Didnt see a thread but I figured I would start it. Basically I wanted to discuss the changes in 6th and how some of them impact our Guard armies and what you may change in your lists to keep up with these changes.

The biggest one I noticed was vehicles and transport got somewhat of a buff. While you now need ap1-2 to kill vehicles unless they are open topped. But as vehicles are more survivable they are now able to be shaken more often making them not shoot as well. So its seems like anti tank ap1-2 might need to be more common in armies if you want to successfully bring down vehicles. Or do you think it would be better to try and glance vehicles down???

Also now whenever a transport suffers damage on the chart the guys inside take a LD test and if the pass they can fire normally rather than snap shooting their weapons.

Now with these changes so far, will you start bringing more lascannons over autocannons? same as melta over plasma guns?(although plasma is still really good against monstrous creatures and elite units). With vehicles being harder to kill will vanquisher be a primary pick for tank commanders now?

Will russes be more common as they were really only killed by assault and melta and now most long range anti needs to roll even higher to kill them.

With vehicles being harder to kill and the troops inside not suffering from snap shooting as much will tauroxes be used more or are chimeras still more dominant. Has anyone thought about running a platoon of guardsmen in tauroxes behind a line? twinlinked autocannon will help glance vehicles, and if you angle the vehicle sideways a bit you could have a squad inside fire a heavy weapon out of it or you could have them disembarked outside firing all weapons. Then when the time is needed speed over the wall or terrain and grab objectives.

With cover now being super easy to get as most ruins and rubble(that usually being most of the terrain) only requires you to stand in it to get a 4+ cover will eradicators and their cheap cost be picked more often as well as wyverns? The new blast and template rules just say that it hits anything under it so now you hit all floors and barrage doesnt just hit the top floor anymore. Ive had great experiences with eradicator with heavy bolters all around and squads of 2 wyverns just tear infantry apart.

Share your opinions and if any other question feel free to add, theres plenty to go over that I havent discussed yet!

With the change to interceptor and increased durability of FMC's (grounding tests at end of phase), I would have had to personally drop the fortifications I've taken for AA and take vendetta's again. Hydras & Quad Guns are now effectively worthless against ground targets, so Vendettas have to come back for AA that isn't a complete point waste if your opponent isn't fielding flyers.

Additionally, vehicles are only harder to kill in that its harder to 1 shot them for an explode result. It is still just as easy to kill them through stripping of hullpoints.

As it is, its a null point for me because my gaming circle isn't switching to 7th. The increased randomness of maelstrom, the psychic phase, and some questionable design decisions (barrage & sniper don't cause pinning? heavy vehicles get a bonus to ramming, but don't give Lumbering Behemoth back in any way?) will make this an easy two year wait for the next edition.

Some of the lesser discussed changes:

- AM psykers got a huge buff in 7th edition. Wyrdvanes and Astropaths were iffy when testing against their weak leadership. But with the new edition, and revamped psychic powers, they are both much better. Both will always have access to at least two powers. I'm seriously considering wyrdvanes with biomancy as a cheap unit with a S4 AP2 Assault 4 shooting profile, in addition to a CC buff. It seems much more sensible to spam psykers (which IG can easily do) rather than upgrade primaris psykers to ML2.

- Rough riders, with everything scoring and tactical objectives it now makes sense to quickly move on an objective before the final turn. Rough riders can move quickly and can hit hard enough to blow most enemy units off an objective.

- Sentinels, might be the perfect objective holders. Armored sentinels can easily move on an objective and either contest it in assault or just sit on it.

- Scions, deep striking might actually make tactical sense now that they can score!

Veterans in Chimeras and will change to LC than AC.
Pretty much the only change I can see.

Vanquishers are now looking more tempting. As are vehicles & transports.

How will psykers work in Kill team now?

Razerous wrote:
Vanquishers are now looking more tempting. As are vehicles & transports.

I have never liked Vanquishers. Sure, they've got the range and pen power, but single shots at BS3 should never be relied upon. I much prefer leaving anti-infantry duty to tanks with blasts and large shot output, while ordering TL and Tank-Hunters onto infantry squads.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Vanquishers are now looking more tempting. As are vehicles & transports.

I have never liked Vanquishers. Sure, they've got the range and pen power, but single shots at BS3 should never be relied upon. I much prefer leaving anti-infantry duty to tanks with blasts and large shot output, while ordering TL and Tank-Hunters onto infantry squads.

Normally I would agree. Pask and TCs are the exception.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Vanquishers are now looking more tempting. As are vehicles & transports.

I have never liked Vanquishers. Sure, they've got the range and pen power, but single shots at BS3 should never be relied upon. I much prefer leaving anti-infantry duty to tanks with blasts and large shot output, while ordering TL and Tank-Hunters onto infantry squads.

Normally I would agree. Pask and TCs are the exception.

My thoughts exactly. With damage tables, having the vanquisher turret on a AV14 mounting, win win.

I personally would rather have blast russes deal with infantry and give them heavy bolters all around to add to wound output. As for anti tank I still prefer the vanquisher. But I really only like taking the vanquisher with pask upgrade or tank commander. I find that a company command squad is to easily killed.

I think Kurov's Aquila got a huge buff...or, more so, psykers and Prescience got much worse. I thought the Aquila was really strong even in 6th, but now that there isn't another reliable way to grant rerolls all around your army, I think it's borderline mandatory.

I've tried out the Pask command squad with two punishers and a vanquisher, I was impressed.

I never was a fan of the vanquisher pre-6th edition IG codex, just because of the BS3 and the inability to make the tank ANY better. Now, with a proper commander you can turn the thing into a killing machine. Back it up with some anti infantry support and you'll kick all sorts of MC's and heavy supports in the teeth.

As for psykers...I'm not convinced they're worth it for the guard player. Granted, presience is nice and all but we have to compete against other armies that can DtW with twice as many dice as we go to spend on the manifest roll. Maybe it's just been my luck, but I'm staying away from them.

Yea if you don't have many psykers and you go up against a psyker heavy army it really sucks.

And honestly ever since the new IG codex hit I've usually run a vanquisher with tank commander. Just seems like a really survivable hq and adds pretty good anti tank.

 tomjoad wrote:
I think Kurov's Aquila got a huge buff...or, more so, psykers and Prescience got much worse. I thought the Aquila was really strong even in 6th, but now that there isn't another reliable way to grant rerolls all around your army, I think it's borderline mandatory.

Borderline mandatory? Not even close, not within a thousand miles.

It suffers from 4 main issues that make it at the very best, barely mediocre:

1) Its in the "noticeable effect" category for cost. 25 points is an extra Priest, which is one extra fearless squad. Its also 5 pts less than plasma sponsons on an LR, or the cost of giving 2.5 of your Russes hull Lascannons. Even 5 Pintle Mount Heavy Stubbers is 15 S4 AP6 shots across the army for the same price.

2) It means you're taking a CCS, and frankly given the units that would most benefit from Kurov's Aquila are Leman Russ tanks, why not just take a Tank Commander HQ choice instead. Hell, take Pask as the Warlord and get P.E anyway.

3) You have to cram things in around the CCS for it to have a noticeable effect if you're not using it with expensive models like Russes that can afford to bunch up. Hence pie plates, positioning issues and so forth will ensue

4) As a result of the above your CCS may or may not end up in a position where a small chain of events that could leave to the CCS, and your warlord, being wiped out of existence trying to maximise or get even some models receiving the benefit. 6'' distance sucks.

I'd say there are right now, three reasons to take the CCS in lists trying to be competitive:

1) If you're playing Mechanised at 1850 points or above (below that I'd expect you're losing out on too much heavy firepower) and the Pask Tank Commander/Tank Commander Squadron hasn't been taken because you've got sufficient heavy firepower otherwise, getting the special orders that greatly benefit Vets in could be pretty good, as would be getting extra special weps.

2) If you're attempting to make something of an Air-Cav list, I'd say two CCS' are mandatory for buffing the airborne Vets to obscene levels and getting more firepower in there. Untested, potentially fun and worthwhile.

3) If you're trying to run footsloggers or HWS where the buff orders are easier spent.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
I think Kurov's Aquila got a huge buff...or, more so, psykers and Prescience got much worse. I thought the Aquila was really strong even in 6th, but now that there isn't another reliable way to grant rerolls all around your army, I think it's borderline mandatory.

Borderline mandatory? Not even close, not within a thousand miles.

It suffers from 4 main issues that make it at the very best, barely mediocre:

1) Its in the "noticeable effect" category for cost. 25 points is an extra Priest, which is one extra fearless squad. Its also 5 pts less than plasma sponsons on an LR, or the cost of giving 2.5 of your Russes hull Lascannons. Even 5 Pintle Mount Heavy Stubbers is 15 S4 AP6 shots across the army for the same price.

2) It means you're taking a CCS, and frankly given the units that would most benefit from Kurov's Aquila are Leman Russ tanks, why not just take a Tank Commander HQ choice instead. Hell, take Pask as the Warlord and get P.E anyway.

3) You have to cram things in around the CCS for it to have a noticeable effect if you're not using it with expensive models like Russes that can afford to bunch up. Hence pie plates, positioning issues and so forth will ensue

4) As a result of the above your CCS may or may not end up in a position where a small chain of events that could leave to the CCS, and your warlord, being wiped out of existence trying to maximise or get even some models receiving the benefit. 6'' distance sucks.

1) Unless you're also saying you'd never take a Primaris, this isn't a valid criticism. If you'd also never take a Primaris, then, ok, fair enough.

2) You're assuming I wouldn't also take Pask, and you seem to be assuming that other Russes wouldn't be the primary beneficiary of the Kurov bubble. In my mind, neither of those assumptions is correct.

3) As above: Lots of Russes, a few members of a blob within 6" of a Chimera; boom, that's nearly the whole army.

4) Being within 6" of a Chimera is maybe not as hard as you think it is. Also, I cannot imagine the CCS containing my warlord. Pask should always be present and is a much better warlord. Coteaz, even, is a better choice (unless 7th stops you from taking an Inquisitor as your warlord).

 tomjoad wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
I think Kurov's Aquila got a huge buff...or, more so, psykers and Prescience got much worse. I thought the Aquila was really strong even in 6th, but now that there isn't another reliable way to grant rerolls all around your army, I think it's borderline mandatory.

Borderline mandatory? Not even close, not within a thousand miles.

It suffers from 4 main issues that make it at the very best, barely mediocre:

1) Its in the "noticeable effect" category for cost. 25 points is an extra Priest, which is one extra fearless squad. Its also 5 pts less than plasma sponsons on an LR, or the cost of giving 2.5 of your Russes hull Lascannons. Even 5 Pintle Mount Heavy Stubbers is 15 S4 AP6 shots across the army for the same price.

2) It means you're taking a CCS, and frankly given the units that would most benefit from Kurov's Aquila are Leman Russ tanks, why not just take a Tank Commander HQ choice instead. Hell, take Pask as the Warlord and get P.E anyway.

3) You have to cram things in around the CCS for it to have a noticeable effect if you're not using it with expensive models like Russes that can afford to bunch up. Hence pie plates, positioning issues and so forth will ensue

4) As a result of the above your CCS may or may not end up in a position where a small chain of events that could leave to the CCS, and your warlord, being wiped out of existence trying to maximise or get even some models receiving the benefit. 6'' distance sucks.

1) Unless you're also saying you'd never take a Primaris, this isn't a valid criticism. If you'd also never take a Primaris, then, ok, fair enough.

Uh, no? You say this like going for buffers is always the best, absolutely mandatory course of action, and that is plainly not true, especially the notion that it isn't a valid criticism for me to suggest otherwise, which made me raise my eyebrows.

Buffers can be useful, but here they're just an "In addition to" rather than actually making anything happen. And here its also flawed in other ways, potentially even detrimental beyond the points cost.

2) You're assuming I wouldn't also take Pask, and you seem to be assuming that other Russes wouldn't be the primary beneficiary of the Kurov bubble. In my mind, neither of those assumptions is correct.

A Pask Tank Commander squadron comes to about 430~ points or more, and eliminates the need for a CCS, making your whole army have more raw firepower as a whole. Nevermind the fact that the Pask Executioner/Punisher squadron isn't feasible because you're paying 70 points for essentially a blind pie plate, BS4, pointless anti-vehicle buffing and a one-time smoke launcher use while firing with the former while with the latter you're out of range because you're too busy trying to put your entire army together in one silly 6'' bubble. I'd imagine that the formation lay out would make it difficult for movement if you decided to waste the points efficiency of the Kurov by trying to get Pask closer too, as either infantry are in front and can fire, or they're behind the tanks and they can't.

So the two single best loadouts for Pask are effectively pointless.

If the buffer here doubled the firepower output then maybe, sure I'd see the logic, but all it does is give a small effect that is in other ways detrimental and simultaneously rips out about 120 points of your list for a mediocre benefit when I just could buy another Leman Russ Eradicator or shuffle points to get something better.

At 1850/2000, maybe it'd be barely decent of a proposition, but then you're at the points level where they'll annihilate their way through to the CCS even easier with firepower.

60 points for preferred enemy is just frankly garbage and when I did the last post I thought it was 25 as a mistake. Losing out on 6 LR hull lascannons, or 4 sponson plasma cannons/multi-meltas there is terrible enough. I could go on for ages about all the different things you could spent 60 points on.

3) As above: Lots of Russes, a few members of a blob within 6" of a Chimera; boom, that's nearly the whole army.

You're more vulnerable to pie plates, and there is still the real prospect the Chimera is popped and the CCS soon follows. Sure, if you want to bubble almost your whole army like that, fine, but don't be surprised if you lose board control and the objectives, as well opportunities for close range murder just because you wanted to make a garbage upgrade work.

4) Being within 6" of a Chimera is maybe not as hard as you think it is. Also, I cannot imagine the CCS containing my warlord. Pask should always be present and is a much better warlord. Coteaz, even, is a better choice (unless 7th stops you from taking an Inquisitor as your warlord).

You would have to take Coteaz as I'm pretty sure Pask can't be the Warlord with a CCS present. So now you have points invested in 3 HQ choices, a tiny pool of psychic dice that'll get denied out the ass and you could have just taken a Leman Russ Executioner with plasma cannon sponsons and hull Lascannon instead of Coteaz and the CCS, even after that still saving you 25 points, and have been done with it.

Coteaz can't be the warlord, unless Inquisition is your primary detachment.

Spoletta wrote:
Coteaz can't be the warlord, unless Inquisition is your primary detachment.

I suppose an FAQ might be needed about this, but shouldn't the specific allowance in Codex: =][= take precedence over the general prohibition of allies being the warlord in the BRB? I guess this is more for YMDC, but that's how I assume it works.

Doesn't the INQ codex have some special rule where you can make the inquisitor your warlord? I think if Coteaz is on the field or an inquisitor of some kind, even pask and yarrick would know who the boss is.

Kurovs value IMO is 100% down to the re-roll 1s mean being able to re-roll blasts debate.

If yes, totally worth the investment, if no, then not really.

How about the new wyvern? Depending on your army I suppose it will depend on whether you run it or not. I tried it in a Gunline guard army and I will say it seems like it's almost an auto include to have at least one squad of 2 in most of my lists.

 tankboy145 wrote:
How about the new wyvern? Depending on your army I suppose it will depend on whether you run it or not. I tried it in a Gunline guard army and I will say it seems like it's almost an auto include to have at least one squad of 2 in most of my lists.

If you're not using wyverns you're doing it wrong. It's so cheap and so deadly. It's the first thing that I put on my list now because there's no better value for 65 points. It's much better than any of the other artillery options.

Wyverns are very very good. I would run at least two separately if you have the slots.

