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Post by: Zookie
Could the IOM launch an offensive operation into the Eye of Terror or would any fleets or armies just be shredded when they entered "less than real" space? Could small scale operations sneak in?
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Post by: nobody
Zookie wrote:Could the IOM launch an offensive operation into the Eye of Terror or would any fleets or armies just be shredded when they entered "less than real" space? Could small scale operations sneak in?
There have been instances. A large scale Space Marine penitent crusade attempted it (most of the chapters were either turned to Chaos or destroyed), the Space Wolves 13th company (devolved mostly to Wulfen to prevent falling to Chaos), and the occasional squad level (or smaller) penitent crusade (ex: Uriel Ventris).
Generally bad things happen to them.
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Post by: Exergy
They have tried numerous times, generally with disastrous results. The larger the force sent in, the worse it goes.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Throwing men and material into the Eye of Terror only bolsters Chaos and any damage they do would most likely be repaired within the year. They would be better off simply blowing up anyone who tried leaving and keep the threat contained.
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Post by: jhe90
If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
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Post by: thenoobbomb
jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
Machine Spirits and all that can be turned, too, and otherwise they can easily be disabled by scrapcode.
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Post by: jhe90
 thenoobbomb wrote:jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
Machine Spirits and all that can be turned, too, and otherwise they can easily be disabled by scrapcode.
OK so no way round it. Basically chaos could camp in the eye and basicly be totally safe from impirial attacks. Only race I think may stand a chance is maybe necrons, they are unique in being living metal, don't,t rely on warp drives, n have as I understand no prescense chaos can use against.
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Post by: Thorgrim Bloodcrow
The Wulfen have always been one of my favourite pieces of Space Wolf fluff. From the looks of the new psychic Daemon powers, IF it's available to my Wolves, I'm going to ask the guys I play with if I can proxy some Wulfen type models and use one of the Daemon stats (whichever is most combat-y to match the Wulfen fighting style) in place of going out and having to actually buy Daemons.
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Post by: welshhoppo
It did.
It didn't come back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was called the Abyssal Crusade. 30 Space Marine Chapters marched into the EOT after being told they had suffered warp taint. Most of them are now Chaos Marines.
Chaos corrupts, and willingly going into the Eye is like walking into Mcdonald's with incredibly high blood pressure. It will probably kill you.
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Post by: Pyeatt
 welshhoppo wrote:It did.
It didn't come back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was called the Abyssal Crusade. 30 Space Marine Chapters marched into the EOT after being told they had suffered warp taint. Most of them are now Chaos Marines.
Chaos corrupts, and willingly going into the Eye is like walking into Mcdonald's with incredibly high blood pressure. It will probably kill you.
Vorpal Swords made it out, brother.
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Post by: Mellow
Someone should tell the Necrons to build loads of Pylons. That might shrink it down over a period of time, right?
Problem is they don't care.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.
But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.
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Post by: Gashrog
He did say 'most' not all.
To quote the chaos codex: "A representative from each of the doomed Chapters held an emergency Council of Dismay to discuss the proposed crusade. After scant hours of debate they acquiesced to Basillius' demands, for they believed that martyrdom was preferable to an existence of suspicion and doubt."
30,000 Astartes. Likely one of the largest musters of Space Marines since the Horus Heresy itself, and the marines regarded it - pretty accurately - as a suicide mission. It's been almost 11,000 years since the foul traitor legions were banished, if the Imperium of Man was ever capable of clearing out the Eye it would have happened by now.
The Eye of Terror isn't - well, give Matt Ward time - Toontown from Who Framed Roger Rabbit. It's all of Clive Barkers worst nightmares rolled into one bad acid trip. The Ordo Malleus once sent an Inquisitor in for a recce, when his ship came out his report was written on the walls of his quarters in his own blood. Sure you can invade, but you'll be losing men to mutation and insanity faster than the warp fueled veterans of long war can kill them, and when you're done there'll be just as many mutants and madmen left in the eye as when you started, tho the Administratum will deny it.
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Post by: Pyeatt
Fair point. The way I had read it was to mean most of them were corrupted and the rest were destroyed. Call it a late-night reading mistake.
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Post by: SHUPPET
 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:The Wulfen have always been one of my favourite pieces of Space Wolf fluff. From the looks of the new psychic Daemon powers, IF it's available to my Wolves, I'm going to ask the guys I play with if I can proxy some Wulfen type models and use one of the Daemon stats (whichever is most combat-y to match the Wulfen fighting style) in place of going out and having to actually buy Daemons.
This is more fluffy than any other version of running it.
Anyone who says no to this is being a dick.
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Post by: MajorStoffer
In theory, the Imperium can defeat any single foe in the setting; they've got more force than most of them combined. The problem with the Eye is the Eye itself. The traitor legions, lost and the damned and the like don't stand a chance one on one with the Imperium, but the Imperium can't overcome the warp itself, at least not practically. Sure, if they threw every talented psyker, inquisitor and arcane Mechanicus device at the Eye, they might do something to it, and cripple the Imperium in the process.
The Eye of Terror is what has allowed the various Chaos forces to launch such audacious campaigns against an objectively superior foe time and time again because they have an impenetrable fortress, not one made of walls, armies and gun batteries, but of reality-destroying impossibilities. It's what makes the forces of Chaos so dangerous; you can destroy every ship, kill every soldier, burn every traitor legionnaire, and it would not matter. So long as a single dark mechanicus adept, chaos space marine or other traitor lives, they can withdraw into a place the Imperium simply can not go, and rebuild. The Imperium can forstall Chaos offensives by attacking the outer reaches of the Eye, but the deepest parts are accessible only those favoured by the dark gods, and not even the combined might of every Imperial battlefleet, which doubtlessly outnumbers the armadas of Chaos a hundred times over and then some can blast through hell itself.
No other force in 40k has the same degree of durability the Eye of Terror, and the Maelstrom for that fact, provide. They all have tangible, destroyable bases, whether they be Tomb Worlds, Craftworld, Septs, but Chaos can withdraw to a hole in reality. Theoretically, the Imperium could, with finality, destroy any other single foe in the galaxy, but even if Chaos stood alone, the Imperium could not wipe them clean.
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Post by: MarsNZ
 MajorStoffer wrote:In theory, the Imperium can defeat any single foe in the setting; they've got more force than most of them combined.
I've never seen anything that remotely supports this in the fluff. The only race this is attributed to is the Orks, and even then, I don't buy it. Tyranids say hi?
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Post by: LumenPraebeo
MarsNZ wrote: MajorStoffer wrote:In theory, the Imperium can defeat any single foe in the setting; they've got more force than most of them combined.
I've never seen anything that remotely supports this in the fluff. The only race this is attributed to is the Orks, and even then, I don't buy it. Tyranids say hi?
The Imperium is the largest and most powerful political entity in the galaxy, consisting of at least a million worlds, which are dispersed across most of the Milky Way Galaxy.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperium_of_Man#.U3nEqCimWyc
It's stronger than even that in my opinion. If you have the resouces and technology to colonize a million worlds, surely all this time after the Great Crusade, you'd be able to colonize hundreds of millions more. Past a certain point, the population of mankind will breed like bacteria, or fungus.  If you have the ability to colonize a million worlds, you'd be able to live on asteroids and harvest resources on uninhabitable planets, You'd be able to build your own self-sufficient space stations. I think the Imperium has trouble with its enemies not because they're stronger, but because of corruption and strife from within. The Imperium is a behemoth of an empire. The most likely reason for its inefficiency is the very thing that makes it strong. Its tens of trillions, maybe even centillions of people.
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Post by: MarsNZ
Your link doesn't support the numbers you're theorising.
I'll raise you a quote from the very same webpage you linked
Although their society is entirely primitive and brutal, the Orkoid race is also the most successful species in the whole Galaxy, outnumbering possibly every other race. However, due to their aggressive and warlike nature, this massive race is split into hundreds of tiny empires, warring as much between themselves as against other races. In the purely theoretical event all the Orks were to unite, they would undoubtedly crush all opposition.
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Post by: MajorStoffer
MarsNZ wrote: MajorStoffer wrote:In theory, the Imperium can defeat any single foe in the setting; they've got more force than most of them combined.
I've never seen anything that remotely supports this in the fluff. The only race this is attributed to is the Orks, and even then, I don't buy it. Tyranids say hi?
It's been a consistent facet of the fluff that the Imperium is stronger than any single foe they face. It is only due to the multitude of powerful foes that they face which prevents decisive victorious. The Tyranids would require an enormous percentage of the Imperium's capacity to defeat decisively, allowing Orks, Eldar, and Chaos to run rampant. The same applies to any other faction, with each representing a varying degree of difficulty. This is an empire which through sheer inertia has continued to expand in spite of the enormous array of threats posed to it.
Make no mistake, the Imperium is the most powerful force in the 40k universe, but the degree by which it is more powerful than its foes is not consistent, nor sufficient as to allow it to outright defeat most of the "major" threats. They do, however, regularly extinguish lesser Xeno civilizations like the Tau on a regular basis. In relation to the topic here, Chaos is interesting in that even if every other threat to the Imperium dissapeared, the Imperium could not fully defeat Chaos. Contain it within the Eye, certainly, but all their power means nothing next to the warp.
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Post by: Selym
 Pyeatt wrote: welshhoppo wrote:It did.
It didn't come back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was called the Abyssal Crusade. 30 Space Marine Chapters marched into the EOT after being told they had suffered warp taint. Most of them are now Chaos Marines.
Chaos corrupts, and willingly going into the Eye is like walking into Mcdonald's with incredibly high blood pressure. It will probably kill you.
Vorpal Swords made it out, brother.
Guess they had business to attend with a Jabberwocky.
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Post by: welshhoppo
 Selym wrote: Pyeatt wrote: welshhoppo wrote:It did.
It didn't come back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was called the Abyssal Crusade. 30 Space Marine Chapters marched into the EOT after being told they had suffered warp taint. Most of them are now Chaos Marines.
Chaos corrupts, and willingly going into the Eye is like walking into Mcdonald's with incredibly high blood pressure. It will probably kill you.
Vorpal Swords made it out, brother.
Guess they had business to attend with a Jabberwocky.
Maybe they went in to find the Bandersnatch?
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
There is a novel which features an imperial expedition to land troops in the eye of terror (the novel is called "eye of terror").
It went very badly, with the ground forces being immediately overwhelmed.
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Post by: Exergy
 BlaxicanX wrote:A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.
But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.
A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.
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Post by: LumenPraebeo
MarsNZ wrote:Your link doesn't support the numbers you're theorising.
I'll raise you a quote from the very same webpage you linked
Although their society is entirely primitive and brutal, the Orkoid race is also the most successful species in the whole Galaxy, outnumbering possibly every other race. However, due to their aggressive and warlike nature, this massive race is split into hundreds of tiny empires, warring as much between themselves as against other races. In the purely theoretical event all the Orks were to unite, they would undoubtedly crush all opposition.
Thats cause I'm not guessing based off fluff. How many people are on earth? How many are to come in the next ten years? How much older can the elder get within the next twenty years without organ failure? My guess is the Imperium of man numbers hundreds of trillions strong, centillions. I stick by my opinion.
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Post by: Darth Bob
I'm pretty sure that, after the assortment of failed assaults on the Eye of Terror, the Imperium has resolved that the best course of action is to just take the defensive against Chaos rather than trying to hit them on their home turf. After all, going into the Warp has more dangers than just the military forces of Chaos; the very world around you will seek to corrupt you, body and soul.
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Post by: jhe90
On defensive they have a major batlefleet, backed by the fortress world of cadia.
But a strike on fleet assets may be more way, taking planets does not do as much as destroying there transports, battle fleets and maybe even taking down a infamous ship like terminus eat or the vengeful spirit, monsters of dark days of heresy
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Post by: Bludbaff
Regarding the strength of the Imperium, while it may be stronger than everyone else, its major flaw is that the impenetrable bureaucracy means it can't reliably bring that strength to bear on less than a decade's notice. The Imperium may be theoretically more politically unified than the Orks, but in reality it's every bit as divided into petty fiefdoms and factions. The major advantage is that internal struggles are mostly waged with words rather than bolts.
The only faction that the Imperium could definitely wipe out if they chose to is the Tau. The Orks are too dispersed throughout the galaxy to bring decisive force to bear on them. The Necrons are much the same, but with the added disadvantage that the Imperium can't even find them unless they're already mobilized for war. The Eldar are far too good at hiding, whether moving craftworlds to avoid discovery or skulking in the Webway. The Imperium may be able to wipe out the Tyranids, but without any way to estimate their numbers beyond the galactic rim they'd never know until one side or the other was already on the verge of destruction. And Chaos can't be effectively attacked in its strongholds, and even if it could it springs up secretly on dozens of worlds every day.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
 Exergy wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye. But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.
A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.
The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye. Such is the scale of the Imperium.
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Post by: Psienesis
jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
There are daemons that take the form of malefic code that can, and do, possess machines. Mindless creatures also cannot summon the force of will to resist the corrupting effects of the Warp, so what happens is all your servitors and robots start growing tentacles and twisting into mutated forms. Worse, some gain sentience... murderously malefic sentience.
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Post by: Selym
 Psienesis wrote:jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
There are daemons that take the form of malefic code that can, and do, possess machines. Mindless creatures also cannot summon the force of will to resist the corrupting effects of the Warp, so what happens is all your servitors and robots start growing tentacles and twisting into mutated forms. Worse, some gain sentience... murderously malefic sentience.
