Well what do you want from Blood Angels in 6th Edition?

Well I ma starting this mostly because of my Space Wolf thread of a Similar thread and I want to head off the How to fix the Blood Angels discussion that is trying to start up.
Now I am a Space Wolf Player mostly, but I do play Blood Angels here and there. This is what I would like to see.

>All of the units get brought in line with Codex Space Marines.
>Giving Missile Launchers Flakk Missiles
>Assault Squads getting the option taking a Special Melee Weapon or Special Ranged Weapons per 5 Models.

That is about it right now, now I want to hear what you think.

An almost unilateral points drop.

Something to give their AS a small edge in CC with other MEQ

Some sort of new shiny, but then that's a given, so let's go for a new shiny that is worth taking, but not so good as to have people throwing me dirty looks when I do.

I would even be ok with Tactical Squads getting a CCW.

As I have stated before, I don't even know what would be a) fair and b) balanced in a game of Taudar. Sure, I could wish for +1 init again, but Taudar don't care.

It's bad, but I want two models DROPPED from BA. Sanguinary priests and the Sanguinor. Priests are a tax on the army and the Sanguinor is just stupid.

Tacs won't get CC weapons because BA foolishly follow codex Astartes. They'll be as useless as ever.

I would sugest ignoring the Taudar for this. This should be about what you want to make this a fair ballance Codex, not one to beat Taudar.

Balanced against what, then, if not Taudar? Necrons? C:SM? Sisters?

Dropping the priest tax and getting an HQ choice in place of Sanguinor that does something would be a good start. I can better articulate what needs to go than what needs to stay.

And make the DC usable. Maybe give them..........counterattack! And not have 15 pt jump packs.

I would like to see an overall points drop.

I would like new models for dante, and mephiston, as I hate the old ones ( just a personal thing )

And something to either protect or get arriving assault troops into combat, without being butchered first.

Martel732 wrote:
Balanced against what, then, if not Taudar? Necrons? C:SM? Sisters?

Your choices are to honest to either have one balanced against every other Codex or something really overpowered.
And yes I agree the Taudar is very OP, Tau or Eldar by them selves are very Powerful.

Dropping the priest tax and getting an HQ choice in place of Sanguinor that does something would be a good start. I can better articulate what needs to go than what needs to stay.

Priest Tax? They are Requred like 1 HQ and 2 Troop Choices?

And make the DC usable. Maybe give them..........counterattack! And not have 15 pt jump packs.

I was thinking something like Rending myself.
And of course a points drop.

No, not rending. Not yet another unit that makes armor pointless. If you don't fix the spoiling assault problem with DC, you don't fix them. Oh, and get them out of the troop slot. They don't belong there b/c they don't score. Might as well be honest about them.

I call it the priest tax if you want to get access to FNP and FC. If you aren't using FNP for your infantry lists, why play BA at all? I'd like for BA to have it built in like IH.

I don't see them dropping a unit because it's "bad" because they reintroduced an old character who hadn't been in the game since 3rd Ed for Dark Angels who is just an abysmally awful HQ. Sometimes they like leaving in bad, but fluffy HQs. And it's a cool model, so whatever.

Besides all the stuff you guys have mentioned (I agree with all of it), I hope they get some sort of flyer that's Blood Angels only, and it's total beastmode. They are supposed to be the chapter that's all about air superiority and high-flying shenanigans so I'd like to see that reflected in the table-top now that Storm Ravens are a ubiquitous Space Marine unit.

Less wargear with Blood in it.

Ability for an elite assault based unit that can assault flyers.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I don't see them dropping a unit because it's "bad" because they reintroduced an old character who hadn't been in the game since 3rd Ed for Dark Angels who is just an abysmally awful HQ. Sometimes they like leaving in bad, but fluffy HQs. And it's a cool model, so whatever.

Besides all the stuff you guys have mentioned (I agree with all of it), I hope they get some sort of flyer that's Blood Angels only, and it's total beastmode. They are supposed to be the chapter that's all about air superiority and high-flying shenanigans so I'd like to see that reflected in the table-top now that Storm Ravens are a ubiquitous Space Marine unit.

If it's like the 5th ed Stormraven, I'll pass.

Well so far ever Codex has changed the Death Company and what they are, so I am expecting another change.
Take them out of FOC in some way:
>One per HQ
>One per Priest

I am going just throw some things out there:
>Make them Cheaper
>Leave the Black Rage alone
>Relentless
>Feel No Pain
All of there I feel would be appropriate as other posiblities:
>Counter Attack?
>Crusader?
>Flesh Bane on the Assault?
>Hammer of Wrath even without Jump Packs?
>Hatred?
>Replace Rage with Rampage?
>Shred?
>Zealot?

How about giving Death Company Jump Packs standard? Considering Vanguard Veterans aren't that good at 22 PPM, Death Company with Jump Packs at 20 PPM might actually achieve something.

This thread just can not evade the Taudar. If you make an assault element capable of withstanding their firepower, it's not fair against other lists. If you can't withstand their firepower, you aren't an effective assault element if you need to assault them.

I suspect BA will be the latter.

If you absolutely don't want to discuss Taudar, just insert "grav cents". Or "flying croissant spam". Or "GK shenanigans".

My issue with making this about TauDar is that They are the problem, not the Blood Angels and for that fact any MEQ.
The only fixes would make the Blood Angles the next TauDar army.

Invulnerable Saves: Dark Angels tan take them like no tomorrow and it has not saved them.
Psychic Powers: I have not heard of Space Wolves or Grey Knights Shutting them down.
Feel No Pain: Is not working for Blood Angels so that is not the answer.

So I am not saying don’t bring them up, just don’t make them the focus for everything.

Let's narrow it down, then. How to make BA competitive against say, SW and Necrons. These two lists provide very different problems to overcome.

Martel732 wrote:
Let's narrow it down, then. How to make BA competitive against say, SW and Necrons. These two lists provide very different problems to overcome.

Exactly what I am try to get to.

The other thing I has found is to focus on one or two units at a time, Death Company came up and some sugestions were made. Let's go from there.

What I want to see BA get: a chapter tactics entry and special character or two in C:SM, and no more BA codex. Now you've instantly made BA as competitive as any other marine army, and removed yet another redundant codex from the game.

A bit late for that. GW passed on the chance so they can sell a boat load more $60 books.

Martel732 wrote:
A bit late for that. GW passed on the chance so they can sell a boat load more $60 books.

Well yeah, but this is a thread about what we want to see, not what we expect GW to do.

I'm still having quantifying want I even want. Line between "no better than BA currently are" and "TFG wishlight" seems very thin with the current meta.

As above, I want them and all other marine variant codices rolled into the C:SM book so that all marine armies are updated at once. Rules wise... I don't play Blood Angels but here are some changes I think need to happen.

They need to be cheaper, Tac squads need some sort of buff, Jump infantry need to be able to assault after deep striking/coming from reserves, their assault units need to have better FNP or higher toughness and they need better choppy options.

As I posted here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/579432.page

We can make a few logical conclusion about the new BA codex.

FIrst of all. We can expect them to get a point cost reduction. (( Why? Because it was done in both the DA and C:SM codex))
Second: They will probably get Flak missiles (( again because both DA and C:SM got it))
Third: They probably will gain access to the Hunter/Stalker

Anything else I could say would be pure guesses on my part.

 Peregrine wrote:
What I want to see BA get: a chapter tactics entry and special character or two in C:SM, and no more BA codex. Now you've instantly made BA as competitive as any other marine army, and removed yet another redundant codex from the game.

Came here to say this, but I was beaten to the punch.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
What I want to see BA get: a chapter tactics entry and special character or two in C:SM, and no more BA codex. Now you've instantly made BA as competitive as any other marine army, and removed yet another redundant codex from the game.

Came here to say this, but I was beaten to the punch.

well I am in the opposite Camp. I think Every Army Faction should get their own Codex.

Unless 6.5 ed makes some pretty sweeping changes to make assault more viable, Blood Angels are kind of screwed, no matter what changes we can realistically expect... y'know, unless they get some sort of combo that gives everyone 2+ rerollable FNP or something.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
What I want to see BA get: a chapter tactics entry and special character or two in C:SM, and no more BA codex. Now you've instantly made BA as competitive as any other marine army, and removed yet another redundant codex from the game.

Came here to say this, but I was beaten to the punch.

well I am in the opposite Camp. I think Every Army Faction should get their own Codex.

Codex Cadians
Codex Mordians
Codex Catachan
Codex Steel Legion
Codex Death Korps
Codex Tallarn
Codex Praetorian

Which is only scratching the surface for 'factions' in the IG.

Codex Every Individual Craftworld (over half a dozen)
Codex Evil Suns
Codex Goffs
Codex Bad Moons
Codex Death Skulls
Codex Snakebites
Codex Blood Axes

Codex Every single Tyranid Hivefleet (another half dozen?)

Codex Every first founding Legion
Codex every second founding legion

Is that what you meant by every faction? Because if BA count as a faction, then every single other marine chapter (of renown) should have their own codex, as well as the codices I list above.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
What I want to see BA get: a chapter tactics entry and special character or two in C:SM, and no more BA codex. Now you've instantly made BA as competitive as any other marine army, and removed yet another redundant codex from the game.

Came here to say this, but I was beaten to the punch.

well I am in the opposite Camp. I think Every Army Faction should get their own Codex.

Codex Cadians
Codex Mordians
Codex Catachan
Codex Steel Legion
Codex Death Korps
Codex Tallarn
Codex Praetorian

Which is only scratching the surface for 'factions' in the IG.

Codex Every Individual Craftworld (over half a dozen)
Codex Evil Suns
Codex Goffs
Codex Bad Moons
Codex Death Skulls
Codex Snakebites
Codex Blood Axes

Codex Every single Tyranid Hivefleet (another half dozen?)

Codex Every first founding Legion
Codex every second founding legion

Is that what you meant by every faction? Because if BA count as a faction, then every single other marine chapter (of renown) should have their own codex, as well as the codices I list above.

Yeup

 Anpu42 wrote:

Yeup

Well I'll at least applaud your consistency, but not your concept of game design.

That list above would far too crazy and over the top to ever function.

But that's why I support molding all the marine codices (that all play fundamentally the same anyways and share the overwhelming majority of identical units anyways) into one so that more time and effort are spent balancing the game than a dozen marine codices.

A deep srltriking super heavy carrying a land raider

Ralis wrote:


We can make a few logical conclusion about the new BA codex.
...
Third: They probably will gain access to the Hunter/Stalker

I doubt it. I doubt they'll get centurions either. Probably going to lose a lot of deep strike options as well, and certainly won't gain assault from deep strike.

I would like to see the removal of librarian dreadnoughts, the stripping back of special rules for all units. I guess I could see Death Company with Feel No Pain and Rage, but that's about all I think they should have.

What deep strike options are you talking about? Not that any of them are any good anyway...

 Blacksails wrote:

But that's why I support molding all the marine codices (that all play fundamentally the same anyways and share the overwhelming majority of identical units anyways) into one so that more time and effort are spent balancing the game than a dozen marine codices.

Yes, that totally worked well with Black Templars, they totally play the same now as they did before. Totally didn't lose anythign in the transition at all.

Martel732 wrote:
What deep strike options are you talking about? Not that any of them are any good anyway...

Last I saw they had Deepstriking LandRaiders. Or am I further out of date than I thought? They should go. And their special rules regarding Deep Strike. They can go too.

I would like an exception to the rule for going full reserve so I can play my DoA army the way I intended too. Either that or let me drop half of it on turn one like drop pods. I have a full jump pack army of mostly elite units that make up my Red Hunters collection based on the BA book. The ability to take an army with all jump packs sucks when you have to put half of them on the field in this very shooty edition. I would also like for them to keep some sort of attack from deep strike ability like the Vanguard had (still have in the BA book but not SM so it's probably gone for BA in the rewrite). More nipple armor too please.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

But that's why I support molding all the marine codices (that all play fundamentally the same anyways and share the overwhelming majority of identical units anyways) into one so that more time and effort are spent balancing the game than a dozen marine codices.

Yes, that totally worked well with Black Templars, they totally play the same now as they did before. Totally didn't lose anythign in the transition at all.

Are you also completely ignoring the over arching edition effects that altered how your army played anyways?

Besides, I still think the Templars should have never been a different codex anyways. Marine are marines. A loss of a small handful of weapon options and a shift of names is hardly a good reason from a gameplay perspective to give every single colour of marine their own codex. The balance issues you have can be fixed with a new edition, and a few tweaks in characters. Again, not a convincing argument against rolling all the marines together.

*Edit* I largely think it was fine. A few point tweaks, a special rule here or there, and they're fine. Not worth an entirely separate book.

 BladeWalker wrote:
I would like an exception to the rule for going full reserve so I can play my DoA army the way I intended too. Either that or let me drop half of it on turn one like drop pods. I have a full jump pack army of mostly elite units that make up my Red Hunters collection based on the BA book. The ability to take an army with all jump packs sucks when you have to put half of them on the field in this very shooty edition. I would also like for them to keep some sort of attack from deep strike ability like the Vanguard had (still have in the BA book but not SM so it's probably gone for BA in the rewrite). More nipple armor too please.

I like this one, though they will probably screw it up like they did the Deathwing.

model wise they dont need anything. the have a giant range available as it is.
could use updated tycho, dante and mephiston i guess.

the game overall is such a broken turd i wont bother commenting rules wise.

kb305 wrote:


the game overall is such a broken turd i wont bother commenting rules wise.

This made me chuckle. Pretty much how I feel when I browse the proposed rules section these days.

well this has been filled with constructive good ideas so far hasn't it? so far I've gathered get rid of the things that make BA's play as BA's.

