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MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/18 00:28:44


Post by: sudojoe


I thought we had a long discussion on this in the past and somehow remembered that it was agreed back on 5th that you could not activate force weapons via MSS but I've been told that they can by several people. Confused yet once again from 6th changes.

Of the relevant quotes - BRB P37. force weapons - "he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a psychic test"

MSS - "There are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"




So the following question then exists: can you benefit from other abilities from the person swinging the weapon or just the weapon's abilities?

By RAW, it sounds like the MSS gave you abilities from the weapon like rerolls from lightning claws reroll to wound, or thunder hammer concussion, or rerolls from a relic blade

I don't see the MSS giving you abilities from the character swinging the weapon as it just says strength and does not mention his abilities.

Thoughts?



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/18 00:58:20


Post by: Fragile


Activating a Force Weapon (spending the warp charge) is a psychic ability, not an aspect of the weapon. Therefore, No, you cannot make someone ID themselves.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/18 01:12:07


Post by: grendel083


You need to expend a warp charge, and that isn't an ability granted from the weapon, but one granted from being a Psyker.
You can use the weapons abilities, but not those of the model carrying it.
So no instant death.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/18 23:44:39


Post by: jy2


Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.

If you want to play it that the model cannot force weapon himself, then he shouldn't get to use those abilities mentioned above as well.

I am of the opinion that the model can force weapon itself due to Mindshackles.

Also, techinically, force weapon is a benefit of the weapon itself even though it requires the wielder to take a psychic test and thusly, the "controller" of the MSS can choose for it to happen.





MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/18 23:58:58


Post by: Godless-Mimicry


 jy2 wrote:
Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.


This is incorrect though. Furious Charge etc are passive effects that are always effecting the model and can't be switched off, whereas a Force Weapon is an ability that the controlling player can choose to use or not; using MSS doesn't make you the controlling player, it just makes the dude hit himself.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:03:30


Post by: jy2


 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.


This is incorrect though. Furious Charge etc are passive effects that are always effecting the model and can't be switched off, whereas a Force Weapon is an ability that the controlling player can choose to use or not; using MSS doesn't make you the controlling player, it just makes the dude hit himself.

Actually, MSS lets the controller of the MSS target choose and thus he can choose for the target to activate the force weapon.

"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). "

- Necron codex, p. 81



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:09:14


Post by: Happyjew


However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:22:05


Post by: Dunwich


If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:24:09


Post by: yakface


Happyjew wrote:
However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.


But that's precisely what it does.

The 'force' special rule is part of the weapon's special rules. The Mindshackle rules say that you can use the abilities of any weapon the model has. So if I choose to use the force ability, I then follow the rules presented for 'force', which allows the model to activate his force weapon by passing a psychic test.

I frankly don't see how a realistic argument can be made that MSS can't be used to activate a force weapon.

It is a special rule (force) that the weapon has, and MSS player can choose to use any ability that the model's weapon has.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:28:54


Post by: IHateNids


Yes they can. They are able to do things like Daemon weapons which have a rule maing them roll D6 attacks, so it serves to reason that they can do it on Force Weapons.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:29:24


Post by: Great Deceiver


 yakface wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.


But that's precisely what it does.

The 'force' special rule is part of the weapon's special rules. The Mindshackle rules say that you can use the abilities of any weapon the model has. So if I choose to use the force ability, I then follow the rules presented for 'force', which allows the model to activate his force weapon by passing a psychic test.

I frankly don't see how a realistic argument can be made that MSS can't be used to activate a force weapon.

It is a special rule (force) that the weapon has, and MSS player can choose to use any ability that the model's weapon has.



QFT.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:29:47


Post by: yakface


 Dunwich wrote:
If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.


Just because how you resolve MSS against a Grey Knight unit might be unclear does not change the fact that 'force' is a weapon ability and therefore can be utilized by the MSS player if he wants. There's a half dozen (at least) other issues regarding MSS (its timing vs. challenges, Cleansing Flame, etc), but that doesn't mean you simply ignore that the rules do allow you to use any ability that a weapon has.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 00:32:09


Post by: jy2


 Dunwich wrote:
If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.

In the case of a single-wound model like a justicar, the point is moot because he is already dead. No need to activate force aspect.

As for, say paladins with 2-W each, then yes, you either activate it for all or you don't, depending on the initiative step when MSS occurs.

However, there is a simple work-around to this....just cast Hammerhand in the beginning. Expend your warp charge so when it comes to the MSS attack, there is no more warp charge to use on the force weapon activation.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 01:24:48


Post by: rednecroncryptek


You could look at it from a narrative point of view, saying that the MSS themselves activated the Psychic Ability IMO anyways


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 01:59:17


Post by: Happyjew


yak, just out of curiosity, who would supply the Warp Charge to activate the Force weapon?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 06:07:25


Post by: azazel the cat


yakface wrote:
Happyjew wrote:However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.


But that's precisely what it does.

The 'force' special rule is part of the weapon's special rules. The Mindshackle rules say that you can use the abilities of any weapon the model has. So if I choose to use the force ability, I then follow the rules presented for 'force', which allows the model to activate his force weapon by passing a psychic test.

I frankly don't see how a realistic argument can be made that MSS can't be used to activate a force weapon.

It is a special rule (force) that the weapon has, and MSS player can choose to use any ability that the model's weapon has.


I agree. Provided, of course, that the Psyker has enough warp charges left to still use the Force Weapon.

You can't steal a car that's out of gas, after all.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 06:29:36


Post by: DeathReaper


the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 08:38:23


Post by: sudojoe


These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). "


In reguards to the above, I read it as the MSS gets to chose which close combat weapons are used if I have 2 weapons. Like say a lightning claw in one hand and a chainsword in the other for an example

The abilities and penalties I read as only those belonging to the weapon and not model abilities as it was seperated by the comma.

While the force weapon entry has the rules for initiating the instant death rule, it also says that the psyker and not the force weapon takes the test so while you control the weapon, you just get the strength portion of the attack as the rule just says strength and does not mention any other abilities the model posesses.

If you were controlling the model itself, I'd imagine it'd be FAQ'ed to read like the puppet master ability from telekinesis tree where it actually says you control the model as if it was yours. I just don't see the model being controlled.

In terms of the narrative, I'd always imagined the MSS like taking control of your arm and making you swing wildly at yourself or others nearby but you are still you.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 08:41:17


Post by: Lobokai


 IHateNids wrote:
Yes they can. They are able to do things like Daemon weapons which have a rule maing them roll D6 attacks, so it serves to reason that they can do it on Force Weapons.


Not the same, the ability to activate comes from the unit, not the weapon. They aren't a faction wielding psykic weapons, they're psykers wielding weapons


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 08:42:25


Post by: Horst


 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.


Exactly. I've faced this scenario before.. the best course of action is to simply cast something before the close combat, so you don't have a warp charge available to activate your force weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 10:15:02


Post by: nosferatu1001


Yak - the MSS controller chooses to use the "Force" ability, but the player decides not to expend a warp charge.

Nothing happens.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 17:16:44


Post by: Spetulhu


No permission to make the psyker expend charges, no Force.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 17:28:26


Post by: NecronLord3


Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers, and Grey Knights, not being Psykers, are still able to activate their force weapons. Just as the bearer of MSS can do.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 17:33:01


Post by: thakabalpuphorsefishguy


If the model wielding the FW, has no warp charges left, then you cannot activate the force weapon i.e. GK squad charges and activates HH, mss hits a GK, the gk has no warp charges to expend and therefore cannot take the force test.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 17:41:15


Post by: DeathReaper


Not that the psyker can be forced to expend a warp charge and take the Psychic test.

MSS only uses the abilities of the weapon.

Expending a warp charge is not an ability from his close combat weapon.

So Force weapons can not be activated with MSS.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 17:52:44


Post by: thakabalpuphorsefishguy


 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.



I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NecronLord3 wrote:
Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers, and Grey Knights, not being Psykers, are still able to activate their force weapons. Just as the bearer of MSS can do.


GK have a collective warp charge. The justicar, or random squad model if justicar is dead or non existent, are a mastery lvl 1 psyker, and therefore have 1 warp charge. So if the charge was already spent to give them +1 str, for example, there is no warp charge left for the MSS to expend i.e. no ID shenanigans for the cheese lord to use.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 18:00:40


Post by: NecronLord3


thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NecronLord3 wrote:
Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers, and Grey Knights, not being Psykers, are still able to activate their force weapons. Just as the bearer of MSS can do.


GK have a collective warp charge. The justicar, or random squad model if justicar is dead or non existent, are a mastery lvl 1 psyker, and therefore have 1 warp charge. So if the charge was already spent to give them +1 str, for example, there is no warp charge left for the MSS to expend i.e. no ID shenanigans for the cheese lord to use.


Not true. Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers. Grey Knights are not subject to rules that effect Psykers, but are simply able to use psychic powers(throughly discussed in other threads.) Therefore not being subject to the rules starting on page 66, they do not genterate Warp Charge points, and can thus never spend them, ever.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 18:05:40


Post by: DeathReaper


thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.



I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.





MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 18:34:37


Post by: jy2


Some things are implicit.

If you have a special rule that causes the opponent to suffer a wound, then it is implicit that the opponent can take whatever save is allowable to him (and FNP if he has it).

If you make a shooting attack, then it is implicit that you have range and LOS to the target and that the target is not locked in combat.

If you use a psychic power, then it is implicit that you take a psychic test.

If you choose not to expend a warp charge, then it is implicit that you don't use the psychic power.

If MSS forces you to use a psychic power (i.e. force weapon), then it is implicit that you use whatever warp charge you have and take your psychic test in order to use that power.

You are right that MSS cannot make you expend warp charge, but what it can do is to make you use the force power. And in order to use the power, voluntary or not, you have to use your warp charge and take the psychic test.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 19:08:01


Post by: Neorealist


I'd like to throw my vote in for 'can' activate the force weapon. I believe the Mindshackle scarabs controlling player can choose to use any of the "...abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons..."

A quick look at the 6th edition 'Force Weapon' Entry shows that "...If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it..." which shows that the 'Force' USR is a ability of the weapon. For further verification of this please note that all force weapons contain the 'Force' USR as part of their weapon stat profile.

While the necron player is not explicitly granted permission to expend one of the psykers' warp charges nor take a psychic test to activate it; I contend that is not a seperate ability of the psyker to do so but a penalty inherent in the use of the 'Force' USR as it is written. Given the necron player explicitly may utilize any abilities and/or penalties of a given close combat weapon, i believe it is covered.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 19:20:53


Post by: yakface




I think you guys voting against it being able to be MSS are perhaps living in 5th edition? Because again, there is now a 'force' special rule, which is something that the WEAPON actually has which says that the psyker can activate (as in the quotes by Neorealist above).

Doing so certainly does expend a Warp Charge, but that it is part of the weapon's rule, which is precisely what MSS allows the controlling player to do.

Everyone keeps saying that MSS can't force a psyker to expend a warp charge, but nobody posts any salient reasons why.

So again:

1) 'Force' is a rule (ability) of the weapon.
2) The controlling MSS player can therefore choose to use that ability.
3) Using that ability means the model expends a warp charge and must take a psychic test.
4) Therefore, if the MSS controlling player chooses to utilize the weapon's 'force' ability then the model must expend a warp charge (if it has one) and take a psychic test to activate the weapon.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 19:28:51


Post by: DeathReaper


Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 19:37:26


Post by: yakface


 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.


You keep saying that, but it doesn't match what the actual rules for 'force' say.

The full text for 'force' are:

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..."


So again, the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. This is explicitly granted by the weapon's own special rule.

Any distinction you have made that activating the weapon via a psychic test is somehow separate from the weapon is purely imagination, because as I have pointed out numerous times, the weapon's own rules dictate how this process is done.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 22:48:08


Post by: DeathReaper


Right the Psyker can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge.

Not the opponent.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 23:00:22


Post by: Lukus83


Been following the thread quite intently as It is something that could come up in our next local tournament. After reading both sides arguments I am leaning on the "yes" side.

Force is now a special rule of a weapon, not an additional psychic power. The bearer of MSS gets to decide to activate or not. Heck it even mentions in the MSS entry it specifically mentions if there is a choice the MSS player can choose.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 23:03:09


Post by: Happyjew


Yes, Force is now a special property of the weapon, however, you still have 0 permission to use my models Warp Charge.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 23:12:44


Post by: Lukus83


Being able to use the warp charge isn't implicit when using the force weapon? Seems to me it's just part of the process. I say I want to activate it and to do so I must expend some warp charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't have my rulebook on me but surely the "force" entry explains how to use it right? I mean we are given permission to use this special rule, so it makes sense that to do so we follow the entry. My guess is that the entry then tells us that we refer to the psychic powers section on using warp charge. To the best of my knowledge we have not broken any permissions, we are simply following the rules on how to activate a weapon wih "force".


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 23:47:56


Post by: pizzaguardian


I would want to have your opinion about models who have force weapon, but is not a psyker(see ordo malleus inquisitor with terminator armour).

I know that the inquisitor is not a psyker and does not have a warp charge, but the argument for allowing the mss to activate the force weapon revolves around the weapon side and not the model.

As a side question: If you allowed mss to activate force rule who would roll for the activation ?

As another side question: For a unit with the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers , if the justicar is not the target of the mss can he activate the weapon? Since all the tests actually go through the justicar i wonder how this should be resolved.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/19 23:49:35


Post by: sudojoe


I'm not convinced by the "abilities" argument. While it says properties of weapons, the weapon has to have a permission from the player controlling the model to fulfill half the requirement to work.

Yes, the force weapon rules exsit as a special rule now but it still requires the psyker's participation to function. You again only control the weapon as far as I can tell. You gain the special rules for the weapon in that you can try to force but you lack the control of the model portion of the rule to actually accomplish it.

It's like you control the arm but not the mind of the model. If you were completely owning the model like it says from puppet master psy power, then I'd say you have full permission to do as you please.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 00:17:22


Post by: Lukus83


So the argument is that "Force" is both a weapon special rule AND a model special rule? While I can't recall anything that states you can't have a rule like that, I personally am not buying it since it is specifically stated as a weapons special rule.

I'm now sitting here trying to think of other weapon and model special rules...


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 00:25:49


Post by: TheCrazyCryptek


Aside from the good arguments going both ways here, me and my opponents just made a house rule that when I get them with MSS with a Force Weapon, that I can activate the Force Weapon only on a 5+ to represent the difficulty in stabbing oneself, then using your mind to fry...your mind.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 00:59:38


Post by: yakface


DeathReaper wrote:Right the Psyker can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge.

Not the opponent.


Yes, because all rules for weapons are going to reference the model who has the weapon. Obviously when MSS takes control of a model and gets to use the weapon's abilities, then the player choosing whether to use or not use the weapon's ability gets to choose whether or not to use the ability instead of the player normally controlling the model...that's the whole point!

I mean, where would you draw the line then? So any weapon special rule which happens to involve the (normally) owning player making a choice is suddenly off-limits to a Mindshackle?

I mean, what if there was like a Daemon weapon that you could sacrifice 1 wound from the controlling model in order to boost the Strength of the weapon (or something like that), would you say a weapon ability like that was off limits simply because the normal rules text for the weapon says that the owning player is the one who decides whether to do this or not?

It just doesn't make any sense. This is a weapon ability, and the ability of the weapon is to allow the model to activate the weapon to make all its wounds instant death and this is done by expending a warp charge and passing a Psychic test. That is the 'cost' of activating the weapon. The MSS player gets to choose which abilities to use for the weapon, so if he wants to activate it then he can and the normal 'cost' for doing so would be done as normal.


pizzaguardian wrote:I would want to have your opinion about models who have force weapon, but is not a psyker(see ordo malleus inquisitor with terminator armour).

I know that the inquisitor is not a psyker and does not have a warp charge, but the argument for allowing the mss to activate the force weapon revolves around the weapon side and not the model.


If the model doesn't have a warp charge to use then the weapon cannot be activated. All I'm saying is that the MSS player gets to choose which weapon abilities to use, and if he chooses to activate the weapon then all the normal steps would be taken. So if there's no warp charge to use, then the weapon would not get activated.

As a side question: If you allowed mss to activate force rule who would roll for the activation?


