I cannot speak to for others, but 'I' am getting permission to use non-passive weapon abilities from the rules-text which states the hits made "...benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons..." as i've yet to find nor seen anyone else quote a way to 'benefit' from a property that isn't activated.

You havent produced a quote that lets you force an enemy psyker to spend a warpcharge either. Xzerios pointed it out several times, you chose to ignore it. You interpret MSS as granting you control of a model yet RAW does not explicitly grant this to you.

RAI is not RAW.

Burden of proof isnt on those of us saying it doesnt work. It relies on your side to state a convincing case. Thus far from my perspective and judging from about half the folks who voted, you have yet to do so.

It will need an FAQ and GW will have to decide for this matter to be put to rest. As simple as that.

Edit: The "you" in the context of this post refers to the pro MSS side of the argument in this discussion.

That one is simple and the answer to your question has been stated by myself and other 'pro-MSS' advocates several times:

1) MSS benefits from the Force property of the weapon
2) The only way to 'benefit' from the Force property of the weapon is to activate it.
3) Activating the Force property of the weapon requires spending a warp charge and taking a leadership check. It is not optional and you may not 'choose' which of the latter two to fulfill if the choice has already been made to activate the weapon.

The reason I say this is because the Force USR only offers one choice: wether or not to activate the weapon. The full rules-text for the Force USR has already in part and in whole been stated multiple times in this thread, so i'll not repeat it.

'Your' in this case referring to Lt.Soundwave specifically, though others have brought forth your exact argument prior to this point.

See that is where you are incorrect.

Activating the Force property of the weapon is done by the Psyker by choosing to spend a warp charge and take a Psychic test.

the MSS can not activate the weapon, as it can not spend a warp charge for the Psyker. (Unless you have a rules quote that says otherwise).

2) The only way to 'benefit' from the Force property of the weapon is to activate it.

RAI.

When the Pro side can answer the Rhetorical statement for 'he may choose' in the rule, we can continue.

Xzerios wrote:When the Pro side can answer the Rhetorical statement for 'he may choose' in the rule, we can continue.

yakface wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't match what the actual rules for 'force' say.

The full text for 'force' are:

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..."


So again, the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. This is explicitly granted by the weapon's own special rule.

Any distinction you have made that activating the weapon via a psychic test is somehow separate from the weapon is purely imagination, because as I have pointed out numerous times, the weapon's own rules dictate how this process is done.

"Im going to use your Force Weapon Special rule."
"Im going to remove a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test."


You have been given permission by MSS to do only one of these.

kirsanth, that does not refute what I said.

There is no allowance for the MSS to activate the Force USR. They can use the Force USR, and in fact have to use the Force USR from what MSS says.

However all the Force USR does is grant the attacking Psyker a choice on weather or not they activate the power by expending a Warp Charge point, and taking a psychic test.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..

No where at ANY point does this state the weapon may choose to do so or that the ability of the force weapon results in the psyker having to do so automatically.

RAW.

Maybe its that the pysker making the choice not the weapon is the problem people are having?

I see it (force) as a special rule that requires addtionial requirements to be meet. Do you have permission to require those condtions to be meet? Do you have access to the requirements to be fulfilled independently? (Or on your own) Opposing players cannot make choices for models that are not thiers, they can use certain things, as the MSS rule reads to me, but thats about it. They cannot make choices beyond the weapon, they have no permission to require the warp charge to be used, as the psyker can choose, not the weapon can choose.

 DeathReaper wrote:
kirsanth, that does not refute what I said.

It does refute it, whether you agree with it is another thing entirely.

I simply posted that because it HAS been answered. Repeatedly.

That said, I am not 100% on either side of this debate, simply annoyed at people requesting demanding responses to something that has already been responded to.

Xzerios wrote:
"Im going to use your Force Weapon Special rule."
"Im going to remove a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test."


You have been given permission by MSS to do only one of these.

So the latter isn't a requirement for the former?
So a psyker with a Force weapon can say "I'm going to use my Force weapon's special rule. I then choose not to spend a charge."?

Force wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the
test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

Activating something is the same as using it. Agreed?
Since the only clause for no additional effect is if there's no WC points or the test is failed, once activated the WC must be spent/test taken. Agreed?

I don't see how you can argue that the ability can be activated, but no WC spent/test made. The Force rule doesn't allow for that.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:RAI.

<- saying stuff like this is very easy. Offering proof of your contention on the other hand is a bit harder. I've quoted rules-text several times previously which supports my opinion.

It's time you did the same: Can you state any 'other' rules-legal way that the controller of the MSS can be said to benefit from the Force property of the psykers' weapon other than it's forced activation? (and everything that goes along with it such as the resulting leadership test)

Pg. 60 BRB. It lists several benefits for force weapons.

You choose to ignore these however and focus on your interpretation of a rule that does not specifically grant you what you claim it does.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
kirsanth, that does not refute what I said.

It does refute it, whether you agree with it is another thing entirely.

I simply posted that because it HAS been answered. Repeatedly.

That said, I am not 100% on either side of this debate, simply annoyed at people requesting demanding responses to something that has already been responded to.

It has not been answered correctly though.

This in particular is incorrect:
"the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. This is explicitly granted by the weapon's own special rule. "

This is how it should read:

the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by choosing to expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test. This choice is explicitly granted to the Psyker by the weapon's own special rule.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Pg. 60 BRB. It lists several benefits for force weapons.

You choose to ignore these however and focus on your interpretation of a rule that does not specifically grant you what you claim it does.

I've reviewed page 60 of the BRB. It does not refute my contention at all from what i can tell. Can you be more specific about how it validates your argument?

Maybe its that the pysker making the choice not the weapon is the problem people are having?

I see it (force) as a special rule that requires addtionial requirements to be meet. Do you have permission to require those condtions to be meet? Do you have access to the requirements to be fulfilled independently? (Or on your own) Opposing players cannot make choices for models that are not thiers, they can use certain things, as the MSS rule reads to me, but thats about it. They cannot make choices beyond the weapon, they have no permission to require the warp charge to be used, as the psyker can choose, not the weapon can choose.

That is where the Anti side is at more or less.

Can you state any 'other' rules-legal way that the controller of the MSS can be said to benefit from the Force property of the psykers' weapon other than it's forced activation?

That page has a table, on that table are several other benefits of various force weapons. AP value, Strength bonus's etc.

Our contention is that you gain the force property we can all agree on this.

However nowhere does the MSS rule state you are allowed to force the model to make its Psyk test. That is RAI.

And once again, No one is saying that MSS forces the psyker model to make a leadership test. It is the Force USR that 'forces' the psyker to make a leadership test.

All MSS does is force the psyker to activate his or her force weapon; by virtue of the MSS-ed attacks benefiting from all of the special rules of the weapon including the force property.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the
test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

The psyker may immediately choose. As has been repeated endlessly. The force property gives the psyker the option while using his force weapon. Nothing more.

The argument you lay out is RAI to its core.

1) MSS benefits from the Force property of the weapon.

Agreed.

2) The only way to 'benefit' from the Force property of the weapon is to activate it.

Refuted. Pg 60 BRB: Other benefits listed in table.

3) Activating the Force property of the weapon requires spending a warp charge and taking a leadership check. It is not optional and you may not 'choose' which of the latter two to fulfill if the choice has already been made to activate the weapon.

Incorrect. The force property of the weapon is always active. Is a force weapon at any time considered a non force weapon? No. there is an instead death effect that a force weapon may cause if a PSYKER chooses to do so by expending a warp charge.

As I said, MSS has the Force ability to cause ID, it just does not have the means.

 Neorealist wrote:
And once again, No one is saying that MSS forces the psyker model to make a leadership test. It is the Force USR that 'forces' the psyker to make a leadership test.

All MSS does is force the psyker to activate his or her force weapon; by virtue of the MSS-ed attacks benefiting from all of the special rules of the weapon including the force property.

I think you mean 'allows' not 'forces'

and allows not force

All the Force USR does is allow the Psyker a choice. If this choice is exercised by the Psyker, then it has additional rules.

That would be RAW. Neo seems intent on an RAI reading being the only answer. WTB FAQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All the Force USR does is allow the Psyker a choice. If this choice is exercised by the Psyker, then it has additional rules.

To be fair, it seems the people that disagree with you are saying that MSS allowing use choice of a weapon and it's abilities means that the choice to use the ability is also chosen.

/shrug

No i intended to use the word 'forces', with all that it indicates.

Yes, the force USR normally offers the psyker the choice to activate his or her force weapon or not.

MSS takes away that latter choice (to'not' activate the Force weapon) by virtue of requiring the attacks made under it's influence to include 'all the benefits' of the weapon.

From that point it's just a matter of following what the Force USR asks you to do for any psyker which has chosen to activate his or her force weapon and applying it to the unsaved wounds caused by the psyker him or herself.

 Neorealist wrote:
MSS takes away that latter choice (to'not' activate the Force weapon) by virtue of requiring the attacks made under it's influence to include 'all the benefits' of the weapon.

Except the MSS rule does not say that, so it can not be true.

The only benefit of the Force USR is that the Psyker can make a choice for additional effects.

Expending a Warp Charge point is not an ability or benefit of the weapon. We know this is true because a weapon with the Force USR in the hands of a non-psychic Inquisitor can not expend a Warp Charge point.

Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

You cannot pick and choose which aspects of an ability to use, only the ability itself.

For example, I mindshackle a space marine captain with a thunderhammer. I cannot choose to have him strike himself with the thunderhammer and then choose for him not to suffer Instant Death. It's all or nothing. If I choose him to hit himself with the thunderhammer, then he suffers all the consequences that follows with it, including getting ID'd if he isn't Eternal Warrior or striking at I1 next turn if he is.

In the non psychic inquisitors case we also know he can't activate force in the first place.

We never said there weren't restrictions. If you have already used a warp charge to cast hammer and you also can't make your opponent take the test.

 Lukus83 wrote:
In the non psychic inquisitors case we also know he can't activate force in the first place.

We never said there weren't restrictions. If you have already used a warp charge to cast hammer and you also can't make your opponent take the test.

It also serves to illustrate that expending a Warp Charge point is not a ability or benefit of the weapon, so MSS does not force its use.

DeathReaper wrote:The only benefit of the Force USR is that the Psyker can make a choice for additional effects.

This is an interesting interpretation.

By that logic: you wouldn't consider the ability to 'instant death' something upon a successful leadership check and warp charge expenditure to be a 'benefit' of the force weapon, and further one which could not be used if the psyker has not activated the weapon?

Once the choice is invoked the effects are benefits of the Force USR.

MSS does not have the ability to make that choice, so it gains no additional benefit.

DeathReaper wrote:Once the choice is invoked the effects are benefits of the Force USR. MSS does not have the ability to make that choice, so it gains no additional benefit.

As I understand it though MSS can force the Psyker's player to activate their force weapon with all that entails in order to fulfill it's requirement of granting access to 'all' of the melee weapons' abilities and penalties. in a nutshell the only way to benefit from the 'force' property is via activation, otherwise it does nothing.

Edit: the Force USR is not unique in this aspect though. Any weapon which grants a re-roll on failed to wound rolls (Like Poisoned weapons in certain situations) functions similarly, as does the Axe Morkai and other weapons with choices to be made in how they are used in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Lukus83 wrote:
In the non psychic inquisitors case we also know he can't activate force in the first place.

We never said there weren't restrictions. If you have already used a warp charge to cast hammer and you also can't make your opponent take the test.

It also serves to illustrate that expending a Warp Charge point is not a ability or benefit of the weapon, so MSS does not force its use.

Except that Force requires you to expend a warp charge since that is how it is activated.

It may not be directly associated with the weapon, but Force certainly is. I can see your argument, I really do. I cannot however accept the separation of "Force" and the rules that show you how to use it. To activate Force you must expend a warp charge. If there are no warp charges left fair enough, but again, if you wish to activate Force you must have FULL access to the rules that govern it's use. I just can't see it any other way.

And on that point I am also bowing out. Our local tournament ruling has allowed it until an FAQ states otherwise (I directed them to this thread to allow them to decide for themselves).
Tournament Round 2 preparation awaits...

Not requires, Choosing to spend the warp charge is how it is activated.

If the warp charge were required it would be automatically spent and the psyker would not have a choice.

MSS can not force the psyker to spend a warp charge because spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon.

Spending a warp charge is the ability of the psyker.

MSS can not make a psyker spend a Warp Charge point.

If you do not expend the Warp Charge has Force been activated? If the answer is no the rules for MSS have been violated.

Sorry. Really butting out now (at least, I will try to...damned internet's everywhere these days).

 Lukus83 wrote:
If you do not expend the Warp Charge has Force been activated? If the answer is no the rules for MSS have been violated.

Sorry. Really butting out now (at least, I will try to...damned internet's everywhere these days).

Force is always active. The instant death part requires activation, but activation isn't mandatory and the weapon still functions just fine without it. So yes, force is active without spending a warp charge. Optionally expending a warp charge just enhances it. And nothing in the MSS rule gives you that option.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not requires, Choosing to spend the warp charge is how it is activated.

If the warp charge were required it would be automatically spent and the psyker would not have a choice.

MSS can not force the psyker to spend a warp charge because spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon.

Spending a warp charge is the ability of the psyker.

MSS can not make a psyker spend a Warp Charge point.