Anyways lets start off with the basics

-Cheaper JPs , stop charging us an arm and a leg for a JP in an army that's supposed to be full of them.
-Also I do believe that BA should be better at CC than their vanilla counterparts, making them WS5 or 1 Initiative higher sure as heck isn't going to break them and it fits fluff wise, CC its what they train to do.
-BA are also in general very VERY dependent on getting the charge off , Especially things like DC with a Chaplain, so maybe think of giving some units counter attack to help make up for the fact that opponents can and will charge you first so you don't get to take advantage of any of your special rules.

 BlackArmour wrote:
well this has been filled with constructive good ideas so far hasn't it? so far I've gathered get rid of the things that make BA's play as BA's.

You not liking other people's wishes doesn't make them any less valid or constructive.

 BlackArmour wrote:
so far I've gathered get rid of the things that make BA's play as BA's.

Except that's not true at all. Look at the things that define BA, as opposed to all the random filler units that GW had to invent to justify giving them an entire codex. The core of the army is:

1) Assault squads as troops.

2) Fast vehicles.

3) Black rage.

So, put them in C:SM with the following chapter tactics:

Rapid Assault: The BA chapter is known for their fast, aggressive assault tactics. Assault squads drop into battle from Thunderhawk gunships, while their armored spearheads race forward to support them. An army with Chapter Tactics: BA may take assault squads as troops, and all Rhino-hull vehicles gain the Fast subtype (their special Predator turrets are just part of C:SM).

Red Thirst/Black Rage: The BA suffer from a crippling flaw: at any moment they could give in to their rage and be consumed by it, becoming little more than mindless killing machines. All BA models gain the Furious Charge USR and FNP (4+) against all close combat attacks. Before deployment roll A D6 for each unit with Chapter Tactics: BA in your army. On a 1 the unit also gains the Rage USR, but is never counted as a scoring or denial unit, and always counts as being destroyed at the end of the game in missions where this is relevant.

There, now you've captured the entire concept of the BA chapter without needing to spend an entire codex on them.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
well this has been filled with constructive good ideas so far hasn't it? so far I've gathered get rid of the things that make BA's play as BA's.

You not liking other people's wishes doesn't make them any less valid or constructive.

I didn't say that it did, however people need to accept that they aren't going into the SM codex, so there's no real point in saying it at this point.

Also I always find it funny that people in these sorts of threads come in and tell you want rules they want to disappear that are used against them, yet when it comes a go around for their codex they have a wish list a mile long. all while jumping into other threads about how the games unbalanced.

 BlackArmour wrote:
however people need to accept that they aren't going into the SM codex, so there's no real point in saying it at this point.

How is that different from any of the other wishlisting in this thread?

Also I always find it funny that people in these sorts of threads come in and tell you want rules they want to disappear that are used against them, yet when it comes a go around for their codex they have a wish list a mile long.

This is not true at all. I don't want these rules to disappear because they're used against me, I want them to disappear because they're redundant. BA are Ultramarines with a couple different USRs, not a completely different army that deserves an entire codex and release slot, especially when GW can't keep all of their armies up to date. And no, I don't have a mile-long wishlist from my own codex.

 BlackArmour wrote:


I didn't say that it did, however people need to accept that they aren't going into the SM codex, so there's no real point in saying it at this point.

Also I always find it funny that people in these sorts of threads come in and tell you want rules they want to disappear that are used against them, yet when it comes a go around for their codex they have a wish list a mile long. all while jumping into other threads about how the games unbalanced.

Pretty easy to paint with broad strokes, eh?

This is wishlisting thread, and I wish the BA codex was rolled in to C:SM. There's as much point in me saying that as anyone else here saying they want a 50pts reduction on unit X.

Anyways, Peregrine has already laid out just about everything BA need.

The only thing I can see on top of that is 2-3 SCs brought in, an upgrade for venerable dreads to be librarians, and everyone gains access to Apothecaries, bought like Sanguinary priests are. I could see Death company brought in as their special unit only they have access to.

Done.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
however people need to accept that they aren't going into the SM codex, so there's no real point in saying it at this point.

How is that different from any of the other wishlisting in this thread?

Oh snap!

That said, I'd rather not see existing Codices go away, but BA has a hard time truly justifying itself without some big contrived additions... especially in the age of Supplements (of course, the Supplement books suck compared to their 3rd ed equivalents, but that's besides the point).

Yes this is a Wish list thread, but the idea is for realistic wants and need not crazy stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:


How is that different from any of the other wishlisting in this thread?

because this wish isn't going to happen any time soon if ever, neither does it really have anything to do with what the thread was supposed to be about. The statement itself is redundant , in almost every BA thread someone has to come in and say I want the codex to go bye bye.

Could you roll them into codex SM? SURE and you could do the same for Grey Knights and SW if you really want but is it going to happen? no likely not

Everyone's entitled to their opinion but I just wish the thread was about what it was supposed to be about and not , lets get rid of them or get rid of a lot of their special rules.

I still want Sanguinor and the stupid priests gone. Unless they are going to do something better than hand out FNP 5+.

Assault from deep strike for all their units. My brother in law plays blood angels and i'd love to see their assault units become useful again.

 BlackArmour wrote:


because this wish isn't going to happen any time soon if ever, neither does it really have anything to do with what the thread was supposed to be about.

You mean like all the other things being wishlisted here? And how is it not what the thread is about?

You wish for cheaper assault squads.

I wish for the codex to be rolled in with another one.

I don't know how that isn't the purpose of the thread. If you only wanted to hear opinions that matched your own, maybe you should specify that.

Wanting to roll them in is fine. Except that C:SM was just published. GW was never going to pass up another codex to sell. Although they did with BT, admittedly.

Martel732 wrote:
Wanting to roll them in is fine. Except that C:SM was just published. GW was never going to pass up another codex to sell. Although they did with BT, admittedly.

Well, considering things change all the time, its perfectly within the realm of possibility to do something a la FW and release as some sort of supplement/dataslate. As per Peregrine's post, you could use that very CT, then add in 3 special characters, a librarian upgrade for dreadnoughts, and death company as their special troop choice.

Its not overly difficult to do (quite the opposite), and it wouldn't be the craziest thing GW has done.

Quite frankly, that's my wishlist. No crazier than wanting a ton of new options and vehicles and price cuts everywhere.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Wanting to roll them in is fine. Except that C:SM was just published. GW was never going to pass up another codex to sell. Although they did with BT, admittedly.

Well, considering things change all the time, its perfectly within the realm of possibility to do something a la FW and release as some sort of supplement/dataslate. As per Peregrine's post, you could use that very CT, then add in 3 special characters, a librarian upgrade for dreadnoughts, and death company as their special troop choice.

Its not overly difficult to do (quite the opposite), and it wouldn't be the craziest thing GW has done.

Quite frankly, that's my wishlist. No crazier than wanting a ton of new options and vehicles and price cuts everywhere.

No one said it wasn't possible , hell I admitted as much and like I said the same could be said for the other SM chapters with their own codex's and throwing out supplements on top to make them all fit nice and pretty into one book.

Considering that as pointed out C:SM was just released and BA are still their own codex it makes your wish far more crazier than people wanting points costs to come in line with other 6th ed. codexs , and options to give an assault army a snowballs chance in a shoot first ask questions later edition and there's been a new kit released in all the 6th codexs so speculation about what it might be for the BA isn't out of line either.

Considering how badly things CAN go, there are only a few things I want to see with the new BA codex:

---A points drop to put the BA units in line with the other Power Armor codecies.

---2 chapter relics that are actually usable.

---Dante should have Eternal Warrior.

I feel I've already asked for too much.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Considering how badly things CAN go, there are only a few things I want to see with the new BA codex:

---A points drop to put the BA units in line with the other Power Armor codecies.

---2 chapter relics that are actually usable.

---Dante should have Eternal Warrior.

I feel I've already asked for too much.

thanks! now Dantes going to go up in points and end up with a 3+ save

Dante is so bad. Makes me sad.

Realistically...leadership values on...I think it's Death Company? Yea, first time I play Tyranids against my friend's Blood Angels, I get introduced to a large force of anti-ld models. It did not end well when I realized a decent chunk of them had double thunder hammers...

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Realistically...leadership values on...I think it's Death Company? Yea, first time I play Tyranids against my friend's Blood Angels, I get introduced to a large force of anti-ld models. It did not end well when I realized a decent chunk of them had double thunder hammers...

Death Company are LD8 and Fearless. He probably threw a Reclusiarch (leadership 10) in there for extra buffs. Not sure how their leadership affects Tyranids.

I want BA to have useful assault troops again like back in 5th. I spent a crapload of money buying those DC/Assault box set and spent eons painting all those gems. I would hate if the only way to run BA is with lots of new units.

I liked BA for assault marines as troops (4+ FNP, +1 int, +1 Str with priest), can reserve whole army. To me its thematic and fun to play.

In terms of how strong BA should be, I would be happy if they have the same power level as dark angels, or tyranids, CSM. I feel these are the more balanced codex (except for that stupid hellturkey)

CSM and DA are pretty low on the totem pole, even nids are outshining them now...

 Wilytank wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Realistically...leadership values on...I think it's Death Company? Yea, first time I play Tyranids against my friend's Blood Angels, I get introduced to a large force of anti-ld models. It did not end well when I realized a decent chunk of them had double thunder hammers...

Death Company are LD8 and Fearless. He probably threw a Reclusiarch (leadership 10) in there for extra buffs. Not sure how their leadership affects Tyranids.

Odd. He showed me the codex, and none of his DC units had a leadership value on the stats line.

I want Moriar. That's it.

Point reductions would be nice too.

Points drops everywhere.

Dante eternal warrior

Mephiston significant points drop OR get an ap2 weapon.

Psychic table needs wings of sanguinius as Primaris power.

Shield of sanguinius needs to be much better, like a 4+ invuln, if it has to be rolled up randomly.

DC jump packs 3 ppm. DC are scoring if still with a chaplain.

Jump pack deep striking units get shrouded on the turn they come in.

Red thirst causes fearless, furious charge, and rampage.

Sanguinary priests give rampage in addition to old stuff.

Fast ba vehicles gain jink.

All BA vehicles can gain assault vehicle rule for 10p.

BA using jump packs to assault may use n equipped weapon's profile for their hammer of wrath hit. This attack ignores the unwieldy rule.

BA squads entirely with jump packs may elect to be counted as a drop pod for the purposes of drop pod assault.

Sanguinor goes up to 4 wounds and becomes a flying monstrous creature. The sarge buff is selectable instead of random.

Jump pack units that move using the pack can elect to have skyfire during the shooting phase.

wl traits: +1 bonus to red thirst, +1 unit that may come in first turn via drop pod/jump pack assault, Dante's no scatter deep strike, and some others.

Deep striking land raiders function as a mawloc from 6e tyranids

I want them to be worthy of a divergent codex. The thing that pissed me off about the last one is that it had every unit the SM codex did save two and then added a bunch. That is what pissed me off.

BA want to be an assault army, they have no need for Sternguard. They shouldn't have thunderfires, they shouldn't have access to a few other things. Lets actually let the BA codex be divergent this time.

I'd also like it so there is no more unlimited choices for transport vehicles. In the last codex you could field 17 landraiders if you really wanted to and had the points to do it. Thats just more BS. Also deep striking land raiders have got to go. There are enough "flying" transports available now its just not necessary.

I want Terminators with JPs, Int 10 Str 10 PFs w/built in Chainfists & TL Assault Cannons, Sweeping Advance, 2+ FNP, and ofcourse Fleet...

Well you know what....might be to late for this but GW could simply call them Supplement Codex: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc, etc...
Have the main C:SM as your Speece Marrrrines Bible and BAM good to go!

I agree with those who think BA should be a Codex Suppliment for SM. to be honest, DA probably could do that easily as well. SW would be harder, but not impossible to fit in that mold too.

However, assuming a stand alone version, I want to face a BA that is the best loyalist marine chapter on the charge. Cheap jump packs for the long range charge and Hammer of Wrath, lots of Furious Charge and Rage. I don't want this to cost too much given how weaker assault has gotten lately so being the best at it isn't a huge bonus. Black Rage could be something like Headstrong for Blood Claws, forced charges, but not forced movement.

I think Death Company should turn into something like Henchmen in Grey Knights or command squad for SM. A unit that does not use up a slot but you can only take 1 per generic HQ. The named HQ could turn them into troops, but leave them non-scoring. They are too crazed to care. Perhaps some weird equivalent to the Dark Eldar rule in which destroying a unit makes them stronger could be done.

I think charging of the Deep Strike would be too strong, but accurate deep striking, plus something to help protect deep strikers for that critical first enemy shooting phase would help those angels get stuck in.

I want to get rid of heavy weapons options in most units, replace with special weapon options and special melee weapon options.

Fast vehicles can stay, maybe an ability to make a disordered charge when dismounting to help get stuck in.

Instead of a dedicated anti-air platform, I want to see BA, masters of the skies that they are, get cheap Skyfire options, maybe on the Devastators. Instead of a +1 BS when the sarge doesn't shoot, he can give them Skyfire.

I think BA are just a little TOO different from normal marine chapters to be rolled into the codex.

You would have to account for:
-Sanguinary guard
-sanguinary priests
-several special characters as opposed to the 1 or 2 the marine codex gives for all the non ultramarines (the BA codex has 8 iirc.)
-allow assault squads as troops.
-chapter tactic for descent of angels and red thirst
-get furiosos and their blood talons in.
-get furioso librarians in.
-get the blood angel psychic powers in (What on earth would Mephiston do without wings of sanguinius? walk?)
-turn rhinos, razorbacks, predators, vindicators and whirlwinds fast for an automatic extra point cost. (This means on army builder, there's going to be an annoying little checkbox for "BA chapter tactics? +xx pts" on every vehicle in your C:SM building section.)
-Add deep strike to land raiders. (Same as above.)
-Change the missile type on stormravens.
-add in death company, death company dreads, and reclusiarchs.
-Different honor guard.
-Enough fluff to fill a standalone codex.

