@Chaos Legionnaire
This was discussed before and I will quote what was said then now:
topaxygouroun i wrote: The formation is written on your list. Your army is on the battlefield. Your list doesn't change if a unit dies. You keep the rerolls to the last man.
Completely software design-wise, in a different case the wording would be "While the war cabal contains the maximum amount of units..." which would suggest a continuous situation that would end when the clause of the "while" would cease to function. A wording of "If...then..." is usually taken into account instantaneously.
This pretty much covers it, basically if GW wanted you to lose the bonus they would have worded it differently. In fact in their previous book in the Fenris campaign the Tetrad formation specifically stated that if units are lost so are bonuses, these new formations do not specify as such.
The oddity comes in when you look at the wording of the Thousand Sons formations and the ones of the Kakophoni and Plague Colony.
Thousand Sons Rehati War Sect:
"Favoured of Tzeentch: If a Rehati War Sect contains the maximum number of units, then units from the Formation can re-roll any failed saving throws of 1."
Turn the page and we see this:
Plague Colony:
"Enervating Pestilential Aura: ... If this Formation includes the maximum number of units at the start of the battle, then enemy units within 7'..."
Why are they worded differently, with the thousand sons ones all ommiting the bit about the start of the battle? I certainly read it that if you shell out for the full number of units that you get your re-rolls until the end of the game, but by RAW, technically you should lose them once you lose a unit. I severely doubt that's what GW intended, but it also didn't intend for the RAW wording of the tau's combined fire rule to hand out buffmander's bonus to the entire tau army either, but that's exactly what it did by RAW, hence why they changed the wording of the rule. GW also seems to hate the Sons with a passion, so who knows, maybe that is what they intend?
My local will certainly be playing it RAI though, but that doesn't really help anyone else.
*sigh*
I haven't picked up the Traitor legions book yet because I want to finish my TS before I am tempted by another legion so I didn't realise the wording of other formations in the Traitor legion book specify filled formations at the start of the battle.
This is the second time this month I have discussed a rules issue where it does not specify either way what it means whilst other similar rules (in the same publication!) do.
I wonder whether GW do these inconsistencies on purpose for sadistic pleasure.
Once again: *sigh*
I would still play it as you keep the bonus even after a unit is killed otherwise the rule becomes very expensive for how unreliable it would be.
- Blessing of Tzeentch interactions (what qualifies, can it be cancelled by Culexus)
- Favored of Tzeentch interactions (can the bonus be removed by unit losses)
- Siphon Magic triggers (if affects self, tokens carried over into subsequent phases + turns)
- Does Baleful Devolution affect a single model (or do attacks "spill over" to the squad)
- Force Weapon substitutions for the Force Stave (missing options)
- Mark of Tzeentch restrictions (max save, interactions with modifiers)
- Deep Striking Warlord trait (what is needed to confer zero scatter)
- +1 psychic power WL trait (does it confer a ML to non-psykers)
- Scarab Terminator lack of 'Slow and Purposeful' (possible oversight?)
- # of max powers manifested in groups of multiple IC psykers (possibly in BRB)
- Treason of Tzeentch used multiple times on the same unit (legality)
- Charge restrictions for created Spawn (Magnus, Devolution)
We also need to know if siphon tokens carry over into the next turn since they aren't called warp charge.
It would also be nice if they clarified how many psychic powers can be cast from a mixed unit of psykers. It was a mess after the FAQ with some people saying a group of 3 ML3 psykers can only cast 3 powers and others saying 9 and I am sure my mentioning of it will lead people to argue about it again (although I hope not).
I don't think there's any oversight with the Scarab Occult. They are in Tartaros - i.e. 'fast' - Terminator armour but presumably don't get actual Tartaros rules because they are Rubrics. Ergo, Relentless but now Slow and Purposeful.
I'm wondering if Soulreaper Cannons are worth it if you intend to take 10 man Rubric units anyway, and should you take both that and a missile launcher on the Scarabs...tough choices when points are so limited.
Well, I think that the mark is limit to improve "until" a max of +3. That is not the same that have a max of 3++ from any source.
Lets go to another example, invented of course. Imagine that the Mark of nurgle increase toughness +1 to a max of 5. Sure no one will tell you you cant go over toughness 5 if you increate it thanks Biomancy.
This is the same, you can't go better than a 3++ thanks the mark. but does not mean you can't got one better thanks other ways or sources.
Now more focused on the TS tactics, I think that the best way to help TS on their WC problem is use some demons. A pandemonium of Tzeentch with scribes and the herald formation. For less 500 pts you got the 3 blue horrors or 11 each, the blue scribes and 3 lv heralds. Those are 15 WC. And, important, the blue scribes with a 50% each turn of summon free (and since are not psi, they never will be dead by summon a great daemon).
True that blue scribes doesnt provide dices...but the chance of got free incursion or possesion (3 charges) think is cool.
Indeed scribes and blue horrors are weak and should be hidden and far from enemy forces, But they are the defense of the heralds.
Other option could be a deemon cad with 2 lv2 heralds and 2 units of 12 or 13 pinks horrors (one with icon....believe me, the icon helps sooo much to summon where you want xD). Maybe one heral with the relic that doubles the split on horrors and the other with paradox. Dont provide as much WC, but are obsec and if the enemy shoots them could be an horror mess. Also cost less so you can use those points on more TS army or to put a soulgrinder to cover the lack of large blasts.
In any case is very very sad that the TS, being an army focused on magic, have no way to get large amounts of warp dices by their own, needing being allied with daemons. With this new release and the fact of GW actually making new miniatures, think they lost the GREAT chance of add some cheap psi guy (like they did to the imperium with those Astropath 25pts psickers). The Thrall Wizards could be the perfect add to the TS army since they will solve the lack of cheap psickers as well a nice touch for the lore and will allow play pure TS army with no need of demons... Because if you want focus con magic, a pure TS usually have a WC problem. and if you dont focus on magic, why use TS? xDD
Franarok wrote: Well, I think that the mark is limit to improve "until" a max of +3. That is not the same that have a max of 3++ from any source.
I agree as my reading of the pg 30 CSM rule (to a maximum of 3+) is not a limitation on the overall invul save, just how far the MoT, itself, can take the save, which is 3+. That's not a stretch since the section in question is strictly talking about the MoT. There are no rules stating how and when the MoT is to be applied so it is left up to the controlling player to decide how that happens. As long as I state that I am applying the MoT before I am applying the +1 invul from the Blessing of Tzeentch Special rule, I haven't violated any conditions and can receive the benefit of both. Therefore if I play a Sorcerer that starts with a 3++ Invul save (due to Sigil of Corruption and MoT) I need only to state that I am applying the MoT, first, when I have met the conditions to also receive the benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch. This isnt a stretch either since we are talking about a new book which is giving major buffs to an old and antiquated codex. It's a rules question, which isn't for here but the implications on the meta are significant as the ability to have a 2++ Sorcerer can still make them a worthwhile unit and doesn't make Exalted Sorcerers an auto take.
If you're applying the MoT but have a state-based effect that gives you a 3++, you still only have a 3++. It doesn't matter when you apply the mark. If the mark states that it cannot be used to improve beyond a 3++, then it doesn't matter.
if I remember correctly, Blessing states it gives you a +1 to your INV so;
Also a variant of the Magnus lsit someone posted before but to a 1500 pts could be
Daemons:
Lorestealer
- Blue Scribes
- 11 blue horrors with icon
- 11 blue horrors
- 10 blue horrors
Herals Anarchic
- lv2 herald
- lv2 herald
- lv1 herald
TSons:
War cabal
- Ahriman with disk
- Scarab Occult terminators
- 5 Rubric marines
- lv2 sorcerer with astral grimore and familiar
- lv2 exalted sorcerer with familiar and Seer’s Bane
- Predator with tlinked laser cannon
My wish is give the Seer’s Bane user a disk to make him more durable and the estra attack. Maybe could quit Ahriman one and give to him. OR replace Ahriman by an exalted sorcerer so with the 100 saved point can give the new one and the Seer’s Baneone both a disk and still have 40 point to more stuff....mmmmm
Also the idea is put the astral sorcerer with the grimore and the Seer’s Bane exalted on the terminator unit.
The laser predator is a bad try of have some antitank
The army gives 24 (1 or 2 less less if change Ahriman) WC plus the extra 1d6 and the extra spell on the tsons mages. With "a bit" of luck should be enough to summon with the heralds nasty stuff the initial turns to compensate the lack of punch (the screamers are nice, but think that the plaguedrones are even better).
No forget the blue scribes and their chance of free summon (summoning a great daemon free and, important, ignoring the sacrifice part is nasty haha). But you can have bad luck and always have the poor beam one. Also you need hide them xD.
By the way, someone tried the portal? It used to be terrible bad, but now maybe shoot and kill 3 pink horrors that comes out from it maybe is not the best of ideas if you cant kill all and you start an horror pandemic
Besides the rules issues, I have a question about the Viability of one of the formations. This may seem silly but I wanted to run Ahrimans Exiles at full strength. Ahriman and 9 sorcerers. I know this is expensive but I love the idea of this unit on the table. I was going to Support them with a Imperial Deamon Knight of Tzeentch.
Any advice on if this could work or how best to equip the unit would be much appreciated. I know this is not optimal, but I would like to try this out with the best chances. I am looking for a list at 1850 for my LGS.
Well, always can join all on a same unit giving all disks, lv3 and familiars.
The one with Seer’s Bane having biomancy, ahriman focusing on shoot powers and the other on sinistrum or/and heretech.
If you add a small cad with Belakor and 2 cultist to provide invisibility and Lorestealer formation to provide more dices you have a nice deathstar
You can melt from distance with at least 3 telepathy primaris from Ahriman, be able to resist attacks thanks belakor and some sinistrum buff and tear apart at melee with biomancy and Seer’s Bane.
Problem? you are an enigma on the table hahaha, really very few models
No idea of the points, but think that provide the herald a portal glyph could works, since surely no one will care a **** of it hahaa. Maybe the extra dices from incoming pink horrors could help.
Franarok wrote: Well, I think that the mark is limit to improve "until" a max of +3. That is not the same that have a max of 3++ from any source.
I agree as my reading of the pg 30 CSM rule (to a maximum of 3+) is not a limitation on the overall invul save, just how far the MoT, itself, can take the save, which is 3+. That's not a stretch since the section in question is strictly talking about the MoT. There are no rules stating how and when the MoT is to be applied so it is left up to the controlling player to decide how that happens. As long as I state that I am applying the MoT before I am applying the +1 invul from the Blessing of Tzeentch Special rule, I haven't violated any conditions and can receive the benefit of both. Therefore if I play a Sorcerer that starts with a 3++ Invul save (due to Sigil of Corruption and MoT) I need only to state that I am applying the MoT, first, when I have met the conditions to also receive the benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch. This isnt a stretch either since we are talking about a new book which is giving major buffs to an old and antiquated codex. It's a rules question, which isn't for here but the implications on the meta are significant as the ability to have a 2++ Sorcerer can still make them a worthwhile unit and doesn't make Exalted Sorcerers an auto take.
If it works the way you're suggesting then the limitation will never come into effect because the player could always choose to apply the MoT +1 before any other bonuses. I would agree that if you can boost your invul to a 2++ through other means like cursed earth and grimoire so that the mark isn't being used at all then that would be ok, but I wouldn't let a character apply the +1 from MoT to get to a 2++.
Franarok wrote: Well, always can join all on a same unit giving all disks, lv3 and familiars.
The one with Seer’s Bane having biomancy, ahriman focusing on shoot powers and the other on sinistrum or/and heretech.
If you add a small cad with Belakor and 2 cultist to provide invisibility and Lorestealer formation to provide more dices you have a nice deathstar
You can melt from distance with at least 3 telepathy primaris from Ahriman, be able to resist attacks thanks belakor and some sinistrum buff and tear apart at melee with biomancy and Seer’s Bane.
Problem? you are an enigma on the table hahaha, really very few models
No idea of the points, but think that provide the herald a portal glyph could works, since surely no one will care a **** of it hahaa. Maybe the extra dices from incoming pink horrors could help.
I am looking to cap the Formation at about 1300 pts and use the remaining 550 for Support. In the Formation I was going to use a mix of Disc Sorcerers, and the relic to allow them all to move like Jump troops.
One of the big advantages of disc is the ability to shoot everything in the psychic phase, then turbo boost out of reach in the shooting. You can't do that with the Grimoire because it only gives them Jump for the movement phase.
nintura wrote: One of the big advantages of disc is the ability to shoot everything in the psychic phase, then turbo boost out of reach in the shooting. You can't do that with the Grimoire because it only gives them Jump for the movement phase.
That is a great point, thank you. I will have to reconsider now. Everyone on Discs is a definite advantage for the range game.
What would you suggest for support?
I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?
nintura wrote: One of the big advantages of disc is the ability to shoot everything in the psychic phase, then turbo boost out of reach in the shooting. You can't do that with the Grimoire because it only gives them Jump for the movement phase.
That is a great point, thank you. I will have to reconsider now. Everyone on Discs is a definite advantage for the range game.
What would you suggest for support?
I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?
I can't help with support because I suck at knowing what's available. Just too many books. But Scarab Termies do not have what you claim unless it's in the Traitor's Legion. In WoM and in their box, they only have power swords with no options to replace them.
I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?
It doesn't say that at all. Are you using a roster editor?
I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?
They aren't 'terminators' they are 'scarab occult terminators', you might be reading the wrong thing.
I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?
It doesn't say that at all. Are you using a roster editor?
This is what I am reading
OPTIONS:
• May include up to six additional
Rubric Terminators................................................xx pts/model
• Any Rubric Terminator may replace take an item from the
Terminator Weapons List.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator
may replace their Inferno Combi-bolter with an item from
the Heavy Weapons list.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator may
also take
a hellfyremissile rack (pg 156
I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?
It doesn't say that at all. Are you using a roster editor?
This is what I am reading
OPTIONS:
• May include up to six additional
Rubric Terminators................................................xx pts/model
• Any Rubric Terminator may replace take an item from the
Terminator Weapons List.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator
may replace their Inferno Combi-bolter with an item from
the Heavy Weapons list.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator may
also take
a hellfyremissile rack (pg 156
Neither Wrath of Magnus not Traitor Legions says that and they are not Rubric Terminators. So what are you looking at?
As mentioned before, the Scarab Occults are not plain terminators and can only have power swords. That being said, they are better than normal terminators. Any other terminator unit in the game is a one-trick pony, only good in one phase of the game and still they are bad because of dying to small arms fire spam like all the terminators. Scarabs however are very useful in all the phases of the game and in a maxed war cabal (which-let's face it- is where we will be playing them) they become a serious powerhouse.
Yes I am becoming a scarab occult terminator groupie. And I'm proud of it.
I take my Seers Bane Ex.Sorc always with a Disc, so i can't get ID by Strength 8 weapons. I run him along with Spawns, so he still can move 12". If you can buff yourself (i.e. with Force), they'll get 5++. Rolling on Biomancy can give you Endurance for Feel no Pain on 4+ and Eternal Warrior.
You can build a Herald of Tzeentch from the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch Box, which is a great set: You can build a Herald (with Disc), an Exalted Flamer on a Chariot and 2 Blue Horrors. You could also take the 2 Blue Horrors and put them on the disc from the chariot, et voila, proxied Blue Scribes and 2 Screamers
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I don't know where the hate for Scarabs comes from. Yeah they can't hurt things with a 2+, but where are you really dealing with that 24/7?
The hate is coming from them being 250 points and still having all the drawbacks of normal terminators without being able to take anything useful like power axes, combi meltas or a chainfist. Anything with a 2+ will tarpit them forever since str4 is useless against anything good and with the loss of sanctic for hammerhand on the exalteds, it's reliant on a 2W sorc to not perils himself to death to buff them. Anything that also has a powerfist or similar is going to eat through them quicker than you'd like too given how much they cost. A single armoured sentinal can charge them and it will take the Staff equiped sarge 9 rounds of combat to break them out. The paltry str4 also means that they're completely impotant against anything with a strong invulnerable save. 3 wraiths will not just tie them up, but kill all of them in 6 rounds while only suffering 1 casualty. They're also in quite a bit of trouble against higher toughness things too since they're wounding on 6's, though the force staff on the sarge means that it's really only numerous 1W things relying on higher T (like nurgle bikers for example) that will give them a hard time, though bouncing your AP4 staff off monstrous creatures is also going to be a pain if they deny force or don't have the good grace to fail their saves in a timely fashion.
topaxygouroun i wrote:As mentioned before, the Scarab Occults are not plain terminators and can only have power swords. That being said, they are better than normal terminators. Any other terminator unit in the game is a one-trick pony, only good in one phase of the game and still they are bad because of dying to small arms fire spam like all the terminators. Scarabs however are very useful in all the phases of the game and in a maxed war cabal (which-let's face it- is where we will be playing them) they become a serious powerhouse.
Yes I am becoming a scarab occult terminator groupie. And I'm proud of it.
Being a fanboi and being unable to objectively assess the strengths and weaknesses of a unit isn't going to help anyone. Yes, scarabs in the full cabal are strong, but despite the fact being pointed out to you repeatedly, the full cabal is prohibitively expensive for any games under 2k which is not what the majority of people play. I'm not sure how you think combi-weapon toting terminators are only good in one phase of the game since combi melta or plasma combined with power axes mean you're a threat to pretty much everything when you come down and again the next turn when you're free to charge. The addition of a 12 point chainfist means you're also a real threat to vehicles and can't be stalled out by walkers. If you want to call them bad because they die to small arms, then the same accusation must be levels at the scarabs outside a full cabal since they lack the ranged punch while costing well over double the points of a meltacide team. In fact, you're getting close to 3 units of termicide teams for the same cost as 5 Scarabs with a cannon and missiles.
Noctem wrote:Couple questions!
Is Seer's Bane best on a disc Exalted Sorcerer or a foot one inside a squad? What about Astral Grimoire?
When it comes to Heralds of Tzeentch and the Blue Scribes, are the only models of them the Finecast ones on GW website?
I think Blue/Brimstone boxes will be coming next month, but trying to figure out a way to get 3 Heralds and 1 Blue Scribes!
I'd suggest that the Bane is best on a disc sorc, though it's also worth mentioning that just because he's on a disc, doesn't mean he can't also join a unit for protection if there's no good spots for him to hide. As for the grimoure, it misght as well go in a squad since if it's on a disc, the temptation will be to hide him and that could well take him out of range to use the grimoure on the squad that needs it next turn.
As mentioned, the Burning Chariot kit makes a herald (on disc or on foot) and for some bizare reason, is cheaper than the finecast herald on disc in most areas.
The blue scribes however are only available as the finecast kit without some decent conversion skills or proxies.
Drasius, perhaps you're making a point but you're also comparing a unit outside its role.
Termicide serves a different function -- fire Combis, then die. Scarabs will be used as a retinue with defensive buffs in every situation outside maxed War Cabal, where their increased durability basically makes them a different unit.
I think their limited range of targets is a valid point, but in that case you need to compare a similar AP3 blender like Possessed or Warp Talons. Remember, there's only 160pts of Terminators in there once you account for the Sorcerer.
I'm not saying your criticisms are wrong, just that Scarabs are very unlikely to be played as analogues to standard Terminators.
Being a fanboi and being unable to objectively assess the strengths and weaknesses of a unit isn't going to help anyone. Yes, scarabs in the full cabal are strong, but despite the fact being pointed out to you repeatedly, the full cabal is prohibitively expensive for any games under 2k which is not what the majority of people play. I'm not sure how you think combi-weapon toting terminators are only good in one phase of the game since combi melta or plasma combined with power axes mean you're a threat to pretty much everything when you come down and again the next turn when you're free to charge. The addition of a 12 point chainfist means you're also a real threat to vehicles and can't be stalled out by walkers. If you want to call them bad because they die to small arms, then the same accusation must be levels at the scarabs outside a full cabal since they lack the ranged punch while costing well over double the points of a meltacide team. In fact, you're getting close to 3 units of termicide teams for the same cost as 5 Scarabs with a cannon and missiles.
Selectively choosing my words and taking them out of context is not helping either. I was clear to mention that outside a maxed war cabal the scarabs are a surplus unit, just like any other terminators. I guess you accidentally skipped that one. To begin with, you can play a maxed war cabal at 1500 pts. Do the math. Sure, it won't be the most efficient list ever, but you can actually play it, so please stop it with the small/big games. And unless you personally know the majority of people, please refrain from speaking on their behalf. What's more, what size of games people play is irrelevant when we discuss the profile of a unit. And if you are so adamant about your 1200 pt games, what are you even doing in a thread about -perhaps- the most expensive and elite army there is?
As for the terminator comparison. Simple terminators with MoT and combi plasmas/meltas actually cost more than a scarab occult. Also, combi meltas are very heavily reliant on not scattering when deep striking. Combi plasmas are good, but you can find them cheaper elsewhere, and at any rate I believe that being able to drop + psychic scream is better than dropping + combi plasmas. As for the normal terminators melee prowess, I believe that power axes in 1-wound guys is a bad purchase. Power mauls are much better, and in that case I do have my force staff which is the same thing and I prefer having Force than not having it. 12 pt chain fists are good. 5 pt melta bombs are the same kind of good and with ap1 to boot. Also it is convenient how you forget that you also get a 120 pt sorcerer when you purchase your scarabs. And at any rate, I fail to see how having MORE options is worse than not having them. People who dislike terminators in general aren't going to play with scarabs anyways. People who do like them are quite likely to play with scarabs as well, and in that case they might probably want to hear opinions of people who have played with them. Finally, you definitely do not get 3 units of termicide for the price of 5 scarabs, even though you tried your best to make scarabs as expensive as you could and the termicide as cheap. This is a thread on a topic of Thousand Son lists. Do not bring unmarked termies into the conversation because they are not part of a Thousand son list.
Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.
Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.
A 5 man Termie unit in a TSCAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.
Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.
A 5 man Termie unit in a TSCAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.
Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer
SonsofVulkan wrote: Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.
Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.
A 5 man Termie unit in a TSCAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.
Fine, have it like this: There are zero lists where simple terminators are good. There is one list where scarabs are great.
Yoyoyo wrote:Drasius, perhaps you're making a point but you're also comparing a unit outside its role.
Termicide serves a different function -- fire Combis, then die. Scarabs will be used as a retinue with defensive buffs in every situation outside maxed War Cabal, where their increased durability basically makes them a different unit.
I think their limited range of targets is a valid point, but in that case you need to compare a similar AP3 blender like Possessed or Warp Talons. Remember, there's only 160pts of Terminators in there once you account for the Sorcerer.
I'm not saying your criticisms are wrong, just that Scarabs are very unlikely to be played as analogues to standard Terminators.
Yep, the very fact that you compare them to units like Possessed and Warp Talons who cost almost half what a unit of Scarabs do and are still complete and utter trash is the point. That there's 160 points of crappy terminators in there is irrelevant since I can't take them without the sorceror (not that I would want to), besides, the sorc isn't really ML2. Oh, sure, he generates 2 dice, but the Tz table isn't great even with the update, he doesn't have a familiar and being forced to roll on the Tz table means you not only lose a roll on something good like telepathy or bio, you lose out on getting the primaris for free and get firestorm that you'll never cast. That aspiring sorceror is dead weight and if he casts anything other than force, shriek or doombolt, it will be a statistical outlier.
You can build a terminator unit just as good or better than the Scarabs at their only purpose (MEQ shredder or 2+/3++ meatshield) while being just as survivable, in the same codex, in the same army, in the same slot, for less points. That's the very definition of a bad unit.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Selectively choosing my words and taking them out of context is not helping either. I was clear to mention that outside a maxed war cabal the scarabs are a surplus unit, just like any other terminators. I guess you accidentally skipped that one. To begin with, you can play a maxed war cabal at 1500 pts. Do the math. Sure, it won't be the most efficient list ever, but you can actually play it, so please stop it with the small/big games. And unless you personally know the majority of people, please refrain from speaking on their behalf. What's more, what size of games people play is irrelevant when we discuss the profile of a unit. And if you are so adamant about your 1200 pt games, what are you even doing in a thread about -perhaps- the most expensive and elite army there is?
I'm not selectively choosing your words nor taking them out of context, simply quoting what's relevant instead of filling the page with a quote train. Yes, you can put a full cabal on the table at 1500, but it's completely pointless and we both know it. All you need to do is look at the army list forum to see that the vast, vast majority of lists are built for 1850 or less, with a lesser but not insignificant amount for 2k and then a small handful of lists for over 2k. As for game size being irrelevant when discussing a unit, that's blatently ridiculous. Do you think that the various versions of superfriends or even the basic centstar works at lower point levels? Where do you draw the line on large points investment units in smaller games? At what point does running a double demi company become viable over a single demi and support elements? When the profile of a unit changes when a large amount of points are invested, for example in a full war cabal talking about Scarab Occult Terminators then it's very relevant to discuss game size when you can't reasonably expect to field them when they are actually good at anything under 1850, and even then, there's severe restrictions of the rest of the list.
I'm not saying 1200 point games are the point, I'm saying that it's asanine to blindly sing the praises of a unit that has limited practical application in normal games outside of a very specific set of restrictions without a qualifier. It's not a small/big game difference, it's a tournament standard/beer and pretzel difference. Talking about 2400 or 3k or whatever is just as pointless as talking about 500 or 750 for most players since it's not something they usually play, and most things that are discussed here are with the implicit understanding that it's in reference to tournament level points games eg 1500-1850.
topaxygouroun i wrote:As for the terminator comparison. Simple terminators with MoT and combi plasmas/meltas actually cost more than a scarab occult. Also, combi meltas are very heavily reliant on not scattering when deep striking. Combi plasmas are good, but you can find them cheaper elsewhere, and at any rate I believe that being able to drop + psychic scream is better than dropping + combi plasmas. As for the normal terminators melee prowess, I believe that power axes in 1-wound guys is a bad purchase. Power mauls are much better, and in that case I do have my force staff which is the same thing and I prefer having Force than not having it. 12 pt chain fists are good. 5 pt melta bombs are the same kind of good and with ap1 to boot. Also it is convenient how you forget that you also get a 120 pt sorcerer when you purchase your scarabs. And at any rate, I fail to see how having MORE options is worse than not having them. People who dislike terminators in general aren't going to play with scarabs anyways. People who do like them are quite likely to play with scarabs as well, and in that case they might probably want to hear opinions of people who have played with them. Finally, you definitely do not get 3 units of termicide for the price of 5 scarabs, even though you tried your best to make scarabs as expensive as you could and the termicide as cheap. This is a thread on a topic of Thousand Son lists. Do not bring unmarked termies into the conversation because they are not part of a Thousand son list.
5 termies with MoT and a combi are 209 points against the 250 for the Scarabs - How are you figuring that the Termies cost more? Even if you want 6 wounds, it's an even 250 for 6, so equal cost, though at that point you'd spend the extra 5 points an make 'em 2x 3 man units. As for the meltas, yes, they are, that's why termicide is seen as a disposable cheap unit and not often looked upon fondly, rather as a deperate measure due to lack of choice otherwise due to our crappy dex. As for combi-plas cheaper elsewhere, I think 112 points is a fairly good buy for a dispoable unit of plasma shots with power axe terminators attached and off hand, I can't remember a cheaper source that can get somewhere with all its plasma in 1 piece. As for definately not getting 3 for 1, I said almost 3:1 (and at 336 per 3 units vs 300 per unit I wasn't exaggerating), I gave the Scarabs the default loadout that you have been spruiking and I have been seeing in almost every list that's been posted in the forums while the termicide was kept cheap because that's how you run them, hence the name. Yes, it's a topic on TSons, hence why I was comparing a Sons unit.
I'll leave the debate about axes vs mauls alone, save to say that it's very meta dependant - If you're bashing on vehicles and units with a 4+ or a strong ++, then mauls, otherwise axes. Same thing for chain fist vs melta bomb, save that I like 3 attacks on the charge and the ability to hide in a unit instead of being challenged out against 1 swing with the bombs and saving 7 points, but again, it's meta dependant.
As for getting the sorceror with the unit, if I could trade him in for the points (he's 90, not 120 by the way), I would do it in a heartbeat. The reason why it's worse is because those meagre options are forced on us at a significant price premium when they are, in all reality, not only highly over priced, but also a non-starter when the unit is used in the only way that it's good - With a real sorceror attached. If I had those spare points from the 3 mandatory sorcs, that's 270 points I could spend getting me 12 warp charge (6 more than the sorcs provided) for my real sorcerors to use.
Regardless of if people like terminators or not, there's very little choice in using terminators if you want to use the new formations since both cores have mandatory units of them and nobody wants 2 units of rubricae. Yes, they will want to hear the opinion of people who play with them, they're also likely to want to know how to use them when they get murdered by poor ap volume of fire like every other terminator because they weren't told that Scarabs are only useful in a full cabal.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Fine, have it like this: There are zero lists where simple terminators are good. There is one list where scarabs are great.
This. This is what we should be saying in a tactics thread when people ask about Scarabs. There's no denying that a Full Cabal is great and that Scarabs are nigh immortal, but in any other use, save perhaps a Full Sekmet with Magnus at 3k, you're better served with another option for the job you'd use Scarabs for. Sure, there's some times where you're forced to use them like taking a min cabal where the argument can be made that the min cabal is better than a TSCAD due to taking less rubricae and getting a re-roll on your perils, but outside of that, no, they're pretty bad.
Lansirill wrote:YOU WILL CONFORM
Bad units are bad. Good units are good. A small amount of units are good in certain situations. There's a reason why the vast majority of Dev Cents are/will be assembled with grav cannons and not heavy bolters. There's no point complaining when people point this out.
Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer
Your 2 Wound sorcerer doesn't have any options, must roll on a table which has a 50% chance of getting a spell which will drain your WC pool like nobodies business, and has a primas power that is less reliable then my father being sober on a Tuesday. You would not take that 90 point model as a stand alone model, but for some reason when they stick him in a group of terminators he becomes awesome? No I'm sorry don't point at a stupidly expensive WC battery and say but its super awesome. I can get a ML 1 Sorc with no mark and termie armor and pick a primas power that's not gak, add in a Spell Familiar and your paying 10 points more and are very likely to actually cast the spell, have a non primas worth casting, and not drain your WC pool in the process.
1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.
topaxygouroun i wrote: 1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.
2. Happy new year!
For me no spell familiar and being forced to roll on a table that can't give the SOT the BoT buff is a non starter. A ML 1 Sorc with a Spell Familiar is, cheaper, more versatile, and wont drain your WC pool. In the end it seems like your better off bringing a unit of Regular Terminators in a TS detachment and then allying a non mark Legion to get a Sorcerer, or two, and use those, which will be much more efficient on warp charges and gives you more reliable options to buff your SOT.
topaxygouroun i wrote: 1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.
