gungo wrote:15pt plasma guns on 3+ bs models.... that should cut down spam
Actually i think winters SEO mixed up plasma cannons and plasma guns.
At 3:10 he says "plasma gun was 15 points ..." the plasma gun was never 15 points it´s the plasma cannon that was 15 points.
Then he says it´s 13pts on a 3+ and 7pts on a 4+ model. If veterans, which can´t DS, also have to pay 13pts they are even more dead as they are now.
If 13pts is only for tempestus that would at least adress only DS-units. Either 13pts is the premium space marine tag.
At least they fixed most other units in the codex, so we could give other ways a go.
B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
Mostly the changes to units don't seem crazy to me. Obviously Russes needed a lot of help. I've not run into many of the super-heavies but I can believe that they needed something, though they got a huge buff so I'm a little worried. Basilisks were good but overshadowed by Manticores.
Meanwhile Scion plasma drops got nerfed significantly. HWTs went up to 6, which means that mortar squads are probably still a no-brainer slot filler with really efficient firepower, but it's clearly a move in the right direction. Probably some other things should have seen bigger/any nerfs, such as Conscripts, Primaris Psykers, and Astropaths.
My big worries here are the infantry and special rules. Guard infantry was already really good and it just got a lot better. Granted, actually relatively few of the doctrines straightforwardly make gunline infantry more shooty or more durable -- mostly they help with playstyles that weren't optimal before -- but there are a lot of nice buffs here. And then a lot of the doctrines are huge for already-strong armies involving lots of long-range artillery, though really the doctrines are generally less impressive than Chapter Tactics and Legion Traits.
And everything except the doctrines and unit changes seems pretty crazy. You can take the (excellent) Ultramarines warlord trait on any Guard warlord. There's a relic that also gives you extra CP when your opponent uses a stratagem. Another lets an officer issue a second order to the same unit on a 4+. There are several stratagems worth using every turn, including one that gives Guard a huge advantage over Chaos armies in particular.
There's just very little here that looks bad, and a lot of things that look very strong. It won't be at all surprising if combinations of these turn out to be way too good.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.
In some ways, that might be the problem. From the hardcore tournament perspective, AM tanks might've seemed in need of some upgrades compared to the Guilliman parking lots or Magnus-Daemon lists they ran up against. But those guys probably never even bothered to test it against a footslogging Khorne Daemons list, an average non-Commander-Spam Tau list or something along those lines.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.
The indexes were not too bad, and with an update at Christmas given known results could have become even more balanced.
Unfortunately this is an Eldar Release. Take the best codex by a considerable distance (soups have been better - but that is another issue) give it a couple of token nerfs and then hand out a host of buffs.
Its just stupid. I had thought GW were looking at the game as a game again but that seems to have been missed this time.
I'm seeing two potential FAQ situations in the video review for Militarum Tempestus.
1) The Medi-Pack and Voxcaster is once again swapping the Hotshot Lasgun for a Hotshot Laspistol. They FAQ this in 7th IG/MT Codexes and the 8th Index to allow you to keep the Hotshot Lasgun. Have they seriously repeated this mistake for a fourth time?
2) Militarum Tempestus states that you only get their doctrine if all units in the detachment are MT units (it doesn't mention just regiment keywords). Immediately below it, the Advisors/Auxiliaries sections states those units don't prevent the rest of the detachment from gaining regiment doctrines. So which of these contradicting rules takes priority over the other as if you includes Advisors/Auxiliaries you no longer have all MT units in your detachment?
2) Militarum Tempestus states that you only get their doctrine if all units in the detachment are MT units (it doesn't mention just regiment keywords). Immediately below it, the Advisors/Auxiliaries sections states those units don't prevent the rest of the detachment from gaining regiment doctrines. So which of these contradicting rules takes priority over the other as if you includes Advisors/Auxiliaries you no longer have all MT units in your detachment?
I don't think there's a contradiction here. The regular regiment rules also say every unit has to be from the same regiment, with a parenthetical aside giving you a heads up about the later "Advisors and Auxilla" rules. I don't see that this aside is itself doing much, rules-wise; obviously "Advisors and Auxilla" would still work without it. And so surely it also works with the Militarum Tempestus.
What the MT rules are saying is that you can put Scions in a Cadian detachment and the Cadians still get their doctrine, but the Scions don't. You only get the Scion doctrine if they're the only regiment in the detachment. Whether it's a Cadian or a Scion detachment, you can include Commissars and the like without giving up your doctrine.
2) Militarum Tempestus states that you only get their doctrine if all units in the detachment are MT units (it doesn't mention just regiment keywords). Immediately below it, the Advisors/Auxiliaries sections states those units don't prevent the rest of the detachment from gaining regiment doctrines. So which of these contradicting rules takes priority over the other as if you includes Advisors/Auxiliaries you no longer have all MT units in your detachment?
I don't think there's a contradiction here. The regular regiment rules also say every unit has to be from the same regiment, with a parenthetical aside giving you a heads up about the later "Advisors and Auxilla" rules. I don't see that this aside is itself doing much, rules-wise; obviously "Advisors and Auxilla" would still work without it. And so surely it also works with the Militarum Tempestus.
What the MT rules are saying is that you can put Scions in a Cadian detachment and the Cadians still get their doctrine, but the Scions don't. You only get the Scion doctrine if they're the only regiment in the detachment. Whether it's a Cadian or a Scion detachment, you can include Commissars and the like without giving up your doctrine.
Sweet. That means I can start planning some conversions and units to add more diversity to my MT force. Thanks.
From the way so many people are crying, you'd think everything in the Index was broken... as opposed to it just being Conscripts and plasma Scions (and plasma is good on everything this edition anyway). And THAT's only so obnoxiously broken because of Imperial Soup lists with Gulliman, but you don't see Space Marine players crying for a nerf to him.
Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
These books have been printed about six months ago (hardcover), playtesting feedback afterwards will be released with Chapter Approved in December (including Apocalypse rules etc). I think this is a reasonable way to fix issues with army rules and the new AM book is not worth a drama. There are still about 15 books to come out, and we should see how strong these are to have the full picture. Everything can quite easily be changed to be better with future Chapter Approved releases.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.
marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.
In some ways, that might be the problem. From the hardcore tournament perspective, AM tanks might've seemed in need of some upgrades compared to the Guilliman parking lots or Magnus-Daemon lists they ran up against. But those guys probably never even bothered to test it against a footslogging Khorne Daemons list, an average non-Commander-Spam Tau list or something along those lines.
It doesn't help that Reece is super biased against Tau it's insane and a meme in the community at this point. Imagine who else on the "professional" balancing team at frontline or the other sites who helped messed up balance for others. 8th edition is turning into a bigger sham than 7th.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
Well, I believe the ASSUMPTION was, that playtesting by ITC/Frontline Gaming & Co. would make it more balanced, as they claimed for decades they could do better. Apparently they're finding it's not as easy as they assumed pre-8th Edition with post-publication hindsight watching in from the outside.
In some ways, that might be the problem. From the hardcore tournament perspective, AM tanks might've seemed in need of some upgrades compared to the Guilliman parking lots or Magnus-Daemon lists they ran up against. But those guys probably never even bothered to test it against a footslogging Khorne Daemons list, an average non-Commander-Spam Tau list or something along those lines.
It doesn't help that Reece is super biased against Tau it's insane and a meme in the community at this point. Imagine who else on the "professional" balancing team at frontline or the other sites who helped messed up balance for others. 8th edition is turning into a bigger sham than 7th.
and Frankie is very pro tau and flg wasn't the only teams playtesting. They are just the most visible.
He is kinda... but he also complained about tons of Tau stuff though and thought lots was way too strong. The obvious stuff like riptide wing and storm surge sure. But I've also seen him complain about how strong the Tau were in general without them iirc. We all know how that turned out to not be true.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.
marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.
Plenty of marines do deepstrike, they've got transports up the wazoo, and scions are already paying for their ability to deepstrike. They cost 3 points more than veterans, and for that they get +1 armor save and deep strike.
I was personally hoping that the grav chutes would be separated (like on reivers) as an upgrade so we didn't have to take the things on every scion unit. Having deep strike standard is annoying when I have all these shiny taurox primes. Nobody ever rides in the damn things. Let me get a discount to ride in my truck and I would.
Arbitrator wrote: From the way so many people are crying, you'd think everything in the Index was broken... as opposed to it just being Conscripts and plasma Scions (and plasma is good on everything this edition anyway). And THAT's only so obnoxiously broken because of Imperial Soup lists with Gulliman, but you don't see Space Marine players crying for a nerf to him.
Uh... Yeah you do. No idea where that meme comes from; other than Guard units, Guilliman easily sees the most complaints from players, with Aetaos'rau'keres and Magnus following a reasonable distance behind.
Gamgee wrote: He is kinda... but he also complained about tons of Tau stuff though and thought lots was way too strong. The obvious stuff like riptide wing and storm surge sure. But I've also seen him complain about how strong the Tau were in general without them iirc. We all know how that turned out to not be true.
that's not true commander spam is top tier. And you conveniently ignored how Reece was like orks are the best army and overpowered in all his 8th ed videos and than the truth is they suck and are mid tier at best.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.
marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.
Plenty of marines do deepstrike, they've got transports up the wazoo, and scions are already paying for their ability to deepstrike. They cost 3 points more than veterans, and for that they get +1 armor save and deep strike.
I was personally hoping that the grav chutes would be separated (like on reivers) as an upgrade so we didn't have to take the things on every scion unit. Having deep strike standard is annoying when I have all these shiny taurox primes. Nobody ever rides in the damn things. Let me get a discount to ride in my truck and I would.
marines that deepstrike cost significantly more than scions and those transports are still grossly overpriced hence why you don't see drop pods at all any more. In fact you keep seein scions in marine lists which you continue to ignore. Scions are the best plasma gun unit by far it's not even debateable as it's just spammed in tournaments. The fact thier doctrine helps plasmaguns more just makes scion command squads better Then before. And the fact that they are currently making different points for weapons per unit shows that are cognizant of this fact.
Arbitrator wrote: From the way so many people are crying, you'd think everything in the Index was broken... as opposed to it just being Conscripts and plasma Scions (and plasma is good on everything this edition anyway). And THAT's only so obnoxiously broken because of Imperial Soup lists with Gulliman, but you don't see Space Marine players crying for a nerf to him.
Let's just clarify two things
1. Those were not the only good things in the guard index. Those were just the two so broken even guard players had to admit it. I can name a dozen things which outperformed almost every other equivalent unit in other armies
2. Conscripts get used in every soup list. With or without RG. Yes, you can build a competitive imperial soup army that competes in tournaments without RG. You can't without conscripts. That's the difference.
I think it is less about this or that being overpowered in the Index and more about now seemingly doubling down on things that are too good.
There is stuff in the index that is too good for its point compared to other options. Guilliman, Conscripts, Magnus, Tau Commanders, etc.., being frequently cited examples. Some things are also too weak and overcosted.
But for the most part, it was "ok" in the sense that people gave GW a pass for these for two reasons:
1. - Doing literally hundreds of new units for a new core game system, no matter the amount of playtesting, things were gonna slip through. It was inevitable.
2. - GW (or its playtesters) seemed to be doing a reasonable job at addressing them. There were a few fixes with Tzeentch daemons, etc.. The Chapter Approved is on the horizon. Guilliman could've maybe gotten a points hike in the Codex, but given how closely it followed the Indexes and the turnaround on printed books from China, there may not have been time to get that in.
The AM Codex is a bit heartbreaking and invites comparisons to 7th Ed. Craftworld Eldar as it doubles down on strengthening an army largely considered pretty good already.
Whether conscripts were "as broken" as Guilliman or Tau Commanders or just in the B-tier of things that are arguably too good is irrelevant. Far more devastating is the realization that ITC/Frontline Gaming playtesters evidently don't have a better grasp on balance than 5th-Edition-late-Friday-afternoon-Mat-Ward-having-a-laugh and the hope of "things will improve in time as things become more balanced in 8th" just kina died.
Do people consider guard to be really good simply because of Conscripts and Scions? Because that's literally the only thing anybody ever ran, and usually it came with an Imperial rowboat soup.
Now almost everything in this codex is worth messing with and taking. I know at my local area it's going to be really hard to find two guard players that play the exact same list now. That's what I'm hyped for.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
If you're going to spam super heavies, conscripts and mortars then go ahead and be that guy. I will refuse to play it unless it's in a tourney. But for someone as I who primarily plays to the cadian theme of a bunch of infantry squads on foot running across the board supported by leman russes I'm finally happy my army is solid and can stand up to others.
If Plasma Guns really are 13pts on Scions that should go a way to adjusting their balance, particularly on the Command squads; paired with the way Regiment doctrines work mean other options are attractive enough to compete with them (since they don't share and correct me if I'm wrong only benefit from their own if they're in their own detachment?)
SHV buffs seem modest; most of them were relatively underpowered and not very competitive.
The main problem with IG are Conscripts; even Scion spam isn't at the same level, and with the PG changes should be toned into line. We'll have to see how the meta shifts considering how light the Conscript changes are. Disappointed they didn't focus on their synergy with morale - discussed ad nauseam but I'd have pushed to make them a non-FOC choice (w/one per Infantry Squad) and give them at least the 'Get back in the fight you rabble!' Special rule I like to flagellate.
Quite a few buffs/adjustments elsewhere, but largely to units that weren't very effective or efficient for their role; you hardly ever saw Devil Dogs but they might be fieldable again, for example. Basilisk buff seems intended to make it a more attractive option to the Manticore (and it's really only Earthshaker Carriage Batteries from the FW Index that people were usually spamming at high-tier competitive play).
Feel like if they properly nerfed Conscripts (or notionally, just for debate, removed them) the anger wouldn't be quite as strong. As it is, internally IG are probably decently balanced but the moment you can Soup your army up you shed quite a bit of that balance work. Still, with Regimental/Chapter/Legion/Forgeworld tactics you'll likely see a modest disincentive to take the 'Imperial' keyword detachments we see; if GW can add more restrictions to building Soup lists on top of that (like a 20% pt restriction, which I think someone mentioned is how AoS handles it?) we might have a more balanced meta. Personally, outside of 'niche' armies that in the lore usually fielded attachments/supporting units (or were themselves attachments/supporting units) like GK, the Inquisition, SoB I'd rather see the death of 'Soup' lists entirely. Particularly in the Imperium's case, no matter how good the internal balance of a Codex can be the moment you can mix-match detachments to shore up weaknesses and min-max your list to an extreme level, Soup lists will always be the most broken aspect of the game.
I'm living in a salt mine as a Skitarii player now. They get the same CP regenerating ability on a 5+ instead of a 6+? They can already get a stupid amount of them as is! How does that make any sense?
I think they need to put significantly stronger nerfs into Conscripts (And probably in Infantry squads, and more buffs on veterans), but I think the rest of the codex is balanced-strong. I'll love for the idea that other posted said about making the Grav-Chutes in Tempestus Scions optional like the Primaris Reivers. I have 20 tempestus Scions that I run in two Tauroxes Primes with my Inquisition army, and it always feel like I'm doing just a stupid thing instead of just deep striking them whenever I want.
I love how the Codex allows for very variety of play stiles. Whant a movile mechaniced force? Tallarns for you.
Close and dirty with flamers, sentinels, hellhounds, and even meele fight? Catachans for you.
Do you want a defensive gunline? Cadians or Mordains, one more focused in standing still and the other in using your orders in the best way.
And I can totally understand why some people feels they have received the short end of the stick, this codex is great, the GK and AM not so much. And I'm waiting here for the Tau one... please GW , give me something more than Commander+Drones spam
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
.
Ahhh a leafblower player given the bitterness and 5th edition start.
Look it may be an alien concept to some but the game should be played for "fun" given the current power level of guard and that the codex seemingly only contains buffs often to already good units. Even fluffy lists are going to be very powerful and in a lot of cases not fun to play against, guard are all ready pretty tedious to play against and all the additional rolls are not going to help.
8th Guard are the new space marines in that they have multiple ways of ignoring big chunks of the basic rules and that ultimately was one of the major issue with 7th and we saw how that turned out.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They get the same CP regenerating ability on a 5+ instead of a 6+?
think IG get a CP back on 5+ ... while admech get a CP when you or your opponent spent a stratagem instead
IG warlord trait lets the IG player roll a 5+ for every CP he spends to get it back. Need the relic, which gives the IG player a chance to get 1 CP on a 5+ when their opponent uses a Stratagem, to do both.
AdMech's warlord trait gives 1CP on a 6+ anytime he or his opponent uses a Stratagem.
Not quite the same, but yeah the IG warlord trait is pretty good... on that note, does 'on the battlefield' include or preclude hiding him in a transport? Otherwise and possibly either way, to the warlord trait's slight benefit a company commander or other potential IG warlord is pretty squishy. What warlord trait does CREEEEEED get?
Red Corsair wrote: Seriously, admech players are rapidly becoming the new sister of battle crowd.
until fires of cyraxus comes out and we walk over the inferior fleshy races.... plus necrons for being heretical xenos tech. PRAISE THE OMNISSIAH THE LEGIO CYBERNETICA WILL MARCH TOWAR!
This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A boring uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
Bullgryn Slabshields are now "add +2 to your saves"
In what way this is different than before? I know before it whas "Your armour save is 2+"(The slabshield is the 2+ armour save no?)
It can effect invulnerable saves now. So Celestine giving them a 6+ now becomes a 4+. Combine that with Psychic Barrier and the Take Cover stratagem and you now have 0+ 2++ bullgryns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whereas before the Slabshield only gave you a 2+ armor save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: Anything on veterans and the company commander getting access to carapace armour or camo cloaks again?
That's starting to look like a dead meme sadly. I couldn't see it anywhere in the last video either when he was flipping through pages.
Oh, wow. Ok, thats a pretty strong buff. It makes the 4++ invulnerable shield a little weak in comparison, no? My inquisitorial army with Celestine and my squad of Bullgryns is gonna love this
Galas wrote: Oh, wow. Ok, thats a pretty strong buff. It makes the 4++ invulnerable shield a little weak in comparison, no?
You can stack the same amount of buffs on the bruteshield, but the slabshield also increases your armor which can then benefit from cover. So it's mostly situational.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing I want to point out in the miniwargaming video is that they said most point values have stayed the same, then they continue to talk about the point values that did change, and there was no mention of Plasma.
That leads me to believe that plasma hasn't actually changed, and the last guy just misspoke and meant Plasma cannons.
Galas wrote: Oh, wow. Ok, thats a pretty strong buff. It makes the 4++ invulnerable shield a little weak in comparison, no?
You can stack the same amount of buffs on the bruteshield, but the slabshield also increases your armor which can then benefit from cover. So it's mostly situational.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing I want to point out in the miniwargaming video is that they said most point values have stayed the same, then they continue to talk about the point values that did change, and there was no mention of Plasma.
That leads me to believe that plasma hasn't actually changed, and the last guy just misspoke and meant Plasma cannons.
This is the big question for me, what is the change to the plasma gun cost - might have to wait till the official release to find out for sure.
The guy in on the right also mentions scions a lot and prefers them so you think a huge change like bumping up the cost of plasmaguns would be one of the first thing he talks about, but it's never mentioned throughout the whole video.
I watched Winter SEO's video again, and he does seem pretty clear that BS4+ unit plasma guns are 7 points, and BS3+ are 13 points. Throws me for a loop where he got that 'was 15 points' from.
