I think they could have made Flayed Ones viable by making any ONE of these simple changes, which makes me believe they meant to do one of these things, but somehow forgot. Maybe they had a yellow sticky note on that page in the draft, and it fell out or something.

1. Flayed Ones are Fearless.

2. Flayed Ones are Troops. (Or even, Flayed Ones are troops if you take Immotek. Or even a Destroyer Lord or something.)

3. Flayed Ones can assault the turn they Deep Strike.

4. Flayed Ones have AP3 weapons.

5. Flayed Ones have Rending (meh.)

6. Flayed Ones cost 2 points less per model.

Just one of those things, I would use flayed ones. I really would.

Or they could have given them special rules with the 6th Edition FAQ like Fear(which they had in the 3rd edition book. I think it also would have made sense to have given them Entropic strike, which is basically the 5th edition version of Disruption fields, something both Scarabs and Flayed Ones used in the 3rd edition book.

If Flayed ones had Zealot, they would be perfect.

Or simply Preferred Enemy (Everything!) like the destroyers. That would have helped a ton too. Ah well. I might try being really tricky with the Blood Swarm rule for Immotek and run 3 5man squads to disrupt the backfield if I can. Seems like having 5 MEQ bodies show up unnannounced here or there could make the game go poorly for some armies. I dunno.

 Brymm wrote:
Or simply Preferred Enemy (Everything!) like the destroyers. That would have helped a ton too. Ah well. I might try being really tricky with the Blood Swarm rule for Immotek and run 3 5man squads to disrupt the backfield if I can. Seems like having 5 MEQ bodies show up unnannounced here or there could make the game go poorly for some armies. I dunno.

Well, the Preferred enemy would only help for 1's in Close combat, since they have no shooting. Zealot gives them rerolls to all missed close combat attacks in the first round, and Fearless.

Flayed ones really aren't a MEQ either, since they don't have a 3+ save.

Zealot, while fitting the needed mechanics perfectly, wouldn't make sense from a fluff perspective.
Just looking at them, though, the best fits would have been either:
-Fearless (because they're crazy)
-Fear (they're covered in blood and skin... that's a little unnerving)
-Rending (giant knives for fingers, duh)

Assaulting after deep striking would be great, but there's no way in hell GW would give them something THAT good.

Available as troop choice with Imotekh would have made sense, too.

I guess GW has just decided they don't want people buying/using Flayed Ones anymore... why else would they make them expensive, ugly, and give them gakky rules?

I suppose I'll chime in with the FO talk a bit. I really need setup a FO blog so I can just link to the talking points when this discussion comes up .

I've used a large group of Flayed Ones (15 to 20) in the my main army since the new dex dropped, and have had 20 metals since the old Dex dropped. I completely empathize with the disdain for the newer, expensive, FC models, however I love the metals, FWIW.

Anyway, needless to say in a year and 3 months I've seen them go up against just about anything, and outside of deathstars their is a very short list of units actually taken regularly in this game that wants to tangle with a large group of Flayed Ones in CC especially if you have a DLord around.

The number one role I think they play better then anything in the codex is area denial. The reason I think they shine in this role is they are resilient, can handle themselves in CC, can threaten most things in the game, and can be deployed virtually anywhere you need them most. Also, you can get a large squad for a relatively cheap (points wise), 195 to 260 (compared to say, LG, which can quickly jump into the 400 point range). Punisher mentioned Warriors, however Warriors, even a large squad, can be taken out by a stiff breeze in CC, unless you've invested in a bunch of points in Phaeron and CC RC/Overlord/etc. Also, you'll have to drop another 100+ to get the Warriors out of your deployment zone in any expedited fashion. Now, Warriors can score, but FOs can deny. It would be nice if they could score, sure, but I really think people make out way to big of a deal with this. I've seen very successful Necron lists who the extent of their scoring was 4x5 Warriors and that's it. As long as your scoring needs are taken care of elsewhere, it just seems like a non issue for me.

FOs take their transport with them, so to speak. The most common opponents of FOs I have noticed are people who never use Infiltrate, DS, or Outflank to begin with. If you're not comfortable with those mechanics, and finding ways to exploit your enemy's weaknesses using those mechanics, then you'll understandably be disappointed in the FOs as a decent chunk of their point cost goes to their deployment options. Basically, when using them, you find the weakest (relative to your opponent) spot on the board, and you deploy them their and either let your opponent come to you or have them sacrifice a large piece of tactical real estate.

Of course their other roles is a disruption unit to send after HS. I've seen many use a small group for this task. You can also use them defensively to screen Warriors/Immortals against CC, although I only do that if the opponent has a rather dedicated to CC army.

A couple of things people tend to overlook/not consider until they've seen them in action quit a few times:

1.) BSS (from Imo) will effect your opponents deployment even when you have no intention of using them as such. I've seen opponents make all sorts of silly errors trying to protect/minimize the effects of BSS.

2.) They aren't fearless (which is definitely their Achilles, no argument there) , but they do have LD 10. Against shooting that tends to be all you need. And really, in a large squad, against assaults its generally all you need as well. A group of 20 FOs could lose 5 models against a MEQ opponent, will strike back and kill about 4, and then have to pass a 9 or under to not break (83.3%). Of course if the DLord is there you have a greater margin of error to deal with.

3.) Point for point, provided they don't break after the first round, FOs will kill TH/SS termies. Most of the Crons CC options aren't particular great against TH/SS, FOs actually are, winning about 70% of the time, and when they do win (ie, didn't break) they generally win big (only losing a few bases).

4.) They're a little faster then people think, because of the mechanics of RP. This has been reduced a bit because of the closest to closest mechanics of 6th edition, but still will regularly by you an inch or so which can really throw off your opponent if they aren't thinking about it.

5.) Be a non conformist and buck the interweb hive mind!

6.) They crush transports in CC. You need about 7 bases to kill any AV10 rear vehicle (on average), 10 for a multi-assault.

7.) If you have a small squad, or a squad that has been whittled down, don't be afraid to throw them at a shooting based Naught. They won't hurt it, but they will lock it down, and it won't hurt them either (your typical shooty dread averages about half a FO base/turn in CC).

A small note on DLord tactics. My list includes a full squad of Wraiths, TPs, FOs, and a brick of Warriors with Imo. When I say FOs+Dlord, it is just one of the many options the DLord has available to him. I mentioned this earlier, but generally I deploy him with the TPs as his initial escort, but he (and his crew) does get shot at, and is commonly looking to pick up new running mates around turn 3 or 4. That's why I love having a DLord with a rezzy, as I have 3 units they suddenly become much stronger when he's around, leaving me the flexibility to move him to the one that is in best position to make a difference in any given round (plus the Wraiths of course, although they don't get no Rezzy love).

You disregard the fact that including a D. lord attached to the squad takes away half of their deployment option and the other 1 quarter(DS) is nerfed by the size and cost of the squad, if it mishaps you lose. Also, Outflanking them or DS them puts them out of the game for a minimum of 2 turns(barring Phased reinforcements), in which you can get shot at before landing a single attack, and generally in range of allot of enemy weapons, or enemy charge range. 6th edition neutered their one use which was a lucky outflank charge. They are now the most useless turn three unit in the game. An Obyron Imotekh combo can make the squad better but not by much and the cost is unsupportable.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You disregard the fact that including a D. lord attached to the squad takes away half of their deployment option and the other 1 quarter(DS) is nerfed by the size and cost of the squad, if it mishaps you lose.

Um..."generally I deploy him [the DLord] with the TPs as his initial escort," so... >?<

Also, Outflanking them or DS them puts them out of the game for a minimum of 2 turns(barring Phased reinforcements),

If their primary role in a mission is to take away an objective, the fewer turns they can be shot at, the better. So really, this isn't a negative at all.

in which you can get shot at before landing a single attack, and generally in range of allot of enemy weapons, or enemy charge range.

Please tell me a way you can deploy any CC unit in the entire game where it can't get shot at first (except for Heroic Intervention of course). Every unit can get shot at at any time, regardless of how you deploy them (barring LOS). If you deploy a CC unit in your deployment zone, it can get shot at. If you DS it, it can get shot at. If you Infiltrate it, it can get shot at. Outflanking too. DSing/Outflanking in respect to getting shot at only serves to minimize how many turns they will be shot at. Seriously, it baffles me that people don't understand such a basic concept.

6th edition neutered their one use which was a lucky outflank charge.

You mean they lost their ability to DS/Infilitrate all of a sudden? Damn, missed that FAQ.

They are now the most useless turn three unit in the game. An Obyron Imotekh combo can make the squad better but not by much and the cost is unsupportable.

Way to ignore every point and go straight for the unsubstantiated superlative. /sigh.

I think there's not a bad unit in the necron codex as flayed ones have a complete lack of shiny model syndrome so they are either going to be ignored, which means they get to sow chaos in your enemies back lines by killing heavy support squads like long fangs, broadsides, lootas, ig heavy weapon teams etc...

Which means all your shiny models get to live because ether are not obliterated by heavy weapons. OR on the reverse your opponent tries to kill a blob of in cover ( you best put them in cover with the resurgence of HBs) which with RP is going to take awhile. They may get assaulted oh noes one might say but if they stay they are going to do a lot more damage then a warrior blob in assault. If they die oh well you took a chunk of your opponents army and stalled it for a turn. This still gives you precious time to get your heavy hitters where they need to be and kill the big guns.

From what I see use them just as they do in the fluff, they are a distraction for the enemy nothing more nothing less. Make them cheap but keep their numbers up and hope they take away an advantage your enemy has. And infiltrate them to avoid the risk of those pesky mishaps

Also as a side note, the models, to be frank and to the point, god awful. I'm going to kit bash them to look like necron pirates to add to my legion of doom.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You disregard the fact that including a D. lord attached to the squad takes away half of their deployment option and the other 1 quarter(DS) is nerfed by the size and cost of the squad, if it mishaps you lose.

Um..."generally I deploy him [the DLord] with the TPs as his initial escort," so... >?<

Also, Outflanking them or DS them puts them out of the game for a minimum of 2 turns(barring Phased reinforcements),

If their primary role in a mission is to take away an objective, the fewer turns they can be shot at, the better. So really, this isn't a negative at all.

in which you can get shot at before landing a single attack, and generally in range of allot of enemy weapons, or enemy charge range.

Please tell me a way you can deploy any CC unit in the entire game where it can't get shot at first (except for Heroic Intervention of course). Every unit can get shot at at any time, regardless of how you deploy them (barring LOS). If you deploy a CC unit in your deployment zone, it can get shot at. If you DS it, it can get shot at. If you Infiltrate it, it can get shot at. Outflanking too. DSing/Outflanking in respect to getting shot at only serves to minimize how many turns they will be shot at. Seriously, it baffles me that people don't understand such a basic concept.

6th edition neutered their one use which was a lucky outflank charge.

You mean they lost their ability to DS/Infilitrate all of a sudden? Damn, missed that FAQ.

They are now the most useless turn three unit in the game. An Obyron Imotekh combo can make the squad better but not by much and the cost is unsupportable.

Way to ignore every point and go straight for the unsubstantiated superlative. /sigh.

And everything you have suggested, a identical sized squad of Warriors could do better, used ranged weaponry, and are scoring. DS warriors, they can shot. Escort D. Lord, they can advance and shot and have preferred enemy, you can even tak on a Pheaeron lord so they can assault afterward. Why DS Flayed Ones and a D. Lord when you can load 13 in a Night Scythe with him and it would be cheaper than 20 Failed Ones. There is really only a few situations that Warriors aren't on par with the Flayed Ones, at worst. It must be their base 2 attacks and lack of ranged weapons that seal the deal for you.

And everything you have suggested, a identical sized squad of Warriors could do better, used ranged weaponry, and are scoring. DS warriors, they can shot. Escort D. Lord, they can advance and shot and have preferred enemy, you can even tak on a Pheaeron lord so they can assault afterward. Why DS Flayed Ones and a D. Lord when you can load 13 in a Night Scythe with him and it would be cheaper than 20 Failed Ones. There is really only a few situations that Warriors aren't on par with the Flayed Ones, at worst. It must be their base 2 attacks and lack of ranged weapons that seal the deal for you.

text removed.
Reds8n

... @ShadarLogoth, did you ever post the battle reports people had been asking for when you first started trying to defend Flayed Ones?
I think people might be a little more willing to accept your claims if they could see evidence of FO in action (so to speak).

Frankly, of the times I've seen them used, nothing stood out to me about them that I couldn't see another unit pulling off better...

Whoops, I guess I was being a little to flippant, got Mod smacked.

Flayed Ones have 3 attacks, and don't require additional investment to get them anywhere. If you stick Warriors in your opponents face they will die quite quickly in CC. Flayed Ones, baring bad die rolls, not so much.


@Skoffs You're probably right, I've simply haven't had the time or inclination. I have had several people tell me they took my advice and after a few games generally agree with my sentiment though. In the end, personal experience is the only thing that is going to sway most people.

Additional attacks do not make FO more resilent in battle, I don't see where this comes from....they got more attacks, but Warriors have Rapid Fire weapons that allow them to get more losses before the fight, sometimes even stopping the entire assault at once.

Mathhammer.

10 FO have 30 attacks. 4+ to hit vs. MEQ, thus 15 hits. 4+ to wound, thus 7.5 wounds. MEQ got a 3+ thus 2.5 actual losses. In a vacuum. Realistically, you will need 15-20 FO in a squad. They will be shot at for at least one turn thus lose out on a few members. Let's be generous and say that 5 of them die, plus 1-2 due to Overwatch. A squad of 20 FO will now be reduced to 13 FO already. In cc, the enemy gets to strike first. tac got 10 attacks each, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 losses, thus about 12 FO will strike back and cause ~3 losses. They will win combat, yet not achieve anything due to ATSKNF. They will mostly spend the rest of the game hunting a squad of tac...and I don't really see the value here.

The thing is: why would I want to take FO? Every pick is supposed to fit a certain role and FO do not seem to fill any of those I can think of. Quickly deny stuff? Wraiths / skimmers. CC power? Wraiths. Tarpit? Scarabs.

Do not compare FO, a cc troop, to Warriors.

Additional attacks do not make FO more resilent in battle, I don't see where this comes from....they got more attacks, but Warriors have Rapid Fire weapons that allow them to get more losses before the fight, sometimes even stopping the entire assault at once.

Really? The more damage you do in CC, the less chance you have of getting rolled in CC. Plus, you do damage in CC, instead of whirling your Gauss Flayer around.

Let's be generous and say that 5 of them die, plus 1-2 due to Overwatch.

Be generous? That's ~45 Bolter shots into the Flayed Ones. So unless your standing in rapid fire range (and begging to be assaulted) that's 45 Tactical Marines you just poored into one unit. There is a hole lot of opportunity costs there. For the record, it takes a lot more firepower/point to kill FOs then it does Wraiths or TPs, so any shots pored into them are basically free cheap wounds for your harder hitters.

And a 10 man Tac squad averages .83 to .94 dead, not 1 to 2 (to Overwatch).

Oh, and how come the Tactical squad's friends get to shoot at the FOs but the FOs friends are just leaving them out to dry?

A squad of 20 FO will now be reduced to 13 FO already . In cc, the enemy gets to strike first. tac got 10 attacks each, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 losses, thus about 12 FO will strike back and cause ~3 losses. They will win combat, yet not achieve anything due to ATSKNF. They will mostly spend the rest of the game hunting a squad of tac...and I don't really see the value here.

Again, not likely, without over committing to the FOs (and not killing the Wraiths/TPs/etc). You way overestimated the Overwatch, and then robbed the Flayed Ones of their extra attack for charging?

It's more like 14 FOs make it into combat (assuming you do pore enough shots in them to kill 5, and the Necron army shoots nothing at your Tacs), they lose 1.25, then swing with 52(1÷2)(1÷2)(1÷3)=4.33. Now you've got 6 on 13(+RP), and the Tacs will be dead by the Necrons next CC phase. So you'll lose maybe 3 FOs to kill 10 Tac Marines. 39 points to kill 150 to 200 points. Seems like a good trade to me.

The thing is: why would I want to take FO? Every pick is supposed to fit a certain role and FO do not seem to fill any of those I can think of. Quickly deny stuff? Wraiths / skimmers. CC power? Wraiths. Tarpit? Scarabs.

They're a big, resilient, area denial unit that can handle itself in CC. The only thing comparable (in terms of this role) are Scarabs, which aren't as resilient, can't DS, Infiltrate or Outflank, and come from a crammed FA slot.

Do not compare FO, a cc troop, to Warriors.

I tend to agree, though they cost the same so people will make the natural juxtaposition.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Additional attacks do not make FO more resilent in battle, I don't see where this comes from....they got more attacks, but Warriors have Rapid Fire weapons that allow them to get more losses before the fight, sometimes even stopping the entire assault at once.

Really? The more damage you do in CC, the less chance you have of getting rolled in CC. Plus, you do damage in CC, instead of whirling your Gauss Flayer around.

Uhm, "whirling your Gauss Flayer around" means 20-40 S4 shots in the enemy's face, not counting Overwatch.

Let's be generous and say that 5 of them die, plus 1-2 due to Overwatch.

Be generous? That's ~45 Bolter shots into the Flayed Ones. So unless your standing in rapid fire range (and begging to be assaulted) that's 45 Tactical Marines you just poored into one unit. There is a hole lot of opportunity costs there. For the record, it takes a lot more firepower/point to kill FOs then it does Wraiths or TPs, so any shots pored into them are basically free cheap wounds for your harder hitters.

I averaged it. Let them get shot by template weapons and they'll fall like flies whereas vs. weak bolters, they are more resilant.

And a 10 man Tac squad averages .83 to .94 dead, not 1 to 2 (to Overwatch).

Oh, and how come the Tactical squad's friends get to shoot at the FOs but the FOs friends are just leaving them out to dry?

FO are right into the enemy's troops, Necrons have 24'' effective range. That's why.

Again, not likely, without over committing to the FOs (and not killing the Wraiths/TPs/etc). You way overestimated the Overwatch, and then robbed the Flayed Ones of their extra attack for charging?

I gave neither side the bonus attacks for charging because they could be charged themselves just as well.

