It was released 25 years ago. It's a mass market board game, it's not like it just disappears, kids will be discovering copies in their parents' attics today. I was very young when it was released but played with a hand-me-down in my pre-teen years, it was my first experience with 40k. I think it's more well-known than you realise.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
With this logic so should not exist fantasy female fighters with armour that would kill them if they moved, cannot be realistically attached on them or really have no point of been there.
I see no practical difference in your line and this (skill aside) for all terms and purposes for me you are a competitor dragging a rival down.
And I am expecting from people who represent companies to be professional in a public discussion.
And that's fine, believe what you like? You seem to be presenting something as an argument but I'm not arguing with you. You are more than welcome to consider our product sexist. Perhaps do it in a thread 'about' our product though?
And, just like your ridiculous straw man during the FF threads, Prodos is 'not' a rival of ours. All miniature companies are not just automatic rivals against one another? We definitely do not aim at the same target market as far as this product is concerned
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
Wulfmar wrote: Well, as fun as this all is. Anyone else reminded of Nigels mother in the film 'Brain Dead' towards the end when she tries to consume him with that horrific 'come to mummy Nigel' line when they see the Daemons with the mouth running down their belly?
Obscure B movie reference I know (same director as LOTR believe it or not). I wonder if the sculptor had been inspired by it
Now that you mention it, I could definitely see some influence there. Took me a minute to realise what movie you were talking about, as it's called Dead Alive in the states.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am sorry but what constitutes a sexist sculpt and what constitutes nonsense is in the eye of the beholder, run many of HF sculpts on the "female armour bingo", of a well known site criticizing sexism in the gaming genre and you will get high scores indeed (if the sites view is right or wrong is debatable, but gives another perspective).
So no, I do not buy your line, ours are sexy theirs are sexist, they plunder well known IP we..... you what? many of HF sculpts blatantly use others IP.
You do not see me complain about either because I either don't care or like the end result, but I am expecting you to understand you have no moral high grounds in judging others for the things you and the company you represent do yourself.
I have no dog in this fight as I am no sculptor and work for neither company, but felt like commenting here. I have seen hasslefrees sculpts before and have said to myself "another company making sexy models ", then i see these models and . They are worlds apart in quality of both concept and execution, to compare them to each other is ridiculous. About the only thing that they have in common is that they are scale representations of humanoids, HF models have breasts, waists and hips while Prodos has melons and twigs. There is no comparing the two of them. While I just recently (friday) bought my first HF miniatures (on clearance at a LGS), I have seen many of their sculpts and thought about buying them before. These models (Prodos) are trash. The demonettes/ female chaos warriors are good (only good), and I could see fielding some of those, but the rest are just as tacked on as the boobs themselves. HF may have sculpted the topless gladiator that looks like it could fit well into a bloodbowl team, but they didn't make a board game named BlOOdBowl (BOOB) and fill it with crap models just to try and pay other bills. They make quality models of lots of genres and sell them to fill a niche for respectable gamers. I don't see this as a grudge against another company so much as one company in an industry trying to hold the line against another company that threatens the industry's way of life. Prodos are giving the gaming community a black eye with putting this crap out there. Kingdom Death isn't much better, but at least their stuff is finely detailed and artistic. this stuff is just nonsense and deserves to be binned before it's even produced.
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
Edit: damn by verbosity, everywhere!
Again, if you can't see the difference then there's no point in arguing. It's fairly obvious to me, and despite your assertations, it seems fairly obvious to most people in this and every other thread I've seen about this product. I'm fine with you thinking otherwise, the world would be a boring place if people didn't, but this will remain sexist dogshit regardless.
Should I be starting a thread about me myself at this point? People seem far more interested in me than the product at hand.
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
You realise he said FANTASTY fighter, right? Not historical? He didn't make that argument, you made it for him.
And, just like your ridiculous straw man during the FF threads, Prodos is 'not' a rival of ours. All miniature companies are not just automatic rivals against one another? We definitely do not aim at the same target market as far as this product is concerned
Right, because attacking Scale Games in the FF thread of not showing the actual models and not apologizing when proven wrong was a healthy logical reaction.
I find more strawman your defense than me accusing you on attacking other companies.
Again, if you can't see the difference then there's no point in arguing. It's fairly obvious to me, and despite your assertations, it seems fairly obvious to most people in this and every other thread I've seen about this product. I'm fine with you thinking otherwise, the world would be a boring place if people didn't, but this will remain sexist dogshit regardless.
Should I be starting a thread about me myself at this point? People seem far more interested in me than the product at hand.
Again, just because some opinions line up with yours, doesn't mean all opinions do. And that definitely does not make your opinion a fact.
Regardless, ending this line of discussion. Responding to some artist I've never heard of throwing shade at a game I have little interest in seems to be a rather large waste of time.
And, just like your ridiculous straw man during the FF threads, Prodos is 'not' a rival of ours. All miniature companies are not just automatic rivals against one another? We definitely do not aim at the same target market as far as this product is concerned
Right, because attacking Scale Games in the FF thread of not showing the actual models and not apologizing when proven wrong was a healthy logical reaction.
I find more strawman your defense than me accusing you on attacking other companies.
What are you talking about now? Did you miss the part where I wasn't wrong in the slightest? I was proven 100% right about them lying about the size of their miniatures, they 'changed' that size and openly admitted it.
Are you writing my biography or something? Is there anything else other than this product you'd like to have a chat about? I really like movies if you fancy wibbling about those?
Okay, yes, you made bikini warriors in space, but with hard to believe it works powered armor parts without supporting structures except you PG-13 versions.
Powered boots/greaves with nothing to help power and support them, as well as the arms/shoulders, with no further connection parts/cables/servos and support frame makes for albeit useless armor, unless they are simply scantily clad super human females wearing ornate armor while exposing their internals in some reckless fashion?
Hasslefree fantasy realm figures well, folks fought naked, semi-naked, and armored in various forms as they felt would suit their fighting styles, but presenting the ladies you did in the powered armored crusaders, yet half naked in space where it it so cold, etc, well, they have to be impervious super beings then.
Your PG-13 armored gal is also showing too little waist end support, sorry, but armor hides feminity in real life. This line is pure out and out cheesecake fantasy and should be sold as such, be real here. I like cheesecake, but more so if it makes sense like the daemon troops for the opposing army for those females it makes a bit more sense, especially as they are not trying to wear honking unreal armor, (well the oblits maybe silly) but the rest of the daemon gals seem to be better "balanced"
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
You realise he said FANTASTY fighter, right? Not historical? He didn't make that argument, you made it for him.
He's right about what I meant, a brainfart on my part. The sentence doesn't even make sense if I'd meant fantasy and I hadn't even noticed I'd said it until you brought it up.
No, as I said on BOW its a blunt product that is aimed at an extremely narrow target audience that is known to be big spenders, good on them if it succeeds, if it does not it should be problematic depending on how much they invested on it.
The only noteworthy part of it been the huge disproportionate reaction it got in comparison to other similar products.
And if you was not acting the way you acted in this thread I would not bother commenting really.
Crap sculpts get called out all the time on Dakka. Rightly so.
It keeps being said and I think it is being missed: Compare the Crusaders against the not demons. The Crusaders are sub par sculpts in what should be a fairly unified range artistically. Compare against Warzone (A Prodos product) and the Crusader sculpts look even worse.
Prodos then claim that these figures are sexy (their words). Cheesecake and beging to defend their line with lionks to other companies minis. Compared to nude or partial nude figures supplied by other firms and Prodos look lacking again. Their vision is, at best, something from the eighties.
If I wanted cheescake at its most base I wouldn't even consider the artist prodos have used.
Actually, the first thing that drew me to this thread was wondering how someone was getting away with not only blatant not-space marines (which is a widely done thing), but actually literally using an old GW game's name as theirs.
And then my next though was, "really? Half nude not-Space Marines on top of all that? Huh?"
It's be like having a game between half-nude armies on a giant vinyl hex map, and calling it Battle Masters.
Maybe that's my penance for being an over-30 gamer.
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.
You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"
Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.
No, I get it, he's saying having a nude fighter is something there's historical record of but having fighters that wore heavy armour everywhere except their breasts and arse cheeks less so, and that the motivation for sculpting the models that way is titillation. It's a bit of a leap to say that if models shown in x-ray armour are titillating, then so are all models that feature naked skin. I don't have a dog in that fight, I don't really care for nude models for any manufacturer and think it gets really murky trying to distinguish what is and isn't sexist... but there is a logical thread there to be followed, you just defuse the logic by only bolding that part.
You realise he said FANTASTY fighter, right? Not historical? He didn't make that argument, you made it for him.
I think he worded it poorly because he said "fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist". Obviously they don't, if they're fantasy. Hence, I figured he was using "fantasy" to talk about history.
Out of interest, was this initially an advert for a product that's been finalised, or a bit of market research to see if it would be popular?
All this awkwardness aside, Prodos have changed (or are releasing alternative?) Sculpts after the backlash. Hence my question - final product then back-pedalling, or concept and then changing? Nothing necessarily wrong with either, heck, they reacted to what was said and listened (something I wish GW and even the current Tory Government would do, but that's an entirely other rant).
(And I'm actually on neither side here, both Artemis and Prodos do some cracking sculpts)
PsychoticStorm wrote: The only noteworthy part of it been the huge disproportionate reaction it got in comparison to other similar products.
Yeah, using a name everyone's familiar with will do that. If they'd called it something else I doubt nearly as many people would give a gak, but even then you'd still have people saying where the hell is my KS stuff, Prodos.
Wulfmar wrote: Out of interest, was this initially an advert for a product that's been finalised, or a bit of market research to see if it would be popular?
Product has been finalized and is for presale on the Prodos webstore. Doesn't come out until June I believe, but the sculpts for individual sale are available either now or in the next month.
Now this escalated quite quickly. You're sure you want to waste your time arguing about this?
Prodos' Space Crusade line is clearly intended to a specific and particular public target. It's not for everyone, that's quite clear. You don't like them? Don't buy from them. There are plenty of other companies that makes miniatures more suited to your tastes.
It's especially uglier when someone from another company criticize their work while they aren't really in position to do so.
As for myself, I know from who I will buy - and I won't bother to try to launch a witch hunt against something that doesn't suit my own, personnal, tastes.
And yeah, I find these miniatures really funny...and quite of good quality. It seems like Prodos still listened and is making a "full armour" line. That's honestly a great idea; more choice is always better in that Golden Age of Miniatures.
Guildsman wrote: "Today, students, we'll be learning how to alienate our customer base. We'll start with grotesque sexualization, and then move on to blatant insults towards the competition."
What an absolute trainwreck.
Yeah, Hasslefree is really going down the drain.
Oh, no, don't get the wrong idea. I was talking about Prodos and their ridiculous "adult" miniatures. Putting out the Bikini Legion and then trying to claim them as more artistic than other, better sculpted nude figures is a joke. Artemis might be rude and antagonistic (sorry, no two ways about that), but he's still right. Even if the AvP Kickstarter hadn't failed so poorly, I'd still write off buying anything from Prodos ever again.
I honestly do not expect to be that many of us left that "fondly remember Space Crusade" its what? 25 years dead?, I said I think this name means almost nothing to most of the buyers base and I do not see than much comment on the Space Crusade part.
Without getting involved on your and Arty's slapfight, I find this statement amusing. True, Space Crusade was a long time ago now, but - like HeroQuest, the name still has quite a lot of value and worth. So you're simply wrong if you think it means nothing to "most" of the buyer base. How much did the HQ25 KS make in it's first days before it got C&D'ed off Kickstarter? How much did it still manage to make in the end, in it's final convoluted form on a Spanish crowdfunding site that most people wouldn't touch with a barge pole?
I don't know, if the wargamers of that era (35+) are the major force behind the market, then the hobby is in trouble, I am expecting a healthy 20-30 been the average hobbyist age which should render the name "Space Crusade" obscure to most, if I am mistaken and the main bulk of the hobby market is in the bracket of 35-40's then yes, it is not obscure at all, but I have some worries about the hobby.
Azazelx wrote: Without getting involved on your and Arty's slapfight, I find this statement amusing. True, Space Crusade was a long time ago now, but - like HeroQuest, the name still has quite a lot of value and worth. So you're simply wrong if you think it means nothing to "most" of the buyer base. How much did the HQ25 KS make in it's first days before it got C&D'ed off Kickstarter? How much did it still manage to make in the end, in it's final convoluted form on a Spanish crowdfunding site that most people wouldn't touch with a barge pole?
To be fair I have never heard of Space Crusade but I have heard of Hero Quest. I didn't know Space Crusade existed until this post when searching for information for gameplay on this game, the searches ended up taking you to Board Game Geek which wasn't this game (so that is confusing). I think on both sides of the topic what the name, value, worth and how known something is subjective. I'm not saying that I represent the majority of gamers but I think the assumption that "Space Crusade" is well known is based on the assumption or background of WH40K gamers. That assumes that WH40K gamers number more than other gamers and thus should have knowledge of the game. I mean people know of WH40K whether they play or not, but I wouldn't take that just because they know of WH40K they would know of board games like Space Crusade or Space Hulk over the WH40K brand. At least that is my opinion.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I don't know, if the wargamers of that era (35+) are the major force behind the market, then the hobby is in trouble, I am expecting a healthy 20-30 been the average hobbyist age which should render the name "Space Crusade" obscure to most, if I am mistaken and the main bulk of the hobby market is in the bracket of 35-40's then yes, it is not obscure at all, but I have some worries about the hobby.
We be the ones with the largest disposable income, so might well be, especially those with kids in the hobby as well. I didn't enjoy space crusade all that much to be honest. Still look back on it fondly though. Conjures up images of my grans wallpaper for some reason.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I don't know, if the wargamers of that era (35+) are the major force behind the market, then the hobby is in trouble, I am expecting a healthy 20-30 been the average hobbyist age which should render the name "Space Crusade" obscure to most, if I am mistaken and the main bulk of the hobby market is in the bracket of 35-40's then yes, it is not obscure at all, but I have some worries about the hobby.
Have you been to a Wargames show lately? Or a non-GW games store? Now the internet may skew overall customers to the younger where I can't see them, but I don't see huge numbers of younger gamers outside of GW.
Here's an interesting survey of 8k + respondents - I'm sure that the methodology isn't perfect, but it was fairly well publicised, and almost 50% are 40+ years old.
Have you been to a Wargames show lately? Or a non-GW games store? Now the internet may skew overall customers to the younger where I can't see them, but I don't see huge numbers of younger gamers outside of GW.
I am afraid no on the first, last show I was was Gencon 2013, We do not have wargame shows here unfortunately, wish the critical mass was big enouph to have one, no on the second too, no GW store in this country and never been into one, beyond UKGW stores are quite rare.
I remember this survey you are right, it also said that almost 50% of gamers were a gamer for up to 20 years well after Space Crusade was available, that been said I judge it from my experience, I do not know what longevity it had in the UK, in Greece and Netherlands it was out for one or two years and then disappeared.
Saw where someone said people were defending HF or prodos a few pages ago and my comment was right before theirs. (Seems to be buried.)
I don't support either company now after this, I have a few HF miniatures (the fireteam one with the full space suits and guns to clarify,) but, I see neither company is worth buying from.
Honestly I would have loved a modern Space Crusade. My older brothers played that when I was a kid. However, that's obviously not what we got.
Humm after to many popcorn consumed over this beauty of a thread I must say that its clear that Prodos looks desperate for the fast buck in order to complete the AVP KS fiasco... so someone there had a major brainfart moment and imagined that picking an old and loved license and create a porn version of it would be that fast buck, because GW and porn both sell well right?
Lets face it these companies are small and cannot sustain themselves if they dont sell as much as possible at any given chance, because if they were big the guy that had the brainfart would be fired on the spot, I suggest that Prodos puts this guy away from generating any ideas for a couple decades or so and if he is the boss or someone high please block his porn at work.
My honest suggestion to Prodos is keep it simple and promote AVP because its dead silent on that front, even the new boxed sets releases were really discreet, come on shape up guys and USE that license, WTF are on the cards and why is there not like a constant stream of news about it?