2. Happy new year!
For me no spell familiar and being forced to roll on a table that can't give the SOT the BoT buff is a non starter. A ML 1 Sorc with a Spell Familiar is, cheaper, more versatile, and wont drain your WC pool. In the end it seems like your better off bringing a unit of Regular Terminators in a TS detachment and then allying a non mark Legion to get a Sorcerer, or two, and use those, which will be much more efficient on warp charges and gives you more reliable options to buff your SOT.
A scarab occult champion knows the Force spell and can give his unit the Blessing of Tzeentch. And he also has access to divination, when a normal sorcerer doesn't. And the new discipline of Tzeentch has great powers. A ML1 sorc is not more versatile than a ML2 scarab champion. A spell familiar is a nice thing, but then again adding spell familiars to 6+ sorcerers in a whole list can end up being very expensive. When our lists generate 25-30 WC, we can afford having one or two sorcerers without a spell familiar.
I'm throwing my dice behind scarab occult termies doing pretty well. I've used them in several competitive games using a full war cabal at 1850 going against standard tau, white scar, and space wolf armies. The terminators were instrumental in all the games for taking down thunderwolf cavalry, stormsurges, and white scar bikers galore. They are great when used effectively against the correct targets. If you guys don't like them, that's fine, but you don't have to be condescending to others who are saying they are finding uses for them.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.
Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.
A 5 man Termie unit in a TSCAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.
Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer
lol the Aspiring sorcerer as many people pointed out is a tax more than anything else. For comparison, I can bring a bunch of unmarked BL sorcerers from the Cycploia Cabal formation in and attached to multiple 4 man TS Termies with combi-meltas and PF.
Unmark Sorcerer- ML2, Bike, spell familiar is 30 pts more than a Aspiring sorcerer: You get a IC that is T5, can move 12" and turboboost, re-roll failed psychic tests, can throw all powers into a single discipline to get primaris (Get shriek and potentially invis). Yes he doesn't have AP3 shooting but he can bring a force axe and cut down TEQs.
Drasius I commend your patience in trying to school these guys, but most likely they are just casual players who don't care about competitive play. If they like competitive play, let them learn for themselves
SonsofVulkan wrote: Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.
Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.
A 5 man Termie unit in a TSCAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.
Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer
lol the Aspiring sorcerer as many people pointed out is a tax more than anything else. For comparison, I can bring a bunch of unmarked BL sorcerers from the Cycploia Cabal formation in and attached to multiple 4 man TS Termies with combi-meltas and PF.
Unmark Sorcerer- ML2, Bike, spell familiar is 30 pts more than a Aspiring sorcerer: You get a IC that is T5, can move 12" and turboboost, re-roll failed psychic tests, can throw all powers into a single discipline to get primaris (Get shriek and potentially invis). Yes he doesn't have AP3 shooting but he can bring a force axe and cut down TEQs.
Drasius I commend your patience in trying to school these guys, but most likely they are just casual players who don't care about competitive play. If they like competitive play, let them learn for themselves
Why do you raise arguments about non marked IC's in a Thousand Son army discussion? Unmarked characters are not part of the Thousand Son army so your example is largely irrelevant. It is about as valid as stating that Scarabs are bad because a Jugger Khorne lord has bigger damage output. Also, you just say completely abstract matters that make no sense. What unit is your bike sorc running in? Is he going around solo with no invul save? Are you giving him a unit? If you are, do you add its cost to your alternative or do you just assume you get that for free? Also what will the cost of the whole unmarked detachment you are taking along your sorcerer? Or you are playing unbound? Long story short, you are arguing with zero reasoning and you are just comparing single models taken completely out of context. You are the one hurting the new players, because there are literally zero conclusions with meaning that can be extracted from your input. And at any rate, your example is pretty bad. I would still have a sorcerer akin to the scarab champion layout rather than the model you describe.
Also this is your second consecutive post where you are -sideways- trying to put yourself in the "competitive dudes" and calmly patronize "us casual players" which "need schooling" by "patient guys". Do not do that, it's a douche move.
Fine, as a competitive player I say they're okay. They aren't great, but with both a Cannon and Launcher and rolling on Telepathy, you got a unit that ain't half bad. Plus the Tzeentch discipline isn't total gak now so that's nice.
I already argued my case several pages back. Most people already came to the consensus that Thousand Son army that only consist of units from the WoM book is not competitive.
The best way to optimize a TS list is to combine other CSM factions. TS can probably bring the hardest/mobile deathstar for CSM right now. A CAD using seerbane and astral grim sorcerers with a bunch of marked termies. Cyclopia conclave to fish for all the best powers and maybe a AL Cad for the mindveil.
Interesting. I'm in the top 3 for rankings of two different factions in the ITC and in the top 20 for two more so clearly I play competitively. I've beaten three standard tournament lists using the terminators and WoM detachments so far and haven't actually lost a game yet using them. I'm sure any failures you're experiencing from using them don't stem from your own inability though. Certainly your opinion here is fact and there can be no way of using them effectively...
SonsofVulkan wrote: Drasius I commend your patience in trying to school these guys, but most likely they are just casual players who don't care about competitive play. If they like competitive play, let them learn for themselves
Yeah, your attitude is pathetic and you're acting like a complete ass. You have no understanding of other people's local meta's or how competitive they are and what tricks they employ to make certain units work.
For the record, there are some players who attend tournaments or consider their gaming groups' to be 'competitive' that recommend Scarab Occult in different situations. Instead of taking the high and mighty road and labelling people as "casuals" because they have a divergent opinion to yours, try to respect that not every area is identical to yours and people have different perceptions of what is competitive. As an example, the difference between what was considered competitive in ETCWHFB as played in Europe and ETCWHFB as played in Australia or the USA was sometimes very pronounced.
lessthanjeff wrote: Interesting. I'm in the top 3 for rankings of two different factions in the ITC and in the top 20 for two more so clearly I play competitively. I've beaten three standard tournament lists using the terminators and WoM detachments so far and haven't actually lost a game yet using them. I'm sure any failures you're experiencing from using them don't stem from your own inability though. Certainly your opinion here is fact and there can be no way of using them effectively...
I just beaten a white scar gladius today using WoM detachments. Omniscient oracles and Magnus and a daemon cad. Anyone can beat anyone with good luck and even greater skills. But math and basic statistics is pretty solid no matter where you play or whatever faq format.
If one of those tournament armies you beat was gladius using the war cabal then I am truly impressed/surprised. There aren't much ITC sanctioned tourneys in my area, but I see people going 3-2 or 4-1 at one or 2 major GT with a weaker codex like Nids or Dark Eldars and they can be top 3 on the ITC list. Still it's impressive no doubt.
lessthanjeff wrote: Interesting. I'm in the top 3 for rankings of two different factions in the ITC and in the top 20 for two more so clearly I play competitively. I've beaten three standard tournament lists using the terminators and WoM detachments so far and haven't actually lost a game yet using them. I'm sure any failures you're experiencing from using them don't stem from your own inability though. Certainly your opinion here is fact and there can be no way of using them effectively...
Do you mind writing up about the effective ways you have been using the new units? I'd really love to read about it!
You are guilty of making up your mind before really examining the actual information.
Costing the different units mentioned as a retinue:
6W of 4++ Possessed : 186pts
6W of 4++ Warp Talons : 226pts
6W of 4++ Termies : 218pts
6W of 4++ Scarabs (removed 2x ML) : 200pts
They don't come out that badly priced from my perspective. The cost of adding one-use Combis on 6x normal Termies will cover Missiles and a Soulcannon. We have to add the mandatory 2x MLs which amount to an extra 50pts, and that's reasonable considering it's 45pts for 2WC in Heralds Anarchic.
Ok. All that aside, yes, there is an issue against AV11+ and 2+. That's exactly the kind of issue to address constructively in a tactics thread.
You are guilty of making up your mind before really examining the actual information.
Costing the different units mentioned as a retinue:
6W of 4++ Possessed : 186pts
6W of 4++ Warp Talons : 226pts
6W of 4++ Termies : 218pts
6W of 4++ Scarabs (removed 2x ML) : 200pts
They don't come out that badly priced from my perspective. The cost of adding one-use Combis on 6x normal Termies will cover Missiles and a Soulcannon. We have to add the mandatory 2x MLs which amount to an extra 50pts, and that's reasonable considering it's 45pts for 2WC in Heralds Anarchic.
Ok. All that aside, yes, there is an issue against AV11+ and 2+. That's exactly the kind of issue to address constructively in a tactics thread.
I thought Scarabs are 40 pts each, so 6W worth is 240 pts. 6W of Termies with mark is like 216. The Aspiring Sorcerer is a 90 pt tax. Edit: oh I see what you did there, but that is not a good comparison, 6Ws of Scarab is still only 5 models compared to 6 models of Termies that can take power axe for free or PF for 7 pts.
I think what Drasius meant is that comparing Occult to 2 of the worse/over-costed units from a very weak 6th ed codex does not make Occult any better, they are just better than 2 bad units.
The bottom line is if TS don't combine forces with other CSM factions, they will not be able to deal with mass AV11+. A single Iron Priest on TW will probably tie up a unit of Occult for the whole game.
Well, what do you have that could victoriously engage a multiwound 2+ model? Any ideas?
Massed AV11+ is more challenging, fun puzzle. But don't forget after blowing up all those free Rhinos, you still have something like 40-50 marines to mop up. In which case, the Scarab Terminators are finally playing to their strengths.
Brian888 wrote: How effective is Heretech at dealing with mass vehicles?
It looks decent as 50% of the Heretech table is 18" Haywire witchfires/beams. But if you chose powers just off of the Tzeentch table, there are a few things there that could handle vehicles but also handle other non vehicle targets.
What's so bad about DoT anyways? Boon of mutation is dud (and the primary isn't so hot, so doesn't really mitigate it,) but everything else looks good. The only downside I see is that it doesn't have invisibility, endurance, prescient, etc.
Brian888 wrote: How effective is Heretech at dealing with mass vehicles?
Quite. 50% per roll to get a hull point stripping power, 33% to get a power that takes away d3 hull points instead. The big one (#6) doesn't even allow saves. I played a game vs Ad Mech where one of my sorcerers got both the d3 hull points powers. I put him in a rhino, turbo boosted 18". On his turn he got the omnisiah blessing to get his guys to reroll to hit rolls. Next turn I disembarked. I cast 2x treason from different sorcerers on a unit of grav dudes, shot his Imperial Knight twice with reroll to hits. Killed the knight. Then my sorc came out, tossed his powers at a dunecrawler. 2x d3 hull points. Dunecrawler died dead. The second power stripped 3 hull points. That means 3d6str 4 rending hits against another target nearby. I chose one of his chicken walkers. Took 2 more hull points from the rending debris. Not bad at all.
topaxygouroun i wrote:1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.
Termie armour is 25, but regardless of that, the sorc in the scarabs costs 90, irrespective of what his replacement would cost. If I'm taking a TS detatchment, I'm taking at least 1 if not more actual sorcs with ML3 and a familiar, so I don't care about the logistics of replacing a sorceror in there, they were always going to be a HQ bunker anyway which makes his lack of fearless irrelevant too and nobody cares the slightest bit about the loss of 1 AP3 bolter.
topaxygouroun i wrote:A scarab occult champion knows the Force spell and can give his unit the Blessing of Tzeentch. And he also has access to divination, when a normal sorcerer doesn't. And the new discipline of Tzeentch has great powers. A ML1 sorc is not more versatile than a ML2 scarab champion. A spell familiar is a nice thing, but then again adding spell familiars to 6+ sorcerers in a whole list can end up being very expensive. When our lists generate 25-30 WC, we can afford having one or two sorcerers without a spell familiar.
So does any HQ sorc (who is casting it with a familiar), div doesn't do much for the sons since prescience is generally overshadowed by the oracular guidance buff (though it is very handy if you're not taking them in a cabal or if you're not taking a full cabal and have Aux choices worth buffing) and many of the other buffs on Div aren't useful in a Sons army (forewarning, scriers, precog in a Full Cabal, foreboding in certain circumstances) and if I really wanted div, I would have much rather used the "spare" 90 points from not having to take a 90 point sarge to upgrade a HQ sorc to an exalted. The new Tz dicipline has ... OK powers for a sorc with a familiar, for a sorc without one, they're a bit useless since they're probably too expensive to cast more often than not. Of the new spells, Siphon is of limited use for a ML2 caster (depending on their other spell), Devolution is a bit expensive at ML2 and treason is very expensive at ML3 for casters without a familiar (or even with a familiar, WC3 is no joke). As for adding familiars to 6 casters, well, if we could be assured that certain casters wouldn't roll powers with high WC costs, then yes, we could probably shave a familiar or two, but unless you can do that or even gaurentee which casters get which power, then going without a familiar is, IMHO, quite a risky choice. Again, running a full cabal at 1850 with non-insane choices generates 21 dice, not the 25-30 you keep talking about.
lessthanjeff wrote:I'm throwing my dice behind scarab occult termies doing pretty well. I've used them in several competitive games using a full war cabal at 1850 going against standard tau, white scar, and space wolf armies. The terminators were instrumental in all the games for taking down thunderwolf cavalry, stormsurges, and white scar bikers galore. They are great when used effectively against the correct targets. If you guys don't like them, that's fine, but you don't have to be condescending to others who are saying they are finding uses for them.
Again, I'd like to make this very clear: Nobody is saying that Scarabs aren't great in a full cabal. It's the quality of Scarabs outside of a full cabal that seems to be the sticking point here. When they can't re-roll their saves, they're just like any other terminator (bad), except they don't have any of the other slightly redeeming features that various other termies do like being cheap, T5 & FNP, troops, combis, T1 deepstrike, [chain]fists, free axes/mauls etc. while also being very expensive due to the mandatory psycher sarge. I have little doubt that you've had a good run with a full cabal, I think that it's the only cometative option the Sons have going for them (something I know you and I have discussed on other threads).
topaxygouroun i wrote:Why do you raise arguments about non marked IC's in a Thousand Son army discussion? Unmarked characters are not part of the Thousand Son army so your example is largely irrelevant. It is about as valid as stating that Scarabs are bad because a Jugger Khorne lord has bigger damage output. Also, you just say completely abstract matters that make no sense. What unit is your bike sorc running in? Is he going around solo with no invul save? Are you giving him a unit? If you are, do you add its cost to your alternative or do you just assume you get that for free? Also what will the cost of the whole unmarked detachment you are taking along your sorcerer? Or you are playing unbound? Long story short, you are arguing with zero reasoning and you are just comparing single models taken completely out of context. You are the one hurting the new players, because there are literally zero conclusions with meaning that can be extracted from your input. And at any rate, your example is pretty bad. I would still have a sorcerer akin to the scarab champion layout rather than the model you describe.
Raising the merits of unmarked sorcs vs Tz marked sorcs is valid because they're coming out of the same book and the cyclopia cabal is a very prominent formation that's had success in other builds, is available in the traitor legions book and is a thematic choice for a Sons legion without the crippling restrictions of being forced into the terrible MoT. Personally I prefer to keep to a pure Sons army, but the mechanical benefits are, if you'll excuse the pun, legion. The biker sorc can be compared quite easily to a Disc sorc, they can both hide in a foot unit and use being T5 to avoid being ID'ed by str8/9 weapons or go hide off on their own and play move-psycher-turbo shenanigans with LoS blocking terrain. As for adding the cost of a unit, that is irrelevant if he is discussing the difference between HQ sorcs as you can safely assume that he's either running solo or bunkering in with the same unit as the other sorc he's being compared to since he's talking about unmarked sorrcs who can join any unit. The whole cost of the detatchment would be anything from 180 for 3 basic sorcs through to ~435 for 3x ML3 sorcs on bikes with familiars, add another 75 if you want them all with sigils. He's not hurting new players at all because the comparisons he's making are real and relevant as you can quite easily run a pseudo "Thousand Sons" army out of the base CSM dex fairly easily, hell, you've been able to do it with the GK book for years and it eaven easier now with mix and match detatchments using the GK and SM books. As for saying his example is bad because you don't like it, I think you're meant to give some sort of reasoning behind why you'd prefer your version rather than his before you can decide if it's bad or not.
You are guilty of making up your mind before really examining the actual information.
Costing the different units mentioned as a retinue:
6W of 4++ Possessed : 186pts
6W of 4++ Warp Talons : 226pts
6W of 4++ Termies : 218pts
6W of 4++ Scarabs (removed 2x ML) : 200pts
They don't come out that badly priced from my perspective. The cost of adding one-use Combis on 6x normal Termies will cover Missiles and a Soulcannon. We have to add the mandatory 2x MLs which amount to an extra 50pts, and that's reasonable considering it's 45pts for 2WC in Heralds Anarchic.
Ok. All that aside, yes, there is an issue against AV11+ and 2+. That's exactly the kind of issue to address constructively in a tactics thread.
And you are guilty of removing points cost from a unit that can't opt not to take part of the unit in a unit comparison. Scarabs are 250 base with no way around that. I wish it wasn't so as there's plenty of better things to spent those points on, but that's how it is. Even then with your points fiddling indulged, they're still coming out worse than possessed and almost on par with warp talons! How is that meant to be any indication that they're good? Can you imagine trying to sell that to anyone with a straight face? "Hey mister, take some some Scarab Occult Terminators, they're slightly better than Warp Talons at surving AP2 fire per point (but still worse at killing MEQ per point) if you don't count more than half the points cost for the sorceror that you have to take!" 6 combis is 32 or 37 points, depending on if the termies are 1 unit of 6 or 2 units of 3, so I'd say it covers the cannon or the missiles and a flamer. the WC however also gets you 2 additional extreme MSU units who also generate their own powers on either div, change or maelific. Div is mostly a wash given that they both have access, but I'd give the point to the Scarabs as they can benefit from foreboding and precog better. Maelfic and change however both offer up some very large benefits from additional units from summoning, incursion and boon of flame through to volume of fire with flickering fire or even str D if you get lucky (though it will be very costly at WC3 without a re-roll and only BS4) and possibly even possession (again, espensive at WC3 with no re-roll, but turning a 45 point Herald into a 230 point LoC never gets old)
AV is somewhat solved by taking Heretek on at least 2/4 of the mandatory sorcs in a full cabal as you've got reaonable odds of getting at least 1 of flayerstorm or curse and 2+ is somewhat addressed by some combination of shriek/smite/life leech/bolt/devolution on all your non heretek sorcs in a full cabal, and by other units such as vindicators, laspreds, forgefiends, Cult of Destruction or other formations if you're not taking a Full Cabal.
SonsofVulkan wrote:I think what Drasius meant is that comparing Occult to 2 of the worse/over-costed units from a very weak 6th ed codex does not make Occult any better, they are just better than 2 bad units.
This. Being shot or being stabbed are both bad choices, even if one is technically better than another.
Brian888 wrote:How effective is Heretech at dealing with mass vehicles?
Depends on how well you roll. If you get both flayerstorm and scrapcode curse on 2 sorcs, you're pretty much good to go since that's 4d3 hp a turn if you get all 4 off (and you should). Rolling with only 2 powers instead of 3 and a free primaris does put a damper on things though since you can't really trade out for the primaris easily in case you roll the same, non flayer/curse power again and the primaris is pretty trash to boot. To put some numbers behind it, with 2x ML3 MozT sorcs rolling Heretek, each one has a 40% chance of rolling neither Flayerstorm nor Scrapcode curse (so, 16% chance that neither sorc gets either power at all) as opposed to 2x ML3 unmarked sorcs, who would have a 20% chance of rolling neither flayer/curse (so about a 4% chance that between them they don't roll flayer or curse at all). Also depends on how mass is mass and what else you've got in your list. If you're up against the gladius and you're using it as a support element to other things, or if it's your only answer to 6 or less vehicles, you should be fine. If you're up against the gladius and that's your only way of cracking AV11+, you're probably going to have a bad time unless you're rolling virtually every caster on Heretek (which is a totally valid option).
Edit:
Lansirill wrote: What's so bad about DoT anyways? Boon of mutation is dud (and the primary isn't so hot, so doesn't really mitigate it,) but everything else looks good. The only downside I see is that it doesn't have invisibility, endurance, prescient, etc.
The primaris is absolute trash, and that's rather important in determinaing if a discipline is good since it's the only thing you can count on.
Boon is pretty junk too, but it's got a very, very specific niche.
Doombolt is absolutely fantastic and props up the rest of the discipline.
Siphon is pointless on a ML1 caster (yes, even in the Grand Coven) and not good unless you've got a fairly sizable amount of casters and a decent sized warp dice pool along with a higher level spell (ie WC2 or 3) on the same caster. Magnus is the shining exmaple of where it works well, the thousand sons aspiring sorcer the poster child for when it's total crap.
Breath of Chaos is pretty bad for a WC2 power. As good as an AP2 flamer sounds, WC2 is expensive, flamer range is very close and poison 4+ isn't that reliable. All together it's extremely underwhelming.
Baleful Devolution isn't bad, but only being able to kill 1 target unless they LOS! a bunch means you also need to pick your targets. Again, much like Breath, this sounds great but you're doing 0.9 wounds to a MC per casting and that's really not that great for a WC2 power. Really, you're either relying on that 6 to wound against MC's or this is the one time you want to target a character in a squad and hope he LOS!'s a bunch of wounds. At least it's AP2, but then, so's doombolt and shriek and they're both WC1...
Treason is ... Situational. WC3 is a lot, so it's going to depend heavily on what's in range and what that's in range of itself. If they've got a unit of dec cents with split fire and a bunch of GK termies standing around, jackpot. Against a DA/SW barkstar, KDK/WE or similar, then you're out of luck. You really have to be doing some serious damage to justify WC3 when things like invis and endurance are WC2 and the other WC3 powers are basically a demolisher cannon [Psychic Maelstrom], a vortex [Vortex of Doom] and a fleshbane, haywire AP3 massive blast [Eldritch Storm].
So primaris, boon and breath are trash tier, siphon is army composition dependant, treason and devolution are situational and doombolt is flatout awesomesauce. Compare this to bio/telepathy/div or one of the 4 copy-paste marine schools and it's absolutely terrible, compared to even the other god specific power tables and it's still pretty underwhelming.
To put some numbers behind it, with 2x ML3 MozT sorcs rolling Heretek, each one has a 40% chance of rolling neither Flayerstorm nor Scrapcode curse (so, 16% chance that neither sorc gets either power at all) as opposed to 2x ML3 unmarked sorcs, who would have a 20% chance of rolling neither flayer/curse (so about a 4% chance that between them they don't roll flayer or curse at all).
I agree to this so much. That's why I am modelling 3 x bike sorcerers to play as a cyclopia cabal. Being able to roll 9 powers on heretech should nullify any need for anti AV from another source. Also having bikes will help to negate the short range of the powers. And of course an extra 2 free WC for a bonus treason won't go amiss. I hesitate to use them though because I haven't found a serious model to represent those-that-must-not-be-named in a tzeentchian army and I don't want to run them alone.
I disagree about tzeentch though. Even though it is worse than other disciplines, rolling the mandatory spell once per caster can yield many surprisingly efficient results, like getting treason on your mandatory rubric aspiring sorcerer (no risk on perils for more precious casters) or getting a doombolt on your scarab champ (increases the reasons for the unit to deepstrike instead). And while siphon is bad on a ml1 sorc, it is decent even on a ml2, and really great on a ML3 sorc and we aren't really playing any ML1 sorcerers other than the mandatory rubric tax. Of course I will agree that it was a spell written with Magnus in mind. Oh and breath of chaos gets much better in an army with an astral grimoire. Yeah, I know, everybody needs the grimoire, but you might as well use it on the guy with the ap2, no cover attack.
How does something like this look for getting Magnus on the board.
Daemon Allied Detachment:
Fateweaver
11 Blue Horrors
9 Screamers
Heralds Anarchic:
5 ML 1 Heralds on discs, 1 Paradox
TSCAD ML2 Sorc, MoT 2x 10 cultists, MoT Magnus
Comes in right around 1850 (it's either a little high or a little low... can always drop down to just 8 screamers easy enough if need be.) 23 WC. Can't say that I'm terribly *excited* by the list, but if I actually like a list that tends to mean it's going to play for crap. It may work better if I go regular CSM so that I don't need to take the MoT. Only downside to that is I have a harder time giving Magnus a 3++ or 2++.
I'd say rolling on Tzeentch first will determine the second table. If you roll a Witchfire off there, go ahead and grab Shriek as well. If you roll the one thing that needs a blessing, go for Divination as I'm pretty sure half of those are blessings. That helps with the bonus towards the invul too.
IMHO, Fatey and Maggie in the same list is a no-no since you've now got almost 1000 points in stuff that doesn't ever want to land, and as such, can't score while both are warp charge hogs but have a terrible cost: WC generation ratio. I just finished writing up a bunch of stuff around the same thing in the other thread.
You've basically got 3 units that matter here, the screamerblob, Magnus and Fateweaver. You can probably lock the screamerblob in combat fairly easy and without the grimoure, they're going to be taking instability tests more likely than not. Magnus is going to be pretty hard to bring down while slinging spells around and Fateweaver ... provides a re-roll I guess? I just don't see what fatey brings to your list.
As for focusing on getting Magnus a 2++ or 3++, how often is he really going to be taking a bunch of wounds with him flying, being T7 and having a 4++rr1's at minimum? I'd wager that Magnus will be ignored in that list 9 times out of 10 unless everything else is dead or locked in combat. It's the same principla as fighting a deathstar - you ignore it and kill the support elements and all you have is 31 T2/3 squishies (20 of whom are not fearless) and a single blob of screamers without a grimoure.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well, what do you have that could victoriously engage a multiwound 2+ model? Any ideas?
Massed AV11+ is more challenging, fun puzzle. But don't forget after blowing up all those free Rhinos, you still have something like 40-50 marines to mop up. In which case, the Scarab Terminators are finally playing to their strengths.
The sorcerer with seer bane can do it but then again most SW IP are ran in super friends such as with a bunch wolves with 4++ from Azrael and a libby conclave that can cast veil. S10 hammers will ID sorcerers on disks. So if a semi-death star with occult termies get stuck with a SM deathstar, the outcome is pretty bad since they also have HitnRun.
Solution is to also run a deathstar like the one I suggested with a bunch of termies with PF and cyclopia cabal to match the Libby conclave. And with the cycl cabal you have much better chances of getting a bunch of good here tech powers to deal Gladius.
Also against vehicles you can bring in a Iron Warrior CAD of 6 single obliterators as troops.
If your going to insist on only using TS models from WoM book then your handicapping yourself in the name of fluff.
Edit: Oh man I couldn't bother to keep arguing and defend good logics, but Drasius did for me lol. 4 or 5 pages back I argue that one should take cyclopia cabal to enhance a TS army, and people scoff at it but hopefully now more people understand it.
Drasius wrote: You are guilty of removing points cost from a unit that can't opt not to take part of the unit in a unit comparison.
Guilty as charged. I'm sure you understand why -- I'm looking to explore the unit from a different perspective. Counterpoints :
1) I don't know why you decided Possessed or Warp Talons were better? They're both on a 3+, so they'll die twice as quickly to AP-. The only unit I listed that fits the criteria I want are the Chaos Terminators, who also bring a 2+. They are basically equally durable for points once you exclude the price of the 2x MLs.
2) I don't think failing to field an extra 50pts of Daemon MSU will be terribly decisive. Regarding powers, would you really take Flickering Fire over a Primaris like Shriek? It's not like the D-attack is not "situational", either. BS4 misses 33% of the time, it often bounces off Invul saves, and even with 9 dice it fails almost 9% of the time. Would you rather throw a D-attack at a 4++ Stormsurge (11% chance of a Killshot. 22% chance of D3 wounds) or a Malediction like Treason with a 100% chance of effect once manifested? Or were you planning to risk Paradox on a single roll on Change? And how exactly is a footslogging T3 infantry character with a 5++ getting a 18" D-shot off against a worthwhile target?
3) "There are better alternatives for points". That's true. However, that's irrelevant unless you mean similar alternatives. Otherwise you might as well buy a FW Wraithknight. Nobody here is interested in proxying a GK army.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm throwing my dice behind scarab occult termies doing pretty well. I've used them in several competitive games using a full war cabal at 1850 going against standard tau, white scar, and space wolf armies. The terminators were instrumental in all the games for taking down thunderwolf cavalry, stormsurges, and white scar bikers galore. They are great when used effectively against the correct targets. If you guys don't like them, that's fine, but you don't have to be condescending to others who are saying they are finding uses for them.
Great to hear actual experience add to the termie debate...
topaxygouroun i wrote: Being able to roll 9 powers on heretech should nullify any need for anti AV from another source.
I think you can lean on Ahriman at least offensively. He's less dice efficient but multi-casting witchfires means lesser need to generate them elsewhere. He's also BS5 and won't miss under Guidance, that's actually an issue for the Cyclopia casters. Ahriman should be able to fire off 3-5 witchfires with the Grand Coven bonus, 97% hit rate. Cabal should get 4-5 witchfires, 66% hit rate. Meanwhile you can conserve rolls for other disciplines, and might also pick up Siphon or Doombolt if you're lucky.
Where unmarked casters shine is defensive buffs. That's really the one thing missing from the Tzeentch discipline.
Yoyoyo wrote: Guilty as charged. I'm sure you understand why -- I'm looking to explore the unit from a different perspective. Counterpoints :
1) I don't know why you decided Possessed or Warp Talons were better? They're both on a 3+, so they'll die twice as quickly to AP-. The only unit I listed that fits the criteria I want are the Chaos Terminators, who also bring a 2+. They are basically equally durable for points once you exclude the price of the 2x MLs.
2) I don't think failing to field an extra 50pts of Daemon MSU will be terribly decisive. Regarding powers, would you really take Flickering Fire over a Primaris like Shriek? It's not like the D-attack is not "situational", either. BS4 misses 33% of the time, it often bounces off Invul saves, and even with 9 dice it fails almost 9% of the time. Would you rather throw a D-attack at a 4++ Stormsurge (11% chance of a Killshot. 22% chance of D3 wounds) or a Malediction like Treason with a 100% chance of effect once manifested? Or were you planning to risk Paradox on a single roll on Change? And how exactly is a footslogging T3 infantry character with a 5++ getting a 18" D-shot off against a worthwhile target?
3) "There are better alternatives for points". That's true. However, that's irrelevant unless you mean similar alternatives. Otherwise you might as well buy a FW Wraithknight. Nobody here is interested in proxying a GK army.
Not really since the unit costs 250 points. The fact that even with a 20% points discount that they're still slumming it with possessed and warp talons should tell you all you need to know about them.
