I could also argue that Team America took one guard main and one allied guard.
In addition almost every team has a blob guard on it.
I think guard are very strong and I have done pretty well with them as my allies(dont have enough kriegers to run them as main......yet). However I think that as with everything imperial you need to take advantage of your allies to be a strong competitor.
I am not saying Guard is not popular army. It is very popular. However, it has very bad performance so far and I am really curious how the ETC will turn out. I dont believe Guard is strong. When I go through its codex and then through other codices I am very sceptical about it. I can be wrong, of course, but so far I was quite right in my expectations. We will see. About guard and its allies - i believe its best ally is Inquisition - you take a few henchmen and rhinos and inquisitors for extra WC and spellcasting.
That said, our mediocre elites and fast attack slots are going to be major liabilities in 7th. We don't have the hard punching units to assassinate enemy warlords or blunt an enemy assault. And the 10 rear armor on Leman Russes is a huge liability against assault units, my entire tank commander squad goes up in smoke to krak or melta assaults (bye 300+ points).
Just to point out, we can field stromtroopers now in almost industrial numbers; one slot can be filled by a platoon of ST, so up to 35 for each slot, so 105 bodies in total.
Yes, I realise that cost a pretty coin in terms of points, but still, a bunch of them landing here and there in your opponent's army is a matter of concern.
That said, our mediocre elites and fast attack slots are going to be major liabilities in 7th. We don't have the hard punching units to assassinate enemy warlords or blunt an enemy assault. And the 10 rear armor on Leman Russes is a huge liability against assault units, my entire tank commander squad goes up in smoke to krak or melta assaults (bye 300+ points).
Just to point out, we can field stromtroopers now in almost industrial numbers; one slot can be filled by a platoon of ST, so up to 35 for each slot, so 105 bodies in total.
Yes, I realise that cost a pretty coin in terms of points, but still, a bunch of them landing here and there in your opponent's army is a matter of concern.
True, but that 18" range is a killer for Scions. Volley guns are fantastic, melta and plasma are good too, but for some reason you max at two per unit. And I don't get why Tempestors can't take rifles. It adds up to a lot of dead weight for such relatively pricey models. Scions can go one for one against same priced marines in an 18" firefight, but not at 12" or 24" and Scions fall apart in close combat, unlike MEQs. If every Tempestor had voice of command they'd be good, but as is it's too hard to get orders to your scions, even a Prime can only issue one order. To do real damage you need a CCS and Scion platoon delivered by Valkyrie, and that's just too many points/resources riding on an iffy game plan.
I'm looking through the ETC lists at the moment, unimpressed by most of what I see, a lot of "ooh, shiny! / wow, undercosted, this'll let me win!"
One poor guy is taking a double Executioner + PC sponson squadron without Pask or Kurov's Aquila, which I found pretty hilarious, those tanks are going to kill themselves and lose a load of firepower per turn.
Generally the overwhelming, repetitive trend seems to be make Pask a Punisher and give him a Punisher buddy, giving Pask Multi Meltas too. Honestly, it doesn't do anything for me. Having control of range can win games, and its far, far easier to do with an Executioner's 36'' range. Sure, against MSU you may struggle to score large numbers of hits, but a double tank maxed out squadron can put down about 12 AP2 shots still by that logic a turn, which will still work as a precision scalpel chipping away at key units. Way better than getting close and begging for Pask to rend something, followed by a quick and painful death.
Another trend is Yarrick, plus Priests and Lascannon blobs. Poor mobility and for multiple hundred points all you're getting outside of CQ prowess is effectively 5 BS3 Lascannon shots that at best ignore cover or have tank/monster hunter. I've never understood the HWT spam blob, if I wanted Lascannons I'd take Vendettas.
Really, there's almost no Vendettas from what I can see. Its still one of the best flyers in the game, and the Guard's best all round AT/AMC unit, with the fact it massacres flyers just the cherry on top. But oh no, it went up by 40 points, so it must be useless, right?
There's a lot of Conscript+ Priest blobs, which I can understand.
I don't understand why AM Mech is practically non-existent as a core, massing mobile scoring units with triple specials I feel is still quite viable.
Mr.Omega wrote: I'm looking through the ETC lists at the moment, unimpressed by most of what I see, a lot of "ooh, shiny! / wow, undercosted, this'll let me win!"
One poor guy is taking a double Executioner + PC sponson squadron without Pask or Kurov's Aquila, which I found pretty hilarious, those tanks are going to kill themselves and lose a load of firepower per turn.
5*1/6*1/3= He has about a 27% chance of losing a hull point a turn. I don't think they're going to die as often as you think they are.
Generally the overwhelming, repetitive trend seems to be make Pask a Punisher and give him a Punisher buddy, giving Pask Multi Meltas too. Honestly, it doesn't do anything for me. Having control of range can win games, and its far, far easier to do with an Executioner's 36'' range. Sure, against MSU you may struggle to score large numbers of hits, but a double tank maxed out squadron can put down about 12 AP2 shots still by that logic a turn, which will still work as a precision scalpel chipping away at key units. Way better than getting close and begging for Pask to rend something, followed by a quick and painful death.
You also don't need to worry about them getting hot, and Pask is better for hordes. If you can keep them at 24" range by the time you're don'e shooting, you don't have too much to worry about. Not easy, but doable.
Another trend is Yarrick, plus Priests and Lascannon blobs. Poor mobility and for multiple hundred points all you're getting outside of CQ prowess is effectively 5 BS3 Lascannon shots that at best ignore cover or have tank/monster hunter. I've never understood the HWT spam blob, if I wanted Lascannons I'd take Vendettas.
Yeah, I got nothing here. A powerblob would have made more sense with that loadout with Yarrick and multiple priests.
Really, there's almost no Vendettas from what I can see. Its still one of the best flyers in the game, and the Guard's best all round AT/AMC unit, with the fact it massacres flyers just the cherry on top. But oh no, it went up by 40 points, so it must be useless, right?
How many other flyers did you see? Maybe you're worrying about something that's not in that meta to begin with?
There's a lot of Conscript+ Priest blobs, which I can understand.
I don't understand why AM Mech is practically non-existent as a core, massing mobile scoring units with triple specials I feel is still quite viable.
Honestly, I've found that my hybrid list is doing the best out of anything I've tried so far. Never thought I'd see the day I said that.
I think its worth thinking about using the steel host instead of pask for delicious P.E (and i dont believe you are stuck with only 1 codex). just make the host tankmander a executioner with his buddy to avoid the range problem. but you have to take 3 more tanks and a hydra :/
Its 5 lascannons that can ignore cover in a game where you have annoying 2+ jink saving daemon princes on the ground, or 3-4++ tricky eldar skimmers. I think it has merit but i prefer not to use yarrick.
im finding vendettas hard to fit into lists because of the price, and besides for an occasional flyer or vehicle, hasn't really blown anything up with the new V damage chart. they have done better going into hover mode to last second capture objectives. its easier to just use those points and get more men on the ground it feels.
I dont know about the rest of the world, but Mechvets just feel weaker considering almost everything can jinx in a dumb way and when they do it doesn't matter as they walk up and punch you to death immediately after. at least thats been my experience.
Desubot wrote: I think its worth thinking about using the steel host instead of pask for delicious P.E (and i dont believe you are stuck with only 1 codex). just make the host tankmander a executioner with his buddy to avoid the range problem. but you have to take 3 more tanks and a hydra :/
Its 5 lascannons that can ignore cover in a game where you have annoying 2+ jink saving daemon princes on the ground, or 3-4++ tricky eldar skimmers. I think it has merit but i prefer not to use yarrick.
Wait, what's this about lascannons that can ignore cover?
Tank hunter and/or ignore cover is no joke against a lot of the heavy hitters out there. It is also a OS unit with a huge footprint. I managed to get one squad into combat with three different units while contesting two objectives and claiming one.
Leth wrote: Tank hunter and/or ignore cover is no joke against a lot of the heavy hitters out there. It is also a OS unit with a huge footprint. I managed to get one squad into combat with three different units while contesting two objectives and claiming one.
How can you get tank hunter AND ignores cover on one squad??? How did you manage to get to three victory points with shooty blob? Did you not shot and go forwards or what?
Leth wrote: Tank hunter and/or ignore cover is no joke against a lot of the heavy hitters out there. It is also a OS unit with a huge footprint. I managed to get one squad into combat with three different units while contesting two objectives and claiming one.
How can you get tank hunter AND ignores cover on one squad??? How did you manage to get to three victory points with shooty blob? Did you not shot and go forwards or what?
Usually its an either/or on those. However sometimes I get a psyker with perfect timing so I get both.
One thing people have to learn about blobs is that it is perfectly fine to advance with them. Also with the large size it is easy to move the lasgun guys and keep the lascannons sitting still. I got a triple charge off locking three units in combat. Then I had to spread out and maintain coherency in the process.
By careful moving of my models I made it so that to maintain coherency the models on the objective I needed to claim could not move. Forming a sort of reverse L shape. Melta bombs killed his wraith knight and the rest of the blob killed his two dire avengers squads. I have no problem going for the charge instead of shooting for that turn, especially if it gives me some extra movement. If there was a reliable way to get endurance on biomancy I would be rolling that everytime.
Usually its an either/or on those. However sometimes I get a psyker with perfect timing so I get both.
One thing people have to learn about blobs is that it is perfectly fine to advance with them. Also with the large size it is easy to move the lasgun guys and keep the lascannons sitting still. I got a triple charge off locking three units in combat. Then I had to spread out and maintain coherency in the process.
By careful moving of my models I made it so that to maintain coherency the models on the objective I needed to claim could not move. Forming a sort of reverse L shape. Melta bombs killed his wraith knight and the rest of the blob killed his two dire avengers squads. I have no problem going for the charge instead of shooting for that turn, especially if it gives me some extra movement. If there was a reliable way to get endurance on biomancy I would be rolling that everytime.
I understand - with perfect timing it is indeed possible.
Advance with blobs is not an option for me, because my blob sits behind Aegis Line - get through that line with blob is something nigh impossible (it would simply take too long to even matter). Whats more important to me is I dont want to do that, because i would lose that 4+ cover save and then the blob itself.
I played conscript blobs a couple of times. I tried to use them for objective grab, so they were not behind aegis. Well, they were quickly obliterated by enemy anti-infantry fire (they did not even managed to get to the centre of the board...) . I do not want to have my units before aegis...
You charged two units of avengers and a wraith knight? Your opponents fault then. He must have been too close to you. My opponent has made this mistake only once...then he learnt its not a good thing to come close to a blob.
He charged a blob with one wraith knight, I killed it, then got a 6 inch consolidate which I used to slingshot out then used my turn to get within range of all three.
Leth wrote: He charged a blob with one wraith knight, I killed it, then got a 6 inch consolidate which I used to slingshot out then used my turn to get within range of all three.
That was a very good play with the wraithknight! I myself run a Hybrid list the the blob as my home field objective campers and two units of mech vets as my objective grabbers, usually supported by hellhounds to blow the enemy units off the objectives. It works out pretty well, I find that guard is about finding the balance between mech, blob, and armored with maelstrom missions.
Guard has faster options but I don't see them used much and they aren't troops so no objective secured. Right now I'm working on a list with scions in taurox primes supported by hellhounds. Probably not the best, but I think it will surprise some folks to see a speedy guard list.
For heavy weapons, do you guys generally prefer Autocannons or Lascannons?
I think the guard's poor showing at the BAO is mainly because of two things: lack of mobility combined with Mealstrom missions, and the load of SM players. Drop pod lists can be pretty brutal if you don't manage bubblewrapping the rear of your tanks..
konst80hummel wrote: Err... sorry, quick question here: what exactly is this steel host and where are it's rules?
It's in the first Sanctus reach campaign book. It's a guard formation that composes of a tank commander, 3 russ squadrons, and a hydra. So at minimum the formation needs 5 russes and a hydra. Then the special ability it grants is that any friendly vehicle in the formation within 12" of the tank commander gets preferred enemy making russes extremely useful and really deadly as most only need 2's to wound so rerolling failed 1's pretty much means you will wound "almost" everything you fire at.
Leth wrote: He charged a blob with one wraith knight, I killed it, then got a 6 inch consolidate which I used to slingshot out then used my turn to get within range of all three.
I would like to trade my opponent for yours
He had to otherwise my blob was going to shoot dead one wraith knight and then possibly get the other one the next turn. He cost me a turn of shooting by locking them, however he didnt expect his wraith knight to survive two of his shooting phases(so three rounds of combat total). Which allowed me to pop out 6 and then it was my turn.
Leth wrote: He charged a blob with one wraith knight, I killed it, then got a 6 inch consolidate which I used to slingshot out then used my turn to get within range of all three.
Leth wrote: He charged a blob with one wraith knight, I killed it, then got a 6 inch consolidate which I used to slingshot out then used my turn to get within range of all three.
Also space wolves are the AMs new best friend.
Holy crap.
Details man details what are the combos?
First combo that comes to mind is ulrik. He grants himself and any space wolf within 6 preferred enemy.
So now one blob can have ulrik, another has another space wolf character(think iron priest, potentially on thunderwolf for some sweet sweet counter assault) and if he is within 6 the blob will benefit from preferred enemy.
Drop pod for any guard unit to come in first turn with safe deep strike(thinking demolitions vets with 3 meltas)
Or blender CC characters on thunderwolves(if you dont want ulrik)
How are people feeling about bullgryn? Much as I don't want to, I find myself kind of liking them on paper. They're not impressive against marines on the assault, but I see them playing the defensive game more than anything else.
Now that the space wolves are out I'm going to have to look into what good allies combos work with them. Used to run them as allies and now I'm gunna have to see how they do. I hear they are really good.
Me to, but since we did not see any article of that kind to this day, we will probably not see it at all.
One of the things which has been mentioned is that guard is too slow - BAO used combined eternal war with maelstrom of war missions and a lot of those missions require mobility and MSU. Guard is anything but mobile....
Agreed... And that has been a reoccurring problem for me when playing those missions. I love playing the tactical objectives but the randomness can be frustrating if the cards don't fall in your favor.
That being said, I'd like to start building lists with more mobility. Vets in a chimera has worked well, but I'm considering running Scions in a Taurox Prime to see how that Fast transport plays. Also going to start running valkyries/vendettas with scions and give grav chute insertion a go. Any other suggestions?
daedalus wrote: That's the one that means you have to take 2x5 of them?
I have mixed feelings about that many of them.
Yea but they gain counter attack, furious charge, and fear, which actually makes them way better in CC.
Really, ogryns would be better if you could take more of them as bodyguards for your characters. It'd be awesome to have one in your PCS and CCS, throw one in to protect a Primaris or a Priest.
daedalus wrote: That's the one that means you have to take 2x5 of them?
I have mixed feelings about that many of them.
Yea but they gain counter attack, furious charge, and fear, which actually makes them way better in CC.
Really, ogryns would be better if you could take more of them as bodyguards for your characters. It'd be awesome to have one in your PCS and CCS, throw one in to protect a Primaris or a Priest.
I want to try out that formation so bad. My bullgryns/ogryns always hold their own. I like to field them as defensive, CC counters. Do you like playing Nork Deddog?
Also, I'm going to play my first game of kill team tomorrow. Any suggestions or tips from the group? Thinking about running sentinels or some sort of vet / chimera loadout but need to re-read the kill team rules.
Not sure on GK since they are going to lose INQ in a week or two.
I would be looking at wolves since they have a lot of things that buff guard blobs leadershipwise(ATSKNF). Also I think sisters would offer a lot, especially if going for blobs
I think drop podding space marines would be pretty hot for guard, as it gives you a lot of mobility and combat squad MSU for objectives.
1 Drop pod with a 10 man tactical/GH squad split into 2 combat squads is 3 units when they deploy that all have OS.
I think scions could also work well as allies, since you can DS them in onto objectives, or use fast transports and they get OS as they will be troops. They just aren't as durable as space marines for about the same points. with the T4/3+ and ATSKNF and drop pods are pretty cheap and don't have to worry about mishaps most of the time.
I thought Scions were much cheaper than Marines. Especially given that they have AP3 weapons, can take 2 specials, and have MTC for auto-passing those terrain tests that they would make cheaper and much more effective allies for guard for the purpose of mobility and OS. Also take into account orders from the Scion command squad.
Though I guess if your scatter die is screwing you over so often that you think buying pods is a must, maybe you ought to get a decent scatter die.
the base squad of 5 costs as much as 5 tac marines. It's true they do get ap3 weapons, but they are str 3.
The odds of 5 scions dropping 5 tacticals
10 shots, 7 hits, 2-3 wounds, no armor saves.
The odds of 5 tacticals dropping 5 scions
10 shots 7 hits 5 wounds, 2-3 unsaved.
they are about the same. Of course if the marines are in cover things change, and MTC is very nice to have. Also upgrades change things, to add more tacticals costs more than to add more scions, scions pay a premium upfront because their squad leader has better stats(+1 A and +1 LD over normal scion) and space marine default sgt stats are the same as normal tac marine.
The drop pod is not just useful for greatly reducing the chance to mishap, but its also OS with av 12, so your opponent has to dedicate fire to it, or your contesting/getting an objective with it if its near one every turn for 35pts.
I'd just like to throw an anecdotal story in here.
Ran kinda fluffy IG and got stomped repeatedly.
Bought some vanilla Space Marines. 2 tactical squads, 3 rhinos, 2 land speeders, 5 scouts and a 10 man assault squad.
Played against Necrons (1500 points - 750 IG and 750 SM)
- Tactical marines held objectives that were up close (utilizing their 3+ AS)
- Assault Marines held up the warlord unit, preventing them from advancing or shooting for 3 turns.
- Scouts held rear objectives while picking off Necron warriors
- Land Speeders used meltas and threatened them with objectives (like the within 12" of the back edge one which forced him to waste 25 Necron warrior shots on the LS)
- IG was able to move much more freely because the Necron player saw them as secondary threats.