The same person who would be rolling to hit, to wound, etc, with the MSS model...the rules don't really specify and I don't think it much matters which player does.

As another side question: For a unit with the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers , if the justicar is not the target of the mss can he activate the weapon? Since all the tests actually go through the justicar i wonder how this should be resolved.


This is a tough question and one that does need to be FAQ'd by GW. However, just because this is a tough question doesn't mean that MSS shouldn't be able to utilize all of a force weapon's abilities.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 04:04:19


Post by: Lobokai


 yakface wrote:

This is a tough question and one that does need to be FAQ'd by GW. However, just because this is a tough question doesn't mean that MSS shouldn't be able to utilize all of a force weapon's abilities.


Use all the weapon's abilities... go ahead. But you can't use my model's abilities too. If somehow the force weapon was given to a non psyker, you couldn't use the ID, its the psyker's ability to spend a warp charge that makes the ID happen. That's not a weapon USR, its a weapon USR that works with the use of a model ability... which you don't have permission to use.

This only seems to matter for paladins or IC silly enough not to see this coming... but I can't see this leap being allowed by the rules, and I really hope the FAQ gets out soon (I'm tired of making rulings without solid rules to go on).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 04:28:25


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.


Because the 'Force' ability is activated by the MSS controlling player. When you use the Force ability as defined in the BRB (pg.37) you must expend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. Why? Because it's the only way to use the Force USR.

DeathReaper wrote:Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.


You're right in the spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the Weapon. But it is tightly coupled to the Force USR. You can't use the Force ability of the weapon without expending a charge and taking a test. In other words, per the Force rule itself you activate it by spending a charge and taking a test. If the MSS controlling player chooses to use the Force ability of the weapon (i.e., activate) you must spend a charge and test.

-Yad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sudojoe wrote:
I'm not convinced by the "abilities" argument. While it says properties of weapons, the weapon has to have a permission from the player controlling the model to fulfill half the requirement to work.

Yes, the force weapon rules exsit as a special rule now but it still requires the psyker's participation to function. You again only control the weapon as far as I can tell. You gain the special rules for the weapon in that you can try to force but you lack the control of the model portion of the rule to actually accomplish it.

It's like you control the arm but not the mind of the model. If you were completely owning the model like it says from puppet master psy power, then I'd say you have full permission to do as you please.


All Force requires is the expenditure of a Warp Charge and a successful Psychic Test. If the MSS controlling player elects to activate the Force ability/property of the weapon then it necessitates the expenditure of a charge and a subsequent test. Otherwise you're not following the rules for the Force USR.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lobukia wrote:
 yakface wrote:

This is a tough question and one that does need to be FAQ'd by GW. However, just because this is a tough question doesn't mean that MSS shouldn't be able to utilize all of a force weapon's abilities.


Use all the weapon's abilities... go ahead. But you can't use my model's abilities too. If somehow the force weapon was given to a non psyker, you couldn't use the ID, its the psyker's ability to spend a warp charge that makes the ID happen. That's not a weapon USR, its a weapon USR that works with the use of a model ability... which you don't have permission to use.

This only seems to matter for paladins or IC silly enough not to see this coming... but I can't see this leap being allowed by the rules, and I really hope the FAQ gets out soon (I'm tired of making rulings without solid rules to go on).


Then you can't allow the MSS to activate the Force ability of the weapon. Meaning that if a psyker with a Force Weapon is affected by MSS the Force ability of the weapon is off limits. The reason I say this is because the rule reads that if a psyker inflicts one or more wounds he can immediate choose to activate it (Force) by using a charge and taking a test. If you agree that MSS can activate (i.e. use) the Force ability of the weapon, then the only way it can be activated is by expending a charge and taking a test. This is part of what you guys are missing. You can't say that nothing happens because then you're not following the rules for Force. A charge must be spent and a test must be taken otherwise no activation of Force.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the Justicar question...assuming that you've accepted that you can activate the Force ability for a Force Weapon I would suggest you have the Justicar take the test. Simply because there are more specific rules governing the actual psychic test in that scenario.

All Force cares about is that to activate you must expend a charge and test. If there are additional rules affecting the psychic test that are driven by the affected unit then you should follow them to complete the Force activation.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 07:00:45


Post by: Xzerios


MSS gives us access to all the weapons Special Rules. If Force is one of them, then we have been given access to use that Special Rule, and all that entails it. If the rule says do 'this'. Then we have been given permission to do so.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 13:37:35


Post by: nosferatu1001


You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 14:15:23


Post by: Yad


nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something


Then you're not 'using' the Force USR. The only way to use it is to spend a charge and take a psychic test. This is the cost to activating the Force ability of a force weapon. You can't de-couple the two. If you ask me to show a rule that makes the psyker expend a charge and take a test, I would quote the activation line from the Force rule itself.

If you accept that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the affected model's force weapon, then you must follow the rules for Force. Can you show me a rule that allows you to avoid paying the activation cost of Force?

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 15:34:06


Post by: Lungpickle


WoW for a question answered early on theres alot of comments here.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 16:07:21


Post by: Fragile


Considering its almost 50/50 yes/no for this question. I don't think it has been "answered"


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 16:20:23


Post by: Xzerios


Again, given the permissive rule set of the game; If your given permission to all rules that apply to an item, by proxy, so too are you given permission to follow those rules.

In this instance though, if the owner of the weapon does not have a Warp Charge point to spend, then you would not be able to turn on that weapon as the rules for Force still require the point.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 16:25:46


Post by: nosferatu1001


Yad wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something


Then you're not 'using' the Force USR. The only way to use it is to spend a charge and take a psychic test. This is the cost to activating the Force ability of a force weapon. You can't de-couple the two. If you ask me to show a rule that makes the psyker expend a charge and take a test, I would quote the activation line from the Force rule itself.

If you accept that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the affected model's force weapon, then you must follow the rules for Force. Can you show me a rule that allows you to avoid paying the activation cost of Force?

-Yad


Yes - that the bearer gets to choose whether to spend warp points or not; nothing in the Force activation allows the MSS owner to force the bearer to make the choice to spend or not.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 16:29:20


Post by: Happyjew


Of course, if they are NFW, and you don't activate them, then you won't get a chance. some exceptions apply.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 16:45:49


Post by: Yad


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yad wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something


Then you're not 'using' the Force USR. The only way to use it is to spend a charge and take a psychic test. This is the cost to activating the Force ability of a force weapon. You can't de-couple the two. If you ask me to show a rule that makes the psyker expend a charge and take a test, I would quote the activation line from the Force rule itself.

If you accept that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the affected model's force weapon, then you must follow the rules for Force. Can you show me a rule that allows you to avoid paying the activation cost of Force?

-Yad


Yes - that the bearer gets to choose whether to spend warp points or not; nothing in the Force activation allows the MSS owner to force the bearer to make the choice to spend or not.


That's not actually addressing the concern though. The player isn't choosing to spend a charge and take a psychic test. The player is choosing to use the Force ability of the weapon. It's this choice which (if he choose to use the Force ability) then forces the player to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

MSS simply supplants the role the bearer has in choosing to use the Force ability of the force weapon with that of the MSS player.

-Yad



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 16:51:20


Post by: Xzerios


With the NFW, i would like to point out that the owning player may choose to cast Hammer Hand before the effects of MSS goes off. Preventing the models affected by MSS activating the Force rule of their weapons due in part to the unit only having one Warp Charge Point. Though, if its a character thats affected by the MSS and have more than one Warp Charge Point; They might activate their weapon in addition to whatever powers they cast before the start of the combat.

Id like to further point out that if your model failed it Psychic test and suffered a Perils of the Warp, you could then remove the model affected as a casualty, preventing him from hitting and potentially killing more models.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 23:16:57


Post by: Lukus83


By granting permission to use the force weapon you have to have access to the rules that govern how to it.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 23:22:01


Post by: Happyjew


Just out of curiosity, who inflicts the wounds, the model with the Force weapon, or the model with MSS?

If it's the MSS model, then you cannot utilise the Force rule, as you are not a psyker. If it's the psyker, her [the psyker] gets to choose whether or not to activate.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 23:24:26


Post by: Xzerios


Permissive rule set. We have been given access to your weapons Special Rules. If it states "do this", we have been given permission to do so. Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 23:26:28


Post by: Happyjew


Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.


Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 23:32:56


Post by: Xzerios


You are correct. Necrons have no Psykers much like the Tau.

Difference is we must check if the model has the charge. Not the model with MSS. The rules for Force dont state that the Necron model has to have a Warp Charge Point, the model with the Special Rule must have the point.

If your squad of Grey Knights didnt cast Hammer Hand at the start of the turn, you have a Warp Charge Point at the start of the combat and Im about to make you use it to activate your Force Weapons for the whole Squad per the rules for Nemessis Force Weapons and how Grey Knights work as Psykers.


Does it sound cheesy? Sure does. But by the Permissive rule set, I have permission to do so.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/20 23:34:28


Post by: Lukus83


It's the GK model using the force weapon. Can you perhaps explain how we are given permission then told we don't have access to parts of the rule. It seems an absurd argument to make since it breaks the rules for MSS. We are specifically told we can use a weapons special rules yet we are told we can't use them?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 00:08:47


Post by: NecronLord3


Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.


Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.
And Grey Knight Vehicles, have no warp charge either, and cast their psychic powers just fine, apparently.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 00:19:52


Post by: Happyjew


 NecronLord3 wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.


Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.
And Grey Knight Vehicles, have no warp charge either, and cast their psychic powers just fine, apparently.


There are two ways of reading the psychic pilot rule as written in C:GK.

Method 1: (treated as being a psyker (mastery level X) and Leadership X) for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods.
Method 2: treated as being a psyker (mastery level X) and (Leadership X for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods).

By the second reading they are always psykers; but Leadership X only for the given situations. By the first reading, they are only psykers for the listed reasons.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 01:12:31


Post by: Kevlar


I side with the no force activation position.

MSS uses all the special abilities of a weapon, like a power axe or power fist. Doesn't say anything about psykers activating psychic powers, introducing perils of the warp and other stuff is far outside the scope of what MSS permits you to do.

Permissive rule set indeed and nothing is permitting using a psyker's powers in the MSS rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 02:10:40


Post by: Xzerios


And yet we have access to the Force Special Rule on the weapon. Do we not?
What does the rules for Force Weapons tell us to do?

Again, we have been given permission to any Special Rules on weapons only. Your weapons Special Rule tells us to use a charge. The MSS model can make the model/unit use a charge as once again, it was given permission by the Special Rule of the weapon. To say otherwise is to break the rules for MSS.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 02:13:24


Post by: azazel the cat


Kevlar wrote:I side with the no force activation position.

MSS uses all the special abilities of a weapon, like a power axe or power fist. Doesn't say anything about psykers activating psychic powers, introducing perils of the warp and other stuff is far outside the scope of what MSS permits you to do.

Permissive rule set indeed and nothing is permitting using a psyker's powers in the MSS rule.

It's not a psychic power. Please, please, please stop referring to "Force" as a psychic power. It is a USR that is held by the weapon. The proof is that no psyker has access to this power without carrying a Force Weapon. Further proof is that it is listed in the weapon stats, and not the model stats.

Therefor, if it is a weapon ability, the MSS get to determine whether or not to use it. And that means, if there is a warp charge left to tap into, then the weapon can use the Force ability.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 03:27:51


Post by: yakface



There seems to be a mistaken idea floating around here about what Mindshackle Scarabs actually *do*. The victim (the model temporarily controlled by the MSS) is the one causing automatic hits on his own unit. Its just that these hits benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons, which the controller of the Mindshackle Scarabs gets to choose which.

Now this has changed a bit from 5th to 6th edition, but the 'force' special rule is now very, very clearly a special rule that the WEAPON has. So again, the 'Force' special rule listed below is entirely a special rule provided by the weapon not a special rule generated from the model itself.

So again, here is the full text for the 'FORCE' weapon special rule:

FORCE
If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). IF the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons.

Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or model that do not have a Wounds characteristic.



So given that the above is an ability of the weapon the Mindshackle controller can absolutely choose to utilize that ability. By choosing to utilize the ability, the psyker must expend a Warp Charge (if he has one) and take a psychic test in order to activate the ability that the Mindshackle player has chosen to utilize.





MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 03:35:20


Post by: Lobokai


 yakface wrote:

There seems to be a mistaken idea floating around here about what Mindshackle Scarabs actually *do*. The victim (the model temporarily controlled by the MSS) is the one causing automatic hits on his own unit. Its just that these hits benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons, which the controller of the Mindshackle Scarabs gets to choose which.

Now this has changed a bit from 5th to 6th edition, but the 'force' special rule is now very, very clearly a special rule that the WEAPON has. So again, the 'Force' special rule listed below is entirely a special rule provided by the weapon not a special rule generated from the model itself.

So again, here is the full text for the 'FORCE' weapon special rule:

FORCE
If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). IF the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force Weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons.

Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or model that do not have a Wounds characteristic.



So given that the above is an ability of the weapon the Mindshackle controller can absolutely choose to utilize that ability. By choosing to utilize the ability, the psyker must expend a Warp Charge (if he has one) and take a psychic test in order to activate the ability that the Mindshackle player has chosen to utilize.



Weapon doesn't have warp charge or leadership, that's model special rules. Weapon lets you use warp charges in combat, but it isn't the weapon that's causing the ID, its the model. Its not that I don't understand the rule or its changes in 6e, its that I really do disagree with your interpretation of where the model is separate from its weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 03:43:05


Post by: yakface


 Lobukia wrote:

Weapon doesn't have warp charge or leadership, that's model special rules. Weapon lets you use warp charges in combat, but it isn't the weapon that's causing the ID, its the model. Its not that I don't understand the rule or its changes in 6e, its that I really do disagree with your interpretation of where the model is separate from its weapon.


But again, if a weapon's ability say, did a wound to its bearer in return for making it AP1 or something like that, would we still be having this conversation?

We all agree that it is the MODEL that has the warp charge and must take the psychic test, but the point is that the Mindshackle player gets to choose which abilities of the weapon to use and the force ability is an ability of the weapon. However choosing to use that ability means that the bearer has to expend the warp charge and take a psychic test in order to make that ability function.

Because basically what you're saying is that if a weapon ability has any preconditions at all in order to make that ability function, then suddenly that ability is no longer something that can be accessed by Mindshackle Scarabs despite what the MSS rules actually say.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 03:45:13


Post by: Xzerios


By your logic then, your model with the weapon could never activate its Force Special Rule on the account that the weapon calls for model to expend a charge which is impossible because with your version of the Permissive Rule set, the weapon isnt given permission to do so.


So, which is it? Permission granted, or permission denied?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 03:46:41


Post by: rigeld2


Weapons don't have an inherent STR. So I guess since that's model based they're low/zero STR hits.

It's the weapon causing ID. In 5th it was iffy but I sided with the no-ID crowd. In 6th the ID is clearly a weapon ability and therefore can be used during MSS.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 13:14:05


Post by: Yad


Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, who inflicts the wounds, the model with the Force weapon, or the model with MSS?

If it's the MSS model, then you cannot utilise the Force rule, as you are not a psyker. If it's the psyker, her [the psyker] gets to choose whether or not to activate.


Per the MSS rule it is the affected model that is inflicting the wounds. It is the MSS model that is choosing what, if any, abilities of the weapon that the affected model must use.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.


Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.


This strikes me as a misrepresentation of how MSS actually works on the affected model. MSS forces the affected model to strike his own unit. In addition it gives the 'cron player permission to invoke any ability that the weapon may have on behalf of the affected model.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 15:02:36


Post by: Great Deceiver


The core issue is where in permission begins and ends.

- The Overlord uses MSS on a Librarian, etc.
- Librarian, etc. fails MSS and strikes himself 2 times in a challenge.
- Fails his 4+ Inv
- Since all unsaved wounds would then trigger the USR of the weapon, the Librarian has to take a psychic test to determine if he dies or not.

You either get the whole rule or you don't get it at all. Why would you only get half of a rule?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 16:23:23


Post by: Luide


 Great Deceiver wrote:
The core issue is where in permission begins and ends.

- The Overlord uses MSS on a Librarian, etc.
- Librarian, etc. fails MSS and strikes himself 2 times in a challenge.
- Fails his 4+ Inv
- Since all unsaved wounds would then trigger the USR of the weapon, the Librarian has to take a psychic test to determine if he dies or not.