It's more like 14 FOs make it into combat (assuming you do pore enough shots in them to kill 5, and the Necron army shoots nothing at your Tacs), they lose 1.25, then swing with 52(1÷2)(1÷2)(1÷3)=4.33. Now you've got 6 on 13(+RP), and the Tacs will be dead by the Necrons next CC phase. So you'll lose maybe 3 FOs to kill 10 Tac Marines. 39 points to kill 150 to 200 points. Seems like a good trade to me.

You spent 20x13 = 260 points for a cc unit to kill a 150 enemy non-cc unit in 3 turns. I do not see how this is an effective use of points. I also did not calculate the power weapon seargant in.

They're a big, resilient, area denial unit that can handle itself in CC. The only thing comparable (in terms of this role) are Scarabs, which aren't as resilient, can't DS, Infiltrate or Outflank, and come from a crammed FA slot.

I'm trying to fit them into an actual game in my mind. I cannot recall any situation where I would have actually needed them. FO are completely useless vs. IG, they are weak vs. GK and are completely useless vs. DoC. That's a huge part of the current meta.

I dunno, man.
When it comes to the Elite slot, I'm pretty good with Deathmarks.

So 20 Flayed ones would be 260 points, right?
Well, for that price, I could get a squad of 5 Deathmarks, stick them in a Nightscythe, and attach a couple of Despair-teks (or one Despair-tek and 7 Deathmarks in the NS, or 10 Deathmarks and a Despair-tek equipped with a Veil)

Area denial anywhere on the board? Check.
Can take out Termies? Very check.
They only thing they can't handle on their own is vehicles... unless, of course, you attach a Storm-tek or a Destroyer Lord.
(you wanna talk about where a Destroyer Lord shines? How about giving a unit that wounds on a 2+ the ability to reroll its 1s!)

Yes, it means having to run one or two Overlord level HQ to unlock the Court(s), but in my experience, it has been VERY worth it.
(the worst thing about a D&D squad for your opponent is, as soon as that thing hits the table, there's nothing he can do to prevent one of his units being devastated... and sometime I run two or three. those looks on their faces. mmm, so delicious)

Uhm, "whirling your Gauss Flayer around" means 20-40 S4 shots in the enemy's face, not counting Overwatch.

That's not going to save them once they are in Base to Base, ie, in CC.

I averaged it. Let them get shot by template weapons and they'll fall like flies whereas vs. weak bolters, they are more resilant.

Averaged it? You way overestimated it. Flamers aren't going to change much unless its a whole squad of them. The bog standard Tac squad has bolters and plasma/melta/missle or laz.

FO are right into the enemy's troops, Necrons have 24'' effective range. That's why.

Sillyness. You're going to bring everything to bear at the same time. Plus, the FOs might not ever show up till turn 2 or 3 when the rest of the army is right on the enemies door step.

I gave neither side the bonus attacks for charging because they could be charged themselves just as well.

What? Then where did the Overwatch shots come from? And Tactical Marines are charging FOs now? You're example was simply unrealistic.

You spent 20x13 = 260 points for a cc unit to kill a 150 enemy non-cc unit in 3 turns. I do not see how this is an effective use of points. I also did not calculate the power weapon seargant in.

In your example, 65 points ate bullets (efficiently saving them from juicier targets), 39 points ate CC to take out 150+ tacticals, leaving the FOs very much in tact (13+ strong), very much still a player in the final turns, and very much still denying objectives. That's how its an effective use of points.

I'm trying to fit them into an actual game in my mind. I cannot recall any situation where I would have actually needed them.

I can't recall a situation where I've ever needed any unit in the entire game. Except troops I guess.

FO are completely useless vs. IG, they are weak vs. GK and are completely useless vs. DoC.

What? Why? FOs eat IG up, whether it's popping Chims or slaying vets. They also are very capable against most GK except Purifiers. How can you make definitive statements like that when you've obviously never seen them fight?



Skoffs: D&D is quite deadly, no question. The big difference here is I'm getting 20 bodies with the FOs where you're getting 8 with D&D (plus the NS). My area denial will be much harder to dislodge. D&D is made for a quick hitting punch, FOs are made for longevity. Ask the ladies which concept they like better ? Seriously though, just two different ways to skin a cat.

I think in order to move this along another direction, why can't we see that there are merits to Flayed Ones? If you prefer something else, then go on and keep prefering it. This is a tactics thread, and a poster is posting valid tactics on how to use Flayed Ones. Some posters think that Units A, B, and C do better, well great, that's tactics. Stacking a mathhammer battle in your favor does nothing to advance the arguments.
Are we running into competition in the Force Org that would make them invalid? What are we gaining by using them? What are we sacrificing? If we cover those bases, someone coming on to read this thread can make an informed choice on what to use in his/her army. If they try the Flayed Ones and get totally beaten down, then shucks, they didn't work out for them. If they use them and it does work out, then AWESOME!, it worked out, and I'm sure they'll get online and come post it up on here.
Eitherway, lets stay friends!
Tossing my hat in the ring: Any time I have deep struck/infiltrated with any necron unit, I have found that the benefit I gain from avoiding shooting to my Annihilation Barges and advancing troops let them get into the 24" killzone much more intact. I was criticized pretty heavily earlier when the Dex came out by using Lychguard with either a Ghostwalk-tek or Obyron on BoLS and Warseer. Despite my claims that they worked in my games very effectively, I just couldn't portray that to the internet community, so I stopped, and just kept playing. Occasionally I posted a battle rep and people would respond positively.
I wish we could all be part of the same gaming group and see each other play, it would stop all of this snarkiness.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Uhm, "whirling your Gauss Flayer around" means 20-40 S4 shots in the enemy's face, not counting Overwatch.

That's not going to save them once they are in Base to Base, ie, in CC.

I agree, screw those 40 S4 shots. Who even needs those? I usually let my Necrons walk straight at the enemy 1'' away so he can charge me. YOLO.

Averaged it? You way overestimated it. Flamers aren't going to change much unless its a whole squad of them. The bog standard Tac squad has bolters and plasma/melta/missle or laz.

Template weapons = flame, small, big blast. All use templates.

What? Then where did the Overwatch shots come from? And Tactical Marines are charging FOs now? You're example was simply unrealistic.

*your. True though, valid point. Don't mind the Overwatch wound then. Add in the power weapon sergeant instead.

In your example, 65 points ate bullets (efficiently saving them from juicier targets), 39 points ate CC to take out 150+ tacticals, leaving the FOs very much in tact (13+ strong), very much still a player in the final turns, and very much still denying objectives. That's how its an effective use of points.

I cannot say how wrong this statement is. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. I so often see people making such an argument and it's WRONG. This isn't how 40k works. This might work in WHFB and even then, it's debatable, but if you calculate points like that in 40k, you're dead wrong. If you outflank and attack the marines, then it's very likely that for the ENTIRE GAME, your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less.

I can't recall a situation where I've ever needed any unit in the entire game. Except troops I guess.

Wraiths to get rid of elite troops and can be everywhere anytime. AB to quickly kill opponents. Heavy Destroyers to get rid of that AV 14 / terminators.

What? Why? FOs eat IG up, whether it's popping Chims or slaying vets. They also are very capable against most GK except Purifiers. How can you make definitive statements like that when you've obviously never seen them fight?

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

I need to make that point though:

FO are not bad. The are pretty mediocre, tad lower. It's the comparison that matters and in comparison to the rest of the codex, they are trash. They can work, certainly, but in a competitive environment, they keep sitting on the shelf.

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

Not to be a negative nancy on your point but I'm pretty sure those squads laugh at almost everything in 40k. A Land Raider? Umm not to much tougher in the game except maybe a third edition monolith. Just saying.

Moving passed this flayed one argument, how about them tomb blades? I like bear bones with guass blasters although I have been thinking about the particle beamers for dual troop killing / light vehicle popping.

 Dumah12 wrote:

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

Not to be a negative nancy on your point but I'm pretty sure those squads laugh at almost everything in 40k. A Land Raider? Umm not to much tougher in the game except maybe a third edition monolith. Just saying.

Moving passed this flayed one argument, how about them tomb blades? I like bear bones with guass blasters although I have been thinking about the particle beamers for dual troop killing / light vehicle popping.

I've considered them and in 5th I found no use for them. In 6th I think I will get 5 as an additional choice for fire support or D. Lord escort, however having a max squad of five is an issue for me. I would run them with the stealth and improved save, but the tesla weapons are just so goodi think it is better than the blast. But maybe bring 2 of 1 and 3 of the other would alsobe good depending on your meta.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

A couple of things people tend to overlook/not consider until they've seen them in action quit a few times:

1.) BSS (from Imo) will effect your opponents deployment even when you have no intention of using them as such. I've seen opponents make all sorts of silly errors trying to protect/minimize the effects of BSS.

2.) They aren't fearless (which is definitely their Achilles, no argument there) , but they do have LD 10. Against shooting that tends to be all you need. And really, in a large squad, against assaults its generally all you need as well. A group of 20 FOs could lose 5 models against a MEQ opponent, will strike back and kill about 4, and then have to pass a 9 or under to not break (83.3%). Of course if the DLord is there you have a greater margin of error to deal with.

3.) Point for point, provided they don't break after the first round, FOs will kill TH/SS termies. Most of the Crons CC options aren't particular great against TH/SS, FOs actually are, winning about 70% of the time, and when they do win (ie, didn't break) they generally win big (only losing a few bases).

4.) They're a little faster then people think, because of the mechanics of RP. This has been reduced a bit because of the closest to closest mechanics of 6th edition, but still will regularly by you an inch or so which can really throw off your opponent if they aren't thinking about it.

5.) Be a non conformist and buck the interweb hive mind!

6.) They crush transports in CC. You need about 7 bases to kill any AV10 rear vehicle (on average), 10 for a multi-assault.

7.) If you have a small squad, or a squad that has been whittled down, don't be afraid to throw them at a shooting based Naught. They won't hurt it, but they will lock it down, and it won't hurt them either (your typical shooty dread averages about half a FO base/turn in CC).

Few things about the points you've pointed out;

1) Requires your opponent to be poor and make mistakes, whether or not your opponent makes an error shouldn't be in the equation when determining if a unit is good/effective, you should assume knowledgeable opponents.

2) Lack of Fearless is huge, a dedicated CC unit should never be getting swept if it is at full strength, which is a possibility with flayed ones. The point about the D.Lord is true but the D.Lord can make any unit effective in CC even warriors as he inflicts quite a few casualties on his own.

3) This is a good point that I had not thought of and doing the math myself confirms that point for point Flayed ones win CC with terminators.

4) This is a moot point, its the same for almost every necron unit, and again requires a poor opponent in order to take advantage of it. But ya they do get a tiny amount of extra movement if they are taking fire on their way up.

5) ...

6) I actually think they are the worst unit in the codex at destroying transports. So to say they "crush" transports is a bit of an over statement and by that statement then all necron units crush transports or better and then this isn't a selling point for flayed ones. Going through the codex the better units at destroying transports are; warriors, immortals, lytchguard, praetorians, Ctan, stalker, wraiths, scarabs, tomb blades, destroyers, doomsday arc, A.barge, monolith, doom scythe, spyders. That leaves deathmarks and tesla immortals as the 2 units left potentially worse than flayed ones at popping transports though I didn't do the math on them I am just assuming due to the low number of shots they are worse.

7) First off, now I might be wrong about this but its what I remember from the rulebook, is that you can't assault a vehicle that you cannot hurt.

So most of what you say doesn't really add much to the appeal of flayed ones but I will give you the terminator point. They do seem effective against them, but it requires a similar investment in them and if your opponent isn't running terminators then you've spent alot of points to do something worse than something else you could have had.

Oh and peoples fear of deepstriking isn't simply that you get shot first but that by the nature of deepstriking your exposed in the open and clumped together ready to get pie plated. And since flayed ones appear to need decent numbers to be effective thats alot of hits from a pie plate, most of which will bypass your armour.

That's would be nice if you could but it says the entire squad must exchange guns.

Yeah I have 3 that I use but they really don't have enough fire power to really hurt stuff I think. But they are pretty cheap at 20 points and its nice to grab line breaker late game because of the jet bike turbo boost.

 Dumah12 wrote:
That's would be nice if you could but it says the entire squad must exchange guns.

Yeah I have 3 that I use but they really don't have enough fire power to really hurt stuff I think. But they are pretty cheap at 20 points and its nice to grab line breaker late game because of the jet bike turbo boost.

Well that makes them even more unappealing. I thought they could vary their equipment. So perhaps the tesla version is just better, as it is twin linked and has the potential for 6 shots each model with twin linked, as opposed to more expensive blasts that might drift and will only average 2 maybe three models hit.

I don't know if *any* of the upgrades are worth it on the tomb blades. If you keep them with Tesla, its twin-linked. Giving them BS 5 will, if you fired 30 times at something, will net you only an extra 1.49 hits. 30 shots is the amount of fire your 5 man unit can put out in 6 turns. That means for an entire game, 25pts netted you 1.49 hits. Leave the nebuloscope at home. Both of the other upgrades attempt to push an affordable, fast and killy unit into an expensive, fast and killy unit that is slightly more survivable. Zahndrek pays 5pts for the ability to give a unit stealth every turn. Don't pay 50pts to upgrade these guys with it.
The increased armor save, I can't really comment on. Well, maybe I can. Would you pay 10 points to upgrade a Necron Warrior to have one better armor save and a tesla gun? You wouldn't? Why not? Oh, because it only costs 4pts to do that, not 10.
So in short, don't get trapped by this unit. It suffers by having to compete in the best slot for Necrons already, don't make it something its not. Keep em cheap and play to their strengths, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Tomb Blades area surprisingly good distraction unit that is super fast which helps contest objectives and get line breaker. I normally run them with Gauss Blasters to take pot shots at tanks or +4 armor save dudes that are out of cover. Tesla can be good if you wish to stay at 24'' and we know that TL means more chances to roll a 6.
The Particle beamers are brutal against IG/DE/Eldar command units as you will be insta killing them, if they fail their saves. You can use Nights Scythes to destroy/wreak a transport , then drop 5 blasts on the unit which should be close together.

Tactics wise, don't rush with them, keep them out of LOS of most of your opponents army, which is easy with turbo boost. They generally don't attract much fire if your running Wraiths/Destroyers/Scarabs. They can be in position to add weight of fire to a Night Scythe army.
Tomb Blades are a late game unit.

Are they worth the cost? If you give them no upgrades they are really cheap for a Jetbike, in 6th Edition they are one of the best unit types. I wouldn't give them the BS5, Stealth or the increased amour save, its too many points spent on a flanking unit.

The main issue is they are in the Fast Attack slot, with the Necrons best units. Wraiths/Destroyers/Scarabs are incredibly good and form the Back Bone to many Necron lists. Destroyer Wing makes Marines cry blood, Scarab farm melts mech lists and can tarpit/crush units under weight of attacks. Wraith wing soaks up fire like no body's business and excel at wiping out shooty infantry and if the dice are good, CC units even terminators.

Was does Tomb Blade wing do? TB are basically a Immortals gun on a mobile platform, T+1 and -1Sv. Thats Ok but not something to build a list around.
On the scouring FA are scoring so TB become fantastic units to get late game objectives

Hey guys I dont know where to post this. Thought maybe 40k lists but figured it might just piss people off.
I have been a DE player for years. Have 5000-6000+ pts. and need a break. So I went out and bought some necrons. Need some advice going forward.

Here is what I have:

3 unmade fliers
4 squads of unmade immortals

What should I buy without buying and wasting money on BS.

Thinking getting 3 annihilation barges
12 wraiths
overlords
crypteks
etc. whats your opinion.

That about covers it. The Barges are key, Wraiths are great. Flyers are great. Fill out with troops. You're good to go. You'll eventually try out all sorts of things and probably buy according to your play style. All-in-all, we have a great book and you'll find that most things are acceptable.

Just wanted to respond to a few hits real quick and the I'll let the FO topic pass.

I agree, screw those 40 S4 shots. Who even needs those? I usually let my Necrons walk straight at the enemy 1'' away so he can charge me. YOLO.

Sig, the context was what advantages do FOs have over Warriors, and the notion was you can use them more aggressively, ie allow them to get closer to the enemy. I don't think think that's been refuted.

Template weapons = flame, small, big blast. All use templates.

Again, the context was Overwatch.

*your. True though, valid point. Don't mind the Overwatch wound then. Add in the power weapon sergeant instead.

Grammar Nazi . Sure, that's fine, although unlikely (at least from what I've seen, PW on a Tac Serg).

I cannot say how wrong this statement is. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG. I so often see people making such an argument and it's WRONG. This isn't how 40k works. This might work in WHFB and even then, it's debatable, but if you calculate points like that in 40k, you're dead wrong. If you outflank and attack the marines, then it's very likely that for the ENTIRE GAME, your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less.

Point for point isn't a definitive way of appraising a units functionality, that I absolutely agree with you. However, it does give you some sort of barometer of a units full impact. If, in the above example, a unit soaks up a lot of firepower, takes out an enemy unit, and denies an area/objective, then it most certainly did all three. Boiling it down to "your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less" is quite simply missing the big picture. Take Brymm's example with the LG, if you're FOs do nothing more then eat a truck load of bullets and allow the rest of your army to get into position,.that's a HUGE win. HUGE. Even if they don't kill a single model, it's a win.

Wraiths to get rid of elite troops and can be everywhere anytime. AB to quickly kill opponents. Heavy Destroyers to get rid of that AV 14 / terminators.

Fair enough, but none of those are needed.

Uhm sorry? FO enter the field, template, dead. Come on now. Paladins laugh at FO. Purifier laugh at FO. Land Raider laugh at FO. Psiflebot laughts at FO. Sigh. Have you ever played FO? (I can do that too.) Also: I have 14 FO I converted myself back in the days and occasionally (very rarely) field them in friendlies. They didn't do bad. Just....not good enough to justify their cost. Give them *something*. They had that cool USR in 5th. Or give them rending. Fearless. Anything.