So MSS cannot make use of the Force SR?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not requires, Choosing to spend the warp charge is how it is activated.

If the warp charge were required it would be automatically spent and the psyker would not have a choice.

MSS can not force the psyker to spend a warp charge because spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon.

Spending a warp charge is the ability of the psyker.

MSS can not make a psyker spend a Warp Charge point.

So MSS cannot make use of the Force SR?

It can, but Force on its own only allows a choice to expend a warp charge to get its additional effects and that only happens when the psyker chooses to expend a warp charge, as all Force does is give the psyker a choice to expend a charge to inflict ID. (Barring the passage of a psychic test that is).

So you inflict D3 wounds with the psykers weapon with the Force USE, and the psyker gets to choose to expend the warp charge to have those wounds cause ID.


In reality though the psyker will not have a warp charge to spend 99.99999% of the time anyway.

That's a long winded way of saying "No, it can't.".
I still don't know why you're taking a requirement of the activation and assuming its a second activation choice.

Because nowhere in the rules for MSS do you get to choose to use rules - you just "get" them. Choice is not a part of the MSS rule, apart from what weapon.

Find where you get the choice to use specific abilities - it isnt there. So you cannot be the one who chooses.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because nowhere in the rules for MSS do you get to choose to use rules - you just "get" them. Choice is not a part of the MSS rule, apart from what weapon.

Find where you get the choice to use specific abilities - it isnt there. So you cannot be the one who chooses.

You're right, I don't get to choose. MSS just forces the activation.
Now the requirements must be met.

 Lukus83 wrote:
If you do not expend the Warp Charge has Force been activated? If the answer is no the rules for MSS have been violated.

Sorry. Really butting out now (at least, I will try to...damned internet's everywhere these days).

Well the stuff that happens has to be legal. Nowhere in the MSS rules does it say that the necron player has full control over the affected model, and because of that the attacks may most certainly benefit from legal abilities. But since the activation of Force is clearly stated in the rule book as the choice of the psyker (owner of the model) that special rule is illegal to work with MSS and the choice of activation is solely up to the psyker.

The case you are arguing would refer to a rule that just should say that MSS has total control over the model, and that is clearly not the case.

As I have said before, I can see this being faq'd in either direction since the text in the MSS rule is quite weak. But in my opinion if it was gw's intention of making the rule as you choose to interprete it I believe they would have just stated that the model is completely under the MSS owners control, which they didn't do even they second time the wrote the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
And once again, No one is saying that MSS forces the psyker model to make a leadership test. It is the Force USR that 'forces' the psyker to make a leadership test.

All MSS does is force the psyker to activate his or her force weapon; by virtue of the MSS-ed attacks benefiting from all of the special rules of the weapon including the force property.

And there you break the core rules. Because in the special rules section in the 6th editoin core rules it specificly says that the psyker has a choice of whether to activate or not. So the Force USR can not force anyone to activate it. To do so it must say exactly that in the MSS rules or in the faq, which it doesn't.

MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

They are using the Force USR by giving the Psyker a choice to expend a Warp Charge point or not.

That is what the Force USR does. It allows for a choice.

It's really that simple.

Round and round you go. And again the answer is the same. The only choice ever given is that of the activation of the force weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

They are using the Force USR by giving the Psyker a choice to expend a Warp Charge point or not.

That is what the Force USR does. It allows for a choice.

It's really that simple.

Again, you're assuming the requirement of activation is actually the activation.
I'm still not sure why you say that.

Force doesn't say "If you cause a wound you can activate Force. Then you can choose to spend a Warp Charge, etc."
You activate Force by spending the Warp Charge and passing the test.
MSS uses all abilities and penalties of the weapon. Force is an ability of the weapon.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it...

So Psyker has inflicted a wound, and the necron player wants to use the force ability of the weapon. The Psyker must now take his test.

I don't see any choice about spending the warp charge, I see a choice about activating force, which the Necron player is using.

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities. You are just assuming that it's that way gw meant it to work. We who do not think that way separate the abilities of a weapon which MUST happen because you do not have a choice and the special rules which are activated by choice. Does MSS say that you can make choices of the model affected by MSS, nope it doesn't. And just as I can't ignore to instant kill someone with a str 8 hit if their toughness is 4 because it isn't my choice to make, I also can ignore to ID someone with a force weapon since it's clearly according to the 6th edition rules MY choice to make.

There is no benefit from the "force" special rule, not until the psyker has made a choice about activating it or not. And as posted 100 times in this thread, MSS rules does not say that the necron player controls the model.

The only choice ever given is that of the activation of the force weapon. MSS makes the psyker activate the force weapon since that is the only way its hits are going to benefit from the "force" rule.

PS Circular arguments bring circular counter arguments. Until you can quote how the spending of the warp charge is a choice by itself and unrelated to the choice of activating the weapon, I don't think there is much to add to this topic.

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities.

So "benefit from any abilities" doesn't mean special rules are activated?

copper.talos wrote:
The only choice ever given is that of the activation of the force weapon. MSS makes the psyker activate the force weapon since that is the only way its hits are going to benefit from the "force" rule.

PS Circular arguments bring circular counter arguments. Until you can quote how the spending of the warp charge is a choice by itself and unrelated to the choice of activating the weapon, I don't think there is much to add to this topic.

So you recognize the fact that it isn't the weapon itself that activates? It's clearly stated under "Force" in the 6th edition rulebook that it is a choice by itself made by the psyker. Feel free to read it.

Just because you can't benefit from something because rules hinder it doesn't mean than everything will bend after MSS quite weak ruling text. You will benefit from the abilities you CAN benefit from, not from those who contains a choice not being allowed to be made by the necron player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities.

So "benefit from any abilities" doesn't mean special rules are activated?

If it was abilities that activates by the weapon itself and there's no choice then it would activate. But there's no way in hell people are gonna accept that you will get to benefit from an ability created by a legit choice made by the owner of the model, then you are plain out skipping one step. As I said before, you will benefit from abilities you CAN benefit from, but as it's not your choice to make you can't benefit from the ID special rule, unless the psyker chooses to activate the ID special rule. You know, a force sword can be used without activating the ID special rule.

Stoff read the Force section I just posted.

MSS allows the Necron player to use the Force special rule. The choice of Force is if a wound was caused, Force can be declared. Since it was declared, the Psyker must then, Spend the Warp Charge (if available) and take a perils test.

 Stoff3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities.

So "benefit from any abilities" doesn't mean special rules are activated?

If it was abilities that activates by the weapon itself and there's no choice then it would activate. But there's no way in hell people are gonna accept that you will get to benefit from an ability created by a legit choice made by the owner of the model, then you are plain out skipping one step. As I said before, you will benefit from abilities you CAN benefit from, but as it's not your choice to make you can't benefit from the ID special rule, unless the psyker chooses to activate the ID special rule. You know, a force sword can be used without activating the ID special rule.

So your answer is "Yes, "benefit from any abilities" does not mean special rules are activated." or re-worded to be less cumbersome, ""benefit from any abilities" does not mean special rules are activated."
So then I'm not benefiting from that ability. And MSS says I must.

Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

Normally, only "a psyker."
But again, the MSS must override that because the hits must "benefit from any abilities".
If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

Normally, only "a psyker."
But again, the MSS must override that because the hits must "benefit from any abilities".
If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

This is incorrect, as has already been posted in this thread the force property is always on. You benefit from it 100% of the time at no point is the weapon NOT a force weapon.

Nothing in MSS lets you make that choice for the psyker about to activate or not. That is pure RAI.

Exactly how can you benefit from the force ability of a force weapon without activating it in the 1st place?

Because your weapon always HAS the Force ability

Nowhere in the MSS rule are you allowed to *choose* to activate abilities. The ONLY choice you get is over which weapon to choose

You benefit from Force, as it is a property of the weapon. Nothing allows you the choice to activate it.

Find the choice to activate a weapons special abilities by forcingt a psyker to manifest a psychic power. If you do not do so you must concede the argument

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

Normally, only "a psyker."
But again, the MSS must override that because the hits must "benefit from any abilities".
If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

MSS is benefiting from the ability.

Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.

The MSS give the Psyker that choice as well. thus MSS had benefited from that ability.

If the psyker chooses to take it or not is on the Psyker. as expending a warp charge point is not an ability of the weapon.

We know this because in the hands of a non-psyker force does not activate.

 DeathReaper wrote:

MSS is benefiting from the ability.

According to you, it's not. Because if the ability isn't activated, MSS isn't benefiting from it. MSS forces the activation.

Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.

Agreed in general.

The MSS give the Psyker that choice as well. thus MSS had benefited from that ability.

False. You're making the Warp Charge+Test separate from the activation of the Force ability.
If the ability is activated, the WC+Test requirement must be met.

If the psyker chooses to take it or not is on the Psyker. as expending a warp charge point is not an ability of the weapon.

Please stop with this. It's insulting to insinuate that I've argued that. I haven't.

We know this because in the hands of a non-psyker force does not activate.

No, it does not activate in the hands of a non-psyker because Force only gives the options to Psykers and non-psykers cannot meet the requirements of the ability.
Not because "expending a warp charge point is not an ability of the weapon".

Please, debate what I've actually said, not what you want to pretend I've said.

According to you, it's not. Because if the ability isn't activated, MSS isn't benefiting from it. MSS forces the activation.

Incorrect.

MSS is benefiting from the ability.

Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.

The MSS give the Psyker that choice as well. thus MSS had benefited from that ability.

BOTH allow the choice. THAT is the benefit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You benefit from Force, as it is a property of the weapon. Nothing allows you the choice to activate it.

To benefit from an ability it must be activated. Without requiring activation there's no benefit.

Find the choice to activate a weapons special abilities by forcingt a psyker to manifest a psychic power. If you do not do so you must concede the argument

False. Find the allowance to benefit from Force without activating it. Note that giving your opponent a choice isn't a benefit.

It's also not a penalty associated with the weapon so doesn't fall under the penalties clause in MSS.


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 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
BOTH allow the choice. THAT is the benefit.

That's an interesting definition of benefit. It's something that doesn't help the MSS attack/owner in any way, but it's a benefit?

You are "benefitting" from the ability - the weapon does not stop being a Force weapon, does it? Thus you have benefitted from the Force rule.

You are creating this idea that the only way to benefit from a rule is to be allowed to make choices about the rule - that is not a strict reading of the term "benefit"

There is *no* allowance to make a choice about an ability given in MSS, therefore you are *not* allowed to make any choices not explicitly given

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You benefit from Force, as it is a property of the weapon. Nothing allows you the choice to activate it.

To benefit from an ability it must be activated. Without requiring activation there's no benefit.

Find the choice to activate a weapons special abilities by forcingt a psyker to manifest a psychic power. If you do not do so you must concede the argument

False. Find the allowance to benefit from Force without activating it. Note that giving your opponent a choice isn't a benefit.

It's also not a penalty associated with the weapon so doesn't fall under the penalties clause in MSS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
BOTH allow the choice. THAT is the benefit.

That's an interesting definition of benefit. It's something that doesn't help the MSS attack/owner in any way, but it's a benefit?

Which is why Ive stated repeatedly that you are using RAI. Having the force property and offering the choice IS a benefit that it would not otherwise have, period.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

MSS is benefiting from the ability.

According to you, it's not. Because if the ability isn't activated, MSS isn't benefiting from it. MSS forces the activation.

Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.

Agreed in general.

If you agree that Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate, then MSS is benefiting from the ability because all the Force ability does is give the psyker a choice.

MSS is benefiting by giving the psyker that choice as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are creating this idea that the only way to benefit from a rule is to be allowed to make choices about the rule - that is not a strict reading of the term "benefit"

That's not what I'm saying at all.
I don't care about making choices - I'm saying that the rule is activated. There is no choice involved.

You're the one separating any benefit of the rule from the activation of the rule.

There is *no* allowance to make a choice about an ability given in MSS, therefore you are *not* allowed to make any choices not explicitly given

I'm not making a choice. I'm forcing the activation of a rule because I must benefit from all abilities.

Having the force property and offering the choice IS a benefit that it would not otherwise have, period.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you agree that Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate, then MSS is benefiting from the ability because all the Force ability does is give the psyker a choice.

You're separating the "choice" from the activation of the ability.

The choice *is* the activation. It's not separate.
MSS must benefit from the ability, therefore the activation is forced - no choice involved.


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 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

Having the force property and offering the choice IS a benefit that it would not otherwise have, period.

So you'd have this exact same stance if, for example, Shred gave you the option to re-roll to wound?
IE you MSS Shrike, he'd be able to opt not to re-roll wounds on himself?

There's no benefit without function.

Right the psyker chooses to expend a Warp Charge point, that is how the weapon is activated.

MSS does not force the use of the Psykers Warp Charge point as the MSS rule does not say it can, so it can't

There's no benefit without function.

RAI.

The fact the choice exists at all where otherwise there would be none is a benefit.

Sorry, it's also just your opinion (rather than RAW) to presume that having a choice in the matter (and choosing not to activate the force weapon) fulfills the MSS rules, specifically the part that says the attacks 'benefit from any abilities'.

I'd still like to see someone explain how the attack are receiving 'all the benefits' of the force property of a weapon if the choice is not made (or 'forced') to activate it.

I believe its page 60 of the BRB which has a table regarding force weapons. I pointed it out several pages back.