I'd question the value of splitting them up. With how wounds are applied to squads, a battery of two is vastly superior to two seperate ones.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd question the value of splitting them up. With how wounds are applied to squads, a battery of two is vastly superior to two seperate ones.

If they only have one squad that you want to target with a wyvern I think you have already won.

With things going more towards MSU two wyverns is going to be overkill against most units. Also with two you can center the second shot somewhere else and start eliminating different models.

The only problem with the Wyvern is that it's a lil, bit over 1$ per point value ('least in Canada)...but if I'd had the free funds, I'd buy a couple of as well

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The only problem with the Wyvern is that it's a lil, bit over 1$ per point value ('least in Canada)...but if I'd had the free funds, I'd buy a couple of as well

After months of trying to make my basilisk viable, I'm converting it to a Wyvern. Just need to figure how to cut the barrel in half without damaging it, I'm going for a double barrel arty look.

Ive experimented with them a couple of times and they now seem to be the go to unit. It just seems mandatory to have at least one squad of 2 wyverns in just about any list.

Ive also looked into using scions as allies to get some deep striking scoring units.

One thing I still tend to see as an issue with AM/IG is getting scoring units down the field, what are everyones solutions to this?

 tankboy145 wrote:
Ive experimented with them a couple of times and they now seem to be the go to unit. It just seems mandatory to have at least one squad of 2 wyverns in just about any list.

Ive also looked into using scions as allies to get some deep striking scoring units.

One thing I still tend to see as an issue with AM/IG is getting scoring units down the field, what are everyones solutions to this?

I haven't played enough games yet to answer this as well as I'd like, but my ideas are:

I've dropped the ADL and now I feel very free to move my blob squad around. Obviously, they're not very fast moving, so I am not expecting to get Linebreaker with them, but claiming the Relic is a reasonable expectation, I think.

Also, melta vets in a Chimera can probably help. Melta wants to get in close anyway, and that's two OS units that, if you hide them a bit and present enough other targets to you enemy's guns, might be able to survive a whole game.

Aside from that, the allied in scions (or maybe some sort of marines) will probably be our best bets to score objectives in the opposition deployment zone.

Yes, this has been IG's perennial problem.

In 3rd and 4th I used chimeras, deep-striking platoons, and infiltrating platoons to get downfield (I miss regimental doctrines that the 2003 Codex had).

In 5th with the 2009 Codex, I switched to using Chimeras (platoons and/or vets depending on what I felt like) and blobs to get downfield. I also used Al'Rahem from time to time since I'm a Tallarn army.

In 6th, I noticed my blobs tended to dissolve when they foot-slogged it so I I used Chimeras and out-flanking Al'Rahem platoons.

In 7th, I've been using Chimera-mounted squads and allied stormtroopers to nab down-field objectives.


-Tallarn Commander
IG, "We are many. They are few."

You've got scout sentinels which can outflank deep on the field. Or valkyries and vendettas which are real tough flyers that can drop your PCS onto an objective in the late game. You could always use a Taurox Prime...

The problem with scions is their very short range. Even when dropped in the middle of enemy lines, they're probably not going to get into rapid fire range. If they could use a vox for long range orders from a CCS then they'd be much more practical. They're best at focusing on eliminating a single enemy unit or taking a single objective. They're particularly good at eliminating devastators, crisis suits, and aspect warriors. I plan to run them with volley guns and/or plasma guns. If you can get them on an objective with two volley guns they'll be a great defensive unit that will be hard to displace.

I tested out a list yesterday against a marine army, 1500pts:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM/Camo
Executioner-PC

Scions-x2melta

Scions-x2melta

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

PCS-x4 flamers

PIS-melta (This is not a blob, they are infantry squads acting by themselves)
PIS-melta
PIS-melta

Vendetta

x2 wyvern(squadron)

Eradicator-HB's all around

The scions worked great in grabbing objectives in the back field as well as getting rid of enemy armor that was far away.

What is everyones views on this list?

It causes Tigurius' head to explode from inside his rhino.

But yeah, marine player in question here. Having had time to think about the list, dropping the camp netting on the vanquisher for some vox casters or a longer ranged CCS load out may have been good.

It's a decent list for sure, plenty of bodies and lots of scary threats. I'm not sold on Scions being worth it though, not when another squad of Veterans can do the same thing and get a tank out of the deal for pretty close to the same point value of 2 Scions squads.

If I'm going armor I tend to run:

HQ
TC-Pask-Vanquisher w/mm sponsons and LC
Executioner - PC sponsons
Executioner - PC sponsons

Troops
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas

Heavy Support
Wyvern - Camo gear
Wyvern - Camo gear

Leman Russ Eradicator - HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - HB sponsons

You get anti tank, anti air, anti horde all rolled up in a sexy block of AV14. True fast moving armies tend to give me a run for my money, but I've found that I can generally beat them if we go head to head. Not to mention, Preferred Enemey plasma cannon shots are downright stupidly awesome.

Overall I'm a HUGE fan of the new codex and the new rule set, even if the psychic phase is total crap for AM. Of course, with allies we can make this a little less sucky but that means sacrificing some of our heavy hitting nastiness, ymmv.

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a decent list for sure, plenty of bodies and lots of scary threats. I'm not sold on Scions being worth it though, not when another squad of Veterans can do the same thing and get a tank out of the deal for pretty close to the same point value of 2 Scions squads.

If I'm going armor I tend to run:

HQ
TC-Pask-Vanquisher w/mm sponsons and LC
Executioner - PC sponsons
Executioner - PC sponsons

Troops
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas

Heavy Support
Wyvern - Camo gear
Wyvern - Camo gear

Leman Russ Eradicator - HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - HB sponsons

You get anti tank, anti air, anti horde all rolled up in a sexy block of AV14. True fast moving armies tend to give me a run for my money, but I've found that I can generally beat them if we go head to head. Not to mention, Preferred Enemey plasma cannon shots are downright stupidly awesome.

Overall I'm a HUGE fan of the new codex and the new rule set, even if the psychic phase is total crap for AM. Of course, with allies we can make this a little less sucky but that means sacrificing some of our heavy hitting nastiness, ymmv.

I disagree, I think the psychic phase has a lot of potential for AM. Wyrdvanes are a great way to throw psychic dice at divination powers, and even if they perils in the most terrible way then you're just out a 60 point unit.

Astropaths are crazy powerful for 25 points, dishing out really powerful buffs or shrieks.

Primaris Psykers are possibly our first chance at a combat beast, using biomancy, I want to run them attached to guard blobs and bullgryns. Endurance is crazy good when cast on either unit.

I would ally in grey knights for better psychic phase stuff instead of wyrdvanes.

For the same price as 3 wyrdvanes you can get a henchmen squad in a rhino. With coteaz they are now two objective secured units and a extra dice to boot. Also coteaz is 25 points more expensive than a level two and comes with all the goodies.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
It's a decent list for sure, plenty of bodies and lots of scary threats. I'm not sold on Scions being worth it though, not when another squad of Veterans can do the same thing and get a tank out of the deal for pretty close to the same point value of 2 Scions squads.

If I'm going armor I tend to run:

HQ
TC-Pask-Vanquisher w/mm sponsons and LC
Executioner - PC sponsons
Executioner - PC sponsons

Troops
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas
Vets - Chimera - Meltas

Heavy Support
Wyvern - Camo gear
Wyvern - Camo gear

Leman Russ Eradicator - HB sponsons
Leman Russ Punisher - HB sponsons

You get anti tank, anti air, anti horde all rolled up in a sexy block of AV14. True fast moving armies tend to give me a run for my money, but I've found that I can generally beat them if we go head to head. Not to mention, Preferred Enemey plasma cannon shots are downright stupidly awesome.

Overall I'm a HUGE fan of the new codex and the new rule set, even if the psychic phase is total crap for AM. Of course, with allies we can make this a little less sucky but that means sacrificing some of our heavy hitting nastiness, ymmv.

I disagree, I think the psychic phase has a lot of potential for AM. Wyrdvanes are a great way to throw psychic dice at divination powers, and even if they perils in the most terrible way then you're just out a 60 point unit.

Astropaths are crazy powerful for 25 points, dishing out really powerful buffs or shrieks.

Primaris Psykers are possibly our first chance at a combat beast, using biomancy, I want to run them attached to guard blobs and bullgryns. Endurance is crazy good when cast on either unit.

They're not my thing. I've played about 10 games since 7th dropped and I initially started under the pretense that AM psychic units could really even the playing field; not so for me. If they're not periling and annihilating the whole unit they're in, they're being DtW'd by Demons that have 3x as many dice. This doesn't make the psychic selections in the codex bad or anything, just not something I'm going to field, which is a shame because I REALLY wanted to finish making my custom Wyrdvanes.

This coming from a guy who uses Rough Riders, regardless of how terrible they are!

 tankboy145 wrote:
I tested out a list yesterday against a marine army, 1500pts:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM/Camo
Executioner-PC

Scions-x2melta

Scions-x2melta

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

PCS-x4 flamers

PIS-melta (This is not a blob, they are infantry squads acting by themselves)
PIS-melta
PIS-melta

Vendetta

x2 wyvern(squadron)

Eradicator-HB's all around

The scions worked great in grabbing objectives in the back field as well as getting rid of enemy armor that was far away.

What is everyones views on this list?

Its all fun and games until you play Tau, really. I've had that amount of foot infantry (all with camo cloaks, no less) blown off the board in 2-3 turns by a 900 point Tau army.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It causes Tigurius' head to explode from inside his rhino.

But yeah, marine player in question here. Having had time to think about the list, dropping the camp netting on the vanquisher for some vox casters or a longer ranged CCS load out may have been good.

Thats true if tiggy get sucked into the warp his first psychic power then maybe the game would have gone differently lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
I tested out a list yesterday against a marine army, 1500pts:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM/Camo
Executioner-PC

Scions-x2melta

Scions-x2melta

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

Vets-LC/x3plasma/sentries

PCS-x4 flamers

PIS-melta (This is not a blob, they are infantry squads acting by themselves)
PIS-melta
PIS-melta

Vendetta

x2 wyvern(squadron)

Eradicator-HB's all around

The scions worked great in grabbing objectives in the back field as well as getting rid of enemy armor that was far away.

What is everyones views on this list?

Its all fun and games until you play Tau, really. I've had that amount of foot infantry (all with camo cloaks, no less) blown off the board in 2-3 turns by a 900 point Tau army.

I will agree Tau probably will give this list a run for its money. But I will say with the wyverns and the eradicator I will certainly be taking a toll on their infantry rather quickly. The AV14 is also rather difficult for tau to deal with so my TC squad will be aiming for their big riptides and with the shoot and smoke ability I will hopefully get 2 turns of successful shooting before their big units start really returning fire.

I do like the suggestion on a CCS for orders.

Any other suggestions on the list?

Few opinion questions about this edition.

Do you think stacks of heavy weapons teams are out since prescience got harder to pull off?

Do you think the psykers still have a place in IG or are they out now?

Enginseers with servitors going to be more useful to keep those vehicles going? (I like the model)

ADL still almost an autotake now that the quadgun can only shoot fliers w/o snapshotting?

Heavy weapons teams were out because str 6 volley of fire is a thing.

Psykers are in, but you need to supplement them, most likely with Grey knights at larger sizes.

Enginseers are meh, but I would like them for being able to keep mobile and still fire certain weapons.

It was an auto take to keep things alive, however I would argue there are other options now

Is it at all worth it to upgrade Vets to Grenadiers since its cheaper now?

Thanks!

If grenadiers is the armor one then it can be if you have the points or are using plasma with them.

Anyone been using creed? If so what warlord tables do you usually roll on? I've been thinking strategic table, but may end up going with Pask for WL.

With how important objective secures units are to every other army why do I not see people talking about leafblower lists, 6 vet teams in chimeras seems like a good starting point for 7ed.

I think grenadiers is worth it because it gives them a save against so many weapons, especially if the transport is destroyed and they spend some time out in the open.

 Goldphish wrote:
With how important objective secures units are to every other army why do I not see people talking about leafblower lists, 6 vet teams in chimeras seems like a good starting point for 7ed.

I had thought about this as well. Only down sides I can see is that less units can fire out the top, the side lasgun ports only fire at bs3, chimera became more expensive.

Bonuses are that the guys inside take a LD test to see if they have to snap fire if they are shaken or stunned, vehicles are harder to kill, vets are less expensive.

I suppose it depends on what else is in the list, chimera vets lack long range fire power/anti tank. I would also assume you probably have hull heavy flamers to deal with horde unless you are probably taking wyverns or something else.

Also any of the doctrines are very much useful now that they are cheaper, I havent run the carapace armor yet but I typically run a vet squad with a lascannon, 3 plasma guns, and forward sentries. Usually the first turn or 2 the lascannons are aiming for enemy armor and once they are close enough the plasma guns start to take toll on the opponent and thats usually in some effective cover.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Goldphish wrote:
With how important objective secures units are to every other army why do I not see people talking about leafblower lists, 6 vet teams in chimeras seems like a good starting point for 7ed.

I had thought about this as well. Only down sides I can see is that less units can fire out the top, the side lasgun ports only fire at bs3, chimera became more expensive.

Bonuses are that the guys inside take a LD test to see if they have to snap fire if they are shaken or stunned, vehicles are harder to kill, vets are less expensive.

I suppose it depends on what else is in the list, chimera vets lack long range fire power/anti tank. I would also assume you probably have hull heavy flamers to deal with horde unless you are probably taking wyverns or something else.

Also any of the doctrines are very much useful now that they are cheaper, I havent run the carapace armor yet but I typically run a vet squad with a lascannon, 3 plasma guns, and forward sentries. Usually the first turn or 2 the lascannons are aiming for enemy armor and once they are close enough the plasma guns start to take toll on the opponent and thats usually in some effective cover.

Personally I have always been and basically from this point probably always be a believer of a balance of Russes and Chimeras per the AV14 wall tactic I use.

As someone that has played a lot of pure mech in the past with Marines, I can say that it works like this: you come up against something particularly threatening? You've got one chance to obliterate it before it rolls over you. Mech doesn't give you highly reliable and thorough methods of dispatching most things either - 3 flamers will hurt a horde, but to the point where it will be safe for that Vet squad? Probably not. Meltas/Plasmas will maul an MC but not kill it outright unless you double or triple team it (if you want it assured, definitely the latter) facing up against it, and even melta's can fail when you least expect it.

Contrast with a Pask Russ squadron - its easy to assemble a bastion of firepower that is extremely reliable and has greater reach, while also protecting the advance with AV14 and being an anchor that will last several turns at least.

In addition, I don't understand the logic in a Mech CCS anymore. The greatest appeals before were filling the mandatory HQ slot and getting more specials, but now all you're really getting is specials (a downgrade in firepower from Russes) and orders which are going to be operating in the short range - hence your CCS needs to be closer, hence you're easier giving up Slay the Warlord, etc.

To be honest, the best appeal I can think of is the Regimental Standard, for all those bad occasions where you get de-meched and a squad routs, or you have squads get caught out or taking morale at crucial times, but you're going to have get the specials and the voxes as well to make the investment worth it, and by then you've got a lot of points down the drain on upgrades.

I would agree completely, I think in most mech lists russes should be your HQ.

I hav been playing pask as my hq for a few games now. He is a lot of fun. My tank commander squad is two punishes with heavy bolters all around, dozer blade, and camo gear. (been plating a lot of 2500 point games). I have been putting a squad of five bullgryn (slab shields) in front of pask. That is a nice cover save out in the open. Also the bullgryn pick up assault units trying to attack the tanks.

I like the tank commander option. It gives you 4/5 heavy support slots. The bread and butter of the IG/AM.

I'm a guard guy, just started playing seriously the last few months. How do you guys deal with riptides?

