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Post by: Yad
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:
I'm maintaining that the benefit provided to the MSS controller is the ability to choose which CC weapon is used by the affected model (if there is a choice) and any ability/penalty that weapon may have.
You do not have permission to choose abilities of the weapon. You benefit from abilities or penalties but are never given permission to make choices over these abilities
Partially agree. You do have permission to choose which weapon will be used by the affected model. You arbitrarily limiting the benefit you gain from any of the abilities by saying you can use those abilities if it requires a choice to be made. That I disagree with.
It is not arbitrary, it is based on actual rules, something you have an issue with.
The rules for MSS never give you any permission to make choices over abilities or penalties on weapons.
Given you partially disagree please provide a quotation from the MSS rule that gives you permission to make choices as regards abilities. You have bene unable to do that so far, despite being asked to
Already been done. I can't take the blinders off you or help you with your tunnel vision. Unless the rules specifically defines how you benefit from any ability the weapon has, you follow the ability's rules in their entirety. Anything else seems to me to be an arbitrary restriction.
[ nosferatu1001 wrote:quote=Yad 470619 4717170 null] nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yad wrote:When the MSS controller chooses to use Force,
Impossible. The MSS controller never has permission to CHOOSE to use any ability or penalty of the weapon, they are only given permission to CHOOSE what CCW to use.
Force requires that a choice be made to activate it. I'm pretty sure that's actually RAW. Score a number of unsaved wounds, choose to activate.
Again, please show permission is given to the MSS owner to make choices over abilities or penalties. As a consequence of your position Can you choose to not use penalties you dont like? Your argument (that somehow you can choose what abilities to use) requires this. Not a strawman, before you throw that tired inaccuracy out again. Or are you arbitrarily limiting your changing of rules?
Already been answered. Your point about penalties was also brought up by another much earlier in the thread. And that was answered as well. You seem to be under the impression that I'm advocating that any and all abilities of a weapon in this scenario ( MSS) can be chosen to be used or not used. That's a misrepresentation of my argument. If an ability's rule requires a choice to be made (as Force does) as part of its execution, you must do so. This insistence that the MSS controller can't follow the rules for Force is illogical.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:they are not choosing to expend a charge and take a test. They are simply invoking Force. In the Force rules, the only way to successfully invoke (activate) Force is to spend a charge and test. That's the chain I'm suggested must be followed.
And, as usual, your chain is based on a faulty premise, same as it has been throughout these pages. Same as youve been told repeatedly now, but continually ignore.
It's not possible for me to 'ignore' it as you claim as I believe you're the one getting it wrong (again).
You are ignoring the proof given, time and time again, that you are never given the choice you are making. At no point.
If you're going to talk about 'proofs' in the argumentative sense then perhaps you ought to present a formal one. As far as choice, what does it mean when the Force rules state that the psyker can choose to activate it? What pre-conditions must exist in order for this choice to become an option for the bearer of the weapon?
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:All of which is allowed because: MSS makes the MSS controller the controlling player for the affected model
WRONG. A controlling player, not THE controlling player. Again, you ignore this.
Capitalization doesn't make you more right  Another arbitrary interpretation of the rules. There is only Controlling Player. You either are or are not. MSS makes you the controlling player for the affected model. You actions though are further restricted by the MSS rules for the duration it is in effect. At which point you return control back to the owning player.
So if you are THE controlling player of, say, a crowe model - you are stating you can activate his power to remove models? After all, you are claiming you are "the" controlling player, and that no limits are given on the Control you have?
Another nonsensical statement. I'm not sure you're actually paying attention to what I've written. I've clearly stated that when acting as the Controlling Player for the affected model, your actions are limited by MSS. Since MSS can use Force and force requires a decision to be made regarding whether or not to activate, the MSS controller is allowed to make that decision. Why? Because everything is gated through MSS.
nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt arbitrary when it is a written rule. Try again with your deflections. Your actions ARE restricted, meaning you cannot be "the" controlling player - by definition you cannot be. You are A controlling player because otherwise noone controls certain elements of the model, and there is no permission given for this to occur
This means that you have A controlling player subsumed in specific elements by another controlling player. They share control - EXACTLY as written.
I don't know what you mean by 'deflections'. Your use of the term reads like red meat. It's perfectly reasonable to be considered the controlling player and only have access to take actions and make decisions for certain things (which is what MSS does). In this instance it's the ability to decide what weapon is used. Because you can also benefit from any ability the chosen weapon has, you are afforded the permission to make decisions should that ability require it.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad wrote:and MSS allows the MSS controller to benefit from any ability of the weapon. Benefit is a deliberately broad term.
-Yad
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, you benefit from Force - the rule is still present. You have no permission to choose to activate it, as you are not THE controller of the model but A controller, and only for the specific elements required
Not quite. You benefit from any ability the weapon has. I missed the part in the BRB where it says that there can be two Controlling Players for a model. Can you point that out to me?
So you blindly state something not relevant to the quote? Brilliant strategy there. I pointed out that you still benefit from it.
lol, you've actually said that you can benefit from something you can't use. How is that a benefit again?
nosferatu1001 wrote:I didnt find the part in the MSS rules where it states the Owning Player is no longer the controlling player for those actions not proscribed to the MSS rules? Can you point out where the MSS rules state the Necorn player has total control over the model? Anything?
Sure, when it says that you must return control of the 'victim' (i.e., model) back to the owning player. The only way control can be returned is if you have it.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Advanced rule overrides basic, you are aware of that concept? The necron player is A controlling player for the specific actions given in the MSS rule. The owning player remains the controlling player for everything else. Again, a marvellously simple concept you seem to be having amazing difficulty with.
Hmm, I do believe that in a previous post I mentioned that concept (Advanced vs. Basic). I'll leave it to you to go find it before I respond to this bit here.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pathetic trolling, shock.
To sumamrise: given you have still been unable to show permission to make choices on the abilities (or penalties) of CCW on behalf of the owning player, you continued deflection and trolling has meant you concession is, once again, accepted.
No further "debate" will be entered into, however I will correct any further false statements you make.
Oookaaay. *backs away slowly, making no sudden moves* Hmm, is the Godwin's Law moment of this thread? 
-Yad
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Yad wrote:
Capitalization doesn't make you more right Another arbitrary interpretation of the rules. There is only Controlling Player. You either are or are not. MSS makes you the controlling player for the affected model. You actions though are further restricted by the MSS rules for the duration it is in effect. At which point you return control back to the owning player.
-Yad
So when my terminator librarian fails his MSS test, and hits himself, who rolls the saves?
Control is split, we have 2 controlling players. You're making the hits and wounds, but I'm still taking the saves.
-Matt
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Post by: copper.talos
You have to take the best save possible. This is not optional or depend on the controlling player or affected by MSS.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Yad - since you have messed up the quotes, this is the easier way to do it - just focussing on where your fallacious argument begins and ends
"Sure, when it says that you must return control of the 'victim' (i.e., model) back to the owning player. The only way control can be returned is if you have it.