On this table is a listing of several benefits various force weapons grant.

Sorry, it's also just your opinion (rather than RAW) to presume that having a choice in the matter (and choosing not to activate the force weapon) fulfills the MSS rules, specifically the part that says the attacks 'benefit from any abilities'.

also this is irrelevant. Burden of proof. The onus is on you to say why my good sir, the onus is not on us to say why not.

Thus far the pro side has not constructed an argument that was non RAI at any point in this entire discussion.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I believe its page 60 of the BRB which has a table regarding force weapons. I pointed it out several pages back.

The table that lists Melee, Force?
How is that benefiting from the Force ability?

Note that a "Force Weapon" is a different thing from the "Force" SR, and MSS says that the hits must benefit from all abilities of the weapon.
So your table reference is useless.

Thus far the pro side has not constructed an argument that was non RAI at any point in this entire discussion.

No, your refusal to accept an argument that is written does not make it RAI. The fact that you've pointed out the irrelevant table twice now reinforces the point that you don't understand the argument being presented against you.

As written, MSS must benefit from the Force SR.
As written, the Force SR requires activation.
As written, MSS does not benefit from the Force SR without forcing activation.

As written, MSS must benefit from the Force SR.

Agreed.

As written, the Force SR requires activation.

RAI.

As written, MSS does not benefit from the Force SR without forcing activation.

RAI.

That table does list 'some' of the benefits of force weapons yes. However the attacks do not benefit from 'some' of the abilities, they benefit from 'any' of the abilities of the weapon.

Unless all (not just some) of the weapons abilities are active and available to the Necron player, the MSS rules-text has not been fulfilled. This includes the optional parts in this case the part of the Force USR after the word 'chooses'.

As for burden of proof? it doesn't get more explicit than 'If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat has been struck."

How does a model 'return' to someone's control if they never 'left' their control (as you've been contending regarding the choice to activate the force weapon) in the first place?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

As written, the Force SR requires activation.

RAI.

So it's always on? Or it's activated? Or is there some 3rd state in the rules I'm not familiar with?

As written, MSS does not benefit from the Force SR without forcing activation.

RAI.

You still haven't shown a benefit to the Force SR if it's not activated.

Unless all (not just some) of the weapons abilities are active and available to the Necron player, the MSS rules-text has not been fulfilled. This includes the optional parts in this case the part of the Force USR after the word 'chooses'.

As Death has pointed out, No where in the force weapon property SR etc does the weapon do anything but offer a choice to the psyker.

So it's always on? Or it's activated? Or is there some 3rd state in the rules I'm not familiar with?

This has been covered. Re read the posts.

You still haven't shown a benefit to the Force SR if it's not activated.

Numerous people have, you choose to ignore it.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

So it's always on? Or it's activated? Or is there some 3rd state in the rules I'm not familiar with?

This has been covered. Re read the posts.

I'm assuming because you bolded that answer it's always on - which means you're separating the activation of the ability from the requirements of the ability.
Again. No one has been able to provide a rules reason why that's being done.

You still haven't shown a benefit to the Force SR if it's not activated.

Numerous people have, you choose to ignore it.

No, allowing the opponent to make a choice for me is not a benefit. Since the rules don't define the word (I'm pretty sure - correct me if I'm wrong) we can go with the plain english definition on this one.

we can go with the plain english definition on this one.

Having the force property of the weapon is a benefit you would not otherwise have. Allowing the psyker model the choice to activate the ID property of the weapon is a choice you would not otherwise have.

Both of these are benefits, you are choosing to ignore them in favor of another benefit you would like to have. One the weapon simply cannot achieve.

It's not so much that the 'pro-MSS' would like to have extra benefits, as the fact that having access to 'all' of the abilities of a given weapon 'grants' them that benefit.

Also you may want to address how a model can be said to return to the owning players' control without having 'left' the owning players control?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Allowing the psyker model the choice to activate the ID property of the weapon is a choice you would not otherwise have

Part of the issue is that at this point, the model's choices are being made by the Necron.

It is rather easy to read that the choices allowed by the parenthetical include the abilities.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

we can go with the plain english definition on this one.

Having the force property of the weapon is a benefit you would not otherwise have.

Which, by itself, does nothing - because it must be activated.

Both of these are benefits, you are choosing to ignore them in favor of another benefit you would like to have. One the weapon simply cannot achieve.

You're assigning bias. You shouldn't.

Heh, I see bias. Hence the phrasing.

Tyranids have no dog in this race.

As it were.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

we can go with the plain english definition on this one.

Having the force property of the weapon is a benefit you would not otherwise have.

Which, by itself, does nothing - because it must be activated.

Which is why I have said,

MSS has the ability to cause ID with a FW, but does not have the means.

If it was within the force weapons abilities to take a psychic test to activate, then it would have both the ability and the means. Look at it this way,

You have a hammer in your right hand. You are allowed to do anything with that hammer that is allowed with a hammer. However, the hammer does not have the ability to force you to hold a nail with your left hand so that it can hammer it into a wall. You could still smash plates with the hammer, bash someones skull in, or squish ants on the sidewalk outside, however it does not have the ability to force your left hand to hold a nail to hammer it into the wall.

It has the ability to hammer a nail into a wall, but does not have the means to hold a nail.

Tyranids have no dog in this race.

As it were.

Bias takes many forms.

Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with?

 Neorealist wrote:
Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with for the purposes of activating the models' force weapon?

I am part of the no crowd and your point has no bearing on my point at all. MSS allows all abilities and benefits of the force weapon. Taking a psychic test is not an ability of the force weapon. So control the player all you want and benefit from the weapons abilities, however taking a psychic test is still not an ability of the weapon.

How about this as a compromise,

MSS can activate a FW when you can show me the FW's leadership value for taking a psychic test. Sound good?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Heh, I see bias. Hence the phrasing.

Allow me to politely correct you - I have no bias either for or against.
I do my absolute best to remove myself from discussion I don't feel I can remain objective in.

It's easy to ignore someone else's view by assigning bias. I could accuse you of being biased as well. It'd be insulting and degrade your argument. Which is why I don't do it.


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Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with for the purposes of activating the models' force weapon?

I am part of the no crowd and your point has no bearing on my point at all. MSS allows all abilities and benefits of the force weapon.

It actually has lots of bearing if you've been following the thread.

Taking a psychic test is not an ability of the force weapon.

Absolutely 100% correct. Good job with that one!

Force is an ability of the weapon. Even the most ardent no-supporters have agreed that MSS activates the Force SR, but cannot make the choice for the Psyker.
If the Psyker isn't under the owner's control, the decision isn't up to the psyker.

So control the player all you want and benefit from the weapons abilities, however taking a psychic test is still not an ability of the weapon.

And it never will be. Force, however, is.

Your premise is predicated on your interpretation of percieved benefit RAI as opposed to RAW.

Given that you cling to this one interpretation while claiming no others exist despite being shown examples?

If that isnt indicative of some kind of bias I would genuinely be surprised.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Your premise is predicated on your interpretation of percieved benefit RAI as opposed to RAW.

It's not really. But you can keep thinking that.

Given that you cling to this one interpretation while claiming no others exist despite being shown examples?

You mean shown examples that aren't actually benefits?

If that isnt indicative of some kind of bias I would genuinely be surprised.

Then be surprised. Or don't. Either way.

You mean shown examples that aren't actually benefits?

Your interpretation

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Heh, I see bias. Hence the phrasing.

Allow me to politely correct you - I have no bias either for or against.
I do my absolute best to remove myself from discussion I don't feel I can remain objective in.

It's easy to ignore someone else's view by assigning bias. I could accuse you of being biased as well. It'd be insulting and degrade your argument. Which is why I don't do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with for the purposes of activating the models' force weapon?

I am part of the no crowd and your point has no bearing on my point at all. MSS allows all abilities and benefits of the force weapon.

It actually has lots of bearing if you've been following the thread.

Taking a psychic test is not an ability of the force weapon.

Absolutely 100% correct. Good job with that one!

Force is an ability of the weapon. Even the most ardent no-supporters have agreed that MSS activates the Force SR, but cannot make the choice for the Psyker.
If the Psyker isn't under the owner's control, the decision isn't up to the psyker.

So control the player all you want and benefit from the weapons abilities, however taking a psychic test is still not an ability of the weapon.

And it never will be. Force, however, is.

I have been following the thread and your flawed point is noted.

The FW has the ability to cause ID predicated upon the psyker passing a psychic test. The rules for MSS do not extend to controlling the abilities of the psyker. By your standard is the psker was mastery level 2, you could cast Hammerhand and after wounding take the psychic test to activate the FW. While the fluff indicates that the enemy is mind controlled, the attacks only benefit from abilities and benefits of the weapon. In the case of ID it is as I have been saying this whole time,

MSS has the ability to ID with the FW (weapon abilities), but does not have the means (activation via psychic test).

Notice what I included in the parentheses as that is where you are mistaken in thinking that the FW has both the ability and the means to cause ID.

 Neorealist wrote:
Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with?

This is a poor try tbh. I will counter-question you. Where does it in the MSS rules say that you get total control of the model?

It's not very strange that they phrase it like they do in the end because the necron player indeed gets to choose which weapon the affected model uses and therefore you could easily assume that the model in some small way is not entirely under it's owners control. That does however not mean that the model is under the control of the necron player.

Stoff3 wrote:This is a poor try tbh. I will counter-question you. Where does it in the MSS rules say that you get total control of the model?

It's not very strange that they phrase it like they do in the end because the necron player indeed gets to choose which weapon the affected model uses and therefore you could easily assume that the model in some small way is not entirely under it's owners control. That does however not mean that the model is under the control of the necron player.

I don't know about that, i figured it's in the rules-text of MSS so it's a fair question to ask.

To answer yours (even though you did not answer mine?)

MSS says so. And I quote: "Mindshackle Scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victims mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under control of the scarab's master..."

I don't know about you? But that seems to indicate the necron player is 'in control' of the model, which he subsequently loses once blows have been struck as per the rules-text i quoted earlier.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The FW has the ability to cause ID predicated upon the psyker passing a psychic test. The rules for MSS do not extend to controlling the abilities of the psyker. By your standard is the psker was mastery level 2, you could cast Hammerhand and after wounding take the psychic test to activate the FW.

False, strawman. No one has asserted that and it's not even implied by these arguments.

MSS has the ability to ID with the FW (weapon abilities), but does not have the means (activation via psychic test).

Notice what I included in the parentheses as that is where you are mistaken in thinking that the FW has both the ability and the means to cause ID.

I don't think that. You obviously haven't read what I've said.

The Force ability (note - not Force Weapon as you're claiming I've said) causes ID on activation. There are requirements for the activation. One of those requirements is for the psyker to take a test.
MSS forces the activation and therefore test.


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 Stoff3 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with?

This is a poor try tbh. I will counter-question you. Where does it in the MSS rules say that you get total control of the model?

It's not very strange that they phrase it like they do in the end because the necron player indeed gets to choose which weapon the affected model uses and therefore you could easily assume that the model in some small way is not entirely under it's owners control. That does however not mean that the model is under the control of the necron player.

Since it's in the rules that control is returned, then it's factual that control must have been relinquished at some point.
Similar to how in 5th one of the ways we knew an IC was a normal member of a squad was because "these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined".
If they are once again normal members, that means that while they weren't for some period of time (during the assault phase) they must have been before that.

 Neorealist wrote:

Stoff3 wrote:This is a poor try tbh. I will counter-question you. Where does it in the MSS rules say that you get total control of the model?

It's not very strange that they phrase it like they do in the end because the necron player indeed gets to choose which weapon the affected model uses and therefore you could easily assume that the model in some small way is not entirely under it's owners control. That does however not mean that the model is under the control of the necron player.

I don't know about that, i figured it's in the rules-text of MSS so it's a fair question to ask.

To answer yours (even though you did not answer mine?)

MSS says so. And I quote: "Mindshackle Scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victims mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under control of the scarab's master..."

I don't know about you? But that seems to indicate the necron player is 'in control' of the model, which he subsequently loses once blows have been struck as per the rules-text i quoted earlier.

I'd not recommend using that part of the MSS rule as justification, it reads to much like fluff then an actual rule. However, the part that reads, "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat has been struck.", most certainly reads like an actual rule. It references your opponent (owning player); control of the affected model (owning player's control); an action and when it takes place in the sub-phase of the Assault phase (paraphrase: return control once all attacks have been made). It even has a pre-condition for this action (the 'victim' must still be 'alive'.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can't read that statement and think that the MSS controller doesn't have full control over the affected model. Which includes, per the MSS rule full access to the abilities of the affected model's CC weapon(s).

-Yad

Edit: My impression is that you seem to think it needs to read 'full control', otherwise you're free to assign any level of control. I would suggest that control is full control unless otherwise specified. MSS works in a very narrow window of time in the Assault phase.

 Neorealist wrote:


To answer yours (even though you did not answer mine?)

MSS says so. And I quote: "Mindshackle Scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victims mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under control of the scarab's master..."

I don't know about you? But that seems to indicate the necron player is 'in control' of the model, which he subsequently loses once blows have been struck as per the rules-text i quoted earlier.

Interestingly enough there are no actual rules in that quote.

