I will say that from a business perspective, assuming that GW has to come out with those DV models in some fashion before they switch starters and that their target audience has limited spending money. You would want to open the gates with the model with bad rules so you would still sell some from wow factor and omgchaos release. Then you would follow with releases of models that people will eventually buy due to good rules or desire such as havocs/chosen and cultists.
This way you get people who would normally have only bought the chosen/cultists to also buy the helbrute due to aforementioned factors.
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
You're making the classic forum mistake of assuming that the people complaining about the former are the same people complaining about the latter.
And, as mentioned, the fact that this isn't an advancement of the story. It's fleshing out backstory... which many of us are fine with, as story. When it comes to adding rules into the game, even some of us who like having new story would like to have all armies with current edition rules before they go adding new armies into the mix.
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
One of the major issues people have with the Crimson Slaughter is they aren't very major at all. Unless I'm missing something, here. The Crimson Slaughter as far as I know is an incredibly MINOR renegade chapter. It's not like the guy's threatened Terra (on multiple occassions) like Shon'Tu has or created the largest astartes vs astartes battle since the Horus Heresy like Huron has. For the most part, they're kinda just... there. They were involved in a search for a chaos relic, got owned by the Dark Angels, and that's... well, that. Even their reason for going renegade, while unique, didn't have anything to do with the larger setting (ANY larger setting) but instead is just their own personal story, as opposed to dragging an entire sector into rebellion or something like that. Unless their codex added something huge (which so far I've yet to hear of), in their current state they might as well just have been someone's non-canon fanfic and it wouldn't have affected any significant portion of the setting (or even really any insignificant portion of the setting) either way whether they were official "canon" or not.
They didn't even interact with anyone BUT the Dark Angels yet. No deals with fallen, daemons, major chaos players, MINOR chaos players even... they're basically just out there by themselves, got thwacked, and that's that. They're the epitome of "filler villain" right now.
Again, maybe the codex will add something? With their current state I find it kinda hard to imagine WHAT it would add, though. It'd take a pretty drastic deus ex to prop them up into something significant in such a short time frame given their current resources (which I'm under the impression is not much), I think.
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
One of the major issues people have with the Crimson Slaughter is they aren't very major at all. Unless I'm missing something, here. The Crimson Slaughter as far as I know is an incredibly MINOR renegade chapter. It's not like the guy's threatened Terra (on multiple occassions) like Shon'Tu has or created the largest astartes vs astartes battle since the Horus Heresy like Huron has. For the most part, they're kinda just... there. They were involved in a search for a chaos relic, got owned by the Dark Angels, and that's... well, that. Even their reason for going renegade, while unique, didn't have anything to do with the larger setting (ANY larger setting) but instead is just their own personal story, as opposed to dragging an entire sector into rebellion or something like that. Unless their codex added something huge (which so far I've yet to hear of), in their current state they might as well just have been someone's non-canon fanfic and it wouldn't have affected any significant portion of the setting (or even really any insignificant portion of the setting) either way whether they were official "canon" or not.
They didn't even interact with anyone BUT the Dark Angels yet. No deals with fallen, daemons, major chaos players, MINOR chaos players even... they're basically just out there by themselves, got thwacked, and that's that. They're the epitome of "filler villain" right now.
Again, maybe the codex will add something? With their current state I find it kinda hard to imagine WHAT it would add, though. It'd take a pretty drastic deus ex to prop them up into something significant in such a short time frame given their current resources (which I'm under the impression is not much), I think.
I couldn't have explained it better.
If the plan was to make them the new "base" renegade chapter tha's a complete lack of inspiration and effort from the guys that wrote their story so far.
Right now they seem just another custom chapter made from scrap by a player that did want it's own warband. Nothing more than that. No reference to any Black Crusade, no reference whatsoever to anything else in the game bar Dark Angels. I cannot see how this "advances the story".
Creating a supplement with a line of BG such as "Huron found a new terrible devastating weapon" would have advanced the story more..
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea that they know the Dark Angels secret, and are wracked by mutations.
Not every chapter needs to have an Ultramarine or Black Legion scale impact on the setting to be interesting.
Aye, they know it, so what? Any attempt to tell the truth to the inquisition will result in some sceptical looks at the heretics police records, their mutated asses and heartily laughed at. Even if a suspicious inquisitor digs into the Dark Angels, they can just tell him, how they kicked the slaughter's ass and they try to get some petty revenge by instilling conflict and mistrust. The Tyranids knowing about the Dark Angels would have advanced the plot further
One of the major issues people have with the Crimson Slaughter is they aren't very major at all. Unless I'm missing something, here. The Crimson Slaughter as far as I know is an incredibly MINOR renegade chapter. It's not like the guy's threatened Terra (on multiple occassions) like Shon'Tu has or created the largest astartes vs astartes battle since the Horus Heresy like Huron has... .
Nothing wrong with an understated background. It makes them far more credible and interesting to me than Shon'Tu gibberish.
The studio should be kept well away from Huron. The Forge World books are excellent pieces of writing and theme, and nothing the studio are capable of producing would add to that background.
Not every chapter needs to have an Ultramarine or Black Legion scale impact on the setting to be interesting.
That's absolutely true.
It's just a matter of priority.
Nobody would have complained if they did already release a supplement for Red Corsairs and at least a generic supplement "Traitor Legions" that contains tactics similar to the loyalist ones. Or if we had a supplement for any of the 4 gods. That's because having a supplement for the remaining 8 traitor legions would be too much, it seems...
For me just knowing from an official source that they WILL release them sooner or later would be enough.
GW merely expand and flesh out the setting. The timeline doesn't advance beyond the upcoming 13th Black Crusade (more or less).
This Chapter having the Dark Angels most darkly known secret is obviously a big deal for the Dark Angels. It's another point of interest in a wide setting.
Obviously it would have been nice to get something different but perhaps GW want to flesh out The Crimson Slaughter for people that bought the starter set and are new to the game. Who's to say that The Crimson Slaughter won't become the next Red Corsairs in terms of leading the Lost and the Damned.
Nothing wrong with an understated background. It makes them far more credible and interesting to me than Shon'Tu gibberish.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your statements. However, my post was in reply to someone claiming they were a MAJOR renegade chapter, which they clearly aren't.
(although my own opinion is that while minor warbands are fine, getting a codex supplement for a minor warband is rather over-the-top. ...not that getting a codex supplement for a single company is any better, mind you, although the Imperial Fists one did at least advance parts of the setting a bit)
THE STORY
In the entire galaxy there is nothing more cursed than a traitor.
Excommunicated, hated and hunted, the Crimson Slaughter turned from the Emperor’s Light and have since carved a bloody trail through the Imperium. But before they betrayed their oaths and turned to the worship of the Dark Gods, they were the Crimson Sabres, stalwart and loyal. This is the story of their fall, as Scout Captain Anzo Riegler, a lone voice of reason amidst Chaos, becomes an unwitting pawn in his Chapter's demise.
Medium of Death wrote: I quite like the idea that they know the Dark Angels secret, and are wracked by mutations.
Not every chapter needs to have an Ultramarine or Black Legion scale impact on the setting to be interesting.
My problem with them knowing about the Fallen is that the entire Dark Angels Legion would be on them in no time, and not just, as in Dark Vengeance, only a small group of Dark Angels/a Company.
but It is a truth universally acknowledged that adding monkeys to things -- ones sex life aside of course -- makes them noticeably better. Even if they be foul xenos ones.
At the risk of damning him with faint praise I've found his audio books/drama to be ... alright -- not bad but not great either.
I'm still wondering when we'll hear more about this Summer Campaign (in terms of leaks).
thenoobbomb wrote:
My problem with them knowing about the Fallen is that the entire Dark Angels Legion would be on them in no time, and not just, as in Dark Vengeance, only a small group of Dark Angels/a Company.
Well the fact that the Dark Angels (and there Successor Chapters) would be forced to hunt them down would weaken the defence of the Imperium as a whole, what with The 13th Black Crusade on the horizon. The might be a small part of the puzzle, but the could play a massive role in the future. Obviously we'll never know because we won't get past that date, but the possibility is there.
reds8n wrote: Pandorax was most enjoyable
At the risk of damning him with faint praise I've found his audio books/drama to be ... alright -- not bad but not great either.
Might check it out, could be worth it for generic background.
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
What story has been advanced?
Yea, this. Please tell us exactly how far into M42 the storyline has been advanced.
THE STORY
In the entire galaxy there is nothing more cursed than a traitor.
Excommunicated, hated and hunted, the Crimson Slaughter turned from the Emperor’s Light and have since carved a bloody trail through the Imperium. But before they betrayed their oaths and turned to the worship of the Dark Gods, they were the Crimson Sabres, stalwart and loyal. This is the story of their fall, as Scout Captain Anzo Riegler, a lone voice of reason amidst Chaos, becomes an unwitting pawn in his Chapter's demise.
That is actually interesting. Though I try to keep a good spirit about all this, if you put "red corsairs" and "astral claws" in the right places, it would fit.
