thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The effect being that the 'cron player can choose to use any ability of the CC weapons carried by the affected model (paraphrasing a bit here but I think we can agree on that ) Yes?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

I agree with you that the MSS rule does not allow the 'cron player to expend a warp charge that the affected model may have. But you're wrong if you think that that is what MSS is doing when it affects a psyker bearing a weapon with the Force USR. All MSS does (in this scenario) is allow the 'cron player to have the affected model use the Force ability of the weapon. Once you can accept that, you ought to be able to see that the only way the affected model can use the Force ability of the weapon is to expend a charge and take a psychic test.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.

It's not that the MSS is making the affected psyker expend a charge and take a psychic test, it's the Force ability of the weapon that is making the psyker expend a charge and take a psychic test. There is no 'choice' for the psyker to make. The Force USR requires the expenditure of a charge and a successful psychic test in order to activate it.

-Yad

Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?

Thimn wrote:
Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?

Because they're in control of the model only in very, very specific ways (those listed). So the controlling Necron player can't make the controlled model do anything that isn't explicitly granted by the rules.

However, choosing which weapon abilities to use is one of those choices and choosing to use the 'Force' weapon special rule does mean the psyker has to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test in order to utilize this special rule at the Necron player's command.

Thimn wrote:
Yad what makes you think the Necron player can't expend the force charge?

Looking at the rules, as it states the Necron Player is in control of the Psyker, how can they not have the ability to use the Force Charge if one is available?

Because all the Necron player is doing in this scenario is invoking the Force ability of the weapon. It's the Force rule that then requires the psyker to expend a charge and take a psychic test. It may seem like splitting hairs, but this is my answer to the folks who are claiming that the reason they are saying no in the poll is because they think MSS can't directly force the psyker to expend a charge.

-Yad

edit: ninja'd by Yakface

Because they're in control of the model only in very, very specific ways (those listed). So the controlling Necron player can't make the controlled model do anything that isn't explicitly granted by the rules.

However, choosing which weapon abilities to use is one of those choices and choosing to use the 'Force' weapon special rule does mean the psyker has to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test in order to utilize this special rule at the Necron player's command.

Ahh I see what you mean.

A player gets to choose to activate an ability or not. The loss of a warp charge and the leadership test are the obligatory actions after an ability is activated.

In the case of MSS the force ability of the weapon is activated like any other weapon ability. The player has to make the obligatory actions. He has no choice on this. But as some have said before me, just expend the warp charge on another ability.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Fluff is not rules.

Try not misquoting me please.

Thanks

I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

JBrehaut wrote:I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

Because many people are still in the 5th Ed. mindset, where the rules really could be interpreted either way, as "Force" was not a USR of the weapon.

However, in 6th Ed., ther eis absolutely no doubt. You've laid it out exactly right.

 azazel the cat wrote:

JBrehaut wrote:I can't believe how either stupid, or stubborn, some people are, refusing to read anything they don't want to be the case.

MSS gives you PERMISSION to use the abilities of the weapon in question.
FORCE is an ABILITY of the force weapon.
FORCE tells you to expend a warp charge.
MSS gives you PERMISSION to use FORCE>to expend a warp charge.

I really don't see how you can just shut your eyes, and shake your head saying 'nopermissionnopermissionnopermissionnopermission'

Because many people are still in the 5th Ed. mindset, where the rules really could be interpreted either way, as "Force" was not a USR of the weapon.

However, in 6th Ed., ther eis absolutely no doubt. You've laid it out exactly right.

Right you have permission to use Force. I wound a model with my Force Weapon. You decide to invoke the Force USR. You are then required to usea Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. You do not have any Warp Charges. You cannot activate the Force property. If GW changes this that's all well and good, seeing as how I don't have any Force Weapons, nor do I play against any Necrons.

Read the Force rule again. It uses the warp charge of the psyker that bears the force weapon.

Happyjew wrote:

Right you have permission to use Force. I wound a model with my Force Weapon. You decide to invoke the Force USR. You are then required to usea Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. You do not have any Warp Charges. You cannot activate the Force property. If GW changes this that's all well and good, seeing as how I don't have any Force Weapons, nor do I play against any Necrons.

Players do not have warp charges, psyker models do. In order to activate the 'force' (weapon) ability, which the Necron player is forcing the psyker model to do, the psyker must expend a warp charge point and take a psychic test.

Models don't roll the dice, the player does, therefore it is impossible for the psyker to take a psychic test, therefore, Force is unusable.

Happyjew wrote:
Models don't roll the dice, the player does, therefore it is impossible for the psyker to take a psychic test, therefore, Force is unusable.

Agreed. In fact, a whole lot of the rules are written like that, so sadly we can't even play the game at all.

Well that solves that i guess, back to playing monopoly then?

On a related note: For the folk who say you can't activate a Force weapon with MSS. Has anyone explained why spending a Warp Charge needs to be a voluntary act on the part of the player who owns the mind-controlled psyker? it's entirely possible to lose warp charges as a result of a (non-owner controlled) ability after all. (see the Demon Bile entry on page 103 for an example)

 Neorealist wrote:
Well that solves that i guess, back to playing monopoly then?

On a related note: For the folk who say you can't activate a Force weapon with MSS. Has anyone explained why spending a Warp Charge needs to be a voluntary act on the part of the player who owns the mind-controlled psyker? it's entirely possible to lose warp charges as a result of a (non-owner controlled) ability after all. (see the Demon Bile entry on page 103 for an example)

Because Warp Charges are not an ability of the weapon, but an ability the Psyker himself has regardless if he has a force weapon or not.

And yet the rule for Force requires the owner of the weapon to expend a charge and take a Psychic test to activate the Special Rule.

Annnnd at this I'm dropping out. Neither side will change their mind until it gets FAQ'd.

DeathReaper wrote:Because Warp Charges are not an ability of the weapon, but an ability the Psyker himself has regardless if he has a force weapon or not.

Right, everyone agrees that the Warp Charges are not an intrinsic property of the weapon itself i should think and i do not believe anyone is saying otherwise.

However, that doesn't answer my question: What inherent property prevents the player of the mind-controlled psyker from being 'forced' (hehe) to spend a warp charge if available and roll a leadership check on behalf of his or her model should one of the models weapons' properties require it? (which the activation of the 'Force' property of the weapon does from what i can tell)

The fact that MSS can only use the ability of the weapon, and can not use Warp charges because warp charges are not an ability from the force weapon.