"
As has been pointed out to you repeatedly - Only if you ignore context. Again, you are defining "control" as having no qualifications attached to it, despite the contrary being true.
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULE the control returned is the limited control given to the MSS player - that of choosing which weapon to use
You are never given any other choices you can make
Your "blinkers" are that you are literally making up rules to suit your position. There is not a single instance in the MSS rules where the MSS player is given the ability to make choices on weapon abilities. Nowhere is this true, desptie your insistence - backed by absolutely no rules - otherwise
You are simply making up rules, time and time again. This seems to be a habit.
Copper - the controlling player is the one who rolls saves. So yes it does matter.
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Post by: Xzerios
Yad wrote:Unless the rules specifically defines how you benefit from any ability the weapon has, you follow the ability's rules in their entirety.
And Force does so. You must cause unsaved wounds to become eligible to expend and test, and if you succeed, your weapon gains the ID USR.
MSS gives you permission to cause wounds, to which the controlling player (the owner) has to take his best save. If he fails, MSS now gets to activate Force. Doing so still has the expend/test requirement to which the controlling player (the owner) has to make. If the player (the owner) expends/tests successfully, the weapon has ID applied and the Unsaved Wounds are resolved with ID now.
Yad, your side still needs to prove that MSS grants you permission to choose within Special rules, or that MSS makes you the owner of the model for those last steps.
Since it does neither, you may not do either.
RAW, MSS does not give you ownership of the model for page eight. RAW, MSS does not trump page eight for the choice to expend/test within Force.
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Post by: DeathReaper
copper.talos wrote:You have to take the best save possible. This is not optional or depend on the controlling player or affected by MSS.
And what happens if you have a 3+ armor save and 3+ invuln save and are hit with an AP4 weapon?
Who chooses what save to take?
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULE the control returned is the limited control given to the MSS player - that of choosing which weapon to use
You are never given any other choices you can make
You've stated this a couple of times so it's clear you don't have the Codex or haven't read the entire rule. For the sake of this thread I'll quote it from the Necron Codex:
"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs choose which, if there is a choice)."
Note that the entire quote including the part in parenthesis is from the codex. The part that says the controller of the MSS chooses which abilities and penalties to use if there is a choice flatly contradicts your assertion that you're never given any other choices but which weapon to use.
The MSS player never gains control of the enemy model in that exact sense. The GK player rolls saves. The MSS player chooses to active the weapon or not because it's an ability "before all blows in that round of combat have been struck".
So at every iniative step higher than the lowest one of that battle, the MSS controller gets to activate. RAW the MSS controller can't activate at the last init step of the combat since activation happens in response to unsaved wounds and "the victim returns to normal" after all blows have been struck.
Since all MSS will strike at I2, that means only GK swinging at I1 will not be forced to activate their weapons (if they are not able to spend all their warp charges before then anyway!) It's a bit extreme to follow RAW and have this weird change of play at the last init step. I wouldn't bother assuming RAI would be to play it the same at every init step, but of course if the GK player wanted it I'd allow MSS to be unable to activate at I1.
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Post by: Happyjew
Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.
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Post by: DeathReaper
 Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULE the control returned is the limited control given to the MSS player - that of choosing which weapon to use
You are never given any other choices you can make
You've stated this a couple of times so it's clear you don't have the Codex or haven't read the entire rule. For the sake of this thread I'll quote it from the Necron Codex:
"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs choose which, if there is a choice)."
Note that the entire quote including the part in parenthesis is from the codex. The part that says the controller of the MSS chooses which abilities and penalties to use if there is a choice flatly contradicts your assertion that you're never given any other choices but which weapon to use.
1) the Context makes it clear that "if there is a choice" is directly referring to "close combat weapons"
2) the FaQ says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)"
So nosferatu1001's assertation of "choosing which weapon to use" is correct.
Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Happyjew wrote:Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.
"benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons "
It still says it benefits from abilities and penalties of the weapon. An ability of the force weapon is the ability to activate it by spending a warp charge.
If you want to go so far as to accept that the MSS player has "control" of the enemy model, then yes RAW means you would roll saves. I don't believe rolling saves for the enemy model is RAI however because MSS primarily concerned with the enemy models attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  DeathReaper wrote:
1) the Context makes it clear that "if there is a choice" is directly referring to "close combat weapons"
This I agree with.
DeathReaper wrote:
2) the FaQ says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)"
So nosferatu1001's assertation of "choosing which weapon to use" is correct.
This is still wrong. Activation is an ability of force weapons. MSS allows you to benefit from from this ability by allowing you to activate it. If you can't activate the force weapon then you're not benefiting from the weapons abilities.
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Post by: DeathReaper
How do you activate a force weapon?
A Psyker expends a Warp Charge point.
Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.
Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.
The Force USR's ability is to give the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate, That is the question.
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Post by: kirsanth
DeathReaper wrote:Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.
Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.
Your correlation = causation bit is flawed. The ability is one of/from the weapon, used as a psychic power - there is no use of Force without the Force weapon (which is why its listed as a rule for the weapon, not the psyker).
Grey Knight models are not psykers (per se) with force weapons, but their force weapons can be activated and used by units of them.
I have gone from "Of course not!" to "Oh, ok." to "Umm. . .maybe?" and around again a few times now - so feel free to ignore this.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
 kirsanth wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.
Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.
Your correlation = causation bit is flawed. The ability is one of/from the weapon, used as a psychic power - there is no use of Force without the Force weapon (which is why its listed as a rule for the weapon, not the psyker).
Grey Knight models are not psykers (per se) with force weapons, but their force weapons can be activated and used by units of them.
I have gone from "Of course not!" to "Oh, ok." to "Umm. . .maybe?" and around again a few times now - so feel free to ignore this.
Precisely what I would say.
Activation most definitely is an ability of the weapon. Spending a warp charge is a penalty for using it. Penalties are also covered by the MSS rule.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Nemesor Dave wrote:Happyjew wrote:Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.
"benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons "
It still says it benefits from abilities and penalties of the weapon. An ability of the force weapon is the ability to activate it by spending a warp charge.
If you want to go so far as to accept that the MSS player has "control" of the enemy model, then yes RAW means you would roll saves. I don't believe rolling saves for the enemy model is RAI however because MSS primarily concerned with the enemy models attacks.
So, no apology for you getting it wrong, again?
Find permission in the MSS rule to MAKE THE CHOICE to expend a warp token and to take a psychic test. Actual specific permission.
Oddly enough youve jumped in with nothing new, and still lacking any permission to do what youre claiming. The logic al leaping by the proForce side is something amazing to behold
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote: Nemesor Dave wrote:Happyjew wrote:Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.
"benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons "
It still says it benefits from abilities and penalties of the weapon. An ability of the force weapon is the ability to activate it by spending a warp charge.
