I have seen similar posts for lots of other armies but not yet for GK so i wanted to try and launch it. The aim will be to see the main changes to the army on a whole and to each specific unit and then see what new tactics/lists become available : So i will start with the unit changes
1) HQ - GM and Captains : they took a boost as they can now get BrB psychic powers for nothing lost - Librarian : can take all psychic powers as well, can be lvl 3 - Brotherhood champion : even worse then before without his specific psychic power. - inquisitors : can be even better, cheap HQ, cheap Warp Charge, can have a null rod or psycholum which can become usefull - Draigo : much better then before with his new psychic powers, Draigowing can be nice again (with invisibility for instance) - Coteaz : even better then before as he brings the cheapest WC in the game (henchmen psyker) as troops - other inquisitors (Valeria and Karamasov) : still crappy - Mordrak : still usefull for a full shunting list but that is about it.
2) Elites : - purifiers : their new psychic power is really nice (awesome in some cases), in rhino with 2 psycanons they are really nice again as they can score, bring 2WC and psycanon which will still help to strip HP - paladins : they lost their psychic power but can score (and potentially super score with Draigo), with some psychic power they become really solid (invisibility, a priest for save rerolls in CC...) - assassins : the vindicare is about the same as before, good AT (harder to OS a vehicle but at least antigrav dont have a passive cover all the time anymore), the others are still bad - techmarine : apart from grenade carry not really usefull - henchmen : while shooting henchmen (servitors/jakiro with inquisitor for prescience/ignore cover in chimera/bastion) has taken a nerf, the psychers are not awesome
3) Troops - strike squad : not much changed - terminators : same, still bad (Thawn is good though)
4) Fast Attack - Stormraven : buffed, it is a bit stronger, has no more limit on the numer of missile it can send in a turn and the missile will be better with more psykers - interceptors : not much changed
5) Heavy support : - purgators : not sure what their use is now as they dont even have their power anymore. They can bring lots of psycanon while scoring now though (so better then classic GKSS) - Dreadknight : did not really change except that it will be able to receive more psychic buffs (invisible DK^^) and its MC opponents are weaker in CC (only 1A with smash) - Dread with psyautocanons : still nice, brings a WC, can score, a bit more solid then before, - Lanrd Raiders : more solid then before, and scoring
Anything i have missed? I am not sure yet what kind of competitive lists we will see, i think that purif, henchmen with psykers and Draigowing will be there a lot
Everyone that had warp quake lost it, which is big.
Librarian + Mordrak combo is expensive but great in a shunt list. Tailor your psychic tree choice to your enemy and do what you like, where you like turn one. Must support with shunters!
yeah i forgot about the global changes :
- warp quake lost everywhere
- you cant launch your cc psychic powers (hammerhand, force) on the opposent turn (so you need to prepare for cc more then before)
- vehicles cant ignore crew shaken/stunned results like before
- no more FaQ on falchions (so i guess its +2A?) that would make paladins with falchions and a standard quite nice in cc (5A each...6A on the charge)
Without warp rift, the mordrak bomb's focus is a bit different now. The build will need to change to one based around a tough CC unit (buffed via libby powers) rather than a drop and eliminate unit. Might consider hammers on some of the ghosts now. The other use for it is a mobile army-buffing unit; with limited range on some of the powers the libby will be in a prime position to cast blessings on your nearby dreadknights and interceptors.
Remember we actually have battle brothers now, too. There's an interesting selection of ICs to put into the Mordrak unit and I'm seriously considering someone like Tiggy to fish for crazy Biomancy powers for some key unit.
Draigo, some paladins and Endurance would be crazy, although still too points inefficient to be competitive.
Lanlaorn wrote: Remember we actually have battle brothers now, too. There's an interesting selection of ICs to put into the Mordrak unit and I'm seriously considering someone like Tiggy to fish for crazy Biomancy powers for some key unit.
Draigo, some paladins and Endurance would be crazy, although still too points inefficient to be competitive.
Tiggy, specifically, cannot do this for lack of the ability to deep strike.
Would Mindstrike Missiles be a solid counter to things like Seerstar, Beaststar or other psychic deathstars? 4 missiles should hopefully generate a good number of hits, and psi-shock just needs a hit, not a wound, to cause Perils, which then could only be avoided by FNP, completely bypassing Fortune. Granted you could wind up giving a model a 3++ for a turn, but I think it would be worth the risk. You couldn't target an invisible unit with the missiles, but hopefully with GK you'd have enough dispell dice to perhaps prevent that one from going off in the first place.
Just thinking of dropping Mindstrikes into a summoning farm makes me happy.
Though I believe you can not take FNP against perils
In 6E it was in the FAQ that you could, in 7th it explicitly says you can take a FNP against wounds that don't allow saves of any kind and specifically uses Perils as an example of such a wound. There is also an exception to that rule that states you cannot take a FNP against strength D weapons or wounds that cause Instant Death.
undertow wrote: Would Mindstrike Missiles be a solid counter to things like Seerstar, Beaststar or other psychic deathstars? 4 missiles should hopefully generate a good number of hits, and psi-shock just needs a hit, not a wound, to cause Perils, which then could only be avoided by FNP, completely bypassing Fortune. Granted you could wind up giving a model a 3++ for a turn, but I think it would be worth the risk. You couldn't target an invisible unit with the missiles, but hopefully with GK you'd have enough dispell dice to perhaps prevent that one from going off in the first place.
Just thinking of dropping Mindstrikes into a summoning farm makes me happy.
Why can't you target an invisible unit? Invisibility requires a 6 to hit, but that's it. Also, you can hit Flying Monstrous Creatures with Mindstrike Missiles, until GWFAQs it.
undertow wrote: Would Mindstrike Missiles be a solid counter to things like Seerstar, Beaststar or other psychic deathstars? 4 missiles should hopefully generate a good number of hits, and psi-shock just needs a hit, not a wound, to cause Perils, which then could only be avoided by FNP, completely bypassing Fortune. Granted you could wind up giving a model a 3++ for a turn, but I think it would be worth the risk. You couldn't target an invisible unit with the missiles, but hopefully with GK you'd have enough dispell dice to perhaps prevent that one from going off in the first place.
Just thinking of dropping Mindstrikes into a summoning farm makes me happy.
Why can't you target an invisible unit? Invisibility requires a 6 to hit, but that's it. Also, you can hit Flying Monstrous Creatures with Mindstrike Missiles, until GWFAQs it.
Youre missing the biggest change. Henchmen psykers can take brb powers, that means for 10 points I get a model that can manifest shriek and adds 1 WC to the pool. If you dont have a psyker in every henchman squad youre doing it wrong. (Also you can flat out a transport after manifesting a witchfire from a firepoint now.
Jakobokaj wrote: Youre missing the biggest change. Henchmen psykers can take brb powers, that means for 10 points I get a model that can manifest shriek and adds 1 WC to the pool. If you dont have a psyker in every henchman squad youre doing it wrong. (Also you can flat out a transport after manifesting a witchfire from a firepoint now.
A 10 point model who has the change of manifesting a strength D power
- Dreadknight : did not really change except that it will be able to receive more psychic buffs (invisible DK^^) and its MC opponents are weaker in CC (only 1A with smash)
Why are dreadknight MC opponents weaker? the DK is T6, most opposing MCs werent going to smash it anyway, as they are probably able to wound it on 4+ or something and which would have been better than halving their attacks to smash even in 6th.
What might change is walkers might become more powerful, as now nid and daemon MCs arent autokill vs walkers. If that happens, then having a DK around to counter walkers might be useful as they still pack native Str10.
undertow wrote: Would Mindstrike Missiles be a solid counter to things like Seerstar, Beaststar or other psychic deathstars? 4 missiles should hopefully generate a good number of hits, and psi-shock just needs a hit, not a wound, to cause Perils, which then could only be avoided by FNP, completely bypassing Fortune. Granted you could wind up giving a model a 3++ for a turn, but I think it would be worth the risk. You couldn't target an invisible unit with the missiles, but hopefully with GK you'd have enough dispell dice to perhaps prevent that one from going off in the first place.
Just thinking of dropping Mindstrikes into a summoning farm makes me happy.
Why can't you target an invisible unit? Invisibility requires a 6 to hit, but that's it. Also, you can hit Flying Monstrous Creatures with Mindstrike Missiles, until GWFAQs it.
SJ
You cant fire blasts as snap shots
you can if you have skyfire. At least until GW redoes their FAQs.
Because it isn't in the dex it was in the 6th edition FAQ. The 7th edition FAQ is pretty much empty besides the errata. One of the missing entries is the one for the Vindicare.
Because it isn't in the dex it was in the 6th edition FAQ. The 7th edition FAQ is pretty much empty besides the errata. One of the missing entries is the one for the Vindicare.
My digital codex still has that entry. Personally, I'd always check with my opponent, but I'd lean towards the old errata stand (unless updated in the new errata) and the old FAQs (which only clarified rules, and didn't change them) are still valid for rules that haven't changed. Ignoring all that is logical and valid, so as long as both parties agree, fine. There doesn't seem to be a general consensus though :(
Looks like the digital codexes will be updated in a month, so we'll see if the old errata stand. It'll be safer to assume about the old FAQs too then.
Play tested a few lower point games (normally around 1000) and so far I feel positive about our change. Granted my list making was for casual play and testing out the physic phase, BUT I feel confident enough to face most challenges. A silly list I used and actually had much success was the following:
Grand Master
-Psycannon
-Lvl 2 (just testing out the new powers)
Paladin x2
-Halberd
-Hammer
Solodin
-Hammer
Strike x5
-Psycannon
-Rhino
Strike x5
-Psycannon
-Rhino
Interceptor x5
-Psycannon
Interceptor x5
-Psycannon
Roughly 1000 points, might have missed some things.
But I faced almost all the dex's, except daemons and DE since we don't have any down here.
easysauce wrote: ummm... how? they have the same spell, are now BOP's, only contribute 1 MC per unit, but still the whole unit dies on perils...
? Out of the loop?
They don't have the same spell. They roll on tables. 10 points, one guy, in each henchmen squad gives you a warp charge and a rolled power plus the primaris power. Lots of psychic shrieking then and of course the chance that one or two in the army gets the shrouding spell or even invisibility.
Why does the whole unit die on perils? The rule book states only the psycher or in the case of BoP 1 randomly determined model, in the case of 2 henchmen and a psycher only the psycher would die still leaving 2 scrubs left.
easysauce wrote: didnt see they were on the list for rolling on powers,
derp
they are ok now i guess, better then before certainly
"Ok" is quite a understatment IMO. 10 points for a master level 1 psyker with 2 powers from some of the best psycic power tabels, and which are spamable, makes them great. 6 units of 3 henchmen with psyker in razorback with psyboltammo is 408 points. 12 units of objective secured and 12 warp charges. And a great warp charge generator for other psykers in the GK army.
easysauce wrote: didnt see they were on the list for rolling on powers,
derp
they are ok now i guess, better then before certainly
"Ok" is quite a understatment IMO. 10 points for a master level 1 psyker with 2 powers from some of the best psycic power tabels, and which are spamable, makes them great. 6 units of 3 henchmen with psyker in razorback with psyboltammo is 408 points. 12 units of objective secured and 12 warp charges. And a great warp charge generator for other psykers in the GK army.
I'm considering starting a GK army, what do people normally choose for the two other chumps? I haven't played a game with them yet, but so far in my list building I've been messing around with a 4 man group: 1 Psyker and 3 Servitors w/Heavy Bolters. It seems like a fair amount of shooting for cheap.
Also, Orbital Strike Relays, good idea or waste of points? The Psyk-Out Bomb seems like it would be nice against summoning farms or a bunched up seer council.
"Ok" is quite a understatment IMO. 10 points for a master level 1 psyker with 2 powers from some of the best psycic power tabels, and which are spamable, makes them great. 6 units of 3 henchmen with psyker in razorback with psyboltammo is 408 points. 12 units of objective secured and 12 warp charges. And a great warp charge generator for other psykers in the GK army.
Yup. They are unquestionably incredible for only 10 points.
easysauce wrote: didnt see they were on the list for rolling on powers,
derp
they are ok now i guess, better then before certainly
"Ok" is quite a understatment IMO. 10 points for a master level 1 psyker with 2 powers from some of the best psycic power tabels, and which are spamable, makes them great. 6 units of 3 henchmen with psyker in razorback with psyboltammo is 408 points. 12 units of objective secured and 12 warp charges. And a great warp charge generator for other psykers in the GK army.
I'm considering starting a GK army, what do people normally choose for the two other chumps? I haven't played a game with them yet, but so far in my list building I've been messing around with a 4 man group: 1 Psyker and 3 Servitors w/Heavy Bolters. It seems like a fair amount of shooting for cheap.
Also, Orbital Strike Relays, good idea or waste of points? The Psyk-Out Bomb seems like it would be nice against summoning farms or a bunched up seer council.
The Oribital Relays are a waste in my eyes because they will always scatter the 2D6 inches. Unlikely it will hit what you want. The Stormraven is a fantastic choice because of their mindstrike missiles.
Chimera also have beastly potential when combined with psybacks. Psychic shriek and 3 plasma guns is a lot of dakka going out the fire point, or a unit of strikes/purifiers can trade transports. The av10 flanks can be protected with cover/los blocking by psybacks positioned on the flanks and Chimeras in the center.
If your area allows forgeworld, the most recent imperial armour book allows GK to take Inquisitorial Valkyries. They can trade their two hellstrike missiles for two mindstrike missiles for free, and for 10pts get two heavy bolter sponsors to go with their multilaser.
We can take them in squadrons of 3 in fast attack, or as dedicated transports for Henchmen squads.
They addition (mind you, only if your allowed to play forgeworld) opens up a whole new can of hard counter to daemons. For 128pts you get your stand Psychic battery with a nice valkyrie escort. (You can get a Lascannon for 15pts more)
This unit provides:
-objective secured scoring x2
-Anti-pysker
-Anti-infantry/Light Armor (3x S6 shots and 6x S5 shots)
-Some Anti-Air (Won't scratch AV12 very well unless you get in on rear armor.)
What do you guys think of making use of this new assets?
Coyote81 wrote: If your area allows forgeworld, the most recent imperial armour book allows GK to take Inquisitorial Valkyries. They can trade their two hellstrike missiles for two mindstrike missiles for free, and for 10pts get two heavy bolter sponsors to go with their multilaser.
We can take them in squadrons of 3 in fast attack, or as dedicated transports for Henchmen squads.
They addition (mind you, only if your allowed to play forgeworld) opens up a whole new can of hard counter to daemons. For 128pts you get your stand Psychic battery with a nice valkyrie escort. (You can get a Lascannon for 15pts more)
This unit provides:
-objective secured scoring x2
-Anti-pysker
-Anti-infantry/Light Armor (3x S6 shots and 6x S5 shots)
-Some Anti-Air (Won't scratch AV12 very well unless you get in on rear armor.)
What do you guys think of making use of this new assets?
Seems OK for the points. Other than that unit i don't think the FWGK units are very good. The Inq. Valkyrie is available also through codex I, but without mindstrike missiles.
For anti-demon/psyker I usually prefere the stormraven with henchmen inside. The stormraven is also good against other flyets and you get the multimelta against AV 14.
The valkyrie is objective secured in hoover mode (as the SR is scoring). The problem is to get your hull within 3" of objectivs. That's only possible if you place objectives higher than ground level. In some GT this is not allowed.
"Ok" is quite a understatment IMO. 10 points for a master level 1 psyker with 2 powers from some of the best psycic power tabels, and which are spamable, makes them great. 6 units of 3 henchmen with psyker in razorback with psyboltammo is 408 points. 12 units of objective secured and 12 warp charges. And a great warp charge generator for other psykers in the GK army.
Yup. They are unquestionably incredible for only 10 points.
Looks quite interesting.
There are lots of points left to fill the rest. Even a more expensive tank like a LR would be justifiable.
I think the 'problem' with GK is what to do with the warp charges generated. Sure the psyker henchmen could each do a psychic shriek, but it is doubtful they will all be in range or doubtful you'd want them out of their transports all the time. So what are all those warp charges used for? On what? What else goes in the list?
while i think the pyskers got a buff, even a large one, I would be very hesitant to make a list around 3 man squads in rhinos/backs, just doesnt seem very durable at all, and in this edition obj secured troops will need to stay alive till the last turn if you want to win.
not a bad list IMO, but far from the best one makable with the codex and rules as they are right now.
personally I am more excited about gaining BB with the imperium and being able to add some first turn drop pod goodness to my alpha strike lists.
Easy sauce I think the idea is that they are so cheap the rest of the army can be used to beat up the other side's troops. Or you do allies to get some tougher troops to claim further away objectives. Or you only take 4 razors and have two Troop units of something tough like ____ I don't know what.
Psy razorbacks are pretty good and with Coteaz they only cost a little more to become scoring. Seems like a no brainer to rune at least a few.
I was thinking about taking Eldar Allies for my GK list. Something along the lines of Farseer jetbike mantle of laughing god, Spirit Stones. A small jetbike scoring squad or two and a wraithknight.
This is to accompany my Dreadknight heavy GK list. I felt that I could harness the High Mastery level of the farseer offensively using my Gk as a warp charge battery. I will have Coteaz of course as well.
What do you think of combining these two armies (allies of convenience btw)
Coyote81 wrote: I was thinking about taking Eldar Allies for my GK list. Something along the lines of Farseer jetbike mantle of laughing god, Spirit Stones. A small jetbike scoring squad or two and a wraithknight.
This is to accompany my Dreadknight heavy GK list. I felt that I could harness the High Mastery level of the farseer offensively using my Gk as a warp charge battery. I will have Coteaz of course as well.
What do you think of combining these two armies (allies of convenience btw)
Nah, i'm really unshure if GK/Eldar is a good combination in 7.ed. Shure you can go MC-spam, but not being battlebrothers hurts a lot. Specially when it comes to throwing pshycic powers around.
Now when GK is BB with the rest of the empire, there are so many good combinations there.
One being GK as a Warp charge battery for a centurion star with Tiggy. With objective secured and maybe MSU on the way up, GK/SM and GK/IG also has a lot of mech options.
I have 3 dreadknights and have played them a lot i 5. and 6.ed, and some 7.ed. I have more and more problems making them work in competitive play. They may work in a huge alpha strike army with shunting, and maybe some SM/SW drop pods, but im unshure. They are not that difficult to kill, and kitted out with teleporter they are rather expensive. Barebound they are of course cheap, but slow as hell.
Are Vindicare Assassins worthwile? The ability to strip a gear-based invulnerable save and the turbo-penetration round seem nice, but it seems like he'd die pretty quickly, and might only get one shot per game.
undertow wrote: Are Vindicare Assassins worthwile? The ability to strip a gear-based invulnerable save and the turbo-penetration round seem nice, but it seems like he'd die pretty quickly, and might only get one shot per game.
Still worth taking?
Still good at killing high AV armour. We lack a FAQ now on wether he ignors Look out sir. I have seen people argue over this. His main problem was that any good player with suitable targets, will know to take him out early. And he is not hard to kill if you focus fire on him.
FinkleLord wrote: So I don't start another topic, what are everyone's view on strike squad rhino/razorback spam for those not wanting to run henchmen?
MSU Strikers are right there with MSU Purifiers and MSU Hench-folk. Warp Charge spamming is key, atm, so any form of multiple small Psyker units is good. That or Shunt lists. Draigowing seems to now be an addition to the other GK lists, rather than a stand alone build.
FinkleLord wrote: So I don't start another topic, what are everyone's view on strike squad rhino/razorback spam for those not wanting to run henchmen?
I would say strikes squad has gotten a little worse, with the loss of warp quake. If you want GKMSU mech i would rate bouth henchmen and purifiers far better.
The thing with the Vindicare is that you can now attach other characters to him. +65 points gets you an inquisitor with terminator armor.
Don't for get you can hide him out of sight and pop off shots with his pistol.
With a pair or three attached characters, he is pretty solid holding the line behind a defense line.
The real problem with him is that he's unique. If I could run 3 of them, I would.
HawaiiMatt wrote: The thing with the Vindicare is that you can now attach other characters to him. +65 points gets you an inquisitor with terminator armor.
Don't for get you can hide him out of sight and pop off shots with his pistol.
With a pair or three attached characters, he is pretty solid holding the line behind a defense line.
The real problem with him is that he's unique. If I could run 3 of them, I would.
Seems like a wast to attach IC to him.
GK/I have several good characters for buffing other units with nades and psycic powers. Babysitting the vindicare should not be a priority .
Coyote81 wrote: I was thinking about taking Eldar Allies for my GK list. Something along the lines of Farseer jetbike mantle of laughing god, Spirit Stones. A small jetbike scoring squad or two and a wraithknight.
This is to accompany my Dreadknight heavy GK list. I felt that I could harness the High Mastery level of the farseer offensively using my Gk as a warp charge battery. I will have Coteaz of course as well.
What do you think of combining these two armies (allies of convenience btw)
Nah, i'm really unshure if GK/Eldar is a good combination in 7.ed. Shure you can go MC-spam, but not being battlebrothers hurts a lot. Specially when it comes to throwing pshycic powers around.
Now when GK is BB with the rest of the empire, there are so many good combinations there.
One being GK as a Warp charge battery for a centurion star with Tiggy. With objective secured and maybe MSU on the way up, GK/SM and GK/IG also has a lot of mech options.
I have 3 dreadknights and have played them a lot i 5. and 6.ed, and some 7.ed. I have more and more problems making them work in competitive play. They may work in a huge alpha strike army with shunting, and maybe some SM/SW drop pods, but im unshure. They are not that difficult to kill, and kitted out with teleporter they are rather expensive. Barebound they are of course cheap, but slow as hell.
After posting this I rethought the idea and came up with a similar notion. I'm basically preparing for FoB, so my list is 1500 and 2 book limited, but what do you think?
Coteaz
3x Henchmen: 2xacolyte w/stormbolters 1x psyker Razorback w/psyammo
1x Henchmen: 3xacolyte w/stormbolters 1x psyker Razorback w/psyammo
2x Nemisis Dreadknight w/ Teleporter and Heavy incinerator
Tigerius
8x tacical marines in a droppod melta//combimelta/melatbomb
3x Centruions Gravcannon/amp/missile launchers/omniscope
It's a really basic list. marines are at 8 to give options to drop characters with marines for a heavier alpha. Otherwise coteaz/tiggy go in centurions. Henchmen ride around taking objectives and threatening Shriek/heavy flamer powers. And Nemesis Dreads enforce the law.