Also looking carefully at the points page, there are multiple entries for the plasma guns on there, can't read anything clearly though.
Codex looks pretty OP. I really don't like being the new Taudar. At least they balanced the crap units better. Now at least we have some pretty good units instead of having to pick between OP and crap. We should be able to build something that doesn't power bomb every other army. If players were complaining before I can't see it get anything but worse.
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
Point of fact, you actually did see many Eldar players arguing that Scatter Bikes were balanced and Riptide/Stormsurges weren't broken was a common mantra from Tau players. You also had AdMech players who argued that the Convocation formations were "fluffy and how the army should be played, not broken up into 3 books".
He's actually correct in any regards. I had no interest running Conscripts or Imperial soup before and now it looks like my wishes have been answered.
Cadia's coming back in a big way for me seeing everything now. I will totally acknowledge that seeing how the Cadians got a unique Tank Order and their Warlord trait allows for you to tack an Order onto a second unit is going to be huge coupled with the Laurels of Command(allowing for you to issue a second Order to the same unit), their Regimental trait is far better than I originally thought.
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
Who is pretending? I've been around longer than many, and part of being around since RT and 2nd edition tournaments means every army has been your favorite army and on your shelf at some point in time. Every army gets to have their five minutes of fame. In case of Eldar, maybe a lot more than five.
I just don't take some army being competitive, maybe even the most competitive army for the time being as seriously as you do. It never lasts that long. Your whine is irrelevant and unnecessary. It's inevitable that codex power levels aren't equal. I'm much more interested in internal balance, and happy if the hobbyist is given multiple decently competitive builds.
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
Literally, look up ONE post at mine. I get so sick of people lumping us all together because some people won't admit it's OP. There is a large group of us on THIS website that have been open about this.
Therion wrote: Who is pretending? I've been around longer than many, and part of being around since RT and 2nd edition tournaments means every army has been your favorite army and on your shelf at some point in time. Every army gets to have five minutes of fame. In case of Eldar, maybe a lot more than five. I just don't take some army being competitive, maybe even the most competitive army for the time being as seriously as you do. It never lasts that long. Your whine is irrelevant and unnecessary.
I'm annoyed because of how you keep phrasing in. It's not guard being merely competitive, but broken. Even before you were arguing they did a good job with the codex, which they objectively did not. A broken codex is not something that should be praised.
Kanluwen wrote: Point of fact, you actually did see many Eldar players arguing that Scatter Bikes were balanced and Riptide/Stormsurges weren't broken was a common mantra from Tau players. You also had AdMech players who argued that the Convocation formations were "fluffy and how the army should be played, not broken up into 3 books".
That's not at all what I saw, even when I was just lurking on these forums. At least I never saw the overwhelming majority praising broken units and formations. The same holds true in my irl group. The guy who played eldar only used the broken stuff against the tau army or one of the other cheesier lists and both fully admitted which units were broken. But try to even suggest something isn't balanced in the guard player's army.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
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Ahhh a leafblower player given the bitterness and 5th edition start.
Look it may be an alien concept to some but the game should be played for "fun" given the current power level of guard and that the codex seemingly only contains buffs often to already good units. Even fluffy lists are going to be very powerful and in a lot of cases not fun to play against, guard are all ready pretty tedious to play against and all the additional rolls are not going to help.
8th Guard are the new space marines in that they have multiple ways of ignoring big chunks of the basic rules and that ultimately was one of the major issue with 7th and we saw how that turned out.
Well to start never played leaf blower or played against it. Like I said russes and infantry squads for me. Only ever got my first artillery piece(manticore) right before 8th edition dropped and I've never run vendettas as I don't care for flyers. So only thing ive tried out is mech vets. But they were pretty bad last edition as were vehicles in general which is when I started trying chimeras. But nice assumption on
And like I said the only crazy stuff that is bothersome is conscript spam, mortars(chick hws got a point hike) and super heavies.
And let's be honest aside from the shadow sword and the transport superheavy none of the other were really that good as for a few more points an imperial knight was far superior in every way. So sure the shadow sword now hits a minimum of 3 times but can hit max 9. It onliterates what it shoots at...BUT THATS WHAT A VOLCANOE CANNON DOES!!!! sure maybe it should get a point increase gw is pretty good with coming out with fast faq's and chapter approved as well. But if your a strait tourney player guess what! If it's that freaking good the tourney will probably limit it to one super heavy baneblade variant per army or just ban it in general like most tournaments have in the past.
And everyone cried how flavor was taken away from guard when the index dropped. Well what did you think was going to happen when regimental doctrine came out, it's free bonuses to allow you to play armies different ways.
Basilisk getting ap3. It was needed to make it different from battle tank as battle tank now if moves half fires twice. I would much rather have a battle tank moving slowly double tapping than a 2d6 pick the highest with 1 point strengths night and same ap and damage. Now with it being ap3 the earthshaker differentiates itself from having too similar a profile.
Scions got their boost in plasma and that was needed and expected.
Conscripts are still great for what they do. I've only ever run 40 conscripts, 2 units of 20 so that won't change how I run them. But I've never had an opponent complain about 40 conscripts. Sure if you play against that douche that brings 80+ then it gets annoying but I've only ever seen that at tournaments. They will probably get limited more at tournements or even get a further nerf from chapter approved or an FAQ.
As each and every codex comes out further I'm sure everyone will cry about each one as well with whatever they get for their armies. It's sad when people have to abuse the best units. Yea it might seem like a casual guard army is rather hard to fight against but that's what will happen with each and every army that gets their codex updated. I know prior to this release I struggled against marines and GK because of all the new things they have.
Let time play out. Let FAQ's and chapter approved come out, let other armies get their codexs with their buffs. I'm sure guard won't be at the top for long.
crimsondave wrote: Literally, look up ONE post at mine. I get so sick of people lumping us all together because some people won't admit it's OP. There is a large group of us on THIS website that have been open about this.
That's fair, it just seems like a fairly small minority compared to people defending it. Dunno, I mean, being happy about this edition losing what claim it had to balance and the first real case of codex creep (as all the previous codices were at least within spitting distance of each other) isn't exactly going to endear me to even the more moderate ones who are still celebrating what is a massive failure.
That's not at all what I saw, even when I was just lurking on these forums. At least I never saw the overwhelming majority praising broken units and formations. The same holds true in my irl group. The guy who played eldar only used the broken stuff against the tau army or one of the other cheesier lists and both fully admitted which units were broken. But try to even suggest something isn't balanced in the guard player's army.
After the first Adepticon of 7th when we ran Tau/Eldar for the team tournament, we quit playing up until 8th in my local group because the four of us were universally sick of said Tau/Eldar BS, including the guy who was the Tau/Eldar for life. This was a group of people who didn't shy away from playing against leafblower, didn't shy away from playing against space puppies, didn't shy away from playing against 5th ed grey knights even. They really do seem like they're getting worse about balance. I don't know if it's the so-called playtesters, the rule designers, the guys in marketing, or what.
For what it's worth, this trend suggests that by the time you get your codex, you'll have the most powerful crap that you then have to defend against the ranks of angry imperial players. At any rate, I'm going to wait until I see it on the table to pass final judgement. I will continue to defend the index as "really good", but this codex really is genuinely gearing up to be silly overpowered.
I already got my codices, CSM, admech, and DG. You know, the balanced ones that managed to mostly avoid codex creep.
I'd rather not imagine codex creep getting worse. I'd rather we actually had a balanced edition. I actually had hope they might manage it as well, which in retrospect was silly. This is wardian levels of cheese across most of the army, which honestly is something even tau/eldar didn't quite manage, you still had to cherry pick units there.
Gamgee wrote: He is kinda... but he also complained about tons of Tau stuff though and thought lots was way too strong. The obvious stuff like riptide wing and storm surge sure. But I've also seen him complain about how strong the Tau were in general without them iirc. We all know how that turned out to not be true.
that's not true commander spam is top tier. And you conveniently ignored how Reece was like orks are the best army and overpowered in all his 8th ed videos and than the truth is they suck and are mid tier at best.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Sorry I said it was 15 becuase in the video he said it was 15 and then said it was 13 for veterans and 7 for everything else. So either he misspoke and said it was 15 when it wasn't or it's only 15 for scions. Either way we will find out soon.
sadhvikv wrote: Was anyone able to get a better look at those plasma gun costs? The video said 13 points, another post in the AM tactics thread says 15 points (for BS3+).
Marines only pay 13. Scions paying 15 would be idiotic. 13 is fair.
marines don't deepstrike which is why scions are better then marines w plasmaguns. However I think the video just misspoke and it's likely 13 and 7.
Plenty of marines do deepstrike, they've got transports up the wazoo, and scions are already paying for their ability to deepstrike. They cost 3 points more than veterans, and for that they get +1 armor save and deep strike.
I was personally hoping that the grav chutes would be separated (like on reivers) as an upgrade so we didn't have to take the things on every scion unit. Having deep strike standard is annoying when I have all these shiny taurox primes. Nobody ever rides in the damn things. Let me get a discount to ride in my truck and I would.
marines that deepstrike cost significantly more than scions and those transports are still grossly overpriced hence why you don't see drop pods at all any more. In fact you keep seein scions in marine lists which you continue to ignore. Scions are the best plasma gun unit by far it's not even debateable as it's just spammed in tournaments. The fact thier doctrine helps plasmaguns more just makes scion command squads better Then before. And the fact that they are currently making different points for weapons per unit shows that are cognizant of this fact.
I meant in 7th and at the beginning of 8th before commander spam was discovered. The Tau seen massive price hikes beyond what even all the other armies got. Imp plasma weapons got a major str buff. Imp weapons are all just as strong or stronger than ours right now. Heck even our 30inch ranged firewarriors are meaning less and less as more armies gain access to the ability to tie the ranged focused faction. We got nothing. If it wasn't for the commander+drones slipping through the balance net I assure you Tau lists were poised to be some of the worst in the entire edition.
SilverAlien wrote: I already got my codices, CSM, admech, and DG. You know, the balanced ones that managed to mostly avoid codex creep.
I'd rather not imagine codex creep getting worse. I'd rather we actually had a balanced edition. I actually had hope they might manage it as well, which in retrospect was silly. This is wardian levels of cheese across most of the army, which honestly is something even tau/eldar didn't quite manage, you still had to cherry pick units there.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
It is more than that I now feel guilty ever even playing with guard. My son and I both now refuse to play with guard anymore since we realized our opponents would have zero fun. This is the most absurd codex release ever.
Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
And the list goes on.
So yeah, the new codex delivers some incredible goodness. But if you actually take the time to think about it, it is far from broken.
Just remember that many guard players don't play conscripts (I've never done it so far, and I'm reluctant to try). Take away the fearless cordon of cannon fodder from the army and it becomes far less formidable.
Now, let's continue the thought experiment. Let's assume that your local guard player is *actually* an imperial guard player and doesn't play with Celestine or Guilliman or assassins, or other stuff that isn't in the codex.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, does it? In fact, all these buffs for the infantry and tanks might even actually make sense... After all, a single well-played 'zerker unit on the charge could conceivably wipe out around 30 guards at once (I've actually done this, since I also play WE).
Let's also remember that because IG has so many units to deploy, the opposite army will generally go first and thus be able to get rid of a few things... And now you might start to wonder if a standard IG army is even *that* strong.
tl;dr: the codex is only "broken" if you think all guard players are going to play ultra-compettive armies. Standard guard armies will be fine. It'll take some time for players of other armies to adapt... But in the end it'll be a strong codex, no more no less.
gendoikari87 wrote: as a mechanicus player it's hard not to be salty at this release. Can someone confirm the point cost on the engineseer?
Yea. Its obvious they can make a lot of units good, and have faction abilities that make a lot of factions/playstles useful.
Admech got shafted hard with basically Codex Cawl/Robots. The small amount of options is pretty bad.
As for the superheavy worry, I don't get why people care.
Any ITC or major tourney capped power level of units to 30 I believe. So you cant take baneblades/shadowswords etc
If you fight it, its going to be in a regular casual game.
Most Baneblades are less than 30 points. Big problem is also regimental traits seem to impact everything in the AM army. However, all other codexes only impact infantry and walkers.
BrookM wrote: Rough Riders have the <REGIMENT> keyword, so rejoice.
The problem being they are neither infantry nor vehicles. Meaning, best case scenario, half the tactics will do nothing for them. If the wording specifies infantry and vehicles for all doctrines, they get nothing.
gendoikari87 wrote: as a mechanicus player it's hard not to be salty at this release. Can someone confirm the point cost on the engineseer?
Yea. Its obvious they can make a lot of units good, and have faction abilities that make a lot of factions/playstles useful.
Admech got shafted hard with basically Codex Cawl/Robots. The small amount of options is pretty bad.
As for the superheavy worry, I don't get why people care.
Any ITC or major tourney capped power level of units to 30 I believe. So you cant take baneblades/shadowswords etc
If you fight it, its going to be in a regular casual game.
Most Baneblades are less than 30 points. Big problem is also regimental traits seem to impact everything in the AM army. However, all other codexes only impact infantry and walkers.
Let's be honest, army wide buffs that don't affect one specific type of unit, for example tanks, is a terrible internal design choice. Everyone looking for a competitive edge will just avoid the unaffected units altogether.
Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
A guard squad costs 40 points though. They are so cheap that they are actually tougher for their points than space marines. A twin assault cannon can kill a little less than 6 guardsman or a little less than 3 marines. 6 guardsman cost less than even just two marines. So the idea guard is squishy needs to die in a fire, normal guard infantry are some of the toughest infantry in the game for their cost. Unless you do something stupid like start outfitting normal guardsman with weapons that cost almost as much as the squad itself, it's not a squishy unit in the slightest.
Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
And the list goes on.
So yeah, the new codex delivers some incredible goodness. But if you actually take the time to think about it, it is far from broken.
Just remember that many guard players don't play conscripts (I've never done it so far, and I'm reluctant to try). Take away the fearless cordon of cannon fodder from the army and it becomes far less formidable.
Now, let's continue the thought experiment. Let's assume that your local guard player is *actually* an imperial guard player and doesn't play with Celestine or Guilliman or assassins, or other stuff that isn't in the codex.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, does it? In fact, all these buffs for the infantry and tanks might even actually make sense... After all, a single well-played 'zerker unit on the charge could conceivably wipe out around 30 guards at once (I've actually done this, since I also play WE).
Let's also remember that because IG has so many units to deploy, the opposite army will generally go first and thus be able to get rid of a few things... And now you might start to wonder if a standard IG army is even *that* strong.
tl;dr: the codex is only "broken" if you think all guard players are going to play ultra-compettive armies. Standard guard armies will be fine. It'll take some time for players of other armies to adapt... But in the end it'll be a strong codex, no more no less.
Guard Infantry squads were already among the best Troops choices in the game. You talk a lot about how vulnerable they are and how little damage they do per model but you don't bring up points at all, and those are kind of important. They certainly out-shoot and out-tank tactical Marines in large numbers, where you can't assume the Marines are always in cover. I mean, a twin assault cannon firing at BS3+ expects to kill only 22.2 points of Guardsmen (I'm not sure why you think it's enough to take out a whole squad), but 34.7 points of Marines. Typical combat characters are far worse against Guardsmen than against almost any other kind of infantry -- basically all of them are at least S5 AP-1, sometimes with multiple damage. Ultimately, you get a little over 3 Guardsmen per Marine, and quality just doesn't make up for quantity. Offensively, they put out 3 S3 shots at BS4+, which is a lot better than 1 S4 shot at BS3+. They even do better against T6 and T7! Likewise Guardsmen are much better in CC than Marines. Of course, Marines aren't very good and nobody's taking them in large numbers, but this is pretty striking. I'm not sure what real competition a basic Infantry squad has other than Conscripts and Horrors. Battle Sisters come close when fighting with AP0 weapons I guess, though of course they're far more vulnerable to anything that ignores their armor.
To be clear, I broadly agree that it's too soon to panic about buffs to tanks and superheavies. Certainly something needed to be done here. Most of the buffs are to things that weren't already competitive and so there's no reason to expect that they've made the army overall that much stronger. But Guard infantry of all kinds was incredibly strong and really only got stronger here, and things like Earthshaker Batteries and Manticores got a bit stronger too. That said, it's worth noting that GW didn't give them doctrines that are nearly as strong as some of the other factions' rules. There's no Salamanders regiment, which would have more-or-less doubled the firepower of every Infantry squad's heavy weapon. There's no Raven Guard regiment, which would have been dominant in any match against another gunline. And Scion plasma seems to have been nerfed, and that's very welcome, though it seems to me unlikely to make up for all the rest. After all, Primaris Psykers and Astropaths haven't been touched, and all the rest of their infantry got at least a little better, and they fantastic choices for relics and warlord traits.
All in all I think it's very likely that Guard are by far the strongest solo faction right now, even pretending that Elysians don't exist. Sure, you do even better with soup. Celestine is broken. Assassins are great. But who else is coming close? I mean, they were already way up there.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
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Ahhh a leafblower player given the bitterness and 5th edition start.
Look it may be an alien concept to some but the game should be played for "fun" given the current power level of guard and that the codex seemingly only contains buffs often to already good units. Even fluffy lists are going to be very powerful and in a lot of cases not fun to play against, guard are all ready pretty tedious to play against and all the additional rolls are not going to help.
8th Guard are the new space marines in that they have multiple ways of ignoring big chunks of the basic rules and that ultimately was one of the major issue with 7th and we saw how that turned out.
Well to start never played leaf blower or played against it. Like I said russes and infantry squads for me. Only ever got my first artillery piece(manticore) right before 8th edition dropped and I've never run vendettas as I don't care for flyers. So only thing ive tried out is mech vets. But they were pretty bad last edition as were vehicles in general which is when I started trying chimeras. But nice assumption on
And like I said the only crazy stuff that is bothersome is conscript spam, mortars(chick hws got a point hike) and super heavies.
And let's be honest aside from the shadow sword and the transport superheavy none of the other were really that good as for a few more points an imperial knight was far superior in every way. So sure the shadow sword now hits a minimum of 3 times but can hit max 9. It onliterates what it shoots at...BUT THATS WHAT A VOLCANOE CANNON DOES!!!! sure maybe it should get a point increase gw is pretty good with coming out with fast faq's and chapter approved as well. But if your a strait tourney player guess what! If it's that freaking good the tourney will probably limit it to one super heavy baneblade variant per army or just ban it in general like most tournaments have in the past.
And everyone cried how flavor was taken away from guard when the index dropped. Well what did you think was going to happen when regimental doctrine came out, it's free bonuses to allow you to play armies different ways.
Basilisk getting ap3. It was needed to make it different from battle tank as battle tank now if moves half fires twice. I would much rather have a battle tank moving slowly double tapping than a 2d6 pick the highest with 1 point strengths night and same ap and damage. Now with it being ap3 the earthshaker differentiates itself from having too similar a profile.
Scions got their boost in plasma and that was needed and expected.
Conscripts are still great for what they do. I've only ever run 40 conscripts, 2 units of 20 so that won't change how I run them. But I've never had an opponent complain about 40 conscripts. Sure if you play against that douche that brings 80+ then it gets annoying but I've only ever seen that at tournaments. They will probably get limited more at tournements or even get a further nerf from chapter approved or an FAQ.
As each and every codex comes out further I'm sure everyone will cry about each one as well with whatever they get for their armies. It's sad when people have to abuse the best units. Yea it might seem like a casual guard army is rather hard to fight against but that's what will happen with each and every army that gets their codex updated. I know prior to this release I struggled against marines and GK because of all the new things they have.