- Veteran demolitions squad actually survived the whole game because Necrons were too busy trying to kill the SM units
- ATSKNF is amazing and prevents the domino fleeing/dying effect that you get with guardsmen
You could be running a mech list which really has no use for a ccs and a tank commander is much better.
Also I hear everyone talking about blob guard. But from what I've heard blob guard is pretty bad. As a lot of the top armies are winning because they have fast units that can get across the board rather easily.
tankboy145 wrote: You could be running a mech list which really has no use for a ccs and a tank commander is much better.
Also I hear everyone talking about blob guard. But from what I've heard blob guard is pretty bad. As a lot of the top armies are winning because they have fast units that can get across the board rather easily.
Yea I don't quite get it. Seems like blob would be good in 6th edition missions, not so good in 7th. They're also rather tedious to play with.
I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)
Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.
Leth wrote: I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)
Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.
Yea, but they can charge you and prevent your entire blob from firing.
Leth wrote: I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)
Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.
Yea, but they can charge you and prevent your entire blob from firing.
Which is fine, my blobs tend to kill whatever charges them.
As I said earlier I killed two wraith knights and two units of dire avengers.
Also killed three lords on CCBs over the course of 1 game.
Dont be afraid to charge with your blobs, with 1-2 characters and taking advantage of their mobility and you can cover a large part of the board.
Leth wrote: I run one blob and it does very VERY well. With lascannons and Yarrick it doesnt go anywhere and I can ignore cover or tank hunter most of the targets pretty reliably getting a bunch of wounds on a target. Once I get more krieg models I an going to probably run two units of 4 as allies.(Naturally I have someone to cast prescience on them)
Mobility is one thing, but board presence is a completely different animal. You cant move to where they already are.
I played against eldar couple of days ago. One conscript blob with coteaz, one shooty blob with tigurius(for prescience) behind aegis, one vendetta with flamer platoon command (1250 points). I did not manage to remove a single wound or hull point. Blob is not mobile, my enemy was. He was hiding behind LOS blocks with tanks (3 serpents, 2 hornets) and shooting at everything he saw from his point ( at vendetta, conscripts and my space marine unit) besides the shooty blob. He was waiting behind that block to the end of the 5th round, then flat-outing to the objectives. Meanwhile, his warp spiders were hiding behind ruins and waiting for scoring linebraker later. In 5th turn, everything besides shooty blob has been already killed/destroyed. I was sitting on 1 objective, he had 3 objectives, first blod, linebraker.
GG for me - all thanks to the lack of mobility. I had no way to put my shooty blob to use and no way to get to the points (only vendetta and conscripts, which were - as expected - quickly obliterated by massive eldar firepower). So, yes, mobility is VERY important.
Well I never said that blobs were all you had. I just said that 1-2 blobs is not bad. What senior orders were you using that you didnt get a hull point as well as what heavy weapons?
My IG detachment is about 900 points with two blobs, that leaves about 950 points for other stuff.
Also no offense but your friend brought a dick list for 1250 points and you were not optimized at all.
Its why i run divination over going for invisible 90% of games.
And i forgot that I had it too!!! but I always go div because it has the most powers that benefit guard blobs. Ignore cover, 4+ invul, full BS overwatch, rending. Only ones I dont like are scryers and precog, but even then they have their uses.
I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.
I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.
The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.
GrafWattenburg wrote: I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.
I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.
The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.
Unless you run many psykers it will ALWAYS be better to bring more bodies/guns. Because the fact that the other player can deny you and more guns is better than a few twinlinked there may end up being games where you waste the primaris psyker because he gets denied all the time.
So I've looked into running a space wolves detachment. It will consist of 2 full squads of grey hunters, one will have 2 plasma and the other will have 2 melta. Both units will be in pods and will have the ccw added to them all. There will then be a third pod with 5-7 wolf guard with combi plasmas and a wolf priest. The wolf priest grants preferred enemy so the plasmas really won't be over heating when they come down. Now what Im trying to think of is will this detachment work better with a mech/armor list or more Gunline based list? The detachment run around 700 points.
GrafWattenburg wrote: I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.
I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.
The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.
Unless you run many psykers it will ALWAYS be better to bring more bodies/guns. Because the fact that the other player can deny you and more guns is better than a few twinlinked there may end up being games where you waste the primaris psyker because he gets denied all the time.
So I've looked into running a space wolves detachment. It will consist of 2 full squads of grey hunters, one will have 2 plasma and the other will have 2 melta. Both units will be in pods and will have the ccw added to them all. There will then be a third pod with 5-7 wolf guard with combi plasmas and a wolf priest. The wolf priest grants preferred enemy so the plasmas really won't be over heating when they come down. Now what Im trying to think of is will this detachment work better with a mech/armor list or more Gunline based list? The detachment run around 700 points.
To be fair
the only way to match prescienced dakka is to literally double your entire army (or unit that you need prescience) which is kinda impractical.
I reaaaaaaaallly dont want to spend the chasola for SW codex but being able to drop down demo charge SWT sounds soooo fun.
Leth wrote: What senior orders were you using that you didnt get a hull point as well as what heavy weapons?
I did not get to use orders during the game. Only at the end of the game, when serpents went to objectives, I had first chance to fire - to that time, they were all hiding from the blob, like I have already said. However, a single shooting attack is not enough to knock out wave serpent...or three serpents with two hornets and three units of infantry like in this situation...
I usually use no cover order. My blob is equiped with LCs. I prefer them before ACs, because LCs can hurt AV14.
The Guard blob has a lot of firepower with Prescience combined with orders. But the lack of blob mobility means you are often denied to use that firepower, if your enemy is mobile.
btw. I dont understand why do you say I was not "optimized at all". What do you mean?
Leth wrote: What senior orders were you using that you didnt get a hull point as well as what heavy weapons?
I did not get to use orders during the game. Only at the end of the game, when serpents went to objectives, I had first chance to fire - to that time, they were all hiding from the blob, like I have already said. However, a single shooting attack is not enough to knock out wave serpent...or three serpents with two hornets and three units of infantry like in this situation...
I usually use no cover order. My blob is equiped with LCs. I prefer them before ACs, because LCs can hurt AV14.
The Guard blob has a lot of firepower with Prescience combined with orders. But the lack of blob mobility means you are often denied to use that firepower, if your enemy is mobile.
btw. I dont understand why do you say I was not "optimized at all". What do you mean?
Well basically your opponent abused the fact that at small point sizes most armies are not going to be able to compete with wave serpents in addition took one of the most powerful forgeworld units on top of it to a 1250 game. I dont think there is an IG build that is not specifically tailored towards that list that can deal with it reasonably well.
Basically brought a gun to a dogfight(planes, not Vick). You brought the rock, he brought the paper.
GrafWattenburg wrote: I ran Coteaz as an ally today in a game against GK, and he didn't really do anything - I got Scryer's Gaze and the 4+ invul power (and prescience primaris), but everything I threw was dispelled by a ton of dice.
I'm replacing him with more infantrymen and giving my sergeants power axes in case my blob ends up in combat.
The lack of mobility can be hard to deal with, but few people near me play Maelstrom missions. If they did, I'd run more veterans in Chimeras/Tauroxes.
Unless you run many psykers it will ALWAYS be better to bring more bodies/guns. Because the fact that the other player can deny you and more guns is better than a few twinlinked there may end up being games where you waste the primaris psyker because he gets denied all the time.
So I've looked into running a space wolves detachment. It will consist of 2 full squads of grey hunters, one will have 2 plasma and the other will have 2 melta. Both units will be in pods and will have the ccw added to them all. There will then be a third pod with 5-7 wolf guard with combi plasmas and a wolf priest. The wolf priest grants preferred enemy so the plasmas really won't be over heating when they come down. Now what Im trying to think of is will this detachment work better with a mech/armor list or more Gunline based list? The detachment run around 700 points.
To be fair
the only way to match prescienced dakka is to literally double your entire army (or unit that you need prescience) which is kinda impractical.
I reaaaaaaaallly dont want to spend the chasola for SW codex but being able to drop down demo charge SWT sounds soooo fun.
Not entirely, because for one you can fail your psychic test and get no power off and you can also be denied and get no power off and in that case you will have less guns firing with no bonus. Where the guard army that has more guns will out shoot them. Im not sure if youve been following this thread from the beginning or read all the pages but there was a discussion about this where obsidiankatana did the math to how much more a presciences blob really benefits from the twinlinking rather than a guard army that has more guns. A blob doesnt get significantly better until it reaches above 30models. So if the blob is 40-50 then sure prescience will significantly make a difference but 30 and below does add much that more guns cant already add to it.
Me to, but since we did not see any article of that kind to this day, we will probably not see it at all.
One of the things which has been mentioned is that guard is too slow - BAO used combined eternal war with maelstrom of war missions and a lot of those missions require mobility and MSU. Guard is anything but mobile....
Agreed... And that has been a reoccurring problem for me when playing those missions. I love playing the tactical objectives but the randomness can be frustrating if the cards don't fall in your favor.
That being said, I'd like to start building lists with more mobility. Vets in a chimera has worked well, but I'm considering running Scions in a Taurox Prime to see how that Fast transport plays. Also going to start running valkyries/vendettas with scions and give grav chute insertion a go. Any other suggestions?
The vendettas and valk ideas arent bad for the scions but the taurox really isnt that great. It can give some fire power but its really only got a turn of showing itself before its probably going to die.
Av11 is significantly different to av12 as more weapons can destroy 11 than 12.
I personally believe the chimera or standard taurox are better choices. The standard taurox is cheap and allows you to go over terrain quickly with its tracks but the standard taurox really isnt a gun box like the chimera is. so if you just want a cheap transport to drop troops off then the taurox seeems to be the answer but the chimera also does this better as it can drop the troops off and then provide moderate covver fire.
I've just started playing IG at the dawn of 7th after over 20 years or playing marines and I have about 4 games with them under my belt. My list is 4/4 in wiping the opponent's army off the table by turn 4. Caveat: not in a competitive/tournament scene but it wasn't like we weren't following the rules or anything. My opponents did not take flyers.
It's a perfect storm of alpha strike capability, volume of fire, and target saturation.
1500pts
Punisher/HB Pask w/ a Vanquisher/las buddy
Primaris Psyker (mastery 2) going Divination
Grenadier vets in chimera (ML and HF) w/ heavy flamer and 2 flamers
Grenadier vets in chimera (ML and HF) w/ meltas
20 man blob with grenade launchers
Platoon command w/ plasma gun and autocannon
2x Wyverns
Knight ally
Voxes all around.
I don't reserve anything. Pask and the wyverns are generally the MVPs. But a volley of 50 or so rending and/or cover-ignoring lasgun shots ain't no slouch.
I didn't try to make a hard list it's all stuff I thought would look cool on the table and I thought would be fun to paint (it does and it was).
Snapshot wrote: Looks like a lot of killing power. How does it go with capturing objectives in Maelstrom missions (I'm thinking about mobility)?
By wiping the opponent off the table
I feel live come to the conclusion that it might be better to just focus on killing all the things rather than going for objectives unless very early on you get rolling lucky.
I've been hearing so much of pask in a punisher with lascannon and multi meltas. I see he can basically cover all fields as he can damage tank monstrous creatures, infantry and elite infantry.
But now compared to pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and multi melta or plasma sponsons. What seems to be the better tank when it comes to anti tank. I know a vanquisher lacks anti infantry fire power and by adding plasma sponsons you can usually kill 3-4 extra marines ontop of the vanq cannon and lascannon.
I just have usually preferred a tank commander or pask in a vanq as the bs 4 improves the guns chances to hit especially with bs4. It seems like solid long range anti tank.
I've just been struggling with finding long range anti tank with guard and the vendetta still seems like the best option without risking your forces with getting to close.
There's no doubt that Pask in a vanq is excellent with the long range. I flip-flop whether to go vanq and play him mid- to long-range, or go for Paskling cannon and toss him into the frey with some squadies and troops to protect him as well as possible. I think opponents are definitely more scared of Paskling because of the number of dice he throws and the fact that he can make a mess of most targets. First time you get him to shoot a LR they laugh, and then they work out what all those re-rolls and Rending mean
tankboy145 wrote: I've been hearing so much of pask in a punisher with lascannon and multi meltas. I see he can basically cover all fields as he can damage tank monstrous creatures, infantry and elite infantry.
But now compared to pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon and multi melta or plasma sponsons. What seems to be the better tank when it comes to anti tank. I know a vanquisher lacks anti infantry fire power and by adding plasma sponsons you can usually kill 3-4 extra marines ontop of the vanq cannon and lascannon.
I just have usually preferred a tank commander or pask in a vanq as the bs 4 improves the guns chances to hit especially with bs4. It seems like solid long range anti tank.
I've just been struggling with finding long range anti tank with guard and the vendetta still seems like the best option without risking your forces with getting to close.
Pask in a Punisher (PnP) with sponsons/las will mathematically trump a Vanquisher with similar upgrades in every contest.
The one advantage a Vanquisher has is the range of its cannon. With the Punisher, you'll have to wait at least a turn before getting into range to shoot most things, whereas the Vanquisher can fire off shots from the get-go.
The problem is that 7th edition is a meta where stripping hull-points is more efficient than high burst-damage. A Pask-Vanquisher is knocking an average of ~.80 hullpoints off of a vehicle and a 38% chance of blowing it up per turn of shooting without using sponsons, and that's against an AV10 open-topped vehicle, the best possible target for a Vanquisher. The math only gets less flattering from there, ending with a dismal .5 hullpoints against a Land Raider and a 15% chance to blow it up. And none of that is factoring in cover saves.
The math goes up with sponsons, like a multi-melta, but with a 24'' range on those sponsons you're basically ignoring the advantage of your Vanquisher cannon. At that range you'd just be better off with a punisher.
So I want to do an Armoured Company utilising the Steel Host Formation from the Sanctus Reach supplement. This is the list that I have come up with so far:
IGCAD: Pask - Punisher with Lascannon and MM Sponsons (240)
LR Executioner - Lascannon, PC Sponsons (195)
Steel Host: Tank Commander - Vanquisher with Lascannon and MM Sponsons (195)
LR Vanquisher - Lascannon, MM Sponsons (165)
LR Vanquisher - LC, MM Sponsons (165)
LR Vanquisher - LC, MM Sponsons (165)
LR Eradicator - HB, HB Sponsons (140)
Hydra Battery x2 (140)
Total: 1985
Is there anything hugely wrong with this? Does anyone have much experience using a LR heavy list and/or the Steel Host? I considered Plasma for the Vets so they can shoot out of the hatch while they camp objectives, but figured they would need to help with thinning down hordes. I know the Vanq isn't the most efficient tank in the list, especially at BS3, but with PE from the formation, I love the idea of a battery of them sitting back and blasting stuff. I also have a fondness for the Hydra, even though an Aegis may be a better option.
This list is meant to be more thematic than competitive, but I want it to be able to win every now and then. To expand, I want to look into getting one of the super heavy tanks, most likely the Macharius Vanquisher (http://www.forgeworl...VANQUISHER.html) because it's just so darned beautiful. I also want to add a Knight or two at some point, with my ultimate goal being to include either a Warhound or Reaver (or both if I win the Lotto).
So I want to do an Armoured Company utilising the Steel Host Formation from the Sanctus Reach supplement. This is the list that I have come up with so far:
IGCAD: Pask - Punisher with Lascannon and MM Sponsons (240)
LR Executioner - Lascannon, PC Sponsons (195)
Steel Host: Tank Commander - Vanquisher with Lascannon and MM Sponsons (195)
LR Vanquisher - Lascannon, MM Sponsons (165)
LR Vanquisher - LC, MM Sponsons (165)
LR Vanquisher - LC, MM Sponsons (165)
LR Eradicator - HB, HB Sponsons (140)
Hydra Battery x2 (140)
Total: 1985
Is there anything hugely wrong with this? Does anyone have much experience using a LR heavy list and/or the Steel Host? I considered Plasma for the Vets so they can shoot out of the hatch while they camp objectives, but figured they would need to help with thinning down hordes. I know the Vanq isn't the most efficient tank in the list, especially at BS3, but with PE from the formation, I love the idea of a battery of them sitting back and blasting stuff. I also have a fondness for the Hydra, even though an Aegis may be a better option.
This list is meant to be more thematic than competitive, but I want it to be able to win every now and then. To expand, I want to look into getting one of the super heavy tanks, most likely the Macharius Vanquisher (http://www.forgeworl...VANQUISHER.html) because it's just so darned beautiful. I also want to add a Knight or two at some point, with my ultimate goal being to include either a Warhound or Reaver (or both if I win the Lotto).
Thanks.
Certainly doesn't look bad, 4 vanquishers may be over kill to an extent. Also for the formation it lists hydra. Not hydra battery or hydra squadron like it does for "leman russ squad". I may be wrong as I don't have my book to check but the wording seems to only allow one hydra in the formation.
Cool. Could drop one Hydra and a Vanquisher and include an Exterminator instead to help with AA duties. What's the common loadout for an Exterminator these days? LC and no sponsons?
That would be if you are tight on points but if you want to go after infantry include heavy bolter sponsons. But I would give the exterminator multi melta sponsons.
So now that assassins are out will any of you being running them in your lists? I know that I will be running a vindicare for sniping out problem models so my tanks can mop up.
Just came up with a Steel host "loadout" id like to run through you guys.
-Tank Commander
-Vanquisher
-Lascannon
-Camo nets
-Vanquisher #2 to go with the commander
-Camo nets
-Hydra
-Exterminator squadron with two exterminators
-Heavy bolters
-Leman russ Demolisher
-multi melta's
-Leman russ Vanquisher
-lascannon
-camo nets
With the general plan being that the 3 Vanquishers go after the big targets, and the Exterminator buddy pair takes out a large portion of a squad per turn.
I'd probably run this formation in a 3K list with Pask in a punisher with executioner buddy. That way Pask and his squadron can team up with the Steel host Demolisher and advance to get in range, supported by veterans in chimeras.
What do you guys think? viable build or ineffective loadout?