On a tangent It would be interesting to record of how many Kickstarters ruined companies and/or their reputation.
All of a sudden I have a vision of Tony Reidy (not sure if that's the right spelling, and I have no idea what he looks like) sitting at a desk at Prodos during a job interview saying that this one plan will turn Prodos into a Major Player. He then goes on to tell them that he has a great design for an armoured suit they should kickstart
I don't understand how so many people can be declaring this is crap product and therefore a failure or a money grab destined to not grab money. Just because *you* think it's crap doesn't mean there aren't 15 other people who for some weird reason don't express their interest in this sort of product here on Dakka. And, after this thread, certainly never will. The supply for "sexy space marines/daemons" is pretty limited, so even sculpts you might find to be amateurish or even just plain bad are going to sell (in quantity) to a certain market. I'm more shocked that these guys are the first to actually make a serious run at it. Yes there's Raging Heroes, but that's a fairly different aesthetic, doesn't include Daemons/Chaos, and has their own issues (they'll be delivered when?).
Making assumptions on sales is probably ill advised, but I don't think there's anything wrong with judging the model quality or what seems transparent about intent.
On the classic Space Crusade subject;
I'm 40, and nobody in the game group I grew up with played or had heard of Space Crusade.
HeroQuest on the other hand, I think almost all of us had our own copies.
Our entry into "real" GW was the Mighty Warriors box and the Space Hulk stuff that was out just prior to 40k 2nd edition.
Zywus wrote: And people are still bitching about people raging. Which is amazing in and of itself...
Bitching? God forbid. This is endlessly amusing. Only reason I visit the thread these days. Rage on, my friends. Show those demeaning cishet patriarchal fedora-wearing MRAs what for!
Zywus wrote: And people are still bitching about people raging. Which is amazing in and of itself...
Bitching? God forbid. This is endlessly amusing. Only reason I visit the thread these days. Rage on, my friends. Show those demeaning cishet patriarchal fedora-wearing MRAs what for!
I honestly don't think I've ever met a real person who talks about SJWs and MRAs etc. Is it possible you're some kind of bot who just says random things from terrible websites? To be fair I would find that pretty damn awesome.
That's the things about free market, if the individuals don't like the product they don't have to buy it. It's not like a tax. For those of us that like 'em. Yay!
Hm artemis black i agree with your points but the naked bloodbowl girls from hasslefree are IMHO in the same line as the prodos 18/15+ space crusaders, let's fight a match without padding, Off course the HF ones are more anatomically correct.
Like the naked tau/inquisitor/mechanicus/guard from wargames exclusive, there is a market for it.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Hm artemis black i agree with your points but the naked bloodbowl girls from hasslefree are IMHO in the same line as the prodos 18/15+ space crusaders, let's fight a match without padding, Off course the HF ones are more anatomically correct.
The Bloodbowl Kalee is just a slight variant of the Fantasy chaos warrior Kalee,. Kev just gave her a helmet It predates us working together but I believe it was as a star player for Amazon players as a fan request, that's the cheesecake team right? (Also Kev hates making football stuff )
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jamesk1973 wrote: So glad I have never spent a dime on Hasselfree product.
Me too! I hate those guys, registering a name so close to ours.
MRA..huh...Ive never actually heard that. I had to look it up. Its good that everyone has a title for everyone else. Its nice that we all have at least something in common.
Artemis...your kinda losing customers for Kev and making his company look bad. Which is a shame. Cause he comes across (from what I''ve seen) as a really decent guy.
Also Amazons are just the all female team...they don't necessarily have to be cheesecake. There also one of the better starter teams IMO
rayphoton wrote: MRA..huh...Ive never actually heard that. I had to look it up. Its good that everyone has a title for everyone else. Its nice that we all have at least something in common.
Artemis...your kinda losing customers for Kev and making his company look bad. Which is a shame. Cause he comes across (from what I''ve seen) as a really decent guy.
He's not, he's terrible. Kills puppies for fun. He also hates customers, so I'm just doing him a favour really.
Since the ip is up for grabs now with Space Crusade, and due to the fact puppies were mentioned.
Dashund Crusade. If there was a 28mm game with Dashunds in adorable space warrior suits, I'd buy it, and I would be happy to let the cousins play it when they come over
Wulfmar wrote: Since the ip is up for grabs now with Space Crusade, and due to the fact puppies were mentioned.
Dashund Crusade. If there was a 28mm game with Dashunds in adorable space warrior suits, I'd buy it, and I would be happy to let the cousins play it when they come over
No! SPACE HUNDS!
With limited edition power armoured Spots the Space marine?
EDIT- For some reason I thought the 'Spots' book featured a dog. Apparently it doesn't, so my attempt at a joke wasn't nearly as successful as I imagined.
skarsol wrote: I don't understand how so many people can be declaring this is crap product and therefore a failure or a money grab destined to not grab money. Just because *you* think it's crap doesn't mean there aren't 15 other people who for some weird reason don't express their interest in this sort of product here on Dakka. And, after this thread, certainly never will. The supply for "sexy space marines/daemons" is pretty limited, so even sculpts you might find to be amateurish or even just plain bad are going to sell (in quantity) to a certain market. I'm more shocked that these guys are the first to actually make a serious run at it. Yes there's Raging Heroes, but that's a fairly different aesthetic, doesn't include Daemons/Chaos, and has their own issues (they'll be delivered when?).
No, this is a point to target that Prodos ALREADY has a game out there unfulfilled.
ALIENS Vs PREDATORS is one of the hottest IP's you can ever get to pull off, and these guys are systematically peeing all over the fan base, and wasting resources that should be put to THIS silly haphazard garbage money grab that looks like crap in a box. Those are a waste of time and resources in a oversaturated market, they want their games that the KS funded, no one wants that crap.
How exactly do you pull out that Space Crusade should be anything other then the already present game system that is legendary, you know... Milton Bradley already HAD this game. Putting the title to this gak was disingenuous at best, and playing off of an already established name brand and capitalizing on the T and A angle as a intended ploy for the sale at worst.
The sculpts are half assed, at the good points, and they are obvious "Female Space Marine" angle that is pissing in the face of the already established IP. Not to mention here we are, what 2 or 2 and a half years AFTER the deadline, and I don't have my stuff that I already threw down close to a even Grand for? Then they have the balls to say that the rest of the lines going to be delayed even further? no, !@$# that.
So what your saying is that they took the munnies that I shelled out for AvP to fund this crap, because.. you know that was what the KS was for, and that everyone is supposed to say, oh, yeah.. that's what we really wanted, Space marines, with tits!!!! .
What it looks like in the end is that you overshot your goal, don't have the material finished, and that this second KS was either to complete the project, or to get yourself into an even deeper hole, not only financially, but to piss all over your reputation, not only to not fund KS's, but to shell out gak and try to sell it as a gold bar.
Yeah, maybe someone wants female space marines, but I don't. I want my Aliens Vs Predators.
Hi all, another small update WIP actually of "armoured miniatures",
Riot 6, thanks for your comments, AvP is not a topic of this discussion, frankly, as per our update we have put a release plan for AvP, WZR and SC.
Currently AvP is on hold with releases until we finish 2nd Wave.
WZR is on schedule with release.
SC was planed for this month release.
Our company have suffered a lot, due to delays with approval on AvPs element, and we have been idling for more than 2y because of that, so the reason why we are working on new releases is because we are almost done with AvP (KS). As for AvP, we have in plans an Expansion with a Huge model (can't say more), and a new Board Game "more board game than a wargame" ( June release to be announced) .
I would like to point out as well, that we have "just" 1 KS to fulfil, there is many companies running 4 or even 5 in a row and still not even 1 fully completed, so I understand that we are talking here about Prodos in this topic, but please have a look around you and maybe judge us through "market standards" in terms of releases of the product.
Now, back on the topic, we are working on 2nd Heroine for armoured version of the board game (I need to stop calling it pg13 really). What is dakkadakka take on it?
Dentry wrote: All this talk of the old Space Crusade has me curious how fun the boardgame will be. My original intent was just to pick up Artemis and Maras.
I'll have to look more into the game and see if it's worth a purchase. (Keepin' mah pre-order!)
7
I'll be doing an interview with BOW regarding the design and the board game itself.
I can assure everyone that the game is in the "taste" of old Space Crusade, not even that, you will have an option to use your existing miniatures as NPCs (from any range) - this flexibility is incorporated in the game with an additional "Advanced Game" card deck.
The core rules should be available in a week or two, I hope, once we have the rules out it will be clear to many Dakkadakkars why we have called the game Space Crusade, and what is the master plan behind it... it's not cash-grab-name...
Just thought I'd point out that 'feedback' has been coming in from other sources, not just Dakkadakka. It seems like the feelings expressed here are the same being expressed elsewhere.
ArbitorIan wrote: Just thought I'd point out that 'feedback' has been coming in from other sources, not just Dakkadakka. It seems like the feelings expressed here are the same being expressed elsewhere.
The render looks good, but I would like to see some sort of support between the leg armor and the upper body armor, even if it is just a pair of armatures on the sides of her thighs and torso.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The render looks good, but I would like to see some sort of support between the leg armor and the upper body armor, even if it is just a pair of armatures on the sides of her thighs and torso.
This would go a long way to making the armor look more functional.
If I had scammed Dakka members out of thousands of dollars and failed to deliver promised goods in exchange for going on 2+ years now would Dakka still let me post asking people to give me more money like they are letting prodos do?
If yes, then does anybody want to fund my kickstarter? It's Called. "War Necropocalypsamunda hammer".
And yes it's gonna have some sweet sculpts of space dudes with their junk hanging out.
CT GAMER wrote: If I had scammed Dakka members out of thousands of dollars and failed to deliver promised goods in exchange for going on 2+ years now would Dakka still let me post asking people to give me more money like they are letting prodos do?
If yes, then does anybody want to fund my kickstarter? It's Called. "War Necropocalypsamunda hammer".
And yes it's gonna have some sweet sculpts of space dudes with their junk hanging out.
That's pretty strong statement, are you put all late KS into the same "scam" basket?
You know why so many official representatives of wargaming companies are staying away form Dakkadakka?
I have been advised many many times to stay way from this forum by other companies, like others do....
So please can some admin tidy up here a bit, before it will became really painful to come back here with any official update?
CT GAMER wrote: If I had scammed Dakka members out of thousands of dollars and failed to deliver promised goods in exchange for going on 2+ years now would Dakka still let me post asking people to give me more money like they are letting prodos do?
If yes, then does anybody want to fund my kickstarter? It's Called. "War Necropocalypsamunda hammer".
And yes it's gonna have some sweet sculpts of space dudes with their junk hanging out.
That's pretty strong statement, are you put all late KS into the same "scam" basket?
You know why so many official representatives of wargaming companies are staying away form Dakkadakka?
I have been advised many many times to stay way from this forum by other companies, like others do....
So please can some admin tidy up here a bit, before it will became really painful to come back here with any official update?
I'm not a mod, but I would hazard a guess that "ability to deliver based on previous experiences" would be fair game for discussion.
Also curious about which companies avoid dakkadakka that have warned you about this "many, many times"? And why they would avoid dakkadakka in the first place? Lack of control over comments?
I'm not a mod, but I would hazard a guess that "ability to deliver based on previous experiences" would be fair game for discussion.
Also curious about which companies avoid dakkadakka that have warned you about this "many, many times"? And why they would avoid dakkadakka in the first place? Lack of control over comments?
All of my, very real and not at all made up, industry friends also told me to avoid Dakka. Nothing to do with the comments, they just said it smelled like beef soup.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm not a mod, but I would hazard a guess that "ability to deliver based on previous experiences" would be fair game for discussion.
While this is the case, we also ask folks to be polite in their criticism, and to stay on topic.
This thread checks a lot of boxes for things that make people passionate (40k-related figures, revealing figures, a company that has other campaigns fulfilling, etc) but we just ask that everyone please take a step back and only post if you have something useful to add - the sarcastic posts, off-topic commentary about "SJW" and the like, are simply not helpful. There are also warnings from two different mods on the prior page regarding posts like these, so anything further that is:
1) Off-topic
2) Needlessly antagonistic and rude towards other posters here, or even the company / product
Will result in a short suspension from the site. You can make legitimate criticisms without being rude, and also respond to such - and that's what we ask for on Dakka.
Thanks for understanding all - any questions, just send a PM.
You know why so many official representatives of wargaming companies are staying away form Dakkadakka?
I have been advised many many times to stay way from this forum by other companies, like others do....
Think of how poor form that is to pretty much everyone here...
I dont care much of what people say these days but you are really coming just about in all the wrong ways in this thread...
Personally speaking Im typically the most hardcore alien/ preda fan since I can remember and I even covered your game last salutes, ignoring the bad KS stuff and all, you know motivating all my friends etc. I also had planned serious pounds just for avp this salute... I need to be more selective now since I do not want to impose my dubious presence in your stand.
[snip]... we are working on 2nd Heroine for armoured version of the board game (I need to stop calling it pg13 really). What is dakkadakka take on it?
I like it well enough to keep an eye on progress. Obviously final greens (or fimo/procreate/whatever) armed and posed will greatly influence any purchase.
As it stands i'm inclined to pick up one and sculpt some tabards and sleeves and see if i like it as proxy for Adeptas Sororitas. ( <- i have no idea if I spelled that right. I'm forever going to stick with "Sisters of Battle".)
But this concept art is SO unlike the 18+ stuff that i do, again, wonder if:
1) you have the resources to support a parallel line of sculpts
2) you're going to split any fanbase you may have - might create a culture of "let's play Space Crusade!" > "awesome here are my painted up models!" > "get that crap off the table! I'm not going to play with you!"
CT GAMER wrote: If I had scammed Dakka members out of thousands of dollars and failed to deliver promised goods in exchange for going on 2+ years now would Dakka still let me post asking people to give me more money like they are letting prodos do?
If yes, then does anybody want to fund my kickstarter? It's Called. "War Necropocalypsamunda hammer".
And yes it's gonna have some sweet sculpts of space dudes with their junk hanging out.
That's pretty strong statement, are you put all late KS into the same "scam" basket?
You know why so many official representatives of wargaming companies are staying away form Dakkadakka?
I have been advised many many times to stay way from this forum by other companies, like others do....
So please can some admin tidy up here a bit, before it will became really painful to come back here with any official update?
I'm not a mod, but I would hazard a guess that "ability to deliver based on previous experiences" would be fair game for discussion.
Also curious about which companies avoid dakkadakka that have warned you about this "many, many times"? And why they would avoid dakkadakka in the first place? Lack of control over comments?
Thanks as for ability to deliver, not sure if you are aware, AvP is our 2nd KS, was one was WZR, delivered... and, not like other miniatures companies, we haven't gone for another 4 KS before we had it all out of the door. AvP KS went very very wrong mainly due to being told what to when it got approved, to put simply, we are only selling the product called AvP (with our logo on it) without any decision making process about how/when it goes up. Not expecting you to understand, but I would, at least expect from you to read and understand some official information provided by us if you would like to have any discussion about AvP and KS with me.
Space Crusade is not IP product, is our and it will be with pre-orders and then shops with no (3rd party) delays, NO 1 is going to tell us what to do with it, no1 is going to hold off of approval for months, because "its not a right time to piggy it back on other releases" and no 1 is going to tell us how to release it.
So AvP vs SC there is a HUGE difference, ==========> an IP owner.
I hope, that you can now see a difference between a licence product and owned by us. And that is what will affect ability to deliver it, big time!
Not sure if you have been following AvP but we had full protorype of the game in September 2014! (in fact on time with KS delivery date?) and it was approved in August 2015.
[snip]... we are working on 2nd Heroine for armoured version of the board game (I need to stop calling it pg13 really). What is dakkadakka take on it?
I like it well enough to keep an eye on progress. Obviously final greens (or fimo/procreate/whatever) armed and posed will greatly influence any purchase.
