CODEX: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER (ENGLISH) 1 £30,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE SQUAD 1 £23,50
CHAOS SPACE MARINE HELBRUTE 1 £33,00
CHAOS BIKERS 1 £21,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE ATTACK FORCE 1 £120,00
CHAOS RHINO 1 £23,50
CHAOS TERMINATOR LORD 1 £15,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE RAPTORS 1 £21,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE FORGEFIEND 1 £41,00
CHAOS LAND RAIDER 1 £46,00
CHAOS TERMINATORS 1 £28,00
VISIONS OF HERESY (ENGLISH) 1 £45,00
WHITE DWARF WEEKLY 7 (ENGLISH) 1 £2,40
This is what i got so take it with salt if necessary
This is the list GW has been sending out for the CSM. Obviously some are old stuff but the Attack Force and the Codex is new so that's sth.
Edit 1: Images of Hellbrutes that has been around for a while
Spoiler:
Brother SRM wrote: It's pretty obvious Codex: Crimson Slaughter will be the same sort of digital supplement release as Codex: Black Legion. If you don't like it, don't buy it. As for Chaos bikes and Chaos Space Marines in there, maybe we're getting new kits to go along with the new Hellbrute kit? I think it's pertinent that there are pictures of said Hellbrute in this thread too, for those not in the know:
Edit 2 : Contents of the Attack Force - Correct version via Kroot
pretre wrote: via a reader on Faeit 212
I managed to get a look at the new White Dwarf. The Crimson Slaughter have the usual relics, warlords traits and so on. The Force Org change is that you can take Possessed as Troops.
Edit 6 : White Dwarf page of the Attack Force
Spoiler:
Brother SRM wrote: Confirmation that there aren't new Chaos Space Marines:
- 72pp codex
- Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions
- Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems
- Crimson Slaughter Army List: Possessed CSMs can be taken as TROOPS
Edit 9 : Possible Later Release- Although this really compresses releases if true.
Spoiler:
Checked with BOLS, they still claim there will be Chosen and Havocs and even something else.
The following week (March 15 pre-orders, March 22nd release) we will see the following:
- CSM Chosen plastic kit
- CSM Havocs plastic kit
If you recall a couple of months ago there was talk of a fourth CSM mini set coming to plastic alongside the other three.
The earlier chatter pointed to a Chaos Cultists kit.
The latest chatter has seen the Cultist talk die down and Oblit talk uptick a bit, but the jury is still out.[/qoute]
Edit 10 : Photos of the new releases
Spoiler:
BrassScorpion wrote: Advance Orders for Codex Crimson Slaughter, the new Helbrute, new Attack Force and related merchandise are now up on the GW website.
Prices on several existing Chaos Space Marine kits have gone up about $2 US in most cases. Example: Forgefiend up to $68 US from $66, Raptors up to $35 from $33.
The Crimson Slaughter seek to wash away their sins in a tide of blood. This collection allows you to join them now in the Long War to bring down the Imperium they once willingly served.
This collection includes: 1 copy of Crimson Slaughter: A Codex Supplement and 1 Helbrute.
The Helbrute is a plastic kit that is supplied unpainted and requires assembly - we recommend using Citadel Thin Plastic Glue and Citadel Paints.
$103.50 USD
Same price as buying separate. Why the hell haven't they figured out that even tossing a $5 discount on a bundle like this would actually move more product.
THE STORY
In the entire galaxy there is nothing more cursed than a traitor.
Excommunicated, hated and hunted, the Crimson Slaughter turned from the Emperor’s Light and have since carved a bloody trail through the Imperium. But before they betrayed their oaths and turned to the worship of the Dark Gods, they were the Crimson Sabres, stalwart and loyal. This is the story of their fall, as Scout Captain Anzo Riegler, a lone voice of reason amidst Chaos, becomes an unwitting pawn in his Chapter's demise.
Edit 13 : New transfer sheet?
Spoiler:
reds8n wrote: New/revamped ( improved ?) transfer sheet
Seriously crimson slaughter... unless it's a general 'renegades' codex at its heart then I see that being badly received by the people who are crying out for legion representation.
I could see it being possibly true though, update the box art on everything to the new black and blue, and push out the new helbrute at the same time to try and revive the lines sales a little. Not exactly a mind blowing release but it's good to see even a single model second wave.
Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
Ok, I feel a bit dirty for siding with GW, but people seem to be writing off the book with no knowledge of it's contents, and complaining about price rises that are, for once, broadly in line with UK inflation?
C'mon people, there's plenty to complain about, let's not be undermining valid criticism and complaint with knee jerk reactions.
WayneTheGame wrote: Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
You never know, people may actually contact GW direct and say they like the idea of Renegades and wanted to know more about the ones featured in Dark Vengeance.
KoganStyle wrote: No, we are writing off the fluff (it isn't good enough to be called a background story/lore actually) as a terrible basis for a new codex
If you summarised the fall of any first founding legion I'd say the fluff is just as awful. These guys going insane due to voices in their heads is actually more believable than most of the "I'm angry at my dad / Jealous of my bros" crap. As far as why GW is releasing a codex for them is concerned, it's obvious. They're the guys from the starter kit and GW wanted to update the Helbrute model with weapon options anyway. All the stuff is painted red so the color scheme is ready. It's Blood Ravens v2.
I'm reserving my judgment to actually see what it is, but if it's their typical $50 toss a bunch of crap nobody cares about, rules for optional things and two pages of an actual army I'm not going to be happy when Chaos is in such dire straits.
With any luck though at the very least it will be usable for all armies and not just CS, but given how they like supplements it'll probably only be for Crimson Slaughter and won't change anything. If that's the case, then I think it's the most damning proof that they don't care about veterans one bit, because who is more likely to have a "Crimson Slaughter" CSM army? Some kid who just bought Dark Vengeance. Who is more likely to have a Chaos army representing one of the traitor legions? Anybody else who has played Chaos at all before. Who does GW cater to? The kid, by giving them a special codex that makes them feel special.
Time will tell but honestly given GW's track record of these things, I'm not holding my breath, and I say that as a former CSM player who is/was seriously considering starting it again. The irony is that I kinda like the Crimson Slaughter color scheme, but not to that extent and prefer Iron Warriors. Plus I think it will have a stigma associated with it, being a "noob" thing, if that makes sense. Kinda like how in 2nd edition it was people playing Ultramarines 2nd Company who got labeled as a noob (although I don't recall that happening to Black Templars in 3rd edition).
KoganStyle wrote: No, we are writing off the fluff (it isn't good enough to be called a background story/lore actually) as a terrible basis for a new codex
Who cares about the fluff in this book?
Seriously, the whole legions vs renegades thing is already laid down, if a player is so short of imagination that the only army they feel they can generate from this book is a Crimson Slaughter warband, then more fool them. Much more important is if the list gives players more opportunity to represent their vision of how they want their army to be on the table, then that's got to be more important, surely?
Given the last couple of releases (Inquisition, LotD and Knights specifically) I wouldn't have high hopes, but as there is currently zero info outside of a name price and probable release date, let's keep our powder dry.
azreal13 wrote: Ok, I feel a bit dirty for siding with GW, but people seem to be writing off the book with no knowledge of it's contents, and complaining about price rises that are, for once, broadly in line with UK inflation?
Well, we don't know how many Chaos Marines are in the box, and for all we know they've invented a way of splitting 5 models (like the Raptors) in half and still making it so buying two boxes gets you exactly 5 models.
Huh. That's... unexpected. The codex, I mean. I'm guessing it's another allies codex, like LotD and the Inquisition. But still, odd choice for it. Maybe it ties in to those other rumours about the Dark Vengence event?
KoganStyle wrote: No, we are writing off the fluff (it isn't good enough to be called a background story/lore actually) as a terrible basis for a new codex
As opposed to the "good fluff" for the Iron Warriors(they like sieges!), World Eaters(they like to hit things with other things! also they're SUPER ANGRY!), Death Guard(they have no hygiene), etc.
Troike wrote: Huh. That's... unexpected. The codex, I mean. I'm guessing it's another allies codex, like LotD and the Inquisition. But still, odd choice for it. Maybe it ties in to those other rumours about the Dark Vengence event?
The price, and that it appears to be a physical book, suggests it isn't like Inq or LotD. Could be like Knights, with a pitiful number of units, it could be a pretty shameful cut/paste with minimal tweaks, or it could be a 6.5 dex with an increase in variety and options to allow a wider scope of army types.
Troike wrote: Huh. That's... unexpected. The codex, I mean. I'm guessing it's another allies codex, like LotD and the Inquisition. But still, odd choice for it. Maybe it ties in to those other rumours about the Dark Vengence event?
The price, and that it appears to be a physical book, suggests it isn't like Inq or LotD. Could be like Knights, with a pitiful number of units, it could be a pretty shameful cut/paste with minimal tweaks, or it could be a 6.5 dex with an increase in variety and options to allow a wider scope of army types.
It will probably be somewhat like the Black Legion codex, with some fluff content and few new units but some "unique" formations.
Well, this could be ascribed to a loss in translation, but the Black Legion book is referred to as "Black Legion: A Codex Supplement" not Codex: Black Legion, so there does seem to be a naming convention dissonance here.
Put me in camp "What's so wrong with the Crimson Slaughter fluff?"
You can hardly call the Legions much better, and that's with years and years of fluff and series of novels devoted to them.
Give Slaughter a chance.
angelofvengeance wrote: Has it occurred to anyone that maybe it might be nice to branch out from the usual Traitor Legions for a change?
Branch out from what? None of the Traitor Legions have their own rules except for one of them, and that single solitary one is the most vanilla of vanilla Chaos.
WHERE IS MY GOD BALLS DAMNED WORLD EATERS CODEX!!!!!!
You really gotta be kidding me...
Damnit Slayer! Have you not read about Codex Inquisition and Codex: Legion of the Damned? Codex Crimson Slaughter will be Codex: Chaos Marines where every units are removed save for cultists, chosens, metabrutus, and chaos lord. But, wait, you will get one new relic (but you can not use those from the main codex) and a new warlord traits table ! Do you really still want some World Eater codex now ?
WayneTheGame wrote: That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Yeah. Real faithful would just look for a way to kill those filthy traitors and heretics again, and rejoice at having a reminder of how good a job they did .
Nightlord1987 wrote: My guess will be that everyone must take the Mark of Khorne. No Berzerkers. A daemon weapon sword for Kranon. Fear as a warlord trait.
That kinda sounds cool BFTBG
Okay so... I re-read the Crimson Slaughter fluff. It kinda grew on me (maybe it's the voices in my head ) but it's not that bad. I do kinda like how the Helbrute is Kranon's brother and he threw him in prison for not siding with the "Hey let's kill all the things to stop the voices!" mantra, and then when he went insane from it himself he got thrown into the Helbrute and he's even crazier now.
Still a bit skeptical because I never liked these other minor renegades, I liked the idea of it being mostly traitors and then like Red Corsairs that were where all the other "Hey the Imperium sucks!" guys went to, while now there's a bunch of other renegades (although I admit that does make sense that more would fall). Crimson Slaughter isn't that bad, but honestly I'd rather have some distinction between "Traitor Legion" as in the originals and "Renegade Chapters" which are the newer. Like maybe give Traitor Legions access to some of the 30k stuff like Jetbikes and those Mars weapons (retcon the fluff as it was explained as those broke down or whatever and they couldn't repair them), give Renegade Chapters minor access to things like Razorbacks or Speeders or the like, anything to make them different while still being "Chaos".
I think Codex: Crimson Slaughter is going to be another eCodex. So far all the physical/ real codexes (which cost just as cost just as the eCodexes) have a over priced limited edition released at the same time.
Smaug wrote: I think Codex: Crimson Slaughter is going to be another eCodex. So far all the physical/ real codexes (which cost just as cost just as the eCodexes) have a over priced limited edition released at the same time.
The problem with this as an idea is that usually they're labeled "Digital".
I'm disappointed that they're doing Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not some war band based off one of the original legions, but maybe they don't want to step on FW's toes? I'd like to see how the Alpha Legion operates, or the Iron Warriors.
kronk wrote: I'm disappointed that they're doing Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not some war band based off one of the original legions, but maybe they don't want to step on FW's toes? I'd like to see how the Alpha Legion operates, or the Iron Warriors.
Since it's Khorne based, I'll have to pass.
How Alpha Legion operates? Armies based on sabotage and infiltration don't work unless you want a return to Alaitoc Disruption Tables. An army doesn't become a stealth and subterfuge army just because it employs cultists and the Marines can deploy after the enemy. There's not much you can do based on 40K rules, unless you want special rules that wipe out, weaken or delay half of the enemy army before the game even starts.
Codex: Iron Warriors can literally be summarised in one paragraph, just like it was before.
pizzaguardian wrote: @Kroot
Maybe just maybe it is a whole new csm squad box with whole new bits, one can hope right.
Although if it might be a 5 man box of new minis.
An anonymous source on Faeit212 predicted new box art yesterday. I was referring to that rumour:
i can confirm that this weekend we will be seeing a chaos box art update and the new hellbrute kit aswell as a crimson slaughter codex release
With the Horus Heresy FW books, we literally will have all the Legions and their rules (seriously, figure it out). I can't see GW publishing 30k and 40k rules for the legions. Get over it folks, we know where the legion rules are coming from, stop looking in other places and then wondering why they aren't there. Really, stop, its annoying like explaining the same thing over and over again to a 3yo is annoying.
30k = Legions, 40k = Warbands and Renegades
I'm all for this (most of my marines are red and my daemons eat Khorne flakes). If this supplement makes the CSM more competitive, then its a great idea, if not, I save $$.