We should probably wait for an FAQ, but if they keep with what it was force will not be able to be used, but they change rules with FAQ's all the time so I will not be surprised if they let the MSS use the Force weapon to instagib someone. not that many psykers have Warp Charges come time to swing, Prescience is too good of an ability to leave uncast.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The fact that MSS can only use the ability of the weapon, and can not use Warp charges because warp charges are not an ability from the force weapon.

We should probably wait for an FAQ, but if they keep with what it was force will not be able to be used, but they change rules with FAQ's all the time so I will not be surprised if they let the MSS use the Force weapon to instagib someone. not that many psykers have Warp Charges come time to swing, Prescience is too good of an ability to leave uncast.

They activate Force.
Force expends a warp charge.
What is stopping the expenditure?

The Psyker has to expend the warp charge point.

The weapon has no Warp Charge points to use.

That is what is stopping the activation.

The Psyker can always choose not to expend a Warp Charge as Spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon it is an ability of the Psyker.

Basically :
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

Replace the He with the MSS model, and if that model has a Warp Charge point then that model can use the Force ability. But you can not drain a Warp Charge from the Psyker.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Psyker has to expend the warp charge point.

The weapon has no Warp Charge points to use.

That is what is stopping the activation.

The Psyker can always choose not to expend a Warp Charge as Spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon it is an ability of the Psyker.

Basically :
"he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..."

Replace the He with the MSS model, and if that model has a Warp Charge point then that model can use the Force ability. But you can not drain a Warp Charge from the Psyker.

Yup, sure does.
Nope, it sure doesnt.
If thats the logic your going to use, even you cant activate your own Force weapon.

To your edit, its not my model with the Force Special rule. Its yours. If your rule told you to do that, you would have to do that. In this instance, its the Necron player in your stead making your model do that, which requires a Warp Charge point, and a Psychic Test to activate. Again, its not our special rule, its yours. We have to abide by the rules outlined within that Special rule just as much as you have to.

Basically:
MSS gives us permission to your weapons rules.
Your weapons rules give you permission to use a Warp Charge point if you have it (which we have permission to use the Special rule that requires you to do this).
Its remained in the realm of permissive the whole time.

No, the weapon gives a Psyker with a Warp Charge permission to expend the Warp Charge.

"[The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..." P.37

If the model with the MSS does not have a warp charge point to spend, he can not activate the Force Ability of the weapon.

MSS says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Spending a Warp Charge point is not an ability of the weapon, it is the ability of the Psyker, since Weapons do not generate Warp Charges.

Xzerios wrote:
To your edit, its not my model with the Force Special rule. Its yours.

Actually My model does not have the force ability, but the weapon wielded by my model does.

My model isnt the one with the Force Special rule. Its yours good sir. Your model.

Xzerios wrote:
My model isnt the one with the Force Special rule. Its yours good sir. Your model.

Well since it his model that has the Force special rule, it would seem that you cannot use it, as you cannot use special rules of the model.

And MSS has given me permission to do so. Only his weapons Special Rules though. I cant make him cast a Psyker spell that could be cast in Close Combat as I have not been given permission to do so. I only have permission to use the model affected by MSS to attack D3 times, with any and all Special rules that the weapon confers to that model. The Special rule for Force is now tied to your weapon unlike in 5th. Since the rule for Force on your models weapon calls for you (and in this case, I) to expend a Warp Charge point, and take a Psychic test to activate it; We do so. If for whatever reason we are unable to expend a point on the account of the unit/model not having a Warp Charge point, you or I would be unable to activate the weapon. Thats the only limiting factor to the rule.

Force is tied to the weapon, but Warp Charges are not, and the ability to cast a Psychic Power is also not tied to the force weapon.

So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Xzerios wrote:
So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Sure you can, as the Force ability says a Psyker can activate the weapon.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he [The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

Now in the case of the MSS, you can replace the word he [which means The Psyker wielding the weapon] with The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs.

So it would look like this (The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).)

You know if we are reading everything with a word by word interpretation, psykers and their controllers do not control the warp charge itself. It says they are expended not that the model nor controller chooses to pay a warp charge then a power, force weapon or artefact is activated. Consider it a debit account that is charged automatically not cash that you have to hand over first. You choose to do these things then the warp charge is expended not the other way around. You choose a power to use then you expend the WC and make the testl. You choose to activate Force ability and expend the WC and make the test. Under powers it is spelled out exactly as such. Under Force it is implied in the same sentence as failing the test, implying that you can activate it but not have the WC to expend and fail.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Xzerios wrote:So, you cant use your own Force weapon with that logic. :|

Sure you can, as the Force ability says a Psyker can activate the weapon.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he [The Psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

Now in the case of the MSS, you can replace the word he [which means The Psyker wielding the weapon] with The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs.

So it would look like this (The model with the Mind Shackle Scarabs can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).)

You misread what MSS does. To save on time, Im just going to post the rule for you.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

Again, its not my model that has the Force Special rule tied to its weapon. Its your model. Your model then must meet the prerequisites for its own Special rule, not mine. If your model has a warp charge point left, I can then force you to expend it per the rules for Force and then force you to take the Psychic test as the rules for Force require. Again, the model with MSS doesnt have to do this series of tests as the model doesnt even have the Force Special rule.

Your model.
Your Weapon.
Your Special rule.

Right "These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Expending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, if it were then Inquisitors with nemesis force weapons, that were not psykers, could still activate them, which is not the case.

The hits benefit from the "Force" rule, as that is a ability of the weapon, but "expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." is not an ability of the weapon, it requires a Psyker to do it, so that is not an ability of the weapon.

Casting the Psychic power to to make the model lose all unsaved wounds is not an ability of the weapon. (Force requires a Psychic test, P.67 tells us psychic tests are used to activate Psychic powers, the effects of the force weapon give the Psyker an additional Psychic power he can cast. Nothing has changed).

Your models weapon has the Special rule for Force. Read what it requires you to do to use it. Until you do, this discussion cannot continue good sir.

I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

He's given a choice to activate it. The MSS allows that choice to be forced on him.
The activation requires the warp charge. Since he's forced to activate it, he's forced to spend the charge.

You can not force a Psyker to cast a Psychic power, you only use the "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Casting a Psychic power is not an "abilitiy from his Melee weapon"

DeathReaper wrote:I have read what is required. (It is quite insulting that you are insinuating otherwise, as I have quoted the rule a few times now).

Expending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the weapon.

You are not given permission to use the Warp charge, as the Psyker is given a choice.

No, the rule on the weapon calls for this. To not do that is breaking the rule for Force and the rule for MSS.

