been growing. No one is despairing.
Other folks here are going to be splashing around anecdotes of the exact opposite, of entire groups leaving the hobby, just like you. Obviously I know an atmosphere of despair exists to some degree (heck I created this thread so I'm aware), but your lone anecdote does not make that so, just like mine doesn't counter yours. All of us provide anecdotal evidence. Fantasy seems to be dying but there are dozens here saying its thriving in their group. Whose right? At the end of the day, GW is still much larger than their competitors, sit on some good IP, and have weathered numerous storms in the past.
Lastly, if you don't think people turn to the internet to complain and voice their concern over individuals that are completely satisfied with a product, you are deluding yourself.
My point was that people complain as much IRL, in real life as they do on the Internet. And if alot of people are complaining both on the Internet, and with the groups of players they interact with, there is something wrong with the product. And People are not leaving the Table-top Hobby they are moving to other games. And Games Workshop has always gotten alot of complaints, I should know i have been in this hobby since the 80s. But the diffrence now if you compare it too the 90s and early-mid 2000, is that the market is very diffrent. Today we have options, back in the 90s you could go and play Mutant chronicles, but that was about it. In the mid 2000 you had the french rackham confrontation. None of them were any serious contenders to games workshop. But today we have Warmachine/hordes, they have been around over a decade now, we have Flames of War, also been around a long time. Then we have the rising smaller companies like Mantic, Infinity and Malifaux etc. After that we have a bunch of even smaller games, Kensai, Bushido, Carnivale and dust tactics etc. And finaly at the bottom we have all the kickstarter projects.. This makes the choises for us as players almost endless in this day of age. And GW needs to understand this and make changes or they will just continue to lose market shares. They wont go down today and not tomorrow, but if they dont change, I predict by the year 2020, that they will not still be the leading Table Top game on the market.
But the diffrence betwen all the competition and GW is that the competition are making rules that atleast try to be balanced. They are also using all the experince of several decades too try and make Fresh rules that fit the times. GW is still stuck with core rule mechanics created back in the 80s-90s. There is a huge diffrence here if you ask me.
The last years have seen the turning point, GW is falling back, one step at a time. year after year they cut more... 2013 being the worst jet, when they cut down to one man stores, increased prices yet again, made new trading agreements with independents to stop internet sales. Rushed alot of codex releases(a thing that has never happend in the companies history before), to try and get more of their products sold.... I predict that 2014 will be an abysmal year of disappointments for them... Because the people who have left, dont want to come back, even if they lower prices, because price is just something that people say is the problem, if it is fun people will pay, but the sad fact is that the products that GW produces are not FUN to play.. and that is the main problem here, And the people who left are now having alot more fun playing other games.
all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.
Fail.
(1)factions. Warmachine and hordes (same game, by the way) have 10 main factions, with six sub factions. And another main faction inbound. Infinity has eight or nine. Dystopian wars has about a dozen. Flames of war has everything from Finns to polish resistance. And Romanians.
(2) small player base? Maybe in your area bud. But I've seen the warmachine player base explode in size in two countries. 40k died. As to them not being around in a few years, Corvus belli grew by 75% last year! gw is the one to lose 30% of its profits! and 25% of its value. I dunno, I don't think it's a fair point.
(3) small amounts of fluff. Yeah right. I've got several 300+ page sourcebooks detailing the 4,000 years of history, nations and culture of the iron kingdoms to hand. It's been there for ten years bud. Fluff is immense, rich, gritty, characterful, and growing.
(4) using old gw models? Fair deuce, I've not used my gw models in five years, bar one game. Doesn't say much to me about them.
I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...
*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*
Plenty folks play them. When I played gw games back in Ireland, it was all I knew. The wargaming community as I knew it was all gw playing. Then I got out if it, got into warmachine, and discovered and equally vibrant community. It was large, growing, and simply did not cross paths with my circles. Those games no one plays? Try another one bud. Plenty people play them. Last tine I was home, I went to my old lgs and asked how the community had shifted. 40k was gone, warmAchine was in. Though I can't comment on your areas meta, I find it hard to believe no one plays anything else. Maybe if you went out, you'd find that, like in my case, the communities simply don't cross over?
in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.
You do realise gw does 'generic' in every way? They have no unique concepts in any of their works, if anything, generic applies to them more than anyone else... 40k s nothing more than a '...but in space!' port of fantasy, which is generic fantasy, and Tolkien 101 all the way through.
As to referring to those games asgeneric versions of 40k, or cheaper Knock offs, all you are doing is displaying your ignorance. Fair enough on kings of war, but warmachine? Infinity? Dystopian wars? Come off if mate, maybe you should get off your high horse and check those games out? The iron kingdoms are a very evocative, characterful setting. Trust me, they're no knock offs of gw ip.corvus bellis models are the best in the business, by a country mile.
-------
To answer the op, I don't think gw could get me back.ive been spoiled by privateer press and Corvus belli too much. I have too many issues with the game, with the shocking Lack of professionalism in the design of the game, the contempt shown to the community at large, and the models are to me, too cartoony and aesthetics are over the top, (amusing one that, considering I play warmachine!) and silly. I've simply disliked too much the direction, and lack of vision for the game over the last few years. Beyond that, I find the fluff silly and childish (even the stuff I loved when I got into it! Reading it again, it's extremely lacklustre) and I don't see the game as fun. Others do, fair enough. But it's not for me, so I voted with my wallet and moved on.
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
all the cheaper mini games have like 3-5 armies tops, small playerbase, might not be around in a few years, small amount of fluff ect ect... where as with GW I still use models I bought 14+ years ago.
I prefer coke to RC, because it tastes better, that is worth the extra cost... same reason for 40k over warmahordinfinitymalifux or any one of those games that no one plays...
*people do play xwing and attack wing around here, those games are cool*
in terms of there being cheaper generic versions of 40k, yeah for sure, but in terms of ABLSOLUTE costs 40k is a cheap-moderately priced hobby, which has cheap knockoffs that are of course, cheaper.
I find it interesting that you are still stuck in the 90s mentality "Might not be around in a few years", "or any one of those games that no one plays", those arguments are in the past if you ask me. Most of the competition has been around more then a decade, others have been around half a decade, Then we have alot of new games beside those.
I have never met anyone that seriously tried to play another game, that after doing so whent back to GWs games. I sugest you stop this foolish white knighting and quit GW, you will not regreat it.. And the Competition is only growing and is not going anywhere, this is not the 90s. The Year is 2014... you really should get with the times...
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
This. And GW loses in pretty much every case. If you compare to Warmahordes, it can get just as expensive but for a full/diverse force, not the basics that you need just to get started (I could buy a standard-sized and diverse Warmachines force for what it would cost to get a starter points value Warhammer army). If you compare to Warlord/Perry/Mantic, GW loses in everything other than possibly quality, and even quality-wise their competitors aren't that awful for tabletop gaming quality.
I think the prices would be far more tolerable if the games were more compatible with lower model counts, and designed so that individual models mattered more. Needing to put 100+ dudes on the table is hard to contemplate. It's harder when I might be removing 20+ of them in the first turn before they get to do anything.
well we have a hard time filling 10 slots for warmahordes at our tournaments... but 30-40 slots each for 40k and fantasy always sell out...
seems like GW kicked your dogs or something... Im not white knighting them, I am just complaining about different things then you are... apparently I have to rage out at GW $'s and prices alone or I am white knighting.
you seem to be really upset that a box of GW minis costs 10$ more then a box of some other minis... ok you have every right to play/not play a game solely based on price.
I actually started on other mini wargames first and ended up enjoying 40k the most, seems like a lot of people in this thread dont enjoy GW, and dont want others to enjoy GW.
its still a cheap-moderately expensive hobby...
