Because you’re making false equivalencies. 3rd Ed and 6th Ed are most alike in that we have a mess of rules from multiple sources, but to categorise the various sources of rules from 3rd Ed (and 4th and 5th) using the modern 6th Ed parlance seems like nothing more than attempt to justify GW’s new methodology.
It's not. It's an attempt to quantify an equivalent level of 'effort' and 'actual gaming use' put into the rules.
Releasing a thin little book that says “Look in Codex Space Marines” for the rules for Tactical Squads is quite removed from a massive hard-back book that says “Possessed are Troops now”. They’re putting out physical and digital Codices for single units now, and that never happened in 3rd Ed. Closest we ever got to this in 3rd was the Assassins Codex, which had 4 units in it. 3rd Ed was a complete mess by the end due to all the various rules from various sources, but it’s not the same as 6th Ed.
But the level of effort involved in 'look in C:SM' and 'Possessed are troops now' is largely the same and they serve largely the same function. They are supplements to the main codex.
Trying to paint me as some evil white knight mastermind because I'm comparing supplements to the mini-dexes is a little crazy.
As to the rest of what you said about productivity, I actually agree. GW has never been so active in their release schedule, and there doesn’t appear to be any downtime (even less now with the shift to weekly releases). It’s just a shame that they’re not putting their productivity to good use with things we actually want, like a Legion book, rather than things no one cares about, like Marine Chapter #47345 turning to Chaos.
Except there's nothing saying we won't get a legion book as that is largely a 'main codex' kind of thing and not a supplement kind of thing. Unless you're looking for 'World Eaters Supplement', Khorne Berzerkers are troops, altar of war, relics and a warlord chart.
I'd debate that as well. The studio's time couldn't have been better used making a Legions of Chaos book that all Chaos players would flock to buy, even if it included a few "buy all our play-sets and toys!" cynical nonsense like letting Iron Warriors take Squadrons of Helbrutes as Troops to drum up sales of the new kit? Nope. Rando Traitor Marines get a whole book to themselves. That's a better use of time and resources.
Sure, it could have, but we're still receiving more full codexes than we were at any time in GW's history. So all of this extra stuff, whether you like it or think it was a waste of time, is just icing on the cake and doesn't detract from the release schedule.
If they didn't publish a single dataslate, supplement, digidex since 6th ed launched, we would still be commenting on how many full codex releases we get and how much more material we're getting. But instead, because we're getting all the extra stuff, you're complaining that we're not getting even more full codex releases? Should they only focus on full codex releases now? You think people are mad now, imagine if they up their current 3-4 full codexes per year to 6-8 full codexes.
edit: to be clear, I'm not saying that a Crimson slaughter supplement is better than a Legions book. I'm saying that the Crimson Slaughter supplement is just a little thing they can produce while they're working on everything else. They're pumping these out because they can do it without slackening the pace of real releases. People are just incorrectly comparing them (supplements, digidexes, etc) to real releases (i.e. full codexes). They aren't the same and have (provably) not reduced the pace of real releases. In fact, real releases have gotten faster now that they have moved to this model.
Theduke07 wrote: I seriously thought this was a joke when I first read it. possessed as troops ? You couldn't write a better joke.
We already wrote several better ones. Pyrovores and heldrakes.
Heldrakes are at least useful.
Honestly, I was looking forward to this. I was even going to read as much fluff as I could on the Crimson Slaughter in preparation. Instead... why bother? They aren't fixing anything. They aren't addressing any concern. The game is the same garbage it was before, only now you get to spend more money on worse troop choices and an extra $50 that says you can use them, when it should be a booklet about the size of WDW and cost about as much too.
Possessed doesn't even make any sense from a narrative perspective. Although it does admittingly make me curious about potential fluff in the codex that explains why a warband that had practically nothing to do with daemons whatsoever in any of its appearances has possessed as a troop choice.
TiamatRoar wrote: Possessed doesn't even make any sense from a narrative perspective. Although it does admittingly make me curious about potential fluff in the codex that explains why a warband that had practically nothing to do with daemons whatsoever in any of its appearances has possessed as a troop choice.
At the rate they're going maybe they got retconned into a Khorne faction, or a splinter group of Word Bearers, or who knows.
Medium of Death wrote: I take it these are just regular possessed like the CSM codex? No options to give them bolters, bolt pistols or any other ranged weapon?
A nice concept nonetheless but it would have been good if we'd had that for variety.
That would actully might make them worth takeing as troops in all honesty.
3rd Edition - 6 Years (1998-2004) (2 codex per year)
12 Codexes: SM, DE, BA, CSM, DA, Orks, Eldar, IG, Tyranids, Tau, DH, WH 6 Supplements: Assassins, Catachans, SW, Craftworld, EOT, Arma,
1 Expansions: Cityfight
25 'Data slates': 11 different army lists and 14 different optional units/rules.
You forgot Necrons and Chaos 3.5
BA were a minidex
Updated!
Got another couple for you Petre, both Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Dark Eldar received second editions with some minor errata added in. Can't remember what Dark Angels got, the second edition for Dark Eldar had the Wych Cult rules.
GW is trying to differentiate their FW 30k line from the 40k one. I think that's why they shy away from legion stuff in 40k and push the warband aspect while FW is churning out lots of stuff for the legions.
orkybenji wrote: GW is trying to differentiate their FW 30k line from the 40k one. I think that's why they shy away from legion stuff in 40k and push the warband aspect while FW is churning out lots of stuff for the legions.
orkybenji wrote: GW is trying to differentiate their FW 30k line from the 40k one. I think that's why they shy away from legion stuff in 40k and push the warband aspect while FW is churning out lots of stuff for the legions.
Which would be fine if they were interchangeable. However they are not (at least to my understanding?) so the 30k stuff are actual Legiones Astartes that fight with all the ferocity of their Primarchs, while 40k are Traitor Legions, that don't behave like legions but a bunch of fractured bands.
angelofvengeance wrote: Has it occurred to anyone that maybe it might be nice to branch out from the usual Traitor Legions for a change?
They already did that. And people have been complaining about it since the 4th edition Chaos codex, which focused on renegaeds rather than the original legions, was released.
WHat is weird is that GW seem to think that they can only do one or the other... they can't present rules for both the original legions and newer renegades.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
prankster wrote: 3) If a legion / god specific book was put out then I'd imagine that the community would be much more vocal in their displeasure that it wasn't their chosen faction being represented. This would lead to more demand for the remaining factions to be done.
Yes, imagine if your customers wanted something enough that they kept asking for it.
If only there were some way for companies to communicate with their customers in order to determine just what they are asking for. But alas, communication between business and customer is impossible, and so GW are forced to just release stuff at random in the hope that something they release will be what people want...
insaniak wrote: WHat is weird is that GW seem to think that they can only do one or the other... they can't present rules for both the original legions and newer renegades.
Yet at the same time they seem perfectly capable of doing a Marine Codex that covers several founding and successor Chapters and even rolls the BT's into the book (for good or for ill).
Someone has probably already pointed this out, but the plaguemarine in the lower right of the White dwarf looks like he has some new bits. Specifically the face mask and helm.
sennacherib wrote: Someone has probably already pointed this out, but the plaguemarine in the lower right of the White dwarf looks like he has some new bits. Specifically the face mask and helm.
Yes, that was already pointed out. It's an old model.
sennacherib wrote: Someone has probably already pointed this out, but the plaguemarine in the lower right of the White dwarf looks like he has some new bits. Specifically the face mask and helm.
It's from the good old nurgle havocs set, nothing new, only oop...
Nurgle havok set. sounds like something they should still be making instead of some …. CRIMSON SLAUGTER nonsense. GW reminds me of Ford motor Company before the government here took them over. The top execs were so out of touch with the public and the company, that they didn't have any idea how much money their company had lost or needed. The government fired them and FORD started to do pretty well again. Wish we could fire the dill hole who was in charge of GW executive decisions.
And then did the Crimson Slaughter enter the Eye In fear of the Inquisition at their heels. ‘No!’ said the horned red one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’ ‘Please, oh mighty Khorne!’ said the former Chapter master. ‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’ ‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’ ‘Name it, oh murderous one.’ ‘Your Thunder Hammers. Your Storm Shields. Your Cyclones.’ ‘These are the cowards weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’ ‘It is done, my lord Khorne’ And Khorne was satisfied.
But again the Crimson Slaughter were barred. ‘No!’ said the giant green one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’ ‘Please, oh mighty Nurgle!’ said the former Chapter master. ‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’ ‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’ ‘Name it, oh gluttonous one.’ ‘Your Attack Bikes. Your Land Raider Variants.’ ‘These are weakling weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’ ‘It is done, my lord Nurgle’ And Nurgle was satisfied.
But again the Crimson Slaughter were once again barred. ‘No!’ said the lithe purple one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’ ‘Please, oh mighty Slaanesh!’ said the former Chapter master. ‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’ ‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’ ‘Name it, oh lascivious one.’ ‘Your Razorbacks. Your Thunderfire Cannons. You Whirlwinds.’ ‘These are pathetic weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’ ‘It is done, my lord Slaanesh’ And Slaanesh was satisfied.
But the Crimson Slaughter were barred for a final time. ‘No!’ said the winged blue one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’ ‘Please, oh mighty Tzeentch!’ said the former Chapter master. ‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’ ‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’ ‘Name it, oh wise one.’ ‘You Storm Ravens. Your Storm Talons. Your Land Speeders.’ ‘Only that which has wings may soar, and fly along my path’ ‘It is done, my lord Tzeentch’ And Tzeentch was satisfied.
With heavy heart the Crimson Slaughter left their weapons of war behind. Yet unto the Crimson Slaughter did the Warp deliver a bounty. Daemon Engines, in seemingly unlimited quantities. And Possessed Marines in abundance… for some reason… Their Terminators smiled at their new Reaper Autocannons And their Havocs did cavort with their new Autocannons. They were real Traitor Marines at last.
– Excerpt from ‘Sable & Slaughter’, by Arch-Heretic Jervisius Johnsonius
TiamatRoar wrote: Possessed doesn't even make any sense from a narrative perspective. Although it does admittingly make me curious about potential fluff in the codex that explains why a warband that had practically nothing to do with daemons whatsoever in any of its appearances has possessed as a troop choice.
At the rate they're going maybe they got retconned into a Khorne faction, or a splinter group of Word Bearers, or who knows.
Why would they be associated with Khorne? The biggest users of possessed have always been Chaos Undivided, AKA Word Bearers.
It's got 10 "Tactical" Chaos Space Marines in it hasn't it? That's two 5 man squads, and thus the required Troops. So it's legal, but not necessarily good.
However. I have been way too negative about this release. Other codex get troops or terminators as troops. WE get possessed as troops. Thats how lucky we are.
The cups half full...
Lockark wrote: I don't reconize that plaguemarien in the bottom right. It doesn't look like any of the ones from the current kit or the Forgeworld conversion kit.
I believe it says it in the title on the upper left....but I could be wrong....
Yes you could.
Chrysis wrote: It's got 10 "Tactical" Chaos Space Marines in it hasn't it? That's two 5 man squads, and thus the required Troops. So it's legal, but not necessarily good.
One is depicted with a heavy bolter, chaos can't take those in 5-man squads.
Yeah I don't know why restrictions has anything to do with what would be in the white dwarf. One ten man box of CSM has 1 heavy bolter, thus that is why it has 2 5-man units, and 1 has a heavy bolter.
warboss wrote: Two full codex books per year on average is basically what I remember from back then as well and it amounted to one new army book every 2-3 months roughly between the two big lines with a yearly LOTR starter/book around the winter premiere of the movies. You also had weekly releases of products previewed on the website but I guess that is back now with the smaller format White Dwarf. The types of stuff that comes out in the codex supplements would previously have been a web or WD article with a year end compilation of them all that costed less than a single supplement does now. IIRC, the Legion of the Damned were released that way in 3rd.
Right and we're getting 3.5 full codex books per year now in 6th edition. We don't get previews and the stuff that would be a web or WD article either goes to print or is a digital release.
So even with all of the dataslates, extra stuff, we still get more full codex/army books than we did during any other edition.
edit: You may disagree with how they're releasing the extra stuff (digidex, supplement, etc vs White Dwarf/Web), but you can't say that it is slowing down our codex releases, since those are actually increasing in speed.
I don't disagree. My post was an attempt to reinforce your position.
All the legion vs renegades problems can be sorted rather easily in a very obvious fashion. Codex chaos legions and codex chaos renegades. 2 books, if loyalists can get umpteen books chaos marines could have 2
Motograter wrote: All the legion vs renegades problems can be sorted rather easily in a very obvious fashion. Codex chaos legions and codex chaos renegades. 2 books,
Or even one book, with options to take razorbacks, stormravens, landspeeders and the like for renegades, and daemon engines for the Legions...
if loyalists can get umpteen books chaos marines could have 2
I would rather see all of the loyalists combined into one book, to be honest. There is no reason that something akin to the 4th edition traits system couldn't be used to represent Chapter variation.
Motograter wrote: All the legion vs renegades problems can be sorted rather easily in a very obvious fashion. Codex chaos legions and codex chaos renegades. 2 books,
Or even one book, with options to take razorbacks, stormravens, landspeeders and the like for renegades, and daemon engines for the Legions...
if loyalists can get umpteen books chaos marines could have 2
I would rather see all of the loyalists combined into one book, to be honest. There is no reason that something akin to the 4th edition traits system couldn't be used to represent Chapter variation.
Wishfull thinking here. A codex that actually covers the army it's supposed to? We're on the brink of 7th ed. now, thats not how things work anymore.
And then did the Crimson Slaughter enter the Eye
In fear of the Inquisition at their heels.
‘No!’ said the horned red one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Khorne!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh murderous one.’
‘Your Thunder Hammers. Your Storm Shields. Your Cyclones.’
‘These are the cowards weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Khorne’
And Khorne was satisfied.
But again the Crimson Slaughter were barred.
