Hey guys after so many races in the 40k universe , who you hate the most and give the reasons . I personally don't really like chaos space marine cause they are humans but they are really messed up
Tau. I loathe everything about this race. Nothing in it really fits in with the rest of the 40K universe. GW simply said "Let's find a way to shoehorn in some Japanese anime."
I like all the armies. The one I like least are the Tau, but I still like them a lot as a whole, but I think everything in 40k is cool and has it's place.
I wish there were more xenos and less focus on humanity though.
I'd hope that 7e downplays the Imperium and Chaos just a touch to give new focus the Xenos who make up the more interesting and lamentably untouched upon aspect of 40k.
I do not like Dark Angels. Their fluff doesn't feel heroic or very unique outside of their rules. Even with their wing rules, White scars do bike troops better, and GK do terminator troops better. Just a meh designed army overall.
The imperium or chaos idk which. Both are extremely boring (though daemons can on occasion be cool or good villains) and they're honestly overplayed. I'd love to see Eldar, Necrons, dark Eldar, and Orks receive more attention storywise. But gw just seems interested in shoving Marines roflstomping everyone's factions with bolter-porn.
necrons because of their new fluff it just seems that they are being overhyped as some "nobody can kill us but we kill everyone" fluff where wherever they wake up everyones just screwed its stupid. at least the tyranids have swarms so its kind of like a zombie apocalypse or alien typ of deal its interesting
I think all the races have a place, and I definately dont "hate" any, but probably grey knights. The old GK fluff was awesome, they were the awesome protectors of humanity but they had limits. They died horrible deaths in the face of overwhelming odds, but now theyre just all deus ex machina and godmode.
Also the new necron fluff is terrible compared the old one, and the tyranid fluff has really been toned down recently, neither race is the terrifying threat it used to be.
In regards to tau, I really "hate the hate" as it were. I think tau are a great race in 40k as they occupy a unique position of showing how evil all the other races are. In any other universe, the tau would be the "evil" faction, they approach you with promise of trade but when the time comes you have to join their empire. If youre lucky you'll join peacefully, if you're unlucky maybe not. Its actually quite a sinister idea that the "good guys" of the universe are only the good guys as long as you go along with what they say, and even that is a good alternative to living in the imperium. Also the whole "omg shoehorning anime" not really, they have mech suits, woop-de-do. They have smooth techy-but-practical aesthetic which presents a very alien feel compared to the human armies. (something the necrons and orks do not have) But look different enough to the eldar to be distinguishable as a seperate alien race. Alot of people hate on tau just because its the cool thing to do. I imagine if tau had been there since RT or 2nd Ed, and Necrons or eldar had been the new race, people would be hating on the "shoehorned metal egyptians" or "shoehorned elves"
Daemons are goofy. They'd be alot scarier if they were part of the background and never depicted in models or images...or maybe if they were something that were actually summoned by CSM, that would be cool, but not as a 40k army.
RileyJessup wrote: necrons because of their new fluff it just seems that they are being overhyped as some "nobody can kill us but we kill everyone" fluff where wherever they wake up everyones just screwed its stupid. at least the tyranids have swarms so its kind of like a zombie apocalypse or alien typ of deal its interesting
I don't hate any of them, but I feel like Daemons shouldn't be a separate army from Chaos, but this probably because I played Chaos back in 2e where it was all one big army. Same with Fantasy Chaos at the time as well. Had Beastmen, Chaos Knights, and Bloodletters all working together hand in hand, toward a common goal of SLASH AND BURN.
Dislike: Necrons (old and new fluff are both equally awful), Tau (the gundam faction when everything else is gothic/grim), SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say), Daemons (roll them back into Chaos), Gray Knights (I preferred when they were represented by a squad attached to another Imperial army, rather than a standalone)
I must admit I am tired of seeing marine subfactions everywhere (and they are my main army). I would like to see more xenos.
I do think we could do with more minor xenos getting the spotlight and perhaps just tone down the marinefest a little.
Just a little.
Personally something along the lines of how the Scythians were able to kill the Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists would be cool. We have what happened here and it's kinda told but some stories like this and how the lesser known races have actually pulled off some crackers would be appreciated.
I must admit I am tired of seeing marine subfactions everywhere (and they are my main army). I would like to see more xenos.
I do think we could do with more minor xenos getting the spotlight and perhaps just tone down the marinefest a little.
Just a little.
Personally something along the lines of how the Scythians were able to kill the Chapter Master of the Crimson Fists would be cool. We have what happened here and it's kinda told but some stories like this and how the lesser known races have actually pulled off some crackers would be appreciated.
Give me more on the Bhargesi as well please!
I'd really like to know what makes the Barghesi so scary that the Imperium puts multiple chapters at their doorstep just for keeping them in place and keep them away from the Tyranids at all costs.
I'd really like to know what makes the Barghesi so scary that the Imperium puts multiple chapters just to keeping them in place and keep them away from the Tyranids at all costs.
Indeed
A race described as 'Hyper Violent' needs more info! What can be so violent about them when 40k in general is pretty violent. Their young come out kick boxing each other when they are born?
GK. I have no problem with any other army, and pre Ward I loved the GK. The small number of very slightly better than your standard SM fighting against an unbeatable force with the best will they can made sense and was interesting and exciting. Ward made them everywhere and made them far too strong.
Steve steveson wrote: GK. I have no problem with any other army, and pre Ward I loved the GK. The small number of very slightly better than your standard SM fighting against an unbeatable force with the best will they can made sense and was interesting and exciting. Ward made them everywhere and made them far too strong.
And he reduced their numbers...which makes no sense.
Before they had at least 3000 brothers at arms.
But now they only have 1000 because DA CODEX ASSTARTEEZ.
If I let myself think about it, I get a bit perturbed that all the Xenos, with the possible exception of Tyrranids, are really just humans made to look a little different. Most sci-fi movies and TV are the same way. Neil DeGrasse Tyson brings this up all the time.
I guess few people want to watch a movie where the main characters aren't humanish, and maybe there are few 40k players who would want to build and play an army that isnt humanish.
Steve steveson wrote: GK. I have no problem with any other army, and pre Ward I loved the GK. The small number of very slightly better than your standard SM fighting against an unbeatable force with the best will they can made sense and was interesting and exciting. Ward made them everywhere and made them far too strong.
And he reduced their numbers...which makes no sense.
Before they had at least 3000 brothers at arms.
But now they only have 1000 because DA CODEX ASSTARTEEZ.
Meh.
After all this time, my mind automatically adds a zero to that "size of a chapter" thing.
Steve steveson wrote: GK. I have no problem with any other army, and pre Ward I loved the GK. The small number of very slightly better than your standard SM fighting against an unbeatable force with the best will they can made sense and was interesting and exciting. Ward made them everywhere and made them far too strong.
And he reduced their numbers...which makes no sense.
Before they had at least 3000 brothers at arms.
But now they only have 1000 because DA CODEX ASSTARTEEZ.
Meh.
After all this time, my mind automatically adds a zero to that "size of a chapter" thing.
I personally prefer the interpretation of at least a billion (usually one trillion, one million chapters of a million each) Astartes to go around, ten times that in Sororitas, even more in Scions, and Quadrillions of Guardsmen.
SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say),
Wat?
The SoB go all the way back to Rogue Trader.
^This.
And they were taken from Dune (together with Navigators, the lack of intelligent machines and the God Emperor). People get the impression Sisters are female-marines because, well, they haven´t read their background. They are, literally, from different universes.
Steve steveson wrote: GK. I have no problem with any other army, and pre Ward I loved the GK. The small number of very slightly better than your standard SM fighting against an unbeatable force with the best will they can made sense and was interesting and exciting. Ward made them everywhere and made them far too strong.
And he reduced their numbers...which makes no sense.
Before they had at least 3000 brothers at arms.
But now they only have 1000 because DA CODEX ASSTARTEEZ.
Meh.
After all this time, my mind automatically adds a zero to that "size of a chapter" thing.
I personally prefer the interpretation of at least a billion (usually one trillion, one million chapters of a million each) Astartes to go around, ten times that in Sororitas, even more in Scions, and Quadrillions of Guardsmen.
Keeping on the "elite" thing, a million sounds too bold for me. And 10000 somehow fits the Legions breaking up. If a 100000 thing gets broken in 4 pieces after a great war, 10000 seems fine. 1000 seems too low.
Sure, 10000 marines could barely do anything given the scale of the Imperium, but then again they do highly specialized operations and they are there mostly to serve as living propaganda.
I also imagine the Sisters and Stormtroopers at the same level. And they are all ultra-elite units.
The force doing the work is the IG, and its size defies imagination. And don´t forget the humble pdf.
In my redesigned 40k (redesigned from the perspective of an actual military man who knows enough science to make vaguely plausible sounding technobabble), the legions were tens of billions strong, a lynchpin for the wider imperium. So millions is still very much broken up into bite sized pieces.
MarsNZ wrote: SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say)
Their origins aside, what's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.
MarsNZ wrote: SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say)
What's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.
I'm not sure if arguing with sexists is the best thing to do. Especially when they're wrong about an Army's origins.
I think the Tau are best explained by my good friends Quark and Garrick
[Garak takes a drink of root beer]
Quark: What do you think?
Elim Garak: It's vile.
Quark: I know. It's so bubbly and cloying and happy.
Elim Garak: Just like the Tau.
Quark: And you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to like it.
Elim Garak: It's insidious.
Quark: Just like the Tau.
My least favourite, both in terms of fluff, and how they play, are the Tyranids.
Fluff-wise, a galaxy-transcending superrace that simply devours everything in its path just doesn't do a lot of for me.
What's more, if they're a threat to everyone else, they should've been destroyed by now. It's not like all the other races don't make tentative alliances when under greater threat.
Gameplay-wise, I think they've been given too many ridiculously good shooty units for what should play as an assault army. It irks me that carnifexes and hive tyants are used as gun platforms. Bugs running around with smaller bugs that shoot out even smaller bugs as ammunition...
They're also the one army that's hard to place into any sort of group game. Most of the xenos races can be placed with some degree of buy-in, in alliances with one side or another of a larger game. Tyranids are just out of place, like, why are they there. You can't explain why they've sided with the imperium, or the orks, or chaos. They're just more hungry to eat those guys than these guys.
Redbeard wrote: My least favourite, both in terms of fluff, and how they play, are the Tyranids.
Fluff-wise, a galaxy-transcending superrace that simply devours everything in its path just doesn't do a lot of for me.
What's more, if they're a threat to everyone else, they should've been destroyed by now. It's not like all the other races don't make tentative alliances when under greater threat.
Gameplay-wise, I think they've been given too many ridiculously good shooty units for what should play as an assault army. It irks me that carnifexes and hive tyants are used as gun platforms. Bugs running around with smaller bugs that shoot out even smaller bugs as ammunition...
They're also the one army that's hard to place into any sort of group game. Most of the xenos races can be placed with some degree of buy-in, in alliances with one side or another of a larger game. Tyranids are just out of place, like, why are they there. You can't explain why they've sided with the imperium, or the orks, or chaos. They're just more hungry to eat those guys than these guys.
They're powerful enough to stand against all the factions, perhaps even win too. The fluff is explicit in that the galaxy either unites or dies. It is also explicit that the Orks can kill everyone, that the Necrons can kill everyone, that Chaos can kill everyone, the Eldar will kill everyone when Ynnead is good and ready, the Tau will kill everyone if allowed to advance, the Imperium will kill everyone when the Primarchs and Emperor return, and your dog will kill everyone when he eats your rulebook.
Gameplay wise: Dakkafexes are good yes, but Lootas are better, as are Dakkajets, just to name ork units.
MarsNZ wrote: SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say)
What's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.
I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting? Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before. Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily. Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat. "Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific? But yeah, keep jumping to conclusions like the following:
I'm not sure if arguing with sexists is the best thing to do. Especially when they're wrong about an Army's origins.
MarsNZ wrote: SoB (equal opportunities bought them here, PC gone mad I say)
What's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.
I'm not sure if arguing with sexists is the best thing to do. Especially when they're wrong about an Army's origins.
An amazing number of the youngest players see Sisters as female (and thus "logically" weaker in all senses) Space Marines.
I don´t think it is their fault. Look at the current state of both armies and imagine how it looks for a new player who does not know much of the background or of the history of the game: the Sisters look as an afterthought made in the name of political correctness. No more and no less. And they will stay there until a proper Codex is released.
The fact that this is not a top priority in GW speaks volumes about how far have they strayed from reality. In its current iteration the setting, unless you really delve into it, reeks of sexism (and racism, and other things). And that´s bad, for many important reasons.
Redbeard wrote: (...) It's not like all the other races don't make tentative alliances when under greater threat.(...)
Until quite recently, they sort of didn´t. The enemy of my enemy was still a zombie robot working for a vampire god, a psychotic monster that enjoy and even reproduce through brutality, a traitor that will never be redeemed, a demon or just a dirty xeno that must die at all costs. And the Imperium was utterly brutal and xenophobic to stupid levels, starting with the marines.
Don´t you remember the reactions to the Necron & BA affair? What about the turning of all Marines into "Reasonable Marines"?