If you want to go so far as to accept that the MSS player has "control" of the enemy model, then yes RAW means you would roll saves. I don't believe rolling saves for the enemy model is RAI however because MSS primarily concerned with the enemy models attacks.
So, no apology for you getting it wrong, again?
Find permission in the MSS rule to MAKE THE CHOICE to expend a warp token and to take a psychic test. Actual specific permission.
Oddly enough youve jumped in with nothing new, and still lacking any permission to do what youre claiming. The logic al leaping by the proForce side is something amazing to behold
No apology needed because the rule still works as I said.
You may benefit from the abilities of the light switch in the room. Does this mean you may not turn it on to light the room, and you are not allowed to pay the electricity bill?
The ability of force weapons is that you may choose to activate them. The penalty is paying a warp charge if you do activate them.
MSS gives permission when it says you benefit from the ability. The force weapons ability is that you may make a choice to activate it or not.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.
Again
Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.
So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.
Again
Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.
So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck
No such requirement exists.
The ability is not simply to activate the weapon, the ability allows you to choose. Choosing is inherently part of the ability. Benefiting from this ability bestows on you the choice. I'll give you a simple example:
ABILITY: You may choose to activate or not.
The ability does not require you to activate. If I benefit from this ability I simply get to choose. Perhaps it is beneficial for me to choose not to activate. In that case benefiting from this ability would mean choosing not to activate.
No control of the model needed. Better luck adding imaginary requirements to rules next time.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
I suggest you read page 8, and what controlling player means
You are taking a logical leap as to what "benefit" means, and repeating the same erroneous argument that has carried on for 20 pages now.
You lack permission, full stop, to do what you want to do.
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Post by: Happyjew
Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.
Again
Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.
So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck
No such requirement exists.
The ability is not simply to activate the weapon, the ability allows you to choose. Choosing is inherently part of the ability. Benefiting from this ability bestows on you the choice. I'll give you a simple example:
ABILITY: You may choose to activate or not.
The ability does not require you to activate. If I benefit from this ability I simply get to choose. Perhaps it is beneficial for me to choose not to activate. In that case benefiting from this ability would mean choosing not to activate.
No control of the model needed. Better luck adding imaginary requirements to rules next time.
Actually, the Psyker gets to make the choice. However, it is assumed that the Controlling player gets to make any choices on behalf of the model, otherwise the game would consistently come to a stand-still, as we wait for inanimate objects make a decision or perform an action.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:I suggest you read page 8, and what controlling player means
You are taking a logical leap as to what "benefit" means, and repeating the same erroneous argument that has carried on for 20 pages now.
You lack permission, full stop, to do what you want to do.
Currently if you do not activate the force weapon, did you benefit from that ability of the force weapon? No.
The rule not only gives permission, but requires the MSS hits to benefit from the ability.
These hits benefit from any abilities and penalties of his close combat weapons.
If the force weapon wasn't activated, did the hit benefit from the ability? No, you just broke the rule.
If the psyker didn't expend a remaining warp charge did the hit benefit from the ability? No, again you violated the MSS rule that says the hits benefit from the ability.
The only logical leap is you placing additional requirements that don't exist.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Nemesor Dave wrote: kirsanth wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.
Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.
Your correlation = causation bit is flawed. The ability is one of/from the weapon, used as a psychic power - there is no use of Force without the Force weapon (which is why its listed as a rule for the weapon, not the psyker).
Grey Knight models are not psykers (per se) with force weapons, but their force weapons can be activated and used by units of them.
I have gone from "Of course not!" to "Oh, ok." to "Umm. . .maybe?" and around again a few times now - so feel free to ignore this.
Precisely what I would say.
Activation most definitely is an ability of the weapon. Spending a warp charge is a penalty for using it. Penalties are also covered by the MSS rule.
And how does one activate The Force USR?
A: By Spending a Warp Charge point.
Weapons do not have a Warp Charge point, so the activation of the weapon is not an ability of the weapon.
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Post by: Neorealist
By that logic weapons do not (typically) themselves have an 'Attacks' statistic, so we cannot attack with them?
it's a bit of a stretch to say that the weapon itself has to have the warp charge point in order to offer a choice that one of them be spent.
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Post by: DeathReaper
 Neorealist wrote:By that logic weapons do not (typically) themselves have an 'Attacks' statistic, so we cannot attack with them?
No, that is actually a perfect illustration of my point.
An attacks characteristic is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the wielder.
Neorealist wrote:it's a bit of a stretch to say that the weapon itself has to have the warp charge point in order to offer a choice that one of them be spent.
Not in this case, as the psyker expending a Warp Charge point is how you activate of the Force USR.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
DeathReaper wrote: Neorealist wrote:By that logic weapons do not (typically) themselves have an 'Attacks' statistic, so we cannot attack with them?
No, that is actually a perfect illustration of my point.
An attacks characteristic is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the wielder.
Neorealist wrote:it's a bit of a stretch to say that the weapon itself has to have the warp charge point in order to offer a choice that one of them be spent.
Not in this case, as the psyker expending a Warp Charge point is how you activate of the Force USR.
So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.
Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Again - where is your specific allowance to force the psyker to spend a point and take the test, when as per page 8 that choice is up to the Controlling Player for those actions?
Hint: MSS player is never that controlling player
Also, you can only spend a warp charge if you are a psyker, as per the Force USR, meanning it is a property of the psyker and not of the weapon
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
nosferatu1001 wrote:Again - where is your specific allowance to force the psyker to spend a point and take the test, when as per page 8 that choice is up to the Controlling Player for those actions?
Hint: MSS player is never that controlling player
Also, you can only spend a warp charge if you are a psyker, as per the Force USR, meanning it is a property of the psyker and not of the weapon
Here you go again with requirements that are not there.
MSS says you benefit from abilities and penalties of the weapon. The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon. Activating is is a benefit of force weapons. Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.
MSS gives you a blanket allowance to use the abilities of the weapon against it's target.
If you don't allow the force weapon to activate when it could, you're not allowing the MSS player to benefit from the rule. The rule even says "control" is returned. How logically can you give someone back control if you never took it in the first place? Your interpretation of this rule makes no sense!
Hint: there is no requirement for MSS to specifically allow every combination of weapon abilities and whether or not you can benefit from each one no matter how they work. It says "You Benefit". The requirement is on you to show where MSS is specifically disallowed from using an ability of the weapon.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Nemesor Dave wrote:So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge. Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?
The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon. Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability). Ergo Force only gives the psyker a choice. Nemesor Dave wrote:The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon.
We are in agreement. and you benefit from that choice, but the choice is still with the psykers controller as per P.8 Nemesor Dave wrote:Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.
That is not correct. The weapon is activated by a psyker expending a Warp Charge point. Spending the charge is not a penalty spending a charge is how you activate.
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Post by: Kevlar
DeathReaper wrote: Nemesor Dave wrote:So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.
Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?
The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.
Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).
Ergo Force only gives the psyker a choice.