‘No!’ said the giant green one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Nurgle!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh gluttonous one.’
‘Your Attack Bikes. Your Land Raider Variants.’
‘These are weakling weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Nurgle’
And Nurgle was satisfied.
But again the Crimson Slaughter were once again barred.
‘No!’ said the lithe purple one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Slaanesh!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh lascivious one.’
‘Your Razorbacks. Your Thunderfire Cannons. You Whirlwinds.’
‘These are pathetic weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Slaanesh’
And Slaanesh was satisfied.
But the Crimson Slaughter were barred for a final time.
‘No!’ said the winged blue one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Tzeentch!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh wise one.’
‘You Storm Ravens. Your Storm Talons. Your Land Speeders.’
‘Only that which has wings may soar, and fly along my path’
‘It is done, my lord Tzeentch’
And Tzeentch was satisfied.
With heavy heart the Crimson Slaughter left their weapons of war behind.
Yet unto the Crimson Slaughter did the Warp deliver a bounty.
Daemon Engines, in seemingly unlimited quantities.
And Possessed Marines in abundance… for some reason…
Their Terminators smiled at their new Reaper Autocannons
And their Havocs did cavort with their new Autocannons.
They were real Traitor Marines at last.
– Excerpt from ‘Sable & Slaughter’, by Arch-Heretic Jervisius Johnsonius
That is awesome. You should really be hired to write fluff about 40k. Oh, wait, you are already !
Well, I'll still prolly pick this up. Even more expensive than Cult troops, but at least they're scoring. Just picked up some Possessed arms on eBay to kitbash with my useless CSM models. Hopefully we get some nice Wargear, since they definitely wont be taking the Primary Slot for the most part.
Wrecker wrote: Look at the current attack force, one troop...
And $20 less than the corresponding Space Marine boxed army, which has two troops and a Drop Pod.
...let the bashing begin!
IDK about you but I think that's a valid reason. $205 for what isn't even a legal army out of the box (and let's not get into the usefulness of Termies, Raptors and the Forgefiend because honestly they look cool) is a bit sketchy, when the closest thing to it for the "golden boy" army is $225 and has a fully playable (albeit lackluster) army right out of the box.
Wrecker wrote: Look at the current attack force, one troop...
And $20 less than the corresponding Space Marine boxed army, which has two troops and a Drop Pod.
...let the bashing begin!
IDK about you but I think that's a valid reason. $205 for what isn't even a legal army out of the box (and let's not get into the usefulness of Termies, Raptors and the Forgefiend because honestly they look cool) is a bit sketchy, when the closest thing to it for the "golden boy" army is $225 and has a fully playable (albeit lackluster) army right out of the box.
Almost, GW. Almost.
On the other hand, it's cheaper than buying the boxes seperately, and it is a great start for an army - you only need to add one box of troops, and you've got a sizeable (albeit not very competetive) army.
Goresaw wrote: And to be fair, its because the rules for those models suck.
I think people would have been upset if the box had nothing but cultists and helldrakes in it.
That would certainly make it easier to start a "competitive" Chaos army
I am kind of disappointed that Terminators/Raptors/Helbrute/Forgefiends suck, because they look awesome. The Forge/Maulerfiend and Helbrute especially.
Some decent points made, but I don't think people have looked at it from GW's perspective.
Your target audience is 12-15 year olds, and they're most likely to get into the game through DV. From a logical perspective, a Crimson Slaughter codex to add to the DA dex, and a new chaos battalion box thingy to add to the DV stuff, makes sense...to them at least - especially If you have this summer campaign thing??
People will say that it's not competitive, but a lot of people just turn up for a game and a laugh with whatever models they have. I did it for years.
Still, I'm happy with this release wave. And the reason why? Well, I've been getting rid of my war hammer stuff, and the other day I came across a box of Khorne berserkers. My initial reaction was that I'd never sell them because of their age. To my surprise the same one's are still for sale after all these years! Thank you GW, thank you!
tarnish wrote: Please no more quote pyramids. My head hurts at the sight of these...
As for "Crimson Slaughter" I don´t see why you cannot simply paint them as one of the major legions and call it a day?
Oh, you definitely can, but only if your legion has a high rate of posessed and whatever else this codex will provide. So if you want traitors that weren't stuck in the eye of terror or fell prey to rampant mutation like the alpha legion or any more recent warband - well, tough luck for you.
As far as I see it, Crimson slaughter could double up for word bearers quite well if they add some extra bits to apostles but is fairly useless for any other legion.
Man, for far too long I've agonized over deciding between Possessed and Helbrutes. Truly the powerhouse units of the Chaos Codex.
Now I can take Possessed as troops and buy some nice new helbrutes!
Thanks GW!
**EDIT
I really like the Helbrutes though. I might buy one just to mess around with. Dreads have always been my favorite models and I like the Helbrutes. Between them and FWs offerings, you can make some awesome looking killbots. I just wish they had better rules..
sharkticon wrote: Got another couple for you Petre, both Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Dark Eldar received second editions with some minor errata added in. Can't remember what Dark Angels got, the second edition for Dark Eldar had the Wych Cult rules.
I wasn't counting those, although I probably should have.
I would rather see all of the loyalists combined into one book, to be honest. There is no reason that something akin to the 4th edition traits system couldn't be used to represent Chapter variation.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Some decent points made, but I don't think people have looked at it from GW's perspective.
Your target audience is 12-15 year olds, and they're most likely to get into the game through DV. From a logical perspective, a Crimson Slaughter codex to add to the DA dex, and a new chaos battalion box thingy to add to the DV stuff, makes sense...to them at least - especially If you have this summer campaign thing??
People will say that it's not competitive, but a lot of people just turn up for a game and a laugh with whatever models they have. I did it for years.
Still, I'm happy with this release wave. And the reason why? Well, I've been getting rid of my war hammer stuff, and the other day I came across a box of Khorne berserkers. My initial reaction was that I'd never sell them because of their age. To my surprise the same one's are still for sale after all these years! Thank you GW, thank you!
How many kids do you know that can buy dark vengeance, codex csm, codex crimson slaughter and the battle force. That's a lot of cash just to start
sharkticon wrote: Got another couple for you Petre, both Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Dark Eldar received second editions with some minor errata added in. Can't remember what Dark Angels got, the second edition for Dark Eldar had the Wych Cult rules.
I wasn't counting those, although I probably should have.
And then did the Crimson Slaughter enter the Eye
In fear of the Inquisition at their heels.
‘No!’ said the horned red one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Khorne!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh murderous one.’
‘Your Thunder Hammers. Your Storm Shields. Your Cyclones.’
‘These are the cowards weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Khorne’
And Khorne was satisfied.
But again the Crimson Slaughter were barred.
‘No!’ said the giant green one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Nurgle!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh gluttonous one.’
‘Your Attack Bikes. Your Land Raider Variants.’
‘These are weakling weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Nurgle’
And Nurgle was satisfied.
But again the Crimson Slaughter were once again barred.
‘No!’ said the lithe purple one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Slaanesh!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh lascivious one.’
‘Your Razorbacks. Your Thunderfire Cannons. You Whirlwinds.’
‘These are pathetic weapons, and none that walk my path will have them’
‘It is done, my lord Slaanesh’
And Slaanesh was satisfied.
But the Crimson Slaughter were barred for a final time.
‘No!’ said the winged blue one. ‘None shall enter unto my halls!’
‘Please, oh mighty Tzeentch!’ said the former Chapter master.
‘We run not from our enemies but to your embrace.’
‘Then a toll is asked, before you can pass.’
‘Name it, oh wise one.’
‘You Storm Ravens. Your Storm Talons. Your Land Speeders.’
‘Only that which has wings may soar, and fly along my path’
‘It is done, my lord Tzeentch’
And Tzeentch was satisfied.
With heavy heart the Crimson Slaughter left their weapons of war behind.
Yet unto the Crimson Slaughter did the Warp deliver a bounty.
Daemon Engines, in seemingly unlimited quantities.
And Possessed Marines in abundance… for some reason…
Their Terminators smiled at their new Reaper Autocannons
And their Havocs did cavort with their new Autocannons.
They were real Traitor Marines at last.
– Excerpt from ‘Sable & Slaughter’, by Arch-Heretic Jervisius Johnsonius
Motograter wrote: How many kids do you know that can buy dark vengeance, codex csm, codex crimson slaughter and the battle force. That's a lot of cash just to start
The same ones that can buy five Imperial Knights...
sharkticon wrote: Got another couple for you Petre, both Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Dark Eldar received second editions with some minor errata added in. Can't remember what Dark Angels got, the second edition for Dark Eldar had the Wych Cult rules.
I wasn't counting those, although I probably should have.
if loyalists can get umpteen books chaos marines could have 2
I would rather see all of the loyalists combined into one book, to be honest. There is no reason that something akin to the 4th edition traits system couldn't be used to represent Chapter variation.
That's just as lazy as shoving Chaos, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Guard into one book.
Four books for Loyalists, four for Traitors.
One "baseline" book covering things like the Ultramarines and the "least divergent" Chapters(and/or Founding Legions) like Imperial/ Crimson Fists. A baseline book for traitors covering the Black Legion and the "least broken" of the Legions, so like the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors. Have this book having access to lots of "Undivided" stuff...but with a smattering of Marked units, like Berzerkers and Plague Marines and access to Daemons.
One "divergent" book covering the more "radical" FOC differentiating Chapters. Dark Angels, Raven Guard, and White Scars in addition to their Successors that follow their examples go in here. This book ideally would have the option for all Biker armies, all Terminator armies, Scout heavy armies, and some "unique" options for Captains/Chapter Masters and some "signature units" to go with. Imagine a unit of Raven Guard "veterans" stripped down to Scout Armor and organized as a kill team--and the equipment to match, or a White Scar "hunting party" of bikers with power spears.
Chaos gets a similar book with Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Red Corsairs with rules for "renegades" in the book as well. Lots of "scavenged" Imperial equipment with the potential for Marks and Daemon summoning. Cultists of course make an appearance here as well.
Another "divergent" book covering the Space Wolves, Iron Hands, and Black Templars. The ability for mixed units of Terminators leading Tactical Marine squads, lots of "Champion" styled characters and a heavy focus on the infantry rather than the vehicles if that makes sense.
Chaos gets a similar book focusing on the World Eaters/Khornate warbands and Emperor's Children/Slaaneshi warbands. Signature units of Noise Marines for Slaaneshi warbands and Berzerkers for Khornate warbands, but with unique options and them being made Troops rather than Elites in the main book. Marked cultists in the book and give them the ability to summon in the appropriate Daemons. Make sure there are rules within the book detailing the "rivalries" of Khorne and Slaanesh allowing for an animosity styled potential--wacky fun!
Final divergent book would be something like the Blood Angels and the Chapters which are closer to the "renegade" edge here. This is the one I've given the least amount of thought to so forgive me on that. Final Chaos book would be Thousand Sons/Tzeentchian Cults and Death Guard/Nurgle warbands. Pretty easy here.
Well, whatever might be the case, there are currently 8 main books for the imperials: 5 books for SM (C:SM, BA, DA, SW, GK), 3 of other humans (IG, SoB, Inquisition). Additionally there are 4 Supplements: Raukaan, Sentinels, LotD, Knights and several Dataslates (Tyranic veterans, Centurion Cohort, Reclusiam).
Forgeworld adds 5 additional Lists (2 Krieg Regiments, Elysians, SM Siege Vanguard, Armored Fist).
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
Score without slates: 15:6
That reads like tons of stuff for Loyalists and a [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself. Thanks - Alpharius] Do not approve.
Kosake wrote: Well, whatever might be the case, there are currently 8 main books for the imperials: 5 books for SM (C:SM, BA, DA, SW, GK), 3 of other humans (IG, SoB, Inquisition). Additionally there are 4 Supplements: Raukaan, Sentinels, LotD, Knights and several Dataslates (Tyranic veterans, Centurion Cohort, Reclusiam).
Forgeworld adds 5 additional Lists (2 Krieg Regiments, Elysians, SM Siege Vanguard, Armored Fist).
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
Forge World technically adds three lists just for "Lost and the Damned" alone, unless the various "Vraksian Renegade" lists have been invalidated. There was a "basic" list, a Khorne list, and a Nurgle list.
Yeaaah...you remember it as "good", I remember it as "horribly abused".
And as we all know, it's the only Codex that's ever been horribly abused ever. Every other Codex ever release has been a paragon of non-abusive balance.
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
I'm not sure Tyrant's Legion should even count as a Chaos faction. Hell, the only allies they are allowed to take are Space Marines and Imperial Guard (IE, they can't ally with Chaos. At all), and they use Imperium super heavies for Escalation. All of their units for the most part are Imperium units.
Sure, fluff-wise, this was Huron giving the illusion that it was the Imperium that was in the wrong for attacking them, but still, anyone looking for a Chaos flavor should go look elsewhere, cause for the most part in terms of units and allies Tyrant's Legion is actually more like an Imperium faction. It's only the fluff background to it that's renegade (and even then, it's unclear if they were aligned to Chaos back then).
TiamatRoar wrote: I'm not sure Tyrant's Legion should even count as a Chaos faction. Hell, the only allies they are allowed to take are Space Marines and Imperial Guard (IE, they can't ally with Chaos. At all), and they use Imperium super heavies for Escalation. All of their units for the most part are Imperium units.
That's because Huron's switch to chaos was extremely recent and not having access to the Eye means Imperial equipment is pretty much all that he has access to. Had Huron's actions happened a thousand years or so ago, then chaos cults would have had tome to establish and build all sorts of familiar chaos war engines.
Yeaaah...you remember it as "good", I remember it as "horribly abused".
I also remember BA as horribly abused, 4th Edition Eldar/Tau as horribly abused, 5th edition GK/Necrons/SW, 6th tau/eldar...
I don't hear anyone clamoring to rip 3/4ths of their codex away and split part of it into another codex...