You either get the whole rule or you don't get it at all. Why would you only get half of a rule?

It's question of how two, separate rules interact.
For example, lets say I have Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Nemesis Daemon Hammer that has not been upgraded to a Psyker.
Now, NDH still retains its "Force" USR and Inquisitor can "benefit from any bilities and penalties" NDH gives him. Problem is, because he cannot expend Warp Charges, he can't actually "activate" the Force weapon, even though he has the USR.

Argument for disallowing MSS to activate Force Weapon is basically same why Inquisitor can't activate his Force weapon: MSS does not allow Necron player to expend Warp Charges from the affected model and therefore, the Force Weapon can not be activated. Note that RAW this does mean that the hits still benefit from Force USR.
Personally, I'm not 100% sure which way it should be ruled, RAW or RAI.

(Now in 5e, it was clear cut thing: RAW you couldn't use MSS to activate Force Weapons, though some Necron players tried to argue otherwise to boost their army)
Edit: To be fair, as Rigeld pointed out, if one hadn't read Force Weapons rules in 5e diligently, one could have easily come to conclusion that MSS would have allowed Force Weapon activation in 5e and so me attributing malice to that interpretation was unfair.
Obviously if Necron player knew about the 'controversy' about it, then it's completely different thing.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 16:34:48


Post by: rigeld2


Luide wrote:
For example, lets say I have Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Nemesis Daemon Hammer that has not been upgraded to a Psyker.
Now, NDH still retains its "Force" USR and Inquisitor can "benefit from any bilities and penalties" NDH gives him. Problem is, because he cannot expend Warp Charges, he can't actually "activate" the Force weapon, even though he has the USR.

Correct. "Force" allows you to expend a Warp Charge and make the test, but since there's no charge to expend it can't be done.

Argument for disallowing MSS to activate Force Weapon is basically same: MSS does not allow Necron player to expend Warp Charges from the affected model and therefore, the Force Weapon can not be activated. Note that RAW this does mean that the hits still benefit from Force USR.

The Necron player isn't choosing to spend a Warp Charge therefore activating Force - he's choosing to activate Force which expends a Charge and forces the test.

(Now in 5e, it was clear cut thing: RAW you couldn't use MSS to activate Force Weapons, though some Necron players tried to argue otherwise to boost their army)

Please don't try to assign malice or greed where there's no basis for it. I try not to assign bias to either side of an argument unless it's obvious. Some people genuinely read the rules that way.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 17:05:27


Post by: Luide


Luide wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

Argument for disallowing MSS to activate Force Weapon is basically same: MSS does not allow Necron player to expend Warp Charges from the affected model and therefore, the Force Weapon can not be activated. Note that RAW this does mean that the hits still benefit from Force USR.

The Necron player isn't choosing to spend a Warp Charge therefore activating Force - he's choosing to activate Force which expends a Charge and forces the test.

Yeah, like I said, it's not what I'd call "clear cut" argument. I'm falling more to the "MSS allows activating Force Weapons" camp more and more.

rigeld2 wrote:

Please don't try to assign malice or greed where there's no basis for it. I try not to assign bias to either side of an argument unless it's obvious. Some people genuinely read the rules that way.

You're of course correct in this. I've edited my original message to reflect this.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/21 18:35:18


Post by: azazel the cat


This basically comes down to a paradigm- does the psycker 'push' a warp charge into the weapon, or does the weapon 'pull' a warp charge from the psyker.

I say the latter, and the reasoning has been simply laid out by Yakface, plain as day: the reason the warp charge is being used is because the USR, owned by the weapon, requires it. That means it is the weapon that is the originator of the need to use the warp charge, therefore the weapon is 'pulling' the warp charge from the psyker (where there is a charge to be pulled). Because the weapon is under the control of the MSS, then the Necron player makes this decision.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 12:30:43


Post by: thakabalpuphorsefishguy


 DeathReaper wrote:
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.



I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.





I know, that was my point XD But anyways, am I misunderstanding the brotherhood of psyker/sorcerers rule in the BRB? I thought the unit collectively was a ML 1 psyker


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 12:55:56


Post by: Thimn


If the Psyker is being under the control of the MSS, and is able to use any abilities of the weapon, which Force is, The Necron player can expend a warp charge if there is one available to be used.

The Psyker is not under the control of his normal owner, The Necron Player at that stage is the owner. Otherwise they wouldn't include "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 12:58:20


Post by: thakabalpuphorsefishguy


thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.



I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.





I know, that was my point XD But anyways, am I misunderstanding the brotherhood of psyker/sorcerers rule in the BRB? I thought the unit collectively was a ML 1 psyker[


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 13:15:40


Post by: Yad


thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37


He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.


I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.


Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.


The effect being that the 'cron player can choose to use any ability of the CC weapons carried by the affected model (paraphrasing a bit here but I think we can agree on that ) Yes?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.


I agree with you that the MSS rule does not allow the 'cron player to expend a warp charge that the affected model may have. But you're wrong if you think that that is what MSS is doing when it affects a psyker bearing a weapon with the Force USR. All MSS does (in this scenario) is allow the 'cron player to have the affected model use the Force ability of the weapon. Once you can accept that, you ought to be able to see that the only way the affected model can use the Force ability of the weapon is to expend a charge and take a psychic test.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.


It's not that the MSS is making the affected psyker expend a charge and take a psychic test, it's the Force ability of the weapon that is making the psyker expend a charge and take a psychic test. There is no 'choice' for the psyker to make. The Force USR requires the expenditure of a charge and a successful psychic test in order to activate it.

-Yad





MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 13:21:03


Post by: Thimn


Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 13:29:16


Post by: yakface


Thimn wrote:
Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?


Because they're in control of the model only in very, very specific ways (those listed). So the controlling Necron player can't make the controlled model do anything that isn't explicitly granted by the rules.

However, choosing which weapon abilities to use is one of those choices and choosing to use the 'Force' weapon special rule does mean the psyker has to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test in order to utilize this special rule at the Necron player's command.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 13:32:07


Post by: Yad


Thimn wrote:
Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?


Because all the Necron player is doing in this scenario is invoking the Force ability of the weapon. It's the Force rule that then requires the psyker to expend a charge and take a psychic test. It may seem like splitting hairs, but this is my answer to the folks who are claiming that the reason they are saying no in the poll is because they think MSS can't directly force the psyker to expend a charge.

-Yad

edit: ninja'd by Yakface


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 13:36:44


Post by: Thimn


Because they're in control of the model only in very, very specific ways (those listed). So the controlling Necron player can't make the controlled model do anything that isn't explicitly granted by the rules.

However, choosing which weapon abilities to use is one of those choices and choosing to use the 'Force' weapon special rule does mean the psyker has to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test in order to utilize this special rule at the Necron player's command.


Ahh I see what you mean.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 13:39:36


Post by: copper.talos


A player gets to choose to activate an ability or not. The loss of a warp charge and the leadership test are the obligatory actions after an ability is activated.

In the case of MSS the force ability of the weapon is activated like any other weapon ability. The player has to make the obligatory actions. He has no choice on this. But as some have said before me, just expend the warp charge on another ability.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 17:31:47


Post by: DeathReaper


thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Fluff is not rules.


Try not misquoting me please.

Thanks


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/22 21:18:15


Post by: JBrehaut


I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 08:28:00


Post by: azazel the cat


JBrehaut wrote:I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

Because many people are still in the 5th Ed. mindset, where the rules really could be interpreted either way, as "Force" was not a USR of the weapon.

However, in 6th Ed., ther eis absolutely no doubt. You've laid it out exactly right.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 09:47:36


Post by: Happyjew


 azazel the cat wrote:
JBrehaut wrote:I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

Because many people are still in the 5th Ed. mindset, where the rules really could be interpreted either way, as "Force" was not a USR of the weapon.

However, in 6th Ed., ther eis absolutely no doubt. You've laid it out exactly right.


Right you have permission to use Force. I wound a model with my Force Weapon. You decide to invoke the Force USR. You are then required to usea Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. You do not have any Warp Charges. You cannot activate the Force property. If GW changes this that's all well and good, seeing as how I don't have any Force Weapons, nor do I play against any Necrons.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 10:13:40


Post by: copper.talos


Read the Force rule again. It uses the warp charge of the psyker that bears the force weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 10:24:53


Post by: yakface


Happyjew wrote:

Right you have permission to use Force. I wound a model with my Force Weapon. You decide to invoke the Force USR. You are then required to usea Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. You do not have any Warp Charges. You cannot activate the Force property. If GW changes this that's all well and good, seeing as how I don't have any Force Weapons, nor do I play against any Necrons.


Players do not have warp charges, psyker models do. In order to activate the 'force' (weapon) ability, which the Necron player is forcing the psyker model to do, the psyker must expend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 14:01:31


Post by: Happyjew


Models don't roll the dice, the player does, therefore it is impossible for the psyker to take a psychic test, therefore, Force is unusable.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 14:44:47


Post by: yakface


Happyjew wrote:
Models don't roll the dice, the player does, therefore it is impossible for the psyker to take a psychic test, therefore, Force is unusable.


Agreed. In fact, a whole lot of the rules are written like that, so sadly we can't even play the game at all.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 16:09:34


Post by: Neorealist


Well that solves that i guess, back to playing monopoly then?

On a related note: For the folk who say you can't activate a Force weapon with MSS. Has anyone explained why spending a Warp Charge needs to be a voluntary act on the part of the player who owns the mind-controlled psyker? it's entirely possible to lose warp charges as a result of a (non-owner controlled) ability after all. (see the Demon Bile entry on page 103 for an example)


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 18:50:53


Post by: DeathReaper


 Neorealist wrote:
Well that solves that i guess, back to playing monopoly then?

On a related note: For the folk who say you can't activate a Force weapon with MSS. Has anyone explained why spending a Warp Charge needs to be a voluntary act on the part of the player who owns the mind-controlled psyker? it's entirely possible to lose warp charges as a result of a (non-owner controlled) ability after all. (see the Demon Bile entry on page 103 for an example)

Because Warp Charges are not an ability of the weapon, but an ability the Psyker himself has regardless if he has a force weapon or not.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 19:42:54


Post by: Xzerios


And yet the rule for Force requires the owner of the weapon to expend a charge and take a Psychic test to activate the Special Rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 20:00:23


Post by: Happyjew


Annnnd at this I'm dropping out. Neither side will change their mind until it gets FAQ'd.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 20:26:58


Post by: Neorealist


DeathReaper wrote:Because Warp Charges are not an ability of the weapon, but an ability the Psyker himself has regardless if he has a force weapon or not.
Right, everyone agrees that the Warp Charges are not an intrinsic property of the weapon itself i should think and i do not believe anyone is saying otherwise.

However, that doesn't answer my question: What inherent property prevents the player of the mind-controlled psyker from being 'forced' (hehe) to spend a warp charge if available and roll a leadership check on behalf of his or her model should one of the models weapons' properties require it? (which the activation of the 'Force' property of the weapon does from what i can tell)










MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 21:35:19


Post by: DeathReaper


The fact that MSS can only use the ability of the weapon, and can not use Warp charges because warp charges are not an ability from the force weapon.

We should probably wait for an FAQ, but if they keep with what it was force will not be able to be used, but they change rules with FAQ's all the time so I will not be surprised if they let the MSS use the Force weapon to instagib someone. not that many psykers have Warp Charges come time to swing, Prescience is too good of an ability to leave uncast.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 22:40:08


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
The fact that MSS can only use the ability of the weapon, and can not use Warp charges because warp charges are not an ability from the force weapon.

We should probably wait for an FAQ, but if they keep with what it was force will not be able to be used, but they change rules with FAQ's all the time so I will not be surprised if they let the MSS use the Force weapon to instagib someone. not that many psykers have Warp Charges come time to swing, Prescience is too good of an ability to leave uncast.

They activate Force.
Force expends a warp charge.
What is stopping the expenditure?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/23 22:54:23


Post by: DeathReaper


The Psyker has to expend the warp charge point.

The weapon has no Warp Charge points to use.

That is what is stopping the activation.

The Psyker can always choose not to expend a Warp Charge as Spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon it is an ability of the Psyker.

Basically :
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

Replace the He with the MSS model, and if that model has a Warp Charge point then that model can use the Force ability. But you can not drain a Warp Charge from the Psyker.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 00:16:52


Post by: Xzerios


 DeathReaper wrote:
The Psyker has to expend the warp charge point.

The weapon has no Warp Charge points to use.

That is what is stopping the activation.

The Psyker can always choose not to expend a Warp Charge as Spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon it is an ability of the Psyker.

Basically :
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

Replace the He with the MSS model, and if that model has a Warp Charge point then that model can use the Force ability. But you can not drain a Warp Charge from the Psyker.

Yup, sure does.
Nope, it sure doesnt.
If thats the logic your going to use, even you cant activate your own Force weapon.

To your edit, its not my model with the Force Special rule. Its yours. If your rule told you to do that, you would have to do that. In this instance, its the Necron player in your stead making your model do that, which requires a Warp Charge point, and a Psychic Test to activate. Again, its not our special rule, its yours. We have to abide by the rules outlined within that Special rule just as much as you have to.

Basically:
MSS gives us permission to your weapons rules.
Your weapons rules give you permission to use a Warp Charge point if you have it (which we have permission to use the Special rule that requires you to do this).
Its remained in the realm of permissive the whole time.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 00:51:26


Post by: DeathReaper


No, the weapon gives a Psyker with a Warp Charge permission to expend the Warp Charge.

"[The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..." P.37

If the model with the MSS does not have a warp charge point to spend, he can not activate the Force Ability of the weapon.

MSS says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Spending a Warp Charge point is not an ability of the weapon, it is the ability of the Psyker, since Weapons do not generate Warp Charges.
Xzerios wrote:
To your edit, its not my model with the Force Special rule. Its yours.

Actually My model does not have the force ability, but the weapon wielded by my model does.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 00:55:01


Post by: Xzerios


My model isnt the one with the Force Special rule. Its yours good sir. Your model.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 00:57:47


Post by: Happyjew


Xzerios wrote:
My model isnt the one with the Force Special rule. Its yours good sir. Your model.


Well since it his model that has the Force special rule, it would seem that you cannot use it, as you cannot use special rules of the model.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 01:10:19


Post by: Xzerios


And MSS has given me permission to do so. Only his weapons Special Rules though. I cant make him cast a Psyker spell that could be cast in Close Combat as I have not been given permission to do so. I only have permission to use the model affected by MSS to attack D3 times, with any and all Special rules that the weapon confers to that model. The Special rule for Force is now tied to your weapon unlike in 5th. Since the rule for Force on your models weapon calls for you (and in this case, I) to expend a Warp Charge point, and take a Psychic test to activate it; We do so. If for whatever reason we are unable to expend a point on the account of the unit/model not having a Warp Charge point, you or I would be unable to activate the weapon. Thats the only limiting factor to the rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 01:21:05


Post by: DeathReaper


Force is tied to the weapon, but Warp Charges are not, and the ability to cast a Psychic Power is also not tied to the force weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 01:22:43


Post by: Xzerios


So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 01:27:21


Post by: DeathReaper


Xzerios wrote:
So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Sure you can, as the Force ability says a Psyker can activate the weapon.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he [The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

Now in the case of the MSS, you can replace the word he [which means The Psyker wielding the weapon] with The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs.

So it would look like this (The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).)


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 01:39:13


Post by: Gravmyr


You know if we are reading everything with a word by word interpretation, psykers and their controllers do not control the warp charge itself. It says they are expended not that the model nor controller chooses to pay a warp charge then a power, force weapon or artefact is activated. Consider it a debit account that is charged automatically not cash that you have to hand over first. You choose to do these things then the warp charge is expended not the other way around. You choose a power to use then you expend the WC and make the testl. You choose to activate Force ability and expend the WC and make the test. Under powers it is spelled out exactly as such. Under Force it is implied in the same sentence as failing the test, implying that you can activate it but not have the WC to expend and fail.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 01:46:23


Post by: Xzerios


 DeathReaper wrote:
Xzerios wrote:So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Sure you can, as the Force ability says a Psyker can activate the weapon.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he [The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

Now in the case of the MSS, you can replace the word he [which means The Psyker wielding the weapon] with The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs.