And then they become killbots of the 41st millenium.
 Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of which, I now want a Chaos Knight.
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Post by: Ashiraya
BlaxicanX wrote: Exergy wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.
But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.
A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.
The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye.
Such is the scale of the Imperium.
So the loyal third is capable of defeating not only the traitorous third but also all the Chaos forces?
The maths do not compute.
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Post by: Selym
 Ashiraya wrote: BlaxicanX wrote: Exergy wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.
But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.
A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.
The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye.
Such is the scale of the Imperium.
So the loyal third is capable of defeating not only the traitorous third but also all the Chaos forces?
The maths do not compute.
And that insane third.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Mellow wrote:Someone should tell the Necrons to build loads of Pylons. That might shrink it down over a period of time, right? Problem is they don't care.
This. Necrons are fully immune to the Warp itself and cannot be corrupted by Chaos in any way - as basically, they are soulless machines. On the other hand, why would they care? Chaos does exactly what they want: the total extinction of all life. If Chaos triumphs over the IoM, the entire galaxy collapses and the Necrons, or rather their leaders, the C'Tan, will greatly appreciate exploiting the other races weakness and reap their souls. Tyranids will feed on the chaos as well, leading, eventually, to a total destruction of the entire universe as we know it. And the C'tan fulfilled their ultimate goal. So all in all, Necrons don't have any reason to actively stand up against Chaos as long as they keep doing what they're doing: murder and destruction.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Ashiraya wrote:
So the loyal third is capable of defeating not only the traitorous third but also all the Chaos forces?
The maths do not compute.
In fairness, the third that don't turn traitor would likely be those of stronger will and have had greater training (such as Stormtroopers, Sisters of Battle and Space Marines). Still, I think two-thirds being incapacitated or turned is unlikely. One would imagine that in a dedicated campaign they'd primarily be enacting Exterminatus rather than landing (though in the Abyssal Crusade the Space Marines seemed to be landing on planets so who knows).
Selym wrote:And that insane third.
They'd presumably be fighting both sides (or doing nothing in particular or whatever).
Sigvatr wrote: If Chaos triumphs over the IoM, the entire galaxy collapses and the Necrons, or rather their leaders, the C'Tan, will greatly appreciate exploiting the other races weakness and reap their souls. Tyranids will feed on the chaos as well, leading, eventually, to a total destruction of the entire universe as we know it. And the C'tan fulfilled their ultimate goal.
As of the 5th Edition Necron Codex the Necrons have overthrown the C'tan and shattered them into weaker Shards. They no longer (generally at least) serve them; neither do most want to exterminate all life.
Besides that, even before the 5th Edition Codex the C'tan never wanted to kill everything. They wanted to farm living beings. Chaos triumphing over the galaxy would put the C'tan in a bad position anyway; their control over the Materium would mean less when the Immaterium seeps through.
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Post by: Envihon
 Bludbaff wrote:Regarding the strength of the Imperium, while it may be stronger than everyone else, its major flaw is that the impenetrable bureaucracy means it can't reliably bring that strength to bear on less than a decade's notice. The Imperium may be theoretically more politically unified than the Orks, but in reality it's every bit as divided into petty fiefdoms and factions. The major advantage is that internal struggles are mostly waged with words rather than bolts.
The only faction that the Imperium could definitely wipe out if they chose to is the Tau. The Orks are too dispersed throughout the galaxy to bring decisive force to bear on them. The Necrons are much the same, but with the added disadvantage that the Imperium can't even find them unless they're already mobilized for war. The Eldar are far too good at hiding, whether moving craftworlds to avoid discovery or skulking in the Webway. The Imperium may be able to wipe out the Tyranids, but without any way to estimate their numbers beyond the galactic rim they'd never know until one side or the other was already on the verge of destruction. And Chaos can't be effectively attacked in its strongholds, and even if it could it springs up secretly on dozens of worlds every day.
Basically this and this was the reason why the Emperor was trying to make a human webway. There is a lot of mis-communication and misunderstandings that happen in the Imperium from them ever standing as full unified front like they were at the time of the Great Crusade. I think the Great Crusade even shows what humans can do once united but that isn't the grim darkness of the far future.
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Post by: Exergy
BlaxicanX wrote: Exergy wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:A large enough Imperial incursion could probably sweep out the majority of traitors hiding out in the eye.
But that's not tenable for the Imperium right now. The amount of resources they would have to expend to do that would pretty much cripple their military on a galactic scale. They'd be at the mercy of every other xenos out there.
A large enough Imperial incursion would rapidly be defeated as a third of the loyal troops turn to chaos, a third go stark raving mad, and the remaining third is cut to pieces by the local inhabitants and the first third.
The single third that didn't turn to Chaos or go stark raving mad would be enough to crush all opposition in the Eye.
Such is the scale of the Imperium.
but the third that didnt turn would be the same size as the third that turned.
around 30k the combined might of man was greater than at any point in clear history. The combined18-20 SM legions, Guard Legions, Legio Cybernetica, and Legio Titanica were far more powerful than anything the IoM could muster in 40k. The problem is when half a force turns, it doesnt matter how large the force was to begin with.
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Post by: Mellow
30k. Good times. No one had turned traitor, the race was united. The Great Crusade had destroyed nearly every race they had come across that stood against Humanity.
Then it all went wrong and basically as long as The Eye and The Maelstrom exist, there can be no victory.
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Post by: Selym
Mellow wrote:30k. Good times. No one had turned traitor, the race was united. The Great Crusade had destroyed nearly every race they had come across that stood against Humanity.
Then it all went wrong and basically as long as The Eye and The Maelstrom exist, there can be no victory.
#grimdark
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Post by: Devious
The ironic part is that the only means of destroying chaos definitively would be to eradicate all psychically active species, thus starving chaos of the negative emotions that fuel their demonic powers. Thus humanity finds itself in a Catch-22 where-by chaos will inevitably corrupt all of humanity so long as war is waged against it. The more blood is spilled by the IOM the stronger Khorne becomes.
Put ontop of that the upcoming evolutionary change that is accelerating across humanity where-by more and more humans are becoming psychics. As humanity slowly drifts towards an eldar-like existence of psychic affinity more and more portals to chaos are opening across the imperium, and creating more war, more slaughter, more blood for the blood throne.
So currently the defensive tactics used by the IOM at Cadia are a delaying tactic. Since chaos cannot be defeated by martial means (because Chaos is the manifestation of the dark impulses of humanity) no invasion could ever succeed decisively/
In a very not Grim-Dark way the moral of the 40k universe is actually: "In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is Only War, Unless Every Species Finally Chooses to Settle their Differences Through Consensus Building and Peaceful Mediation."
Love the Heretic
Hug the Mutant
Shower the Unclean
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Post by: Selym
Devious wrote:The ironic part is that the only means of destroying chaos definitively would be to eradicate all psychically active species, thus starving chaos of the negative emotions that fuel their demonic powers.
Why is this such a common perception?
Chaos has the means to sustain itself by harassing the Tau, or non-sentient species with its daemons.
Heck, the daemons alone could probably keep themselves going for a few million years.
Add in the possibility that WHFB is an alternate reality that the warp can reach to, and chaos wins by default.
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Post by: Ferros
I'm curious why the IOM doesn't spend every waking moment of their lives lobbing those "Teraton" missles they have, or even the much more believeable triple-digit megaton beasts into every planet in the eye they can find.
It's not like, at the IOM's scale, the materials or science is particularly difficult. They even talk of having cloaked kill-ships they use specifically for spying. Just attach some warp-cloaked nukes on those things, and start dousing every planet worth a damn with nuclear fire.
In other news, I would actually love to see a plot where a Necron dynasty partners with either liberal Mechanicum elements or Dark Mechanicus to make something beastly.
Imagine the Mechanicus trading some Pariah-related tech [Since Humanity has more experience with Pariahs than the Necrons, presumably, even if their anti-warp in general is much less impressive] or Dark Mechanicus explaining their technology is exchange for.. absolutely anything.
I'd trade quite a bit for a Cairn-class ship..
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Post by: welshhoppo
Because no doubt the warp would chew them up and spit them back out as Chaos infested missiles.
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Post by: Selym
welshhoppo wrote:Because no doubt the warp would chew them up and spit them back out as Chaos infested missiles.
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Post by: invisiblade
If the imperium could find out what the Tyranid will chase, they could send the bait into the EOT, and have the Tyranid follow.
Similarly do the same with Orks, but we know the bait would just be a promise of endless battle and weapons. They would just have to find a way to spread the word fast amongst the orks.
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Post by: Ferros
Doesn't quite work like that, in the fluff.
As said, they even have killships specifically used for venturing into the Eye and similar territories.
An alternative is just to fire Nova cannons into the Warp Storm.
You can easily predict where a planet will be, so planning a firing solution isn't all that difficult.
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Post by: welshhoppo
True, but the effective range on such weapons wouldn't be more than a few hundred thousand miles, far to short to actually hit a planet without being more or less next to it.
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Post by: Selym
Ferros wrote:
You can easily predict where a planet will be, so planning a firing solution isn't all that difficult.
The reason the Imperium has difficulty with the EoT, is the reason why that statement is utterly incorrect.
The EoT is a breach in reality where these things no longer exist:
-Space
-Time
-Distance
-Sanity
-Physical Matter
-Non-Physical Matter
-Logic
-Coherency
-- 8 reasons why Khorne laughs at spaceships.
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Post by: welshhoppo
The eye of terror supports perpetual motion theory!
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Post by: Exergy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ
but not in the warp Automatically Appended Next Post: Ferros wrote:I'm curious why the IOM doesn't spend every waking moment of their lives lobbing those "Teraton" missles they have, or even the much more believeable triple-digit megaton beasts into every planet in the eye they can find.
It's not like, at the IOM's scale, the materials or science is particularly difficult. They even talk of having cloaked kill-ships they use specifically for spying. Just attach some warp-cloaked nukes on those things, and start dousing every planet worth a damn with nuclear fire.
Getting into the eye is no easy task and is not a guarenteed success even with small cloaked craft. You need the most skilled navigators and the rarest, most difficult to produce tech. Mass production is not an option.
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Post by: Bran Dawri
Yeah, to defeat Chaos Mankind has to overcome its own darker impulses, much like the Eldar have had to (and it cost them their empire before they learned).
As for the Eye of Terror, since that is essentially a huge warp storm, and the Warp is basically seething emotions, perhaps it can be becalmed if enough Buddhist priests meditate around it sending their peace and harmony its way?
(Now to find buddhist priests in 40K...)
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Post by: herpguy
Chaos isn't just something that destroys the minds of those who are weak-willed. It is pretty much a disease for all intents and purposes.
No army that is vulnerable to the warp could ever march in. Chaos forces can always just withdraw and turtle up into the EoT and be more or less completely safe.
Heck, I'm pretty positive Tau forces who marched into the EoT would fall to chaos. You don't need to have a psychic presence to fall to chaos; just a soul.
I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that a splinter fleet that flew into the EoT would come out completely mutated and daemon-infused. Not fallen to chaos, just be completely possessed by daemons.
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Post by: Harriticus
Anyone besides the Grey Knights wouldn't last in an extended campaign in the EoT. They'd go crazy. Especially the millions of Guardsmen required.
Last time the IoM sent Space Marines into the Eye almost all of them became CSM. So it just makes your situation worse.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
 Harriticus wrote:
Last time the IoM sent Space Marines into the Eye almost all of them became CSM. So it just makes your situation worse.
I came to the conclusion that most of them died and some of those who survived longer turned. That was partially due to being abandoned by the Imperium though. In this situation it would be a unified effort. Presumably there would be a great deal of planning about how to reduce influence of Chaos. Besides that, those Space Marines who turned generally seemed to have landed planetside (for some reason). If all you were trying to do was eradicate the forces of Chaos you'd likely be primarily using Exterminatus grade weapons.
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Post by: Selym
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Harriticus wrote:
Last time the IoM sent Space Marines into the Eye almost all of them became CSM. So it just makes your situation worse.
I came to the conclusion that most of them died and some of those who survived longer turned. That was partially due to being abandoned by the Imperium though. In this situation it would be a unified effort. Presumably there would be a great deal of planning about how to reduce influence of Chaos. Besides that, those Space Marines who turned generally seemed to have landed planetside (for some reason). If all you were trying to do was eradicate the forces of Chaos you'd likely be primarily using Exterminatus grade weapons.
On teleporting, semi-incorporeal daemon worlds?
Okay.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Selym wrote:
On teleporting, semi-incorporeal daemon worlds?
Not all of them are like that.
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Post by: pm713
But they're all in a place where being a physical existence is like choosing what to wear.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
pm713 wrote:But they're all in a place where being a physical existence is like choosing what to wear.
The Eye of Terror does not completely eschew the laws of the Materium. It is an area of overlap, not the raw Warp. Daemons there are not immune to conventional weaponry. Otherwise the mortal forces in the Eye would be unable to make any difference unless they were powerful Psykers. Neither would the Space Marines of the Abyssal Crusade or Tuska Daemonkilla's Waagh! have gone as far as they did.
