sounddemon wrote:
The addition of the Annihilation Barges can only help an army. For 90 points your getting strong anti infantry and anti air capabilities. The barge for sure is a definite steal.

Not to mention they eat transports and other AV10/11 Vehicles. They are the best bargain buy in the codex IMHO. I have been running 3 for months as my heavy slots, but I have been mixing it up lately.

 sounddemon wrote:
The addition of the Annihilation Barges can only help an army. For 90 points your getting strong anti infantry and anti air capabilities. The barge for sure is a definite steal.

Well, I'm fielding three of them in my 1750 pt list, the more the better; so no Doom Scythe but a few Night Scythes.

tuiman wrote:
I know this question is kind of list dependent, but with allies only being able to take 1 heavy, would you choose the annihilation barge or the doom scythe.

The barge seems so cheap for what you get, and that means more points to spend else where, but the doom scythe is awesome.

If your taking Necrons Allies it mainly for the Night Scythe

Overlord - 90

Cryptec HoS x2

Troops 5 Warroirs
Night Scythe

Troops 5 Warroirs
Night Scythe

370 pts gets you two flyers with the TD and a scoring a certain kill anti tank infantry unit. You could deck out the Overlord but I wouldn't waste more points on it.

What do you guys think about the CCB is it better at killing vehicles then the Annihilation Barge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
The addition of the Annihilation Barges can only help an army. For 90 points your getting strong anti infantry and anti air capabilities. The barge for sure is a definite steal.

Well, I'm fielding three of them in my 1750 pt list, the more the better; so no Doom Scythe but a few Night Scythes.

How well are the three Annihilation Barges working for you.?

I also run them in threes, i cant see myself taking anything else from our HS slots than the barges. Best point for point unit in the game, hands down. Anti horde(sort of, not its best feature but a helpful one with additional hits and arcing), anti mid armor(12 and under), anti flyer, anti FMC, anti transports, it has high AV, a skimmer that gets jink, can flat out if you need it to, small and easy to hide it behind terrain or ruins, the gun is mounted high on the model and can get easy LOS. Great piece of equipment to have in your army.

My addition of Necrons to my grey knigts is:


Overlord with Warscythe/ CCB
2 Stormtek
2 *5 Warriors/ Nightscythe

560 pts

Here goes another one with 3 Barges though I often use only two along with a squad of Heavy Destroyers.

Barges are good vs. almost anything and come at a low pricetag. Not to mention that they excel at taking flyers out - roll a single 6 with a TL cannon and get 3 S7 hits in.

What would you guys think about this 2 annihilation barges vs the doom scythe for cost and performance? I'm considering running 4-5 annihilation barges in my 2k list. It seems that I deal way way more damage with barges than I do with flyers.

Doomscythes are superior vs. heavily armored vehicles and are more durable due to the currently overpowered flyers.

If you want to go for flyers though, you need to pack a bunch as 1-2 flyers get shot easily in turn 2 vs. the enemy's Quad-Gun.

Then again, playing with double FoC means not caring much about balance either, so...well, whatever floats yer boat.

The way I see it is that 2 more annihilation barges will do more long term and short term damage then compared to a doom scythe.

Annihilation Barges are just so flexible when it comes to firepower.

I'm currently run 2 annihilation barges and 1 doom scythe in my 1500 list and would imagine that adding more barges would just make my 2k list that much better.

Meh, i leave flyer duty to the transports. Night scythe is way better than doom scythe for what it does and points. about same cost if you put a small warrior squad in there, now it scores, has str 7 gun, has gauss glance weapon warriors, super fast and scoring. leave the high av to gauss, scarabs, lance teks, warscythes, etc. Doom scythe is not needed when your entire army does what it does already.

I can't believe people only see the Doom Scythe as only a high AV hunter. It does add to our already considerable anti-AV capabilities that's for sure, but it also is so well rounded it can actually deal with any target on the table. Yes it's expensive but with it resilience as a flier, its high threat priority and its ability to easily deal with...everything-make it the perfect support option in my eyes. I run 3 and they have not yet failed to do something significant, even if that is just drawing fire from Night Scythes with Troops who will grab late game objectives or get Linebreaker (though they do normally do much more than just that).

Hi everyone, been lurking for a while in this thread and have found full of clever suggestions and tips. Great work guys!

At the moment I'm waiting for a Battle Force to arrive by mail and had initially planned to make the ark into a Doomsday Ark. But nowhere do I see any mentions of it, is it not worth it's points? I play almost exclusively MEQs and thought it would kick a** against them. Is it easy to magnetize?

I'm basically starting out my army and have only a few models (Nemesor+Obyron+5xLychguard+12xWarriors+5xTesla Immortals +3xWraiths+1xScratchbuilt Monolith+3xScarabs) and I'm not that into the flyers. I plan to buy a pair of ABs at the end of the month but aside from that I don't really know where to go.

 Lukus83 wrote:
I can't believe people only see the Doom Scythe as only a high AV hunter. It does add to our already considerable anti-AV capabilities that's for sure, but it also is so well rounded it can actually deal with any target on the table. Yes it's expensive but with it resilience as a flier, its high threat priority and its ability to easily deal with...everything-make it the perfect support option in my eyes. I run 3 and they have not yet failed to do something significant, even if that is just drawing fire from Night Scythes with Troops who will grab late game objectives or get Linebreaker (though they do normally do much more than just that).

It's primary use is anti-AV 13+. Nobody doubts that it's good vs other targets (it has about the same firepower as an AB), but you don't primarily buy it to get rid of infantry and stuff.

Then in my personal opinion people are not using it to full effect. AV14 is dealt with easier with other tools and fliers can be dealt using Night Scythes without wasting a turn of no Death Ray. I use the Doom Scythe as a jack-of-all-trades, it simply fills the gaps that other parts of my list may struggle against or just adds additional firepower.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

tuiman wrote:
I know this question is kind of list dependent, but with allies only being able to take 1 heavy, would you choose the annihilation barge or the doom scythe.

The barge seems so cheap for what you get, and that means more points to spend else where, but the doom scythe is awesome.

If your taking Necrons Allies it mainly for the Night Scythe

Overlord - 90

Cryptec HoS x2

Troops 5 Warroirs
Night Scythe

Troops 5 Warroirs
Night Scythe

370 pts gets you two flyers with the TD and a scoring a certain kill anti tank infantry unit. You could deck out the Overlord but I wouldn't waste more points on it.

Or, Overlord w/ warscythe, CBB, mss, 2x 5 Warriors w/ Night Scythes, Doom Scythe. Its about 575 pts and very scary.

 Lukus83 wrote:
Then in my personal opinion people are not using it to full effect. AV14 is dealt with easier with other tools and fliers can be dealt using Night Scythes without wasting a turn of no Death Ray. I use the Doom Scythe as a jack-of-all-trades, it simply fills the gaps that other parts of my list may struggle against or just adds additional firepower.

Glancing stuff to death works as well, the problem is that it can easily take longer than a single shot, not to mention that the Doom Scythe allows you to quickly attack parking lot lamers like IG while your Warriors need to slowly march towards them.

The Doom Scythe has a big advantage now and that's the ridiculously overpowered flyer rules - as long as people do not have access to viable AA despite your generic ADL, flyers are massively undercosted. The Doom Scythe's status will change once GW sold enough of them.

I have recently dropped the Doom Scythe from my lists. It really changes the way opponents deploy as it is a massive threat. The kicker for me was so the same points I can have the Night variant with scoring warriors inside for less points.

The Doom is ace but for me it is not working. If you don't bring it you better have a way to deal with AV13+. Mostly by CC for me which brings it's own risks.

The problem with DS (yes, that's Doom Scythe from now own, typing scythe is pretty annoying) is that they immediately draw the enemy's AA fire. You need to fill up all your HS slots with them, else it's easy to shoot them down in a single turn. If you do, though, they are extremely scary (and OP.). And people will hate you

OK Sigvatr I am going to try three and see how I go. I may need to add a veil of darkness for objective grabbing movement but worth a go.

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Hi everyone, been lurking for a while in this thread and have found full of clever suggestions and tips. Great work guys!

At the moment I'm waiting for a Battle Force to arrive by mail and had initially planned to make the ark into a Doomsday Ark. But nowhere do I see any mentions of it, is it not worth it's points? I play almost exclusively MEQs and thought it would kick a** against them. Is it easy to magnetize?

I'm basically starting out my army and have only a few models (Nemesor+Obyron+5xLychguard+12xWarriors+5xTesla Immortals +3xWraiths+1xScratchbuilt Monolith+3xScarabs) and I'm not that into the flyers. I plan to buy a pair of ABs at the end of the month but aside from that I don't really know where to go.

You can easily magnetize all the U shaped pieces (not every individual part but the U shaped pieces as a whole) with the front part of the ark, the back part, and the Doomsday Ark gun. This gives you 2 units for the price of one.

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Hi everyone, been lurking for a while in this thread and have found full of clever suggestions and tips. Great work guys!

At the moment I'm waiting for a Battle Force to arrive by mail and had initially planned to make the ark into a Doomsday Ark. But nowhere do I see any mentions of it, is it not worth it's points? I play almost exclusively MEQs and thought it would kick a** against them. Is it easy to magnetize?

I'm basically starting out my army and have only a few models (Nemesor+Obyron+5xLychguard+12xWarriors+5xTesla Immortals +3xWraiths+1xScratchbuilt Monolith+3xScarabs) and I'm not that into the flyers. I plan to buy a pair of ABs at the end of the month but aside from that I don't really know where to go.

The DDA suffers from lack of mobility(You can only fire the big gun if the model doesn't move and then you lose your jink save), being a huge model (it makes it hard to get LOS and a cover save) ,being a huge fire magnet( fake AV13 isn't good enough) and the weapon is S9 (it won't be intsa killing/ denying FNP on T5 units or even reliable pen'ing high AV)

DDA are best taken in pairs, with a Triarch Stalker to make those Blast TL and take a Cryptec with a Solar Pulse in case first turn is NightFighting and your DDA are out of range. If you build your army around them they can work.

Play a few games and decide which way you want to play your army, as there are many different army style for Necrons, then get the models.

Thanks alot guys! Good, sound advice that I take to heart.

Quick question, what gear do you recommend for a D.Lord? Does the Orb only give him ever-living on a 4+? Or am i missing something?

I would recommend giving a D-lord sempiternal weave and MSS. The resurrection orb does give the D-Lord a 4+ EL and RP.

A Res orb can be good your D-lord and on praetorians. Its a matter of preference imo. If your D-lord is your warlord I would give him the orb.

Kimiko wrote:
Quick question, what gear do you recommend for a D.Lord? Does the Orb only give him ever-living on a 4+? Or am i missing something?

Reanimation and ever living is only ever improved to a 4+ in a regular game of 40k using the current edition codex. Destroyer lords are great with warscythe, MSS, no res orb, and put in a squad of wraiths with whip coils.

I think its time to ask this dreaded question that everyone has been waiting for. How do you fight against Jaws?

Kimiko wrote:
Quick question, what gear do you recommend for a D.Lord? Does the Orb only give him ever-living on a 4+? Or am i missing something?

It depends on how you want to run your D-Lord. Generally you want him to always have a Scythe, Weave, and MSS. If you are running your lord alone or with Canoptek units (such as Wraiths or even scarabs) you generally do not want to give him an orb. However, if you are running him with any Necron units (ie, those that have RP or EL), you'll want to give him an Orb as well.

And for the record, RP and EL are both normally a 5+, and a Orb improves that to a 4+.

Thanks all for answers! U'm running it atm with a Wraithwing, so no use for Orb (at least for RP ).

Gauss isn't our most efficient weapon vs AV, it's the voltaic staff. Using them as dedicated anti tank platforms with 5 warriors out of a scythe is about as cost efficient as it gets. Hence Doom Scythes just fill gaps. Everything else is taken care of elsewhere if the list is build right.

Remember, Necron fliers don't win games, they are a support element. But they can kill a hell of a lot of models and draw fire like nothing else. Boots on the ground mid to late game is where it's at IMO.

Kimiko wrote:
Thanks all for answers! U'm running it atm with a Wraithwing, so no use for Orb (at least for RP ).

IMO, the orb is still very worth it just for your D. Lord.

I had an idea about The C'tan Shard ! Yes the C'tan Shard, we know its a big points sink with a unbelievably terrible save (+4... smh GW) ,now is pretty infective against high Armour can't join units to get some more wounds and is very slow but it may have a use in a Necron Footlist.

*edit for brain fart*

Sentient Singularity can be useful against those deep striking Terrmintors/Metla units but is hardly reliable

There are draw backs, you might be playing a shooty army, which is most of them in 6th, wasting points of a crummy C'tan shard which can be pew pew and you lose your passive.

I used to run the C'tan Shard back in 5th with Pyreshards & Moulder of Worlds as I liked the model and didn't have much experience. A shooty beat stick that attracts a lot of fire power and can defend your lines is a good role for it.
Now I think I'd give it Swarm of Spirit Dust & Writhing Worldscape, place all my objectives in Terrain/ruins and either have heading for a mid table objective or guarding mine.

You are incorrect about Writhing Worldscape. It makes difficult terrain dangerous. It does nothing to open ground.
In conjunction with Orikan, the whole battlefield is dangerous for 1 turn or if you use the Teks with Quake, they can make moving count as dangerous in tandem with the Writhing Worldscape.

I do still like the C'tan but they are a fire magnet. They work well as vehicle defenders with lord of fire making melta and flamed weapons have a chance to explode. I am also considering running one with ADL as the current meta has opponents assaulting the line with flamer weapons and a C'tan can operate the quad gun with BS 5.

I'm surprised more people don't use Doomscythes as anti-TEQ.
Seriously, my friends are hesitant to field their TH/SS Termies anymore, as they know I'm just going to paint that 3D6" line over them the first chance I get (doesn't matter how well they think they can place them, I'm usually able to hit at least 3 every time I fire).

As far as "Best Anti-X" tactics go, my top picks are--

Best Anti-Tank:
1st - Storm-tek with Warriors in Nightscythe.
2nd - Doomscythe
3rd - Scarab swarm

Best Anti-TEQ:
1st - Death & Despair Squad
2nd - Doomscythe
3rd - Lance-tek Royal Court in Ghost Ark OR Heavy Destroyers

Best Anti-MEQ:
1st - Wraiths
2nd - Destroyers
3rd - Royal Court Disco Inferno (technically, these guys are #1, but they are price prohibitive)

Best Anti-MC
1st - Doomscythe
2nd - Mindshackle Scarab Lord
3rd - C'tan? (don't know, never really face MCs)

Best Anti-Horde:
1st - Annihilation Barge
2nd - Tesla Immortals
3rd - Trazyn

Best Anti-Air:
1st - Nightscythe
2nd - Annihilation Barge
3rd - Aegis Defence Line with Qaud-gun

What category am I missing?

 NecronLord3 wrote:
You are incorrect about Writhing Worldscape. It makes difficult terrain dangerous. It does nothing to open ground.
In conjunction with Orikan, the whole battlefield is dangerous for 1 turn or if you use the Teks with Quake, they can make moving count as dangerous in tandem with the Writhing Worldscape.

I do still like the C'tan but they are a fire magnet. They work well as vehicle defenders with lord of fire making melta and flamed weapons have a chance to explode. I am also considering running one with ADL as the current meta has opponents assaulting the line with flamer weapons and a C'tan can operate the quad gun with BS 5.

I repeatedly see people calling C'tan with Lord of Fire stating they serve as good vehicle-savers...but I don't see why. You get a tiny chance for the enemy to get hurt instead of shooting at your vehicles, but then again, a single melta shot will most likely blow our stuff up anyway with a whopping +3 on the damage chart. And comparing that to the ridiculously price tag the C'tan comes with...no thanks.

The attack is nullified on a roll of 1 and removes from play the weapon or model that fired it. Is it expensive? Yes, but as a secondary ability for 10 points it is one of the better options, on top of all the other benefits of having a t7, eternal warrior MC within range to assault anything that is trying to melta.

I'd rather take a few Canoptek Spiders if I want MC at my side - those are more effective at assault.

Don't get me wrong, I also love the C'tan model. The Nightbringer looks really awesome. Shame that GW decided to virtually remove it from the codex.

That awkward moment when +1T would have made it viable.

Here's a noob question:
I understand that a Overlord on a CCB with sempiternal weave still only has a 2+ save. However, is the CCB chariot bonus wasted or does it make the Lord immune to AP2 weaponry, despite 'only' having a 2+ save?

(The answer is probably no, but i still wanted to have that clarified.)
It'd also be nice if someone could take a look at my attempts at creating an army list.

Well, the Overlord has a 2+ as long as he's inside the chariot. When he's on foot, the weave will give him a 2+ save. But the bonus on armor from chariot and weave cannot be combined to get more than a 2+ save.

Make sure you buy the phase shifter if you run a CCB, you will need it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'd rather take a few Canoptek Spiders if I want MC at my side - those are more effective at assault.

Don't get me wrong, I also love the C'tan model. The Nightbringer looks really awesome. Shame that GW decided to virtually remove it from the codex.

That awkward moment when +1T would have made it viable.

but are 3+ saves with no invulnerable. I don't like them unless I run scarabs.