Yad wrote:
However, the part that reads, "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat has been struck.", most certainly reads like an actual rule. It references your opponent (owning player); control of the affected model (owning player's control); an action and when it takes place in the sub-phase of the Assault phase (paraphrase: return control once all attacks have been made). It even has a pre-condition for this action (the 'victim' must still be 'alive'.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can't read that statement and think that the MSS controller doesn't have full control over the affected model. Which includes, per the MSS rule full access to the abilities of the affected model's CC weapon(s).

-Yad

Well that is because it does not say they have full control over the model.

That is why they do not have full control over the model.

The force rule has an on/off switch. If a psyker hits the switch the weapon drains them of a warp charge and forces a psychic test.

You flip the switch of a flashlight into the on position. The battery is drained of some if it's energy and the flashlight demon randomly decides, based on your awesomeness rating, whether or not the flashlight emits light and whether or not to smack you in the face. Oh and the battery is actually your soul and not located in the flashlight, but it works for some reason.

The argument here is whether or not MSS can force the psyker to hit the aforementioned switch. Any arguments about the psyker being the sole gatekeeper of warp charges and having to take psychic tests has no merit in the rules as they are written.

And while we're at it how about the 5-6 result of the Hallucination Telepathy power since it has different wording from MSS.

Oh i agree, the part i quoted is likely flavour-text describing the wargear rather than rules-text describing how it works.

However i'd already quoted the latter note regarding how the model returns to control of the owning player afterward blows are struck, and didn't see that i should simply repeat it over and over again until the other poster acknowledged it as true. I like to keep things fresh if i can.

This may be a better one: (or at least, is from the FAQ as part of the rules-text section of the MSS writeup)

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a leadership test on 3d6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the control of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

1) The victim (psyker) strikes out at his allies.
2) The hits are resolved using any abilities from his melee weapons. (note, not just the passive ones)
3) The victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows have been struck.

So, does MSS grant control of the psyker? it seems that it does. Does control of the psyker allow one to make choices for that model? I'd say yes. Is there something unusual about the Force property that would prevent an MSS-controlled psyker from using it as it is listed in it's rules-text? I do not think so.

.

 Neorealist wrote:

1) The victim strikes out at his allies.
2) The hits are resolved using any abilities from his melee weapons.
3) The victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows have been struck.
.

1) Fluff
2) Actual Rules that tell you what the Fluff means.
3) Rules that tell you the victim is no longer shackled and can strike blows normally in the next combat.

 Neorealist wrote:

Stoff3 wrote:This is a poor try tbh. I will counter-question you. Where does it in the MSS rules say that you get total control of the model?

It's not very strange that they phrase it like they do in the end because the necron player indeed gets to choose which weapon the affected model uses and therefore you could easily assume that the model in some small way is not entirely under it's owners control. That does however not mean that the model is under the control of the necron player.

I don't know about that, i figured it's in the rules-text of MSS so it's a fair question to ask.

To answer yours (even though you did not answer mine?)

MSS says so. And I quote: "Mindshackle Scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victims mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under control of the scarab's master..."

I don't know about you? But that seems to indicate the necron player is 'in control' of the model, which he subsequently loses once blows have been struck as per the rules-text i quoted earlier.

Ouch, your credibility in this discussion took a real hit there. Refering to fluff text when trying to argue about a rule?

Want me to refer to fluff text about Grey Knights and how one marine destroys 20 necron warriors in one blow? We'll just ignore the actual rules and say that one grey knight marine kills 20 necron warriors when they clash on the table ok?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yad wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

Stoff3 wrote:This is a poor try tbh. I will counter-question you. Where does it in the MSS rules say that you get total control of the model?

It's not very strange that they phrase it like they do in the end because the necron player indeed gets to choose which weapon the affected model uses and therefore you could easily assume that the model in some small way is not entirely under it's owners control. That does however not mean that the model is under the control of the necron player.

I don't know about that, i figured it's in the rules-text of MSS so it's a fair question to ask.

To answer yours (even though you did not answer mine?)

MSS says so. And I quote: "Mindshackle Scarabs are one of the Necrons' chief methods of controlling alien races. At the bearer's command, tiny scarabs bury into the victims mind and bypass cerebral functions, turning the victim into little more than a puppet under control of the scarab's master..."

I don't know about you? But that seems to indicate the necron player is 'in control' of the model, which he subsequently loses once blows have been struck as per the rules-text i quoted earlier.

I'd not recommend using that part of the MSS rule as justification, it reads to much like fluff then an actual rule. However, the part that reads, "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat has been struck.", most certainly reads like an actual rule. It references your opponent (owning player); control of the affected model (owning player's control); an action and when it takes place in the sub-phase of the Assault phase (paraphrase: return control once all attacks have been made). It even has a pre-condition for this action (the 'victim' must still be 'alive'.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that you can't read that statement and think that the MSS controller doesn't have full control over the affected model. Which includes, per the MSS rule full access to the abilities of the affected model's CC weapon(s).

-Yad

Edit: My impression is that you seem to think it needs to read 'full control', otherwise you're free to assign any level of control. I would suggest that control is full control unless otherwise specified. MSS works in a very narrow window of time in the Assault phase.

Good call about the fluff text nonsense there. We finally agree on something

As for the return of control part. You must surely be able to consider the option that if the model was under total control they would written that insted of carefully stating what the necron player may do? The fact that they write that the necron player is in control of the choice of weapon is something that tells us that the model isn't really entirely under the necron players control because otherwise it would be really unnecessary to state that detail.

YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

Stoff3 wrote:Ouch, your credibility in this discussion took a real hit there. Refering to fluff text when trying to argue about a rule?

Oh dear me, i am ever so worried about what you think about my credibility. I'd refer you to multiple prior posts containing various rules presented in this topic if you want something actually relevent to debate about, rather than wasting time with comments like the above.

In any case, the topic at hand.

Has anyone determined what specific level of control of the model has been granted by MSS?

 Neorealist wrote:
Has anyone determined what specific level of control of the model has been granted by MSS?

Yes, it allows what the actual MSS rules allow.

That being the choice of CCW's

that is what level of control it has.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

I think you and DeathReaper may be ignoring the actual text of the MSS with regards to control, as well as how control is defined in the BRB. The only place I've found in the BRB where it specifically talks about 'control' is on pg.8, left column (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player).

To quote:
"Sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent."

Now couple that with the Basic versus Advanced rule found on the preceding page (pg.7). The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

Edit: removed 'deliberately' as there is no way for me to know your actual motives

Yad wrote:
The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

As for the underlined:

Yes the MSS gives some control to the opponent, but that is only which CCW to use.

This is covered in the MSS rules.

DeathReaper wrote:Yes, it allows what the actual MSS rules allow.

That being the choice of CCW's

that is what level of control it has.

Not exactly. It also allows access to any abilities and penalties the chosen melee weapon has.

As such, how would the Necron player access the optional instant death property of a force weapon using your logic?

They don't access the optional instant death property of a force weapon as expending a Warp Charge point is not an abilities or penalties the chosen melee weapon has...


The only level of control the MSS rule states is which weapon to choose if there is a choice.

they benefit from the chosen weapons abilities or penalties, as normal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

Except that is a benefit. The light, airy dining room makes the house better. Your assumption wrt Force does nothing for the MSS user meaning it doesn't benefit them.

DeathReaper wrote:They don't access the optional instant death property of a force weapon as expending a Warp Charge point is not an abilities or penalties the chosen melee weapon has...

Who is talking about Warp Charges? I'm asking you how would the Necron player access the optional instant death property of a force weapon using your logic?

You seem to be saying that they can not access the optional instant death property of a force weapon, correct?

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

I think you and DeathReaper may be ignoring the actual text of the MSS with regards to control, as well as how control is defined in the BRB. The only place I've found in the BRB where it specifically talks about 'control' is on pg.8, left column (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player).

To quote:
"Sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent."

Now couple that with the Basic versus Advanced rule found on the preceding page (pg.7). The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

Edit: removed 'deliberately' as there is no way for me to know your actual motives

That is complete rubbish.

So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

Force does something.

It allows the user the ability to expend a Warp Charge point to invoke the ID rule with a successful psychic test.

But that is all it does is allow the psyker access to the psychic power.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

As for the underlined:

Yes the MSS gives some control to the opponent, but that is only which CCW to use.

This is covered in the MSS rules.

Not quite. There are two different levels of control at work here:

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a leadership test on 3d6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

The first use of 'control' is in reference to the owner of the model with the Mindshackle Scarabs, the controller of the midshackle scarabs. I agree with you that this bit is about clarifying that it is the Necron player that decides which weapons will be used in the combat (benefiting from any and all abilities/penalties that weapon has). The second reference to 'control' is not about deciding which weapon to use, but rather who actually controls (per BRB pg.8) the model.

What this means is that for the duration of the fight sub-phase, a model affected by MSS is under control (per BRB pg.8) of the Necron player. That control does not return until after all blows are struck. During the fight sub-phase the Necron player gets to choose which weapons the affected model use. It may seem a bit redundant, but I don't see how you can equate the two uses of 'control'.

-Yad

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force does something.

It allows the user the ability to expend a Warp Charge point to invoke the ID rule with a successful psychic test.

But that is all it does is allow the psyker access to the psychic power.

Indeed it does. With that in mind, can you indicate if a psyker who has not activated their weapon can be said to still be recieving 'all' of the benefits of his or her weapon? As after all you've already indicated that they would not benefit from the optional instant death property of it if it is not activated...

Yad - it specifically tells you that when you fail you strike out at your allies. That instantly limits the control you have over the player

YOu are claiming you have "full" control over the player, when that is patently false.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yad - it specifically tells you that when you fail you strike out at your allies. That instantly limits the control you have over the player

Citing fluff?

No, citing the context throughout the rule entire

Not once does it claim, prior to the out of context "return" section, that you have full control over the model. It explicitly states exactly what level of control you have over the model, that of making it hit the unit it is a member of, with you choosing which weapon to use if any

At no point does it state you control the model full stop. Not one single place does it do so, and claims otherwise are so obvfiously false I assume it is deliberate

Finally - nowhere are you given a choice to activate an ability. You are told you benfit from them - which you do. The presence of the "Force" rule is what you benefit from, you do NOT get to choose to activate something which is dictated as something the owning player decides upon, especially when it is a psychic power that you are told the owning player gets to choose to spend a warp charge on.

 Neorealist wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force does something.

It allows the user the ability to expend a Warp Charge point to invoke the ID rule with a successful psychic test.

But that is all it does is allow the psyker access to the psychic power.

Indeed it does. With that in mind, can you indicate if a psyker who has not activated their weapon can be said to still be recieving 'all' of the benefits of his or her weapon? As after all you've already indicated that they would not benefit from the optional instant death property of it if it is not activated...

You are receiving the benefits of the Force USR. It still allows the psyker a choice of spending a force point to use the ID ability.

That is the benefit, as you would not be able to spend a force point to use the ID ability if the psyker were not attacking with a weapon with the Force USR..

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad - it specifically tells you that when you fail you strike out at your allies. That instantly limits the control you have over the player

DeathReaper wrote: Citing fluff?

No, citing the context throughout the rule entire

Not once does it claim, prior to the out of context "return" section, that you have full control over the model. It explicitly states exactly what level of control you have over the model, that of making it hit the unit it is a member of, with you choosing which weapon to use if any

At no point does it state you control the model full stop. Not one single place does it do so, and claims otherwise are so obvfiously false I assume it is deliberate

Finally - nowhere are you given a choice to activate an ability. You are told you benfit from them - which you do. The presence of the "Force" rule is what you benefit from, you do NOT get to choose to activate something which is dictated as something the owning player decides upon, especially when it is a psychic power that you are told the owning player gets to choose to spend a warp charge on.

One person's fluff is another's 'context'. What you cherry-picked from the MSS rule is fluff. 'strikes out at his allies' really means this, "Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)" That is the actual rule. See the difference here between fluff and an actual rule?

You're also failing to reconcile how MSS returns control of the model back to the owning player with pg.8 of the BRB.

-Yad

And once again: Does the Necron player have access to all of the properties of a force weapon if it is unactivated?

MSS returns control of the model back to the owning player by not forcing him to inflict D3 hits on his own unit in subsequent assault phases.

 Neorealist wrote:
And once again: Does the Necron player have access to all of the properties of a force weapon if it is unactivated?

Yes, as the activation is not controlled by the MSS player. The only property of the force weapon they ave access to is giving the psyker a choice.

I'm sorry, did you not already say that they can not access the optional instant-death property?

How do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

I think you and DeathReaper may be ignoring the actual text of the MSS with regards to control, as well as how control is defined in the BRB. The only place I've found in the BRB where it specifically talks about 'control' is on pg.8, left column (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player).

To quote:
"Sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent."

Now couple that with the Basic versus Advanced rule found on the preceding page (pg.7). The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

Edit: removed 'deliberately' as there is no way for me to know your actual motives

That is complete rubbish.

So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

Your example is nonsensical. MSS is very explicity about what it does. Forcing the affected model to strike his own unit. Giving the Necron player the choice (if necessary) as to what weapon is used. It also explicitly allows any ability of the weapon to be used. MSS is focused purely on CC, specifically the fight sub-phase. In other words, that's quite the Straw Man you've built there

-Yad

 Neorealist wrote:
I'm sorry, did you not already say that they can not access the optional instant-death property?