That's quite a handful of unit pages and explanations to the player about what happens when they use "Blood Angel chapter tactics."

I think if it were already that way, there would be several people saying "man, why don't they just break BA off as their own codex, they take up so much room in C:SM for stuff that only they get."

Although, admittedly, I'd kind of like getting artificer armor honor guard that come with power weapons. And being able to snag shield eternal.

Same as with the Space Wolves: To be released after Orks.

Ive stood by Blood Angels from 5th through 6th and I enjoy playing them, I just hope they'll become more competitive.

Bear in mind what Blood Angels are meant to be.....

Fast Moving
Dreadnought Variants,
Death Company as suicidial, homicidal death defying...(and yes, that was a Sabu reference!),

This is what I'd do:
- give option for either chapter master/captain on bike to give bikes as troops as they'd sit nice along side assault marines
- reduce jump packs points cost for all units including death company to 3pts to match SM,
- off the back of the above, if death company take jump packs, they can only take weapons upto 12" range, thus trying to negate the relentless rule, keep them non point scoring, (I'm trying not to make them too OP)
- give land speeders with a maximum of 5 troop capacity as a transport for regular marines
- give storm talons,
- option for chapter master
- option to keep drop pods doors closed and next turn, assault from within the pod,
- allow charge from rhinos provided rhino has not moved,
- make land raiders fast, but only 3 HP as in apocalypse formations,
- option of their own psychical powers or BRB powers,
- same points reductions on scouts as SM
- points reduction on all named HQs except Gabriel Seth (he seems to be quite balanced for his cost)
- Mephiston and DC Tycho option to join squads (we have house rule for DC Tycho, as he has been inducted into death company, he must accompany them, but the codex isn't clear, so I'm calling for codex clarification),
- give sanguinary guard either 2 wounds or invulnerable save,
- give grav guns
- options for rams on land raiders
- give codex specific FnP on a 4+ as per previous to BRB
- tycho option for jump pack

Beard wrote:

- option for chapter master

Forgot to mention this. Need a way to make custom chapter masters for Blood Angel descended chapters. Which also leads me to wanting a few "chapter tactics" for some of the descendants.

- option to keep drop pods doors closed and next turn, assault from within the pod,

9/10 would buy more pods.

- give sanguinary guard either 2 wounds or invulnerable save,

Or a bit of a discount.

- give grav guns

I don't really like grav guns >.> I'd be fine if they stayed away.

- tycho option for jump pack

That's one I forgot to mention: options for jump pack or remove jump pack on the special characters, kind of like Khan and his bike. I mean, this is Blood Angels. Literally every marine has a jump pack somewhere in his locker, right?

Points drop is a given
DC tycho and memphy the IC rule
Cheaper JP's
Give DC a boost. Counterattack, cheaper weapons, +1I all of it would be great.
The ability to assault out of DSing even if just with a character
DC dread can get a new FOC slot. Maybe FA as it has fleet?
Chapter Master entry
SP's can give 4+ fnp and have either 2w or artificer armor
Give DSing landraiders a rule so if they land on enemy models they count as ramming/tank shocking. The damn thing wouldnt be destroyed because theres a few squishy guardsmen beneath it
Maybe throw in melta variant of the Baal pred.
Also wouldnt mind an army wide buff of Red Thirst where it gives maybe a 5+ FnP while DC get a base 4+

niv-mizzet wrote:

Beard wrote:
- give grav guns

I don't really like grav guns >.> I'd be fine if they stayed away.

No grav guns, that would be like giving BA plasma talons...

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Points drop is a given
DC tycho and memphy the IC rule
Cheaper JP's
Give DC a boost. Counterattack, cheaper weapons, +1I all of it would be great.
The ability to assault out of DSing even if just with a character
DC dread can get a new FOC slot. Maybe FA as it has fleet?
Chapter Master entry
SP's can give 4+ fnp and have either 2w or artificer armor
Give DSing landraiders a rule so if they land on enemy models they count as ramming/tank shocking. The damn thing wouldnt be destroyed because theres a few squishy guardsmen beneath it
Maybe throw in melta variant of the Baal pred.
Also wouldnt mind an army wide buff of Red Thirst where it gives maybe a 5+ FnP while DC get a base 4+

JP price drop along with the DC boosts you listed would make DC seriously overpowered. Just give them the cheaper jump pack cost from C:SM and they will already be an amazing unit.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

But that's why I support molding all the marine codices (that all play fundamentally the same anyways and share the overwhelming majority of identical units anyways) into one so that more time and effort are spent balancing the game than a dozen marine codices.

Yes, that totally worked well with Black Templars, they totally play the same now as they did before. Totally didn't lose anythign in the transition at all.

Ditto. So Blacksails and Pergerine want them reduced from 8 characters to 2 and lose all unique units except DC? Because that's what happened to BT. At that point they are no longer BA and BT, but simply red and black space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

Ralis wrote:


We can make a few logical conclusion about the new BA codex.
...
Third: They probably will gain access to the Hunter/Stalker

I doubt it. I doubt they'll get centurions either. Probably going to lose a lot of deep strike options as well, and certainly won't gain assault from deep strike.

I would like to see the removal of librarian dreadnoughts, the stripping back of special rules for all units. I guess I could see Death Company with Feel No Pain and Rage, but that's about all I think they should have.

Are you seriuosly suggesting they nerf the worst book in the game? I'm sorry, but what's wrong with you?

+1I, dropping jump pack costs, changing special rules etc really aren't going to make much difference now GW has jumped the Apocalypse Shark.

I want some Dirty D loving

BaalSNAFU wrote:

Ditto. So Blacksails and Pergerine want then reduced from 6 characters to 2 and lose all unique units except DC? Because that's what happened to BT. At that point they are no longer BA and BT, but simply red and black space marines.

First of all, they really are and should be red and black space marines. I've never understood the desire to have a bajillion marine codices, each one for a chapter that's marginally different.

Second of all, what I'd like to see, would be for them to keep about 3 SCs, and one or two upgrade characters for one or two additional units I'd include in C:SM.

All that's allegedly so different it couldn't be rolled in is easily represented by either a paint job, or single option line for an existing unit.

Librarian dreads become an upgrade for venerable dreads for all chapters.
Furioso dreads become an upgrade from ironclad dreads for all chapters.
Their vehicles become fast through a CT, as would be their Assault squad troops and black thirst/red rage.
Honour Guard could purchase jump packs, and BA could have an exclusive wargear option for Blades Encarmine to make Sanguinary Guard. And they could alternatively be included full in, which would be one of two unique units they could have.
Death company get their own unit entry, BA only.
Apothecaries become available to everyone, just like Sanguinary Priests. One of them can be upgraded to Corbulo.

That's pretty much it. Everything else they have has a counterpart in C:SM, or near enough to not make much of a difference.

You can condense most of the marine codices into a CT, two unique lines of wargear, three SCs, one or two upgrade characters, and one or two unique unit entries.

Codex-wide points drops would be nice. Red Thirst remains on all non-vehicle models. Chapter tactic that eliminates the 'half your forces must deploy' rule, or changes it so that Descent of Angels is worth building an army around.

DC needs to be either a) cheaper or b) given a unit specific version of Eternal Warrior and the ability to assault after deepstrikes and out of any transport. Edit: Counter attack would be fething nice too.

Assault Marines need to have discounted power weapons (perhaps a free one per five guys) and remove 'rifle' based special weapons like meltaguns and flamers, Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers do that work already. Drop pods are 15-30 point dedicated transports if jump packs are NOT taken.

Tactical Marines aren't great in general so we don't really need anything here.

Terminators are fine, assaults being far better than tacticals in every way.

Sanguinary Guard need to have two of three things: 2 wounds, an invlunerable save, or better weapon choices (as in ap2 weaponry)

Priests are fine, they need to stay expensive, adding Rampage like someone suggested would be a cool I think.

Dreadnoughts are ok, add Rampage to any one that takes two cc weapons.

HQ's need some rearranging, Mephiston needs IC and either a wack with the nerf bat or a set of limiting rules (can only be taken in 2000 points or more, only if x and y are being taken, etc.). Dante needs Eternal Warrior, because it's stupid he doesn't have it, his axe loses unwieldy and maybe a 10 point bump in price. Sanguinor is a giant douchebag and stupid, nuke him. Seth is fine.Chapter master template would be ok, but there needs to be a small 'chapter tactics section' for the various BA sub-chapters if you want to do that. All the other HQ choices seem ok.

Special Characters need some work, Tycho's rules are so badly written just redo them; add IC on both profiles, jump pack yay/nay options. Corbulo is fine, but needs that jump pack option.

All tanks are fast, not just Rhino chassis, but the Rhino based tanks get jink.

Stormravens can be added to a Descent of Angels list and come in the same turn as the rest of the deepstriking army.

Everything else seems relatively ok, save the ongoing points issue.

 Blacksails wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:

Ditto. So Blacksails and Pergerine want then reduced from 6 characters to 2 and lose all unique units except DC? Because that's what happened to BT. At that point they are no longer BA and BT, but simply red and black space marines.

First of all, they really are and should be red and black space marines. I've never understood the desire to have a bajillion marine codices, each one for a chapter that's marginally different.

Second of all, what I'd like to see, would be for them to keep about 3 SCs, and one or two upgrade characters for one or two additional units I'd include in C:SM.

All that's allegedly so different it couldn't be rolled in is easily represented by either a paint job, or single option line for an existing unit.

Librarian dreads become an upgrade for venerable dreads for all chapters.
Furioso dreads become an upgrade from ironclad dreads for all chapters.
Their vehicles become fast through a CT, as would be their Assault squad troops and black thirst/red rage.
Honour Guard could purchase jump packs, and BA could have an exclusive wargear option for Blades Encarmine to make Sanguinary Guard. And they could alternatively be included full in, which would be one of two unique units they could have.
Death company get their own unit entry, BA only.
Apothecaries become available to everyone, just like Sanguinary Priests. One of them can be upgraded to Corbulo.

That's pretty much it. Everything else they have has a counterpart in C:SM, or near enough to not make much of a difference.

You can condense most of the marine codices into a CT, two unique lines of wargear, three SCs, one or two upgrade characters, and one or two unique unit entries.

Why stop there? Why not just have 2 codices, Imperium and Not-Imperium?

 Blacksails wrote:

BaalSNAFU wrote:

Ditto. So Blacksails and Pergerine want then reduced from 6 characters to 2 and lose all unique units except DC? Because that's what happened to BT. At that point they are no longer BA and BT, but simply red and black space marines.

First of all, they really are and should be red and black space marines. I've never understood the desire to have a bajillion marine codices, each one for a chapter that's marginally different.

Second of all, what I'd like to see, would be for them to keep about 3 SCs, and one or two upgrade characters for one or two additional units I'd include in C:SM.

All that's allegedly so different it couldn't be rolled in is easily represented by either a paint job, or single option line for an existing unit.

Librarian dreads become an upgrade for venerable dreads for all chapters.
Furioso dreads become an upgrade from ironclad dreads for all chapters.
Their vehicles become fast through a CT, as would be their Assault squad troops and black thirst/red rage.
Honour Guard could purchase jump packs, and BA could have an exclusive wargear option for Blades Encarmine to make Sanguinary Guard. And they could alternatively be included full in, which would be one of two unique units they could have.
Death company get their own unit entry, BA only.
Apothecaries become available to everyone, just like Sanguinary Priests. One of them can be upgraded to Corbulo.

That's pretty much it. Everything else they have has a counterpart in C:SM, or near enough to not make much of a difference.

You can condense most of the marine codices into a CT, two unique lines of wargear, three SCs, one or two upgrade characters, and one or two unique unit entries.

As much as I want to argue that, I can't. Granted, there is already a BA dex slated for Nov, so it ain't happening. You honestly think, that even if the codex release was scrubbed, that GW would actually go through all that trouble to make BA their own unique-enough, and playable chapter? Or would they screw the BA with the big fat cock of cost cutting/material trimming that they screwed the BT with? Be honest man, we both know they wouldn't take the former route. Not to mention that the BA have their own dozen psychic powers that they A. Need and B. You.neglected to address.

Orblivion wrote:

Why stop there? Why not just have 2 codices, Imperium and Not-Imperium?

That's your rebuttal? Take what I said to the absolute most and illogical extreme? Where did I say I wanted to do that? How was that even implied by wanting all the marine codices in one book?

BaalSNAFU wrote:
As much as I want to argue that, I can't. Granted, there is already a BA dex slated for Nov, so it ain't happening. You honestly think, that even if the codex release was scrubbed, that GW would actually go through all that trouble to make BA their own unique-enough, and playable chapter? Or would they screw the BA with the big fat cock of cost cutting/material trimming that they screwed the BT with? Be honest man, we both know they wouldn't take the former route. Not to mention that the BA have their own dozen psychic powers that they A. Need and B. You.neglected to address.

I know there's a BA dex already slated, but this is a whishlist thread. Discussing what you want as point values is as equally fruitless as discussing that I'd like them to be in book.

Well, without the emotionally charged hyperbole, I don't think BT were screwed as hard as people make them out to be, and that a few simple changes would make them just fine.

As for the BA powers, they don't need them. You only want them. DA lost their powers with the new book, and C:SM lost their unique powers, I don't see how BA need their own table. As far as I'm concerned, they would be just fine rolling on BRB powers.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well what do you want from Blood Angels in 6th Edition?

A hardback book that retails for $49.50.

 Blacksails wrote:

Orblivion wrote:

Why stop there? Why not just have 2 codices, Imperium and Not-Imperium?