My main problem despite its cost is the T7. It's pretty stupid that normal bolters can kill (the manifestation of) a god. Even worse, they have a pretty good chance at doing so with the C'tan's 4++.

The C'tan, imo, suffered the same fate the Monolith did: really cool models were smacked to the ground with the nerfhammer. Sure, the old Nightbringer / Deceiver were incredibly strong and a nerf was in order, but making them so weak wasn't a very good decision either. In the contrary.

Should have a better save (e,g. 2+/4+) / be ~50 pts cheaper / have better abilities etc. Any of those. It was good when WW was still a viable combo, but with the nerf to dangerous terrain, even that got terrible.

I struggled to find any good reason to take a C'tan, but couldn't find any. It does not have anything sth. else our codex could not do better in a way.

I very rarely use it, mostly when I play against new people and make weak lists that allow the other player to get a nice match.

In a serious match, however, the C'tan has no place.

 Sigvatr wrote:
My main problem despite its cost is the T7. It's pretty stupid that normal bolters can kill (the manifestation of) a god. Even worse, they have a pretty good chance at doing so with the C'tan's 4++.

The C'tan, imo, suffered the same fate the Monolith did: really cool models were smacked to the ground with the nerfhammer. Sure, the old Nightbringer / Deceiver were incredibly strong and a nerf was in order, but making them so weak wasn't a very good decision either. In the contrary.

Should have a better save (e,g. 2+/4+) / be ~50 pts cheaper / have better abilities etc. Any of those. It was good when WW was still a viable combo, but with the nerf to dangerous terrain, even that got terrible.

I struggled to find any good reason to take a C'tan, but couldn't find any. It does not have anything sth. else our codex could not do better in a way.

I very rarely use it, mostly when I play against new people and make weak lists that allow the other player to get a nice match.

In a serious match, however, the C'tan has no place.

Just because it's no OP doesn't mean its bad though. It's still more than fair for it's price. It's not completely useless like some things either. Guess it was an attempt at balancing a codex? They have them in all of them the not quite great, maybe bit worse than good.

Agreed though, no business in competitive 40k

I'd rate it 2/5.

I really like the idea of being able to individually equip your C'tan (despite it not actually fitting to the real fluff) - it's a fresh breath of air in an army that's pretty straight-forward otherwise.

The problem, however, is that many upgrades are either lackluster or overpriced. The C'tan itself does not bring much to the battlefield - it's a MC with T7 and a mediocre save. T7 and the only save being a 4++ makes it extremely vulnerable to massed fire. A bunch of ork boys can easily shoot a C'tan down! That's ridiculous and downright stupid. It either needs T8 or a 2+.

Imagine the old C'tan, HQ slot, some nerfs. Suddenly, awesome model with good rules.

in a fighty list, i think a ctan shard will do some neat things. it can either draw fire off your wraiths and other CC units, or if left alone do some bad things to the other guys lines. gaze of death or whatever it is is a nice trick to pull. in a shooty list, again i think the shard can fill a role, in distracting some fire from your other stuff. and if you give him the thunderbolt he can dish out a bit of ranged hurt.

that said, its a rather expensive unit that needs to be used very cautiously as it can be mobbed and brought down pretty easy (poison weapons and powerfists etc)
had an idea for a list running 2 shards... but once the pair hit 600 pts i gave up on em.

edit: for vehicle begone, i like using 5 crpteks, 4 have the voltaic staffs, one gets a veil. just teleport around and glance the frack out of any vehicle you can, and its gone. and the unit only costs 160pts.

for anti deathstar, 5 lords, warscythes, MSS and phase shifters, plus an OL with the same and an orb... "stop hitting yourself....why do you keep hitting yourself? i said STOP hitting yourself... ah screw it. have 13 warscythe attacks in the face."

otherwise, i like 20 warriors with a ghost arc, zandrekh and obyron and a trio of spiders in the back. the spiders keep the arc up and running, and provide some assault protection (pile em in if your charged) the arc helps keep the warriors up. obyron is there for some CC fun and the veil if you need to hop on an objective last turn, and zandrekh gives you tatics to use or remove from the other guy. this combo just wont die , at least not easy! plus its mobile and scoring. albeit expensive

I played a Ctan Shard w/ Gaze and Pyreshards. If he can get into CC along with a scarab farm he is nearly invulnerable as gaze will eat scarabs giving him back wounds... that is if you do not manage to eat some of the things your in cc with.

I'm putting together a Necron army to krump the local IG player and I need to put a hurting on his Leman Russes and Chimeras fast. At 1k-1.5k points, what would be a pretty reliable anti tank list?

I'm looking at running:

HQ (kitted out Overlord or Imotekh)
2-3 10 man Warrior squads in Arks (maybe 1 night scythe)
1 or 2 5 man squads of Death Marks
2 Annihilation Barge + 1 Doomsday Ark
OR 2 Doomsday Ark + Annihilation Barge
OR 2 Annihilation Barge + Doomscythe

Try my cryptek squad. 4 crypteks, with voltaic staffs ( 4 haywire shots EACH) and a 5th cryptek with a veil. All in one unit. Teleport next to tank, it goes away. Next turn, repeat. Only risk is a bad scatter/mishap. And of course the return fire.....

What's the better anti-necron build? fast wraiths vs warrior blocks and ?? vs fliers. What do you guys think?

 DarthSpader wrote:
Try my cryptek squad. 4 crypteks, with voltaic staffs ( 4 haywire shots EACH) and a 5th cryptek with a veil. All in one unit. Teleport next to tank, it goes away. Next turn, repeat. Only risk is a bad scatter/mishap. And of course the return fire.....

Something I like to try to reduce the scatter/mishap scare is go 3 Volteks, 1 ChronoTek, 1 Veiltek. Use the chrono to reroll. Sure, less haywire shots, but 12 haywire shots should be plenty to glance ANYTHING to death.

4 Storm-teks is a little overkill, two will usually do the trick (all you have to do is not roll thee 1s and you've wrecked almost every vehicle in the game, after all).

Might be a better idea to attach a couple of them to a unit of Warriors/Immortals in a Nightscythe (better make that two units of Warriors/Immortals in Nightscythes with a two Storm-teks each).
That way you can take down more than one vehicle at a time, AND possibly be able to deal with the contents of said vehicle, should anything spill out after it pops. (not to mention the fact that that will give you two extremely mobile scoring units, AND a couple more Tesla Destructors on the field).

Hey guys, I seem to have an obsession with the Doom ark and I just finished assembling a pair and was wondering what a good list they would fit into would look like

sudojoe wrote:What's the better anti-necron build? fast wraiths vs warrior blocks and ?? vs fliers. What do you guys think?

Balance. I like running 1x Doom Scythe, 2x Nightscythes and then Wraiths for my TAC lists.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Hey guys, I seem to have an obsession with the Doom ark and I just finished assembling a pair and was wondering what a good list they would fit into would look like

I don't think you really need to build your list around these; they're already ten-ton hammers. Just make sure you can reliably pop transports (not hard for Necrons) and suddenly the rest of the battlefield looks like a bunch of nails.

 Exalted Pariah wrote:
Hey guys, I seem to have an obsession with the Doom ark and I just finished assembling a pair and was wondering what a good list they would fit into would look like

You may want a stalker in the army. It can give your expensive arks twin linked shots. Nothing's sadder then continuously scattering large pie plates off their targets.
Keep away from assault heavy units, too. The last thing you need is lunch guard or other high priced unit in danger of getting hit by your own guns.

Will do. My stalker isnt finished but I intend to have 12 wraiths draw the enemies fire and solar pulses to make sure my army is safe. (once It's done I'll run 3 Doomarks )

 DarthSpader wrote:
Try my cryptek squad. 4 crypteks, with voltaic staffs ( 4 haywire shots EACH) and a 5th cryptek with a veil. All in one unit. Teleport next to tank, it goes away. Next turn, repeat. Only risk is a bad scatter/mishap. And of course the return fire.....

Wasted potential. 2 Voltaic Staffs would be enough. Furthermore, the unit would get shot to bits in a single turn. A squad of 5 Necron Warriors can be shot down by anything.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:
Try my cryptek squad. 4 crypteks, with voltaic staffs ( 4 haywire shots EACH) and a 5th cryptek with a veil. All in one unit. Teleport next to tank, it goes away. Next turn, repeat. Only risk is a bad scatter/mishap. And of course the return fire.....

Wasted potential. 2 Voltaic Staffs would be enough. Furthermore, the unit would get shot to bits in a single turn. A squad of 5 Necron Warriors can be shot down by anything.

Yeah, but that's not really a big deal as long as you get to shoot first (and you should, or you're not playing them right).
I see the Storm-Trooper Squad as disposable, much like the Death & Despair Squad (you point them at a thing, the thing dies. If they die afterward, *shrug*, no big deal, they've served their purpose, move on to more important things).

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, but that's not really a big deal as long as you get to shoot first (and you should, or you're not playing them right).

So essentially, you pay 160 points at the very least to blow a single tank up? Uhm...

A squad of Heavy Destroyers is 180 points and while not being as likely to blow a vehicle up in a single turn, they fire 3 shots in every turn.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, but that's not really a big deal as long as you get to shoot first (and you should, or you're not playing them right).

So essentially, you pay 160 points at the very least to blow a single tank up? Uhm...

So long as that tank is a threat, yes. Yes I would throw 160 points at my opponent's linchpin, so long as it's strategically important (it's not like I'm just randomly pointing them at Rhinos. I see a threat, I take the threat out. Same tactic as the Death & Despair squad, and neither them nor the Storm-Trooper squad have failed me yet).

 skoffs wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, but that's not really a big deal as long as you get to shoot first (and you should, or you're not playing them right).

So essentially, you pay 160 points at the very least to blow a single tank up? Uhm...

So long as that tank is a threat, yes. Yes I would throw 160 points at my opponent's linchpin, so long as it's strategically important (it's not like I'm just randomly pointing them at Rhinos. I see a threat, I take the threat out. Same tactic as the Death & Despair squad, and neither them nor the Storm-Trooper squad have failed me yet).

Too many points thrown into a unit that will serve only one purpose. Not to mention you must purchase a transport in addition to those points. For 10 points less i would rather have a full 10 base scarab squad. Far more durable, 30 wounds vs 6, run them with cover, maybe give stealth if you have Zandrekh, they eat anything. Far more versatile, far less thrown away but can be thrown away if needed, does the job your guy does, for less, and to more targets. Add in the ability to tarpit, destroy fortifications, bone an IC/MC out of his armor save, destroy any tank it wants, or almost any infantry it wants and you end up with a cheaper more effective more versatile better mor competative unit for simply put, less points. Oh, and btw, no transport needed either, so thats 110 points saved, which you can use to buff a squad in a night scythe so that it is not a suicidal throw away unit because, hey, guess what? You need troops at the end of the game!

You're welcome.

 Dave-c wrote:
many words

yes.
Scarab Farm.
Yeah, that's was cool, too.
I suppose if I wasn't already running a full Wraith Wing I might consider reusing that tactic.
In the mean time, what with my FA slots already being full, I've found Storm-tek + Warriors in a Nightscythe to be a perfectly viable anti-vehicle measure for the time being.

But to any new players who might be reading through this, Scarab Farm was/is a decent way to deal with tanks and the like... provided they can get there and avoid all the templates people tend to throw at them.

 skoffs wrote:

 Dave-c wrote:
many words

yes.
Scarab Farm.
Yeah, that's was cool, too.
I suppose if I wasn't already running a full Wraith Wing I might consider reusing that tactic.
In the mean time, what with my FA slots already being full, I've found Storm-tek + Warriors in a Nightscythe to be a perfectly viable anti-vehicle measure for the time being.

But to any new players who might be reading through this, Scarab Farm was/is a decent way to deal with tanks and the like... provided they can get there and avoid all the templates people tend to throw at them.

Would you say that 5 warriors + stormtek is enough to pop a land raider?

5 warriors rapid firing should get atleast one glance and storm tek should get 3.

the thing i have found with using my cryptek squad... is that if you veil them in, and present threats such as doom arcs, fliers, immortals, warriors, wraiths etc, that tiny squad of guys teleporting in on the corner...sometimes they are just ignored. use them to pop a land raider, or the big guns in the back field. its a sneaky kind of unit, thats only 160 pts... for necrons thats pretty cheap. or at least mid range. plus, with ever living they do have a tad bit of survivability. sneak a res orb lord in there if you want the extra insurance.

betting on gauss.... i wouldnt. 20 warriors at long range get 20 shots, 14 hit, and maybe 2-3 glances? and that unit is 260 pts, with no court add on, and no mobility. the cryptek squad can get in posistion without taking a hit first, and practically gaurentees the tank it shoots will die. you might even be able to take another few out as well before they all drop.

I think I made a list that incorporates a good of vehicle destruction as well as objective control. Tell me what you guys think. I plan on using this list against my friend who is a space wolves player and runs a good deal of rhinos and razorbacks.

HQ
Destroyer Lord (MSS, Res Orb, Sempiternal Weave)
Nemesor Zanhdrekh

Royal Court
Harbinger of the Storm (Voltaic Staff)
Harbinger of the Storm (Voltaic Staff)

Troops
10 Necron Immortals
8 Necron Warriors (Night Scythe)
7 Necron Warriors (Night Scythe)

Fast Attack
6 Wraiths (3x Whips Coils)

Heavy Support
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

1500 points

... tactics thread keeps turning into a "hey guys, what do you think about my list?"

(why don't you try posting in the army list section?)

 skoffs wrote:

 Dave-c wrote:
many words

yes.
Scarab Farm.
Yeah, that's was cool, too.
I suppose if I wasn't already running a full Wraith Wing I might consider reusing that tactic.
In the mean time, what with my FA slots already being full, I've found Storm-tek + Warriors in a Nightscythe to be a perfectly viable anti-vehicle measure for the time being.

But to any new players who might be reading through this, Scarab Farm was/is a decent way to deal with tanks and the like... provided they can get there and avoid all the templates people tend to throw at them.

I said nothing of the sort. I have never scarab farmed. I use scarab squads, no spiders. I cant afford to use anything but annihilation barges in my heavy slots, anything else simply isnt efficient compared to those things.

What i was saying is a 10 man squad of scarabs does more, is more durable, does not require a transport to be effective, and can kill more targets for less points. So they cost 110 lesser points than the unit that is being described, and is essentially more effective in almost every way. They can be on the other side of the board at the same time as a flyer arriving on turn 2. They are capable of killing MORE types of targets.

i did not mention anything about buffing that unit with spyders/farming, i honestly find that kind of silly, Scarabs are so good now that they dont need to be farmed. As for templates, cover makes a big deal, as well as target saturation and positioning.

To be short, my statement was "Point for point, scarabs do what you want to do better, can do many other things better, adn cost fewer points by far."

Sometimes i find myself having to simplify things.

 Dave-c wrote:
yet more words

Oh, no simplification was necessary, I think it's pretty safe to say everyone here knows how good Scarabs are.
Nor was I saying they WEREN'T everything you said they were. Quite the opposite, in fact (the very first thing I did was agree with you, after all).
I followed up by citing a well known tactic (Scarab Farm), and my reason for not using them (a full FA slot), thus using Storm-tek + Warriors in a Nightscythe as my go-to anti-vehicle measure.

To be short, "Cool story, bro, but I'm doing something different."
Honestly, you kids and your need to always be right, even when no one said you were wrong...

Quick question. If Nemesor Zahndrekh gives a unit of warriors in a night scythe tank hunters does the night scythe also benefit from the buff?

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
5 warriors rapid firing should get atleast one glance and storm tek should get 3.

Recently, in an RTT, I had bad luck with my Warriors glancing tanks to death. In the final vs. Death Guard, a 10 men Warrior unit wasn't able take down a Predator via two rounds of shooting. Man, this was frustrating. But at the end, my Necrons came on top with minimal casualties and the DG army almost wiped out.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
5 warriors rapid firing should get atleast one glance and storm tek should get 3.

Recently, in an RTT, I had bad luck with my Warriors glancing tanks to death. In the final vs. Death Guard, a 10 men Warrior unit wasn't able take down a Predator via two rounds of shooting. Man, this was frustrating. But at the end, my Necrons came on top with minimal casualties and the DG army almost wiped out.

What was your list like?

 sounddemon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
5 warriors rapid firing should get atleast one glance and storm tek should get 3.

Recently, in an RTT, I had bad luck with my Warriors glancing tanks to death. In the final vs. Death Guard, a 10 men Warrior unit wasn't able take down a Predator via two rounds of shooting. Man, this was frustrating. But at the end, my Necrons came on top with minimal casualties and the DG army almost wiped out.

What was your list like?

My list? Well, its not a secret: Overlord w/ warscythe, mss, ccb; DLord w/ mss, weave, 2x 6 Wraiths w/ coils(x3), 4 Nightscythes transporting 5,5,10 Warriors and 10 Immortals, 2 ABs.

 sounddemon wrote:
Quick question. If Nemesor Zahndrekh gives a unit of warriors in a night scythe tank hunters does the night scythe also benefit from the buff?

No, the warriors and the Nightscythes are two different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
5 warriors rapid firing should get atleast one glance and storm tek should get 3.