Nemesor Dave wrote:The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon.
We are in agreement.
and you benefit from that choice, but the choice is still with the psykers controller as per P.8
Nemesor Dave wrote:Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.
That is not correct. The weapon is activated by a psyker expending a Warp Charge point.
Spending the charge is not a penalty spending a charge is how you activate.
Exactly the way I see it.
Nothing in the MSS rule allows the necron to make the choice to activate a force weapon. The only thing the MSS forces is the use of the force weapon and the force rule does nothing without the psyker choosing activation.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Nemesor Dave wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Again - where is your specific allowance to force the psyker to spend a point and take the test, when as per page 8 that choice is up to the Controlling Player for those actions?
Hint: MSS player is never that controlling player
Also, you can only spend a warp charge if you are a psyker, as per the Force USR, meanning it is a property of the psyker and not of the weapon
Here you go again with requirements that are not there.
Nope, here I go again requiring you to have permissionb to do something you wish to do, same as the rest of the rules. Shocking i know.
Nemesor Dave wrote:MSS says you benefit from abilities and penalties of the weapon. The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon. Activating is is a benefit of force weapons. Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.
the choice to activate is the psykers, as the rules for Force tell you. You have read the rules for force, yes?
Nemesor Dave wrote:Hint: there is no requirement for MSS to specifically allow every combination of weapon abilities and whether or not you can benefit from each one no matter how they work. It says "You Benefit". The requirement is on you to show where MSS is specifically disallowed from using an ability of the weapon.
Wrong, again. Hint: in a permissive ruleset you have to have permission to do anything. In this case you need permission to make the choice to spend the point and test instead of the psyker. You dont have that permisison
Try again
16368
Post by: snakel
nosferatu1001 wrote:No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.
Again
Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.
So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck
Seems to me the disrespect is coming from telling people they are spouting gak instead of constructively arguing your point.
You would do better to stop belittling people and just arguing the point instead of coming across as rather rude a self opinionated
To the point at hand both sides have valid points, at the moment what you do re the issue is best left to roll offs of prior game agreements, until there is if ever an FAQ on this point
2633
Post by: Yad
DeathReaper wrote: Nemesor Dave wrote:So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.
Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?
The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.
I think your statement should really read, per the Force USR rule, "The Force USR, an ability of the weapon, requires the psyker to spend a Warp Charge and take a psychic test if they choose to activate their weapon."
DeathReaper wrote:Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).
The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).
The MSS rules says that the MSS controller can benefit from any ability the weapon has. Force is clearly an ability. Can you explain how the MSS controller can benefit from it?
-Yad
46128
Post by: Happyjew
The same way a non-psyker benefits from the Force special rule.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Yad wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Nemesor Dave wrote:So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.
Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?
The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.
I think your statement should really read, per the Force USR rule, "The Force USR, an ability of the weapon, requires the psyker to spend a Warp Charge and take a psychic test if they choose to activate their weapon."
Not exactly. it does not "require the psyker to spend a Warp Charge and take a psychic test if they choose to activate their weapon"
The spent warp charge is how the psyker chooses to activate the weapon. "he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..."
That is literally how the activation occurs, by the psyker "expending a Warp Charge point"
Nothing in the MSS rules makes the Psyker expend a Warp Charge point.
DeathReaper wrote:Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).
The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).
-Yad
Force is an ability of the weapon, one that allows a psyker to activate the force weapon by expending a Warp Charge point.
Expending a Warp Charge point is not an ability of the weapon, so MSS can never activate a force weapon.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Yad wrote: The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).
Thats not how the rule reads though. Its worded that upon the first Unsaved Wound, the Psyker can immediately choose to spend a Warp Charge point and take a psychic test.
'Choose' and 'Force' both carry different meanings within the English language.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Xzerios wrote:Thats not how the rule reads though. Its worded that upon the first Unsaved Wound, the Psyker can immediately choose to spend a Warp Charge point and take a psychic test.
'Choose' and 'Force' both carry different meanings within the English language.
The underlined only applies to Nemesis Force Weapons (unless the GK FAQ changed it, not sure). With regular Force weapons, it's "If the psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds..."
57400
Post by: Xzerios
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."
The colored section is also what MSS does not give the Necron player power over. That choice, lies outside what they can choose and page eight mandates that even if this choice is envoked, the owner of the model gets to choose.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Snakel - when someones first post in ages claims you havent bothered to read the rules, despite quoting them, then they manage to get the wrong rule, that is disrespectful to all posters in this thread who have bothered to pay attention.
The anti side havent got a "good point", they have a lot of handwaving about not needing explicit permission because, well, for no actual rules based reason that has been shown.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Well that, and believing that getting to use any ability of a weapon give you the right to choose to activate a force weapon, which in turn 'forces' the psyker to pay the warp charge and take a leadership check as per the Force USR. You know, that sort of thing. I'm a bit hurt that you don't think the Pro-MSS side has brought forth any rules-specific information in our arguments.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Because the rules for Force dont actually say that.
The psyker chooses to activate, it is not a property of the weapon so is not something the MSS player can choose to do. The psyker activates by choosing to spend a warp charge. Which is not a property of the weapon, so is not something the MSS player can choose to do
Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.
That is whats meant by not providing any rules.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
You do get to use any ability of the weapon.
Expending a Warp Charge point to activate the weapon, sadly, is not an ability of the weapon, it is an ability granted to the psyker by the weapon, and not an ability of the weapon itself.
You have no permission to use the psykers ability to expend warp charge points.
Force is an ability of the weapon, one that allows a psyker to activate the force weapon by expending a Warp Charge point.
Expending a Warp Charge point is not an ability of the weapon, so MSS can never activate a Force weapon.
You have not cited any rules that say you are allowed to use the abilities of the psyker, so unless you can find some, you can not use the psykers ability to expend a warp charge point.
37399
Post by: Stoff3
nosferatu1001 wrote:Because the rules for Force dont actually say that.
The psyker chooses to activate, it is not a property of the weapon so is not something the MSS player can choose to do. The psyker activates by choosing to spend a warp charge. Which is not a property of the weapon, so is not something the MSS player can choose to do
Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.
That is whats meant by not providing any rules.
I agree. The pro-side is making their case made of assumptions. They assume that the "benefit" will force the psyker to activate. To override something stated in the BRB it must be specifically pointed out in the rules.
As I have said before, if something would be able to let you shoot at any target, a ranged weapon for an example it must follow the rules for LoS, range and so on if not specifically stated in the rules that they override a rule in the BRB
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Neorealist wrote:Well that, and believing that getting to use any ability of a weapon give you the right to choose to activate a force weapon, which in turn 'forces' the psyker to pay the warp charge and take a leadership check as per the Force USR. You know, that sort of thing. I'm a bit hurt that you don't think the Pro-MSS side has brought forth any rules-specific information in our arguments.
Xzerios wrote:Yad wrote: The weapon does not let a psyker spend the charge. The Force USR requires them to (if the psyker chooses to activate it).
