No, that's you. You want a special privilege you can keep from everyone else, while everyone else is saying "that's cool, can I be a part of that, too?"
No, that's you. You want a special privilege you can keep from everyone else, while everyone else is saying "that's cool, can I be a part of that, too?"
Believe it or not, you absolutely can play 40k. I can also dress up like a woman and play with dollies.
No, that's you. You want a special privilege you can keep from everyone else, while everyone else is saying "that's cool, can I be a part of that, too?"
Believe it or not, you absolutely can play 40k. I can also dress up like a woman and play with dollies.
go ahead, I just want some official lady imperial fighter miniatures who aren't super sexy. too much to ask for?
No, that's you. You want a special privilege you can keep from everyone else, while everyone else is saying "that's cool, can I be a part of that, too?"
Believe it or not, you absolutely can play 40k. I can also dress up like a woman and play with dollies.
go ahead, I just want some official lady imperial fighter miniatures who aren't super sexy. too much to ask for?
Its the fault of GW and even FFG. In-universe, the Imperium ain't sexist. It doesn't care.
No, that's you. You want a special privilege you can keep from everyone else, while everyone else is saying "that's cool, can I be a part of that, too?"
Believe it or not, you absolutely can play 40k. I can also dress up like a woman and play with dollies.
go ahead, I just want some official lady imperial fighter miniatures who aren't super sexy. too much to ask for?
Its the fault of GW and even FFG. In-universe, the Imperium ain't sexist. It doesn't care.
No, that's you. You want a special privilege you can keep from everyone else, while everyone else is saying "that's cool, can I be a part of that, too?"
Believe it or not, you absolutely can play 40k. I can also dress up like a woman and play with dollies.
go ahead, I just want some official lady imperial fighter miniatures who aren't super sexy. too much to ask for?
Its the fault of GW and even FFG. In-universe, the Imperium ain't sexist. It doesn't care.
The Commissar in the uniform with the power-fist isn't really that bad. Considering the real-world basis for the Commissariat, on top of the sci-fi-Gothic vibe of 40K in general, the corset-top is not really that out of place.
The heels on her boots? Maybe... but maybe she's the Commissar to an artillery regiment, and spends most of her time riding around on a truck or walking around in a camp. She's not necessarily an infantry soldier.
No problem with the corset, but the heels are what made me grimace too as I saw that pic.
It's not even heels per se - in real life, there actually was a time when even military men or male pirates etc sported rather pronounced heels. But here they're just way too thin, modern-day-style.
That being said, I'm fairly sure that character 's supposed to be /tg/s Commissar Raege, anyways. FFG40k books are full of 4chan memes these days.
Psienesis wrote:The Commissar in the uniform with the power-fist isn't really that bad. Considering the real-world basis for the Commissariat, on top of the sci-fi-Gothic vibe of 40K in general, the corset-top is not really that out of place.
The heels on her boots? Maybe... but maybe she's the Commissar to an artillery regiment, and spends most of her time riding around on a truck or walking around in a camp. She's not necessarily an infantry soldier.
It irritates me because of the below:
No cleavage and no probably no heels.
Amaya wrote:Nope. Heels are impractical in any military scenario. Cleavage can be forgiven somewhat. Men have fought bare chested. It's still dumb though.
Agreed.
Lynata wrote:No problem with the corset, but the heels are what made me grimace too as I saw that pic.
It's not even heels per se - in real life, there actually was a time when even military men or male pirates etc sported rather pronounced heels. But here they're just way too thin, modern-day-style.
That being said, I'm fairly sure that character 's supposed to be /tg/s Commissar Raege, anyways. FFG40k books are full of 4chan memes these days.
Nope. Its
Playing Zara Harper
Zara holds the stern demeanour typical of a Commissar,
however she is deceptively charming and charismatic.
She can command, motivate, and persuade even the most
stubborn Guardsmen without ever even reaching for her
bolt pistol. The Guardsmen she serves alongside treat her as
one of their own, gladly obeying every command.
Psienesis wrote:The Commissar in the uniform with the power-fist isn't really that bad. Considering the real-world basis for the Commissariat, on top of the sci-fi-Gothic vibe of 40K in general, the corset-top is not really that out of place.
The heels on her boots? Maybe... but maybe she's the Commissar to an artillery regiment, and spends most of her time riding around on a truck or walking around in a camp. She's not necessarily an infantry soldier.
It irritates me because of the below:
No cleavage and no probably no heels.
Amaya wrote:Nope. Heels are impractical in any military scenario. Cleavage can be forgiven somewhat. Men have fought bare chested. It's still dumb though.
Agreed.
Lynata wrote:No problem with the corset, but the heels are what made me grimace too as I saw that pic.
It's not even heels per se - in real life, there actually was a time when even military men or male pirates etc sported rather pronounced heels. But here they're just way too thin, modern-day-style.
That being said, I'm fairly sure that character 's supposed to be /tg/s Commissar Raege, anyways. FFG40k books are full of 4chan memes these days.
Nope. Its
Playing Zara Harper
Zara holds the stern demeanour typical of a Commissar,
however she is deceptively charming and charismatic.
She can command, motivate, and persuade even the most
stubborn Guardsmen without ever even reaching for her
bolt pistol. The Guardsmen she serves alongside treat her as
one of their own, gladly obeying every command.
She's a commissar for a Catachan regiment.
Heels like this are fine but yes, unless she leads from a orbiting capital ship then those other ones are too much.
There's a reason any commissar wouldn't execute Catachans - they have the same rep as the Canadians in WWII - that they shoot their own officers over harsh discipline.
That's most likely the reason she's so respected - by having as many balls as those under her command. (and no doubt deserving a decent model)
Well, yeah ... duh. Of course they'd not make it that obvious.
Maybe I'm also starting to see memes where none exist, but ever since Love Can Bloom popped up in a DH supplement I've started to keep my eyes open. I'm also convinced the girl on the Black Crusade cover is supposed to be Cultist-chan - the "Chaos wheel" on her back is a fairly unique accessory.
Psienesis wrote:I thought the Catachans killed any Commissar sent to them?
Oh come on, it's only 1 out of 6 Commissars, statistically.
It also bears noting that, at least when I was still in the service, the dress uniform for female soldiers included a skirt and heels. If Commissars are expected to always be in "Class A" uniform, this could simply be a mandate from the Commissariat.
Also, again, sci-fi-Gothic.
And... true... 1 in 6. The other 5 were "killed in action" by "sudden ambush by Ork Kommandos" when no previous Ork presence had been detected, or "stumbled into a Catachan Devil Nest (while on planet designate: Thracia)" or "drank water he was advised he shouldn't", right?
The heels on the female Commissar are silly, yes, but I also don't think it's fair to get fixated on them and then forget the rest of the book. The Only War book mostly treats the sexes equally and one flawed piece of artwork (even that picture isn't beyond hope, at least she looks quite aggressive rather than pouty and knock-kneed) shouldn't invalidate the many excellent portrayals of Guardswomen in there.
I am still waiting for someone to do a line of miniatures from my current fave TV show Spartacus. You get men and women, fully clothed through to..........soooo not. A kickstarter would be cool - although Hasslefree might do it anyway
At least one of my female friends digs Saxa - who is confident, sexy and also great with her knives. A recent comment was that her limited clothing gave her a distraction edge against males (not quite how she put but you get the idea). Not sure if in reality it makes any sense in combat but I am willing to go along with her and the idea in a fantasy world like 40k
Clothing is like armour, in many wars in history it was limited I would like to see a good mixture in the 40k range - ie more of what we have already and stuff we don't have:
so we have the scantly cald where it makes sense: Dark Eldar wyches, Daemonettes etc - add in specific Guard Regiments
Through to fully armoured women: Eldar Guardians and Sisters: Add in guardswomen and more Sisters, some female warriors for the other Eldar aspects - Farseers and Spirit Seers - Again there is already a female Spirit Seer in previous Eldar Codex- but no model :(
A mixture of the above - I would love to have a Amberely and Cain set - Amberely could be in her usual "imperial noblewoman" cover story but also in her Hv bolter/ powerfist equiped Artificer armour .
Valeria would be an interesting model to create - as there is no picture of her..................lots of options.
Psienesis wrote:It also bears noting that, at least when I was still in the service, the dress uniform for female soldiers included a skirt and heels. If Commissars are expected to always be in "Class A" uniform, this could simply be a mandate from the Commissariat.
Well, that thought has merit, but we shouldn't forget that we're still living in a culture that has a long history of having issues accepting women as soldiers, extending into the present day. The Imperium seems different, at least as far as the Schola Progenium is concerned.
Then again, the Femmissar mini produced by GW had heels (albeit a bit thicker) as well, so ...
Psienesis wrote:And... true... 1 in 6. The other 5 were "killed in action" by "sudden ambush by Ork Kommandos" when no previous Ork presence had been detected, or "stumbled into a Catachan Devil Nest (while on planet designate: Thracia)" or "drank water he was advised he shouldn't", right?
Actually that was just a reference to the 1d6 roll you have to take for Commissars in a Codex Catachans Deathworld army.
Oops, Sorry Sir: Deathworld Veterans resent strangers telling them what to do or threatening their friends, so Commissars have a very difficult time maintaining control. They also suffer a disproportionally high number of ‘accidents’ when serving with Deathworld troops. Roll a D6 for each Commissar before setting them up (roll for models in reserve when they deploy onto the table). On a roll of 1, the Commissar has met with an unfortunate accident and cannot be used.
I take it that's where the unsourced "Catachans kill every Commissar" on their Lexicanum article originates from.
Mr Morden wrote:Clothing is like armour, in many wars in history it was limited
In some cases it can easily explained by cultural habits. There's IG regiments where the men run around half-naked because, well, they're tribals.
Take WoW night elves for example. We all know why they look like they do, but in-universe it even makes sense considering their history and the fact that they much prefer shooting from ambushes atop trees to getting into close combat, hence bikini armour = sufficient.
Fezman wrote:The heels on the female Commissar are silly, yes, but I also don't think it's fair to get fixated on them and then forget the rest of the book. The Only War book mostly treats the sexes equally and one flawed piece of artwork (even that picture isn't beyond hope, at least she looks quite aggressive rather than pouty and knock-kneed) shouldn't invalidate the many excellent portrayals of Guardswomen in there.
I'm not really fixating. I was just pointing out that even FFG does stupid things when it comes to 40k females. But majority of the time women are portrayed excellently. GW on the other hand is just . Only War and all of the 40krpg's put death to the thought that the Imperium is sexist.
Lynata wrote:
Psienesis wrote:It also bears noting that, at least when I was still in the service, the dress uniform for female soldiers included a skirt and heels. If Commissars are expected to always be in "Class A" uniform, this could simply be a mandate from the Commissariat.
Well, that thought has merit, but we shouldn't forget that we're still living in a culture that has a long history of having issues accepting women as soldiers, extending into the present day. The Imperium seems different, at least as far as the Schola Progenium is concerned.
Not only the Schola Progenium. It applies to every instituation other than the SM's. The Imperium has no problem with women in high positions.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:GW on the other hand is just
I dunno, GW published some very cool Sisters fluff, including short stories such as this one - and put them on one level with the Space Marines, very much unlike they are portrayed by FFG.
Granted, I have a feeling that's more connected to making Marines more awesome rather than making Sisters less awesome, but still.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Not only the Schola Progenium. It applies to every instituation other than the SM's. The Imperium has no problem with women in high positions.
Yep. The Imperial Guard might be different, as it is largely influenced by the individual regiments' homeworlds - but the Commissariat recruits differently, tapping the same source of manpower that also trains future Battle Sisters. I just mentioned the Schola as it is easier to "prove", at least if we were to look at GW material.
Amaya wrote:Nope. Heels are impractical in any military scenario. Cleavage can be forgiven somewhat. Men have fought bare chested. It's still dumb though.
The Commissariat has non-combat commissars too: being halfway to an intelligence agency it has plenty of desk jobs and ceremonial officers.
Lynata wrote:Take WoW night elves for example. We all know why they look like they do
Because Warcraft is a shallow, two-bit ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy?
Lynata wrote:I dunno, GW published some very cool Sisters fluff, including short stories such as this one - and put them on one level with the Space Marines, very much unlike they are portrayed by FFG.
Granted, I have a feeling that's more connected to making Marines more awesome rather than making Sisters less awesome, but still.
I have no problem with this. Sisters don't have all the genetic tinkering SM's get. They overcome such via their faith, magic, training and numbers.
Also, IG do this:
Yep. The Imperial Guard might be different, as it is largely influenced by the individual regiments' homeworlds - but the Commissariat recruits differently, tapping the same source of manpower that also trains future Battle Sisters. I just mentioned the Schola as it is easier to "prove", at least if we were to look at GW material.
It can be proven using any of the materials. Its just you and your usual dance of going on and on about GW and how other sources are bad or not good? cause not made by GW directly.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Because Warcraft is a shallow, two-bit ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Commissariat has non-combat commissars too: being halfway to an intelligence agency it has plenty of desk jobs and ceremonial officers.
That sounds like some BL "extension"? The original description indeed only knows one type of Commissar - so much so that they train their cadets on the battlefield.
Not to mention that at least in the case of GW's miniature as well as FFG's character class, both are intended to portray battlefield Commissars, even if such a hypothetical noncom-commissar ("noncommissar"? ) would exist.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Because Warcraft is a shallow, two-bit ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy?
I was more referring to the "sex sells" fanservice.