As it stands i'm inclined to pick up one and sculpt some tabards and sleeves and see if i like it as proxy for Adeptas Sororitas. ( <- i have no idea if I spelled that right. I'm forever going to stick with "Sisters of Battle".)
But this concept art is SO unlike the 18+ stuff that i do, again, wonder if:
1) you have the resources to support a parallel line of sculpts
2) you're going to split any fanbase you may have - might create a culture of "let's play Space Crusade!" > "awesome here are my painted up models!" > "get that crap off the table! I'm not going to play with you!"
Thanks for your comment, yes, we have resources for this activity, Prodos GAmes LTD employs 3 full time sculptors, currently we ave just 1 assigned to this project.
point 2, is actually very valid, we ahve been thinking about it, however, A) we had significant sales on non-armored versions, B) we have to take that risk I am afraid, as e need armored version as well.
I'd like to add, hopefully it's not being seen as too off topic. But between this product, and the responses from the company here (including passive-aggressive swipes at other companies), my thoughts are very much cemented on me most certainly not purchasing any product from Prodos Games.
As such is my choice as a potential customer, as is my choice to leave this feedback.
Of course, it is also Prodos Games' choice to take, or ignore, this feedback as they see fit.
I was more worried about the reports from some backers of not receiving all of their product; of which a few I believe were the core box game? I know I've seen the demo at Gencon, and the figures are indeed very nice so I know it's out in the wild.
As I said, I'm more concerned regarding the lack of delivery of certain items to backers from the AvP Kickstarter, and how that may affect the Space Crusade venture? I know Adam Poots from Kingdom Death has said that a large chunk of his resin sales helped ship the KD:Monster Kickstarter, and most backers seemed to be satisfied by it. Are you using the Space Crusade models as a way to hopefully fund the shipping of AvP backers remaining rewards? Or is the lack of delivery on those items indicative of possible non-delivery of Space Crusade?
You know why so many official representatives of wargaming companies are staying away form Dakkadakka?
I have been advised many many times to stay way from this forum by other companies, like others do....
Think of how poor form that is to pretty much everyone here...
I dont care much of what people say these days but you are really coming just about in all the wrong ways in this thread...
Personally speaking Im typically the most hardcore alien/ preda fan since I can remember and I even covered your game last salutes, ignoring the bad KS stuff and all, you know motivating all my friends etc. I also had planned serious pounds just for avp this salute... I need to be more selective now since I do not want to impose my dubious presence in your stand.
Thanks for your comment, sorry, there is really no reason to hide what industry think in general about dakkadakka, as I said, there is no other "medium size" companies reps here and there is a reason for this.
I have been advised to leave Dakkadakka on its own by others, as I will get "excrement thrown into my face and ask to eat it by some members of this forum", but hey I never listen and pay the price afterwards.
So maybe something should change on this forum. If you go back few pages you will find a lot of personal attack towards my person or company from people without even a bit of knowledge about avp ks deliver nor other Prodos related products or ability to deliver it.
Really, dakkkadakkka, allowing this behavior towards any company reps, simply alienate itself. You see, it works both ways, other companies seeing this mess, won't come here to get slammed only.
That was as much constructive criticism I can give about this topic, no hard feelings.
as for ability to deliver : FFS we have delivered miniatures for 12 fricking kiskstarters, 135k (135 THOUSANDS of miniatures manufactured in 2015 alone for others) you probably own them without even knowing about it and YES AVP KS blah blah blah, that is completely out of our control and we pay a huge price for touching this license... so questioning an ability to deliver something we are making in house (NOT in China form toxic carcinogenic PVC you are feeding yourself and your family with) is a bit silly.
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Compel wrote: I'd like to add, hopefully it's not being seen as too off topic. But between this product, and the responses from the company here (including passive-aggressive swipes at other companies), my thoughts are very much cemented on me most certainly not purchasing any product from Prodos Games.
As such is my choice as a potential customer, as is my choice to leave this feedback.
Of course, it is also Prodos Games' choice to take, or ignore, this feedback as they see fit.
Thanks for your feedback, we clearly have no product that you will find attractive for your self. I totally understand this, you see same goes for me, I never go buy any PVC product as I know, to make a PVC miniature you have to add in manufacturing process di (2-ethylhexyl) phthalate (DEHP), dibutyl phthalate (DBP) and butylbenzyl phthalate (BBP) (softeners) that is highly toxic and can give you a cancer ... and in fact its not allowed to be used in any toys by EU Directive 2005/84/EC, but companies are avoiding this by calling the miniatures 12+ or "this is not a toy".
and on the side note, you have just made a classic point why no other reps are coming here, they simply got offended o their companies ether way, can't even try to defend with some valid points at as this is seen ans passive-aggressive... it's like being on a looser position from the start with no ability to at least how a different perspective to the subject.
Have you ever thought of hiring someone to be in charge of marketing?
That's not a suggestion, I'd much rather read your posts abusing the forum you're on and implying other companies products cause cancer, because hilarity,
Artemis Black wrote: Have you ever thought of hiring someone to be in charge of marketing?
That's not a suggestion, I'd much rather read your posts abusing the forum you're on and implying other companies products cause cancer, because hilarity,
Yes, we have PR people in the business but they stay away from dakkadakka, it's really only me, wanting to save the world.
Have you been thinking about the same? If I recall correctly you have called me a liar .... it's not really professional to imply that other companies reps are liars. is it? btw I gave you a link with a snapshot from our web sales, just to feed your curiosity.
Artemis Black wrote: Have you ever thought of hiring someone to be in charge of marketing?
That's not a suggestion, I'd much rather read your posts abusing the forum you're on and implying other companies products cause cancer, because hilarity,
Yes, we have PR people in the business but they stay away from dakkadakka, it's really only me, wanting to save the world.
Have you been thinking about the same? If I recall correctly you have called me a liar .... it's not really professional to imply that other companies reps are liars. is it? btw I gave you a link with a snapshot from our web sales, just to feed your curiosity.
I believe that technically I only obviously and heavily implied you were lying. But in my defense it was only because your pants were on fire
I was more worried about the reports from some backers of not receiving all of their product; of which a few I believe were the core box game? I know I've seen the demo at Gencon, and the figures are indeed very nice so I know it's out in the wild.
As I said, I'm more concerned regarding the lack of delivery of certain items to backers from the AvP Kickstarter, and how that may affect the Space Crusade venture? I know Adam Poots from Kingdom Death has said that a large chunk of his resin sales helped ship the KD:Monster Kickstarter, and most backers seemed to be satisfied by it. Are you using the Space Crusade models as a way to hopefully fund the shipping of AvP backers remaining rewards? Or is the lack of delivery on those items indicative of possible non-delivery of Space Crusade?
we have gave away a delivery plan to backers for AvP and we are on a good route to complete it. wave 2 is in 80% out. Upon completing it (before end of February/ mid march for Australia) that is 91% of total value in gbp of delivered product, what left is remaining elements (random models).
As explained above, Space Crusade is going up as we are almost out form AvP KS mess, thus, we want to increase the range of our products, Prodos Games due to KS delay was idling for almost 2 years, now we want to move ahead with new releases. In fact Space Crusade was TM by us in 2013! 3 years ago...
anyway I think this off-top went a bit too far, so sorry for my rudeness and please accept my apology if I offended anyone.... I'll have a cold shower and maybe this will cool down my brain a bit, Thanks.
Artemis Black wrote: Have you ever thought of hiring someone to be in charge of marketing?
That's not a suggestion, I'd much rather read your posts abusing the forum you're on and implying other companies products cause cancer, because hilarity,
Doctors recommend Prodos' quality miniatures, that won't* give you cancer* like the next leading brand*
Warzone Resurrection, I am surprised to see you still posting here after what some people here have said about Produs and a great deal of unprofessional behaviour from other company reps. I think you have replied in a professional manner and will be purchasing some miniatures from you with the money I was going to spend at a different company that posts here, but they have acted in a child like manner.
I like cheese cake but your PG18+ Space Crusade is not for me, however I like the progress you are making with your fully armoured Warriors and the demons are ace to! I may even pick up AvP as well.
On that note, your TM registration in the US has lapsed as of January 2015 it appears. Still good in the UK until 2023, so it's probably not particularly hard to re-do, but it does likely need doing.
Also, most companies don't like wandering away from their native forums and company-friendly moderation because it would mean confronting the fact that they are indeed screwing up. This is not just Prodos, as I can't think of a single company in this market that hasn't screwed up enough to earn customer ire. So, while I find your handling of the AvP mess to be most off-putting, I will at least say to take your lumps when trying to sell your new project, as you yourself point out, is more than many medium-to-large sized businesses will do. Doesn't excuse the limbo and communications black-out many backers are in about where their pledges are years later, but credit for doing something that most wouldn't.
On that note, your TM registration in the US has lapsed as of January 2015 it appears. Still good in the UK until 2023, so it's probably not particularly hard to re-do, but it does likely need doing.
Also, most companies don't like wandering away from their native forums and company-friendly moderation because it would mean confronting the fact that they are indeed screwing up. This is not just Prodos, as I can't think of a single company in this market that hasn't screwed up enough to earn customer ire. So, while I find your handling of the AvP mess to be most off-putting, I will at least say to take your lumps when trying to sell your new project, as you yourself point out, is more than many medium-to-large sized businesses will do. Doesn't excuse the limbo and communications black-out many backers are in about where their pledges are years later, but credit for doing something that most wouldn't.
Hi there, thanks for your comment, yes I am aware about USA TM, the application was sent for renewal just a week ago, so it will take few more weeks to be seen on the system (we had like 6 months post due date + 6 months and another 2 months, and we always late with paperwork )
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overtyrant wrote: Warzone Resurrection, I am surprised to see you still posting here after what some people here have said about Produs and a great deal of unprofessional behaviour from other company reps. I think you have replied in a professional manner and will be purchasing some miniatures from you with the money I was going to spend at a different company that posts here, but they have acted in a child like manner.
I like cheese cake but your PG18+ Space Crusade is not for me, however I like the progress you are making with your fully armoured Warriors and the demons are ace to! I may even pick up AvP as well.
This is a mess of a thread, a lot of you need to clean up your posting. I'd rather not have to sling warnings around so this is a general warning for the thread. Cool it and be polite, or else.
I like it, i guess the awkward pose is because the 3 D modelling and it is not the final pose?
What will a helmeted version look like?
Can we get back to blaming the boobie miniatures and leave the AvP talk to the AvP forum? Also small and medium sized game/miniature companies post here, don't know what that was about.
As long as you are cordial, most people are ok, just don't grab the troll bait. And keep company and personal
feelings separate.
Dentry wrote: All this talk of the old Space Crusade has me curious how fun the boardgame will be. My original intent was just to pick up Artemis and Maras.
I'll have to look more into the game and see if it's worth a purchase. (Keepin' mah pre-order!)
7
I'll be doing an interview with BOW regarding the design and the board game itself.
I can assure everyone that the game is in the "taste" of old Space Crusade, not even that, you will have an option to use your existing miniatures as NPCs (from any range) - this flexibility is incorporated in the game with an additional "Advanced Game" card deck.
The core rules should be available in a week or two, I hope, once we have the rules out it will be clear to many Dakkadakkars why we have called the game Space Crusade, and what is the master plan behind it... it's not cash-grab-name...
Thanks and please stay tuned!
Ah, that sounds good. Will you be showcasing the models and other game components on BoW?
Jehan-reznor wrote: I like it, i guess the awkward pose is because the 3 D modelling and it is not the final pose?
What will a helmeted version look like?
The pose shouldn't be the final pose so yeah it would look awkward. Typically t-poses are used for modeling and sculpting. Once that is completed then they pose the miniature, then do the cuts and any final cleanup for joints, etc.
I think that particular rendition is meant for the Crusaders and none of them are helmeted, unlike the Inquisitors which have that helmet looking incasing (not sure what that would be called). I would like to know if they will be doing separate heads so people could do head swaps with a helmet, or if the torso will be a one piece with the head.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I like it, i guess the awkward pose is because the 3 D modelling and it is not the final pose?
What will a helmeted version look like?
.
While it's certainly less silly than the bikini version, it still ultimately has the same problem of heavy armour on the shoulders and legs, and none in between. Particularly with the lower leg armour being so heavy, it just looks weird.
insaniak wrote: While it's certainly less silly than the bikini version, it still ultimately has the same problem of heavy armour on the shoulders and legs, and none in between. Particularly with the lower leg armour being so heavy, it just looks weird.
Isn't that technically on par with Sisters of Battles though? I mean don't they have large shoulder pads, with a corset light/medium breasplate (depending on what image you go from), then fabric pants, with leg plates on them and armored boots. Another example would be star wars armor for mandalorians, they are essentially armor plates on a fabric jumpsuit. Even storm troopers are the same, armor plates fitted over a dark fabric suit of some sort.
Also force fields, so armor is really just a backup for when the force fields don't work. Unless that really isn't what protects them and that was a joke (no idea) *shrugs* I would like to know more about the game play though, but guess we'll have to wait till the BoW videos.
Dark Severance wrote: Isn't that technically on par with Sisters of Battles though? I mean don't they have large shoulder pads, with a corset light/medium breasplate (depending on what image you go from), then fabric pants, with leg plates on them and armored boots. Another example would be star wars armor for mandalorians, they are essentially armor plates on a fabric jumpsuit. Even storm troopers are the same, armor plates fitted over a dark fabric suit of some sort.
There's a difference between wearing pants with armour plates on them, and wearing pants that don't have armour plates on them.
Battle Sisters have fully armoured legs. The corset is a little ambiguous, but I've always assumed it was actually a breastplate that just looks like a corset, or leather over an actual breastplate.
That's not at all the same thing as in this image... She's wearing armour knee-boots over what looks like regular pants, and has a similar lack of protection on her lower torso.
Also force fields, so armor is really just a backup for when the force fields don't work.
In which case it would still make more sense ot have the 'just for backup' armour covering the bits that actually matter (ie - the torso) rather than just her shins, arms and boobs.
The armour boots can make sense, if you had the armature Bob suggested joining the boots to the belt and the belt to the mantle. If the primary purpose is strength augmentation then having a low center of gravity - meaning heavy boots - means you're less likely to have the wearer simply fall over when they try to use that strength.
I do like the look as-is, but if you want an excuse for why it is actually practical, that would be my take on it.
I will be honest - I like a whole lot of things about the models shown - except for the human models themselves.
The renders for the bikes look fine.
The squidgy body horror nastiness of the not-Nurgle things is very good.
It is only the humans that fail.
This Kickstarter might do well if there was an option to skip the humans, and get pretty much everything else - though I will admit that the latest heroine model is a distinct improvement - still not enough support for what appears to be powered armor components, but much better.
The Auld Grump, but I would still want everything except the humans....
This Kickstarter might do well if there was an option to skip the humans, and get pretty much everything else
I was under the impression this was not going to be a KS.
It is most definitely not a KS, that is a mistake by Auld. Just read through this thread or Visit Prodos' webstore to confirm that.
I like the clothed models better, but it still rides too close to being a 40K clone to grab my attention personally. I will also say I do actually like the nurglingesque models, they are disgusting in the right way. I'm curious to see some rules, I still have my original copy of Space Crusade from 20 years ago, so it'll be interesting to see how it compares.
insaniak wrote: There's a difference between wearing pants with armour plates on them, and wearing pants that don't have armour plates on them.
Battle Sisters have fully armoured legs. The corset is a little ambiguous, but I've always assumed it was actually a breastplate that just looks like a corset, or leather over an actual breastplate.
It depends on which concept art that gets referenced. Some of the artwork the armored legs look like Star Wars Stormtrooper armor, wrapped around tight fitting whatever, when you look at the thigh and hip areas.
Overall though I've always considered the armored upper part a frame, very similar to League of Legends Vi who uses a mining rig for her power firsts.
It also depends if we're talking human or modified humans. Most references have been considering traditional armor as opposed to other methods. Similar to having socket connectors like for some of the Starcraft suits, where the suit bolts into the armor and sockets to the legs or upper arms. It is all on perspective. Although I don't technically disagree either, just playing devils advocate a bit.
deadairis wrote: Still looks like a Liefield waist (which is bad).