Monster hunting lascannons/plasmaguns

 TankerNick86 wrote:
I'm a guard guy, just started playing seriously the last few months. How do you guys deal with riptides?

I'm not an AM player, but I am a Tau player and play against AM for what it is worth. A good bet is a Punisher Pask. 20 Bs4 Preferred Enemy S5 Rendig Shots puts 3 Wounds at a 2+ and 3 Rends at a 5++. The HBolters are just Gravy. Or an executioner Pask could work depending on how Preferred Enemy and Blasts works out.

Also, Punisher Pask is vicious against Wraithknights.

Most Tau lists, especially Riptides are really terrible at handling AV14 at range. With the changes to Vehicles it's even harder. Generally, it's going to be more effective to take out the Riptides Markerlight Support first. Without Markerlights an IA Riptides is less scary to AM at range than a stock Russ that fails to fire 1/6 times, unless you are within Secondary weapon range. Trying to focus down a Riptide early may cost you as the rest of their army can survive long enough to impact the game.

Vendettas will also work, but take time to widely down its Ho, if the 3++ Nova Shield is up, you are better off targeting another unit that turn. Let them burn off wounds with their Nova reactor thinking they need defenses. Tank Shicking can be quite effective in a pinch, you have a 14% of breaking the Riptide on each LE.

Melta and Olasma Vets work. If you've got access to Monster Hunter, anything can work.

If you have access to any form of Ld attack ie Telepahy, that will do very well.

Also, if you can pressure them and catch them, even a handful of Guardsman can Tarpit a Riptide in CC, heck, they even have a decent chance to break and run down a Riptide.

Thanks for the insight gentlemen. I'm sure I'll be back for more advice!

Which Leman Russes do you guys all prefer? I thought I would ask as I am getting a whole bunch of pre-made Guard soon and that includes 6 Leman Russ tanks; 4 Battle Tanks and 2 Executioners. Is the standard Russ worthwhile as a generalist? In larger games I'm definitely going to be running (once I get him) Pask in a Punisher with two Executioners for support, but not sure on which Russes I should take otherwise. Cheers for any input.

Standard Russes may not be *that* great, but they are definitely better than nothing at all.

The problem with standard Russes is that they're priced in relation to the Basilisk

Which is overpriced

Best Russes are probably:

Exterminator with Multi-Meltas, +/- Lascannon
-Cheap
-Multi-Meltas
-Versatile in a good way, does an alright job of killing flyers even

Executioner +/- Plasma Cannons and Lascannon (but never, ever take PC sponsons if you haven't got Pask or Kurov's Aquila buff)
-Most points efficient in terms of anti-infantry firepower
-Best against MC's, which IG tend to struggle against

Eradicator with Multi-Meltas
-Cheap
-Absurdly killy against Tau and Necrons and the like where you make a joke out of their entrenched guys
-Also hilarious against Xeno Bikes
x. Main gun is pretty crappy against the odd army, though this can be said for Vanquishers and Exterminators too sadly

Vanquisher with Lascannon, Multi-Meltas if your list is lacking hardcore anti-vehicle
-Can kill any vehicle
-Puts 1-2 wounds on an MC a turn
x. Sucks against infantry

Punisher, with Pask or a Tank Commander piloting it
-Piles on wounds against infantry fast
-Powerful MC/Vehicle killer with Pask
x. Extremely short range means you have to be exceedingly careful

The others:

Leman Russ Battle Tank (maybe with sponson Multi-Meltas for opportunities)
-Can camp wherever it pleases so long as LOS is considered due to good range
x. Expensive
x. Main gun is fairly mediocre, poor against MC's and garbage against Termies
x. Can't fire other guns at full BS

Leman Russ Demolisher (maybe with sponson Multi-Meltas for opportunities)
-Doubles out heavy T5 infantry
-Kills all forms of infantry
x. Overpriced
x. Extremely short range
x. Above two negatives are not a good combination at all

The more you talk about the Exterminator Mr. Omega, the more I'm tempted to give it a try; the amount of shots it brings down range is nice, but I believe it is the 'average' strength and standard AP value that makes it a pass to me for the pie plate LRBT. getting my Str7AP4 shots from a HWT.

Safe to assume you're using Pask with yours as to take advantage of the rending rule?

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
The more you talk about the Exterminator Mr. Omega, the more I'm tempted to give it a try; the amount of shots it brings down range is nice, but I believe it is the 'average' strength and standard AP value that makes it a pass to me for the pie plate LRBT. getting my Str7AP4 shots from a HWT.

Safe to assume you're using Pask with yours as to take advantage of the rending rule?

Nah, I field it in HS a single tank (could pair it I guess) with Lascannon/MM sponsons. 7 high strength shots that do a fairly good job at putting hurt on MC's, do high damage to vehicles and buildings and put on a few more wounds on infantry. Its part of the lower cost tank triumvirate wherein you've got Eradicators, Exterminators and Vanquishers, with infantry killing being to the left and vehicle killing being to the right in that list.

Generally I already have both enough anti-infantry (Pask's squadron) and enough AT (Vendettas, melta Vets) that the Exterminator is an add on that fills in the gaps. It's to be noted that I play aggressively with my strategy, if you were to gunline defensively the Eradicator/Vanquisher begin to hold more appeal as you just have a superior autocannon platform with the Exterminator at that point.

I might eventually try Pask as an Exterminator but right now I think taking advantage of his squadron's anti-infantry potential is more efficient, preferred enemy Executioners/Pask-Punisher builds are brutal and are the rare sort of unit that can reliably wipe another unit from existence a turn.

I think the exterminator has the benefit of its AV 14 platform, reliable accuracy, movement & the ability to field hull & sponson weapons. But I'm finding I'm running out of HS slots.

Are Bassies good/bad?

I generally run my TC HQ's as vanquishers. The bs4 is really helpful to the vanquisher. Generally he is also kitted with a LC/ MM. Ive almost always had an executioner with plasma sponsons as a wing tank to this vanquisher.

Punishers also have been my TC's before but I usually always have one vanquisher before I choose a punisher.

In my heavy support I usually have found a new love for the eradicator with heavy bolters all around. The eradicator puts out a good weight of fire that also insta kills t3 units and ignores cover and the tank flat out kills anything with a 4+ save.

Ive been tempted to run the eradicator with plasma sponsons so that it can fire 2 small blast(if it doesnt over heat) and one large blast as well as a heavy bolter, whats everyones view on this tank and my second idea with the plasma??

Also Ive been using dozer blades more often? anyone else do so since they are cheap????

I also like MM/LC Exterminator, very good in a lot of situations and is probably your best bet for AA if you're not taking Vendettas or spamming Hydras.

I've tried Pask in a Punisher with LC/MM and 2 PC/LC Executioners as wingmen - is an absolute beast. Rending with that many shots makes anything cry and Preferred Enemy is golden on Executioners, doesn't matter if you can reroll the scatter or not (our group still hasn't decided how it works), just rerolling Gets Hot and 1s to wound on plasma is amazing. Adding some Techpriests if you have points to spare can also be great for the additional split fire and repairs. However I've found the short range on the Punisher to be quite detrimental a lot of times and will be testing the Vanquisher Pask as an alternative.

And now a question.

I love the Eradicator, it just makes Xeno armies cry, but still can't decide on bolters or meltas for the sponsons.
Sure bolters make it more focused in it's primary role, but the Multi Meltas are the same cost and are .... well meltas and not dinky heavy bolters.

Ive thought about MM's as well for the eradicator but you are taking 2 weapons with shorter range and the heavy bolters will hit more and most likely do more wounds on xenos than the MM's would. The eradicator is good for taking out 4+ save units and horde type armies and the heavy bolters just seem to be better than MM's. I considered the PC's,

would anyone consider spending the 5 points on heavy stubbers to add more shots?

Thanks for all the great info guys, gonna take alot of your info to the table!

I tried a Commander in a vanquisher with lc and mm, worked pretty well. Teamed with an eradicator with LC and hbs. The hull LC is helpful for when I fail the split fire command, and the eradicator can still scatter enough off the target tank or mc to damage some local troops.

The punisher's short range is the killer for me, I don't want my commander getting that close to units with melta bombs. But four ap2 shots at bs4 from a tc vanquisher is quite appealing. Problem in the game yesterday was the Tau hammerhead was behind cover and had stealth, tough to break a 3+ cover save without fire on my target.

I've had an excellent run with Vanquisher Pask and his Punisher/Executioner bodyguards.

Does anyone field standard Battle tanks anymore? I was thinking for their price they might make a decent splatcannon for a low point game.

I throw Heavy Stubbers on my Chimera if I've got extra points available. I used turrets from Old Crowe models that have a built in Stubber so it looks decent. Granted they'll probably be firing snap-shots, but a Heavy 3 S4 36" range weapon isn't shabby for 5 points. I've plinked off plenty of last-man-standing MEQ and the final wounds of an MC with Stubbers.

DoW

Is it possible to make a relatively balanced all comers with a ton of russes?

i just got my hands on like 15 russ bodies :/

It seems they would have an exceptionally bad time with vehicles in cover saves. with no real way to get them ignore cover.

 Desubot wrote:
Is it possible to make a relatively balanced all comers with a ton of russes?

i just got my hands on like 15 russ bodies :/

It seems they would have an exceptionally bad time with vehicles in cover saves. with no real way to get them ignore cover.

Ram them.

Without ignores cover, its very tough to kill many vehicles these days. Playing against eldar, I know what i am talking about.

3+ cover in the open with jink or 2+ cover behind bunker...just great...

Raming wave serpents with Russ? Lol...no way.

One of the armies I run is an 1850 Armored Company themed army using standard FOC. Managed to cram in 9 Russes (TC Vanq+another Vanq+Exterminator, squad of assault tanks - Executioner+Demo+Punisher, squad of 3 sponsonless plain Russes), supported by 2 vet infantry squads w 2 flamers each in Chimera and a Hydra w camo netting (because it looks cool).

I don't know if it's competitive, but the shock value is there. I've only played it a couple of times. The first time they barely won against Daemons + CSM, the second time was a closely fought win against Dark Eldar. Hang on, just realized those games were at the end of 6th ed ... I'll need to try these armies in 7th - that would be quite awesome!

 Desubot wrote:
Is it possible to make a relatively balanced all comers with a ton of russes?

i just got my hands on like 15 russ bodies :/

It seems they would have an exceptionally bad time with vehicles in cover saves. with no real way to get them ignore cover.

Try to make sure your russes are in cover. A russes 14 front armor is extremely hard to take out so make it harder by trying to get some sort of cover. I guarantee your russes will last longer if its a shoot out.

If there are assault based units coming at you make sure you got platoons to back you up or have vets with plasma ready to spring forward to deal damage to assault or melta units that get close.

In my tank commander squad I like to have the Vanquisher to make use of bs4 and its great anti tank for a armored list. The warlord trait I would aim to have would be old grudges so I may take pask. I usually will have an executioner in the Warlords squad as preferred enemy allows more of the small blasts to avoid getting hot. Otherwise I dont really take the executioner anymore. Too many times Ive almost lost the tank to gettting hot.

Ive even taken 2 standard russes as wing tanks for a Tank commander. Most of the time the LRBT's can damage everything the vanquisher can damage.

For heavy slots Ive taken to the eradicator with heavy bolters all around. Very great for anti infantry and anything with 4+save or worse. I am considering throwing the stubber on now just to get 3 more shots in for this tank. Just as much as a LRBT you can get an eradicator with Heavy bolter sponsons, a dozer blade and a heavy stubber. that seems to be a fairly great tank for taking out enemy infantry and stacking wounds on a bigger target.

Whats everyones views on the vendetta now? depending on the list what do you prefer for anti air? Ive tried using a squad of 2 hydras and had some success and really liked them. Seems like a pretty fair trade to add to an armored list rather than trying to squeeze in the vendetta now.

 Desubot wrote:
Is it possible to make a relatively balanced all comers with a ton of russes?

i just got my hands on like 15 russ bodies :/

It seems they would have an exceptionally bad time with vehicles in cover saves. with no real way to get them ignore cover.

If you have that many Russ chassis, take a look at the Armoured Battlegroup (ABG) Forge World list. Rather than just having a Tank Commander as a HQ/Warlord, ABG is specifically designed for an entire armoured army, including Russes for Troops and Heavy Support.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Is it possible to make a relatively balanced all comers with a ton of russes?

i just got my hands on like 15 russ bodies :/

It seems they would have an exceptionally bad time with vehicles in cover saves. with no real way to get them ignore cover.

If you have that many Russ chassis, take a look at the Armoured Battlegroup (ABG) Forge World list. Rather than just having a Tank Commander as a HQ/Warlord, ABG is specifically designed for an entire armoured army, including Russes for Troops and Heavy Support.

Though 100% true it would be best to run with it. Id rather stick to the book i already have just to save the headache of dealing with the people that cant stand anything FW though maybe il make a list or 3 for fun

What ya guys think about possibly allying in DA for the fun time power fields as well shoving the PE aquilla inside a landraider (the buff raider) the people i play are ok with PE and reroll blasts (though anyone know how they play in competative settings?)

 Desubot wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Is it possible to make a relatively balanced all comers with a ton of russes?

i just got my hands on like 15 russ bodies :/

It seems they would have an exceptionally bad time with vehicles in cover saves. with no real way to get them ignore cover.

If you have that many Russ chassis, take a look at the Armoured Battlegroup (ABG) Forge World list. Rather than just having a Tank Commander as a HQ/Warlord, ABG is specifically designed for an entire armoured army, including Russes for Troops and Heavy Support.

Though 100% true it would be best to run with it. Id rather stick to the book i already have just to save the headache of dealing with the people that cant stand anything FW though maybe il make a list or 3 for fun

What ya guys think about possibly allying in DA for the fun time power fields as well shoving the PE aquilla inside a landraider (the buff raider) the people i play are ok with PE and reroll blasts (though anyone know how they play in competative settings?)

I'm not sure if the Buffraider is worth it, not with how many points it ends up being. That's close to two more Leman Russes worth of points not to mention the other crap you have to include just to get access to the Raider.

As for the ABG, which FW book is that in?

The main reason i wanted it in a raider was for the protection as i could just shove the whole thing into a chimera as well but a WS or two will just remove it T1. but to have say about 3 units of ex,demo, and even some basilisks behind getting to reroll the blasts i think its worth the investment (i know its not how everyone plays it but its how my group plays it)

i think ABG is Imperial armor 1 vol 2 IIRC or is a free download on forgeworld. not entire sure atm

I think it would be cheaper to get an aegis with an ammo dump if you are trying to get re-rolls on your blasts.

Oh right i forgot those are a thing
Il have to go dig through that book.

Desubot wrote:The main reason i wanted it in a raider was for the protection as i could just shove the whole thing into a chimera as well but a WS or two will just remove it T1. but to have say about 3 units of ex,demo, and even some basilisks behind getting to reroll the blasts i think its worth the investment (i know its not how everyone plays it but its how my group plays it)

i think ABG is Imperial armor 1 vol 2 IIRC or is a free download on forgeworld. not entire sure atm

It's in IA1 2nd Ed.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_VOLUME_ONE_SECOND_EDITION_IMPERIAL_GUARD.html

Leth wrote:I think it would be cheaper to get an aegis with an ammo dump if you are trying to get re-rolls on your blasts.

Aren't those like... 6" radius? You'd get two, maybe three tanks.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Leth wrote:I think it would be cheaper to get an aegis with an ammo dump if you are trying to get re-rolls on your blasts.

Aren't those like... 6" radius? You'd get two, maybe three tanks.

Probably fit about 4 and its a 3 inch radius. More if you pack them tight. But for two meltaguns in cost I ain't complaining.