I can buy 4 steam punk warjacks for 49.99 they are terminator sized minis
( even 9 factions worth of the almost the exact same thing) I definitely do not see any large distinction (visually) or variation between the warmahordes players armies, everything seems like its 1/3 main armies with one or two models that are different. caster, warjacks, big warjack, some infantry... done.. sub monsters for steam robots for hordes and repeat...
YAWNNNNNNNN
60$ gets my 5 terminators... (even several factions of different space men!) not really a game breaking price difference... and while the factions may not play all that different, I certainly see the different aesthetics between chaos, SW, GK, ect terminators, not so with the warjacks
and this is full GW retail, and anyone with a brain is buying it at 25-30% off at a FLGS or online... so realistically it costs 45-50$
soo, WH has 4 models for 50$, and I can get GW product 5 models, for 50$....
Until they show that they can make a superior product that is worth buying at one of the highest prices around, I am out.
Seeing them flop like this and potentially cutting products out all together scares me enough to stay clear until resolution is reached. I will buy an army and sit on it in hopes that their new book will make them a commodity. This is no longer the case. I don't plan on buying into a potentially sinking ship until the holes are filled.
Okay, well ignoring the unnecessary tone of your post, do you understand what value is?
Sure, the price of Cadians may be cheaper than a box of WM/H troops, but how many Cadians do you need versus the WM/H box for a standard game?
No one is raging, or crying, or anything else you wish to project on our posts. The point most of us are calmly making is that the value of GW kits does not match the price tag. The other point is that GW would do well to freeze the prices at the very least and add a little extra to the current boxes. Alternatively, making the game more oriented to skirmish level (sub 1000pts) would also lower the overall cost of 40k/Fantasy.
By the way, the popularity of WM/H vs. 40k at your club means nothing to popularity of the game as a whole, nor does it have any bearing on this discussion.
Furthermore, most of us want to enjoy 40k and are discussing ways in which GW would entice us back. That's the point of the thread. Obviously most of the people in this thread are not happy with GW but would really like for 40k to a game truly worth its price tag.
yup and when GW started, you only needed a few models to start...
over time, a company HAS to expand that or die... they cannot sell you 15 models, and live off that profit for decade after decade...
and you have a very bad tone...
"agree with me that GW is over priced, even though this other game costs more per model it all works out because they will NEVER make us have to buy more models"
now the argument has gone from "gw minis cost more" which is false,
to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false,
you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.
unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...
if you want to play 40k then play it, reduce you pts size if you cannot afford a 1850pts army.. its literally that simple... no one is forcing you to play larger games.
Its complete BS to say that a game like warmahordes with MORE expensive models, costs less, then a game with less expensive models, because you HAVE to buy more of the less expensive models, when in fact, you certainly do NOT have to buy more of the less expensive models at all.
The points you play at largely depends on the people around you. You "can" play 40k with just 2 Troops and an HQ, but how many people would be willing to always play at that level? WM/H has set points for a reason like that, and its reasonable to get. 15 points is generally a battle box, or a battle box + additional model (total of maybe $100 or less). Normal value games are generally 35 points, with tournaments tending to be 50 points, which still runs you less than it would take to START a 40k/WHFB army at 750-1000 points in most cases. So you can spend $300 or so and have a typical WM/H army that you can play against the majority of opponents outside of the large-scale fights, or pay $300 and have the basic starting 40K/WHFB force and likely need to spend another $300 or so to get a decent/normal sized army.
unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...
Generally speaking, unless you significantly alter many written rules, you MUST start a GW game at 500 points.
And the difference between 40k/WHFB and WM/H is that, when PP release a new unit or army, they don't completely invalidate all previous units/models the way that GW generally does.
As your previous example, buying a 50 dollar box in Warmachine gets you a sizable portion of your army, depending on size of game you are playing. In 40k, 50 bucks gets you a much smaller portion of your force size, unless you're playing a 500 or 1000 point game... then it's a huge chunk of your force (points wise)
easysauce wrote: well we have a hard time filling 10 slots for warmahordes at our tournaments... but 30-40 slots each for 40k and fantasy always sell out...
seems like GW kicked your dogs or something... Im not white knighting them, I am just complaining about different things then you are... apparently I have to rage out at GW $'s and prices alone or I am white knighting.
you seem to be really upset that a box of GW minis costs 10$ more then a box of some other minis... ok you have every right to play/not play a game solely based on price.
I actually started on other mini wargames first and ended up enjoying 40k the most, seems like a lot of people in this thread dont enjoy GW, and dont want others to enjoy GW.
its still a cheap-moderately expensive hobby...
I can buy 4 steam punk warjacks for 49.99 they are terminator sized minis
( even 9 factions worth of the almost the exact same thing) I definitely do not see any large distinction (visually) or variation between the warmahordes players armies, everything seems like its 1/3 main armies with one or two models that are different. caster, warjacks, big warjack, some infantry... done.. sub monsters for steam robots for hordes and repeat...
YAWNNNNNNNN
60$ gets my 5 terminators... (even several factions of different space men!) not really a game breaking price difference... and while the factions may not play all that different, I certainly see the different aesthetics between chaos, SW, GK, ect terminators, not so with the warjacks
and this is full GW retail, and anyone with a brain is buying it at 25-30% off at a FLGS or online... so realistically it costs 45-50$
soo, WH has 4 models for 50$, and I can get GW product 5 models, for 50$....
A company can expand without constantly upping the size of the game and increasing the buy in cost. Its exactly what GW has done, and its certainly not creating any growth, quite the opposite really.
I'm not telling you need to agree with me. I'm explaining that the value of a GW model does not compare well with other games for numerous reasons. GW minis do cost more per model than many other games. People have already admitted that PP sells some expensive kits, but that's offset significantly by the amount of models you need to have a large army. For the cost of a 1000pts 40k army, I could have a significantly larger force (relative to the standard game size) in WM/H.
Sure, I can play any point level I want, but if I'm not playing kill team, the minimum force org chart generally fills 500pts, so any extras rapidly bring that up 1000+pts. We can't have a discussion on the cost of 40k if you're not going to admit that a normal game of 40k is played at 1000+pts due to the nature of the force org chart and the points cost of units. Assuming that to be true, 40k/Fantasy are more expensive than most other wargames.
Just because WM/H isn't a perfect example doesn't mean GW isn't costlier. Other game systems from other manufacturers are significantly cheaper. People are leaving Fantasy for Mantic's Kings of War or at least using the models.
Anyways, I'm clearly not going anywhere with you on this, but GW's prices are not cheap. Just about every game system offers better value, whether in the quality of the kit, number of models, or proportional size of a playable army. A 1500pts 40k army will run at least $500. Few other games have such a high buy in for a basic sized force, ignoring the cost of rules and codices that other companies release for free or far cheaper.
I have a fairly extensive collection and the player base in my area is still pretty good, so I'm not dropping out. However I'm not exactly a bastion of defense for them either.
From what I can tell they need to do two things fairly quickly. The first is to change prices so that they make sense. It's well into fantasy land at the moment.
Second they need to get serious with customer service, with the first step being to start fixing the rules. I shouldn't have to buy a book like stronghold assault or death from the skies in order to get rule fixes. Those should have been FAQd. We shouldn't have real questions that are outstanding for years.
A year ago GW appeared to finally get onto the right track by rapid firing FAQs. Then, in April, they stopped. Whoever made that decision should be fired. Get back to the monthly FAQ release. Show us that you are actually listening to the fan base.
Next, stop asking me to buy the exact same rules over and over again. I already bought apoc, Escalation could have been a one page FAQ for all the new content it brought. It was certainly not worth the $50 price tag.
If you want to sell more books, follow forgeworld and publish scenario packs with missions. Basically, tell a story with the game. If you are actually "beer and pretzels" then this is what works.
Lastly, figure out what a beer and pretzels game is. 40k is about as far from that as stock car racing is to golf.