To be honest an executioner is almost mandatory to take as the tank commanders additional tank. Just because the preferred enemy really stands out although you could put him anywhere in the formation and just keep an executioner within 12".
Scratchy wrote: Im running an Executioner with my Pask in the above list. But the steel host commander could use one as well. 3 vanquishers might be overkill anyway.
I would make sure pask is in a vanquisher or a punisher those are his best tanks to be in, executioner is really good as his partner.
I would make sure pask is in a vanquisher or a punisher those are his best tanks to be in, executioner is really good as his partner.
Pask is in a Punisher, its his mandatory partner tank that is in an Executioner. I've altered the list so that both Pask and the Steel Host commander are now teamed up with an Executioner partner
I would make sure pask is in a vanquisher or a punisher those are his best tanks to be in, executioner is really good as his partner.
Pask is in a Punisher, its his mandatory partner tank that is in an Executioner. I've altered the list so that both Pask and the Steel Host commander are now teamed up with an Executioner partner
That's much better. Also with the orders you will be able to split fire and hopefully kill off multiple units between those 4 tanks.
One of the member's of Team Poland who I believe recently won the ETC ran punisher Pask with 2 other punishers with the same loadout (multimelta, lascanon). While they s a lot don't get rending like pask, that's a lot of volume of fire that may trump considering the executioner as a preferred partner. Also think about the prevalence of skimmers, punishers are a lot more usefully in bringing those down than say executioners.
My question though, has anyone tried allied Dark Angels for a power field generator. Was thinking it may be useful for protecting tank formations or better yet embark him on a super heavy like the stormlord.
Once again the mission structure and terrain at NOVA is not conductive to the guard play style. Guard are good just has an issue with the mission structure
Leth wrote: Once again the mission structure and terrain at NOVA is not conductive to the guard play style. Guard are good just has an issue with the mission structure
Are you saying that the mission structure and terrain is the cause of guard defead at every big tournament in 7th edition? Check out the "Torrent of fire" stats from the start of 7th, IG is among the worst armies (win percentage). I dont believe its only because of tournaments special rules...do you?
The the king of 7th is mobility, which sadly the guard just don't have too much off, tanks and guard blobs are too slow compared to bikes and skimmers which are very prevalent now. And while we can take ample amounts of troops, they just aren't that great. Especially now that there's so many large blast templates that ignore cover are in the game now.
Spartan089 wrote: The the king of 7th is mobility, which sadly the guard just don't have too much off, tanks and guard blobs are too slow compared to bikes and skimmers which are very prevalent now. And while we can take ample amounts of troops, they just aren't that great. Especially now that there's so many large blast templates that ignore cover are in the game now.
This!
In adition - IG does not have a unit with high "damage output/point cost" ratio (like Eldar, SM, IK, Tau). IG is also not a codex with great psychic abilities (like daemons).
The advantage of Imperial Guard is endurance/point cost ratio. But that is no good for winning a game, especially when your units are not mobile and/or have a good fire concentration (the blob is quite large and can not fire and move as well as smaller units)
There have been two major GTs so far, I think IG would work better as allies personally but we will see.
The problem is that the current top army which is eldar and to a lesser extent tau have so much high strength ignore cover that negates the primary advantages of the IG
Acording to the results of those tournaments, not only Eldar and Tau, but also Space Marines (Bay Area winner), Daemons and Necrons have good results so far.
Lothar wrote: Acording to the results of those tournaments, not only Eldar and Tau, but also Space Marines (Bay Area winner), Daemons and Necrons have good results so far.
My point is that a combination of the new missions structure combined with the strongest armies also ignoring a lot of their strengths.
It seems that way, I really wish they would have gotten some sort of monsterous creature type unit or even a better new transport since the Taurox sucks. Also a few units are still over costed.
I am thinking of putting a Culexus in a Vendetta, in hopes of ruining some psycher's day. If I am not mistaken the Culexus' Psychic Abomination rule will be measured from the hull of the Vendetta, which is a pretty large area considering how large the Vendetta is (is it perhaps the largest flyer/vehicle in regular 40k in terms of square inches covered?
In my current list I have quite a lot of blasts (Paskisher with two Executioner buddies + thudd guns), so if I can remove some unit's Invisibility by chasing it with a big, fast, psychic-eating plane, I'll hopefully manage blasting it down.
The downside is of course that I can't bless my own units if they get within 12", and the IG really benefit from strength modifiers (similar to the Empire in WHFB), but oh well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is the guard's poor performance at major US tournaments caused by the mission formats benefitting faster armies or a lack of good players playing them?
Reece started off pretty well with his guard, and didn't he run a pretty unorthodox list with bullgryns? Poland's ETC team's guard-player also did well, right? ToF also ranks blob guard high. It seems to me like armies like Chaos and 'Nids have a dedicated player group that say "Alright, my army is ranked poorly, I'll take the challenge and show them!" - but I don't see the same for the guard.
Just some brain storming here, and I don't have my books with me so I might remember some rules wrong:
The lack of speed is an issue - how about veterans in Valkyries to jump down on objectives? Maybe with an Inquisitor providing servo skulls mid-field near objectives for more secure DSing?
What about getting some SW drop pods and put veterans in them? I'm thinking melta or demo charges.
A heavy weapon team in an Imperial Bunker with the Ammo dump upgrade might work, but I wish we could fit more than 3 models in there. How about Centurions jumping out mid-field through an escape hatch while the guard bombard your enemies from afar?
Any chance of Rough Riders being useful in maelstrom missions?
Just wait until a Catachan Dataslate brings back Marbo and the guard will be #1
The problem is that guard struggles with going out and grabbing objectives. Other armies have units that can go out and actually hold objectives. Guard on the other hand has to keep its force together. Sending a lone vet squad or 2 in chimeras to grab an objective is just sending them on a suicide mission resulting in your opponent picking them off.
Guardsmen just die so easily the moment they are out of cover or not in a transports. Unfortunately our tanks require infantry to wrap around them for cover and even then our infantry are pretty much a meat shield.
Valks arent a good idea as they are pretty expensive now and are only good at anti infantry. But we have the new wyvern artillery and a squad of 2 of those will out perform a valks multiple rocket pods any day. So the valk just wouldnt have any viable targets and would only be taken for droping troops off. The problem is if guard cant kill their opponent then guard will just fall over easily. assault ruins our tanks and infantry with ease and our troops die by the lightest shooting.
tankboy145 wrote: The problem is that guard struggles with going out and grabbing objectives. Other armies have units that can go out and actually hold objectives. Guard on the other hand has to keep its force together. Sending a lone vet squad or 2 in chimeras to grab an objective is just sending them on a suicide mission resulting in your opponent picking them off.
Guardsmen just die so easily the moment they are out of cover or not in a transports. Unfortunately our tanks require infantry to wrap around them for cover and even then our infantry are pretty much a meat shield.
Valks arent a good idea as they are pretty expensive now and are only good at anti infantry. But we have the new wyvern artillery and a squad of 2 of those will out perform a valks multiple rocket pods any day. So the valk just wouldnt have any viable targets and would only be taken for droping troops off. The problem is if guard cant kill their opponent then guard will just fall over easily. assault ruins our tanks and infantry with ease and our troops die by the lightest shooting.
Now that you've said it, I can never actually consider a Valkyrie again. Wyverns are just so much better.
Know your shielding units, conscripts in big blobs, armored sentinel squadrons, maybe bullgryns, or just more guardsmen. Objective secured is your friend, only one guardsman needs to make it to the objective.
Yes only one guardsmen needs to make it but when just about every weapon kills them so easily there's a really good chance none will make it. And if you put them in transports then you start to lose those infantry that were shields for your tanks. And if you start advancing those guardsmen on foot with tanks at the rear you ow start to put put your tanks in danger of melta or assault.
tankboy145 wrote: The problem is that guard struggles with going out and grabbing objectives. Other armies have units that can go out and actually hold objectives. Guard on the other hand has to keep its force together. Sending a lone vet squad or 2 in chimeras to grab an objective is just sending them on a suicide mission resulting in your opponent picking them off.
Guardsmen just die so easily the moment they are out of cover or not in a transports. Unfortunately our tanks require infantry to wrap around them for cover and even then our infantry are pretty much a meat shield.
Valks arent a good idea as they are pretty expensive now and are only good at anti infantry. But we have the new wyvern artillery and a squad of 2 of those will out perform a valks multiple rocket pods any day. So the valk just wouldnt have any viable targets and would only be taken for droping troops off. The problem is if guard cant kill their opponent then guard will just fall over easily. assault ruins our tanks and infantry with ease and our troops die by the lightest shooting.
Now that you've said it, I can never actually consider a Valkyrie again. Wyverns are just so much better.
Know your shielding units, conscripts in big blobs, armored sentinel squadrons, maybe bullgryns, or just more guardsmen. Objective secured is your friend, only one guardsman needs to make it to the objective.
I've actually had pretty good luck returning to Mech Vets. Chimeras moving up to 18" in a turn if they flat out really does give you some mobility, and they're way more durable now that Explodes! results are far less common. The biggest problem with Mech Vets in past editions is that when your Chimera blew up, half of the guys inside would go with it.
Lately I've been running them 2x Plasma 1x Melta and Krak Grenades (for assaulting Wave Serpents - it happens). The 2x Plasma is there for shooting out the top. The lone Melta Gun saves me 5 pts per unit and gives me an extra threat against high AV targets in case it becomes necessary. I ran them this way in 5th and actually liked it a lot despite traditional internet wisdom suggesting that mixed weapons is suboptimal.
FWIW Justin Cook (very experienced 40k player...basically invented Ovesa Star as far as I know) used to run 2x Melta 1x Flamer Vet squads in 5th edition, so there's at least one other player who likes a mixed loadout.
I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?
I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.
tankboy145 wrote: I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?
I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.
So at 1,500 points, I was running 3 Veteran squads.
With Chimera, Melta Gun, 2x Plasma Guns, and Krak Grenades they come in at 175 points each. The Krak Grenades are pretty situational but they do give you the ability to endanger Wave Serpents and even MCs and walkers in Assault.
It's nice because you often use Veterans differently than double-Special Weapons MEQ squads. Usually 2x Special MEQ squads can hang out in the Rhino and shoot out the top without losing firepower. Veteran squads, with their 3x Specials, sometimes want to disembark to maximize their effectiveness. People aren't usually worried about getting assaulted by Veterans the way they are about getting assaulted by MEQs so if there are other threats, they may ignore the vets especially if the Special Weapons are close and killed off by early shooting. This might leave you with 5 or 6 remaining Guardsmen with Krak Grenades ready to assault a unit. You could also run into vacuum type situations where a vehicle will be stunned by the Veterans' shooting and there aren't really any support units around for your opponent to devote to wiping them. It's a lot more reliable to Krak Grenade a Wave Serpent to death than to shoot it and hope you get past the 3+ Jink and 2+ Serpent Shield.
I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.
I like to hear it worked. My blob with LC, prescience and ignores cover order did not destroy a single serpent in the course of the game (actually several games now - i need to test this more, but its still the same). Was that bad luck? Honestly, no. Serpents are just too mobile and can easily avoid fire from blob, because blob is not mobile. Serpents can make good use of terrain on the table (if you are not plaing on flat plains) and together with other mobile units (hornets - incredibly good now, or warp spiders - very nasty) outmaneuver your guard units easily. Of course there will be some fire from time to time, but serpents are just too tough to crack, even with "almighty LC ignores cover blob".
A bit of statistics:
- In ideal situation, where all of your LCs can see enemy serpent, which will be not very often, with ignores cover order, which is about 91.5% reliable, your 50-man LC blob can give 5 shots, 2.5 hits, 1.67 hull points damage, which is really nothing for your opponent for so many points (350 is the blob without melta bombs, then you need Yarrick(145) for the order).
-With prescience, which is much less reliable and more costly (Tigurius for maximul reliability, which will still be not good enough if your enemy is warp charge heavy - 165 points), you will have 2.5 hull point damage. So, even with prescience AND ignores cover AND full LOS, you only have a chance to destroy one serpent. It is in no way guaranteed, you have to have luck to make that 3 hull points. And event then, you just used your about 650 points unit for destroying a much, much cheaper unit...
This is why I dont think upgraded blobs are the answer to serpents.
4 squads all together in a blob with 4 autocannons, 4 melta bombs and a character to make them hold the line served me well. Both times I passed the order for ignores cover I had killed a serpent. I will probably give my CCS a vox as well as the blob so I can pass the order more often.
I would rather leave the lascannons out of the blob and keep the anti tank to the vanquishers and vendettas or even the melta vets.
tankboy145 wrote: I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?
I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.
I like the plasma x2 + heavy flamer loadout on mech vets. Against any non-marine army, the heavy flamer is devastating either on the attack or in overwatch. After trying melta bombs on my guard sgts, I'm probably never going back. Being able to easily charge and destroy enemy rhinos with a guardsman sargent was awesome, and probably what I'll prefer over krak grenades, just because melta bombs are more reliable and able to hurt land raiders.
As for blobs, I cannot seem to make blobs work. They're clunky and ineffective whenever I use them, it's too hard to get enough lasguns in range or keep LOS for all the heavy weapons, and regardless of how well I equip my sgts the whole blob evaporates in close combat. One guy gets stuck in difficult terrain, and I hate the feeling of wasting so many lasguns by ordering and targeting for my autocannons. I keep the heavy weapons in CCS, PCS, and camo-vet squads. I still love conscripts with a commissar (though probably going with a priest now on) they're great for tarpitting and objective securing and bullet eating. But blob guardsmen just seems such a waste. I'm planning to run hunter-killer mech vets with plasma and 10-man assault squads of guardsmen with meltas or flamers and a primaris psyker with biomancy. Rather than paying for a power weapon on a sgt, I can pay 50 points and get a ML1 psyker with smite and a buff who comes with a free power weapon. Now my guardsmen are surplus wounds for a damage dealing psyker, the sgt can take a challenge in assault, and the psyker can do some damage (hopefully with warp speed or iron arm).
tankboy145 wrote: I've actually used this load out but instead ran a heavy flamer and also I didn't have the krak nades. Now with that setup how many vet squads do you usually run?
I've had success as well with mech vets but I've played against serpents my last couple of games and have had some bad luck with trying to kill them. My only solution do far has been a 40 man blob with auto cannons being ordered the ignores cover trait. This has been my only solution so far.
I like the plasma x2 + heavy flamer loadout on mech vets. Against any non-marine army, the heavy flamer is devastating either on the attack or in overwatch. After trying melta bombs on my guard sgts, I'm probably never going back. Being able to easily charge and destroy enemy rhinos with a guardsman sargent was awesome, and probably what I'll prefer over krak grenades, just because melta bombs are more reliable and able to hurt land raiders.
As for blobs, I cannot seem to make blobs work. They're clunky and ineffective whenever I use them, it's too hard to get enough lasguns in range or keep LOS for all the heavy weapons, and regardless of how well I equip my sgts the whole blob evaporates in close combat. One guy gets stuck in difficult terrain, and I hate the feeling of wasting so many lasguns by ordering and targeting for my autocannons. I keep the heavy weapons in CCS, PCS, and camo-vet squads. I still love conscripts with a commissar (though probably going with a priest now on) they're great for tarpitting and objective securing and bullet eating. But blob guardsmen just seems such a waste. I'm planning to run hunter-killer mech vets with plasma and 10-man assault squads of guardsmen with meltas or flamers and a primaris psyker with biomancy. Rather than paying for a power weapon on a sgt, I can pay 50 points and get a ML1 psyker with smite and a buff who comes with a free power weapon. Now my guardsmen are surplus wounds for a damage dealing psyker, the sgt can take a challenge in assault, and the psyker can do some damage (hopefully with warp speed or iron arm).
Y'know, I've considered a blob to be as sort of a bodyguard for a decked out Commissar, Primaris, and a priest. By and large the guardsmen will die horribly and quickly, but the sergeants might provide a pretty awesome bit of power weapon/axe goodness. But I'm with you, I can almost NEVER get blobs to do anything that everyone else has zero issue doing.
tankboy145 wrote: 4 squads all together in a blob with 4 autocannons, 4 melta bombs and a character to make them hold the line served me well. Both times I passed the order for ignores cover I had killed a serpent.
In that case you are very, VERY lucky, because the chance to kill a serpent in one turn with what you suggested is not very high (statistics say you will deal an average of 1.33 hull point damage per turn)
Is there a Battle Brother, Independent Character for AM/IG that provides Relentless? I know Space Wolf Guy used to have it dunno if there are any others?
RegulusBlack wrote: Is there a Battle Brother, Independent Character for AM/IG that provides Relentless? I know Space Wolf Guy used to have it dunno if there are any others?
Not that I'm aware of.
And also still on topic of the blobs. If anything give the sergeants melta bombs and then maybe give each squad either a flamer and a melta bomb. Add a commissar to make them hold their ground. Then run them at an objective. Run an addition conscript blob with a priest a f run them at another objective. With so many bodies your opponent will struggle to deal with them and with do many bodies you will be able to block the enemy from getting close enough before the game ends. Got to remember we are talking about guardsmen here and the fluff says they die I'm droves for the emperor...so try playing them that way. I have and it's actually worked and your opponent doesn't expect it when guardsmen come at them in numbers.
Have russes and a vet squad in chimera follow each of the blobs to lend support. The blob will try to keep the russ wrapped and the vet squad is the rear guard. If the guardsmen get overwhelmed then the vets can come forward and help hold the objective between the chimera and the guys inside. After that maybe try to get a vendetta for airsupport. Or some suicide melta scion squads to take our heavy armor.
I haven't tried this tactic but I assume it could work.
Leth wrote: He is from the red scorpions chapter, think his rules are on the FW website
Ah gotcha, I'm not familiar with FW which explains why I never heard of him. What a powerful beat stick that guy could be if he could pick his biomancy powers lol.
Leth wrote: He is from the red scorpions chapter, think his rules are on the FW website
Ah gotcha, I'm not familiar with FW which explains why I never heard of him. What a powerful beat stick that guy could be if he could pick his biomancy powers lol.