IG don't scare FOs, they just don't, exactly how many templates do you think it's going to take to kill a well spread out FO unit? And if that's the case, does that mean the IG make all infantry disappear instantly? Are Flayed Ones somehow more vulnerable to templates then anything else (they do have to get closer, so I suppose their is something their). And yes, Paladins and Purifiers are scary against CC units, although that's pretty much every CC unit in the game that has to tread carefully around them.


Punisher, I should have said "a couple of little things" as I agree most aren't complete game changers, but they do help.

1) Requires your opponent to be poor and make mistakes, whether or not your opponent makes an error shouldn't be in the equation when determining if a unit is good/effective, you should assume knowledgeable opponents.

Good strategies always include potential psychological impacts on the enemy. The more you give your opponent to deal with the better chance they deal with it inefficiently.

2) Lack of Fearless is huge

It's something you have to keep in mind, but it's really not game breaking. Again, LD 10 and a boat load of attacks. It (FOs breaking) really doesn't happen nearly as often as people seem to project.

4) This is a moot point, its the same for almost every necron unit, and again requires a poor opponent in order to take advantage of it.

Not any of the Canopteks, which are really the FOs primary competition for CC (although they are all certainly faster). Also, it doesn't really require a poor opponent, only one willing to shoot at them. If they don't shoot at them...well then their not shot at. There are a lot of similar CC only units (wyches, genies, etc) that would love to have incentives for the opponent to not shoot at them.

6) I actually think they are the worst unit in the codex at destroying transports.

It takes ~14 Warriors/Immortals in rapid fire range to pop a transport, where as ~7 FOs in assault range will do the trick. Now, of course the threat range for Warriors/Immortals is a little higher, however the damage potential drops off significantly. Anyway, what I should have said is "they crush transports in their threat range."

Edit: Just remembered this, if FOs are killing a transport they have a pretty good chance of taking the contents with them, something else to keep in mind.

7) First off, now I might be wrong about this but its what I remember from the rulebook, is that you can't assault a vehicle that you cannot hurt.

I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure the only difference is you can choose to leave combat against such units now.

Oh and peoples fear of deepstriking

With just a 2"+ run roll, you get just as spread out as you could naturally.

monti14 wrote:
Hey guys I dont know where to post this. Thought maybe 40k lists but figured it might just piss people off.

Actually, posting lists in the middle of tactics threads has a higher chance of annoying people than posting lists in the lists forum...

 Brymm wrote:
I don't know if *any* of the upgrades are worth it on the tomb blades. If you keep them with Tesla, its twin-linked. Giving them BS 5 will, if you fired 30 times at something, will net you only an extra 1.49 hits. 30 shots is the amount of fire your 5 man unit can put out in 6 turns. That means for an entire game, 25pts netted you 1.49 hits. Leave the nebuloscope at home. Both of the other upgrades attempt to push an affordable, fast and killy unit into an expensive, fast and killy unit that is slightly more survivable. Zahndrek pays 5pts for the ability to give a unit stealth every turn. Don't pay 50pts to upgrade these guys with it.
The increased armor save, I can't really comment on. Well, maybe I can. Would you pay 10 points to upgrade a Necron Warrior to have one better armor save and a tesla gun? You wouldn't? Why not? Oh, because it only costs 4pts to do that, not 10.
So in short, don't get trapped by this unit. It suffers by having to compete in the best slot for Necrons already, don't make it something its not. Keep em cheap and play to their strengths, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

If you aren't running Zandrekh the Stealth on the tomb blades looks pretty good to me. You are looking at a 3+ if they turbo boost right? And I would definitely prefer the Armour 3 to the Armour 4+ just because of the amount of AP 4 weapons being used in the current Meta.

If you aren't running Zandrekh the Stealth on the tomb blades looks pretty good to me. You are looking at a 3+ if they turbo boost right? And I would definitely prefer the Armour 3 to the Armour 4+ just because of the amount of AP 4 weapons being used in the current Meta.

Yeah that's about right. Also obviously stacks with Shrouding from Night Fighting. That's the one way I've envisioned using them in 6th. Hang around on the periphery, dropping Tesla from the outskirts of your max range, hide behind good cover save, T5, and RP against return fire.

I wouldn't recommend getting the armor save and stealth however. I would get one or the other depending on how you see using them.

I used them pretty extensively in 5th. I would Trubo boost them around to provide a cover wall for my other toys, and hop them behind vehicles I was about to assault to shut the doors on them and kill the innards. I haven't used them as much anymore but being the only true jet bikes left to the Crons I still think they have potential.

Another build I've always mused about is the 5 BS with Particle Beamers. 175 points for 5 very mobile S6 BS 5 blast templates seems like it could do some damage.

I still cant see how flayed ones are good.

^
Dude, don't get them started again.
I'm sick a page long responses to responses where all they try to do is out mathhammer each other or point out banal inadequacies in someone's reasoning.

First of all, I need to apologize for my tone...after reading through my posts again, I got the impression of sounding pretty hostile. I apologize for this.

Anyway, since skroff asked us to continue, I cannot resist!

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Just wanted to respond to a few hits real quick and the I'll let the FO topic pass.
Sig, the context was what advantages do FOs have over Warriors, and the notion was you can use them more aggressively, ie allow them to get closer to the enemy. I don't think think that's been refuted.

To begin with, I all of us have been mislead by this comparison - it's not fitting and thus a bad comparison. Necron Warriors' main use is anti-vehicle and scoring whereas FO fail at these tasks but are better in melee due to having +2 attacks compared to the average Necron Warrior. Anyway, if we stick to the comparison, I'd still consider Warriors equally strong at the very least. 40 S4 shots is nothing to scoff at and Overwatch then grants you another 40 S4 shots hitting on 6s aka ~7 S4 hits. That's pretty good despite those losses not counting vs. combat result. That's where FO (would) perform better due to sheer volume of attacks. On the other hand, they get this advantage at the cost of having no ranged weapon which makes them less flexible. If I was to choose between these two units, I would not hesitate for a blink of a second and pick Warriors. The scoring part alone is incredibly useful in 6th as 5/6 missions rely on scoring units - not to mention that you still got the option to use GA to make your Warriors even more resistant to damage. Talking about area denial - that's where, in my eyes, Warriors perform better as well. A scoring unit on an objective means a point advantage of 6 (you get 3 points while your opponent gets -3 in regards to the overall total amount of points). FO cannot score and thus only give a (theoretical) +3 as they deny an objective. I play a Silver Tide list and it's really hard to get those 20 Necron Warriors to move away from the objective. Sure, it's really, really, REALLY expensive to have 2 GA and Zandrekh, but that's a squad to stay

On their own, FO are better at area denial unless confronted with light vehicles that swoop around and shoot them - FO have an average threat range of 13'' whereas Necron Warriors, against vehicles, have an effective threat range of 30''.

Again, the context was Overwatch.

I wasn’t specifically talking about Overwatch though, I was talking about the dangers of having FO so close to the enemy.

*your. True though, valid point. Don't mind the Overwatch wound then. Add in the power weapon sergeant instead.

Y U CALL ME NAZI BRO?! I usually see seargeants packing an energy weapon as they help just fine vs. 3+…which is a lot of troops.

*Point for point isn't a definitive way of appraising a units functionality, that I absolutely agree with you. However, it does give you some sort of barometer of a units full impact. If, in the above example, a unit soaks up a lot of firepower, takes out an enemy unit, and denies an area/objective, then it most certainly did all three. Boiling it down to "your FO did nothing but kill a single squad of tac that costs less" is quite simply missing the big picture. Take Brymm's example with the LG, if you're FOs do nothing more then eat a truck load of bullets and allow the rest of your army to get into position,.that's a HUGE win. HUGE. Even if they don't kill a single model, it's a win.

My main gripe about the entire issue is that I see it all from a gamer’s perspective – and points don’t matter when it comes to actually playing. If it took a FO squad 3-5 turns (including the Outflank) to kill a single tac squad in a game, they aren’t efficient in what they do. All of your points went into a unit that managed to kill another unit that cost less points – and that’s not economic. FO, however, cannot eat „a lot of bullets“ as they only have a 4+ armor save that’s easily negated by a lot of (vehicle) weapons and even We Will Be Back only saves you for so long. They got a critical point models-wise, as soon as that one’s reached, they can no longer pack enough man…uh…machine power to pose a threat to the enemy.

Fair enough, but none of those are needed.

I disagree. In a competitive environment, those are necessary, at least Wraiths and AB – you need to maximize your effectiveness within reasonable limits. It’s about the meta and FO are inferior to most other choices a Necron army can offer given the meta you’re in. In friendlies…well, anything goes in those. I might even take a monolith if I still had one

IG don't scare FOs, they just don't, exactly how many templates do you think it's going to take to kill a well spread out FO unit? And if that's the case, does that mean the IG make all infantry disappear instantly? Are Flayed Ones somehow more vulnerable to templates then anything else (they do have to get closer, so I suppose their is something their). And yes, Paladins and Purifiers are scary against CC units, although that's pretty much every CC unit in the game that has to tread carefully around them.

One hit template will render FO ineffective in melee, the same goes for their huge lack of anti-vehicle power. S4 hits simply do not cut it. They can hardly scratch AV 10 (back armor) vehicles and a lot of the stuff at tournaments either has 11 (Necrons) or 14 (Leman Russ, Land Raider etc.). Just get a dreadnought vs. the FO and they are completely useless as they cannot harm him, not even a single scratch.

It takes ~14 Warriors/Immortals in rapid fire range to pop a transport, where as ~7 FOs in assault range will do the trick. Now, of course the threat range for Warriors/Immortals is a little higher, however the damage potential drops off significantly. Anyway, what I should have said is "they crush transports in their threat range."

Ehem. 30‘‘ for Warriors w/ normal shots + 18‘‘ in double tap range compared to (on average) 13‘‘ for FO is quite a lot, not „a little“

 skoffs wrote:
^
Dude, don't get them started again.
I'm sick a page long responses to responses where all they try to do is out mathhammer each other or point out banal inadequacies in someone's reasoning.

 skoffs wrote:
^
Dude, don't get them started again.
I'm sick a page long responses to responses where all they try to do is out mathhammer each other or point out banal inadequacies in someone's reasoning.

Correct, lets not get that started again.
Also, Skoff, I love the avatar. Me and the wife just started the Battlestar Galactica series on Netflix. We're only 10 episodes in and I can honestly say it is the best sci-fi series ever. Period.

Anyways, again about the tomb blades, how can the 3+ armor be worth it? If you're getting 4+ jink anyways (with stealth), how can paying 10 points per guy be worth getting AV3? I mean, how many lists have you made before where you've needed 40 or 50 more points to get something? Now you've found it! You just shaved off a sub-par expensive upgrade from your tomb blades!!!

My concern is that they aren't fearless, and there is 5 of them. So increasing their survivability seems to be key. Against the torrent of fire from small arms the 3+ save would be better than the cover save if you bring a Destroyer Lord along as he can't turbo boost with the squad to achieve a 3+ cover save. If you solely plan to use them for cheap, harassing and last minute objective grabbing I agree, run them stripped but I would keep the shadowlooms.

Here is another way to look at it, your increasing their cost by 50% with shield veins while only increasing their survivability by 16.66%.

It`s not a cost efficient way to run them your paying too much for too little added survivability.

Blades are good naked they are cheap with high toughness and can get you line breaker while not drawing much enemy fire. An argument can be made for the beamers but making them more expensive seems to hurt their appeal for me. They are a cheap fire support unit that can easily get you line breaker and help finish off weakened units wherever.

100pts for 5 jetbikes is a pretty decent unit added with a str5 gun makes them an adequate unit, the upgrades while looking nice are too expensive for what they do and won't add enough value to the unit to be worth it, spend the points elsewhere.

Shadowlooms have the same problem as shield veins in that it increases the cost of the unit by 50% to what? Give them a slightly better cover save...

Unless you really don't have anything left to spend your points on I wouldn't bother giving tomblades any upgrades (ok maybe beamers if you know your up against orcs or blob guard). Increasing the BS of the blade isn't very good for the tesla weapon or the beamer, the beamer doesn't scatter very far anyway (plus you should only be really using it against blobs) and it does very little to a tesla weapon since its already twin linked you benefit from re-rolling 2's to try for another 6, the only weapon that benefits from BS5 is gauss blasters but then they don't really synergize well with the tomb blade.

I think that scarabs are probably the best FA choice because they allways get their points back and more. Wraiths are good but i havent tried them out so much.

- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

 HerbaciousT wrote:
- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

What kind of necrons?

 HerbaciousT wrote:
- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

This isn't true, is not constructive, adds nothing useful to the topic at hand, and makes you sound like a whining baby.

I know eventually I will buy alot of crons. But before I shell out 400= dollars I want to get your guys oppinnion. After alot of experience playing I am sure your guys oppinnion will trump mine.

Like I said earlier I have 3 fliers and 4 squads of immortals

Gonna probably get:
2 overlords
5-6 crypteks
12 wraiths
3 barges
1-2 warrior boxes (maybe ebay it)
etc

Any advice?

Sounds like a really good list. I'd recommend getting 1 Destroyer Lord instead of 2 overlords (so 1 Overlord + 1 DL) to go with a squad of Wraiths, it really pays off and you do not need a double court anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HerbaciousT wrote:
- Tactic Number 1

Step 1: Have some Necrons.

Step 2: Build pretty much any list you want. The cheese will flow.

Step 3: ????

Step 4: Profit!

Step 1: Cut a hole in the box.

...wait.

Step 1: Rush into a thread

Step 2: Make a QQ post that lacks any reasoning

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Be ashamed of yourself.

monti14 wrote:
I know eventually I will buy alot of crons. But before I shell out 400= dollars I want to get your guys oppinnion. After alot of experience playing I am sure your guys oppinnion will trump mine.

Like I said earlier I have 3 fliers and 4 squads of immortals

Gonna probably get:
2 overlords
5-6 crypteks
12 wraiths
3 barges
1-2 warrior boxes (maybe ebay it)
etc

Any advice?

Well you don't need the overlords since each barge box comes with a Overlord. Other than that, you might want to try deathmarks as they can be pretty devastating in combination with despairteks and a flyer.

monti14 wrote:
I know eventually I will buy alot of crons. But before I shell out 400= dollars I want to get your guys oppinnion. After alot of experience playing I am sure your guys oppinnion will trump mine.

Like I said earlier I have 3 fliers and 4 squads of immortals

Gonna probably get:
2 overlords
5-6 crypteks
12 wraiths
3 barges
1-2 warrior boxes (maybe ebay it)
etc

Any advice?

Don't forget your trusty Destroyer Lord!

Punisher wrote:
Here is another way to look at it, your increasing their cost by 50% with shield veins while only increasing their survivability by 16.66%.

Although I've used the very same reasoning myself that doesn't really tell the whole story when analyzing the math. First, when moving from a 4+ to a 3+ armor save you are getting much more then just a 16.67% increase in survivability against AP 4 weapons. Also, and this is obviously harder to quantify, but that better save will keep the unit from being wiped at times, allowing RP to kick in, which obviously has a multiplicative effect.

Lastly though, just comparing the raw firepower, a one better save significantly increase the average amount of shots to lay a single model down:

Say Bolters versus 4+ or 3+ (on T5 Tomb Blades):

9(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2)=1

14(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷3)=1.04

So on average 9 shots to take down one dude with a 4+ save and 14 shots to take down one dude with a 3+ save, or 55% more firepower. Or take this for example, how many shots on average does it take to kill 4 guys with 4+ saves versus 3 guys with 3+ saves?

41(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷3)=3.04

36(2÷3)(1÷3)(1÷2)=4

So you're clearly getting more bang for your buck in strictly resiliency and longevity terms with the Save upgrades, and that's not even taking into account AP 4 or moments when that save kept the unit affloat long enough to get its RP rolls. Now, the 4+ save unit does have an extra gun, so that still doesn't tell the whole story. Just trying to shed some light into the method of GW's pricing madness.


Sig: don't want to derail the thread anymore with our Flayed One pillow fight, I'll shoot you a PM though to bat around some of the other points you mentioned.


Brymm: BSG is without a doubt my favorite series ever. I've literally seen each episode at least 5 times, with some (Exodus!) probably about a dozen. By the way, the boardgame by FFG is actually quite fantastic, and not too boardgame geek intensive (I've played it with "the monopoly crowd" and they enjoyed it). Definitely recommend if you can get a good 5 or 6 people together. Everyone randomly gets assigned a hidden loyalty card telling them if they are a Cylon or not, and you spend the whole game trying to figure out who to throw in the Brig/Out the Airlock while battling off Raiders/Heavy Raiders and Basestars and working your way through crisis after crisis. Good times.

@Shardar: Hmm, I still think it should belong in the thread as imo, it's a very worthwhile discussion, especially in regards to FO who are normally seen as "trash" which certainly isn't a true verdict. It's a very valid tactical question and our mathhammer proved that FO have certain advantages over Wraiths while lacking in others.

How about we try to find some common demonitors via PM and post to make a pro / con post with mathhammer in spoilers that might help others?

I am currently writing a new Necron tactica and am looking forward to more input.

As for now, we can agree on FO not being trash, but having a (slightly) different use than Wraiths that are one of the codex' shining stars...can we? ;D

My verdict so far: mediocre units that fall short of the rest of the codex.

I've enjoyed this thread and gleaned quite a bit of knowledge on the Necrons from reading, thanks to all for your posting and analysis. Been interesting.

Here's a question, regarding Praetorians: most folks seem to lean towards their Rod of the Covenant weapon, but has anyone worked out how well their particle caster/voidblade weaponry does? Rending and entropic strike on the voidblades at S5 doesn't seem too bad, and a S6 shooting weapon would have its uses I imagine. They also get extra attacks in CC, granted without much armor penetrating power.

I have 10 unbuilt Lychguard/Praetorians, and am still deciding what to do with them -and I've already used one staff for a cryptek conversion so Rod weapons are difficult. I suppose I could just use plastic rod for the staves too, but still.

Not sure if I should build 5 Praetorians, 5 Lychguard with shields, use 5 for Necron Lord conversions with warscythes...

 GrimTeef wrote:


Not sure if I should build 5 Praetorians, 5 Lychguard with shields, use 5 for Necron Lord conversions with warscythes...