That's your rebuttal? Take what I said to the absolute most and illogical extreme? Where did I say I wanted to do that? How was that even implied by wanting all the marine codices in one book?

BaalSNAFU wrote:
As much as I want to argue that, I can't. Granted, there is already a BA dex slated for Nov, so it ain't happening. You honestly think, that even if the codex release was scrubbed, that GW would actually go through all that trouble to make BA their own unique-enough, and playable chapter? Or would they screw the BA with the big fat cock of cost cutting/material trimming that they screwed the BT with? Be honest man, we both know they wouldn't take the former route. Not to mention that the BA have their own dozen psychic powers that they A. Need and B. You.neglected to address.

I know there's a BA dex already slated, but this is a whishlist thread. Discussing what you want as point values is as equally fruitless as discussing that I'd like them to be in book.

Well, without the emotionally charged hyperbole, I don't think BT were screwed as hard as people make them out to be, and that a few simple changes would make them just fine.

As for the BA powers, they don't need them. You only want them. DA lost their powers with the new book, and C:SM lost their unique powers, I don't see how BA need their own table. As far as I'm concerned, they would be just fine rolling on BRB powers.

That's my rebuttal because it is no more ridiculous than your own suggestion when compared to what will actually happen. GW has been doing multiple Marine codices since the beginning, there is absolutely no reason to expect them to do anything else. Yet whenever there is a codex conversation someone like you pops up and mentions the all-in-one marine codex just to stir the pot. Its not going to happen, at least not in this edition, so why are you even bothering if not to troll?

 Orblivion wrote:


That's my rebuttal because it is no more ridiculous than your own suggestion when compared to what will actually happen. GW has been doing multiple Marine codices since the beginning, there is absolutely no reason to expect them to do anything else. Yet whenever there is a codex conversation someone like you pops up and mentions the all-in-one marine codex just to stir the pot. Its not going to happen, at least not in this edition, so why are you even bothering if not to troll?

GW also rolled in the BT codex in a move I'm sure a lot of people weren't expecting until the rumours started circulating. Besides, just because something has been, doesn't mean it always will be. Catachans had their own codex way back.

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm genuinely contributing what I'd want in a thread about wishlisting. I'm also not trolling, and I'd ask you not accuse me of such. Having a differing opinion or wanting something you don't is not a grounds to attack someone. If you don't like what I'm saying, you're not forced to respond.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


That's my rebuttal because it is no more ridiculous than your own suggestion when compared to what will actually happen. GW has been doing multiple Marine codices since the beginning, there is absolutely no reason to expect them to do anything else. Yet whenever there is a codex conversation someone like you pops up and mentions the all-in-one marine codex just to stir the pot. Its not going to happen, at least not in this edition, so why are you even bothering if not to troll?

GW also rolled in the BT codex in a move I'm sure a lot of people weren't expecting until the rumours started circulating. Besides, just because something has been, doesn't mean it always will be. Catachans had their own codex way back.

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm genuinely contributing what I'd want in a thread about wishlisting. I'm also not trolling, and I'd ask you not accuse me of such. Having a differing opinion or wanting something you don't is not a grounds to attack someone. If you don't like what I'm saying, you're not forced to respond.

Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices. Everyone in this thread already knows that there will be a new Blood Angels codex later this year. It serves no purpose to even bring it up, especially since it is ALWAYS brought up in these threads and it never goes well. If you don't want to be accused of trolling then don't do things that will be perceived as trolling.

Martel732 wrote:
No, not rending. Not yet another unit that makes armor pointless. If you don't fix the spoiling assault problem with DC, you don't fix them. Oh, and get them out of the troop slot. They don't belong there b/c they don't score. Might as well be honest about them.

I call it the priest tax if you want to get access to FNP and FC. If you aren't using FNP for your infantry lists, why play BA at all? I'd like for BA to have it built in like IH.

Why not make the priest an upgrade to a squad, drop his points and have him only affect his squad? Priests stay, but they aren't a "tax", as you put it.

Maybe. But they'd have to be more efficient than Iron Hands to be worth anything. Because FC is basically worthless now. FC is so furious that we charge Grey Hunters or CSM and still lose! Yay! So furious!

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, not rending. Not yet another unit that makes armor pointless. If you don't fix the spoiling assault problem with DC, you don't fix them. Oh, and get them out of the troop slot. They don't belong there b/c they don't score. Might as well be honest about them.

I call it the priest tax if you want to get access to FNP and FC. If you aren't using FNP for your infantry lists, why play BA at all? I'd like for BA to have it built in like IH.

Why not make the priest an upgrade to a squad, drop his points and have him only affect his squad? Priests stay, but they aren't a "tax", as you put it.

This was my idea for Priests, as well as adding this upgrade option to Sanguinary Guard. But I agree with Martel about them not being as good as they once were, I would rather the +1I than the +1S that we were left with from Furious Charge.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


That's my rebuttal because it is no more ridiculous than your own suggestion when compared to what will actually happen. GW has been doing multiple Marine codices since the beginning, there is absolutely no reason to expect them to do anything else. Yet whenever there is a codex conversation someone like you pops up and mentions the all-in-one marine codex just to stir the pot. Its not going to happen, at least not in this edition, so why are you even bothering if not to troll?

GW also rolled in the BT codex in a move I'm sure a lot of people weren't expecting until the rumours started circulating. Besides, just because something has been, doesn't mean it always will be. Catachans had their own codex way back.

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm genuinely contributing what I'd want in a thread about wishlisting. I'm also not trolling, and I'd ask you not accuse me of such. Having a differing opinion or wanting something you don't is not a grounds to attack someone. If you don't like what I'm saying, you're not forced to respond.

Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices. Everyone in this thread already knows that there will be a new Blood Angels codex later this year. It serves no purpose to even bring it up, especially since it is ALWAYS brought up in these threads and it never goes well. If you don't want to be accused of trolling then don't do things that will be perceived as trolling.

All of those also started as 'supplements' to the main SM codex at the time as well.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:


That's my rebuttal because it is no more ridiculous than your own suggestion when compared to what will actually happen. GW has been doing multiple Marine codices since the beginning, there is absolutely no reason to expect them to do anything else. Yet whenever there is a codex conversation someone like you pops up and mentions the all-in-one marine codex just to stir the pot. Its not going to happen, at least not in this edition, so why are you even bothering if not to troll?

GW also rolled in the BT codex in a move I'm sure a lot of people weren't expecting until the rumours started circulating. Besides, just because something has been, doesn't mean it always will be. Catachans had their own codex way back.

I'm not stirring the pot. I'm genuinely contributing what I'd want in a thread about wishlisting. I'm also not trolling, and I'd ask you not accuse me of such. Having a differing opinion or wanting something you don't is not a grounds to attack someone. If you don't like what I'm saying, you're not forced to respond.

Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices. Everyone in this thread already knows that there will be a new Blood Angels codex later this year. It serves no purpose to even bring it up, especially since it is ALWAYS brought up in these threads and it never goes well. If you don't want to be accused of trolling then don't do things that will be perceived as trolling.

All of those also started as 'supplements' to the main SM codex at the time as well.

Look, I'm not trying to get into an argument about the history of every codex. My main point was that we all know there is going to be a Blood Angels codex for this edition, and that this thread is about what we want to see in it. Bringing up the idea of rolling it into C:SM is not on topic, nor is it going to happen in this edition, so why bring it up?

 Orblivion wrote:


Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices. Everyone in this thread already knows that there will be a new Blood Angels codex later this year. It serves no purpose to even bring it up, especially since it is ALWAYS brought up in these threads and it never goes well. If you don't want to be accused of trolling then don't do things that will be perceived as trolling.

What is the standard for who deserves a codex? Is it a certain number of editions in print? Catachans started out as their own codex, so technically they've always been their own codex until they were rolled in. It just happened years ago, that's all.

If it serves no purpose to discuss what I want in a thread about people want from BA in 6th, then why does it serve a purpose to even discuss if people want new units, or points cost changes, or new wargear? Why is your idea of what you want better than what I want? Why are you considering what I want to be trolling?

All I see from you is a difference in perspective, only I don't accuse you of trolling. You, however, are accusing me of trolling for wanting something different than what you want.

By the way, it only gets brought up in marine codex wishlisting dicsussions. It just so happens there are people who wish all the marines to be in one codex for numerous reasons. It can be accomplished without losing the 'feel' of the chapter, and its well within the realms of possibility.

I think a book like Clan: Raukaan would be acceptable as well.

Mechanistically speaking, I'm still stumped as to what real "fixes" are possible. Meqs are bad in 6th and assault is bad. So I don't see a lot of daylight for meqs who assault.

 Orblivion wrote:

Yes, I know BT were rolled in but the BT only had their own codex for one edition whereas Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have been separate for as long as there have even been codices.

I'm not going to be foolish and debate anything about any chapter being rolled back into the Space Marine codex. I'm all for variety in 40k.

However, this quoted statement isn't true. The Black Templars have been separate from the Space Marine Codex since 3rd Edition. They were part of the Armegeddon Codex that came out in 2000 (3rd edition). This makes it 3 editions that they were separate (3rd, 4th, 5th). The first Space Wolves Codex came out in second edition, and the first Blood Angels Codex was also in 2nd edition (combined with Dark Angels at the time). So, your 3 examples are exactly 1 edition older. Technically, the Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't each have their own Codex until 3rd edition, same as Black Templars, if we're being pedantic.

Linky

Perhaps it would be wise for someone to make a "Why should there be more than one codex for Marine chapters?" post so that threads like this don't turn into what this has turned into.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Perhaps it would be wise for someone to make a "Why should there be more than one codex for Marine chapters?" post so that threads like this don't turn into what this has turned into.

Seconded

sorry, i lost you at page 2...
however what i would love in a new codex would be something to make BA player play with BA, and not with a fancy overpriced, les option red coloured space marine...

1) point cost adjustment;
2) adding some options (like flakk missile for ML and adding field for libby or artificier armour for generic HQ)
those 2 are probably the only thing we will ever get...

3) something to bring ASM to charge range. Assault from DoA could be a nice addiction; even giving assault veichle to low priced veichle, or pod
or something to survive until assault range (ie a force field, thatn FNP alone does'nt work and libby probably will lose his psionic powers)
4) some big tank or more resilient low price tank. Or some equipment to let rhino/razor survive past turn 2
5) more flyer, like stormtalon, price discount on stormraven, or another cool flyer unit

i'd like something to say at the world "hey, this are the SM who will go on close range and move very quick", like a faster bike (or jetbike?), or like; a quick moving dreadnaught, or even a low price low level little flyer like infantry with flying jump pack... or make a "super jump pack" that let ASM fly and work like a flying unit or something similar... so you can use winged jump pack for something more than just being cool (of course you would need to pay extra cost, and sanguinary guard would be even more priced but infinitely more useful...)

And of course make a decent model for Mephiston: he's as ugly as powerful at the moment. Also, make Mephiston a MC and give him an invulnerable save as well
adding some MC or anti-MC unit could be nice, but i don't whant grav cent, i would like something more BA and less SM-with-red-armor
also, make Sanguinor useful and useable (he too could be a MC... and he also could have a new model, 'cause at the moment is a bit ugly too...)

howver, you know we would never be satisfied and new codex would let us all disappointed... x_x

We don't need any new units. I just want the existing ones to be good.
Besides the point drop something like:

> Cheaper Jump Packs for DC
> Either Inv save for Sanguinary Guard or make Glaive Encarmine an actually good weapon.
> Storm Talon maybe?
> Overall improvements to named characters. Or just drop half of them, I don't know.


No, I don't want to have Gravy-guns or Centurions.
And please, don't mess with the current BA army rules.

A new model for Sanguinary Priest and maybe new box for Assault Marines.

That's all I ask for.

I'm sure BA will get changes: vanilla marines lost combat tactics. I don't care of descent of angels goes; it's bad anyway.

Page 1 end with increasingly boring and useless discussion if BA should have their own codex.

Im jumping right to Page 4 hoping to more interesting topic...

...nope, still topic of codex. Well played Dakka, well played...

Okay then. Let's get super serious: would you design this to survive Taudar firepower or not? If so, how do you do this with T4 models?

Give jumping infantry jink saves.

each-uisge wrote:

i'd like something to say at the world "hey, this are the SM who will go on close range and move very quick", like a faster bike (or jetbike?), or like; a quick moving dreadnaught, or even a low price low level little flyer like infantry with flying jump pack... or make a "super jump pack" that let ASM fly and work like a flying unit or something similar... so you can use winged jump pack for something more than just being cool (of course you would need to pay extra cost, and sanguinary guard would be even more priced but infinitely more useful...)

I'm making a fandex chapter that has flying devastators. Move like a FMC, 1 auto-dies any time a grounding test is failed, and a failed Ld check will send them packing.
The 25 Sanguinary guard on my shelf are smiling at the thought of them all being flyers. I would run that army in a heartbeat.

And of course make a decent model for Mephiston: he's as ugly as powerful at the moment. Also, make Mephiston a MC and give him an invulnerable save as well
adding some MC or anti-MC unit could be nice, but i don't whant grav cent, i would like something more BA and less SM-with-red-armor
also, make Sanguinor useful and useable (he too could be a MC... and he also could have a new model, 'cause at the moment is a bit ugly too...)

Mephy doesn't need much. He does need either an AP2 weapon/artifact or a points drop to reflect that nerf from 6th. He also needs his powers to stay the same, or at the very least guarantee wings, because moving 6" when you're a one model melee unit is an epic fail. I don't think he needs an invuln though. That's asking a bit much, especially if you want an iron halo or storm shield.