Actually unless its different in the BRB

stronghold has it at 2" effecting only models :(

So thats out. sounds like bunker aqulia would be best with a void shield for fire protection.

I've used a DA librarian with power field generator (PFG) a few times with great success. It costs a good bit, 165pts for the psyker and sniper scouts but I feel is worth the cost. You can also get a DA techmarine with PFG that can actually fix allied vehicles now. (He can also bolster a ruin giving those camo scouts a 2+ cover save.)

(If you are just going to gunline go with an aegis)
In deployment it's easy to get a tiny bit of tread of other vehicles like hell hounds and chimera into the invul bubble. I know most people tell me online that an aegis does the same thing for so cheap, but there are some major differences.

Firstly it's an invul save which cannot be negated by marker lights and such.
It is mobile, you can leave your deployment zone with it.

It's easy to hide the libby behind the tank, but if they have barrage or somehow get behind you you have 10 look out sirs with a 4+ invul.

My first game trying it, I was playing against Tau/IG and wanted to test the durability. I had a punisher with the libby for prescience and a demolisher with a techmarine. The punisher died after 4 turns of riptide and 2 enemy demolisher fire. The demolisher only took 1 HP. They made it all the way to the enemy deployment and soaked up all his fire. After playing a few games I even started feeling a little bad, so I haven't tried it in 7th edition. I'm probably going to try it again with Pask and looking at IG techmarines. Does anyone else has any experience with the DA pfg?

The void field generators pair will with the all of AV14.
It's really annoying to have to knock down a few AV12's just to get a shot at AV14.
If you bubble wrap it right, it makes you immune to the drop pods turn 1. Pods come in and are forced to land outside the bubble (due to wrapping). The first few shots hit the void fields, and negate the meltaguns for that round.

Everyone's all tank happy, but I'd like to take my Vendetta out for a spin. The problem is that Maverick and Goose can now only pack in 6 models.

A few ideas came to mind though:

Human Bombs! SWS with 3x satchels. A few less points than a kitted vet squad, but dropping that much pie from a zooming flyer should make their points back...right?

Flame squad...PCS can now take heavy flamers (could they before?) So 3 reg/1heavy flamer and an lt to bark useless orders (maybe the shoot and run order would be ok).

Melta squad. CCS with meltas, makes sure you get the job done if the vendetta gutterballs its strafing run. Very pricey target as well, but it WILL kill something.


Maybe a suicide SWS of regular flamers might be ok also. I can't see doing melta though, too risky when you could get BS4 and big orders for 20 more points.

I really want to try the bomb idea, but I also like having friends.

Don't feel like the SWS with demo charges will label you a WAAC player. The fact that you will have to grav chute them out to keep your vendetta alive should be an equal trade off what with the 6" range of the bombs and grav chute scatter. You could possibly scatter out of range to use the bombs. I think it would be a fun option to try.

Has anyone tried using vets as a stationary fire base? I was thinking a Las or AC, with Forward Sentries in cover?

I am running this Wal-rus list and was wondering if I did it right?

Original 1475
HQ
Vanq + LC
Vanq + LC

HQ
Exterminator + MM + LC
Exterminator + MM + LC

Vet + chimera + ML + GL
Vet + chimera + ML + GL
Vet + chimera + ML + GL

HS
Executioner + sponsons
Executioner + sponsons

(Steel legion flavor, not efficient but its flufy)
(25 pts spare to either throw stuff out and get a Pask or throw in stubbers for as many tanks, the first thought was to run Pask)

New 1490 (after reading stuff)
HQ
Pask + Vanq + LC + MM
Executioner + sponsons
Executioner + sponsons

Vet + chimera + ML + GL// Melta x 2 combos
Vet + chimera + ML + GL// Melta x 2 combos
Vet + chimera + ML + GL// Melta x 2 combos

HS
Exterminator + LC + MM

Exterminator + LC + MM

Wyvern x2 (together for more killy I guess)

List 1 has 1 more wal-rus but list 2 has wyverns, which may be worth the vanquisher trade off considering I traded 2x Vanq with LC for a suped up Pask vanquisher. I will try it out and see how it goes. Sadly, the tanks are already painted and I'll have to re-kit one vanquisher if I do run list 2 :(

The other thing is that the 1st list won't have to rely on split fire order so they can instead focus down key targets and utilise the strike and shroud for the opening volleys.

meaples wrote:
I am running this Wal-rus list and was wondering if I did it right?

Original 1475
HQ
Vanq + LC
Vanq + LC

HQ
Exterminator + MM + LC
Exterminator + MM + LC

Vet + chimera + ML + GL
Vet + chimera + ML + GL
Vet + chimera + ML + GL

HS
Executioner + sponsons
Executioner + sponsons

(Steel legion flavor, not efficient but its flufy)
(25 pts spare to either throw stuff out and get a Pask or throw in stubbers for as many tanks, the first thought was to run Pask)

New 1490 (after reading stuff)
HQ
Pask + Vanq + LC + MM
Executioner + sponsons
Executioner + sponsons

Vet + chimera + ML + GL// Melta x 2 combos
Vet + chimera + ML + GL// Melta x 2 combos
Vet + chimera + ML + GL// Melta x 2 combos

HS
Exterminator + LC + MM

Exterminator + LC + MM

Wyvern x2 (together for more killy I guess)

List 1 has 1 more wal-rus but list 2 has wyverns, which may be worth the vanquisher trade off considering I traded 2x Vanq with LC for a suped up Pask vanquisher. I will try it out and see how it goes. Sadly, the tanks are already painted and I'll have to re-kit one vanquisher if I do run list 2 :(

The other thing is that the 1st list won't have to rely on split fire order so they can instead focus down key targets and utilise the strike and shroud for the opening volleys.

List two looks alright, i would put Pask in a Punisher with HB sponsons, you get 20 S5 shots from the punisher cannon with the chance of getting rending in there. The HBs are there to mop up whats left.

List two looks alright, i would put Pask in a Punisher with HB sponsons, you get 20 S5 shots from the punisher cannon with the chance of getting rending in there. The HBs are there to mop up whats left.

It's the range and AT that I may need sadly. I think I have enough AI to run amok with. Then again, Pask punisher has been making rounds so I can only make my call when I run the lists.

You can rend armor with the Pask Punisher, and you can re roll the pen restuls. I mean you wont be blowing up any LRs, but can deff strip them of hull points.

 Nashole211 wrote:
Has anyone tried using vets as a stationary fire base? I was thinking a Las or AC, with Forward Sentries in cover?

Yes I actually usually run in most of my lists(except the armor lists) a vet squad with a lascannon, x3 plasma guns and forward sentries. bs4 lascannons are so awesome and once the enemy gets close you can unload the plasma into them. They work great as they are usually in the rear of my army so if my opponent deepstrikes anything in the back to kill my tanks or try to take out my hq then the lascannon and plasma guns will fry them. If they go for the vets they will be extremely hard to get rid of and even if they do go for them then the infantry hoard in the front will take out the back field attackers.

Most of my gunline infantry lists usually compose of autocannnon and plasma gun or melta and lascannon infantry squads with 2 of these vet squads in support minimum. I have been thinking about running a whole vet list on foot as they are only 10 more points than the PIS and wont have the tax of having the PCS. Orders are nice but a neat tactic that can be tried is running 2 detachments. One with a CCS and 2-6 vets squads and in the other detachment run a CCS and 2-6 vets. Then you also have a lot of heavy support choices you can take.

Im actually working on building up 2 detachments currently. The first is a foot guard based list. Not sure if I want it to be gunline and sit back and shoot or if I want it to be able to advance. The then second detachment will be the scion valkyrie formation. 4 valks, scions command squad, 3 scion squads and a commissar to join one of them. the scions unfortunetly will cost me 1,160points with upgrades. Then depending on points I will build up a foot based AM detachment. Fluff for it is basically the AM need reinforcements and a scion airborne unit is that solution. Anyone think this could be competitive aside from a fluffy fun army?

The Punisher has a higher chance of exploding AV12 to death, as well as glancing it.

The Punisher has a 14% chance to explode AV13 on average, versus the Vanquisher's 19%, but the Punisher will put 2 glances on AV13 a turn versus the Vanquisher's 1 glance per turn.

The Punisher has a 0% chance of exploding AV 14, versus the the Vanquisher's 15% chance, but it puts one glance on AV14 per turn versus the Vanquisher's .5.

So honestly, the Vanquisher only holds its own against the Punisher against AV14. However, this isn't counting Multi-Melta sponsons (who's 24'' range compliments the Punisher cannon's 24 inch range perfectly), or the increased AI capabilities of the Punisher cannon versus the Vanquisher cannon.

Vanquisher has triple the range of the punisher.

Sentry vets are my go-to gunline unit, 3 snipers and 1 auto cannon, they're cheap and effective. Plant them in cover or on objectives, they can hit infantry at long range and the snare mines make them surprisingly resilient.

 TheSilo wrote:
Vanquisher has triple the range of the punisher.

True, however the games starts with you 24'' away from your opponents' deployment zone. 48'' range becomes irrelevant pretty quick in the average game, and most of the units that can stay 24'' away from you aren't going to care about a single Str8 armorbane shot anyway.

You have a 21% chance of blowing up an AV12 vehicle, and a 19% chance of blowing up an AV13 vehicle. That's not very efficient.

So, I keep hearing about the Vanquisher/Executioner combo for an HQ tank. Am I imagining things or is this a viable tank combination?

It's been several months since I last played 40k and I am trying to get back in. I had a couple questions that hopefully can be answered.

1. Are small squads of Wrydvane psykers running around buffing units a viable strategy?

2. Would a platoon be a viable addition to an otherwise mechanized army for backfield objective holding?

Both of these questions are in regards to a list I am trying to build. I am running kind of fluffy (several different regiments fighting together) so I understand some sacrifices will be made but I am curious to the responses to both questions.

With the new warp-charge system, I wouldn't consider Wyrdvane Psykers worth it anymore. They're ML1 which means you'll be sucking out more WC's just to use most of their powers then you'll be putting into your pool.

I love platoons, personally. At least one can fit in any list.

Better off getting a primaris psyker than a wyrdvane. Unless you are summoning daemons then go with the wyrdvanes. Platoons are amazing. 2 or 3 infantry squads with a priest and they are fearless objective sitting machines.

My favorite setup is a PCS w/4 flamers
3 infantry squads w/3 meltas
Priest and lvl2 Primaris Psyker
I go TK with the psyker hoping for levitation.

With the ability to take unlimited primary detachments, isn't taking a CCS and 2 vet squads literally now just a hair more expensive version of a PCS and 2 regular squads...but with BS4 and a lot more options?

Ok, good to know that Wyrdvanes are considered not worth it. And I am happy to hear that platoons are still good.

Here is the list I mentioned. Obviously, it will need some work, but I am happy with how it is looking so far.

Total: 1748

HQ:

Tank Commander:
Vanquisher: 178
Commander
Lascannon
Relic plating

Executioner: 155
Heavy bolter

Commissar: 25

Elites:

Wrydvane Psykers: 60
5 men

Wyrdvane Psykers: 60
5 men

Troops:
Platoon:
PCS: 40
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Infantry Squad: 60
Autocannon

Veterans: 120
3x plasma guns
Carapace armor
Chimera: 65
ML/HF

Veterans: 120
3x plasma guns
Carapace armor
Chimera: 65
ML/HF

Veterans: 105
3x melta
Carapace
Chimera:65
ML/HF

Veterans: 105
3x melta
Carapace
Chimera:65
ML/HF

Heavy Support:
Demolisher: 170
Heavy Bolter

Demolisher: 170
Heavy Bolter

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
Vanquisher has triple the range of the punisher.

True, however the games starts with you 24'' away from your opponents' deployment zone. 48'' range becomes irrelevant pretty quick in the average game, and most of the units that can stay 24'' away from you aren't going to care about a single Str8 armorbane shot anyway.

You have a 21% chance of blowing up an AV12 vehicle, and a 19% chance of blowing up an AV13 vehicle. That's not very efficient.

The Punisher is massively flawed for 4 reasons.

1) If the tank is immobilised, the the tank stops being relevant for the most part with its absurdly short range. Sometimes it can just be flat out ignored or avoided.
2) Its not adaptable to change across the board. If you start losing on the other flank, or desperately need more firepower there, you're really going to have problems.
3) You need to glance vehicles to death
4) It has greater pressure to do well.

If my math is correct, you're doing roughly 4 glances against AV12, (good) but only 2.7 against AV13, (fairly good, though technically not exactly reliable) and only 1.3 against AV14. (trash)

That's mostly good, so you should take the Pask Punisher for AT, right? No. The Vanquisher can be placed anywhere on a 6x4 board and always be in range. It has 72'' range, not 48'', though in fairness, even at 48'', using a hull Lascan, placed in the middle of your deployment you should be able to hit everything or be in immediate threat range of anything.

Meanwhile, if the Punisher screws up, that could potentially (probably even) spell death for the tank then and there. Say you're trying to gun down an assault transport, Imperial Knight, Walker or MC. In the following opponent's turn you're screwed if you failed to kill it outright. (Actually, you're potentially still screwed even if you killed the assault transport as its contents could still reach you)The Vanquisher doesn't have great maths on paper, but its a reliable tank that is way more safe to use.

This is also all if the Punisher is piloted by Pask, of course, and if you're taking Pask you're now putting all your other longer range tanks in the squadron potentially in a more risky position during games so his points aren't wasted. The Punisher is just mediocre at best outside of as a TC or Pask himself. The Demolisher is just naff and too expensive. The Vanquisher on the other hand is viable in a Pask/TC squadron as not being just piloted by the TC/Pask himself.

The proof is in the pudding with the Pask Punisher.

You don't bring it to hunt armour, you bring it to liquify hordes, GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, and MCs. The fact that it can open up AV10-11 like wet paper boxes is icing on the cake. The ability to strip a few hull points from AV12-14 when you literally have nothing else to shoot just means you will never not have a target (unless, as you mentioned, you're completely out of range).

It's expensive and short ranged, absolutely, but the value it brings to the table on an AV14 chassis is pretty impressive. Yes it's absolutely viable to bring a Vanquisher instead, and you will definitely put the hurt on heavy armour with that, but that doesn't make it 100% of the time the better choice.

To date, I've never been disappointed with a Pask Punisher and a brace of Executioner squadmates. Maybe I'll be enlightened when I play a few more games, but for now it's pretty stellar. Of course, YMMV.

DoW

The interesting thing I have noticed in the Vanquisher vs. Punisher debate is that people are very invested in their choices even though, fundamentally, they do very different things. The vanquisher is dedicated anti-tank while the punisher is semi-dedicated anti-infantry. Really I think that the choice of command tank comes down to what the rest of the lists armored support looks like. I run two demolishers in almost all of my lists (partially because I just know how to play those tanks and partially because I like the models) so my short range firepower is covered, so I lean towards running a vanquisher as my HQ (I also like to run him with a stock Russ, although I am going to try running an executioner instead) because I need long range fire support. Really, the decision for what you run as your HQ comes down to the needs of your list and personal preference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PolecatEZ wrote:
With the ability to take unlimited primary detachments, isn't taking a CCS and 2 vet squads literally now just a hair more expensive version of a PCS and 2 regular squads...but with BS4 and a lot more options?

Almost every tournament I have seen is limited the amount of detachments you can take. At least locally, the limit seems to be one combined arms detachment and either a formation or an ally in the allies slot.

Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The Punisher is massively flawed for 4 reasons.

1) If the tank is immobilised, the the tank stops being relevant for the most part with its absurdly short range. Sometimes it can just be flat out ignored or avoided.
2) Its not adaptable to change across the board. If you start losing on the other flank, or desperately need more firepower there, you're really going to have problems.
3) You need to glance vehicles to death
4) It has greater pressure to do well.