I'm not seeing that in the last render. The waist is thin, but I've seen smaller waist to hip ratios plenty of times in real life. The proportions are also heroic enough to create plenty of Er, wiggle room.
Also force fields, so armor is really just a backup for when the force fields don't work.
So, like the guys from the Gates of Antarees setting, then?
Hyper-light Shield (HL or HLS) Hyper-light shielding recognises the energy signature of incoming attacks and projects a specific, focused counter against it. The more distant or lower velocity the attack, the more effectively hyper-light shielding is able to identify and defend against it. Hyper-light shielding is the standard armour worn by Concord military units.
I like the demons, That one I think would be one of the best large female demons. And the one in the first post is top also, but like others I not keen on the humans armour, the 18+ versions just look weird. The new ones in armour are much better.
War zone, would you mind heading over to the AvP thread and explaining to those of us who are still waiting for wave 1 why you seem to spend all your time talking about wave 2 and 3?
Joyboozer wrote: War zone, would you mind heading over to the AvP thread and explaining to those of us who are still waiting for wave 1 why you seem to spend all your time talking about wave 2 and 3?
I can understand your frustration with a kickstarter that is struggling to fulfill it's promises, but this thread is mess enough without bringing up the gak show that is the AvP...I don't even know what the word would be to describe that. So let's leave that for that thread, and this for this thread.
Joyboozer wrote: War zone, would you mind heading over to the AvP thread and explaining to those of us who are still waiting for wave 1 why you seem to spend all your time talking about wave 2 and 3?
Hi there, the official update has gone via KS and FB. 505 to go. thanks.
Now, back on the topic, we are working on 2nd Heroine for armoured version of the board game (I need to stop calling it pg13 really). What is dakkadakka take on it?
Thats not really armoured so much as covered.
I was looking for plates that would support the upper armour assembly. This has all the same mechanical issues as the previous version but without feminine thighs.
ArbitorIan wrote: Just thought I'd point out that 'feedback' has been coming in from other sources, not just Dakkadakka. It seems like the feelings expressed here are the same being expressed elsewhere.
Looks like Prodos must've deleted that, comes back as no longer available.
Yes, very probably. The point was that exactly the same criticisms of the models, the nakedness, the sexualisation was happening there. If anything, moreso, with even less people defending Prodos and more people annoyed by the models.
So im not sure about why Dakka is such a bad place for companies to post - it seems Facebook gets them just as much flakk...
ArbitorIan wrote: Just thought I'd point out that 'feedback' has been coming in from other sources, not just Dakkadakka. It seems like the feelings expressed here are the same being expressed elsewhere.
Looks like Prodos must've deleted that, comes back as no longer available.
Yes, very probably. The point was that exactly the same criticisms of the models, the nakedness, the sexualisation was happening there. If anything, moreso, with even less people defending Prodos and more people annoyed by the models.
So im not sure about why Dakka is such a bad place for companies to post - it seems Facebook gets them just as much flakk...
It's because here they have no control over censorship. The only other companies that don't have at least a small presence here are ones that have their own dedicated forums or GW style companies that just do not interaxt. Even Paladium has white knights stationed here and they are the most guarded/moderated company i think i've seen.
Ruglud wrote: Hilarious thread and good to know we Dakka users have a special place in the industries heart
I do like the previewed riderless bike though, would like to see a close-up of that...
I've seen other forums refer to dakka dakka as a "pit of vile and repungant maggots" Warseer I think . And one of the nice folks on the reaper forums says he avoids this place cause its too toxic. We do have something of a reputation apparently.
Is there gonna be a Space marine equivalent for all the models...a chaplain, a captain a ....heavy weapon squad?
Is there gonna be a possible Space marine equivalent for all the models...a chaplain, a captain a ....heavy weapon squad?
Hi there yes, the main pack contains a rocket launcher, as for more models with a similar approach to other company miniatures, here are some concepts we have based SC on, made by a well know artist, that will be an expansion to the SC line in both, 18+ and armoured form. Thanks
please note: all you see here is just in a concept form, we will however have to do a round with our legal advisor to make sure we are not too close to some other companies IPs. Thanks
please note: all you see here is just in a concept form, we will however have to do a round with our legal advisor to make sure we are not too close to some other companies IPs. Thanks
The more I look at the heavy leg armor the less I like it. The first pic of the Unarmored lady with Bolter er and knife looks pretty good (that spine curve tho).
But I don't have any skin in the game ( har har) as I'm just going to follow the line progress as a casual observer while I hope for official SoB plastics.
Or learn to sculpt my own. Which might be faster...
rayphoton wrote: Well despite the insane level of heat your soon to get. I like em
Thanks
Ray
Thanks, as I said we will have 2 versions of each model anyway.
and there is plenty of that to hate on internet :
Are you even thinking about what you post at this point? Posting memes and uncredited artwork from deviantart to get a rise out of your critics dosen't look all that professional, and dosen't portray prodos in the best light. It kinda comes across as immature. Could you Imagen your competitors like Privateer press or Mantic Games doing something like that? I know you are most likely not nearly as big as them, But are you telling me you are not interested in trying to work towards being that well established and respected?
When people criticise and make fun of the huge pauldron aesthetic of Warmachine, did they start posting on message boards getting into arguments with people? No. They just trusted that their were enough people who did like the aesthetic or that the rules of their game were written so well people would over look this design choice to play a realy good game. They had confidence in their product.
rayphoton wrote: Well despite the insane level of heat your soon to get.
Unlikely. The mods made it pretty clear that they have protected status.
I won't comment on the cheesecake factor from either a fluff standpoint nor in terms of taste. This sort of thing has a market so any opinions on my part are irrelevant.
Instead I'll focus on stylistic elements. The shield bearer isn't bad but the blocky armor style isn't super appealing. I assume that there are technological limitations to the sculpting process, but the proportions and aesthetics of the original SOB should be emulated not abandoned imho. If that happened and the models weren't tasteless I'd buy a metric ton of them (assuming the cost was reasonable and the provider reliable/trustworthy).
rayphoton wrote: Well despite the insane level of heat your soon to get.
Unlikely. The mods made it pretty clear that they have protected status.
Protected how exactly? I still don't like the standard Crusaders, but I'm not going to keep harping on them myself. The newer demons look okay, I just don't understand why a she-demon would bother covering up with a thin strip of cloth.
She is going to take a face full of ejected brass.
But, forcefield!
...then why would she need a shield...
The new concept stuff is once again falling into "demons pretty good, underboob space ladies pretty terrible", although they're not as good as the other demon stuff. Well, except for the bug walker, I actually really like that one, credit where credit is due. Might be my favorite model with this release, which isn't exactly a high bar, but I honestly would put that one in some sort of non-specific evil space force.
What's going on with the Not-Devastator Lady's spine? That looks like a seriously uncomfortable way to hold a heavy weapon. She'd better hope nobody slams a door too hard, or that giant backpack's going to overbalance her.
Neat. I like both the new demons and am looking forward to seeing future releases. I'll ask again, too, will the game be shown during the BoW interview?
She is going to take a face full of ejected brass.
But, forcefield!
...then why would she need a shield...
To brace her bolter!
Obviously i'm running risk of violating the mod's restriction of purely sarcastic posts - so please allow me to contribute something substantial:
I really dig that model with the shield. Issues like brass ejection in a "realistic" game would be real - that's some egregious violation of weapon discipline.
But it's based off 40K grim dark goofiness, and the meets the one criteria i care most about - she looks cool.
I may go back on my earlier post and buy a couple minis like this - and the bikes, i totally forgot about the bikes - just because i dig it.
She is going to take a face full of ejected brass.
But, forcefield!
...then why would she need a shield...
To brace her bolter!
Obviously i'm running risk of violating the mod's restriction of purely sarcastic posts - so please allow me to contribute something substantial:
I really dig that model with the shield. Issues like brass ejection in a "realistic" game would be real - that's some egregious violation of weapon discipline.
But it's based off 40K grim dark goofiness, and the meets the one criteria i care most about - she looks cool.
I may go back on my earlier post and buy a couple minis like this - and the bikes, i totally forgot about the bikes - just because i dig it.
There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more female models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of the female form then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to.
Plz please please please make shoulderpads optional and not part of the arm. Also please please please make blank shoulderpads for us who likes to customize our minis.
MadCowCrazy wrote: There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more female models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of the female form then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to.
Plz please please please make shoulderpads optional and not part of the arm. Also please please please make blank shoulderpads for us who likes to customize our minis.
Hi there, the shoulder-pads are optional (in non- board game release), board game are 1 piece models, assembled, thanks.
There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more female models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of the female form then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to.
So shut up and prodos take my money!
Plz please please please make shoulderpads optional and not part of the arm. Also please please please make blank shoulderpads for us who likes to customize our minis.
There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more models with shoulderpads on the market. If you don't like them, don't buy them. If you don't like the way the shoulderpad was designed, then pay a sculptor to make them blank so you can customize them the way you want to.
I really dig that model with the shield. Issues like brass ejection in a "realistic" game would be real - that's some egregious violation of weapon discipline.
But it's based off 40K grim dark goofiness, and the meets the one criteria i care most about - she looks cool.
I may go back on my earlier post and buy a couple minis like this - and the bikes, i totally forgot about the bikes - just because i dig it.
I honestly think she'd look cooler with...I don't know, a power spear or something. Ooh! Or a shotgun!
You know, she could make a pretty decent ornate Arbites if she had a suitable helmet.
But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
I've seen this design in a few animes before, it all looks very uncomfortable and wobbly, but rule of cool right?
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
"There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more Combat Heels models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of combat heels then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to."
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
I've seen this design in a few animes before, it all looks very uncomfortable and wobbly, but rule of cool right?
I suppose there's a particular subset of folks who prefer more horselike models... Different strokes and all that.
Necros wrote: The girls have Ancient Chinese Feets, they're supposed to be small.
If by Ancient you mean 1947-1957, and the fact that last factory in china that made shoes for women with "lotus feet" was closed down in 1999.
=/
no offense homie but this is more OT than the gakstorm of comparing miniatures from different companies. At least that was relevant to the discussion of the sculpts in the game, if not to the game itself.
Hey Prodos games, if you guys made an option to buy them in metal (I know it would be more expensive), I would rock this game so hard. The uparmored versions look great for the standard power armor ladies. And the female demons in armor look fantastic.
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
"There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more Combat Heels models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of combat heels then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to."
'There will always be White Knights, defending the indefensible. But people can go to any of a dozen companies and buy what they want, without the stupid power heels and underboob'.
Sorry, Lockark - but people have a reason to complain, and have plenty of other options.
It is better to light a single candle and to curse the darkness.
The Auld Grump - stupid darkness, making me light a candle....
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
"There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more Combat Heels models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of combat heels then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to."
'There will always be White Knights, defending the indefensible. But people can go to any of a dozen companies and buy what they want, without the stupid power heels and underboob'.
Sorry, Lockark - but people have a reason to complain, and have plenty of other options.
It is better to light a single candle and to curse the darkness.
The Auld Grump - stupid darkness, making me light a candle....
I don't mean to speak for Lockark, but I'm fairly sure they intended it to be tongue in cheek. Also a parody of a post from the previous page.
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
"There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more Combat Heels models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of combat heels then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to."
'There will always be White Knights, defending the indefensible. But people can go to any of a dozen companies and buy what they want, without the stupid power heels and underboob'.
Sorry, Lockark - but people have a reason to complain, and have plenty of other options.
It is better to light a single candle and to curse the darkness.
The Auld Grump - stupid darkness, making me light a candle....
I was being sarcastic, I guess I figured most people would of gotten that since I've been prety clear most this threat I think these mini's look bad. lol =P
I was indeed parodying Crazy Cow's Silly Argument from the page before.
MadCowCrazy wrote: There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more female models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of the female form then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to.
Plz please please please make shoulderpads optional and not part of the arm. Also please please please make blank shoulderpads for us who likes to customize our minis.
We're not allowed to complain about how bad the models look because we're not making them. Seems like sound logic.
This isn't really my genre, but imo that's pretty sweet! Especially compared to the original concepts, I much prefer the up-armored version. If you're able to offer both, it would be interesting to see which is more popular (conventional wisdom has been that it's only the revealing models, but with that market being so over-saturated in comparison to armored females, I'm not sure if it's the case here!).
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
"There will always be haters, people should just shut up and appreciate there being some more Combat Heels models on the market. If you don't like them don't buy them.
If you don't like the aesthetic of combat heels then pay a sculptor to make them look the way you want them to."
'There will always be White Knights, defending the indefensible. But people can go to any of a dozen companies and buy what they want, without the stupid power heels and underboob'.
Sorry, Lockark - but people have a reason to complain, and have plenty of other options.
It is better to light a single candle and to curse the darkness.
The Auld Grump - stupid darkness, making me light a candle....
I don't mean to speak for Lockark, but I'm fairly sure they intended it to be tongue in cheek. Also a parody of a post from the previous page.
Actually, I had picked up on that, and was replying in kind. (Sort of - more along the lines of the routines that old Vaudeville comedians used to have - call an response on a theme, rather than planned.)
I was kind of expecting him to reply in character.
Don't mind the gangsta pose in this one, the only complaint is that the legs look a little short? They should be longer than the upper body
PS will there a bundle for those who want to have both versions? instead of buying the adult version and the kiddie version separately?
Albertorius wrote: You'll be needing coherent male sculpts for it fo actually feel like an integrated force. How about something like this:
Too tame, maybe? Guess it needs legs/arms protection, though.
To be consistent with the rest of the range presented here, I believe they'd have to modify the original design from a diaper to a thong in the back. I believe the aerodynamics of that are better for riding the inevitable dirt bike motorcycles. I also believe they'll have to add much more additional padding along the front of the diaper so that the level of beefcake matches the previously presented cheescake.
This all assumes men even fight, aren't considered second class citizens and are on the battlefield. I would probably imagine the society much like Paradise Island in DC, Wonder Woman's main land of Themyscira where women rule, men don't exist. Men are just needed for genetic materials and stock afterall. ^_^
Dark Severance wrote: This all assumes men even fight, aren't considered second class citizens and are on the battlefield. I would probably imagine the society much like Paradise Island in DC, Wonder Woman's main land of Themyscira where women rule, men don't exist. Men are just needed for genetic materials and stock afterall. ^_^
I dig that.
However, i don't think anyone should have to justify why a fantasy wargame conflict is fought entirely by women any more than why one (well, nearly all on the market) are fought entirely by men. No one gives the latter a 2nd thought. It's all make believe.
If a game producer wants their make believe to be an 18+ Heavy Metal/FAKK 2000 version of fantasy conflict, why should he/she/they be shouted down? Why judge the people who do want to buy the game and paint the minis infantile/juvenile/worse? Just vote with your wallet.
I'll pick up a handful of the armored ones if i like the final product. I'll very likely pick up the bike set. Doing so encourages Prodos to make more of those. Nothing good will come of wailing and gnashing of teeth about a product i'm not going to buy.
Vrex wrote: However, i don't think anyone should have to justify why a fantasy wargame conflict is fought entirely by women any more than why one (well, nearly all on the market) are fought entirely by men. No one gives the latter a 2nd thought.
Isn't that sexism though? Just because other markets are fought almost entirely by men, doesn't mean there couldn't exist where societies are entirely fought by women. Just the fact that no one gives the latter a 2nd thought, but somehow the other-way around isn't plausible... even though it is all make believe.
I never said these should be shot down or people who buy them should be judged. I will probably pick up a few of both armored and unarmored, although I will be doing black suits anime style instead of skin. Anyone that wants to paint skin is fine with me. I don't look at them and think they someone is worse off or some closest pervert.
I do have an issue with a couple of the sculpts though because I don't agree with the designs, not that they have breasts. I have no issue creating a plausible background and story to support it. The sculpts seem like a bad design but that may just be because of the paint jobs as some of the resin only seem fine.
