noun. The definition of art is the product of imagination and creativity, particularly in a physical form. A painting, theatrical performance and a sculpture are each an example of art.
Your wrong Artemis.
Not everything is art true...but the intention is what make it art.
The guy making a anime girl garage kit of some half nude maid is an artist cause hes making art. Its a half nude anime maid...but its still art.
People rip Akira Toriyama apart for his particular style (dragon ball dragon balll z) but hes still an artist. and for those that DO like him..a great one
Yes...everything can be art if that;s the intention. to dismiss a artist because of their failure at execution or subject leads to a road where someone might say that Gil Elvgre is not an artist cause all he did was take photos of half naked girls and copy them.
The person who drew those pictures has talent and can execute an idea and the person who sculpted them digitally has skill and can execute an idea and both are making art.
Space girls with weird proportions and ridiculous guns pin up might not be what you like.... but its still art.
Also just cause its made with intent to sell does not diminish art. Normal Rockwell made many of his paintings for the sole purpose of selling to commercial investment (Coke for example).
That was all completely off subject so here's some more prodoss based words. I wonder if they will ship their miniatures out tomorrow like the website says
Herzlos wrote: That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
If everything is art, then nothing is art. Next time someone tries to tell you that jars of urine is art, tell them to feth off and get a life
(Or offer to sell them some urine first)
No artist should ever have to submit to a urine test!
The Auld Grump - I admit... I like Alaskan pollock more than Jackson Pollock....
The discussion on 'what is art' might be better continued elsewhere? (not that I'm a mod or anything).
My two cents on the matter though is that those kind of arguments are almost always fruitless due to some people equating the term 'art' with some kind of quality and some people don't.
Unless it's first agreed what we mean by the term, there's no point in trying to argue whether something should be included in it.
noun. The definition of art is the product of imagination and creativity, particularly in a physical form. A painting, theatrical performance and a sculpture are each an example of art.
Your wrong Artemis.
"you're", more spelling, less art theory *boom*
More seriously though, while I fully stand by what i said, it was only meant as a joke rather than an invite to a long, and as someone above said, likely completely unwinnable, argument on what is art
Yeah... IDK about that. Or, rather, it might be that then intention needs to be more than the unassailable declaration "I believe this is art." Calling a urinal art as an absurdist statement can make it art as a conceptual piece. Calling a urinal art because someone else said it was so yours should be too... is really iffy but probably still (not good) art. Callin a urinal art because it has a bigger profit margin than selling it to a plumber doesn't make it art.
So, wait, they use the name of an existing game by Games Workshop, and then have models that are ridiculously evocative of Game Workshop license material, and this has somehow not been C&D'd out of existence yet?
More seriously though, while I fully stand by what i said, it was only meant as a joke rather than an invite to a long, and as someone above said, likely completely unwinnable, argument on what is art
Grammer Nazi .....but yes you are correct...truly not an argument/discussion for this thread. I feel strongly about it so ....had to make my comment.
In my defense......I did ask if Prodos was gonna ship by tomorrow at the very end of my rant....cough
More seriously though, while I fully stand by what i said, it was only meant as a joke rather than an invite to a long, and as someone above said, likely completely unwinnable, argument on what is art
More seriously though, while I fully stand by what i said, it was only meant as a joke rather than an invite to a long, and as someone above said, likely completely unwinnable, argument on what is art
Herzlos wrote: I mean, how many statues do you see of nude females Vs dressed females, or art prints?
Ye be tryin' to fool who exactly?
Spoiler:
Noticed something? Hint, look between the legs. Yes, that's the difference between nude statues and nude wargaming models.
Nude statues come in both gender.
Uhm... so do wargaming models.
Spoiler:
Those are just three examples I happen to own that popped into my head. There are also a ton of Mierce models out there with their junk flapping in the breeze, a fact people in those threads bemoan as well, like a hippo man doesn't want to air out the lads a bit here and again.
Maybe there are more naked women than men, but then there are more straight men in the wargaming/miniature collecting hobby than straight women or gay men, so it isn't terribly surprising.
Herzlos wrote: I mean, how many statues do you see of nude females Vs dressed females, or art prints?
Ye be tryin' to fool who exactly?
Spoiler:
Noticed something? Hint, look between the legs. Yes, that's the difference between nude statues and nude wargaming models.
Spoiler:
Nude statues come in both gender.
I don't think the ratio of male:female nudes is that different in wargaming and the art world. From my experience art galleries (unless it's something like a Mapplethorpe exhibit) tend to be mostly female. Plenty of nude male mini's out there, but there tends to be outrage when they get mentioned.
1- art quality ain't subjective: there's certainly taste in art, but, well, concept and execution are qualifiers, and people who're actually trained know what to look for. Same way you can like or dislike a building's style, but an architect will be able to tell you if it gets its job done. Art as purely subjective is a way to avoid getting someone's feelings hurt.
Art is pretty much the definition of subjective.
The comparison with architecture is a bad one too; there's science behind the function and it's measurable - you can have a well built but ugly building, or a poorly built but stunning building. Art has no function, so there's nothing to measure against.
The function of art is to communicate a message or idea. That's essentially the difference between art and the caprices of nature, beautiful though those may be.
Thanks, Nomeny. Yes, art's function is expression/communication.
If art poorly expresses an idea, it's probably bad art. If art is not expressing anything at all, it's probably not art.
It's definitely not quantifiable, but qualitative success or failure. But something having qualitative value does not mean its success or failure is undefinable and therefore nonexistent.
Herzlos wrote: I remember someone from reaper saying in their experiments, nude figures outsold clothed equivalents 4:1
I've heard that too, although whether it actually came from Reaper or exists as accumulated internet lore I don't know.
Anyway, I have no reason to assume it's not true. But my point was that in terms of product offerings, you see far less nude/cheescake models than not.
Regardless of whether nudes sell more, Reaper's catalog isn't 65% naked models, right? In fact, you have to go digging if that's what you are looking for.
Why is that if nudes sell 4 times as much? I dunno. Probably a question for KidKyoto. I've never understood how Reaper decides what models to produce. I'm looking at YOU anthropomorphic armadillo gunslinger!
Edit: HEY wait! Isn't the Armadillo Gunslinger NUDE! Let me see...YES both of them are.
But we have done some tests. Conversions on the same figure, and released under different part numbers and names have shown that an immodest figure will outsell a more modest version of the same exact figure. A topless version will sell a LOT more, and full nudity will sell even more.
Now, obviously this is the results of one company, and testing a very different market (individual figures rather then product lines), but this is, to the best of my knowledge, the only such testing ever publicly reported.
That's not to say that there is no market out there, or that the preferences that exist for single models (presumably bought for painting/display/RPGs) are applicable to building an army. But there is an opportunity coming in the next year as there are going to be 5 fairly large entries into the market of aesthetically distinct female miniatures; Raging Heroes has 3 different lines of female miniatures coming out ranging from tank tops and bare midriffs to head-to-toe uniforms. In addition we can (hopefully) expect relatively soon Dreamforge Games to release their Black Widow female anti-tank troopers in their Eisenkern line and the entry from Victoria miniatures.
A year from now if those lines reach the market we will have some real, new data in this area, since they represent five fairly good points on the continuum of titillation, from near-pinup to virtually de-sexualized.
As I point out above, we're really getting to a time when there are a lot of options, it's going to be fascinating to see if previous predictions hold true about people's buying habits. But that's beyond the scope of this thread, certainly.
So...the 23rd has come. I'm positive that someone ordered at least on of these.
Since AVP is such a huge lingering issue in regards to Prodos ability to complete a project (And regarding this I have no experience or opinion, I didn't buy into the AVP KS)
Has there been any movement on miniature purchases?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: So, wait, they use the name of an existing game by Games Workshop, and then have models that are ridiculously evocative of Game Workshop license material, and this has somehow not been C&D'd out of existence yet?
The rights to the name must have lapsed (is it 25 years? Not sure how these things work)
Same thing happened with Heroquest, at least in Europe where Gamezone are meant to be launching a game with that title (if it ever sees the light of day)
rayphoton wrote: So...the 23rd has come. I'm positive that someone ordered at least on of these.
Since AVP is such a huge lingering issue in regards to Prodos ability to complete a project (And regarding this I have no experience or opinion, I didn't buy into the AVP KS)
Has there been any movement on miniature purchases?
I wondered pretty early on about the wording on the release dates. I find it odd that the boxed game has a release date after the individual minis.
'Shipping after' (Prodos text on their site) is also lot different than 'shipping from'
Prodos posting lots of in development work leads me to believe that any actual buyers will be waiting a while before getting the minis in their hands. Especially as criticism led them to talk of a PG release - which wasn't around when this was first on the Prodos site.
These feel more like they're using boobs and such as a cash grab more than some sort of artistic expression, especially when coupled with the history of this company.
rayphoton wrote: So...the 23rd has come. I'm positive that someone ordered at least on of these.
Since AVP is such a huge lingering issue in regards to Prodos ability to complete a project (And regarding this I have no experience or opinion, I didn't buy into the AVP KS)
Has there been any movement on miniature purchases?
Orders moved to a new status yesterday. No shipping info.
rayphoton wrote: So...the 23rd has come. I'm positive that someone ordered at least on of these.
Since AVP is such a huge lingering issue in regards to Prodos ability to complete a project (And regarding this I have no experience or opinion, I didn't buy into the AVP KS)
Has there been any movement on miniature purchases?
Orders moved to a new status yesterday. No shipping info.
Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.
These models look awful. I can only assume their Warzone and AVP sculptor quit and they have some college interns sculpting these monopose monstrosities
Odd choice of texture for the chest(or is that a general Chaos thing?). Also the continuation of power heels- wouldn't have a foot closer to the ground provide a firmer contact point with the base? I have enough trouble with tip-toeing hormagaunts, and It appears these will have the same problem.
Now, back on the topic, we are working on 2nd Heroine for armoured version of the board game (I need to stop calling it pg13 really). What is dakkadakka take on it?
Looks alright. I might be willing to buy some of your products, but not until after I see that AVP and WarZone are both entirely completed and all backers have all of their stuff.
While it's certainly less silly than the bikini version, it still ultimately has the same problem of heavy armour on the shoulders and legs, and none in between. Particularly with the lower leg armour being so heavy, it just looks weird.
Honestly, I think that's nitpicking, considering what else we happily accept without an issue.
I've seen other forums refer to dakka dakka as a "pit of vile and repungant maggots" Warseer I think . And one of the nice folks on the reaper forums says he avoids this place cause its too toxic. We do have something of a reputation apparently.
Then again....
Creator Shieldwolf Miniatures about 14 hours ago
@Highlord
From all the forums we visit, Dakka is the one with the most knowledgeable (did I spell that right?) people hobby-wise, meaning they have the most knowledge in what makes or breaks a "good" miniature (this concerns literally everything from concept, material, support etc etc).
The comments over there are constructive, meaning they don't go out saying "the lions are not good sculpts because the leathers have been sculpted badly, rasta hair is silly etc" and other stuff we read elsewhere and consider nonsense, heck, if you can point me to more detailed lions in 28mm worldwide by all means, but if you simply don't like the concept don't be mean just for the sake of it, it doesn't help anyone... *rant mode off*, lol...
It was also thanks to comments we read from there when we had first came out back in February 2013 (3 years ago exactly) that pushed us in getting better and better.
The Dakka members are what in Greece we call "σκληρός μα σωστός" meaning "hard but just". :-)
Hi there yes, the main pack contains a rocket launcher, as for more models with a similar approach to other company miniatures, here are some concepts we have based SC on, made by a well know artist, that will be an expansion to the SC line in both, 18+ and armoured form. Thanks
please note: all you see here is just in a concept form, we will however have to do a round with our legal advisor to make sure we are not too close to some other companies IPs. Thanks
(pictures snipped)
Hilarious! Congratulations, you definitely brought a smile to my face there!
Don't mind the gangsta pose in this one, the only complaint is that the legs look a little short? They should be longer than the upper body
PS will there a bundle for those who want to have both versions? instead of buying the adult version and the kiddie version separately?
Spoiler:
Legs on this one look really weird. Like a satyr or something. - edit - looks much better in the 3-d rotatable render, at least.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I'm actually more likely to put my money toward a company that has staff who stand against the blatant nonsense of others.
I also very much doubt the majority of people tutting and admonishing Arty were lining his tills to begin with.
I'm somewhat in two minds on this - on one hand, I think Arty is taking it a bit over the top (and have wondered why the mods have left him alone without a warning, TBH) especially considering how many breasts Kev seems to sculpt and Hasslefree appears to sell - but I'd rather see him be as honest as the rest of us if he's going to join in on the discussion. While I think Hasslefree's stuff is far better than the Prodos stuff, I don't have any illusions that they're an attempt to appeal to "art" or have a loftier worth rather than appealing to the same prurient interests that Prodos is aiming at, and I find the suggestion that it is by Arty to be highly amusing. The Hasslefree stuff is just far better sculpted and proportioned overall while the Prodos stuff isn't quite there and takes a bit too much inspiration from Paolo and Rackham (underboob!).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Im going to pick up a copy of "fierce in fur".....
Veteran Sergeant wrote: So, wait, they use the name of an existing game by Games Workshop, and then have models that are ridiculously evocative of Game Workshop license material, and this has somehow not been C&D'd out of existence yet?
"Space Crusade was never Games Workshop's name to defend. If Prodos were ripping off the designs of Orks, genestealers or Space Marines, then they'd be relevant. As it is, clearly Hasbro don't give a monkey's about a game they released a quarter of a century ago.
Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.
Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.
EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!
Veteran Sergeant wrote: So, wait, they use the name of an existing game by Games Workshop, and then have models that are ridiculously evocative of Game Workshop license material, and this has somehow not been C&D'd out of existence yet?
"Space Crusade was never Games Workshop's name to defend. If Prodos were ripping off the designs of Orks, genestealers or Space Marines, then they'd be relevant. As it is, clearly Hasbro don't give a monkey's about a game they released a quarter of a century ago.
and given how many companies make interesting new orc heads Pirate orcs, german orcs, orcs with sombreros..GW doesn't really care about those either.
Besides the bolter guns....the only thing that evocative of space marines is the one shoulder pad...and its still different enough to nigh impossible to successfully sue over. See chapterhouse.
Buttery Commissar wrote: I'm actually more likely to put my money toward a company that has staff who stand against the blatant nonsense of others.
I also very much doubt the majority of people tutting and admonishing Arty were lining his tills to begin with.
I'm somewhat in two minds on this - on one hand, I think Arty is taking it a bit over the top (and have wondered why the mods have left him alone without a warning, TBH) especially considering how many breasts Kev seems to sculpt and Hasslefree appears to sell - but I'd rather see him be as honest as the rest of us if he's going to join in on the discussion. While I think Hasslefree's stuff is far better than the Prodos stuff, I don't have any illusions that they're an attempt to appeal to "art" or have a loftier worth rather than appealing to the same prurient interests that Prodos is aiming at, and I find the suggestion that it is by Arty to be highly amusing. The Hasslefree stuff is just far better sculpted and proportioned overall while the Prodos stuff isn't quite there and takes a bit too much inspiration from Paolo and Rackham (underboob!).
Spoiler:
I am starting to think it may be a ruse? look at all the free hasslefree "exposure" Last facebook post is also very "artsy"
I don't think that anyone has said that hasslefree doesn't do nudes or cheesecake models, the difference between the two companies is HF makes models that are anatomically correct and good quality. Compare that last pic you showed with the figures from prodos and you see the difference right off the bat. If you can't see the difference then theres no point continuing to rehash it. People are frustrated with Artemis Black for his posts here, but fine, lets look at Prodos sculpts again and tell me they are a good quality sculpt of female anatomy. Yes theres a market for this drivel, but it doesn't mean that I have to like it, nor does it mean that I have to just tune it out. It offends me and I'll keep saying that. I have a 12 year old daughter and twin 10 year olds that I'm just getting involved in the hobby. I dislike taking them to the local game store because of the profanity that gets tossed around, and I have seen more than one army of models that I had to walk away from because of poor taste. There's a place for armies like this and it's not at a public store where someone who might bring their kids in happens across it. If you buy the PG 18 figures then for the Love of God keep them at your home or only take them to play at friends homes that would be okay with it. I've worked in 3 different game/comic shops when i was a teenager (20+ years ago), and even then there were things that should not have made it to the table, and we had to enforce that rule. I have no problem with people playing Kingdom Death:Monster, as long as it is not in front of my kids with the penis/ Vagina Monsters. Prodos wants to put this garbage on the shelf then i hope the shops that order it in droves keep it behind the counter with little boards in front of the naughty parts like they do with adult magazines, and I hope sales suck on it.
I'm sorry if I'm over reacting, but seriously this thread has had how many people wish it was locked now? I never heard of SJW until this thread, now every thread that shows a little skin or has breasts in it branches off into that topic. Thak You Prodos
I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..
I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.
No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.
Azazelx wrote: I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..
I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.
No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.
In various circles it's possible to differentiate between porn that's well done, or that contains positive reinforcement of progressive values, from porn that's poorly done or that reinforces negative stereotypes.
So, yeah, "_____ and bad" and "____ and good" are important distinctions to make.
But both are the same genre and should offend people offended by such genre equally, quality is important only if you care about a genre.
I would argue inside a genre that all levels of quality have a place and not all gravitate towards the "more refined" product.
I am with Azazelx claiming moral high ground on either side is ridiculous.
@ Theophony
Yes I am ready to receive the "you don't have kids don't speak" speech, but, isn't this stance overprotective? (or maybe unrealistic?) I hear more profanity in the roads and even more in the schools, I live near the schools of my area and the kids have more colorful vocabulary than I ever had, than in most local game stores. I also think that if a store chooses to sell a "mature" product and provides play space people that bought the product should expect to be able to play with it there, I would argue that everything in a wargame is more "mature rating" than "exposed flesh" depicted on not, but that's another topic.
Azazelx wrote: I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..
I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.
No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.
Just to say completely agree with both this and your last post
You could lump Kingdom Death, Brother Vinni etc as well - the sculpting & concept better or worse in each case, but ultimately they are occupying a similar niche, and the line between artful nudes and shameful porn is often grey and blurred (and in a lot of cases subjective)
Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.
Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.
EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!
The Poland PO says they got the package 4 hours ago, so time from in progress to actually shipped is about 3.5 days, but a box is supposedly on the way to me now.
PsychoticStorm wrote: But both are the same genre and should offend people offended by such genre equally, quality is important only if you care about a genre.
I would argue inside a genre that all levels of quality have a place and not all gravitate towards the "more refined" product.
I am with Azazelx claiming moral high ground on either side is ridiculous.
@ Theophony
Yes I am ready to receive the "you don't have kids don't speak" speech, but, isn't this stance overprotective? (or maybe unrealistic?) I hear more profanity in the roads and even more in the schools, I live near the schools of my area and the kids have more colorful vocabulary than I ever had, than in most local game stores. I also think that if a store chooses to sell a "mature" product and provides play space people that bought the product should expect to be able to play with it there, I would argue that everything in a wargame is more "mature rating" than "exposed flesh" depicted on not, but that's another topic.
You get a right to speak even without kids, some of the nicest people that I know don't have kids but volunteer to work with them. Wether they couldn't have any of their own or the timing never worked out they didn't sire any offspring, but they are better parents than many that I've seen.
As for being overprotective . As a parent I try to teach my kids what I believe is right and wrong, and that means that you need to keep your kids away from certain things until they are old enough to comprehend the difference between the two and how one affects the other. My kids have all had "the Talk" because there is just too much of this junk in the world and you cannot avoid it, it doesn't mean that it's okay to go outside around a schoolyard and curse to your hearts content just because others do. If that were the case I'd just go on a killing spree because that is acceptable. I may not be able to provide a Leave it to Beaver style upbringing for my kids, but as long as I have breath then I will do what i can to protect them and give them the benefit of my knowledge in helping them to decide how to best live their life once I'm gone. Too many choices are out there right now that have lasting reporecussions on kids lives to let kids make uninformed decisions. While these models aren't the end of the world, they are one of the problems wrong with it. It is nudity for nudity's sake and serves no purpose except to elicit a harsh response.
Retailers that sell this should be aware that they will offend some of their customers and a small minority of those customers will just stop buying from them on principle. I am one of those people and I was just about to start buying warzone models to paint as I like the asian themed army and I even commented in the thread when they showed off the Gigamech. After seeing this stuff, and the representative from Prodos, I will spend my money elsewhere. While not a fanatic of Aliens vs. Predator, It is a game that I wanted to purchase at a later date, when my kids are ready for watching those movies with me, and then be able to play against them. That too has now been ruined by the company's desire to try for a cash grab by selling gak.
Azazelx wrote: I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..
I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.
No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.
And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).
But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.
I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.
Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.
You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.
But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection
Azazelx wrote: I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..
I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.
No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.
And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).
But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.
I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.
Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.
You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.
But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection
I agree with Arty here, and I will add that I don't think a nude is inherently sexualized. I daresay one might argue that automatically viewing a nude female as a sexual object is inherently sexist.
HFM absolutely sells sexualized models, but most of Kev's nudes do not even fall into that category. Kev sculpts from a mostly finished nude dollie. Finishing the dollie and selling the work separately is frankly good business sense, but more importantly, the nude was often not even intended for a sexualized model.
It's just a nude female.
The difference between a nude female and a sexist depiction of women is miles wide.
Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.
Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.
EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!
The Poland PO says they got the package 4 hours ago, so time from in progress to actually shipped is about 3.5 days, but a box is supposedly on the way to me now.
Please let us know when it arrives, and take plenty of pictures!
Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.
Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.
EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!
The Poland PO says they got the package 4 hours ago, so time from in progress to actually shipped is about 3.5 days, but a box is supposedly on the way to me now.
Please let us know when it arrives, and take plenty of pictures!
At $24 to ship even 1 unit it better be flying here on the wings of eagles (but likely will show up mid March I'm guessing ).
Azazelx wrote: I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..
I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.
No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.
And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).
But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.
I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.
Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.
You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.
But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection
I agree with Arty here, and I will add that I don't think a nude is inherently sexualized. I daresay one might argue that automatically viewing a nude female as a sexual object is inherently sexist.
HFM absolutely sells sexualized models, but most of Kev's nudes do not even fall into that category. Kev sculpts from a mostly finished nude dollie. Finishing the dollie and selling the work separately is frankly good business sense, but more importantly, the nude was often not even intended for a sexualized model.
It's just a nude female.
The difference between a nude female and a sexist depiction of women is miles wide.
I can appreciate this sentiment, and I certainly understand why Artemis believes what he believes, but this is an attempt to turn a difference of opinion on aesthetics into an objective difference of kind.
I'm able to say that because I have seen this attitude, the idea that artistic merit or quality differentiates 'acceptable' from 'unacceptable', publicly refuted. That is, Kingdom Death, which for much of this discussion has been used as the 'Gold Standard' of high quality, artistic but also sexy products. People have said (unless I am very much misremembering) things along the lines of 'oh, you can't compare this stuff to KD, this is crap and that is quality'.
Which is immediately demolished when you realize that Kingdom Death has been attacked in feminist media as the worst kind of sexist trash (KICKSTARTING SEXISM WITH "KINGDOM DEATH" , as B!tch Media titles it... I did not make that up).
What's the rule for is a thing is sexist, according to that feminist? "It was using images of women's bodies to make money." My impression of this generation of feminists (or, at least, their most vocal adherents on tumbler, YouTube and the internet) is that this is a fairly uncontroversial sentiment.
To someone that has internalized the above as their rule for "sexism", then there really isn't any difference between Prodos and Hasslefree. Because to such a person there is no difference between Hasslefree and Kingdom Death... or Wyrd. Or Arena Rex. Or Corvus Bell. Etc, etc, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong with regards to sexism... which is the point. It's silly to imagine that there is some hard and fast line of categories in this matter. Not when people will scream 'sexism!" at Infinity's combat heels, or claim that Dreamforge's female troopers (IMO the most realistic female sci-fi troopers currently on sale) are sexualized because the butt is... just too pert.
All of that said, I return to my original point from some time ago: the problem of Prodos' range is a failure of aesthetics, not ethics. The very busy armored parts simply don't work right with the smooth, 'naturalistic' torsos, producing a jarring rather then pleasing effect. They are in a middle ground where they (IMO) should either be more nude, or less (which seems to be where they are currently going).
Which is why adding just a little bit of coverage, of texture, on the 'PG18' versions actually makes them aesthetically better. IMO, of course.
I've never heard Dreamforge described as sexist before, perhaps because the Eisenkern dudes' butts are just as pert. That is just a strange complaint.
Hasslefree is not a company I would put in the "not sexist" camp, however there are degrees. Their Libby minis portray a body type not often found in miniature wargames, which docks some points off the sexism score card for some people. Still, I cringed at the two vikings Kev sculpted for Bones 3. (Not because they are nude necessarily, but because of the cheesy poses and cynical nature of the nudity.)
Frankly, KDM has so many more problematic things going on than pin-ups that it feels like wondering if there's sexism in Hentai.
BrookM wrote: Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...
Much of the body horror contains elements of rape. I wasn't calling KDM hentai, but rather saying that like with hentai there are many more issues with KDM than just the tits.
Anyway, as far as this project is concerned, I personally find bigger issues with the stupidity of the clothing and poses than with the TnA itself. If they have forcefields, just make them all go Dr Manhattan and get it done with. Huge armored shoulders and naked navels are a stupid combination worthy of derision no matter who is wearing it. It's embarrassing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: I recently acquired some Warzone minis, and the resin casting and quality is on par with the greats like Paulson. If the Crusaders miniature sculpting and conceptual design work were improved to match the Warzone stuff, it would be a winner for sure.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I've never heard Dreamforge described as sexist before, perhaps because the Eisenkern dudes' butts are just as pert. That is just a strange complaint.
Hasslefree is not a company I would put in the "not sexist" camp, however there are degrees. Their Libby minis portray a body type not often found in miniature wargames, which docks some points off the sexism score card for some people. Still, I cringed at the two vikings Kev sculpted for Bones 3. (Not because they are nude necessarily, but because of the cheesy poses and cynical nature of the nudity.)
Frankly, KDM has so many more problematic things going on than pin-ups that it feels like wondering if there's sexism in Hentai.
This is my point though: the idea that there are "degrees" is not founded in something measurable, nor is it respected by the most strident feminist critics. The person that complains about the butts of DFG troopers may seem crazy to you (or to me), but a prominent 'feminist critic' not so long ago spent quite a lot of time talking about the pressing issue of... butts in video gaming. The complaint of sexism mostly mostly seems a proxy for quality and aesthetics, and to a certain degree reflects feelings about the producer rather then the product.
