Introduction/Table of Contents
A note on sources. As of 12/08/16 I'm looking at Codex Chaos Marines, Wrath of Magnus, and Traitor's Hate as sources for the primary idea of this tactica. Once I get access to Traitor Legions I'll see if there is any difference between it and what we've seen in WoM, but it's my understanding there shouldn't be any. Daemonic allies can be found in Codex Daemons and Codex Daemons: Daemonic Incursion. Obviously when discussing allies and the like those faction's relevant books will be used.

For reference you will find below lists of the mechanical contents of each of the above mentioned books. No, I'm not giving you the rules, just a list of which book a given formation/relic/datasheet/whatever can be found in.

Warzone Fenris: Wrath of Magnus


Traitor's Hate

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Thousand Sons - Overview and Army Building by Ericthegreen
I have a few people excited by this in my area, including myself, so I'm trying to organise my thoughts. You can find reviews of the rules and formations elsewhere, I'm sure, so this is more a stream of consciousness. Firstly - not top tier in the slightest, but a decent mid table army with cool funky stuff, which for most CSM players is a massive leg up from where we were.

What Are Thousand Sons Good At?


What Are Thousand Sons Bad At?


The Psychic Power Conundrum


Lores To Consider:


Covering the Gaps

Formations

TL/DR: Take allies to cover inherent weakenesses in an elite, survivable army. Try to strike a balance between buffs and mind bullets.
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Allies of Chaos
Section Under Construction, looking for contributors.

Non Chaos Allies
Section Under Construction, looking for contributors.

Battle Reports
Section Under Construction, looking for contributors.

FLG has rudimentary rules up seems legit

Units

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/26/war-zone-fenris-wrath-of-magnus-review-dataslates-and-special-rules/

Formations and Detachments

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/26/wrath-of-magnus-review-formations-and-detachments/


Matches the exact stuff some people have said and the current picture on Bell of the Lost Souls

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/11/wrath-of-magnus-thousand-sons-special-rules.html

So probably legit.

Apparently warseer is back in December.

Looking forward to Tsons tactica. So far, everything still feels overcosted.(Except horrors, which are mental)
I'm most interested in the artefact that makes infantry jump. Many possibilities...

Jump 3++ termies. Still overpriced but at least fun.

I have a queery:
The seers bane daemon weapon says to use your leadership as strength and their leadership as toughness for purposes of wounding. Fine so far. But thdn it says to use the targets toughness for purposes of instant death, is this their toughness vs your leadership or your strength? As it is worded on FLG it would seem that you use your leadership vs their toughness but I would like someone to confirm this.

If this interpretation is right then suddenly a Tzeentch sorceror on a disc with the seers blade is also a nasty cc unit capable of taking out multi wound models.

 mrhappyface wrote:
I have a queery:
The seers bane daemon weapon says to use your leadership as strength and their leadership as toughness for purposes of wounding. Fine so far. But thdn it says to use the targets toughness for purposes of instant death, is this their toughness vs your leadership or your strength? As it is worded on FLG it would seem that you use your leadership vs their toughness but I would like someone to confirm this.

If this interpretation is right then suddenly a Tzeentch sorceror on a disc with the seers blade is also a nasty cc unit capable of taking out multi wound models.

Yes, i interpreted the same way.

Though, there are some instances of invalidating the sorc. Like a harlequin mask or scary pods from the sm formation that give -2 ld to models near them or a heldrake formation. Not saying that it's common - just a thing to be aware of.

It's still pretty nasty against most things.

It would seem that Tzeentch HQ's/LoW are now must haves: we have sorcerors casting on 3+, an artifact to turn things into jump units, sorcerors who can insta kill most things, Ahriman who can spam witchfire, Magnus who will get off any power you need, increasing invul across the board and much more.

Still very expensive (points and money wise ) but 2000+ point games will be devistating.

From what it looks like, most the stuff looks overcosted, and Tzanngors are Ork Boyz by another name.

The Artifact that lets a nearby Infantry unit move like Jump Infantry looks like a must-have though, and the ability to make *any* CSM Detachment a Tzeentch Detachment could be potentially hilarious. Worst comes to worst, you could pop that artifact on a Warpsmith from a Warpack, and plug that into a R&H Purge list for Jump Zombies.

One question I have is whether Scarab Terminators are similar to Cataphractii w.r.t. being able to be used as Terminators for any formation that requires them. If yes, a unit of Scarabs would be hilarious (if usually impractical) in a Terminator Annihilation Force, especially if you also got access to Gate of Infinity or Hammerhand.

I imagine that although RAW-wise, nothing stops a Black Legion formation from being a Thousand Sons formation too, it will be FAQd to be "no", but if yes, it would have the amusing side-effect of making VoTLW free and replacing it with a MoT tax instead. Which, again, could be hilarious on certain combos. Sadly, you wouldn't be able to do the same with Crimson Slaughter due to them not being able to take VoTLW.

On another note, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch that cast Cursed Earth on itself would have a 3++ and reroll 1s...

Has anyone thought about allying in the maelstorm of gore to actually make bezerkers useful?
With the jump infantry artifact we then get bezerkers with jump, fleet and +3" charge range. They would still have survivability problems but it's an improvement.

Yea,I would like o know that too about the termies. In an annihilation force they become pretty scary. If you include warlord traits, you could have a non scattering units with 4 S8 Ap3 shots, 8 S5 Ap3 rending shots plus whatever sorceries you get.
After all they could get the cabal power and the brand too and/or a D-Beam. And they could shoot at two units or more with psychic power and for 1 warp charge they can gain storm shields by activating force (not entirely sure on this one).
They may cost enough for 3 equivalent units but they also put out the same amount or more of firepower, albeit once. And their sorc can roll on divination for prescience so they'd get to re-roll all of that to.

That would be a pretty good xmas present for TSons players lol.

Best start trawling Ebay for anyone piecing out Warhammer Quest boxes. Anyone looking to actually take advantage of the most overpowered Troop Choice in the game is going to need about a billion dollars to do so, since you now need 100 models to fully use a single 20-Man unit of horrors.

Seriously, the trio of horror units is the biggest sleeper in this update. The whole spliting into more units? Wow, that's better than Reanimation Protocols by a mile. Haven't seen the deatchment details yet but I may just run one token 1K sons squad and fill out troop slots with Horrors. Any of the Horror units are pretty much an auto take from what I've seen...unreal.

 Bach wrote:
Seriously, the trio of horror units is the biggest sleeper in this update. The whole spliting into more units? Wow, that's better than Reanimation Protocols by a mile. Haven't seen the deatchment details yet but I may just run one token 1K sons squad and fill out troop slots with Horrors. Any of the Horror units are pretty much an auto take from what I've seen...unreal.

I suppose it is balanced out by peoples unwillingness to want to bring 100+ models for every 90pts of horrors they use.

But yes: if you have the time, money, patience and you don't want to make friends then it is the most OP thing in the game.

Well don't forget to bring a bag of extra Chaos Spawn as well since some spells turn enemy units into them

It hit me last night, late bloomer sorry, that this army is meant to be spear headed by the sorcerers and the marines are really here for body guard support, and tzaangors and horrors there for cheap fodder.

Thus the sorcerers are the linchpin of strategy.

I was looking at this all wrong before.

It seems we need to utilize the ability to gain an extra power so that all our sorcerors can rain some kind of death.

I was playing with list building.

10 man Rubric with Soul Reaper 290

5 Man rubric for 150

5 man rubric for 150

5 man occult for 250

Exalted Sorc (ML3) 185

That is 1025 with only a ML3 and soul reaper cannon upgrade.

My group usually plays in the 1250- 1750 range.

Leaves a little for tzaangors, horrors or other upgrades but is lean.

I went with 2 five man units of Rubirc Marines for board control and an extra sorcerer instead of a second 10 man unit with another soul reaper.

What other strategies?

I realize a coven of some kind is necessary as well.

 Skerr wrote:
It hit me last night, late bloomer sorry, that this army is meant to be spear headed by the sorcerers and the marines are really here for body guard support, and tzaangors and horrors there for cheap fodder.

Thus the sorcerers are the linchpin of strategy.

I was looking at this all wrong before.

It seems we need to utilize the ability to gain an extra power so that all our sorcerors can rain some kind of death.

I was playing with list building.

10 man Rubric with Soul Reaper 290

5 Man rubric for 150

5 man rubric for 150

5 man occult for 250

Exalted Sorc (ML3) 185

That is 1025 with only a ML3 and soul reaper cannon upgrade.

My group usually plays in the 1250- 1750 range.

Leaves a little for tzaangors, horrors or other upgrades but is lean.

I went with 2 five man units of Rubirc Marines for board control and an extra sorcerer instead of a second 10 man unit with another soul reaper.

What other strategies?

I realize a coven of some kind is necessary as well.

Keep in mind that all the units have soul blaze automatically now, so the Icon is a unknown right now it could make the models much better.

 Skerr wrote:
It hit me last night, late bloomer sorry, that this army is meant to be spear headed by the sorcerers and the marines are really here for body guard support, and tzaangors and horrors there for cheap fodder.

Definitely.

AV and mass marine spam -- Probably need to lean heavily on Haywires from Heretech discipline
Wrathknights -- Seer's Blade, Daemon Weapon, -2 LD debuff. You're wounding on 2's with ID from Force
Riptide Wing -- TS shooting isn't going to do it, that's for sure. LD warfare and Shriek? D attacks? Psychic defence?
Necron Decurions -- with no psychic phase and mass AP3, probably a winning matchup
Horde armies -- meet them with templates and buffed up Tzaangors?

I am thinking the Heldrake formation for the LD debuff and the ability to wreck 3+ units that can outmaneuver the TS. Which will also discourage huddling in cover against the AP3 bolt weapons.

This just in from this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/2190/9045764.page

Iuchiban wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Thanks Ichiban! What are the auxiliary formations for the thousand sons decurion?

Let's go with formations then:

War cabal:
1 Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
1-3 Rubric Marines
1-3 S O Termies
1-3 Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer

Benefits:
If formation is maximezed in number of units, reroll 1's to sabe.
I a Psyker manifest one power, during the next Psychic phase the Psyker and his unit may reroll 1's to hit


War Coven
1 Daemon Prince, Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3-9 Sorcerer of Exalted Sorcerer

Benefits:
Same as War Cabal (reroll 1's to sabe when max)
The formation may choose one of the psychic disciplines of the BRB and cast those powers with 3+, instead of 4+.



Tzangoor warheard
1 Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3 units of Tzangoors
0-6 units of Tzangoors or Spaws

Benefits:
Fleet
Reroll to save 1's when max
Tzangoors may run and charge. If charge distance is 9 or more, +1S and +1I.


Sehkmet Conclave
1 Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcecer, Daemon Prince, Ahriman or Magnus
3-9 Units of Scarab Termis

Benefits:
Fear
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Units in this formation have +1T if they are at 6" of any other 2 units of this formation.


Ahriman Exiles
Ahriman
3-9 Exalted Sorcerers

Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Ahriman and any sorcerer at 18" cast powers with 3+.


Rehati War Sect
Magnus
3-9 Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer

Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
If at 18" of Magnus, the formation cast powers with 3+, and have line of sight with every unit in the battlefield.

So the problem im seeing is that to reroll saves of 1 you end up paying so many points it wont help you in a game.

It will be interesting to see if these make the table.

My group really likes to play in the 750-1750 range making the maxed formations a no go.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This just in from this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/2190/9045764.page

Spoiler:

Iuchiban wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Thanks Ichiban! What are the auxiliary formations for the thousand sons decurion?

Let's go with formations then:

War cabal:
1 Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
1-3 Rubric Marines
1-3 S O Termies
1-3 Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer

Benefits:
If formation is maximezed in number of units, reroll 1's to sabe.
I a Psyker manifest one power, during the next Psychic phase the Psyker and his unit may reroll 1's to hit


War Coven
1 Daemon Prince, Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3-9 Sorcerer of Exalted Sorcerer

Benefits:
Same as War Cabal (reroll 1's to sabe when max)
The formation may choose one of the psychic disciplines of the BRB and cast those powers with 3+, instead of 4+.



Tzangoor warheard
1 Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3 units of Tzangoors
0-6 units of Tzangoors or Spaws

Benefits:
Fleet
Reroll to save 1's when max
Tzangoors may run and charge. If charge distance is 9 or more, +1S and +1I.


Sehkmet Conclave
1 Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcecer, Daemon Prince, Ahriman or Magnus
3-9 Units of Scarab Termis

Benefits:
Fear
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Units in this formation have +1T if they are at 6" of any other 2 units of this formation.


Ahriman Exiles
Ahriman
3-9 Exalted Sorcerers

Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Ahriman and any sorcerer at 18" cast powers with 3+.


Rehati War Sect
Magnus
3-9 Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer

Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
If at 18" of Magnus, the formation cast powers with 3+, and have line of sight with every unit in the battlefield.

So the problem im seeing is that to reroll saves of 1 you end up paying so many points it wont help you in a game.

Not sold on this but War Cabal on its own seems like the main way at sub 2k points to make good use of the reroll 1s armor save. You can fit 4 sorcerers, 3 min sized rubrics and 3 min sized termies into an 1850 list with room for some upgrades. Figure you bump up size of one of the termintaor squads, get that jump artifact and terminator armor for some or all of the sorcerers. Looks like no chainfists for the terminators so anti armor is definitely an issue. But that much reroll 1s with good shot at 3++ and lots of 2+ armor, could work ok. Probably not though lol.

Other option is via the War Coven. 10 sorcerers in terminator armor joined to something (like the tzangors maybe). Silly as hell deathstar.

Exiles would be great if you could take regular Sorcerors but he and three Exalteds are hella expensive just to get casts on 3+. Although with rerolls from familiars that's a very dominant and reliable psychic battery to fuel a death star. Those four attached to a unit of 30 tzangoors and the Astral Grimoire (unit becomes junp infantry) maybe?

 winterman wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This just in from this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/2190/9045764.page

Spoiler:

Iuchiban wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Thanks Ichiban! What are the auxiliary formations for the thousand sons decurion?

Let's go with formations then:

War cabal:
1 Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer
1-3 Rubric Marines
1-3 S O Termies
1-3 Exalted Sorcerer or Sorcerer

Benefits:
If formation is maximezed in number of units, reroll 1's to sabe.
I a Psyker manifest one power, during the next Psychic phase the Psyker and his unit may reroll 1's to hit


War Coven
1 Daemon Prince, Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3-9 Sorcerer of Exalted Sorcerer

Benefits:
Same as War Cabal (reroll 1's to sabe when max)
The formation may choose one of the psychic disciplines of the BRB and cast those powers with 3+, instead of 4+.



Tzangoor warheard
1 Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer
3 units of Tzangoors
0-6 units of Tzangoors or Spaws

Benefits:
Fleet
Reroll to save 1's when max
Tzangoors may run and charge. If charge distance is 9 or more, +1S and +1I.