I always imagined the background being something like:
Spoiler:
On the planet Themiscrya the women had grown tired of the evil ways of mankind, separating themselves to where they could practice a peaceful way of life and cultivate their minds. The world is controlled and ran by the women, men existing as second class citizens that are only present for genetic stock. There are two factions created in a caste society composed of two factions the aristocracy and the warriors. The aristocracy are those in the higher tiers of society who control and forge the direction the Empire takes.
They knew they had to protect themselves and developed a the warriors system which would genetically breed the perfect warrior. The warriors were created in the image of the aristocracy who control the planet. They aren't second class citizens but they don't hold the rank that the aristocracy hold. Most nobles are born into the aristocracy although on some occasions warriors that have exemplified themselves for the Empire can be raised in ranks.
Over the years the sludge, bad genetic material and other had to be disposed of. Corporations looking to increase their profit margins utilized inadequate disposal methods, often taking shortcuts. The demons harvested this sludge and utilized it creating their own abominations. Being rejected they are fighting for their own survival against the Empire.
Vrex wrote: However, i don't think anyone should have to justify why a fantasy wargame conflict is fought entirely by women any more than why one (well, nearly all on the market) are fought entirely by men. No one gives the latter a 2nd thought.
On the planet Themiscrya the women had grown tired of the evil ways of mankind, separating themselves to where they could practice a peaceful way of life and cultivate their minds. The world is controlled and ran by the women, men existing as second class citizens that are only present for genetic stock.
Vrex wrote: However, i don't think anyone should have to justify why a fantasy wargame conflict is fought entirely by women any more than why one (well, nearly all on the market) are fought entirely by men. No one gives the latter a 2nd thought.
Isn't that sexism though? ...
no, no, I'm agreeing with you. You should *not* have to justify an all female conflict any more than you should have to justify an all male.
My post replied initially to your's with "i dig it", then i did a 90 degree turn without signaling first.
After that I was throwing out general-response-thoughts about the tone of many of the other posters in general. Sorry for the confusion.
I'm way under-caffeinated right now and blame my slow-firing brain.
And i like your background fluff. Commission Patrick Keith and Tom Mason to sculpt it and i'm in.
=]
Legitimate question... why? I mean why is it perfectly acceptable to believe that a society is ran by men, men are the soldiers that make up the army and women aren't there for whatever reasons. The premise is that there is prejudice, discrimination against women. However if it is the reverse where society is ran by women, women make up the soldiers in the army and men aren't there for whatever reasons... that isn't considered prejudice, discrimination against men?
Actually never mind. I think I misunderstood what was being said which is why it isn't considered that. I took it a different direction than what the poster was meaning.
It was actually designed to be honestly, although technically I didn't write it. DC Comics created the initial part of it.
Dark Severance wrote: After that I was throwing out general-response-thoughts about the tone of many of the other posters in general. Sorry for the confusion.
To be consistent with the rest of the range presented here, I believe they'd have to modify the original design from a diaper to a thong in the back. I believe the aerodynamics of that are better for riding the inevitable dirt bike motorcycles. I also believe they'll have to add much more additional padding along the front of the diaper so that the level of beefcake matches the previously presented cheescake.
Sinful Hero wrote: But...but... They don't even look similar to real heels! There's no support for the heel itself-it all goes to her toes! Or maybe they're supposed to be...Power Heels?
They make her legs look more horse than woman's.
I've seen this design in a few animes before, it all looks very uncomfortable and wobbly, but rule of cool right?
Oddly, I think this kind of design is more mainstream then... well, then I can explain. I base that on their appearance in a Taylor Swift video (don't judge me);
In turn those seem to have found plenty of inspiration in the late 1980's anime Bubblegum Crisis;
Nothing good will come of wailing and gnashing of teeth about a product i'm not going to buy. I'll shrug and simply support what i like.
There's a lot of similar sentiments along the lines of 'if you don't like it, don't buy it', 'vote with your wallet' etc.
All those are valid, and if people don't like the models, not buying them will certainly send a message.
However, what is much more useful is to state WHY you're not buying it. It's more useful to the people making the models, it's more useful to other potential manufacturers. That's why a lot of people are commenting negatively (and vocally) about this. If the reason people don't want to buy the models is because they find them insulting, or sexist, or that they feel they portray wargaming in a negative light, they should absolutely come on here and say that. And THEN not buy them!
That is assuming the reason people state is the real reason.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
*laugh* No.
I guarantee that there are than a few people who do that. I have a few of those friends.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
Considering how much Kingdom Death plastic and resin(and not to mention my PVC statues and art related things) I have, it'd be hypocritical of me to say I don't like them because "I don't want to look like a perv". I've gone way past that territory, and I've come to accept it.
I don't fancy the models because I don't agree with a few of the design choices, such as thin waists with heavy armor, lack of heels/toes, and of course the bikini bashers("round orbs"). They just don't trip my trigger, I'm not a fan of digital renders in general, and the paint jobs were lacking on a few of the first previews(not to mention digital). I believe I've gone over a few others during the course of the thread.
We all do it to some level. How deep do you go when you are asked why you like something? There are thousands of studies on how lighting, colour, surrounding,time of day and other things affect how favourable our opinion of something is.
Realisticly very few people are going to post here that they like the boobinators since they subconsciously remind them of the cover of their first razz mag or don't like them since they remind them of the stripper you cheated with that broke up your second marriage.
Badly sculpted? Sexist? I'd rather plant my flag in that camp.
This product could quite easily generate a huge amount of negative forum posts but still be the best seller for prodos. Look at election polls to see this in effect.
People like to be able to give a simple reason for liking or disliking something but never forget there is always more to it.
dragqueeninspace wrote: We all do it to some level. How deep do you go when you are asked why you like something? There are thousands of studies on how lighting, colour, surrounding,time of day and other things affect how favourable our opinion of something is.
Realisticly very few people are going to post here that they like the boobinators since they subconsciously remind them of the cover of their first razz mag or don't like them since they remind them of the stripper you cheated with that broke up your second marriage.
Badly sculpted? Sexist? I'd rather plant my flag in that camp.
This product could quite easily generate a huge amount of negative forum posts but still be the best seller for prodos. Look at election polls to see this in effect.
People like to be able to give a simple reason for liking or disliking something but never forget there is always more to it.
None of this make any sense in the context of this thread. Nobody is forcing anyone to reply at all, so none of those reasons apply.
If I liked this sexist crap but didn't want to look like a perv I'd just not reply? Why on Earth would I actively reply with the opposite of my own opinion?
Your reasoning might hold 'some' water if this was a live interview and we were questioning people but to try and pass off the 'overwhelmingly' bad response to this nonsense as anything other than people's actual feelings is ... I'll be polite and say 'not backed up by anything resembling evidence'.
As to whether or not the 'silent majority' is incredibly in favour of this, that was partly why I mocked them for removing their live sales. It was quite clear that it wasn't as popular as they claimed because you could see how much they sold after their announcement. As the only evidence we have is the combination of public response and those early sales figures I'm more than comfortable in saying that this is a) not that popular but b) still more popular than I'd like to not be embarrassed by my hobby..
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
Oh, I totally agree. "I think they look sexist" could easily be "I think they look sexist, which may be fine for other people, but I don't like people thinking wargaming is sexist, because I'm a wargamer"
But I think it would be disingenuous to assume that everyone posting that they consider the models to be sexist is ACTUALLY just trying to look superior to others. They might just, you know, think the models are sexist.
Except it is relevant since it was claimed that posting why you don't buy something is important, I'm pointing out that this information is inherently untrustworthy.
People like to pour scorn on things and this is a GREAT opportunity. Plenty of people post just to tell nobody in particular what they think about something that doesn't matter.
Frankly as a competing interest your statements should be given very little weight. Stiring gak here actively benefits you.
@Arbitorlan
I never claimed everyone who thinks they are sexist is lying or delusional but some are. My point is likes and dislikes are complex and their articulation is rarely straightforward. The reliability of forum posts for gauging peoples true feelings is low, particularly on a subject like this.
dragqueeninspace wrote: Except it is relevant since it was claimed that posting why you don't buy something is important, I'm pointing out that this information is inherently untrustworthy.
People like to pour scorn on things and this is a GREAT opportunity. Plenty of people post just to tell nobody in particular what they think about something that doesn't matter.
Frankly as a competing interest your statements should be given very little weight. Stiring gak here actively benefits you..
I can't tell which of those green things is the rolly eyes one so just assume I did it here.
Once again, not all miniature companies are 'competing interests'.
Although I will admit to the tangential fact that this kind of sexist dog gak going away benefits the hobby as a whole, which include me and the company I work for.
But it is a nice attempt to try and belittle the views of the scornful, kudos on having a decent stab at it.
dragqueeninspace wrote: Except it is relevant since it was claimed that posting why you don't buy something is important, I'm pointing out that this information is inherently untrustworthy.
People like to pour scorn on things and this is a GREAT opportunity. Plenty of people post just to tell nobody in particular what they think about something that doesn't matter.
Frankly as a competing interest your statements should be given very little weight. Stiring gak here actively benefits you..
I can't tell which of those green things is the rolly eyes one so just assume I did it here.
Once again, not all miniature companies are 'competing interests'.
Although I will admit to the tangential fact that this kind of sexist dogshit going away benefits the hobby as a whole, which include me and the company I work for.
But it is a nice attempt to try and belittle the views of the scornful, kudos on having a decent stab at it.
You're really not doing yourself or your company any favors.
dragqueeninspace wrote: Except it is relevant since it was claimed that posting why you don't buy something is important, I'm pointing out that this information is inherently untrustworthy.
People like to pour scorn on things and this is a GREAT opportunity. Plenty of people post just to tell nobody in particular what they think about something that doesn't matter.
Frankly as a competing interest your statements should be given very little weight. Stiring gak here actively benefits you..
I can't tell which of those green things is the rolly eyes one so just assume I did it here.
Once again, not all miniature companies are 'competing interests'.
Although I will admit to the tangential fact that this kind of sexist dogshit going away benefits the hobby as a whole, which include me and the company I work for.
But it is a nice attempt to try and belittle the views of the scornful, kudos on having a decent stab at it.
You're really not doing yourself or your company any favors.
Well I'll just have to live with your disapproval.
dragqueeninspace wrote: Except it is relevant since it was claimed that posting why you don't buy something is important, I'm pointing out that this information is inherently untrustworthy.
People like to pour scorn on things and this is a GREAT opportunity. Plenty of people post just to tell nobody in particular what they think about something that doesn't matter.
Frankly as a competing interest your statements should be given very little weight. Stiring gak here actively benefits you..
I can't tell which of those green things is the rolly eyes one so just assume I did it here.
Once again, not all miniature companies are 'competing interests'.
Although I will admit to the tangential fact that this kind of sexist dogshit going away benefits the hobby as a whole, which include me and the company I work for.
But it is a nice attempt to try and belittle the views of the scornful, kudos on having a decent stab at it.
You're really not doing yourself or your company any favors.
Well I'll just have to live with your disapproval.
I have to be honest, he's probably not the only one.
Nothing wrong at all with having an opinion and posting about it, but when it's such a strong one (calling work of someone else in the trade dog gak) you're necessarily going to get some people getting turned away from the company that you work for.
It's rarely a good idea to post on a public forum, using the name of the company you work for and attacking the work of another company. That sort of stuff will get you fired from most companies because it reflects poorly on your professionalism.
If you have such opinions of another company, that's fine, it's usually smarter to post anonymously though.
I'm actually more likely to put my money toward a company that has staff who stand against the blatant nonsense of others.
I also very much doubt the majority of people tutting and admonishing Arty were lining his tills to begin with.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's rarely a good idea to post on a public forum, using the name of the company you work for and attacking the work of another company. That sort of stuff will get you fired from most companies because it reflects poorly on your professionalism.
If you have such opinions of another company, that's fine, it's usually smarter to post anonymously though.
I don't believe in that, that's pretty much sockpuppeting. I'm well aware that any views I put forward impact on the company I work for which is why I rarely bother to speak up unless I feel it is more than warranted, this time I believe it was. I absolutely hate this kind of sexist nonsense being so noticeable in the industry, I think it sets the hobby back years and I've fought (in my own small way) all my working life to not have that be the case. To have a company this size put out something that would have embarrassed me 25 yrs ago is just ... disheartening.
If some people think that's worth holding against my company then so be it, some things are worth it.
This thread has been very interesting to watch as it has unfolded, and I have yet to contribute, so here comes yet another opinion on the issues that have been raised...
On a personal level, I am not a fan of the models. I enjoy painting toy soldiers. I don't enjoy painting toy boobs for the sake of boobs. I don't want models that are intended to arouse anyone, that's not what I want from my hobby. That is irrelevant though as it is only a personal opinion.
Objectively though, I can't decide what I think. If there is a demand for this product, and it isn't illegal, I theoretically don't have an issue with someone supplying it. I also don't have an issue (in theory) with the impractical armour, I suppose, as it's fantasy, I can see how that aesthetic might fulfil some people's idea of fantasy. It might not be my taste, but it might be someone else's. I don't have an issue with the representation of the female body any more than I do with how the male body is portrayed in the hobby (most of us look more like blightkings than Reavers).
On the other hand, it is already a hobby that struggles to get social acceptance, and products like this only contribute to the negative stereotype that already exists. I wouldn't want anyone associating (or judging) me and my hobby with products like this because they are in the same market place. I think others that have posted negatively in the thread might share this concern. However, that is not a reason not to produce or buy the game, it is just a possible consequence that the hobby community will have to endure.
I think it is regrettable that there is a market for such models (and there are plenty of companies making them, the reaper Sophie with an anus made me think twice about re-entering the hobby), but there clearly is, so I have to accept that, no point complaining.
One more opinion though, two companies having a public argument on the biggest wargaming forum? I think you are both ridiculous and should demonstrate a lot more professionalism, before you loose any more prospective customers. Having watched how you conduct yourselves, I wouldn't spend a penny with either of you, whatever you produce.
Prodos have been very restraint and with how they have been treated here I wouldn't be surprised if they posted here ever again, it's this Artemis Black fellow [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS] and the very fact he has been allowed to carry on the way he has been speaks volumes about this forum. For shame Dakka and Mods for shame.
Product criticism is part of....producing things. Anyone that produces sub par garbage gets called out for it, that's Dakka.
Glad you're here to White Knight for them though, poor little company needs protection from all these potential clients expressing their opinions.
overtyrant wrote: Prodos have been very restraint and with how they have been treated here I wouldn't be surprised if they posted here ever again, it's this Artemis Black fellow [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS] and the very fact he has been allowed to carry on the way he has been speaks volumes about this forum. For shame Dakka and Mods for shame.
Rule 1 has been mentioned a bunch, and has been followed pretty well. The attacks have been about quality of work, not about people. If you want to exercise your right to vote with your wallet, then do so, both ways. Buy from the one you like and don't buy from the other. I live in America where we have the right to criticize work, but we can also be held accountable for it when we cross the line. Artemis has said his views on the product (I have many of the same feelings about the quality of work, but I am not an artist, so it doesn't hold the weight). I will buy from HFminis because most of their stuff is tasteful or at least has a concept to it, this is just gratuitous for the sake of shock and awe.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
What is wrong wit being a perv? Don't hide behind a mask of acceptance!
Objectively though, I can't decide what I think. If there is a demand for this product, and it isn't illegal, I theoretically don't have an issue with someone supplying it. I also don't have an issue (in theory) with the impractical armour, I suppose, as it's fantasy, I can see how that aesthetic might fulfil some people's idea of fantasy. It might not be my taste, but it might be someone else's. I don't have an issue with the representation of the female body any more than I do with how the male body is portrayed in the hobby (most of us look more like blightkings than Reavers).
Yeah, if it isn't illegal and there is the demand for this then what's the problem? I think they look pretty cool and will definitely purchase some in the near future (when I get paid.)
On the other hand, it is already a hobby that struggles to get social acceptance, and products like this only contribute to the negative stereotype that already exists. I wouldn't want anyone associating (or judging) me and my hobby with products like this because they are in the same market place. I think others that have posted negatively in the thread might share this concern. However, that is not a reason not to produce or buy the game, it is just a possible consequence that the hobby community will have to endure.