1) If all you want is a unit to eat bullets for an IC, then cultists are the go to choice. 4 points a wound is as good as it gets in our dex (and many others) and cover is free and just as good as an invulnerable in many cases. If you want a unit to eat low AP shots for an IC, well, cultists are still the best bet, but off the comparisons you listed, possessed are the cheapest that are melee capable though if you really want a 2+/4++ then MoT mutilators are 189 points for 6W and are orders of magnitude better in CC than Scarabs. Do you see how low we've sunk? We're seriously comparing freakin' mutilators favourably to Scarab Occult! How's that for terrible?
2 ) Depends on what you're leaving in your backfield. As for flickering over shriek, if I already had a case of shriek in the unit from an IC, then yes. If I was dealing with high Ld 4+ save models (Eg Necron warriors, tau with ethereal buffs, 'ard boys with ICld boost etc) then yes. I realise that the D power is situational, but it does at least offer something you can't get anywhere else without severe risk, not to mention it also deals with something the sons have a lot of trouble with. I'm certainly not claiming that it solves all of our problems, not even close, just that it's nice to have the option instead of a 5th option of shriek that I won't use 'cause I've got another caster with it who has a familiar. Treason is great when you've got something great you can hijack with it. When you're about to be run down by a blood thirster, not so much. As for getting into place, it's not that hard to hide a single horror model out of LoS, but it's not easy to advance too far forward either. Don't get me wrong, it's certainly not the be all solution, just a nice to have thing when it pops up.
3) I do mean similar alternatives. It isn't a total trainwreck when you look at internal matches in our crapheap of a dex, but have a look at what you get in other books and it's more than enough to make you cringe. 6W of Wraiths is 120 points, hell, a min canoptek harvest is 230 points, now you've got 6W of 3++/4+++ wraiths AND a spyder AND some scarabs. 6W of Praetorians is 168 points for a 3+/4+++ and have str5 AP2 as both ranged and melee. 6W of 3++ TWC is 190 points including a powerfist on one of them. 6W of Wraithblades are 180 points for 3+/4++ but are T6 str7 ap2. 6W of GK Paladins are 165 points of 2+/5++ and are psychers, all with force weapons and know hammerhand. The wraiths, TWC and praets all move 12" a turn without needing a relic and are T5, the wraiths are T6 naturally and the paladins can get an apthecary for FNP too. All of these things are what we are comparing against externally and our stuff comes up short. A long way short. So taking something like Scarabs who already underperform in our own dex when there's better escort units and better killy units means that we're in quite a bit of trouble.
Even after all that, there's more issues in measuring with wounds. The Scarab sarge is very vulnerable to instant death, so his 2W aren't really 2W a lot of the time as well as the fact that everything else will also have extra bodies to control more board space and extra attacks to make them more killy. That extra wound is nice for dealing with perils if you cast with them, but it doesn't count for much if you're fighting against actual cc units.
Edit:
Yoyoyo wrote: I think you can lean on Ahriman at least offensively. He's less dice efficient but multi-casting witchfires means lesser need to generate them elsewhere. He's also BS5 and won't miss under Guidance, that's actually an issue for the Cyclopia casters. Ahriman should be able to fire off 3-5 witchfires with the Grand Coven bonus, 97% hit rate. Cabal should get 4-5 witchfires, 66% hit rate. Meanwhile you can conserve rolls for other disciplines, and might also pick up Siphon or Doombolt if you're lucky.
Where unmarked casters shine is defensive buffs. That's really the one thing missing from the Tzeentch discipline.
Most of the best witchfires don't roll to hit. Shriek, beams, novas, scrapcode, flayerstorm, none of them require a to hit roll. It's part of the reason why they're the best witchfires. As an aside, can you please link me to a reasonable list with Ahriman in a Grand Coven? I've heard this a few times but can't find it.
The fact that witchfires generally suck and blessings are the best mean that relying on the former while being deficient in the latter is a poor sign that your armies shtick is a good one mechanically.
Lansirill wrote: What's so bad about DoT anyways? Boon of mutation is dud (and the primary isn't so hot, so doesn't really mitigate it,) but everything else looks good. The only downside I see is that it doesn't have invisibility, endurance, prescient, etc.
Firestorm: manifest + not get denied + roll for strength + roll to hit + roll to wound + get past armor = never gonna happen
There are so many variables in there and if any of them go bad, your doing little to no damage. Meanwhile if you want the spell to have an actual impact your going to have to have every one of those rolls go your way.
Boon of Mutation: Waste of points.
Its a waste of points. Its a "buff" that prevents your 200 point models from turning into a 250 point DP but doesn't stop them from turning into a 35 point spawn.
Breath of Chaos: "Phenomenal cosmic power, itty bitty living space"
Its great for taking out more elite troops especially ones that rely on cover, problem is you will be dead by the time you get close enough to use it because the thing your going after is going to either charge you or shoot you before you can get it off.
Doom Bolt: Eye bolts of DOOOOM!!!
This one is very good, and that maybe part of the problem, its good vs everything except flyers and AV 13/14
New Spells
Siphon Magic: Ugh do we really need that many warp charges?
It neuters a ML 1 caster more then they already are, ML 2 CAN benefit from it, but would be better off getting a real spell, ML 3+ can really benefit from this spell. So whats the problem? Not a single Thousand Sons unit has higher then a ML 2 Sorcerer attached to their units. The Rubric Aspiring Sorcerer is ML 1 and SOT Sorcerer is ML 2. So you can easily end up with multiple sorcerers with a spell that is totally useless to them.
Baleful Devolution: Same problem as Firestorm only worse.
Seriously, it's very similar in everything they simply swapped the roll for strength for a roll for shots, so manifest a WC 2 spell to get 1-6 shots of S 6 AP 2, its not worth it I can get 4 shots at S 4 AP 2. The saving grace is AP 2 but then cover, what you will find is again it looks good on paper but in practice it wont do much due to the large numbers of dice you have to roll. Keep in mind most of your sorcerers are not going to have Spell Familiars so you will have to throw 5 dice at this most of the time.
Treason of Tzeentch: Because when you have a crap discipline throw something in that's so good people can't complain about the tree.
This is a good spell, its situational yes, but being able to trade a 58 point unit to fire a 400 point unit is a pretty good deal, too good in fact. This is bad in the worst possible way, it artificially restricts what other people are willing to bring, not only that it restricts the most coveted models. The models that people spend the most time and money on they will now look at and wonder if they should bring it because they might find themselves on the receiving end of it and cant afford to do that.
Baleful Devolution-how exactly is it "same problem but worse" than firestorm?
Sure, its d6 shots, but its still S6AP2 that ID on 6s to wound (the spawn is an extra bonus), and a focused witchfire so you can use it to snipe out models if the situation calls for it.
Your reasoning why treason is bad is...silly.
Not only it means its powerful, it also punishes the super powerful units that are massive point sinks-and these units NEED balancing factors to keep them in check.
So tzeentch table is a slight balancing factor. its actually GOOD game design to put things like that, though coming from GW its probably an accident.
Siphon is an odd one. total derp on low level casters, and freaking awesome on high level casters. and yes, you need more warp charges. especially in a grand coven that casts an extra spell per psyker. (all them random force activations for +1 invul wont be free!)
So still a 33% to get a derp spell due to that for the sarges.
But level 3s with a familiar, ahriman or magnus will turn this into a monster spell that must be denied. one simply cannot allow the utter madness of warp generation this allows (especially if you throw a handful around)
I had a run at another board on how to make this spell list much better with just minor edits, and you wouldn't belive how little work it actually took.
Move siphon to primaris (so firestorm takes it's slot), make firestorm a large blast barrage, and make boon a 12" spell without the hit part at the start. that's really all you need to turn this table from iffy to a goldmine.
Edit. Looks like Heretech is good to go, my mistake.
Scarabs certainly don't compare favourably to everything, but at the end of the day, make up your mind. Surprise, you accidentally wandered into a tactics thread for Thousand Sons. If you want to cherry-pick the strongest choice from every codex in 40k, go for. Some 5-source tourney players do. But if I show up in a DE thread saying "DE suck, take scatterbikes" it's not a valuable contribution. This is not constructive. Being critically-minded is not the same as being negative and condesceding and whiny, and some of you have crossed that line more than once.
Then the enemy should make sorcerers with treason priority 1.
If I bring a flyer any enemy unit that has sky fire or interceptor is priority 1, usually.
Or i could choose not to take flyers because my enemy can neuter them.
I'd rather take my flyers and attempt to.take out his sky fires.
While I can understand your point of hesitating to take the best units for fear of being treasoned just face the enemy and apply your strategy to eliminate his or her sorcerers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote: Edit. Looks like Heretech is good to go, my mistake.
Scarabs certainly don't compare favourably to everything, but at the end of the day, make up your mind. Surprise, you accidentally wandered into a tactics thread for Thousand Sons. If you want to cherry-pick the strongest choice from every codex in 40k, go for. Some 5-source tourney players do. But if I show up in a DE thread saying "DE suck, take scatterbikes" it's not a valuable contribution. This is not constructive. Being critically-minded is not the same as being negative and condesceding and whiny, and some of you have crossed that line more than once.
I agree. While a lot of points are valid, delivering it with such condensation will be off putting and your message lost because no longer is it about termies but the off putting tone one chose and it's perception.of an a feeling of superiority..
Most of us forget important things like this when we debate.
Skerr wrote: Then the enemy should make sorcerers with treason priority 1.
If I bring a flyer any enemy unit that has sky fire or interceptor is priority 1, usually.
Or i could choose not to take flyers because my enemy can neuter them.
I'd rather take my flyers and attempt to.take out his sky fires.
While I can understand your point of hesitating to take the best units for fear of being treasoned just face the enemy and apply your strategy to eliminate his or her sorcerers.
Most opponents aren't actually accustomed to facing so many sorcerers amassed. At least not yet. Most of them get confused when trying to target sorcerers and some times they even have different priorities in mind (for some psychic scream is public enemy #1, for some others it's the seer's bane holder, for some it's the invisibility sorcerer etc). Not everyone will go after the treason sorcerer, and there are good chances that the treason dude is flying, invisible etc. to begin with. Sure strategy matters, but there are many powers that can hurt the opponent other than just Treason.
Yoyoyo wrote: Edit. Looks like Heretech is good to go, my mistake.
Scarabs certainly don't compare favourably to everything, but at the end of the day, make up your mind. Surprise, you accidentally wandered into a tactics thread for Thousand Sons. If you want to cherry-pick the strongest choice from every codex in 40k, go for. Some 5-source tourney players do. But if I show up in a DE thread saying "DE suck, take scatterbikes" it's not a valuable contribution. This is not constructive. Being critically-minded is not the same as being negative and condesceding and whiny, and some of you have crossed that line more than once.
He really didnt have to make that comparison to show that Occult sucks. We already debated that so many times its like beating a dead horse to death, Occult is not good... You can play whatever you want, but if a CSM player comes into this thread looking to play TS, I hope we did him a favor by saving his money from buying boxes of Rubrics and Occults.
We've got tons of psychic support to make them work, and they are in a unique detachment that helps supports those psykers.
That's different than comparing them in a vacuum to a unit like Cantopek Wraiths, who won't deal very well with Death Hex + AP2 Instant Death + AP3 shooting + Power Swords anyway. In the case where Wraiths charge you through terrain, first you get TL AP3 Overwatch, then Power Swords that attack at initiative. Hey look, suddenly that's not so bad. We'd have to crunch numbers to be sure.
Even Firestorm can find its niche in blasting Cantopek Scarabs. I'm all about discovering potential use. It's not going to hurt you to be a bit more innovative. Replacing Sorcabal dogs with jump termies isn't exactly the hitting the outer limits of creative thinking.
Why don't we get over the desperate psychological need to label everything "good" or "bad" and get back to finding the best ways to employ the units we have.
BoomWolf wrote: Baleful Devolution-how exactly is it "same problem but worse" than firestorm?
Sure, its d6 shots, but its still S6AP2 that ID on 6s to wound (the spawn is an extra bonus), and a focused witchfire so you can use it to snipe out models if the situation calls for it.
Your reasoning why treason is bad is...silly.
Not only it means its powerful, it also punishes the super powerful units that are massive point sinks-and these units NEED balancing factors to keep them in check.
So tzeentch table is a slight balancing factor. its actually GOOD game design to put things like that, though coming from GW its probably an accident.
Siphon is an odd one. total derp on low level casters, and freaking awesome on high level casters. and yes, you need more warp charges. especially in a grand coven that casts an extra spell per psyker. (all them random force activations for +1 invul wont be free!)
So still a 33% to get a derp spell due to that for the sarges.
But level 3s with a familiar, ahriman or magnus will turn this into a monster spell that must be denied. one simply cannot allow the utter madness of warp generation this allows (especially if you throw a handful around)
I had a run at another board on how to make this spell list much better with just minor edits, and you wouldn't belive how little work it actually took.
Move siphon to primaris (so firestorm takes it's slot), make firestorm a large blast barrage, and make boon a 12" spell without the hit part at the start. that's really all you need to turn this table from iffy to a goldmine.
On baleful devolution the fact that you have to roll so many times to try and get to a point so that you can actually roll to hit means that your going to end up failing most of the time. So keep in mind you roll: manifest, number of attacks, hit, wound, they get any cover saves. Think of it this way if you cast it 3 times you should average 12 shots of those 12 shots 2 might actually do damage if you have a 33% failure rate with each set.
Balance is an interesting word isn't it? Means having the same on both sides maybe you can explain how two armies that have access to 2000 posts but one army can take 200 points of the enemy army and shoot it more then the enemy can is balanced? Next point is people spend hundreds of dollars and weeks of time putting together and painting those models, and now there is an army that can shoot more then they can. They are left with 3 options stick the models in a position where they can't see their own army, not play their cool new expensive models, or play someone else, which would you choose?
Siphon is a waste, most of the time you will get it on a sorcerer that can't use it, and the ONLY way to really take advantage of it is to bring a particular formation. I'm sure people that bring a Tzaangor War Herd are just squealing when they get Siphon on their sorcerer.
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topaxygouroun i wrote: Witchfires with no weapon profile do not roll to hit per the faq. Good news for psychic scream.
Yes but keep in mind you have to get 1 charge over the required number of charges to hit the model you want if you the number of charges needed to manifest then you hit the closest model.
Would a handful of un-upgraded heralds in a Heralds Anarchic formation be a reasonable way to get some warp charge? I balk at the idea of just throwing things out that say 'free kill points' and are just going to squish... but, on the other hand, forcing a unit to waste a turn of shooting to (at best) take out 4*10+5 (because that's magically different from writing 45, right?) points seems pretty reasonable, and it's hard to beat 2 WC for the points. It's usually not too hard to find a few corners to hide a single infantry model in, so... it might actually work. Plus then I'm not trying to squeeze in a half-hearted attempt at a deathstar that I don't really want.
Lansirill wrote: Would a handful of un-upgraded heralds in a Heralds Anarchic formation be a reasonable way to get some warp charge? I balk at the idea of just throwing things out that say 'free kill points' and are just going to squish... but, on the other hand, forcing a unit to waste a turn of shooting to (at best) take out 4*10+5 (because that's magically different from writing 45, right?) points seems pretty reasonable, and it's hard to beat 2 WC for the points. It's usually not too hard to find a few corners to hide a single infantry model in, so... it might actually work. Plus then I'm not trying to squeeze in a half-hearted attempt at a deathstar that I don't really want.
It has worked really well for me especially when you use them as bait to get people where you want them.
- manifest should be 90-96% with rerolls.
- # of attacks will average between 3 to 4.
- accuracy is 97% on BS5 models with Guidance rerolls.
- if you fish for 6's, the chance is roughly 42-52% of success.
- let's say there is 5+ save.
Calculated for four events:
- 90% manifest
- 97% accuracy
- 47% of at least one 6
- 67% of unsaved wound
There's about a 31% chance to one-shot a Riptide for 4 dice. That's pretty good considering Devolution instantly removes a ~200pt model and creates a 30pt Spawn. This will drop precipitously on models without good accuracy and without dice rerolls. It will jump if you happen to generate Precognition to reroll wounds.
For comparison, the odds are roughly equal to explode a LR with three BS4 meltaguns, and that's a pretty well-regarded weapon.
- 67% to hit
- 59% to pen
- 33% to explode
- 13% total
- 30% cumulative.
- manifest should be 90-96% with rerolls.
- # of attacks will average between 3 to 4.
- accuracy is 97% on BS5 models with Guidance rerolls.
- if you fish for 6's, the chance is roughly 42-52% of success.
- let's say there is 5+ save.
Calculated for four events:
- 90% manifest
- 97% accuracy
- 47% of at least one 6
- 67% of unsaved wound
There's about a 31% chance to one-shot a Riptide for 4 dice. That's pretty good considering Devolution instantly removes a ~200pt model and creates a 30pt Spawn. This will drop precipitously on models without good accuracy and without dice rerolls. It will jump if you happen to generate Precognition to reroll wounds.
For comparison, the odds are roughly equal to explode a LR with three BS4 meltaguns, and that's a pretty well-regarded weapon.
- 67% to hit
- 59% to pen
- 33% to explode
- 13% total
- 30% cumulative.
I love it take the absolute best possible situation and extrapolate that to everything instead of taking the most likely situation like I did. Know what your right it's an amazing spell. The best part is the end where you compare the 175 point model to a 105 point unit that is shooting at a more durable target.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note how would Boon of mutation work with BoT? Would you only have to cast it once to gain BoT for the rest of the game?
Baleful dev is good to snipe characters and MCs T6 and below. But against Gladius vehicle spam, it's still lacking. Only doombolt is a solid spell against gladius.
Also It's seems that if a WS gladius army bring a culexus and put him in a rhino and reach TS gun line, shooting phase will be devastating.
Yoyoyo wrote:Scarabs certainly don't compare favourably to everything, but at the end of the day, make up your mind. Surprise, you accidentally wandered into a tactics thread for Thousand Sons. If you want to cherry-pick the strongest choice from every codex in 40k, go for. Some 5-source tourney players do. But if I show up in a DE thread saying "DE suck, take scatterbikes" it's not a valuable contribution. This is not constructive. Being critically-minded is not the same as being negative and condesceding and whiny, and some of you have crossed that line more than once.
Thousand Sons have access to everything bar the other cult units in a Thousand Sons CAD, so comparing Scarabs to any of the other units in the dex is perfectly valid. The comparison to other units from outside the dex in the same role was meant to point out the sort of things that HQ escorts will have to face down with a focus on commonly seen HQ escorts for opposing HQ units. If I show up in a DE thread and say "wyches suck, take kabalites" then that's not only solid advice and relevant (though severely outdated and should be common knowledge), it's also the same as coming here to the Sons thread and saying Scarabs suck, take regular termies, possessed, hell, even mutilators instead..
As for not being constructive and instead being condecending, whiny and negative, well, you're the one throwing out veiled insults, not me. I give credit where it's due, unfortunately that basically only extends to a Full War Cabal, Ahriman on disk, Astral Grimoure, Seer's Bane on Exalted Sorceror, the Staff of Arcane Compulsion and Doombolt being good with Exalted Sorcs, Siphon, Devolution and Treason being situationally good. There's only so many times that you can point out the handful of good things about a dex when the bad seriously outnumber the good.
Yoyoyo wrote:We've got tons of psychic support to make them work, and they are in a unique detachment that helps supports those psykers.
That's different than comparing them in a vacuum to a unit like Cantopek Wraiths, who won't deal very well with Death Hex + AP2 Instant Death + AP3 shooting + Power Swords anyway. In the case where Wraiths charge you through terrain, first you get TL AP3 Overwatch, then Power Swords that attack at initiative. Hey look, suddenly that's not so bad. We'd have to crunch numbers to be sure.
Even Firestorm can find its niche in blasting Cantopek Scarabs. I'm all about discovering potential use. It's not going to hurt you to be a bit more innovative. Replacing Sorcabal dogs with jump termies isn't exactly the hitting the outer limits of creative thinking.
Why don't we get over the desperate psychological need to label everything "good" or "bad" and get back to finding the best ways to employ the units we have.
The thing is that while we've got a lot of dice and a lot of spells, you can't cast every spell you have, not even close. Sure, you could pour all 20ish WC you've got into buffing a unit of Scarabs and make them pretty damn good, but you can say the same for lots of stuff and we need a large portion of dice to go towards mind bullets to make up for our lack of anything outside of anti-MEQ. It's different from how almost every other psychers are used in other armies and the idea of just being able to buff a single unit needs some rethinking unless you're running a deathstar.
Wraith's don't deal well with death hex and a relic? Sure don't. Scarabs don't much like death hex/null zone and plasma or grav either, but Wraiths are half the points of Scarabs and will often have a 4+++ and heaven forfend if the mandatory spyder brings a gloom prism for what, 5 points? Also, Wraiths ignore the effects of terrain and almost certainly come with whip coils to be init 5. I crunched the numbers on 3 Harvest Wraiths vs a min unit of Scarabs the other day (for a completely different reason) and gave the sorc force every turn. It took 15 rounds of combat for the scarabs to kill the wraiths for the loss of 3 Scarabs. I then bumped it up to 6 Wraiths to be roughly equal points and the Scarabs were all dead in 4 rounds for the loss of a single wraith. The addition of an Exalted sorc on disk with Seer's Bane and death hex would certainly do some damage, but that's also another 270 points which is another 6 Wraiths, so it'd be close but I think that the fact that you can only reliably death hex a single unit and their increased volume of attacks would mean the wraiths won.
Yes, discovering new things is great, but we shouldn't be saying that things are great without trying them out. Yes, replacing the houndstar with a scarab star isn't interesting, it's also not what I'm advocating. I've already made my position clear - Full Cabal is the way forward IMHO. It's how I'm running my Sons and it's how I'd advise everyone else to do so if they want to get the most out of their army too since there Scarabs are actually good, in fact, they're better than good, they're fantastic.I'll be making minor tweaks to my own list to see if I need to drop a bunch of options on the 4th sorceror to get a Heldrake or something to get me the perils re-roll, but I suspect from what I've seen so far that the reduction in the amount of dice I use to cast to compensate for being even more dependant than before on the psychic phase has meant fewer perils and with an effective entourage to take hits and challenges, losing 1 wound per caster per game isn't so much of a big deal, though it still hurts when the one guy with invis sucks himself into the warp first turn.
Yoyoyo wrote:Did the math for you on Devolution.
- manifest should be 90-96% with rerolls.
- # of attacks will average between 3 to 4.
- accuracy is 97% on BS5 models with Guidance rerolls.
- if you fish for 6's, the chance is roughly 42-52% of success.
- let's say there is 5+ save.
Calculated for four events:
- 90% manifest
- 97% accuracy
- 47% of at least one 6
- 67% of unsaved wound
There's about a 31% chance to one-shot a Riptide for 4 dice. That's pretty good considering Devolution instantly removes a ~200pt model and creates a 30pt Spawn. This will drop precipitously on models without good accuracy and without dice rerolls. It will jump if you happen to generate Precognition to reroll wounds.
Edited
Your calcs are a bit off there [90.23% to cast on 4 dice x 97.22% to hit on BS5 with Orracular Guidance x 46.95% chance of at least one 6 x 66.67% chance of a failed 5++ = 27.45% of instant death on an MC]
For the sake of thoroughness:
- you get ~23.54% for a BS5 sorc with familiar
- you get ~21.97% for a BS4 sorc with a familiar and orracular guidance
- you get ~18.83% for a BS4 sorc with familiar
- you get ~19.78% for a BS4 sorc without familiar, with orracular guidance but using 5 dice
- you get ~16.74% for a BS4 sorc without familiar, with orracular guidance but using 4 dice
- you get ~14.35% for a BS4 sorc without familiar using 4 dice
Again, for the sake of thoroughness, shriek has ~5% chance to drop a riptide per attempt through shear wounds alone with the average being a bit over 1 wound pushed though per attempt.
All of that assumes the riptide hasn't nova'ed his shield when a sorceror is in range though and most tau players will know all about shriek and will probably have their shield up.
- manifest is on 5 dice, 81%
- attacks are the same (3 to 4)
- accuracy is 67% (no rerolls)
- same chance of fishing for 6's
- 5++ save
So, the chance to insta-kill drops to about 17% on 5 dice. About the same as rolling a 6, or in other words, Deathblow on ranged D. Look at the information, and make your own judgement.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Also It's seems that if a WS gladius army bring a culexus and put him in a rhino and reach TS gun line, shooting phase will be devastating.
We are getting a break regarding the Culexus, check out page 9 of the FAQ.
Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.
So, we can target the transport at least. The best way to kill him is probably just hijack an enemy shooting unit.
If he's in a rhino and in charge range you should be able to charge the rhino and block the exit points then wreck the rhino by glancing rear armour and he'll die since he can't disembark. Dependant on rolling high enough to get around to the hatch on the other side, but you can also use another unit. Net exactly efficient, but against a fairly hard counter, it works well enough.
If I show up in a DE thread and say "wyches suck, take kabalites" then that's not only solid advice and relevant (though severely outdated and should be common knowledge), it's also the same as coming here to the Sons thread and saying Scarabs suck, take regular termies, possessed, hell, even mutilators instead..
Fair enough, though possessed and mutilators only do close combat. Scarabs have TL ap3 shooting which IS good, regardless of whether we have it in abundance or not and they do have a ML2 sorcerer attached. You can't say "mutliators/possessed/talons are better than scarabs" in a vacuum. That's not a fair comparison and it only covers 33% of the function of the scarabs.
As for not being constructive and instead being condecending, whiny and negative, well, you're the one throwing out veiled insults, not me. I give credit where it's due, unfortunately that basically only extends to a Full War Cabal, Ahriman on disk, Astral Grimoure, Seer's Bane on Exalted Sorceror, the Staff of Arcane Compulsion and Doombolt being good with Exalted Sorcs, Siphon, Devolution and Treason being situationally good. There's only so many times that you can point out the handful of good things about a dex when the bad seriously outnumber the good.
You kinda forgot Magnus in your list there But I understand that you don't consider him due to low point games. Also Blessing of Tzeentch is a great buff in the book. Still not as good as the buffs deathguard get, but for me it is the second best blanket rule in the traitor legions.
I've already made my position clear - Full Cabal is the way forward IMHO. It's how I'm running my Sons and it's how I'd advise everyone else to do so if they want to get the most out of their army too since there Scarabs are actually good, in fact, they're better than good, they're fantastic.I'll be making minor tweaks to my own list to see if I need to drop a bunch of options on the 4th sorceror to get a Heldrake or something to get me the perils re-roll, but I suspect from what I've seen so far that the reduction in the amount of dice I use to cast to compensate for being even more dependant than before on the psychic phase has meant fewer perils and with an effective entourage to take hits and challenges, losing 1 wound per caster per game isn't so much of a big deal, though it still hurts when the one guy with invis sucks himself into the warp first turn.
I have 6 games with a maxed War Cabal under my belt and I have started seeing some interesting things that make sense in that particular list even though they might sound stupid if taken out of context.
1. You don't really need invisibility. Depending on the opposition, most of the times just sticking your sorcs to the terminator units gets the job done. I was in need of invisibility only in one game, where my opponent stole initiative with an ad mech list featuring an IK, dunecrawlers, lots of plasma and grav. I lost 5-6 terminators on the first turn, so I needed to consolidate and hide my casters better. Other than that, in a maxed war cabal our stuff is pretty evenly spread on the battlefield, so invisibility doesn't actually accomplish much, it only gives our opponent a directive about their next target (the other scarab unit).
2. Having Rhinos on your rubric units is really really worth it, even though it may choke you on points. A maxed war cabal is a slow list with a small unit count. Being able to turbo boost 18" onto an objective, disembark and occupy multiple objectives at once and having an extra layer of protection against ap2 shooting for the first turn is great. Also there will come the time when your rubric aspiring will roll a treason or a doombolt, and in that case you want them to be able to position themselves quickly. It is a nice addition to fighting grav drop lists if they get first turn as well. Deepstrike the terminators, put your sons in rhinos, hide behind/inside buildings. Also, melta bombs on the aspirings are a good investment, with 5 pts you give your tax and objective holder units another role. In higher point games, (2000+) it might be a good idea to add 2x warpflamers to each rubric unit. Yes it is expensive and bad. Yet in this list it offers solutions you otherwise have to seek on your psychic power rolls.
3. In my opinion, things to upgrade once you get to the higher point games are the following: 1. Rhinos on the rubrics. 2. Astral grimoire. 3.Melta bombs. 4. Hellfyre missiles. 5. Warpflamers on the rubrics. 6. Swap a sorcerer for an exalted with seer's bane. 7. Swap a sorcerer for a Daemon Prince. 8. If you already have Astral Grimoire, add an Iron Warrior Cult of Destruction with 3+1+1 oblits.
4. Oracular guidance has some nice hidden side effects. As such, rolling on ectomancy for the scarab champs in order to get a couple of warpshock powers might be better than getting another psychic scream. You trade damage potential for consistency. In a bigger game, a unit of 5 scarabs shooting 3 x inferno combi bolters, a soulreaper cannon, the hellfyre missiles and two -almost TL- heavy bolters with split fire is beginning to justify its points shootingwise. Same goes with baleful devolution. Oh and oracular guidance also works on hth (might seem apparent but some of my opponents completely missed it). Great for the seer's bane exalted sorc.
5. A War Cabal has less use of utility disciplines like divination or telepathy and more of disciplines like Sinistrum. In telepathy, scream is awesome and invis is great usually, but as I said before in this list it is not that good. All the other telepathy powers really suck for us. As for divination, Prescience loses significance because of guidance. Perfect timing is nice, but our shooting isn't anything to write home about. We have ignore cover in our screams, we don't really need PT. Precog is nice on the seer's bane holder, but there's no guarantee that we are getting one. The rest of the powers are useless in our list. Sinistrum on the other hand has some great applications. Death hex can solve the deathstar problem for us. Warp lure can help us deal with enemy librarius convlaves. Diabolic str is also great on the seer's bane guy but also on any force staff holding character. Armour of hatred is sick - depending on your definition of the dreaded "affecting"- can give multiple Blessings of Tzeentch in a single WC1 spell. Warp fate acts as a better favoured of tzeentch and grants Blessing at the same time, and even the primaris isn't half bad.
I missed your previous post Drasius. Transcription error on my part there, it should have been much closer even with integers.
Going back a little, check page one of the draft FAQ for Necrons.
Q: Do Cantopek Wraiths and C'tan suffer the initiative penalty when charging through terrain, despite their special rules which allow them to treat other models and terrain as if they were open ground when moving?
A: Yes.
Anyways. Small mercies.