Let time play out. Let FAQ's and chapter approved come out, let other armies get their codexs with their buffs. I'm sure guard won't be at the top for long.
Sure Volcano cannons should kill stufff. The previous points D6 shots at 444 points already did it exceedingly well. I had used it since the index release and I already felt dirty due to its power. It was an insanely good option before. However, now with 3D3 shots, only costing 398 points, and capable of moving and shooting without penalty, psychic ability buffs, and regiment traits/ strategems buffing it, I mean WTF. No other armies “center piece” unit survives a single round of shooting against this. Before the cost and move and shoot penalty helped balance it out. In the new codex the Shadowsword has zero weaknesses.
Basilisk getting AP3. I mean did anyone not think they were exceptionally good for only 108pts? now add in the fact that regiment traits/ strategems buff it again makes a very good unit broken. On average this thing gets 5 mini lascannon shots a turn that doesn’t need LOS. 3 units of these means goodbye all heavy infantry and vehicles.
Three basilisks is in conjunction with the Shadowsword is very powerful against monsters, infantry and tanks. After you figure out how to deal with that you only need to develop plan to beat the other 1278 points in the AM list. Good luck.
Most Baneblades are less than 30 points. Big problem is also regimental traits seem to impact everything in the AM army. However, all other codexes only impact infantry and walkers.
This isn't really true. Note that Guard don't get doctrines on flyers, for example. And the restriction to walkers in the Marine codex is kind of dumb. Like, is there actually any good reason why Space Marines don't get Tactics on Predators? As-is they can take a Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought and get better firepower on a more durable platform with Tactics. Would Land Raiders be broken with Tactics? If the decision here was motivated by game balance it seems like a pretty bad one -- Marines just don't bring the worse units that don't get Tactics. Razorbacks are really the only thing that come to mind as a potential problem, but clearly they're just too cheap. Now, if it's fluff-motivated then it's harder to argue with. Maybe the goal was to incentivize bringing actual Marines in Marine armies. Now, with Chaos maybe there was a reasonable concern about giving Tactics to Daemon-keyworded units, given the existence of The Changeling and other possible buffs in a future Daemons codex, but still the result of the Chaos codex appears to be that very few people want to use the daemon engines.
Edit: And, like, Tactics are fun. Surely the right approach to Baneblades is to give them doctrines and then balance their point cost around that. People love this stuff.
Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
And the list goes on.
So yeah, the new codex delivers some incredible goodness. But if you actually take the time to think about it, it is far from broken.
Just remember that many guard players don't play conscripts (I've never done it so far, and I'm reluctant to try). Take away the fearless cordon of cannon fodder from the army and it becomes far less formidable.
Now, let's continue the thought experiment. Let's assume that your local guard player is *actually* an imperial guard player and doesn't play with Celestine or Guilliman or assassins, or other stuff that isn't in the codex.
Suddenly it doesn't seem so bad, does it? In fact, all these buffs for the infantry and tanks might even actually make sense... After all, a single well-played 'zerker unit on the charge could conceivably wipe out around 30 guards at once (I've actually done this, since I also play WE).
Let's also remember that because IG has so many units to deploy, the opposite army will generally go first and thus be able to get rid of a few things... And now you might start to wonder if a standard IG army is even *that* strong.
tl;dr: the codex is only "broken" if you think all guard players are going to play ultra-compettive armies. Standard guard armies will be fine. It'll take some time for players of other armies to adapt... But in the end it'll be a strong codex, no more no less.
Just stop. We are ridiculously OP. We were blowing people off the board with the INDEX. If you watch the mini war gaming review, what's his name is 28-1 with the index. If you want to troll all the tournaments congrats. If your like me, though, your left wondering how anybody is going to have fun playing the army I just spent the last two years building and painting. Who could have guessed infantry horde with scions would be ultra cheese during 7th? Seriously, my army looks like a power gamer built it.
Well Owen also doesn't use pure guard. Celestine is quite common in his lists. And I must say, his tactics and lists are ... odd. Often featuring dual Valkyries. Which were dog gak before. Now he is going to do even better.
Seriously, my army looks like a power gamer built it.
I am having the same issue with my IG force. I've spent hundreds of hours building and painting and literally lost every game of 7th I played. Now all I hear is complaining during games and get treated like a WAAC player. I never played conscripts and I went as far as to switch to a mech list and only lost one game using the index.
The real crime here is the buffs to super heavies, conscripts and the basilisks imho. This edition lends itself to the IG's army composition and strengths and without making the army total crap its always going to be good in the current ruleset. I'm sure GW is going to FAQ the gak out of this dex.
Seems to me some people are forgetting that the basic imperial guard is kinda crap: it's a T3 model shooting T3 weapons at BS4+.
So yeah, guards get plenty of nice buffs (orders and now, regimental doctrines) and toys (tanks) to compensate.
But the core of the army is still terribly squishy. Without buffs, a mere twin-linked assault cannons volley is enough to wipe out an entire squad. A single character from almost any other army can wipe a squad of IG by itself.
A guard squad costs 40 points though. They are so cheap that they are actually tougher for their points than space marines. A twin assault cannon can kill a little less than 6 guardsman or a little less than 3 marines. 6 guardsman cost less than even just two marines. So the idea guard is squishy needs to die in a fire, normal guard infantry are some of the toughest infantry in the game for their cost. Unless you do something stupid like start outfitting normal guardsman with weapons that cost almost as much as the squad itself, it's not a squishy unit in the slightest.
Here's the math to back it up, folks. Please keep telling me that Guard infantry are squishy.
They were last edition when you had no cover and most basic weapons ignored your armor while being too expensi e for that. Now you get armor to anything worse than Sternguard and Rubric Bolters. How are any of you defending this?
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
I've never seen Guard players say Conscripts aren't broken and Plasma Scions aren't OP.
The problem is when people start screaming THE CODEX IS OP, WTF NO MORE NERFS? I HATE GUARD NOW. No, it's literally two units, whom only get totally and utterly broken when used to support OTHER Imperial armies.
Leman Russ' were crap. Baneblades were useless. Infantry Squads were okay. Veterans were pointless. Hellhounds were okay. Sentinels were (as always) crap. Ogryns were okay. Scions were powerful. Conscripts were broken.
Now the Codex still has hilariously broken Conscripts/Scions, but there's far more internal-balance among the rest of the stuff. So long as you avoid those two (and Scions are really only broken with stacked plasma), it's a damn good, powerful army but not unstoppable which is ultimately what should be striven for in a codex.
Also seriously, hating on Conscript spam is practically a meme at this point. I'm willing to bet the actual numbers of Conscript spammers are slim, just because WAAC players who invested in 150 Conscripts would've bought whatever else was broken in it's place anyway. The only other people with 150-ish Guardsmen will be people who played Guard for years, who generally speaking I bet will play much more diverse lists than Girlyman/Conscripts/Scions just so they don't get boo'ed out of the club.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A boring uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
I like you ignored the power level of FOUR other Codices when you made that thought. See, it wasn't just that the Guard codex is busted. It's all AdMechs fault. It can't be that two things happened at once, that the AdMech codex was a bit of a letdown crunch and fluff wise compared to SM/GK/CSM/DG and that the Guard codex is busted. Nope, can't be that at all.
Huh, I would have guessed that conscripts and infantry squads would go up 1 point per model, just because the doctrines give a nice buff to both of them.
Seems like the pros are:
-Plasma got price hike for scions - nice because it wasn't scions so much as plasma ON scions that was busted.
-Russes are worth using again
-Regimental Doctrines bring character back to the guard
-Conscripts got nerfed (though they could probably use a touch more tweaking)
-The internal balance of the codex feels about right, barring a few too good units and a few too bad units
Cons:
-Rough Riders are gone
-Conscripts and Infantry Squads are still out performing a bit
-If the plasma nerf hits Veterans too, they will underperform even more.
-The external balance is a bit off - mostly Conscripts and Infantry Squads due to their spamability.
With all the doom and gloom, I have a bit of a question: when do you guys think this book went to press? They probably do this stuff several months in advance, I'd assume the codex was finalized right around 8th's launch at the latest - before the current meta of conscripts everywhere came about. Chapter Approved is where we'll see more nerfs than buffs for Guard.
No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.
Now with Veterans to be honest I don't know what can be done with them to make them worthwile. I'll love if they add the option to have Scions without deepstrike for 2 ppm less.
Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.
Veterans, Leman Russ, Infantry Squads, Hellhounds are all solid units in the index. Played them all in many tournaments and still did very well. The only people saying there crap are the WAAC tournament players. Every god damn unit is rated by these players and only perpetuates the negative douchebaggery of the 40K community.
I agree with you Gainsay in the part about the perception of the units,but for me Veterans and Leman Russes where pretty disappointing. Many times I have seen that in the internet theres only three states for a unit: OP (This is for a unit that is really, really OP. Like, God-Tier) Usable (This is a euphemism for OP) and Crap (This is for the rest of the units, both for units that are balanced and units that are actually pretty bad).
And personally I find redundant to call tournament players WAAC. Yeah, thats why you go to a competitive tournament, to win. Theres nothing bad about that. Even chasing the meta with the most OP flavour of the month doesn't has nothing bad about it, as long as is used in a competitive tournament.
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
I've never seen Guard players say Conscripts aren't broken and Plasma Scions aren't OP.
The problem is when people start screaming THE CODEX IS OP, WTF NO MORE NERFS? I HATE GUARD NOW. No, it's literally two units, whom only get totally and utterly broken when used to support OTHER Imperial armies.
Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.
Now the Codex still has hilariously broken Conscripts/Scions, but there's far more internal-balance among the rest of the stuff. So long as you avoid those two (and Scions are really only broken with stacked plasma), it's a damn good, powerful army but not unstoppable which is ultimately what should be striven for in a codex.
Also seriously, hating on Conscript spam is practically a meme at this point. I'm willing to bet the actual numbers of Conscript spammers are slim, just because WAAC players who invested in 150 Conscripts would've bought whatever else was broken in it's place anyway. The only other people with 150-ish Guardsmen will be people who played Guard for years, who generally speaking I bet will play much more diverse lists than Girlyman/Conscripts/Scions just so they don't get boo'ed out of the club.
Basically this.
I'd say Infantry Squads are more than okay, though not brokenly powerful. With Regimental Doctrines giving them more abilities, I can easily see them and conscripts going up a point each and still be worth taking while cutting back on spam.
Galas wrote:No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.
Now with Veterans to be honest I don't know what can be done with them to make them worthwile. I'll love if they add the option to have Scions without deepstrike for 2 ppm less.
Well, if both Conscripts and Infantry Squads go up 1 ppm each, but Veterans don't, that in and of itself will be a small buff to them. Though yeah, overall Veterans are still not in the best place (unless somehow all of the reviewers / rumor mongers missed veteran doctrines returning somehow).
I think the problem with Veterans are Tempestus Scions. Is like having Tactical Marines, Better Tactical Marines, and then Sternguard. They basically occupy the same role.
Therion wrote: This is a great codex that will bring variety to the army. Before what did we have? Conscripts, Scions, Tauroxes and indirect fire? All well and good but the only variation was some liked to drop in Assassin spam, some liked to drop in Psyker spam.
Now what we have? We don't even know yet, but for sure we'll have a lot more powerful army variants, and we didn't even lose the previous lists. It's a good codex.
Elysians are still great, assuming they're legal.
If the power level is an issue, blame it on the blandness of AdMech, not on this release. A bland uninspired book with very few interesting things like the AdMech shouldn't be the standard for anything. I'd just let the meta settle and hope future codices are all competitive and spicy.
It amazes me how people will defend absolute cheese when it is for their favorite army. You've got a broken mess of OPbs. The "bland" codices look bland because they are balanced, if they had the same options guard has you'd start complaining about guard being bland again.
I still don't get why guard players can't admit when things are busted. Admech players generally agreed the convocation formations were busted for all their free stuff, tau players new the riptide/storm surge was OP, never saw eldar players arguing scatter bikes were super balanced. Why is it just guard who likes to pretend their absurd cheese is balanced and fair?
I've never seen Guard players say Conscripts aren't broken and Plasma Scions aren't OP.
The problem is when people start screaming THE CODEX IS OP, WTF NO MORE NERFS? I HATE GUARD NOW. No, it's literally two units, whom only get totally and utterly broken when used to support OTHER Imperial armies.
Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.
Now the Codex still has hilariously broken Conscripts/Scions, but there's far more internal-balance among the rest of the stuff. So long as you avoid those two (and Scions are really only broken with stacked plasma), it's a damn good, powerful army but not unstoppable which is ultimately what should be striven for in a codex.
Also seriously, hating on Conscript spam is practically a meme at this point. I'm willing to bet the actual numbers of Conscript spammers are slim, just because WAAC players who invested in 150 Conscripts would've bought whatever else was broken in it's place anyway. The only other people with 150-ish Guardsmen will be people who played Guard for years, who generally speaking I bet will play much more diverse lists than Girlyman/Conscripts/Scions just so they don't get boo'ed out of the club.
Basically this.
I'd say Infantry Squads are more than okay, though not brokenly powerful. With Regimental Doctrines giving them more abilities, I can easily see them and conscripts going up a point each and still be worth taking while cutting back on spam.
Galas wrote:No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.
Now with Veterans to be honest I don't know what can be done with them to make them worthwile. I'll love if they add the option to have Scions without deepstrike for 2 ppm less.
Well, if both Conscripts and Infantry Squads go up 1 ppm each, but Veterans don't, that in and of itself will be a small buff to them. Though yeah, overall Veterans are still not in the best place (unless somehow all of the reviewers / rumor mongers missed veteran doctrines returning somehow).
The points didn't change. Still 3 point conscripts, 4 point IG unless I'm cross-eyed. I paused during one of the reviews on the points page and saw it.
I guess the bright side is when the WAAC players move on to the next cheese we'll have tons of cheap IG to buy off ebay.
Galas wrote: I think the problem with Veterans are Tempestus Scions. Is like having Tactical Marines, Better Tactical Marines, and then Sternguard. They basically occupy the same role.
That and moving to elites, while Scions moved to troops. It means that Scions are also better at holding objectives than Veterans, while Veterans are competing with other, often better, options in their slot. They might be worthwhile in Steel Legion armies, due to having 3 specials jumping out of their metal boxes, rerolling ones, and then having the survivors fire and duck for cover back inside the next turn. Other than that though, they could use some love.
The points didn't change. Still 3 point conscripts, 4 point IG unless I'm cross-eyed. I paused during one of the reviews on the points page and saw it.
I guess the bright side is when the WAAC players move on to the next cheese we'll have tons of cheap IG to buy off ebay.
Oh I did the same thing, they did not change from what I can see. What I'm saying is that bumping each of those up to 4 and 5 points respectively will go a long way to making guardsmen more balanced all around. I think/hope this will happen in Chapter Approved, as the dex itself probably went to print before 8th even launched.
Galas wrote: I agree with you Gainsay in the part about the perception of the units,but for me Veterans and Leman Russes where pretty disappointing. Many times I have seen that in the internet theres only three states for a unit: OP (This is for a unit that is really, really OP. Like, God-Tier) Usable (This is a euphemism for OP) and Crap (This is for the rest of the units, both for units that are balanced and units that are actually pretty bad).
And personally I find redundant to call tournament players WAAC. Yeah, thats why you go to a competitive tournament, to win. Theres nothing bad about that. Even chasing the meta with the most OP flavour of the month doesn't has nothing bad about it, as long as is used in a competitive tournament.
It's obvious players are stuck on efficiency with every unit in a vacuum. The IG is an army that strives on the role units play and the overall synergy they provide. That said some units are obviously OP and I guess if you want to play one dimensionally you "should" only play those. A lot of units are not as easy to evaluate on paper and the best players are the people who can come up with a list thats playing the things that seem "bad" to everyone else to great effect. Lets be realistic some units are gak like sentinels tho.
Anyway I agree with you but it just seems every release there is more complaining than anything. Just wait till the cheddar and tau get books you know they're going to be really good.
The vast majority of complaining comes from a very vocal minority.... online. As per usual. I don't hear the crying from people in person around stores or clubs. What is even more pathetic is that many of those who complain the loudest don't even play that often (or at all)
Galas wrote: No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.
Weird question, why do people assume this?
These codices clearly have been responding to input for the wider community, they have been responding to balance issues... up till now. They even "responded" to issues with conscripts by fundamentally misunderstanding the problem with them. If they haven't realized what the issue is by now, why would they in the future? It's like they listened to one of those WAAC guard players on dakka who kept trying to deflect from the issue with their durability by bringing up how order efficiency was "the real issue". Which frankly means they just aren't up to the job, if someone fed them that line and they bought it.
People were talking about how they'd be fixed in the codex when people were wanting a FAQ nerfing them. Now people are talking about chapter approved because the codex fell through. At a certain point we just have to accept GW's design team is to stupid to properly do basic unit point efficiency comparisons, and thus we probably aren't getting a lot of issues fixed.
Leman Russ' were crap.
Baneblades were useless.
Infantry Squads were okay.
Veterans were pointless.
Hellhounds were okay.
Sentinels were (as always) crap.
Ogryns were okay.
Scions were powerful.
Conscripts were broken.
Veterans, Leman Russ, Infantry Squads, Hellhounds are all solid units in the index. Played them all in many tournaments and still did very well. The only people saying there crap are the WAAC tournament players. Every god damn unit is rated by these players and only perpetuates the negative douchebaggery of the 40K community.
Hollow wrote: ...If only GW's design team were smart like you...
He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out... Units in one codex can be factually worse than another unit (with mathammer proving it) but cost more points. I play orks so i should know this.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
.
Ahhh a leafblower player given the bitterness and 5th edition start.
Look it may be an alien concept to some but the game should be played for "fun" given the current power level of guard and that the codex seemingly only contains buffs often to already good units. Even fluffy lists are going to be very powerful and in a lot of cases not fun to play against, guard are all ready pretty tedious to play against and all the additional rolls are not going to help.
8th Guard are the new space marines in that they have multiple ways of ignoring big chunks of the basic rules and that ultimately was one of the major issue with 7th and we saw how that turned out.
Well to start never played leaf blower or played against it. Like I said russes and infantry squads for me. Only ever got my first artillery piece(manticore) right before 8th edition dropped and I've never run vendettas as I don't care for flyers. So only thing ive tried out is mech vets. But they were pretty bad last edition as were vehicles in general which is when I started trying chimeras. But nice assumption on
And like I said the only crazy stuff that is bothersome is conscript spam, mortars(chick hws got a point hike) and super heavies.
And let's be honest aside from the shadow sword and the transport superheavy none of the other were really that good as for a few more points an imperial knight was far superior in every way. So sure the shadow sword now hits a minimum of 3 times but can hit max 9. It onliterates what it shoots at...BUT THATS WHAT A VOLCANOE CANNON DOES!!!! sure maybe it should get a point increase gw is pretty good with coming out with fast faq's and chapter approved as well. But if your a strait tourney player guess what! If it's that freaking good the tourney will probably limit it to one super heavy baneblade variant per army or just ban it in general like most tournaments have in the past.
And everyone cried how flavor was taken away from guard when the index dropped. Well what did you think was going to happen when regimental doctrine came out, it's free bonuses to allow you to play armies different ways.
Basilisk getting ap3. It was needed to make it different from battle tank as battle tank now if moves half fires twice. I would much rather have a battle tank moving slowly double tapping than a 2d6 pick the highest with 1 point strengths night and same ap and damage. Now with it being ap3 the earthshaker differentiates itself from having too similar a profile.