The links for Loth (and all the Badab War characters and chapters) are here. Totally free and easy. Loth's rules are a little out of date (it's not entirely clear how him armor should work; just a warp charge 1 power, I guess?) but he does get to pick all his own powers, although he can't mix and match from different disciplines.
Loth's armor works exactly as it says it does. You spend a warp charge and get a 2+ invuln.
Spending charges without manifesting a psychic power isn't unheard of -- the Eldar Ghost Helm does much the same thing. In the absence of any errata to the contrary, it works the same as it always did.
Prior to the space wolves getting a new codex I used to run a rune priest in a blob of guardsmen. I haven't tried it yet with their new codex but I feel a mastery lvl 2 rune priest fishing through divination could really buff a blob. I'm pretty sure if any psykers target the blob he denies them on a 4+ because he's a psyker and his runic weapon has some effect on that. Although if your blob is moving up a wolf priest giving preferred enemy to a specific unit type and a 6+fnp.
Leth wrote: Unless you are running a bunch of psykers I am in the take the guaranteed thing over a chance at the other one.
Also I would take Ulrik any day of the week over a regular wolf priest.
Oh yea ulrik will always be a better choice over a normal wolf priest. But there's also rune priest, you go on divination you then get the primaris and 2 other powers. The primaris alone being prescience makes a blob hit more shooting and in close combat. All other powers in the divination tree are pretty good as well.
Right, but as long as there is one SW in the unit, or within range they get preferred enemy. and only one model in the unit has to have it to benefit the entire squad.
Exactly so ulrik being a sw character gets preferred enemy himself. And only 1 model in the unit needs to have it to confer to the unit. So the blob would then get it.
I've read in a couple of army lists which contains veterans with 4 melta guns. These may be from earlier versions of IG codex, but in the current one I couldn't find a way to do it. You can only give 3 special weapons to veterans, special weapon teams. The only exceptions I find are the Command squads. So how are those possible?
Zsolt wrote: I've read in a couple of army lists which contains veterans with 4 melta guns. These may be from earlier versions of IG codex, but in the current one I couldn't find a way to do it. You can only give 3 special weapons to veterans, special weapon teams. The only exceptions I find are the Command squads. So how are those possible?
The demolitions doctrines give them melta bombs, they might be confused or not marking it clearly. But yes, you only get 3 melta guns.
Stumbled across this thread and there is so much to like, thanks all. After a while trying to find effective small model count armies and being disappointed, I am giving up and building a blob guard army. The two issues I think many have identified are:
-Prevalence of ignores cover (Wave Serpents worst of all)
-Mobility (I play under BAO/LVO format so have modified maelstrom objectives)
On the first, I think 4++ is where it's at for guard. Initially my thought was Azrael, but since I want other Divination spells anyway, I will probably rely on forewarning. For the home blob, I am thinking Skyshield over Aegis Line. On the second, initially my forward objective grabber was going to be a PCS w/ 4 flamers in a vendetta, but now I am thinking for the price of a vendetta and 4 flamers I can take Cypher and just infiltrate a whole blob (and give it shrouding).
The 1850 list I am settling around:
AM:
Yarrick
3 x Pskers, ML2
Cypher
Platoon 1:
PCS, Vox Caster, Melta Bombs
50 Infantry, 5x Power Axe, 5x Melta Bombs, 5x Las Cannons, Vox
50 man blob infiltrates w/ Cypher, OXI, and whichever Psyker gets Forewarning. 40 man blob w/ Coteaz sits on the skyshield along w/ Thudd guns. Toughts? I'll let you know how it plays after I paint about 85 more guardsmen . . .
Am I missing something? My Guard seems to be woefully not up to task against all the other armies. Played my friends Necrons, the transports are INSANELY better than any of the Guard transports, AND their guns are insanely better on the transport and all the guys inside. At this point I'm going to start fielding the bare minimum infantry because of how worthless the lasguns are. I hate the argument "yeah but you roll 40 dice" well let me break it down, 40 dice, usually hitting on 5+ then wounding on a 5+ then you get your full armor save. I'm lucky to cause 6 wounds on those 40 dice. Something needs to change because the only time I feel at all safe with my troops is if I'm fighting gretchins. "But look at how little they cost" yeah, and look at how little they can do, say you can field 10 units in a troop, while I get 20, my 20 aren't even the equal of 5 of your 10, they might as well not even be there. Not even to mention that they would get absolutely obliterated in CC, so what's the point to them? Between the gretchins and gaunts they have to be the absolute worst troop choice in the game, even the veterans who only get a BS 4 aren't worth it since they're still firing the lasguns. I am so frustrated, 40 dice on an overwatch, 1 wound. AND THEN, it doesn't even feel like I even have more troops on the table than my opponent, so please somebody.... what's the point of even taking them if to be nothing but a meat shield because it is too frustrating to me to keep losing so many guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a good analogy for Guard troops. It's like Mobile Suit Gundam, they send out the Gundam. Oh man, I should send out 20 Zaku 1's and 2's, maybe 10 Doms, 3 Gelgoogs. Yeah that should be good against that one Gundam.... WRONG!
chmcclellan wrote: Stumbled across this thread and there is so much to like, thanks all. After a while trying to find effective small model count armies and being disappointed, I am giving up and building a blob guard army. The two issues I think many have identified are:
-Prevalence of ignores cover (Wave Serpents worst of all)
-Mobility (I play under BAO/LVO format so have modified maelstrom objectives)
On the first, I think 4++ is where it's at for guard. Initially my thought was Azrael, but since I want other Divination spells anyway, I will probably rely on forewarning. For the home blob, I am thinking Skyshield over Aegis Line. On the second, initially my forward objective grabber was going to be a PCS w/ 4 flamers in a vendetta, but now I am thinking for the price of a vendetta and 4 flamers I can take Cypher and just infiltrate a whole blob (and give it shrouding).
The 1850 list I am settling around:
AM:
Yarrick
3 x Pskers, ML2
Cypher
Platoon 1:
PCS, Vox Caster, Melta Bombs
50 Infantry, 5x Power Axe, 5x Melta Bombs, 5x Las Cannons, Vox
50 man blob infiltrates w/ Cypher, OXI, and whichever Psyker gets Forewarning. 40 man blob w/ Coteaz sits on the skyshield along w/ Thudd guns. Toughts? I'll let you know how it plays after I paint about 85 more guardsmen . . .
Azrael isn't a bad choice for the blob. He guarantees you get a 4++ but a psychic power that you cast on your own blob can be denied. And that's if you even roll that power. Because if you go up against any psychic heavy army they will make sure they deny your power every time so your blob is that much weaker. I'm not saying the psychic power route is bad because I use a sw rune priest and try to get that power but my main goal is prescience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gamerely wrote: Am I missing something? My Guard seems to be woefully not up to task against all the other armies. Played my friends Necrons, the transports are INSANELY better than any of the Guard transports, AND their guns are insanely better on the transport and all the guys inside. At this point I'm going to start fielding the bare minimum infantry because of how worthless the lasguns are. I hate the argument "yeah but you roll 40 dice" well let me break it down, 40 dice, usually hitting on 5+ then wounding on a 5+ then you get your full armor save. I'm lucky to cause 6 wounds on those 40 dice. Something needs to change because the only time I feel at all safe with my troops is if I'm fighting gretchins. "But look at how little they cost" yeah, and look at how little they can do, say you can field 10 units in a troop, while I get 20, my 20 aren't even the equal of 5 of your 10, they might as well not even be there. Not even to mention that they would get absolutely obliterated in CC, so what's the point to them? Between the gretchins and gaunts they have to be the absolute worst troop choice in the game, even the veterans who only get a BS 4 aren't worth it since they're still firing the lasguns. I am so frustrated, 40 dice on an overwatch, 1 wound. AND THEN, it doesn't even feel like I even have more troops on the table than my opponent, so please somebody.... what's the point of even taking them if to be nothing but a meat shield because it is too frustrating to me to keep losing so many guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I found a good analogy for Guard troops. It's like Mobile Suit Gundam, they send out the Gundam. Oh man, I should send out 20 Zaku 1's and 2's, maybe 10 Doms, 3 Gelgoogs. Yeah that should be good against that one Gundam.... WRONG!
Yea I've come across this issue as well with guard. The poor troops have made me use them almost bare bones. Some orders make blobs with heavy weapons teams pretty good like being it down and fire on my target but otherwise lasguns are pretty poor. Also meat shield guardsmen are good for ur vehicles. Because your opponent has to kill them or you will get a cover save or ur opponent won't be in melta or assault range. And if your opponent is shooting at cheap infantry then your big guns are free to fire away. But the moment those infantry aren't being attacked they can sit and hold objectives.
Gamerely wrote: I'm lucky to cause 6 wounds on those 40 dice.
But what you need to remember is that those 40 dice didn't cost very many points. 40 dice = 20 guardsmen in rapid fire range or with FRFSRF = ~100 points. Of course you're going to do less damage than 100-200 point units, but when you consider damage per point those guardsmen are actually pretty effective. And then you also have to look at what else they do: they camp on objectives with hundreds of bodies (and a 2+ cover save in many situations), they take up space to block your opponent from getting to your big guns, etc. Even if your meatshields never inflict any casualties they can still do their job.
even the veterans who only get a BS 4 aren't worth it since they're still firing the lasguns.
Sounds like you don't really understand how veterans work. A veteran squad is 3x melta or plasma with some extra meatshields to catch bullets and keep the real guns alive. Any damage the lasguns happen to do is just a nice bonus.
I just happen to glue together a commissar, and thinking about what ccw and pistol should I add if I go for WYSIWYG.
Since the regular commissar isn't really a cc ace, I think I'll just go for Bolt pistol and chainsword. Although if it'll be shooty anyway, wouldn't it better to add a boltgun? Or am I missing something, and I should build a CC commissar with pistol and power axe/sword?
Is plasma pistol worth it's points? If I have a commissar model with power axe and a flamer (which is not a valid option for commissar now), the flamer counts as whatever I want, or what are the rules for that?
I read through this post and have really enjoyed the all the input. Something that seemed to be a recurring theme was that with mechanized lists is that its hard to hold/score objectives later game. With talk of allies I was thinking of bringing two 4 man tactical squads or one 10 man squad all in drop pods in a 1500 point list. Is this a good idea or am I just wasting points?
You cant do 4man tactical s (atleast i dont think you can)
Personally pref the 5man combi+special combo drop pods as it gives you an opportunity to put some pain down on a specific target like a tank or 2+ save unit like oblits
In the context of a IG list. they can be good if you are actually following them up. like with hell hounds or mech vets or whatever.
Desubot wrote: You cant do 4man tactical s (atleast i dont think you can)
Personally pref the 5man combi+special combo drop pods as it gives you an opportunity to put some pain down on a specific target like a tank or 2+ save unit like oblits
In the context of a IG list. they can be good if you are actually following them up. like with hell hounds or mech vets or whatever.
It is a minimum of 5 man, I was thinking 4 man plus sergeant. I'm gonna try to get my hands on a drop pod.
It depends on what is being brought by the ally. If it's just to get a tactical squad on the other side of the board it isn't a bad idea. But from experience one drop pod of 10 dudes will get shot to up and die without doing any significant impact.
tankboy145 wrote: It depends on what is being brought by the ally. If it's just to get a tactical squad on the other side of the board it isn't a bad idea. But from experience one drop pod of 10 dudes will get shot to up and die without doing any significant impact.
For the most part I don't intend too much to use these marines in getting kill points unless there is a unique opportunity where that can do some real damage real quick. The intent I had for them was to hold points and harass while My tanks advanced. This small detachment of space marines would be accompanied by Pask and a squad-mate, two wyvrens, two veteran squads in chimeras, and one to two more leman russ' depending on how I can swing the points. This a a heavy mechanized list and I think could benefit from having either two five man drop pods or one ten man holding points and harassing while the guard did the real work of dealing with the enemy.
So I'm interested in making a AM mech army of pretty much only vehicles (baring the mandatory 2 vet squads in chimeras). I'm currently looking at my fast attack options namely armored sentinels and valk/vendetta. I can't decide which one I should take.
Valkyrie can carry my melta vets for me instead of the chimera but itself doesn't have that impressive fire power. The Vendetta has good shooting and is great anti-air but is a bit spendy and has to start in reserves so doesn't start shooting until turn 2 at best.
And armored sentinels so viable. Take a squadron of 3 with lascannons and you get 6HP and 3 lascannons shots for 150 pts which is comparable to the Vendetta though its not twinlinked. They do get to shoot on turn 1 though. Or should I pick a different gun rough such as the autocannon?
CrownAxe wrote: So I'm interested in making a AM mech army of pretty much only vehicles (baring the mandatory 2 vet squads in chimeras). I'm currently looking at my fast attack options namely armored sentinels and valk/vendetta. I can't decide which one I should take.
Valkyrie can carry my melta vets for me instead of the chimera but itself doesn't have that impressive fire power. The Vendetta has good shooting and is great anti-air but is a bit spendy and has to start in reserves so doesn't start shooting until turn 2 at best.
And armored sentinels so viable. Take a squadron of 3 with lascannons and you get 6HP and 3 lascannons shots for 150 pts which is comparable to the Vendetta though its not twinlinked. They do get to shoot on turn 1 though. Or should I pick a different gun rough such as the autocannon?
I really like the idea of armored sentinel spam, they're so cheap now. I prefer multilasers or autocannons for multi role and because of BS3, but for some reason missile launchers cost the same as autocannons and lascannons are only 5 points more. A squad of three will be cheaper than plasma vets in a chimera, with much better range and durability, with the range they should be able to make up for their lower BS over the game. I don't think there are any bad choices when it comes to armored sentinels.
CrownAxe wrote: So I'm interested in making a AM mech army of pretty much only vehicles (baring the mandatory 2 vet squads in chimeras). I'm currently looking at my fast attack options namely armored sentinels and valk/vendetta. I can't decide which one I should take.
Valkyrie can carry my melta vets for me instead of the chimera but itself doesn't have that impressive fire power. The Vendetta has good shooting and is great anti-air but is a bit spendy and has to start in reserves so doesn't start shooting until turn 2 at best.
And armored sentinels so viable. Take a squadron of 3 with lascannons and you get 6HP and 3 lascannons shots for 150 pts which is comparable to the Vendetta though its not twinlinked. They do get to shoot on turn 1 though. Or should I pick a different gun rough such as the autocannon?
I really like the idea of armored sentinel spam, they're so cheap now. I prefer multilasers or autocannons for multi role and because of BS3, but for some reason missile launchers cost the same as autocannons and lascannons are only 5 points more. A squad of three will be cheaper than plasma vets in a chimera, with much better range and durability, with the range they should be able to make up for their lower BS over the game. I don't think there are any bad choices when it comes to armored sentinels.
+1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
Sounds like you don't really understand how veterans work. A veteran squad is 3x melta or plasma with some extra meatshields to catch bullets and keep the real guns alive. Any damage the lasguns happen to do is just a nice bonus.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
105 points for 3 veterans with plasma and the unit. These guys are going to die very quickly without a chimera or a taurox. Even if you don't use a transport your going to need carapace or camo and thats more points. So if you don't want them to die before they can even get a shot off you need to pay at least 120 points for 7 meat shields and 3 useful guys.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: +1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
If you put them behind a chimera, they will pretty hard to shoot out from there.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
IMO Veterans are meat shields which are more shooty. Storm troopers are a bit more elite, but still a bit thin. If you want real elite guard force, you need to go to the Space marines. Otherwise you'll just get meat in paperboxes.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
Last match, out of 10 plasma cannon shots I managed to land like 2 or 3 because of scatter. Those wiped out a DSd terminator squad, but still. So pieplates are a bit too random. Ofc regular plasma gun is a bit too random in killing your guys
NuggzTheNinja wrote: +1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
If you put them behind a chimera, they will pretty hard to shoot out from there.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
IMO Veterans are meat shields which are more shooty. Storm troopers are a bit more elite, but still a bit thin. If you want real elite guard force, you need to go to the Space marines. Otherwise you'll just get meat in paperboxes.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
Last match, out of 10 plasma cannon shots I managed to land like 2 or 3 because of scatter. Those wiped out a DSd terminator squad, but still. So pieplates are a bit too random. Ofc regular plasma gun is a bit too random in killing your guys
Storm troopers are worth even less than veterans. They inherently cost more, their range is crap, they have less special weapon slots, and cannot take camo.
Their range is too bad to warrant them as a foot model, so you need to either deepstrike them, or put them in a transport. Transports cost points, and deep striking is very dangerous as you need to deep strike them close enough so that they are in range, yet also not too close so if they do scatter they wont mishap. Assuming all of this works, chances are they deep strike outside rapid fire range, so you have 10 shots. out of those ten shots 6-7 of them will hit, then out of those 6-7 shots only 2-3 of them will wound. then the opposing player will most likely have a cover save. Their ap value does not make up for their lesser amount of special weapons, lower range, no camo, and more points.
one game i got lucky and deep struck a 10 man squad within 9 inches of an enemy devastator squad, and they were in range for orders. They made 2 wounds out of 30 shots and he only lost 2 devastators.
The thing that makes veterans survivable is that they can make 4+ cover into a 2+ by buying camo going to ground and then getting the get back in the fight order, but thats still 120 points for plasma veterans with camo.
oh yeah and gaunt's ghosts and the Elysians are most certainly Elite regiments. The sad thing is that i cannot make a light infantry force as it doesn't work at all because the entire codex is focused on vehicles instead of the actual guardsmen.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: +1...if I owned any Armored Sentinels I'd definitely be using them. Sit behind a Chimera for that juicy cover save then plug away with Lascannons or Autocannons.
If you put them behind a chimera, they will pretty hard to shoot out from there.
Veterans are supposed to be bad asses. Not meat shields for special weapons. Some people want to play a semi elite guard force without fielding a hoard of guardsmen. If those guys are only meat shields then why are they veterans?