Sehkmet Conclave
1 Sorcerer, Exalted Sorcecer, Daemon Prince, Ahriman or Magnus
3-9 Units of Scarab Termis

Benefits:
Fear
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Units in this formation have +1T if they are at 6" of any other 2 units of this formation.


Ahriman Exiles
Ahriman
3-9 Exalted Sorcerers

Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
Ahriman and any sorcerer at 18" cast powers with 3+.


Rehati War Sect
Magnus
3-9 Daemon Prince, Exalted Sorcerer

Benefits:
Reroll 1's to sabe if max
If at 18" of Magnus, the formation cast powers with 3+, and have line of sight with every unit in the battlefield.

So the problem im seeing is that to reroll saves of 1 you end up paying so many points it wont help you in a game.

Not sold on this but War Cabal on its own seems like the main way at sub 2k points to make good use of the reroll 1s armor save. You can fit 4 sorcerers, 3 min sized rubrics and 3 min sized termies into an 1850 list with room for some upgrades. Figure you bump up size of one of the termintaor squads, get that jump artifact and terminator armor for some or all of the sorcerers. Looks like no chainfists for the terminators so anti armor is definitely an issue. But that much reroll 1s with good shot at 3++ and lots of 2+ armor, could work ok. Probably not though lol.

Other option is via the War Coven. 10 sorcerers in terminator armor joined to something (like the tzangors maybe). Silly as hell deathstar.

with the War Cabal you have 10 Sorcerers 6 from units and 4 from IC sorcerers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Exiles would be great if you could take regular Sorcerors but he and three Exalteds are hella expensive just to get casts on 3+. Although with rerolls from familiars that's a very dominant and reliable psychic battery to fuel a death star. Those four attached to a unit of 30 tzangoors and the Astral Grimoire (unit becomes junp infantry) maybe?

You can take the war coven which is the same thing just for 1 psy discipline and can get sorcerers.

Can the Scarab take Combi-Weapons? If so that's gonna be super neat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can the Scarab take Combi-Weapons? If so that's gonna be super neat.

Not sure but don't see why they wouldn't. I'm more interested in the S5 AP3 Heavy Flamer

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can the Scarab take Combi-Weapons? If so that's gonna be super neat.

Not sure but don't see why they wouldn't. I'm more interested in the S5 AP3 Heavy Flamer

Flamers won't be reliable enough on Terminators. I'm thinking the Assault Cannon or ML will be the most popular choices simply because the range is more important than the potential damage from the Flamer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Can the Scarab take Combi-Weapons? If so that's gonna be super neat.

Not sure but don't see why they wouldn't. I'm more interested in the S5 AP3 Heavy Flamer

Flamers won't be reliable enough on Terminators. I'm thinking the Assault Cannon or ML will be the most popular choices simply because the range is more important than the potential damage from the Flamer.

If you're DS'ing termies like you should, flamers come in more handy. Plus with all the movement shenanigans TS can now do, from making a unit jump for a turn to deep striking without scattering sometimes, you can really make full use of termicide with flamers.

Plus the non-formation auxiliary of a demon engine lets you bring a heldrake, helbrute, maulerfiend, forgefiend, as just one offs which is great.

Based on the rules i'm also liking some of the formations from traitors hate to turn into TS detachments. The cult of destruction and raptor talon seem promising to support a TS decurion or as one offs.

Has anyone attempted to huild lists with what we have so far? I saw the numbers on the war coven .

In order to offer some variety in 1750 or less games the formations will make it hard to squeeze in much else.

While I agree the jump artifact is cool the helm seems an auto include for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With a blessing is the best save we can get a 3++?

If so failing a save on a 2 and getting rerolls on a 1 seems like there would be a high tax. A lot of the formations at max seem like they are designed to be used on their own with little support from other units outside the formation which is the reason for the high price tag.

I am not a DA Death Wing expert but take Belial and pimp out 3 units of DW termies as troops in drop pods and you at 1500-2000 correct?

Do the formations without the rerollable save benefit look good to anyone? when you really look at it as nice as the benefit is it is skirting the lines of invincibility army wide.

Why not use the number of units in the formation you need and forgo the nigh-uber invincibility?

I see folks bemoaning the cost of the 1kson marines, but with the hordes of tzaangors and pink horrors kicking around I think they'll be able to take the pressure off the expensive SOT and Rubrics who'll shred anything not sporting a 2+ while sorcs use psychic powers to bring down those big nasties. Just my initial thoughts after looking at everything.

I feel like the formations are kinda a raw deal that could have been so much better if you didn't need max units, it just makes it impractical points wise and upsets the balance of units that it seems like 1ksons want to be a TAC. I'm by no means a competitive player but I do see this as a boost in power to csm (I know, that's not a very high bar) but it seems like 1kson are going to favor plans upon plans in a very tzeentchian fashion and will reward the player that knows them in and out.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I see folks bemoaning the cost of the 1kson marines, but with the hordes of tzaangors and pink horrors kicking around I think they'll be able to take the pressure off the expensive SOT and Rubrics who'll shred anything not sporting a 2+ while sorcs use psychic powers to bring down those big nasties. Just my initial thoughts after looking at everything.

I feel like the formations are kinda a raw deal that could have been so much better if you didn't need max units, it just makes it impractical points wise and upsets the balance of units that it seems like 1ksons want to be a TAC. I'm by no means a competitive player but I do see this as a boost in power to csm (I know, that's not a very high bar) but it seems like 1kson are going to favor plans upon plans in a very tzeentchian fashion and will reward the player that knows them in and out.

What your not taking into account is that you will have no room for upgrades once you have taken the stuff you want. Just 2 units of SOT and 3 units of TS is 950 points, that's no HQ and no upgrades.

The problem with tzaangors and horrors is with the high high cost of getting the re-rolls. Once you have the minimum units, you're hardpressed to add any options, let alone add chaff units. And yet that would be were they are the most valuable.
I really only see it as an upgrade in case you're playing apocalypse.

I feel that TS Sorcerers and Exalted sorcerers aren’t really that good/efficient compared to standard unmark ones.

1. You are forced to roll on the Tz discipline one time which limits your chance on getting other most desired powers. So a lvl 3 is pretty much a lvl2 in terms of trying to fish for that invis, warp fate and etc.

2. Pretty much can't be psychic focussed on any discipline besides Tz.

3. Exalted sorcerers can only take a disk?? I rather have a bike or jump pack for cheap.

Honestly I rather just run a standard black legion cabal and just attach Ahriman and one-two exalted sorcerers(with relics ofc) to it.

Depends, from what I hear they have a lord statline, and with that daemon weapon they can pack quite a punch. Though other than the extra melee punch, they don't seem to offer a whole lot. I could see myself using one or two in certain lists as beatsticks and to provide that +1 invulnerable. Remember that they also add fearless, as opposed to normal sorcerors.
Perhaps add one with the weapon and pick up prescience for the unit and whatever they get from tzeentch, they get.

If you just need somebody to cast invisibility though, then yea, pretty meh in that role.

 Roknar wrote:
Depends, from what I hear they have a lord statline, and with that daemon weapon they can pack quite a punch. Though other than the extra melee punch, they don't seem to offer a whole lot. I could see myself using one or two in certain lists as beatsticks and to provide that +1 invulnerable. Remember that they also add fearless, as opposed to normal sorcerors.
Perhaps add one with the weapon and pick up prescience for the unit and whatever they get from tzeentch, they get.

If you just need somebody to cast invisibility though, then yea, pretty meh in that role.

Pretty much they are not worth taking in 3s or 4s, whats the point having 3+ WC harness when you don't even have the spells you need.

A 3++ TS deathstar will still get shred to pieces by Warp spiders and scatter bikes if you don't get invis or warp fate up.

Edit: Or worse Iron Priests on Thunder wolves, S10 hammer attacks with hatred against TS, good night sweet baby .

I think the rerolling of 1s on invulns is just expensive gravy. On its own not maxed the cabal look great.

2 sorc, 1 rubric marine unit and 1 occult unit and If I cast a spell my unit can reroll ones until next psychic phase. That is awesome. Combined in a War Coven which allow each psycher to manifest 1 extra spell, reroll perils of warp and warlord traits I think that is great base for a force. Throw in the auxiliary and optional command and your war coven is now open for you to customize to maybe 1500 an up.

I think that if they never put in the Favored of Tzeentch to begin with we would not even notice because of the other cool stuff. rerolling 1s on saves when you all ready can get 3++ constantly is OP IMO and we should pay out the nose.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I see folks bemoaning the cost of the 1kson marines, but with the hordes of tzaangors and pink horrors kicking around I think they'll be able to take the pressure off the expensive SOT and Rubrics who'll shred anything not sporting a 2+ while sorcs use psychic powers to bring down those big nasties. Just my initial thoughts after looking at everything.

I feel like the formations are kinda a raw deal that could have been so much better if you didn't need max units, it just makes it impractical points wise and upsets the balance of units that it seems like 1ksons want to be a TAC. I'm by no means a competitive player but I do see this as a boost in power to csm (I know, that's not a very high bar) but it seems like 1kson are going to favor plans upon plans in a very tzeentchian fashion and will reward the player that knows them in and out.

Who's gona shoot at horrors when they can shoot at 1000 sons early on and than when the threats are down, slowly grind through endless horrors. The game will end turn 2 or 3 in like 5 hours after you've proxied your horrors with all the bottlecaps you were able to find in a mile's radius.

Anyone have a list somewhere of the current known pt costs? Going to try to put together a list =D

 Skerr wrote:
I think the rerolling of 1s on invulns is just expensive gravy. On its own not maxed the cabal look great.

2 sorc, 1 rubric marine unit and 1 occult unit and If I cast a spell my unit can reroll ones until next psychic phase. That is awesome. Combined in a War Coven which allow each psycher to manifest 1 extra spell, reroll perils of warp and warlord traits I think that is great base for a force. Throw in the auxiliary and optional command and your war coven is now open for you to customize to maybe 1500 an up.

I think that if they never put in the Favored of Tzeentch to begin with we would not even notice because of the other cool stuff. rerolling 1s on saves when you all ready can get 3++ constantly is OP IMO and we should pay out the nose.

When you find yourself removing an entire 150 point squad when 1 squad of of Fire Warriors opens fire with an Ethereal nearby you will be thinking twice. Not to mention if your firing first you wont even wipe a full squad but end up leaving 5ish guys.

Math! TSons have a 3+ Armour, or 3+ Invuln. Doesn't matter, Pulse Rifles are AP5.

A 150 point squad is 5 men, for 5 wounds. Times 3 for a 3+ save, for 15. Wounding on 3s, so times 1.5, for 22.5. Hitting on 4s, so double it for 45. That is 15 Warriors rapid-firing with the Ethereal bonus, so slightly more than a full squad.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Math! TSons have a 3+ Armour, or 3+ Invuln. Doesn't matter, Pulse Rifles are AP5.

A 150 point squad is 5 men, for 5 wounds. Times 3 for a 3+ save, for 15. Wounding on 3s, so times 1.5, for 22.5. Hitting on 4s, so double it for 45. That is 15 Warriors rapid-firing with the Ethereal bonus, so slightly more than a full squad.

You're not taking into account marker lights which i forgot to mention.

Oh FFS.

I guess you'll have to figure out a different strategy than walking into the enemy's guns with your invincible units.

This is an army that revolves around successful psychic phases. Why not figure out what might work against Tau?

Yeah, but that's yet more points. A squad of 12 Fire Warriors (which is, I think, around 100 points) within 15" and undamaged, an Ethereal (another 50 or so points) AND Markerlights (let's assume from Drones, since they're superior to Pathfinders, so that's another 28 points) is sitting higher than the cost of your TSons.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Oh FFS.

I guess you'll have to figure out a different strategy than walking into the enemy's guns with your invincible units.

The irony of you calling the unit invincible when pointing out that there not invincible.

It was sarcasm, I believe.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, but that's yet more points. A squad of 12 Fire Warriors (which is, I think, around 100 points) within 15" and undamaged, an Ethereal (another 50 or so points) AND Markerlights (let's assume from Drones, since they're superior to Pathfinders, so that's another 28 points) is sitting higher than the cost of your TSons.

Okay a 12 man squad of Fire Warriors and 1 Fireblade 168 points will get 24 shots per turn at max range, 2 turns the unit is down and you will have lost maybe 2, and that's without any ML support.

24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8/3rds past the saves for 2.33 wounds per turn. So that's 3 turns to kill them at max range, thank you very much.

And that assumes you aren't, you know, attacking the Tau.

 JNAProductions wrote:
24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8/3rds past the saves for 2.33 wounds per turn. So that's 3 turns to kill them at max range, thank you very much.

And that assumes you aren't, you know, attacking the Tau.

2.33*2= 4.66 which means out of 10 attempts they will kill the entire unit 6-7 times.

Yeah with your 4 shots 3 hits 2 wounds 1 loss you lose 46 points he loses 9 points.

How's the psychic phase work out for those Fire Warriors + Ethereal?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 8/3rds past the saves for 2.33 wounds per turn. So that's 3 turns to kill them at max range, thank you very much.

And that assumes you aren't, you know, attacking the Tau.

2.33*2= 4.66 which means out of 10 attempts they will kill the entire unit 6-7 times.

Yeah with your 4 shots 3 hits 2 wounds 1 loss you lose 46 points he loses 9 points.

You're missing the Fire Blade's shots: 2 shots, 10/6 hit, 20/18 wounds, 10/27 unsaved wounds.

That makes it over 5 wounds in 2 rounds, I believe.

Yoyoyo wrote:
How's the psychic phase work out for those Fire Warriors + Ethereal?

IDK show the math. Keep in mind all the spells are under 24".

Count how many shots you need to kill the pink horrors.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
IDK show the math. Keep in mind all the spells are under 24".

Why not?

1) I advance in the movement phase.
2) I kill some dudes with Witchfires.
3) I run out of LOS instead of shooting.

If you are really lucky, you can snipe out the Ethereal with Devolution.

If you have nothing special, you can try your luck with Tzeentch's Firestorm.

Why are you insisting on taking a 3+ psychic unit with a great Invul directly against massed AP- shooting? This is literally the worst possible use of this unit!

If getting shot at is your jam, you should be using Decurion Warriors or Horrors.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
IDK show the math. Keep in mind all the spells are under 24".

1) I advance in the movement phase.
2) I kill some dudes with Witchfires.
3) I run out of LOS instead of shooting.

"Slow and Purposeful Many warriors are steady but sure, slow to advance but no less deadly for it. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you are really lucky, you can snipe out the Ethereal with Devolution.

If you're relying on luck to win a shoot out you're going to lose.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you have nothing special, you can try your luck with Tzeentch's Firestorm.