DeathReaper wrote:You can not force a Psyker to cast a Psychic power, you only use the "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

Casting a Psychic power is not an "abilitiy from his Melee weapon"

I seem to be missing the part that states that Force is a 'Psychic Power'. Point that out to me please.

"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

Now that you have that portion here, let us read the rules for Force again. What does the rule give you (me in this case) permission to do?
Expend the point, then take the Psychic test.

Your own models Force weapon gives you permission to do that same action above. In the permissive rule set, we were just given permission to do that very action by your weapons own Special rule.

No it does not give you permission to cast the Psychic power, as the Weapon does not have the ability to do so.

Well good sir, you just argued the point that your own model cant activate its own Force weapon. :3

Cynicism aside here, your Force weapon calls for the expenditure of a Warp Charge point, and a Psychic test. If you cant expend the point, you dont have to test. If you have a point, you meet the requirements for the rule.

Again, the Permissive Rule set gave us permission to force this on your unit/model through the wording of the rule. As I would like to point out now, this is the RAW forum, and RAW, the point will be spent if its there, and the test will happen if the point is there. Activating your Force weapon with the rules for Force weapons.

Yes a Psyker may activate the force weapon, because a Psyker is allowed to expend a warp charge and cast a Psychic power.

The Force weapon itself does not have the ability to cast the psychic power, the model wielding it does.

MSS does not let you use my models abilities, just any abilities of my models weapons. (Please note the difference between the two).

You have no permission to use a psychic power my model has.

Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

Then we have two very different versions of how the Permissive Rule set works in this matter. Thats fine though, go back to RAW and tell me what the rules for Force tell us to do.
Keep in mind:
MSS gave us permission to your weapons rules.
How the rules for Force weapons are written.

I said it earlier in the thread but at this stage I think it bears repeating:

By granting permission to use the force weapon you have to have access to the rules that govern how to use it.

Without this you technically couldn't utilize a lot of special rules. Hit and Run (from Nemesor Zahndrekh as an example) wouldn't work. You have the Hit and Run special rule but without having access to the rules that tell you how to use it you can't actually take an initiative test to break off from combat (taking an initiative test is only referenced under the Hit and Run rules, but are explained fully on page 7).

The Force special rule specifically states how it is activated under it's own heading (expending a Warp charge and taking a psychic test). As Force is indeed a weapon special rule once MSS grants you access to it you have to follow the rules governing how to activate it, otherwise I fail to see how Force has been allowed by the MSS controller.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

A bird is yellow.
That thing over there is yellow. Is it a bird? No, it's a school bus.

Activating Force is no longer a psychic power. It's just resolved similar to one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

I activate the Force special rule.
This requires a warp charge to be spent.

Find the permission allowing you choice.
By activating the Force power the warp charge is expended and the test is forced.
It's not an ability of the weapon, it's a requirement of the special rule.

DeathReaper wrote:the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

I think this is the reason why you're misunderstanding how the rules interact. Use of the Force USR doesn't allow the Psyker to choose to expend a charge, it forces them to. If the psyker decides to activate Force, per the Force USR, he [b]must[/i] expend a charge and take a psychic test. That is how the psyker 'activates' Force.

DeathReaper wrote:It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

I agree that it's the psyker that needs to take the test, but you're missing the point of why the psyker needs to take the test (because Force was chosen to be activated by the Necron player)

-Yad




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yak - the MSS controller chooses to use the "Force" ability, but the player decides not to expend a warp charge.

Nothing happens.

My opinion on this is that you're making the same mistake that DeathReaper is making. As soon as you allow for the MSS controller to use the Force ability you must follow the rules for that ability. The rules for Force explicitly state that the only way to activate it (i.e., use) is to expend a charge and take a psychic test. There is no allowance in either the Force rule or MSS rule to decouple the cost of activation. Unless I've missed a rule in force that allows you to 'use' the Force USR without paying the cost for activating it.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

A bird is yellow.
That thing over there is yellow. Is it a bird? No, it's a school bus.

Activating Force is no longer a psychic power. It's just resolved similar to one.

Except that the Force ability tells you to (See Page 67).

What is on Page 67?

"Manifesting Psychic Powers"

And it also tells us to take a Psychic test. what happens when we take a Psychic test?

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested" (67)

Therefore if the test is passed we have manifested a Psychic power, something that MSS can not do as manifesting Psychic powers are not an ability of a force weapon.

Spetulhu wrote:
No permission to make the psyker expend charges, no Force.

There is no permission in the MSS rules that directly makes the psyker expend charges. The Force on the other hand explicitly requires the expenditure of a charge in order to activate (i.e., use) it. Therefore, should the MSS player choose, on behalf of the affected model, to use the Force ability of the weapon, the bearer of the weapon must satisfy the activation cost. There is nothing in the Force rule that allows the bearer to activate the Force ability without paying it's cost.

-Yad

That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

The rule that forces the psyker to expend the charge and take the test is the Force rule. The part has already been quoted in this thread so I'm not sure why your asking for it. The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean? It means that in order to activate the Force ability a warp charge must be expended and a psychic test passed. Can you show us where in the Force rules you are able to activate Force without paying its activation cost?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Yad wrote:The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean?

All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Agreed on both points, but you're still missing the fact (crucial in this topic) that the Force USR requires, once the decision to activate has been made, that the warp charge be expended and the psychic test taken. Can you find a rule that let's you choose to activate Force and not expend a charge and take a test?

DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean?

All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

I think you're 100% wrong on this one. The psyker does not have any option whatsoever to avoid paying the activation cost of the Force USR once the decision has been made to activate it. I'd really like to know, per the Force USR itself, how this is possible.

-Yad

I think this is pretty cut and clear, I'm surprised the poll is a dead 50/50. If there's a warpcharge available, a force weapon grants its user the ability to activate it for instant deathing any models taking unsaved wounds. MSS lets you use all bonuses and abilities granted by a weapon.

I don't see how there's any difference between 'forcing your opponent to consume a warp charge' and 'forcing your opponent to use his poison re-roll'. It's a benefit of the weapon, the fact that the model only has x number of warp-charges per turn is inconsequential.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

No, the choice was made for him - Force has been activated.
Now the requirements must be bet. What are the requirements for Force?

 morgendonner wrote:
I think this is pretty cut and clear, I'm surprised the poll is a dead 50/50. If there's a warpcharge available, a force weapon grants its user the ability to activate it for instant deathing any models taking unsaved wounds. MSS lets you use all bonuses and abilities granted by a weapon.

I don't see how there's any difference between 'forcing your opponent to consume a warp charge' and 'forcing your opponent to use his poison re-roll'. It's a benefit of the weapon, the fact that the model only has x number of warp-charges per turn is inconsequential.