How do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

MSS does not allow full access to all the features of that weapon.

The MSS does not allow you to make that choice for the psyker. That is all.

 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS returns control of the model back to the owning player by not forcing him to inflict D3 hits on his own unit in subsequent assault phases.

You realize that you've just accepted that MSS allows the Necron player to take control of the affected model. And that means, "sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind." BRB pg.8 (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player)

Since you've already acknowledged that MSS allows access to the Force USR, you shouldn't have any problem with allowing the Necron player to decide to activate Force.

-Yad

Did anyone want to try the part of why the rule has 'he can immediately choose to activate it' has worded itself that creates the On/Off switch that prevents weapons with the rule from expending the Warp Charge point and taking the Psychic test on each unsaved Wound?

Pro-MSS still hasnt addressed that. And just so you know, your options are this:

No, it doesnt work that way cause the contents of the rule are always on! (which is incorrect as RAW shows)
It does have this built in On/Off switch to prevent the rule from triggering every unsaved wound. However, due to this switch, it lies just outside the boundaries for what MSS RAW has given the Necron player permission to do.

Litterally, it looks like this if you were to draw out what MSS entails:


____________MSS_________________=/=______outside MSS
Strength, initiative, weapon, special rules =/= choices within special rules

But not total control.

It only controls who they hit, how many times, and tells us that you get the choice of CCW they use.

That is it.

DeathReaper wrote:MSS does not allow full access to all the features of that weapon.

The MSS does not allow you to make that choice for the psyker. That is all.

Oh but it does, that is what "...These hits...benefit from any abilities and penalties..." means. Any really does mean 'any'.

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

I think you and DeathReaper may be ignoring the actual text of the MSS with regards to control, as well as how control is defined in the BRB. The only place I've found in the BRB where it specifically talks about 'control' is on pg.8, left column (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player).

To quote:
"Sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent."

Now couple that with the Basic versus Advanced rule found on the preceding page (pg.7). The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

Edit: removed 'deliberately' as there is no way for me to know your actual motives

That is complete rubbish.

So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

Your example is nonsensical. MSS is very explicity about what it does. Forcing the affected model to strike his own unit. Giving the Necron player the choice (if necessary) as to what weapon is used. It also explicitly allows any ability of the weapon to be used. MSS is focused purely on CC, specifically the fight sub-phase. In other words, that's quite the Straw Man you've built there

-Yad

¨
So you finally acknowledge the fact that the MSS rule specifically states what happens and which stuff the necron player has control over? Nice! Then please stop making things up about total control please. This is getting silly.

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:MSS does not allow full access to all the features of that weapon.

The MSS does not allow you to make that choice for the psyker. That is all.

Oh but it does, that is what "...These hits...benefit from any abilities and penalties..." means. Any really does meant 'any'.

And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Xzerios wrote:
Did anyone want to try the part of why the rule has 'he can immediately choose to activate it' has worded itself that creates the On/Off switch that prevents weapons with the rule from expending the Warp Charge point and taking the Psychic test on each unsaved Wound?

Pro-MSS still hasnt addressed that. And just so you know, your options are this:

No, it doesnt work that way cause the contents of the rule are always on! (which is incorrect as RAW shows)
It does have this built in On/Off switch to prevent the rule from triggering every unsaved wound. However, due to this switch, it lies just outside the boundaries for what MSS RAW has given the Necron player permission to do.

Litterally, it looks like this if you were to draw out what MSS entails:


____________MSS_________________=/=______outside MSS
Strength, initiative, weapon, special rules =/= choices within special rules

First off, the decision to activate Force is not made for each unsaved wound. If you successfully activate Force all of the unsaved wounds cause ID. Secondly, I don't agree with your dichotomy. During the normal course of play when a psyker scores a number of unsaved wounds, the psyker can choose to activate Force. If the psyker do so, he must spend one warp charge and take a psychic test. The decision as to whether or not to activate Force drives the need to spend a charge and take a psychic test.

The Necron player has control of the affected model. This means that should a rule require the Necron player to make a decision on behalf of the affected model, he may choose to do so. The only decision that is offered to the Necron player in this scenario is whether or not to activate Force.

-Yad

DeathReaper wrote:
And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Yes it is. (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.)

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Yes it is. (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.)

So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID. Because after all, as you assert, expending a Warp charge point is, (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.) it is an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Also what the the weapons LD for the Psychic test?

You can see how you are incorrect yes?

DeathReaper wrote:So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID. Because after all, as you assert, expending a Warp charge point is, (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.) it is an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Also what the the weapons LD for the Psychic test?

You can see how you are incorrect yes?

Actually in the hands of a non-psychic the weapon is unable to inflict ID because the force USR also accounts for that: "...if the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect."

 DeathReaper wrote:
So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID?

Rather unrelated, but this comes up occasionally - which non-psyker has a force weapon?
That sounds to me like saying Doom of Malant'ai is not a Zoey, so warp field doesn't work.

That still does not negate the fact that the weapon does not have the ability to expend a warp charge or take a Psychic test on its own.

These are things the Psyker must do.

as noted in the Force rule:

"he [the psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

See the psyker can expend a Warp Charge point etc...

 kirsanth wrote:
Rather unrelated, but this comes up occasionally - which non-psyker has a force weapon?
That sounds to me like saying Doom of Malant'ai is not a Zoey, so warp field doesn't work.

Certain grey knight inquisitor loadouts (ordo malleus i believe?) can include a nemesis daemon hammer without the bearer having to actually be psychic. (though they can be if you pay for that as well).

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID?

Rather unrelated, but this comes up occasionally - which non-psyker has a force weapon?
That sounds to me like saying Doom of Malant'ai is not a Zoey, so warp field doesn't work.

An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor that exchanges his Chainsword with a nemesis Daemon hammer but does not take the Psyker upgrade out of the Grey Knight book.

Figured there was a reason it came up, thanks!

Yad wrote:The Necron player has control of the affected model. This means that should a rule require the Necron player to make a decision on behalf of the affected model, he may choose to do so. The only decision that is offered to the Necron player in this scenario is whether or not to activate Force.

You may note that this choice that the Necron player has is limited to weapons and Special rules that they have. Again, the choice with in Force is outside that wording.

 Stoff3 wrote:
So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

What he meant is that your example is irrelevant.

Boon of Mutation, even though it can be cast while you are in assault and at a target in assault, is actually done so in the owning player's Shooting Phase. MSS is only used in the Fight Sub-phase. MSS cannot make you use Boon any more than it could make you fire a gun in the assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:"he [the psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

See the psyker can expend a Warp Charge point etc...

Yes i agree, the psyker must do those things in order for the model to benefit from the Force USR on the weapon.

So then, how does the Necron player benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon? (hint: read the sentence previous to this one.)

Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:"he [the psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

See the psyker can expend a Warp Charge point etc...

Yes i agree, the psyker must do those things in order for the model to benefit from the Force USR on the weapon.

So then, how does the Necron player benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon? (hint: read the sentence previous to this one.)

They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

DeathReaper wrote:They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

Very good! And what must that choice be, in order for the Necron player to benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon?

 jy2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

What he meant is that your example is irrelevant.

Boon of Mutation, even though it can be cast while you are in assault and at a target in assault, is actually done so in the owning player's Shooting Phase. MSS is only used in the Fight Sub-phase. MSS cannot make you use Boon any more than it could make you fire a gun in the assault phase.

Exactly, because the actual rules states that such a thing isn't possible. The same about the necron player activating ID special rule on a force weapon. It is only possible by the owner. And as long as there isn't anything in the MSS rules that specifically states total control of the model that isn't possible.

The arguments here shifts from forcing the psyker to make the activation to the necron player being able to control the psyker and making the decision, and nowhere is any of this to be found in the actual MSS rules! It is all based on assumptions and not many you play against is gonna accept that. You'll just have to hope for GW making changes again to the MSS text so you get or will not get your desired autowin vs Force Weapon users in challenges.

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

Very good! And what must that choice be, in order for the Necron player to benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon?

They have already benefited, by allowing the psyker a choice.

They are not allowed to spend a warp charge for the psyker, as the psyker spends the charge and not the weapon.

DeathReaper wrote:They are not allowed to spend a warp charge for the psyker, as the psyker spends the charge and not the weapon

Err, no; so close and yet so far. Im not saying that the psyker is not the one making the choice, just that he has no real choice in this instance as he has to select to activate the weapon.

If he 'does' have a real choice as you say how do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They are not allowed to spend a warp charge for the psyker, as the psyker spends the charge and not the weapon

Err, no; so close and yet so far. Im not saying that the psyker is not the one making the choice, just that he has no real choice in this instance as he has to select to activate the weapon.

Then please quote some rules saying the Psyker must spend his Warp charge on the Force USR.

 Neorealist wrote:
If he 'does' have a real choice as you say how do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

Because MSS only allows the use of weapon abilities. Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, as weapons do not have warp charges.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Yes it is. (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.)

So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID. Because after all, as you assert, expending a Warp charge point is, (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.) it is an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Also what the the weapons LD for the Psychic test?

You can see how you are incorrect yes?

Sorry, but no. Force weapons let you SPEND a Warp Charge. Not GIVE you a Warp Charge. Therefore a non psyker with a Force Weap could NOT spend a Warp Point because they don't have one to spend.
SPENDING the Warp Charge is a part of the FORCE special rule. The FORCE special rule is a rule/effect of the WEAPON. Mindshackle scarabs let you use EFFECTS or RULES of the WEAPON.
Stop bringing irrelevant scenarios into an argument. We're not tlaking about non-psykers here..

DeathReaper wrote:Because MSS only allows the use of weapon abilities. Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, as weapons do not have warp charges.

Circular argument is circular. Rather than ask/tell you the same thing i said the last couple of times you responded with exactly that, i'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

Very good! And what must that choice be, in order for the Necron player to benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon?

If the condition cannot be met, you cannot gain the option.
If you charge a unit of rough riders, you cannot use the hunting lance. They do S5 AP3 on the first charge, but they aren't charging.
If you fight a daemon hammer inquisitor (non-psyker) you can't ID.

So rules already exist where you can't use all options of all weapons. You can't exactly claim that's game breaking.



-Matt

Actually thats a very good point Hawaii, that's a very good illustration of an ability that can't be used against the wielder.

If a RR charges and one of them is subject to MSS, he has a hunting lance wich has an ability that can be used against the Necron player but not himself.

Unless a pro MSS can argue that the process of charging a Necron unit results in him charging himself.

Cheers

Andrew

And I can't stay away it seems. Been following this thread like a moth to a flame.

Some points I would like to make clear.

1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

2. Force weapons don't have Warp Charges it is true, and the psyker is the one that expends them, but under the Force rule to activate it you have to expend a Warp Charge. There isn't a choice. To use Force you HAVE to expend a charge. Restrictions of course apply. If there are no Warp Charges you can't use them, but since Force is a weapon ability you must look to the rules on how to use it to, you know, actually use it.

3. The hunting lance argument really means nothing. On the charge the hits are resolved at a specific Strength and AP. If you didn't charge then they are resolved regularly. MSS uses S5 AP3 if you charged, or the regular value if not.

I'll take that challenge.

Scenario: a Single Roughrider model charges a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle scarabs.

A review of the Roughrider stat block gives us this information:
"...When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with... ...unusual power weapons... ...that strike at strength and initiative 5..."

I think you all know what Mindshackle scarabs do by now.

1) So, does the roughrider count as having charged in the above scenario? Yes.
2) Therefore for that turn, it counts as being armed with an unusual power weapon which sets it's strength and initiative scores to 5. (and incidentally is AP-3, but that is not germane to our discussion).
3) Presumably the Roughrider's player fails the 3d6 Leadership check.
4) MSS forces the Roughrider model to hit itself d3 times using the model's own weapon profile; which for this turn is modified as per their special rule.
5)...
6) Profit.

in essence the (probably grinning) necron destroyer lord makes the roughrider do unconscionable things to himself, and then goes on to do unconscionable things with his warscythe 'and' it's all book legal (though thoroughly NSFW).

This is why you probably do not want to challenge (or get in close combat at all if you can help it) a model with this particular wargear.

i am in the camp that if a psyker with a force weapon is affected by MSS then he can use the FW to ID himself, because the weapon uses all its abilties and such of both the weapon and the weilder. force is a special rule weapon, and the requirements to use it are that the weilder expend a warp charge. therefore, if the poor guy has a charge then he uses it to activate his FW, then ID himself or whatever he hits.

pretty simple to me. im not sure why there is issue here? MSS works on everything else, inc daemon weapons, lightning claws, hammers, etc. all of them utilize the special rules of the weapon and user. if it requires the user to do "something" ie spend a warp point or whatever then so be it, as long as doing so is part and parcel of using a weapon special ability.

 DarthSpader wrote:
i am in the camp that if a psyker with a force weapon is affected by MSS then he can use the FW to ID himself, because the weapon uses all its abilties and such of both the weapon and the weilder. force is a special rule weapon, and the requirements to use it are that the weilder expend a warp charge. therefore, if the poor guy has a charge then he uses it to activate his FW, then ID himself or whatever he hits.

The underlined is false.
MSS rule says abilities of the weapon NOT the wielder.

If it allowed the use of the wielders special abilities then it would be clear cut. Sadly it doesn't.