Prodos suffers from the (largely self-inflicted) wound of having really messed up their AvP fulfillment (among other things). I'm not saying that all criticism of this new line can be attributed to that (recall that I have consistently argued the original sculpts were lacking aesthetically), but I think the willingness of many people to believe there is some hard line between, for example, Hasslefree and this lies (in no small part) in the differing impressions of the companies.
Again, note that I am not saying that all categorical differences are meaningless: Dreamforge is clearly not in the same genre as KD. DFG is a more realistic, hard(ish) sci-fi property, while KD is strongly influenced by body horror and high fantasy tropes. I think it's entirely reasonable to classify things according to "realistic" and "Fantastic", but "sexist"/"non-sexist" is a largely if not totally meaningless classification.
BrookM wrote: Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...
Much of the body horror contains elements of rape. I wasn't calling KDM hentai, but rather saying that like with hentai there are many more issues with KDM than just the tits.
...
To be fair though, body horror is closely and classically associated with rape and rape imagery: the defining classic in this being (I would argue) Alien, which is just chock full of rape imagery.
The rest of your points, about quality, I agree with. The new versions (with "shirts") aren't simply 'non-sexist', I think they objectively look better.
I have to disagree about the "degrees" thing. There are plenty of degrees to sexism, as well as to other forms of bigotry. Paying women less for the same work is sexism of a lower degree than refusing to hire women because they belong in a kitchen. For example, Sedition Wars' female Samaritans had reasonable armor, yet their arched-back booty poses added a degree of sexism that some overlook and many more notice without it being a dealbreaker, which is very different from the early Space Crusade renders. Just because some people can't differentiate degrees doesn't mean we all have to pretend that all sexism is equal. This isn't Harrison Bergeron (nor Henrietta Bergeron, whose tits and cheeks poke out through the chains).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I have to disagree about the "degrees" thing. There are plenty of degrees to sexism, as well as to other forms of bigotry. Paying women less for the same work is sexism of a lower degree than refusing to hire women because they belong in a kitchen. For example, Sedition Wars' female Samaritans had reasonable armor, yet their arched-back booty poses added a degree of sexism that some overlook and many more notice without it being a dealbreaker, which is very different from the early Space Crusade renders. Just because some people can't differentiate degrees doesn't mean we all have to pretend that all sexism is equal. This isn't Harrison Bergeron (nor Henrietta Bergeron, whose tits and cheeks poke out through the chains).
I think its important to point out, I fundamentally disagree that it is appropriate to use the terms 'sexism' or 'bigotry' with regards to models. That said, I must point out that my feelings are not the basis of my point: those "people [that] can't differentiate degrees" are feminists,
Incidentally, let's also be clear that you are agreeing with me that Hasslefree and Prodos are both in what you would broadly refer to as "the sexist camp". Which, needless to say, is a direct challenge to what Artemis Black is stating.
I was going to go on a long, wordy bit about sexism, feminism, etc, etc, but let's be reasonable: I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. It's nothing to do with this product, but a lifetimes worth of experiences, reasoning and moral/philosophical differences.
So I'll avoid that and leave it at 'agree to dissagree' on the sexism, but I think we're both in agreement that the newer sculpts actually look pretty good, yes? I mean, some of this is good stuff;
These actually look pretty good. Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?
BrookM wrote: Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...
Much of the body horror contains elements of rape. I wasn't calling KDM hentai, but rather saying that like with hentai there are many more issues with KDM than just the tits.
Anyway, as far as this project is concerned, I personally find bigger issues with the stupidity of the clothing and poses than with the TnA itself. If they have forcefields, just make them all go Dr Manhattan and get it done with. Huge armored shoulders and naked navels are a stupid combination worthy of derision no matter who is wearing it. It's embarrassing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: I recently acquired some Warzone minis, and the resin casting and quality is on par with the greats like Paulson. If the Crusaders miniature sculpting and conceptual design work were improved to match the Warzone stuff, it would be a winner for sure.
I personally find KDM to be rather misogynistic as females are often depicted in victimized roles, which I find more problematic than T&A.
In most of Hasslefree's line you see depictions of empowered women, in which case nudity is inapposite. Much like Yrsa the Accursed from RBG depicts a strong woman with a confident and assertive bearing.
Does the lack of clothing sexually objectify Yrsa?
No. And I believe that is an objective, not subjective, determination. It is not an issue of aesthetics, it is an objective issue of human body language.
The Space Crusade models and artwork that we are discussing are sexually objectifying. I do not think it is an issue of aesthetics. You can have a 'good' and a 'bad' drawing of sexually objectified female. The execution is immaterial.
Edit: And Bob is absolutely right that there are degrees of sexism. I personally do not feel that nudity, on its own, equates to any degree of sexual objectification. Quite the contrary, I think that viewing nudity as sexualized is part of the problem, e.g. breastfeeding in public.
Viewing the female breast as a sexual object to the point that a woman is ridiculed for nourishing a child is, in my view, a problem. Prodos's artwork on display in this thread contributes to that problem because it communicates that women, and female bodies, are predominantly sexual objects in a way that a model like Yrsa absolutely does not.
In various circles it's possible to differentiate between porn that's well done, or that contains positive reinforcement of progressive values, from porn that's poorly done or that reinforces negative stereotypes.
So, yeah, "_____ and bad" and "____ and good" are important distinctions to make.
...which is entirely subjective, of course. I'm happy to stick with somewhat realistic and well-sculpted and not very realistic and not-so-well-sculpted because there will always be a significant number of people who like or dislike all nudity. Of course in your porn example, I'm sure some of the Prodos proportions are actually quite accurate. Clearly their concept art uses photographs of models as the base point, certainly for the female portraiture element.
But pretending that one of these companies and their products somehow holds the high moral ground is just silly. As silly as this was...
Buzzsaw wrote: Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?
I've had no issues buying from them. It does take awhile for stuff to get here. I'd probably buy more if they had a warehouse or place selling within the US though.
If someone would like, please start up a thread in Dakka Discussions (or even Off-Topic) and link to it here to talk about general depictions of women / men / nudity / etc in miniatures. If it's not about miniatures, then it's really not pertinent and should definitely go in Off-Topic.
But for this thread in News & Rumors, the topic is the game from the OP by Prodos, and the miniatures related to it. So, let's return to discussing that and not the broader tangent we have been on!
Buzzsaw wrote: These actually look pretty good. Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?
I know that some US Warzone players have problems finding US stockists and it can take a month or two for the newer products to reach your shores.. thus I think many order from Prodos directly. Shipping to the EU seems to be about 10 days, so I can imagine it's 2 weeks or more to the US. While their resin is pretty durable, the packaging for warzone blisters isn't very robust so it hasn't been uncommon to hear that stuff has arrived broken. The AvP packaging is much better and I am sure the Space Crusade stuff will be too, so I wouldn't have any worries there.
And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).
But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.
I'll agree with you to an extent, but at the same time, you couldn't claim that much of Kev's stuff is anything but gratuitous nudity. HF isn't alone in this of course, aside from the other companies listed, Reaper has more than their fair share as well. And we know why (in Reaper's case - they sell damned well.) With Hasslefree, my gut tells me that it's a combination of nudes selling well along with Kev simply sculpting what he enjoys. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.
I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.
Sure, but that's a basic point, innit? Everyone thinks their own products are fine. Angelos, the Shieldwolf guy swears blue that his figures are better sculpts than AoW or Mierce. It's a natural reaction for anyone who believes in their product. Even the Prodos guy feels that his sculpts are peachy-keen. I mean, when we get to Poots he might want to go with an explanation first before showing them to Theo's family, but even in your own range there's a big difference between these two.
NSFW
I went with the metal 54mm because the anatomy is less ...obvious.
The first of yours (Kev's) there is a very classical sculpt. The second is pure 1980's-1990's. Now neither I nor my family are particularly easily offended, but I could show the first to my co-workers and while some might think it a little gratuitous, I'm confident that they would see the classical influence that would override any discomfort or shock from the nudity. The second one (or the topless female dwarf slayer, etc)? Well, in all honesty I think it'd get the same reaction by and large that the Prodos figures would get.
I think what it comes down to in many ways is that the Prodos stuff offends you personally (which is fine) but you're having trouble stepping back and seeing the bigger perspective on it.
Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.
You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.
The Prodos stuff - ridiculous as it is - I definitely agree with that - actually has a lot more in common with Anime and Manga (and Japanese videogame) design elements. It's much more that, shoved into a 40k-style shell than something especially 80's or 90's. With badly-sculpted balloon breasts.
Spoilered for size.
But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection
Well, that's gonna happen when you wade in and start slinging mud, given that there are direct points of comparison between the two companies. In fact, if I were even slightly cynical, I might think you're here and so invested in this thread at least in part for marketing purposes. You've got double the amount of posts here than in the actual HF thread!
Oh, while you're here - are the Greek decals printed on decal sheets or are they individual decals? And do any of them come in white? They might be exactly what I'm after for a current project.
Glad I noticed your reply in that bottom window before I hit send Replied over there too
Buzzsaw wrote: These actually look pretty good. Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?
I know that some US Warzone players have problems finding US stockists and it can take a month or two for the newer products to reach your shores.. thus I think many order from Prodos directly. Shipping to the EU seems to be about 10 days, so I can imagine it's 2 weeks or more to the US. While their resin is pretty durable, the packaging for warzone blisters isn't very robust so it hasn't been uncommon to hear that stuff has arrived broken. The AvP packaging is much better and I am sure the Space Crusade stuff will be too, so I wouldn't have any worries there.
Prodos only offered a $24 shipping option to the US and looks like that's translating to UPS 3 day.
Buzzsaw wrote: These actually look pretty good. Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?
I know that some US Warzone players have problems finding US stockists and it can take a month or two for the newer products to reach your shores.. thus I think many order from Prodos directly. Shipping to the EU seems to be about 10 days, so I can imagine it's 2 weeks or more to the US. While their resin is pretty durable, the packaging for warzone blisters isn't very robust so it hasn't been uncommon to hear that stuff has arrived broken. The AvP packaging is much better and I am sure the Space Crusade stuff will be too, so I wouldn't have any worries there.
Prodos only offered a $24 shipping option to the US and looks like that's translating to UPS 3 day.
Hmm, so only one shipping option? I suppose that's not entirely unreasonable, given that it's international (intercontinental!) shipping. It does somewhat limit the impulse buy options, heh.
RiTides wrote: Whoaaaa, we're Way off-topic in this thread!
If someone would like, please start up a thread in Dakka Discussions (or even Off-Topic) and link to it here to talk about general depictions of women / men / nudity / etc in miniatures. If it's not about miniatures, then it's really not pertinent and should definitely go in Off-Topic.
But for this thread in News & Rumors, the topic is the game from the OP by Prodos, and the miniatures related to it. So, let's return to discussing that and not the broader tangent we have been on!
Thanks all
Can this thread be "pruned" for those of us actually interested in the product. Its a complete mess.
It's extremely unlikely that the thread will be purged of whatever posts you dislike. Just carry on with (most of) the tangent moved elsewhere. Though criticism and praise of Prodos designs will naturally remain here, as it's on-topic.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
I feel their is a difference between this and marvel beefcake. Marvel has plenty of hot dudes in their stuff. But they are never wearing anything or presented in away that feels like it's putting them on display.
These minis have holes cut into their armour to put them on display to be gawked at. Capt. America doesn't have huge parts of his suit cut out so I can get a better look at his ass.
A character can be sexy and still be a cool character. But the design of these minis are just so uncreative.
For sure, I don't disagree with what you are saying regarding the use of sex in Marvel character design and the use here by Prodos. I was merely commenting on the position presented by others that women aren't titillated by nude males and instead those images are only provided as a male power fantasy, or for homosexual males. In my experience that hasn't been the case. Women are sexual beings and hot dudes with muscles appeal to many women.
I didn't say women aren't sexual or that strong/fit men aren't appealing to them.
I was simply pointing out that a number of heterosexual women I know weren't enticed enough by the thought of a shirtless Thor to overcome their lack of desire to watch a superhero movi;.
which as a genre isn't all that appealing to them.
I suspect the effect of "hot bodies" in movies in increasing appeal to males or females is marginal. That is, they make every movie a little better, but it probably isn't enough to make people happy to drop 20$ and two hours watching the movie if it is otherwise terrible. A half decent movie on the other hand could be moved into pretty good territory by the inclusion. My wife likes super hero/fantasy stuff, and having a good looking lead is something she likes. Or at least she really dislikes ugly leads; it didn't stop her marrying me, but she was pretty cold on the newer James Bond movies for a while due to distaste for the rougher Bond.
Looks like the biggest limitation is leg and torso pose is fixed, you've only got arms to try play around with. Over all the end product looks pretty spot on compared to what was advertised, still not my cup of tea.
Good to see Prodos actually shipping stuff when they say they will.
So, at this point all the Prodos naysayers can start telling me you told me so. I was assembling the minis and realized they shipped me the wrong arms for the Mamoona (some large sword arms that go to an unidentified mini that, while large, are not large enough to fit on her). I opened a ticket about two business days (theirs) ago and have gotten nary a response, not even an acknowledgement that someone has seen it. They've got 2 hours left before COB Friday, but I'm not holding out much hope based on other's experiences.
Nothing to gain by saying told ya so, I'm still in the same boat either way.
I've been e-mailing them fortnightly for the past 6 weeks requesting a confirmation my AvP pledge has been processed correctly on my end. Still no response. I'm aware talking about AvP isn't part of this topic, this is just a comment on lack of customer service response. They don't operate a call center, so not replying to e-mails being the only form of contact is pretty poor.