When were Basilisks part of the Chaos Codex?
They weren't, you needed Codex: Imperial Guard to use its rules.
Exactly.
That has got to be the weakest argument I've ever seen you make. You running your shields on aux power or something?
A book referencing a unit from a different Codex isn't anywhere near the same thing as entire unit entries being ripped from an existing Codex, and you damn. Well. Know. It.
A book referencing a unit from a different Codex isn't anywhere near the same thing as entire unit entries being ripped from an existing Codex, and you damn. Well. Know. It.
By that same vein, you of all people should know that blasting one Codex does not mean that someone thinks they're "all balanced".
What is kind of amusing as well is the fact that when Codex: Iron Warriors...I mean, the 3.5 Codex: Chaos Space Marines was "revised", most of the complaints were centered around "We lost X, Y, and Z!" when at the same time other armies were losing similar things.
Doctrines are gone, the Traits system is gone, Codex: Craftworld Eldar is gone and most of the things that were published in the same timeframe as the 3.5 CSM book have gone the way of the dodo.
Kosake wrote: Well, whatever might be the case, there are currently 8 main books for the imperials: 5 books for SM (C:SM, BA, DA, SW, GK), 3 of other humans (IG, SoB, Inquisition). Additionally there are 4 Supplements: Raukaan, Sentinels, LotD, Knights and several Dataslates (Tyranic veterans, Centurion Cohort, Reclusiam).
Forgeworld adds 5 additional Lists (2 Krieg Regiments, Elysians, SM Siege Vanguard, Armored Fist).
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
Forge World technically adds three lists just for "Lost and the Damned" alone, unless the various "Vraksian Renegade" lists have been invalidated. There was a "basic" list, a Khorne list, and a Nurgle list.
That's just as lazy as shoving Chaos, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Guard into one book.
Four books for Loyalists, four for Traitors.
Man, you havn't played long have you? That describes the 3.5 codex for chaos! The one that's actually good.
Yeaaah...you remember it as "good", I remember it as "horribly abused".
To be fair this makes Imperial factions even more dramatic. Just think of all the Imperial factions and the smattering of SM (heck, there's at least 12 new chapter tactics for marines)
I think the main grievance comes down to the fact that we have had two bland/sub-par codices in a row that entirely tried to hide up the legions which are honestly probably one of the most prominent selling points of chaos at this point for many. Along with that, the update from 3.5 to 4th wasn't that simple. It literally tore out every chaos daemon unit and chunked it into its own codex. From there, we lost any synergy for an entire 2 editions only to return in 6th vaguely. Still, all it really means is that you can ally them together and you can cast spells on one another. You can't mix them together, there's no rules to synergize them together. Then, there's the other grievance. No matter what, we are still a mirror to SM. Space Marines have the same number of "legions" (chapters and warbands nowadays) and both have a prominent future army (Corsairs and Black Templars). Now then, we've always had to share a codex whilst SM have 4 codices for SM and for a while even 5. When the 5th SM codex came out, for many individuals, this probably seemed like hope that Chaos too would have rules such as that. It was a perfect representation. From there, 6th edition came and chaos received another buggy, bland, and uninspired codex. But many were content as long as GW tried to balance around CSM and DA levels. Well they didn't. And then they came out with Sm who got a new troop model (which honestly is one of the most important parts sense you will be stuck deploying them every game) and had a codex which managed to capture the basic element of almost every army extremely well. Chaos though? We have several legions that don't even have characters to represent them. Many of the legions can't even truly be fielded in any real distinctive manner. We look to our mirror image and discover a codex more inspired, more balanced, more reliable, and just more loved even though Chaos has been bitter sense 4th edition's codex came out they continued the same cycle of mediocrity.
To rub salt in the wound, SM supplements are a joke. Three of them are just a company of marines within a chapter that already gets representation. It's a joke. They could have done so much, they could have even made it (using UM as an example) Supplement: Ultramarine. From there, give a selection of Ultramarine only relics, a warlord trait specifically to them, no dataslate for the experts against tyranids, put the rules for them in here. Then do this for other factions. It could go into what makes them unique, describe them, give some unique traits to make them appealing. Really, anything.
Anyways, as to the lost and the damned. I'm still waiting and hoping they might do it for Tzeentch and Slaanesh (my favorite two gods )!
Kanluwen wrote: Four books for Loyalists, four for Traitors.
No. Five books for the Imperium (Astartes, Militarium, Sororitas, Inquisition and Mechanicum. Also need to rename Inquisition into Inquisitium or something…) and three books for Chaos (Lost-and-damned, marines, daemons). Done.
Kanluwen wrote: Four books for Loyalists, four for Traitors.
No. Five books for the Imperium (Astartes, Militarium, Sororitas, Inquisition and Mechanicum. Also need to rename Inquisition into Inquisitium or something…) and three books for Chaos (Lost-and-damned, marines, daemons). Done.
Is it wrong if sometimes I wish Sororitas could become Ecclesiarchy? Then have a troop choice that is just raving floggers and devoted members with pitchforks and cobbled autoguns that charge onwards for faith?
If one wished to stretch it, I could see 6 books (one that is codex adherent and one that is not) for the Imperium and 4 for chaos (undivided/renegades and gods or legions and renegades). Really though, the supplements are largely just disappointments. Farsight is probably the only one I regard as really worth it and even then it is more because of the fluff of farsight. The battlesuits as troops seems like something that could easily fit in the codex itself and almost feels yanked out.
StarTrotter wrote: Is it wrong if sometimes I wish Sororitas could become Ecclesiarchy?
No, it is not wrong. But but but we still need latin names ! Codex: Astra Ecclesiarchium. Latin + Greek make no sense, but whatever .
Don't forget random tables! Roll d6 to discover why the hordes of faithful are so frothy. Along with that, the priest rolls a d3. On a 1, he is actually corrupt and him dying gives no slay the warlord, a 2 means nothing happens, a 3 means that he is worth 2 points but gives stubborn and zealous to all around him. If he dies, all within 12" take a leadership test. On a fail, remove that many units to represent their devote sacrifice of their souls in shame. On a pass, all of them gain preferred enemy (enemy) and hatred (all)
For you Warlord trait, roll a dice. On a 1, you get no warlord traits. On a 2, roll for the trait on the First Table. On a 2, roll for the trait on the Second Table. On a 3, roll a d3 : this will tell you on which one of the table from the main rulebook you will roll. On a 4, congratulation, you get Fear ! On a 5, every objective has the booby-traped effect in addition to the normal effect of mysterious objective. If you also get booby-traped as the normal mysterious objective effect, roll twice each turn to see if the objective explode once, twice or not at all this turn. Also, every piece of terrain now use the mysterious terrain rule. Roll to see which random table you will use for each terrain. On a 6, you get two warlord traits ! Reroll twice on this table. If you get twice the same warlord trait, you get Fear instead. If you get Fear twice, congratulation ! You are now really frightening.
sub-zero wrote: Does anyone have any actual news on the rumored Havoc release supposedly coming next week?
What havoc release?
Original rumours had the Hellbrute model being released alongside new boxes of Chosen and Havocs, as well as a Supplement allowing CSM armies to distribute Veteran skills like candy. When the Hellbrute got confirmed without any accompanying new models and the supplement was revealed to be nothing like rumoured, people started clutching at straws that maybe the original rumours were only slightly made up instead of mostly, and that maybe the other new models were coming next week.
So looking up the definition of Sable and we get;
A large African antelope with long curved horns, the male of which has a black coat and the female a russet coat, both having a white belly.
Sounds like our Chaos Lord Rudolf the Crimson Reindeer!
It also defines a weasel-like animal native to Japan and Siberia... and the color Black.
TiamatRoar wrote: I'm not sure Tyrant's Legion should even count as a Chaos faction. Hell, the only allies they are allowed to take are Space Marines and Imperial Guard (IE, they can't ally with Chaos. At all), and they use Imperium super heavies for Escalation. All of their units for the most part are Imperium units.
That's because Huron's switch to chaos was extremely recent and not having access to the Eye means Imperial equipment is pretty much all that he has access to. Had Huron's actions happened a thousand years or so ago, then chaos cults would have had tome to establish and build all sorts of familiar chaos war engines.
I am well aware of the fluff/story reasons for it. It doesn't change the fact that crunch and model-wise, playing Tyrant's Legion is basically playing an Imperial army with a renegade-ish background more than playing a Chaos faction, which means Tyrant's Legion shouldn't really count as a Chaos book. Again, even their allies from the Allies Matrix are Imperium armies (Space Marines and Imperial Guard). If someone is looking for something "chaos-flavored" to play, the Tyrant's Legion is NOT it, both fluff-wise (they haven't really turned to Chaos yet, for the most part) and model-wise (before conversions. After conversions... well, you can do anything if we're including conversions, including playing Imperial Guard as a chaos traitor guard)
Even the Forge World chapter tactics PDF states that if you want to play Red Corsairs (which is what most people think of when you put Huron and Chaos in the same sentence), you're supposed to use Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Tyrant's Legion.
Hence why I think one shouldn't count "The Tyrant's Legion" as a Chaos book. They can't even ally with any of the Chaos factions.
Kosake wrote: Well, whatever might be the case, there are currently 8 main books for the imperials: 5 books for SM (C:SM, BA, DA, SW, GK), 3 of other humans (IG, SoB, Inquisition). Additionally there are 4 Supplements: Raukaan, Sentinels, LotD, Knights and several Dataslates (Tyranic veterans, Centurion Cohort, Reclusiam).
Forgeworld adds 5 additional Lists (2 Krieg Regiments, Elysians, SM Siege Vanguard, Armored Fist).
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
Forge World technically adds three lists just for "Lost and the Damned" alone, unless the various "Vraksian Renegade" lists have been invalidated. There was a "basic" list, a Khorne list, and a Nurgle list.
The Servants of Decay and Servants of Slaughter are outdated and all three are laughably dull and weak. If you want Lost and the Damned you pretty much just have to have IG with Daemon allies.
Kosake wrote: Well, whatever might be the case, there are currently 8 main books for the imperials: 5 books for SM (C:SM, BA, DA, SW, GK), 3 of other humans (IG, SoB, Inquisition). Additionally there are 4 Supplements: Raukaan, Sentinels, LotD, Knights and several Dataslates (Tyranic veterans, Centurion Cohort, Reclusiam).
Forgeworld adds 5 additional Lists (2 Krieg Regiments, Elysians, SM Siege Vanguard, Armored Fist).
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
Forge World technically adds three lists just for "Lost and the Damned" alone, unless the various "Vraksian Renegade" lists have been invalidated. There was a "basic" list, a Khorne list, and a Nurgle list.
The Servants of Decay and Servants of Slaughter are outdated and all three are laughably dull and weak. If you want Lost and the Damned you pretty much just have to have IG with Daemon allies.
I'm not sure I'd really count them as three separate armies either since they're practically supplements of each other, even more so than the others. Forge World Supplements would be more appropriate classification in this case.
Kosake wrote: Well, whatever might be the case, there are currently 8 main books for the imperials: 5 books for SM (C:SM, BA, DA, SW, GK), 3 of other humans (IG, SoB, Inquisition). Additionally there are 4 Supplements: Raukaan, Sentinels, LotD, Knights and several Dataslates (Tyranic veterans, Centurion Cohort, Reclusiam).
Forgeworld adds 5 additional Lists (2 Krieg Regiments, Elysians, SM Siege Vanguard, Armored Fist).
Chaos has 2 Books - CSM, Demons. There are two supplements (Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter), one Dataslate (Be'Lakor, Cypher can be seen as a unit for both somehow) and Forge adds two Lists - Lost and the damned and Tyrants Legion.
Forge World technically adds three lists just for "Lost and the Damned" alone, unless the various "Vraksian Renegade" lists have been invalidated. There was a "basic" list, a Khorne list, and a Nurgle list.
The Servants of Decay and Servants of Slaughter are outdated and all three are laughably dull and weak. If you want Lost and the Damned you pretty much just have to have IG with Daemon allies.
I'm not sure I'd really count them as three separate armies either since they're practically supplements of each other, even more so than the others. Forge World Supplements would be more appropriate classification in this case.
Well it literally is the same army afterall, it's their descent into chaos further and further to try and beat back the enemy.
Kanluwen wrote: By that same vein, you of all people should know that blasting one Codex does not mean that someone thinks they're "all balanced".
Yes but your specific reaction to someone mentioned the 3.5 was that you remembered it as unbalanced. If your point wasn’t that “It was unbalanced, therefore we shouldn’t go back to that”, then what I said is relevant. You cannot blast a Codex as unbalanced whilst ignoring the inherent imbalances in all the other ones. If that wasn’t your point, then I’m mystified as to what it was, because it seems like a (unintentional) red herring. What did you mean? Please clarify.
You then went on to equate losing units out of the Chaos Codex when it changed to “Chaos Marines” and “Chaos Daemons” with one part of the 3.5 ‘Dex referencing Basilisks in a different book. “Tenuous” would be a highly generous description of that particular ‘link’.
Kanluwen wrote: What is kind of amusing as well is the fact that when Codex: Iron Warriors...I mean, the 3.5 Codex: Chaos Space Marines was "revised", most of the complaints were centered around "We lost X, Y, and Z!" when at the same time other armies were losing similar things.
Losing similar things? I can’t think of any other army that, in their transition from one list to another lost:
1. The entirety of a facet of their army that had been part of their list since the army’s inception (Daemons). 2. The entirety of an upgrade/wargear system that had been part of their list since the army’s inception (Daemonic Mutations). 3. Marks of Chaos (replaced with Banners, where the squad forgets what Chaos God they serve should the guy holding the fancy stick die). 4. All forms of special sub-list rules (even the Realms of Chaos books had separate lists for various Chapters, as similar as they might have been).
Furthermore you reveal your bias by calling it “Codex: Iron Warriors”. If that’s all you think that Codex was, and if you are so arrogant as to not see what people who didn’t play Iron Warriors lost, then you simply do not belong in this conversation.