On the "advance the story" thing, I have a point though : Imagine my 4k points ultramarine army, pristine and clean, are suddenly betraying the imperium and going rogue. And become CSM. I know have 4k points of smurf paperweight.
On the "advance the story" thing, I have a point though : Imagine my 4k points ultramarine army, pristine and clean, are suddenly betraying the imperium and going rogue. And become CSM. I know have 4k points of smurf paperweight.
Pretty sure no one at GW is stupid enough (from a business standpoint) to advance the story in a way that an established playable faction/sub-faction (Ultramarines have Chapter-Tactics so they count) gets eliminated, barring the few times they WANT to eliminate a faction (Squats).
I just finished reading the novel "Crimson Dawn" yesterday. It actually rewrites (it's not a retcon since the same author) some stuff established in Dark Vengeance:
Spoiler:
The entire episode on the planet was a Chaos trick. There was a fake Inquisitor who sent out a distress signal and various chapters (Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and the Dark Angels' Deathwing) pledged aid, but withdrew once the Crimson Sabres committed their entire chapter (Master Gabriel of the Deathwing refers to them as "base curs" and "renegades"). They arrive on the world and find the wreckage of an Imperial Chimaera with the corpses of a squad of Stormtroopers that have been there for decades. They witness what looks like a Chaos ritual that's led by what appears to be a Tzeentch daemon (Bird-skull, robe that changes colors constantly) and only after killing people realize that they've actually slaughtered villagers celebrating Imperial saints - the daemon repeatedly made them see attacking cultists when they were really villagers fleeing in terror, causing the Crimson Sabres to slaughter "enemies" mercilessly. This is what haunts them, and they banish the daemon and burn the corpses to hide all evidence, and go into the Warp to figure out how to atone for what they've done. The book ends with the implication that they are now haunted by these ghosts and the ghosts can possess them, as they are in the Warp trying to figure out what they need to do.
DIFFERENCES FROM DARK VENGEANCE So the entire fall from grace was part of a Chaos trick, and there was no curse given to them for killing cultists, they are basically haunted by innocent people that they were tricked into murdering in cold blood. An underlying theme of the novel is that "change is coming" - Scout Sergeant Riegler gets promoted to Captain, Captain Kranon (the future Helbrute) gets thrown in jail for "cowardice" because for three days the others couldn't reach him, and the Chapter themselves have these visions that make them violent and constantly haunt them, basically like the movie Paranormal Activity.
I hope the codex supplement explains more in depth how they became evil, because right now they're more tragic heroes than villains. They were tricked into committing atrocities, and know that what they did was unforgivable, and are trying to decide how to make amends.
Actually, something being written by the same writer is still a retcon. Retcons written by the same writer can be accepted a bit more easily than ones that weren't, sometimes. Although in the end, at least for me, it depends on how smoothly the retcon was, how necessary it was, and whether the new background is better than the old or not.
Moving along...
So we start with the original fluff which was them being driven beserk by Khorne in part due to their own fault (their own bloodlust and savagery causing them to slaughter everything so mercilessly that Khorne took notice). They go insane because the voices won't leave them alone.
Now instead they were still apparently savage enough that the other marine chapters withdrew rather than fight alongside them, but they were tricked by Tzeentch and feel sorry about the people they killed. So far it seems implied they go insane from the sheer guilt from the voices.
Meanwhile the summer campaign paints them as devout loyal followers of Chaos trying to enlighten mankind to follow its true natural masters. The new retconned version goes against this even more than the original did!
............sheez.
By itself I think the retconned version could have been pretty good. For a warband getting its own codex though, so far it seems to spit in the face of anyone who wanted a warband that's like, actually loyal and sincere in its belief of Chaos (which, IMHO, probably constitutes most players since that lets them feel more like winners rather than duped losers).
TiamatRoar wrote: Actually, something being written by the same writer is still a retcon. Retcons written by the same writer can be accepted a bit more easily than ones that weren't, sometimes. Although in the end, at least for me, it depends on how smoothly the retcon was, how necessary it was, and whether the new background is better than the old or not.
Moving along...
So we start with the original fluff which was them being driven beserk by Khorne in part due to their own fault (their own bloodlust and savagery causing them to slaughter everything so mercilessly that Khorne took notice). They go insane because the voices won't leave them alone.
Now instead they were still apparently savage enough that the other marine chapters withdrew rather than fight alongside them, but they were tricked by Tzeentch and feel sorry about the people they killed. So far it seems implied they go insane from the sheer guilt from the voices.
Meanwhile the summer campaign paints them as devout loyal followers of Chaos trying to enlighten mankind to follow its true natural masters. The new retconned version goes against this even more than the original did!
............sheez.
By itself I think the retconned version could have been pretty good. For a warband getting its own codex though, so far it seems to spit in the face of anyone who wanted a warband that's like, actually loyal and sincere in its belief of Chaos (which, IMHO, probably constitutes most players since that lets them feel more like winners rather than duped losers).
Pretty much it's implied that they go insane via a combination of guilt over the voices + possession (they are physically haunted) + being in the Warp, although unless there's something in the supplement to explain the transition or it's basically like Star Wars Episode III where Anakin goes from "What have I done?" to slaughtering children in a very short timeframe; it's almost a caricature - We murdered innocent people.. let's kill everything else to help with the guilt!
Right now they don't even seem like bad guys, they seem more like the Dark Angels - they have a dark secret that haunts them (literally in this case) and want to atone for it, but the rest of the fluff paints them as psychopathic killers who no longer have any redeeming qualities. In fact if they weren't Chaos I could see them being painted in that light.
Nothing really wrong with Crimson Slaughter. But with so many other potential warbands/chapters to choose from, its disappointing to see a new group with little fluff and few fans -get its own supplement.
Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Red Corsairs, ANY of the original traitor legions.. every one of those would have sold more books (and models) then the Crimson Slaughter.
Clearly the shareholders have no idea what GW and the hobby even is. Because gaffes like this should never happen. An opportunity to cash in on their fans' interests squandered in favor of a bland pet warband.
Wrecker wrote: How bout we start seeing some chosen? Or havocs even!
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's what I want!
With everything leaking being of the Astra whatever persuasion, I think we're out of luck until closer to the campaign release.
Well...guess I'll have to wait
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sand.zzz wrote: Nothing really wrong with Crimson Slaughter. But with so many other potential warbands/chapters to choose from, its disappointing to see a new group with little fluff and few fans -get its own supplement.
Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Red Corsairs, ANY of the original traitor legions.. every one of those would have sold more books (and models) then the Crimson Slaughter.
Clearly the shareholders have no idea what GW and the hobby even is. Because gaffes like this should never happen. An opportunity to cash in on their fans' interests squandered in favor of a bland pet warband.
Mismanagement, on many levels.
Couldn't agree with you more on that! it's sad, cuz it seems to me, no matter where or who, it always seems to be the case of mismanagement, and lack of knowing their customer base or the little people who make it run.
Don't believe there's any info there that we don't know....
although
Possessed work in a slightly different way for the Crimson Slaughter as well. Rather than representing an unholy union of Daemon and Chaos Space Marines freely entered into, the Possessed of the Crimson Slaughter are those warriors whose haunting daemonic voices have temporarily taken control of their forms. This gives them some slightly different rules, as well as making them more numerous than in a standard Chaos Space Marines warband.
(Anti-)Heroes
One of the great things about the Crimson Slaughter is that they already have a couple of named heroes with miniatures, available in the Dark Vengeance boxed set. As well as new background on these dread champions, the supplement also provides you with new rules in the form of upgrades and relics. Draznicht, Champion of the Ravagers, makes for an excellent leader for your Chosen squads, whereas Kranon the Relentless, fully kitted out with his impressive new assortment of wargear and relics, takes his place amongst the most formidable Chaos Lords in the galaxy.
Don't think there's any new models in any of the pics.
Possessed work in a slightly different way for the Crimson Slaughter as well. Rather than representing an unholy union of Daemon and Chaos Space Marines freely entered into, the Possessed of the Crimson Slaughter are those warriors whose haunting daemonic voices have temporarily taken control of their forms. This gives them some slightly different rules, as well as making them more numerous than in a standard Chaos Space Marines warband.
(Anti-)Heroes
One of the great things about the Crimson Slaughter is that they already have a couple of named heroes with miniatures, available in the Dark Vengeance boxed set. As well as new background on these dread champions, the supplement also provides you with new rules in the form of upgrades and relics. Draznicht, Champion of the Ravagers, makes for an excellent leader for your Chosen squads, whereas Kranon the Relentless, fully kitted out with his impressive new assortment of wargear and relics, takes his place amongst the most formidable Chaos Lords in the galaxy.
Sounds like Gw is trying to get more sales on the DV set... getting rid of starter kits of the old version to make room for starter kits of the new version... 7th ed.
Now THAT is actually a logical step that does explain this uninteresting supplement.