So it would look like this (The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).)


You misread what MSS does. To save on time, Im just going to post the rule for you.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.


Again, its not my model that has the Force Special rule tied to its weapon. Its your model. Your model then must meet the prerequisites for its own Special rule, not mine. If your model has a warp charge point left, I can then force you to expend it per the rules for Force and then force you to take the Psychic test as the rules for Force require. Again, the model with MSS doesnt have to do this series of tests as the model doesnt even have the Force Special rule.

Your model.
Your Weapon.
Your Special rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 04:27:05


Post by: DeathReaper


Right "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Expending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, if it were then Inquisitors with nemesis force weapons, that were not psykers, could still activate them, which is not the case.

The hits benefit from the "Force" rule, as that is a ability of the weapon, but "expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." is not an ability of the weapon, it requires a Psyker to do it, so that is not an ability of the weapon.

Casting the Psychic power to to make the model lose all unsaved wounds is not an ability of the weapon. (Force requires a Psychic test, P.67 tells us psychic tests are used to activate Psychic powers, the effects of the force weapon give the Psyker an additional Psychic power he can cast. Nothing has changed).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:02:50


Post by: Xzerios


Your models weapon has the Special rule for Force. Read what it requires you to do to use it. Until you do, this discussion cannot continue good sir.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:06:06


Post by: DeathReaper


I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:11:55


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

He's given a choice to activate it. The MSS allows that choice to be forced on him.
The activation requires the warp charge. Since he's forced to activate it, he's forced to spend the charge.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:13:21


Post by: DeathReaper


You can not force a Psyker to cast a Psychic power, you only use the "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Casting a Psychic power is not an "abilitiy from his Melee weapon"


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:21:38


Post by: Xzerios


DeathReaper wrote:I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

No, the rule on the weapon calls for this. To not do that is breaking the rule for Force and the rule for MSS.


DeathReaper wrote:You can not force a Psyker to cast a Psychic power, you only use the "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Casting a Psychic power is not an "abilitiy from his Melee weapon"

I seem to be missing the part that states that Force is a 'Psychic Power'. Point that out to me please.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:31:25


Post by: DeathReaper


"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:46:20


Post by: Xzerios


Now that you have that portion here, let us read the rules for Force again. What does the rule give you (me in this case) permission to do?
Expend the point, then take the Psychic test.

Your own models Force weapon gives you permission to do that same action above. In the permissive rule set, we were just given permission to do that very action by your weapons own Special rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 05:50:43


Post by: DeathReaper


No it does not give you permission to cast the Psychic power, as the Weapon does not have the ability to do so.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 06:04:36


Post by: Xzerios


Well good sir, you just argued the point that your own model cant activate its own Force weapon. :3

Cynicism aside here, your Force weapon calls for the expenditure of a Warp Charge point, and a Psychic test. If you cant expend the point, you dont have to test. If you have a point, you meet the requirements for the rule.

Again, the Permissive Rule set gave us permission to force this on your unit/model through the wording of the rule. As I would like to point out now, this is the RAW forum, and RAW, the point will be spent if its there, and the test will happen if the point is there. Activating your Force weapon with the rules for Force weapons.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 06:09:16


Post by: DeathReaper


Yes a Psyker may activate the force weapon, because a Psyker is allowed to expend a warp charge and cast a Psychic power.

The Force weapon itself does not have the ability to cast the psychic power, the model wielding it does.

MSS does not let you use my models abilities, just any abilities of my models weapons. (Please note the difference between the two).

You have no permission to use a psychic power my model has.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 06:09:56


Post by: nosferatu1001


Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 06:19:51


Post by: Xzerios


Then we have two very different versions of how the Permissive Rule set works in this matter. Thats fine though, go back to RAW and tell me what the rules for Force tell us to do.
Keep in mind:
MSS gave us permission to your weapons rules.
How the rules for Force weapons are written.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 09:10:00


Post by: Lukus83


I said it earlier in the thread but at this stage I think it bears repeating:

By granting permission to use the force weapon you have to have access to the rules that govern how to use it.

Without this you technically couldn't utilize a lot of special rules. Hit and Run (from Nemesor Zahndrekh as an example) wouldn't work. You have the Hit and Run special rule but without having access to the rules that tell you how to use it you can't actually take an initiative test to break off from combat (taking an initiative test is only referenced under the Hit and Run rules, but are explained fully on page 7).

The Force special rule specifically states how it is activated under it's own heading (expending a Warp charge and taking a psychic test). As Force is indeed a weapon special rule once MSS grants you access to it you have to follow the rules governing how to activate it, otherwise I fail to see how Force has been allowed by the MSS controller.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 11:39:06


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

A bird is yellow.
That thing over there is yellow. Is it a bird? No, it's a school bus.

Activating Force is no longer a psychic power. It's just resolved similar to one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

I activate the Force special rule.
This requires a warp charge to be spent.

Find the permission allowing you choice.
By activating the Force power the warp charge is expended and the test is forced.
It's not an ability of the weapon, it's a requirement of the special rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 15:51:41


Post by: Yad


DeathReaper wrote:the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.


I think this is the reason why you're misunderstanding how the rules interact. Use of the Force USR doesn't allow the Psyker to choose to expend a charge, it forces them to. If the psyker decides to activate Force, per the Force USR, he [b]must[/i] expend a charge and take a psychic test. That is how the psyker 'activates' Force.

DeathReaper wrote:It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.


I agree that it's the psyker that needs to take the test, but you're missing the point of why the psyker needs to take the test (because Force was chosen to be activated by the Necron player)

-Yad




Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yak - the MSS controller chooses to use the "Force" ability, but the player decides not to expend a warp charge.

Nothing happens.


My opinion on this is that you're making the same mistake that DeathReaper is making. As soon as you allow for the MSS controller to use the Force ability you must follow the rules for that ability. The rules for Force explicitly state that the only way to activate it (i.e., use) is to expend a charge and take a psychic test. There is no allowance in either the Force rule or MSS rule to decouple the cost of activation. Unless I've missed a rule in force that allows you to 'use' the Force USR without paying the cost for activating it.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 15:54:38


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

A bird is yellow.
That thing over there is yellow. Is it a bird? No, it's a school bus.

Activating Force is no longer a psychic power. It's just resolved similar to one.

Except that the Force ability tells you to (See Page 67).

What is on Page 67?

"Manifesting Psychic Powers"

And it also tells us to take a Psychic test. what happens when we take a Psychic test?

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested" (67)

Therefore if the test is passed we have manifested a Psychic power, something that MSS can not do as manifesting Psychic powers are not an ability of a force weapon.




MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 15:56:26


Post by: Yad


Spetulhu wrote:
No permission to make the psyker expend charges, no Force.


There is no permission in the MSS rules that directly makes the psyker expend charges. The Force on the other hand explicitly requires the expenditure of a charge in order to activate (i.e., use) it. Therefore, should the MSS player choose, on behalf of the affected model, to use the Force ability of the weapon, the bearer of the weapon must satisfy the activation cost. There is nothing in the Force rule that allows the bearer to activate the Force ability without paying it's cost.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:01:27


Post by: DeathReaper


That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:01:52


Post by: Yad


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon


The rule that forces the psyker to expend the charge and take the test is the Force rule. The part has already been quoted in this thread so I'm not sure why your asking for it. The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean? It means that in order to activate the Force ability a warp charge must be expended and a psychic test passed. Can you show us where in the Force rules you are able to activate Force without paying its activation cost?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.


You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:08:23


Post by: DeathReaper


Yad wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.


You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Yad wrote:The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean?


All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:19:33


Post by: Yad


DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.


You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad


No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.


Agreed on both points, but you're still missing the fact (crucial in this topic) that the Force USR requires, once the decision to activate has been made, that the warp charge be expended and the psychic test taken. Can you find a rule that let's you choose to activate Force and not expend a charge and take a test?

DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean?


All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.


I think you're 100% wrong on this one. The psyker does not have any option whatsoever to avoid paying the activation cost of the Force USR once the decision has been made to activate it. I'd really like to know, per the Force USR itself, how this is possible.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:28:22


Post by: morgendonner


I think this is pretty cut and clear, I'm surprised the poll is a dead 50/50. If there's a warpcharge available, a force weapon grants its user the ability to activate it for instant deathing any models taking unsaved wounds. MSS lets you use all bonuses and abilities granted by a weapon.

I don't see how there's any difference between 'forcing your opponent to consume a warp charge' and 'forcing your opponent to use his poison re-roll'. It's a benefit of the weapon, the fact that the model only has x number of warp-charges per turn is inconsequential.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:37:02


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

No, the choice was made for him - Force has been activated.
Now the requirements must be bet. What are the requirements for Force?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:46:51


Post by: Happyjew


 morgendonner wrote:
I think this is pretty cut and clear, I'm surprised the poll is a dead 50/50. If there's a warpcharge available, a force weapon grants its user the ability to activate it for instant deathing any models taking unsaved wounds. MSS lets you use all bonuses and abilities granted by a weapon.

I don't see how there's any difference between 'forcing your opponent to consume a warp charge' and 'forcing your opponent to use his poison re-roll'. It's a benefit of the weapon, the fact that the model only has x number of warp-charges per turn is inconsequential.


I think it is pretty cut and clear that MSS cannot force a psyker to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test. Honestly though I'm not surprised that the poll is about 50/50. Just goes to show that GW needs new FAQs.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:55:04


Post by: DeathReaper


Yad wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.


You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad


No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.


Agreed on both points, but you're still missing the fact (crucial in this topic) that the Force USR requires, once the decision to activate has been made, that the warp charge be expended and the psychic test taken. Can you find a rule that let's you choose to activate Force and not expend a charge and take a test?

A decision that lies with the Psyker manifesting the Psychic power.

This is not an ability of the weapon, because if the wielder were not a psyker then they could not utilize the force rule.

So if the Psyker wants to he can expend a warp charge to manifest the power.

All the Force special rule does is give him access to that Psychic Power.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 16:58:47


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:

A decision that lies with the Psyker manifesting the Psychic power.

This is not an ability of the weapon, because if the wielder were not a psyker then they could not utilize the force rule.

So if the Psyker wants to he can expend a warp charge to manifest the power.

All the Force special rule does is give him access to that choice.

No, the Force special rule
BRB wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).

MSS Forces activation. It's activated by spending a warp charge, etc. Since MSS allows the activation of Force it forces the Warp Charge expenditure.
Trying to say the choice lies with the Psyker is saying that MSS cannot activate Force.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 17:00:25


Post by: DeathReaper


No MSS only uses the ability of the weapon.

Force is an ability of the weapon, but manifesting the psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon. This lies within the psyker himself. The weapon simply gives the psyker access to the psychic power.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 17:04:27


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
No MSS only uses the ability of the weapon.

Force is an ability of the weapon, but manifesting the psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon. This lies within the psyker himself. The weapon simply gives the psyker access to the psychic power.

In 5th that was true. In 6th that's not how the Force rule reads.
And it's also irrelevant.

Activating Force has the requirement of spending a warp charge and a test. MSS forces the activation of Force.
Where is the permission to choose to ignore the requirement?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 17:11:41


Post by: DeathReaper


We ignore it because manifesting a psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon, and MSS tells us to use the weapons abilities.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed. (They just gave a roundabout way of finding that information).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 17:55:28


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
We ignore it because manifesting a psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon, and MSS tells us to use the weapons abilities.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed. (They just gave a roundabout way of finding that information).

Again, yellow bird, school bus.

You're making an assumption that all psychic tests manifest powers.
You're told to make a Psychic test with a rules reference to how to do so.
You're also ignoring the fact that the Force special rule requires the test to be taken. You're inserting the choice in there where there is none.

I don't care if the weapon can't manifest a psychic power. I'm not trying to. I am forcing you to activate the Force special rule on your weapon. You must now meet all the requirements of that special rule.
What are those requirements?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 17:59:26


Post by: Happyjew


[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 18:01:52


Post by: rigeld2


Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

WRONG!

It's to spend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test!



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 18:05:23


Post by: Happyjew


rigeld2 wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

WRONG!

It's to spend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test!



Darn. Do at least get credit for trying?

I know I said I was done with this thread, but allow me to amend my previous post. I am done arguing in this thread. Neither side is going to budge and with the poll at 49.9999999999...and 50.000000...001, we can tell that the only way for this to be determined is for GW to get off their and release FAQs that actually address the myriad of issues (such as the power weapon confusion, scattered blasts, weapons that are not listed in the rulebook...)


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 19:51:00


Post by: Yad


Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]




Nope, there is no choice to spend a charge and take the test. The choice is whether or not to activate (i.e., use) the Force ability of the weapon. If you or the Necron player chooses to do so, you must spend a charge and take a psychic test.

No soup for you!!

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:05:42


Post by: Xzerios


Lets see if I can outline this more thoroughly for the anti-Force side. In my example, Im going to be using the Grey Knights Nemesis Force Weapons rules from page 54 of their Codex. It states that they if they have the Brotherhood of Psykers, they test with one roll to activate for the whole unit.
Pg 54 Grey Knights Codex wrote:
Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll sperately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the units' Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the units Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test.

Note here that the very first sentence references us to the BRB.
Pg 37 BRB wrote:
Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

Well, seems pretty clear thus far. Note once more that this is a USR. More specific than whats mentioned on page 67. The reason it sites you to that page is to cover what happens for the Psychic test that this USR calls for.

I would also like to point out that this is not a Psyker power, its a USR

Page 67 covers the who and the whats for that Psychic test. Lets post these up here just for clarifications sake. Im only going to post the bolded portion from Manifesting Psychic Powers section as its what we are looking for here to conclude the rules for Force.

Pg 67 BRB, bolded section to its end wrote:
Manifesting Psychic Powers
1. Expend Warp Charge
Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge.

2. Declare Target
If the pschic power requires a target, choose it now.

3. Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1 or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately.

4. Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens.

5. Resolve Psychic Power
Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll, it is now resolved.
Again note that the USR for Force did at no time call itself a Psychic power, yet here it has told us to go to this part of page 67 to resolve the USR for Force. Does this make it a Psychic power as folks from the anti-Force side claim? No, because if it was, it would have said so in its own rule.


So, since thats been outlined. MSS only gives us access to your model for D3 attacks at your models strength, and benefit from any special rules you have tied to its weapon. As the USR Force has outlined, its a property of the weapon, and it tells you to expend a charge, take a test, and depending on that test, you get to activate the effects of the USR, or you dont.


Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:11:10


Post by: Happyjew


Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.


Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:25:28


Post by: Xzerios


Because you are told to reference page 67 and one of the steps is Deny the Witch.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:25:51


Post by: Tye_Informer


Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.


Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?


Because you can't use "Deny the Witch" on it. They clarify it because someone probably thought it was a Psychic Power and then wanted to use DtW on it. You can't.

For the MSS / Force issue, I'm convinced that MSS can activate the Force USR on the weapon. MSS rules state that if there is a choice, the Necron player get's to choose. There's a choice, so Necron player chooses.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:26:34


Post by: rigeld2


Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.


Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because otherwise there'd be a 50 page thread debating it here?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:27:50


Post by: Happyjew


rigeld2 wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.


Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because otherwise there'd be a 50 page thread debating it here?


We're working on it. 5 pages down, 45 more to go.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/24 20:33:00


Post by: Yad


Happyjew wrote:
Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.


Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?


I think there are two ways you can look at the Force USR with regards to the question as to whether or not it's a psychic power

1.) No -- because the Force USR does not define itself as a psychic power
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

These are the two that I could think off the top of my head, you may have other reasons. Either way though the point is moot. Because Force (and all it's rules contained therein) are encapsulated and applied as an ability of a weapon. As such, the MSS rule has every right to 'use' that ability.

I'll offer a more technical explanation as to why GW clarified that DtW cannot be used...I think that's because you never declare the target of the power to be an enemy model/unit (assuming you think Force is a psychic power). The target of the 'power' wound be the unsaved wound(s). that's just my reasoning based off of the wording of Force (what happens when it succeeds) and the requirements in DtW that must be met in order to get a roll.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 02:37:58


Post by: Xzerios


2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 02:40:14


Post by: AndrewC


Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 02:47:42


Post by: Xzerios


Depending on how the rule is worded, yes. And as long as this fabled Special Rule is tied directly to the weapon.