Coyote81 wrote: I was thinking about taking Eldar Allies for my GK list. Something along the lines of Farseer jetbike mantle of laughing god, Spirit Stones. A small jetbike scoring squad or two and a wraithknight.
This is to accompany my Dreadknight heavy GK list. I felt that I could harness the High Mastery level of the farseer offensively using my Gk as a warp charge battery. I will have Coteaz of course as well.
What do you think of combining these two armies (allies of convenience btw)
Nah, i'm really unshure if GK/Eldar is a good combination in 7.ed. Shure you can go MC-spam, but not being battlebrothers hurts a lot. Specially when it comes to throwing pshycic powers around.
Now when GK is BB with the rest of the empire, there are so many good combinations there.
One being GK as a Warp charge battery for a centurion star with Tiggy. With objective secured and maybe MSU on the way up, GK/SM and GK/IG also has a lot of mech options.
I have 3 dreadknights and have played them a lot i 5. and 6.ed, and some 7.ed. I have more and more problems making them work in competitive play. They may work in a huge alpha strike army with shunting, and maybe some SM/SW drop pods, but im unshure. They are not that difficult to kill, and kitted out with teleporter they are rather expensive. Barebound they are of course cheap, but slow as hell.
After posting this I rethought the idea and came up with a similar notion. I'm basically preparing for FoB, so my list is 1500 and 2 book limited, but what do you think?
Coteaz
3x Henchmen: 2xacolyte w/stormbolters 1x psyker Razorback w/psyammo
1x Henchmen: 3xacolyte w/stormbolters 1x psyker Razorback w/psyammo
2x Nemisis Dreadknight w/ Teleporter and Heavy incinerator
Tigerius
8x tacical marines in a droppod melta//combimelta/melatbomb
3x Centruions Gravcannon/amp/missile launchers/omniscope
It's a really basic list. marines are at 8 to give options to drop characters with marines for a heavier alpha. Otherwise coteaz/tiggy go in centurions. Henchmen ride around taking objectives and threatening Shriek/heavy flamer powers. And Nemesis Dreads enforce the law.
What do you think?
I like it. Think you should try it out some.
Keep watching how the knights perform. Together they are expensive. If you don't think they perform, maybe consider adding one more centurions to your mini-star. Or some psyfmen dreads if MSU is rising. Or a stormraven (for anti psyker and some air defence). Maybe throw some henchmen into the raven.
What if you went with Rhino, extra storm bolter and psibolt ammo over the psiback?
You'd get 4 S5 shots, and still be able to cast out of the rhino's top hatch, and have the acolytes inside pop off some shots too.
93 points gives you 2 plasma guns, 2 S5 storm bolters a psychic, and a psychic rhino. All of which could be Objective Secured Scoring.
HawaiiMatt wrote: What if you went with Rhino, extra storm bolter and psibolt ammo over the psiback?
You'd get 4 S5 shots, and still be able to cast out of the rhino's top hatch, and have the acolytes inside pop off some shots too.
93 points gives you 2 plasma guns, 2 S5 storm bolters a psychic, and a psychic rhino. All of which could be Objective Secured Scoring.
Seems pretty good for the points.
-Matt
You would lose range and can't you only shoot one at full bs and the rest snapshots?
Honestly, so many of the possible psyker powers the henchmen could fire out of a rhino are so short, that to get in range I will probably being getting my rhino killed anyways. I think I'm better of paying the cheap amount of points (10) to upgrade to a razorback which can do some nice work in numbers.
shriek-18"
flame breath-template
smite-18"
A few random ones have 24", but even those are far and few.
I feel I'm better of running razorback which can shoot and I use for interference against assault units. (remember assault units don't consolidate against vehicles.)
I used Eldar allies in 6th edition and it worked really well but I have yet to try it in 7th but the next game I play I am considering it.
I have mainly been using an Imperial Fist allies with a drop pod and honestly, I think it compliments a shunting list really well with drop pods coming in one turn one. I roughly have the same set up as the above with Tigurious except just a plain Libby and the Centurions have TL Lascannons.
Is Rhino and henchman spam still popular with GK? I never had luck with GKSS in Rhinos and decided to DS them in because the Rhinos always got blown up on their way to the target and wasn't worth the points.
I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWNDDL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.
Well, that is just it, where does everyone feel that GK meta is going? Are we going to join the rest of the Imperium in turning the battlefield reminiscent of the 5th edition parking lot using Rhinos and Razorbacks or are we going to us our own advantages with the amount of DS we have in our codex with using allies to compliment with DP? Or with the Iron Hands example, using a little of both?
The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTsand their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)
Enigwolf wrote: The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTsand their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)
This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.
Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.
Enigwolf wrote: I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWNDDL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.
My take on an "armour saturation" list.
Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.
Enigwolf wrote: The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTsand their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)
This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.
You shouldn't worry about getting to assault quickly so much; one thing that didn't change from 6th to 7th is that shooting is still where it is at when it comes to killing things.
Enigwolf wrote: The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTsand their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)
This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.
Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.
I've only played a couple games of 7th but I've had great success with 5 purifiers in Rhinos. I ran an 1850 pt game against a Tau player using 3 of these units and they performed brilliantly. On turn 1 I drove forward 12" towards his Pathfinders and used Cleansing Flame to wipe out 2 units of them. Then 2 Psycannons made 8 snap shots out the top hatch to put 1 wound each on a Riptide. Meanwhile 2 DKs shunted forward and flamed out 2 units of firewarriors sitting on objectives. He had some really bad rolling but in the end I was very impressed with Purifers in Rhinos.
Cleansing Flame was a huge boon to the list. Crowe came in later inside a Stormraven but didn't do much... so having Objective Secured Purifers still has the 150 pt tax drawback. I'm considering taking an Aegis Defense line with an Icarus to give Crowe something to do and to provide a first turn defense for the rhinos.
Enigwolf wrote: I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWNDDL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.
My take on an "armour saturation" list.
Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.
SJ
Sorry, wasn't clear. To clarify, I run PTs on all my DKs, and walk them up the board. I meant to say walk them up the board and save the shunt for critical repositioning, i.e. last-turn objective grabs or shunting somewhere to flame a scoring unit off the board.
Enigwolf wrote: The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTsand their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)
This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.
Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.
I personally feel that the value of GKSS has dropped if you don't plan to Deepstrike them and instead stick them in transports. They lost Quake, and won't assault till much later in the game, which devalues one of their core advantages over a tac marine.
Enigwolf wrote: I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWNDDL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.
My take on an "armour saturation" list.
Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.
SJ
I think that the Personal Teleporter has become so universal to the build of a DK that most people forget its an add-on
Enigwolf wrote: I've honestly been toying around with the idea of Iron Hands allies with DP melta suicide squads or an Ironclad dread with Deathwind launchers. IWNDDL Droppods can be a pain in the arse to deal with. Or a single Knight Errant to accompany two walking DKs with incinerators. All three moving 12", beasts at close combat. DKs can run interference for anything that tries to flank the Knight or bog it down. Top it off with an LRC packed with Crusaders, Inquisitor fishing for invis, DCAs, and a priest. If your meta allows FW, take a Sicaran tank for anti-Wave Serpent and to plug the anti-air hole. Fill the rest of points with psybacks and more MSU psyker+bolter acolyte henchmen squads.
My take on an "armour saturation" list.
Walking DKs move 6", not 12". The PT changes them to Jump MCs, gaining a 12" move. Just say'n.
SJ
I think that the Personal Teleporter has become so universal to the build of a DK that most people forget its an add-on
Enigwolf wrote: The way I see it, 6th edition parking lot became way less effective because we couldn't score with MSUs sitting in vehicles anymore. We just swung way back over the pendulum where now our DTsand their contents can score... (And count as Objective Secured, to boot...)
This has almost made me want to try and break out the Rhinos again to see if I could have anymore luck with them. Either way, I can't CC whether they pop out of DT or DS in, I only will be able to shoot that turn and assault the next. The only good thing is being able to leave the Rhino behind on an objective. It definitely makes Razorbacks more valuable even if you just keep the Heavy Bolter with psybolts. Maybe I should try putting the armor back into my army to try it out, it would certainly allow my GKSS to be on the board turn one to help the shunting team.
Anyone use Rhinos or Razorbacks in 7th with their GKs and meet success? And not henchman...real GK.
I personally feel that the value of GKSS has dropped if you don't plan to Deepstrike them and instead stick them in transports. They lost Quake, and won't assault till much later in the game, which devalues one of their core advantages over a tac marine.
I am glad I am not the only who felt that way. As much as I like having sound strategy, the use of transport spam for GK didn't sit right for me as much as the henchman spam did. I also feel like DS got a ton more valuable in 7th. So did vehicles but I don't feel that Rhinos have enough armor to make a difference in the first place.
The little I've played my GKs in 7th so far I've had a blast running 3x HI only Dreadknights. They are slow, but three Torrent Flamers and tough MCs marching up the middle has a good degree of board control and it is only 480pts. I always ran mine with PTs, now I'm looking at builds that keep them cheap. I used to run them 2-3 with PT HIGS at 260pts for Shunt --> Flame --> T2 Charge.
I'm exploring the options of 7th as 1-3 is always Objective Secured thanks to Grand Strategy and board control and a nasty flamer go along way.
My one problem is that I have been running a GK army with only one DK and I realize this as a weakness. I love Dreadnoughts so much I have been trying to make mine work but right now my list could definitely use a second DK to up the stakes a bit.
Are DKs the be all to end all HS choice still though? While they didn't really see a change themselves through the edition change, with the new resurgence of vehicles Psyflemen have seen a second life.
HawaiiMatt wrote: The thing with the Vindicare is that you can now attach other characters to him. +65 points gets you an inquisitor with terminator armor.
Don't for get you can hide him out of sight and pop off shots with his pistol.
With a pair or three attached characters, he is pretty solid holding the line behind a defense line.
The real problem with him is that he's unique. If I could run 3 of them, I would.
At that point might as well throw him in a bastion, then he can also man the gun on top
With TAU and eldar rising, i found that my 2-3 dreadknights died rather fast in the end of 6.ed. I don't see a big change to that now. I have played 14+ games in 7.ed, all with psyflemen, and been really satisfied with them. People seem to go for more and more AV11-12 tranports where the psyflemen really shine. 2-3 psyflemen over 2-3 knights also gives more points to other stuff.
Godless-Mimicry wrote:Are DKs the be all to end all HS choice still though? While they didn't really see a change themselves through the edition change, with the new resurgence of vehicles Psyflemen have seen a second life.
Tyfus wrote:With TAU and eldar rising, i found that my 2-3 dreadknights died rather fast in the end of 6.ed. I don't see a big change to that now. I have played 14+ games in 7.ed, all with psyflemen, and been really satisfied with them. People seem to go for more and more AV11-12 tranports where the psyflemen really shine. 2-3 psyflemen over 2-3 knights also gives more points to other stuff.
Don't know about you guys, but I'm seeing more and more AV13/14 vehicles show up in the meta... Of which Psyflemen don't really do well at.
Ok, well here's something to chew on. There was an Imperial Knight put up as a prize at a tourney at my local store a couple of months ago. I'd never considered adding a knight to my GK's, but since it was free I figured why not? To be clear: this is a BAD list. I've also had a blast with it.
@1500pts
Strike Squad w/ x2 psycannons
x5 Termies w/ x1 psycannon and a Maleus Terminator with Hammer/Psycannon
x5 Interceptors w/ Incinerator
Stormraven (Psybolt ammo, assault cannon, hurricane bolters, and multimelta) w/ ~x7 DCA
Knight Errant
Add on Hammers/Halberds/Psybolt Ammo to taste.
It's kind of a turn 2 shunt list. The SS and Termies deep strike, and the interceptors lay low until they can warp over and go roast cultists or something. I use the errant as a kind of mega-suicide-distraction-carnifex, and hope he soaks up all the fire before detonating in the middle of the enemy line. He has this annoying habit of surviving though... I think it'll work better at 2k points with some more bodies or maybe a DK + another interceptor squad to make it into more of a first turn threat. As it is, most games end up with just the Knight Errant stomping around a desolate wasteland while the Stormraven flaps around looking for an objective to sit on. The poor poor infantry just get taken apart.
It seems pretty balanced to me.
also i tried Imperial Knight (Knight Paladin) and it was really great, but it costs a lot and my friends hate me for bringing him on the table, so i decided to make an alternative list. also its quite easy to destroy if you have proper weapons..
Here you can see pretty good amount of wc + rerollable hits/wonds rolls on everything (thanks to mass buffs).
the only weakness that i can see is absence of purifiers, but i cannot decide what is better - mobile and dangerous warp spiders or Purifiers in Rhinos..
Especially after Zimko`s comment about their double effectiveness in combo 3 rhino units..
Psyrifle Dreads are good but the thing is if you are that worried about a vehicle and didn't bring anything, the DK still has great CC that it can use to take on vehicles and with a PT, it can move 12" and easily take it out. I think I have taken out more vehicles with my DK than I have with my dreadnoughts but also, Psyrifle Dreads do cost less so there is that with 2 Psyrifle being roughly the cost of one DK with a PT.
Played my first game of 7th Edition with my Grey Knights last weekend. I lost horrible, but there were some bad rolls involved, and it wasn't an ideal match-up. But, it did give me a chance to test out the new Psychic Phase. Woo, boy, is that a nerfbat to the GK's psychic strength. Not only have we lost most of our unique powers, but we don't even get to successfully cast as many as we used to. Sure, I had a dozen warp charge dice, but when it came time to send six squads into assault, only three successfully cast Hammerhand. Last edition, all six would have had Hammerhand up, in addition to the powers my Librarian had.
Certainly, our psychic defense is pretty strong, but our psychic offense took a real hit, I feel.
Sad part is, my friend couldn't understand my point. All he saw from his side of the table was the huge pile of warp dice I had. I figure, when he gives his Elder army a try, he'll understand what I'm talking about.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Played my first game of 7th Edition with my Grey Knights last weekend. I lost horrible, but there were some bad rolls involved, and it wasn't an ideal match-up. But, it did give me a chance to test out the new Psychic Phase. Woo, boy, is that a nerfbat to the GK's psychic strength. Not only have we lost most of our unique powers, but we don't even get to successfully cast as many as we used to. Sure, I had a dozen warp charge dice, but when it came time to send six squads into assault, only three successfully cast Hammerhand. Last edition, all six would have had Hammerhand up, in addition to the powers my Librarian had.
Certainly, our psychic defense is pretty strong, but our psychic offense took a real hit, I feel.
Sad part is, my friend couldn't understand my point. All he saw from his side of the table was the huge pile of warp dice I had. I figure, when he gives his Elder army a try, he'll understand what I'm talking about.
We are still one of the strongest psychic armies out there regardless because everyone is feeling the effects of the new psychic phase and honestly, I like it because it adds a more tactical sense to our psychic powers then just going ahead and activating force blades and hammerhand. It shows the value of those moves and that they should be taken for granted. I don't think this hurt the GK at all.
With DT being superscoring, the parking lots are definitely on their way back. However, if you play mainly maelstrom missions (with house rules to taste), the concept of an alpha strike is on the way out.
If you are going to spam DT, then take and hold is the way to play imho. That means you need something more than 3 henchmen, because the psyback will die.
The advantages I see for GK are deep strike, psycannons, and halberds (for clearing small troops off objectives). Plus, Grand Strategy.
Warp charges are an occasional bonus. If anything, I think GK got a nerf, cos you need all these extra psykers just to do what you could do in 6th - and you have to plan better because you can't activate the force in the opponent turn.
Purifiers don't have objective secured. So, they aren't great. A single Tau firewarrior that survives, wins the objective or takes the relic away. Same goes for paladins (outside of draigowing), psyflemen, purgation squads etc.
So my 7e list (once I finish my Raven) will be heavy on strikes, combat squadded, a few (3) razorbacks, and the Raven. DK will still appear, because I like them on the table, but if I really want to win a maelstrom game, I'll take more strikes.
Yeah, we can still probably get off more powers than most armies, but I really think that the loss of our units' individual powers was a harsh blow.
When I saw the new malefic discipline, I immediately thought of Warp Quake. What an awesome counter to summoning demons, and a really fluffy interaction as well. No demon summoning nearby a strike squad with the power up. But nope! It's gone. And Purgation squads are just strike marines with more psycannons. I mean, it will probably be addressed when we get a codex update, but it's still a shame.
Anyone else feel like the value of a GM dropped now that everything scores (granted, not OS, but DKs pretty much shred anything that's contesting it if it's not a Knight...) and the loss of Psychic Communion?
You still have objective secured with troops and Grand Strategy lets us nominate units to score as if they are Troops so no, I don't think they have lost their value. Being able to give objective secured to Interceptors, DKs or Dreadnoughts is still a valuable thing. Not only that but the other Grand Strategy benefits are still good as well.
I am sad to see most of our more unique psychic powers leave as much as the next guy but honestly, this makes casting psychic powers difficult for everyone. The daemon factory isn't as scary as people like to make it out to be. I don't think GK got that much of a nerf nor do I thiink we got a huge buff back to our 5th edition dominance.
My point with regards to Grand Strategy was more of that making 'ceptors, DKs, or Dreads scoring was because they couldn't score. Dreads for sitting backfield, 'ceptors and DKs for grabbing midfield and your opponent's objectives.
I think the added benefit of Objective Secured is minimal for DK and Dreads, and only marginally better for 'ceptors now though. DKs can clear other OS and most contesting units off of an objective pretty well in CC, Dreads if positioned well shouldn't be contested too often, leaving 'ceptors with the sole unit that would really benefit from Grand Strat OS.
Has anyone ever used Grand Strat for something besides making a unit scoring?
Enigwolf wrote: My point with regards to Grand Strategy was more of that making 'ceptors, DKs, or Dreads scoring was because they couldn't score. Dreads for sitting backfield, 'ceptors and DKs for grabbing midfield and your opponent's objectives.
I think the added benefit of Objective Secured is minimal for DK and Dreads, and only marginally better for 'ceptors now though. DKs can clear other OS and most contesting units off of an objective pretty well in CC, Dreads if positioned well shouldn't be contested too often, leaving 'ceptors with the sole unit that would really benefit from Grand Strat OS.
Has anyone ever used Grand Strat for something besides making a unit scoring?
I think you greatly underestimate the power of objective secured. Even on a dreadknight base it is easy to get within range of the objective and stay one inch away from him. Sure he might kill the unit if going second. But if going first that enemy unit now claims it and stops you from doing so.
Also having scoring dreads gives you a decently durable backfield holder while the rest of your forces advance.
Enigwolf wrote: My point with regards to Grand Strategy was more of that making 'ceptors, DKs, or Dreads scoring was because they couldn't score. Dreads for sitting backfield, 'ceptors and DKs for grabbing midfield and your opponent's objectives.
I think the added benefit of Objective Secured is minimal for DK and Dreads, and only marginally better for 'ceptors now though. DKs can clear other OS and most contesting units off of an objective pretty well in CC, Dreads if positioned well shouldn't be contested too often, leaving 'ceptors with the sole unit that would really benefit from Grand Strat OS.
Has anyone ever used Grand Strat for something besides making a unit scoring?
I think you greatly underestimate the power of objective secured. Even on a dreadknight base it is easy to get within range of the objective and stay one inch away from him. Sure he might kill the unit if going second. But if going first that enemy unit now claims it and stops you from doing so.
Also having scoring dreads gives you a decently durable backfield holder while the rest of your forces advance.
Agreed on all points, hence, why I was asking if that alone was worth the points cost and HQ slot of a GM.
Worth alone? Not in the slightest, for his cost you can get more actual scoring units. However with occupying an HQ slot, bringing in servo skulls as well as some other stuff he is definately worth his points(psyker as well doesnt hurt)
Leth wrote: Worth alone? Not in the slightest, for his cost you can get more actual scoring units. However with occupying an HQ slot, bringing in servo skulls as well as some other stuff he is definately worth his points(psyker as well doesnt hurt)
Again, like you said, from a points-perspective, if it's just for psyker and servoskulls, an Inquisitor is far cheaper for the same.
Purifiers don't have objective secured. So, they aren't great. A single Tau firewarrior that survives, wins the objective or takes the relic away.
Unless you take Crowe or use Grand Strategy. Purifiers make great objective secured troops. For 180 points you get a rhino, 5 fearless MEQ holding 2 psycannons and capable of casting cleansing flame and an Objective Secured Rhino that gives another warp charge (or can cast Sanctuary on a DK for a 4++). Not a bad deal.
Purifiers don't have objective secured. So, they aren't great. A single Tau firewarrior that survives, wins the objective or takes the relic away.
Unless you take Crowe or use Grand Strategy. Purifiers make great objective secured troops. For 180 points you get a rhino, 5 fearless MEQ holding 2 psycannons and capable of casting cleansing flame and an Objective Secured Rhino that gives another warp charge (or can cast Sanctuary on a DK for a 4++). Not a bad deal.
Sanctuary's a Blessing that targets the psyker, just fyi.
WrentheFaceless wrote: You'd think Grand Mastery would give OS, if only they'd faqd that to actually makes sense since everything scores now
Ah well
Grand Strategy straight from the codex: Unyielding Anvil - A key position must seized for victory to be won. The nominated units can claim objectives as if they were Troops.
That wording I would say that they have objective secured with a GM giving that to a unit.
Anyway, I have always been on the fence about whether purifiers are worth the cost. I know some people swear by them but the cost of them vs. a normal GKSS is a hard decision especially when I bring a lot less to the table but I also favor Interceptors which are my second favorite infantry unit after Terminators/Paladins.
Envihon wrote: Whats wrong with Crowe? I have never used him because I never had an interest in taking Purifiers as troops. I almost once converted but didn't.
The problem with Crowe is he can't join other units and he can't deep strike or take a dedicated transport. He's good in assault but it is nearly impossible for him to reach assault on his own. The reason for taking him is to make Purifiers troops but by himself he's awful.
I'm going to try putting him on an Icarus Lascannon behind a Aegis Defense Line to see if he can get his points worth in by shooting down vehicles and flyers. The Defense line can be placed to give Rhinos a turn 1 cover save if going second or be placed to allow Crowe to hold an objective. Otherwise, I don't know what to do with Crowe other than possibly throwing him in a Stormraven to arrive late game with a turn 3 assault.
I see, well that really doesn't make it that tempting to put Purifiers in my army. I really abuse the hell out of deep strike.
Has anyone tried another Imperial faction to help out? AM or SM? How about some Space Wolves? Rune Priest with GK and a little fluff bending never hurt anyone..right?