Same as above. Keep in mind you have to put the Sorcerer at the very front to do that which means 4+ look out sirs or die, you will fail sooner or later and lose the sorc.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Why are you insisting you take 3+ psychic unit with a great Invul directly against massed AP- shooting? This is literally the worst possible use of this unit

It's not that I am insisting on doing that its that the opponent will insist on making it happen, and with so few units on the board I'm not going to be able to stop that from happening.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If getting shot at is your jam, you should be using Decurion Warriors or Horrors.

I don't get to choose who the enemy shoots at he does.

You do get to choose what you bring, and what tactics you use. You should have a mix of TSons and, say, Tzangors. Send the Tzangors after the little gribblies, and use your TSons as hammers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You do get to choose what you bring, and what tactics you use. You should have a mix of TSons and, say, Tzangors. Send the Tzangors after the little gribblies, and use your TSons as hammers.

That would be ideal. Problem is if you take all the units to get the rerollable 1s on saves you have like 350 points left which is not enough to do anything. Which is why I am considering dropping 2 units of OST which will free up 500 points.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
"Slow and Purposeful Many warriors are steady but sure, slow to advance but no less deadly for it. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

Hmm... what if we put them in a Rhino?

Can we shoot a witchfire and then scram?

In fact, can't we actually drive them into their target with a bunch of S4 AP4 Flamers?

Or just shoot them to death with a hijacked Stormsurge?

Point is, you are smart enough to know trying to overmatch markerlight, Ethereal supported Tau in the shooting phase is probably a losing battle. So why not come at the problem from a different direction? Can we build a list to shift our offense into the psychic phase?

So what are the actual advantages of taking scarab occult terminators over normal' thousand sons' Mark of tzeemtch terminatots?
You can buy a sorcerer separately(could even be unmarked).
You can add an icon or a Lord if you want fearless.
You lose the ap3 bolters but gain access to chainfists which in my mind is essential for a terminator unit.
Then make them jump infantry and off you go.

Probably formation bonuses to make them very durable. regular termies will end quickly without rerolls.

True , but those rerolls are almost ludicrously difficult to get at a sensible points level. Same thing can be achieved through psychic powers(although far from guaranteed.. losing a power to tzeentch is so annoying)

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
"Slow and Purposeful Many warriors are steady but sure, slow to advance but no less deadly for it. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. However, they can shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons."

Hmm... what if we put them in a Rhino?

Can we shoot a witchfire and then scram?

In fact, can't we actually drive them into their target with a bunch of S4 AP4 Flamers?

Or just shoot them to death with a hijacked Stormsurge?

Point is, you are smart enough to know trying to overmatch markerlight, Ethereal supported Tau in the shooting phase is probably a losing battle. So why not come at the problem from a different direction? Can we build a list to shift our offense into the psychic phase?

What you would be better off doing is putting them in a rhino, move forward 6 disembark 6, mind bullets, actual bullets, flatout rhino to block LOS. You can take out quite a few squads that way just have to do a lot of thinking ahead.

The flamers might work but will be a massive cost increase.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Skerr wrote:
I think the rerolling of 1s on invulns is just expensive gravy. On its own not maxed the cabal look great.

2 sorc, 1 rubric marine unit and 1 occult unit and If I cast a spell my unit can reroll ones until next psychic phase. That is awesome. Combined in a War Coven which allow each psycher to manifest 1 extra spell, reroll perils of warp and warlord traits I think that is great base for a force. Throw in the auxiliary and optional command and your war coven is now open for you to customize to maybe 1500 an up.

I think that if they never put in the Favored of Tzeentch to begin with we would not even notice because of the other cool stuff. rerolling 1s on saves when you all ready can get 3++ constantly is OP IMO and we should pay out the nose.

When you find yourself removing an entire 150 point squad when 1 squad of of Fire Warriors opens fire with an Ethereal nearby you will be thinking twice. Not to mention if your firing first you wont even wipe a full squad but end up leaving 5ish guys.

Lol, mileage will vary for sure. Doesn't everyone want to be nigh invulnerable? Still with all the AP3 and spell capability 3++ is very solid. 3++ with rerollable one consistently for all our power armor seems a bit unrealistic and out of balance (yup, I said it) thus the cost.

I realize I am in the minority here and that is ok. I am sure there will be times when I am like "Dang wish I had the rerollable ones. Having played Cegorachs Revenge (Harlie formation that allows relrollable 1s on saves) the rerollable 1s does come up feast or famine. However their base save is a 5++.




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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You do get to choose what you bring, and what tactics you use. You should have a mix of TSons and, say, Tzangors. Send the Tzangors after the little gribblies, and use your TSons as hammers.

That would be ideal. Problem is if you take all the units to get the rerollable 1s on saves you have like 350 points left which is not enough to do anything. Which is why I am considering dropping 2 units of OST which will free up 500 points.

Good point TSS. Though to start I am not going to worry about the reroll to saves. that seems like it should be reserved for big baller games of 2000+.

If I get my butt handed to me I might reconsider how to do so. or just run a maxed War Cabal which I think comes up under 1850. Would be interesting to see how these formations play on their own without additional unit support. Folks might cry "NO CHANCE" but hey, you get your rerollable 1s.

I cannot wait for us to start test playing this army

So I've been debating on what to pick up first, and I'm leaning towards Ahriman ro box of sorcs, 2 boxes of Rubrics and Magnus, OR Ahriman, Rubrics, Termies and a box of sorcs so I can run the War Cabal to start off with. Eventually I plan on getting Tzaangors and more sorcs to run the War Coven and Herd, but I'm torn between formation or badass model. XD

CaptainSomas wrote:
So I've been debating on what to pick up first, and I'm leaning towards Ahriman ro box of sorcs, 2 boxes of Rubrics and Magnus, OR Ahriman, Rubrics, Termies and a box of sorcs so I can run the War Cabal to start off with. Eventually I plan on getting Tzaangors and more sorcs to run the War Coven and Herd, but I'm torn between formation or badass model. XD

From the knowledge we have right now I think you would be better off with the ability to run the War Cabal.

Yeah, I was leaning towards that. I like the idea of a psyker heavy list with Rubrics and Tzaangors being meat shields. Still, Magnus is a gorgeous model. Maybe I can convince someone to spend 130 on me for Christmas, haha.

Bad idea no.9: The silver tower.
Take a bastion, plop a sorcerer coven on top, taking the jump infantry artefact. Give them a brutal cc infantry bodyguard.(I'm thinking mutilators give you best bang for footprint, but ymmv). Stick a shooty unit like oblitorators in the bastion.
Fish for writhing worldscape, and harness powers on a 3+.

Use worldwrith to fly the bastion around blasting things, summoning thjngs and buffing self. You can become jump infantry and jump off whenever you want for a charge.

Only..1400 ish points. Terrible idea.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Bad idea no.9: The silver tower.
Take a bastion, plop a sorcerer coven on top, taking the jump infantry artefact. Give them a brutal cc infantry bodyguard.(I'm thinking mutilators give you best bang for footprint, but ymmv). Stick a shooty unit like oblitorators in the bastion.
Fish for writhing worldscape, and harness powers on a 3+.

Use worldwrith to fly the bastion around blasting things, summoning thjngs and buffing self. You can become jump infantry and jump off whenever you want for a charge.

Only..1400 ish points. Terrible idea.

Gave me a good laugh.

Aren't the termi T5 ? With their good invu + jump infantry + T5, aren't good enough ?

 godardc wrote:
Aren't the termi T5 ? With their good invu + jump infantry + T5, aren't good enough ?

Only T5 in a formation in which they require to be within 12" of two other units.

 Sasori wrote:

CaptainSomas wrote:
So I've been debating on what to pick up first, and I'm leaning towards Ahriman ro box of sorcs, 2 boxes of Rubrics and Magnus, OR Ahriman, Rubrics, Termies and a box of sorcs so I can run the War Cabal to start off with. Eventually I plan on getting Tzaangors and more sorcs to run the War Coven and Herd, but I'm torn between formation or badass model. XD

From the knowledge we have right now I think you would be better off with the ability to run the War Cabal.

Agreed, that is a great formation to start with. You only then need an Auxiliary for Grand Coven I believe.

You don't need the T5, War Cabal terminators with their reroll are durable enough. Against 750pts of Scatterbikes :

28(4)(2/3)(5/6)(1/6)(1/6) = 1.7W

You lose about 70pts.

By comparison, Rubrics against 450pts of Scatterbikes :

28(4)(2/3)(5/6)(1/6) = 10.4W (failed 2's)
28(4)(2/3)(5/6)(1/6)(1/3) = 3.5W (failed rerolls)

You're losing over 300pts.

The lesson here is that even with a reroll, Rubrics are more than 3x less durable against high-volume AP-.

So... plan according!

In ITC you only get a 4+ on re-rolls for 2+. But nobody really bring that many scatbikes any more, Warp spiders are what you have to worry about with their potential rends.

750pts of Scarab termies comes to about 40 models of Warp Spiders. You'd lose about 2 models in each squad to rends, with an unmodified reroll and 3++.

Major differences appear once you get into the AP-. Scarab termies lose about 1x model (40pts), Rubricae lose about 8x (~180pts).

This isn't nearly as extreme in ITC with the modified reroll on a 2+. But it's still worth noting.

I'd be surprised if the maxed War Cabal made it to the meta.

Its too inflexible. You have your minimum chunk (1500 points or so) leaving you enough for maybe a Heldrake plus a few upgrades and that's it.

That gives you some very resilient terminators - but their damage output is still a dozen S4 AP3 shots with maybe a couple of heavy weapons - which doesn't seem very concerning given its pushing nearly half your points. Rubrics re-rolling 1s hold up a bit better than MEQ against AP4 & up (and considerably better at AP3 and down) but given their cost its unclear this is enough. Again its more low volume AP3 bolter fire.

Really its going to come down to whether your ML (14-19 before any other investment) will make a mess of the enemy. Its difficult to theorycraft given the wide variety of disciplines (and random power generation) but I am not sure it will work.

More importantly what makes thousand sons any better at this spam ML approach than other CSM? Being able to try and manifest one more power than usual (probably Tzeentch's Firestorm) doesn't seem like much of a perk. Tzeentch should be a more interesting discipline now - but is it obviously better than other options?

I guess that is all a bit negative but that's my thoughts at the moment. Its the same old CSM problem - everything looks expensive for what you get.

Anyone have any information on the demon formations yet? I thought there was a formation that allowed you to take 1-3 Lord of Change or Fateweaver straight up.

There is. Its Fateweaver + 1-3 LoC, allows them to reroll 1s when manifesting psychic powers, as well as for to hit and to wound rolls.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
There is. Its Fateweaver + 1-3 LoC, allows them to reroll 1s when manifesting psychic powers, as well as for to hit and to wound rolls.

Thats... wicked as all hell.

I'd do just Fatey + 1 LoC to keep the cost low... but, that's a juicy buff.

Tyel wrote:
Really its going to come down to whether your ML (14-19 before any other investment) will make a mess of the enemy. Its difficult to theorycraft given the wide variety of disciplines (and random power generation) but I am not sure it will work.

Not only that but you're going to be tailoring your powers to your matchup.

So it's difficult to theorycraft without knowing what's on the table.

CaptainSomas wrote:
Yeah, I was leaning towards that. I like the idea of a psyker heavy list with Rubrics and Tzaangors being meat shields. Still, Magnus is a gorgeous model. Maybe I can convince someone to spend 130 on me for Christmas, haha.

Just get them online for like 30% off =P makes Magnus a bit more affordable for sure. Basically get a couple kits for free if you buy all the new ones.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
There is. Its Fateweaver + 1-3 LoC, allows them to reroll 1s when manifesting psychic powers, as well as for to hit and to wound rolls.

Can anyone post the page where it describes how this formation can be used? Really, really interested in putting a LoC in my regular CSM army because I love flexibility of beatstick or psychic powers, plus, I'm about to super-convert one of my own.

Debilitate wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
There is. Its Fateweaver + 1-3 LoC, allows them to reroll 1s when manifesting psychic powers, as well as for to hit and to wound rolls.

Can anyone post the page where it describes how this formation can be used? Really, really interested in putting a LoC in my regular CSM army because I love flexibility of beatstick or psychic powers, plus, I'm about to super-convert one of my own.

Its a formation so you use it... like a formation

Debilitate wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
There is. Its Fateweaver + 1-3 LoC, allows them to reroll 1s when manifesting psychic powers, as well as for to hit and to wound rolls.

Can anyone post the page where it describes how this formation can be used? Really, really interested in putting a LoC in my regular CSM army because I love flexibility of beatstick or psychic powers, plus, I'm about to super-convert one of my own.

What do you mean how? like what do you have to take it with?

I thought it could be taken as part of the TS decurion as an auxiliary choice - I hadn't seen it mentioned on any of the sites. I was just curious.

Debilitate wrote:
I thought it could be taken as part of the TS decurion as an auxiliary choice - I hadn't seen it mentioned on any of the sites. I was just curious.

Its a daemon faction formation so it's for the daemon decurion, not TS's decurion

This might be useful if you want to understand the Detachments and Formations.

My autism got the better of me - I thought it was an aux choice and not just a standalone formation. Thanks for the pic~

Gahd damnit, I hate these formation detachments.
Four sorcerers in the core detachment to max it out. No. I obviously want to take all the sorcerers in the war coven to get the 3+ casting roll
On the plus side, the detachment bonus is so weak . Soweak. It's nowhere near worth losing objective secured.

Grand coven looks good. I like the benefits and the reroll 1s to hit until the next psychic phase is sweet on the War Coven.

Won't be maxing them for rerollable 1s to save though. I will take my chances with a 3++. If I'm not back in 10 send a tzaangor herd in after me!!


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Looks like i can bring in additional tanks for auxiliary formations if I have the points.

Right now looking at

Exalted sorcerer ML3
2 exalted sorcerer ML2
3 disks
2 10 man rubric with Soul reaper
5 man occult

1 heldrake

Approximately 1600

The rest on legion armor or tzaangor warheard up to 1750 to 2000.

What are people's thoughts on what maximizing means for the purposes of the blessings of tzeentch rule? That is, do I just need to take the max number of units or max number of units + max sizes for those units?

So to get the blessing rule for say the war coven what does that look like model wise?

To get the rerolls to saves, you need at minimum, 4 sorcerors , 3 rubrics and 3 scarab occult.

 buddha wrote:
What are people's thoughts on what maximizing means for the purposes of the blessings of tzeentch rule? That is, do I just need to take the max number of units or max number of units + max sizes for those units?

So to get the blessing rule for say the war coven what does that look like model wise?

Right now I don't think it's worth it. Your list will not be diverse enough if you try to achieve it, it's just to heavy of a points sink. The War Cabal would pretty much be your entire list for instance. You just need the max number of units to achieve it.

Also, no one has really mentioned it but there really isn't too much taxing in the detachment If you take the War Cabal and use, let's say a Heldrake as an Auxillary. Infact, I think this is the first CSM detachment (from any book) to not tax Heldrakes at all, which is nice.

 buddha wrote:
What are people's thoughts on what maximizing means for the purposes of the blessings of tzeentch rule? That is, do I just need to take the max number of units or max number of units + max sizes for those units?