Thats not how the rule reads though. Its worded that upon the first Unsaved Wound, the Psyker can immediately choose to spend a Warp Charge point and take a psychic test.
' Choose' and ' Force' both carry different meanings within the English language.
Second edit: I noticed this on the post. The way this rule reads out in that terminology is it requires a choice to be made.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
nosferatu wrote:Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.
My particular theory regarding this is that the psyker's controlling player 'has' to choose to activate the force weapon in order for the MSSs' controlling player to be considered to have access to any of the benefits and penalties of the weapon. (specifically, the 'instant death' benefit).
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Except you do not have permission to override the Controlling Players abiltiy to make the choice, not you.
If a non psyker wields a Force weapon you still benefit from Force, as the rule is still present on the Weapon. The fact you cannot cause Instant Death does not alter this.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
RAW, this is a fundamental breakdown of how this process works
MSS kick in, Necron player gains control of the outlined objects that the model has.
An Unsaved Wound occurs, caused by this model controlled by MSS.
MSS chooses to use Force.
Force now calls for a second choice for the Psyker to either expend/test, or not. He cannot not spend and then test as the rules in Force prevent him from doing so.
Since this choice was invoked by Force, page eights Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player states that the owner of the model is the one who makes the choice. Since MSS doesnt state that it either makes it the owner of the model for these choices specifically, or give it the option to make choices within Special rules (both of which would trump this rule by page seven) the rule from page eight stands.
Controlling player now choices. Either yes and follows the rest of the rules to activate the weapon; or no, and the rules for Force end.
Allocate Unsaved Wounds per page 25 and continue with the Fight Sub-phase to its conclusion.
37399
Post by: Stoff3
Neorealist wrote:nosferatu wrote:Be hurt if you want, but you have yet to provide the permission required to override the Controlling Player rules which state it is the Psyker that gets to choose.
My particular theory regarding this is that the psyker's controlling player 'has' to choose to activate the force weapon in order for the MSSs' controlling player to be considered to have access to any of the benefits and penalties of the weapon. (specifically, the 'instant death' benefit).
You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Stoff3 wrote:You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.
I'm going by a plain-english definition of the word ' any' here, i don't believe there is a specific rule attached to the word.
37399
Post by: Stoff3
Neorealist wrote:Stoff3 wrote:You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.
I'm going by a plain-english definition of the word ' any' here, i don't believe there is a specific rule attached to the word.
So if you for an example can shoot at any target, then all rules for LoS, range, movement vs heavy weapon don't apply anymore? I would believe that, just as they have done for the shooting attacks that ignore some of the basic rules in the brb, would be clear what kinds of overrides to the basic rule that the rule in question does.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Neorealist wrote:Stoff3 wrote:You assume that it is working that way, but text in the rule that specifically says what you are saying is nowhere to be found. Feel free to speculate if you believe that this is the way GW is gonna change it, but do not claim cheesy rule interpretations from something that is based on assumptions.
I'm going by a plain-english definition of the word ' any' here, i don't believe there is a specific rule attached to the word.
So an allowance to shoot at "any" target ignores los, range, whether the weapon is one shot and has already been used, etc?
Or does it only lift the restrictions explicitly mentioned?
58920
Post by: Neorealist
I wasn't talking about shooting, and would thank the both of you to remember that we are discussing MSSs' effects; not rules abiguities with regard to shooting something and/or it's interaction with the word 'any'
Regarding the weapon properties itself, yes i believe 'any' refers to all of them, not just a specific sub-set of them as you've been indicating.
37399
Post by: Stoff3
Neorealist wrote:I wasn't talking about shooting, and would thank the both of you to remember that we are discussing MSSs' effects; not rules abiguities with regard to shooting something and/or it's interaction with the word 'any'
Regarding the weapon properties itself, yes i believe 'any' refers to all of them, not just a specific sub-set of them as you've been indicating.
Examples that clearify the rules don't have to be about MSS. And if "any" isn't having the same meaning in other examples how can you stay with your interpretation? You are linking the wording "any" to your interpretation, but for it to be correct we have to be able to use it in other situations too with the same interpretation.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
The MSS ARE benefiting from all abilities.
the MSS gives the psyker the choice to activate, just like when the psyker hits and wounds.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
DeathReaper wrote:The MSS ARE benefiting from all abilities.
the MSS gives the psyker the choice to activate, just like when the psyker hits and wounds.
isn't being able to instant-death something 'also' an ability of force weapons?
55956
Post by: Lt.Soundwave
isn't being able to instant-death something 'also' an ability of force weapons?
Only if you are a psyker choosing to expend the warp charge to activate it as the ability requires. Otherwise no.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Schrödinger's Force USR: Collapses the wave-function on wether or not it contains the 'instant death' benefit only if the choice is made to activate it.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Yes, same as any other conditional ability. If you dont meet the conditions you dont get all the benefits.
Our example of the use of the word "any" as applied to other situaitons shows your position is unsound - you cannot apply your reasoning uniformly, indicating an error in your logic.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Neorealist wrote:Schrödinger's Force USR: Collapses the wave-function on wether or not it contains the 'instant death' benefit only if the choice is made to activate it.
if they wanted Force to instant ID, they would have just bypassed making this rule and just given the damn weapons the ID USR. :|
58920
Post by: Neorealist
umm... okay...
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, same as any other conditional ability. If you dont meet the conditions you dont get all the benefits.
Our example of the use of the word "any" as applied to other situaitons shows your position is unsound - you cannot apply your reasoning uniformly, indicating an error in your logic.
Just because some randomly half-quoted rule says a model can fire at any target, and this cannot be inferred to mean that you'd therefore ignore every shooting rule in the game means my use the words 'any benefits' as equivelent to 'all benefits' is somehow invalid? Can explain the logic behind that? as it seems like a rather counter-intuitive stretch to me.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
I met your off tangent with one of my own. Now get back on topic, MSS doesnt affect the shooting phase.
37399
Post by: Stoff3
Neorealist wrote:umm... okay...
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, same as any other conditional ability. If you dont meet the conditions you dont get all the benefits.
Our example of the use of the word "any" as applied to other situaitons shows your position is unsound - you cannot apply your reasoning uniformly, indicating an error in your logic.
Just because some randomly half-quoted rule says a model can fire at any target, and this cannot be inferred to mean that you'd therefore ignore every shooting rule in the game means my use the words 'any benefits' as equivelent to 'all benefits' is somehow invalid? Can explain the logic behind that? as it seems like a rather counter-intuitive stretch to me.
We are making the example because you obviously don't get that you are not able to overrule the BRB rules unless specifically stated. Now as people have been trying to tell you numerous times here the rules for MSS are quite clear in this department. They are not specifically stating that you can make choices or that you are in full control of the model, and because of that you do not meet the requirements to activate force, since it is not your choice according to the BRB. You can't, as I have told you many times already, assume that is does override the BRB rules, unless you have clear proof in the rule. Just as you can't override the BRB rules for shooting, even if able to shoot at any target, unless otherwise stated!