IMO Veterans are meat shields which are more shooty. Storm troopers are a bit more elite, but still a bit thin. If you want real elite guard force, you need to go to the Space marines. Otherwise you'll just get meat in paperboxes.
I might as well get 2 heavy sentinels with plasma cannons for 100 points. They are more survivable, cost less and have more potential to wipe an enemy unit out.
Last match, out of 10 plasma cannon shots I managed to land like 2 or 3 because of scatter. Those wiped out a DSd terminator squad, but still. So pieplates are a bit too random. Ofc regular plasma gun is a bit too random in killing your guys
Storm troopers are worth even less than veterans. They inherently cost more, their range is crap, they have less special weapon slots, and cannot take camo.
Their range is too bad to warrant them as a foot model, so you need to either deepstrike them, or put them in a transport. Transports cost points, and deep striking is very dangerous as you need to deep strike them close enough so that they are in range, yet also not too close so if they do scatter they wont mishap. Assuming all of this works, chances are they deep strike outside rapid fire range, so you have 10 shots. out of those ten shots 6-7 of them will hit, then out of those 6-7 shots only 2-3 of them will wound. then the opposing player will most likely have a cover save. Their ap value does not make up for their lesser amount of special weapons, lower range, no camo, and more points.
one game i got lucky and deep struck a 10 man squad within 9 inches of an enemy devastator squad, and they were in range for orders. They made 2 wounds out of 30 shots and he only lost 2 devastators.
The thing that makes veterans survivable is that they can make 4+ cover into a 2+ by buying camo going to ground and then getting the get back in the fight order, but thats still 120 points for plasma veterans with camo.
oh yeah and gaunt's ghosts and the Elysians are most certainly Elite regiments. The sad thing is that i cannot make a light infantry force as it doesn't work at all because the entire codex is focused on vehicles instead of the actual guardsmen.
I think you're too early to dismiss Storm Troopers because you had a bad experience with deepstriking.
My first experience with DS'ing way back in early 5th was with Terminators and an Assault Squad. The former mishapped and died, the latter got delayed 3 turns in a row and then landed slapbang next to a Deathwing Terminator Squad, who promptly ate them. I still use deepstriking stuff though I was put off for a while, and there's even more reason to now given that terrain like ruins doesn't cause mishaps and its generally a lot harder to screw it up now.
Scions are not going to wipe squads off the board, they're a scalpel that with their special weapon fire, which starts easier and closer to the enemy than with Vets due to their deepstrike, can deal with and add specialist firepower against certain units like vehicles and such. In addition, they're one of the very few ways we have of reliably being able to get some stuff in the backboard, and for relatively cheap - the cost of a Valkyrie is almost as much as a 10 man squad of Scions with decent weapons. Move Through Cover is always forgotten, but it always helps with getting to those objectives that you bought them to grab. Basically, you can either run them as suicide special weapon squads, objective takers, or try to do both.
You don't buy Scions for the Hotshots, and a squad of 10 won't singlehandedly clear an objective (well, unless you've got flamers or you're facing MSU) so they rely heavily on your firepower reserves to help with that, which can be a pain in the ass but generally I find I can do that anyway because I always keep a good distance from my opponent. (honestly why I am not a fan of the Pask Punisher that everyone worships)
As for running light infantry, well, I do that myself. I don't use Foot Vets, what I do is I generally take a blob of 30-50 men and put Cypher in there, who I have modelled as an Inquisitor in power armour. 99.9% of the people I meet run with the idea that Cypher does confer infiltrate, as do a fair amount of tournaments, though even if you're not going to do that he still gives outflank. Add in an actual Inquisitor with liber heresius and you're golden after you scout following infiltrate, prescience, FRFSRF.
I reckon Foot Vets can be done, though not intensively. I'd run a few squads with camo-cloaks and triple melta that shore up the lines for my armoured element (my fluff is that generally my army consists of both) But yes, running exclusively light infantry will be very hard unless you go for something fluffy like adding in a Freeblade Knight or two, or maybe some allied Space Marines.
so what you are saying is that #1 storm troopers are not there to kill marines, they are there for their special weapons. #2 they won't kill infantry units #3 they rely on additional support #4 they are there to take objectives.
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
if i am not buying storm troopers for their hotshots, then why am i buying storm troopers? they have less options in wargear (no camo), have less special weapons, and are priced more, presumably because of their hotshots.
if vehicles are a problem then there are 2 other more reliable ways of dealing with them also. Vendettas, and melta vets in Valkyries. 2 multi rocket pods and the multi laser will take care of infantry, and the veterans can take care of vehicles. If they need to get out of combat after they have taken the objective they can then mount up inside the valkyrie which is much faster then moves through cover.
With this setup you don't have to worry about randomness, and each unit is much better equipped at its intended goal. Not to mention most players i have faced will immediately focus fire on scions for fear of ap3.
there is no point in taking light infantry if you use tanks, tracked vehicles, armored units and large blob squads. that is not light infantry, that is a mass of guardsmen with outflank.
Light infantry operate without heavy support and instead rely on aircraft and smaller vehicles. To say you need armored support to make light infantry work, is to forfeit the idea of there being light infantry.
Sledgehammer wrote: so what you are saying is that #1 storm troopers are not there to kill marines, they are there for their special weapons. #2 they won't kill infantry units #3 they rely on additional support #4 they are there to take objectives.
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
if i am not buying storm troopers for their hotshots, then why am i buying storm troopers? they have less options in wargear (no camo), have less special weapons, and are priced more, presumably because of their hotshots.
if vehicles are a problem then there are 2 other more reliable ways of dealing with them also. Vendettas, and melta vets in Valkyries. 2 multi rocket pods and the multi laser will take care of infantry, and the veterans can take care of vehicles. If they need to get out of combat after they have taken the objective they can then mount up inside the valkyrie which is much faster then moves through cover.
With this setup you don't have to worry about randomness, and each unit is much better equipped at its intended goal. Not to mention most players i have faced will immediately focus fire on scions for fear of ap3.
there is no point in taking light infantry if you use tanks, tracked vehicles, armored units and large blob squads. that is not light infantry, that is a mass of guardsmen with outflank.
Light infantry operate without heavy support and instead rely on aircraft and smaller vehicles. To say you need armored support to make light infantry work, is to forfeit the idea of there being light infantry.
If their range were 24", scions would be a semi-viable choice. They need to be able to clear the immediate area when they deep strike because they will get wrecked in assault, but between the deep strike scatter and their short range, it's very unlikely that you're going to be able to order and/or rapid fire against a good target.
Unlike a vendetta that can alpha strike on the turn it comes in, naked scions struggle to get into the action by turn 4, and they've already missed half the game. If they could still infiltrate...or still had a pistol and ccw...then maybe, but as is they're not even very good at clearing small units off objectives. I only see their use in deep striking onto uncontested objectives (at 70 points, it's not a high price tag in larger battles).
As mentioned, they really seem like they're designed for armored or aerial assault: zoom up, disembark, and unload a platoon's worth of FRF hotshot fire into the enemy. I imagine the MT formations are very good for this. But in the AM codex, Scions aren't even particularly good at their appointed task, killing 3+ or 4+ infantry. They cost the same points as a Space Marine, but even in their rapid fire range on open ground they are only as good at killing marines as marines are at killing them, and that doesn't factor in how marines will slaughter them in CC, or the increased range of a bolter, or if they're in cover.
The problem is your looking at guard and expecting bad ass vets(normal human beings with a little better aim) to so what space marines do.
Sometimes you have to play the game by fluff. Guardsmen will die in short order to the smallest firepower. It's human beings against super genetically enhanced human beings with better armor and better weapons.
Most of the time in fluff guard only wins through attrition. And taking 90% casualties to huge forces.
The problem is the infantry are geared to relying on orders as orders really enhance guardsmens abilities. But mech units don't benefit from this from being in transports. So you lose out on the biggest bonus infantry have. Then if you run platoons to benefit from orders then your losing out on mobility of objective secured troops going out and capturing objectives. It's a lose lose situation for the Astra militarum.
Every army has it's flaws(minus eldar as they are broke and are a mistake) but it's up to you to try and make the most effective army you can to deal with your flaws. It's strategy. I don't want a broken army that can hammer my opponent and grab all the objectives. If I wanted to win automatically and easily I would play eldar. But I love my cheap tanks and infantry I can spam and I like a challenge.
tankboy145 wrote: The problem is your looking at guard and expecting bad ass vets(normal human beings with a little better aim) to so what space marines do.
Sometimes you have to play the game by fluff. Guardsmen will die in short order to the smallest firepower. It's human beings against super genetically enhanced human beings with better armor and better weapons.
Most of the time in fluff guard only wins through attrition. And taking 90% casualties to huge forces.
The problem is the infantry are geared to relying on orders as orders really enhance guardsmens abilities. But mech units don't benefit from this from being in transports. So you lose out on the biggest bonus infantry have. Then if you run platoons to benefit from orders then your losing out on mobility of objective secured troops going out and capturing objectives. It's a lose lose situation for the Astra militarum.
Every army has it's flaws(minus eldar as they are broke and are a mistake) but it's up to you to try and make the most effective army you can to deal with your flaws. It's strategy. I don't want a broken army that can hammer my opponent and grab all the objectives. If I wanted to win automatically and easily I would play eldar. But I love my cheap tanks and infantry I can spam and I like a challenge.
guys like this
Spoiler:
Arkan is a temperate world covered in forests. The planet is 25% larger than Terra and revolves around a bright blue star, named Arka. Arkan means of Arka.
The world’s forests consist of taiga, redwood, deciduous, jungle, and pine. No matter where you are on Arkan you are either surrounded by forest, above it, or on the oceans. There are no deserts, or plains, there is only forest. The lack of any kind of environment that does not include forests is due to the rapid rate at which vegetation grows. Once a tree is cut down it only takes a year for a new tree to grow and become just as big as the one that was cut down. No one knows why vegetation grows so quickly, but the ecclesiarchy officially states that it is a gift of the emperor even if reports dating back before contact with the great crusade mention the growth phenomena.
Forests and plants grow so quickly that any indent on the landscape is restored in a short time. This makes permeant settlements, and clearing land for agriculture hard. Force fields seem to have an effect on the rapid growth of vegetation so all major settlements employ their use. Agriculture gets around this problem by consolidating land, labor, and capital into plantations that have force fields on their outskirts that prevent the forest from encroaching on agricultural land, whilst still allowing for the rapid growth of produce. The most common way for agriculture to be done is a nomadic system. Forest fires rage all the time on Arkan and some have found a way to employ them to their benefit. Land that has been cleared by forest fires in quickly turned into temporary agricultural ground where it is utilized until the forest begins to encroach again.
Forest fires are very dangerous and constantly threaten the people of Arken. Walls are erected, and trees are constantly cleared from around settlements to combat the threat. An entire section of the planetary defense force is dedicated to fighting these fires. The men and women that make up this task force are the initiates of the local defense force.
Under the constant threat of fire, and hindered by thousands of miles of forest, traditional vehicles are essentially impossible to utilize for transportation between settlements. In their stead aircraft perform the same role. Without an abundance of aircraft transportation of goods and personnel would be dangerous and hindersome. Due to their importance many people and families have aircraft. These can be small gyro copters, balloons, prop planes, helicopters, jets, VTOL capable aircraft, and amphibious landers. Storage of the majority of the aircraft is in underground hangers that can house an entire settlements supply of aircraft. Airports are the center of commerce and trade on Arkan. Every town has an airport for without one it could not send or receive anything. The abundance of aircraft on Arkan and its imperative use by its citizens makes them a very good pilots and airmen.
Arkan society is pseudo class based. Mutants generally work in the nomadic agricultural and logging trains where they. Humans of low class either work in the plantations as sweat shop “employees” or as valued workers, or clear the land around settlements for protection from fire. Low class citizens also work as mechanics on the vast array of aircraft. Arkan’s middle class is comprised of cargo pilots, low ranking members of Arkans planetary government, accountants, lawyers, teachers etc. High ranking members of Arkan society are high ranking members of the Planetary Government, members of nepotistic business families, and the descendants of famous persons. Above all of them is the Planetary Governor. The Planetary Governor is elected by the people in a first past the post system. Every citizen of Arkan votes for the Governor each has a single vote. The only people that cannot vote are mutants, and criminals. Once a Planetary Governor has been elected he serves until his death at which point a new Governor is voted upon.
The Governor heads the entire planet and is responsible for its defense, imperial tithes, and the wellbeing of the people. The people vote for the candidate that they feel benefits them the most, thus most planetary governors fulfill that purpose well in relation to other imperial worlds. Not all provide for their people though, as that ruse was only needed to get elected, and thus protected by edict of the imperium. Imperial tithes are required of Arkan like almost every other imperial world. It supplies a vast amount of lumber, and produce, so vast that Arkan is not required to give units to the imperial guard or navy.
The Planetary defense force defends the planet from possible invasions, heretics, and lawbreakers. The unique property of Arkan draws a certain kind of criminal. Drug farmers come to Arkan from all over to plant illicit vegetation in the shield of the woods. The planetary defense force employs task forces to find destroy, and execute these criminals and their drugs. It does this by deploying scouting and recon forces on the ground which are equipped with horses that can traverse the terrain for months at a time without needing to refuel. Behind them are light infantry detachments made up of heavy weapons teams, equipped with mortars, rocket launchers, lascannons, and heavy bolters, general infantrymen, and sentinels ,which can traverse the forests due to their bipedal nature. The task force is then supported by air cavalry that drops troops via grav chute, or fast rope into combat; and provides air support. The aerial element also intercepts and destroys criminal aircraft. If the situation warrants it can execute aerial boarding protocols with vtol aircraft, or even moving planes.
The lack of imperial guard and navy recruitment has left the PDF with many veterans. In response to this the First Arkan Volunteer Group was formed by a veteran of the pdf that wished to fight on other worlds for the imperium. Ever since then volunteer groups have formed on Arkan that seek to serve the Imperium. The members of the 1ST AVG are the most veteran members of the PDF. They are given leave from the PDF to join the 1st AVG by the Planetary Governor. Each member of the 1st AVG must be given leave by the Governor and then accepted by its commander.
The 1st AVG itself is not under the command of anyone but its leader. It exists outside the authority of the Governor, as he only gives leave to its members and supplies them with some of their equipment. The organization itself is pretty much free to do as it wishes and take on tasks that please it. The freedom that this unit is able to operate with is both a boon and a burden. While the governor gives his blessing and supplies them with some equipment they still possess fewer resources than other regiments. To get around this they take on jobs that pay well, and resupply them. Surprisingly they are well equipped even with these logistical nightmares. They contain a vast array of aircraft, sentinels, camo cloaks, carapace armor, and hotshot lasguns but no tanks or any tracked or wheeled vehicles. Some suspect that they are regularly hired by inquisitors to perform jobs such as support a revolution on a world against a corrupt Planetary Governor as a way to keep inquisitorial involvement shrouded.
The pilots and men of the 1st AVG are all veterans that fight in the forests and the skies for an imperium that didn’t ask them to join.
are structurally, tactically, and equipmentally (thats not even a word) different than valhallan, or steel legion troopers. I'm not saying that they should be like marines at all. What i am saying is that the troops are weaker than they should be. Normal players that lack my crazy ridiculous restrictions, won't notice the failings of the IG infantry, because they will always have a transport, a tank, or artillery to back them up. Its never about a guardsmen and his rifle, instead its about the tank and its crew. If guardsmen are simply meat shields then why would i ever use more expensive meat shields if they both are only worth the amount of shielding they provide?
Give me outflanking, give me auxiliary krak grenade launchers (elysian book stuff), give me infiltrate, give me usable rough riders, give me something for my guardsmen to utilize so they can perform in a manner that represents their fluff and combat doctrine.
No one is going to travel in the woods for weeks on end without campfires, or loud vehicles and still end up operating in the same manner as a human wave. Marsoc has a much different battle structure to the airforce pjs. Give me rules and equipment that reflects this change in tactics and equipment. No one is going to give up something if they get nothing else in return.
my flaw is that i don't use any vehicles except the sentinel, taros jeep, and flyers. What is my strength, if my strength is supposed to be my tanks?
Sledgehammer wrote: s
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
The rest of your post being basically subjective, this unit here is garbage and will never get within a thousand miles of the enemy's backboard (as opposed to the relative ease with which Scions accomplish this), while putting out a truly laughable amount of firepower that makes Scout Snipers look fearsome in comparison. They won't be killing jack and all they will get to do is capture objectives you can already easily hold, that isn't an issue.
So you've effectively missed half the point of taking Scions.
Sledgehammer wrote: so what you are saying is that #1 storm troopers are not there to kill marines, they are there for their special weapons. #2 they won't kill infantry units #3 they rely on additional support #4 they are there to take objectives.
a better usage of the so called scalpel ability that the MT have is instead with veterans again. 3x snipers with camo cloaks can reach out and touch a lot of what is on the board, which fulfills the same role at picking off important units down field. Cover becomes irrelevant due to orders, which they will much more likely be in range of.
if i am not buying storm troopers for their hotshots, then why am i buying storm troopers? they have less options in wargear (no camo), have less special weapons, and are priced more, presumably because of their hotshots.
if vehicles are a problem then there are 2 other more reliable ways of dealing with them also. Vendettas, and melta vets in Valkyries. 2 multi rocket pods and the multi laser will take care of infantry, and the veterans can take care of vehicles. If they need to get out of combat after they have taken the objective they can then mount up inside the valkyrie which is much faster then moves through cover.
With this setup you don't have to worry about randomness, and each unit is much better equipped at its intended goal. Not to mention most players i have faced will immediately focus fire on scions for fear of ap3.
there is no point in taking light infantry if you use tanks, tracked vehicles, armored units and large blob squads. that is not light infantry, that is a mass of guardsmen with outflank.
Light infantry operate without heavy support and instead rely on aircraft and smaller vehicles. To say you need armored support to make light infantry work, is to forfeit the idea of there being light infantry.