That being said, GW needs better rules and codices, not more rules and codices. Sad how they never understand their own issues.
Also, clearly GDub is trying to great good buzz for the DV starter before the rumored updated starter hits late summer.
Warbands and Renegades don't necessarily mean an amalgamation force of various groups, that's what I think the issue is. There are those of us who want a "pure" warband, not this stuff like Honsou in the novels where he has a few Iron Warriors, and I think some ex-Raven Guard guy, and whatever other brutes he recruits on some backwater world and it's some frankenstein army. We want an army entirely of Night Lords, or Iron Warriors or Word Bearers and have them function somewhat different from the above-mentioned renegade warband.
I personally don't want a return to the Lost & the Damned/Slaved to Darkness stuff of having a warband with every model looking different.
With the Horus Heresy FW books, we literally will have all the Legions and their rules (seriously, figure it out). I can't see GW publishing 30k and 40k rules for the legions. Get over it folks, we know where the legion rules are coming from, stop looking in other places and then wondering why they aren't there. Really, stop, its annoying like explaining the same thing over and over again to a 3yo is annoying.
30k = Legions, 40k = Warbands and Renegades
I'm all for this (most of my marines are red and my daemons eat Khorne flakes). If this supplement makes the CSM more competitive, then its a great idea, if not, I save $$.
That being said, GW needs better rules and codices, not more rules and codices. Sad how they never understand their own issues.
Also, clearly GDub is trying to great good buzz for the DV starter before the rumored updated starter hits late summer.
Considering that Warbands can be pure khorne, pure tzeentch, and the like.
Also warbands and renegades is pretty downright WRONG.
There is TWO warband based legions that were shattered.
Emperors Children and World Eaters, and even then it's mentioned you can still find heavy groupings of warbands still at cohesive units, worshipping slaanesh and still having the Wargear. It's not exactly a decentralized force with everybody worshipping a different god.
Word Bearers have an extensive grouping and are the second largest.
Iron Warriors have a Chapter Like Structure.
Black Legion has warbands, but also a heavy cohesive unit around the top thanks to Abbadon.
Deathguard is together, but also has it's renegades (Typhus)
Thousand sons are together, except for renegades (Ahriman)
Alpha Legion might still be at full power and control.
I mean SPACE MARINES aren't exactly legions either but they still get to keep their identity. So that logic is pretty anyways. Yes there are independent structures of warbands that have left the legions on their own, but so what? It's not like we're cutting Ultramarines identity because they have a million successor chapters.
Let me expand on what I said above: I think there should be (at least) two kinds of Chaos armies: Traitor Legions and Warbands/Renegades. They should be similar, but different. When I think of the amalgamation Chaos army that has a bit of everything, I think of a Warband under some powerful chaos lord, and I think most of the newer renegades fall under this category as there tends to not be a lot of them (either the chapter was almost all wiped out before they turned, or they're just a chapter or less than a chapter).
When I think of a Traitor Legion army, let's say Night Lords, I think of almost 100% Night Lords marines and no cult troops; a unified force basically versus having a bit of various mini-bands. I'd rather have that distinction so if I play Iron Warriors, I can play an army that's different than your random warband with a bunch of different guys.
Smaug wrote: I think Codex: Crimson Slaughter is going to be another eCodex. So far all the physical/ real codexes (which cost just as cost just as the eCodexes) have a over priced limited edition released at the same time.
I don't think its a codex, I think its a supplement. The naming scheme lines up. Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter. If that's true it will be a digital only release for 3 months then be put into print.
It's pretty obvious Codex: Crimson Slaughter will be the same sort of digital supplement release as Codex: Black Legion. If you don't like it, don't buy it. As for Chaos bikes and Chaos Space Marines in there, maybe we're getting new kits to go along with the new Hellbrute kit? I think it's pertinent that there are pictures of said Hellbrute in this thread too, for those not in the know:
It's fairly certain that everything except the Codex and Helbrute is just re-boxed, there's no way GW would put out half a dozen new kits all at once if they have weekly releases now.
lord_blackfang wrote: It's fairly certain that everything except the Codex and Helbrute is just re-boxed, there's no way GW would put out half a dozen new kits all at once if they have weekly releases now.
Rebox and jack up the price abit! That always works!
Why? Why would that matter? Who the hell cares about a helbrute when you could release models that SELL.. Chosen aren't available outside the starter set, they could have done that instead of a helbrute.
Kirasu wrote: Why? Why would that matter? Who the hell cares about a helbrute when you could release models that SELL.. Chosen aren't available outside the starter set, they could have done that instead of a helbrute.
You could use chosen as chosen, CSM or havocs.
And, in the same way, you can use CSM as Chosen.
I, for one, like the looks of the model and will buy one. I don't care if it isn't übercompetetive, it looks nice.
I guess GW and people like me actually care about it
Kirasu wrote: Why? Why would that matter? Who the hell cares about a helbrute when you could release models that SELL.. Chosen aren't available outside the starter set, they could have done that instead of a helbrute.
You could use chosen as chosen, CSM or havocs.
Wasn't the original rumor plastic Havocs and/or Chosen and/or CSM? I think we need to wait just a bit before we jump on GW for that; I mean if all this release consists of is a $50 digital codex for a warband most people don't care about and a plastic Helbrute that nobody fields other than newbies, then we can bash GW again
Kirasu wrote: Why? Why would that matter? Who the hell cares about a helbrute when you could release models that SELL.. Chosen aren't available outside the starter set, they could have done that instead of a helbrute.
You could use chosen as chosen, CSM or havocs.
Wasn't the original rumor plastic Havocs and/or Chosen and/or CSM? I think we need to wait just a bit before we jump on GW for that; I mean if all this release consists of is a $50 digital codex for a warband most people don't care about and a plastic Helbrute that nobody fields other than newbies, then we can bash GW again
The release schedule doesn't instill me with hope on that front.
Kirasu wrote: Why? Why would that matter? Who the hell cares about a helbrute when you could release models that SELL.. Chosen aren't available outside the starter set, they could have done that instead of a helbrute.
You could use chosen as chosen, CSM or havocs.
Wasn't the original rumor plastic Havocs and/or Chosen and/or CSM? I think we need to wait just a bit before we jump on GW for that; I mean if all this release consists of is a $50 digital codex for a warband most people don't care about and a plastic Helbrute that nobody fields other than newbies, then we can bash GW again
The release schedule doesn't instill me with hope on that front.
Me either, but for once I'll wait and see instead of jumping on the "What are they thinking?" front. Honestly I like the Helbrute model (it's grown on me) but selling a model that's all but useless in the actual game (due to their rules being crap) just smacks of trying to trick newbies or inexperienced people or being completely out of touch. I get that they consider themselves a miniatures company first, but even the densest person would have to realize that the game sells the miniatures, and they would sell a lot more if the minis had good rules by selling to gamers versus selling to collectors.
Well, I suppose the release list tells us which kits are not getting updated any time soon. There's still hope for the rest (Havocs, Chosen, Cults, Oblits...)
pizzaguardian wrote: @Kroot
Maybe just maybe it is a whole new csm squad box with whole new bits, one can hope right.
Although if it might be a 5 man box of new minis.
An anonymous source on Faeit212 predicted new box art yesterday. I was referring to that rumour:
i can confirm that this weekend we will be seeing a chaos box art update and the new hellbrute kit aswell as a crimson slaughter codex release
I hope they change the fluff of the Crimson Slaughter a bit. Their old fluff makes them seem not very loyal to Chaos to me (they only really care about silencing the voices), which really really clashed with the storyline for that campaign which tried to play them off as loyal to chaos by saying they were trying to win the planet for mankind's "natural masters". That summer campaign was trying to show players that the Crimson Slaughter did honestly believe in chaos, despite how their old fluff implied they didn't.
I don't think lots of people really want to play a warband that's only serving chaos because they can't deal with voices. As pointed out earlier in this thread, truly devout chaos followers would possibly rejoice at being reminded of the things they killed (which is why the fluff postulates that Khorne's "curse" might have actually meant to have been a reward). Most Chaos players I'd think would prefer playing a bunch of marines who's either serving chaos of their own free will or who's serving chaos as a tool for their own ends, as opposed to some guys who are just being blackmailed into it (technically I guess you could consider the Death Guard as being blackmailed into it but I don't think many players make their own Death Guard warband backgrounds and motivations like that). Even being tricked into serving chaos is more dignified than the reason that the Crimson Slaughter are serving it (hell, for that final battle, they weren't even serving it so much as looking for an artifact to FREE them from it. An artifcat that might have never existed in the first place... losers.)
....also, dthe Crimson Slaughter lost and got wiped out by the Dark Angels in the same battle that the campaign is about. I'm not sure why a lot of players would want to play a warband that couldn't even deal with a bunch of Dark Angels without being DESTROYED. It's not like they did anything particularly notworthy before being anhilated like a bunch of losers unlike the Von Carsteins.
......I'm hoping they retconned all that because right now the Crimson Slaughter has always come off to me (even looong before this codex was announced) as some loser filler villain that just got destroyed like many other warbands out there that were never significant to anything.
TiamatRoar wrote: As pointed out earlier in this thread, truly devout chaos followers would possibly rejoice at being reminded of the things they killed
I said true believers. Not Chaos true believers. All those heretics killed in the name of the Emprah, seeing their face and hearing their screams cradle me to sweet dreams of purge and fire every night !
TiamatRoar wrote: As pointed out earlier in this thread, truly devout chaos followers would possibly rejoice at being reminded of the things they killed
I said true believers. Not Chaos true believers. All those heretics killed in the name of the Emprah, seeing their face and hearing their screams cradle me to sweet dreams of purge and fire every night !
While you hide in your Spehss Mehreen metal bawkses like a koward and fewl?
On a semi-serious note, I really hope they do make new CSM plastics. Rules would be nice too but this is GW so let's all get ready to embrace our new red-armored, voice-hearing overlords. Krannon for Warmaster! Aba-who?
CODEX: CRIMSON SLAUGHTER (ENGLISH) 1 £30,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE SQUAD 1 £23,50
CHAOS SPACE MARINE HELBRUTE 1 £33,00
CHAOS BIKERS 1 £21,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE ATTACK FORCE 1 £120,00
CHAOS RHINO 1 £23,50
CHAOS TERMINATOR LORD 1 £15,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE RAPTORS 1 £21,00
CHAOS SPACE MARINE FORGEFIEND 1 £41,00
CHAOS LAND RAIDER 1 £46,00
CHAOS TERMINATORS 1 £28,00
VISIONS OF HERESY (ENGLISH) 1 £45,00
WHITE DWARF WEEKLY 7 (ENGLISH) 1 £2,40
This is what i got so take it with salt if necessary
This is the list GW has been sending out for the CSM. Obviously some are old stuff but the Attack Force and the Codex is new so that's sth.
Edit 1: Images of Hellbrutes that has been around for a while
Spoiler:
Brother SRM wrote: It's pretty obvious Codex: Crimson Slaughter will be the same sort of digital supplement release as Codex: Black Legion. If you don't like it, don't buy it. As for Chaos bikes and Chaos Space Marines in there, maybe we're getting new kits to go along with the new Hellbrute kit? I think it's pertinent that there are pictures of said Hellbrute in this thread too, for those not in the know:
Hmmmmm, mysteriously the hoped for "imperial knight chaos upgrade sprue" is not here!
Lobukia wrote: Get over it folks, we know where the legion rules are coming from, stop looking in other places and then wondering why they aren't there. Really, stop, its annoying like explaining the same thing over and over again to a 3yo is annoying.
I'm so sorry that I want my Chaos army to have as much flexibility as the Marine Codex, a Codex that includes specific rules for a handful of different Chapters. Any Chaos player who wants similar flexibility and flavour in their Codex is obviously acting like a 3 year old.
This is definitely more "supplement" vs codex. I don't have all the particulars yet, but I expect there will be some changes in force org, warlord abilities, and rules for the new Hellbrute options.
The book is a splash release. GW retail and FLGS will get a small amount of the books and then it will move to the website.
kronk wrote: I'm disappointed that they're doing Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not some war band based off one of the original legions, but maybe they don't want to step on FW's toes? I'd like to see how the Alpha Legion operates, or the Iron Warriors.
Since it's Khorne based, I'll have to pass.
I understand why GW wouldn't want to release new information on the original legions until their HH backgrounds have been fully fleshed out, but still choosing the relatively new Crimson Slaughter over classics like Iron Warriors or World Eaters seems a strange move. I mean, I know they're supposed to be the big bad of this rumored global campaign, but I've yet to see a Crimson Slaughter army on the tabletop. Perhaps some newcomers to Chaos will consider the Crimson Slaughter if the rules are good, but most Chaos players with established armies will pass.
mikhaila wrote: This is definitely more "supplement" vs codex. I don't have all the particulars yet, but I expect there will be some changes in force org, warlord abilities, and rules for the new Hellbrute options.
The book is a splash release. GW retail and FLGS will get a small amount of the books and then it will move to the website.
Wait, so the book is releasing before the digital?
kronk wrote: I'm disappointed that they're doing Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not some war band based off one of the original legions, but maybe they don't want to step on FW's toes? I'd like to see how the Alpha Legion operates, or the Iron Warriors.
Since it's Khorne based, I'll have to pass.
I understand why GW wouldn't want to release new information on the original legions until their HH backgrounds have been fully fleshed out, but still choosing the relatively new Crimson Slaughter over classics like Iron Warriors or World Eaters seems a strange move. I mean, I know they're supposed to be the big bad of this rumored global campaign, but I've yet to see a Crimson Slaughter army on the tabletop. Perhaps some newcomers to Chaos will consider the Crimson Slaughter if the rules are good, but most Chaos players with established armies will pass.