Unfortunately, this aspect has gotten a lot stronger over the years. WC3 feral amazons > WoW girly cheerleaders who dropped their xenophobia and magophobia overnight
Corporal_Reznov wrote: It can be proven using any of the materials. Its just you and your usual dance of going on and on about GW and how other sources are bad or not good? cause not made by GW directly.
There's quite a lot of material that doesn't even touch the subject with a ten foot pole - which is what presumably led quite a number of dakkanauts in this thread to proclaim the Imperium as sexist as they got the impression from whatever they read.
As for GW material, I just regard it as a sort of common basis. You'll find more people agreeing on, say, a Codex than you will on a particular Black Library novel - which makes it less controversial and thus more useful for a discussion. (not to mention that it is at least possible that some novel also portrays a sexist Imperium)
"You'll find more people agreeing on, say, a Codex than you will on a particular Black Library novel "
Not always - opinion is pretty divided about the changes in the information in the recent Necron and Grey Knights Codex's and often gets a little inflamed.............
And, again, we're not arguing that the IoM, or the 40K universe, in its fluff, is sexist or misogynistic. In fact, I think we have fairly established that, by the fluff, it isn't.
The problem then comes down to real-world products available for portraying what we know to be the case from the fluff. As I said 20 pages ago, I *can* buy third-party miniatures to fill the table-top roles that my IG or =I= armies may have females taking, I simply can't really do it with a GW product.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Because Warcraft is a shallow, two-bit ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy?
I was more referring to the "sex sells" fanservice.
Unfortunately, this aspect has gotten a lot stronger over the years. WC3 feral amazons > WoW girly cheerleaders who dropped their xenophobia and magophobia overnight
So is the fact that nearly all of my WoW characters are females make me a sexist bastard?
Mr Morden wrote: I though almost all female characters in MMORPGs were played by men?
Another reason why I think those who say men won't buy "female" minis to play with have just got no idea.............
MMORPG: Mostly Men Online, Role-Playing Girls.
*nods*
... I kid, though. I know a lot of women, mostly stay-at-home moms with very young children, who are into MMOs as a past-time that they can walk away from when family needs demand.
Not to mention that at least in the case of GW's miniature as well as FFG's character class, both are intended to portray battlefield Commissars, even if such a hypothetical noncom-commissar ("noncommissar"? ) would exist.
Commissars jobs also include propaganda work IIRC. Propaganda is not carried out greatly on the battlefield.
t
Corporal_Reznov wrote: It can be proven using any of the materials. Its just you and your usual dance of going on and on about GW and how other sources are bad or not good? cause not made by GW directly.
There's quite a lot of material that doesn't even touch the subject with a ten foot pole - which is what presumably led quite a number of dakkanauts in this thread to proclaim the Imperium as sexist as they got the impression from whatever they read.
People say the Imperium is sexist cause the Imperium is fascist and xenophobic and blah, blah and blah and the universe is grimdark. Thus the Imperium is also sexist.
Also because of the near absence of female models.
As for GW material, I just regard it as a sort of common basis. You'll find more people agreeing on, say, a Codex than you will on a particular Black Library novel - which makes it less controversial and thus more useful for a discussion. (not to mention that it is at least possible that some novel also portrays a sexist Imperium)
Never seen or heard of a novel where the Imperium is sexist. Individual worlds or cultures or even people being sexist is possible but the Imperium itself is not.
At least that's how I see it.
False. Grey Knight codex. Codexes are for the most part just recycle of data being printed on new paper.
Mr Morden wrote:Not always - opinion is pretty divided about the changes in the information in the recent Necron and Grey Knights Codex's and often gets a little inflamed.............
True, but on average ... how many people can agree on novel X, and how many people can agree on Codex fluff? There are exceptions to this rule, but in general I think the Codex will be more popular simply because it's read more often compared to some random novel out of the hundreds of books that BL is selling.
Amaya wrote:So is the fact that nearly all of my WoW characters are females make me a sexist bastard?
Nah. Playing a different gender is just like playing a different profession or a different species. You won't be sexist unless you actually believe in a flawed, sexist portrayal of the respective gender.
As far as staring at naked or semi-naked bodies is concerned, if this is something to condemn people for, then I guess we're all sexist. On some level that's probably true, but that is a matter of biology, and not psychology like the stuff that really concerns society.
Funny observation: Lots of men like playing lesbian women. Lots of women like playing gay men. Live and let live.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Commissars jobs also include propaganda work IIRC.
Where did you read that?
Not saying it's wrong, just that GW portrays it differently. Unless we're talking intra-regimental propaganda, I guess.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Codexes are for the most part just recycle of data being printed on new paper.
Okay, that is your opinion and I'll respect it. I could just as well counter it with a Goto novel, though.
All in all, I think more people will agree on Codex fluff simply because more people will have read it. Isn't the novel audience much smaller, owing to that there is a much higher amount of novels, and that they are always completely new whereas a Codex may, as you pointed out yourself, repeat existing fluff again and again?
Mr Morden wrote:Not always - opinion is pretty divided about the changes in the information in the recent Necron and Grey Knights Codex's and often gets a little inflamed.............
True, but on average ... how many people can agree on novel X, and how many people can agree on Codex fluff? There are exceptions to this rule, but in general I think the Codex will be more popular simply because it's read more often compared to some random novel out of the hundreds of books that BL is selling.
IIRC, the Bl books particularly the HH series are listed on the New York times best seller or something? Also, all the fluff arguments about the HH era and so on that use novels.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Commissars jobs also include propaganda work IIRC.
Where did you read that?
Not saying it's wrong, just that GW portrays it differently. Unless we're talking intra-regimental propaganda, I guess.
From Only War:
They
stalk among the ranks of the soldiery and the officers alike,
conspicuous in their peaked hats and ornate coats. Through
webs of informants and the use of propaganda, they
control the hearts and minds of the Imperial
Guard, moulding both the rank-and-file
Guardsmen and their officers into model
soldiers, free of doubt or mercy for
their enemies. Their unique position
allows them unfettered access to any
member of the Imperial Guard or
any of its facilities, and they mete out
their brutal punishment without doubt,
secure in the knowledge that what they do is for the
ultimate betterment of the Imperium as a whole.
Also the book 15 hours.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Codexes are for the most part just recycle of data being printed on new paper.
lynata wrote:Okay, that is your opinion and I'll respect it. I could just as well counter it with a Goto novel, though.
So what about Goto? Is that supposed to be a threat?
All in all, I think more people will agree on Codex fluff simply because more people will have read it. Isn't the novel audience much smaller, owing to that there is a much higher amount of novels, and that they are always completely new whereas a Codex may, as you pointed out yourself, repeat existing fluff again and again?
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Because Warcraft is a shallow, two-bit ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy?
Did you really have to go there?
Yes. Yes I did.
Lynata wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Commissariat has non-combat commissars too: being halfway to an intelligence agency it has plenty of desk jobs and ceremonial officers.
That sounds like some BL "extension"? The original description indeed only knows one type of Commissar - so much so that they train their cadets on the battlefield.
Not to mention that at least in the case of GW's miniature as well as FFG's character class, both are intended to portray battlefield Commissars, even if such a hypothetical noncom-commissar ("noncommissar"? ) would exist.
The Cain series is the primary reference, but the way the Commissariat is mentioned elsewhere supports the idea that it's its own agency, with central organization and the like. Like how the Adeptus Arbites has its own central command and organizational structure detached from its field operations. It's not necessarily a large fraction of the total commissars, but even a small percent is still a rather large number.
There's also Commissariat officers attached to non-combat positions, like the Schola Progenium instructors.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Because Warcraft is a shallow, two-bit ripoff of Warhammer Fantasy?
I was more referring to the "sex sells" fanservice.
Unfortunately, this aspect has gotten a lot stronger over the years. WC3 feral amazons > WoW girly cheerleaders who dropped their xenophobia and magophobia overnight
I know, it was pretty clear from the context. But everything in Warcraft is just a watered-down version of something from WFB: Warhammer has female elves who charge into battle wearing nothing but the blood of sacrifices, Warcraft has elves who wear bikinis and do table dances.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:IIRC, the Bl books particularly the HH series are listed on the New York times best seller or something? Also, all the fluff arguments about the HH era and so on that use novels.
"Selling a lot" and being consistent is not necessarily related. Don't the HH novels have a Primarch switching his hair colour from one book to another?
And what do you mean with the fluff arguments?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Their unique position allows them unfettered access to and member of the Imperial Guard or any of its facilities, and they mete out their brutal punishment without doubt, secure in the knowledge that what they do is for the ultimate betterment of the Imperium as a whole.
Deviating interpretations aside, even this description doesn't sound like a desk job to me. This is a character class that people are supposed to play in active combat with a squad of grunts, leading from the front.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also the book 15 hours.
Didn't read it, what does it say?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So what about Goto? Is that supposed to be a threat?
More like a bet.
I bet you'll find more people willing to go by the new GK Codex than C.S. Goto's novels.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So repetition is good then according to you?
In a way, yes! Repetition means consistency over the years.
Don't get me wrong, I also like to read new stuff. But when some stuff is repeated, chances are the new stuff needs to fit in with the old, so that the book is internally consistent.
And compared to Black Library, GW has been remarkably consistent over the years. This is not in any way surprising, however - the more authors and less coordination between them you have, the less overlap you'll see between their books.
I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”
I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.”
That’s show business for you. - Aaron Dembski-Bowden, author of The First Heretic (and others)
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The Cain series is the primary reference, but the way the Commissariat is mentioned elsewhere supports the idea that it's its own agency, with central organization and the like. Like how the Adeptus Arbites has its own central command and organizational structure detached from its field operations. It's not necessarily a large fraction of the total commissars, but even a small percent is still a rather large number.
There's also Commissariat officers attached to non-combat positions, like the Schola Progenium instructors.
The Cain novels depict a completely different Schola Progenium (no gender segregation, the instructors aren't tough-as-nails Drill Abbots but corrupted emissaries of various Imperial Adepta, young Sisters and Commissars are trained on-site rather than in their respective organisations) and a different Commissariat training. Going by a White Dwarf article from GW:
"It is the duty of the Commissars in the Imperial Guard to maintain the highest standards of discipline and inspire the troops by their own example. [...] Personnel selected to become Cadet Commissars are drawn from schools run by Missionaries of the Ministorum. [...] The Commissar-General of an Imperial Guard Regiment selects the most promising recruits from those recommended to him by the schools of the Ministorum. After basic Imperial Guard training, these become Cadet Commissars and proceed to special training for their demanding responsibilities as Commissars. [...] The Commissar Training Squad accompanies Imperial Guard forces into battle and takes part in some of the fiercest fighting. [...] "
Generally, I really don't doubt that the Commissariat has some clerks running their paperwork, never having seen a battlefield in their life. But they won't be called Commissars, and won't get to wear fancy hats.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:IIRC, the Bl books particularly the HH series are listed on the New York times best seller or something? Also, all the fluff arguments about the HH era and so on that use novels.
"Selling a lot" and being consistent is not necessarily related. Don't the HH novels have a Primarch switching his hair colour from one book to another?
What? We were talking about who reads them. What consistency are you talking about? GW has never cared about consistency or do retcons not exist in your GW centric world that you always post about.
Edited by Manchu. Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. Thanks.
Deviating interpretations aside, even this description doesn't sound like a desk job to me. This is a character class that people are supposed to play in active combat with a squad of grunts, leading from the front.
*sigh*
IMPERIAL COMMISSARS
With so many worlds and cultures feeding the armies of the Imperial Guard, it can be a daunting task for commanders
to unite and control the soldiers in their armies. Often feral world savages will be asked to fight alongside refined
noble regiments from powerful hive worlds or penal soldiers expected to serve the very authority which sentenced
them. Divided by language and customs, this can lead to disruption among regiments and more importantly poor
morale within the regiments themselves, as Guardsmen forget why they have been torn from their home worlds and
ferried across the void. The Imperial Commissariat exists to ensure control over the regiments of the Imperial Guard
and remind every Guardsman of his duty both to the Imperium and to the God-Emperor. Practically every company
in the Imperial Guard, regardless of the world from which they hail, will have at least one Commissar attached as an
advisor to its company command group. It is the Commissars’ job to keep the commanders and their men true to the
God-Emperor’s cause and make sure their duty to the Imperium is done. As Commissars exist outside the command
structure at the regimental level, answering instead to the Departmento Munitorum, they have the power to remove
commanders if they are not performing their duty (often violently through the use of a bolt pistol). However, a good
Commissar knows when to use fear and when to use inspiration to motivate men, and alongside the many cruel and
brutal Commissars there are those who lead by example, standing atop trenches in the face of enemy fire to stir their
company to courage and show scorn to their enemies.
A combination morale officer and political operative,
Commissars are tasked with making sure that every Guardsman
does his sworn duty to the God-Emperor and the Imperium.
Commissars are constantly watching, always on the lookout
for weakness or corruption among their charges. They
stalk among the ranks of the soldiery and the officers alike,
conspicuous in their peaked hats and ornate coats. Through
webs of informants and the use of propaganda, they
control the hearts and minds of the Imperial
Guard, moulding both the rank-and-file
Guardsmen and their officers into model
soldiers, free of doubt or mercy for
their enemies. Their unique position
allows them unfettered access to any
member of the Imperial Guard or
any of its facilities, and they mete out
their brutal punishment without doubt,
secure in the knowledge that what they do is for the
ultimate betterment of the Imperium as a whole.
I'm not saying that Commissars don''t have a combat role. But they do have other duties like monitoring officers or observing what will be printed on propaganda leaflets, etc
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Also the book 15 hours.