Have you tried PMing their rep here to see if he can fix the issue? Would be interesting to see the results of that. But then again he was warned about us .
skarsol wrote: So, at this point all the Prodos naysayers can start telling me you told me so. I was assembling the minis and realized they shipped me the wrong arms for the Mamoona (some large sword arms that go to an unidentified mini that, while large, are not large enough to fit on her). I opened a ticket about two business days (theirs) ago and have gotten nary a response, not even an acknowledgement that someone has seen it. They've got 2 hours left before COB Friday, but I'm not holding out much hope based on other's experiences.
Dunno if I'm considered a "naysayer" but I'm certainly someone who was dubious. I'd much rather see them turn around and handle you properly with an apology and send your missing stuff promptly than "told you so" though. I'm not a complete dick.
Theophony wrote: Have you tried PMing their rep here to see if he can fix the issue? Would be interesting to see the results of that. But then again he was warned about us .
How quickly do they usually respond? If they respond in a week, but always respond well, then that's kinda okay, if annoying. If they respond after random intervals, then that's way more annoying. Even just a "hey, got your ticket, we'll address it within X days" or similar would be good instead of just having us shout into the void.
Edit: Guessing it's Monday morning there now, just got a response that they're sending replacements. Great response, just spoiled a bit by the days of not knowing if anyone had seen my request or not.
A demon dude! (No junk hanging out since this is a PG-13 month I guess. )
Spoiler:
Another large demon chick. Note, this one is almost 2 inches taller than the Mamoona, so not sure how they'll look together. Maybe they're counting her sword as height? Interestingly, now I know what model the two swords they sent me belong to!
Spoiler:
More developed render of the good girls not-terminator hero.
Spoiler:
A colorized version of the winged bad girl demon hero.
Spoiler:
The bad girl not-terminator hero.
Spoiler:
And not real sure where this one fits in, but a good girl hero of some sort.
Spoiler:
Neither T nor A to be found! Means this month is a bust for me since none of the hero models with fit aestetically with the troops from last month, no need for yet another male demon prince model, and too unsure of the scale on the Belzeeba to risk 35 pounds and $Texas shipping. Not really sure who's going to buy the heroes this month as without the T&A aspect the sculpts are fairly meh IMO. The underwire tabards are just weird.
Another large demon chick. Note, this one is almost 2 inches taller than the Mamoona, so not sure how they'll look together. Maybe they're counting her sword as height? Interestingly, now I know what model the two swords they sent me belong to!
Spoiler:
So, looking at the description of the board game, they also say Mamoona is 11cm tall, and that's a flat out lie, so Belzeeba might be the same scale after all.
Edit: Although I guess if they measure to the top of her weapon instead of actual height she might be. But I don't have the weapon! ~
I like the human-sized models of that latest lot. The big demoness needs a better pair of horns - the current ones make her look like a doofus (technical term).
I haven't really been following since the initial posts and all of a sudden, people are wearing clothes and proper armor. Did Prodos redesign them based on feedback or something?
I also noticed that this is now being called "Space Crusaders" instead of "Space Crusade."
Space Crusade is the boxed game which contains Space Crusaders. And yes, they're making PG13 versions of their T&A models in order to appease the complainers.
skarsol wrote: Space Crusade is the boxed game which contains Space Crusaders. And yes, they're making PG13 versions of their T&A models in order to appease the complainers.
Oddly enough, the PG13 ones look awesome.
This last lot I really like, I second that the one with the shield and the sideways firearm is stunning.
The frontal nudity in "not" terminator armor was melting my brain over the tenuous need for reality so I offer thanks.
skarsol wrote: Space Crusade is the boxed game which contains Space Crusaders. And yes, they're making PG13 versions of their T&A models in order to appease the complainers.
Oddly enough, the PG13 ones look awesome.
This last lot I really like, I second that the one with the shield and the sideways firearm is stunning.
The frontal nudity in "not" terminator armor was melting my brain over the tenuous need for reality so I offer thanks.
Yes, I personally find the 'PG13' sculpts to be simply better balanced, I'm actually temped by some of them, though I must admit that the reports of missing and damaged parts above is somewhat worrying...
To be fair with the missing/damaged, out of I think 7 SKUs, only 1 had an issue and they sent weapons for demonA instead of demonB. It took 3 business days for a response, but they said they shipped replacements without questioning me. If they shipped the same speed as my order, they should get here today I think.
Winged hero sort of has demon Lorgar head crown going on. Just do female primarchs already! Yellow Fist Lady and Angel Vampire would go over pretty well I think! Pretty sure if they did an Emperress' Kids primarch it has a chance of being less ridiculous than the official one :-)
The sheer difference in quality between SC models and FW Primarchs is staggering, and this is before we account for the inevitable wasp-waist 'Primarchs'.
Barzam wrote: I haven't really been following since the initial posts and all of a sudden, people are wearing clothes and proper armor. Did Prodos redesign them based on feedback or something?
I also noticed that this is now being called "Space Crusaders" instead of "Space Crusade."
I have heard rumors of companies that respond to 'feedback' and conduct 'market research' but I always discounted them as these things
are otiose in a niche.
Barzam wrote: I haven't really been following since the initial posts and all of a sudden, people are wearing clothes and proper armor. Did Prodos redesign them based on feedback or something?
I also noticed that this is now being called "Space Crusaders" instead of "Space Crusade."
I wouldn't call this armour anywhere near 'proper', but it's a step forward.
While you people were looking at Nightwing's bum, I was appreciating the art. Starfire got shot in the breast; That's hilarious
On topic tho': The game doesn't look terribly interesting. I can live without the models.
If GW made a campaign-style game where Sisters/Inquisition had to take down a Chaos cult- and do it with limited non-replaceable units to determine success or failure. That would be pretty cool.
Here we have some quick photos of 1 piece, Space Crusade board game miniatures, yes, 1 piece, no assembly required manufactured using a hybrid of plastic and resin (no it's not restic or PVC!).
I'll post a bit more about our new manufacturing process later, as I believe it's a game changer for the industry, especially in board game miniatures production/cost/quality departments (0_o sorry really excited engineer here!)
HudsonD wrote: One-piece, no assembly for those ? That's kind of impressive.
Actually... yes, yes it is. And the resin gun&shield sister looks much, much better than the renders.
On a technical level, it's very impressive - kudos. On a consumer level, I'd rather models didn't go back to the days of integral bases (no matter how nice) - if there was a way of designing the figures to have say a peg in the foot and a hole to match in the base without driving up unit production costs they would be even nicer.
I wish the really excited engineer could give some of his excitement to the CS/QA departments. Still no replacement arms. No response to my request for a tracking number. No response to my message about the possible scale differences between Mamoona and Belzeeba.
skarsol wrote: I wish the really excited engineer could give some of his excitement to the CS/QA departments. Still no replacement arms. No response to my request for a tracking number. No response to my message about the possible scale differences between Mamoona and Belzeeba.
Hi there, I am sorry but 1st time I am hearing about any quality issues from you sir. could you please contact Bogusz, our customer service team member at sales3@prodosgames.com. I am sure he will get that sort out for you. Please CC your email to service@prodos.co.uk as well. Alternatively please Pm me via dakkadakka.com.
HudsonD wrote: One-piece, no assembly for those ? That's kind of impressive.
Actually... yes, yes it is. And the resin gun&shield sister looks much, much better than the renders.
On a technical level, it's very impressive - kudos. On a consumer level, I'd rather models didn't go back to the days of integral bases (no matter how nice) - if there was a way of designing the figures to have say a peg in the foot and a hole to match in the base without driving up unit production costs they would be even nicer.
This manufacturing process is only cost effective for board game miniatures. Based from collected feedback, fully assembled miniatures are the only solution to have your product in toys stores.
Quite much, some retailers refuse to stock boardgames that have miniatures that require assembly and the assembly part if it is not a 1-2 pieces snap to fit gets a generally negative review from boardgamers.
Intriguing once piece cast tech, it will bring you some attention for contract work for sure, what is the material like? how flexible? can it be casted in different colours? clear material? clear tinted material?
gunslingerpro wrote: Those one piece models are pretty impressive. My interest in this game has spiked a bit.
Same here. Even if they weren't one-piece I was still blown away by the cast quality. I am really digging the not-chaos terminator chic and the shield bearing shooter.
Here we have some quick photos of 1 piece, Space Crusade board game miniatures, yes, 1 piece, no assembly required manufactured using a hybrid of plastic and resin (no it's not restic or PVC!).
I'll post a bit more about our new manufacturing process later, as I believe it's a game changer for the industry, especially in board game miniatures production/cost/quality departments (0_o sorry really excited engineer here!)
So the boxed board game you are taking preorders for will contain these 1 piece miniatures and not the resin miniatures that you're selling currently?
Well I got my little cheesecake army in the mail. I know these girls are not to everyone's taste design wise. But the sculpting, detail and casts are amazing.
Super detailed and very crisp. They are also nice and tall and fit perfect next to my little true scale marine experiment.
Here we have some quick photos of 1 piece, Space Crusade board game miniatures, yes, 1 piece, no assembly required manufactured using a hybrid of plastic and resin (no it's not restic or PVC!).
I'll post a bit more about our new manufacturing process later, as I believe it's a game changer for the industry, especially in board game miniatures production/cost/quality departments (0_o sorry really excited engineer here!)
So the boxed board game you are taking preorders for will contain these 1 piece miniatures and not the resin miniatures that you're selling currently?
Hi there, yes, all miniatures in the board game are 1 piece models, same goes for hero models we have got on pre-order.
There is a bit of a disconnect between the lightweight padded undersuit and the mega-heavy clunky boots and gauntlets. Almost like they are rushing off to battle only half dressed in their gear. I like the individual parts, just not together.
If you built up the whole model to the level of the armored bits, that would be fine.
If you took the padded undersuit, and had some lightweight reinforcements, that would be fine.
Definitely looks like a boob window to me. It's amazing how warzone can post in this thread where they are trying to get money out of people but won't post in the thread where they actually have to deliver the product people have paid for.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: Definitely looks like a boob window to me. It's amazing how warzone can post in this thread where they are trying to get money out of people but won't post in the thread where they actually have to deliver the product people have paid for.
In the other thread, people are mean, asking them questions and pointing out when they are dishonest.
rayphoton wrote: Well I got my little cheesecake army in the mail. I know these girls are not to everyone's taste design wise. But the sculpting, detail and casts are amazing.
Super detailed and very crisp. They are also nice and tall and fit perfect next to my little true scale marine experiment.
Over all..I'm super impressed
Well done Prodoss
Is there any chance you could do a comparison pic of a few of them with a space marine, marine terminator (chaos or reg) and a sister of battle if you happen to own any of those models
rayphoton wrote: Well I got my little cheesecake army in the mail. I know these girls are not to everyone's taste design wise. But the sculpting, detail and casts are amazing.
Super detailed and very crisp. They are also nice and tall and fit perfect next to my little true scale marine experiment.
Over all..I'm super impressed
Well done Prodoss
Is there any chance you could do a comparison pic of a few of them with a space marine, marine terminator (chaos or reg) and a sister of battle if you happen to own any of those models
Would be really awesome
Thanks
I can and I will...let me dig out some terminators to do a comparison.
I was just watching the BOW weekender with an interview with prodos, was kinda impressed how they can have some fairly dynamic poses + a base and have them be all 1-piece sculpts. Are they really detailed like metal or resin? or are they flimsy "board game minis" ? Painted pics look good but I don't know if those are resin masters or the production minis..?
rayphoton wrote: Well I got my little cheesecake army in the mail. I know these girls are not to everyone's taste design wise. But the sculpting, detail and casts are amazing.
Super detailed and very crisp. They are also nice and tall and fit perfect next to my little true scale marine experiment.
Over all..I'm super impressed
Well done Prodoss
Is there any chance you could do a comparison pic of a few of them with a space marine, marine terminator (chaos or reg) and a sister of battle if you happen to own any of those models
Would be really awesome
Thanks
As requested
From left to right
BOC Marine i attempted to scale up by adding some putty the connection points, a normal marine, a cheesecake marine, a cheese cake termy and a true scale marine I made using termy legs
Afternoon Dakkdakka, something we are working on for SC, a Heroine (one piece model) in this style will be added to the Main SC box, in both versions (to be shown next week).
A squad of 5 Anubis Warriors (assembly required) will be available next month.
The models look a lot more internally coherent then most of your previous ones. Can’t say I’m all that fond the theme, but they are a solid representation of female wolf things in heavy armor.
Those look very nice! Those claws are great, as is their hair. I'd not have a use for dog ladies, but I'd definitely get some of those if their heads could be swapped out easily.
That's substantially better.
Like the sisters corsets or the Astartes gap beneath the breastplate, I can reason that the 'undersuit' includes ribbing to support the top half of the power armour.
It looks substantially more flexible than Astartes plate but more protective than Sororitas.
Those gals look much better. I really wasn't a fan of the missing breastplate look they had before, but all the new sculpts they add keep getting better.
So the replacement Mamoona arms finally got to me after what seems like forever and they're decent. Way more mold slip than in the previous shipment, but it's through the organic portions, so I guess yay Nurgle? Not worth messing with another replacement attempt.
They did toss in one of the new one piece models (Nyx) for my troubles and I have to say that they've got some kind of magic process going on for these. Based on the mold line it looks like a standard two piece mold (with very minor slippage) but the flash left on it seems to indicate much smaller feed/vent lines.