Hypothetical question time:

Say a model which has a weapon that has the following rules-text on it is MSS-ed. What happens?

"...*This Weapon* may be used as a frost blade or, if *The Wielder* wields it with both hands, a power fist. *The Wielder* may allocate his attacks as he sees fit between these two modes;..."

Who decides what the weapon is for each of the attacks, in order to determine it's effects on combat?

 Lukus83 wrote:
And I can't stay away it seems. Been following this thread like a moth to a flame.

Some points I would like to make clear.

1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

2. Force weapons don't have Warp Charges it is true, and the psyker is the one that expends them, but under the Force rule to activate it you have to expend a Warp Charge. There isn't a choice. To use Force you HAVE to expend a charge. Restrictions of course apply. If there are no Warp Charges you can't use them, but since Force is a weapon ability you must look to the rules on how to use it to, you know, actually use it.

3. The hunting lance argument really means nothing. On the charge the hits are resolved at a specific Strength and AP. If you didn't charge then they are resolved regularly. MSS uses S5 AP3 if you charged, or the regular value if not.

1. A force weapon always uses the force special rule whether you expend a charge or not. So it always counts as a power weapon of whatever type it is modelled as. Force also gives the wielder an option of using a warp charge to inflict instant death on unsaved wounds. Mind shackle scarabs has no effect on this optional ability as it is a choice given to the model and has nothing to do with the weapon.

2. There absolutely is a choice, read the force USR.

3. You did not charge yourself or your unit, so if you are attacking yourself or your unit the hits are resolved at the lower strength.

 Lukus83 wrote:
1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

The benefit of Force is giving a psyker who wields it the ability to inflict instant death with the expenditure of a warp charge and a successful psychic test. All it does is give the psyker a choice.

As I've stated earlier, I could care less how GW FAQs it since of almost everyone I play with, no one has necrons or use generic Force Weapons.

With NFWs though, if the wielder has the Brotherhood of Psyker rule, and chooses not to activate, then the rest of the unit cannot activate either, so even if you could force the activation, it may not be in your best interest to.

Kevlar wrote:

 Lukus83 wrote:
And I can't stay away it seems. Been following this thread like a moth to a flame.

Some points I would like to make clear.

1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

2. Force weapons don't have Warp Charges it is true, and the psyker is the one that expends them, but under the Force rule to activate it you have to expend a Warp Charge. There isn't a choice. To use Force you HAVE to expend a charge. Restrictions of course apply. If there are no Warp Charges you can't use them, but since Force is a weapon ability you must look to the rules on how to use it to, you know, actually use it.

3. The hunting lance argument really means nothing. On the charge the hits are resolved at a specific Strength and AP. If you didn't charge then they are resolved regularly. MSS uses S5 AP3 if you charged, or the regular value if not.

1. A force weapon always uses the force special rule whether you expend a charge or not. So it always counts as a power weapon of whatever type it is modelled as. Force also gives the wielder an option of using a warp charge to inflict instant death on unsaved wounds. Mind shackle scarabs has no effect on this optional ability as it is a choice given to the model and has nothing to do with the weapon.

2. There absolutely is a choice, read the force USR.

3. You did not charge yourself or your unit, so if you are attacking yourself or your unit the hits are resolved at the lower strength.

1. So if the Force special rule is passive, what benefit do you gain when it is not activated? I mean, there has to be a passive effect if it's a passive ability. If there is none then I personally consider it an activated ability. Taking again the example for Hit and Run. A model may have it, but you haven't actually used the ability, or gained any benefit until you take an initiative test. And if this is the case I refer you to below

2. I still don't see the choice. If you don't activate the power then MSS hasn't gained the benefit from it thus a rule has been broken. I'm not arguing that it is the Psyker who passes the test. I'm arguing the fact that to use Force you have to follow the rules governing how to activate it, or you can't really claim the MSS player has used the power/special rule/ability at all.

I'm actually seeing 1 and 2 becoming two different parts of the same argument. Might as well throw them together in the future.

3. I don't have my IG Codex on me at the moment so my argument may change depending on the wording of the Hunting Lance. Will be sure to get back to you on this one.

Sorry, I've made a mistake on the hunting lance, the current codex lists it as a power weapon on the turn it charges, so it does have it's full effect if it's turned on its' wielder. I seem to remember that in an older codex it was listed as a power weapon against the unit charged.

So change in codex = change in rules. Sorry!

Cheers

Andrew

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.

1.) MSS successfully affects target model (Assumes affected model has a weapon with the Force USR)

2.) Necron player is now considered the 'controlling player' for the affected model

3.) Affected model scores a number of unsaved wounds

4.) Because Force is now an ability of the weapon it is eligible for MSS. Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it.

5.) Because of #2 the Necron player is allowed to decide to activate Force.

The short of it is that once affected, the Necron player is the Controlling Player for that model with all the privileges that come with it. But the actions the Necron player can take on behalf of that model are narrow in scope due to the MSS rules. He can initially only decide what weapon the affected model will use. However, should any ability of the chosen weapon also require a decision, the Necron player (who is the Controlling Player for that model) is afforded the right to make that decision.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.
-Yad

Except you premise of "for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model" is not true, so any conclusions drawn off of it are also not true.

MSS does not give the control of the model to the Necron player.

Unless you have a rules quote to the contrary that I missed.

 Neorealist wrote:
Hypothetical question time:

Say a model which has a weapon that has the following rules-text on it is MSS-ed. What happens?

"...*This Weapon* may be used as a frost blade or, if *The Wielder* wields it with both hands, a power fist. *The Wielder* may allocate his attacks as he sees fit between these two modes;..."

Who decides what the weapon is for each of the attacks, in order to determine it's effects on combat?

A model affected by MSS doesn't allocate any attacks. He inflicts a D3 hits. You'd have to ignore the 3rd sentence as you aren't making attacks and as such cannot allocate. You'd be stuck with either the frost blade or the power fist, but can't do both.

-Matt

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.

1.) MSS successfully affects target model (Assumes affected model has a weapon with the Force USR)

2.) Necron player is now considered the 'controlling player' for the affected model

3.) Affected model scores a number of unsaved wounds

4.) Because Force is now an ability of the weapon it is eligible for MSS. Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it.

5.) Because of #2 the Necron player is allowed to decide to activate Force.

The short of it is that once affected, the Necron player is the Controlling Player for that model with all the privileges that come with it. But the actions the Necron player can take on behalf of that model are narrow in scope due to the MSS rules. He can initially only decide what weapon the affected model will use. However, should any ability of the chosen weapon also require a decision, the Necron player (who is the Controlling Player for that model) is afforded the right to make that decision.

-Yad

1.) Yes, nothing wrong here good sir. :3
2.) Half way, the Necron player is in control in a very specific way. MSS outlines where you are in control.
3.) I got no issue with that, its bound to happen.
4.) Force is on the weapon, yup. Read your second sentence: Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it. This choice right here is outside the scope of what MSS has given permission to control. You have the Force USR, but not the choice to expend that Warp Charge point. Thats where Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player kicks back in and trumps MSS.
5.) Reread the rule -EXTREMELY- carefully with proper English. You are only given permission to Special rules on weapons. As MSS is written, its assuming that these Special rules that you will get to choose are Special rules without choices within them (as I have outlined and will do so again: Fleshbane, and Armorbane). There is no choice within those rules and should you the Necron player choose to use them, you are then given no choice within the rule to 'turn it on' as its worded in such a way that its simply on, period.

Im going to dissect MSS' terminology to get this point across as the Pro-MSS side -IS NOT- understanding.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph, fifth sentence exclusively for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice).

You have been given permission to all weapon choices and Special rules associated with those weapons as they are individual. The parenthesis governs -ONLY- choices to weapons as it is written, not the Special rules. Again, MSS as it is written this way assumes (and works in almost every Special rule) that this Special rule -DOES NOT- have a choice written within it; IE, its assuming that the rule is worded to insist that the Special rules confer the bonus that their rule dictates without any form of further decision making to take place (again, Fleshbane and Armorbane examples). Force as its written is most defiantly a property of the weapon. The rule is there and the no-go side is not disputing this. The problem that arises is that MSS' specific control ends when any further choices are made within those Special rules as is the case with Force. Force is written to prevent the model/weapon with this Special rule from expending a Warp Charge point on every Unsaved Wound and taking a Psychic test (which if it was written that way, it would work with MSS as no choice is made within that defined parameter). It was worded the way it is to expressly prevent such a thing from occuring. The Force USR is not a Psychic power and It CAN be done multiple times, for each Unsaved Wound for that matter; As long as you expend a Warp Charge point, and take another Psychic test.

Again, page eights Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player was trumped up to this point in the process, but again, this choice within the rule lies just outside the scope that MSS gives the Necron player control over and thus the second choice that lies in the rule now goes to the model's owner.

Xzerios wrote:
The Force USR is not a Psychic power and It CAN be done multiple times, for each Unsaved Wound for that matter; As long as you expend a Warp Charge point, and take another Psychic test.

That is not 100% correct.

"If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon..." P.37 Force USR.

You only need to expend the warp charge and take the psychic test once to manifest the power.

(Yes I said power, because that is what the Psychic Test rules state on P. 67).

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved..." P.67 Psychic Test rules.

Oh yes, Id also like to point out that models with Daemon weapons can actually attack D6 times if they are taken over by MSS. Simply apply the MSS Set Modifier value of D3 before the Daemon weapons Set Modifier value of D6. :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
The Force USR is not a Psychic power and It CAN be done multiple times, for each Unsaved Wound for that matter; As long as you expend a Warp Charge point, and take another Psychic test.

That is not 100% correct.

"If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon..." P.37 Force USR.

You only need to expend the warp charge and take the psychic test once to manifest the power.

(Yes I said power, because that is what the Psychic Test rules state on P. 67).

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved..." P.67 Psychic Test rules.

You forget the "One or more" part. Thats where its allowed to make a test and should it fail, it can try again on the next wound, you would have to note that one of those Wounds will not be an ID Wound

why not just rule that xenos or non sm psykers have to spend the warp charge to ID themselves, but SM psykers dont. because they are spess mehreens. and they always have rules that are better then everyone else.

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model.

And, as was pointed out previously, they are NOT THE OVERALL CONTROLLER of the model. They control ONLY how many times the model hits, and what weapons are used if there is a choice

You keep pretending MSS player gains full control. They dont. They gain *partial* control *only* over the specific actions listed in the MSS. That is why, when you bother to use context, the "return control" part is clear - it returns control to the player the specific elements of control that were taken, namely hitting the unit and choice over CCW

Nothing more. Nothing less. Stop making a false premise, and you may just see your error in argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model.

And, as was pointed out previously, they are NOT THE OVERALL CONTROLLER of the model. They control ONLY how many times the model hits, and what weapons are used if there is a choice

You keep pretending MSS player gains full control. They dont. They gain *partial* control *only* over the specific actions listed in the MSS. That is why, when you bother to use context, the "return control" part is clear - it returns control to the player the specific elements of control that were taken, namely hitting the unit and choice over CCW

Nothing more. Nothing less. Stop making a false premise, and you may just see your error in argument.

It's almost impossible for this to get through. I have tried to implement the things you wrote a substantial number of times here already, but in a strange way people are assuming things and making up their own rules just to get more cheese out of a already cheesy rule.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Remember this? Then check out how one of the biggest international tournaments handle the MSS-Force weapon situation (in 5th) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3x-iNml9H_TTWRJQXZFOWJqV2M/edit?pli=1 Its on pg 13.

Guess between the 2 of us, who will be disappointed in tournaments...

Ah yes, ETC - home of some incredibly dubious rules resolutions.

Every tournament I played in in the UK didnt allow MSS in 5th edition. I dont see much changing, personally

Xzerios wrote:
Oh yes, Id also like to point out that models with Daemon weapons can actually attack D6 times if they are taken over by MSS. Simply apply the MSS Set Modifier value of D3 before the Daemon weapons Set Modifier value of D6.

Where are you getting this? daemon Weapons add D6 Attacks in close combat. MSS is D3 hits. A model that only has 1 Attack can get a potential of 3 hits if affected by MSS. A model that has 256 attacks only gets D3 hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah yes, ETC - home of some incredibly dubious rules resolutions.

Slightly off-topic, but where is ETC getting this one?:

ETC 2012 Clarifications wrote:2.15 Runes of Witnessing in one Eldar army work
against the Runes of Warding in another army as
follows. When the Farseer attempts to use a psychic
power, roll 3D6. Consider the two lowest results for
the purposes of passing the test (ignoring the
highest result). Then, if the total of the 3D6 was 12
or more, the Farseer suffers a Perils of the Warp
attack (do not do this if the Farseer has already
suffered such an attack because of the lowest two
results being a double 1 or double 6).

Which completely contradicts the changes made to both Runes.

 DarthSpader wrote:
why not just rule that xenos or non sm psykers have to spend the warp charge to ID themselves, but SM psykers dont. because they are spess mehreens. and they always have rules that are better then everyone else.

Please don't assign bias to either side of this.

copper.talos wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Remember this? Then check out how one of the biggest international tournaments handle the MSS-Force weapon situation (in 5th) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3x-iNml9H_TTWRJQXZFOWJqV2M/edit?pli=1 Its on pg 13.

Guess between the 2 of us, who will be disappointed in tournaments...