If my math is correct, you're doing roughly 4 glances against AV12, (good) but only 2.7 against AV13, (fairly good, though technically not exactly reliable) and only 1.3 against AV14. (trash)

That's mostly good, so you should take the Pask Punisher for AT, right? No. The Vanquisher can be placed anywhere on a 6x4 board and always be in range. It has 72'' range, not 48'', though in fairness, even at 48'', using a hull Lascan, placed in the middle of your deployment you should be able to hit everything or be in immediate threat range of anything.

Meanwhile, if the Punisher screws up, that could potentially (probably even) spell death for the tank then and there. Say you're trying to gun down an assault transport, Imperial Knight, Walker or MC. In the following opponent's turn you're screwed if you failed to kill it outright. (Actually, you're potentially still screwed even if you killed the assault transport as its contents could still reach you)The Vanquisher doesn't have great maths on paper, but its a reliable tank that is way more safe to use.

This is also all if the Punisher is piloted by Pask, of course, and if you're taking Pask you're now putting all your other longer range tanks in the squadron potentially in a more risky position during games so his points aren't wasted. The Punisher is just mediocre at best outside of as a TC or Pask himself. The Demolisher is just naff and too expensive. The Vanquisher on the other hand is viable in a Pask/TC squadron as not being just piloted by the TC/Pask himself.

The point about immobilization is a fair one and I think your most credible argument against the Pask-Punisher- a single bad roll on the damage chart can screw it pretty fast. But by that same token, all it takes is a bad roll on the weapon destroyed roll to neuter a Punisher or a Vanquisher or almost any other vehicle. Hell, the statistical likelihood of rolling a 5 on a D6 is equal to rolling a 6, and on a 6 the damn thing just explodes. So is the Vanquisher really any safer? At the end of the day, for any Russ there comes a point where you simply need to trust the AV14. As far as the threat of a "collapsing flank", well, I control where my units are on the board, not the enemy, and the 30'' threat range of the Punisher (or 46'' if you used Full Throttle the previous turn, a tactic I know from reading your mini-batreps you're rightly fond of) is a large enough bubble for me to not have to consistently worry about that. The board is only so big.

The crux of your argument basically comes down to "the Punisher is short-ranged, the Vanquisher is long-ranged, therefore the Vanquisher has an advantage." I don't agree. It's not worth comparing the two on an anti-infantry point, as obviously the Punisher is superior on every level, but even as far as AV, the Vanquisher, frankly, is balls at anti-vehicle. It has a 22% chance to explode AV12, and a 15% chance to explode AV14. So it is reliable, but what is it actually reliable at? It certainly isn't reliable at exploding vehicles, not mathematically. The only thing it will reliably do is... take a single hull-point off a vehicle every turn.

I'm not trying to gak on the Vanquisher though. I suppose that in some peoples meta, that near-guaranteed -1 HP a turn may be worth it, I suppose. As far as my own playstyle, I prefer more versatility in regards to effectiveness against different targets, and with the changes to the vehicle damage chart, glancing a vehicle to death rather than relying on pen's is more important than ever , and is something that the Punisher excels at, in addition to its excellent handling of hordes, MC's and MEQ.

 Billagio wrote:

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

You get to reroll your "Gets Hot" rolls.

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Nashole211 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Ok, so I thought about running my pask vanq with 1-2 executioner command squadmates before I read this thread. After reading, it seems to be the general consensus as well. What im trying to figure out is why? It just seemed to me like a cool thing to do but I dont know why executioners in the same squad is more advantageous than a LRBT or exterminator or another variant.

Also, what is the judgement on the standard LRBT? Last codex it was probably the best one, or maybe top 2, but this codex it seems to have dropped in favor? If not a LRBT, what else would you take instead if you plan on taking 2-4 Russes outside of your command squad?

If you make Pask your warlord, his trait allows you to reroll 1s. The problem with the LRBT is it no longer has the Lumbering Behemoth rule, and buried in the vehicle rules is “a vehicle that fires an Ordnance Weapon can only make snap shot with its other weapons that turn”.

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

You get to reroll your "Gets Hot" rolls.

Yes this^

allowing the rerolls to hit for the gets hot means the tank will never over heat. And you can always use the order to split fire so the vanq can take care of heavy armor and the executioners focus on light armor or infantry.

 tankboy145 wrote:

 Nashole211 wrote:

So you can reroll your wound roles of 1, but that dosent really do anything for the executioner for rerolling 1s to hit since they shoot blasts right? Yeah I noticed that, I usually dont give them sponsons anyways though.

You get to reroll your "Gets Hot" rolls.

Exactly this.

The Executioner is a very powerful tank (esp. with Plasma Sponsons) and it's cheaper this edition. The downside is that it has a fairly likely chance of wrecking itself in a game, shooting 5 templates (each shot generates a Gets Hot! roll) each turn. With Pask, you can all but ignore this effect with Preferred Enemy, giving you all the benefit of a cheaper, 5-shot, S7 AP2 blast AV14 vehicle, that can split fire (with a successful Ld9 test) with none of the drawbacks.

I'm really not sure I'll take anything else as squadron buddies for Pask unless there's some kind of FAQ/Errata released regarding the Gets Hot! re-rolls and PE. It's just too good a deal to pass up.

DoW

On a sidenote, I don't see it being listed for Hellhounds as them having scout.

I could have sworn they did in the 5E 'dex. Is this a change or am I high?

The codex is not in my hand but im sure they removed it. i beleive it is only fast IIRC

on some side notes: dont forget not to run psykers with yarrick. he already BLAMED two for perls :(

Ramming with russes against CCB and other vehicles is an awesome way to get passed jinx as well is a st10 hit to pen those damn quantum shielding

Pask pushiner deals out a boat load of wounds and HP stripping but his range really is an issue. considering keeping him cheap in a las vanquisher instead.

How come the russ generates such a high str hit. i dont have my book atm.

konst80hummel wrote:
How come the russ generates such a high str hit. i dont have my book atm.

Ramming IIRC is half your AV rounded up + 1 for tank + 2 for heavy vehicle so 7 + 1 + 2 i dont think it was distance dependent anymore or we misread everything.

I seeeeee (evil squeal)Thanks

So it provides a STR 7 + 2(heavy) + 1(tank) + 1(dozer) for a STR 11 max? Provided anything ever gets within 6" of your tank and they somehow forgot the ramming rule, I'd say this is golden. Also probably the best 1 trick pony to use against eldar wave serpent spammers XD

All in all, I am going to run vanquishers for a bit to see how they fair. Will have wyverns and executioners for crowd control and vanqs for AT. Exterminators are just the run-off the mill all purpose dakka tank XD

The highest strength you can go to for anything in the game is strength 10.

So even if you had someone who was strength 7 and they used a powerfist (doubles strength), they would be strength 10, not strength 14.

I really want to love the punisher, i really do, but most of my opponents live in the realm of space marines so it only takes a few guys to get in close and wreck any of my tanks with Krak Grenades (which makes me sad). Id venture to say that 70% of Russ deaths are attributed to krak grenades over even meltas. Next time i run pask im going to try the vanquisher

 Desubot wrote:

konst80hummel wrote:
How come the russ generates such a high str hit. i dont have my book atm.

Ramming IIRC is half your AV rounded up + 1 for tank + 2 for heavy vehicle so 7 + 1 + 2 i dont think it was distance dependent anymore or we misread everything.

And if you don't kill what you ram, you can always shoot it.

Also dont forget if you get unfortunate and roll a second set of 1s for gets hot, on a roll of a 1-3 the tank then lose a hull point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Less than 3 weeks now and i will finally be able to get my first game in of 7th haha. Hopfully after that i can add more to this thread!

Something to note, when you ram you have to shoot snap shots.

I did not know this^ I will have to find this in the book. Seems pointless to ram with a russ then at that point unless you are already snap firing.

So what is everyone's thoughts on Relic plating? I have found that running it on things that will draw lots of psychic fire (namely HQ tanks) is a nice little boost and helps to mitigate some of the potential damage.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I did not know this^ I will have to find this in the book. Seems pointless to ram with a russ then at that point unless you are already snap firing.

True, which is why I'd only ram with the exterminator variant since the snap shots won't hurt too much. Either way, it is a free auto hit STR 10 attack which is why even with the snap shooting, this almost guarantees the removal of 1 HP which in certain circumstances could be vital. Would be funny to see Dark eldar run their pirate ships close by only to get hammered by ninja ram XD

or if you are going to shoot at a flier.

As to relic plating, I very rarely finid that I have the extra points and now that puppet master is gone its a low priority.

 Leth wrote:
or if you are going to shoot at a flier.

As to relic plating, I very rarely finid that I have the extra points and now that puppet master is gone its a low priority.

This. With the changes in psychic powers, Blessings are going to be the priority for most every army's casting dice. I can see Witchfires (other than things like Psychic Shriek since it's the primaris in the discipline with the best Blessing) almost disappearing, and a major reduction in the casting of Maledictions.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 Leth wrote:
or if you are going to shoot at a flier.

As to relic plating, I very rarely finid that I have the extra points and now that puppet master is gone its a low priority.

This. With the changes in psychic powers, Blessings are going to be the priority for most every army's casting dice. I can see Witchfires (other than things like Psychic Shriek since it's the primaris in the discipline with the best Blessing) almost disappearing, and a major reduction in the casting of Maledictions.

Actually I believe the opposite, that maledictions actually got a lot stronger in many ways.

Before you had a minimum of a default failure rate of 16.7 percent. Now that is not the case. In addition you can simply overwhelm their defenses with lots of dice. If they are lacking in psychic defenses than once their d6 dice are gone they cant do anything to stop you. Number of times I have rolled a one against someone with no psykers and just had free reign, its fantastic.

Start by casting the blessings that will draw out their dispel pools and then just start throwing maledictions. Or vice versa(depending on your strategy).

I think before I use relic plating my russ will probably have a dozer blade. Denying got a little bit harder and usually my army doesn't have many psykers anyways so to me I probably won't ever put relic playing on it.

I played a game today against ultra marines. I ran pask as the HQ choice (punisher with heavy bolters and dozer blade) with a matching punisher in the squad. In front I ran a squad of 5 bullgryn along with a DA librarian (level 2, terminator armor, PFG).

Kept the Libby close to the bullgryn, joined the unit, kept pask close too. The bullgryn soaked up,a bunch of shots. T5, 3 wound,3+/4+ armoir with a 4+ invul save is fun to have.

Not the best tactic I could agree, points spent elsewhere for something better, true. It was just fun.

For me, the biggest change was to leave my psykers on the shelf. Sure, they have the potential of doing some amazing things, but leaving out my psykers gave me so much additional points that I was able to field a total of 117 models in an 1850 game - and that's with 4 Leman Russes, a Hellhound, Vendetta, etc. Other than that, my infantry IG has been doing pretty much the same thing they've been doing for the longest time. I haven't tried out my mech infantry and armored company yet.

I tried my hands at a 1k mechish list against a 1k daemon factory,

Gotta say, i love the eradicator and manticore. being able to ignore/intervening terrain was very helpful.

and a pask vanquisher and buddy was no pushover ether even with no enemy vehicles.

Then thinking back to my previous game, i now want to buy/build my self a Edit: Booo i ment gorgon :( for delicious st10 12" range super heavy ramming and tank shock + 2 units charging out of it (ether a demo vet squad or some angry dark angel terminators )

From how I've felt I think heavy infantry list with some russ support is one of the best ways to go. Some armies really can't handle dealing with lots of bodies. I played against crons with a foot list running msu and I practically tabled him.

Vets with lascannons as support for infantry platoons moving up really proved well as having russes in support.

The eradicator is really a great tank. Using it with heavy bolter sponsons is amazing for putting wounds and moping up infantry.

I have a question are vets with shotguns any use. Back in 5th i had two squads of melta/ shotgun vets in a autocannon chimera. Are they still viable?

 brochtree wrote:
I have a question are vets with shotguns any use. Back in 5th i had two squads of melta/ shotgun vets in a autocannon chimera. Are they still viable?

In my opinion, not really.

You can't assault out of a stationary Chimera like you could in 5th, so having Assault shotguns (vs Rapid Fire lasguns) isn't as much of a benefit.
Assaulting with 10 S3 T3 WS3 guys wasn't really going to do much, regardless.

The opportunity to reach out to 24", even with a single, S3 AP- shot, is nice to have.
Being within 12" (to even shoot) with the shotguns means you're in charge range (2D6) for everything in the game. That's more of a liability.

It's a small factor, but shotguns cannot benefit from the FRFSRF order. Some people occasionally take non-mechanized Veterans and this could come into play in certain circumstances.

I may be missing something vital, but I don't think many people took shotguns on their Veterans even in 5th edition. In fact, the point was usually raised that if shotguns were S4, then it would be something to consider. As it stands, trading Rapid Fire for Assault 2 just wasn't worth it.

As an aside, I always liked the standard Multilasers on my Chimeras. Don't get me wrong, S7 is great and AP4 can be very useful, but 3 shots that still wound MEQ on a 2+ (and neither is AP3) always seemed more valuable. Now I almost always throw the 5 point Heavy Stubber for 3 snap shots at S4. At half the price it used to be, I think it's well worth it.

DoW

i got a question that i'd like to throw out to the group:

when preparing for fliers, what is your preference between two hydras (140pts) or an aegis defense line w/ quad gun (100pts) and why? i've been leaning towards the ADL due to its lower cost and 4+ cover save (not to mention the option of using interceptor), but two hydras seem a lot more resilient. want to get your general thoughts then we can talk more specifically to certain scenarios or tactics.

also... if there's a better counter for fliers (at similar point cost) that i'm totally missing please enlighten me!

cheers

40 less points and you get a giant wall of 4+ cover and interceptor on a t7 2w model (unless they changed it) instead of 4 more shots.

Honestly i have to like interceptor and cover more as it helps out more of my army.

Im finding that besides from cron air, i can ignore most flyers and FMC. otherwise shoot it till its dead or force them to maneuver past you with large amounts of bodies or vehicles (they can generally only move 18" minimum with a 90 degrees turning arc. so if you have the orders or the flat out, you can park your self in ways that makes it so most flyers ether have to fly off board or have less targets.

 Desubot wrote:
40 less points and you get a giant wall of 4+ cover and interceptor on a t7 2w model (unless they changed it) instead of 4 more shots.

Honestly i have to like interceptor and cover more as it helps out more of my army.

Im finding that besides from cron air, i can ignore most flyers and FMC. otherwise shoot it till its dead or force them to maneuver past you with large amounts of bodies or vehicles (they can generally only move 18" minimum with a 90 degrees turning arc. so if you have the orders or the flat out, you can park your self in ways that makes it so most flyers ether have to fly off board or have less targets.

thanks for the response. i'm actually playin' crons later tonight, which is what prompted the question. not sure if he'll be bringing fliers or not but want to be prepared. ADL seems to make more sense for that reason since i'll at least be left with cover if he doesn't field any. that 7th edition change to skyfire makes those hydras a one trick pony.

The problem with a quad gun is an ammo depot is dirt cheap at the cost of 4 guardsmen. The ammo depot is really good when combine with plasma gunners.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The problem with a quad gun is an ammo depot is dirt cheap at the cost of 4 guardsmen. The ammo depot is really good when combine with plasma gunners.

The only problem with the ammo depot is the range. 2 inchs of models isnt much and the range can be kinda skirted around. just a little thing

 Desubot wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The problem with a quad gun is an ammo depot is dirt cheap at the cost of 4 guardsmen. The ammo depot is really good when combine with plasma gunners.