Your picture of the wording "any" isn't applyable to other examples and therefore it is not logical.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Ok, lets address your 'argument' for a moment:
A = ignore any/all shooting rules
B = 'any'
C = 'all'
I'm saying B = C.
You are saying that A = B, and asking me to prove that A = C as well otherwise you claim my argument is invalid. No thanks, i'm not having any of that. If you feel my use of the word 'any' is wrong, that is fine; but please argue from a perspective that includes MSS rather than some rule i've never heard of and that is not relevant to MSS in any case.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Theres only two ways for MSS to activate Force completely.
Become the owner of the model (MSS gets close, but doesnt actually state that you become the owner of the model for the defined period that MSS works).
Allow MSS to make choices with Special rules (again, it gets close, but only choice that it gives the Necron player is weapons if there are multiple choices).
To help the MSS folks out, with the argument that they must overcome currently; Ill present this to you in the forms of questions:
Where does it state in the rule for MSS that you become the owner of the model in order to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player?
Where does it state in rule for MSS that it -specifically- gives you full authority to govern choices beyond weapon selection in order to trump the Force USR?
If the Pro-side can answer either of these questions with the MSS rule using proper English, we can continue the debate. As it stands currently, the MSS rule is not able to dictate the choice to expend/test and thats the current argument that needs to be met, or the debate is over and MSS does not allow for a weapon with Force to get to the ID USR without the Psyker choosing to expend and test as Force calls out for.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Xzerios wrote:
To help the MSS folks out, with the argument that they must overcome currently; Ill present this to you in the forms of questions:
Where does it state in the rule for MSS that you become the owner of the model in order to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player?
Where does it state in rule for MSS that it -specifically- gives you full authority to govern choices beyond weapon selection in order to trump the Force USR?
If the Pro-side can answer either of these questions with the MSS rule using proper English, we can continue the debate. As it stands currently, the MSS rule is not able to dictate the choice to expend/test and thats the current argument that needs to be met, or the debate is over and MSS does not allow for a weapon with Force to get to the ID USR without the Psyker choosing to expend and test as Force calls out for.
Alrighty.
Question 1: The Controller of the MSS must become the Controlling Player (at least in some fashion) in order for that control to be returned as per: "...the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows..." to make any sense. That control only extends to the options listed in the MSS writeup granted, but it is nevertheless present and accounted for.
Question 2: It doesn't. You do not need 'full authority' (whatever that is in this context) in order for it to be necessary that some choices be made in a certain fashion; so that you can be said to have access to 'any' of the benefits of the force weapon.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
'In some fashion' is not enough to trump that rule. You need to be given full permission to the model and that is something that MSS does not do. Without full permission, you dont trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player with the Codex.
Without MSS stating permission to make choices within Special rules specifically, you are unable to trump the Force USR with the Codex.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
So in a very-specific way, the controller of the MSS becomes the Controlling Player of the MSS-ed model until control is returned to the Owning player at the end of the assault round. (as per the definition of 'Controlling Player' as found on page 8 and overrulled by the MSS rules-text)
For the purposes of choosing the weapon, the Necron player is explicitly and undeniably the Controlling Player. Furthermore, that weapon 'must' be said to benefit from any of the abilities and penalties it possesses and no distinction is made between active (ie: requiring a choice) and passive (ie: automatic) abilities.
With me so far?
Now, with the above in mind; please show me a rule that says a model can have more than one 'Controlling Player' at any given time for any reason.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Neorealist wrote:For the purposes of choosing the weapon, the Necron player is explicitly and undeniably the Controlling Player. Furthermore, that weapon 'must' be said to benefit from any of the abilities and penalties it possesses...
It possesses, The weapon is what it is referring to. Q: How do you activate a force weapon? Is expending a Warp Charge point an ability of the weapon?
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Please, tell us what is controlled that must be returned?
Those items do not make you the model owner. Again, you think that due in part to the end of the rule of MSS that you were given full control of the model when you have not been given full control of the model. This is the point that the Pro-MSS have been unable to overcome.
The MSS gives you permission to choose weapons, you gain the properties of said weapons you choose as well. In this case, Force is on the weapon. You are still bound by what the rule states you must do. A choice comes up for the Pyker model (controlled in specific ways with MSS) to either expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test. If they have no point are choose not to expend, they may not take the test. Since MSS does not give you control of the choices within rules (only access to them) and this specific rule calls for something that you are not given permission by MSS to do, you may not make that decision.
Again, two ways for MSS to beat the Force USR, but it is unable to do so with its current wording of the rule. I suspect that it will be fixed (possibly) on the next FaQ round as it does seem like slight oversight on GWs part. Then again, Force is written differently than most USRs that apply to weapons so you never know.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:
the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.
The Force USR requires the psyker to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.
Xzerios wrote:you were given full control of the model
: Please do not tell me what it is I am saying. i was very clear in limiting what specific control i am claiming MSS grants, and i except you to respond to my posts with that in mind, rather simply ignoring my responses in favour of your own views on what you 'think' i am saying.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Neorealist wrote:I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:
the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.
The Force USR requires the psyker to choose to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.
You keep forgetting the colored portion. That is what the rule tells you to do sir.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Neorealist wrote:So in a very-specific way, the controller of the MSS becomes the Controlling Player of the MSS-ed model until control is returned to the Owning player at the end of the assault round. (as per the definition of 'Controlling Player' as found on page 8 and overrulled by the MSS rules-text)
For the purposes of choosing the weapon, the Necron player is explicitly and undeniably the Controlling Player. Furthermore, that weapon 'must' be said to benefit from any of the abilities and penalties it possesses and no distinction is made between active (ie: requiring a choice) and passive (ie: automatic) abilities.
With me so far?
Now, with the above in mind; please show me a rule that says a model can have more than one 'Controlling Player' at any given time for any reason.
Ah, so now youre back to claiming, like YAd did for a whiule, that you can only have one controlling player at any one time?
Doesnt matter if you cannot have more than one, for this purpose - you are NOT the controlling player for every purpose, therefore you STILL Cannot choose to expend a token. If your contention there is only one controlling player at any one time, then noone is able to choose to expend a warp token, as that isnt your choice to make according to MSS
Again: your supposition that to benefit from abilities isto be able to make choices on behalf of the player. Except the ability to choice is explicitly given, and explicitly restricted to only CCW. Your suypposition is a huge logical leap that ignores the rules presented in the given text
Again: find permission to CHOOSE anything other than the CCW you can use, and you will have the proof you need. Until then the Controlling Player restriction remains, and you cannot choose to expend a warp token
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Neorealist wrote:I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again: the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.
Correct. Neorealist wrote:The Force USR requires the psyker to choose to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.
Xerios has it correct. Xzerios wrote:You keep forgetting the colored portion. That is what the rule tells you to do sir.