Didn't read it, what does it say?
It has a Commissar not working the front lines presumably cause he doesn't want to get killed, I'm not sure as he's not a character, who checks out the people who print propaganda leaflets. He's their boss.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:So what about Goto? Is that supposed to be a threat?
and people are willing to go by other novels than C.S goto novels. so what's your point?
Seriously Lynata, why don't you go and become the boss of GW and then declare anything not codexes to be non-canon. That way you can be happy.
In a way, yes! Repetition means consistency over the years.
Don't get me wrong, I also like to read new stuff. But when some stuff is repeated, chances are the new stuff needs to fit in with the old, so that the book is internally consistent.
And compared to Black Library, GW has been remarkably consistent over the years. This is not in any way surprising, however - the more authors and less coordination between them you have, the less overlap you'll see between their books.
Retcons don't exist in your world then? You really have an obsession with consistency.
I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”
I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.”
That’s show business for you. - Aaron Dembski-Bowden, author of The First Heretic (and others)
And so what?
And done. Anyway, getting off as I have a lot of work to do :-(.
This will be addressed in my upcoming novel: Of Love and Scything Talons.
It will be a riveting tale of forbidden love, between a workaholic Hive Tyrant and an unusually spirited Hormagaunt. Set against the backdrop of the Battle for MacCragge, the turning tides of battle will reflect on their deep seated, repressed urge to elope from the Hive and live as bug and...bug.
The critical point is when the Hive Tyrant is offered wings by the Bio-ship, if he agrees to a transfer to Hive Fleet Gorgon. But this would mean separation from his beloved Hormagaunt, a stubbornly patriotic citizen of Hive Fleet Behemoth. In the end, he accepts the wings and attempts to flee with her. But just as they reach the sector border, they are intercepted by a Grey Knight commander, who unleashes his repressed sexual jealousy against their newfound freedom.
It should be done in about June. Expect a lot of steamy yet PG13 scenes.
Lynata wrote: But they won't be called Commissars, and won't get to wear fancy hats.
Well yes, but why are you repeating yourself?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: Anyway, hello Melissia, still playing 40kTT? What are your armies? Just curious.
Only occasionally. I still have most of my models from before, although I have sold some to help pay for college so they're smaller armies. Too lazy to re-calculate points, but I have Sisters Orks, and Guard still.
Evileyes wrote: What I never liked, was the fact that one in 1000 humans or something similar, are psyker's. And all of them, every single damn one, is male. Hell of a coincidence that.
I mean, I would absolutely adore, a special character for any imperial army whatsoever, who was a female psyker of such power, that they ignored their usual recruiment and rigorous bio-engineering traditions, in favour of harnessing the ability of said psyker.
But apparently, being able to shoot lightning from your hands on a whim, is something you need to be a tank of a man to do. Or, be an eldar, which in my mind, is just a cop-out. You would think the imperium would notice the eldar has a number of incredibly powerfull female psykers and think "Maybe we shouldn't kill every female psyker for having ladyparts.
Then again, I found a way round being a female gamer, with no cool character's (Without being an eldar in spandexarmour, or space-nun's in, again, spandex plate that is), and that was in playing an androginous/genderless race, in daemon's. Nurgle daemon's don't really have a gender, even if they were once men, such as in the case of plaguebearers, khorne stuff is just killy incarnate, gender doesn't come into it, tzeentch is made up of amorphous blob's of warpstuff, so again, genderless, and slaanesh stuff, is a different gender and appearance, depending on who is viewing them.
On a side note, I always wondered if sister's of battle fighting daemonettes, saw something along the lines of these guy's.
Putting aside the almost crippling irony of this statement given the title and context of the thread, it's interesting to note that people with androgynous appearance are typically rated as being more attractive and more likeable in studies on the subject, particularly in studies where the participants are aware that their answers will be anonymised and so do not feel constrained to adhere to traditional notions of gender and sexuality. So, if a less "bewb-corset" focused female Commissar were to be released, it looking a little "mannish" might not be a bad thing. EDIT: Or a psyker, for that matter - I should pay more attention
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm not referring to androgonyous looking people.
I'm referring to a sculpt of a woman who's face resembles a man's and whose body type resembles a man's, because GW sculps tend to look like crap.
Looking like a man =\= androgynous. An androgynous person, by definition, can not look like a man.
lol @ jumping to conclusions and assuming I was referring to bust size/sexiness, though.
Yes, silly me, for failing to interpret your six word response in a manner other than the obvious given the subject of the thread. Also, "mannish" is typically used to refer to women who look like men, or women who lack particularly feminine characteristics, the latter of which definitions would include androgynous features.
Yodhrin wrote: Also, "mannish" is typically used to refer to women who look like men, or women who lack particularly feminine characteristics, the latter of which definitions would include androgynous features.
The people who use the latter definition are using the word wrong.
Have the common decency to refrain from assuming others don't know what they are talking about.
Nope, the farseer model is genderless tending towards male. For the most part they all are, although I (and some other friends) generally agree that the one holding a sword point down and a shuriken pistol in the other hand is female (this one). Just something about the swish of the robes around the hips, I guess?
Also thirding the vote for a female Imperial Psyker model. Maybe something like;Alice Boone from the Ragged Edges Dark Heresy comic?
Eldar are a slender race, so minis like that could be said to be of either gender... but given the preponderance of male minis in the line, eh, not sure it quite makes the grade.
I tend to think of Eldar as feminine, so I suppose I assume a model that could go either way would be female. The actual model does seem a tad broad for a woman though.
Heh... what a choice of words... but, I agree. The Farseer in the linked image appears too wide in the shoulders to be what I would think of as an Eldar female. I'd have to side-by-side with a Banshee or Harlequin to really judge. Still, I've always pictured Eldar females as willowy.
I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.
LumenPraebeo wrote: I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.
A Sister of Battle has already done something very similar to that, in fighting a Hive Tyrant in single combat and winning.
And really, Sisters would fight BETTER against Chaos than they would against Tyranids. Keep in mind, this is a setting where Sisters of Battle are capable of performing miracles because their martial arts is better than yours.
I remember a saying, "There is no animal more dangerous than a man with a knife."
I think wolves are under one hundred pounds. I'm a bit more scared of large dogs than wolves. Either one would leave me pretty wrecked, but I think I could kill a wolf in a life or death situation.
Aside from the fact the largest dogs are twice the size of a wolf or more? The next biggest problem would be that aggressive dogs are trained to be aggressive towards humans and most wild animals will be fearful.
Melissia wrote: Large dogs are more dangerous than wolves anyway.
What makes you say that?
Many breeds of large dogs have been raised and trained for aggression and brutality-- it's in their genes, and we put it there. Wolves, on the other hand, are animals instead of bred domesticated beasts-- a wolf, threatened, will likely retreat from danger unless you're threatening their children. They don't have the upbringing of the large dogs, and their genes are not artificially tweaked through breeding, but rather, natural selection.
Wolves are not pets, and should never be treated like such; that said, they are also still not quite as dangerous to humans as large dogs are.
I have a deerhound that would tower over a wolf. He's a soft lump of friendly fur unless he is hunting. Then he's a vicious, sleek, speedy killing machine. I reckon two or three wolves wouldn't stand a chance, so yeah. Some dogs are far more dangerous than wolves.
Domesticated animals kill way more people than wild ones simply because there's so many of them and people actually hang out around them.
Cows and horses are dangerous, not because they're vicious but because they're large and easily spooked. When one panics and wants to flee it won't stop for a human. Plenty of dogs means plenty more chances of a dog attack than a wolf attack. Many breeds are aggressive if not handled right, and the kind of people that buy a so-called "fighting dog" aren't always equipped to train it right.
LumenPraebeo wrote:I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.
Personally, I wouldn't want to see anyone wrestle a Daemon Prince with their bare hands. It really is possible to be too heroic.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:What? We were talking about who reads them.
Huh? What would that have anything to do with the discussion? I couldn't care less about who reads something. "Twilight" and "Mein Kampf" were bestsellers too.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm not saying that Commissars don''t have a combat role. But they do have other duties like monitoring officers or observing what will be printed on propaganda leaflets, etc
Why were we in disagreement, then? All I'm saying is that all Commissars are combatants. Of course they don't just fight but have other duties as well.
Guess this was just a misunderstanding then.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:It has a Commissar not working the front lines presumably cause he doesn't want to get killed, I'm not sure as he's not a character, who checks out the people who print propaganda leaflets. He's their boss.
See, this (as well as Cain) is something where I'd be asking myself how and why such a character would end up in a position like this one. There's no draft. The Imperium doesn't force you to become a Commissar. The progena spend several years in a Schola facility being indoctrinated, drilled and tested, with only those who show "martial aptitude" actually proceeding to any sort of military role. Most progena get civilian assignments, such as becoming a scribe. You've actually gotta work real hard to get picked for one of the few Commissar, Storm Trooper or Battle Sister slots.
As usual, I'm going solely by GW's fluff here - in this case to show that some of the novels' ideas may just not "synch" well with the things you may read in a Codex.
Again, it doesn't make either version wrong or right. It does mean, however, that some of us will note inconsistencies between the various sources, at which point they are forced to pick.
Sidenote: As I don't know the novel you are referring to, it is well possible that it actually offers some sort of deeper explanation, such as that Commissar just being real old or whatever. I can work only with what you are disclosing.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Seriously Lynata, why don't you go and become the boss of GW and then declare anything not codexes to be non-canon. That way you can be happy.
This isn't about canon or non-canon. Preferences aside, I've come to terms with the way GW handles these things. All I'm asking is people acknowledging that not everything with the 40k label is compatible with each other - this keeps being a major cause of debate between dakkanauts and other 40k things, just because everyone keeps pointing to a different book.
I doo that, too, but I know now that my interpretation is just an opinion and that I cannot enforce it upon others by claiming that the stuff I post is "more right" than anyone elses. Very few people seem to think likewise.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Retcons don't exist in your world then? You really have an obsession with consistency.
Of course retcons do exist. But I won't retcon my interpretation of the setting every second week just because some freelance writer came up with yet another novel describing things differently. At least GW only seems to do it every few years.
The decision on how to handle the sources/fluff is something that each of us needs to do on an individual basis, however.
But yes, I have an obsession with consistency. Consistency is awesome.
Melissia wrote: Hm. Looking at the original post, I see a few problems from a feminist perspective-- namely, the post seems to suggest that the only way to include women is to include them in love stories.
Why not include women in a way that passes the Bechdel test?
edit: The Bechdel Test:
1: Story has two women, preferably named women.
2: Have at least one conversation...
3: ... that doesn't involve a man or men, or the male population in general.
tl;dr, not everything a female character would talk about in 40k has to do with loving men.
I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.
That would be like watching a porno that has a 30 second sex scene followed by an hour of cuddling.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:What? We were talking about who reads them.
Huh? What would that have anything to do with the discussion? I couldn't care less about who reads something. "Twilight" and "Mein Kampf" were bestsellers too.
Now I'm just confused.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:I'm not saying that Commissars don''t have a combat role. But they do have other duties like monitoring officers or observing what will be printed on propaganda leaflets, etc
Why were we in disagreement, then? All I'm saying is that all Commissars are combatants. Of course they don't just fight but have other duties as well.
Guess this was just a misunderstanding then.
What is more correct is to say that all Commissars are combat capable.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:It has a Commissar not working the front lines presumably cause he doesn't want to get killed, I'm not sure as he's not a character, who checks out the people who print propaganda leaflets. He's their boss.
See, this (as well as Cain) is something where I'd be asking myself how and why such a character would end up in a position like this one. There's no draft. The Imperium doesn't force you to become a Commissar. The progena spend several years in a Schola facility being indoctrinated, drilled and tested, with only those who show "martial aptitude" actually proceeding to any sort of military role. Most progena get civilian assignments, such as becoming a scribe. You've actually gotta work real hard to get picked for one of the few Commissar, Storm Trooper or Battle Sister slots.
As usual, I'm going solely by GW's fluff here - in this case to show that some of the novels' ideas may just not "synch" well with the things you may read in a Codex.
Again, it doesn't make either version wrong or right. It does mean, however, that some of us will note inconsistencies between the various sources, at which point they are forced to pick.
Sidenote: As I don't know the novel you are referring to, it is well possible that it actually offers some sort of deeper explanation, such as that Commissar just being real old or whatever. I can work only with what you are disclosing.
And whose to say that despite all that he doesn't want to die? That experiences to the realities on the ground instead of what has been drilled into their heads by the Schola has changed a persons attitude? Whose to say that the Commissar corp may have some bad apples who managed to slip through?
Again, its possible(its been sometime since I read the story) that he was assigned by conmand to be the head of a propaganda section. Or he could be what the IG in the novel described which is a smart commissar is one who knows that the way to live is to be away from the frontlines. Other commissars in that book, as described in the holy codex(your favorite book ) are dead, killed by the Orks.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Seriously Lynata, why don't you go and become the boss of GW and then declare anything not codexes to be non-canon. That way you can be happy.
This isn't about canon or non-canon. Preferences aside, I've come to terms with the way GW handles these things. All I'm asking is people acknowledging that not everything with the 40k label is compatible with each other - this keeps being a major cause of debate between dakkanauts and other 40k things, just because everyone keeps pointing to a different book.
I doo that, too, but I know now that my interpretation is just an opinion and that I cannot enforce it upon others by claiming that the stuff I post is "more right" than anyone elses. Very few people seem to think likewise.
I think people already got this and understood this.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Retcons don't exist in your world then? You really have an obsession with consistency.
