So where does the Ironclad come in, or do you mean a furioso? What's your thinking behind this formation that males it so great, I can actually remember which on it is, is it the Death Company one?
Grav command squads are pretty interesting, but if you're dropping in you won't be benefiting from max shots, and after you've dropped you'll either take casulties, reducing effectiveness for future shooting or you opponent will just move out of range...
D
Mortalis requires a Chaplain, 3 Death Company Squads, two Death Company Dreads, and I think a Stormraven. In my opinion, it isn't that great. It seems to more exist as a way to field an army that consists solely of DC and a Chaplain.
Anyone else finding that their best lists end up looking like highlander lists? All of the BA lists that ive built for tournaments, including the one im playing in a league right now, repeat one, maybe two units. The rest are standalone choices.
Does this codex lend itself to this strategy over spam? Certainly seems so.
So where does the Ironclad come in, or do you mean a furioso? What's your thinking behind this formation that males it so great, I can actually remember which on it is, is it the Death Company one?
Grav command squads are pretty interesting, but if you're dropping in you won't be benefiting from max shots, and after you've dropped you'll either take casulties, reducing effectiveness for future shooting or you opponent will just move out of range...
D
Mortalis requires a Chaplain, 3 Death Company Squads, two Death Company Dreads, and I think a Stormraven. In my opinion, it isn't that great. It seems to more exist as a way to field an army that consists solely of DC and a Chaplain.
Strike Force Mortalis gives you 5 Elite slots, that can be used basically. Then you'd just take a normal 3 Ironclads, for a total of 5 dreadnoughts 3 of which land on the first turn and can be the Furiosos or the Death company. Like so...
Also, the Death Company Dreadnoughts in this formation when charging a unit that has more models get's another +1 attack. So on the charge it has 7 attacks.
Strike Force Mortalis
5 man Death Company
5 man Death Company
5 man Death Company
Death Company Dreadnought
Death Company Dreadnought
Chappy
1 Tactical Squad x 10 w/ meltagun, H. Flamer, meltabombs
Stormraven
1 Tactical Squad x 10 w/ meltagun, H. Flamer, meltabombs
Stormraven
Total : 1095
Strike Force Mortalis
Death Company Dreadnought w/ Drop Pod (160)
Death Company Dreadnought w/ Drop Pod (160)
Death Company w/ Drop Pod (135)
Death Company w/ Jump Packs (115)
Death Company w/ Jump Packs (115)
Chaplain ( 90 )
Total : 1870
Angels Fury is notable for allowing first turn assaults, plus all troops are Objective Secured, plus the whole deep strike assault near 2 of them.
Highlander is a concept from MtG where you take a maximum of 1 of each card.
And I have to agree.
For many armies the best way to play is to take as much of certain units as possible.
But every time I try to build a BA-list it comes down to: 1 group of this, 1 of this and 1 of this.
Hmm. I dunno, in my last game I really felt that I could've used a second squad of DC. Although I did charge them into a sternguard/ libby/foot slot chapter master until as the unit failed to get Invis off, I then wiffed and didn't kill enough and it proceeded to get invis off in all the following turns and kept me tied up...
God damn Invis is so annoying, especially now we can't get it.
Has anyone thought of an MSU jumper strategy? I just hashed out a list with 2x5 death co, 5 sanguinary guard, a fragpod, 2x5 scouts with melta bombs, 2x5 tri melta asm squads, 2 baals and a stormraven, led by dante and a priest. Presents a lot of targets to shoot at, all of which can do some damage if allowed to get in close.
th3maninblak wrote: Has anyone thought of an MSU jumper strategy? I just hashed out a list with 2x5 death co, 5 sanguinary guard, a fragpod, 2x5 scouts with melta bombs, 2x5 tri melta asm squads, 2 baals and a stormraven, led by dante and a priest. Presents a lot of targets to shoot at, all of which can do some damage if allowed to get in close.
I've been toying with something similar, but have been looking at about 8 in each squad. My last list had 32 jump pack infantry (16x Death Company, 8x Vanguard, 8x Sanguinary Guard) and 35 foot infantry (15x assault marines, 20x tacticals). Very choppy with decent resiliency through numbers.
Thought of it and didn't fancy it as 5 marines last no time at all. If you have any joy then let us know. But it's been no luck for me with them.
Im using them in a league at the moment. Command squad with 3 meltas, 2x5 melta asm squads and another 5 man assault marine squad with 2 flamers. On top of a 10 man tac squad with melta+combi+heavy flamer in a pod it gives me 11 accurately deep striking melta guns (using dantes warlord trait). There are at least 4 knights in the league, and that many melta guns just cores them.
Should jump packs be an auto upgrade for libraiums and priest? Is that extra manourability worth it? I'm mainly asking as I don't know the best units to run them with.
Jump Packs still dominate our armies so Sanguinary Priest or Librarian does support your army with a Jump Pack, but there are still tons of reasons why my Libbies/Priests don't necessarily have JP's.
Bikes, Terminators, Tacitcals, anything in Drop Pod etc...
So ive pretty much compiled all my findings from the 20+ games with this codex so far and put together the "best" list i can make without resorting to ally/detachment/multi CAD shenanigans. I havent tried it out yet, but im pretty excited to come the first tournament after this league. Here is an approximation.
MSU Jumpers
LOW
-Dante
HQ -sanguinary priest
Jump pack
Pistol
Power sword
ELITES
-5x death co
Sword
Fist
Jump packs
-5x death co
Sword
Fist
Jump packs
-5x sang guard
2x fists
Chapter banner
-frag dread
Heavy flamer
Pod
TROOPS
-5x scouts
Shanks
Melta bomb
-5x scouts
Shanks
Melta bomb
FAST ATTACK
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Baal pred
assault cannon
Heavy bolters
-baal pred
Assault cannon
Heavy bolters
-stormraven
Lascannon
Multi melta
Hurricane bolters
1846
The baals have been really good to me, even when testing tri laspreds i find myself missing them. There are so many monsters in this area and large groups of infantry (green tide, etc) mixed in with mechanized forces that the swiss army knife nature of the baal just shines through.
For those aren't running Dante , what do we think the best HQ choice is, in terms of it being our warlord?
I really like Librarians but the lack of an invul means they lack durability, obviously you can put him in TDA with a Storm shield, but then you really need a termie squad to out him in and a delivery system which comes to a huge point investment...
Captains obviously have access to a 2+/3++, you can put him a on bike for extra T, but then you need a decent bike squad preferably with a bike priest (which is both you hq slots, so no Librarian...)
Chaplains are really cool fluffwise but they only offer a minor buff to a single unit, aren't especially durable or punchy .
Priests offer food buffing, but no access to arty armour or an invul doesn't make them a good choice for a Warlord choice.
evildrcheese wrote: For those aren't running Dante , what do we think the best HQ choice is, in terms of it being our warlord?
I really like Librarians but the lack of an invul means they lack durability, obviously you can put him in TDA with a Storm shield, but then you really need a termie squad to out him in and a delivery system which comes to a huge point investment...
Captains obviously have access to a 2+/3++, you can put him a on bike for extra T, but then you need a decent bike squad preferably with a bike priest (which is both you hq slots, so no Librarian...)
Chaplains are really cool fluffwise but they only offer a minor buff to a single unit, aren't especially durable or punchy .
Priests offer food buffing, but no access to arty armour or an invul doesn't make them a good choice for a Warlord choice.
D
Captain all the way.
Librarians CAN be really strong, but rely on too many decent dice rolls to unlock their full potential. Also BA dont generate enough power dice to get too many powers off vs other psychic armies. Chaplains are cool, and go great with death company, but with only 2 wounds and no 2+ armor the arent as durable as a proper warlord should be.
A captain with artificer armor and valours edge with either a jump pack or a bike makes a cheap and fairly durable combat character that also makes a good warlord. For some more points you could take a relic blade+storm shield with the extra strategic trait and whatever mobility option you want. Either option is good.
So you tested a lot this new codex? cool
can i ask you something about the list you posted?
1) what detachment you use? i suppose Baal Strike but there are so many around you can't be sure about
2) what's the "shank" on your scout unit? they are equipped sniper or close combat?
3) 5 sanguinary guard are'nt too few? i found myself a bit concerned on small unit because tend to be crushed very easily... :\
4) is ASM drop podded?
5) what if did'nt use Dante? (already seen other's replies so maybe an artificier captain on bike/jump)
6) what to face MC spam? autocannon baal predator is enough?
i mainly play at 1750 so i will need to tweak it a little...
evildrcheese wrote: For those aren't running Dante , what do we think the best HQ choice is, in terms of it being our warlord?
I really like Librarians but the lack of an invul means they lack durability, obviously you can put him in TDA with a Storm shield, but then you really need a termie squad to out him in and a delivery system which comes to a huge point investment...
Captains obviously have access to a 2+/3++, you can put him a on bike for extra T, but then you need a decent bike squad preferably with a bike priest (which is both you hq slots, so no Librarian...)
Chaplains are really cool fluffwise but they only offer a minor buff to a single unit, aren't especially durable or punchy .
Priests offer food buffing, but no access to arty armour or an invul doesn't make them a good choice for a Warlord choice.
D
Captain all the way.
Librarians CAN be really strong, but rely on too many decent dice rolls to unlock their full potential. Also BA dont generate enough power dice to get too many powers off vs other psychic armies. Chaplains are cool, and go great with death company, but with only 2 wounds and no 2+ armor the arent as durable as a proper warlord should be.
A captain with artificer armor and valours edge with either a jump pack or a bike makes a cheap and fairly durable combat character that also makes a good warlord. For some more points you could take a relic blade+storm shield with the extra strategic trait and whatever mobility option you want. Either option is good.
That relic that gives two strategic traits is really cool. I've used it a couple of times and have been really impressed with it.
I'll give the Captain a go maybe with a jp and put hide him in my DC. I don't currently run Sang guard who would be my other contender of a unit to put him in. I wish we had a way to take more HQs, the BA can offer so many buffs but there's just not enough slots to do it.
I'm not impressed by the named characters at all, except for Dante.