If their range were 24", scions would be a semi-viable choice. They need to be able to clear the immediate area when they deep strike because they will get wrecked in assault, but between the deep strike scatter and their short range, it's very unlikely that you're going to be able to order and/or rapid fire against a good target.
Unlike a vendetta that can alpha strike on the turn it comes in, naked scions struggle to get into the action by turn 4, and they've already missed half the game. If they could still infiltrate...or still had a pistol and ccw...then maybe, but as is they're not even very good at clearing small units off objectives. I only see their use in deep striking onto uncontested objectives (at 70 points, it's not a high price tag in larger battles).
As mentioned, they really seem like they're designed for armored or aerial assault: zoom up, disembark, and unload a platoon's worth of FRF hotshot fire into the enemy. I imagine the MT formations are very good for this. But in the AM codex, Scions aren't even particularly good at their appointed task, killing 3+ or 4+ infantry. They cost the same points as a Space Marine, but even in their rapid fire range on open ground they are only as good at killing marines as marines are at killing them, and that doesn't factor in how marines will slaughter them in CC, or the increased range of a bolter, or if they're in cover.
1) They don't need to clear the immediate area themselves. A) Don't throw them willy nilly into a pointless crossfire where they will get slaughtered and B) Use your support elements, you're playing Guard afterall.
2) Having Scions naked is a terrible idea to begin with, and your estimate there is way, way off. They should almost certainly be able to put out at least some fire the turn they arrive or the turn after - and if they survive to turn 4, or are still running around by that time, good- you want your backboard objective holders to stay alive even if it means you need to play them cautiously.
3) Vendettas can only effectively alpha-strike flyers, MC's and to a less extent than Scions, vehicles. They cannot reliably hold objectives in the backboard and cost 10 points more than the most expensive Scion Squad you can probably expect to have.
4) Their appointed task isn't killing 3+ or 4+ infantry. That AP3 is an asset, not the unit's purpose. They're not designed to beat Marines in a 1 on 1 firefight - do you send your mob of Guardsmen to singlehandedly deal with a squad of Marines? No. You add in your support assets to soften them up or finish them off.
The point of not taking any large or tracked vehicles is so they can maneuver and operate in dense foliage, and rubble that otherwise would get them seen, or harry their progress. The point is that by not taking any vehicles i should get something else in return. If the point of excluding large vehicles is to obtain better maneuverability, and stealth in these situations, but i receive no stealth or maneuverability, then there is no reason to ever do so.
But see that's your own limitations you put on yourself. The codex fluff states that infantry artiller and armor regiments need to work together. For an all infantry regiment will get cut down. If you play all armor you will get ambushed from troops and air. If your force foesnt work with supporting or covering elements you lose.
If you want your fluff to work you need to spam vets with camo cloaks and play on boards with heavy terrain. If you don't play on a board with heavy terrain you lose. Yet again guardsmen are just ordinary humans who are raised to fight where everything I. The galaxy has better technology, or is genetically engineered to kill. The guardsmen are outmatched. But we have numbers. That's how guard wins. We do a lot of damage with large numbers. You take our numbers away then have fun taking away your firepower too.
Sentinels. Taros jeeps, and fliers should be able to support a light infantry detachment. all 3 of them can perform multiple roles. taros can perform anti infantry, and anti tank. Sentinels can take care of infantry and tanks. Valkyries and vendettas can take of air, troops, tanks, and transport models. there should be nothing wrong with that supporting composition. they cover all the bases and they have served me well. I don't need tanks, as my current support is satisfactory. What i need are troops that can survive long enough, do enough damage, or can actually outflank/infiltrate so that their support can actually help them.
infantry, artillery, and tank elements don't always have to work hand in hand. Fluff wise the ghosts perform well as light infantry, as do the Elysian when they are on deep insertion missions. each are supported by a force much like the one i utilize. they benefit more than they lose by giving up tanks and large vehicles because they can actually move about enemy territory conducting reconnaissance, and strikes without being seen.
Sledgehammer wrote: The point of not taking any large or tracked vehicles is so they can maneuver and operate in dense foliage, and rubble that otherwise would get them seen, or harry their progress. The point is that by not taking any vehicles i should get something else in return. If the point of excluding large vehicles is to obtain better maneuverability, and stealth in these situations, but i receive no stealth or maneuverability, then there is no reason to ever do so.
Well hiding doesn't help you. Your opponent sees everything you have on the board. And you do get stealth. Give all your vets camo cloaks. It's a cheap upgrade to grant +1 save. And you actually so have more mobility. Order "move move move" if you aren't taking vehicles you should have plenty of orders to go around.
And it doesn't matter what fluff your playing to or what story you create for yourself but guardsmen die in droves. They don't have access to great armor so most common weapons will always go through your armor. And your men are just human. They will only have toughness 3. Everything will wound them easily so that's where your problem is. People can stack wounds on you and it doesn't matter how much of a cover or armor save you got but once enough wounds stacks the unit will fail it's saves.
You also have to remember your guardsmen have lasguns. A weapon that's only effective when in large quantities because it rarely wounds.
Sledgehammer wrote: The point of not taking any large or tracked vehicles is so they can maneuver and operate in dense foliage, and rubble that otherwise would get them seen, or harry their progress. The point is that by not taking any vehicles i should get something else in return. If the point of excluding large vehicles is to obtain better maneuverability, and stealth in these situations, but i receive no stealth or maneuverability, then there is no reason to ever do so.
Well hiding doesn't help you. Your opponent sees everything you have on the board. And you do get stealth. Give all your vets camo cloaks. It's a cheap upgrade to grant +1 save. And you actually so have more mobility. Order "move move move" if you aren't taking vehicles you should have plenty of orders to go around.
And it doesn't matter what fluff your playing to or what story you create for yourself but guardsmen die in droves. They don't have access to great armor so most common weapons will always go through your armor. And your men are just human. They will only have toughness 3. Everything will wound them easily so that's where your problem is. People can stack wounds on you and it doesn't matter how much of a cover or armor save you got but once enough wounds stacks the unit will fail it's saves.
You also have to remember your guardsmen have lasguns. A weapon that's only effective when in large quantities because it rarely wounds.
What i am saying is that i agree lasguns should not be any more powerful, nor should the toughness of guardsmen change, but what i am saying is that i should be able to use my men in a different way because they themselves operate differently. One such way to reflect stealth tactics is by allowing some of them to be upgraded with outflank and or infiltrate. Inherently the stats of the guardsmen don't change. The only that that does change is their ability to engage and position themselves against units that they can actually wound or deal damage to. The guardsmen don't get anymore powerful, they just are able to actually utilize their strengths against targets that they choose to engage. Outflank and infiltrate would allow me to do that.
I had made a post a while ago in the tactics section and it didn't seem to help but seeing as plenty of people pay attention to this thread I figured I would bring up a difficulty I am having. I don't like building lists to counter certain armies specifically but I do like to build all rounder lists to handle most if not all situations.
No my point or difficulty I am having is dark eldar.
Usually turn one if I'm going first they hide behind terrain and I have usually nothing to shot at. If there's night fighting then with their jinking they usually all have between a 2+ or 3+ cover save.
My opponent usually runs Lilith, duke or some archon I guess I don't know much of the hq stuff. Then there is usually 2-3 squads of wyches in a boats and usually 2 squads of warriors each in boats. Then there's some true born or something in venoms that spam a crazy amount of shots. His heavy slot usually has some ship that fires 3 lance shot or something. Then he usually uses this flier that fires a ton of large blasts that usually mulch my guardsmen.
I have plenty of guardsmen, russes, chimeras, heavy weapons teams to basically play mech, armor, or infantry based lists. I have acces to 2 valks or vendettas. I have wall of martyrs network pieces and aegis defense lines and a bastion. I also have sw allies.
The problem that I keep running into is that basically if I can't kill enough of his transports turn 1 and somehow kill most of the units in those transports he's usually assaulting me turn 2 and eliminating whole units. Entire blobs usually get dragged in and killed and vehicles and tanks get chewed up by lances and haywire grenades.
I don't want to build a list to specifically tool against de but I want something that can also handle most other armies like daemons, and marines(common in the meta).
What should I run or do.
My lists usually incorporate a tank commander(pask if points are there). I normally don't like putting pask in a punisher because I hate getting the tank up close and the de player has that ability on his ships that subracts 6" from my weapons range. Making pask need to get too close.
I like running vanquishers with lc hull and PC sponsons. I usually always incorporate a squad of 2 wyverns in almost all of my lists now as they really help me deal with any opponents infantry. Hydras would be nice against de but aside from them they aren't very helpful against other armies. To get rid of his cover saves I usually try torun blobs and use the ignores cover order.
I broke our DE player to the point that he doesn't play DE against IG or GK anymore, but I'd suggest to keep a couple squads of infantry loose to bubble wrap your blobs. Cheap SWS work well for this too if you have enough room to keep them from going around the other squads. If they have to stop to shoot the guys in front, you've won. If they have to assault the guys in front, you've won.
Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.
If he is charging you all the time, you don't really need to move Pask much...
You have Nova cannon LR, Wyvern, ignore cover senior order, or even flamer SWS should help, all of it has ignore cover, DE is lightly armored, so AP4-5 won't be that much problem.
Maybe counter charging them would work. You deny him the charge bonuses, you get yours. Conscripts blob with a priest are supposed to be good cc units.
daedalus wrote: I broke our DE player to the point that he doesn't play DE against IG or GK anymore, but I'd suggest to keep a couple squads of infantry loose to bubble wrap your blobs. Cheap SWS work well for this too if you have enough room to keep them from going around the other squads. If they have to stop to shoot the guys in front, you've won. If they have to assault the guys in front, you've won.
Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.
Well the only problem is if smaller squads are in front then his units like wyches who have 6+ armor now have a 5+ cover. I don't think warriors have fnp but a 5+ for them is no bonus. But I guess once they wipe the squad in front then the blob behind has open field to the wyches then.
And the ignores cover order is senior orders requiring a ccs. But the problem is hws are only ld7 meaning the order will pass half the time. It would be good for a blob with hwt's but not on the 3 man squads.
daedalus wrote: I broke our DE player to the point that he doesn't play DE against IG or GK anymore, but I'd suggest to keep a couple squads of infantry loose to bubble wrap your blobs. Cheap SWS work well for this too if you have enough room to keep them from going around the other squads. If they have to stop to shoot the guys in front, you've won. If they have to assault the guys in front, you've won.
Also, isn't there an "ignore cover" order? That would work well on a HWS to put some pain on their paper skimmers.
Well the only problem is if smaller squads are in front then his units like wyches who have 6+ armor now have a 5+ cover. I don't think warriors have fnp but a 5+ for them is no bonus. But I guess once they wipe the squad in front then the blob behind has open field to the wyches then.
And the ignores cover order is senior orders requiring a ccs. But the problem is hws are only ld7 meaning the order will pass half the time. It would be good for a blob with hwt's but not on the 3 man squads.
You can add some IC to boost leadership. Primaris psyker with Divination, using prescience boost your HWS's effectivity quite much. Also if they are coming close, you can use blobs with flash lights (maybe on rapid fire), add FRFSRF, maybe a prescience, you'll have a lot of dice to throw.
Chimeras seem to be pretty darn good against Dark Eldar. All of their vehicles have such low armor and lances count for a lot less against AV 12 spam.
Also, a key rule, flamer templates now inflict d6 hits on the passengers in open-topped transports. Flamers and heavy flamers will decimate any Dark Eldar units on the assault (except incubi). I run mech vets with 2xplasma or 2xmelta and 1 heavy flamer, overwatch against guys assaulting vehicles and can flame out the top.
It's tempting to go blob against DE, since their poison isn't as great against T3, but DE can put out a withering hail of Ap5 shots between their BS4 splinter rifles and splinter cannons. The venoms put out a ton of shots, so I'd glance them down with autocannons and multilasers (don't forget +1 for open-topped). DE start to lose their luster against 4+ saves and light armor, so load up on carapace vets, chimeras, and sentinels. Their poisoned weapons count for nothing against vehicles, and AV 12 will hold out reasonably well against their dark lances.
While DE can dish out damage, they're not so good at taking it, and flamer weapons will decimate DE squads. Put flamers in every squad that you can. Get fire barrels on your important vehicles to ward off haywire assaults.
DE are deceptively good in a firefight, due to their BS 4, high mobility, and advanced weaponry. You've got to punch them hard and box them in so that all your weapons are in range and their mobility counts for less.
See DE isn't scary at all when IG are on the board. Yeah, lance this and lance that, assault transports and crap, but when my Punisher and Wyverns get their chance, those BDSM Eldar will die in droves.
Additionally, arguing that fluff should make a squad of troopers better than their counterparts is nice and all, but if that were the case Space Wolves would never use bolters, or heavy weapons, CSM's would suffer ID from lasguns, and all marines would have an extra attack called 'headbutt'. Fluff simply isn't a good enough reason to argue the quality change in a group of soldiers. And if you could actually make that argument, I'd be righteously pissed that people argued that Veterans needed the buff when we've got 900 point Ogryns without invulnerable saves that are worth a damn.
Also HWT's are terrible. I love them so much, but they suck so hard in their current iteration. Even if you make a list built specifically to spam them, you'll need like 2k just to get the level of firepower to 'reasonable'.
Frankenberry wrote: ...I'd be righteously pissed that people argued that Veterans needed the buff when we've got 900 point Ogryns without invulnerable saves that are worth a damn...
Also HWT's are terrible. I love them so much, but they suck so hard in their current iteration. Even if you make a list built specifically to spam them, you'll need like 2k just to get the level of firepower to 'reasonable'.
On ogryns, sometimes it just takes 8 editions to get something right.
And fixing HWTs would take too much effort, like changing their points cost to equal special weapons teams. You can't expect the writers to fix everything that's been broken for years and would take literally two seconds to fix.
Yea my problem is that they are great at shooting and turn 1 they usually will have a 3+ save with night fighting. 4 for jinking, and +1 for night fight(usually)
The wyches usually get in full strength to assault turn 1 because they have great saves and most of his heavy support ships just focus on my chimeras as well as the venoms. The venoms really take a toll on my vehicles with the units inside that have blasters.
Basically he gets in extremely close and then will usually be assaulting while he puts out a lot of fire power with his whole army practically at full strength.
Is it better to go mech or infantry based. If I go mech I won't have the ignores cover orders. But if I go mech I will have the support of some chimeras.
I could always go with infantry based list and have like 3 chimeras in support.
I am still pretty against hws as 1 s6+shot usually kills a whole base and forces a ld check.
tankboy145 wrote: Yea my problem is that they are great at shooting and turn 1 they usually will have a 3+ save with night fighting. 4 for jinking, and +1 for night fight(usually)
The wyches usually get in full strength to assault turn 1 because they have great saves and most of his heavy support ships just focus on my chimeras as well as the venoms. The venoms really take a toll on my vehicles with the units inside that have blasters.
Basically he gets in extremely close and then will usually be assaulting while he puts out a lot of fire power with his whole army practically at full strength.
Is it better to go mech or infantry based. If I go mech I won't have the ignores cover orders. But if I go mech I will have the support of some chimeras.
I could always go with infantry based list and have like 3 chimeras in support.
I am still pretty against hws as 1 s6+shot usually kills a whole base and forces a ld check.
Wyches have great saves? Their 4+ invul save is only in close combat. Otherwise they only have a 6+ armor save, and if they have a pain token a 5+ FNP.
I didn't mean the wyches exactly but their transports usually having a 3+ cover means the wyches are getting to my lines and assaulting at full strength.
So what are key units to run against de, is blob better or mech better? Or is msu infantry/vets on foot best. I typically will always use 2 russes or so. Should I usually deploy my army close together or space everything out?
Any comments are much appreciated.
Also I know the new de codex comes out in like a weeks or 2 but I don't think much will change between how they are now and with the new dex.
tankboy145 wrote: So what are key units to run against de, is blob better or mech better? Or is msu infantry/vets on foot best. I typically will always use 2 russes or so. Should I usually deploy my army close together or space everything out?
Any comments are much appreciated.
Also I know the new de codex comes out in like a weeks or 2 but I don't think much will change between how they are now and with the new dex.
Mech is best, their anti-tank is mostly limited to 36" S8 lance, so AV12 spam will do the trick. Vets with autocannons and heavy flamers will be able to target their vehicles and infantry, chimera and sentinel multilasers will do the same. When they get close, drive right up and flame their infantry and/or transports from the top hatch with your vets.
Deploy spread out, you don't want wyches moving from one assault to the next or warriors unleashing torrents of splinter rifle fire each turn.
As a long time DE player and new AM player, the thing that I worry about the most with guard are Wyverns, AV 12 spam, high volume S 5-6 weapons, and flame templates. Honestly, there is almost nothing in the DE army that will have a harder time taking out AV 12 than AV 14, so I like seeing Russes. Lascannons are dangerous, but they are generally on BS 3 platforms and I still get a jink or flickerfield save. A heavy bolter is just as dangerous. One thing is that a MAJOR power in the DE codex is trueborn with blasters, but they only have an 18" range. Worst thing the guard can do to DEIMO is take a promethium pipe relay and have a bunch of flamers/heavy flamers. In my opinion, guard and serpent spam are the worst DE matchups because of all the AV 12, but the promethium relay is adding insult to injury.
So is it better to go with hull heavy flamer and turret multi laser or is there a better combo. And I assume vets with 2 melta or plasma and a single heavy flamer is a pretty solid choice as well?
Aside from that I will try to squeeze a squadron of armored sentinels with autocannons in the list and a couple of russes(usually all of my lists will include 2 or so russes).
tankboy145 wrote: So is it better to go with hull heavy flamer and turret multi laser or is there a better combo. And I assume vets with 2 melta or plasma and a single heavy flamer is a pretty solid choice as well?
Aside from that I will try to squeeze a squadron of armored sentinels with autocannons in the list and a couple of russes(usually all of my lists will include 2 or so russes).