Of course retcons do exist. But I won't retcon my interpretation of the setting every second week just because some freelance writer came up with yet another novel describing things differently. At least GW only seems to do it every few years.
The decision on how to handle the sources/fluff is something that each of us needs to do on an individual basis, however.
But yes, I have an obsession with consistency. Consistency is awesome.
No one is asking you to retcon your on personal interpretation of the setting. Just keep in mind that GW don't care about your interpretation, just like they don't care about mine, and will change it using whatever and whenever they feel like. GW, FW, BL and FFG work together on this.
I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.
Interesting. So women can only talk about men or shoes? They cannot talk about bolters, warp, engines or military strategy?
I thought it was a bit dubious statement too - unless of course they were part of the logistics corps then they may well spend alot of time talking about shoes!?
that being said - I was reading the biography of the first (UK) female Apache pilot and she did say that between flying combat misisons and when they were off duty she would go and talk and look at wedding magazines with her female friend in the Opps section.............buts there were limited options when off duty in Bastion.
I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussing shoes.
That would be like watching a porno that has a 30 second sex scene followed by an hour of cuddling.
People complain when I call people misogynist, but come on. Do you really have to make it so easy?
I mean, sure. I don't read 40k books to read about two women discussion shoes either. Or men for that matter.
I read 40k books to read about heroines (and heroes) kicking arse and hang the names. I'm of the camp that thinks all characters should be female by default, because I am selfish and prefer reading about female characters.
I also think that making a character a man just so they can be all physically strong and stuff is pathetic. A human with a power fist is just as strong, male or female. The same thing goes for eviscerators and power swords.
As for killing wolves with your bare hands, why would you want to? That doesn't prove you're a big strong man. That proves you're an idiot who doesn't deserve to be human. Humans use tools. Even if you're caught out in the wilderness alone and some random lone wolf attacks you, grab a freaking branch, moron.
Or hell, a sharp rock. a vine to use as a whip. Or even fething martial arts techniques-- SOMETHING other than brute strength. Because if you want to go brute strength, no human can equal the Orks anyway. Even Space Marines are inferior to the higher up Orks in raw physical power-- whom are capable of tearing apart a Space Marine like he's nothing.
To use a better reference... the beast may be stronger, more cunning, and more biologically adapted to warfare... but that doesn't matter once you pump them full of enough high caliber explosive ammunition. Or psychic energy. Or power sword.
[summons the spirit of Zero Punctuation] Besides, Kratos used weapons to kill the giant beasts he took down, and are YOU more manly than Kratos? No? Then shaddaaaaap!
Melissia wrote: Large dogs are more dangerous than wolves anyway.
What makes you say that?
Many breeds of large dogs have been raised and trained for aggression and brutality-- it's in their genes, and we put it there. Wolves, on the other hand, are animals instead of bred domesticated beasts-- a wolf, threatened, will likely retreat from danger unless you're threatening their children. They don't have the upbringing of the large dogs, and their genes are not artificially tweaked through breeding, but rather, natural selection.
Wolves are not pets, and should never be treated like such; that said, they are also still not quite as dangerous to humans as large dogs are.
Ever seen a dog/wolf hybrid? Imagine a 200+lbs wolf that will either be highly aggressive (more people have been killed by wolf dogs (wogs? dolfs?) than by wolves) or a big, lovable ball of fun.
[summons the spirit of Zero Punctuation]
Besides, Kratos used weapons to kill the giant beasts he took down, and are YOU more manly than Kratos? No? Then shaddaaaaap!
Kratos is on the Primarch level, but with balls (literally! How many Primarchs got laid?)
The wolves were brought up in the context of a man going out and beating one to death with his bare hands to prove his big and tough he was.
There was a guy who beat a bear to death with a piece of firewood, and one dude killed a cougar with a Swiss Army Knife - while it was chewing on him and one fellow literally strangled a cougar that was attacking his dogs.
Ah beautiful BC - where every day is fenaras (or where ever the Space Wolves come from)
There are actually wolves in the area where I live (well not literally, I live in a town, but on countryside nearby) and some people are scared of them. However, last time a wolf killed a human in Finland was in 19th century.
Melissia wrote: Also, it's Fenris. As in the mythological creature.
Thanks, I'll have to work to forget this
anyway, if a chick trained a lot and had a nice set of muscles then a wolf would not give her much trouble (just some lovely bitemarks)
Hell if you want to impress me, go kill a bear with a sharp rock (or sword) those things steal food from wolves all the time, and they have a lot more poky bits...
Crimson wrote: There are actually wolves in the area where I live (well not literally, I live in a town, but on countryside nearby) and some people are scared of them. However, last time a wolf killed a human in Finland was in 19th century.
The one that amused me was the story of an American woman who moved to the UK and refused to let her children play outside because she was scared of foxes attacking them. Apparently, where she used to live that was a problem with coyotes and she thought they were the same.
Crimson wrote: There are actually wolves in the area where I live (well not literally, I live in a town, but on countryside nearby) and some people are scared of them. However, last time a wolf killed a human in Finland was in 19th century.
The one that amused me was the story of an American woman who moved to the UK and refused to let her children play outside because she was scared of foxes attacking them. Apparently, where she used to live that was a problem with coyotes and she thought they were the same.
A guy got bitten by a coyote near my place a couple of months back. It is a problem, they get fed a lot by well meaning folks and then learn to associate humans with food. (according to this nice Parks Canada "Bear Aware" brochure)
I'm not denying that coyotes are a problem. It's just that foxes are about a third the size and nobody feeds them anything - they're basically harmless unless you're actively persecuting them.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'm not denying that coyotes are a problem. It's just that foxes are about a third the size and nobody feeds them anything - they're basically harmless unless you're actively persecuting them.
Yeah I like foxes - theres even a place (in Russia) that sells them as pets... (no I didn't, the cats are wild enough thank you)
but back to the original topic (for now) GW needs to make more female models with a different sculptor, like Brother Vinnie or someone else who can do nice feminine faces. (Because the slutty outfit, boob plate and "natural assets" can be overridden by an ugly mug - just look at any of GW's girls and you'll see what I mean.)
I'm quite happy with the Dark Eldar sculpts. I just wish they'd update the Sisters ones. The Celestian Standard Bearer hasn't been updated since 1997 when it was just a Sororitas Banner Bearer and still looks like Sean Connery's uglier brother.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'm quite happy with the Dark Eldar sculpts. I just wish they'd update the Sisters ones. The Celestian Standard Bearer hasn't been updated since 1997 when it was just a Sororitas Banner Bearer and still looks like Sean Connery's uglier brother.
You're right about the Dark Eldar - they look the part, but everyone else (especially SOB) could use some work to make them a little bit more feminine - Boob armor means nothing, its all in the face.
Actually I think I'd prefer seomething more knightly myself. a single pronounced curve over the chest instead of two cups would be better ,and it'd give more room to put a fleur de lys icon.
Melissia wrote: Actually I think I'd prefer seomething more knightly myself. a single pronounced curve over the chest instead of two cups would be better ,and it'd give more room to put a fleur de lys icon.
That would be nice
It would go a lot better with the look GW is going for...
The SOB always reminded me of 19th century take of Jean of Arc.
And her flag, is it just me or is that something the SOB would use.
We were smashed in a youth hostel in Milan, and everyone was watching the Joan of Arc movie in the common room. I was only half cut so I was watching it as well, and when it got to the particularly emotional and teary eyed part as she is being burned at the stake, my stupidest and drunkest companion who had been asleep for an hour suddenly woke up, loudly squeaked his stool across the hardwood floor, lurched to his feet and started to shout.
"DO YOU SEE.. hic.. WHAT YOU GET!? THAT'S WHAT YOU GET..hic!.. WHEN YOU feth WITH US!! ENGLAND! ENGLAND!"
At which point a British girl across the room shouted..
Lynata wrote:One of the things the Space Marine videogame did well was Lieutenant Mira.
Totally agree. The IG codex says "that the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous". If interpreted literally, around half of Cadians should be women. Mira was great, she wasn't sexualised or made to look weak. She outlived her seniors and bascially saved the planet prior to the arrival of the smurfs.
Melissia wrote:Actually I think I'd prefer seomething more knightly myself. a single pronounced curve over the chest instead of two cups would be better ,and it'd give more room to put a fleur de lys icon.
I'm with you, people making boob armor looks wrong. A simple chest plate is far more realistic and i'd guess comfortable. Just looking at modern armies, the women wear pretty much identical armor to the men.
I think GW should mix female heads into the IG sets. Cadian at the least. I think a mixed squad would look great as long as they keep it sensible.
Oh ,the armor women wear in modern times IS different-- but not in shape. Its harness is different, it doesn't rest entirely on the shoulders, which is necessary because a woman's shoulders are, generally speaking, shaped differently than a man's.
It's sometimes things that are really obvious in hindsight, too, simple things like female pilots need their jumpsuits to zip down further than male pilots so they don't have to take them off to urinate during a flight. Or some women just need smaller uniforms than the men.
But I don't think this is really an issue in the Imperium, this is not modern times we're talking about, but a civilization that has been at total war with SOMETHING for over 10,000 years.
mad_eddy_13 wrote:Would work towards the appearance of faith being the only thing on their side, besides its takes more skill to handle then the old chain-sword.
With powered armour and the kind of weapons and protective gear employed on the battlefields of the 41st millennium, I think brute force will win out every time. The Sisters aren't exactly Eldar'ish when it comes to mobility and fighting style. Save for the Seraphim, perhaps.
No, when you really want to depict finesse - the Sisters do have mono cutlasses and power swords, too, and those tend to feature rather elaborate designs.
Or the Ardent Blade as once wielded by Saint Katherine and now featured on the Living Saint miniature.
Once you start looking at chain weapons, it'd be ... weird not to have a huge fethin' chainsaw but some flimsy rod that looks as if it'd break apart the moment you strike some heretic's armour with it.
Crimson wrote:I actually prefer SoB to be crazy fetish-nuns. IG guardswomen can have sensible armour.
I concur. Maybe that's just because this is how I've come to know them, but they'd just feel "wrong" to me if they would lose any of the gothic style they have right now.
It'd be like giving Space Marines reduced chestplates so they would have sufficient arm mobility to be able to aim with their guns. Sure, it'd be more "realistic", but it would also start to look rather generic and boring.
I think this is one of those times when what people mean by 'gothic' clashes a little. I think Melissia is referring to Gothic as in the historical style, while Lynata is referring to Gothic as in the modern subculture...
LumenPraebeo wrote: I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.
Keep in mind, this is a setting where Sisters of Battle are capable of performing miracles because their martial arts is better than yours.
I disagree.
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Furyou Miko wrote: As for killing wolves with your bare hands, why would you want to? That doesn't prove you're a big strong man. That proves you're an idiot who doesn't deserve to be human. Humans use tools. Even if you're caught out in the wilderness alone and some random lone wolf attacks you, grab a freaking branch, moron.
NO! Gotta do it manly way!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: Just chiming in to second the move towards chest plates rather than battle corsets.
I may love fetish fashion, but the realist in me screams when it's applied to soldiers.
I disagree, I like it when women look feminine. In reality, armor that shows off a woman's form just for the sake of it is a pretty stupid idea.But this is just miniatures we're talking about, not reality.
It's true. The whole "it's a miracle" stuff basically stems from people not believing how an ordinary human could pull off the stuff the Sisters do.
Well, that and people like to believe in miracles. Mirrors the real world perfectly.
Furyou Miko wrote:I think this is one of those times when what people mean by 'gothic' clashes a little. I think Melissia is referring to Gothic as in the historical style, while Lynata is referring to Gothic as in the modern subculture...
Hmm, to me it's generally a bit of both, I think. But in this case, yeah, the modern subculture.
Which I believe 40k as a whole tends to lean more heavily to. At least when looking at people's clothes, the nobility's hairstyles, etc. Buildings (and starships) on the other hand look more like the historical Gothic, whereas the detail on weaponry can be attributed to both. Ultimately, 40k almost has its own artistic style by blending so many different things together... but I'd like to continue calling it Gothic rather than making up a new term.
BlaxicanX wrote:To be fair, it doesn't really make sense as a "faith" thing if, at the end of the day, the miracles are a result of their sheer badassery.
Why not?
There's a lot of badassery in the real world that has been attributed to faith. Which actually is pretty close to the truth. Psychology plays an extremely important part here - the human body is capable of a lot of things that are just not triggered under ordinary conditions.
Pain suppression, for example. In the real world, dentists and surgeons have begun to use hypnosis to trick people into not feeling pain during a procedure without anasthesia. In 40k, a Battle Sister simply ignores just having catched a couple bolt rounds to the torso, leaving her with gaping holes. She'll probably die later from blood loss, but in the mean time she will continue to advance shooting heretics left and right. Ordinary soldiers witness this and go like "omg she should've been dead from that round, the Emperor must protect her!"
LumenPraebeo wrote: I think I would like to see more female characters. But I also think that manly roles should be for males only. Gotta wrestle a daemon prince with your bare hands? Nope, gotta be male.
Keep in mind, this is a setting where Sisters of Battle are capable of performing miracles because their martial arts is better than yours.
I disagree.
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Furyou Miko wrote: As for killing wolves with your bare hands, why would you want to? That doesn't prove you're a big strong man. That proves you're an idiot who doesn't deserve to be human. Humans use tools. Even if you're caught out in the wilderness alone and some random lone wolf attacks you, grab a freaking branch, moron.
NO! Gotta do it manly way!