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Post by: Vintersorg
People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
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Post by: welshhoppo
True, but the eye is a place where you can die and are reborn! Death is only the beginning when you are trapped in that purple blemish of hell. You might exterminate a planet but an identical one might take its place if the gods were offended enough. Plus destroying an entire planet? Not even an exterminatus can do that. It requires enough power to overcome the force of gravity.
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Post by: Col. Dash
Been tried, failed miserably. Fleet moved in unopposed, dropped half a million troops. Started getting reports of bad things happening. A huge daemon forged fleet appears out of nowhere and attacks heedless of loss. Fleet orbitally bombards its own troops to save them from chaos and the admiral and what few surviving ships remained limped back to fleet HQ where the Admiral opens an artifact, I forget how he obtained it, and gets sucked into the warp.
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Post by: Rune Stonegrinder
No amount of troops would be effective where real space and chaos overlap, Since deamons are created by thier gods from the warp itself.
You might be able to destroy a planet or two before traitor fleeets and gigantic spaceship sized deamons finially corner you or force you to run for it. but since your ship enters the very warp your trying to flee I don't thik you'll get far.
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Post by: Sigvatr
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: As of the 5th Edition Necron Codex the Necrons have overthrown the C'tan and shattered them into weaker Shards. They no longer (generally at least) serve them; neither do most want to exterminate all life. Besides that, even before the 5th Edition Codex the C'tan never wanted to kill everything. They wanted to farm living beings. Chaos triumphing over the galaxy would put the C'tan in a bad position anyway; their control over the Materium would mean less when the Immaterium seeps through.
I'm obviously only considerung TruCron fluff as canon. As every TruCron player does The C'tan want to farm living beings, but in the end, it all boils down to the same; them reaping weaker (read: all) races. Their minions, the Necrons, however are driven by their deep hate for all life alone and would gladly see put an end to all of it. I'm interested, though, what would happen if they succeed - can the C'Tan actually interfere with the warp? Unlike the Chaos Gods, they aren't empowered by their believers, they are gods on their own and therefore, manipulating the warp seems unlikely for them. In the end, I guess the Nightbringer simply swallows the physical universe whole or the Outsider destroys it when he fully returns from his self-chosen exile. That's one of the most interesting parts of the fluff to me - what is the relation between Chaos and Necrons when it boils down to it? Chaos cannot influence the Necrons or C'Tan in any way but on the other hand, the Necrons cannot manipulate the warp in any way (at least not in a meaningful way, they do possess abilities to suppress of weaken its physical effects). I want more lore on that! 
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Post by: Exergy
welshhoppo wrote:True, but the eye is a place where you can die and are reborn! Death is only the beginning when you are trapped in that purple blemish of hell. You might exterminate a planet but an identical one might take its place if the gods were offended enough. Plus destroying an entire planet? Not even an exterminatus can do that. It requires enough power to overcome the force of gravity.
in the eye the daemon worlds can be remade to suit the whim of Chaos. They could also be remade to resist any possible attack or remade to be rebuilt.
Destruction doesn't do much if rebuilding is so easy.
Sure you could try and kill all the CSM, but Space Marines don't die to bombardment. No where in the fluff is a Chapter, Legion, or even small band defeated by bombardment.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
welshhoppo wrote:True, but the eye is a place where you can die and are reborn! Death is only the beginning when you are trapped in that purple blemish of hell. You might exterminate a planet but an identical one might take its place if the gods were offended enough. Plus destroying an entire planet? Not even an exterminatus can do that. It requires enough power to overcome the force of gravity.
Death may only be the beginning regardless of where you die. Typically the souls of the dead enter the Warp; favoured servants of the Ruinous Powers may be brought back to life no matter where they died unless their soul is trapped (such as in a soul stone) or destroyed (such as when the Emperor destroyed Horus' soul). Still, it takes power to resurrect and the Ruinous Powers are not often obliging. After all, they'll survive regardless of what happens to the Eye of Terror. Some cyclonic torpedoes do shatter the planet (though typically something like the life-eater virus is deployed). Even if they don't destroy the planet itself killing everything on its surface is a reasonably thorough solution. It would certainly cripple the forces of Chaos.
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Post by: Mellow
I'll say it again.
Pylons. Lots and lots of pylons surrounding The Eye and as it gradually reduces in size they are brough inexorably closer and closer.
It may take "a while" but the Necrons are the only ones with the ability and time to make it happen.
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Post by: Sigvatr
But why would they do so? 
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Post by: jhe90
less competition for the people when it comes time to reap the universe?
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
 Sigvatr wrote:
The C'tan want to farm living beings, but in the end, it all boils down to the same; them reaping weaker (read: all) races. Their minions, the Necrons, however are driven by their deep hate for all life alone and would gladly see put an end to all of it. I'm interested, though, what would happen if they succeed - can the C'Tan actually interfere with the warp? Unlike the Chaos Gods, they aren't empowered by their believers, they are gods on their own and therefore, manipulating the warp seems unlikely for them. In the end, I guess the Nightbringer simply swallows the physical universe whole or the Outsider destroys it when he fully returns from his self-chosen exile.
No it doesn't. The C'tan would fight the Tyranids to prevent the eradication of all life. They'd also not want the galaxy to be enveloped by the Warp. The C'tan don't have the power to destroy the universe. Even if they actively tried it'd take too long.
Exergy wrote:in the eye the daemon worlds can be remade to suit the whim of Chaos. They could also be remade to resist any possible attack or remade to be rebuilt.
Even in the Eye the Ruinous Powers are not omnipotent.
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Post by: Exergy
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Sigvatr wrote:
Exergy wrote:in the eye the daemon worlds can be remade to suit the whim of Chaos. They could also be remade to resist any possible attack or remade to be rebuilt.
Even in the Eye the Ruinous Powers are not omnipotent.
They aren't but think of it this way. The Chaos gods can manipulate things anywhere in the galaxy, but it comes with a cost in power, energy to breach the distance between real space and the warp. The costs of doing business are higher in some places and lower in others. In the eye the cost of such manipulation is low, so low that it might be less than the cost of building and transporting a fleet of WMDs. No matter how vast the IoM is, it's resources are finite and it's ability to project power limited.
Take the US, a very large and powerful country. Building it's nuclear arsenal took decades and a huge portion of the defense budget. Maintaining it still takes a large portion of the budget. The bombs are estimated to cost about $35 million dollars each, roughly twice their weight in gold. 1% of the total budget goes to maintaining the stock of bombs. This is just for the bombs, nothing about a delivery system.
40k seems to have all sorts of horrible weapons that can end whole planets, but they would no doubt be difficult to produce and maintain.
So the IoM could create a whole slew of bombs, transport them near the eye, lose some(chaotic malfunction), have some corrupted and repurposed(turned on IoM planets) and the rest go through and do some damage, but the cost the forces of chaos would have to pay to rebuild their worlds would be low, while those weapons that were corrupted and unleased on IoM planets would inflict signifigant hardship on the Imperium.
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Post by: pm713
Because the Warp is the only thing that could possibly threaten their existence so without the Eye they'd be a lot safer in that area plus it means more safe area for them.
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Post by: Asherian Command
No they wouldn't get through the gates. There is a good reason why they don't. I.E. madness being the biggest problem. Ambushes and the biggest problem is that it is so difficult to get out and retreat.
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Post by: Banzaimash
They could. They could also catapult guardsmen at Ghazghull Thraka for all the good it would do them.
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Post by: Sigvatr
pm713 wrote:
Because the Warp is the only thing that could possibly threaten their existence so without the Eye they'd be a lot safer in that area plus it means more safe area for them.
Huh? Why is the Warp the only thing threatening them? They are completely immune to its effects, both the Necrons and the C'Tan. What actually threatens the Necrons is the destruction of their tomb worlds and that can be done with regular weaponry aka planet destroyers. Well, "regular".
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Post by: pm713
Sigvatr wrote:pm713 wrote:
Because the Warp is the only thing that could possibly threaten their existence so without the Eye they'd be a lot safer in that area plus it means more safe area for them.
Huh? Why is the Warp the only thing threatening them? They are completely immune to its effects, both the Necrons and the C'Tan. What actually threatens the Necrons is the destruction of their tomb worlds and that can be done with regular weaponry aka planet destroyers. Well, "regular".
As i remember they were weaker to warp based attacks than other attacks which was why they tried blocking the warp off. May not be canon now though.
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Post by: Galdos
MarsNZ wrote: MajorStoffer wrote:In theory, the Imperium can defeat any single foe in the setting; they've got more force than most of them combined.
I've never seen anything that remotely supports this in the fluff. The only race this is attributed to is the Orks, and even then, I don't buy it. Tyranids say hi?
This is old fluff. Its ALWAYS been that the Imperium could defeat any single foe but they cant do it because they are too busy fighting nearly 10 major enemy powers all at the same time. Even with this the Imperium is just barely holding the line (or slowly lossing ground depending on which side of the fluff you are on)
This is the same as the Orks which if they ever UNITED they could win
Or the Tyranids which if their entire fleet showed up at the exact same time they would win.
Or Chaos if the Emperor died and was not reborn.
The Eldar and Tau dont have a chance even in the best case but thats it.
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Post by: Orblivion
What kind of effect would we expect the Hive Mind/Shadow in the Warp to have on the Eye of Terror, or vice versa?
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Post by: Wyzilla
Psienesis wrote:jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such? A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
There are daemons that take the form of malefic code that can, and do, possess machines. Mindless creatures also cannot summon the force of will to resist the corrupting effects of the Warp, so what happens is all your servitors and robots start growing tentacles and twisting into mutated forms. Worse, some gain sentience... murderously malefic sentience.
Plus there's also the ability of Chaos to simply shred any ship stupid enough to either lack the psyker defenses of the Eldar (coupled with stealth) or gellar fields. And even if you have gellar fields, daemons are still capable of slamming the shield until it eventually breaks, and they pour in. Anything that enters the Immaterium is fair game for hungry daemons. Your only real defense is not drawing attentiong and fleeing the minute anything even notices you. Also, as for Tyranids, they'd just get devoured if they enter the immaterium and lose connection to the Hive Mind. They're only able to beat daemons in combat due to daemons being severely weakened by entering the materium in physical forms- it's just a matter of the Tyranids drowning them in bodies. In the Warp? If your gellar fields are down, daemons can simply turn your ship inside out and devour everything inside.
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Post by: Orblivion
 Wyzilla wrote: Psienesis wrote:jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
There are daemons that take the form of malefic code that can, and do, possess machines. Mindless creatures also cannot summon the force of will to resist the corrupting effects of the Warp, so what happens is all your servitors and robots start growing tentacles and twisting into mutated forms. Worse, some gain sentience... murderously malefic sentience.
Plus there's also the ability of Chaos to simply shred any ship stupid enough to either lack the psyker defenses of the Eldar (coupled with stealth) or gellar fields. And even if you have gellar fields, daemons are still capable of slamming the shield until it eventually breaks, and they pour in.
Anything that enters the Immaterium is fair game for hungry daemons. Your only real defense is not drawing attentiong and fleeing the minute anything even notices you. Also, as for Tyranids, they'd just get devoured if they enter the immaterium and lose connection to the Hive Mind. They're only able to beat daemons in combat due to daemons being severely weakened by entering the materium in physical forms- it's just a matter of the Tyranids drowning them in bodies. In the Warp? If your gellar fields are down, daemons can simply turn your ship inside out and devour everything inside.
Hmm, kinda close to what I meant but not exactly. The Shadow in the Warp keeps warp beings inside the warp, and for most psykers it feels as though the warp itself has been completely blocked off. So would the Shadow in the Warp have any effect on the Eye of Terror itself is what I'm asking? My guess is no because the Eye is where the warp has already broken through to the material realm, but I'm just throwing it out there for discussion.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Orblivion wrote: Wyzilla wrote: Psienesis wrote:jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
There are daemons that take the form of malefic code that can, and do, possess machines. Mindless creatures also cannot summon the force of will to resist the corrupting effects of the Warp, so what happens is all your servitors and robots start growing tentacles and twisting into mutated forms. Worse, some gain sentience... murderously malefic sentience.
Plus there's also the ability of Chaos to simply shred any ship stupid enough to either lack the psyker defenses of the Eldar (coupled with stealth) or gellar fields. And even if you have gellar fields, daemons are still capable of slamming the shield until it eventually breaks, and they pour in.
Anything that enters the Immaterium is fair game for hungry daemons. Your only real defense is not drawing attentiong and fleeing the minute anything even notices you. Also, as for Tyranids, they'd just get devoured if they enter the immaterium and lose connection to the Hive Mind. They're only able to beat daemons in combat due to daemons being severely weakened by entering the materium in physical forms- it's just a matter of the Tyranids drowning them in bodies. In the Warp? If your gellar fields are down, daemons can simply turn your ship inside out and devour everything inside.
Hmm, kinda close to what I meant but not exactly. The Shadow in the Warp keeps warp beings inside the warp, and for most psykers it feels as though the warp itself has been completely blocked off. So would the Shadow in the Warp have any effect on the Eye of Terror itself is what I'm asking? My guess is no because the Eye is where the warp has already broken through to the material realm, but I'm just throwing it out there for discussion.
Definetly not. Nids entering the Eye leave the materium completely, and thus would have their connection to the hive mind severed. Their only hope would be having enough synapse to form their own mini shadow to prevent themselves from either being routed or shredded by Daemons.