I'm sure the sisters would look less like an afterthought if they weren't an afterthought. Heck, even when they were initially there, it was probably just an afterthought that was only tacked on there because Dune had them. It took a guy at GW who actually cared about them as an army to give them any status whatsoever and that didn't really last very long, and that guy felt bad for them when he left GW cause in his words, no one else there really cared about them.
Admittingly, I could have my facts wrong but that's what I remembered.
In this regards, they weren't shoehorned into the setting because they're female. They were shoehorned in because Dune had them. And to this day they're still mostly an afterthought. Far as I can tell, anyways.
I'd like to say they have potential, but honestly what fluff exists for them (IE, their really really REALLY strict and regulated upbringing) really only allows a minor amount of customization compared to the sheer variety of space marine chapters, chaos followers, necron dynasties, and whatever else. As I've stated before, they don't even get separate haircuts.
MarsNZ wrote:
What other faction is that gender specific?
Every variety and flavor of Space Marines.
Which was also a pretty dumb move, IMHO. In this case, two wrongs don't make a right.
(more than two wrongs when you consider the lack of female models or characters in the Imperial Guard. Or Inquisitor female models. Or... any female models besides Eldar and scantily clad Dark Eldar)
I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting?
They were not an implementation of "female army in space". They were taken from another setting, Dune, together with the God Emperor, the Navigators and more stuff. They were the "zealot" part of the setting, worshipping the God Emperor. At the time, Marines were normal human ex-convicts, brain-washed into killing machines to serve an Emperor they didn´t see as a god.
Eventually, Marines and other armies got stuff from the Sisters so now Sisters seem lacking a distinctive theme.
Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before.
Bingo! We didn´t have those before. You keep talking as if the Sisters were new. They are from the first edition.
Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily. Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat.
Faith as a weapon. The Emperor as a true god. Miracles and saints dark age - style. Angels. Joan of Arc. The Exorcist tank and the Penitent Engine are examples of how unique the look of the army is.
Stuff that is no longer only applied to them: Cleansing fire & burning heretics. Conducting purity searches throughout the Imperium. Christian and medieval iconography. The "gothic" feeling in the setting.
"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?
Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...
As I said, I don´t think you are sexist, but I do believe you are jumping to conclussions regarding the Sisters. They brought a lot of things to the setting when they were introduced, long time ago. They just haven´t been properly updated. And they look awful and unappealing right now, that´s for sure.
I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting?
They were not an implementation of "female army in space". They were taken from another setting, Dune, together with the God Emperor, the Navigators and more stuff. They were the "zealot" part of the setting, worshipping the God Emperor. At the time, Marines were normal human ex-convicts, brain-washed into killing machines to serve an Emperor they didn´t see as a god.
Eventually, Marines and other armies got stuff from the Sisters so now Sisters seem lacking a distinctive theme.
One major problem is that as marines (and every faction, really) expanded to give the players more customization options, sisters... didn't. The only other faction to remain so one-dimensional is Tyrannids, and in that case it's at least VERY clearly on purpose to represent their original alien nature.
Today we have religious marines, reasonable marines, ass hole marines, mechanicum marines, stealthy marines, shark marines, dying marines, morbid marines, marines created at the request of chapter masters, mutant marines, wolf Viking marines, vampire marines, secretive marines, etc etc etc.
And then we have... sisters.
The same applies to pretty much every army besides Tyrannids. Even Necrons had their fluff changed to make them more expansive. Sisters... didn't.
"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?
Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...
Commissars: There was a female model. But it was a special event model. This is stupid. Two wrongs do not make a right. (though more female commissars, as well as female everything, exists in Only War. Once again GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does)
Imperial Knights: There's a female ronin in the novel. But it was just a novel and identified as a special case. Most fans hate this all-male knight aspect. Three wrongs do not make a right. Once again, GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does.
Space Marines: There was a.... wait, nevermind. At any rate, I went over this above. Fifty wrongs do not make a right.
Forge world even had a female necron. Once again, GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does.
I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart (zing). I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all. Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people. What exaclty do they bring to the setting?
They were not an implementation of "female army in space". They were taken from another setting, Dune, together with the God Emperor, the Navigators and more stuff. They were the "zealot" part of the setting, worshipping the God Emperor. At the time, Marines were normal human ex-convicts, brain-washed into killing machines to serve an Emperor they didn´t see as a god.
Eventually, Marines and other armies got stuff from the Sisters so now Sisters seem lacking a distinctive theme.
Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before.
Bingo! We didn´t have those before. You keep talking as if the Sisters were new. They are from the first edition.
Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily. Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat.
Faith as a weapon. The Emperor as a true god. Miracles and saints dark age - style. Angels. Joan of Arc. The Exorcist tank and the Penitent Engine are examples of how unique the look of the army is.
Stuff that is no longer only applied to them: Cleansing fire & burning heretics. Conducting purity searches throughout the Imperium. Christian and medieval iconography. The "gothic" feeling in the setting.
"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?
Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...
As I said, I don´t think you are sexist, but I do believe you are jumping to conclussions regarding the Sisters. They brought a lot of things to the setting when they were introduced, long time ago. They just haven´t been properly updated. And they look awful and unappealing right now, that´s for sure.
Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?
Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?
Lame.
Did they really do that? Again, even Only War has them. If GW went out of their way to state they were all-male in the latest guard codex, then that's just... lame.
....well, even if the Sisters of Battle weren't shoehorned in because they're female (again, I believe they were shoehorned in because of Dune), GW is clearly sexist.
"Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?
Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
I am pretty sure I am missing some...
Commissars: There was a female model. But it was a special event model. This is stupid. Two wrongs do not make a right. (though more female commissars, as well as female everything, exists in Only War. Once again GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does)
Imperial Knights: There's a female model in the novel. But it was just a novel and identified as a special case. Most fans hate this all-male knight aspect. Three wrongs do not make a right. Once again, GW's subsidiaries do things better than GW does.
Space Marines: There was a.... wait, nevermind. At any rate, I went over this above. Fifty wrongs do not make a right.
Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?
Lame.
Did they really do that? Again, even Only War has them. If GW went out of their way to state they were all-male in the latest guard codex, then that's just... lame.
....well, even if the Sisters of Battle weren't shoehorned in because they're female (again, I believe they were shoehorned in because of Dune), GW is clearly sexist.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only sausages.
Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.
Do they really say Horus is the true Emperor? I thought they only said Emps was the false Emperor, with no mention of Horus. A lot of Chaos Marines stopped being loyal to Horus even DURING the Heresy (Night Lords never really cared about him, Angron hated him, Emperoro's Children stopped caring about him, the Alpha Legion got Horus pissed off and when he yelled at them, Alpharus basically THREATENED him and gave him the finger, etc)
And then after the Heresy Abaddon slapped around a lot of the remaining Horus lovers and destroyed the body, and then changed the name of the Legion so there'd be no more Horus in the name. Then proclaimed Horus was a fool.
Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.
Do they really say Horus is the true Emperor? I thought they only said Emps was the false Emperor, with no mention of Horus. A lot of Chaos Marines stopped being loyal to Horus even DURING the Heresy (Night Lords never really cared about him, Angron hated him, Emperoro's Children stopped caring about him, the Alpha Legion got Horus pissed off and when he yelled at them, Alpharus basically THREATENED him and gave him the finger, etc)
And then after the Heresy Abaddon slapped around a lot of the remaining Horus lovers and destroyed the body, and then changed the name of the Legion so there'd be no more Horus in the name. Then proclaimed Horus was a fool.
Nope, I asked GW staff who CSM thought the true emperor was and they said it was Horus.
Nope, I asked GW staff who CSM thought the true emperor was and they said it was Horus.
Who they thought the true Emperor WAS, maybe? The past tense, if that's what the GW employee used, could mean they accept their true emperor is dead.
....that's still nonsense though (or more accurately, only "canonically" applies to a small minority, which the Black Legion supplement makes somewhat clear). Again, most Chaos Space Marines clearly don't give a gak anymore about Horus (or never did in the first place)
MarsNZ wrote: I think it's a poor way to implement the 'all female army in space' is all.
I think it's better than just having some "token female faction". As they are, the Sisters fit in nicely with the Imperium.
MarsNZ wrote: Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.
The "boobplate" serves a purpose beyond that. It also fits with the aesthetic of the army, which is heavily high gothic looking.
MarsNZ wrote: What exaclty do they bring to the setting?
Showing off the Imperium's zeal, being an elite army of normal humans, being an army that's powered by the strength of their faith, a unique aesthetic, more female representation.
MarsNZ wrote: Ravenous zealots? Oh yeah we didn't have those before.
The Sisters exemplify it it better than anyone else. They serve take show off the heights of the Imperium's zealotry, and distill all of it into a playable army.
MarsNZ wrote: Weird organ tanks? I guess so, but iGuard could have had those just as easily.
Eh, I disagree. They don't fit with the IG aesthetic so well. Guard tanks are more spartan and to the point.
MarsNZ wrote: Um, fleur-de-lys, sure, Bretonnia in space. Neat.
Sharing a symbol doesn't really make them "Bretonia in space".
MarsNZ wrote: "Not defined by Gender? Their name is SISTERS OF BATTLE. What other faction is that gender specific?
Right, but that's not what's really important about the army, it isn't their core characteristic. What's important is their zeal. Their gender doesn't have a major influence on theirn characterisation or fluff (other than their famous loopholery, of course).
We don't look at Space Marine Battle Brothers or Ork bitz and think "oh, the most important thing about these things is that they are men (or a manly fungus in the Ork's case).
TiamatRoar wrote: One major problem is that as marines (and every faction, really) expanded to give the players more customization options, sisters... didn't. The only other faction to remain so one-dimensional is Tyrannids, and in that case it's at least VERY clearly on purpose to represent their original alien nature.
Today we have religious marines, reasonable marines, ass hole marines, mechanicum marines, stealthy marines, shark marines, dying marines, morbid marines, marines created at the request of chapter masters, mutant marines, wolf Viking marines, vampire marines, secretive marines, etc etc etc.
And then we have... sisters.
The same applies to pretty much every army besides Tyrannids. Even Necrons had their fluff changed to make them more expansive. Sisters... didn't.
I think that might be more by design than you're giving it credit for. The point of Sisters is that they are these very zealous, fanatical warriors. If you take that aspect away, then they're not really Sisters anymore. Other armies don't get affected by it, since they're representative of entire empires or races. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a tighter focus in that they're the holy warriors of the Imperial church. On a related note, the Sisters aren't the only army to have such a tight focus. The GK and SW are really even more specific, as they're single Chapters with very defined fluff that do not have successors.
I think that there'd be some room for expansion with the Sisters, when they (hopefully) recieve further fluff development. Their Major Orders already have some distinct personalities, and that could be developed further. Similarly, Minor Orders are an avenue for new forces.
TiamatRoar wrote: One major problem is that as marines (and every faction, really) expanded to give the players more customization options, sisters... didn't. The only other faction to remain so one-dimensional is Tyrannids, and in that case it's at least VERY clearly on purpose to represent their original alien nature.
Today we have religious marines, reasonable marines, ass hole marines, mechanicum marines, stealthy marines, shark marines, dying marines, morbid marines, marines created at the request of chapter masters, mutant marines, wolf Viking marines, vampire marines, secretive marines, etc etc etc.
And then we have... sisters.
The same applies to pretty much every army besides Tyrannids. Even Necrons had their fluff changed to make them more expansive. Sisters... didn't.
I think that might be more by design than you're giving it credit for. The point of Sisters is that they are these very zealous, fanatical warriors. If you take that aspect away, then they're not really Sisters anymore. Other armies don't get affected by it, since they're representative of entire empires or races. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a tighter focus in that they're the holy warriors of the Imperial church. On a related note, the Sisters aren't the only army to have such a tight focus. The GK and SW are really even more specific, as they're single Chapters with very defined fluff that do not have successors.
You see, that's the thing. The sisters are one-dimensional by design. But originally, so were the Space Marines and the Necrons. The Design CHANGED for the Space Marines and the Necrons, but it didn't for the sisters. As long as the sisters' original design remains in place like that, they'll always be extremely narrow in focus. I suppose that might be what lots of people want, and certainly many will throw a fit if it gets changed (like Necrons) but in the end, it will always restrict them and make it very difficult to expand them in various ways. It's not an insurmountable obstacle (be it changing their design or keeping the design and finding ways to expand them in spite of it), but either option is a difficult hurdle to overcome.
Some thoughts about "hating factions" and the line "I knew someone would jump in with their bleeding heart " part. There are still a lot of Sister players and we are prone to jump if the army is attacked. I think it is caused by the fear of seeing the army going the route of other armies, now disappeared. Like the Lost and the Damned or the Zoats. Or my first army, Flesh Eaters.
I think the reason I am unable to hate any race is because I have seen the least popular races being discontinued. And with the races go the players that play them.
The race I hated the most was the Squats. And I felt really sad when they were scratched off, because I lost some players because of it. They stopped playing because their favorite race was... squatted.
Not fun.
Thus, I turned my hate against a specific faction (I am not giving the name) into love of seeing them utterly destroyed.
On the Commissars being all male, it predates 6th (my mistake). This is from pg 33 second edition Codex: SoB:
By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena wiII end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum.
I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.