Scions got their boost in plasma and that was needed and expected.
Conscripts are still great for what they do. I've only ever run 40 conscripts, 2 units of 20 so that won't change how I run them. But I've never had an opponent complain about 40 conscripts. Sure if you play against that douche that brings 80+ then it gets annoying but I've only ever seen that at tournaments. They will probably get limited more at tournements or even get a further nerf from chapter approved or an FAQ.
As each and every codex comes out further I'm sure everyone will cry about each one as well with whatever they get for their armies. It's sad when people have to abuse the best units. Yea it might seem like a casual guard army is rather hard to fight against but that's what will happen with each and every army that gets their codex updated. I know prior to this release I struggled against marines and GK because of all the new things they have.
Let time play out. Let FAQ's and chapter approved come out, let other armies get their codexs with their buffs. I'm sure guard won't be at the top for long.
Sure Volcano cannons should kill stufff. The previous points D6 shots at 444 points already did it exceedingly well. I had used it since the index release and I already felt dirty due to its power. It was an insanely good option before. However, now with 3D3 shots, only costing 398 points, and capable of moving and shooting without penalty, psychic ability buffs, and regiment traits/ strategems buffing it, I mean WTF. No other armies “center piece” unit survives a single round of shooting against this. Before the cost and move and shoot penalty helped balance it out. In the new codex the Shadowsword has zero weaknesses.
Basilisk getting AP3. I mean did anyone not think they were exceptionally good for only 108pts? now add in the fact that regiment traits/ strategems buff it again makes a very good unit broken. On average this thing gets 5 mini lascannon shots a turn that doesn’t need LOS. 3 units of these means goodbye all heavy infantry and vehicles.
Three basilisks is in conjunction with the Shadowsword is very powerful against monsters, infantry and tanks. After you figure out how to deal with that you only need to develop plan to beat the other 1278 points in the AM list. Good luck.
Sure a shadowsword and 3 basilisks sounds very powerful. You know how many people I've ru into playing that? none. Is everyone going to switch over to playing that? No. Just because it's good doesn't mean everyone will play it. Only you Waac players will end up buying into that. I own a shadowsword and I haven't used it in two editions. I only use it when I fight my buddies titans. I don't own any basilisks and don't plan on getting any. I prefer russes over artillery just cuz they are my favorite model.
I don't think a lot of people realize a lot of these crazy op units will only be spammed and taken by Waac players.
SeanDrake wrote: B.b.but most balanced edition ever, most playtested edition ever?
So who on the playtest crew plays guard?
Our local guard player is conflicted o the one hand he can curb stomp in the tournaments but he will never get another game outside the tournaments again.
If that's what his supposed friends are like, he's better off not playing. What a bunch of drama queens.
Completely agree. This is a game. Get over it. Played guard since 5th I'm glad they're finally great!
.
Ahhh a leafblower player given the bitterness and 5th edition start.
Look it may be an alien concept to some but the game should be played for "fun" given the current power level of guard and that the codex seemingly only contains buffs often to already good units. Even fluffy lists are going to be very powerful and in a lot of cases not fun to play against, guard are all ready pretty tedious to play against and all the additional rolls are not going to help.
8th Guard are the new space marines in that they have multiple ways of ignoring big chunks of the basic rules and that ultimately was one of the major issue with 7th and we saw how that turned out.
Well to start never played leaf blower or played against it. Like I said russes and infantry squads for me. Only ever got my first artillery piece(manticore) right before 8th edition dropped and I've never run vendettas as I don't care for flyers. So only thing ive tried out is mech vets. But they were pretty bad last edition as were vehicles in general which is when I started trying chimeras. But nice assumption on
And like I said the only crazy stuff that is bothersome is conscript spam, mortars(chick hws got a point hike) and super heavies.
And let's be honest aside from the shadow sword and the transport superheavy none of the other were really that good as for a few more points an imperial knight was far superior in every way. So sure the shadow sword now hits a minimum of 3 times but can hit max 9. It onliterates what it shoots at...BUT THATS WHAT A VOLCANOE CANNON DOES!!!! sure maybe it should get a point increase gw is pretty good with coming out with fast faq's and chapter approved as well. But if your a strait tourney player guess what! If it's that freaking good the tourney will probably limit it to one super heavy baneblade variant per army or just ban it in general like most tournaments have in the past.
And everyone cried how flavor was taken away from guard when the index dropped. Well what did you think was going to happen when regimental doctrine came out, it's free bonuses to allow you to play armies different ways.
Basilisk getting ap3. It was needed to make it different from battle tank as battle tank now if moves half fires twice. I would much rather have a battle tank moving slowly double tapping than a 2d6 pick the highest with 1 point strengths night and same ap and damage. Now with it being ap3 the earthshaker differentiates itself from having too similar a profile.
Scions got their boost in plasma and that was needed and expected.
Conscripts are still great for what they do. I've only ever run 40 conscripts, 2 units of 20 so that won't change how I run them. But I've never had an opponent complain about 40 conscripts. Sure if you play against that douche that brings 80+ then it gets annoying but I've only ever seen that at tournaments. They will probably get limited more at tournements or even get a further nerf from chapter approved or an FAQ.
As each and every codex comes out further I'm sure everyone will cry about each one as well with whatever they get for their armies. It's sad when people have to abuse the best units. Yea it might seem like a casual guard army is rather hard to fight against but that's what will happen with each and every army that gets their codex updated. I know prior to this release I struggled against marines and GK because of all the new things they have.
Let time play out. Let FAQ's and chapter approved come out, let other armies get their codexs with their buffs. I'm sure guard won't be at the top for long.
Sure Volcano cannons should kill stufff. The previous points D6 shots at 444 points already did it exceedingly well. I had used it since the index release and I already felt dirty due to its power. It was an insanely good option before. However, now with 3D3 shots, only costing 398 points, and capable of moving and shooting without penalty, psychic ability buffs, and regiment traits/ strategems buffing it, I mean WTF. No other armies “center piece” unit survives a single round of shooting against this. Before the cost and move and shoot penalty helped balance it out. In the new codex the Shadowsword has zero weaknesses.
Basilisk getting AP3. I mean did anyone not think they were exceptionally good for only 108pts? now add in the fact that regiment traits/ strategems buff it again makes a very good unit broken. On average this thing gets 5 mini lascannon shots a turn that doesn’t need LOS. 3 units of these means goodbye all heavy infantry and vehicles.
Three basilisks is in conjunction with the Shadowsword is very powerful against monsters, infantry and tanks. After you figure out how to deal with that you only need to develop plan to beat the other 1278 points in the AM list. Good luck.
Sure a shadowsword and 3 basilisks sounds very powerful. You know how many people I've ru into playing that? none. Is everyone going to switch over to playing that? No. Just because it's good doesn't mean everyone will play it. Only you Waac players will end up buying into that. I own a shadowsword and I haven't used it in two editions. I only use it when I fight my buddies titans. I don't own any basilisks and don't plan on getting any. I prefer russes over artillery just cuz they are my favorite model.
I don't think a lot of people realize a lot of these crazy op units will only be spammed and taken by Waac players.
Very true, that and who will actually buy and paint 150 conscripts just because of a power shift? I haven't got 150 painted models in my army after working on it for 2 years.
Galas wrote: No problem guys, they'll make Conscripts 4 points and Infantry Guardsmen 5 points with Chapter Approved.
Weird question, why do people assume this?
These codices clearly have been responding to input for the wider community, they have been responding to balance issues... up till now. They even "responded" to issues with conscripts by fundamentally misunderstanding the problem with them. If they haven't realized what the issue is by now, why would they in the future? It's like they listened to one of those WAAC guard players on dakka who kept trying to deflect from the issue with their durability by bringing up how order efficiency was "the real issue". Which frankly means they just aren't up to the job, if someone fed them that line and they bought it.
People were talking about how they'd be fixed in the codex when people were wanting a FAQ nerfing them. Now people are talking about chapter approved because the codex fell through. At a certain point we just have to accept GW's design team is to stupid to properly do basic unit point efficiency comparisons, and thus we probably aren't getting a lot of issues fixed.
Why I assume and expect for them to improve? Because thats at least for me the option that I prefer.
The other options are:
-Stop playing W40K alltogether and go to play other games. (I already play other non-GW games, and I like W40K still.)
-Start saying how W40K is unbalanced gak and totally unfixable in the internet with the objetive of ... of what? Free my frustration? I dont take all of this that seriously.
-Give GW feedback in social media. (I already do this)
-Use the flavour o the month OP hotness. Personally I don't chase the meta, for me is a job of futility.
We can say all day that GW rule writers are bad, and to be honest, personally even if I believe that they have some cool and fun ideas they are mediocre at best when they need to implement them. But what after that? What do you expect is gonna happen, SilverAlien, after 5 months of repeating 5-10 times a day that Conscripts are OP on the internet? Give GW constructive feedback, and wait for the better. Or don't, and play other games, but theres a point where just assuming that GW games are gonna be always unfixable isn't good enough for a sane person. Is a toxic relationship with something that should be a hobby.
You gents are both very true. I only have 1 Basilisk. Ask me how old it is? It's 15 years old. Lol. The first tank I ever painted. Pretty sure when I put it on a table at my local shop people immediately recognize that when it is in immediate contrast to my nicely painted miniatures of my adult years.
People who are upset over this codex must be playing against far more competitive gamers. My local shop definitely has a very fun and hobby focused atmosphere. I'll continue to run my lists my way. To include rough riders. And you know what? If it's truly OP, I'll just tell my opponent to take an extra however many points more than me. Simple fix without me having to play without a brain
SilverAlien wrote:A guard squad costs 40 points though. They are so cheap that they are actually tougher for their points than space marines. A twin assault cannon can kill a little less than 6 guardsman or a little less than 3 marines. 6 guardsman cost less than even just two marines. So the idea guard is squishy needs to die in a fire, normal guard infantry are some of the toughest infantry in the game for their cost. Unless you do something stupid like start outfitting normal guardsman with weapons that cost almost as much as the squad itself, it's not a squishy unit in the slightest.
Dionysodorus wrote:Guard Infantry squads were already among the best Troops choices in the game. You talk a lot about how vulnerable they are and how little damage they do per model but you don't bring up points at all, and those are kind of important. They certainly out-shoot and out-tank tactical Marines in large numbers, where you can't assume the Marines are always in cover. I mean, a twin assault cannon firing at BS3+ expects to kill only 22.2 points of Guardsmen (I'm not sure why you think it's enough to take out a whole squad), but 34.7 points of Marines. Typical combat characters are far worse against Guardsmen than against almost any other kind of infantry -- basically all of them are at least S5 AP-1, sometimes with multiple damage. Ultimately, you get a little over 3 Guardsmen per Marine, and quality just doesn't make up for quantity. Offensively, they put out 3 S3 shots at BS4+, which is a lot better than 1 S4 shot at BS3+. They even do better against T6 and T7! Likewise Guardsmen are much better in CC than Marines. Of course, Marines aren't very good and nobody's taking them in large numbers, but this is pretty striking. I'm not sure what real competition a basic Infantry squad has other than Conscripts and Horrors. Battle Sisters come close when fighting with AP0 weapons I guess, though of course they're far more vulnerable to anything that ignores their armor.
- Because points aren't everything. Or to put it another way, it's a bit more complicated than that. You also have to look at which units in the army are actually inflicting damage on the enemy. Yeah, the basic guard infantry unit is cheap and cost-efficient, but by itself it isn't going to do that much. You may if you invest more points in it like a 20pt-lascannon at least ; except if you do that the cost of the unit goes up, meaning you have to review your maths.
- But even then, that infantry squad is still not really there to inflict much damage ; for most guard players anything it manages to do is more of a bonus. It's mostly there to hold objectives. Most of the damage will come from other sources: tanks (wyverns, manticores... ), HWTs, scions... etc. And if the enemy manages to kill enough of the stuff that's actually dangerous, the infantry squads will only be there to die a quick death.
- Then there's the fact that you're comparing guards to tactical marines (I guess?). But tactical marines are crap ; I barely see any these days. So you're comparing two mediocre units (as far as damage goes I mean) and saying that out of these two, marines come out worse as far as cost-efficiency goes. Which is true. But if we start comparing unit to unit, look at 4 guards vs 1 berzerker. The point cost is the same ; but the basic 'zerker does considerably more damage. Because the 'zerkers are one of these units that are good enough to do much more than hold objectives ; they need fire support in a balanced army but in their own role they're autonomous. The basic guard infantry unit is not autonomous: it needs different buffs to even remain on the board, and actually relies on other units for impact.
- Why did I say that a tl assault cannon could wipe out a squad of guards? Because I was careful to say "a squad without buffs." Without buffs, assuming you lose 6 guards, the squad takes additional casualties through morale on 2+ and the squad disappears on a 4+.
Look, I'm not saying the infantry squad is bad at what it does or anything. My point is that however cheap it is,it still needs those buffs to be worth putting on the table. In fact, many competitive lists I've seen so far do not take a single infantry squad ; because while the infantry squad is decent, the conscripts are the ones who are truly broken. And the other thing I'm saying is that infantry squads have been cost-efficient for some time now anyway (IIRC, ever since they dropped from 60 to 50), but because they've also never been the ones inflicting most of the damage in an IG army you need to look at the rest to know how powerful the army is, because the infantry is close to cannon fodder anyway.
And that's where army comp matters. While I'm sure that some armies will be ridiculously OP, I'm reserving judgment on the "standard" IG army that has not been built for competitive play. And I'm also keeping in mind that this is stillone of the first codices released. Even if IG is the strongest faction now, I don't believe it is so strong that other factions can't catch up once they get their codices. Or even that some existing armies can't win against them.
Or does anyone seriously believe that the eldar will not have ridiculously OP rules for the first time ever?
crimsondave wrote:Just stop. We are ridiculously OP. We were blowing people off the board with the INDEX. If you watch the mini war gaming review, what's his name is 28-1 with the index. If you want to troll all the tournaments congrats. If your like me, though, your left wondering how anybody is going to have fun playing the army I just spent the last two years building and painting. Who could have guessed infantry horde with scions would be ultra cheese during 7th? Seriously, my army looks like a power gamer built it.
- If you don't have something like 6+ HWTs, I'm not sure what's so goof about your infantry horde. As I'm trying to explain, spam of basic infantry units should not by itself be a problem for any decent opponent. And scions in the index were strong with the plasma-MSU, which is a specific build after all.
- As for tournaments, the reason I'm taking this -perhaps surprising- position is because I haven't seen IG perform extraordinarily well in tournaments so far. Oh sure, they perform very well, and good players will easily reach top 5 with an IG army. But they haven't been performing so well that it has had people worrying. And I'm talking about power armies with tons of conscripts, Celestine and sometimes assassins on top of that.
It's just not that easy to play, and it's way more vulnerable than people assume. Even with the codex, I think many people will realize in a few weeks that playing IG is actually quite far from getting auto-wins.
- The faction that has had people worried in my area is Ynnaris. In the latest tournament, the three 3 winners were all playing ynnari. Not that they're easy to play either, but good ynnari builds are truly terrifying.
The mini war gaming IG player actually said that everything that was amazing got better and they're the strongest army in the game. Even said it was easy tournament prize money with index and "good luck" to anyone who goes again ig.
Here's the huge problem. Play IG against most factions won't be a problem. Grey knights will probably beat them for example. But play IG against Orks and you have a major problem. We don't have any assassins to snipe your characters and stop orders and moral, we don't have the accuracy and output to deal with the hordes, even with cc you now have ways to counter tgat making it less likely we can do anything! I played a game vs IG without the codex and turn 1 (no joke) 90% of my army was taken off the table... even with my 5+ Invulnerable and 6+ fnp! And it's not like I can use gretchin to screen my units against conscripts when conscripts cost the same points as my screen unit!
But what he didn't say was his army list for tournaments. Go watch Owen's battle reports. He does not have the standard conscripts + Earthshaker Platforms + Scions list. His list is also a bit of imperial soup. He definitely has a unique style and list.
Hollow wrote: ...If only GW's design team were smart like you...
He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out... Units in one codex can be factually worse than another unit (with mathammer proving it) but cost more points. I play orks so i should know this.
Yeah, that's the thing this isn't even hard to spot for most people who are actively looking, I don't think it takes much to realize such issues exist. Which is what frustrates me. This should be obvious to someone who has actually gone through and done a point comparison on different units. Or had a generic milestone which other units are measured against. I can see issues like orders being more effective on conscripts slipping past a designer, that's the sort of thing you might not notice without playtesting. But basic ppm efficiency is literally just math, and not even hard math. It's high school statistics at absolute worst. I don't see how they keep making really basic mistakes, unless they aren't bothering to actually do any real work and are just eyeballing unit efficiency and adjusting based on feedback from playtesters/the community.
Also, if they are just eyeballing unit efficiency and adjusting based on feedback from playtesters/the community, they need to be fired because of laziness and incompetence.
Hollow wrote: ...If only GW's design team were smart like you...
He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out... Units in one codex can be factually worse than another unit (with mathammer proving it) but cost more points. I play orks so i should know this.
Yeah, that's the thing this isn't even hard to spot for most people who are actively looking, I don't think it takes much to realize such issues exist. Which is what frustrates me. This should be obvious to someone who has actually gone through and done a point comparison on different units. Or had a generic milestone which other units are measured against. I can see issues like orders being more effective on conscripts slipping past a designer, that's the sort of thing you might not notice without playtesting. But basic ppm efficiency is literally just math, and not even hard math. It's high school statistics at absolute worst. I don't see how they keep making really basic mistakes, unless they aren't bothering to actually do any real work and are just eyeballing unit efficiency and adjusting based on feedback from playtesters/the community.
Also, if they are just eyeballing unit efficiency and adjusting based on feedback from playtesters/the community, they need to be fired because of laziness and incompetence.
Do you think we could create a basic algorithm that woukd determine points based on T, S, BS, WS, ect... of a unit?
Hollow wrote: ...If only GW's design team were smart like you...
He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out...
Figured out what? How to create and maintain the most popular, prolific and profitable tabletop miniatures game on the planet? Seems to me like they got that ALL figured out.
- Because points aren't everything. Or to put it another way, it's a bit more complicated than that. You also have to look at which units in the army are actually inflicting damage on the enemy. Yeah, the basic guard infantry unit is cheap and cost-efficient, but by itself it isn't going to do that much. You may if you invest more points in it like a 20pt-lascannon at least ; except if you do that the cost of the unit goes up, meaning you have to review your maths.
- But even then, that infantry squad is still not really there to inflict much damage ; for most guard players anything it manages to do is more of a bonus. It's mostly there to hold objectives. Most of the damage will come from other sources: tanks (wyverns, manticores... ), HWTs, scions... etc. And if the enemy manages to kill enough of the stuff that's actually dangerous, the infantry squads will only be there to die a quick death.
- Then there's the fact that you're comparing guards to tactical marines (I guess?). But tactical marines are crap ; I barely see any these days. So you're comparing two mediocre units (as far as damage goes I mean) and saying that out of these two, marines come out worse as far as cost-efficiency goes. Which is true. But if we start comparing unit to unit, look at 4 guards vs 1 berzerker. The point cost is the same ; but the basic 'zerker does considerably more damage. Because the 'zerkers are one of these units that are good enough to do much more than hold objectives ; they need fire support in a balanced army but in their own role they're autonomous. The basic guard infantry unit is not autonomous: it needs different buffs to even remain on the board, and actually relies on other units for impact.