Again though, that situation comes down to how the rule was to be written.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 03:08:00


Post by: AndrewC


Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 04:07:58


Post by: jy2


 AndrewC wrote:
Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew

Going just by logic alone (because there is no actual RAW for this hypothetical rule), then if the player wants his weapon to be S10 AP1, then he would have to sacrifice one member from his squad anyways. It is a condition and also a requirement in order to make the weapon S10.

Now if MSS controls this person and forces him to make it a S10 weapon, then he would be forced to sacrifice a member of his squad. There is no other way for him to satisfy the requirement of his special weapon. He is not doing it voluntarily. He is doing it because the weapon, which is controlled by the MSS, is requiring him to do so. The only out he has is if there is no one else in the squad and thus he cannot satisfy the weapon's requirement.




MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 08:20:30


Post by: nosferatu1001


Xzerios wrote:
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)


Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 08:21:45


Post by: NecronLord3


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Xzerios wrote:
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)


Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?


So now are you arguing that only Psykers are able to cast Psychic Powers?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 08:37:35


Post by: nosferatu1001


No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 09:28:19


Post by: Happyjew


 NecronLord3 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Xzerios wrote:
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)


Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?


So now are you arguing that only Psykers are able to cast Psychic Powers?


Well seeing as how psychic powers (generally) require a Warp Charge, and only Psykers generate warp Charges...


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 11:02:48


Post by: Kevlar


If for some reason the psyker has no warp charges can MSS activate the force power?

If not then "force" obviously isn't an attribute of the weapon. It is an attribute of the psyker.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 12:44:12


Post by: Yad


nosferatu1001 wrote:
Xzerios wrote:
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)


Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?


It doesn't matter whether or not you treat Force as a psychic power (even though the RAW never actually states that it is a psychic power ). You still haven't provided a reason as to why the MSS player can choose to use (activate) Force and the psyker can choose not to expend the charge and take the test. Can you provide a rule in the Force USR that allows the psyker to avoid paying the cost of Force when a decision has been made to activate it?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kevlar wrote:
If for some reason the psyker has no warp charges can MSS activate the force power?

If not then "force" obviously isn't an attribute of the weapon. It is an attribute of the psyker.



I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here as Force is now an actual ability of a weapon, eligible for MSS.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.


I think that this is a decent inference to make, and I would tend to agree with you. It's just not relevant to the overall mechanics of Force and MSS.

Choose to activate Force means you must spend a charge and take a psychic test. That is RAW. Can you demonstrate otherwise?

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 14:09:42


Post by: rigeld2


nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

No, it's not. It's a special rule. See what section it's in?

You're told to roll a Psychic Test. The page reference is to tell you how.
Nothing in the rules calls Force a psychic power.
Your statement means that literally anything requiring a Psychic test is a psychic power.
You sure you want to say that?

Also, it doesn't matter.
Force is a weapon ability - we know that because it's listed under the weapon, not the Psyker.
MSS allows the ability to be activated.
What are the requirements of the Force ability?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 14:14:45


Post by: DeathReaper


The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 14:25:22


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

Not true. The force ability has requirements that must be met to activate the ability.
An inquisitor can't meet the requirements, hence cannot activate the ability.
There is no Force psychic power. That's a holdover idea from 5th.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 20:04:21


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

Not true. The force ability has requirements that must be met to activate the ability.
An inquisitor can't meet the requirements, hence cannot activate the ability.
There is no Force psychic power. That's a holdover idea from 5th.

Not at all. It is true in 6th as well.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

Force is a Psychic power because after you take the psychic test and pass you successfully manifest the psychic power.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed from 5th ed.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 20:06:19


Post by: rigeld2


So it's not a weapon special rule?

That's interesting.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 20:30:11


Post by: Xzerios


Your still unable to break the rule for MSS which gave us permission to use your weapons Force Special rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:11:12


Post by: Kevlar


There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.

The force special rule says the psyker "May choose" to expend a warp charge on a successful wound roll.

All the MSS rule states is that the MSS controller chooses which weapon the opponent uses and then the attacks benefit from all of the bonuses or penalties of the weapon.

Nothing is stopping you from using the force benefit of the weapon without spending a warp charge. It just doesn't have any effect. MSS never gives permission to activate a force weapon by expending a warp charge, that option is strictly up to the psyker "by raw".



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:13:33


Post by: rigeld2


Kevlar wrote:
There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.

The force special rule says the psyker "May choose" to expend a warp charge on a successful wound roll.

All the MSS rule states is that the MSS controller chooses which weapon the opponent uses and then the attacks benefit from all of the bonuses or penalties of the weapon.

Nothing is stopping you from using the force benefit of the weapon without spending a warp charge. It just doesn't have any effect. MSS never gives permission to activate a force weapon by expending a warp charge, that option is strictly up to the psyker "by raw".

It says that the psyker may choose to activate it.
MSS forces the activation.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:17:01


Post by: Kevlar


rigeld2 wrote:
There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.
MSS forces the activation.


Please quote me the line where MSS forces the psyker to choose to expend a warp charge.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:27:31


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
It says that the psyker may choose to activate it.
MSS forces the activation.

MSS does not force the activation.

It only uses the abilities of the weapon. Expending a Warp Charge and Taking a Psychic test is not an ability of the weapon, as the weapon can not do these things.

Thus Force allows a Psyker the ability to cause ID, but Force itself does not cause ID.

Force, without a Psyker does nothing. Force with a non psychic Inquisitor is just an AP3 weapon.
rigeld2 wrote:
So it's not a weapon special rule?

It is a Special Rule of a weapon, albeit one that allows a Psyker to cast a psychic power that makes the wounds inflict Instant Death.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:29:04


Post by: rigeld2


MSS allows me to use the weapons special abilities.
Force is a weapon special ability.
I activate force.
The requirements must be met.
What are the requirements of the Force weapon special ability?
Can anyone answer that question or is it going to be ignored for a third time?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:30:02


Post by: Happyjew


I can't vouch for anybody else, but as for me, I'm going to keep ignoring it


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:31:18


Post by: DeathReaper


Force does nothing on its own.

It is not comparable to say armor bane.

Force allows a Psyker to cast a psychic power.

if the model wielding the weapon is not a psyker force is useless therefore force is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the Psyker wielding the weapon.


Edit: "What are the requirements of the Force weapon special ability?"

There are no requirements.

Nothing is required to wield a weapon with the Force special rule.

A force weapon requires a psyker to choose to manifest its power, just like any other psychic power.

It only gives the psyker a choice, nothing more.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:37:38


Post by: rigeld2


That's not what I asked.
There aren't any requirements to wield it, no. That's irrelevant.
The activation doesn't cause ID, the Force ability does.
It must be activated.
MSS forces the activation.
Why are you inserting the choice of ignoring that activation?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 21:45:22


Post by: DeathReaper


MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 22:09:54


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

No, that would not be true.
A non psyker cannot meet the requirements of a) spending a warp charge and b) making a psychic test. Therefore a non-psyker cannot activate Force.
MSS forces the activation and therefore the requirements must be met (if possible).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 22:31:56


Post by: Xzerios


 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

The first line of your post Death made me face palm. In order to activate the weapons Special Rules for Force, you must look up the rules for Force. Not every Psyker model has the weapon mind you.

When you get down to the rules for Force as it is written, it can make you use a charge, and make you take a Psychic test, and activate the Force rule for the weapon.

If your going to argue the Psyker gets to choose, if I get MSS to work, that model for all intensive purposes is mine with the express limits to his strength, weapon choice, and the weapons Special rules. I get to make any decision for that model in that combat. I will activate its Force weapon, and as the rule calls for the Psyker to choose to invest the point, I will choose to expend the point (should the model have one) as the rule on the weapon calls out for.

You dont get to decide, I do as Im the one activating the rule.






Now, to the biggest hamper in the argument. This is moot against non-character models with Force weapons as they would rather cast Hammer Hand in that combat or will have spent the one point for non Grey Knight armies in the Shooting Phase.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 22:53:09


Post by: DeathReaper


Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 23:00:25


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?
Note that that's different from saying MSS can activate Force but the Psyker can choose not to meet the requirements (which is what I thought you to be arguing until now).

The weapon has an ability. MSS forces that ability to be used. Where's your ability to say loljk not going to activate that coming from?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 23:43:37


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?


Sort of, as Force does nothing when wielded by a non-psyker.

That solidifies that the force activation is an ability of the psyker (Albeit one granted by the weapon to the psyker), and the activation is not an ability of the weapon itself.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/25 23:47:05


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?


Sort of, as Force does nothing when wielded by a non-psyker.

That solidifies that the force ability activation is on the psyker, and the activation is not an ability of the weapon.

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:06:18


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.


You cannot force the model to expend the charge. You can use the special property of the weapon as much as you like, it simply doesn't do anything without the model wielding the weapon choosing to expend the charge.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:10:00


Post by: rigeld2


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.


You cannot force the model to expend the charge. You can use the special property of the weapon as much as you like, it simply doesn't do anything without the model wielding the weapon choosing to expend the charge.

The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:15:45


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


I rather think Death nailed it a few posts back "can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?"


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:37:53


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

Because the weapon, in the hands of a non Psyker does not activate.

So the Warp Charge expenditure and LD test are not an ability of the weapon.

MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:45:17


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

Because the weapon, in the hands of a non Psyker does not activate.

So the Warp Charge expenditure and LD test are not an ability of the weapon.

MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

You're separating the Force ability out to some half psychic power half weapon ability. On what basis?
The expenditure and LD test are not a weapon ability, I've never claimed that they are.
They are required, however, when the Force ability is activated.

And you keep bringing up non-Psykers like its a relevant example. It's not.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:46:44


Post by: Kevlar


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

No, that would not be true.
A non psyker cannot meet the requirements of a) spending a warp charge and b) making a psychic test. Therefore a non-psyker cannot activate Force.
MSS forces the activation and therefore the requirements must be met (if possible).


That is true, a non psyker or a psyker with no remaining warp charges can wield a force weapon the same way a psyker who chooses not to expend a warp charge does.

The force USR still works, as a power weapon of whatever type it is (axe, sword, mace). The MSS rule doesn't affect this. The psyker can choose or not choose to activate the instant death part of the force USR. That is what the force USR states.

NOTHING in the MSS rule forces the wielder of a force weapon to expend a warp charge.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:50:20


Post by: rigeld2


Kevlar wrote:
The force USR still works, as a power weapon of whatever type it is (axe, sword, mace). The MSS rule doesn't affect this. The psyker can choose or not choose to activate the instant death part of the force USR. That is what the force USR states.

There's no "instant death part of the force USR". It's a weapon special ability. MSS is expressly permitted to use weapon special abilities.
You can't activate Force and then "oh, nm, I've decided not to".

NOTHING in the MSS rule forces the wielder of a force weapon to expend a warp charge.

You're right. That part is in the Force rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 00:52:24


Post by: DeathReaper


On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?


Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 01:24:23


Post by: Neorealist


So the Force USR states that the psyker can activate 'it'. 'It' in that case being the force weapon. Ergo, 'Force' is a property of the weapon itself, not something intrinsic to any given psyker in 6th ed.

So under normal circumstances the psyker can choose to:

1) Activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.
2) Not activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.

And under Mind-Shackled circumstances the psyker can (has to) choose to:

1) Activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.

As an essential part of following option 1)? The Psyker is required (as in, this is 'not' optional) to "...activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..." (as per the 'Force' USR)

So, some thoughts on the above:
A) There is no possible way for the psyker to activate the force property on his or her weapon without expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test. It is all one rule; the latter half of which is 'not' voluntary if the 'activate force property' action is selected for any reason.
B) The player controlling the necron model with Mind Shackle Scarabs can 'force' a model to activate any of its' weapons' properties.
C) This happens regardless of wether or not such is beneficial or detrimental to the effected model or wether or not additional costs must be paid other than the declaration of intent to use the weapon ability.
D) Mindshackle scarabs cannot 'force' a model to pay a cost for activating an ability which is impossible. (in this case if the warp charge is already spent earlier and the psyker does not have another one available)


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 01:36:38


Post by: Xzerios


 DeathReaper wrote:
On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?


Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.


This logic goes circular. Note though the out point is the fact that my model with MSS isnt the model with Force. What does your Force rule tell you to do (cause at this point, its not my model sir, its yours with me in the pilots seat)?


RAW for the rule of Force mandates that your model expend the charge (if it has it) and take the test. Again, this isnt my rule Im following, its yours. I point back to General vs Specific at this point. The rules for Force are listed as a USR; More specific than my models MSS rule. Even though my rule normally doesnt grant me the ability to make you take a Psychic test or even expend a point, this one does and I have been given access to the more specific rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 03:19:44


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


The model may expend a warp charge to activate the ability of its weapon if it so chooses, the ability cant activate without that first step. You can use the special rule but only if you can supply your own charge, the target psyker is under 0 obligation to do so on your behalf.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 03:35:28


Post by: Neorealist


Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that mindshackle scarabs 'forces' you to activate the weapons properties at the sole discretion of the necron player?

You do not appear to get to decide 'not' to use a given weapon property (in this case 'force', but we could just as easily be discussing a weapon which has some other optional effect) just because you feel that other rules apply to it. (or any other reason short of 'it's impossible to do so' so far as i am aware).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 03:43:32


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


'forces' you to activate the weapons properties at the sole discretion of the necron player?


MSS - "There are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"


What the rule states and what you claim it states are quite different.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 03:57:53


Post by: Neorealist


You may want to include more of the MSS rules text than your quote there. Allow me: "...These are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 04:12:08


Post by: Lt.Soundwave


which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 04:19:20


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?


Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.


You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus. Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon? What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.


Which is irrevocably flawed. It truly doesn't matter whether Force is defined as a psychic power or not. All that matters is that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the weapon. I would be very surprised if anyone in this thread disputed that. If so, I would be very interested in your reasoning.

Once you accept that the MSS controller can force the bearer of the Force Weapon to use the Force ability of that weapon, you must follow the rules for the Force USR (pg.37). This means that the decision to use the Force ability has, at this point, been made. So to satisfy this, you must spend a charge and take a test. There is no way to decouple the decision to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test. It simply can't be done.

All this talk about the psyker being able to choose to spend a point is just nonsense. All the psyker can do, in the normal course of play, is to choose whether or not to use the Force ability. If he chooses to do so, he must spend a charge and take a test. All the MSS does is supplant the choice the psyker has to use Force with that of the MSS controller. You still must spend a charge and take a test if the MSS controller chooses to activate the Force ability of the weapon.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 04:25:23


Post by: Neorealist


Lt.Soundwave wrote:which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.
Which quote are you referring to? Is it the one where he erroniously indicates that activation of the 'Force' USR for any reason would not in turn 'force' the psyker to expend a Warp Charge (if he or she has one) and take a leadership test?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 04:29:50


Post by: Yad


 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I rather think Death nailed it a few posts back "can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?"


What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? The Force USR is now a special rule that a weapon can have (i.e., weapon ability, weapon property, etc). MSS explicitly allows you to use any weapon special rule of the affected model. MSS never directly forces the affected model to take a psychic test and expend a charge. The Force USR does that.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 04:43:23


Post by: DeathReaper


Yad wrote:
You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus.


Not at all, as force is a psychic power.
Yad wrote:
Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon?

If the psyker chooses to activate it he follows the instructions.
Yad wrote:
What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?


MSS do not choose to use the force ability, they can not, as Force does nothing unless the Psyker immediately chooses to activate it by
expending a Warp Charge point and takes a Psychic test (see page 67).

As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 04:56:54


Post by: Neorealist


DeathReaper wrote:And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

This is where you are making an error in logic:

The choice the Psyker can make is wether to (or not, normally) activate the force property of his weapon. If he does activate it (or is forced to) the player of the psyker then has to follow the rules for the Force USR which Require the psykers' player to expend a warp charge and makes a leadership check on it's behalf.

There is no possible rules-legal way for the Force property of the weapon to be activated without following the rules for the Force USR which require the warp charge expenditure and leadership check. None.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 05:01:39


Post by: DeathReaper


Except that, as I have shown, the expenditure of a Warp Charge point, and taking a psychic test IS NOT an ability of the force weapon.