Female Commissars should exist.
Troike wrote: (...)
I think that might be more by design than you're giving it credit for. The point of Sisters is that they are these very zealous, fanatical warriors. If you take that aspect away, then they're not really Sisters anymore. Other armies don't get affected by it, since they're representative of entire empires or races. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a tighter focus in that they're the holy warriors of the Imperial church. On a related note, the Sisters aren't the only army to have such a tight focus. The GK and SW are really even more specific, as they're single Chapters with very defined fluff that do not have successors.
I am with TiamatRoar: if they have not been developed is because nobody in the Studio cared, not because they have a distinctive theme.
And GK and SW are not good examples: they are subfactions. They are marines. They both are developments from a common origin: the Rogue Trader marine.
I think that there'd be some room for expansion with the Sisters, when they (hopefully) recieve further fluff development. Their Major Orders already have some distinct personalities, and that could be developed further. Similarly, Minor Orders are an avenue for new forces.
I really hope they do.
There are lots of room for expansion if you start searching for stuff related with their theme. And the "gothic" look is full of possibilities.
Emp destroyed Horus's soul and yet CSM say the emperor is false and Horus is the true emperor despite his deadness.
Do they really say Horus is the true Emperor? I thought they only said Emps was the false Emperor, with no mention of Horus. A lot of Chaos Marines stopped being loyal to Horus even DURING the Heresy (Night Lords never really cared about him, Angron hated him, Emperoro's Children stopped caring about him, the Alpha Legion got Horus pissed off and when he yelled at them, Alpharus basically THREATENED him and gave him the finger, etc)
And then after the Heresy Abaddon slapped around a lot of the remaining Horus lovers and destroyed the body, and then changed the name of the Legion so there'd be no more Horus in the name. Then proclaimed Horus was a fool.
Nope, I asked GW staff who CSM thought the true emperor was and they said it was Horus.
Yeah, I am not buying individual staff members' views on this unless you find the actual writers.
The 'False Emperor' was more due to them thinking he was False as a person and leader overall, not that Horus was magically the true Emperor.
Yeah, whatever. I'm not a newb, I'm just willing to accept that the story is actually better with ancient robotic dynasties with their own internal feuds than the ridiculous necron backstory from 3rd.
...And the Imperium was utterly brutal and xenophobic to stupid levels, starting with the marines.
Here's the thing about extreme xenophobia - it doesn't survive first contact. That's why you have an inquisition running around needing to punish anyone who talks to aliens (and only aliens we don't like, and don't need, because remember, Rogue Traders are allowed to treat with the filthy xenos, and we have jokaero running around with the inquisitors too).
da001 wrote:
Comissars -> Male since 6th. One of many minor changes people do not notice.
Imperial Knights -> All drivers are male. Since 6th. Another change.
Space Marines -> All male since second I think. I had some references to female marines but was never able to trace the source. This is a tricky one, because half the factions are marines, one way or another.
The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.
TiamatRoar wrote: You see, that's the thing. The sisters are one-dimensional by design. But originally, so were the Space Marines and the Necrons. The Design CHANGED for the Space Marines and the Necrons, but it didn't for the sisters. As long as the sisters' original design remains in place like that, they'll always be extremely narrow in focus. I suppose that might be what lots of people want, and certainly many will throw a fit if it gets changed (like Necrons) but in the end, it will always restrict them and make it very difficult to expand them in various ways. It's not an insurmountable obstacle (be it changing their design or keeping the design and finding ways to expand them in spite of it), but either option is a difficult hurdle to overcome.
Well, again, other armies have that sort of tight focus too. When you buy a SW codex, you're only getting fluff about one Space Marine Chapter, after all. Same for the GK (Inquisition aside). So it's not like the Sisters are alone in that regard. The Sisters even have an advantage in that regard, seeing as they have six distinct Major Orders as well as the concept of Minor Orders in there.
Anyway, personally I'd prefer them to not change too much from what they are now, definetely want them to stick to that central theme of extreme zealotry. I think the way forward in this regard without comprising that would be to have Orders fleshed out a bit more, so those differences in temperment, creed and tactics become more apparent. Minor Orders could also be expanded upon to assist with that.
Oh, also, I should note that the Ecclesiarchy are of course in there too. They could be an interesting avenue for expansion to help add some variety to the SoB army.
GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.
On the Commissars being all male, it predates 6th (my mistake). This is from pg 33 second edition Codex: SoB:
By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena wiII end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum.
I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.
Female Commissars should exist.
So basically instead of GW becoming more sexist by making commissars male-only, they always were sexist because commisars were always male-only. ......well, that doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, I imagine.
....despite an official GW female commissar model existing (but being limited)
Only War basically spat on that, but like I said, it's just yet another case of a subsidiary doing things better than GW did.
TiamatRoar wrote: GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.
On the Commissars being all male, it predates 6th (my mistake). This is from pg 33 second edition Codex: SoB:
By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organisations. Most of the Progena wiII end up in the Adeptus Terra as scribes, clerks or overseers. However, a few will be assigned to higher positions. Male Progena may become Commissars in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood itself and become a Preacher or Dean (a subordinate to a Deacon). Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum.
I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.
Female Commissars should exist.
So basically instead of GW becoming more sexist by making commissars male-only, they always were sexist because commisars were always male-only. ......well, that doesn't really change anything in the grand scheme of things, I imagine.
....despite an official GW female commissar model existing (but being limited)
Only War basically spat on that, but like I said, it's just yet another case of a subsidiary doing things better than GW did.
GW would do much better with the female demographic if it actually did something to make them feel welcome.
Actually, GW would do better if it did something to make the fanbase feel welcome.
Or at least advertise like any other company.
But yeah, my social justice warrior tendencies are in a very confused place when GW's main universe is very white male dominated.
da001 wrote: And GK and SW are not good examples: they are subfactions. They are marines.
They are seperate armies with their own codexes. As I said, if you buy their codexes, you're just getting lots of fluff about that one Chapter (or mostly, in the GK's case. But the Sisters have a similar thing in that the Ecclesiarchy is in their codex too). If you make your own paintscheme or subfaction with them, you're deviating from their fluff.
TiamatRoar wrote: GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.
But if you're playing them, you're not playing vanilla SM. You're playing these distinct factions, who have narrower focuses than the SoB.
I think I saw the same in some of the new stuff on Progena, quite recently, but I am no longer sure. Anyway, since the only way to enter the Commissariat is through the Progena (isn´t it?), and only male Progena can become a Commissar, only male Commissars are possible. Officers and Priests may get the position otherwise.
Female Commissars should exist.
They do... in BL. The Commissar-General in Abnett's GG series is a woman.
da001 wrote: And GK and SW are not good examples: they are subfactions. They are marines.
They are seperate armies with their own codexes. As I said, if you buy their codexes, you're just getting lots of fluff about that one Chapter (or mostly, in the GK's case. But the Sisters have a similar thing in that the Ecclesiarchy is in their codex too). If you make your own paintscheme or subfaction with them, you're deviating from their fluff.
TiamatRoar wrote: GK and Space Wolves are basically big fat Space Marine supplements before supplements existed (arguably supplements done right, too. All supplements should introduce new units and big changes to the original parent like they did). They shouldn't be looked at as their own faction, IMHO.
But if you're playing them, you're not playing vanilla SM. You're playing these distinct factions, who have narrower focuses than the SoB.
They are their "own army" in name, only. Fluff-wise and crunch-wise, they're supplements. Really really big and diversified supplements, more so than the actual supplements that would follow, but still supplements in all but name. Thus you won't see Space Wolf supplements because they're already a supplement, even if not officially, and that's fine.
You won't see any SoB supplements, which is lame if they're to be a proper army... well, not until SoB gets more fleshed out as a faction first that's diverse enough to justify a supplement, which is what we're asking for. This is rather putting the cart before the horse though, considering that they aren't even fleshed out enough to get a real codex in the first place (instead of the current mockery of a codex they have).
TiamatRoar wrote: They are their "own army" in name, only. Fluff-wise and crunch-wise, they're supplements. Really really big and diversified supplements, more so than the actual supplements that would follow, but still supplements in all but name. Thus you won't see Space Wolf supplements because they're already a supplement, even if not officially, and that's fine.
I don't think you're getting my point.
Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army. They are playing SWs, a faction with their own distinct fluff, and a faction in which customisation is limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, the vanilla Marines are unrelated to this person's SW army in that they are a seperate army with their own codex and fluff. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most.
I guess we need to back things up to where this originally started. The original statement you responded to when you said I wasn't giving enough credit to their original design was me saying "one major problem with them is yada yada yada".
In this regards, whether or not their design was meant to be narrow is a rather moot point in retrospect. It doesn't change the fact that it's a major problem with them (in my opinion). "Major problem" in this context means "Obstacle to them getting a full codex".
Of course, one could extrapolate that this "major problem" (my opinion) extends to the Space Wolves and GK, but again, in my opinion, that's not a problem for them because they're supplements anyways. It's easy to slap together a "proper codex" for a narrow-focus'd army when many of their units are basically variants of another codex. The sisters don't get that. If it ever becomes a problem for the wolves and Grey Knights, they can just be rolled into the larger codex like Black Templars were. I don't imagine that to be necessary though because they have a large enough fanbase as it is, such is the "popularity power" of Space Marines and their units are diverged enough from the parent units (again, the way all supplements should have been) but eh, you never know.
Now do the sisters have enough popularity power to warrant GW expanding their codex without any significant changes to make them less narrow focused? For that I'd need a few more questions answered, such as "How popular are sisters right now anyways compared to the main armies?", and "Does a lot of their popularity stem from their zealotry, or does it stem from them being female?" combined with "If it's primarily from the latter, would they even be MORE popular if they were more broad ranged but still female?" Of course, one needs to throw in a "If so, how to do this without the whole "female-only" thing being their primary feature, because that would be sexist and wrong?" (in actuality, they do have males in their army. Priests, yo, and battle conclaves. IMHO Fateris Militia and all ranks of the Ecclesiarchy like cardinals really should be added in too if they ever get a full codex army. Yes, SoB are separate from the Ecclesiarchy but that's the only way we'll ever get the rest of the Ecclesiarchy on the table top since the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed to have men-under-arms for their own separate army. Current SoB are already a combination of SoB and Ecclesiarchy anyways, considering the priests and battle conclaves.).
Yeah, whatever. I'm not a newb, I'm just willing to accept that the story is actually better with ancient robotic dynasties with their own internal feuds than the ridiculous necron backstory from 3rd.
...And the Imperium was utterly brutal and xenophobic to stupid levels, starting with the marines.
Here's the thing about extreme xenophobia - it doesn't survive first contact. That's why you have an inquisition running around needing to punish anyone who talks to aliens (and only aliens we don't like, and don't need, because remember, Rogue Traders are allowed to treat with the filthy xenos, and we have jokaero running around with the inquisitors too).
Extreme Xenophobia survives first contact if it is mixed with propaganda, blind fanaticism, total war and genocide attempts. It actually gets stronger.
Anyway, the uncompromising "there is only war", while silly, was part of the setting.... a Necron & Astartes alliance, let alone Astartes & Tau being described as battle brothers, was unthinkable not long ago. "To be purged, that is the fate of the Xeno" and all that.
And I knew you are not a newb, sorry if I implied that. But I think you are somehow "forgetting" how shocking it was for most fans to see Necrons and Blood Angels working together all of a sudden.
(...)
The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.
Wait wait what? Female space marine models? Link? Please?
I got some background from old that includes female Space Marines, but never found an official model.
TiamatRoar wrote: They are their "own army" in name, only. Fluff-wise and crunch-wise, they're supplements. Really really big and diversified supplements, more so than the actual supplements that would follow, but still supplements in all but name. Thus you won't see Space Wolf supplements because they're already a supplement, even if not officially, and that's fine.
I don't think you're getting my point.
Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army. They are playing SWs, a faction with their own distinct fluff, and a faction in which customisation is limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, the vanilla Marines are unrelated to this person's SW army in that they are a seperate army with their own codex and fluff. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most.
Nope.
I cannot speak for TiamatRoar, but I see your point, yet I disagree. For me it goes like this: "Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army, which is one of the many subfactions of Space Marines. They are playing SWs, a subfaction which fluff is basic Space Marines fluff with a few additions, and a subfaction in which, being a highly specific customization of a previously existing army, further customisation is, of course, limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, but something really close, the vanilla Marines are mostly the same to this person's SW army in that they are the original army they came from, with their own codex that is mostly a copy-paste of the "parent-faction" and fluff, which is 99% Space Marines fluff, plus a few traits. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most. Only that Sisters ARE a different faction, not a variant. "
From a non marine perspective, SW and, say, White Scars are nearly one and the same. And WS and IF. And SW and Salamanders. They have a trait, sure, and a distinctive feeling. But the army is 99% identical in units, fluff and game style.
By the way I collect and play both SW and vanilla (and others). I think it is cool that they expand a faction. But the result is a subfaction, not a full faction that need further development when many factions are ignored.
Anyway, the uncompromising "there is only war", while silly, was part of the setting.... a Necron & Astartes alliance, let alone Astartes & Tau being described as battle brothers, was unthinkable not long ago. "To be purged, that is the fate of the Xeno" and all that.