I'm not telling you need to agree with me. I'm explaining that the value of a GW model does not compare well with other games for numerous reasons. GW minis do cost more per model than many other games. People have already admitted that PP sells some expensive kits, but that's offset significantly by the amount of models you need to have a large army. For the cost of a 1000pts 40k army, I could have a significantly larger force (relative to the standard game size) in WM/H.
To expand upon the strawman example using the Cadians in an above post, ignoring the fact I can also buy those Trenchers at a discount. Said Trenchers are a full unit with all their optional weapon attachments. In one box. The Cadians are not usable ingame out of the box as anything other than Veterans/Penal Legion. You need at least one more box and a command squad to make them usable as what the packaging says they are. Even then you don't even get al of the options, unlike the Trencher box.
To expand upon the strawman example using the Cadians in an above post, ignoring the fact I can also buy those Trenchers at a discount. Said Trenchers are a full unit with all their optional weapon attachments. In one box. The Cadians are not usable ingame out of the box as anything other than Veterans/Penal Legion. You need at least one more box and a command squad to make them usable as what the packaging says they are. Even then you don't even get al of the options, unlike the Trencher box.
Here is what turned me off Games Workshop, in order of importance to me, which also is what I'd like to see fixed:
1.) Awful, convoluted rules
I think the rules are far too complex, too unclear, and too numerous. I would like to see a much simplified ruleset. Saying "beer and pretzels" isn't a free pass to release lousy rules. And I quit back in 5th! I can scarcely imagine how bad it is now, when you need a rulebook, your codex, a supplement, and then an allies codex and maybe supplement as well! Plus day 1 FAQ's and corrections! No, no thank you.
2.) Increasingly poor sculpts, Finecast
Obviously this is very subjective. In my experience releases used to be pretty good to awesome (Grey Knights, Necrons) aesthetically, and then they'd have one laughably bad model (Wraithknight, Orikan) which was alright. However at some point in the last few years that seems to have changed some. It seems that some releases now have a lot of really crappy models (Chaos) and that others seem to be the same old models with no real new stuff or innovation except with one made really big (Riptide, Wraithknight). Kinda lame. Also, the skull-spackle on every blank surface is a little stupid too.
Finecast needs no further explanation and as far as I know is already on the way out anyway.
3.) Prices
I can accept that prices for this game are very high but they are also for the very finest models on the market. In 2014, though, that no longer seems to be true. Not only do I not like the aesthetics as much as I did, it's clear that other vendors can deliver models that look just as good quality and sculpting wise, such as Dreamforge. At that point I start to question the value proposition. When a Land Raider was $45 when I started playing in 2009 and is $75 as of 2013, I start to feel like maybe GWS thinks I'm a sucker. PS, my job sold bottles of soda for $1.25 in 2006, and those bottled sodas are $1.35 this afternoon, so I don't think that analogy from earlier holds up either.
Still, the prices are not a serious consideration for me over the other two factors.
to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false,
you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.
Except for the fact that 40K and WHFB are unbalanced messes at lower points levels, and to play the games at the generally accepted "normal" levels (1500-2000 for 40K, 2000+ for WHFB, 35 to 50 for WarmaHordes), a WMH force costs less than a 40K or WHFB force. I freely admit, if you like to have shedloads of models, then GW is a better deal, but Warmahordes is a cheaper *game*.
Also if you don't see the aesthetic difference between Warmahordes armies, you're not looking, though I'll admit they generally look more similar at a glance than 40K armies.
[quote-even 13 basic plastic infantry from WH's is 50$...
15 basic cadians costs 47$....(again, they are 25-30% cheaper if you dont buy at GW)
And you need four+ boxes of Cadians for your infantry platoons, but you'll basically never need more than one box of Trenchers.
My 35pt Cygnar army is $192 USD.
The 1500 point Imperial Guard list I wrote (since you want to use IG as a example, apparently) is $567.00USD.
price per model is still higher then GW, and people in this thread keep saying GW is more expensive, when it is not... PPM it is cheaper.
that, for now at least, you need far far far fewer models for WmH is nice... for now... until people want to play bigger games, or the company realizes it cannot sell you 15 models once and profit for multiple decades off of that one sale.
the converse is also true, who plays WmH at larger sized games? or apoc sized games? what about those that want large games with lots of different models?
some people dont want small model count armies, and thats just as ok as wanting small M count armies.
take for example the starter set from WmH
Price:
$99.99*
Model Count:
17
vs starter set for 40k 48 miniatures @ 119$
both let you play the respective games 2 player, sure the GW box costs 20$ more, but you get 3x the models...
I have played plenty of small pts games, usually against younger kids who cannot afford to amass a large army in a short space of time, and 400-750 is still a lot of fun for all involved.
My 35pt Cygnar army is $192 USD.
The 1500 point Imperial Guard list I wrote (since you want to use IG as a example, apparently) is $567.00USD.
What was that about prices again?
how many models in your cygnar army?
how many models in your IG army?
notice how the IG army has far more models, cheaper price per model...
why not compare WmH to an Apoc army? then its super expensive as 3k costs even more then 1500 pts... heck why stop there? why not go into the 10k zone... thats super expensive! way more then WmH....
a FAIR comparison, like the one I made, is to compare the price per model, as the # of models you need for 40k is completely subjective and under your control, while WmH forces you to play with ~20 models.
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
Because if they compare the prices to other companies' games then it becomes obvious that GW is overpricing... and they don't want to do that, now do they?
Buying GW miniatures is less expensive than outfitting a nuclear powered aircraft carrier, so it's a bargain!
The Auld Grump - heck, even within the hobby the balance is off - GW uses plastic, and owns its own manufactory... they pay less per model than anybody else, then charge more....
easysauce wrote: yup and when GW started, you only needed a few models to start...
over time, a company HAS to expand that or die... they cannot sell you 15 models, and live off that profit for decade after decade...
My best friend was really into Bloodbowl. At most you need 16 miniatures and miniatures for cheerleaders, refs or coaching staff if you really, really want to. So did he buy one team and that was that? No. He owns every team.
In lower model count games when people get towards being done with their army, they start another.
to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false, you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.
unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...
You're trolling us right? This can't be serious.
"Forcing you to start at 15 pts." Oh. That's precious. Wrong, but precious. The starter boxes average 11 points. "has no support for "normal" sized armies? What does that even mean? Surely it doesn't mean the constant slew of well tested scenarios they publish for free every year in their Steamroller pdf? Or the update cycle that includes stuff for every faction so there's always more options for your army rather than having to wait for splash releases.
As for apocalypse sized games, you might want to take a look at the Unbound rules in Colossals and Gargantuan books for a rules variant meant to do exactly that.
yup and when GW started, you only needed a few models to start...
over time, a company HAS to expand that or die... they cannot sell you 15 models, and live off that profit for decade after decade...
and you have a very bad tone...
"agree with me that GW is over priced, even though this other game costs more per model it all works out because they will NEVER make us have to buy more models"
now the argument has gone from "gw minis cost more" which is false,
to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false,
you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.
unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...
if you want to play 40k then play it, reduce you pts size if you cannot afford a 1850pts army.. its literally that simple... no one is forcing you to play larger games.
Its complete BS to say that a game like warmahordes with MORE expensive models, costs less, then a game with less expensive models, because you HAVE to buy more of the less expensive models, when in fact, you certainly do NOT have to buy more of the less expensive models at all.
Why are you trying to prove people's opinions wrong? If people are saying that GW needs to be cheaper for them to buy back in, them that's that, no amount of bleating from you about relative model costs is going to make any difference. Perhaps people are happier paying more per model for Warmachine because the rules aren't utter gak, the company's relationship with its customer base isn't shot to hell and people feel like an appreciated customer rather than an exploited resource? (FWIW I don't play Warmachine, so no counter knighting here)
Even if you managed to somehow conclusively prove that 40K is cheaper to play than every other game on the fething planet, good luck with that, the fact remains that the perception of the game is that it is too expensive. In the face of public perception, facts are irrelevant, and the "price problem" needs to be addressed, even if it doesn't factually exist (it does.)