I originally ran my Lychguard with sword/shield. It wasn't until after a couple of games that I discovered that you MUST take the best save available to you. This means that more often than not, you'll be using their 3+ armor save instead of the 4+ invulnerable save provided by the shield. So in order for the shields to be effective, you have to be within 6" of an enemy unit, and get hit (and wounded) by a shooting weapon that ignores armor. The chances of all those things occurring simultaneously, especially if your opponent knows what those shields do, are pretty slim. My suggestion would be to model them with warscythes, but if that's not an option, you might consider one of your other choices.

It also depends on your intent to use the Lychguard. You can run them as Lychguard, in that case the Warscythe option is better, or you can use them to escort a Deathstar of RC members and Overlords, in that case I would use the shields, just because you will be sending LoS wounds to them and the Lords should have SW and they'll just be allocating wounds to Lychguard that will need Inv. saves.

ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.

Nemesor wrote:
ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.

I mathammered it out and YES 400pts of TPs will Kill 200pts of Wraiths IF(and this is a pretty big if) the TPs get the charge AND have access to a Res Orb. Otherwise what happened in your game was nothing more than luck.

In a complete stand off battle where no one gets the charge it takes 5 Wraiths to kill 10 RoC TPs(lack of the TPs having a RO might even drop it to 4 Wraiths)
4 Wraiths if they get the charge(lack of RO for TPs)
and 6 Wraiths if the TPs get the charge(lack of RO for TPs)

A Destroyer Lord can improve both squads significantly but can do more with the TPs since a RO will improve the TPs and the DL. But now you are talking about a 600pt unit vs a 400pt unit that depends on which one will get the charge to decide the victor.

Nemesor wrote:
ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.

Your example bears no value to the discussion. I have seen people in 5th winning with Tau vs GK, did that make them less overpowered?

Mathhammer is about getting the average results, not specific individual results as those bear no statistical value on their own. If you use that set of mind to judge on what's better, you're gonna have a bad time.

I disagree with the DL doing more for the TP. You need to keep in mind that Wraiths have Rending and thus every re-roll means another potential 6. I'd say they are about equal. The thing is that TP are useless wtihout a DL whereas Wraiths can hold fine on their own.

Nemesor wrote:
ima just clear this up from a game i just played where the 6 wraiths vs 10 tp. 1 wraith was killed by shooting, then the wraiths killed no tp's. When the tp's attacked back they killed another 4 wraiths. in other words they did better than mathammer said they would and killed 200 pts for a loss of 0 pts - seems to me that tp's are the clear winner in my mind. obviously the wraiths are a brilliant unit, but the fact that they dont have rp is actually a massive loss for them that makes them actually worse in straight up cc than they appear to be, and because of this thay also suffer from high volumes of shots of any ap, where as the tp attack at s6 ap2 in cc, which is like the wraiths rending every one of their hits. thats not to be sniffed at. I would be inclined to field wraiths in an army however because they are more bang for there buck and both models are fun to paint. The other thing is that people know how good wraiths are so they are targets in a way that tp arent. Also tp look bas ass supported by a stalker, so heh, what else matters.

So I assuming no D. lord was involved in the combat? And you are impressed that a squad that is twice the points of a squad of wraiths, killed the squad? First, try taking 400 points of wraiths against 400 points of TP and then get back to me.

10 Wraiths vs. 10 TP, I know who'd win

Assuming that nobody gets the charge:

Wraiths strike first: 30 attacks, 15 hits, wound on 3s, 10 wounds with ~2 armor piercing ones, thus 8 wounds vs. the 3+ => ~3+2 = 5 dead TP before they can strike back. No need to further elaborate here, we know how it ends.

"YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE ROD LOLOL".

If the TP get charged, it's neglible. If they charge, which is rather unlikely given the range of 6'', that's 10 shots. 6.p6 hits, wounds on 3+, 4.p4 wounds caused, 3++ => 1,5 dead Wraiths.

*yawn*

Why do you compare them to each other? Compare them instead to other enemy units. These two units do different things like TPs eat MEQs while Wraiths can face small elite units.

 Tomten wrote:
Why do you compare them to each other? Compare them instead to other enemy units. These two units do different things like TPs eat MEQs while Wraiths can face small elite units.

MEQ also suffer vs. Wraiths - they lack attacks compared to Wraiths and volume of fire is the one thing Wraiths fear.

I disagree with the DL doing more for the TP. You need to keep in mind that Wraiths have Rending and thus every re-roll means another potential 6. I'd say they are about equal. The thing is that TP are useless wtihout a DL whereas Wraiths can hold fine on their own.

Agree with most of what you said except this last bit. The T's can use the RO and the PE, while the Wraiths can only use the PE. The TP always have a shooting weapon (to take advantage of the PE in shooting), the Wraiths seldom have one. You can give 10 TP bases RO and PE at once, you can only give 6 Wraith bases PE. Also, they can both have Rending, and the TPs can have Rending and Entropic, which also ultimately would benefit from the re-rolls (not the actual Entropic roll, just the to-hit roll preceding it). It's pretty clear which one benefits more from the DLord's presence.

And the TPs are far from "useless" without it, although I do agree I would generally prefer the Wraiths if the DLord wasn't part of the equation. Even straight up with no Res Orb, the TPs are a little more resilient to small arms fire and AP4 or worse CC attacks, the VB/PC TPs are more lethal against vehicles of all kinds and the Rod are more lethal against not SS Terms. That being said, the Wraiths are clearly the general safer bet in CC as the Whips give them a clear advantage there.

Quick note on the Whips, people seem to assume they will always cover every model at initiative order, that's really far from the case in actually practical terms, in particular when the Wraiths are being assaulted.

I am very critical towards the RO as it's 30 points and barely makes up its cost. I always take one in my Silver Tide list and it might be worth it with TP as they are Fearless.

With saying they're "useless" I meant that without a DL, they are inferior to Wraiths in most, if not all, regards. VB / PC is a really bad choice for TP as you absolutely do not need anti-vehicle cc units with stuff like Scarabs, Gauss and Heavy Destroyers. Furthermore, paying so many points for a 1W model with AP3 is pretty lackluster. I'd rather take WS LG then

Agree with the latter part. In my eyes, the whip's main advantage is letting those juicy targets strike at I1 while letting the others strike first.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I am very critical towards the RO as it's 30 points and barely makes up its cost. I always take one in my Silver Tide list and it might be worth it with TP as they are Fearless.

I have to say, been bringing an RO on my DLord in every game I've played with him just about and I never leave home with out it now. That amazing thing about having it on the DLord is you can stretch it much farther then just his initial squad. You get just one TP on a "4" RP roll and it's already paid for itself, anything above and beyond that is just gravy.

With saying they're "useless" I meant that without a DL, they are inferior to Wraiths in most, if not all, regards.

Except, of course, getting shot at, killing vehicles (VB/PC) or terms/MeQ (Rod).

VB / PC is a really bad choice for TP as you absolutely do not need anti-vehicle cc units with stuff like Scarabs, Gauss and Heavy Destroyers.

Well, you don't need Scarabs or Heavy Ds if you have VB/PC TPs either. They are all strong anti-tank, although the TPs don't come from the FA slot like the other two do. VB/PC TPs run a lot like Scarabs in fact, except they don't just melt if your opponent has a lot of high strength templates, and then they can also handle themselves in CC against a wider variety of targets.

So, anyone can say what is the ideal number of necron warrios to have in a squad for it to be effective? 10? 12? 15?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So, anyone can say what is the ideal number of necron warrios to have in a squad for it to be effective? 10? 12? 15?

Generally it depends on how you plan on using them. In most situations, I have found the sweet spot to be 10. 10 fit in a Ghost ark, 10 hold an objective easily and losing 10 to falling back or sweeping is better than losing 15-20 from the same result. Though often I will have 1-2 min squads who's sole purpose is to stay back, out of LOS and just claim objectives.

But is 10 warriors enough to be effective? 10 shots isn't going to do much. (though 20 at rapid fire might do more). 10 shots probably aren't going to glance a vehicle to death. 15 shots will statistically do 2 hull points for sure, and 3 if you are lucky.

And a bit of casualties will drop a 10 men squad to such a level they are irrelevant. A 15 men squad can take some casualties and still contribute a fair amount of firepower.

I second 10. It depends on your list. I run Silver Tide with 20 in a squad, but 10 is a good number for taking your own objective. You do not want to get Warriors at the front, you got Immortals for that job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Except, of course, getting shot at, killing vehicles (VB/PC) or terms/MeQ (Rod).

Depends on what you're getting shot at. AP3 weapons just melt through TP whereas Wraiths easily shrug them off. I don't get why people keep stating that Wraiths don't do well vs. terms...every 6 to wound is a high chance for a dead terminator whereas Wraiths get a 3++ and 2W in return. They do well vs. terminators. TP suffer from getting shot at before with AP 3 weapons before making it into melee.

What also needs to be kept in mind, and that's a really important point people always forget, is Wraiths ignoring difficult terrain. That's a huge bonus on most battlefields. You can go anywhere, whenever you want with little to no disadvantage.

VB / PC is a really bad choice for TP as you absolutely do not need anti-vehicle cc units with stuff like Scarabs, Gauss and Heavy Destroyers.

/quote]Well, you don't need Scarabs or Heavy Ds if you have VB/PC TPs either.

Depends on what you're getting shot at. AP3 weapons just melt through TP whereas Wraiths easily shrug them off.

Depends on the AP 3 weapons as they are going to have to contend with cover, RP, and either T5 or they will be double T for the Wraiths. Really, when discussing AP 3 weapons we are almost always discussing missiles, which are a wash between the two with normal cover, Wraiths come out ahead with no cover, and TPs come out ahead Stealthed or Shrouded.

I don't get why people keep stating that Wraiths don't do well vs. terms

You're right, Wraiths do fine against Terms, although Rod TPs are a bit more killy against non SS Terms.

TPs are not strong anti-tank. Both scarabs and HD can get rid of even heavy vehicles whereas TP would just look sad

For the record, I was speaking of VB/PC TPs:

5 VB/PC TPs versus Land Raider:

15(2÷3)(1÷2)=5 (Entropic Hits)
so...
15(2÷3)(1÷2)=5 Hull Points (9 armor because of entropic) of which 3.33 are Pens

VP/PC TPs wreck heavy vehicles. Badly. Quicker then Heavy D's, assuming you can get them into CC of course. Not as quickly as Scarabs...but then again you have the aforementioned vulnerabilities, and Scarabs are less punchy against troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'd take S7 AP1 over VB anytime.

Well, in a vacuum, who wouldn't? The TPs tend to be a bit faster then the LG though, and you gotta catch them tanks if you wanna bang on them with your sticks .

Eldenfirefly wrote:
But is 10 warriors enough to be effective? 10 shots isn't going to do much. (though 20 at rapid fire might do more). 10 shots probably aren't going to glance a vehicle to death. 15 shots will statistically do 2 hull points for sure, and 3 if you are lucky.

And a bit of casualties will drop a 10 men squad to such a level they are irrelevant. A 15 men squad can take some casualties and still contribute a fair amount of firepower.

Like I said,it depends on the role you have them play. I always run a squad of Immortals at 8-10( depending on point value) in a Nightscythe. I ran Gauss immortals in the past but have recently switched to Tesla. The Immortals are a little tougher and put out stronger shots, so those are more effectively and precisely deliver. Where as Warriors, fill a more back field and defensive position which you can deploy in harder cover which compensates for the need to,increase their numbers. But it also again really depends on your point value and the entire build of your army. However, as the point value increases I have still found it more effective to split warrior squads up if you are able to increase their squad size to 15+. As you can always choose to run them in tandem with each other and opposing fire can only target one squad at a time, and you can screen warriors with each other and it doesn't much matter if you give opposing units a cover save as gauss flyers are only ap5 anyway, and at worst you give poorly armored units a 5+ cover or if needed you can repositioning the movement phase to reduce the opposing cover save. Otherwise, I deploy them in a way that one squad is able to remain stationary on objectives, one will usually be manning a quad on an ADL near a second objective and that leaves me usually one in a Night scythe or able to back up one of the objectives covered by warriors while one of my Immortals contest or takes opposing objectives.

Hey yo guys! Awesome thread, learned a lot from it!

So question. I bought 20 immortals/deathmarks, but suddenly I have no idea how I want to assemble them. First I figured 20 immortals, but then after reading on the deathmarks, they seem really cool, but is it worth
making all ten of them into deathmarks? Cause it seems improbable to make 15 immortals and 5 deathmarks, since you can't use 15 immortals in a squad, and you'd probably never run with a 5man immortal squad.
Thoughts?

It depends on what you want to do with them and if you mainly play friendlies or competitive games. Overall, especially after the recent huge nerf to Deathmarks, I can hardly recommend them over Immortals anymore. D&D is still cool, but else...very meh.

 Sigvatr wrote:
after the recent huge nerf to Deathmarks.

... what "huge nerf" are you talking about?

 skoffs wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
after the recent huge nerf to Deathmarks.

... what "huge nerf" are you talking about?

^^ This. I seemed to have overlooked it myself.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
after the recent huge nerf to Deathmarks.

... what "huge nerf" are you talking about?

^^ This. I seemed to have overlooked it myself.

Each unit of Deathmarks can now only mark a single enemy unit per game. This means that marking yet another unit every single time they use the Veil of Darkness is no longer possible.


However, I don't see that as a 'Nerf', because I never once abused that game-breaking RAW combo. I see the FAQ as instead saying "Deathmarks are just as awesome as they aways were, if you weren't being TFG all along".


That being said, make 10x Deathmarks. I frequently run two units of a Despairtek w/ VoD and 5x Deathmarks. They hunt Long Fangs, and do so very well. (each unit marks a unit of Long Fangs, and then team up against the 3rd)

That wasn't a nerf in that it was simply an official "no" to a question we obviously already knew the answer to. RAI wins again.

What azazel said. Since it was legal RAW-wise, lots of people at local tournaments pulled it off and most of the time (all but 1 tournament) they got through it.

So, yes, it's a nerf. Despair + 5x Deathmarks is the only saving grace those guys have now.

Ah yes, I did see that. Like Az said, I never once attempted to pull that off so I just kind of shrugged when I first read it.

Deathmarks only being allowed to mark a single unit is a "nerf" like not being allowed to Congo line scarabs across the table with 9 Spyders for a first turn assault was a "nerf": only a-holes care.
The rest of us who had already been playing them the way they were MEANT to be played have lost nothing.

(I saw this round of FAQs as a big middle finger to RAW abusing power gamers)

Though in that vein, what were all the FAQ changes that might affect our codex?
- Deathmarks only marking a single unit per game
- Units embarked on Nightscythes don't take crash damage
- ????

Does anyone know if some of the other codex FAQs covered any 'Cron stuff, too?

 skoffs wrote:
Deathmarks only being allowed to mark a single unit is a "nerf" like not being allowed to Congo line scarabs across the table with 9 Spyders for a first turn assault was a "nerf": only a-holes care.
The rest of us who had already been playing them the way they were MEANT to be played have lost nothing.

(I saw this round of FAQs as a big middle finger to RAW abusing power gamers)

Though in that vein, what were all the FAQ changes that might affect our codex?
- Deathmarks only marking a single unit per game
- Units embarked on Nightscythes don't take crash damage
- ????

Does anyone know if some of the other codex FAQs covered any 'Cron stuff, too?

That was pretty much it, at least as far as what directly covered the Necron dex. Some of the BRB rulings might have some impact on them though I don't recall anything off the top of my head.

So... JotWW still affects jump infantry then, I'm guessing?
:/

I agree with Skoffs, the Night Scythe ruling is a total FU to rule lawyers.

As it should be.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
As it should be.

No doubt, finally something we can all agree on . It was pretty baffling that people actually tried to argue otherwise.

Well, what were some of the other changes of note that happened in the other codex/BRB FAQs?
(just so we know what to keep in mind when playing against them)

The biggest change was the clarification that units with weapons that have multiple ranges, can now wound all models in a unit if they have range and LOS with even just 1 model.

For example, if we have a squad of 10 warriors vs a unit of tactical marines; the marines can have range to only 1 of our warriors with all of their bolters but if they have a lascannon in the squad with range to the other 9 warriors, now all of the warriors can be taken as casualties even if the lascanon was firing snaps and it doesn't even need to hit or wound, only to be fired in range.

We Necrons on the other hand don't have acces to many mixed weapon squads, so we are less in a position to take advantage of this rule. Destroyers and squads lead by RC Crypteks, I believe are our only squads that can do this.

NecronLord3 wrote:The biggest change was the clarification that units with weapons that have multiple ranges, can now wound all models in a unit if they have range and LOS with even just 1 model.

For example, if we have a squad of 10 warriors vs a unit of tactical marines; the marines can have range to only 1 of our warriors with all of their bolters but if they have a lascannon in the squad with range to the other 9 warriors, now all of the warriors can be taken as casualties even if the lascanon was firing snaps and it doesn't even need to hit or wound, only to be fired in range.

We Necrons on the other hand don't have acces to many mixed weapon squads, so we are less in a position to take advantage of this rule. Destroyers and squads lead by RC Crypteks, I believe are our only squads that can do this.

But that is still a pretty big boon for the already-super-mobile Destroyers. Now mixed units are even more beneficial.

But that is still a pretty big boon for the already-super-mobile Destroyers. Now mixed units are even more beneficial.

Exactly. Now if you are 23.9" away from the closest model on a flank, and the unit you are shooting at is reasonably spaced, you can easily knock the unit out of their threat range with enough casualties.

Hang on, I think I'm not quite getting it here.
So let's say I've got a unit of 20 Warriors. Attached is a Harbinger of Destruction.
What exactly does the Destr-tek's increased range do for them?

skoffs wrote:Hang on, I think I'm not quite getting it here.
So let's say I've got a unit of 20 Warriors. Attached is a Harbinger of Destruction.
What exactly does the Destr-tek's increased range do for them?

Let's you've got 20 Warriors, and you are 23.9 inches away from them, such that only a single model from the enemy unit is actually within range if your Warriors. Your unit shoots, scoring 13 hits, which results in 6 wounds. All 6 of those wounds must be allocated to the single enemy model that was actually within range of your Warriors. If that model dies to a single wound, then the remaining 5 are lost (or more specifically, they are still allocated to the dead model; making that model, uh, extra dead.)