I think it is pretty cut and clear that MSS cannot force a psyker to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test. Honestly though I'm not surprised that the poll is about 50/50. Just goes to show that GW needs new FAQs.

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Agreed on both points, but you're still missing the fact (crucial in this topic) that the Force USR requires, once the decision to activate has been made, that the warp charge be expended and the psychic test taken. Can you find a rule that let's you choose to activate Force and not expend a charge and take a test?

A decision that lies with the Psyker manifesting the Psychic power.

This is not an ability of the weapon, because if the wielder were not a psyker then they could not utilize the force rule.

So if the Psyker wants to he can expend a warp charge to manifest the power.

All the Force special rule does is give him access to that Psychic Power.

 DeathReaper wrote:

A decision that lies with the Psyker manifesting the Psychic power.

This is not an ability of the weapon, because if the wielder were not a psyker then they could not utilize the force rule.

So if the Psyker wants to he can expend a warp charge to manifest the power.

All the Force special rule does is give him access to that choice.

No, the Force special rule

BRB wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).

MSS Forces activation. It's activated by spending a warp charge, etc. Since MSS allows the activation of Force it forces the Warp Charge expenditure.
Trying to say the choice lies with the Psyker is saying that MSS cannot activate Force.

No MSS only uses the ability of the weapon.

Force is an ability of the weapon, but manifesting the psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon. This lies within the psyker himself. The weapon simply gives the psyker access to the psychic power.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No MSS only uses the ability of the weapon.

Force is an ability of the weapon, but manifesting the psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon. This lies within the psyker himself. The weapon simply gives the psyker access to the psychic power.

In 5th that was true. In 6th that's not how the Force rule reads.
And it's also irrelevant.

Activating Force has the requirement of spending a warp charge and a test. MSS forces the activation of Force.
Where is the permission to choose to ignore the requirement?

We ignore it because manifesting a psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon, and MSS tells us to use the weapons abilities.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed. (They just gave a roundabout way of finding that information).

 DeathReaper wrote:
We ignore it because manifesting a psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon, and MSS tells us to use the weapons abilities.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed. (They just gave a roundabout way of finding that information).

Again, yellow bird, school bus.

You're making an assumption that all psychic tests manifest powers.
You're told to make a Psychic test with a rules reference to how to do so.
You're also ignoring the fact that the Force special rule requires the test to be taken. You're inserting the choice in there where there is none.

I don't care if the weapon can't manifest a psychic power. I'm not trying to. I am forcing you to activate the Force special rule on your weapon. You must now meet all the requirements of that special rule.
What are those requirements?

[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

WRONG!

It's to spend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test!

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

WRONG!

It's to spend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test!

Darn. Do at least get credit for trying?

I know I said I was done with this thread, but allow me to amend my previous post. I am done arguing in this thread. Neither side is going to budge and with the poll at 49.9999999999...and 50.000000...001, we can tell that the only way for this to be determined is for GW to get off their and release FAQs that actually address the myriad of issues (such as the power weapon confusion, scattered blasts, weapons that are not listed in the rulebook...)

Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

Nope, there is no choice to spend a charge and take the test. The choice is whether or not to activate (i.e., use) the Force ability of the weapon. If you or the Necron player chooses to do so, you must spend a charge and take a psychic test.

No soup for you!!

-Yad

Lets see if I can outline this more thoroughly for the anti-Force side. In my example, Im going to be using the Grey Knights Nemesis Force Weapons rules from page 54 of their Codex. It states that they if they have the Brotherhood of Psykers, they test with one roll to activate for the whole unit.

Pg 54 Grey Knights Codex wrote:
Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll sperately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the units' Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the units Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test.

Note here that the very first sentence references us to the BRB.

Pg 37 BRB wrote:
Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

Well, seems pretty clear thus far. Note once more that this is a USR. More specific than whats mentioned on page 67. The reason it sites you to that page is to cover what happens for the Psychic test that this USR calls for.

I would also like to point out that this is not a Psyker power, its a USR

Page 67 covers the who and the whats for that Psychic test. Lets post these up here just for clarifications sake. Im only going to post the bolded portion from Manifesting Psychic Powers section as its what we are looking for here to conclude the rules for Force.

Pg 67 BRB, bolded section to its end wrote:
Manifesting Psychic Powers
1. Expend Warp Charge
Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge.

2. Declare Target
If the pschic power requires a target, choose it now.

3. Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1 or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately.

4. Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens.

5. Resolve Psychic Power
Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll, it is now resolved.
Again note that the USR for Force did at no time call itself a Psychic power, yet here it has told us to go to this part of page 67 to resolve the USR for Force. Does this make it a Psychic power as folks from the anti-Force side claim? No, because if it was, it would have said so in its own rule.

So, since thats been outlined. MSS only gives us access to your model for D3 attacks at your models strength, and benefit from any special rules you have tied to its weapon. As the USR Force has outlined, its a property of the weapon, and it tells you to expend a charge, take a test, and depending on that test, you get to activate the effects of the USR, or you dont.


Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because you are told to reference page 67 and one of the steps is Deny the Witch.

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because you can't use "Deny the Witch" on it. They clarify it because someone probably thought it was a Psychic Power and then wanted to use DtW on it. You can't.

For the MSS / Force issue, I'm convinced that MSS can activate the Force USR on the weapon. MSS rules state that if there is a choice, the Necron player get's to choose. There's a choice, so Necron player chooses.

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because otherwise there'd be a 50 page thread debating it here?

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because otherwise there'd be a 50 page thread debating it here?

We're working on it. 5 pages down, 45 more to go.

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

I think there are two ways you can look at the Force USR with regards to the question as to whether or not it's a psychic power

1.) No -- because the Force USR does not define itself as a psychic power
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

These are the two that I could think off the top of my head, you may have other reasons. Either way though the point is moot. Because Force (and all it's rules contained therein) are encapsulated and applied as an ability of a weapon. As such, the MSS rule has every right to 'use' that ability.

I'll offer a more technical explanation as to why GW clarified that DtW cannot be used...I think that's because you never declare the target of the power to be an enemy model/unit (assuming you think Force is a psychic power). The target of the 'power' wound be the unsaved wound(s). that's just my reasoning based off of the wording of Force (what happens when it succeeds) and the requirements in DtW that must be met in order to get a roll.

-Yad

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew

Depending on how the rule is worded, yes. And as long as this fabled Special Rule is tied directly to the weapon.

Again though, that situation comes down to how the rule was to be written.

Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew

Going just by logic alone (because there is no actual RAW for this hypothetical rule), then if the player wants his weapon to be S10 AP1, then he would have to sacrifice one member from his squad anyways. It is a condition and also a requirement in order to make the weapon S10.

Now if MSS controls this person and forces him to make it a S10 weapon, then he would be forced to sacrifice a member of his squad. There is no other way for him to satisfy the requirement of his special weapon. He is not doing it voluntarily. He is doing it because the weapon, which is controlled by the MSS, is requiring him to do so. The only out he has is if there is no one else in the squad and thus he cannot satisfy the weapon's requirement.

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

So now are you arguing that only Psykers are able to cast Psychic Powers?

No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

So now are you arguing that only Psykers are able to cast Psychic Powers?

Well seeing as how psychic powers (generally) require a Warp Charge, and only Psykers generate warp Charges...

If for some reason the psyker has no warp charges can MSS activate the force power?

If not then "force" obviously isn't an attribute of the weapon. It is an attribute of the psyker.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

It doesn't matter whether or not you treat Force as a psychic power (even though the RAW never actually states that it is a psychic power ). You still haven't provided a reason as to why the MSS player can choose to use (activate) Force and the psyker can choose not to expend the charge and take the test. Can you provide a rule in the Force USR that allows the psyker to avoid paying the cost of Force when a decision has been made to activate it?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:
If for some reason the psyker has no warp charges can MSS activate the force power?

If not then "force" obviously isn't an attribute of the weapon. It is an attribute of the psyker.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here as Force is now an actual ability of a weapon, eligible for MSS.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

I think that this is a decent inference to make, and I would tend to agree with you. It's just not relevant to the overall mechanics of Force and MSS.

Choose to activate Force means you must spend a charge and take a psychic test. That is RAW. Can you demonstrate otherwise?

-Yad

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

No, it's not. It's a special rule. See what section it's in?

You're told to roll a Psychic Test. The page reference is to tell you how.
Nothing in the rules calls Force a psychic power.
Your statement means that literally anything requiring a Psychic test is a psychic power.
You sure you want to say that?

Also, it doesn't matter.
Force is a weapon ability - we know that because it's listed under the weapon, not the Psyker.
MSS allows the ability to be activated.
What are the requirements of the Force ability?

The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

Not true. The force ability has requirements that must be met to activate the ability.
An inquisitor can't meet the requirements, hence cannot activate the ability.
There is no Force psychic power. That's a holdover idea from 5th.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

Not true. The force ability has requirements that must be met to activate the ability.
An inquisitor can't meet the requirements, hence cannot activate the ability.
There is no Force psychic power. That's a holdover idea from 5th.

Not at all. It is true in 6th as well.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

Force is a Psychic power because after you take the psychic test and pass you successfully manifest the psychic power.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed from 5th ed.

So it's not a weapon special rule?

That's interesting.

Your still unable to break the rule for MSS which gave us permission to use your weapons Force Special rule.

There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.

The force special rule says the psyker "May choose" to expend a warp charge on a successful wound roll.

All the MSS rule states is that the MSS controller chooses which weapon the opponent uses and then the attacks benefit from all of the bonuses or penalties of the weapon.

Nothing is stopping you from using the force benefit of the weapon without spending a warp charge. It just doesn't have any effect. MSS never gives permission to activate a force weapon by expending a warp charge, that option is strictly up to the psyker "by raw".

Kevlar wrote:
There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.

The force special rule says the psyker "May choose" to expend a warp charge on a successful wound roll.

All the MSS rule states is that the MSS controller chooses which weapon the opponent uses and then the attacks benefit from all of the bonuses or penalties of the weapon.

Nothing is stopping you from using the force benefit of the weapon without spending a warp charge. It just doesn't have any effect. MSS never gives permission to activate a force weapon by expending a warp charge, that option is strictly up to the psyker "by raw".

It says that the psyker may choose to activate it.
MSS forces the activation.

rigeld2 wrote:
There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.
MSS forces the activation.

Please quote me the line where MSS forces the psyker to choose to expend a warp charge.

rigeld2 wrote:
It says that the psyker may choose to activate it.
MSS forces the activation.

MSS does not force the activation.

It only uses the abilities of the weapon. Expending a Warp Charge and Taking a Psychic test is not an ability of the weapon, as the weapon can not do these things.

Thus Force allows a Psyker the ability to cause ID, but Force itself does not cause ID.

Force, without a Psyker does nothing. Force with a non psychic Inquisitor is just an AP3 weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:
So it's not a weapon special rule?

It is a Special Rule of a weapon, albeit one that allows a Psyker to cast a psychic power that makes the wounds inflict Instant Death.

MSS allows me to use the weapons special abilities.
Force is a weapon special ability.
I activate force.
The requirements must be met.
What are the requirements of the Force weapon special ability?
Can anyone answer that question or is it going to be ignored for a third time?

I can't vouch for anybody else, but as for me, I'm going to keep ignoring it

Force does nothing on its own.

It is not comparable to say armor bane.

Force allows a Psyker to cast a psychic power.

if the model wielding the weapon is not a psyker force is useless therefore force is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the Psyker wielding the weapon.


Edit: "What are the requirements of the Force weapon special ability?"

There are no requirements.

Nothing is required to wield a weapon with the Force special rule.

A force weapon requires a psyker to choose to manifest its power, just like any other psychic power.

It only gives the psyker a choice, nothing more.

That's not what I asked.
There aren't any requirements to wield it, no. That's irrelevant.
The activation doesn't cause ID, the Force ability does.
It must be activated.
MSS forces the activation.
Why are you inserting the choice of ignoring that activation?

MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

No, that would not be true.
A non psyker cannot meet the requirements of a) spending a warp charge and b) making a psychic test. Therefore a non-psyker cannot activate Force.
MSS forces the activation and therefore the requirements must be met (if possible).

 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

The first line of your post Death made me face palm. In order to activate the weapons Special Rules for Force, you must look up the rules for Force. Not every Psyker model has the weapon mind you.

When you get down to the rules for Force as it is written, it can make you use a charge, and make you take a Psychic test, and activate the Force rule for the weapon.

If your going to argue the Psyker gets to choose, if I get MSS to work, that model for all intensive purposes is mine with the express limits to his strength, weapon choice, and the weapons Special rules. I get to make any decision for that model in that combat. I will activate its Force weapon, and as the rule calls for the Psyker to choose to invest the point, I will choose to expend the point (should the model have one) as the rule on the weapon calls out for.

You dont get to decide, I do as Im the one activating the rule.