So to get the blessing rule for say the war coven what does that look like model wise?

you have to max number of units.

A war coven? 10 Sorcerers min at 600 points.


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 Bach wrote:
Also, no one has really mentioned it but there really isn't too much taxing in the detachment If you take the War Cabal and use, let's say a Heldrake as an Auxillary. Infact, I think this is the first CSM detachment (from any book) to not tax Heldrakes at all, which is nice.

That's because the units themselves are a tax.

You can just take two helldrakes as a formation, why worry.



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People have been pretty quiet about the daemon formations, but from whats been said they look pretty Damn awesome


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Just realised they've completely and utterly failed to allow you to make a legion of rubricae in this detachment, you need 3 tax units for every 3 rubrics. Gah.

Nvm that, there is only a single formation for actual rubricae lol. Looking at the aux and command formations, it's like all exalted sorcerers or daemon princes XD.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
You can just take two helldrakes as a formation, why worry.



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People have been pretty quiet about the daemon formations, but from whats been said they look pretty Damn awesome


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Just realised they've completely and utterly failed to allow you to make a legion of rubricae in this detachment, you need 3 tax units for every 3 rubrics. Gah.

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.


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 Roknar wrote:
Nvm that, there is only a single formation for actual rubricae lol. Looking at the aux and command formations, it's like all exalted sorcerers or daemon princes XD.

LOL but the SOT have 2 both of which are core choices. Im just hoping that Traitors Legions has 1 or 2 more formations that are more Thousand Sons and less everything else.

Some incorrect information in here. Blessing of Tzeentch is universal to all detachments that are classified as TS.



This means it can be easily applied to CAD units. For example:

Tzeentch-marked CSM with Warp Fate will be rerolling a 3+/5++.
Marked Bikers with Shrouded have a 5++ in case of Ignores Cover.
Any unit with the Daemon USR under a blessing will improve to a 3++.
TK dome gives Mark/VotLW units a 3++ against shooting.
Aura/Mark/VotLW now compare favourably against a Sigil.

As far as Rubricae themselves go, they are pretty easy to access in a CAD as they're troops. Likewise with Tzaangors. So it's probably worthwhile weighing CAD flexibility and Obsec against the formations.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.

That's interesting you say that because in Traitor's Hate, Chaos Space Marine squads are only available in 1 core choice and no where else. Hmm I guess Traitor's Hate isn't Chaos Space Marine enough?

Seriously though, the good part about this release is the sorcerors (all types), hand down. This is why you will play Thousand Sons. Rubrics are OK (AP 3 is a bigger deal than people make it out to be) but they are generally too expensive to take more than a couple of squads even if you really like them like I do.

As an aside, it would be fun and try to maybe Gate around a squad of Rubrics on the board since Perils can be rerolled.

You can make a nice CAD with normal CSM classified as Thousand Sons.

Like:

1 Socerer, MoT, Votlw, Jumpinfantary artifact, Spellfamiliar, ML3 maybe Terminator amour or give him a Aura for a 3++ if you get a blessing on him

Than take 3-9 Terminators with Combiweapons and mixed cc weapons with MoT, Votlw and cast a blessing on them for a sweet 3++

As tax you take 2x10 Cultists with MoT (or one unit for an allied detachment)

It's cheap, packs a lot of punch and special weapons in a Unit of Terminators with Stormshield equivalents and they move 12" per turn.

You can combine this with a lot of other good things and i think that the normal csm terminators are not worse than the new rubric terminators.

 Bach wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.

That's interesting you say that because in Traitor's Hate, Chaos Space Marine squads are only available in 1 core choice and no where else. Hmm I guess Traitor's Hate isn't Chaos Space Marine enough?

Seriously though, the good part about this release is the sorcerors (all types), hand down. This is why you will play Thousand Sons. Rubrics are OK (AP 3 is a bigger deal than people make it out to be) but they are generally too expensive to take more than a couple of squads even if you really like them like I do.

As an aside, it would be fun and try to maybe Gate around a squad of Rubrics on the board since Perils can be rerolled.

Your comparing A generic unit type to a specific unit type. To me Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, and Cult troops are all variations of CSM. TS are a subset of CSM, if there was 1 Formation that was mostly TS and some Tzzangors, and Sorcerers that would be fine, but when you have 1 Core that is half TS half SOT and another core that is all SOT, and not a single Aux choice with any TS, then your not doing a TS Formations your doing SOT Formations.


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 Darksider wrote:
You can make a nice CAD with normal CSM classified as Thousand Sons.

Like:

1 Socerer, MoT, Votlw, Jumpinfantary artifact, Spellfamiliar, ML3 maybe Terminator amour or give him a Aura for a 3++ if you get a blessing on him

Than take 3-9 Terminators with Combiweapons and mixed cc weapons with MoT, Votlw and cast a blessing on them for a sweet 3++

As tax you take 2x10 Cultists with MoT (or one unit for an allied detachment)

It's cheap, packs a lot of punch and special weapons in a Unit of Terminators with Stormshield equivalents and they move 12" per turn.

You can combine this with a lot of other good things and i think that the normal csm terminators are not worse than the new rubric terminators.

What I will probably end up doing is going 2 unist of TS with 3 units of Tzaangors since it will keep the cost down and still give me 5 Ob. Sec. units.

Does Chaos Knight of Tzeentch get a 2++ against shooting and a 3++ against melee if a cursed earth is cast? Yippee!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Your comparing A generic unit type to a specific unit type. To me Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, and Cult troops are all variations of CSM. TS are a subset of CSM, if there was 1 Formation that was mostly TS and some Tzzangors, and Sorcerers that would be fine, but when you have 1 Core that is half TS half SOT and another core that is all SOT, and not a single Aux choice with any TS, then your not doing a TS Formations your doing SOT Formations.

A Space Marine squad is a specific type of unit (pg 36 & pg 95 from CSM codex) , just like Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, and yes, Thousand Sons are a specific unit in the CSM codex (pg 45 and pg. 98).

From what I'm understanding from you is that you're not crazy about terminators, much less terminators that will cost 250 points per squad. I'm not either but I will reserve judgement until I can play them. But the take away from Wrath of Magnus is that the Thousand Sons theme goes across several units now and and not just limited to the original 4++, can't run, chaos space marine unit with the foot slogging sorceror. All I'm saying is don't count out the SOT just yet, they may be quite fun if using some of the new stuff like the jump pack artifact.

If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

peirceg wrote:
Does Chaos Knight of Tzeentch get a 2++ against shooting and a 3++ against melee if a cursed earth is cast? Yippee!

Vehicles can't benefit from the improved invulnerable from being in a TSons detachment by virtue of not having the Veterans of the Long War special rule.

 Bach wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes this is one of the more irritating things about this release. They were like THOUSAND SONS FORMATIONS!!!! and im sitting here thinking I think you meant formation cause there's only 1.

That's interesting you say that because in Traitor's Hate, Chaos Space Marine squads are only available in 1 core choice and no where else. Hmm I guess Traitor's Hate isn't Chaos Space Marine enough?

Seriously though, the good part about this release is the sorcerors (all types), hand down. This is why you will play Thousand Sons. Rubrics are OK (AP 3 is a bigger deal than people make it out to be) but they are generally too expensive to take more than a couple of squads even if you really like them like I do.

As an aside, it would be fun and try to maybe Gate around a squad of Rubrics on the board since Perils can be rerolled.

Agreed, 1k sons is really about sorcerers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drakmord wrote:
If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

I would like to know this also.

Drakmord wrote:
If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

So it would seem. You couldn't take the maelstrom of gore, for example, because it violates the no marks but tzeentch rule but chaos warband to terminator annihilation force all seem eligible.

As above I think unless you plan to go heavy psyker the traitors hate formations seem the better bet. But if you want to go psyker heavy, damn they've made it appealing.

There is a thread for that in YMDC. Although it's a little speculative at the moment.

 buddha wrote:

Drakmord wrote:
If any CSM detachment can be a TSons detachment by following those rules, that naturally includes Formation Detachments, right? Like that deepstrike assault Warp Talon formation?

So it would seem. You couldn't take the maelstrom of gore, for example, because it violates the no marks but tzeentch rule but chaos warband to terminator annihilation force all seem eligible.

As above I think unless you plan to go heavy psyker the traitors hate formations seem the better bet. But if you want to go psyker heavy, damn they've made it appealing.

You wanted to run thousand son berserkers? Dust for the dust god!

I mean, there /Are/ thousand sons black legion. It's not a fluff abomination to have a thousand sons Cylopea cabal.
But I feel tolerating mixing supplements is a dark path.

I'm thinking Fateweaver might help offset some of the TS randomness.

Table Results - Modifying first D6

Table Results - Modifying second D6
.

Analysis of the Boon table:

Observations :

- Spawnhood risk is reduced to 0.9% (from 5.6%).
- Dark Apotheosis risk is decreased to 0.9%. Or increased to 12.1%.
- Boon of Mutation will improve any DP to a 4++ (Blessing of Tzeentch). If so, it's always worthwhile.
- Fateweaver has some solid psychic shooting, including an AP1 D attack.
- You could also use his reroll to help fish on the BRB using the Scrolls of Magnus.

I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

You trade higher toughness for a better Invul (better versus Grav, weaker versus Scatpacks).

You trade the Archon + Webway Portal ally combo for "movement" Psyker powers (Ghoststorm looks potentially hilarious with them).

You trade the mini-d in exchange for being cheaper by a decent amount of points.

There is one thing though that looks potentially entertaining with them however. If Warpflamers are treated as Flamer Weapons for as defined in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook (the way Skorchas, the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, etc, are), that means you can hook them up to a Promethium Fuel Relay.

Think about that for a moment.

Thousand Sons are S&P and thus can move-and-fire Heavy Weapons. The Promethium Relay/Fuel Tanks from a Munitorium Armored Crate allow any non-vehicle Flamer Weapon within 2" of it to become a Heavy Torrent weapon.

Ladies and Gentlemen, this looks like Chaos got Heldrake infantry.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

I'm afraid that the Warpflamers are only S4 AP4 Warpflame. It's the Scarab Occult Terminator that have the Heavy Warpflamers which are S5 AP3 Warpflame.

Ah. Well, that idea burned out quickly.

Guess they're still a mini-Dark Reaper escort for their Sorcerer then. Bleh.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

I'm afraid that the Warpflamers are only S4 AP4 Warpflame. It's the Scarab Occult Terminator that have the Heavy Warpflamers which are S5 AP3 Warpflame.

Wait what? We got ap3 bolters standard but have to pay for ap4 flamers?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Ah. Well, that idea burned out quickly.

Guess they're still a mini-Dark Reaper escort for their Sorcerer then. Bleh.

Yes, Rubrics are just too expensive to really justify, beyond the required unit in the War Cabal. I am pretty surprised that GW managed to miss this somehow, they should easily have been about 5 PPM less.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had a few additional thoughts.

Honestly, Thousand Sons don't look anywhere as bad as they used to now that Warpflamers are a thing. S&P means no overwatch but whoop-de-doo. A small unit is about 180 points for 4 S5 AP 3 Flamers and a Warp Charge. Considering how Wraithguard with Dscythes are about 250 points, that sounds "mostly" legit.

I'm afraid that the Warpflamers are only S4 AP4 Warpflame. It's the Scarab Occult Terminator that have the Heavy Warpflamers which are S5 AP3 Warpflame.

Wait what? We got ap3 bolters standard but have to pay for ap4 flamers?

Yup, not sure who took the picture but BOLS had some pictures from the armory here. I think Aspiring Sorcerers have the option of buying the Warpflame Pistol if you really want another way to give your opponent Feel No Pain.

It's definitely a strange decision by GW.

Courtesy of Cephalobeard, here's the datasheet for Exalted Sorcerers. Since they have access to Chaos Rewards, you can be rocking a 3+ rerollable with a Spell Familiar.


Tzaangor datasheet. They're obviously the "Troops" board control unit. Given their cost, Rubricae really need to be seen as an Elite who aren't meant to soak up fire.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Courtesy of Cephalobeard, here's the datasheet for Exalted Sorcerers. Since they have access to Chaos Rewards, you can be rocking a 3+ rerollable with a Spell Familiar.

Spoiler:

Tzaangor datasheet. They're obviously the "Troops" board control unit. Given their cost, Rubricae really need to be seen as an Elite who aren't meant to soak up fire.

Spoiler:

Yes but you're going to paying almost 800 points for a minimum War Coven that have the new options.

Wow, a lot of swings and misses.

So the Lord of the Silver Tower ability mentions a beam coming from above...but it's not a Barrage. Fail. Can't take Sanctic, can't take Terminator Armor or a regular Bike, or a Combi-weapon to take advantage of superior BS, and is stuck with a Staff (can't take a Force Axe). Fail.

Tzaangors reroll to-hit **models** equipped with Relics. Since most of those models hide in a unit, and the ability doesn't work like Preferred Enemy (character) post-FAQ, the only way for it to work would be against characters in challenges (you're going to die) or against "solo" characters that are so powerful that they don't care that you reroll to-hit. Fail.

The Run&Charge formation is cute for them, though it seems more like it's for running 6 solo spawn or something like that.

It's not that difficult GW! People don't want to buy boring mono-pose grunts that don't get any cool options or modelling opportunities in-game. I thought you had figured that out with Genestealer Cults!

Okay what about something like this - with all mastery level upgrades and otherwise nothing else.

A War Cabal, A Tzaangor Warherd, a War Coven and then a Heldrake (because why not).

Exalted Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Rubrics
SOT
SOT
Sorcerer
3 units of Tzaangors
Heldrake
Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Sorcerer
Sorcerer

53 models, 65 wounds, 20 ML and a handful of points left for upgrades (I think that's 1815 - but not everything has been revealed yet).

Take psychic shriek on everyone (unless there is a better option based on your opponent) and you only need to roll well a couple of times to eat up elite units even with solid invulnerable saves. There are some good options in the Tzeentch discipline as well (although also some which won't help very much).

Its possible you want to ditch the coven, put two sorcerers into the War Cabal and then get another Heldrake at the cost of 4 ML.

You could also ditch the second SOT (2 ML) for a Land Raider (although I feel Land Raiders very rarely do enough damage to justify their cost although this might be a holdover from Dark Eldar thinking.) They are sort of hard to kill - but most people will pack something (grav, haywire, melta, just regular big guns etc) and you just give them something to shoot at. SOT are not an assault unit and its not immediately obvious what advantage you get from jumping into the teeth of the enemy.

So Exalted Sorcerors lose some original Chaos HQ options and force weapons but gain the ability to be artillery once per game? It looks like with available upgrades, they'll be at least 215 pts without chaos rewards or artifacts. For that kind of point cost, I might as well auto take Ahriman w/disc and get Master of Deception.