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Post by: Exergy
Orblivion wrote:
Hmm, kinda close to what I meant but not exactly. The Shadow in the Warp keeps warp beings inside the warp, and for most psykers it feels as though the warp itself has been completely blocked off. So would the Shadow in the Warp have any effect on the Eye of Terror itself is what I'm asking? My guess is no because the Eye is where the warp has already broken through to the material realm, but I'm just throwing it out there for discussion.
IIRC SITW works differently. The psykic communication floods the local real-warp connection with such a powerful communication other psykers have trouble making their own connection.
If they went into the eye, where the connection to the warp is much stronger/more accessable they would probably be shredded just like everything else.
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Post by: Psienesis
Right. SITW is not psychic null-space, the Hive Mind is not an Untouchable. It's "psychic static" caused by so many billions/trillions of minds in a given area that disrupts the "standard" signal from the Warp to Realspace (and vice versa)... but taking the "white noise generator" of the SITW into the Warp itself is a whole new ballgame. There, that static can just join the cacophony of a literally infinite number of voices gibbering madness and blasphemies within the Warp itself.
The Hive Mind itself may well be driven mad.
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Post by: Exergy
Psienesis wrote:Right. SITW is not psychic null-space, the Hive Mind is not an Untouchable. It's "psychic static" caused by so many billions/trillions of minds in a given area that disrupts the "standard" signal from the Warp to Realspace (and vice versa)... but taking the "white noise generator" of the SITW into the Warp itself is a whole new ballgame. There, that static can just join the cacophony of a literally infinite number of voices gibbering madness and blasphemies within the Warp itself.
The Hive Mind itself may well be driven mad.
worded better than I did, but I agree
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Post by: StarTrotter
Psienesis wrote:Right. SITW is not psychic null-space, the Hive Mind is not an Untouchable. It's "psychic static" caused by so many billions/trillions of minds in a given area that disrupts the "standard" signal from the Warp to Realspace (and vice versa)... but taking the "white noise generator" of the SITW into the Warp itself is a whole new ballgame. There, that static can just join the cacophony of a literally infinite number of voices gibbering madness and blasphemies within the Warp itself.
The Hive Mind itself may well be driven mad.
Imagine what would come out
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Post by: Psienesis
Daemon-bugs stretching between the stars, forming their fleets into strange and suggestive shapes that incite madness and recidivism upon the worlds that fall within their shadow.
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Post by: Kain
Note that there is no evidence for the Chaos gods stretching beyond the milky way, and as each daemon is a fragment of their parent Chaos God and the Chaos Gods are not infinite in power (otherwise Skarbrand would have never have even dented Khorne nor would the Emperor have ever been a threat), there cannot be an infinite number of Daemons.
Nor should there be, I find "Omnipotent Chaos" to be terribly boring, and the less important and central humanity (and by extension Chaos) is to the setting, the better and more diverse it is.
Nor is it supported when the official timeline of the Rhana Dhandra has Chaos burning out and dying after a balls out charge from the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror and leaving the Tyranids to devour the galaxy, who in turn leave the Necrons an empire of dust to rule until the end of time.
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Post by: Psienesis
They don't need to stretch beyond the galaxy, the Warp supersedes the constraints of physical space. It can be infinite and yet fit within a Dixie cup.
What the Eldar say is the End of Time does not make it the true End of Time. The Eldar, for all their psychic gifts, are amazingly clueless when it comes to actually reading the future accurately. Rather like Jedi and their prophecies in that.
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Post by: StarTrotter
 Kain wrote:Note that there is no evidence for the Chaos gods stretching beyond the milky way, and as each daemon is a fragment of their parent Chaos God and the Chaos Gods are not infinite in power (otherwise Skarbrand would have never have even dented Khorne nor would the Emperor have ever been a threat), there cannot be an infinite number of Daemons.
Nor should there be, I find "Omnipotent Chaos" to be terribly boring, and the less important and central humanity (and by extension Chaos) is to the setting, the better and more diverse it is.
Nor is it supported when the official timeline of the Rhana Dhandra has Chaos burning out and dying after a balls out charge from the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror and leaving the Tyranids to devour the galaxy, who in turn leave the Necrons an empire of dust to rule until the end of time.
Implying you don't want to see chaotic gribblies fusing two of the greatest horrors of 40k to then go on to consume foes both soul and flesh 
I think it's more of charging into an alternate reality defying dimension is a very bad idea in general.
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Post by: Kain
 StarTrotter wrote: Kain wrote:Note that there is no evidence for the Chaos gods stretching beyond the milky way, and as each daemon is a fragment of their parent Chaos God and the Chaos Gods are not infinite in power (otherwise Skarbrand would have never have even dented Khorne nor would the Emperor have ever been a threat), there cannot be an infinite number of Daemons.
Nor should there be, I find "Omnipotent Chaos" to be terribly boring, and the less important and central humanity (and by extension Chaos) is to the setting, the better and more diverse it is.
Nor is it supported when the official timeline of the Rhana Dhandra has Chaos burning out and dying after a balls out charge from the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror and leaving the Tyranids to devour the galaxy, who in turn leave the Necrons an empire of dust to rule until the end of time.
Implying you don't want to see chaotic gribblies fusing two of the greatest horrors of 40k to then go on to consume foes both soul and flesh
I think it's more of charging into an alternate reality defying dimension is a very bad idea in general.
Warhammer 50k called. It wants it's plot twist back. Though it was Orks and Tyranids so you had hive ships reproducing by sporing at Ork rates.
And also apparently by 60k there's something far worse than Chaos that corrupts Erebus into it's service. Began with an N or something, not the Necrons. Null...Nerx...Nihilism...I'll remember it someday.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Psienesis wrote:They don't need to stretch beyond the galaxy, the Warp supersedes the constraints of physical space. It can be infinite and yet fit within a Dixie cup.
What the Eldar say is the End of Time does not make it the true End of Time. The Eldar, for all their psychic gifts, are amazingly clueless when it comes to actually reading the future accurately. Rather like Jedi and their prophecies in that.
This. The Eldar, while exceptionally good at foretelling which side your toast will fall if you drop it, are fairly terrible at predicting events in the far future that involve Chaos. Plus there's the additional problem of Chaos having a Schrodinger existence and ignoring time completely. Not to mention time travel.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Kain wrote: StarTrotter wrote: Kain wrote:Note that there is no evidence for the Chaos gods stretching beyond the milky way, and as each daemon is a fragment of their parent Chaos God and the Chaos Gods are not infinite in power (otherwise Skarbrand would have never have even dented Khorne nor would the Emperor have ever been a threat), there cannot be an infinite number of Daemons.
Nor should there be, I find "Omnipotent Chaos" to be terribly boring, and the less important and central humanity (and by extension Chaos) is to the setting, the better and more diverse it is.
Nor is it supported when the official timeline of the Rhana Dhandra has Chaos burning out and dying after a balls out charge from the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror and leaving the Tyranids to devour the galaxy, who in turn leave the Necrons an empire of dust to rule until the end of time.
Implying you don't want to see chaotic gribblies fusing two of the greatest horrors of 40k to then go on to consume foes both soul and flesh
I think it's more of charging into an alternate reality defying dimension is a very bad idea in general.
Warhammer 50k called. It wants it's plot twist back. Though it was Orks and Tyranids so you had hive ships reproducing by sporing at Ork rates.
And also apparently by 60k there's something far worse than Chaos that corrupts Erebus into it's service. Began with an N or something, not the Necrons. Null...Nerx...Nihilism...I'll remember it someday.
Nonsense. Chaos Orkified Tyranids that fight a coalition of Necrons, Tau, IG, DE, and Eldar however the faction barely stands together frequently breaking apart due to a spreading of the flaying disease throughotu necrons, greatly weakening them, Tau and IG that fight eachother, and the trolling nature of DE and Eldar.
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Post by: Kain
Psienesis wrote:They don't need to stretch beyond the galaxy, the Warp supersedes the constraints of physical space. It can be infinite and yet fit within a Dixie cup.
What the Eldar say is the End of Time does not make it the true End of Time. The Eldar, for all their psychic gifts, are amazingly clueless when it comes to actually reading the future accurately. Rather like Jedi and their prophecies in that.
And?
The warp is calm beyond the galaxy. Too calm to travel through.
Other galaxies likely have entirely different gods or perhaps no gods at all.
It's exceedingly unlikely that the Chaos Gods we know have influence beyond the milky way, otherwise the milky way wouldn't have had any noticeable influence or effect on the nature of Chaos due to it being a drop in the bucket as far as the universe goes.
The four are great and powerful, but ultimately have their own very real limits.
And the prophecy is ultimately fitting with the nature of all three factions. Automatically Appended Next Post: StarTrotter wrote: Kain wrote: StarTrotter wrote: Kain wrote:Note that there is no evidence for the Chaos gods stretching beyond the milky way, and as each daemon is a fragment of their parent Chaos God and the Chaos Gods are not infinite in power (otherwise Skarbrand would have never have even dented Khorne nor would the Emperor have ever been a threat), there cannot be an infinite number of Daemons.
Nor should there be, I find "Omnipotent Chaos" to be terribly boring, and the less important and central humanity (and by extension Chaos) is to the setting, the better and more diverse it is.
Nor is it supported when the official timeline of the Rhana Dhandra has Chaos burning out and dying after a balls out charge from the Maelstrom and Eye of Terror and leaving the Tyranids to devour the galaxy, who in turn leave the Necrons an empire of dust to rule until the end of time.
Implying you don't want to see chaotic gribblies fusing two of the greatest horrors of 40k to then go on to consume foes both soul and flesh
I think it's more of charging into an alternate reality defying dimension is a very bad idea in general.
Warhammer 50k called. It wants it's plot twist back. Though it was Orks and Tyranids so you had hive ships reproducing by sporing at Ork rates.
And also apparently by 60k there's something far worse than Chaos that corrupts Erebus into it's service. Began with an N or something, not the Necrons. Null...Nerx...Nihilism...I'll remember it someday.
Nonsense. Chaos Orkified Tyranids that fight a coalition of Necrons, Tau, IG, DE, and Eldar however the faction barely stands together frequently breaking apart due to a spreading of the flaying disease throughotu necrons, greatly weakening them, Tau and IG that fight eachother, and the trolling nature of DE and Eldar.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_50k
Even darker than 40k.
Oh so very much darker.
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Post by: Psienesis
And and?
What goes on in other galaxies doesn't at all matter here. This is about the Hive Fleet entering the Eye of Terror. Within the confines of the Warp (confines that do not actually exist) there is an infinite number of creatures called daemons. Malignant sentiences birthed from the raw stuff of Chaos.
That the influence of the Warp ends at the edge of the Milky Way does not, in any way, define how large the Warp is while inside it (it's infinite, if it wants to be). Euclidean geometry and Einsteinian Principles of Relativity don't exist in the Warp. The basic concept of linear time does not exist in the Warp. You could remain in the Warp for a billion years, traveling at the speed of light, and never move so much as a micron. You could walk through a doorway and end up on the far side of the galaxy in the blink of an eye. You could arrive at your destination before you left your point of origin.
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Post by: Kain
Psienesis wrote:And and?
What goes on in other galaxies doesn't at all matter here. This is about the Hive Fleet entering the Eye of Terror. Within the confines of the Warp (confines that do not actually exist) there is an infinite number of creatures called daemons. Malignant sentiences birthed from the raw stuff of Chaos.
That the influence of the Warp ends at the edge of the Milky Way does not, in any way, define how large the Warp is while inside it (it's infinite, if it wants to be). Euclidean geometry and Einsteinian Principles of Relativity don't exist in the Warp. The basic concept of linear time does not exist in the Warp. You could remain in the Warp for a billion years, traveling at the speed of light, and never move so much as a micron. You could walk through a doorway and end up on the far side of the galaxy in the blink of an eye. You could arrive at your destination before you left your point of origin.
Uncountable to humans yes. Infinite? No, the gods do not have infinite power to make them.
The shadow of the full thousand devoured galaxies worth of Tyranids would more than likely snuff out the eye of terror completely and close off the gods from the materium.
These same Gods would have been permanently injured by the Emperor had they not vacated Horus, and Khorne was caused actual (if very minor) damage by Skarbrand, who is weaker than An'ggrath who in turn got his ass kicked by Lorgar.
They're not half as powerful as their worshippers like to believe. Powerful yes, but they aren't even remotely close to omnipotent.
If anything, the Hive Mind is more powerful than the Chaos Gods, being the voice of a thousand galaxies rather than the product of only the sapient portions of one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In addition, a substantial tendril of Hive Fleet kraken spent years in the warp itself after being flung there by the Eldar and wasn't even slightly mutated.
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Post by: Psienesis
Uncountable to humans yes. Infinite? No, the gods do not have infinite power to make them.
There were Daemons before there were Chaos Gods to create them. Chaos Undivided is its own sentience form, and is not beholden to the powers of the super-daemons that are the Great Four.
The shadow of the full thousand devoured galaxies worth of Tyranids would more than likely snuff out the eye of terror completely and close off the gods from the materium.
That's not at all how the SITW works.
If anything, the Hive Mind is more powerful than the Chaos Gods, being the voice of a thousand galaxies rather than the product of only the sapient portions of one.