I can confirm that there is no miniature release in the fourth week of March, just Battleground Damokles accompanied by a BL anthology, a Helbrute data slate and a BL hardcover (Arjac Rockfist).They are so desperate to fill the weakly WD that they included a "How to start the hobby" article by Vetock and another one on how awesome a Gandalf miniature is !!
You won't find many months in GW history with only two miniature releases (and one of them getting a Codex for just this model).
Well, I'm kinda excited for a New Special Character. This is the first Supplement to do that right? We know Kranon will have at LEAST 3 Artifacts... I guess around 165-170 pts.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, I'm kinda excited for a New Special Character. This is the first Supplement to do that right? We know Kranon will have at LEAST 3 Artifacts... I guess around 165-170 pts.
According to Black Library themselves, the 'special character' is going to work pretty much as it does in the Tau Farsight Enclaves. They give you a list of the Relics that that character has, and you take him as that.
kroothawk wrote:I can confirm that there is no miniature release in the fourth week of March, just Battleground Damokles accompanied by a BL anthology, a Helbrute data slate and a BL hardcover (Arjac Rockfist).They are so desperate to fill the weakly WD that they included a "How to start the hobby" article by Vetock and another one on how awesome a Gandalf miniature is !!
You won't find many months in GW history with only two miniature releases (and one of them getting a Codex for just this model).
Wow. So perhaps all this IG stuff is further back than we had originally anticipated?
just started reading the new white dwarf the apocalypse formation for knights was ok, still means you have to cart around a white dwarf with you to a game. But interesting they added in a dataslate and battle scroll for exalted flamer of tzeentch, thats a nice touch. so if you like your tzeentch flamers you have a free dataslate.
cerbrus2 wrote: just started reading the new white dwarf the apocalypse formation for knights was ok, still means you have to cart around a white dwarf with you to a game. But interesting they added in a dataslate and battle scroll for exalted flamer of tzeentch, thats a nice touch. so if you like your tzeentch flamers you have a free dataslate.
cerbrus2 wrote: just started reading the new white dwarf the apocalypse formation for knights was ok, still means you have to cart around a white dwarf with you to a game. But interesting they added in a dataslate and battle scroll for exalted flamer of tzeentch, thats a nice touch. so if you like your tzeentch flamers you have a free dataslate.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, I'm kinda excited for a New Special Character. This is the first Supplement to do that right? We know Kranon will have at LEAST 3 Artifacts... I guess around 165-170 pts.
If this one character has three artifacts does that mean I can give my lord three as well?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, I'm kinda excited for a New Special Character. This is the first Supplement to do that right? We know Kranon will have at LEAST 3 Artifacts... I guess around 165-170 pts.
If this one character has three artifacts does that mean I can give my lord three as well?
IIRC the Black Legion supplement has a different wording on the relics so that you can take more than one, hope this one keeps it. My juggy lord would very much appreciate the 2+ sv and maybe the new weapon
Doesn't seem to be any Chosen or Havocs this week. At the local gw I go they said it'd be a silent week. And some kind of book is coming. (Like Damnos.) Either this or next week.
cerbrus2 wrote: just started reading the new white dwarf the apocalypse formation for knights was ok, still means you have to cart around a white dwarf with you to a game. But interesting they added in a dataslate and battle scroll for exalted flamer of tzeentch, thats a nice touch. so if you like your tzeentch flamers you have a free dataslate.
cerbrus2 wrote: just started reading the new white dwarf the apocalypse formation for knights was ok, still means you have to cart around a white dwarf with you to a game. But interesting they added in a dataslate and battle scroll for exalted flamer of tzeentch, thats a nice touch. so if you like your tzeentch flamers you have a free dataslate.
Can the Flamer move and shoot?
Dont think so, no mention of it anyway. But it is now an independant Charector and an HQ choice. (counts as herold) aparently. Dont play daemons so unsure of the relevance of this. its also 4,4,4,4,3,4,3,7,- and 50pts
Helbrutes do work better in pairs, so 3 could be fun. and sells more!
I think one way to fix the Helbrutes would be a re-roll on the crazed chart maybe? That way you might get the result you want instead of becoming a broken target.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Helbrutes do work better in pairs, so 3 could be fun. and sells more!
I think one way to fix the Helbrutes would be a re-roll on the crazed chart maybe? That way you might get the result you want instead of becoming a broken target.
I think the easiest and fluffiest fix is to just give them the Daemon USR.
Kroothawk wrote:I can confirm that there is no miniature release in the fourth week of March, just Battleground Damokles accompanied by a BL anthology, a Helbrute data slate and a BL hardcover (Arjac Rockfist).
rtb01 wrote:Any new models in this week's weekly white dwarf?
Erm ... no.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote:Doesn't seem to be any Chosen or Havocs this week. At the local gw I go they said it'd be a silent week. And some kind of book is coming. (Like Damnos.) Either this or next week.
Absolutely fantastic and cool. I will puke out whats up from what I can recall...
Everyone gets Fear USR
Troop Possessed squads powers work differently (duh). You roll at the start of the turn instead of combat.
Results:
1- You are a beast as advertised
2- Shrouded USR (actually confers to vehicle embarked on too!) like this one a lot
3- Rending USR and wound on three thing as previously mentioned
You can only take Veterans of the Long War on cult troops (zerkers 1ksons etc.... Bummer? lol)
Some awesome Warlord traits.
Can't recall the numerical order and some might be a bit off, but from what I remember...
Hate USR with "always re-roll against Dark Angels
Crusader USR shoot d6 S3 ghosts with -AP at Init 10 in combat! Love it
-1LD bubble to enemies. Enemies taking fear tests from the warlord lose a further -2 LD? for -3 seemingly not that bad!
I think one was just straight up Shrouded or Stealth too.
Wish I would have paid more attention! Sorry gents
Relics are awesome
Skull Hat :
Rage, Furious Charge and Hammer of Wrath
Armor:
2+ and It will not Die USR (cant be taken on prince)
Relic:
Divination to caster (he also cannot add to the deny the witch total)
Some Horrible Crozious:
Same stats as crozious, but confers 6" zelot bubble. Dark Apostle only
Sword:
STR:user AP:3
keep track of wounds dished out in total. Tally em at end blah blah
wound total makes for stacking powers:
1: +1STR
3: AP2
5:+1STR
10: Instant Death USR
Possessed Thing:
Your dude gets all the rules for possessed. Fear, Demon, Fearless etc. Rolls on the table each turn just like possessed do. Can only join units of possessed.
Totally fluffy and thematic. my fav of the bunch.
Won't post points but to be honest... they are reasonably priced and all under the cost of a terminator!
One Chosen squad can be made in to Dranznishichihsihc Reavers...for two melta bombs.
the sergeant becomes him and he gains... Preferred enemy USR!!! Baller for that plasma squad!
CS can ally as BB to "normal CSM"
This book is everything that the basic Chaos Marines Codex is... but better.
No joke. Just better. Totally love it and will indeed buy!
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Doesn't seem to be any Chosen or Havocs this week. At the local gw I go they said it'd be a silent week. And some kind of book is coming. (Like Damnos.) Either this or next week.
Because they don't exist. It's like this rumor has the It Will Not Die special rule, but on a 2+
Against the right people it is and its free no less, just look at those Eldar, IG, and Tau crying in the corner.
Tau I can see, but Eldar usually have psykers with good LD in their squads, and my IG laugh at the idea of taking fear rolls with all the Commissars in the army. IG are dead in assault with Chaos Marines anyway.
Troop Possessed squads powers work differently (duh). You roll at the start of the turn instead of combat.
Results:
1- You are a beast as advertised
2- Shrouded USR (actually confers to vehicle embarked on too!) like this one a lot
3- Rending USR and wound on three thing as previously mentioned
Interesting. I've seen either the Rending result or the 3++. Regardless this book sounds like it's going to be pretty awesome and I might just accidentally add some possessed for fun to my army. Though one thing I wish would have happened in this book was something to make Hellbrutes better.
Not really sure what's "better" about this book over normal CSM.. I mean it's not like possessed are really useful due to their points cost, and random abilities is a hindrance.
However, depending on the exact rule.. could be useful to ally a sorcerer with the divination relic, then just use normal CSM so you have access to the axe of blind fury
Well certainly "better" is always a matter of opinion haha and I for one feel optimistic about the book, in that I feel the relics are superior in this book and I like the warlord table a little bit more.
The possessed being troops and the Fear USR inclusion help stack my opinion, in that, the book has everything the normal book does but these two additions are added gratis. No price paid further!
(Yes I know you "lose" special characters, but as I am not a user of them I personally don't miss out on them!)
Special Rules
All models in the Crimson Slaughter Detachment have Fear.
Crimson Slaughter can ally with as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines
Choose one unit of Chosen to be upgraded at +10pts. Gain preferred enemy.
Possessed are Troops. Roll a d3 at the start of the CS players turn.