- Why did I say that a tl assault cannon could wipe out a squad of guards? Because I was careful to say "a squad without buffs." Without buffs, assuming you lose 6 guards, the squad takes additional casualties through morale on 2+ and the squad disappears on a 4+.
Look, I'm not saying the infantry squad is bad at what it does or anything. My point is that however cheap it is,it still needs those buffs to be worth putting on the table. In fact, many competitive lists I've seen so far do not take a single infantry squad ; because while the infantry squad is decent, the conscripts are the ones who are truly broken. And the other thing I'm saying is that infantry squads have been cost-efficient for some time now anyway (IIRC, ever since they dropped from 60 to 50), but because they've also never been the ones inflicting most of the damage in an IG army you need to look at the rest to know how powerful the army is, because the infantry is close to cannon fodder anyway.
And that's where army comp matters. While I'm sure that some armies will be ridiculously OP, I'm reserving judgment on the "standard" IG army that has not been built for competitive play. And I'm also keeping in mind that this is stillone of the first codices released. Even if IG is the strongest faction now, I don't believe it is so strong that other factions can't catch up once they get their codices. Or even that some existing armies can't win against them.
Or does anyone seriously believe that the eldar will not have ridiculously OP rules for the first time ever?
This seems like a pretty different sort of position than what I took you to be staking out earlier. So, to be clear, I do not think that Guard players should just try to maximize the number of Infantry models they have on the table. I do think they should make use of the buffs they've got access to, etc. I'm a little confused at your post here because you start off by saying "points aren't everything" and then you proceed to engage in highly artificial mathhammer about incomparable situations that rarely actually arise. Certainly nothing here looks like an argument against the position that Infantry are one of the best Troops choices in the game. Like, you're comparing the damage output of a Berzerker that magically finds itself in CC to the same points in Guardsmen and remarking on how it does more damage (although actually the Guardsmen do okay). Why do we care about this at all? I don't understand why you think this shows that Berzerkers, as opposed to Guardsmen, are "good enough to do much more than hold objectives". I don't understand why this means Guardsmen aren't really, really good.
lolman1c wrote: Do you think we could create a basic algorithm that woukd determine points based on T, S, BS, WS, ect... of a unit?
To many moving parts for a single accurate algorithm I think. At least, that I could do. A simpler, and arguably more accurate, method is just to have a set of of equations calculating offensive/defensive efficiency against some of the most common targets.
Of course, one of the big issues is this ignores synergy. So a conscript unit might look balanced till you run one being buffed by a commissar through and realize it's defensive power has basically doubled at a trivial external cost, making the unit's poor leadership and large minimum size totally irrelevant.
For conscripts I feel the issue should be obvious because well... has anyone ever even considered running conscripts without a commissar? You should be operating from that as a baseline tbh.
Hollow wrote: ...If only GW's design team were smart like you...
He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out...
Figured out what? How to create and maintain the most popular, prolific and profitable tabletop miniatures game on the planet? Seems to me like they got that ALL figured out.
Then they obviously haven't figured out balance because they figured out balance doesn't sell....
I understand the fristeatiin with balance and powercreep etc. But as a modeler and painter if all tbis means we get not-marine modelnreleases I'll be pretty damn happy.
This codex is broken beyond belief OP. The newest table top tactics does not use the codex which was buffed across the board and uses a sub optimal list.
However all is not lost. Unless you are a turd monkey to all your opponents you should need to play Super fluffy lists.
By this I mean using things you have never used before but have sat on your shelf for 5 editions. In example making company command squads have a medic, regimental banner, and vox casters. Ffs add vox casters to all your infantry units.
Use grenade launchers again and auto cannons/heavy bolters instead of spamming plasmaguns and lascannons....
If you don't you are pretty much a huge asshat. Use fluffy command tanks like vanquishers, instead of spamming punishers and executioners. Use veterans with melta again instead of spamming plasmagun scions which NO one ever used till 8th. A 30 man conscript squad with a single commissar is fluffy and cool 4x 30 man conscript squads means you are TFG.
All those cool models that guard had like platoon banner bearers should be used. Basic ogryn are cool; Celestine or guilliman are not....
Don't be the turd monkey in your flgs play fluffy not douchey
Colonel Cross wrote: Anyone thinking this codex is OP needs to watch the newest Tabletop Tactics video. Pretty solid guard list against a Death Guard army.
Don't have the attention span for 4 hours, the army list was kinda well... look I wasn't saying the codex was so OP you could literally just take anything from it and do well. None of us thought the codex would somehow make the death strike a good idea.
Do they talk enough I could glean relevant information with it in the background? I might try that.
Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.
Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.
Since plasma increased in points, did powerlevel shift for scions or veterans?
Let's see veterans are still elites and not obj secured like scions.
Veterans still need a transport instead of air dropping 9in away in rapid fire range like scions
And plasma guns are still increased for veterans....
Nope vets still suck....
Oh and plasmaguns also get a free shot on a 6+ in a scions hands.
Oh and now people are also talking about since MT are an infantry regiment. Using defense search lights to give them +1 to hit. Then using thier order instead for reroll to wound and benefiting from a roll of 5+ for a free shot.... nope MT are still significantly better then veterans.
Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.
All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.
Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.
I'm glad because all the Imperial Guard players of my group use lists that for now where pretty crappy (A Catachan army with veterans and infantry squads with flamers, hellhounds and sentinels with heavy flamers, a Cadian army with Leman Russ spam and one or two baneblades, etc... ) but now will be actually competitive. And they will stop feeling like stupid people for not spamming conscripts and scions with plasma.
The funny thing is that of all of us, I'm the one that uses more Tempestus Scions. And I don't even play Imperial Guard But in 30 scions ( 4x5 squads and two command squads + 2 Tempestus Lords) I only have 4 plasma, 2 in one comand squad and two in one Scion squad.
So much salt in here for no reason. Oh boo-hoo Guard now have more viable units than just conscript and scion spam. Things that were almost completely not worth taking are going to show up all over the place now whaaaa.
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.
Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.
So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.
Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.
Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.
Stus67 wrote: So much salt in here for no reason. Oh boo-hoo Guard now have more viable units than just conscript and scion spam. Things that were almost completely not worth taking are going to show up all over the place now whaaaa.
Wouldn't be so bad if your broken units had been fixed, but this codex basically buffed every unit, even the broken ones, with the sole exception of plasma scions. It's an OP codex, broken and not even comparable to previous codices. Sorry you dislike being told the truth.
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.
Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.
So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.
Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.
Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.
Stus67 wrote: So much salt in here for no reason. Oh boo-hoo Guard now have more viable units than just conscript and scion spam. Things that were almost completely not worth taking are going to show up all over the place now whaaaa.
Wouldn't be so bad if your broken units had been fixed, but this codex basically buffed every unit, even the broken ones, with the sole exception of plasma scions. It's an OP codex, broken and not even comparable to previous codices. Sorry you dislike being told the truth.
There's less of a reason to take Conscripts now. I don't even plan on running a single squad, one at the most just to play with SITNW. I've diverted most of the points I used for Scions into my Leman Russes which were literally collecting dust. They literally leveled out the broken units by fixing the gak units and making them worth taking again. Guard haven't been this diverse and fluffy in over a decade. Would you have rather them make Conscripts cost 10 points a model, remove Comissars from the Codex, and make Plasma Scions cost more than terminators?
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I can say is that I am really happy my gaming group discourages power gaming, but also that there is only one Guard player.
There isn't much in the Guard codex that isn't good. I imagine many very "fluffy" lists will find themselves trouncing the opposition without particularly trying to do so.
Stus67 wrote: There's less of a reason to take Conscripts now. I don't even plan on running a single squad, one at the most just to play with SITNW. I've diverted most of the points I used for Scions into my Leman Russes which were literally collecting dust. They literally leveled out the broken units by fixing the gak units and making them worth taking again. Guard haven't been this diverse and fluffy in over a decade. Would you have rather them make Conscripts cost 10 points a model, remove Comissars from the Codex, and make Plasma Scions cost more than terminators?
I mean, you can take IG squads over conscripts, just like you could before the codex. It's going to weaken your army for no real reason, but you can do it. It also wasn't just buffs to bad units, basilisks got a buff despite already being solid. You are ignoring the warlord traits and relics which are absurdly good compared to every previous codex. As for the tanks, getting really powerful doctrines on them is another bit of power creep that seems somewhat arbitrary.
There is some good I admit. I need to do point comparisons still, but eyeballing it I think Russes are fairly reasonable for cost right now which is good. Scions did get a nerf which is also pretty solid.
It's just all this other garbage shaping up to create a mess. Really buffing ranged artillery and tanks but with rule changes and point changes plus doctrines with no nerfs whatsoever to your ability to keep them protected, indeed conscripts are now better at being ablative wounds than they were pre codex, isn't good balance. When we factor all the other bits in... yeah this codex isn't balanced. At all.
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I can say is that I am really happy my gaming group discourages power gaming, but also that there is only one Guard player.
There isn't much in the Guard codex that isn't good. I imagine many very "fluffy" lists will find themselves trouncing the opposition without particularly trying to do so.
Eh, considering how many people did and do like to use mechanized guard, which still appears to be pretty awful (but that's more on the edition than any flaws with the codex), I wouldn't expect it to get too bad. I actually think the list most people want to use (normal guard squads, russes, and some artillery) should merely be at the upper end of good, at least that's my first impression.
casvalremdeikun wrote: All I can say is that I am really happy my gaming group discourages power gaming, but also that there is only one Guard player.
There isn't much in the Guard codex that isn't good. I imagine many very "fluffy" lists will find themselves trouncing the opposition without particularly trying to do so.
Eh, considering how many people did and do like to use mechanized guard, which still appears to be pretty awful (but that's more on the edition than any flaws with the codex), I wouldn't expect it to get too bad. I actually think the list most people want to use (normal guard squads, russes, and some artillery) should merely be at the upper end of good, at least that's my first impression.
Thats the point I was trying to make, about why this Codex is actually good for the non-competitive. They have made many, many units and different ways to play Imperial Guard viable. Ones more strong than others, for example i think with all the buffs Baneblades didn't needed that 40 point drop, okay, but basically everything is in some shape or form viable (Ignoring veterans, that aren't actually that bad, just overshadowed by other options still. Maybe sentinels are still in the low end but with all the buffs and stratagems, I think they'll have their place)
I'm sure that GW could remove all together Conscripts and 90% of IG players wouldn't mind. It will mostly affect Tournament competitive players that did jump into the Imperial-soup bandwagon, but those will just jump to the next hotness so no damage deal to anyone.
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.
Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.
So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.
Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.
Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.
.
Well the Death Guard brought less than an optimal list and proceeded to fight a list which included 7 vehicles and like 60 troops. And the only thing the IG player did to hold back, was list build. Which, as I said earlier, it wasn't the strongest list one could bring. I mean, the Deathstrike is worthless and yet he still got it to do 8 mortal wounds with stratagems and rerolls. Blah. Additionally, the fact the Death Guard DIDN'T just melt when he had a 12" bubble of reroll everything is a testament to their hardiness and the inability of guard to still damage heavy infantry and vehicles. You add Mortarion into that army and actually bring some synergy and it would have been a different game altogether. Just wait and see, the only complaints people are going to have about guard is from hardcore gamers who want to WAAC.
Sledgehammer wrote: No more camo cloaks or carapace for veterans or commanders =(
Is that surprising? No kit for that, hence Rough Riders being gone as well.
It's funny that they made a point of talking about how even rough riders were worth using back when they were previewing 8th edition, before dropping them in the codex.
Galas wrote: Thats the point I was trying to make, about why this Codex is actually good for the non-competitive. They have made many, many units and different ways to play Imperial Guard viable. Ones more strong than others, for example i think with all the buffs Baneblades didn't needed that 40 point drop, okay, but basically everything is in some shape or form viable (Ignoring veterans, that aren't actually that bad, just overshadowed by other options still. Maybe sentinels are still in the low end but with all the buffs and stratagems, I think they'll have their place)
I'm sure that GW could remove all together Conscripts and 90% of IG players wouldn't mind. It will mostly affect Tournament competitive players that did jump into the Imperial-soup bandwagon, but those will just jump to the next hotness so no damage deal to anyone.
Upper end of good does still mean I think it's got a bit of codex creep going on, particularly the warlord trait/relic section. Most armies will be fighting an uphill battle unless they are optimized. It just isn't so bad that these run of the mill lists will auto win/stomp most other armies.
Of course my anger might be somewhat mellowed by the fact I started list building around using a small IG detachment to supplement my main army, and I find myself rather happy with the result. I'm easily won over it seems.
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Colonel Cross wrote: Well the Death Guard brought less than an optimal list and proceeded to fight a list which included 7 vehicles and like 60 troops. And the only thing the IG player did to hold back, was list build. Which, as I said earlier, it wasn't the strongest list one could bring. I mean, the Deathstrike is worthless and yet he still got it to do 8 mortal wounds with stratagems and rerolls. Blah. Additionally, the fact the Death Guard DIDN'T just melt when he had a 12" bubble of reroll everything is a testament to their hardiness and the inability of guard to still damage heavy infantry and vehicles. You add Mortarion into that army and actually bring some synergy and it would have been a different game altogether. Just wait and see, the only complaints people are going to have about guard is from hardcore gamers who want to WAAC.
He didn't utilize his reroll bubble properly, stretched his army way to wide, didn't keep his commissar in range of his screening units in front of his tanks (and only took one commissar but that's lost building I guess), didn't keep the screen positioned properly, and made pask his warlord which really just not a good idea on so many levels. Not to mention how bad things would've been if the DG player didn't get first turn. Oh, and just FYI a toughness 5 unit with a 2+ save due to cover is a worse target for a punisher than toughness 7 with a 3+. That one is counter intuitive enough it isn't really his fault I admit.
As for DG, while we can be tough, PM aren't really (except versus the punisher because str 5 no AP is basically the weapon they were made to tank). We've discussed this at length in the DG tactics page, I'd rather not go to in depth but honestly our tough units are almost exclusively demon engines and terminators. Everything else is fairly average durability to cost wise.
As for the complaints bit... you really shouldn't be judging it on this video. That's all I'll say for now, but it really wasn't playing to the strengths of the army or the high points of the new codex at all.
Hulksmash wrote: Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.
All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.
Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.
What's the Taurox buff that you expect that the Chapter Approved will immediately nerf? Isn't Chapter Approved supposed to be about improving a few core rules and the and matched play rules? You expect them to go through all the indexes and all the codices unit by unit, turning everything upside down again in that one article? You're saying this new codex will be current and up to date for how long?
Hulksmash wrote: Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.
All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.
Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.
What's the Taurox buff that you expect that the Chapter Approved will immediately nerf? Isn't Chapter Approved supposed to be about improving a few core rules and the and matched play rules? You expect them to go through all the indexes and all the codices unit by unit, turning everything upside down again in that one article? You're saying this new codex will be current and up to date for how long?
Chapter approved is points adjustments and other stuff that doesn't matter as much.
Hulksmash wrote: Christ there is a ton of whining in here. So the current stuff didn't actually get better. The new abilities are offset by the big 3 (mortars, scions, and conscripts) nerfs. Almost 50% increase in drop plas command squads and a 25% bump for the troop variant. Conscripts getting orders 50% of the time. And mortars going up just under 25% per model is solid. Oddly taurox got a tiny buff but i expect thatll be fixed with the release of chapter approved. Since that actually is just getting ready for the printers.
All that's happening is other stuff is viable now. Leman Russ can be used. Super heavies the same. Essentially alternate actual ig armies may be usable.
Imperial soup won't change and got slightly worse. So why the complaining? Overall csm got a way bigger bump from their book and chaos soup is plain ugly nowadays. Overall I'd hold off worrying about it until after chapter approved. I think essentially up its release nothi by before now had anything but the most remedial of adjustments and even the are only for things that werent good not that were already good.
What's the Taurox buff that you expect that the Chapter Approved will immediately nerf? Isn't Chapter Approved supposed to be about improving a few core rules and the and matched play rules? You expect them to go through all the indexes and all the codices unit by unit, turning everything upside down again in that one article? You're saying this new codex will be current and up to date for how long?
Chapter approved is points adjustments and other stuff that doesn't matter as much.
But they plan to do this 'points adjustment' only once per year? So if a codex gets released in November, it immediately gets adjusted, but if it gets released after Christmas, we're stuck with whatever we get for a year?
I'm just curious. In my mind if they plan to invalidate their products few weeks after release, they should at least be consistent. I'm surprised anyone would still pay for a codex, considering the rules therein won't be game legal. In fact, in a game where it takes people months to assemble forces, I'm not sure this model will ever really work. Just when you get your forces ready, it's no longer legal for play.
No reason to buy a codex except, ya know, for all the actual unit and army rules. If it's anything like aos 99.9% will be point changes. They've officially only changed a single unit in 2 years of generals handbook.
And yes, I expect a point adjustment for taurox along with other items. As for the model I think that it's actually great.We're no longer stuck for a decade at times with point values and for anyone other than tourney players it'll encourage people to build more all around armies since the outliers are more likely to get reigned in.
Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.
However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.
However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.
However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.
I know it's off-topic, but really if they want to use a living ruleset system they need to ditch rulebooks (just make them fluff books, campaign ideas) and have one online ruleset for matched play with the updated points and rules.
Played non-codex guard again today, they are going to be brutal with these new rules. I'm scared to think what the Eldar book will be like.
Dionysodorus wrote: This seems like a pretty different sort of position than what I took you to be staking out earlier. So, to be clear, I do not think that Guard players should just try to maximize the number of Infantry models they have on the table. I do think they should make use of the buffs they've got access to, etc. I'm a little confused at your post here because you start off by saying "points aren't everything" and then you proceed to engage in highly artificial mathhammer about incomparable situations that rarely actually arise. Certainly nothing here looks like an argument against the position that Infantry are one of the best Troops choices in the game. Like, you're comparing the damage output of a Berzerker that magically finds itself in CC to the same points in Guardsmen and remarking on how it does more damage (although actually the Guardsmen do okay). Why do we care about this at all? I don't understand why you think this shows that Berzerkers, as opposed to Guardsmen, are "good enough to do much more than hold objectives". I don't understand why this means Guardsmen aren't really, really good.
Ok, to make it simple: I think my main point is that however good/OP the codex may be and however cost-efficient guardsmen may be, they still remain unimpressive on the board. They're still one of the most fragile troops in the game, and cost-efficiency works on army composition, not indvidual units.
And it's interesting that this was the point that people chose to address... Rather than the other ones about guard lists without conscripts or Celestine...
I think that this codex won't be so good that people end up trouncing their opponents without an effort. The idea that the codex is *that* broken is ridiculous.
gungo wrote: Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.
However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.
However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.
However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.
The book isn't broken. Two units are. It otherwise has excellent internal balance. However, only five armies now have codex's whilst everybody else has the Index, which means that yes the power levels are skewered towards the Guard... FOR NOW.
I know people will see this as a bias post, given my avatar and title, but this really is the kind of book GW should strive for with ALL future codexes, where there is excellent internal balance where every just about every unit is viable, instead of "take Conscripts and Scions and nothing else because we've got two REALLY good units and the rest is okay-to-crap" from before. 40k has suffered big time for years with this and now we MIGHT finally be moving towards more balanced books where 80% of models aren't useless junk it would suck if things got rolled back.
Now whether it's just a lucky coincidence this time around and every other army is going to suffer from the same problems as before- well, we'll see. But for once I'm going to try and be optimistic.