Now, let's say you've got 20 Warriors and a Destructek, and you are 23.9 inches away from them, such that only a single model from the enemy unit is actually within range of the Warriors. But, thanks for the 36" range of the Destructek, the entire enemy unit is within his range. Your unit shoots, again scoring 13 hits, which results in 6 wounds. Those 6 wounds can now be allocated to the whole unit, because the whole unit is within the range of at least one of your models (the Destructek); even though that model has an entirely different gun.

Even if the Destructek misses and scores not hits of his own, this rule still applies; thus allowing your 20 Necron warriors to effectively allocate wounds to a unit in a similar style as they could back in 5th Edition. However, the enemy unit must still have at least one model within range of the Warriors for this to work. It doesn't affect the actual range of the Warriors; it just affects the manner in which wounds are allocated.

Eh....wait. Does that mean that when I have a squad of 4 normal Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer, my normal Destroyers now get to hit everything at 36''?

I really doubt that's what GW was going for.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Eh....wait. Does that mean that when I have a squad of 4 normal Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer, my normal Destroyers now get to hit everything at 36''?

I really doubt that's what GW was going for.

I'm in agreement, but the FAQ does only really lead to one interpretation. Personally, I don't plan on relying on this mechanism until GW further clarifies in another FAQ. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Ye, pretty sure that's just a mistake they made. I mean, a squad with pistols and a lascannon suddenly gets 36'' pistols? 3x the normal range? Highly, highly doubtful.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Eh....wait. Does that mean that when I have a squad of 4 normal Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer, my normal Destroyers now get to hit everything at 36''?

I really doubt that's what GW was going for.

No, you are able to allocate wounds in the wound pool, that you normally would not be able to do, past 24'.

You still have to be in the 24' range to hit them, but now, instead of being unable to allocate wounds beyond that weapons range, you can if you have a weapon in the squad that has increased range.

Yes, not sure what the 23.9" was referencing? You must still be able to draw range from each of your models firing to at least 1 model in the opposing unit. You just have the added benefit of causing more potential wounds when you include a Cryptek or other long ranged option in mixed Armour squads.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Eh....wait. Does that mean that when I have a squad of 4 normal Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer, my normal Destroyers now get to hit everything at 36''?

I really doubt that's what GW was going for.

Only if there is at least on model in that unit with 24". If the entire units is outside of 24" (but within 36") only the Heavy D can hit and wound the unit. As Azazel said it brings it more functionally inline with the way 5th worked mechanically. Personally I kinda wish they treated each weapon profile separately as far as wound field, although I suppose that could open up some sort of exploit they were trying to eliminate. One thing this does do is put a premium on the range of your special weapons. Plasma/Melta/(and Storm for us) has kind of taken the drivers seat over Las/Missile/Lance etc. Now their is much more incentive to stick that 36 to 48" weapon in your squad. Its a little hokey on the "realism" factor but I do like what it does for the game mechanics.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Eh....wait. Does that mean that when I have a squad of 4 normal Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer, my normal Destroyers now get to hit everything at 36''?

I really doubt that's what GW was going for.

No. I don't think that is it.

A model must still be able to hit a target with it's weapon range to fire at it.

Say for some reason you have a squad of Guardsmen standing around. You've got a squad of 20 Warriors and a Harbinger of Destruction w/Eldritch Lance. The Warriors materialize just out of reach of most of the squad of Guardsmen but they are all still in reach of only one Guardsman who fell behind. They blast him to hell. He takes a load of wounds. He dies. The rest of the wounds are wasted.

The guy with the Lance can fire 36 inches - and if he does so - hit or miss - all of his Warrior buddies wound's can now apply to the other Guardsmen, even if they are out of reach of the model they are wounding

Sigvatr wrote:Eh....wait. Does that mean that when I have a squad of 4 normal Destroyers and 1 Heavy Destroyer, my normal Destroyers now get to hit everything at 36''?

I really doubt that's what GW was going for.

No, it means that if one a single enemy model is within range of the normal Destroyers, but the entire enemy unit is within range of the Heavy Destroyer, then the wounds caused by the normal Destroyers can still be allocated to the rest of the enemy unit, rather than all being forced onto the only model within their actual range. They still have to be able to hit at least one enemy model still within their regular range, though.

Hmm, this doesn't bode well.
Only a matter of time before all manner of abuse is discovered...

I think the major change will be, at least to Necrons, will be that running at least one Royal Court split into your squads will be needed now if you want your infantry to do anything.
Necrons need to dance at that 24" in range unless they plan on wiping the unit they are shooting at out. Having a Destructo-tek in a squad of Immortals will really bump up their kill rates at that 24".
I need to play a few games with this, but I am guessing it will just be a new wrinkle in the game, not a game changer.

For those that are confused about the new shooting rules.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/01/kill-zones-40k-shooting-post-faq/

This new faq is a definite nerf to tesla weapons. If you generate additional attacks from Tesla weapons and the range falls short you would not be able to wound with those additional attacks.

 sounddemon wrote:
This new faq is a definite nerf to tesla weapons. If you generate additional attacks from Tesla weapons and the range falls short you would not be able to wound with those additional attacks.

Depends. I can now focus on certain models too by carefully maneuvering around so that only those are in range that you really want to take out - you maximize the wounds to those models.

Sigvatr wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
This new faq is a definite nerf to tesla weapons. If you generate additional attacks from Tesla weapons and the range falls short you would not be able to wound with those additional attacks.

Depends. I can now focus on certain models too by carefully maneuvering around so that only those are in range that you really want to take out - you maximize the wounds to those models.

This. Combined with being able to measure whenever you feel like it, it makes the super-mobile Heavy Destroyers some of the best sniping units in 40k; the only defense is to physically bury your Sergeant into the middle of the unit (which really helps to prevent a model's 2+ save from sheltering an entire unit.)

 Sigvatr wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
This new faq is a definite nerf to tesla weapons. If you generate additional attacks from Tesla weapons and the range falls short you would not be able to wound with those additional attacks.

Depends. I can now focus on certain models too by carefully maneuvering around so that only those are in range that you really want to take out - you maximize the wounds to those models.

Unless I'm missing something, wounds are still allocated on a closest to furthest basis, so weren't you able to do the same thing that you described by just positioning it so that the models you wanted to kill were closest to you anyways?

Its actually much harder to snipe post FAQ. Prior to the ruling, you could argue that only certain models were even potential casualties, now you can more easily put a wound on a model of similar distance or if equally distant the owning player chooses. Not to mention that using LoS has always allowed wounds to go to modes out of LOS and range.

I'm still a bit new but from all the games I've never really had any situations come up that this new FAQ ruling would change much at all. I can think of a few minor situations but if anyone can extrapolate on how this could really "shake things up" then it'd be much appreciated.

Budikah wrote:I'm still a bit new but from all the games I've never really had any situations come up that this new FAQ ruling would change much at all. I can think of a few minor situations but if anyone can extrapolate on how this could really "shake things up" then it'd be much appreciated.

I'm afraid I can't. This FAQ generally didn't change anything for most Necron players; the most sensible RAI interpretations were almost uniformly answered to be concordant with RAW.

So after reading that 3plusplus article, would I be correct in assuming that adding multiple Despair-teks to my Death & Despair squads, instead of just the one, would be a very good idea?

Let's say you're playing 4x Overlords in a double force org 2000 point game.
You've got four separate Royal Courts, meaning it's possible to attach up to 4 Despair-teks to your Deathmark squads.
Turn two comes around, your Nightscythes fly in, dropping your D&D squad off in front of a group of 10 Terminators.
The way you've positioned your Despair-teks only allows three of the Termies to be covered by the flame template.
But you've got, let's say, 4 Despair-teks in the squad, so those three Termies get covered by the templates four times for a total of 12 hits.
As they'll be wounding on a 2+, let's say they end up doing 9 wounds.
NORMALLY, because there were only three Termies in range of the flame templates, all 9 wounds would only be able to allocated to them.
BUT, as per this FAQ, because the Deathmarks have 24" range, now all 9 wounds caused by the Despair-teks can be allocated to the entire unit of Terminators.
...
right?

skoffs wrote:So after reading that 3plusplus article, would I be correct in assuming that adding multiple Despair-teks to my Death & Despair squads, instead of just the one, would be a very good idea?

Let's say you're playing 4x Overlords in a double force org 2000 point game.
You've got four separate Royal Courts, meaning it's possible to attach up to 4 Despair-teks to your Deathmark squads.
Turn two comes around, your Nightscythes fly in, dropping your D&D squad off in front of a group of 10 Terminators.
The way you've positioned your Despair-teks only allows three of the Termies to be covered by the flame template.
But you've got, let's say, 4 Despair-teks in the squad, so those three Termies get covered by the templates four times for a total of 12 hits.
As they'll be wounding on a 2+, let's say they end up doing 9 wounds.
NORMALLY, because there were only three Termies in range of the flame templates, all 9 wounds would only be able to allocated to them.
BUT, as per this FAQ, because the Deathmarks have 24" range, now all 9 wounds caused by the Despair-teks can be allocated to the entire unit of Terminators.
...
right?

Correct.

Excellent.
*amends army lists accordingly*

There is just so much better cheese you can pull off with a double FOC, than wasting points on RCs, IMO.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There is just so much better cheese you can pull off with a double FOC, than wasting points on RCs, IMO.

Yea like 4 destroyer lords kitted out...

Tomb King wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There is just so much better cheese you can pull off with a double FOC, than wasting points on RCs, IMO.

Yea like 4 destroyer lords kitted out...

As scary as that is, it's also going to cost you close to 700 points.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There is just so much better cheese you can pull off with a double FOC, than wasting points on RCs, IMO.

Yea like 4 destroyer lords kitted out...

As scary as that is, it's also going to cost you close to 700 points.

I'm sure I've got to find more opponents eventually - but my decked out Destroyer Lord has always claimed his points and more. He's such a mobile threat to just about anything. Fancy tank? Hit it with your stick. Fancy man with a hat? Challenge him, have him slap himself, and then hit him with your stick.

His high toughness and overall maneuverability really make him a force to be reckoned with. I guess four of them would be too much though. You'd get more benefit at that point from tossing a RC in the mix.

I always try to have at least one Royal Court available to me.
They're just too handy to avoid.
I don't usually play double force org games, but when I have, I've run two of each (2x Destroyer Lords, 2x Overlord level HQ).
Seems to serve me well enough, but I do think I'd like to experiment with this new kill zone FAQ update for a bit, just to see what it can do.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There is just so much better cheese you can pull off with a double FOC, than wasting points on RCs, IMO.

Hmmm...

Trazyn
DLord
Nemesor
Stormtek (Lightning)
Stormtek (Lightning)
Stormtek (Lightning)
8xSword and Board LG
NightScythe
(Plus Olord elsewhere)
Sure, it's like 1000+ Points...but man, would be fun to play with. Enough Anti-Tank to taint punch anything, resilient as nails with the 9 S/B LG+Res Orb, no-one will want to assault you with the 3X Lightning, Nemesor to give you Stealth/FC/CA as needed... Delicious. Oh, yeah, and Preferred Enemy from the DLord just for funsies...and it scores and laughs at Hordes because of Mr. Infinite. Sounds like fun.

How do Necrons handle CSM? I saw a necron list get absolutely obliterated by a CSM list that was allied with IG. It had a helldrake, a vendetta, aegis defense line. Had a Khrone lord on bike with axe of biting fury, cheap cultiests and IG troops and command squad. And it had 2 vindicators, 1 autocannon havoc squad and a leman Russ to boot.

That CSM list literally tabled the necron army it faced. Wraiths got shot to bits before they even reached him (not that they would have done very well against that Khorne lord). And any troops and vehicles got pie plated or shot to death. The fliers were killed by the Aegis and the vendetta, and the helldrake burned up anything that was left on the ground.

... well, what exactly did the Necron player have?

The usual. Wraiths, Zandrek special charecter necron lord, 2 nightscythes, necron warriors, 1 squad of immortals, annihilation barges, and 1 forge world tomb spider (tomb scorpian?). I believe there was a catacomb command barge with a generic necron lord in there too.

Wraiths got shot to bits before they even reached him (not that they would have done very well against that Khorne lord).

1. If the Wraiths were "trying to reach him" against CSM he was doing it wrong. Definitly an army you would want to hide your Wraiths against and counter assault the Lord or any other CC element with.

2. Pretty sure Wraiths would do just fine against a bike lord. They should strike first and that T5 and 3+ will only hold out so long against S6 and rending. And if the bike lord doesn't double T (which most versions I see have the axe and don't), then the Wraiths could hang a couple rounds even if they have trouble killing him.

Except that in this case, I think he was coming under heavy fire from all the blast templates dropping all over the place, plus the hell drake bale flamer. He was actually getting outshot by the CSM player, surprisingly.

It was the chaos player who was keeping his khorne lord as a counter charge unit.

DarkyNWO wrote:
Hey yo guys! Awesome thread, learned a lot from it!

So question. I bought 20 immortals/deathmarks, but suddenly I have no idea how I want to assemble them. First I figured 20 immortals, but then after reading on the deathmarks, they seem really cool, but is it worth
making all ten of them into deathmarks? Cause it seems improbable to make 15 immortals and 5 deathmarks, since you can't use 15 immortals in a squad, and you'd probably never run with a 5man immortal squad.
Thoughts?

Well if its not to late to input some suggestion, I made from one box of immortals both squads Just take front of warriors torso, pair of legs, some green stuff and imo they look just fine That is ofc if You have any 'spare' warriors to discart but imo, was worth the price

 Lithzur wrote:

DarkyNWO wrote:
Hey yo guys! Awesome thread, learned a lot from it!

So question. I bought 20 immortals/deathmarks, but suddenly I have no idea how I want to assemble them. First I figured 20 immortals, but then after reading on the deathmarks, they seem really cool, but is it worth
making all ten of them into deathmarks? Cause it seems improbable to make 15 immortals and 5 deathmarks, since you can't use 15 immortals in a squad, and you'd probably never run with a 5man immortal squad.
Thoughts?

Well if its not to late to input some suggestion, I made from one box of immortals both squads Just take front of warriors torso, pair of legs, some green stuff and imo they look just fine That is ofc if You have any 'spare' warriors to discart but imo, was worth the price

This post needs more emoticons.



...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
How do Necrons handle CSM? I saw a necron list get absolutely obliterated by a CSM list that was allied with IG. It had a helldrake, a vendetta, aegis defense line. Had a Khrone lord on bike with axe of biting fury, cheap cultiests and IG troops and command squad. And it had 2 vindicators, 1 autocannon havoc squad and a leman Russ to boot.

That CSM list literally tabled the necron army it faced. Wraiths got shot to bits before they even reached him (not that they would have done very well against that Khorne lord). And any troops and vehicles got pie plated or shot to death. The fliers were killed by the Aegis and the vendetta, and the helldrake burned up anything that was left on the ground.

I think the answer is gonna be more Night Scythes. I see that in the near future the Flying Circus will become less and less cheesy.

solar pule + KFF from ork allies. for 2+ cover above 24''

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:

DarkyNWO wrote:
Hey yo guys! Awesome thread, learned a lot from it!

So question. I bought 20 immortals/deathmarks, but suddenly I have no idea how I want to assemble them. First I figured 20 immortals, but then after reading on the deathmarks, they seem really cool, but is it worth
making all ten of them into deathmarks? Cause it seems improbable to make 15 immortals and 5 deathmarks, since you can't use 15 immortals in a squad, and you'd probably never run with a 5man immortal squad.
Thoughts?

Well if its not to late to input some suggestion, I made from one box of immortals both squads Just take front of warriors torso, pair of legs, some green stuff and imo they look just fine That is ofc if You have any 'spare' warriors to discart but imo, was worth the price

This post needs more emoticons.



...

will do as U wish, next time



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And saying about 'flying circus' gotta ask for Your opinion
One of mine gaming friends who leads CHSM of nurgle starting to annoy me by shelling his obligateratos and termies ( not to mention about that damn Epidemius ) with meat of cultist and spawns...both of mine AB and most of warriors where Lcanonned before they popped all that mess leaving me hard time to have chance for solid reply....
So i have this idea and im not sure if it would work...
- use DB instead of AB for distance and more STR/AP
- 2x NS droping orbOL + 6x LG with shields and DL + 5x Wraiths (in a second NS that is)
- Dtek + Vailtek and buntch of 8x DM, DSing on their backs
All ofc landing on enemy backs while warriors and DA do as meatgrinder for spawns and cultists.....
Any sugestions would be nice

what is the viability of KFF + solar pulse for 2+ cover if you have ork allies over 24"

c18ka wrote:
what is the viability of KFF + solar pulse for 2+ cover if you have ork allies over 24"

KFF gives a 5+ and Shrouded increases it to a 3+, but still, it's certainly viable.

Has anyone used an ADL with their Necrons at all? Busy as I am getting sniped on Ebay when I try to buy some more scarabs, I'm looking at it to plug a 50-100pt hole until I can get hold of scarabs, and I'm wondering how people use it in conjunction with their crons.

First off, does anyone use just a basic ADL without a relay or emplacement? 50pts for 28" of 4+ cover (3+ or even 2+ when used with a Solar Pulse) seems pretty good to me, but everyone I've seen has taken with with a relay or quad gun.

Second, how would a quad gun fit in to a Necron list? Especially one that already has 2 Annihilation Barges? Would it be worth it for actually having Skyfire (therefore allowing the barges to chew on other stuff, or finish off a flier)? Would it be worth it just to have 4 S7 shots at over 24" for once?

I'm not interested in the relay or icarus personally (not planning to buy a bastion at all, not even for the emplacements), but there might be people who would use them, so feel free to give your opinions on those, too.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Has anyone used an ADL with their Necrons at all? Busy as I am getting sniped on Ebay when I try to buy some more scarabs, I'm looking at it to plug a 50-100pt hole until I can get hold of scarabs, and I'm wondering how people use it in conjunction with their crons.