1: Unit and Vehicle if embarked are shrouded
2: Unit type becomes Beast
3: Gain a 3+ invul save and rending
Warlord Traits
1. Warlord and unit gain hate, extra bonus's against Dark Angels
2. All enemy units within 12" of warlord suffer a -2 to fear tests
3. Warlord has Rage and Furious Charge, but must charge attempt to assault if within 12"
4. Warlord and unit gain Crusader
5. Enemy models in base contact with Warlord take d6 S3 ap hits at the beginning of each assault phase
6. Warlord has shrouded
Relics
1. Replaces a powermaul on a Dark Apostle S +2 AP4 Concussive and all CS units in 6" gain Zealot
2. Soul Siphon gains powers based off of enemy models removed in close combat. Effects last the rest of the game 1. +1S 3. AP 2 5. +1S 10. Instant Death
3. Furious charge, Hamer of Wrath and rage
4. Gain Divination and can re-roll failed psychic tests. No Deny the Witch bonus's
5. Cannot be taken by a Daemon Prince. Gains 2+ save and it will not die
6. Gain Daemon, Fearless, and fleet, and gains the Crimson Slaughter possessed mutation-roll a d3.
I think all these rules you mentioned are interesting, possessed table roll looks good, though not a MUST take. Chosen rule is nice. Warlord traits are cc oriented which is good but not awesome. Relics seem to be good overall. Divination/possession relic look more than good. I don't think though this codex will be used as a main army. They would be better as allies. And this is also more realistic. Maybe they can be a good small addition to my CD army. Btw we can't be sure for the hellbrute until we see the rest codex, or the dataslate if there will be one. Let's wait then.. =)
Dunno. Sounds somehow better to me, than say the Black Legion Supplement. Could have used 1-2 special units or something, maybe another special character.
l0k1 wrote: All models in the Crimson Slaughter Detachment have Fear.
Whoah, whoah, whoah! Back up there, buddy! You're telling me that when facing off against their bitter enemy, Legio I Dark Angels, the Crimson Slaughter will cause FEAR?! How on earth is the DA player expected to pull a win? You'd think GW suddenly started to hate on Space Marines and is handing out crutches to the bad guys! Man, it's good to be a CSM player, we get all the cool rules, like Fear or Soul Blaze!
At least it's the Crimson Slaughter, a warband that don't see themselves as followers of Chaos, that are so grossly misshapen that they strike fear into Imperials, and not the Word Bearers, a legion known for willingly giving up their own bodies for daemons to inhabit and disfigure. At least that's one thing that the GW Studio Team got right!
The relics are all pretty darn good, and the warlord traits aren't half bad either. If the had dropped the base cost of Possessed a few points then they might be worth looking into.
l0k1 wrote:
All models in the Crimson Slaughter Detachment have Fear.
Woo!
What is really going to blow your mind is if you give them MoN and the Icon of Despair, they get double Fear!!!!
Everything is absolutely useless from a competitive point of view, with the exception of relics 4, 5 and 6.
A Sorcerer with Divination is a good addition to any army, especially if allows to re-roll psychic tests, thus allowing you to save 15 points of Spell Familiar.
2+ Armor and It Will Not Die is an awesome relic to give to the standard Nurgle Biker Lord:
PF, LC, MoN, Bike, 2+ Armor, SoC:
so you end up with: T6 W3 2+/4++ and It Wil Not Die. Very tough to kill with the already wonderful damage output (if compared to point cost), I'll definitely try that Just a shame that my black legion colour scheme doesn't fit very well with the "Crimson" part of the name :p
Are there any downsides to playing this army (other than lack of SC's, which I don't consider a flaw with CSM, and loss of Black Mace) instead of vanilla CSM? Because I don't see any. The Warlord table is about on par or better and the relics are simply better (divination!).
-DE- wrote: Whoah, whoah, whoah! Back up there, buddy! You're telling me that when facing off against their bitter enemy, Legio I Dark Angels, the Crimson Slaughter will cause FEAR?! How on earth is the DA player expected to pull a win? You'd think GW suddenly started to hate on Space Marines and is handing out crutches to the bad guys! Man, it's good to be a CSM player, we get all the cool rules, like Fear or Soul Blaze!
At least it's the Crimson Slaughter, a warband that don't see themselves as followers of Chaos, that are so grossly misshapen that they strike fear into Imperials, and not the Word Bearers, a legion known for willingly giving up their own bodies for daemons to inhabit and disfigure. At least that's one thing that the GW Studio Team got right!
You just broke my cynicism detector.
Well done.
l0k1 wrote: What is really going to blow your mind is if you give them MoN and the Icon of Despair, they get double Fear!!!!
OMG! Double Fear. That's like... twice the Fear! Good God. And people complain about Taudar armies and 2++ saves when there's an army that can do the double Fear combo? Crazy!
Kosake wrote: Dunno. Sounds somehow better to me, than say the Black Legion Supplement. Could have used 1-2 special units or something, maybe another special character.
I am just talking personally. I am all for enhancing Chosen, they are pretty much my fav unit, but no VOTLW? Boo. Possessed, meh, don't like them. I prefer CSM with low mutation/possession count.
Love the Soul Siphon weapon. Won't be shelling out for the 'dex though - just too expensive (+ I'd have to buy more CSM which I don't want to as I'm trying to build an HH army).
Its so sad. If they had just said all possesses = beasts 100% of the time, I'd consider this book a great success. But hey arbitrarily random is fun in a game of strategy and tactics. Just as much fun as the dreaded doubl3 fear build.
I can totally see allying an alleged Crimson Slaughter Sorc (in fact painted exactly as the rest of my army) with the Divination artefact, and one of my Noise Marine squads (the one with no upgrades) acting as black-and-pink vanilla CSM to constitute the required 1 Troops choice.
Actually this sounds like a straight up upgrade for my softy Flawless Host list. I don't have to change anything but I get free Fear, the one unit of Possessed I field moves to Troops, and I get a worthwhile Warlord table. Not much of an upgrade, but certainly an upgrade. No downside.
You lose out on probably 2 of the best weapons in the game. The 2+ relic looks awesome but without being able to use the black mace (which I have found to be much better than the LC + PF combo) or the AoBF I don't see much use for it. Plus spawn are supposed to take your wounds anyway.
I also do not like paying for divination at all. It just seems wrong...
Possessed are still as bad as ever, people are just being delusional.
The warlord traits look slightly better, but not enough to make this worth it.
Free fear? Most things not immune to fear will fold in combat anyway, if you can get there...
Many people don't take an expensive HQ and instead prefer a naked Sorcerer, so lack of melee artifacts doesn't impact them. Apart from that, you get a slightly better Warlord table, which isn't much, but it's better, and free Fear, which might not be much, but might come into play and give you a minor edge. You also get Divination, though how playable the artifact is depends on its price. All these factors considered, Crimson Slaughter comes out on top of CSM, if ever so slightly. It's not much, but it is something, so I see no reason not to play Crimson Slaughter unless you need the Axe or the Mace.
-DE- wrote: Many people don't take an expensive HQ and instead prefer a naked Sorcerer, so lack of melee artifacts doesn't impact them. Apart from that, you get a slightly better Warlord table, which isn't much, but it's better, and free Fear, which might not be much, but might come into play and give you a minor edge. You also get Divination, though how playable the artifact is depends on its price. All these factors considered, Crimson Slaughter comes out on top of CSM, if ever so slightly. It's not much, but it is something, so I see no reason not to play Crimson Slaughter unless you need the Axe or the Mace.
I've never used the Mace on anything but a Flying Daemon Prince, and Daemon Princes aren't able to take the +2 armor relic anyway, so that works out if I wanted to take CS for some relics and regular codex for another.
The whole allying-with-yourself thing is pretty sweet in that regard.
Also, Cultists charging into combat and causing fear makes me laugh, a lot.
The only thing in this book that stands out to me is giving possessed 'beasts'. but really, they are still going to deep strike and take intercept then overwatch fire - or cross the table in armor. so the 12" isnt going to be gamechanging. Cool for all the Crimson Slaughter fans out there though. >_<
Kosake wrote: Dunno. Sounds somehow better to me, than say the Black Legion Supplement. Could have used 1-2 special units or something, maybe another special character.
I am just talking personally. I am all for enhancing Chosen, they are pretty much my fav unit, but no VOTLW? Boo. Possessed, meh, don't like them. I prefer CSM with low mutation/possession count.
New artifacts and warlord traits, seem OK.
Still not tempted.
In some ways it does "sound better", but honestly I love the BL supplement, chosen as troops! I mean come on VOTLW rule is pretty sweet especially if you get the war lord trait preferred enemy. I took out 5 salamander termies with thunder hammer and storm shield on a charge! Think of it this way a squad of chosen with VOTLW, MoN, that trait I mentioned earlier, 4 plasma guns or lighting claws, a melta gun and lighting claw for the champ.... Boom easy day and I think it comes out to 305 for ten dudes, sure you could do plague marines with two plasma guns, but again, in my opinion it's way better. 2 attacks base is huge! And that hand of darkness is freaking sweet! I have it on a deamon prince of Tzeencth, and I call him my flying purple people eater! Let's just say I have had no bad days with the black legion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps forgot to mention that vulkan he'stan was in the termie squad
Lvl 3 Divination Sorcerer for 135 points (60+50+25) is pretty sweet, Relic has built in familiar.