I said earlier in the thread that Sangy could be a FMC though. Could also cost quite a bit less.

howver, you know we would never be satisfied and new codex would let us all disappointed... x_x

My biggest fear is major nerfage or outright removal of some of the models I already have. And I have at least one of everything in the codex. So if I got handed a hardback book that just had a reprint of 5th with some lower point costs in line with the other marines, I'd feel sorta relieved, but still disappointed.

For BA speed is their armour. They need to spend less time on the board before getting into a charge. This means lots of jump, lots of bikes, lots fast transports and lots of deep strike.

The goal should be an army that gets a significant portion of its forces stuck in on T2 (or even T1 if you're going second and your opponent deploys well forwards).

I like DofA, I wish more Tau units had something similar, but I can also see the problem behind it. The units with DofA come in as small groups rather than a singular force. This gives an opponent a chance to target them individually with the bulk of his army and clean their clocks.

So something where DofA works like drop pods and you can synchronize a mass drop would be ideal. This floods the opponent with too many targets to deal with at once and allows you to more or less garuntee that some of your force will be close enough on the next turn to use their jetpacks and get the Hammer of Wrath attack that Blood Angels need to score early kills with.

Actually, yeah, that would be a good one, BA always get to use their jump packs to move and to charge. I think that would help them out huge. It increases the range at which they can assault considerably and it gives them a free automatic hit at initiative 10. Add in Furious Charge and Rage for the Red Thirst and you have a pretty nasty unit off the charge.

Anyway, there's a couple of ideas that could make BA relevant again that fit the feel I've always gotten from them when I've faced them.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay then. Let's get super serious: would you design this to survive Taudar firepower or not? If so, how do you do this with T4 models?

I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete.

I would just like them to become more competitive with other more rounded off chapters like dark angels. I'm not one to know much about point systems or match skills but hearing from others sometimes feel that blood angels are a bit handicapped during battles when it's points for points. I'm not sure on this as I don't play just from I'm hearing from others

All blood angel units have a charge range of 6 +D6.

Among other changes.

BA suffer from being an edition overpriced and paying for a lot of great close combat ability in an edition that strongly favours shooting. The result is a serious point inefficiency. A smal adjustment to bring them in line, plus some ability to make all that close combat ability pay off will make them as nasty as they were in 5th.

Maybe making Decent of Angels work like Deathwing Assault.
1] You decide what are going to use it.
2] They all come in on Turn One or Two, the Blood Angels Choice.
I would love to see Blood Angles being able to Assault out of Reserves, but I don’t think that is going to happen.

I could see them getting the Double Jump Pack Move and Hit and Run.

It would also be nice if their Furious Charge Strength Bonus on the Hammer of Wrath Attack.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
All blood angel units have a charge range of 6 +D6.

Among other changes.

Being always able to use their jetpacks on the charge would take care of range issues, give them Hammer of Wrath and fit the flavour of the army more IMHO.

Jefffar wrote:
For BA speed is their armour. They need to spend less time on the board before getting into a charge. This means lots of jump, lots of bikes, lots fast transports and lots of deep strike.

The goal should be an army that gets a significant portion of its forces stuck in on T2 (or even T1 if you're going second and your opponent deploys well forwards).

I like DofA, I wish more Tau units had something similar, but I can also see the problem behind it. The units with DofA come in as small groups rather than a singular force. This gives an opponent a chance to target them individually with the bulk of his army and clean their clocks.

So something where DofA works like drop pods and you can synchronize a mass drop would be ideal. This floods the opponent with too many targets to deal with at once and allows you to more or less garuntee that some of your force will be close enough on the next turn to use their jetpacks and get the Hammer of Wrath attack that Blood Angels need to score early kills with.

Actually, yeah, that would be a good one, BA always get to use their jump packs to move and to charge. I think that would help them out huge. It increases the range at which they can assault considerably and it gives them a free automatic hit at initiative 10. Add in Furious Charge and Rage for the Red Thirst and you have a pretty nasty unit off the charge.

Anyway, there's a couple of ideas that could make BA relevant again that fit the feel I've always gotten from them when I've faced them.

I would hope we could get by without stealing the raven guard's tactic out from under them. I'm of the belief that, if we had that, we'd essentially be raven guard +1. (Or minus one if our point costs stay hiked up.)

I think a better method (and I said part of this earlier in a long list) is to allow units full of DoA jump packers to declare themselves part of the drop pod count during deployment. So if you have 3 JP assault squads and 2 sternguard pods, you could bring in 3 of those units turn 1.

Another interesting chapter strategy might be the ability to start rolling for reserves on turn 1, and auto-get turn 3, a round earlier than other armies.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Maybe making Decent of Angels work like Deathwing Assault.
1] You decide what are going to use it.
2] They all come in on Turn One or Two, the Blood Angels Choice.
I would love to see Blood Angles being able to Assault out of Reserves, but I don’t think that is going to happen.

I could see them getting the Double Jump Pack Move and Hit and Run.

It would also be nice if their Furious Charge Strength Bonus on the Hammer of Wrath Attack.

Pretty much. I doubt were going to see assault off of reserves (and definitely not off of deep strike) any time soon. This edition wants folks to have a chance to defend themselves for at least 1 turn before that Death Star crashes into their lines. I can't help but agree with this principle because the alternative just isn't very fun as it creates even worse auto-wins than any leaf blower/taudar abomination.

Jefffar wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Maybe making Decent of Angels work like Deathwing Assault.
1] You decide what are going to use it.
2] They all come in on Turn One or Two, the Blood Angels Choice.
I would love to see Blood Angles being able to Assault out of Reserves, but I don’t think that is going to happen.

I could see them getting the Double Jump Pack Move and Hit and Run.

It would also be nice if their Furious Charge Strength Bonus on the Hammer of Wrath Attack.

Pretty much. I doubt were going to see assault off of reserves (and definitely not off of deep strike) any time soon. This edition wants folks to have a chance to defend themselves for at least 1 turn before that Death Star crashes into their lines. I can't help but agree with this principle because the alternative just isn't very fun as it creates even worse auto-wins than any leaf blower/taudar abomination.

You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

Absolutely not, what I want to know is why it's OK for shooting to be able to do this but unfathomable for melee to do the same.

It still takes me a few turns to shoot an opponent off the table under the best of circumstances. A table with suitable amounts of terrain and some good play will still let my opponent have the chance to force me to make some hard choices about trying to shoot some more or avoiding assaults.

On the other hand, if units could assault out of deep strike, Tau's only shooting would be overwatch during their opponents first assault phase. After that its just rolling dice until the Tau are gone. Ditto guard. Eldar at least might make a go of it still.

This is why I want to see BA be able to get into assault sooner, but not instantly. If they are stuck in the firelane too long, they can't do anything. If they get a free pass into base to base, then the other guy can't do anything. There needs to be a balance point to keep it interesting.

Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

Absolutely not, what I want to know is why it's OK for shooting to be able to do this but unfathomable for melee to do the same.

Well back in 5th I used to my Wolf Scout to clean out backfields.
>Arrive Shoot up A Command or Devastator Squad and then Assault it usually taking out it out in the 2nd turn of Combat, then it was off to take down another.
>3 Swarms Genestealers Yingmalls coming out of reserve and taking out 3 units in one turn without a chance of defending yourself.

Yes that was fun times.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:
Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

To br Honest I would love to see Blood Angel Vanguard Vets keep that even though it has been my bane for years. I don't think it is going to happen, but I hope they get to keep it.

Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You do realize that if a Tau player gets first turn there's no defending to be done against Riptides other than hoping to be out of LoS or hiding in Reserves, yes?

And having all of your backfield units being taken out in one turn without being able to defend yourself is any better?

Absolutely not, what I want to know is why it's OK for shooting to be able to do this but unfathomable for melee to do the same.

Well back in 5th I used to my Wolf Scout to clean out backfields.
>Arrive Shoot up A Command or Devastator Squad and then Assault it usually taking out it out in the 2nd turn of Combat, then it was off to take down another.
>3 Swarms Genestealers Yingmalls coming out of reserve and taking out 3 units in one turn without a chance of defending yourself.

Yes that was fun times.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:
Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

To br Honest I would love to see Blood Angel Vanguard Vets keep that even though it has been my bane for years. I don't think it is going to happen, but I hope they get to keep it.

See I don't get why Blood Angels can't have something similar to these options. I mean, even if three squads of Assault Marines or Death Company do suddenly appear near a Tau gunline it isn't an auto win. Sure, there's a great chance the marines get stuck in and proceed to stop stupid commie frog faces, but they still have to get there. Just having the option to not have to run up the field in easily destroyed transports or on foot/pack would solve SO many issues with Blood Angels.

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone considered a similar setup like DA currently has? Their Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing all require different HQ choices in order for their special rules to take effect. Why not do something similar with Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and, dare I say it, Red Wing?

 Orblivion wrote:
Honestly I'd be all for assaulting out of reserves. I'm doing my best to be unbiased about it, I'll leave it to you guys to decide whether or not I succeeded.

With the addition of overwatch and interceptor, it really wouldn't be OP. Granted those are only snapshots, but compared to dedicated shooty units who can arrive via deep strike even assaulting out of deep strike would be at a disadvantage.

A unit that wants to shoot out of deep strike only has to worry about scatter and maybe interceptor. They can fire away all they want, despite the "disorientation" that units suffer from the act of deep striking. They also don't have to worry about return fire during their own turn. By comparison, a unit that wants to assault out of deep strike has to worry about scatter, maybe interceptor, charge range, and overwatch. And the combat works both ways, the assaulting unit will usually take some wounds in return.

There are plenty of shooty units that can do more damage out of deep strike than a squad of assault marines could achieve, so why not give a limited number of BA units assault from deep strike?

This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

In addition to say...a farsight/shadowsun bomb landing right where it wants to with a ton of plasma and fusion with split fire making a ring of death and destruction around them, ignore cover, twin-link, with a ton of ablative wounds, stealth, shrouded, an init 5 hit and run, and one tagalong marine ally for atsknf so they can't be swept. That's less of a unit and more of a one-unit army though.

Shooting has had some crazy powerful "sudden arrivals" in various shapes and sizes. Assault on the other hand....Vanguard veterans who cost 200000 points a model before wargear?...5th ed. Ymgarl genestealers, and only from terrain? IIRC, I was able to assault after infiltrating my genestealers in 3rd, and one of the missions let me be within 12" with infiltrators...I think it was stronghold assault. I kind of recall getting to wipe a unit on turn 1 like that a couple times.

Jefffar wrote:
Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

Not true. If an assault unit wins the assault, they just get shot to death the next turn.

Jefffar wrote:
Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

Overwatch and Interceptor shouldn't cancel out assault from deep strike completely as that would defeat the purpose, but they can soften it at times and at other times nullify it. My point though was that there are plenty of shooty units that can do a lot of damage right out of deep strike, so as Almighty Walrus already said why is it so frowned upon for an assault unit to do the same?

Because the Taudar overlords disapprove :(

 Orblivion wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

Overwatch and Interceptor shouldn't cancel out assault from deep strike completely as that would defeat the purpose, but they can soften it at times and at other times nullify it. My point though was that there are plenty of shooty units that can do a lot of damage right out of deep strike, so as Almighty Walrus already said why is it so frowned upon for an assault unit to do the same?

If they are given an even footing, assault is more powerful than shooting. Units that shoot can subsequently be assaulted, whereas units that assault successfully can NOT subsequently be shot. If a unit can assault out of deep strike, it allows them the option to completely bypass enemy gunlines and go directly into their wheelhouse. Don't get me wrong, I play a succession of Deep Strike armies (4 of them!) and would love nothing more than to be able to do this, but I don't think it's balanced.

Well, I have a large BA army on my shelf.

What I'm expecting is a hard cover codex.

What I want is a playable army. The Imperial Knight might change the way a fast moving army like BA with lots of jump packers and fast tanks can be played.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

Overwatch and Interceptor shouldn't cancel out assault from deep strike completely as that would defeat the purpose, but they can soften it at times and at other times nullify it. My point though was that there are plenty of shooty units that can do a lot of damage right out of deep strike, so as Almighty Walrus already said why is it so frowned upon for an assault unit to do the same?

If they are given an even footing, assault is more powerful than shooting. Units that shoot can subsequently be assaulted, whereas units that assault successfully can NOT subsequently be shot. If a unit can assault out of deep strike, it allows them the option to completely bypass enemy gunlines and go directly into their wheelhouse. Don't get me wrong, I play a succession of Deep Strike armies (4 of them!) and would love nothing more than to be able to do this, but I don't think it's balanced.

What? Assault has historically been weaker except in third edition, I mean sure if given an even footing, but even then as it is shooting has been far stronger.

Because an army wide assault on turn 1 or 2 is pretty much the end of the game right there.

Most of the crazy drop and shoot units have one or more of the following limits.

1) there can be only one in the army
2) crazy expensive
3) only one shot with their killing weapons then they are just any other unit
4) easily killed in the subsequent opponents turn

Throwing down multiple units that will kill a unit (or more) each and potentially be immune to enemy shooting in the next turn (getting locked in combat has its advantages, I've had opponents declare against multiple of my units just so he could garuntee being in combat on my turn) without the chance for the opponent to manouvre or fire to avoid the threat is pretty huge.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Interceptor isn't as common as you'd think and to be honest, if I am going against Tau I'd rather face interceptor from a unit than it being able to shoot me wih all sorts of Markerlight buffs in its shooting phase.

Overwatch rarely does anything, of course there is the exception of the Tau massed overwatch, but there are still counters to that (hint, attack with multiple units at once).

And deep strike disorientation does apply to shooting, the unit counts as having moved, which restricts some weapons to snap shooting and others to not firing at all.

The thing is, once an assault starts, one or more units will die. Shooting can rarely match this level of finality between two units. Even with Tau I have to focus fire a large portion of my army on the target if I want it dead. Just a single unit of assault troops in my gunlines garuntees I'm going to be losing a least a unit a turn to it.