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Furyou Miko wrote: Just chiming in to second the move towards chest plates rather than battle corsets.
I may love fetish fashion, but the realist in me screams when it's applied to soldiers.
I disagree, I like it when women look feminine. In reality, armor that shows off a woman's form just for the sake of it is a pretty stupid idea.But this is just miniatures we're talking about, not reality.
Indeed. And I like it when men look masculine. So I propose all space marines get abs indented onto their armour, and batnipple's like from that batman film.
......But that wouldn't be right, because that would make men feel uncomfortable, not women.
Evileyes wrote:......But that wouldn't be right, because that would make men feel uncomfortable, not women.
I think you actually have a point regarding this reaction - but isn't it strange, historically? Back in the ancient days, nipple armour was fairly popular with a number of highly successful and male-dominated militaries.
Maybe today it's just that people are uncomfortable with naked flesh, even though privately they enjoy seeing it, at least on the opposite gender. Western civilisation needs a good shrink.
Indeed. And I like it when men look masculine. So I propose all space marines get abs indented onto their armour, and batnipple's like from that batman film.
......But that wouldn't be right, because that would make men feel uncomfortable, not women.
Because there's only two ways faith powers can work. Either the Emprah is smiling down upon them and helping them out a little, in which case it's psychic based and not really a result of their martial prowess so much as it's a matter of the Emperor favoring them because of their faith.
OR
What is perceived to be miracles is actually just them being a bunch of badasses, and the "faith" aspect is a placebo.
I prefer #2 because it makes them look better and is also more logical, personally.
......But that wouldn't be right, because that would make men feel uncomfortable, not women.
It's funny because it's not really true.
See Catachans and Blood Angels for details. Men like nipples and rippling bare abs on their characters. Arnold Schwarzenegger's shirt comes off halfway through every movie for a reason, and it ain't exclusively for the ladies' benefits.
Because there's only two ways faith powers can work. Either the Emprah is smiling down upon them and helping them out a little, in which case it's psychic based and not really a result of their martial prowess so much as it's a matter of the Emperor favoring them because of their faith.
OR
What is perceived to be miracles is actually just them being a bunch of badasses, and the "faith" aspect is a placebo.
I prefer #2 because it makes them look better and is also more logical, personally.
I agree. I prefer it kept vague, thought, so that either interpretation may be correct.
Evileyes wrote:......But that wouldn't be right, because that would make men feel uncomfortable, not women.
I think you actually have a point regarding this reaction - but isn't it strange, historically? Back in the ancient days, nipple armour was fairly popular with a number of highly successful and male-dominated militaries.
Maybe today it's just that people are uncomfortable with naked flesh, even though privately they enjoy seeing it, at least on the opposite gender. Western civilisation needs a good shrink.
A lot of homophobia has been shown via various psychological and sociological studies to be internalized-- people get aroused, even slightly, and then say "no that's not me I hate this and everyone associated with it". Not all of them, but it's a strong trend, especially among those that are most vehement about homophobia.
Random weird factoid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's also a third explanation, that I don't like much. Namely, that their strong faith effects the warp, and that in turn effects realspace. That theory has been popular amongst chaos players, but it has long been contradicted by GW which has stated that the powers aren't psychic or warp-based in nature.
I'm with you, people making boob armor looks wrong. A simple chest plate is far more realistic and i'd guess comfortable. Just looking at modern armies, the women wear pretty much identical armor to the men
That's because, at least in the US military, our body-armor supply was never intended for female soldiers, and a lot of it is a decade-plus old. We've sent female soldiers into combat wearing armor designed for men, and it has affected their combat ability, because the design of the armor made it ill-fitting and more restrictive to them than it did to male soldiers. Currently, we have deployed units testing out a new design of body armor, that features a shorter torso and narrower shoulders for female combatants, and the results are very, very promising from a combat readiness perspective.
Incidentally, even with the helmets on, the women wearing it are more obviously female, though not to a great degree. Inch for inch, a woman has longer legs and a more-compact torso than a man, as compares to body-proportions, which the new body armor shows a bit... because it fits properly. The previous suit caused the lower edge of the chestplate to basically hang to her thighs, which made running and climbing more difficult, simply because the armor got in the way of her raising her leg more than a few inches. There were also problems with the shoulder pieces restricting arm movement, because the standard male body armor was wider in the shoulders than the female soldier was, and with the upper-arm-guards in place, the armor would catch on itself when she tried to raise her rifle.
Psienesis wrote: That's because, at least in the US military, our body-armor supply was never intended for female soldiers, and a lot of it is a decade-plus old.
That's not true any more. You're a year or so out of date here.
They have gone through a few revisions of this armor as they try to get it in perfect fit for the general female form. but none of it is "boob-cup", because that would be stupid, and also bad armor design, creating a shot trap.
Psienesis wrote: Actually, I, uh, think I mentioned the very things that article you linked mentions in my post. >.>
You insinuated that boob-cups were what was needed to have womens' body armor fit properly. the image there shows no boob-cups on armor that fits properly.
No, he was pointing out that the reason women wear similar armor to men is that we are still in the process of updating armor for the female skeletal structure. You didn't read his post, you just jumped to an assumption that he is an idiot who thinks boob plates are realistic.
Amaya wrote: No, he was pointing out that the reason women wear similar armor to men is that we are still in the process of updating armor for the female skeletal structure. You didn't read his post, you just jumped to an assumption that he is an idiot who thinks boob plates are realistic.
I read the post. However, the insinuation is still there given the section that he quoted.
Or its a feminist jumping to conclusions and making statements based on gut feeling, implications or 'intuition' without actually reading the source material, something which she herself has accused others of in the past?
Yeah I have to say, the idea that men are "scared" of male abs and nipples and gak is ridiculous. Men are very different than none lesbian women in that regard, in that we like buff men as well. Some ladies might find fantasy women scantily clad offensive, but we men demand that our heros are big and brawny and awesome. In the same way that we don't like dog ugly actresses! I dont want my fantasy heros to look puny, I want them to look awesome and kick ass.
Superman and Spiderman and Batman would suck if they had pot bellies and skinny arms.. You love all that gak as a kid, and even as an adult because men like fictional men to be alpha males, maybe its due to our penchant for enjoying violence?
I like looking at Conan, nipples and all, ripping a mans arm off and bludgeoning someone else to death with it. I don't see why male nudity would concern anyone a jot, gay, straight or otherwise.
Psienesis wrote: Actually, I, uh, think I mentioned the very things that article you linked mentions in my post. >.>
You insinuated that boob-cups were what was needed to have womens' body armor fit properly. the image there shows no boob-cups on armor that fits properly.
Why on earth would women need boob cups in armor? The vast majority of baps aren't so large that they need to be accommodated for. Its common sense, for example, very fat men have proper full on tits, and very muscular men have very large protruding pectoral muscles. They can still wear body armor.
Conversely, my missus is very slim and athletic, and she has small teddies as a result, the idea that "room" needs to be made for the breast in body armor is absolutely ridiculous, and probably arises from a virginal nerd fantasy that all girls Danny DeVito's are so big once they take their bra's off that they should all have adamantium grafted spinal columns like Wolverine.
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Amaya wrote: No, he was pointing out that the reason women wear similar armor to men is that we are still in the process of updating armor for the female skeletal structure.
Have you got a source mate, cos it sounds fething daft to me.
Like, Western nations are fatter than ever... have you seen some American cops!?
Do we have to develop new armor for men who have got tits?
MattyRM: It was a misunderstanding on my part. Regardless, I posted a link taht showed that armor DID need to fit women better. It wasn't the breasts however, that needed adjusting, so much as the shoulders, hips, etc. And looking at it, it's really hard to tell there's any difference between male and female body armor. The differences are there, but small enough that it's hard to notice when you look at them.
I don't know who it is recently that has been hyping this "women and wargaming" agenda but you can't write better comedy than this.
It's almost as hysterical as women in combat. Men have been wars since the dawn of mankind - let us keep it that way.
michaelcycle wrote: I don't know who it is recently that has been hyping this "women and wargaming" agenda but you can't write better comedy than this.
It's almost as hysterical as women in combat. Men have been wars since the dawn of mankind - let us keep it that way.
Melissia wrote: MattyRM: It was a misunderstanding on my part. Regardless, I posted a link taht showed that armor DID need to fit women better. It wasn't the breasts however, that needed adjusting, so much as the shoulders, hips, etc. And looking at it, it's really hard to tell there's any difference between male and female body armor. The differences are there, but small enough that it's hard to notice when you look at them.
Yeah fairy nuff, the point is surely though, its all about general body differences, and feth all to do with their breasts.
And yeah, If it fit me I would happily wear female body armor, I just cant see it making that much difference, I've worn about 6 different types of body armor, and ultimately its a few big feth off plates with some cloth wrapped around it.
Because it is not remotely pertitent and misinterpretation of the OP's query.
We are discussing in universe depictions of male and female characters. We are not discussing the men and women who play 40k. There is another thread for that.
So why does the majority of the community disagree that there are normal women in the hobby?
Reason: There are anecdotal examples aplenty from Gants Ghosts, Caphis Cain, to the lieutenant on Graia (the only woman in the game), to Inquisitor Adrastia (also the only human woman in the game), but let's not forget the SoB in Soulstorm either. The books Faith and Fire, Enforcer, and (I can't remember the third book) all have female main characters. So there are plenty of examples we can glean from.
But again, all these are hero's, the top 1% of all the other almost 30 years of storytelling and hobbying. I'm not going to say that the stories (or even the armies) be divided into equal parts, women, men, blacks, hispanics, children to all suffer the grimdark future in some dystopic equal-topia, but rather allow the hobby itself to reflect the desperation the IoM feels on a daily basis.
Make the SoB a real army. Expand the IG range to include female models. Have women actually die in the video games - not just the novels. Allow others to fall into corruption like their men counterparts. All of these things would add to the hobby, not detract from it.
If they added female models that would make for a larger number kit sales. Mostly because you would have to buy double the number of boxes to have an army entirely composed of male models. Female models for that matter too. It's not necessary but would make gw more money in the long run.
Personally I don't mind female models (infinity for example) but I don't think that Warhammer 40,000 calls for such a plush interpretation of such a backwards, gritty, xenophobic setting to include female models in every army. Sisters of battle, ok yes they fit the game perfectly, in fact I wish they would really fix their "codex" and we would see more of them but that calls for a whole new model range with grittier scar covered head shaved eye patch sporting prayer branded amazons. And dark eldar is full of badass female models.
Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.
Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.
Melissia wrote: Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.
Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.
That's why we don't see any Cadian women!!! None of them are scared of Commissars.
Just going to throw this out there, but the lore of my army has a draft rate over 700 times that of Cadia.
I need female models to represent this. Period.
I, like many other hobyists would rather not have to buy SoB blister packs just to decapitate and scavenge through other packs and non-gw merchandise to extract them.
Melissia wrote: Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.
Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.
Agree with all this when it comes to the models and gak. But fluff makes it clear that women are included in all institutions of the Imperium, from the Administratum, to the Imperial guard, to the ship captains, to the Arbites, to the Navigators, to the Astropaths, etc.
Individual planets may have discrimination against women, its possible. But the IOM doesn't care.
Melissia wrote: Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.
Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.
Agree with all this when it comes to the models and gak. But fluff makes it clear that women are included in all institutions of the Imperium, from the Administratum, to the Imperial guard, to the ship captains, to the Arbites, to the Navigators, to the Astropaths, etc.
Individual planets may have discrimination against women, its possible. But the IOM doesn't care.
I know, and I've said that, as have many others.
It's just that Black Library ignores this fact, to its own detriment.
I would actually admit that Black Library still does a better job than the GW studio themselves when it comes to this detail. Although of course this is always down to the individual authors - given that unlike with the design studio and its core team, the novels are written by loads of individuals with a much higher frequency, we're bound to find more variation between them, and sometimes this may include the presence and role of women. ADB talked about this once, I believe, and is sometimes mentioned as one of the few trailblazers concerning the "normalisation" of the role of female characters in this franchise.
BlaxicanX wrote:OR
What is perceived to be miracles is actually just them being a bunch of badasses, and the "faith" aspect is a placebo.
I prefer #2 because it makes them look better and is also more logical, personally.
Isn't that exactly what I posted? Guess we had a misunderstanding, as that mirrors my own thoughts precisely.
The placebo comparison is quite accurate, given that what is called "placebo effect" is a psychological thing that results in the person behaving differently and even sporting an altered range of physical abilities. That doesn't make the placebo any less important, though.
Melissia wrote:There's also a third explanation, that I don't like much. Namely, that their strong faith effects the warp, and that in turn effects realspace. That theory has been popular amongst chaos players, but it has long been contradicted by GW which has stated that the powers aren't psychic or warp-based in nature.
Indeed, the original Shield of Faith made them resist even benevolent psychic effects from allied Psykers - and the Inquisitor rules for Sororitas clearly points out that AoF are not psychic in nature and as such cannot be dispelled/countered.
I'm still preferring the effects of "faith as emotion" as an explanation for the Living Saints, though - given that the only alternatives would be the existence of actual divine magic, or simply dismissing Living Saints entirely and declaring the concept propaganda/superstition.
mattyrm wrote:Superman and Spiderman and Batman would suck if they had pot bellies and skinny arms..
I dunno, I thought part of the Spiderman charm was that he was a college nerd. Which is why I thought Maguire was way more suited to be his actor than the new guy.
Maybe that's just me, although I definitively agree about Conan etc.
One theory is that Living Saints are probably the Emperor's answer to daemons-- similar enough for a comparison, but quite different in execution. For example, no warp instability. But they are granted a measure of the Emperor's power and presence.