First off, does anyone use just a basic ADL without a relay or emplacement? 50pts for 28" of 4+ cover (3+ or even 2+ when used with a Solar Pulse) seems pretty good to me, but everyone I've seen has taken with with a relay or quad gun.

Second, how would a quad gun fit in to a Necron list? Especially one that already has 2 Annihilation Barges? Would it be worth it for actually having Skyfire (therefore allowing the barges to chew on other stuff, or finish off a flier)? Would it be worth it just to have 4 S7 shots at over 24" for once?

I'm not interested in the relay or icarus personally (not planning to buy a bastion at all, not even for the emplacements), but there might be people who would use them, so feel free to give your opinions on those, too.

The problem with the ADL is that we don't have anything to put behind it with significant range. You could however place it 6" infront of your deployment zone and have 2 small squads of Warriors with 2 Destroteks in each squad to move up behind it turn 1. Maybe even adding a Scarab swarm since the ADL would block complete LOS to them.

I've been using the ADL very successfully. It makes a great bunker for my warriors and I place an objective really close so that they can claim it, man the quad, and keep the cover save. When shrouded you get a nice 2+ cover save. Who cares if you can reach anything with your 24" range? Your warriors are their to survive and claim objectives, not massacre opposing units, which they are terrible at.

Also when using allies there are allot of good units to place in the ADL, I've kept just an inquisitor there to operate the quad.

I've been tempted to toss in an ADL but then I picked up the codex and said:
"Let me just thumb through this and find the best and cheapest BS 5 character to man the Quad gun and I will ju-"
then I just stop WE HAVE NO BS 5 GUYS! If I wanted to put a C'tan on it or pray for Okra-man to turn, well, I would just quit playing 40k.

Aside from that, I've again almost used it to use the Comms Relay so I could make sure my air planes came in to pew pew faster. But then again, no one really wants to stand behind it all game. I use my 5-man warriors from reserve to claim my back objective, otherwise I'm mobile.

What about keeping Scarabs infront of your Immortals/Warriors behind the defense line? If someone came up to assault you, well, they couldn't, right? Your scarabs would be butted up right to the line and couldn't been seen, right? If you can't see it, you can't charge it, right? And you can't charge the dudes behind them, because, uh, there's Scarabs there!!! How does this work?

Night scythes are the answer to most of the new lists but not the only answer. Zhandrek is better now - being able to repond to a reserve flyer is very good. Destrukteqs and veilteqs are good. Wraiths are okay only as a distraction.

So Zhandrek, a lord, two squads of teqs, in ghost arks stolen from a few min warrior squads, and the rest troops in night scythes. Maybe anni barges if points allow. It's a shooting game you also need troops.

It's a little spammy and boring if you want to play competitive Necs without allies. I'm not knocking the elites and fast attack units as being bad units. They just are not enough in 6ed to sway games.

 felixcat wrote:
Zhandrek, a lord, two squads of teqs, in ghost arks stolen from a few min warrior squads

What exactly do you mean by this?

Use Phased Reinforcement or use Nightfight to stop enemy from shooting down the Scythes as they arrive piecemeal. When seting up Nemesor and Lord have no transport. Tweo min warrior groups can have them and give them to the lords and despairteks, lanceteqs. The other warriors are all in night Scythes spam. You can even have some deathmarks in a scythe or a few anni barges. That is the whole list. Night fight should allow your scythes to come in relatively unmolested and then use tesla and gauss where appropriate.

 felixcat wrote:

Night scythes are the answer to most of the new lists but not the only answer. Zhandrek is better now - being able to repond to a reserve flyer is very good. Destrukteqs and veilteqs are good. Wraiths are okay only as a distraction.

So Zhandrek, a lord, two squads of teqs, in ghost arks stolen from a few min warrior squads, and the rest troops in night scythes. Maybe anni barges if points allow. It's a shooting game you also need troops.

It's a little spammy and boring if you want to play competitive Necs without allies. I'm not knocking the elites and fast attack units as being bad units. They just are not enough in 6ed to sway games.

That's interesting, aside from Wraiths, Warriors and one vieltek I don't take a single unit that you mentioned, and do quite fine competitively speaking.

I think the Necron codex is extremely versatile with several synergistic modes you can design your army in, its just all about finding the right pieces for each particular puzzle.

It's expensive but I like the C'tan in an ADL. Give him something good for CC, like Times Arrow or GoD, or LoF for cheapness. Each shot a C'tan makes has the potential for precision and it's twin linked BS5. The C'tan is ideally suited to hang back and defend a position like an ADL with an objective. Also giving the C'tan Swarm of Spirit dust will give it a 3+ cover on top of its 4++. The downside is that it is just damn expensive.

 felixcat wrote:
Tweo min warrior groups can have them and give them to the lords and despairteks, lanceteqs.
[...]
You can even have some deathmarks in a scythe

... why on earth would anyone stick a Despair-tek in a Ghost Ark, especially if you were planning on using Deatkmarks in a Nightscythe as well?

 NecronLord3 wrote:
It's expensive but I like the C'tan in an ADL. Give him something good for CC, like Times Arrow or GoD, or LoF for cheapness. Each shot a C'tan makes has the potential for precision and it's twin linked BS5. The C'tan is ideally suited to hang back and defend a position like an ADL with an objective. Also giving the C'tan Swarm of Spirit dust will give it a 3+ cover on top of its 4++. The downside is that it is just damn expensive.

Oh yeah, the C'Tan is a character isn't he...hmmmm, that makes Pyreshards quite a bit more intriguing. Pyreshard/Thunderbolt for maximum pewpew. Still super expensive.

Hey, since the C'Tan is an MC can he shoot the Quadgun as well as an additional weapon?

Has anyone considered running some Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers behind a line. Take advantage of the range and preferred enemy bonus shooting down fliers.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
It's expensive but I like the C'tan in an ADL. Give him something good for CC, like Times Arrow or GoD, or LoF for cheapness. Each shot a C'tan makes has the potential for precision and it's twin linked BS5. The C'tan is ideally suited to hang back and defend a position like an ADL with an objective. Also giving the C'tan Swarm of Spirit dust will give it a 3+ cover on top of its 4++. The downside is that it is just damn expensive.

Oh yeah, the C'Tan is a character isn't he...hmmmm, that makes Pyreshards quite a bit more intriguing. Pyreshard/Thunderbolt for maximum pewpew. Still super expensive.

Hey, since the C'Tan is an MC can he shoot the Quadgun as well as an additional weapon?

I don't think so as you fire the quad instead of your own gun as far as RAW is concerned, though I would double check as I don't have my RB with me ATM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IGotBodied wrote:
Has anyone considered running some Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers behind a line. Take advantage of the range and preferred enemy bonus shooting down fliers.

It works, but their height make it difficult to claim the save. The quad doesn't greatly benefit from preferred enemy as it is already twinlinked so you get the reroll to hit on anything, not just 1. You can't use PE on Armour pen rolls, only wounds and only rolls of 1. Also the Destroyers have no way to split fire so all their shots are going at 1 target and you don't get enough shots with heavies to be reliable and the regulars aren't dependable either. The only benefit is to use the quad and heavies against grounded infantry targets. I have used them on the ADL, but in smaller cheaper units.

why on earth would anyone stick a Despair-tek in a Ghost Ark, especially if you were planning on using Deatkmarks in a Nightscythe as well?

You would not ... should be despairteq/lancetek of course. Happens when you post quickly without thinking. But you get the general idea. I use Necrons only
as aliies so playing a full force I can only go by what is fielded successfully against me. I don't like Wraiths but I can handle them if need be. I'm much more
worried about night sycthe spam in general as there are so many tricks you can play with them - stromteqs, enetering at 45 degree angles anfd then retreating
90 degrees next turn towards the edge and firing away both turns. Late objective grabbers, AA, and on and on. As allies they simply rock. I use them in my
Chaos Khorne list:

HQ: Necron Overlord, Warscythe 100
HQ:Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut, Power Lance, Veterans of the Long War, Meltabombs, Sigil of Corruption, Dimensional Key 185
Elites: 3x 1 Mutilator, Mark of Khorne 180
Troops: 2x 5 Warriors, Harbinger of the Storm, Night Scythe 380
Troops: 2x 16 Khorne Berserkers, Veteran's of the Long War, Icon of Wrath, Champion, Power Axe, Meltabomb 730
Troops: 2x 20 Cultists, 2 Heavy Stubbers 200
Heavy Support: 3x 1 Obliterator, Mark of Khorne 212

Command barge and night scythes are much better than heldrakes in this list. Chaos players need to cotton on to the superiority of adding Necron allies
to shore the codex's obvious weakness.

and likewise, as Necron's biggest weakness is combat, the alliance works quite well the other way around, too.
... though, with Khorne, from a fluff perspective, I would have assumed Destroyers would have fit in better...

 felixcat wrote:

why on earth would anyone stick a Despair-tek in a Ghost Ark, especially if you were planning on using Deatkmarks in a Nightscythe as well?

You would not ... should be despairteq/lancetek of course. Happens when you post quickly without thinking. But you get the general idea. I use Necrons only
as aliies so playing a full force I can only go by what is fielded successfully against me. I don't like Wraiths but I can handle them if need be. I'm much more
worried about night sycthe spam in general as there are so many tricks you can play with them - stromteqs, enetering at 45 degree angles anfd then retreating
90 degrees next turn towards the edge and firing away both turns. Late objective grabbers, AA, and on and on. As allies they simply rock. I use them in my
Chaos Khorne list:

HQ: Necron Overlord, Warscythe 100
HQ:Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut, Power Lance, Veterans of the Long War, Meltabombs, Sigil of Corruption, Dimensional Key 185
Elites: 3x 1 Mutilator, Mark of Khorne 180
Troops: 2x 5 Warriors, Harbinger of the Storm, Night Scythe 380
Troops: 2x 16 Khorne Berserkers, Veteran's of the Long War, Icon of Wrath, Champion, Power Axe, Meltabomb 730
Troops: 2x 20 Cultists, 2 Heavy Stubbers 200
Heavy Support: 3x 1 Obliterator, Mark of Khorne 212

Command barge and night scythes are much better than heldrakes in this list. Chaos players need to cotton on to the superiority of adding Necron allies
to shore the codex's obvious weakness.

Wow, that's got to be one of the more unique builds I've seen. Lance/Key on the Khorne Lord, and the Muti's in particular. I actually like it quite a bit.

I actually like this idea of Chaos + Necrons, I may have to slap 500 points of necrons into a Nurgle shooty list to see what I can do. An annihilation barge or doomsday ark would give me better anti tank and give me more points for troops or a helldrake.

I'm thinking of dropping the lance two cultists w/ stubbrers and adding in the AoBF just for giggles. Don't know what is best yet. The power lance looks very cool and is not bad for the points but it is no where near as effective as the AoBF and it's easy to fit in without hurting theb list. Two heavy stubbers will not make much of a difference.

Here's an allied list i threw together one night

http://40k4life.blogspot.com/2013/01/double-dragon-cron.html?m=1

It's a decent list but it does not address the lack of cc elements in a Nec list. You can get wraiths of course but two squads of 'zerkers and a juggy lord will do a ton of damage. Your list is quite f=good but a completely different approach. I can just hear you going 'swoosh', 'swoosh' all game long.

Here's a question for the peanut gallery - what do I add next to my force?

3 Lords/Overlords
1 DLord
32 Warriors
10 Immortals
6 Scarabs
2 Annihilation Barges
2 Hvy/Reg Destroyers

I was thinking of grabbing 6x Wraiths - but they're extremely pricey. I could get 2x Night Scythes instead. I feel like I'm severely lacking any way to deal with close combat and my friend loves to get his Blood Angels right up in my face and hack me to bits. Any suggestions on what to add next? I usually proxy in my Cryptek fairly easily so I'd rather ignore those for the time being - I'm more or less looking to fill a gap which seems to be transports and melee-centric units.

Suggestions?

 Budikah wrote:
Here's a question for the peanut gallery - what do I add next to my force?

3 Lords/Overlords
1 DLord
32 Warriors
10 Immortals
6 Scarabs
2 Annihilation Barges
2 Hvy/Reg Destroyers

I was thinking of grabbing 6x Wraiths - but they're extremely pricey. I could get 2x Night Scythes instead. I feel like I'm severely lacking any way to deal with close combat and my friend loves to get his Blood Angels right up in my face and hack me to bits. Any suggestions on what to add next? I usually proxy in my Cryptek fairly easily so I'd rather ignore those for the time being - I'm more or less looking to fill a gap which seems to be transports and melee-centric units.

Suggestions?

If you want close combat, you absolutely cannot beat wraiths. Warscythes will hit harder, but wraiths can get into combat fast, and they tend to shrug off most damage thrown at them.

For the moment I'm thinking 6x wraiths and a night scythe would do me the best.

... seriously, people, we have a forum for posting army lists.
Tactica threads should really be for tactics discussion, no?

 skoffs wrote:
... seriously, people, we have a forum for posting army lists.
Tactica threads should really be for tactics discussion, no?

I had that debate with myself before I posted this. I figured it was more of a tactical choice rather than a fully pointed list looking for critique. I've got no issue moving it if it's that big of an issue.

it's not a MASSIVE issue, but if new kids come along and see people posting their army lists looking for critique, suddenly the entire thread will become a "hey guys, what do you think about my list?" thread.
(hence the reason we try to discourage it)

 Brymm wrote:
I've been tempted to toss in an ADL but then I picked up the codex and said:
"Let me just thumb through this and find the best and cheapest BS 5 character to man the Quad gun and I will ju-"
then I just stop WE HAVE NO BS 5 GUYS! If I wanted to put a C'tan on it or pray for Okra-man to turn, well, I would just quit playing 40k.

What about a Tomb Blade with Nebuloscope for 25 points?
Granted, a turn sequence like this would get dizzy: Move to other side of Quad gun (or just move in a circle around the Quad gun and end up where you started) (I moved... I get jink). Fire Quad gun. Rinse. Repeat.

Saying about more tactical approach need to ask for Your opinion about LG's. In which wargear You table them, more arms power with warscythe or more durability with shields and phase sword ?
Just got myself box of them and not sure what should i choose.....

 Lithzur wrote:
Saying about more tactical approach need to ask for Your opinion about LG's. In which wargear You table them, more arms power with warscythe or more durability with shields and phase sword ?
Just got myself box of them and not sure what should i choose.....

Do not field them, far too expensive for what they bring and not worth their points. I've seen people using Anraykr and a unit of LG , but comp-wise, they suck.

Either use the box to make Crypteks or make TP, they fare well with a DL.

If you want close combat, you absolutely cannot beat wraiths. Warscythes will hit harder, but wraiths can get into combat fast, and they tend to shrug off most damage thrown at them.

And here is the rub. A Dlord with wraiths is a great cc squad but if you want a cc squad to take down termies you need a DLord with praetorians which I hardy ever see Necron players using. I know there are issued with praetorians ... don't get me wrong but we need to fill in the gaps in our lists. Right now we have plenty of AA, AT and anti-infantry. A few deathmark squads in Night scythes, a few warrior squads in scythes and one in a ghost ark and a some depairteqs and stormteqs and most of our needs are filled. The we need to decide what HQ we want. Do we still want barge lords or do we use Nemesor - I've beaten the stormlord HQ on too many occasions to have in him for myself. Do we take a secondary HQ in the DLord? Or just use Nemesor and a regular Lord?

Since I use Necs only as a small allied detachment my experience with a full Nec list is what I have faced and what gives me headaches. By far Nemesor is the hardest HQ for me to get around with phased reinforcements. It means as many scythes as my opponent wants generally can arrive turn one/two safely unless I use no reserves - which is never. How many armies fully deploy on turn one? These lists set up a devastating turn for my opponent and I need to be very careful how I deploy to counteract. And generally there are already a least a few barges and an ghost arc on the table. I think Necrons overall are one of my toughest match ups. Which is why I use them myself as allies.

I see your point Sigvatr, but I alrdy got wraiths hanging out with DL. Mainly wanted to make of them retinue for OL with orb on board of NS for backstabing co-op with DM's. Pretorians are great but OL gona have hard time to chase them up... Thats why I was thinkig about LG's

As far as praetorians go you need to use them with the right list. If you are fielding Nemsor and a Dlord with orb, you get prefered enemy, and your choice of furious charge or counter attack. I would not play Necs without Nemesor if I was using them as my primary force. So it is not a sacrifice. Praetorians in a phased reinforcement list can be quite good.

Alright then but if I field Nemesor, all what I can do with him is to keep him out of LOS as long as possible and take advantage from his specials. Without Oby or MSS's hes no good option for doing anything like add to cc squad or shooty. or i think it is not worth the risk.

I have had some good success with Zahndrekh in the backfield joined to a squad of 3 Heavy Destroyers, and a 2nd decked out Overlord with a squad of 7 Warriors and 2 regular Lords with WSs and one with a SW.

Zahndrekh gves the Destroyers a Metal Shield with the SW, PS, and RO. The Overlord and the Lords can put out 10 WS attacks on the charge for only 500pts. If I get a challege I ask what the other guy is using. If it is AP2 I except with my OL w/ PS, if it is AP3 I just use the regular Lord with the SW.

I should also note I run double Pulseteks with this list. The first turn Zahndrekh gives the Destroyers Night Vision to try and get 1st blood on an easy vehicle. The second turn he usually is giving the other OL something. I look out sir anything that is AP2 after the first wound, and then have him leave the Destroyers and join to the back of the Pulsetek+Warrior squad.

I really like the idea of putting Zahn in with Heavy Destroyers but I think it hampers on one of the main reason to field any form of destroyer at all: mobility. I use mine (when I do) to fly around the flanks and wreck side armor with ease. I can use it to spread my enemy out and make them deal with a mobile threat to their armor that is FAR away from my main force.
When I play Crons, I'll keep most of my army together as most of them have about a 24inch threat range. If I need something dead, I might split off some of the firepower to engage, but usually that doesn't happen till mid-end game. The only time I do something different from this is when I fly wraiths and scarabs up (then I'm playing a different list anywho) or use destroyers as mentioned.
By the way, Zahndrekh rules. How many times have you been asked "what does he do exactly?" or "He doesn't need line of sight for that?" or "What's the range on that power?" Everytime, I chuckle a little bit inside.