Recently, in an RTT, I had bad luck with my Warriors glancing tanks to death. In the final vs. Death Guard, a 10 men Warrior unit wasn't able take down a Predator via two rounds of shooting. Man, this was frustrating. But at the end, my Necrons came on top with minimal casualties and the DG army almost wiped out.

As nice as it is to have cheap troop unit being able to glance tank to death you can't rely on it at all. My luck with warriors in general is terrible, in the last 6 months I doubt if they have ever killed a unit let alone a tank. With this is mind I still use lance teks and storm teks for anti tank duty.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
5 warriors rapid firing should get atleast one glance and storm tek should get 3.

Recently, in an RTT, I had bad luck with my Warriors glancing tanks to death. In the final vs. Death Guard, a 10 men Warrior unit wasn't able take down a Predator via two rounds of shooting. Man, this was frustrating. But at the end, my Necrons came on top with minimal casualties and the DG army almost wiped out.

What was your list like?

My list? Well, its not a secret: Overlord w/ warscythe, mss, ccb; DLord w/ mss, weave, 2x 6 Wraiths w/ coils(x3), 4 Nightscythes transporting 5,5,10 Warriors and 10 Immortals, 2 ABs.

I'm thinking about running 2 groups of 6 wraiths 3x whip coils in my 1750 list. Just how good is 2 sets of wraiths. I would imagine it would be very good.

Next time I'll drop the Overlord and add 3 more Wraiths and another Barge. The Overlord in a chariot is more a liability in some match ups

 wuestenfux wrote:
Next time I'll drop the Overlord and add 3 more Wraiths and another Barge. The Overlord in a chariot is more a liability in some match ups

Agreed, that combo, while it can be effective, tends to not live past turn 2, and usually only gets one shot in before it goes down and goes down hard.

3 Annihilation barges seems the best way to go for heavy support.

I agree about the CCB. I want to like it but it is just to much of an in your face target for opponents, and is to fragile to be effective. For heavy supports IMO, you should always have1 Doomscythe. It is just to much awesome sauce to not take 1.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I agree about the CCB. I want to like it but it is just to much of an in your face target for opponents

Well, that in and of itself can be a useful tactic. Flooding the table with so many high priority targets at once was the basic idea behind jy2's MTO build, and as I recall, that thing was EXTREMELY effective. (Wraiths, Doomscythes, CCBs, which one do you hit first?)

quick question, If a scarab wounds something that has FNP, and that something fails armor but makes FNP, is the armor striped or not?

ive actually had pretty good luck with CCb - using them as flankers, hiding out of LOs for a turn or 2, then going as fast as possible and just sweeping something. ive run dual CCB overlords with pretty good results.

as far as presenting multiple targets, a great fire magnet is a monolith (backed by some spiders to repair it) 20 warriors, an arc and a orb lord. the monolith is really sort of optional, but it CAN draw fire like nothing else, and with repair support in place can actually take a solid few rounds of shooting (barring that lucky pen or a large amount of glances) the warriors themselves are also pretty good at taking a pounding, and with the arc in support they should stay up and ticking for a while.

tatics also depend on who and what your fighting as well.

ive actually had pretty good luck with CCb - using them as flankers, hiding out of LOs for a turn or 2, then going as fast as possible and just sweeping something. ive run dual CCB overlords with pretty good results.

Two Overlords in chariots might be a better deal than just one. They could work in concert. But a single one just doesn't cut it.

 skoffs wrote:
... tactics thread keeps turning into a "hey guys, what do you think about my list?"

(why don't you try posting in the army list section?)

I tried.

 wuestenfux wrote:

ive actually had pretty good luck with CCb - using them as flankers, hiding out of LOs for a turn or 2, then going as fast as possible and just sweeping something. ive run dual CCB overlords with pretty good results.

Two Overlords in chariots might be a better deal than just one. They could work in concert. But a single one just doesn't cut it.

I've only used the CCB in a few games in 6th due to the fact that he Destroyer Lord fantastic now and I am still unsure on how the rules work for the Chariot , every time I do run CCB they take 2 turn to get into sweep attack range then die horribly to metla/power fists. I charge a unit, kill a few chumps, then said unit moves around the CCB and meltas the rear Armour. I guess the unit would work better against tanks or infantry that don't have metla/power fists.

Do you guys think there needs to be a FAQ on the Chariot as it doesn't say in the BRB that you can't split your attacks in melee between the Barge and the Overlord. Also if the the Overlord dies on the Barge does he get his Ever living roll, and do you return to the barge or outside? To me if feels as this if not much play testing was done on this new unit.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:


I've only used the CCB in a few games in 6th due to the fact that he Destroyer Lord fantastic now and I am still unsure on how the rules work for the Chariot , every time I do run CCB they take 2 turn to get into sweep attack range then die horribly to metla/power fists. I charge a unit, kill a few chumps, then said unit moves around the CCB and meltas the rear Armour. I guess the unit would work better against tanks or infantry that don't have metla/power fists.

That's why CCB are terrible now. Only having a sweep distance of 12'' makes them useless. I can easily lose out on the HoW attacks if I could just my old sweep range back. I actually glued the cannons on my Barges now. No point in having an alternative if the alternative is so much worse.

Kamikaze units can be fun, but seriously, paying180 points at the very least for a HQ kamikaze? Not gonna happen.

I have found the CCB very useful, but completely differently than I used them in 5th.

Instead of having them fly across the battlefield slicing through units, I keep them as a free safety, essentially giving my OL the ability to be anywhere I need him for support next turn. (He's my Rodney Harrison, for any Patriots fans out there) It effectively gives him a jump pack, as he can move 6, disembark 6 and still assault 2d6... I have used this to have him jump in with my wraiths when they need MSS help, or to support some other elements of my army. Also, keeping the CCB from being an "in your face" threat gives me a lot of mobility come late game, as the chariot is often ignored. Also, once the OL is in the fight, the CCB can go off and hammer of wrath remnants of units, or hit dev squads and things of that like to keep the enemies focus off of your main force.

Tactically they have changed quite a bit, but with a little experimentation and imagination, I think they are a great choice for an OL, if you aren't planning on having him sit in a blob somewhere.

---
An example... someone is forcing a land raider full of assault termies down your throat... a fairly common sight. With your CCB/OL you can bait the raider in, wreck it with gauss (and haywire), swoop over the termies in the CCB (hopefully killing one or two), disembark your OL, join a wraith unit or praetorians, then assault the termies with the odds already in your favor. I have done this many times before (facing different deathstars), swallowing over 500 points of my enemy in the first couple turns with barely any casualties dealt to me. It's very hard for any alpha strike assault force to get in there if you have this powerful MSS carrying OL flying about.

**Note - When I field him like this I go all out so he is about 255 points including the CCB (OL - WS, MSS, SW, PS, CCB), this is to ensure he is the perfect swiss army knife for any deathstar or hellatious character the enemy sends forth. Just be careful of weight of fire... eventually you'll fail those 2+3++ saves.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
I have found the CCB very useful, but completely differently than I used them in 5th.

Instead of having them fly across the battlefield slicing through units, I keep them as a free safety, essentially giving my OL the ability to be anywhere I need him for support next turn. (He's my Rodney Harrison, for any Patriots fans out there) It effectively gives him a jump pack, as he can move 6, disembark 6 and still assault 2d6... I have used this to have him jump in with my wraiths when they need MSS help, or to support some other elements of my army. Also, keeping the CCB from being an "in your face" threat gives me a lot of mobility come late game, as the chariot is often ignored. Also, once the OL is in the fight, the CCB can go off and hammer of wrath remnants of units, or hit dev squads and things of that like to keep the enemies focus off of your main force.

Tactically they have changed quite a bit, but with a little experimentation and imagination, I think they are a great choice for an OL, if you aren't planning on having him sit in a blob somewhere.

---
An example... someone is forcing a land raider full of assault termies down your throat... a fairly common sight. With your CCB/OL you can bait the raider in, wreck it with gauss (and haywire), swoop over the termies in the CCB (hopefully killing one or two), disembark your OL, join a wraith unit or praetorians, then assault the termies with the odds already in your favor. I have done this many times before (facing different deathstars), swallowing over 500 points of my enemy in the first couple turns with barely any casualties dealt to me. It's very hard for any alpha strike assault force to get in there if you have this powerful MSS carrying OL flying about.

**Note - When I field him like this I go all out so he is about 255 points including the CCB (OL - WS, MSS, SW, PS, CCB), this is to ensure he is the perfect swiss army knife for any deathstar or hellatious character the enemy sends forth. Just be careful of weight of fire... eventually you'll fail those 2+3++ saves.

Why waste the points? Load him into an ark with a warrior squad, then once he is out he has fire support, also the rear armor is far more difficult to get at on an ark,, the thing is a frigggin cigar man. Great tactic is to go personal traits, then if you score the outflank to him and his unit outlfank the whole damn ark, yea thats going to cause havoc, I've been lucky with getting that before! Points saved-80, KP saved 1, go spend them on something else!

255 points for a single model? Uhm...that does not seem very points-effective to me...

It's no worse than paying for The Stormlord with a Chronometron or some other expensive HQ choices. This tactic works for me and I encourage you to try it.

I have run him in with a warrior squad in a GA, but honestly, he's not as flexible and does not mesh as well with the lists I try to run, though honestly I have only tried that once so far in 6th.

and I suppose if we're figuring point value into the equation we have to look at the lists total points, and most often I am playing at 1750+, and this 255 point hog has been in almost every one (unless I'm running Cron Air). He has only died a couple times in almost a year of game play.

So I'm new to Necrons and have a question: I see a lot of lists with Deathmarks and a Despair-Tek, sometimes with the Despair-Tek with no options. What is it about this combo that makes people use it? I thought it was because of the VoD, but like I said, I see many lists without it.

Cruz wrote:
So I'm new to Necrons and have a question: I see a lot of lists with Deathmarks and a Despair-Tek, sometimes with the Despair-Tek with no options. What is it about this combo that makes people use it? I thought it was because of the VoD, but like I said, I see many lists without it.

So, this unit works because the deathmark squad gives the cryptek their special rule hunter from hyperspace. The cryptek type comes with a str 8 ap1 template that rolls vs LD, which usually means it wounds on roughly a 5 or 6. Now it wounds on a 2. Pile these kids into a night scythe and have a 36' move plus a 6" disembark for a threat range of 42" plus template and gun range, pick a target, make it die easily. Quick, deadly and effective.

24" move, otherwise it's snap shots only in which case the template can't fire.

 Dave-c wrote:

Cruz wrote:
So I'm new to Necrons and have a question: I see a lot of lists with Deathmarks and a Despair-Tek, sometimes with the Despair-Tek with no options. What is it about this combo that makes people use it? I thought it was because of the VoD, but like I said, I see many lists without it.

So, this unit works because the deathmark squad gives the cryptek their special rule hunter from hyperspace. The cryptek type comes with a str 8 ap1 template that rolls vs LD, which usually means it wounds on roughly a 5 or 6. Now it wounds on a 2. Pile these kids into a night scythe and have a 36' move plus a 6" disembark for a threat range of 42" plus template and gun range, pick a target, make it die easily. Quick, deadly and effective.

Exactly, except if you move more than 24", you can only snapfire.
(best way to look at is basically consider the Deathmarks as a 95 point upgrade to the Dispair-tek that lets him wound on a 2+.)

oop, ninja'd.

 skoffs wrote:

 Dave-c wrote:

Cruz wrote:
So I'm new to Necrons and have a question: I see a lot of lists with Deathmarks and a Despair-Tek, sometimes with the Despair-Tek with no options. What is it about this combo that makes people use it? I thought it was because of the VoD, but like I said, I see many lists without it.

So, this unit works because the deathmark squad gives the cryptek their special rule hunter from hyperspace. The cryptek type comes with a str 8 ap1 template that rolls vs LD, which usually means it wounds on roughly a 5 or 6. Now it wounds on a 2. Pile these kids into a night scythe and have a 36' move plus a 6" disembark for a threat range of 42" plus template and gun range, pick a target, make it die easily. Quick, deadly and effective.

Exactly, except if you move more than 24", you can only snapfire.
(best way to look at is basically consider the Deathmarks as a 95 point upgrade to the Dispair-tek that lets him wound on a 2+.)

oop, ninja'd.

I know what you're saying, but those Deathmarks do a decent amount of damage themselves, particularly in rapid fire range, with precision shots to boot.

I haven't had much success without the Cryptek attached. Realistically vs their marked unit they are hitting 7 times, wounding 6 with a single rend followed by 4 ish MeQ saves made, and if you want to look at 4+ or 5+ saves then maybe you marked the wrong unit. Or in the case of playing vs hordes that only have 5+/6+ saves then you get a lot more mileage by attaching a flamer template. Ultimately in my opinion the VoD tek just adds so much utility it's hard to justify leaving it out when taking Deathmarks.

 Lukus83 wrote:
I haven't had much success without the Cryptek attached. Realistically vs their marked unit they are hitting 7 times, wounding 6 with a single rend followed by 4 ish MeQ saves made, and if you want to look at 4+ or 5+ saves then maybe you marked the wrong unit. Or in the case of playing vs hordes that only have 5+/6+ saves then you get a lot more mileage by attaching a flamer template. Ultimately in my opinion the VoD tek just adds so much utility it's hard to justify leaving it out when taking Deathmarks.

I'll add that you'd be wanting to take a Night scythe for this unit to get the best positioning on your flamer, deep striking is far to random as you have a 2/3 chance of scattering and then being very venerable to blasts.

Deathmarks with the Despair Cryptek are anti death stars/ Force multiplier units. A unit of 5 with a HoD work well and are likely to cripple an emery unit and are cost effective. 10 with 2 HoD will blow most units of the board but is a big investment as you need two Royal Courts.

its worth noting that HoD can never insta kill models as they wound on leadership instead of toughness.

i was under the impression that a CCB was a fast skimmer, so it could go 18" in the movement phase, wich is when the sweep occurs. then you can move further as a flatout move in the shooting phase.

so move 18: sweep, hitting on 4+
then move another 12" in the shooting phase.

also, you dont have to go straight line. i have on multiple occasions moved something like 12" to make contact, then turn and move the other 6". resolve the sweep then move further in the shooting phase.

unless im missing something and this is not allowed? (no one has said anything in our group about this, and we have some pretty intense rule lawyers who are good at catching these kind of things)

 DarthSpader wrote:
so move 18: sweep, hitting on 4+
then move another 12" in the shooting phase.

I think you've got this backwards.... 12" in the movement phase.... 18" more in the shooting phase if a fast skimmer goes Flat out. So, only on that 12" movement can it sweep.

but the process still the same... move up, sweep, move away. profit.

if you do it correctly, and even spin your vehicle around, you can prevent rear arc shots, and stay far away enough to mitigate most incoming fire.

combine a pair of these with night scythes, immortals, scarabs, monoliths, wraiths etc and the CCB should be pretty safe, since your saturating serious threats. works well enough for me here, and ive won a few tourneys using a pair of CCB overlords. i find they are especially awsome at taking out tanks and other vehicles.. even dreads. str7+2d6+2 armor pen on rear armor? thanks!

 DarthSpader wrote:
but the process still the same... move up, sweep, move away. profit.

if you do it correctly, and even spin your vehicle around, you can prevent rear arc shots, and stay far away enough to mitigate most incoming fire.

combine a pair of these with night scythes, immortals, scarabs, monoliths, wraiths etc and the CCB should be pretty safe, since your saturating serious threats. works well enough for me here, and ive won a few tourneys using a pair of CCB overlords. i find they are especially awsome at taking out tanks and other vehicles.. even dreads. str7+2d6+2 armor pen on rear armor? thanks!

You're preaching to the choir here, man. I love the CCB. It isn't useful in every list, but it is definitely a great option. I tend to play against a lot of drop pod forces and having him sitting back in my deployment zone really discourages over confident players or over committed drop pods.

The only care where a CCB can prove useful is in a heavily melee-orientated army with more targets at the enemy's close range. In any other army, you either have to hide them until the rest of your army is close enough or try to get in sweep range and get destroyed by melta shots immediately (+3 on damage chart says hi).

With the exception of the aforementioned case, the CCB is inferor to most other choices.

Let's assume you have to Allie with Grey Knights. (I don't wish to discuss the merits of such an alliance, for the sake of argument it is assumed). What suggestions do some of you have for the Necron/Grey Knight build at 1850?

That-guy-that-makes-the-shoot-around-corners-guys-troops (Crowe?) and 1-2 squads of those guys.

Gives some nice dakka.

Alternatively: Draigo + paladins for the lulz.

Nah Dragio and paladins is not that good. I would go coteaz, 2 10 man strike squads, psyfleman dreads, dreadknight then add an overlord, 2 squads of warriors in night scythes with the haywire crypteks. Or something like that.

The CCB really is at its strongest vs vehicle heavy armies. Sweep a vehicle, pop it, and assault the disembarked units.

Using the CCB correctly is difficult and I would not suggest running it in a competitive environment, its too squishy against meltas and gets blown up too easily vs ap 1 weapons.

I agree with whoever said that the CCB is not point effective, 10 more points and you can get an annihilation barge which is by far from reliable and effective throughout the enitre longevity of the game.

The CCB looks cool and can do some massive damage but its very likely to be your opponents first target. If the barge gets popped before it gets to its target then your in a pickle.