Scarabs are not in an ideal position to tangle with 3++ (except for the Force Staff). But they've got a 50% chance to generate Warp Fate, Diabolical Strength or Death Hex. Those are a huge enablers to not only them, but actual anti-wraith such as Seer's Bane. So that 50pts is maybe worth losing access to a few combis or chainfists, and a Herald hanging in the backfield.
I'm guessing your Scarab vs. Wraith combat projection was free of any psychic powers, to establish a baseline?
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Drasius wrote: I crunched the numbers on 3 Harvest Wraiths vs a min unit of Scarabs the other day and gave the sorc force every turn. It took 15 rounds of combat for the scarabs to kill the wraiths for the loss of 3 Scarabs.
Seems low. I'm thinking, try giving the Sorc the 5pt Sword. Extra attack and an extra CC profile.
3A(67% for WS5)(67% for S6 vs. T5) = ~1.3W. After a 3++ save and 5++ RP, it's about 0.3W.
So even without the Termie squad, who are awful against a 3++ layered save, that's more like 10x rounds for the Sorcerer to chop himself out.
Now say you get a buff like Diabolical Strength, add Cabal rerolls.
5A(77% for Cabal)(83% for S8) = ~3.2W. After saves, it's about 0.7W.
In this case, the Sorc is chopping out the squad after 4x CC phases. So that sword + psychic buff make a huge difference.
Drasius wrote: If he's in a rhino and in charge range you should be able to charge the rhino and block the exit points then wreck the rhino by glancing rear armour and he'll die since he can't disembark. Dependant on rolling high enough to get around to the hatch on the other side, but you can also use another unit. Net exactly efficient, but against a fairly hard counter, it works well enough.
We talking about gladius, His rhino would be a few inches behind a bunch of rhinos out of LOS. Standard dawn of war deployment, if a War Cabal player decides to turtle everything in a corner, they will still get hit by turn 2. Turn 1 WS scout move 12", turbo 18". War Cabal shooting range is 24" top and heretech powers are 18", so only 1 turn to crack as many rhinos before getting blasted by grav spam with tactical doctrine. Culexus in a rhino has a potential 30" anti-psyker range after vehicle movement, disembark, and D6 run.
It is possibly the worse matchup ever, and it doesn't help when its the widely use SM lists in GTs. And I'm not sure how many Hellfrye and ACs a player can fit into a 1850 War Cabal list, not that many I don't think. So pretty much relying on a bunch of 18" heretech powers or doom bolt if your lucky enough to roll on it. And Treason will not work because of the Culexus.
First of all, the assassins have their own faction. Therefore, no matter the gladius or not, unless I am missing some special rule, the culexus cannot embark on a rhino per the new faq, as its faction doesn't have any transports and he can't roll in a battle bro's transport.
Even if I am missing something and he actually can though, a 30" culexus is really pushing it.That's 6" for the rhino, 6" for the disembark if there is no terrain to roll for difficult, and 6" run at the best of cases. So that's a total of 18" at the very best of situations. Then there's the 12" range, but in order to do this the rhino has to move in a straight line towards its target, the assasin has to disembark in a straight line and he also has to run in a straight line too, or the circle radius gers reduced really fast. Sure, it is potentially possible. It is very much likely not the case though.
Oh and the culexus may be cancelling the blessings, but he's not cancelling the Blessing of Tzeentch, since it's not a psychic power. And he's not cancelling Favoured of Tzeentch either (in a maxed war cabal). So we still get our immortal terminators. Sure it is our single worst matchup though.
topaxygouroun i wrote: First of all, the assassins have their own faction. Therefore, no matter the gladius or not, unless I am missing some special rule, the culexus cannot embark on a rhino per the new faq, as its faction doesn't have any transports and he can't roll in a battle bro's transport.
Even if I am missing something and he actually can though, a 30" culexus is really pushing it.That's 6" for the rhino, 6" for the disembark if there is no terrain to roll for difficult, and 6" run at the best of cases. So that's a total of 18" at the very best of situations. Then there's the 12" range, but in order to do this the rhino has to move in a straight line towards its target, the assasin has to disembark in a straight line and he also has to run in a straight line too, or the circle radius gers reduced really fast. Sure, it is potentially possible. It is very much likely not the case though.
Oh and the culexus may be cancelling the blessings, but he's not cancelling the Blessing of Tzeentch, since it's not a psychic power. And he's not cancelling Favoured of Tzeentch either (in a maxed war cabal). So we still get our immortal terminators. Sure it is our single worst matchup though.
Meh Bring Chaos Lord, put lord on DOT, Stab Culexus in face.
topaxygouroun i wrote: First of all, the assassins have their own faction. Therefore, no matter the gladius or not, unless I am missing some special rule, the culexus cannot embark on a rhino per the new faq, as its faction doesn't have any transports and he can't roll in a battle bro's transport.
Even if I am missing something and he actually can though, a 30" culexus is really pushing it.That's 6" for the rhino, 6" for the disembark if there is no terrain to roll for difficult, and 6" run at the best of cases. So that's a total of 18" at the very best of situations. Then there's the 12" range, but in order to do this the rhino has to move in a straight line towards its target, the assasin has to disembark in a straight line and he also has to run in a straight line too, or the circle radius gers reduced really fast. Sure, it is potentially possible. It is very much likely not the case though.
Oh and the culexus may be cancelling the blessings, but he's not cancelling the Blessing of Tzeentch, since it's not a psychic power. And he's not cancelling Favoured of Tzeentch either (in a maxed war cabal). So we still get our immortal terminators. Sure it is our single worst matchup though.
Meh Bring Chaos Lord, put lord on DOT, Stab Culexus in face.
Not easy with all these WS 1 shane-shena-shaneninaningans he has going for him. Not enough attacks to get through his 4++. Maybe with a daemon weapon. Or charge him with a Daemon Prince But I believe shooting him enuff with TL bolters or Oracular guidance might get the job done. Is the assassin an Eternal Warrior? And does Votlw give hatred against him? Then perhaps even simple dudes can kill him. He doesn't seem to be killing a lot of stuff in hth.
I'll try to get a game in against a White Scars Battle Company soon with either my magnus or my full war cabal list. I have a tendency to like to mix things up a lot so it's rare that I play the same army for even a couple games in a row so I took a short break with other armies but I'll give it a go soon. The only white scars player in my club other than me runs a bike spam grav list but there are a couple dark angel players that often run essentially the same thing.
Drasius, my complaint was not with your comments as you've been logical and analytical but with SonofVulkan who has been coming off more as condescending and dismissive.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Fair enough, though possessed and mutilators only do close combat. Scarabs have TL ap3 shooting which IS good, regardless of whether we have it in abundance or not and they do have a ML2 sorcerer attached. You can't say "mutliators/possessed/talons are better than scarabs" in a vacuum. That's not a fair comparison and it only covers 33% of the function of the scarabs.
Str4 ap3 shooting isn't much to write home about. After rolls to wound and cover saves, they still achieve roughly the same as normal bolters. Our options for evem MOAR! ap3 at least come with a str bump, but the points cost asssociated is quite harsh.
topaxygouroun i wrote:You kinda forgot Magnus in your list there But I understand that you don't consider him due to low point games. Also Blessing of Tzeentch is a great buff in the book. Still not as good as the buffs deathguard get, but for me it is the second best blanket rule in the traitor legions.
I really didn't. I don't consider him because I don't think that he's worth his points, neither in "low" point games like 1850 where you struggle to power him while also maintaining any sort of board presence or high point games like >2k where there should be multiple options on the other side of the board capable of taking him out in a single turn. Blessing is a decent enough buff for doing what you were probably already doing, but it would have been significantly better if it worked like orracular guidance and activated on casting any spell instead of a blessing. It would have allowed us to both buff ourselves defensively while devoting our limited WC to offensive witchfires like a blaster caster wants to do. But alas, wishlisting does nobody any good since we can't change anything.
topaxygouroun i wrote:I have 6 games with a maxed War Cabal under my belt and I have started seeing some interesting things that make sense in that particular list even though they might sound stupid if taken out of context.
1. You don't really need invisibility. Depending on the opposition, most of the times just sticking your sorcs to the terminator units gets the job done. I was in need of invisibility only in one game, where my opponent stole initiative with an ad mech list featuring an IK, dunecrawlers, lots of plasma and grav. I lost 5-6 terminators on the first turn, so I needed to consolidate and hide my casters better. Other than that, in a maxed war cabal our stuff is pretty evenly spread on the battlefield, so invisibility doesn't actually accomplish much, it only gives our opponent a directive about their next target (the other scarab unit).
2. Having Rhinos on your rubric units is really really worth it, even though it may choke you on points. A maxed war cabal is a slow list with a small unit count. Being able to turbo boost 18" onto an objective, disembark and occupy multiple objectives at once and having an extra layer of protection against ap2 shooting for the first turn is great. Also there will come the time when your rubric aspiring will roll a treason or a doombolt, and in that case you want them to be able to position themselves quickly. It is a nice addition to fighting grav drop lists if they get first turn as well. Deepstrike the terminators, put your sons in rhinos, hide behind/inside buildings. Also, melta bombs on the aspirings are a good investment, with 5 pts you give your tax and objective holder units another role. In higher point games, (2000+) it might be a good idea to add 2x warpflamers to each rubric unit. Yes it is expensive and bad. Yet in this list it offers solutions you otherwise have to seek on your psychic power rolls.
3. In my opinion, things to upgrade once you get to the higher point games are the following: 1. Rhinos on the rubrics. 2. Astral grimoire. 3.Melta bombs. 4. Hellfyre missiles. 5. Warpflamers on the rubrics. 6. Swap a sorcerer for an exalted with seer's bane. 7. Swap a sorcerer for a Daemon Prince. 8. If you already have Astral Grimoire, add an Iron Warrior Cult of Destruction with 3+1+1 oblits.
4. Oracular guidance has some nice hidden side effects. As such, rolling on ectomancy for the scarab champs in order to get a couple of warpshock powers might be better than getting another psychic scream. You trade damage potential for consistency. In a bigger game, a unit of 5 scarabs shooting 3 x inferno combi bolters, a soulreaper cannon, the hellfyre missiles and two -almost TL- heavy bolters with split fire is beginning to justify its points shootingwise. Same goes with baleful devolution. Oh and oracular guidance also works on hth (might seem apparent but some of my opponents completely missed it). Great for the seer's bane exalted sorc.
5. A War Cabal has less use of utility disciplines like divination or telepathy and more of disciplines like Sinistrum. In telepathy, scream is awesome and invis is great usually, but as I said before in this list it is not that good. All the other telepathy powers really suck for us. As for divination, Prescience loses significance because of guidance. Perfect timing is nice, but our shooting isn't anything to write home about. We have ignore cover in our screams, we don't really need PT. Precog is nice on the seer's bane holder, but there's no guarantee that we are getting one. The rest of the powers are useless in our list. Sinistrum on the other hand has some great applications. Death hex can solve the deathstar problem for us. Warp lure can help us deal with enemy librarius convlaves. Diabolic str is also great on the seer's bane guy but also on any force staff holding character. Armour of hatred is sick - depending on your definition of the dreaded "affecting"- can give multiple Blessings of Tzeentch in a single WC1 spell. Warp fate acts as a better favoured of tzeentch and grants Blessing at the same time, and even the primaris isn't half bad.
1) I find that I get a reasonable amount of use out of invis to protect my warlord from grav/plasma focusing. With 4 casters, I can freely put my warlord and 1 other caster (usually the one who rolled invis if it wasn't a scarab or the warlord himself who rolled it) in a Scarab unit and have them be safe and let the Scarabs in the other 2 units as well as anny rubricae (who tend to get focused down first since nobody wants to waste fire on a 2+rr1's unit) eat the dangerous stuff until I can deal with them one way or another.
2 ) I definately see the appeal of rhinos, I remember learning the hard way when I was first starting how vital they are for rubricae, though in 1850+ having only 2-3 rhinos on the board as the only vehicles is just going to get them smoked in your DZ turn 1 in my experience. I'm not too sure about DS'ing the Scarabs, I have atrocious luck with rolling far more 1's than is reasonably expected on mishaps (to the point where I started keeping a log of them to make sure it wasn't confirmation bias. It wasn't :( ) Definately agree with melta bombs on the aspirings though, probably on the HQ sorcs too since I've found that dealing with drop pods is rather annoying if they come down out of position of your Heretek casters and a late game dread (or even an early game one if your Heretek powers fail you) can cause real problems but a 42% chance to pop a pod or a 14% chance to pop a dread is a significant increase over having to wail on them until the end of the game with a force staff, especially for 5 points.
3) Not sure I agree with you on 5 and 7 and I've already discussed 1, but as to the rest, yep completely agree in my experience. Adding warpflamers just doesn't seem like it's worth the 14 points and loss of bolters. There's very few things with 4+ armour that I'd be wary to charge with a squad of rubricae though I suppose if you're putting them in a rhino and somehow those rhinos survive then drive-by's can be a thing. I'm really not sold on the idea of a prince though since he can't hide in a unit of immortal terminators, but given the small army size, taking to the air and summoning without perils with the benefit of a re-roll and being able to freely jink would be a fairly solid plan I suppose - though you said before you don't like summoning, so I'm not sure what you're rolling him on? Heretek for the added mobility?
4) I'm not quite so sold on Ecto, the other powers you can get don't set my world on fire bar ghost storm and I'm not a fan of casting WC2 powers on non-famailiar casters. Infernal claws has a decent synergy with them though, a boost to str and attacks is never unwelcome. As for Warpshock, someone else was trying to sell me on it a while ago so I ran some numbers (for a BS4 caster, see table below) and wasn't overly impressed. These are without orracular guidance, so the things that have to roll to hit would be increased by ~17%, even more if you're using a BS5 sorc with orracular guidance (~46% increase for powers that roll to hit over plain old BS4)
Spoiler:
5) I find the tele powers like dominate and terrify to be very useful personally while shrouding means that in a ruin you're getting a 2+ cover which is quite a large step up in survivability compared to your invul against AP2 guns and also offers some protection against death hex/null zone if you can't deny it. I'm certainly not arguing Sinistrum is bad, far from it, that's what my 4th caster rolls on most of the time, but I'm just saying I get more out of the telepathy powers that aren't invis or shriek to the point where it's not so bad if I roll them. Mental fortiude is obviously a non starter though hallucinate, while pretty bad for WC2, can have some minor usage against things your termies want to bash since if they're pinned, you strike at Init and -1 WS/BS/Attk is always nice (though I wish I had paroxysm instead). I'd still trade those 2 out for shriek, but if you're going to be stuck in a unit with shriek anyway 'cause none of your Scarabs rolled invis, I'm not thaaat sad if I roll anything but a 2. Definately agree with you on the many favourable aspects of Sinistrum, even though rr1's and takes some of the awesomeness out of Warp Fate. As you say, warp lure is far better than many give it credit for. The ability to tell a conclave that they're only manifesting with tiggy on a 6 is great.
Yoyoyo wrote:
Q: Do Cantopek Wraiths and C'tan suffer the initiative penalty when charging through terrain, despite their special rules which allow them to treat other models and terrain as if they were open ground when moving?
A: Yes.
Anyways. Small mercies.
Not sure how I missed that. I shall definately be informing our 'cron player at the next opportunity. Thank you.
Yoyoyo wrote:Scarabs are not in an ideal position to tangle with 3++ (except for the Force Staff). But they've got a 50% chance to generate Warp Fate, Diabolical Strength or Death Hex. Those are a huge enablers to not only them, but actual anti-wraith such as Seer's Bane. So that 50pts is maybe worth losing access to a few combis or chainfists, and a Herald hanging in the backfield.
I'm guessing your Scarab vs. Wraith combat projection was free of any psychic powers, to establish a baseline?
I gave the sarge force every turn since that's assured and crons almost certainly won't stop it with their d6. Otherwise it's too difficult to account for what he rolls on (though sinistrum or bio would be the obvious choices) and what power he gets.
Yoyoyo wrote:Seems low. I'm thinking, try giving the Sorc the 5pt Sword. Extra attack and an extra CC profile.
3A(67% for WS5)(67% for S6 vs. T5) = ~1.3W. After a 3++ save and 5++ RP, it's about 0.3W.
So even without the Termie squad, who are awful against a 3++ layered save, that's more like 10x rounds for the Sorcerer to chop himself out.
Now say you get a buff like Diabolical Strength, add Cabal rerolls.
5A(77% for Cabal)(83% for S8) = ~3.2W. After saves, it's about 0.7W.
In this case, the Sorc is chopping out the squad after 4x CC phases. So that sword + psychic buff make a huge difference.
True, but the primaris on Sinistrum is an ap3 blast, not really something that we need help with. I have been thinking long and hard about that 5 points for the sword though, but then I'd need to buy yet another box (or 3) of scarabs, so it's pretty far down on my list of things to try. I guess I could use the other termies to put my hellfyre racks to use and test them out though... I might see if I can snap their hands off and magnetise them so I have the option. Glad I haven't painted them yet now.
While it's true that he's getting out in ~4 rounds vs 3 Wraiths, once we make it points equivalent (6 wraiths), even with the sword and diabolic strength, they manage to tie up the Scarabs for 9 rounds and take out everyone but the sarge (though I suppose that he's the only one that really matters since he's the only one that generate WC). Still a decent result all things considered since they're even points I guess.
SonsofVulkan wrote:We talking about gladius, His rhino would be a few inches behind a bunch of rhinos out of LOS. Standard dawn of war deployment, if a War Cabal player decides to turtle everything in a corner, they will still get hit by turn 2. Turn 1 WS scout move 12", turbo 18". War Cabal shooting range is 24" top and heretech powers are 18", so only 1 turn to crack as many rhinos before getting blasted by grav spam with tactical doctrine. Culexus in a rhino has a potential 30" anti-psyker range after vehicle movement, disembark, and D6 run.
It is possibly the worse matchup ever, and it doesn't help when its the widely use SM lists in GTs. And I'm not sure how many Hellfrye and ACs a player can fit into a 1850 War Cabal list, not that many I don't think. So pretty much relying on a bunch of 18" heretech powers or doom bolt if your lucky enough to roll on it. And Treason will not work because of the Culexus.
The culexus can't disembark the turn he embarks and can't start in a transport, so he won't be able to scout with the rest of the group since scouting happens before T1. If I'm facing the gladius, I'm probably rolling almost everyone on Heretek so I'd say it'd be reasonable to assume that I can drop 4-5 rhinos/razors a turn. We only have 1 guy that plays gladius up here (and he does play WS with grav of course) but he doesn't run it very often. I'll have to aske him to bring it in and see how my full war cabal does against it.
You're right that you can't fit many hellfyres or soulreapers into a full cabal at 1850 (I'm not running with any at all at the moment) but the flayer/curse/mortis/bolt options should be able to clear rhinos well enough if you don't completely fluff your rolls. The culexus is a major pain however, needing ~40 TL bolter shots or ~15 krak missiles to drop him which is, quite frankly, unreasonable for a Full cabal to dedicate that much shooting to 1 model, but you really don't have much choice since you've got very little way to hurt him otherwise. He's certainly quite the pain for us to deal with, but then, that's his sole purpose, so it's kind of to be expected.
Edited because I derped and forgot to put the link to the table in.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Still can't see how a Culexus can ride any transport? His faction doesn't have any and faq says he can't ride on his battle bros' wheels.
The faqs say he cannot /start/ on an allied transport but he can still embark on turn 1.
Umm the Culexus doesn't start in a rhino, he jumps in a extra empty rhino that a Command squad on bikes gets. Then the rhino moves 18" flat out, so yes he will be behind the rest of Scouting gladius forces, which is good so his transport is protected/out of LOS. Depending on how War Cabal deploys, WS will probably be in range on T2, with the assassin's potential 30" anti-psyker range. His blessing nullifier does affect TS's blessing of Tz rather indirectly, a TS unit gets +1 to invuln only if they are affected by a blessing, once that blessing gets shutdown by the assassin they go back to 4++. 4++ against mass grav will chew up Occults.
Yes like I say Heretech is the best answer but its 18" range, so only the exalted sorcerers on disk can safely cast and then turboboost back. The gladius player can also pop smoke turn 1 the mitigate the damage instead of going flat out. Depending on the ITC/Nova mission, its gonna be hard to score against gladius. In several battles against Eldar scatterbike/spider spam, I lost over 60% of my gladius army and still won primary/maelstrom in ITC missions.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Umm the Culexus doesn't start in a rhino, he jumps in a extra empty rhino that a Command squad on bikes gets. Then the rhino moves 18" flat out, so yes he will be behind the rest of Scouting gladius forces, which is good so his transport is protected/out of LOS. Depending on how War Cabal deploys, WS will probably be in range on T2, with the assassin's potential 30" anti-psyker range. His blessing nullifier does affect TS's blessing of Tz rather indirectly, a TS unit gets +1 to invuln only if they are affected by a blessing, once that blessing gets shutdown by the assassin they go back to 4++. 4++ against mass grav will chew up Occults.
Yes like I say Heretech is the best answer but its 18" range, so only the exalted sorcerers on disk can safely cast and then turboboost back. The gladius player can also pop smoke turn 1 the mitigate the damage instead of going flat out. Depending on the ITC/Nova mission, its gonna be hard to score against gladius. In several battles against Eldar scatterbike/spider spam, I lost over 60% of my gladius army and still won primary/maelstrom in ITC missions.
You are mistaken. The blessing of Tzeentch is perfectly clear that it lasts until the beginning of your next psychic phase. It is irrelevant to the duration of the blessing. You can check it on your book.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Umm the Culexus doesn't start in a rhino, he jumps in a extra empty rhino that a Command squad on bikes gets. Then the rhino moves 18" flat out, so yes he will be behind the rest of Scouting gladius forces, which is good so his transport is protected/out of LOS. Depending on how War Cabal deploys, WS will probably be in range on T2, with the assassin's potential 30" anti-psyker range. His blessing nullifier does affect TS's blessing of Tz rather indirectly, a TS unit gets +1 to invuln only if they are affected by a blessing, once that blessing gets shutdown by the assassin they go back to 4++. 4++ against mass grav will chew up Occults.
Yes like I say Heretech is the best answer but its 18" range, so only the exalted sorcerers on disk can safely cast and then turboboost back. The gladius player can also pop smoke turn 1 the mitigate the damage instead of going flat out. Depending on the ITC/Nova mission, its gonna be hard to score against gladius. In several battles against Eldar scatterbike/spider spam, I lost over 60% of my gladius army and still won primary/maelstrom in ITC missions.
You are mistaken. The blessing of Tzeentch is perfectly clear that it lasts until the beginning of your next psychic phase. It is irrelevant to the duration of the blessing. You can check it on your book.
It states if a unit with VoTLw is affected by a blessing it's invuln is improved by 1 until the next psychic phase.
Once the unit No longer affected by the blessing they clearly lose status effect. go ahead and make a thread in YMDC
I do not need to make any thread. The wording is crystal clear. Once a unit is affected by a blessing, it also gains the Blessing of Tzeentch. The Blessing of Tzeentch lasts until the beginning of the next psychic phase. It is not clear that they lose the status effect. Instead it is clear that they do not, since Blessing of Tzeentch has its own duration and is irrelevant of the duration of the blessing itself.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Umm the Culexus doesn't start in a rhino, he jumps in a extra empty rhino that a Command squad on bikes gets. Then the rhino moves 18" flat out, so yes he will be behind the rest of Scouting gladius forces, which is good so his transport is protected/out of LOS. Depending on how War Cabal deploys, WS will probably be in range on T2, with the assassin's potential 30" anti-psyker range. His blessing nullifier does affect TS's blessing of Tz rather indirectly, a TS unit gets +1 to invuln only if they are affected by a blessing, once that blessing gets shutdown by the assassin they go back to 4++. 4++ against mass grav will chew up Occults.
Yes like I say Heretech is the best answer but its 18" range, so only the exalted sorcerers on disk can safely cast and then turboboost back. The gladius player can also pop smoke turn 1 the mitigate the damage instead of going flat out. Depending on the ITC/Nova mission, its gonna be hard to score against gladius. In several battles against Eldar scatterbike/spider spam, I lost over 60% of my gladius army and still won primary/maelstrom in ITC missions.
You are mistaken. The blessing of Tzeentch is perfectly clear that it lasts until the beginning of your next psychic phase. It is irrelevant to the duration of the blessing. You can check it on your book.
I don't have my rulebook with me but I thought you could not move flatout if a unit embarked?
Drasius wrote: The primaris on Sinistrum is an ap3 blast, not really something that we need help with.
I don't think you'd usually be intentionally looking for this power, unless you have some kind of cunning plan. But after exploding transports, dropping a small blast on the survivors would probably be alright.
While it's true that he's getting out in ~4 rounds vs 3 Wraiths, once we make it points equivalent (6 wraiths), even with the sword and diabolic strength, they manage to tie up the Scarabs for 9 rounds and take out everyone but the sarge (though I suppose that he's the only one that really matters since he's the only one that generate WC). Still a decent result all things considered since they're even points I guess.
I think so. Scarabs are a psychic unit. As you said -- we can't *actually* remove those 50pts of MLs, so we need to account for that potential.
- Diabolical Strength we covered, went better than expected.
- Warp Fate can buy Scarabs 9x CC phases against full-strength Wraiths. Since the Sorc will be slowly killing them with the Force Stick, statistically it can go for 7 full game turns. This combat only becomes decisive by failing Warp Fate (on 5 dice, 57% chance over 4 game turns) or bringing in another Force Weapon from your list.
- Death Hex doesn't help the Force Staff, or survivability, but it is useful to more than one unit. With the Spyder removed, Cannon Rubrics and Sword Scarabs can remove 7.5W over two shooting phases (24", 12"). The Scarabs then charge and remove another 4.6W in two CC phases.
This last case isn't equal points, but there's something I want to illustrate. Death Hex is a better force multiplier than Prescience in this situation, which a ML1 Herald can't access. Scarabs have a WS5 Force Weapon, Oracular Guidance, and access to 11 disciplines. With a good power, they're tangling with one of the strongest Formations in the game.
I'm not disputing they will crumple without psychic support or army synergy. Likewise, failing to generate good powers dooms them here. But run the stats on equivalent points of Possessed + a ML1 Herald, I don't think it's going to go nearly so well.
I've never been big on going for invisibility myself. I always feel like it just changes target priority for your opponent rather than saving a unit from being lost. In close combat there are some situations where they can't just turn and attack something else instead, but that means I only really hope for it against melee deathstars. This is compounded by the full war cabal running duplicate units so it's not like an army of space marines running a single unit of grav devastators that they'd be preserving. I'm definitely on board with shrouding and psychic scream though.
I have been impressed by magnus the two games I've run him. I hadn't expected him to get his points back as easily as he did and the last couple turns of the game I've been finding it's safe enough for him to go ahead and land and help with objectives too. Summoning in chariots also make it easier for you to avoid losing too much board control on the table and combined with his fast flying speed means it's easier to get to far off objectives that the full war cabal struggles to reach on its own.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Umm the Culexus doesn't start in a rhino, he jumps in a extra empty rhino that a Command squad on bikes gets. Then the rhino moves 18" flat out, so yes he will be behind the rest of Scouting gladius forces, which is good so his transport is protected/out of LOS. Depending on how War Cabal deploys, WS will probably be in range on T2, with the assassin's potential 30" anti-psyker range. His blessing nullifier does affect TS's blessing of Tz rather indirectly, a TS unit gets +1 to invuln only if they are affected by a blessing, once that blessing gets shutdown by the assassin they go back to 4++. 4++ against mass grav will chew up Occults.
Yes like I say Heretech is the best answer but its 18" range, so only the exalted sorcerers on disk can safely cast and then turboboost back. The gladius player can also pop smoke turn 1 the mitigate the damage instead of going flat out. Depending on the ITC/Nova mission, its gonna be hard to score against gladius. In several battles against Eldar scatterbike/spider spam, I lost over 60% of my gladius army and still won primary/maelstrom in ITC missions.
You are mistaken. The blessing of Tzeentch is perfectly clear that it lasts until the beginning of your next psychic phase. It is irrelevant to the duration of the blessing. You can check it on your book.
I don't have my rulebook with me but I thought you could not move flatout if a unit embarked?
If the vehicle did not move before the embarkation, it can move normally and even turbo boost. It may not Tank shock or Ram though. If the vehicle moved before the embarkation, it cannot move any more for the turn.
This may sound funny but Rubrics actually do pretty well against a Culexus.
Once the Sorcerer gets killed, they only recieve 0.66W every CC phase and they're Fearless so they'll never run. This doesn't include Favoured of Tzeentch either.
So Rubrics can basically take a Culexus out of the game, if not kill it, for about 3-4 turns. Which is hilariously unexpected.
Yoyoyo wrote: This may sound funny but Rubrics actually do pretty well against a Culexus.
Once the Sorcerer gets killed, they only recieve 0.66W every CC phase and they're Fearless so they'll never run. This doesn't include Favoured of Tzeentch either.
So Rubrics can basically take a Culexus out of the game, if not kill it, for about 3-4 turns. Which is hilariously unexpected.
MagicJuggler wrote: That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.
Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.
Yoyoyo wrote: This may sound funny but Rubrics actually do pretty well against a Culexus.
Once the Sorcerer gets killed, they only recieve 0.66W every CC phase and they're Fearless so they'll never run. This doesn't include Favoured of Tzeentch either.
So Rubrics can basically take a Culexus out of the game, if not kill it, for about 3-4 turns. Which is hilariously unexpected.
Your math is kinda off (again), Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.
Rubrics without the sorcerer has 1 base attack each, so 4 attacks that hits on 5s and wounds on 4s, after 4++ save equates to .1666W.... going to take way more 3-4 turns to kill a culexus. That is if TS can even get the chance to charge him with all the bodies and vehicles that gladius can put between them.
Yoyoyo wrote: This may sound funny but Rubrics actually do pretty well against a Culexus.
Once the Sorcerer gets killed, they only recieve 0.66W every CC phase and they're Fearless so they'll never run. This doesn't include Favoured of Tzeentch either.
So Rubrics can basically take a Culexus out of the game, if not kill it, for about 3-4 turns. Which is hilariously unexpected.
Your math is kinda off (again), Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.
Rubrics without the sorcerer has 1 base attack each, so 4 attacks that hits on 5s and wounds on 4s, after 4++ save equates to .1666W.... going to take way more 3-4 turns to kill a culexus. That is if TS can even get the chance to charge him with all the bodies and vehicles that gladius can put between them.
We got Astral Grimoire now. If we really need to assault something, we can. Not sure if we would want to though. Personally I would feel better charging the culexus with a pandaemoniad blue horror unit or something.