So which is more potent, an entire army killing a unit a turn or a single unit killing a unit a turn?

Overwatch and Interceptor shouldn't cancel out assault from deep strike completely as that would defeat the purpose, but they can soften it at times and at other times nullify it. My point though was that there are plenty of shooty units that can do a lot of damage right out of deep strike, so as Almighty Walrus already said why is it so frowned upon for an assault unit to do the same?

If they are given an even footing, assault is more powerful than shooting. Units that shoot can subsequently be assaulted, whereas units that assault successfully can NOT subsequently be shot. If a unit can assault out of deep strike, it allows them the option to completely bypass enemy gunlines and go directly into their wheelhouse. Don't get me wrong, I play a succession of Deep Strike armies (4 of them!) and would love nothing more than to be able to do this, but I don't think it's balanced.

And Taudar shooting gallery is so balanced. Maybe if Eldar ever were in threat of an unplanned CC, they would have more CC elements than jetseers. Then again, maybe not.

Jefffar wrote:
Because an army wide assault on turn 1 or 2 is pretty much the end of the game right there.

Most of the crazy drop and shoot units have one or more of the following limits.

1) there can be only one in the army
2) crazy expensive
3) only one shot with their killing weapons then they are just any other unit
4) easily killed in the subsequent opponents turn

Throwing down multiple units that will kill a unit (or more) each and potentially be immune to enemy shooting in the next turn (getting locked in combat has its advantages, I've had opponents declare against multiple of my units just so he could garuntee being in combat on my turn) without the chance for the opponent to manouvre or fire to avoid the threat is pretty huge.

Problem is that none of that actually appless for shooting, plenty of powerful ranged units are not only one, not crazy expensive, not one shot, and are not easily killable.

WS is far worse then BS, you still get to strike back against them in melee in most cases, they have the chance to become locked and forced against a weak unit and unable to attack next turn, and more reasons why shooting is generally better then assault.

Any way to get in CC by turn 2 would be great. I don't know, Assault vehicle?
Assault from DS or ability to deep strike at T1?

Jefffar wrote:
Because an army wide assault on turn 1 or 2 is pretty much the end of the game right there.

Most of the crazy drop and shoot units have one or more of the following limits.

1) there can be only one in the army
2) crazy expensive
3) only one shot with their killing weapons then they are just any other unit
4) easily killed in the subsequent opponents turn

Throwing down multiple units that will kill a unit (or more) each and potentially be immune to enemy shooting in the next turn (getting locked in combat has its advantages, I've had opponents declare against multiple of my units just so he could garuntee being in combat on my turn) without the chance for the opponent to manouvre or fire to avoid the threat is pretty huge.

I never suggested the whole army should have it, only certain units.

EDIT: Sternguard laugh at your first 3 points. Sure their combi-weapons are one shots, but their special ammunition is still excellent.

 Orblivion wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Because an army wide assault on turn 1 or 2 is pretty much the end of the game right there.

Most of the crazy drop and shoot units have one or more of the following limits.

1) there can be only one in the army
2) crazy expensive
3) only one shot with their killing weapons then they are just any other unit
4) easily killed in the subsequent opponents turn

Throwing down multiple units that will kill a unit (or more) each and potentially be immune to enemy shooting in the next turn (getting locked in combat has its advantages, I've had opponents declare against multiple of my units just so he could garuntee being in combat on my turn) without the chance for the opponent to manouvre or fire to avoid the threat is pretty huge.

I never suggested the whole army should have it, only certain units.

EDIT: Sternguard laugh at your first 3 points. Sure their combi-weapons are one shots, but their special ammunition is still excellent.

I use Sternguard laoded with Palsma and there is not much that can stand up to 10-20 Plasma Shots in one turn and then after that Wound on 2+ Ammo takes care most everything else after that.
My Second Sterngaurd is Loaded with Melta is about the same way.

 Jimsolo wrote:


If they are given an even footing, assault is more powerful than shooting. Units that shoot can subsequently be assaulted, whereas units that assault successfully can NOT subsequently be shot. If a unit can assault out of deep strike, it allows them the option to completely bypass enemy gunlines and go directly into their wheelhouse. Don't get me wrong, I play a succession of Deep Strike armies (4 of them!) and would love nothing more than to be able to do this, but I don't think it's balanced.

Errrrr... If by even footing you mean removing the 24+ inches of table between the two armies, then maybe. But last I checked, any given assault army still had to weather 2 turns of shooting and an overwatch before being able to do anything at all back. Deep strike changes this a little, but you also run the risk of mishaps.

No sane enemy commander would ever see a mostly-deepstrike enemy force and not make a big blob of guys with the least valuable on the outside.

Also a unit that assaults successfully can subsequently be shot! After they win and they stand around cheering for a round, they usually end up dead. It's especially prominent with tau, who are so outmatched in melee that they pretty much guarantee that the unit will be out in the open with a big target on their heads on your turn.
As opposed to say, a shooting marine army that could hold their ground and die on the wrong turn, letting the opponent immediately charge again.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Because an army wide assault on turn 1 or 2 is pretty much the end of the game right there.

Most of the crazy drop and shoot units have one or more of the following limits.

1) there can be only one in the army
2) crazy expensive
3) only one shot with their killing weapons then they are just any other unit
4) easily killed in the subsequent opponents turn

Throwing down multiple units that will kill a unit (or more) each and potentially be immune to enemy shooting in the next turn (getting locked in combat has its advantages, I've had opponents declare against multiple of my units just so he could garuntee being in combat on my turn) without the chance for the opponent to manouvre or fire to avoid the threat is pretty huge.

I never suggested the whole army should have it, only certain units.

EDIT: Sternguard laugh at your first 3 points. Sure their combi-weapons are one shots, but their special ammunition is still excellent.

I use Sternguard laoded with Palsma and there is not much that can stand up to 10-20 Plasma Shots in one turn and then after that Wound on 2+ Ammo takes care most everything else after that.
My Second Sterngaurd is Loaded with Melta is about the same way.

Yes, but the return fire should obliterate your Sternguard. That's not a fair trade 90% of the time.

 soomemafia wrote:
Any way to get in CC by turn 2 would be great. I don't know, Assault vehicle?
Assault from DS or ability to deep strike at T1?

You mean like:

I think a better method (and I said part of this earlier in a long list) is to allow units full of DoA jump packers to declare themselves part of the drop pod count during deployment. So if you have 3 JP assault squads and 2 sternguard pods, you could bring in 3 of those units turn 1.

Another interesting chapter strategy might be the ability to start rolling for reserves on turn 1, and auto-get turn 3, a round earlier than other armies.

from me on page 4?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Because an army wide assault on turn 1 or 2 is pretty much the end of the game right there.

Most of the crazy drop and shoot units have one or more of the following limits.

1) there can be only one in the army
2) crazy expensive
3) only one shot with their killing weapons then they are just any other unit
4) easily killed in the subsequent opponents turn

Throwing down multiple units that will kill a unit (or more) each and potentially be immune to enemy shooting in the next turn (getting locked in combat has its advantages, I've had opponents declare against multiple of my units just so he could garuntee being in combat on my turn) without the chance for the opponent to manouvre or fire to avoid the threat is pretty huge.

I never suggested the whole army should have it, only certain units.

EDIT: Sternguard laugh at your first 3 points. Sure their combi-weapons are one shots, but their special ammunition is still excellent.

I use Sternguard laoded with Palsma and there is not much that can stand up to 10-20 Plasma Shots in one turn and then after that Wound on 2+ Ammo takes care most everything else after that.
My Second Sterngaurd is Loaded with Melta is about the same way.

Yes, but the return fire should obliterate your Sternguard. That's not a fair trade 90% of the time.

But if it is not there it can not Retaliate.
If I do things right including Combat Squads it can eliminate 4 Units in one Shooting Phase out of Pods.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Sternguard alpha strike is not so strong that it wipes out all retaliation. The really good stuff is gonna be bubblewrapped.

Martel732 wrote:

Yes, but the return fire should obliterate your Sternguard. That's not a fair trade 90% of the time.

If I don't see a good trade for the sternguard, I just don't suicide them. I put em somewhere a bit safer and start firing in like +1 tactical marines. But out of everyone I play, NO ONE runs a 150+ model army, probably because they don't want to move all those models every round. All of them take at least one elite style unit or deathstar, and that's where the stern come in.

Also, point values aren't black and white on the board. Losing 300 of your 2k while he only lost 200 of his sounds like a bad trade on paper, but if that 200 was a unit that was particularly threatening to you, such as an ion riptide against jump marines, or leman russ punisher against your hormagaunt horde army, then it's still a good trade, because that unit was going to make far more than its own point value back for its owner, had it gotten to do stuff.
It could've also been strategically important or a force multiplier. EG a LRC for a crazy assault deathstar to get across the table, or venomthropes when your army has almost no ignores cover.

And those key models aren't bubble wrapped why again? If everyone plays like a fool, of course Sternguards look like gods.

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Sternguard alpha strike is not so strong that it wipes out all retaliation. The really good stuff is gonna be bubblewrapped.

What if you go for the 2nd best stuff, and land in a spot where terrain makes it hard for the rest of his army to retaliate? Yeah, it involves a mistake on the part of the defender, but its honestly not a crazy large mistake. There might be enough terrain in his deployment zone that it kind of messed up his deployment plans.

And those key models aren't bubble wrapped why again?

Some armies don't have enough wrap, some opponents think that their unit A is most important when you want unit B dead more, sometimes the combat squad ability lets a single unit of sterns wipe out the wrap, AND the unit they wanted to kill, and sometimes, they just fail the cover saves for intervening models. What can they do?

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Sternguard alpha strike is not so strong that it wipes out all retaliation. The really good stuff is gonna be bubblewrapped.

What if you go for the 2nd best stuff, and land in a spot where terrain makes it hard for the rest of his army to retaliate? Yeah, it involves a mistake on the part of the defender, but its honestly not a crazy large mistake. There might be enough terrain in his deployment zone that it kind of messed up his deployment plans.

Then you probably can't do much damage with your Sternguards. Defender wins. Needing to get within double tap range is their major achilles heel.

Martel732 wrote:

Then you probably can't do much damage with your Sternguards. Defender wins. Needing to get within double tap range is their major achilles heel.

do some damage, don't get retaliated against = he wins somehow?

You also seem to insist that every army I could ever play against has the spare points to have a 12" radius around each of their valuables filled with guys whose job is to stand around with picket signs that say "no drop pods." If it's any less than that, I'd be perfectly willing to risk 5+ intervening model cover if the target was juicy enough.

That's another advantage shooting has over assault. The shooter can force-feed the assaulter a unit, since he can't assault through it. The shooter can shoot at whatever he can see, even if he's seeing it between the legs, through a pair of fingers, past a cliff, through a window, off the backboard, nothin but net, with just an intervening model cover save. And hey, if you have ignore cover, or your shots weren't going to ignore their armor anyway, it's totally downside-free!

Also there's an edit above while you were posting.

Yeah, I know that shooting picks the target. Even with the absurdly costed BA, I can use terrain and my other models to keep my best stuff out of double tap range. If Sternguards can't double tap, they are not doing nearly enough damage to justify their cost.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay then. Let's get super serious: would you design this to survive Taudar firepower or not? If so, how do you do this with T4 models?

I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete.

This is fething genius. Give this man a medal.

As for what I want from 6th ed Codex: Blood Angels

1. Cheaper HQs and troops obviously. Everything else is high costed but somewhat makes sense. Might see some minor price reductions elsewhere but mostly I'd just like to not spend 60% of my points on mandatory things that suck.

More reason to take the things that BA is famous for

2. Make assault marines/DC better than just "marines with a sword that fly". Higher base initiative would be good due to the cascading casualty effect we see leading to victorious close combats in 40k

3. make our fliers more about air superiority and rapid redeployment of resources rather than confused gunship-transports

4. make our fast vehicles gain more on the battlefield for moving faster than our other marine brothers. I heard someone tossing around Jink and I think that's a great idea as well as somehow protecting their contents in someway if it's a transport (Rhinos and Razorbacks granting some kind of cover save to disembarking units would be cool)

And 5. Would be for new shinies. Preferably something with access to our new psychic table or something that flies. Maybe both? Maybe? Nah.

Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:
Any way to get in CC by turn 2 would be great. I don't know, Assault vehicle?
Assault from DS or ability to deep strike at T1?

You mean like:

I think a better method (and I said part of this earlier in a long list) is to allow units full of DoA jump packers to declare themselves part of the drop pod count during deployment. So if you have 3 JP assault squads and 2 sternguard pods, you could bring in 3 of those units turn 1.

Another interesting chapter strategy might be the ability to start rolling for reserves on turn 1, and auto-get turn 3, a round earlier than other armies.

from me on page 4?

Yeah, I saw that

Just wanted to point out that it's one possibility among the others.

 bocatt wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay then. Let's get super serious: would you design this to survive Taudar firepower or not? If so, how do you do this with T4 models?

I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete.

This is fething genius. Give this man a medal.

Yep, that's a new solution I've not seen before that'd be good. +1.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Go show me the huge volumes of S 6/7 in 3rd edition.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

I remeber my 2nd Ed Space Wolves packing like 3-7 of them every game though various means.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

I remeber my 2nd Ed Space Wolves packing like 3-7 of them every game though various means.

Yeah, and I remember CSM having even more than that in 2nd. I'm talking about 3rd, not 2nd. When they made non-SW non-CSM meqs playable.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

I remeber my 2nd Ed Space Wolves packing like 3-7 of them every game though various means.

Yeah, and I remember CSM having even more than that in 2nd. I'm talking about 3rd, not 2nd. When they made non-SW non-CSM meqs playable.