I'm not certain on the specifics myself, I dunno if I agree with that kind of theory, but I DO think that hte Emperor has something to do with it, based off of some side bits on the Shaman origin for the Emperor (namely, about how his psychic power was somehow "different" from other psykers).
necro munda has a whole female gang with ladies kitted out ready for combat in the IG
and thats just without conversions, lots of models like sisters of sigmar ect that can be modded to fit any army
is there a 50/50 split of models? heck no... but there isnt just one or two token models, and for every DD cup female model there are 3 steroid abusing male models
mysogynistic implies hatred of women as a cultural norm, something NOT evident in 40k lore, models, or in any table top
Hardly fitting for the IG (though they're decent models.... if a bit, um, busty... for Inquisitorial retinues and other ad-hoc troops). If you want to fit these models into, say, a Cadian regiment, you've got a lotta work ahead of you.
But yeah, standard IG is Cadians, and it should have a bunch of Lt-Mira-lookalikes strewn in, especially given that the fluff already points out they're supposed to be there.
Sidenote: I wonder if "Xenonian" is connected to "Xenan", the homeworld of the Last Chancers' Warrior Woman.
Just don't think I can contribute anything ... the Dark Age of Technology isn't really my specialty, and the few things that sprang to mind (Graviton Gun, Vortex Grenade) you've already listed. That aside I could only think of Terraforming which seems to have become something of a lost art by "now" (M41), too.
Maybe I recall some more stuff later, but I don't think I've read much sources where it (DAoT stuff) would show up.
Interesting thread, by the way - will revisit it and take some more time to read the descriptions later as it seems to be inspiring stuff.
Super Ready wrote: I think a lot of people get suckered into their own trap with this one. Space Marines are also sexually inactive and monastic in EXACTLY the same way that Sisters are... and I'm not seeing the chastity belt thing if I'm honest. So why is it ok for Marines to be repressed and not Sisters? Sexist. (I jest of course.)
Nope. In fact all the augmentation in the MEHREENZ bodies increase the production of testosterone. Plus, they actually CAN have sex. Simply the majority of them won't. Look at the Space Wolves, sometimes some novel has hints.
"They don't care, they drink, they fight, they f**k".
The 'Wolves have to take drugs in order to suppress their toxin-binding nanotech in order to get drunk. Whether they maintain relations after becoming Marines is debatable, as the average citizens of Fenris cannot reach the Fang, and Fenris has no permanent cities.
Sisters *can* have sex, too. They're not physically incapable of the act. They simply *don't*, as they are both chaste and celibate, as dictated by the strictures of their various Orders ("cleave only unto the God-Emperor")
Sisters *can* have sex, too. They're not physically incapable of the act. They simply *don't*, as they are both chaste and celibate, as dictated by the strictures of their various Orders ("cleave only unto the God-Emperor")
It isn't stated anywhere. It's just assumed because they're nuns.
What people forget is that they are the daughters of the Emperor, unlike real life nuns who consider themselves to be married to God (in a purely abstract fashion).
The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
Super Ready wrote: I think a lot of people get suckered into their own trap with this one. Space Marines are also sexually inactive and monastic in EXACTLY the same way that Sisters are... and I'm not seeing the chastity belt thing if I'm honest. So why is it ok for Marines to be repressed and not Sisters? Sexist. (I jest of course.)
Nope. In fact all the augmentation in the MEHREENZ bodies increase the production of testosterone
Which results in sexual dysfunction, prostate failure and cancer, liver failure, heart conditions, stunted growth in adolescents, and a whole mess of other things. Having too much testosterone is less healthy in men than in women.
There is a lot of weird misconceptions about the so-called "sex hormones".
Super Ready wrote: I think a lot of people get suckered into their own trap with this one. Space Marines are also sexually inactive and monastic in EXACTLY the same way that Sisters are... and I'm not seeing the chastity belt thing if I'm honest. So why is it ok for Marines to be repressed and not Sisters? Sexist. (I jest of course.)
Nope. In fact all the augmentation in the MEHREENZ bodies increase the production of testosterone
Which results in sexual dysfunction, prostate failure and cancer, liver failure, heart conditions, stunted growth in adolescents, and a whole mess of other things. Having too much testosterone is less healthy in men than in women.
There is a lot of weird misconceptions about the so-called "sex hormones".
Yeah, but that would take a lot of testosterone to cause that.
Super Ready wrote: I think a lot of people get suckered into their own trap with this one. Space Marines are also sexually inactive and monastic in EXACTLY the same way that Sisters are... and I'm not seeing the chastity belt thing if I'm honest. So why is it ok for Marines to be repressed and not Sisters? Sexist. (I jest of course.)
Nope. In fact all the augmentation in the MEHREENZ bodies increase the production of testosterone
Which results in sexual dysfunction, prostate failure and cancer, liver failure, heart conditions, stunted growth in adolescents, and a whole mess of other things. Having too much testosterone is less healthy in men than in women.
There is a lot of weird misconceptions about the so-called "sex hormones".
Yeah, but that would take a lot of testosterone to cause that.
It doesn't take much to exceed the body's normal limits and produce nasty side effects. The only way it'd really work for Space MArines is if they had lore stating that Space Marines were inherently unhealthy without a constant stream of chemicals and the like, but while some fluff DOES give that impression, GW and BL especially is very hit and miss with this.
Psienesis wrote: The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
I don't know if we should think real life words apply here. The Ciaphas Cain series shows otherwise. *shrug* One can say that they should all be nuns but some among them do otherwise. Although I seriously doubt them being nuns seeing as we have the Sister Famulous and the fact that they deal with the nobility and even arrange secret liasons for their charges. Its possible that they have had to sleep with nobles so as to do their jobs.
Well if nothing else, we have found a probable reason for why the Emperor approves of the Ecclesiarchy.
I don't think the Emp likes the Ecclesiarchy at all.
The SOB's are the daughters of the Emperor. They were only called brides by Vandire who used them for himself. So I doubt the being sexually faithfull part and instead think it means that they are supposed to be loyal only to the Emp.
What do you guys think?
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Melissia wrote: The Ciaphas Cain series is also from a notoriously unreliable narrator who has a very specific hate and dislike for Sisters.
So you can probably take it with a grain of salt.
Why would he care if the Sisters are chaste or not? IIRC, it was Amberley so said that the SOB's aren't chaste.
The SOB's are the daughters of the Emperor. They were only called brides by Vandire who used them for himself. So I doubt the being sexually faithfull part and instead think it means that they are supposed to be loyal only to the Emp.
What do you guys think?
Nah.
Corpse God x Saint Celestine OTP.
Also, IIRC the Inquisition War novels show that the Emperor does, as of the 41st Millennium, not disapprove of the Ecclesiarchy.
Sisters of Battle being chaste is very problematic. This only goes to reinforce the Madonna-Whore complex. Why should anyone care if they feth anyone? Religious fanatism only goes so far.
The SOB's are the daughters of the Emperor. They were only called brides by Vandire who used them for himself. So I doubt the being sexually faithfull part and instead think it means that they are supposed to be loyal only to the Emp.
What do you guys think?
Nah.
Corpse God x Saint Celestine OTP.
Also, IIRC the Inquisition War novels show that the Emperor does, as of the 41st Millennium, not disapprove of the Ecclesiarchy.
I recall parts of that novel where the Emp said is the current state of the galaxy the only way to save humanity or something like that.
Amaya wrote: Sisters of Battle being chaste is very problematic. This only goes to reinforce the Madonna-Whore complex. Why should anyone care if they feth anyone? Religious fanatism only goes so far.
I wasn't even talking about chastity in specific, myself.
I would say that Sisters are generally just too busy and too secluded for society to bother with that sort of thing in the overwhelming majority of cases. I would also say, and I'm certain this will cause a bit of childishness, that they are likely more likely to find solace in the arms of another Sister than in the arms of an outsider, simply because of the similar experiences, outlooks, and responsibilities they have, along with the fact that for the most part that's who they're around more often than not.
I still think that even then, such a thing would be rare, and it would be carefully monitored by the head of the order to prevent it from getting in the way of their duties.
That said, I do agree that the Sisters being celibate is problematic. Personally, it takes a dump on the fluff of my space marine fan-chapter, in that all the marines are married to sisters. :(
Amaya wrote: Sisters of Battle being chaste is very problematic. This only goes to reinforce the Madonna-Whore complex. Why should anyone care if they feth anyone? Religious fanatism only goes so far.
For thematic reasons, or perhaps to adhere to the standards set by those they take from, out of setting?
Jeanne D'Arc, whom the Sisters borrow from, was chaste, for example.
Thematically, well, a Sister of Battle fan could probably argue that better than I could.
Amaya wrote: Sisters of Battle being chaste is very problematic. This only goes to reinforce the Madonna-Whore complex. Why should anyone care if they feth anyone? Religious fanatism only goes so far.
I wasn't even talking about chastity in specific, myself.
I would say that Sisters are generally just too busy and too secluded for society to bother with that sort of thing in the overwhelming majority of cases. I would also say, and I'm certain this will cause a bit of childishness, that they are likely more likely to find solace in the arms of another Sister than in the arms of an outsider, simply because of the similar experiences, outlooks, and responsibilities they have, along with the fact that for the most part that's who they're around more often than not.
I still think that even then, such a thing would be rare, and it would be carefully monitored by the head of the order to prevent it from getting in the way of their duties.
Basing an entire organization on single person is great and all...but it fails to account for the fact that every large organization has some degree of corruption and that it is insane to expect that everyone would remain upright and pure at all times.
In case you've forgotten....they do have this group called the Sisters Repentia for a reason.
Amaya wrote: Basing an entire organization on single person is great and all...but it fails to account for the fact that every large organization has some degree of corruption and that it is insane to expect that everyone would remain upright and pure at all times.
In case you've forgotten....they do have this group called the Sisters Repentia for a reason.
Oh I have no doubt that at some point Sisters might have broken their oaths, whatever that may be, and indeed that is largely an absolute fact, as the Repentia show. I was speaking in general.
I don't think Sisters are ever explicitly supposed to be chaste, but I can see why some would prefer it that way. That doesn't preclude the possibility of some violating this hypothetical oaths though.
I'm pretty sure that Sisters Repentia are basically sisters that accidentally whipped themselves only 98 times in the morning instead of the required 99, or forgot to pray to the God-Emprah before eating your vegan-burger.
Considering that being a Repentia basically means that you get to run around naked with a giant chainsaw until you die, I'd argue that it isn't really a "punishment" per say, certainly not one fitting the sin of having steamy rage-sex with Calgar.
Yes, Sisters Repentia are those who failed, either put there for their failures by the superiors of the convents, or who put themselves there for perceived failures.
They are at once both holy outcasts, and revered icons, their fervor considered a testament to their faith, their deathseeking nature a sign of their desire to atone for their sins.
It is at once a deterrence, a punishment, and, in their world view, a reward-- because they know that even if they fall from grace, the path they have chosen allows them glory on the battlefield and redemption through service and, eventually, death.
They are at once both holy outcasts, and revered icons, their fervor considered a testament to their faith, their deathseeking nature a sign of their desire to atone for their sins.
And their punishment being fething awesome.
I can sense the in-coming shitstorm, but let's be honest here.
Who wouldn't want to run around naked, swinging a giant chainsword?
Psienesis wrote: The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
I don't know if we should think real life words apply here. The Ciaphas Cain series shows otherwise. *shrug* One can say that they should all be nuns but some among them do otherwise. Although I seriously doubt them being nuns seeing as we have the Sister Famulous and the fact that they deal with the nobility and even arrange secret liasons for their charges. Its possible that they have had to sleep with nobles so as to do their jobs.
*shrug*
The Ciaphas Cain series is also a send-up of the grimdarkness of the rest of the setting. It's an intentional parody/satire done as an in-universe series.
Also as to why they probably take vows of chastity and celibacy? Because Vandire used them as sex-slaves, and during his reign they allowed him to nearly tear the God-Emperor's Imperium asunder. They will not let themselves be distracted from their sacred duties again.
Psienesis wrote: The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
I don't know if we should think real life words apply here. The Ciaphas Cain series shows otherwise. *shrug* One can say that they should all be nuns but some among them do otherwise. Although I seriously doubt them being nuns seeing as we have the Sister Famulous and the fact that they deal with the nobility and even arrange secret liasons for their charges. Its possible that they have had to sleep with nobles so as to do their jobs.
*shrug*
The Ciaphas Cain series is also a send-up of the grimdarkness of the rest of the setting. It's an intentional parody/satire done as an in-universe series.
Yeah I know. Still its a part of the fluff until GW says otherwise.
Also as to why they probably take vows of chastity and celibacy? Because Vandire used them as sex-slaves, and during his reign they allowed him to nearly tear the God-Emperor's Imperium asunder. They will not let themselves be distracted from their sacred duties again.
uh... you have yet to show an actual vow of chastity. Just the word cleave brings this up:
merriam webster wrote:
1 cleave
intransitive verb \ˈklēv\
cleaved or clove also clave cleavedcleav·ing
Definition of CLEAVE
: to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly
So we are at something of an impasse for this one. I have already posted rationalizations above.
They are at once both holy outcasts, and revered icons, their fervor considered a testament to their faith, their deathseeking nature a sign of their desire to atone for their sins.
And their punishment being fething awesome.
I can sense the in-coming shitstorm, but let's be honest here.
Who wouldn't want to run around naked, swinging a giant chainsword?