Lansirill wrote: What's so bad about DoT anyways? Boon of mutation is dud (and the primary isn't so hot, so doesn't really mitigate it,) but everything else looks good. The only downside I see is that it doesn't have invisibility, endurance, prescient, etc.
Is Boon of Mutation really that bad, though? On a scarab sorcerer, you've got about a 92% chance of not suffering the S4 AP- wound. Once you're rolling on the actual boon table, you only have a slightly-less-than 6% chance of turning into a Spawn. Otherwise, you have a little-over 17% chance of nothing happening, and a roughly 75% chance of getting something good (potentially very good, if you roll a 64 on the boon table).
Boon is a nightmare logistics wise. It is already hard to keep track of all the powers per sorcerer, sorcerers per unit, warlord traits, tactical objectives etc. Then they go and add a spell to give random buff to specific sorcerers. As far as boring and time-consuming goes, it ranks up there along with soul blaze. And in all my games I just act as if my models don't have soul blaze anyways. So many extra useless dice and unit counters... makes the game long and boring.
To me, the cost that is hard to stomach is the warp charge one. I've generally got higher priority spells to use those dice on. Maybe in the first turn when there isn't much else in range?
MagicJuggler wrote: That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.
Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.
It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).
MagicJuggler wrote: That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.
Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.
It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).
I haven't tried it out on the table, but just based on the text Firestorm seems like an OK horde thinner, if nothing else.
MagicJuggler wrote: That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.
Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.
It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).
I haven't tried it out on the table, but just based on the text Firestorm seems like an OK horde thinner, if nothing else.
When you try it you will realize it is really really bad. Tremendously bad to be precise. For the same WC cost, Sinistrum offers a primaris that is a str 5 blast (above the average firestorm roll) and offers ap3 instead of ap-. The lore of tzeentch primaris is really really bad. I can't understand why they did not change the primaris and Boon since they went out of the way to update the lore anyways. Changing the firestorm to a large blast would go a long way to actually offer something (although it would still be situational at best). And Boon should have gone out of the window all together, along with all the favoured of the gods roll and the need for challenges in the first place. Anachronistic mechanics that offer zero functionality and add little-to-zero to the fluff and just make the game slow and boring should make way for new stuff. Alas, it is not this day.
Brian888 wrote:Is Boon of Mutation really that bad, though? On a scarab sorcerer, you've got about a 92% chance of not suffering the S4 AP- wound. Once you're rolling on the actual boon table, you only have a slightly-less-than 6% chance of turning into a Spawn. Otherwise, you have a little-over 17% chance of nothing happening, and a roughly 75% chance of getting something good (potentially very good, if you roll a 64 on the boon table).
A 6% chance of killing a 90 point otherwise almost indestructible model (In a full war cabal) for a likely useless "reward" and costing precious warp charge isn't my idea of good or meh.
MagicJuggler wrote:It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).
Anyone who complained would quickly be taken out the back beaten and then shot. I wish doombolt was the primaris personally, though I'd definately accept flickering as a more than welcome substitute.
Brian888 wrote:I haven't tried it out on the table, but just based on the text Firestorm seems like an OK horde thinner, if nothing else.
- You've got to manifest (not that difficult, but still a reasonable chance for failure), we'll be generous, lets say 2 dice with a spell familiiar - that's a 93.75% success rate.
- The you can be denied (I certainly wouldn't waste deny dice on it, but it can happen), we'll say the enemy doesn't bother to dispel - still at 93.75% success
- Then you determine if it hits - assuming a BS4 caster that's about 61.11% chance that you hit what you aimed at, though if you're shooting into a hoarde and aim for roughly the centre, you can't really miss. Again, we'll be generous and say you hit. Still 93.75%
- Then comes the str. d6 + 1 = 4.5 on average. Not terrible, but the very real possibility of being str2 means it's not something to be counted on. Anyway, we'll ge generous again and assume since we're fighting hoardes that we're wounding against T3. All good so far.
- Now, how many hits did we do? In a perfect world, probably 1, but since hoarde players don't have that sort of time, again we'll be generous and say 3 which is a rather high number for a small blast, but whatever. that's ~2.25 wounds. It's AP- so even cultists are getting an armour save, but cover is plentiful and hoarde players aren't silly, so we'll say they're saving on 5's which cut's it down to 1.5 unsaved wounds.
- We then generate 1.5 x d3 [average of 2] str3 ap- hits due to the Inferno special rule, which cause another 1 unsaved wounds.
- So, once we account for fluffing our rolls 6.25% of the time, we're down to [1.5+1] * 0.9375 = ~2.34 unsaved wounds. You've killed 2 cultists/termagaunts.guardsmen assuming everything went pretty much perfectly. 8-10 points is pretty pathetic and nor even worth the posibility of periling our caster.
Against something like marines, even assuming your casting stays the same and they don't deny, you're looking at 1 hit, wounding on 3's or 4's with a 3+ save [0.19 unsaved wounds] and probably not even rolling for that additional d3 hits and the grand total is ~0.22 unsaved wounds against MEQ's. Does that sound like a good thing to cast, taking 4-5 turns to kill a single Marine or killing 2 guardsmen a turn with literally everything going at better than average success?
MagicJuggler wrote: That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.
Yes but psychic focus is not the only way to generate a primaris. It just gives you the primaris for free. During generation you can swap a rolled power for that disp's primaris. Alot of people get this rule wrong.
It's not necessarily the point so much as that the power you get in exchange (Firestorm) is so hilariously terrible. If Thousand Sons got Flickerfire as their Chaos Primaris, I seriously doubt there would be complaining (especially when you could put it on a War Cabal Ahriman!).
So the problem is that we get a garbage primaris for free and that prevents us from getting a free primaris in another disp? Then I agree. Forced generation on marks is stupid and should be over turned in 8th. But it does not prevent us from swapping powers for other better primaris. Sorry If I got the intent wrong on your post. Ive seen a few people stating lately that marks sorcs cant get other primaris powers, which is untrue of course.
How the Warp are Thousand Sons supposed to beat Grey Knights?
Grey Knights get Mastery Levels throughout their army, but in practice they exist to either fuel big powers from the Librarian or to make it easier to deny.
They can get Adamantium Will on their units for 5 points apiece.
They re-roll 1s to deny.
The army is majority 2+ armor saves, and doesn't have many "big guns" worth using Treason on...
How the Warp are Thousand Sons supposed to beat Grey Knights?
Grey Knights get Mastery Levels throughout their army, but in practice they exist to either fuel big powers from the Librarian or to make it easier to deny.
They can get Adamantium Will on their units for 5 points apiece.
They re-roll 1s to deny.
The army is majority 2+ armor saves, and doesn't have many "big guns" worth using Treason on...
The one time I played them I drew but I Shrieked both Dread Knights to death with Ahriman and an Exalted Sorc in a termie squad first turn after he ran right up to my front line with them. Next round I shot and wounded one, but put INV on a rubric squad that was face to face with the second one, but the previous Ex Sorc was with disc and Seer's Bane and just ripped it a new one. As for the rest, Grimoire on the Termies let them get close enough to shoot and slaughter anything with a 3+. I just ignored his terminators as he deep struck them some distance away to be safe. We did end up drawing, and Ahriman peril'd himself to death but points wise, I clearly came out ahead.
How the Warp are Thousand Sons supposed to beat Grey Knights?
Grey Knights get Mastery Levels throughout their army, but in practice they exist to either fuel big powers from the Librarian or to make it easier to deny.
They can get Adamantium Will on their units for 5 points apiece.
They re-roll 1s to deny.
The army is majority 2+ armor saves, and doesn't have many "big guns" worth using Treason on...
Psychic shriek, doombolts, seer's bane. Adamantium will or not, they have nowhere near the amount of WC that we can have.
Considering that a 5-man unit of GK Terminators costs very similar to a basic 5-man unit of Rubrics though and grants the same number of WC...
...and what happens if the GK Librarian rolls Libraries and then gets the aura of 4++ vs Witchfires? That's just going to make things even more awkward.
MagicJuggler wrote: Considering that a 5-man unit of GK Terminators costs very similar to a basic 5-man unit of Rubrics though and grants the same number of WC...
...and what happens if the GK Librarian rolls Libraries and then gets the aura of 4++ vs Witchfires? That's just going to make things even more awkward.
And what happens if he doesn't? And what if he does? Don't you plan to deny anything with your 25+ warp charges on their turn? We have a much better psychic phase and we have better saves. They have better shooting and their knights. We'll play to our strengths. Scream the knights, doombolt the terminators, seer's bane on an exalted on a disc. Keep our distance, use our blessing of tzeentch to outlast them. Don't know where all the panic comes from. GK are a slow list.
For those running the successful maxed cabal at 1850, how are you building it?
with minimum rubrics and minimum scarabs, you have room for maybe 1 relic (seers bane or grimoire) if you want ml3 and familiars on the rest of your sorcerers. and that's if you take an exalted or ahriman as a warlord
In a smaller list, where one cannot afford ALL the toys, who would you go for as your warlord?
1-Arhiman on disk
2-Exalted Sorcerer with Seer's Bane on disk?
3-some sort of prince setup
Both are good, both do different things, both are fething awesome when used right.
But who's the better "man"?
(lovely thing about 1ksons, no point asking what's the rest of the list, its pretty much the same XD)
Also, for rubrics.
A rhino is a worthy investment?
And if so, what about a combi-melta? seems like its a way to sneak in a few melta shots people are probably going to forget are even there (who looks at rhinos for melta anyway?), though a 45 point rihno is getting expensive. especially when everything else is already expensive (and odds are, the rihno is getting shot at anyways)
SonsofVulkan wrote: Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.
You know Rubrics have a 4++ save, right? It's .667W. You also messed up your offensive analysis, you calculated 1/2 of the actual CC output and didn't include either shooting damage or charge bonuses. At the end of the day, you don't want the Culexus running around chucking grenades at your 260pt HQs. So somebody has to step up to the plate.
lessthanjeff wrote: To me, the cost that is hard to stomach is the warp charge one. I've generally got higher priority spells to use those dice on. Maybe in the first turn when there isn't much else in range?
I think so. Boon gives you a way to expend unused dice other than Summoning. The bonuses are worthwhile if you can manipulate the table. It's awesome on a 250+ pt character with CC powers, but that 5.6% chance of Spawnhood will eventually cost games. Fateweaver is too expensive, the Tzeentch table is unreliable. A Dark Apostle is probably your only practical option (drops Spawnhood to 0.31%). More hoops to jump through. It's really too bad the TS Sorcs aren't simply immune to 21-22 and 65-66 as a Faction bonus, that was the whole point of the Rubric.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I can't understand why they did not change the primaris and Boon since they went out of the way to update the lore anyways.
I don't think they changed any of the other CSM disciplines, right? They're probably waiting on a new codex release.
MagicJuggler wrote: Considering that a 5-man unit of GK Terminators costs very similar to a basic 5-man unit of Rubrics though and grants the same number of WC...
...and what happens if the GK Librarian rolls Libraries and then gets the aura of 4++ vs Witchfires? That's just going to make things even more awkward.
And what happens if he doesn't? And what if he does? Don't you plan to deny anything with your 25+ warp charges on their turn? We have a much better psychic phase and we have better saves. They have better shooting and their knights. We'll play to our strengths. Scream the knights, doombolt the terminators, seer's bane on an exalted on a disc. Keep our distance, use our blessing of tzeentch to outlast them. Don't know where all the panic comes from. GK are a slow list.
How are you getting 25 WC for 1850, while having an actual army to back it up?
SonsofVulkan wrote: Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.
You know Rubrics have a 4++ save, right? It's .667W. You also messed up your offensive analysis, you calculated 1/2 of the actual CC output and didn't include either shooting damage or charge bonuses. At the end of the day, you don't want the Culexus running around chucking grenades at your 260pt HQs. So somebody has to step up to the plate.
I did factor in the 4++ save, I accidentally multiply by .833 instead of .667 for to hit rolls, but its still way better than what the rubrics can do.
What half? Who is to say rubrics gets to charge the assassin and vice versa? Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back. Math don't lie, you can't win with a single rubrics unit.
Now you can keep arguing other factors, Gladius has way more fire power and bodies to put on the board. They could easily bubble wrap the assassin and prevent you from charging or hide him behind a rhino out of LOS.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Culexus has 4 base attacks that hits on 3s and wounds on 4s that ignores armor save which equates to .8333W, so he could possibly kill at least 1 Rubrics per turn.
You know Rubrics have a 4++ save, right? It's .667W. You also messed up your offensive analysis, you calculated 1/2 of the actual CC output and didn't include either shooting damage or charge bonuses. At the end of the day, you don't want the Culexus running around chucking grenades at your 260pt HQs. So somebody has to step up to the plate.
I did factor in the 4++ save, I accidentally multiply by .833 instead of .667 for to hit rolls, but its still way better than what the rubrics can do.
What half? Who is to say rubrics gets to charge the assassin and vice versa? Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back. Math don't lie, you can't win with a single rubrics unit.
Now you can keep arguing other factors, Gladius has way more fire power and bodies to put on the board. They could easily bubble wrap the assassin and prevent you from charging or hide him behind a rhino out of LOS.
Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.
Ericthegreen wrote:For those running the successful maxed cabal at 1850, how are you building it?
with minimum rubrics and minimum scarabs, you have room for maybe 1 relic (seers bane or grimoire) if you want ml3 and familiars on the rest of your sorcerers. and that's if you take an exalted or ahriman as a warlord
My spare 90 points has been going to an exalted upgrade (60) for 1 sorceror since I like having the extra wound for my warlord and the Astral Grimoure (30). Most recently however I have been toying with the idea of dropping back to 4 normal sorcerors and using those 60 points for melta bombs and some AoDG's to deal with the influx of walkers and drop pods that have appeared without resorting to taking nothing but Heretek on every caster. The Astral Grimoure has been far, far too useful not to include so far as the ability to have a larger threat radius for a unit has led to a tactical flexibility I haven't enjoyed with Thousand Sons for, well ... ever. I will have to try out Ahriman as warlord though, as it not only gets me a 3W warlord, but also assured infiltrate to address at least some of the mobility issues and another WC is rarely a bad thing.
BoomWolf wrote:
1-Arhiman on disk
2-Exalted Sorcerer with Seer's Bane on disk?
3-some sort of prince setup
You can't afford the first 2 at 1850 if you have ML3 and familiars on the other 3 sorcs and any prince at 230 points is generally going to be a crappy one since with just MoT and wings he's 200 before familiar, armour or caster levels.
BoomWolf wrote:Also, for rubrics.
A rhino is a worthy investment?
And if so, what about a combi-melta? seems like its a way to sneak in a few melta shots people are probably going to forget are even there (who looks at rhinos for melta anyway?), though a 45 point rihno is getting expensive. especially when everything else is already expensive (and odds are, the rihno is getting shot at anyways)
Rhinos are always great, but again, if you want ML3 casters at 1850, you've only g7ot 90 spare points, so the question becomes is 2 rhinos better than guns on Scarabs or upgrades on HQ sorcs? I'm of the opinion that it isn't, but others might be finding differently as I haven't tried them out with a pair of rhinos yet. I will say that I tried to make Sons work without rhinos for ages previously and never had much success while my win rate jumped markedly as soon as I included rhinos previously. I think I'll try Ahriman as warlord before I hand over such an easy source of first blood however, especially given that the army is reasonably difficult to get first blood off if they don't take them. As for the meltas, it might work once, but never against the same opponent and even then, I'd wager that your rhinos are going to be smoking wreckage before you get to fire them since there will be absolutely no other vehicles on the field.
eosgreen wrote:has anyone come to decide the "ideal"number of flamers to not be overkill? also want to mount all my rubrics in rhinos.
The ideal number of flamers is 0 IMHO, though if you're running mounted rubricae, then 1 or 2 could be used for drive-bys but I'd still be wary of the increased cost and of handing out FNP more often than doing the extra wounds.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.
I think that he's trying to point out a very hard counter to almost any build we come up with that can easily slot into one of the most common tournament armies that's not eldar, one that isn't even included with the intent to counter us, just that it happens to shut us down so hard to the point where there's not much point even putting armies on the table unless your opponent has had a lobotomy. How do you counter it with a full war cabal? I have no idea. I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder. But that is definately not something to be relied upon, especially since if you don't kill him, you're next up on the chopping block since unless you've got another sorceror to feed him, you're getting challenged next at initiative more than you with instant death ap2 that hits on 3's. The 40 odd bolter shots that it takes to bring him down once he's out of a rhino that you're going to have a hard time popping is probably more than your whole army can manage in a turn. Again, this is a tactics thread, problems like this are something to be brought to the attention of all Sons players so they're not completely out in the cold when they face it for the first time.
BoomWolf wrote: Perhaps I should have been clear about this, I'm not running a deck-out war cabal.
Don't have the terminators for it, just 1 set of prospero marines and a few random CSM units from before.
My questions was for generic 1ksons, not full cabal 1ksons.
There, you really can't play unless 2000 points methinks.
In that case, yes, rhinos are virtually mandatory IMHO unless you're running Ahriman, and sometimes even then. The mobility boost is huge as getting them to midfield is one of the few things that can help keep them relevent as they can punish units out of cover as well as threaten quite a few things with rapidfire and a charge as well as holding up quite a few things that they can't hurt so well but would chew through normal marines like hammernators or GK. The fact that it often buys them a round of not getting punished by anti infantry guns is also a blessing as the wreck can usually serve to block LOS and since they're fearless, they don't care about their transport getting trashed.
As to the meltas, well, I still doubt it's going to work on anyone more than once, but yeah, as long as you've got something else more pressing for them to shoot at, putting a combi on a rhino isn't the worst use of points you could come up with. I can't say that I've tried it myself, but I imagine that you'd get some use out of it. Having said that, even when I run vindicators to draw fire from my Sons, my rhinos are still wrecks by the bottom of turn 2. At the end of the day, it's only 20-30 points and should probably not be make or break for your list so give it a bash and let us know how it goes.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.
I think that he's trying to point out a very hard counter to almost any build we come up with that can easily slot into one of the most common tournament armies that's not eldar, one that isn't even included with the intent to counter us, just that it happens to shut us down so hard to the point where there's not much point even putting armies on the table unless your opponent has had a lobotomy. How do you counter it with a full war cabal? I have no idea. I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder. But that is definately not something to be relied upon, especially since if you don't kill him, you're next up on the chopping block since unless you've got another sorceror to feed him, you're getting challenged next at initiative more than you with instant death ap2 that hits on 3's. The 40 odd bolter shots that it takes to bring him down once he's out of a rhino that you're going to have a hard time popping is probably more than your whole army can manage in a turn. Again, this is a tactics thread, problems like this are something to be brought to the attention of all Sons players so they're not completely out in the cold when they face it for the first time.
Hellfyre Missle Racks are S 8 and unless my memory fails me culexus is T 4 without Eternal Warrior, prescience on a squad and shooting at him should down him in 3 or 4 turns half that for 2 squads, or if your really feeling froggy having 2 squads of SOT with Heavy Warp Flamers hit him at the same time should do the trick. Flamers seem to be the best option since they are fairly cheap and can still shoot at him because considered BS 1 is not snap shots.
topaxygouroun i wrote:Thousand Sons lists are worse than the most optimized list currently in the game. Same goes for all CSM, Orks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Daemons etc. We all know this, it is not actually news. What's the point you are trying to make? That if what is the best list in the game also specifically tailors against ours by adding anti-psyker assassins then it will win? Well that's shocking. Or do you expect Thousand Son lists to suddenly stop using psychers because Gladiuses have Culexii? I am trying to find the contribution in this but I fail to do so.
I think that he's trying to point out a very hard counter to almost any build we come up with that can easily slot into one of the most common tournament armies that's not eldar, one that isn't even included with the intent to counter us, just that it happens to shut us down so hard to the point where there's not much point even putting armies on the table unless your opponent has had a lobotomy. How do you counter it with a full war cabal? I have no idea. I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder. But that is definately not something to be relied upon, especially since if you don't kill him, you're next up on the chopping block since unless you've got another sorceror to feed him, you're getting challenged next at initiative more than you with instant death ap2 that hits on 3's. The 40 odd bolter shots that it takes to bring him down once he's out of a rhino that you're going to have a hard time popping is probably more than your whole army can manage in a turn. Again, this is a tactics thread, problems like this are something to be brought to the attention of all Sons players so they're not completely out in the cold when they face it for the first time.
Hellfyre Missle Racks are S 8 and unless my memory fails me culexus is T 4 without Eternal Warrior, prescience on a squad and shooting at him should down him in 3 or 4 turns half that for 2 squads, or if your really feeling froggy having 2 squads of SOT with Heavy Warp Flamers hit him at the same time should do the trick. Flamers seem to be the best option since they are fairly cheap and can still shoot at him because considered BS 1 is not snap shots.
Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?
Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah
The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.
Drasius wrote: I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder.
Not going to work, remember the Culexus applies a -3 LD debuff to psykers within 12".
SonsofVulkan wrote: Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back.
The psyk-out grenade is a blast weapon, it removes the charge bonus from the Aspiring Sorc but it cannot be fired in overwatch. The Animus Speculum cannot overwatch, ever. It's literally written on the weapon profile. Plodding 6" towards the Assassin is unnecessary, jump them. It will cost you a use of Astral Grimoire but shutting down a Culexus is important. You're not going to fail a 3" charge often.
I'd still expect the Rubrics to lose the majority of combats, but you are stating a lot of incorrect information. Try this -- what happens when you explode a Rhino with a Rubric Squad nearby, do you lose Blessing of Tzeentch and Oracular Guidance? Or will the Rubrics be fighting him for 2x CC phases on a 3++ with rr1s?
Drasius wrote: I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder.
Not going to work, remember the Culexus applies a -3 LD debuff to psykers within 12".
SonsofVulkan wrote: Let say the assassin is 15" away, you move 6" close to within rapid fire, 9 shots after saves equates to .375W. Then on the assassins turn he proceeds to hit them with animus follow by psyk-out grenade. In CC, the assassin also swings first potentially killing somebody before rubrics swings back.
The psyk-out grenade is a blast weapon, it removes the charge bonus from the Aspiring Sorc but it cannot be fired in overwatch. The Animus Speculum cannot overwatch, ever. It's literally written on the weapon profile. Plodding 6" towards the Assassin is unnecessary, jump them. It will cost you a use of Astral Grimoire but shutting down a Culexus is important. You're not going to fail a 3" charge often.
I'd still expect the Rubrics to lose the majority of combats, but you are stating a lot of incorrect information. Try this -- what happens when you explode a Rhino with a Rubric Squad nearby, do you lose Blessing of Tzeentch and Oracular Guidance? Or will the Rubrics be fighting him for 2x CC phases on a 3++ with rr1s?
Your going to attach the Astral grim sorcerer to a squad of Rubrics, are you serious? Ok even if you did, your assuming you will jump over a bunch of rhinos and bodies of marines to be within decent charge range and with a clear lane? Then you assume you can blow up his rhino? With what? Heretech spells can't blow up vehicles, you only can rely on doom bolt and the one shot lascannon (thats IF you have LOS), so now let me ask you how many Hellfrye missiles you have in your 1850 War Cabal list? The odds for you to get the all right spells and then expect your opponent to position their units like a newbie is quite low...
So let say in the perfect scenario where that happens, your astral grim Rubrics jumps within 6" of the assassin inside a crater of his exploded rhino, how are you going to cast a blessing on that Rubric unit when your in his anti-psyker bubble?? You are going to charge him naked without Oracular guidance or the Blessing Tz, and in CC Culexus will always challenge. Sounds to me your pretty much sacrificing a 300-400pt unit in a bad attempt to kill a 140 pt model.
1) You don't need to attach the Sorcerer, Astral Grimoire can be used on any infantry unit within 12".
2) Sequence of events :
--> 12" move
--> cast Force
--> explode the Rhino
--> Culexus cancels Force
--> shoot
--> charge.
3) Killing the Culexus is less important than taking away player agency. If he's not within 8-12", he's not really a factor. Three S5 shots within 18" isn't bringing much to the table, even at BS8.
4) If you have Summoning, you can just launch a conjured unit at him with the Grimoire.
Yoyoyo wrote: 1) You don't need to attach the Sorcerer, Astral Grimoire can be used on any infantry unit within 12".
2) Sequence of events :
--> 12" move
--> cast Force
--> explode the Rhino
--> Culexus cancels Force
--> shoot
--> charge.
3) Killing the Culexus is less important than taking away player agency. If he's not within 8-12", he's not really a factor. Three S5 shots within 18" isn't bringing much to the table, even at BS8.
4) If you have Summoning, you can just launch a conjured unit at him with the Grimoire.
His psychic abomination is measured from the hull of the vehicle, you generate WC on 6s... you gonna throw 6 dices at force?
Q: Does the Culexus Assassin's Psychic Abomination special rule work whilst it is inside a Transport?
A: No.
Thats good to know. Ok given the perfect scenario that the rubrics gets the first jump on Culexus, they'll get re-roll hits and saves of 1 for a turn. But how much more can they do with re-rolling hits of 1s when they still need 6s to shoot and 5s in CC? Combining shooting and CC with re-roll 1s, I think I estimate 1.2 or 1.3W total on the assassin. Then on the SM players turn, he charges in with Kahn and a bunch of marines.
Dealing with culexis assassins is a fairly simple matter with allied daemons.
Even a small unit of screamers turbo boosting over him will kill him easily once he is in the open.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerero wrote:Hellfyre Missle Racks are S 8 and unless my memory fails me culexus is T 4 without Eternal Warrior, prescience on a squad and shooting at him should down him in 3 or 4 turns half that for 2 squads, or if your really feeling froggy having 2 squads of SOT with Heavy Warp Flamers hit him at the same time should do the trick. Flamers seem to be the best option since they are fairly cheap and can still shoot at him because considered BS 1 is not snap shots.
Prescienced hellfyres deal ~0.25 wounds a turn (assuming no cover save better than a 4+), The bolters do a relatively inconsequential ~0.3 wounds a turn since you're aiming to double him out. A heavy flamer does ~0.44 wounds a turn (including warpflame), and in combination with the bolters yields 0.63 wounds a turn for a roughly 4 turn requirement to kill him - effectively the entire game. That also discounts the FNP you'll almost certainyl give him if you're attacking with a heavy flamer. Ironically, this might be the one chance a warpflamer rubricae squad has to shine. A squad of 9 warpflamers will do 3 wounds (including warpflame wounds) in a single round. Not what I'd call points efficient at 363 points for 10 dudes, 9 flamers and a rhino, but they do get the job done.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?
3, with 30 points left for the Gimoure.
Yoyoyo wrote:
Drasius wrote: I've been wracking my brain for a couple of days but I don't see any easy way that you can do much about it outside of throwing a sargent under the challenge bus and then doubling him [the culexus] out with a seer's bane wielder.
Not going to work, remember the Culexus applies a -3 LD debuff to psykers within 12".
Damn, I thought I had it then. Completely forgot about that, thank you.
Yoyoyo wrote:3) Killing the Culexus is less important than taking away player agency. If he's not within 8-12", he's not really a factor. Three S5 shots within 18" isn't bringing much to the table, even at BS8.
The issue is that he can start 12-18" away due to infiltrating. Even if he can't charge, he can still cause a bunch of issues, not just gaining bonus dice to his shooting and being instant death against your psychers but also cancelling blessings that you might have been relying on.
Yoyoyo wrote:4) If you have Summoning, you can just launch a conjured unit at him with the Grimoire.
Chaos Legionnaire wrote:Dealing with culexis assassins is a fairly simple matter with allied daemons.
Even a small unit of screamers turbo boosting over him will kill him easily once he is in the open.
I suspect this might be the cheaper answer - rolling on maelific and looking for incursion. Most lists with daemons in it will almost assuredly have a unit of screamers in it anyway, but for lists like the full cabal, summoning might be the only answer short of a hoarde of flamer rubricae.
Changing subject. I really start considering adding a cult of destruction in my lists. This should be 1 Warpsmith and 3+1+1 obliterators. I believe it will be great to solve some of our anti-AV problems and it would add more to the super-durable infantry guys playstyle which I am fond of. Now I have two options on how to run them.
1. Thousand Sons. I would have to put a MoT on everybody (total cost of 515 pts). This would give me 4++ saves and Blessing of Tzeentch on everybody (mainly my big unit of 3+ the warpsmith). I could also give the Grimoire to the warpsmith and have a very fast multi-purpose unit.
2. Iron Warriors. I do not have to add marks. So I could get it for cheap(er) - 460 pts for the formation. I would only have 5++ and no Blessing, but I would get Tank Hunters which further improves their default role. Also it would be somehow more difficult to grimoire them. Finally, due to my OCD's, I would have to re-paint them to IW.
Sooooo, which route would be best in your opinion?
Being able to bring the astral grimoire into a non Ts aggressive army is pretty useful. So I've converted up a TS warpsmith. Still thinking about TS oblits.
IW oblits are good in a CAD.. tank hunter is great.. I think death guard won out for oblits , T5 and fnp and fearless.
BoomWolf wrote: The cult of destruction may be a great add to our forces, but it puts further strain on our already very limited point reserves.
Honestly, it almost seems like if you can't max out a formation, it's hardly worth fielding one. and at that point-why bother TS?
I just feel like if you are not going all-in on the psykers, you'll be better off playing another legion.
We can have TSCAD with cultists just to bring Magnus in, then add one of the sorcerer formations or a daemon WC battery and still probably have points left for the Cult of Destruction.
The point with the Cult is that it supplements our list so well. It just fills all the holes in our roster, gives us solutions to tank and horde killing, and also gives us a nice amount of powerfists so we do not have to sacrifice psychic power rolls on heretech or pyromancy. Then we don't really need to go all out on psykers. If we have decent answers to AV and hordes, maybe we can get along with having 15-18 WC phases rather than 25+. Don't get me wrong, I really really like the psychic phase overload, but I have seen my opponents getting kinda bored just sitting around and watching me do my thing. They have started referring to my army as the "Thousand Warp Charge Sons". I figured I would make the game more enjoyable for them if I cut some corners where WC are concerned.
Sample list 1850 pts
TSCAD
Sorcerer, ML 3, Astral Grimoire, MoT, spell familiar
10 x Cultists, MoT 10 x Cultists, MoT
Magnus the Red
Chaos Daemons CAD
Herald of Tzeentch, ML3, Disc, The other Grimoire
11 x blue horrors
11 x blue horrors
5-6 screamers of Tzeentch
Heralds Anarchic
3 x ML1 Heralds of Tzeentch
IW Cult of Destruction
Warpsmith
3 x Obliterators
1 x Obliterator
1 x Obliterator
Don't have a calculator or the books with me but this should amount more or less to 1850 pts. Worst case scenario we can cripple our casters a bit. Then we have a decent bodycount, 21 WC, Magnus, a lot of anti-AV, fast units, astral grimoire, 2++ Magnus or screamerstar and our Cult of destruction. Sure it does not look like TS much, but it is a nice all around list with lots of answers.