Leth wrote: I think crowe has SOME potential if you are taking him anyway to make purifiers troops.
Get an extra rhino somewhere and throw him in it, then run around with an extra cleansing flame.
Purifiers always had something to be desired for me. They are probably one of the best anti-horde units but their lack of deep strike, relying on rhinos and then their cost is what always put me off about them and now that Cleansing Flame doesn't quite work how it used to still makes me function. Sure, you will still use Cleansing Flame right before you assault but the reliability is gone and that means you have to expend more to get force or hammerhand which means you will be tossing a lot of warp charges towards the purifiers way to make that assault worth it. To that is a lot of expense for just one unit to be effective. Would it help in those fights that have a daemon that will wreck your face? Yeah but it probably would have been better to shoot that daemon or let a DK handle it in CC.
Leth wrote: I think crowe has SOME potential if you are taking him anyway to make purifiers troops.
Get an extra rhino somewhere and throw him in it, then run around with an extra cleansing flame.
Purifiers always had something to be desired for me. They are probably one of the best anti-horde units but their lack of deep strike, relying on rhinos and then their cost is what always put me off about them and now that Cleansing Flame doesn't quite work how it used to still makes me function. Sure, you will still use Cleansing Flame right before you assault but the reliability is gone and that means you have to expend more to get force or hammerhand which means you will be tossing a lot of warp charges towards the purifiers way to make that assault worth it. To that is a lot of expense for just one unit to be effective. Would it help in those fights that have a daemon that will wreck your face? Yeah but it probably would have been better to shoot that daemon or let a DK handle it in CC.
And right there I think you have summed up why Crowe armies won't work so well this edition.
You know, something that's been mentioned once or twice I think was solodins. With psychic phase and warp charges being a lot more important now, do you guys see the value of solodins increasing as a result? Essentially, they serve as cheap Warp Charge batteries now, too.
Leth wrote: I think crowe has SOME potential if you are taking him anyway to make purifiers troops.
Get an extra rhino somewhere and throw him in it, then run around with an extra cleansing flame.
Purifiers always had something to be desired for me. They are probably one of the best anti-horde units but their lack of deep strike, relying on rhinos and then their cost is what always put me off about them and now that Cleansing Flame doesn't quite work how it used to still makes me function. Sure, you will still use Cleansing Flame right before you assault but the reliability is gone and that means you have to expend more to get force or hammerhand which means you will be tossing a lot of warp charges towards the purifiers way to make that assault worth it. To that is a lot of expense for just one unit to be effective. Would it help in those fights that have a daemon that will wreck your face? Yeah but it probably would have been better to shoot that daemon or let a DK handle it in CC.
Who said anything about assaulting with them?
Mobile cleaning fire combined with two psycannons out the top hatch? Thats a lot of damage output. With lots of dangerous things requireing snap fire, having a cleansing fire built in would be awesome as well as 8 snap firing psycannon shots.
Power it by buying hench squad with psyker and razorback and now you got 4 dedicated dice, and you can pull 1-2 from other sources every turn(like dreads). I think it offers serious potential. Crowe makes them objective secured, however I am thinking he is not worth the points or HQ slot.
Leth wrote: I think crowe has SOME potential if you are taking him anyway to make purifiers troops.
Get an extra rhino somewhere and throw him in it, then run around with an extra cleansing flame.
Purifiers always had something to be desired for me. They are probably one of the best anti-horde units but their lack of deep strike, relying on rhinos and then their cost is what always put me off about them and now that Cleansing Flame doesn't quite work how it used to still makes me function. Sure, you will still use Cleansing Flame right before you assault but the reliability is gone and that means you have to expend more to get force or hammerhand which means you will be tossing a lot of warp charges towards the purifiers way to make that assault worth it. To that is a lot of expense for just one unit to be effective. Would it help in those fights that have a daemon that will wreck your face? Yeah but it probably would have been better to shoot that daemon or let a DK handle it in CC.
Who said anything about assaulting with them?
Mobile cleaning fire combined with two psycannons out the top hatch? Thats a lot of damage output. With lots of dangerous things requireing snap fire, having a cleansing fire built in would be awesome as well as 8 snap firing psycannon shots.
Power it by buying hench squad with psyker and razorback and now you got 4 dedicated dice, and you can pull 1-2 from other sources every turn(like dreads). I think it offers serious potential. Crowe makes them objective secured, however I am thinking he is not worth the points or HQ slot.
Even with the possibility of being able to use Cleansing Flame from a Rhino, the distance you need to be is 9". A Rhino firing Psycannons heading straight for an enemy will make that enemy pop it. This isn't a land raider that can be used in that way, this is a Rhino, they will turn and try and blow it up before you ever get that close to use Cleansing Flame from the top hatch. Cleansing Flame was clearly still designed to be a pre-assault move to help make the assault easier for the unit using them. This is why the best way to utilize it was to use it with a Librarian who can cast it before the group he is with can assault.
1 Nemesis Dreadknight
Teleporter
Heavy Incinerator
1xNemesis Dreadknigh
Teleporter
Heavy Incinerator
Aegis Defense Line with Icarus Lascannon
Allies:
1 Knight Errant
Envihon is right that players would see Purifiers charging forward in a rhino and want to kill it asap... but IMO all GK units should be this way. In this list, everything is a turn 2 target priority. It will cause a shooty army havoc figuring out what to shoot first.
Getting a Rhino withing 9" of multiple units isn't too hard considering you can move the full 12" (21" threat range) and autohit 2d6 times with S5 AP4 ignore cover hits on EACH unit. If a rhino goes down then that is fine, the purifiers will lumber their way to the nearest objective and try to assault something while still giving warp charges to the other still mobile Purifiers.
Anyway, I hope this is a viable build for Crowe as I have yet to try it (buying a Knight Errant soon). I already have a shunt list and it works but I've grown tired of it.
Leth wrote: I think crowe has SOME potential if you are taking him anyway to make purifiers troops.
Get an extra rhino somewhere and throw him in it, then run around with an extra cleansing flame.
Purifiers always had something to be desired for me. They are probably one of the best anti-horde units but their lack of deep strike, relying on rhinos and then their cost is what always put me off about them and now that Cleansing Flame doesn't quite work how it used to still makes me function. Sure, you will still use Cleansing Flame right before you assault but the reliability is gone and that means you have to expend more to get force or hammerhand which means you will be tossing a lot of warp charges towards the purifiers way to make that assault worth it. To that is a lot of expense for just one unit to be effective. Would it help in those fights that have a daemon that will wreck your face? Yeah but it probably would have been better to shoot that daemon or let a DK handle it in CC.
Who said anything about assaulting with them?
Mobile cleaning fire combined with two psycannons out the top hatch? Thats a lot of damage output. With lots of dangerous things requireing snap fire, having a cleansing fire built in would be awesome as well as 8 snap firing psycannon shots.
Power it by buying hench squad with psyker and razorback and now you got 4 dedicated dice, and you can pull 1-2 from other sources every turn(like dreads). I think it offers serious potential. Crowe makes them objective secured, however I am thinking he is not worth the points or HQ slot.
Even with the possibility of being able to use Cleansing Flame from a Rhino, the distance you need to be is 9". A Rhino firing Psycannons heading straight for an enemy will make that enemy pop it. This isn't a land raider that can be used in that way, this is a Rhino, they will turn and try and blow it up before you ever get that close to use Cleansing Flame from the top hatch. Cleansing Flame was clearly still designed to be a pre-assault move to help make the assault easier for the unit using them. This is why the best way to utilize it was to use it with a Librarian who can cast it before the group he is with can assault.
Depends on the rest of your army, Now would I be crazy bum rush with it? Nope, however with a 12 inch move and 9 inch range its got a decent threat bubble.
Combined with psycannons and generating two warp charges while also being able to hold their own in CC, I can see them being used. But I think we just are seeing it differently as I am slotting them into my list with lots of threats.
Also my main concerns are things like nurgle daemon princes and other things like invis, so anything that ignores that while doing a decent number of wounds is good in my book. However I have yet to try it so my experience will be limited
Put into that context and with the list above, I can see how it can work. I understand the thought behind the army especially if you have other things that will distract them from specifically going after the Purifiers. I finally had my first run in with Nurgle daemons, so that is also understandable. I will be curious if the Purifier spam would be viable again. I think it is highly interesting that a lot of these old builds that weren't considered good are having a mild come back as people try to see what 7th can bring.
Envihon wrote: Put into that context and with the list above, I can see how it can work. I understand the thought behind the army especially if you have other things that will distract them from specifically going after the Purifiers. I finally had my first run in with Nurgle daemons, so that is also understandable. I will be curious if the Purifier spam would be viable again. I think it is highly interesting that a lot of these old builds that weren't considered good are having a mild come back as people try to see what 7th can bring.
Yep, I am preparing for a lot of double cad tournaments with main Space Marines.
I will probably be taking purifiers in the elite slot so I can take coteaz and a hereticus inquisitor. 1-2 units of purifiers with 2 units of henchmen. I will have plenty of Ranged lascannons with tank hunters(sentinels) So I am really hurting for anti hordes and I think purifiers will really help with that, especially since I have worked banishers into my henchmen squads.
Combined with their preferred enemy against daemons I think purifiers have a lot of potential in the new meta.
Leth wrote: Nevermind then lol. Just read that they are going single cad, single ally, as is nova.
Which means that EVERYONE is going to be going that route.
Well that means that my one unit of purifiers are going in the elite slot lol. Maybe I can combat squad and have a second unit hijack someone elses.
Hey, but Self Ally is in.
BAO and NOVA definitely set the trend, and with one being two and the other three months into the new edition its going to stick. What is great is Mark and Reece's collaborative effort into coming up with unified army guidelines. The only difference is LOW. BAO says limited Yay, NOVA say Nay.
I am actually considering a kitted out Dreadknight in my allied detachment.
He is 260 points but he answers a lot of the problems I have. Then again for the purposes I need him for I can keep him pretty bare bones....ugh so many choices, not enough time to play test.
I am getting him in the mail tomorrow and have to get him assembled and painted to table top in a week.
One of the problems I am having is as someone said "prepare for the armies at the top tables". So I find myself focusing on eldar and daemons a lot. I think the dreadknight would be very nice for all the ID he can bring to the table to really scare off a lot of threats.
The vehicle spam is especially worrying to me. With the amount of attention DKs draw and psyrifle dreadnoughts are good but not the best, GK are a bit limited on their anti-vehicle. As well, DK and dreadnoughts occupy the same slot if you are going battle forged unless you want to shell out the points for Venerable.
Envihon wrote: The vehicle spam is especially worrying to me. With the amount of attention DKs draw and psyrifle dreadnoughts are good but not the best, GK are a bit limited on their anti-vehicle. As well, DK and dreadnoughts occupy the same slot if you are going battle forged unless you want to shell out the points for Venerable.
Psyflemen deal with AV11-12 just fine, and Melta Henchmen can do the rest so as long as you set them up correctly. We managed it in 5th so we can handle it now.
You know, I have been trying to have an excuse to buy an Imperial Knight. I haven't even wanted one because of the power they bring to the table but because they look so darn cool. This is pushing me more and more that it probably will be my next purchase after I get my second DK.
Envihon wrote: You know, I have been trying to have an excuse to buy an Imperial Knight. I haven't even wanted one because of the power they bring to the table but because they look so darn cool. This is pushing me more and more that it probably will be my next purchase after I get my second DK.
Some allied DA with a 4++ for the rhinos or something similar would be helpful. Otherwise you're stuck with either saturation or distraction to protect them.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I'm not sure so much daemons. Eldar yes, but I'm thinking necrons and IG vehicle spam. MSU, lots of bodies, rhinos with 10 marines each in it.
So I think the teleporter is a must for mobility, but I am torn between the sword and/or the incinerator.
I think that the incinerator makes it so I can deep strike and do damage, but then I dont have a CC answer to things. reliably.
Envihon wrote: You know, I have been trying to have an excuse to buy an Imperial Knight. I haven't even wanted one because of the power they bring to the table but because they look so darn cool. This is pushing me more and more that it probably will be my next purchase after I get my second DK.
...Come into the dark...
Exact reasons I made the list I did with 2DKs and an Errant. Even if I didn't go Purifier spam, I think DKs and Errant work wonderfully together.
Envihon wrote: You know, I have been trying to have an excuse to buy an Imperial Knight. I haven't even wanted one because of the power they bring to the table but because they look so darn cool. This is pushing me more and more that it probably will be my next purchase after I get my second DK.
...Come into the dark...
LO
Exact reasons I made the list I did with 2DKs and an Errant. Even if I didn't go Purifier spam, I think DKs and Errant work wonderfully together.
Yup. Same thing I'm fielding. I'm wondering if that will soon become a standard package for GK players... After all, DKs complement a Knight Errant so well. Just as fast, almost quite as tough, incinerator fries massed hordes that would tie the Errant down while the Errant blows up tanks, it can use its base to block charges against the Knight/run interception against flankers/block LOS to give it a cover save.
I'm playing with a vehicle-heavy list. I was thinking of running a Land Raider too, using C:I we can get DTLRs. But again, I want to see how the wording for Lord of Formosa for Coteaz changes in C:I, whether he makes all Henchmen in the army or detachment scoring.
Rough list I'm looking at is:
A cheap InqHQ for either C:I or GK Coteaz
Choppy Henchmen Squad in DTLRC (Crusader, DCAs, Priest)
Either GKSS or Acolytes in Rhinos/Razorbacks.
2x DK Errant
Ally in Iron Hands, some HQ or another,
Tac Marines in Droppod with Deathwind Launcher
Ironclad Dread in Droppod with Deathwin dLauncher
Centurions
Sicaran Battle Tank OR a Stormraven
A lot of mathhammering and min/maxing, something or other has to go, likely.
Tiggy, specifically, cannot do this for lack of the ability to deep strike.
But if you have Tiggy, you have a Tac Squad. And if you have a Tac Squad, you have a Drop Pod. And then Tig can pop out of the Drop Pod and move into coherency with Mordrak's unit, all on T1. You might want a servo-skull to make the Pod more accurate...but it's do-able.
do you think it would be worth it to take a GK Techmarine (Edit: as he auto comes with sanctuary so no need to fish) and a big squad of crusader henchmen for delicious 2++ sanctuary to use as a potentially objective secured tanking unit?
do you think it would be worth it to take a GK Techmarine (Edit: as he auto comes with sanctuary so no need to fish) and a big squad of crusader henchmen for delicious 2++ sanctuary to use as a potentially objective secured tanking unit?
The Techie is listed in the FAQ as having Banishment and Hammerhand, just like most of our stuff. At this point in time, only vehicles have Sanctuary.
I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone talk about taking Tiggy with 10 Termies as a cheap deathstar. He is almost guaranteed to get Invisibility and at the cost difference between terms and Paladin it means you can take quit a bit of other things.
At 1750 I took Coteaz
10 Termies
Dreadnaught
3 Las razorback with 3 psykers each
DK Tiggy
8 marines drop pod
Thunderfire
I played against a Deamon factory and cleaned up. Coteaz, Tiggy and the marines in the drop pod come out become invisible in his back field. Turn 2 the terms drop within 6 because of the homing beacon and the ics join them. everyone else is in my back field. In 3 turns he surrendered.
I have little experience with GK in general but looking at the book I noticed henchmen can take a chimera as a dedicated transport as well, but I never see it taken. I would assume with its superior av12 is would be an attractive option as well? Or are psybacks that much more better?
They are not psychic vehicles so you dont get the extra dice, you are also not taking shooting so the extra fire points are not worth it. Side armor is 10 so worse against a lot of shooting in the side.
Leth wrote: They are not psychic vehicles so you dont get the extra dice, you are also not taking shooting so the extra fire points are not worth it. Side armor is 10 so worse against a lot of shooting in the side.
Also worse shooting in general.
So is the standard way to run henchmen is a razorback (heavy bolters) + psybolt ammunition?
Also as touched upon here earlier in the thread is it worth it to add a psyker henchman to each squad to add to psychic die?
What would the ideal load out be, example: 2 special weapons henchmen (melta/plasma) + psyker in a psy-back?
I deal would be 2x acolyte, 1x psyker, razorback with psybolt(personally I always add the dozer blades).
I am actually going to probably start running them as the same henchmen squad but in a rhino so that I can fire powers out of the hatch. Probably 1-2 of them in rhinos, I am also thinking about turning one of the henchmen into banishers, just to force that re-rolling invul on daemons.
In 7th I don't think that 2 acolyte and 1 psyker is actually the best way to run them. The problem is that when the psyback dies the unit inside is essentially worthless. 3 T3 models isn't going to survive anything shooting at it. Furthermore, shooting a couple of bolters and possibly a psychic power is also going to do jack.
For any maelstrom variant, you need to have something meaningful inside and troops that can survive a couple of rounds, preferably doing something useful or posing some form of threat. There are, after all, 6 objectives, 5 turns, so if you plan on losing your troops every turn, you need 30 troop units.
So many of the spam lists in this thread seem to focus on more psybacks as if psybacks are the answer. I don't think they are. Sure, they are handy, and more survivable and have OS. But they are still comparatively easy to immobilise and/or explode.
I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
If you were going with Rhinos, you'd want 2 shooters at least. So 2 psykers, Psyker/Acolyte with special weapon. Otherwise, why lose the psyback?
Separate question : my reading of the FAQ on combat squads leads me to the conclusion that I can put 10 purifiers in a LR, but have them combat squadded so I can assault 2 separate units coming out of it. This is because the FAQ only refers to transport, not dedicated transport. Anyone disagree with that? If so, I'll take it to YMDC.
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
pocketcanoe wrote: Has anyone noticed any previous fringe or useless units that have become worth considering this edition?
I would say with maelstrom missions interceptor squads have a purpose.
Also I think banishers, purifiers, and hereticus inquisitors are going to make a come back.
Now that warp charges are in the psychic phase I am trying to bring a GK storm raven in all my lists. Dat perils.
I would run solodins with hammer. The problem is that for the price of the paladin you can get a razorback with squad inside.
Just had a tournament today and i am torn on the rhino vrs razorback debate. There were quite aa few times where I wish I could have assailed or psychic screamed out of the hatch.
Assail is not given the respect that it should be. 18 inch beam that causes difficult terrain tests and auto hits. Even if they have move through cover they are still striking last.
Just had a tournament today and i am torn on the rhino vrs razorback debate. There were quite aa few times where I wish I could have assailed or psychic screamed out of the hatch.
Assail is not given the respect that it should be. 18 inch beam that causes difficult terrain tests and auto hits. Even if they have move through cover they are still striking last.
Personally, if I'm going to likely be using the warp charges elsewhere in my army, I'd be taking a Razorback. That'll give you reliable damage output every turn rather than the possibility of one.
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
I'm not sure people fully get the difference Maelstrom style missions make. Planning to just jump on the objective when you get the card/roll doesn't work if there is already an OS unit there. To score, you need to create a 3" gap to the contesting unit. 2 acolytes and a psyker can't remove a drop pod. An acolyte with a melta *might*.
Conversely, if you have 2 acolytes and a psyker sitting on an objective, how hard do you think it is going to be to remove them? T3, 5+ save.....not hard at all. Hell, one flayer array from a ghost ark could do it. And the warriors inside can probably kill the psyback. You might get cover from your wrecked Psyback or better still, be out of LOS. But you have to hold on for 3-4 turns.
Every 7th Tactics thread is literally filled with suggestions on going MSU, and how to defeat MSU. I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.
Leth wrote:
pocketcanoe wrote: Has anyone noticed any previous fringe or useless units that have become worth considering this edition?
I would say with maelstrom missions interceptor squads have a purpose.
Also I think banishers, purifiers, and hereticus inquisitors are going to make a come back.
I've always liked interceptors, but now I'd prefer GKSS. The lack of objective secured is a major cross against interceptors and purifiers, so you really need to pay the Grand Strategy tax.
If you take non OS units, you need to have enough hitting power to clear a 3" gap around an objective, so you'd probably want 10 interceptors given you can't shunt and assault.
Leth wrote:Now that warp charges are in the psychic phase I am trying to bring a GK storm raven in all my lists. Dat perils.
Just finished mine
Leth wrote:Just had a tournament today and i am torn on the rhino vrs razorback debate. There were quite aa few times where I wish I could have assailed or psychic screamed out of the hatch.
Depends what you have in them. If you had at least a pair of psykers and a pair of special weapons, I'd take the Rhino every time. Psybacks are nice, but anything inside is essentially useless until you get them out. Maybe take psybacks and walk next to it using it as LOS blocking cover. You can always jump in if anything nasty shows up.
Personally, if I'm going to likely be using the warp charges elsewhere in my army, I'd be taking a Razorback. That'll give you reliable damage output every turn rather than the possibility of one.
I have been finding that I usually will have 1-2 warp charges left over and psychic scream is a great way to draw out those dispel dice. Its just one of those spells where you cant really risk it against something like a greater daemon or a daemon prince. IF I roll above average you are dead, if not I lost one power die. Also I like assail because I am using a shooty list and having something without grenades moving through difficult when it trys to charge(like most daemons) means that I have a chance to go first and force them out. I was able to use terrain and force to do that today on the final table, it would be nice to not have to risk my henchmen to do so. But I also gained a lot from having those str 6 shots. IDing something out was consistantly helpful, that is probably why I am going to stick with the razorbacks. Just a slight conflict in thinking.
MarkCron wrote:
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
I find that in my lists I am fighting to find 3 points, so I definitely don't have points to spare on a melta acolyte when it could be a combi melta or two daemon hammers elsewhere. The units purpose is to be cheap, OS, a warp charge, and bring a OS transport. I dont expect anything else from it and its not worth investing more in it.
I'm not sure people fully get the difference Maelstrom style missions make. Planning to just jump on the objective when you get the card/roll doesn't work if there is already an OS unit there. To score, you need to create a 3" gap to the contesting unit. 2 acolytes and a psyker can't remove a drop pod. An acolyte with a melta *might*.
Maelstrom is about mobility less about objective secured(although it is nice) It doesnt matter if you are OS if you dont have the ability to get there. If I dont have things in my army that can kill a drop pod, I have a bad list. The acolyte has to get out, basically guarantee their death for less that a 50% chance to kill the drop pod. Not worth it.
Conversely, if you have 2 acolytes and a psyker sitting on an objective, how hard do you think it is going to be to remove them? T3, 5+ save.....not hard at all. Hell, one flayer array from a ghost ark could do it. And the warriors inside can probably kill the psyback. You might get cover from your wrecked Psyback or better still, be out of LOS. But you have to hold on for 3-4 turns.