Even if the Tyranids had destroyed 1000 galaxies, that does not make the entire Hive Fleet the sum total of those 1000 galaxies. There are a whole lotta dead-and-unrecovered Tyranids in the Milky Way alone. We have no idea what kind of destruction was visited on them in those other galaxies. That the Tyranid eventually won is not contested... but those may have been very Pyrrhic victories.
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Post by: Kain
Psienesis wrote:Uncountable to humans yes. Infinite? No, the gods do not have infinite power to make them.
There were Daemons before there were Chaos Gods to create them. Chaos Undivided is its own sentience form, and is not beholden to the powers of the super-daemons that are the Great Four.
The shadow of the full thousand devoured galaxies worth of Tyranids would more than likely snuff out the eye of terror completely and close off the gods from the materium.
That's not at all how the SITW works.
If anything, the Hive Mind is more powerful than the Chaos Gods, being the voice of a thousand galaxies rather than the product of only the sapient portions of one.
Even if the Tyranids had destroyed 1000 galaxies, that does not make the entire Hive Fleet the sum total of those 1000 galaxies. There are a whole lotta dead-and-unrecovered Tyranids in the Milky Way alone. We have no idea what kind of destruction was visited on them in those other galaxies. That the Tyranid eventually won is not contested... but those may have been very Pyrrhic victories.
And can you name how many creatures of Chaos undivided have actually done anything of note?
It would at the very least weaken any and all drawings upon the warp as it's snuffed out by an all surpassing all malevolent hunger.
Two can play at the lowball game you know?
Things like the 600-2000km long Norn-ships seen in the Valedor book would have needed the biomass of millions of worlds to create (or a void whale sized creature), and there is apparently at least one for every Hive Fleet tendril of note.
The tendril fought over at Valedor was but a one of many hundreds of such Tendrils seen in Hive Fleet Kraken which is itself dwarfed by Hive Fleet Leviathan which is itself just the tip of the iceberg.
Going by those alone, they do indeed have far more material to work with than everyone in the galaxy combined.
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Post by: morganfreeman
jhe90 wrote: thenoobbomb wrote:jhe90 wrote:If you used mostly servitors, machinery and such?
A brain dead robot cannot be turned by chaos gods, yes tech preist can but a strongly cybernetic and robotic force may stand better odds. Use a modified grey knights class cruiser with full warding, n such.
Machine Spirits and all that can be turned, too, and otherwise they can easily be disabled by scrapcode.
OK so no way round it. Basically chaos could camp in the eye and basicly be totally safe from impirial attacks. Only race I think may stand a chance is maybe necrons, they are unique in being living metal, don't,t rely on warp drives, n have as I understand no prescense chaos can use against.
Tuska and his Waaagh butchered quite a few chaos worlds before finally getting to Ork heaven.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Psienesis wrote:Uncountable to humans yes. Infinite? No, the gods do not have infinite power to make them.
There were Daemons before there were Chaos Gods to create them. Chaos Undivided is its own sentience form, and is not beholden to the powers of the super-daemons that are the Great Four.
The shadow of the full thousand devoured galaxies worth of Tyranids would more than likely snuff out the eye of terror completely and close off the gods from the materium.
That's not at all how the SITW works.
If anything, the Hive Mind is more powerful than the Chaos Gods, being the voice of a thousand galaxies rather than the product of only the sapient portions of one.
Even if the Tyranids had destroyed 1000 galaxies, that does not make the entire Hive Fleet the sum total of those 1000 galaxies. There are a whole lotta dead-and-unrecovered Tyranids in the Milky Way alone. We have no idea what kind of destruction was visited on them in those other galaxies. That the Tyranid eventually won is not contested... but those may have been very Pyrrhic victories.
Considering the nature of the tyranids actually, every victory is either phyrric or damn near close to it. The Tyranids need to generate energy, which war sucks up and neutralizes the net gain of energy Tyranids can reap. If anything, they've been losing every single battle except that against the Orks to perpetually feed them. They're also playing a even more dangerous game given the immense distances between galaxies, the void, which will drain the Tyranids of energy along the way and leave them starving and cannibalistic.
And to back you up, I'm pretty sure there's a quote somewhere of there being infinite daemons (counting Great Daemons, Lesser Daemons, and the limitless numbers of the creatures that inhabit the warp and aren't affiliated with any of the gods.)
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Post by: Exergy
Kain wrote:
Uncountable to humans yes. Infinite? No, the gods do not have infinite power to make them.
The shadow of the full thousand devoured galaxies worth of Tyranids would more than likely snuff out the eye of terror completely and close off the gods from the materium.
These same Gods would have been permanently injured by the Emperor had they not vacated Horus, and Khorne was caused actual (if very minor) damage by Skarbrand, who is weaker than An'ggrath who in turn got his ass kicked by Lorgar.
They're not half as powerful as their worshippers like to believe. Powerful yes, but they aren't even remotely close to omnipotent.
Yes infinate. There are an endless, simply endless supply of daemons on the other side. The number of daemons or power on the other side that is limiting but the strength of chaos in the material realm that limits them. Defeating daemons, killing horus, etc weakens the warp entities in real space and limits the ability to summon more into this galaxy.
Kain wrote:
If anything, the Hive Mind is more powerful than the Chaos Gods, being the voice of a thousand galaxies rather than the product of only the sapient portions of one.
The hive mind is a connection of a bunch of bugs, not a immaterial force that exists purely in the warp.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Here's a dark eldar raid into the eye of terror:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Raid_on_Adraith
I hear the Eldar regularly raid maiden worlds in there too in an attempt to get soulstones.
...I wouldn't go in too deep or stick around for long though or else you'll get your butt kicked (like that Dark Eldar raid eventually did)
It is noticeable that the Abyssal Crusade DID purge many worlds in the eye. The cost of all those space marine chapters (and corresponding increase in Chaos warbands) wasn't worth it, though.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Tyranids are indeed the single greatest faction of finite numbers, blowing all other factions combined out of the water.
Chaos, however, happens to be infinite.
Tyranids don't seem to feed Chaos with their primal, relentless, hunger-focused mass consciousness, though, so if the Tyranids nom everyone else Chaos would lose in the end.
They are definitely the two largest players for galaxy dominance, eclipsing even the third place holder, the Necrons.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Aha. Found what I've been looking for a while, big gigantic pile of quotes and statements of Chaos being pretty much untouchable in W40K beyond high tier entities like the GEOM, and even he's just holding back the apocalypse from spilling forth. Invading the Eye of Terror is suicide if you attract attention, not to mention pointless. Losses will be recovered instantly or may have never happened in the first place. You might never even reach your destination, be spat out on the other side of the Milky Way, shunted into another universe, obliterated with a thought, erased, etc. And no damage will likely even be much of a threat or was even a threat in the first place. Time doesn't even exist, the existence of the physical is simply a whim and not an absolute rule. Invading a dimension where physical laws are merely an opinion, not fact, is poor tactical move that will swiftly lead to your destruction.
The warp is the multi/omniverse(or is connected to them)
"The forms the live-things called Chaos, in their limited little ways of perceiving the omni-verse, swarmed and thrived in this infinite ocean of mind and emotion. The daemon moved with Stele. Waiting, waiting and watching for the moment when the thrashing and chattering of the quarry was at its peak. Only then would it strike, lapping up the absolute perfection of its fear, sinking in rending teeth, tearing it to soul- shreds."
Pg.106 Deus Sanguinius
“A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus
Thoughts can destroy or create thousands of universes in the warp
"Here in the Great Ocean, he could be whatever he wanted to be; nothing was forbidden and anything was possible.
Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?"
Pg.712 A Thousand Sons
Chaos is older than time
All around him, he could hear the sounds of the future, of warfare and death. The thought that he shared the guilt of the destruction of the Emperor’s dream was the greatest shame and sorrow he had ever known.
An end to it all would be a blessed relief.
‘Oblivion,’ he whispered as he closed his eyes. ‘Do it. End me.’
The barriers in Fulgrim’s mind dropped and he felt the elation of a creature older than time as it poured into the void in his soul. No sooner had its touch claimed his flesh for its own than he knew he had made the worst mistake of his life.
Fulgrim screamed as he fought to keep it out, but it was already too late.
His consciousness was crushed into the dark, unused corners of his mind, forever to be a mute witness to the havoc wrought by his body’s new master.
One moment Fulgrim was a primarch, one of the Emperor’s Children, the next he was a thing of Chaos."
Pg.757 Fulgrim
"A terrible, ageless scream of frustration filled the chamber, echoing throughout all the realms of existence simultaneously as a creature older than time was thwarted in its ambitions."
Pg.619 Descent of Angels
"All I can tell you is that the warp is beyond the comprehension of you or I, and things exist in its fathomless depths that are older than time as we know it.’"
Pg.359 Battle For the Abyss
Schrodinger's Slaanesh/Chaos
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the material universe. In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slannesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed at all
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 16
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cuase then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always exsted in the Warp, and yet had never existed.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition, pg.7
The sheer mind-boggling impossibiliry of the Warp defies
explanation, and those who attempt to delve further into
understanding its ways inevitably slip into madness. Of the
little that is known is that Warp space does not conform to the
laws of physics as we know them.
-Warhamer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg. 144
It is a hurning ocean of chaos, raw emotion and madness given form, where the laws of physics, time and nature are meaningless concepts and nothing is as it seems.
-Warhammer 40k 4th Edition Rulebook pg. 122
In warp space there is no time, no distances, only a constantly flowing stream of immaterium.
-Battle Fleet Gothic Rulebook, pg. 85
It is a roiling, howling maelstorm of force and energy, utterly unpredictable and not subject to the rational laws and linear flow of time in the way that physical reality is.
-Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal, pg. 16
Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 6
Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 4
Timeless and ever-shifting, this psychic visionscape is known as the Realm of Chaos
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space.
--Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
The Empy holding reality against Chaos consuming the universe throughout space time.
"His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.
If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 5th Edition rulebook, pg.101
Physically fettered, chained atop mountainous banks of
machinery, the Emperor's mind stretches out through space
and time - a light in a vast gulf of blackness.
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg.134
"Today, as for every day since that battle, the Emperor lives only by the immeasurable force of his supreme will. The stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the machine known as the Golden Throne preserve his broken and decayed body; his great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technology. His immense psychic Powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting Mankind across the enemy-strewn galaxy, a beacon of light in the malevolent darkness.
If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consurning Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg.137
"Daemons are destruction and anarchy incarnate and they lust after the flesh, blood and very souls of living creatures. They want only to destroy, to drag any living essence they can capture back to their shadowy realm, to obliterate the material universe and engulf it within Warp space."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 144
"They are never sated. The abominations from the Warp will not rest untii they have consumed not just Mankind, but the universe as well. All will be ruin; all will be Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 234
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Post by: Metaljunx
Many races tried before even orks .
83194
Post by: EmpNortonII
Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Who are the Chaos Gods of love, joy, happiness, and contentment?
Is there a Chaos God of eating bacon?
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Post by: Wyzilla
Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
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Post by: Melissia
Orks succeeded of course, but that's because Orks always succeed.
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Post by: EmpNortonII
Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
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Post by: StarTrotter
 EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
Denying the Necron's victory, forgetting most places the warp is probably rather calm. Please, Necrons are god mode
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Post by: Wyzilla
EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 Melissia wrote:Orks succeeded of course, but that's because Orks always succeed.
Depends on who you ask.
Ask any Ork and they will agree with you.
An Imperial onlooker would insist that they lost- they were pwned pretty badly by the Blood Prince.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Orks don't enjoy dying, they merely accept it as an inevitability.
So I wouldn't consider Tuska's plight to be a victory for the orks, to be honest.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
BlaxicanX wrote:Orks don't enjoy dying, they merely accept it as an inevitability.
So I wouldn't consider Tuska's plight to be a victory for the orks, to be honest.
Well he did find eternal war...
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Post by: Melissia
In his view it's a victory.
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Post by: EmpNortonII
Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
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Post by: Exergy
Melissia wrote:Orks succeeded of course, but that's because Orks always succeed.
Goal posts move closer for orks sometimes
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Post by: Formosa
Surprised that no one gas mentioned that chaos is linked to every reality and dimension through the warp, we also know that the warp extends past the milky way as imperial ships have tried to go past the rim but the light of the astronomnicon doesn't extend that far, no warp no light so it must extend past the milky way
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Post by: StarTrotter
EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
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Post by: Wyzilla
EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
Cthulhu's nothing in the Cthulhu Mythos. He's simply the high priest and descendent of Azathoth. The entities that truly matter are the Other Gods- Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, etc. Cthulhu's merely a high priest of the Other Gods and not a god itself, just an abominaion spawn of Azathoth, similar to Hercules and other Demigods.
And sentient life does not immediately cause Chaos to come knocking, it takes emotional sentient life connected to the warp such as Eldar or Humans to draw Chaos' attention. Given that it is only now that Tyranids have developed psyker units such as Zooanthropes by consuming life in the Milky Way, it's fairly easy to conclude that there is thus no life similar to Eldar or Humans anywhere else in the universe, just organisms such as Orks. Bu no, the Tyranids are not capable of even touching Chaos given the statements of Chaos hilariously outstrip the power of the Tyranids. Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent within the warp, and capable of ripping its way into the Materium if-so-wished given that they previously tore their way into the Materium during the decay of the Eldar Empire, while also the Emperor was alive and well.