Doctrines are gone, the Traits system is gone, Codex: Craftworld Eldar is gone and most of the things that were published in the same timeframe as the 3.5 CSM book have gone the way of the dodo.
And? So? But? Therefore? Is this meant to be an additional ‘point’ in your ‘argument’? If so, then let me counter: We have Chapter Tactics. That’s all Chaos needs. And that’s all a lot of us have been saying for pages. Not a return to 3.5, not a Doctrine or Trait system, but a similar system to Chapter Tactics that represents the various Legions via special rules and the odd change here and there just like Chapter Tactics. It's simple. It's elegant. It's not predicated on the concept of "giving something up to get something else", which was the whole balance problem with Doctrine/Trait systems. It just works. And if a specific army has a unit that's unique to them, then they can just add that to the regular Codex, just like Crusader Squads.
The crimson sables clearly had, had enough of trying to paint their armour in old blood red, sold their souls and were granted mechrite and baal red. Then the gods laughed and replaced their beloved baal and mechrite with carroburg crimson and their descent to madness was complete. So they made daemonic pacts to increase their fleshyness and lower the amount of crimson that required painting...
insaniak wrote: WHat is weird is that GW seem to think that they can only do one or the other... they can't present rules for both the original legions and newer renegades.
Agreed. The way I did it was to make Renegades a group of traits for modern Marines that exchanged some of the Imperium specific items (like Deathwatch squads, Inquisitors and Legion of the Damned) for access to lesser daemons and daemonic artifacts.
Now, I understand that lots of people like the demonic aspect of the traitor legions but I like the "renegade" aspect. I can sypathise with a legion that for one reason or another decided to cast off the yoke of the imperium with their dogmatic, xenophobic, religious crap and decided to free the people/defend their homeworld/go treasurehunting or whatever much more, than I can sympathise with some brainfried demon worshippers that either look like a salvo of foul eggs exploded all over them, have tentacles for faces or probably need a heroin injection and 12 kV straight to the nipples just to get out of bed in the morning. Bloodcrazed, foaming psychopaths are kinda ok though. But that's beside the point.
I'd love to have a sensible way to play traitors without demonic corruption all over them. Alpha Legion never entered the eye of terror, there are bound to be chapters who abandoned the IOM not for chaos worship but because of what it is, some of them very recently. I want to be able to field at least half the vehicles of the loyalists and would dearly love to know, why plasma cannons are now hellbrute-issue only.
Checked with BOLS, they still claim there will be Chosen and Havocs and even something else.
The following week (March 15 pre-orders, March 22nd release) we will see the following:
- CSM Chosen plastic kit
- CSM Havocs plastic kit
If you recall a couple of months ago there was talk of a fourth CSM mini set coming to plastic alongside the other three.
The earlier chatter pointed to a Chaos Cultists kit.
The latest chatter has seen the Cultist talk die down and Oblit talk uptick a bit, but the jury is still out.[/qoute]
Kosake wrote: Now, I understand that lots of people like the demonic aspect of the traitor legions but I like the "renegade" aspect. I can sypathise with a legion that for one reason or another decided to cast off the yoke of the imperium with their dogmatic, xenophobic, religious crap and decided to free the people/defend their homeworld/go treasurehunting or whatever much more, than I can sympathise with some brainfried demon worshippers that either look like a salvo of foul eggs exploded all over them, have tentacles for faces or probably need a heroin injection and 12 kV straight to the nipples just to get out of bed in the morning. Bloodcrazed, foaming psychopaths are kinda ok though. But that's beside the point.
I'd love to have a sensible way to play traitors without demonic corruption all over them. Alpha Legion never entered the eye of terror, there are bound to be chapters who abandoned the IOM not for chaos worship but because of what it is, some of them very recently. I want to be able to field at least half the vehicles of the loyalists and would dearly love to know, why plasma cannons are now hellbrute-issue only.
There's a codex for that, it's called Codex: Space Marines. Recent Renegades should only use the SM codex. The Chaos SM Codex should be about (the remnants of the) legions and very corrupted CSM only.
I believe the Chosen box when I see it. Would be the first box people actually asked for. I like both Hellchicken and Forgefiend but nobody wanted them. Same with Mutilators. People wanted proper CSM minis and Cult units.
I've never been a fan of Horned Helms much anyway, that's why I have them all left over in the bitz box, but that guy definitely has some Antelope ears on him.
I'm skeptical about every ones assumption that there will be a Zombie upgrade to the Cultists (maybe like a few spare heads? An arm or two?) since only a Typhus list can use them. Unless of course they plan on making them available to other CSM forces via a Supplement...
Sounds like a great idea. So no.
But I could also see a Chaos Cultist box tying into Guard easily for some Traitor Guard loving. Hence why it would be the last release?
What is kind of amusing as well is the fact that when Codex: Iron Warriors...I mean, the 3.5 Codex: Chaos Space Marines was "revised", most of the complaints were centered around "We lost X, Y, and Z!" when at the same time other armies were losing similar things.
You know what I lost? I lost the ability to play my army. I feel for everyone else who lost special rules, but at least Trait and Doctrine users weren't pretty much told "your army doesn't exist as a fighting force in the 40k universe anymore, buy something else".
From GW's digital facebook page:
Hey Guys,
Keep your eyes on the website and iBooks this weekend when we’ll be unveiling the latest Codex Supplement for Warhammer 40,000.
Yeah, that is one of the dickiest move GW can do. They also did that with squat, chaos dwarves, dogs of war/mercenaries, kroot mercenary, the lost and the damned, genestealer cults, and maybe a few other.
Unless they are announcing two red chaos books in the near future Crimson Slaughter was just teased as a supplement book, not a stand alone codex.
Games Workshop: Digital Editions via Facebook wrote:Hey Guys,
Keep your eyes on the website and iBooks this weekend when we’ll be unveiling the latest Codex Supplement for Warhammer 40,000.
DJGietzen wrote: Unless they are announcing two red chaos books in the near future Crimson Slaughter was just teased as a supplement book, not a stand alone codex.
Games Workshop: Digital Editions via Facebook wrote:Hey Guys,
Keep your eyes on the website and iBooks this weekend when we’ll be unveiling the latest Codex Supplement for Warhammer 40,000.
It's been confirmed as a Codex Supplement (a la Black Legion) and not a full Codex.
What is kind of amusing as well is the fact that when Codex: Iron Warriors...I mean, the 3.5 Codex: Chaos Space Marines was "revised", most of the complaints were centered around "We lost X, Y, and Z!" when at the same time other armies were losing similar things.
You know what I lost? I lost the ability to play my army. I feel for everyone else who lost special rules, but at least Trait and Doctrine users weren't pretty much told "your army doesn't exist as a fighting force in the 40k universe anymore, buy something else".
I have had far too many blastmasters to field, since I lost the ability to take them in Havoc squads. Oh, not to mention that, until the current codex, my Noise Marine squad leaders who had plasma pistols were illegal.
Prices on several existing Chaos Space Marine kits have gone up about $2 US in most cases. Example: Forgefiend up to $68 US from $66, Raptors up to $35 from $33.
The Crimson Slaughter seek to wash away their sins in a tide of blood. This collection allows you to join them now in the Long War to bring down the Imperium they once willingly served.
This collection includes: 1 copy of Crimson Slaughter: A Codex Supplement and 1 Helbrute.
The Helbrute is a plastic kit that is supplied unpainted and requires assembly - we recommend using Citadel Thin Plastic Glue and Citadel Paints.
$103.50 USD
Same price as buying separate. Why the hell haven't they figured out that even tossing a $5 discount on a bundle like this would actually move more product.
Same price as buying separate. Why the hell haven't they figured out that even tossing a $5 discount on a bundle like this would actually move more product.
/same argument made with EVERy release...
Really? I still wouldn't order from GW if it was only $5 cheaper, they'd have to match miniaturemarket.com or thewarstore.com on discount, or get close an ship to me the same Time they ship to the stores. Even then since there's a lackluster GW in my state I have to pay sales tax on top of ordering from them. If I order from Neal then I get the discount AND no taxes. Unfortunately (for my bank account) miniaturemarket is a mile from my house, so I can save shipping and get the discount, but lose money to taxes . I always have to calculate if I can wait a few days and order from Neal, or pick it up at MM and pay a little more from taxes.
In the latest WDW it states in regards to the Crimson Slaughter book that "there are a series of additions which alters Codex: Chaos Space Marines to give you a Crimson Slaughter warband. Some of the changes are more visible than others" but gives no details beyond Possessed as Troops.
If that means there's more than just that is anyone's guess.
Also the official line for them getting Possessed is that they were mutated pretty badly, and before they arrive milk curdles and the sky darkens, and other horrible things to foretell doom.
bubber wrote: Anyone know if this weeks WD lets you know what's actually in the 'dex (rules-wise)??
Nope. See my above comment. They allude to the usual (Planetstrike/Cities of Death strategems, Relics) and some vague comment about additional changes to make an army actual feel like Crimson Slaughter, but besides Possessed as troops there isn't anything else.
Anyone else think this codex supplement would have made alot sense as a wordbearer supplement.
Just look at the collection "slave to the voices"; its a bunch of posessed and a dark apostle.
Did they just copy paste wordbearer rules to a crimsome slaughterer fluff?
They hardly even bother to change the colour of the models
Slaves to the Voices
Tormented by the faces of those they have killed, their minds are constantly assaulted by endless screams. Sleep is impossible, the voices are always whispering. Slaughter pays for a moments peace - but it is only a moment - then the butchery must begin again.
Crimson Slaughter: A codex supplement allows units of possessed to be counted as troops choices. Slaves to the voices is a collection of miniatures that form an army of the most tormented and deranged souls that ever graced the battlefield.
This collection includes: 4 boxes of 5 Chaos Possessed, 1 Dark Apostle, 1 Helbrute and 2 Chaos Rhinos.
Nope. See my above comment. They allude to the usual (Planetstrike/Cities of Death strategems, Relics) and some vague comment about additional changes to make an army actual feel like Crimson Slaughter, but besides Possessed as troops there isn't anything else.
Slaves to the Voices Tormented by the faces of those they have killed, their minds are constantly assaulted by endless screams. Sleep is impossible, the voices are always whispering. Slaughter pays for a moments peace - but it is only a moment - then the butchery must begin again.
Crimson Slaughter: A codex supplement allows units of possessed to be counted as troops choices. Slaves to the voices is a collection of miniatures that form an army of the most tormented and deranged souls that ever graced the battlefield.
This collection includes: 4 boxes of 5 Chaos Possessed, 1 Dark Apostle, 1 Helbrute and 2 Chaos Rhinos.
Nope. See my above comment. They allude to the usual (Planetstrike/Cities of Death strategems, Relics) and some vague comment about additional changes to make an army actual feel like Crimson Slaughter, but besides Possessed as troops there isn't anything else.
Thanks Wayne
And they still haven't learned that when you offer a bundle deal, you usually don't offer it at the same price as buying everything individually. Jebus...
And they still haven't learned that when you offer a bundle deal, you usually don't offer it at the same price as buying everything individually. Jebus...
But they save you all those costly mouse clicks!
Think of those poor people in parts of the world where they ration their mouse clicks and seconds!
Also, as mentioned ages ago, no god-specific add-ons & no Slaanesh weapon options like the FW sonic blaster (link) or blastmaster (link)
Shame :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the plasma cannon myself. Can't tell if these would fit a standard dreadnought chassis.
I already have 4 'hellbrutes' - 1x DV, 2x FW Nurgle & 1x FW Slaanesh (which I got for free as FW sent my Mum someone else's order one Christmas - btw she told FW but they said to keep it & they'd re-send the order to the right address!).
So don't really need one of these.
Anyone reckon FW will make god-specific add-ons?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just noticed that there's only 1 front chest plate - SM ones get loads of options here with different chest plates + add-on bits to make them even more variable.
Not vary chaotic if you decide to field more than one (but then again who would?)
Well gak, I was going to buy the old CSM battleforce as it had everything I wanted to start out CSM. Guess I'll have to look for it somewhere else before stock runs out.
Also, anyone have pics of the Raptors from the new battleforce from anywhere? Do they come with warp talon bits/option or are they just Raptors?
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
Umm, yes it is...
That's odd, I didn't think Chaos anything had access to the thunder hammer...
That’s one option laden kit for the helbrute. Is it missing anything?
Not that I have much to complain about as a codex marine player, but I’d love to have all my dread options in the kit. Would be cool if you heretics got everything you need.
I think I'll pick up one of these after seeing the sprue pics (thanks bubber for posting them!) It looks like something that will be easy to convert, so I can keep the elements I like while changing the ones I don't.
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
Funny that it is for the Hell brute, but not for the troops... One would suggest it would be for both as well, not to mention that some how they retained power weapons and no thunder..
It looks light magnetising the weapon options is going to be problematic with the wrinkly joints between the weapon joint to upper arm piece. If you're planning to go down this route you might need to raid the bits market for more upper arm pieces.
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
Helbrutes can be equipped with Power Fist, Power Scourge, or Thunder Hammer.
Nevelon wrote: That’s one option laden kit for the helbrute. Is it missing anything?
Not that I have much to complain about as a codex marine player, but I’d love to have all my dread options in the kit. Would be cool if you heretics got everything you need.
The only thing that looks to be missing is the heavy flamer option and of course decent rules.
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
Helbrutes can be equipped with Power Fist, Power Scourge, or Thunder Hammer.
Which, incidentally, are precisely the CCW options that came with the metal kit.
New Heavy weapon group or roll it in with Chosen, something.
My first army was Chaos.
I am uncertain why I find all this less than exciting... maybe because I have all the models and wonder:
"Why U No Make New Models??" (Except for the least competitive model in the force?)
Why a completely newcomer codex gets trotted out without anything completely different from all the other "traditional" chaos was bands?