I'm pretty new to 7E (and didn't play 6E before it), so I apologize for this newb question, but here goes. If I have an Exalted Sorcerer (for example), can he "double up" and count towards the composition requirements of both the Sekhmet Conclave and the War Coven, or does he have to count only towards one or the other?
Captyn_Bob wrote: Being able to bring the astral grimoire into a non Ts aggressive army is pretty useful. So I've converted up a TS warpsmith. Still thinking about TS oblits.
IW oblits are good in a CAD.. tank hunter is great.. I think death guard won out for oblits , T5 and fnp and fearless.
The main advantage for the Iron Warriors Obliterators is that they have little tax if you just wanted to add them. All you need is the HQ and then you can grab a bunch of OS Lascannons or Plasma Cannons.
They're definitely not as tough but they would help with keeping home objectives and killing tanks, which is the primary weakness for the army. The loss of durability is possibly worth it.
Brian888 wrote: I'm pretty new to 7E (and didn't play 6E before it), so I apologize for this newb question, but here goes. If I have an Exalted Sorcerer (for example), can he "double up" and count towards the composition requirements of both the Sekhmet Conclave and the War Coven, or does he have to count only towards one or the other?
Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?
Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah
The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.
You are far too extreme in your language in my opinion. You keep saying our units are garbage and we can't compete but the only justification I'm hearing from you on that is against white scars battle company with culexus. The last 100+ player tournament I went to I fought two wolf stars, 1 scat bike spam, an infernal tetrad, and a daemon summoning list. Guess how many had a culexus assassin? Not a single one is the correct answer. There definitely weren't any at the top tables and I didn't spot a single army like that while walking around the event. I did see a couple battle companies, but not with assassins and not anywhere near the top of the rankings.
I haven't fought many of the culexus in the past and I expect to see even less because the faq has made them so much harder to field and keep alive. Sisters of silence may start cropping up, but I think they'll be a lot easier for us to handle with our plethora of ap3 weapons.
The armies I'm more concerned with at tournaments are Tau riptides with stormsurges, wolfstars, scat bike spam, daemons, and flyrant spam. Those are the armies I see win the most events and those are the ones I think we should be most concerned with to be competitive. That's why I tested against a couple of those armies and it's why I don't think we're in as bad of a position as you're proclaiming. We actually have some good tools to deal with a lot of these forces and just need to learn ways to deploy against them and how to run our psykers.
If you want to be a debbie downer, go for it, but it's not contributing anything.
Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?
Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah
The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.
You are far too extreme in your language in my opinion. You keep saying our units are garbage and we can't compete but the only justification I'm hearing from you on that is against white scars battle company with culexus. The last 100+ player tournament I went to I fought two wolf stars, 1 scat bike spam, an infernal tetrad, and a daemon summoning list. Guess how many had a culexus assassin? Not a single one is the correct answer. There definitely weren't any at the top tables and I didn't spot a single army like that while walking around the event. I did see a couple battle companies, but not with assassins and not anywhere near the top of the rankings.
I haven't fought many of the culexus in the past and I expect to see even less because the faq has made them so much harder to field and keep alive. Sisters of silence may start cropping up, but I think they'll be a lot easier for us to handle with our plethora of ap3 weapons.
The armies I'm more concerned with at tournaments are Tau riptides with stormsurges, wolfstars, scat bike spam, daemons, and flyrant spam. Those are the armies I see win the most events and those are the ones I think we should be most concerned with to be competitive. That's why I tested against a couple of those armies and it's why I don't think we're in as bad of a position as you're proclaiming. We actually have some good tools to deal with a lot of these forces and just need to learn ways to deploy against them and how to run our psykers.
If you want to be a debbie downer, go for it, but it's not contributing anything.
The gladius is just an example that will give War Cabal issues. I'm still waiting for TS players who advocates War Cabal to provide solutions that can win effectively at 1850, so people like you who loves them Rubrics and Occults aren't providing any real lasting solutions and tactics either.
While I'm here advocating for mixing legions and Daemon allies to optimize TS to win at ITC/Nova. And I'm glad people are finally thinking that. Iron Warriors for example is a great way to supplement TS's weakness of dealing with AV.
Which goes back to my earlier question, how many missiles and etc can one fit into a 1850 max war cabal list?
Like 8 or 9 pages back I got same defeated response: TS is not a top competitive army, we will lose to the best blah blah blah blah
The point I'm trying to make is CSM is no longer a tier4 crappy faction, with Traitors Hate you can actually make a mid tier2 list if you mix legions and bring the most optimize. War Cabal is garbage at 1850, rubrics and occults are a waste. I posted a list earlier several pages back that combines TS with cyclopia cabal and IW. I guarantee you that list will put up a decent fight against gladius, still a uphill fight none the less.
4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.
Brian888 wrote: Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?
Brian888 wrote: Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?
Just rewards and artifacts. Bit of a let down that they don't get the full candy jar.
And, hell, since I was slow on the draw for my answer, may as well ask a question.
Would solo heralds or sorcerers on disks be good for much of anything? Trying to fudge around with a 9-model list for fun. Probably will just end up with using a bunch of ml1 heralds as cheap warp charge and model count though.
Brian888 wrote: Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?
Just rewards and artifacts. Bit of a let down that they don't get the full candy jar.
Probably for the best, though. It'd be stupid easy for an Exalted Sorcerer to get a 2++ otherwise (rerolling 1s if you can manage to field max units in a Grand Coven formation).
Brian888 wrote: Am I correct in my reading of the Exalted Sorcerer data sheet that it cannot take special issue wargear from the CSM codex (such as melta bombs)?
Just rewards and artifacts. Bit of a let down that they don't get the full candy jar.
And, hell, since I was slow on the draw for my answer, may as well ask a question.
Would solo heralds or sorcerers on disks be good for much of anything? Trying to fudge around with a 9-model list for fun. Probably will just end up with using a bunch of ml1 heralds as cheap warp charge and model count though.
That probably entirely depends on what kind of powers you manage to roll on the heralds or sorcerers. For example, a highly-mobile sorcerer with Treason of Tzeentch might draw an inordinate amount of attention from your opponent because of the shenanigans you can get up to with that power, and it seems that the move/Psychic Shriek/turbojet away course of action may be effective.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: 4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.
Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.
Thousand Sons is definitely a min-max player's nightmare.
- Mixed weapon loadouts or mandatory squads of 10
- Mandatory MLs and Champ tax on your Rubrics
- No Spell Familiar on your SOT Sorcs
- No choice of CC weapons on almost everything
- Mandatory Tzeentch power on every Psyker
- Major issues in attaining your best Formation bonus
Building a TS list probably verges on torture if you're the type of player who needs to juice a list to the fullest extent possible.
Yoyoyo wrote: Thousand Sons is definitely a min-max player's nightmare.
- Mixed weapon loadouts or mandatory squads of 10
- Mandatory MLs and Champ tax on your Rubrics
- No Spell Familiar on your SOT Sorcs
- No choice of CC weapons on almost everything
- Mandatory Tzeentch power on every Psyker
- Major issues in attaining your best Formation bonus
Building a TS list probably verges on torture if you're the type of player who needs to juice a list to the fullest extent possible.
On the other hand, if there was a contest "Build your list in under a minute" we would be champions of the world!
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: 4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.
Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.
5 more is only 200 points that puts you at 1700 then 20 per rack 1780 which leaves you 70 points for other upgrades.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Being able to bring the astral grimoire into a non Ts aggressive army is pretty useful. So I've converted up a TS warpsmith. Still thinking about TS oblits.
IW oblits are good in a CAD.. tank hunter is great.. I think death guard won out for oblits , T5 and fnp and fearless.
The main advantage for the Iron Warriors Obliterators is that they have little tax if you just wanted to add them. All you need is the HQ and then you can grab a bunch of OS Lascannons or Plasma Cannons.
They're definitely not as tough but they would help with keeping home objectives and killing tanks, which is the primary weakness for the army. The loss of durability is possibly worth it.
IWCAD: -DP of Tz with Fleshmetal Exoskeleton (2+ rerollable!) -1x Oblit -1x Oblit
That clocks in as 370 pts. (or replace the HQ with barebones Sorc comes in as 200 pts).
Not really all that bad of an idea...
Here's my first stab with Maggie, Oblits and Lorestealer:
Spoiler:
+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition v2016) +++
········Obliterators [Obliterator, Veterans of the Long War] ········Obliterators [Obliterator, Veterans of the Long War] ········Obliterators [Obliterator, Veterans of the Long War] ········Obliterators [Obliterator, Veterans of the Long War]
++ CD Pandemoniad of Tzeentch (Chaos Daemons: Codex v2003) ++
+ Core +
········Lorestealer Host ············Blue Horrors [11x Blue Horrors] ············Blue Horrors [11x Blue Horrors] ············Blue Horrors [11x Blue Horrors] ················The Blue Scribes
+ Auxiliary +
········Heralds Anarchic ········Rules: Warp Conduits ············Herald of Tzeentch [Disc of Tzeentch, Paradox, Psyker Level 3] ············Herald of Tzeentch [Disc of Tzeentch, Psyker Level 1] ············Herald of Tzeentch [Disc of Tzeentch, Psyker Level 1]
++ Combined Arms Detachment (Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) ++
········Force Options (Supplement options here) [Thousand Sons] ········Rules: Blessing of Tzeentch, Blood Feud, Fear
+ HQ (90pts) +
········Sorcerer [Mark of Tzeentch, Power Armour, Spell familiar, Veterans of the Long War]
Yoyoyo wrote: Thousand Sons is definitely a min-max player's nightmare.
- Mixed weapon loadouts or mandatory squads of 10
- Mandatory MLs and Champ tax on your Rubrics
- No Spell Familiar on your SOT Sorcs
- No choice of CC weapons on almost everything
- Mandatory Tzeentch power on every Psyker
- Major issues in attaining your best Formation bonus
Building a TS list probably verges on torture if you're the type of player who needs to juice a list to the fullest extent possible.
Oh yeah. The shop I play at is like the Colosseum, people there are ruthless. Take Magnus for example I wont bring him because he is shut down WAY to easily Culexus becomes a machine gun around him and all you have to do is deny Siphon Magic and he becomes a giant paper weight. SOT are good in a maxxed Cabal but that's the only place, they just become super expensive terminators that die just as fast as regular terminators and have AP 3 bolters outside of that. IW Havocs with Plasma Rifles seem to be worth their weight in gold, since I prefer buffing my units over mind bullets, and putting prescience on them makes them amazing against anything that isn't AV 13. Right now I am eyeballing TK because TK dome gives half your TS army a 3++ save vs shooting attacks, which would be very useful.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: 4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.
Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.
5 more is only 200 points that puts you at 1700 then 20 per rack 1780 which leaves you 70 points for other upgrades.
I though you meant in a useful cabal (1760), not a barebones (1500) unplayable one. Yes, if you took out all the useful upgrades and replaced them with 5 more terminators, you could indeed have 4 helfyre racks.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: 4 racks but that is bare minimum everything except 1 squad of SOT with 2 missle racks in it. I still think the Warp Flamer would be better due to the auto hitting.
Can't get 2 racks in until 10 Scarabs IIRC and there's definately not enough points for 5 more Scarabs.
5 more is only 200 points that puts you at 1700 then 20 per rack 1780 which leaves you 70 points for other upgrades.
I though you meant in a useful cabal (1760), not a barebones (1500) unplayable one. Yes, if you took out all the useful upgrades and replaced them with 5 more terminators, you could indeed have 4 helfyre racks.
Yeah its doable but not viable. I would say Heavy Warp Flamer is better since its a guaranteed hit.
It's so not worth crippling your list to include a mostly ineffective counter to a Culexus. Either summon something useful or let him chew on a Rubric squad for a few turns.
Any thoughts on CSM allies other than Iron Warriors?
Yoyoyo wrote: It's so not worth crippling your list to include a mostly ineffective counter to a Culexus. Either summon something useful or let him chew on a Rubric squad for a few turns.
Any thoughts on CSM allies other than Iron Warriors?
Alpha Legion Infiltrating Chosen with (insert preferd weapon here) and prescience plus it feels a bit more Tzeentchy.
Regarding Chosen, 6 man squads with 4 melta guns and a Flamer is something I'm testing with.
Sering as Thousand Sons already have anti infantry stuff, you might want to spring for the fifth melta gun.
Yoyoyo wrote: It's so not worth crippling your list to include a mostly ineffective counter to a Culexus. Either summon something useful or let him chew on a Rubric squad for a few turns.
Any thoughts on CSM allies other than Iron Warriors?
Alpha Legion Infiltrating Chosen with (insert preferd weapon here) and prescience plus it feels a bit more Tzeentchy.
Meh, ever-mutating dudes also got a tzeentchy feel to them in my books.
In any case, someone somewhere suggested WE, as combining the astral grimore with their insane speed means you really CAN get anywhere on the table T1 with your deathstar.
WB for some summoning psyker allies could work if you are into that.
DG if you need a bodyguard squad for someone (as they are as though as it gets)
NL can get you easy melta-raptors for some speed unit and some AT.
The gladius is just an example that will give War Cabal issues. I'm still waiting for TS players who advocates War Cabal to provide solutions that can win effectively at 1850, so people like you who loves them Rubrics and Occults aren't providing any real lasting solutions and tactics either.
While I'm here advocating for mixing legions and Daemon allies to optimize TS to win at ITC/Nova. And I'm glad people are finally thinking that. Iron Warriors for example is a great way to supplement TS's weakness of dealing with AV.
You mean waiting for people to provide solutions other than providing the strategies I used to beat both a tau and space wolf tournament list? I'll try to get a game in against a battle company as soon as I can, but it wasn't high on my priority list because I haven't been seeing them take home many tournament wins. What I expect I'll do is focus on beams and novas that hit multiple units and then using the shooting and assault phases to take on different units. The full war cabal list I posted on one of the earlier pages shows me running melta bombs in every unit so I don't anticipate problems with the armor values. One benefit of all our psykers is the ability to engage multiple units which is usually where people fall flat against battle companies because they can't keep up with killing enough units. I've never found their bite to be very substantial.
Apparently you only think in extremes. I see a wide range of values between thinking something is garbage and being in love with it. Just because I don't think it's garbage doesn't mean I think it's the best unit in the game. I just think the terminators are solid and usable in the current meta and don't see the point in whining about them.
People aren't "finally" talking about supplementing TS lists with other forces either. It has been discussed since the very first page. The only thing you've advocated over the last few pages is "the units are garbage" and exclaiming to others that "your math is wrong" (ironically while having flawed math yourself).
I'm spending my time working more on how to combat fast ranged armies like scatbike spam. I'm leaning towards focusing on geomancy to get some mobility, shooting out of LOS, and ignores cover. It's also an army I'd be more tempted to deepstrike the occult in on. Don't have to go for risky placements, just trying to make sure you get in range.
The gladius is just an example that will give War Cabal issues. I'm still waiting for TS players who advocates War Cabal to provide solutions that can win effectively at 1850, so people like you who loves them Rubrics and Occults aren't providing any real lasting solutions and tactics either.
While I'm here advocating for mixing legions and Daemon allies to optimize TS to win at ITC/Nova. And I'm glad people are finally thinking that. Iron Warriors for example is a great way to supplement TS's weakness of dealing with AV.
You mean waiting for people to provide solutions other than providing the strategies I used to beat both a tau and space wolf tournament list? I'll try to get a game in against a battle company as soon as I can, but it wasn't high on my priority list because I haven't been seeing them take home many tournament wins. What I expect I'll do is focus on beams and novas that hit multiple units and then using the shooting and assault phases to take on different units. The full war cabal list I posted on one of the earlier pages shows me running melta bombs in every unit so I don't anticipate problems with the armor values. One benefit of all our psykers is the ability to engage multiple units which is usually where people fall flat against battle companies because they can't keep up with killing enough units. I've never found their bite to be very substantial.
Apparently you only think in extremes. I see a wide range of values between thinking something is garbage and being in love with it. Just because I don't think it's garbage doesn't mean I think it's the best unit in the game. I just think the terminators are solid and usable in the current meta and don't see the point in whining about them.
People aren't "finally" talking about supplementing TS lists with other forces either. It has been discussed since the very first page. The only thing you've advocated over the last few pages is "the units are garbage" and exclaiming to others that "your math is wrong" (ironically while having flawed math yourself).
I'm spending my time working more on how to combat fast ranged armies like scatbike spam. I'm leaning towards focusing on geomancy to get some mobility, shooting out of LOS, and ignores cover. It's also an army I'd be more tempted to deepstrike the occult in on. Don't have to go for risky placements, just trying to make sure you get in range.
That's MTGs rock, paper, scissors theory. Or the Level 1, 2, and 3 theory. You dont have to beat what you're weak against, you just have to beat what will beat what you're weak against, or beat what will be the best army at the tournie.
You know the Purge Detachment from Siege of Vraks? It does not allow you to take any Marks other than Nurgle, but it doesn't gave any wordings about taking any "Daemons of" another Chaos God.
Take 2 Helbrutes and a Tzeentch Prince and voila, you now have a Thousand Sons detachment without a single Mark of Tzeentch, that can now take Magnus as a Lord of War.
You know the Purge Detachment from Siege of Vraks? It does not allow you to take any Marks other than Nurgle, but it doesn't gave any wordings about taking any "Daemons of" another Chaos God.
Take 2 Helbrutes and a Tzeentch Prince and voila, you now have a Thousand Sons detachment without a single Mark of Tzeentch, that can now take Magnus as a Lord of War.
I think I like that better! THANKS!
EDIT: Magnus still has mark of Tz... so, I'm not sure that he can added to the Purge Detachement.
EDIT 2: well gak, I don't have my book with me... is Magnus a "Demon of Tzeenth"? Or does he have the "Mark of Tzeenth". Essentially, you're saying that since the TzDP and Maggie don't have any "marks", they fullfill the requirement of the Purges' 'Only Nurgle marks are allowed' requirement?
What are your thoughts on Exalted Sorcerers versus regular Sorcerers? Exalteds give you 1 more wound, attack, initiative, and BS apiece, have access to Divination and Telekinesis (for more flexibility), use Inferno rounds automatically, are Fearless, and have that one-shot S9 Lance attack (although it's Heavy, which may leave the Exalted as a sitting duck after firing it unless he's on a Disc, which he should be). On the other hand, Sorcerers provide points-savings in an already point-strapped army (even if you buy them up to ML3), can take Force swords instead of being stuck with Force staves, have access to the Sigil for a potential 2++ on any turn they manifest a Blessing, and can take melta-bombs to go tank-hunting.
I think that (in a list without Magnus or Ahriman) an Exalted beatstick as the Warlord with the Seer's Bane is important to have, but for the rest of the psykers it seems to me that regular MoT Sorcerers make the most sense points-wise.
The exalted are better if plan give the demon staff to make him a melee beast.
If you want do a death star of psikers, the exalted are better too. The extra shoot....well, with luck you can blow an expensive vehicle.
About the purge as a TS army......I dont understand. I mean, the TS obeys you to put Tzeentch mark to everything...and The Purge units must have nurgle.... Then how can say that the purge is a ts army?
About the purge as a TS army......I dont understand. I mean, the TS obeys you to put Tzeentch mark to everything...and The Purge units must have nurgle.... Then how can say that the purge is a ts army?
TS doesn't require you to put MoT on everything. It requires you to put MoT on everything that can take it, and disallows you from taking anything with any other Mark of Chaos.
I mean, I don't think there's any real reason to make a TS detachment without MoT other than for the joy of watching the world burn, but it absolutely works.
BoomWolf wrote: Meh, ever-mutating dudes also got a tzeentchy feel to them in my books.
Yeah, but I don't like that stuff. More into the search for knowledge, overly convoluted plans part.
BoomWolf wrote: In any case, someone somewhere suggested WE, as combining the astral grimore with their insane speed means you really CAN get anywhere on the table T1 with your deathstar.
Kinda fluff killing, but would probably work well.
BoomWolf wrote: WB for some summoning psyker allies could work if you are into that.
Something I have actually looked into and could be quite terrifying with Ahriman's Exiles summon on a 3+ with re-rolls, on top of WB Sorcs. Would make for a lot of Daemons on the table very quickly.
BoomWolf wrote: DG if you need a bodyguard squad for someone (as they are as tough as it gets)
Yeah but the problem is Nurgle and Tzeentch don't get along.
BoomWolf wrote: NL can get you easy melta-raptors for some speed unit and some AT.
Haven't considered this, will have to look into it.
EC might be good as well with their ability to put lots of fire on a target for fairly cheap. Plus Sorcs on Steeds give Outflank to TS and you have outflanking Rubric Marines which helps mitigate their move speed some.
I got a box of Tzaangor's when the releases came out, but now have leaned towards war cabal and bought more terminators. Should I just sell the Tzaangor's box to buy some demons in case I summon or ally? Looks like Tzaangor's are pretty bad even in a CAD for TS
Tzaangors are great in their formation, it just requires a minimum of 30 models before it's legal, and even more is preferable.
In a CAD, a squad or two of 10's work well as objective holders or as extra "wounds" for a character. They're essentially good Cultists at that unitsize, being +1 WS and T for 1 ppm over a MoT Cultist.
You know the Purge Detachment from Siege of Vraks? It does not allow you to take any Marks other than Nurgle, but it doesn't gave any wordings about taking any "Daemons of" another Chaos God.
Take 2 Helbrutes and a Tzeentch Prince and voila, you now have a Thousand Sons detachment without a single Mark of Tzeentch, that can now take Magnus as a Lord of War.
System breaking for fun and profit XD
Though, hard to tell the advantage here, given that you usually don't practically WANT helbrutes to begin with, the mere concept of duing this is hilarius.
The issue is, hte Purge detachment, AFAIK, has no LoW slot of Magnus to fit in.
However, as there is no rule that states Magnus can only be taken in a 1ksons detachment (or exalted sorcerers, or tazzangors for that matter), he fits into a plain CSMCAD.
Yeah, that is the point, look any chaos army can take Magnus since is a "generic" LoW. As well you can take an exalted sorcerer as a HQ if you are allowed to take T mark
Purge does have a LOW , so.. this rules abuse does work :-p
Can do an all tzeentch daemon purge with a dp, two spined beasts and Magnus.
I wouldn't call it good tho...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then you have free reign to take 4 heavy support choices. include good stuff like rapiers , Which can't take marks. And blood slaughterers and plague drones... And when will the fluff abomination end...
You know the Purge Detachment from Siege of Vraks? It does not allow you to take any Marks other than Nurgle, but it doesn't gave any wordings about taking any "Daemons of" another Chaos God.
Take 2 Helbrutes and a Tzeentch Prince and voila, you now have a Thousand Sons detachment without a single Mark of Tzeentch, that can now take Magnus as a Lord of War.
System breaking for fun and profit XD
Though, hard to tell the advantage here, given that you usually don't practically WANT helbrutes to begin with, the mere concept of duing this is hilarius.
The issue is, hte Purge detachment, AFAIK, has no LoW slot of Magnus to fit in.
However, as there is no rule that states Magnus can only be taken in a 1ksons detachment (or exalted sorcerers, or tazzangors for that matter), he fits into a plain CSMCAD.
I would rather have Helbrutes over Tzaangors as my Magnus tax.
I would rather have Helbrutes over Tzaangors as my Magnus tax.
True, but you have to take a Daemon Prince as your HQ as well. OK, but not what I'd want.
True, but if you're running Daemons as your secondary, chances are you're going to have access to Cursed Earth and a Grimoire...that is assuming the Prince doesn't luck out on Ectomancy of course.
I'm still not sure if I like 2x Cultists/Tzaangors, 3x SOTs, or 3x DP/Exalted Sorc as a Magnus tax the best. I'm leaning heavy towards three Daemon Princes just because I wanted to do an Infernal Tetrad circus anyways, so I pretty much have the models, but there's no real clear 'This is awesome' choice. Heck, I'd be happy with a 'This is actually pretty decent' choice. .
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm spending my time working more on how to combat fast ranged armies like scatbike spam. I'm leaning towards focusing on geomancy to get some mobility, shooting out of LOS, and ignores cover. It's also an army I'd be more tempted to deepstrike the occult in on. Don't have to go for risky placements, just trying to make sure you get in range.
I think the Occult would do great here. Jetbikes are so vulnerable to Shriek, Doombolt, AP3 shooting, and backfield Morale failures.
There's two Warlord traits that could be useful versus Eldar, either zero-scatter DS or forcing difficult terrain within 12" (the exact range of Warp Spider guns).
Regarding Geomancy, the 18" bubble of "no run moves" will make Warp Spiders useless -- they can't battle focus to get out of melee range, right? So Jump Termies should clean them up in CC without issue, while S6 mauls one-shot the Exarch. Incidentally, Monofilament only wounds Exalted Sorcerers on 5's, which is cool (and easy to forget).
Incidentally, if you're dealing with Flyrants, under Treason they are just spectacular at gunning each other out of the skies. Baleful Devolution is also pretty solid if you've got a FMC to cast off. There's a recent batrep on youtube with Magnus killing 2x Flyrants in one phase with those two powers alone.
I've been lurking this thread and it's been brilliant to hear people's ideas and tactics on the new Thousand Sons. I'm going to a tournament (1500 points) soon and want to take my new Thousand Sons. Last time I went to this kind of a nosebleed tournament I took a Cabalstar with KDK Fleshhounds and did okay, I found the deathstar frustrating to play though and when I lost games I always lost on objectives, I also hated that the whole list revolved around Invisability. Obviously at 1500 points I'm struggling with Thousand Sons but I quite fancy the War Cabal. Also, I do not aim to take winning seriously, a solid middle or top of the weaker lists would do me
Last time I played a tournament I came up against 3 x Knights plus summoning Wyrdvanes twice. I imagine I will again, so Ahriman is an auto include. The ability to triple fire Scrapcode or Flayerstorm I think will be crucial against mech. Against Tau, Eldar, etc Shriek is amazing, and Doombolt & Warpshock have their place, so Ahriman is in. Disc for mobility & T5 is mandatory IMO.
Next pick is an Exalted Sorcerer. L3, Disc, Spell Familiar, Seers Bane. I want this guy as a beatstick. 6+D6 attacks, fast and pretty tough, I will need this guy to run down Riptides & MCs. Rolling on Biomancy or Ectomancy for either a combat buff or a defensive buff.
Next up is two L3 Sorcerers. I'd make these Exalted but I don't have the points. Disc for when they need to run alone or as a group of discs, I'll probably put these in the Scarab Occult units (depends on the enemy/mission). These guys are my swiss army knives, if I need more Shrieks they can roll on Telepathy, if I need more rolls on Tzeentch, Geomancy, or Ectomancy they're there for that too.
Finally, 1 unit of Rubrics. Compulsory - meh, added melta bombs just incase. 2 units of Scarab Occults. I have no points left for missiles so these will just have to do as ablative wounds (2+/3++ AP3 ablative wounds) for the Sorcerers. I've read a million posts about these guys, some saying they're rubbish, others saying they're good->effective. I hope they will do well, maximising their AP3 shooting and making life hard for people around them seems clutch (Geomortis maybe? 3. Torturer of Worlds or 4. Earthly Anathema seem perfect for Scarabs)
Anyway, here is what I can cram in at 1500 points.
+War Cabal+
Ahriman [Disc]
Ex Sorcerer [L3, MoT, Disc, Spell Familiar, Melta bombs, Seers Bane]
Sorcerer [L3, MoT, Disc]
Sorcerer [L3, MoT, Disc]
Rubics x 5 [Melta bombs]
Scarab Occult x 5
Scarab Occult x 5
1500
I could drop a Sorcerer to put those points into more kitted out Scarabs but I'm not sure.
The only other type of list that appeals to me is Blue Horrors + Heralds allies to Ahrimans Exiles or a Tzeentch CAD.
Any thoughts, tips or ideas would be most welcome!
EDIT: Also, GSC - I played these the other day with my Space Marines & had a rough time. I have no idea how I'm going to beat these guys, what can I do to stop him getting lucky & charging my disc Sorcerers or Ahriman with Aberrants or Purestrains. My gut says to castle up and form the Sorceres+Ahriman into a deathstar to buff each other to a level where they might survive being charged by these sorts of units but I'm not confident, not confident at all.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm spending my time working more on how to combat fast ranged armies like scatbike spam. I'm leaning towards focusing on geomancy to get some mobility, shooting out of LOS, and ignores cover. It's also an army I'd be more tempted to deepstrike the occult in on. Don't have to go for risky placements, just trying to make sure you get in range.
I think the Occult would do great here. Jetbikes are so vulnerable to Shriek, Doombolt, AP3 shooting, and backfield Morale failures.
There's two Warlord traits that could be useful versus Eldar, either zero-scatter DS or forcing difficult terrain within 12" (the exact range of Warp Spider guns).
Regarding Geomancy, the 18" bubble of "no run moves" will make Warp Spiders useless -- they can't battle focus to get out of melee range, right? So Jump Termies should clean them up in CC without issue, while S6 mauls one-shot the Exarch. Incidentally, Monofilament only wounds Exalted Sorcerers on 5's, which is cool (and easy to forget).
Incidentally, if you're dealing with Flyrants, under Treason they are just spectacular at gunning each other out of the skies. Baleful Devolution is also pretty solid if you've got a FMC to cast off. There's a recent batrep on youtube with Magnus killing 2x Flyrants in one phase with those two powers alone.
I'm only nervous about the getting in range part. I know when I play my dark eldar or eldar I tend to start more than 36" away and whittle opponents down. If they get close, I boost 48" away with the units being threatened. I'm eager to see how it will go though. I think I'd be in ok shape for dawn of war but am not as optimistic about hammer and anvil.
Someone else also questioned what to do with their tzaangors. I've decided to count them as cultists for my thousand sons army so that they have more flavor than the cultists for my other armies.
@lessthanjeff : Eldar Jetbikes also get shut down by Torturer of Worlds, no turboboosting. The power doesn't exactly leap off the page when you first see it, but it's a pretty nifty effect for WC1.
@Kuklops : Against GSC, the faster you crush their units on the board, the less you'll be getting charged out of Cult Ambush. Honestly, it seems to me like the game will probably be decided by who goes first. Subterranean Uprising is required to deploy on the board, so if you get a free turn, you can wipe those units and defang a T1 charge. If they charge before you can act, you'd better hope nothing gets by your five lonely Rubrics.