Now the only thing providing any true fight against Chaos is the God Emperor, although things also get complicated given the schrodinger nature of the warp. The Chaos Gods have always existed for eternity despite having a set birthdate in the Materium of the 40K universe, but yet have retconned themselves to have always existed. If the GEOM is similar at all to warp entities like the Chaos Gods, then one can assume that the GEOM also exhibits the Schrodinger's god traits. Meaning the God Emperor has always been fighting Chaos.
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Post by: TheRedWingArmada
I'll just mention real quick that no less than 30 Space Marine chapters tried that once, and about half of them ended up joining Chaos. Another third of them outright died and what was left came back and killed Saint Basillius for playing pranks on them.
Space Marines don't have a good sense of humour about things like the Warp.
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Post by: Melissia
Not really. Orks have very clear goalposts, as stated in their codices-- they like to fight. As long as they have war, they win, since war is all they want.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Melissia wrote:Not really. Orks have very clear goalposts, as stated in their codices-- they like to fight. As long as they have war, they win, since war is all they want.
To be fair, Melissia has a point. From a guard point, you'd say that it was a failure but... look at it! The orks, the same orks, every single day get to fight. Death? That inconvenient factor that means they can't fight anymore? Gone. It is the truest victory for Orks possible 
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Melissia wrote: As long as they have war, they win, since war is all they want.
Unless theyre fighting Tau, in which case they die pissed off and buttmad because the Tau refuse to fight Orks the way they think war should be fought.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Melissia wrote:Not really. Orks have very clear goalposts, as stated in their codices-- they like to fight. As long as they have war, they win, since war is all they want.
Technically speaking, those Orks stuck in the Warp on the Daemon World owned by Khorne are in absolute heaven. They may always lose, but the fight never ends. Khorne and Orks are truly a match made in heaven.
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Post by: Psienesis
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
In 40K terms, Cthulhu is a powerfully-psychic Xeno from a long-dead civilization, but is otherwise not particularly powerful in the setting. Things like Cthulhu reside in the Ghoul Stars, and are kept there (and have been kept there) by a line of Space Marine-held Fortress Worlds at its rim.
Also, R'lyeh was supposedly sunken in the Pacific ocean. In the era of 40K, there are no more oceans on Terra. R'lyeh isn't/wasn't there. So either the God-Emperor (or some other figure lost to the mists of time) destroyed the Sleeping Lord sometime prior to the Unification Wars on Terra, or Cthulhu already awoke and returned to the stars... and did not, obviously, devour humanity.
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Post by: Melissia
BlaxicanX wrote: Melissia wrote: As long as they have war, they win, since war is all they want.
Unless theyre fighting Tau, in which case they die pissed off and buttmad because the Tau refuse to fight Orks the way they think war should be fought.
Nope, they just come back with bigger gunz and more dakka and show the Tau how to properly fight.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Nah, they just get pissed off and die. Tau and forces that use guerrilla tactics genuinely piss Orks off according to fluff, and they don't respond it to very competently.
I suppose that's why the Old Ones created two races. The Orks smash things up and are dick at dealing with subterfuge. Eldar are frail fragile flowers but are quick and can fight asymmetrically.
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Post by: Melissia
BlaxicanX wrote:Nah, they just get pissed off and die. Tau and forces that use guerrilla tactics genuinely piss Orks off according to fluff
Nah. Not according to Ork fluff.
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Post by: ThePrimordial
Couldnt you just kill orks on concrete on steel so the spores couldn't take root?
Or just kill them with Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers?
There's a reason they aren't a threat on the level of Chaos or Tyranids
How is this thread ongoing.
The answer is hell no the Imperium can't. Cause Daemons on thier worlds could just say "those battleships in my atmosphere? They're blown up now. Now back to the rape".
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Post by: StarTrotter
To be technical, there are simply not enough Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers to reliably kill all the orks not to mention destroy every single spore that comes out. Add to that orks work on the same bs logic as everything else and would likely somehow find some nutrients to feed on.
Back to the question.... Could the IOM launch an offensive operation? Yes. Yes they can. In fact, they have before. That said, I am not mentioning an important caveat. It's an absolutely terrible idea! SM are less corruptable than IG and the crusade they did ended in a complete disaster that arguably gave more to chaos than lost.
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Post by: ThePrimordial
StarTrotter wrote:To be technical, there are simply not enough Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers to reliably kill all the orks not to mention destroy every single spore that comes out. Add to that orks work on the same bs logic as everything else and would likely somehow find some nutrients to feed on.
Back to the question.... Could the IOM launch an offensive operation? Yes. Yes they can. In fact, they have before. That said, I am not mentioning an important caveat. It's an absolutely terrible idea! SM are less corruptable than IG and the crusade they did ended in a complete disaster that arguably gave more to chaos than lost.
Isnt it being a bad enough idea to make Chaos stronger, make it a non possibility?
What other race has that stupid of bs?
That could be a reason forge worlds can be casually cleansed of orks due to all the concrete and steel.
Like in Space Marine.
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Post by: EmpNortonII
StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
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Post by: StarTrotter
EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
But arguably nothing to the scale of the Imperium. Perhaps armies more akin to our modern day society. We just really don't know. That and GW sucks at statistics. As per chaos, not quite. Plunging them doesn't really mean death to humans. There are humans that live on Daemon Worlds all the time in reality so that claim doesn't quite work. Also if they kill themselves all becomes peace in an eternal balance.
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Post by: ThePrimordial
EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
y
What?
Emotions would still exist if humanity was in the warp. Only difference is the Gods would be closer to thier food.
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Post by: StarTrotter
 ThePrimordial wrote: StarTrotter wrote:To be technical, there are simply not enough Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers to reliably kill all the orks not to mention destroy every single spore that comes out. Add to that orks work on the same bs logic as everything else and would likely somehow find some nutrients to feed on.
Back to the question.... Could the IOM launch an offensive operation? Yes. Yes they can. In fact, they have before. That said, I am not mentioning an important caveat. It's an absolutely terrible idea! SM are less corruptable than IG and the crusade they did ended in a complete disaster that arguably gave more to chaos than lost.
Isnt it being a bad enough idea to make Chaos stronger, make it a non possibility?
What other race has that stupid of bs?
That could be a reason forge worlds can be casually cleansed of orks due to all the concrete and steel.
Like in Space Marine.
To be fair, SM was a fun game. That said, the single SM slaughtered hundreds if not thousands of orks, grots, and squigs, killed a warboss solo and ork hordes, healed by slaughtering enemies in GLORIOUS CLOSE COMBAT, killed dozens or more of cultists, murderized a ton of Bloodletters (I still don't know why these sorcerers so frequently summon Khorne in relic games), killed dozens of CSM, and managed to kill a recently formed Daemon Prince all the while resisting the warp entirely.
As per race that does something so stupid.... to be fair, inept bureacracy+secretly heretic judge = all according to plans
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Melissia wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Nah, they just get pissed off and die. Tau and forces that use guerrilla tactics genuinely piss Orks off according to fluff
Nah. Not according to Ork fluff.
Examples?
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Post by: Melissia
The fact that you need examples regarding Orks liking dakka on a website called dakkadakka says much about your (lack of) knowledge fo the lore.
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Post by: illuknisaa
War of Dakka
"the Tau high command were shocked to the core"
"Tau forces trapped and outmaneuvered."
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Melissia wrote:The fact that you need examples regarding Orks liking dakka on a website called dakkadakka says much about your (lack of) knowledge fo the lore.
We've actually had this discussion before, a couple of months ago in fact. You lost then, just like you're going to lose now. I have no doubt that the orks "like dakka". The assertion you're making is that they enjoy fighting Tau and can handle their tactics. That's wrong on both accounts. I was waiting for you to bring up the War of Dakka, the only moment in Ork fluff where they ever hold their own against Tau, so that I could inform you (again) that the War of Dakka is over in the fluff as of the Farsight Enclaves supplement, ending with Farsight saying "I aint got time for this gak" and decapitating the warboss after routing his forces and wiping the orks off the face of the planet. It's noted in both the Ork codex and the Tyranid codex that guerrilla tactics "frustrate" and "infuriate" Orks, to the point where they get pissed off enough to lose their judgement and make mistakes, hence Skarfang's eventual assassination at the hands of the Tyranids. So we have codex fluff stating that they don't like hit and run attacks, and there's yet to be any provided instances of Orks ever defeating the Tau in a war. So what is this sooper-dooper secret fluff you're holding to your chest that says otherwise? Edit- Ah, there we go. Thanks illuknisaaMade.
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Post by: Melissia
BlaxicanX wrote:I have no doubt that the orks "like dakka". The assertion you're making is that they enjoy fighting
If you had ended your post here, you'd have been correct.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
I'm still correct, as that wasn't your assertion, madame. Either that or you suck at articulating your points. *blackgirlheadswivel
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Post by: Melissia
I don't respect you enough to let you redefine my assertions for me. I asserted exactly what I said.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
I know you did. Hence, your assertion that orks don't do anything but get mad and die at the hands of Tau in the fluff is incorrect.
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Post by: Melissia
BlaxicanX wrote:I know you did. Hence, your assertion that orks don't do anything but get mad and die at the hands of Tau in the fluff is incorrect.
My assertion is that Orks like war and fighting. Yes, even sneaky fighting (they have an entire clan dedicated to it in fact). This is such a fundamental aspect of Ork lore that, given the fact that I dislike you and don't respect you, I have no intention of debating you on it. Your ignorance is its own testament to itself. edit: On a more pleasant note, the image in your signature is broken. Figure you'd like to know.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
You like and respect me though, right?
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Post by: Ashiraya
Everyone does.
Look at you, how could someone not love that face?
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Melissia wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:I know you did. Hence, your assertion that orks don't do anything but get mad and die at the hands of Tau in the fluff is incorrect.
My assertion is that Orks like war and fighting. Yes, even sneaky fighting (they have an entire clan dedicated to it in fact). This is such a fundamental aspect of Ork lore that, given the fact that I dislike you and don't respect you, I have no intention of debating you on it. Your ignorance is its own testament to itself. edit: On a more pleasant note, the image in your signature is broken. Figure you'd like to know.
What assertion have I made that you're disagreeing with, then? Also, why do you dislike me? And thank you. It'll start working on its own in a few days, my bandwidth is exceeded.
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Post by: EmpNortonII
StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
But arguably nothing to the scale of the Imperium. Perhaps armies more akin to our modern day society. We just really don't know. That and GW sucks at statistics. As per chaos, not quite. Plunging them doesn't really mean death to humans. There are humans that live on Daemon Worlds all the time in reality so that claim doesn't quite work. Also if they kill themselves all becomes peace in an eternal balance.
The Tyranids developed weapons advanced enough that the Ultramarines had to develop new tactics to beat them- the Ultramarines... did... something... NEW!
Besides, they possessed organisms capable of facing down space ships- they've clearly fought space-faring enemies before.
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah, that's definitely a good point regarding space combat.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Psienesis wrote:... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
In 40K terms, Cthulhu is a powerfully-psychic Xeno from a long-dead civilization, but is otherwise not particularly powerful in the setting. Things like Cthulhu reside in the Ghoul Stars, and are kept there (and have been kept there) by a line of Space Marine-held Fortress Worlds at its rim.
Also, R'lyeh was supposedly sunken in the Pacific ocean. In the era of 40K, there are no more oceans on Terra. R'lyeh isn't/wasn't there. So either the God-Emperor (or some other figure lost to the mists of time) destroyed the Sleeping Lord sometime prior to the Unification Wars on Terra, or Cthulhu already awoke and returned to the stars... and did not, obviously, devour humanity.
Nah, Cthulhu's easily on par with a Greater Daemon if not leagues beyond it (he's multi dimensional), but I'd put him on par with somebody like say, Magnus realizing his full potential and turning into a Primarch version of Dak'ir. Cthulhu though would certainly get his ass kick fighting the GEOM or Chaos though, even if he's truly immortal and cannot die. Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth though, now that's a completely different story.
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Post by: Wyzilla
EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh.
(Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)
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Post by: Selym
 Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh.
(Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)
And given that the other three main gods can make even Slaanesh look embarrassingly weak 7 years out of a month, there isn't much you can do. Unless you're the Emprah and Creed playing "10th Dimensional, Multi-Universal, Time-Travelling Paradox Poker. 7th Edition."
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Post by: Ratius
Not with the other current threats and operations going on (Nids, Cron worlds, Tau, Ork incursions).
Sure, hypothetically its possible but realistically the IOM is stretched so very thin at the moment especially considering GW's "end times" theme.
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Post by: EmpNortonII
Selym wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones.
As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending.
You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts.
To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else.
... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die.
While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh.
(Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)
And given that the other three main gods can make even Slaanesh look embarrassingly weak 7 years out of a month, there isn't much you can do. Unless you're the Emprah and Creed playing "10th Dimensional, Multi-Universal, Time-Travelling Paradox Poker. 7th Edition."
If Chaos was half as powerful as you want it to be, the Galaxy would not have made it 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy- simple as that. Reality would be completely over-run by demons.
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Post by: Wyzilla
EmpNortonII wrote: Selym wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: StarTrotter wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote: EmpNortonII wrote: Wyzilla wrote:Vintersorg wrote:People please, Chaos feeds an ALL emotions, not just the negative (for whom?) ones. As long there is emotional activity in the Universe, there will be Chaos gods.