Got in the Belzeeba. More molding issues that are going to be pretty difficult to fix. Also, their scale is weird. Both Mamoona and Belzeeba are shown on their website as being 110mm but Belzeeba is a good inch taller than Mamoona if you go by eyes/top of head, and a half inch taller if you go by the tip of the raised weapons. Belzeeba is right about 110mm to the eyes, but Mamoona is closer to 75mm scale.
That said, if it weren't for the molding issues, Belzeeba would be 5 inches of cool model. Unfortunate that she towers over Mamoona.
skarsol wrote: Got in the Belzeeba. More molding issues that are going to be pretty difficult to fix. Also, their scale is weird. Both Mamoona and Belzeeba are shown on their website as being 110mm but Belzeeba is a good inch taller than Mamoona if you go by eyes/top of head, and a half inch taller if you go by the tip of the raised weapons. Belzeeba is right about 110mm to the eyes, but Mamoona is closer to 75mm scale.
That said, if it weren't for the molding issues, Belzeeba would be 5 inches of cool model. Unfortunate that she towers over Mamoona.
That's substantially better. Like the sisters corsets or the Astartes gap beneath the breastplate, I can reason that the 'undersuit' includes ribbing to support the top half of the power armour. It looks substantially more flexible than Astartes plate but more protective than Sororitas.
skarsol wrote: Got in the Belzeeba. More molding issues that are going to be pretty difficult to fix. Also, their scale is weird. Both Mamoona and Belzeeba are shown on their website as being 110mm but Belzeeba is a good inch taller than Mamoona if you go by eyes/top of head, and a half inch taller if you go by the tip of the raised weapons. Belzeeba is right about 110mm to the eyes, but Mamoona is closer to 75mm scale.
That said, if it weren't for the molding issues, Belzeeba would be 5 inches of cool model. Unfortunate that she towers over Mamoona.
You'll be needing coherent male sculpts for it fo actually feel like an integrated force. How about something like this:
Too tame, maybe? Guess it needs legs/arms protection, though.
The Zardoz Brutal Exterminators army already exist: its the Necromunda Goliath
Honestly, I think that's nitpicking, considering what else we happily accept without an issue.
Nor was there any issue with this:
despite of the fact they had ridiculous cumbersome shoulder pad & shin-guard while their vital organs were fully exposed.
Of course in this time Kjell Nilsson Mad Max II BDSM praphernalia was more fashionable.
Perhaps because it those time there was less Internet access, even less female wargamer and even lesser ready to defend their male counter part.
I wonder if a new Necromunda box featuring Goliath vs Slaanesh cultist would release we would find as many women revealing to be gay & body-builder defender as the Space Crusade(r) project reveals so many (male) gamers as feminist?
Personally I fully support Prodos as myself I already worked on a "Scarlet Blade" (MMORPG) Space Crusade mode that was looking like this:
Many of prodos miniatures are EXACTLY what I was searching to complete my game.
(actually I have allready ordered some and wait for the delivery)
If Prodos needs a non-GW franchise they choose contact Aeria Games that stops the MMORPG.
Scarlet Blade fluff (post-apo) is very coherent:
The girls are called Arkana because they protect the Arks (name of underground cryogenic complex where humanity is surviving).
They are cyborg, this means, Schwarzenegger T-500 they don't need clothes their additional "armor" is just an additional one for articulation (shoulder, knee, elbow) or part subject to worn-out (feets).
Their body parts (belly, head) are ALREADY bullet proof or don't content vital organ (*) by conception so chest/body armor is nothing but useless.
(*) no lungs, no digestive tube as they don't breath (no poison gaz hazard nor drowing) nor eat (except potion but it could be just oil, fuel additive or liquid with nanobots)
This would be a good explanation for the Space Crusader bare skin: they are cyborg not human.
Infinity player may also look at the "Bioroïds" in "Appleseed" manga/anime their game is inspired from.
100mm tall spiky demon? Yeah, that's my kinda thing. The photo there looks kind of flat, but the 3d render has a lot of depth with the tail and cloak it has on.
Might have to fiddle with the limp looking left arm.
Hope the cast turns out decent.
Kind of tempted now to get the Belzeeba and paint her up like a Bloodthirster...
Hi Warzone
Have you sold enough product that you can afford to update the AvP backers on why there are still so many of us who have recieved absolutely nothing?
Joyboozer wrote: Hi Warzone
Have you sold enough product that you can afford to update the AvP backers on why there are still so many of us who have recieved absolutely nothing?
Don't worry. Miniaturemarket has them in stock and at a discount. Plus their retail store has had multiple copies 5-6 on it's dinged and dented shelf for over a month now at 50% off and I snagged a set for 60% off. So at least someone is getting the goods .
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Kind of tempted now to get the Belzeeba and paint her up like a Bloodthirster...
The Skarbrand axes are almost a perfect match to replace her swords. Not sure why she has another Axe on her hip, but hey, axes for the axe god I guess.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Kind of tempted now to get the Belzeeba and paint her up like a Bloodthirster...
The Skarbrand axes are almost a perfect match to replace her swords. Not sure why she has another Axe on her hip, but hey, axes for the axe god I guess.
I case she rolls that fumble on the chart where your weapon slides across the room and under the fridge, never to be seen again!
Well, as I don't see either a lot of Work In Progress on the basic Space Crusade box (event/equipment, card art work, floor-plan,..) I'm staring work on my own (private) Spacequest.
I will be simply using
- Heroquest boardgame
- Space Crusade dice (found some 2nd hand one)
- W40K mini (Orc->Ork, Chaos Warrior=>GW Chaos Marine or Prodos Maras, Skeleton=>Nekron,...)
- Space Hulk doors
- Heroquest missions
They will be relocated in Sci-Fi
For example "The Rescue of Sir Ragnar" will be renamed "The Rescue of Captain Roger" in memory of Space Quest X: Latex Babes of Estros
The heroes:
- Mage: psycher (keeping same HQ spell to start with)
- Elf: Eldar Scout or Banshee
- Barbarian: Catachan Guard, Necromunda Goliath or Prodos Space Crusader (painted "Red Sonja" style)
- Dwarf too bad I have no squat :( but Techmarine or Infinity Hacker would do disarm trap
- Dwarf too bad I have no squat :( but Techmarine or Infinity Hacker would do disarm trap
Mantic Forge Fathers would work, wouldn't they?
Skarsol- have you done any more work on Belzeeba? I know you mentioned the casting being a difficult job to fix. My biggest worry with resin Prodos stuff is it suffering from weak ankles like some of the first larger Warzone Resurrection models or Blaine on his dino mount.
Is your demon girl stable at least?
Plus now that you mention it, I'm sure I have quite a few parts leftover from my Skarbrand kit. I probably could rig the lady into a good and proper Axe for the Axe God follower...
Skarsol- have you done any more work on Belzeeba? I know you mentioned the casting being a difficult job to fix. My biggest worry with resin Prodos stuff is it suffering from weak ankles like some of the first larger Warzone Resurrection models or Blaine on his dino mount.
Is your demon girl stable at least?
Plus now that you mention it, I'm sure I have quite a few parts leftover from my Skarbrand kit. I probably could rig the lady into a good and proper Axe for the Axe God follower...
The large deamons are... large, and not skinny. There's no real chance of Belzeeba or Mamoona losing a limb. If you look at the pic I posted, the thinnest part of Belzeeba's leg is still like 1/4 thick. The resin has a little flex to it, so it's not brittle at all. On Belzeeba the part I'm most worried about breaking is the horns since they're so long and they taper in right before joining the head. I replaced them with pinned GW horns on one of them.
Barzam wrote: I haven't really been following since the initial posts and all of a sudden, people are wearing clothes and proper armor. Did Prodos redesign them based on feedback or something?
I also noticed that this is now being called "Space Crusaders" instead of "Space Crusade."
I have heard rumors of companies that respond to 'feedback' and conduct 'market research' but I always discounted them as these things
are otiose in a niche.
I know people love to make this joke, but as somebody who has worked in market research, it was quite clear from the language that Games Workshop wasn't conducting market research to try to find new market segments to sell to, and not that they weren't listening to feedback. The kind of market research they were talking about was irrelevant because they already knew who their customers were, in terms of typical age, gender, socioeconomic status, etc.
Forgive my terrible photo, but that there is Archon hanging out with Skulltaker on his base.
Pretty close in size, and that sword is huge. Casting was nice and crisp. Very impressive in terms of sized and presence. That huge cape is large enough to work as a battle standard for a monstrous infantry unit!
Unfortunately Prodos forgot to put the base in the box, or the thing's tail, so I'm kind of stuck waiting on parts before I can build it and really enjoy it.
Kriegspiel wrote: Who do you prefer to follow the red string cheerleader or the egg head supervisor?
Egghead. He is stupid enough not to wear an helmet on the battlefield, so it is probably a bad choice, but the other choice is… a death wish?
If she lives long enough to be a squad leader in that get up, she probably knows what she's doing. However, female marines are super heretical, so I'm going with generic bald guy.
Kriegspiel wrote: Not a problem for her, she's got plenty of spare clones ready & waiting to respawn:
I am not going to comment on the idea to send all the clones to die a painful and obvious death one at a time instead of as a massive wave…
I found a review of the game though, but it is kind of NSFW (the game is, so the review too…) hence I am going to put it in spoilers.
Spoiler:
Basically it's light erotica mixed with the most basic MMO gameplay?
Which I always found was a terrible, terrible adaptation of the splendid arcoflagellant concept. It makes sense and is terribly grimdark to turn someone into a disposable living weapon, it just shows a massive disregard for human rights. It makes no freaking sense to make a perfectly fine giant robot of stompy, sawwy, flammy death obsolete by leaving the driver exposed.
In Scarlet Blade MMORPG, the heroines (aka Arkanas) were cyborgs and their knowledge works the same way as the Cylons "Skinjobs can download their consciousness into another body when the body they are using dies" or in a "Resurrection Ship" in Battlestar Galactica
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_%28reimagining%29#Reproduction
Knowing the cost of a full power armor, perhaps using "expendable clones" is a better economic choice when opposed to so many armor-piercing Nekron gun, or Genestealer claws.
Just like in WW2 for the USSR, the death of 100 costless conscripts was more affordable than the lost of a single expensive tank.
or for ISIS today who gets more easily midless fanatics (who join for free) than weapons to equip them.
Which I always found was a terrible, terrible adaptation of the splendid arcoflagellant concept. It makes sense and is terribly grimdark to turn someone into a disposable living weapon, it just shows a massive disregard for human rights. It makes no freaking sense to make a perfectly fine giant robot of stompy, sawwy, flammy death obsolete by leaving the driver exposed.
Isn't putting the penitent in obvious danger the whole point? Its like what the Soviets did to disgraced soldiers assigned to penal regiments in WW2; if they survived a combat injury or performed admirably in combat, they are forgiven. Considering how ramshackle the engine looks, I daresay the machine being incapacited is the least of the Imperium's worries.
Kriegspiel wrote: In Scarlet Blade MMORPG, the heroines (aka Arkanas) were cyborgs and their knowledge works the same way as the Cylons "Skinjobs can download their consciousness into another body when the body they are using dies" or in a "Resurrection Ship" in Battlestar Galactica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylon_%28reimagining%29#Reproduction
Knowing the cost of a full power armor, perhaps using "expendable clones" is a better economic choice when opposed to so many armor-piercing Nekron gun, or Genestealer claws.
Just like in WW2 for the USSR, the death of 100 costless conscripts was more affordable than the lost of a single expensive tank. or for ISIS today who gets more easily midless fanatics (who join for free) than weapons to equip them.
Expendable (bare skin) elite warrior (Legio Astartes) seems an oxymoron but as soon as the experience is preserve through death, the "body" became just a spare part just like a shoulder pad. The concept is old in Sci-fi, just look 2000 AD Rogue Trooper GIs (*)and their Dog Tags biochips who were just wearing some tank-tops while the other soldiers had chem-suits and sometimes even heavy armored ones http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/comics/2000adstrips/rogue/roguetrooper01.shtml GW Citadel even produced some of the minis! https://boardgamegeek.com/image/1717063/rogue-trooper
No, you are right Unless Probos comes in and tell us the marines are using clones.
Just like GW Space Marines are a mix of Frank Herbert's Dune Sardaukars & Lucas' Star Wars Clone/Stormtroopers
(Galactic Empire, Emperor elite, etc.)
Prodos Space Crusader seems to be a mix of GW/MB's 40K/Space Crusade SM & Aeria's Scarlet Blade Arkanas (bikini warrior concept)
Actually if SM are not clones like Clonetroopers or Arkanas, the progenoids glands
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Progenoid_Glands - make them being "partially" Primarchs clone
- at least the scouts less valuable than their equipment and the progenoids
Mixing a bare midriff Prodos Space Crusader with (classical) Space Crusade Marines is not very different than mixing scouts with Marines like in the Dark Templars squads...
Back to Prodos universe, look also the Madbs
http://shop.prodosgames.com/en/space-crusaders/238-mabs.html I think like rather than a woman in a Terminator Armor, It seems to be a machine possessing a woman body or displaying it, just like some Necrons wear human skin
Don't forget that Prodos has also the licence of Warzone / Mutant Chronicles
So we can supposed that some females suffered a transformation process similar to the one creating the Dark Symmetry Legionnaires where the (dead or alive) body is just a material like the others
The only difference with https://youtu.be/5Z8OMrWbKuQ?t=604 & https://youtu.be/5Z8OMrWbKuQ?t=4385 is that there are more mechanical parts
When you look at
You see that the 4 tiles making the (modular?) board will feature a "lost temple" and a "forgotten city" I hope they are set on Nero 10th planet...