If you need a acolyte unit and a psyback as the only thing holding an objective and they can dedicate that much firepower to it, you are in really bad shape already. But also the warriors inside are not likely to kill the psyback, Need about 3 6's which is about 18 hits which is 27 shots all this assuming no cover. That is gonna be at least two ghost arks worth of people outside rapid fire.
Every 7th Tactics thread is literally filled with suggestions on going MSU, and how to defeat MSU. I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.
The henchmen and psybacks are there for OS and two warp charges. You get a lot for those 73 points. Are they going to win you the game? Nope, but that is why I would not recommend more than 2-3 units of them. Fill the rest with meat
I've always liked interceptors, but now I'd prefer GKSS. The lack of objective secured is a major cross against interceptors and purifiers, so you really need to pay the Grand Strategy tax.
If you take non OS units, you need to have enough hitting power to clear a 3" gap around an objective, so you'd probably want 10 interceptors given you can't shunt and assault.
Not necessarily unless he only has OS units on all his objectives. It is likely that it is going to be transports or other small units which interceptors should be able to clear off quite easily. Purifiers have the ability with cleaning flame. That they get that as default is insane. Great way to get wounds out there, especially with MSU becoming a thing again.
Depends what you have in them. If you had at least a pair of psykers and a pair of special weapons, I'd take the Rhino every time. Psybacks are nice, but anything inside is essentially useless until you get them out. Maybe take psybacks and walk next to it using it as LOS blocking cover. You can always jump in if anything nasty shows up.
Too much barrage and other such things to get them out. SMS, ect. You are just not going to get them out unless you are going to assume that they are going to die.
Personally, if I'm going to likely be using the warp charges elsewhere in my army, I'd be taking a Razorback. That'll give you reliable damage output every turn rather than the possibility of one.
I have been finding that I usually will have 1-2 warp charges left over and psychic scream is a great way to draw out those dispel dice. Its just one of those spells where you cant really risk it against something like a greater daemon or a daemon prince. IF I roll above average you are dead, if not I lost one power die. Also I like assail because I am using a shooty list and having something without grenades moving through difficult when it trys to charge(like most daemons) means that I have a chance to go first and force them out. I was able to use terrain and force to do that today on the final table, it would be nice to not have to risk my henchmen to do so. But I also gained a lot from having those str 6 shots. IDing something out was consistantly helpful, that is probably why I am going to stick with the razorbacks. Just a slight conflict in thinking.
Well, the key point generally is to make sure that the points inside the razorback aren't wasted. By that I mean there is no point sticking a psyker in a RB if you have another henchmen squad in a rhino. Put the psyker in the rhino so you get the choice.
MarkCron wrote:
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
I find that in my lists I am fighting to find 3 points, so I definitely don't have points to spare on a melta acolyte when it could be a combi melta or two daemon hammers elsewhere. The units purpose is to be cheap, OS, a warp charge, and bring a OS transport. I dont expect anything else from it and its not worth investing more in it.
I see that, and I often have the same problem. But again, there is no point bringing a unit that is going to die that fast and can't usefully do anything once the Psyback is dead, because you don't actually realise any of the benefits. I often find myself wishing for drop pods - that would make this whole process much easier.
I'm not sure people fully get the difference Maelstrom style missions make. Planning to just jump on the objective when you get the card/roll doesn't work if there is already an OS unit there. To score, you need to create a 3" gap to the contesting unit. 2 acolytes and a psyker can't remove a drop pod. An acolyte with a melta *might*.
Maelstrom is about mobility less about objective secured(although it is nice) It doesnt matter if you are OS if you dont have the ability to get there. If I dont have things in my army that can kill a drop pod, I have a bad list. The acolyte has to get out, basically guarantee their death for less that a 50% chance to kill the drop pod. Not worth it.
Not sure I agree entirely. If you are objective secured and tough, then you can make a big dent in the opponents plan. Drop pod is a classic example. If someone leaves a drop pod on an objective you have to devote a weapon with effective strength 6 to glance it. While it's there, you aren't scoring that objective, even with OS. So now we are left shooting HB/psycannons at an immobile drop pod, which is a massive waste of our shooting. Interceptors have to both kill the drop pod, plus deal with whatever came out of it.
Highly mobile, objective secured is obviously the best, tough objective secured is second imho.
Conversely, if you have 2 acolytes and a psyker sitting on an objective, how hard do you think it is going to be to remove them? T3, 5+ save.....not hard at all. Hell, one flayer array from a ghost ark could do it. And the warriors inside can probably kill the psyback. You might get cover from your wrecked Psyback or better still, be out of LOS. But you have to hold on for 3-4 turns.
If you need a acolyte unit and a psyback as the only thing holding an objective and they can dedicate that much firepower to it, you are in really bad shape already. But also the warriors inside are not likely to kill the psyback, Need about 3 6's which is about 18 hits which is 27 shots all this assuming no cover. That is gonna be at least two ghost arks worth of people outside rapid fire.
I definitely don't agree with this. The opponent should dedicate whatever firepower is necessary to get that objective. if you don't score the objective, you can't get a new one, and mostly you can only discard one. That's the key thing about Maelstrom....it's all about directing enough power to create that 3" gap (because if its free, your opponent is basically giving you VP).
Every 7th Tactics thread is literally filled with suggestions on going MSU, and how to defeat MSU. I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.
The henchmen and psybacks are there for OS and two warp charges. You get a lot for those 73 points. Are they going to win you the game? Nope, but that is why I would not recommend more than 2-3 units of them. Fill the rest with meat
Agreed. But make sure you have some objective secured meat.
I've always liked interceptors, but now I'd prefer GKSS. The lack of objective secured is a major cross against interceptors and purifiers, so you really need to pay the Grand Strategy tax.
If you take non OS units, you need to have enough hitting power to clear a 3" gap around an objective, so you'd probably want 10 interceptors given you can't shunt and assault.
Not necessarily unless he only has OS units on all his objectives. It is likely that it is going to be transports or other small units which interceptors should be able to clear off quite easily. Purifiers have the ability with cleaning flame. That they get that as default is insane. Great way to get wounds out there, especially with MSU becoming a thing again.
Why wouldn't you try and put OS units on most objectives? Definitely the forward ones.
Depends what you have in them. If you had at least a pair of psykers and a pair of special weapons, I'd take the Rhino every time. Psybacks are nice, but anything inside is essentially useless until you get them out. Maybe take psybacks and walk next to it using it as LOS blocking cover. You can always jump in if anything nasty shows up.
Too much barrage and other such things to get them out. SMS, ect. You are just not going to get them out unless you are going to assume that they are going to die.
Difference of viewpoint I guess. I always work on the basis that they'll be out, because vehicles, while tougher, are not that hard to kill.
MarkCron wrote: Well, the key point generally is to make sure that the points inside the razorback aren't wasted. By that I mean there is no point sticking a psyker in a RB if you have another henchmen squad in a rhino. Put the psyker in the rhino so you get the choice.
Once again IMO, the henchmen are not there to really actually do anything. Normally you pay 25ish points for an additional warp charge. They do it for 18 on top of being OS and everything else. Even if they dont do anything all game they have made their points back. I think the extra 10 points for the Psyback is just going to be worth it for every one unless I HAVE to cut those points
Highly mobile, objective secured is obviously the best, tough objective secured is second imho.
I would argue highly mobile scoring is second, once again it doesn't matter how tough you are if you cant get there.
I definitely don't agree with this. The opponent should dedicate whatever firepower is necessary to get that objective. if you don't score the objective, you can't get a new one, and mostly you can only discard one. That's the key thing about Maelstrom....it's all about directing enough power to create that 3" gap (because if its free, your opponent is basically giving you VP).
Once again you are assuming that you have given your opponent board control where they get there first. With a highly mobile army, you are going to get there first and he is going to have to get you off the objectives. Even if you are not OS, in maelstrom its at the end of your turn for scoring your cards, and if you can them off it in their movement phase then they have to give up shooting if they kill the unit to run, or they have to not get in range. Now I will admit drop pods are a unique case so I am arguing for most situations.
Second, in any given turn there might be 1-2 objective cards and 1-2 kill/board control cards. So they only need to reasonably clear their opponents off 1 objective. Combined with the kill cards those drop pods on objectives become a liability. If they kill it then they can complete 1-2 cards with the same action
Why wouldn't you try and put OS units on most objectives? Definitely the forward ones.
O I totally would, if I have the mobility to get there. However if I dont then I am going to try and get things that can get there, there.
Difference of viewpoint I guess. I always work on the basis that they'll be out, because vehicles, while tougher, are not that hard to kill.
Agreed, I keep them in because unless they get an explode I am not going to risk them being an easy kill and they still get out. I will take a pinning check over getting killed by a blast marker hitting the vehicle any day.
Honestly, I just had a game this weekend and people are wanting to go with rhinos and psybacks, after seeing a full mechanized army go forth with rhinos and razorbacks, they are just targets for heavy weapons teams. My GKs even destroyed them with ease DS in the back of them and just nailing their rear armor to death.
As much as people want to rely on the armored strategy, I think it would be better to rely on things like land raiders and storm ravens. I broke out my storm raven for the first time in a long time and it was one of my best units.
It just makes me skeptical on relying on rhinos and razorbacks when to me GKs have better options. Like always, a lot of my army got hit pretty hard and I was left with few units but GK have mobility with DS and teleport that by playing the mission, I won the game despite having the odds stacked against me.
Envihon wrote: Honestly, I just had a game this weekend and people are wanting to go with rhinos and psybacks, after seeing a full mechanized army go forth with rhinos and razorbacks, they are just targets for heavy weapons teams. My GKs even destroyed them with ease DS in the back of them and just nailing their rear armor to death.
As much as people want to rely on the armored strategy, I think it would be better to rely on things like land raiders and storm ravens. I broke out my storm raven for the first time in a long time and it was one of my best units.
It just makes me skeptical on relying on rhinos and razorbacks when to me GKs have better options. Like always, a lot of my army got hit pretty hard and I was left with few units but GK have mobility with DS and teleport that by playing the mission, I won the game despite having the odds stacked against me.
The problems with this approach are twofold; Land Raiders and Ravens don't have OS so a single OS model can take the objective from them without having to actually to kill them (not to mention the Raven struggling to get within range of most objectives), and also you are assuming that a bunch of Marines on foot are going to be any harder to kill than a Rhino. Remember 6th edition, where both Marines and vehicles died in droves? Vehicles got harder to kill; Marines didn't. Nobody is acting like 6 AV11 hulls going forward is going to be invincible or anything, but it will be the standard and will be the best shot for Marines; the only downsides are when people make the faulty assumption to expect more.
Envihon wrote: Honestly, I just had a game this weekend and people are wanting to go with rhinos and psybacks, after seeing a full mechanized army go forth with rhinos and razorbacks, they are just targets for heavy weapons teams. My GKs even destroyed them with ease DS in the back of them and just nailing their rear armor to death.
As much as people want to rely on the armored strategy, I think it would be better to rely on things like land raiders and storm ravens. I broke out my storm raven for the first time in a long time and it was one of my best units.
It just makes me skeptical on relying on rhinos and razorbacks when to me GKs have better options. Like always, a lot of my army got hit pretty hard and I was left with few units but GK have mobility with DS and teleport that by playing the mission, I won the game despite having the odds stacked against me.
The problems with this approach are twofold; Land Raiders and Ravens don't have OS so a single OS model can take the objective from them without having to actually to kill them (not to mention the Raven struggling to get within range of most objectives), and also you are assuming that a bunch of Marines on foot are going to be any harder to kill than a Rhino. Remember 6th edition, where both Marines and vehicles died in droves? Vehicles got harder to kill; Marines didn't. Nobody is acting like 6 AV11 hulls going forward is going to be invincible or anything, but it will be the standard and will be the best shot for Marines; the only downsides are when people make the faulty assumption to expect more.
But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so. I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die. So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation? For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas
In addition to the fact that henchmen psybacks ("henchbacks"?) have the disadvantages already mentioned, it is expensive to buy that many.
I agree with @leth when he says that a couple of them are useful, but you need to have meat in the list to do the real work. A list with troops consisting entirely of henchbacks would be awful.
As between LR/C/R and Stormravens, I think my raven is going to get a lot of use. I think my preferred loadout is leaning towards assault cannons, Hurricane Bolter sponsons, MM with psybolts, just because it seems to take better advantage of the 20pts required to pay for psybolts. Still toying with the HB rather than the MM, might actually go with that in the end.
One thing re your comment, don't take psybolts on 5 man squads. Take 10man squads and combat squad them.
Also remember that you can put a combat squadded unit into the same rhino/stormraven/LR, potentially allowing you to assault 2 different units out of the SR/LR.
In addition to the fact that henchmen psybacks ("henchbacks"?) have the disadvantages already mentioned, it is expensive to buy that many.
I agree with @leth when he says that a couple of them are useful, but you need to have meat in the list to do the real work. A list with troops consisting entirely of henchbacks would be awful.
As between LR/C/R and Stormravens, I think my raven is going to get a lot of use. I think my preferred loadout is leaning towards assault cannons, Hurricane Bolter sponsons, MM with psybolts, just because it seems to take better advantage of the 20pts required to pay for psybolts. Still toying with the HB rather than the MM, might actually go with that in the end.
One thing re your comment, don't take psybolts on 5 man squads. Take 10man squads and combat squad them.
Also remember that you can put a combat squadded unit into the same rhino/stormraven/LR, potentially allowing you to assault 2 different units out of the SR/LR.
The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.
The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.
Absolutely that's possible. I think they even said as much in the 6th edition FAQ.
The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.
Absolutely that's possible. I think they even said as much in the 6th edition FAQ.
That would make me actually want to try some psybacks for my GKSS and would offer some survivability. It is still an increase in cost in an already expensive army though which is most of my hesitation for DT in GK.
I am only running two(mainly because GK are my allies) but for 130 points or so getting 4 warp charges and two OS units is not bad. Combined with a banisher in one unit or so it gives some nice back up against daemons.
I just tried a dreadknight and storm raven with MM and lascannon today and it was pretty powerful. I threw a unit of 5 scouts in the storm raven, used my skyshield to start it on the table and just proceeded to put the hurt on multiple units all game while my dreadknight shunted and scared half his army and absorbed all the shots while I played to the objectives. Still managed to survive and get both the warlord and a riptide(Dat force)
@Leth, Have you also tried the SR with the hb, assault cannon combo? Keen to hear people who have experience with that, cos I've only just assembled mine and haven't got a game in with it yet.
It'd be great if people could let me know their experiences how a GK SR, with HB, Assault cannons and Hurricane bolter sponsons (with psybolt) does?
MarkCron wrote: @Leth, Have you also tried the SR with the hb, assault cannon combo? Keen to hear people who have experience with that, cos I've only just assembled mine and haven't got a game in with it yet.
It'd be great if people could let me know their experiences how a GK SR, with HB, Assault cannons and Hurricane bolter sponsons (with psybolt) does?
Are the sponsons worth it?
Shreds infantry. Take the sponsons. Those 6 twin-linked bolters? Yeah, they're essentially Heavy Bolters firing (str 5). It's a pretty deadly flying platform that's both expensive and shreds any infantry (weight of fire) and light vehicles. This and the Fire Raptor are the only two flyers that can put out this weight of destructive firepower on a durable frame.
The problem is that if you are doing that you want to go full psybolt ammo and side guns. However at that point the storm raven is like 250+ points. There are plenty of other places you can get anti infantry fire power quite easily without the large investment.
However that is a personal preference for my current list, and I am building my second storm raven in that kit out(other than multi-melta instead of heavy bolter because machine spirit)
The reason I was saying 5 man squads was because of the carrying capacity of Razorbacks because it will be only one dedicated transport for each unit of GKSS so you would need to take only 5 unless you only put 5 in the psyback on hold the others in reserve...can you even do that? I mean you have to combat squad before the battle begins but essentially could you take a 10 man GKSS with a Razorback, combat squad them, send 5 into battle in the Razorback and hold the other 5 in DS? That would be a killer strategy if it is possible.
As others have said, you can definitely do that. But, it gets (a bit) better. If you take a squad of 10 purifiers, you can take 4 incinerators, plus give the rest halberds plus a seasoning of hammers to taste. Then combat squad them. Now you have two squads of 5, each with 2 incinerators, a hammer and a couple of halberds. (or any mix thereof you like).
Now, you can put both squads in the same SR or LR/C/R....That means that you can:
a) Assault 2 different units, casting cleansing flame for each assault; or
b) Have 2 squads assault the same unit, casting cleansing flame twice (need to make sure you have warp charge for this);
Alternatively, you can put one combat squad into say a LRC/R, and put the other one in a SR. And, for maximum hilarity, take a GM and grand strategy the Purifier unit (before you combat squad).
Course, you can do the same trick with a Rhino, but imo if you are going to spend the points for purifiers, give them something they can assault out of.
Sample list for a pure GK army (no henchmen) in the spoiler.
Leth wrote: The problem is that if you are doing that you want to go full psybolt ammo and side guns. However at that point the storm raven is like 250+ points. There are plenty of other places you can get anti infantry fire power quite easily without the large investment.
However that is a personal preference for my current list, and I am building my second storm raven in that kit out(other than multi-melta instead of heavy bolter because machine spirit)
Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to as well. If I'm going to pay 20pts for psybolt ammo, I wanted to have as many guns as possible and use psybolts everywhere. But multi melta seems like a good option as well.... can't decide
I magnetised my Raven sponsons and turret (also so I could remove the wings for storage). It wasn't as bad as I thought, so PM me if you want some pics.
Honestly I am more of a fan of 5 man purifier units in rhinos with two psycannons. They can cast cleaning flame, as well as fire both psycannons out of the hatch. If the rhino gets destroyed, meh. until it does its giving you a relatively cheap warp charge.
Or even if you dont put them inside, still another warp charge and you are gonna need those for GKs.
Interestingly, maelstrom missions seem to do a lot to mitigate GKs mobility problems. In the few games of 7th I've played so far, it seems like opponents have been forced to advance across the board with their mobile units, and turn 1 assaults are absolutely possible if you go second, even with footslogging units. If you concentrate infantry deployment to coincide with objectives placed in no-man's-land, you can more or less guarantee engagement in turn 1. Even against slower armies, the general GK 24" range limit rarely leaves us without targets anymore. Everyone is forced to spread out and try to gain board control. Castling is no longer a thing (at least in maelstrom missions). Whereas before you might have been faced with a hard defensive nut to crack, now an enemy will have to get out there and risk our shooting and assault.
I really think GKs (as one of the most adaptable factions) have what it takes to dominate maelstrom missions. You need a very flexible list and sound-to-excellent understanding of the units and tactics you're up against, but as top-level generalists, GKs can win.
All my losses in 7th can be easily put down to mistakes on my part, rather than an enemy's impenetrable strategy or 'bad rolling', and I haven't come up against any units that couldn't be dealt with or effectively ignored.
Maybe that's always been the case with GKs, but I'm a 1 year novice.
I would be very interested to hear about strategies Vs. Specific factions. Units to watch out for, units to ignore etc. without being specific to tactics. Just a general feeling when going up against a certain faction.
For example:
Against Daemons: A great matchup for us thanks to all out Daemon-specific special rules. Our grenades make all daemons(and psykers) I1, and preferred enemy is a huge boost in hitting AND wounding (don't forget it works in overwatch). A lot of T3 troop choices make our troops with psybolts ideal for cleaning them off objectives. Coteaz attached to a good shooty unit is huge, and with a bit of luck can take out whole deep striking units as they arrive. You can't really go wrong with sanctic powers, and remember to get hammerhand and force off on any units near a monstrous creature. You should habe enough WC to neutralise a significant chunk of their psychic powers. If they're going daemon factory; try to take out those key units early.
Daemons have a mobility advantage, but as stated above, you can let them come to you.
Watch out for daemonettes in cc due to their rending attacks!
Really, if you remember all the special advantages we have over daemons, you'll be hard-pressed to go wrong.
I'd be interested to hear about strategies for dealing with green tide orks and mechanised AM.
a) Put penetrating hits onto all the vehicles ASAP. Remember that quantum shielding only works on F/S, so back shots are 11 all the time. Once you get a penetrating hit, move onto the next one. It is much easier to kill an AV 11 vehicle.
b) Put the whole squad down. If you are going to shoot at a Necron squad, keep shooting until the entire unit is down. Otherwise you'll be wasting your time, particularly if it is warriors and ghost arks are around.
c) Do not think invisibility will protect you from Anni Barges. It won't. TL tesla can stack shots onto flyers and invisible units.
d) In combats, get at least two models into B2B with anything with mindshackle scarabs.
e) Your vehicles are dead. Dead, dead, dead. That includes Landraiders. Good news is that they will probably end up wrecked rather than explode. Plan accordingly and always position so you get useful cover from the wreck.
f) Deathmarks have rapid fire rending sniper rifles. They are dangerous even if you aren't marked.
g) All necron skimmers are open topped so we can assault out of them. But, most of the time, they won't. Beware Ghost arks with lords or overlords in them, especially if the warriors don't shoot.
h) If you see Zandhrek, remember he can take away hit and run. He can also give the blob furious charge or counter attack. Oh, and tank hunters. And stealth. Also, the necron player can bring in deep striking reserves on YOUR turn. They can't shoot or move, but if they get lucky, they can contest the objective.
And now, a GK question : Orbital Strike Relay - seems like you can get multiple goes at this as long as the firer doesn't move. Is it worth it?
And now, a GK question : Orbital Strike Relay - seems like you can get multiple goes at this as long as the firer doesn't move. Is it worth it?
Not usually, unless you are tailoring vs hoard on foot. The OSR is not accurate enough (always scatters full 2d6) to justify it's cost, and the units that can take it are either already very expensive and put to better use elsewhere (Grand Master, brother captain) or are competing for your FOC slots with better choices (tech marine). Either way, you're paying a minimum of 140 pts for a model that can't do a lot else and might not do anything at all.
Actually, now that list tailoring is totally a valid thing to do in 7th, my answer should be: yes, if you're facing a hoard foot army.
I find the thing with GK list building is to try to find ways of using units that they're already good at without upgrades, or only with the best value upgrades (like psybolt). That way you can mitigate our greatest weakness (few models) by getting more boots on the board.
And now, a GK question : Orbital Strike Relay - seems like you can get multiple goes at this as long as the firer doesn't move. Is it worth it?
Not usually, unless you are tailoring vs hoard on foot. The OSR is not accurate enough (always scatters full 2d6) to justify it's cost, and the units that can take it are either already very expensive and put to better use elsewhere (Grand Master, brother captain) or are competing for your FOC slots with better choices (tech marine). Either way, you're paying a minimum of 140 pts for a model that can't do a lot else and might not do anything at all.