Divination is *huge* for CSM.
The strength of this book is allying to your standard CSM force.
You're adding a Divination guy, another Heldrake, and a tax of 10 cultists.
Prescience, Forewarning, Scryers Gaze, Precognition, Misfortune, and perfect timing are all potentially amazing for CSM. Foreboding is just... okay. Kindof really good.
loreweaver wrote: Lvl 3 Divination Sorcerer for 135 points (60+50+25) is pretty sweet, Relic has built in familiar.
Divination is *huge* for CSM.
The strength of this book is allying to your standard CSM force.
You're adding a Divination guy, another Heldrake, and a tax of 10 cultists.
Prescience, Forewarning, Scryers Gaze, Precognition, Misfortune, and perfect timing are all potentially amazing for CSM. Foreboding is just... okay. Kindof really good.
Yeah, most of the abilities are fairly pointless and the warlord traits are pretty bad. This will be an ally dex with Divination sorcerorer that adds +1 Cultist and +1 FA and HS to your army. Don't even need to know the other rules! Just like how Black Legion is "Gain additional FOC slots, and must buy Votlw for HQ". That's all you need to know.
Yeah, most of the abilities are fairly pointless and the warlord traits are pretty bad. This will be an ally dex with Divination sorcerorer that adds +1 Cultist and +1 FA and HS to your army. Don't even need to know the other rules! Just like how Black Legion is "Gain additional FOC slots, and must buy Votlw for HQ". That's all you need to know.
I'd totally whip out a unit of Possessed for a beer and pretzels game. It's only 80pts more tax than 10 cultists.
I wonder if CS Helbrutes get free fear. Lookout for those beasts, they suck marginally less.
Kosake wrote: Dunno. Sounds somehow better to me, than say the Black Legion Supplement. Could have used 1-2 special units or something, maybe another special character.
I am just talking personally. I am all for enhancing Chosen, they are pretty much my fav unit, but no VOTLW? Boo. Possessed, meh, don't like them. I prefer CSM with low mutation/possession count.
New artifacts and warlord traits, seem OK.
Still not tempted.
In some ways it does "sound better", but honestly I love the BL supplement, chosen as troops! I mean come on VOTLW rule is pretty sweet especially if you get the war lord trait preferred enemy. I took out 5 salamander termies with thunder hammer and storm shield on a charge! Think of it this way a squad of chosen with VOTLW, MoN, that trait I mentioned earlier, 4 plasma guns or lighting claws, a melta gun and lighting claw for the champ.... Boom easy day and I think it comes out to 305 for ten dudes, sure you could do plague marines with two plasma guns, but again, in my opinion it's way better. 2 attacks base is huge! And that hand of darkness is freaking sweet! I have it on a deamon prince of Tzeencth, and I call him my flying purple people eater! Let's just say I have had no bad days with the black legion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps forgot to mention that vulkan he'stan was in the termie squad
Except that's really, really expensive and not that great.
WayneTheGame wrote: Since I'm now a fan of the Crimson Slaughter, I'm digging this.
You're not allowed to like it in this thread. The Cabal of the 3.5 Codex has decreed the groupthink to be anything that doesn't include Legion rules to be worthy of only scorn.
Despite mediocre things such as "everything gets fear" and possessed as troops, I actually really like this supplement. The artifacts are all good and the warlord traits are decent. I still wish this would have been a supplement about one of the traitor legions though. I wonder if GW will change the fear rule if the rumors about the summer rule book update are true.
I'm sorry to say this, but I'll be antagonistic towards anything Chaos until they make Legion stuff. Maybe its petty and immature, but that's how it is for me.
WayneTheGame wrote: Since I'm now a fan of the Crimson Slaughter, I'm digging this.
You're not allowed to like it in this thread. The Cabal of the 3.5 Codex has decreed the group think to be anything that doesn't include Legion rules to be worthy of only scorn.
Right, but whats the likely hood of actually getting chaos legion traits like C:SM, by now slim at best. I guess later down the road in HH there might be something like that, but can you expect the regular GW staff to give Chaos some actual love?
P.S. I agree the CS supplement sounds like a counts-as Word Bearers.
l0k1 wrote: So does that mean Krannon has a profile in the codex?
Take a gander at the supplement's preview on the Black Library website. It seems that Kranon is equipped with 3 artefacts, plus a Plasma Pistol and SoC.
l0k1 wrote: So does that mean Krannon has a profile in the codex?
Take a gander at the supplement's preview on the Black Library website. It seems that Kranon is equipped with 3 artefacts, plus a Plasma Pistol and SoC.
I saw that, but I was curious if he had his own entry/stat line/ point cost, or if it was more along the lines of "Hey, here are the weapons/relics Krannon uses, now just use the base Lord profiles and upgrades.
haroon wrote: So are the possessed in this codex mind possessed only and therefor modeled without mutations? or do they have mutations like normal possessed csm?
They're the good ol' Possessed Chaos Space Marines, complete with wings, horns, talons and tentacles.
l0k1 wrote: So does that mean Krannon has a profile in the codex?
No but it tells you what to take to build him. He's a Chaos Lord with Blade of Relentless (Soul Siphon blade), Daemonheart (2+ Armour + IWND), The Slaughterer's Horns (Furious Charge, HoW, Rage), Sigil of Corruption and a Plasma Pistol.
I have to say, as interesting as some of the Artifacts and rules are I'm really liking the fluff more than I expected. I really like the full on vendetta with the Dark Angels and Fabius Bile showing up to provide the newly Renegade Crimson Slaughter with tech to clone organs in exchange for their still loyal prisoners. Though I have to say I'm a big fan of Fabius Bile as it is so I can't be considered an objective source.
Kosake wrote: Dunno. Sounds somehow better to me, than say the Black Legion Supplement. Could have used 1-2 special units or something, maybe another special character.
I am just talking personally. I am all for enhancing Chosen, they are pretty much my fav unit, but no VOTLW? Boo. Possessed, meh, don't like them. I prefer CSM with low mutation/possession count.
New artifacts and warlord traits, seem OK.
Still not tempted.
In some ways it does "sound better", but honestly I love the BL supplement, chosen as troops! I mean come on VOTLW rule is pretty sweet especially if you get the war lord trait preferred enemy. I took out 5 salamander termies with thunder hammer and storm shield on a charge! Think of it this way a squad of chosen with VOTLW, MoN, that trait I mentioned earlier, 4 plasma guns or lighting claws, a melta gun and lighting claw for the champ.... Boom easy day and I think it comes out to 305 for ten dudes, sure you could do plague marines with two plasma guns, but again, in my opinion it's way better. 2 attacks base is huge! And that hand of darkness is freaking sweet! I have it on a deamon prince of Tzeencth, and I call him my flying purple people eater! Let's just say I have had no bad days with the black legion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps forgot to mention that vulkan he'stan was in the termie squad
Except that's really, really expensive and not that great.
Yeah sure expensive but it's well rounded, troop choice/elite. Fire power all day close combat and re rolls....BOOM
l0k1 wrote: So does that mean Krannon has a profile in the codex?
No but it tells you what to take to build him. He's a Chaos Lord with Blade of Relentless (Soul Siphon blade), Daemonheart (2+ Armour + IWND), The Slaughterer's Horns (Furious Charge, HoW, Rage), Sigil of Corruption and a Plasma Pistol.
I have to say, as interesting as some of the Artifacts and rules are I'm really liking the fluff more than I expected. I really like the full on vendetta with the Dark Angels and Fabius Bile showing up to provide the newly Renegade Crimson Slaughter with tech to clone organs in exchange for their still loyal prisoners. Though I have to say I'm a big fan of Fabius Bile as it is so I can't be considered an objective source.
So it's not a dedicated entry, does this mean you can give him marks and give him a bike or one of the other mounts? If so, that might be pretty amazing depending on the cost of all those
relics. A new biker lord setup is starting to form in my head
Kosake wrote: Dunno. Sounds somehow better to me, than say the Black Legion Supplement. Could have used 1-2 special units or something, maybe another special character.
I am just talking personally. I am all for enhancing Chosen, they are pretty much my fav unit, but no VOTLW? Boo. Possessed, meh, don't like them. I prefer CSM with low mutation/possession count.
New artifacts and warlord traits, seem OK.
Still not tempted.
In some ways it does "sound better", but honestly I love the BL supplement, chosen as troops! I mean come on VOTLW rule is pretty sweet especially if you get the war lord trait preferred enemy. I took out 5 salamander termies with thunder hammer and storm shield on a charge! Think of it this way a squad of chosen with VOTLW, MoN, that trait I mentioned earlier, 4 plasma guns or lighting claws, a melta gun and lighting claw for the champ.... Boom easy day and I think it comes out to 305 for ten dudes, sure you could do plague marines with two plasma guns, but again, in my opinion it's way better. 2 attacks base is huge! And that hand of darkness is freaking sweet! I have it on a deamon prince of Tzeencth, and I call him my flying purple people eater! Let's just say I have had no bad days with the black legion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps forgot to mention that vulkan he'stan was in the termie squad
Except that's really, really expensive and not that great.