As I have shown because a Force weapon in the hands of a non-psychic inquisitor can not use the force ability. Therefore Force only grants the Psyker a choice to cast the Psychic power. MSS can not cast a psychic power of the model it only benefits from the weapons abilities.

Remember you only "benefit from any abilities... from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

You get a choice of which weapon to use, and you use all of the Weapons abilities.

But taking a psychic test and expending a Warp Charge point are not amongst the Weapons abilities.






MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 05:12:21


Post by: Neorealist


Sadly you have not actually proven that from what i can tell. To activate the 'Force' USR on the weapon requires a Warp Charge and a Leadership check to be made on behalf of the model with the force weapon being activated. Just because a (non-psyker) inquisitor can get his grubby inquisitorial mittens on a force weapon without the necessary warp charges to activate it does not mean that a model that actually 'has' warp charges cannot do so.

I realise you may be tired of hearing this: but the Necron model in this scenario is not the one that is being chosen to activate the force weapon nor paying the costs to do so. The MSS-ed psyker is. The only thing that the MSS wargear is doing in this case (that is relevant to your comment) is allowing the Necron player to make the choice to activate the weapon or not rather than the Psyker-owning player deciding wether or not to do so.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 05:17:03


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus.


Not at all, as force is a psychic power.


Which, if one were to actually accept that Force is a psychic power, is irrelevant for the purposes of MSS acting upon it. The Force USR also doesn't say that it's a psychic power. Which makes me curious, are there any 6th edition BRB psychic powers, outside of the actual psychic power section in the back of the book, that say they are a psychic power?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon?


If the psyker chooses to activate it he follows the instructions.


Yes, and if the psyker is affected by MSS the ability of the psyker to choose to activate Force is supplanted by the MSS player.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?


MSS do not choose to use the force ability, they can not, as Force does nothing unless the Psyker immediately chooses to activate it by
expending a Warp Charge point and takes a Psychic test (see page 67).


Then you must be reading a different rulebook then me. Cause when I turn to the special rules section and read the Force entry on pg.37 (I think) I see the rules for the Force USR. Does not the MSS rule allow the Necron player to use any special rule that the affected model's weapon(s) may have? Force is a special rule for a force weapon, thus eligible for MSS. Surely you can see how that works, yes?

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.


Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.


Again, you make the same mistake. The psyker is choosing to activate Force when they score an unsaved wound with the Force weapon. That's all they are choosing to do. Score an unsaved wound...activate Force. The choice to activate Force then necessitates an expenditure of a warp charge and a successful psychic test.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 05:45:24


Post by: DeathReaper


Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.


Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

-Yad


It is kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me that you can not see that all force does is allow the psyker wielding the weapon access to the Psychic power held within.
 Neorealist wrote:
I realise you may be tired of hearing this: but the Necron model in this scenario is not the one that is being chosen to activate the force weapon nor paying the costs to do so. The MSS-ed psyker is. The only thing that the MSS wargear is doing in this case (that is relevant to your comment) is allowing the Necron player to make the choice to activate the weapon or not rather than the Psyker-owning player deciding wether or not to do so.


No actually the Necron player does not have a choice, he will "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

He only has a choice between close combat weapons if there is a choice.

you always use the abilities and penalties from the CCW.

Sadly you do not have the choice to activate the force weapon, nowhere in the MSS rules gives you that permission.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 09:57:17


Post by: Happyjew


Wait, I just realized something. we are looking at this all wrong. MSS benefits from any abilities the weapon has. Force is not an ability. It is a special rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 11:50:36


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.


Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

-Yad


It is kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me that you can not see that all force does is allow the psyker wielding the weapon access to the Psychic power held within.


Let's assume for the moment that I accept that Force is a psychic power even though the RAW doesn't label it as such. Why does that matter? How are Force Weapon entries in the BRB tied to the Force USR? Force is not intrinsic to the wielder, it's an ability of the weapon. Choosing to use the Force USR causes the wielder to expend a charge and take a test. I think you'll agree that MSS lets you use any ability of the weapon. Why do you have a problem with the MSS player choosing to activate Force on behalf of the wielder, just like any other ability that can be activated/used?

You seem to have this mindset that because the Force USR is a psychic power it cannot be an ability of the weapon because the psyker needs to choose to use a charge and take a test. That reasoning fails because:

A.) The psyker isn't choosing to spend a charge and take a test. The psyker is choosing, per the Force rules, to activate Force when one or more unsaved wounds are made.
B.) Force is never labeled, per the Force rules themselves, as a psychic power.
C.) The Force USR is an ability of the weapon, not the psyker. The Force USR is never applied directly to the psyker. Force, and all its rules therein, are applied to the weapon. As such it can be affected by MSS.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 14:01:08


Post by: DeathReaper


Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 14:50:12


Post by: Neorealist


What choice does the Force ability offer, other than wether or not to activate it? Do you think the psychic test and warp charge expenditure are optional for some reason?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 15:13:19


Post by: Xzerios


Gentlemen, the anti Force side wins.

Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8, the rules for Force state within it 'he'; In this case referencing the Psyker model itself and due in part to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, the owning player chooses in this case.


The owner would be silly to activate it of course, but that clears this up. No Force for the Necrons. :3


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 15:38:49


Post by: Neorealist


The more specific codex rule for Mindshackle Scarabs trumps the general 'Controlling Player vs Opposing Player' rule on page 8. if it didn't? MSS wouldn't do anything at all (let alone force an activation of the force USR).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 16:08:51


Post by: Xzerios


No sir, you misunderstand. MSS gives us access to Strength, Weapon choice (which trumps the Player rule), and Special rules. RAW states that the 'he' (the Psyker) chooses to expend the point. MSS did not give us permission to make choices in USRs, only to choose to use them. If a choice comes up in one of those rules where the model chooses to do x. Its still on the Player that owns the model to choose in that instance as the rule reads for the model to make the choice which defers us back to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player.

The power of the choice to expend the charge is still outside the scope of what MSS allows us to do as it has outlined what we have permission to do. We sure do have access to the rule, but again, the rule calls for the model owner to choose and thats something that MSS doesnt let us control.



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 17:52:01


Post by: rigeld2


MSS gives access to the ability. Saying that the psyker gets to choose is denying access to the ability.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 18:01:26


Post by: Xzerios


Bottom line, Is it his model or our model?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 18:14:16


Post by: rigeld2


Xzerios wrote:
Bottom line, Is it his model or our model?

It's the opponents.
But the MSS has control of it - as the rule says. If the charge+LD is a requirement of activation, MSS can force it.
If the charge+LD is a psychic bower that Force creates and that's what causes ID, despite the lack of clear language saying so and only an inference to say it is, then MSS cannot use the Force ability.

Bottom line.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 18:44:39


Post by: Xzerios


No. The RAW for MSS only gives the MSS model permission to activate Special rules attached to the weapon of the target model. RAW in this case, this Special rule calls for the Psyker model to choose to invest the point. We are not the owner of the model and RAW at that point the owner chooses, merely controlling it for D3 Attacks at its own Strength and Special rules and penalties that the weapon we choose confers to the model.

Its the wording of the rules for Force that disallows us to activate it. Had the word 'he' been written as 'attacker'; It could then be swung to MSS favor as it us attacking with that model.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:00:06


Post by: Neorealist


I suspect you may be making the same logical mistake as deathreaper did earlier: Once the Force USR itself has been used as a weapon property it does not offer a subsequent 'choice' to expend the warp charge and make the leadership check; those are 'required' as a result of choosing to activate the Force USR.

In other words if the MSS controller chooses to have the psyker activate his or her force weapon (which as a weapon ability they are explicitly allowed to do via the intervention of MSS) the psyker then 'has' to do all the other stuff the Force USR requires. They can not and may not skip any of it unless it's impossible to do (for example if they (the MSS-ed model) does not have a warp charge for some reason).


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:03:20


Post by: Xzerios


The only problem is that the choice to expend the charge is the owner of the model as the rule for Force is written.

Dont get me wrong, we can still choose to 'activate' Force weaponry, but when it comes time to expend the Warp Charge point, the way the rule for Force is written, its the owner of the models choice. MSS does not allow us to change the way the rule is written to satisfy its own requirements.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:10:41


Post by: Neorealist


Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:14:31


Post by: Xzerios


 Neorealist wrote:
Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.


Completely correct, but the word 'he' in the sentence for choosing to activate it reads to the model itself. In this case, the owner of the model gets to choose whether or not to spend the point. The confusion that comes from the pro-MSS side is that it is our MSS model that is the 'he', yet it is in fact not the noun the sentence is directed at.

See what Im saying?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:24:09


Post by: Neorealist


I do see what you are saying. I just believe that MSS temporarily changes the person who gets to make weapon activation decisions for the 'he' mentioned in the rules text from the Psykers' player to the Necron player.

The reason i believe this is because MSS explicitly allows one to choose which weapon abilities to use if there is a choice involved in doing so.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:24:19


Post by: Happyjew


And as I pointed out earlier, Force is a special rule, not an ability of the weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:32:21


Post by: Neorealist


Yup, and I lol-ed then too.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/26 19:57:04


Post by: Xzerios


Happyjew wrote:
And as I pointed out earlier, Force is a special rule, not an ability of the weapon.

Thats pretty obvious, but RAW is the only reason your correct. MSS doesnt change ownership of the model. Just in this combat are we allowed to attack with it for the outlined material by MSS. As the rule for Force calls out, its the models choice with the word 'he' and the rule for Controlling Player vs Opposing Player states that any time a choice is to be made by a model, its the owner of the models choice; Not ours.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 00:55:28


Post by: DeathReaper


I said that on Page 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 00:57:59


Post by: Xzerios


Rules and page numbers next time then! Haha


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 01:00:28


Post by: DeathReaper


Yea, I did not even think to check the rules about Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8.

I knew I had read something to that effect, but could not figure out where it came from.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 03:15:55


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test. If so you're wrong. The choice is about whether or not to activate Force when you score an unsaved wound with a weapon that has access to the Force USR. If you choose to activate Force you are then directed to, per the Force USR rule, use a warp charge and take a psychic test.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xzerios wrote:
Gentlemen, the anti Force side wins.

Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8, the rules for Force state within it 'he'; In this case referencing the Psyker model itself and due in part to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, the owning player chooses in this case.


The owner would be silly to activate it of course, but that clears this up. No Force for the Necrons. :3


Not quite. The MSS rules overrule the general rule about Controlling vs. Opposing player actions.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xzerios wrote:
... RAW states that the 'he' (the Psyker) chooses to expend the point. MSS did not give us permission to make choices in USRs, only to choose to use them. If a choice comes up in one of those rules where the model chooses to do x. Its still on the Player that owns the model to choose in that instance as the rule reads for the model to make the choice which defers us back to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player.


Part of what you're getting wrong here is the assumption that the psyker is choosing to spend a warp charge. That's not the choice being made. As I stated earlier, the choice being made is about whether or not to activate Force. If yes, then spend charge and take test.

Xzerios wrote:
The power of the choice to expend the charge is still outside the scope of what MSS allows us to do as it has outlined what we have permission to do. We sure do have access to the rule, but again, the rule calls for the model owner to choose and thats something that MSS doesnt let us control.


I agree that the ability to force the psyker to directly spend the warp charge is beyond the capabilities of MSS. You're making a mistake though in thinking that is how Force works and how MSS interacts with it. You can't say that MSS has access to the Force rule, but then cannot 'force' the bearer to satisfy the activation requirements. The act of choosing to use the Force USR necessitates a warp charge and a psychic test. I repeat it until someone can prove otherwise... Can you demonstrate, within the rules for the Force USR, the capability to activate Force and not have to pay the charge and take a psychic test? If so, then I would agree with you. Obviously I don't think it's possible, but I'd like to see your reasoning.

-Yad



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xzerios wrote:
 Neorealist wrote:
Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.


Completely correct, but the word 'he' in the sentence for choosing to activate it reads to the model itself. In this case, the owner of the model gets to choose whether or not to spend the point. The confusion that comes from the pro-MSS side is that it is our MSS model that is the 'he', yet it is in fact not the noun the sentence is directed at.

See what Im saying?


Yeah, I see what you're saying...it's just plain wrong though. You've accepted that the only choice made is whether or not to activate Force. There is no other choice allowed within the actual rules for Force. In the normal course of play the psyker would be in the driver's seat choosing whether or not to activate. However, when the psyker is affected by MSS that choice is removed from the psyker and given to the MSS controller. Should the MSS controller then choose to activate you must follow the activate rules for Force. Which you've already agreed that there is no choice about.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
I said that on Page 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.


And you were just as wrong then as you are now

The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so. MSS does allow the MSS controller to activate Force.

Yes, the psyker would then need to take the test.

Which is something that the Force rule requires to have happen should the MSS controller choose to activate Force.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 03:30:09


Post by: DeathReaper


Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.


Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 04:15:50


Post by: Neorealist


You are incorrect on both counts: The controller of the MSS may 'choose' which abilities and penalties he or she allows to happen if (and only if) there is a choice involved in their activation. (which there is for the Force USR)

And as i've already said in earlier comments, the only choice that the Force USR allows is wether or not to activate it's properties. If unsaved wounds are suffered and the choice is made for any reason to activate the weapon you (the player who brought the psyker) are then required (in an entirely non-optional fashion, i cannot stress this part enough given how frequently there are claims to the contrary) to spend a warp charge (if the psyker has one available) and make a leadership check.

If you succeed at the above? (ie: spending a warp charge and passing a leadership test) your own psyker mind-swirlies him or herself as a result of their unfortunate run-in with necron technology.




MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 05:08:22


Post by: Xzerios


I agree with Yad on the part that MSS trumps Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, but only up to the weapon choice part. MSS gives Necrons the choice to all those Special rules and the like and normally those Special rules are just 'on', much like a Singing Spear from the Eldar; Or Gorechild from Kharn in the CSM. In this case though, this Special rule requires another choice to be made and MSS does not cover "If those Special rules have choices, you decide in those too".

Initiative: Necron player
Strength: Necron player
Weapon: Necron player
Special rules: Necron player
Choices within Special rules: Owning player


Again, MSS trumps the Controlling Player vs Opposing Player up to that last part. Due in part to Force's wording, another choice is to be made and we dont govern that choice as MSS does not give us permission to do so. Only to the part where we say "Im gona use Force on the weapon" and the owning player chooses to expend the Warp Charge point.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 05:19:02


Post by: DeathReaper


 Neorealist wrote:
You are incorrect on both counts: The controller of the MSS may 'choose' which abilities and penalties he or she allows to happen if (and only if) there is a choice involved in their activation. (which there is for the Force USR)

That is not true, as MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 05:39:22


Post by: Neorealist


There are three nouns in the MSS rules-text you quoted, not just one. There is no reason to believe that "...The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice..." refers to the choice (if any) of which close combat weapons to use, any more or less than the choice of which optional abilities to use, or the choice of which optional penalties to use for that matter.

Do you have any compelling rules documentation that indicates the only choice the MSSs' controller can make is which close combat weapon to use? As the above rules-text does not bear out your contention.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 05:43:47


Post by: Xzerios


 Neorealist wrote:
There are three nouns in the MSS rules-text you quoted, not just one. There is no reason to believe that "...The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice..." refers to the choice (if any) of which close combat weapons to use, any more or less than the choice of which optional abilities to use, or the choice of which optional penalties to use for that matter.

Do you have any compelling rules documentation that indicates the only choice the MSSs' controller can make is which close combat weapon you use? As the above rules-text does not bear out your contention.

Completely correct Neo. Again though, its in this sentence that permission is not granted to govern choices that are brought on -by- the rules you have selected to use. Ive outlined what that sentence covers above. Also, you must use the sentence in its full context in this situation to get a correct RAW approach. Using half a sentence can jeopardize your position in the debate.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 06:08:08


Post by: Neorealist


Hehe i'm sure i've quoted the relevent rules for MSS, Force, etc, enough times now; i don't intend on retyping them each and every time i post something. I'd like to address your other comments though:


1) You seem to agree that the Force property of the weapon is activated by MSS. (either by virtue of the Necron player deciding to do so, or failing that as a default part of the "...benefits from any abilities..." part of the rules-text for MSS. The reason the activation occurs is not relevant to my point, just that it does for a rules-valid reason.)