My point is that S6/7 was always avalible and in large numbers. Now it seems eveyone is taking them in large number.
Again somthing a New Codex: Blood Angels is not going to solve.

Being able to survive them better might be a solution.

Martel732 wrote:
Being able to survive them better might be a solution.

And what would be the salution?

The suggestion above where marines aren't wounded on "2's" would be a good thing. Granted, this would help all chapters, but meqs need it badly. Marines who want to hold firm and shoot back and also being vaporized by mass S6/7. It would also help BA getting across the board.

Martel732 wrote:
The suggestion above where marines aren't wounded on "2's" would be a good thing. Granted, this would help all chapters, but meqs need it badly. Marines who want to hold firm and shoot back and also being vaporized by mass S6/7. It would also help BA getting across the board.

I understand you pain on that.
GW is not going to NERF the Codex’s that are already out so get over that, please.

This Thread is about the Blood Angels and what would you like to be done with the Blood Angels, not what should be done with TauDar.

Okay then. Sanguinary priests hand out that rule to BA in addition to FNP. Forget FC. It sucks.

And this rule for Astartes is not a nerf on the other codices. They are still S6/7 for turning Rhinos into confetti.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay then. Sanguinary priests hand out that rule to BA in addition to FNP. Forget FC. It sucks.

And this rule for Astartes is not a nerf on the other codices. They are still S6/7 for turning Rhinos into confetti.

What Rule axactly, that Blood Angels can only be wounded on a 3+ when they have the Priest with them?

The one we're proposing in this very thread. From earlier:

"I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete."

Martel732 wrote:
The one we're proposing in this very thread. From earlier:

"I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete."

Intersting, I will have to think it over.

Of course, it would apply to all meqs to be fair. So you can see, I was not talking about nerfing other lists. Just making so marines are harder to wound-spam to death. Because as it stands now, Eldar don't need a single AP 2 or AP 3 weapon. They make us roll till we fail. Over and over.

Martel732 wrote:
Of course, it would apply to all meqs to be fair. So you can see, I was not talking about nerfing other lists. Just making so marines are harder to wound-spam to death. Because as it stands now, Eldar don't need a single AP 2 or AP 3 weapon. They make us roll till we fail. Over and over.

I could see adding the same limitations that would deny FNP.

No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

You are still getting hit by an Ant-Tank Round.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

You are still getting hit by an Ant-Tank Round.

And you're in armour as tough as a tank. Your point is?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

You are still getting hit by an Ant-Tank Round.

And you're in armour as tough as a tank. Your point is?

I hate getting into realism, but…
Assuming an Autocannon, S7 AP4, this is about 20mm-50mm in size, the Large Human Body can survive being hit by it, but not normally. A Marine should have about double that chance so having to be wounded on a 3+ is oddly enough quite reasonable. That and his Armor will stop it 2/3s of the time also oddly enough quite reasonable and FNP could even make that reasonable.
A Las-Cannon is going to leave a Bowling Ball Sized Hole in you and your armor if you are lucky.

Game Mechanics Wise, it seems to be a reasonable limit to the ability, otherwise you are surviving S10 Weapons orbit 2/3s of the time and nobody, but certain Special Characters with EW should be able to do that.

 Anpu42 wrote:

A Las-Cannon is going to leave a Bowling Ball Sized Hole in you and your armor if you are lucky.

And Marines can fight on despite such wounds.

 Anpu42 wrote:


Game Mechanics Wise, it seems to be a reasonable limit to the ability, otherwise you are surviving S10 Weapons orbit 2/3s of the time and nobody, but certain Special Characters with EW should be able to do that.

TBH Orbital Bombardments ought to be Str D anyway, it's just that the scale doesn't go above 10.

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

A Las-Cannon is going to leave a Bowling Ball Sized Hole in you and your armor if you are lucky.

And Marines can fight on despite such wounds.

 Anpu42 wrote:


Game Mechanics Wise, it seems to be a reasonable limit to the ability, otherwise you are surviving S10 Weapons orbit 2/3s of the time and nobody, but certain Special Characters with EW should be able to do that.

TBH Orbital Bombardments ought to be Str D anyway, it's just that the scale doesn't go above 10.

To be honest if we tried to go by fluff, the board game would be a riddle of a nightmare (and you'd have to roll who is the main character of the game )

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

A transport can only hold one unit though, if he's combat squaded, he counts as two units, so he shouldn't be able to ride both in the drop pod.

Jefffar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

A transport can only hold one unit though, i he's combat squaded, he counts as two units, so he shouldn't be able to ride both in the drop pod.

That's FAQd.

Fine you are looking at make Space Marines twice as effective at shrugging off wounds than anything in:
>Codex: Chaos Daemons
>Codex: Eldar [Including Wraith Knights]
>Codex: Necrons
>Codex: Tau
>Codex: Tyranid

Jefffar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

A transport can only hold one unit though, if he's combat squaded, he counts as two units, so he shouldn't be able to ride both in the drop pod.

Except combat squads have a specific exception to that.

He's doing it right.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's FAQd.

Why do I suddenly want to say 'CREEEED!!!' ?

well I've seen some Ideas in here I like that could actually be used. I think we all assume points drops are a given to actually happen....... hopefully....... unless something goes horribly wrong.

I will also state that I don't think its very likely at all that we will see assault out of deep strike (see tyranids) so with that in mind its better to think on ideas that make deep strike more survivable.

-Using JP's to move and to assault was a pretty good idea and would make BAs the fast moving units they should be.

Heres an Idea for you guys , how when arriving by deep strike DoA if a BA unit lands within x amount of inches of another unit it Stun/Knocks down the enemy unit and they can only fire snap shots on their next turn. This makes their precision Drops useful and allows you to survive a deep strike and also allows the opponent to fire at you and move away.

I will repeat that I think BA should have counter attack or similar special rule, a lot of the ideas on here just consist of making them better on the charge but if you don't make the charge or an opponent decides to charge you first and kill all your special rules (see DC with a chaplain as an example of the difference in power of getting the charge or being charged) then they are useless.

BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Fine you are looking at make Space Marines twice as effective at shrugging off wounds than anything in:
>Codex: Chaos Daemons
>Codex: Eldar [Including Wraith Knights]
>Codex: Necrons
>Codex: Tau
>Codex: Tyranid

Yep. That's the point.

 BlackArmour wrote:
well I've seen some Ideas in here I like that could actually be used. I think we all assume points drops are a given to actually happen....... hopefully....... unless something goes horribly wrong.

I will also state that I don't think its very likely at all that we will see assault out of deep strike (see tyranids) so with that in mind its better to think on ideas that make deep strike more survivable.

-Using JP's to move and to assault was a pretty good idea and would make BAs the fast moving units they should be.

Heres an Idea for you guys , how when arriving by deep strike DoA if a BA unit lands within x amount of inches of another unit it Stun/Knocks down the enemy unit and they can only fire snap shots on their next turn. This makes their precision Drops useful and allows you to survive a deep strike and also allows the opponent to fire at you and move away.

I will repeat that I think BA should have counter attack or similar special rule, a lot of the ideas on here just consist of making them better on the charge but if you don't make the charge or an opponent decides to charge you first and kill all your special rules (see DC with a chaplain as an example of the difference in power of getting the charge or being charged) then they are useless.

BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.

Maybe something like prefered enemy when Assualting or as I sugested earlyer, Rampage.
Though Death Company haveing WS5 would be good.

 BlackArmour wrote:


BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.

Templars are only WS4 and just as gakky at melee as everyone else, and that's in a 6th edition Codex. It's not boding too well.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Maybe something like prefered enemy when Assualting or as I sugested earlyer, Rampage.
Though Death Company haveing WS5 would be good.

DC are already WS5.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:
well I've seen some Ideas in here I like that could actually be used. I think we all assume points drops are a given to actually happen....... hopefully....... unless something goes horribly wrong.

I will also state that I don't think its very likely at all that we will see assault out of deep strike (see tyranids) so with that in mind its better to think on ideas that make deep strike more survivable.

-Using JP's to move and to assault was a pretty good idea and would make BAs the fast moving units they should be.

Heres an Idea for you guys , how when arriving by deep strike DoA if a BA unit lands within x amount of inches of another unit it Stun/Knocks down the enemy unit and they can only fire snap shots on their next turn. This makes their precision Drops useful and allows you to survive a deep strike and also allows the opponent to fire at you and move away.

I will repeat that I think BA should have counter attack or similar special rule, a lot of the ideas on here just consist of making them better on the charge but if you don't make the charge or an opponent decides to charge you first and kill all your special rules (see DC with a chaplain as an example of the difference in power of getting the charge or being charged) then they are useless.

BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.

Maybe something like prefered enemy when Assualting or as I sugested earlyer, Rampage.
Though Death Company haveing WS5 would be good.

DC already do and it makes a difference trust me


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:


BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.

Templars are only WS4 and just as gakky at melee as everyone else, and that's in a 6th edition Codex. It's not boding too well.

..........well......... crap......... you're right and I didn't think about that.

 BlackArmour wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:


BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.

Templars are only WS4 and just as gakky at melee as everyone else, and that's in a 6th edition Codex. It's not boding too well.

..........well......... crap......... you're right and I didn't think about that.

That said, just because we got stuck with the worst rules in 6th edition for portraying our army it doesn't follow that Blood Angels should be similarly gimped, but it's not looking too good. I WANT the Codex to work, because if nothing else I can jump ship from the horrible "melee" units of the Vanilla Codex, but I'm not holding my breath.

@BlackArmour: Raven Guard already have the move and assault rule for jump packs. I would hope Blood Angels would get it as well since it makes more sense for them, but GW might not want to give the same rule to two marine armies. We'll see I guess.

If DC keep their existing stats/rules and get the lowered jump pack cost I'll be happy enough to keep running my BA army. That and making DC Tycho able to join squads, at least DC themselves.

As far as the assault from deep strike is concerned, I thought of a way to work it in there without being crazy. There have been some other gripes about how Red Thirst is a pretty nonexistent rule without Astorath. What about falling to Red Thirst on a roll of 1 or 2, and making it so that if they deep strike they HAVE to assault the closest unit if possible? Considering how random Red Thirst is, it would make it pretty impossible to build a list around the idea of assaulting from deep strike, and it fits their fluff. They're suffering from a bloodlust, disoriented or not they're coming after you.

 Orblivion wrote:
@BlackArmour: Raven Guard already have the move and assault rule for jump packs. I would hope Blood Angels would get it as well since it makes more sense for them, but GW might not want to give the same rule to two marine armies. We'll see I guess.

If DC keep their existing stats/rules and get the lowered jump pack cost I'll be happy enough to keep running my BA army. That and making DC Tycho able to join squads, at least DC themselves.

As far as the assault from deep strike is concerned, I thought of a way to work it in there without being crazy. There have been some other gripes about how Red Thirst is a pretty nonexistent rule without Astorath. What about falling to Red Thirst on a roll of 1 or 2, and making it so that if they deep strike they HAVE to assault the closest unit if possible? Considering how random Red Thirst is, it would make it pretty impossible to build a list around the idea of assaulting from deep strike, and it fits their fluff. They're suffering from a bloodlust, disoriented or not they're coming after you.

That is an intresting idea

Mephiston needs an invulnerable save or needs Feel No Pain on a 4+. I agree with a points wide reduction, except Mephiston because I think 250 for him plus FNP is fair. More anti air support. Changes to Red Thirst and possibly the ability for Assault Marines to carry Boltguns. Gabriel Seth to have a 2+ save and Psycho Tycho to be an independent character. Dante to hit with his axe at initiative. Sanguinary Guard to have 2 wounds.

Murdius Maximus wrote:
Mephiston needs an invulnerable save or needs Feel No Pain on a 4+. I agree with a points wide reduction, except Mephiston because I think 250 for him plus FNP is fair. More anti air support. Changes to Red Thirst and possibly the ability for Assault Marines to carry Boltguns. Gabriel Seth to have a 2+ save and Psycho Tycho to be an independent character. Dante to hit with his axe at initiative. Sanguinary Guard to have 2 wounds.

-Mephiston needs a point reduction even if he gets FNP, compare him to Skarbrand and you'll see why.
-I expect the anti-air for Blood Angels will be a specialized Stormtalon with an emphasis on air superiority.
-I've said before that I think Dante should get the Spear of Telesto. Make it a straight up power lance that can be used as a flamer in the shooting phase. If you want to make it a little more special make it AP2 on the charge, AP3 normal.
-Sanguinary Guard I'd like to see have an upgrade option to add a Priest to them, this would make them a little bit less squishy. 2 wounds would be nice too though.
-I'd also like to see something done with Glaives, as it stands now its just a different name for power weapons. They don't really need to be more powerful, I just feel like they need something to stand out rather than just have a different name.

To be honest, apart from the addition of a yet to be determined new unit (that should be good, but may not be game breaking), I don't expect anything ground breaking from the new codex. The points costs will come down, and although that's not sexy, it IS a huge deal having more bodies on the table-top.

If the new Nids have shown us anything, it's that a drop in point values alone is worth quite a bit even if they copy/paste the rest of the codex. People may hate the fact that many of the Nids issues weren't addressed, but being able to field more MCs and gribblies is performing well despite the hatred.

Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

Fair, balanced, working army?

I think Tyranids have shown that it will take a lot to have a competitive assault-based army. I wouldn't worry at all about BA being too strong. None of the meq codices are even close to OP in the overall meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

If an army I played became powerful enough to easily compete with that OP brokenness, I would more than likely move on to another army. I, personally, do not enjoy easy win buttons, and have much more fun when things at least "appear" to be balanced.

Also, comparing everything to Taudar is a recipe for becoming a bitter, hate-filled gamer who sees no hope in the immediate future for this game. Sound about right, Martel?