I would keep the hull heavy bolters. The vet's heavy flamer is better because it can overwatch and has a 12" (chimera move+disembark) threat range, while the chimera only has 6" threat range, which is only real useful against a unit that failed to bust the chimera in cc. I like the 2 plasma + heavy flamer load out on vets for the better range, rapid fire, and because I'm not disembarking those guys to face splinter rifle fire unless that heavy flamer is ready to wreck house.
tankboy145 wrote: So is it better to go with hull heavy flamer and turret multi laser or is there a better combo. And I assume vets with 2 melta or plasma and a single heavy flamer is a pretty solid choice as well?
Aside from that I will try to squeeze a squadron of armored sentinels with autocannons in the list and a couple of russes(usually all of my lists will include 2 or so russes).
I would keep the hull heavy bolters. The vet's heavy flamer is better because it can overwatch and has a 12" (chimera move+disembark) threat range, while the chimera only has 6" threat range, which is only real useful against a unit that failed to bust the chimera in cc. I like the 2 plasma + heavy flamer load out on vets for the better range, rapid fire, and because I'm not disembarking those guys to face splinter rifle fire unless that heavy flamer is ready to wreck house.
Plus if anyone assaults your chimera you get to overwatch with the HF, its a win win and i have been using this set up a lot with plasma and melta vets to make them more versatile
Blob Guard would probably have to work pretty hard to deal with DE, but armored/mechanized would probably chew them up pretty reliably.
CCS in a Chimera
Tank Commander in a Punisher and maybe a Eradicator buddy.
Vets in Chimeras with special weapons and a heavy flamer.
Couple Wyverns to eat anything not riding in a transport.
By and large this handles most, if not all of what DE can field. Naturally, you want to avoid charges and melee, but with the number of weapons a Guard list can field, DE should be getting shredded once they're in range.
Frankenberry wrote: Blob Guard would probably have to work pretty hard to deal with DE, but armored/mechanized would probably chew them up pretty reliably.
CCS in a Chimera
Tank Commander in a Punisher and maybe a Eradicator buddy.
Vets in Chimeras with special weapons and a heavy flamer.
Couple Wyverns to eat anything not riding in a transport.
By and large this handles most, if not all of what DE can field. Naturally, you want to avoid charges and melee, but with the number of weapons a Guard list can field, DE should be getting shredded once they're in range.
What would the purpose of the CCS be? If all the vets are in chimeras wouldnt orders be wasted which is pretty much one of the only reasons you want to take a CCS for.
Also I appreciate all the comments I have a general idea of how I should play against de now and these lists seem to have pretty good flexibility in handling other codexs. I will probably bring this de topic up again soon as they are getting a new codex in 2 weeks and will probably have new stuff that we will have to learn to deal with.
What would the purpose of the CCS be? If all the vets are in chimeras wouldnt orders be wasted which is pretty much one of the only reasons you want to take a CCS for.
Also I appreciate all the comments I have a general idea of how I should play against de now and these lists seem to have pretty good flexibility in handling other codexs. I will probably bring this de topic up again soon as they are getting a new codex in 2 weeks and will probably have new stuff that we will have to learn to deal with.
He's a slightly cheaper vet squad you can have order people who have been blown out of their chimeras. Also, he's a slightly cheaper vet squad, so special weapons. Finally, if there's something worth you getting an order on, you can dump a squad of vets out as a sacrificial lamb to increase the killing power.
Desubot wrote: Or you can dump your CCS with a Moo out behind LOS blocking something and ignore cover bomb things at the minimum.
Also a cheep astropath.
Yup. A CCS in a chimera is indistinguishable from a vet squad, except the CCS can get astropaths and MOO. Orders are less useful in an armored list, but you'll still get a couple in towards the end of the game. It's also good for Get Back in the Fight when units get pinned after their transports are destroyed.
I'm wondering about mixing the tactics. Have a few melta/plasma vets in chimera, have some LR in the back, bubblewrap them in blobs, and some of those blobs would be combined to form big wound HWSs. Maybe add some psyker for prescience and a few command squad for orders. Can that work?
The only thing is only a "few" melta/plasma vets in chimeras usually means a smaller number and results in them not leaving the deployment zone because most of your opponents anti armor weapons will focus them. To be honest 3 or less chimeras is too few. 4 is a pretty solid amount especially with some russes. But then blobs get very expenisive just to be run decently.
Tbh 3 Chimeras is perfectly acceptable at 1500 points to 2000 depending on what the rest of your list looks like. If you have a lot of other vehicles like artillery and tanks then your opponent will have to deal with target saturation.
ultimentra wrote: Tbh 3 Chimeras is perfectly acceptable at 1500 points to 2000 depending on what the rest of your list looks like. If you have a lot of other vehicles like artillery and tanks then your opponent will have to deal with target saturation.
Oh yes at 1500 is fine but once you get close to 2k you really will want more troops.
Also that few would work well in a mech army but the post before talked about incorporating blobs. Which will take away the amount of vehicles you will have.
Do you guys feel the aegis defence line if necessary when running blobs? Im going to run 3 blob squads this weekend, two shooty and one CC. Ill be running yarrick and a priest, I know the cover save is nice, but im going to try to advance all the blobs up the table this time.
Nashole211 wrote: Do you guys feel the aegis defence line if necessary when running blobs? Im going to run 3 blob squads this weekend, two shooty and one CC. Ill be running yarrick and a priest, I know the cover save is nice, but im going to try to advance all the blobs up the table this time.
Aegis' are great for anything you have in a list that is going to remain static, or mostly static throughout the game; Hydras, Wyverns, Basilisks, Manticores, Deathstrikes, or a CCS fitted with cloaks, sniper rifles,a MoO and Astropath.
Blobs are meant to be swarms that weigh things down in bodies and firepower, having an Aegis will only slow them down and even then the defense gained by having them hide behind one is negligible.
Truthfully, I can't find a way to run blobs with a reliable turnout. Every time I build a list around them, I run out of points before I can start really rounding out my army, I guess I might be overdoing the blob loadout or something. Has anyone run blob Guard successfully?
I have played blobs a lot. I usually play 2 platoons of 2 30 man And 2 20 man squads. Sargents have meltabombs 1 platoon lascannon and plasma gun heavy and 1 platoon auto cannon and
Plasmagun heavy. I usually use them with yarik due to his warlord trait with priests
If your going gunline then sure go with a defense line but otherwise if you have advancing blobs I wouldnt bother with the line. It will only slow them down and you want them moving as fast as possible or they will get shot up too mmuch before they get to their target.
When considering blobs I look at it like this; basically I need to have a unit that is worth fielding, but I have to be careful not to break the bank when I outfit it. The thing is, for a blob to be effective (in my mind), Sergeants need power axes and melta bombs, every squad needs a melta gun, the whole thing is led by a commissar with a power weapon and a priest rounds out things. Generally that means at least 30 guys, maybe 40 and sometimes 50 if I can spare the points and the problem with all that is it becomes insanely expensive for what is essentially a unit I'm going to throw away.
Now, I'm not saying blobs are worthless or anything, but maybe I'm looking at this from a too much of a one-way-or-the-highway type of view. Perhaps I'd be better suited going the more shooting-oriented route that I see so many times in IG foot lists these days.
Aside from the 'give them all the guns' build I've seen has anyone run a blob with melee more in mind like in the days of 5th/6th?
Frankenberry wrote: When considering blobs I look at it like this; basically I need to have a unit that is worth fielding, but I have to be careful not to break the bank when I outfit it. The thing is, for a blob to be effective (in my mind), Sergeants need power axes and melta bombs, every squad needs a melta gun, the whole thing is led by a commissar with a power weapon and a priest rounds out things. Generally that means at least 30 guys, maybe 40 and sometimes 50 if I can spare the points and the problem with all that is it becomes insanely expensive for what is essentially a unit I'm going to throw away.
Now, I'm not saying blobs are worthless or anything, but maybe I'm looking at this from a too much of a one-way-or-the-highway type of view. Perhaps I'd be better suited going the more shooting-oriented route that I see so many times in IG foot lists these days.
Aside from the 'give them all the guns' build I've seen has anyone run a blob with melee more in mind like in the days of 5th/6th?
I don't get why are you buying power weapons for everyone. It costs insane amounts of points for unit that can hardly use them. IG stats are awful for CC, I3, WS3 (with current CC to hit table WS doesn't count that much as anything else), S3. Your sergeants will be dead before they have any chance to hit - pretty much everybody will hit before them, they challenge him, and kill him easily before they can even swing that overpriced power weapon of theirs. A melta bomb maybe, so each of your blobs has a chance to kill a vehicle, that may make your opponent to think twice, but pretty much that's it.
Adding both special weapon and heavy weapon to a blob seems like breaking synergy to me. Lascannon/Autocannon is long range and can't move while Plasma/Melta gun is short range with move. You'll likely be stationary more than moving around, but that melta gun seems like wasted point to me.
Frankenberry wrote: When considering blobs I look at it like this; basically I need to have a unit that is worth fielding, but I have to be careful not to break the bank when I outfit it. The thing is, for a blob to be effective (in my mind), Sergeants need power axes and melta bombs, every squad needs a melta gun, the whole thing is led by a commissar with a power weapon and a priest rounds out things. Generally that means at least 30 guys, maybe 40 and sometimes 50 if I can spare the points and the problem with all that is it becomes insanely expensive for what is essentially a unit I'm going to throw away.
Now, I'm not saying blobs are worthless or anything, but maybe I'm looking at this from a too much of a one-way-or-the-highway type of view. Perhaps I'd be better suited going the more shooting-oriented route that I see so many times in IG foot lists these days.
Aside from the 'give them all the guns' build I've seen has anyone run a blob with melee more in mind like in the days of 5th/6th?
I don't get why are you buying power weapons for everyone. It costs insane amounts of points for unit that can hardly use them. IG stats are awful for CC, I3, WS3 (with current CC to hit table WS doesn't count that much as anything else), S3. Your sergeants will be dead before they have any chance to hit - pretty much everybody will hit before them, they challenge him, and kill him easily before they can even swing that overpriced power weapon of theirs. A melta bomb maybe, so each of your blobs has a chance to kill a vehicle, that may make your opponent to think twice, but pretty much that's it.
Adding both special weapon and heavy weapon to a blob seems like breaking synergy to me. Lascannon/Autocannon is long range and can't move while Plasma/Melta gun is short range with move. You'll likely be stationary more than moving around, but that melta gun seems like wasted point to me.
Ok reply to post via list format because I'm tired:
1 - The points cost is insane, I cry when I look at power weapon prices.
2 - Yup, they're awful. But Str5 ap2 eats terminators every day. With their trooper meatshield around them. I might lose a sergeant to a challenge, but the rest of them will be free to kill whatever they want.
3 - Melta bombs are cheap so I figure why not, but I shouldn't be using troopers to kill tanks. That's why I have my Russes.
4 - Heavy weapons are a waste for a blob, in my opinion. It should be moving and assaulting, not using three to five autocannons to shoot at things. Hence the melta guns, on a decent level of shooting that some dead elites.
I would have to agree over time and experience I have decided not to use power weapons as the sergeants get sniped or challenged out. If that they may not strike because to many guardsmen were killed. If I want a guard blob to be assaulting I will just weigh them down with standard attacks and let the big guns take care of armor. I usually do either give the squad krak nades or melta bombs on sergeants. I havent decided whats better of a choice. Walkers and monstrous creatures are common in my meta so nades are somewhat important to have so a whole blob doesnt get tied up by one big model.
1 - The points cost is insane, I cry when I look at power weapon prices.
2 - Yup, they're awful. But Str5 ap2 eats terminators every day. With their trooper meatshield around them. I might lose a sergeant to a challenge, but the rest of them will be free to kill whatever they want.
3 - Melta bombs are cheap so I figure why not, but I shouldn't be using troopers to kill tanks. That's why I have my Russes.
4 - Heavy weapons are a waste for a blob, in my opinion. It should be moving and assaulting, not using three to five autocannons to shoot at things. Hence the melta guns, on a decent level of shooting that some dead elites.
I think the best way to kill termies is either Plasma russ - 5 Heavy plasma blast is bad news for any squad of terminators, or insane amounts of dice of anything. If terminators happen to deep strike close to your russes/blobs, you can rapid fire and FRFSRF them, which eventually grind through any save. Same for gatling, Heavy 20 is good for infantry, either with Paskrending or without it. While having a few S5AP2 CC hits seems too situational and fragile to me. You need to get to cc with your sergeant, you need to survive I4 (and all others), you need to hit him with puny WS3. Too many conditions.
Melta bombs are pretty cheap and threatening to anything that's vehicle. I'm still looking for the anti-tank LR, care to share? Other than LC/MM to anything. Gatling Pask is good anti-air/AV12 though.
A blob of 3 lascannons with prescience and ignore cover order can be pretty deadly. I1m more for shooty blob than assault. But still interested in the proper assault builds too. Have some ideas on that?
Alright so heres a list I play tested against some GK with imperial knight allies. It was a pretty good game granted my opponent shorted himself 315 odd points. probably would have been a lot closer. I ended up wining by leaving him with one purifier squad and his hq left.
Also I did revise this list originally I had a squad of 2 armored sentinels with autocannons and a CCS with 4 plasma guns in a chimera.
2k list
HQ
Punisher-Pask/LC/MM Executioner-PC's
Vanquisher-TC/LC LRBT
x3 Vet squads each with chimera/dozer/x2 plasma guns/ Heavy flamer/krak nades
x2 Vet kitted the same as above except with x2 melta instead of plasma
x2 Wyverns squaded together
Vendetta
Now I have 70 points left. I am planning on throwing down a defense line so that turn one all my units can get a cover save. Chimeras have dozers so they can drive right over when the enemy gets close and then they can go to grab objectives. Remaining points could go to pasks squad and give them dozers as well.
I will also post this army in the army lists section.
Going to be rematching my friends Space Wolves after they chopped me to pieces last time. At 1500 points what would you suggest using against such a powerful shooting and cc type army? Especially what can I use against his cavalry.... I know that Conscripts are not the correct answer.
Gamerely wrote: Going to be rematching my friends Space Wolves after they chopped me to pieces last time. At 1500 points what would you suggest using against such a powerful shooting and cc type army? Especially what can I use against his cavalry.... I know that Conscripts are not the correct answer.
So has anyone found a pretty good solid list for guard at all? Are the winning lists leaning more towards mech or foot guard lists, or a mix of both. From my personal experience pask in a punisher has been the center piece for my army greatly and has really benefited in a mobile list with mech vets and wyverns.
Has anyone found anything good with blobs, that dont rely to much on allies?
tankboy145 wrote: So has anyone found a pretty good solid list for guard at all? Are the winning lists leaning more towards mech or foot guard lists, or a mix of both. From my personal experience pask in a punisher has been the center piece for my army greatly and has really benefited in a mobile list with mech vets and wyverns.
Has anyone found anything good with blobs, that dont rely to much on allies?
What I've found IG/AM mostly have problems with being mobile and get to objectives quickly. It has a pretty nice dakka and armor, some say it can be even good in CC.
That is the same situation I have found the army to be. The army playing foot guard or blob guard is very deadly as most armies can't even do enough damage to cripple these lists. But the problem is foot guard lists struggle at moving around and grabbing objectives in maelstrom missions. Then if you go mech guard you're mobile but you struggle with having ignores cover to take out skimmers and most of the time vets in chimeras aren't putting out a lot of killing firepower. The chimera can fire off plenty of s6-5 wounds but from inside the transport most of the time your only getting 1-2 plasma or melta shots off.
tankboy145 wrote: That is the same situation I have found the army to be. The army playing foot guard or blob guard is very deadly as most armies can't even do enough damage to cripple these lists. But the problem is foot guard lists struggle at moving around and grabbing objectives in maelstrom missions. Then if you go mech guard you're mobile but you struggle with having ignores cover to take out skimmers and most of the time vets in chimeras aren't putting out a lot of killing firepower. The chimera can fire off plenty of s6-5 wounds but from inside the transport most of the time your only getting 1-2 plasma or melta shots off.
So if we have a solid army that only lacks objective grabbing, we only need to add that to the army. Need to find some cost effective objective grabbers and we are fine.
tankboy145 wrote: That is the same situation I have found the army to be. The army playing foot guard or blob guard is very deadly as most armies can't even do enough damage to cripple these lists. But the problem is foot guard lists struggle at moving around and grabbing objectives in maelstrom missions. Then if you go mech guard you're mobile but you struggle with having ignores cover to take out skimmers and most of the time vets in chimeras aren't putting out a lot of killing firepower. The chimera can fire off plenty of s6-5 wounds but from inside the transport most of the time your only getting 1-2 plasma or melta shots off.
So if we have a solid army that only lacks objective grabbing, we only need to add that to the army. Need to find some cost effective objective grabbers and we are fine.
Naked rough riders in reserve or scout sentinels are decent options for cheap. A reserved hellhound could be good since he can move+turbo 24" but it's a pricey choice for an objective grabber.
Also i like the idea of scout sentinels for backfield hijinks being able to put auto cannons on side or rear armor or dumping wounds at a decently long range which helps mitigate coming in on the wrong edge.
FW's Knights are slowly eating away at my willpower, and I'm curious if anyone has any experiences running IG as a compliment to the stompy death robots.
Also i like the idea of scout sentinels for backfield hijinks being able to put auto cannons on side or rear armor or dumping wounds at a decently long range which helps mitigate coming in on the wrong edge.
Hey, 55 points for moving 12" isn't bad. Just start them in reserve.
FW's Knights are slowly eating away at my willpower, and I'm curious if anyone has any experiences running IG as a compliment to the stompy death robots.
I've seen Knights in play and they seem to only work in lists that can keep up with it. Otherwise your opponent will flank the night and hit its sides that don't have an ion shield.
Also i like the idea of scout sentinels for backfield hijinks being able to put auto cannons on side or rear armor or dumping wounds at a decently long range which helps mitigate coming in on the wrong edge.