And I knew you are not a newb, sorry if I implied that. But I think you are somehow "forgetting" how shocking it was for most fans to see Necrons and Blood Angels working together all of a sudden.
To be fair, Eldar and the Imperium actually got along better at first in the old fluff than they do now, if I recall correctly. Although relations were portrayed as much worse for a long time before the Tau and Necron-BA alliance came about.
da001 wrote: and a subfaction in which, being a highly specific customization of a previously existing army, further customisation is, of course, limited.
TiamatRoar wrote: It doesn't change the fact that it's a major problem with them (in my opinion). "Major problem" in this context means "Obstacle to them getting a full codex".
Well, and that's my point. We do have these codexes with more limited scopes in terms of how customisable they are. They were made as their own seperate thing by GW, who apparently saw this lack of customisability as no obstacle. To get back to the original point, i don't think that a narrow focus is so crippling as you're saying. Pretty sure that their fluff isn't a factor in the Sisters being held up. As for limiting them as an army, I'm pointing to the SW and GK to show that the Sisters aren't alone in this regard, and that such armies can certainly enjoy popularity and success. Of course, it's ultimately going to be a matter of personal preference on whether the way the SoB fluff works helps or hinder's one's enjoyment of them, but that's fine. Everyone has different tastes.
As I've said, I do think that the Sisters have some room for some expansion and more customisability within the framework of their more ridgid focus. I think that it would happen naturally upon them recieving more development, in fact.
TiamatRoar wrote: Of course, one could extrapolate that this "major problem" (my opinion) extends to the Space Wolves and GK
Well, of course it does. Going just by the fluff, you're limited to one paintscheme and mindset and faction. There's comparatively very little room to put your own spin on things.
TiamatRoar wrote: or does it stem from them being female?" combined with "If it's primarily from the latter, would they even be MORE popular if they were more broad ranged but still female?" Of course, one needs to throw in a "If so, how to do this without the whole "female-only" thing being their primary feature, because that would be sexist and wrong?"
Well, just my opinion... But I think that GW is fairly set on who the Sisters are as an army. The religious fanatic angle is very deeply ingrained into them, and, perhaps more crucially, fits into 40K's grimdark too.
TiamatRoar wrote: To be fair, Eldar and the Imperium actually got along better at first in the old fluff than they do now, if I recall correctly.
They got along well enough for children to be made, in fact. And those children could go on to serve in the Imperium.
Unless you weren't talking about quite that far back.
Yea, okay, I suppose "Major problem" might be overstating it (I didn't mean it as CRIPPLING problem regardless, though). But I do think something should be done to broaden them up a little if they ever get a main codex. Maybe it doesn't have to actually be the root though (I can think of several tertiary units that would allow one to divulge a bit in their armies without affecting the sisters' root zealotry for example. Frateris Milia, Ecclesiarchs, Living Saints, and other attached Ecclesiarchy assets, etc, could all be varied if GW bothered. Again, such things would be more suitable for an Ecclesiarchy army by itself but such a thing should not exist as per the fluff and they're already rolled up into SoB right now)
GW at least makes it clear you're supposed to be able to diversify them (with statements such as each of them having their own minor traditions). As it stands, I still think they're more narrow than they should be for a full army though. Thinking about it further though, that might also be because GW simply hasn't bothered focusing on them. Even Knights got some variety added to them when they got their own codex without having to change their base design so sisters might get the same if they ever get more fleshed out by GW. ...not that the knight codex was a real codex either but it had a hell of a lot of fluff, including the companion book..
Unless you weren't talking about quite that far back.
lol, nope. I think we can safely say most people don't consider those days when thinking about what 40k is. But even aftter those days, there were things like the Battle of Tallarm where they actually explicitly traded "vows of friendship". You just don't see that any more.
Wait, they retconned female commissars who we know to exist?
Lame.
Did they really do that? Again, even Only War has them. If GW went out of their way to state they were all-male in the latest guard codex, then that's just... lame.
....well, even if the Sisters of Battle weren't shoehorned in because they're female (again, I believe they were shoehorned in because of Dune), GW is clearly sexist.
I read through militium temsptus which has the best info on the schola I can find and there's no evidance at all that Commissars would only be male. That said I think it's reasonable to conclude that it's not as common the kind of individual whom would make a good commissar would, in most cases, likely also make a good member of the sisters. so it makes sense for female stormtroopers and commissars to not be as prevalent as the male colleges. the SoBs are almost certinly taking the cream of the crop there
The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.
Wait wait what? Female space marine models? Link? Please?
The funny thing about this is that some of us actually have GW female commisar and GW female space marine models. It's one thing to retcon a story where there's really no evidence that things used to be different. Turning the necrons from a race of mindless soulless killers into a race of ancient re-awakened robots with dynastic tendencies didn't actually impact any of the models.
Wait wait what? Female space marine models? Link? Please?
I hate Jews, of course. Are there still Jews in 40k's IOM ?
I am just kidding, of course (my own mother is Jewish), but really we need to stop talking about races and start using either factions or species, depending on what we actually mean. Because even out of context, if OP had used either of those words, the title would still be perfectly appropriate. Currently, it is not.
I find the Space Wolves fluff very silly and annoying. With Wolfy Wolf McWolf using his Wolf Claw Fang of Grey Wolfiness. And, to a lesser degree, many marine fluff is annoying too.
I hate stupid fanservicy artworks made by some manchild for menchildren too ! I do not think they can be considered a race though. It is more like some some disease that transcend all races.
MarsNZ wrote: Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.
You would have a point, if eldars did not have boobplate. It happens they not only do have boobplate, but also usually get skintight armor.
TiamatRoar wrote: more than two wrongs when you consider the lack of […] Inquisitor female models.
They had some. I use one as a priest. It feature very silly haircut .
TiamatRoar wrote: Or... any female models besides Eldar and scantily clad Dark Eldar)
There is Shadowsun. She is pretty cool. When not drawn by a fanservicy manchild anyway.
I find Space Marines super bland and boring, just a simple juvenile superman fantasy without any features. And all their talk of brother love is quite annoying. Happens, when you only have men around you for hundreds of years
After starting 40k with Tyranids, I lost interest for several years. Tau brought me back because they are the only faction that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. If every faction is just mindless maniacs running amok, the universe become bland and boring.
MarsNZ wrote: wrote:Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.
Sadly, GW sculptor think that men and women share the same body, they just add boobs. Ther is only one lower body for male and female Eldar.
This is their idea of an Eldar woman:
Sadly, GW sculptor think that men and women share the same body, they just add boobs. Ther is only one lower body for male and female Eldar.
This is their idea of an Eldar woman:
I think it's perfectly legitimate for an Eldar woman... they never said they had to be attractive women. It's a diet of computer games and artwork that leads people to think females in games should be thinner / slinkier and generally curvier.
A night out to a Brighton night club will show you otherwise...
Kroothawk wrote: I find Space Marines super bland and boring, just a simple juvenile superman fantasy without any features. And all their talk of brother love is quite annoying. Happens, when you only have men around you for hundreds of years
After starting 40k with Tyranids, I lost interest for several years. Tau brought me back because they are the only faction that doesn't want to kill everything in sight. If every faction is just mindless maniacs running amok, the universe become bland and boring.
MarsNZ wrote: wrote:Eldar had females and they didn't have to BOOBPLATE it up to make it obvious for people.
Sadly, GW sculptor think that men and women share the same body, they just add boobs. Ther is only one lower body for male and female Eldar.
This is their idea of an Eldar woman:
I feel bad for you that you clearly have not delved into the black library fluff, yes even chaos don't always want to fight in the night lords books, the dark angels take a look at themselves in the angels of darkness book (and it's sequel), go look for these books and the eisenhorn series to change your view on several 40k factions
Grey knights, before the update they're were awesome, they were this secretive bunch we barely knew anything about but knew they were complete and utter cut throats in their belief.
Now? they're like standard space marines with a big action man toy as a centre piece
Hey look. Once again, a perfectly good conversation is ruined by SJWs. Joy.
On topic: I'm not a fan of the ultramarines. Their whole shtick seems to be, "best of the best of the best marines" while still being Jack of all trades master of none, in a codex that basically exemplifies that concept.
Tau. I'd be fine with them if they were a larger faction, but they shouldn't exist on their scale, or even matter, they're too small. We shouldn't be hearing anything about them, just them getting steamrolled due to being so pathetically small. But because they're small, they can't lose, so somehow they win against Tyranids and bog down Imperial Crusades.
I have siad this before, and I will say it again until the day I stop using this forum.
dementedwombat wrote: I am warning you, there is a serious level of simmering anger behind this post. Might not want to read it unless you're willing to live with that.
Eldar. I absolutely hate them. For one because I hate elves on principle, smug pointy eared bastards (and elder are basically space elves) but for another because of how many "free passes" they get from a lot of people about so many things.
One of the classic complaints I hear about Tau is that they look "too anime". The Eldar wraith lord has bloody sandals and a katana darn it! Plus Eldar aspect warriors are basically Power Ranges. They have random crystals thrown everywhere on their weapons and shoot sparkly rainbow beams at their enemies.Their infantry weapon is a shuriken cannon! Never have I ever heard people complaining that Eldar look "too anime" unless it's a Tau player specifically pointing this out in response to people complaining about our army.
People complain about Draigo being over the top and a complete fluff travesty all the time. Let me introduce you to a guy named Maugan Ra. He single handedly walked into the eye of terror, pulled his craft-world out of it, then decided to run over and kill an entire hive fleet by himself. Do people complain about this being over the top and ridiculous? No!
Finally people complain about Necrons stealing the Eldar's thunder as "the advanced oldest race". Well, in my opinion the Eldar don't count. You know why? Because their "ancient empire" is now the Eye of Terror. They were so messed up that they created a Chaos God. You know how incompetent the Imperium of Man is in 40k? Their empire is still around. Eldar are worse than them. Now an ancient empire that actually had its gak together enough to not rip the universe open on top of their homeworld are starting to emerge and people think they are stealing the Eldar's place. The Eldar don't deserve their place. Let the Necrons have it.
I just wish the last Craft World would die in a fire so those incredibly arrogant remains of a dying race would finally fade into obscurity and leave us in peace.
I strongly dislike the Dark Eldar, probably because of my failed attempt to play them. Aside from that, the only other army I dislike is the Daemons, but only because they shouldnt really be an army in there own right, thats not how chaos rolls.
My favorite would have to be the tyranids, for being the only really xeno xeno.
I cannot speak for TiamatRoar, but I see your point, yet I disagree. For me it goes like this: "Okay, a person goes out and buys a SW codex and builds a SW army, which is one of the many subfactions of Space Marines. They are playing SWs, a subfaction which fluff is basic Space Marines fluff with a few additions, and a subfaction in which, being a highly specific customization of a previously existing army, further customisation is, of course, limited. They are not playing vanilla Marines, but something really close, the vanilla Marines are mostly the same to this person's SW army in that they are the original army they came from, with their own codex that is mostly a copy-paste of the "parent-faction" and fluff, which is 99% Space Marines fluff, plus a few traits. Yes, the SW are Marine variants, but the end effect is the same as with the Sisters: a faction with a tigher focus than most. Only that Sisters ARE a different faction, not a variant. "
From a non marine perspective, SW and, say, White Scars are nearly one and the same. And WS and IF. And SW and Salamanders. They have a trait, sure, and a distinctive feeling. But the army is 99% identical in units, fluff and game style.
By the way I collect and play both SW and vanilla (and others). I think it is cool that they expand a faction. But the result is a subfaction, not a full faction that need further development when many factions are ignored.
Everybody always seems to forget that the SW aren't the subfaction. They never were. The first Marine Codex released way back in 2nd edition was *not* the vanilla marine codex. It was the Space Wolf Codex. They've always been their own army, even before "regular" Marines were (and that Codex wasn't a Codex: Space Marines, either; it was Codex: Ultramarines).
As to the OP, the race I hate the most are Necrons (both new and old). With the technological power supposedly at these guys' disposal, how are the other factions still there?
Plus, the only way their background can be described is as superlatives over other factions. "They're an ancient race, fallen from grace, like the eldar, but moreso." "They're a technologically advanced race, like the eldar and the tau, only moreso." To stupid-good levels.
da001 wrote: (...)
From a non marine perspective, SW and, say, White Scars are nearly one and the same. And WS and IF. And SW and Salamanders. They have a trait, sure, and a distinctive feeling. But the army is 99% identical in units, fluff and game style.
By the way I collect and play both SW and vanilla (and others). I think it is cool that they expand a faction. But the result is a subfaction, not a full faction that need further development when many factions are ignored.
Everybody always seems to forget that the SW aren't the subfaction. They never were. The first Marine Codex released way back in 2nd edition was *not* the vanilla marine codex. It was the Space Wolf Codex. They've always been their own army, even before "regular" Marines were (and that Codex wasn't a Codex: Space Marines, either; it was Codex: Ultramarines). (...)
There was a time when there were no Codexes. The First Edition.
Look here:
Spoiler:
Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.
Space Wolves were Space Marines then.
Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.
If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).
I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.
Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.