Now, to the biggest hamper in the argument. This is moot against non-character models with Force weapons as they would rather cast Hammer Hand in that combat or will have spent the one point for non Grey Knight armies in the Shooting Phase.

Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?
Note that that's different from saying MSS can activate Force but the Psyker can choose not to meet the requirements (which is what I thought you to be arguing until now).

The weapon has an ability. MSS forces that ability to be used. Where's your ability to say loljk not going to activate that coming from?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?

Sort of, as Force does nothing when wielded by a non-psyker.

That solidifies that the force activation is an ability of the psyker (Albeit one granted by the weapon to the psyker), and the activation is not an ability of the weapon itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?

Sort of, as Force does nothing when wielded by a non-psyker.

That solidifies that the force ability activation is on the psyker, and the activation is not an ability of the weapon.

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.

You cannot force the model to expend the charge. You can use the special property of the weapon as much as you like, it simply doesn't do anything without the model wielding the weapon choosing to expend the charge.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.

You cannot force the model to expend the charge. You can use the special property of the weapon as much as you like, it simply doesn't do anything without the model wielding the weapon choosing to expend the charge.

The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

I rather think Death nailed it a few posts back "can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?"

rigeld2 wrote:
The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

Because the weapon, in the hands of a non Psyker does not activate.

So the Warp Charge expenditure and LD test are not an ability of the weapon.

MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

Because the weapon, in the hands of a non Psyker does not activate.

So the Warp Charge expenditure and LD test are not an ability of the weapon.

MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

You're separating the Force ability out to some half psychic power half weapon ability. On what basis?
The expenditure and LD test are not a weapon ability, I've never claimed that they are.
They are required, however, when the Force ability is activated.

And you keep bringing up non-Psykers like its a relevant example. It's not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

No, that would not be true.
A non psyker cannot meet the requirements of a) spending a warp charge and b) making a psychic test. Therefore a non-psyker cannot activate Force.
MSS forces the activation and therefore the requirements must be met (if possible).

That is true, a non psyker or a psyker with no remaining warp charges can wield a force weapon the same way a psyker who chooses not to expend a warp charge does.

The force USR still works, as a power weapon of whatever type it is (axe, sword, mace). The MSS rule doesn't affect this. The psyker can choose or not choose to activate the instant death part of the force USR. That is what the force USR states.

NOTHING in the MSS rule forces the wielder of a force weapon to expend a warp charge.

Kevlar wrote:
The force USR still works, as a power weapon of whatever type it is (axe, sword, mace). The MSS rule doesn't affect this. The psyker can choose or not choose to activate the instant death part of the force USR. That is what the force USR states.

There's no "instant death part of the force USR". It's a weapon special ability. MSS is expressly permitted to use weapon special abilities.
You can't activate Force and then "oh, nm, I've decided not to".

NOTHING in the MSS rule forces the wielder of a force weapon to expend a warp charge.

You're right. That part is in the Force rule.

On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.

So the Force USR states that the psyker can activate 'it'. 'It' in that case being the force weapon. Ergo, 'Force' is a property of the weapon itself, not something intrinsic to any given psyker in 6th ed.

So under normal circumstances the psyker can choose to:

1) Activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.
2) Not activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.

And under Mind-Shackled circumstances the psyker can (has to) choose to:

1) Activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.

As an essential part of following option 1)? The Psyker is required (as in, this is 'not' optional) to "...activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..." (as per the 'Force' USR)

So, some thoughts on the above:
A) There is no possible way for the psyker to activate the force property on his or her weapon without expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test. It is all one rule; the latter half of which is 'not' voluntary if the 'activate force property' action is selected for any reason.
B) The player controlling the necron model with Mind Shackle Scarabs can 'force' a model to activate any of its' weapons' properties.
C) This happens regardless of wether or not such is beneficial or detrimental to the effected model or wether or not additional costs must be paid other than the declaration of intent to use the weapon ability.
D) Mindshackle scarabs cannot 'force' a model to pay a cost for activating an ability which is impossible. (in this case if the warp charge is already spent earlier and the psyker does not have another one available)

 DeathReaper wrote:
On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.

This logic goes circular. Note though the out point is the fact that my model with MSS isnt the model with Force. What does your Force rule tell you to do (cause at this point, its not my model sir, its yours with me in the pilots seat)?


RAW for the rule of Force mandates that your model expend the charge (if it has it) and take the test. Again, this isnt my rule Im following, its yours. I point back to General vs Specific at this point. The rules for Force are listed as a USR; More specific than my models MSS rule. Even though my rule normally doesnt grant me the ability to make you take a Psychic test or even expend a point, this one does and I have been given access to the more specific rule.

The model may expend a warp charge to activate the ability of its weapon if it so chooses, the ability cant activate without that first step. You can use the special rule but only if you can supply your own charge, the target psyker is under 0 obligation to do so on your behalf.

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that mindshackle scarabs 'forces' you to activate the weapons properties at the sole discretion of the necron player?

You do not appear to get to decide 'not' to use a given weapon property (in this case 'force', but we could just as easily be discussing a weapon which has some other optional effect) just because you feel that other rules apply to it. (or any other reason short of 'it's impossible to do so' so far as i am aware).

'forces' you to activate the weapons properties at the sole discretion of the necron player?

MSS - "There are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

What the rule states and what you claim it states are quite different.

You may want to include more of the MSS rules text than your quote there. Allow me: "...These are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.

 DeathReaper wrote:
On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.

You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus. Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon? What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.

Which is irrevocably flawed. It truly doesn't matter whether Force is defined as a psychic power or not. All that matters is that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the weapon. I would be very surprised if anyone in this thread disputed that. If so, I would be very interested in your reasoning.

Once you accept that the MSS controller can force the bearer of the Force Weapon to use the Force ability of that weapon, you must follow the rules for the Force USR (pg.37). This means that the decision to use the Force ability has, at this point, been made. So to satisfy this, you must spend a charge and take a test. There is no way to decouple the decision to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test. It simply can't be done.

All this talk about the psyker being able to choose to spend a point is just nonsense. All the psyker can do, in the normal course of play, is to choose whether or not to use the Force ability. If he chooses to do so, he must spend a charge and take a test. All the MSS does is supplant the choice the psyker has to use Force with that of the MSS controller. You still must spend a charge and take a test if the MSS controller chooses to activate the Force ability of the weapon.

-Yad

Lt.Soundwave wrote:which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.

Which quote are you referring to? Is it the one where he erroniously indicates that activation of the 'Force' USR for any reason would not in turn 'force' the psyker to expend a Warp Charge (if he or she has one) and take a leadership test?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I rather think Death nailed it a few posts back "can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?"