If you live past the first turn: snipe out the Icon ASAP, summon Daemonettes and Flamers to screen your Sorcerers, manage wounds lost to perils using Life Leech/Endurance or Ley Leach. You might want to grab some Pyro powers on Ahriman so you can triple-flame or triple-nova 20x Purestrains if needed. Force Sticks and Seer's Bane are perfect weapons to use on Aberrants, they're much less trouble for you than most armies. GSC units suffer terribly from explosions, so Doombolt is preferable to haywires (especially vs open-topped). Your Exalted Sorcerer and Ahriman strike at I5, so they can reduce incoming charge damage a bit. Either way prepare for attrition, you will be outnumbered by 5:1 or more. It's going to look like the Battle of Thermopylae.
Be aware there's a few videos online of GSC in action, those may help you get a grip on their rules and units more quickly.
The Exalted Sorcerer cannot take Meltabombs, so you'll need to move them to a regular Sorcerer. I'd also trade a Disc for 2x Spell Familiars.
It wouldn't. If you want a close combat guy, just take an exalted sorcerer with disc and Seer's Bane. If he gets warp speed, prescience, invisibility or similar buffs he gets pretty nasty.
I finally got a game in against a Dark Angels Battle Company with the full war cabal list I posted in one of the earlier pages. The gist of his list was 6 tactical squads in assault cannon razorbacks, 2 assault squads with flamers in drop pods, 2 grav dev squads in rhinos, 3 or 4 units of black knights, unit of scouts, librarian, chaplain, captain, a darkshroud, and a landspeeder. I may have missed some things.
My powers were not a great start as I had 4 Breath of Chaos and 2 Boon of Mutation from my 10 forced rolls on the tzeentch table. I also failed to get shrouding which I really wanted and invisibility which just would have been nice a few times. On heretech I also kept getting the vehicle buff powers and switching them to the primaris but I did get 1 doombolt, 3 snapcode curses, and a flayerstorm.
We played ITC mission 5. Opponent got the infiltrate warlord trait and won roll-off for first turn while I got night attacker for my trait.
He set up aggressively along the deployment edge. I set up in two clusters basically hugging cover as best I could since I knew I'd need the 3+ cover save until I could get spells going. Tried to set up out of range of as many razorbacks as I could but between his scouting knights, infiltrating grav devs, and drop pods there wasn't much I could do.
Turn 1 he came in full force with drop pods right in front of me to flame as much as he could followed by barrages of grav weapons and plasma talons. He did underestimate my durability and only removed 8 or 9 models (which to be fair was a 4th of my army) and only 1 warp charge. I hit back fairly hard by pulling off a sneaky multicharge on two black knight units thanks to the astral grimoire and one other semi long charge on the opposite flank into another black knight unit with his librarian. The rest of my army wasn't able to advance enough to address the grav devs yet but I was able to clear a razorback, a drop pod, and one of the assault squads with psychic powers and shooting. Assaulting wiped one of the black knights units with the librarian and wounded the other 2 units of knights before they hit and ran out.
Turn 2 he brought in another drop pod behind me and almost sniped out my warlord, then he finished off one full rubric unit, wounded another one, and removed a couple more terminators. I was finally getting in range of his parking lot of rhinos and razorbacks though and started cracking them open hastily and then psychic screaming and shooting the occupants. Flayerstorm proved very valuable as each casting was often killing a couple units on its own. I did more multicharges to hit drop pods and units every chance I got which let me compete with the obscene number advantages he had over me.
Turn 3 things started to go south for my opponent. He was getting wounds in here and there but my saves were too strong and he was losing a lot of shots with each passing turn. He kept getting a couple wounds into units but it was never quite enough to pick off the characters so my psychic dice stayed relatively stable meaning my damage had if anything increased as I was getting in range of more targets for powers and charges. In my turn, I was able to kill everything else off in my backfield and had advanced far enough up on one flank that I was in combat with his razorbacks.
Turn 4 opponent started to realize he was getting tabled. He poured all his shots into the wounded terminator units but he could never get more than a couple wounds through each turn which often meant I was able to jump ic's from one unit to another as needed. Flayerstorm and snapcode curse continued to be stars as did the force staves and melta bombs. Each unit that popped out was hardly more than a speed bump other than the full BS overwatch he was getting to do.
Turn 5 he conceded. I had 10 models left on the table I think and many of them had taken wounds but I kept spreading them around with positioning and look out sirs whenever I could. Those ten models may seem like nothing but when just about every one of them has psychic shriek, scrapcode curse, or flayerstorm they'll do the damage they need to.
Reflections: I was nervous at the start of the game because he did hit me hard the first turn despite my defensive positioning but he couldn't keep up the pressure with me wiping 4 or 5 units a turn. You really have to utilize every phase and aim for lots of 1 to 2 dice casting attempts to keep up. If you can't make charges too you'll fall behind. It went about as I expected though with beams and spells like flayerstorm letting me deal lots of damage to multiple units at the same time since they're so crowded against each other.
If I could do it again, I would have prioritized getting shrouding and flayerstorm more. Positioning is incredibly important for setting up how look out sir will work and for designing multicharges that allow the melta bombs and staves to hit vehicles while the swords hit the squishy marines. Hope that report is helpful for any of you guys deciding how to deal with a battle company.
I'm still impressed with the scarab occult terms as they're solid in all phases of the game myself.
Could you spesify how you managed to eliminate black knight with a scarab charge, meaning that an overwatch fire with twin link plasmas should do at least a wound or two, and BK hacking 3 slash per model with str5 & rend should also net some wounds. Did you roll good saves or was it purely the re-roll or basic armor 2 when not rended that kept your termies in game?
How were you playing the 'reroll failed saves of one' rule?
Did you lose the rule after your lost a unit (no longer being maxed out) or did you keep the rule all game long regardless?
There seems to be some contention about this, so I was curious how you played it.
I know I lost 1 terminator from charging the knights and there may have been a second from the other unit. They were snapshooting at least since I'd shot at all 3 units with ap3 bolters even though it wouldn't get through the rerolling jink. The scariest charge was the multicharge I put into two units but I'd knocked out 1 model from them with psychic powers. A squad of rubrics was supposed to have charged one of the units but they failed so the terms had to take it upon themselves to make up for it.
Their close combat scared me far less than their shooting and while he was getting 3 attacks per model there weren't any rerolls or anything on it meaning he was only averaging a dozen or so hits. His warlord's unit was enfeebled the first turn which also diminished their output a little. Basically we just found he couldn't get substantial damage through my terms because even when he did get rends I didn't fail many of the 3++ invuls rerolling 1's. When I hit back, I had hatred against him and the ap3 for the scarab occult and ap2 on my sorcs just cut through him. I think I only killed 3 in the multicharge combat which left 2 of his to run around and be annoying but they were reduced enough in output that I didn't have to worry about them again for a while.
Overall it was the rerolling saves that kept them in the game so long. They're fantastically durable in the full war cabal.
I absolutely did not use any warpflamers on the rubrics. I can't justify that cost. No upgrades on the terms either although I'd probably use the missiles if I had the spare points.
Edit: We didn't play that the reroll was lost after a unit died. I didn't hear about any contention on that matter. Seems to me that they're intending your army has it and it doesn't go away. Don't the vindicators and predators clarify in the wording that you lose their bonuses when models are lost while ours makes no mention of that?
lessthanjeff wrote: I finally got a game in against a Dark Angels Battle Company with the full war cabal list I posted in one of the earlier pages.
...
I'm still impressed with the scarab occult terms as they're solid in all phases of the game myself.
Exalted. Nice report, good insights, completely agree with you on scrapcode and flayerstorm being essential and gamechanging. Nice work to keep all your characters alive, especially against a canny opponent and doubly so when they need to use beams since it often means being up front or slightly odd unit positioning. Well done on a well deserved win.
lessthanjeff wrote: I finally got a game in against a Dark Angels Battle Company with the full war cabal list I posted in one of the earlier pages. The gist of his list was 6 tactical squads in assault cannon razorbacks, 2 assault squads with flamers in drop pods, 2 grav dev squads in rhinos, 3 or 4 units of black knights, unit of scouts, librarian, chaplain, captain, a darkshroud, and a landspeeder. I may have missed some things.
My powers were not a great start as I had 4 Breath of Chaos and 2 Boon of Mutation from my 10 forced rolls on the tzeentch table. I also failed to get shrouding which I really wanted and invisibility which just would have been nice a few times. On heretech I also kept getting the vehicle buff powers and switching them to the primaris but I did get 1 doombolt, 3 snapcode curses, and a flayerstorm.
We played ITC mission 5. Opponent got the infiltrate warlord trait and won roll-off for first turn while I got night attacker for my trait.
He set up aggressively along the deployment edge. I set up in two clusters basically hugging cover as best I could since I knew I'd need the 3+ cover save until I could get spells going. Tried to set up out of range of as many razorbacks as I could but between his scouting knights, infiltrating grav devs, and drop pods there wasn't much I could do.
Turn 1 he came in full force with drop pods right in front of me to flame as much as he could followed by barrages of grav weapons and plasma talons. He did underestimate my durability and only removed 8 or 9 models (which to be fair was a 4th of my army) and only 1 warp charge. I hit back fairly hard by pulling off a sneaky multicharge on two black knight units thanks to the astral grimoire and one other semi long charge on the opposite flank into another black knight unit with his librarian. The rest of my army wasn't able to advance enough to address the grav devs yet but I was able to clear a razorback, a drop pod, and one of the assault squads with psychic powers and shooting. Assaulting wiped one of the black knights units with the librarian and wounded the other 2 units of knights before they hit and ran out.
Turn 2 he brought in another drop pod behind me and almost sniped out my warlord, then he finished off one full rubric unit, wounded another one, and removed a couple more terminators. I was finally getting in range of his parking lot of rhinos and razorbacks though and started cracking them open hastily and then psychic screaming and shooting the occupants. Flayerstorm proved very valuable as each casting was often killing a couple units on its own. I did more multicharges to hit drop pods and units every chance I got which let me compete with the obscene number advantages he had over me.
Turn 3 things started to go south for my opponent. He was getting wounds in here and there but my saves were too strong and he was losing a lot of shots with each passing turn. He kept getting a couple wounds into units but it was never quite enough to pick off the characters so my psychic dice stayed relatively stable meaning my damage had if anything increased as I was getting in range of more targets for powers and charges. In my turn, I was able to kill everything else off in my backfield and had advanced far enough up on one flank that I was in combat with his razorbacks.
Turn 4 opponent started to realize he was getting tabled. He poured all his shots into the wounded terminator units but he could never get more than a couple wounds through each turn which often meant I was able to jump ic's from one unit to another as needed. Flayerstorm and snapcode curse continued to be stars as did the force staves and melta bombs. Each unit that popped out was hardly more than a speed bump other than the full BS overwatch he was getting to do.
Turn 5 he conceded. I had 10 models left on the table I think and many of them had taken wounds but I kept spreading them around with positioning and look out sirs whenever I could. Those ten models may seem like nothing but when just about every one of them has psychic shriek, scrapcode curse, or flayerstorm they'll do the damage they need to.
Reflections: I was nervous at the start of the game because he did hit me hard the first turn despite my defensive positioning but he couldn't keep up the pressure with me wiping 4 or 5 units a turn. You really have to utilize every phase and aim for lots of 1 to 2 dice casting attempts to keep up. If you can't make charges too you'll fall behind. It went about as I expected though with beams and spells like flayerstorm letting me deal lots of damage to multiple units at the same time since they're so crowded against each other.
If I could do it again, I would have prioritized getting shrouding and flayerstorm more. Positioning is incredibly important for setting up how look out sir will work and for designing multicharges that allow the melta bombs and staves to hit vehicles while the swords hit the squishy marines. Hope that report is helpful for any of you guys deciding how to deal with a battle company.
I'm still impressed with the scarab occult terms as they're solid in all phases of the game myself.
Great batrep! It's good to see 1k sons holding their own vs a tough opponent and even winning a game. How would you rate your 1k son squads? Btw, what's flayerstorm?
Thanks guys, it was fun to knock out. So far my full war cabal is undefeated and I've only been playing against tournament lists.
For beams, I usually try to keep sorcs just behind a couple models that are spaced enough to put the beam in-between. Making sure I was lining those things up during the movement phase instead of not thinking about them till it comes to casting time helped a lot.
Flayerstorm is a heretech spell that takes d3 hull points and for each hull point removed you can do d6str 4 rending hits to another unit within 12".
A 1000 point list would be rough for 1k sons imo. I can't even get something I like at 1500. 1850 is doable but 2000 is preferable.
I don't rate the rubric marines that highly, but I'm pretty happy with the scarab occult. They're very durable with the reroll 1's on saves and have a strong presence in the psychic, shooting, and assault phases while being very durable.
I rather agree with your assessment of the rerolls.
I only wish that literally everyone else in my local meta didn't see it the other way. Oh well...
Anyway, that was an excellent, concise batrep. Congaratulations on a hard fought victory.
It seems as though everything that we dread as 1000 sons players happened,
( Losing first turn, rolling lousy powers, lots and lots of bullets/plasma/grav) but you managed a decisive win.
Well done.
I was disappointed in my powers but I ended up doing alright depending on a lot of primaris powers too. The heretech primaris ended up better than I expected. It's not great, but throwing 1 di at it with spell familiar rerolls several times a turn often meant I got to steal 1 or 2 twin linked assault cannons each turn in prime positioning to hit rear armors or snipe out special weapons from units.
That sucks if your meta is playing the rerolls 1's that way. Maybe we can get a response from GW if that's coming up a lot.
I was not running an auxiliary in my list though. There isn't much I would have benefited from on it since I usually was 1 or 2 dice casting and had few perils as a result. Most of my psykers didn't have more than 1 or 2 spells I wanted them to cast either so I preferred saving the points on adding a predator or hellbrute or something.
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: It wouldn't. If you want a close combat guy, just take an exalted sorcerer with disc and Seer's Bane. If he gets warp speed, prescience, invisibility or similar buffs he gets pretty nasty.
I was considering allying in a Raptor Talon and giving a Chaos Lord comes with a jump pack and giving it Sigil, Mark, and Seer Banes, comes in at 140 some odd points. Much cheaper than an Exalted sorceror and I can charge out of deep strike.
BoomWolf wrote: There is little reason to have that formation as 1ksons though.
I mean, yea, we ARE 1ksons, but other legions just do this formation better.
Nothing in our legion abilities really helps chaos lords, raptors or warp talons at all. and the MoT is practically tax on most of them.
I "get" why he'd want to do it, even if it's a gimmicky jank. He's trying to use the Leadership penalty from the Raptor Talon to turn Seer's Bane into a de-facto Fleshbane weapon that can hit where you want it to.
Franarok wrote: The exalted are better if plan give the demon staff to make him a melee beast.
If you want do a death star of psikers, the exalted are better too. The extra shoot....well, with luck you can blow an expensive vehicle.
You're probably right, but the prospect of getting a 2++ with rerollable 1's on a sorcerer in exchange for 1 less WS, attack and initiative score is awfully tempting (especially since attacks and initiative can be boosted with Sinistrum anyway).
I won't lie. I like the idea of a chaos lord in my army too. I think it's just the appeal of a 3++ melee character with a daemon weapon. Putting him on a disc makes him fast, hard-hitting, and tough (although a 2+ armor option would be nice). I'd rate it higher than the space marine characters you often see in bike units but that may be the cool factor swaying my perception. The problem is it just doesn't fit into any of the formations. It's something I may play with in a CAD attached to some spawn for a lower point game (like the 1000 point list someone was asking about earlier).
BoomWolf wrote: There is little reason to have that formation as 1ksons though.
I mean, yea, we ARE 1ksons, but other legions just do this formation better.
Nothing in our legion abilities really helps chaos lords, raptors or warp talons at all. and the MoT is practically tax on most of them.
I "get" why he'd want to do it, even if it's a gimmicky jank. He's trying to use the Leadership penalty from the Raptor Talon to turn Seer's Bane into a de-facto Fleshbane weapon that can hit where you want it to.
Oh, didn't even consider that.
Nice trick, yea. and it gives access to much needed speedy meltaguns-but the cost is just abnormally high for a trick.
A CSM psyker with the MoT has to take at least one roll on the Tzeentch table. Does he also get the Tzeentch primaris for free, even if he takes the rest of his rolls on other tables?
A daemon of Tzeentch gets the Change primaris for free, and can roll its powers entirely on the Change table or on other available tables (or some combination thereof).
yeah you get the Tzeentch primaris for free. It's so bad tho.
The daemon primaris has been contentious. The draft FAQ states that if a Daemon Psyker generates all their powers from a single discipline, he gets the Psychic focus In addition to the chaos Psychic Focus (so two Psychic focuses)
This is quite good actually and something I consistently forget to do.
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: I rather agree with your assessment of the rerolls.
I only wish that literally everyone else in my local meta didn't see it the other way. Oh well...
Anyway, that was an excellent, concise batrep. Congaratulations on a hard fought victory.
It seems as though everything that we dread as 1000 sons players happened,
( Losing first turn, rolling lousy powers, lots and lots of bullets/plasma/grav) but you managed a decisive win.
Well done.
To come back to your issue with whether you lose the reroll 1's when a unit dies, I was building some sisters of silence and adeptus custodes and noticed their rule also made it more clear that the benefit would end as they lost units. Their formations say "whilst three units from this formation are on the battlefield..." while ours does not stipulate that. It was a restriction on the list-building stage and not on what is currently on the battlefield. Couldn't you otherwise say formations like an aspect host lose the +1 bs if a unit dies? I'd show your local players some of those examples again or make a thread in YMDC to get a consensus to show them.
Had quite the game with a Full Cabal against a slaaneshi Incursion today and Warp Lure put in some serious work against his block of fiends and heralds with cursed earth and grimoure. The ability to punch though a 2++ and just deal out wounds was great. Termies held up well against rends and I managed to get the jump on a pair of chariots with the Astral Grimoure who thought they had outmanuvered me. Invis let me get rid of the silly challenge shenanigan slaaneshi herald too. I took a bit of a gamble on rolling pyromancy of all things to try and get some anti hoard and it worked out OK with inferno of all things doing some OK work when required, but really, rolling twice on sinistrum after getting invis and iron arm early was pretty win. Enfeeble also contributed nicely too, letting the bolters and swords wound on 2's.
I was surprised by how well the termies held up, I was expecting a large amount of trouble, but overall, I think they did quite well. The rubricae on the other hand went down like a sack of potatoes exactly as expected, but I did use them as a screen so I guess I can't complain too hard about that.
Awesome, I haven't gone against a daemon army with mine yet. Sadly, I haven't been able to get much more use out of the rubrics myself either. Like you said, screening and leaving them back to hold objectives so the termies can do the work is the best I've been able to accomplish. Wish our primaris was better.
We do seem to do well against deathstar lists which I expect to be even more common with the new release of celestine. I expect she'll be added to many a star to tank wounds and give hit and run..
10 minutes before posting. I only posted because I had an update and nothing was coming up. I closed the program out again and reloaded it, and everything was there. Kill team game today, 250 points. This should prove quite challenging for Rubrics...
10 minutes before posting. I only posted because I had an update and nothing was coming up. I closed the program out again and reloaded it, and everything was there. Kill team game today, 250 points. This should prove quite challenging for Rubrics...
Yeah scribe is wonkey now... I'm sure it'll be fix soon.
You could go into the saved data files and delete them, then look for the 'backup' folder and copy/paste the files back into the data files directory.
10 minutes before posting. I only posted because I had an update and nothing was coming up. I closed the program out again and reloaded it, and everything was there. Kill team game today, 250 points. This should prove quite challenging for Rubrics...
Yea, I don't think rubrics can manage it.
Not like they properly manage anything else anyhow. :-/
10 minutes before posting. I only posted because I had an update and nothing was coming up. I closed the program out again and reloaded it, and everything was there. Kill team game today, 250 points. This should prove quite challenging for Rubrics...
Yea, I don't think rubrics can manage it.
Not like they properly manage anything else anyhow. :-/
They actually didnt do to bad. I mean there wasn't too much strategy to be had, mostly positioning, distances, and luck. But against a 16 model strong Dark Angels Tac squad (two squads) with Missile Launcher and Plasma Rifle, I drew a game out. Best part was when my Sorc (ML 1) managed to cast Treason of Tzeentch on the Plasma Rifle guy with the intent to shoot the ML marine, and rolled a 1 and 2 then proceeded to kill himself. Game 2 was against 15 Space Wolves (ohhhh fluffy!). Again I rolled Treason but psyker powers didn't do squat the entire game. Turns out the re-rolling against wolves all game in melee played a big roll. But I did end up winning that one due to the other player rolling the extra turn, allowing me to table him at last.
Posted this on a list topic in the other forum, but I suppose it's rather relevant here, as well:
I ran a Full Cabal with a breabones pred for aux over the weekend at 2000 points against Grey Knights. The GK Army was termie and Dreadknight heavy with a single Land Raider with a Grand Master inside and friends. My list bare Rubrics, SOT's with Hellfyres, Ahriman as HQ, a couple Sorc's in termie armor w/chainfists, and a sorc with the Astral Grimoire.
I rolled up a decent smattering of powers across my Tzeentch table rolls with some Breath of Chaos, Treasons, a single Doombolt, a single Baleful Evolution, and some Boons. Kind of meh for fighting Grey Knights, though I was excited about Doombolt (Who isn't?) and Baleful Devolution did some work. Ahriman got Breath of Chaos, a junk spell on Heretek, Scrapcode Curse (Yay!) and then swapped Mental Fortitude for Psychic Shriek. All SOT Sorcs grabbed Psychic Shrieks, and I can't remember the few other rolls I had on the other sorc (AG guy).
My opponent got first turn, through everything down on their deployment line, spaced rather evenly. I turtled up a little on one side in order to concentrate firepower and try to capitalize on their spread forces and relatively slow mobility. The durability of SOT and even Rubrics with the full formation bonus is crazy. A good 2/3rds of my opponents army was able to get shots on my units and I didn't lose a single model. Even if I had lost a couple, I would have felt ok. I shut down the entire GK Psychic Phase .... some decent Denies on Blessings with mass dice followed by Denies on Maledictions (Banish) and Witchfires (Cleansing Flame) left my opponent very upset ... they normally face-roll the Psychic phase, so this was nice. Since I had infiltrated a couple SOT units, a Dreadknight was in range to charge but failed, which was nice.
My turn came with a slight shuffling, mostly just setting up duplicate targets. depending on how my Psychic Phase went (I had very little faith here). Pyshic went decently; Ahriman stripped a couple hull points from the Land Raider, Shrieked the hell out of the dreadknight that was close, followed by several other Sorcs doing the same ... and causing no wounds! I literally got off 4 shrieks from different units and not a one rolled over 9 on 3d6. Yay RNG. Force activation was also rather lackluster and only 2/3 SOT's got it and one Rubric unit, most casting it off two dice. Shooting was ... well, crap. My opponent has nothing that wasn't 2+ so all the AP3 did nothing. Almost my entire army put shots on the Dreadknight that was close and put 2 wounds on him. I followed this up with a Rubric + SOT charge. The SOT unit had one of the Chainfist Sorcs in there, so I was hoping between him and the Force axe on the Aspiring Sorc, I'd get him finished off. Thankfully, that's exactly how it happened, no casualties.
The following turns mirrored this almost exactly; I'd largely neutralize what my opponent was trying to cast, followed by being almost immune to their shooting, followed by Grey Knights losing to T-Sons in CC ..... which felt really weird, to say the least. Killed a Dreadknight with Force, turned a couple dudes into Spawn, BBQ'd the LR on T2.
While I know GK's aren't top tier and even that list wasn't as brutal as it could be, I felt like I ran every aspect of the game. Shooting was a little lackluster, but then again, I knew it would be when I saw the wave of 2+ armor. I'm not sure if Ahriman was worth it ... he did a TON of work, but most of his power was in my opponent fearing what he COULD do and spending most of their dice to deny him, instead of my other Sorc's spells. If I had gone with a cheaper HQ, I could have had some most mastery levels as well (I had 17 Warp Charges per turn, which wasn't terrible, but I certainly could want more)
Most of the time I prefer a Thousand Sons CAD over the War Cabal...you dont have the Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators as a (pretty expensive) tax.
You get access to Spawns, take them as bodyguards for an ex
Sorc with Seers Bane or for Ahriman (both on disc). If you need more than 2 Psykers just use one of the formations like Ahriman's Exiles.
It's hard to say what's better - tzeench spawns or scarab occults. Probably occults run as a formation. Well, vs everything other than grav, obviously.
Scarabs in a full cabal are amazing, but outside that, I think I'd rather the spawn since you're not going to be short on psychers to buff them up with things like endurance or shrouding. A group of spawn standing in area terrain with shrouded and warp fate are a serious pain to remove and don't require much in the way of resources to manage while providing a fairly secure bunker for your casters. A single unit of Scarabs can be useful to get access to Div however which, IMHO, gels well with spawn since forewarning, miisfortune and prescience all work extremely well with spawn and it's hardly much of a loss if you roll precog (rr saves on a 2+/3++ is never bad) or perfect timing (fixes AP3 bolters quite well) either. Hell, even foreboding isn't a total loss on a Scarab Sarge.
Sooooo who's excited for the new Tzeentch stuff to add to their 1k Sons armies? The new greater daemon/kairos is gross as are the heralds on discs. And finally, we have blue and brimstone daemons.
I want to kitbash those tzangors on discs for my exalted sorcs. Maybe put a tzangor head on power armor and use the discs to have more than one exalted sorc on disc?
I want to buy a bunch of pinks/blues/brimstones just so I can troll my friends in a really big game.
Also, am I blind? I dont see anyone talking about any of these in the rumors threads. Or the new vid with Ahriman's quote and eldar symbol that warhammer tv put up.
At 2000 points,,
What would you suggest is the best loadout (war gear, psychic disciplines) for a full war cabal for those of us whose meta doesn't allow you to keep 'favored of Tzeentch once you lose a unit.
How do you suggest that we prevent the opponent from simply focusing down a unit of Rubricae especially if they get first turn?
Obviously, one could stick a Termi Sorcerer in front of each unit to tank, but that only goes so far and creates it own set of problems ( limited mobility, etc.)
This is certainly worth discussing particularly in the unlikely event that GW is paying attention and decides to clarify the rule, coming down in favor of this interpretation.
In such a meta, there is no point playing 1ksons. They actually claim that the formation is THAT bad that losing a single unit removes your bonus, despite the fact no other formation suffers from it (except a few that specifically says so)
At 2000 points,,
What would you suggest is the best loadout (war gear, psychic disciplines) for a full war cabal for those of us whose meta doesn't allow you to keep 'favored of Tzeentch once you lose a unit.
How do you suggest that we prevent the opponent from simply focusing down a unit of Rubricae especially if they get first turn?
Obviously, one could stick a Termi Sorcerer in front of each unit to tank, but that only goes so far and creates it own set of problems ( limited mobility, etc.)
This is certainly worth discussing particularly in the unlikely event that GW is paying attention and decides to clarify the rule, coming down in favor of this interpretation.
What say you Dakka?
It's pretty clear that the only requirement is to purchase this many units - not maintain.
At 2000 points,,
What would you suggest is the best loadout (war gear, psychic disciplines) for a full war cabal for those of us whose meta doesn't allow you to keep 'favored of Tzeentch once you lose a unit.
How do you suggest that we prevent the opponent from simply focusing down a unit of Rubricae especially if they get first turn?
Obviously, one could stick a Termi Sorcerer in front of each unit to tank, but that only goes so far and creates it own set of problems ( limited mobility, etc.)
This is certainly worth discussing particularly in the unlikely event that GW is paying attention and decides to clarify the rule, coming down in favor of this interpretation.
What say you Dakka?
It's pretty clear that the only requirement is to purchase this many units - not maintain.
It's pointless to argue the matter because everyone is going to have their opinion and until GW comes out with a FAQ, everyone will stick with their opinion.
At 2000 points,,
What would you suggest is the best loadout (war gear, psychic disciplines) for a full war cabal for those of us whose meta doesn't allow you to keep 'favored of Tzeentch once you lose a unit.
I would not even consider a full cabal under such restrictions. It's quite clearly not the correct ruling tho.
You get less tax and more freedom in a CAD. Perhaps with a coven of some kind.
It looks like I may have to stick with CAD then. It is a shame though. I absolutely love the aesthetic of the Scarbs and he Rubricae, and they are the reason that I play the army in the first place ( and have since 3rd edition.)
In a CAD, unfortunately, it's kinda difficult to make them perform against a tough opponent.
At 2000 points,,
What would you suggest is the best loadout (war gear, psychic disciplines) for a full war cabal for those of us whose meta doesn't allow you to keep 'favored of Tzeentch once you lose a unit.
How do you suggest that we prevent the opponent from simply focusing down a unit of Rubricae especially if they get first turn?
Obviously, one could stick a Termi Sorcerer in front of each unit to tank, but that only goes so far and creates it own set of problems ( limited mobility, etc.)
This is certainly worth discussing particularly in the unlikely event that GW is paying attention and decides to clarify the rule, coming down in favor of this interpretation.
What say you Dakka?
Not a while lot of point, but if I absolutely had to, I'd either do as you mentioned and put a terminator sorc in the front and have him palm off AP2 to the mooks and pray you don't roll like a chump or I'd jam the rubricae into reserves and hpoe I could dent his army or lock stuff in combat before they came on, probably rolling at least 1 of the Scarabs if not and Exalted Sorc on Div looking for Scriers to try and keep them in reserve until at least turn 3, if not turn 4. Unless you roll invis, you're going to lose rubricae unlesss they're out of LoS. a 3+, even rr1's just isn't that sturdy without more psychic support than you can afford to devote to them.
Beyond that, if you're in a meta that insane about it, I'd wager that they're also competative enough for thousand sons to be a non-viable force outside of a full cabal as well. At that point, it's time to break out scatbike/WK/spider eldar, all-grav-all-the-time gladius or a double stormsurge riptide wing tau list since they're being D-bags and offer them the choice of which army they would like to play.
BoomWolf wrote: In such a meta, there is no point playing 1ksons. They actually claim that the formation is THAT bad that losing a single unit removes your bonus, despite the fact no other formation suffers from it (except a few that specifically says so)
Non-sense. I understand everyone has a way of seeing things but if anyone, even a tourney organizer tried to pull this gak on me I would straight up leave.. Because that shows they colors of the people in question. It is clear to anyone with a shred of common sense that you would not loae favored of tzeentch when you lose a unit.
lessthanjeff wrote: Thanks guys, it was fun to knock out. So far my full war cabal is undefeated and I've only been playing against tournament lists.
For beams, I usually try to keep sorcs just behind a couple models that are spaced enough to put the beam in-between. Making sure I was lining those things up during the movement phase instead of not thinking about them till it comes to casting time helped a lot.