I hate the Tau, I just feel they've been shoehorned into the setting. What I really hate are Tau players that believe the fluff at a surface level, and that they're not another bunch of controlling bastards. Also the fact they barely ever loose, and the way this is justified simply through them using apparently more advanced tactics than everyone else.
Banzaimash wrote: I hate the Tau, I just feel they've been shoehorned into the setting. What I really hate are Tau players that believe the fluff at a surface level, and that they're not another bunch of controlling bastards. Also the fact they barely ever loose, and the way this is justified simply through them using apparently more advanced tactics than everyone else.
I love that kind of player, becuase that means that it worked. They've believed the propaganda
Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.
Space Wolves were Space Marines then.
Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.
If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).
I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.
Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.
Wasn't first edition when eldar could run around with bolters, and marines could have shuriken weaponry?
No, I am saying that since they got the *first* Codex, it's disingenuous to say that they're a subset of another faction who got their own book only afterwards.
And the basic marine statline for Grey Hunters, some equipment options and a few vehicles isn't anywhere near 90% of the SM Codex.
Even from a background perspective, the Wolves are their own army; they do not follow the Codex, and have their own (nearly) independent realm (Ironically, much like the Ultramarines).
Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.
Space Wolves were Space Marines then.
Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.
If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).
I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.
Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.
Wasn't first edition when eldar could run around with bolters, and marines could have shuriken weaponry?
No, I am saying that since they got the *first* Codex, it's disingenuous to say that they're a subset of another faction who got their own book only afterwards.
And the basic marine statline for Grey Hunters, some equipment options and a few vehicles isn't anywhere near 90% of the SM Codex.
Even from a background perspective, the Wolves are their own army; they do not follow the Codex, and have their own (nearly) independent realm (Ironically, much like the Ultramarines).
I consider them a splinter faction, but one that has gone quite far from its roots. But at the heart of it, they're still Astartes born of the emperors blood.
Right at Ultramarine´s side. By the way I played Flesh Eaters then. Flesh Eaters, Flesh Tearers, White Scars, Space Wolves... all of them shared 100% of the rules.
Space Wolves were Space Marines then.
Even more important: they still are. You are saying the same as Troike: "since they got a Codex, they are a faction". Following that reasoning, the Sentinels of Terra or the Legion of the Damned are full factions too. I don´t think they are.
If all Space Wolves are Space Marines, and 90% of any Wolf Codex is copy-pasted from SM Codex, then they are a Space Marine subfaction. It doesn´t matter that, due to marketing, they got a Codex that is almost identical to the core rules they shared before (first edition, in this case).
I am a background-player. Marketing (how much a Codex sell or even the existence of a separate Codex) do not seem relevant to me to determine what a faction is.
Other examples: Adeptus Arbites or Mechanicus, as well as Hrud, Lost and the Damned or Exodites, are full factions too. They just lack a Codex.
Wasn't first edition when eldar could run around with bolters, and marines could have shuriken weaponry?
No, I am saying that since they got the *first* Codex, it's disingenuous to say that they're a subset of another faction who got their own book only afterwards.
And the basic marine statline for Grey Hunters, some equipment options and a few vehicles isn't anywhere near 90% of the SM Codex.
Even from a background perspective, the Wolves are their own army; they do not follow the Codex, and have their own (nearly) independent realm (Ironically, much like the Ultramarines).
I get it. You count factions according to books.
For me, it is about the background. See the Mechanicus or Arbites example. For me they are a full faction in their own right, in spite of lacking a Codex. The admech is soon to get a Codex, or so it seems, but for me they are a full faction since forever.
Iron Hands, Black Templars or Blood Angels do not follow the Codex Astartes, and they all have their own background and stuff, exactly as Wolves. The only difference would be that the Wolves got a Codex first. Ultramarines were there before a generic SM Codex was released too. All these armies are Space Marines, with about 10% new content over the generic Astartes. It is more than all statlines, most of the weaponary and gear and most of the vehicles (isn´t it "all the vehicles" for the Wolves right now?): it is sharing an origin.
The implants, the past as a Legion, the Primarchs... wolves and the rest of Space Marines share a common background. It is not by chance than the stats, vehicles and gear of a Salamander are exactly as those of a Space Wolf: the similarities are not similarities: they have the same stuff because they get the same stuff (implants, gear, vehicles) from the same sources, for the same reason.
They are both marines. To see a different faction, look at Necrons or Tau or Orks.
I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, I just think of factions from a "fluffy" point of view. You say they got a Codex so they are a faction. Ok, I get it. Different interpretations, that´s all.
Some people share your opinion, or so it seems reading Troike´s post. And Hive Fleet Cerberus just posted something I agree 100% with: "a splinter faction, but one that has gone quite far from its roots. But at the heart of it, they're still Astartes born of the emperors blood." Yeah, that´s it.
da001 wrote: Some people share your opinion, or so it seems reading Troike´s post.
Honestly, I don't particularly care about the technicalities of whether something is a subfaction or a whole faction or whatever. The point I was trying to make with the SW/GK is that other codexes can exist with even tighter focuses than the SoB one, but still be fully-sized, expansive and well-liked. And I stand by that point.
And if we skip the "faction/subfaction" debate, I 100% agree with you.
The four things I am missing in this game right now are:
1) A proper Sisters of Battle Codex.
2) Chaos Legions rules
3) A proper Mechanicus Codex.
4) Some Xenos that are actually Xenos (like the nids), instead of quite close to humans (like, well, the rest).
Tau never seem to lose in any meaningful manner, ever. They have so much plot armor its not funny, but of course marines take all the "plot armor" flak because they're the poster boys.
I don't particularly care for chaos marines or tyranids. CSM are chaotic stupid, running around killing everything, being generally shouty and stupid. I prefer smart, sophisticated evil. And also just ebcause one writer, ADB, does CSM well does not undo all the years of eye bleedingly bad fluff. Nids are bland an over powered, I don't hate them, they just are uninspired.
EmilCrane wrote: Tau never seem to lose in any meaningful manner, ever. They have so much plot armor its not funny, but of course marines take all the "plot armor" flak because they're the poster boys.
I don't particularly care for chaos marines or tyranids. CSM are chaotic stupid, running around killing everything, being generally shouty and stupid. I prefer smart, sophisticated evil. And also just ebcause one writer, ADB, does CSM well does not undo all the years of eye bleedingly bad fluff. Nids are bland an over powered, I don't hate them, they just are uninspired.
Don't worry, Chaos Marines are chaotic stupid when ADB writes them too. If anything, he dials up their chaotic stupid to an 11.
- - -
I don't "hate" any faction, but I've grown disenfranchised with the Eldar and Sisters of Battle. GW has written them both very poorly over the past few years, in my opinion.
BlaxicanX wrote: I've grown disenfranchised with the Eldar and Sisters of Battle. GW has written them both very poorly over the past few years, in my opinion.
I am curious, how do you feel that the SoB have been written badly?
I dislike the SoB somewhat. I actually like their fluff, but I think they look horrible. Their haircuts are stupid and when painted black, they look like an army of bdsm mistresses.
They should have more SM-like power armour and nicer hair. And more variety. And plastic kits.
Iron_Captain wrote: I dislike the SoB somewhat. I actually like their fluff, but I think they look horrible. Their haircuts are stupid and when painted black, they look like an army of bdsm mistresses.
They should have more SM-like power armour and nicer hair. And more variety. And plastic kits.
Everyone really wants that. Hell I might even take more interest in the SOB if they just got a bloody update.
Hmmm. Nah, not like the Space Marines. The Sisters should keep a distinct look, something that fits their aesthetic.
For me, a good "boobplate" alternative would be something like a knight's chestplate, decorated with appropriate iconography. Would go nicely with the SoB's look.
Iron_Captain wrote: I dislike the SoB somewhat. I actually like their fluff, but I think they look horrible. Their haircuts are stupid and when painted black, they look like an army of bdsm mistresses.
They should have more SM-like power armour and nicer hair. And more variety. And plastic kits.
Everyone really wants that. Hell I might even take more interest in the SOB if they just got a bloody update.
No, they don't. I love the Gothic look of the Sisterhood.
Hmmm. Nah, not like the Space Marines. The Sisters should keep a distinct look, something that fits their aesthetic.
For me, a good "boobplate" alternative would be something like a knight's chestplate, decorated with appropriate iconography. Would go nicely with the SoB's look.
That actually would look pretty good. Going Joan of Arc would also fit the theme of the SOBs.
Hmmm. Nah, not like the Space Marines. The Sisters should keep a distinct look, something that fits their aesthetic.
For me, a good "boobplate" alternative would be something like a knight's chestplate, decorated with appropriate iconography. Would go nicely with the SoB's look.
Some better designed armour for them would be good. Eyecandy chestplates make them more difficult to take seriously.
Hmmm. Nah, not like the Space Marines. The Sisters should keep a distinct look, something that fits their aesthetic.
For me, a good "boobplate" alternative would be something like a knight's chestplate, decorated with appropriate iconography. Would go nicely with the SoB's look.
Some better designed armour for them would be good. Eyecandy chestplates make them more difficult to take seriously.
I always found the figure of the outfit was countered by the terrible uniform haircuts and whatnot, to try and show SOME feminine qualities. otherwise they're nor really distinguishable from any other military formation. As the sisters of battle they are a solely female group and I can't think of any other way to easily show that they're women other than show their a female figure.
It's like should we stop showing the abs and pecks on sanguinary guard just because it's eyecandy for chicks?
Hmmm. Nah, not like the Space Marines. The Sisters should keep a distinct look, something that fits their aesthetic.
For me, a good "boobplate" alternative would be something like a knight's chestplate, decorated with appropriate iconography. Would go nicely with the SoB's look.
That actually would look pretty good. Going Joan of Arc would also fit the theme of the SOBs.
^this. Gothic all the way for the Sisters. And Joan of Arc should be a reference (it already is).
I mean, compare an Exorcist tank with a Predator. That´s the difference between the armies.
Also, a more recent source of inspiration (and quite popular) could be this:
Spoiler:
"Brienne of Tarth + Faith" in 40k is what I think a Sister of Battle should be.
Tau:
First: cuz' they will use every and i mean EVERY way to spread their so called greater good, if honey doeasn't work they use the hard way, and what happens if a race get annexed but is useless to the T'au? will let's ask to those who have been exterminated by a "sudden" and "devastating" plague leaving their world to their blue friends
Second:Let's talk about the vespids and those "Communion Helmets" worn ONLY by the Vespid Leaders
Third: or the fact that Tau have sterilized or turned Un-Fertile whole human colonies because there were too many Gue'la reproducing (or birth rate and longevity is superior given the proper heathcare)
Third: they talk about assimilation in the empire, while they consider themselves superior to the annexed races, instead of trying to understand other races they simply label them, Kroots are barbaric, Humans are untrustworthy etc...
Lastly i could have accepted all those things, but what i cannot EVER accept is that the Tau are keeping calling themselves the good guys, the imperium is full of sick bastards but at least they are not that much hypocrites, the tau want to expand and force THEIR greater good and will gladly let everyone else be damned,burned or eaten if they can't, they'll simply won't care
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Tau. Entirely too overpowered and a blatant attempt to draw in the Anime/Manga crowds (not that there is anything wrong with Anime or Manga, mind you).
Hmmm. Nah, not like the Space Marines. The Sisters should keep a distinct look, something that fits their aesthetic.
For me, a good "boobplate" alternative would be something like a knight's chestplate, decorated with appropriate iconography. Would go nicely with the SoB's look.
That actually would look pretty good. Going Joan of Arc would also fit the theme of the SOBs.
^this. Gothic all the way for the Sisters. And Joan of Arc should be a reference (it already is).
I mean, compare an Exorcist tank with a Predator. That´s the difference between the armies.
Also, a more recent source of inspiration (and quite popular) could be this:
Spoiler:
"Brienne of Tarth + Faith" in 40k is what I think a Sister of Battle should be.
I also just can't stand the bloody boob plate, it's just a target in combat for either a sword cleave or could deflect a bolt into your neck or sternum. If you want to show they're female, just slim their waste and say so on the tin.
I´d rather take a normal armour, but I will be ok with the boob plate. After all, if they are properly dressed they will be nearly indistinguishable from marines. I am always more concerned about the fluff regarding the Sisters.
Chainmail bikinis and heels will be too much though.
Excluding the Howling Banshees, they already "allow" the Eldar to do this since they don't have sex restrictions like the Imperium does. A male Eldar Guardian looks like a Female Eldar Guardian but I think they do this more out of convenience in mass production of models than actual consideration of treating the sexes equally. Both male Farseers and female Farseers wear the same clothing for a more specialized example and yet, they still make the Howling Banshees with boob plate.
Envihon wrote: Excluding the Howling Banshees, they already "allow" the Eldar to do this since they don't have sex restrictions like the Imperium does. A male Eldar Guardian looks like a Female Eldar Guardian but I think they do this more out of convenience in mass production of models than actual consideration of treating the sexes equally. Both male Farseers and female Farseers wear the same clothing for a more specialized example and yet, they still make the Howling Banshees with boob plate.
Actually the femguardians have boobplate but are otherwise identical to maleguardians.
Space Wolves. I've never liked the models, or the fluff (took me forever to slog through Prospero Burns - never again) and they have only got sillier over time. Presumably when they get their own flyer it will be called Airwolf...