Just looked at the pre-order page... really nothing to see here.
$60 for a supplement? Really?
GW really needs to reassess their stance on cost not mattering to the customer. I look at what they have and have zero issue with saying no to the whole thing.
I am actually disturbed about how little I care about this release, I am concerned for GW and hope they can find a means to generate more excitement.
I probably will get codex crimson slaughter, but is the limited edition really worth it? it just seems essentially the standard with a funky cover and a bit of ribbon!!
this supplement is good news for anyone who plays Beasts Of Annihilation though
I've been playing Chaos Marines since before they had a 3rd Edition Codex and sadly, this release barely interests me. I have Iron Warriors, Death Guard and a touch of Word Bearers from my Lost and the Damned army that GW took away from me. I have Deamons and renegade Guard as well.
I love the fluff of 40k in general and Chaos specifically but nothing about this release interests me. Heck, I haven't even played a game of 40k this edition. Forget these new Renegades, give me the Legions and the Long War.
I guess I'll have to stay with my Cryx army to get my bad guy fix.
The Crimson Slaughter seek to wash away their sins in a tide of blood. This collection allows you to join them now in the Long War to bring down the Imperium they once willingly served.
This collection includes: 1 copy of Crimson Slaughter: A Codex Supplement and 1 Helbrute.
The Helbrute is a plastic kit that is supplied unpainted and requires assembly - we recommend using Citadel Thin Plastic Glue and Citadel Paints.
$103.50 USD
Same price as buying separate. Why the hell haven't they figured out that even tossing a $5 discount on a bundle like this would actually move more product.
/same argument made with EVERy release...
From what I've been able to weasel out of GW reps, they cannot offer a "discount" on the bundle since it's not a single item bundled as one. It's just the two actual items being sold together.
That said, the "Chaos Space Marine Attack Force" is $255.75 USD worth of items for $205.
It goes to show that when it comes to an actual "bundle", where they have a box for the item they are starting to discount things.
Supposedly, in the white dwarf, theyr is a box saying: next week im alpharius. wonder what it means. Might be a hidden announcement for a cultist box, since in codex 3.5, alpha legion was the only legion who could take them
I find it rather fun that they go to such great lengths to pretend that the Legions are shattered and non-existent in 40k, and then release 5 of the 6 Helbrute pictures in Legion colours and iconography.
It's a decent enough model but I much prefer the armoured juggernaut look of the Forge World Chaos Dreadnoughts to the fleshy madness of these ones, particularly when applied to the Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors. I hope that the rumoured Havocs and Cultists are in the pipeline as well.
That said, the gesture is largely redundant unless the Codex introduces some pretty hefty buffs to Possessed and Helbrutes because as it stands, it's just about the worst foundations to an army.
Medium of Death wrote: You'd think, what with the Crimson Slaughter being recent converts to Chaos that they would have retained some Drop Pods or something...
Seriously! I can understand grav weapons, some land raider variants, and centurions, but everything else should be available!
But I do understand that this has been said before I. This thread
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mozzamanx wrote: I find it rather fun that they go to such great lengths to pretend that the Legions are shattered and non-existent in 40k, and then release 5 of the 6 Helbrute pictures in Legion colours and iconography.
It's a decent enough model but I much prefer the armoured juggernaut look of the Forge World Chaos Dreadnoughts to the fleshy madness of these ones, particularly when applied to the Thousand Sons and Iron Warriors. I hope that the rumoured Havocs and Cultists are in the pipeline as well.
That said, the gesture is largely redundant unless the Codex introduces some pretty hefty buffs to Possessed and Helbrutes because as it stands, it's just about the worst foundations to an army.
As you can see Kranon is a Special IC with 3 named artifacts, wonder if they are only for him or if you can get them for other Lords?...
Now i admit that we all went ballistic with this book and faction, its true its not what we waited and wanted , but now that its here might as well check the Fluff if its any interesting, and maybe outside the Possesed as troops thing, the Artifacts or any other additional rules, make it interesting to take as Allies.
Doesn't hurt to wait and see whats in store, don't have many options anyway.
Hellbrutes maintain the closes ties to the imperium, visiting yearly Dreadnought conventions and participating in "iron veteran"-days, therefore they have access to stuff that rest of chaos forces can't afford anymore, such as hammers and plasma cannons.
Nevelon wrote: That’s one option laden kit for the helbrute. Is it missing anything?
Not that I have much to complain about as a codex marine player, but I’d love to have all my dread options in the kit. Would be cool if you heretics got everything you need.
The only thing that looks to be missing is the heavy flamer option and of course decent rules.
From the GW site:
The power fists can be upgraded to include a combi-bolter or a heavy flamer and you can choose to power your Helbrutes’ weapons with pipes or blood tanks.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah, that is one of the dickiest move GW can do. They also did that with squat, chaos dwarves, dogs of war/mercenaries, kroot mercenary, the lost and the damned, genestealer cults, and maybe a few other.
That's why I pre-empted them and started armies that don't even have rules (Deathwatch, AdMech). Can't take away what you never had to begin with!
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
Funny that it is for the Hell brute, but not for the troops... One would suggest it would be for both as well, not to mention that some how they retained power weapons and no thunder..
Chaos Dreadnoughts, as massive war machines from the galaxy's past, were some of the only places that the huge power resources that the plasma cannon and thunder hammer could be housed, protected and yet remain mobile enough to be used in combat. Through the millennia, plasma technology was improved and reduced to a level that the cannon could be carried by a power armoured marine, and the same with thunder hammer technology. In fact, for a long time only tactical dreadnought armour was considered suitable for the thunder hammer, but technology must have made some further progress.
alienvalentine wrote: Anybody else notice GW is touting that there's a Thunder Hammer included on the sprue? That isn't even an option for a Helbrute in their codex, is it?
Funny that it is for the Hell brute, but not for the troops... One would suggest it would be for both as well, not to mention that some how they retained power weapons and no thunder..
Chaos Dreadnoughts, as massive war machines from the galaxy's past, were some of the only places that the huge power resources that the plasma cannon and thunder hammer could be housed, protected and yet remain mobile enough to be used in combat. Through the millennia, plasma technology was improved and reduced to a level that the cannon could be carried by a power armoured marine, and the same with thunder hammer technology. In fact, for a long time only tactical dreadnought armour was considered suitable for the thunder hammer, but technology must have made some further progress.
The havoc launcher was also something only dreads (or bigger) could take...and now it can't take it...heck even the defiler can take one and it can't even use it!!!
Wrecker wrote: Funny that it is for the Hell brute, but not for the troops... One would suggest it would be for both as well, not to mention that some how they retained power weapons and no thunder..
It's a call back to 2nd Ed.
In 2nd Ed Chaos Marines were actually of a lower tech-level than Loyalist Marines. Their plasma weapons overheated (the origin of the Gets Hot! rule in 3rd Ed), they didn't have access to Jump Packs or Power Sword (unless they paid 150% the cost), and Thunder Hammers were exceptionally rare, only available on Chaos Dreads.
Kanluwen wrote: From what I've been able to weasel out of GW reps, they cannot offer a "discount" on the bundle since it's not a single item bundled as one. It's just the two actual items being sold together.
Oh that is total bull gak. They set the prices, right? All they have to do is set it $5 lower than the total separate cost. You really believe they don't have the ability to do that?
Ok, so the pricing for this Chaos stuff is actually *highly* amusing to me.
So, for the Knight release, Australia got a fairly decent price; they didn't get screwed with an enormous markup, meanwhile, us in Soviet Canuckistan got a huge markup to the point where I know the FLGS's which do US pricing have sold out, and the sole GW still has most of theirs, as does any store which doesn't price match.
So, Chaos stuff comes along, what happens? The usual Aussie tax kicks back in, hard. $78 helbrute (and 54 US is a bit much for such a points-light and mediocre unit), $300 bundle, whereas back here in Canada, we're almost at a reasonable exchange rate, not quite, but the you don't live in 'murcia tax is slightly more restrained, and less, as a percentage, than the Knight was.
I find this both amusing, and proof that GW has no rational method of regionalizing prices. At least books are consistently 20% more, regardless of exchange rate, shipping, etc, they're jackasses, but consistent jackasses! GW, well, they're GW.
You get like usual a few pages of fluff, 2 pictures, 1 illustration and 2 "dioramas" but this time, something never seen before, you get One Altar of War mission.
The Mission is pretty classic, 3 objectives on the table, CS player deploys and plays first and all the secondary objectives, but..., there is something intersting, Spectrale Hurricane.
This Spectrale Hurricane makes you put a marker in the center of the table, at the begining of each of the CS player you roll 2D6, and the CS player can move the marker this much in any direction, each ennemy units in 12" of the Hurricane takes 2D6 S3 AP- hits.
Now its not Awesome or ultimate, buts its kinda funny.
bubber wrote: Also, as mentioned ages ago, no god-specific add-ons & no Slaanesh weapon options like the FW sonic blaster (link) or blastmaster (link)
Shame :(
Are either of those things in the Chaos Space Marine Codex?
TBH no, which again is a shame. Then again there are no cult termies, raptors, warp talons, bikers or havocs either.
They could have added these parts though so in the future GW had the option to do the 4 god lists that some of us really want.
It's weird that in IAA, FW have given us the ability to give marks to the chaos stuff in the book. I would love for my Hellbrutes to have the shrouded rule.
Kanluwen wrote: From what I've been able to weasel out of GW reps, they cannot offer a "discount" on the bundle since it's not a single item bundled as one. It's just the two actual items being sold together.
Oh that is total bull gak. They set the prices, right? All they have to do is set it $5 lower than the total separate cost. You really believe they don't have the ability to do that?
On consideration, it may not be an ability issue but a legal one...
I don't know about in the UK, but there are (or used to be, at least) rules here in Oz against selling combined product at lower prices that essentially boiled down to 'if you're going to off two of these for 'x' then the customer has to be allowed to buy one of them for half that amount...'
It came about as a result of the old practice of selling raffle tickets as, say, $1each or 3 for $2... some intelligent person decided that this was encouraging people to spend more, and therefore was bad. So if you sold 3 for $2, the customer had to have the option of buying 1 for a third of that price.
I'm not 100% sure it applies to everything, and as I said have no idea if it applies in any other countries... but it would be a valid reason for not selling bundles with a reduced price while things like battleforces (all packaged up in a single box) can offer a saving over the individual kits.
I doubt that's the case here, you can get "toofers" in any supermarket on any given day.
It is more likely linked to them believing their own hype of "not doing sales and never offering discounts" or whatever arrogant, pretentious way they phrase it.
It's weird that in IAA, FW have given us the ability to give marks to the chaos stuff in the book. I would love for my Hellbrutes to have the shrouded rule.
Khorne Dedicated Maulerfiends with Rage and Rampage..., me like it...
azreal13 wrote: I doubt that's the case here, you can get "toofers" in any supermarket on any given day.
But if it's illegal in some markets, not doing it in any of them would make a certain amount of sense. While they can justify regional pricing based on local economies (whether or not customers agree with that justification ) it would be harder to make discounted deals in some areas and not others fly as well with the punters. And would be more of a hassle for the book-keeping.
Read through the book... only 2 pages worth of actual rules.
Forsaken become troops, lose whatever the forsaken special rule is and gain a D3 roll at the start of their owning players turn. 1 = change from 'infantry' to 'beasts'. 2 = 3++, 3 = (I believe) always wounds on a 3+ and gains rending.
A few new items, the only one I recall specifically is a 2+ armor save, crusader and 'it will not die' for 40 points. There was another one that gave access to divination for 25 points.
The only warlord trait I thought was 'nice' was warlord gains shrouded.
Hope this helps!
Forsaken are Possesed i guess, a false translation, or maybe the name they get in the Book.
Now its a shame that this table replaces the Posseded usual table, would have been good to keep both.
Okay so this topic is 17 (or more depending how long i take to write this) pages long now so excuse me if i dont quote all the things im about to adress. lol.
First off. Hi, im new on the forums but ive been a 40k player since '98 and a CSM player since 2000. ( my first csm boxed unit was a 5 man short n fat plague marine set with a green border that i still have in my attic.)
Now someone Please point out the spot in the codices that specifically states ''CSM may not EVER choose options from the SM codex'' as far as i am aware this line does not exist, As such i have a nigh on 30000 point fully painted Word Bearers legion army Complete With landspeeders, whirlwinds, helbrutes dreadnoughts a thunderhawk gunship, mutiple droppods..... and any other units you can think of that GW 'strategically' left out of the CSM codices that Should by all rights be in there. Rules exist for these units and since the only real difference in rules on Any csm armoured vehicle is 'dirge casters' and 'daemonic possession' i fail to see why everybody thinks that you cant use them, or they somehow magically stopped working or got stolen. Lol.. Fluffwise. its pretty clear and even spelled out in many books. I.E 'word bearers the omnibus' that CSM legions will gleefully strip a battlefield bare of ANYTHING they could use for their next fight against the loyalists. Visuals-wise all they need is a coat of blood some heads on poles n some chains an skulls n a couple of 8 pointed stars and presto De-consecration achieved. So all those imobilised/ useless vehicles that had their crews killed off in the battle would be readily scooped up and herded into the ships on thunderhawks (the staple void to surface ship in the marines arsenal). Okay so my army might not get allowed in tournaments. But how many players actually do tournys? i would think the answer is in the minority. Chaos is Chaos we steal things and we make em chaosy and we use them against the loyalists we always have an we always will, so why dont more players think a bit more about it and create armies like my own? And dont any of you dare come back with 'thats like using tau units in a necron army' or something along those lines because it is nothing like that AT ALL. After all we are just Marines that Hate the emporor and love to kill stuff. But we are still Bloody space marines.
Rant over
Back to the topic at hand Lol..
Those new helbrute kits look awesome. and ill definately be buying a few as ive been wanting a helbrute that actually has a Tl-lascannon or a plasma cannon for ages.