The Captain is slightly better than in last codex but somehow I don't bother using him outside fluffy setups. Librarian still benefits the army more and the benefits he gives to his squads are superior to the extra hit of the Captain.
I'm not impressed by the named characters at all, except for Dante.
The Captain is slightly better than in last codex but somehow I don't bother using him outside fluffy setups.
Librarian still benefits the army more and the benefits he gives to his squads are superior to the extra hit of the Captain.
Really? I would reverse that order.
1) Sanguinary priest. Cheap, surprisingly killy, gives massive buffs to his squad.
2) Captain. Solid combat character, hyper efficient in terms of cost to effectiveness ratio, makesa solid warlord.
3) Librarian. Can be awesome, but relies on too many random rolls (powers, warp charges, etc) to be consistent. As fragile as the priest, and the army doesnt usually generate enough power dice for him to do a ton.
Of the special characters, Dante is a monster, Mephiston is points efficient and is fantastic at cutting knights and thunderwolves down, and Astorath has become a very low costed character who is decent in combat, fairly durable, and turns the damage output of the best unit in the codex up to 11.
Yeah Astorath and Dante with a squad of Death Company is a terrifying sight to behold. I watched a battle report where that unit killed like 40 hounds and 2 Heralds in two assault phases. The Hounds even had Invisibility in one of the phases.. .
Here is a List I thought of, it requires double force org though :(
Baal strike force-
Captain w/ artificer, bike, Valor's Edge-150
Sang priest w/ power weapon, bolt pistol, bike-96
company command squad w/ jump packs- 125
6 man bike unit w/ 2 grav guns, w/ vet sgt combi grav-166
6 man bike unit w/ 2 grav guns, w/ vet sgt combi grav-166
6 man bike unit w/ 2 grav guns, w/ vet sgt combi grav-166
6 man DC w/ jump packs 1 TH-168
6 man DC w/ jump packs 1 TH-168
5 man tac squad-70
5 man tac squad- 70
CAD detachment-
Sang priest w/ bike, power weapon- 96
Sang priest w/ bike, power weapon- 96
scouts-55
scouts-55
ASM w/2 melta, combi melta-115
ASM w/2 melta combi-melta-115
this leaves you 90 points to play with, you can do several things,
drop combi-weapons from bikes, give them power weapons (what I actually prefer here myself, though most of dakka will disagree)
give tacs a heavy weapon so they can take pot shots at things
or give the ASM sgts duel inferno pistols, would take up another 40 points of the remaining 90.
or you could drop the command squad (which imo is a steal for their price) to take sang guard, but all that ap2 will be going into them then, which I don't like.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ofc, you could drop the 2nd detachment for even more points to play with and add a storm raven or two, with enough points after that for several toys in the squads (or.... more boys, ugh)
raiden wrote: Here is a List I thought of, it requires double force org though :(
Baal strike force-
Captain w/ artificer, bike, Valor's Edge-150
Sang priest w/ power weapon, bolt pistol, bike-96
company command squad w/ jump packs- 125
6 man bike unit w/ 2 grav guns, w/ vet sgt combi grav-166
6 man bike unit w/ 2 grav guns, w/ vet sgt combi grav-166
6 man bike unit w/ 2 grav guns, w/ vet sgt combi grav-166
6 man DC w/ jump packs 1 TH-168
6 man DC w/ jump packs 1 TH-168
5 man tac squad-70
5 man tac squad- 70
CAD detachment-
Sang priest w/ bike, power weapon- 96
Sang priest w/ bike, power weapon- 96
scouts-55
scouts-55
ASM w/2 melta, combi melta-115
ASM w/2 melta combi-melta-115
this leaves you 90 points to play with, you can do several things,
drop combi-weapons from bikes, give them power weapons (what I actually prefer here myself, though most of dakka will disagree)
give tacs a heavy weapon so they can take pot shots at things
or give the ASM sgts duel inferno pistols, would take up another 40 points of the remaining 90.
or you could drop the command squad (which imo is a steal for their price) to take sang guard, but all that ap2 will be going into them then, which I don't like.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ofc, you could drop the 2nd detachment for even more points to play with and add a storm raven or two, with enough points after that for several toys in the squads (or.... more boys, ugh)
Interesting list. Does the lack of air support concern you?
Does the command squad have any upgrades other than than the jump packs? What's their role exactly?
The command squad comes built in with a champion w/ power weapon and combat shield, and sang novitiate. Get 4 attacks on the charge. Its imo, a pretty strong unit, that looks very non-intimidating but is deadly on the charge. They are there as back up wherever I need/want them and a bully unit. Not meant to take on scary CC things but go after the things they can reliably kill, while still being potentially able to take on bigger CC units.
As said, if you wanted you could drop the ASM for a storm raven from the 2nd detachment or just drop it entirely (losing some fnp for the bikes ) and take two ravens with a good 100 points to spare. Possibly upgrading the bike sgts. Ive just started testing it, but it works fairly well so far, my local meta has limited flyer spam .
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could also use the spare points to make the command squad shooty if you so wish, but idk if I would, turns them into a target fast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is anyone else a bit upset that our command squad doesnt have the option to take bikes? I love bikes man.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could also give them 3 storm shields if you so wished. (Sadly, the champion and novitiate cannot take them or special weapons, veterans only)
When i run a command squad, theyve always toted 3 melta guns. 155 for 5 dudes with fnp that are decent in combat, have jump packs and are packing 3 anti tank weapons is awesome.
The name of the game for blood angels is efficiency. Everything in our army is amazingly cost effective, though we lack the ability to field true death stars. 2 meltas+combi for 115 points, or 3 meltas+champion+apothecary for 155 points (all with jump, of course), super fighty captains for under 150, free weapons onvanguard/sternguard vets, all of this just screams about getting more bang for your buck.
raiden wrote: The command squad comes built in with a champion w/ power weapon and combat shield, and sang novitiate. Get 4 attacks on the charge. Its imo, a pretty strong unit, that looks very non-intimidating but is deadly on the charge. They are there as back up wherever I need/want them and a bully unit. Not meant to take on scary CC things but go after the things they can reliably kill, while still being potentially able to take on bigger CC units.
As said, if you wanted you could drop the ASM for a storm raven from the 2nd detachment or just drop it entirely (losing some fnp for the bikes ) and take two ravens with a good 100 points to spare. Possibly upgrading the bike sgts. Ive just started testing it, but it works fairly well so far, my local meta has limited flyer spam .
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could also use the spare points to make the command squad shooty if you so wish, but idk if I would, turns them into a target fast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is anyone else a bit upset that our command squad doesnt have the option to take bikes? I love bikes man.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could also give them 3 storm shields if you so wished. (Sadly, the champion and novitiate cannot take them or special weapons, veterans only)
I can see them working as a bully unit, I forgot about the Sang Novitiate so they have FNP. The champ does have to issue and accept challenges so a canny opponent can deny the unit of it's teeth.
I would maybe move the Tac marines to the CAD and give them heavy weapons and use the as Obj Sec backfield holders. And put the scouts in the BSF and make the sgt a vet sgt and give them power weapons if points permit. That way you can get some scouts in your opponents face due to infiltrate and scout, and the tac squads can sit back and shoot heavy weapons and will need to be taken out or contested by another obj sec unit.
bloodoffi wrote: So i heard a lot about a debate for the angels fury wing. When the stormravens arrive at turn 1 do the marines from drop pods assault or not?
There was a large thread on it here with no real conclusion drawn - honestly I would clear it up with your opponent before turn 1 until a FAQ is released. Personally I think it should.
I have had a few games with the new dex now, trying out different things (versing tyranids or nurgle marines). I have noticed a few things:
1) Our anti air is gak - 10 points extra per missile launcher is really pricey, so our only real viable option is the raven and in smaller games that is a lot of points to sink into 1 model.
2) Dante is an absolute machine but he does need something to support him or he will get shot to pieces. (honestly still toying with ideas here, thinking vanguard vets or sanguinary guard are the way to go...)
3) Corbulo is actually amazing, probably one of my favourite HQs to date - with his extra WS, FNP and all his high initiative rending attacks he is a very decent dude.
4) Not having objective secured is actually a real bummer with the Baal Strike Force - this alone probably cost me a game yesterday as there was a point contested by my tactical squad and my opponents plague marines - and those fethers just don't die very easily. He ended up winning by 2 tactical objectives at the end of turn 5. I start to wonder if the extra I is worth it...
5) Don't sent your captain with command squad into a bunch of terminators - it wont end well.
EDIT 6) Scouts be getting a lot of hate, but I have found even 5 dudes with sniper rifles and camo cloaks in an objective in terrain, they will quite possibly be ignored and hold it most of the game. That topped off with the snipers ability to pick off things with some lucky shots makes them quite a cost effective troop choice.
I'm not impressed by the named characters at all, except for Dante.
The Captain is slightly better than in last codex but somehow I don't bother using him outside fluffy setups.
Librarian still benefits the army more and the benefits he gives to his squads are superior to the extra hit of the Captain.
Really? I would reverse that order.
1) Sanguinary priest. Cheap, surprisingly killy, gives massive buffs to his squad.
2) Captain. Solid combat character, hyper efficient in terms of cost to effectiveness ratio, makesa solid warlord.
3) Librarian. Can be awesome, but relies on too many random rolls (powers, warp charges, etc) to be consistent. As fragile as the priest, and the army doesnt usually generate enough power dice for him to do a ton.
Of the special characters, Dante is a monster, Mephiston is points efficient and is fantastic at cutting knights and thunderwolves down, and Astorath has become a very low costed character who is decent in combat, fairly durable, and turns the damage output of the best unit in the codex up to 11.
Interesting. With what equipment and squad do you run your Captains?
And forgot about Mephiston, he still gets stuff done!
Corbulo is situational and Astorath works well with the Death Company.
Out of curiousity, how do you feel about Lemartes?
bloodoffi wrote: So i heard a lot about a debate for the angels fury wing. When the stormravens arrive at turn 1 do the marines from drop pods assault or not?