ALSO Exalted Sorcerors only get Aura of Dark glory, which, when added with Mark of Tzeentch, only gives a 4++. Sigil of Corruption is not currently a chaos reward or an artifact so these guys can't get a 3++ like a basic Tzeentch Sorceror can! Clearly Exalted Sorceors are not meant to get into the thick of things. I guess I'll have to tank some shots with the vanilla Tzeentch Sorceror

So according to the pictures of the data sheets we saw, a minimum unit of Scarabs can take both an Assault Cannon and ML at the same time.

So that just means we need an HQ with the Jump Pack relic to throw them out into the thick of it. I'm planning on fiddling with this on top of my Infiltrating Zombie list...

 Sasori wrote:
Yes, Rubrics are just too expensive to really justify, beyond the required unit in the War Cabal. I am pretty surprised that GW managed to miss this somehow, they should easily have been about 5 PPM less.

CSM pay a premium for AP3. In GW Studioland nothing is more terrifying than a CSM who denies a SM his armor save.

From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

145 points gets an unmarked Bikesorcerer with ML 3 and Familiar. 235 gets Ahriman, which is equivalent to paying 50 for 2 extra MLs, and 25 for Master of Ambush and the Black Staff.

Incidentally, I can see Biomancy Ahriman being more of a thing. If he gets Iron Arm, he can cast it on himself to be a S9 T8 Smash Jetbike, with a 3++. I don't know about you but there's something a little scary about that.

That said though, things are looking pretty underwhelming otherwise.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

145 points gets an unmarked Bikesorcerer with ML 3 and Familiar. 235 gets Ahriman, which is equivalent to paying 50 for 2 extra MLs, and 25 for Master of Ambush and the Black Staff.

Incidentally, I can see Biomancy Ahriman being more of a thing. If he gets Iron Arm, he can cast it on himself to be a S9 T8 Smash Jetbike, with a 3++. I don't know about you but there's something a little scary about that.

That said though, things are looking pretty underwhelming otherwise.

I'd say the extra attack, WS, and wound are absolutely worth it. They are at almost Lord levels of attacking at that point. The forced roll on the table sucks, but the table is less bad than before so there ya go.

Advantages and disadvantages I guess...

You're also getting access to Divination.

Apparently some people can't connect the dots too well.

Divination is nice, but if I really wanted it, I'd ally in a Herald and call it a day.

For a pure 1k-sons army, chances are you're taking the Coven anyway. You're getting the ability to reroll 1s to-hit after Manifesting. I suppose if you were feeling cheeky you could try to fish for Precognition, hope you Perils, and use the "reroll Perils" ability to attempt to fish for a 6...but otherwise, you don't get much from Prescience, and Geomortis has a better version of Perfect Timing anyway. Screen's Gaze could be useful...if Thousand Sons were a reserves army, but most of their stuff is meant to start on-table, and unfortunately Scarab Terminators have minimum unit sizes of 5.

I could see him being useful if you were trying to make a Deathstar out of other units (a Spawnstar with him could be hilarious) but he's not offering enough for the extra premium you pay.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

Well technically it's a 40 point difference; You didn't add VotLW on the regular Sorcerer, so he'd be 120 points and not 115. Exalted Sorcerers are also Fearless, which can be quite handy if he joins a non-fearless unit or runs around on his own.

I'd say +1 BS, +1W, +1I, +1A, Inferno Bolts, Coruscating Beam, access to more disciplines and Fearless is worth 40 points.

I think the points are alright, for one. The fact ahrimans formation needs 3 is just crushing. I don't think the points can be justified even at the minimum level.

What's the jury on the Sehkmet conclave?
With fleshmetal hide from heretech the scrab occult become toughness 6 2+/3++ models. That's pretty scary. If it was remotely feasible to get the re-rolls they'd be virtually immune to small arms fire and not too bothered by Ap2 either, though that's never going to happen. The discipline isn't bad either, giving you much needed anti tank and the primaris could stack with the tzeetnch malediction.

I'm not sure how it would fare on the table though. They have to stay bunched up and you can only really improve mobility of one of the units, in which case it's more than likely going to loose the buff. That would also make all of them loose the buff, so footslogging them is not really an option, nor is buying 3 land raiders. I feel like the formation isn't worth the effort. Scarab occult are like exalted sorcerers, I wouldn't mind one, maybe two, but three?

Honestly, it looks like I'll be running a fluffy army with most of the units of the new release. If I want a competitive army it looks like a lot of horrors!

I think the TS are shaping up to be the chaos version of GKs. That is, If you are not playing them for psyker and high warpcharge then it's probably not going to work well. Direct combat army these guys are not.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
From what I'm seeing, a ML 2 Sorcerer with Mark and Aura of Dark Glory is 115 points base.

That means 45 points of Sorcerer are going to an extra wound/init/bs/attack, Inferno Bolt Pistol, and a weaker Orbital Bombardment that doesn't even Barrage.

It's a big bag of nope in my book.

Well technically it's a 40 point difference; You didn't add VotLW on the regular Sorcerer, so he'd be 120 points and not 115. Exalted Sorcerers are also Fearless, which can be quite handy if he joins a non-fearless unit or runs around on his own.

I'd say +1 BS, +1W, +1I, +1A, Inferno Bolts, Coruscating Beam, access to more disciplines and Fearless is worth 40 points.

Sorcerers are usually best-joined to Spawn or Daemonkin Hounds, both which are Fearless anyway. A Tzeentch Detachment is mostly fearless otherwise anyway, barring if you take any Tzaangors, so that's also mostly points for something you don't get to use anyway.

If you're running a Tzeentch Detachment, the Sorcerers have to take VoTLW but get it for free anyway so it's still 45 points.

Inferno Bolts don't really matter since it's...one Bolt Pistol shot. Chances are your Psyker wants to Turbo after casting in most cases anyway. The Coruscating Beam is a one-shot small blast, that scatters, that doesn't ignore cover, that doesn't have Barrage, that doesn't ID T5...it's costed like a Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment while being conceivably worse in almost every way.

Another thing I didn't even mention is that the "equivalent Wargear" wasn't a fair comparison since for 10 points more, the Sorcerer can skip taking the Aura altogether and slap on some Terminator Armor instead (or get it for free in a Terminator Annihilation Force...).

 Roknar wrote:
What's the jury on the Sehkmet conclave?
With fleshmetal hide from heretech the scrab occult become toughness 6 2+/3++ models. That's pretty scary. If it was remotely feasible to get the re-rolls they'd be virtually immune to small arms fire and not too bothered by Ap2 either, though that's never going to happen. The discipline isn't bad either, giving you much needed anti tank and the primaris could stack with the tzeetnch malediction.

I'm not sure how it would fare on the table though. They have to stay bunched up and you can only really improve mobility of one of the units, in which case it's more than likely going to loose the buff. That would also make all of them loose the buff, so footslogging them is not really an option, nor is buying 3 land raiders. I feel like the formation isn't worth the effort. Scarab occult are like exalted sorcerers, I wouldn't mind one, maybe two, but three?

It's a very powerful formation, but you are looking at pretty much 1,000 points for it, without any serious upgrades. It's very hardy, but I don't believe it has the damage output to justify the points sink.

 Roknar wrote:
What's the jury on the Sehkmet conclave?
With fleshmetal hide from heretech the scrab occult become toughness 6 2+/3++ models. That's pretty scary. If it was remotely feasible to get the re-rolls they'd be virtually immune to small arms fire and not too bothered by Ap2 either, though that's never going to happen. The discipline isn't bad either, giving you much needed anti tank and the primaris could stack with the tzeetnch malediction.

I'm not sure how it would fare on the table though. They have to stay bunched up and you can only really improve mobility of one of the units, in which case it's more than likely going to loose the buff. That would also make all of them loose the buff, so footslogging them is not really an option, nor is buying 3 land raiders. I feel like the formation isn't worth the effort. Scarab occult are like exalted sorcerers, I wouldn't mind one, maybe two, but three?

It seems like a lot of terminators, is that 750 points base just for them? Assuming ML 3 and rolling twice on the Heretech table, you have a 36% chance for Fleshmetal. You have a 100% chance for Prescience from Divination if taking an Exalted Sorcerer. If trying to buff units, there is no contest there, the offensive choice is easier to get and will be generally more useful. If taking a regular sorceror, and assuming ML 3, I would likely take Psychic Shriek, and maybe take a random roll off another table for lulz.

Well getting a blessing cast on them isn't an issue since they come with a squad leader with force by default. You don't need an exalted sorcerer either. They can pick up prescience on their own.
They seem like a pretty solid choice. The problem is with the formation. You need 3 + HQ.
That's 750 + at least 60. But I doubt many people would do that. They only have powerswords and Ap3 twin bolters in that form, so they can't really do a whole lot that you couldn't also do with rubricae.
So you go and upgrade the termies with the heavy weapons, which are pretty good, but then you're approaching some 900 points already. So easily half your army is spent on three min sized scarab occult units.
And then you're still footslogging them. It doesn't really seem worth the investment for the formation. Nevermind the re-rollable saves BS.

I'd rather just take one unit with build in prescience and then round out the rest of my list as needed. Plus that one roll on divination might get them ignore cover too, making that ap3 count. Hell even foreboding isn't bad with ap3 bolters plus the assault cannon thingie.

Ok cool, the Scarab Termi Sorceror seems a lot like a regular ML 2, 2 wound sorceror packaged into the unit. I didn't catch that the first time. If Prescience can be spammed by these guys then you can go looking for other powers with your stand a lone sorcs. Do we know if Scarab sorcs can take chaos rewards or artifacts?

They can get a power sword or gift of mutation...period lol. Oddly enough that is exchanging his combi bolter for a powersword, they still have the force stave. I wouldn't say you can spam anyhting with these. They have MoT so must roll on the tzeentch table once. Aka, they don't automatically get prescience, you just get to option to switch to it every time.

Although, wasn't that faqed? I thought you can get the normal primaris as well as the chaos primaris when you roll on one non god discipline.

That only applies to Daemons though, who don't have to generate on their Gods' tables. CSMs still have to generate (meaning roll for) a power on Tzeentch, preventing you from getting Psychic Focus in another discipline.

I just picked up on a second read through that the Rubric Marines now have combi bolters so..twin linked. Won't have to use Prescience on them.

The TL is more for the ML, Cannon, and Flamer than anything.

So I did a little number crunching.

In terms of pure durability, here are the results against 200x S6 attacks. Decurion Warriors are included as a benchmark.

1st - Tzaangors with Forewarning (3++, 259pts lost)
2nd - Rubrics with Warp Fate (rerollable 3++, 284pts lost)
3rd - Decurion Warriors (4+/4+++, 361pts lost)
4th - S/O Terminators with Endurance (2+/4+++, 370pts lost)

 Bach wrote:
I just picked up on a second read through that the Rubric Marines now have combi bolters so..twin linked. Won't have to use Prescience on them.

You mean terminators and not marines, right?

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Bach wrote:
I just picked up on a second read through that the Rubric Marines now have combi bolters so..twin linked. Won't have to use Prescience on them.

You mean terminators and not marines, right?

I hope he does cause if not that changes everything. Only having to fish for ignores cover would be amazing.

It would make me "dust" off my old rubrics to run along aside the new ones as well if their shooting becomes that much more reliable. They're still pricey, but I'd be able to bite those bullets more easily to run lots of units of them. Feel like that can't be the case though.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
It would make me "dust" off my old rubrics to run along aside the new ones as well if their shooting becomes that much more reliable. They're still pricey, but I'd be able to bite those bullets more easily to run lots of units of them. Feel like that can't be the case though.

Same here since one of the formations allows you to "reroll 1s for shooting" makes no sense to give them TL and then give them a bonus that is half as good.

Pretty sure he meant Terminators.

Modelwise, the Occult Terminators are clearly wearing Combibolters, and the Rubrics are wearing a mixture of Bolters and Warpflamers(?), not Combibolters.

Yes, sorry meant the terminators. But still good, however. I'm still trying to get past the initial sticker shock of the termis knowing that there's sorceror bundled in there is looking like a HQ level unit.

Here's the other Formations compatible with TS in the new codex supplement.

- Chaos Warband (everything Obsec, roll 2x on Boon table and apply either or both)
- The Lost and the Damned (Apostle has 6" Zealot bubble to formation, destroyed Cultist units enter Reserves on a 4+)
- Helforged Warpack (If Warpsmith alive, Formation has unlimited Daemonforge. One Daemon Engine has 4++ and becomes a character)
- Heldrake Terror Pack (LD debuff increases for # of Heldrakes in 12" proximity, Vector Strike bonuses against Pinned/Falling Back/GTG units)
- Cult of Destruction (Oblits/Mutas can be conferred attack bonuses by Warpsmith)
- Fist of the Gods (6+ Invul and bonus to Repair rolls)
- Raptor Talon (Charge from DS, -2LD if charged by multiple units)
- Terminator Annihilation Force (Hatred and can conduct a shooting attack directly after DS)
- Favoured of Chaos (Possessed within 12" of DP get all 3x Mutations)

 Bach wrote:
Yes, sorry meant the terminators. But still good, however. I'm still trying to get past the initial sticker shock of the termis knowing that there's sorceror bundled in there is looking like a HQ level unit.

Really? that's the first thing I noticed about them.

Makes me think that's why people underestimate them.


Scarabs in a filled formation will be nasty as hell. if you can pull one off.


Makes me think 1ksons was never intended for a 1500-1850 game. where they shine is the 2000-2500 games, where you can get a full coven, some helpful auxiliary choice and power it up with a horror battery (who also claim home objectives pretty darn well)

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here's the other Formations compatible with TS in the new codex supplement.

- Chaos Warband (everything Obsec, roll 2x on Boon table and apply either or both)
- The Lost and the Damned (Apostle has 6" Zealot bubble to formation, destroyed Cultist units enter Reserves on a 4+)
- Helforged Warpack (If Warpsmith alive, Formation has unlimited Daemonforge. One Daemon Engine has 4++ and becomes a character)
- Heldrake Terror Pack (LD debuff increases for # of Heldrakes in 12" proximity, Vector Strike bonuses against Pinned/Falling Back/GTG units)
- Cult of Destruction (Oblits/Mutas can be conferred attack bonuses by Warpsmith)
- Fist of the Gods (6+ Invul and bonus to Repair rolls)
- Raptor Talon (Charge from DS, -2LD if charged by multiple units)
- Terminator Annihilation Force (Hatred and can conduct a shooting attack directly after DS)
- Favoured of Chaos (Possessed within 12" of DP get all 3x Mutations)

That's not the case unfortunately. Thousand Sons are limited to the WoM formations.

 Sasori wrote:
That's not the case unfortunately. Thousand Sons are limited to the WoM formations.

Are they not generic to the CSM faction?