Only problem I've noticed with scout sentinels is that bolters will glance them to death.
Well we need to make sure bolters arent shooting them then. Scout Sentinels (and Sentinels in general) can be best described as oppurtunistic bullies, picking on targets smaller and weaker than themselves. Rear armor shots, Lone Autatchs jetbike squads, Kroot (in mellee), remnants of ther units all are fair geme. Armoured Sents can falso function as tarpits for a while. Just don't give them Plasma Cannons.
FW's Knights are slowly eating away at my willpower, and I'm curious if anyone has any experiences running IG as a compliment to the stompy death robots.
I've seen Knights in play and they seem to only work in lists that can keep up with it. Otherwise your opponent will flank the night and hit its sides that don't have an ion shield.
Also i like the idea of scout sentinels for backfield hijinks being able to put auto cannons on side or rear armor or dumping wounds at a decently long range which helps mitigate coming in on the wrong edge.
Only problem I've noticed with scout sentinels is that bolters will glance them to death.
Eh, only 1/9 bolter shots will glance, and with that perspective you'd never run chimeras either. The open-topped doesn't hurt against glances. If my opponent is wasting a round of shooting on a 35 point sentinel, I'm fine with that. Sentinels are good at flanking because they can move without losing firepower and have 36"-48" range which lets them hit pretty much anything on most of the table. They're good at contesting backfield objectives, especially since non-gunline armies rarely deploy objective secured troops choices back there.
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konst80hummel wrote: Well we need to make sure bolters arent shooting them then. Scout Sentinels (and Sentinels in general) can be best described as oppurtunistic bullies, picking on targets smaller and weaker than themselves. Rear armor shots, Lone Autatchs jetbike squads, Kroot (in mellee), remnants of ther units all are fair geme. Armoured Sents can falso function as tarpits for a while. Just don't give them Plasma Cannons.
Charge a unit of 30 termagaunts and your opponent needs to waste a turn charging his Hive Tyrant in there, works every time.
On the subject of stormtroopers from a page or two back, I've had a lot of fun with them. I run three melta vet chimeras in my list, one of which is a CCS with an auger. When they get where they're going they've got six meltas aimed at what I want to die. With good reserve rolls I drop down a ten man st squad with two plasma guns and a command squad with two melta.
They can then receive orders from the CCS which when coupled with the vets reliably erases most targets.
FW's Knights are slowly eating away at my willpower, and I'm curious if anyone has any experiences running IG as a compliment to the stompy death robots.
I've seen Knights in play and they seem to only work in lists that can keep up with it. Otherwise your opponent will flank the night and hit its sides that don't have an ion shield.
Also i like the idea of scout sentinels for backfield hijinks being able to put auto cannons on side or rear armor or dumping wounds at a decently long range which helps mitigate coming in on the wrong edge.
Only problem I've noticed with scout sentinels is that bolters will glance them to death.
Eh, only 1/9 bolter shots will glance, and with that perspective you'd never run chimeras either. The open-topped doesn't hurt against glances. If my opponent is wasting a round of shooting on a 35 point sentinel, I'm fine with that. Sentinels are good at flanking because they can move without losing firepower and have 36"-48" range which lets them hit pretty much anything on most of the table. They're good at contesting backfield objectives, especially since non-gunline armies rarely deploy objective secured troops choices back there.
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konst80hummel wrote: Well we need to make sure bolters arent shooting them then. Scout Sentinels (and Sentinels in general) can be best described as oppurtunistic bullies, picking on targets smaller and weaker than themselves. Rear armor shots, Lone Autatchs jetbike squads, Kroot (in mellee), remnants of ther units all are fair geme. Armoured Sents can falso function as tarpits for a while. Just don't give them Plasma Cannons.
Charge a unit of 30 termagaunts and your opponent needs to waste a turn charging his Hive Tyrant in there, works every time.
The argument about chimeras is no where near the same. Chimeras are one of 2 dedicated transports and the chimera also counts as a troops choice if taken for troops obviously.
Also because at a distance av12 front is also easier to protect. But if you already give up your front 12 then your opponent doesn't have to try and flank your vehicles. Especially if you have multiple vehicles in line.
Not to mention if you only present 12+ armor to your opponents then his weaker weapons between s4-6 can now be fired at the scouts.
I'm not saying they are bad but I would almost rather have 12 front armor for 5more points.
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Las wrote: On the subject of stormtroopers from a page or two back, I've had a lot of fun with them. I run three melta vet chimeras in my list, one of which is a CCS with an auger. When they get where they're going they've got six meltas aimed at what I want to die. With good reserve rolls I drop down a ten man st squad with two plasma guns and a command squad with two melta.
They can then receive orders from the CCS which when coupled with the vets reliably erases most targets.
Also the auger idea is interesting but have you thought about allied scions with their book so you have objective secured troops deepstriking? They also seem to have better orders.
Las wrote: Yeah it would be interesting but feth buying that book so much
do you really have to buy the book? They have all the same stats and equipment. And all you need to do is get someone to tell you the orders from that book.
2 - Yup, they're awful. But Str5 ap2 eats terminators every day. With their trooper meatshield around them. I might lose a sergeant to a challenge, but the rest of them will be free to kill whatever they want.
s4 ap2. It adds 1 str for a s3 guy.
But let's count.
Spoiler:
Space marine librarian/veteran - 3 s5 ap2 attacks - usually 3+ to hit but sometimes 4+ and 5+ when he gets blinded or 6+ when tries to kill someone invisible:
3+ to hit vs t4: 1.33 wounds
3+ to hit vs t5: 1 wound
3+ to hit vs t6: 0.67 wounds
4+ to hit vs t4: 1 wound
4+ to hit vs t5: 0.75 wound
4+ to hit vs t6: 0.5 wounds
5+ to hit vs t4: 0.67 wounds
5+ to hit vs t5: 0.5 wounds
5+ to hit vs t6: 0.33 wounds
6+ to hit vs t4: 0.33 wounds
6+ to hit vs t5: 0.25 wounds
6+ to hit vs t6: 0.17 wounds
Now your lowly power axe sergeant with priest's reroll:
3+ to hit - won't even bother with this
4+ to hit vs t4: 1.12 wounds
4+ to hit vs t5: 0.75 wounds
4+ to hit vs t6: 0.375 wounds
5+ to hit vs t4: 0.83 wounds
5+ to hit vs t5: 0.56 wounds
5+ to hit vs t6: 0.28 wounds
6+ to hit vs t4: 0.45 wounds
6+ to hit vs t5: 0.3 wounds
6+ to hit vs t6: 0.15 wounds
And suddenly, your average power axe sarge is on par with space marine veterans. But better due to more sarges in the squad who will eat challenges.
Not once have i seen space marine bikers being massacred by ig blobs thanks to priests and power axes.
So I plan on building a list. 1850-2k In the list I want to use russes to lead a slow charge and then have foot guard advance up with it. How should I go about building this list? Should I stick with pask in a punisher with an executioner buddy or not because they will most likely be in the front. What other russ variants should I use?
How should my infantry be, MSU's or blobs? I want to avoid power weapons on the guardsmen as none of mine have them and I play more towards wysiwyg.
if tanks are opening the charge, be very VERY careful for assault unit; a mob o' boyz can charge your Russ, face no overwatch and get to attack that vulnerable AV 10 rear armour. The usual gimmic is to use your guardsmen as a shield or bubble wrap so if a melee unit shows itself within range, it will have to deal with the guardsmen first.
As for MSU or blobs..either/or in my case; I use MSU, mostly because I only got a wooping total of 4 complete infantry squads but 10 men are quite thin to shield a tank..so perhaps go with a 20 man blob, perhaps get Commissars in there to give them decent Ld and stubborn
Oh sorry I forgot to mention, it will probably start off with the russes leading but once assault units get close I will have the infantry spring forward and block for the russes. That will also be the situation if deepstike or drop pod units are being played against. I might try to do a mix of the units and try to get some 30man blobs as well as some msu's. I think I might stick with a TC as a vanquisher with a LRBT as his buddy and then have 2 other LRBT's on each side of them. My last heavy slot will be a squad of 2 wyverns to help keep assaulting units at bay. I plan on then including a vendetta for air support and then I might look into 2 squads of 5 scions with 2 meltas each to try and pop heavy armor right away. Otherwise I just need to figure out how to equip my infantry.
tankboy145 wrote: So I plan on building a list. 1850-2k In the list I want to use russes to lead a slow charge and then have foot guard advance up with it. How should I go about building this list? Should I stick with pask in a punisher with an executioner buddy or not because they will most likely be in the front. What other russ variants should I use?
How should my infantry be, MSU's or blobs? I want to avoid power weapons on the guardsmen as none of mine have them and I play more towards wysiwyg.
Sounds like that scene from Fury (awesome and action packed )
Id say if it isnt going to be pask leading the charge, probably best to keep it cheap or make them bolter boats with the nova or auto cannons. side sponsons should give you extra cover. if all else you could make the TC a Vanquisher with multi melta and las so you could splitfire down some transports.
tankboy145 wrote: So I plan on building a list. 1850-2k In the list I want to use russes to lead a slow charge and then have foot guard advance up with it. How should I go about building this list? Should I stick with pask in a punisher with an executioner buddy or not because they will most likely be in the front. What other russ variants should I use?
How should my infantry be, MSU's or blobs? I want to avoid power weapons on the guardsmen as none of mine have them and I play more towards wysiwyg.
Sounds like that scene from Fury (awesome and action packed )
Id say if it isnt going to be pask leading the charge, probably best to keep it cheap or make them bolter boats with the nova or auto cannons. side sponsons should give you extra cover. if all else you could make the TC a Vanquisher with multi melta and las so you could splitfire down some transports.
That scene was my inspiration lol
I will also post the list in the army list section but basically I have:
Tank commander-vanquisher, hull lascannon
LRBT buddy
Ccs-vox, standard, OoF
x2 pcs's-vox for each.
x2 blobs each with 3 PIS's, 3 plasma guns, 1 vox per blob. Priest, and lvl 2 primaris psyker.
20conscripts with priest.
Sws- 3 snipers
Scions-2 melta
Scions- 2 melta
Vendetta
x2 wyverns
LRBT LRBT
Idea for the list is to have the vanquisher and his battle tank in the center with his battle tank slightly forward on his left or right depending on how the enemy deploys. Then i will have one LRBT on the left of the command squadron and one to the right. If there are deepstrike or pod units that can hurt the russes conscripts will be infront to give cover. Each blob will be in the rear following waiting to get close enough to the enemy for rapid fire. Until then the primaris will be twinlinking the russes. Any infantry that can assault the russes will be barraged by the wyverns since you don't consolidate when destroying a vehicle. Vendetta is air support as well as anti air. Scions eliminate transports and heavy armor.
I feel the plasma guns might be of a bit of waste in the blobs. especially if they get caught in assault. I rather see them blank or with flamers maybe to keep em cheaper. and perhaps add another scion or a scion command squad with pllllaasssmmmaaas to take out the elite threat that might screw over the list.
As well you could chuck something fun on the special weapon squad and grav out of the vendetta instead of just using them as snipers.
The tanks really dont matter as much.
Edit: Also give the blobs some kinda grenades/melta bombs and a power weapons so they dont completely get bogged.
So has anyone found a unit that they just cannot live without. I know there was a lot of debate about the Wyvern, but my God that thing shines in almost every game I play.
I am also really enjoying demolitions on my vet squads... each with a melta bomb and a large blast S8 AP2 is very handy!
I am not a huge fan of the Vendetta, but I still use it for Anti-air... I do feel that the point cost increase a little too much. But I am sure there are a ton of a people that disagree. 150 would have been a heck of a lot more reasonable.
What are things that you do not leave home without? Just curious if I am missing some fun/neat/competitive combos?!
I've found that if you have the models, there is absolutely no reason not to take conscripts. Lately, I have always been taking 40 with a priest (of course), because that's a great 145 point unit for pretty much any opponent. Facing drop pod marines or some sort of other alpha strikey list? Use them to bubble wrap all your important stuff. Facing some sort of low-model count elite army or bikes? Turn your conscripts into a wave that marches forward and tarpits whatever they can get into combat with first. With the priest songs, they will chew threw even good dedicated CC units. And, they can just be generally used as a good space-eater on the board -- forcing your opponent to alter the paths of flyers or getting in the way of them reaching objectives. I've also been throwing in an inquisitor with the liber heresius, which gives them a scout move and counter attack on some turn during the game.
The only drawback to conscripts is that you have to essentially buy them with a PCS and 2 infantry squads. But, you can find uses for both of them. I like either putting the PCS in a chimera to follow behind the conscripts and give them orders along their way or put them in a vendetta to serve as a suicide melta squad later in the game.
The infantry squads are a bit harder to find good purposes for. You can give them a couple of heavy weapons and deck chair them in your backfield as a much more survivable HWS with one less weapon. But the last couple of games I've gone fully mech other than the conscripts and put the two infantry squads in chimeras with a plasma gun and a melta bomb. I've also run games with a conscript blob meant to get into CC with inquisitor buffs like the funky grenades and LH, and a guardsmen blob with plasma and a psyker of some sort giving them prescience. That's also worked reasonably well.
Actually i find that Conscripts dont do well against dedicated CC unites without some kinda invul. generally they last maybe 2-3 turns then die (which isnt bad) but they wont be going tooo toe to toe. but add a 4++ forewarning invul and they get nuts.
but the rest stands.
But they will hold off a DP like no ones business (unless blackmace which makes me sadface.)
Desubot wrote: Actually i find that Conscripts dont do well against dedicated CC unites without some kinda invul. generally they last maybe 2-3 turns then die (which isnt bad) but they wont be going tooo toe to toe. but add a 4++ forewarning invul and they get nuts.
but the rest stands.
But they will hold off a DP like no ones business (unless blackmace which makes me sadface.)
But consider that those conscripts and their priest only cost around 85-115 points, which is way less than whatever assault or monstrous creature you throw them against. Your enemy will often have to redirect another unit to help clear them off, seriously hampering their game plan. Conscripts are decent at swarming units on the attack, they positively excel at blunting enemy attacks, holding objectives, and protecting flanks.
I have always steered clear of a lot of troops. In an 1850 game we will time it for 2.5 hours. I am always just concerned about moving all of those troops. Do you guys have any issues with that?
Desubot wrote: Actually i find that Conscripts dont do well against dedicated CC unites without some kinda invul. generally they last maybe 2-3 turns then die (which isnt bad) but they wont be going tooo toe to toe. but add a 4++ forewarning invul and they get nuts.
but the rest stands.
But they will hold off a DP like no ones business (unless blackmace which makes me sadface.)
But consider that those conscripts and their priest only cost around 85-115 points, which is way less than whatever assault or monstrous creature you throw them against. Your enemy will often have to redirect another unit to help clear them off, seriously hampering their game plan. Conscripts are decent at swarming units on the attack, they positively excel at blunting enemy attacks, holding objectives, and protecting flanks.
I know. just stating that they wont actually go toe to toe but are at best tarpits against stronger CC units without invul support.
Desubot wrote: I feel the plasma guns might be of a bit of waste in the blobs. especially if they get caught in assault. I rather see them blank or with flamers maybe to keep em cheaper. and perhaps add another scion or a scion command squad with pllllaasssmmmaaas to take out the elite threat that might screw over the list.
As well you could chuck something fun on the special weapon squad and grav out of the vendetta instead of just using them as snipers.
The tanks really dont matter as much.
Edit: Also give the blobs some kinda grenades/melta bombs and a power weapons so they dont completely get bogged.
Yea I will probably swap the plasma for flamers and hopefully kill the opponent with weight of fire against elite units. I will probably throw melta bombs on the sergeants.
Also aside from the wyverns staying back I figured the special weapon squad could also sit back on an objective. Its also another small unit that I can hide away on an objective that will take pot shots at big monstrous creatures.
What would you swap with the list right now to get a scion command squad with plasma guns? The list is 4 points from being 2k if points add up correctly.
Id start by stripping all the excessive stuff on your guys like the standards and vox off the PCS as they are the units that should probably stand waaaaay back perhaps even with snipers.
If the Infantry blob is going to always be blobed then only 1 vox for that unit is fine.
perhaps downgrade some LRBT to cheaper alternatives like Autocannons or the nova one.
Desubot wrote: Id start by stripping all the excessive stuff on your guys like the standards and vox off the PCS as they are the units that should probably stand waaaaay back perhaps even with snipers.
If the Infantry blob is going to always be blobed then only 1 vox for that unit is fine.
perhaps downgrade some LRBT to cheaper alternatives like Autocannons or the nova one.
PCS with four snipers and bring it down are always a good choice at 38 points.
Desubot wrote: Id start by stripping all the excessive stuff on your guys like the standards and vox off the PCS as they are the units that should probably stand waaaaay back perhaps even with snipers.
If the Infantry blob is going to always be blobed then only 1 vox for that unit is fine.
perhaps downgrade some LRBT to cheaper alternatives like Autocannons or the nova one.
Yea the standard could probably go since I have priests in the blobs, there is only 1 vox per blob already. But the pcs's probably could be left with snipers.
And I might drop a russ or two down to be an eradicator. I'm trying to keep as many blasts as possible so my opponent is forced to spread out.
Desubot wrote: Id start by stripping all the excessive stuff on your guys like the standards and vox off the PCS as they are the units that should probably stand waaaaay back perhaps even with snipers.
If the Infantry blob is going to always be blobed then only 1 vox for that unit is fine.
perhaps downgrade some LRBT to cheaper alternatives like Autocannons or the nova one.
PCS with four snipers and bring it down are always a good choice at 38 points.
PCS has BS3 and Bring it down is a senior officer command. So that 38 points need another 60 points to make them snipe MCs.
What are the good/competitive units for IG other than the ones in the codex? Froge world, formation in other books e.g. Steel host, etc?
Has anyone experience with Annihilator and Conqueror from IA1 2nd ed? That book was written before the 6th ed codex, so the prices are different than the codex ones. Are they useful?
what are the combos?