There was a large thread on it here with no real conclusion drawn - honestly I would clear it up with your opponent before turn 1 until a FAQ is released. Personally I think it should.
I have had a few games with the new dex now, trying out different things (versing tyranids or nurgle marines). I have noticed a few things:
1) Our anti air is gak - 10 points extra per missile launcher is really pricey, so our only real viable option is the raven and in smaller games that is a lot of points to sink into 1 model.
2) Dante is an absolute machine but he does need something to support him or he will get shot to pieces. (honestly still toying with ideas here, thinking vanguard vets or sanguinary guard are the way to go...)
3) Corbulo is actually amazing, probably one of my favourite HQs to date - with his extra WS, FNP and all his high initiative rending attacks he is a very decent dude.
4) Not having objective secured is actually a real bummer with the Baal Strike Force - this alone probably cost me a game yesterday as there was a point contested by my tactical squad and my opponents plague marines - and those fethers just don't die very easily. He ended up winning by 2 tactical objectives at the end of turn 5. I start to wonder if the extra I is worth it...
5) Don't sent your captain with command squad into a bunch of terminators - it wont end well.
EDIT 6) Scouts be getting a lot of hate, but I have found even 5 dudes with sniper rifles and camo cloaks in an objective in terrain, they will quite possibly be ignored and hold it most of the game. That topped off with the snipers ability to pick off things with some lucky shots makes them quite a cost effective troop choice.
1) Agreed.
2) Sanguinary Guard is my choice. Compared to the Vanguard Vets, they get artificer armors and sort-of-PW's for 11 ppm.
3) Corbulo isn't that impressive if you ask me. Maybe it's just compared to the last dex, but I just don't see it. Not having a Jump Pack is one problem. And his Warlord trait... Extra Initiative? Really? It is lirerally the last thing he needs.
Buffing your own squad is great, but he just doesn't work with my guys that well. The only non-JP-non-Bike units I use are Tacticals and Assault Terminators with TH/SS combo so the buffs are wasted there.
4) I personally have not missed OS that much. My Troops are mostly Tacticals that keep in the midfield and hardly encounter any objective deniers. On the other hand, I see that the extra initiative doesn't seem that great. It has been useful but I'm still waiting for a situation where it actually effects the game.
5) Rule of thumb: don't send anything into a bunch of Terminators unless you wish to die or have 4++ or better/Eternal Warrior/lot's of AP2. Preferably avoid it until you have all three.
6) I like Scouts, but I don't like Snipers. Five of them means that you statistically wound the enemy about once per turn. And most of the time he gets armor saves for that.
Mobile objective scorers, on the other hand... I like it. Bolters or CCW's.
I run my captain with arty armor, a jump pack, and Valour's Edge, and have him bomb around with either dante, a priest and some sanguinary guard if i want to make a voltron super unit, ormore commonly 8-10 death company with 3 to 4 various close combat weapons. I personally prefer the death co escort.
And Lemmy is... eh. He's certainly not BAD, but for a few more points you could just have astorath, and lemmartes takes up one of our precious elite slots.
The only valid choice would be some really choppy JP squad, and since ASM is a bit lackluster it really leaves you three options.
Vanguard Vets? Why, Death Company are better in every way.
The Death Company then? Nah, a Chaplain or Astorath does way more there.
The Sanguinary Guard? Yes. That's it.
But... If you use Sanguinary Guard, you propably have Dante there alreasy for the DoA, right?
So give me one reason why should I use the Captain in the same squad as Dante? He does everything my cute little Captain could, only better.
So the only real use for Captain that I see is a cheap alternative for Dante in smaller games, or ones that won't allow LoW's.
I just don't find an effective way of using him. It's a shame, but can't change it.
I haven't actually used a chaplain in a game in 7th since the new dex dropped, the lack of reclusiarch made me sad. I might need to invest in Astorath though, that guy is a bit of a boss...
A lot of tournaments still dont allow lords of war. In my no LoW list i run a priest with 5 sang guard and a cappy with 10 death co. The chaplain gives hatred, but fearless is wasted and the captain is better in combat and more durable for just a bit more points.
And putting him with dante and a priest gives you more high initiative ap2 attacks and another guy to tank small arms fire and plasma wounds.
th3maninblak wrote: A lot of tournaments still dont allow lords of war. In my no LoW list i run a priest with 5 sang guard and a cappy with 10 death co. The chaplain gives hatred, but fearless is wasted and the captain is better in combat and more durable for just a bit more points.
And putting him with dante and a priest gives you more high initiative ap2 attacks and another guy to tank small arms fire and plasma wounds.
Yeah I have found my captain performs well when I have used him... WHen he was with Dante and a 10 man assault squad and a priest, it was a mighty killy unit but I found having all my eggs a tad risky...
One thing I am yet to make my mind up on is whether or not I want the extra attack on my DC and to give them BP's or if I want the extra firepower and give them boltguns (exception being power swords, these guys will always have pistols).
The only valid choice would be some really choppy JP squad, and since ASM is a bit lackluster it really leaves you three options.
Vanguard Vets? Why, Death Company are better in every way.
The Death Company then? Nah, a Chaplain or Astorath does way more there.
The Sanguinary Guard? Yes. That's it.
But... If you use Sanguinary Guard, you propably have Dante there alreasy for the DoA, right?
So give me one reason why should I use the Captain in the same squad as Dante? He does everything my cute little Captain could, only better.
So the only real use for Captain that I see is a cheap alternative for Dante in smaller games, or ones that won't allow LoW's.
I just don't find an effective way of using him. It's a shame, but can't change it.
I mentioned this in another thread about captains, but I'll mention it again here. One use for a Captain when running Dante us to give him a SS and Thunderhammer, JP and Arty Armour. Then you LOS all the <8 ap2 (ala Plasma) onto the SS and risk and >7 on Dante's 4++, through in a Sang priest for the FNP and run them with together. It's very pointy but it adds a nice bit of durability to the unit.
The only valid choice would be some really choppy JP squad, and since ASM is a bit lackluster it really leaves you three options.
Vanguard Vets? Why, Death Company are better in every way.
The Death Company then? Nah, a Chaplain or Astorath does way more there.
The Sanguinary Guard? Yes. That's it.
But... If you use Sanguinary Guard, you propably have Dante there alreasy for the DoA, right?
So give me one reason why should I use the Captain in the same squad as Dante? He does everything my cute little Captain could, only better.
So the only real use for Captain that I see is a cheap alternative for Dante in smaller games, or ones that won't allow LoW's.
I just don't find an effective way of using him. It's a shame, but can't change it.
I mentioned this in another thread about captains, but I'll mention it again here. One use for a Captain when running Dante us to give him a SS and Thunderhammer, JP and Arty Armour. Then you LOS all the <8 ap2 (ala Plasma) onto the SS and risk and >7 on Dante's 4++, through in a Sang priest for the FNP and run them with together. It's very pointy but it adds a nice bit of durability to the unit.
D
...Why are you risking the >7s on Dante? Doesnt a captain also have an iron halo anyway?
I feel like I missing the point of this strat completely
I dont know if this has been covered, but Ive been having huge success with a terminator libby equipped with Valor s Edge. Rolling on biomancy once for Warp Speed or Iron Arm, Then rolling on Sanguinary and taking the Primaris. Either D3+3 strength and initiative or D3 plus Iron arm with and AP2 sword. Ive been weed whacking through units.
So everyone seems super afraid of the new necron wraiths. Honestly i think we're pretty well set against them. We strike simultaneously on the charge and wound them on 4s. From there we are basically fighting 2 wound marines.
th3maninblak wrote: So everyone seems super afraid of the new necron wraiths. Honestly i think we're pretty well set against them. We strike simultaneously on the charge and wound them on 4s. From there we are basically fighting 2 wound marines.
Two wound marines with what chainswords should have, rend. :p
SharkoutofWata wrote: Eternal Warrior. Captains don't have immunity to S8+ Instant Kill effect.
Exactly, the captain is a plasma equivalent sponge, and even if he feels the 3++ he gets FNP from the priest, but if he eats a Lascannon shot he'll be doubled out. Dante has ET so you only risk losing a wound from anything that would double the Captain out.
Would Dante get FNP from S8 and higher shots due to having ET, and thus ignoring ID effects. At work so I can't check the wording on ID/FNP/ET.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Eternal Warrior. Captains don't have immunity to S8+ Instant Kill effect.
Exactly, the captain is a plasma equivalent sponge, and even if he feels the 3++ he gets FNP from the priest, but if he eats a Lascannon shot he'll be doubled out. Dante has ET so you only risk losing a wound from anything that would double the Captain out.
Would Dante get FNP from S8 and higher shots due to having ET, and thus ignoring ID effects. At work so I can't check the wording on ID/FNP/ET.
D
Ahh I know how eternal warrior works... I am just a full derp and didn't even realise Dante had it.....woops! (hasn't been instant deathed while using him but it would have changed my game style quite significantly!)
Eternal Warrior is worded in way that it doesn't reduce the Wounds to 0, not that it ignores the effects. So FNP wouldn't come into effect because of the other effects of Instant Death. Shame...
Adding in a Librarian with Biomancy's Life Leech would be a big bonus but that would eliminate the Captain HQ slot. What if using just Dante in the squad with the Librarian (or added in because of another Detachment) to give Wounds back to the 'tank' models.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I dont know if this has been covered, but Ive been having huge success with a terminator libby equipped with Valor s Edge. Rolling on biomancy once for Warp Speed or Iron Arm, Then rolling on Sanguinary and taking the Primaris. Either D3+3 strength and initiative or D3 plus Iron arm with and AP2 sword. Ive been weed whacking through units.
Interesting. Do you give him a Stormshield? What support unit is he going with and what about a delivery mechanism.
What do you do if you don't get Iron Arm/Waep Speed. Do you still use you second roll on Sang or another on Bio for the Phychic Focus?
I'd also be interested to know what the rest of your list looms like.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I dont know if this has been covered, but Ive been having huge success with a terminator libby equipped with Valor s Edge. Rolling on biomancy once for Warp Speed or Iron Arm, Then rolling on Sanguinary and taking the Primaris. Either D3+3 strength and initiative or D3 plus Iron arm with and AP2 sword. Ive been weed whacking through units.