The only problem with the ammo depot is the range. 2 inchs of models isnt much and the range can be kinda skirted around. just a little thing

It's large enough to squeeze 3 chimeras within the radius. Also blobs can conga line a few models back towards the ammo depot.

 eluxir wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
40 less points and you get a giant wall of 4+ cover and interceptor on a t7 2w model (unless they changed it) instead of 4 more shots.

Honestly i have to like interceptor and cover more as it helps out more of my army.

Im finding that besides from cron air, i can ignore most flyers and FMC. otherwise shoot it till its dead or force them to maneuver past you with large amounts of bodies or vehicles (they can generally only move 18" minimum with a 90 degrees turning arc. so if you have the orders or the flat out, you can park your self in ways that makes it so most flyers ether have to fly off board or have less targets.

thanks for the response. i'm actually playin' crons later tonight, which is what prompted the question. not sure if he'll be bringing fliers or not but want to be prepared. ADL seems to make more sense for that reason since i'll at least be left with cover if he doesn't field any. that 7th edition change to skyfire makes those hydras a one trick pony.

Ive actually experimented with both. Ive used the aegis/quad gun combo enough to know its very good. Recently Ive started trying to use hydras and they did their job. A squad of 2 works really well as it also puts a good amount of wounds on flying monstrous creatures. I havent played skimmer armies but seeing as hydras can fire normally at skimmers they will be able to do a little more in certain scenarios.

Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

I've actually picked up the book and plan on using the formation this week. It's rather confusing for the tank commander as it says 1 tank commander, 3 leman russ squadrons and a hydra. Now can the tc be an upgrade in one of the russ squadrons or do you teqnically have to have 4 squads since the tc has to have another russ in his squad or because it's says one tc does he not have to take a squad member?

 tankboy145 wrote:
I've actually picked up the book and plan on using the formation this week. It's rather confusing for the tank commander as it says 1 tank commander, 3 leman russ squadrons and a hydra. Now can the tc be an upgrade in one of the russ squadrons or do you teqnically have to have 4 squads since the tc has to have another russ in his squad or because it's says one tc does he not have to take a squad member?

I read it as you have to take those options from the codex, so it would be three squadrons + Tank Commander's squadron.

I am hoping to pick up a physical copy of that book soon.

The formation tells you the entries in the codex that you have to take - so in the formation you must take a Tank Commander (the codex entry), who in turn must have 1-2 Russ buddies with him in a squadron. However it also means you can take all the options of a Tank Commander - including Pask. So you can take Pask plus a Squadron buddy, 3 x Russ squadrons and a Hydra, all of which are getting PE without needing to have Pask as your Warlord. So that's 5 Russes inc Pask & a Hydra for ~ 1000 pts depending on Russ loadout. That's mean.

BTW, it doesn't help matters when the White Dwarf article says "you can take a squadron with the Tank Commander" or somesuch. No Mr White Dwarf person, the Codex says "must", not "can" or "may". RTFR.

It's also not restricting the rest of your army to IG either, as any Imperial List can ally to the Formation as Battle Brothers. My current thought is a GK CAD with Coteaz as Warlord, a buddy Inquisitor, 3 Troops of min Henchmen in Psybacks, 2 Rhinos with more henchmen with an Inquisitor in each and the above Steel Host Formation. Should fit into ~1650pts. 5 Russ's including Pask, 3 Psybacks, 2 Rhinos, a Hydra, 10 OS units, 13 ML and 4 Psychic Screams per turn without having to get out the Rhinos.

Hmm running into a bit of an uncommon problem. friend running tzeench daemons at 1500 points was poping out about 40 some odd warp charges. is that right??? 8 heralds LoC and a bunch of pink things all over the place. is that possible?

I chucked in 2 lv2 primaris psykers and came to the conclusion that against excessively warp charged armies i will never cast a thing and will rarely deny anything :/ would it be best to chuck those points into say more tanks?

 tankboy145 wrote:
Ive actually experimented with both. Ive used the aegis/quad gun combo enough to know its very good. Recently Ive started trying to use hydras and they did their job. A squad of 2 works really well as it also puts a good amount of wounds on flying monstrous creatures. I havent played skimmer armies but seeing as hydras can fire normally at skimmers they will be able to do a little more in certain scenarios.

just now realized that hydras can shoot at skimmers with full BS! that is awesome. thank you for pointing that out, thought it only applied to firing at fliers and FMC.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

just hearing you say that makes me want to buy the book. that steel host sounds super mean and i'm dying to use my bullgryns more. when bullgryns are equipped with the slabshield they get +1 to their armour save and if any model is partially obscured (by a model with a slabshield) they get +1 to their cover save. soooo intervening models (5+) and slabshield give you a 4+ cover save right? does the datasheet give any other perks or just a reduced point cost for the bullgryns? i've played them with the power maul/brute shield and they did some serious damage in close combat. but at 190pts for 3 of them, it's a bit pricey IMO. still fun to field!

 eluxir wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

just hearing you say that makes me want to buy the book. that steel host sounds super mean and i'm dying to use my bullgryns more. when bullgryns are equipped with the slabshield they get +1 to their armour save and if any model is partially obscured (by a model with a slabshield) they get +1 to their cover save. soooo intervening models (5+) and slabshield give you a 4+ cover save right? does the datasheet give any other perks or just a reduced point cost for the bullgryns? i've played them with the power maul/brute shield and they did some serious damage in close combat. but at 190pts for 3 of them, it's a bit pricey IMO. still fun to field!

The bullgryn formation adds a further +1 to models standing behind them. So the shield/maul would give a 4+ and the slabshield would give a 3+.

 Happygrunt wrote:

The bullgryn formation adds a further +1 to models standing behind them. So the shield/maul would give a 4+ and the slabshield would give a 3+.

Would be Awesome with a Steel host that has camo gear or just regular IG Tanks, till the wave serpents happen.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 eluxir wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Has anyone tried out the new IG data sheets yet? The sanctus reach book only has two, but they are both looking pretty good (and one might make bullgryn viable )

The Steel Host is basically an armored commander's dream with several LRBT squadrons, a commander and ONE hydra. The commander gives off a 12" aura of preferred enemy to his formation.

The bullgryn one (the name escapes me) has a minimum of 10 bullgryn and a token PCS. The kicker is that the bullgryn grant +1 cover to what ever they stand in front of. By my math, wouldn't that give anything behind the slab shields a 3+ save?

just hearing you say that makes me want to buy the book. that steel host sounds super mean and i'm dying to use my bullgryns more. when bullgryns are equipped with the slabshield they get +1 to their armour save and if any model is partially obscured (by a model with a slabshield) they get +1 to their cover save. soooo intervening models (5+) and slabshield give you a 4+ cover save right? does the datasheet give any other perks or just a reduced point cost for the bullgryns? i've played them with the power maul/brute shield and they did some serious damage in close combat. but at 190pts for 3 of them, it's a bit pricey IMO. still fun to field!

The bullgryn formation adds a further +1 to models standing behind them. So the shield/maul would give a 4+ and the slabshield would give a 3+.

well that's sexy.

 Desubot wrote:
Hmm running into a bit of an uncommon problem. friend running tzeench daemons at 1500 points was poping out about 40 some odd warp charges. is that right??? 8 heralds LoC and a bunch of pink things all over the place. is that possible?

I chucked in 2 lv2 primaris psykers and came to the conclusion that against excessively warp charged armies i will never cast a thing and will rarely deny anything :/ would it be best to chuck those points into say more tanks?

Well, 8 ml3 TzHeralds will give you 24 warp charges. Pink Horrors are mastery level 3 when a unit has 16-20 models in it, so if you were to 6 squads, that'd give you an additional 18 wc's for a grand total if 42+D6 warp charges. Dunno if you can fit 8 heralds and 6 horror squads into a 1500 point list, but you can probably get close.

With the IG you have a defense against daemon factory lists though. You're right that taking psykers is pointless- however it's very easy for Guard to slaughter a ton of horrors early game. They're T3 with 5+ saves. The grimoire can't protect them all, and even cursed earth will only give thdm a 4+ save.

A squad or two of wyverns will absolutely wreck a horror-spam list.

Edit- unless he's taking a second detachment, he shouldn't be able to take 8 heralds and a LOC. 4 heralds=1 HQ slot.

It was a double. I was considering a wyvern or 3 but went with a manticore and eradicaters. Might have to kill some points for a battery

The rule for wyverns is this "How many wyverns you got, it doesnt matter you need two more"

Seriously if you have to even ask if you should get more wyverns, you dont have enough wyverns.

All joking aside I believe the money spot is either one unit of two, potentially 1 unit of three.

well i'm scratch building two wyverns. i am tempted to see about these formations as if they make ogryn's usable i would be happy.

So is anyone having issues with list building?

Im having trouble covering my bases, or should i throw caution to the wind and go full ham with 2 vets as troop only?

Its a good problem to have having too many choices.

I am not having problems but I run blob guard so I literally have all my bases covered.

That and pimp daddy yarrick to fill the gaps

Actually iv ran that quite a bit but run into Yarrick BLAM ing my psykers when they perils (which happen to be alot :( )

Otherwise the big unit assplods quickly to focused fire if i dont have a forewarning psyker on them.

Think id be better to shove the psykers into another near by squad?

If your not against allies I would bring in psykers from other armies such as inquisition or space marines so they dont get blamed.

Also inquisition is a good source of cheap warp charges.

 Desubot wrote:
Hmm running into a bit of an uncommon problem. friend running tzeench daemons at 1500 points was poping out about 40 some odd warp charges. is that right??? 8 heralds LoC and a bunch of pink things all over the place. is that possible?

I chucked in 2 lv2 primaris psykers and came to the conclusion that against excessively warp charged armies i will never cast a thing and will rarely deny anything :/ would it be best to chuck those points into say more tanks?

My buddy actually did the math and it's actually better for the Astra militarum to bring more guns. He did the math for a blob of 3 infantry squads armed with 3 lascannons and found that you need a 4 squad blob to really benefit from the prescience. Once you run into psychic heavy armies it becomes so easy for them to deny you.

Since then I have listened to his advice and so far bringing more guns does better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes always bring a squad of 2 wyverns. The only time I don't run wyverns is in my russ heavy armored lists where I try to get my hydras to cover the air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...the steel host is a formation, don't you still need a primary detachment for your army?

Did his math include senior orders into the equation? I know personally the main advantage of prescience/other div spells is that they synergize well with my other buffs

 Desubot wrote:
So is anyone having issues with list building?

Im having trouble covering my bases, or should i throw caution to the wind and go full ham with 2 vets as troop only?

Been having a lot of success with Pask and the various combinations he can bring in his squad. Where I get torn is the troop load out... There are just so many different combinations and options to consider. Lately I've been fielding two platoons for my troop slots with 2-3 flamers in the PCS and ACs or HBs in the 10men squads. Also been fielding a conscript blob with a priest for wrapping around the tanks or sitting on objectives. Haven't tried it yet but I've been considering dropping the platoons for 2 vet squads w/ chimeras. Also want to field my ogryns or bullgryns more since my opponents are always trying to get me into close combat but still find it hard to justify the points for those guys.

 Leth wrote:
Did his math include senior orders into the equation? I know personally the main advantage of prescience/other div spells is that they synergize well with my other buffs

The math was fairly simple. Assuming a stock primaris psyker, you buy ld 10 for the squad and prescience. For 3 lascannons, that means taking 1.5 hits to 2.25 hits. 20 points more nets you a forth lascannon and nine more wounds, taking you to 2 hits average but also boosting your hit potential from 3 to 4, and giving you more guns to benefit from the orders.

This assumes prescience went off without a hitch, and continuously does so.

After you add that forth gun, prescience gets notably better.

As with most things with IG, our abilities get much better with scale. A commissar is a weak buy for a guard squad, but on a 30 man blob he's a steal. Orders similarly aren't useful on single squads, except vets or maybe heavy weapons squads. Prescience should probably be targeting your vehicles, particularly if they're in a squadron.

So ive been thinking of allying in Space Marines and taking a Master of the Forge and two tech marines. I would bolster 3 terrian peices and put 3 vet squads in there with sentries and most likely las cannons for a 2+ cover save. I would take a 10 man tac squad with melta in a Drop pod and maybe buy the MoF and Tech Marines a Las Back. What do you guys think?

Well I ran the steel host formation today and I will say that I am happy with the formation. I ran a a bare minimum of 5 russes set up as:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM
Executioner with plasma sponsons

Squad 1: vanquisher-LC/PC
Squad 2: x2 LRBT's
Squad 3: eradicator HB's

Then there's the hydra

What's nice about this is that the lone hydra doesn't pose a huge anti air threat and most flyers would rather focus on taking out infantry or going right for armor. With all the russes your opponent may not worry about that hydra. I know in my game the storm raven ignored the hydra which ended with the hydra bringing the flyer down.

The russes themselves were great. I really liked running battle tanks and executioners with this formation.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Well I ran the steel host formation today and I will say that I am happy with the formation. I ran a a bare minimum of 5 russes set up as:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM
Executioner with plasma sponsons

Squad 1: vanquisher-LC/PC
Squad 2: x2 LRBT's
Squad 3: eradicator HB's

Then there's the hydra

What's nice about this is that the lone hydra doesn't pose a huge anti air threat and most flyers would rather focus on taking out infantry or going right for armor. With all the russes your opponent may not worry about that hydra. I know in my game the storm raven ignored the hydra which ended with the hydra bringing the flyer down.

The russes themselves were great. I really liked running battle tanks and executioners with this formation.

that looks deadly. really want to try this formation. did you use the datasheet that was included in the sanctus reach book? i'm curious to know what benefits the formation has.

also, you said you ran five russes... did you mean to write six since your second tank squad has 2 LRBTs? not trying to be a stickler, just trying to learn more about the formation and see if i should splurge and buy the sanctus reach book.

Yes! There was 6 my bad I forgot when I was writing up points I had enough for another battle tank so I figured I would throw it in lol.

Requirements are a tank command, 3 leman russ squadrons and a hydra so you have to take the tank commander which also has to take another russ then you can have 3 lone russes or if you want to add more you could spam 12 russes with this(3 with tc and 3 in each of the 3 squadrons)

The only special ability or rule it gives you is that any of the vehicles within 12" of the tc gets preferred enemy. So pretty much the battle tanks were having a field day just wounding everything.

Other than that no special rules. Basically this formation just allows you to run a russ heavy army with a hydra as anti air support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If your getting the book for just the formation then I would pass. It's a page. And I listed the requirements and the one special rule that the formation gets so you know everything you need. But if you love a good story the book had a great amount of fluff and even has the updated rules for planet strike which is how I tested this formation out and the rules are actually very fun.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Yes! There was 6 my bad I forgot when I was writing up points I had enough for another battle tank so I figured I would throw it in lol.

Requirements are a tank command, 3 leman russ squadrons and a hydra so you have to take the tank commander which also has to take another russ then you can have 3 lone russes or if you want to add more you could spam 12 russes with this(3 with tc and 3 in each of the 3 squadrons)

The only special ability or rule it gives you is that any of the vehicles within 12" of the tc gets preferred enemy. So pretty much the battle tanks were having a field day just wounding everything.

Other than that no special rules. Basically this formation just allows you to run a russ heavy army with a hydra as anti air support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If your getting the book for just the formation then I would pass. It's a page. And I listed the requirements and the one special rule that the formation gets so you know everything you need. But if you love a good story the book had a great amount of fluff and even has the updated rules for planet strike which is how I tested this formation out and the rules are actually very fun.

thanks for all the info! have you tried out the ogryn/bullgryn formation yet?

Unfortunetly not. It's grants one additional point of cover. But I don't have the models to try it with.