Nice examble since they haven't made any bad calls at all about rule interpretations before?

Perhaps you have to accept that you actually have to play and don't get to autowin until GW releases a stronger text or clarification for the MSS rule. Even then you actually might get dissapointed. The MSS rules aren't strong enough for you to just jump to conclusions based on assumptions. If ETC does that, well lets just say that it isn't the first time.

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Remember this? Then check out how one of the biggest international tournaments handle the MSS-Force weapon situation (in 5th) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3x-iNml9H_TTWRJQXZFOWJqV2M/edit?pli=1 Its on pg 13.

Guess between the 2 of us, who will be disappointed in tournaments...

Nice examble since they haven't made any bad calls at all about rule interpretations before?

Perhaps you have to accept that you actually have to play and don't get to autowin until GW releases a stronger text or clarification for the MSS rule. Even then you actually might get dissapointed. The MSS rules aren't strong enough for you to just jump to conclusions based on assumptions. If ETC does that, well lets just say that it isn't the first time.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/466541.page
Golden Throne GT made the same call.
Nova doesn't have this in their FAQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.
-Yad

Except you premise of "for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model" is not true, so any conclusions drawn off of it are also not true.

MSS does not give the control of the model to the Necron player.

Unless you have a rules quote to the contrary that I missed.

As a matter of fact I do. I actually posted earlier about it, even providing a breakdown of what the rule entails. I'm paraphrasing here but the rule specifies that the affected model, if it's still alive, returns to the owning player's control after blows have been struck. See the part there about owning player's control. Now go to the BRB pg.8 and read about Controlling Player. See the part in there that says, sometimes a rule will require an action or decision. This is in reference to the Controlling Player being able to take that action and/or make that decision.

So you have a rule in MSS that specifically says you must return control of the affected model to the owning player. You have a section in the BRB that discusses what is meant by Controlling Player and Opposing Player. If you can't see that this means that for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the Controlling Player, well there's not much more I can say about that.

-Yad

@stoff3

Wasn't you who said that I would be disappointed in tournaments with this issue? Aren't you the first to bring up the "tournaments" in this discussion? And now you complain about tournament rulings? Really?

Just admit that you were wrong. At least on the tournaments part. It'll make you look less ego-driven.

Xzerios wrote:

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.

1.) MSS successfully affects target model (Assumes affected model has a weapon with the Force USR)

2.) Necron player is now considered the 'controlling player' for the affected model

3.) Affected model scores a number of unsaved wounds

4.) Because Force is now an ability of the weapon it is eligible for MSS. Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it.

5.) Because of #2 the Necron player is allowed to decide to activate Force.

The short of it is that once affected, the Necron player is the Controlling Player for that model with all the privileges that come with it. But the actions the Necron player can take on behalf of that model are narrow in scope due to the MSS rules. He can initially only decide what weapon the affected model will use. However, should any ability of the chosen weapon also require a decision, the Necron player (who is the Controlling Player for that model) is afforded the right to make that decision.

-Yad

1.) Yes, nothing wrong here good sir. :3
2.) Half way, the Necron player is in control in a very specific way. MSS outlines where you are in control.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough here. I'm establishing what the pre-conditions would be to be able to use the Force USR

Xzerios wrote:
3.) I got no issue with that, its bound to happen.
4.) Force is on the weapon, yup. Read your second sentence: Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it. This choice right here is outside the scope of what MSS has given permission to control. You have the Force USR, but not the choice to expend that Warp Charge point. Thats where Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player kicks back in and trumps MSS.

You've twisted you statement here a bit. You start by saying that you have a decision to be made regarding whether or not to activate Force. You finish by saying that you can't choose to spend a charge and take a test. These are two different things. The MSS player cannot directly choose to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test on behalf of the affected model. The MSS can choose to activate Force. The Force rule then requires the model to spend a charge and take a test.

Xzerios wrote:
5.) Reread the rule -EXTREMELY- carefully with proper English. You are only given permission to Special rules on weapons. As MSS is written, its assuming that these Special rules that you will get to choose are Special rules without choices within them (as I have outlined and will do so again: Fleshbane, and Armorbane). There is no choice within those rules and should you the Necron player choose to use them, you are then given no choice within the rule to 'turn it on' as its worded in such a way that its simply on, period.

Close. You (the Necron player) are considered the Controlling Player first and foremost. Second to that you are only provided the power to choose which weapon the affected model may wield. Should an ability of that weapon require a decision to be made, you as the Controlling Player may do so. Why? Because it's a matter of inheritance (if you're familiar with programming ) As the Controlling Player you are allowed to make decisions and take actions for the models you control.

Yes, MSS only allows you to choose the weapon to be used. It also allows you to use any ability that the weapon may have. That permission right there directly correlates to how the Controlling Player can make decisions and take actions for the model.

Xzerios wrote:


Again, page eights Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player was trumped up to this point in the process, but again, this choice within the rule lies just outside the scope that MSS gives the Necron player control over and thus the second choice that lies in the rule now goes to the model's owner.

I think you're wrong here. As the MSS rules explicitly say you must return control to the owning player it ties in directly to pg.8.

-Yad

copper.talos wrote:
@stoff3

Wasn't you who said that I would be disappointed in tournaments with this issue? Aren't you the first to bring up the "tournaments" in this discussion? And now you complain about tournament rulings? Really?

Just admit that you were wrong. At least on the tournaments part. It'll make you look less ego-driven.

I don't play GK any more so I can't really say I would be "ego-driven" in this area. You on the other hand appear to play necrons so watch out, you could shoot yourself in the foot with your statements.

I can surely admit I wouldn't believe they would do the same misstake interpreting the MSS rule as many here do, but it does the same tbh. The thing we need is a GW clarification faq-wise and sadly it wouldn't surprise me at all if they don't have it for the next faq since they often misses important areas. And to be honest it's almost 50-50 in the poll with a small favor of the no-sayers, then it's nothing else than clear that the rules are in need of clarification. And by that I believe them to be too weak to make assumptions in the question.

If they are intending MSS to work as you want it to work, I believe they are going to change the text by a not so small amount since it's really weak now if it is intended in that way. And if they are intending it to work as I for an example believes they are surely just going to add this question to the faq and answer it.

Yad wrote:

As a matter of fact I do. I actually posted earlier about it, even providing a breakdown of what the rule entails. I'm paraphrasing here but the rule specifies that the affected model, if it's still alive, returns to the owning player's control after blows have been struck. See the part there about owning player's control.

...which in context means you return control over those items you had control over. You never have full control. You keep on ignoring this point, hoping people will forget youre making gak up.

Yad wrote: Now go to the BRB pg.8 and read about Controlling Player. See the part in there that says, sometimes a rule will require an action or decision. This is in reference to the Controlling Player being able to take that action and/or make that decision.

Yep, and when it comes to choosing which CCW to use, which is the only element of decision making control MSS imparts, that is up to the MSS owner.

Yad wrote:So you have a rule in MSS that specifically says you must return control of the affected model to the owning player.

....meaning only the control that was taken. Which isnt full control. Stop. Ignoring. Rules. Your argument isnt on solid ground anyway, this just removes the ground entirely

Yad wrote:You have a section in the BRB that discusses what is meant by Controlling Player and Opposing Player. If you can't see that this means that for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the Controlling Player, well there's not much more I can say about that.

-Yad

If you cannot see that you are ignoring the MSS rule itself, which defines the level of control the MSS player has (making him attack his unit, what weapon to choose to use if a choice exists) in making your above statement, then there's really not much more that can be said about that.

 Stoff3 wrote:
I can surely admit I wouldn't believe they would do the same misstake interpreting the MSS rule as many here do, but it does the same tbh.

Well at least one good thing came out of this discussion. You got a heads-up and won't be disappointed in a tournament.

And as long as a FAQ doesn't come up, but all major tournaments are in favor of MSS, I am actually very OK with it.

Rigeld - i assume it was a hangover from pre-ELdar FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - i assume it was a hangover from pre-ELdar FAQ.

That was me asking about the ETC FAQ, not rigeld.

Ah sorry, long day today!

I can only assume it was a mistakenly left in ruling. Hell, one of the largest UK tourneys managed to equate LOS with spotting distance, and ruled that Hive Guard didnt need to roll for night fight in 5th edition...

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

As a matter of fact I do. I actually posted earlier about it, even providing a breakdown of what the rule entails. I'm paraphrasing here but the rule specifies that the affected model, if it's still alive, returns to the owning player's control after blows have been struck. See the part there about owning player's control.

...which in context means you return control over those items you had control over. You never have full control. You keep on ignoring this point, hoping people will forget youre making gak up.

Nope, there is no need to infer the meaning of the rule through your subjective context lens Control means control. And returning control of a model to an owning player ties in neatly with how Controlling and Opposing players are defined in the BRB. I also find it odd that you somehow figured out what I'm 'hoping' people will do? Have you some device that lets you do this over the Internet? Where is this fabulous technology and how can I get my hands on it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:So you have a rule in MSS that specifically says you must return control of the affected model to the owning player.

....meaning only the control that was taken. Which isnt full control. Stop. Ignoring. Rules. Your argument isnt on solid ground anyway, this just removes the ground entirely

I. Like. Using. Periods. Too. Just. Not. Like. This. As. It. Comes. Off. Reading. As. Overtly. Hostile. And. Authoritative.

Subjective constraint is subjective. There is no inherent contradiction in being the Controlling Player and having access to only a subset of actions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:You have a section in the BRB that discusses what is meant by Controlling Player and Opposing Player. If you can't see that this means that for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the Controlling Player, well there's not much more I can say about that.

-Yad

If you cannot see that you are ignoring the MSS rule itself, which defines the level of control the MSS player has (making him attack his unit, what weapon to choose to use if a choice exists) in making your above statement, then there's really not much more that can be said about that.

heh. When, for the entirety of this thread, I've done nothing else but speak to the particulars of the MSS and Force rule I would not necessarily say I've been ignoring the MSS rule. You obviously disagree with my take of the MSS rule, but I wouldn't say I'm ignoring it. If I were actually ignoring it I wouldn't speak of it at all.

-Yad

Ah, so you can just ignore context now, and consider that to be a good argument? It isnt subjective when the return of control can only referernce the control that was taken in the first place. Entirely objective parsing of the sentence that is a very basic comprehension of the English language tells you.

It is amusing you believe otherwise.

Carry on making gak up, your argument is still without merit. You are ignoring the context of a rule to remove "return control" from context and state "full" control was taken in the first place. Which is false, and has been demonstrated to be so.

I agree with Nosferatu on this one.

The complete and willful ignorance of the parameters of control that MSS directs is almost infuriating as it makes any debate impossible. How can you have a RAW discussion with someone that willfully ignores the very wording and stated conditions/intentions of a rule?

Page 8 gives you the general overview of controlling a players models. The rules for MSS specify a specific set of actions that are given to a controlling player. The pro-stance has devolved into arbitrarily making up a rule to continue making their argument. That is a lost argument and a lost cause.

I happen to agree with Yad. Does not the ability to benefit from 'any' ability on the weapon in the context of being in 'control' of what weapon is used allow one to decide 'how' the abilities on the weapon itself are used?

At that point, activating the Force USR and then following 'its' rules seems inevitable.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I agree with Nosferatu on this one.

The complete and willful ignorance of the parameters of control that MSS directs is almost infuriating as it makes any debate impossible. How can you have a RAW discussion with someone that willfully ignores the very wording and stated conditions/intentions of a rule?

Page 8 gives you the general overview of controlling a players models. The rules for MSS specify a specific set of actions that are given to a controlling player. The pro-stance has devolved into arbitrarily making up a rule to continue making their argument. That is a lost argument and a lost cause.

Seems like a whole lot of whining with very little substance.

Pg.8 establishes what a Controlling Player and an Opposing Player is. It specifies that a Controlling Player can encounter a rule that could require him to take an action or make a decision.

In the rules for MSS (I'm talking about actual rules not fluff) there are only two instances where it mentions control. The first is directly related to the Controlling Player of the MSS bearing model (Paraphrasing: the controller of the scarabs chooses the weapon). The second in in reference to who has control of the affected model. You need to understand what is meant by having control of a model. That's what pg.8 provides. The MSS rule however does not give you carte blanche. MSS only works during a limited time period (the fight sub-phase) and for a specific action (choosing the CC weapon the affectedm model will use). So though you are the Controlling Player, you are restricted in the actions you can take. The point of this is that the Force USR, which can be 'accessed' by MSS, and the choice to activate Force when the model is affected by MSS belongs to the MSS controller.

You obviously disagree with my assessment of the rules in question. Discounting my position in its entirety then, I would still suggest your take on the rules is incorrect. MSS gives access to any ability of the chosen weapon. As soon as the MSS player says that the Force USR will be used, the decision to activate it has been made. The rules for Force then necessitate the expenditure of a warp charge and a psychic test.

-Yad

Edit: removed some hyperbolic comments regarding Tyr's near descent into anger about a game with little toy soldiers

Yad wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I agree with Nosferatu on this one.

The complete and willful ignorance of the parameters of control that MSS directs is almost infuriating as it makes any debate impossible. How can you have a RAW discussion with someone that willfully ignores the very wording and stated conditions/intentions of a rule?