Yeah sure expensive but it's well rounded, troop choice/elite. Fire power all day close combat and re rolls....BOOM
That'll die as soon as a riptide or Wave Serpent takes a look at them.
Or really anything that can deal with them, popping the rhino loses their mobility fierce and they'll have issues getting up close to do their thing after that, they'll be beaten by major assault, or major shooting.
What is new in the Land Raider kit? Why are they advertising it as a new release? Sorry, dont have the time to read thru 23 pages, so if someone could please explain to me what the issue with this is, I'd be grateful.
That'll die as soon as a riptide or Wave Serpent takes a look at them.
Or really anything that can deal with them, popping the rhino loses their mobility fierce and they'll have issues getting up close to do their thing after that, they'll be beaten by major assault, or major shooting.
To be generalist is to be overexpensive.
Sure, but compared to possessed, I'll take the chosen, and a DP with HoD to instant death the silly riptides!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Arun wrote: What is new in the Land Raider kit? Why are they advertising it as a new release? Sorry, dont have the time to read thru 23 pages, so if someone could please explain to me what the issue with this is, I'd be grateful.
Sir Arun wrote: What is new in the Land Raider kit? Why are they advertising it as a new release? Sorry, dont have the time to read thru 23 pages, so if someone could please explain to me what the issue with this is, I'd be grateful.
Also I assume the chaos bikers used to be metal?
If I'm not mistaken, the only "new" thing for Chaos is updated box art.....
Sir Arun wrote: What is new in the Land Raider kit? Why are they advertising it as a new release? Sorry, dont have the time to read thru 23 pages, so if someone could please explain to me what the issue with this is, I'd be grateful.
Also I assume the chaos bikers used to be metal?
Chaos bikers were metal in 2nd edition. The current kit is the same they've had for over 10 years though, and as with the Land Raider, just new box art to bring it in line with other products.
Sir Arun wrote: What is new in the Land Raider kit? Why are they advertising it as a new release? Sorry, dont have the time to read thru 23 pages, so if someone could please explain to me what the issue with this is, I'd be grateful.
It sounds pretty sweet, but not enough to convince me to get it.
Fair enough. A big part of why I do these reviews is so people can know if it's something they want or not so they don't have to go in and buy it blind. I bought my copy solely to review but it does have me thinking about fielding these guys properly. They may not drastically shift the book with huge changes to FOC or rules that make them a "must have" but they are pretty cool looking, I really dig the fluff and you can really see the flavor in every rule there, even if it's one you don't like. It basically hit all the right notes for me in terms of presentation and design.
Surprisingly, this seems to be the most complicated supplement rulebook to date, just bypassing Iyanden.
What with having:
Restrictions (No Votlw)
Unit changes (Possessed chart)
FoC changes (Possessed again)
Champion Upgrade (Chosen)
Ability addition (Entire army fear)
Not to mention from what's been shown is that four outta six of the relics are usable and useful in some manner, someday they will make a chaplain/dark apostle weapon that takes into account the factor that they already pay the 15 point power weapon tax in their rules I hope, double that for 6" zealot aint worth it.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Surprisingly, this seems to be the most complicated supplement rulebook to date, just bypassing Iyanden.
What with having:
Restrictions (No Votlw)
Unit changes (Possessed chart)
FoC changes (Possessed again)
Champion Upgrade (Chosen)
Ability addition (Entire army fear)
Not to mention from what's been shown is that four outta six of the relics are usable and useful in some manner.
And the long list of alternate missions, all of which look like they could be a lot of fun to play if you want a break from playing the rulebook missions for a change.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Surprisingly, this seems to be the most complicated supplement rulebook to date, just bypassing Iyanden.
What with having:
Restrictions (No Votlw)
Unit changes (Possessed chart)
FoC changes (Possessed again)
Champion Upgrade (Chosen)
Ability addition (Entire army fear)
Not to mention from what's been shown is that four outta six of the relics are usable and useful in some manner, someday they will make a chaplain/dark apostle weapon that takes into account the factor that they already pay the 15 point power weapon tax in their rules I hope, double that for 6" zealot aint worth it.
Honestly it was rumored a long time ago that the supplements would start getting more complex as GW tests the waters with stuff. This one has definitely pushed the envelope the furthest so far, which is good. I look forward to future supplements more and more with every one I see released.
Medium of Death wrote: Nice review. I think I'll pick this up. Agree about that Ectoplasma comment. That would have been sweet.
Thanks! I'm always glad when people like my reviews.
And ectoplasma aside, I'm glad I ordered a physical copy of the book (which FedEx decided I'm not allowed to have until Monday, so I ended up getting the digital version too) because I'm likely to start a little Crimson Slaughter project here soon. It's just a really cool army with really cool background material and a nice, tightly focused layout in everything in there from the rules to the relic lore to the art. I am honestly hoping future supplements are at least this good because this is just awesome and I like it a lot.
codex wasn't bad at all. there is some potential with CSM or BL allies having multiple choppy lords on a variety of platforms. dunno that possessed are going to be a real thing, they're still 26 points each. if they moved as beasts by default, it'd be much more of a legit unit. but it's not totally hopeless. they're either going to be beasts and ignore terrain, able to leapfrog behind/into good cover, have shrouded, or have a 3++. at their cost, sure wish they had grenades too.
gigasnail wrote: codex wasn't bad at all. there is some potential with CSM or BL allies having multiple choppy lords on a variety of platforms. dunno that possessed are going to be a real thing, they're still 26 points each. if they moved as beasts by default, it'd be much more of a legit unit. but it's not totally hopeless. they're either going to be beasts and ignore terrain, able to leapfrog behind/into good cover, have shrouded, or have a 3++. at their cost, sure wish they had grenades too.
divination on a lvl 3 sorcerer is great, too.
Yeah, I agree Possessed didn't get that bump they -really- needed but at least they have a nicer mutations table that really works more in their favor than before.
I'm not mad about possessed not getting that bump. I wasn't a big fan of them really. The real win here is the relics. I think the new relics are better than the ones in the black legion supplement and combined with the base codex you can create a beast of a lord or sorcerer.
l0k1 wrote: I'm not mad about possessed not getting that bump. I wasn't a big fan of them really. The real win here is the relics. I think the new relics are better than the ones in the black legion supplement and combined with the base codex you can create a beast of a lord or sorcerer.
Yeah, the relics are good, the army rules aren't bad and most of the Warlord traits are pretty decent (except Maddening Rage which is fluffy but not good to get).
Still not sure how possessed got any better.. Okay, they can get shrouded on a rhino (which you cant assault out of anymore if its stationary..) or you can get Beasts but then you might have a useless rhino? or you could a better invul which assumes you're in CC already? What if you roll that first?
So they might be able to get to CC easier now, but the OTHER table actually allowed them to *kill* things . Doesn't feel very useful to me, but then again possessed aren't useful either way. I seriously don't get how GW thinks that Chaos = totally fracking random every second of every day. You're telling me minute by minute the Demon inside the possessed changes abilities? It grows huge limbs to move quicker, but then those limbs vanish and it gains rending claws? ..hate..random..charts
Kirasu wrote: Still not sure how possessed got any better.. Okay, they can get shrouded on a rhino (which you cant assault out of anymore if its stationary..) or you can get Beasts but then you might have a useless rhino? or you could a better invul which assumes you're in CC already? What if you roll that first?
So they might be able to get to CC easier now, but the OTHER table actually allowed them to *kill* things . Doesn't feel very useful to me, but then again possessed aren't useful either way. I seriously don't get how GW thinks that Chaos = totally fracking random every second of every day. You're telling me minute by minute the Demon inside the possessed changes abilities? It grows huge limbs to move quicker, but then those limbs vanish and it gains rending claws? ..hate..random..charts
The third ability grants rending as well as the 3++
Actually from my use relying on the abilities in combat was just as meh as it is now, my issue was actually reaching combat in sufficient numbers to actually 'hurt' things.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I own the book too, and I cant see anything that restricts taking Marks or unlocking Cult Troops for that matter...
Un-Fluffy, yes, but certainly on Par with all the other un-fluffy nightmares out there.
CS do work with Cult Troops though, so it's not unreasonable to think they'd attract some stronger members of said troops to lead those factions (marked Lords, ect). As for characters, the CSM ones tend to be all over the place so it's not unreasonable to think they banded together for a mission or two.
Basically what I'm saying is that with Chaos you're a lot less limited in how things go together than some other armies.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Now it says the only units that can take VOTLW, but some Characters and the Daemon Prince get it for free so once again, un-fluffy but is it legal?
Is it "taking" as an upgrade when the rule is listed as part of their default rules?
No. It simply means units who have the option to purchase it, no longer have that option barring Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.
Nobody have an answer to the "Why didn't Possessed get reboxed?" question?