 Nashole211 wrote:
So ive been thinking of allying in Space Marines and taking a Master of the Forge and two tech marines. I would bolster 3 terrian peices and put 3 vet squads in there with sentries and most likely las cannons for a 2+ cover save. I would take a 10 man tac squad with melta in a Drop pod and maybe buy the MoF and Tech Marines a Las Back. What do you guys think?

That's pretty sneaky.

I could see myself perhaps making a drop-pod Sally's list with a MotF HQ and a Tech-Marine, then take an allied Guard detachment consisting of a tank commander and his bros, a guardsmen platoon with heavy weapons and a squadron of wyverns.

Give the wyverns and guardsmen camo-cloaks/netting and stick them in the improved cover granted by the MotF/TM for a cozy 2+ cover save, then push up the tanks to wreak havock after your drop-podding marines neutralize most of the scariest things in your opponent's list.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Unfortunetly not. It's grants one additional point of cover. But I don't have the models to try it with.

I'd be really interested in hearing some feedback for that formation. I haven't been a huge fan of Ogryns in general, but the extra point of cover is pretty nifty and I had a good idea about using the Ogryn as a way to get some of those 30k robot models on the field. It's a pretty large purchase if the Ogryn simply aren't going to work even for semi-competitive play though.

 eluxir wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
Well I ran the steel host formation today and I will say that I am happy with the formation. I ran a a bare minimum of 5 russes set up as:

Vanquisher-TC/LC/MM
Executioner with plasma sponsons

Squad 1: vanquisher-LC/PC
Squad 2: x2 LRBT's
Squad 3: eradicator HB's

Then there's the hydra

What's nice about this is that the lone hydra doesn't pose a huge anti air threat and most flyers would rather focus on taking out infantry or going right for armor. With all the russes your opponent may not worry about that hydra. I know in my game the storm raven ignored the hydra which ended with the hydra bringing the flyer down.

The russes themselves were great. I really liked running battle tanks and executioners with this formation.

that looks deadly. really want to try this formation. did you use the datasheet that was included in the sanctus reach book? i'm curious to know what benefits the formation has.

also, you said you ran five russes... did you mean to write six since your second tank squad has 2 LRBTs? not trying to be a stickler, just trying to learn more about the formation and see if i should splurge and buy the sanctus reach book.

If you just want the Steel Host Formation datasheet it's in White Dwarf 23.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Unfortunetly not. It's grants one additional point of cover. But I don't have the models to try it with.

So according ton Frontline, that isn't all it gives. Supposidly, it also gives counter attack and fearless. That, coupled with a priest, is a nasty beatstick.

It may I haven't had my book on me to check it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea they also get counter attack, fear, and fearless.

So played a game of 7th today. 1500 points of mechanized IG goodness vs a 1500 point Farsight bomb.

I learned a few interesting things, chief of which is misfortune DESTROYS units. Turns out that, once the farsight bomb has every hit allocated towards it have rending it folds fast (rending lasguns are silly). I also learned how important carapace armor is. Having BS4 vets shrugging of small arms fire to deliver accurate and needed firepower helped me to turn back several tau units that got too close.

I ended up losing 10/9 on tactical objectives (if the game had ended turn 5 I won, but I lost my momentum). I will be experimenting with manticores in my next game, but I am still finding IG to be a very enjoyable army to play with.

 tankboy145 wrote:
It may I haven't had my book on me to check it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea they also get counter attack, fear, and fearless.

Dizzam. I would love to give this formation a shot. Mind filling me in on the rest of the details?

 Happygrunt wrote:
So played a game of 7th today. 1500 points of mechanized IG goodness vs a 1500 point Farsight bomb.

I learned a few interesting things, chief of which is misfortune DESTROYS units. Turns out that, once the farsight bomb has every hit allocated towards it have rending it folds fast (rending lasguns are silly). I also learned how important carapace armor is. Having BS4 vets shrugging of small arms fire to deliver accurate and needed firepower helped me to turn back several tau units that got too close.

I ended up losing 10/9 on tactical objectives (if the game had ended turn 5 I won, but I lost my momentum). I will be experimenting with manticores in my next game, but I am still finding IG to be a very enjoyable army to play with.

Sorry to hear about your loss, but you are damn right about misfortune. When I field my psykers I always roll on Divination. Forewarning and Misfortune always help if I can get them and obviously Prescience is great. Also, I fielded a manticore in my match against necrons last week. Was expecting him to bring multiple units of 10-20 warriors and he didn't bring anything of the sort. Was still able to damage some of his vehicles by striping HPs, but it didn't do as much damage as I was hoping. Still... Ordnance D3 at S10 can ruin hordes so I'll be bringing it again despite it's recent lackluster performance.

I've given up on Manticores, 170 is way too expensive for something that a third of the time puts out a garbage amount of firepower and only really justifies its cost if you roll 3 pie plates. I played with Lootas just the other day with my Orks, and for two turns I rolled 1 shot each, which arguably in effect lost me the game as my 200~ unit did jack in the critical turns of the game, and then died to a Wraithknight over several turns.

The fact its BS3 and probably making the most of barrage just hurts it more.

The big killer though is that a full squadron of 3 Wyverns (25 pts more), with more or less triple the survivability and given your luck isn't terrible or you make a mistake, a guaranteed 12 mini-pie plates that have far greater accuracy (TL) and in practice do far, far more damage, only losing out on pitiful last-ditch hull-point shaving and denying FNP. Honestly, though? The Wyverns more than compensate.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I've given up on Manticores, 170 is way too expensive for something that a third of the time puts out a garbage amount of firepower and only really justifies its cost if you roll 3 pie plates. I played with Lootas just the other day with my Orks, and for two turns I rolled 1 shot each, which arguably in effect lost me the game as my 200~ unit did jack in the critical turns of the game, and then died to a Wraithknight over several turns.

The fact its BS3 and probably making the most of barrage just hurts it more.

The big killer though is that a full squadron of 3 Wyverns (25 pts more), with more or less triple the survivability and given your luck isn't terrible or you make a mistake, a guaranteed 12 mini-pie plates that have far greater accuracy (TL) and in practice do far, far more damage, only losing out on pitiful last-ditch hull-point shaving and denying FNP. Honestly, though? The Wyverns more than compensate.

The whole idea of d3 or d6 attacks on weapons is silly. The randomness is in the BS and scatter, having a long range missile that has a piñata of anywhere between 1 and 3 warheads is goofy. Just make it 2 hits.

I think one unit of wyverns and two deathstrikes could be fun

What about the Hellhound, Devil Dog and Bane Wolf? I have yet to field them, but I'm anxious to give them a shot. Especially the Chem cannon wounding on 2+. And adding 12" to the template range with torrent seems promising as well. Thoughts?

 eluxir wrote:
What about the Hellhound, Devil Dog and Bane Wolf? I have yet to field them, but I'm anxious to give them a shot. Especially the Chem cannon wounding on 2+. And adding 12" to the template range with torrent seems promising as well. Thoughts?

I love the devil dog, but it is only good if you are facing some kind of mechanized army. If your opponent dose not have enough tanks for the devil dog to go hunt then it is just wasted points.

Well, the Bane wolf doesn't have torrent, it acts as a standard template weapon (so from the muzle of the Bane wolf's canon), which really negates any adventage his wounds-on-2s-with-AP3 weapon has.

Well with ap 3 units making a partial comeback having a highly mobile threat for guys trying to get into your deployment zone that ignores cover is not bad. Especially now that the vendetta is not demanding the slots like it used to. Have enough chassis on the table and they will probably live for awhile.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I've given up on Manticores, 170 is way too expensive for something that a third of the time puts out a garbage amount of firepower and only really justifies its cost if you roll 3 pie plates. I played with Lootas just the other day with my Orks, and for two turns I rolled 1 shot each, which arguably in effect lost me the game as my 200~ unit did jack in the critical turns of the game, and then died to a Wraithknight over several turns.

The fact its BS3 and probably making the most of barrage just hurts it more.

The big killer though is that a full squadron of 3 Wyverns (25 pts more), with more or less triple the survivability and given your luck isn't terrible or you make a mistake, a guaranteed 12 mini-pie plates that have far greater accuracy (TL) and in practice do far, far more damage, only losing out on pitiful last-ditch hull-point shaving and denying FNP. Honestly, though? The Wyverns more than compensate.

I would love to run a squadron of two wryvens, but my case and my budget don't have room for them.

Apparently the local scene here is terrified of manticores, and I happen to have one sitting around that hasn't seen much use, so I will be running it through its paces in the next couple of weeks.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Well, the Bane wolf doesn't have torrent, it acts as a standard template weapon (so from the muzle of the Bane wolf's canon), which really negates any adventage his wounds-on-2s-with-AP3 weapon has.

I should have specified. When I mentioned the torrent rule I was referring to the inferno cannon. At AP4 I want to field that against crons and test drive the chem cannon on some space marines.

Another question, my next campaign match is against tyranids... What level of AP weapons are going to do the most damage across the board (without needing AP1 or AP2 for cracking vehicles/buildings)?

AP6; most 'nids are 6+, with the warriors being 4+ and the big ones being 3+.

i would go with eradicators, to negate the venomtrope's cover ability, flamers, but do not forget low AP wepaons; if you get rid of the big ones, the small ones loose synapse

Without straight tailoring?

AS per above the best you needa do is 3+

 eluxir wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Well, the Bane wolf doesn't have torrent, it acts as a standard template weapon (so from the muzle of the Bane wolf's canon), which really negates any adventage his wounds-on-2s-with-AP3 weapon has.

I should have specified. When I mentioned the torrent rule I was referring to the inferno cannon. At AP4 I want to field that against crons and test drive the chem cannon on some space marines.

Another question, my next campaign match is against tyranids... What level of AP weapons are going to do the most damage across the board (without needing AP1 or AP2 for cracking vehicles/buildings)?

If you take the chem cannon against a full squad of marines there will be guys living and they will assault back and their krak grenades will destroy your vehicle. I have learned from experience. Most vehicles that require you to get close to work usually have 1 turn to do anything and then are dead. I am not a fan of the hell hound variant now that all the russ variants got cheaper and have much better armor and most armies can't deal with av14 from a distance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 eluxir wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
It may I haven't had my book on me to check it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea they also get counter attack, fear, and fearless.

Dizzam. I would love to give this formation a shot. Mind filling me in on the rest of the details?

 Happygrunt wrote:
So played a game of 7th today. 1500 points of mechanized IG goodness vs a 1500 point Farsight bomb.

I learned a few interesting things, chief of which is misfortune DESTROYS units. Turns out that, once the farsight bomb has every hit allocated towards it have rending it folds fast (rending lasguns are silly). I also learned how important carapace armor is. Having BS4 vets shrugging of small arms fire to deliver accurate and needed firepower helped me to turn back several tau units that got too close.

I ended up losing 10/9 on tactical objectives (if the game had ended turn 5 I won, but I lost my momentum). I will be experimenting with manticores in my next game, but I am still finding IG to be a very enjoyable army to play with.

Sorry to hear about your loss, but you are damn right about misfortune. When I field my psykers I always roll on Divination. Forewarning and Misfortune always help if I can get them and obviously Prescience is great. Also, I fielded a manticore in my match against necrons last week. Was expecting him to bring multiple units of 10-20 warriors and he didn't bring anything of the sort. Was still able to damage some of his vehicles by striping HPs, but it didn't do as much damage as I was hoping. Still... Ordnance D3 at S10 can ruin hordes so I'll be bringing it again despite it's recent lackluster performance.

From what I'm aware the formation requires a platoon command squad and 2 squads of bullygyrns each bullygyrns squad has to have at least 5 models. I don't try the formation because of this as it would be very expensive getting 10 of those guys lol.

I've had a few 7th ed games with my IG, pretty much did all the maelstrom missions. Most of them with my horde IG (100+ infantry, 2 priests, commissar, 1 vendetta, 1 hellhound, 2 sentinels, 4 Russ in 2 squadrons), and they do extremely well, winning 5 games in a row against several different armies. My last game was with my veteran AirCav army against Eldar, in which the IG lost. It seems to me that IG behaves very much the same fundamentally tactically since 3rd ed, only the details of how each unit is used, and how useful each unit is that changes. Still loving 'em. In fact. I'm starting yet another new IG army in a couple of months

Quick question, anyone know if Militarum Tempestus command squads (from their book, not from the IG codex) get access to the AM orders in addition to their Scion orders?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Quick question, anyone know if Militarum Tempestus command squads (from their book, not from the IG codex) get access to the AM orders in addition to their Scion orders?

They do not.

 spunkybass wrote:
My last game was with my veteran AirCav army against Eldar, in which the IG lost.

The dependent clause in that sentence is utterly redundant.

You played against Eldar, ergo, you lost.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Quick question, anyone know if Militarum Tempestus command squads (from their book, not from the IG codex) get access to the AM orders in addition to their Scion orders?

They do not.

Soul crushing.

No 30 twin-linked hot-shot hits for me, I guess.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

No 30 twin-linked hot-shot hits for me, I guess.

Cover ignoring, rending hotshots would have been lovely.

 TheSilo wrote:
The dependent clause in that sentence is utterly redundant.

You played against Eldar, ergo, you lost.

Actually, my horde IG does very well against Eldar. 2 of the 5 wins were against different Eldar armies. The AirCav has always been difficult to use anyways. But I take your point. I've got a couple of Eldar armies too

Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

 Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
AP6; most 'nids are 6+, with the warriors being 4+ and the big ones being 3+.

i would go with eradicators, to negate the venomtrope's cover ability, flamers, but do not forget low AP wepaons; if you get rid of the big ones, the small ones loose synapse

thank you, sir. that helps a lot!

 tankboy145 wrote:
If you take the chem cannon against a full squad of marines there will be guys living and they will assault back and their krak grenades will destroy your vehicle. I have learned from experience. Most vehicles that require you to get close to work usually have 1 turn to do anything and then are dead. I am not a fan of the hell hound variant now that all the russ variants got cheaper and have much better armor and most armies can't deal with av14 from a distance.

good point. my close combat counters are where i need improvement and flamers in my PCS always save the day. figured one of the hellhounds could do the same.

 tankboy145 wrote:
From what I'm aware the formation requires a platoon command squad and 2 squads of bullygyrns each bullygyrns squad has to have at least 5 models. I don't try the formation because of this as it would be very expensive getting 10 of those guys lol.

haha regardless.. i want to run that so bad! just for fun if anything.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Same here, I always go ML/HF; of course, if you're facing shooty armies, then the HB might be the better choice.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Same here, I always go ML/HF; of course, if you're facing shooty armies, then the HB might be the better choice.

why the ML over the HB? My most recent matches have been against necrons so AP4 on the HB & HF have been a no brainer. If I wasn't playin' crons it would be the HF if I thought the unit would end up getting close, but it would still be the HB over the ML for me. At the same range and only one point better in strength, I don't see how the ML would be the one to pick. Am I missing something here?! I could see it against tyranids where most units have a 6+ armor save... Is S6 the main reason for taking the ML over the HB?

 eluxir wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Banelord300 wrote:
Is HF still the way to go chimeras or is HB better now?

I was under the impression that Multi-laser/ Heavy flamer was always the way to go.

Same here, I always go ML/HF; of course, if you're facing shooty armies, then the HB might be the better choice.

why the ML over the HB? My most recent matches have been against necrons so AP4 on the HB & HF have been a no brainer. If I wasn't playin' crons it would be the HF if I thought the unit would end up getting close, but it would still be the HB over the ML for me. At the same range and only one point better in strength, I don't see how the ML would be the one to pick. Am I missing something here?! I could see it against tyranids where most units have a 6+ armor save... Is S6 the main reason for taking the ML over the HB?