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? The Force USR is now a special rule that a weapon can have (i.e., weapon ability, weapon property, etc). MSS explicitly allows you to use any weapon special rule of the affected model. MSS never directly forces the affected model to take a psychic test and expend a charge. The Force USR does that.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus.

Not at all, as force is a psychic power.

Yad wrote:
Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon?

If the psyker chooses to activate it he follows the instructions.

Yad wrote:
What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

MSS do not choose to use the force ability, they can not, as Force does nothing unless the Psyker immediately chooses to activate it by
expending a Warp Charge point and takes a Psychic test (see page 67).

As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

DeathReaper wrote:And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

This is where you are making an error in logic:

The choice the Psyker can make is wether to (or not, normally) activate the force property of his weapon. If he does activate it (or is forced to) the player of the psyker then has to follow the rules for the Force USR which Require the psykers' player to expend a warp charge and makes a leadership check on it's behalf.

There is no possible rules-legal way for the Force property of the weapon to be activated without following the rules for the Force USR which require the warp charge expenditure and leadership check. None.

Except that, as I have shown, the expenditure of a Warp Charge point, and taking a psychic test IS NOT an ability of the force weapon.

As I have shown because a Force weapon in the hands of a non-psychic inquisitor can not use the force ability. Therefore Force only grants the Psyker a choice to cast the Psychic power. MSS can not cast a psychic power of the model it only benefits from the weapons abilities.

Remember you only "benefit from any abilities... from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

You get a choice of which weapon to use, and you use all of the Weapons abilities.

But taking a psychic test and expending a Warp Charge point are not amongst the Weapons abilities.

Sadly you have not actually proven that from what i can tell. To activate the 'Force' USR on the weapon requires a Warp Charge and a Leadership check to be made on behalf of the model with the force weapon being activated. Just because a (non-psyker) inquisitor can get his grubby inquisitorial mittens on a force weapon without the necessary warp charges to activate it does not mean that a model that actually 'has' warp charges cannot do so.

I realise you may be tired of hearing this: but the Necron model in this scenario is not the one that is being chosen to activate the force weapon nor paying the costs to do so. The MSS-ed psyker is. The only thing that the MSS wargear is doing in this case (that is relevant to your comment) is allowing the Necron player to make the choice to activate the weapon or not rather than the Psyker-owning player deciding wether or not to do so.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus.

Not at all, as force is a psychic power.

Which, if one were to actually accept that Force is a psychic power, is irrelevant for the purposes of MSS acting upon it. The Force USR also doesn't say that it's a psychic power. Which makes me curious, are there any 6th edition BRB psychic powers, outside of the actual psychic power section in the back of the book, that say they are a psychic power?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon?

If the psyker chooses to activate it he follows the instructions.

Yes, and if the psyker is affected by MSS the ability of the psyker to choose to activate Force is supplanted by the MSS player.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

MSS do not choose to use the force ability, they can not, as Force does nothing unless the Psyker immediately chooses to activate it by
expending a Warp Charge point and takes a Psychic test (see page 67).

Then you must be reading a different rulebook then me. Cause when I turn to the special rules section and read the Force entry on pg.37 (I think) I see the rules for the Force USR. Does not the MSS rule allow the Necron player to use any special rule that the affected model's weapon(s) may have? Force is a special rule for a force weapon, thus eligible for MSS. Surely you can see how that works, yes?

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

Again, you make the same mistake. The psyker is choosing to activate Force when they score an unsaved wound with the Force weapon. That's all they are choosing to do. Score an unsaved wound...activate Force. The choice to activate Force then necessitates an expenditure of a warp charge and a successful psychic test.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

-Yad

It is kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me that you can not see that all force does is allow the psyker wielding the weapon access to the Psychic power held within.

 Neorealist wrote:
I realise you may be tired of hearing this: but the Necron model in this scenario is not the one that is being chosen to activate the force weapon nor paying the costs to do so. The MSS-ed psyker is. The only thing that the MSS wargear is doing in this case (that is relevant to your comment) is allowing the Necron player to make the choice to activate the weapon or not rather than the Psyker-owning player deciding wether or not to do so.

No actually the Necron player does not have a choice, he will "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

He only has a choice between close combat weapons if there is a choice.

you always use the abilities and penalties from the CCW.

Sadly you do not have the choice to activate the force weapon, nowhere in the MSS rules gives you that permission.

Wait, I just realized something. we are looking at this all wrong. MSS benefits from any abilities the weapon has. Force is not an ability. It is a special rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

-Yad

It is kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me that you can not see that all force does is allow the psyker wielding the weapon access to the Psychic power held within.

Let's assume for the moment that I accept that Force is a psychic power even though the RAW doesn't label it as such. Why does that matter? How are Force Weapon entries in the BRB tied to the Force USR? Force is not intrinsic to the wielder, it's an ability of the weapon. Choosing to use the Force USR causes the wielder to expend a charge and take a test. I think you'll agree that MSS lets you use any ability of the weapon. Why do you have a problem with the MSS player choosing to activate Force on behalf of the wielder, just like any other ability that can be activated/used?

You seem to have this mindset that because the Force USR is a psychic power it cannot be an ability of the weapon because the psyker needs to choose to use a charge and take a test. That reasoning fails because:

A.) The psyker isn't choosing to spend a charge and take a test. The psyker is choosing, per the Force rules, to activate Force when one or more unsaved wounds are made.
B.) Force is never labeled, per the Force rules themselves, as a psychic power.
C.) The Force USR is an ability of the weapon, not the psyker. The Force USR is never applied directly to the psyker. Force, and all its rules therein, are applied to the weapon. As such it can be affected by MSS.

-Yad

Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

What choice does the Force ability offer, other than wether or not to activate it? Do you think the psychic test and warp charge expenditure are optional for some reason?

Gentlemen, the anti Force side wins.

Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8, the rules for Force state within it 'he'; In this case referencing the Psyker model itself and due in part to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, the owning player chooses in this case.


The owner would be silly to activate it of course, but that clears this up. No Force for the Necrons. :3

The more specific codex rule for Mindshackle Scarabs trumps the general 'Controlling Player vs Opposing Player' rule on page 8. if it didn't? MSS wouldn't do anything at all (let alone force an activation of the force USR).

No sir, you misunderstand. MSS gives us access to Strength, Weapon choice (which trumps the Player rule), and Special rules. RAW states that the 'he' (the Psyker) chooses to expend the point. MSS did not give us permission to make choices in USRs, only to choose to use them. If a choice comes up in one of those rules where the model chooses to do x. Its still on the Player that owns the model to choose in that instance as the rule reads for the model to make the choice which defers us back to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player.