BTW, they are undivided!
I would guess that the vast, vast majority of the "Crimson Slaughter" miniatures (DV), aren't remotely painted up to be used in a "Crimson Slaughter" warband.
kronk wrote: I'm disappointed that they're doing Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not some war band based off one of the original legions, but maybe they don't want to step on FW's toes? I'd like to see how the Alpha Legion operates, or the Iron Warriors.
Since it's Khorne based, I'll have to pass.
I understand why GW wouldn't want to release new information on the original legions until their HH backgrounds have been fully fleshed out, but still choosing the relatively new Crimson Slaughter over classics like Iron Warriors or World Eaters seems a strange move. I mean, I know they're supposed to be the big bad of this rumored global campaign, but I've yet to see a Crimson Slaughter army on the tabletop. Perhaps some newcomers to Chaos will consider the Crimson Slaughter if the rules are good, but most Chaos players with established armies will pass.
BTW, they are undivided!
Are they Undivided? The fluff indicates that the whole "visions of people you killed" was from Khorne, and the name/mass genocide indicates some sort of frothing lunatic. What gets me is that they don't seem to be much of anything, small potatoes. They're just some random Marine chapter that turned traitor like dozens of others, it doesn't sound like they were anything special as a loyal chapter either just Krannon was a bit more brutal and ruthless than most, and there are other renegades that actually sound interesting (The Purged, for one, or the Cleaved). They seem like just generic mooks.
I'd have rather seen a Red Corsairs book that blurred the line between CSM and Loyalist Marines and therefore would be suitable for any relatively recent post-Heresy renegade, Crimson Slaughter included.
That said though I like their color scheme so if the Codex is good might look at them as I'm considering selling my soul back to Chaos anyways.
Adding more credence to this, Black Library has a new ebook up for preorder called "Crimson Dawn" that details the fall of the Crimson Slaughter, when they were still the Crimson Sabres. It's set for release next Monday.
Are they Undivided? The fluff indicates that the whole "visions of people you killed" was from Khorne, and the name/mass genocide indicates some sort of frothing lunatic. What gets me is that they don't seem to be much of anything, small potatoes. They're just some random Marine chapter that turned traitor like dozens of others, it doesn't sound like they were anything special as a loyal chapter either just Krannon was a bit more brutal and ruthless than most, and there are other renegades that actually sound interesting (The Purged, for one, or the Cleaved). They seem like just generic mooks.
I'd have rather seen a Red Corsairs book that blurred the line between CSM and Loyalist Marines and therefore would be suitable for any relatively recent post-Heresy renegade, Crimson Slaughter included.
That said though I like their color scheme so if the Codex is good might look at them as I'm considering selling my soul back to Chaos anyways.
Adding more credence to this, Black Library has a new book up for preorder called "Crimson Dawn" that details the fall of the Crimson Slaughter.
Yeah, if they're really determined to have both "renegade/post-heresy fallen SM" AND "veterans of the long war/legion" type CSM represented, they have a funny way of showing it by having newly or relatively recently turned Space Marines completely discard all of their Land Speeders, Storm Shields, Assault Cannons, Thunder Hammers, Storm Bolters, Thunderfire Cannon, Razorbacks, Apothecary equipment, Centurion suits, Drop Pods, Attack Bikes, Stormravens, Hunters, Stalkers, Land Raiders of the Redeemer or Crusader patterns, Whirlwinds, etc etc etc.
I guess they give those up as trade ins at Happy Horus' House of Heretical Haberdashery when they pick up their Reaper Autocannon, Power Mauls and Chain Axes for termies, Sonic Weapons, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes, Defilers, WarpPhone listings for the Obliterator, Mutilator, and Warp Talon cults, etc...
I mean, I can understand that some of the gear will, over time, break down or run out of ammunition supplies. I get that they will, OVER TIME, come to use what equipment they can, and which the Warpsmiths are more familiar with, but come on. A proper "renegade SM" codex supplement, or even full Codex if they really want, which blends the two extremes a bit would FAR better get the feel of it across, and show the differences between post-heresy groups falling to chaos, and the original legions. But, no, they are determined to half-measure it and it shows, IMHO.
I wasn't expecting legion codexes or anything, but that's a bit disappointing that they aren't releasing a plastic kit for Chosen, Cultists or Havocs. Maybe it's a follow up release, but they should have just dropped them all at once if they are done. CSM are more and more becoming the new Dark Eldar of outdated models, decades overdue for updates.
I think it also depends on when the legion turned. Like if they turned some thousand years ago (during that crusade thing where the one guy was a cultist in disguise and sent a bunch of chapters into the EoT) then I could see them using CSM codex. But if they turned like 500 years ago? They would likely have a bit of their Imperial kit out in their battle barges or whatever when they fled, although the lion's share would have been seized it's likely. So maybe they could be limited in it to represent that hey we only have a few landspeeders or Centurion armor.
Why is everyone hung up on what Chaos Marines are the face of the Codex? Its the rules that matter. I play my Night Lord biker/jump pack army with the White Scar chapter traits. Its WYSIWYG. Get over it.
dracpanzer wrote: Why is everyone hung up on what Chaos Marines are the face of the Codex? Its the rules that matter. I play my Night Lord biker/jump pack army with the White Scar chapter traits. Its WYSIWYG. Get over it.
Because some people would rather it be about their pet legion/warband. It's understandable, and kind of baffling that GW chose Crimson Slaughter instead of something a little more established/fleshed out. I guess this is their opportunity to bring the Crimson Slaughter to that level of depth though.
Absolutely. At least outside GW store display miniatures.
@Waynethegame
According to Lexicanum, at least. Yep, it's weird, considering everyone in the warband, from Kranon to the cultists in their thrall, seem to be decidedly Khorne-y. I haven't read the DV novella, though. Perhaps there's more info in there.
I don't know what to expect of the Codex, though. Probably it'll be nothing more but rules for the named characters in Dark Vengeance, perhaps some relics to reflect the events in the DV backstory, and little else. Really, for expanded rules and probably even a distinct playstyle, the Red Corsairs would have been a much better subject. I can easily see that as the Farsight or Iyanden of Codex: Chaos Space Marines...
A character, a relic, a Warlord chart, and some Apoc formations. Woo.
It'd be nice to be wrong, but then again it'd be nice if the Chaos Codex included Legions like the Marine Codex included Chapters, and we don't get everything we want.
Brother SRM wrote: Because some people would rather it be about their pet legion/warband.
Nah I'm pretty sure it's cause we want the Legions back. I mean Black Templars lost their entire Codex, but they at least still have rules. Can the same be said of Night Lords? Iron Warriors? World Eaters? No. Of course not. We're all "generic Chaos Marines".
catharsix wrote: So, no Chosen then? I knew I shouldn't have let the Hellbrute raise my hopes...
No Chosen in this week. People seem to be having a hard time getting their head around the new release schedule. There is nothing that stops Chosen, Havocs etc being released the week after.
catharsix wrote: So, no Chosen then? I knew I shouldn't have let the Hellbrute raise my hopes...
No Chosen in this week. People seem to be having a hard time getting their head around the new release schedule. There is nothing that stops Chosen, Havocs etc being released the week after.
Except the fact people want them, of course!
Plastic Chosen, Havocks, and Thunderhawks next week! azreal13 says so!
catharsix wrote: So, no Chosen then? I knew I shouldn't have let the Hellbrute raise my hopes...
No Chosen in this week. People seem to be having a hard time getting their head around the new release schedule. There is nothing that stops Chosen, Havocs etc being released the week after.
Except the fact people want them, of course!
Plastic Chosen, Havocks, and Thunderhawks next week! azreal13 says so!
catharsix wrote: So, no Chosen then? I knew I shouldn't have let the Hellbrute raise my hopes...
Well, there's still further weeks in the month. If these go up for ordering on the 8th, then there's the 15th for something new to be released that likely ties into the new book. So this is where we'd likely see the chosen / cultist boxes to finish things off. With the 22nd and 29th moving onto another faction.
Plastic Chosen, Havocks, and Thunderhawks next week! azreal13 says so!
Oi, I never!
Unless it happens, then I totes called it.
Well, Chosen, Havocks and Imperial Thunderhawk the following week. Can't have the imperials going too long without a new shiny when chaos are getting something
If the Crimson Slaughter codex allows for a more Chaotic Chaos Space Marine army then I'm all for it. Who gives a feth what it's called if it's good?
Crimson Slaughter are Undivided iirc, they were only cursed by Khorne to find clarity in battle. So they don't serve him directly.
I really hope we get multipart CSM models that look like the DV set. Come on GW, my money is waiting for... no begging you to take it!
Formerly a loyalist Space Marine Chapter known as the Crimson Sabres, the Crimson Slaughter were declared to be a Renegade Chapter in M41 following signs of psychological instability and overly-zealous activities during their campaigns. They were ultimately excommunicated from the Imperium after the events on the world of Umidia. There, they purged the planet's entire population after coming under the belief that they had been tainted by the Ruinous Powers. However subsequent intelligence indicated that Chaos Cults on the planet were indeed in the process of summoning a powerful Daemon of Khorne. Khorne, either as a reward or revenge for massacring his followers, cursed the Crimson Sabres to be haunted by the voices of all those they killed. Only further bloodshed could silence the voices, and even that was temporary. Thus the Chapter Master Sevastus Kranon led his followers into the Eye of Terror to gain a temporary peace among the realm of Chaos rather than remain in Imperial space and risk harming further innocents
So hooray over $200 for not even a legit army that's barely a Battleforce.
The SM Strike Force was like the same and had something like 20x Marines (two Tac Squads), 5 Scouts, 5 Assault troops, a Command Squad, a Razorback, a Captain, a Dreadnought and a Drop Pod - not the best options but at least it was a fully legal "army in a box" and a good starting point for a newb.
Great... the "meat-tube" marines is here to stay. Notice how the first helbrute have thousand sons markings and colours? All current fluff right down the drain.
Probably need to finish my 1ksons quick.
Looks like it'll be the TDA lord rather than just a single normal termi. Though pricing it up in £ (using the price list posted previously) it comes to £124 (~140 euros) which suggests that there's something else missing to take it to that price point. Though whether that's extra models or higher price increases for Europe is anyone's guess until we see box art.
Kind of odd codex release. Will it be, in essence, Codex Khrone Marines? I hope there will be ways to add different gods in there, but I'm not counting on it.
Will they actually be a Chaos Renegades army though? Or will they throw away their Razorbacks, Land Speeders, Chibi-Hawks and Centurions as well as their love for the Emperor?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Will they actually be a Chaos Renegades army though? Or will they throw away their Razorbacks, Land Speeders, Chibi-Hawks and Centurions as well as their love for the Emperor?
What's weird is the fluff seems inconsistent. Lexicanum states that they went into the EoT to avoid killing more innocent Imperial citizens, so either they really aren't "bad" guys in the sense of other Chaos guys, or at some point they went from being "Let's hide out here so we don't murder more people" to "Hehehehe let's KILL ALL THE THINGS". What's also interesting is that according to canon, Krannon is dead because he was killed by the Dark Angels Master in the novel. So it will be interesting to see how the Codex handles that, if at all.
A post-Heresy renegade codex would be interesting.
But isn't that just the normal Chaos Marine codex? I'm all for more chaos stuff (come on Noise Terminators!!) but i think it was stated earlier in this thread, wouldn't Codex: Red Corsairs be better in representing post heresy renegades?
Yes Lord Blackfang, they have to get rid of them somehow!!
WayneTheGame wrote: What's weird is the fluff seems inconsistent. Lexicanum states that they went into the EoT to avoid killing more innocent Imperial citizens, so either they really aren't "bad" guys in the sense of other Chaos guys, or at some point they went from being "Let's hide out here so we don't murder more people" to "Hehehehe let's KILL ALL THE THINGS".
Some point being while they were in the Eye of Terror. Chaos does tend to corrupt people.
WayneTheGame wrote: What's also interesting is that according to canon, Krannon is dead because he was killed by the Dark Angels Master in the novel. So it will be interesting to see how the Codex handles that, if at all.
Actually Kranon survived in the novella. The Librarian foresees Kranon's death eventually, but we know prophecy is hardly spot on all the time.
WayneTheGame wrote: What's weird is the fluff seems inconsistent. Lexicanum states that they went into the EoT to avoid killing more innocent Imperial citizens, so either they really aren't "bad" guys in the sense of other Chaos guys, or at some point they went from being "Let's hide out here so we don't murder more people" to "Hehehehe let's KILL ALL THE THINGS".
Some point being while they were in the Eye of Terror. Chaos does tend to corrupt people.
WayneTheGame wrote: What's also interesting is that according to canon, Krannon is dead because he was killed by the Dark Angels Master in the novel. So it will be interesting to see how the Codex handles that, if at all.
Actually Kranon survived in the novella. The Librarian foresees Kranon's death eventually, but we know prophecy is hardly spot on all the time.
You sure? Lexicanum said that he was defeated and his head was brought to the DA's barge. Of course like any sort of Wiki article who knows. I might have to check out the novella for myself, it seemed interesting from the free sample.
Chapter goes to the Eye of Terror to avoid killing any (more) of the Emperors subjects while killing loads of chaos tainted to make the voices stop
Spending time in the eye of terror is not a good move if you want to stay sane so some of the chapter have gone genuinely bonkers and left the eye while still needing to be all kill-y becoming the Crimson Slaughter
(there could still be some sort of loyal but cursed marines wandering round the eye waiting for their own supplement)
H.B.M.C. wrote: Does kinda make you wonder why, of all the places they could have fled to, they choose the single greatest source of Chaos in the known universe.