Interesting. Do you give him a Stormshield? What support unit is he going with and what about a delivery mechanism.
What do you do if you don't get Iron Arm/Waep Speed. Do you still use you second roll on Sang or another on Bio for the Phychic Focus?
I'd also be interested to know what the rest of your list looms like.
D
If it was me I'd probably roll the second on sang still.
If you dont get Iron Arm you might get Endurance (not bad), Warp Speed (again not too bad) or Life Leech.
Enfeeble and Haemorrhage aren't that bad either, enfeeble could still give you and upperhand on combat, Haemorrhage has potential to do a lot but I wouldn't rely on that too heavily - would be tempted to swap it for the primaris.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I dont know if this has been covered, but Ive been having huge success with a terminator libby equipped with Valor s Edge. Rolling on biomancy once for Warp Speed or Iron Arm, Then rolling on Sanguinary and taking the Primaris. Either D3+3 strength and initiative or D3 plus Iron arm with and AP2 sword. Ive been weed whacking through units.
Interesting. Do you give him a Stormshield? What support unit is he going with and what about a delivery mechanism.
What do you do if you don't get Iron Arm/Waep Speed. Do you still use you second roll on Sang or another on Bio for the Phychic Focus?
I'd also be interested to know what the rest of your list looms like.
D
If it was me I'd probably roll the second on sang still.
If you dont get Iron Arm you might get Endurance (not bad), Warp Speed (again not too bad) or Life Leech.
Enfeeble and Haemorrhage aren't that bad either, enfeeble could still give you and upperhand on combat, Haemorrhage has potential to do a lot but I wouldn't rely on that too heavily - would be tempted to swap it for the primaris.
If I dont get warp speed or iron arm, I still roll on sanguinary. Ive consistently gotten lucky with getting warp speed though. Yes, I give him a storm shield and he rides into battle with 5 TH/SS terminators in a Storm raven. Yesterday I was charged by a Bloodthirster with a regeneration ability and killed it very quickly. +6 Attacks and +6 Initiative got me to a base 8 attacks at initiative 10. The storm Shield kept him alive as well as endurance being casted on him by a fellow terminator Libby.
My list is usually built off of two terminator libbys and a Furioso Libby, a unit of TH/SS terminators, a storm raven and various tactical squads in Lasplas razorbacks.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: My list is usually built off of two terminator libbys and a Furioso Libby, a unit of TH/SS terminators, a storm raven and various tactical squads in Lasplas razorbacks.
Sounds interesting... Would you mind posting an example list of 2000 points?
The thing is, unless I'm running two detachments and mephiston I don't like psychic powers. To many dice rolls for one thing to come together. You have to get the power, then you have to be able to cast it.
Ive been toying around with the idea of running an allied detachment of sentinels of terra. Not only do they drop pod well, but you also have the bones of osrek for extra warp charges. D6+6 warp charges seems fine.
2k blood angels
Baal strike force-
Corbulo-120
Mephiston-175
5 man tac w/ lascannon-90
Cassor the damned-140
Assault terminators, 3 LCs 2THs- 210
7 man DC w/ Fist and jump packs- 186
7 man DC w/ Fist and jump packs- 186
Storm Raven-200
6 man bike squad w/ 2 grav combi-grav-166
6 man bike squad w/ 2 grav combi-grav-166
CAD detachment-
Sang priest w/ bike, bolt pistol, power aze-96
Sang priest w/ bike, bolt pistol, power axe-96
Sniper scouts-55
Sniper scounts-55
What do you guys think? I could swap mephy out for a captain, get valor’s edge, digital weapons, and save about 25-30 points. I still have about 50pts left to go in this list.
Thinking that a Libby is the best HQ choice in a codex with 4/5 warp charges at max, is very sad.
Its difficult find a way to compete with the best codex, seems that now BA are very near the bottom.
raiden wrote: The thing is, unless I'm running two detachments and mephiston I don't like psychic powers. To many dice rolls for one thing to come together. You have to get the power, then you have to be able to cast it.
I'm not looking for specific powers. And I'm casting a lot of blessings, so they are not too bad to get off.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Thinking that a Libby is the best HQ choice in a codex with 4/5 warp charges at max, is very sad.
Its difficult find a way to compete with the best codex, seems that now BA are very near the bottom.
No, the priest is the best HQ in the book, hands down. And there are a ton of people on this thread that would strongly disagree with that statement about the power of BA, myself included.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Eldar, Deamons, Tau, Wolves... all these dex seem to have units, special rules or psy BA cannot manage.
and maybe I should add Vanilla to the list..
Eldar have wave serpents, which are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Melta spam, frag cannons, etc. All of those work. Daemons have FMC spam, but they either fly around and shoot or land and die. Again, difficult, but not impossible. Tau have riptides, i guess? Which arent scary at all once you close a bit. And half the assault units in our book ace thunderwolf cav from space wolves. Vanilla marines have centurions, which unless theyre in an invisible death star die like everything else.
Maybe instead of being all doom and gloom about a good book, learn to play it. Or just learn to play.
I think BA is a harder Codex to play well than the ones you've mentioned but I don't think it's necessarily 'weaker'.
We certainly seem to lack any obvious auto-takes, which have that combination of durability, being very killy and reasonably pointed (think TWC, Wraiths), we also lack the proper beatstick CC monster (Let's be honest as good as Dante is SmashFether is the measuring stick here).
We also lack the ability to bring the volume of fire, especially high S with extra buffs such as rerolls, cover stripping etc.
So it can be quite difficult to understand the niche that BA fill, but I feel that because we have access to so much rapid deployment and precision deployment as well as a decent CC punch and interesting formation/detachments, a BA army with a good general can really surprise an opponent.
Are we a top tier codex? Probably not, but we're by no means the worst codex.
evildrcheese wrote: I think BA is a harder Codex to play well than the ones you've mentioned but I don't think it's necessarily 'weaker'.
We certainly seem to lack any obvious auto-takes, which have that combination of durability, being very killy and reasonably pointed (think TWC, Wraiths), we also lack the proper beatstick CC monster (Let's be honest as good as Dante is SmashFether is the measuring stick here).
We also lack the ability to bring the volume of fire, especially high S with extra buffs such as rerolls, cover stripping etc.
So it can be quite difficult to understand the niche that BA fill, but I feel that because we have access to so much rapid deployment and precision deployment as well as a decent CC punch and interesting formation/detachments, a BA army with a good general can really surprise an opponent.
Are we a top tier codex? Probably not, but we're by no means the worst codex.
D
That's probably quite a balanced look at it.
To be honest I've not yet played a game with the new codex, it just doesn't excite me enough. Which Is a shame as ended up being quite excited on the run up to it's release.
I've yet to see a build I like either, too many seem a bit 'battleforcey' for my tastes. When I do start writing down list ideas, they always turn into a monobuild - BSF 4x DC, 3x Bikes, 2x Scouts + some other stuff.
BA in theory seem ok in Maelstrom missions purely because of the number of fast units they can bring.
It's not the worst codex though, or even the worst codex with 'Angels' in the title
In my opinion the problem is that we do have pretty obvious auto-takes, such as Sanguinary Priest, Death Company, Dante for example.
They just aren't good enough when compared to the other codices.
TWC > Death Company
Smashfether > Dante
We do have a good and balanced army. We have the shooting power of SM equivalents and a great assault potential.
But I don't see the Blood Angels as a tournament army, outside of some gimmicky formations and such.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Eldar, Deamons, Tau, Wolves... all these dex seem to have units, special rules or psy BA cannot manage.
and maybe I should add Vanilla to the list..
Eldar have wave serpents, which are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Melta spam, frag cannons, etc. All of those work. Daemons have FMC spam, but they either fly around and shoot or land and die. Again, difficult, but not impossible. Tau have riptides, i guess? Which arent scary at all once you close a bit. And half the assault units in our book ace thunderwolf cav from space wolves. Vanilla marines have centurions, which unless theyre in an invisible death star die like everything else.
Maybe instead of being all doom and gloom about a good book, learn to play it. Or just learn to play.
L2P noobs!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
evildrcheese wrote: I think BA is a harder Codex to play well than the ones you've mentioned but I don't think it's necessarily 'weaker'.
We certainly seem to lack any obvious auto-takes, which have that combination of durability, being very killy and reasonably pointed (think TWC, Wraiths), we also lack the proper beatstick CC monster (Let's be honest as good as Dante is SmashFether is the measuring stick here).
We also lack the ability to bring the volume of fire, especially high S with extra buffs such as rerolls, cover stripping etc.
So it can be quite difficult to understand the niche that BA fill, but I feel that because we have access to so much rapid deployment and precision deployment as well as a decent CC punch and interesting formation/detachments, a BA army with a good general can really surprise an opponent.
Are we a top tier codex? Probably not, but we're by no means the worst codex.
D
Then what is the worst codex? Because I can't point to a single codex and say, "Yup, BA are better than X".
Blood Angels have some elements that are unique and arguably better than other codices.
#1: Librarian Dreadnaught in Drop Pod - In terms of being able to put boot to ass on the level of CM SmashFace, he's quite competent. Admittedly, he's going to have trouble gibbing him in particular, but consider that with the Primaris Power, you get I/A = 5-7 on a charge. He's got auto ID vs T5 or less, or Force Weapon to ID anything with T6+. Notably, he strikes at or before most MC [that need to take a single Smash attack to hope for reasonable damage, except Fexes and Wraith Knights] and in terms of winning a Challenge? Hells yes.
#2: Fragioso Dreadnaught in Drop Pod - Vs any gunline army, the intense wound output on the drop, with high AV to make countering more difficult, leading into a second round of Fire and Frags before charging. Ties up / wipes out infantry based shooting threats. The 2nd turn charge, assuming a pair, allows other Turn 3 Chargers [Jump packs, down the thread] more chance to arrive unscathed.