Blacksails wrote: Why are people comparing GW prices to other hobbies?
They're two unrelated things. If you're going to make comparisons, do them to other miniature companies.
Because if they compare the prices to other companies' games then it becomes obvious that GW is overpricing... and they don't want to do that, now do they?
Buying GW miniatures is less expensive than outfitting a nuclear powered aircraft carrier, so it's a bargain!
The Auld Grump - heck, even within the hobby the balance is off - GW uses plastic, and owns its own manufactory... they pay less per model than anybody else, then charge more....
You know, maybe that's the attitude I should have when buying my models online.
"Only $150 for a baneblade? Well its cheaper than that new car I want, so let it riiiiidddeeeee!"
I have played plenty of small pts games, usually against younger kids who cannot afford to amass a large army in a short space of time, and 400-750 is still a lot of fun for all involved.
I disagree, small games of 40K are terrible. Also, conversely, you can just spend $50 and have a small game of Warhmahordes.
how many models in your cygnar army?
how many models in your IG army?
notice how the IG army has far more models, cheaper price per model...
why not compare WmH to an Apoc army? then its super expensive as 3k costs even more then 1500 pts... heck why stop there? why not go into the 10k zone... thats super expensive! way more then WmH....
a FAIR comparison, like the one I made, is to compare the price per model, as the # of models you need for 40k is completely subjective and under your control, while WmH forces you to play with ~20 models.
Except I could give a flying feth about model count; or at least, it isn't a key factor in my enjoyment of miniatures games (though 8th WHFB, at least as it was played in my local meta, tried my patience on that front; 150 Skaven in an army? Blocks of 50 Chaos Warriors? Ewwwww). I want to play enjoyable games. I absolutely have no problem with GW armies being more expensive than Warmahorde armies, nor do I have a problem with Warmahordes kits being more expensive than GW kits (though this is rapidly becoming untrue with the $35 Dire Avengers and $60 Witch Elves). What I look at is: "What's the minimum I have to buy to actually start playing the game to really get a full appreciation for the rule set? How much will it cost to buy a force of the size the ruleset is balanced around?" In both cases, Warmahordes wins. I'm totally willing to play a premium for miniatures. I'd totally buy that IG army for more than I paid for the Warmahordes army, but not three times as much.
With all that said, it isn't so much the price of a full GW army (though it's a factor), it's the mediocre rules and gakky corporate attitude that really keep me away. The price sure as hell doesn't help them at all, though.
The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.
Compared to other high quality plastic injection molded model kits, GWis more expensive model to model. If you want to cherry pick favorable examples, allow me to retort:
Perry Brothers.
You can get a box of perry plastic infantry with lots of options and bits for less than a dollar per model, more than half the cost, model for model, than a Cadian Shock Trooper.
Price per model isn't what's being compared though, it's price for starting. A 1,500 point IG army is the "standard" size army that people play; sure you can play in an Escalation League that starts at 200 or 500 or 750, but 1,500 is the generally-accepted normal size battle. For WM/H that value is, to my understanding, 35 or 50, and personally I think that $566 is on the low side; I know I did a price comparison to Kings of War and the same number of models for a WHFB Undead army was $588 (around $470 if you had the rules and army book) for what was $175 and a starting force in Kings of War terms (I didn't check the corresponding points cost from GW).
Anyways, the point isn't that GW has a lower price per model than WM/H, it's that I can spend the same amount on a "standard" 40K army (let's say $500 for simplicity) as I can on a varied WM/H force that, ultimately, gives me more flexibility in what I field and when than being a rigid structure that I have to use because it's all I've got.
Since I haven't ditched GW yet, allow me to point out why I haven't switched to warmahordes and why I still do 40k.
1) The models are cohesive, thematic and form a representation of a large force that is unique. Warmahordes gives you a handful of different models that follow a loose theme like USSR inspired.
2) I vastly prefer large scale battles with 28mm heroic to skirmish games. It looks and feels more pleasing and feels less about the gameplay itself.
3) The community for WM/H around here never paint their models. At all. Again relating to the above point, the only reason to switch is in the pursuit of better gameplay, and that is not my sole incentive.
4) I love the themes, models and lore for 40k beyond measure, can't understand in the slightest where the dribble about the models being sub-par come from outside of specialist, unfair comparisons and I absolutely detest the models for WM/H.
5) You can't put a price on the enjoyment of building a good, thematic 40k army with lore depth and then playing largely variable scale battles with it.
6) The only alternatives in terms of actually standing a chance of getting a game for each system are Flames of War and Warmahordes. The former would require great patience still and far rarer games, the latter I have no interest in.
Ok an example- Landraider. it was $45 on release mid/early 2004 ish? The price is currently $75 right now. Serious would be around $50/$55. Battle wagon, landraider are not worth more then then $55.
A price cut would help , but what would help most would be rules.
40k rules seemed to me to be based on a guardsman equivalent originally ( I played 1st and second edition - I've read 3rd and 4th) and haven't seemed to have adapted well to having a meq as the usual trooper. Simplicity would help , warmachines rules as someone pointed out earlier are much simpler , the most complex being the cavalry rules. All the big things are easy to remember and uncomplicated.
Also too many marines, marines are boring and seem to have lost the ambiguous nature they used to possess. I was always a fan of the xenos, chaos and to a lesser extent the guard. Everything nowdays seems to be marines, marines, marines to the extent that people think that the orks aren't the most populous race in the universe.
Why people get excited about sexless , monkish super humans who beat everything i'll never know. Marines just don't seem to have much going on on a psychological level , eldar are fighting the end of their race, Orks have conquered fear completely and manipulate the universe around them to fit in with their idea of how things work, chaos delve into the corruption that humans face, guards fight a hopeless war against the enemies of the imperium and marines, well marines fight and win vs all comers , proudly representing unhumanity , and er a few turn to chaos, boom boom.
Honestly? Nothing will get me back into GW products. I'm enjoying giving my hard earned money to all the companies that actually work for my money. Plus, I'd have to go back to a narrow product selection because there is no way I'd be able to afford more than GW stuff, so I'd be dropping Historicals, Warmachine/Hordes, KoW, Dreadball, X-Wing, Freeblades, and Dropzone Commander. Mmmmm, no thanks.
i) Price drops/ more value per box (no more price rise with less models)
ii) Customer loyalty/ awareness - listen to complaints, and change accordingly.
iii) Better written/ updates rules (or at least provide free online codices to accommodate all those FAQs)
iv) Bring back free pdfs for things. Charging people for "dataslates" is cheap and unnecessary.
v) Improve the codices themselves. Back in 3rd edition codices were filled with tactics, modelling tips and ideas for games. This helped to support newer players. The new books lack soul.
vi) A greater involvement of GW in using their stores for gaming and tournaments. The old atmosphere of many GW stores is not what it once was.
I buy recast models today, because GW at best does not support its followers, and at worst openly abuses them.
The best way to protest against a company is through your wallet. However I don't see why I should limit my hobby because the GW managers are interested in making a quick buck at the expense of long term stability.
I would have to see a lot of change before I would consider buying from their stores again.
seems like GW kicked your dogs or something... Im not white knighting them, I am just complaining about different things then you are... apparently I have to rage out at GW $'s and prices alone or I am white knighting.
Nah, not really. I just grew up, and just like I lost interest in kiddie toys, I lost interest in 40k. And to be fair, whilst you’re not “white knighting” GW, you’re being appallingly ignorant, dismissive, and ill-informed of other games out there. That’s what rankles people, methinks, not your liking of 40k (like it all you want bud, I’ve got no dog in the fight)
I actually started on other mini wargames first and ended up enjoying 40k the most, seems like a lot of people in this thread dont enjoy GW, and dont want others to enjoy GW.