At least the Mabs skin color is similar to the Nero's witches
What's the advantage of showing a topless "living female torso"? That the perverted secrets of the pervert designer (I speak about Dark Apostles not Prodos Staff)
Perhaps the body is just used as a pheromone generator (explaining the need of removing the clothes and fully exposing it), the brain as a psy converter to target better the human soldier?
The lack of protection on the body maybe a technical choice for the machine to ease its replacement when capturing a new one when the 1st one starts to root.
Isn't putting the penitent in obvious danger the whole point? Its like what the Soviets did to disgraced soldiers assigned to penal regiments in WW2; if they survived a combat injury or performed admirably in combat, they are forgiven.
Your peerfectly right: GW penitence engine could be given same explanation: when, in game term, the unit is destroyed, actually only the penitent is dead, the machine itself is most of the time still operational, just waiting another convicted to be put in place by a techno-priest or confessor.
Living the body exposed has finally (from the Imperium grim & dark priest) several advantages:
- better showing it, much scaring potential traitor/heretic/deserter
- easily removing the dead body after the punishment
- quickly replacing it for next battle during a 40 tournament
- having the victim suffering from heat, cold,...
- showing Dark Eldars that Imperium can do as cruel as the old Talos
- killing the victim if he or she turns again his camp without damaging the engine
I have to say, I really like both the Fully-Armored and the Bikini-armor versions. There's currently not that many good looking "Bikini Space Armor", I'm glad they are producing both versions.
Kriegspiel wrote: Mixing a bare midriff Prodos Space Crusader with (classical) Space Crusade Marines is not very different than mixing scouts with Marines like in the Dark Templars squads...
It really is. One is mixing lighter armor with heavier armor. The other one is mixing space marines with something entirely different that don't even feel like it's part of the same universe. If you want to do it, all power too you though.
But I can see why some FLGS would ask you not to use those models…
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Has there been any actual discussion of the game?
I mean, we know what the contents will be, but outside of that, have we seen rules? Gameplay?
I'm afraid just like Star Wars cosplayer made for Episode VII the "cosplay accurate character before the movie realease" trope, We have to do a "play the game before the rules release"
Actually the only "Space Crusade" product available from Prodos are the miniatures boxes, if you want to play you have to use GW rules (40K, Space Hulk/Crusade)
I'm wondering if Prodos is not waiting for the sales results of miniatures prior investing in game development.
I'm kind of curious about it. I've picked up a few pieces and I've been pleased with what I've gotten, despite the mutlipiece stuff missing parts.
Same for me, the miniatures are exactly what I expected, compare to Infinity and 40K ones, assembling them was a pleasure as most of them could stay without glue!
(the bolt & hole are very well cast and nearly as large as on MB ones, cyano glue works quite well on the resin once correctly cleaned with water & soap)
However, one of the Amazons came with a missing head but an extra arm :(
Reading how it was cumbersome for AvP player to get back some missing Predator limbs, I simply decided to reduce a GW Space Marine helmet to like a Knight Saber biker girl from Bubblegum Crisis rather than complaining & waiting for the missing head.
The Mabs were not only missing on base but were not identical (some with a slot, some plain).
Not a problem as I have enought extra GW ones butthat's a shame such a nice sculpting is spoiled by an awful packaging service.
Normally I will get soon my 2nd hand MB Heroquest (bought 40€ because of several missing miniature but as I have already everything from W40K and Prodos I didn't care)
Because of all these complains about AvP delay and the "Heroquest 25th syndrome" I was not really motivated for pre-ordering the Space Crusade box.
Until June I will therefore play the MB one and gently wait for rules comment and artwork on the cards as for MB, the event cards were a large contribution to the game immersion.
I remember how I was disappointed in Super Dungeon Explore (1st edition) by the use of generic of illustrations on treasure cards i.e. use of same sword picture for all weapons :(
If in June Prodos board game is still in preorder status, I will just by them another Crusaders box (telling them to check twice the content this time) and convert them with GW heavy weapons if the rocket launcher remains the only available one in the box.
My goal is to have a functional game (fully painted + 3D scenery) for a convention demo in summer holidays, not just something to dream about for X-Mas.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After the Blood Raven (played as BLOOD ANGELS)
here are the
IMPERIAL FISTS
ULTRAMARINES
in more or less "Codex version" (well more less than more...)
& in " bikini power armour" version
What should be the next gender bender ?
As GW already produce for Eldar: Banshees, female guardians, warlock and prophets I would suggest vs Space (Marines) Crusaders & Valkyries some Tau (Fire Warrior) Mujahiteen & Houris
Which one do you prefer
The Classic "no girl allowed" one
or the "pimp my game"(*) version using Prodos Mabs, Space Crusaders & Arkham AT-43 Tiamat
Full board views:
True story- Prodos got me my missing tail for my Archon within two week of me asking, which is pretty decent, keeping in mind that I'm on the other side of the globe.
They also included a base which he hadn't come with, but considering how huge the thing is, it barely even fits on it (seems a little bigger than the usual 60mm base).
I like the bodysuit Ultramarine you did Kriegspiel. Makes her look a lot less cheesecake-y, and a bit more like a competent soldier.
I went ahead and ordered some more Space Crusade stuff myself- a box of Inquisitors, Lamia, and Nyx.
I might do something similar with a bodysuit under the Inquisitor's armor. Maybe I'll do a bikini armor one just for the heck of it. Really curious to see the Unicast stuff in person myself.
Now if they could just release a few more big cool looking demons.
Curious as to what a Space Crusade style Bloodletter equivalent would look like...
I like the bodysuit Ultramarine you did Kriegspiel. Makes her look a lot less cheesecake-y, and a bit more like a competent soldier.
So you will probably also like Schwester Brunhild from Black Templar?
Actually IRL Teutonic Knights Order (aka Deutschritter) from which BT are based on is composed by both brotherhood (monks& priest) & sisterhood (nons)
http://www.deutschordensschwestern.de/ since originaly it was set to provide medical assistance form pilgrims then prussian colonist and you would expect a monk to be midwife. Of course there is no mixity in monastery covent.
Anyway Schwester Brunhild could perfectly be used as a Callidus ally joining a BT crusade against her chaos psycher target and who agreed that the best way to be accepted on a BT barge would be to wear (a light version) the BT scout equipment showing the black cross.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Callidus-Assassin
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Curious as to what a Space Crusade style Bloodletter equivalent would look like...
Good evening fellas, Kriegspiel pointed me here, so thought I would post my Mabs (Dark Mechanicus strike team) and Maras (Daemonettes with guns) here.
Did not read through the whole boob flame war, personally not sure why chaos whorshipper would bother with clothing ^^
Hhmm shame the poses destroy what little appeal the femirine had, the demons arnt so bad at least not the chunky ones. hopefully at some point gw makes a good update to SOB. Thank you for sharing, it is insightful to see them next to SM's, i hope you enjoy them.
Well I don't speak Russian or whatever the guy is speaking, but he pointed out enough air bubbles and mold lines in the video to show me the casting isn't that great. Plus the gates are so large on the feet that cutting those off will probably net you a lost foot every now and again. Lots of detail shown, but still Prodos.
Those are regular resin, yeah. Says so on the box even. Not sure why I didn't realize that when I ordered. Probably assumed Unicast since the heroes are.
Yes according to July 4th publication on http://prodosgames.com/blog/sneak-peek-at-space-crusade-development "Space Crusade is one of our new projects that we are working on, and we are getting closer and closer to release. While there is still plenty of new things to add, game itself is at very advanced stage.
Rules are being ironed out, current stage is technical review. So you can expect more information about game's rules soon.
MAIN BOARD
Meanwhile we are happy to share with you some of our Work in Progress pictures. Those are two levels available for Space Crusade - "The Lost Temple" and "Forgotten City".
CORE BOX CONTENT UPDATE
While you all know well most of the Space Crusade models, we have yet not shared with you "the minions" - the nasty little creatures who are Mamoona's little helpers. Those are known as Lesser Demons and Demonettes.
While minions are core game only, you can always already get minis for game from our online shop as separate add-ons."
As you can see, Prodos Amazones, despite their smaller bikes mix quite well with Space Marines bikers
to see close view click on these pictures
By the way, if she read this post, I want to give a great thank to my brunette wife who was my muse while painting this Amazone
This is how I feel when painting Prodos minis
Remember that alternative name of MB Space Crusade was Starquest in analogy to Heroquest.
Despite Heroquest was popular because its dungeon furniture (chests, bookshelves, altar, fireplace, throne, tomb,...) in addition to the doors, Space Crusade/Starquest provided only doors.
Therefore, in addition to Prodos minis, you can also make your Starquest epicer by using SF scenery from Spartan Miniatures ( http://www.spartangames.co.uk/products/spartan-scenics/accessories ) as I suggested before.
Here is now the result:
As Prodos SC basic box features a set of "one of each type" héroïnes (*) rather than a squad of the same type of troop, I hope then will find similar approach providing, at least crates or (explosive/toxic) barrels.
(*) 1 Crusader + 1 Inquisitor + 1 Walkyrie for the "good girls" VS 1 Mab + 1 Mara + 1 Syrin for the "bad girls"
According to the 82 cards description:
•30x Adventure Cards
•10x Artefact Cards
•15x Experience Cards
•15x Equipment Cards
•6x Hero Stat Cards
•6x Reinforcement Stat Cards
It look the game would be more a T-RPG with XP + equipment looting than pure tactical wargame.
There are already plenty of SF wargame but very few SF dungeon crawling.
Several people complain that even Star Wars Imperial Assault didn't really feature this.
(Did they expect to cumulate medikits like heal potion and find a light saber or a rocket launcher just by "searching room for treasure" or is the loot so rare?)
One of the reason I didn't by Doom boardgame was because corridors and rooms were empty compared to the ones in the video game.
Note that neither Space Hulk, Deathwatch Overkill nor Assassinorum: Execution Force provide any 3D scenery (except the door) so I opposite to Star Wars miniature, except wall, corner & doors, cover (like crate, table, desk,..) was inexistant.
If doing this (even in card board) Prodos would get advantage VS GW/MB...
Many people identified (wrongly) final boss Mamoona as some kind of misogynistic female version of Nurgle Great Unclean One because of its appearence
while her name was looking like the feminine of Hell Prince of Greed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
This idea of exchanging/mixing non-human spawn with human babies is quite common in fantasy mythology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changeling but also in SciFi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_(film)
Face Hugger Eggs that Giger Alien insert in both male or female also grown differently depending of species (human of Alien I & II, dog of Alien III)
W40K Genestealer also mix their DNA via a pseudo-kiss with their victim creating hybrids.
Kriegspiel wrote: Many people identified (wrongly) final boss Mamoona as some kind of misogynistic female version of Nurgle Great Unclean One because of its appearence
Well, it works perfectly as a female version of a Great Unclean (and let's be honest, all models work as female version of GW ones, being usable as proxy was part of the idea), and that is definitely not the model from the range that I would call misogynistic.
What should be the next gender bender ?
As GW already produce for Eldar: Banshees, female guardians, warlock and prophets I would suggest vs Space (Marines) Crusaders & Valkyries some Tau (Fire Warrior) Mujahiteen & Houris
Prodos official painter is skillful, but actually you get the mini unpainted. Moreover, the online shop photos shows only the front side of the minis and not the rocket launcher option that is both in Crusaders & Maras box. Therefore, here are some high resolution front & back side closer views of undercoated only minis Fistr the girl I assume to be the leader and the rocket launcher servant
and the whole squad of Crusaders & Maras
As you can see there are 2 "official" maras poses where the "bolter" is hold with 2 hands that are NOT available by default. To reproduce them, you HAVE TO cut the arms to make the conversions..
Here is how Crusaders look like after only skin & weapon painting over the white undercoat Note that Prodos minis have such quality that at this point lazy players could just do an ink wash on the crusaders and start to play despite the squad looks much more like "Western Australian Angels" team from the Lingerie Football League rather than an actual female SWAT team (like the chinese ones)
Since the online shop only displays front picture of MABS, here is the other side as somebody requested it by mail to me
However, due to the skull helmet and pauldron the upper view and right side view are more impressive
(click to zoom)
I quite like also how the cabling of the weapon looks like some blood vessel and the Giger like biomechanical aspect of the armor/exoskeleton
I still have some hesitation about the left gauntlet, should I make it look like white bone, black claw or metal pincers ?
same for the eyes:
- deadly white
- normal as if she was still conscious and torture by the mechanicsm
- red has if she was possessed
Just now they are closed like if the girl was comatose and her body used like a puppet by the (darksymetrie) mechanicsm
Waiting for more information about Space Crusade background to decide.
As you can see there are 2 "official" maras poses where the "bolter" is hold with 2 hands that are NOT available by default.
To reproduce them, you HAVE TO cut the arms to make the conversions..
I managed those poses without having to carve anything away, at least with the box of Maras that I won on a Facebook give-away. The Crusaders may be different. I don't own any, so I wouldn't know.
I get the feeling that someone said originally "Make them look like Sisters of Battle.....no, too much clothing....make them more like if they were Sisters of Slaanesh, but with SOME small amount of clothing on."
Meanwhile, Prodos didn't release any information since it was "getting closer and closer to release" on the 4th July. Did the Crusader die during Independance II Day fight against aliens?