Next that strikeforce box is a really good deal and i dont get why people are saying it is not a legal army because it Clearly is. Csm codex on chaos space marines. clearly states a unit consists of 1 champion and 4 marines. (additional marines are OPTIONAL).
Next.. im in complete agreement with everyone else on this crimson slaughter codex. i think they are clearly just trying to cater for the kids who bought dv and actually painted their army in CS colours -.- ... they really should get onto producing those legion based supplements and im not just saying that cos im a devout word bearer.. Lol As for plastic chosen / cultists boxes i would say those are still on the table and and Even More likely to get released now as they've FINALLY given us the plastic multipart helbrute with REAL options.
As for possessed as troops thats sound plausible but annoying as hell. woo 26 point troops hmm i think ill stick to Tarpitting with 40 man cultist blobs. Thanks anyway gw.
Interesting, following your logic one could use anything with any book just just cause none can prove the contrary.
Did you fail to read the rest of my comment? its nothing like using anything from any armys book. dude.. use your brain .. we are marines. its ALL marine wargear, armoured vehicles etc.. its Not like im suggesting that you take a necron monolith in a dark angels army. as that would be beyond Edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason. It really shouldn't be necessary for us to point out that circumventing it is inappropriate.
im simply saying engage brain, we are marines ACT like Marines and dust off those land speeders and convert some noise guns and skulls and chaos icons to the front for effect
Hell, Strap a wounded guardsmen with a skull for a face to the bottom atached by a chain and you can use him as decoration too.
Now someone Please point out the spot in the codices that specifically states ''CSM may not EVER choose options from the SM codex'' as far as i am aware this line does not exist,
Show me line that says you can? Your logic is riddiculous! if something not mentioned, then its okay? rightio my codex Dark Angels doesnt make any mention of me being able to take things from another codex, but because the book hasnt explicitly forbade it, Im going to use your logic to say I think we should be allowed Tervigons, and Riptides, and seer couincils... if only becasue the codex 'forgot' to forbid that.....
Erm nah I think you cant use anything whatsoeevr from codex space marines, because your playing codex chaos space marines. Its so self explanatory and obvious that Id say your are just trolling? but if you seriously cant understand why you cant just pick and choose what is in your codex form other books.. then I give up
Sounds to me asif you actually want to play codex space marines? theres nothing wrong with doing that and modeling them to be chaos looking. but if you wanted to take something exclusive to chaos with something exclusive to imperial marines in the same list, then no... just no! I'd never play against that unless you allow your opponent to take his pick of enemy codexes to take the best units from too.
TheOriginalKaotik wrote: Now someone Please point out the spot in the codices that specifically states ''CSM may not EVER choose options from the SM codex'' ...
That's not how it works. In order to take something from another codex, you're going to need a rule that says that you can.
...And dont any of you dare come back with 'thats like using tau units in a necron army' or something along those lines because it is nothing like that AT ALL.
Uh, no, it's exactly like that.
Each codex is a separate entity. You can only mix units between them as specifically allowed by the rules.
Its EXACTLY like what he says its not. Chaos space marines and imperial space marines are like black and white... theyre totally opposite, genuine arch enemies. Its like playing a WW2 game and using both german and british tanks in one army, explaingin it away ; oh theyre both humans, both european, whats the problem?!
You can take what ever is in that Codex or Codex supplement that goes with that Codex. Your allies can take whatever's in their Codex.
CSM can only ally with SM in Apocalypse games.
HOWEVER you can field some of (if not all) of your vehicles in HH games but then you'll need to buy these first.
Wow you all have the most limited imaginations. why is it. that i say use Marine based items. and sudddenly you think i mean grab some stuiff form any army you fancy. You are a marine. You should be using thunderhawks. They even Sell alpha legion etcetc door variants for you to add. You Should be using drop pods. how do you expect to make it to the ground with no flying trasnports? ( except overpriced khardybdis claws. But you could always use those chaos rules Anyway with a Basic drop pod and some icons.) IMAGINATION. CSM are the most fluffy kitbash freindly models gw sell. apart from Orks of course and they actually do have a specific rule to allow you to use wotever you want as long as its orky. lol the point is. its already there. weve been handed all the units on several overpriced plates. all your doing is seeing the middle plate and missing the gravy boat entirely. we can and do AS a rule.. as a faction. Rob and plunder assets from loyalists. so why are you argueing with something that actually helps you And stops you from complaining about lack of centurions (but who needs em) or lack of whirlwinds. I have used my army in regular and apoc battles in my local gw store before, the staff inside were impresed that i actually had the brains to do it. They didnt say i couldnt use the models wen i feilded some corpse strewn anti air vehicles to combat the flyers on his side. Just because it doesnt say you can. doesnt mean you cant. they game after all is completely IN OUR HEADS lol. Its all their to be used. you just need to have the courage to actually try them While vanilla marines and CSM Are black n white and factionally opposed.. the Vehicles are not affiliated with a faction and can be re utilised as and when they are needed. If they were not you wouldnt even have a rhino to plod along inside. cos oh no low n behold its got the same name as a loyalist rhino. Sigh...
azreal13 wrote: I doubt that's the case here, you can get "toofers" in any supermarket on any given day.
But if it's illegal in some markets, not doing it in any of them would make a certain amount of sense. While they can justify regional pricing based on local economies (whether or not customers agree with that justification ) it would be harder to make discounted deals in some areas and not others fly as well with the punters. And would be more of a hassle for the book-keeping.
No offense intended, but the UK and US are their two largest markets and both markets allow bundle discounts. If GW believed that discounting bundles were the way to go to increase overall sales and profits, then they would go this route and in the markets that did not allow the bundling they would maintain their current pricing practices. You should set pricing for each market, not a bland number across the board. They've shown this with their pricing for Australia in general. It's fairly safe to speculate that their reasoning to sell at MSRP to be for different reasons. Not much point in setting an MSRP if you are not going to follow it (I'm sure the independent stores would love to try and compete with GW for sales if GW did this, it'd kill the local stores margins even more). My apology for veering a little off topic here, I found this string to be quite interesting.
As for this CSM release, I find it disappointing. I was really hoping we'd see a new CSM troop box. But hey, now my Hellbrute's will at least look cooler before you blow it off the table!
Motograter wrote: All the legion vs renegades problems can be sorted rather easily in a very obvious fashion. Codex chaos legions and codex chaos renegades. 2 books,
Or even one book, with options to take razorbacks, stormravens, landspeeders and the like for renegades, and daemon engines for the Legions...
It was rumoured some time ago that they were going to do just that - one book for the Traitor Legions and one for more recent Renegades. HBMC's post illustrates that aside from cultists (which have a place in both, IMO) a good point of difference, and I'd like to see a proper take on a "transition" codex where certain vehicles like landspeeders and whirlwinds and such were still allowed but severely limited (due to parts or supply or whatever) but chaos'ed up a little while other things like Defilers and Soulgrinders and Heldrakes weren't available.
Imagination isn't the problem. Plenty of people make their own house rules... and what you are suggesting is fine, as a house rule.
It's presenting it as if the rules actually allow it that got you the response you got.
Okay so i mis-represented what i was tryin to say i apologize. i am not in anyway attempting to convey that the rules State that this is what you must do. im simply suggesting, since converted armies are quite common, that people stop complaining about not having whirlwinds etc and buy some and make them chaosy -.-
But in no way is this at all like trying to use xenos in a marine force. The way i see it codex : - CSM is just a supplement to Codex :- sm and then Every other suplement is supplementing those.
marines marines marines.. anything that says marine on it. as far as i can see. Is fair game. i would even go as far as saying you could use some eldar units in a Dark eldar army. BUT and i must streess this.. Not th opposite way around. logically. dark eldar Are evil so vanilla eldar wont be using Scourges. Ever. and a loyalist marine force would not EVER use a helbrute or mutatations. and a CSM force would never take a chaplain. But its Logic and common sense. keep to the fluff and keep to the intended design of the army and you are fine. as i stated before, my army in its complete entirety would never be useable in a tourny But more than half of it would. you could even go as far as saying that thanks to messed up warp time. your force has only been away for a hundred or so years since the heresy and still has a ton of old vehicles and ships all brand new and shiny and ready to use. (albeit rather warpified and gruesome to behold.) (cue genrous coatings of greenstuff ~slop~)
My Chaos Space Marines codex doesn't say I can't spread peanut butter on my chest and rub my opponent's models all over myself, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna. .
Brother SRM wrote: My Chaos Space Marines codex doesn't say I can't spread peanut butter on my chest and rub my opponent's models all over myself, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna. .
Interesting, following your logic one could use anything with any book just just cause none can prove the contrary.
Did you fail to read the rest of my comment? its nothing like using anything from any armys book. dude.. use your brain .. we are marines. its ALL marine wargear, armoured vehicles etc.. its Not like im suggesting that you take a necron monolith in a dark angels army. as that would be beyond Edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason. It really shouldn't be necessary for us to point out that circumventing it is inappropriate.
im simply saying engage brain, we are marines ACT like Marines and dust off those land speeders and convert some noise guns and skulls and chaos icons to the front for effect
Hell, Strap a wounded guardsmen with a skull for a face to the bottom atached by a chain and you can use him as decoration too.
Imagination isn't the problem. Plenty of people make their own house rules... and what you are suggesting is fine, as a house rule.
It's presenting it as if the rules actually allow it that got you the response you got.
Okay so i mis-represented what i was tryin to say i apologize. i am not in anyway attempting to convey that the rules State that this is what you must do. im simply suggesting, since converted armies are quite common, that people stop complaining about not having whirlwinds etc and buy some and make them chaosy -.-
But in no way is this at all like trying to use xenos in a marine force. The way i see it codex : - CSM is just a supplement to Codex :- sm and then Every other suplement is supplementing those.
marines marines marines.. anything that says marine on it. as far as i can see. Is fair game. i would even go as far as saying you could use some eldar units in a Dark eldar army. BUT and i must streess this.. Not th opposite way around. logically. dark eldar Are evil so vanilla eldar wont be using Scourges. Ever. and a loyalist marine force would not EVER use a helbrute or mutatations. and a CSM force would never take a chaplain. But its Logic and common sense. keep to the fluff and keep to the intended design of the army and you are fine. as i stated before, my army in its complete entirety would never be useable in a tourny But more than half of it would.
you could even go as far as saying that thanks to messed up warp time. your force has only been away for a hundred or so years since the heresy and still has a ton of old vehicles and ships all brand new and shiny and ready to use. (albeit rather warpified and gruesome to behold.) (cue genrous coatings of greenstuff ~slop~)
You're conflating fluff with rules, applying logic to an abstract game derived from a totally fictional background.
You've represented your point just fine, most of us just disagree with you outside of special scenarios or planned games in established groups.
You area Troll or not very bright, The codex says what you can take, if it is not there tough luck, you could use a normal space marine army rules and use chaos figures instead, but you still have to follow the rules.
You area Troll or not very bright, The codex says what you can take, if it is not there tough luck,
you seriously think like that? thats really saddening :( because you dont seriously expect the dark angels to only have acces to one DA specific flyer do you? since thats the only thing in their codex. but in actual fact you can happily use other SM flyers from the SM codex in games for said DA force. you arnt necessarily just confined to what Gw decide to put into one book. when they are making so many books for one set of guys ie marines.. of course they are going to leave a few units out if the rules for said units have not changed from the master book for said facton. Dark angels is the best example of Gws ploys.
P.s sorry insaniak i actually didnt realise that word was inapropriate.. and edited because i thought it looked out of place saying slowed in that spot i nthe sentance.
You haven't just brought a massive revelation with you on to the worlds largest wargaming community, you're aware of that right?
We know you could very reasonably justify many Marine units across various books, that isn't the point. The point is, this is a game, it has rules, the only way to successfully play the game with someone who you don't know is to use the same rules, not make some random nonsense up and then expect someone else to "get" it.
You've represented your point just fine, most of us just disagree with you outside of special scenarios or planned games in established groups.
that just makes me sad. :( because there is no real reason behind Not using said vehicles. apart form that GW didnt want to make the book have more rules and opted for fluff an history instead. But it isnt just Random nonsense. is it.. its completely logical and fits all the books stories etc. if id said of this landraider has been converted to have 26 battlecannons thatd be random nonsense. but im actually not interfering with any pre written rules. i've never met any players who were opposed to regular space marine vehicles not listed in a csm codex being used before. pre planned game or not. so i am pretty confused as to why no one else fluffs their armes to be more 'realistic' and more inline with the lore. on a seperate note its 4am here and i just ordered my helbrute box :3
that just makes me sad. :( because there is no real reason behind Not using said vehicles. apart form that GW didnt want to make the book have more rules and opted for fluff an history instead.
But it isnt just Random nonsense. is it.. its completely logical and fits all the books stories etc.
i've never met any players who were opposed to regular space marine vehicles not listed in a csm codex being used before. pre planned game or not. so i am pretty confused as to why no one else fluffs there armes to be more 'realistic' and more inline with the lore.
What you're missing is that it isn't about saving room in the codexes at all. Otherwise why would rhinos and razorbacks be included in every marine codex, while storm ravens are not?
Different armies have different options. That's a deliberate design choice, in order to make each army distinct.
If every marine army has the same options, there is no point having more than one marine codex.
Different armies have different options. That's a deliberate design choice, in order to make each army distinct.
If every marine army has the same options, there is no point having more than one marine codex.