Not just that. It feeds on other universes as well. Plus Chaos, and the Warp itself, ignores time and causality itself. Chaos is unlikely to ever be going anywhere from the Warp.
Yes, Chaos is everywhere. There's just one problem with using that fact to extrapolate that Chaos is unending. You see, the Tyranids have devoured galaxies where Chaos did jack to stop them. They're the biggest kid on the 40k block.
And there is no reason to even think that twelve galaxies sacked by the Tyranids held any civilizations even remotely as interesting or as powerful as those contained in the Milky Way. Plus Chaos seems to care little for the Tyranids and only is interested in the main sources of its entertainment, Humanity and Eldar. Chaos is also multiuniversal and thus has no need to even truly care about the Tyranids considering they're not very emotional, nor are they much of a threat. The only thing really tying them to the Milky Way is the GEOM, who, if he operates like the Chaos Gods, who have always existed and came before everything while never existing, the GEOM has always been fighting Chaos and holding them back, just as Chaos has always been fighting him. If Chaos ever truly wanted to "win", it would simply rip holes into the materium across the Galaxy like during the death of the empire(s) DAOT humanity ruled as their FTL was rendered useless by warpstorms and rifts. To understand the nature of Chaos, I'd suggest reading into the works of H.P. Lovecraft for a damned good description of the nature of incomprehensible eldritch abominations. The only real guess we have to the desire of the Chaos Gods is entertainment, a source of laughter while playing the Great Game. It's the only explanation for the behavior of the Chaos Gods in such instances as abandoning their greatest champions upon the moment of victory, feeding their own false information, and champions such as Abaddon failing to reap true victories. All Chaos wants is the status quo of war to continue.
The galaxies, if they possessed sentient life at all, held Chaos... and likely, rifts to the Immaterium like the EoT. While Chaos may care little for the Tyranids, the reverse does not hold true. The Tyranids destroy Chaos the same as they destroy everything else. ... and mighty C'thulhu is sleeping. He's not forced to fail because victory means non-existence. He will rise and consume humanity- something Chaos simply cannot do.
.... huh? We have no clue about the alternate galaxies that Nids have consumed. Along with that, how does victory mean chaos dies? They want to plunge reality into the warp or, at least, the Milky Way into the warp not slaughter all of humanity (that was Nids and Old Crons thing)
If they plunge reality into the Warp, the emotions that sustain them cease to exist, and thus the Chaos Gods die. While we don't know much about those galaxies, we do know a lot about Chaos, and it's always-corrupting-everywhere nature. The Tyranids obviously faced resistance in those galaxies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have evolved the weapons they did- you don't need venom cannons to kill deer, after all.
Are you literate? I already posted a massive collection of quotes from the BRB and Codices stating that Chaos is multiuniversal, omnipotent, undefeatable, eternal, and causality ignoring. They operate on a completely different scale than the Tyranids. Do you even understand what causality ignoring and occupying a Schrodinger state of existence means? They're invincible by anything else in 40K save another warp entity similar to them and much greater in power (which will be damn near impossible to ever do, thanks Eldar). Hell even if you did harm them it wouldn't do anything as, due to the lack of causality itself in the warp, they'd be unharmed. Hell you could even blow up the Milky Way and they'd be unfazed, they'd just move over to another one of the numerous universes they're connected for food and entertainment. At least the Eldar actually have a legitimate claim to being a threat to Chaos if they ever indeed do creat Ynnead, and even that may not work given Ynnead being composed of laughably fewer souls than Slaanesh. (Numbers for the Eldar Empire pre-fall are absolutely insane. They could have quite likely outnumbered the ORKS.)
And given that the other three main gods can make even Slaanesh look embarrassingly weak 7 years out of a month, there isn't much you can do. Unless you're the Emprah and Creed playing "10th Dimensional, Multi-Universal, Time-Travelling Paradox Poker. 7th Edition."
If Chaos was half as powerful as you want it to be, the Galaxy would not have made it 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy- simple as that. Reality would be completely over-run by demons.
Except that Chaos actively combats itself and there is no reason to ever think why Chaos would actually want to win. It's against its nature. Or do you really not see the bigger picture at all? What one faction is omniscient? What one faction is eternal and has been playing this game before time or space existed? What faction actually gains from the meta of 40K? What one faction has manipulated events so now the galaxy has fallen into permanent, unending war? Chaos. Or more specifically, the Chaos Gods.
31
Post by: nobody
StarTrotter wrote: ThePrimordial wrote: StarTrotter wrote:To be technical, there are simply not enough Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers to reliably kill all the orks not to mention destroy every single spore that comes out. Add to that orks work on the same bs logic as everything else and would likely somehow find some nutrients to feed on.
Back to the question.... Could the IOM launch an offensive operation? Yes. Yes they can. In fact, they have before. That said, I am not mentioning an important caveat. It's an absolutely terrible idea! SM are less corruptable than IG and the crusade they did ended in a complete disaster that arguably gave more to chaos than lost.
Isnt it being a bad enough idea to make Chaos stronger, make it a non possibility?
What other race has that stupid of bs?
That could be a reason forge worlds can be casually cleansed of orks due to all the concrete and steel.
Like in Space Marine.
(I still don't know why these sorcerers so frequently summon Khorne in relic games)
Easy answer: they look the most like the modern view of demons.
Compare with living boogers, walking censor bars, and little capering imps.
Though the Fire Warrior game did include a Lord Of Change as the final boss.
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Post by: TheRedWingArmada
EmpNortonII wrote:If Chaos was half as powerful as you want it to be, the Galaxy would not have made it 10,000 years after the Horus Heresy- simple as that. Reality would be completely over-run by demons.
False. In fact, one could argue that Chaos dominated a large part of the Universe before the Eye of Terror was born with Slaanesh, which also saw the Eldar get eaten right between supper and dance time.
On top of that, there is a reason why it is called "The Great Game." Yeah, the Imperium is fighting a war of survival, and the Chaos Gods are playing "a GAME."
Think of it this way; If you found out someone was playing a game with you and you were trying to survive, wouldn't you realize that at any point they could just snap your neck and be done with the game? They won't, because then it's not fun anymore, and this is pretty much what the Chaos Gods are doing to the Imperium.
There is also a reason they are called "Gods," and not...y'know....Shards...or any of the other misnomers for the other races presumed demi-figures or what have you. Example: Avatar of Khaine getting choked to death and his brass face punched in by an upset Fulgrim. Not very godly, if you ask me. >>
Of course then you have asshatery like Draigo snorting warp dust and stumbling around the Immaterium like a drunkard, ruining things like this, but w/e. Draigo is one man and despite these Odyssian epics he's supposed to have gone on (like carving Janus into Mortarions [was it heart or forehead?]). Is there anyone that believes he was capable of that, or that Nurgle wouldn't have tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Uuuuuuh....you know you're standing in my Garden, right?"
THOSE kinds of plot hooks are what lets the Imperium believe it can talk down to Chaos. That and GW outright loathing Chaos players. I think the global campaign for Cadia really screwed them up in their own heads. How else do you explain the Astra Militarum, Astra Tempestus, and the new Imperial Knights? XD Seriously Imperium, you're insecurity is showing. You took on three new armies + rules, books, w/e....and Chaos still has exactly TWO (that's not counting Forgeworld). One could argue Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion, but is there any Chaos player out there that thinks both of those supplements couldn't be better represented? And even then, Chaos is still looking at like 4 books to what...8? 9 Imperial factions?
Ya'll double us in everything. lol
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Post by: Wyzilla
Except the BRB itself disagrees with you. Chaos is multiuniversal, ignores causality/occupies a Schrodinger state of existence, is older than universe, and omnipotent within the warp. Plus one of the Chaos Gods is flat out Omniscient, Tzeentch.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Wyzilla wrote:
Except the BRB itself disagrees with you. Chaos is multiuniversal, ignores causality/occupies a Schrodinger state of existence, is older than universe, and omnipotent within the warp. Plus one of the Chaos Gods is flat out Omniscient, Tzeentch.
A BRB ?
There is a small red and white one right now...... Or precisely :  page
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Post by: Wyzilla
The warp is the multi/omniverse(or is connected to them)
"The forms the live-things called Chaos, in their limited little ways of perceiving the omni-verse, swarmed and thrived in this infinite ocean of mind and emotion. The daemon moved with Stele. Waiting, waiting and watching for the moment when the thrashing and chattering of the quarry was at its peak. Only then would it strike, lapping up the absolute perfection of its fear, sinking in rending teeth, tearing it to soul- shreds."
Pg.106 Deus Sanguinius
“A miss indicates that the missile has left Warpspace at the wrong point – and this could be anywhere in any of the million universes.”
pg.37 Adeptus Titanicus
Thoughts can destroy or create thousands of universes in the warp
"Here in the Great Ocean, he could be whatever he wanted to be; nothing was forbidden and anything was possible.
Worlds flashed past him as he hurtled through the swelling tides of colour, light and dimensions without name. The roiling chaos of the aether was a playground for titanic forces, where entire universes could be created and destroyed with a random thought. How many trillions of potential lives were birthed and snuffed out just by thinking such things?"
Pg.712 A Thousand Sons
Chaos is older than time
All around him, he could hear the sounds of the future, of warfare and death. The thought that he shared the guilt of the destruction of the Emperor’s dream was the greatest shame and sorrow he had ever known.
An end to it all would be a blessed relief.
‘Oblivion,’ he whispered as he closed his eyes. ‘Do it. End me.’
The barriers in Fulgrim’s mind dropped and he felt the elation of a creature older than time as it poured into the void in his soul. No sooner had its touch claimed his flesh for its own than he knew he had made the worst mistake of his life.
Fulgrim screamed as he fought to keep it out, but it was already too late.
His consciousness was crushed into the dark, unused corners of his mind, forever to be a mute witness to the havoc wrought by his body’s new master.
One moment Fulgrim was a primarch, one of the Emperor’s Children, the next he was a thing of Chaos."
Pg.757 Fulgrim
"A terrible, ageless scream of frustration filled the chamber, echoing throughout all the realms of existence simultaneously as a creature older than time was thwarted in its ambitions."
Pg.619 Descent of Angels
"All I can tell you is that the warp is beyond the comprehension of you or I, and things exist in its fathomless depths that are older than time as we know it.’"
Pg.359 Battle For the Abyss
Schrodinger's Slaanesh/Chaos
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the material universe. In the Warp, things are different, for the Immaterium is not bound by linear time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. As his rival gods reckon it, Slannesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed at all
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 16
That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cuase then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always exsted in the Warp, and yet had never existed.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition, pg.7
The sheer mind-boggling impossibiliry of the Warp defies
explanation, and those who attempt to delve further into
understanding its ways inevitably slip into madness. Of the
little that is known is that Warp space does not conform to the
laws of physics as we know them.
-Warhamer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg. 144
It is a hurning ocean of chaos, raw emotion and madness given form, where the laws of physics, time and nature are meaningless concepts and nothing is as it seems.
-Warhammer 40k 4th Edition Rulebook pg. 122
In warp space there is no time, no distances, only a constantly flowing stream of immaterium.
-Battle Fleet Gothic Rulebook, pg. 85
It is a roiling, howling maelstorm of force and energy, utterly unpredictable and not subject to the rational laws and linear flow of time in the way that physical reality is.
-Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal, pg. 16
Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 6th Edition pg. 6
Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or casuality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds.
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 4
Timeless and ever-shifting, this psychic visionscape is known as the Realm of Chaos
-Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space.
--Codex: Chaos Daemons 5th Edition pg. 6
The Empy holding reality against Chaos consuming the universe throughout space time.
"His immense psychic powers envelop and protect Mankind across the entire galaxy. His consciousness wanders through Warp space, warring against the Daemons that inhabit it, keeping closed the doors between this world and the next.
If the Emperor fails then the Daemons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind and the stuff of Warp space will submerge the galaxy. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 5th Edition rulebook, pg.101
Physically fettered, chained atop mountainous banks of
machinery, the Emperor's mind stretches out through space
and time - a light in a vast gulf of blackness.
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition Rulebook, pg.134
"Today, as for every day since that battle, the Emperor lives only by the immeasurable force of his supreme will. The stasis fields and psi-fusion reactors of the machine known as the Golden Throne preserve his broken and decayed body; his great mind endures inside a rotting carcass, kept alive by the mysteries of ancient technology. His immense psychic Powers reach out from the Golden Throne, enveloping and protecting Mankind across the enemy-strewn galaxy, a beacon of light in the malevolent darkness.
If the Emperor fails, then none will be able to stop the influx of the dark powers; ravenous and all-consurning Daemons will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of Mankind. Reality as it is known will be subsumed by the stuff of Warp space - a realm of nightmares and cruel insanity where all life will end. There will be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg.137
"Daemons are destruction and anarchy incarnate and they lust after the flesh, blood and very souls of living creatures. They want only to destroy, to drag any living essence they can capture back to their shadowy realm, to obliterate the material universe and engulf it within Warp space."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 144
"They are never sated. The abominations from the Warp will not rest untii they have consumed not just Mankind, but the universe as well. All will be ruin; all will be Chaos."
-Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook, pg. 234
In the sixth edition, coupled with the Daemons Codex and multiple black library novels. There's also probably sentences littered about the 7th Edition, but I haven't gotten to picking through the fluff parts yet.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...
73007
Post by: Grimskul
 Bobthehero wrote:Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...
Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.