I remember when Techmarines are fun to take to get 2+ coversave ruins for shooty henchmen squads.. Then Heldrakes came along. :(
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)
I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.
Yet you fill them with a much more expensive squad!? Lol. Instead of a psyker and two bare acolytes you want to spend 15 points on a crusader and 14 points on one melta acolyte. 21 points more. (And if that three man henchmen squad doesn't go in the psyback, then you are WAY WAY WAY overpaying for a tiny squad that will still die quickly to a stiff breeze.
Envihon wrote: But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so.
5 Smurfs with a Melta in a Razorback is 130pts. 5 Strikes with a Psycannon in a Psyback is 160pts. Barely more expensive, and they get a bunch more for that increase.
Envihon wrote: I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die.
I garuantee those Marines will die. Have you forgotten 6th edition? People stopped talking massed Marines on foot because they were paying premiums for superior saves, but yet they were playing in a game where the firepower killed them just as easily as everything else. This hasn't changed! And as for survivability when considering points efficiency since you brought it up above, 5 Marines are as durable to small arms fire as 15 Henchmen, except 5 Marines cost 70pts and 15 Henchmen cost 6. Now given that you can only take 12 Henchmen per unit, however that is only 48pts, about 68% the cost, but have 80% the durability. The math would dictate that in a general environment the Henchmen are more cost efficient with regard to durability. And that's comparing to standard Marines; take Strikes who are 100pts standard and you get 80% the durability for less 48% the cost.
Envihon wrote: So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation?
See you are making silly assumptions here like you have to buy Psybolts. No decent player buys Psybolts for 5 man squads as the cost to effect ratio doesn't work out. For a 10 man squad it is fine, but don't assume people will give the exact same upgrades when scaling down.
Envihon wrote: For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas
I would guess from this statement that you started playing during 6th?
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)
ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's(ooops was thinking of my ghost arks ) *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?
I'm a big fan of having more bodies and your point on the extra 4 acolytes is perfectly valid. My point is that having the extra bodies may not enough when they still don't get an armour save. A flamer still ruins your day. What the extra bodies do provide is at least some hope that if miraculously only one model dies the unit won't break and run. Frankly, I don't care how people get the extra survivability as long as there is *some*.
Btw, I'm not saying that you shouldn't take 3 henchmen in a psyback. I think a couple are fine to boost your OS troops and to provide bait for the opponent to shoot at. What I'm saying is that it is poor tactics to build a list around spamming them where they are your only troop choice. Hell, for the cost of one HenchBack you can have 3 squads of 5 acolytes running around. If anything, I'd prefer that (assuming you have troop slots left). In fact, as a general tactic if you've paid the Coteaz tax anyway, consider always filling up your troop slots. For 27 points, you can have 3 groups of 3 acolytes running around. They *might* do something useful.
I just think that psybacks, while great value for the points aren't going to win you the game. They aren't going to live long enough. So, filling them with essentially a henchmen tax is pointless.
Yet you fill them with a much more expensive squad!? Lol. Instead of a psyker and two bare acolytes you want to spend 15 points on a crusader and 14 points on one melta acolyte. 21 points more. (And if that three man henchmen squad doesn't go in the psyback, then you are WAY WAY WAY overpaying for a tiny squad that will still die quickly to a stiff breeze.
Play much GK? Even in 6th Rhinos and razorbacks were necessary to keep the EVEN MORE expensive GKSS away from heldrakes etc, if only for a couple of turns. The vehicles are also useful as mobile (or immobile ) LOS blocking cover. So, paying a few extra points so that the henchmen inside can do something useful (or survives longer) once the vehicle dies isn't a waste. To repeat, use whatever method floats your boat to keep that henchmen squad alive longer. You only have 6 troop slots, with DT, thats 12. With Grand strategy, 3-6 more. If you waste the 6 troop slots on units of 3 henchmen, you're pushing it uphill.
In fact, given that Maelstrom (whatever variant is played) is a thing, it is MORE important that the OS troop unit survives. Objective secured is really, really valuable.
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)
ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?
How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)
Except that all those additional points beyond the minimum for the henchmen are taking away points that could be more usefully spent elsewhere. I dont know about you but I always find I need to cut points rather than having points to spare on frivalous stuff.
How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)
Yeah, I just corrected that post. Sorry, my Cron background slipped in there.
@leth, Agreed. The appropriateness of increasing Henchback squad sizes depends entirely on what the rest of the list contains. If you only have henchbacks, I say it is necessary. If you don't, henchbacks are fine.
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)
ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's(ooops was thinking of my ghost arks ) *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?
WOW. (I'm going to ignore your incredible credibility destroying jink mistake and focus on the other stuff). You are one of those intuitive minded folk who thinks with their "gut" aren't you? Nothing inherently wrong with that, but wrong in this context - number crunching is your friend in this game. Anyway I said nothing about spamming. I said your IDEAL (your words) loadout for a razorback squad is terrible. I responded specifically to this point. Your claim is so silly to me that I had to respond to it. Literally no competitive player would say your three man henchmen squad loadout is remotely a good one. And if you actually did the math you would know having a crusader is a horrendously bad idea as in almost every situation in that squad so it would be a WASTE OF POINTS. Competitive lists don't like to waste points.
I'm a big fan of having more bodies and your point on the extra 4 acolytes is perfectly valid. My point is that having the extra bodies may not enough when they still don't get an armour save.
. 1) Perfectly valid? But your specific 3 man squad is "ideal" allegedly. So which is it? 2) Do the math. A Crusader is a costly (in the context of cheap henchmen squads) points sink, that almost never benefits you for the points spent on it. Ditto the lone melta gun acolyte, although a bit less of a point sink. If you hope your lone melta acolyte is going to accomplish anything your game is already in big trouble.
What I'm saying is that it is poor tactics to build a list around spamming them where they are your only troop choice.
No. Just no. What you said to me, the whole reason I responded to you has nothing to do with spamming. I quoted what you said. That's the topic of discussion between you and I.
MarkCron wrote: I'm not saying people shouldn't take henchmen - given Coteaz's abilities and cost plus the cost of pure GK units I think they are required.
I'd suggest that ideal loadout for a psyback would be crusader, acolyte with melta, psyker. Has ability to threaten vehicles and the crusader at least has a 3++.
That's far from ideal. What does the crusader do, besides waste points? If you wanted a more durable squad, you could take 4 bare warrior acolytes for one point more than the cost of a single crusader. I'd take 4 guys over one guy. 3++ on a T3 model isn't so hot, a couple of bolter shots and he's dead.
Also, what's the point of one guy with a melta? Not reliable at all.
Well, it gives some sort of saving roll. 2 acolytes and a psyker don't get a save roll at all (well, apart from a cover save) assuming they get shot by, well, anything. Sure, the melta MAY not achieve anything, whereas not having one will DEFINITELY not achieve anything.
Wow, I'm just shaking my head here. You really think one crusader henchmen is a good thing to spend points on in a three man squad. I realize this thread is just titled tactics, but I assumed the idea was to have good tactics. Not point wasting nonsense. (Sidenote, crunch the numbers and compare 4 bare acolytes to one crusader as far as durability goes.)
ROFL! That's funny. Vehicles get a 4+ jink (which, btw, makes the HB less effective) and it's(ooops was thinking of my ghost arks ) *marginally* harder to explode them and suddenly the best tactic for GK is to spam psybacks with 3 henchmen in them? In an edition where being able to secure objectives EACH turn for 5 turns wins you the game?
WOW. (I'm going to ignore your incredible credibility destroying jink mistake and focus on the other stuff). You are one of those intuitive minded folk who thinks with their "gut" aren't you? Nothing inherently wrong with that, but wrong in this context - number crunching is your friend in this game. Anyway I said nothing about spamming. I said your IDEAL (your words) loadout for a razorback squad is terrible. I responded specifically to this point. Your claim is so silly to me that I had to respond to it. Literally no competitive player would say your three man henchmen squad loadout is remotely a good one. And if you actually did the math you would know having a crusader is a horrendously bad idea as in almost every situation in that squad so it would be a WASTE OF POINTS. Competitive lists don't like to waste points.
Well, firstly, thanks for ignoring the credibility destroying Jink mistake (which, by the way, means there is even less reason to mech up compared to 6th)
Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.
This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.
I'm a big fan of having more bodies and your point on the extra 4 acolytes is perfectly valid. My point is that having the extra bodies may not enough when they still don't get an armour save.
. 1) Perfectly valid? But your specific 3 man squad is "ideal" allegedly. So which is it? 2) Do the math. A Crusader is a costly (in the context of cheap henchmen squads) points sink, that almost never benefits you for the points spent on it. Ditto the lone melta gun acolyte, although a bit less of a point sink. If you hope your lone melta acolyte is going to accomplish anything your game is already in big trouble.
As I said above, the purpose of the crusader in my ideal squad is to get to roll a dice AT ALL. Your bodies points are valid, but not, imho, ideal, because you don't get to roll. They wound, you pick the models up.
As I said, I respect people's opinions and uses of mathhammer and across thousands of games you are probably correct. In reality, each D6 thrown has a 1/6 chance of being any number from 1-6. And with 3++, I have a 2/3 chance of saving. Without it, 0.
Re the meltagun, again, the purpose was simply to increase the chance of doing something. If I was spamming henchbacks, I'd take them.
What I'm saying is that it is poor tactics to build a list around spamming them where they are your only troop choice.
No. Just no. What you said to me, the whole reason I responded to you has nothing to do with spamming. I quoted what you said. That's the topic of discussion between you and I.
That comment a couple of pages ago was made in response to a comment that the standard build should be psyback, 2xacolyte, psyker. I agree that is A build, not a STANDARD build. In case you haven't noticed, GK army lists are appearing that have nothing but these "standard" builds as troops and those lists have some serious problems. I used the term ideal to try and combat that "standard". I should have specifically said "my ideal" but then again I would have thought that was obvious.
In practice everyone should tailor their henchmen builds to what they are trying to achieve. I've just put a list up in the army list forum, and in that list I take a henchback. Why? Because I need that psyback for a combat squadded GKSS unit. I also take 4 henchman squads with 2 acolytes, 1 psyker and no psyback. Why? Because I needed the warp charges to power cleansing flame for my scoring purifiers. I also have scoring GKSS, hopefully scoring DK - so in the game I really don't care that much if the henchmen get eliminated.
Imho, there appears to be a general perception that a "competitive" GK army is going to spam henchbacks. I think that perception is incorrect.
GK strengths are psycannons, psybolts, Grand strategy, Santic (although this is a bit more unreliable). Henchmen are a necessary evil because our main units are too costly. So, henchmen should be looked at as a supplement, not the basis for bolting a couple of GK units around.
How do vehicles get a 4+ jink again? (Unless you're a skimmer, but last I checked GK didn't have any skimmers...)
Yeah, I just corrected that post. Sorry, my Cron background slipped in there.
Well now, here's an idea for an Unbound list. GKSS in Ghost Arks.
Good god man, purifiers in Ghost Arks. Can you imagine that - GA pops the rhino, purifiers cleansing flame, shoot, then assault out of the Ark. Probably why we can't have anything open topped.
You know lately I've been thinking of allying GK with the Militarum Tempestus...
I have a 2 box of scions laying around unassembled, I could grab 2 Taurox cheap, slap augur arrays on that for a deepstike without scatter, give it scouting with Grand Strategy.
So we get a 36 inch move T1, easily taking control of midfield on T2 as the Taurox gets supported by no scatter deep striking units on T2.
Only problem is keeping the damn paper mache boxes alive that long...
Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.
This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.
Ugh. This is my problem. You didn't provide logic and reasoning. Not in a way that anyone can reasonably judge your argument. Sometimes a crusader is a waste and sometimes it is amazing? Yes and sometimes a las pistol can kill Draigo. The *key* is knowing how often. "Sometimes". is a vague weasel word that helps no one in list building. If a crusader is a waste of points 90% of the time, then certainly it shouldn't be part of an "ideal" henchman squad.
Now a third of the time a crusader is going to die to any wound whatsoever. But it costs almost 4 times as much as a bare acolyte. A bare acolyte has a 5+ save, a bare acolyte can also take cover saves. Simply put a crusader is almost 4 times as expensive as an acolyte but it is NOT 4 times as durable. Those are facts btw, much more helpful than saying 'sometimes.'
There, now I quantified your 'sometimes' for you. Doing a cost benefit analysis like this is a good idea so that you don't get enamored by the "sometimes it'll be amazing" fallacy.
Quickjager wrote: You know lately I've been thinking of allying GK with the Militarum Tempestus...
I have a 2 box of scions laying around unassembled, I could grab 2 Taurox cheap, slap augur arrays on that for a deepstike without scatter, give it scouting with Grand Strategy.
So we get a 36 inch move T1, easily taking control of midfield on T2 as the Taurox gets supported by no scatter deep striking units on T2.
Only problem is keeping the damn paper mache boxes alive that long...
Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?
Good god man, purifiers in Ghost Arks. Can you imagine that - GA pops the rhino, purifiers cleansing flame, shoot, then assault out of the Ark. Probably why we can't have anything open topped.
Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?
Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.
But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"
Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?
Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.
But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"
Technically, we could stick a GKSS in a Taurox, can't we? lol.
Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?
Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.
But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"
Technically, we could stick a GKSS in a Taurox, can't we? lol.
Very true, too bad we can't assault out of it on T1 because of the Scout rule, I guess we could stick a... purifier squad in it, shunt two DK up with them and on T2 deepstrike in the Termies or a Scion squad full of meltaguns.
Envihon wrote: But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so.
5 Smurfs with a Melta in a Razorback is 130pts. 5 Strikes with a Psycannon in a Psyback is 160pts. Barely more expensive, and they get a bunch more for that increase.
Envihon wrote: I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die.
I garuantee those Marines will die. Have you forgotten 6th edition? People stopped talking massed Marines on foot because they were paying premiums for superior saves, but yet they were playing in a game where the firepower killed them just as easily as everything else. This hasn't changed! And as for survivability when considering points efficiency since you brought it up above, 5 Marines are as durable to small arms fire as 15 Henchmen, except 5 Marines cost 70pts and 15 Henchmen cost 6. Now given that you can only take 12 Henchmen per unit, however that is only 48pts, about 68% the cost, but have 80% the durability. The math would dictate that in a general environment the Henchmen are more cost efficient with regard to durability. And that's comparing to standard Marines; take Strikes who are 100pts standard and you get 80% the durability for less 48% the cost.
Envihon wrote: So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation?
See you are making silly assumptions here like you have to buy Psybolts. No decent player buys Psybolts for 5 man squads as the cost to effect ratio doesn't work out. For a 10 man squad it is fine, but don't assume people will give the exact same upgrades when scaling down.
Envihon wrote: For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas
I would guess from this statement that you started playing during 6th?
I started playing at the end of 5th. I was originally going to play Daemonhunters until my friend told me to wait until the GK codex dropped since my original interest was in the Grey Knights themselves in the Daemonhunters. I only first picked up the Eldar in 6th though when I was getting bored of doing the same thing over and over so I took up the Eldar since they were the original army that got me interested in Warhammer 40k.
And the 5 man comment can now be redacted after I learned that with combat squading you can use the psybacks for only 5 of the GKSS and DS the rest in, not only giving the benefit of armor but also giving the advantage of DS. It's a strategy I may actually try to see how it works.
Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?
Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.
But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"
Technically, we could stick a GKSS in a Taurox, can't we? lol.
Very true, too bad we can't assault out of it on T1 because of the Scout rule, I guess we could stick a... purifier squad in it, shunt two DK up with them and on T2 deepstrike in the Termies or a Scion squad full of meltaguns.
Either way they're not assault vehicles or open-topped, so...
Envihon wrote: But what about the expense? SM can afford to make everything a parking lot because for them their troops are relatively cheap so to take a razorback is no big expense for them but for GK, that is less so.
5 Smurfs with a Melta in a Razorback is 130pts. 5 Strikes with a Psycannon in a Psyback is 160pts. Barely more expensive, and they get a bunch more for that increase.
Envihon wrote: I understand that people are now going to the henchman spam where they throw a few henchman into a psyback and call it a day but they won't last long when that gets cracked open and unlike marines who usually can survive an explosion, I guarantee those henchman are going to die.
I garuantee those Marines will die. Have you forgotten 6th edition? People stopped talking massed Marines on foot because they were paying premiums for superior saves, but yet they were playing in a game where the firepower killed them just as easily as everything else. This hasn't changed! And as for survivability when considering points efficiency since you brought it up above, 5 Marines are as durable to small arms fire as 15 Henchmen, except 5 Marines cost 70pts and 15 Henchmen cost 6. Now given that you can only take 12 Henchmen per unit, however that is only 48pts, about 68% the cost, but have 80% the durability. The math would dictate that in a general environment the Henchmen are more cost efficient with regard to durability. And that's comparing to standard Marines; take Strikes who are 100pts standard and you get 80% the durability for less 48% the cost.
Envihon wrote: So, stick GKSS in them but that will lower your overall troop count having to pay for the squad, psybolts for every 5 man instead of 10 man and the expense starts to rise real quick giving even us models than we usually have so do you take even less units to put them in tin cans or do what sea turtles do and take as many units as possible for target saturation?
See you are making silly assumptions here like you have to buy Psybolts. No decent player buys Psybolts for 5 man squads as the cost to effect ratio doesn't work out. For a 10 man squad it is fine, but don't assume people will give the exact same upgrades when scaling down.
Envihon wrote: For me, transports (except for the Eldar and their godly Wave Serpent) never worked for me and have only prevented me from taking more troops. That is my experience and I understand we all have different metas
I would guess from this statement that you started playing during 6th?
I started playing at the end of 5th. I was originally going to play Daemonhunters until my friend told me to wait until the GK codex dropped since my original interest was in the Grey Knights themselves in the Daemonhunters. I only first picked up the Eldar in 6th though when I was getting bored of doing the same thing over and over so I took up the Eldar since they were the original army that got me interested in Warhammer 40k.
And the 5 man comment can now be redacted after I learned that with combat squading you can use the psybacks for only 5 of the GKSS and DS the rest in, not only giving the benefit of armor but also giving the advantage of DS. It's a strategy I may actually try to see how it works.
Which actually comes first? Declaring Combat Squad or declaring how it's being deployed?
You have to declare which units are combat squading before you deploy your forces. 7th puts it out there as plain as day in the Preparing for Battle Section of deployment. It actually surprised me because it allows for something like only half showing up in a DT while the others DS but really, the only one who can take advantage of it is GKs as far as that is concerned. It also makes double assaults out of a LR or Storm Raven.
Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.
This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.
Ugh. This is my problem. You didn't provide logic and reasoning. Not in a way that anyone can reasonably judge your argument. Sometimes a crusader is a waste and sometimes it is amazing? Yes and sometimes a las pistol can kill Draigo. The *key* is knowing how often. "Sometimes". is a vague weasel word that helps no one in list building. If a crusader is a waste of points 90% of the time, then certainly it shouldn't be part of an "ideal" henchman squad.
Now a third of the time a crusader is going to die to any wound whatsoever. But it costs almost 4 times as much as a bare acolyte. A bare acolyte has a 5+ save, a bare acolyte can also take cover saves. Simply put a crusader is almost 4 times as expensive as an acolyte but it is NOT 4 times as durable. Those are facts btw, much more helpful than saying 'sometimes.'
There, now I quantified your 'sometimes' for you. Doing a cost benefit analysis like this is a good idea so that you don't get enamored by the "sometimes it'll be amazing" fallacy.
Sigh. Ok, couple of things.
First. My logic was clear...with the Crusader, I WILL get to roll a saving roll for the first wound - probability 100%. Without, probability is 0% (excluding cover). I have a 66% chance of surviving the first wound - you have 0%. I have a 66% chance of surviving EACH following wound. Yours - 0%.
Second. You didn't demonstrate that the Crusader wasn't 4 times as durable as an acolyte. In order to do that, you would have had to show the probability that the crusader would survive 4 wounds, (preferably with standard deviations). If you had done that, you would have found that the probability is NOT ZERO, it's around 20%. (2/3*2/3*2/3*2/3)
If you are going to throw mathhammer around, please, try and use it semi properly.
I think what you were trying to say is that IN YOUR OPINION and ASSUMING COVER, you don't think that the Crusader is a worthwhile addition. For you, the opportunity of rolling the dice to make a save is not worth the additional points. Fine.
IN MY OPINION and ASSUMING NO COVER, the crusader is worth it because I at least get to roll to save my objective secured troop unit that is currently contesting the objective and stopping the opponent winning by 1 point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on topic though, what do people think about StormRavens vs Dreadknights? or LR for that matter.
A fully decked out SR is about 255 points (with psybolts, TLAC, TLMM and sponsons). A DK is 260 pts with Heavy incinerator, Sword and Teleporter. LRC is 255 stock iirc.
If you already had one DK in your list and the choice of either a SR or LR, which would people take?
Second, I clearly understand that many people believe in mathhammer and accept that many people mathhammer lists to death. My "gut" is fairly practical though. As I'm not going to roll average dice in every dice roll of the game, the most important thing is actually getting to roll a dice AT ALL. Which is something the crusader does ALL THE TIME because it is a 3++, but increasing bodies with 5+ armour saves doesn't. Note, I'm not saying it will be effective and protect that useless 3 man squad ALL the time, just that it will work some of the time. Sometimes it will fail dismally, and sometimes it will be amazing.
This is a GK tactics thread, not a mathhammer one, so I'm not going to debate the advantages/disadvantages of mathhammer here. I've provided my logic and reasoning, you've provided yours and people can now make up their own minds.
Ugh. This is my problem. You didn't provide logic and reasoning. Not in a way that anyone can reasonably judge your argument. Sometimes a crusader is a waste and sometimes it is amazing? Yes and sometimes a las pistol can kill Draigo. The *key* is knowing how often. "Sometimes". is a vague weasel word that helps no one in list building. If a crusader is a waste of points 90% of the time, then certainly it shouldn't be part of an "ideal" henchman squad.
Now a third of the time a crusader is going to die to any wound whatsoever. But it costs almost 4 times as much as a bare acolyte. A bare acolyte has a 5+ save, a bare acolyte can also take cover saves. Simply put a crusader is almost 4 times as expensive as an acolyte but it is NOT 4 times as durable. Those are facts btw, much more helpful than saying 'sometimes.'