#2.5: Better than average Dread-Pods allow us to build an Anvil **in the opponent's deployment zone** to swing the rest of our army as a Hammer into.
#3: Cheap Jump Packs on many assault style infantry - Dramatically increases the odds of getting many guys into combat. DC are great value, and so are Sanguinary Guard. For 8 pts more than Honour Guard [a top teir assault squad] you get jump packs to help deliver them. Additionally, a cheap Sang Priest to hop along with them gives them some defence against Plasma.
#4: Fast "Shooty" Tanks to block LOS to cheap Jumpers - Fast Vindicators are good times, but even better with some cheap assault squads jumping along behind them. Someone comes to you? Counter assault. If they hide back, you've got an AV 13 wall in front that's bombing away, keeping pace with you. Fast Razors with a 5 man tactical Double-Special [dude + sarge] weapon to support those assaulters right before touchdown, and to then hold the objectives while they hop off. I see Plasma as eventually taking the cake over Heavy Flamer for this use.
#5: Accurate, Cheap, Deep Strike Melta - Not many armies can come even close to our Assault Squads with Melta. In a Pod, you're apt to be able to drop in a "near certain" spot, after terrain and models get in the way. On top of that, you've got a 6" "correction" when you deploy, to move back into Melta range. They'll be a near must-take.
#6: Flexible Formation - Why decide between CAD and BSF? Build a CAD list with at least 1 Elite in it. Playing against an I 4 / 5 heavy army, use it as BSF. Playing against an I 3 or less? Use CAD. Best of both worlds, with same models.
#7: Truly dedicated anti-infantry drop pods - Tacticals with bolters and multi-flame weapons... compete with Fragnaughts, but not everyone loves Dreads like I do.
I think its safe to say that BA are very competitive with all 7th Edition codices. Tau, Eldar and Demons are the big 6th edition outliers and trying to compare BA to them is comparing apples to oranges. BA stack up very well against everything published since the release of 7th (AM, Orcs, GK, SW, DE).
th3maninblak wrote: Armies that are worse than BA: dark angels, chaos, sisters, astra militarium, dark eldar, possibly orks and grey knights.
Most of those, sure. Wouldn't say about AM tough. The GK are pretty much equal to BA.
And sanguinary guard/death company will wipe an equivalently costed thunderwolf cav unit on the charge.
On the charge, yes. On the charge the TWC cavalry will be better.
Not to mention that the TWC are more durable to shooting than DC for example.
Also Dante hits harder than smashy, is almost as durable, and has better special rules. Oh, also he's cheaper.
He hits slightly more and faster, not harder.
And he's nowhere near as durable, with only T4, 4++ and no FnP unless you include a Priest to his squad, which makes him more expensive to be useful.
He also lacks Orbital Bombardment.
I think BA are substantially inferior to SW, IG, and GK. I'd put them down with DA, Chaos, Orks, and Sisters. The exact order, I'm not sure. I still feel that when I line up against SW, they have me beat at every facet of the game. They're pretty silly.
th3maninblak wrote: So everyone seems super afraid of the new necron wraiths. Honestly i think we're pretty well set against them. We strike simultaneously on the charge and wound them on 4s. From there we are basically fighting 2 wound marines.
Yes, Wraiths are the one thing we will probably be stronger against than many other armies.
The issue might be the Spyder that gives them RP4+, we should probably lure/chase that away from them and then we can kill the Wraiths.
I am personally more afraid of the Flayed Ones.
They can come in groups of 20 and can not only survive but even win when charged by an equal amount of points in Death Company.
TWC are more durable than death co or sanguinary guard, but more costly and less efficient. They have the better flier, but thats basically it. We do drop pods better than them, and have better mech. Other than that the two armies are roughly equal.
I also dont know why everyone is so afraid of tau...
TWC are more durable than death co or sanguinary guard, but more costly and less efficient. They have the better flier, but thats basically it. We do drop pods better than them, and have better mech. Other than that the two armies are roughly equal.
I also dont know why everyone is so afraid of tau...
Wolves still have the emperor's own Chaos Marines, or Grey Hunters. GH still have better options and chapter tactic than our troops by far.
TWC are more durable than death co or sanguinary guard, but more costly and less efficient. They have the better flier, but thats basically it. We do drop pods better than them, and have better mech. Other than that the two armies are roughly equal.
I also dont know why everyone is so afraid of tau...
TWC don't need the charge for S5 (S10 hammers/fists which BA can't even get). They don't need to pay for power weapons to go through armor. They don't take dangerous terrain to move 12'' beginning or ending in terrain. They have +1T/W over SG and DC. Taken under the Champions supplement (why wouldn't you?) they don't need a priest for WS5. Icing on the cake, they come stock with Counter-Attack. I'd value them higher than SG and DC any day of the week, justifiably so. Even costing more, I see them as the better unit point-for-point without hesitation.
Helfrost weaponry wipes the board with BA without the Gets Hot risk of plasma (hope you stocked up on priests - oh, failed a strength test? dead anyway). Murderfang is what a Blood Talons now wish they were. Double melta pods can come from troops rather than taking FA slots.
Point conceded on wolves having better troops. I still think the armies are roughly equal.
Murderfang has a ton of attacks, but only at str7, as opposed to 10. Sure, they have the storm shield dread, but we have the fragnought, which is still one of the best anti infantry platforms in the game. Melta drop pods without using fast attack slots? What else are we doing with those slots anyways?
We also have cheaper sternguard, which are largely considered one of the best units in the game, furthering us as the better drop pod army. We are also the better MSU army, as having fast asscan or lasplas razors and preds is something that wolves only dream of doing. Oh, and our special characters are MILES ahead of anything they have.
I will admit that they do death stars significantly better than us, as while death co and SG match wolves pound for pound in terms of offense, we fall short on durability. 6 TWC with 2 attached characters is a difficult unit to bring down. Their troops and fliers surpass ours as well.
So in closing
Wolves: death stars, fliers, better troop choices, better generic HQs
Blood Angels: better drop pods, MSU, mech, special characters.
th3maninblak wrote: Point conceded on wolves having better troops. I still think the armies are roughly equal.
Murderfang has a ton of attacks, but only at str7, as opposed to 10. Sure, they have the storm shield dread, but we have the fragnought, which is still one of the best anti infantry platforms in the game. Melta drop pods without using fast attack slots? What else are we doing with those slots anyways?
We also have cheaper sternguard, which are largely considered one of the best units in the game, furthering us as the better drop pod army. We are also the better MSU army, as having fast asscan or lasplas razors and preds is something that wolves only dream of doing. Oh, and our special characters are MILES ahead of anything they have.
I will admit that they do death stars significantly better than us, as while death co and SG match wolves pound for pound in terms of offense, we fall short on durability. 6 TWC with 2 attached characters is a difficult unit to bring down. Their troops and fliers surpass ours as well.
So in closing
Wolves: death stars, fliers, better troop choices, better generic HQs
Blood Angels: better drop pods, MSU, mech, special characters.
You're comparing units on faulty footing. S7 is worse than 10 against vehicles and T6+ units - neither of which are things Murderfang or Talon dreads charge. Granted a Talon dread COULD wound an MC easier, but Wolves don't need to do the punch-dance with a big googly with dreads when S10 TWC and Strength test Helfrost exist. Axe/Shield dreads on the other hand SHOULD charge MCs, which is what fragnoughts DON'T fight. What were you using FA slots for? Gravbikes come to mind, since BA have those (and they're excellent for their points) as well as free pods to shore up an assault or bring in some Battle Brothers which lack their own (IG, Inquisition, Scions, Terminators). Might not be the biggest of deals, yet it remains a relevant point. As well, it means that SW make a comparable pod list. Because a single SW detachment can bring 6x double special pods while BA are restricted to 6x double flamers and 3x double melta. Wolves can match the 3x double melta FA pods (granted at BS3), but unless you're facing swarm overload the flexibility favors Wolves (who simultaneously receive a charge better on their pod troops than BA).
Now you are correct that BA can do MSU better, as well as having better named characters (what I assume you mean by special). The second can be offset by the fact that a generic Thunderwolf Lord can go toe-to-toe with any BA character (short of Mephiston). Sternguard are undeniably useful, and a point in the favor of BA.
My summary follows: BA fall in between Wolves and Marines as far as offensive assault power (worse than the latter, better than the former). Pod superiority goes SM > SW > BA (Salamander or Ultramarine pods are still disgustingly effective with their respective tactics, Wolf reasons discussed above). MSU superiority goes to BA > SM > Wolves (I value fast vehicles above special/heavy options of a Crusader Squad or the repair ability of Iron Hands). Deathstar rankings SM (= or > ) SW > BA (I can't make a call on Gravstar vs TWC, but instinct tells me Grav wins out). This puts BA as a midrange book in my mind.
Literally the only thing i disagree with you on in that post is the ranking of pod lists. I would go SM-BA-SW. Other than that, well said, sir.
I will also say that MSU also applies to jumper strategies as well. Im ranked 2nd in our league at the moment with it, and i just finished a better version of the list that may be the strongest army ive ever built.
The thing that is upsetting to me is that after several codices that balanced well together, GW went ahead and released Necrons, and boosted them from their already higher tier state.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing that is upsetting to me is that after several codices that balanced well together, GW went ahead and released Necrons, and boosted them from their already higher tier state.
I think crons may be the best 7th ed dex so far, but i doubt that theyre overpowered. Wraiths and destroyers seem very powerful, and some of their HQ options are a bit on the OP side, but the problematic things like tesla, the barges, and the fliers have been appropriately nerfed.
Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WCCSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WCCSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.
Except helldrakes arent the terror they once were, since they now have firing arcs. Not sure why we need psychic death stars, or invisibility, as our own psychic powers are good enough if we want to go that route. Lost of armies get by with no ignores cover shenanigans, and that being said the frag cannon is awesome as always for that. The fact that you think orks are bad shows me you've been out of the loop for a while.
Tell me, what kind of list are you playing? Or have you actually not played the new codex yet?
Martel732 wrote: I'm still not sold on BA as a drop list at all.