I would personally prefer the comfort of TDA and perhaps a powerful cannon of some sort so that I may engage my enemies from a great distance instead of relying solely on a constant adredeline rush and zealous faith.
Psienesis wrote: The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
I don't know if we should think real life words apply here. The Ciaphas Cain series shows otherwise. *shrug* One can say that they should all be nuns but some among them do otherwise. Although I seriously doubt them being nuns seeing as we have the Sister Famulous and the fact that they deal with the nobility and even arrange secret liasons for their charges. Its possible that they have had to sleep with nobles so as to do their jobs.
*shrug*
The Ciaphas Cain series is also a send-up of the grimdarkness of the rest of the setting. It's an intentional parody/satire done as an in-universe series.
Yeah I know. Still its a part of the fluff until GW says otherwise.
Also as to why they probably take vows of chastity and celibacy? Because Vandire used them as sex-slaves, and during his reign they allowed him to nearly tear the God-Emperor's Imperium asunder. They will not let themselves be distracted from their sacred duties again.
uh... you have yet to show an actual vow of chastity. Just the word cleave brings this up:
merriam webster wrote: 1 cleave intransitive verb \ˈklēv\ cleaved or clove also clave cleavedcleav·ing
Definition of CLEAVE : to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly
So we are at something of an impasse for this one. I have already posted rationalizations above.
And with your definition, I would pose that, if a Sister is emotionally involved with another person, male or female, then she cannot "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", then, can she?
They are at once both holy outcasts, and revered icons, their fervor considered a testament to their faith, their deathseeking nature a sign of their desire to atone for their sins.
And their punishment being fething awesome.
I can sense the in-coming shitstorm, but let's be honest here.
Who wouldn't want to run around naked, swinging a giant chainsword?
I would personally prefer the comfort of TDA and perhaps a powerful cannon of some sort so that I may engage my enemies from a great distance instead of relying solely on a constant adredeline rush and zealous faith.
Power armor is like a second skin, including, in many cases, being linked to your nervous system via a cerebral plug.
Hell, cerebral plugs are actually considered cheap in-universe according to FFG (cheaper and more common than a lasgun), there's really no reason why most powered armor wouldn't include them.
They're nuns. Being chaste goes with being a nun. And it is better that way, really it is. 99% of time when someone wants Sisters not to be chaste it is because of their marine/SoB porn fantasies.
Amaya wrote: Yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with them being people having mortal desires.
I could agree with you if everyone voicing those opinions was penning such smut.
To be fair, although I think he's exaggerating (it's a high number to be sure, but ninety nine percent is harsh), he still didn't say everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you really believe every nun who has ever lived has been chaste her entire life?
Of course not, nor I expect every Sister to be either. I am merely referring to the rules and practices of the Orders. Some individual Sisters obviously break some of the rules, that's how we get Repentias.
Amaya wrote:Sisters of Battle being chaste is very problematic. This only goes to reinforce the Madonna-Whore complex. Why should anyone care if they feth anyone? Religious fanatism only goes so far.
*cough* Feth was explicitly stated to be the name of a Tanith tree-spirit, and not a euphemism for (In Gaunt's words) "Uh... that."
I don't recall the 'cleave only to the God-emperor' line, but it is nearly midnight. Could you pass us a page reference for the tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies please?
Amaya wrote:Sisters of Battle being chaste is very problematic. This only goes to reinforce the Madonna-Whore complex. Why should anyone care if they feth anyone? Religious fanatism only goes so far.
*cough* Feth was explicitly stated to be the name of a Tanith tree-spirit, and not a euphemism for (In Gaunt's words) "Uh... that."
I don't recall the 'cleave only to the God-emperor' line, but it is nearly midnight. Could you pass us a page reference for the tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies please?
I don't recall the 'cleave only to the God-emperor' line, but it is nearly midnight. Could you pass us a page reference for the tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies please?
o.0
That's a... pretty superhuman feat. You should be canonized for that alone.
... and I'm at work at the moment, and will be for a couple hours yet. If I remember to do so by the time I get off work, I will come back and post them but... no guarantees.
Furyou Miko wrote: tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies
Hey, it's good to meet another person like that!
Jokes aside, I view Sisters of Battle as much more militant than many people on this forum seem to.
Amaya wrote: Oh wow, it's not like I didn't already say that a page or so before this...
So we agree then?
Yes.
Melissia wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies
Hey, it's good to meet another person like that!
Jokes aside, I view Sisters of Battle as much more militant than many people on this forum seem to.
I think you mean militarized. They can't really get much more militant short of serving in combat 24/7/365.
I feel no need to separate my love of Space Marines from my love of machismo-fuelled homoeroticism. The latter enhances the former, and is indeed a fundamental aspect of Space Marine fluff.
I feel no need to separate my love of Space Marines from my love of machismo-fuelled homoeroticism. The latter enhances the former, and is indeed a fundamental aspect of Space Marine fluff.
In the distance, a wild yaoi fangirl squeals with ecstatic glee.
One must also think of the incest-ridden undertones of the Primarch/Astartes relationship.
Spoiler:
Magnus the Red stood directly below the device, looking up through the crystal into the night sky directly above the centre of Occullum Square.
He was naked but for a loincloth, his flesh bare to the elements and gleaming with oil.
Ahriman watched as Amon massaged a mixture of sandalwood, jasmine and benzoin oil into Magnus’ flesh. Uthizzar scraped the excess oil from
the primarch’s body with a bone-bladed knife as Auramagma held a smoking censer that filled the air with the fragrance of cinquefoil. Phael Toron
stood next to Ahriman, his body language stiff and awkward.
Grey Templar wrote: If being a women would make the character better and improve the story, hell yeah make the character a women.
This "All characters should be male unless otherwise needed" attitude of yours is WHY there's so much bad writing to begin with-- the writers with that attitude only consider women in terms of how they're different from men, instead of considering women as their own characters, as actual people, resulting in bland, unimaginative characters.
It's bizarre and circular logic that's best described as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Forgive them, they're only men with pencils and keyboards. They don't know what they're doing.
Amaya wrote:I'm not sure if I think the facial expressions are endearing or obnoxious.
That one was funny though.
Let me know when you figure it out, I'm still not sure how often I should use them myself. ^^;
Melissia wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies
Hey, it's good to meet another person like that!
Jokes aside, I view Sisters of Battle as much more militant than many people on this forum seem to.
Same - the way I figure the average Sister's day goes is something like
05.00: Wake up and pray.
06.00: Squad-based private devotions.
06.30: Morning run.
07.00: Morning ablutions and Breakfast.
07.30: General Mass.
09.00: Hand-to-hand training
10.30: Prayer session
11.00: Bolter drill
13.00: Lunch
13.30: General Mass.
15.00: Combat simulations.
18.00: Personal reflection and devotions.
19.00: Evening run.
19.30: Evening ablutions and dinner.
20.30: General mass.
21.00: Night combat exercises.
23.00: Evening prayers and Bed.
Void__Dragon wrote:Why separate them?
I feel no need to separate my love of Space Marines from my love of machismo-fuelled homoeroticism. The latter enhances the former, and is indeed a fundamental aspect of Space Marine fluff.
Well, so far we don't have any fluff of Sisters hanging out in bathrobes or oiling each other up, which makes it easier. Plus, I like to keep my hobbies separate. :p
I... can't help but think that some part of Monty Python made it into the design of 40K. Perhaps not the Castle Anthrax and the Sisters of Battle.... though, maybe...
Mainly because there was just one woman, Carol Cleveland, involved with Monty Python. All of the other women who ever appear on-camera are cast *specifically* because they were considered sexually attractive.
.... though, yes, that is rather sexist, overtly so. Especially considering that one of the female characters is simply named, in the script, as "Nude Woman". She does nothing in the sketch but stand behind a counter, naked, and smile.
There is that, yes. I mean, historically, Western society has been incredibly sexist for a very long time now. It's only relatively recently that we've begun taking steps to rectify that.
Psienesis wrote: Mainly because there was just one woman, Carol Cleveland, involved with Monty Python. All of the other women who ever appear on-camera are cast *specifically* because they were considered sexually attractive.
.... though, yes, that is rather sexist, overtly so. Especially considering that one of the female characters is simply named, in the script, as "Nude Woman". She does nothing in the sketch but stand behind a counter, naked, and smile.
She was referred to as Carol Cleavage by other members of the group.
Psienesis wrote: There is that, yes. I mean, historically, Western society has been incredibly sexist for a very long time now. It's only relatively recently that we've begun taking steps to rectify that.
That's something to temperate, as it tends to be a half truth.
In what way has it not been "fully true"? I'm not saying that "every individual of Western society has been entirely sexist their entire lives in everything they've ever done", because social trends and mores are not decided by individuals but by masses.
Western societies have been shaped mostly by Christianity. And Mary is the second most important figure of that religion. While I'm not denying that sexism was always present, our societies were meant to recognize both sex as equals.
Serevor wrote: Western societies have been shaped mostly by Christianity. And Mary is the second most important figure of that religion. While I'm not denying that sexism was always present, our societies were meant to recognize both sex as equals.
..Not really. Take this verse from one of Paul's letters in the NT.
1 Corinthians 11:7 "A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[c] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God."
I should say however this verse is noted to scholars to probably be a later interpolation, that is to say a later addition, but it did find its way into Christian canon and thus has been part of Christian teachings for a millennium and a half. Typically modern Christians ignore this passage or shellac it down in a thorough coating of "Christian apologetics."
I actually cannot find a competing claim in the Bible to support the claim of gender equality, by contrast.
No, Mary is the second-most important figure to Catholicism, and despite her importance, women are still forbidden to hold office in the Church. To the Protestants? She's a minor character that happens to give birth to the Messiah. She has no other role or function.
However, that has nothing to do with the fact that, in the United States, it was perfectly legal for a man to beat his wife well into the 20th century, as in, as late as the 1950s. Women *still* earn less than men *for doing the exact same job* in many industries in the US. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion than men, because there is a fear that they will decide to have children and thus be distracted from the business (though men who father children are not held in the same disregard). Women are constantly objectified by our mass media and popular culture, and though this is beginning to stabilize somewhat (fair is fair, after all), it is still grossly out of balance. Our societies continue to value a woman by how good she looks, regardless of her contributions, or to even ignore her completely because she's female.
Thank God I can.
Ephesian 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.
Ephesian 5:28
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Ephesian 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
EDIT :
However, that has nothing to do with the fact that, in the United States, it was perfectly legal for a man to beat his wife well into the 20th century, as in, as late as the 1950s. Women *still* earn less than men *for doing the exact same job* in many industries in the US. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion than men, because there is a fear that they will decide to have children and thus be distracted from the business (though men who father children are not held in the same disregard). Women are constantly objectified by our mass media and popular culture, and though this is beginning to stabilize somewhat (fair is fair, after all), it is still grossly out of balance. Our societies continue to value a woman by how good she looks, regardless of her contributions, or to even ignore her completely because she's female.
Mary is the progenitor of the Madonna-Whore complex. As all women who are not completely chaste virgins until death are inferior to her, all women must be whores.
Catholicism (and Christianity in general) have rarely actually taught a belief that resembles Christ's message. It was used to brainwash the illiterate masses into doing whatever political nonsense the Vatican or various governments desired. Even many Christian apologists recognize this...I consider myself one to an extent, I will never defend the Church, but I believe that Jesus' teachings were worthwhile and have philosophical and spiritual value despite the misues and abuse of his name.
Well, Jesus was basically the Jewish equivalent of Bill and Ted until his best mates wrote a book about him that made him out to be some kind of minor deity.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well, Jesus was basically the Jewish equivalent of Bill and Ted until his best mates wrote a book about him that made him out to be some kind of minor deity.
Assuming he even existed and isn't merely a amalgamation of multiple teachers.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well, Jesus was basically the Jewish equivalent of Bill and Ted until his best mates wrote a book about him that made him out to be some kind of minor deity.
No Jesus was Jim Caviezel - in my mind he was even a bit blonder...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amaya wrote: Mary is the progenitor of the Madonna-Whore complex. As all women who are not completely chaste virgins until death are inferior to her, all women must be whores.
Catholicism (and Christianity in general) have rarely actually taught a belief that resembles Christ's message. It was used to brainwash the illiterate masses into doing whatever political nonsense the Vatican or various governments desired. Even many Christian apologists recognize this...I consider myself one to an extent, I will never defend the Church, but I believe that Jesus' teachings were worthwhile and have philosophical and spiritual value despite the misues and abuse of his name.
like me...I pick all the good stuff from religions and ignore the bad....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: He was getting drunk and flipping over tables.
And these weren't pathetic light plastic tables oh no, they were heavy fething STONE tables.
Psienesis wrote: The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")
I don't know if we should think real life words apply here. The Ciaphas Cain series shows otherwise. *shrug* One can say that they should all be nuns but some among them do otherwise. Although I seriously doubt them being nuns seeing as we have the Sister Famulous and the fact that they deal with the nobility and even arrange secret liasons for their charges. Its possible that they have had to sleep with nobles so as to do their jobs.
*shrug*
The Ciaphas Cain series is also a send-up of the grimdarkness of the rest of the setting. It's an intentional parody/satire done as an in-universe series.
Yeah I know. Still its a part of the fluff until GW says otherwise.