There, now I quantified your 'sometimes' for you. Doing a cost benefit analysis like this is a good idea so that you don't get enamored by the "sometimes it'll be amazing" fallacy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on topic though, what do people think about StormRavens vs Dreadknights? or LR for that matter.
A fully decked out SR is about 255 points (with psybolts, TLAC, TLMM and sponsons). A DK is 260 pts with Heavy incinerator, Sword and Teleporter. LRC is 255 stock iirc.
If you already had one DK in your list and the choice of either a SR or LR, which would people take?
It depends really, if you are running a shunting alpha strike list, a second DK is essential. I know because I have been running that with only one DK and the DK gets shot up a lot. Having a second makes them sweat a little more, and is more target saturation because they may take down one DK but there is still a second one stomping around in their backyard flaming with a torrent str 6 flamer and their CC is well enough to take care of any problem vehicles. In a non-shunting alpha strike list with one DK, I would prefer the Storm Raven just for air support in case of flyers and then it still provides the function of a LR. Also, GKs don't get a lot of skyfire options outside of a Aegis Defense Line and the Storm Raven so since the Storm Raven is essentially a flying LR with Armor 12, the Storm Raven brings more to the table for it's point cost.
If you already have one DK in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Stormraven in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Land Raider in your army army, you should take another.
You have a higher survivability of your Big Box units when you double-down on them, rather than mixing a matching. You take a DK and a SR? DK is dead before SR arrives. You take a LR and a DK? The closer one will get focused down. You take two LRs? Both LRs have four times the survivability due to the need to either ignore one to kill the other, or split resources to deal with both. Same is true with 2 DKs or 2 SRs (if both are on the table at the same time). Doubling a Big Box unit not only double its output, it squares it's survivability.
jeffersonian000 wrote: If you already have one DK in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Stormraven in your army, you should take another. If you already have a Land Raider in your army army, you should take another.
You have a higher survivability of your Big Box units when you double-down on them, rather than mixing a matching. You take a DK and a SR? DK is dead before SR arrives. You take a LR and a DK? The closer one will get focused down. You take two LRs? Both LRs have four times the survivability due to the need to either ignore one to kill the other, or split resources to deal with both. Same is true with 2 DKs or 2 SRs (if both are on the table at the same time). Doubling a Big Box unit not only double its output, it squares it's survivability.
SJ
Damn, I was afraid someone was going to say that. Makes sense.
I set my list up so I have waves of attacks - T1, DK and interceptors, T2 Purifiers, T3, Raven. My hope is that this, combined with Maelstrom missions, means that I'm mitigating the effect that you describe. Course, it is probably equally valid to argue that my plan is just serving up thirds of my army in pieces.
Practically, the problem is that I only have one of SR/LR but I do have 3 DK.
The SR has appeal because of the anti air - I'm not a big fan of the ADL and Quad (particularly in 7th). If I switch out the SR for another DK, what other options are there to use for anti air? Prescienced Psycannons is what I normally use, but that is a bit hit and miss.
I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....
I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.
Leth wrote: I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....
I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.
That's what I thought. I run 2x DK+Tele+Heavy Incinerator... And these are huge points sinks.
Leth wrote: I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....
I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.
That's what I thought. I run 2x DK+Tele+Heavy Incinerator... And these are huge points sinks.
Not really; 'points sink' generally implies that they don't make those points back.
If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?
The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.
Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?
Belac Ynnead wrote: If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?
The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.
Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?
I probably sound like a broken record advocating this at this point but... Knight Errant. He goes well with 2 DKs and provides the anti-tank GKs lack.
Ha, I've actually stumbled onto that solution myself. Holy crap though, the Knight AND two DKs? I run one Knight and no DK's and I already feel like I have no points left for regular grey knights.
The SR has appeal because of the anti air - I'm not a big fan of the ADL and Quad (particularly in 7th). If I switch out the SR for another DK, what other options are there to use for anti air? Prescienced Psycannons is what I normally use, but that is a bit hit and miss.
Yeah, I think you're on the right track with the anti-air advantage of the SR. Plus, they don't compete for HS slots with the DK.
The only real anti-air option not mentioned yet is the Psyfleman Dread: Dual TL Autocannon with Psybolts. About the same output as Prescienced Psycannons, but instead of rending you get +1S.
Also don't forget if you plan on firing Psycannons at flyers you should fire them at Heavy4; you're going to be snapfiring anyway, why not move 6" while you're at it.
Belac Ynnead wrote: If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?
The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.
Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?
I probably sound like a broken record advocating this at this point but... Knight Errant. He goes well with 2 DKs and provides the anti-tank GKs lack.
I think one storm raven is enough, if you have enough threats on the table, it can reliably survive most interceptor fire. I shifted mine to Lascannon multi-melta and I really like the concentrated firepower(if I could actually hit that is another story......). I think the bolter sponson variant has some merit, but its tough when for the number of points required I could almost get a henchmen squad in a razorback that are both OS.
I throw a disposable OS unit in it and throw it on my skyshield. Skyshield brings so much to the army its ridiculous. Starting a raven on the table, 4+ invul(that combines with sanctuary I might add).
Remember that ADLs with Aegis Guns are going to be far less common now, with the change in Interceptor+Skyfire rule now being that it can only snapshot ground targets. How many armies will take a 100-ish point fortification in the in-case they face off against a flyer (really, there are only ~4 armies with flyers that you would see in a competitive setting: Vendettas, Storm Ravens, Doom/Night Scythe, Heldrake)
Belac Ynnead wrote: If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?
The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.
Has anyone tried allied sternguard with combi-meltas for a more effective alpha strike? They can slag the land raider or whatever, and then the shunting units can burn the contents. Has anyone had any success with space marine allies? Or is it just another points sink?
I probably sound like a broken record advocating this at this point but... Knight Errant. He goes well with 2 DKs and provides the anti-tank GKs lack.
Yup. I run this. Major threat saturation.
I have been thinking of running a Knight Errant for a long time because of the lack of anti-armor the GKs bring. I have been going back and forth about whether I want it to be an Errant or a Paladin. Two shots with a large blast STR 8 AP 3 weapon is pretty devastating even with the less punch to a vehicle. It seems pretty common for GK players to go with the Errant though. I just want something that I could take with my Imperial Fists though and I have plenty of anti-armor with the Devastator Centurions with TL Lascannon and Missile Launcher but if everyone is going armor, it might not be a bad thing. So Errant is pretty much the way to go?
Also, I do run my GK with Imperial Fist allies and it works awesome. I have a Tactical Squad with a melta and combi-melta in a Drop Pod that helps with my Alpha Strike and then an Imperial Fist Librarian sits back to support the Devastator Centurion squad in the back. It works quite wonderfully with GK and SM complimenting each other well. I have also ran Eldar in 6th with them and that definitely was useful especially in an Alpha Strike army and since they stayed Allies of Convenience, I suspect that hasn't changed. I haven't tried the Eldar with my GK in 7th quite yet but when I did in 6th, it was 2 Jetbike squads with one of them having a Farseer on a Jetbike attached to it and then a Wave Serpent with Fire Dragons in it. That also worked wonderfully especially with anti-armor, capturing objectives as well as killing infantry.
First. My logic was clear...with the Crusader, I WILL get to roll a saving roll for the first wound - probability 100%. Without, probability is 0% (excluding cover). I have a 66% chance of surviving the first wound - you have 0%. I have a 66% chance of surviving EACH following wound. Yours - 0%.
Second. You didn't demonstrate that the Crusader wasn't 4 times as durable as an acolyte. In order to do that, you would have had to show the probability that the crusader would survive 4 wounds, (preferably with standard deviations). If you had done that, you would have found that the probability is NOT ZERO, it's around 20%. (2/3*2/3*2/3*2/3)
If you are going to throw mathhammer around, please, try and use it semi properly.
I think what you were trying to say is that IN YOUR OPINION and ASSUMING COVER, you don't think that the Crusader is a worthwhile addition. For you, the opportunity of rolling the dice to make a save is not worth the additional points. Fine.
IN MY OPINION and ASSUMING NO COVER, the crusader is worth it because I at least get to roll to save my objective secured troop unit that is currently contesting the objective and stopping the opponent winning by 1 point.
Dude! What is with you man? You’ve got three main problems:
1) Your attitude - you have the AUDACITY to say I need to use math hammer ‘properly’ (as if I didn’t), when you EMBARRASSINGLY trotted out the hopelessly vague and totally useless “sometimes it works!” defense earlier? You said absolutely NOTHING about numbers, or even rough probabilities earlier. I point this out and you get an attitude about it (instead of apologizing). That is WEAK SAUCE.
2) Problem 2. The fact that your “ideal” squad idea is a points wasting bad plan, which no competitive player would agree with, nor would people like me who are semi-competitive at best, and
3) The fact that your points wasting squad, is not even an ideal squad for the number of points you spend on it. Most blatantly in that you think a Crusader is a good idea rather than a bunch of bare acolytes for the same points.
Now, 1 doesn’t really concern me much, though I had to point out your bad attitude. 2 is where your argument completely and utterly falls apart. 2 is what I have not touched on much because well, you seem obsessed with defending your crusader idea which is 3). But even in this thread no one is agreeing with you on 2. Your idea is just not points efficient. It is wasteful. The tiny increase in survivability does not warrant the increase in points. Ditto for the **tiny** increase in offensive shooting capability.
Now onto 3. That at the points spent (note we shouldn’t be spending this much, but for 3 let’s assume you have to spend it) your “ideal” squad still falls short. A Crusader is only three times as durable as an acolyte (out in the open, with no cover, with AP5 weapons or better), but get this, it is almost 4 times as expensive. 3 times as durable, almost 4 times as expensive. That’s not a good deal and guess what that’s the BEST case scenario. If you have AP – weapons, or cover is involved the Crusader comes out even worse. So IF you wanted to waste points on buffing a little razorback squad (which remember from #2 is a terrible idea), if you wanted to do this wasteful-ness, then a Crusader is STILL not ideal. Ok?
But really, 3 here is moot because you shouldn’t be spending that many points on the squad in the first place. In conclusion, you are spending too much on the squad, which you shouldn’t be, and you aren’t even spending them in the least bad way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Belac Ynnead wrote: If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider ...
Not saying this is ideal lol because it isn't, but there's always henchmen. 3 MM Servitors in a chimera for example. Obviously you'd need an inquisitor to ride along but the 3 MM guys are 30 points total so that's nice at least. And then of course 2-3 warrior acolytes with melta guns I'm either a rhino or chimera (or razorback if you want them to jump out suicide style).
For heavy mech lists though allying in some drop pod marines would get the vehicle busting weapons in the right place more quickly though at greater points cost...
Belac Ynnead wrote: If you're not using DK to go kill heavy armor in combat, what other options are there for us? A one off vindicare shot that you hope blows something up before he gets squished? Daemon Hammers on interceptors? A Stormraven or Landraider with MM?
The problem is that all of those options except the vindicare are 2nd turn solutions. It seems like it makes shunt lists largely ineffective if you're going against a heavily armored opponent.
Realistically most answers to Land Raiders in the game are turn 2 solutions at best. Only Wraithknights and Drop Pods are likely to have a real shot in turn 1.
Leth wrote: Any attempt to try and make a slightly offense based henchman squad is killed by that BS 3.....or mindlock.
Hard time justifying anything beyond a acolyte banisher and psyker at most.
How bout DCAs, psyker, maybe additional char in stormraven or LR?
Or a dedicated meltasquad for tank-hunting? Or are those points better spent on allies with melta?
O sure, I got a squad in the works that is like
4-5 DCA, 3-4 Crusaders, and a psyker in a storm raven. Problem is that I find the Henchmen squad from Inquisition is so much better(see priests) but I cant get any.
So I am thinking of trying the following unit in a Storm Raven - 3 crusader, 6, deathcult, 1 psyker and some character depending on powers(or no character at all). Should be able to blender anything not T6+ or Armor 2+, I have enough answers for armor 2+ that I am not too worried.
Response to SuperNewb spoilered so the thread doesn't get off track.
Spoiler:
Super Newb wrote:
Dude! What is with you man? You’ve got three main problems:
1) Your attitude - you have the AUDACITY to say I need to use math hammer ‘properly’ (as if I didn’t), when you EMBARRASSINGLY trotted out the hopelessly vague and totally useless “sometimes it works!” defense earlier? You said absolutely NOTHING about numbers, or even rough probabilities earlier. I point this out and you get an attitude about it (instead of apologizing). That is WEAK SAUCE.
Firstly, you didn't use mathhammer properly. You said that the crusader would fail its saving throw 1/3 of the time, then leaped to the incorrect conclusion that because the Crusader was 4 time more expensive it wasn't worth it. You then used another logical leap to claim this quantified the "sometimes it works" comment. Also incorrectly.
But, I fixed that for you. There is a 19% chance that a crusader will get a 3+ on 4 consecutive dice (or will save 4 wounds over the game).
For EACH set of 4 wounds taken, there is a 19% chance that you will save them all. If only 3 wounds are taken 29% to save them all, 2 wounds 44%, 1 wound 66%. Assuming no cover, in all cases your proposed squad will take 100% of wounds. Following a single wound, there is a 33% chance your OS unit will run.
Now you have mathhammer (of a sort - huge number of variables still missing) to justify the "sometimes it works". Happy?
Super Newb wrote:2) Problem 2. The fact that your “ideal” squad idea is a points wasting bad plan, which no competitive player would agree with, nor would people like me who are semi-competitive at best, and
This is laughable. Unless you have double cad, you only have 6 troop slots. Lets assume for the sake of generosity that you have elected to entirely fill these slots with Henchbacks. The potential increase in survivability costs you 72 points. You can't use these points to add more troop units - your slots are filled. With the points, you could get a solodin, or an inquisitor. Neither of those is OS. You can spread the points for more bling. You could, instead, buy 18 more naked acolytes, which conveniently fits into the Henchbacks. However, excluding cover, your entire squad of now 6 still gets no saves, but the enemy has to score 2 wounds to make it run. It is now twice as hard to hide.
About the only thing weaker than a psyback I can think of is the side armour of a Chimera (which is actually stronger on the front) or anything DE. So your competitive/semi-competitive master plan is to put your entire maelstrom OS scoring capability into Henchbacks? At least put the henchmen into Chimeras (and face forward!!) so the Psyker and acolyte can shoot out of it.
Super Newb wrote:
Now, 1 doesn’t really concern me much, though I had to point out your bad attitude. 2 is where your argument completely and utterly falls apart. 2 is what I have not touched on much because well, you seem obsessed with defending your crusader idea which is 3). But even in this thread no one is agreeing with you on 2. Your idea is just not points efficient. It is wasteful. The tiny increase in survivability does not warrant the increase in points. Ditto for the **tiny** increase in offensive shooting capability.
Fair enough, I can live without meltaguns on the acolytes. Note, however, that *tiny* increase is around 20%, depending on range.
Super Newb wrote:Now onto 3. That at the points spent (note we shouldn’t be spending this much, but for 3 let’s assume you have to spend it) your “ideal” squad still falls short. A Crusader is only three times as durable as an acolyte (out in the open, with no cover, with AP5 weapons or better), but get this, it is almost 4 times as expensive Against AP5 or better weapons and assuming no cover, the Crusader has to save 4 wounds in order to be as points efficient as an acolyte. There is only a 20% chance of this. 3 times as durable, almost 4 times as expensive. That’s not overly efficient. If you have AP – weapons, or cover is involved the Crusader comes out even worseI deleted this, as you have no basis for comparing this. The chance of a crusader saving 4 wounds doesn't change if there is cover, because 3+ is more likely to save than 4+. I think you mean it is less points efficient because the acolyte has a saving throw?
I fixed your mathematical error and logical leap for you.
Leth wrote:I wouldnt take a DK without a sword unless I was running them naked. But then I wouldnt be running them naked so....
I am running mine with sword and teleport. I just cant find the points for a ranged weapon. But that is fine as I have plenty of other places for flamers.
So, presumably you have a couple of DK in the list then? I'm curious as to how you use these, without a ranged weapon don't you eat a lot of shooting in the turn you shunt? I assume your shunt is placed so that nothing really nasty can assault you?
Also, re your other comment on the Skyshield if you start the Raven on the Skyshield, can you hover and something assault out of it T1?
SkrawnyNob wrote:
The SR has appeal because of the anti air - I'm not a big fan of the ADL and Quad (particularly in 7th). If I switch out the SR for another DK, what other options are there to use for anti air? Prescienced Psycannons is what I normally use, but that is a bit hit and miss.
Yeah, I think you're on the right track with the anti-air advantage of the SR. Plus, they don't compete for HS slots with the DK.
The only real anti-air option not mentioned yet is the Psyfleman Dread: Dual TL Autocannon with Psybolts. About the same output as Prescienced Psycannons, but instead of rending you get +1S.
Also don't forget if you plan on firing Psycannons at flyers you should fire them at Heavy4; you're going to be snapfiring anyway, why not move 6" while you're at it.
Good thoughts. I stopped using psyflemen in 6e because they died really fast, might have to reconsider.
Its really inconvenient that Psykers can't cast blessings while embarked. Otherwise prescienced psycannons would be the way to go i reckon.
Separate question - The interaction between the Grand Strategy and Combat Squads is a little unclear. Per combat squads you have to decide to do that before warlord traits are decided. Grand Strategy kicks in "At the start of the game, before forces are deployed". I think this combination means I can use Grand Strategy to make a unit of purifiers scoring, then combat squad them. Comments? Also, if I make the Purifier scoring, does their DT get OS? I think the answer is no because GS can't be applied to vehicle models, but not sure.
I am actually using grey knights as my allied right now, but back in the day(5th) I used to run a Mordrak Bomb with two shunting Dreadknights and a unit of interceptors. All of these would be in their deployment turn one, and they had 1 turn to deal with it before I was deleting units.
Also yes you can assault out of the storm raven turn one, however unless they advance it is not possible to be in assault range.
PSyfulman are crazy good in 7th. What killed them was not the 6th edition rules, but rather the lack of transports on the table. With those making a return I think they will do quite well. I would be running them myself if I had the autocannons.
Personally right now I am running my dreadknight by itself as a dedicated CC defense unit as well as objective/relic grabber. As such it allows me to save the shunt for later in the game. If you give it objective secured and keep that shunt in your back pocket it forces your opponent to limit his moves, especially when going second. I just added a henchmen and a unit of crusaders and DCAs to go in the storm raven as a second counter assault unit.
On a side note one thing that someone taught me a little bit ago is that "The later in the game it gets, the more durable your units will be"
What that means is that as the game progresses your opponent is going to have less and less that can kill any particular unit. So instead of shunting forward on that first turn where you are basically giving them 1-2 targets for all their short to mid range weaponary(such as bolters, plasmaguns, meltas, etc), make them choose with their long range stuff while you are picking away at their army. Then once the third turn comes around rush with everything while their ability to kill stuff is depleted. If you shunt forward their entire squad gets to fire, if you sit back only the long range gets to fire. Give them the minimum returns while still maintaining a threat radius.
I had a game this week where I incorporated 12pt squads of 3 naked acolytes. I'm not sure if they're the cheapest unit in the game, but if you have coteaz anyway, they must be the cheapest superscoring unit.
Anyways, they just sat on the objectives in my deployment zone (out of LOS to avoid giving up First Blood too easily) and waited to see if their card came up (which it did), freeing up my army to get on with the game.
Of course they turn to vapour if the opponent looks at them sternly, but they scored 2 VP and turned a close game into a secure victory.
They died, but a 300 point unit had to take a turn out of their day to deal with each of them. If they hadn't, they would have scored an additional 2 VP.
During list building (and if you're using coteaz anyway) 24pts is enough to fulfil your troop requirement if you don't want to take strikes or termies.
I love these guys! Their benefits outweigh their costs by so much. They must be the best value unit in the codex.
Incidentally, if unbound is your thing, you could take 116 of these units in a 1500 pt list and still have enough left over to bring coteaz. Your opponent won't be able to deal with that many separate units. 'Course, they won't be killing much with their laspistols, but they'll score objectives for you! Lol.
The 3 psykers join centurionstar. Tiggy is usually a given invisibility. Next it's important to fish for gate. With servoskulls and 6 mystics you have a lot of option for secure gating around the table.
Leth wrote: Any attempt to try and make a slightly offense based henchman squad is killed by that BS 3.....or mindlock.
Well if you are doing a mech list, and your Inquistor HQ has to go somewhere, why not give him 3 MM servitors to ride along with (and then cheap acolytes) ? 30 points for 3 guys with 3 MM ain't bad. I'm curious where else Coteaz would go if not in a vehicle...
As for acolyte 'spam' BS 3 is of course not as good as the BS4 of marines, but one could play 'Imperial Guard Lite' and run around with cheap henchmen squads inside chimeras or rhinos. Not the best thing in the world, but it is an option. Though if I were going to run a couple weenie henchmen squads in chimeras I would probably take plasma acolytes instead, for the range boost and rapid fire option. Though then they would only be good at hitting light transports...
Hard time justifying anything beyond a acolyte banisher and psyker at most.
Banisher doesn't help against most armies so that is out.
MarkCron wrote: Response to SuperNewb spoilered so the thread doesn't get off track.
Spoiler:
Super Newb wrote:
Dude! What is with you man? You’ve got three main problems:
1) Your attitude - you have the AUDACITY to say I need to use math hammer ‘properly’ (as if I didn’t), when you EMBARRASSINGLY trotted out the hopelessly vague and totally useless “sometimes it works!” defense earlier? You said absolutely NOTHING about numbers, or even rough probabilities earlier. I point this out and you get an attitude about it (instead of apologizing). That is WEAK SAUCE.
Firstly, you didn't use mathhammer properly. You said that the crusader would fail its saving throw 1/3 of the time, then leaped to the incorrect conclusion that because the Crusader was 4 time more expensive it wasn't worth it. You then used another logical leap to claim this quantified the "sometimes it works" comment. Also incorrectly.
But, I fixed that for you. There is a 19% chance that a crusader will get a 3+ on 4 consecutive dice (or will save 4 wounds over the game).
For EACH set of 4 wounds taken, there is a 19% chance that you will save them all. If only 3 wounds are taken 29% to save them all, 2 wounds 44%, 1 wound 66%. Assuming no cover, in all cases your proposed squad will take 100% of wounds. Following a single wound, there is a 33% chance your OS unit will run.
Now you have mathhammer (of a sort - huge number of variables still missing) to justify the "sometimes it works". Happy?