It's giving me false hope of a Chosen or another Possessed kit. Perhaps combined. I'd like somebody to crush that hope, unless somebody wants to send the rumour to Naftka and keep the hope alive, even wrongly, for a time.
Medium of Death wrote: Nobody have an answer to the "Why didn't Possessed get reboxed?" question?
It's giving me false hope of a Chosen or another Possessed kit. Perhaps combined. I'd like somebody to crush that hope, unless somebody wants to send the rumour to Naftka and keep the hope alive, even wrongly, for a time.
A lot of things haven't gotten reboxed (Chaos Vindi for instance). GW might be doing it in waves instead of all at once.
gigasnail wrote: codex wasn't bad at all. there is some potential with CSM or BL allies having multiple choppy lords on a variety of platforms. dunno that possessed are going to be a real thing, they're still 26 points each. if they moved as beasts by default, it'd be much more of a legit unit. but it's not totally hopeless. they're either going to be beasts and ignore terrain, able to leapfrog behind/into good cover, have shrouded, or have a 3++. at their cost, sure wish they had grenades too.
divination on a lvl 3 sorcerer is great, too.
This pretty much sums up the whole thread, there is potential, just depends on your style of play and how you use your strengths and weaknesses to their advantage.
Am I the only one who is surprised that the Crimson Slaughter codex supplement is already availabe in hardback instead of being released digitally and then us having to wait 2 months or so?
I just find it facetious that some of the reboxes are being "touted" as new releases when it is in fact the same kit. Weekly releases sound good, but when it's the same stuff... oh I give up.
Gives them a little more freedom to FORGE THE NARRATIVE.
I hope for a Purge supplement for Nurgle, Flawless Host supplement for Slaanesh, the Scourged for Tzeentch, and. Khorne gets the Skulltakers. Throw in the Steel Brethren and Night Stalkers and there are your" legion" rules.
WarOne wrote: They should of named this Codex: Word Bearers.
I would of be on this like flies on a Plaguebearer.
Codex: Allied Divination Sorcerer
GFT.
That's the only interesting thing in the entire codex for me. It really isn't worth the money in my opinion.
So, a small warband of wanna-be's get a hard cover codex but SOB is still digital only? WTF?
Gives them a little more freedom to FORGE THE NARRATIVE.
I hope for a Purge supplement for Nurgle, Flawless Host supplement for Slaanesh, the Scourged for Tzeentch, and. Khorne gets the Skulltakers. Throw in the Steel Brethren and Night Stalkers and there are your" legion" rules.
Alpha Legion have to use some Loyalist book.
Legions are Dead! (Except for the Black)
Does the fluff on the Crimson Slaughter give a good reason as to why they are possessed heavy? I was thinking when this first was announced that it seemed a bit off to me and would have been better suited to the likes of the Beasts of Annihilation, if they weren't doing Word Bearers.
I hope for the same thing in regards to other supplements.
Gives them a little more freedom to FORGE THE NARRATIVE.
I hope for a Purge supplement for Nurgle, Flawless Host supplement for Slaanesh, the Scourged for Tzeentch, and. Khorne gets the Skulltakers. Throw in the Steel Brethren and Night Stalkers and there are your" legion" rules.
Alpha Legion have to use some Loyalist book.
Legions are Dead! (Except for the Black)
Does the fluff on the Crimson Slaughter give a good reason as to why they are possessed heavy? I was thinking when this first was announced that it seemed a bit off to me and would have been better suited to the likes of the Beasts of Annihilation, if they weren't doing Word Bearers.
I hope for the same thing in regards to other supplements.
It's the ghosts manifesting. It makes a reference to the fact they'll be possessed and mutate and then after the slaughter return mostly to normal. Some of it is actual warp mutations, like their space hulk turned fortress has mutant monsters in the lower levels that they use to test recruits.
Musashi363 wrote: Legions are dead!.....except for Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, partially Death Guard, possibly Alpha Legion and the afore mentioned Black Legion.
The formal organization of Legions are... With many splintered into smaller warbands, but those warbands are described as 100 or so marines and those groups of a distinct lineage are what people want to play. I don't think anyone is saying they want to play a proper legion unless they're talking about FW's HH era setting.
That's a great mini, the look isn't right for Chaos but the attitude certainly is. Oh, and GW, that's what a female is supposed to look like, not a male in drag. Just FYI.
Enjoy the new goodies. There's some potential nastiness here.
USR's
Harbingers of the Tormented- All Crimson Slaughter models have Fear
Slaves to the Voices- Possessed are troops and roll on the following table for their mutations every turn (instead of the one in the CSM book)
1- Shrouded
2- Unit type becomes Beasts
3- Invuln save goes from 5+ to 3+ and they gain Rending.
Draznicht's Ravagers- Upgrade one unit of Chosen to Draznicht's Ravagers for 10-ish points. Unit's Champion (who is Draznicht- the model from the DV set with the power maul) gains preferred enemy. if Draznicht is slain you lose the rule.
Renegades of the Dark Millenium- Only cult marines, minus Thousand sons, can take VotLW.
Relics of the Crimson Slaughter- Characters from the Crimson Slaughter detachment can only take their relics, not stuff from the CSM book.
Allies- Can ally with CSM as battle brothers. Doesn't say about anything else.
Warlord Traits
1- Warlord and units he joins have Hatred. This becomes infinite hatred against DA.
2- All enemy units within 12" have -1 Ld and -2 for any fear tests they have to make.
3- Has Rage and Furious Charge. Warlord and any unit he joins must charge enemy units if they are within 12" at the beginning of the shooting phase and cannot shoot.
4- Warlord and any unit he joins have Crusader
5- Enemy models in base of the warlord take d6 s3 ap - hits at Initiative 10 during CC 6- Gains shrouded.
Relics
Crozius of the Dark Covenant (30-ish)- S+2 Ap4 Melee concussive warp-medium (all friendly units within 6" of the bearer have zealot) Power maul.
Blade of the Relentless (30-ish)- S user Ap3 Melee, Soul siphon (More models, yes models, you kill the different benefits: 1- +1 S, 3+ AP2, 5+ +1 S, 10+ Instant Death)
The Slaughterer's Horns- (15-ish) Gains furious charge, hammer of wrath, and rage
Balestar of Mannon (25-ish) Sorceror only. Sorceror may roll on Divination for powers and reroll failed psychic tests. However the sorceror and any unit he joins can only Deny the Witch on a 6+.
Demonheart- (30-ish) May not be taken by a Demon Prince. Bearer has a 2+ Armor save and IWND.
Prophet of the Voices (30-ish) Bearer becomes a demon, gains fearless and fleet. Now has to roll on the Slave to the Voices table every turn and can only join Possessed units.
Idk if anyone else stated this but I feel I am not the only one with our hopes crushed with the chaos releases. But I am curious about the helbrute dataslate.
I'm disappointed, but not crushed. The new supplement has given us some new tools to work with. Granted, I wished they had given us legion tactics or some new kits (ie Havocs, Chosen), but I'm oddly optimistic for the Helbrute dataslates. Being able to deep strike a group of Helbrutes could be good, one the other data slates mentioned a group of Helbrutes getting a 5+ invuln save. (From the Digital Edition Facebook page)
Musashi363 wrote: Legions are dead!.....except for Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, partially Death Guard, possibly Alpha Legion and the afore mentioned Black Legion.
So... 5 out of 9, which is more than 50% are still there and kicking imperial hindquarters, even by your count.
World Eaters may have splintered as a legion, but the warbands are probably kind of similar - blood for the blood god and all.
Night Lords are afair almost wiped out, true enough.
Emperors children... help me out here someone?
And 1k sons were never that many but what remains is mostly a coherent force, sitting around Magnus and singing "Dust in the wind".
That adds at least another two quite homogeneous Legions, thus 7 of 9. I think that actually does merit them some continuing fanbase...
Musashi363 wrote: Legions are dead!.....except for Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, partially Death Guard, possibly Alpha Legion and the afore mentioned Black Legion.
So... 5 out of 9, which is more than 50% are still there and kicking imperial hindquarters, even by your count.
World Eaters may have splintered as a legion, but the warbands are probably kind of similar - blood for the blood god and all.
Night Lords are afair almost wiped out, true enough.
Emperors children... help me out here someone?
And 1k sons were never that many but what remains is mostly a coherent force, sitting around Magnus and singing "Dust in the wind".
That adds at least another two quite homogeneous Legions, thus 7 of 9. I think that actually does merit them some continuing fanbase...
He was being sarcastic. He's a strong believer in the old Legions.
I thought the Night Lords had reunited (relatively speaking) at the end of their novel series?
World Eaters are sundered but Angron is capable of putting them back together with enough work and effort, if only temporarily. That's what he did for the first war for Armegeddon.
Really, the only Legions that are totally broken up are...
Thousand Sons - after Ahriman's Rubric, most of the Thousand Sons were turned to dust, and those that weren't were sorcerers. Ahriman himself was actually banished from the Thousand Sons, and the remaining sorcerers fractured from there.
World Eaters - simply, they are too eager to spill blood to care for affiliations. They'll fight for anyone, they'll fight anyone.