For this reason, I'm currently creating my own equipment and event cards for playing it with GW / MB rules
2nd step will be to make for people who don't own these dice
Here are 3 equipments
2 events
and one order card
The picture used are "No known copyright restrictions" (Public Domain) or "Commercial use & mods allowed" (needs to indicate the owner) from https://www.flickr.com/photos/ and http://www.thinkstockphotos.fr/ that have been cropped to make them PGP13 and resized for the cards.
Owners of the original pictures are "wifelee", "140933033@N05", "bootstrutbarbara" and "dreamleague" as the original are "Restricted" I can (and must because of https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ rules) give you the author ID but can't give direct links because of dakkadakka forum rules (anyway without a 18+ flickr account the links won't work)
The cards border are GW/MB properties (are at least were since "Space Crusade" trademark is now Prodos property.
Therefore you should use them ONLY if you have an MB/GW Space Crusade box.
If you find other picture/description idea fitting with "Prodos style" please publish them.
Just imagine a dozen of you make their own 5 or 6 card we will get a 60 a common card deck that could be independant from GW/MB one.
By the way has anybody ideas for the cards borders and back-side?
I would propose something like this for equipment set (mixing bootstrutbarbara glove (cropped, rotated and mirror) for item & wifelee body (just resized and cropped) for the background.
It you start like that...perhaps:
they think that as long as they release it at least 1 month before Gamezone Heroquest 25 it's still enought to get the market
or
they made a partnership want to release it as a package with Gamezone's Heroquest 25
As Prodos doesn't offer anything, here is a board you can print (on 2x2 A3 format pages) to use your miniatures
and the mission mini map
If you have MB Space Crusade, just consider that
- 5 minis & 10 hit points have to be splitted between the crusader/space marines players
- only one mini by player may get more than 1 hit point
- 1 mini can still have a Sgt weapon or an heavy weapon
(for example if you have one crusader/space marines player, his Sgt will have 6HP and the other 1 only like basic SC, if there are 2, P1 can have a 3 HP Sgt + 2 Marines, P2 can have a 4 HP "corporal" + 1 Marine)
- after wiping a room from aliens, the 1st player who pass 1 turn gets an equipment card by spending an action opening the box but pick-up one extra event card that will apply on him/her only!
If you want some background to give to your wargaming session using SC, just go to Prodos forum.
I try to build something like the "power armor bikini" version of John Carpenter's Ghosts of Mars...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V_dFw4mxeI with some bit of Hellraiser youtu.be/AmWuwqR5qjA?t=111 and Mutant Chronicles www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE-CQ_N_wE8 explaining the origin of Mabs
Kriegspiel as this is becoming a thread more about your hobby than news about "Space Crusade" It might be better if you started a thread in dakka discussions or misc sci fi games.
JoeRugby wrote: Kriegspiel as this is becoming a thread more about your hobby than news about "Space Crusade" It might be better if you started a thread in dakka discussions or misc sci fi games.
Well actually since I am nearly the only one posting something about SC on Prodos own forum, since 4th July, you won't get explanation about SC except what I post...
I'm wondering if it could be some kind of marketing strategy: leaving the fanboys giving their own speculation about the production, seeing what is the most approved or shared rumors then building the production so that it reflects exactly the market expectation...
Anyway, I cleaned my precedent post since Prodos forum is most suitable.
This remember me how "Dark Age" rules & universe was built in 2002 out of Gerald Brom's painting sometimes made more than 10 years before..
Usually you decide universe/rule core then you make concept art then miniature + final illustration then you extend universe & rules...
Here just as with dark age, heroes final look is defined but neither universe nor rule core exists.
Same for "Malefic Time: Plenilunio" RPG & "MT: Apocalypse" novel released in 2015, recycling several Royo's painting from 1998 artbook Malefic to build an universe from.
My theory is if:
- enought mini are bought (what is needed to finance AvP backers LOL)
- people play with them using existing or home made rules and build some background
then final game will release
if not, Prodos will just focus on AvP & Warzone (and may just link the SC to Warzone in a kind of Blood Beret remake)
Kriegspiel wrote: I'm wondering if it could be some kind of marketing strategy
Most of Archon's resources shifted to finish and complete LOAD manufacturing so they can ship it before or by when it was promised. Since the main SC game box are supposed to be UniCast and those resources are tied up, they have to delay SC main box.
The news on the AVP thread is also pretty eye opening. They've apparently been shipping AVP pledges two years late to the incorrect continents as well as addressed to internet handles and kickstarter usernames instead of backer's actual names and then washing their hands of it (similar to how they did when their pledge manager "glitched" and kept reopening closed pledges over and over and over). Whatever they're concentrating on it apparently isn't AVP.
I simply use MB/GW Space Crusade board dice mission & rules with
- Crusaders instead of Blood Angels
- Maras instead Chaos Space Marine
- Mabs intead of Necron/Androïd
fr a sexy/girly ambiance, I changed the BA equipment & orders card + few event cards by these (*)
and it was GREAT!
When fighting Genestealer the Crusaders I had the feeling of watching the "Dirty Pair" at the ending of "Project Eden" when they fight the aliens with their "bikini combat suit"
So just forget to think or dream of Prodos Space Crusade as a game.
Just consider them as a miniature range to play a sexy version of GW games and play NOW.
So does anybody volunteer to create a "CODEX CRUSADER"?
Could be a good option for great unclean one. Even more: I believe Nurle took the Eldar godess of fertility as hostage, this can be a nice avatar. The rest is crap
Hope that wasn't the same guy who "wrote" the LOAD rulebook before CMON took notice...!
Do you think also "LOAD is a shallow, untested and unimaginative dice chucker" ?
Well according to the francophone hobby & wargaming magazine "Ravage", LOAD rules are fantasy adapted rules of Pirate MOBA "Rum & Bones"
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/168788/rum-bones and so as good as it (both have more than 7/10 rating on BGG)
Actually I'm always doubful about "professional" article writers since they have (natural) tendencies to:
- note a better way the game they had received a free copy (and sometimes uncomplete) before release date
- flame down good games they just have the opportunity to see being played during a convention and had to buy at full price
I prefer comment of people who had to wait (long) and buy (expensive), they are more trustful to tell you if a game is worthwhile.
What I hope is Prodoss will either use easy rules (like MB/GW Space Crusade or old Blood Beret boardgame) or good & fast pace tactical (Space Hulk) or simulation (Legions of Steel) instead of doing awful useless complexity like Heroquest 25th with its awful move rules
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv_du1PGvtQ&index=5&list=PLts83Ocgb9CuVAtsrrggE7iHB2w_f1lOA that just look to be a way to prove the judge that they don't just copy the old one by adding useless stuff that beginner will not use and therefore play with old rules.
Hope that wasn't the same guy who "wrote" the LOAD rulebook before CMON took notice...!
Do you think also "LOAD is a shallow, untested and unimaginative dice chucker" ?
Well according to the francophone hobby & wargaming magazine "Ravage", LOAD rules are fantasy adapted rules of Pirate MOBA "Rum & Bones"
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/168788/rum-bones and so as good as it (both have more than 7/10 rating on BGG)
I would assume the guy aboves joke 'is' that they are directly copied from Rum & Bones amongst other things.
(Also numerous updates on the LOAD KS are begging their backers to go and rate them on BGG to up their rating from the low mark it used to be).
Terrible company to deal with. I made an order, waited over 5 months as they failed to reply to any attempt to contact them, then cancelled the order (I ordered through a third-party who were still waiting on the stock that was prommised for July).
I pity anyone who ordered directly...
Great product, absolutely terrible customer services (at least in my opinion).
Snebze wrote: Terrible company to deal with. I made an order, waited over 5 months as they failed to reply to any attempt to contact them, then cancelled the order (I ordered through a third-party who were still waiting on the stock that was prommised for July).
I pity anyone who ordered directly...
Great product, absolutely terrible customer services (at least in my opinion).
I think this is the crux.. I backed a seemingly unrelated KS.. and we got minis as a promotion.. which it turns out were made by Prodos. I backed another for 15mm models.. and those were made by Prodos. I feel like there was yet another but I can't remember what it was but I know they've done work for many many others.. AND.. all of those were delivered on time and with excellent quality (like.. some of the best resin I've ever seen). I think they really are in a spot where they need to get their act together or dissolve and reform with a competent management team at the helm.. or something.. because frankly.. they "can" produce some of the most amazing models out there.. but something is holding them back. They can deliver as well, as evidenced by the projects that weren't theirs that delivered on time. So, they have a weird bottleneck somewhere. With as much hatred as people have for them, they need to get those types of problems nailed down as fast as possible.
Who remembers Studio McVey? They were set to really blow up.. then infamy from a botched kickstarter hit and now it seems like the only way they can get people to touch their stuff is to piggyback off of CMON.. Prodos are IMO in a worse position than that even. They have to stealth piggyback...
Snebze wrote: Terrible company to deal with. I made an order, waited over 5 months as they failed to reply to any attempt to contact them, then cancelled the order (I ordered through a third-party who were still waiting on the stock that was prommised for July).
I pity anyone who ordered directly...
Great product, absolutely terrible customer services (at least in my opinion).
I think this is the crux.. I backed a seemingly unrelated KS.. and we got minis as a promotion.. which it turns out were made by Prodos. I backed another for 15mm models.. and those were made by Prodos. I feel like there was yet another but I can't remember what it was but I know they've done work for many many others.. AND.. all of those were delivered on time and with excellent quality (like.. some of the best resin I've ever seen). I think they really are in a spot where they need to get their act together or dissolve and reform with a competent management team at the helm.. or something.. because frankly.. they "can" produce some of the most amazing models out there.. but something is holding them back. They can deliver as well, as evidenced by the projects that weren't theirs that delivered on time. So, they have a weird bottleneck somewhere. With as much hatred as people have for them, they need to get those types of problems nailed down as fast as possible.
Who remembers Studio McVey? They were set to really blow up.. then infamy from a botched kickstarter hit and now it seems like the only way they can get people to touch their stuff is to piggyback off of CMON.. Prodos are IMO in a worse position than that even. They have to stealth piggyback...
What's the problem with Studio McVey kickstarter (I don't know, are there any other underwater rocks)?. Their sculpts seem nice and "Rising sun"- their new game I've seen mentioned in a few places.. So are their sculpts the best thing about them?
Studio McVey are sculptors and not rules writers as far as I know, and I think they were just trying to make a quick game to capitalize on their mini designs. It blew up so much and they added so much content which they didn't have planned that simple would not work so well and shoehorning more in I believe broke what was barely usable to begin with. Add in delays and changes in material which caused size issues and it became a big cluster . I've bought 10 or so copies just for the models( I think they were fine for the clearance price I got them for), bases and dice (use them all for zombicide, they have a nice weight). I wish he would revisit the project in a few years as I like many of the sculpts and they could easily become a decent launch point for something new, but I think they want this dog to disappear from all memory.
I am eagerly awaiting Raising Sun though, and blood rage figs were excellent
Yep I've done 2 miniature kickstarters sedition wars and avp both were b#@&s ups . Never again . Have both the McVey and prodos stuff in a draw can't even look at it
I've just found the movie that inspired Space Crusade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MP3lSwdQG8 since, according to
http://www.somethingawful.com/movie-reviews/total-retribution/1/ "This movie has to hold the all-time nudity record for something that's not actually a porno. Twenty solid minutes of the female lead wandering the ship completely naked, for no reason."
Actually, she/it is just a droïd fleshing reset, just like Barbie doll stored naked until the most convenient clothing is decided. Some fan service/scenario parallel development used for Quiet Character in Metal Gear Solid.
By the way note how Metal Gears look like GW/MB Dreadnoughts
"Its photosynthesis, she breaths through her skin, clothings would suffocate her" even Anita Sarkeesian (who share except for silence some physical similarity with Quiet) would understand this, wouldn't she?
Still feel like Sedition Wars was largely a factor of people (both SMV and customers) not being used to PVC. And then for whatever bizarre reason (honestly can't remember what it was or if it sounded reasonable at the time), they rushed the 1.1/1.5/whatever rules reprint while there was still a lot of open testing etc. Either way, the rules eventually were pretty solid (and began stronger than a lot of other KS projects), but people were already pissed off.
Except for the PVC acronym (*), I see what you mean
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1001404/review-kickstarter-not-necessarily-game Prodoss should give us at least basic core, and one of the board as well as few unit card to print to get our opinion about the rules by doing a firefight between Crusaders & Maras.
Even Gamezone did this for Heroquest 25th.
(*) do you refer to the polyvinyl chloride used for the miniature to designate any boardgame using minis rather than wood token (german games), card board unit on hexes (Advanced Squad Leader, or abstract shapes (1st versions of Risk, Cluedo,...)
Hey guys there is still somebody alive in Prodos Space Crusade team, look, they just updated their cover photo today 7 February 2017 14:23 of their Facebook https://www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd for a new Space Crusade illustration
it will be also the new box cover picture ( http://prodosgames.com/blog/space-crusade-major-update )
Their previous FB was from 20 September 2016!
They got 2 likes in less than 10 min so I'm not the only one peeping, I mean lurking at them
Glory to the Space Crusaders!
spiralingcadaver wrote: Still feel like Sedition Wars was largely a factor of people (both SMV and customers) not being used to PVC. And then for whatever bizarre reason (honestly can't remember what it was or if it sounded reasonable at the time), they rushed the 1.1/1.5/whatever rules reprint while there was still a lot of open testing etc. Either way, the rules eventually were pretty solid (and began stronger than a lot of other KS projects), but people were already pissed off.