I´d rather take a normal armour, but I will be ok with the boob plate. After all, if they are properly dressed they will be nearly indistinguishable from marines. I am always more concerned about the fluff regarding the Sisters.
Chainmail bikinis and heels will be too much though.
That's the point! You shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a male and female soldier. The Sisters should just have more subtle differences, like slimmer waists and slightly wider hips.
Not only is most of the writing for them legitimately awful (in teenage fanfic style) and stupid naming conventions flooding their fluff, but they also try to be a huge number of mutually exclusive, contradictory things at the same time, and they come off as trying way too hard in the worst way.
Its funny, nobody hated Tau when the army had a crappy, lack luster codex and was univeraly stomped by all. I've been playuing Tau since 2005 and everything about them makes them my favorit race. The sinister way they first try to befriend and then anex and incorporate alien races into their empire, their back story of how they came to be and how far they have come since the IoM first found them as savage plane dwellers, the mystery behind the Etheral control, Commander Farsight's awesome back story, the paralles of Pure Tide and Sun Tzu, their animie/manga astetics aswell as a host of other factors.
...Just felt i needed to defend from some of the Tau hate. But haters gonna hate! Guess they just got Riptide smushed a few too many times.
My personal most hated race are by far Marines. I dont mind playing against them but they just arnt my cup of tea, i've never been a big fan of poster boy armies.
Messy0 wrote: Its funny, nobody hated Tau when the army had a crappy, lack luster codex and was univeraly stomped by all. I've been playuing Tau since 2005 and everything about them makes them my favorit race. The sinister way they first try to befriend and then anex and incorporate alien races into their empire, their back story of how they came to be and how far they have come since the IoM first found them as savage plane dwellers, the mystery behind the Etheral control, Commander Farsight's awesome back story, the paralles of Pure Tide and Sun Tzu, their animie/manga astetics aswell as a host of other factors.
...Just felt i needed to defend from some of the Tau hate. But haters gonna hate! Guess they just got Riptide smushed a few too many times.
My personal most hated race are by far Marines. I dont mind playing against them but they just arnt my cup of tea, i've never been a big fan of poster boy armies.
Man where were you when people violently raged about the Tau's inclusion in 3e?
Messy0 to be fair, I never really cared for the Tau fluff or model line. The current rules never really bothered me. Heck the last time I played againt Tau was with Nids, and I pretty much steam-rolled him. At the end of the game the only thing still standing was his Riptide, and all it cost me was some Gaunts.
Messy0 wrote: Its funny, nobody hated Tau when the army had a crappy, lack luster codex and was univeraly stomped by all. I've been playuing Tau since 2005 and everything about them makes them my favorit race. The sinister way they first try to befriend and then anex and incorporate alien races into their empire, their back story of how they came to be and how far they have come since the IoM first found them as savage plane dwellers, the mystery behind the Etheral control, Commander Farsight's awesome back story, the paralles of Pure Tide and Sun Tzu, their animie/manga astetics aswell as a host of other factors.
...Just felt i needed to defend from some of the Tau hate. But haters gonna hate! Guess they just got Riptide smushed a few too many times.
My personal most hated race are by far Marines. I dont mind playing against them but they just arnt my cup of tea, i've never been a big fan of poster boy armies.
Man where were you when people violently raged about the Tau's inclusion in 3e?
I think i was too young to be scanning internet forums back then, especially with our (then) state of the art dial-up modem. People needed to use the phone too!
I´d rather take a normal armour, but I will be ok with the boob plate. After all, if they are properly dressed they will be nearly indistinguishable from marines. I am always more concerned about the fluff regarding the Sisters.
Chainmail bikinis and heels will be too much though.
That's the point! You shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a male and female soldier. The Sisters should just have more subtle differences, like slimmer waists and slightly wider hips.
I doubt it is possible for (most) sculptors to do so. Currently, you can either go 100% indistinguishable or exaggerate the sexual dimorphism (boobs and hips, but mostly boobs) to a point it feels wrong to think of them as male. Perhaps with the coming of 3D printing we will get a massive number of models and someone will get it right.... if it is possible.
Another solution: exactly the same, but with female bare heads on characters. This is hard too, because long hair is not a viable option.
Another solution (my favorite): make the marines look far bigger and with wrong proportions everywhere, as they are in the fluff. And make the Sisters (and the IG) look smaller and with human proportions: 'true' 28mm scale (see FW Death Korps of Krieg) instead of the current 'heroic' 28mm scale.
Anyway, I am ok with the look of most of the models.
id have to say i dislike the daemons most of all. And not just cause im a hard core grey knight but because their models looks silly and are too colorful and in my mind it takes too many
different types to make them really work. I havent ever come a cross a daemon army that uses only nurgle or only tzeentch or only khorne. they are either paired with CSM or a mix of all
the gods and i dont like that too much.
I´d rather take a normal armour, but I will be ok with the boob plate. After all, if they are properly dressed they will be nearly indistinguishable from marines. I am always more concerned about the fluff regarding the Sisters.
Chainmail bikinis and heels will be too much though.
That's the point! You shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a male and female soldier. The Sisters should just have more subtle differences, like slimmer waists and slightly wider hips.
I doubt it is possible for (most) sculptors to do so. Currently, you can either go 100% indistinguishable or exaggerate the sexual dimorphism (boobs and hips, but mostly boobs) to a point it feels wrong to think of them as male. Perhaps with the coming of 3D printing we will get a massive number of models and someone will get it right.... if it is possible.
Another solution: exactly the same, but with female bare heads on characters. This is hard too, because long hair is not a viable option.
Another solution (my favorite): make the marines look far bigger and with wrong proportions everywhere, as they are in the fluff. And make the Sisters (and the IG) look smaller and with human proportions: 'true' 28mm scale (see FW Death Korps of Krieg) instead of the current 'heroic' 28mm scale.
Anyway, I am ok with the look of most of the models.
Well took a look at Samus Aran's armor (not her Zero suit) it's distinctly feminine in it's proportions (especially the waist area) but it's not at all sexualized. Obviously her armor is way too shiny and clean futuristic for the SoB's gothic aesthetic, but that's one way for sculptors to show a model is a woman without giving them boobplate.
I´d rather take a normal armour, but I will be ok with the boob plate. After all, if they are properly dressed they will be nearly indistinguishable from marines. I am always more concerned about the fluff regarding the Sisters.
Chainmail bikinis and heels will be too much though.
That's the point! You shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a male and female soldier. The Sisters should just have more subtle differences, like slimmer waists and slightly wider hips.
I doubt it is possible for (most) sculptors to do so. Currently, you can either go 100% indistinguishable or exaggerate the sexual dimorphism (boobs and hips, but mostly boobs) to a point it feels wrong to think of them as male. Perhaps with the coming of 3D printing we will get a massive number of models and someone will get it right.... if it is possible.
Another solution: exactly the same, but with female bare heads on characters. This is hard too, because long hair is not a viable option.
Another solution (my favorite): make the marines look far bigger and with wrong proportions everywhere, as they are in the fluff. And make the Sisters (and the IG) look smaller and with human proportions: 'true' 28mm scale (see FW Death Korps of Krieg) instead of the current 'heroic' 28mm scale.
Anyway, I am ok with the look of most of the models.
Well took a look at Samus Aran's armor (not her Zero suit) it's distinctly feminine in it's proportions (especially the waist area) but it's not at all sexualized. Obviously her armor is way too shiny and clean futuristic for the SoB's gothic aesthetic, but that's one way for sculptors to show a model is a woman without giving them boobplate.
To be fair, Samus' armour is taking the whole 'slim waist' thing far too far.
I´d rather take a normal armour, but I will be ok with the boob plate. After all, if they are properly dressed they will be nearly indistinguishable from marines. I am always more concerned about the fluff regarding the Sisters.
Chainmail bikinis and heels will be too much though.
That's the point! You shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a male and female soldier. The Sisters should just have more subtle differences, like slimmer waists and slightly wider hips.
I doubt it is possible for (most) sculptors to do so. Currently, you can either go 100% indistinguishable or exaggerate the sexual dimorphism (boobs and hips, but mostly boobs) to a point it feels wrong to think of them as male. Perhaps with the coming of 3D printing we will get a massive number of models and someone will get it right.... if it is possible.
Another solution: exactly the same, but with female bare heads on characters. This is hard too, because long hair is not a viable option.
Another solution (my favorite): make the marines look far bigger and with wrong proportions everywhere, as they are in the fluff. And make the Sisters (and the IG) look smaller and with human proportions: 'true' 28mm scale (see FW Death Korps of Krieg) instead of the current 'heroic' 28mm scale.
Anyway, I am ok with the look of most of the models.
Well took a look at Samus Aran's armor (not her Zero suit) it's distinctly feminine in it's proportions (especially the waist area) but it's not at all sexualized. Obviously her armor is way too shiny and clean futuristic for the SoB's gothic aesthetic, but that's one way for sculptors to show a model is a woman without giving them boobplate.
To be fair, Samus' armour is taking the whole 'slim waist' thing far too far.
See how the arm joints are at the biceps instead of the shoulder? She would not be able to lift her arm in that suit.
Samus' armor has gone through at least five art shifts.
First of course, is the clunky space ranger armor seen in the promos of the original metroid when a female protagonist was literally the most shocking thing ever (ain't the 80s grand?)
Then there's the Metroid 2/Super metroid redesign which makes it look less like a space suit and less raygun gothic.
Metroid Prime 1 came in and redesigned the armor again, though I think it's mostly similar to Super metroid's save for the Visor being a flat T rather than a curved shape.
Then Metroid Prime 2 slimmed down the overmassive pauldrons and sleeked the armor a bit, and this design was stuck with for a while. Zero mission also trimmed down the over-bully Super metroid armor at the same time.
Other M further slimmed down Samus' suit and apparently retconned the gravity suit ever being purple.
Overall, the MP2-MP3 design is my favorite of her Varia suit designs, but my favorite suit has to be the Light Suit. The Phazon suit has a sweet colour scheme though.
Though, Metroid Fusion did show a problem with her armor similar to what Terminators face; the shoulders are so broad she'd break her arms trying to fit them in, but I think Other M's de-emphasization of the pauldrons fixed that.
I do agree that the hour glass figure on Samus' suit is a bit too extreme, but it's better than 99.99% of female armor in terms of trying to earn the male gaze.
ashcroft wrote: Space Wolves. I've never liked the models, or the fluff (took me forever to slog through Prospero Burns - never again) and they have only got sillier over time. Presumably when they get their own flyer it will be called Airwolf...
I know the pain of Prospero Burns, although I applaud you for finishing it.
You say that as if a unit called "Airwolf" would be a bad thing...
Space Marines...Geneticly blended scum of the universe proping up the fascist regime of a rotting corpse. They regularly cross over to choas and cause more problems than they are worth. Kill em all loyal and choas and let thier father emperor sort them out.
DOWN WITH SPACE MARINES
I have regularly have stated, "I dont really care if I win a tournament as long as I utterly destroy every space marine army I encounter."
I had to ammend that latly since we now have a few kids and newbies at our FLGS that play them...dont want to scare them away.....however vetern adults are fair game.
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: Space Marines...Geneticly blended scum of the universe proping up the fascist regime of a rotting corpse. They regularly cross over to choas and cause more problems than they are worth. Kill em all loyal and choas and let thier father emperor sort them out.
DOWN WITH SPACE MARINES
I have regularly have stated, "I dont really care if I win a tournament as long as I utterly destroy every space marine army I encounter."
I had to ammend that latly since we now have a few kids and newbies at our FLGS that play them...dont want to scare them away.....however vetern adults are fair game.
Hey now, Space marines make for good genecodes.
Mix some Space Marine there, a bit of Ork here, a pinch of Kroot there, a dash of Hrud there, a touch of Eldar here, and viola, new horrornids.
Now that I think about it, I do hate the Tau and Space Marines. Not in a "This army fething sucks, remove it" more in a "I enjoy crushing this army on the battlefield". Or maybe that counts as loving those armys in 40k... no clue.
I've always hated Space Marines of all flavors.
I'm sick to death of hearing about how they dominate the galaxy despite their presence bordering on 'endangered species.'
I'm tired of seeing them on every 40k source book.
I'm sick of people thinking that their chapter needs attention when all chapters are basically the same with laughably minor differences.
I hate playing against them. It's boring.
I hate their fluff. Their continued existence makes no sense. (around 1,000,000 SMs in the galaxy, fighting for a living, and they're not extinct? Even if that were plausible, there simply aren't enough of them to impact the outcome of war with a single xenos race, much less all of them.)
The term "plot armor" can be applied to aspects of all races, but with space marines it's a gross understatement. They are the auto-win race of all the fluff. Lame.
There are so many more interesting things going on in the 40k galaxy. Shame they're all overshadowed by the most bland faction in the game.
I truly believe that if SMs were to disappear from the fluff, the 40k universe would be much more interesting.
Archonate wrote: I've always hated Space Marines of all flavors.
I'm sick to death of hearing about how they dominate the galaxy despite their presence bordering on 'endangered species.'
I'm tired of seeing them on every 40k source book.