Even if I like something, I also like to be objective about it-blame my science degree. the original animated transformers movie is still my favourite movie ever (nostalgia for the win), but it is a terribly constructed and error-loaded movie. I like it… but I’m honest about its faults.
its still a cheap-moderately expensive hobby...
I can buy 4 steam punk warjacks for 49.99 they are terminator sized minis
60$ gets my 5 terminators...
and this is full GW retail, and anyone with a brain is buying it at 25-30% off at a FLGS or online... so realistically it costs 45-50$
soo, WH has 4 models for 50$, and I can get GW product 5 models, for 50$....
even 13 basic plastic infantry from WH's is 50$...
15 basic cadians costs 47$....(again, they are 25-30% cheaper if you dont buy at GW)
what was that about prices again?
Which is why you don’t see me raising the “price” argument. I don’t see it as valid. I’ve shelled out two £50 orders for individual minis from Hasslefree (awesome company) that have no official “game” to go with them – they’re just lovely models. Price isn’t an issue for me – its that I feel I am being gouged and taken for an idiot. And when a couple of years ago, when I could buy 20 cadians in a box, it didn’t bother me. When they got repackaged, and the contents were halved and the price remain all but flat, I feel like I’m being gouged. See what I mean?
I can buy 4 steam punk warjacks for 49.99 they are terminator sized minis
( even 9 factions worth of the almost the exact same thing) I definitely do not see any large distinction (visually) or variation between the warmahordes players armies, everything seems like its 1/3 main armies with one or two models that are different. caster, warjacks, big warjack, some infantry... done.. sub monsters for steam robots for hordes and repeat...
YAWNNNNNNNN
60$ gets my 5 terminators... (even several factions of different space men!) not really a game breaking price difference... and while the factions may not play all that different, I certainly see the different aesthetics between chaos, SW, GK, ect terminators, not so with the warjacks
You don’t see the irony of that statement, do you?
Six warmachine factions, four hordes factions, and six other sub factions (pirates, dwarves, llaelese resistance, mafia, Warpigs and Gators) and can’t see a different despite huge visual and playstyle differences, but with regard to 40k, even though they play the same (you said it yourself..), and lots of them look the same (silver marines, red marines, blue marines…) and despite it all being bloody power armour, you’re trying to argue it’s all aesthetically different? You dismiss Warmachine’s component pieces so casually, whilst not knowing (nor wanting to know, it seems)their extensive differences (and there’s loads) but you remain silent on the fact that a huge amount of 40k's aesthetics is a variation on a single concept. its like Malibu Stacy- "now with a new hat".
Just as you are so appallingly dismissive of Warmachine,that same attitude be turned on its head and applied to 40k -it can just as easily be argued that game boils down to “power armour with different bling”.Just as that argument isnt really true or accurate, its the same for what you say about warmachine mate.
Why people get excited about sexless , monkish super humans who beat everything i'll never know. Marines just don't seem to have much going on on a psychological level , eldar are fighting the end of their race, Orks have conquered fear completely and manipulate the universe around them to fit in with their idea of how things work, chaos delve into the corruption that humans face, guards fight a hopeless war against the enemies of the imperium and marines, well marines fight and win vs all comers , proudly representing unhumanity , and er a few turn to chaos, boom boom.
People keep arguing cost of armies versus the cost of models, and how GW isn't overcosted when compared to PP. Of course it isn't: both are very expensive, if you look at models in a vacuum. And (almost) nobody plays only low point games for very long.
You can spend days trying to figure out the cost of a Warmahordes 50 point steamroller double list army (meaning you bring two different lists, and pick what to play after seeing the enemy lists, but no which one he picked) You could then try to compare that to the cost of a 40k tournament sized army. But that's not going to matter, because people are going to build the army that they have more fun with, no minding minor variances in cost.
I know on the secondary market, you can get decent sized forces of either game for roughly the same price, so I think its safe to say that any difference in effective playing cost is minor.
What isn't minor is the experience difference. A player might chose 40k due to its background, a robust player base, and a forgiving if unbalanced rules set. A player might chose WM/H due to it's tight ruleset, balanced armies, and the strong competitive scene.
In other words, it doesn't matter if surfing is a little cheaper then skiing when you live in the Rocky Mountains.
For me? The local 40k scne dried up, the rules are completely unbalanced, and I dont' find the random aspects of 6th edition remotely charming. PP models could go up 25%, while GW could drop 25%, and PP would still be a better value for me. For plenty of others, it'll be the opposite.
This thread is about what would need to change for those who no longer are into GW games, for them to get back into it. For some people the answer is "they can't do much, I've already found this replacement I think is great."
Given GW's concentration on recruiting new players vs retaining vets, there's simply no reason to expect GW to ever try to get back lost market share in the form of those of us who have moved on to greener pastures. How are they supposed to figure out how to do that when they can't even figure out how to keep the customers they already have?
frozenwastes wrote: This thread is about what would need to change for those who no longer are into GW games, for them to get back into it. For some people the answer is "they can't do much, I've already found this replacement I think is great."
Given GW's concentration on recruiting new players vs retaining vets, there's simply no reason to expect GW to ever try to get back lost market share in the form of those of us who have moved on to greener pastures. How are they supposed to figure out how to do that when they can't even figure out how to keep the customers they already have?
The shame is that they could do it, they just can't find their ass with two hands and a map.
They'd need to do two things, I think, to rekindle 40k in FLGS's across the land: write tight, balanced, and fun rules; and invest money back into the community with Outriders, prize support, tournament scenarios, and global campaigns.
Have an outrider in every store running events (like pressgangers), and write rules that are fun and allow people to play whatever kind of army they want without being stomped, and people will come back, prices be damned.
Get some of the friends I made playing 40k and Fantasy back
into the game.
And I know that I could do that, if 40k had better balance, less fiddly rules (hey GW, more dice rolls does not mean better rules), and was supported in any way. I have three good friends with armies on the shelf of our clubhouse that never come out, plus my own.
But we play WM/H now, which is a good game, and we have other things we want to try before trying to fix 40k...
Get some of the friends I made playing 40k and Fantasy back
into the game.
And I know that I could do that, if 40k had better balance, less fiddly rules (hey GW, more dice rolls does not mean better rules), and was supported in any way. I have three good friends with armies on the shelf of our clubhouse that never come out, plus my own.
But we play WM/H now, which is a good game, and we have other things we want to try before trying to fix 40k...
Thing is, my friends all went their own ways , for the most part. I'm the only
one playing Warmachine Hordes, so I made new friends.
They've split into FOW, historicals, and boardgames.
What would it take to get me to consider coming back? Affordable soft cover army books.
The new edition came out for each of WHFB and 40k with the same sort of "You can just ignore the broken edges" rules support, so I stopped keeping up on buying army books. I'm now currently at least $300 behind on the latest books.
Why do I feel the need to own all of the books? Because that's what it takes to be aware of the various rules problems and important units.
darkcloak wrote: reading through a lot of these comments and the amount of people who are so apathetic towards pricing is distressing!
I can't believe these people are fine with paying so much for their toys! I mean yeah sure GW makes some super nice plastic kits, but damn! $15 for a Captain? When I can make that same dude out of a simple Space Marine?
You're making an objective argument for a subjective decision, you think $15 is too much, I agree, others will not. You're also mistaking apathy for pragmatism. For instance, I acknowledge that GW is somewhat backed into a corner pricing wise because of it's overheads, that's their problem, and I choose to spend my money elsewhere most of the time, as, apparently, are an increasing number of others. There's no point in getting het up about it, just decide what's best for you and go with it.
A guy I know is saving up for a FW Titan, I think he's absolutely stupid for doing so. First, that's well over $600! Insanity! Secondly, I have the plans to build one, all I need is the motivation, lol!