I payed in a tourney a few months back, and used dual CCB with an overlord. All they had was mss and warscythe. I also had 2 units of immortals with tesla in night scythes, doom ark, 2 annihilation barges and 5 wraiths.

That army kicked some serious butt, and the CCB did most of that. Never even had to make it to assault, just kept sweep attacking. Found that while the barges were close, the wraiths night Scythes and immortals drew a lot more fire then the barges. Also, the doom ark took a decent amount of fire. All told the CCB fared pretty well. Had to use symbiotic repair a few times but otherwise they easily took care of the other sides serious threats.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Let's assume you have to Allie with Grey Knights. (I don't wish to discuss the merits of such an alliance, for the sake of argument it is assumed). What suggestions do some of you have for the Necron/Grey Knight build at 1850?

It will depend on what army will be used as primary detachment.

A decent Necron ally detachment is Overlord w/ CCB, 2x 5 Warriors w/ Night Scythes, Doom Scythe. Its about 575 pts in toto.

I agree with wuestenfux, the best way to field necron allies is with warriors in night scythes.

It also is a good idea to use the royal court available. HoS and Warriors are relatively good at capturing objectives and popping unwarranted vehicles.

I would suggest taking at least 2 Annihilation Barges. For 90 points, the barges provided a great deal of firepower and are extremely cost effective.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Let's assume you have to Allie with Grey Knights. (I don't wish to discuss the merits of such an alliance, for the sake of argument it is assumed). What suggestions do some of you have for the Necron/Grey Knight build at 1850?

It will depend on what army will be used as primary detachment.

A decent Necron ally detachment is Overlord w/ CCB, 2x 5 Warriors w/ Night Scythes, Doom Scythe. Its about 575 pts in toto.

I am running a primary Wraith Element, D. Lord, Doomscythe and Immortals in Night scythes. The GK to me serve as a counter to strong assault elements, and to fight against Daemons. The current meta at my venue is likely to see a full Daemon list in our next league, so that is where I feel obligated to bring an Element of GK to the table.

I don't really know much about daemons but i hear they have some nasty flamers.

If your going against them I would imagine several ether crystals (if thats the right name) would be highly effective vs daemons with all the deep striking that will be occuring.

Also you can abuse phased reinforcements pretty hard. The opposing player deep strikes the first turn and you can bring in your units via deep strike and table that fool on turn 2, if you do enough damage.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Let's assume you have to Allie with Grey Knights. (I don't wish to discuss the merits of such an alliance, for the sake of argument it is assumed). What suggestions do some of you have for the Necron/Grey Knight build at 1850?

It will depend on what army will be used as primary detachment.

A decent Necron ally detachment is Overlord w/ CCB, 2x 5 Warriors w/ Night Scythes, Doom Scythe. Its about 575 pts in toto.

I am running a primary Wraith Element, D. Lord, Doomscythe and Immortals in Night scythes. The GK to me serve as a counter to strong assault elements, and to fight against Daemons. The current meta at my venue is likely to see a full Daemon list in our next league, so that is where I feel obligated to bring an Element of GK to the table.

Well, if you plan to take GK as allies, then I'd go for 2x 10 GK Strikes in Rhinos led by an Inquisitor or Corteaz. You could combat squad one unit (with 2 psycannons in one unit and a daemon hammer in the other, where the cc unit could be led by the HQ). This comes down to about 500 pts.

 sounddemon wrote:
I don't really know much about daemons but i hear they have some nasty flamers.

If your going against them I would imagine several ether crystals (if thats the right name) would be highly effective vs daemons with all the deep striking that will be occuring.

I'd not recommend those. The problem is that stacking them is pretty useless due to the harsh restrictment of any further crystal only adding 1 (one) additional hit instead of 1d6 additional hits. I'd hit Zandrekh for his reserves ability.

Just a quick - I notice the monolith's not been mentioned much in these topics. Is it a and unit? TBH I'm looking at buying one, dropping into middle of board and watching enemy die. My nemesis has taken to fielding Death Company with his Guard, which sort of neutalises my close combat options. I need something fairly powerful to hurt Astorath, and thought the monolith would do the trick nicely!

The Monolith has its uses AV 14 all round, 4 Hull points, Living metal, Deep strike (sadly no immunity) S8 Ap3 Ordnance large Blast, 4 Assault 3 Gauss Flayers that can target four different units, ability to teleport any unit and can insta kill models with the door way of death.

The cons are its cost 200 pts, huge model so it is very rarely it will get a cover save , is heavy so it can only ever move 6'', can only snap shot its other guns if it fires its large blast, 24'' range, it can't deploy troops from it if it deep strikes til the next turn.

Is the Monolith a bad unit? Well it did get a nerf, it lost its immunity to metla/lance and used to be S9 large blast. The real reason it doesn't get motioned that often is Necrons have better choices in the Heavy Support slot. Annihilation Barge & Doom Scythes are both cheaper and are more deadly to infantry and tanks. All so both more cheaper to buy.

I will say if you face mainly power armor armies that Ap3 can be very useful, I love the Annihilation Barge since it can deal out a crazy amount of wounds, ( TL assault 4 S7 Tesla + Assault 2 S6 Tesla can get a max of 18 hits on a very lucky day) but at Ap - everyone get s amour save and if you opponent is rolling well they will lose very few models.

What do you guys think about the gloom prism? Is it the only way to stop psychic powers or is an allied detachment the way to go?

Best way to stop psychic powers? Firepower. Kill the enemy psyker before he/she gets you.

 King Pariah wrote:
Best way to stop psychic powers? Firepower. Kill the enemy psyker before he/she gets you.

Lol. This is the answer to everything.

It annoys me that the Gloom Prism isn't a purchasable wargear upgrade for Overlords/Royal Courts.
Seriously, the ONE defense we have against psychic powers, and it's on the Spyders?
Hell, if they had given it to the Monolith instead, maybe then it would have given everyone an excuse to use those things...

 skoffs wrote:
It annoys me that the Gloom Prism isn't a purchasable wargear upgrade for Overlords/Royal Courts.
Seriously, the ONE defense we have against psychic powers, and it's on the Spyders?
Hell, if they had given it to the Monolith instead, maybe then it would have given everyone an excuse to use those things...

It would have made a great upgrade to a cryptek, instead of soem of the useless ones, like the ether crystal, or aeonstave.

Wouldn't it be possible to use Nemesor Zanhndreks ability to leech on the opponents deep strike to get your monolith in early, when facing daemons for instance, and start deploying guys out of it in your own turn?

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible to use Nemesor Zanhndreks ability to leech on the opponents deep strike to get your monolith in early, when facing daemons for instance, and start deploying guys out of it in your own turn?

Yes, but the question is, would it SURVIVE that long?
Frst you've gotta avoid DS mishap, then you've gotta pray he doesn't have any melta in range, and even after that, he may still have some big guns that could pound the thing.
And even after you do manage to deep strike the thing in and have it survive until your turn, anything that comes out of it wouldn't be able to assault that turn anyway, so they'd just sit there for another game turn, having to weather their own hail of fire, not to mention potentially being assaulted themselves if your opponent has anyone in range before they can actually do anything.

Then consider for the same price as a Monolith, you could do the same trick with Zahndrekh and deep strike in a pair of Nightscythes (or MULTIPLE Nightscythes!) in your back field.
What do you think you're opponent's going to have a tougher time dealing with: one slow moving, currently-incapable-of-firing brick that has conveniently placed itself closer to melta range, or two fliers, both out of range of his guns, but will be zooming up 24" as soon as my turn rolls around to deposit Warriors & Storm-teks to wreck his vehicles, or Deathmarks & Despair-teks to obliterate his Deathstars (not to mention the massacre those pair of Tesla Destructors are going to visit upon his squishier infantry).

Necron Lords having gloom prism is brilliant.

I wish they could purchase that wargear.

Would be sick.

wich is why they dont get it...

if necrons had that kind of ability to get psychic defense it would make alot of non necron people very mad.

i play my necrons vrs a chaos player that LOVES to spam psykers and roll out boon of mutation, and his biomancy/telepathy etc spells. every game his psykers make a royal mess of things. however - for all his tricks i find that in the end my necrons can take it and still keep coming. if i had a psychic defense to actually reliably stop his psyker shenanagins, the games wouldnt even be close. the necrons would trounce.

Frankly, I'd love it if generic Necron Lords still had access to VoD as part of their wargear.

I've got a necron army I'm bringing out to play, I've been refreshing a few units.
I've been looking at the Megaforce.
It seems like a decent deal.
Looking at the GW price, it's £216 worth of stuff for £150.
I'm not seeing anything in there I can't use.
Warriors are always useful, I have 48 already, another 24 can't hurt.
The Spyder and Scarabs I can easily find a use for.
I already have a Triarch Stalker, and love it, and I've been trying out Tomb Blades and was going to get a couple more boxes anyway.
The CCB will be built as an Annihilation Barge, the Immortals will be Deathmarks (I have 20 Immortals already and I've got 5 Deathmarks/immortals in a box)
The only option I'm wondering about is the Ghost/Doomsday ark.
Big gun or transport?
What's the best option?

 marv335 wrote:
Big gun or transport?
What's the best option?

Depends. Do you have two of them? Do you also have one or two Stalkers? If so, then Doomsday Ark wouldn't be too bad (they really need Stalker support to make them shine).
If you don't have Stalkers, better off making them into Ghost Arks (at least then you can still have them as gun boats for your Royal Court to ride around in).

All in all, though, I'm not overly impressed with the 'Cron Megaforce. Looks like just another excuse to try to offload models that aren't selling as well (after all, let's face it: if they were really trying to make something competitive, those Tomb Blades would be Wraiths, and that Stalker a Nightscythe).

With the mega force I'll have two stalkers.
On reflection, and looking at my army, I'm thinking of the doomsday ark. It'll give me some long range firepower to alpha strike anything threatening.

If your looking to expand Necrons I see no reason not to purchase the mega force.

I would make a ghost ark instead of the doomsday ark. Doosmday arks are pretty meh if you ask me. Its hit or miss with them.

 skoffs wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
Big gun or transport?
What's the best option?

Depends. Do you have two of them? Do you also have one or two Stalkers? If so, then Doomsday Ark wouldn't be too bad (they really need Stalker support to make them shine).
If you don't have Stalkers, better off making them into Ghost Arks (at least then you can still have them as gun boats for your Royal Court to ride around in).

All in all, though, I'm not overly impressed with the 'Cron Megaforce. Looks like just another excuse to try to offload models that aren't selling as well (after all, let's face it: if they were really trying to make something competitive, those Tomb Blades would be Wraiths, and that Stalker a Nightscythe).

This, pretty much. Sure, Stalker + Doomsday might work. But...why would you? You could just roll IG instead, they got an entire army that's focused around this concept.

When it comes to the doomsday/ghost ark, I make it swappable so it can be either (though I end up playing it more often as the doomsday)

I like Stalkers, and as much as I can understand the dislike that surrounds them (they do cost a fair amount, and only really have the twin-linking which makes them stand out), I've found my Stalker to be quite good.

Opponents aren't quite sure what to do with it, especially when they have 2 Annihilation Barges and a Surflord in their face as well, not to mention a Spyder and Scarabs, two Warrior squads with Harpteks (I love these guys, nobody expects to be Entropic Struck from the other side of the board, and being S6 makes it a decent weapon, too) and Lanceteks (one of which is a Pulsetek, but both of them benefit from their squad's harp reducing armour and making it easier for the lance to cause damage), and a unit of Teslammortals with a Veiltek, Pulsetek, and Footlord with weave, an Orb and a Scythe (who also benefit from the harps by being S5, so anything AV12+ might be in for a nasty surprise if they get entropic struck and then hit by a cascade of S5 Tesla).

With the Stalker inside that army, it adds more of a "Okay, what happens now?" feel than there would be if I had a third AB, or a Scythe, more Spyders and Scarabs or even Wraiths. They're rare to see, so people don't anticipate them, and not many people remember that they're walkers, so they end up getting too close and I can then lock them up in CC against an AV13, Living Metal walker.

It further means that I can overwatch with the dispersed Heat Ray, which again, not many people expect, and whilst it might not be enough to turn the tide of a combat, it could well kill off the power fist charging first in order to make sure he reaches combat, or even the only guy able to get in. Even then, people expect to be smacking an AV11 rear, not an AV13 front.

He's also taken down Vulkan and Fuegan with focussed heat ray shots, but they're more ironic anecdotes than anything, and Fuegan was on his final wound after his first was Lanced, and his second was Harped, so the next wound he suffered would have killed him anyway; I just wanted it to be a melta one

All in all, my Stalker hasn't been the star of any games, but he hasn't been the "I wish I hadn't taken it, actually" choice, either.

What are your guys thoughts in the Necron vs Space wolves matchup? Who has the edge?

I have fielded the stalker a few times and found it sup par from the points.Its twin linking ability is nice but most of my army is TL already or the stalker is hunting for amour so its only troops being able to use this ability. admitted if your using a few ghosts Arcs then it really does shine. I prefer to take the TL Heavy Gauss cannon and sit in cover as its one of the few units that's ranges is over 24'' but costs 15 pts more with is a shame.

Being open topped, with fake Av 13 doesn't help either.

Walkers got a nerf thanks to grenades hitting on BS and units being able to auto lose combat, all so its only S7 with 2 attacks at I2 so its hardly going to be winning combats.

Marv, if you don't have more than one Ghost Ark then I would build that. I think the GA is one of the best all around units in the dex. I usually run two. They are tough to take down, can fire at 2 targets, and don't draw as much attention as they should, allowing you to get them (and the warriors inside) into some pretty advantageous positions. This is especially good in objective games, as once you unload the cargo you have split the targets and your opponent usually focuses on the infantry. Th GA meanwhile is still hammering things and also reinforcing that unit. With hull points, they are pretty good at taking out armor too. Lots of versatility for 100 pts.

I have 2 stalkers, but I unually only run one, and then only in lists where it makes sense. I find they tend to draw a lot of fire, which can be good and bad.

BlackMath wrote:
Marv, if you don't have more than one Ghost Ark then I would build that. I think the GA is one of the best all around units in the dex. I usually run two. They are tough to take down, can fire at 2 targets, and don't draw as much attention as they should, allowing you to get them (and the warriors inside) into some pretty advantageous positions. This is especially good in objective games, as once you unload the cargo you have split the targets and your opponent usually focuses on the infantry. Th GA meanwhile is still hammering things and also reinforcing that unit. With hull points, they are pretty good at taking out armor too. Lots of versatility for 100 pts.

I have 2 stalkers, but I unually only run one, and then only in lists where it makes sense. I find they tend to draw a lot of fire, which can be good and bad.

This guy knows his GA, and the correct quantity to use! Not to mention they are a great place to hide your hq choices and royal court selection. They are tough, until penetrated. As long as you either hide them or slightly shimmy them they can stay in one spot and last quite some time. If you are using Zandrekh you can apply stealth to them increasing that all important cover save, especially on those penetrating hits. 4 hp is rediculous.

A solid army build IMHO should include 4 troops choices, 2 in arks, two in scythes. This allows for an appropriate balance of forces, a combination of tough, fast, hard to hit, and leads to a mix of targets requiring your opponnent to be more versatile to handle your army.

My Stalker got pretty good again last night, being pretty much ignored until it TLed everything fired against a TSons unit with Ahriman, then the next turn dispersed heat-rayed a few of the sons down and charged the remnants, holding them down for another turn whilst my Overlord kept Ahriman busy. The only way he went down was through the Aspiring Sorcerer's melta bombs, since TSons don't come with krak grenades and Ahriman was in a Challenge.

He may not have made all his points back himself, but he aided pretty heavily in tearing apart the Sons squad, and took down enough Sons himself to stop Ahriman getting re-rolls whilst in the challenge when the Stalker finally went down, so I think he did well (that and my opponent handily forgot it was a walker until I declared the charge).

Ffyllotek wrote:
Just a quick - I notice the monolith's not been mentioned much in these topics. Is it a and unit? TBH I'm looking at buying one, dropping into middle of board and watching enemy die. My nemesis has taken to fielding Death Company with his Guard, which sort of neutalises my close combat options. I need something fairly powerful to hurt Astorath, and thought the monolith would do the trick nicely!

Ah my poor Monolith. I had been running one with Zahndrekh until the FAQ. I felt that the a monolith and Big Z worked well together. I would regularly reserve the Monolith and use Zahndrekh's ability to bring it in on my opponents turn if they had reserves. They always do and it allowed me to keep the Monolith away from drop podding units. It also created a new avenue of attack as on the next turn I would bring a unit of immortals through the portal and begin to flood a side of the board I had no threat on just a half turn before.

The FAQ got rid of the jink save, which Big Z could increase to 4+, and it prevented me from firing the particle whip at one target and the Gauss guns at another at full BS. Those really hosed the Monolith IMO. For a while it had been my only answer to a Harliestar formation. I would try and deep strike the Monolith fit next to the Harliestar and make them all make STR checks or get sucked into the portal.

I have a comment/question about the Triarch Stalker.

I am ressurecting a Chaos Space Marine army (old 3rd edition army), and I'd like to use some of my Necron guys as allies until I get my numbers up.