No, neither am I. Reminds me of all those DoA (Dead on Arrival) lists I used to see when the 5th ed codex was released.
I've spent £0 on my Blood Angels since the release, and after seeing the Necron codex it's going to continue to be £0 unless a formation or detachment changes that
The Deer Hunter wrote: Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WCCSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.
Except helldrakes arent the terror they once were, since they now have firing arcs. Not sure why we need psychic death stars, or invisibility, as our own psychic powers are good enough if we want to go that route. Lost of armies get by with no ignores cover shenanigans, and that being said the frag cannon is awesome as always for that. The fact that you think orks are bad shows me you've been out of the loop for a while.
Tell me, what kind of list are you playing? Or have you actually not played the new codex yet?
heldrake is no longer the OP unit it was, but imo is still effective against an army like BA. BTW, I were not saying that CSM is a codex definetively more powerful than BA, but that is not weaker.
About Orks, I added a maybe before them, since I think that it's a very good codex even though I haven't had yet the opportunity to play against.
I played the new codex, but the feeling is that none of the units could stand outside of fluffy game, and thats why I'm searching a way to close the gap
The Deer Hunter wrote: Just to come back to BA.
Someone put Gk and Ba on the same level, but I think that an army that can get quite easily 15+ warp charges, has an advantage BA cannot match.
Chaos marines or DA, have both a codex very similar to BA, but they have Telepathy (and more WCCSM). Invisibility or Shroud could make the difference, while BA have no means to get Ignore cover(aside from template weapons or a lucky dice on Divination).
Heldrake could do a mess of a DC, our best unit.
SoB, Darkeldar, and maybe Orks are our equal.
Except helldrakes arent the terror they once were, since they now have firing arcs. Not sure why we need psychic death stars, or invisibility, as our own psychic powers are good enough if we want to go that route. Lost of armies get by with no ignores cover shenanigans, and that being said the frag cannon is awesome as always for that. The fact that you think orks are bad shows me you've been out of the loop for a while.
Tell me, what kind of list are you playing? Or have you actually not played the new codex yet?
heldrake is no longer the OP unit it was, but imo is still effective against an army like BA. BTW, I were not saying that CSM is a codex definetively more powerful than BA, but that is not weaker.
About Orks, I added a maybe before them, since I think that it's a very good codex even though I haven't had yet the opportunity to play against.
I played the new codex, but the feeling is that none of the units could stand outside of fluffy game, and thats why I'm searching a way to close the gap
None of the units? Have you tried Jump Pack Death Company? They're very efficent overall.
And in the end, Blood Angels are still Space Marines. And Tactcial Squads or Sternguard for example are hardly a fluffy-games-only option.
Martel732 wrote: I'm still not sold on BA as a drop list at all.
No, neither am I. Reminds me of all those DoA (Dead on Arrival) lists I used to see when the 5th ed codex was released.
I've spent £0 on my Blood Angels since the release, and after seeing the Necron codex it's going to continue to be £0 unless a formation or detachment changes that
I bought the new tactical kits to use as Sternguards.
The Sanguinary Guard can take the hits well, but most of our army is still 3+ armor and now that our Troops aren't as mobile, they will be easy targets.
The Drake has been a problem for me, not sure how you've manage to ignore the perfect unit to kill Marines.
competitively, BA armies should look towards bikes. you get T5, (FnP vs str8) 4+jink, relentless, HoW, and some decent shooting for a good price. MSU assault oriented I feel is the best way to go. When you have 2-3 7 man bike units with grav weaponry, 2 7 man DC units, a sang guard unit, and drop poding melta marines and or heavy flamer tacs/fragioso's/lib dreads (gotta take the pick, not gonna fit all of that into one list unfortunately, I dislike dreadnoughts, so I go for infantry based) that is a lot of threats to take out, not only that, but you can move 12" then charge with most. so far its worked the best for me. Dante is a good buy strong, fast, and durable with his sang guard body guard.
Honestly I feel like we have a really good dex, want AV 13 spam? we can do it, fast too, and still bring pyschic powers with it.
want the power drop pod? sure thing bud, tacs for anti-horde, stern for those "that must die" units, ASM for low point tank hunters.
The Blood Angels codex seems to be able to play in very varied ways and altough there's the obvious rules encouragement towards CC, there's not a single playstyle that steps forward.
Hard to say wether this is good versatility or lack of dedication.
But nontheless, the codex offers different ways of playing and that's pretty great.
soomemafia wrote: The Blood Angels codex seems to be able to play in very varied ways and altough there's the obvious rules encouragement towards CC, there's not a single playstyle that steps forward.
Hard to say wether this is good versatility or lack of dedication.
But nontheless, the codex offers different ways of playing and that's pretty great.
I'd agree with that. I just wish there was at least one power choice.
There is. It's called all JPDC with stormravens and Drop pod Furiosos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps: I've had my thunderwolf Death Star charged by DC and they where wiped out. All they need is a few power fists and it's over.
I think a point should be made, that every army is stronger and weaker than another, if you look at only one aspect of it. I feel like there are strong builds in the codex. I face White Scars with a Knight Ally on a regular basis. I feel they can be handled, and they're one of the best armies I've ever faced in any edition of the game. Complete with Smash-Face and Khan.
BA are a... more subtle... codex than the others. MSU seems to be our strength. All parts must come together, instead of spam. They're right up my alley these days, and I think I'm going to very much enjoy playing them in a competitive environment.
Rather than focussing on the weakness relative to others, see their strengths. They are there, and they are powerful. Look to what we have that is unique, and build lists from those strengths to counter your opponents.
For example, Fast Vindicators are the best answer to TWC, and taking one or two in most lists is a no-brainer for me. Comparing TWC to JPDC in an arena isn't really what I'd do, because I wouldn't pit them against each other.
Kavish wrote: There is. It's called all JPDC with stormravens and Drop pod Furiosos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ps: I've had my thunderwolf Death Star charged by DC and they where wiped out. All they need is a few power fists and it's over.
Don't let them charge; it's in beating BA 101.
If BA can't charge, they generally can't win. That makes shutting down the BA conceptually quite simple compared to AV 12 skimmer spam or Riptides.
Compared facing BA to SW. Even if you charge SW, you will probably lose. If you charge BA, you completely neuter them. If it's BA tactical squads, practically any troop will do.
Well, given that BA would hit harder than SW, on a turn they charge, I don't see that as being the case. They get equal attacks, hypothetically, but BA's wound on 3's instead of 4's.
Given that taking the BSF instead of a CAD would make sense against SW, the extra Initiative would allow BA's to strike first in most combats, further reducing the number of "extra" countercharge attacks that SW would receive, yes? Again, focussing on the strength rather than weakness. Charging with tacticals isn't typically the ideal situation, they're fire support, unless they're assault support for another unit.
Isn't this supposed to be tactics that BA would be successful with, not BA sucks vs such and such a Codex thread?
You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.
Lulz, ok, Space Wolves are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and BA's might as well melt their minis down now, because charges will never occur... and they can't bring guns of their own to shoot with.
Blood Angels only get chainswords. No Fast Razorbacks. No Fast Vindis. No Podded Dreads. No Podded Assault Squads. They MUST charge headlong into the storm of bullets being thrown their way. No other option. No other tactic. Definately no way to disable enemy shooting through clever play and relatively better mobility.
greatbigtree wrote: Lulz, ok, Space Wolves are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and BA's might as well melt their minis down now, because charges will never occur... and they can't bring guns of their own to shoot with.
Blood Angels only get chainswords. No Fast Razorbacks. No Fast Vindis. No Podded Dreads. No Podded Assault Squads. They MUST charge headlong into the storm of bullets being thrown their way. No other option. No other tactic. Definately no way to disable enemy shooting through clever play and relatively better mobility.
Just screwed. Long live Space Wolves!
If I were able to list tailor for SW, I would say the fast vindicator would be a go-to solution. However, I don't have that luxury. Podded assault squads only play into their hands. The dreadnoughts and and razorbacks are a thing, but the razors wont' last long against long fangs. It's very hard for BA to game against Riptides, WS, and TWC.
Martel732 wrote: You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.
Well if you accompany your assault units with the Angel Fury Spearhead then you can make sure that you get the charge no problem. Sure there is a risk that the Stormravens won't come in and there a chance you could lose due to bad reserve rolls but it still a really powerful option in my opinion for a 2000 point list. I took a list the other day along with DC and a DC dreadnought in drop pods and a further empty drop pod and I beat a guard player. He even bubble wrapped his tanks and I still won comfortably.
My MSU jumper list has been tearing people apart recently. I think that may definitely be a strong way to play. When you have 2 death company squads and a sanguinary guard squad hopping around the table, along with 2x5 close combat scouts threatening people with melta bombs and baal preds torrenting things then your opponents shooting options become more awkward.
Oh, and the fragnought in your opponents back field makes things funny as well.
Even against shooting armies its not difficult to make them shoot the wrong thing just once and make it into combat.
Im glad we got some positive attitudes in this thread!
Like I said earlier in the thread a friend of mine came 13th place at the Caledonian,which is the biggest tournament in the UK, using this list.
Flesh Tearers Strike Force? (6 fast attack slots)
Dante
Priest, jump pack, veritas vitae
9 sanguinary guard, 2 fists, chapter banner.
10 tactical marines, melta heavy flamer drop pod x 2
5 Assualt marines melta, melta, combi melta, pod. X 5
Allies iron hands
Chapter master, power fist, shield eternal, bike.
5 x scouts
Brutal list, his only loss all weekend was against Eldar in the Relic, which he lost because of a poor run roll that stopped him from being able to surround the Relic well enough to be incontestable.
PanzerLeader wrote: Martel732 is to Pessimism as Bob Ross is to Happy Little Bushes. Once you accept that, his posts become easier to understand.
Bit he's also right. BA assault units are heavily reliant on getting the charge, and are significantly powered down in the subsquent assault phases or if they don't get the charge in the first place.
Thunderwolf Cav and Wraiths tend to have more 'always on' stuff as opposed to DC/SG
Martel732 wrote: You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.