How long will that take you? How much do you value your time? How much spare time does the guy buying one have? How strong are his scratch building skills? Again, whether a model is "worth it" or not is a personal decision based on multiple criteria.
It's this kind of total lack of fiscal responsibility that allows companies to constantly hike their prices up. And for what? Just to keep the profit line increasing? Because that's exactly what it is, GW isn't in danger of dying, it's in danger of losing potential profit! It's absolutely disgusting, those guys should thank their lucky stars they have such cool careers and be happy to provide a stable economic platform for their product to thrive in and not be chasing the greedy slime sucking all mighty profit margin!
The very idea that consumers are so willing to throw their money straight into the pocket books of tycoons is appalling and just, goddangit give your head a shake! Who cares if you can afford it? Surely if you can afford to spend over $100 on an incomplete starter set surely you can donate to some local charity too then! I work my butt off so that I can have a home to live in, food for my family and keep my standard of living, when and if I have the money for such lavish expenses as tabletop wargaming I have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products. Apparently some of us as so carefree with our cash that we don't mind lining the pockets of complete strangers however.
This is how the rich become opulent and the poor become disgruntled. Mark my words gentlemen, blood will run in the streets... goopy forgeworld resin blood.
Welcome to capitalism, it's not perfect, but it's the best we've got. The fact that you state " have to really ask myself if I want to keep buying GW products" implies you still are, at least for now, which makes your whole statement a tad hypocritical.
Perhaps that could seem a tad hipocritical, but really it's not. I just got started into this whole tabletop wargaming thing, and for the most part I quite enjoy it, I really only cruise around on dakka and moan and complain when I'm bored or itching for a game but have no opponents. The only two things I have ever bought from GW was my CSM Battleforce, and half of a DV set, all the rest of my models are second hand, and some are even free! I would so love to be able to afford to have GW ship my toys directly to my door, I really would. It makes me jealous when the rich kids get their new toys before I do! I'm 28 btw... The point is though, the toys ought to be cheaper. Made more accessible if you like or whatever, but it is within GWs power to do, they could knock off 12% from every kit and still be laughing!
I guess I was just raised by baby boomers or whatever, I'm cheap, and damnably so. I don't begrudge others their success or whatever it is that allows them to drop $600 on something as luxurious as a wargaming model, but I do seriously question their judgement. $600 is a small car or a rent check and heck if you saved that much again well... you can see where that goes right? Three Titans later and you could have actually done something significant with that money. As for the time it may take to build a Titan? Well sure you might actually be able to save the money faster, all things considered, but once that sucker is done... man, there will be no other Titan in your eyes ever again and anyone who sees it and knows you built it will be impressed. Properly done I should think a tabletop army would be a thing to give to a son or daughter, or grandchild even. Imagine the look on your kids face when you hand them the keys to the Warhound, after they watched you build it and play with it for half their life...
Anyways...
I just think that it's quite a statement about human nature that people will spend so much money in the pursuit of happiness and others will take advantage of that, all the while never batting an eye. Perhaps my above post was a little hot and for that I apologize, but the sentiment nonetheless remains. People should be less willing to compromise, especially with their money.
Coldhatred wrote: Honestly? Nothing will get me back into GW products. I'm enjoying giving my hard earned money to all the companies that actually work for my money. Plus, I'd have to go back to a narrow product selection because there is no way I'd be able to afford more than GW stuff, so I'd be dropping Historicals, Warmachine/Hordes, KoW, Dreadball, X-Wing, Freeblades, and Dropzone Commander. Mmmmm, no thanks.
I've made a few comments in this thread already about:
Reducing Game Size
Improved Turn Sequence
Make Games
Cult Marketing Approach
etc.
However, I think the true answer is that I will never be going back.
I'm knid of happy for GW's ineptitude. For too long I was looking for them (and then other companies like Warlord, Battleground, etc) to provide the things I needed for a game. However, faced with the removal or lack of support of a number of games that I started and liked, but were lost I was forced to learn how to do things for myself.
Now I don't have to sit around and wait for a company to make me rules I like. I just make them myself. I don;t have to wait for certain models to be made. I can find a base model and convert up what I need for myself. I don't need a fancy magazine full of ideas on scenarios and campaigns. I can find out what I need through researchign history and othe rproducts and coming up with my own.
Thank you GW for not letting me eat yoru fish all day. Instead, you forced me to go out and learn how to fish for myself.
I think the newest Tyranid box set might be able to do it, honestly. I've always liked the look of bugs, and since I can get that box at 20-25% off any time I want, it's gone from a very good deal to a STUPIDLY good deal. A buck a piece per bug, plus about $25 for a Carnifex after discount? Yes, please.
I don't have a dog in the Tyranid fight, don't collect them, have no plans to, but the only issue I'd have with it, and it is minor, is a Hive Tyrant or Tervigon would have made a better choice over the Fex. Now I know OOE is an HQ choice, but either one of those would have made the box a genuinely viable starting point for a Nid army that could be very easily expanded.
Look, I gotta be honest. I love GW. But the truth is it has gotten way too expensive to stay in. I have tons of models. I don't mind springing for paint or a box of new models once in a while - even though they are expensive.
Recently a friend gave me an entire Nid army as a gift. It was extremely generous. But now, with the new edition out, the rules cost $50 for my Ork Army and $50 for the nid army - that's $100 *just* to keep playing with what I already have. And that doesn't include the cost of the rulebook. The truth is I don't play every week or even every month anymore. As a result, I just can't see shelling out for something I'll use only once in a while.
It is a struggle to stay in the game when I have to drop that much cash *just* to play what I already have.
The only way, really, to keep playing is to use my *old* dexes under the new edition. Thankfully, I think the Guyz I game with will be grudgingly OK with that.
It would be nice if they offered a soft-cover like they used to for a decent price ($20). The hard cover *looks* good, but everyone's gonna be throwing them away in 3 or 4 years when the next edition comes out anyway, so it isn't like it is going to be a keepsake or anything. I'm on my 3rd Ork Codex now and one thinks about these things when one's been in the game for a while.
Is the game worth it? If you play it often enough I suppose it is. But one does have to ask whether there's a better way to invest those gaming dollars.
Solorg wrote: Look, I gotta be honest. I love GW. But the truth is it has gotten way too expensive to stay in. I have tons of models. I don't mind springing for paint or a box of new models once in a while - even though they are expensive.
Recently a friend gave me an entire Nid army as a gift. It was extremely generous. But now, with the new edition out, the rules cost $50 for my Ork Army and $50 for the nid army - that's $100 *just* to keep playing with what I already have. And that doesn't include the cost of the rulebook. The truth is I don't play every week or even every month anymore. As a result, I just can't see shelling out for something I'll use only once in a while.
It is a struggle to stay in the game when I have to drop that much cash *just* to play what I already have.
The only way, really, to keep playing is to use my *old* dexes under the new edition. Thankfully, I think the Guyz I game with will be grudgingly OK with that.
It would be nice if they offered a soft-cover like they used to for a decent price ($20). The hard cover *looks* good, but everyone's gonna be throwing them away in 3 or 4 years when the next edition comes out anyway, so it isn't like it is going to be a keepsake or anything. I'm on my 3rd Ork Codex now and one thinks about these things when one's been in the game for a while.
Is the game worth it? If you play it often enough I suppose it is. But one does have to ask whether there's a better way to invest those gaming dollars.
Play at home. I realize that isn't an option for everyone, but for those of us who can, it really frees you up to enjoy the game more. We use 5th Ed, have house rules for what we feel is broken in the BRB and dexes, and don't have to worry about "keeping it kosher as per GW" because we're in their house. I realize 5th isn't the greatest rule set, but it's what we're used to, and we've tweaked it to make it more playable for us. I agree it's ridiculous to have to shell out money constantly to keep up with rule sets and dexes. A good set of rules never needs to be changed.
easysauce wrote: yup and when GW started, you only needed a few models to start...
over time, a company HAS to expand that or die... they cannot sell you 15 models, and live off that profit for decade after decade...
and you have a very bad tone...