Flayerstorm is a heretech spell that takes d3 hull points and for each hull point removed you can do d6str 4 rending hits to another unit within 12".
A 1000 point list would be rough for 1k sons imo. I can't even get something I like at 1500. 1850 is doable but 2000 is preferable.
I don't rate the rubric marines that highly, but I'm pretty happy with the scarab occult. They're very durable with the reroll 1's on saves and have a strong presence in the psychic, shooting, and assault phases while being very durable.
That was awesome to read. way to bounce back after turn 1.
I am one Scarab unit away from being able to field a full war cabal.
If the reroll saves was ruled that you lost it when a unit died than I wouldn't use the full war cabal either but I'd still play the regular cabal with Magnus attached. That's actually what I'm taking to an event this weekend.
losing the favoured of tzeentch rule makes the full cabal not worth it. You hamper yourself massively by taking the army - using psychics to deal with anti vehicle and taking resource away from blessings, no ap2 outside of psychics and seers bane (if you can afford it), slow (except the 1 jump unit), less units for objective capping. Favoured of tzeentch giving the army extreme resilience is what makes it work.
I'd go CAD. Seers bane sorc+spawn deathstar, tzeentch lord or seer's bane sorc+astral grimoire sorc+scarab deathstar, demon allies, ahriman's exiles+stuff, magnus summoning
lessthanjeff wrote: If the reroll saves was ruled that you lost it when a unit died than I wouldn't use the full war cabal either but I'd still play the regular cabal with Magnus attached. That's actually what I'm taking to an event this weekend.
Make sure to fill us in on your list and how it performs!
I'm just now getting my thousand sons in and about to start building them. Magnus should be here tomorrow!
nintura wrote: I want to kitbash those tzangors on discs for my exalted sorcs. Maybe put a tzangor head on power armor and use the discs to have more than one exalted sorc on disc?
I want to buy a bunch of pinks/blues/brimstones just so I can troll my friends in a really big game.
Also, am I blind? I dont see anyone talking about any of these in the rumors threads. Or the new vid with Ahriman's quote and eldar symbol that warhammer tv put up.
I was also planning on the Tzaangor discs for my other Exalted Sorcerers. I got 3 kits for 9 Sorcerers. I kit bashed 3 lower torsos from Rubrics to not have 3 farting sorcerers. They turned out good.
I plan on using magnets on their feet, discs and bases so I can use them on foot or on Disc. The Tzangoors I can add to the war herd or I had thought of using their upper torsos as tank toppers since I read in the fluff they are intelligent and treated well by the sorcerers. The bowman can be kitted with extra weapons, auto pistols or banners.
I only ever plan on running more than 3-4 Exalted Sorc on discs on a formation of only Sorc just for fun.
I understand why GW gave us the farting sorcerers as they can count as either on foot or disc, but I just cannot get behind them (literally)
lessthanjeff wrote: If the reroll saves was ruled that you lost it when a unit died than I wouldn't use the full war cabal either but I'd still play the regular cabal with Magnus attached. That's actually what I'm taking to an event this weekend.
Looking forward to seeing how Magnus does in your hands!
lessthanjeff wrote: If the reroll saves was ruled that you lost it when a unit died than I wouldn't use the full war cabal either but I'd still play the regular cabal with Magnus attached. That's actually what I'm taking to an event this weekend.
If you don't go for maxed cabal, why not go for a normal Cad with Magnus as a LOW instead? You don't have to pay points for rubrics and can have objective secure cultists or tzaangors. And then you can add melta bikers for fast anti-tank and as a unit to join your disc sorcerers in.
I fought against a Thousand Sons army today, and all their powers gave them a lot of tactical flexibility.
The player choose a lot of heretech powers to fight against my armored company, from example.
So, eventually, I don't think the TS lack AT weapons.
However, they are very dependent of the psy, I wonder how they play against Grey Knights ?
I went for the War Cabal because I wanted Magnus and Ahriman to be able to cast as many spells as possible but I'll probably try the CAD at some point as well. Here are the results of the small event I played at today.
My list was Magnus, Ahriman on a disc, a level 3 exalted sorc on a disc with seer's bane, rubric squad, scarab occult squad with hellfyre missile launcher, predator with auto cannon and las cannons, and a heralds anarchic with 3 barebones heralds of tzeentch.
Game 1 (ITC emperor's will mission), my opponent had a death guard cad with a sicaran tank and a chaos knight and a small thousand sons cad with an exalted sorc and scarab occult terms. I got first turn and set up magnus in the middle of my deployment (dawn of war) with ahriman and the exalted sorc just a little bit off to either side. I rolled pretty heavily into heretech because he had so many rhinos and hull points overall. I got flayerstorm on both ahriman and the exalted sorc but my tzeentch powers were almost all breath of chaos and boon of mutation.
Turn 1: I couldn't quite reach the sicaran so ahriman had to sit back more but magnus and the exalted sorc were able to take down the chaos knight and I summoned a burning chariot to start clearing his home objective. I then got to boost both my sorcs back to safety to avoid retaliation. His turn he unloaded on my scarab occult pretty hard killing several of those and because my chariot scattered so close he was able to take it out with a variety of troops on his objective.
Turn 2: My powers failed me pretty badly this round. Summoned chariot got a mishap and rolled a 1. I failed several spells with magnus (even throwing 2 dice on 2+'s for warp charge 1) and he denied a couple spells himself since he had 6ish psyker levels. I managed to kill a rhino and a couple infantry models and that was about it. He deepstruck his scarab occult in behind me and got invisibility on them. He tried to fire a lot at magnus because there wasn't much else in range but caused no damage.
Turn 3: I failed again to kill the sicaran with several heretech spells targeting it. I did get another burning chariot in to clear objectives away more. Ahriman totally whiffed 3 attempts of breath of chaos on the invis scarab occult not getting a single wound. I had kill a unit for 2 maelstrom objectives and failed to kill anything. My surviving occult terms even failed to kill a rhino despite having the hellfyre missile rack and getting a charge with the staff. He was able to kill off my scarab occults in his turn but that was the only damage he caused.
Turn 4: My exalted sorc finally made a charge (after failing a 5" one) and killed his nurgle warlord. I got a second chariot and finally cleared his emperor's will objective combined with novas and beams from magnus. His terms continued their march up but could only contest me on an objective because the durability of the rubrics pulled through.
Game ended there because psychic phases were going so slow so I won 9-3. My successes seemed far more subject to the whims of the psychic phase this game. Going so hard into heretech made it hard to combat non vehicle units so I'll have to balance that out better next time. Magnus was great as a versatile tool that could adapt to whatever the opponent had. He'd take down a knight or large unit one turn then summon chariots to clear units out of cover and help grab objectives the next. He was inconsistent though since things like novas would go off and get strength 1 one turn and then 6 the next or strength d hits would do 1 hullpoint one turn and then erase a vehicle in another. Those are the whims of the psychic phase though. I'm more inclined to rely on the weaker beams more in the future since the strength d spells eat up so many dice and have good chances of not doing any significant damage anyways.
Game 2: (ITC Crusade Mission) My opponent was trying something different and ran the new mastodon filled with an ironclad dread, 2 units of centurion assault devastators, 2 units of sisters of silence, a couple psykers, 3 quad mortars, and a few units of scouts.
I rolled almost everything in heretech again so ahriman got scrapcode curse and the exalted sorc and scarab occult sorc both got flayerstorm. Every single tzeentch power I rolled was boon of mutation or breath of chaos again which I'm getting real tired of. Opponent got first turn so I set Magnus up out of range of the strength 8 shots from all the mortars so he wouldn't get wrecked before he took off and kept the exalted sorc and ahriman attached to the rubrics and scarab terms near the middle.
Turn 1: Opponent drove the mastodon filled to the brim straight towards my lines on one flank, tried to cast some buff spells from inside the vehicle (because even though there were sisters of silence in the vehicle with them GW made auras stop working in vehicles since they don't count as on the table while still letting the psykers cast technomancy buffs while inside a transport), then fired his mortars trying to snipe wounds into my characters but I was able to LOS and pass all my saves. My turn I was able to set Magnus up in a central position within 18" of all my psykers for siphon magic while also getting ahriman and the scarab occult term close enough to the mastodon for casting. Ahriman got all 3 scrapcode curses off taking 8 hullpoints himself, the scarab occult term got 1 or 2 more with flayerstorm, then Magnus hit it with 2 strength D's to finish it off while also casting the nova to kill off 8 scouts from two different units. I then safely flew away with ahriman and sent my exalted sorc flying behind his lines to start dealing with the mortars.
Turn 2: The ironclad dread, one sisters of silence squad, and a librarian advanced on my terminator unit and were able to wipe them out easily (he was using the ap 2 swords on the sisters and I had to throw all my dice at killing the mastodon so he couldn't repair it back up so I had no buffs to my invuls). He tried to bring down magnus with all his mortars and twinlinked shots after surrounding him with the two squads of centurions and another squad of sisters but I survived the firepower. In my turn I had to be careful about getting out of the huge areas in the middle of the table that the sisters of silence were shutting down powers in. I could barely find a safe spot for ahriman to be able to go after the ironclad but he either failed or was denied on all 3 casts anyways. Magnus managed to kill a couple of the centurions and summoned a chariot but it scattered and the wreckage of the damn mastodon blocked line of sight to the sisters so that was no good. I did get to kill a few of the sisters with the ironclad dread using my rubrics but 1 survived. My stellar exalted sorc failed a 4 inch charge into a mortar. I boosted away again to safety with ahriman.
Turn 3: The ironclad and sisters continued their advance and charged into the rubrics but this time my saves were better and the combat against the dread, 1 sister of silence, and librarian ended up lasting several turns making it impossible for me to cast in and finish them off. He failed again to bring down Magnus with all his twin linked melta guns and mortars and such shooting at Magnus. He was able to kill my chariot that ended up doing nothing because of LOS. This time I went ahead and cast force on Magnus so even if he did bring me down I'd insta kill the centurions. I also got another chariot out that was able to wipe the second squad of sisters. My exalted sorc moved towards the second mortar since the first was pretty much finished off by my predator tank at this point and rockstar that he is he failed another 5 or 6" charge.
Turn 4: Opponent gave up on Magnus because he was getting too whittled down so he killed my chariot and tried to hurt my exalted sorc while the rubrics continued their fight against the sister, librarian, and dreadnought. Exalted sorc moved towards the centurions and librarian while psychic shrieking to finish off the second mortar. Magnus ended up finishing off the rest of the centurions and librarian using baleful devolution (getting me a spawn too!) and some beams though so still no combat for my seer's bane. The last rubric finally died at the end of my turn freeing him up but it was too late for Ahriman to be able to clean them up.
Turn 5: The dread made a decently long charge into one of my heralds near the predator tank that was holding my back objective and that was about it for his turn since the others failed the charge. Nothing really mattered at this point so I just moved my exalted sorc over and tried to charge the last sister of silence and librarian. Sure enough, he failed another 4" charge and the game ended 11-0 for me.
I found the sorcs on discs to be phenomenal in both these games because they have such great mobility to get in range and then boost to safety. It also helped a lot getting them within 18" of magnus to let him use siphon magic since even with 21 mastery levels on the table I still needed lots more dice to get everything off that I wanted. Magnus was incredibly durable and my opponents will probably ignore him more in future games. Even with null zones from multiple sisters of silence squads I was still fast enough to get to cast from safety though. Being able to strip 12 hullpoints from a superheavy vehicle in a single turn was pretty impressive and demoralizing for my opponent. Let down that my seer's bane exalted sorc did very little in close combat but that was just bad luck on the charge ranges. Magnus was the focus of most of the games as I kept flying him in right next to multiple units leading to my opponents focusing a lot on him. It makes him lethal to opponents with all those nearby targets but it was also making it really hard to summon since there weren't many safe spots nearby. I'm still finding I want better ways to keep track of spells and the psychic phase in general. It's just a pain to stay on top of everything and makes the game feel less fun for my opponent since they can't do much during my turn.
For tracking effects of psychic powers, I think I'm gonna go with a small dry erase board. Probably the easiest thing I can think of short of making tokens for everything. But even with tokens you still have to fish them out and make sure you have all the ones you need. Ive done it in the past and it always seems like I spend a ton of time looking for just the right token.
I also make my lists in excel, so I make a table for each psyker. That lets me write their powers for each game in pencil. Then I erase it and can use it again next game.
Now for questions:
What's your strategy for rolling for powers?
Are you using your heralds to summon? Or risking the perils with a sorcerer?
How would you approach a mirror match versus thousand sons, both against a force with Magnus and one without Magnus?
Thanks for the battle reports. I'm finding them very helpful.
lessthanjeff wrote:I went for the War Cabal because I wanted Magnus and Ahriman to be able to cast as many spells as possible but I'll probably try the CAD at some point as well. Here are the results of the small event I played at today.
My list was Magnus, Ahriman on a disc, a level 3 exalted sorc on a disc with seer's bane, rubric squad, scarab occult squad with hellfyre missile launcher, predator with auto cannon and las cannons, and a heralds anarchic with 3 barebones heralds of tzeentch.
Game 1 (ITC emperor's will mission), ...
Game ended there because psychic phases were going so slow so I won 9-3. My successes seemed far more subject to the whims of the psychic phase this game. Going so hard into heretech made it hard to combat non vehicle units so I'll have to balance that out better next time. Magnus was great as a versatile tool that could adapt to whatever the opponent had. He'd take down a knight or large unit one turn then summon chariots to clear units out of cover and help grab objectives the next. He was inconsistent though since things like novas would go off and get strength 1 one turn and then 6 the next or strength d hits would do 1 hullpoint one turn and then erase a vehicle in another. Those are the whims of the psychic phase though. I'm more inclined to rely on the weaker beams more in the future since the strength d spells eat up so many dice and have good chances of not doing any significant damage anyways.
I found the sorcs on discs to be phenomenal in both these games because they have such great mobility to get in range and then boost to safety. It also helped a lot getting them within 18" of magnus to let him use siphon magic since even with 21 mastery levels on the table I still needed lots more dice to get everything off that I wanted. Magnus was incredibly durable and my opponents will probably ignore him more in future games. Even with null zones from multiple sisters of silence squads I was still fast enough to get to cast from safety though. Being able to strip 12 hullpoints from a superheavy vehicle in a single turn was pretty impressive and demoralizing for my opponent. Let down that my seer's bane exalted sorc did very little in close combat but that was just bad luck on the charge ranges. Magnus was the focus of most of the games as I kept flying him in right next to multiple units leading to my opponents focusing a lot on him. It makes him lethal to opponents with all those nearby targets but it was also making it really hard to summon since there weren't many safe spots nearby. I'm still finding I want better ways to keep track of spells and the psychic phase in general. It's just a pain to stay on top of everything and makes the game feel less fun for my opponent since they can't do much during my turn.
Awesome summaries mate, and well done on getting some more wins. The amount of fail in breath is quite staggering and it never, ever fails to amaze me how bad it is when I resort to using it. Given our total lack of anti tank, I feel that you don't have much choice but to devote 2 sorcs to Heretek if your opponent is fielding any reasonable amount of armour, and those games where you don't roll scrap or flayer, well, you're just **** out of luck, hope you rolled +1 T as a consolation prize. I'm surprised that you say that you'd cut back on the str D though due to being too WC intensive. I can see the merits, especially if enemy vehicles have a strong cover save such as darkshrouds, but 6 dice for the beam (if you can catch 2 or more vehicles) isn't really that bad since you can't miss and there's an assured penetrating hit with 5's to explode along with any HP you might do can't be all that bad, surely? You'll be using at least 2 dice for cruse and 3 for flayer anyway and it's still 2 hp either way but much harder to get saves against the beam. That's also some absolutely shocking rolls on the Seer Sorc - How much do you think would have changed if he's made his charges? Looking forward to reading the other games, keep up the awesome stuff.
stewy37 wrote: For tracking effects of psychic powers, I think I'm gonna go with a small dry erase board. Probably the easiest thing I can think of short of making tokens for everything. But even with tokens you still have to fish them out and make sure you have all the ones you need. Ive done it in the past and it always seems like I spend a ton of time looking for just the right token.
Combine the two ideas. Get some acrylic counters and use wet erase markers (Staedler makes a decent set.)
stewy37 wrote: For tracking effects of psychic powers, I think I'm gonna go with a small dry erase board. Probably the easiest thing I can think of short of making tokens for everything. But even with tokens you still have to fish them out and make sure you have all the ones you need. Ive done it in the past and it always seems like I spend a ton of time looking for just the right token.
Combine the two ideas. Get some acrylic counters and use wet erase markers (Staedler makes a decent set.)
I don't have a general strategy for powers, I look over each list and try to plan out what I need. If I need an armor cracking spell and get it on my first try, then I switch to something that can also hurt infantry like psychic shriek. When I see deathstar type lists or units with strong invuls I go into sinistrum, people getting invis make me try to get some doombolts. That sort of thing.
If I had a mirror match, I'd probably roll hard into sinistrum to cut invuls and because the blessing that gives +2 strength, toughness, and attacks would come in very handy for charging in and winning combats/challenges. Even warp lure would be handy for sniping out mastery levels. You really only need 1 or 2 death hexes because I have a very focused fire kind of approach where I like to knock out 1 or 2 units consistently rather than spread damage around. I don't think I'd care as much about getting shriek since our leadership is so high.
I've been throwing 7 dice at gaze of magnus because I think 6 dice comes to around a 26% chance of failure which is far too high for that much of an investment of dice. It is very powerful, but it is only worth it when you can get multiple tough units in the line. If you're just getting 1 or 2 hits I think i'm going to start refraining and use those 7 dice to get lots of buffs and other spells off. The mastodon was an exception because I had to kill it with the beam or it could have regained many hull points back.
Ahriman has been rough because he doesn't have a spell familiar. I actually prefer him just getting scrapcode curse so I can get off several without using my entire pool. When I got him in range of something, he typically consumed 12ish of my dice but it was usually worth it (except for the breath of chaos barrage...)
My heralds were just batteries that I hid in the back to hold objectives and try to keep out of LOS. They were so far back that I didn't even try to summon with them and I wouldn't have wanted to pour the required dice into doing so anyways. I found my opponents weren't getting into my backfield much either as I was frequently up in their face and jumping around luring them in one direction or another so they were content to pretty much sit in place all game.
That's very helpful. I'm hoping to get my first game with Thousand Sons in this upcoming weekend. I'm starting to get an idea of what kind of strategy I should be pursuing.
godardc wrote: I fought against a Thousand Sons army today, and all their powers gave them a lot of tactical flexibility.
The player choose a lot of heretech powers to fight against my armored company, from example.
So, eventually, I don't think the TS lack AT weapons.
However, they are very dependent of the psy, I wonder how they play against Grey Knights ?
I posted a short bat rep against some GK's a page back in the thread, if you're interested. In short, it went a lot better than I expected. While they had a decent psychic standing, being able to grab things like Psychic Shrieks on several squads really helped where the GK's are stuck with set powers, except for the HQ's. Flexibility certainly helps, though it is a random thing, obviously.
I've played probably a dozen or more games with my Thousand Sons since the new Wrath of Magnus book was released.
If you want a 'friendly' list you don't take Magnus, but if you want to be able to reliably win a game you take Magnus.
If anyone does know a good use for regular Rubic Marines besides upgrading them with a Melta Bomb and a Rhino I'd love to hear it.
They're doubly useless in the War Cabal because they don't even get Objective Secured. And your Aspiring Sorcerers are unlikely to cast two powers a turn anyway.
Last saturday finally had my first game with Thousand Sons. 1500pts, used an undersize war cabal with Ahriman leading, 2 exalted sorcs (1 on disk with Bane), one unit of 10 Rubrics with soulreaper and 2 flamers, one unit of 5 rubrics, and one unit of 5 Scarabs with soulreaper. I totalled 14 ML, and I think I rolled good powers: 2xinvisibility, 2xdevolution, detonate-beam, that poison flame, shrouding, 2xscream, and something not used.
It was a friendly game againts DA running 3 x ravenwing attack sqd at 3 bikes+speeder, two typhoons one just HB. One sqd had a HB attack bike too. On top of that he had a Deathwin redemption force with 3 squads of termies and a termie cmd sqd with ML1 Librarian.
It was a maelstrom mission 4 (I think, the one you get tac objs equal to turn). Short story is I lost to tabling at turn 5a. My pricipal downfall was losing the initiative after infiltrating scarabs and larger rubric sqd with grimoire exacalted. Instead of me toasting his forward-scouted bike squads and forcing him to bring in DW with scatter or near his table edge, he got lucky and killed 2 termies and 4 rubrics basically with bolters and 3 typhoons shots. I hit for some 4-5 wounds and used ex sorc on disk to kill a bike sqd, but that was my biggest mistake, as it left him stranded alone and easily killed by incoming termies with bolters & assault cannon.
Ahriman killed one full termie squad in one shot of Baleful devolution, althoug got no spawns. Rubrics with 4++ or 3++ were supringsingly resilient. Scarab sorc had some good shots but failed his powers too often. Overall I think I was bit too stingy with warp dice, trying to eke them out, and that led me faling too often. I also neglected blessings, and lost some wound i should not have. Oracular guidance triggered often, nicely turning misses to hits.
Last turn he got bit lucky again, stripping 2 final wounds of invisible Ahriman with less than 20 bolter and typhoon shots.
I think I should have cast invisibly, or both of them, first every turn, and just accept less mind bullet dice. But in our FLGS we usually play with invis toned down as RAW is deemed OP, perhaps that is my excuse to underusing it.
Overall very nice game. It was a hassle keeping up with 14 spells, triggered oracular guidance and triggered T blessing. Was doable with glass bead counters, need more of them.
Last saturday finally had my first game with Thousand Sons. 1500pts, used an undersize war cabal with Ahriman leading, 2 exalted sorcs (1 on disk with Bane), one unit of 10 Rubrics with soulreaper and 2 flamers, one unit of 5 rubrics, and one unit of 5 Scarabs with soulreaper. I totalled 14 ML, and I think I rolled good powers: 2xinvisibility, 2xdevolution, detonate-beam, that poison flame, shrouding, 2xscream, and something not used.
It was a friendly game againts DA running 3 x ravenwing attack sqd at 3 bikes+speeder, two typhoons one just HB. One sqd had a HB attack bike too. On top of that he had a Deathwin redemption force with 3 squads of termies and a termie cmd sqd with ML1 Librarian.
It was a maelstrom mission 4 (I think, the one you get tac objs equal to turn). Short story is I lost to tabling at turn 5a. My pricipal downfall was losing the initiative after infiltrating scarabs and larger rubric sqd with grimoire exacalted. Instead of me toasting his forward-scouted bike squads and forcing him to bring in DW with scatter or near his table edge, he got lucky and killed 2 termies and 4 rubrics basically with bolters and 3 typhoons shots. I hit for some 4-5 wounds and used ex sorc on disk to kill a bike sqd, but that was my biggest mistake, as it left him stranded alone and easily killed by incoming termies with bolters & assault cannon.
Ahriman killed one full termie squad in one shot of Baleful devolution, althoug got no spawns. Rubrics with 4++ or 3++ were supringsingly resilient. Scarab sorc had some good shots but failed his powers too often. Overall I think I was bit too stingy with warp dice, trying to eke them out, and that led me faling too often. I also neglected blessings, and lost some wound i should not have. Oracular guidance triggered often, nicely turning misses to hits.
Last turn he got bit lucky again, stripping 2 final wounds of invisible Ahriman with less than 20 bolter and typhoon shots.
I think I should have cast invisibly, or both of them, first every turn, and just accept less mind bullet dice. But in our FLGS we usually play with invis toned down as RAW is deemed OP, perhaps that is my excuse to underusing it.
Overall very nice game. It was a hassle keeping up with 14 spells, triggered oracular guidance and triggered T blessing. Was doable with glass bead counters, need more of them.
Tomorrow, full cabal at 1850.
Happy casting,
Timmon
Isn't baleful devotion a focused witchfire that can only kill one model?
I think that Baleful devolution does target the full unit. Have to check that. If it does not, it will not be nearly as good as it seemed.
Btw, I did use Psychic Shriek 3-4 times, rolled badly and didnt get any wounds even on bikes with regular sgt's. Compared to that, Baleful seemed a better choice with BS5 Ahriman and Excalteds, with oracular guidance.
Timmon wrote: I think that Baleful devolution does target the full unit. Have to check that. If it does not, it will not be nearly as good as it seemed.
Btw, I did use Psychic Shriek 3-4 times, rolled badly and didnt get any wounds even on bikes with regular sgt's. Compared to that, Baleful seemed a better choice with BS5 Ahriman and Excalteds, with oracular guidance.
Timmon
Next time try the primaris from ectomancy or whatever the double heavy bolter one is. Getting 18 shots at BS 5 with re-rolling 1s and wounding on 3s with Ahriman is just downright wrong.
Timmon wrote: I think that Baleful devolution does target the full unit. Have to check that. If it does not, it will not be nearly as good as it seemed.
Btw, I did use Psychic Shriek 3-4 times, rolled badly and didnt get any wounds even on bikes with regular sgt's. Compared to that, Baleful seemed a better choice with BS5 Ahriman and Excalteds, with oracular guidance.
Timmon
Next time try the primaris from ectomancy or whatever the double heavy bolter one is. Getting 18 shots at BS 5 with re-rolling 1s and wounding on 3s with Ahriman is just downright wrong.
Would result in 3.88 dead marines. By comparison, 3 psy shreiks would result in 7.5 wounds to ld8. And getting progressively vs things like centurions or bikers.
Timmon wrote: I think that Baleful devolution does target the full unit. Have to check that. If it does not, it will not be nearly as good as it seemed.
Btw, I did use Psychic Shriek 3-4 times, rolled badly and didnt get any wounds even on bikes with regular sgt's. Compared to that, Baleful seemed a better choice with BS5 Ahriman and Excalteds, with oracular guidance.
Timmon
Next time try the primaris from ectomancy or whatever the double heavy bolter one is. Getting 18 shots at BS 5 with re-rolling 1s and wounding on 3s with Ahriman is just downright wrong.
Timmon wrote: I think that Baleful devolution does target the full unit. Have to check that. If it does not, it will not be nearly as good as it seemed.
Btw, I did use Psychic Shriek 3-4 times, rolled badly and didnt get any wounds even on bikes with regular sgt's. Compared to that, Baleful seemed a better choice with BS5 Ahriman and Excalteds, with oracular guidance.
Timmon
Next time try the primaris from ectomancy or whatever the double heavy bolter one is. Getting 18 shots at BS 5 with re-rolling 1s and wounding on 3s with Ahriman is just downright wrong.
Would result in 3.88 dead marines. By comparison, 3 psy shreiks would result in 7.5 wounds to ld8. And getting progressively vs things like centurions or bikers.
Fairly sure I've posted this before, even though it's modeled around a BS4 sorc, it's still relevant.
The best use for rubrics btw is as fearless bubble wrap for sorcerers, and an extra force weapon spell in the squad in case the sorc fails his roll for the blessing buff.
BTW Can I just say it's super lame that rubric squad aspiring sorcs lost their generic force weapon and have to take staves? Force axe rubric squads have torn up big nasty monsters while they flailed at 4++ fearless sponges.
Timmon wrote: I think that Baleful devolution does target the full unit. Have to check that. If it does not, it will not be nearly as good as it seemed.
Btw, I did use Psychic Shriek 3-4 times, rolled badly and didnt get any wounds even on bikes with regular sgt's. Compared to that, Baleful seemed a better choice with BS5 Ahriman and Excalteds, with oracular guidance.
Timmon
Son of a gun, it does only target one model... It does offer a chance to snipe ICs or special weapons but I am disappointed that it does not effect units.
ICs can LOS so that is probably better but what a waste if you don't exceed the WC threshold.
Does it only affect the targeted model? It has a weapon profile, which is different than every other Focused Witchfire. So I guess those attacks still must be resolved?
Baleful Devolution was not in the FAQ. Rules for focussed witchfires tend to assume you only get to attack a model, but it does not say that it always only targets one model
Baleful Devolution itself speaks of models in plural, and says that "if any models are slain..." and again in placing the spawn "any of the slain models".
This, along with the fact that BD has a proper shooting profiles which many focussed witchfires lack, mean IMO that it does target the full unit, but the first hits are allocated to the target model if the focussed -part of the witchfire succeed.
If BD can only ever kill one model, its is much less useful obviosly.
It can affect the unit once the main objetive died. The profile of the power (as a weapon one) and the fact of the description mentioning "any of the slain models" makes it clear
With "any of the slain models" clearly they are saying that could kill several models with that use of the plural xD.
Never saw anyone using it to wound a single miniature
Franarok wrote: It can affect the unit once the main objetive died. The profile of the power (as a weapon one) and the fact of the description mentioning "any of the slain models" makes it clear
With "any of the slain models" clearly they are saying that could kill several models with that use of the plural xD.
Never saw anyone using it to wound a single miniature
I would need to look at the FAQ on witchfire but reading it in the book last night it seemed clear. If you exceed the WC needed you can target any model. If you do not exceed you target the closest model.
Perhaps it does mean the closest and if resolved move to the next model though. That would be great.
I have been thinking about Firestorm. The best quality is that Firestorm is conferred onto every unit. So it can be cast with single dice from multiple sources, eliminating any need to waste WC as insurance. The worst quality is its high unpredictability, which can be flattened out somewhat by casting multiple instances. Regarding the weapon profile itself, there is an extremely narrow band of effective targets. Low toughness is crucial as anything above T3 kills the Inferno effect. Finally, Firestorm has no AP value, so it's only competitive against other witchfires when facing a flat Invul save.
I used GSC Purestrains and Daemonettes for a quick comparison.
The takeaway here is how important low toughness is to get Firestorm working at all. Beyond those numbers which assume hits, scatter is a factor. A direct hit is typically 50-61% likely depending on BS, so Firestorm needs enough models templated to compensate for blasts which scatter off target. You want a direct hit to cover 5+ models, and ideally any misses clip something anyway. If the target geometry is unfavorable, Firestorm cannot be used effectively.
So how do you conceptualize all that junk? I think it means Firestorm is all about opportunity. If a good target like First Curse presents itself, it can be Enfeebled and hit by 4-6 blasts which are always on call and unlikely to miss.
This is situational utility at best, but since the power is guaranteed by Chaos Psychic Focus, I'm looking for positives.
It's still ineffective against the targets Drasius covered on page 25.
But I understand that you don't consider him due to low point games. Also Blessing of Tzeentch is a great buff in the book. Still not as good as the buffs deathguard get, but for me it is the second best blanket rule in the traitor legions.