I was looking at the special rules for the Stalker and noticed the Targeting Relay ability says "All other friendly units" - so this would include allies. I guess my question is, have a missed a provision which does not allow this?

Twin linking some Hades Autocannon Forgefiends or many other choices in the Chaos army, might be a pretty awesome thing. Especially if you give the Stalker the Heavy Guass Weapon upgrade so he has TL and increased range.

Can anyone contest this? or has anyone used this?

Necrons are Allies of Convenience for CSM, and as such are treated as enemy units that you cannot shoot etc. So it would not include allies.

ok thank you. it didn't sound right.

Honestly, I love that they have covered their bases against many of these combos

What do you guys think about Imotekh vs Aegis Defense Lines? Night Fighting provides a good deal of support and also significantly helps vehicles. Jink + Stealth + Shrouded=2+ Cover Save;pretty good sis. In theory, it sounds pretty good and might be worth trying.

If the unit is in area terrain it gets a save or from abilities or terrain that always grants a save. The ADL is a specific type of battlement terrain and confers a cover save from attacks which draw LOS through it. Lightning is an effect of having the Stormlord in you army, not attacks from his model and there fore LoS isn't drawn from him and can effect units he can't see.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
If the unit is in area terrain it gets a save or from abilities or terrain that always grants a save. The ADL is a specific type of battlement terrain and confers a cover save from attacks which draw LOS through it. Lightning is an effect of having the Stormlord in you army, not attacks from his model and there fore LoS is drawn from him and can effect units he can't see.

Whats your view on units within battlements? Would they get their normal cover save when they are struck by lightning?

You are never within a battlement. Shots fired through battlements grant a cover save. Lightning doesn't fire through anything.

I've got another nooby question : Ghost Arks can carry a royal court, but the royal court doesn't list them as a transport. Does that mean that you can't deploy Ghost Arks with the court inside and they have to get into it in the first round instead?
And is it possible to have them as the dedicated transport for a unit that is deployed outside them? (So you can just take 20 Warriors + GA but let the court hop in first round and play as planned)

Yes. You have it right. I believe GW's intent was to allow IC and RC members attached to warriors ride in the Ark with warriors but The rule allows Royal Courts and IC to highjack the Ark on turn one. Also you are right in that you can take the Ark with squads larger than 10 models to use its repair ability on the larger squad or for other things to highjack.

What do you guys think about Nemesor Zahndrekh and Imotekh in the same list? Epic Strategic Awesomeness or a waste of points?

It's a lot of points, but the synergy is there. I have used this to give my Doomsday Ark Night Vision and rained down the fire. The main thing is the amount of points... and the allure of taking Vargard.

 sounddemon wrote:
What do you guys think about Nemesor Zahndrekh and Imotekh in the same list? Epic Strategic Awesomeness or a waste of points?

That choice means not taking a D. Lord and that is a choice I am not willing to make.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
What do you guys think about Nemesor Zahndrekh and Imotekh in the same list? Epic Strategic Awesomeness or a waste of points?

That choice means not taking a D. Lord and that is a choice I am not willing to make.

Only under 2000 points.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
What do you guys think about Nemesor Zahndrekh and Imotekh in the same list? Epic Strategic Awesomeness or a waste of points?

That choice means not taking a D. Lord and that is a choice I am not willing to make.

Only under 2000 points.

That choice would mean playing with a double force organization chart and that is a choice I am not willing to make.

The Destroyer Lord is very much linear. His role is to soak damage and do damage, not much strategy or tactical prowess in that imo.

I see Zahndrekh and Imotekh immediately changing the the entire scope of the battlefield through their abilities.

I'm still not very sure when it is the right time to field Imotekh.

 sounddemon wrote:
I'm still not very sure when it is the right time to field Imotekh.

Does your army have Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, Lychguard, and Doomscythes?
Time to field Imotekh.

(though, I do like the idea of giving a long range gun Nightvision via Zahndrekh).

 skoffs wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
I'm still not very sure when it is the right time to field Imotekh.

Does your army have Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, Lychguard, and Doomscythes?
Time to field Imotekh.

(though, I do like the idea of giving a long range gun Nightvision via Zahndrekh).

I only have one of those and that is two group of wraiths.

I like the endless amount of combos that both HQ's provide. You can give Imotekh tank hunters for vehicle hunting. Night vision on vehicles. Night also provides a super cover save with jink + stealth + shrouded when night fighting is in play.

There is just so much tactical and strategic options available when they are together. Remember they are the elites commanders of the Necrons in the fluff.

 sounddemon wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is very much linear. His role is to soak damage and do damage, not much strategy or tactical prowess in that imo.

Traditionally that was true, but with the changes to Preferred Enemy and with a Res Orb slapped on him he become a super squad multiplier that can be quickly redeployed from squad to squad with relatively fast movement. He's by far my favorite Cron unit now, largely because of how much quick response tactical flexibility he ads to my army.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is very much linear. His role is to soak damage and do damage, not much strategy or tactical prowess in that imo.

Traditionally that was true, but with the changes to Preferred Enemy and with a Res Orb slapped on him he become a super squad multiplier that can be quickly redeployed from squad to squad with relatively fast movement. He's by far my favorite Cron unit now, largely because of how much quick response tactical flexibility he ads to my army.

And with challenges he can take on non-fearless units in cc single handedly.

 sounddemon wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
I'm still not very sure when it is the right time to field Imotekh.

Does your army have Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, Lychguard, and Doomscythes?
Time to field Imotekh.

(though, I do like the idea of giving a long range gun Nightvision via Zahndrekh).

I like the endless amount of combos that both HQ's provide. You can give Imotekh tank hunters for vehicle hunting.

Huh? I wouldn't use Zandrekh on Imotekh just so he can reroll his armor penetration rolls with his Staff of Destruction or CC attacks..

 Jabbdo wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
I'm still not very sure when it is the right time to field Imotekh.

Does your army have Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, Lychguard, and Doomscythes?
Time to field Imotekh.

(though, I do like the idea of giving a long range gun Nightvision via Zahndrekh).

I like the endless amount of combos that both HQ's provide. You can give Imotekh tank hunters for vehicle hunting.

Huh? I wouldn't use Zandrekh on Imotekh just so he can reroll his armor penetration rolls with his Staff of Destruction or CC attacks..

I was actually thinking about giving Imotekh, tank hunters for the lightning. A little bit of luck and tank hunters can do alot of damage to a mechanized list.

Don't forget as long as night fighting continues there are more chances to strike blue.

Bear in mind that the Lightning doesn't actually benefit from Imotekh having Tank hunters.. Its not Imotekh causing those damage rolls personally, its just an effect that happens due to him being in the armylist, he doesn't even have to be alive anymore for the Lightning to continue. At least that's how I'd read it.

 Jabbdo wrote:
Bear in mind that the Lightning doesn't actually benefit from Imotekh having Tank hunters.. Its not Imotekh causing those damage rolls personally, its just an effect that happens due to him being in the armylist, he doesn't even have to be alive anymore for the Lightning to continue. At least that's how I'd read it.

People argue that point, but I agree with you that he doesn't. However you should note that he would not be allowed to make the roll for night fighting if he's dead as that *is* his roll. If the night fighting rules were in play through standard game rules (due to rolling it on turn 5 or some non-solar pulse method) then the lightning would continue.

The lord of the storm ability, while being one special rule, has two separate effects that are not directly tied to one another. There are those that argue this point with me, though, so this is just my interpretation and how I play it.

This is very interesting and would make an interesting point of discussion on YDMC.

One a sidenote, what is the overall census on Imotekh's lightning hitting flyers? Yay or Nay?

 sounddemon wrote:
This is very interesting and would make an interesting point of discussion on YDMC.

One a sidenote, what is the overall census on Imotekh's lightning hitting flyers? Yay or Nay?

Another one that was discussed ad nauseam in YMDC with no real answer.

House rule it for now, basically.

What are your guys thoughts about Zahndrekh a in CCB and having Obyron GWM next to him?

Has anyone had any success using heavy destroyers? In theory, they seem pretty good vs MEQ.

Heavy Destroyers are good for popping one or two Heavy Tanks. For example, an opponent who frequently brings a land raider, an opposing Monolith, or maybe a Hammerhead. Against armies with allot of tanks, like IG, the H. Destroyer doesn't have the volume of fire or ability to split it up in a way that makes it effective. The current Meta has people avoiding the 1 or 2 tank armies, so you will find it to not be very helpful. I personally like plain Destroyers on an ADL to give the quad gun Preferred enemy.

Major reason why the Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers don't get used is simply this...They are not needed, they are a waste of points in a support slot that has high demand units that have specific roles other units simply can not fill. Destroyers are either anti armor or anti heavy infantry, and that can be accomplished by more versatile useful units for less points, especially the anti tank side. and then that frees up room for wraiths and scarabs in that slot.

Fair enough?

You wouldn't say they still have a roll as reliable anti-TEQ?

Heavy Destroyers are slightly overcosted and thus underrated.

If you break it down, you have two actual choices in the heavy support section: Annhilation Barges and Doom Scythes. The former because they're cheap and the latter because they're stronk.

If you do not like playing with flyers (I personally hate flying Necrons), you either get 3 AB or have a spare slot - and that's where Heavy Destroyers come in. Heavy Destroyers excel at taking out Heavy Armor and TEQ.

I usually field 2 AB and 1 squad of 3 HD and boy, I like those guys. Zandrekh (You do bring him, don't you?) providing them Tank Hunter guarantess you 3 hits (PE) and (thanks to Tank Hunter) you get a good chance to destroy any vehicle in a single turn.

Sure, a Land Raider is tough with AV 14. But S9 means you only need a 5+ to glance and with Tank Hunter, you get to re-roll your roll. It's that awesome.

Furthermore, people forget about them being Jump Infantry. Not all tanks have 14 rear armor and even a Leman Russ will be shot to small pieces when hit in its rear armor. Not to mention you have a team of 3 lascannons that can move up to 12'' per turn. Not too bad.

Their downfall is their price - 60 points is too much, they should be about 50 points.

What about Harbingers of Destruction VS Heavy Destroyers?
-both have high strength / low AP
-both have range
-both have roughly the same amount of shots per point value (one H.Destroyer = 2 shots @ 60 points, two Destr-teks = 2 shots @ 70 points)

Harbingers: more wounds (2), can be split up for better target saturation, Ever Living, can abuse "look out sir".

H.Destroyers: tougher (5), faster, preferred enemy.

I can't pick a clear winner here...

H. Destroyers get 1 shot

 Sigvatr wrote:
Heavy Destroyers are slightly overcosted and thus underrated.

If you break it down, you have two actual choices in the heavy support section: Annhilation Barges and Doom Scythes. The former because they're cheap and the latter because they're stronk.

If you do not like playing with flyers (I personally hate flying Necrons), you either get 3 AB or have a spare slot - and that's where Heavy Destroyers come in. Heavy Destroyers excel at taking out Heavy Armor and TEQ.

I usually field 2 AB and 1 squad of 3 HD and boy, I like those guys. Zandrekh (You do bring him, don't you?) providing them Tank Hunter guarantess you 3 hits (PE) and (thanks to Tank Hunter) you get a good chance to destroy any vehicle in a single turn.

Sure, a Land Raider is tough with AV 14. But S9 means you only need a 5+ to glance and with Tank Hunter, you get to re-roll your roll. It's that awesome.

Furthermore, people forget about them being Jump Infantry. Not all tanks have 14 rear armor and even a Leman Russ will be shot to small pieces when hit in its rear armor. Not to mention you have a team of 3 lascannons that can move up to 12'' per turn. Not too bad.

Their downfall is their price - 60 points is too much, they should be about 50 points.

I'm not sure where all this talk about heavy support choices comes in, Destroyers (and Heavy Destroyers) are a fast attack choice.

Jabbdo wrote:Bear in mind that the Lightning doesn't actually benefit from Imotekh having Tank hunters.. Its not Imotekh causing those damage rolls personally, its just an effect that happens due to him being in the armylist, he doesn't even have to be alive anymore for the Lightning to continue. At least that's how I'd read it.

The Necron FAQ demonstrates that it is Imotekh's ability, as he is allowed to re-roll it if a Chronometron is in his unit.

Kevin949 wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
This is very interesting and would make an interesting point of discussion on YDMC.

One a sidenote, what is the overall census on Imotekh's lightning hitting flyers? Yay or Nay?

Another one that was discussed ad nauseam in YMDC with no real answer.

House rule it for now, basically.

Actually, we did get an answer. The Necron FAQ states that Imotekh can re-roll the lightning if a Chronometron is present in his unit, therefore the lightning is caused by Imotekh. So, if the Chronometron can affect Imotekh's lightning, then so can Tank Hunters.

EDIT: But using Zandrekh & Imotekh in one list for this purpose is a massively inefficient use of 410 points.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
H. Destroyers get 1 shot

Aw, son of a bitch, yeah, sorry, I don't know what I was thinking.
Regardless, I guess that just further swings things in the favor of Destr-teks.

Instead of starting a new thread, I'll use these one to ask if you gives have any advice on using Necrons in Kill team. I've never played Kill team but the game looks fun.

Our troops don't seem to cut it and since they act as individuals would they still get a RP. I do like the idea of taking Royal Court members but the question of would I be able to arises. Would taking 5 Wraiths be seen as cheesey?

Was kill team updated for 6th? No one plays here so I don't know. But my guess is that squads still count as a squad but ignore coherence restrictions. If that is the case an orb anywhere on the board would benefit the whole team and they would always get RP unless only character models are remaining. Kill team to me was never really meant for Necrons to run in, it was originally designed to fight Necrons.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Jabbdo wrote:Bear in mind that the Lightning doesn't actually benefit from Imotekh having Tank hunters.. Its not Imotekh causing those damage rolls personally, its just an effect that happens due to him being in the armylist, he doesn't even have to be alive anymore for the Lightning to continue. At least that's how I'd read it.

The Necron FAQ demonstrates that it is Imotekh's ability, as he is allowed to re-roll it if a Chronometron is in his unit.

Kevin949 wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
This is very interesting and would make an interesting point of discussion on YDMC.

One a sidenote, what is the overall census on Imotekh's lightning hitting flyers? Yay or Nay?

Another one that was discussed ad nauseam in YMDC with no real answer.

House rule it for now, basically.

Actually, we did get an answer. The Necron FAQ states that Imotekh can re-roll the lightning if a Chronometron is present in his unit, therefore the lightning is caused by Imotekh. So, if the Chronometron can affect Imotekh's lightning, then so can Tank Hunters.

EDIT: But using Zandrekh & Imotekh in one list for this purpose is a massively inefficient use of 410 points.

No, the roll to keep night fighting in effect is his. Nothing else is. In fact, if night fighting came back into play for whatever reason (other than a solar pulse) then the lightning would start up again. The lightning happens no matter what, imotekh could be dead or in reserves or whatever. The night fighting is the only aspect he controls, the lightning happens as long as night fighting rules are in play (except through solar pulse).

Lord of the Storm is two separate effects that are not reliant on one another for either to exist. Night Fighting being in effect is just a requirement for the lightning strikes to occur, but the lightning strikes are always active, just not generated.

lots of warriors

Kevin949 wrote:Lord of the Storm is two separate effects that are not reliant on one another for either to exist. Night Fighting being in effect is just a requirement for the lightning strikes to occur, but the lightning strikes are always active, just not generated.

I really do not want to get into this here, but I will say this: Go look at which page in the Necron Codex you can find the "Lord of the Storm" ability. Keeping that in mind, try to explain why that ability is not generated by Imotekh. Once you accept that Lord of the Storm is Imotekh's ability, as evidenced by it occurring in his listed special rules, and it's description of Imotekh controlling it, and generating it, then you will have no choice but to accept that the lightning can be re-rolled if a Chronometron is present in Imotekh's unit. You can't selectively pick half the rule; it's all or nothing. The Night Fighting and the Lightning generate from the same place because it is only one special rule; and the FAQ states that the Night Fighting can be re-rolled; therefore the lightning can as well (assuming you have the Chronometron to make that happen).

 azazel the cat wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Lord of the Storm is two separate effects that are not reliant on one another for either to exist. Night Fighting being in effect is just a requirement for the lightning strikes to occur, but the lightning strikes are always active, just not generated.

I really do not want to get into this here, but I will say this: Go look at which page in the Necron Codex you can find the "Lord of the Storm" ability. Keeping that in mind, try to explain why that ability is not generated by Imotekh. Once you accept that Lord of the Storm is Imotekh's ability, as evidenced by it occurring in his listed special rules, and it's description of Imotekh controlling it, and generating it, then you will have no choice but to accept that the lightning can be re-rolled if a Chronometron is present in Imotekh's unit. You can't selectively pick half the rule; it's all or nothing. The Night Fighting and the Lightning generate from the same place because it is only one special rule; and the FAQ states that the Night Fighting can be re-rolled; therefore the lightning can as well (assuming you have the Chronometron to make that happen).

You aren't listening or understanding. You play it your way, I'll play it my way. When/if it gets FAQ'd, we'll see who was right all along.

Is the silver tide still a viable tactic/list? Seems like wraithwing and air force have dominated the internet since 6e but I haven't seen much talk about the classic warrior swarm.