"agree with me that GW is over priced, even though this other game costs more per model it all works out because they will NEVER make us have to buy more models"
now the argument has gone from "gw minis cost more" which is false,
to "well you HAVE to buy more GW minis" which is also, false,
you can play at any pts level you want, from kill team, to regular, to apoc.
unlike WMH which forces you to start at 15 pts, has no support for "normal" sized armies, and even less support for apoc sized games...
if you want to play 40k then play it, reduce you pts size if you cannot afford a 1850pts army.. its literally that simple... no one is forcing you to play larger games.
Its complete BS to say that a game like warmahordes with MORE expensive models, costs less, then a game with less expensive models, because you HAVE to buy more of the less expensive models, when in fact, you certainly do NOT have to buy more of the less expensive models at all.
I personaly have never writen that it had anything to do with the price of the models. Table-top games are cheap if you compare them to other "hobbys" that are out there. Price is not the reason why I do not play GW games.
10 Reasons I despise and hate GW games in the year 2014. And I apologies for my "tone" as you put it, But Price has Zero to do with why I personaly do not play GW games... These 10 things come much closer to describing why;
1. Outdated, rules, lets face it rolling more then 50 dice for one unit is not Modern or brilliant game design, its bloated and redundant to achive said goal, "knowing if unit 1 hits and kills unti 2". To many special rules that do not relate to one another, lack of rules clarifications, and open to free interpetations. Breaking GW rules is not hard, and even someone who is not activly PGn the rules can do it. WEAK game design do not deserve praise or admiration. It deserves ridicule and loathing, especially when the company has had over 3 decades to fix them. In my mind this tells me that GW must bee totaly incompeten, but that brings us too my next point.
2 GWs emplyees are clearly not incompetent. But why are they making these crapy rules, Simple reason they want to trick or force me as a customer to buy more of their products.. And I do not like too be forced into anything.. So F...you GW.. I see through your bs
3. All the suport for the hobby has gone by by over the years, back in the day they posted articles about how to make Terrain, how to make vechicles out of shampoo bottles. And they liked there own hobby. Today its only about one thing Pushing as many minatures(drugs) out the door as possible and give nothing back. They are like F..ing drug dealers, care nothing about the end client, they only want to sell more and more and at the highest price possible.
4. THE ARMIES ARE TOO LARGE, I dont have time to sit through a 6 hour apoc game, little kidds do not have the attention span to sit through a 6 hour game. Nobody in his right mind wants to play 2000-5000-10000 point games, that take the better part of one day to get through And. GWs rules make the whole experince utterly horrible. it stops being a fun game and becomes a chore you have to get through.
5. General Company polices Drive people away, if I go into one of their stores to get something, they try to push other things on me that I do not want. If I go into buy a box of skaven, It might not be that smart to try and push a box of Gray Knights on me also.. Im clearly not looking for that now Am I?. This hyper agressive behavior comes from the top, they are forcing their employees to act like this. And it is bad pure and simple..
6. Going after independents with lawsuits, who the F do they think they are??? the next comming of christ? I like both Beast of War and Miniwargame for example, and when GW screw them over, it hits a nervw in me pure and simple. GW do not Interact with the community, they do nothing for us and then they have the nerve to go after the people who do. Unacceptable pure and simple...
7. High prices for miniatures that are clearly very old both in concept and design, same old space marines we have seen for decades, same chaos same same and more of the same... It is kinda boring.. It has gotten old over the years. They are unable or rather unvilling to push the universe forward. We are caught in a never ending loop.. Nothing ever changes. It is the universe of "when time stood still", Illogical and boring
8. GW games cant be played competativly without alot of rules errata etc, Bear and pretzels games are boring, the true Table-top players across the world want Tournament suport and balanced games. If you cant do that stop making the game...
9. No offical forums, no offical interaction with the community, cant take constructive feedback of any sort. Ignorance is bliss at GWHQ. luckly we can also ignore them back and stop buying their crappy products.
10. Last thing and the one thing I really hate the most about GW, are the Stupid Fanboys/White Knights who keep defending their F... slow games. These people are beyoned contempt in my book, They just help alienate people even more, with their stupid arguments and lies. It is like they have the same mindset as the company they love buying miniatures from. And they are also a good reason why anyone of a sane mind should stay away from GW games..
Let the Galaxy burn and down with the False Miniature Company Games workshop!!!!
Golgo13, think I probably agree with most of that.. although I wouldn't put it quite as vehemently! (I did laugh when reading some of your comments, just the way they were written! I ).
I think it's an interesting point; if GW had official forums and FB page with two-way communications, official tournaments, make GD more than just a big queue to buy something - would you be more likely to return to one of their games? Or similarly, if they had a better 'attitude' towards the customers; of rather than this aloof, negative and low regard of their own customers which treats them like someone buying a burger at a drive-through, actually stopped and said "hang on a minute guys.. you're important to us, your support raised us to this point, what can we do better?"
Perhaps that final point is the most important one - I think if they started to care about their customers again (underlined this word, as it was the case at one time) beyond just maximum profit margin, I think most if not all of the other problems that people have with GW would start to disappear. The culture at the centre of the company is the well-spring from which all other factors flow.
I'm not "mad" at games workshop really. I was for a while when I was a hardcore player back before the 4th edition Ork codex was released, when I felt my army was neglected by not having half it's model line and being horribly outdated compared to all the other armies.
I've since mellowed considerably, and realised it's not worth my time getting angry at the corp unless it does something particularly nasty.
But they simply do not provide enough value for my money. I've realised through these discussions that I don't just mean value as in, low priced miniatures. I mean that their game isn't good enough and continues to get worse. If 40K was a game I wanted to play I would be playing it regularly, but the game sucks right now. There is little fun to be had in rules that offer so little in the way of balance, and I find the casual gaming mafia are growing more noxious as time passes.
They have to compete with the rest of the industry now, which includes a lot of cheaper miniatures that are at least in the same ball park quality wise, sometimes with better rules too (eg. Mantic and the slew of nice historical, sci fi and fantasy plastics coming out), and miniatures at the same price point which offer a much better play/customer experience (eg. Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux).
Given their position- high market share, high level of previous investment in their IP and rules, it's surprising that they have lost me. But I really doubt they have the creative talent or culture required to get me back, as a player. I might buy their miniatures if I can find a use for them in other games, though.
If they started selling separate bits and sprues I'd buy some. I love their Fantasy minis and could use a few for some skirmish warbands. I'm not gonna buy a box of 16 models just to get two or three though. If they sold sprues however I'd buy a good chunk. Now Reaper Miniatures will be getting that money.
But again, the thing that'd make me properly buy into their games would be if they started making Epic again, and if they made it good. That's something I'd be genuinely interested in collecting on large scale, if it was supported and produced. Now Spartan Games or Hawk Wargames will be getting that money.
I'm probably past the point where any gaming company will convince me to invest in a huge collection of miniatures.
I will happily go for small scale skirmish games though and I'm still buying lots of GW bits and pieces from ebay for Mordheim.
I've recently spent about £80 on X-Wing which is a great game that actually plays very well with 4 to 6 ships per side.
If GW wanted my custom in the traditional sense, it would be through a well crafted and well supported skirmish game - no more than 20 minis per side. Imagine a game like Necromunda/Blood Bowl/Mordheim with customisable box sets for each faction. Then they would have my attention.
For me it's simply that playing the game is no longer fun. The rules are too cumbersome and full of fiddly details I have to keep track of, like having to make sure my haemonculus or hekatrix can't be sniped out of the first rank from any likely direction of incoming fire, et cetera.