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah they discuss a bunch of stuff, mostly at the beginning and end.
Other than the deathstrike, the colonel created quite a solid list, which isn't WAAC and yet wasn't low tier either, and played it exceptionally well. And it still was incredibly close. Death Guard are just THAT tough to kill.
So, out of curiosity, were you banking on no one bothering to watch it or did you actually think it was a close game? It only looked close due to absurdly good luck with objectives giving the DG maelstrom points even though they'd effectively lost by the end of turn two. By the end of turn one the DG had barley touched the IG army and had lost a fourth of their forces, by the end of turn two they'd still made no lasting damage and had barely gotten through the chaff with half their army gone. Also they aren't tough at all, at least nothing he was running was, do I need to point out PM are easier to kill for their points than normal guard? They are. They aren't even tougher than normal CSM for cost.
Also, no, he did not play it well. At all. He was clearly holding back and said as much in the video at one point. If you want an actual break down of what he did wrong I'll give it, but c'mon he was trying not to totally stomp the guy and they both knew it.
Seriously, I won't say this should be used as a gauge for how strong either army is, because if you run either of these lists you aren't even making an effort, but it wasn't close at all.
.
Well the Death Guard brought less than an optimal list and proceeded to fight a list which included 7 vehicles and like 60 troops. And the only thing the IG player did to hold back, was list build. Which, as I said earlier, it wasn't the strongest list one could bring. I mean, the Deathstrike is worthless and yet he still got it to do 8 mortal wounds with stratagems and rerolls. Blah. Additionally, the fact the Death Guard DIDN'T just melt when he had a 12" bubble of reroll everything is a testament to their hardiness and the inability of guard to still damage heavy infantry and vehicles. You add Mortarion into that army and actually bring some synergy and it would have been a different game altogether. Just wait and see, the only complaints people are going to have about guard is from hardcore gamers who want to WAAC.
Sorry mate, I watched that whole thing last night while I was painting and that game was entertaining but a complete joke as far as balance was concerned. As soon as you see a deathdtrike, 2 eradicators, and sniper command squads you should have been clued in. Even then he did absolutely moronic things like scout move his 3 individual sentinals all in a clump about 9 inches away from the entire deathguad army when he was going 2nd. Then he had his line about 12" up-field on his deployment edge for no reason other then to not table the other guy before he lost a single model. If you didn't read between the lines that they engineered this game to be closer then it normally would have been then I don't know what to say to you. I mean it didn't annoy you that he literally never used a CP to reroll crucial failed to hit or wound rolls for his first few turns? It was so obvious I had to laugh. Thats not me laughing at them either btw, was a great production, but to somehow use it as evidence that this book isn't trololol levels of good is pretty daft.
gungo wrote:Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.
However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.
However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.
However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.
You are contradicting yourself, calling Guard as broken and then naming only units that are not.
Except for Scions and Conscripts prior to the codex no other unit was called OP. But a lot of other units were so bad that they never would be taken. You named yourself some that still suck after the codex.
The only purpose of conscripts is to take wounds, what else should they do? They were never intended to be an offensive power, which they were with FRSRF. That got rightfully nerfed by lowering their unit number and make it harder to get orders.
If Plasma guns really cost 13pts for bs3+ models than scions are not slighty but a lot more expensive than before. And as it is required to get the regimental tactics you can only get 3 scion command squads in a detachement and that will require you to take 3 scion non-command squads.
I guess no one will loose their regimental tactics while mixing scions in other detachements as it was the case prior to the tactics. That would limit the spam.
Now some general questions.
Afaik in every preview of a unit the warhammer community did with the regimental previews, they announced a special ability or rule for that unit.
For the chimera they did nothing. Anyone who could take a look at the codex, is there really nothing to the chimera?
Tank orders can still only be given by tank commanders and only to leman russ?
I'll reiterate that, as someone mostly interested in playing Sisters and Eldar, I don't think this codex looks simply broken. I do think, as I've said before, that this codex appears to make Guard easily the strongest solo faction in the game. But it doesn't appear to me to add all that much to Imperial Soup, which is obviously the major concern, competitive balance-wise. Scion (and presumably soon Elysian) plasma got nerfed, which is a big deal. Conscripts got a bit better if you're taking them in a pure Guard detachment, although this is at least a little limiting if you also want Guilliman (a LoW) and Celestine and a squad of Sisters and some Assassins. I suspect that non-Guilliman Soup got somewhat better, thanks in large part to the excellent warlord traits and relics available here. However, it doesn't strike me as likely to be that much better than Chaos Soup.
Maybe what's going on here is just that GW simply does not intend for people to look at Guard as a single faction. The faction is Imperium. The other major faction is Chaos. There are two small-ish factions under the Aeldari and Tyranid/Cult/Guard umbrellas, and then there are a couple of bit players (Necrons, Orks, Tau). It would not be crazy for GW to care only about balancing Imperial and Chaos Soup against these other factions, while totally ignoring meaningless comparisons between pure Guard armies and pure Death Guard armies. Now, of course it would be surprising if the goal here is for Codex: Orks to be competitive with Imperial Soup, but it's plausible that they're mostly thinking about Imperium vs Chaos.
The big losers here seem to me to be people who want to play with and against one-subfaction armies. It is not a good day to be a Black Templars player. In some ways the Guard codex is fantastic for this: a bunch of different kinds of Catachan armies are going to be really solid. But of course they're a lot more solid than many Space Marine Chapter, Chaos Legion, Grey Knight, AdMech, and Death Guard armies. It'll be really interesting to see what they do with the much less soup-oriented Tyranid and Eldar codices, though I suppose the real test will be when we get to one of the 3 friendless xenos factions.
Hollow wrote: ...If only GW's design team were smart like you...
He has a point. 30 years and they still haven't figured it out...
Figured out what? How to create and maintain the most popular, prolific and profitable tabletop miniatures game on the planet? Seems to me like they got that ALL figured out.
Its about dollars and cents not balanced armies and rules ladies and gentlemen.
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Mymearan wrote: This codex is a trash fire. So glad none of my regular opponents play Guard.
As a long time guard player comments like this erk the gak out of me. Not everyone is spamming conscripts etc.
It's also kind of funny the consensus is they are OP and thank god you do not play against them. Come on rise up to a challenge for once. Figure out how to beat them instead of complaining.
gainsay wrote: As a long time guard player comments like this erk the gak out of me. Not everyone is spamming conscripts etc.
It's also kind of funny the consensus is they are OP and thank god you do not play against them. Come on rise up to a challenge for once. Figure out how to beat them instead of complaining.
First off, even without abusing the broken units yes the other bits of the codex is literally just better than previous armies have had available. Which is silly.
Second, most of us already know what could or could not be done to beat such a list. At a glance, I'm not beating an optimized guard list with my CSM, I might with my DG if I build for it, and I might with admech if I ally in a small guard detachment. The former and latter mean this edition now starts to remind me of 7th more, when some armies were simply on different levels and you often had to ally in other armies just to have a shot against some single faction armies. Those are not good things to be making me remember.
gungo wrote:Guard is broken gak and people defending it are absolutely crazy to think otherwise. This is exactly 7th ed craftworld elder. They already are the strongest tournament army and will be much worse after this codex. Even friendly games need to purposefully use lesss ideal units and hope your opponent plays an optimized list for there to be a balanced games.
However not every single unit is overpower some are just ok and some only decent is very specific setups. For example melta vets in chimeras or classic mech guard are only ok. Still overpriced chimera, still elite basic vets and melta is still not plasmaguns. Sentinels are still weak slow vehicles that can't move and shoot heavy like leman russes or double shoot or whatever. Deathstrike is still gak becuase doing a bunch of mortal wounds to a single unit around turn 4 or later is basically to late if it even fires during the game. Grenade launchers are still and continue to be the worst special weapon.
However barring the above and a few unit upgrades like banners and medics there is some very broken combos. The conscript nerf did nothing to stop conscripts from being the cheap durable wall it was. Plasma scions and tauroxs while slightly more expensive and stronger offensively making them better suicide plasmaspam and Gatling/missile spam units. Basic infantry are better across the board. Artillery is better across the board. Guard psykers which were already spammed and the cheapest in game are just ridiculously better.
However saying this I think we are going to see a strong return to a guard favorite of tank companies. I think tanks will be extremely competitive ffs leman russes are now objective secured. Tank companies may not win a bunch of tournaments, but it's going to wreck face at your flgs. For tournaments conscripts and plasmascions and primaris and astorpath psykers are going nowhere. I also fully expect some absolutely broken combos like 2++ ogryns running around like mini 40pt Magnus models.
You are contradicting yourself, calling Guard as broken and then naming only units that are not.
Except for Scions and Conscripts prior to the codex no other unit was called OP. But a lot of other units were so bad that they never would be taken. You named yourself some that still suck after the codex.
The only purpose of conscripts is to take wounds, what else should they do? They were never intended to be an offensive power, which they were with FRSRF. That got rightfully nerfed by lowering their unit number and make it harder to get orders.
If Plasma guns really cost 13pts for bs3+ models than scions are not slighty but a lot more expensive than before. And as it is required to get the regimental tactics you can only get 3 scion command squads in a detachement and that will require you to take 3 scion non-command squads.
I guess no one will loose their regimental tactics while mixing scions in other detachements as it was the case prior to the tactics. That would limit the spam.
Now some general questions.
Afaik in every preview of a unit the warhammer community did with the regimental previews, they announced a special ability or rule for that unit.
For the chimera they did nothing. Anyone who could take a look at the codex, is there really nothing to the chimera?
Tank orders can still only be given by tank commanders and only to leman russ?
Do you know what contradiction means?
Saying these handful of units aren't broken but everything else is really bad. While the army was already winning almost every tournament and then got upgrades across the board is not a contradiction.
Your head is so far in the sand if you don't think this codex is flat out bonkers broken!!
Unlesss you are playing a super fluffy good looking army with medics banners and voxs and no spam and lots of classic non imperial soup units or pure guard mech melta vet units you are going to wreck face in any friendly game where your opponent is not trying to play competitive. And in tournaments majority guard armies (with a handful of imperial soup units) are winning... they already were but it's only got much worse.
All seriousness as I don't follow tournaments enough(they don't interest me):
Were there legitimately 100% Guard lists topping tournaments? My understanding was that it was Imperial soup lists winning. Conscripts and Artillery might have been present but that doesn't automatically make it an IG list.
/quote]
Do you know what contradiction means?
Saying these handful of units aren't broken but everything else is really bad. While the army was already winning almost every tournament and then got upgrades across the board is not a contradiction.
Your head is so far in the sand if you don't think this codex is flat out bonkers broken!!
Anymore salt?
To be honest it could have been worse. They could have ended up with -1 to hit or rapid fire ranges of 18" combined with ni negatives for moving with heavy weapons and firing on the move. Then being given discustingly resilient!
Kanluwen wrote: All seriousness as I don't follow tournaments enough(they don't interest me):
Were there legitimately 100% Guard lists topping tournaments? My understanding was that it was Imperial soup lists winning. Conscripts and Artillery might have been present but that doesn't automatically make it an IG list.
there was lists with 90% of the models guard and token Celestine or guilliman. There is no reason to not play these units when multi detachments are allowed and guard is doing all the heavy lifting.
gainsay wrote: As a long time guard player comments like this erk the gak out of me. Not everyone is spamming conscripts etc.
It's also kind of funny the consensus is they are OP and thank god you do not play against them. Come on rise up to a challenge for once. Figure out how to beat them instead of complaining.
First off, even without abusing the broken units yes the other bits of the codex is literally just better than previous armies have had available. Which is silly.
Second, most of us already know what could or could not be done to beat such a list. At a glance, I'm not beating an optimized guard list with my CSM, I might with my DG if I build for it, and I might with admech if I ally in a small guard detachment. The former and latter mean this edition now starts to remind me of 7th more, when some armies were simply on different levels and you often had to ally in other armies just to have a shot against some single faction armies. Those are not good things to be making me remember.
Guard (not the douchebags spamming hundreds on conscripts etc) are far from unbeatable dude. Work on your play skills.
gainsay wrote: As a long time guard player comments like this erk the gak out of me. Not everyone is spamming conscripts etc.
It's also kind of funny the consensus is they are OP and thank god you do not play against them. Come on rise up to a challenge for once. Figure out how to beat them instead of complaining.
First off, even without abusing the broken units yes the other bits of the codex is literally just better than previous armies have had available. Which is silly.
Second, most of us already know what could or could not be done to beat such a list. At a glance, I'm not beating an optimized guard list with my CSM, I might with my DG if I build for it, and I might with admech if I ally in a small guard detachment. The former and latter mean this edition now starts to remind me of 7th more, when some armies were simply on different levels and you often had to ally in other armies just to have a shot against some single faction armies. Those are not good things to be making me remember.
Guard (not the douchebags spamming hundreds on conscripts etc) are far from unbeatable dude. Work on your play skills.
Spoken like a true Eldar player.
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Kanluwen wrote: All seriousness as I don't follow tournaments enough(they don't interest me):
Were there legitimately 100% Guard lists topping tournaments? My understanding was that it was Imperial soup lists winning. Conscripts and Artillery might have been present but that doesn't automatically make it an IG list.
Outside Celestine and Roboute, they're basically 100% (and the Celestine and Roboute will actually vary, sometimes being one or the other). You can get Assassins and stuff now and then though.
Try disallowing Elysian bs and Earthshaker Carriages, then comp you can only take max 3 detachments and max 3 of the same unit, and all of a sudden the most absurd stuff is out.
Especially now as Scions took a heavy points increase and Conscripts were adjusted.
AM will remain competitive, and so do many other armies. As far as Guilliman and Celestine are concerned, they can be found in SM lists too, and once both go up in points about 25 to 50% we'll be in a good place.
Comparing AM to years of Eldar/Tau domination is absurd and insulting to that era.
gainsay wrote: Guard (not the douchebags spamming hundreds on conscripts etc) are far from unbeatable dude. Work on your play skills.
Okay again, a good guard army now involves conscripts, not infantry. If you don't use conscripts to any significant degree yes I won't have as much issue. If eldar didn't use scatter bikes and tau avoided the riptide/stormsurge they were much more manageable as well. I'm just not going to assume people as a whole will take deliberately subpar lists.
I find this whole "get good" line of reasoning from people who openly admit to running subpar armies weird. Not even subpar in the sense of not running a soup list, people openly talking about how they plan to avoid the better units in their codex because of what they find fluffy or fun. No one is particularly worried about that type of army, unless your preferred army happens to stumble into an absurdly powerful list.
Since plasma increased in points, did powerlevel shift for scions or veterans?
Let's see veterans are still elites and not obj secured like scions.
Veterans still need a transport instead of air dropping 9in away in rapid fire range like scions
And plasma guns are still increased for veterans....
Nope vets still suck....
Oh and plasmaguns also get a free shot on a 6+ in a scions hands.
Oh and now people are also talking about since MT are an infantry regiment. Using defense search lights to give them +1 to hit. Then using thier order instead for reroll to wound and benefiting from a roll of 5+ for a free shot.... nope MT are still significantly better then veterans.
But what is their power level difference? You keep acting like plasma is King when every weapon option costs the same accross the board. I know 5 scions is 3 powerlevel, the same as 10 guard or 20 conscripts in the index. Did these numbers change? How many p.l. do the veterans have to have a chance to rapid fire plasma as a 30" gun, or an 18" rapid fire range?
Please, answer my question if you can instead of using it as a place to continue complaining about scions.
I've looked at the guard lists winning tournaments. It's conscripts, Earthshaker Platforms, with Scions or Elysians. No regular folks playing at your flgs are going to be running that garbage. Conscripts, yeah maybe. Scions, most likely. But not in those numbers. And it was that full combo that was winning tournaments. I'm sure the meta will shift slightly with this codex. But I'm betting only to remove Scions and to include only Elysians haha. Don't get your panties in a twist unless you play tournaments. At which point, I have no sympathy for you.
Therion wrote: Hyperbole nonsense about Guard winning it all.
Try disallowing Elysian bs and Earthshaker Carriages, then comp you can only take max 3 detachments and max 3 of the same unit, and all of a sudden the most absurd stuff is out.
Especially now as Scions took a heavy points increase and Conscripts were adjusted.
AM will remain competitive, and so do many other armies. As far as Guilliman and Celestine are concerned, they can be found in SM lists too, and once both go up in points about 25 to 50% we'll be in a good place.
Comparing AM to years of Eldar/Tau domination is absurd and insulting to that era.
So basically replace Elysians with Scions, Earthshakers with improved Basilisks or Russes. Boy, that was REALLY hard.
Oh, and you gotta hamstring yourself by doing Highlander-lite.
Hollow wrote: and what if your army does stumble upon an absurdly powerful list? What's the problem?
Then it is the reason I'm optimizing my army? It's also an issue that a singular army can force other armies to turn into soup lists if they want to win, as at that point balance has been lost. Properly built mono guard should beat any other singular army, codex or index, at this moment. Having armies too weak to stand on their own was a major issue in 7th that mostly was avoided in early 8th, ignoring deliberately trimmed down factions like custodes or inquisition.
Colonel Cross wrote: I've looked at the guard lists winning tournaments. It's conscripts, Earthshaker Platforms, with Scions or Elysians. No regular folks playing at your flgs are going to be running that garbage. Conscripts, yeah maybe. Scions, most likely. But not in those numbers. And it was that full combo that was winning tournaments. I'm sure the meta will shift slightly with this codex. But I'm betting only to remove Scions and to include only Elysians haha. Don't get your panties in a twist unless you play tournaments. At which point, I have no sympathy for you.
I'd point out earthshakers got a direct buff and some regiment tactics benefit them immensely. Conscripts again can be even tougher than they were before. And guard got a lot of new tools due to buffs across most of their units.
So again, mostly buffs, the only real nerf was to scions and I think the buffs will more than compensate for that.
Just saw this thread. I am not in a mood to read 26 pages. Has it been mentioned how this will apply to Genestealer Cults? I mean if going by the Index 2 book, Genestealer Cults can use any keywords that have Astra Militarium in it correct?
So not being a IG/AM player but trying to start a Genestealer Cult army, can I buy this codex and use all the units in it?
True the additional point of AP helps the Basilisk tremendously. Those tourney lists are running like 6 Earthshakers and several Basilisks. I have 1 freaking Basilisk and it's rarely done anything due to its previous ap and D3 damage. My 3 Lascannon in my infantry squads have done more damage in my games. Idk it will definitely help me out, sorry if you play people with a half dozen of them? I've played guard for like 18 years lol. I'm just going to continue playing them my way. I'll probably use LRs again so that's fun. I bought 1k of ad mech because I couldn't kill vehicles or flyers. Maybe now I won't need them. So there was an issue before this codex for normal people who aren't buying FWBS.
gainsay wrote: Guard (not the douchebags spamming hundreds on conscripts etc) are far from unbeatable dude. Work on your play skills.
Okay again, a good guard army now involves conscripts, not infantry. If you don't use conscripts to any significant degree yes I won't have as much issue. If eldar didn't use scatter bikes and tau avoided the riptide/stormsurge they were much more manageable as well. I'm just not going to assume people as a whole will take deliberately subpar lists.
I find this whole "get good" line of reasoning from people who openly admit to running subpar armies weird. Not even subpar in the sense of not running a soup list, people openly talking about how they plan to avoid the better units in their codex because of what they find fluffy or fun. No one is particularly worried about that type of army, unless your preferred army happens to stumble into an absurdly powerful list.