"Quick guys! The British think we're Nazi sympathisers! We should run away... I know! Let's go to Berlin!"
I guess they ascribe to the Peregrine Took "the closer we are to danger, the farther we are from harm" methodology.
Maybe it was because they figured if they had to slaughter people to stop the voices, might as well slaughter evil chaos people and not good wholesome Imperial citizens?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Will they actually be a Chaos Renegades army though? Or will they throw away their Razorbacks, Land Speeders, Chibi-Hawks and Centurions as well as their love for the Emperor?
Well when I moved out, my dad made me leave the appliances at his house.
So I'm going with, yes?
Snark aside, I agree that this is the one single point that always drove me insane with "renegades" in CSM.
You can join the Dark Side, but you can't bring any vehicles with you.
Forcemajeure wrote: Great... the "meat-tube" marines is here to stay. Notice how the first helbrute have thousand sons markings and colours? All current fluff right down the drain.
Probably need to finish my 1ksons quick.
Not quite.
#1: The Thousand Sons warbands have been recruiting after the heresy, just like all other legion warbands. It would be impossible to survive on rubrics alone. It might not be a TS marine in there at all...
#2: It's not the marine in the brute that has mutated. His remains are probably in there somewhere while the hull is mutating just as any other tank seem to be able to...
...and so on. I think your Thousand Sons are pretty safe...
What a justification for bumping prices up, who the hell wants the box? Are people gonna stick their boxes on their shelf? Preserve them? Everyone stares at them for 5 seconds and then throws it aside or keeps it for priming minatures on.
No one gives a crap about the box, what the hell maaan, what the hell. Did they promise the artist the extra 50p of each one sold if they designed a new cover?
Literally anything to get just that little bit more money out of people, you piss taking greedy heads.
WayneTheGame wrote: You sure? Lexicanum said that he was defeated and his head was brought to the DA's barge.
Yes, Turmiel, the Librairan, forsees that Balthasar will eventually defeat Kranon and return with his head in an iron box.
But Kranon never actually dies.
unmercifulconker wrote: So they are charging 50p-£1 more......for a new box.......for a new.....box.....
Not just any box, but a Citadel™ FineBox™, the most revolutionary thing to happen to boxes since the invention of cardboard. Truly GW are the maker of the finest boxes on earth.
In all honesty though, a 50p-£1 increase is hardly a big deal (assuming CSM are still 10 per box). That's 'inflation level increase', rather than the typical GW tack 15%-50% because LOLidunno!
WayneTheGame wrote: You sure? Lexicanum said that he was defeated and his head was brought to the DA's barge.
Yes, Turmiel, the Librairan, forsees that Balthasar will eventually defeat Kranon and return with his head in an iron box.
But Kranon never actually dies.
I see, awesome I need to check out the novella I think.
unmercifulconker wrote: So they are charging 50p-£1 more......for a new box.......for a new.....box.....
Not just any box, but a Citadel™ FineBox™, the most revolutionary thing to happen to boxes since the invention of cardboard. Truly GW are the maker of the finest boxes on earth.
If I am gonna give more for such a fine quality box I DEMAND white dwarf daily videos about proper care for your box and how to properly position it on your shelf, perhaps how to even hold the box.
unmercifulconker wrote: If I am gonna give more for such a fine quality box I DEMAND white dwarf daily videos about proper care for your box and how to properly position it on your shelf, perhaps how to even hold the box.
You needn't worry. Black Libarary will soon be putting out a digital "How to use your Citadel FineBox" publication. It will cover everything you need to know, from storage to maintenence to proper use. A hardback limited edition book will be out later in the year, for around £70-80. And a companion book will come out at the same time.
unmercifulconker wrote: If I am gonna give more for such a fine quality box I DEMAND white dwarf daily videos about proper care for your box and how to properly position it on your shelf, perhaps how to even hold the box.
You needn't worry. Black Libarary will soon be putting out a digital "How to use your Citadel FineBox" publication. It will cover everything you need to know, from storage to maintenence to proper use. A hardback limited edition book will be out later in the year, for around £70-80. And a companion book will come out at the same time.
Ah, interesting. So Krannon survives in the novella huh? Seems like a slight retcon. I guess they figured that all this promoting of the Crimson Slaughter that they've been doing lately with that campaign and this codex coming up that the CS's looked like complete losers to get killed like that. Krannon still being alive at least means they don't have to be just another villainous speed bump that was quickly killed off, although they still aren't very impressive at the moment (presumably the codex will change that and add more fluff for them, I suppose).
TiamatRoar wrote: Ah, interesting. So Krannon survives in the novella huh? Seems like a slight retcon.
A retcon from what? The novella was released with the starter set.
Apparently the wiki article incorrectly states that the Librarian's vision actually happened. That was my bad as I was using the Lexicanum article as I haven't read the novella.
What I did find amusing though was GW had said that designed the Chaos miniatures to look as though they were in the Warp for 10,000 years... except the Crimson Slaughter would have only been in the Warp for several hundred to a thousand years depending on when they turned (supposed to have been somewhere in the current millenium). I mean, the miniatures look cool and generic-y Chaos but I found it funny that in the Dark Vengeance article when it was released, Jervis talked about naming them and everything for that forging the narrative garbage and then they said how they wanted the figures to look corrupted, but chose a renegade chapter that was relatively new for the figures to represent instead of a Traitor Legion that would have actually been in the EoT for eons.
unmercifulconker wrote: So they are charging 50p-£1 more......for a new box.......for a new.....box.....
Not just any box, but a Citadel™ FineBox™, the most revolutionary thing to happen to boxes since the invention of cardboard. Truly GW are the maker of the finest boxes on earth.
In all honesty though, a 50p-£1 increase is hardly a big deal (assuming CSM are still 10 per box). That's 'inflation level increase', rather than the typical GW tack 15%-50% because LOLidunno!
Hey, if the boxes are like the Knight's box? I'd be okay with it. It's a nice, sturdy resealable box with a tab and catch that you can use to transport the model in with some foam packing if so inclined.
Kanluwen wrote: Hey, if the boxes are like the Knight's box? I'd be okay with it. It's a nice, sturdy resealable box with a tab and catch that you can use to transport the model in with some foam packing if so inclined.
Kanluwen wrote: Hey, if the boxes are like the Knight's box? I'd be okay with it. It's a nice, sturdy resealable box with a tab and catch that you can use to transport the model in with some foam packing if so inclined.
Only you could say something like this Kan.
Pft. Do you think I'm going to pay a gajillion dollars extra for some kind of mainstream carry cases?
I have packing foam and cardboard boxes! MY MODELS ARE INVINCIBLE!
It's good enough for my Infinity stuff, it's good enough for GW stuff!
WayneTheGame wrote: What I did find amusing though was GW had said that designed the Chaos miniatures to look as though they were in the Warp for 10,000 years... except the Crimson Slaughter would have only been in the Warp for several hundred to a thousand years depending on when they turned (supposed to have been somewhere in the current millenium). I mean, the miniatures look cool and generic-y Chaos but I found it funny that in the Dark Vengeance article when it was released, Jervis talked about naming them and everything for that forging the narrative garbage and then they said how they wanted the figures to look corrupted, but chose a renegade chapter that was relatively new for the figures to represent instead of a Traitor Legion that would have actually been in the EoT for eons.
Time flows funny when the warp's involved, they could be millennia old.
Kanluwen wrote: Hey, if the boxes are like the Knight's box? I'd be okay with it. It's a nice, sturdy resealable box with a tab and catch that you can use to transport the model in with some foam packing if so inclined.
Only you could say something like this Kan.
Pft. Do you think I'm going to pay a gajillion dollars extra for some kind of mainstream carry cases?
I have packing foam and cardboard boxes! MY MODELS ARE INVINCIBLE!
It's good enough for my Infinity stuff, it's good enough for GW stuff!
I've found models survive better in the cardboard boxes with foam and standard plastic bags than in carry cases Thumbs up!
kronk wrote: I'm disappointed that they're doing Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not some war band based off one of the original legions, but maybe they don't want to step on FW's toes? I'd like to see how the Alpha Legion operates, or the Iron Warriors.
Since it's Khorne based, I'll have to pass.
I've heard this before (and I know it is a bit late), but how is this stepping on FW's toes? The closest I can think to that is HH but GW already made chapter tactics for SM and FW just released even more chapter tactics for loyalists.
dracpanzer wrote: Why is everyone hung up on what Chaos Marines are the face of the Codex? Its the rules that matter. I play my Night Lord biker/jump pack army with the White Scar chapter traits. Its WYSIWYG. Get over it.
Because some people would rather it be about their pet legion/warband. It's understandable, and kind of baffling that GW chose Crimson Slaughter instead of something a little more established/fleshed out. I guess this is their opportunity to bring the Crimson Slaughter to that level of depth though.
I just don't see why they didn't go for the Corsairs. Why not represent the recent renegades with the most iconic renegade army? Give some limitations but give them some more modern tech. Like they can't take ____ from CSM but can take ____ from SM to represent how they are a more modern army and the sorts.
Forcemajeure wrote: Great... the "meat-tube" marines is here to stay. Notice how the first helbrute have thousand sons markings and colours? All current fluff right down the drain.
Probably need to finish my 1ksons quick.
Not quite.
#1: The Thousand Sons warbands have been recruiting after the heresy, just like all other legion warbands. It would be impossible to survive on rubrics alone. It might not be a TS marine in there at all...
#2: It's not the marine in the brute that has mutated. His remains are probably in there somewhere while the hull is mutating just as any other tank seem to be able to...
...and so on. I think your Thousand Sons are pretty safe...
To be fair KSons are very reliable. I've heard claims they are adding more into their ranks. Some say it might be sorcerer geneseed (sense purified) whilst others have claimed it might be just that they are getting geneseed of other chapters and adding them to their ranks as a way to protect them. The rubrics are capable of being revived and even some rumours of necromancy exist (reviving old dudes) it's really messy.
Still, it doesn't fit the KSon style lest the KSon models get mutations as well. Really it's more of an overseight probably to represent tzeentch with his most iconic style.
WayneTheGame wrote: What I did find amusing though was GW had said that designed the Chaos miniatures to look as though they were in the Warp for 10,000 years... except the Crimson Slaughter would have only been in the Warp for several hundred to a thousand years depending on when they turned (supposed to have been somewhere in the current millenium). I mean, the miniatures look cool and generic-y Chaos but I found it funny that in the Dark Vengeance article when it was released, Jervis talked about naming them and everything for that forging the narrative garbage and then they said how they wanted the figures to look corrupted, but chose a renegade chapter that was relatively new for the figures to represent instead of a Traitor Legion that would have actually been in the EoT for eons.
Time flows funny when the warp's involved, they could be millennia old.
Or they could be even less... or they could be far more than 10,000 years old. Darn you warp being nonsensical!
Musashi363 wrote: I want a show of hands; who was asking for a Crimson Slaughter codex? Anyone?
Now, who was asking for Legion rules?
My thoughts exactly.
It's like GW is going on great quests to find new and interesting ways to produce products nobody cares about, while missing what people have been clamoring for that would give them a license to print money.
WayneTheGame wrote: Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
FW is taking care of the Chaos Legions. In 40K, even the big legions are mainly collections of warbands than a unified whole.
WayneTheGame wrote: Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
FW is taking care of the Chaos Legions. In 40K, even the big legions are mainly collections of warbands than a unified whole.
Says the fluff written to sell generic chaos marines.
WayneTheGame wrote: Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
FW is taking care of the Chaos Legions. In 40K, even the big legions are mainly collections of warbands than a unified whole.
You mean like Space Marines that are loyalists? Oh right...
Anyways, sorry if that seemed rude. It's just, I don't get this logic. This isn't chaos. Word Bearers are still heavily unified, Thousand Sons still have a specific style, Iron Warriors still operate on basically chapter sized armadas. And look at the fluff. It is so often based on some legion that is a warband of only that legion be it alpha legion or some other legion. Along with that, why is it that SM chapters get chapter tactics then? Basically, SM are just all themed. Not every Ultramarine descendant shall have their rules. Finally, the FW is taking care of Chaos Legions is bs. Because they are also working on SM legions which basically are the founding chapters. Oh, and look at how much FW is working on all those SM chapter tactics.
WayneTheGame wrote: Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
FW is taking care of the Chaos Legions. In 40K, even the big legions are mainly collections of warbands than a unified whole.
We've been over this before, it's wrong on so many levels.
"Chaos shouldn't have Legion rules" is the mantra of the people who either hate fun, or are afraid of losing.
Or people who parrot the same over and over despite being wrong.
..Or they just hate chaos, which seems to be a thing.
WayneTheGame wrote: Crimson Slaughter kinda look cool but seriously? What's with their obsession with newer renegades? I'd wager most Chaos players prefer the actual traitor legions not these newer renegades.
That fluff is lame though. Keep killing things to silence the voices of everything else you've murdered.
Also love the price increases just because with no reason. Oh GW will you ever learn?
FW is taking care of the Chaos Legions. In 40K, even the big legions are mainly collections of warbands than a unified whole.
We've been over this before, it's wrong on so many levels.
"Chaos shouldn't have Legion rules" is the mantra of the people who either hate fun, or are afraid of losing.
Or people who parrot the same over and over despite being wrong.
..Or they just hate chaos, which seems to be a thing.