CrowSplat wrote:Is the silver tide still a viable tactic/list? Seems like wraithwing and air force have dominated the internet since 6e but I haven't seen much talk about the classic warrior swarm.

Yes it is. Augmented with Ghost Arks and maybe even a Triarch Stalker, the Silver Tide is still viable.

I get the impression people are saying "go big or go home" about different tactics. eg. 3 wraiths won't do much but 6 with a destroyer is amazing; 1 spyder won't do much but 3+ makes a nice scarab farm; 1 night scythe will get shot down but 3 or more are nasty...

If you made an army with a little bit of everything and no duplicate units, would it be too weak?

If you made an army with a little bit of everything and no duplicate units, would it be too weak?

I use a little bit of everything in my army and it does great.The only unit i take more then one of is immortals and I use two annihilation barges but it can be easily swapped for something else.

My basic set up is
Zandrekh
2 mid-large immortal squads (i use one of each)
a large Unit of wraiths
a mid size unit of Scarabs
Max Spiders( I use a gloom prism on one )
2 Anni barges
a Nightscythe(Deathmarks+despair )

phantajisto wrote:

If you made an army with a little bit of everything and no duplicate units, would it be too weak?

What you will often find is that an army list is picked so that it 'does something' its not really important for the purposes of the discussion what that something is. But in order to do something, you need the correct troops, in the correct quantities to both make it work, and to give it some redundancy. you will also probably use selections of units that complement each other.

For example:
3 wraiths are a hard hitting, but quite fragile unit, you can expect them to do 'ok' in a fight, but they don't have the toughness or wounds to stand up to much, 6 wraiths on the other hand, can tackle much larger units, and absorb a lot more punishment, and when you throw a destroyer lord in there, you will find they hit even harder because they have prefered enemy.

Spyders are a useful unit to have around, and they have a few nifty abilities, they can rpair vehicles, they can make you pretty much invulnerable to psychic powers, and they can add to units of scarabs. so if you are taking lots of scarabs, you should also take lots of spyders because their abilities complement each other superbly

Then there is the matter of redundancy. everything in your army does something, it has an effect on the game which will be largely unique to that unit, sure other units can do it as well, but not AS well, so if you take 1 destroyer with a heavy gauss cannon, for your dedicated longish range anti tank, and he dies, then you are out of long range anti tank units, so, most players tend to take doubles of important units so that when one of them inevitably snuffs it, they still have that capability on the tabletop,

What you will find if you take a little of everything is that while you will have the weapons to deal with just about anything, you won't have enough, and if you don't run multiples, your opponent can simply target the units that are the biggest threat to him, and remove them, its also a lot trickier to play an unfocussed list than it is a focussed one because it doesn't have a particular playstyle, or theme, and the units you have might not be the best choices for whatever it is you are trying to do

Thanks, that was an awesome reply and really cleared things up. While the list above does have variety, I can see it has redundancy too in the 2 barges, max spyders etc.

I've got loads of good unit combos and synergies out of this thread, but what would the different overall playstyles or strategies be?

I've found these:

- Air Force: Max DS and NS. Zip around shooting them up.

- Wraith Wing: Several big wraith units with Destroyer Lords. Lay into them.

- Silver Tide: Loads of Warriors, OrbLords and Ghost Arks. March across board refusing to die.

- Scarab Farm: 3-9 Spyders, lots of scarabs, Imotekh. Make it night and scuttle across board to tarpit infantry and eat vehicles. Add Destroyer Lords for more punch.

- AV13 Wall: Max out on Arks and Barges with a couple of Stalkers. Shoot up the enemy.


To be honest these strategies sound A. expensive, B. uninspiring... What else works well?

The above army builds are just the "more competitive" ones.
If you're not adverse to having fun, you could try one of the other builds from 5th that hasn't seen much action in 6th:
-TremorCrons
-Double Stalkers/MSU Warrior units with Lance-teks attached/tons of Tesla Immortals, Heavy Destroyers, Doomsday Arks (anything that will take advantage of the twin linking the Stalkers grant)
-Royal Court Disco Inferno

Otherwise, you're free to come up with your own variation.
I used to play with a list I'd nicknamed "Blitzkrieg".
Imotekh + Chrono-tek
"Storm-troopers" (Warriors in NS with Storm-tek)
"Shock-troopers" (Tesla Immortals)
Wraiths
Death & Despair squads
Scarabs & Spyders
Deathscythes
It was majority surgical-strike close proximity fighting (something you should really try to avoid with 'Crons), all just for fun (hence the whole "lightning" theme), but I still tried to make sure it had redundancy (if one anti-tank unit got taken out, I had back ups, etc).
It tore through a few armies in friendly games, but I don't think it's anywhere near competitive.
Still fun, though.

Just come up with an idea for what you want your army to do, and build around that.

phantajisto wrote:

To be honest these strategies sound A. expensive, B. uninspiring... What else works well?

Generally speaking, competitive lists are more effective because they quite often spam a unit, or combination of units, if you spam AV13 vehicles (ghost arks, doomsday arks, annihilation barges etc) then the ide is to have more AV13 units than your opponent can reliably deal with. most armies tend to have a balance of units with different abilities, and if you stretch their anti-tank abilities you can ensure that your vehicles can do their thing, and even if you lose a few of them, you still have plenty of them on the battlefield.
The same is also true of flier spam, and wraithspam. one unit of wraiths, or one flier can be dealt with, but when you run multiples, you can ensure that at least one of them will do what its supposed to. Spam armies are regarded as being somewhat overpowered, not because the units themselves are, but because you will have more of whatever it is you are spamming than your opponent can deal with.

There are plenty of combinations of units that work well, and the most commonly used lists are what are regarded as being the most competitive, and of course easiest to use. Wraith spam and flier spam are pretty much 'no brainer' army lists, and while they do require some skill to use, they are effective even in the hands of a novice, don't feel that you have to take them to stand a chance, because there are plenty of other tricks you can use that both catch your opponent off guard because its unconventional, and are horribly effective to boot

My own necron army is built along the following lines, the exact list varies with points.

Zahndrehk + Obyron
1-2 crypteks with veils of darkness
4+ units of immortals
1 unit of lychguard
2+ nightscythes
1+ doomscythe
maybe some annihilaion barges
if points allow tomb blades

the key is that i can drop my units where i want with transports, and teleport around the board with veils and obyron.

you can also try things like Orikan and a c'tan with writhing worldscape (not as effective as it used to be),
My favourite tactic from the book is combining whip coils with times arrow (for killing pretty much anything)
you can combine the abilities of Szeras and Anarkyr to make a unit of immortals REALLY nasty and base an army around that.

They key is, in my oppinion, to pick a 'theme' for your army, and it really doesn't matter what the theme is, and then base the rest of your list around that

madtankbloke wrote:

My own necron army is built along the following lines, the exact list varies with points.

Zahndrehk + Obyron
1-2 crypteks with veils of darkness
4+ units of immortals
1 unit of lychguard
2+ nightscythes
1+ doomscythe
maybe some annihilaion barges
if points allow tomb blades

Just as a note, you can't have a second Cryptek with a Veil of Darkness unless you include a second Overlord character. Obryon does not unlock a royal court, and since you can't take the same wargear options twice within the same court, you can't take a second Veil of Darkness legally without the second Overlord.

Thanks for all the advice. I really like the sound of the dual stalker list. What else would you put in it? I got the megaforce today so will be basing around that. Something like this?

Overlord/Anrakyr
4 Crypteks
8 Warriors x3
10 Immortals (Tesla)
2 Triarch Stalkers
3 Tomb Blades x2 (Particle Blasters)
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
+ box has Spyder and Scarabs

Strategy would be to put Target Relay on enemy units and blast them with things that benefit from TL. Pyrrhian Immortals would be key unit. Include Spyder to repair the Stalkers maybe. Could this work?

 skoffs wrote:

 DragonRider wrote:
10 Deathmarks in a NightScythe.

Hi, you must be new here.
(everyone knows it's FIVE Deathmarks in a Night Scythe AND a Despair-tek).


Also, Pro-Tip: try not to charge anything with Warriors.
Just don't.

I know I'm a little late to this party and I didn't read every stinkin' page of the tatica YET but...I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague. Obviously you need to be careful about what you charge however I have had success in charging all kinds of stuff. Recently I assaulted a 4 man unit of Eldar rangers with only 5 warriors. In another match I charged some tau crisis suits with, I think it was, a 10 man warrior unit. Would I assault a 10 man paladin squad? Uh, no. But under the right circumstances I could see warriors charging stuff. I also play a lot of wraiths and am looking at adding 40 orks as a meat shield distraction ally so maybe I'm just charge crazy, who knows...

phantajisto wrote:
Thanks for all the advice. I really like the sound of the dual stalker list. What else would you put in it? I got the megaforce today so will be basing around that. Something like this?

Overlord/Anrakyr
4 Crypteks
8 Warriors x3
10 Immortals (Tesla)
2 Triarch Stalkers
3 Tomb Blades x2 (Particle Blasters)
1 Annihilation Barge
1 Doomsday Ark
+ box has Spyder and Scarabs

Strategy would be to put Target Relay on enemy units and blast them with things that benefit from TL. Pyrrhian Immortals would be key unit. Include Spyder to repair the Stalkers maybe. Could this work?

Of course it could, but you want synergy with the TL ability. Zahndrek provides this better than Anyr, other than Anyr gets an arrow. Zahndrekh lets you get Tank Hunters, lets you get night vision to get those hits on the turns where its dark, lets you REMOVE STEALTH if its night fight... he's just too good. Also, even though the Annihilation Barge is AWESOME, he doesn't benefit from the twin-linking like the other stuff in your army.
Something that might work better:
Zahndrekh
Overlord
Double Destro-Court to be split up in twos across 5 infantry units
10 Tesla Immortals for Zahn and OL to hide in
4x5 Warriors with 2 of the destros a piece
2 monoliths or DD Arks
2 Stalkers

Thats about 1800, depending on upgrades, still leaves you 1 heavy slot, all of your fast... who knows, tomb blades? I've run a similar list a few times and beat Draigowing and a great player playing Eldar/Tau allies. Maybe look into the TL Heavy Gauss on the Stalkers to increase range.
Good luck!

^
If you're running that, I'd recommend the Doomsday Arks over the Monoliths (with the Stalkers packing Heavy Gauss Cannons).
The combined distance and accuracy these things will put out will be WELL worth it.

Also, tesla Immortals > Warriors, when you've got a Stalker.

Good idea, might to shave a few points here and there to make it all fit. I'd like to see the mathhammer on all of the twin linked tesla, especially when relating to having to snapfire at fliers.

No reason to not take A. barges even if you are trying to base it off a stalker twin-link strat. Also gives you some AA defense since I wouldn't waste a stalker trying to hit a flyer on a six.

Ok have to ask newbie questions but i want to straight some things to those with who I'm playing with ( yep, kind of "checkall" bastards )

-About that great idea of deathmarks+2xdespairtek in NS, take a trip->mark->drop off->unleash hell---->but! Do despairtec will also wound on 2+? since abyssal staff aims into target leadership not toughness...?

-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

-And about Wraiths with coils, do coils still working on next turns of cc with same units? (if wraiths stuck in cc for more then 1 round )

-Which unit would do better in cc combined with Obyron, Lychguards or Preatorians?

 Lithzur wrote:
Ok have to ask newbie questions but i want to straight some things to those with who I'm playing with ( yep, kind of "checkall" bastards )

-About that great idea of deathmarks+2xdespairtek in NS, take a trip->mark->drop off->unleash hell---->but! Do despairtec will also wound on 2+? since abyssal staff aims into target leadership not toughness...?

Yes, Despairteks would wound the marked unit on a 2+.

-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

The above. Wraiths are also good. Tesla Destuctors are good. Really, quite a few options for high T.

-And about Wraiths with coils, do coils still working on next turns of cc with same units? (if wraiths stuck in cc for more then 1 round )

Yes.

-Which unit would do better in cc combined with Obyron, Lychguards or Preatorians?

I would think LG for Obyron. Is blasphemous on the interewebs to mention them, but Flayed Ones actually pair with Oby pretty well too. Praetorians are ideal as a Destroyer Lord escort (they are really better then Wraiths in this regard, but most people haven't figured that out yet).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:
Ok have to ask newbie questions but i want to straight some things to those with who I'm playing with ( yep, kind of "checkall" bastards )

-About that great idea of deathmarks+2xdespairtek in NS, take a trip->mark->drop off->unleash hell---->but! Do despairtec will also wound on 2+? since abyssal staff aims into target leadership not toughness...?

Yes, Despairteks would wound the marked unit on a 2+.

-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

The above. Wraiths are also good. Tesla Destuctors are good. Really, quite a few options for high T.

-And about Wraiths with coils, do coils still working on next turns of cc with same units? (if wraiths stuck in cc for more then 1 round )

Yes.

-Which unit would do better in cc combined with Obyron, Lychguards or Preatorians?

I would think LG for Obyron. Is blasphemous on the interewebs to mention them, but Flayed Ones actually pair with Oby pretty well too. Praetorians are ideal as a Destroyer Lord escort (they are really better then Wraiths in this regard, but most people haven't figured that out yet).

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

Thx for fast reply

I would think LG for Obyron. Is blasphemous on the interewebs to mention them, but Flayed Ones actually pair with Oby pretty well too. Praetorians are ideal as a Destroyer Lord escort (they are really better then Wraiths in this regard, but most people haven't figured that out yet).

I was thinking about that combination as well and there is few "+" and "-" here. Coils grand to make sure wounds if not kills, wraiths have more A then preatorians and rending. Rod of covenantgot ap=2 but still s=5 ...not sure if it is a deal

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Lithzur wrote:


-What would You recommend to take against armies with higher then usual T (like nids and Chaos nurgle marines+deamons, those you mostly meet, cant say easy opponent for meh )

The above. Wraiths are also good. Tesla Destuctors are good. Really, quite a few options for high T.

If you're up against blobs of little nids, the Doomsday Ark puts down some nice holes in their formations.

Most of the time its loads of outflanking gstealers, hidden Ygstealrs and jumping from underground trygon leaving that damn whole for the rest of nids to come out from not mention about hes 'brother' mavloc and in all of that i find it hard way to avoid beeing lock in cc with rest of my crons

Speaking of Flayed Ones and Obyron, if you were running a list with Immotek, Zahn, Oby and Flayed ones, does the Oby's Ghostwalk Mantle allow you to deepstrike without scatter near the unit with Bloodswarm Scarabs?
Again, I don't see me ever doing this in a game, but hey, there's always a chance.

Brymm wrote:Speaking of Flayed Ones and Obyron, if you were running a list with Immotek, Zahn, Oby and Flayed ones, does the Oby's Ghostwalk Mantle allow you to deepstrike without scatter near the unit with Bloodswarm Scarabs?
Again, I don't see me ever doing this in a game, but hey, there's always a chance.

Only if Zandrekh is attached to the Flayed Ones who first DS near the Bloodswarmed enemy unit.

PROTIP: don't do that.

Hold up,
So you attach Oby to the Flayed Ones and start them on the board. You have Immotek and he infects a squad in the backfield with Bloodswarm Scarabs. You then declare Ghostwalk Mantle in your movement phase, Deep Strike Oby and the Flayed Ones within 6inches of that Bloodswarm unit, you don't scatter, right?
Also, if things are going poorly for Zahndrekh, you can deepstrike back with no scatter! Then latter, deepstrike back to the bloodswarm squad! That would be totally sweet if it wasn't TOTALLY TERRIBLE!!!

You can't assault out of Deepstrike and Obyron lacks an orb and an inv save so generally not great strategy unless you preemptively plan for this with Royal Court attachment's or maybe bring Zahndrekh along since you won't be using up a FoC slot and he brings an orb and 2+/3++ save. You'll be eating points up fast and not taking advantage of the Nightfight that Imotek brings to the table. IMO, the only advantage Bloodswarm brings is a cheap distraction for 65 points that may or may not have an effect on the game.

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

Hi guys. I'd appreciate some feedback on my 1750 point tournament list. I have two versions, both of which I've tested a bit:

Version 1
2x Destroyer Lord (2+, MSS)
2x 6 Warriors in Scythes
2x 10 Tesla Immortals
2x 6 Wraiths (2 Coils each)
3x Annihilation Barge
1746 points

Version 2
2x Destroyer Lord (2+, MSS)
2x 5 Tesla Immortals in Scythes
2x 5 Tesla Immortals
2x 6 Wraiths (3 Coils + 2 Coils)
1x 10 Scarabs
3x Annihilation Barge
1750 points

The second version is a bit light on troops, but the scarabs do add more threats and a better way of killing vehicles. I kinda prefer the first version, but I haven't actually had any problems with the MSU troops in the two games I've tested the second one (against chaos marines + IG and against dark eldar + eldar).

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

I have a question for you necron players.

Are they viable (elite) CC necron armies possible at a 1000-1250 range?

The reason i'm asking is bc my main army is orks, and I play a 'shooty horde' kind o list, which means LOTS of models to move, LOTS of models to fire & LOTS of models to charge each turn; making it very slow to play. This is kinda embarresing towards my opponents sometimes, I like the tactics of it but I wish I could sometimes play something quicker. Buying an elite ork list (with meganobs, 20$ a piece) is as expensive as buying a second army, so I was thinking of necrons.