I think it is regrettable that there is a market for such models (and there are plenty of companies making them, the reaper Sophie with an anus made me think twice about re-entering the hobby), but there clearly is, so I have to accept that, no point complaining.
I also don't think this matters at all. Social acceptance means nothing at all. Comic books, movies, music, etc all have suffered from bad PR and puritanical groups trying to take them down and have failed. There is very adult content on all those mediums yet it doesn't "bring the medium down." Just because it exists, it doesn't make Space Marines suddenly pornography. If something risqué existing makes you hesitate to enter a fandom then you won't be able to enter any of them. There is a market for a lot of stuff out there, taking advantage of it is what makes capitalism work. (as long as it's legal )
One more opinion though, two companies having a public argument on the biggest wargaming forum? I think you are both ridiculous and should demonstrate a lot more professionalism, before you loose any more prospective customers. Having watched how you conduct yourselves, I wouldn't spend a penny with either of you, whatever you produce.
plastictrees wrote: Product criticism is part of....producing things. Anyone that produces sub par garbage gets called out for it, that's Dakka.
Glad you're here to White Knight for them though, poor little company needs protection from all these potential clients expressing their opinions.
thank goodness we have so many authorities here to tell us what is garbage. It doesn't sound like he's being a white knight but rather someone who is just tired of listening to page after page of the same endless crap over and over. Say your piece and call it a day. The social commentary gets old after awhile.
Maybe we could move some of the tangential discussions of sexism and professionalism into another more appropriate thread in Dakka Discussions.
I'm not trying to silence anyone but, honestly, those aren't issues that are going to be hashed out here and only seem to inflame posters and derail the topic.
overtyrant wrote: Prodos have been very restraint and with how they have been treated here I wouldn't be surprised if they posted here ever again, it's this Artemis Black fellow [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS] and the very fact he has been allowed to carry on the way he has been speaks volumes about this forum. For shame Dakka and Mods for shame.
Don't kid yourself, Chief. Prodos has received a gracious ovation, compared to how they treat their consumers. As for Artemis, he's been more then reasonable, in light on the point to target of pimping a game of superpower armor, with tits.
I'm honestly interested if Prodos will even pull it off. I have no faith that they will do so, and in light of the subject, they have done this same one trick pony trick, ... three times, now. show you some nifty 3d graphics of what they ... intend. to do.. and then come up with odd excuses as to why they can't produce. Kickstarter is funny like that , in that they actually let that excuse slide.
On my end, hey... nice pictures... do you have any miniatures, done yet?
Where the rubber hits the raod, we are talking miniatures, here. from a company that has still yet to deliver on two game systems, so far, and now wants to pimp out another....
Albertorius wrote: You'll be needing coherent male sculpts for it fo actually feel like an integrated force. How about something like this:
Spoiler:
Too tame, maybe? Guess it needs legs/arms protection, though.
To be consistent with the rest of the range presented here, I believe they'd have to modify the original design from a diaper to a thong in the back. I believe the aerodynamics of that are better for riding the inevitable dirt bike motorcycles. I also believe they'll have to add much more additional padding along the front of the diaper so that the level of beefcake matches the previously presented cheescake.
Not to be persnickety, but when I see comments like this (of the form "if only the had male figures in such a scandalous state of undress..."), I can't help but think... "where have you guys been?"
Not to say that Zardoz is unknown. But one scarcely needs to go back to 1974 to find examples of action heroes with little in the way of clothes (fun fact, Sean Connery's costar in Zardoz? Best Lead Actress Oscar Nominee Charlotte Rampling.)
How about 1982 and a little movie staring a little known foreign actor? Probably a little art house pic though, I think the guy was named... Arnold Strong.
Spoiler:
Obviously that's a little tongue in cheek, but I can't say how often I've recently seen people advance this counterfactual argument that people would simply be scandalized if males were as scantily clad as females are in games/media of various sorts.
The simple reality is that there is no shortage of male characters, prominently featured, in gaming, films, etc, that are (at best) half-dressed. This really struck me when I was arguing about a recent change in World of Warcraft, and I pointed out that the final boss of the most recent expansion (Warlords of Draenor) is... basically wearing a spiked jock-strap. Behold, Archimonde in his (lack of) finery;
Spoiler:
Archimonde is successor to another shirtless dude as end boss, Garrosh (end boss of Mists of Pandaria);
Spoiler:
Yes, he is in fact wearing a pair of tusks as a shirt. Prior to Garrosh there was a dragon made of lava and the Lich King, the only example of a sensibly dressed male final boss of any expansion in WoW's history. The boss of the first expansion being either Illidan, a shirtless, tattooed elf/demon/emo hybrid (or Kil'Jaden, who is basically shopping at the same store as Archimonde above);
Spoiler:
Of course it's not just WoW: one of the most popular and recognizable figures from gaming in the last decade is Kratos, a man who is basically wearing a towel and an an angry disposition.
Spoiler:
This brings me back to what I thought was the real point of this thread: it's not about the nudity, it's about the art just not looking right. I mean look above at the picture of Archimonde: he's basically wearing exactly what the (not) Obliterators are wearing, it's just that it doesn't work aesthetically. Though the Oblits are actually growing on me, to be fair.
plastictrees wrote: Product criticism is part of....producing things. Anyone that produces sub par garbage gets called out for it, that's Dakka.
Glad you're here to White Knight for them though, poor little company needs protection from all these potential clients expressing their opinions.
Dont get me wrong I am definitely not a fan of the 18+ range and of course stating your opinion is is expected but then there is just being plain rude, there us this thing called constructive criticism.
overtyrant wrote: Prodos have been very restraint and with how they have been treated here I wouldn't be surprised if they posted here ever again, it's this Artemis Black fellow [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS] and the very fact he has been allowed to carry on the way he has been speaks volumes about this forum. For shame Dakka and Mods for shame.
Rule 1 has been mentioned a bunch, and has been followed pretty well. The attacks have been about quality of work, not about people. If you want to exercise your right to vote with your wallet, then do so, both ways. Buy from the one you like and don't buy from the other. I live in America where we have the right to criticize work, but we can also be held accountable for it when we cross the line. Artemis has said his views on the product (I have many of the same feelings about the quality of work, but I am not an artist, so it doesn't hold the weight). I will buy from HFminis because most of their stuff is tasteful or at least has a concept to it, this is just gratuitous for the sake of shock and awe.
Stating your criticism is perfectly fine and I to live in the free world were such a thing is allowed and expected but he was beìng plain rude and going on like a broken record. There was no constructive criticism from him whatsoever, just attacks against Prodos. Could of just stated his opinion and voted with his wallet and not go on and on and on, in fact most of this thread could've been handled like it but has been left to go unchecked.
Albertorius wrote: You'll be needing coherent male sculpts for it fo actually feel like an integrated force. How about something like this:
Spoiler:
Too tame, maybe? Guess it needs legs/arms protection, though.
To be consistent with the rest of the range presented here, I believe they'd have to modify the original design from a diaper to a thong in the back. I believe the aerodynamics of that are better for riding the inevitable dirt bike motorcycles. I also believe they'll have to add much more additional padding along the front of the diaper so that the level of beefcake matches the previously presented cheescake.
Not to be persnickety, but when I see comments like this (of the form "if only the had male figures in such a scandalous state of undress..."), I can't help but think... "where have you guys been?"
Not to say that Zardoz is unknown. But one scarcely needs to go back to 1974 to find examples of action heroes with little in the way of clothes (fun fact, Sean Connery's costar in Zardoz? Best Lead Actress Oscar Nominee Charlotte Rampling.)
This is a classic argument that I will argue against with an equally classic one: when females are portrayed with little clothing, they are almost always meant to appeal to the heterosexual male. When males are portrayed with little clothing, they are almost always meant to appeal to... the heterosexual male. Not as a sex object, but as an aspirational power fantasy. Obviously that hilarious Sean Connery is an exception (probably made for comedic effect more than anything? I haven't seen the movie), but generally this holds true. The WoW characters and Kratos are a perfect example; they are made to look awesome, not sexy. So when you say "men are often portrayed without clothes as well" you are strictly correct, but that portrayal is not comparable.
overtyrant wrote: Prodos have been very restraint and with how they have been treated here I wouldn't be surprised if they posted here ever again, it's this Artemis Black fellow [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS] and the very fact he has been allowed to carry on the way he has been speaks volumes about this forum. For shame Dakka and Mods for shame.
Don't kid yourself, Chief. Prodos has received a gracious ovation, compared to how they treat their consumers. As for Artemis, he's been more then reasonable, in light on the point to target of pimping a game of superpower armor, with tits
Quite reasonable? So I could come over to your gaf, take a leak all over you walls, dump in your bed and you will say 'thats all right it's reasonable'.
I'm not a fan of these miniatures and I feel Prodos can do a lot better but to state over and over again that your product is gak and have nothing constructive to say is just plain rude, if you feel that way state your opinion, vote with your wallet and then leave. Or add a constructive argument.
Reaper is known for their nude models, if nothing else they are the company who publicly said that when they make a model with a nude version, a scantly clad and a full clothed version they numbers they sell are in this order from more to less.
And you know what, that is ok, they provide things the market wants and they do not make a fuss when others do the same.
I do not care for the product been offered by Prodos here, but since it has been mentioned again, Prodos has shown physical models, multiple times some a few pages ago too, so accusing them for showing renders is false, also this is not a kickstarter.
Now for me Artemis behavior is more than offensive Calling another business a liar and demanding proof of sales numbers to back a statement is to me at least unheard of and his attacks on the "tastefulness" (subjective) of the product and the quality of the product (subjective?) are questionable since his company produces the same thing essentially, scantly clad or nude male and female figures in sexualised poses and illogical attire for the task at hand.
Also a company that creates "not (name of not their IP character)" models should not criticize somebody for acquiring the mane Space Crusade and utilizing it.
On the later subject I will have to agree with the OP and ask is GW completely incompetent on these things and managed to not get it once MB left it slide away?
Why would they? "Space Crusade" wasn't their name, they still have the control of the 40k setting and the visual representation of that, and I don't think they're planning on doing a new version of the boardgame.
I understand it was never their game, they just licensed the IP, but it was a big gateway game for the customer base that made them that big so it has an iconic status on their veteran base (that admittedly they do not accept they exist) so it should be logical to try and keep the product name in the company.
I would like the Terminators if their armors did not have all those very unnecessary holes. Actually, if there was an armored version for all the Sisters of Battle stuff, I would be interested.
As for my opinion on the “sexy” ones, well, everyone that does not know me already can guess it from my sig I guess.
Buzzsaw wrote: Obviously that's a little tongue in cheek, but I can't say how often I've recently seen people advance this counterfactual argument that people would simply be scandalized if males were as scantily clad as females are in games/media of various sorts.
The simple reality is that there is no shortage of male characters, prominently featured, in gaming, films, etc, that are (at best) half-dressed.
Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery. Here is a good rule of thumb for you: if the only “sexualization” you can find about a male character can also be interpreted as showing physical strength, chances are extremely high that it actually is all about showing physical strength. If the camera lingers on his barely-covered butt, then you may have a point. And case in point, people ARE scandalized when there is a male character with the same kind of ridiculous “sexy” clothes in a video game.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I'm actually more likely to put my money toward a company that has staff who stand against the blatant nonsense of others.
I also very much doubt the majority of people tutting and admonishing Arty were lining his tills to begin with.
Actually, I do.. ! They make cracking miniatures, struggle to think of another company that does such a wide range and so many characterful sculpts. Will hit them at Salute this year as I have in previous, although was pointing out that others might not feel the same way.
I personally find all of this (the mini style etc.) amusing rather than disheartening or offensive, although in defense of Arty I haven't spent a professional career sculpting and understand we all feel differently about these things.
Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery. Here is a good rule of thumb for you: if the only “sexualization” you can find about a male character can also be interpreted as showing physical strength, chances are extremely high that it actually is all about showing physical strength. If the camera lingers on his barely-covered butt, then you may have a point. And case in point, people ARE scandalized when there is a male character with the same kind of ridiculous “sexy” clothes in a video game.
Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery. Here is a good rule of thumb for you: if the only “sexualization” you can find about a male character can also be interpreted as showing physical strength, chances are extremely high that it actually is all about showing physical strength. If the camera lingers on his barely-covered butt, then you may have a point. And case in point, people ARE scandalized when there is a male character with the same kind of ridiculous “sexy” clothes in a video game.
I don't know if you agree or disagree with that picture on the right, but it's quite a ridiculous argument. No one would ever argue that sexualization of men aimed at heterosexual females doesn't exist, it obviously does. The difference is how prevalent and mainstream it is. Do you see men like that in every movie, every commercial, every magazine, every ad, like you do women? No, you don't. They are there, but the power fantasy version is MUCH more common, again unlike women. That comic on the other hand is spot on.
How is that sophie different from any other?
Give me a break.
I'm amazed that a thread that was supposed to highlight the releases and status of a game has been allowed to run rampant like this for so long. How is any of this news or rors? Create an I hate prodos thread and keep this one on topic. I guess anything that makes maelstroms edge look better is a win. Oh wait, rule 1 warnings have been tossed in here a few times so everything must be ok.
God forbid I check a news and rumors thread on an upcoming game and not have to read endless pages of crap on how boobs, oh wait again, tits I mean are designed poorly on a stupid miniature space girl.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery. Here is a good rule of thumb for you: if the only “sexualization” you can find about a male character can also be interpreted as showing physical strength, chances are extremely high that it actually is all about showing physical strength. If the camera lingers on his barely-covered butt, then you may have a point. And case in point, people ARE scandalized when there is a male character with the same kind of ridiculous “sexy” clothes in a video game.
Yep, I totally agree.
I guess it's worth saying that portraying all male figures/heroes in popular culture as massive, muscular towers of physical strength is also a sexist, oppressive and demeaning stereotype, rooted in damaging gender roles and causing untold violence in the world. But we're also talking about war-games and games involving tons of combat, so I find the idea of the Generic Male Stereotype a lot less annoying in war-game than I do in a generic tv show, for example.
Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
usernamesareannoying wrote: How is that sophie different from any other?
Give me a break.
I'm amazed that a thread that was supposed to highlight the releases and status of a game has been allowed to run rampant like this for so long. How is any of this news or rors? Create an I hate prodos thread and keep this one on topic. I guess anything that makes maelstroms edge look better is a win. Oh wait, rule 1 warnings have been tossed in here a few times so everything must be ok.
God forbid I check a news and rumors thread on an upcoming game and not have to read endless pages of crap on how boobs, oh wait again, tits I mean are designed poorly on a stupid miniature space girl.
If you ask Warzone specifically for more information they are happy to provide it . I was able to get a bunch of sketches out of them a few pages earlier.
I don't know if you agree or disagree with that picture on the right, but it's quite a ridiculous argument. No one would ever argue that sexualization of men aimed at heterosexual females doesn't exist, it obviously does. The difference is how prevalent and mainstream it is. Do you see men like that in every movie, every commercial, every magazine, every ad, like you do women? No, you don't. They are there, but the power fantasy version is MUCH more common, again unlike women. That comic on the other hand is spot on.
I do see men like that in most movies. With notable exceptions like The Godfather, when we see a fat or unattractive man it's played for laughs.
Hollywood and comics are full of beautiful people. Advertisements are full of beautiful women, as research shows that the best way to sell something to a man is via an attractive woman and the best way to sell something to a woman is via an attractive woman.
Space Marines are absolutely a male power fantasy, but a rather limited one. They are grizzled violent soldiers, but ugly and asexual. Unlike an Arnie movie, they do not 'get the girl' at the end as a reward for their heroism.
I agree that these models are outright sexualisation of women. They're not my cup of beverage right now, but I don't object to their existence, just as I don't object to brooding muscled shirtless guys populating womens fantasy novels and media.