I think they just can't get over Iron Warriors and the Slaanesh Bomb (plays KSons. Continues to weep)
On a plus, I've heard a lot of rumors about a cultist box might be coming out. Honestly I'd be happy to see that. Whilst it is really not CSMCSM, I always was a sucker for cultists (then again I would love to play Lost and the Damned in earnest )
Your going to have to help me out. Was that a older modle they use to sell?
Because it's not in either of the two plague marine kits you can actually buy ATM, neither have that modle.
Also if that is a OOP modle, then i guess they are bringing it back for purchase. Sort of new i guess. If they bring back the good deamonettes i will get excited.
It's a plasma gun Plague Marine from the Plague Marine Havocs box that hasn't been available for years.
It included a metal champion, four torso fronts with two plasmas, one melta, and one flamer, 8 shoulder pads, and 4 heads. Legs, backpacks, and torso backs were plastic. For this reason I doubt they're bringing them back.
So out of the pre-existing Chaos rumours, the one which, so far, is true is the least interesting?
Truth be told, going by the product sheet, if CSM are just getting reboxed, the kind of kills the rumour of new CSM doesn't it?
Granted, Havocs/Chosen might still be a thing for the following week, but I think if they're reboxing CSM, I think that means we're stuck with their fugly sculpts for a good long while yet, like Crisis Suits.
MajorStoffer wrote: So out of the pre-existing Chaos rumours, the one which, so far, is true is the least interesting?
Well I think it's interesting. Dreadnoughts are one of the things I love most about 40K, and a completely new kit for Chaos with all the weapon options is great.
After having no interest in Chaos Marines (apart from Abaddon and Terms) for nigh on 22 years, these Crimson Slaughter dudes look well decent and have actually made me consider starting a CSM army... once I've finished my Eldar of ocurse (ahem)
Nicely timed for Army Painter's Chaotic Red release, too!
I've always been a fan of those Nurgle Havocs and can NEVER find them online (or anywhere).
As for the Crimson Slaughter, if it allows some Allying with yourself shenanigans, it might actually be useful. After all, my Fast attack and Heavies are currently Maxed out.
I was planning on painting up my spare models (Bikers, Havocs, Terminators, CSM) in different Legion colors (AL, NL, IW, and Sons of Malice) but if this release has anything to offer, I could just paint em red! Though I was really hoping for the VOTLW supplement, and it is doubtful they would do TWO chaos books in one month...
Something that might be of note is that the Sentinels of Terra book, also a hardcover, doesn't say that it's a codex; it's name is Sentinels of Terra: A Codex Supplement and the actual text says Sentinels of Terra: A Codex Space Marines Supplement.
I'm not sure if the wording "Codex" here is just for the product release, but it could be something to mean this is actually Codex: Crimson Slaughter and not Crimson Slaughter: A Codex Chaos Space Marines Supplement.
Maybe, just maybe, it's a reboot like the 3.5 Chaos codex over a decade ago?
I'm witholding judgment to see what it actually is. Since I haven't actually even started playing again, this could be the catalyst that pushes me once more towards the dark gods (I was a Chaos player in 2nd and 3rd )
I'm slightly disappointed that they chose to do a supplement on an obscure warband rather than a legion that has a great established story. If, however, it adds some kind of new tactic, strategy, or makes a unit playable, then I'll be less disappointed.
As far as models are concerned, I'm really hoping they release all the models that have been rumored rather than doing some now and some in a few months. I want plastic Havocs!!!
i hope they also release some cultist kit. and that they are pretty different than the dark vengeance one (which are great, but i'd like to have lots of differenet looking cultist)
streetsamurai wrote: so it seems the crimsom slaughter book is a codex and not a codex supplement, unless they changed the designations.
You mean like Codex: Legion of the Damned is a full 'Codex'?
The word “Codex” has been so abused and twisted, it’s no longer useful. While not a new thing (Codex : Assassins being a quite old reference) the trend has become much worse these days. You can’t even rely on price points to give you a clue. The Knight codex for $40 for a one unit army? Why is this not a dataslate?
I hope this is a real book. I hope it will let chaos marine players actually play chaos marines; it’s been a while since I’ve seen any hit the table. But I’m getting bad vibes off of the whole mess. We’ll see what happens.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Chaos shouldn't have Legion rules" is the mantra of the people who either hate fun, or are afraid of losing.
No. “Chaos should not have Legion rules” is more like the mantra of some self-centered egoistic loyalist marines players (not representative of all loyalist marine players) that jealously cling to their special treatment. They do not hate fun, they hate the idea other people might have as much fun as they do. The idea of loyalist being put on the same footing as the other factions of the game is unbearable to them. Also maybe a few jealous players of xenos/IG/AS armies, but not too many. Because those are too busy rightly complaining about loyalist marines getting five different codexes to care about Chaos getting a few extra rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Chaos shouldn't have Legion rules" is the mantra of the people who either hate fun, or are afraid of losing.
No. “Chaos should not have Legion rules” is more like the mantra of self-centered egoistic loyalist marines players that jealously cling to their special treatment. They do not hate fun, they hate the idea other people might have as much fun as they do. The idea of loyalist being put on the same footing as the other factions of the game is unbearable to them.
Also maybe a few jealous players of xenos/IG/AS armies, but not too many. Because those are too busy rightly complaining about loyalist marines getting five different codexes to care about Chaos getting a few extra rules.
Personally I think they should just include all the SM chapter stuff in a single book, not multiples. Same with Chaos. Have the "generic warband" made up of everything, and then include the special stuff for all of the legions, including cult legions, and THEN have some extra stuff for actual Renegades that are more recent; even if it was something like being able to take a choice or two from the regular SM Codex (and hey, then they could get people to buy a second codex!) instead of some Chaos things.
I've been a Night Lords owner since 2nd Ed and I think I was initially drawn to them because of their imagery and as it was at the time, lack of Special rules. Plus they were not necessarily very Chaotic..just really bitter and nasty.
I've never included Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons or Emperor's Children/ Slaanesh in my army. I've never included Daemons, it was always just standard Chaos Marines, Terminators and vehicles. Where possible I avoided using all of the horned helmets although until the plastics came out it couldn't really be avoided.
I'd like these Crimson Slaughter rules to reflect recently turned Renegades and allow me to field Night Lords for whom the Heresy was only 50 - 100 years ago, just like in ADB's books. I know to some extent that can be achieved with the FW books but I'd rather spend some of that £70 cost on some FW Heresy Marines.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Chaos shouldn't have Legion rules" is the mantra of the people who either hate fun, or are afraid of losing.
No. “Chaos should not have Legion rules” is more like the mantra of self-centered egoistic loyalist marines players that jealously cling to their special treatment. They do not hate fun, they hate the idea other people might have as much fun as they do. The idea of loyalist being put on the same footing as the other factions of the game is unbearable to them. Also maybe a few jealous players of xenos/IG/AS armies, but not too many. Because those are too busy rightly complaining about loyalist marines getting five different codexes to care about Chaos getting a few extra rules.
So much hatred in this thread. As I've said, I think Crimson Slaughter was a silly choice when they could have done Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons. As another person mentioned, Red Corsairs would also have been a great choice. I'm not sure why the hatred for loyalist players and the sweeping statements, either. What Space Wolf player would begrudge a Thousand Sons player a codex/supplement? What Imperial Fists player (via Sentinels of Terra) would deny an Iron Warriors player a codex/supplement?
*Checks my Forge World HH Book 1 and 2*
Legion rules for Word Bearers, Night Lords, Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard.
"...you may all go to hell and I will go to [play with my Legion rules!]" Davy Crockett [paraphrased, but essentially the same thing]. I bet old Davy would have played Imperial Fists. Sons of Dorn!
What's funny is that it's not just CSM players that are chomping at the bit for Legion stuff..
The last game I played was against an Ultramarines player with Dark Angels allies. I ended up stomping his army and after the game he said "Dude, they really need to give you some good Thousand Sons rules"
So if loyalist players are even saying CSM need better representation, you'd think GW would listen right!
I am liking the look of the chaos dreadnoughts (sorry I can't bring myself to call them the other name in the codex) and might pick up a couple eventually if the price is half sensible.
Like other people though, I am completely baffled by the crimson slaughter release. At least the black legion have history, even if they are the ultramarines of chaos (i.e generic).
Any of the traitor legions would have been a better idea than this and almost guaranteed to be an instant hit with chaos fans.
We don't need a supplement for each traitor legion, we just need a simple set of legion tactics like the loyalists got with their chapters.
Brometheus wrote: What's funny is that it's not just CSM players that are chomping at the bit for Legion stuff..
The last game I played was against an Ultramarines player with Dark Angels allies. I ended up stomping his army and after the game he said "Dude, they really need to give you some good Thousand Sons rules"
So if loyalist players are even saying CSM need better representation, you'd think GW would listen right!
Of course not, it's GW. A Crimson Slaughter codex is for all the Dark Vengeance newbs and will tie into that summer campaign aimed at newbies with Dark Vengeance, while a specific legion will generally only appeal to players of that legion as legion choice tends to be personal tastes and legion players tend to be as devoted as many SM players, so a Night Lords supplement is going to do nothing for an Iron Warriors player just like a Wolf player doesn't care about Blood Angels.
That said though, having just finished reading the Dark Vengeance novella and looking forward to Crimson Dawn, the Slaughter have kinda grown on me, but I don' think they deserve a codex of their own unless it's going to be for Renegades versus Traitors, as the fluff states that they turned renegade in 928.M41 and if the current year is 995.M41 that means they've only been renegade for almost 70 years, so not very long at all (although neither were the Corsairs; the Badab war was like 10 years before that).
Spoiler:
In the book though they seem more like anti-heroes or at least think they are. Kranon seems to regret turning to Chaos and even states that he was a hero of the Imperium and had no choice but to do what he did to stop the voices, although the voices hint that he's just lying to himself about it. The Helbrute, who is/was his brother, is reluctant and actually gets killed because the Dark Angel Librarian goes into his mind psychically and distracts him by talking to him disguised as Kranon, telling him that the voices will stop soon while allowing a Plasma Cannon marine to blow him up. Ironically the evilest person in the novel is one of the cultist leaders who butchered the orphanage he was at as an offering to Chaos when they invaded the planet. Even the ex-Commissar cult leader acted more out of desperation than anything else. The CS don't even come off as being outright evil, they have that Anakin Skywalker vibe where it's "I'll do anything, just make these voices stop".
The constant "Don't call me Sevastus" thing though sounded like a bad cartoon. I could just see him running away at the end, dodging bolter shells with the voices insulting him and before the "Th-th-that's all folks!" ending he frustratingly yells "DON'T. CALL. ME. SEVASTUS!!!!" while a bolter shell hits him in the butt and makes him jump into the air with a yelp.
I'm a newbie in things chaos, my chaos space marines are still only basecoated and I'm deciding on which scheme to paint them. I have a lot of normal csm but not many specialists or cultists, hopefully this crimsom slaughter will make them usable again? and make the hell brute not as bad.
Your going to have to help me out. Was that a older modle they use to sell?
Because it's not in either of the two plague marine kits you can actually buy ATM, neither have that modle.
Also if that is a OOP modle, then i guess they are bringing it back for purchase. Sort of new i guess. If they bring back the good deamonettes i will get excited.
I imagine both of those things would annoy a rather large chunk of the ebay market, the nurgle havocs usually go for anywhere between £20-£50 for 2-4 models usually when they actually show up and even that's a rarity now. As for the daemonettes I wouldn't mind got mine for a sane price, though I could totally use another 10 or so without paying £50 for them
I'm imagining the cultist kit at least will probably happen in a week or two, especially if the rumours of DV going out of print hold true.
WHERE IS MY GOD BALLS DAMNED WORLD EATERS CODEX!!!!!!
You really gotta be kidding me...
And 33 pounds for a Brut?...damn...
Not really interested in the sub codecies, but it does seem pretty silly to release Crimson Slaughter before World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children.
The helbrute price wouldn't be too bad *if* it is a completely poseable kit and not just the helbrute from DV repackaged.
kronk wrote: As I've said, I think Crimson Slaughter was a silly choice when they could have done Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons.
Hence you are not in any way one of those I spoke about in my message. I have edited it to be clearer. I am certainly not suggesting every loyalist player is a bad person, just that (as among about any large enough group) some are.
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WayneTheGame wrote: Personally I think they should just include all the SM chapter stuff in a single book, not multiples.
You are not alone. It is an age-old debate. It has been argued to death, but we may give it another go if you want. But doing so in another topic would be good .
kronk wrote: As I've said, I think Crimson Slaughter was a silly choice when they could have done Alpha Legion or Thousand Sons.
Hence you are not in any way one of those I spoke about in my message. I have edited it to be clearer. I am certainly not suggesting every loyalist player is a bad person, just that (as among about any large enough group) some are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WayneTheGame wrote: Personally I think they should just include all the SM chapter stuff in a single book, not multiples.
You are not alone. It is an age-old debate. It has been argued to death, but we may give it another go if you want. But doing so in another topic would be good .
Nah, I've played this game long enough to know that would never happen in a million years
The helbrute price wouldn't be too bad *if* it is a completely poseable kit and not just the helbrute from DV repackaged.
It's really obviously a wholly new kit with multiple options. I've posted multiple pictures in this thread showing that.
Now, now! Don't let a daft things like logic and facts get in the way of the GW hate.
There's enough hate even with it being a new kit... like unless they change the rules it'll still be garbage and nobody other than newbies will field one.
There's enough hate even with it being a new kit... like unless they change the rules it'll still be garbage and nobody other than newbies will field one.
Or people who like the model will use it. I use a Forgeworld Chaos Dreadnought all the time because I like the model. I've been playing this game for 7 years.