A lot of the complaints on this forum are far beyond conscripts. I have an X-1 record using the index with a "sub par" list whatever that means. My local tournament meta has WAAC people playing razor wing flock spam, brimstone horrors the storm ravens now conscripts whatever is good at the time. infantry squads are quite good because people looking to counter conscripts get stifled by lots of infantry squads. I guess other guard armies are inherently good against conscripts to be fair tho.
Davor wrote: Just saw this thread. I am not in a mood to read 26 pages. Has it been mentioned how this will apply to Genestealer Cults? I mean if going by the Index 2 book, Genestealer Cults can use any keywords that have Astra Militarium in it correct?
So not being a IG/AM player but trying to start a Genestealer Cult army, can I buy this codex and use all the units in it?
I would say so.
Some will be more applicable than others, as I expect the Leman Russ variants that GSC can take as part of their Index list will get the same boosts as the Codex Guard ones(Grinding Advance, etc), but gaining the artillery and other similar things will be a big boost too.
Colonel Cross wrote: True the additional point of AP helps the Basilisk tremendously. Those tourney lists are running like 6 Earthshakers and several Basilisks. I have 1 freaking Basilisk and it's rarely done anything due to its previous ap and D3 damage. My 3 Lascannon in my infantry squads have done more damage in my games. Idk it will definitely help me out, sorry if you play people with a half dozen of them? I've played guard for like 18 years lol. I'm just going to continue playing them my way. I'll probably use LRs again so that's fun. I bought 1k of ad mech because I couldn't kill vehicles or flyers. Maybe now I won't need them. So there was an issue before this codex for normal people who aren't buying FWBS.
Why did you buy admech to deal with flyers and vehicles in 8th? 7th sure, 7th was awful about this and I want to avoid returning to it, but you had in house options for those in 8th. Fairly good ones. You say say you don't want to buy FW, but you can't even buy earthshaker or hydra batteries from FW anymore, all you do is take the guns off a normal basilisk/hydra and mount it onto something that looks like a turret base. You can even magnetize it to switch it between tank and battery mode, that's what I did with my R&H earthshakers.
It's also odd to me you've never seen IG players who focus on artillery at all, but that's a different story.
So yeah, that wasn't a situation you needed to go to another army for an optimal list. Nor but FW, unless you take issue with the price of their indices. Even if you outright refuse FW, you still could've stayed in house and, optimizing the units, been operating at around 80%-90% efficiency compared to the admech option. For comparison, our infantry is roughly half as effective as a screen compared to conscripts post codex, precodex we were even less, around a third as efficient. And that would be our best option, not our third place choice after we dismissed other better options our army had available.
Well in 7th I just used my Vendetta or Vulture to help against flyers. But they haven't done well this edition. And since I started 8th I've come across more flyers than ever. The Hydra is soooo bad it's pretty amusing.
There also aren't many IG players at my shop besides me. There's 2 teenagers who just have every tank but it's not like they are min maxing their lists. And until this codex drops their lists were garbage due to Chimeras and LRs.
I play tons of Tau, Ynnari, and space Marines. I'm playing against tons of flyers, hammerheads, land raiders, and knights. So yeah, the Basilisk and my LRs weren't cutting it for AT and anti air. And when I take my army to the store, nobody wants to play against 200+ infantry. So I needed vehicles to fill a role and the robots and Onagers did really well. Especially with their invuln saves.
Therion wrote: Hyperbole nonsense about Guard winning it all.
Try disallowing Elysian bs and Earthshaker Carriages, then comp you can only take max 3 detachments and max 3 of the same unit, and all of a sudden the most absurd stuff is out.
Especially now as Scions took a heavy points increase and Conscripts were adjusted.
AM will remain competitive, and so do many other armies. As far as Guilliman and Celestine are concerned, they can be found in SM lists too, and once both go up in points about 25 to 50% we'll be in a good place.
Comparing AM to years of Eldar/Tau domination is absurd and insulting to that era.
So basically replace Elysians with Scions, Earthshakers with improved Basilisks or Russes. Boy, that was REALLY hard.
Oh, and you gotta hamstring yourself by doing Highlander-lite.
You read what you post at all?
LMAO, as if Elysians and the new high points cost Scions would be anywhere near the same power level. Same play style, sure, but I wasn't aware you are demanding deep striking plasma to be removed from the game altogether.
Keep posting your hyperbole nonsense. I'm sure you'll find one or two guys willing to join you on your emo crusade.
Was hoping grenade launchers went down to 3 points to maybe give them a purpose... guess that didn't happen? Also, all this complaining about conscripts I find hillarious. Just spam assault cannons for SM or whatever anti-infantry you have. Counter their cheese spam with your cheese spam because tournaments are the land of cheese spam. My point is don't complain about cheese at a spam party, especially if you forgot to bring your cheese...spam. CHEESE SPAM!
Edit: I approve of this message...that the codex is not broken.
Colonel Cross wrote: Well in 7th I just used my Vendetta or Vulture to help against flyers. But they haven't done well this edition. And since I started 8th I've come across more flyers than ever. The Hydra is soooo bad it's pretty amusing.
There also aren't many IG players at my shop besides me. There's 2 teenagers who just have every tank but it's not like they are min maxing their lists. And until this codex drops their lists were garbage due to Chimeras and LRs.
I play tons of Tau, Ynnari, and space Marines. I'm playing against tons of flyers, hammerheads, land raiders, and knights. So yeah, the Basilisk and my LRs weren't cutting it for AT and anti air. And when I take my army to the store, nobody wants to play against 200+ infantry. So I needed vehicles to fill a role and the robots and Onagers did really well. Especially with their invuln saves.
Again, I make a distinction between "my army has no way to do this effectively" and "My army has multiple ways to do this effectively but I prefer the way another army does it".
Guard had multiple methods of dealing with this effectively, you just chose a different method due to... honestly I'm still kinda unclear on that. Most of your complaints seem to indicate you don't like guard, individually weaker models and units that can be spammed. Possibly a dislike of FW, even though most the FW options being discussed don't involve FW models themselves. Possibly just not being aware of the variety of options available and picking an obvious solution from a less cluttered army list.
Anyways, the point being the guard was one of the most self sufficient factions, and the new codex merely increases that. Other factions need to use allies, often IG allies, to be as competitive. That's both before and after the codex.
Apparently your definition of effective and mine are different. Why pay whatever a Hydra costs for BS 4 autocannon shots when I can pay damn near the same for an Icarus Onager? It was fun to build some new models and the ad mech are visually appealing.
Haha when was I complaining? I have been having more fun this edition than in years. What the hell makes you think I don't like my guard? I enjoy my masses of troops dying for the emperor. My only issue is it is time consuming to play with and pack up for the store. When my friends come over to play I have no issue with my massed infantry at home.
I dislike the abuse of FW models. I had an Earthshaker from many many years ago when they made them. Not sure what happened to it though.
Colonel Cross wrote: Apparently your definition of effective and mine are different. Why pay whatever a Hydra costs for BS 4 autocannon shots when I can pay damn near the same for an Icarus Onager? It was fun to build some new models and the ad mech are visually appealing.
I dislike the abuse of FW models. I had an Earthshaker from many many years ago when they made them. Not sure what happened to it though.
Are we talking points or cash? Because the hydra is about 2/3rds of the cost in both cash and points, and operates at roughly 2/3rds effectivensss as well. A hydra battery costs the same in cash as normal hydra (again, modeling tips), is half as expensive in points, and is 2/3rds as effective. So... yeah it's literally as effective. I have no idea what makes you think otherwise?
It sounds like you are having the issue a lot of people have with guard, they are weak but so cheap you can take them in bulk. If that's not your thing yeah guard probably isn't for you, I'm just not sure how someone running the army for a decade is bothered by it. You are ranged shooty orks in practice.
Abuse of FW? I'm not even sure how to respond to that. The idea FW is an imbalanced mess compared to the normal indices and codices has no real merit.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'll reiterate that, as someone mostly interested in playing Sisters and Eldar, I don't think this codex looks simply broken. I do think, as I've said before, that this codex appears to make Guard easily the strongest solo faction in the game. But it doesn't appear to me to add all that much to Imperial Soup, which is obviously the major concern, competitive balance-wise. Scion (and presumably soon Elysian) plasma got nerfed, which is a big deal. Conscripts got a bit better if you're taking them in a pure Guard detachment, although this is at least a little limiting if you also want Guilliman (a LoW) and Celestine and a squad of Sisters and some Assassins. I suspect that non-Guilliman Soup got somewhat better, thanks in large part to the excellent warlord traits and relics available here. However, it doesn't strike me as likely to be that much better than Chaos Soup.
Maybe what's going on here is just that GW simply does not intend for people to look at Guard as a single faction. The faction is Imperium. The other major faction is Chaos. There are two small-ish factions under the Aeldari and Tyranid/Cult/Guard umbrellas, and then there are a couple of bit players (Necrons, Orks, Tau). It would not be crazy for GW to care only about balancing Imperial and Chaos Soup against these other factions, while totally ignoring meaningless comparisons between pure Guard armies and pure Death Guard armies. Now, of course it would be surprising if the goal here is for Codex: Orks to be competitive with Imperial Soup, but it's plausible that they're mostly thinking about Imperium vs Chaos.
The big losers here seem to me to be people who want to play with and against one-subfaction armies. It is not a good day to be a Black Templars player. In some ways the Guard codex is fantastic for this: a bunch of different kinds of Catachan armies are going to be really solid. But of course they're a lot more solid than many Space Marine Chapter, Chaos Legion, Grey Knight, AdMech, and Death Guard armies. It'll be really interesting to see what they do with the much less soup-oriented Tyranid and Eldar codices, though I suppose the real test will be when we get to one of the 3 friendless xenos factions.
Diomecles wrote: Anybody know if the Tempestus lose their doctrine if they take air units like valkyries Or vendettas?
Valkyries and Vendettas are "Aeronautica Imperialis" units, which means they are Auxiliaries and do not detract from the Regiment's special rules.
It's important to remember that if you look at the Index? There's a specific list of things that are Militarum Tempestus:
Tempestor Prime
Tempestus Command Squad
Scions
Taurox Prime
Militarum Tempestus was in the Index explicitly called out as not being a "Regiment" that you can choose to replace "Regiment" with.
So if you took a Leman Russ as part of your Militarum Tempestus Detachment? It would break the Detachment's Regimental rules--but if you take a Valkyrie or Vendetta or a unit of Ratlings or a Primaris Psyker or a Commissar? It won't break them since all of those are considered Auxiliaries.
I have 6 original ones and 5 of them have participated in nearly all of my 8th edition games. My flgs doesn't allow using codex and index units of the same faction in tournaments. Which is sad in this 1 particular case.
Whys that Colonel Cross? GW itself have said in one of their FAQS that if one unit is not in the Codex but in the Index, you can use the Index entry with the more to date point costs for their weapons.
Galas wrote: Whys that Colonel Cross? GW itself have said in one of their FAQS that if one unit is not in the Codex but in the Index, you can use the Index entry with the more to date point costs for their weapons.
It's probably an attempt to cut down on chaos/imperial soup armies. They are good from the index alone but once you start using codexes full of traits and stratagems is can get even more absurd. I'd guess it wasn't an attempt to stop people from using things like bike characters and rough riders though I could be wrong
Yeah, my flgs has lots of added modifiers to our tournaments to make them less accessible to WAAC lists. For instance, our upcoming tournament only allows for 1 BN, no LoW, units in reserves deploy last, etc.
I don't understand how baning Index-only units like Rough Riders, Characters on Bikes, etc... from being used with their army stops WAAC lists, but well. It isn't my store
Kind of. They don't have any current models so they don't get rules in the codex. But GW has stated that you can continue to use the index for options that are not in the codex.
Galas wrote: I don't understand how baning Index-only units like Rough Riders, Characters on Bikes, etc... from being used with their army stops WAAC lists, but well. It isn't my store
I'm only assuming that is their reasoning. They didn't say what the purpose was behind that ruling. I know they don't want people Cherry picking something that may be better in the index but using everything else in the codex. In fact, I should ask them to see if they would allow units that no longer appear in the codex but are in the index.
That is disheartening. Would it be that hard for gw to release a basic rough rider kit? I mean come on, they have like 50 types of cavalry for the fantasy range...
The embers of my interest in 40k are cooling rapidly.
Heafstaag wrote: That is disheartening. Would it be that hard for gw to release a basic rough rider kit? I mean come on, they have like 50 types of cavalry for the fantasy range...
The embers of my interest in 40k are cooling rapidly.
I think they figure most IG players, like myself, don't care nearly as much about rough riders as we might about any huge number of other guard infantry.
Heafstaag wrote: That is disheartening. Would it be that hard for gw to release a basic rough rider kit? I mean come on, they have like 50 types of cavalry for the fantasy range...
The embers of my interest in 40k are cooling rapidly.
I think they figure most IG players, like myself, don't care nearly as much about rough riders as we might about any huge number of other guard infantry.
It would be pretty easy to make generate some interest and sales for rough riders...make a kit and give them more options.
Anyways, I still may convert up some rough riders, but I don't even see the point if they are just going to be relegated to a level just above squats.
Heafstaag wrote: So...why are rough riders not in the codex? WTF.
Units not included in the codex, but are included in the index, are still legal. Pretty sure this was common knowledge by now.
It is... but not including them in the codex suggest some long term planning that includes elimination. It seems particularly odd given the focus on dead army lines. What happens when (say, by the next guard codex) those old metals are completely gone from the webstore like the rough riders?
Big picture suggests 'yeah, sure, use the index for old stuff' is an attitude that won't last forever. It may not even last an edition cycle. Some 'General's Compendium' in a year or two will likely bring the hammer down.
Easier to eliminate them than make a new plastic kit, and as the Codex releases eventually make the Indices obsolete (except for Sisters players, naturally), they will cease printing them, rendering any units 'left behind' illegal.
And thus anything without a model will cease to have rules, and GW will be forever protected from the pernicious predations of the truly evil nature of third party bitz makers and other miniature companies. Purity will reign. GW will conquer all.
Heafstaag wrote: So...why are rough riders not in the codex? WTF.
Units not included in the codex, but are included in the index, are still legal. Pretty sure this was common knowledge by now.
It is... but not including them in the codex suggest some long term planning that includes elimination. It seems particularly odd given the focus on dead army lines. What happens when (say, by the next guard codex) those old metals are completely gone from the webstore like the rough riders?
Big picture suggests 'yeah, sure, use the index for old stuff' is an attitude that won't last forever. It may not even last an edition cycle. Some 'General's Compendium' in a year or two will likely bring the hammer down.
Davor wrote: Just saw this thread. I am not in a mood to read 26 pages. Has it been mentioned how this will apply to Genestealer Cults? I mean if going by the Index 2 book, Genestealer Cults can use any keywords that have Astra Militarium in it correct?
So not being a IG/AM player but trying to start a Genestealer Cult army, can I buy this codex and use all the units in it?
I would say so.
Some will be more applicable than others, as I expect the Leman Russ variants that GSC can take as part of their Index list will get the same boosts as the Codex Guard ones(Grinding Advance, etc), but gaining the artillery and other similar things will be a big boost too.
Thank you for the reply. Good to know.
Derek4real wrote:So whats GW's reason for not giving Astra Militarum a Limted Edition Codex?
How do they decide which factions get a Limited Edition Codex?
SilverAlien wrote: I already got my codices, CSM, admech, and DG. You know, the balanced ones that managed to mostly avoid codex creep.
I'd rather not imagine codex creep getting worse. I'd rather we actually had a balanced edition. I actually had hope they might manage it as well, which in retrospect was silly. This is wardian levels of cheese across most of the army, which honestly is something even tau/eldar didn't quite manage, you still had to cherry pick units there.
Id be surprised if rough riders got dropped forever as theres artwork of new rough riders in the 8th edition rulebook. Id be more inclined to believe theyre going to get a plastic kit with in-box rules at a much later date but as they currently dont have a model they havent been included
GW hate horses.
Just look at AoS -any unit riding horses are either not sold anymore, not included in updated rulebooks or get such crappy rules no one can include them in a serious game.
Instead you get IP protected demigryphs, bird cavalry, monster pigs, dragondogs etc.
The only hope Rough Riders have is if GW do a specific guard codex and release some weird lizard-riding cavalry. (i think thats a thing, but not sure about the source).
Oh, and why the heck would anyone want to use Rough Riders?
Also as to Rough Riders keep in mind that GW's release strategy is likely going to be very different going forward than it was in the past. Before it was Codex and then a ton of new models.
Now though they will have released all of the codexes in a short period of time. So they will probably do smaller individual unit releases going forward, which would allow them to release new Rough Riders with rules included or in PDF format.
Fayric wrote: GW hate horses.
Just look at AoS -any unit riding horses are either not sold anymore, not included in updated rulebooks or get such crappy rules no one can include them in a serious game.
Instead you get IP protected demigryphs, bird cavalry, monster pigs, dragondogs etc.
The only hope Rough Riders have is if GW do a specific guard codex and release some weird lizard-riding cavalry. (i think thats a thing, but not sure about the source).
Oh, and why the heck would anyone want to use Rough Riders?
Marauder Horsemen, Pistoliers/Outriders, Chaos Knights, Ellyrion Reavers(in the Spire of Dawn set but still), Dragonblades, Dark Riders/Doomfire Warlocks...
There's horses around. They haven't gotten "updated rulebooks" yet but they are far from crappy rules. Dark Riders alone make the Scourge Privateers viable.
vonjankmon wrote: Also as to Rough Riders keep in mind that GW's release strategy is likely going to be very different going forward than it was in the past. Before it was Codex and then a ton of new models.
Now though they will have released all of the codexes in a short period of time. So they will probably do smaller individual unit releases going forward, which would allow them to release new Rough Riders with rules included or in PDF format.
Or they could have just shown some conversions and listed the models needed - like they already did for the stupid Grandmaster/Baby carrier for Grey Knights or inf act the Guard regiments in the very same book....
BrookM wrote: Rough Riders have the <REGIMENT> keyword, so rejoice.
It's worth mentioning that they have neither the INFANTRY nor the VEHICLE keywords, which means that a lot of the doctrines technically won't affect them. In fact, the only doctrine I can think of that affects them would be the Vostroyan doctrine, which is pretty nice if you get them plasmaguns.
Fayric wrote: GW hate horses.
Just look at AoS -any unit riding horses are either not sold anymore, not included in updated rulebooks or get such crappy rules no one can include them in a serious game.
Instead you get IP protected demigryphs, bird cavalry, monster pigs, dragondogs etc.
The only hope Rough Riders have is if GW do a specific guard codex and release some weird lizard-riding cavalry. (i think thats a thing, but not sure about the source).
Oh, and why the heck would anyone want to use Rough Riders?
Since there was no word today from GW, I assume no new preorder this week for codex on 14th? With Shadespire being 21st, that would mean no new codex until 28th.... disappointing.
bullyboy wrote: Since there was no word today from GW, I assume no new preorder this week for codex on 14th? With Shadespire being 21st, that would mean no new codex until 28th.... disappointing.
They let us know on Sunday what's going on preorder on Saturday. The preorders for the 7th can be found here:
Fayric wrote: GW hate horses.
Just look at AoS -any unit riding horses are either not sold anymore, not included in updated rulebooks or get such crappy rules no one can include them in a serious game.
Instead you get IP protected demigryphs, bird cavalry, monster pigs, dragondogs etc.