2) Activating the Force property of the weapon requires that a warp charge be spent and a leadership check be made on behalf of the psyker manifesting the ability. The only 'choice' in the force USR that i've found is one at the beginning, which is a choice between activating the force weapon, or 'not' activating the force weapon.

3) If MSS can and does 'activate' the force ability of a given close combat weapon, and activating a force weapon 'requires' a couple of things as listed in step 2, on what grounds do you still feel it'd be the Psykers' Owners' choice wether or not to follow the rules for the Force USR?



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 06:17:34


Post by: Xzerios


Because in the USR it states plainly that :
Pg 37 BRB wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test.

This phrase creates another choice within the rule itself and MSS does not allow us to govern this second choice. Mind you you can choose not to use the USR Force, and you can also Choose not to expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test as this USR calls out for.


MSS as its written gives us control over only one of these choices.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 06:31:33


Post by: Neorealist


The choice to activate the force weapon or not does occur after an unsaved wound is inflicted, sure.

However the Force USR does not in and of itself create an 'extra' optional choice to activate the Force property of the weapon after it has already been activated by the MSS, nor an optional choice to spend a warp charge, and most certainly not an optional choice to make a leadership check as you seem to be indicating.

That ship has sailed by virtue of the 'decision' to activate the force weapon in the first place; as such that choice (the only choice the Force USR calls for) has already been made and the rest of the Force USR is mandatory.





MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 10:36:50


Post by: Tarrasq


Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 10:59:00


Post by: Stoff3


The MSS really needs a big boost so I can see why people here are fighting for even more brokeness *oh the ironi*...

Sure it's GW and arguably Matt Ward who are writing the stuff really bad and sure people wanna take advantage of that but come on.. There's just nothing to gain from this discussion before an update to the faq's are presented, that is much needed in many other ways too. And in all honesty do you really believe that Necrons are in need of benefiting from grey area rulings when they are in the state they are in?



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:05:52


Post by: copper.talos


This isn't a gray area ruling. Granted, the poll is 50-50, which may be due to people still thinking with 5th in mind. The rules in 6th clearly side with MSS activating force weapons.

The only "counter argument" is that there is a choice to spend a warp charge, which is completely invalid as such choice is never described/permitted anywhere in the BRB. The only choice ever given is the activation or not of an ability which the MSS has every right to make.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:15:38


Post by: Stoff3


copper.talos wrote:
This isn't a gray area ruling. Granted, the poll is 50-50, which may be due to people still thinking with 5th in mind. The rules in 6th clearly side with MSS activating force weapons.

The only "counter argument" is that there is a choice to spend a warp charge, which is completely invalid as such choice is never described/permitted anywhere in the BRB. The only choice ever given is the activation or not of an ability which the MSS has every right to make.


That is your interpretation my friend, obviously there are as many against that interpretation as for it so it could with no problem be explained as a grey area.

I would like to adress the fact that in the Necron faq it does not state anything about being given the opportunity to activate anything, just using the abilities of the weapon. Without activating the force weapons do not cause instant death but have other abilities that are available in the attack against himeself or the unit he's in using the MSS.

So the big question is, which gw has failed to adress, if you should interprete it as you are able to use passive abilities of the weapon or if you also can activate special rules of the weapon. I can see why people see it both ways and it's because of that I asked if MSS was in need of a boost and if necrons as a team was in need of more autowinning stuff since this is a grey area.




MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:35:15


Post by: copper.talos


MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:41:32


Post by: Stoff3


copper.talos wrote:
MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.


The most eyebrown raising thing about your statement is that the stuff you adress as abilities are in fact adressed as "special rules" in the 6th edition rulebook. And to be honest, the faq doesn't say anything about MSS having the explicit permission to ACTIVATE weapon abilities.

You can't add your own words to the text but have to read it as it is.

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:48:27


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.


Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.


Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:54:12


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.


Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.


Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad


I have a hard time seeing the way you are arguing. The necron player is not in complete control of the mind shackled model. It just makes that model inflict d3 hits and so on. If there's a choice about which weapon to choose the necron player would choose. I don't see why that line is there if it would be interpreted like you do, that you have control over the model. Therefore I really don't see why you believe that you can make a decision that isn't yours to make about the model.

If the faq would have stated, the owner of the model with the MSS is in complete control of the model then the ownership would shift temporarely and I would have given you credit for your statement. The strongest point in your case and argument is the fluff text, but I really would choose to read the actual rulings to be able to tell what can be done and what can't.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 11:58:09


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.


The most eyebrown raising thing about your statement is that the stuff you adress as abilities are in fact adressed as "special rules" in the 6th edition rulebook. And to be honest, the faq doesn't say anything about MSS having the explicit permission to ACTIVATE weapon abilities.


Activate/invoke/use...they're all interchangeable. Force doesn't say, "the psyker can choose to manifest it by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." By your logic then you ought to agree that Force is not a psychic power? Personally, I don't think it is, but for different reasons

 Stoff3 wrote:
You can't add your own words to the text but have to read it as it is.

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.


Instant Death has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why do you think this is relevant? Is this an attempt at constructing a straw man?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.


Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.


Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad


I have a hard time seeing the way you are arguing. The necron player is not in complete control of the mind shackled model. It just makes that model inflict d3 hits and so on. If there's a choice about which weapon to choose the necron player would choose. I don't see why that line is there if it would be interpreted like you do, that you have control over the model. Therefore I really don't see why you believe that you can make a decision that isn't yours to make about the model.

If the faq would have stated, the owner of the model with the MSS is in complete control of the model then the ownership would shift temporarely and I would have given you credit for your statement. The strongest point in your case and argument is the fluff text, but I really would choose to read the actual rulings to be able to tell what can be done and what can't.


The Necron player however is in control of the means by which the affected model carries out its close combat attacks. Inflicting D3 attacks is just part of it. You've seemed to have left off the bit out how the MSS controller can take advantage of any ability that the affected model's weapon(s) may have.

Did someone earlier in thread mention that there was language in the rule regarding returning control of the affected model back to the opposing player? Unfortunately I don't have immediate access to my codex or FAQ.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 12:39:55


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.


The most eyebrown raising thing about your statement is that the stuff you adress as abilities are in fact adressed as "special rules" in the 6th edition rulebook. And to be honest, the faq doesn't say anything about MSS having the explicit permission to ACTIVATE weapon abilities.


Activate/invoke/use...they're all interchangeable. Force doesn't say, "the psyker can choose to manifest it by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." By your logic then you ought to agree that Force is not a psychic power? Personally, I don't think it is, but for different reasons

 Stoff3 wrote:
You can't add your own words to the text but have to read it as it is.

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.


Instant Death has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why do you think this is relevant? Is this an attempt at constructing a straw man?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.



I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.


Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.


Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad


I have a hard time seeing the way you are arguing. The necron player is not in complete control of the mind shackled model. It just makes that model inflict d3 hits and so on. If there's a choice about which weapon to choose the necron player would choose. I don't see why that line is there if it would be interpreted like you do, that you have control over the model. Therefore I really don't see why you believe that you can make a decision that isn't yours to make about the model.

If the faq would have stated, the owner of the model with the MSS is in complete control of the model then the ownership would shift temporarely and I would have given you credit for your statement. The strongest point in your case and argument is the fluff text, but I really would choose to read the actual rulings to be able to tell what can be done and what can't.


The Necron player however is in control of the means by which the affected model carries out its close combat attacks. Inflicting D3 attacks is just part of it. You've seemed to have left off the bit out how the MSS controller can take advantage of any ability that the affected model's weapon(s) may have.

Did someone earlier in thread mention that there was language in the rule regarding returning control of the affected model back to the opposing player? Unfortunately I don't have immediate access to my codex or FAQ.

-Yad


Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 12:47:29


Post by: copper.talos


The wording you are looking for is "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck".

And I suspect that some have never read the MSS rule at all. There is no other to reason to claim that MSS can't use the abilities of the weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 12:56:07


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:00:06


Post by: HawaiiMatt


 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.


Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:00:46


Post by: Stoff3


copper.talos wrote:
The wording you are looking for is "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck".

And I suspect that some have never read the MSS rule at all. There is no other to reason to claim that MSS can't use the abilities of the weapon.


Sure there are many reasons. The fact that you choose to ignore all of them is just sad.

I would believe that if the model was completely under the necron players control then the rule for MSS would say to. How hard could it be to write something like " the model and all choices are made by the player owning the model equipped with the MSS bla bla bla..." if it was intended that way? Nothing would be up for debate then, but now the rule clearly tells you what things happen and as I said before it does not say anything about forcing psychic tests for special rules. You just claim that it works in a way despite the fact that neither the rule itself or the new faq states that you take total control of the model, you just control what weapons is chosen!
Therefore it is not strange that the rule also states that the "control" is given back so the owning player can choose weapons by himself after that.

Do you believe GW are so stupid (the are stupid sometimes but not that stupid) that they can't even clarify that a model is under total control in a faq?

Just because I can force someone to move (pavaane of slaanesh for an example) does not give me total control of the model since it just states that I can make the model do.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:01:20


Post by: Yad


dup post


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:06:25


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

I would understand what you're saying when it comes to stuff the weapon does and the wielder can't affect it but this is clearly different.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:06:54


Post by: Yad


HawaiiMatt wrote:
 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.


Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt


Because the MSS rule is not actually making the psyker take the test. The Force USR is. Take another gander at the Force rule and you'll see it yourself. The psyker can activate Force by spending a charge and taking a test. This is the only way that Force can be activated. Since MSS allows the Necron player to use the abilities of the affected model's weapon, Force can be used. And by 'used' I mean activated, for how else can you use Force?

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:09:17


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.


Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt


Because the MSS rule is not actually making the psyker take the test. The Force USR is. Take another gander at the Force rule and you'll see it yourself. The psyker can activate Force by spending a charge and taking a test. This is the only way that Force can be activated. Since MSS allows the Necron player to use the abilities of the affected model's weapon, Force can be used. And by 'used' I mean activated, for how else can you use Force?

-Yad


You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:12:22


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.


You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spent and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:13:10


Post by: rigeld2


 Stoff3 wrote:
You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Ignore MSS completely for a minute.

How does Force get activated?

Is it just "I want to activate Force."

or is it "I want to cast the Force psyker power."


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:15:50


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.


Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt


Because the MSS rule is not actually making the psyker take the test. The Force USR is. Take another gander at the Force rule and you'll see it yourself. The psyker can activate Force by spending a charge and taking a test. This is the only way that Force can be activated. Since MSS allows the Necron player to use the abilities of the affected model's weapon, Force can be used. And by 'used' I mean activated, for how else can you use Force?

-Yad


You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.


Still missing the mark here. The decision to activate Force necessitates the expenditure of a warp charge and attempt to pass a psychic test. You can't decouple the two.

Putting it another way...If the a model has a weapon that has access to the Force USR scores a number of unsaved wounds what can that model do? He can decide to utilize (activate/invoke/use) the Force rule. When that decision is made the psyker must then spend a charge and take a psychic test.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:20:27


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.


You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad


You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner). Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:27:58


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.


You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad


You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).


The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.


See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:33:04


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.


You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad


You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).


The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.


See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad


Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 13:41:03


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.


You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad


You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).


The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.


See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad


Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.


This is progress of a sort You're right that it's the psyker that can choose to activate (or not) the Force ability of the weapon. Now you just need to understand that MSS supplants the choice of the psyker on whether or not to activate with that of the MSS controller.

You're still coming up short on the actual rule mechanic of the Force USR though. In the normal course of play, assuming the pre-conditions have been met to use Force, the psyker can choose to activate Force. What happens when the psyker chooses to activate Force? The psyker spends a warp charge and takes a psychic test.

Can you point to any other way to decouple the positive choice to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test? I seriously doubt you'll find any such rule in the Force USR. Since MSS supplants the psyker's choice in using the Force rule of the weapon, the MSS player can choose to activate it. A positive choice in activating the Force USR makes the bearer spend a charge and take a psychic test. You can't avoid it.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 14:20:54


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.


The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.


With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

I will quoute

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.


GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad


To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.


You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad


You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).


The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.


See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad


Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.


This is progress of a sort You're right that it's the psyker that can choose to activate (or not) the Force ability of the weapon. Now you just need to understand that MSS supplants the choice of the psyker on whether or not to activate with that of the MSS controller.

You're still coming up short on the actual rule mechanic of the Force USR though. In the normal course of play, assuming the pre-conditions have been met to use Force, the psyker can choose to activate Force. What happens when the psyker chooses to activate Force? The psyker spends a warp charge and takes a psychic test.

Can you point to any other way to decouple the positive choice to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test? I seriously doubt you'll find any such rule in the Force USR. Since MSS supplants the psyker's choice in using the Force rule of the weapon, the MSS player can choose to activate it. A positive choice in activating the Force USR makes the bearer spend a charge and take a psychic test. You can't avoid it.

-Yad


Wrong, it is not the MSS owners choice to make since it isn't stated in the MSS rules that you control the model. The only choice however stated in the MSS rules is that you can make is the choice of weapon. Just out of curiousity, if something gives your GK librarian an extra attack with his weapon, does that force you to use the activation and gain instant death? No since the librarian (owner) makes this decision even though the ability exists it is still a CHOICE wich the core rules states is made by the librarian (owner). And nowhere does it in MSS say that you control the model. Ofcourse can I choose not to activate, since I'm the owner even when affected by MSS.

You are making assumptions on things that aren't even in the MSS rules when you make your case.

I will quote from the necron faq: "... and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons..". It is not the weapon that activates, it is the psyker himself that makes this choice and since the necron player don't control the model, the owner makes that choice. Not especially strange according to the MSS rule text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If gw once again change the MSS text in a new faq we could surely see a change either to clarify the benefits from melee weapons or maybe more text clarifying the total or non total control of the model.

There's no certain way in saying how they will do, but it's probably time to lock the thread since all discussions just go around in circles and we have clarified that there about a 50%-50% in the poll.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 14:26:09


Post by: copper.talos


What part of " and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons." did you not understand?

Or you believe "Force" is not an ability of the force weapon?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 14:31:23


Post by: Stoff3


copper.talos wrote:
What part of " and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons." did you not understand?

Or you believe "Force" is not an ability of the force weapon?


What part of the "Force" section do you not understand? It is not the weapon that activates, it is a choice of the user and the USER activates or does NOT. Since the user is not under the necron players control but merely restricted to a set of rules your idea of autowin in challenges surely isn't appliable. Surely the necron player could try and claim that it should activate, but since the choice isn't made by him, how then could it activate?

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 14:41:40


Post by: copper.talos


To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 14:57:56


Post by: Stoff3


copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?


Oh dear..

If MSS rules had stated that you do not only benefit from abilities but that you can USE them also then it would be quite clear. The issue here is that you can benefit from a weapons abilities without activating another ability. And since it's specifically stated that the Force can only be activated by a choice made by the owner how are you going to activate it?

It is a huge difference in benefiting and being able to use abilities. It's very clear that MSS doesn't give you permission to USE and activate anything.

We can only speculate in how GW wants this to work, and we'll probably know when next faq comes out (I hope).

Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 15:04:51


Post by: copper.talos


Actually I never had any problems with it even in 5th.

Anyway since you never answered the question AGAIN, I'll help you. BRB pg 60 Force is an ability of the weapon. No grey area there at all.

With MSS all the WOUNDS caused the force weapon benefit from that ability. That is RAW. And in the Force entry there isn't even a hint of a "choice" in spending that warp charge.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 15:11:13


Post by: Yad


 Stoff3 wrote:


cutting another wall of test

Yad wrote:Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.

This is progress of a sort You're right that it's the psyker that can choose to activate (or not) the Force ability of the weapon. Now you just need to understand that MSS supplants the choice of the psyker on whether or not to activate with that of the MSS controller.

You're still coming up short on the actual rule mechanic of the Force USR though. In the normal course of play, assuming the pre-conditions have been met to use Force, the psyker can choose to activate Force. What happens when the psyker chooses to activate Force? The psyker spends a warp charge and takes a psychic test.

Can you point to any other way to decouple the positive choice to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test? I seriously doubt you'll find any such rule in the Force USR. Since MSS supplants the psyker's choice in using the Force rule of the weapon, the MSS player can choose to activate it. A positive choice in activating the Force USR makes the bearer spend a charge and take a psychic test. You can't avoid it.