Do you have rules quotes that say what you claim? We claim that P.37 says "[the psyker] can immediately choose to activate [the force weapon] by expending a Warp Charge point..." It says "he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..." but as I have noted above he and it refer to psyker and force weapon
57400
Post by: Xzerios
As Force reads within the English language:
A weapon thats wielded by a Psyker model that inflicts one or more Unsaved Wounds with this weapon can choose to expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test. If the test is passed, the Unsaved Wounds caused by the weapon with Force now have the Instant Death USR applied to them.
Most other USRs that are weapon-type USRs dont have a similar wording. They typically read out to something more like this
A weapon with Fleshbane always wounds on a 2+. This rule has no effect on Vehicle units.
Or
A weapon with Poisoned always wounds on a X+, check your Codex' Wargear section to find out the value for X. If the weapon or model that has this weapon's Strength is equal to or higher than the defending model, you must re-roll failed To Wound rolls.
Force is a weapon-type USR that does not function in the same fashion as most other weapon-type USRs. Skyfire is also very similar in this regard as it too calls for a choice to be made within the rule itself. Its this written in choice that MSS doesnt get to control as MSS just assumes the Special rules for those CCWs are innately on like Fleshbane, Armorbane, or even Poisoned.
2633
Post by: Yad
Xzerios wrote: Neorealist wrote:I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:
the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.
The Force USR requires the psyker to choose to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.
You keep forgetting the colored portion. That is what the rule tells you to do sir.
You're both a bit off here actually. The rules don't require you to choose to spend a charge. The actual rule has been quoted previously, and it certainly doesn't say what you mean it to say in your quote. The Force USR allows the psyker to choose to activate it (Force) by spending a charge and taking a test. During the normal course of play, should the psyker score a number of unsaved wounds, the psyker can choose to activate Force. If they so choose, they must then spend a charge and take a psychic test. If you were to map this out in a flow chart, the first box would be [Psker with Force Weapon scores unsaved wound(s)]. Next would be a decision box [Activate Force]. A Yes path would go to an action box [spend charge, take psychic test]. A no path would likely lead to the next step(s) in the fight sub-phase (depending on initiative.
This talk of the psyker getting a choice in whether or not he can spend a charge is just not possible.
-Yad Automatically Appended Next Post: In other words, the Force USR does not allow you to decouple the spending of a charge and taking of a psychic test from the decision to activate Force.
You must be able to demonstrate that you can avoid spending the charge point and taking a test when the decision has been made to activate Force. Where in the Force rule does it allow you to do so?
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Point of order: Xzerios added the blue text to my quote, my original comment was the non-blue part.
I've been of the opinion that if the force USR is activated then warp charge expenditure and psychic test are mandatory; and that the only choice (normally) is wether or not to activate it to begin with.
55956
Post by: Lt.Soundwave
You're both a bit off here actually. The rules don't require you to choose to spend a charge. The actual rule has been quoted previously, and it certainly doesn't say what you mean it to say in your quote. The Force USR allows the psyker to choose to activate it (Force) by spending a charge and taking a test. -yad
...
31280
Post by: Kapitalist-Pig
Neorealist wrote:Point of order: Xzerios added the blue text to my quote, my original comment was the non-blue part.
I've been of the opinion that if the force USR is activated then warp charge expenditure and psychic test are mandatory; and that the only choice (normally) is wether or not to activate it to begin with.
So what you are saying is that the Psyker must choose to activate the force rule, which due to the constraints of MSS you have no ability to make that decision. Or in other words you benefit from the weapon having the force rule, but you cannot activate it, because force MUST be activated by the Psyker. Which as noted before you have limited control, to the tune of which CCW to choose if there is multiple. Futhermore, you must be able to cite where, as the MSS player where a choice can be made beyond which weapon to use.
If I remember correctly, MSS states you get all benefits and draw backs of the weapons (para-phrasing). So the benefit of a force weapon is the special rule, which you try to activate, but the drawback is you must spend a warp charge point to due so. Not that the opposing player must spend a warp charge point to benefit you seeings how you have no control of what the model must due beyond choosing which weapon to use and where the attacks go.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Yad wrote:In other words, the Force USR does not allow you to decouple the spending of a charge and taking of a psychic test from the decision to activate Force.
You must be able to demonstrate that you can avoid spending the charge point and taking a test when the decision has been made to activate Force. Where in the Force rule does it allow you to do so?
You are correct, you may not test without expending first. Thats what Force tells us to do. You are still missing the point the against side has brought to your door.
Where does it state in the rule for MSS that you become the owner of the model in order to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player?
Where does it state in rule for MSS that it -specifically- gives you full authority to govern choices beyond weapon selection in order to trump the Force USR?
You still need to account for these Yad.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
I am getting kind of tired of the phrase (and similar varients of) "So what you are saying is..." as it's inevitably been followed with a post only tangically related to my own about something that 'isn't' what i've been saying at all.
this is what i am saying regarding how the force USR specifically works: Neorealist, member of the redundant department of redundancy wrote: Precondition: Unsaved Wound (Yes/No)?
(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?
(Yes2)
Mandatory Action: Spend a Warp Charge if available. (if unavailable, go to No)
Mandatory Action: Take Psychic Test (if failed, go to No, if Perils, follow rules for such)
(if passed 'and' warp charge spent, go to Yes3)
(No)
Result: Do Nothing.
(Yes3)
Result: Activate Instant Death
this is what i am saying regarding MSS in general:
Neorealist, master of very little of what he surveys wrote:
My particular theory regarding this is that the psyker's controlling player 'has' to choose to activate the force weapon in order for the MSSs' controlling player to be considered to have access to any of the benefits and penalties of the weapon. (specifically, the 'instant death' benefit).
I may not be right. I may not be wrong. But by the Maker, if you are saying that I am saying something? Quote me DIRECTLY.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Neorealist wrote:(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?
Please see the Cyan and Red questions. This is the portion you do not have control over. MSS does not allow you to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player -or- Force USR Automatically Appended Next Post: Your side is still unable to prove the demerit of the choice thats worded within the rule itself. Look! You guys are unable to phrase the statement without this choice yourselves! Why might that be? Because your brain still interprets this choice, you are still overlooking the fact that MSS does NOT allow you permission to govern this choice and it even has two ways to beat it. Yet it is unable to do so as written.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
*sigh* I'm well aware there is a choice there. I'm just of the opinion that the Owning Player has to choose to activate the weapon in order for the (temporary) Controlling Player to be considered to be benefiting from 'all' of the weapons abilities and penalties.
57400
Post by: Xzerios
How do they choose to activate the weapon? Note, choices by definition have multiple answers. :3
Automatically Appended Next Post:
All MSS can do currently is force the choice, if the owner says no, the Necron player is just SoL at that point.
58920
Post by: Neorealist
Well i presume some incantation featuring 'Sight-Beyond-Sight' or the 'Power of Greyskull' is invoked...