Not sure what the complaints about those formations are. Traitor's hate is still valid. It has the renegade knight which wasn't listed in legions and it has the Black Crusade detachment, which also wasn't listed.
So any legion, including TSons, can still make a black crusade detachment and can still use the formations with their legion benefits on their own.
TSons just don't get these in a grand coven detachment or whatever their decurion is called.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
That's not the case unfortunately. Thousand Sons are limited to the WoM formations.

Are they not generic to the CSM faction?

The thousand sons has a specefic provision that you can only take from the detachments listed, and it then lists all the TKS detachments.

No ? It says any detachment can be thousand sons.
Are you thinking of the war coven?

 Sasori wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
That's not the case unfortunately. Thousand Sons are limited to the WoM formations.

Are they not generic to the CSM faction?

The thousand sons has a specefic provision that you can only take from the detachments listed, and it then lists all the TKS detachments.

Your talking about the Grand War Coven which is an FBD and can only use formations from WoM. Anything else can be used as a TS detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
That's not the case unfortunately. Thousand Sons are limited to the WoM formations.

Are they not generic to the CSM faction?

They are hes thinking of the Grand War Coven which is the TS FBD

Can scarab termies be taken in the termie traitors hate formation?

Not as far as I can tell, they seem to be a normal elite choice.

So I know the thread says currently Thousand Sons, but would this be an appropriate place to ask about Emperor's Children? I am wondering if anyone has any experience with Noise Marines. I am seeing some wicked combos involving sonic weaponry and the combat phase, as in you could lock a gun line down with pinning and ignores cover, then sweep them with an assault afterwards. Throw on the fact that they can have split fire and you can pin 2 units at the same time. Anyone know how nasty that can be?

macluvin wrote:
So I know the thread says currently Thousand Sons, but would this be an appropriate place to ask about Emperor's Children? I am wondering if anyone has any experience with Noise Marines. I am seeing some wicked combos involving sonic weaponry and the combat phase, as in you could lock a gun line down with pinning and ignores cover, then sweep them with an assault afterwards. Throw on the fact that they can have split fire and you can pin 2 units at the same time. Anyone know how nasty that can be?

Yes the OP even created a list which he needs to update.

OP hasn't replied once in his own thread.

I would just make a new post!

Incidentally, TDA Sorcerers can replace their combi-weapons with Chainfists. Maybe that's the answer to the lack of TS anti-armour?

Yoyoyo wrote:
OP hasn't replied once in his own thread.

I would just make a new post!

Incidentally, TDA Sorcerers can replace their combi-weapons with Chainfists. Maybe that's the answer to the lack of TS anti-armour?

Relying on a single model in a single unit is not much of a reliable answer.

Of course not, you'd need more than one.

Can Opener (192pts) :

Sorc w/ML3
TDA, Chainfist
Mark/VotLW/Familiar
1x Tzeentch power, 2x Heretech power

The 3x Haywires in Heretech are pretty effective at HP scrubbing, you've also got Doombolt/Devolution/Siphon which could help. Treason and Corrupt Machine seem more situational, they might be very good if you're firing with Ignores Cover Grav or Avenger Cannons.

It's no joke. The war cabal leaves so few points for antitank. Herretech is a good call!

The benefits of being psyker heavy-you can choose your powers AFTER seeing what the enemy brought to the table.

Flexibility has value.

It feels like everything without a innate Invulnerable Save is best left on the shelf when playing pure Thousand Sons, while units with a innate Invuln synergises so much that they all more or less seem fieldable.

Units best left on the shelf/without innate IV;

*Regular CSM's.
*Chosen.
*Bikers.
*Raptors.
*Havocs.

Units which synergises well with MoTz;
*Possessed.
*Terminators.
*Mutilators.
*Warp Talons.
*Obliterators.

Jury is out;
*Cultists. Doesn't really synergise with MoTz, but are still the cheapest unit we can bring. Tzaangors are +2ppm for +1WS and +1T. Time will tell what's the best fodder-unit/objective holder.

*Spawns. Also doesn't really synergise with MoTz, but spawns are, and have been for many years, very cost-effective. Either way, due to Transmogrify, any TS-player worth his...dust...should have a couple of theese.

Well, its not like the MoT is free.

If you didn't MoT these units BEFORE, little to no reason to take them for 1ksons, especially if they are the kind that don't really get blessed.

Warp talons in particular are pointless. you got so much AP3 already, that getting the talons for even more AP3 is outright absurd.
Mutilators and possessed are bad regardless of marks, the base unit is bad.
Terminators, you got scarabs. why then?
Oblits, actually carry some value. they give much neede gun verity.


As for the best fodder/objective holder for 1ksons, its without question, horrors. (just get a herald and you can spam horrors as you like. personally I prefer blues.)

I would argue terminators are more competitive than scarabs.
I agree on the rest. The ability to make them jump gives possessed and mutilators a boost, but not enough.

Oblitorators can gain a lot from blessings, so definitely a good option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spawns are coming out possibly the best option for a bodyguard to disc sorcerers.
(Tho thematic terrible, I prefer flesh hounds )

Keep in mind you've got a few psychic abilities that get you to a 3++ without an innate Invul.

Forewarning (Divination)
--> This is a no-brainer on Cultists, Tzaangors, or Spawn (3++)
--> Daemon Princes go to a 3++

TK Dome (Telekinesis)
--> Limited to a 12" radius but it's a 4++ on Marks, 3++ on VotLW units
--> 4++ on a Daemon Prince

Cursed Earth (Malefic)
--> All Daemon units to a 3++

Empyric Shield (Ectomancy)
--> Brings a DP to a 2++

Armour of Hatred (Sinistrum)
--> Limited to Witchfires but it's functionally an area 3++ with Adamantium Will as a freebie.

The bigger question is where and when it's worth fishing on these tables, especially since you can't rely on generating any single power.

Forewarning is awesome on MoN Spawn and I ALWAYS fish for that and Iron Arm.

Nobody has said much about the Daemon Princes, but that TS staff relic makes them absolute monsters.

Once you activate Force they're already on a 4++.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobody has said much about the Daemon Princes, but that TS staff relic makes them absolute monsters.

Once you activate Force they're already on a 4++.

Actually, the staff (Seer's Bane, I assume, that wounds on Leadership) is actually better on Exalted Sorcerers. They are Leadership 10, as opposed to a Prince's 9. So Sorcerers double out T5, whereas Princes don't.

Wrong relic... it is the "Staff of Arcane Compulsion".

Ah. What's that one do?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Of course not, you'd need more than one.

Can Opener (192pts) :

Sorc w/ML3
TDA, Chainfist
Mark/VotLW/Familiar
1x Tzeentch power, 2x Heretech power

The 3x Haywires in Heretech are pretty effective at HP scrubbing, you've also got Doombolt/Devolution/Siphon which could help. Treason and Corrupt Machine seem more situational, they might be very good if you're firing with Ignores Cover Grav or Avenger Cannons.

And what if you get Machine Curse and Warpmetal Armor? now your left with nothing to take out tanks except a 200 point chainfist. On that point how many of these should I take 2? 3? 4? Even in you take only 2 your just dropped 20% of a 2k army into 2 models that may not be able to do anything they are supposed to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
The benefits of being psyker heavy-you can choose your powers AFTER seeing what the enemy brought to the table.

Flexibility has value.

Flexibility has value if you can reliably put the unit out there at a reasonable cost. The problem comes when you look at the prices they are so much that having a CHANCE at getting what you NEED, is not worth it.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Spawns are coming out possibly the best option for a bodyguard to disc sorcerers.
(Tho thematic terrible, I prefer flesh hounds )

As a tau player I can safely say, the best bodyguard for disc sorcerers is none at all.

T5 is cute, but the real defense comes from being able to move out, throw your spells, than turboboost to safty of LOS blockers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ah. What's that one do?

Gives anything that charges the bearer or his unit -2 to charge, so that's -4 going through terrain unless you've got MtC and since you're an MC, there's very little reason for you not to finish your move in terrain. Also hands out +2 str ap4, so your prince is now str 8 base and also AP2 because smash. It's a pretty good deal for 10 points.

 MinscS2 wrote:
It feels like everything without a innate Invulnerable Save is best left on the shelf when playing pure Thousand Sons, while units with a innate Invuln synergises so much that they all more or less seem fieldable.

Units best left on the shelf/without innate IV;

*Regular CSM's.
*Chosen.
*Bikers.
*Raptors.
*Havocs.

Units which synergises well with MoTz;
*Possessed.
*Terminators.
*Mutilators.
*Warp Talons.
*Obliterators.

Jury is out;
*Cultists. Doesn't really synergise with MoTz, but are still the cheapest unit we can bring. Tzaangors are +2ppm for +1WS and +1T. Time will tell what's the best fodder-unit/objective holder.

*Spawns. Also doesn't really synergise with MoTz, but spawns are, and have been for many years, very cost-effective. Either way, due to Transmogrify, any TS-player worth his...dust...should have a couple of these.

On the units best left out point if you can get TK dome you can have 3 units of raptors with a 3++ against shooting, that goes for every thing else in that list, but the raptors/bikers would benefit the most from it from what I can see. In fact if you could get TK dome relibly you could have an entire army of models with 3++ saves and pay WAYYYYYYYY less then you would have to for TS and SOT

Just a point on possessed. TSons can still take Traitor's Hate formations so have access to the favoured of chaos formation. That makes possessed 3+/3++ (with blessing), jump with the artfiact and gives them all mutations. You still have to deal with the other 2 possessed units so as a whole it's still kinda meh, but that one possessed unit is pretty scary. It combines the best results from the CS possessed table with all the damage from the normal table. with no random elements involved except for terrain, for which you also have a warlord trait.

 Roknar wrote:
Not sure what the complaints about those formations are. Traitor's hate is still valid. It has the renegade knight which wasn't listed in legions and it has the Black Crusade detachment, which also wasn't listed.
So any legion, including TSons, can still make a black crusade detachment and can still use the formations with their legion benefits on their own.
TSons just don't get these in a grand coven detachment or whatever their decurion is called.

Actually from the leaks, granted they aren't verified, all of the legion detachments in traitor legions are the black crusade detachment. They may be called something different but the core and aux formations that make them up are the same ones from traitors hate exactly. I'm confused and still trying to figure it out but it seems like you take the black crusade detachment and get to add a legion specific rule on top of it.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobody has said much about the Daemon Princes, but that TS staff relic makes them absolute monsters.

Once you activate Force they're already on a 4++.

Actually, the staff (Seer's Bane, I assume, that wounds on Leadership) is actually better on Exalted Sorcerers. They are Leadership 10, as opposed to a Prince's 9. So Sorcerers double out T5, whereas Princes don't.

A prince gets +1 Ld from VotLW.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Keep in mind you've got a few psychic abilities that get you to a 3++ without an innate Invul.

Forewarning (Divination)
--> This is a no-brainer on Cultists, Tzaangors, or Spawn (3++)
--> Daemon Princes go to a 3++

TK Dome (Telekinesis)
--> Limited to a 12" radius but it's a 4++ on Marks, 3++ on VotLW units
--> 4++ on a Daemon Prince

Cursed Earth (Malefic)
--> All Daemon units to a 3++

Empyric Shield (Ectomancy)
--> Brings a DP to a 2++

Armour of Hatred (Sinistrum)
--> Limited to Witchfires but it's functionally an area 3++ with Adamantium Will as a freebie.

The bigger question is where and when it's worth fishing on these tables, especially since you can't rely on generating any single power.

Flying Circus or any Daemon heavy lists, Cursed Earth is probably worth fishing for 95% of times.

Deathstars-Forewarning

MSUs-TK Dome

Danny slag wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Not sure what the complaints about those formations are. Traitor's hate is still valid. It has the renegade knight which wasn't listed in legions and it has the Black Crusade detachment, which also wasn't listed.
So any legion, including TSons, can still make a black crusade detachment and can still use the formations with their legion benefits on their own.
TSons just don't get these in a grand coven detachment or whatever their decurion is called.

Actually from the leaks, granted they aren't verified, all of the legion detachments in traitor legions are the black crusade detachment. They may be called something different but the core and aux formations that make them up are the same ones from traitors hate exactly. I'm confused and still trying to figure it out but it seems like you take the black crusade detachment and get to add a legion specific rule on top of it.

The black crusade is a detachment consisting of a bunch of formations (like all the legion detachments). The black crusade itself is not in the traitor legion supplement. Only the new formations from that book were added.
Those formations also happen to be the same ones used in the legion detachments.

Those formations and the black crusade are generic CSM detachments, so you can apply the passive legion buffs to them.
So say you take a chaos warband and the heldrake formation. Both can be taken on their own and be given legion flavour.
But every legion also has a detachment that uses those formations so you may as well use them that way. That then unlocks the detachment benefits on top of the formation benefits.
Or you take them in a Black Crusade, same deal, only different benefits.

 Roknar wrote:

Danny slag wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
Not sure what the complaints about those formations are. Traitor's hate is still valid. It has the renegade knight which wasn't listed in legions and it has the Black Crusade detachment, which also wasn't listed.
So any legion, including TSons, can still make a black crusade detachment and can still use the formations with their legion benefits on their own.
TSons just don't get these in a grand coven detachment or whatever their decurion is called.

Actually from the leaks, granted they aren't verified, all of the legion detachments in traitor legions are the black crusade detachment. They may be called something different but the core and aux formations that make them up are the same ones from traitors hate exactly. I'm confused and still trying to figure it out but it seems like you take the black crusade detachment and get to add a legion specific rule on top of it.

The black crusade is a detachment consisting of a bunch of formations (like all the legion detachments). The black crusade itself is not in the traitor legion supplement. Only the new formations from that book were added.
Those formations also happen to be the same ones used in the legion detachments.

Those formations and the black crusade are generic CSM detachments, so you can apply the passive legion buffs to them.
So say you take a chaos warband and the heldrake formation. Both can be taken on their own and be given legion flavour.
But every legion also has a detachment that uses those formations so you may as well use them that way. That then unlocks the detachment benefits on top of the formation benefits.
Or you take them in a Black Crusade, same deal, only different benefits.

I think we might be saying essentially the same thing. Yours sounds clearer though.

The legion specific 'detachment of formations' each looks like copy pastes of the black crusade. They're basically black crusade but replacing the black crusade detachment bonus with a different bonus based on your legion. All the core and aux choices are the same as black crusade.

Pretty much yea, but those legion detachments along with the legion buffs a different cores make each legion play rather differently. FINALLY lol.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobody has said much about the Daemon Princes, but that TS staff relic makes them absolute monsters.

Once you activate Force they're already on a 4++.

Actually, the staff (Seer's Bane, I assume, that wounds on Leadership) is actually better on Exalted Sorcerers. They are Leadership 10, as opposed to a Prince's 9. So Sorcerers double out T5, whereas Princes don't.

A prince gets +1 Ld from VotLW.

its already in his profile so is considered to be counted towards the Ld9

Would a flying circus be good made from the Rahati Warsect?

You can get Magnus + 3 DPs kitted out.