All I know Sedition Wars is that my flat mate keeps leaving the packaging out, cluttering up my flat!
WoW like World of Warcraft?
Look at their blog http://prodosgames.com/blog/space-crusade-major-update for
"Items graphics
In "Space Crusade" you will be able to pick up various items and artifacts and obvously - each one will be hand drawn picture. Preview of few is below."
Don't you thnik its a WoW graphic style?
Yes, as mentioned in my previous posts, we had a tons of emails asking to make this game accessible for kids as well, So version PG13+ is the one that will have more armour plates (Heroes) and eventually same will go for every add-on model.
One more questions:
What Dakkadakkars think about his miniature , a future add-on for the SC game (or may be included in the main box as a free gift)
They've basically stopped talking about Space Crusade entirely at this point. :( They wont respond to inquiries on their community forum or through email. Prodos being Prodos I guess.
Whoa. This is the first time I've seen this game. The armor suits without chest and mid-section armor are hilarious. Are there boob-force fields emanating from their chests?
At Adepticon I was surprised to see the Prodos booth manned by only one guy on the Friday. How did they ever acquire the Aliens/Predator and WarZone licenses?
As to the name Space Crusade, it seems like it might be trademarked but could be untrademarkeable due to the descriptiveness scale. It would be safe to avoid the name altogether regardless considering how protective GW is with its IP.
Speaking of Prodos...I'm still secretly in belief that Kevin Siembeda from Robotech RPG Tactics is going to hook up with Prodos for the never-going-to-appear 2nd wave of Robotech products...and there will be a kind of black hole created in the world and that will be it. A singularity which will wipe mankind from existence.
As to the name Space Crusade, it seems like it might be trademarked but could be untrademarkeable due to the descriptiveness scale. It would be safe to avoid the name altogether regardless considering how protective GW is with its IP.
Unlike copyrights, trademarks do expire if unused. GW has not made a product called Heroes Quest, Space Crusade or Oy Dats Me Leg in over 25 years.
Now in the end GW can still try and defend their trademarks in which case one must ask if it's worth the trouble and expense. And honestly I don't know enough about trademark law to predict who would have the stronger claim.
As to the name Space Crusade, it seems like it might be trademarked but could be untrademarkeable due to the descriptiveness scale. It would be safe to avoid the name altogether regardless considering how protective GW is with its IP.
Unlike copyrights, trademarks do expire if unused. GW has not made a product called Heroes Quest, Space Crusade or Oy Dats Me Leg in over 25 years.
Now in the end GW can still try and defend their trademarks in which case one must ask if it's worth the trouble and expense. And honestly I don't know enough about trademark law to predict who wodaily uld have the stronger claim.
Trademarks last for 10 year periods before renewal. A quick search on the UKIPO shows that Hasbro owned the mark until it was allowed to lapse in 1996. Protos registered it in 2015 (as well as Space Crusaders).
Also the rules for descriptiveness would not apply here, as the mark isn't strictly describing the product (which are models).
Ninja Division Publishing is pleased to announce that Prodos Games will now be handling all trade and direct sales of their products Aliens v Predator: The Hunt Begins 2nd Edition and LOAD throughout North America. These, and other Prodos games can now be found at www.prodosgames.com/games.
Ninja Division Publishing will continue to take orders for Prodos Games products through June 1st, 2017. To set up an account for current and future releases of Prodos Games products, please contact sales@prodos.com. For questions about this change or other Ninja Division related business or products, please contact sales@ninjadivision.com"
Err, what?
Edit: Ah, NM. I wasn't aware ND was associated with the AVP product at all. Looks like they're just washing their hands of Prodos entirely.
Ninja Division Publishing is pleased to announce that Prodos Games will now be handling all trade and direct sales of their products Aliens v Predator: The Hunt Begins 2nd Edition and LOAD throughout North America. These, and other Prodos games can now be found at www.prodosgames.com/games.
So I saw that Prodos were at the UK Games Expo at the weekend. I walked past their stand a few times on Saturday, their rather large and relatively extravagant stand.
I've got to say, I was rather confused, I didn't see, or smell, a single rotten egg that had been thrown at them. Not a single sign of one.
Are Prodos actually starting to act like a legitimate company, now?
I like to think that the customers who have been wronged are of the better sort. Plus knowing Prodos they'll employ others to man their booth while they stay well the feth away their selves, which was certainly the case at Salute last year.
Is the anger towards Prodos coming from an old, failed, Kickstarter... or something? Because I have purchased quite a few boxes of their Space Crusade-line for my 40K Slaanesh armies and they have always delivered the goods without any problems. They even sent me a free extra missile launcher arm when I emailed them and asked them nicely So I am wondering why Prodos is getting so much flak here on Dakka?
Agusto wrote: Extremely long delays, a la Raging Heroes, or a complete failure to deliver what was promised?
To summarise (not a backer but kept up with the posts), Produs released the product to the general public a couple of years ago but some backers have still not received anything even now. To make matters worse they have now released a second edition at retail so even if / when the backers to receive what they pledged for it will be outdated.
They have also changed some of the products such as backers pledged for a hardcover rule book, it was changed to a soft cover book of half the size and sold for half the backer price at retail. Backers will not refunded the difference.
Agusto wrote: Is the anger towards Prodos coming from an old, failed, Kickstarter... or something? Because I have purchased quite a few boxes of their Space Crusade-line for my 40K Slaanesh armies and they have always delivered the goods without any problems. They even sent me a free extra missile launcher arm when I emailed them and asked them nicely So I am wondering why Prodos is getting so much flak here on Dakka?
Did you pre-order the Space Crusade game? How is it?
Agusto wrote: Is the anger towards Prodos coming from an old, failed, Kickstarter... or something? Because I have purchased quite a few boxes of their Space Crusade-line for my 40K Slaanesh armies and they have always delivered the goods without any problems. They even sent me a free extra missile launcher arm when I emailed them and asked them nicely So I am wondering why Prodos is getting so much flak here on Dakka?
Did you pre-order the Space Crusade game? How is it?
If you did pre-order it, they will refund you, which is nice I guess, unless you actually wanted the game.
I... did not know that. Shame, I really like their minatures and it is nice to have a company that sells 40K proxies that doesn't need hours upon hours in order to wash the mold release-agents away But I still say that they are good and quick when it comes to delivering models though.
Agusto wrote: I... did not know that. Shame, I really like their minatures and it is nice to have a company that sells 40K proxies that doesn't need hours upon hours in order to wash the mold release-agents away But I still say that they are good and quick when it comes to delivering models though.
That's really not a true statement though, unfortunately.
It is hard to believe that there are still some backers from their AvP KS - a KS that helped get them to where they are today - that haven't received their pledges (or all of their pledges) yet.
Until they complete that one, it is a stain that's going to follow them around.
Still waiting on my wargame rulebook (and the warzone rulebook they said they would give to backers), FemPred, Youngbloods, multi-part Marines, Marine bits, all objective markers and Facehuggers.
Several of those have been available at retail for a while now, but Prodos seems disinterested in fulfilling their obligations or even replying to my requests for product exchange, which they offered to backers.
I am one of the original AvP backers who paid >$200 but have yet to receive most of my stuff. I even went to their booth at Spiel Essen - but just got a few minis (they only had the game in German).
Last year I wrote Prodos and requested them to send the missing stuff (including the actual game) so that I could demo it at Swedens biggest game festival, Nordsken with >10.000 visitors (I am one of the five organizers).
Surprisingly they did send me some promo materials (mostly posters) - but not the game itself, making it impossible for us to have a demo table...
I've only ordered 2 boxes of their space crusade miniatures. The order was sent with only one of the two boxes and took over a month to come in. After an angry email and 3 weeks waiting on the reply, they agreed to send out a new box. In my email I refused to pay shipping since they original invoice showed the price and shipping cost of two boxes. Another month later and I got the second box.
Overall quality? Eh..detail is good, but even my car primer (which will stick to Chinese resin without washing it) flakes off after hours of trying to get the release agent off.
So the models look nice, Prodos is a terribly unreliable company, and painting the models doesn't seem intended based on personal experience.
Agusto wrote: Is the anger towards Prodos coming from an old, failed, Kickstarter... or something? Because I have purchased quite a few boxes of their Space Crusade-line for my 40K Slaanesh armies and they have always delivered the goods without any problems. They even sent me a free extra missile launcher arm when I emailed them and asked them nicely So I am wondering why Prodos is getting so much flak here on Dakka?
Did you pre-order the Space Crusade game? How is it?
If you did pre-order it, they will refund you, which is nice I guess, unless you actually wanted the game.
My understanding is that this is correct, and that there will still be a way to get the game later on in the year.
My purchase of the board game was just refunded with a message that seems to indicate they're refunding everyone as "part of the Space Crusade Refund Program."
Edit: And the game is no longer available for purchase.
skarsol wrote: My purchase of the board game was just refunded with a message that seems to indicate they're refunding everyone as "part of the Space Crusade Refund Program."
Edit: And the game is no longer available for purchase.
Right. It's going to undergo another round of development, but we won't know what is changing or how much is changing until Q4.
Overall quality? Eh..detail is good, but even my car primer (which will stick to Chinese resin without washing it) flakes off after hours of trying to get the release agent off.
So the models look nice, Prodos is a terribly unreliable company, and painting the models doesn't seem intended based on personal experience.
Best ordered from un-related stores with the items already in stock. I haven't had any issues with priming (I did so by hand too).
I ordered the board game through Wayland, but canceled it back in January after they refused to reply to any of the questions I sent them. (Edit: Prodos refused to answer. Wayland were excellent)
Agusto wrote: I... did not know that. Shame, I really like their minatures and it is nice to have a company that sells 40K proxies that doesn't need hours upon hours in order to wash the mold release-agents away But I still say that they are good and quick when it comes to delivering models though.
This is a hot mess of a company. This Space Crusade fiasco is just another in a long stream of hot messes that are smelling and steamy.
Lack of business sense, lack of ownership, lack of accountability.... stay well away from them, and get your stuff second hand, or from another source who you can vouch for that has the stuff you want on hand. Prodos is garbage. Stay away from them, or they will do what they have done to everyone else and rob Peter to pay Paul.
So in a situation like this, does Prodos have the actual money on hand (i.e. are they just netting interest on funds that they borrowed from a potential consumer - then sending the money back - having netted that interest free of charge?)
CptJake wrote: Let me know when I can expect a refund for the AvP stuff they owe me.
Roughly never.
Pretty much. There was a group of people trying to bring legal procedings against them (they have a facebook page - Prodos Games: Legal Action) in the UK, the country they claimed to be operating out of. iirc They sent people (now that I look into it, it was a bailiff...) to the business address, only to find that Prodos had moved out and taken their business abroad. They supposedly have an office in New York now instead...
Agusto wrote: Is the anger towards Prodos coming from an old, failed, Kickstarter... or something? Because I have purchased quite a few boxes of their Space Crusade-line for my 40K Slaanesh armies and they have always delivered the goods without any problems. They even sent me a free extra missile launcher arm when I emailed them and asked them nicely So I am wondering why Prodos is getting so much flak here on Dakka?
Did you pre-order the Space Crusade game? How is it?
If you did pre-order it, they will refund you, which is nice I guess, unless you actually wanted the game.
Yeah, took a month & a paypal dispute, but they'll refund (eventually).
Agusto wrote: Is the anger towards Prodos coming from an old, failed, Kickstarter... or something? Because I have purchased quite a few boxes of their Space Crusade-line for my 40K Slaanesh armies and they have always delivered the goods without any problems. They even sent me a free extra missile launcher arm when I emailed them and asked them nicely So I am wondering why Prodos is getting so much flak here on Dakka?
Did you pre-order the Space Crusade game? How is it?
If you did pre-order it, they will refund you, which is nice I guess, unless you actually wanted the game.
Yeah, took a month & a paypal dispute, but they'll refund (eventually).
They actually forcibly refunded everyone last week.
(cause I have an opinion)
.....but yes you are correct...truly not an argument/discussion for this thread. I feel strongly about it so ....had to make my comment.
. As a parent I try to teach my kids what I believe is right and wrong, and that means that you need to keep your kids away from certain things until they are old enough to comprehend the difference between the two and how one affects the other. My kids have all had "the Talk" because there is just too much of this junk in the world and you cannot avoid it, it doesn't mean that it's okay to go outside around a schoolyard and curse to your hearts content just because others do. If that were the case I'd just go on a killing spree because that is acceptable. I may not be able to provide a Leave it to Beaver style upbringing for my kids, but as long as I have breath then I will do what i can to protect them and give them the benefit of my knowledge in helping them to decide how to best live their life once I'm gone. Too many choices are out there right now that have lasting reporecussions on kids lives to let kids make uninformed decisions. While these models aren't the end of the world, they are one of the problems wrong with it. It is nudity for nudity's sake and serves no purpose except to elicit a harsh response.
people and I was just about to start buying warzone models to paint as I like the asian themed army and I even commented in the thread when they showed off the Gigamech. After seeing this stuff, and the representative from Prodos, I will spend my money elsewhere. While not a fanatic of Aliens vs. Predator, It is a game that I wanted to purchase at a later date, when my kids are ready for watching those movies with me, and then be able to play against them. That too has now been ruined by the company's desire to try for a cash grab by selling gak.
in case you use the Crusaders in Alien vs Predator