The ML is a better choice because you will be wounding most things on a 2+ AND you can go hunt light vehicles as necessary. The ML is more versatile than the HB, and seeing as you are BS3, the chance to wound with your three shots being better is a good trade from AP4. The hull HF is a nice back up weapon and, if you are like me and running a mech list, an excellent "SURPRISE!" when enemy forces get a little too close.

 Happygrunt wrote:
The ML is a better choice because you will be wounding most things on a 2+ AND you can go hunt light vehicles as necessary. The ML is more versatile than the HB, and seeing as you are BS3, the chance to wound with your three shots being better is a good trade from AP4. The hull HF is a nice back up weapon and, if you are like me and running a mech list, an excellent "SURPRISE!" when enemy forces get a little too close.

Totally agreed on the surprise factor of the HF. I don't field a PCS without one and take them on most of my vehicles.

But I see your point on the ML... Wasn't thinking about the full impact of S6 over S5. You've given me some great points to think about so I appreciate the feedback!

Now on to another question: What are your favorite troops/characters/vehicles to field when you are crafting a list for maximum mobility?

Trying to round out my armor list with some long range high strength direct fire. Are Exterminators the way to go?

I've got a Punisher and Executioner in the list so far, a couple of Wyverns to rain down on infantry.

I also have my eye on the Eradicators because that price is hard to beat and more cover ignoring blasts is hard to pass up.

Well its hard to do wrong with a vanquisher.

its still st 8 ap 2 and will punk a terminator or pen a vehicle if it hits.

Add that with a las cannon hull and you should at least hit with one high strength low ap direct hit. for relatively cheap.

I've been coupling Exterminators and Eradicators together along with Eradicators and Punishers, it's comical to see the effects. Cover ignoring large blast makes guys hiding in terrain run, Punisher cannon or Exterminator takes them out in the open.

I've seen a lot less Demolisher spam, given the loss of Lumbering Behemoth, anyone still running them to any successful degree?

I cant justify them at that 170 price alone.

Honestly would rather pay the extra 30 and get a tactical squad and vindicator double caded in.

I use to run them quite a bit in 5th, because why not? But I've found that Eradicators have taken their spot in my lists.

Honestly the Vindi is just as bad, but I see your point.

I've been running eradicators in most of my lists. Adding heavy bolter sponsons with the hull heavy bolter just adds a lot of dakka that put the hurt on infantry. Pop a transport and use the eradicator to clean up the infantry. Even tho it's still ap4 it still does a great job against marines. I think someone did the math and it turns out by points it's better than the battle tank.

Now I've got a question for everyone. I normally take my command vanquisher and add MM sponsons to it to add anti tank or I will even add plasma sponsons so it could damage groups of marines or if no big targets could fire at infantry and do a couple more wounds. Is it worth the points to add MM or PC sponsons? Or do you think it's better to run it with just a lascannon on the hull??? What's your preferences?

That'd depend on the role you look for the tank to fill. Vanquisher + Lascannon at BS4 is a tank-hunter exclusively, and for most armies that means you need 2-3 armored kills to make its points back. Not counting, of course, the mandatory squadmate. Adding sponsons (point values escape me, book is in the car) opens up more targets for the cost, but does it make it easier for the tank to make its value back? Questions you need to consider.

HB sponsons are cheap at 20pts and will make back their cost against infantry without too much trouble. The sticky bit is trying to figure out how often you'll need to do that given your meta. Plus the obvious questions about what else you could be doing with those 20 points. I tend to treat them like wargear and leave them until the list is nearly done to seriously consider.

Also, if things get sticky, I'd probably rather have the MM sponsons on the Commander since its the same cost as HBs.

On a related note, has anyone had any success spamming tank commanders? I managed to shoehorn Pask plus two TCs into 1850, which I think is about the limit unless you go unbound. The list is basically Pask, TC, TC, four other Russes and bubble wrap. The exact variants is still something I'm playing with, but I'd love hear from anyone who's tried this out against semi-serious competition.

I have been running double punisher (w/ heavy bolters all around) with good success, as either a tank commander or heavy support slot.

As far as the Manticore, I will still use them. They do two things. 1. Drop pie plates better than most units and don't require line of sight. Or, 2. Become a priority target for my opponent. Either way they are not the needed to win unit in my list.

Since russes got cheaper the only artillery unit I use from time to time is the wyverns. I think the manticore just got too expensive for me.

I think losing direct fire was the biggest hit for manticores.

Anyone gotten games in with the Deathstrike?


I found it was a great terror weapon in 5th more than anything, now it seems to be doubly so since it's actually somewhat reliable.

Unless I read it wrong you can fire it on a 3+ from Turn 2. It ignores cover on a blast that's now fixed and should put a decent sized whole in a lot of armies.

It's going to be a fire magnet, but it's also barrage, so you can hide it, or just stick it in cover and let it eat a bunch of anti-tank fire, taking pressure off the rest of your army.

 Leth wrote:
I think losing direct fire was the biggest hit for manticores.

Direct fire?

am i missing something?

the Deathstrike might be a lot of fun (just noticed APOC BLAST!) at least for fun casual games. i expect 90% of enemy armies to just invisibile and make me sad pandas.

As for T1, why not just reserve it and walk it on.

Unless I read it wrong you can't move and fire, and you also wouldn't get the bonus chance to fire the gun if you moved the turn before, so that would mean firing T3 on a 4+ (again my book isn't here so I could be wrong).

Oh your right. you no add +1 for each turn you moved and you cannot fire if you did move. :(

So might as well start it on board behind terrain. have a psyker near by with prescience and wreck some ones day T2

Just re-checked, it's +1 for every full game turn that it has not moved. So you get a 3+ on T2.

Doesn't say anything about not shooting, so you park it in the back in some cover then pop smoke T1 for that extra bit of protection.

Really I'd be happy if it ate a bunch of shooting in the first couple of turns while the rest of my army gets into ideal fire positions and on to objectives.

 Desubot wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think losing direct fire was the biggest hit for manticores.

Direct fire?

am i missing something?

the Deathstrike might be a lot of fun (just noticed APOC BLAST!) at least for fun casual games. i expect 90% of enemy armies to just invisibile and make me sad pandas.

As for T1, why not just reserve it and walk it on.

Manticores may only fire indirectly which means that they cant get the bonus for BS and cant fire within their minimum range.

Well besides shooting the minimum range of 24" nothing i see say it may only shoot indirect.

Or is it a FAQ?

Isn't there a vortex warhead you can take on the Deathstrike via Apoc or IA that ignores EW and invulns? Does the whole 'removed from play' thing.

I was a bit confused about the Manticore not being able to direct fire too - I'm pretty sure that's not true, unless I missed something.

Its under the entry for storm eagle rockets, not the manticore entry itself

Storm Eagle Rockets are Barrage, but I can't find anything that says you can't fire them direct. As far as I know, normal Barrage weapons can fire direct AND at targets inside the Minimum range (the Min range is for indirect fire). What am I missing?

P136 of the ebook version:
"Storm eagle rockets cannot fire directly"

Oh crap! I never even thought to look there. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's p62 in the printed codex BTW.

Oh balls. Might not have to bother with them then.

That's an annoying place to put that rule.....

Welp if im fully scattering i guess ima try apoc blast deathstrikes for my troop removal.

How important is anti-air these days?

I'm looking to run about 1500 points

In my heavy slot I currently have 2x Eradicators and 2x Wyverns, I could also throw in a pair of Hydras.

I know they don't get interceptor, but they seem good against most air units, not to mention skimmers.

Also, are people taking Commissars? That new summary execution rule seems a bit troublesome, esp if you're trying to keep units like Las Cannon teams in IPSs in check

 More Dakka wrote:
How important is anti-air these days?

I'm looking to run about 1500 points

In my heavy slot I currently have 2x Eradicators and 2x Wyverns, I could also throw in a pair of Hydras.

I know they don't get interceptor, but they seem good against most air units, not to mention skimmers.

Also, are people taking Commissars? That new summary execution rule seems a bit troublesome, esp if you're trying to keep units like Las Cannon teams in IPSs in check

Depends on your meta, but generally past 1200~ points I always take two Vendettas. That may change if I ever build a squadron of Hydras, though really, the extra AT/Anti-MC of the Vendetta can save games. Its a difficult call.

There's two reasons to take Commissars.

1) In a Conscript blob with a power fist, you can tie up and whittle down MC's. I saw an example of this recently, seemed to work fairly well. The Priest makes the blob better at beating other infantry at melee though.

2) In a platoon blob where you plan to make use of orders but can't afford a better character, as you're getting LD9 instead of 7.

I don't take AA into account when building lists, my preferred way of dealing with air is to destroy it if an opportunity presents itself or to attempt to mitigate its effectiveness.

However as noted above, taking Vendettas is a very safe and efficient choice. There is no flyer in the game that will single-handily throw a wrench in your game-plan, but they are still a popular unit type and can be annoying. Vendettas are nice because you can use them for anti-armor just as well as for air-superiority.

 Mr.Omega wrote:


2) In a platoon blob where you plan to make use of orders but can't afford a better character, as you're getting LD9 instead of 7.

Just to point out a usual infantry squad got a Sarge, meaning it's Ld8 rather than 7. +1 Ld, stuborn, krak and WS4 is still worth it not to mention a better pistol and another possible power weapon

For AA, I used the flakk missiles a couple of times, it's a cheap way to get anti-air; keeping in mind that
1-I already used missile launcher, so it's a +10 pts rather than +25
2-I had them in vet squads, as a single shot better hit the target.

The more I look at it the more appealing a pair of Hydras is for the points. There's a lot of air targets out there, including skimmers. And with a total 8 shots TL it should be able to average a couple of hits on ground targets per-turn if nothing else.

Just considering the proliferation of FMC's and Wave Serpents to name a few.

Pretty sure the Hydra isn't effective against skimmers anymore because of their rules change, might be wrong though.

I've been considering buying a pair and making a nifty little 150 point guaranteed AA unit, but I like the Wyvern too much to justify not building it, heh.

Honestly, if you've got the kit and the points, a Vendetta will probably serve you well, if not better, than a Hydra. Three twin-linked las-cannons have a better chance of wrecking/blowing up/forcing wounds on FMCs anyway.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Pretty sure the Hydra isn't effective against skimmers anymore because of their rules change, might be wrong though.

I've been considering buying a pair and making a nifty little 150 point guaranteed AA unit, but I like the Wyvern too much to justify not building it, heh.

Honestly, if you've got the kit and the points, a Vendetta will probably serve you well, if not better, than a Hydra. Three twin-linked las-cannons have a better chance of wrecking/blowing up/forcing wounds on FMCs anyway.

Hydras still fire normally against skimmers.

An idea like that; instead of using up our own Heavy Support slot instead of Russes or Arty, why not fall back on the Marine's AA weapon? Ally with a marine unit and get a Stalker? same price, but BS4, and you can fire at two target for a price of a lower BS and no twin-link.

What does everyone think of running imperial knights with Am support work well ?

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
An idea like that; instead of using up our own Heavy Support slot instead of Russes or Arty, why not fall back on the Marine's AA weapon? Ally with a marine unit and get a Stalker? same price, but BS4, and you can fire at two target for a price of a lower BS and no twin-link.

Because then you need an HQ and a troop for the marines as well.

Too pricy indeed though you do get access to storm guppys and flying bricks which work well as additional anti air.

Honestly the best non HS anti air unit i can think of would be the totally awesome firestorm rebutt, its two quadlascannons that can get upgraded to BS3 and ammo dump. chuck a unit inside with some heavy weapons and you are set.

Need some input on a 1500 tourney list, tried getting help from the list forum but it's hard to get traction over there.


HQ

Pask Punisher
MM sponsons
Hull LC
Camo netting

LR Executions
Plas Sponsons
Hull LC

Troops

Vet Squad
3x Melta
Chimera

Vet Squad
3x Melta
Chimera

Fast

Vendetta

HS
2x Hydras
2x Wyverns
2x either Vanquisher with LC hull or 2x Eradicator with 2x HB sponsons.

What do you guys think? I can take or leave the Hydras and/or the Vendetta frankly.

Seems relatively solid of a base.

Personally Id get rid of the 2 hydras, pop the camo netting, and the hull Las off the executioner, and 1 melta each off the vet squad for 1 more vendetta edit: since vendettas can do double time as anti tank/elite

as you wont be shooting 3 off the top (IIRC)

Id go with the vanquisher instead of the eradicator as you already have wyverns.

 More Dakka wrote:
Need some input on a 1500 tourney list, tried getting help from the list forum but it's hard to get traction over there.


HQ

Pask Punisher
MM sponsons
Hull LC
Camo netting

LR Executions
Plas Sponsons
Hull LC

Troops

Vet Squad
3x Melta
Chimera

Vet Squad
3x Melta
Chimera

Fast

Vendetta

HS
2x Hydras
2x Wyverns
2x either Vanquisher with LC hull or 2x Eradicator with 2x HB sponsons.

What do you guys think? I can take or leave the Hydras and/or the Vendetta frankly.

I like it, very similar to what I run in one variation or another.

If you're going to go Vendettas, drop the hydras and score a second Vendetta somehow (maybe drop 2 meltas?). For the heavy support, I'd take a mixture of maybe a Vanquisher and an Exterminator or Punisher, good for popping transports and then using the second tank for murdering the occupants.

Either way: What Desubot said

Speaking of fun time vendettas.

I also put up a list that isnt gaining any traction

but i think it be fun think itd be ok?

1500 points IG with MT second cad

CCS with a MoO, OotF in a Chimera with relic plating and SL
2 LV 2 Psykers
Vet squad with an auto cannon
2nd vet squad with demolitions and 3 meltas
a Valkery with LC and MRP

3 Vendettas (two will need to be squadron)

then MT PCS with 4 plasma guns

and 2 Infantry squads with double meltas and double plasmas

Seeing as they have Move through cover, i could grav insert them anywhere T2 without worrying about scatter then obliterate nearly anything i want with PE or Rending orders.

 More Dakka wrote:
Need some input on a 1500 tourney list, tried getting help from the list forum but it's hard to get traction over there.


HQ

Pask Punisher
MM sponsons
Hull LC
Camo netting

LR Executions
Plas Sponsons
Hull LC

Troops

Vet Squad
3x Melta
Chimera

Vet Squad
3x Melta
Chimera

Fast

Vendetta

HS
2x Hydras
2x Wyverns
2x either Vanquisher with LC hull or 2x Eradicator with 2x HB sponsons.

What do you guys think? I can take or leave the Hydras and/or the Vendetta frankly.

Seems pretty solid. Is there a way to squeeze at least 1 Primaris Psyker or Wyrdvane Psyker squad in? With the low model count, squeezing the max performance from every unit is critical, and a Presience (or 2) would be a big bonus - the psykers can also secure objectives in the back field for you. You could drop 1 melta from each vet squad if you plan on keeping them in their chimera.

Prescience would really only benefit the tanks, and with Pask's trait not even by much. AM guns are pretty cheap to the point where you're hard pressed to find a situation where just buying another squad isn't better than a psyker.

 Desubot wrote:
Speaking of fun time vendettas.

I also put up a list that isnt gaining any traction

but i think it be fun think itd be ok?

1500 points IG with MT second cad

CCS with a MoO, OotF in a Chimera with relic plating and SL
2 LV 2 Psykers
Vet squad with an auto cannon
2nd vet squad with demolitions and 3 meltas
a Valkery with LC and MRP

3 Vendettas (two will need to be squadron)

then MT PCS with 4 plasma guns

and 2 Infantry squads with double meltas and double plasmas

Seeing as they have Move through cover, i could grav insert them anywhere T2 without worrying about scatter then obliterate nearly anything i want with PE or Rending orders.

Seems sorta all over the place honestly, are the vets in chimeras? Why the autocannon?