-Yad


Wrong, it is not the MSS owners choice to make since it isn't stated in the MSS rules that you control the model. The only choice however stated in the MSS rules is that you can make is the choice of weapon.


And any abilities and penalties that weapon may have. You seem to be consistently neglecting that part of the MSS rules and what it actually means.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Just out of curiousity, if something gives your GK librarian an extra attack with his weapon, does that force you to use the activation and gain instant death?


This strikes me as a nonsensical example. Force dictates the conditions that must exist in order for the bearer of the weapon with the Force USR to get to the point where he can decide whether or not to use it (Force). Getting an extra attack isn't one of them, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

 Stoff3 wrote:
No since the librarian (owner) makes this decision even though the ability exists it is still a CHOICE wich the core rules states is made by the librarian (owner). And nowhere does it in MSS say that you control the model. Ofcourse can I choose not to activate, since I'm the owner even when affected by MSS.


In the normal course of play, the psyker (doesn't matter what type of psyker) can choose to activate Force if, per the actual rules of the Force USR, he has scored one or more unsaved wounds. If the psyker chooses to use the Force USR he must then activate it by expending a charge and taking a psychic test.

The MSS rules are very clear in stating what they can do. The MSS rules make the MSS player use any ability (and penalty) of the weapon(s) that the affected model has. The MSS player chooses to have the affected model strike with a weapon that has the Force USR. The MSS player has permission to utilize any ability that the weapon has on behalf of the bearer. Force is an ability of the weapon. That ability can be used, per the MSS rules. The only way to use the ability is to spend a charge and take a test.

 Stoff3 wrote:
You are making assumptions on things that aren't even in the MSS rules when you make your case.

I will quote from the necron faq: "... and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons..". It is not the weapon that activates, it is the psyker himself that makes this choice and since the necron player don't control the model, the owner makes that choice. Not especially strange according to the MSS rule text.


So close

Yes, the weapon doesn't activate itself. It is normally the psyker that chooses whether or not to use Force. MSS supplants this choice via the bit you quoted. You've got all the dots, you just need to connect them

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 15:12:42


Post by: Tye_Informer


 Stoff3 wrote:

If MSS rules had stated that you do not only benefit from abilities but that you can USE them also then it would be quite clear. The issue here is that you can benefit from a weapons abilities without activating another ability. And since it's specifically stated that the Force can only be activated by a choice made by the owner how are you going to activate it?

It is a huge difference in benefiting and being able to use abilities. It's very clear that MSS doesn't give you permission to USE and activate anything.


But it does (emphasis added).

These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.


If there is a choice of abilities, penalties, and/or Melee weapons, the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses. That is permission to "USE and activate" the ability, penalty, and/or Melee weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 15:29:40


Post by: jy2


 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.



 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.





MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 15:44:38


Post by: rigeld2


rigeld2 wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Ignore MSS completely for a minute.

How does Force get activated?

Is it just "I want to activate Force."

or is it "I want to cast the Force psyker power."


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 16:03:09


Post by: Yad


 jy2 wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.



 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.



@Stoff3:
Correct me if I'm wrong Stoff3, but I suspect that you're trying to assert that MSS only allows access to the passive abilities of the weapon(s) carried by the affected model. Which is not what the MSS rule actually says. It allows any ability of the weapon to be used. Force is such an ability.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 16:41:03


Post by: azazel the cat


rigeld2 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:
You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Ignore MSS completely for a minute.

How does Force get activated?

Is it just "I want to activate Force."

or is it "I want to cast the Force psyker power."

It is the option that I have highlighted for you.

Force is NOT a Psyker power. It is a USR that belongs to a weapon. All Psyker powers are found on the tables and on the cards. If you look, you will be unable to find Force amongst them.

Having established that it is an ability of the weapon, then MSS gives the Necron permission to activate that ability.

The Force USR forces the weapon's wielder to expend a warp charge and take a Perils test. No permission is needed, as this is not optional; it is a requirement of the Force USR. They are married.

Therefore, the Necron can activate the Force weapon via MSS.

In the 6th Ed. rulebook, this is cut and dry. I don't understand how anyone can debate this anymore. I keep reading the same "permissive ruleset and you don't have permission to take a psyker test", except this instance goes beyond permission: it is a requirement of the Force ability -which is a weapon ability- and thus can be activated via MSS.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt wrote:I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt

Matt; Furious Charge is not an ability of the weapon; it is an ability of the model. MSS only gives the Necron permission to use the abilities of the weapon.

"Force" is an ability of the weapon; as it is listed in the weapon's profile, and not on the psyker tables.

So that guarantees that the Necron is allowed to use the Force ability from the weapon.

And when the Force ability is activated, no permission is required for the next steps, as the warp charge and test are required to be taken once the decision to activate the Force ability has been made. Hence, that strange clown magician analogy.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 17:20:43


Post by: Happyjew


Yad wrote: how else does one use Force?


Generally by waving my arms around like some kind of Jedi.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 17:27:58


Post by: Yad


Happyjew wrote:
Yad wrote: how else does one use Force?


Generally by waving my arms around like some kind of Jedi.


this made me lol

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 17:39:58


Post by: rigeld2


Happyjew wrote:
Yad wrote: how else does one use Force?


Generally by waving my arms around like some kind of Jedi.

Duh. That's "The Force" not "Force". Keep up man.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 17:51:13


Post by: Stoff3


Yad wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.



 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.



@Stoff3:
Correct me if I'm wrong Stoff3, but I suspect that you're trying to assert that MSS only allows access to the passive abilities of the weapon(s) carried by the affected model. Which is not what the MSS rule actually says. It allows any ability of the weapon to be used. Force is such an ability.

-Yad


That is incorrect. It does most certainly not allow any ability to be used in that case it would have stated just that. Benefit and use (activate) is not the same and until any corrections or clarifications arrive my hones opinion is that it's NOT that clear that some here believe. And as I have written about 100 times here soon isnt benefiting from abilites the same as controlling choices made my the model or owner.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 17:52:54


Post by: Xzerios


Allow me folks to go over this here. In complete entirety.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

Ok, so we have control over this model for D3 attacks; hits with the controlled models Strength; our choice of weaponry should such choices exist; and lastly, choice of Special rules and penalties that apply to the weapon we selected. Sounds pretty damn sweet.

To demonstrate what Im talking about when I say that there is a second choice within the Special rule for Force, Ill be going through a few different Special rules that are from the BRB and others from various Codex'. First up will be the big one, Force as its the relevant topic.

Pg 37 BRB wrote:
Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

Ok, as this rule is written, we can clearly see that their is a 'choice' within this rule. Its determined by 'he' and that refers to the model in question. The reason that GW worked in this rhetorical statement is to create an On/Off switch within the rule. Does it seem Rhetorical? Yes, it does. Why? Cause if Im claiming to use it, Im pretty darn sure Im about to use it, silly rule. Though, when you look at it from this On/Off perspective, it begins to make sense. Take the choice away from the sentence. Thats right, read that rule without the Adverb and the extra words that put it into the sentence. Do you see that On/Off switch now? No. Now it should read something like this:

Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

No On/Off switch to be had, and now its a Special rule that is merely 'always on' as now there is no choice to be made. At the first unsaved wound, spend a Warp Charge point (if the model has one) and take a Psychic test. Pass and profit. That wording fits with what MSS gives us permission to do.

Im going to use another Special rule from the BRB to demonstrate another rule without an On/Off switch but builds grounds for choice to use the Special rule with context to models. Skyfire.
Pg 42 BRB wrote:
Skyfire
A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Right so as this Special rule reads out that any model or weapon with it fires with a normal Ballistic Skill on the units outlined above. No On/Off to be read here right? You are correct. Take that into context with Fliers though and you have a model with this Special rule at all times, but must choose to use it at the start of the shooting phase. This builds the grounds that you can elect to use Special rules, but if the rule reads to allow another choice within it, you must choose (once again) to continue with the rule. On the flip side though, a non-flier model with this Special rule does not get to decide which means it will fall into the next category, 'always on'.

One more rule here that doesnt have context behind it, but like Skyfire, is an 'always on' rule. Fleshbane.
Pg 35 BRB wrote:
Fleshbane
If a model has this special rule, or is attacking with a Melee weapon that has this special rule, they always wound on a 2+ in close combat.

Similarly, if a model make a shooting attack with a weapon that has this special rule, they always wound on a 2+.

In either case, this special rule has no effect against vehicles.

This rule attached to a weapon is an 'always on' rule. No choice is written within it. In this instance, the MSS model does not get to choose as the rule has chosen for us.

The biggest problem folks are going to have is that MSS was written in the 5th edition environment where there were no On/Off switches within Special rules. The rule works with the notion that if the rule is attached to a weapon, it is always on; Working so the MSS does not have to make any other choices outside of choosing weapons and their Special rules. Though as the rules for Force demonstrate, it has a worded On/Off switch so your not using it on Every.Unsaved.Wound.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 18:29:19


Post by: DeathReaper


 azazel the cat wrote:
Force is NOT a Psyker power. It is a USR that belongs to a weapon. All Psyker powers are found on the tables and on the cards. If you look, you will be unable to find Force amongst them.

Except it is a Psychic power, albeit one granted by a weapons USR. Remember it allows a psychic test, and as I have pointed out before, if successful the power is manifested.
Tye_Informer wrote:


These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.


If there is a choice of abilities, penalties, and/or Melee weapons, the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses. That is permission to "USE and activate" the ability, penalty, and/or Melee weapon.

Yea, you have the incorrect reading of that sentence.

The "if there is a choice" refers to "the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which," which in turn refers to "Close Combat Weapons"

It does not refer to "any abilities and penalties" because if it did you would be able to choose which penalties that applied.

copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.

Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 18:36:19


Post by: copper.talos


Circular argument is circular. The psyker never gets to choose to spend that warp charge. The only choice that is described in the rules is the activation of the force weapon.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 18:44:11


Post by: DeathReaper


copper.talos wrote:
Circular argument is circular. The psyker never gets to choose to spend that warp charge. The only choice that is described in the rules is the activation of the force weapon.

The Force USR Disagrees with you.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 18:44:47


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:


copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.


Close. You're right that it's an ability of the weapon. But the choice the psyker is making is not about whether or not spend a charge and take a psychic test, it's about whether or not to activate it. Says so right in the Force USR. "...can choose to activate it by spending a warp charge..." What is he choosing? To activate or not. How does he activate? By spending a charge and taking a test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.


MSS supplants the psyker's chance to choose to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

-Yad



MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 18:47:00


Post by: DeathReaper


Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:


copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.


Close. You're right that it's an ability of the weapon. But the choice the psyker is making is not about whether or not spend a charge and take a psychic test, it's about whether or not to activate it. Says so right in the Force USR. "...can choose to activate it by spending a warp charge..." What is he choosing? To activate or not. How does he activate? By spending a charge and taking a test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.


MSS supplants the psyker's chance to choose to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

-Yad


MSS does not say that.

The only choice MSS gives is which Close Combat weapon to use, if there is a choice between CCW's


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 18:50:35


Post by: Yad


 DeathReaper wrote:
Yad wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:


copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.


Close. You're right that it's an ability of the weapon. But the choice the psyker is making is not about whether or not spend a charge and take a psychic test, it's about whether or not to activate it. Says so right in the Force USR. "...can choose to activate it by spending a warp charge..." What is he choosing? To activate or not. How does he activate? By spending a charge and taking a test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.


MSS supplants the psyker's chance to choose to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

-Yad


MSS does not say that.

The only choice MSS gives is which Close Combat weapon to use, if there is a choice between CCW's


and gives you the benefit of any ability that weapon has. You've agreed that Force is an ability of the weapon thus eligible to be used when the bearer of the Force Weapon is affected by MSS. You seem to introducing a constraint to the usage of 'benefit' in the MSS rule. Limiting it to passive effects only. This is a constraint that I certainly don't agree with. When you gain the benefit of any ability that the weapon has you gain full access to those abilities.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 19:04:09


Post by: Xzerios


Anyone wish to address the mechanic of the On/Off switch that the rule RAW has built into it? Anyone? Ill take either side at this point.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 19:10:33


Post by: Tye_Informer


 DeathReaper wrote:
Tye_Informer wrote:


These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.


If there is a choice of abilities, penalties, and/or Melee weapons, the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses. That is permission to "USE and activate" the ability, penalty, and/or Melee weapon.

Yea, you have the incorrect reading of that sentence.

The "if there is a choice" refers to "the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which," which in turn refers to "Close Combat Weapons"

It does not refer to "any abilities and penalties" because if it did you would be able to choose which penalties that applied.



If there are choices about the penalties, then you could choose which penalties applied, just like abilities. If there are not choices, then you can't choose. That's what the sentence says. (Or at least, that's how I read it)

The way I see it, the choice part of the sentence applies to everything after the comma ", and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons". You seem to be saying that the choice is only the last item in the list. What English Language rule limits it to the last item? How about this sentence "The chair comes in choices on color, padding, and heights (chosen by the customer)". Does that say that chair height is the only thing the customer gets a choice on, and color and padding are either random or selected by someone other than the customer?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 19:20:33


Post by: Tyr Grimtooth


I think that the best comparison would be looking at a poisioned weapon.

A poisoned weapon wounds on a set value. This is an ability of the weapon which MSS would be in control. The model has no control over this ability.

A force weapon has the ability to inflict ID. This is an ability of the weapon that MSS would be in control. However to activate the ID ability of the force weapon is an ability of the model equipped with the force weapon, ie, expending a warp charge. That is not covered by the rules for MSS.

Hence, while the MSS has the ability to inflict ID, it does not have the means.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 19:49:26


Post by: Happyjew


For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 19:53:15


Post by: Yad


Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?


You can't and I haven't

I don't think there are any penalties you can elect to not take. I think penalties are passive effects of the weapon that you have no choice but to accept (i.e., the cost of using the weapon).

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 19:59:59


Post by: Happyjew


Yad wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?


You can't and I haven't

-Yad


So if you cannot choose to use any abilities, how are you choosing to invoke the Force special rule? I'm not arguing for one side or the other anymore, I've dropped out of that. This is pure curiosity on peoples thoughts.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 20:01:19


Post by: Yad


Happyjew wrote:
Yad wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?


You can't and I haven't

-Yad


So if you cannot choose to use any abilities, how are you choosing to invoke the Force special rule? I'm not arguing for one side or the other anymore, I've dropped out of that. This is pure curiosity on peoples thoughts.


Your specific question was about choosing whether or not to use a penalty. You've taken my answer an applied it too broadly.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 20:03:06


Post by: Happyjew


That's because the part of the rule regarding abilities of the weapons is a single clause including the penalties of the weapons. You get the abilities and penalties of the weapon. If you are able to choose whether or not to use an ability of the weapon, why can you not make the same choice regarding penalties?


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 20:05:05


Post by: Yad


I'll elaborate. Passive effects, be they penalties or benefits, cannot be directly invoked by the bearer. Their effects automatically apply.

MSS provides access to any ability, be it a benefit or a penalty. The MSS controller has no say with regards to passive abilities.

Since MSS provides access to the Force USR, you must follow the rules for Force.

-Yad


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 20:17:08


Post by: Happyjew


OK, now that I've read the updated rule in the FAQ (should have looked there first, oh well) I notice that the wording has been changed to "(the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)".
So you choose the weapon and it benefits from any abilities/penalties from the weapon. Now I'm really confused as to where you are getting to choose non-passive abilities.


MSS and force weapons @ 2012/08/27 20:26:11


Post by: DeathReaper


Happyjew wrote:
OK, now that I've read the updated rule in the FAQ (should have looked there first, oh well) I notice that the wording has been changed to "(the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)".
So you choose the weapon and it benefits from any abilities/penalties from the weapon. Now I'm really confused as to where you are getting to choose non-passive abilities.


I never thought to check the FAQ, but the sentence makes sense to me.

and I am also confused as to where they are getting to choose non-passive abilities. It is an assertation they are making without rules support.
Yad wrote:
Since MSS provides access to the Force USR, you must follow the rules for Force.

-Yad

The rules for Force allow the Psyker to make a choice.

so choosing not to spend the warp charge is within the Force rules.