Looking at the new book semi-objectively (rather than someone who wants a 1KS / Tzeentch book) I can think of a few reasons why we're seeing this book rather than a legion / god specific book.
1) We've heard before that the supplements are driven more by someone wanting to work on it rather than a set release schedule. So if one of the people behind the CS fluff wanted to take that forwards then it's plausible that they've had it finished and ready to release for a while and were just waiting for a slot.
2) To tie in with the above, some sources have suggested that as we see more supplements released the changes they make to the base codex are likely to increase in complexity. So the BL codex didn't really change much where as this one could have the rumoured veteran skills, which would be a larger change.
3) If a legion / god specific book was put out then I'd imagine that the community would be much more vocal in their displeasure that it wasn't their chosen faction being represented. This would lead to more demand for the remaining factions to be done. Whereas a more generic book that doesn't really cater to most people's desires will cause initial outrage, but it means that they're not in the position of having to follow it up with X more books to cover the remaining factions.
Of course, those points are going on the assumption that it is a supplement that's being released rather than a stand alone codex. The issue with this is that the new book is listed in the releases as a codex rather than a supplement and it's also not a direct only release.
Now,GW could have changed the way they handle the release information they send out to stockists but I'd have expected to see that with the Sentinels of Terra book that's just been released in print rather than with some unknown and unexpected. Now, the counter argument here is that this is aimed at newer players who've based their force around the current starter set.
What this new book could be is something of a hybrid between a full codex and a supplement to an existing codex. A way to represent the newer marines that have turned to chaos, sort of Codex: Chaos Renegades, leaving C:CSM as Codex: Chaos Legions. If this is the case I'd expect to see fewer of the more chaos choices (drake, mutliators, etc) and a limited smattering of 'newer' marine items (whirlwind, razorback, maybe a LR Variant), Now, we all know that C:CSM can't have nice things, so the new codex won't be battle brothers with wither C:CSM or C:CD, likely they'll be allies of convenience for C:CSM and desperate allies with C:CD. This is to represent the fact that they've only recently fallen and may not have fully embraced the remnants of the legions.
3) If a legion / god specific book was put out then I'd imagine that the community would be much more vocal in their displeasure that it wasn't their chosen faction being represented. This would lead to more demand for the remaining factions to be done. Whereas a more generic book that doesn't really cater to most people's desires will cause initial outrage, but it means that they're not in the position of having to follow it up with X more books to cover the remaining factions.
Considering Black Legion is released, that cats out of the bag.
Not to mention this will cause a MUCH more vocal issue, considering that this is something pretty much NONE wanted at all.
Especially if it turns out its needed to fix up Codex Helldrake.
The more I think about it, the more I cry in my beer that this wasn't a Red Corsairs supplement. Huron's fall from grace was kick ass and covered well in IA:9 and 10 by FW.
kronk wrote: The more I think about it, the more I cry in my beer that this wasn't a Red Corsairs supplement. Huron's fall from grace was kick ass and covered well in IA:9 and 10 by FW.
I wonder if that might be why. Red Corsairs have always to my knowledge been the "new" Chaos Renegades, as a comparison to the Traitor Legions, since 2nd edition at least (no idea about the RT days but I recall the Badab War being part of the fluff even then). Maybe this is GW's attempt to create the same kind of thing for the Crimson Slaughter as known antagonists when they want Chaos but not the old Legions?
3) If a legion / god specific book was put out then I'd imagine that the community would be much more vocal in their displeasure that it wasn't their chosen faction being represented. This would lead to more demand for the remaining factions to be done. Whereas a more generic book that doesn't really cater to most people's desires will cause initial outrage, but it means that they're not in the position of having to follow it up with X more books to cover the remaining factions.
Considering Black Legion is released, that cats out of the bag.
Not to mention this will cause a MUCH more vocal issue, considering that this is something pretty much NONE wanted at all.
Especially if it turns out its needed to fix up Codex Helldrake.
Well, Black Legion are probably the most 'vanilla' of the CSM Legions so relatively safe to put a book out for. Where as the remaining are more specialised, one way or another. It's more GWs way of saying "Look, CSM players, we made you a codex supplement. Now hush whilst we spend time working on 'proper' space marines." To flip it around, in a setting where CSM were the main faction and SM were the remnants of some long forgotten split, they'd have done an Ultramarines supplement first. Both factions have their fans and fluff, but they're not very diversified from the unbranded version of the parent codex.
3) If a legion / god specific book was put out then I'd imagine that the community would be much more vocal in their displeasure that it wasn't their chosen faction being represented. This would lead to more demand for the remaining factions to be done. Whereas a more generic book that doesn't really cater to most people's desires will cause initial outrage, but it means that they're not in the position of having to follow it up with X more books to cover the remaining factions.
Considering Black Legion is released, that cats out of the bag.
Not to mention this will cause a MUCH more vocal issue, considering that this is something pretty much NONE wanted at all.
Especially if it turns out its needed to fix up Codex Helldrake.
Well, Black Legion are probably the most 'vanilla' of the CSM Legions so relatively safe to put a book out for. Where as the remaining are more specialised, one way or another. It's more GWs way of saying "Look, CSM players, we made you a codex supplement. Now hush whilst we spend time working on 'proper' space marines." To flip it around, in a setting where CSM were the main faction and SM were the remnants of some long forgotten split, they'd have done an Ultramarines supplement first. Both factions have their fans and fluff, but they're not very diversified from the unbranded version of the parent codex.
Is that no different than how Iyanden is basically just wraithguard, knights, lords, etc though?
The Black Legion supplement actually was a needed addition to the codex...fluffwise. It told the story about the legion nobody really had any information about, and there are a lot of cool stuff in there!
Great the next big thing for Bkack Library, novellas too long a read for your attention span, well great news! We've reduced them even further to just being a title! Its the future of writing!
Seems to me that Crimson slaughter is mostly khorne related, but i bet you that they changed that part for it to be a multi-god codex.
Individual legions would limit the amount of different models a collector would need and therefore they aren't doing it. Why do you think the cult troops have suffered
such neglect? Most of the legions would have limited options or would need entire kits of their own, and that is simply too massive a project and would be too difficult to market.
tarnish wrote: Seems to me that Crimson slaughter is mostly khorne related, but i bet you that they changed that part for it to be a multi-god codex.
Individual legions would limit the amount of different models a collector would need and therefore they aren't doing it. Why do you think the cult troops have suffered
such neglect? Most of the legions would have limited options or would need entire kits of their own, and that is simply too massive a project and would be too difficult to market.
Don't see that myself.
The mainstay of any Legion list, gameplay and fluff wise, will be regular Traitor Marines, which already have a kit that you'd simply paint appropriately.
To represent the various Legions, you simply introduce a chapter tactics mechanic, and, where appropriate, allow force org mods for certain cult troops, all of which are represented in model form, in some cases both from FW and GW, already.
One could perhaps think about a plastic cult box for those currently in resin (3) but I don't see how this is too difficult to market or a massive project?
tarnish wrote: Seems to me that Crimson slaughter is mostly khorne related, but i bet you that they changed that part for it to be a multi-god codex. Individual legions would limit the amount of different models a collector would need and therefore they aren't doing it. Why do you think the cult troops have suffered such neglect? Most of the legions would have limited options or would need entire kits of their own, and that is simply too massive a project and would be too difficult to market.
They are Undivided; Khorne is just the one who cursed them with the ghosts/voices that drove them to Chaos in the first place, but they don't serve him.
I honestly can't think of any of the existing chaos legions i'd less like to see expanded than those crimson slaughter guys.
The old cult legions have more flavour fluffwise for the demonlovers out there and Night Lords and Alphas make for fare more interesting non-decominc traitor marines.
Current rumor from Faeit212 is that they get to take Possessed as Troops, and that it's still basically a codex supplement (but possibly renamed to make it seem more "legit").
WayneTheGame wrote: Current rumor from Faeit212 is that they get to take Possessed as Troops, and that it's still basically a codex supplement (but possibly renamed to make it seem more "legit").
That would be cool, not spend money to download cool. but still a neat idea
hmmm... I'm kinda hoping more for an improvement on USABLE units.... I'm actually looking forward to this release to help fan out my Non-Nurgle units and taking them out of the dresser...
The only Chaos models I don't own are Possessed!
Give me a reason to field Raptors and Terminators!
kronk wrote: The more I think about it, the more I cry in my beer that this wasn't a Red Corsairs supplement. Huron's fall from grace was kick ass and covered well in IA:9 and 10 by FW.
Well then, would we really even need a Red Corsairs supplement if Forgeworld already has them covered so well with the Badab War? Any supplement (at least to the standard of supplements done so far) pales in comparison to the Forgeworld books. That's not a knock on current supplements, that's just high praise for Forgeworld.
Honestly if that's the only change they make then it's proof that GW is clueless. I could maybe forgive making a Crimson Slaughter codex instead of one for the legions or the cults or anything else, but having the only change be the ability to take a useless choice as Troops? It shows they have zero idea of the problems with the meta, or worse they just don't give a damn at all and really think that their customers are stupid enough to buy whatever slop they throw out, instead of cleaning the fething wax from their ears and listening to what people are asking for.
If these things are rules that somebody came up with that sounded cool, they should be offered for free so it's not a big deal to try it out in most cases. But charging for what's basically a change nobody wants or cares about and that doesn't actually help fix any issues with an army? They really are taking the mickey here.
EDIT: According to one of the comments on Faeit212, their possessed are new/better with a different chart to roll on.
kronk wrote: The more I think about it, the more I cry in my beer that this wasn't a Red Corsairs supplement. Huron's fall from grace was kick ass and covered well in IA:9 and 10 by FW.
Well then, would we really even need a Red Corsairs supplement if Forgeworld already has them covered so well with the Badab War? Any supplement (at least to the standard of supplements done so far) pales in comparison to the Forgeworld books. That's not a knock on current supplements, that's just high praise for Forgeworld.
The FW books are pre-chaos/renegade. I'd like to see them covered after they turn to chaos/renegades, like their brief coverage in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords trilogy. They are WAY different from their portrayal in IA:9-10 by that point.
pwnsummer wrote: in this weeks white dwarf only hellbrute and attack force are mentioned as new models, the codex is also a supplement
It's a supplement but a physical book? If so I wonder if calling it a "codex" is to force acceptance, since supplements tend to be barred from tournaments and the like?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Guess it would be crazy to hope for an improvement on Cultists (possessed cultists?) or Helbrutes (possessed helbrutes?) right?
*Glimmer of hope*
Given the track record, I'm just hoping it's not like 20 pages of fluff, a timeline of what they've done since being founded, a couple of pictures, the usual Planetstrike/Cityfight crap nobody cares about, a page of rules of which the only change is Possessed as troops, and then 5 pages of models.
via a reader on Faeit 212
I managed to get a look at the new White Dwarf. The Crimson Slaughter have the usual relics, warlords traits and so on. The Force Org change is that you can take Possessed as Troops.
Count me as one more in the "Alright, they are actively teasing us at this point" camp. It's not like they only have 2-3 Legion books to release and thus have to pace themselves ultra-carefully.
Let's be practical. You have 8 Chaos legions to have supplements about; then probably one more for Red Corsairs and even one more for Renegades. You could release a much-craved supplement every 4 months and you likely would still not be done by the time 8th edition is due.
I fully believe that it's just going to be Possessed as troops and a new warlord table and relic list. "Well, last time we did Chosen, so now let me look at the site...people love Possessed, right? Sure they do. So they are troops now."
seems like they could have sold more books if they wouldve made this supplement for just about any other chaos legion/warband. and placing one of the least popular chaos units into the spotlight (possessed) feels suspiciously like manipulating game balance to sell kits. or at least trying to nudge newer players in that direction.
Actually, possessed aren't that bad, but they compete with Chosen and Terminators in the Elites slot, and can't score like their cult brethren. They have alot of advantages, like built in Strength 5, Fearless, Fleet and 5++ save.
Taking them as troops also means you don't have to take a Marked lord to unlock Cult troops, so you are free to experiment with the other HQ options, like running double sorcerers or something.
Not saying it will magically make everyone super happy, but they aren't terrible and it represents at least a slight eyebrow raising new army list twist.
sand.zzz wrote: seems like they could have sold more books if they wouldve made this supplement for just about any other chaos legion/warband. and placing one of the least popular chaos units into the spotlight (possessed) feels suspiciously like manipulating game balance to sell kits. or at least trying to nudge newer players in that direction.
Fool's Gold choices to sell inferior kits to newbies who don't know any better sounds like it would be right up GW's "churn and burn" sales strategy...
...since when the gak do Crimson Slaughter rely on Possessed?* I didn't read the novella but I don't recall possessed or even daemons ever coming up at all in their known fluff or that GW-run campaign.
TiamatRoar wrote: ...since when the gak do Crimson Slaughter rely on Possessed?* I didn't read the novella but I don't recall possessed or even daemons ever coming up at all in their known fluff or that GW-run campaign.
*answer: Since this codex, apparently.
Yep I was thinking the same thing. Having just read the novella there's no mention of possession at all, and no mention of daemons other than the one that the Hellfire Stone presumably summoned, and even that was just "It summons a daemon." and nothing more.
Of course, they could have retconned it. People already think they're a Khorne warband.
Actually I seem to recall one sentence that MIGHT indicate possession: When Kranon first shows up (at least I'm pretty sure its Kranon as he's the only one with a blue cloak), the mouth in his armor is the one talking but that doesn't get mentioned ever again and later on he actually talks normally, usually in a cartoon villain-like monologue with the voices in his head, telling it to not call him Sevastus.