Oh and be cautious if you want to "tank" with Zahn. He doesn't have eternal warrior and as I have found out, it just takes one railgun to do him in. "Look out, Sir!" -1-... "Come'on 3+!" -1- ARGH!!!! When I play Chaos, Even if I do have Eternal Warrior (when I use Abby when I play Chaos), I just pretend LOS is another 2+ armor save. My character is always more valuable than the rest of the unit. This is espeically true with Necrons as we have some of the best IC's in the game.

I would field Nemesor at the back with a squad of warriors and destrukteg in an ark with a few Anni barges by his sides. The regular nec player around here does just that and other than a template I cannot touch him. Also night fighting is in efect turn one so his phased reinforcements are generally safer too. This combined with some nifty powers makes him a solid choice.

Now admittedly the list I play against him favors him - drop pod SW. So I need to worry about a lot of units - despairteq deathmarks, night scythes, et all.

How do you guys deal with Blood Angels? I've been playing my friend after his recent switch from Ultrasmurfs to Vampire Jesus Cult and I've been having a hell of a time dealing with his mobility and uncanny ability to get me locked into CC. Fast Vindicators lay waste to any larger units I may have while he flies his Assault Marines at me - usually with a Drop Pod Dreadnaught to take care of my back A. Barge line.

I know he isn't using an optimal list by far and neither am I - but what do you usually take when playing against BA? Are the Storm/Transmog Cryptek's worth it for their anti-charge capabilities? He has been able to reliably engage most of my units in CC by turn 2 or 3 at the latest.

Honestly - if you are going to tailor a list then wraithwing will carve him up if you use two DLord with warscythes, orb, weave and MSS and three squads of wraiths. Everything else in night scythes backed by barges. Good thing is that wraith wing is a rock hard list anyway and fun to play. Charge forward at those vindies early and use night fight turn one a and night scythes turn two.

Tactics question:
Does anyone deep strike their Flyers?
I always just fly mine on from the table edge, but I was wondering if it would be better to try other methods of insertion.
(I'm unsure on the rules for deep strike scatter/mishap, when it comes to flyers, so I don't want my Doomscythe to suddenly and inexplicably explode simply because it appeared flying over a guardsman)

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:
Saying about more tactical approach need to ask for Your opinion about LG's. In which wargear You table them, more arms power with warscythe or more durability with shields and phase sword ?
Just got myself box of them and not sure what should i choose.....

Do not field them, far too expensive for what they bring and not worth their points. I've seen people using Anraykr and a unit of LG , but comp-wise, they suck.

Either use the box to make Crypteks or make TP, they fare well with a DL.

LG are my current project, I've found them intriguing since the Dex dropped but focused my armies in other directions. I know of people using them in conjunction with either Nemesor or Trazyn quite effectively so I'm not sure I would label them far too expensive or sucky.

I think if you run them with Nemesor you should go with the Warscythes, for the potential S8 AP 1 attacks on the charge, plus Stealth+Cover will help mitigate the lack of save.

If Trazyn, Sword and Board, with a MSS/SW/WS/RO Lord.

Either way, Night Scythe, or maybe Oby with Nemie.

And you have to really commit to them. 5 LG will be taken down by focused fire. 8 to 10, especially arriving after two turns of firepower via a Nightschythe...not so much. If you can design them in a list where they get their RP rolls going until they reach CC, I think they have the potential to be quite competitive.

One thing I've noticed is as people get use to the Sword and Board reflecto shot they will naturally push everything back away from the LG (even more so then if they were just another CC unit). Use that to your advantage. Spread out, and keep the enemy away from your long range firepower. What's some really potent long range firepower that this pairs nicely with? Doomsdays, and a couple of them.

Here is a list I'm messing around with at the moment:



Pretty heavy Elite section, which is a bit unorthodox (although that tends to be a running theme for my lists, both heavy elites, and unorthodoxy). The C'Tan is there primarily to augment the Doomsday Arcs,as Grand Illusion tends to make them much more flexible (and survivable) as it dramatically lowers the chances of them getting placed in a bad place. He also combines with the Spyder to protect my back field (particularly the arcs, but my scoring elements as well) from fast/outflanking/DSing CC units. The Spyder of course keeps those big guns doing what they do best.

The LG/Stormtek Squads push the envelope forward and away from the Arcs so they can pewpew all game relatively unabated.

It's actually proven to be quite effective thus far, and extremely fun to play. It's got a decent Air unit with 3 NS, devastating firepower with the 2 DA's, strong anti-tank with the stormteks/Tesla Ds/DAs, very respectable CC with the C'Tan, 10 LG/Trazyn/Lord, and the Spyder. I recommend giving it (or something like it) a go. I still think it needs tweaking, but something along those general lines seems to be working well.

Edit: put my, ahem, visual aid of the army that was inculded for context of my LG tactics discussion under spoiler

Could you please keep Army Lists in the Army-list section?

 skoffs wrote:
Tactics question:
Does anyone deep strike their Flyers?
I always just fly mine on from the table edge, but I was wondering if it would be better to try other methods of insertion.
(I'm unsure on the rules for deep strike scatter/mishap, when it comes to flyers, so I don't want my Doomscythe to suddenly and inexplicably explode simply because it appeared flying over a guardsman)

Disclaimer: At the moment I do not yet own a flyer, but this is my plan with them.

With Zhandrekh as HQ, I would definitely Deepstrike them.
His rulings allow you to put all your Doom Scythes and Night Scythes in the game on T1 if the opponent happens to play with a Drop Pod or other nonsense that Deep Strikes T1.
Against the new DA and many DS-armies you will surely have them on T2.

Well, if one were to deep strike them in on the opponent's turn, where would you place them?
Normally, if I'm going to deep strike, I do so in the hopes to shoot whatever I aim to land next to. If I do that on my opponent's turn, I'm just going to sit there through both THEIR shooting and assault phases. Granted, assault is probably not going to matter most of then time for flyers, but shooting... something tells me this would be a bad idea.

So would you try to place them in enemy territory, or on your own side where it's safe?

 skoffs wrote:
Well, if one were to deep strike them in on the opponent's turn, where would you place them?
Normally, if I'm going to deep strike, I do so in the hopes to shoot whatever I aim to land next to. If I do that on my opponent's turn, I'm just going to sit there through both THEIR shooting and assault phases. Granted, assault is probably not going to matter most of then time for flyers, but shooting... something tells me this would be a bad idea.

So would you try to place them in enemy territory, or on your own side where it's safe?

If one were to deepstrike? If I were playing a competition, I would Deepstrike 4 right away.
And T1 Deepstriking flyers is something I would never do in a non-Apoc game with friends.

So to your question, assuming I DS them in their turn with Zahndrekh:
I would place them wherever I feel that they are safest, so probably somewhere in my own deployment-zone.
It are flyers, so in my turn I will move them close enough to shoot. But during my opponent's turn, I don't want every single one of his Marines to shoot at it.
I could even use a cheap Pulsetek to be sure it stays alive.

But I do not know how I would play it if I bring them out during my turn.

All that seems to working just fine but still, if anyone feels like to take advantage of Nemie 'phased reinforcments' and DS in T1, need to have Nemie alrdy on the table (again doing not much more then giving orders)...unless joined by vtek and whatever U wish to make opponent hurt.
Got this little combo on my mind but not sure if it would work out...
Nemie with lets say 10x warr on table, DSing monolith onto enemys back, use 'dementional corridor' to port in Nemie with warr's and in same moment (after deploying Nemie unit), use Oby's 'ghostwalk mantle' to shield them with Oby+TP/LG+stek with lightning field ....all in T1 ofc...not sure tho if after DS, portal of exile can be used in such way....?

KelCJ wrote:
One strategy I've seen go around is a full phalanx of 20 warriors with a destroyer lord giving the entire unit preferred enemy. Not a bad idea for a mini deathball. Some have also gone so far as to also include a decked out overlord with phaeron to give the squad the ability to charge after rapid firing to finish off whatever squad didn't get annihilated by rapid firing (assuming it's nothing like terminators or something )

I went up against this with my space wolves. My RP managed to kill the Destroyer Lord but he resurrected killing my RP the next turn. I also had 2 Grey Hunters in the squad that killed 4 Warriors. I lost the combat in the end due to the Resurrections.

What is everyone's thought on scarab bases. I'm going to field 6 backed up by 2 spyders. Do you think I should run them as 1x6 unit or 2x3 units.

 Lithzur wrote:
All that seems to working just fine but still, if anyone feels like to take advantage of Nemie 'phased reinforcments' and DS in T1, need to have Nemie alrdy on the table (again doing not much more then giving orders)...unless joined by vtek and whatever U wish to make opponent hurt.
Got this little combo on my mind but not sure if it would work out...
Nemie with lets say 10x warr on table, DSing monolith onto enemys back, use 'dementional corridor' to port in Nemie with warr's and in same moment (after deploying Nemie unit), use Oby's 'ghostwalk mantle' to shield them with Oby+TP/LG+stek with lightning field ....all in T1 ofc...not sure tho if after DS, portal of exile can be used in such way....?

Worth noting that the Veil of Darkness and Ghostwalk Mantles do not allow the unit to arrive via Phased Reinforcements, as the pieces of wargear do not actually confer the DS USR.

Drakmord wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:
All that seems to working just fine but still, if anyone feels like to take advantage of Nemie 'phased reinforcments' and DS in T1, need to have Nemie alrdy on the table (again doing not much more then giving orders)...unless joined by vtek and whatever U wish to make opponent hurt.
Got this little combo on my mind but not sure if it would work out...
Nemie with lets say 10x warr on table, DSing monolith onto enemys back, use 'dementional corridor' to port in Nemie with warr's and in same moment (after deploying Nemie unit), use Oby's 'ghostwalk mantle' to shield them with Oby+TP/LG+stek with lightning field ....all in T1 ofc...not sure tho if after DS, portal of exile can be used in such way....?

Worth noting that the Veil of Darkness and Ghostwalk Mantles do not allow the unit to arrive via Phased Reinforcements, as the pieces of wargear do not actually confer the DS USR.

Oh man... I researched this and came up with some VERY conflicted people and answers. In the end the argument came down to some people believing that you did not need the Deepstrike universal rule - only the ability to Deepstrike at some point. They figure that since the ability itself bends the Deepstrike rules that it only needs to be able to Deep Strike (any means) for it to be able to use Nemesor's Phased Reinforcements.

As much as I'd like for it to be usable with Phased Reinforcements it just doesn't seem to be so and the argument for it is a little iffy itself. Personally I'd think that design wise they probably meant for it to be usable as such. You can only bring the Veil twice and one Obyron to the fight - even then is that really a great tactic?

Links to previous arguments...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/448849.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/484315.page

TL;DR
I'm not sure what the official response is to being able to Phase Reinforcements in with Veil of Darkness/Obyrons Mantle but it would appear that it could be a valid tactic if agreed upon in friendly games.

Maybe I put things wrong, forgive me..but what I have in mind is to DS only monolith itself, then through 'dementional corridor' port in Nemie and warriors, then use 'ghostwalk mentle' of Obie (6 inchies from Nemie i do not have to scatter right?), shield Nemie unit with him and some TP.
Yeah I messed up by thinking that i can use 'phased reinforcments' and activate 'corridor'. That rule of Nemie can be used in enemy trun which means that I can only show up, cant shoot or do other stuff. Excitement of that evil plan in T1 made me blind to basic rules

It gives them some targets to shoot at.

My army is still being built and I played a game using Nemesor and a DLord kitted out for dueling. I'd wait till he drop-podded a Dreadnaught then I'd DS my DLord over in his spawn next to his tanks. That guy is a great killer and at a 1500 pt game can usually take quite a beating. It's a suicide tactic - but it draws and usually wastes a turn of firing on the DLord while he will take out a tank or three.

Dsing Dlord also placing him in a prior "to shoot at" list of Ur enemy and cc units cant do much after DS as I'm sure U know. And I agree with U but most of tactics carry a risk, there is no fun without it Nonetheless monolith after DS can shoot (particle whip and flyers), Nemie with warriors coming out from monolith corridor also can shoot in a same turn, alike Oby with TP's+htek when ghostwalk out on front of Nemie unit, also can shoot. By taping into Oby unit Dlord+orb we have quite strong firepowerd, cc and resilient unit...anything that left after their shooting turn I rly doubt that can do much damage in return. Both Nemie and Oby units have orb and lets not forget---> theres that damn huge monolith

Guys please lets just forget about using here 'phaced reinforcments', that was my bad and I know where and why I was wrong. This time pure DS/reserves is on my mind.....and what do U think about that maneuver? Want to test it this saturday but I'm still not sure tho if 'dementional corridor' can be used after DSing monolith

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/506368.page <-- if anyone ask about full list to my plan

Hello Guys,
I'm hoping for a bit of help.

I made a mistake and deep struck my deathstar to close to my opponents Blood Angles Troops (and I only realized too late, HQ).

However once the assault begun (and finished) in 1 turn. (Damn you sweeping advances) I realized I might be screwed as Mephiston and Brother Corbulo continued across the board towards my main forces.

How would I defeat a Mephiston and Brother Corbulo combo? Mephiston with toughness 6 and has a 2+ armor save, and wounds that ignore his armor he just passes off to Corbulo who has a 2+ FNP.

I had 2 squads of Deathmarks (13 deathmarks total) (and a veil-tek) fire into him (he was marked), an annihilation barge, 4 destruct-teks and a night scythe fire everything they could into him, and between the two of them he only suffered 1 wound! (leaving Mephiston with 4 wounds and Corbulo with his two)

How could I beat that combo, just more shooting?

Any insight would be appreciated

I may not be as experienced as most people here but imo i see not much choice then orbed Dlord with scythe and wrights (lest say 5-6 for funny number of rending attacks) with coils to prevent them from attacking U first. " Preferred enemy-everything! " from Ur Dlord will make whole unit to re-roll to hit and to wound all rolls of 1, warscythe takes out all possible armor save so all what will left for them is that FNP and wrights have 3++ and by coils, they and lord attack first anytime.....i think that may be a good counter for their combo
Ofc shooting here is more then important to weak them or strip from troops they join. Hdestroyers could be helpfull as well i think

bradleyo wrote:
How would I defeat a Mephiston and Brother Corbulo combo? Mephiston with toughness 6 and has a 2+ armor save, and wounds that ignore his armor he just passes off to Corbulo who has a 2+ FNP.

This question could be better asked in the BA-thread, as they know the rules better concerning those two Characters.

But you have one option: Point out that Mephiston isn't an IC and that "Look Out, Sir!" can only be done by models in the same unit.

Second thing: Corbulo cannot use his FnP against stuff with Str8 or higher.
Luckily we have enough things that ID-him ánd ignore his armour.

Just look through the codex and find weapons with AP3 or better and STR8 or higher

You sure you were using that Death & Despair squad properly?
T6 and 2+ armor should mean nothing to AP1 flamer that wounds on a 2+. (the feel no pain would be different, though).

Alternatively, you could use a Tesseract Labyrinth?

The wraiths are a great idea.
He claims that the abyssal staff is str 8 leadership so not double toughness.

The tesseract labyrinth is a great idea, however as SP initiative is so much higher than mine, I'd be afraid of wasting the points?

Is that a worthwhile investment?

bradleyo wrote:
The wraiths are a great idea.
He claims that the abyssal staff is str 8 leadership so not double toughness.

The tesseract labyrinth is a great idea, however as SP initiative is so much higher than mine, I'd be afraid of wasting the points?

Is that a worthwhile investment?

Mindshackle Scarabs are a similar gamble to Tesseract Labyrinths while remaining cheaper. You can also use MSS more than once.

By fielding a DLord and a retinue of Wraiths, you should be able to deal with Mephiston and Corbulo. Charge them and challenge Mephiston, and he'll have a chance of IDing himself.

If you also run Zahndrekh in your army, you could give them Furious Charge as well. This would let your DLord resolve his attacks at S8, preventing Corbulo from using FNP should you choose to single him out instead.

bradleyo wrote:
Hello Guys,
I'm hoping for a bit of help.

I made a mistake and deep struck my deathstar to close to my opponents Blood Angles Troops (and I only realized too late, HQ).

However once the assault begun (and finished) in 1 turn. (Damn you sweeping advances) I realized I might be screwed as Mephiston and Brother Corbulo continued across the board towards my main forces.

How would I defeat a Mephiston and Brother Corbulo combo? Mephiston with toughness 6 and has a 2+ armor save, and wounds that ignore his armor he just passes off to Corbulo who has a 2+ FNP.

I had 2 squads of Deathmarks (13 deathmarks total) (and a veil-tek) fire into him (he was marked), an annihilation barge, 4 destruct-teks and a night scythe fire everything they could into him, and between the two of them he only suffered 1 wound! (leaving Mephiston with 4 wounds and Corbulo with his two)

How could I beat that combo, just more shooting?

Any insight would be appreciated

How was he 'passing wounds off' to Corbulo? The only way I can see is Look Out, Sir!, but since Mephiston isn't an IC, he cannot join Corbulo, and since he is also a unit that only ever consists of a single model, Corbulo cannot join him. If that's how he's been 'passing off wounds' then he's been cheating. I also don't know how 4 Lanceteks couldn't at least kill Corbulo, since he's only T4 and FNP can't be taken against wounds that cause instant death, so one lance wound on him would pop him. Mephiston could take lance hits himself, since they wouldn't ID him and he'd have the FNP from Corbulo being within 6", but even then, he should've gone down pretty quickly.

bradleyo wrote:
Hello Guys,
I'm hoping for a bit of help.

I made a mistake and deep struck my deathstar to close to my opponents Blood Angles Troops (and I only realized too late, HQ).

However once the assault begun (and finished) in 1 turn. (Damn you sweeping advances) I realized I might be screwed as Mephiston and Brother Corbulo continued across the board towards my main forces.

How would I defeat a Mephiston and Brother Corbulo combo? Mephiston with toughness 6 and has a 2+ armor save, and wounds that ignore his armor he just passes off to Corbulo who has a 2+ FNP.