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Post by: StarTrotter
 Grimskul wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...
Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.
I miss when the fluff still mentioned other minor and medium chaos gods as well as the Enslaver plague. It just gave so much more peril to the warp instead of 4 Chaos gods and then Gork and Mork or was it Gork and Mork?
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Post by: Wyzilla
StarTrotter wrote: Grimskul wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...
Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.
I miss when the fluff still mentioned other minor and medium chaos gods as well as the Enslaver plague. It just gave so much more peril to the warp instead of 4 Chaos gods and then Gork and Mork or was it Gork and Mork?
Don't forget the Eldar gods. There's only two that truly remain, but they still count even if one is held captive by Nurgle. They really do need to inflate the amount of Chaos Gods though, or at least bring in more unique entities like Be'lakor and Malice.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Wyzilla wrote: StarTrotter wrote: Grimskul wrote: Bobthehero wrote:Man, the Chaos pole polishing in this thread is something to behold...
Agreed, I say we have the Enslaver plague get slammed back into fluff as the reason behind the Necrons going back to sleep and showing that there ARE other very, very scary predators in the warp that isn't part of the Big Four. Hell, for all the power of the Chaos Gods they still can't touch the indomitable kunnin' and brutality that is Gork and Mork.
I miss when the fluff still mentioned other minor and medium chaos gods as well as the Enslaver plague. It just gave so much more peril to the warp instead of 4 Chaos gods and then Gork and Mork or was it Gork and Mork?
Don't forget the Eldar gods. There's only two that truly remain, but they still count even if one is held captive by Nurgle. They really do need to inflate the amount of Chaos Gods though, or at least bring in more unique entities like Be'lakor and Malice.
Apologies, derped up and somehow thought that one got into the webway which is kinda warp but not exactly. But yeah, in general I'd like to see the warp more fleshed out both chaos and not.
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Post by: Ferros
The people referring to Chaos being some indomitable, eternal evil must not be too well versed in the fluff.
This ignores that Chaos as we know it was essentially non-existent before The Eldar - and even then - wasn't particularly frightening at all until the Enslavers or the Fall. I don't recall too many Khornate demons in the War in Heaven.
This also ignores that Necrons are capable of closing off warp rifts, including the Eye - as evidenced by Cadia. A select collection of pylons are containing that section of the eye for tens of thousands of years without maintenance.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Ferros wrote:The people referring to Chaos being some indomitable, eternal evil must not be too well versed in the fluff.
This ignores that Chaos as we know it was essentially non-existent before The Eldar - and even then - wasn't particularly frightening at all until the Enslavers or the Fall. I don't recall too many Khornate demons in the War in Heaven.
This also ignores that Necrons are capable of closing off warp rifts, including the Eye - as evidenced by Cadia. A select collection of pylons are containing that section of the eye for tens of thousands of years without maintenance.
-screams in silence about people not seeming to understand what a Schrodinger state is, or the retroactive abilities of the warp and completely ignoring causality itself-
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Post by: Ferros
-screams in silence about people not seeming to understand what a Schrodinger state is, or the retroactive abilities of the warp and completely ignoring causality itself-
You keep using those same terms over and over like they're some sort of magic incantation and by yelling them at the top of your lungs, you'll magically be correct. But you're not, and your arrogance is putting your argument more to shame than your lack of context.
Chaos can be in a "Schrodinger state" all it wants - but its impact on the physical dimension has an obvious chronological history. While it may be this and that and everything inbetween in its OWN dimension - and I'm aware of the fluff saying it has existed/not-existed since the dawn of time - there is an extremely obvious pattern and history of Chaos in "our universe" and screaming your two favorite words does not disprove either of the points I made.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Ferros wrote:
You keep using those same terms over and over like they're some sort of magic incantation and by yelling them at the top of your lungs, you'll magically be correct. But you're not, and your arrogance is putting your argument more to shame than your lack of context.
Edit: Oh and the same goes for Bobthehero btw.
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Post by: Ferros
I made a single post in this topic, about a guy repeating something over and over ad nauseum in his myriad of posts.. and you respond with a kettle-pot scenario?
I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
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Post by: Ashiraya
I think I do, you complain on arrogance while simultaneously posting in a condescending tone.
There is no fault in repeating points that the opposition seemingly fails to notice.
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Post by: Bobthehero
I am not polishing any poles, at least not now
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Post by: Ashiraya
That's because this is not a DKoK thread.
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Post by: Bobthehero
>.>
<.<
No idea what you're talking about, nope.
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Post by: Ashiraya
I am fairly certain you would not like my headcanon.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Wyzilla wrote:
In the sixth edition, coupled with the Daemons Codex and multiple black library novels. There's also probably sentences littered about the 7th Edition, but I haven't gotten to picking through the fluff parts yet.
Seventh should be easy, just 128 pages and the usual love for C&P.....
What i did miss here is:
One of the Demon codices had a possible End to Chaos. Maybe add it to your collection ?
I am still pleased  no BRB disagrees with me. Conscious rulebooks would be weird.....
So basically 1 God-Emperor keeps the oh so unlimited and oh so powerful chaos-creatures at bay.  The same beings who cannot beat Gork&Mork, who need those Mortals to enter the Material Realm; Sounds like they are not so omni - this and omni - that....
The issue I would point out is:
- chaos is stuck with a champion frozen in a never ending "final" campaign, called 13th Black Crusade. Mr Ezekyle Immobile...
- chaos doesn't seem to act upon threats to its way to enter the materium, where are the offensives against Tyranids, Necrons, etc..?
Didn't the series of quotes you posted insist on "chaos goal is ruining everything" ? The whole Materium, the future of all ?
Success looks different I say..
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Post by: jakejackjake
ThePrimordial wrote:Couldnt you just kill orks on concrete on steel so the spores couldn't take root?
Or just kill them with Plasma, Melta, Gauss, or Flamers?
There's a reason they aren't a threat on the level of Chaos or Tyranids
How is this thread ongoing.
The answer is hell no the Imperium can't. Cause Daemons on thier worlds could just say "those battleships in my atmosphere? They're blown up now. Now back to the rape".
The only reason is they can't unify otherwise they'd already own the galaxy. Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone not agreeing with Wyzilla are just ignoring the facts and then making statements based off small pieces of inconclusive fluff that mean nothing but help them believe what they want. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ferros wrote:-screams in silence about people not seeming to understand what a Schrodinger state is, or the retroactive abilities of the warp and completely ignoring causality itself-
You keep using those same terms over and over like they're some sort of magic incantation and by yelling them at the top of your lungs, you'll magically be correct. But you're not, and your arrogance is putting your argument more to shame than your lack of context.
Chaos can be in a "Schrodinger state" all it wants - but its impact on the physical dimension has an obvious chronological history. While it may be this and that and everything inbetween in its OWN dimension - and I'm aware of the fluff saying it has existed/not-existed since the dawn of time - there is an extremely obvious pattern and history of Chaos in "our universe" and screaming your two favorite words does not disprove either of the points I made.
Because you've made no points. Yes the people in the materium see things in a chronological order that were effected by chaos but that doesn't prove anything really. They also see things that are chronologically impossible.
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Post by: Veteran of The Long War
Even though I'm a chaos player some of this is being overblown. While the Gods do consider their acts in the Materium to be a game the stuff about a million universes dying and being reborn in the warp has no meaning because a) the warp is not a physical place as we know it and we can't really describe it. It might be made up all the matter in the Universe ^10 or be smaller than the width of the tip of a pen. Or both at the same time. B) it is probably hyperbole in the books
However, I do agree that if the Chaos Gods actually cared they would have swept the Imperium away years ago cus the only being who could possibly threaten them (the Emperor) has been neutralized. Also, the Abaddon bashing needs to stop the whole meme came into existence by a bunch of butthurt Imperial players who believed their own lies about the outcome of the 13th Crusade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But to get back to the original topic, no the Imperium currently lacks the power to invade the Eye. Even if it was Just the Imperium vs Chaos the best they could do is blockade the whole thing in real space. And the only invasion into the eye was lead by 30 chapters, almost 1/3rd of a legion and it failed massively. They purged 4 planets in the Eye that can just rebuild themselves. Throwing men into the Eye is the same as throwing water down the drain; it ain't gonna get anywhere and it ain't gonna come back.
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Post by: TheRedWingArmada
Time for the bullet points:
-As I've said elsewhere, Abaddon is neither "stuck" nor a "failure" in his other Crusades. As it is suggested in our codex's, Abaddon has achieved something that has crippled and poisoned the Imperium EVERY SINGLE TIME HE'S STEPPED OUT OF THE WARP. Every time. Without exception. He has accomplished the goal he was tasked with.
-The Chaos Gods DO unite, typically when something in the Materium draws their attentions, like when the Primarchs were born or when the Emperor came into existence. Edit: Here is an even better example of the Chaos Gods uniting in the Warp, no less: Ok, so Tzeentch was top dog at one point. Well, the other 2(3) didn't like that, so they threw his ass off the Eternal Mountain top and shattered him into 1000 x 1000 pieces. So now Khorne is in charge. XD The Chaos Gods are fickle.
-The Great Game is played in the Warp, not Real Space. In Real Space, the Chaos Gods have a very specific purpose: To breach realspace forever after, thus sustaining their Empire indefinitely.
-Pt 2 to the last point, this is also why they're having so much fun stringing the Imperium along. They've got all the time in the world to waste, and even with 'Crons trying to damn up the warp, well as it turns out the Warp has a way of seeping out anyways.
-...and about the Tyranids? Don't kid yourself. Despite "Shadows on the Warp," Chaos does have a special place in the Warp for Tyranids. As Rograx Bloodhand (sp?) will tell you, it's in a heap of skulls at Khornes throne. Which brings me to...
-Tyranids and the Warp. So, in the game, we have this I don't know what that says Tyranids find the Warp delicious. And yet, when confronted with a warp storm, entire tendrils of Tyranid invasion fleets will attempt to by pass them, and at times, get swallowed up in them as well, per fluff, codex's and lore. They may have some bizarre resistance to psykers, but not the Warp itself. They can still get ripped apart by a Bloodletter as easy as an Imperial soldier can.
-13th Black Crusade, Battle for Cadia - RETCONNED. Oh, and by the by? That whole thing about the Imperium only being able to dam up the Warp for a bit? Well isn't that what's already going on? And they're losing that dam?
-Pylons: Wtfe....As Abaddon is showing us, Chaos can still beat up pylons. And without maintenance? That's because Cadia has been in the hands of the Imperium. They have NO CLUE what the hell those pylons are about or how to protect or even keep them. As I understand it, they know they're important and that's about it, hence why the Imperial Fleets haven't tried to bomb Abaddon off the face of Cadia. THEY CAN'T.
-But let's talk about the Necrons for a minute, without getting into laughably ridiculous fan fluff like the Celestial Orrey and the Void Dragon. Most of them are asleep. Even more are in states of disrepair. Even more of them are waking up with nasty things like Tyranids on their planets. In the incident on Colchis, they decided to take a walk down to the planets core and got crush by a Warp Leech with a Vortex for a head that decided to go Skull Shopping.
-Ultimately though? As I said, the goal is to breach realspace and the Imperium is currently the dominating faction of that space. When the Imperium falls, imagine Chaos x OVER 9000?!!!? And then lets see where that leaves the Nids and the Crons.
-...And don't get me started with the Eldar. They're as good as dead, with or without Isha or their other God of the Burning Face or w/e they're called. If Space Marine primarchs can punch the faces of their Avatars in, I don't see much threat from a single god trapped in the Webway v. his Big Brothers (and Big Sister) in the Warp, one of which is very, very hungry for Eldar stuff. I'll bet that Eldar God is even more appetizing.
-Finally, the Redemptive Crusade, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm sure: They didn't just ineffectively ruin a couple planets and get a third of the chapters killed. They also got another third of the chapters converted to Chaos, and what was left had to go piss on Basillius' parade, which was already over some thousand years before.
Getting back on topic with the EoT invasion? BAD, TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, AWFUL IDEA. Aside from the fact causality is meaningless, there is always the problem of disappearing from above your own foot prints.
Just ask anyone who has ever seen the Blade of Infinity, which also ruins the idea that the lack of causality in the Warp plays no role in ruining the causality of real space. Like that one time the Blade of Infinity showed up and then "Oops! Just kidding! It's really the Terminus Est."
THIS. IS. THE. WARP.
If you can beat this with the current Imperium standard, which is imploding currently, by all means, I'll indulge. But these fringe factions aren't going to reach Terra before Chaos. No way in hell. And if they can't reach Terra before Chaos does, then the other factions have no way in hell of stopping what pours out next. You thought the Daemons were bad in Warp space? Try Daemons in a universe they can permanently impact without the added benefit of shoving them off the mortal coil. lol
Yeah. That's WAAAAY worse than anything in existence right now, especially with the way the Chaos pantheon is set up (talking about larger, Chaotic bodies like Malal and the "Forces of Nature" Chaos Daemons we see Imperial fleets just so happy to dive into the Warp after.)
Titans? Get real. Void dragon? Yeah whatever. Nurgle in realspace? He can hold the universe in between his fingers at that point. @__@
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Post by: Ashiraya
Once Chaos can manifest in realspace fully, the galaxy is boned.
The question is just if they can do that before the Tyranids eat everything or the Necrons realise that using the Celestial Orrery might be a good idea.
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