Page 8 gives you the general overview of controlling a players models. The rules for MSS specify a specific set of actions that are given to a controlling player. The pro-stance has devolved into arbitrarily making up a rule to continue making their argument. That is a lost argument and a lost cause.

Seems like a whole lot of whining with very little substance.

Pg.8 establishes what a Controlling Player and an Opposing Player is. It specifies that a Controlling Player can encounter a rule that could require him to take an action or make a decision.

In the rules for MSS (I'm talking about actual rules not fluff) there are only two instances where it mentions control. The first is directly related to the Controlling Player of the MSS bearing model (Paraphrasing: the controller of the scarabs chooses the weapon). The second in in reference to who has control of the affected model. You need to understand what is meant by having control of a model. That's what pg.8 provides. The MSS rule however does not give you carte blanche. MSS only works during a limited time period (the fight sub-phase) and for a specific action (choosing the CC weapon the affectedm model will use). So though you are the Controlling Player, you are restricted in the actions you can take. The point of this is that the Force USR, which can be 'accessed' by MSS, and the choice to activate Force when the model is affected by MSS belongs to the MSS controller.

You obviously disagree with my assessment of the rules in question. Discounting my position in its entirety then, I would still suggest your take on the rules is incorrect. MSS gives access to any ability of the chosen weapon. As soon as the MSS player says that the Force USR will be used, the decision to activate it has been made. The rules for Force then necessitate the expenditure of a warp charge and a psychic test.

-Yad

Edit: removed some hyperbolic comments regarding Tyr's near descent into anger about a game with little toy soldiers

Nice edit.

You remove hyperbolic comments by editing one in.

Just for the record, I am not infuriated about a game of toy soldiers, but by your willful ignorance by you in the course of debate. The topic could be about the wording of a nuclear arms ban against Iran or the proper way to bake cupcakes, and I would still be appalled by your debate methodology of willful ignorance and creation of rules to support your argument.

I think this is starting to get out of hand...what does that one mod keep posting? Dakka rule #1 Be Polite?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Yad wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I agree with Nosferatu on this one.

The complete and willful ignorance of the parameters of control that MSS directs is almost infuriating as it makes any debate impossible. How can you have a RAW discussion with someone that willfully ignores the very wording and stated conditions/intentions of a rule?

Page 8 gives you the general overview of controlling a players models. The rules for MSS specify a specific set of actions that are given to a controlling player. The pro-stance has devolved into arbitrarily making up a rule to continue making their argument. That is a lost argument and a lost cause.

Seems like a whole lot of whining with very little substance.

Pg.8 establishes what a Controlling Player and an Opposing Player is. It specifies that a Controlling Player can encounter a rule that could require him to take an action or make a decision.

In the rules for MSS (I'm talking about actual rules not fluff) there are only two instances where it mentions control. The first is directly related to the Controlling Player of the MSS bearing model (Paraphrasing: the controller of the scarabs chooses the weapon). The second in in reference to who has control of the affected model. You need to understand what is meant by having control of a model. That's what pg.8 provides. The MSS rule however does not give you carte blanche. MSS only works during a limited time period (the fight sub-phase) and for a specific action (choosing the CC weapon the affectedm model will use). So though you are the Controlling Player, you are restricted in the actions you can take. The point of this is that the Force USR, which can be 'accessed' by MSS, and the choice to activate Force when the model is affected by MSS belongs to the MSS controller.

You obviously disagree with my assessment of the rules in question. Discounting my position in its entirety then, I would still suggest your take on the rules is incorrect. MSS gives access to any ability of the chosen weapon. As soon as the MSS player says that the Force USR will be used, the decision to activate it has been made. The rules for Force then necessitate the expenditure of a warp charge and a psychic test.

-Yad

Edit: removed some hyperbolic comments regarding Tyr's near descent into anger about a game with little toy soldiers

Nice edit.

You remove hyperbolic comments by editing one in.

Socrates' Apology

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Just for the record, I am not infuriated about a game of toy soldiers, but by your willful ignorance by you in the course of debate. The topic could be about the wording of a nuclear arms ban against Iran or the proper way to bake cupcakes, and I would still be appalled by your debate methodology of willful ignorance and creation of rules to support your argument.

Thanks for the clarification. I suppose that you may also realize that the opposition may feel the same about your 'reasoning'? Which is why comments like yours really serve no useful purpose. I think that my, and like-minded folks, arguments have been well reasoned. Citing rules where and when appropriate, offering examples and scenarios to facilitate understanding of how the two rules in question interact. I certainly don't mind disagreement. Opposing viewpoints can often introduce points of view that I haven't yet considered. Charges of 'willful ignorance' and appalling debating seem a tad to outside the norm though.

-Yad

edit: for structure and clarity

Sadly there has been a fair lot of that, comments which call the credibility of the poster and/or their debating style into question rather than addressing the points they've raised.

I think at this point i'm going to try to summarize the (legitimate, as i see it) arguments for and against to see if there is anything new left to discuss.

Against:
1) The activation of (ie: 'choice' inherent in) the Force USR is a voluntary action and one which is the psykers' (ie: the owning players') choice.
2) The control granted by MSS does not extend to making optional choices for the weapon properties of effected models
3) The control granted by MSS does not extend to making optional choices for the Force weapon property specifically due to it being a Psychic power, but may extend to other optional choices.

For:
1) Control of the psyker model is granted (in an admittedly less than fully-defined fashion) to the controller of the MSS.
2) The controller of MSS is granted access to 'any' of the benefits and penalties of the weapon, including the optional ones. In order for the latter option to be relevent, the controller of the MSS must be able to make choices for them.
3) The effected model is the one attacking his or her victims. Therefore choices should be made in accordance with the most efficent way for the model to do so. (ie: likely in the best interests of the necron player and to the detriment of the owning player)

Did i miss anything?

Other than a bit of name calling, I think that's it.

Neo - I would argue that control is not "less than well defined" - the elements of control are rigidly defined by the MSS rule

Choosing to activate a force weapon is NOT within that delegated control.

Yad wrote:Perhaps I wasn't clear enough here. I'm establishing what the pre-conditions would be to be able to use the Force USR

No problem good sir, I follow you there. :3

Yad wrote:You've twisted you statement here a bit. You start by saying that you have a decision to be made regarding whether or not to activate Force. You finish by saying that you can't choose to spend a charge and take a test. These are two different things. The MSS player cannot directly choose to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test on behalf of the affected model. The MSS can choose to activate Force. The Force rule then requires the model to spend a charge and take a test.

Your point only comes out at the end here on this one. Im not going to point out the logical falicy with a Decision and Choice not being the same thing at the start here. The last bit here is what concerns me with the point your making. Your stating that Force as its written "forces" this test. Reread the rule. It states that the point is spent and test made if the Psyker chooses. If you can tell me that the rule reads that this charge must be used, and the ensuing test (that will) be taken are a mandatory (no choice) thing. I want your BRB cause thats not what mine says or in English. Again, the very first sentence of the rule states that a choice can be made. The rule once more:

Pg 27 BRB, first line of Force wrote:
if a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).

The underlined portion is what the Necron player is unable to do. Not just because they are not the psyker model, but once again, page eights rule comes back and states that if a rule calls for the model to make a choice, its the owning players model and they are the ones who make the choice. This choice lies outside what MSS has given you permission to dictate. Its outlined boundries that its confined to (and trumps page eight) is the Strength, Initiative (due in part to resolving swings in the Fight Sub-phase), Weapons, and lastly, Special rules on those weapons. To demonstrate this as it works;

You declare your using Force (as you have permission to do). We now move to the rule to resolve it and the models owner gets to make the decision and that can be yes, or no.

You do not get to decide this, the model's owner does. Why? Us, the Necron players have trumped page eights Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player up to this very point. The rule itself calls for a choice to spend that point, ect. Due to this choice, the models owner now gets to decide as once again, we the Necrons do not have permission to decide within the rule. We may only state we are going to use this rule. This rule calls for a choice within itself and that second choice is out of MSS' defined parameters that have allowed it to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player.

Yad wrote:Close. You (the Necron player) are considered the Controlling Player first and foremost. Second to that you are only provided the power to choose which weapon the affected model may wield. Should an ability of that weapon require a decision to be made, you as the Controlling Player may do so. Why? Because it's a matter of inheritance (if you're familiar with programming ) As the Controlling Player you are allowed to make decisions and take actions for the models you control.

Yes, MSS only allows you to choose the weapon to be used. It also allows you to use any ability that the weapon may have. That permission right there directly correlates to how the Controlling Player can make decisions and take actions for the model.

You (the Necron player) have control over the model with the outlined parameters that MSS has outlined. Full control is not listed within the rule for MSS and you can not assume so because it was given permissions to a few items. To do so is a leap of faith and breaks the rules. Programing has no sway over this discussion Yad, use the rules and argue your point with the BRB and proper English. I agree with the last statement here. Ive outlined just above why your not allowed to resolve Force with MSS. It simply does not allow you to make that decision to spend the point, ect. You can declare your using the rule for each unsaved wound, but the end result will be the owner saying "No, no, and no for that last attack".

Yad wrote:I think you're wrong here. As the MSS rules explicitly say you must return control to the owning player it ties in directly to pg.8.

Sure does, You still have been trumping this rule for the majority of the phase due to Codex vs BRB. MSS is very explicit that the model returns to the owner at the end otherwise its status each Fight Sub-phase would remain under the MSS control. This doesnt conflict with that rule in any way.

I also know the Pro-side is going to try to take my first point apart as the will feel that theres a flaw to it. There isnt. I have covered my point that way for proper English' sake. Choosing to use the rule does not arbitrarily force the rule to automatically resolve. Nor in the fashion they are describing. Lastly, to state at any point within this discussion that the Necron player is in full control of the model if MSS is resolved successfully is incorrect. It would have stated that within its own wording of the rule.
It has not, therefore, you may not.

Some where along the way this discussion has lost its way .

OK the point is simple Can the Necron player using MSS activate a force weapon ?

Can the player of the Model being controlled then choose not to activate the force weapon ?

Once you activate force the following must be done, the spending of a warp charge and the taking of a psychic test ,can you after choosing to activate force, choose not to use a warp charge or take a psychic Test ?

Answer the 3 questions using RAW and then not matter what your argument is you will all come to the same conclusion .

snakel wrote:
Some where along the way this discussion has lost its way .

OK the point is simple Can the Necron player using MSS activate a force weapon ?

Can the player of the Model being controlled then choose not to activate the force weapon ?

Once you activate force the following must be done, the spending of a warp charge and the taking of a psychic test ,can you after choosing to activate force, choose not to use a warp charge or take a psychic Test ?

Answer the 3 questions using RAW and then not matter what your argument is you will all come to the same conclusion .

No, the Necron player is given permission to use the rule.

No, that decission that the rule calls for lies outside the Necron players limits. MSS was specific with what the player could control. They have permission to use the rule, the rule then calls for permission from the model to spend the point. This second choice is not defined as being controalable by MSS, therefore, it may not control this decision.

You state "im using Force", you follow the rule and that second choice falls to the owning player to make. He/she then chooses wether or not to activate the weapon per the rule as it is written. Those choices the owning player has is "Yes, spend the point and take the test" or "No, do not spend the point and do not take the test".They must answer however for each Unsaved Wound as the rule calls for.

Forget the Necron player, can you in the course of a game choose to activate force then after making that choice change your mind and choose not to spend a warp charge or take a psychic test ? if yes the against side wins, if no then the pro side wins

Activating force or not activating force for me, is the choice ,spending a warp charge and taking the test is not a choice .

While i can see both sides arguments re this issue RAW here is the discussion so using RAW you must follow RAW, so the only question here is can the player using MSS activate a force weapon answer this using RAW and the discussion can end

Ok. RAW, are you the Psyker?

The answer to that question is the correct answer.

Xzerios wrote:
Ok. RAW, are you the Psyker?

The answer to that question is the correct answer.

GK dreads activate force weapons without being a psyker.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
GK dreads activate force weapons without being a psyker.

Psycic Pilot grants them Psyker Mastery Level 1, giving them one point per turn. As a Nemesis force weapon, you must still use the rules outlined by Force to resolve the power.
Next.

Just FYI I haven't ignored the thread. I just feel less strongly about the position I held and therefore don't feel comfortable defending it anymore.

I wouldn't chalk it up as a win/concession, but I'm not fully in the MSS camp anymore either.

Xzerios wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
GK dreads activate force weapons without being a psyker.

Psycic Pilot grants them Psyker Mastery Level 1, giving them one point per turn. As a Nemesis force weapon, you must still use the rules outlined by Force to resolve the power.
Next.

Only for the purposes of tests. Not generating warp charges.

rigeld2 wrote:
Just FYI I haven't ignored the thread. I just feel less strongly about the position I held and therefore don't feel comfortable defending it anymore.

I wouldn't chalk it up as a win/concession, but I'm not fully in the MSS camp anymore either.

Nothing wrong with that. Would you care to tell us why you feel less strongly about what you thought earlier?

 Stoff3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just FYI I haven't ignored the thread. I just feel less strongly about the position I held and therefore don't feel comfortable defending it anymore.

I wouldn't chalk it up as a win/concession, but I'm not fully in the MSS camp anymore either.

Nothing wrong with that. Would you care to tell us why you feel less strongly about what you thought earlier?

TBH nothing specific. I took the time to re-read every post in the thread and I'm just unsure.