I know they are hated, but i think that the csm kit is pretty nice, and they are way more important thing to do than replace it. Especially if the rumored chosen box has some extra parts wich can be used on them to give them a more demonic look.
pretre wrote: via a reader on Faeit 212
I managed to get a look at the new White Dwarf. The Crimson Slaughter have the usual relics, warlords traits and so on. The Force Org change is that you can take Possessed as Troops.
Worst force org change ever?
How on earth are you arriving at that? I'm not saying that possessed are a great choice but making something a troops choice gives players who have those figures or want to use those units more variety and utility. If you've got a possessed themed army, why wouldn't you want to have them be scoring troops?
I actually may be interested in picking up the attack force.
Looks like it is a pretty good buy. If it's between $165 and $175, that saves you quite a bit. Retail for all that is $248.25, so you save between $63.25 or $73.25. Tack on a FLGS or third party discount, and you've saved quite a bit.
godswildcard wrote: I actually may be interested in picking up the attack force.
Looks like it is a pretty good buy. If it's between $165 and $175, that saves you quite a bit. Retail for all that is $248.25, so you save between $63.25 or $73.25. Tack on a FLGS or third party discount, and you've saved quite a bit.
But I've been wrong before!
Unless it was changed I think it was listed at like $200, which for me is weird because the SM Strikeforce is a bit more than that and is an actual full army; the Attack Force only has one Troops choice (barring splitting them into two 5x squads)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Current rumor now is that it is officially a Supplement, and not a Codex. Crimson Slaughter: A Codex Chaos Space Marines Supplement
Great news for me, im almost done with a unit of ten posessed in a kitbashed evil landraider.
The unit started as a fluffy joke for some wordbearer allies of mine. But as troops they will be awesome. And they are my favourite models for the csm range.
Also, confirmed pictures of the Attack Force have been spotted. Still kind of disappointed there's only one CSM squad in it, when it'll run almost as much as the SM Strikeforce.
Cool cover. Even the CSM codex cover was cool looking despite being reused art. I'm not a fan of the full color and hardback codex switch but the covers have been top notch compared with the soft cover versions.
Unless it was changed I think it was listed at like $200, which for me is weird because the SM Strikeforce is a bit more than that and is an actual full army; the Attack Force only has one Troops choice (barring splitting them into two 5x squads)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Current rumor now is that it is officially a Supplement, and not a Codex. Crimson Slaughter: A Codex Chaos Space Marines Supplement
That's disappointing, but I guess it would still be worth it. A 20% discount prices it at $160, saving you $88 off retail.
warboss wrote: How on earth are you arriving at that? I'm not saying that possessed are a great choice but making something a troops choice gives players who have those figures or want to use those units more variety and utility. If you've got a possessed themed army, why wouldn't you want to have them be scoring troops?
It was a joke, but... Possessed are still pretty horrible.
Well from what the book looks to contain, it's a typical supplement. "Echoes of War" missions, Cities of Death and Planetstrike strategies, probably a page of wargear and what's different, and nothing else.
If they do change the codex to a supplement, that will actually leave me less annoyed. Not UNannoyed, but still.
Where are those rumoured Daemons AND Marine supplements for each God? Mention Emperor's Children in the Slaanesh one of those and then do Supplements for the undivided Legions and I would praise GW every day.
Yet another Chaos release that I will ignore. Was a huge fan of all things Chaos until the last uninspiring and bland dex [which succeeded an uninspiring and bland dex] and even less inspiring new models. Ignoring established legions/warbands to focus on one that has terrible fluff and nothing to distinguish it from the crowd [obviously just my own opinion] will do nothing to tempt me to take my Emperor's Children off their shelf or give over my money to GW. Shame.
Not only that but like the other supplements its 72 pages, one of which is "rules", one of which is relics and the rest is fluff or missions for narrative battles featuring them and things for their other supplements. So you're paying $50 for basically 2 pages, maybe 10 max if you actually use the other stuff, and the rest fluff and pictures.
- 72pp codex
- Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions
- Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems
- Crimson Slaughter Army List: Possessed CSMs can be taken as TROOPS
Excessus wrote: Just as usual then, only this time the fluff is about somebody nobody cares about...
Pretty much. Very disappointed I was hoping for something to make Chaos good. I was excited about it, but I'm not paying $50 (technically $100 for C:CSM too) for pages of fluff, missions that nobody uses to refight battles nobody cares about, and one page of rules that lets me use a bad unit as Troops instead of Elites.
Well, other than the supposed lack of other changes, I could see the change of possessed to troops being possibly used for a non-1KS Tzeentch list. Though that depends on you not being forced to take a different mark to unlock this change. It'd also depend on using Dreadclaws / Kharybdis Assault Claws to get them to where they're needed.
It'd not be a massively impressive list, but it'd be an alternative to just 1KS for Tzeentch CSM.
Either way, the completionist in me will want a copy of this book, even if it's not something I end up using.
pretre wrote: - 72pp codex
- Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions
- Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems
- Crimson Slaughter Army List: Possessed CSMs can be taken as TROOPS
And that requires a full-price hardback release that could have better served putting out a single "Legions of Chaos" book with new rules for the major Legions/Warbands, including any required FOC changes, Warlord Traits and unique Wargear.
Excessus wrote: Just as usual then, only this time the fluff is about somebody nobody cares about...
Pretty much. Very disappointed I was hoping for something to make Chaos good. I was excited about it, but I'm not paying $50 (technically $100 for C:CSM too) for pages of fluff, missions that nobody uses to refight battles nobody cares about, and one page of rules that lets me use a bad unit as Troops instead of Elites.
GW sure knows how to please the crowd. First black legion, now CS and posessed, and also a brand new helbrute. Who needs super heavy knights!
Excessus wrote: Just as usual then, only this time the fluff is about somebody nobody cares about...
Pretty much. Very disappointed I was hoping for something to make Chaos good. I was excited about it, but I'm not paying $50 (technically $100 for C:CSM too) for pages of fluff, missions that nobody uses to refight battles nobody cares about, and one page of rules that lets me use a bad unit as Troops instead of Elites.
GW sure knows how to please the crowd. First black legion, now CS and posessed, and also a brand new helbrute. Who needs super heavy knights!
It really feels like they're just giving anyone who doesn't buy into their "forge the narrative" line and actually wants good rules the finger.
pretre wrote: - 72pp codex - Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter - Warlord Traits - Relics - "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions - Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems - Crimson Slaughter Army List: Possessed CSMs can be taken as TROOPS
And that requires a full-price hardback release that could have better served putting out a single "Legions of Chaos" book with new rules for the major Legions/Warbands, including any required FOC changes, Warlord Traits and unique Wargear.
What a wasted opportunity.
If you think that GW would put out a single book with multiple legions after putting out 60+ page books for 1 unit, you haven't been paying much attention to their recent publishing habits. You might as well as them to put 2 landraiders back in a single box for $30 (US or AUD.. your choice since it's about as equally likely). At *best*, you might get a single page of rules lifted from the 3.5 codex in each book.
I do agree with your last sentance though but as an accurate description of 6th edition in general.
warboss wrote: If you think that GW would put out a single book with multiple legions after putting out 60+ page books for 1 unit, you haven't been paying much attention to their recent publishing habits. You might as well as them to put 2 landraiders back in a single box for $30 (US or AUD.. your choice since it's about as equally likely). At *best*, you might get a single page of rules lifted from the 3.5 codex in each book.
Keep in mind that as much rage as there is for the supplements, dataslates and knight codexes, GW is still updating core armies at a rate of 3.5 per year (ignoring Knights, LotD, AS and Inq).
The fastest they ever updated codexes in previous editions was 4th edition where they updated 10 codexes in 4 years (2.5 per year) and that was at the expense of any supplements, expansions. In 6th, they have done 7 codexes (main codexes, mind you) in 2 years and continued to put out optional material at a rate not seen since 3rd edition.
The 'math':
Spoiler:
3rd Edition - 6 Years (1998-2004) (~2 codex per year) 13 Codexes: SM, DE, Necrons, CSM, DA, Orks, Eldar, IG, Tyranids, Tau, DH, WH, CSM3.5 7 Supplements: Assassins, Catachans, SW, Craftworld, EOT, Arma, BA 1 Expansions: Cityfight 25 'Data slates': 11 different army lists and 14 different optional units/rules.
4th Edition - 4 Years (2004-2008) (~2.5 codex per year) 10 Codexes: SM, Tyranids, BT, Tau, Eldar, DA, BA, CSM, CD, Orks 1 Supplements: Catachans Supplements: Cities of Death
5th Edition - 4 Years (2008-2012) (~2 codex per year) 9 Codexes - SM, Tyranids, SOB, IG, SW, BA, DE, GK, Nec 5 Expansions: Death Worlds, Spearhead, Battle Missions, Planetary Empries, Planetstrike
6th Edition - (2012-Present) (~3.5 codex per year, 5.5 per year if you count the mini-digi codexes) 7 Codexes: CSM, DA, CD, Tau, Eldar, SM, Tyr 4 questionable (mini/digi) codexes: AS, Inq, LotD, IK 5 Supplements: Raukaan, SoT, BL, Farsight, Iyanden 6 Expansions: Kill Team, Escalation, SHA, Death Worlds, DFTS, CoF 10 Dataslates - Tyr I, Tyr II, Tyr War Vet, Cypher, Reclusiam, Centurion, Eldar GW, Adeptus Astartes SW, Tau FB, Be'Lakor
6th edition has released almost twice many codexes as any previous edition in the normal time. Even if you exclude Inq, AS, Lotd and IK, they have released 7 codexes in 2 years which is more than any other edition.
Long story short, even with the book for one unit of Knights, that doesn't mean they won't put out more substantial books.
Damn, and here I was getting psyched about buying several brand new CSM sqauds redone like the excellent new vanilla tacticals. Turns out its just the same models. I guess GW doesn't want my money?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Damn, and here I was getting psyched about buying several brand new CSM sqauds redone like the excellent new vanilla tacticals. Turns out its just the same models. I guess GW doesn't want my money?
Forgeworld does! Behold, Chosen!
However, I agree that CSM are overdue for new sculpts!
They are saving new sculpts for the release of the next Chaos Codex supplement detailing the history and forces of the feared warband: Indigo Snuggles.
And that requires a full-price hardback release that could have better served putting out a single "Legions of Chaos" book with new rules for the major Legions/Warbands, including any required FOC changes, Warlord Traits and unique Wargear.
What a wasted opportunity.
Well it really depends on what opportunity you are refering to? The opportunity to release an actually usable resource that would appeal to many different CSM players or the opportunity to charge customers, once again, for nothing really at all? If the former then yes they missed the opportunity, but since this is GW I expect the latter was the real opportunity for them so they hit the mark dead center on that one.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Damn, and here I was getting psyched about buying several brand new CSM sqauds redone like the excellent new vanilla tacticals. Turns out its just the same models. I guess GW doesn't want my money?
Forgeworld does! Behold, Chosen!
However, I agree that CSM are overdue for new sculpts!
What models are those? I feel like you may be on to an (overpriced) something. A squad of those as chosen may be pretty cool!
And that requires a full-price hardback release that could have better served putting out a single "Legions of Chaos" book with new rules for the major Legions/Warbands, including any required FOC changes, Warlord Traits and unique Wargear.
What a wasted opportunity.
Well it really depends on what opportunity you are refering to? The opportunity to release an actually usable resource that would appeal to many different CSM players or the opportunity to charge customers, once again, for nothing really at all? If the former then yes they missed the opportunity, but since this is GW I expect the latter was the real opportunity for them so they hit the mark dead center on that one.
Skriker
Sadly agreed. It seems to be their new marketing to put out 50 pages of fluff and a minor rules tweak and charge full codex price for it.
Somebody at GW is laughing all the way to the bank.
It really feels like they're just giving anyone who doesn't buy into their "forge the narrative" line and actually wants good rules the finger.
I'm a Forge The Narrative guy. I love Cinematic rules. I have a detailed story for my models and like to imagine what is happening as if I were watching a movie.
_BECAUSE_ of those things, I didn't want or need this codex. If they wanted to spend a Codex showing a story of a Chapter falling to Chaos, I would have MUCH rather heard more about Huron or another of the already established renegades, not this relatively new one.
But more than that, BECAUSE I am a Forge the Narrative kinda guy, I want Legion books. Supplements with only a page or so of rules is fine, so long as they are vaguely reflective of the story they have built.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Damn, and here I was getting psyched about buying several brand new CSM sqauds redone like the excellent new vanilla tacticals. Turns out its just the same models. I guess GW doesn't want my money?
Forgeworld does! Behold, Chosen!
However, I agree that CSM are overdue for new sculpts!
What models are those? I feel like you may be on to an (overpriced) something. A squad of those as chosen may be pretty cool!
pretre wrote: - 72pp codex
- Full history of the fallen Crimson Sables transformation into the Crimson Slaughter
- Warlord Traits
- Relics
- "Echoes of War" Narrative Missions
- Planetstrike & Cities of Death Strategems
- Crimson Slaughter Army List: Possessed CSMs can be taken as TROOPS
And that requires a full-price hardback release that could have better served putting out a single "Legions of Chaos" book with new rules for the major Legions/Warbands, including any required FOC changes, Warlord Traits and unique Wargear.
What a wasted opportunity.
Also, yaaaaaay you made arguably the worst Chaos unit into troops. Have fun with your 26 point troops!
I'm going to start scouring the various forums for topics like this, compile them all into links into an e-mail, and send it to every GW e-mail address I can find.