The can get a 3++ with cursed earth (5++ base + 1 invul for blessing and +1 for cursed earth).

They harness on 3+ and have line of sight to everything. Doesn't sound bad to me.

Sounds great until you realise that is 1350 points plus.

Pretty much all the formations are overcosted for the meagre rules they gain.

I'll be taking a CAD for my TS.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nobody has said much about the Daemon Princes, but that TS staff relic makes them absolute monsters.

Once you activate Force they're already on a 4++.

Actually, the staff (Seer's Bane, I assume, that wounds on Leadership) is actually better on Exalted Sorcerers. They are Leadership 10, as opposed to a Prince's 9. So Sorcerers double out T5, whereas Princes don't.

A prince gets +1 Ld from VotLW.

Princes come stock with VotLW. Still only Leadership 9.

As the OP I'm still here. Just picked up WoM today and haven't had much chance to look at it yet. Preordered Traitor Legions as well, and yes, I'd like this thread to be a place to discus all the legions. I'm an old school Deathguard player, so I'll be paying particular attention to their abilities (I've seen the leaks, and hope they're true as they sound solid enough...but I'm not willing to spend a lot of time writing things up based on leaks).

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
And what if you get Machine Curse and Warpmetal Armor? now your left with nothing to take out tanks except a 200 point chainfist...

I'm quite fond of the saying "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade".

It would be wise to have contingencies in place.

If you're curious, I diced out 6x games to get an idea of how this might look in practice.

Sorc 1: Siphon Magic, Scrapcode Curse, Flayerstorm
Sorc 2: Boon of Mutation, Electromortis, Scrapcode Curse
Sorc 3: Breath of Chaos, Flayerstorm, Electromortis

Sorc 1: Siphon Magic, Flayerstorm, swap --> Corrupt Machine
Sorc 2: Treason, Electromortis, Flayerstorm
Sorc 3: Treason, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Boon of the Iron Beast

Sorc 1: Siphon Magic, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Electromortis
Sorc 2: Treason, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Scrapcode Curse
Sorc 3: Siphon Magic, Electromortis, swap --> Corrupt Machine

Sorc 1: Siphon Magic, Fleshmetal Hide, Flayerstorm
Sorc 2: Breath of Chaos, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Fleshmetal Hide
Sorc 3: Baleful Devolution, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Fleshmetal Hide

Sorc 1: Baleful Devolution, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Electromortis
Sorc 2: Baleful Devolution, Scrapcode Curse, swap --> Corrupt Machine
Sorc 3: Breath of Chaos, Electromortis, swap --> Corrupt Machine

Sorc 1: Baleful Devolution, swap --> Corrupt Machine, Flayerstorm
Sorc 2: Treason, Electromortis, Scrapcode Curse
Sorc 3: Siphon Magic, Fleshmetal Hide, Scrapcode Curse

Just a fun though about ahrima's exile if someone take it, getting 3 exhalted sorcerer's in one unit and then get the power from geokinesis that give ignore cover and line of sight and you get once per game 3 shoot str 9 ap2 everiwhere on the table without cover while behind some walls yourself, still cost a lot but just feels fun.
And about the scarab occult termenators and the cost, if you try to do the same with CSM you see :
4 terminator 126 pts + vétérans 3pts x4 (12) + mark of tzeentch 5 pts x 4 (20) 158 pts
Chaos sorcerer (60) mark of tzeentch 15 veteran (5) psyker level 2 (25) 105 pts total 263 pts
So they are cheeper than CSM termenator and get ap 3 weapon and posibilies of 2 heavy weapons + fearless and divination has bonus.
Not all options are the best to take but the points are rather good to my mind.

taetrius67 wrote:
Just a fun though about ahrima's exile if someone take it, getting 3 exhalted sorcerer's in one unit and then get the power from geokinesis that give ignore cover and line of sight and you get once per game 3 shoot str 9 ap2 everiwhere on the table without cover while behind some walls yourself, still cost a lot but just feels fun.
And about the scarab occult termenators and the cost, if you try to do the same with CSM you see :
4 terminator 126 pts + vétérans 3pts x4 (12) + mark of tzeentch 5 pts x 4 (20) 158 pts
Chaos sorcerer (60) mark of tzeentch 15 veteran (5) psyker level 2 (25) 105 pts total 263 pts
So they are cheeper than CSM termenator and get ap 3 weapon and posibilies of 2 heavy weapons + fearless and divination has bonus.
Not all options are the best to take but the points are rather good to my mind.

And now -17 points because VotLW is free.

It's more the favt that normal terminators have the option to take close combat weapons other than power swords and force staves. The idea of a 250pt unit that can barely hurt 2+ armour units or vehicles is hard to stomach.

Forgefiend maybe?

Not cheap but it's got good capabilities in terms of AP2 and AV shooting.

It also gives you a good target for Heretech blessings, so they're not wasted. Splitfiring and AV13 in particular.

The lack of cc options for termies is the only thing bugging me about this release.

I can handle the rest and look forward to flinging spells and summoning 2-3 units of pink horrors.

I see that all the traitor legions have to max out units to get access formation rules like 1k sons.

Are there any armies of the imperium that have that stip with their formations?

I can't figure out what they were thinking with the warpflamers after seeing the codex. At 7ppm they reduce your damage output (ap3 to ap4) and also have a chance to give the enemy FNP. Plus, they can't be used on overwatch due to rubric marines having slow and purposeful. Even if free I wouldn't take then.

If you're that concerned about 2+, roll on Biomancy with your second roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
I can't figure out what they were thinking with the warpflamers after seeing the codex. At 7ppm they reduce your damage output (ap3 to ap4) and also have a chance to give the enemy FNP. Plus, they can't be used on overwatch due to rubric marines having slow and purposeful. Even if free I wouldn't take then.

To be fair they only reduce your damage output if you're hitting only one model. Once you're hitting 2-3 it more evens out.

That said, I'd say they were only worth it of they were allowed overwatch with it and that's not possible without the one artifact.

Rubricae are very good units to catch premiere multiwound melee like TWC, Wraiths, and MCs.

I think this is their best use... there's not many units that have easy access to a 3++, Fearless, VotLW, and a Force Weapon without committing a HQ.

They aren't points-efficient as far as shooting goes. Scarab Terminators are nearly as dangerous (7 versus 9 bolter hits) while being twice as survivable, and their ML2 Sorcerer is cheaper on a points per-wound basis.

Rubricae cannot be the spearhead without psychic support, which makes them a poor platform for a flamer weapon. That's the bigger issue than anything else.

No, the problem is that the flamers are REALLY bad to begin with.

As in, debatfully a downgrade level of bad.

IF they were a free sidegrade, there would be a point considering them. IF they were a 7 point upgrade for a regualr marine unit with regular bolters, then there would be a point.

But compared to an AP3 bolter? its an upgrade as often if not more than its a downgrade, and rubrics cant even overwatch so you lose the anti-assault aspect of the flamers.

Warpflamers take the medal when it comes to "why would I even bother" options, and given that's its on a unit that is hard to justify to begin with, that's amazing.



As much as I love 1ksons, and I'm even getting a 1ksons army due to this release, rubrics are trash. even with the grand coven they are borderline playable for casual play.

Yeah that Warpflamer is a damn trap.

A regular flamer is 5 points, not 7.

A regular flamer can be overwatched with.

A regular flamer doesn't replace a AP3 bolter! (This alone should make it a free option.)

A regular flamer doesn't usually give the target Feel No Pain.

Honestly, I wouldn't even take the Warpflamer is it was free, except maybe, *maybe* on a single min-size Rubric unit.

I think GW's thoughtprocess when they priced the Warpflamer is "a regular flamer is AP5 and costs 5 points, so the Warpflamer should cost slightly more since it's AP4. Set it at 7 ppm", and then totally forgot (or didn't care/think about) all the drawbacks that comes with the Warpflamer...

But now you might think "oho, but the Warpflamer should cost alot because Thousand Sons are a small elite army who will have trouble dealing with the flamers intended target; hordes."
Well, not necessarily. With all the decent anti-GEQ psychic powers a TS army has at it's disposal (Tzeentch Firestorm, a Primaris, is really effing good vs GEQ's), there's also nothing stopping the TS-player from adding other anti-horde elements from the CSM army, such as Helbrutes with Heavy Flamers, Predators, putting cheap Havoc Launchers on the Rhinos, etc.

Thousand Sons - Overview and Army Building

I have a few people excited by this in my area, including myself, so I'm trying to organise my thoughts. You can find reviews of the rules and formations elsewhere, I'm sure, so this is more a stream of consciousness. Firstly - not top tier in the slightest, but a decent mid table army with cool funky stuff, which for most CSM players is a massive leg up from where we were.

What Are Thousand Sons Good At?


What Are Thousand Sons Bad At?


The Psychic Power Conundrum


Lores To Consider:


Covering the Gaps

Formations

TL/DR: Take allies to cover inherent weakenesses in an elite, survivable army. Try to strike a balance between buffs and mind bullets.

By the way, are we sure that Blessing of Tzeench means Blessing psy power. Or does it mean Blessing of Tzeench?

Here you go kooaei. It's a detachment bonus.

Yeah, probably they did mean blessing psy power. Seems not so great - especially for the overpriced rubrics.

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, probably they did mean blessing psy power. Seems not so great - especially for the overpriced rubrics.

What's bad about it? You get a free +1 invul when using a blessing. It's probably the best rule we have recieved in WoM.

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, probably they did mean blessing psy power. Seems not so great - especially for the overpriced rubrics.

Does it not mean any blessing?

Ericthegreen wrote:
Thousand Sons - Overview and Army Building

I have a few people excited by this in my area, including myself, so I'm trying to organise my thoughts. You can find reviews of the rules and formations elsewhere, I'm sure, so this is more a stream of consciousness. Firstly - not top tier in the slightest, but a decent mid table army with cool funky stuff, which for most CSM players is a massive leg up from where we were.

What Are Thousand Sons Good At?

Spoiler:

- highly survivable against low AP firepower. 4++ as standard, 3++ when under the effect of a blessing
- AP3 guns. In a game dominated by majority 3+ armour saves, the sons have a leg up in taking down these types of units much quicker. Cover saves aren't always plentiful, and even if they are, they're a worse save than the one you're negating.
- Psychics. Big warp charge pools and multiple psykers with access to a lot of good lores.

Summary
They don't die much. they kill heavy infantry and they have access to mind bullets to cover weaknesses and buffs to become more effective. Finding the balance between mind bullets and buffs seems to be the key to making the army relatively effective.

What Are Thousand Sons Bad At?

Spoiler:

- surviving against high volumes of firepower. You will fail saves eventually.
- killing tanks. The standard armoury contains 1 S5 rending gun and 1 S8 gun, with no access to powerfists, chainfists or grenades. Killing tanks will be done either by your supporting units or through the aforementioned mind bullets.
- Mobility/killing hordes - mentioned here because while there are flamers aplenty in the arsenal, Sons are not mobile enough to get in positions to use them effectively and have no overwatch capability.
- Combat. We suck in combat. Even our combaty unit has AP3 as standard so while Sons survive well against units hitting with AP2, they are so pillow fisted in return
- Numbers. While Sons are survivable, they are expensive, especially with the number of sorcerors needed just to run some of the core formations, which also provide the psychic power. Every loss hurts.

Summary
Through allies, wargear, other CSM codex choices or through psychic powers, a Thousand Sons army needs to add tank killing, AP2, extraction from close combat and the ability to get to objectives.

The Psychic Power Conundrum

Spoiler:

Thousand Sons have a lot of psychic juice, and the army really relies on its psychic to cover its gaps and pull it through games. When psychic power generation is random, this brings an inherent risk. Likewise, there are some great anti horde and anti tank powers out there, but the core mechanic for survivability requires blessings. This presents us with the psychic conundrum - what is the best balance between fishing for blessings and mind bullets, and how reliable can we make it?

Firstly, on blessings: Every blessing comes with the bonus of +1 to your Thousand Son Invulnerable save. There are 2 powers out that that give +1 to invuns and they are both warp charge 1, so while it may seem like a waste of dice to cast Force for your invun boost, it's perfectly viable. However, with so many psychic dice, buffing your Sons to horrendous levels is a perfectly legit strategy.

Lores To Consider:

Spoiler:

Biomancy - while there are 3 blessings in the lore, only 1 of them affects a unit. Solo disc sorcerors or Scarab cult leaders can make great use of them both though and the icing on the cake is Endurance, making Scarab cult in particular horrendous to get rid of

Divination - The money maker for most armies. The primaris is a blessing, so you are guaranteed access. It's also a damn useful blessing for an army with small but high quality firepower. There are also 3 other unit based blessings in the lore (the chance of getting Forewarning is a great reason to include Tzaangors, who suddenly become quite durable), including Perfect Timing, which is a killer when you're packing AP3 bolters. Divination has to be a go to pick for your blessing options

Telepathy - Invisibility is god mode as most 40k players know. But outside of that and the primaris, the blessings are unnecesary (your invun will likely be better than your cover save and you are fearless already). Telepathy can be strongly considered because Psychic Shriek deals with monstrous creatures and AP2 very well, especially now it no longer requires a to hit roll but outside of that, Telepathy is subpar unless you're trying to do an invisibile Scarab deathstar, which doesn't stand up to other invisible type death stars out there.

Sinistrum - Like Telepathy, there's a doozy of a blessing in Warp Fate, a psyker only blessing which, like Biomancy, is useufll for Scarab leaders and disc sorcerors and Death Hex for dealing with other Death Stars. On the level of Telepathy in that you can risk a cheeky roll.

Tzeentch - Tzeentch is a tricky one. For your big psykers - the ML3s, Ahriman and Magnus, the mere presence of Siphon makes the lore worth a look. Despite 2 dud powers, if you want mind bullets, going all in on lore of tzeentch is not a bad shout. You have a great tankbuster in doombolt. You also have AP2 on 2 of the witchfires to cover some bases. The powers are expensive though, which is why it's a bit all or nothing - it really needs to pull siphon to work.

Summary:
If you're going for Scarabstar, with a sorceror with the movement relic, another with the AP2 staff, going all in on telepathy or sinistrum to pull invisibility or Warp Fate is worth a look. Otherwise, I think after taking your mandatory rolls on Tzeentch, commiting everything on Divination will give you the most reliable results for overall army effectiveness.

A note on Ahriman. Ahriman is a special case. His rules are designed to throw witchfires, so using him as a buffbot when you can get cheaper ML3 psykers elsewhere is a waste. 3 rolls on Tzeentch gives him a decent shot at Siphon. If you have what you need after that, he can always take a cheeky Psychic Shriek. Ahriman's key benefit, though, is getting his slow moving rubrics into midfield where they are best suited. By taking him you are commiting to more mind bullets than blessings, but the additional pre battle mobility cannot be discounted.