I had 2 squads of Deathmarks (13 deathmarks total) (and a veil-tek) fire into him (he was marked), an annihilation barge, 4 destruct-teks and a night scythe fire everything they could into him, and between the two of them he only suffered 1 wound! (leaving Mephiston with 4 wounds and Corbulo with his two)

How could I beat that combo, just more shooting?

Any insight would be appreciated

A Destroyer Lord, with a Warsycthe. MSS, and a Semp Weave is generally all you need to take out Mephi. What was in your "deathstar" that got taken out early from the DS?

In my deathstar (this is embarrassing so please don't be too harsh.

I had 20 warriors, a DS with MSS and Septernial weave, and Vanguard Oberon.

He assaulted with 1 last model from a devastator squad. (which I just killed) to Take all the overwatch.. Due to poor rolls and FNP he survived.
Then He assaulted with 5 assault marines (which I figured we could take)
I missed the HR (Mephiston and Brother C.)

The assault marines and I stalemated. Mephiston and Brother C killed 5. ( He did a look out sir on my Warsythe hits against Mephiston, so Brother C used his FNP)
I lost combat so I had roll a 5 or less (which seems stupid since I had 2 ID and 15 warriors left)
I rolled an 8 (or something) so he killed me all in sweeping advance.
(Mephiston has initiative 7 and rolled a 5 on the initiative test, So i didn't bother)

I didn't challenge because my opponent is adamant that units in a challenge don't leave the sqaud, so anyone in base combat (not just the challenger) can take the MSS.
Needless to say MSS didn't affect Mephiston.

That's not a deathstar, that's just a regular Necron squad with a Lord and Obyron.

A deathstar is a very expensive, but effective unit, mostly in cc. Your entire squad had two cc units and thus was doomed to fail to begin with.

A proper Necron deathstar would be e.g. 5 Lords, Obyron, Staff of Light Cryptek - as this squads is very strong in cc. 20 Warriors aren't.

Good to know. Clearly I got my terminology wrong.

In any case they we not supposed to be in cc!

he cheated that simple, but mephiston is not a challenge anymore for overlords if you roll thos 2+; still watch out for the ID, same goes for him shackle and with some luck he kills himself with his own forceweapon
...

whats your guys thoughts on a D-lord w/ RO, MSS, SW joining with a troop of teslaimmortals and a veiltek.

I usually run teslaimmorals + veiltek and MSS RO lord and also D-lord with wraiths and have had good success, I was just curious if the Prefered enemy would be worth the d-lord leaving the wraiths to join the immortals. any 1s that are rerolled to a 6 is a beautiful thing.

Thoughts?

Destroyer Lords + Wraiths is an extremely strong deathstar.

I'm not sure as far as mathhammering goes, but in my experience, D.Lord-Wraith-star works better than the D.Lord + shooters (if you really want to make Immortals shine, you include a Stalker in the army. That way you can reroll more than just 1s).

If you REALLY want to abuse the Preferred Enemy rule, figure out what happens when you attach a D.Lord to a Death & Despair squad...

 keltikhoa wrote:
whats your guys thoughts on a D-lord w/ RO, MSS, SW joining with a troop of teslaimmortals and a veiltek.

I usually run teslaimmorals + veiltek and MSS RO lord and also D-lord with wraiths and have had good success, I was just curious if the Prefered enemy would be worth the d-lord leaving the wraiths to join the immortals. any 1s that are rerolled to a 6 is a beautiful thing.

Thoughts?

DLord is a pretty good addition to just about any unit, as the Preferred Enemy and potential Res Orb are a good buff for just about anything.

 skoffs wrote:

If you REALLY want to abuse the Preferred Enemy rule, figure out what happens when you attach a D.Lord to a Death & Despair squad...

OMG I love it, its the greatest Idea!

I don't know about "greatest idea", but it's definitely one of the most ridiculous overkill combos Necrons are capable of.

 skoffs wrote:
I don't know about "greatest idea", but it's definitely one of the most ridiculous overkill combos Necrons are capable of.

against a single enemy unit, anyway

Hmmmm....

HQ
Trazyn
Dlord Mss/Sw/Ro
Despairtek

ELITE
Deathmarks x 10
Deathmarks x 5
Deathmarks x 5

Clocks in around 775 (and still needs some NS or Veils), but man, at the very least three targets are going to get waxed .

OK, so here we go I recently had all of my troops run off the board in a game because of failed moral checks loosing a game in the top of turn 2. I know it was unwise to put all of my troops that close to the board edge but I figured hey they have Ld 10 right? Anyway does anyone have a favored number of models that they like to bring in a troop of warriors? I was running a squad of 20 warriors and oberon 6 dropped to the ground and I failed moral causing me to fall back 10 inches and lossing all 6 of those warriors in the same turn my two squads of 10 immortals containing a cryptek and zandrek respectively lost 4 and 3 immortals causing a moral check for each zandrek ran off the board and the crypteks squad passed leaving him and 6 immortals behind. At this point the game was over because he had lost literally nothing at this point and I was already down to about 45% of my forces.

Doing a little math it seems to me that the numbers just after a multiple of 4 are the best to bring as a total squad size ex: 5 9 13 17 and 22 this will allow you to get the most out of your moral. More have to be destroyed before you have to take moral and more are left before you are under 25% and you can't regroup. Still, what are the communities opinion about squad size? Am I just over reacting because of horrible luck?

Next, the Death and Despair squad... How do y'all take this squad? just minimum possible? 5 deathmarks and a HoD flying in a night scythe? or ten deathmarks with 5 HoD in a night scythe? Anyone taking Veil and attempt to deep strike the unit all over? whats up?

Thanks for any responses,
Love,
Rothrich xoxo

I'm too lazy and new to do the squadsize-math.

But to the other question:
People usually take 5 DM's and a HoD.
Why? Because that's enough for the job.
Why not 5 HoD? Because you can only attach ONE Royal Court member to the squad of Death Marks.

Their job is to be as cheap as possible and to wipe out as many points as possible.
Remember that it's only 125 points and it can easily kill a squad of terminators which are 200 points.
The group of DM's is basically sacrificed, so there is no use in putting more points in it.

^
THANK YOU.
I'm constantly surprised how many people have yet to figure this out.
(new kids sticking OrbLords and such into the D&D squads to try to increase their durability. "but what if they get charged?" Well then they overwatch the idiots assaulting them, then lay some smack down in hand-to-hand, with all blows struck wounding on 2+ as well)

HHAHA I forgot about 1 cour member per unit still you could take 2 in the unit....

so.. the best D&D unit is just the min maybe take 2 of em and a stalker to make em particularly Gangsta!

 skoffs wrote:
^
THANK YOU.
I'm constantly surprised how many people have yet to figure this out.
(new kids sticking OrbLords and such into the D&D squads to try to increase their durability. "but what if they get charged?" Well then they overwatch the idiots assaulting them, then lay some smack down in hand-to-hand, with all blows struck wounding on 2+ as well)

I don't think tweaking with them on the other end of the spectrum is a completely worthless endeavor. Maxed squads with a Res Lord or Trazyn have some intriguing possibilities of their own, they just play a different role then the MSU 5 Death + Despair, plop down, unload, then die unit does. Deathmarks with a Res Orb are pretty resilient unit, that can unload a heavy amount or precision shots that can neuter squads of their firepower, and with some one like Trazyn they also score and can follow that up with an Assault to finish off effectively neutered squads.

20 Shots will net you 3+ precision, with a decent chance to compound that precision with some rending. Knock out any characters with those shots, and then they are taking a pinning test -1. Follow that up with an assault and I think you might be impressed with the kind of damage a unit like that could do.

Even with no luck from precision 20 BS 4 sniper shots will kill 3 or 4 MEq. The unit will attract it's fair share of attention and then you sit back on that 3+/4+RP and make them make every bullet count.

rothrich wrote:
the best D&D unit is just the min maybe take 2 of em and a stalker to make em particularly Gangsta!

First off, your comments are a little hard to read if you don't bother with grammar and punctuation.
Second, if you're using your Stalker to assist a D&D squad (whose main weapon is an auto-hit flame template that has little need of twin linking assistance) instead of, say, Tesla Immortals/Doomsday Arks/Destruc-teks/etc... you're kind of doing it wrong.

Dang skoffs... That is kind of snarky and rude. Why not rephrase it to say something like, "You don't need a stalker to assist a D&D squad. Then you mention Tesla Immortals/Doomsday Arks/ Desturc-teks/ect... For what? How do you use them to in conjunction with a D&D squad? I made a post in hopes of getting help not to have some guy be an internet smart Alec to me... But if you want to be like that it is fine I guess.

rothrich wrote:
Dang skoffs... That is kind of snarky and rude. Why not rephrase it to say something like, "You don't need a stalker to assist a D&D squad. Then you mention Tesla Immortals/Doomsday Arks/ Desturc-teks/ect... For what? How do you use them to in conjunction with a D&D squad? I made a post in hopes of getting help not to have some guy be an internet smart Alec to me... But if you want to be like that it is fine I guess.

You missed his point... albeit snarky - he was right.

Stalker won't help the flamer hit - which is the main portion of the DnD squad - though it will still help the Deathmarks. It's better to use it to give Immortals or somebody else Twin Linking - DnD squads don't net nearly as much gain from doing that.

Oh I got his point, I just wish he did not feel the need to be a jerk about it. And thank you for clarifying. The stalker would be much better used with Tesla Immortals, doomsday arks, and destro-teks. Thank you. Seeing as I have two doomsday arks I can see how great that can be.

Yeah, that would allow you to reroll the scatter if you choose, aye? Any situation where you want your powerful shot to blast through them is a good time for it. That said, the Triarch Stalker doesn't seem too impressive otherwise.

Silly question I'll ask here instead of YMTC

Scarabs take double wounds from template weapons via the Swarms rule - do small blasts and large blasts count as template weapons? Or just flamers?

You consider "if you do A instead of B, you're doing it wrong" being rude?
Man, I hate to think what your reaction would have been if I was ACTUALLY trying to be rude!
(though, I do find it amusing that it took someone else clarifying it for you in simpler terms before you got it)


And yes, Budikah, Scarabs take double damage from all template weapons, not just the flamer.
Normally the best way to mitigate that is to have enough Spyders working to create extra Scarabs, as well as spreading said Scarabs out enough that only a few of them land under the template.
... though, you don't see many Scarab Farms around much anymore (it's not like Necrons have a shortage of ways to deal with vehicles, after all)

What should Necrons do to minimize LRBT casualties? Mostly just the standard large blast STR 8 AP 3 OPness. I feel our AV 13 vehicles with Jink saves should be okay, but I'm worried about warrior blobs, especially when you're facing 3-6 LRBTs.

Put them in ghost arks or nightscythes to get them closer to where you want them without having to worry (much in the first case and 'at all' in the second) about those pie-plates until they get there.

Also pretty much everything necronian is good vs vehicles so light 'em up in the mean time while your transports are moving in.

Haywire sticks are usually the best bet. Get them into place with a Nightscythe & 5 Warriors (not sure whether to call this combo "Storm-troopers" (eg. Storm-tek + troops) or "Riders On The Storm").

Regardless, this doesn't help much at the beginning of the game.

One way to take them out early is to attach a Storm-tek or two to a unit that can teleport (Desair-tek w/ Veil, or Obyron).
Haven't tried it before, but a Royal Court unit of 4 Storm-teks + Obyron and a ResOrb Lord (plus maybe a Chrono-tek to mitigate deep strike scatter) would make one hell of an effective anti-tank deathstar.
Turn 1- Ghostwalk next to big juicy vehicle, Haywire it. Pretty much guarantee no more vehicle.
Turn 2- Ghostwalk next to another vehicle. Haywire.
(you get the idea)
If they ever get assaulted, the two Warscythes (plus maybe MSS and Lightning Field) should be pretty effective.

A 7 man deathstar capable of reliably taking out one vehicle a turn from turn one for just about 400 points?
Not sure if viable...

Seems a tad easy to counter. Storm teks have a very short range, meaning a bit of spread out bubble wrap can protect the vehicles so long as the opponent is aware of the danger. The unit
Is also really vulnerable to a monstrous creature coming in to ID Obyron (or challenge out a warscythe). I have a somewhat slanted view on this one due to fighting a Grey Knight player who almost always has a Dreadknight or two in his army. Regular MEQ probably can't pull that off.
Without a monstrous creature, they could also chump challenge to negate one warscythe and then kill either the other scythe before it gets a chance to attack or the stormteks (thus negating the entire point of the unit).
Night scythe delivery, while delayed for a turn, is better at getting the unit in range. If you drop the unit off after moving, you can even pick up survivors on the next turn. If the storm tek unit is whiped out, at least you still have an airborne Tesla Destructor zipping about.
I usually run two courts, so I would probably have two units with 5 warriors and 2 stormteks in a night scythe. 450 for the whole lot. I'm not sure if 1/3 or even 1/4 of an army dedicated as anti-vehicle sniping is a good idea. At least you get 200 points of that is also anti-air/mobility/flyer.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Seems a tad easy to counter. Storm teks have a very short range, meaning a bit of spread out bubble wrap can protect the vehicles so long as the opponent is aware of the danger. The unit
Is also really vulnerable to a monstrous creature coming in to ID Obyron (or challenge out a warscythe). I have a somewhat slanted view on this one due to fighting a Grey Knight player who almost always has a Dreadknight or two in his army. Regular MEQ probably can't pull that off.
Without a monstrous creature, they could also chump challenge to negate one warscythe and then kill either the other scythe before it gets a chance to attack or the stormteks (thus negating the entire point of the unit).
Night scythe delivery, while delayed for a turn, is better at getting the unit in range. If you drop the unit off after moving, you can even pick up survivors on the next turn. If the storm tek unit is whiped out, at least you still have an airborne Tesla Destructor zipping about.
I usually run two courts, so I would probably have two units with 5 warriors and 2 stormteks in a night scythe. 450 for the whole lot. I'm not sure if 1/3 or even 1/4 of an army dedicated as anti-vehicle sniping is a good idea. At least you get 200 points of that is also anti-air/mobility/flyer.

I tried this in my last two games...

5x Warriors in a Night Scythe with a Destructek with his little Haywire staff.

The issue is that you are spending 190 points to destroy a single vehicle and you almost always will be dead by the next turn with that very same squad. There are only a few vehicles that I've played against that would be worth that sort of dedication. It also had to do with my army makeup but at a 1750 point game I had two of those... 380 points dedicated to vehicle destruction that while it was guaranteed - isn't going to do much if your opponent is running an infantry heavy army. I dropped my suicide squads, fried two tanks, then they died. Points wise they took out higher than their value but otherwise I messed it up by not having enough troops to win the points game.

Yeah, afraid that would be the case. It's definitely a situation where the target HAS to be worth it. then there's the little detail that a doom scythe is 20 points cheaper and can usually survive quite well. AV 13 is a bit of a pain when all you can roll is 2's, but parking lots get lit up nice.

In one of my TAC lists, I run a D&D squad to handle tough infantry, a "Storm-Trooper" unit in Nightscythe to handle troublesome vehicles, and a Doomscythe as redundancy in case either one of the previous units has trouble dealing with their targets.
Works pretty well, but I'm wondering if there might be a better way of doing things...

Forgief me lads if I ask question that probably been answered many...many times but have to ask it and need You to clarify it please. Is it possible to join for example Overlord and cryptek to one unit (immortals/pretorians/warriors) or two crypteks, or is it one special char and one unit only? Why I ask it? Just have that kind of idea to put vailtek, stormtek and D.orblord with bunch of pretorians into nightscythe but Im not sure if i can do such thing ( count that one overlord will be on the table as well...or should i take more then one? )

 Lithzur wrote:
Forgief me lads if I ask question that probably been answered many...many times but have to ask it and need You to clarify it please. Is it possible to join for example Overlord and cryptek to one unit (immortals/pretorians/warriors) or two crypteks, or is it one special char and one unit only? Why I ask it? Just have that kind of idea to put vailtek, stormtek and D.orblord with bunch of pretorians into nightscythe but Im not sure if i can do such thing ( count that one overlord will be on the table as well...or should i take more then one? )

The ICs do not count against the Royal Court Restrictions for joining a squad. In addition, make sure the unit you want to join, can have Royal Court Members join it. Praetorians for example, cannot have royal court members join them, and cannot purchase a Night Scythe as a Dedicated Transport.

For example, if you have Two Overlords, you could have two royal courts, and have one member from each court join the same squad. You could then have Each Overlord join the squad, as they are Indepedant Characters, and thus have them join as well.

Thanks for explaining me that Sasori Well yeah i put here wrong example with those pretorians (although had that idea to join cryptek to them but then i checked codex and what U say is true). My choice then are Deathmarks with Dtek (all know why ). And about DM speaking...do anyone heard whats up with that 'Etheral interception' rule? Is it solved anyhow... do they can enter and shoot in an enemy turn by arrive with that rule or not?
Second thought about nightscythes....if i can buy them only as a dedicated transport, what for GW add note 'Transport: bla bla bla..It may carry jump infantry (each model takes up two points of transport capacity) and jetbikes..."

Night Scythes can still pick up those other units, they just cannot start the game in the transport.

Also, it is generally accepted that the deathmarks do not get to shoot in the enemy shooting phase, as far as i know.

There is overwatch. And they mark when deployed.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
it is generally accepted that the deathmarks do not get to shoot in the enemy shooting phase, as far as i know.

Yes, but it's always struck me as something they over looked when updating the FAQs (I mean, the special rule's NAME is 'Etheral interception', after all. That, and the fact that it allows them to move outside of their own movement step suggests they were supposed to have Interceptor... it's an absolutely useless rule, otherwise).

 skoffs wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
it is generally accepted that the deathmarks do not get to shoot in the enemy shooting phase, as far as i know.

Yes, but it's always struck me as something they over looked when updating the FAQs (I mean, the special rule's NAME is 'Etheral interception', after all. That, and the fact that it allows them to move outside of their own movement step suggests they were supposed to have Interceptor... it's an absolutely useless rule, otherwise).

This. I can't understand the DM. It's a sniper that can Deepstrike on your oponent's turn, preferably within the rapid fire range, and then what? Nothing. This rule needs some love, GW.

Ah well, at least it's still awesome when it DS in the old fashioned way or is delievered by Nightscythe.