I still have my 40k figs and I play a game or two a year. However, in order for me to buy more than a rulebook and codex each edition they'd have to do the above. At this time I haven't bought a new GW figure in years and don't play to start anytime soon.
Ultra Grey wrote: Play at home. I realize that isn't an option for everyone, but for those of us who can, it really frees you up to enjoy the game more. We use 5th Ed, have house rules for what we feel is broken in the BRB and dexes, and don't have to worry about "keeping it kosher as per GW" because we're in their house. I realize 5th isn't the greatest rule set, but it's what we're used to, and we've tweaked it to make it more playable for us. I agree it's ridiculous to have to shell out money constantly to keep up with rule sets and dexes. A good set of rules never needs to be changed.
This is a good idea. The only trick is that everyone in your gaming group has to agree. Actually, we always say we'll do this - stay with an older edition - but sooner or later, someone in the group shows up one day with the latest rulebook - and then it is just a matter of time. : Z
Still, your point is an excellent one. It is perfectly possible to keep playing with the older rules. This way I could keep on using my 5th Ed rulebook, Dexes, Apoc book, Apoc Reloaded, and so on and so on. Would be nice not to have to move on. Just to enjoy the old investment for a little longer.
This is a good idea. The only trick is that everyone in your gaming group has to agree. Actually, we always say we'll do this - stay with an older edition - but sooner or later, someone in the group shows up one day with the latest rulebook - and then it is just a matter of time. : Z
Still, your point is an excellent one. It is perfectly possible to keep playing with the older rules. This way I could keep on using my 5th Ed rulebook, Dexes, Apoc book, Apoc Reloaded, and so on and so on. Would be nice not to have to move on. Just to enjoy the old investment for a little longer.
My gaming group is pretty small, and like me and my kid (and a lot of other people), fairly disgruntled with GW. At this point, for me to be able to go to a GW and play, I would have to buy a new Apoc book, and a new SM dex, so, what, ~$125-$150 for the "privilege" of playing in their house? I think I'll pass.
loki old fart wrote: The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.
Agreed. it's like the sculptors had a contest to see who could jam more crap onto a space marine.
to some people that looks awesome.. to me it looks messy and cluttered.
and when it comes to painting i wouldn't want to touch that box with a 10 foot pole.
loki old fart wrote: The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.
Agreed. it's like the sculptors had a contest to see who could jam more crap onto a space marine.
to some people that looks awesome.. to me it looks messy and cluttered.
and when it comes to painting i wouldn't want to touch that box with a 10 foot pole.
And models with that level of fiddly detail have absolutely no place being in a starter product.
loki old fart wrote: The quality of the last starter box was so good I kept the rule book. and cultists. And gave the rest to my grand kids to play with,
probably all broke now. But who cares they were rubbish anyway.
Agreed. it's like the sculptors had a contest to see who could jam more crap onto a space marine.
to some people that looks awesome.. to me it looks messy and cluttered.
and when it comes to painting i wouldn't want to touch that box with a 10 foot pole.
And models with that level of fiddly detail have absolutely no place being in a starter product.
The assault on black reach was better. The models were more pose able (the arms move thru greater arcs), heads and arms were interchangeable For a new player they were easier to paint.
at this point nothing would get me back into GW products. the core rules really started to irk me, compounded by finecast, yearly price hikes and the destruction of the bitz service, outriders and oh yeah, the whole SG line.
For me personally the almost tipping point was when the Farsight supplement came out. I started playing Tau when there were first released. I have always wanted to play a legal army filled with nothing but battlesuits and now I can. However due to dropping GW for Infinity a couple of years ago and having picked up X-Wing, and Maliflaux I do not have the room or the money for such a large and expensive army.
This especially as I would go forge world and get the Hazard suits for my fast attack. Plus I like the look of the battlesuits and the new broadsides so third party would not work for me.
So for me to get in, I would need someone to buy me a lot of the army or at least see some price reductions so I could fit it in with my meager budget.
Basically they'd have to get my friends back in. I love sci-fi, but everybody I know is playing WMH or MTG now. Much of the bad blood and lawsuits against third parties, plus massive codex price increases have driven them off.
Price reductions and a more stable game system would help. But suing book writers and parts makers poisoned the well quite a bit too.
I cant understand why people who have left the game for financial reasons dont simply buy recasts that are readily available for peanuts from China.
Without wanting to start the old tired debate, if you've left the game because of prices you aren't taking money from GW by buying recasts, as that money wouldn't be spent on legit models otherwise.
As for the moral side of that argument...... well, morality hasn't really played a defining role in GW's treatment of it's customer base now has it
bonz wrote: I cant understand why people who have left the game for financial reasons dont simply buy recasts that are readily available for peanuts from China.
Without wanting to start the old tired debate, if you've left the game because of prices you aren't taking money from GW by buying recasts, as that money wouldn't be spent on legit models otherwise.
Except people are spending it on legit models; Privateer Press, Corvus Belli,etc., etc. It's not that people can't affordGW, in many cases, though certainly there's some of that; it's that a lot of the people who switch don't think GW is worth the money.
As for the moral side of that argument...... well, morality hasn't really played a defining role in GW's treatment of it's customer base now has it
bonz wrote: I cant understand why people who have left the game for financial reasons dont simply buy recasts that are readily available for peanuts from China.
Without wanting to start the old tired debate, if you've left the game because of prices you aren't taking money from GW by buying recasts, as that money wouldn't be spent on legit models otherwise.
As for the moral side of that argument...... well, morality hasn't really played a defining role in GW's treatment of it's customer base now has it
I don't know about everyone else but I can safely say that I did not leave purely for money reasons, in fact I am now spending more on Hobby stuff than I ever did with GW. It just adds to the pile of crap, if GW lowered the price, or if my next door neighbor started making recasts and selling them for a few cents on the dollar, the models are still sub par for purely painting purposes and the game is crap.
For 40k, fixing the rules. Their rules are horribly written. I would never have thought a "beer & pretzels" game would require so much digging through the rulebooks to figure out how the heck you're meant to play out certain things. The price is also an issue as I'm probably not going to pay $83 or whatever laughable price for each bad codex I need, and that's not even mentioning the models.
And the people saying Warmachine models are overpriced too probably aren't wrong. It's not a defense of GW, though, and there are a variety of mitigating factors that the thread has seen enough of already without me going into them.
If they want to get me back, they will need to rewrite 6th Edition. I'm not talking about 6th Ed. but with clarifications, I mean rewrite it. Up until 6th, every edition seemed to be streamlining the game, making it easier to teach, to learn and to play. Then, 6th happened and it was like they said, "If it sounds cool, you can do it." That is a serious turnoff to someone like me, who needs rules to be well-structured and well written so I can expect that both me and my opponent will have as few rules discussions/debates as possible and we can enjoy the game. If you're stumbling over rules because they're ambiguous or poorly worded, it takes away from the whole experience, from army building to actually playing the game. Of course, this is my opinion - there may be plenty others that love this Edition, as I expect there are.
Secondly, they need to treat me like I am important to them. I actually don't mind a premium model costing a premium price - and I know that idea is not popular - but what I do mind is being treated like they are doing me a favor by allowing me to purchase their products. They need to be more friendly to everyone in their retail scope, starting with independent retailers and customers. Take Finecast as an example. It was a gak product. It was a gak product that they increased prices on. So, they took away the metal product (which was just fine), gave me an inferior product and then charged me more for it. Then, when the product was sub-par, they treat us like idiots and try to sell us a fixit-kit. If they had instead admitted that their product was sub-par and that they were working on the situation, that would have gained them a lot of leeway. Their lack of communication to the public is the bane of their existence. Their fear of losing sales is actually causing them to lose sales (and customers).
To channel Princess Leia:
"The more you tighten your grip, GW, the more customers will slip through your fingers."
Two words really sum up my 