I like those guys with the spears a lot, so was thinking about making a list around this. Should be way less models, but still a bit of comparable tactically. So those spearman, maybe a few of those fast attack crawlers with whips, and some anti tank (forgive me for not knowing names). Can that succeed?

^You could do a "mini-wraithwing", build the list around these guys. A dozen wraiths (two full units of 6), one or two destroyer lords as HQs and then just fill rest of the list with warriors and/or immortals, whichever you prefer. I think it could work. For anti tank you can just use warriors (they can glance anything) and also scarab swarms if you want more close combat.

The spearmen you mentioned are propably lychguard with warscythes, cool models but not that good due to being slow and expensive. You might add a unit if you want to go up in points from the 1000 point level.

Generally anything with "canoptek" in its name is a useful close combat unit, anything else not so much.

 Tomten wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's are also fearless. It is their lack of any inv. save and the only character that can attach to the squad effectively is the D. Lord (which has no Inv. Save) that limits the TP. RC members can't join TP, they can't start the game in a Night Scythe, and they are too expensive to be used effectively(10 cost you 400 base). For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

MLKTH wrote:
^You could do a "mini-wraithwing", build the list around these guys. A dozen wraiths (two full units of 6), one or two destroyer lords as HQs and then just fill rest of the list with warriors and/or immortals, whichever you prefer. I think it could work. For anti tank you can just use warriors (they can glance anything) and also scarab swarms if you want more close combat.

The spearmen you mentioned are propably lychguard with warscythes, cool models but not that good due to being slow and expensive. You might add a unit if you want to go up in points from the 1000 point level.

Generally anything with "canoptek" in its name is a useful close combat unit, anything else not so much.

Thanks for much. Warriors hit S8?
And what if I combine them (the lynchguard) with Vargard Obyron ? Can't that speed them up?

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's are also fearless. It is their lack of any inv. save and the only character that can attach to the squad effectively is the D. Lord (which has no Inv. Save) that limits the TP. RC members can't join TP, they can't start the game in a Night Scythe, and they are too expensive to be used effectively(10 cost you 400 base). For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

And one more toughness!

 Tomten wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's are also fearless. It is their lack of any inv. save and the only character that can attach to the squad effectively is the D. Lord (which has no Inv. Save) that limits the TP. RC members can't join TP, they can't start the game in a Night Scythe, and they are too expensive to be used effectively(10 cost you 400 base). For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

And one more toughness!

Well, as far as i can see TP ain't so good as retinue for Dlord, lack of inv save and only 1 W imo makes them too fragile for units that DLord can take out with same number of wrights in cc with ease. However if can be TP combined with Oby... ghostwalk-->Rod-em-up-->finish off whatever left in cc with Oby , they could be an excellent unit to hunt down enemy HQs (That is ofc if after ghostwalk, Oby and hes unit can shoot and charge...not sure about that, codex says that it using rules for deep strike, didnt say it actally IS deep strike ). And add to that FC from Nemy

You can't charge after using the veil, it works just like Deepstrike but you can do it every turn. The rub with any VoD is hope you don't mishap and with Rod range at 6". Good luck landing in an optimal position because you are going to have to aim for a spot that is primed for a mishap.

Aww You got point here, forgot that ghostwalk is only accurate when placing near Nemy unless....I gief Nemy CCB not sure tho if it worth to risk placing Nemy so close enemy line ....Im stuck in here

CCB couldn't be much worse than they are now so it is pretty much a suicide surf board and is going to put you at over 300pts(or close to it, can't remember Zahndrekh's cost at the moment) to attempt that trick. Really is it worth it?

It's worth it at least once! I had it pulled on me and wasn't a huge fan as a marine player. After the 1 time though its pretty easy to avoid it. Frankly it's probably better used out of a night scythe in my experience.

As a new necron player though its one of those tricks I can't wait to use on unsuspecting opponents! Although I'm still a ways away from having enough points to make it happen.

Right now i have a lord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals, a ghost ark, 3 wraiths, and an anni barge, and near unlimited supplies of scarabs. In your opinions where should I go next? I'm thinking another barge, 3 more wraiths, and then just start filling up on more troops/crypteks.

You're right on. You really want access to 3 A Barges. Not that you'll use them every game, but you want the option.

Tesla destructors and mind shackles are what drew me to necrons stylistically so anni barges and scythes really appeal. I recognize the need for more troops too. I will eventually own scythes but cronair isn't really my thing.

Chancetragedy wrote:


Right now i have a lord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals, a ghost ark, 3 wraiths, and an anni barge, and near unlimited supplies of scarabs. In your opinions where should I go next? I'm thinking another barge, 3 more wraiths, and then just start filling up on more troops/crypteks.

Throw in a Doomscythe/Nightscythe or two and a Destroyer Lord to go with your Wraiths and you will be well on your way

 Brymm wrote:
You're right on. You really want access to 3 A Barges. Not that you'll use them every game, but you want the option.

This is by far the best tactical advice you can give for any Necron player. Annihilation barges are efficient for their cost, and satisfy several battlefield roles. I've really tried to make Doom Scythes work but 2 annihilation barges for the cost of one Doom Scythe are far better in 9/10 situations.

So what are some of the more aggressive style necron stuff. Not necessarily hth as I feel like ill have that covered through wraiths, scarabs, and mostly avoiding combat. I notice a lot of stuff is 24" range l, but really what wants to be up close and personal blowing stuff away?

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's will get their cover save and RP against AP 1, 2, and 3, where as Wraiths will only get their 3++, and still die as most things that are AP 1, 2 and 3, are S8+.

If TPs have cover and a Res Orb (which they should) they are just as resilient/point against S8+ AP3- as Wraiths (assuming every other has a WC, so 40 pont average), if they are shrouded and or stealthed, they are more resilient then Wraiths. Against every other weapon profile in the game other then Plasma, the TPs come out ahead (for instance, it takes 18 Bolter hits to drop a TP and 12 Bolter hits to drop a Wraith.

For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

That's only because of the advantage TPs have in having the option to go to 10. Base for base they average out to the same price as the Wraiths. The Wraiths are a little more punchier, but overall the TPs are more survivable against the greater variety of bullets. Ultimately, if your running with a DLord, you take the survivabliity over the punchyness because the DLord punches plenty hard on his own. Running by themselves Wraiths over TPs, however as a DLord escort TPs win hands down.

Chancetragedy wrote:
So what are some of the more aggressive style necron stuff. Not necessarily hth as I feel like ill have that covered through wraiths, scarabs, and mostly avoiding combat. I notice a lot of stuff is 24" range l, but really what wants to be up close and personal blowing stuff away?

Not sure exactly what you mean here.
If you're talking anti-tank, nothing's more effective at "up close" blowing-things-up than a Storm-tek (you just need to attach him to a unit of 5 Warriors in a Nightscythe)
If you're talking anti-elite, the Death & Despair squad is your best bet (also better with Nightscythe)
Anti-mob? Trazyn and Tesla.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That's only because of the advantage TPs have in having the option to go to 10. Base for base they average out to the same price as the Wraiths. The Wraiths are a little more punchier, but overall the TPs are more survivable against the greater variety of bullets. Ultimately, if your running with a DLord, you take the survivabliity over the punchyness because the DLord punches plenty hard on his own. Running by themselves Wraiths over TPs, however as a DLord escort TPs win hands down.

Except for cost. And Wraiths cost 160pts less than 10 TP. That is the deciding factor and any decent opponent is also generally aware of how to get around RP and it isn't that difficult for allot of armies to put down 10 Necrons even T5 Necrons.

Except for cost. And Wraiths cost 160pts less than 10 TP. That is the deciding factor and any decent opponent is also generally aware of how to get around RP and it isn't that difficult for allot of armies to put down 10 Necrons even T5 Necrons.

Who says you have to bring 10? You could bring 6 TPs, or 8, or 5... How exactly is an option the deciding factor?

Fair point on getting around RP, but wit a DLord in the group, plus some Night Fighting to shoot through, its easier said then done. More often then not you'll get your rolls.

Not if your guys are down. Cover saves are not as good in 6th edition. TP are close up fighters, particularly if you go with the Rod versions, and there is exactly zero ways of giving the squad any sort of Inv save that can save TP, not to mention the fact that tons of armies are now running ridiculous amounts of weapons that ignore cover. The less TP models you put out the easier you are making it for your opponent to knock down all the TP and preventing RP. And regardless of if the D. Lord is standing, if all the TP are down they can't resurrect. Dark Eldar in particular with their Poison attacks and the amount they can dump on a squad are going to make quick work of TP.

You also forget about the Wraith's ability to ignore difficult terrain - it allows you to go anywhere anytime.

Wraiths are superior to TP due to mobilty, invul save and whip coils. People also tend to forget about the terrible I2 the TP bring. Wraiths also perform really well against non-cc termis while TP have 0 chance.

 skoffs wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
So what are some of the more aggressive style necron stuff. Not necessarily hth as I feel like ill have that covered through wraiths, scarabs, and mostly avoiding combat. I notice a lot of stuff is 24" range l, but really what wants to be up close and personal blowing stuff away?

Not sure exactly what you mean here.
If you're talking anti-tank, nothing's more effective at "up close" blowing-things-up than a Storm-tek (you just need to attach him to a unit of 5 Warriors in a Nightscythe)
If you're talking anti-elite, the Death & Despair squad is your best bet (also better with Nightscythe)
Anti-mob? Trazyn and Tesla.

What I mean is, I play space marines(salamanders) and I use a lot of stuff that wants to get up close and personal in firefights. So for my sallies I use a sternguard squad and a command squad and such. I was wondering what necron units want to be in that close range that do real good damage. Like tesla immortals seem to want to be up close, crypteks seem like a good idea with some of their stuff. Things like that. Ill tie up heavy CC monsters with scarabs and take the rest out with high volume of shots?

I understand I'm gonna have to be careful about CC with no ATSKNF and I2 and whatnot. But a lot of necron stuff seems like its less than 24" range so what stuff is more Killy?

 skoffs wrote:
If you're talking anti-tank, nothing's more effective at "up close" blowing-things-up than a Storm-tek (you just need to attach him to a unit of 5 Warriors in a Nightscythe)

I agree with the idea but feel the need for some follow through. IMO it is much better to make it a full squad of Gauss Immortals in the Night Scythe. With 5 Warriors it is just a suicide move. That might be OK for Death and Despair but I don't want to waste a scoring unit when I can beef it up and make it survivable.

...
I just gave you three examples of extremely killy close range Necron unit builds.
you even quoted them.

and no, Tesla Immortals don't usually want to be too close.
GAUSS wants to be close (so it can rapid fire)

 Sigvatr wrote:
You also forget about the Wraith's ability to ignore difficult terrain - it allows you to go anywhere anytime.

Wraiths are superior to TP due to mobilty, invul save and whip coils. People also tend to forget about the terrible I2 the TP bring. Wraiths also perform really well against non-cc termis while TP have 0 chance.

Aren't TP I1, thanks to unwieldy.
Like Lychguards, TP are way over coasted for W1 I2 +3 no invu save. I find both weapon load outs to be pretty bad, the Rod of Covenant is clearly the best but it has a habit of killing too many models in the unit you wish to charge, leaving you out in the open. Plus its 6'' range makes it very unreliable shooting unit.

As a newer player I might be missing out on some of the alternate tactics with the TP and Lichguard and despite me wanting to field them based on lore and looks I just can't see what role they would fill better than the Wraiths.

Boons - They reanimate, larger squad, 1 toughness higher than Wraiths

Banes - Both have less attacks, less wounds, 1 less strength

Conclusion - It would seem that LG/TP offer a variable toughness in conjunction with a ResOrb whereas the Wraiths offer a heavier offensive option without any chance of returning.

I suppose I would consider using them as "blocker" or "screen" for other units whereas Wraiths I would always use as a "seek and destroy" unit. The ability for the Wraiths to potentially get a higher initiative with their Whip Coils is really what sets them apart for me.

All this talk about Lychguards, and no one has mentioned their weapons. Necron warscythes will win nearly any argument, hands down. Fighting infantry? The enemy doesn't get armor saves. Assaulting a vehicle? Armourbane. 5 Lychguards and an Overlord will make even a Baneblade look like a shredded tin can after a round or two.

Their biggest drawbacks are their (lack of) speed, and relatively high points cost. I'd rate them as my second favorite CC unit, after the wraith/DLord combo.

 skoffs wrote:
...
I just gave you three examples of extremely killy close range Necron unit builds.
you even quoted them.

and no, Tesla Immortals don't usually want to be too close.
GAUSS wants to be close (so it can rapid fire)

Tesla Immortals aren't half bad in close range. Assault 1 and the tesla rule are good both the defensive and offensive end.

 sounddemon wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
...
I just gave you three examples of extremely killy close range Necron unit builds.
you even quoted them.

and no, Tesla Immortals don't usually want to be too close.
GAUSS wants to be close (so it can rapid fire)

Tesla Immortals aren't half bad in close range. Assault 1 and the tesla rule are good both the defensive and offensive end.

They may not be half bad but they aren't half good either on their own in CC. It is a far more practical strategy to keep them at range and take advantage of their tesla and if you do get assaulted Tesla will double hits on the 6's you need for overwatch.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Not if your guys are down. Cover saves are not as good in 6th edition. TP are close up fighters, particularly if you go with the Rod versions, and there is exactly zero ways of giving the squad any sort of Inv save that can save TP, not to mention the fact that tons of armies are now running ridiculous amounts of weapons that ignore cover. The less TP models you put out the easier you are making it for your opponent to knock down all the TP and preventing RP. And regardless of if the D. Lord is standing, if all the TP are down they can't resurrect. Dark Eldar in particular with their Poison attacks and the amount they can dump on a squad are going to make quick work of TP.

Not really, and Dark Eldar poison is the only primary weapon in the game where the Wraiths are superior. That's like saying "Why bring Wraiths, bolters will jus make short work of them."

You also forget about the Wraith's ability to ignore difficult terrain - it allows you to go anywhere anytime.

Wraiths are superior to TP due to mobilty, invul save and whip coils. People also tend to forget about the terrible I2 the TP bring. Wraiths also perform really well against non-cc termis while TP have 0 chance.

Yes, and TPs are superior to Wraiths because they are more resilient. Wraiths have I2 as well (and the WCs don't last forever) and I'm not sure I've seen a less accurate statement then your last one. Rod of Covenant TPs are designed to take out Terms.

Aren't TP I1, thanks to unwieldy.
Like Lychguards, TP are way over coasted for W1 I2 +3 no invu save. I find both weapon load outs to be pretty bad, the Rod of Covenant is clearly the best but it has a habit of killing too many models in the unit you wish to charge, leaving you out in the open. Plus its 6'' range makes it very unreliable shooting unit.

Yes, with RoC they are I1 or with VB/PC they are I2. RP replaces the Invulnerable save for all intents in purposes, superior to it against shooting while not as good against AP 3 or better weapons in assault.

It's very difficult to shoot yourself out of assault range with the TPs with 6" weapon.

Anyway, as I said before, they are the superior DLord escort, although alone I would still take Wraiths. Somewhat surprised more people haven't figured that out yet.

Interesting
do you use Praetorians offensively, like one would use Wraiths?
I'd be interested to see the math hammer on this (against TEQ, MEQ, etc.)

 skoffs wrote:
Interesting
do you use Praetorians offensively, like one would use Wraiths?
I'd be interested to see the math hammer on this (against TEQ, MEQ, etc.)

I use a rather large group (8 to 10) with VB/PC and generally run a group of 6 Wraiths (3 Whips) in front of them, and yeah, I use them pretty offensively. Because I have the daggers on the TPs they tend to go more for the Vehicles, trying to pull off multi-assaults when presented, and the Wraiths finish off the squishy bits. Of course, I'll combine assault things like Trygons to add the Whip Coils to the entropic Void Blades and make quick work of them.

I think a Rod group works a bit differently. I think you can get away with a smaller group (5 or 6) with the DLord and use them more as counter assault. At least that's how I would use them, however I've been using them with Pistol/Dagger so long its a much different mind set.

One thing I'll add is people tend to underestimate how potent those Particle Casters are once you have 8 or more of them, it's like having Jump Infantry hopping around with a couple short range Scatter Lasers.

Budikah wrote:
As a newer player I might be missing out on some of the alternate tactics with the TP and Lichguard and despite me wanting to field them based on lore and looks I just can't see what role they would fill better than the Wraiths.

Boons - They reanimate, larger squad, 1 toughness higher than Wraiths

Banes - Both have less attacks, less wounds, 1 less strength

Conclusion - It would seem that LG/TP offer a variable toughness in conjunction with a ResOrb whereas the Wraiths offer a heavier offensive option without any chance of returning.

I suppose I would consider using them as "blocker" or "screen" for other units whereas Wraiths I would always use as a "seek and destroy" unit. The ability for the Wraiths to potentially get a higher initiative with their Whip Coils is really what sets them apart for me.

Doesnt TPs have weapons that give them 1+ strengt?

 Tomten wrote:

Budikah wrote:
As a newer player I might be missing out on some of the alternate tactics with the TP and Lichguard and despite me wanting to field them based on lore and looks I just can't see what role they would fill better than the Wraiths.