Covering the Gaps

Spoiler:

CSM:
obliterators and forgefiends are solid picks for anti tank. A Tzeentch Lord on a disc with sigil of corruption, power fist and lighting claw can give you a fast beater element, though similar results can be achieved with an exalted sorceror with the relic staff. likewise a demon prince.

Demons:
My preferred choice. horrors provide warp charge and a backfield objective sitter, flamers provide *some* anti horde capability and screamers provide a fast combat and anti tank element. What's nice about screamers here is that committing to divination for your thousand sons blessings also gives you a good shot at pulling forewarning (which is otherwise useless for sons without tzaangors). The new loci from WoM giving them either IWND or protecting them with dice shenanigans is a nice bonus too.

Both of these options stay in theme, but bring a level of flexibility to an otherwise rigid army.

Formations

Spoiler:

Having looked at the formations, there's some great options to slot into other armies, but in order to take Thousand Sons, you're running the War Cabal. The Favoured of Tzeentch rule requires too much of a points investment (1350 minimum) to go after and requires you to spread the buffs around quite a bit, while also relying on mind bullets for your anti tank. However the core formation benefit of rerolling 1s to hit after successfully manifesting a psychic power combines the blessings and mind bullets combo quite nicely.If you didn't want to overcommit on your sorcerors (like taking just Ahriman or just 1 exalted), running a CAD might be more beneficial, especially since obsec is such an important rule.

Overall I think finding the balance between units and psychic powers is what makes the Thousand Sons fun, but also makes them a little boom or bust.

TL/DR: Take allies to cover inherent weakenesses in an elite, survivable army. Try to strike a balance between buffs and mind bullets.

really good stuff here. If I was not at work I would add in. Quick question. what are mind bullets?

Colloquial term for witchfires

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, probably they did mean blessing psy power. Seems not so great - especially for the overpriced rubrics.

What's bad about it? You get a free +1 invul when using a blessing. It's probably the best rule we have recieved in WoM.

Personally i've first got an impression that they simplyget +1 to inv. Which seems more appropriate to me. They become 3+/3++. A tiny bit more reasonable for such a price. 5++ cultists and marines. Back to the old MoT that used to add 5++ if there'sno inv in the first place. But nope. That's why i feel a bit disappointed. Well, on the other hand it's gona be easier to chop em down with my powerklaws.

Honestly, I think it barely matters.

You need blessings like Invis and Warp Fate, or Rubrics won't be survivable enough. Versus 200x Scatterlasers:

Invis -- 212pts lost
Warp Fate -- 284pts lost
Decurion Warriors -- 361pts lost
Endurance -- 426pts lost
2+ Cover -- 426pts lost
Unsupported -- 852pts lost

Rubrics themselves can be made decently durable. But that's at 23ppm. Don't forget you're paying 40pts for a Force Weapon and 1ML on the Sgt.

 koooaei wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, probably they did mean blessing psy power. Seems not so great - especially for the overpriced rubrics.

What's bad about it? You get a free +1 invul when using a blessing. It's probably the best rule we have recieved in WoM.

Personally i've first got an impression that they simplyget +1 to inv. Which seems more appropriate to me. They become 3+/3++. A tiny bit more reasonable for such a price. 5++ cultists and marines. Back to the old MoT that used to add 5++ if there'sno inv in the first place. But nope. That's why i feel a bit disappointed. Well, on the other hand it's gona be easier to chop em down with my powerklaws.

Yes, a TS army should stay away from units with no innate invulnerable. Paying alot of point for a 6++, occasionally a 5++ isn't great.

However, a 3+/3++ (Rubrics, Warp Talons, Possessed) or 2+/3++ (Terminators/Occult Terminators/Obliterators/Mutilators) is nothing to scoff at, especially if you re-roll 1's on saves.

I'd love for MoT to be as it was in 4th Ed, where it gave a 5++.
Having basic CSM's/Raptors/Chosen/Bikers/Havocs with a possible 4++ would be both fun due to added variety, and make the list slightly more competetive. Perhaps MoT will give a 5++ by default in our next codex? One can only hope.

With that said, a list without basic CSM's/Chosen/Raptors/Bikers/Havocs at least adheres to the legions fluff.

Ericthegreen wrote:
Thousand Sons - Overview and Army Building

I have a few people excited by this in my area, including myself, so I'm trying to organise my thoughts. You can find reviews of the rules and formations elsewhere, I'm sure, so this is more a stream of consciousness. Firstly - not top tier in the slightest, but a decent mid table army with cool funky stuff, which for most CSM players is a massive leg up from where we were.

Do you mind if I quote this in the OP?

Go right ahead. I'm sure it doesnt cover everything that can be done with the book.

On that note, I am stuck with Ahriman or exalted sorcerer and war cabal or CAD.

Right now I'm only taking Ahriman for the warlord trait I think as I'm Focusing on buffs not witchfires.

What are other people's thoughts?

Invis is still the most important survivability buff. Rubrics should be sitting in 4+ cover with Shrouding, Terminators benefit from Warp Fate and Endurance, Tzaangors from almost anything, and Cultists everything but Endurance. There's lots of synergies here. I did a little analysis, but this is obviously the tip of the iceberg.

--> Rubric Marines

--> Occult Terminators

--> Tzaangors

--> Marked Cultists

So just a couple of lists that I muddled about with for the new Tsons. Every time I put units down on paper I choked at how fast my points dissapeared and I always came back to the same conclusion, 'How does it deal with AV?'.
Unfortunately it really doesn't very well, you need good rolls on your powers and to get into melee so you can hit them with your fancy Force Staves. I think these lists might have a bit of punch for Garage Hammer though.
These points values are rough since I don't have the books myself and so went off of information from the internet and educated guesswork

First up a CAD to tak advantage of Obsec Rubrics and Tzaangors


Next a list using the Tsons Decurion with War Cabal and Brayherd


Are they competetive? Almost certainly not, but its a couple of ways to make psychic heavy Thousand Sons lists with some deployment tricks and Tzeentch flavoured underlings.

Edit: Fixed the points costs on Havoc Launchers and the Scarab Termies Soulreaper Cannons, fething things are 30pts?!
Edit2: Found the full posting over at Atia's blog: https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1469 and the Astral Grimoire is 30pts rather than 25.

Ericthegreen wrote:
Go right ahead. I'm sure it doesnt cover everything that can be done with the book.

On that note, I am stuck with Ahriman or exalted sorcerer and war cabal or CAD.

Right now I'm only taking Ahriman for the warlord trait I think as I'm Focusing on buffs not witchfires.

What are other people's thoughts?

Same deal. I keep trying to work Ahriman in simply for the WL trait. With disk it eats up points quick especially if I want to add in 2 other level 3 exalted sorcerers at 1500.

I am starting to think I might have to forgo the warherd and stick with horrors to add in more infantry.

I have not put it to paper and all the lists have been a quick adding up of points on the phone. Most of my lists fell into 1500 to 2000 which my group usually caps at though lately we have been doing 1250.

I really like Baleful Devolution and when those 6s turn up it will put a nice fly in the ointment. Plus of you go with warherd you can add in cheap chaos spawn for fluffy flavor.

But yeah I want to work in Ahriman, it's a tough balance on 2 or 3 exalted sorcerers ml2 or 3, to disk or not to disk.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are thoughts on icons of flame? It's 60 points to equip 4 units with Soul blaze. Could be feast or famine.

Also if you took a vindicators squad of three and equipped them with warpflame gargoyles the apocalypse blast might have lingering effects.

Worth it or not I spend the points in the hope said unit takes a wound or 2 to flames. Wish Soul blaze had a bit more kick but used army wide your chances of getting positive results increases.

I believe a TS list should start with the following daemon allied force from WoM.:

Lorestealer's host - The blue scribes, 3x11 blue horrors.
Heralds anarchic - 3 x ML1 heralds of tzeentch.

The above units actually make a pandaemoniad decurion. You get 4++ saves instead of rerolling 1's. You also get 12 warp charges, your blue scribes shenaneninanigans (fuuuuuu!), 3 units to hold backfield objectives with decent defense (4++ and splitting into new units on death) and it only costs 381 pts.

Then comes the other end of the stick, how to put those charges to good use. With access to 10 disciplines, CSM sorcerers are actually quite equipped to face off most threats. The obvious warp charge sink would be Magnus. He has an incredible damage output potential. Magnus actually has two str D powers, not one. He also has 2 strong beams in doombolt and bolt of change, and treason of tzeentch can be terrifying against terrifying opponents. If he needs to, he also has 4d6 str 5 ap4 shots with a BS of 7 and Infernal gateway can double as a somehow decent anti tank (low scatter chance). Baleful devolution can snipe characters and Boon of mutation can turn him into a spawn! The damage potential of Magnus cannot be denied and with flying he can position himself into critical places.

The second most obvious warp charge outlet is Ahriman. He can multicast witchfires, and there are two pretty handy ones he can grab by virtue of them being primaris powers. Ahriman can move 12" on his disc, triple psychic scream enemy units and then run back to safety. Ahriman can choose ectomancy primaris and unleash 18 str 5 ap4 shots at BS 5. In a war coven he can even get reroll on his to hit rolls. In an Ahriman's exile formation he can harness on a 3+. Other than the big two, you can have any sorcerer with an -on demand- psychic shriek or warpshock. With any formation that gives 3+ to harness (or Magnus) and the addition of spell familiars, TS can have the longest psychic phase ever known to man by one dicing all the secondary spells before they move on to the big ones.

The other aspect of TS is to utilize blessings to improve one's survivability. Some tricks right off the bat. Force is a blessing and targets the whole unit. And everybody knows it. Magnus knows 3 blessings, with the most important of all being Siphon Magic. A Daemon Prince can achieve immortality by casting an Empyric shield on itself (2++ rerollable). Favoured of Tzeentch special rule is very difficult to achieve but it does make your scarab occults immune to non ap2 damage (which is their biggest bane). In a grand coven TS can reroll the warlord trait, and there are some nice ones in there, like getting EW on your warlord.

So after getting our infinite psychic phase, there are still problems that need our attention. First and foremost, as people said, there is not enough anti AV in the book. Heretech can get the job done but it's fickle, and melee is out of the question. Choices include las predators (in units of 3 to also get tank hunters), obliterators and the Lord of the Silver tower ability of the exalted sorcerers. Oblits get a nice deal by getting votlw for free (and horus knows they need it) and compliment the elite and durable aspect of the list. Las/auto predators are cheap, and if you take a unit of three you should be more or less guaranteed a tank kill per turn. Finally, Lord of the silver tower should not be underestimated, especially when spammed. With BS 5, a blast isn't going to scatter much, so there are very good chances to land your lance lascannon shot on an enemy vehicle.

Next problem comes with unit cost and options. TS are expensive. That's why I suggested the daemon allied force in the beginning. With only 380 pts you get 3 x 12 units of 4++ daemons. These can hold backfield objectives for a cheap price, while they let you focus on your more expensive stuff. Sorcerers on discs and rubric units jumping onto objectives with the Astral Grimoire can claim the forward objectives, and Daemon Princes with Empyric Shield can just jump right into the fray because they just can't die.Still, this is going to be an elite army. You can mitigate that a while with the tzaangor formation. While tzaangor looks weak, the formation gives it multiple bonuses. First it gets fleet and it may run and charge. This makes the tzaangors much much faster, as you can apply fleet rerolls to both run and charge rolls. Secondly, fleet makes rolling "9+" for the charge roll that much more likely, which turns tzaangors into armorless space marines for the hth phase. What's more, exalted sorcs can join tzaangor units, make them fearless and actually perform pretty good in hth. Oh and if you go down that road, pick seer's bane, it's really really strong.

What I want to know is whether a very wierd kind of deathstar is available. Put 7-8 sorcerers in a fat unit of cultists! Use the astral grimoire to fly them around, cast ALL the buffs (invisibility, shrouded, telekinetic dome etc). Use ectomancy spells to keep running around and casting spells,or get out of combat. Or use biomancy/ divination and seer's bane / black mace and just charge stuff because invisibility is still unfair. The question is, would having 25+ warp charges, tons of spells known and the ability to harness on a 3+ rerollable give you enough edge to make a deathstar of cultists work?

Hey, so I'm thinking of running something like this to start off - thankfully my meta isn't super hardcore but I figured I should ask for second opinion(s) all the same. Basically the Sorcerers are going to be doing 90% of the heavy lifting for this army - really the Rubricae are just there as ablative wounds and for the sake of fluff. My biggest concern is mobility - obviously this can be countered somewhat via the Astral Grimoire, as well as through psychic powers like Levitation and Ghost Storm, but it's definitely a problem considering the random nature of psychic powers. In any case, I figure the best way to go in most cases is going to be to run Athanaeans so you're harnessing warp charges for Telepathy powers on a 3+ and then go crazy with Psychic Shriek or else run Heretech if the enemy army is vehicle heavy. The Exalted Sorcerers in the War Cabal will run Divination (hoping for Perfect Timing) along with the Scarab Occult Sorcerer, all of whom will be with the Terminators. I'm thinking as well, in terms of anti-vehicle, it's reasonably likely that at least one of the Sorcerers in the army is going to roll Treason of Tzeentch, since we're talking a total 9 rolls (appropriately enough) on the Tzeentch table. It's not a hard and fast solution, but it might well prove useful. Anyway...

Thousand Sons - 1850 Points

Detachment: Thousand Sons Grand Coven

Core Formation: War Cabal

HQ - 500 points

Exalted Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 3)
+Disc of Tzeentch
+Seer's Bane
Total: 255 points

Exalted Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 3)
+Disc of Tzeentch
+Astral Grimoire
Total: 245 points

Troops - 580 points

Rubric Marines x 10
+Soulreaper Cannon
Total: 290 points

Rubric Marines x 10
+Soulreaper Cannon
Total: 290 points

Elites - 300 points

Scarab Occult Terminators x 5
+Soulreaper Cannon
+Hellfyre Missile Rack
Total: 300 points

Auxiliary Formation: War Coven

HQ - 460 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

List Total: 1840 points

Arnemen wrote:
So just a couple of lists that I muddled about with for the new Tsons. Every time I put units down on paper I choked at how fast my points dissapeared and I always came back to the same conclusion, 'How does it deal with AV?'.

Technomancy. Btw, havok launchers cost 12 - not 15.

I also don't think that 10 tsons in a rhino are gona serve you well. They cost like a bunch of decked up wuffen. I'd run with min squads if you do have to field them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChaosReigns999 wrote:

Rubric Marines
+5 Rubric Marines
+Soulreaper Cannon

Iirc correctly, soulreapers are 1 per 10 for rubrics. So, you're gona save points on it there ;D

Sorry, that is 10 Rubrics. It was meant to be the base unit size plus five, but I changed it so it's easier to read.

Challenge- Least points wasteful detachment/formation incorporating a TS character who can take relics?
Allied detachment looks like it isn't an option if there's a chaos warlord regardless of legion.
Nuts to taking 2 units of tzeentch cultists.