Super Newb wrote:2) Problem 2. The fact that your “ideal” squad idea is a points wasting bad plan, which no competitive player would agree with, nor would people like me who are semi-competitive at best, and
This is laughable. Unless you have double cad, you only have 6 troop slots. Lets assume for the sake of generosity that you have elected to entirely fill these slots with Henchbacks. The potential increase in survivability costs you 72 points. You can't use these points to add more troop units - your slots are filled. With the points, you could get a solodin, or an inquisitor. Neither of those is OS. You can spread the points for more bling. You could, instead, buy 18 more naked acolytes, which conveniently fits into the Henchbacks. However, excluding cover, your entire squad of now 6 still gets no saves, but the enemy has to score 2 wounds to make it run. It is now twice as hard to hide.
About the only thing weaker than a psyback I can think of is the side armour of a Chimera (which is actually stronger on the front) or anything DE. So your competitive/semi-competitive master plan is to put your entire maelstrom OS scoring capability into Henchbacks? At least put the henchmen into Chimeras (and face forward!!) so the Psyker and acolyte can shoot out of it.
Super Newb wrote:
Now, 1 doesn’t really concern me much, though I had to point out your bad attitude. 2 is where your argument completely and utterly falls apart. 2 is what I have not touched on much because well, you seem obsessed with defending your crusader idea which is 3). But even in this thread no one is agreeing with you on 2. Your idea is just not points efficient. It is wasteful. The tiny increase in survivability does not warrant the increase in points. Ditto for the **tiny** increase in offensive shooting capability.
Fair enough, I can live without meltaguns on the acolytes. Note, however, that *tiny* increase is around 20%, depending on range.
Super Newb wrote:Now onto 3. That at the points spent (note we shouldn’t be spending this much, but for 3 let’s assume you have to spend it) your “ideal” squad still falls short. A Crusader is only three times as durable as an acolyte (out in the open, with no cover, with AP5 weapons or better), but get this, it is almost 4 times as expensive Against AP5 or better weapons and assuming no cover, the Crusader has to save 4 wounds in order to be as points efficient as an acolyte. There is only a 20% chance of this. 3 times as durable, almost 4 times as expensive. That’s not overly efficient. If you have AP – weapons, or cover is involved the Crusader comes out even worseI deleted this, as you have no basis for comparing this. The chance of a crusader saving 4 wounds doesn't change if there is cover, because 3+ is more likely to save than 4+. I think you mean it is less points efficient because the acolyte has a saving throw?
I fixed your mathematical error and logical leap for you.
Yeah, that fact that you think a discussion of your "ideal" henchmen squad, otherwise known as the least ideal squad possible, is off track in a thread about GK tactics, says it all. You again just revealed to everyone incredibly bad judgment. Squad composition is off topic in a tactics thread? Um, wut?
I don't like spoilers, or your attitude, so I am not even going to look what you wrote inside the 'spoiler' tag. Good day and good riddance.
Enigwolf wrote: Remember that ADLs with Aegis Guns are going to be far less common now, with the change in Interceptor+Skyfire rule now being that it can only snapshot ground targets. How many armies will take a 100-ish point fortification in the in-case they face off against a flyer (really, there are only ~4 armies with flyers that you would see in a competitive setting: Vendettas, Storm Ravens, Doom/Night Scythe, Heldrake)
Skyfire still works against skimmers right? I'm sure Wave Serpents, Devilfish and Annihilation Barges won't like an Icarus Lascannon around.
Tyfus wrote: What are people thinking of the 1850 armylist that team stomping ground just used in their latest video battlereports ?
Will struggle against some list. But seems pretty solid.
Neat idea! I wonder how it would fare against a 'rhino rush' list. Or a horde list. The deathstar is super powerful but it it only kills far less powerful and far less expensive units each term that's not good. So yeah definitely would struggle against some lists...
Leth wrote: Any attempt to try and make a slightly offense based henchman squad is killed by that BS 3.....or mindlock.
Well if you are doing a mech list, and your Inquistor HQ has to go somewhere, why not give him 3 MM servitors to ride along with (and then cheap acolytes) ? 30 points for 3 guys with 3 MM ain't bad. I'm curious where else Coteaz would go if not in a vehicle...
As for acolyte 'spam' BS 3 is of course not as good as the BS4 of marines, but one could play 'Imperial Guard Lite' and run around with cheap henchmen squads inside chimeras or rhinos. Not the best thing in the world, but it is an option. Though if I were going to run a couple weenie henchmen squads in chimeras I would probably take plasma acolytes instead, for the range boost and rapid fire option. Though then they would only be good at hitting light transports...
The problem is that the cost for an acolyte with a gun is just too high. For one acolyte with a melta I can almost get another squad. I will take a warp charge per turn thank you very much. The inquisitor could do so much more buffing other units, so that isnt an option either. The problem is that for the points there are much better things out there. God if only Jokaero were about 10-15 points cheaper I could justify them, but not right now.
Hard time justifying anything beyond a acolyte banisher and psyker at most.
Banisher doesn't help against most armies so that is out.
Actually the thing is about the banisher that for tournament play for the few points it costs the amount of benefit it provides is worth it, since one of the armies I am concerned about is daemons it shuts down their 2+ re-roll, or other defenses on a lot of their warlords so I think having 1-2 in a list is not a bad idea. It gives you options, also with summoning possibilities it might come up more often. Plus in a razorback you can move it next to one unit, fire everything, then flat out next to another unit that you might be assaulting that turn.
Zimko wrote:
Enigwolf wrote: Remember that ADLs with Aegis Guns are going to be far less common now, with the change in Interceptor+Skyfire rule now being that it can only snapshot ground targets. How many armies will take a 100-ish point fortification in the in-case they face off against a flyer (really, there are only ~4 armies with flyers that you would see in a competitive setting: Vendettas, Storm Ravens, Doom/Night Scythe, Heldrake)
Skyfire still works against skimmers right? I'm sure Wave Serpents, Devilfish and Annihilation Barges won't like an Icarus Lascannon around.
Wave serpents, Devilfish, etc arent really scared of a single icarus lascannon. They will just jink for a 3+ or better cover and just not care for that one unit. You need volume of fire across as many platforms as possible to get as many of them as you can to jink each turn.
Enigwolf wrote: Remember that ADLs with Aegis Guns are going to be far less common now, with the change in Interceptor+Skyfire rule now being that it can only snapshot ground targets. How many armies will take a 100-ish point fortification in the in-case they face off against a flyer (really, there are only ~4 armies with flyers that you would see in a competitive setting: Vendettas, Storm Ravens, Doom/Night Scythe, Heldrake)
Skyfire still works against skimmers right? I'm sure Wave Serpents, Devilfish and Annihilation Barges won't like an Icarus Lascannon around.
Icarus Lascannons weren't as points-effective as the autocannons in 6th ed, and certainly aren't now either.
In any case, anyone have any creative/stronger unit builds/stars now that we are BB with Armies of the Imperium? Like, idk, sticking a Draigowing in a Stormeagle Roc or something.
Leth wrote: The problem is that the cost for an acolyte with a gun is just too high. For one acolyte with a melta I can almost get another squad. I will take a warp charge per turn thank you very much. The inquisitor could do so much more buffing other units, so that isnt an option either. The problem is that for the points there are much better things out there. God if only Jokaero were about 10-15 points cheaper I could justify them, but not right now.
Yeah no argument there. For very competitive play it is better to use those points to pay for two and a half acolytes elsewhere. And poor Jokaeros. I think they're hilarious and I do include one from time to time but I know they are definitely not points efficient.
Leth, what do you end up doing with the Inquisitor usually? Where do you put him?
Actually the thing is about the banisher that for tournament play for the few points it costs the amount of benefit it provides is worth it, since one of the armies I am concerned about is daemons it shuts down their 2+ re-roll, or other defenses on a lot of their warlords so I think having 1-2 in a list is not a bad idea. It gives you options, also with summoning possibilities it might come up more often. Plus in a razorback you can move it next to one unit, fire everything, then flat out next to another unit that you might be assaulting that turn.
Again, good points. I wonder though if spamming them is a good idea (as in including them in every henchmen squad you have). The points spent on them adds up real quick and is useless against many armies...
The Gate to Centfinity sounds awesome and hilarious. I did not realize you could gate out of CC. I imagine it working like Nightcrawler jumping around backstabbing people, but nightcrawler never had a two-legged tank suit!
Also much more powerful in 7th than I first thought since you can cast witchfire powers against several different units and then shoot & assault yet another unit.
Leth, what do you end up doing with the Inquisitor usually? Where do you put him?
Again, good points. I wonder though if spamming them is a good idea (as in including them in every henchmen squad you have). The points spent on them adds up real quick and is useless against many armies...
I like to throw him with a deathcult squad. I have the psyker in the squad take (edit divination so he has a chance to get prescience off with them(as well as give me dat mandatory warp charge. Ideally I would want to take the inquisitor and most likely not both making him a caster and give him both the grenades(as well as take those sweet sweet servo skulls).
As to the banishers. I am only planning on taking 1, maybe 2 at most depending on size of the game. Its a small investment that could really swing a game.
Leth, what do you end up doing with the Inquisitor usually? Where do you put him?
Again, good points. I wonder though if spamming them is a good idea (as in including them in every henchmen squad you have). The points spent on them adds up real quick and is useless against many armies...
I like to throw him with a deathcult squad. I have the psyker in the squad take telepathy so he has a chance to get prescience off with them(as well as give me dat mandatory warp charge. Ideally I would want to take the inquisitor and most likely not both making him a caster and give him both the grenades(as well as take those sweet sweet servo skulls).
As to the banishers. I am only planning on taking 1, maybe 2 at most depending on size of the game. Its a small investment that could really swing a game.
This. It's a 15 point investment that invalidates a bajillion point deathstar. Plus it's nice and fluffy. Although with sanctic powers reducing invuln saves, it's probably less important.
Banisher. Has preferred enemy(daemons) and any daemon unit within 6 has to re-roll invul saves(remember this will be measured from the vehicle hull). Costs 3.5 acolytes and is a henchmen.
Leth, what do you end up doing with the Inquisitor usually? Where do you put him?
Again, good points. I wonder though if spamming them is a good idea (as in including them in every henchmen squad you have). The points spent on them adds up real quick and is useless against many armies...
I like to throw him with a deathcult squad. I have the psyker in the squad take telepathy so he has a chance to get prescience off with them(as well as give me dat mandatory warp charge. Ideally I would want to take the inquisitor and most likely not both making him a caster and give him both the grenades(as well as take those sweet sweet servo skulls).
As to the banishers. I am only planning on taking 1, maybe 2 at most depending on size of the game. Its a small investment that could really swing a game.
This. It's a 15 point investment that invalidates a bajillion point deathstar. Plus it's nice and fluffy. Although with sanctic powers reducing invuln saves, it's probably less important.
I will take a guaranteed thing any day(especially with the number of dice daemons have) as well as the fact that it can get range on a few units, and then can flat out to get to a different unit after I am done shooting one of them. Also no reason you cant reduce invul saves AND make them re-roll/cancel out re-roll
The 3 psykers join centurionstar. Tiggy is usually a given invisibility. Next it's important to fish for gate. With servoskulls and 6 mystics you have a lot of option for secure gating around the table.
Since I love the idea is this I looked at it again. Is this list legal? The ultramarine allies only have one troop instead of two unless I'm missing something
Anyway I wonder if a non-PT dread knight would help a list like that. Certainly could deep strike with ease.
There's nothing wrong with foot Knights. I used to run one and whereas the aid of the Teleporter is immense in a lot of situations, two foot Knights can work so as long as they are operating under a similarly paced list.
Yeah, that fact that you think a discussion of your "ideal" henchmen squad, otherwise known as the least ideal squad possible, is off track in a thread about GK tactics, says it all. You again just revealed to everyone incredibly bad judgment. Squad composition is off topic in a tactics thread? Um, wut?
Ok, fair point. As you can't be bothered to click on a spolier, wall of text follows. Please note that you are the one who started with the attitude, also note that your maths are wrong.
Super Newb wrote:
Dude! What is with you man? You’ve got three main problems:
1) Your attitude - you have the AUDACITY to say I need to use math hammer ‘properly’ (as if I didn’t), when you EMBARRASSINGLY trotted out the hopelessly vague and totally useless “sometimes it works!” defense earlier? You said absolutely NOTHING about numbers, or even rough probabilities earlier. I point this out and you get an attitude about it (instead of apologizing). That is WEAK SAUCE.
Firstly, you didn't use mathhammer properly. You said that the crusader would fail its saving throw 1/3 of the time, then leaped to the incorrect conclusion that because the Crusader was 4 time more expensive it wasn't worth it. You then used another logical leap to claim this quantified the "sometimes it works" comment. Also incorrectly.
But, I fixed that for you. There is a 19% chance that a crusader will get a 3+ on 4 consecutive dice (or will save 4 wounds over the game).
For EACH set of 4 wounds taken, there is a 19% chance that you will save them all. If only 3 wounds are taken 29% to save them all, 2 wounds 44%, 1 wound 66%. Assuming no cover, in all cases your proposed squad will take 100% of wounds. Following a single wound, there is a 33% chance your OS unit will run.
Now you have mathhammer (of a sort - huge number of variables still missing) to justify the "sometimes it works". Happy?
Super Newb wrote:2) Problem 2. The fact that your “ideal” squad idea is a points wasting bad plan, which no competitive player would agree with, nor would people like me who are semi-competitive at best, and
This is laughable. Unless you have double cad, you only have 6 troop slots. Lets assume for the sake of generosity that you have elected to entirely fill these slots with Henchbacks. The potential increase in survivability costs you 72 points. You can't use these points to add more troop units - your slots are filled. With the points, you could get a solodin, or an inquisitor. Neither of those is OS. You can spread the points for more bling. You could, instead, buy 18 more naked acolytes, which conveniently fits into the Henchbacks. However, excluding cover, your entire squad of now 6 still gets no saves, but the enemy has to score 2 wounds to make it run. It is now twice as hard to hide.
About the only thing weaker than a psyback I can think of is the side armour of a Chimera (which is actually stronger on the front) or anything DE. So your competitive/semi-competitive master plan is to put your entire maelstrom OS scoring capability into Henchbacks? At least put the henchmen into Chimeras (and face forward!!) so the Psyker and acolyte can shoot out of it.
Super Newb wrote:
Now, 1 doesn’t really concern me much, though I had to point out your bad attitude. 2 is where your argument completely and utterly falls apart. 2 is what I have not touched on much because well, you seem obsessed with defending your crusader idea which is 3). But even in this thread no one is agreeing with you on 2. Your idea is just not points efficient. It is wasteful. The tiny increase in survivability does not warrant the increase in points. Ditto for the **tiny** increase in offensive shooting capability.
Fair enough, I can live without meltaguns on the acolytes. Note, however, that *tiny* increase is around 20%, depending on range.
Super Newb wrote:Now onto 3. That at the points spent (note we shouldn’t be spending this much, but for 3 let’s assume you have to spend it) your “ideal” squad still falls short. A Crusader is only three times as durable as an acolyte (out in the open, with no cover, with AP5 weapons or better), but get this, it is almost 4 times as expensive Against AP5 or better weapons and assuming no cover, the Crusader has to save 4 wounds in order to be as points efficient as an acolyte. There is only a 20% chance of this. 3 times as durable, almost 4 times as expensive. That’s not overly efficient. If you have AP – weapons, or cover is involved the Crusader comes out even worseI deleted this, as you have no basis for comparing this. The chance of a crusader saving 4 wounds doesn't change if there is cover, because 3+ is more likely to save than 4+. I think you mean it is less points efficient because the acolyte has a saving throw?
I fixed your mathematical error and logical leap for you.
Just generally, I am a big fan of henchmen squads and also of Coteaz, because it opens up way more points to be used for more effective units in our Elite, FA or HS slots. This advantage is a two edged sword though.
Lets assume you take 6 henchbacks, to maximise your number of OS troops (henchmen) and DT (psybacks).
Now, consider these facts:
a) None of these units can glance a drop pod, let alone penetrate it. So, you just created a new hard counter to your maelstrom scoring ability. They put a drop pod within 3" of an objective and they can contest it for the whole game. Not to mention that whatever was in it is almost certain to be able to kill your troop. That means, in order to get rid of the drop pod, you have to devote a 100+ point units shooting (or assault) to kill it. If your entire Troop FOC can't kill a single drop pod, how effective can the rest of your list be when it is doing troop slot duties?
b) Over the course of a game, A single ghost ark with 5 warriors can take out your entire troop FOC, including the psybacks, by itself, and there is literally nothing you can do about it with your troops. So again, your elite units are being forced into the role of "troops".
c) 40k is a dice game. We can blather on about averages etc, but the reality is that unless you get to roll a dice at all, these odds don't kick in. So, in some instances, paying a point tax to be able to roll a dice at all enables something to happen. More importantly, it creates doubt in the mind of the opponent - "that squad *might* kill that drop pod" and so it forces a reaction or (hopefully) an overcommitment.
GK have a lot of challenges, Psychic got nerfed, a lot of our cool codex powers disappeared (particularly psychic barrage), we don't have a lot of dedicated, cheap AT in an edition where MSU is looking to come back. Plus our vehicles got the smallest advantage possible (and let's be realistic, rhino chassis vehicles aren't hard to stop).
I think in reality, everyone really should take Coteaz in a competitive list. But, as other posters have said, 3 acolytes walking has the same OS effect as a henchback and costs 12 points. The key is to make sure that the henchback squad is designed in such a way that it complements, not detracts from the rest of the list.
And, seriously consider Chimeras....Front 12 is excellent because it creates the same problem for the opponent that we have with drop pods. If you have enough of them, you can protect the side reasonably well, and the Psyker can witchfire (and the acolyte can shoot) out the firing points.
MarkCron wrote: Lets assume you take 6 henchbacks, to maximise your number of OS troops (henchmen) and DT (psybacks).
Now, consider these facts:
a) None of these units can glance a drop pod, let alone penetrate it. So, you just created a new hard counter to your maelstrom scoring ability. They put a drop pod within 3" of an objective and they can contest it for the whole game. Not to mention that whatever was in it is almost certain to be able to kill your troop. That means, in order to get rid of the drop pod, you have to devote a 100+ point units shooting (or assault) to kill it. If your entire Troop FOC can't kill a single drop pod, how effective can the rest of your list be when it is doing troop slot duties?
All else aside (and for the record I think ye are both acting like children), if this is your stance on things then I think you have the wrong idea about how 40k works and how to win the game. It's not the job of Troops to kill Troops, it's the job of whatever has the ability to deal with. Similarly, it's the job of the unit equipped to deal with a Drop Pod to kill a Drop Pod; trying to force a role onto a unit because of what slot it takes is a little bizarre. All slots really decide tactically is who is best to go for the objectives, and that is the role of Troops. Why do you need your Troops to kill Drop Pods when your Dreads can do it for them? Looking at units in a vacuum while also misallocating their ideal role will never lead to a good outcome.
For the record, the whole point in Henchmen is to keep the roles divided, so that your OS units are as cheap as possible so you can load up the rest of the list with the killy stuff like Purifiers and Dreadnoughts.
Lets assume you take 6 henchbacks, to maximise your number of OS troops (henchmen) and DT (psybacks).
Now, consider these facts:
a) None of these units can glance a drop pod, let alone penetrate it.
MarkCron wrote: Ok, fair point. As you can't be bothered to click on a spolier, wall of text follows. Please note that you are the one who started with the attitude, also note that your maths are wrong.
Wow, just wow. Apparently you don't understand what 'good day' or 'good riddance' means. I'm still not bothering with you chief. Good luck in life.
My bad, I usually forget the whole psybolt thing even in games
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
All else aside (and for the record I think ye are both acting like children), if this is your stance on things then I think you have the wrong idea about how 40k works and how to win the game. It's not the job of Troops to kill Troops, it's the job of whatever has the ability to deal with. Similarly, it's the job of the unit equipped to deal with a Drop Pod to kill a Drop Pod; trying to force a role onto a unit because of what slot it takes is a little bizarre. All slots really decide tactically is who is best to go for the objectives, and that is the role of Troops. Why do you need your Troops to kill Drop Pods when your Dreads can do it for them? Looking at units in a vacuum while also misallocating their ideal role will never lead to a good outcome.
For the record, the whole point in Henchmen is to keep the roles divided, so that your OS units are as cheap as possible so you can load up the rest of the list with the killy stuff like Purifiers and Dreadnoughts.
I think you've slightly misinterpreted what I said, or I didn't say it clearly. The point being debated was the benefit of putting a meltagun on an acolyte. My view is that a 10pt investment can be worthwhile, as it means that I don't have to move and dedicate psycannons to do the same job.
And, keeping OS units as cheap as possible is great, as long as they survive the game. If not, well, you are putting a greater load on your list, because non os units have to clear a 3" space to be able to claim it.
To add on to Godless-Mimicry, for the record, every time each of you prefaces your long-arse posts with a personal attack, I glaze and skip over the rest. And I'm quite sure that I'm not the only one.
I also think that at this point in time, each of us have our own very different and unable-to-be-reconciled viewpoints, which may be a result of our local metas, really. So can we agree to disagree, and return to the awesome tactics discussion we were having before?
I really want to know if anyone else is running any GK chars with BB units, or BB chars in GK units.
@Enigwolf, I have been thinking about Coteaz a bit and wondering if BB allies might be a place to put him. Generally, in 6e, I'd take prescience every time, stick him in a rhino with a squad with a pair of psycannons (or on a Quad Gun) and be done with it.
Now that you can't cast blessings within a vehicle, I'm wondering what to do. I've been toying with the idea of taking a SW ally with a rune priest and a couple of sets of GH in pods and sticking him in one of those pods. Rather than prescience, I'm thinking that telepathy might be the way to go, because he'll be forward deployed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other thing I found myself wishing for the other day was a tanking, assault oriented IC with non terminator 2+ armour to go with purifiers. I can do it with a SW rune priest, but he's only got 2 wounds.
MarkCron wrote: Does the centurion star have hit and run? That would make more sense. Otherwise you'd be in trouble if you got tarpitted I reckon?
Nope don't have it since you need ultramarine chapter to get Tigurius.
If you get gate of infinity you dont need hit and run. You can gate out of close combat.
Really out of close combat. I don't have the rulebook with me.
I remember they FAQed it once in a former edition such that gating out of cc was no longer possible. But this was a few years ago.
There's no limitation now. The old faq is gone. In the latest FAQ for ETC for 7.ed it's faqed that you can gate out of cc, but not gate if you have gone to ground or units that were pinned.
Does the wording of GS allow you to scout a Taurox?