Well if you accompany your assault units with the Angel Fury Spearhead then you can make sure that you get the charge no problem. Sure there is a risk that the Stormravens won't come in and there a chance you could lose due to bad reserve rolls but it still a really powerful option in my opinion for a 2000 point list. I took a list the other day along with DC and a DC dreadnought in drop pods and a further empty drop pod and I beat a guard player. He even bubble wrapped his tanks and I still won comfortably.
It just seems unreliable and not very good against versatile opponents.
PanzerLeader wrote: Martel732 is to Pessimism as Bob Ross is to Happy Little Bushes. Once you accept that, his posts become easier to understand.
Bit he's also right. BA assault units are heavily reliant on getting the charge, and are significantly powered down in the subsquent assault phases or if they don't get the charge in the first place.
Thunderwolf Cav and Wraiths tend to have more 'always on' stuff as opposed to DC/SG
I get that. But BA also have great mobility and can use that to set up charges, especially when playing MSU. Its about forcing choices on an opponent and the speed in the BA dex makes it much easier to bait the opponent into the wrong decision than the SW or Necron codex does.
The MSU approach helps, but counting on enemy mistakes is a problem sometimes. There's no way to bait Eldar or Tau. They are melting your face off until you stop them.
The decision tree for movement against BA is actually pretty simple, though. Especially since many of these proposed lists are going to be massively outgunned.
Eldercaveman wrote: Like I said earlier in the thread a friend of mine came 13th place at the Caledonian,which is the biggest tournament in the UK, using this list.
Flesh Tearers Strike Force? (6 fast attack slots)
Dante
Priest, jump pack, veritas vitae
9 sanguinary guard, 2 fists, chapter banner.
10 tactical marines, melta heavy flamer drop pod x 2
5 Assualt marines melta, melta, combi melta, pod. X 5
Allies iron hands
Chapter master, power fist, shield eternal, bike.
5 x scouts
Brutal list, his only loss all weekend was against Eldar in the Relic, which he lost because of a poor run roll that stopped him from being able to surround the Relic well enough to be incontestable.
That sounds like a pretty cool list actually. 7 pods is no joke in objectives games, using the first wave as an alpha stoke and secondary waves to contest objectives/support where needed. Jump packs and a bike are both highly mobile and scouts to, I assume, sit on the home objective.
I think BA are up there in terms of pod lists, it's difficult to gauge how we compare to other pod lists, especially since there's such a spectrum in C:SM, really the difference is that BA need support from jump units to make a pod list work, same with the mechanised builds to, we really a re a hybrid sort of dex which requires a large amount of joined up thinking in terms of deployment and wtarget lrioritisation.
So, ive been toying around with a list that basically puts all the cheese i can think of together into one BA army. I have about $150 to spend on it before i would have it build, so i wanted to bounce it off of you all before i pulled the trigger.
LoW -dante
HQ -priest
Power sword
Bolt pistol
Angels wing
Elites
-10x death co
Jump packs
2 swords
1 fist
-10x death co
Jump packs
2 swords
1 fist
-5x sanguinary guard
Infernus pistol
Power fist
Chapter banner
-furioso dread
Frag cannon
Heavy flamer
Pod
Troops
-5x scouts
Shanks
Melta bomb
-5x scouts
Shanks
Melta bomb
Fast attack
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi
Pod
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi
Pod
Heavy support
-storm raven
Lascannon
Multi melta
Hurricane bolters
Martel732 wrote: You are still assuming that you get the charge off. The SW, through superior firepower, can make you come to them, allowing the TWC to charge the BA, neutering all the bonuses. There's a reason I haven't lost to another BA list since early 5th ed. I don't let them get charges off.
Well if you accompany your assault units with the Angel Fury Spearhead then you can make sure that you get the charge no problem. Sure there is a risk that the Stormravens won't come in and there a chance you could lose due to bad reserve rolls but it still a really powerful option in my opinion for a 2000 point list. I took a list the other day along with DC and a DC dreadnought in drop pods and a further empty drop pod and I beat a guard player. He even bubble wrapped his tanks and I still won comfortably.
It just seems unreliable and not very good against versatile opponents.
I agree the Stormravens need to be differently equipped with different weapons but it is possible. You can make a Stormraven to combat tanks or make one to combat infantry etc.
Martel732 wrote: I was talking about the tac squads. The triple Stormraven is fine. But there are plenty of opponents where assaulting with tac squads just fails.
Well I have the DC and DC Dreadnought for the assault part. The Tacticals I will use for shooting. I have one tact squad kitted up with 3 flamer weapons. I think I'll make one up with 3 meltas as well for anti-tank. In my game against Guard I still had 22 tactical squads guys left along with the 3 ravens and one drop pod. I didn't actually need to assault with the tacs much, they fine enough as they are with shooting. The DC, Dreadnought and ravens were enough to take out the tanks and the ravens also took out a lot of infantry too.
th3maninblak wrote: Hmm... i hadnt thought of a 2nd raven. Dropping the 2 asm squads would free up exactly enough points for a 2nd raven.
What do you think about typhoon vs MM?
For 25 points i dont think its worth it, unless your meta is filled to the brim with wave serpents. In that case 2 shots at str8 gives them more of a chance to fail those jinks, and with serpent shields up theyll rarely suffer penetrating hits from multi meltas anyways. Same goes for dark eldar, i suppose.
But the multi melta+lascannon loadout (always with hurricanes) hasnt failed me yet, honestly. Im concerned with a fairly low model count, though. Even with my reserves coming in reliably on turn 2.
The mentioning of bikes a page or 2 ago has me wanting to experiment with some.... I have about 30 bikes sitting there unpainted from when I was going to make a white scars chapter of some sort...maybe Ill kit out a squad with grav and paint them BA.....
th3maninblak wrote: Hmm... i hadnt thought of a 2nd raven. Dropping the 2 asm squads would free up exactly enough points for a 2nd raven.
What do you think about typhoon vs MM?
For 25 points i dont think its worth it, unless your meta is filled to the brim with wave serpents. In that case 2 shots at str8 gives them more of a chance to fail those jinks, and with serpent shields up theyll rarely suffer penetrating hits from multi meltas anyways. Same goes for dark eldar, i suppose.
But the multi melta+lascannon loadout (always with hurricanes) hasnt failed me yet, honestly. Im concerned with a fairly low model count, though. Even with my reserves coming in reliably on turn 2.
I equip mine with Hurricanes too. I find it relatively easy to get within 12" of a squad for those double tapping shots. Also if you're firing at a tank then you can always fire two of the missiles along with the Lascannon & Multi-Melta instead. As I'm running 3 of them, my thoughts are that I equip one of them with a Plasma Cannon and Heavy Bolter instead in order to take care of infantry.
Yeah hurricanes are a must. Averaging 5-6 wounds on MEQs is pretty solid. And 4 str8+ shots will do a number on just about anything.
Also as for sanguinary guard, theyve become a main stay in my lists no matter what point value or number. I find that 5 dudes with a priest is just fine. A fist or two, an inferno pistol and a chapter banner clocks in at just over 200 points, and with a decently equipped priest will almost always make their points back and then some.
There is another advantage of the typhoon: it's very easy to position the Stormraven the turn it comes in, because you can fire 6 shots with a range of 48". You aren't even tempted to get withing 12".
I still prefer the MM TLAsC variation. It is statistically more likely to strip hull points off everything except AV13 (which is equal to the TLLC). No explodes is the tradeoff though. Most flyers don't have many hull points and more wounds is better anyway. I magnetized my sponsons so I can add them if I have the points. The TML is cool, but it ain't cheap. It does sync well with the TLLC though.
th3maninblak wrote: Yeah hurricanes are a must. Averaging 5-6 wounds on MEQs is pretty solid. And 4 str8+ shots will do a number on just about anything.
Also as for sanguinary guard, theyve become a main stay in my lists no matter what point value or number. I find that 5 dudes with a priest is just fine. A fist or two, an inferno pistol and a chapter banner clocks in at just over 200 points, and with a decently equipped priest will almost always make their points back and then some.
I'm using DC in drop pods along with mine because I get the assault when I come in. I've only played the one game with it so far but I was pleasantly pleased with how it worked. Of course the risk is you could fail your re-rollable reserve roll for the formation but I'll stick with it for just now. I might see about getting a comms relay which I believe is the upgrade with the aegis defence line that gives you +1 to your reserve rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: There is another advantage of the typhoon: it's very easy to position the Stormraven the turn it comes in, because you can fire 6 shots with a range of 48". You aren't even tempted to get withing 12".
Indeed however the Multi_melta does get the extra dice for armour penetration which is really useful against AV14 vehicles. It's swings and roundabouts really but I do encourage using different loadouts on the ravens. I think it's a good thing to have variety in order to cover you bases.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casvalremdeikun wrote: I still prefer the MM TLAsC variation. It is statistically more likely to strip hull points off everything except AV13 (which is equal to the TLLC). No explodes is the tradeoff though. Most flyers don't have many hull points and more wounds is better anyway. I magnetized my sponsons so I can add them if I have the points. The TML is cool, but it ain't cheap. It does sync well with the TLLC though.
Can I ask how AV12 works out with the math? Does the Typhoon do better in that instance. The reason I ask is because doing more glancing and penetrating hits against a Wave Serpent would be a good thing if your meta just so happens to have a lot of Eldar in it.
I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
th3maninblak wrote: Not sure on the math, but a 6 with an assault cannon to pen against av12 is an auto pen. I think that av13+ is lascannon territory though.
Certainly a Lascannon is great for AV13+ as well as the Multi-Melta but we all know how many Wave Serpents there are out there getting on everybody's nerves.
I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
Certainly, as long as your list has something to deal with AV14 then you're OK.
The beauty about the 3 Stormraven list is that the assault units you take with it can be the ones to take care of AV14 since they get to charge as soon as they come in without scattering. A couple of Powerfists on the Death Company and there you have 8 S9 attacks going for whatever target you choose. Even AV14 is going to take quite a beating off that.
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.
"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."
Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.
"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."
Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.
There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.