I'm sick of people thinking that their chapter needs attention when all chapters are basically the same with laughably minor differences.
I hate playing against them. It's boring.
I hate their fluff. Their continued existence makes no sense. (around 1,000,000 SMs in the galaxy, fighting for a living, and they're not extinct? Even if that were plausible, there simply aren't enough of them to impact the outcome of war with a single xenos race, much less all of them.)
The term "plot armor" can be applied to aspects of all races, but with space marines it's a gross understatement. They are the auto-win race of all the fluff. Lame.
There are so many more interesting things going on in the 40k galaxy. Shame they're all overshadowed by the most bland faction in the game.
I truly believe that if SMs were to disappear from the fluff, the 40k universe would be much more interesting.
They are not extinct because they have open recruiting where they draw on the billions upon billions of people to make into SM but you are right, read fluff from a different Imperial worldview and SM are pretty rare with the average Imperial citizen going their whole life without ever seeing one. They are also suppose to be elite warriors who don't die
I can understand why some people don't like SM, they are, for the most part, a hero fantasy. A genetically modified every man that one can visual themselves as. It's what always drew me towards the Inquisition more and I do also agree that SM are over represented in BL books when fantasy has a lot more variety when it comes to representing the different armies but I have never understood this kind of hatred towards an army. I have my dislikes or just not interested armies but I have never fully hated one army or another. SM are over-played but they are also the jack of trades army to get people into the hobby and I know a lot of people who started the hobby with SM because they are the easiest army to "get" and then once they are in, they see the different armies and continue with one of those or maybe they choose to stay with SM. I do wish that they would up the amount of fluff for other armies though past just the codices. The new Necrons would be able to have books about them from their perspective given more of the new personality. We are seeing more Eldar and Dark Eldar stuff which to me is pretty awesome, I would like some Tau stuff as well. I even think an Ork book could be pretty amusing, if we have Chaos books and DE books, why can't we have Ork books. A Tyranid book would be hard, given hive intelligence but I also think that would ruin the ominous shadow of destruction over the galaxy thing that they have.
For me, I am attracted to SM because I am a sucker for Robert Heinlein's power armor.
Each race contributes to a gigantic galaxy wide stalemate where no one wins.
Archonate wrote: I've always hated Space Marines of all flavors.
I'm sick to death of hearing about how they dominate the galaxy despite their presence bordering on 'endangered species.'
I'm tired of seeing them on every 40k source book.
I'm sick of people thinking that their chapter needs attention when all chapters are basically the same with laughably minor differences.
I hate playing against them. It's boring.
I hate their fluff. Their continued existence makes no sense. (around 1,000,000 SMs in the galaxy, fighting for a living, and they're not extinct? Even if that were plausible, there simply aren't enough of them to impact the outcome of war with a single xenos race, much less all of them.)
The term "plot armor" can be applied to aspects of all races, but with space marines it's a gross understatement. They are the auto-win race of all the fluff. Lame.
There are so many more interesting things going on in the 40k galaxy. Shame they're all overshadowed by the most bland faction in the game.
I truly believe that if SMs were to disappear from the fluff, the 40k universe would be much more interesting.
They are not extinct because they have open recruiting where they draw on the billions upon billions of people to make into SM but you are right, read fluff from a different Imperial worldview and SM are pretty rare with the average Imperial citizen going their whole life without ever seeing one. They are also suppose to be elite warriors who don't die
I can understand why some people don't like SM, they are, for the most part, a hero fantasy. A genetically modified every man that one can visual themselves as. It's what always drew me towards the Inquisition more and I do also agree that SM are over represented in BL books when fantasy has a lot more variety when it comes to representing the different armies but I have never understood this kind of hatred towards an army. I have my dislikes or just not interested armies but I have never fully hated one army or another. SM are over-played but they are also the jack of trades army to get people into the hobby and I know a lot of people who started the hobby with SM because they are the easiest army to "get" and then once they are in, they see the different armies and continue with one of those or maybe they choose to stay with SM. I do wish that they would up the amount of fluff for other armies though past just the codices. The new Necrons would be able to have books about them from their perspective given more of the new personality. We are seeing more Eldar and Dark Eldar stuff which to me is pretty awesome, I would like some Tau stuff as well. I even think an Ork book could be pretty amusing, if we have Chaos books and DE books, why can't we have Ork books. A Tyranid book would be hard, given hive intelligence but I also think that would ruin the ominous shadow of destruction over the galaxy thing that they have.
For me, I am attracted to SM because I am a sucker for Robert Heinlein's power armor.
Each race contributes to a gigantic galaxy wide stalemate where no one wins.
I probably wouldn't hate them if all armies got equal representation. I feel like GW is trying to shove an army that I'm not interested in down my throat... Over and over and over. After so long, I've turned from indifference to eye-rolling fatigue.
For BL books, I LOVE the Eldar and DE books. DE books are not only well written, but also have fantastic plots in motion. I've long admired Andy Chambers as a talented genius of fantasy/sci-fi writing. He gives an unprecedented view of life in Commoragh and the exploits of its denizens. The Eldar books are not as well written, but also give a window of such detail into life on a Craftworld. It's tragic that after all this time, we're only now getting these glimpses into other races. This is thanks to GW insisting for years that only SMs are allowed to be cool.
Only recently is a Tau series being put in the works. It'll be by Phil Kelly and supposedly based on the story of Commander Farsight. (Though if you ask me, it doesn't even need to be that grand. If he wrote a story about a Bonded squad of Tau Pathfinders, it would be akin to Gaunt's Ghosts, only with much cooler gadgets.) Take note though, we're only getting these fantastic books because GW has backed away from their "ALL SPACE MARINES, ALL THE TIME!" mentality... Notice the abundance of non-SM Codex releases in 6th Edition. Tis a good trend I hope they continue.
Necrons. Their lore is a joke, their pre-5e models are fine but their new models with all the weird Tau circular eyepieces and absurdist flimsy-looking hovertanks that don't look anything like the Monolith look like crap, and their rules are horribly written (when it comes to unique nobody-else-can-have-anything-even-remotely-like-this things, less is more).
AnomanderRake wrote: Necrons. Their lore is a joke, their pre-5e models are fine but their new models with all the weird Tau circular eyepieces and absurdist flimsy-looking hovertanks that don't look anything like the Monolith look like crap, and their rules are horribly written (when it comes to unique nobody-else-can-have-anything-even-remotely-like-this things, less is more).
Dont forget we have some fancy toys of our own my grey knight brother. Who else shunts 30 inches just cause they can?
Archonate wrote: I've always hated Space Marines of all flavors.
I'm sick to death of hearing about how they dominate the galaxy despite their presence bordering on 'endangered species.'
I'm tired of seeing them on every 40k source book.
I'm sick of people thinking that their chapter needs attention when all chapters are basically the same with laughably minor differences.
I hate playing against them. It's boring.
I hate their fluff. Their continued existence makes no sense. (around 1,000,000 SMs in the galaxy, fighting for a living, and they're not extinct? Even if that were plausible, there simply aren't enough of them to impact the outcome of war with a single xenos race, much less all of them.)
The term "plot armor" can be applied to aspects of all races, but with space marines it's a gross understatement. They are the auto-win race of all the fluff. Lame.
There are so many more interesting things going on in the 40k galaxy. Shame they're all overshadowed by the most bland faction in the game.
I truly believe that if SMs were to disappear from the fluff, the 40k universe would be much more interesting.
They are not extinct because they have open recruiting where they draw on the billions upon billions of people to make into SM but you are right, read fluff from a different Imperial worldview and SM are pretty rare with the average Imperial citizen going their whole life without ever seeing one. They are also suppose to be elite warriors who don't die
I can understand why some people don't like SM, they are, for the most part, a hero fantasy. A genetically modified every man that one can visual themselves as. It's what always drew me towards the Inquisition more and I do also agree that SM are over represented in BL books when fantasy has a lot more variety when it comes to representing the different armies but I have never understood this kind of hatred towards an army. I have my dislikes or just not interested armies but I have never fully hated one army or another. SM are over-played but they are also the jack of trades army to get people into the hobby and I know a lot of people who started the hobby with SM because they are the easiest army to "get" and then once they are in, they see the different armies and continue with one of those or maybe they choose to stay with SM. I do wish that they would up the amount of fluff for other armies though past just the codices. The new Necrons would be able to have books about them from their perspective given more of the new personality. We are seeing more Eldar and Dark Eldar stuff which to me is pretty awesome, I would like some Tau stuff as well. I even think an Ork book could be pretty amusing, if we have Chaos books and DE books, why can't we have Ork books. A Tyranid book would be hard, given hive intelligence but I also think that would ruin the ominous shadow of destruction over the galaxy thing that they have.
For me, I am attracted to SM because I am a sucker for Robert Heinlein's power armor.
Each race contributes to a gigantic galaxy wide stalemate where no one wins.
I probably wouldn't hate them if all armies got equal representation. I feel like GW is trying to shove an army that I'm not interested in down my throat... Over and over and over. After so long, I've turned from indifference to eye-rolling fatigue.
For BL books, I LOVE the Eldar and DE books. DE books are not only well written, but also have fantastic plots in motion. I've long admired Andy Chambers as a talented genius of fantasy/sci-fi writing. He gives an unprecedented view of life in Commoragh and the exploits of its denizens. The Eldar books are not as well written, but also give a window of such detail into life on a Craftworld. It's tragic that after all this time, we're only now getting these glimpses into other races. This is thanks to GW insisting for years that only SMs are allowed to be cool.
Only recently is a Tau series being put in the works. It'll be by Phil Kelly and supposedly based on the story of Commander Farsight. (Though if you ask me, it doesn't even need to be that grand. If he wrote a story about a Bonded squad of Tau Pathfinders, it would be akin to Gaunt's Ghosts, only with much cooler gadgets.) Take note though, we're only getting these fantastic books because GW has backed away from their "ALL SPACE MARINES, ALL THE TIME!" mentality... Notice the abundance of non-SM Codex releases in 6th Edition. Tis a good trend I hope they continue.
I can understand a lot of that. GW for the longest time refused to have any books from an alien perspective because they feel that authors would ruin the "mystique" of the what the aliens are by doing this. Translation: We had a lot of authors try and completely fail to write so we are giving up (Fire Warrior and C.S. Goto are the two main reasons that come to mind). My argument against that, there have been plenty of bad SM and Imperial novels, never stopped them before. If they were so afraid of too humanizing them, they why did they do it with the Necron codex? And as you said the Eldar and DE stuff they are coming out with has been pretty good. I have yet to get to it but I have listened to the audio dramas and they are pretty awesome. GW needs to realize that people other than Imperial players want to explore their armies past their codices. Get into the mind of a normal Tau warrior, the reasons why Necrons are doing what they are doing. They have shown that they can do a villains perspective too with the success of their CSM novels. They need to find people who are willing to read the codices when they write and they won't get bad xenos novels.
They are dull. They are far too good in the game, BS2 should be the standard for them, not BS3. They act too much like an elite force and don't represent the dirty infantry they should be. The commands rules they get belong to Tyranids and the Hive mind, there is no reason Guard should have commands as a special rule.
Leech wrote: I hate the Imperial Guard of Astra militarum.
They are dull. They are far too good in the game, BS2 should be the standard for them, not BS3. They act too much like an elite force and don't represent the dirty infantry they should be. The commands rules they get belong to Tyranids and the Hive mind, there is no reason Guard should have commands as a special rule.
To be fair, that elite races like Eldar and Space Marines have been 'juiced down' while less elite ones like Orks and Guardsmen have been 'juiced up' is for a very simple reason.
Money.
If ten Tactical Space Marines had been enough for a small battle, and you would need far more than just 2.8 times as many Guardsmen, then nobody would play Guardsmen. They would just take the cheap option and go Space Marines. It's already the most popular army.
Try using unbound to shift stuff around, it's great fun to use Nobz as Boyz and CMs or Captains as Tactical Marines and things start to make more sense then.
Autarchs instead of Aspect Warriors. It's perfect- you can adjust them to any Aspect!
Leech wrote: I hate the Imperial Guard of Astra militarum.
They are dull. They are far too good in the game, BS2 should be the standard for them, not BS3. They act too much like an elite force and don't represent the dirty infantry they should be. The commands rules they get belong to Tyranids and the Hive mind, there is no reason Guard should have commands as a special rule.
Do you uh... are you aware of what the Imperial Guard even is?
Why would trained soldiers be BS2, when the RULEBOOK states that a stat of 3 is the standard rating for "trained" warriors?
Why does it not make sense for trained soldiers who rely on a chain of command to not have something like orders?
Don't blame the Guard for Tyranids being crap on the tabletop.
Leech wrote: I hate the Imperial Guard of Astra militarum.
They are dull. They are far too good in the game, BS2 should be the standard for them, not BS3. They act too much like an elite force and don't represent the dirty infantry they should be. The commands rules they get belong to Tyranids and the Hive mind, there is no reason Guard should have commands as a special rule.
Do you uh... are you aware of what the Imperial Guard even is?
Why would trained soldiers be BS2, when the RULEBOOK states that a stat of 3 is the standard rating for "trained" warriors?
Why does it not make sense for trained soldiers who rely on a chain of command to not have something like orders?