Emperor's Children - after fleeing to the Warp after the Heresy, they preyed on what slaves they could find, and then each other, and then the other legions all around them, all in the pursuit of excess. There's not much left of the Legion of Emperor's Children. They, like the World Eaters, will fight wherever they can for sensation and spoils.
The rest, to some degree or another, are still together. Yes, there have been warbands that have fractured out, but the rest have a familiar banner that they can fall under, and have some measure of significant strength and presence in the galaxy.
This one isn't, unlike the previous codex supplements that they've put out. Though it's probably just a one off with it supporting the new box art for most of the CSM plastics.
....well, I gotta say, with the codex and novella, GW actually managed to fix almost every issue I mentioned with the Crimson Slaughter being a generic filler villain.
Well, they're still relatively small fry if compared to Abaddon or Huron, but after seeing how they've been so ridiculously fleshed out without having to grow THAT big, perhaps that's intentional. They seem like a case study of "How to fully-flesh out your own special snowflake warband", now.
"Not sure Chicago has enough salt for this after this winter but...
"via Necronspurs2012 on Faeit 212
On tuesday night a few night lord formations were posted on the gw website along with the new guard ones but immediately were taken down."
Might as well get the CSM hopes up and heartbreak over with now."
Formations might indicate dataslate at least? Of course I place almost no likelihood in this being accurate but getting my hopes up and pretending it might be true is satisfying enough for some sort of quick sadistic type excitement fix.
On the old "legions are broken up" chestnut - let's not forget that the majority of Space Marine Legions were many, many times the size of Space Marine chapters (in fact, "Chapter" was a smaller sub-grouping of the Legions, with most having quite a few chapters within. It's completely feasable to have tons of Iron Warrior warbands of 10-100 running around while still having a unified force, of, ooh, say, 15,000 or so Legion CSM.
Azazelx wrote: On the old "legions are broken up" chestnut - let's not forget that the majority of Space Marine Legions were many, many times the size of Space Marine chapters (in fact, "Chapter" was a smaller sub-grouping of the Legions, with most having quite a few chapters within. It's completely feasable to have tons of Iron Warrior warbands of 10-100 running around while still having a unified force, of, ooh, say, 15,000 or so Legion CSM.
Actually Iron Warriors have made themselves a chapter grouping aside from their warband style, aside from the Word Bearers, they are the most organized of the former legions.
Their current organisation is completely non-standard. A Grand Company will often be divided into component detachments led by lesser champions. A tendency towards operating in multiples of three has been noted. While their Primarch remains in his fortress at Medrengard , the Iron Warriors are now almost exclusively led by Warsmiths who command Grand Companies. A Warsmith is a high-ranking leader within the Iron Warriors Legion with control of a Grand Company, seemingly similar to a Chapter Master with several companies lead by Chaos Champions still called Captains. The Iron Warriors are known to pursue their recruitment programs aggressively, notably capturing a sizable source of pure gene-seed from the facility on Hydra Cordatus and using it to hot-house new Iron Warriors using a chaotic techno-organic method.
"Not sure Chicago has enough salt for this after this winter but...
"via Necronspurs2012 on Faeit 212
On tuesday night a few night lord formations were posted on the gw website along with the new guard ones but immediately were taken down."
Might as well get the CSM hopes up and heartbreak over with now."
Formations might indicate dataslate at least? Of course I place almost no likelihood in this being accurate but getting my hopes up and pretending it might be true is satisfying enough for some sort of quick sadistic type excitement fix.
Yeah, Necronspurs is not doing so well on the tracker right now.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Orders are still alive, can we get some Codex: Order of the Ebon Chalice, and Codex Supplement: Order of the Argent Shroud ?
The Sisters of Battle are defined by their orthodoxy. Every Sister in the galaxy is trained at one of two schools, and so are a much closer knit organisation than the Space Marines or Imperial Guard. They should have one army list with everything, not half a dozen each missing bits.
The same is true of orks, but for the opposite reason - while there's a lot of variation between orks, their lack of any real chain of command except "That guy's the biggest, so he's the boss!" means that any combination of orks is valid.
Mayhem pack is as Nusguam says, 3 hellbrutes with IWND and Deep Strike.
They role each movement phase on the crazed table, even if not
suffered a pen/glance.
Helcult: 1 hellbrute, 2 units of cultists. The helbrute does not join
the unit, but if he is obscured by his cultist pack he gets a cover
save (3+), when passed a cultist dies. Also gains rage and a kharn-like
betrayer rule. Makes the cultists fearless as long he is alive.
Last is a formation of 5 brutes, with 1 champion. They can make Look
out sirs to him. Aslong champ is alive owning player can choose what he
wants on the crazed table whenever 1 or more in the unit have a
marker. Affects whole unit.
apparantly some people allready got to download their dataslates and thats what we get.
Still missing some clarifications, like if the dreads forms a vehicle squadron, or if like with all the formations thus far are only needed to be taken at the same time, but can act indenpendantly from each others, in what radius must the Cultists stay from the dread to benefit the rules, does the Alpha dread from the 3rd formation count as a Character?
Mayhem pack is as Nusguam says, 3 hellbrutes with IWND and Deep Strike.
They role each movement phase on the crazed table, even if not
suffered a pen/glance.
Helcult: 1 hellbrute, 2 units of cultists. The helbrute does not join
the unit, but if he is obscured by his cultist pack he gets a cover
save (3+), when passed a cultist dies. Also gains rage and a kharn-like
betrayer rule. Makes the cultists fearless as long he is alive.
Last is a formation of 5 brutes, with 1 champion. They can make Look
out sirs to him. Aslong champ is alive owning player can choose what he
wants on the crazed table whenever 1 or more in the unit have a
marker. Affects whole unit.
apparantly some people allready got to download their dataslates and thats what we get.
Still missing some clarifications, like if the dreads forms a vehicle squadron, or if like with all the formations thus far are only needed to be taken at the same time, but can act indenpendantly from each others, in what radius must the Cultists stay from the dread to benefit the rules, does the Alpha dread from the 3rd formation count as a Character?
the helfist murderpack is a squadron (confirmed in the rules) of 5 brutes, one of which is nominated to be a champion. he gets unit type vehicle(character) and a 5+ invul save. the other dreads in his unit can look out sir! for him if they're within 6". if any of the brutes in the formation get a crazed token and the champ is alive, the controlling player chooses which result he wants instead of rolling, and applies that to the entire squadron. note that the helbrute champ doesn't have the champions of chaos rule; the boon table wouldn't work with them anyway.
the helcult is one helbrute and two cultist squads, all separate units. the cultists get fearless while their brute is alive, and loose fearless when he dies but gain zealot. they don't have to stay near him, but if they provide a cover save to the brute from a firing unit, that cover save is a 3+. if this test is successful, remove the nearest cultist (to the firing model? to the brute? doesn't say, i'm assuming closest to firing unit) as a casualty with no saves allowed. the helbrute gains rage, and any 1's in CC aren't discarded but instead are treated as hits on any friendly unit within 6" of the brute whether that unit is in CC or not.
the mayhem pack is 3 separate helbrutes, each gaining IWND and deep strike. must begin game in reserves. one roll for entire formation to arrive but there is nothing that says they must be deployed together. they roll on the crazy table every one of your movement phases instead of just after they get glanced/penned.
My book arrived yesterday. Must say cracking read. The interaction with fabius and abaddon could lead somewhere later. The battles with the dark angels also just must read. I'm certain based off this book and how it went straight hardback the rumoured summer campaign could see more new plastic chaos kits and more reboxed art for others.
Wyzilla wrote: So, any news if we're actually getting any Chosen models or Havocs at all? Or did GW forget about what Chaos needed again?
The rumoured Chosen could exist. Maybe we just that we have to wait until Supplement Codex: Other Spiky Marines is released. My theory is that GW will update model ranges along with a Codex supplement rather than wait until the main Codex for that army comes around.
I dunno if i said it in this thread or on another board.
In this year early rumors, we had the New Chosens & Havocs with the helbrute and something with cultists that would come along with a VotLW supp and later in the summer or end of summer the Crimson Slaugther Supp that would go out for the Kaizerslautern campaign.
Now we saw that the CS Supp was true, but got out much more in advance that we previously though.
Now it can mean two things, 1) the order of schedule was mixed up, and CS was meant to be first, and the rest will come later this year.
2) we where once again completly fooled by some debunked rumors and CS was just a lucky guess/only part true to give meaning to the false rumors.
Now i tend to believe reason number 1, because it would be a big miss on cash for GW if they don't release a Chosen/ Havoc kit.
And when you look at it, in the last 4 months since octobre/november there was 5 Imperial Supps( Rauhkaan, IF, LotD, Inquisition and Knights) so if they could cram in 5 Imperial Supps, they could still cram in 2-3 Chaos Supps until the end of this year.
it's sad, cuz it seems to me, no matter where or who, it always seems to be the case of mismanagement, and lack of knowing their customer base or the little people who make it run.