But they Already have the same options Barring one or two oversights by gw. for example weapons, armour, Most vehicles. The Real distinction is in the characters and special rules. Not in the vehicle units. so why so much hostility towards fixing spikes to crusader pattern land raiders? etc painting them red (for me anyway) adding a 8 point star and using them in a perfectly normal everyday 40k game. Really gw should consolidate all those missing vehicles into a nice big new csm codex. as well as the renegades and the legion stuff like everybody has been saying. i mean why even take those. no reason for it. its not trying to make chaos distinctly diferent. because we have thousand sons, plague marines and Faildrakes for that. and vanilla have their shiny shriny ( yes i said Shrine- y) things atached to many of their vehicles ( until i file them off and replace em with skulls haha) and golden wings on saguinary guard etc. those are the disctinctions. the Missing vehicles are just that. Missing. but the rules exist still and as i said before the only difference rules wise for those is dirge casters and daemonic possession.
i'm not a troll im just a confused person wondering why no one actually creates a proper army and instead complain about stuff they can fix/make themselves. and my first post was also about this topic. 'new chaos releases' i cant wait till my helbrute arrives i have many conversion ideas for him and im so thankful the new kit for him Doesnt have those weird boney tencle thingys that was very Ero-guro o.0 lol He may not be very competitive but he looks great and word bearers should have many daemonic warped things so i gotta get one
"You can have everything that the loyalists get, and then all of this other cool stuff" lasted for two books. That was back in 1988 and 1990. Between then and 1996, the books advanced the idea that "Hey, to be a credible game Chaos should have to give up some of the other stuff in exchange for the cool stuff it's getting. Otherwise there's no point in ever playing loyalists."
So the reason why you're being added to ignore lists as I write this is that you're at least twenty years late to the party.
Read through the book... only 2 pages worth of actual rules.
Forsaken become troops, lose whatever the forsaken special rule is and gain a D3 roll at the start of their owning players turn. 1 = change from 'infantry' to 'beasts'. 2 = 3++, 3 = (I believe) always wounds on a 3+ and gains rending.
A few new items, the only one I recall specifically is a 2+ armor save, crusader and 'it will not die' for 40 points. There was another one that gave access to divination for 25 points.
The only warlord trait I thought was 'nice' was warlord gains shrouded.
Hope this helps!
Forsaken are Possesed i guess, a false translation, or maybe the name they get in the Book.
Now its a shame that this table replaces the Posseded usual table, would have been good to keep both.
I'm sceptical. That new chart would invalidate them taking MoT, and I don't think GW would do such a thing...
My Ork army just gained access to EVERY vehicle in the game
As for the topic at hand does anybody else miss when you could pick up a WD for $10 CDN and it had more then 2 pages of rues in it? Back in 3rd they had full army lists in a single issue (feral Orks/Kroot Mercs)
I remember back in 3rd they released a ton of rules for chaos legions as well as the loyalists each month in WD. I remember he Iron Warriors, and Night Lords ones really standing out to me.
My Ork army just gained access to EVERY vehicle in the game
Now you are geting it Except dark eldar/eldar vehicles because those would be Waaay too flimsy for a great big orc nob to sit in. he'd probably break it or itd be too heavy for the anti grav to work Lol. But seriously orks do get access to every vehicle in game. Near enough. Okay they are Not quite up to par with the true versions, but thanks to your looted wagons special rule you can orkify anything and use it legally. Thats what im geting on about. We should have a looted wagon rule specific to marine vehicles. thats lets us feild them with some drawbacks. less armour, slowed movement, weapons that have a chance to overheat. it would work.
Also i totally remember the WD's you are on about. i miss the old white dwarf i have a collection of all the old 'White Dwarf' models. And all their relevent pages for the rules they set for them back then those were the days. but with them moving to a weekly edition its not too surprising that they are adding more crap to the mag and leaving out so much rules ideas.
Wrote :- Slayer le boucher wrote: A user on Faiet 212 posted this;
MAAkselMarch 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM
Read through the book... only 2 pages worth of actual rules.
Forsaken become troops, lose whatever the forsaken special rule is and gain a D3 roll at the start of their owning players turn. 1 = change from 'infantry' to 'beasts'. 2 = 3++, 3 = (I believe) always wounds on a 3+ and gains rending.
A few new items, the only one I recall specifically is a 2+ armor save, crusader and 'it will not die' for 40 points. There was another one that gave access to divination for 25 points.
The only warlord trait I thought was 'nice' was warlord gains shrouded.
Hope this helps!
Forsaken are Possesed i guess, a false translation, or maybe the name they get in the Book.
Now its a shame that this table replaces the Posseded usual table, would have been good to keep both.
I'm sceptical. That new chart would invalidate them taking MoT, and I don't think GW would do such a thing...
Mark of Tzeentch: + 1 invulnerable save. Psykers must generate at least one power from the Discipline of Tzeentch. .. what exactly about that is negated? roll a one and beasts move differently. roll a 2 and get 3++ now IF thats invulnable MoT Still brings that down to a 2++ so not invalid.. if it means 3+ armour then after daemon rule your invuln is still 4++ with MoT (doubtful as they already get 3+ armour saves, Or 2_ if wot else he said was correct and about the possessed.) and roll a 3 and you get Always wounds on 3+ and no armour on a 6...
sounds pretty good to me, but i dont see where the MoT is being invalidated. Actually rolling a 2 IF this is correct would be extremely overpowered. unkillable possessed o.0 possesed might do well if they had some way to get to the frontlines without being shot lol. deepstrike/infiltrate would be useful for them.
Wrote :-
Slayer le boucher wrote:
A user on Faiet 212 posted this;
MAAkselMarch 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM
Read through the book... only 2 pages worth of actual rules.
Forsaken become troops, lose whatever the forsaken special rule is and gain a D3 roll at the start of their owning players turn. 1 = change from 'infantry' to 'beasts'. 2 = 3++, 3 = (I believe) always wounds on a 3+ and gains rending.
A few new items, the only one I recall specifically is a 2+ armor save, crusader and 'it will not die' for 40 points. There was another one that gave access to divination for 25 points.
The only warlord trait I thought was 'nice' was warlord gains shrouded.
Hope this helps!
Forsaken are Possesed i guess, a false translation, or maybe the name they get in the Book.
Now its a shame that this table replaces the Posseded usual table, would have been good to keep both.
I'm sceptical. That new chart would invalidate them taking MoT, and I don't think GW would do such a thing...
Mark of Tzeentch: + 1 invulnerable save. Psykers must
generate at least one power from the Discipline of Tzeentch. .. what exactly about that is negated? roll a one and beasts move differently. roll a 2 and get 3++ now IF thats invulnable MoT Still brings that down to a 2++ so not invalid.. if it means 3+ armour then after daemon rule your invuln is still 4++ with MoT (doubtful as they already get 3+ armour saves) and roll a 3 and you get Always wounds on 3+ and no armour on a 6...
sounds pretty good to me, but i dont see where the MoT is being invalidated.
possesed might do well if they had some way to get to the frontlines without being shot lol. deepstrike/infiltrate would be useful for them.
Did you read the MoT entry? I mean the part that comes directly after the part where they get +1 to their invul save? It says: (to a maximum of 3+)
Getting a 3++ save doesn't give you 2++, it just makes them 3++ and gives you the feeling of having wasted a few points on MoT...
Did you read the MoT entry? I mean the part that comes directly after the part where they get +1 to their invul save? It says: (to a maximum of 3+)
doh -.- just shows you im tired ... I always read the Very back of the book.. i forgot it was on page 30 in more detail. so i guess the answer is. no i didnt read that part haha. and i sorta remebered it was there but i thought the max was 2++ cos i never bother to check it and none of my models have ever had to worry about doing that. That is pretty weird though. But it would not be the first completely nonsensical negation. for example Lord in term armour get a 5++ invuln but if hes got a sigil the armour is negated.. but then improved down to a 4++ ( or the max i guess with a mark.) thats a similar situation. but maybe you could think of it as a reason to make them Nurgle possessed
thinking like that though. that sounds like the reason they Would let it slide. as its a roll on a table and not set in stone as it were.
But, 33% is enough for GW as you have higher chances to not get maxed. Also depends on how the table works. If its similar to the vessels table and you are meant to roll at the start of a fight sub phase. then theyd have more reason to let it slide. as then youd have a 66% chance per turn to Not get that. but if its a table only rolled once it would suck a little but still isnt so bad. as thats only what 3 cultists you cant field. ( depending on the size of your possessed group of course) speaking of possessed i wish the ywould fix the 'single close combat weapon' thing.. surely the yshould get two weapons. seeing as they have blades n claws for limbs.
True that. ill no doubt end up taking it off the shelf and flicking through before replacing it then walking out again lol. heres hoping for something redeemble in the codex though. so it doesnt just end up being the 'oh we should give those kids who bought DV a codex' codex.
The hellbrute is nice enough (I don't like the fleshy legs though), but where are the Chosen? Since the Dark Vengeance I've waited multi-part Chosen box to properly start my chaos army. The old, ugly spiky-marines just won't do.
Crimson wrote: The hellbrute is nice enough (I don't like the fleshy legs though), but where are the Chosen? Since the Dark Vengeance I've waited multi-part Chosen box to properly start my chaos army. The old, ugly spiky-marines just won't do.
£60 to play the crimson slaughter for existing players? Bloody hell!
So, GW, I'm a new player in the UK that wants to play Crimson slaughter in 40k. Let's assume I buy everything brand new. What do I need?
Codex Crimson slaughter £30
Codex Chaos Space Marines £30
Chaos space marine attack force £120
Paints and brushes Including spray undercoat). Let's say £40 at a conservative estimate.
Rulebook: mini copy for £15?
= grand total of £235!! That's what I make working 40 hours a week on minimum wage. And that's before I lose a massive chunk to tax and transport costs.
Even If I looked for cheaper paints on ebay or bought Vallejo or whatever, or just used the DV contents for my chaos force (barely a 1000 points) it's still a fair whack.
No wonder GW profits are dropping and no wonder I play FOW.
£60 to play the crimson slaughter for existing players? Bloody hell!
So, GW, I'm a new player in the UK that wants to play Crimson slaughter in 40k. Let's assume I buy everything brand new. What do I need?
Codex Crimson slaughter £30
Codex Chaos Space Marines £30
Chaos space marine attack force £120
Paints and brushes Including spray undercoat). Let's say £40 at a conservative estimate.
Rulebook: mini copy for £15?
= grand total of £235!! That's what I make working 40 hours a week on minimum wage. And that's before I lose a massive chunk to tax and transport costs.
Even If I looked for cheaper paints on ebay or bought Vallejo or whatever, or just used the DV contents for my chaos force (barely a 1000 points) it's still a fair whack.
No wonder GW profits are dropping and no wonder I play FOW.
You actually complain about the price of a full playable army with codex and supplement as a one payment deal?
Its an ongoing hobby, you dont need to get a full army a month to play.
In fact, i think you get more pleasure out of it if you dont try eating all the candy at once.
Crimson wrote: The hellbrute is nice enough (I don't like the fleshy legs though), but where are the Chosen? Since the Dark Vengeance I've waited multi-part Chosen box to properly start my chaos army. The old, ugly spiky-marines just won't do.
Ye know, releases span multiple weeks.
Maybe. This is not a full codex release. However, let's hope you're right and we get Chosen next week.
Crimson wrote: The hellbrute is nice enough (I don't like the fleshy legs though), but where are the Chosen? Since the Dark Vengeance I've waited multi-part Chosen box to properly start my chaos army. The old, ugly spiky-marines just won't do.
Ye know, releases span multiple weeks.
Maybe. This is not a full codex release. However, let's hope you're right and we get Chosen next week.
or the week after oor the week after that. theres 3 more weeks in this month by the way. its only the end of week 1.
TheOriginalKaotik wrote: Now someone Please point out the spot in the codices that specifically states ''CSM may not EVER choose options from the SM codex'' as far as i am aware this line does not exist
Rules are generally permissive. It has to say you can take something, not say you can't take something. By your logic you could take anything in any army, because it never says you can't.
There was an asteroid that was about to do a near-miss of Earth earlier this week. A bit before it went by, it vanished from NASA's scopes. It took 'em a while to figure out why, but then they saw that as it got closer to the sun it started to spin faster and faster until it shook itself apart, and became nothing but fragments.
Think on that for a while, fresh faced new member.
TheOriginalKaotik wrote: Now someone Please point out the spot in the codices that specifically states ''CSM may not EVER choose options from the SM codex'' as far as i am aware this line does not exist
Rules are generally permissive. It has to say you can take something, not say you can't take something. By your logic you could take anything in any army, because it never says you can't.
There was an asteroid that was about to do a near-miss of Earth earlier this week. A bit before it went by, it vanished from NASA's scopes. It took 'em a while to figure out why, but then they saw that as it got closer to the sun it started to spin faster and faster until it shook itself apart, and became nothing but fragments.
Think on that for a while, fresh faced new member.
This particular part of conversation was requested stopped by a mod 4 hours ago. You think on that for a while. Cos I dont really care anymore.
But to stay On Topic... This plastic kit makes one Helbrute with a massive array of weapon combinations. The left arm can be equipped with a thunder hammer, power scourge, missile launcher or power fist. The right arm has the option to equip a power fist, twin-linked heavy bolter, twin-linked lascannon, reaper autocannon, multi-melta or plasma cannon.
Poseable at the waist and shoulders, this kit is packed with options for customisation. Your Helbrute can look in different directions with a choice of 6 ball jointed heads. (woo many heads) There are also 3 sets of horns ( awesome) for the sarcophagus and 2 shoulder pads for the left arm. The power fists can be upgraded to include a combi-bolter or a heavy flamer and you can choose to power your Helbrutes’ weapons with pipes or blood tanks . ( good news all the pipe haters. blood tanks are not as good looking imho though. )
looking at the contents of the new strike force in more detail.. im now wondering if the term lord included comes with his normal array of sprues and accessories. most importantly i wonder if the optional Term Sorcerer parts are in their too. cos thatd be sweet.
TheOriginalKaotik wrote: But to stay On Topic... This plastic kit makes one Helbrute with a massive array of weapon combinations. The left arm can be equipped with a thunder hammer, power scourge, missile launcher or power fist. The right arm has the option to equip a power fist, twin-linked heavy bolter, twin-linked lascannon, reaper autocannon, multi-melta or plasma cannon.