I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.
"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."
Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.
There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.
I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.
That is the one I have been looking at, I just have to grab about 20 new Vanguard Vets to build it the way I want.
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.
"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."
Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.
There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.
I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.
"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."
Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.
There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.
I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.
Typhoon + 4 onboard missles = 6 shots.
I know but I will only be able to fire 5 weapons first turn I come in. My Stormravens will be moving up the board full distance. This means I can only fire 4 weapons + 1 for power of the machine spirit.
Anpu42 wrote: I find the basic Typhoon with Heavy Bolters to be a great Mid-Long Gange Multi-Tasker.
Of course the question come up all the Time "What About AV12/13/14?" That is wat Plasma and Melta-Armed Sternguard are for.
I'm finding that naked Sternguard are the most point efficient.
"I actually thought you were talking about the Typhoon and the 4 Sky Hammer missiles. Although I understand that a flyer can only fire 4 weapons a turn, 5 if you have machine spirit."
Turn one, fire typhoon and all missiles from long range after moving onto board a minimal distance. Turn two, determine best target for AC/Typhoon/sponson combo.
There is always the formation that gives your Sternguard and Vanguard free Combi's and Power Weapons. I actually still think the Vanguard are useful. You can equip them with Storm Shields and they can be made a 10 man unit. Although if you're playing MSU then perhaps multiple Command Squads with storm shields may be a better option.
I might equip one of my Stormravens as you've suggested and give it a whirl. I'll only be shooting the 5 missiles each when I come in but 15 S8 missile shots sounds quite scary actually.
That is the one I have been looking at, I just have to grab about 20 new Vanguard Vets to build it the way I want.
As a suggestion Grey Knights are good for all the power weapons you're going to need. Luckily enough I already have Grey Knights and I have some weapons left that I can use. A suggestion giving to me was to use halbards as lances so when they charge they will have S6 Ap3. That was a suggestion to use along side my Stormraven formation although I don't think I am going to run them together since I need to wait for the vets from turn 2 onwards while on the other hand I can get pods in on the first turn.
As for any Storm Sheilds the Blood Angel Terminator kit is actually fairly suitable. The hand bits for the shield actually come separately so they are not there to begin with. As for the Terminators you can make them lightning claw termies instead or perhaps make some characters out of them.
For Combi-Weapons Forge World actually do some good sets where you get 5 of each type (flamer, melta & plasma). So there a good start if you're not looking for combi-gravs.
Yeah the FW combo kit is great. I'm currently building 15 Sternguard, all magnetised, so I can run them with either a choice of combo weapon or just a special ammo bolter. Plus I have 5 of the monopose Stern guard, of which I magnetised the combi guy, and two others.
"I know but I will only be able to fire 5 weapons first turn I come in. My Stormravens will be moving up the board full distance. This means I can only fire 4 weapons + 1 for power of the machine spirit.
Well, tied white scars today in the league im in. Pretty typical tournament grav spam with dual thunderfire cannons. And I was even using what I would consider a sub optimal list =p
Troops
-10x tac marines
Melta gun
combi melta
Heavy flamer
Drop pod
-5x scouts
Combat blades
Fast attack
-5x assault marines
2x melta
Combi melta
-5x assault marines
2x melta
combi melta
-5x assault marines
2x flamer
Heavy support
-stormraven gunship
Lascannon
Multi melta
Hurricane bolters
This list was designed to dismantle mechanized forces and to rip knights in half in a single turn. There are 11 accurately deep striking melta weapons in this list, with 9 of them being on platforms that reliably come in on turn 2 and only scatter d6. That being said, white scars dont really care about all your meltas, so i knew i would be fighting uphill. Heres his approximate list.
White scars with Red Hunters allies.
HQ -khan
Moondrakken
-chapter master
Artificer armor
Bike
Shield eternal
power fist
-Command squad
Bikes
Apothecary
4x melta guns
Elites
-5x legion of the damned
melta
combi melta
multi melta
Troops
-5x bikes
2x grav
Combi grav
-5x bikes
2x grav
Combi grav
-5x scouts
Bolters
Heavy support
-2x thunderfire cannon
Red hunters allied detachment
HQ -chapter master
Bike
Storm shield
Artificer armor
Power fist
Auspex
Quick question. Which is more beneficial on a lvl 2 Librarian? The Force Sword or Valour's Edge? Most commonly cast power would be Quickening and he is with atleast four other sources of AP3 and two Unweildy AP2 users. Idea is for him and his squad to take on MEQ or TEQ if it appears or take on Challenges. The Instant Death is useful against big opponents but with a FNP buff, the Quickening buff, the WS buff and the rest of the unit is it worth putting the Edge on the more fragile Priest instead and miss out on AP2 in Challenges?
I'm not sure putting the ap2 sword on a model with no access to an invulnerable save is worth it. I can see you're going for a Libby with the Sang Guard, but I think my preferred load out for a librarian is termie armour, SS and the funky staff. +2 S makes it easier to wound, quickening gives you a weight of attacks advantage and force will ID anything without ET, plus the reroll 1 in psychic tests from the staff.
Obviously this means taking a termie squad and possibly a transport over the Sang guard, so overall it's probably less effective for the list.
It's a real kicker having Priests as HQ choices as the perfect loadout would be SS and Valours edge on a captain, Libby to buff with quickening and Priest for FnP.
I've been looking at the Defenders of the Cathedrium formation in the Exterminartus book, and thinking about using it.
Basically it gives everything in the formation Counter Attack and Stubborn, and you have to take an assault squad, furioso, 2 tac squads, a death company squad and a terminator squad.
I reckon this is a pretty good baseline for an army and can come in around 1000 points, add to this a Baal Strike force with 2 scout squads and fill the rest with Dante, Captain ap2 sponge, priest and a big squad of Sang guard.
This give you a some decent home objective holders or the option to outflank later in the game, tac marines with the problem of getting assaulted for dsing in your opponents deployment zone mitigated (I'm thinking kitting them out with H Flamer, Flamer and Hand Flamer, this combined with the counter attack rule might deter people charging them in the first place, which means you get to charge for the S5 goodness)
The tac terminators aren't the best choice, but on a personal note I've interested in getting some use out of then as I've painting up a squad.
So im finding some common threads with the tournament BA lists, with one style of list in particular making some pretty serious waves. Here is the general idea.
Baal Strike Force or Flesh Tearers detachment
Dante
Priest with various wargear (usually angel's wing, sometimes valour's edge or veritas vitae)
8-10 sanguinary guard with 2 power fists and chapter banner
7-9 various drop pod units, usually with 3+ tri melta assault marine squads, the rest filled with a mix of sternguard, melta/flamer tac squads, or furioso dreadnoughts.
Allied Iron Hands detachment
Shield eternal chapter master on bike
Scout squad to fill minimum troop requirement.
Basically the list is just looking to put as many melta guns as possible in drop pods to crack problem targets like knights, wave serpents, land raiders, baneblades, etc, while using the sanguinary guard deathstar (from here on out known as BloodStar) to mop everything up.
Just theorycrafting a bit i can see that the strong matchups would include knights/adamantium lance, wave serpent spam, most tau list, any mechanized marine list, and thunderwolf deathstars. White scars would be a fairly neutral matchup, as would green tide. Flying circus, airforce lists, and centurionstar would almost undoubtedly be bad matchups.
It's an interesting idea. Nice to have 2 EW dudes in the unit assuming Smash Fether foes in the Bloodstar (I'm not sure this term will stick, but I'll go with it), although then he receives no benefit from his T5, but does gain 5+ FnP...hmmm.
I might try and write a list around this. Seems odd that our second HQ slot wouldn't be filled however.
evildrcheese wrote: It's an interesting idea. Nice to have 2 EW dudes in the unit assuming Smash Fether foes in the Bloodstar (I'm not sure this term will stick, but I'll go with it), although then he receives no benefit from his T5, but does gain 5+ FnP...hmmm.
I might try and write a list around this. Seems odd that our second HQ slot wouldn't be filled however.
D
Have a look at the list I posted a page or so back.
Hi all. I've been using a podded full 10 man tactical squad with a heavy flamer, flamer and a hand flamer and power weapon on the vet.
It's not done very much for me except die every game so far so I'm tempted to drop it completely. But i just love the unit itself and in the pod it scratches my fluffy itch.
Before i do does anyone have any suggestion's on what to do with it? ie change the load out, which i can do and/or squad size and try other role's? I see other's tend to use a melta-gun. Are they combat squadding or just popping off the odd melta shot and wasting the rest of the squad?
Think about putting your tacticals in a rhino or a razorback.
My go to with the last dex was a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun and a dual plas vet sergeant in a heavy bolter razorback.
Squad did excellent for me.
That was 160 pts.
For 175 in the current dex you can get 5 tactical marines with a plasma gun and a combi-plas on the serg in a las/plas razorback.
The trick is to use the razorback to screen other units as they're advancing, dump the tacticals so they can shoot at something, and then run around the board holding points.
This is the sort of squad that doesn't have to kill its point cost back to be 'worth it'
So i made the cut to the top 8 in the league at my LGS! The competition from here on out will be really tough though. Here are the armies at the top right now.
Note: both necron players are using the old codex, since the league started before the new book dropped.
White Scars bikes with Red Hunter bike allies
Blood Angels DoA with DanteStar (me)
Grey Knights double CAD dreadknight spam with imperial knight
Iron Hands trip mortis contemptors with imperial knight
Necron air force with double pylons
Necron barge spam with transcendent c'tan
Astra Militarium air force with imperial Knight
Orks with Green Tide formation
Top 8 is a single elimination tournament held next Saturday. Getting close to the end!
@Walnuts
Yeah I'm running that for one of my other troop's. I've been trying to avoid spamming but that seem's like the go to set-up for BA tactical squad's.
I would ideally like to keep 10 in a pod. I will clear that up.
th3maninblak wrote: So i made the cut to the top 8 in the league at my LGS! The competition from here on out will be really tough though. Here are the armies at the top right now.
...
Top 8 is a single elimination tournament held next Saturday. Getting close to the end!