Also as to why they probably take vows of chastity and celibacy? Because Vandire used them as sex-slaves, and during his reign they allowed him to nearly tear the God-Emperor's Imperium asunder. They will not let themselves be distracted from their sacred duties again.
uh... you have yet to show an actual vow of chastity. Just the word cleave brings this up:
merriam webster wrote:
1 cleave
intransitive verb \ˈklēv\
cleaved or clove also clave cleavedcleav·ing
Definition of CLEAVE
: to adhere firmly and closely or loyally and unwaveringly
So we are at something of an impasse for this one. I have already posted rationalizations above.
And with your definition, I would pose that, if a Sister is emotionally involved with another person, male or female, then she cannot "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", then, can she?
One can be emotionally involved with someone and yet still be loyal to a higher cause or leader, you know.
The thing is the SOB's aren't nuns as far as I see it. Lexicanum describes them as such:
The Adepta Sororitas (also known as "the Sisterhood" or "Daughters of the Emperor") are an all-female subdivision of the religious organisation known as the Ecclesiarchy or Ministorum. The Sisterhood's Orders Militant serve as the Ecclesiarchy's fighting arm, mercilessly rooting out corruption and heresy within humanity and every organisation of the Adeptus Terra.
Also we have the Order Famulous who deal with the nobility and even encourage liasons outside of marriage and gak if need to be done.
I already have rationalizations for it. Although like, Furyou Miko said earlier, can I have reference pages or quotes and such?
They aren't explicitly Nuns in Space- as Melissia's said, their militant side is very Joan of Arc'ish.
But the religious part of them is indeed very nun'ish in inspiration, just like how the Templars are based off of... the Knights Templar during the holy crusade.
Amaya wrote: I would personally prefer the comfort of TDA and perhaps a powerful cannon of some sort so that I may engage my enemies from a great distance instead of relying solely on a constant adredeline rush and zealous faith.
Stop beating yourself up about it. No one's perfect.
Psienesis wrote: Women *still* earn less than men *for doing the exact same job* in many industries in the US.
No, they don't. That's deceptive statistics at its worst: the average income is 75%, yes, but restricting it to any given job, for a given level of experience, produces a number that wavers a few percent above or below even. Educated women gravitate disproportionately towards the worst paid fields and tend to take long breaks in the middle to raise children, and uneducated women are either unwilling or unable to do the higher paying heavy manual labor jobs, being stuck with low paying service industry positions.
.... though, yes, that is rather sexist, overtly so. Especially considering that one of the female characters is simply named, in the script, as "Nude Woman". She does nothing in the sketch but stand behind a counter, naked, and smile.
You realize that's how bit parts are named in scripts, right? A vague descriptor with their gender often thrown in somewhere.
Furyou Miko wrote:It isn't stated anywhere. It's just assumed because they're nuns.
Well, I would say it is a bit more explicit than this... it's actually a huge theme that extends throughout Sisters fluff all the way back to their very first appearance in the original Rogue Trader rulebook:
"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement." - 1E Rulebook
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline, and brook no distraction from their studies." - 2E C:SoB
"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering." - 3E Rulebook (Canoness dialogue, amongst SoB fans also known as the "barbed pen story")
"Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure. There is only prayer and war." - WD #211
BlaxicanX wrote:I'm pretty sure that Sisters Repentia are basically sisters that accidentally whipped themselves only 98 times in the morning instead of the required 99, or forgot to pray to the God-Emprah before eating your vegan-burger.
Yeah, something like that is how I understood it as well. They have very extreme rules and regulations; the Liber Sororitas in WD #293 listed a few of them.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yeah I know. Still its a part of the fluff until GW says otherwise.
"On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books." - Gav Thorpe
Furyou Miko wrote:I don't recall the 'cleave only to the God-emperor' line, but it is nearly midnight. Could you pass us a page reference for the tired and lazy girl who somehow manages to keep her love of the Sisters of Battle entirely separate from her lesbian bondage fantasies please?
Allow me - I believe this line comes from one of the Dark Heresy books ... the Inquisitor's Handbook, I think? It had a couple such phrases for each level of its Sororitas career (which I still deem superior to the BoM version).
Not that you'd necessarily have to miss out on your "lesbian bondage fantasies", mind you.
"Hair-shirts! Naked vigils on cold stone floors! The scourge of prayer and endless mortifications of the flesh! Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?" - 3E Rulebook (Canoness dialogue, amongst SoB fans also known as the "barbed pen story")
I'll refrain from posting any Repentia+Mistress rule 34, though. ;p
I'd forgotten the Barbed Pen story (How did you know I called it that?). Heh, now I'm getting shown up all over the place. ^^; I need a copy of the first edition rulebook, I don't actually have any loyalist references prior to Codex: Imperialis.
Nor have I really looked at the FFG stuff, although I keep meaning to. Dark Heresy's where I flex my AdMech muscles more.
Well, no. I liked Bequin and wished she had a bigger part. >> But still.
You have to be in the right frame of mind to read Enforcer, but Blind at least is good. I keep meaning to read the rest of them but always get distracted. ^^;
For me, it was really,really slow and I just lost interest every time I tried to read it. Which is weird, because I've liked numerous other slow books. But meh.
Serevor wrote: Western societies have been shaped mostly by Christianity. And Mary is the second most important figure of that religion.
My mind.
She is blown.
You mean, all these times that people have use the bible to attempt to try to tell us women to get back in the kitchen didn't actually exist?
Yeah can we not try and defend religion by making things up in here? I'll get banned from this forum as well.
Heaven forbid I start quoting verbatim from the old testament again, facts that make Christians look bad are a bannable offense to some of dakkas devout mods.
But seriously, go read the old testament, Google the American taliban, listen to a devout American senator, or ask the head of the American Catholic league what he thinks about women, and then come back and tell me with a straight face how wonderful monotheistic belief has been for the empowerment of women.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I didn't even get around to Islam. Check the BBC today for a great story about the female squash players, or the recently shot Pakistani school girls first day at school in Britain.
Uh... there's nothing in the quoted bit, or the bit being originally quoted, that is being "made up", simply misapplied, or over-generalized.
And you can make any religion look bad if you try hard enough. Hell, we SubGenii do quite well enough on our own, but we don't care what you Pinks think, because we've "got right" with Bob, and also because you're all sub-Yeti primates, rather than the UberFemme/OberMensch descendants of Yetis like Bob's chosen.
... however, using individuals to paint an entire religion is... just really stupid. If you wanna go that route, then all of humanity is guilty for Stalin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, and the rest of history's despots.
Melissia wrote: For me, it was really,really slow and I just lost interest every time I tried to read it. Which is weird, because I've liked numerous other slow books. But meh.
Inconceivable!
I thought Eisnhorn was the best of all the books, and frankly I have a pretty damn low opinion of 40k novels in general (I think they all suck pretty bad). While not all of Eisenhorn was great, certainly the first third was, and the last third. If you never did finish it, you should try again - I had similar problems with Ravenor, I simply got stuck about 20% of the way in possibly as many as 4 times before I finally powered through it, and it was worth it.
I hated Kara Swole with a passion and kind of pleaded for her death throughout the series, but I thought Patience was a pretty normal person.
@Eisenhorn: The books are slow- they're slow as feth. The reason why they're slow is because they're written in a near step-by-step, hour-by-hour narrative that takes place over the course of years.
That said, the series is my favorite in 40K so far, it is in fact what kept me in 40K after I'd read all the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.
As far as the Capurnia novels go, my problem with the series is that it's too.. .Tolkein'ish. Too much world-building, too much description, not enough actual characters doing things.
Seriously? You hated Kara, but thought Patience was normal?
Patience was a post-traumatic infiltrator with more fake personalities than a schizophrenic paranoid. And yes, I do mean schizophrenic, not MPD. Patience was awesome, and one of my favourite characters, but normal is not on her list of attributes.
What's wrong with Kara? She was an experienced field agent from a relatively normal background who was getting a little old for all this jumping around.
Depends much on what do you mean by "normal female characters".
Traditionally, men are the ones who fight wars, kick ass and die in process;
women are natural caretakers, better suited to rising kids and managing home (and as we know home front is as important as the combat front i any war).
Although you could train female fighting force, on average they would show inferior performance than men one (just as you can train 12 year kids into fighting force). Yes, individual woman can be badass (just as 12 year old can be), but on average they are not. So it would usually be unpractical, unless you are very short on soldiers to man the walls or something.
And mixed fighting forces, while romantic, are complete idiocy; practice shows that in such environment men become more concerned by saving/impressing the girl than behaving tactically/obeying orders. As one (Israely i think) officer said "we can make men stop being human, but we can't stop them being male".
One last thing: feminism doesn't exist in 40k, and would probably be considered heresy.
Furyou Miko wrote: Patience was a post-traumatic infiltrator with more fake personalities than a schizophrenic paranoid. And yes, I do mean schizophrenic, not MPD. Patience was awesome, and one of my favourite characters, but normal is not on her list of attributes.
Yeah, part of being good at your spy job is having fake personalities. =| I'm not sure how that would imply that she isn't normal...? Obviously, "normal" is relative when talking about acolytes of an Inquisitor within the Grim-Darkness of the 41st Millenium, but Patience never wigged out or anything; her temperament and mannerisms were pretty mellow . Framing her ability to act out various personalities on the fly as some sort of dysfunction is like saying the President has an awkward personality because he pretends to give a gak about what everyone says.
One last thing: feminism doesn't exist in 40k, and would probably be considered heresy.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your sexist asterisks and address the only relevant point of your post;
At least two of the High Lords of Terra are female. A Canoness is of equal rank with a Cardinal. There are multiple examples of female planetary governors and Tech Archmagi in the lore. So yes, feminism does exist in 40k, because without feminism you do not get women in positions of power.
BlaxicanX - If it was just part of her job as a spy, then I would agree with you, but it's outright stated that she hides behind fake personalities even when she's lounging around in down-time with nobody around but her fellow acolytes. Kys' childhood abuse has rendered her basically incapable of normal interactions and emotional involvement with other humans. In addition to that, a normal personality is going to get freaked out by some of the stuff that happens to them - Swole, Thonius, Mathuin, Nayl and even Ravenor himself all have freak-out moments eventually... except Kys, and that's because she's fundamentally broken inside.
Furyou Miko wrote: If it was just part of her job as a spy, then I would agree with you, but it's outright stated that she hides behind fake personalities even when she's lounging around in down-time with nobody around but her fellow acolytes
Don't think so. Where can this be found in the books?
I'm aware of her childhood. You seem to be confusing origins with mannerisms, however.
BlaxicanX wrote: Hmmm... how would you say the women were cliche'?
Oh come on man.. A former dancer-acrobat, trained in the use of deadly weapons, regularly described as a voluptuous beauty?
And then we have a psyker with a dark and shady past, rescued from a corrupt orphanage and trained to be an agent?
It sounds like the plot of Le Femme Nikita!
Neither of them are normal, you know.. like young lasses who actually make the decision to join some branch of the imperial forces, and get well trained and are good at their jobs. Like the vast majority of professional female soldiers in reality?
No no, its all sexy, nubile busty beauties and driven, rescued hard asses with dark secrets.
I read plenty of books and comics, both of those characters were cliched, I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all obviously. DA Is easily the best BL writer, and I love David Gemmells endlessly identical heroes, and as I said, Harlon Nayl made me whoop with joy at times, I'm just saying that you know.. they are commonly used fantasy stereotypes for ladies.
Here, Ill invent a none cliched one.
Sara Knaros, was raised in a hive city, always had a somewhat adventurous spirit and wanted to see the galaxy, so she decided to join the PDF, worked her way up from there, and because she had some talent for the job, ended being selected to try out for the Inquisition. She was average at school but good at sports, she would not be considered ugly but has a plain face and a somewhat large nose, she likes walks in the park, comfortable shoes and martial arts.
See.. boring.
Give me a nubile, large breasted killer with a laundry list of emotional issues and a penchant for knife work any day.
I dunno, I'd read about Sara. Sounds like a good starting point.
I'll get the reference on Kys' psychological breakdown later, too lazy now.
I was always under the impression that Kara Swole learned the fighting and deadly weapons bit after she joined up with Eisenhorn's band (she was, if you remember, one of Ravenor's 'inherited' followers).
As for strong female characters in 40k, here's one I'd forgotten and overlooked - Cally Samstag, from Titanicus. I think she's important to the discussion since she's an ordinary woman, a strong woman with leadership qualities but ordinary none the less who is both a complete badass when she does get into combat whilst still being allowed to be a woman. She worries about her husband, fits in time to tease her female friend about her crush and completely fails the Bechdel test whilst still being a self-empowered character who pulls through on her own merits in the middle of one of the worst situations a character in 40k can be stuck in.
I you really think that there is a lack of normalcy when it comes to women characters in 40K fluff, read rynn's world... not only does the queen/ruling figure have feelings for the chapter master of the crimson fists, but she attends to the guardsmen and women protecting her by handing out food, supplies, and words of comfort during dark times. Another woman has to carry he children 20-30 miles whilst trying to keep up with space marines as they move through mountains passes and other harsh conditions and survives the whole trip, even being looked on with respect by her god-like protectors...
there are others out there as well... point is, when GW really got going and started developing a larger fan-base, Im sure they figured out that a world of men wont last long without women...
Void__Dragon wrote: It's still roughly 9,001 times better than anything the codices have put out in recent times.
Agreed. FFG adds in the gak I hate from the codices like the Dreadknight , but FFG doing so doesn't annoy me cause they didn't create the Dreadknight. They have to add it cause GW says so seeing as GW created the Dreadknight.
.
I'm not really fixating. I was just pointing out that even 
Maybe something like;
What have I done?!
I'm my own worst enemy in this war against bad Sisters fluff, aren't I?
I guess it can't be helped then...