Boons - They reanimate, larger squad, 1 toughness higher than Wraiths

Banes - Both have less attacks, less wounds, 1 less strength

Conclusion - It would seem that LG/TP offer a variable toughness in conjunction with a ResOrb whereas the Wraiths offer a heavier offensive option without any chance of returning.

I suppose I would consider using them as "blocker" or "screen" for other units whereas Wraiths I would always use as a "seek and destroy" unit. The ability for the Wraiths to potentially get a higher initiative with their Whip Coils is really what sets them apart for me.

Doesnt TPs have weapons that give them 1+ strengt?

Yes. +1 STR, AP2, Unwieldy

That Rod of Covenant is so much worse than a Warscythe it is crazy. I would consider the TP a viable unit if they could get WSs instead, but since they can't, I don't see them being as useful as Wraiths. But since they don't compete for spots, I really don't see the point of compairing and contrasting them. The HQ and Heavy are the only two spots where you end up being like "I wish I could take more - ," and in the case of TP and Wraiths, it comes to points being the limiting factor, not force org.
So if you're looking for a battlefield role to be filled by Wraiths or TPs and points is the limiting factor, you just need to figure out which unit is better for its points. I think the majority consensus is that Wraiths are a top-teir unit while Praetorians are a bottom-mid-teir one.
Another way to look at it is, can you think of a scenario where you would want 240 points of Praetorians over 240 points of Wraiths?... I can't, I just can't.

 Brymm wrote:
That Rod of Covenant is so much worse than a Warscythe it is crazy. I would consider the TP a viable unit if they could get WSs instead, but since they can't, I don't see them being as useful as Wraiths. But since they don't compete for spots, I really don't see the point of compairing and contrasting them. The HQ and Heavy are the only two spots where you end up being like "I wish I could take more - ," and in the case of TP and Wraiths, it comes to points being the limiting factor, not force org.
So if you're looking for a battlefield role to be filled by Wraiths or TPs and points is the limiting factor, you just need to figure out which unit is better for its points. I think the majority consensus is that Wraiths are a top-teir unit while Praetorians are a bottom-mid-teir one.
Another way to look at it is, can you think of a scenario where you would want 240 points of Praetorians over 240 points of Wraiths?... I can't, I just can't.

MAYBE vs a Dark Angels Deathwing list chop full of Powerfirst Terminators, but too be fair even looking at the DA previews that seems like an unpopular build. Praetorians excel at countering 2+ save models, particularly with low I (such as unwieldly models with power fists), but that is really the only case that I can think of.

Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

I completely agree with this smart person. Triarch Praets to me, are in most situations a lesser wraith. There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

That said, I think caster/void blade Praets can be a cheaper (in real world cost) version of wraiths. I box of 5 praets is is a lot cheaper than 2x3 boxes of Canoptek Wraiths.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

The Rod TPs are wounding the Terms on 2's as well. The Terms will get a 5++, but the TPs will get their 5+ (or 4+) RP roll. The TPs will also unload a volley of S5 AP2 shots into the terms before assaulting, and if they played it right will get Hammer of Wrath hits to boot. To suggest that Rod of Covenant Triarch's can't take on Terms is remarkably inaccurate.

Even though I would never run TPs without a DLord, just for illustrative purposes:
5 Rod Shots:
5(2÷3)(2÷3)(2÷3) = 1.5
10 Rod CC attacks
10(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3)=2.77

Lets say the Terms get a bit lucky and only lose one dude to the Shots:
8 Term Attacks:
8(1÷2)(5÷6)=3.33

So 1 Term dies to shooting, they tie combat 3 to 3, then one TP stands back up.

Now its 3 versus 1, and pretty good odds the TPs pull it out.

I gave the charge to the TPs, but that should be a near certainty. Also, didn't give them Hammer of Wrath, Preffered Enemy, or Res Orb, all of which they would get in a real game situation either from the DLord or good tactics (ie Hammer of Wrath).

The overcosted argument is just silly. Wraiths are one of the best buys in the game. TPs are more resilient yet less punchy Wraiths, and average the same cost. How one can be considered such a good buy while the latter is considered "overcosted" is beyond me.

There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Las Cannons, Railguns, lasguns, scatter lasers, flamers, heavy flamers, all gauss weapons, most tesla weapons, virtually every shooting weapon Orcs, Nids and both forms of Space Elves have? Because the Triarchs are either always better or generally better versus everysingle one of these weapons compared to Wraiths. Really the only clear winner for Wraiths is Plasma. That's it. One weapon profile in the entire game. People way over value the 2 wounds and 3++ and undervalue the 5T and RP.

*whynotboth.jpg*

Just imagine if Lychguard could take scythes and shields....*drool*. Oh well, still tempted to do that conversion since I'm not using my sword and board models much anymore (and it would look fantastic). Anyone been consistently using Lychguard in the armies?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

The Rod TPs are wounding the Terms on 2's as well. The Terms will get a 5++, but the TPs will get their 5+ (or 4+) RP roll. The TPs will also unload a volley of S5 AP2 shots into the terms before assaulting, and if they played it right will get Hammer of Wrath hits to boot. To suggest that Rod of Covenant Triarch's can't take on Terms is remarkably inaccurate.

Even though I would never run TPs without a DLord, just for illustrative purposes:
5 Rod Shots:
5(2÷3)(2÷3)(2÷3) = 1.5
10 Rod CC attacks
10(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3)=2.77

Lets say the Terms get a bit lucky and only lose one dude to the Shots:
8 Term Attacks:
8(1÷2)(5÷6)=3.33

So 1 Term dies to shooting, they tie combat 3 to 3, then one TP stands back up.

Now its 3 versus 1, and pretty good odds the TPs pull it out.

I gave the charge to the TPs, but that should be a near certainty. Also, didn't give them Hammer of Wrath, Preffered Enemy, or Res Orb, all of which they would get in a real game situation either from the DLord or good tactics (ie Hammer of Wrath).

The overcosted argument is just silly. Wraiths are one of the best buys in the game. TPs are more resilient yet less punchy Wraiths, and average the same cost. How one can be considered such a good buy while the latter is considered "overcosted" is beyond me.

There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Las Cannons, Railguns, lasguns, scatter lasers, flamers, heavy flamers, all gauss weapons, most tesla weapons, virtually every shooting weapon Orcs, Nids and both forms of Space Elves have? Because the Triarchs are either always better or generally better versus everysingle one of these weapons compared to Wraiths. Really the only clear winner for Wraiths is Plasma. That's it. One weapon profile in the entire game. People way over value the 2 wounds and 3++ and undervalue the 5T and RP.

you are still assuming that your opponent has let your 5 TP walk up to your Terminators without hitting them with a turn of fire, which they will do and that the terminators haven't themselves unloaded shots on the TP, or over watched against them. Props to you if this works at your local meta, I have allot better players that I play against here, including a Throne of Skulls champion, they bring enough fir power and ap3 weapons that 5 TP with or without a D. Lord would be dead in a turn of fire, and anything that could be used to save them would just slow them down. And give the opponent a second round of shooting and/or the charge against them.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Terminators with I1 powerfists will still crush TP. Even if they are going at the same time, a Terminator is still wounding on 2's with no chance of a save for the TP and they are base 2 attacks versus the TP which are base 1 attack and if you opt for the extra attack with pistols and HPS, you lose your auto AP2 attack, anything not rending will be giving the Terminators their 2+save. The TP really don't excel at fighting anything worth their point cost and don't do anything that Wraiths, Scarabs or RC bolstered Lychguard cant to better. I want to love the unit but it is just far to overcosted. In a 1999pt game they could be used effectively if screened by Wraiths but that is only if you've already spent the more cost effective points on Wraiths and want more Jump Infantry CC units.

The Rod TPs are wounding the Terms on 2's as well. The Terms will get a 5++, but the TPs will get their 5+ (or 4+) RP roll. The TPs will also unload a volley of S5 AP2 shots into the terms before assaulting, and if they played it right will get Hammer of Wrath hits to boot. To suggest that Rod of Covenant Triarch's can't take on Terms is remarkably inaccurate.

Even though I would never run TPs without a DLord, just for illustrative purposes:
5 Rod Shots:
5(2÷3)(2÷3)(2÷3) = 1.5
10 Rod CC attacks
10(1÷2)(5÷6)(2÷3)=2.77

Lets say the Terms get a bit lucky and only lose one dude to the Shots:
8 Term Attacks:
8(1÷2)(5÷6)=3.33

So 1 Term dies to shooting, they tie combat 3 to 3, then one TP stands back up.

Now its 3 versus 1, and pretty good odds the TPs pull it out.

I gave the charge to the TPs, but that should be a near certainty. Also, didn't give them Hammer of Wrath, Preffered Enemy, or Res Orb, all of which they would get in a real game situation either from the DLord or good tactics (ie Hammer of Wrath).

The overcosted argument is just silly. Wraiths are one of the best buys in the game. TPs are more resilient yet less punchy Wraiths, and average the same cost. How one can be considered such a good buy while the latter is considered "overcosted" is beyond me.

There are some situations where they are better than wraiths (ie if your opponent has an insane number of missile launchers), but this is the exception rather than the rule.

How about Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Las Cannons, Railguns, lasguns, scatter lasers, flamers, heavy flamers, all gauss weapons, most tesla weapons, virtually every shooting weapon Orcs, Nids and both forms of Space Elves have? Because the Triarchs are either always better or generally better versus everysingle one of these weapons compared to Wraiths. Really the only clear winner for Wraiths is Plasma. That's it. One weapon profile in the entire game. People way over value the 2 wounds and 3++ and undervalue the 5T and RP.

you are still assuming that your opponent has let your 5 TP walk up to your Terminators without hitting them with a turn of fire, which they will do and that the terminators haven't themselves unloaded shots on the TP, or over watched against them. Props to you if this works at your local meta, I have allot better players that I play against here, including a Throne of Skulls champion, they bring enough fir power and ap3 weapons that 5 TP with or without a D. Lord would be dead in a turn of fire, and anything that could be used to save them would just slow them down. And give the opponent a second round of shooting and/or the charge against them.

Out of curiosity, I ran those numbers with a unit of 5 basic Wraiths (no D-lord, no coils)

(Also Note: I had to look for 10 minutes to dig up my TI-83 calculator that I have not touched in the 5 years since my college astronomy class)

Assuming the wraiths get the charge and 4 attacks each

Wraith Attacks
20(1/2)(4/6) = 6.67 normal wounds
20(1/2)(1/6) = 1.67 rending wounds
6.67(5/6) = 5.55 saves against normal wounds
1.67(4/6) = 1.12 saves against rending wounds (assuming SS equipped)
6.67-5.55 = 1.12 normal unsaved wounds
1.67-1.12 = .55 unsaved rending wounds
1.12 + .55 = 1.67 total unsaved wounds, meaning 1-2 dead Terminators

Terminator Attacks (assuming 3 Terminators survived)
6(1/2)(5/6) = 2.5 wounds
2.5(2/3) = 1.67 saves
2.5-1.67 = .83 unsaved wounds, instantly killing 0-1 Wraith.

Wraith's lose combat by 1, but are fearless so the party keeps going.


Out of further curiosity (and because I already have the darn calculator out) How do TPs and Wraiths stack up against a basic tac-squad (9 plain-jane Ultramarines with a sarge w/ BP/CS)

TP
5 Rod shots
5(2/3)(2/3) = 2.22 wounds, 2-3 dead Marines

Assault - Marines (assuming 2 dead Marines)
7(1/2)(1/3) = 1.17 wounds
1.17(2/3) = .78 unsaved wound, 0-1 dead TP

Assault - TP (assuming 1 dead TP)
8(1/2)(5/6) = 3.34 wounds, meaning 3.34 unsaved wounds, further meaning 3-4 dead Marines

Wraiths (w/ rending)

Assault - Marines
11(1/2)(1/2) = 2.75 wounds
2.75 (2/3) = 1.84 saves
2.75-1.84 = .91 unsaved wounds, meaning 1 half-dead Wraith

Assault - Wraiths
20(1/2)(4/6) = 6.67 normal wounds
20(1/2)(1/6) = 1.67 rending wounds
6.67(2/3) = 4.45 saves against normal wounds
6.67-4.45 = 2.22 unsaved normal wounds
2.22 unsaved normal wounds + 1.67 rending wounds = 3.89 total unsaved wounds, meaning 3-4 dead Marines

TP w/ shooting and assault are getting 3-5 dead Terminators, in return for 3-4 downed TP, while Wraiths are getting 1-2 in return for 0-1 totally dead Wraith
TP w/ shooting and assault are getting 5-7 dead Tac Marines in return for 0-1 downed TP, while Wraiths are getting 3-4 in return for 1 half-dead Wraith.


(If anything is wrong with the numbers, just go ahead and fix it. Mathhammer makes my head hurt)

TL;DR- They'll both mop the floor against MEQ, and will run about even blow-for-blow against TEQ.

I think you made your first squad of Wraiths fight against TH/SS terminators instead of Tactical ones (saving 4/6 of the rends means storm shield, no?). The first set of math for the TP in the previous post had them fighting against tactical terminators.

I am a big fan of mathhammer yet it fails to give an appropriate idea of how a unit would perform.

a) You assume a direct confrontation. Not going to happen in a real game. If your TP walk up to the enemy, the squad will be annihilated or reduced to being useless by the time it makes to the enemy. Wraiths are far superior to TP in that regard as they always get their 3++ compared to the TP's 3+

Yes, you can give them a transport. That's at least 100 points more for your unit....and there goes the point-effectiveness!

b) Having 2 wounds is a big advantage due to would allocation. TP suffer a wound, the model is killed, you lose out on all remaining attacks. Wraiths suffer a wound, they can still fight back.

c) Whip coils. Wraiths suddenly strike first.

d) Wraiths / TPs are a cc unit. Let's compare it to a cc unit then....terminators with storm shields. Suddenly, they got a 3++ while TP get no save at all vs. the enemy's attacks. Do the math now.

 Brymm wrote:
I think you made your first squad of Wraiths fight against TH/SS terminators instead of Tactical ones (saving 4/6 of the rends means storm shield, no?). The first set of math for the TP in the previous post had them fighting against tactical terminators.

Yes, I included storm shields. I'm pretty sure the first TP calculations by ShagarLogath included a 2/3 save against the ap 2 rods due to storm shields.

I'm personally firmly set in the Wraith camp. Whip coils, 3 attacks base, and the best invul save in the entire Necron army (apart from OL wargear) is just too all around good. TPs are certainly good, but only in situations where their ap 2 is the most important thing they bring, ie against terminators/marines. Wraiths simply have the volume of attacks to handle both "Hard and few" and "Soft and many" type targets.

I simply ran the math because I was curious as to what it would hold. I usually abhor mathhammer (Thus why I haven't touched a calculator in 5 years), but I was curious to see how the Wraiths stacked up in a purely numerical sense.

Praetorians are good, and they definitely got better in 6th when combined with a DL, but I find that Wraiths are more useful across a broader spectrum of situations.

Isn't everything better with a D-Lord?

 Brymm wrote:
Isn't everything better with a D-Lord?

FO are still utter trash

...but yes, unless you already got TL shots, PE does make everything bettter

I must agree with G. Whitenbeard TP may handle pretty well in cc but still, Wraiths are much more adaptive to ANY situations on battlefield.
But to change abit of subject , I need to ask of Your advice....
Tomorrow my Crons will meet Plaugemarines + Demons and i got 2 ideas how to show them real hell from crons heavy support

1- 2x DA supported by TS
2- 2x AB and DS Monolith

Which in Yours opinion would be more.... hurtfull

And about TS, can I use Targeting Relay to twin linked weapons?

 Sigvatr wrote:
I am a big fan of mathhammer yet it fails to give an appropriate idea of how a unit would perform.

a) You assume a direct confrontation. Not going to happen in a real game. If your TP walk up to the enemy, the squad will be annihilated or reduced to being useless by the time it makes to the enemy. Wraiths are far superior to TP in that regard as they always get their 3++ compared to the TP's 3+

Yes, you can give them a transport. That's at least 100 points more for your unit....and there goes the point-effectiveness!

b) Having 2 wounds is a big advantage due to would allocation. TP suffer a wound, the model is killed, you lose out on all remaining attacks. Wraiths suffer a wound, they can still fight back.

c) Whip coils. Wraiths suddenly strike first.

d) Wraiths / TPs are a cc unit. Let's compare it to a cc unit then....terminators with storm shields. Suddenly, they got a 3++ while TP get no save at all vs. the enemy's attacks. Do the math now.

Mathhammer

Bolter vs Wraith
.667 hit - .335 wound - .111 failed save - .056 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Bolter Shot vs TP
.667 hit - .220 wound - .073 failed save - .049 failed RP(.037 w/ Orb)

Plasma vs Wraith
.667hit - .556 wound - .185 failed save - .093 Wraiths have 2 wounds

Plasma vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wound - .556 no save - .371 failed RP(.278 w/ Orb)

Krak, Melta, Lascannon vs Wraith
.667 hit - .556 wound - .185 failed save - .185 Instant Death

Krak, Melta, Lascannon vs TP
.667 hit - .556 wound - .556 no save - .371 failed RP(.278 w/ Orb)

Final Result...

Wraiths for the WIN!