The point the comic tries to make is that women aren't attracted to big beefy guys (demonstrably false) but rather dexterous, flexible handsome men. The best refutation I've seen replaces the feminised Batman at the end with Terry McGuinness, of Batman Beyond who meets most of the criteria.
What I said was :
“Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery.”
Your answer was a bunch of pictures of guys with pretty faces? I am not sure you understand how this work. Maybe you should take a few training sessions.
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=Angel= wrote: The point the comic tries to make is that women aren't attracted to big beefy guys (demonstrably false) but rather dexterous, flexible handsome men.
Damn, way to miss the point. The point that comics makes is that Batman and other super heroes are not designed to be sexually attractive to heterosexual women.
I remember seeing a paint job with a purplish skin tone and wondering what had happened to miniatures whilst I'd been gone.
Oh..I've seen that before. It doesn't really have a "anus" but is still quite nude..so yeah ..
Not for nothing but what a pretty paint job....That's a really well done face.
I'm happy to concede that on the original image I saw it might have been painted on, it was obviously a very talented painter. Those images where removed from the reaper forum because of how gratuitous they were.
@usernamesareannoying It wasn't my intention to single out that particular sophie as better or worse than any others, when I saw the pictures I wasn't aware that sophie was a 'thing,' I just saw a winged woman presenting her anus in 28mm, and my reaction to it was what I was referring to.
I remember seeing a paint job with a purplish skin tone and wondering what had happened to miniatures whilst I'd been gone.
Oh..I've seen that before. It doesn't really have a "anus" but is still quite nude..so yeah ..
Not for nothing but what a pretty paint job....That's a really well done face.
I'm happy to concede that on the original image I saw it might have been painted on, it was obviously a very talented painter. Those images where removed from the reaper forum because of how gratuitous they were.
@usernamesareannoying It wasn't my intention to single out that particular sophie as better or worse than any others, when I saw the pictures I wasn't aware that sophie was a 'thing,' I just saw a winged woman presenting her anus in 28mm, and my reaction to it was what I was referring to.
makes more sense JamesY, thanks.
there's definitely a big difference between presenting someone their ass and someone presenting their anus
I remember seeing a paint job with a purplish skin tone and wondering what had happened to miniatures whilst I'd been gone.
Oh..I've seen that before. It doesn't really have a "anus" but is still quite nude..so yeah ..
Not for nothing but what a pretty paint job....That's a really well done face.
I'm happy to concede that on the original image I saw it might have been painted on, it was obviously a very talented painter. Those images where removed from the reaper forum because of how gratuitous they were.
@usernamesareannoying It wasn't my intention to single out that particular sophie as better or worse than any others, when I saw the pictures I wasn't aware that sophie was a 'thing,' I just saw a winged woman presenting her anus in 28mm, and my reaction to it was what I was referring to.
What the hell am I reading here?! Are you telling me someone took the time to paint that on to a mini?! Who would even do that?!
These are the same people that read trash like Crossed and watch The Human Centipede aren't they? I'm no prude but come on! This is why we can't have nice things.
What I said was :
“Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery.”
Your answer was a bunch of pictures of guys with pretty faces? I am not sure you understand how this work. Maybe you should take a few training sessions.
I was agreeing with you! You gave an example where the comic would be true-certainly ugly huge guys like Space marines fall into the strength and savagery category.
I don't think there are a lot of wargames miniatures that are pretty-boys by design, nor do I think there's a large market for them.
=Angel= wrote: The point the comic tries to make is that women aren't attracted to big beefy guys (demonstrably false) but rather dexterous, flexible handsome men.
Damn, way to miss the point. The point that comics makes is that Batman and other super heroes are not designed to be sexually attractive to heterosexual women.
Damn, got me there. There's no way physical attractiveness to girls has ever played any role in the design of a superhero or in the casting/content of a superhero movie.
Mymearan wrote: Do you see men like that in every movie, every commercial, every magazine, every ad, like you do women? No, you don't. They are there, but the power fantasy version is MUCH more common, again unlike women. That comic on the other hand is spot on.
Actually I'd say you do tend to see men like that pretty much everywhere in movies, commercials, magazines and ads. The media message to men is similar as it is to women, if you aren't very fit and attractive you better be funny and/or smart.
Also I've seen that comic on the left frequently, I'm not convinced bug-eyed thick lipped batman is what "women" find attractive anyway
I remember seeing a paint job with a purplish skin tone and wondering what had happened to miniatures whilst I'd been gone.
Oh..I've seen that before. It doesn't really have a "anus" but is still quite nude..so yeah ..
Not for nothing but what a pretty paint job....That's a really well done face.
I'm happy to concede that on the original image I saw it might have been painted on, it was obviously a very talented painter. Those images where removed from the reaper forum because of how gratuitous they were.
@usernamesareannoying It wasn't my intention to single out that particular sophie as better or worse than any others, when I saw the pictures I wasn't aware that sophie was a 'thing,' I just saw a winged woman presenting her anus in 28mm, and my reaction to it was what I was referring to.
What the hell am I reading here?! Are you telling me someone took the time to paint that on to a mini?! Who would even do that?!
These are the same people that read trash like Crossed and watch The Human Centipede aren't they? I'm no prude but come on! This is why we can't have nice things.
Indeed. I have seen some weird additions through paint, like Slannesh chaos warriors with, secretions, running down their leg, but I genuinely thought it was a part of the sculpt.
ps if that was an Archer reference at the end of your post, noticed and appreciated.
I'm happy to concede that on the original image I saw it might have been painted on, it was obviously a very talented painter. Those images where removed from the reaper forum because of how gratuitous they were.
WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Ignore every other comment here...Your telling me some one PAINTED an anus on that miniature Like...they added it? REALLY?
I'm happy to concede that on the original image I saw it might have been painted on, it was obviously a very talented painter. Those images where removed from the reaper forum because of how gratuitous they were.
WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! Ignore every other comment here...Your telling me some one PAINTED an anus on that miniature Like...they added it? REALLY?
That right there.....blows my mind
If it isn't part of the sculpt they must have. why isn't there an orkmoticon for vomiting?
=Angel= wrote: Damn, got me there. There's no way physical attractiveness to girls has ever played any role in the design of a superhero or in the casting/content of a superhero movie.
Spoiler:
I am surprised that you did not at least post some Batman movie! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr6gACml4h0 And yeah, recent movies tends to care a bit more about proving het women with eye-candy.
Are you talking about the original material, or the remixed version? Because if you are talking only about the remixed version, it says things about you.
Are you talking about the original material, or the remixed version? Because if you are talking only about the remixed version, it says things about you.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Now for me Artemis behavior is more than offensive Calling another business a liar and demanding proof of sales numbers to back a statement is to me at least unheard of and his attacks on the "tastefulness" (subjective) of the product and the quality of the product (subjective?) are questionable since his company produces the same thing essentially, scantly clad or nude male and female figures in sexualised poses and illogical attire for the task at hand.
Dude, I'm totally fine with your last word addiction 'if' you don't keep adding new and random 'facts' to it. By all means, once again, state your opinion on whether or not we sell the same things, I've already disagreed enough, just repeat yourself if ya like, happy to let it go.
'But' don't be adding bs. At zero point have I demanded proof of sales, quite the opposite in fact. My joke was clearly that we could already 'see' proof of sales and that when I pointed it out they removed it from their site (and then claimed it was for a completely different reason). That would be funny to me in 'any' thread.
I have no interest in seeing any proof of sales of this game (and if I did, Prodos shouldn't give a flying monkey's tump anyway), to be honest seeing the small numbers they sold in the first days already depressed me so the last thing I want is to know there were more people out there buying this.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Now for me Artemis behavior is more than offensive Calling another business a liar and demanding proof of sales numbers to back a statement is to me at least unheard of and his attacks on the "tastefulness" (subjective) of the product and the quality of the product (subjective?) are questionable since his company produces the same thing essentially, scantly clad or nude male and female figures in sexualised poses and illogical attire for the task at hand.
Dude, I'm totally fine with your last word addiction 'if' you don't keep adding new and random 'facts' to it. By all means, once again, state your opinion on whether or not we sell the same things, I've already disagreed enough, just repeat yourself if ya like, happy to let it go.
'But' don't be adding bs. At zero point have I demanded proof of sales, quite the opposite in fact. My joke was clearly that we could already 'see' proof of sales and that when I pointed it out they removed it from their site (and then claimed it was for a completely different reason). That would be funny to me in 'any' thread.
I have no interest in seeing any proof of sales of this game (and if I did, Prodos shouldn't give a flying monkey's tump anyway), to be honest seeing the small numbers they sold in the first days already depressed me so the last thing I want is to know there were more people out there buying this.
So why are you still here? Is there a 'this is sexist dog gak' merit badge in it for you?
PsychoticStorm wrote: Now for me Artemis behavior is more than offensive Calling another business a liar and demanding proof of sales numbers to back a statement is to me at least unheard of and his attacks on the "tastefulness" (subjective) of the product and the quality of the product (subjective?) are questionable since his company produces the same thing essentially, scantly clad or nude male and female figures in sexualised poses and illogical attire for the task at hand.
Dude, I'm totally fine with your last word addiction 'if' you don't keep adding new and random 'facts' to it. By all means, once again, state your opinion on whether or not we sell the same things, I've already disagreed enough, just repeat yourself if ya like, happy to let it go.
'But' don't be adding bs. At zero point have I demanded proof of sales, quite the opposite in fact. My joke was clearly that we could already 'see' proof of sales and that when I pointed it out they removed it from their site (and then claimed it was for a completely different reason). That would be funny to me in 'any' thread.
I have no interest in seeing any proof of sales of this game (and if I did, Prodos shouldn't give a flying monkey's tump anyway), to be honest seeing the small numbers they sold in the first days already depressed me so the last thing I want is to know there were more people out there buying this.
So why are you still here? Is there a 'this is sexist dog gak' merit badge in it for you?
Same reason you are, I hope, I have an interest in the subject. Obviously not the same interest you do but that's how discussion forums work right?
Rather nice actually. I think that this rather nicely goes to support my point that the 'problems' that people have with this line are not really attributable to this (IMO, juvenile) accusation of "sexism", but that many of the originally shown items simply didn't live up to a consistent level of quality.
What I said was :
“Maybe, just maybe, a shirtless male character that is ugly but extremely muscular (like basically all those you used as example, incidentally) is not there for titillation but to portray strength and savagery.”
Your answer was a bunch of pictures of guys with pretty faces? I am not sure you understand how this work. Maybe you should take a few training sessions.
I was agreeing with you! You gave an example where the comic would be true-certainly ugly huge guys like Space marines fall into the strength and savagery category.
I don't think there are a lot of wargames miniatures that are pretty-boys by design, nor do I think there's a large market for them.
=Angel= wrote: The point the comic tries to make is that women aren't attracted to big beefy guys (demonstrably false) but rather dexterous, flexible handsome men.
Damn, way to miss the point. The point that comics makes is that Batman and other super heroes are not designed to be sexually attractive to heterosexual women.
Damn, got me there. There's no way physical attractiveness to girls has ever played any role in the design of a superhero or in the casting/content of a superhero movie.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
First, some wisdom from Opus;
Second, are you alleging that men, who unlike women are primarily sexually stimulated visually, are... visually stimulated?! Gasp!
In all seriousness, of course. It's like Playgirl Magazine, the great attempt to market to women as if they have the same tastes as men... and it ends up being largely supported by gay men. Because men like to look at pictures, and women by and large don't.
Which is rather a capsule of the amusing back and forth in this thread; one group alleging that it's sexist to treat women differently then men, contrasted with other claiming it is sexist to treat women the same as men.
That's what's so great: as I pointed out before, Prodos is being accused of sexism for putting women in the same costumes that male characters routinely wear. N.B., I'm not saying those are good or well designed costumes, merely that they are similar to costumes men wear. They don't work (IMO) precisely because men and women are different, in many, many ways, but not least of which is aesthetically.
Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
^^ What this guy said.
Ultimately, I think it does wonders to lead by example. Hasslefree can stand on solid ground here, which is probably why Arty feels comfortable aggressively expressing his personal opinion.
With respect to this Prods stuff, I think it's cheap, easy, and one-dimensional. It's not for me, and if I saw this kind of stuff filling up a game store every time I walked in, I would not be pleased.
But remember that the table top games market is growing. There's more and better products being made every day. In a market expanding this quickly, some folks are bound to look for a quick buck, and theres pressure on every producer to find new ways to grab eyeballs and attention in an increasingly crowded space.
Do I like what Prodos has done here? Nope. But I think I understand where it comes from. It is a not-so-awesome byproduct of the table top gaming boom.
The bright side is that products like this are sliding deeper into a minority, and it exists now because there's so much great stuff out there already! Folks who want this can get it, but folks who want nothing to do with it can absolutely get products they feel better supporting.
Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
^^ What this guy said.
Ultimately, I think it does wonders to lead by example. Hasslefree can stand on solid ground here, which is probably why Arty feels comfortable aggressively expressing his personal opinion.
With respect to this Prods stuff, I think it's cheap, easy, and one-dimensional. It's not for me, and if I saw this kind of stuff filling up a game store every time I walked in, I would not be pleased.
But remember that the table top games market is growing. There's more and better products being made every day. In a market expanding this quickly, some folks are bound to look for a quick buck, and theres pressure on every producer to find new ways to grab eyeballs and attention in an increasingly crowded space.
Do I like what Prodos has done here? Nope. But I think I understand where it comes from. It is a not-so-awesome byproduct of the table top gaming boom.
The bright side is that products like this are sliding deeper into a minority, and it exists now because there's so much great stuff out there already! Folks who want this can get it, but folks who want nothing to do with it can absolutely get products they feel better supporting.
I must argue this point: I have seen little evidence that 'sexy miniatures', as a broad category, are a minority market of any sort, and even less evidence that they represent a decreasing market share (though to be fair this is complicated by market growth).
Speaking only of matters on kickstarter, my general impression is that miniatures that would be classified as (again, broadly speaking) sexy females are... well, not merely more popular then... hmm, what to call the alternative? Let's say 'realistic'. In any case, sexy outsells realistic not simply by a few percent, but by multiples.
As a fan of all manner of female miniatures (but with an admitted sweet tooth, so to speak), if we are to look at the matter at its broadest strokes it seems to me that sexy outsells realistic by orders of magnitude. Just the consolidation of two companies, Raging Heroes and Kingdom Death, and we're exceeding $3.5 million. Again, just those two companies with 3 campaigns between them.
Don't mistake me, I value realistic female miniatures very highly (I consider Dreamforge's offerings the very top of the line in this regard). Simply as a matter of extant sales data I don't think that we can claim that there is some vast, untapped market for the most de-sexualized female figures.
I must argue this point: I have seen little evidence that 'sexy miniatures', as a broad category, are a minority market of any sort, and even less evidence that they represent a decreasing market share (though to be fair this is complicated by market growth).
Speaking only of matters on kickstarter, my general impression is that miniatures that would be classified as (again, broadly speaking) sexy females are... well, not merely more popular then... hmm, what to call the alternative? Let's say 'realistic'. In any case, sexy outsells realistic not simply by a few percent, but by multiples.
As a fan of all manner of female miniatures (but with an admitted sweet tooth, so to speak), if we are to look at the matter at its broadest strokes it seems to me that sexy outsells realistic by orders of magnitude. Just the consolidation of two companies, Raging Heroes and Kingdom Death, and we're exceeding $3.5 million. Again, just those two companies with 3 campaigns between them.
Don't mistake me, I value realistic female miniatures very highly (I consider Dreamforge's offerings the very top of the line in this regard). Simply as a matter of extant sales data I don't think that we can claim that there is some vast, untapped market for the most de-sexualized female figures.
There's a distinct difference between sexy and exploitatively sexist. Kingdom Death is by and large a different beast from this Prodos stuff here.
I think it's fair to throw cheap, one-dimensional, overly sexist minis into a subcategory.