Seriously, are you asking me how a player can choose to activate the force property of a weapon...?
57400
Post by: Xzerios
Here, Ill answer for you.
By choosing to either expend and test as the rule calls for, or not and thats the end of the rule.
2633
Post by: Yad
Xzerios wrote:Neorealist wrote:(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?
Please see the Cyan and Red questions. This is the portion you do not have control over. MSS does not allow you to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player -or- Force USR
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your side is still unable to prove the demerit of the choice thats worded within the rule itself. Look! You guys are unable to phrase the statement without this choice yourselves! Why might that be? Because your brain still interprets this choice, you are still overlooking the fact that MSS does NOT allow you permission to govern this choice and it even has two ways to beat it. Yet it is unable to do so as written.
Can you explain then how the MSS controller benefits from Force ability of the weapon. As the MSS rule says, you benefit from any ability... Following your interpretation, there is no way to benefit from the Force USR. There is no stated exception to the 'benefit' provided by the rule. You get to choose the weapon and you (the MSS controller) get to benefit from any ability the weapon has. As benefit itself is not a formally defined in gaming term/mechanic you ought to take it at its word. If you deny the MSS controller the ability to utilize Force, he is not benefiting from it.
I'm not sure where your getting this issue about choice from. I've always maintained that the MSS player has nothing to do with the spending of the charge and taking a test. They do have the ability to choose to activate force. The bearer of the weapon is then forced to follows the rules for the Force USR.
MSS does provide control of the affected model. Folks that are stating that MSS returns control (of only those 'objects') are adding words to the MSS rule. If you think there's a contextual argument to be made, I would suggest you're just plain wrong It doesn't say that. The control it's referencing is perfectly in line with the concept of Controlling Player as outlined on pg.8.
-Yad
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Yad wrote:Can you explain then how the MSS controller benefits from Force ability of the weapon
How does a non-psyker wielding a Force weapon benefit from the the Force ability of the weapon? Answer that, and you will answer your own question.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
It's the victim-psyker that's weilding the force weapon. The hits that must benefit from the force ability are from the victim-psyker...
23113
Post by: jy2
Guys, it's been 23 pages of the same argument with nothing new. "Cannot, can to, cannot, can to....."
If in a tournament, check with the TO.
In casual games, just dice off.
At this point, no one is willing to give on their interpretations so let's "agree to disagree" and move on.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
And, as pointed out, you have benefited from Force - same as when a nonpsyker wields it.
6251
Post by: NecronLord3
Happyjew wrote:Yad wrote:Can you explain then how the MSS controller benefits from Force ability of the weapon
How does a non-psyker wielding a Force weapon benefit from the the Force ability of the weapon? Answer that, and you will answer your own question.
The same way a GK Dreadnaughts does.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Which is mastery one for the purposes of psychic tests, and this invokes a psychic test. Or have you missed that part of the rule?
37399
Post by: Stoff3
Yes lets suggest that people roll for something that does not state that it overrides BRB rules. Necrons really need it too, so there's good reason.
I think we've already silently agreed to disagree. But some are horny for cheese and would not like to give it up. That irritates others, and because of that the discussion continues.
Take a look at other rules threads here for some hilarious reading about more tries for cheese by necron players. They are not alone, but well represented in that department.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
 Stoff3 wrote: But some are horny for cheese and would not like to give it up.
I do love  . Especially Pepper Jack...mmmm...pepper jack...
6251
Post by: NecronLord3
nosferatu1001 wrote:Which is mastery one for the purposes of psychic tests, and this invokes a psychic test. Or have you missed that part of the rule?
But it never generates warp charge points. Or did you miss that part yourself?
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
So RAW it cannot activate. And? Has no bearing, whatsoever, on the subject at hand - which is that MSS cannot force the psyker to spend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.
6251
Post by: NecronLord3
nosferatu1001 wrote:So RAW it cannot activate. And? Has no bearing, whatsoever, on the subject at hand - which is that MSS cannot force the psyker to spend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.
Except by RAW it can, as the Necron player controls the psyker until after all blows have been struck.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
 NecronLord3 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:So RAW it cannot activate. And? Has no bearing, whatsoever, on the subject at hand - which is that MSS cannot force the psyker to spend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.
Except by RAW it can, as the Necron player controls the psyker until after all blows have been struck[.
This is where you are wrong. The only "control" the Necron player has is what weapon is used.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
NecronLord3 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:So RAW it cannot activate. And? Has no bearing, whatsoever, on the subject at hand - which is that MSS cannot force the psyker to spend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.
Except by RAW it can, as the Necron player controls the psyker until after all blows have been struck.
And there you go, making the same "mistake" as Yad et al did. He has control for the specified actions only and no others, as explicitly denoted in the MSS rule.
Or have you not actually read the thread to this point, where your argument has been proven wrong over and over and over and over and over....
37399
Post by: Stoff3
Happyjew wrote: Stoff3 wrote: But some are horny for cheese and would not like to give it up.
I do love . Especially Pepper Jack...mmmm...pepper jack...
Damn you!  I have tried to forget about that cheese for some time now.
6251
Post by: NecronLord3
nosferatu1001 wrote: NecronLord3 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:So RAW it cannot activate. And? Has no bearing, whatsoever, on the subject at hand - which is that MSS cannot force the psyker to spend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.
Except by RAW it can, as the Necron player controls the psyker until after all blows have been struck.
And there you go, making the same "mistake" as Yad et al did. He has control for the specified actions only and no others, as explicitly denoted in the MSS rule.
Or have you not actually read the thread to this point, where your argument has been proven wrong over and over and over and over and over....
No I've read the whole thing. You are just wrong in every way, as usual. You don't need specific permission for everything. You are given blanket control of the model, for the defined time, of which the activation of force weapons not only can take place but in some instances MUST take place.
37399
Post by: Stoff3
NecronLord3 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: NecronLord3 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:So RAW it cannot activate. And? Has no bearing, whatsoever, on the subject at hand - which is that MSS cannot force the psyker to spend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.
Except by RAW it can, as the Necron player controls the psyker until after all blows have been struck.
And there you go, making the same "mistake" as Yad et al did. He has control for the specified actions only and no others, as explicitly denoted in the MSS rule.
Or have you not actually read the thread to this point, where your argument has been proven wrong over and over and over and over and over....
No I've read the whole thing. You are just wrong in every way, as usual.
Haha, this is getting quite hilarious You guys have been trying to change your arguments the entire thread, with no success. Link some text that states that the MSS text actually overrides the BRB rules for Force instead. Otherwise give up the cheese mister!
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Yeah! Some of us are hungry.
963
Post by: Mannahnin
This is going nowhere anymore. The arguments have been articulated plenty of times now.
If you have posted more than once in this thread, I hope you have written a nice detailed email to GW asking about the issue, so hopefully it can be included in the next FAQ update.
Thanks.
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