Sounds like penis envy to me. lol.
While this exact case of WS/BS is indeed as you say, I insist on the points I made above.
I agree with you about the "elite" armies, in that they're definitely toned down on the tabletop.
There's nothing elite about the Guard, though. A single infantry squad will accomplish absolutely nothing, meanwhile a single horror squad will wipe out the majority of full-strength,single wound, 4+ save or worse squads in a single turn of shooting with average rolls.
Daemons are an example of what an "elite" horde army looks like. The Guard are just straight horde.
BlaxicanX wrote: I agree with you about the "elite" armies, in that they're definitely toned down on the tabletop.
There's nothing elite about the Guard, though. A single infantry squad will accomplish absolutely nothing, meanwhile a single horror squad will wipe out the majority of full-strength,single wound, 4+ save or worse squads in a single turn of shooting with average rolls.
Daemons are an example of what an "elite" horde army looks like. The Guard are just straight horde.
Yeah, well, whether it is the weaklings that are buffed and the stronglings nerfed, or just one of those two does not really matter as the end results are the same.
Mind you, I am actually okay with the current stat-basis. 40K feels very 'arcade' and really abstracted currently which is okay. I can sacrifice immersion in the name of carnage. If I want immersion I can just go to my DoWII mod!
The one in her signature. Which basically adjust the stats of units so that they are more related to her interpretation of the fluff, while also adjusting cost etc to keep game balance somehow.
Hate...no one really. Even the Tau fit, IMHO (as a kind of counterpoint to the grimdark...but only at first glance. Really, they're all violent, double-crossing, pheromone mind-controlled communists).
But, if had to pick... the only faction I don't like are...
...Marines....
There's too many and they take away from all the much, much more interesting races and factions.
Leech wrote: I hate the Imperial Guard of Astra militarum.
They are dull. They are far too good in the game, BS2 should be the standard for them, not BS3. They act too much like an elite force and don't represent the dirty infantry they should be. The commands rules they get belong to Tyranids and the Hive mind, there is no reason Guard should have commands as a special rule.
Huh? Why should they be BS2? BS2 is for Orks that are more concerned with making noise than actually hitting something. They've been BS3 since Rogue Trader in 1987, before the Tyranids ever existed. The Imperial Guard comprises a huge vast array of fighting forces, assuming they should all just be human waves of conscripts is to willingly ignore half their background.
As for Orders, what makes Orders such a Tyranid thing and not an Imperial Guard thing?
Leech wrote: I hate the Imperial Guard of Astra militarum.
They are dull. They are far too good in the game, BS2 should be the standard for them, not BS3. They act too much like an elite force and don't represent the dirty infantry they should be. The commands rules they get belong to Tyranids and the Hive mind, there is no reason Guard should have commands as a special rule.
Huh? Why should they be BS2? BS2 is for Orks that are more concerned with making noise than actually hitting something. They've been BS3 since Rogue Trader in 1987, before the Tyranids ever existed. The Imperial Guard comprises a huge vast array of fighting forces, assuming they should all just be human waves of conscripts is to willingly ignore half their background.
As for Orders, what makes Orders such a Tyranid thing and not an Imperial Guard thing?
Well there were Rogue Trader era tyranids buuut...
Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote: I thought they started out as Genestealer cults in Rouge trader then became Tyranids in 2e?
No, Genestealers and Tyranids were separate until the 2e codex.
Before then you had to take an army of at least 50% Zoats (erased from the background like Squats, but far fewer people mind because they were admittedly out of place) if you wanted to field a Tyranid army and they only had a handful of units. Though it's worth noting that back then, pretty much every army only had a handful of units.
Hive Fleet Cerberus wrote: I thought they started out as Genestealer cults in Rouge trader then became Tyranids in 2e?
No, Genestealers and Tyranids were separate until the 2e codex.
Before then you had to take an army of at least 50% Zoats (erased from the background like Squats, but far fewer people mind because they were admittedly out of place) if you wanted to field a Tyranid army and they only had a handful of units. Though it's worth noting that back then, pretty much every army only had a handful of units.
Its a shame, I see some potential in the Zoats models.
Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Ratius wrote: I hate the Dark Eldar.
Their philosophy of torture and abuse really dosent sit well with me at all.
I'd wipe them out in a second if I could.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
With the new Necron fluff and the right dynasty, I think we could get some interesting Necron centered stories instead of just an enemy everyone else fights.
The likes of Venner do have personality though. So I'd say much like Necrons, Krieger personalities are mostly concentrated in their bosses. Who have an even bigger boner for the emperor than their soldiers.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
With the new Necron fluff and the right dynasty, I think we could get some interesting Necron centered stories instead of just an enemy everyone else fights.
I'd like to see a Necron focused novel in the future, but first an Ork book.
Vespid. You said race, not faction. I think they could have done fly people much better than that. But also the Tau. They originated on a desert world and yet their skin is blue.
Quarterdime wrote: Vespid. You said race, not faction. I think they could have done fly people much better than that. But also the Tau. They originated on a desert world and yet their skin is blue.
How does that mater? They aren't really required to hide from anything, they evolved fast as hell and probably not aimed towards camouflage.
They've actually got a really rich personality and a lot of depth. It's only at first glance they seem like simple, brutish things.
Frankly, they're probably the least evil race in the galaxy. Name one other species in 40k that doesn't HATE any/everything.
The ork word for best friend is the same word for favorite enemy. If you fight back, they respect you more and enjoy themselves more. They don't really like it when people can't defend themselves. Other races prefer to fight enemies who can't fight back...
They've actually got a really rich personality and a lot of depth. It's only at first glance they seem like simple, brutish things.
Frankly, they're probably the least evil race in the galaxy. Name one other species in 40k that doesn't HATE any/everything.
The ork word for best friend is the same word for favorite enemy. If you fight back, they respect you more and enjoy themselves more. They don't really like it when people can't defend themselves. Other races prefer to fight enemies who can't fight back...
I feel the exact opposite, they're one of the evilest purely because they don't hate everything. They just love killing, and that's terrifying. They'll rip your limbs from your body, hear your screams and laugh all the while. The Imperium atleast does it for a reason, the Orks do it for fun.
They've actually got a really rich personality and a lot of depth. It's only at first glance they seem like simple, brutish things.
Frankly, they're probably the least evil race in the galaxy. Name one other species in 40k that doesn't HATE any/everything.
The ork word for best friend is the same word for favorite enemy. If you fight back, they respect you more and enjoy themselves more. They don't really like it when people can't defend themselves. Other races prefer to fight enemies who can't fight back...
I feel the exact opposite, they're one of the evilest purely because they don't hate everything. They just love killing, and that's terrifying. They'll rip your limbs from your body, hear your screams and laugh all the while. The Imperium atleast does it for a reason, the Orks do it for fun.
In terms of evil, the Dark Eldar tend to have everyone else beat.
They've actually got a really rich personality and a lot of depth. It's only at first glance they seem like simple, brutish things.
Frankly, they're probably the least evil race in the galaxy. Name one other species in 40k that doesn't HATE any/everything.
The ork word for best friend is the same word for favorite enemy. If you fight back, they respect you more and enjoy themselves more. They don't really like it when people can't defend themselves. Other races prefer to fight enemies who can't fight back...
I feel the exact opposite, they're one of the evilest purely because they don't hate everything. They just love killing, and that's terrifying. They'll rip your limbs from your body, hear your screams and laugh all the while. The Imperium atleast does it for a reason, the Orks do it for fun.
In terms of evil, the Dark Eldar tend to have everyone else beat.
No doubt about that, they're 100% pure, untainted (Or incredibly tainted...) evil. And GW does nothing to shy away from that, something I dislike about them. But a bit behind them would be the orks for me.
I would have to say yes the soul vampires that are the Dark Eldar are probably one of the most evil factions in the game since they know what they are doing, torturing and disfiguring beings and then consuming their soul, yeah definitely evil.
Orks on the other hand, I don't see as evil, barbaric yes but not evil simply because they are a warrior culture. From what I have seen they don't exactly relish dismemberment like the Dark Eldar do but the relish the battle itself. They love fighting and that is how you earn respect. It isn't a culture that I identify with but it is one that I can understand and respect. I would read an Ork centered story as well as a Necron one. The Dark Eldar got their novels for Emperor's sake.
As far as I can tell, while fighting does gain them respect, they dont really care about that. They fight for the sake of fighting, and if they get respect, then thats more boyz to crush the hummies with!
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
I hear that there's a short story involving old one eye and teilion that almost reads like Jaws on land.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
Your two posts sum it up perfectly.
The best way to use the extremely 0-dimensional Kriegsmen is to be plot punching bags. Something Guardsmen luckily tend to be specialists at.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
I hear that there's a short story involving old one eye and teilion that almost reads like Jaws on land.
They dont have emotion, they have thought. Pure logic and tactical genius, no morals or emotions to stop them
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
I hear that there's a short story involving old one eye and teilion that almost reads like Jaws on land.
They dont have emotion, they have thought. Pure logic and tactical genius, no morals or emotions to stop them
Their logic however is as extensive and lengthy as is their nose, as they see nothing beyond it. While they do have a good logical view of events in the immediate short-term, their foresight tends to be terrible and their typical doctrine of engaging and enemy they nothing about is to immediately attack them.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
I hear that there's a short story involving old one eye and teilion that almost reads like Jaws on land.
They dont have emotion, they have thought. Pure logic and tactical genius, no morals or emotions to stop them
Their logic however is as extensive and lengthy as is their nose, as they see nothing beyond it. While they do have a good logical view of events in the immediate short-term, their foresight tends to be terrible and their typical doctrine of engaging and enemy they nothing about is to immediately attack them.
And they dont really need any long term logic. They find the best way to win this battle, win, continue till planets destroyed, eat, then die. Not much use for long term planning, the Hive Minds got that covered.
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
I hear that there's a short story involving old one eye and teilion that almost reads like Jaws on land.
They dont have emotion, they have thought. Pure logic and tactical genius, no morals or emotions to stop them
Their logic however is as extensive and lengthy as is their nose, as they see nothing beyond it. While they do have a good logical view of events in the immediate short-term, their foresight tends to be terrible and their typical doctrine of engaging and enemy they nothing about is to immediately attack them.
And they dont really need any long term logic. They find the best way to win this battle, win, continue till planets destroyed, eat, then die. Not much use for long term planning, the Hive Minds got that covered.
Except that often renders their entire actions both wasteful and pointless. You should only lay down your life for the Emperor if you absolutely know for certain that it is more beneficial than staying alive and "tactically consolidating your forces in a different sector behind some very big orbital guns".
Wyzilla wrote: Also for one of the specific factions I hate the most- the Death Korps of Krieg. They're annoyingly dull and have no character, and thus are as interesting as a pile of dirt. The bloody Necrons have more personality than the Kriegers, who are little more than emotionally dead biological robots who are brainwashed to even be more emotionally dead. You can't have a character without any real internal struggle- you just get a flat piece of cardboard that a child could write.
Less personality than the Necrons and Tyranids?
That's quite low praise.
The BL doesn't seem to consistently portray the Kriegers, though Forgeworld does show them as mostly martyrdom hogs with a boner for the Emperor longer than their lasguns.
Necron personality depends on the Dynasty, and Tyranid stories seem to draw on man vs nature tales and monster movies like Jaws.
The Kriegers more or less tend to just be horribly flat and terribly boring. Tyranids do actually have more chatacter than the Death Korps going by Genestealers, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, and the Swarmlord, all of whom do on some level feel emotion and are written as such (they aren't "just" the animals some in the Imperium believe them to be). But damn. I've not read one book on the Death Korps of Krieg that had me interested at all in the Kriegers. Just the Commissars. Still better than Ben Counter books though.
I hear that there's a short story involving old one eye and teilion that almost reads like Jaws on land.
They dont have emotion, they have thought. Pure logic and tactical genius, no morals or emotions to stop them
Their logic however is as extensive and lengthy as is their nose, as they see nothing beyond it. While they do have a good logical view of events in the immediate short-term, their foresight tends to be terrible and their typical doctrine of engaging and enemy they nothing about is to immediately attack them.
And they dont really need any long term logic. They find the best way to win this battle, win, continue till planets destroyed, eat, then die. Not much use for long term planning, the Hive Minds got that covered.
Except that often renders their entire actions both wasteful and pointless. You should only lay down your life for the Emperor if you absolutely know for certain that it is more beneficial than staying alive and "tactically consolidating your forces in a different sector behind some very big orbital guns".
Oh, I was talking about the Tyranids, not the Kreigers. The person you qouted said they had some sort of emotion, I was replying to that. Only thing Tyranids want with the emperor is to eat him.
Kriegers also scout ahead, see Dead Men Walking where they send Grenadiers via Valkyries to scout ahead, while the main Korps surround the city with trenches and big guns.
Obviously those scouts will fight, but they're also gathering data.
I like every race but, in terms of fluff my least favourite is Tau, and in terms of tabletop gameplay i dont like space marines. Their just boring and oh so repetitive and tedious
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What's so inherently wrong with adding some diversity to things? It's nice having some female representation in things. Besides, they're not defined by their gender, they bring more than that to the fluff and the game.