As anyone with eyes would be able to read in their codex, yes...
i just linked the whole product descrip. was easier. Meh still havnt slept. I know That part was in the codex already. I was talking about the customization options.
I've been collecting chaos models for the past 8 years now, and I am in no way finished with my army... I look forward to any codex/supplements I can actually use (instead of every other Loyalist/Xenos book that wastes a month of my time) and create a new list to use with the scraps of Models I don't utilize in my primary list.
Maybe that is what these books are really for.
Lets face it, if this is all we are getting, there's gonna be about 6-8 months of nothing for us in the future...
agnosto wrote: Yeah, I'm late to the party but seriously, another separate rule book/Codex?
I now feel like death in the following:
Meh. They're entirely optional and don't actually contain a whole lot of rules, so i personally don't see them as a big issue. I actually wish they would make more, with perhaps a little bit more rules in them. But that's just my opinion.
agnosto wrote: Yeah, I'm late to the party but seriously, another separate rule book/Codex?
I now feel like death in the following:
Meh. They're entirely optional and don't actually contain a whole lot of rules, so i personally don't see them as a big issue. I actually wish they would make more, with perhaps a little bit more rules in them. But that's just my opinion.
But they're not optional because people can take them. Sure, it's optional for me to buy them but all of these dataslates and mini-dexes are official, legal rules. Options are good but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of tiny add-ons coming out that I'll know nothing about in a pick-up game. I'll try to make an all-comer's list but won't be ready for some of this stuff. Before, I just had to know my codex and the basic rules but now we're getting things that break the basic rules or circumvent force orgs. Sure there were things like that before but they didn't come out weekly; I could just ask to see my opponent's codex and we'd move on. Now it's going to be, "Here's my codex, here's the dataslate for this thing, the dataslate for this other thing and the min-dex for this third thing..."
Tau codex, Farsight codex, riptide formation dataslate, allied to IG with a Knight tacked on... ick.
looking at the contents of the new strike force in more detail.. im now wondering if the term lord included comes with his normal array of sprues and accessories. most importantly i wonder if the optional Term Sorcerer parts are in their too. cos thatd be sweet.
Well duh, they don't hire people to go through every Terminator Lord kit, cut out the bits that might be used for Sorcerer models, and sell you the incomplete sprues.
Hmmm, a new codex for a new faction/army. I'll hold off any "nays" or "yeas" until i see it. Been wanting to look at the new supplement codices, ie. Black Legion, Sent. of Terra, for my idea of what kind of SM and CSM I have in mind. Maybe this one will be what I am looking for my Red Corsairs. One thing though, GW is moving new codices fast. If these new ones I don't want, GW will be out with a new codex soon.
You know at first I was pretty pissed off about Crimson Slaughter and but after hearing about the bonuses possessed get and some of new relics I'm kinda thinking of allying in a small force for fun, I've got some possessed I'll toss in some Warp Talons and a beefed out lord (apparently they've got a weapon that gets stronger as you gank people)
I mean it's not going to win a tournament but it might be a fun albeit expensive distraction to toss at some people.
I shouldn't panic too much. The IG are listed for release on the 5th April, so still 2-3 weeks (depending on whether we've seen the first/second wave) of potential chaos.
I am midly disappointed they have a new chaos terminator box and chaos space marines box. Literally, the box. Not the contents. CSMs are slightly more expensive now, too. It's actually cheaper to get 10 Khorne Berzerkers now.
Reason I'm disappointed is it means we're not going to get a new updated kit for them after all. Still hope for some official Chosen models though... here's holding out hope.
Paradigm wrote: I shouldn't panic too much. The IG are listed for release on the 5th April, so still 2-3 weeks (depending on whether we've seen the first/second wave) of potential chaos.
I doubt they'd release the "secondary" codex before the real Astra Militarum codex though, and didn't it say that there was more knightly goodness next week?
Wait, how do we have this, and yet no leaks of the rumored Chaos Chosen?
Crap. Could those rumors have been totally off? This WD says the products will be available for pre-order on the 29th.
So.. We got this weekend of the 7th with the Helbrute pre-orders...
Then next weekend will be the 15th, presumably with Chosen preorders...
Then after that is the 22nd, which I suspect would be Astra Miltarum preorders...
And finally should be the 29th, which are the Militarum Tempestus pre-orders...
looking at the contents of the new strike force in more detail.. im now wondering if the term lord included comes with his normal array of sprues and accessories. most importantly i wonder if the optional Term Sorcerer parts are in their too. cos thatd be sweet.
Well duh, they don't hire people to go through every Terminator Lord kit, cut out the bits that might be used for Sorcerer models, and sell you the incomplete sprues.
But then if thats true. Why not list the contents As 5 Raptors Or Warp talons.. instead of 5 raptors.. and why not say 1 Term lord Or 1 Term sorceror instead of just saying lord. Also the Forgefiend. just says Forgefiend so is that going to actually be all the sprues and actually be a maulerfeind Too, Or is it 'exactly what it says on the tin' to quote a certain wood sealant ad.
If it is Just what is decribed and nothing more, that Would certainly give them an excuse and a reason for why they will box these together and slightly cheaper than the seperate box sets.
They aren't really something you can just "split up" like that, and I seriously doubt that GW would re-cut the sprues this soon after releasing the kit for the first time.
They aren't really something you can just "split up" like that, and I seriously doubt that GW would re-cut the sprues this soon after releasing the kit for the first time.
Hell, if it really is all there thats great, I guess im just paranoid with this being GW 'Money Grabbers Extraordinaires'.
TheOriginalKaotik wrote: But then if thats true. Why not list the contents As 5 Raptors Or Warp talons.. instead of 5 raptors.. and why not say 1 Term lord Or 1 Term sorceror instead of just saying lord. Also the Forgefiend. just says Forgefiend so is that going to actually be all the sprues and actually be a maulerfeind Too, Or is it 'exactly what it says on the tin' to quote a certain wood sealant ad.
If it is Just what is decribed and nothing more, that Would certainly give them an excuse and a reason for why they will box these together and slightly cheaper than the seperate box sets.
You're splitting hairs.
The kits come as the kits are. To do something else would require someone to purposefully clip the parts of the sprue (not going to happen) or for them to make a new mould (also not going to happen).
So according to rumors of the new chart for Possessed they changed it to before Movement Phase and not before Fight phase?
Movement options are cool, but then we are stuck with their Standard profile in CC? I'm hoping there's something missing here.
But on a side note, I've just developed my own (quite literal) "Forsaken", and took a bunch of un-used/broken Marine models out of the collection to convert up into my Possessed! Narrative: FORGED!
I really like the conversions they've got going on for regular CSM in this weeks WD.
The back cover is actually very nice too. Kind of shows the uniformity of the new Chaos models, which is nice. Leaves things like the current CSM & Terminators (as well as Legion stuff) in the dust a bit though.
Medium of Death wrote: I really like the conversions they've got going on for regular CSM in this weeks WD.
The back cover is actually very nice too. Kind of shows the uniformity of the new Chaos models, which is nice. Leaves things like the current CSM & Terminators (as well as Legion stuff) in the dust a bit though.
So your saying that there is new CSM models? Or converted?
We can't store published white dwarf pictures on Dakka can we?
I'll get them scanned up and store them somewhere else. Anybody have any file sharing recommendations? I remember somebody suggesting a site that wasn't frequently worked blocked but I forget.
I still don't understand how people are delusional enough to think that new possessed chart would make them viable.
Random movement is never a good thing. The other ones hardly ever make them any better at what usually is shooting at them anyway.
But then if thats true. Why not list the contents As 5 Raptors Or Warp talons.. instead of 5 raptors.. and why not say 1 Term lord Or 1 Term sorceror instead of just saying lord. Also the Forgefiend. just says Forgefiend so is that going to actually be all the sprues and actually be a maulerfeind Too, Or is it 'exactly what it says on the tin' to quote a certain wood sealant ad.
If it is Just what is decribed and nothing more, that Would certainly give them an excuse and a reason for why they will box these together and slightly cheaper than the seperate box sets.
Stop being so thick. There's only so much room on the box to list everything,
We can't store published white dwarf pictures on Dakka can we?
I'll get them scanned up and store them somewhere else. Anybody have any file sharing recommendations? I remember somebody suggesting a site that wasn't frequently worked blocked but I forget.
Use Imgur.com - it is work friendly and a good hosting site.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So according to rumors of the new chart for Possessed they changed it to before Movement Phase and not before Fight phase?
Movement options are cool, but then we are stuck with their Standard profile in CC? I'm hoping there's something missing here.
But on a side note, I've just developed my own (quite literal) "Forsaken", and took a bunch of un-used/broken Marine models out of the collection to convert up into my Possessed! Narrative: FORGED!
Well, if posessed actually change to beasts in one of the results, as the rumor has it, you would run in to some serious issues with transports.
Dont know if the rules cover proper disembarkation when a unit suddenly is unable to ride in the vehicle
You can't really plan a game around 1/3rd of the time your models moving as beasts OR infantry. It's still pretty pointless esp since you can't assault out of a stationary transports.
Kirasu wrote: You can't really plan a game around 1/3rd of the time your models moving as beasts OR infantry. It's still pretty pointless esp since you can't assault out of a stationary transports.
Yep. I mean, we don't have the whole wording of the rule yet. We might be missing the part where it says "Treat the Possessed as 'Beasts' for the purposes of movement, though their unit type remains Infantry." or something like that.
Cool video for sure, but I just don't understand the thought process at G-dub. The Helbrute model is very nice, to say the least, but the only people that are going to buy them are the hardcore modelers and painters. I haven't seen a Helbrute in a single tourney list or even in any pick up games because the rules for that unit are so horribly bad and/or there are just better choices in the codex under that unit type.
If G-dub expects to sell this model in droves, then they HAVE to re-write the current rules for it or at least add additional rules that make it a viable option in game.
sub-zero wrote: I haven't seen a Helbrute in a single tourney list or even in any pick up games because the rules for that unit are so horribly bad and/or there are just better choices in the codex under that unit type.
The mistake you make is thinking that the people writing the rules know and/or understand and/or care about this.
sub-zero wrote: I haven't seen a Helbrute in a single tourney list or even in any pick up games because the rules for that unit are so horribly bad and/or there are just better choices in the codex under that unit type.
The mistake you make is thinking that the people writing the rules know and/or understand and/or care about this.
Correction, the modelers who don't care what happens so long as they get to put out models. It resulted in the tragedy as the dinobots afterall.
Modelers make what they want, then the rulebooks have to figure out some way of using it.
Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
If "advance" means-
Cram another stupid renegade chapter into a timeline that's already crammed with better renegade chapters, then Yes thank GW for the awesome advancement
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
Squigsquasher wrote: Funny how people have been yelling at GW for years to "ADVANCE THE STORY!!!11!!!ONE!!11" but yet when they actually do, and introduce a new major renegade chapter, everybody groans about it.
If "advance" means-
Cram another stupid renegade chapter into a timeline that's already crammed with better renegade chapters, then Yes thank GW for the awesome advancement
My thoughts exactly.
I think GW would have been way better served putting out rules for running legion specific armies. However. They would have had to have written 18 pages of rules instead of just two pages of rules. THis would have cut into the amount of useless color photos of models painted by heavy metal, and would have required more effort than someone spending an evening cranking out poorly written fluff. From their twisted perspective, this would have required more effort, and more overhead, therefore its a bad idea. (this is despite the fact that almost all chaos players would have slurped up a legion specific codex.)
Must be that they don't want a legions codex because it might create balance issues in the game.
Yeah, I used to be a Helbrute fan, even tried using a couple for a long time. You're forced to take a mixed model with the random table, and in this game trying to be a jack of all trades doesn't really work too well. The Power Scourge looks good at first, but then you realize the WS chart is stupid and won't affect much. The armor is just low enough that a dedicated CC unit will tear it apart and it's damage output won't help much against any unit. I mean it's a cheap throw away walker. Upgrading it removes the cheap aspect of it, so it makes the new kits kind of pointless. If you were running a helbrute you were most likely running it stock anyways.
Medium of Death wrote: Seeing the 360 of the 'brute, especially the power scourge, is really nice.
Yeah, the 360 is cool, I was afraid the back looked just as terrible as the DV brute but apparently that's not the case at all. Still a pretty underwhelming release, though...one new model, which is terrible in-game and as such won't be more than a one-off purchase at best, and a bunch of re-packages no one asked for, with unnecessary price increases to boot. The "attack force" is okay I guess, at least it provides an actual savings, though I still can't help looking at the contents of the box and thinking "Is that really all you get for $200?" Like others I kinda hope this isn't it and there are a couple more boxes going up for pre-order next week but I highly doubt it.
Speaking of new boxes no one wanted, Chaos bikers are getting re-released too, and it's the weirdest damn thing I've ever seen because they just got re-packaged with the new box design, and GW's changed it again after barely a year (instead of a boring shot of the models lined up next to each other they repositioned the models to look like the squad is coming at you, with one guy in the center and the others flanking him...you can see the new box on the product page on GW's site)...and surprisingly enough it didn't go up in price, it's still $40. Can anyone explain that one? And it's not for a new paint job either since the ones on the old box were also red.
If we see no Chosen/Havocs next week wasnt there a rumour about a possible summer campaign with the crimson slaughter and dark angels.
What`s to say the chosen/havocs wont be released then should we get nothing next week.
Obviously this could happen if the rumours are true, they are rather old but still there could yet be chosen one way or the other
Sidstyler wrote: i]one[/i] new model, which is terrible in-game and as such won't be more than a one-off purchase at best, and a bunch of re-packages no one asked for, with unnecessary price increases to boot
Before I say it, let me be clear that this is not an attack at you.. Just borrowing your words to make an observation: What you said above is exactly why GW will keep doing releases like this.. because those one-off purchases are what they like.. Of course, everyone already knows this.
? You couldn't write a better joke.
Kirby is too busy running the company to be cutting bits off of sprue.