Not that it'll do any good, but at least I can say I tried to get GW to pay attention.
GW, please stop giving us stuff we don't want.
Please give us stuff that we do want.
We are the playerbase, we are the customer. If us beardy guys that track down these rumors aren't pleased, we'll be the ones that will push the target demographic AWAY from buying this crap, whereas if they produced something we were truly excited about, we'd be telling all the newbies, 'You should definitely get this! It's super exciting! It's awesome! It has everything that we love about the game in it!' and lo and behold, they would sell more.
drbored wrote: I'm going to start scouring the various forums for topics like this, compile them all into links into an e-mail, and send it to every GW e-mail address I can find.
Not that it'll do any good, but at least I can say I tried to get GW to pay attention.
Threads like this? Ugh. At least write a letter or something.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: I'm a Forge The Narrative guy. I love Cinematic rules. I have a detailed story for my models and like to imagine what is happening as if I were watching a movie.
_BECAUSE_ of those things, I didn't want or need this codex. If they wanted to spend a Codex showing a story of a Chapter falling to Chaos, I would have MUCH rather heard more about Huron or another of the already established renegades, not this relatively new one.
But more than that, BECAUSE I am a Forge the Narrative kinda guy, I want Legion books. Supplements with only a page or so of rules is fine, so long as they are vaguely reflective of the story they have built.
This. This. A thousand times this.
I have long written up back-stories and a series of linked narrative games for various Chaos Commanders. I don't want nor need a damned 'Crimson Slaughter' book that amounts to nothing more than "New Chapter has something happen to it, now they staple babies to their foreheads - have a new Warlord Chart".
Have weekly releases not sunk in yet here?... There is every likelihood of plastic chosen week on Friday for preorder. If it doesn't happen then by all means moan. However, until it doesn't isnt it about time people stopped the incessant whinging when things haven't happened? In terms of marine based books there is a plethora of viable marine forces available that can merrily represent both 30k and 40k. Here endeth the first rant...
pretre wrote: Long story short, even with the book for one unit of Knights, that doesn't mean they won't put out more substantial books.
Sounds like someone 'apologising' for GW's release schedule.
And I don't think anyone's arguing that they won't petre, but I think people would prefer if it they released 'subtantial' books all the time. We didn't need nor want a Crimson Slaughter book. Chaos players want a Legions book. We'd all pay for a full-priced hard cover Legions book. Why on earth do they think we're clamouring for a book about some random fallen Loyalist Chapter?
And I notice in your list of Codices you note ‘expansions’ and ‘dataslates’ for 3rd Ed. That’s a nice try, but it’s not accurate at all. For starters you list Catachans in ‘expansions’, yet you list Blood Angels and Dark Angels as full Codices. Those were the same – a book that makes reference to a core book. I know what you’re trying to do, reframe 3rd Ed to make it look like GW has always done the Codex/Expansion/Dataslate thing, but really they haven’t and your attempts to make it appear that way are mighty dishonest.
drbored wrote: GW, please stop giving us stuff we don't want.
Please give us stuff that we do want.
Doesn't work that way unfortunately. GW has a general attitude of "they'll buy what we make", rather than "we'll make what they'll buy".
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sounds like someone 'apologising' for GW's release schedule.
Whatevs.
And I notice in your list of Codices you note ‘expansions’ and ‘dataslates’ for 3rd Ed. That’s a nice try, but it’s not accurate at all. For starters you list Catachans in ‘expansions’, yet you list Blood Angels and Dark Angels as full Codices. Those were the same – a book that makes reference to a core book. I know what you’re trying to do, reframe 3rd Ed to make it look like GW has always done the Codex/Expansion/Dataslate thing, but really they haven’t and your attempts to make it appear that way are mighty dishonest.
I fixed BA and Catachans. I forgot DA was a minidex too and fixed that as well.
As for the other part, I think that's just taking a shot at me. How does it make me look dishonest? I'm not reframing a damn thing about 3rd edition. 3rd was a huge hodge-podge of Codexes, add-on codexes, sub-codexes and white dwarf articles. A dataslate is basically the same as a unit entry, which were in WD all the time. Want to field GK before CH? You had to use a WD article. Cult Terminators? WD Article. etc, so on. A supplement is just like the add-on codexes and mini-dexes we got in third. Are there differences? Sure, but I'm comparing output by types of material, which is pretty clear.
Anyways, even if you just compare main codexes, 6th edition is far and away the most productive edition. We have gotten the most main codexes per year of any edition. Which was my point. Even with all the dataslates and all the mini-codexes and supplements, we still are getting a faster codex and army release schedule than any other edition. We're not sacrificing anything for these add-ons, in fact we're getting more.
Either way, I fixed the DA thing, so we're down to 2 per year in 3rd edition.
Spoiler:
3rd Edition - 6 Years (1998-2004) (2 codex per year) 12 Codexes: SM, DE, Necrons, CSM, Orks, Eldar, IG, Tyranids, Tau, DH, WH, CSM3.5 8 Supplements (not called that at the time): Assassins, Catachans, SW, Craftworld, EOT, Arma, BA, DA, 1 Expansions: Cityfight 25 'Data slates'/'mini-supplements' (not called that at the time): 11 different army lists and 14 different optional units/rules all released in White Dwarf and Chapter Approved
4th Edition - 4 Years (2004-2008) (~2.5 codex per year) 10 Codexes: SM, Tyranids, BT, Tau, Eldar, DA, BA, CSM, CD, Orks 1 Supplements: Catachans Supplements: Cities of Death
5th Edition - 4 Years (2008-2012) (~2 codex per year) 9 Codexes - SM, Tyranids, SOB, IG, SW, BA, DE, GK, Nec 5 Expansions: Death Worlds, Spearhead, Battle Missions, Planetary Empries, Planetstrike
6th Edition - (2012-Present) (~3.5 codex per year, 5.5 per year if you count the mini-digi codexes) 7 Codexes: CSM, DA, CD, Tau, Eldar, SM, Tyr 4 questionable (mini/digi) codexes: AS, Inq, LotD, IK 5 Supplements: Raukaan, SoT, BL, Farsight, Iyanden 6 Expansions: Kill Team, Escalation, SHA, Death Worlds, DFTS, CoF 10 Dataslates - Tyr I, Tyr II, Tyr War Vet, Cypher, Reclusiam, Centurion, Eldar GW, Adeptus Astartes SW, Tau FB, Be'Lakor
6th edition has released almost twice many codexes as any previous edition in the normal time. Even if you exclude Inq, AS, Lotd and IK, they have released 7 codexes in 2 years which is more than any other edition.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why on earth do they think we're clamouring for a book about some random fallen Loyalist Chapter?
Maybe they assumed people liked Crimson Slaughter because the DV chosen models were so well-received? Maybe GW misinterpreted the demand for new Chaos models as a desire to learn more about the red paint job they were given?
It's stupid but that's the only thing I can come up with. That would also be assuming GW even knows the models are mostly well-liked, which they likely don't because they don't care what their customers think at all.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why on earth do they think we're clamouring for a book about some random fallen Loyalist Chapter?
Maybe they assumed people liked Crimson Slaughter because the DV chosen models were so well-received? Maybe GW misinterpreted the demand for new Chaos models as a desire to learn more about the red paint job they were given?
It's stupid but that's the only thing I can come up with. That would also be assuming GW even knows the models are mostly well-liked, which they likely don't because they don't care what their customers think at all.
More likely, someone in design / development really likes Crimson Slaughter and wanted to do a book about them.
Sidstyler wrote: So in other words no one is really clamoring for them and it's just a designer's pet project? That does make more sense, actually.
Wasn't there a recent WD article to that effect? They work on what they want to work on (outside of actual big releases).
I imagine a lot of the dataslate/supplement/extra stuff has to do with that. Designers/development sitting around and going... "I totally want to field more riptides! I'll make a dataslate."
Either way, I fixed the DA thing, so we're down to 2 per year in 3rd edition.
Two full codex books per year on average is basically what I remember from back then as well and it amounted to one new army book every 2-3 months roughly between the two big lines with a yearly LOTR starter/book around the winter premiere of the movies. You also had weekly releases of products previewed on the website but I guess that is back now with the smaller format White Dwarf. The types of stuff that comes out in the codex supplements would previously have been a web or WD article with a year end compilation of them all that costed less than a single supplement does now. IIRC, the Legion of the Damned were released that way in 3rd.
warboss wrote: Two full codex books per year on average is basically what I remember from back then as well and it amounted to one new army book every 2-3 months roughly between the two big lines with a yearly LOTR starter/book around the winter premiere of the movies. You also had weekly releases of products previewed on the website but I guess that is back now with the smaller format White Dwarf. The types of stuff that comes out in the codex supplements would previously have been a web or WD article with a year end compilation of them all that costed less than a single supplement does now. IIRC, the Legion of the Damned were released that way in 3rd.
Right and we're getting 3.5 full codex books per year now in 6th edition. We don't get previews and the stuff that would be a web or WD article either goes to print or is a digital release.
So even with all of the dataslates, extra stuff, we still get more full codex/army books than we did during any other edition.
edit: You may disagree with how they're releasing the extra stuff (digidex, supplement, etc vs White Dwarf/Web), but you can't say that it is slowing down our codex releases, since those are actually increasing in speed.
Sidstyler wrote: So in other words no one is really clamoring for them and it's just a designer's pet project? That does make more sense, actually.
Wasn't there a recent WD article to that effect? They work on what they want to work on (outside of actual big releases).
I imagine a lot of the dataslate/supplement/extra stuff has to do with that. Designers/development sitting around and going... "I totally want to field more riptides! I'll make a dataslate."
And that's why the Crimson Slaughter Supplement makes sense. As a player, any one of us would prefer special rules for our Legion army we've cultivated carefully based on old background. But as a designer, why would you want to just rehash something that has been done before by many others? Wouldn't you prefer to create your own brand new thing? Add to the 40k universe rather than simply rehash it?
Sidstyler wrote: So in other words no one is really clamoring for them and it's just a designer's pet project? That does make more sense, actually.
Wasn't there a recent WD article to that effect? They work on what they want to work on (outside of actual big releases).
I imagine a lot of the dataslate/supplement/extra stuff has to do with that. Designers/development sitting around and going... "I totally want to field more riptides! I'll make a dataslate."
And that's why the Crimson Slaughter Supplement makes sense. As a player, any one of us would prefer special rules for our Legion army we've cultivated carefully based on old background. But as a designer, why would you want to just rehash something that has been done before by many others? Wouldn't you prefer to create your own brand new thing? Add to the 40k universe rather than simply rehash it?
Rehash something that was ripped away while giving new things to SM?
Excessus wrote: Just as usual then, only this time the fluff is about somebody nobody cares about...
Pretty much. Very disappointed I was hoping for something to make Chaos good. I was excited about it, but I'm not paying $50 (technically $100 for C:CSM too) for pages of fluff, missions that nobody uses to refight battles nobody cares about, and one page of rules that lets me use a bad unit as Troops instead of Elites.
GW sure knows how to please the crowd. First black legion, now CS and posessed, and also a brand new helbrute. Who needs super heavy knights!
It really feels like they're just giving anyone who doesn't buy into their "forge the narrative" line and actually wants good rules the finger.
And that's been different from how they've run the game for the past few editions how?
Because you’re making false equivalencies. 3rd Ed and 6th Ed are most alike in that we have a mess of rules from multiple sources, but to categorise the various sources of rules from 3rd Ed (and 4th and 5th) using the modern 6th Ed parlance seems like nothing more than attempt to justify GW’s new methodology. Releasing a thin little book that says “Look in Codex Space Marines” for the rules for Tactical Squads is quite removed from a massive hard-back book that says “Possessed are Troops now”. They’re putting out physical and digital Codices for single units now, and that never happened in 3rd Ed. Closest we ever got to this in 3rd was the Assassins Codex, which had 4 units in it. 3rd Ed was a complete mess by the end due to all the various rules from various sources, but it’s not the same as 6th Ed.
As to the rest of what you said about productivity, I actually agree. GW has never been so active in their release schedule, and there doesn’t appear to be any downtime (even less now with the shift to weekly releases). It’s just a shame that they’re not putting their productivity to good use with things we actually want, like a Legion book, rather than things no one cares about, like Marine Chapter #47345 turning to Chaos.
pretre wrote: We're not sacrificing anything for these add-ons, in fact we're getting more.
I'd debate that as well. The studio's time couldn't have been better used making a Legions of Chaos book that all Chaos players would flock to buy, even if it included a few "buy all our play-sets and toys!" cynical nonsense like letting Iron Warriors take Squadrons of Helbrutes as Troops to drum up sales of the new kit? Nope. Rando Traitor Marines get a whole book to themselves. That's a better use of time and resources.
I am actually happy with this as I was with BL supplement. No new models and crimson codex saves my money. Thank you god, of warhammer. Btw, I totally agree with anyone saying that this new slaughter makes sense. Designers are there to create new things/rules from nothing, and rebuilding old legion rules even if it pains me to say is not creative. Believe me I wanted badly night lords rules. But I m still a happy hippo with what I have. I enjoy csm when I play with friends, and if I wanna go competitive I play daemons, or I mix daemons with csm.
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anyways. Yes there are independent structures of warbands that have left the legions on their own, but so what? It's not like we're cutting Ultramarines identity because they have a million successor chapters.
I'm not sure why the hatred for loyalist players and the sweeping statements, either. What Space Wolf player would begrudge a Thousand Sons player a codex/supplement? What Imperial Fists player (via Sentinels of Terra) would deny an Iron Warriors player a codex/supplement? 