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

If an army I played became powerful enough to easily compete with that OP brokenness, I would more than likely move on to another army. I, personally, do not enjoy easy win buttons, and have much more fun when things at least "appear" to be balanced.

Also, comparing everything to Taudar is a recipe for becoming a bitter, hate-filled gamer who sees no hope in the immediate future for this game. Sound about right, Martel?

Well, I'll give you the same response as the people who podcast over at 11th Company: they said they'll stop talking about Tau and Eldar when people stop playing them. I'll do the same. I use them as a standard because they ARE the standard, and many people use them. Citing them as OP or broken doesn't change the fact that they exist and have to be dealt with. Trying to say something is okay "except for Tau and Eldar" is like saying it is okay "except for the game in which they are played". To quote 11th company again, Tyranids are a great 5th edition list. I've moved from bitterness to acceptance. Because the Taudar ARE the game at the moment. Pretending otherwise is delusional.

I can't imagine the new Nids enjoy IG gun line much either, but many IG gunline players have moved to the superior Tau/Eldar gun lines.

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

If an army I played became powerful enough to easily compete with that OP brokenness, I would more than likely move on to another army. I, personally, do not enjoy easy win buttons, and have much more fun when things at least "appear" to be balanced.

Also, comparing everything to Taudar is a recipe for becoming a bitter, hate-filled gamer who sees no hope in the immediate future for this game. Sound about right, Martel?

Well, I'll give you the same response as the people who podcast over at 11th Company: they said they'll stop talking about Tau and Eldar when people stop playing them. I'll do the same. I use them as a standard because they ARE the standard, and many people use them. Citing them as OP or broken doesn't change the fact that they exist and have to be dealt with. Trying to say something is okay "except for Tau and Eldar" is like saying it is okay "except for the game in which they are played". To quote 11th company again, Tyranids are a great 5th edition list. I've moved from bitterness to acceptance. Because the Taudar ARE the game at the moment. Pretending otherwise is delusional.

I can't imagine the new Nids enjoy IG gun line much either, but many IG gunline players have moved to the superior Tau/Eldar gun lines.

Yes you are right, but you are not listening to what we are saying.
1] There is nothing that can be done with the Tau/Eldar Codex’s, that daemon has already been let out of the bottle.
2] That means the fix has to done with new Codex’s like the Blood Angels.
3] We need to stop whining about how good Tau/Eldar are and work on what We can Do About it.

So can we move on?

How about a special rule for the Sang. Priests? Something along the lines it matching what your opponents best Invuln save is? Bring a Slanesshi with a 2++ re-rollable ... BA gets FNP on a 2+ re-rollable.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

If an army I played became powerful enough to easily compete with that OP brokenness, I would more than likely move on to another army. I, personally, do not enjoy easy win buttons, and have much more fun when things at least "appear" to be balanced.

Also, comparing everything to Taudar is a recipe for becoming a bitter, hate-filled gamer who sees no hope in the immediate future for this game. Sound about right, Martel?

Well, I'll give you the same response as the people who podcast over at 11th Company: they said they'll stop talking about Tau and Eldar when people stop playing them. I'll do the same. I use them as a standard because they ARE the standard, and many people use them. Citing them as OP or broken doesn't change the fact that they exist and have to be dealt with. Trying to say something is okay "except for Tau and Eldar" is like saying it is okay "except for the game in which they are played". To quote 11th company again, Tyranids are a great 5th edition list. I've moved from bitterness to acceptance. Because the Taudar ARE the game at the moment. Pretending otherwise is delusional.

I can't imagine the new Nids enjoy IG gun line much either, but many IG gunline players have moved to the superior Tau/Eldar gun lines.

Yes you are right, but you are not listening to what we are saying.
1] There is nothing that can be done with the Tau/Eldar Codex’s, that daemon has already been let out of the bottle.
2] That means the fix has to done with new Codex’s like the Blood Angels.
3] We need to stop whining about how good Tau/Eldar are and work on what We can Do About it.

So can we move on?

There is no "move on". However, the postulated rule for all meqs above would at least address the problem to some extent. I don't think that will ever happen, though. But any list that gets the Tyranid treatment might as well pack it in for a big picture point of view.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

If an army I played became powerful enough to easily compete with that OP brokenness, I would more than likely move on to another army. I, personally, do not enjoy easy win buttons, and have much more fun when things at least "appear" to be balanced.

Also, comparing everything to Taudar is a recipe for becoming a bitter, hate-filled gamer who sees no hope in the immediate future for this game. Sound about right, Martel?

Well, I'll give you the same response as the people who podcast over at 11th Company: they said they'll stop talking about Tau and Eldar when people stop playing them. I'll do the same. I use them as a standard because they ARE the standard, and many people use them. Citing them as OP or broken doesn't change the fact that they exist and have to be dealt with. Trying to say something is okay "except for Tau and Eldar" is like saying it is okay "except for the game in which they are played". To quote 11th company again, Tyranids are a great 5th edition list. I've moved from bitterness to acceptance. Because the Taudar ARE the game at the moment. Pretending otherwise is delusional.

I can't imagine the new Nids enjoy IG gun line much either, but many IG gunline players have moved to the superior Tau/Eldar gun lines.

Yes you are right, but you are not listening to what we are saying.
1] There is nothing that can be done with the Tau/Eldar Codex’s, that daemon has already been let out of the bottle.
2] That means the fix has to done with new Codex’s like the Blood Angels.
3] We need to stop whining about how good Tau/Eldar are and work on what We can Do About it.

So can we move on?

There is no "move on". However, the postulated rule for all meqs above would at least address the problem to some extent. I don't think that will ever happen, though. But any list that gets the Tyranid treatment might as well pack it in for a big picture point of view.

What I mean by move on is not make EVERY REPLY about how it will be useless it will be against Tau/Eldar.
You have made a couple of good suggestions. However the next post it on how the Tau/Eldar are so OP.
Acknowledging a problem and coming up with an suggestion in not the same filling up half a thread with B*TCHING about the Tau/Eldar

Look. I play against a lot of Tau and Eldar. I'm happy for you that you don't, but I have to be realistic here. My standard HAS to be those lists, because that's what 50% of my games are against. The other 50% is the total field of other codices.

GW has created the quandry of how to take on Taudar without being TFG against every other list. Not that I think the BA are going to get even close to that kind of codex.

Martel732 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well until Taudar shoot your synapse off the table.

If an army I played became powerful enough to easily compete with that OP brokenness, I would more than likely move on to another army. I, personally, do not enjoy easy win buttons, and have much more fun when things at least "appear" to be balanced.

Also, comparing everything to Taudar is a recipe for becoming a bitter, hate-filled gamer who sees no hope in the immediate future for this game. Sound about right, Martel?

Well, I'll give you the same response as the people who podcast over at 11th Company: they said they'll stop talking about Tau and Eldar when people stop playing them. I'll do the same. I use them as a standard because they ARE the standard, and many people use them. Citing them as OP or broken doesn't change the fact that they exist and have to be dealt with. Trying to say something is okay "except for Tau and Eldar" is like saying it is okay "except for the game in which they are played". To quote 11th company again, Tyranids are a great 5th edition list. I've moved from bitterness to acceptance. Because the Taudar ARE the game at the moment. Pretending otherwise is delusional.

I can't imagine the new Nids enjoy IG gun line much either, but many IG gunline players have moved to the superior Tau/Eldar gun lines.

Bah, the 11th company has gone downhill as of late. They're so damn negative towards 40k they may as well be spearheading the movement for people to stop playing altogether. The only reason I listen to the 11th company is because it helps kill time at work and, hard as it may be to believe, there aren't enough 40k podcasts to fill the time.

Thankfully Forge the Narrative came around. They actually attack each army with the intent to figure out what works rather than casually dismiss everything because it isn't the most efficient hotness. If you want to hear uber-competitive peeps talk about the 40k hobby in a way that doesn't make you hate yourself for not playing Tau or Eldar, give them a listen...

I'm curious to hear what they say, but I can't argue with the math of the 11th company guys. I hope FtN aren't just GW apologists. My BA record against the new C:SM vs Tau or Eldar, to me, shows the huge gulf between the latest meq list and the top lists.

Martel732 wrote:
Look. I play against a lot of Tau and Eldar. I'm happy for you that you don't, but I have to be realistic here. My standard HAS to be those lists, because that's what 50% of my games are against. The other 50% is the total field of other codices.

GW has created the quandry of how to take on Taudar without being TFG against every other list. Not that I think the BA are going to get even close to that kind of codex.

Yes YOU have made that clear for YOU and your META, that does not mean every META is the same.
If they made the Codex: Blood Angels up to YOUR META it would be OP for everyone else not in YOUR type of META.

We are trying to make a balanced What If Codex for Every META. This will probably cause it to be weak in some META’s and Strong in other META’s.

To be fair, he's not alone. Several of my local meta players are disgruntled at the tau/eldar situation. Some of them are tau and/or eldar players, who now borrow armies of other races to play instead. They claim it's because they don't enjoy starting with a massive advantage and playing an opponent who isn't having fun.

Needless to say, my Blood Angels have been passed around amongst them like a drunken party girl.

niv-mizzet wrote:
To be fair, he's not alone. Several of my local meta players are disgruntled at the tau/eldar situation. Some of them are tau and/or eldar players, who now borrow armies of other races to play instead. They claim it's because they don't enjoy starting with a massive advantage and playing an opponent who isn't having fun.

Needless to say, my Blood Angels have been passed around amongst them like a drunken party girl.

We do that all of time with my Armies.

How are Taudar the standard when Pure Eldar armies or Eldar/Deldar are now filling the top 10s at tournaments.

heck with the LVO the highest Tau list was 11th with a nid list at 12

The Final 8 was
1. Eldar
2. SM/SM
3. Eldar/Deldar
4. Eldar
5. Eldar/Deldar
6. Necrons/CSM
7. Csm/CD
8. IG/INQ

Okay. It looks like Eldar are significantly more aggregious than Tau.

Because amusingly enough, Eldar is one of the best counters to Tau.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Because amusingly enough, Eldar is one of the best counters to Tau.

Right....... of course. Even Tau can't kill the WS fast enough I guess.

I'm glad to see that this Blood Angels thread is about how good Tau/Eldar/Taudar are...again.

Bloody boring, guys.

 tomjoad wrote:
I'm glad to see that this Blood Angels thread is about how good Tau/Eldar/Taudar are...again.

Bloody boring, guys.

I keep trying to keep it on track, but I keep getting sucked into it.

You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

How about starting you own "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered" Thread.
There are a bunch of who do not want to talk about how "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered".
We want to talk about all of special shiny's we want.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

How about starting you own "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered" Thread.
There are a bunch of who do not want to talk about how "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered".
We want to talk about all of special shiny's we want.

How are you gauging which shineys are fair and which are not?

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can't wishlist without setting some kind of bar.

Based off what C:SM and DA got, I think this is a bit of a moot issue. Yes, I know it's what we WANT, not GOING TO GET, but I can't even wishlist without feeling dirty because of Tau/Eldar.

How about starting you own "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered" Thread.
There are a bunch of who do not want to talk about how "My Army Suckes becouse the Eldar/Tau are so Over Powered".
We want to talk about all of special shiny's we want.

How are you gauging which shineys are fair and which are not?

For an MEQ Army, all of the other MEQ Armies mostly.
This is how GW measures the average army. I am not saying they are good at it, but this is something that can be compaired to.

Martel is evidently the resident Tau/eldar lobbyist.

Hardly. I'd gut those codices if I could, but GW opened that Pandora's Box, and they're not shutting it.

Martel732 wrote:
Hardly. I'd gut those codices if I could, but GW opened that Pandora's Box, and they're not shutting it.

So you want Space Woves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels to be brought up to Eldar/Tau Levels so we can be called TFG before our armies even come out of the case by everyone else.
OR
Do you want Space Woves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels to be ballanced with the other 14 Codexs?

Make sergeants into sanguinary priests (this used to be a combat doctrine, long ago for space marines).

Make said sanguinary priests give furious charge by default

Allow them to purchase the chalice that makes their squad have feel no pain.

Have these sergeants be WS5 like current priests.


Make death masks disallow overwatch when charging. Allow them to be purchased by sergeants or by chaplain characters. Come standard on Sanguinary guard

Give them a rule like Deathwing Assault, where some jump troops can arrive on turn 1.

Cheaper bikes and honor guard/honor guard options

Make chaplains a 1-3 Elite choice, that can be attached to squads but are not independent characters, like Wolf Guard. Maybe do the same with Priests if they don't implement the veteran sergeant priest idea.

Give a psychic power that allows charging after running for one unit, or maybe the caster's unit.

On topic because Tau drivel drives me crazy...
what about the ability to give all BA with jump packs hit and run?

 Spellbound wrote:
Make sergeants into sanguinary priests (this used to be a combat doctrine, long ago for space marines).

Make said sanguinary priests give furious charge by default

Allow them to purchase the chalice that makes their squad have feel no pain.

Have these sergeants be WS5 like current priests.


Make death masks disallow overwatch when charging. Allow them to be purchased by sergeants or by chaplain characters. Come standard on Sanguinary guard

Give them a rule like Deathwing Assault, where some jump troops can arrive on turn 1.

Cheaper bikes and honor guard/honor guard options

Make chaplains a 1-3 Elite choice, that can be attached to squads but are not independent characters, like Wolf Guard. Maybe do the same with Priests if they don't implement the veteran sergeant priest idea.

Give a psychic power that allows charging after running for one unit, or maybe the caster's unit.

Let me count the things I don't like....
None, I like all of those options with 1 Mod:
Give them a rule like Deathwing Assault, where some jump troops can arrive on turn 1 or 2.