Eeeh under previous edition rules where GK didn't have any Battle Brothers I would have said no, because buffs cannot affect allies. But this edition I would say yes because by the wording "under his command" would infer he's the warlord of the army, and the Imperium is Battle bros with anyone else in the Imperium. That it further states the specific units that it CANNOT effect, which doesn't include allies.
But like I said the make or break line is "under his command"
The GWGKFAQ 7ed says that grand strategy only works on "units in this Detachment with the Grey Knights Faction"
The other thing I found myself wishing for the other day was a tanking, assault oriented IC with non terminator 2+ armour to go with purifiers. I can do it with a SW rune priest, but he's only got 2 wounds.
Any recommendations?
Ally in iron hand or white scar, and get the chapter master with bike, arificier armour, shield eternal and power fist. The CM will either have IWD or hit and run. If you want him in a transport that don't take bikes, drop the bike.
Well, I wouldn't take any ally detachment in a GK army.
GK has all the means to deal an army at every threat range like incinerators, psycannons, and autocannons.
Moreover, there are cheap units for scoring, giving warp charges, and dakka (Psybacks).
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I wouldn't take any ally detachment in a GK army.
GK has all the means to deal an army at every threat range like incinerators, psycannons, and autocannons.
Moreover, there are cheap units for scoring, giving warp charges, and dakka (Psybacks).
GK can generate a tremendous number of warp charges. GK can field a lot of psykers. But can it use them as optimally as an allied psyker could? Well, no, because Tigirius is so gosh darn ridiculous. He's almost guaranteed to get whatever psychic power he wants. Wouldn't it be worth it to field him and the tiniest space marine troop choice you can take just to get an almost certain Invisibility to use with your GK forces? I would say yes.
Leth wrote: I am runninc\g coteaz in my centurions, I also am potentially throwing my librarian in my henchmen squads depending on powers in zee storm raven.
Something tells me that Coteaz in a Centurion Devastator squad is going to ruin the day of anything that deepstrikes within range of his ability...
Leth wrote: I am runninc\g coteaz in my centurions, I also am potentially throwing my librarian in my henchmen squads depending on powers in zee storm raven.
Something tells me that Coteaz in a Centurion Devastator squad is going to ruin the day of anything that deepstrikes within range of his ability...
So far, I've found that this works more as an 'exclusion zone' which enemies will actively avoid deep striking in to. It's a great idea to combine coteaz with a shooty, less cc oriented unit for that reason. Although the 'I've been expecting you' rule only gives you a 12" bubble from the model and not the unit, which is a shame. But yeah, with deep striking being more common, and after the loss of warp quake, coteaz is just so ridiculously underpriced. Expect that to change, people! (His bubble will burst)
Leth wrote: I am runninc\g coteaz in my centurions, I also am potentially throwing my librarian in my henchmen squads depending on powers in zee storm raven.
Something tells me that Coteaz in a Centurion Devastator squad is going to ruin the day of anything that deepstrikes within range of his ability...
So far, I've found that this works more as an 'exclusion zone' which enemies will actively avoid deep striking in to. It's a great idea to combine coteaz with a shooty, less cc oriented unit for that reason. Although the 'I've been expecting you' rule only gives you a 12" bubble from the model and not the unit, which is a shame. But yeah, with deep striking being more common, and after the loss of warp quake, coteaz is just so ridiculously underpriced. Expect that to change, people! (His bubble will burst)
In the past, I've actually found this to be deadly effective against droppod armies. They have the choice to drop in front of your gunline, or in and get shot by his squad. Considering that my Coteaz squad before packed 3 Jokaero and 3 Plascannon Servitors, it was rather painful.
Possibly pair coteaz up with a 4 psycannon purgation squad? Camping within running distance of a backfield objective marker? Kind of asking to be assaulted though.
I'm wondering what to do with Coteaz in a list. If we run MSU and he's just in a transport that seems like a waste (he can only use witchfires and his special I've been expecting you doesn't work from inside a transport). If he's out of a transport, he needs to be with something tough. Granted I am no tactical genius, but the most competitive thing I can think of, which was already mentioned, is putting him with Tigirius and some Centurions. Nothing our GK codex has can put out as much hurt as Centurions can in shooting (and nothing in our GK codex almost guarantees Invisibility like Tigirius does).
Paladins are pretty tough, but their shooting output isn't nearly as scary. What to do what to do...
Leth wrote: I am runninc\g coteaz in my centurions, I also am potentially throwing my librarian in my henchmen squads depending on powers in zee storm raven.
Something tells me that Coteaz in a Centurion Devastator squad is going to ruin the day of anything that deepstrikes within range of his ability...
This is exactly what I am doing with my Imperial Fist allies and it has worked wonderfully. I have said it a good amount of times, Space Marine allies being Battle Brothers now is more than enough to make up for the few holes that the GK suffer from. My Centurions have TL Lascannon and Missile Launchers and not Grav Cannons but that is to help with punching through armor and to take advantage of Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics.
Hey guys, been keeping tab's on this thread, and i am relatively new to GK'S. I have read in this thread quite a few time's about "Shunting" just wanted some clarification on what that is exactly? Thanks!
urbanevil wrote: Hey guys, been keeping tab's on this thread, and i am relatively new to GK'S. I have read in this thread quite a few time's about "Shunting" just wanted some clarification on what that is exactly? Thanks!
Dreadknights and Interceptors have personal teleporters which add 'jump' to their unit type (see BRB) in addition to allowing a once-per-game 'shunt' move of 30".
Edit:- DKs don't automatically come with their PT, you have to pay. Interceptors do.
That's another thing I struggle with! Using Interceptors versus using some allies with drop pods. I know shunting and a drop pod is not exactly the same, but I often wonder if having drop pod allies is better than taking interceptors. Both can do an 'alpha strike.' The pods can even do it better with a bunch of combi-weapon marines. Or for about the same level of alpha-strike-yness as Interceptors, I can pod in a unit of Grey Hunters, which ends up being A LOT cheaper than purchasing the unit of Interceptors (almost 200 points versus almost 300 points!). So I'm torn.
ductvader wrote: It's less good by far...effective 36"-54" S5 stormbolters are insane.
That's 300 points for 10 marines though. Who die out in the open just like other 15 point marines. 30 points per marine is a lot to pay for marines. Now maybe my tactics with them aren't ideal, heck forget maybe, they aren't, but still, they're pretty much double the cost of other marines.
ductvader wrote: It's less good by far...effective 36"-54" S5 stormbolters are insane.
That's 300 points for 10 marines though. Who die out in the open just like other 15 point marines. 30 points per marine is a lot to pay for marines. Now maybe my tactics with them aren't ideal, heck forget maybe, they aren't, but still, they're pretty much double the cost of other marines.
And their purpose is completely different than that of normal marines. they're there to continue to pepper everything with bolter fire while remaining mobile. Drop marines are pretty much decided stranded once they land. Foot Marines in general are designed to hold a position. GKs are meant to press forward, press hard, and continue to win even when you have half as many models. The thing about PAGK is that in order to play them really well, you have to be an intelligent player. It doesn't just come down to points.
EDIT: I also commonly run mine with 2 psycannons, which is just glorious.
ductvader wrote: It's less good by far...effective 36"-54" S5 stormbolters are insane.
That's 300 points for 10 marines though. Who die out in the open just like other 15 point marines. 30 points per marine is a lot to pay for marines. Now maybe my tactics with them aren't ideal, heck forget maybe, they aren't, but still, they're pretty much double the cost of other marines.
And their purpose is completely different than that of normal marines. they're there to continue to pepper everything with bolter fire while remaining mobile. Drop marines are pretty much decided stranded once they land. Foot Marines in general are designed to hold a position. GKs are meant to press forward, press hard, and continue to win even when you have half as many models. The thing about PAGK is that in order to play them really well, you have to be an intelligent player. It doesn't just come down to points.
at your hopefully accidental implication that I am a moron. Anyway, their purpose in a 'shunt-punch' type of list is the same as a drop pods unit's purpose. Doing damage right away. An alpha strike and then an annoyance in turns following. Continuing to "win even when you have half as many models" is a noble goal, but doesn't sound like efficient list building to me. Your 30 point marines, who have no transport, die, unless they go completely out of LOS, they die just as easily as 15-18 point marines do. That sounds like shooting oneself in the foot to me. 10 Grey Hunters, with two meltaguns and a drop pod is 185 points for example. Are the Interceptors 150+% as good as them (115 points more)? I don't think so really. Heck with that pod you have two OS units too.
What is the benefit of taking a great sword over 2 doom fists. Im planning on adding a DK to my list that also includes a Knight Errant.
This was the intended loadout: Dread Knight - w/ teleporter, doomfists, incinerator
Does a Greatsword make this unit better ? and how
It makes it better by allowing rerolls. But it isn't IMHO worth the points. You're paying 235 for your DK already, adding the sword will make it that much more expensive...
I'm new at 40k, but I've tried greatswords in both my games of 7th, so here's my thoughts:
Greatsword lets you reroll failed to hit and to wound/ AP rolls.
At my store, opinion is split on whether greatsword gives you str 10 or str 6. There's a (to my mind inconclusive) YMDC thread on this, so I won't attempt to answer it here. I'll go over both cases.
If str 10, it is an obvious increase in accuracy. Vs vehicles, you generally destroy them in a round.
If str 6, it is advantageous when fighting T3 or using force (rerollable ID attacks), or when coupled with hammerhand vs t4 (rerollable ID attacks).
Leth wrote: I am runninc\g coteaz in my centurions, I also am potentially throwing my librarian in my henchmen squads depending on powers in zee storm raven.
Something tells me that Coteaz in a Centurion Devastator squad is going to ruin the day of anything that deepstrikes within range of his ability...
This is exactly what I am doing with my Imperial Fist allies and it has worked wonderfully. I have said it a good amount of times, Space Marine allies being Battle Brothers now is more than enough to make up for the few holes that the GK suffer from. My Centurions have TL Lascannon and Missile Launchers and not Grav Cannons but that is to help with punching through armor and to take advantage of Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics.
Hmm. Grav cannons work great those high-toughness, 2+ save units thought. What was the thought process for MLs over grav?
kooshlord wrote:I'm new at 40k, but I've tried greatswords in both my games of 7th, so here's my thoughts:
Greatsword lets you reroll failed to hit and to wound/ AP rolls.
At my store, opinion is split on whether greatsword gives you str 10 or str 6. There's a (to my mind inconclusive) YMDC thread on this, so I won't attempt to answer it here. I'll go over both cases.
If str 10, it is an obvious increase in accuracy. Vs vehicles, you generally destroy them in a round.
If str 6, it is advantageous when fighting T3 or using force (rerollable ID attacks), or when coupled with hammerhand vs t4 (rerollable ID attacks).
Apologies if I'm totally in error here.
I thought this was settled ages ago that it's Str 10?
ductvader wrote: It's less good by far...effective 36"-54" S5 stormbolters are insane.
That's 300 points for 10 marines though. Who die out in the open just like other 15 point marines. 30 points per marine is a lot to pay for marines. Now maybe my tactics with them aren't ideal, heck forget maybe, they aren't, but still, they're pretty much double the cost of other marines.
You're also packing 10 Force Weapons and 2 psychic levels (combat squad them), and S5 shooting over S4, twice as many shots at 12-24", and hammer of wraith.
I like running them with either 2 psycannons and a daemon hammer (leaving the hammer in one squad, and the cannons in the other), or just 2 hammers (1 for each combat squad).
10 guys with 3+ save I find survives as well as 5 guys with a 2+ save (you're more survivable vs AP1/AP2, and just as survivable vs AP4 or worse).
Another option, if terrain is right, is a beta strike. If you can advance hidden for a turn, the shunt can give you shots on rear armor.
Force + 1 daemon hammer will scare the piss out of a wraithknight/riptide, and you've got the speed to chase them down.
I ask my opponents about it beforehand. I've had different opponents interpret it different ways. I've found the upgrade useful under both interpretations, given that you have access to both force and hammerhand. Points efficient, perhaps not. If something needs to die RIGHT NOW, I have trouble finding a better solution for the cost, given I'd field a dreadknight anyway.
I ask my opponents about it beforehand. I've had different opponents interpret it different ways. I've found the upgrade useful under both interpretations, given that you have access to both force and hammerhand. Points efficient, perhaps not. If something needs to die RIGHT NOW, I have trouble finding a better solution for the cost, given I'd field a dreadknight anyway.
One guy disagreeing with the rest of the thread doesnt make it 'inconclusive'
I am running mine with just greatsword right now. Still a pretty big threat, I can always deep strike him if I need to get across the board and is a great counter assault element for my allied blob.
Much more points efficient and makes it so I can work in more shooting in the form of psyfulman dreads and a storm raven.
Leth wrote: I am runninc\g coteaz in my centurions, I also am potentially throwing my librarian in my henchmen squads depending on powers in zee storm raven.
Something tells me that Coteaz in a Centurion Devastator squad is going to ruin the day of anything that deepstrikes within range of his ability...
This is exactly what I am doing with my Imperial Fist allies and it has worked wonderfully. I have said it a good amount of times, Space Marine allies being Battle Brothers now is more than enough to make up for the few holes that the GK suffer from. My Centurions have TL Lascannon and Missile Launchers and not Grav Cannons but that is to help with punching through armor and to take advantage of Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics.
Hmm. Grav cannons work great those high-toughness, 2+ save units thought. What was the thought process for MLs over grav?
kooshlord wrote:I'm new at 40k, but I've tried greatswords in both my games of 7th, so here's my thoughts:
Greatsword lets you reroll failed to hit and to wound/ AP rolls.
At my store, opinion is split on whether greatsword gives you str 10 or str 6. There's a (to my mind inconclusive) YMDC thread on this, so I won't attempt to answer it here. I'll go over both cases.
If str 10, it is an obvious increase in accuracy. Vs vehicles, you generally destroy them in a round.
If str 6, it is advantageous when fighting T3 or using force (rerollable ID attacks), or when coupled with hammerhand vs t4 (rerollable ID attacks).
Apologies if I'm totally in error here.
I thought this was settled ages ago that it's Str 10?
The purpose of taking the Lascannons over the Grav weapons is that the Lascannons take advantage of the Tank Hunter Chapter Tactic of the Imperial Fists while the Grav weapons don't. It is the same logic as taking the Missile Launchers over the Hurricane Bolters. Also, taking TL Lascannons and Missile Launchers gives me a lot more range than the Grav Cannon and Hurricane Bolters which only have 24" range, letting me set down my Centurions with Coteaz, and/or the Imperial Fist Librarian to rain anti-armor hell on my opponent from across the battlefield. Pair this with Shroud or Invisibility in cover and those Centurions earn those points.
Greatsword is a must take for me most of the time, it just basically means whatever I throw it at always dies (unless its a hive tyrant that doesn't miss any of its attacks and I make no saves like last weekend...)
Also, it looks amazing.
I love it and the incinerator on my DKs (all 3 of them)
ductvader wrote: The Greatsword's abilities are passive, so you technically use your nemesis doomfist to fight but gain the passive reroll effects.
.
how do you arrive at that conclusion when it says "you REPLACE your nemisis doomfist with a nemisis greatsword"?
I'm geniunley asking here as I just picked up the GK codex, and as far as I can see it's one or the other. which means it would work a bit like similer models with differnt weapons where you IIRC choose one effect or the other
A DK has 2xDoomfists to start with. So, replace 1 with a greatsword.
Then, you technically attack with the doomfist only, but because of the Greatsword wording, you get to reroll hit, wound because the GS wording doesn't require you to attack with it to get the benefit.
MarkCron wrote: A DK has 2xDoomfists to start with. So, replace 1 with a greatsword.
Then, you technically attack with the doomfist only, but because of the Greatsword wording, you get to reroll hit, wound because the GS wording doesn't require you to attack with it to get the benefit.
That sounds awefully rules lawyery. but I suppose it makes sense in that none of the other nemisis weapons need you to hit with the weapon to enjoy their bonus.
ductvader wrote: The Greatsword's abilities are passive, so you technically use your nemesis doomfist to fight but gain the passive reroll effects.
.
how do you arrive at that conclusion when it says "you REPLACE your nemisis doomfist with a nemisis greatsword"?
I'm geniunley asking here as I just picked up the GK codex, and as far as I can see it's one or the other. which means it would work a bit like similer models with differnt weapons where you IIRC choose one effect or the other
You have two Doomfists. You replace one, a model with a greatsword / as in a model that carries a greatsword...is granted it's abilities. Now use the other Doomfist to punchy punch.
ductvader wrote: The Greatsword's abilities are passive, so you technically use your nemesis doomfist to fight but gain the passive reroll effects.
.
how do you arrive at that conclusion when it says "you REPLACE your nemisis doomfist with a nemisis greatsword"?
I'm geniunley asking here as I just picked up the GK codex, and as far as I can see it's one or the other. which means it would work a bit like similer models with differnt weapons where you IIRC choose one effect or the other
You have two Doomfists. You replace one, a model with a greatsword / as in a model that carries a greatsword...is granted it's abilities. Now use the other Doomfist to punchy punch.
Great way to put it. Although you are replacing one fist for a NGS, you fight with the other Doom Fist. Because you happen to be holding a sword, you get the awesome re-rolls. Also, you have two CCW's creating an extra attack. You get 3 base, plus 1 attack (plus another on the charge), Swinging a S10 fist with re-rolls to hit, wound, armour penetration rolls, all at I4. Have fun!
I thought the new rule book said that you couldn't mix the abilities of one weapon for the other? So if you want the rerolls you need to hit at s6 rather then 10.
You cannont use both weapons at the same time, but the sword only needs to be carried to have the bonus, no need to use it.
So you carry the sword but use your fist (its even easy to forge a narative there.... remember russ and the Lion)
ductvader wrote: The Greatsword's abilities are passive, so you technically use your nemesis doomfist to fight but gain the passive reroll effects.
.
how do you arrive at that conclusion when it says "you REPLACE your nemisis doomfist with a nemisis greatsword"?
I'm geniunley asking here as I just picked up the GK codex, and as far as I can see it's one or the other. which means it would work a bit like similer models with differnt weapons where you IIRC choose one effect or the other
You have two Doomfists. You replace one, a model with a greatsword / as in a model that carries a greatsword...is granted it's abilities. Now use the other Doomfist to punchy punch.
Great way to put it. Although you are replacing one fist for a NGS, you fight with the other Doom Fist. Because you happen to be holding a sword, you get the awesome re-rolls. Also, you have two CCW's creating an extra attack. You get 3 base, plus 1 attack (plus another on the charge), Swinging a S10 fist with re-rolls to hit, wound, armour penetration rolls, all at I4. Have fun!
Wait, I should be using 4 attacks because my DKs have two weapons? I have only been taking 3!
hey, new grey knights player here. Was wondering how you guys would play or what you would use to go up against an imperial Knight? Here's my list to see what units I have available.
Inquisitor Coteaz- Rolling on telepathy
Draigo- Rolling on Divination
Purifiers x10- 4x Psycannons, 5x Storm Bolters, 2x Daemonhammers, 3x Force Halberds, Knight of Flame with Halberd/stormbolter
5x Paladins- 3x Daemonhammers, 1x halberd, 2x psycannon, 3x Storm Bolters, and brotherhood banner - 395
Henchmen warband- 3x acolyte, 1x psyker, razorback with dozer blade and psybolts, 1x plasma gun -88
Henchmen warband- 3x acolyte, 1x psyker, razorback with dozer blade and psybolts, 1x plasma gun -88
Stormraven- hurrican bolters, psybolts, TL multi melta, TL assault cannon
Honestly, I'd proably use a stormraven with the multimeltas as my best tool to deal with a Imperial Knight.
It's got your best anti armor weaponry and the Knight can't really shoot at it.
BrianDavion wrote: Honestly, I'd proably use a stormraven with the multimeltas as my best tool to deal with a Imperial Knight.
It's got your best anti armor weaponry and the Knight can't really shoot at it.
^This. Pretty much a trump card right there. The only problem is waiting around for that flyer to show up, meanwhile the knight is dropping large templates all over the rest of your army. Maybe you want to stay out of range of his guns during deployment; split the psyfledreads on either side of the board to cover the largest area plus one facing or the other won't have ion shield protection. Paladins and Draigo probably want to DS in on the same turn as the raven or better yet, have them riding inside. Then unload your whole army's worth of psycannons on it at the same time. Hitting a titan with hammers should be a Plan B only. After that it's only a matter of wiping out the rest of your opp's army one at a time.
BrianDavion wrote: Honestly, I'd proably use a stormraven with the multimeltas as my best tool to deal with a Imperial Knight.
It's got your best anti armor weaponry and the Knight can't really shoot at it.
^This. Pretty much a trump card right there. The only problem is waiting around for that flyer to show up, meanwhile the knight is dropping large templates all over the rest of your army. Maybe you want to stay out of range of his guns during deployment; split the psyfledreads on either side of the board to cover the largest area plus one facing or the other won't have ion shield protection. Paladins and Draigo probably want to DS in on the same turn as the raven or better yet, have them riding inside. Then unload your whole army's worth of psycannons on it at the same time. Hitting a titan with hammers should be a Plan B only. After that it's only a matter of wiping out the rest of your opp's army one at a time.
Thanks for the tips. Just referring back to my list, I had Draigo, Coteaz, and the paladins in the LR crusader. While I had combat squaded Purifiers in the Raven where one can drop during the movement phase and the other can move out during the next turn when it goes into hover. Figured I could use this to get a squad in behind while having a few infront to get around the shield.
I am going to agree with Matt that, if you don't have your stormraven on the board your dreadnoughts are proably your best back up plan. Just be aware that an IK player is gonna know this and is going to swiftly move to kill your dreadnoughts. if he's Running an Errant and knows what he's doing it's quite possiable he could kill both dreads in a single round.
IKs are hard to deal with. there's really nothing there I'd call a hard counter to them. at least not without bringing forgeworld into the mix.
BrianDavion wrote: I am going to agree with Matt that, if you don't have your stormraven on the board your dreadnoughts are proably your best back up plan. Just be aware that an IK player is gonna know this and is going to swiftly move to kill your dreadnoughts. if he's Running an Errant and knows what he's doing it's quite possiable he could kill both dreads in a single round.
IKs are hard to deal with. there's really nothing there I'd call a hard counter to them. at least not without bringing forgeworld into the mix.
oh i know this too well, i play daemons mainly and all i have are screamers against my friend and its brutal now that he knows to target them. Anyway thanks for the all the tips guys, I'll put it to good use.
...Come into the dark... 
(which, by the way, means there is even less reason to mech up compared to 6th)
My god man, you are crazy!