The only hope Rough Riders have is if GW do a specific guard codex and release some weird lizard-riding cavalry. (i think thats a thing, but not sure about the source).
Oh, and why the heck would anyone want to use Rough Riders?
They’re pretty cool looking. Not the Attillans, cavalry in general.
Fayric wrote: GW hate horses.
Just look at AoS -any unit riding horses are either not sold anymore, not included in updated rulebooks or get such crappy rules no one can include them in a serious game.
Instead you get IP protected demigryphs, bird cavalry, monster pigs, dragondogs etc.
The only hope Rough Riders have is if GW do a specific guard codex and release some weird lizard-riding cavalry. (i think thats a thing, but not sure about the source).
Oh, and why the heck would anyone want to use Rough Riders?
If I could give them lasrifles instead of Hunting Spears and use them a Dragoons/American Cavalry I would make an army with them. 1870s US Cav themed IG Rough Riders? Yes please.
Therion wrote: Hyperbole nonsense about Guard winning it all.
Try disallowing Elysian bs and Earthshaker Carriages, then comp you can only take max 3 detachments and max 3 of the same unit, and all of a sudden the most absurd stuff is out.
Max 3? Gee. You would kill my orks(4+ ork boyz common) and IG(who has heard IG infantry company without at least 4 squads of infantry? 3 is pretty normal for a platoon...). Generally any horde type of army would be in trouble. Especially ones with limited troop choices. Tyranids would likely be less than happy.
Therion wrote: Hyperbole nonsense about Guard winning it all.
Try disallowing Elysian bs and Earthshaker Carriages, then comp you can only take max 3 detachments and max 3 of the same unit, and all of a sudden the most absurd stuff is out.
Max 3? Gee. You would kill my orks(4+ ork boyz common) and IG(who has heard IG infantry company without at least 4 squads of infantry? 3 is pretty normal for a platoon...). Generally any horde type of army would be in trouble. Especially ones with limited troop choices. Tyranids would likely be less than happy.
Yeah, that limit would break my list even at just 1000 points with infantry squads and heavy weapon squads, which I've never heard anyone muster a credible complaint against. Doesn't scale and it would actually force me to take conscripts so that I could still have the troop presence I need.
* Some potential titles include:
– The Don’ts and Don’ts of Dealing with Mutants
– The Imperial Cult and the Art of Chainsword Maintenance
– Never Shake Hands With an Electro-Priest, And Other Advice For Fighting With The Adeptus Mechanicus
I love Regimental Standard, their passive-aggresive and totally incorrect take to the community is priceless, like their article about how the Lasgun can kill Landraiders
vonjankmon wrote: Also as to Rough Riders keep in mind that GW's release strategy is likely going to be very different going forward than it was in the past. Before it was Codex and then a ton of new models.
Now though they will have released all of the codexes in a short period of time. So they will probably do smaller individual unit releases going forward, which would allow them to release new Rough Riders with rules included or in PDF format.
That is what people said about AoS, but that isn't what happened. They've focused solely on small clumps of new armies or re-releasing old models as is (but with round bases!)
Galas wrote: I love Regimental Standard, their passive-aggresive and totally incorrect take to the community is priceless, like their article about how the Lasgun can kill Landraiders
This stuff is gameplay based?
I thought it was just taking 40k back to it's stupid, horrifically funny origins.
Galas wrote: I love Regimental Standard, their passive-aggresive and totally incorrect take to the community is priceless, like their article about how the Lasgun can kill Landraiders
This stuff is gameplay based?
I thought it was just taking 40k back to it's stupid, horrifically funny origins.
It's both. A lot of the "strategic/tactical" articles have tongue-in-cheek basis in internet netlisting and hyperbole via the most common social media and forum posts.
It used to be more from the standpoint of a guardsmen in the actual imperium universe. Now it's more about "if players were guardsmen" so the articles are almost entirely out of universe narrating.
The imperium wouldn't give this information to random guardsmen. Knowing evil is punishable by death, after all. Even knowing that there is something you aren't supposed to know is heresy. However, the fluff is more comical now and less utterly hopeless grimdark (which is a shame)
So when are we gonna make GW do an FAQ to affect Calvary with these rules?
It isn't even just for the Guard codex, stupidly good as it is. It's a matter of principle the models that are Calvary type be affected. Same with Chaos Marines and the Legion traits. If we don't speak up, we encourage the phasing out.
Galas wrote: I love Regimental Standard, their passive-aggresive and totally incorrect take to the community is priceless, like their article about how the Lasgun can kill Landraiders
You mean people weren't bitching about how the new damage table makes it totally possible and viable to just chip heavy tanks to death with small arms, provided you take no damage and have several turns to do so? I must have been misreading posts here then.
Played with the new codex. Internal balance is good as a lot of the units become good competitive considerations after the adjustment.
The strong outliers for imperium armies are still the same ones: conscripts, basilisks, psykers, scions and commisars.
I think you'd be seeing more IG lists and more of units like Plasma executioners (now somewhat efficient), Tank commanders (now can self order), and bullgryns (a really good frontline unit)
Calvhalla wrote: Played with the new codex. Internal balance is good as a lot of the units become good competitive considerations after the adjustment.
The strong outliers for imperium armies are still the same ones: conscripts, basilisks, psykers, scions and commisars.
I think you'd be seeing more IG lists and more of units like Plasma executioners (now somewhat efficient), Tank commanders (now can self order), and bullgryns (a really good frontline unit)
Do you know if Crusaders got the AM keyword so they can ride in chimeras?
Yeah crusaders in a Valkyrie seem fun. Especially if Catachan ones are S4! Aren't they a minimum # small unit too? So I could fit 3 Bullgryn and 2 crusaders in it? Maybe a priest or Psyker too
I was just looking through my old 3rd edition codexes and I noticed that GWs building and painting skills are so much better now. It's hilarious. The hobby sections in the Catachan and 3rd edition codex are cool though. I like referencing them for painting inspiration. With Russes actually being viable I think I'm going to repaint mine since they're garbage from me painting them when I was like 12.
Got my codex + datacards (surprised they didn't bump the price on the latter, as it's twice as thick as the other decks released to date!) and while a lot of the art is regurgitated, the regimental showcase has new art! They've also dug out some of the older art pieces that were used in the White Dwarf years ago, like this gem and the gallery section shows some actual conversions, not to mention a whole patrol detachment of those highborn ponces all built up, complete with custom heavy weapon carriages (seen this regiment before, Black Gobbo maybe?).
The big regiments all get a page of their own with a regiment of renown and some quick fluff, some of which are fun little easter eggs or nods to previous fluff or army books (even a reference to the old "Oops! Sorry sir.." special rule of the Catachans! ).
Other regiments mentioned, complete with custom art are:
- Armageddon Ork Hunters
- Athonian Tunnel Rats
- Miasman Redcowls (recruited from space stations orbiting a gas giant that produces something that makes their flamers spout stinking green flames, hence the rebreathers)
- Mordian Iron Guard (Mordians have been bumped down in importance and reduced to minor status)
- Tanith First and Only (ugh)
- Savlar Chem Dogs
- Ventrillian Nobles (Rich folk who donate their wealth to the Imperium so they can fight for adventure and glory)
- Indigan Prefects (Glorified game keepers tasked with keeping escaped "zoo" critters in check on their home world, have a reputation for being expert big game hunters)
- Mordant Acid-Dogs
- Faeburn Vanquishers
- Truskan Snowhounds
- Vresh Grenadiers
Timeline is not as extensive as others, as it mostly focuses on what the Imperial Guard was up to post schism, which is sad as they've reduced the Macharian Crusade to nothing but a footnote.
Haven't read through all the fluff yet, but it has a better tone than the previous book, which makes them feel less like the morons of the setting and a bit more in line with the badasses from the novels.
BrookM wrote: Got my codex + datacards (surprised they didn't bump the price on the latter, as it's twice as thick as the other decks released to date!) and while a lot of the art is regurgitated, the regimental showcase has new art! They've also dug out some of the older art pieces that were used in the White Dwarf years ago, like this gem and the gallery section shows some actual conversions, not to mention a whole patrol detachment of those highborn ponces all built up, complete with custom heavy weapon carriages (seen this regiment before, Black Gobbo maybe?).
The big regiments all get a page of their own with a regiment of renown and some quick fluff, some of which are fun little easter eggs or nods to previous fluff or army books (even a reference to the old "Oops! Sorry sir.." special rule of the Catachans! ).
Other regiments mentioned, complete with custom art are:
- Armageddon Ork Hunters
- Athonian Tunnel Rats
- Miasman Redcowls (recruited from space stations orbiting a gas giant that produces something that makes their flamers spout stinking green flames, hence the rebreathers)
- Mordian Iron Guard (Mordians have been bumped down in importance and reduced to minor status)
- Tanith First and Only (ugh)
- Savlar Chem Dogs
- Ventrillian Nobles (Rich folk who donate their wealth to the Imperium so they can fight for adventure and glory)
- Indigan Prefects (Glorified game keepers tasked with keeping escaped "zoo" critters in check on their home world, have a reputation for being expert big game hunters)
- Mordant Acid-Dogs
- Faeburn Vanquishers
- Truskan Snowhounds
- Vresh Grenadiers
Timeline is not as extensive as others, as it mostly focuses on what the Imperial Guard was up to post schism, which is sad as they've reduced the Macharian Crusade to nothing but a footnote.
Haven't read through all the fluff yet, but it has a better tone than the previous book, which makes them feel less like the morons of the setting and a bit more in line with the badasses from the novels.
That list of regiments sounds great. More regiments people will convert from the tiniest mention rock.
Monster hunters remind me of the blurb about using Ogryn rules to represent exotic domesticated alien felines and combat beasts etc. and of course the Rough Riders article with Catachans on Cold Ones. Maybe some Praetoeians on the Stormcast chicken mounts to make some sort of hybrid ostrich-monstrous cav
Edit:
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah crusaders in a Valkyrie seem fun. Especially if Catachan ones are S4! Aren't they a minimum # small unit too? So I could fit 3 Bullgryn and 2 crusaders in it? Maybe a priest or Psyker too
I was just looking through my old 3rd edition codexes and I noticed that GWs building and painting skills are so much better now. It's hilarious. The hobby sections in the Catachan and 3rd edition codex are cool though. I like referencing them for painting inspiration. With Russes actually being viable I think I'm going to repaint mine since they're garbage from me painting them when I was like 12.
My Russ and Basilisk suffered the same fate from my own younger self at that age What easily available (in Germany) substance would work for stripping a whole TANK?!
Ok guys, I used to play an armored company, using a FW list.
I was waiting for the codex.
Now it is here, is it still viable to play an armored company using this codex ?
How many LR could you put in a list (approximatively) ?
Thanks !
BrookM wrote: Got my codex + datacards (surprised they didn't bump the price on the latter, as it's twice as thick as the other decks released to date!) and while a lot of the art is regurgitated, the regimental showcase has new art! They've also dug out some of the older art pieces that were used in the White Dwarf years ago, like this gem and the gallery section shows some actual conversions, not to mention a whole patrol detachment of those highborn ponces all built up, complete with custom heavy weapon carriages (seen this regiment before, Black Gobbo maybe?).
The big regiments all get a page of their own with a regiment of renown and some quick fluff, some of which are fun little easter eggs or nods to previous fluff or army books (even a reference to the old "Oops! Sorry sir.." special rule of the Catachans! ).
Other regiments mentioned, complete with custom art are:
- Armageddon Ork Hunters
- Athonian Tunnel Rats
- Miasman Redcowls (recruited from space stations orbiting a gas giant that produces something that makes their flamers spout stinking green flames, hence the rebreathers)
- Mordian Iron Guard (Mordians have been bumped down in importance and reduced to minor status)
- Tanith First and Only (ugh)
- Savlar Chem Dogs
- Ventrillian Nobles (Rich folk who donate their wealth to the Imperium so they can fight for adventure and glory)
- Indigan Prefects (Glorified game keepers tasked with keeping escaped "zoo" critters in check on their home world, have a reputation for being expert big game hunters)
- Mordant Acid-Dogs
- Faeburn Vanquishers
- Truskan Snowhounds
- Vresh Grenadiers
Timeline is not as extensive as others, as it mostly focuses on what the Imperial Guard was up to post schism, which is sad as they've reduced the Macharian Crusade to nothing but a footnote.
Haven't read through all the fluff yet, but it has a better tone than the previous book, which makes them feel less like the morons of the setting and a bit more in line with the badasses from the novels.
Why the (ugh) for Tanith 1st and Only?
Unsure what his ugh is for but to be honest tanith is 1 regiment and has been through several crusades if they have been replenished they would have been merged with other groups and would hardly be tanith anymore. It's a cool story but hardly makes them sustainable especially in this 1000 year timeline since tanith regiment was founded and up until he schism.
Calvhalla wrote: Played with the new codex. Internal balance is good as a lot of the units become good competitive considerations after the adjustment.
The strong outliers for imperium armies are still the same ones: conscripts, basilisks, psykers, scions and commisars.
I think you'd be seeing more IG lists and more of units like Plasma executioners (now somewhat efficient), Tank commanders (now can self order), and bullgryns (a really good frontline unit)
Do you know if Crusaders got the AM keyword so they can ride in chimeras?
They got the AM keyword and Acts of Faith as well.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: This thread has added too many pages since I last checked it, so are we not expecting new models in this release, just the codex?
godardc wrote: Ok guys, I used to play an armored company, using a FW list.
I was waiting for the codex.
Now it is here, is it still viable to play an armored company using this codex ?
How many LR could you put in a list (approximatively) ?
Thanks !
You certainly can play an Armored Company. Use the Tank Commander and the spearhead detachment to build it. Any LRs in the spearhead would have "Defenders of Humanity" (objective secured) as well.
re: Tanith - this codex is firmly planted in the post time skip setting, the Tanith do not belong here as they fought many, many centuries before all of this. Mind, this is my opinion.
re: Mordians - these guys are the only big-name regiment with special rules to not get a full page of fluff and regimental examples, hence my remark of them being bumped down.
I understand that the original Tanith canonically survived the campaign and retook (and were promptly given settlement rights to) their original home world which was now a barren waste denuded of its former forests. Assuming they managed to survive the intervening years the banner of the glorious first could well have been taken up again in the wake of the great rift…
Seriously though, regiment names and banners are regularly recycled by the Guard, just like lasguns and uniforms are. Probably no-one around "today" remembers why the original Tanith First took the sobriquet "and Only" and have assumed it was some sort of pithy comment on their elite status that doesn’t translate properly.
Not sure if mentioned elsewhere, but there are also vehicle upgrades in the codex now, not a lot and only accessible to the Leman Russ and any vehicle based on the Chimera chassis:
BrookM wrote: Not sure if mentioned elsewhere, but there are also vehicle upgrades in the codex now, not a lot and only accessible to the Leman Russ and any vehicle based on the Chimera chassis:
- Augur Array
- Dozer Blades
- Track Guards
First one gives a single reroll to hit per game, second gives +1 to hit when you charged. and the third always lets you use the highest movement speed in your profile regardless of damage. In case anyone was wondering.
I thought I read somewhere that GW was going to make a FAQ for Genestealer Cult to use the Astra Militarium codex. Has that happened, or will it happen or was it someone just herd from someone?
Davor wrote: I thought I read somewhere that GW was going to make a FAQ for Genestealer Cult to use the Astra Militarium codex. Has that happened, or will it happen or was it someone just herd from someone?
Why wouldn't they be able to? I don't have the book in front of me, but it clearly says that GSC can use Astra Militarum units.
So 0<1/2 of his M value.
Thanks GW for teaching us basic mathemathics.
Pages 90 and 101 – Commissar Yarrick, Lord Commissar
and Commissar, Summary Execution
Change to read:
‘Summary Execution: The first time an Astra
Militarum unit fails a Morale test during the Morale
phase whilst it is within 6" of any friendly Commissars,
one model of your choice in that unit is slain and the
Morale test is re-rolled (do not include this slain model
when re-rolling the Morale test).
Galas wrote: So 0<1/2 of his M value. Thanks GW for teaching us basic mathemathics.
Unfortunately it needed to be done because there are people who were arguing that the "moved" part means you have to move...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote: Thanks for the link OrlandotheTechnicloured. I was about to ask when the FAQ was coming out for Genestealer Cult since I thought it would be separate.
Nope!
Here it is for those who don't want to page through the GW bit
BROOD BROTHERS Q: Can an Astra Militarum Detachment that is included in an army alongside a Genestealer Cults Detachment using the Brood Brothers rule gain a Regimental Doctrine, and can the units in such a Detachment use any of the regiment-specific Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Orders, Relics, etc.? A: No, Brood Brothers Detachments cannot use any regiment-specific rules. Note that when included in an army alongside a Genestealer Cults Detachment, all Astra Militarum units should replace their <Regiment>keyword with Brood Brothers in every instance on their datasheets. Full rules for using Brood Brothers detachments will be described in Codex: Genestealer Cults. Q: Can an Astra Militarum Detachment that is included in an army alongside a Genestealer CultsDetachment using the Brood Brothers rule include any Astra Militarum named characters? A: No.
Galas wrote:So 0<1/2 of his M value. Thanks GW for teaching us basic mathemathics.
Pages 90 and 101 – Commissar Yarrick, Lord Commissar and Commissar, Summary Execution Change to read: ‘Summary Execution: The first time an Astra Militarum unit fails a Morale test during the Morale phase whilst it is within 6" of any friendly Commissars, one model of your choice in that unit is slain and the Morale test is re-rolled (do not include this slain model when re-rolling the Morale test).
Actually, if you have a ton of conscripts, just run them bubbled around a Valhallan officer with the pistol.
The Valhallan relic, iirc, is unchanged, but your regiment has to be valhallan now if you want to spam conscripts.
Anyone notice that commissars are actually worse than taking no commissars now?
Like, if you lose more than 7 conscripts, you're probably just hurting yourself by taking them, and Infantry basically don't need them for all the +1 leadership buffs tucked into the codex.
daedalus wrote: Anyone notice that commissars are actually worse than taking no commissars now?
Like, if you lose more than 7 conscripts, you're probably just hurting yourself by taking them, and Infantry basically don't need them for all the +1 leadership buffs tucked into the codex.
Yeah imho commissars are gone, save perhaps in other unrelated uses (leveraging that sweet sweet 2+ to hit on the Lord Commissar).
This doesn't bode well for future FAQs. As noted by daedalus, if you're autofauling morale, commissars stand a good chance now to worsen your losses -- unless I'm missing something, that's not an optional reroll, let alone an optional blam.
It also doesn't speak well to their use (or lack thereof) of spreadsheets and calculators ... a quick bit of napkin math suggests that the new summary execution is basically a wash.
I guess the Ld 9 bubble is still a thing? That's nontrivial, at least.
Calvhalla wrote: Played with the new codex. Internal balance is good as a lot of the units become good competitive considerations after the adjustment.
The strong outliers for imperium armies are still the same ones: conscripts, basilisks, psykers, scions and commisars.
I think you'd be seeing more IG lists and more of units like Plasma executioners (now somewhat efficient), Tank commanders (now can self order), and bullgryns (a really good frontline unit)
Do you know if Crusaders got the AM keyword so they can ride in chimeras?
They got the AM keyword and Acts of Faith as well.
They do not have the regiment keyword so no str 4 crusaders.
As this codex has been out for quite a while now, this is no longer news or rumors. Please take these conversations to the appropriate 40k forum instead, thanks!
)
They've also dug out some of the older art pieces that were used in the White Dwarf years ago, like 