Sure, sexy sells well. But if you look around the market right now we are seeing a rapid rise in anti-cheesecake representations. Reaper's catalog alone is increasingly filled with minis that aren't at all cheesecake. Just have a look at Believable Female Miniatures, Arena Rex, Victoria Miniatures, Statuesque Miniatures, Anvil Industries, Anvil Eight Games, Crooked Dice, and a HUGE swath of small produers. These days, you don't see tits and thongs every time you turn around. Even bigger names like Wyrd and Mantic aren't trading on T&A.
feth, in terms of product offerings sexy is a massive minority when it comes to table top games miniatures.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
I'd have to echo this statement. There are so many of my female friends that swoon over the Marvel hunks. Oddly my wife isn't one of them, they don't appeal to her but she would be fine looking at Rain from Ninja Assassin all day. She would rather have more topless scenes from him and the only reason she will watch that movie. She does say the whole reason she can't get into miniatures gaming is because none of the male miniatures look appealing to her. In her eyes everyone are old, have beards, too much muscles.
At this I would think it would be better take the discussions, opinions and views on the differences between sexy and exploitative sexist to a new thread. Especially if we're going to bring in references from other companies, games, and miniatures lines to compare with one another on personal tastes, likes and dislikes.
Very nice. I really liked this concept art. But are they supposed to be the same character? I'd prefer the crown in the drawing but can understand if it doesn't work well on the actual miniature.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
I feel their is a difference between this and marvel beefcake. Marvel has plenty of hot dudes in their stuff. But they are never wearing anything or presented in away that feels like it's putting them on display.
These minis have holes cut into their armour to put them on display to be gawked at. Capt. America doesn't have huge parts of his suit cut out so I can get a better look at his ass.
A character can be sexy and still be a cool character. But the design of these minis are just so uncreative.
I finally got around to asking my wife for her opinion: she thought the 'Mabs' daemonettes looked pregnant, and thought they'd appeal more to her if they were the same slimness as the Crusaders.
She's not interested in wargames though, so not sure if that's good feedback
Hi there, yes, we have been working hard in last 3 years to build and grow an audience for WZR, but surprisingly (and sadly as it's pointing out that MAYBE just maybe our design direction with WZR was wrong) we are selling more.
To answer next question : No we won't change direction of design for WZR, regardless of how good SC will sell.
Source is our web-store and retails newsletter orders...
I guess it depends on whatever "retails newsletter orders" means.
Lockark wrote: It's to bad WZR isn't doing well, I bought a ton of models in the kick starter but no one has realy touched the game. I only had one friend consider getting into it, but decided not to after watching the Beasts of War review of it. He felt the vheclies were to fragile were his words.
Hi there, thanks for your comment, as mentioned above, Warzone is doing well and it's growing, however we got two releases at the same day SC and WZR and SC is far better seller than WZR :(
Not to pile on, but it's probably best not to talk about sales figures when your shop uses live stocking. Your box set seems to have sold a mighty 5 boxes, so if it's selling "far better" than WRZ, and you think Warzone is doing well then you are far more easily pleased than I am
Bad form to quote yourself but it's kind of amusing that live stocking has disappeared from your website this morning. I'm sure that's just a coincidence
I think it means 'If we pretend it's selling well, we may get other people to pile on the imaginary bandwagon'
When you remove a function of your own webshop just to avoid contradicting your own story then I think it's a little past 'pinch of salt' time.
Artemis Black wrote:Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.
Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs
I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.
(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )
Artemis Black wrote: Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.
Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs
I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.
(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )
Thanks for your comment, live stocking was removed because it's not working with back orders (pre-orders), as for sales on SC miniatures alone, excluding board game pre-orders + miniatures (being on the back-order): here is a screenshot, trending:
Oh I'm absolutely sure it was removed for some other reason. The timing of it happening 'immediately' upon finding out that people can see how many sets of this you sold was just a huge coincidence.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Frankly, I would actually expect a bit more professional comment from someone how is also producing and selling miniatures, especially on the sales bit...
Thanks for the advertising As others have pointed out, repeatedly, the problem isn't 'boobs'. You'e about 6 pages too late to point out we make miniatures that have breasts, in fact I pointed out that we sell fully naked miniatures so you missed quite a few there. We have a larger percentage than usual of female customers 'because' we sell realistic women, whether dressed or undressed. And yes, those female customers buy our unclothed women all the time.
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
Your AvP miniatures are great, sidestepping the awful handling of the KS, the miniatures themselves are very good indeed. Warzone seems fine, not something I've ever been into but looks well made enough. 'This' is sexist dogshit that I'm embarrassed to have in the hobby.
People make badly sculpted minis every day, there's small companies out there making sexist minis too, I haven't spoken up in public like this about any of them. You''re a large company, with a lot of attention, good and bad, because of the AvP KS. You'v also tagged it onto the dubious trademark for extra attention. 'That' is something worth speaking out against.
I can't be arsed to make separate replies, so if someone has a problem with me expressing my opinion because I also work for a miniatures company then tough. I'm not padlocking my lips because of my job. This kind of sexist nonsense belongs in the past so that the hobby as a whole can move forward.
Artemis Black wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote: Now for me Artemis behavior is more than offensive Calling another business a liar and demanding proof of sales numbers to back a statement is to me at least unheard of and his attacks on the "tastefulness" (subjective) of the product and the quality of the product (subjective?) are questionable since his company produces the same thing essentially, scantly clad or nude male and female figures in sexualised poses and illogical attire for the task at hand.
Dude, I'm totally fine with your last word addiction 'if' you don't keep adding new and random 'facts' to it. By all means, once again, state your opinion on whether or not we sell the same things, I've already disagreed enough, just repeat yourself if ya like, happy to let it go.
'But' don't be adding bs. At zero point have I demanded proof of sales, quite the opposite in fact. My joke was clearly that we could already 'see' proof of sales and that when I pointed it out they removed it from their site (and then claimed it was for a completely different reason). That would be funny to me in 'any' thread.
I have no interest in seeing any proof of sales of this game (and if I did, Prodos shouldn't give a flying monkey's tump anyway), to be honest seeing the small numbers they sold in the first days already depressed me so the last thing I want is to know there were more people out there buying this.
All the above were jokes and not direct or indirect attacks on the sales numbers and indirectly a demand to see proof tha the sale numbers they claimed exist and are not fabricated, to "jump on the bandwagon"? Sir I am sorry I misunderstood your humor.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
I feel their is a difference between this and marvel beefcake. Marvel has plenty of hot dudes in their stuff. But they are never wearing anything or presented in away that feels like it's putting them on display.
These minis have holes cut into their armour to put them on display to be gawked at. Capt. America doesn't have huge parts of his suit cut out so I can get a better look at his ass.
A character can be sexy and still be a cool character. But the design of these minis are just so uncreative.
For sure, I don't disagree with what you are saying regarding the use of sex in Marvel character design and the use here by Prodos. I was merely commenting on the position presented by others that women aren't titillated by nude males and instead those images are only provided as a male power fantasy, or for homosexual males. In my experience that hasn't been the case. Women are sexual beings and hot dudes with muscles appeal to many women.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
And how is the result any different? If people aren't buying embarrassing minis, does it matter if they are lying about why they are embarrassed?
"I don't buy titty models because they are sexist and offend me" is not so different from "I don't buy titty models because I don't want to seem sexist and like to pretend to be offended." The minis aren't selling, and the cure for one issue is the same as the cure for the other.
Well, I've read this whole thing. Going back to the actual products, I like all of the bike models themselves. I like most of the riders, its wasn't their bodies that gave me pause but some of their facial expressions and hair. As for the rest, I don't dislike any of them, but I wont be buying them either as I have way too many unpainted models as it is.
As for the floating armor bits, I really don't mind them, but then again I'm a huge fan of anime and if I can get behind character models such as this...
or this ...
or even this ...
If I wanted to see real body armor, I'd visit my local police station or army training facility. (I'm a service plumber, you would be amazed at the places I get into).
But when I'm sitting down in my free time, painting to relax, I don't really feel the need for real life examples. Because I see those in real life every day. I want to enter the fantasy realm of my imagination, and in that place, full real life functioning armor is not a priority.
So to those who produce these cheesecake or sexy models/figures, I say keep at it. Maybe I'll even buy one or two someday when I run out of things to paint.
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather nice actually. I think that this rather nicely goes to support my point that the 'problems' that people have with this line are not really attributable to this (IMO, juvenile) accusation of "sexism", but that many of the originally shown items simply didn't live up to a consistent level of quality.
Same ditto.
I think the problem is the "uncanny valley", where the closer, but not exactly, something looks like a human, the more negative response to it. Despite how common it is to find a well-sculpted and painted female form, it's nonetheless much more difficult to sculpt and paint one, particularly compared to other miniature figures. Heck, anyone who's painted eyes knows that, even if an eye is the slightest bit off, this can ruin the look of a miniature, regardless of how well the rest of the miniature is painted. I haven't seen many posts analyzing *why* the sculpts are bad, because, I think, we are not conscious of the rules of how you can and cannot deviate from realism into fantasy before the figure looks slightly off, thus entering the valley. Nor, I think, is the uncanny valley the same for each person. Certainly in anime and animation, the human form is not always depicted realistically, and some people react negatively to certain animation. The uncanny valley is best known in robotics and CGI, particularly video games. btw, In miniatures, we regularly see miniatures intentionally in the uncanny valley: zombies. "One theory is that our experience with the uncanny valley stems from an evolutionary tendency to be repulsed by anyone who looks sick or unhealthy or wrong. In other words, “pathogen avoidance.”" This does not apply to these Prodos miniatures, of course.
Making an analysis of why the sculpts look "bad" complicated is how some viewers accept human features that are obviously not realistic, particularly proportionally. Large breasts are an obvious examples, but hands are usually proportionally larger on a miniature, and anime is well known for its larger eyes.
Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
^^ What this guy said.
Ultimately, I think it does wonders to lead by example. Hasslefree can stand on solid ground here, which is probably why Arty feels comfortable aggressively expressing his personal opinion.
With respect to this Prods stuff, I think it's cheap, easy, and one-dimensional. It's not for me, and if I saw this kind of stuff filling up a game store every time I walked in, I would not be pleased.
But remember that the table top games market is growing. There's more and better products being made every day. In a market expanding this quickly, some folks are bound to look for a quick buck, and theres pressure on every producer to find new ways to grab eyeballs and attention in an increasingly crowded space.
Do I like what Prodos has done here? Nope. But I think I understand where it comes from. It is a not-so-awesome byproduct of the table top gaming boom.
The bright side is that products like this are sliding deeper into a minority, and it exists now because there's so much great stuff out there already! Folks who want this can get it, but folks who want nothing to do with it can absolutely get products they feel better supporting.
I must argue this point: I have seen little evidence that 'sexy miniatures', as a broad category, are a minority market of any sort, and even less evidence that they represent a decreasing market share (though to be fair this is complicated by market growth).
Speaking only of matters on kickstarter, my general impression is that miniatures that would be classified as (again, broadly speaking) sexy females are... well, not merely more popular then... hmm, what to call the alternative? Let's say 'realistic'. In any case, sexy outsells realistic not simply by a few percent, but by multiples.
As a fan of all manner of female miniatures (but with an admitted sweet tooth, so to speak), if we are to look at the matter at its broadest strokes it seems to me that sexy outsells realistic by orders of magnitude. Just the consolidation of two companies, Raging Heroes and Kingdom Death, and we're exceeding $3.5 million. Again, just those two companies with 3 campaigns between them.
Don't mistake me, I value realistic female miniatures very highly (I consider Dreamforge's offerings the very top of the line in this regard). Simply as a matter of extant sales data I don't think that we can claim that there is some vast, untapped market for the most de-sexualized female figures.
I remember someone from reaper saying in their experiments, nude figures outsold clothed equivalents 4:1
Herzlos wrote: I think they came to the conclusion the market for nude female miniatures was bigger than the market for regular female mini's.
Which it might be. I'm not sure if that's an issue. I mean, how many statues do you see of nude females Vs dressed females, or art prints?
People keep refering to ART and prodos work in the same sentence . Yes there are nude statues in museums around the world, but these are not in the same league. If these had been done well, then there would not have been anywhere near the backlash they received, but they were done poorly and with the infringing upon another companies IP (even though GW failed to keep it current ) it just leaves a sour taste in many peoples mouths. On top of all of that Prodos is Late delivering their Kickstarter pledges to a very vocal group (especially here) and it makes it look like they are not focused on satisfying their obligations.
That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
Miniatures are a way to express our own fantasies and dreams in the 3D world. Not really surprising if half naked girls in space are parts of them.
Not saying they're the only ones you can have - but if they sell, that means a lot of people actually like this kind of fantasy. It's not like they're dressing their girlfriends/spouses/sisters/daughters that way IRL. Or making war on a planetary scale just because they collect an army of Space (female) Marines.
Sometimes, it may be good to know where is the separation between fantasy and reality. You don't like those? No one is forcing you to buy. Like no one forced those who bought naked females from Reaper, Hasslefree or Brother Vinni miniatures. But there will always be people who think their virtue is stronger by denigrating them and forgetting their own "guilty pleasures".
Also, exalt for Jayden63. Anime Mecha Girlz are the best. By the way, Prodos, if you make a range of anime female miniatures in quite sexy and totally unrealistic armors, I think I would be interested as well.
Herzlos wrote: That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
1- art quality ain't subjective: there's certainly taste in art, but, well, concept and execution are qualifiers, and people who're actually trained know what to look for. Same way you can like or dislike a building's style, but an architect will be able to tell you if it gets its job done. Art as purely subjective is a way to avoid getting someone's feelings hurt.
2- creating something does not make it art. At it's core, art is expression, hence, while the black canvas might not have taken technical skill (well, actually, making a canvas is a skill, as is the application of paint, representative or not), it's still expression.
What's prodos expressing? What message of imagination or message or thesis are they trying to convey. Space boobies?
Making an analysis of why the sculpts look "bad" complicated is how some viewers accept human features that are obviously not realistic, particularly proportionally. Large breasts are an obvious examples, but hands are usually proportionally larger on a miniature, and anime is well known for its larger eyes.
Proportions in table top miniatures is always an interesting discussion. From our experience, hand size needs to correlate with foot size and head size or things start looking weird.
Incidentally, I haven't taken a long look at these Prodos models, but it seemed to me that the overall proportions are pretty consistent with other minis on the market, by which I mean things like torso length vs head size vs hand size vs arm length, etc. Within that basic framework, Prodos has started messing with -other- proportions.
Prodos definitely has sculptors who know how to make a well-proportioned gaming miniature. I think that's a given. Beyond that, it is an interesting question whether the stylistically-driven proportion choices have gone a little too far and made the models look 'off' to some people.
Herzlos wrote: I remember someone from reaper saying in their experiments, nude figures outsold clothed equivalents 4:1
I've heard that too, although whether it actually came from Reaper or exists as accumulated internet lore I don't know.
Anyway, I have no reason to assume it's not true. But my point was that in terms of product offerings, you see far less nude/cheescake models than not.
Regardless of whether nudes sell more, Reaper's catalog isn't 65% naked models, right? In fact, you have to go digging if that's what you are looking for.
Why is that if nudes sell 4 times as much? I dunno. Probably a question for KidKyoto. I've never understood how Reaper decides what models to produce. I'm looking at YOU anthropomorphic armadillo gunslinger!
Edit: HEY wait! Isn't the Armadillo Gunslinger NUDE! Let me see...YES both of them are.
Herzlos wrote: That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
If everything is art, then nothing is art. Next time someone tries to tell you that jars of urine is art, tell them to feth off and get a life
", then i see these models and 
. They are worlds apart in quality of both concept and execution, to compare them to each other is ridiculous. About the only thing that they have in common is that they are scale representations of humanoids, 
The supply for "sexy space marines/daemons" is pretty limited, so even sculpts you might find to be amateurish or even just plain bad are going to sell (in quantity) to a certain market. I'm more shocked that these guys are the first to actually make a serious run at it. Yes there's Raging Heroes, but that's a fairly different aesthetic, doesn't include Daemons/Chaos, and has their own issues (they'll be delivered when?).
Like...they added it? REALLY?