The power of the choice to expend the charge is still outside the scope of what MSS allows us to do as it has outlined what we have permission to do. We sure do have access to the rule, but again, the rule calls for the model owner to choose and thats something that MSS doesnt let us control.

MSS gives access to the ability. Saying that the psyker gets to choose is denying access to the ability.

Bottom line, Is it his model or our model?

Xzerios wrote:
Bottom line, Is it his model or our model?

It's the opponents.
But the MSS has control of it - as the rule says. If the charge+LD is a requirement of activation, MSS can force it.
If the charge+LD is a psychic bower that Force creates and that's what causes ID, despite the lack of clear language saying so and only an inference to say it is, then MSS cannot use the Force ability.

Bottom line.

No. The RAW for MSS only gives the MSS model permission to activate Special rules attached to the weapon of the target model. RAW in this case, this Special rule calls for the Psyker model to choose to invest the point. We are not the owner of the model and RAW at that point the owner chooses, merely controlling it for D3 Attacks at its own Strength and Special rules and penalties that the weapon we choose confers to the model.

Its the wording of the rules for Force that disallows us to activate it. Had the word 'he' been written as 'attacker'; It could then be swung to MSS favor as it us attacking with that model.

I suspect you may be making the same logical mistake as deathreaper did earlier: Once the Force USR itself has been used as a weapon property it does not offer a subsequent 'choice' to expend the warp charge and make the leadership check; those are 'required' as a result of choosing to activate the Force USR.

In other words if the MSS controller chooses to have the psyker activate his or her force weapon (which as a weapon ability they are explicitly allowed to do via the intervention of MSS) the psyker then 'has' to do all the other stuff the Force USR requires. They can not and may not skip any of it unless it's impossible to do (for example if they (the MSS-ed model) does not have a warp charge for some reason).

The only problem is that the choice to expend the charge is the owner of the model as the rule for Force is written.

Dont get me wrong, we can still choose to 'activate' Force weaponry, but when it comes time to expend the Warp Charge point, the way the rule for Force is written, its the owner of the models choice. MSS does not allow us to change the way the rule is written to satisfy its own requirements.

Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.

 Neorealist wrote:
Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.

Completely correct, but the word 'he' in the sentence for choosing to activate it reads to the model itself. In this case, the owner of the model gets to choose whether or not to spend the point. The confusion that comes from the pro-MSS side is that it is our MSS model that is the 'he', yet it is in fact not the noun the sentence is directed at.

See what Im saying?

I do see what you are saying. I just believe that MSS temporarily changes the person who gets to make weapon activation decisions for the 'he' mentioned in the rules text from the Psykers' player to the Necron player.

The reason i believe this is because MSS explicitly allows one to choose which weapon abilities to use if there is a choice involved in doing so.

And as I pointed out earlier, Force is a special rule, not an ability of the weapon.

Yup, and I lol-ed then too.

Happyjew wrote:
And as I pointed out earlier, Force is a special rule, not an ability of the weapon.

Thats pretty obvious, but RAW is the only reason your correct. MSS doesnt change ownership of the model. Just in this combat are we allowed to attack with it for the outlined material by MSS. As the rule for Force calls out, its the models choice with the word 'he' and the rule for Controlling Player vs Opposing Player states that any time a choice is to be made by a model, its the owner of the models choice; Not ours.

I said that on Page 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

Rules and page numbers next time then! Haha

Yea, I did not even think to check the rules about Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8.

I knew I had read something to that effect, but could not figure out where it came from.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test. If so you're wrong. The choice is about whether or not to activate Force when you score an unsaved wound with a weapon that has access to the Force USR. If you choose to activate Force you are then directed to, per the Force USR rule, use a warp charge and take a psychic test.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:
Gentlemen, the anti Force side wins.

Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8, the rules for Force state within it 'he'; In this case referencing the Psyker model itself and due in part to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, the owning player chooses in this case.


The owner would be silly to activate it of course, but that clears this up. No Force for the Necrons. :3

Not quite. The MSS rules overrule the general rule about Controlling vs. Opposing player actions.

-Yad


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Xzerios wrote:
... RAW states that the 'he' (the Psyker) chooses to expend the point. MSS did not give us permission to make choices in USRs, only to choose to use them. If a choice comes up in one of those rules where the model chooses to do x. Its still on the Player that owns the model to choose in that instance as the rule reads for the model to make the choice which defers us back to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player.

Part of what you're getting wrong here is the assumption that the psyker is choosing to spend a warp charge. That's not the choice being made. As I stated earlier, the choice being made is about whether or not to activate Force. If yes, then spend charge and take test.

Xzerios wrote:
The power of the choice to expend the charge is still outside the scope of what MSS allows us to do as it has outlined what we have permission to do. We sure do have access to the rule, but again, the rule calls for the model owner to choose and thats something that MSS doesnt let us control.

I agree that the ability to force the psyker to directly spend the warp charge is beyond the capabilities of MSS. You're making a mistake though in thinking that is how Force works and how MSS interacts with it. You can't say that MSS has access to the Force rule, but then cannot 'force' the bearer to satisfy the activation requirements. The act of choosing to use the Force USR necessitates a warp charge and a psychic test. I repeat it until someone can prove otherwise... Can you demonstrate, within the rules for the Force USR, the capability to activate Force and not have to pay the charge and take a psychic test? If so, then I would agree with you. Obviously I don't think it's possible, but I'd like to see your reasoning.

-Yad



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Xzerios wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.

Completely correct, but the word 'he' in the sentence for choosing to activate it reads to the model itself. In this case, the owner of the model gets to choose whether or not to spend the point. The confusion that comes from the pro-MSS side is that it is our MSS model that is the 'he', yet it is in fact not the noun the sentence is directed at.

See what Im saying?

Yeah, I see what you're saying...it's just plain wrong though. You've accepted that the only choice made is whether or not to activate Force. There is no other choice allowed within the actual rules for Force. In the normal course of play the psyker would be in the driver's seat choosing whether or not to activate. However, when the psyker is affected by MSS that choice is removed from the psyker and given to the MSS controller. Should the MSS controller then choose to activate you must follow the activate rules for Force. Which you've already agreed that there is no choice about.

-Yad


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 DeathReaper wrote:
I said that on Page 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

And you were just as wrong then as you are now

The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so. MSS does allow the MSS controller to activate Force.

Yes, the psyker would then need to take the test.

Which is something that the Force rule requires to have happen should the MSS controller choose to activate Force.

-Yad